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 Eldarain wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Because the Terminator formation shoots in the movement phase does it become one of our best answers to Knights?

In what manner? With Raptors you can shoot off 2-3 Melta shots and assault with a Melta Bomb.

You fire before they orient their shield.

They orientate at the beginning of the game so he is making you go closer to his lines so get his unprotected sides. not a huge issue i guess but it might place you somewhere less safe.

 koooaei wrote:
CSM allready have a bunch of worthwhile tourney lists that are way better than this 1-st turn deepstrike shenanigans.

Oh? Do you mean CSM with Daemon allies, or CSM with Necron allies, or something else?

I was not aware there are any pure CSM lists that have placed at a tournament.

Sorcabals with various deathstars have been doing good, new legion decurions are also quite nice. For example, a csm player has placed 4-th with an iron warrior warband with cult of destruction and a heldrake formation. Just 1 turn shy of getting to top tables. He still had all 2 heldrakes and something else vs 2 last ravenwing knights in semi finals. But lost on vp, unfortunately. And than he met eldar with wraithknight + imp knight in a mission focussed around scoring the middle.

Not that he even had the most optimal list possible.

 Roknar wrote:
I see people considering a second wave with world eaters. What about taking a World Eater Warband with a couple of spawn and then a Black Legion hounds of abaddon formation with some spawn.

You get the best of both worlds. Hound units hit pretty hard for what they cost given all the discounts. While WE can re-deploy and catch objectives.
Turn one, WE try to run up the board for T1 assaults and objectives in your opponents deployment zone. Spawn can eat overwatch.
Turn two BL marines run and charge into units that are harder to shift or finish off units the WE are struggling with.

The hounds also let you take raptors that give you the option to deepstrike T1 with melta or flamers to crack transports or burn a hole in meatshields to charge through with WE. Maybe even a burning brand lord. Every battle report I've seen of people facing WE has them all cower in one corner to avoid T1 charges (and still get charged). To the point even the eye of night becomes dangerous. Ideal targets to be fried via flamer and blasts.

There's probably not enough points left to take a BL talon or TAF though. Talons in particular would be nice.

Wots Eye of the Night?

looks it up

OOOHHH BBOOYY except the range is infinite and it ignores cover, so there's literally no need to risk deep striking it in. You're right though, my roommate is starting to realize he can't put all his army on his deployment line since I'll charge it instantly. But this thing, it forces the enemy to fear castling as well. Jesus, it could punch a hole right through a Tau vehicle bubble wrap while your Juggerlord is within charge range of the squishy suits inside...OFF TO BATTLESCRIBE!

Eye of knight in a spearhead terminator assault force is tempting.

You get to shoot it, T1 Before interceptor fire. Very cool.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
(It's still too many points tho)

Actually, WE and BL have some nice synergy. If they don't castle up they're going to get charged, if they do, eye of night and yuranthos say hello. You could very well hit your opponents entire army with yuranthos if they castle up like I've seen in battle reports. And the since the T1 deepstrike is optional you have some flexibility in your deployment. WE can re-deploy if necessary and you can either hold back deepstriking units when your opponent has reserves or support the WE/ grab a lone objective if you have tactical objective worth it.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Eye of knight in a spearhead terminator assault force is tempting.

You get to shoot it, T1 Before interceptor fire. Very cool.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
(It's still too many points tho)

Its a good counter to tau though.

 koooaei wrote:
CSM allready have a bunch of worthwhile tourney lists that are way better than this 1-st turn deepstrike shenanigans.

Care to share them? Im not being snarky. I actually would love to see them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:

Table wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
You can still take a Black Legion warband in the black crusade detachment, so it's not so bad.

And I actually like the hounds of abaddon for the speartip.

If we had gotten access to a chaos warband with the speartip detachment CSM would have its first tourney build in years. But we cant have that can we.

What's wrong with the Black Legion Warband? You can take a ton of DS units, and so long as they kill something that Preferred-Enemy equivalent is pretty powerful.

Black Legion warband gives you re-roll 1 IF you kill something with a unit from that formation. The Chaos Warband gives Obsec to EVERYTHING in the formation. Turn 1 DSing terminators onto objectives is a nice thing. Its a superior formation regardless.

The BLW does nothing for the formation outside of the suicide terminators and raptors you can take. And we dont need those. So we are left with The Hounds of Abbadon. Which is not terrible, but having to take a marine and zerker tax is just that, an expensive tax. Last I checked charging marines dont do much to anything worthwhile and zerkers are hot garbage. So yea, thats why I want a Chaos Warband. That is close to 200 points in tax for a faction that has no need of taxation.; Maybe if our next codex actually does zerkers justice then we can talk.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Eye of knight in a spearhead terminator assault force is tempting.

You get to shoot it, T1 Before interceptor fire. Very cool.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
(It's still too many points tho)

It's not really, not in a decurion at least. Not that it's cheap by any means, but getting the equivalent fire power in a decurion is even more expensive.
The fist of gods is super expensive even at its cheapest and the fiend formations and cult of destruction ain't exactly cheap either. So by comparison, 75 points for anti tank isn't really all that much.
Plus it can handle high AV targets better than autocannon havocs can. And it doubles as anti horde if there aren't any vehicles around.

I'd only ever consider it in a decurion, but being able to take another anti tank option in a warband or whatever core formation really, without having to fork out the points for a dedicated formation is worth considering imho.
Especially in the case of WE where the opponent might castle up.

 rawne2510 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Eye of knight in a spearhead terminator assault force is tempting.

You get to shoot it, T1 Before interceptor fire. Very cool.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
(It's still too many points tho)

Its a good counter to tau though.

Its still 75 points for a one shot that may or may not be useful. Thats a hard pill to swallow.

Played around in Battlescribe, yeah it doesn't really seem worth it to bring in a Black Legion decursion just for this relic. It's costly and to make the most of the detachment you need deep strikers which is even more costly. A Raptor Talon, arguably the best thing you can deep strike turn one because you can charge right after you come in, will blow up your points. And then if you're going to do that why worry about Eye of the Night? Way too many points just to make your turn one charges deadlier. An allied detachment for the relic is way cheaper.

They still synergize without the relics though. They're really just gravy. Having the hound raptors deepstrike in with melta or flamer isn't as good as a raptor talon but it's still not bad.

 Roknar wrote:
They still synergize without the relics though. They're really just gravy. Having the hound raptors deepstrike in with melta or flamer isn't as good as a raptor talon but it's still not bad.

I'm still not convinced. I can move my World Eater bikes and raptors practically into the enemy deployment zone turn one with decent 2D6 free moves. Giving the bikes plasma means they can fire deep into the enemy zone, and no one can castle so hard they are out of range of that unless they null deploy or I mess up my deployment. On top of that, WE bikes are fearless. If I'm going to take a chaos warband with my WE, then I'd rather invest in units that don't risk deep strike mishaps than those that will. Plus, the Hounds CSM and Berzerkers don't hit any harder than WE ones, and they aren't fearless or Objective Secured or Furious Charging CSM. With the 2D6 move you don't even need Run + Assault, you'll get where you need to get to just fine. Really the only thing tempting from Black Legion is that relic, everything else the WE can do better.

 koooaei wrote:
CSM allready have a bunch of worthwhile tourney lists that are way better than this 1-st turn deepstrike shenanigans.

As was pointed out in a podcast recently. when you can gt the jump on the screamer star or things like it before any buffing and lock it down or kill it, you are miles ahead.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
They still synergize without the relics though. They're really just gravy. Having the hound raptors deepstrike in with melta or flamer isn't as good as a raptor talon but it's still not bad.

I'm still not convinced. I can move my World Eater bikes and raptors practically into the enemy deployment zone turn one with decent 2D6 free moves. Giving the bikes plasma means they can fire deep into the enemy zone, and no one can castle so hard they are out of range of that unless they null deploy or I mess up my deployment. On top of that, WE bikes are fearless. If I'm going to take a chaos warband with my WE, then I'd rather invest in units that don't risk deep strike mishaps than those that will. Plus, the Hounds CSM and Berzerkers don't hit any harder than WE ones, and they aren't fearless or Objective Secured or Furious Charging CSM. With the 2D6 move you don't even need Run + Assault, you'll get where you need to get to just fine. Really the only thing tempting from Black Legion is that relic, everything else the WE can do better.

Hounds have +1 Strength (while also having FC with an icon) , hatred and crusader, so they hit quite a bit harder. Especially if you give the champs special weapons.
The whole idea was having two waves though. WE have a turn 1 gimmick, Hounds have a turn 2 gimmick. So they complement each other in that way.

 Roknar wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Eye of knight in a spearhead terminator assault force is tempting.

You get to shoot it, T1 Before interceptor fire. Very cool.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
(It's still too many points tho)

It's not really, not in a decurion at least. Not that it's cheap by any means, but getting the equivalent fire power in a decurion is even more expensive.
The fist of gods is super expensive even at its cheapest and the fiend formations and cult of destruction ain't exactly cheap either. So by comparison, 75 points for anti tank isn't really all that much.
Plus it can handle high AV targets better than autocannon havocs can. And it doubles as anti horde if there aren't any vehicles around.

I'd only ever consider it in a decurion, but being able to take another anti tank option in a warband or whatever core formation really, without having to fork out the points for a dedicated formation is worth considering imho.
Especially in the case of WE where the opponent might castle up.

I used the Eye of Night years ago with the Black Legion supplement.

75 points used to be worth it because it was the only long range firepower in the army. It was my Tau counter. Now I take rapier weapons batteries from IA:13 with conversion beamers, which accomplish about the same but are not one use only and can target multiple opponents.

If you think about it, it is much more effective to use long range firepower in support of a speartip than to put your biggest gun in the hands of an IC who can mishap. In the current list I am cooking up, it's a Black Legion Speartip with an Iron Warriors CAD, supported by 3 Rapiers and an Aegis Defense Line with a Quad Gun and comms relay. It gives me improved chances to arrive on the first turn, along with 9 high powered shots at 48 inches on the first turn (the IW troops are Oblits). My logic is dealing with the long range threat and the threat of assault at the same time will be hard on opponents.

On the plus side, Eye of Night is very reliable. In actual practice, it takes off one or two hull points from whatever gets caught in the blast, and sometimes kills a few troops. The blast template is large enough it doesn't miss often. The only times it ever has for me is during turn one shooting, when the blast went off the board. It has killed a couple Landraiders for me, but many more Predators and Rhinos. There was once it blew up 2 Vindicators that were right next to each other.

There are some exotic uses as well. One 'strategy' I used in some games was giving to a Flying Daemon Prince and shooting it while landing. It gave him something to do while he was standing around for a turn. It also turned him into a bigger fire magnet, usually for the worse.

But forget about using it against superheavies. Sure, it will hit, but it's not like it's going to end them. You want your one shot guns killing something with their shot.

I use the Eye of night every game. So reliable.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Eye of knight in a spearhead terminator assault force is tempting.

You get to shoot it, T1 Before interceptor fire. Very cool.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
(It's still too many points tho)

It's not really, not in a decurion at least. Not that it's cheap by any means, but getting the equivalent fire power in a decurion is even more expensive.
The fist of gods is super expensive even at its cheapest and the fiend formations and cult of destruction ain't exactly cheap either. So by comparison, 75 points for anti tank isn't really all that much.
Plus it can handle high AV targets better than autocannon havocs can. And it doubles as anti horde if there aren't any vehicles around.

I'd only ever consider it in a decurion, but being able to take another anti tank option in a warband or whatever core formation really, without having to fork out the points for a dedicated formation is worth considering imho.
Especially in the case of WE where the opponent might castle up.

I used the Eye of Night years ago with the Black Legion supplement.

75 points used to be worth it because it was the only long range firepower in the army. It was my Tau counter. Now I take rapier weapons batteries from IA:13 with conversion beamers, which accomplish about the same but are not one use only and can target multiple opponents.

If you think about it, it is much more effective to use long range firepower in support of a speartip than to put your biggest gun in the hands of an IC who can mishap. In the current list I am cooking up, it's a Black Legion Speartip with an Iron Warriors CAD, supported by 3 Rapiers and an Aegis Defense Line with a Quad Gun and comms relay. It gives me improved chances to arrive on the first turn, along with 9 high powered shots at 48 inches on the first turn (the IW troops are Oblits). My logic is dealing with the long range threat and the threat of assault at the same time will be hard on opponents.

On the plus side, Eye of Night is very reliable. In actual practice, it takes off one or two hull points from whatever gets caught in the blast, and sometimes kills a few troops. The blast template is large enough it doesn't miss often. The only times it ever has for me is during turn one shooting, when the blast went off the board. It has killed a couple Landraiders for me, but many more Predators and Rhinos. There was once it blew up 2 Vindicators that were right next to each other.

There are some exotic uses as well. One 'strategy' I used in some games was giving to a Flying Daemon Prince and shooting it while landing. It gave him something to do while he was standing around for a turn. It also turned him into a bigger fire magnet, usually for the worse.

But forget about using it against superheavies. Sure, it will hit, but it's not like it's going to end them. You want your one shot guns killing something with their shot.

Well you don't HAVE to put it on a TAF lord. That would let him shoot before interceptor....but so does simply deploying with termie armour or a bike, or rather, the unit he's in doesn't need to worry about getting shot of the board since they wouldn't be eligble to be shot at. TAF only makes it a bit more enticing since you're getting a discount on the eye if you want to think about it that way. Unfortunately you're not going to be killing riptides or suits with the eye and there aren't that many tanks with interceptor around as far as I know.

 Roknar wrote:

Well you don't HAVE to put it on a TAF lord. That would let him shoot before interceptor....but so does simply deploying with termie armour or a bike, or rather, the unit he's in doesn't need to worry about getting shot of the board since they wouldn't be eligble to be shot at. TAF only makes it a bit more enticing since you're getting a discount on the eye if you want to think about it that way. Unfortunately you're not going to be killing riptides or suits with the eye and there aren't that many tanks with interceptor around as far as I know.

Discount on the eye? Not sure I understand, please explain.

Thinking out loud, but the best way to use the Eye would be to kill something very killable, like a Rhino, and use it to get rerolls for the rest of the warband. You are almost guaranteed to wipe something out. That implies it's really a turn 2 weapon, one that shoots first once everyone is in range.

Anyone tried the IW Cranium Malevolus out yet? it seems pretty sweet on a character in a rhino/LR?

Its the any vehicles within 2d6 in the shooting phase get a haywire hit...

Assuming you'd measure from the hull of a rhino...

Its a bit pricey but seems like it could be hella fun

It sounds great, tho I struggled to find 30pts for it.

Biker sorc running heretech did some business vs vehicles but needed a bit more oomph to finish them off.

I think I'd rather run that on a flying prince so he can get across the board quickly and into ideal positioning while not being particularly vulnerable in the air.

But then your Prince isn't taking fleshmetal.

 Latro_ wrote:
Anyone tried the IW Cranium Malevolus out yet? it seems pretty sweet on a character in a rhino/LR?

Its the any vehicles within 2d6 in the shooting phase get a haywire hit...

In the ENEMY shooting phase. Means that they can easilly get away from you before they get hit. I'd rate it as a 10-15 pt artifact.

 koooaei wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Anyone tried the IW Cranium Malevolus out yet? it seems pretty sweet on a character in a rhino/LR?

Its the any vehicles within 2d6 in the shooting phase get a haywire hit...

In the ENEMY shooting phase. Means that they can easilly get away from you before they get hit. I'd rate it as a 10-15 pt artifact.

Wrong. At the start of the bearers shooting phase you can activate it. You can't reposition and fire, but if the enemy kept things close they screwed up.

 koooaei wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Anyone tried the IW Cranium Malevolus out yet? it seems pretty sweet on a character in a rhino/LR?

Its the any vehicles within 2d6 in the shooting phase get a haywire hit...

In the ENEMY shooting phase. Means that they can easilly get away from you before they get hit. I'd rate it as a 10-15 pt artifact.

Thats not what it says.

https://warofsigmar.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/blogging/picture5/1468/iron_1.jpg

We have the book now, not badly transcribed rumours.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
But then your Prince isn't taking fleshmetal.

Depending on what role you give the prince, you might not need the armor. Or you could run two of course. A Nurgle Prince flying around jinking and summong for example has no need for fleshmetal and is now still contributing more damage to ground targets.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Well you don't HAVE to put it on a TAF lord. That would let him shoot before interceptor....but so does simply deploying with termie armour or a bike, or rather, the unit he's in doesn't need to worry about getting shot of the board since they wouldn't be eligble to be shot at. TAF only makes it a bit more enticing since you're getting a discount on the eye if you want to think about it that way. Unfortunately you're not going to be killing riptides or suits with the eye and there aren't that many tanks with interceptor around as far as I know.

Discount on the eye? Not sure I understand, please explain.

Thinking out loud, but the best way to use the Eye would be to kill something very killable, like a Rhino, and use it to get rerolls for the rest of the warband. You are almost guaranteed to wipe something out. That implies it's really a turn 2 weapon, one that shoots first once everyone is in range.

In the sense that you get the terminator armour free, which you would need anyway if you take the eye (or a bike) because of the relentless it confers.
So you could think of it as a 40 point discount for the eye if you're already planning to take the it.

You can just about fit a T1 shooty, shooty, magicy, assault mess .

Speartip
Hounds of abaddon w/, dreadclaw

Sorceror with eye of night, 3 units of terminators loaded up with guns

Fist of khorne




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I prefer the cult of destruction tho. Real shame the warpsmith can't deep strike.
You can if careful have him in a dreadclaw and get out and join in T1 for double firing fun.
(Obviously there would be other stuff on the dreadclaw, which would be looking to assault T2)