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Nurgle possessed are surprisingly better with their new buffs 5+ feel no pain plus their daemon save means against anything ap3 or less they have a great chance of surviving, I admit their possessed rule could do with a major overhaul but can still be quite fun (just a shame all possessed didn't get the Crimson slaughter rules)
Also sucks that only black legion get the tormented formation as that one is far better than the favoured one that the other legions get

I am working up to fielding Favoured of Chaos, myself. They're pricey and way suboptimal, sure, but effectively having I5 S5 Lightning Claws and Fleet isn't terrible. I'm running Word Bearers, so the DP is a level four psyker summoning Daemons on a 3+. So, I'm thinking put them in Rhinos with Dirge Casters to rush forwards on first turn and obstruct LoS, and drop down Plaguebearers to add to target saturation. Maybe Fiends of Slaanesh to help with charges into cover. I'd like to make the Rhinos Daemonic for fluff, though of course this is really starting to overspend.

With regard to the units' Marks, I'm thinking a Nurgle one for multi-charging, a Khorne one for hitting hard, and a Tzeentch one for taking on units with high AP - if Cursed Earth comes up (good odds with a Sorceror accompanying Cultists nearby), that's a 3++.

The tormented formation didn't really get any better mind you. It's not part of the speartip (seriously, dafuk?) and still has the same issues as before. They were already doing the most damage for the least points before (as far as possessed go) and now do even more damage thanks to built in hatred, but they still as squishy as ever. They're marginally less expensive thanks to getting free VotLW, but still not cheap enough to make up for the lack of grenades, since for all their slicing prowess, they'll still hit last unless you jump through a myriad of hoops, ie not at all since they're dead. Having initiative 5 and being pretty darn choppy depending on the mark, make it really important to have some guarantee to strike at that iniative step. Which makes them super expensive glass cannons. (although less expensive than the favoured, not that it matters much)

 Roknar wrote:
The tormented formation didn't really get any better mind you. It's not part of the speartip (seriously, dafuk?) and still has the same issues as before. They were already doing the most damage for the least points before (as far as possessed go) and now do even more damage thanks to built in hatred, but they still as squishy as ever. They're marginally less expensive thanks to getting free VotLW, but still not cheap enough to make up for the lack of grenades, since for all their slicing prowess, they'll still hit last unless you jump through a myriad of hoops, ie not at all since they're dead. Having initiative 5 and being pretty darn choppy depending on the mark, make it really important to have some guarantee to strike at that iniative step. Which makes them super expensive glass cannons. (although less expensive than the favoured, not that it matters much)

Yeah it's pretty odd about not having being in the speartip, Nah I just like the tormented more since you need one less possessed squad and you get all the benefits of rending I5 and Ws5 without having to have the daemon prince within range (well having the prince means they auto pass the leadership test they have to take bit with freee VOTLW they'll pass that almost all the time) which means I can have the prince flying well ahead of everything without having to worry about keeping him close so the possessed get the formation benifits, being able get deathguard possessed (or any legion possessed apart from Black legion) with rending plus still able to roll on their chart would be pretty cool though that's just me

The tormented formation is Black Legion only, just in case you think you could use that with DG. The formation itself isn't bad, but it has a hidden cost.
If we could have taken it as a core formation it would have cut some of that cost and it might have been worth considering.
As is, you'll either need to make an army of formations or you still need a CAD to field it. Not to mention the need for a kharybdis or spartan.
There are other way to assault at iniative, but they're not as reliable and a little awkward. And since you have two paper thin units you'd really want two or at least a claw for the other unit, unless you're fine with fishing for psychic powers.
Which in turn means more hidden costs again. It's a little bit better now in that a BL CAD could be a cheaper, slightly worse TAF. I haven't checked what it would come down to with the new legion rules, but I'm pretty certain it will still leave you with possessed and little else, making the army as a whole kinda meh.

That said I'm gonna try and convince my group to allow it as a core formation lol. A couple of possessed mixed with a few spawn and auloth somewhere in the mix would make for a cool army.

What's the point of mixing possessed with spawns when spawns are better 99% of the time? It's like mixing banshees with scatbikes.

 koooaei wrote:
What's the point of mixing possessed with spawns when spawns are better 99% of the time? It's like mixing banshees with scatbikes.

Well the Possessed would get more of the formation benefits bit good point.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What's the point of mixing possessed with spawns when spawns are better 99% of the time? It's like mixing banshees with scatbikes.

Well the Possessed would get more of the formation benefits bit good point.

Not to the point of costing THAT much.

I've played vs possessed formation once. They had rhinos and stuff. In the end the dp was down to one wound after a round of shooting - even with 2+ jinks and had to hide while possessed got shot down next turn and beaten in mellee by regular sisters of battle with priests.

 koooaei wrote:
What's the point of mixing possessed with spawns when spawns are better 99% of the time? It's like mixing banshees with scatbikes.

Theme mostly. Spawn being those who failed to remain in control and it would look cool on the table. And in case this wasn't obvious already, this would be a fun army, not a serious one.
That said, how do you reckon spawn being better 99% of the time?

Those possessed are Weapon skill and Initiative 5, Hatred, rending and have fnp due to auloth, thankfully an icon of vengeance is only 5 points for them.
So they hit better, can re-roll and hit sooner or at same time as spawn (that is to say last if you suffer terrain or so) They are better in every way except wounds per points and movement (which is partly offset by transports and crusader).
Both can wound pretty much anything with a toughness value, but possessed get the benefit of ignoring armour saves from rending with hatred and the ability to threaten all the way up to and including av14.

If you give them MoN, they have the same toughness as base spawn but with a better save (two actually) plus fnp, so not that different from 3 wounds with no protection given how they are just as hard to wound in the first place (more so in combat due to WS, nvm I 5) but now getting two chances to save. MoK gives them at least 4 attacks on the charge vs their 5 on average but with re-rolls and wounding on 2+ most likely. And the Icon actually works well for wiping units with crusader (which they would have in this homebrew scenario). Basically their are similar, with spawn having an edge on defense and mobility and possessed on offense and anti vehicle, both being able to deal with just about any unit.

Spawn have at minimum 3 attacks on the charge and 3 wounds at T6 with no save is better than one wound at T5/3+/5++/5+++.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't forget the sheer speed Spawn have.

Even when you don't play Nurgle it's hard to pass up the number of wounds and attacks Spawn have, plus their 12 inch move. They're jut flat out better than Possessed.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Even when you don't play Nurgle it's hard to pass up the number of wounds and attacks Spawn have, plus their 12 inch move. They're jut flat out better than Possessed.

The possessed can be Obsec in the warband formation and don't take up a formation slot if that's important to you for the event or game you're doing.

Nurgle and Slaanesh possessed can be interesting in that respect, with built in FNP. World Eaters Possessed get the pre-game 2D6 move and so could be in a decent position as well.

The Spawn probably more easily fit into most armies with a killy bike or Jugger-lord, but Spawn vs Legion Possessed are not as no-brainer as a Hades vs Bale drake I think.

Spawn are cheaper, faster, tougher, auto fearless, provide the best bodyguard and can do some pretty good damage. Possessed needs a rhino dedicated to them or any other transport, they can also be shot to death. i dont know but T6 spawn with 5 models and 3 wounds each for 180pts sounds pretty good to me.

That's with MoN though, compared to base they're pretty close and cost about the same at 30 to 32-ish though it's hard to factor in auloth since that get's cheaper the more units/models are hit and giving the vehicle pinning is nice touch too.
At range it's same toughness vs -/-/- or 3+/5++/5+++ not counting cover that is (in which case spawn win hands down), in melee they get hit less due to I5/6 and then still have their 3+/5++/5+++. And rarely due to WS5, but I suppose those units aren't putting up much of a fight anyway). Not disagreeing though that T6 makes the spawn quite a bit tougher, which still isn't all that expensive really. Just saying MoN possessed with fnp aren't THAT much squishier compared to spawn.

While attack wise they both generate about the same number of hits if we assume 3 attacks on possessed and 5 on spawn, few more if you take MoK posessed. But the wounds generated will sometimes be Ap2 or Ap3 with possessed and they hit sooner, with them occasionally generating more hits due to the +1 attack mutation which is ever so slightly better than re-rolling the d6 . Both have the same chance of shred, either gaining outright shred or due to poison re-roll and S5. Both will wound on 3+ though unless you take MoK.
And the icon gives them a little extra chance to wipe a unit. And they get the occasional boon, which possessed don't get.

The mobility is really what sets them apart and what makes the spawn so much cheaper. Possessed need a vehicle not only to make up for their speed but also their grenades. Not to mention relying on Auloth to make up for their lack of wounds, which won't be around forever. Though on the plus side, if your opponent is trying to take out that, your other units aren't being shot at.
With an (appropriate) vehicle (aka not a rhino) they'll move faster than spawn and can't be shot at all until they reach combat. I mean they'd have crusader but that doesn't really compare to being beasts....which also have crusader.
Unfortunately "appropriate" in this case means around 300 points which is another 10 spawn or slightly less but all with marks.

Formation possessed with fnp can compare to base spawn while being able to take marks for the same cost...if you're fine with taking a kharybids or spartan as a transport anyway (which in my case would be an excuse to get me a kharybdis, so yes for me). Possessed get a little more out of psychic buffs like warpfate, cursed earth or eventeh nurgle buffs, but I hate playing that lottery.
If you are taking that risk and relying on psychic powers though, the mobility really doesn't matter as long as you have a unit close to whatever you want to assault. Vehicles are faster than spawn and possessed would let you take rhinos as soulswitch beacons in that case. Or ghost storming them for dirge casters. Or blocking LoS.

Also, and maybe I should have started with this. Don't forget this is in perspective of the tormented as a core formation. The possessed would go after high priority targets while the spawn go after everything else plus the spawn would allow the possessed to not worry about grenades as much and could eat overwatch

I would say it's pretty close to being no-brainer. There's a lot of hoops you have to jump through to make Possessed worth their points, meanwhile stock Spawn happily soak up wounds and dish out plenty of S5 attacks. When you add in Marks things just get even more clear Spawn are the victor.

Ugh I shouldn't have brought up the idea to have the tormented as core formation lol. Let's just drop that hypothetical scenario before this turns into a mutilator thread.
Generally speaking Spawn are better because they're so much easier to use. You don't need a formation and despite not having a save or fancy rules, most of the time you can send them vs pretty much any unit and they'll be able to deal with it just fine or at least keep it busy. Possessed like those in the tormented formation do more damage, but generally it's not worth going the extra mile when spawn can do the same in maybe half a turn longer without any of the headaches.
That much we all agree on. I wasn't trying to turn this into a possessed vs spawn thing.
I was simply responding to the 99% better comment when you're already set on taking possessed. They can live side by side doing different things. (tormented) Possessed aren't simply worse spawn. They can attack different units while still complementing each other. that was all. They're still not worth taking as a unit unless you WANT to take them.

^^^ i get you dude, hey believe what you want to believe and if you make possessed work then thats great!

Blood of Kittens finally put their World Eaters review up: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/03/02/world-eaters-premature-traitor-legion-ranking/

After four games of ITC against my buddy's Gray Knights, I was actually in the process of adding a Lost and the Damned into my list. Glad to see I'm not the only one looking at doing that. Honestly, I'm finding that more bodies = better games and fewer bodies = dead models. My initial thoughts of going full HQ spam has not been successful, those units of Spawn and Juggerlords dying in CC and shooting quickly, meanwhile my MSU Havocs and 10 man CSM units constantly do the work the Juggerlords are supposed to. It's becoming clear to me that HQs are NOT the way to go and bodies dishing out buckets of dice in CC and ranged, regardless of power, is waaaaay better.

My next list will have lots of Cultists, Havocs, and CSM. Time to go full BWAAAHG FOR THE BLOOD GOD

Word on the street is the cypher and his fallen buddies from the new GS book can be taken in a CSM army.

The fallen formation i read is basically units of DA veterans! I think this varies from the previous formation dataslate that was chaos chosen right?

So what we think? might be fun to run a bit of grav

drop grav in a chaos list?

Yes.. I can see that working.

Depends on how they can be taken.

 Latro_ wrote:
Word on the street is the cypher and his fallen buddies from the new GS book can be taken in a CSM army.

The fallen formation i read is basically units of DA veterans! I think this varies from the previous formation dataslate that was chaos chosen right?

So what we think? might be fun to run a bit of grav

That could be a little wild.

 Latro_ wrote:
Word on the street is the cypher and his fallen buddies from the new GS book can be taken in a CSM army.

The fallen formation i read is basically units of DA veterans! I think this varies from the previous formation dataslate that was chaos chosen right?

So what we think? might be fun to run a bit of grav

I also saw this. If this is how we get grav in chaos than so be it. I wouldn't mind bringing on a single formation for it, plus Cypher is awesome.



This...actually kind of excites me...maybe some Fallen will be joining my World Eaters...

If they're supposed to be like Angel Veterans, they basically take two Specials and a Heavy at 10 dudes. Not really worth the grav.

And combi grav, and grav pistols.

And a cheap drop pod, which could be handy to weighting two of our overpriced pods to drop turn 1

Hmm Kanluwen posted a picture of the index in the news thread and it has cypher as well as fallen and fallen champions. I wonder how those last two differ. doesn't the existing dataslate have fallen champions be chosen?

Could be a hq choice maybe?

Well until more leaks happen, there isn't too much point in trying to come up with strategies for a unit we know little about.

Well, this looks great, I always wanted to do my Dark Vengeance guys as Fallen, fingers crossed GW accounted for that (not uncommon IME) desire.

Ok looks like fallen champions is the formation, same as existing one but with DA vets instead of chosen.



It's not looking like it's possible to take fallen without cypher.

The thing that hurts the whole battle brothers is that they're CTA with daemons which depending on how they work won't be as efficient as allying with daemons.