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I'm building an Iron Warriors force but fancy adding a 2nd legion to run with them at times.

What would the best ally legion be to complement them?

Hi guys. I'm running a Death guard vectorium warband. I almost always use a lord on bike with/or a sorcerer on bike, in a unit with spawn or bikes. I've got 10 nurgle bikers and 5 nurgle spawn.

I'm still pretty new to playing with a sorcerer, do you have any tips on how i should kit out my sorcerer and how i should play him? What powers should i roll on, and how to utilize them?

@loopstah it depends my iron warriors were an assualt siege force so they had lots of berzerkers from the world eaters that act as mercenaries. But I also had another company that was all about shooting and they had deathguard allies and i considered them as Iron warriors because of their bionics. Those two you can really go for but you can also do emperors children for some shooting.

@Killerpenguin I would leave him unmarked which allows him to join any unit. I also recommend going to ML3 and give him a spell familiar. I personally like to put him in a bike with a force axe. I think force swords are pretty useless and Force staves lack the ap. For your powers, it really depends but with the new psychic powers from traitor legions i would definitely go for the one where you can reroll failed saves its better than all the other disciplines, Other disciplines would be telepethy for invis and shrouding + psychic shriek and biomancy for that beautiful endurance (all of which are competitve and fluffy for nurgle) But remember you will need some extra psychic dice from somwhere else 3 dice + winds of the warp isnt enough to put out 3 powers in one phase s i suggest maybe ally daemons or put in another sorcerer. Have fun!

IRON WITHIN IRON WITHOUT

@-v10mega It's true that a Marked character has restrictions on what units they join, but for a Death Guard army this is a double nonconcern - the model is obliged to take MoN, and is not going to have any Slaaneshi, Khornate or Tzeentchian allies to want to join.

@killerpenguin I second ML3 and spell familiar, do not try Daemonology with him as it will kill him on turn 2. He is obliged to take at least one Nurgle power, so if you take powers from another discipline bear in mind you'll not get its Primaris for free. Biomancy is pretty good - solid synergy with him being in a mobile attack unit. Likewise Sinistrum. If you do take one of these, there's things to be said for not only taking the Force Axe but also replacing his pistol with a Power Sword or Lance - this will enable him to benefit from the I boost from Warp Speed or strike in initiative with Iron Arm, and to benefit from both with Diabolic Strength.

@ Loopstah An Allied Formation consisting of a Word Bearers Sorceror with Palanquin & Scripts of Erebus and a blob of Cultists can be interesting, easily able to summon a bunch of Horrors on the first turn and then pump out a unit of Flesh Hounds, Plaguebearers, Flamers or Seekers every other turn. What looks like a token holding force on setup can become a solid flank able to adapt to a range of threats.

He can ally a non-marked sorcerer ^^^
Word Bearers are not forced to take a mark and therefore can join Death guard units. Same goes with any unmarked sorcerer from other legions. His un marked sorcerer allows him to join death guard units without having to roll on the nurgle powers which are not optimal

 killerpenguin wrote:
I'm still pretty new to playing with a sorcerer, do you have any tips on how i should kit out my sorcerer and how i should play him? What powers should i roll on, and how to utilize them?

ML3 and a spell familiar is virtually mandatory, Sigil is handy is you expect him to get into CC often or if you face a bunch of ignores cover ap1/2/3 guns. Swords are trash, Staves can be very useful, especially when rolling biomancy because Iron Arm makes you AP2 and you're still swinging at initiative while warp speed gives you the volume of attacks to break through most armour saves and you're now I7. Better when you get both of them though. Axes are generally the answer when not taking Bio IMHO, but striking last can often mandate the purchase of a sigil to ensure you survive long enough to get your attacks in. If you're running a vectorium, then you've got no choice but to take MoN, but otherwise, being on a bike is usually sufficient to avoid being ID'ed and the boosted mobility and jink means that you're almost always better off taking the bike anyway.

As for powers, that's a long and complicate answer to a common and simple question.
- The simple and easy answer is to roll 1 on Nurgle (because you have to when taking a mark as the DG vectorium forces you to) and then roll the other 2 on Telepathy looking for shrouded or invis and swapping out for shriek if you don't get them. This is the default response when you're not sure what to do because invis and shrouded don't really require any tactical brilliance to use and shriek is the best witchfire around.
- Biomancy is a nice way to both boost your survivability (probably not something to worry about too much as a DG player) but also boost your killyness via things like enfeeble (great for IDing T5 with powerfists or T6 with Str10 or just piling wounds onto T3/4 stuff with bolters), iron arm and warpspeed while even lowly old smite is still a decent primaris. The only trash power on Bio is Haemorrage, so just swap that for smite if you roll it. I'm assuming that you're making a spawnstar or biker star with your lord as well, and I can't begin to tell you how difficult it is to remove Enduranced Nurgle Spawn before they start really wrecking face with an attached lord and sorc.
- Pyro isn't the worst thing ever, especially if you didn't buy a sigil already, and fire shield can stack with stealth for a 3+ cover without jinking while also making it harder for people to charge you or get away and there's some decent light infantry mind-dakka available too. Probably wise to skip it unless you have a cunning plan.
- I wouldn't bother trying to summon with a 2W non-daemon caster, so maelific is basically out.
- Sanctic can be a boon because there's a couple of rather handy options here. Sanctuary and hammerhand are both nice options while being WC1, and banishment is also a solid choice when facing off against daemon opponents while gate is an emergency button and has won more than 1 game due to last turn objective shenanigans. Purge is trash, but if you don't mind throwing 3 dice at cleansing flame, it can work absolute wonders against a wide variety of targets due to ignores cover and ap4 while the shear volume of hits can often glance out multiple vehicles with AV11/10 weaknesses. Vortex is pretty suicidal, but against the right targets, can be a game changer. Just accept that you're going to peril and throw 6-8 dice at it and pray you roll a 5 or 6 on the perils chart.
- As for the new powers, a lot of people rate Ectomancy, but I think you're better served elsewhere.
- Sinistrum has warp fate and death hex which are enough justification for rolling there against many armies and if you're intending on punching things, diabolic strength is 2/3rds of iron arm and warp speed at once. There's also a huge amount of milage to be had out of warp lure too since it can effectively shut down an enemy psycher for a turn and when they need to perils just to cast invis, that can be a gamechanger.
- Heretech is pretty win if you suddenly come up against more armour than you have AV to deal with and the ability to also boost your own tanks and transports. Fleshmetal hide will also make your opponent groad because T7 bikes or spawn are no joke.
- Geomortis is pretty junk IMHO unless you roll unearthly anathema or worldwrithe, then it's really, really good, but I'd rather have my psycher have at least 1 power worth casting a turn, and geomortis just doesn't have that assurance unlike virtually every other discipline since 2 great powers and a trash primaris just isn't good enough.

What to take when basically comes down to what your opponent takes and what sort of army you have. Got loads of vehicles and so does your opponent? Heretek is probably a great choice, especially since you're already running T6 bikers and fleshmetal makes you immune to str3. Enemy relying heavily on daemons? Sanctic for banishment, even if you roll your second power on something else is a solid plan. Bio is always an option, but endurance loses a large amount of lustre with few multi-wound things who already have FNP and can't be doubled out (read: T6 Nurgle Bikers), though few is the time when I haven't gotten milage out of enfeebling something (doubling out a riptide with a vindicator is glorious).Facing an enemy deathstar? Sinistrum for Death Hex and warp lure is great while warp fate can keep your own deathstar sticking around longer. Can't reliably hurt something via traditional methods or are going to be shot off the table in short order? Telepathy for shrouded/invis/shriek is always a solid choice, and don't discount how crucial dominate can be since even Ld 10 is failing that check ~10% of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lindsay40k wrote:@-v10mega It's true that a Marked character has restrictions on what units they join, but for a Death Guard army this is a double nonconcern - the model is obliged to take MoN, and is not going to have any Slaaneshi, Khornate or Tzeentchian allies to want to join.

@killerpenguin I second ML3 and spell familiar, do not try Daemonology with him as it will kill him on turn 2. He is obliged to take at least one Nurgle power, so if you take powers from another discipline bear in mind you'll not get its Primaris for free. Biomancy is pretty good - solid synergy with him being in a mobile attack unit. Likewise Sinistrum. If you do take one of these, there's things to be said for not only taking the Force Axe but also replacing his pistol with a Power Sword or Lance - this will enable him to benefit from the I boost from Warp Speed or strike in initiative with Iron Arm, and to benefit from both with Diabolic Strength.

@ Loopstah An Allied Formation consisting of a Word Bearers Sorceror with Palanquin & Scripts of Erebus and a blob of Cultists can be interesting, easily able to summon a bunch of Horrors on the first turn and then pump out a unit of Flesh Hounds, Plaguebearers, Flamers or Seekers every other turn. What looks like a token holding force on setup can become a solid flank able to adapt to a range of threats.

-v10mega wrote:He can ally a non-marked sorcerer ^^^
Word Bearers are not forced to take a mark and therefore can join Death guard units. Same goes with any unmarked sorcerer from other legions. His un marked sorcerer allows him to join death guard units without having to roll on the nurgle powers which are not optimal

Remember that if you're primary CSM, you can't ally another CSM faction, we're not vanilla marines! If you REALLY want unmarked sorcs, then grab a Cyclopia Cabal of 3x black legion sorcs and call it a day, especially that VotLW isn't a tax anymore. Edit: You can take another CAD or a formation, obviously, but not an actuall allied detatchment.

^^ i didnt think of that lol. But you can ally crimson slaughter as they are a diff. faction or black legion. But i think he wants a DG sorcerer so he is good to go with your advice.

Nope for Crimson Slaughter either. They're as much CSM as the rest of em. Remains to be seen if we can do anything interesting with fallen angels though since they now become a proper faction of their own.

Crimson Slaughters are a diff. faction that chaos space marines. they can ally them in.

Can you quote the rule for that? Is it in the new edition of their book?

No they're not. It's a supplement for codex chaos space marines. That means it has the same faction as it's parent dex, that is csm. There's nothing in the supplement either that says otherwise.
Unless I missed some kind of faq, which wouldn't surprise me, but I doubt it in this case. In fact their formations also still have the csm faction symbol.

 Roknar wrote:
No they're not. It's a supplement for codex chaos space marines. That means it has the same faction as it's parent dex, that is csm. There's nothing in the supplement either that says otherwise.
Unless I missed some kind of faq, which wouldn't surprise me, but I doubt it in this case. In fact their formations also still have the csm faction symbol.

3

from the supplement 'A Crimson Slaughter detachment can ally with a Codex: Chaos Space Marines detachment as Battle Brothers (and vice versa). '

Can you give a page number, cuz I have the book in hand and I'm not seeing that anywhere.

That's defining an alliance relationship, not saying that they count as their own faction. The purpose is for having something like a CAD of one and a formation from the other then they will be battle brothers with each other and not suffer from rules like "one eye open".

Im sure Chaos Cads can ally with Crimson Slaughterers i have done it many times. Let me see...

You absolutely can run a CAD of both in the same way that Tyranids can run two CADs from their codex. You can run multiple detachments of the same faction.

Allied detachments, however, are a little more restricted depending on which rules or tournament format you play with.

Found it

Right, but again what I'm saying is that doesn't say that they are a different faction. It says if you have a detachment of CSM and a detachment of Crimson Slaughter then you don't have to worry about "one eye open" and you can cast blessings on each other, etc. It's defining a relationship between crimson slaughter detachments with CSM detachments which is different from saying they are their own faction.

I think what you're confused by was someone saying you can't "ally them in" which is true if you meant to take an allied detachment of Crimson Slaughter since they both count as the same faction. If you meant "ally them in" as take a different CAD or formation then that's fine.

I see what you are saying.

Yea that's definitely not in the physical book. Just another example of why they should have chosen the name for an allied detachment better.

Its on the Crimson Slaughter book. I used to be able to ally Crimson Slaughter with CSM just fine. I swear their is a rule for that.

In other news, I nearly tabled a Grey Knight player in test ITC games yesterday with the following World Eater list:

Butcherhorde

- Chaos Warband

- - Juggerlord + Axe + Sigil + Gift (unworthy rolled)

- - 1 x 3 Termi + Combi-meltas (deep striking)

- - 3 x 3 Bikes + Meltaguns

- - 3 x 5 Havocs + 4 Missile Launchers + 3 Rhinos (one with Rift)

- - 3 x 10 CSM + 2 Meltaguns + Combi-Melta + Melta Bomb

- Aux

- - 1 x 3 Spawn (Juggerlord escort)

Destroyed his Melee Knight, his two Dreadknights, and his termi unit. He had to split off his Draigo-star to snatch victory away from me which was my chance to destroy it but I made too many mistakes with unit movement. The game was extremely close throughout and if I hadn't allowed myself to turn into a deamon prince I woulda won. Terrible move on my part, plus some poor unit movement leaving an objective undefended. I used to be scared of Knight Titans but Missile Launcher and Melta spam make short work of any armor regardless of power. Fearless makes the CSM a powerful tarpit, Objective Secure Rhinos sit on Objectives and allow me to move my units away, Juggerlord in the Warband lets me roll a ton on the boon table with no downsides.

I am very happy about this list and will be taking it to the local tournament this weekend. These's a few leftover points I need to spend somewhere (20~). We'll see what I end up with.

Seems like if you're just camping the Rhinos, you might as well grab Havoc Launchers for them. They aren't much but it IS something to consider.

With how close my units are to the enemy units at all times I think that would be more a liability, or they'd get one shot off before I was too close for comfort. I don't think that's worth the points. Now, combi-melta / plasma on the other hand...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seems like if you're just camping the Rhinos, you might as well grab Havoc Launchers for them. They aren't much but it IS something to consider.

Would also attract attention to them and rhinos aren't exactly robust...

 Drasius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seems like if you're just camping the Rhinos, you might as well grab Havoc Launchers for them. They aren't much but it IS something to consider.

Would also attract attention to them and rhinos aren't exactly robust...

If someone wants an objective they'll kill the Rhino. Buying the Launcher simply makes them contribute more than simply sitting there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seems like if you're just camping the Rhinos, you might as well grab Havoc Launchers for them. They aren't much but it IS something to consider.

Would also attract attention to them and rhinos aren't exactly robust...

If someone wants an objective they'll kill the Rhino. Buying the Launcher simply makes them contribute more than simply sitting there.

35 points for an objective secured hunk of metal (plastic) that MUST be dealt with or I'm going to keep getting points. I also hide one - two of them in cover or behind building on top of objectives, making the launcher useless in that situation. As soon as they make it to their objective markers, which they do turn one, I never need to move or shoot them again. They do their job just existing, they don't need to contribute any more than that.

going back to the fallen had a look on the GW preorders site and the fallen mini box clearly has loyalist weps:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/The-Fallen

storm bolters, shields so looks to be DA vets rules....

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Fallen-Champions

Not sure if one of those marines has grav or an oldermark meltagun, going on the side of melta

infact the desc specifically lacks grav:

a set of 10 Mark IV Space Marines, with an impressive selection of armaments including bolters, missile launcher, heavy bolter, chainswords, power swords, power fists, plasma pistols, lightning claw blades, combi flamer, melta and plasma guns, a melta bomb and a set of combat blades! These miniatures also include ammo packs, holstered bolt pistols and a selection of frag and krak grenades. Supplied with ten Citadel 32mm Round bases and a transfer sheet;

and a set of 5 Fallen, including an upgrade sprue to customise your unit. There are also plenty of spare components that can be used to convert your other multi-part plastic Space Marine squads into Fallen. These are supplied with 5 Citadel 25mm

It's literally a Photoshop of the DA vets from green to black.

The models won't come with grav but DA vets do have rules for them. Soo the rules writers could have gone either way.

Lame, 10 more points for the privilege of a new faction. If they don't come with Grav they won't be seeing any more table time then they do now.

At least we still have Alpha Legion.