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What is their formation exactly? Assuming the benefits are nuts it could be better than Alpha Legion Chosen.

So I'm trying to debate either Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion. I like the idea of Infiltrating Chosen, but the tank hunting Havoks and Obliterators are tasty (Plus having re-rollable scatter for Vindicators and Deffy is pretty decent, too). Of course I might try to run a Alpha Legion Insurgency Force with a Iron Warriors CaD on the side for the ObSec Oblits.

Been running a IW cad with lascannon havocs, melta havocs and obilts... can confirm tank hunter makes a huge difference.

As does obilt ob sec and even the 6 fnp comes in more handy than i expected

melta havocs are just evil 2d6 with a re-roll and then ofc tank hunter also works in CC so when you charge a light vehicle that 6 to glance isnt such of a punt.

Pretty sure tank hunter only requires one model in the unit to have it, so whack a char in there and he has tank hunter too which opens up some combos

Captyn_Bob wrote:Thoughts on Cypher?
...
How about in a TS terminator blob with sorcerer support and astral grimoire?

Cypher hasn't changed at all. He was OK to Meh before, he's OK to Meh now. As to being in a thousand sons force, I'm not sure I want -1 ld for my warlord, but given that you're ld10 before VotLW, it won't make any difference, but thousand sons are already expensive as all hell, taking another 190 points of bolter bait isn't going to do a whole lot, but if you really want hit and run, it's the only way to get it. Most CSM forces are generally pretty happy being in combat though. He'd do OK in a block of KDK hounds though I suspect, or really any khorne force since their mark only really works on the charge.

andysonic1 wrote:So you have to take the Fallen Champ detachment, which just arbitrarily got 10 points more expensive base.

They got 10 points more expensive because VotLW is 2 ppm for chosen and fallen went from Ld9 to Ld10, VotLW has basically been added to their base cost.

He could be pretty intersting for DG. Being able to hit and run with actual plasma on chosen would be nice. The iniative 3 could be a problem though.
Alternatively, what about BL? There's a good chance a yuranthos sorcerer could pick up fireshield, he gets 4/6 spells after all. That would give the unit he joins a 2+ cover save in the open.
Just not sure what unit that would be. 2+ spawn escort would be nice, but he's too slow for that and infiltrate isn't really viable at that point due to the cost. Unless you plan to move via spell support I guess.
The only units that would really benefit from hit and run would be melta chosen/havocs or obliterators.

 Drasius wrote:


Cypher hasn't changed at all. He was OK to Meh before, he's OK to Meh now. As to being in a thousand sons force, I'm not sure I want -1 ld for my warlord, but given that you're ld10 before VotLW, it won't make any difference, but thousand sons are already expensive as all hell, taking another 190 points of bolter bait isn't going to do a whole lot, but if you really want hit and run, it's the only way to get it. Most CSM forces are generally pretty happy being in combat though. He'd do OK in a block of KDK hounds though I suspect, or really any khorne force since their mark only really works on the charge.

I thought the new rules had made him easier to take.. but I guess not. (in fact, as he has a faction now, and hates daemons, no joining KDK hounds :( )
And the legion rules forbid names characters, which makes taking Cypher awkward. Essentially you need a warlord who is vanilla CSM, which is a big ask.

Some names come to mind.. poor neglected Fabius, who can make a buffed infantry blob which would benefit from hit and run and shrouding.
Also Huron is interesting, as he can hand out infiltrate, which Cypher can join. Could be handy,

Cypher throws out 3 very good things
Shrouded- good on stuff like Spawn, stacks well with night lords/ DG stealth.

Hit and run- good on most combat units, as you can bail out and charge back in again. World eaters especially would be fond of this. Worse than the mindveil tho.

And they Shall Know no fear, arguably better than fearless, very useful for bigger chaos units.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hit and run would be taken on Cyphers Initative 8

Thoughts on oblits...Obsec or T5 FNP?

In terms of MSU, the Iron Warriors work better to help spam OS. Otherwise Nurgle all the way.

Don't forget that ObSecBlits have Tank Hunters. A third of their Assault Cannon hits are going to Rend. That's better than a squad with six Autocannons. Heck, that's nearly even odds on penetrating a Land Raider, even on the turns your Lascannons are cooling down. I think there's even an argument to forego ObSec and pay the Warpsmith tax to double their fire rate. Put them on three Fortifications and an Objective on each fort and let rip, DS some single model Blits (or even Muties) to tag the enemy objectives, and keep enemies away from your Forts with the rest of the army - losing ObSec only matters if opponents actually get close enough to contest (i.e., within triple Flamer or double Plasma or close Melta range, hell your objectives are on elevated battlements, so 95% of units can't actually get to them without bringing it down; can a Warpsmith repair damage?). Bung a Conversion Beamer on a Fort or two to troll enemies who think they can outrange you, you can easily convert three from a Kataphron kit. Occupy it with Havocs or cheap Cultists to prevent invasion. Or fill it with Oblits and take a bunch of Geomortis to turn it into a Land Raider with firepoints. IW are amazing!

Speaking of FNP, I'm looking at CSM and Havocs squads for my WBs, and pondering the utility of +1I & FNP. For a ten man squad it costs 50pts in all, adding 20pts if you want Melta Havocs to carry CCWs to chop up the survivors of a popped transport. That's some heavy expenditure, for the cost of upgrading two squads I could take another squad of Havocs with Autocannons. Or a competent Summoner.

I have six bikes from my KDK Goreback days. I'm on the fence about running them in my World Eaters detachment. I mean, I'll run one unit because I need to, but do I run a unit of five with double melta or do I run three units of three all with melta? So far they have mostly been ignored due to the pressure the rest of the army exerts but I've noticed that they don't do much in a fight when there's only three of them. They get their attacks off then die. A larger unit can do more damage in a fight but I would have less melta to play with.

I'v run a couple of units of 5 with 2 melta in my WE army the 2d6 really makes them into more of a solid flank than a suck it and see annoyance

Three melta bikes has always struck me as just Termicide with no DS mishaps but more limited range and a turn of travelling to get to reach a target. Not bad for scarecrowing a Land Raider or dealing with DS dreads if you can keep them safe, but unlikely to manage a deep insertion mission.

I'm no fan of Termicide, I'm back to running five termies and a burning brand lord. I think I'll take one unit of five instead of three units of three. That used to be decent as a Juggerlord escort unit, maybe I'll do that again.

"scarecrowing" ?

Additionally: the tourny I will be participating in this weekend will have superheavies. I know for a fact that an Eldar player will be bringing a Wrathknight. I do not know which one. The two Gray Knight players will be taking Knight Titans of the shooty kind. I imagine many others will be taking similar monstrosities. As a World Eaters player I feel somewhat pigeon-holed into melee even though I do it well.

By 'scarecrowing', I mean enemy heavy vehicles are afraid to get within 18" of three melta bikes. They may never fire their weapons at all, but if they keep a unit of hammernators aboard a Land Raider or a Demolisher from advancing then they're exercising space control.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Don't forget that ObSecBlits have Tank Hunters. A third of their Assault Cannon hits are going to Rend. That's better than a squad with six Autocannons. Heck, that's nearly even odds on penetrating a Land Raider, even on the turns your Lascannons are cooling down. I think there's even an argument to forego ObSec and pay the Warpsmith tax to double their fire rate. Put them on three Fortifications and an Objective on each fort and let rip, DS some single model Blits (or even Muties) to tag the enemy objectives, and keep enemies away from your Forts with the rest of the army - losing ObSec only matters if opponents actually get close enough to contest (i.e., within triple Flamer or double Plasma or close Melta range, hell your objectives are on elevated battlements, so 95% of units can't actually get to them without bringing it down; can a Warpsmith repair damage?). Bung a Conversion Beamer on a Fort or two to troll enemies who think they can outrange you, you can easily convert three from a Kataphron kit. Occupy it with Havocs or cheap Cultists to prevent invasion. Or fill it with Oblits and take a bunch of Geomortis to turn it into a Land Raider with firepoints. IW are amazing!

Speaking of FNP, I'm looking at CSM and Havocs squads for my WBs, and pondering the utility of +1I & FNP. For a ten man squad it costs 50pts in all, adding 20pts if you want Melta Havocs to carry CCWs to chop up the survivors of a popped transport. That's some heavy expenditure, for the cost of upgrading two squads I could take another squad of Havocs with Autocannons. Or a competent Summoner.

Assault cannons are almost always the optimal weapon to fire sadly (lascannons are slightly better against AV12 though),

Warpsmiths can't have a conversion beamer (or a bike, or melta bombs, or a Sigil, or... you get the point), in fact, Beamers are a loyalist only thing outside of forgeworld.

There's no way that buying MoS and a banner for a ranged squad is worth it. The MoS is pure tax and if you're sitting at range, much of the incoming fire is going to be high enough str to ignore fnp anyway. Not to mention adding a bunch of bullet catchers who also need to pay the MoS tax. The closer you get and the more likely it is that you reach combat, the better value it becomes, unless you're facing a bunch of powerfists and such where you aren't getting you FNP anyway. If you think that you're going to get into CC though, striking first against a large portion of the games units is nice and FNP can really swing a combat, and since you're not fearless, minimising the amount of test or just the -ve modifier can be a huge benefit. Probably not enough to be of use on a CSM squad though since it's more than 1/3rd the cost of the squad to save 1/3rd of the wounds, so by simply taking the additional squads, you've got more firepower and more bodies for the times when you get hit by Str8+ which also gives you board control.

Urge to take a 20 man CSM squad rising...

 Drasius wrote:
and since you're not fearless, minimising the amount of test or just the -ve modifier can be a huge benefit.

Assuming you are talking about MoS when used with emporer's children then the MoS does give you fearless on votlw models

lindsay40k wrote:Speaking of FNP, I'm looking at CSM and Havocs squads for my WBs, and pondering the utility of +1I & FNP...

Latro_ wrote:Assuming you are talking about MoS when used with emporer's children then the MoS does give you fearless on votlw models

lindsay40k was talking about word bearers, not EC though.

@Drasius I was referring to Rapier Conversion Beamers. Incredible synergy with Geomancers - rolling the spell that gives them Ignores Cover & X-ray vision makes them into a hybrid Vindicator & Whirlwind.

God, I want some beamers so bad but I know as soon as I get some I'll be TFG.

What means have we got to give a Blind Fury Juggerlord a strength buff? If he's in a unit with a Banner of Wrath (edit: or is a World Eater), he's one pip away from IDing T4 on the charge.

Well he gets Furious Charge by default by having World Eaters, but regarding getting S8 on the charge you'd need Psyker powers. The Cabal is arguably the easiest way to get in Psykers.

 lindsay40k wrote:
What means have we got to give a Blind Fury Juggerlord a strength buff? If he's in a unit with a Banner of Wrath (edit: or is a World Eater), he's one pip away from IDing T4 on the charge.

If he's part of the Hounds of Abbadon he gets an extra Strength for rolling 8+ on the charge. That's in addition to Furious if you have the banner of Wrath, which will help you get that 8+.

Hmm. He also needs FC, which requires him to join a Khorne unit with banner. The banner also grants a re-roll of the charge, which gives better than even odds on an 8+, but not as good as his Fleet, which allows each dice to be re-rolled.

The charging unit wants to be keeping pace with him and hopefully getting a first turn charge, which suggests Land Raider; they jump out of the Land Raider in a way that allows him to jump out of his bodyguard unit and join them - the Hounds' bikes are a good choice for his starting unit, so as to avoid rousing suspicion. (Spawn can't carry a Banner, so they're out.)

He's part of a Core Speartip formation, so that's a start. Cheapest option is probably to put one of the infantry in a Land Raider, which means either a CAD or Fist of the Gods. The latter's Warpsmith could join the unit inside and Challenge characters with a lot of AP3, but I'd sooner take a HQ Sorceror for another purpose as it can be strongly argued the Warpsmith prevents the Hound unit from exploiting running and charging - with Crusader, that's a big deal we don't want to be negotiating and TFGing over.

Alternatively, a unit of Possessed. Can't run and charge, but have a much better shot at giving our guy S8, which could be a deal-breaker when Paladins are around. Affordable options there are the Tormented, or make the LR's CAD Word Bearers; the latter has the advantages of ObSec and access to a decent Daemonologist HQ to babysit Cultists and Summon, and the Possessed don't need Rending to smash heads with a S8 AxeLord in tow.

A tangential synergy would be to take a Raptor Talon with Dimensional Key for Warlord; adds to T1 shock & awe, then the Daemonologist can drop down Flamers in very precise spots to maximise their firepower or place Seekers & Flesh Hounds behind corners without worrying about exposing them. Then you get Warp Talons landing in between gunner units, Blinding one and engaging the other as the Hounds close in for another charge.

Not a bad set of options, and a BL-WB coalition is a perfectly fluffy army theme

*edit* Argh never mind... I forgot hounds can only use their gimmick starting T2 not T1....Unless... it says any of your turns after THE first (turn), That would refer to player turn. Does that mean it works if you go second?

Huh. I just realized that BL hounds can charge just as far as WE, if not better. At least in theory.
Should you put them in a land raider or spartan (or flyer+landing pad) they get to move 6, then disembark another 6, run d6 (with crusader) then charge 2d6 with re-rolls (icon).
That's 12+3d6, while WE do 6 +4d6. 30 inch potential for hounds and WE both, but hounds will get further on average due to their rolls all being re-rollable and guaranteeing 12 inch rather than 6. If you give WE a landraider they loose their pre game 2d6 and the d6 from running so end up with only 12 +2d6.

Doesn't mean much in practice but I found it interesting. It only works with basic csm (and zerkers, but why?) and you can't take an assault vehicle in that formation so it's a pretty moot point really.
If you want to try first turn charges I think you're still better of just taking a cabal and fishing for soulswitch. You don't even necessarily need to be in the same unit for that. You also don't need a vehicle or cad like this.
Take a TAF deepstrike, shoot, then soulswitch, run and charge. Or just deepstrike some raptors/talons from the hounds. It's just not as ideal. The basic raptors would have the advantage of being the cheapest solution at least.
Well unless you plan on deepstriking the psyker solo, which you aren't.

The key doesn't really work with summoning because of how those spells have an inherent range limit. It helps obviously, but you can't suddenly drop units where you need them unless you also happen to be close already. Which cursed earth does too, while also boosting invulns. Also don't expect warp talons to blind anything that isn't orks or necrons.

The easiest and most reliable would be to buy dreadclaws. They don't require luck like the psykers do, are cheaper in comparison to psykers and allow T2 charges without being shot at in T1. Either that or skimp on both psykers and claws and just hoof it.
Either way T1 charges are going to be luck based. May as well use a raptor talon to T1 charge instead, they don't require anything to work and are at least as likely to make a T1 charge as csm are with all the help they can get. And if they do, you csm are going to draw less fire too.

Ooer. I hadn't spotted that vehicles can only move 6" when occupants are disembarking, and nobody's ever corrected me. Damn.

I'm on the fence between two list ideas: hordes of CSM, Havocs, and Bikes, or HQ spam.

Hordes List

Lord on Jugger with AoBF
Termicide
3x3 Bikes, meltas
3x5 Havocs, autocannons, rhinos
3x10 CSM, meltas
3 spawn for lord escort

HQ Spam

Lord on Jugger with AoBF
5 Termies, kitted for melee
3 Bikes MSU, meltas
1 Havoc unit, autocannon, rhino
2x10 CSM, meltas
Deamon Prince, Glaive
Termie Lord, Burning Brand
4 Spawn

HQ Spam worked fairly well in my local meta when superheavies weren't allowed, but now that the local tourny is allowing 1 superheavy in your list they are getting blown to bits before being able to do anything. The horde list actually did decently against Knight Titans as most hordes lists do, but I find myself leaning back towards the HQ's. The next tourny is going to be full of Titans and Wrathnights, however.

Re Thousand Sons. The Mark of Tzeentch says models bearing it cannot boost their invulnerable save better than 3++. So I guess anyone planning 2++ Possessed/DP/Oblits via Cursed Earth better think again?

That's one of those things that will get argued in ymdc for pages and pages, but I'd always understood it to mean your base invuln can't go under a 3+, but temporary buffs could raise it for a turn.

 Badablack wrote:
That's one of those things that will get argued in ymdc for pages and pages, but I'd always understood it to mean your base invuln can't go under a 3+, but temporary buffs could raise it for a turn.

interesting thing is if the model does not have a inv they get a flat 6+ with no restriction past the 3+ XD