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Much like the 22-odd pages of retardation that was the Muties-are-awesome thread, I struggle to believe that people aren't honestly trolling when I hear crap like this. Yes, if peaple want to use the mecha-dragon, they can (and should!), but there's a reason why you shouldn't be bothering with the Hades, and that reason is the Baleflamer.

You want AA? D3 Vector strikes on rear armour at Str7 AP2 ignores cover is better than 4x BS3 shots against front/side that don't ignore cover, especially when you can then also fire a baleflamer into something else on the other side of your target.

You want side shots on AV11 vehicles? Vector strike is giving you 2/3rds of the same damage by hitting rear 10 instead and ignoring cover while having a 1/6th chance to explode while putting the baleflamer into another vehicle.

Unless you're playing nothing but hammer and anvil or going first against a refused flank every game then I'm not sure how your FF is out of range. 36" + 6" move is a fair distance.

While a Hadesdrake is going to be ignored for certain and can possibly grab linebreaker and control/contest an objective by going into hover, a FF will happily control an objective all game in your own DZ too, while a Baledrake can hover just as well as a Hadesdrake (provided it doesn't get targetted since it's actually dangerous).

As for your FF doing poorly and suffering critical existance failure every game, I'm not sure what to tell you, other than your opponents probably think it's dangerous enough to target early and repeatedly while they don't give two hoots about your Hadesdrake. Mine (FF) probably lives about 50% of my games and despite occassional boughts of me not being able to roll dice and missing with all 8 shots, he'll occassionally produce a miracle too and drop a Leviathan or Land Raider in 1 round or just solidly plink away at vehicular targets of opportunity all game or force AV12/13 skimmers to jink on threat of not rolling like a chump. A Hadesdrake is never going to manage those things (other than missing 8 shots in a row) with half the shots and being off the board for 1-3 turns.

As for the hades getting rear armour, unless your opponent is criminally stupid, you're going to struggle to get more than 1, maybe 2 rear armour shots a game. Yes, the remainder are likely to be side armour which is often better than front, but

"But muh mobility!" Again, a Baledrake can do just the same, while turbo-boosting bikers or rhinos can do a pretty passable immitation for a fraction of the points.

I honestly can't think of a single situation when I could think to myself that I was glad I took a Hadesdrake. While "Making its points back" is probably not the correct phrasing these days, "being worth its points" means much the same thing most of the time and is much more apt. The Hadesdrake just flat out isn't worth 170 points. Hell, I doubt I'd consider it at 140-150 points. It's a bad buy and anyone would be better served by buying almost anything else in the book for those points instead of a hadesdrake and that's without even considering if FW is legal accepted in your meta where the fire raptor makes a Hadesdrake look like even more of a joke than it already is. Polite reminder - The Hadesdrake is a bad buy in the base CSM 'dex. That's a special level of fail reserved for possessed, muties and thousand sons there, but there's no legion rules for heldrakes to try and save them from the trash-tier dumpster fire like the other units.

I assure you it's not trolling. It's the reality of playing on dense urban boards with significant LOS blocking terrain and narrow streets. As I said before I'm not saying this is for everyone, I'm saying this is the one exception to the rule in response to the insistence that there isn't one.

I like the Forgefiend and I like baleflamer Heldrakes... in general I will take them over the hades Heldrake, I just like to compliment those two with a hades Heldrake. As you point out the Forgefiend will be plinking and relying on luck to take out different units. In general this leaves a unit with only a few remaining hull points. Using the hades Heldrake allows me to mop up and the Forgefiend to move on to other targets, rather than wasting its few turns of life over-killing a vehicle.

You know what compliments a Baledrake and Forgefiend better? Another one one those units! Remember the math I showed for how much better the Forgefiend handles armor? Now you get double that!
I also love you say that the Forgefiend is relying on luck when the Heldrake won't be out until T2 earliest and has less shots to work with. Unbelievable. Seriously. Keep this trash out of this thread please so we can discuss the good things in the codex.

 Drasius wrote:
*snip*

but there's no legion rules for heldrakes to try and save them from the trash-tier dumpster fire like the other units.

I think, taken as an auxiliary choice, they may get some? I'm building a Vectorium - I think they'll get the 18" cloud of flies (stealth) bonus?

So +1 to Jink

Please dont turn this into another "Mutilators are awesome" thread. I cant take it. I love the Heldrake but i dont have one anymore since its so hard to transport.

Let's keep it polite folks.

And by folks, I mean Drasius.

zerosignal wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
*snip*

but there's no legion rules for heldrakes to try and save them from the trash-tier dumpster fire like the other units.

I think, taken as an auxiliary choice, they may get some? I'm building a Vectorium - I think they'll get the 18" cloud of flies (stealth) bonus?

So +1 to Jink

And when you are finally allowed Blight Drones they already have shrouded, meaning they'll be better off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also don't forget that you're taking the Forgefiends in the Warpack, meaning infinite Daemonforge uses.

I glanced over into the new Eldar tactica thread and noticed something very similar happening to their lists that I saw happening to my World Eater lists: a newfound emphasis on HQs. This seems to be a pattern happening with every new book where it is beneficial to take more than the previously normal amount of HQs in your army. I've definitely been seeing that as I take upwards of 4 HQs in my World Eater lists. Has anyone been seeing the same thing in their new lists?

Our HQ selection has always been alright outside the Apostle, so it doesn't surprise me.

On that note: I'm currently taking two juggerlords, one termi lord, and one deamon prince in my World Eaters list. The issue I'm seeing is my Deamon Prince dies almost instantly to shooting even when holding the Glaive of FnP. While he is an amazingly powerful beatstick in his own right, he's a bullet magnet and he gets focused ASAP. It's gotten to the point where I'm going to drop him for a bike lord or termi lord or something else because he just doesn't last long at all. Anyone else seeing something similar?

 andysonic1 wrote:
On that note: I'm currently taking two juggerlords, one termi lord, and one deamon prince in my World Eaters list. The issue I'm seeing is my Deamon Prince dies almost instantly to shooting even when holding the Glaive of FnP. While he is an amazingly powerful beatstick in his own right, he's a bullet magnet and he gets focused ASAP. It's gotten to the point where I'm going to drop him for a bike lord or termi lord or something else because he just doesn't last long at all. Anyone else seeing something similar?

Don't leave him exposed? Enough screening means they're either going to face that or a Juggerlord.

andysonic1 wrote:I glanced over into the new Eldar tactica thread and noticed something very similar happening to their lists that I saw happening to my World Eater lists: a newfound emphasis on HQs. This seems to be a pattern happening with every new book where it is beneficial to take more than the previously normal amount of HQs in your army. I've definitely been seeing that as I take upwards of 4 HQs in my World Eater lists. Has anyone been seeing the same thing in their new lists?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Our HQ selection has always been alright outside the Apostle, so it doesn't surprise me.

I agree with Slayer-Fan123, We have traditionally been HQ heavy for our 6th ed book since it's one of the few slots where we have actual choices to be made. On top of that, things like Eldar HQ's traditioanlly act as force multipliers and while handing out giude and prescience to your entire army is nice, sometimes they're going to want +/-1 to reserves with an autarch as well, so it makes sense to be taking 2-3 farseers (who're criminally undercosted like the rest of their dex) for psychic support and to deny invis or other key power as well as a secondary HQ like an Autarch.

andysonic1 wrote:On that note: I'm currently taking two juggerlords, one termi lord, and one deamon prince in my World Eaters list. The issue I'm seeing is my Deamon Prince dies almost instantly to shooting even when holding the Glaive of FnP. While he is an amazingly powerful beatstick in his own right, he's a bullet magnet and he gets focused ASAP. It's gotten to the point where I'm going to drop him for a bike lord or termi lord or something else because he just doesn't last long at all. Anyone else seeing something similar?

At a guess, not only because a large portion of your other available targets are locked in combat (meaning there's less of an issue of target priority), but DP's, especially khorne ones with no psychic powers to protect them, have always been 4 marine bikers strapped together which have never been that hard to kill, doubly so considering their high points cost. I'd probably suggest that you've had a pretty good run with him so far as well, to the point where it could just be a temporary thing as he's simply made the top of your opponents priority list. You'd see the same thing with any T5 4W model that's stuck on its own. When was the last time you saw a melee Hive Tyrant that wasn't embedded in a skytyrant Swarm? And he's T6 AND less points than a combat DP AND can get shrouded assured T1 AND is still ML2.

My list from last nights game for context:

Chaos Warband

- Axe of Blind Juggerlord

- 5 Termies, LCs

- 5 Bikes, meltas

- Helbrute, Rift

- 2 10 man CSM units, Meltas, Rhinos

Aux

- Spawn x5

Lords

- Glaive Deamon Prince

- Gorefather Juggerlord

- Burning Blood Termi Lord

ITC mission was Purge the Alien + 3 objectives against Grey Knights with Draigo Paladin Star. He got first turn and I had to smash through three Dreadknights that wouldn't die before dealing with Razorbacks and a Land Raider. I lost 7 to 6 due to him winning Purge the Alien because his Knights kept punching my units to death. He brought one Assassin sniper that has killed my Deamon Prince turn one every single game without fail. Granted we play on a table that doesn't grant me a lot of cover for the giant model so there's never much I can do about it.

Against other lists I do pretty great and mulch through nearly everything. Grey Knights are just my bane it seems. Still it's made me reconsider the Deamon Prince and mobile Termie unit.

 andysonic1 wrote:
On that note: I'm currently taking two juggerlords, one termi lord, and one deamon prince in my World Eaters list. The issue I'm seeing is my Deamon Prince dies almost instantly to shooting even when holding the Glaive of FnP. While he is an amazingly powerful beatstick in his own right, he's a bullet magnet and he gets focused ASAP. It's gotten to the point where I'm going to drop him for a bike lord or termi lord or something else because he just doesn't last long at all. Anyone else seeing something similar?

how do you deploy him? i'v had luck recently avoiding the urge to start on the ground and flying him forwards or even deep striking might be an option. Better fighting from turn 3/4 than dieing turn 2

How is a Vindicare killing a five wound model in a single turn?

 Latro_ wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
On that note: I'm currently taking two juggerlords, one termi lord, and one deamon prince in my World Eaters list. The issue I'm seeing is my Deamon Prince dies almost instantly to shooting even when holding the Glaive of FnP. While he is an amazingly powerful beatstick in his own right, he's a bullet magnet and he gets focused ASAP. It's gotten to the point where I'm going to drop him for a bike lord or termi lord or something else because he just doesn't last long at all. Anyone else seeing something similar?

how do you deploy him? i'v had luck recently avoiding the urge to start on the ground and flying him forwards or even deep striking might be an option. Better fighting from turn 3/4 than dieing turn 2

That's where my mind is going with it. I detest deep striking with a passion but it may be the only way to avoid death. That or always ensure there is line of sight blocking terrain I can get behind, which ITC tells you to do anyways.

 lindsay40k wrote:
How is a Vindicare killing a five wound model in a single turn?

Four wound T5 model, Strength 10 shot. I fail my 4+ jink save and die to Instant Death due to being doubled out.

The Str10 Vindicare shot only counts as such against vehicles buddy. Against any other target, it is a sniper round that deals D3 wounds

I heard they've been nerfed and turbo-penetrator rounds just do D3 damage against targets with wounds (though I also heard both versions of their rules are allowed)

andysonic1 wrote:Four wound T5 model, Strength 10 shot. I fail my 4+ jink save and die to Instant Death due to being doubled out.

andysonic1 wrote:

Fairly sure a Vindicare ignores cover anyway, so you'd be relying on your 5++, but yeah, you're both playing that wrong.

He's gunna get a whoopin next we play.

Never trust a corpse-lover

 Drasius wrote:


You want AA? D3 Vector strikes on rear armour at Str7 AP2 ignores cover is better than 4x BS3 shots against front/side that don't ignore cover, especially when you can then also fire a baleflamer into something else on the other side of your target.

You want side shots on AV11 vehicles? Vector strike is giving you 2/3rds of the same damage by hitting rear 10 instead and ignoring cover while having a 1/6th chance to explode while putting the baleflamer into another vehicle. .

Vector Strikes are Side Armor, not Rear.

I've once won a game cause of mutilator scoring "Scour the skies".

 koooaei wrote:
I've once won a game cause of mutilator scoring "Scour the skies".

how did you manage that, did you pick the model up and lob it at his flyer?

 Latro_ wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I've once won a game cause of mutilator scoring "Scour the skies".

how did you manage that, did you pick the model up and lob it at his flyer?

He had to land a stormraven at one point.

Fun one:

Played a non-competitve guy at local club last week and he was running a favoured of chaos formation mark of nurgle, foot DP, 3 units of 10 possessed footslogging!.

I was running my mech deathguard and ego aside i wasn't gonna loose the game but played it fun so charged at them to make the game entertaining for both of us.

In CC they are actually rather good!
S5 T5 2 attacks fearless, fleet he obv had 5++ and 5+ fnp. With the DP close they have 3 attacks base (and back up to I4), AP3 and re-rolling to wound.

They ended up killing my DP, all my plague marines and a few tanks! (was ahead 7-8pts by then so let him run wild).

Now the way he ran them is obv not optimised so you have to take this formation, how do you run it?

I was thinking:
Keep the nurgle theme
DP, wings, armour, beatstick atretfact, maybe lvl1-lvl2
5-7 possessed, MoN, rhino
5-7 possessed, MoN, rhino
5-7 possessed, MoN, rhino

first turn rhino 6" jump out 6" and run (with the re-roll)
OT the rhinos to the flanks etc to block LoS
hope they survive
charge the next turn (maybe )

Well with the I4 they will still want grenades ie you still pretty much need spartans or kharybdis claws ie it becomes way too expensive to be viable. Fnp helps but I don't think it's enough to be standing around in the open. Not for what they cost.
So you'd still need dread claws at the very least to get into assault without being shot at or a land raider, but again, too expensive since all the units would need something like that.

My philosophy is that if you want to run possessed:
1. counts as wulfen
2. crimson slaughterer
3. world eaters decurion

Even in Butcherhorde you're running into the "CSM just do it better" problem. A unit of 10 CSM are going to survive longer than 5 Possessed regardless of 5++, plus they are going to bring Meltas / Flamers / Plasma to bare PLUS the humble pistol. THey may deal less damage in close combat, but at least they'll get there.