Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Absolutely and I agree with that. I started playing WHFB in 6th and that is be far my favorite edition and aesthetic for the game. But its not 2000 anymore and if GW is going to be putting out new stuff for this little project, it will be done in such a way as to protect their IP.
That's just the way the corporate world works now. GW will not design and produce anything that another company can come in a poach by making cheaper alternatives. Hell, due to 9th age there are PLENTY of companies making miniatures that I can use for WHFB if I want.
Whatever GW comes up with will probably disappoint anyone who want to go back 20 years when it comes to aesthetic. I, unlike others here, don't have any disillusions about that.
With that in mind, I wonder how long it will be before GW decides to actually provide some information on what this Old World project is supposed to entail. When the Sisters of Battle were to be produced (the most similar case I can think of where they spent a prolonged period of time on previews of WIP and final pieces), there wasn't much room for misinterpretation. There would be full range, they would all be in plastic, the core figures would look exactly as anybody would expect them to (the major change in aesthetics being mostly just the Repentia). Obviously, this is a far larger project with many aspects still being considered and worked out. Even so, they must have a plan for the timeline, the initial locations/factions to be covered, the type of game, the material in which the miniatures will be produced, whether OOP models are to be brought back or if it will only feature new sculpts, and so on. Whatever happens, certain people will be disappointed because the aesthetics, rules or setting won't match the version they would have liked to see return, and I can't help but feel getting the disappointment out of the way early will help.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: The concept art looks less Russian and more Middle Eastern.
The thing is, a lot of what people think of as elements of 'Middle-Eastern' aesthetic are actually Central Asian, brought to the Middle East by the Mongols and Turks.
Take that Abzan dude, put some fur around his helmet and the tops of his boots, change the backdrop of the picture to grass and snow instead of sand, and suddenly he goes from 'fantasy Ottoman' to 'fantasy Mongol' or 'fantasy Cossack'.
BroodSpawn wrote:So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?
So you're assuming that everyone wants a return to the bloated trainwreck of 8th Ed. with Kirby's incompetent helming. Nice try. Me personally I'd like a swing back to 6th, when sales were healthy, the barrier to entry was low, and all it would have taken was some effort in advertising to move the game (and 40K at the time) off of High Street and into the public mainstream.
All in all this is simply a thematic retcon, it makes no sense with established lore and serves to do nothing except acclimate WTOW players to AOS and potentially have a playable faction for AOS players. I can see it now, the army formed to fight for the 9th wind of magic, the wind of Ice, also known as the Realm of Brrrrrrrrrrr.
Wait, that name isn't copyright friendly enough. Throw in some random "h"s.
In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.
You're already exaggerating the scale. Heavily focused on Ice Magic is not accurate. Having female Ice Shamans influencing politicians is a DRASTIC difference from a mass number of Elsas flinging Ice Avalanches down on armies, or somehow having Ice Magic as interwoven into their society as to affect everyday tools. High Elves, who incorporate magic on a much higher scale, don't even have that. So now we assume that these Ice Shamans are also elite warriors on par with Swordmasters, Executions, Greatswords, Templeguard, and the like, who also have such a mastery of their powers as to create mystical ice weaponry. Oh, AND these Ice Shamans, who are so critical to the everyday function of Kislev Proper, are marched in a regiment in the middle of battlefields to potentially be picked off by Skinks with Blowpipes.
Every angle you look at this from your assumptions fall apart. Furthermore, I'd love to see ACTUAL PRINTED LORE that states ANYTHING you're claiming. Not a wiki where someone is paraphrasing, not some 3P garbage fluff piece, ACTUAL PRINTED GW MATERIAL that backs up your outlandish claim.
You mean those Central Asian steppe nomads who settled down on the eastern borders of an existing European empire and developed into an agrarian and city-based society? Those Ottomans? Sounds about right as a model for Kislev to me.
I'd expect Kislev to look and -sound more like the Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks than the Ottomans, but that's just moi.
And these ladies look like neither. They have traditional mongol/central asian round hats and outfits loosely inspired by that. And, this may shock you, those outfits heavily inspired Muscovy fashion after mongols have them a complete whipping, and even later post-mongol tribes and khanates either allied with or were part of both polish and russian kingdoms of the time period that inspired Warhammer initially.
BroodSpawn wrote:So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?
So you're assuming that everyone wants a return to the bloated trainwreck of 8th Ed. with Kirby's incompetent helming. Nice try. Me personally I'd like a swing back to 6th, when sales were healthy, the barrier to entry was low, and all it would have taken was some effort in advertising to move the game (and 40K at the time) off of High Street and into the public mainstream.
All in all this is simply a thematic retcon, it makes no sense with established lore and serves to do nothing except acclimate WTOW players to AOS and potentially have a playable faction for AOS players. I can see it now, the army formed to fight for the 9th wind of magic, the wind of Ice, also known as the Realm of Brrrrrrrrrrr.
Wait, that name isn't copyright friendly enough. Throw in some random "h"s.
In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.
You're already exaggerating the scale. Heavily focused on Ice Magic is not accurate. Having female Ice Shamans influencing politicians is a DRASTIC difference from a mass number of Elsas flinging Ice Avalanches down on armies, or somehow having Ice Magic as interwoven into their society as to affect everyday tools. High Elves, who incorporate magic on a much higher scale, don't even have that. So now we assume that these Ice Shamans are also elite warriors on par with Swordmasters, Executions, Greatswords, Templeguard, and the like, who also have such a mastery of their powers as to create mystical ice weaponry. Oh, AND these Ice Shamans, who are so critical to the everyday function of Kislev Proper, are marched in a regiment in the middle of battlefields to potentially be picked off by Skinks with Blowpipes.
Every angle you look at this from your assumptions fall apart. Furthermore, I'd love to see ACTUAL PRINTED LORE that states ANYTHING you're claiming. Not a wiki where someone is paraphrasing, not some 3P garbage fluff piece, ACTUAL PRINTED GW MATERIAL that backs up your outlandish claim.
Well, you'll have it when the new book eventually comes out. Does it make it acceptable then?
You mean those Central Asian steppe nomads who settled down on the eastern borders of an existing European empire and developed into an agrarian and city-based society? Those Ottomans? Sounds about right as a model for Kislev to me.
I'd expect Kislev to look and -sound more like the Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks than the Ottomans, but that's just moi.
And these ladies look like neither. They have traditional mongol/central asian round hats and outfits loosely inspired by that. And, this may shock you, those outfits heavily inspired Muscovy fashion after mongols have them a complete whipping, and even later post-mongol tribes and khanates either allied with or were part of both polish and russian kingdoms of the time period that inspired Warhammer initially.
Yes, and? They still don't look like Kislevites, that's my issue.
Let me put it like this; in an Empire army, a Demigryph Knight still looks like it belongs, because even if the Demigryph might be a bit out-there, the Empire already have Gryphons, and the Knight still looks like an Empire model. But if you try and slot a Stormcast Lord-Aquilor into the same Empire army it would look terribly out of place, because while they might share iconography (hammers, comets, etc) and he's riding a Demigryph as well, you're still trying to slot a Greek Hoplite into a fantasy version of the Holy Roman Empire.
I'm open to the idea that these models could look like they fit in, assuming that there are more models that fit in the middle between the old Kislev aesthetic and this, but as it is, they look like they should be part of Araby or whatever the Warhammer-version of Persia is rather than Kislev.
BroodSpawn wrote:So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?
So you're assuming that everyone wants a return to the bloated trainwreck of 8th Ed. with Kirby's incompetent helming. Nice try. Me personally I'd like a swing back to 6th, when sales were healthy, the barrier to entry was low, and all it would have taken was some effort in advertising to move the game (and 40K at the time) off of High Street and into the public mainstream.
All in all this is simply a thematic retcon, it makes no sense with established lore and serves to do nothing except acclimate WTOW players to AOS and potentially have a playable faction for AOS players. I can see it now, the army formed to fight for the 9th wind of magic, the wind of Ice, also known as the Realm of Brrrrrrrrrrr.
Wait, that name isn't copyright friendly enough. Throw in some random "h"s.
In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.
You're already exaggerating the scale. Heavily focused on Ice Magic is not accurate. Having female Ice Shamans influencing politicians is a DRASTIC difference from a mass number of Elsas flinging Ice Avalanches down on armies, or somehow having Ice Magic as interwoven into their society as to affect everyday tools. High Elves, who incorporate magic on a much higher scale, don't even have that. So now we assume that these Ice Shamans are also elite warriors on par with Swordmasters, Executions, Greatswords, Templeguard, and the like, who also have such a mastery of their powers as to create mystical ice weaponry. Oh, AND these Ice Shamans, who are so critical to the everyday function of Kislev Proper, are marched in a regiment in the middle of battlefields to potentially be picked off by Skinks with Blowpipes.
Every angle you look at this from your assumptions fall apart. Furthermore, I'd love to see ACTUAL PRINTED LORE that states ANYTHING you're claiming. Not a wiki where someone is paraphrasing, not some 3P garbage fluff piece, ACTUAL PRINTED GW MATERIAL that backs up your outlandish claim.
Well, you'll have it when the new book eventually comes out. Does it make it acceptable then?
Realm of the Ice Queen pg 104-105
The ice witches of Kislev are feared and respected throughout the Old World. They are the darkest winter, the coldest ice, and the cruellest blizzard, and few can bear their presence for long. But being an ice witch is more than simply practicing Ice Magic and defending Kislev from its foes. Ice witches of an ancient sisterhood that has long influenced and often ruled the Gospodar tribe—and still does to this day. They are in touch with the wintry spirits of the land and the frozen flows of magic surging through it; thus, they work hard to preserve the old ways and ancient places, keen to ensure their pristine magic remains unsullied and pure.
Will have a look for more when back from work but these seem to be a good building block.....again we are unsure of what period in Kislevs history this is set in are we not?
I think they are leaning more into the steppe archer aesthetic, of which apparently Kislev had some incorporated into their army? (Perhaps in a shout out to the Golden Horde, or the Kosacks)
You're already exaggerating the scale. Heavily focused on Ice Magic is not accurate. Having female Ice Shamans influencing politicians is a DRASTIC difference from a mass number of Elsas flinging Ice Avalanches down on armies,
I'm open to the idea that these models could look like they fit in, assuming that there are more models that fit in the middle between the old Kislev aesthetic and this, but as it is, they look like they should be part of Araby or whatever the Warhammer-version of Persia is rather than Kislev.
I think that what everyone knows, is that GW won't sell anything that looks like a historical counterpart, where someone could go and buy some historical range to take its place. GW isn't going to lean in on Renaissance Europe, or Cossacks, or even old Kislev (Winged Hussars), since they have clear historical counterparts. Oh, and don't forget the wonky naming conventions, just so there's no confusion.
Some people will buy them, some people won't, and if enough of the oldhammer/WHFB players don't buy in, then the line fails, and GW confirms that there was no market before the AoS switch, even though it was all mismanaged and poorly executed at the time.
I think the concept art looks fine, for a video game, or for a new skirmish game by some indie company. For GW to use that as an example of "Old World", doesn't pass the glance test for me, and the more it looks like WoW, or other video games, then the less likely I am to buy in. Its already so far out on the horizon, I really can't be fussed. Besides, I have so much Bret stuff, DElf, Empire, and Elves, that I'm not GW's target audience anyway. Fortunately, there are enough historicals, and other major companies making fantasy models, that I can pick and choose how to fill out my armies, and at least make them coherent in that way.
I am a bit confused by Kislev. They have Polish winged hussars and Mongolian horse archers. I think the new ice guard fit with the horse archers. The hats and weapons look in line. Though I prefer the winged hussars. I do like the ice guard.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.
Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.
All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.
It's not change, per se. It's about an expansive IP encompassing multiple mediums, and individuals interfacing with said IP in different ways and developing their own experiences and headcanons.
So in other words, absolutely no one is going to like this release because everyone has their own headcanon and history and no one is going to be pleased. Sounds about right then.
Each of us lives in his or her own reality. And yes, if recent years in pop culture have taught us anything, it's that returning to old IP is fraught with peril and nerdrage. Soooooo much nerdrage.
Cruentus wrote:
Some people will buy them, some people won't, and if enough of the oldhammer/WHFB players don't buy in, then the line fails, and GW confirms that there was no market before the AoS switch, even though it was all mismanaged and poorly executed at the time.
I dont think you'll need to worry about that- I'm sure there will tons of people who will buy the models for proxies and conversions for AoS and 40k
One of the inherent issues they have to navigate is Old World Warhammer being such a long-standing IP that there's a lot of variety between aesthetic. Everyone has 'their' concept of the Old World across various editions and any disconnect from that on an individual basis is going to spoil the nostalgic marketability that they're surely looking for with a lot of players. GW have to be careful to hit a middle ground or it will surely fall flat.
For me, the Kislev art would fit in fine with the 8th Edition aesthetic had it been presented then. That's not 'my' era of Warhammer though and, probably selfishly, I'd be more excited if I thought they were going to lean into the 4th/5th Edition look (with modern production quality of course). Shadow of the Horned Rat era style in minature form. That's my nostalgia pop.
Given this looks very much to be tied to Specialist Games, I'd be surprised if that's not at least nominally the period of Warhammer they're developing from, at least in the look of it, given Necromumda and Blood Bowl have, more or less, taken that early to mid 90s vibe and given it a facelift.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.
Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.
All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.
It's not change, per se. It's about an expansive IP encompassing multiple mediums, and individuals interfacing with said IP in different ways and developing their own experiences and headcanons.
So in other words, absolutely no one is going to like this release because everyone has their own headcanon and history and no one is going to be pleased. Sounds about right then.
Each of us lives in his or her own reality. And yes, if recent years in pop culture have taught us anything, it's that returning to old IP is fraught with peril and nerdrage. Soooooo much nerdrage.
Equally its taught us that the nerdrage doesn't matter, recycling IPs makes money regardless of complaints. So not really much peril.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.
Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.
All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.
It's not change, per se. It's about an expansive IP encompassing multiple mediums, and individuals interfacing with said IP in different ways and developing their own experiences and headcanons.
So in other words, absolutely no one is going to like this release because everyone has their own headcanon and history and no one is going to be pleased. Sounds about right then.
Each of us lives in his or her own reality. And yes, if recent years in pop culture have taught us anything, it's that returning to old IP is fraught with peril and nerdrage. Soooooo much nerdrage.
Equally its taught us that the nerdrage doesn't matter, recycling IPs makes money regardless of complaints. So not really much peril.
Terminator: Dark Fate and Ghostbusters 2016 says the "not much peril"-part is wrong.
I think we can easily create a list of nostalgia-based stuff that underperformed, however. Sometimes they manage it by smearing the fan service on really thickly.
Smokestack wrote: I am a bit confused by Kislev. They have Polish winged hussars and Mongolian horse archers. I think the new ice guard fit with the horse archers. The hats and weapons look in line. Though I prefer the winged hussars. I do like the ice guard.
Those horse archers aren’t Mongolian. They’re based on renaissance era Cossacks.
The entire Kislev aesthetic is just a mishmash of Eastern European cultures and Steppe peoples. They are not designed to represent one single culture like the Empire (German Landsknecht) or Brettonia (Angevin Empire)
Yeah. And mixing polish and russian aesthetics is as unsensitive as you can get but is better to not think about that very much. But the same happens with Lizardmen for example, they are just the generic vision of how we see those cultures, when in reality they had a ton of differences that are obvious to people that has studied them.
I don't say thats a bad thing, mixing different similar cultures in a "pop" version of those culture. We do it with everything.
Terminator: Dark Fate and Ghostbusters 2016 says the "not much peril"-part is wrong.
Hardly. It just means you can still make a bad product independently of the nostalgia value. A movie isn't just an mishmash of improv scenes edited together. Similarly, a setting reboot isn't just doing the exact same thing over again and expecting the old audience to be enough or that new fans will appear out of the ether. Both need to be pulled in, and old fans need to realize that 'exactly the same' isn't going to happen- largely because it wouldn't be enough.
going back to actual Warhammer lore as was requested:
Realm of the Ice Queen page 27 - some relevant extracts
The Ice Witches: One of the most famed and feared political groups in Kislev is the ice witches. Women of great magical power, of whom Tzarina is their most famous member, they command the very elements and bring to bear the might of the land in defence of their great nation.
pg 46
The ice witches of Kislev are more than just women with the ability channel the Ancient Widow’s cold flows; they are an organised sisterhood who works together to achieve shared goals. Formed over a thousand years ago by the Khan-Queens, the ice witches have manoeuvred their way into influencing almost all matters in Kislev. They strive to ensure almost nothing is beyond their reach. They suppress competing philosophies and magic and promote those sympathetic to their causes.
The Gospodars have long been influenced by their ice witches, and as they are entrenched into the ruling caste of Kislev, this dominance is unlikely to change soon. Further, many Gospodar communities across Kislev are watched over and advised by ice witches, and most can make demonstrable shows of their devastating powers if invaders arrive. Thus, the witches are very popular, though most Kislevites are still wary of them
From these influential positions, the witches have worked tirelessly to become entrenched in Kislevite society, manoeuvre their number into positions of power, and ensure their sisters are heeded. Now, they are almost always listened to and often obeyed. Their influence in Kislev is almost unrivalled.
Creating an Ice Guard formed from some of the Ice Witches seems another step in their influence - they are almost Lahmian in some of their tactics
Mr Morden wrote: going back to actual Warhammer lore as was requested:
Realm of the Ice Queen page 27 - some relevant extracts
The Ice Witches: One of the most famed and feared political groups in Kislev is the ice witches. Women of great magical power, of whom Tzarina is their most famous member, they command the very elements and bring to bear the might of the land in defence of their great nation.
pg 46
The ice witches of Kislev are more than just women with the ability channel the Ancient Widow’s cold flows; they are an organised sisterhood who works together to achieve shared goals. Formed over a thousand years ago by the Khan-Queens, the ice witches have manoeuvred their way into influencing almost all matters in Kislev. They strive to ensure almost nothing is beyond their reach. They suppress competing philosophies and magic and promote those sympathetic to their causes.
The Gospodars have long been influenced by their ice witches, and as they are entrenched into the ruling caste of Kislev, this dominance is unlikely to change soon. Further, many Gospodar communities across Kislev are watched over and advised by ice witches, and most can make demonstrable shows of their devastating powers if invaders arrive. Thus, the witches are very popular, though most Kislevites are still wary of them
From these influential positions, the witches have worked tirelessly to become entrenched in Kislevite society, manoeuvre their number into positions of power, and ensure their sisters are heeded. Now, they are almost always listened to and often obeyed. Their influence in Kislev is almost unrivalled.
Creating an Ice Guard formed from some of the Ice Witches seems another step in their influence - they are almost Lahmian in some of their tactics
I put in bold the part this doesn't support and in italics those it does support :
Mentlegen324 wrote:In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.
Honestly, all the lore I've seen on Ice Witches sells me that they would just work SO MUCH better as characters than as a unit.
Mr Morden wrote: going back to actual Warhammer lore as was requested:
Realm of the Ice Queen page 27 - some relevant extracts
Spoiler:
The Ice Witches: One of the most famed and feared political groups in Kislev is the ice witches. Women of great magical power, of whom Tzarina is their most famous member, they command the very elements and bring to bear the might of the land in defence of their great nation.
pg 46
The ice witches of Kislev are more than just women with the ability channel the Ancient Widow’s cold flows; they are an organised sisterhood who works together to achieve shared goals. Formed over a thousand years ago by the Khan-Queens, the ice witches have manoeuvred their way into influencing almost all matters in Kislev. They strive to ensure almost nothing is beyond their reach. They suppress competing philosophies and magic and promote those sympathetic to their causes.
The Gospodars have long been influenced by their ice witches, and as they are entrenched into the ruling caste of Kislev, this dominance is unlikely to change soon. Further, many Gospodar communities across Kislev are watched over and advised by ice witches, and most can make demonstrable shows of their devastating powers if invaders arrive. Thus, the witches are very popular, though most Kislevites are still wary of them
From these influential positions, the witches have worked tirelessly to become entrenched in Kislevite society, manoeuvre their number into positions of power, and ensure their sisters are heeded. Now, they are almost always listened to and often obeyed. Their influence in Kislev is almost unrivalled.
Creating an Ice Guard formed from some of the Ice Witches seems another step in their influence - they are almost Lahmian in some of their tactics
Well, I'd say those passages definitely keep underlining how organized and powerful the witches are, no matter what people's headcanons may be. So the idea of some kind of bodyguard unit/militarized unit of lower level witches doesn't seem worth the pages of anguish we've seen here. People are 100% allowed not to LIKE it. That's fine. But I have a hard time seeing how any neutral observer would think this new unit is some kind of major fluff betrayal.
I remember similar debates ages ago when the Brettonians got Pegasus Knights, that GW was going all magic-rich high fantasy rather than magic-poor low fantasy. It only got worse as baby Griffion Knights and other stuff showed up.
No matter, no one's tearing up your old books or setting fire to your old armies, but it's been clear for a while GW wanted a more distinct Olde Worlde rather than historical armies with a stray wizard or dragon.
Even before the Chapter House suit and IPR madness.
I put in bold the part this doesn't support and in italics those it does support :
Mentlegen324 wrote:
In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.
Honestly, all the lore I've seen on Ice Witches sells me that they would just work SO MUCH better as characters than as a unit.
Ok same source :
Only women can be ice witches:
The ice witches guard many prophecies and legends. One claims a male witch will one day taint the pristine flows of Ice Magic, changing it forever. So strong is the ice witches’ fear of a male witch that ever since the days of Tzarina Shoika, men have been banned from becoming spellcasters in Kislev. This decree has been justified with claims that men are unsuitable for magic and will surely fall to corruption, and these beliefs are now strongly held by all levels of society. To this day, male hedge wizards are tracked down and killed by the state. Or if they are noble, they have their magical capabilities removed by witches using a ritual similar to Pacification in the Empire.
Ice witches power
Upon her ascension to the throne of Kislev, it is said the Bokha Palaces grew a new wing, hundreds of yards in length and formed entirely of glittering ice.
Women of great magical power, of whom Tzarina is their most famous member, they command the very elements and bring to bear the might of the land in defence of their great nation. They are a strange breed, being physically and spiritually linked to the seasons, growing weaker in the summer and stronger in the winter
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I remember similar debates ages ago when the Brettonians got Pegasus Knights, that GW was going all magic-rich high fantasy rather than magic-poor low fantasy. It only got worse as baby Griffion Knights and other stuff showed up.
No matter, no one's tearing up your old books or setting fire to your old armies, but it's been clear for a while GW wanted a more distinct Olde Worlde rather than historical armies with a stray wizard or dragon.
Even before the Chapter House suit and IPR madness.
Nonsense!
I played a game of 4th Ed during 8th Ed, and the GW Thought Police burst in, burnt my old books, any models over six months old, then nailed my buttocks to my face!
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I remember similar debates ages ago when the Brettonians got Pegasus Knights, that GW was going all magic-rich high fantasy rather than magic-poor low fantasy. It only got worse as baby Griffion Knights and other stuff showed up.
No matter, no one's tearing up your old books or setting fire to your old armies, but it's been clear for a while GW wanted a more distinct Olde Worlde rather than historical armies with a stray wizard or dragon.
Even before the Chapter House suit and IPR madness.
Nonsense!
I played a game of 4th Ed during 8th Ed, and the GW Thought Police burst in, burnt my old books, any models over six months old, then nailed my buttocks to my face!
We've spoken about this before, do we have to get the chart out again?
Fortunately, the RPG book on Kislev was available through Humble Bundle. This thread has made me eager to read it.
Other good Kislev material includes the Ambassador Cheonicles (an omnibus or The Ambassador and Ursun’s Teeth), the third and fifth Gotrek books, and, to a lesser degree, Riders of the Dead. Now’s a great time to read up on the frozen kingdom.
I guess its a good time for me to work on my Kislev units as well.
5 Gryphon Legion
5 Winged Lancers
19 Kossars (Full command)
1 Boyar on foot
1 Boyar mounted (Which is just the Ostland Elector Count I use as a mounted Boyar)
Might finally have an excuse to paint all these guys.
gorgon wrote: Well, I'd say those passages definitely keep underlining how organized and powerful the witches are, no matter what people's headcanons may be. So the idea of some kind of bodyguard unit/militarized unit of lower level witches doesn't seem worth the pages of anguish we've seen here.
It always describe them as either leading directly, or influencing behind the scene. That's totally at odds with a militarized unit.
gorgon wrote: But I have a hard time seeing how any neutral observer would think this new unit is some kind of major fluff betrayal.
It's not breaking the lore, it's just not fitting the previous tone and aesthetics of the setting. Again, see my point about how such a unit is really a new thing for WFB.
Am I the weird one here for seeing both extremes of the fanbase as a bit mental right now?
Jesus! For what it's worth yeah I had a huge fit when they blew up WHFB but it's coming back and we're getting rank and file. Honestly that's about all I need aside from bringing most of the old armies back.
I always imagined Kislev as more of a Russian force than an east Asian force but this is what we're getting so far. It's just concept art you guys. At least GW might be willing to hear us out. I mean maybe they're not super great but I dunno that they're as bad as they used to be. Maybe let them know the themes aren't to your liking.
For me I started WHFB late 7th edition and i thought magical elf cavalry was bs but more due to shooting not being that great and magic resist boosting invulnerable saves (need i remind you mat ward wrote probably all of the elves). Anyway i don't mind magical units but that's just me. I mind how rules can stack together to make something insanely broken. Also this isn't really like AoS so much as the end of 8th edition WHFB.
Even if WHFB gets AoS'ified to a degree that's not fully the worst thing as long as they keep some of the complexity and movement. Let's also be real here. End Times and to a lesser extent the elf armies (most dark elves and wood elves as well as BotWD) were really dumb. They weren't top tier faction of 7th ed 40k dumb (looking at you tau every time i fought you with dark eldar) but they were still really dumb.
gorgon wrote: Well, I'd say those passages definitely keep underlining how organized and powerful the witches are, no matter what people's headcanons may be. So the idea of some kind of bodyguard unit/militarized unit of lower level witches doesn't seem worth the pages of anguish we've seen here.
It always describe them as either leading directly, or influencing behind the scene. That's totally at odds with a militarized unit.
gorgon wrote: But I have a hard time seeing how any neutral observer would think this new unit is some kind of major fluff betrayal.
It's not breaking the lore, it's just not fitting the previous tone and aesthetics of the setting.
Again, see my point about how such a unit is really a new thing for WFB.
Except people have given you multiple examples of how it isn't. Elite magical units existed, and were increasing in number in 7th and 8th.
Kanluwen wrote: Anyone genuinely saying Wood Elves were anywhere near broken at the tail end of WHFB is a loon.
Did you play 8th edition army book Wood Elves? They were broken and no i won't apologize. Up until their 8th edition army book wood elves were like the absolute bottom tier in power but in 8th ed army book you could see noobs beat pros. The could jump from forest to forest, shoot with lots of bs arrows and outflank basically and just move all around you. If you couldn't shoot them off the board with a gun-line army it was hard esp. if you lacked movement. I played skaven and we were slow and all the negative to hit modifiers to shooting meant we had issues fighting them unless we used lots of warp lightning spells or something and even then in 2,000-2,500 pts games you needed two level 4 wizards and lots of level 2 warlocks weren't really ideal.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Fortunately, the RPG book on Kislev was available through Humble Bundle. This thread has made me eager to read it.
Other good Kislev material includes the Ambassador Cheonicles (an omnibus or The Ambassador and Ursun’s Teeth), the third and fifth Gotrek books, and, to a lesser degree, Riders of the Dead. Now’s a great time to read up on the frozen kingdom.
Kanluwen wrote: Anyone genuinely saying Wood Elves were anywhere near broken at the tail end of WHFB is a loon.
Did you play 8th edition army book Wood Elves? They were broken and no i won't apologize. Up until their 8th edition army book wood elves were like the absolute bottom tier in power but in 8th ed army book you could see noobs beat pros. The could jump from forest to forest, shoot with lots of bs arrows and outflank basically and just move all around you. If you couldn't shoot them off the board with a gun-line army it was hard esp. if you lacked movement. I played skaven and we were slow and all the negative to hit modifiers to shooting meant we had issues fighting them unless we used lots of warp lightning spells or something and even then in 2,000-2,500 pts games you needed two level 4 wizards and lots of level 2 warlocks weren't really ideal.
Hell, when the 6th Ed. book dropped the Wood Elves were top tier and stayed that way through most of 7th.
BroodSpawn wrote:So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?
So you're assuming that everyone wants a return to the bloated trainwreck of 8th Ed. with Kirby's incompetent helming. Nice try. Me personally I'd like a swing back to 6th, when sales were healthy, the barrier to entry was low, and all it would have taken was some effort in advertising to move the game (and 40K at the time) off of High Street and into the public mainstream.
All in all this is simply a thematic retcon, it makes no sense with established lore and serves to do nothing except acclimate WTOW players to AOS and potentially have a playable faction for AOS players. I can see it now, the army formed to fight for the 9th wind of magic, the wind of Ice, also known as the Realm of Brrrrrrrrrrr.
Wait, that name isn't copyright friendly enough. Throw in some random "h"s.
In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.
You're already exaggerating the scale. Heavily focused on Ice Magic is not accurate. Having female Ice Shamans influencing politicians is a DRASTIC difference from a mass number of Elsas flinging Ice Avalanches down on armies, or somehow having Ice Magic as interwoven into their society as to affect everyday tools. High Elves, who incorporate magic on a much higher scale, don't even have that. So now we assume that these Ice Shamans are also elite warriors on par with Swordmasters, Executions, Greatswords, Templeguard, and the like, who also have such a mastery of their powers as to create mystical ice weaponry. Oh, AND these Ice Shamans, who are so critical to the everyday function of Kislev Proper, are marched in a regiment in the middle of battlefields to potentially be picked off by Skinks with Blowpipes.
Every angle you look at this from your assumptions fall apart. Furthermore, I'd love to see ACTUAL PRINTED LORE that states ANYTHING you're claiming. Not a wiki where someone is paraphrasing, not some 3P garbage fluff piece, ACTUAL PRINTED GW MATERIAL that backs up your outlandish claim.
Well, you'll have it when the new book eventually comes out. Does it make it acceptable then?
If GW retcons their material, all the wailing in the world won't change it.
What ALSO won't change is if something is thematically inaccurate. Think back to Malekith being the true Phoenix King, but he just didn't cook long enough. (I have to admit I picture him with one of those temp buttons like on a turkey except it's the Phoenix Crown. Suddenly in End Times... POP!!!! "Cockadoodle doo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!") That's pretty massive and breaks a TON of established lore. When he tried to escape the Flames in every other version of that event, the flames wouldn't let him go ANYWHERE except the exact way he came in. Is it the way things are now? Yup. Did it go against theme and lore? MASSIVELY, and no amount of GW yes manning will change that.
Mr Morden wrote:Multiple quotes and sources
You did a massive amount of leg work and I greatly appreciate it. However, nothing in there lends itself to a unit of Ice Mage elite combat warriors. If anything, you may see an Ice Witch pop up to defend Kislev or to affect policy somewhere in one of the courts of Kislev. All things we've already discussed, and nothing new to make this unit any more thematically accurate to Old World lore. I do appreciate you finding all this, though.
I think this is affecting a lot of the discussion in here, honestly, and it's kind of infuriating. Would a Tactical Squad that's half heavy weapons being introduced suddenly be okay because you could arm a squad like that in Dawn Of War?
You did a massive amount of leg work and I greatly appreciate it. However, nothing in there lends itself to a unit of Ice Mage elite combat warriors. If anything, you may see an Ice Witch pop up to defend Kislev or to affect policy somewhere in one of the courts of Kislev. All things we've already discussed, and nothing new to make this unit any more thematically accurate to Old World lore. I do appreciate you finding all this, though.
Seconded, I am hardly familiar with the RPG information beyond some snippets encountered over the years, so this was an interesting read. At the same time, it only reinforces that these are (openly or covertly) the very political elite. As if Lord Kroak would not be guarded by Temple Guard, but by an actual unit of other Slann. While such a gathering could take place under the most desparate circumstances to ward of cataclysmic threats, it would hardly be a common occurrence. Almost all the time, the nation would be better served by having these leaders influencing matters elsewhere.
Indeed, contrast this concept with that of the Gryphon Legion: originally the bodyguard of the Tzar, they now wander far and wide as mercenaries. They are still obliged to return to defend Kislev if necessary, but the lore expressly states that this is unusual as most threats can be dealt with by the Ungol cavalry and Winged Lancers. If slightly better cavalry are often deemed not be needed, there must be very few circumstances where the Ice Queen and half her coven of Ice Witches take to the field.
You did a massive amount of leg work and I greatly appreciate it. However, nothing in there lends itself to a unit of Ice Mage elite combat warriors. If anything, you may see an Ice Witch pop up to defend Kislev or to affect policy somewhere in one of the courts of Kislev. All things we've already discussed, and nothing new to make this unit any more thematically accurate to Old World lore. I do appreciate you finding all this, though.
Seconded, I am hardly familiar with the RPG information beyond some snippets encountered over the years, so this was an interesting read. At the same time, it only reinforces that these are (openly or covertly) the very political elite. As if Lord Kroak would not be guarded by Temple Guard, but by an actual unit of other Slann. While such a gathering could take place under the most desparate circumstances to ward of cataclysmic threats, it would hardly be a common occurrence. Almost all the time, the nation would be better served by having these leaders influencing matters elsewhere.
Indeed, contrast this concept with that of the Gryphon Legion: originally the bodyguard of the Tzar, they now wander far and wide as mercenaries. They are still obliged to return to defend Kislev if necessary, but the lore expressly states that this is unusual as most threats can be dealt with by the Ungol cavalry and Winged Lancers. If slightly better cavalry are often deemed not be needed, there must be very few circumstances where the Ice Queen and half her coven of Ice Witches take to the field.
That’s would be rare, yes.
What wasn’t rare though was mazdamundi riding his steggadon into battle being supported by a host of slaan.
Also, it had to be a pretty big event for any slaan to get involved as they were generally too valuable to risk harm.
Kanluwen wrote: Anyone genuinely saying Wood Elves were anywhere near broken at the tail end of WHFB is a loon.
Did you play 8th edition army book Wood Elves? They were broken and no i won't apologize. Up until their 8th edition army book wood elves were like the absolute bottom tier in power but in 8th ed army book you could see noobs beat pros. The could jump from forest to forest, shoot with lots of bs arrows and outflank basically and just move all around you. If you couldn't shoot them off the board with a gun-line army it was hard esp. if you lacked movement. I played skaven and we were slow and all the negative to hit modifiers to shooting meant we had issues fighting them unless we used lots of warp lightning spells or something and even then in 2,000-2,500 pts games you needed two level 4 wizards and lots of level 2 warlocks weren't really ideal.
Hell, when the 6th Ed. book dropped the Wood Elves were top tier and stayed that way through most of 7th.
BroodSpawn wrote:So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?
So you're assuming that everyone wants a return to the bloated trainwreck of 8th Ed. with Kirby's incompetent helming. Nice try. Me personally I'd like a swing back to 6th, when sales were healthy, the barrier to entry was low, and all it would have taken was some effort in advertising to move the game (and 40K at the time) off of High Street and into the public mainstream.
All in all this is simply a thematic retcon, it makes no sense with established lore and serves to do nothing except acclimate WTOW players to AOS and potentially have a playable faction for AOS players. I can see it now, the army formed to fight for the 9th wind of magic, the wind of Ice, also known as the Realm of Brrrrrrrrrrr.
Wait, that name isn't copyright friendly enough. Throw in some random "h"s.
In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.
You're already exaggerating the scale. Heavily focused on Ice Magic is not accurate. Having female Ice Shamans influencing politicians is a DRASTIC difference from a mass number of Elsas flinging Ice Avalanches down on armies, or somehow having Ice Magic as interwoven into their society as to affect everyday tools. High Elves, who incorporate magic on a much higher scale, don't even have that. So now we assume that these Ice Shamans are also elite warriors on par with Swordmasters, Executions, Greatswords, Templeguard, and the like, who also have such a mastery of their powers as to create mystical ice weaponry. Oh, AND these Ice Shamans, who are so critical to the everyday function of Kislev Proper, are marched in a regiment in the middle of battlefields to potentially be picked off by Skinks with Blowpipes.
Every angle you look at this from your assumptions fall apart. Furthermore, I'd love to see ACTUAL PRINTED LORE that states ANYTHING you're claiming. Not a wiki where someone is paraphrasing, not some 3P garbage fluff piece, ACTUAL PRINTED GW MATERIAL that backs up your outlandish claim.
Well, you'll have it when the new book eventually comes out. Does it make it acceptable then?
If GW retcons their material, all the wailing in the world won't change it.
What ALSO won't change is if something is thematically inaccurate. Think back to Malekith being the true Phoenix King, but he just didn't cook long enough. (I have to admit I picture him with one of those temp buttons like on a turkey except it's the Phoenix Crown. Suddenly in End Times... POP!!!! "Cockadoodle doo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!") That's pretty massive and breaks a TON of established lore. When he tried to escape the Flames in every other version of that event, the flames wouldn't let him go ANYWHERE except the exact way he came in. Is it the way things are now? Yup. Did it go against theme and lore? MASSIVELY, and no amount of GW yes manning will change that.
Mr Morden wrote:Multiple quotes and sources
You did a massive amount of leg work and I greatly appreciate it. However, nothing in there lends itself to a unit of Ice Mage elite combat warriors. If anything, you may see an Ice Witch pop up to defend Kislev or to affect policy somewhere in one of the courts of Kislev. All things we've already discussed, and nothing new to make this unit any more thematically accurate to Old World lore. I do appreciate you finding all this, though.
So this is a case of unless it's exactly how "I" want and it and how "I" see it, it's wrong and will always be wrong. Fair enough
I think this is affecting a lot of the discussion in here, honestly, and it's kind of infuriating. Would a Tactical Squad that's half heavy weapons being introduced suddenly be okay because you could arm a squad like that in Dawn Of War?
The thing is, Warhammer is much more than just the tabletop. It has grow a ton, and we can say with things like Blood Ravens being canoniced and having miniatures, how the feedback between different forms of the universe happen all the time. I wouldn't be surprised to see some total war units become miniatures in this version of The Old World. (And as others have pointed out, miniature limitations were the primary reason for many of the design choices back then. Should I remember how, no matter how many people try to arguee the contrary, Greater Demons were always as big as they are now in the fluff? Just look at any drawing of them. The metal dwarves were just what they could do at the time, not the "proper" representation of them)
And BTW I know we are making so much noise about this because we have literally nothing else to speak about the old world and is the first tangible piece of information GW has given us. But all of this reminds me a little about the Kelemorph. How a random guy having 3 pistols that were better than most pistols out there was extremely anti-canon and would ruin everything and it was horrible. And then everybody forgott about his existence because at the end of the day it was irrelevant.
But I have to be honest. Normally I despise a little bit the fantasy "Purists" out there after what many of them did with the release of the Ogre Kingdoms. One of the coolest races of Fantasy, introduced in one of the best background expansions of the whole life of fantasy, labeled as "They don't fit in", or unneccesary, etc...
From that point onwards I realized that many fantasy fans are like Heroes of Might and Magic Russian fans. They just want the same game (Heroes 3) done again and again and again, and revere little minutiate as keystones of the feeling of the universe, losing the forest for the threes. They would have the game dead than let them evolve, improve, try new things, some good, some bad, but growing. I was like that once with Warcraft but I grow out of it.
To this day, male hedge wizards are tracked down and killed by the state.
Huh, I don't suppose there's a warhammer Rasputin lurking around, who survived getting sorcerer hunted and is now mad as hell? Also, don't Bretonnians do the same thing?
In the case of bretonnians, the elves just take girls and boys with magic affinity. The girls come back as Damsels, the boys didn't . It was rumored about a magic unit of wizards or something like that but as we all know bretonnia died before the end times even happened.
The thing is, Warhammer is much more than just the tabletop. It has grow a ton, and we can say with things like Blood Ravens being canoniced and having miniatures, how the feedback between different forms of the universe happen all the time. I wouldn't be surprised to see some total war units become miniatures in this version of The Old World. (And as others have pointed out, miniature limitations were the primary reason for many of the design choices back then. Should I remember how, no matter how many people try to arguee the contrary, Greater Demons were always as big as they are now in the fluff? Just look at any drawing of them. The metal dwarves were just what they could do at the time, not the "proper" representation of them)
Indeed, how far back should we constrain model restraints? Should Magnus have remained in his epic form and not been updated at all?
Spoiler:
I think this is affecting a lot of the discussion in here, honestly, and it's kind of infuriating. Would a Tactical Squad that's half heavy weapons being introduced suddenly be okay because you could arm a squad like that in Dawn Of War?
Some things have clearly been updated because of Dawn of War. Two Handed Daemon Hammers for example didn't exist at the time and it fit the universe enough that it existed afterwords.
Jumping Terminator Armor not so much.
Also we are talking about aesthetics and not even a change to units in general.
To this day, male hedge wizards are tracked down and killed by the state.
Huh, I don't suppose there's a warhammer Rasputin lurking around, who survived getting sorcerer hunted and is now mad as hell?
Also, don't Bretonnians do the same thing?
Dark Elves have pretty much the same prophercy policy so no-one can threaten Malakaith
You did a massive amount of leg work and I greatly appreciate it. However, nothing in there lends itself to a unit of Ice Mage elite combat warriors. If anything, you may see an Ice Witch pop up to defend Kislev or to affect policy somewhere in one of the courts of Kislev. All things we've already discussed, and nothing new to make this unit any more thematically accurate to Old World lore. I do appreciate you finding all this, though.
Seconded, I am hardly familiar with the RPG information beyond some snippets encountered over the years, so this was an interesting read. At the same time, it only reinforces that these are (openly or covertly) the very political elite. As if Lord Kroak would not be guarded by Temple Guard, but by an actual unit of other Slann. While such a gathering could take place under the most desparate circumstances to ward of cataclysmic threats, it would hardly be a common occurrence. Almost all the time, the nation would be better served by having these leaders influencing matters elsewhere.
Indeed, contrast this concept with that of the Gryphon Legion: originally the bodyguard of the Tzar, they now wander far and wide as mercenaries. They are still obliged to return to defend Kislev if necessary, but the lore expressly states that this is unusual as most threats can be dealt with by the Ungol cavalry and Winged Lancers. If slightly better cavalry are often deemed not be needed, there must be very few circumstances where the Ice Queen and half her coven of Ice Witches take to the field.
I was more looking at answering (if possible) the specific questions that were raised about what Ice Witches definately are.
So there is lore support for them being an incredably powerful and overt element of Kislev society, with the head of their Sisterhood ruling the nation.
The look to ensure that no men wield magic and enlist the aid of the state in this.
They are capable of etremely powerful magic and often use this in the defence of the nation and/or for their own needs.
They are also not a small organisation I can quote if needed but they are widespread and quite numerous.
This leads me to think that an elite guard element could have existed, or could be introduced into Kislev society with no real issue, especially with younger witches who then have the support of their sisters in battle or perhaps they have more limited powers so are nofull witches but have enough power to be useful.
Perhaps its from the early days when the Tzarina wanted those she could trust, or maybe its around the time of the Great War against Chaos or perhaps following the Storm of Chaos.....lots of interesting possibbilities for me anyway.
To this day, male hedge wizards are tracked down and killed by the state.
Huh, I don't suppose there's a warhammer Rasputin lurking around, who survived getting sorcerer hunted and is now mad as hell?
Also, don't Bretonnians do the same thing?
Dark Elves have pretty much the same prophercy policy so no-one can threaten Malakaith
You did a massive amount of leg work and I greatly appreciate it. However, nothing in there lends itself to a unit of Ice Mage elite combat warriors. If anything, you may see an Ice Witch pop up to defend Kislev or to affect policy somewhere in one of the courts of Kislev. All things we've already discussed, and nothing new to make this unit any more thematically accurate to Old World lore. I do appreciate you finding all this, though.
Seconded, I am hardly familiar with the RPG information beyond some snippets encountered over the years, so this was an interesting read. At the same time, it only reinforces that these are (openly or covertly) the very political elite. As if Lord Kroak would not be guarded by Temple Guard, but by an actual unit of other Slann. While such a gathering could take place under the most desparate circumstances to ward of cataclysmic threats, it would hardly be a common occurrence. Almost all the time, the nation would be better served by having these leaders influencing matters elsewhere.
Indeed, contrast this concept with that of the Gryphon Legion: originally the bodyguard of the Tzar, they now wander far and wide as mercenaries. They are still obliged to return to defend Kislev if necessary, but the lore expressly states that this is unusual as most threats can be dealt with by the Ungol cavalry and Winged Lancers. If slightly better cavalry are often deemed not be needed, there must be very few circumstances where the Ice Queen and half her coven of Ice Witches take to the field.
I was more looking at answering (if possible) the specific questions that were raised about what Ice Witches definately are.
So there is lore support for them being an incredably powerful and overt element of Kislev society, with the head of their Sisterhood ruling the nation.
The look to ensure that no men wield magic and enlist the aid of the state in this.
They are capable of etremely powerful magic and often use this in the defence of the nation and/or for their own needs.
They are also not a small organisation I can quote if needed but they are widespread and quite numerous.
This leads me to think that an elite guard element could have existed, or could be introduced into Kislev society with no real issue, especially with younger witches who then have the support of their sisters in battle or perhaps they have more limited powers so are nofull witches but have enough power to be useful.
Perhaps its from the early days when the Tzarina wanted those she could trust, or maybe its around the time of the Great War against Chaos or perhaps following the Storm of Chaos.....lots of interesting possibbilities for me anyway.
This is what I was trying to get at, really. Sure, we haven't got lore to directly support the existence of this new unit, but to me there aren't really any specific aspects of them that are extremely out of place with the already existing Kislev Lore - we already have a group of Kislev women who are Ice Magic users that are close to the Ice Court, who seek to defend Kislev physically and influence events, with manifesting ice weapons being a potential ability they already have. All the individual lore elements of them already seem to be supported to some extent, the only thing that's a divergence from what we have already know is that this is a unit of them (that we don't know the size of) and they're trained as elite guards, neither of which seem that much of a stretch.
We don't know the specifics yet - perhaps they're not able to achieve enough magical power to reach full Ice Witch status or perhaps this is just an alternate path they can take - but the existence of something like this already has the foundations needed within the Kislev lore to be a possibility.
If each new release continues a trend of over the top things that we can argue "could have existed" will the final product look like the old world at all?
I think this is affecting a lot of the discussion in here, honestly, and it's kind of infuriating. Would a Tactical Squad that's half heavy weapons being introduced suddenly be okay because you could arm a squad like that in Dawn Of War?
Some things have clearly been updated because of Dawn of War. Two Handed Daemon Hammers for example didn't exist at the time and it fit the universe enough that it existed afterwords.
I actually think that they should've introduced the Ork wartrakks from Dawn of war; those things looked awesome.
Chamberlain wrote: If each new release continues a trend of over the top things that we can argue "could have existed" will the final product look like the old world at all?
The problem with this line of reasoning is that it suggests that anything 'new' is a detriment to the design and feel of the Old World.
Let's use Bretonnian's for example. Hadn't been updated (models or mechanics) since 2003/2004. Adding something like flying Grail Knights on Hippogryphs would be pretty awesome, however it would be 'new' and 'over the top' compared to there classic design (which again, hadn't been touched in near 2 decades).
Should the decision then be that you 'can't' add something 'new' and just reskin/re-release/re-make (in the same style) the original range then... we both know it'll get panned on sites like this one for just being a re-release. But if they do add something 'new' then they also get ripped into for not respecting the setting (or variations on this line).
Someone mentioned it earlier, the old range was in the state it was partly because of the technology at the time. GW have advanced since then, allowing them now to go and do things like these Kislev models/designs that still fit into the faction as well as giving hope for suitable range updates to other factions that warrant that kind of expansion.
I can't say I love the concept art, but I don't get the concern about magic using units. One thing that never made sense to me is the seemingly binary nature of magic: either you had none, and were a pure fighter, or you had enough to be a battle wizard. It makes sense to me that some traditions would focus borderline wizards on creating units that use a handful of spells.
It might be weird to have a top notch archer/combat unit that also uses magic be from Kislev, but I also prefer super high end, high fantasy elements showing up as infantry, rather than monstrous cavalry or warmachines.
As for the somewhat predictable concerns over a female unit... in this case there's mythological precedent. The Amazons in much of greek myth lived in eastern europe or western/central asia, and are probably related to the scythian cultures, which did arm and train women to fight. Graves in their territory show that about 20% of female graves include weapons, and about 20% of warrior graves were female. Were I to guess, the short draw composite bows used on steppe ponies prior to stirrups would not give a huge advantage to men.
I generally like it when WHFB includes “high magic” units. However, I prefer that their weapons still seem functional. (I’ll never fully love Confrontation or Wrath of Kings Wolfen for this reason: their ridiculous weapons.) The Central Asian blades work for me, and an ice-coated bident might pass as a symbolic or ritualistic magic weapon. The bows still bother me, though.
Am I the only one tempted to make a not-Kislev army converted from Fireforge Mongols, Russians and Byzantines? Throw in some Frostgrave and Mantic Northerners bits, and it seems like an affordably close-enough army.
Polonius wrote: I can't say I love the concept art, but I don't get the concern about magic using units. One thing that never made sense to me is the seemingly binary nature of magic: either you had none, and were a pure fighter, or you had enough to be a battle wizard. It makes sense to me that some traditions would focus borderline wizards on creating units that use a handful of spells.
It might be weird to have a top notch archer/combat unit that also uses magic be from Kislev, but I also prefer super high end, high fantasy elements showing up as infantry, rather than monstrous cavalry or warmachines.
I suppose that could be an artifact of the old WHFB game; since Wizards were individual characters, never units, people sort of assume that the ability to use Magic at all is rare, not just a matter of the most powerful.
As for the aesthetic, I think it might be the face-concealing cloth and skirmisher/scout-looking armor that's throwing them off for me; something that looks more like a cross between an Ice Maiden and a Hussar might work better...
Polonius wrote: One thing that never made sense to me is the seemingly binary nature of magic: either you had none, and were a pure fighter, or you had enough to be a battle wizard. It makes sense to me that some traditions would focus borderline wizards on creating units that use a handful of spells.
Not if each spell attempt is very dangerous. In that case, either you decide spells are worth it, but you do focus on it a LOT, and then you can cast potent spells, or you don't, and then your weak spells are both more dangerous (less mastery of magic) and give less in return for the risk (same risk, lower reward)...
BroodSpawn wrote: The problem with this line of reasoning is that it suggests that anything 'new' is a detriment to the design and feel of the Old World.
Not everything new. Just the new things that are more over the top than everything that came before.
Polonius wrote: One thing that never made sense to me is the seemingly binary nature of magic: either you had none, and were a pure fighter, or you had enough to be a battle wizard. It makes sense to me that some traditions would focus borderline wizards on creating units that use a handful of spells.
Not if each spell attempt is very dangerous. In that case, either you decide spells are worth it, but you do focus on it a LOT, and then you can cast potent spells, or you don't, and then your weak spells are both more dangerous (less mastery of magic) and give less in return for the risk (same risk, lower reward)...
BroodSpawn wrote: The problem with this line of reasoning is that it suggests that anything 'new' is a detriment to the design and feel of the Old World.
Not everything new. Just the new things that are more over the top than everything that came before.
More over the top than everything that came before?
Also don't forget some of the low-magic - like Greater Demons only being the size they were; was due to resource limits of the material (metal). In the lore Greater Demons were always massive monstrocities. The bigger and more elaborate models we got later were only possible because by then GW had shifted too and could do plastics of that scale and could sell models way above their old rough maximum of £35 or so.
Polonius wrote: I can't say I love the concept art, but I don't get the concern about magic using units. One thing that never made sense to me is the seemingly binary nature of magic: either you had none, and were a pure fighter, or you had enough to be a battle wizard. It makes sense to me that some traditions would focus borderline wizards on creating units that use a handful of spells.
It might be weird to have a top notch archer/combat unit that also uses magic be from Kislev, but I also prefer super high end, high fantasy elements showing up as infantry, rather than monstrous cavalry or warmachines.
I suppose that could be an artifact of the old WHFB game; since Wizards were individual characters, never units, people sort of assume that the ability to use Magic at all is rare, not just a matter of the most powerful.
Wasn't there a magic casting unit way back in Vengeance of the Lichemaster at the Battle of La Maisontaal? Pretty sure Bagrian's monks were a unit of casters.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I generally like it when WHFB includes “high magic” units. However, I prefer that their weapons still seem functional. (I’ll never fully love Confrontation or Wrath of Kings Wolfen for this reason: their ridiculous weapons.) The Central Asian blades work for me, and an ice-coated bident might pass as a symbolic or ritualistic magic weapon. The bows still bother me, though.
Am I the only one tempted to make a not-Kislev army converted from Fireforge Mongols, Russians and Byzantines? Throw in some Frostgrave and Mantic Northerners bits, and it seems like an affordably close-enough army.
I have a small Kislev force using Fireforge Russians as Kossars, with Warlord Polish Lancers as Winged Lancers and a few riding toy bears as the compulsory bear cavalry.
Chamberlain wrote: If each new release continues a trend of over the top things that we can argue "could have existed" will the final product look like the old world at all?
The problem with this line of reasoning is that it suggests that anything 'new' is a detriment to the design and feel of the Old World.
Let's use Bretonnian's for example. Hadn't been updated (models or mechanics) since 2003/2004. Adding something like flying Grail Knights on Hippogryphs would be pretty awesome, however it would be 'new' and 'over the top' compared to there classic design (which again, hadn't been touched in near 2 decades).
Should the decision then be that you 'can't' add something 'new' and just reskin/re-release/re-make (in the same style) the original range then... we both know it'll get panned on sites like this one for just being a re-release. But if they do add something 'new' then they also get ripped into for not respecting the setting (or variations on this line).
Forgoworld doesn't have unlimited resources. When they launch, it's not going to be everything that was previously in the game. it's going to be about selling the new stuff. So it's totally possible that the entirety of the game will be new stuff that all sort of maybe fits in the old world.
i'm not talking about people ripping into them in a damned if they do, damned if they don't. i'm talking about how if we add together a bunch of "could have existed" units and they want to sell those units, then the game is going to not be very old world at all.
Someone mentioned it earlier, the old range was in the state it was partly because of the technology at the time. GW have advanced since then, allowing them now to go and do things like these Kislev models/designs that still fit into the faction as well as giving hope for suitable range updates to other factions that warrant that kind of expansion.
this is where things could get exciting.
Imagine if existing units that were solid parts of armies got redone with new tech. that would be much cooler than the same goblin wolf riders getting super charged mork/gork waaagh energy weapons
Mangod wrote: I suppose that could be an artifact of the old WHFB game; since Wizards were individual characters, never units, people sort of assume that the ability to use Magic at all is rare, not just a matter of the most powerful.
Wasn't there a magic casting unit way back in Vengeance of the Lichemaster at the Battle of La Maisontaal? Pretty sure Bagrian's monks were a unit of casters.
Dude, I have no idea; Vengeance of the Lichemaster is 4 years older than I am.
Overread wrote: Also don't forget some of the low-magic - like Greater Demons only being the size they were; was due to resource limits of the material (metal). In the lore Greater Demons were always massive monstrocities. The bigger and more elaborate models we got later were only possible because by then GW had shifted too and could do plastics of that scale and could sell models way above their old rough maximum of £35 or so.
Daemons were never low-magic, even if the greater daemons were small. They were literally made of magic, all of them!!
Polonius wrote: One thing that never made sense to me is the seemingly binary nature of magic: either you had none, and were a pure fighter, or you had enough to be a battle wizard. It makes sense to me that some traditions would focus borderline wizards on creating units that use a handful of spells.
Not if each spell attempt is very dangerous. In that case, either you decide spells are worth it, but you do focus on it a LOT, and then you can cast potent spells, or you don't, and then your weak spells are both more dangerous (less mastery of magic) and give less in return for the risk (same risk, lower reward)...
Thats not how it works. The "bigger" the spell the more energy tou need to use and the harder it is to get it right. Thats why big rituals were much more dangerous.
Galas wrote: Thats not how it works. The "bigger" the spell the more energy tou need to use and the harder it is to get it right. Thats why big rituals were much more dangerous.
Depends on which edition and which game (WHFB or WHFRP). At least one edition of the latter had a 'screw you' die that had to be rolled for every single spell.
I do find it a bit telling that when people attempt to justify the big ultra-high-fantasy stuff being commonplace rather than a rarity, they have to reach for late-8th/ET units(which were quite evidently coming from the same place that gave us AoS, creatively), the videogames(which include a lot of ill-fitting contrivances due to the form) or go full on Days of Yore and invoke Oldhammer stuff from a time where ~90% of the setting was essentially nothing like what the vast majority of people would recognise in the words "Warhammer Fantasy".
Magic in WHF is, for pretty much everyone except elves, either dangerous or very rare or both. Most of the bigger and more outlandish magical creatures are also quite rare. It's that quality of the IP that allows it to construct a pastiche that contains such ultra-high-magic elements alongside all the other parts without collapsing under its own weight. That's true of all the elements; none can exist in a greater proportion than any of the others can bear. Some comedy, some pop-culture references, some super-magical high fantasy concepts, but too much of any of them and the pseudohistorical "glue" of the human societies that anchor the setting and give it verisimilitude comes apart. By the same token, if you push the grimdark dirtpeasant side too far, it makes the other elements look too silly and it stops working.
It's essentially the opposite problem that AoS had in the beginning - it was all so ill-defined and mystical and OTT that essentially the only answer that was available to most questions was "erm, magic?". How did they feed people in a continent-size city without modern logistics and refridgeration - it's magic or nothing. But with WHF, the more magic and magical things you put in, and the more commonplace you make them, the more it's justifiable to ask "Well, hold on, why aren't they just using those all the time then? Why are they still living like a version of a historical culture when they could use [insert overdone tech and/or magic here] instead?".
And you know, it's possible that this is it. That they've decided to add a single late-8th/ET-style ultra-high-magic unit to each of the armies they'll be covering that don't yet have one, and the rest of the setting will remain as it was, in which case I will be happy enough. The trouble is trust. I don't trust GW, because they've already run WHF into the ground and killed it once, and I'm not convinced they understand what they did wrong. The fact they chose a brand new high-magic human unit as their first proper reveal rather than a revamp of a classic is, to me, telling. I look at the makeup of the modern company and while their business side doesn't look the same as it did in the bad old Kirby days, when it comes to WHF being brought back the creative side looks a bit worse if anything. Almost none of the "old guard" are left and certainly most if not all of the guys who had some grounding in and passion for the historical side of the pastiche are long gone, and without anyone to say "No" to the "it's fantasy fiction so literally anything goes" impulse that clearly emanates from the design studio I don't feel confident that the revived WHF is going to actually resemble the WHF that got me into wargaming and fantasy fiction.
Yodhrin wrote: they have to reach for late-8th/ET units(which were quite evidently coming from the same place that gave us AoS, creatively), the videogames(which include a lot of ill-fitting contrivances due to the form) or go full on Days of Yore and invoke Oldhammer
So basically for you Warhammer Fantasy is 6th and 7th edition. Ok. I mean thats my favourite period of Warhammer Fantasy but people should stop using it as some kind of high horse and claim that it was the golden age of fantasy or the "proper" fantasy.
And I think is obvious that without the Perry Brothers the "new" fantasy will be much muuuch less historical.
Yodhrin wrote: they have to reach for late-8th/ET units(which were quite evidently coming from the same place that gave us AoS, creatively), the videogames(which include a lot of ill-fitting contrivances due to the form) or go full on Days of Yore and invoke Oldhammer
So basically for you Warhammer Fantasy is 6th and 7th edition. Ok. I mean thats my favourite period of Warhammer Fantasy but people should stop using it as some kind of high horse and claim that it was the golden age of fantasy or the "proper" fantasy.
And I think is obvious that without the Perry Brothers the "new" fantasy will be much muuuch less historical.
When the rulebook launched with Ravening Hordes for the army lists it was most assuredly the most balanced version. Do I think it was the best? Yep, a couple fixes to 6th Ed. army books would have a totally tight edition.
Yodhrin wrote: they have to reach for late-8th/ET units(which were quite evidently coming from the same place that gave us AoS, creatively), the videogames(which include a lot of ill-fitting contrivances due to the form) or go full on Days of Yore and invoke Oldhammer
So basically for you Warhammer Fantasy is 6th and 7th edition. Ok. I mean thats my favourite period of Warhammer Fantasy but people should stop using it as some kind of high horse and claim that it was the golden age of fantasy or the "proper" fantasy.
And I think is obvious that without the Perry Brothers the "new" fantasy will be much muuuch less historical.
When the rulebook launched with Ravening Hordes for the army lists it was most assuredly the most balanced version. Do I think it was the best? Yep, a couple fixes to 6th Ed. army books would have a totally tight edition.
Out of interest what army did you play in WHFB 6th? I played Empire and I remember them being rather low tier.
Yodhrin wrote: they have to reach for late-8th/ET units(which were quite evidently coming from the same place that gave us AoS, creatively), the videogames(which include a lot of ill-fitting contrivances due to the form) or go full on Days of Yore and invoke Oldhammer
So basically for you Warhammer Fantasy is 6th and 7th edition. Ok. I mean thats my favourite period of Warhammer Fantasy but people should stop using it as some kind of high horse and claim that it was the golden age of fantasy or the "proper" fantasy.
I thought the same thing! Even 4th/5th edition was magic heavy, with the whole casting mini game, generals on flying monsters, and magic items until Tuesday.
The flip side to the argument that say, video games portray the Old World as more high fantasy is that the best source on gritty, low fantasy fluff are the role playing games.
The Empire is really the epicenter of the gritty part fo the old world, where even on the table top it relied on simply blocks of fighting men, including rag tag milita and fanatical zealots. But this is also the same army that always had pegasi and (at least one) griffon(s), and for all but a brief window in 6th edition had steam tanks (!). To get even the grittiest army in the Old World to a real low world standard, you basically have to ride and die with the original 6th edition army book, which admittedly gutted most of the goofy/high fantasy stuff. Earlier, you had war wagons and the imperial dragon and steam tanks and the war altar. Even in Ravening Hordes, Empire kept Ogres, dwarves, and halflings. By later in 6th, the steam tank crept back in, and later the War Wagon.
I think we need to be careful in defining the Old World so strongly for what it is not, meaning not the high fantasy wonderland of AOS, that we lose sight of how rich with magic and essentially magic the old world was.
That all being said... sure, I think we can be a bit apprehensive that the first content we've seen for this project is a super special elite unit for a fringe faction, which has abilities and gear in a combination never seen in WFB.
That all being said... sure, I think we can be a bit apprehensive that the first content we've seen for this project is a super special elite unit for a fringe faction, which has abilities and gear in a combination never seen in WFB.
Ice Guard carrying Ice Weapons in the Ice Court of the Ice Queen
Its safe to say that I'm not convinced by this initial preview.
Polonius wrote: I thought the same thing! Even 4th/5th edition was magic heavy, with the whole casting mini game, generals on flying monsters, and magic items until Tuesday.
Yep...it was Herohammer, usually involving beatstick characters on flying monsters. And magic was a whole game within the game as you said!
Like with most long-running IPs, people just have their personal favorite eras that they think define that IP. #NotMyFillInTheBlank
Yodhrin wrote: they have to reach for late-8th/ET units(which were quite evidently coming from the same place that gave us AoS, creatively), the videogames(which include a lot of ill-fitting contrivances due to the form) or go full on Days of Yore and invoke Oldhammer
So basically for you Warhammer Fantasy is 6th and 7th edition. Ok. I mean thats my favourite period of Warhammer Fantasy but people should stop using it as some kind of high horse and claim that it was the golden age of fantasy or the "proper" fantasy.
And I think is obvious that without the Perry Brothers the "new" fantasy will be much muuuch less historical.
When the rulebook launched with Ravening Hordes for the army lists it was most assuredly the most balanced version. Do I think it was the best? Yep, a couple fixes to 6th Ed. army books would have a totally tight edition.
Out of interest what army did you play in WHFB 6th? I played Empire and I remember them being rather low tier.
Eventually all of them except Tomb Kings and Wood Elves. Started with High Elves and Brets while my brother started with Lizardmen right off the bat. Eventually, as stated, we got every army. Anybody claiming Empire was low tier wasn't using the Detachment rule to their benefit. Block of Spearmen or Swordsmen with a Detachment of Handguns who get to stand and shoot at the unit charging the parent unit while your Free Company or Halberds get a free countercharge in the flank. I charge you and I'm down 5 CR PLUS S&S shots before I even roll my first hit. Wait, the flanking Detachment goes first, add THOSE to how far I'm behind.
Man, you guys are making me all nostalgic for 6th edition. I think you can make a fair argument that 6th edition was the peak/golden age of WHF. Great grimdark tone, magic was rare and dangerous, and solid rules with just enough flavor.
Those were the days.
I get chills just thinking about what they could do with Brettonians or Puff and Slash Empire if they would just remake some of the core kits with modern technology.
Imagine all the armies getting the Island of Blood treatment...
Gallahad wrote: Man, you guys are making me all nostalgic for 6th edition. I think you can make a fair argument that 6th edition was the peak/golden age of WHF. Great grimdark tone, magic was rare and dangerous, and solid rules with just enough flavor.
Those were the days.
I get chills just thinking about what they could do with Brettonians or Puff and Slash Empire if they would just remake some of the core kits with modern technology.
Imagine all the armies getting the Island of Blood treatment...
Ultimately I wouldn't care if they made an edition of rules I didn't like as long as they did IoB/BfSP sets for all the races. I can play 6th any time I want, so it won't break my heart if the rules are too jank for my tastes.
I also think that the 6th edition was the best spot the game was ever in. However, I do have a few of my friends who played it with me back then, that are really into the big new flashy minis they released later towards end times.
One reason I believe the feeling of low fantasy stems from is the limit of 1 or 2 rare units into your army. You would just not see 4 steam tanks. It simply was not possible to field them. If you are extrapolating from that time, the idea of an army of just giants like Sons of Behemat seems absolutely ridiculous. I am fine with one giant. I am still okay with two. But then.... And the same goes for Gryphs, Dragons, Sphinxes and wacky war machines of the Skaven or Imperium. One big centerpiece for the army is awesome. An army of center pieces, not so much.
savemelmac wrote: I also think that the 6th edition was the best spot the game was ever in. However, I do have a few of my friends who played it with me back then, that are really into the big new flashy minis they released later towards end times.
One reason I believe the feeling of low fantasy stems from is the limit of 1 or 2 rare units into your army. You would just not see 4 steam tanks. It simply was not possible to field them. If you are extrapolating from that time, the idea of an army of just giants like Sons of Behemat seems absolutely ridiculous. I am fine with one giant. I am still okay with two. But then.... And the same goes for Gryphs, Dragons, Sphinxes and wacky war machines of the Skaven or Imperium. One big centerpiece for the army is awesome. An army of center pieces, not so much.
Giants are the one exception I'd not mind a full army of quite as much, as they were a separate faction in the past before being enslaved by the Ogres. Indeed, just like the Ogres have multiple units of Ogres while a Skaven army would probably have 1, the Giants being their own thing can at least make thematic sense, although it remains to be seen how it works out in terms of gameplay (I wonder how different unit types will be distinguished (identical big robots is different from having cloned giants), or the all-or-nothing element from being able to take down large tough creatures that smash whatever they come in contact with). Anyway, that's AoS. An army of steam tanks, on the other hand... *shudders*.
At any rate, I too feel 6th hits the style and scale of what I enjoy most. As it happens, I also started playing around then, so I can't disassociate the perceived quality from "this is how it was and should be". Still, having somewhat interesting games where movement and flanking matter (as many want to see the return of it appears) can't really be combined with single all-eggs-in-one-basket units, where massive spells are the only way to get rid of such deathstars. They have a great opportunity to prevent the power creep of certain army books by designing them all at the same time prior to the relaunch, and as in 6th, I hope there will be a lot of options in faction-specific magic items and character abilities (vampire bloodlines and the likes). At least, that's what I enjoyed about 6th and felt was lacking later on.
Another interesting thing is that the more elaborate technological toys from the later period (clockwork horses, stormfiends) may make even less sense if the new Old World project takes place in an earlier time, centuries before the End Times.
In the fluff steam tanks certainly weren’t uncommon.
Multiple occasions have seen an entire army of steam tanks act as a hammer in sieges.
That was part of the reason we had so many variants at one stage.
Clan skryre war machines are anything but rare.
They churn out enough to supply themselves plus sell countless more to other clans.
Jackal90 wrote: In the fluff steam tanks certainly weren’t uncommon.
Multiple occasions have seen an entire army of steam tanks act as a hammer in sieges.
That was part of the reason we had so many variants at one stage.
Clan skryre war machines are anything but rare.
They churn out enough to supply themselves plus sell countless more to other clans.
There were 12 steam tanks built in total, that's pretty uncommon.
Jackal90 wrote: In the fluff steam tanks certainly weren’t uncommon.
Multiple occasions have seen an entire army of steam tanks act as a hammer in sieges.
That was part of the reason we had so many variants at one stage.
Clan skryre war machines are anything but rare.
They churn out enough to supply themselves plus sell countless more to other clans.
There were 12 steam tanks built in total, that's pretty uncommon.
Jackal90 wrote: In the fluff steam tanks certainly weren’t uncommon.
Multiple occasions have seen an entire army of steam tanks act as a hammer in sieges.
That was part of the reason we had so many variants at one stage.
Clan skryre war machines are anything but rare.
They churn out enough to supply themselves plus sell countless more to other clans.
There were 12 steam tanks built in total, that's pretty uncommon.
And by Karl Franz's reign there were only 8.
Although they were sometimes fiedling together. We still don't have a handle on the period this is being set in either.
Tygre wrote: And by Karl Franz's reign there were only 8.
That wasn't a particularly great piece of lore. The Empire was never a remnant of some golden age and while Steam Tanks should be rare, they should not be 40k style forgotten technology.
Jackal90 wrote: In the fluff steam tanks certainly weren’t uncommon.
Multiple occasions have seen an entire army of steam tanks act as a hammer in sieges.
That was part of the reason we had so many variants at one stage.
Clan skryre war machines are anything but rare.
They churn out enough to supply themselves plus sell countless more to other clans.
There were 12 steam tanks built in total, that's pretty uncommon.
And by Karl Franz's reign there were only 8.
Although they were sometimes fiedling together. We still don't have a handle on the period this is being set in either.
Will be interesting to see, before Magnus doesn't seem practical and during the reign of Franz doesn't really seem likely.
His Master's Voice wrote:
Tygre wrote: And by Karl Franz's reign there were only 8.
That wasn't a particularly great piece of lore. The Empire was never a remnant of some golden age and while Steam Tanks should be rare, they should not be 40k style forgotten technology.
Makes even less sense during 7th and the introduction of steam horses etc.
Gallahad wrote: Man, you guys are making me all nostalgic for 6th edition. I think you can make a fair argument that 6th edition was the peak/golden age of WHF. Great grimdark tone, magic was rare and dangerous, and solid rules with just enough flavor.
Those were the days.
I get chills just thinking about what they could do with Brettonians or Puff and Slash Empire if they would just remake some of the core kits with modern technology.
Imagine all the armies getting the Island of Blood treatment...
Oh yeah, Magic was so rare in 6th with those armies totally built around abusing magic die generation.
One reason I believe the feeling of low fantasy stems from is the limit of 1 or 2 rare units into your army. You would just not see 4 steam tanks. It simply was not possible to field them. If you are extrapolating from that time, the idea of an army of just giants like Sons of Behemat seems absolutely ridiculous. I am fine with one giant. I am still okay with two. But then.... And the same goes for Gryphs, Dragons, Sphinxes and wacky war machines of the Skaven or Imperium. One big centerpiece for the army is awesome. An army of center pieces, not so much.
I think its more to do with WFRP (which is my favourite take on the Warhammer world).
One reason I believe the feeling of low fantasy stems from is the limit of 1 or 2 rare units into your army. You would just not see 4 steam tanks. It simply was not possible to field them. If you are extrapolating from that time, the idea of an army of just giants like Sons of Behemat seems absolutely ridiculous. I am fine with one giant. I am still okay with two. But then.... And the same goes for Gryphs, Dragons, Sphinxes and wacky war machines of the Skaven or Imperium. One big centerpiece for the army is awesome. An army of center pieces, not so much.
I think its more to do with WFRP (which is my favourite take on the Warhammer world).
All of the above are/were present in WFRP as well depending on where and when you set your adventures.
One reason I believe the feeling of low fantasy stems from is the limit of 1 or 2 rare units into your army. You would just not see 4 steam tanks. It simply was not possible to field them. If you are extrapolating from that time, the idea of an army of just giants like Sons of Behemat seems absolutely ridiculous. I am fine with one giant. I am still okay with two. But then.... And the same goes for Gryphs, Dragons, Sphinxes and wacky war machines of the Skaven or Imperium. One big centerpiece for the army is awesome. An army of center pieces, not so much.
I think its more to do with WFRP (which is my favourite take on the Warhammer world).
All of the above are/were present in WFRP as well depending on where and when you set your adventures.
Especially where you set them. Living in Nuln with its full factories was a drastic difference then living near the coast where the Norse raiders ended up. Or dealing constantly with heavy beastmen afflictions and such.
Jackal90 wrote: In the fluff steam tanks certainly weren’t uncommon.
Multiple occasions have seen an entire army of steam tanks act as a hammer in sieges.
That was part of the reason we had so many variants at one stage.
Clan skryre war machines are anything but rare.
They churn out enough to supply themselves plus sell countless more to other clans.
There were 12 steam tanks built in total, that's pretty uncommon.
And by Karl Franz's reign there were only 8.
I'm glad someone pointed that out lol I was getting ready to hit the reply button about how common steam tanks were. Steam tanks didn't become ultra common until around 8th edition when they started unchaining everything. And AOS is all about unchaining everything.
Oh yeah, Magic was so rare in 6th with those armies totally built around abusing magic die generation.
Lol yeah, like how many power dice could a Tzeentch Chaos army bring to the table. Was it 21 or 24? I can't quite remember.
6th Edition was probably the most balanced. It had it's problems yes, but they were minor and fixable without needing a complete overall of the system.
You lot do realise GW are not remaking WHFB right? They’re making a new game. All this “it was/wasn’t like this in 4th/5th/6th” etc means precisely bugger all
MaxT wrote: You lot do realise GW are not remaking WHFB right? They’re making a new game. All this “it was/wasn’t like this in 4th/5th/6th” etc means precisely bugger all
Huh, I must have missed the announcement where they explained exactly what it would be, didn't realise that knowledge was out there yet.
The assumption has been that it would be like Necromunda - changed in parts, but with many elements of the original - making it relevant to discuss which elements of the original would likely carry over. However, you seem to have acquired some insights disproving this, which we lack at present. Feel free to enlighten us when you have the time!
Gallahad wrote: Man, you guys are making me all nostalgic for 6th edition. I think you can make a fair argument that 6th edition was the peak/golden age of WHF. Great grimdark tone, magic was rare and dangerous, and solid rules with just enough flavor.
Those were the days.
I get chills just thinking about what they could do with Brettonians or Puff and Slash Empire if they would just remake some of the core kits with modern technology.
Imagine all the armies getting the Island of Blood treatment...
Oh yeah, Magic was so rare in 6th with those armies totally built around abusing magic die generation.
Why is it that powergamers who game the system are always used automatically as some sort of lore/writer's intent precedent?
Jackal90 wrote: All 8 were still used in battles.
So the AoS pure steam tank armies aren’t all that far fetched.
Just a shame we don’t have the variants any more.
Also, wouldn’t surprise me if more were made soon.
It’s a good cash grab.
As silly as it got, I did like the crazy Davinci Clockwork Punk/Steampunk Empire. Yeah robo horse may have been a bit too far but it was a good fantasy human take unlike anythink else around.
Oh yeah, Magic was so rare in 6th with those armies totally built around abusing magic die generation.
Lol yeah, like how many power dice could a Tzeentch Chaos army bring to the table. Was it 21 or 24? I can't quite remember.
6th Edition was probably the most balanced. It had it's problems yes, but they were minor and fixable without needing a complete overall of the system.
Maybe I played with/against the wrong (or indeed right) armies at the time, but wasn't that mainly 7th, Daemons? Don't recall major issues with magic in 6th - often, there was a reasonable choice of going with or without magic, the only issue perhaps being that going light on magic meant an enemy wizard with a scroll could shut most of your offense down (then again, no biggie if you didn't invest in it heavily yourself).
Oh yeah, Magic was so rare in 6th with those armies totally built around abusing magic die generation.
Lol yeah, like how many power dice could a Tzeentch Chaos army bring to the table. Was it 21 or 24? I can't quite remember.
6th Edition was probably the most balanced. It had it's problems yes, but they were minor and fixable without needing a complete overall of the system.
Maybe I played with/against the wrong (or indeed right) armies at the time, but wasn't that mainly 7th, Daemons? Don't recall major issues with magic in 6th - often, there was a reasonable choice of going with or without magic, the only issue perhaps being that going light on magic meant an enemy wizard with a scroll could shut most of your offense down (then again, no biggie if you didn't invest in it heavily yourself).
Tzeentch marks on Mortal and Beast units gave you +1 PD per unit. Since ALL of your Mortal units counted as Core if your General was Mortal, you could see how this would add up. Add to the fact that in 6th there was one massive dice pool, which meant any Wizard who contributed was not forced to use their own dice, so you could frontload all the dice into whichever Wiz suited your purpose at the time. The best part of the Tzeentch spells? You had no spells that could totally decimate units bar one, and that would necessitate perfect rolling on two rounds of 4+'s. A LOT of the internet hyperbole you catch about 6th assumes that every hit/wound/cast/whatever roll was successful if it satisfied some bizarre argument on how the game was imbalanced and was Magichammer/Cavalryhammer/whateverhammer.
Ah yes the 6th Ed magic phase was total trash and I say that as a Dwarf player who laughed at most armies pathetic attempts to use it.
It may not be a popular opinion but I still think 8th had the best system but the spells ruined it, the system though was fine and just needed a few tweaks.
So the horrible hhorrible Tzeentch Daemon list you hear about has Horrors as casters with a choice of three bound spells that has a casting value of half the Unit Strength for purposes of dispelling. The first spell is a Magic Missile that does D6 hits (Decimating, I know...) at a Strength that is equal to 1 point of Strength per every 5 Unit Strength up to a max of 5. The second spell is 12" range or base to base, and has every model in the targeted unit taking a Strength 3 hit. (That's a little more in line with the legend, but still able to be dispelled. The third spell can only be cast in base to base, and kills any man sized models outright on a roll of 6 with no saves, turning the casualties into Horrors for the unit.
Oh, you can only choose 1 per turn to cast from each unit of Horrors in your army. Also, Horrors don't add dice to the dice pool, so spamming Bound Spells is the worst that can happen. Anyone saying you get PD from Horrors is lying. Nowhere in Hordes of Chaos does it state AT ALL that Horrors have the Mark of Tzeentch, nor that they are even able to pay points to have it.
Oh yeah, Magic was so rare in 6th with those armies totally built around abusing magic die generation.
Lol yeah, like how many power dice could a Tzeentch Chaos army bring to the table. Was it 21 or 24? I can't quite remember.
6th Edition was probably the most balanced. It had it's problems yes, but they were minor and fixable without needing a complete overall of the system.
Maybe I played with/against the wrong (or indeed right) armies at the time, but wasn't that mainly 7th, Daemons? Don't recall major issues with magic in 6th - often, there was a reasonable choice of going with or without magic, the only issue perhaps being that going light on magic meant an enemy wizard with a scroll could shut most of your offense down (then again, no biggie if you didn't invest in it heavily yourself).
Tzeentch marks on Mortal and Beast units gave you +1 PD per unit. Since ALL of your Mortal units counted as Core if your General was Mortal, you could see how this would add up. Add to the fact that in 6th there was one massive dice pool, which meant any Wizard who contributed was not forced to use their own dice, so you could frontload all the dice into whichever Wiz suited your purpose at the time. The best part of the Tzeentch spells? You had no spells that could totally decimate units bar one, and that would necessitate perfect rolling on two rounds of 4+'s. A LOT of the internet hyperbole you catch about 6th assumes that every hit/wound/cast/whatever roll was successful if it satisfied some bizarre argument on how the game was imbalanced and was Magichammer/Cavalryhammer/whateverhammer.
Thanks for the clarification! The only Chaos player I faced during 6th used pure Khorne from what I remember, so his magic phase wasn't as problematic.
Also, for clarity, it cost 20 points to mark a unit Tzeentch. Marauders couldn't get the Mark, so you had Warrior units hitting at 300 points who were your source to spam PD. 4 Dice sets you back 1,200 points before you even GET to the characters to use the dice. You know, the ones paying about 70 points per model to get the Mark? I actually played this army and knew how poorly it played out trying to chase the dice when it served me better to have more boots on ground.
Chariots were the only really cheap way of getting PD, which meant your entire army was sacrificing Combat Resolution for a few extra dice to power spells that averaged between 4-8 wounds, being generous.
The advent of steam horses and their likes is partly what drove me away. I simply prefer the lower standard of magic and technology of the world as I perceived it in 6th edition and through the Gotrek and Felix books. I am fully aware they need to make money, and unique flashy miniatures are a great way to do so. On a tangent, I totally dislike this type of fluff in 40k as well (looking at you admech!).
Apart from the fluff, I really hope they follow the same route as for 6th editions with ravaging hordes. That means, one barebones army book / list for each faction and then a period of 6 months to a year of public playtesting, before they really start to churn out the army books. I would rather wait for half a year or a full year more for my new game if that means it is reasonably balanced.
Jackal90 wrote: All 8 were still used in battles.
So the AoS pure steam tank armies aren’t all that far fetched.
Just a shame we don’t have the variants any more.
Also, wouldn’t surprise me if more were made soon.
It’s a good cash grab.
As silly as it got, I did like the crazy Davinci Clockwork Punk/Steampunk Empire. Yeah robo horse may have been a bit too far but it was a good fantasy human take unlike anythink else around.
See, I don't actually have a problem with that kind of thing existing in the setting, despite broadly feeling the same as savemelmac in the sense of considering circa-6th and the BL novels with that tone as the peak of the setting in terms of the background and general "feel". I don't even object to the existence of your Demigryph Knights and the like(for example, make the Demigryphs a rarity bred in the Emperor's zoo and used exclusively by the Reiksguard Inner Circle, essentially a "special character-unit") just the way they're added. The issue is when they define the setting, as they came to late 7th into 8th & ET, rather than being curiosities and oddities. The "clockpunk" stuff, the very-high-magic stuff, they're like fresh ground black pepper - they make excellent seasoning, but you don't want to eat that and nothing else. People will say to just ignore the bits you don't care for, but it's hard to reconcile the world depicted in Gotrek & Felix(pre-atrocious ET duology) or Angelika Fleischer or the Florin & Lorenzo books with the idea of magic being commonplace and everything being 100% high fantasy clockpunk 100% of the time - a world that has a clockwork pidgeon delivery network and magical doodads all over the place isn't a world where travel and communication are difficult and a single magical sword and the person who wields it are special.
What baffles me about the robohorse is that Dave Gallagher's concept art for it was both more fitting - in that it was still completely unrealistic and OTT but not utterly implausible - andIMO much cooler. DG's Empire concepts from around '04 are actually a great example of trying to find that balance; most of them can't even pretend to be "historical" beyond the general landschneckt'y aesthetic, but the really out-there stuff is almost all depicted as being crazy Master Engineer one-offs, or flamboyant characters, or the province of mad wizard lords, that kind of thing.
savemelmac wrote: The advent of steam horses and their likes is partly what drove me away. I simply prefer the lower standard of magic and technology of the world as I perceived it in 6th edition and through the Gotrek and Felix books. I am fully aware they need to make money, and unique flashy miniatures are a great way to do so. On a tangent, I totally dislike this type of fluff in 40k as well (looking at you admech!).
Apart from the fluff, I really hope they follow the same route as for 6th editions with ravaging hordes. That means, one barebones army book / list for each faction and then a period of 6 months to a year of public playtesting, before they really start to churn out the army books. I would rather wait for half a year or a full year more for my new game if that means it is reasonably balanced.
Gotrek and Fleix was pretty high Fantasy and magic - Gotrek could and did defeat Greater Daemons in single combat - we see plenty of exmaples of Dwarf steam tech like the huge zepplin. The pair met a good proportion of the most powerful people in the world including Teclis, Mannfred von Carstein, Khalida and of course Thanquol.
They might be down in the sewers hunting some skaven in one but the next they were helping sink a Black Ark or adventuring with Teclis etc.
The Warhammer World is pretty flexible in what sort of story you want to tell
savemelmac wrote: The advent of steam horses and their likes is partly what drove me away. I simply prefer the lower standard of magic and technology of the world as I perceived it in 6th edition and through the Gotrek and Felix books. I am fully aware they need to make money, and unique flashy miniatures are a great way to do so. On a tangent, I totally dislike this type of fluff in 40k as well (looking at you admech!).
Apart from the fluff, I really hope they follow the same route as for 6th editions with ravaging hordes. That means, one barebones army book / list for each faction and then a period of 6 months to a year of public playtesting, before they really start to churn out the army books. I would rather wait for half a year or a full year more for my new game if that means it is reasonably balanced.
Gotrek and Fleix was pretty high Fantasy and magic - Gotrek could and did defeat Greater Daemons in single combat - we see plenty of exmaples of Dwarf steam tech like the huge zepplin. The pair met a good proportion of the most powerful people in the world including Teclis, Mannfred von Carstein, Khalida and of course Thanquol.
They might be down in the sewers hunting some skaven in one but the next they were helping sink a Black Ark or adventuring with Teclis etc.
The Warhammer World is pretty flexible in what sort of story you want to tell
They also destroyed a steam tank in the Imperial Engineers School fighting the skaven. Killed summoned demons on the castle walls of Praag during the Chaos invasion. Enlisted the help of multiple magicians who cast pretty heavy magic. Flew through magic tunnels that transported them across the continent.
savemelmac wrote: The advent of steam horses and their likes is partly what drove me away. I simply prefer the lower standard of magic and technology of the world as I perceived it in 6th edition and through the Gotrek and Felix books. I am fully aware they need to make money, and unique flashy miniatures are a great way to do so. On a tangent, I totally dislike this type of fluff in 40k as well (looking at you admech!).
Apart from the fluff, I really hope they follow the same route as for 6th editions with ravaging hordes. That means, one barebones army book / list for each faction and then a period of 6 months to a year of public playtesting, before they really start to churn out the army books. I would rather wait for half a year or a full year more for my new game if that means it is reasonably balanced.
Gotrek and Fleix was pretty high Fantasy and magic - Gotrek could and did defeat Greater Daemons in single combat - we see plenty of exmaples of Dwarf steam tech like the huge zepplin. The pair met a good proportion of the most powerful people in the world including Teclis, Mannfred von Carstein, Khalida and of course Thanquol.
They might be down in the sewers hunting some skaven in one but the next they were helping sink a Black Ark or adventuring with Teclis etc.
The Warhammer World is pretty flexible in what sort of story you want to tell
They also destroyed a steam tank in the Imperial Engineers School fighting the skaven. Killed summoned demons on the castle walls of Praag during the Chaos invasion. Enlisted the help of multiple magicians who cast pretty heavy magic. Flew through magic tunnels that transported them across the continent.
See, I don´t object any of these existing "at all". I simply do not feel that every imperial army should have 4 steam tanks, 3 units of demigryphs and 2 technici on robohorses. The unsinkable 3 in Gotrek and Felix was fun because it was a one off. Just as the general demon army should not have half a dozen Bloodthirsters, the ultimate personification of Khorne, destroyer of worlds. I am fully aware that there is magic in the world of warhammer, and obviously the threshhold is different for everybody. To me it is the same as in James Bond movies or the BL novels - it is totally fine to be over the top and unrealistic at times, but when it is happening all the time for everybody it just loses its character. At least to me.
And the concept for the mechanical horse is awesome! I would have liked that a lot better as a miniature.
savemelmac wrote: The advent of steam horses and their likes is partly what drove me away. I simply prefer the lower standard of magic and technology of the world as I perceived it in 6th edition and through the Gotrek and Felix books. I am fully aware they need to make money, and unique flashy miniatures are a great way to do so. On a tangent, I totally dislike this type of fluff in 40k as well (looking at you admech!).
Apart from the fluff, I really hope they follow the same route as for 6th editions with ravaging hordes. That means, one barebones army book / list for each faction and then a period of 6 months to a year of public playtesting, before they really start to churn out the army books. I would rather wait for half a year or a full year more for my new game if that means it is reasonably balanced.
Gotrek and Fleix was pretty high Fantasy and magic - Gotrek could and did defeat Greater Daemons in single combat - we see plenty of exmaples of Dwarf steam tech like the huge zepplin. The pair met a good proportion of the most powerful people in the world including Teclis, Mannfred von Carstein, Khalida and of course Thanquol.
They might be down in the sewers hunting some skaven in one but the next they were helping sink a Black Ark or adventuring with Teclis etc.
The Warhammer World is pretty flexible in what sort of story you want to tell
They also destroyed a steam tank in the Imperial Engineers School fighting the skaven. Killed summoned demons on the castle walls of Praag during the Chaos invasion. Enlisted the help of multiple magicians who cast pretty heavy magic. Flew through magic tunnels that transported them across the continent.
See, I don´t object any of these existing "at all". I simply do not feel that every imperial army should have 4 steam tanks, 3 units of demigryphs and 2 technici on robohorses. The unsinkable 3 in Gotrek and Felix was fun because it was a one off. Just as the general demon army should not have half a dozen Bloodthirsters, the ultimate personification of Khorne, destroyer of worlds. I am fully aware that there is magic in the world of warhammer, and obviously the threshhold is different for everybody. To me it is the same as in James Bond movies or the BL novels - it is totally fine to be over the top and unrealistic at times, but when it is happening all the time for everybody it just loses its character. At least to me.
And the concept for the mechanical horse is awesome! I would have liked that a lot better as a miniature.
Well put. As I said, Morden, it's about quantity and emphasis - Gotrek and Felix are special exactly because their lives are atypical for the world. And the novels take pains to show the mundanity that their experiences elevate them above; most people are not Felix, they're his fat merchant brother, or barkeeps, or mercenaries, or courtiers, or plain old dirt farmers. Most Dwarfs don't build giant combustion-driven airships or battle Bloodthirsters in single combat. Most everyday people in the Empire don't have the drive or capability required to cast civilised life aside and become a corpse-robber in the Blackfire Pass like Angelika Fleischer, and even among the handful that do most will never be brought back from the dead by a maybe-divine intervention. Most people will never even meet a high magister like Max, or wield a dragon-slaying magical sword, or escape a Black Ark.
It wouldn't be Warhammer without steam tanks and ludicrous literal-fire-for-hair sorcerers and magic weapons and little clockpunk oddities and the occasional maybe-apocalypse...but it also isn't Warhammer if those things are the main focus as they increasingly became, because the more mundane pseudohistorical stuff is the glue that binds all the pop culture references and thinly veiled jokes and mad high fantasy stuff together in a way that feels real, even though it's in no way "realistic".
Focusing on those aspects of the setting also doesn't really make sense to me in the context of AoS - GW are already producing an ultra-high-magic setting where the mystical is the mundane and epic mighty heroes seem to spring up out of the ground on demand, so the more they tilt WHF towards that mythic and mystical tone the less there is to differentiate it.
savemelmac wrote: The advent of steam horses and their likes is partly what drove me away. I simply prefer the lower standard of magic and technology of the world as I perceived it in 6th edition and through the Gotrek and Felix books. I am fully aware they need to make money, and unique flashy miniatures are a great way to do so. On a tangent, I totally dislike this type of fluff in 40k as well (looking at you admech!).
Apart from the fluff, I really hope they follow the same route as for 6th editions with ravaging hordes. That means, one barebones army book / list for each faction and then a period of 6 months to a year of public playtesting, before they really start to churn out the army books. I would rather wait for half a year or a full year more for my new game if that means it is reasonably balanced.
Gotrek and Fleix was pretty high Fantasy and magic - Gotrek could and did defeat Greater Daemons in single combat - we see plenty of exmaples of Dwarf steam tech like the huge zepplin. The pair met a good proportion of the most powerful people in the world including Teclis, Mannfred von Carstein, Khalida and of course Thanquol.
They might be down in the sewers hunting some skaven in one but the next they were helping sink a Black Ark or adventuring with Teclis etc.
The Warhammer World is pretty flexible in what sort of story you want to tell
They also destroyed a steam tank in the Imperial Engineers School fighting the skaven. Killed summoned demons on the castle walls of Praag during the Chaos invasion. Enlisted the help of multiple magicians who cast pretty heavy magic. Flew through magic tunnels that transported them across the continent.
See, I don´t object any of these existing "at all". I simply do not feel that every imperial army should have 4 steam tanks, 3 units of demigryphs and 2 technici on robohorses. The unsinkable 3 in Gotrek and Felix was fun because it was a one off. Just as the general demon army should not have half a dozen Bloodthirsters, the ultimate personification of Khorne, destroyer of worlds. I am fully aware that there is magic in the world of warhammer, and obviously the threshhold is different for everybody. To me it is the same as in James Bond movies or the BL novels - it is totally fine to be over the top and unrealistic at times, but when it is happening all the time for everybody it just loses its character. At least to me.
And the concept for the mechanical horse is awesome! I would have liked that a lot better as a miniature.
Well put. As I said, Morden, it's about quantity and emphasis - Gotrek and Felix are special exactly because their lives are atypical for the world. And the novels take pains to show the mundanity that their experiences elevate them above; most people are not Felix, they're his fat merchant brother, or barkeeps, or mercenaries, or courtiers, or plain old dirt farmers. Most Dwarfs don't build giant combustion-driven airships or battle Bloodthirsters in single combat. Most everyday people in the Empire don't have the drive or capability required to cast civilised life aside and become a corpse-robber in the Blackfire Pass like Angelika Fleischer, and even among the handful that do most will never be brought back from the dead by a maybe-divine intervention. Most people will never even meet a high magister like Max, or wield a dragon-slaying magical sword, or escape a Black Ark.
It wouldn't be Warhammer without steam tanks and ludicrous literal-fire-for-hair sorcerers and magic weapons and little clockpunk oddities and the occasional maybe-apocalypse...but it also isn't Warhammer if those things are the main focus as they increasingly became, because the more mundane pseudohistorical stuff is the glue that binds all the pop culture references and thinly veiled jokes and mad high fantasy stuff together in a way that feels real, even though it's in no way "realistic".
Focusing on those aspects of the setting also doesn't really make sense to me in the context of AoS - GW are already producing an ultra-high-magic setting where the mystical is the mundane and epic mighty heroes seem to spring up out of the ground on demand, so the more they tilt WHF towards that mythic and mystical tone the less there is to differentiate it.
But the whole point of a Warhammer Fantasy Battle is that its not everyday in the Shire - its a Battle! We are no looking at the innkeeper and his son pouring drinks but a horde of Skaven or Orcs facing off against a Empire or Undead force.
Even in WFRP you play at the level you want because the world is that flexible - you can have a the adventueres of a young rat catcher trying to survive in some backwater town or you can search for the lost hammer of Sigmar and save or damn the Empire as the Enemy Within Campaign concludes.
I have had characters that lived and died in little places and that no one of noticed or missed in the Old World ..............and I have played a noble who became a vampire that travelled to Lustria and fled from a Slann and helped kill a tortured dark elf dragon to survive, she finally having to choose between undeath and chaos in Kislev at the culmination of an epic campaign...
Lord of the Rings is not just a bunch of hobbits in the Shire and Warhammer is not just the little people.
Jackal90 wrote: All 8 were still used in battles.
So the AoS pure steam tank armies aren’t all that far fetched.
Just a shame we don’t have the variants any more.
Also, wouldn’t surprise me if more were made soon.
It’s a good cash grab.
As silly as it got, I did like the crazy Davinci Clockwork Punk/Steampunk Empire. Yeah robo horse may have been a bit too far but it was a good fantasy human take unlike anythink else around.
See, I don't actually have a problem with that kind of thing existing in the setting, despite broadly feeling the same as savemelmac in the sense of considering circa-6th and the BL novels with that tone as the peak of the setting in terms of the background and general "feel". I don't even object to the existence of your Demigryph Knights and the like(for example, make the Demigryphs a rarity bred in the Emperor's zoo and used exclusively by the Reiksguard Inner Circle, essentially a "special character-unit") just the way they're added. The issue is when they define the setting, as they came to late 7th into 8th & ET, rather than being curiosities and oddities. The "clockpunk" stuff, the very-high-magic stuff, they're like fresh ground black pepper - they make excellent seasoning, but you don't want to eat that and nothing else. People will say to just ignore the bits you don't care for, but it's hard to reconcile the world depicted in Gotrek & Felix(pre-atrocious ET duology) or Angelika Fleischer or the Florin & Lorenzo books with the idea of magic being commonplace and everything being 100% high fantasy clockpunk 100% of the time - a world that has a clockwork pidgeon delivery network and magical doodads all over the place isn't a world where travel and communication are difficult and a single magical sword and the person who wields it are special.
What baffles me about the robohorse is that Dave Gallagher's concept art for it was both more fitting - in that it was still completely unrealistic and OTT but not utterly implausible - andIMO much cooler. DG's Empire concepts from around '04 are actually a great example of trying to find that balance; most of them can't even pretend to be "historical" beyond the general landschneckt'y aesthetic, but the really out-there stuff is almost all depicted as being crazy Master Engineer one-offs, or flamboyant characters, or the province of mad wizard lords, that kind of thing.
Spoiler:
Off-topic, but can I just say I love that concept art? It's like what would happen if Leonardo Davinci was asked to design a motorcycle.
I started Warhammer old world with Man o War. So I started off with Tzeentch flying castles, big greenskin ships with things like giant hammers. Black Arks and Dragons with castles on them with Dwarf Submarines and gigantic ship cannons that had Wizards aboard to fight each other.
So my basis pretty much came into being unlike those who have 6th edition and some of the WFRP on mind. I pretty much got introduced through magical and powerful steamtech rather then just gritty Empire.
I was going to say - its valid to criticize the my way is the only way mentality.
But its also legit to acknowledge that there is some disdain for the fact that the only way that exists is one way and there is a whole swathe of people that don't like that way but have no choice but to play that way because there is no other way.
Mr Morden wrote: Thats one of the joys for me - its can be quite a variety of different experences.
Same, but right now there's the problem of "My way is the only way" going on here.
The more similar WHF classic (or whatever they are calling it) is to AOS the fewer people you will bring back. Most of the people that love the wackier parts of the old WHF likely also enjoy AOS.
If GW wants to pick up new non AOS customers, simple logic suggests they offer something substantially different than what AOS offers.
The more whacky the units get (Ice Spears!) the more AOS sales you cannibalize.
See, I don't actually have a problem with that kind of thing existing in the setting, despite broadly feeling the same as savemelmac in the sense of considering circa-6th and the BL novels with that tone as the peak of the setting in terms of the background and general "feel". I don't even object to the existence of your Demigryph Knights and the like(for example, make the Demigryphs a rarity bred in the Emperor's zoo and used exclusively by the Reiksguard Inner Circle, essentially a "special character-unit") just the way they're added. The issue is when they define the setting, as they came to late 7th into 8th & ET, rather than being curiosities and oddities. The "clockpunk" stuff, the very-high-magic stuff, they're like fresh ground black pepper - they make excellent seasoning, but you don't want to eat that and nothing else. People will say to just ignore the bits you don't care for, but it's hard to reconcile the world depicted in Gotrek & Felix(pre-atrocious ET duology) or Angelika Fleischer or the Florin & Lorenzo books with the idea of magic being commonplace and everything being 100% high fantasy clockpunk 100% of the time - a world that has a clockwork pidgeon delivery network and magical doodads all over the place isn't a world where travel and communication are difficult and a single magical sword and the person who wields it are special.
What baffles me about the robohorse is that Dave Gallagher's concept art for it was both more fitting - in that it was still completely unrealistic and OTT but not utterly implausible - andIMO much cooler. DG's Empire concepts from around '04 are actually a great example of trying to find that balance; most of them can't even pretend to be "historical" beyond the general landschneckt'y aesthetic, but the really out-there stuff is almost all depicted as being crazy Master Engineer one-offs, or flamboyant characters, or the province of mad wizard lords, that kind of thing.
Well said.
And I love wheely steam horse!
I like to just assume that every army that hits the table top - the IG with 20+ plasma guns, the Empire black powder army, the Chaos force with magic coming out its wazoo - is an All-Star, NY Yankees, Olympic Contender sort of team.
The Empire force with nothing but crossbows and shoeless guys with sharp sticks already got mulched into the dirt, the IG force that had only grenade launchers is busy fighting the Chaos Cultists led by a mad psyker with tenatacle arms. We don't see 99% of the armies that exist in the setting because if we're going to take the time to buy, build and paint an army they're going to be the best of the best.
Of course I've got 30 penal legionnaires sitting on my desk armed with flamers so what do I know.
Mr Morden wrote: Thats one of the joys for me - its can be quite a variety of different experences.
Same, but right now there's the problem of "My way is the only way" going on here.
The more similar WHF classic (or whatever they are calling it) is to AOS the fewer people you will bring back. Most of the people that love the wackier parts of the old WHF likely also enjoy AOS.
If GW wants to pick up new non AOS customers, simple logic suggests they offer something substantially different than what AOS offers.
The more whacky the units get (Ice Spears!) the more AOS sales you cannibalize.
This is probably the truest of the statements responding to my comment at least when it comes to rationalization rather then just snarky commentary, I will agree with this yes, but at the same time there is a massive difference between one unit and suddenly Kislev is nearly entirely ice based with ice swordsmen and ice spears with polar bears shooting ice daggers from their mouths.
The idea is that there can be a reasonable balance between the two. A unit of swordsmen in the Empire fighting off Beastmen in the muck and rain to defend some town on the outskirts is as valid as a more elite unit guard defending the Ice Queen against Chaos is just as valid... I genuinely do not want everything to go pure AoS either for WHTOW. A remembrance that there's magic in the world as well as the soldiers fighting against impossible odds on the frontlines is what I want.
Mr Morden wrote: Thats one of the joys for me - its can be quite a variety of different experences.
Same, but right now there's the problem of "My way is the only way" going on here.
The more similar WHF classic (or whatever they are calling it) is to AOS the fewer people you will bring back. Most of the people that love the wackier parts of the old WHF likely also enjoy AOS.
If GW wants to pick up new non AOS customers, simple logic suggests they offer something substantially different than what AOS offers.
The more whacky the units get (Ice Spears!) the more AOS sales you cannibalize.
This is probably the truest of the statements responding to my comment at least when it comes to rationalization rather then just snarky commentary, I will agree with this yes, but at the same time there is a massive difference between one unit and suddenly Kislev is nearly entirely ice based with ice swordsmen and ice spears with polar bears shooting ice daggers from their mouths.
The idea is that there can be a reasonable balance between the two. A unit of swordsmen in the Empire fighting off Beastmen in the muck and rain to defend some town on the outskirts is as valid as a more elite unit guard defending the Ice Queen against Chaos is just as valid... I genuinely do not want everything to go pure AoS either for WHTOW. A remembrance that there's magic in the world as well as the soldiers fighting against impossible odds on the frontlines is what I want.
If there's one thing I can say with absolute certainty nowadays it's that GW doesn't do restraint anymore. That "one" unit of Ice Spike Spike Icers will become the entire damn army in one fell swoop.
Okay, since we're down to mostly speculation and wishlisting, I'll throw in what I wish for more than anything: restrictions and structure in army lists. The US wouldn't send 50 Divisions of Delta Force to a battle; 50 Divisions of Delta Force don't even exist. Why would I expect differently with a WFB army? Or a 40K army for that matter?
If there's one thing I can say with absolute certainty nowadays it's that GW doesn't do restraint anymore. That "one" unit of Ice Spike Spike Icers will become the entire damn army in one fell swoop.
Okay, since we're down to mostly speculation and wishlisting, I'll throw in what I wish for more than anything: restrictions and structure in army lists. The US wouldn't send 50 Divisions of Delta Force to a battle; 50 Divisions of Delta Force don't even exist. Why would I expect differently with a WFB army? Or a 40K army for that matter?
Yeah but if Warhammer 2k was the big wargame you can be sure we'd be seeing a whole lot of SEAL/Delta/Spetnaz armies a not so many Wisconsin National Guard or Trinidad Self Defense Force armies. If players have to lay out $XXX or $XXXX in money and XX hours of time to play, we're going to want to play the coolest, most awesome, best.
Yeah there will be freaks who spend that time and money on conscripts, penal troops, cultists and grots, but don't begrudge the folks who want to play marines or Ice Warriors of Elsa. We're all nerds here.
If there's one thing I can say with absolute certainty nowadays it's that GW doesn't do restraint anymore. That "one" unit of Ice Spike Spike Icers will become the entire damn army in one fell swoop.
Okay, since we're down to mostly speculation and wishlisting, I'll throw in what I wish for more than anything: restrictions and structure in army lists. The US wouldn't send 50 Divisions of Delta Force to a battle; 50 Divisions of Delta Force don't even exist. Why would I expect differently with a WFB army? Or a 40K army for that matter?
Yeah but if Warhammer 2k was the big wargame you can be sure we'd be seeing a whole lot of SEAL/Delta/Spetnaz armies a not so many Wisconsin National Guard or Trinidad Self Defense Force armies. If players have to lay out $XXX or $XXXX in money and XX hours of time to play, we're going to want to play the coolest, most awesome, best.
Yeah there will be freaks who spend that time and money on conscripts, penal troops, cultists and grots, but don't begrudge the folks who want to play marines or Ice Warriors of Elsa. We're all nerds here.
I do not think that anyone here is begrudging anybody else. If anything we all are begrudging GW for not giving us excactly what we want
Apart from personal preferences on how armies are supposed to feel and look, I always worry about the balancing side of things, seeing that GW is not exactly historically strong in this part of game design. I think an army organisation chart of yore or something similar with points brackets or just about any system that restricts the army composition in matched play really helps to make balancing the game easier. Then, even if one of the units is too strong, you will not see only this unit and nothing else.
The old T3 restriction system which was very extensive showed that it is possible to implement something like this. Although it was very restrictive and it would be great, if the balance allowed for more creativity in the lists.
If there's one thing I can say with absolute certainty nowadays it's that GW doesn't do restraint anymore. That "one" unit of Ice Spike Spike Icers will become the entire damn army in one fell swoop.
Okay, since we're down to mostly speculation and wishlisting, I'll throw in what I wish for more than anything: restrictions and structure in army lists. The US wouldn't send 50 Divisions of Delta Force to a battle; 50 Divisions of Delta Force don't even exist. Why would I expect differently with a WFB army? Or a 40K army for that matter?
Yeah but if Warhammer 2k was the big wargame you can be sure we'd be seeing a whole lot of SEAL/Delta/Spetnaz armies a not so many Wisconsin National Guard or Trinidad Self Defense Force armies. If players have to lay out $XXX or $XXXX in money and XX hours of time to play, we're going to want to play the coolest, most awesome, best.
Yeah there will be freaks who spend that time and money on conscripts, penal troops, cultists and grots, but don't begrudge the folks who want to play marines or Ice Warriors of Elsa. We're all nerds here.
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, hatred leads to Unbound. The farther GW games move away from structure, the more imbalanced they become. Narrative players can always ignore FOCs, casual PUGamers suffer more when they are lackluster or missing.
savemelmac wrote: The advent of steam horses and their likes is partly what drove me away. I simply prefer the lower standard of magic and technology of the world as I perceived it in 6th edition and through the Gotrek and Felix books. I am fully aware they need to make money, and unique flashy miniatures are a great way to do so. On a tangent, I totally dislike this type of fluff in 40k as well (looking at you admech!).
Apart from the fluff, I really hope they follow the same route as for 6th editions with ravaging hordes. That means, one barebones army book / list for each faction and then a period of 6 months to a year of public playtesting, before they really start to churn out the army books. I would rather wait for half a year or a full year more for my new game if that means it is reasonably balanced.
Gotrek and Fleix was pretty high Fantasy and magic - Gotrek could and did defeat Greater Daemons in single combat - we see plenty of exmaples of Dwarf steam tech like the huge zepplin. The pair met a good proportion of the most powerful people in the world including Teclis, Mannfred von Carstein, Khalida and of course Thanquol.
They might be down in the sewers hunting some skaven in one but the next they were helping sink a Black Ark or adventuring with Teclis etc.
The Warhammer World is pretty flexible in what sort of story you want to tell
They also destroyed a steam tank in the Imperial Engineers School fighting the skaven. Killed summoned demons on the castle walls of Praag during the Chaos invasion. Enlisted the help of multiple magicians who cast pretty heavy magic. Flew through magic tunnels that transported them across the continent.
See, I don´t object any of these existing "at all". I simply do not feel that every imperial army should have 4 steam tanks, 3 units of demigryphs and 2 technici on robohorses. The unsinkable 3 in Gotrek and Felix was fun because it was a one off. Just as the general demon army should not have half a dozen Bloodthirsters, the ultimate personification of Khorne, destroyer of worlds. I am fully aware that there is magic in the world of warhammer, and obviously the threshhold is different for everybody. To me it is the same as in James Bond movies or the BL novels - it is totally fine to be over the top and unrealistic at times, but when it is happening all the time for everybody it just loses its character. At least to me.
And the concept for the mechanical horse is awesome! I would have liked that a lot better as a miniature.
Well put. As I said, Morden, it's about quantity and emphasis - Gotrek and Felix are special exactly because their lives are atypical for the world. And the novels take pains to show the mundanity that their experiences elevate them above; most people are not Felix, they're his fat merchant brother, or barkeeps, or mercenaries, or courtiers, or plain old dirt farmers. Most Dwarfs don't build giant combustion-driven airships or battle Bloodthirsters in single combat. Most everyday people in the Empire don't have the drive or capability required to cast civilised life aside and become a corpse-robber in the Blackfire Pass like Angelika Fleischer, and even among the handful that do most will never be brought back from the dead by a maybe-divine intervention. Most people will never even meet a high magister like Max, or wield a dragon-slaying magical sword, or escape a Black Ark.
It wouldn't be Warhammer without steam tanks and ludicrous literal-fire-for-hair sorcerers and magic weapons and little clockpunk oddities and the occasional maybe-apocalypse...but it also isn't Warhammer if those things are the main focus as they increasingly became, because the more mundane pseudohistorical stuff is the glue that binds all the pop culture references and thinly veiled jokes and mad high fantasy stuff together in a way that feels real, even though it's in no way "realistic".
Focusing on those aspects of the setting also doesn't really make sense to me in the context of AoS - GW are already producing an ultra-high-magic setting where the mystical is the mundane and epic mighty heroes seem to spring up out of the ground on demand, so the more they tilt WHF towards that mythic and mystical tone the less there is to differentiate it.
But the whole point of a Warhammer Fantasy Battle is that its not everyday in the Shire - its a Battle! We are no looking at the innkeeper and his son pouring drinks but a horde of Skaven or Orcs facing off against a Empire or Undead force.
Even in WFRP you play at the level you want because the world is that flexible - you can have a the adventueres of a young rat catcher trying to survive in some backwater town or you can search for the lost hammer of Sigmar and save or damn the Empire as the Enemy Within Campaign concludes.
I have had characters that lived and died in little places and that no one of noticed or missed in the Old World ..............and I have played a noble who became a vampire that travelled to Lustria and fled from a Slann and helped kill a tortured dark elf dragon to survive, she finally having to choose between undeath and chaos in Kislev at the culmination of an epic campaign...
Lord of the Rings is not just a bunch of hobbits in the Shire and Warhammer is not just the little people.
But that's exactly the point I'm trying to make Morden - it has to be all those things, and as 7th went on and fed into 8th & ET, it began to cater only to the ZOMG EPIC APOCATASTROWORLDSHATTER BATTLE OF DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!1 end of the spectrum. You either showed up with the named megacharacters and deathstar units and supermagic and giant centrepiece models, or you might as well not have shown up. "Battle!" doesn't and shouldn't have to mean only the bigestest and most epicestest warbattles leik evar, there needs to be room in the system for people who want to make an army of Their Dudes themed around a local baron, or an everyday warboss going raiding, or a band of Dark Elf slavers raiding the coast of the Old World, or all the other forms of "mundane" war that make up 99% of the conflict in that world.
WHFRP provides for the full range of gak eating sewerjack to Mighty Epic Hero while ensuring people understand the latter are not the default, and WHFBused to provide for the whole spectrum of conflict from the everyday and typical all the way up to the possibly-apocalyptic while again not presenting that as the standard, but by its end only cared about the very biggest, grandest, most world-shattering, kingdom-ending, ultra-magical warfare because that was the only kind that could justify flogging people hundreds upon hundreds of troops and loads of giant expensive centrepiece models.
The reason so many people look to 6th as a system and as a fluff era is for us, they got that balance absolutely bang on - the system has the whacky fun stuff but in vaguely reasonable amounts by default, and then allows various ways players can choose together to ramp things up with bigtime named characters or themed army lists or supplementary campaign material; and the setting shows the full variety of character and conflict the world contains but presents it in a way that shows people the proper proportion of each individual thing contained in the whole. The default of the game system matches the default of the setting, and the choice to escalate above that is left in the hands of the players. As GW's poor choices began to kill it off, WHFB flipped that around, first by making the default of the game system match the most epic end of the setting, and then by even further ramping up the epic level of the setting to facilitate bigger & bigger and more & more OTT armies in the game, and in so doing they essentially removed the choice to do anything else since the game was balanced around players having all those superwizards and deathstars - 8th as a system was a buggy mess unless you played it at the intended big point value matches.
I'd second the motion for army restrictions. Actual army restrictions. Special forces elites are cool. And have their place. But their place shouldn't be in every game, spammed to the max.
Give me back the entire spectrum of battles. Not just the stupid over the top every day 24/7 jack-daddy elite forces that has been GW for over a decade now.
I've always been a proponent of different tiers of battle. Rules that let you say "this battle is going to be about the common soldier staving off an invasion of marauders, and each side gets a minor hero and maybe a unit of elites" and then have another tier that is "this battle is a massive zomg HULK SMASH" battle where you get more heroes and magic and monsters.
That way you can represent the entire spectrum and have official rules to do so. This caters to all play styles as opposed to just one playstyle while alienating everyone else.
It provides overviews of what units from each race fit into which category, suggests rules for playing a Low Fantasy or Middle Fantasy game, describes some of the challenges involved, and provides sample army lists.
But it pretty much provides the framework for what Auticus is describing. From what I saw it looks like the lower the fantasy, the better for lower points levels- the 2K point 'low fantasy' Empire list was more models than I've painted in my life.
For me, the issue is less the presence of high fantasy elements, and more how games like AoS have reduced the requirement for the low-fantasy elements to support them. When no more than 25% of your points could be spent on Rare choices, you were not taking 5+ Steam Tanks in a single game, and you had to have a reasonably mundane core to your army.
Relaxing of force composition requirements makes it a lot easier to skew towards exclusively the high fantasy stuff, and removal of restrictions on named characters means extremely powerful, narrative-pivotal characters show up much more regularly. Those, I think, did a lot more to erase the 'low fantasy' style than the presence of high fantasy elements did.
It provides overviews of what units from each race fit into which category, suggests rules for playing a Low Fantasy or Middle Fantasy game, describes some of the challenges involved, and provides sample army lists.
But it pretty much provides the framework for what Auticus is describing. From what I saw it looks like the lower the fantasy, the better for lower points levels- the 2K point 'low fantasy' Empire list was more models than I've painted in my life.
For me, the issue is less the presence of high fantasy elements, and more how games like AoS have reduced the requirement for the low-fantasy elements to support them. When no more than 25% of your points could be spent on Rare choices, you were not taking 5+ Steam Tanks in a single game, and you had to have a reasonably mundane core to your army.
Relaxing of force composition requirements makes it a lot easier to skew towards exclusively the high fantasy stuff, and removal of restrictions on named characters means extremely powerful, narrative-pivotal characters show up much more regularly. Those, I think, did a lot more to erase the 'low fantasy' style than the presence of high fantasy elements did.
I mean, it's sort of in the name, innit? They're called Rare choices, because they're supposed to be rare. But when you relax force-org so that entire armies can be just Rare- or Special Units, that flavor disappears - it's the difference between adding some nutmeg to spice up your food, and trying to cook an entire meal using nothing but nutmeg.
Lower model count.
More monsters.
More super powerful heroes.
Less having to paint boring core tax low powered models.
More wombo combo synergy play ala warmahordes.
auticus wrote: Lower model count.
More monsters.
More super powerful heroes.
Less having to paint boring core tax low powered models.
More wombo combo synergy play ala warmahordes.
Pretty much the war drum beat from 2008 on.
Sounds like the roots of Warhammer. 4th and 5th edition Warhammer and 2nd edition 40k were like this (IMHO). Earlier editions are beyond my experience.
Don't get me wrong; I also do not want Hero Hammer back.
I hope they don't bring guess ranges back. If you are good at estimating ranges you were very accurate; if not then you were lucky to hit anything. I used to be so jealous of Goblin bolt throwers. Low cost and, in many situations, just as effective.
I feel like most people with nostalgia goggles here would be happier playing something else, like a pen and paper rpg or a historical wargame. See, the thing about classic fantasy warhammer was that it was literally every single fantasy trope thrown into one universe. The only exception is that unlike DnD all the factions were cartoon stereotypes of real world civilizations. WHFB has been as over the top as 40k has always been.
A group of archers manage to enchant their arrows.....and thats too much? Please.
Don Savik wrote: I feel like most people with nostalgia goggles here would be happier playing something else, like a pen and paper rpg or a historical wargame. See, the thing about classic fantasy warhammer was that it was literally every single fantasy trope thrown into one universe. The only exception is that unlike DnD all the factions were cartoon stereotypes of real world civilizations. WHFB has been as over the top as 40k has always been.
I don't think anyone has been denying that.
A group of archers manage to enchant their arrows.....and thats too much? Please.
Once again, I don't think anyone has been saying that either. Without going back to check over all the posts. People aren't against a unit like the Queens Royal Guard having magic ice arrows. It makes sense that the elite unit would have the best wargear.
What people don't want is when the whole army has magic ice arrows. And magic ice spears. And magic ice shields and magic ice codpieces and ice-magic on their ice cream... You get the point. When that starts to happen, we're just back in AoS and it's not WHFB anymore.
Don Savik wrote: I feel like most people with nostalgia goggles here would be happier playing something else, like a pen and paper rpg or a historical wargame. See, the thing about classic fantasy warhammer was that it was literally every single fantasy trope thrown into one universe. The only exception is that unlike DnD all the factions were cartoon stereotypes of real world civilizations. WHFB has been as over the top as 40k has always been.
A group of archers manage to enchant their arrows.....and thats too much? Please.
Most of us with nostalgia goggles would actually be happier playing.. (you didn't guess it!?!) Something resembling the thing we are nostalgic for!
Beyond the Empire and Brettonians I'm not sure it is so easy to map old factions to real world civilizations, nor am I sure that is the downside you seem to think it is..
Either way, the bulk of armies was made up of units using weapons and wearing armor that didn't require the "BuT iT's MaGiC!!!" defense be invoked.
That is what I want. If the previewed ice archers are a rare elite unit I'm totally fine with that. As long as the bulk of the kislev army is made up of guys using metal weapons (that won't melt on a warm day). Ditto their armor.
I'm not sure we will agree that was WHFB as silly as 40k has always been, but here is a question you can answer:
Don Savik, do you feel that current AOS is more, less, or the same amount of "over the top" as classic WHFB?
I've always vastly preferred low-fantasy. While the Old World was not explicitly low fantasy, it was far more prominent, and lent itself very well to that style. I always liked the idea of magic, and special creatures being rather rare amongst human forces, etc. The idea that orks and Chaos were boogey-men...that really existed.
Aesthetically, the old Mark of Chaos trailer is the best thing I've ever seen showing how hopeless a poor Empire recruit would be in that kind of world...but that's what's intriguing about it. I think it's the best CGI ever applied to a GW product personally.
It provides overviews of what units from each race fit into which category, suggests rules for playing a Low Fantasy or Middle Fantasy game, describes some of the challenges involved, and provides sample army lists.
But it pretty much provides the framework for what Auticus is describing. From what I saw it looks like the lower the fantasy, the better for lower points levels- the 2K point 'low fantasy' Empire list was more models than I've painted in my life.
For me, the issue is less the presence of high fantasy elements, and more how games like AoS have reduced the requirement for the low-fantasy elements to support them. When no more than 25% of your points could be spent on Rare choices, you were not taking 5+ Steam Tanks in a single game, and you had to have a reasonably mundane core to your army.
Relaxing of force composition requirements makes it a lot easier to skew towards exclusively the high fantasy stuff, and removal of restrictions on named characters means extremely powerful, narrative-pivotal characters show up much more regularly. Those, I think, did a lot more to erase the 'low fantasy' style than the presence of high fantasy elements did.
Do you remember what issue that was from?
But I remember these debates playing out in WD, Jervis once had an article on his son picking Blood Angels solely on account of a special character and Jarvis concluding that special characters should be accessible all the time and not just opponent's permission.
After all GW games are these so we can have fun (and GW make money) not to be a documentary-like recreation of a world that never existed. It seems that the more restricted versions of either game should come from the players not GW. Otherwise we get into debates about whether Marines should ever be seen on the tabletop.
Surely the point here is that the empire, classically, and bretonnia - the human factions - were pretty low fantasy for the most part, whereas factions like the elves, and the more inhuman races - namely, the more, dare I say... Fantastical? - have a much more ready and fitting way of scratching that high-fantasy itch.
Clearly the big concern here is that he have previewed the first mini for a much loved setting, but the faction - a human one - feels less cohesive with humans in classic Warhammer fantasy, and more fitting with AoS, which is high fantasy for every race, or even classic fantasy elves, who also had high fantasy silliness as a real aesthetic cornerstone from their inception.
A thing that no one brought up regarding the force organization chart was that back in the day, the core units were called "core tax". You brought as many as you had to, just like in the 6th ed you automatically included a cheap wizard with dispel scrolls if you werent going magic-heavy. GW never could provide sufficient reason for core units to exist on the tabletop beyond "balance", so people treated them as necessary evil before getting to the sweet, sweet rare and special selections. You were lucky if your cores did something really useful, like skinks and their skirmishing.
Possibly one of the worst examples you could have used. Skinks where tactically sound. Able to kill monsters with there shooting, great as bait to lure units outs.
Sure it was called by many as a core tax, but that's because like tax you had to have it not necessarily a bad thing.
Sufficient reason for taking core? What empire army would come to battle without it's state troops, it's knightly orders?
Goblin army coming to battle without it's amassed goblins, fanatics, sneaky stabbers?
Maybe I'm saying this as I still play 8th and I use more than my allotted core tax points.
Let's also not forget the tactical value of Skavenslaves/Skellies to tarpit enemy units, cheap core skirmishers/light cav to redirect and so on. Saying core units had no value and were forced upon players is just not true.
I liked things like the old Force Organisation Chart and army restrictions. I think that what it was aiming to achieve were two things
1) Balance for the game. By limiting what can be taken you improve your chances of game balance because you restrict the variations possible and you restrict the spamming of specific units.
2) Provides a structure to armies. If your Empire army has to take minimum in core troops and if you make them infantry then your armies start to achieve an appearance and visual style that the designer can control even whilst letting players build their own armies.
This builds into the "identity" of an army in a visual sense for attracting new customers.
Of course over time, the charts and such started to fail a bit. Also as we've moved into new ages with 40K there have been big shifts. I recall the old chart was starting to break for armies like Tyranids where being heavily restricted on elite slots started to punish the army because all their specialists were in the limited elite slot. I think it was getting to a point where bigger and more diverse armies were starting to almost reach a point where they needed their own "army specific" charts. It also needed an overhaul to allow for the bigger number of models and diversity that we see today.
In contrast where you've game systems with no charts and almost no limits sometimes it can actually be hard to "build" an army. Too much choice can be as damaging as too little.
From 40K I recall when GW did one of the old Tyranid codex (the one where they had their first big rework visually and we got things like Old One eye and the first generation of Raveners). In that there were two versions of the army; the normal and the unlocked. The latter was basically a system for building whatever you wanted and just paying points for it. So you could have a gaunt with synapse; you could take all heavy weapons on a unit of warriors etc.. You could go wild. The potential choices were VAST. Now because they were vast (and because it was GW) it was woefully open to abuse; however the other aspect was it was so much choice for many gamers that actually using it was a challenge. The majority tended to cherry pick the few best (eg synapse on a gaunt) and leave the rest to the default from the main stats in the book.
Too much choice overwhelms just as much as too little restricts.
howie wrote: Possibly one of the worst examples you could have used. Skinks where tactically sound. Able to kill monsters with there shooting, great as bait to lure units outs.
Sure it was called by many as a core tax, but that's because like tax you had to have it not necessarily a bad thing.
Sufficient reason for taking core? What empire army would come to battle without it's state troops, it's knightly orders?
Goblin army coming to battle without it's amassed goblins, fanatics, sneaky stabbers?
Maybe I'm saying this as I still play 8th and I use more than my allotted core tax points.
You could have made me take an army of nothing but core and I would've been fine with it in two of the three armies I was getting into. (I had a focus problem).
Cronch wrote:A thing that no one brought up regarding the force organization chart was that back in the day, the core units were called "core tax". You brought as many as you had to, just like in the 6th ed you automatically included a cheap wizard with dispel scrolls if you werent going magic-heavy. GW never could provide sufficient reason for core units to exist on the tabletop beyond "balance", so people treated them as necessary evil before getting to the sweet, sweet rare and special selections. You were lucky if your cores did something really useful, like skinks and their skirmishing.
The only people spouting garbage like "Core Tax" were the powergaming D-Bags from 5th WFB and 2nd 40K who were so used to having little to no restrictions that they threw a tantrum for being forced to take what was considered the backbone of their army in order to spam the "sweet, sweet Rare and Special selections". It was because of THAT sort of min/max crap that events started grading and awarding points on Army Composition. I really wish I still had the print outs for those, or the PDFs. It had a really nifty tally chart to figure out how much someone cheesed, then a grading page to issue an overall score. One of the cool things that the own of Phoenix Rising in Ft. Wayne, IN did was use those to arrange the first round match ups in the tourneys. The two players who scored 0 faced each other right of the bat. Even funnier on the single elimination tourneys.
Overread wrote:I liked things like the old Force Organisation Chart and army restrictions. I think that what it was aiming to achieve were two things
1) Balance for the game. By limiting what can be taken you improve your chances of game balance because you restrict the variations possible and you restrict the spamming of specific units.
2) Provides a structure to armies. If your Empire army has to take minimum in core troops and if you make them infantry then your armies start to achieve an appearance and visual style that the designer can control even whilst letting players build their own armies.
This builds into the "identity" of an army in a visual sense for attracting new customers.
Of course over time, the charts and such started to fail a bit. Also as we've moved into new ages with 40K there have been big shifts. I recall the old chart was starting to break for armies like Tyranids where being heavily restricted on elite slots started to punish the army because all their specialists were in the limited elite slot. I think it was getting to a point where bigger and more diverse armies were starting to almost reach a point where they needed their own "army specific" charts. It also needed an overhaul to allow for the bigger number of models and diversity that we see today.
In contrast where you've game systems with no charts and almost no limits sometimes it can actually be hard to "build" an army. Too much choice can be as damaging as too little.
From 40K I recall when GW did one of the old Tyranid codex (the one where they had their first big rework visually and we got things like Old One eye and the first generation of Raveners). In that there were two versions of the army; the normal and the unlocked. The latter was basically a system for building whatever you wanted and just paying points for it. So you could have a gaunt with synapse; you could take all heavy weapons on a unit of warriors etc.. You could go wild. The potential choices were VAST. Now because they were vast (and because it was GW) it was woefully open to abuse; however the other aspect was it was so much choice for many gamers that actually using it was a challenge. The majority tended to cherry pick the few best (eg synapse on a gaunt) and leave the rest to the default from the main stats in the book.
Too much choice overwhelms just as much as too little restricts.
That Tyranid experience you mention was the 3rd Ed. codex, and it was the start of the whole "Veteran trait" garbage that permeated all the lists from there on out. It was pretty easy to see happening: Tyranids got Mutable Genus, and suddenly Chaos was able to customize every unit in their army with veteran traits. Shockingly the IG got it next which led to Marines getting it, and a whole arms race of "what the hell is across from me?!?!?!?" situations whenever you gamed. The one thing I liked about 5th was knocking that gak out.
I wholeheartedly agree on both your points about FOC. Remember when the only requirement was 25%+ on "regiments"? How many people ran what was considered the basic troops of that army? Only those that HAD to. I think there was a rule that certain units had to be taken first in a High Elf army, but it didn't stop people building an army that was mostly elites. The FOC made it at least a little harder, the problem was that some throwbacks couldn't simply adapt and say "Well, I have to run State Troops, how can I make that work in my battle line?" and eventually those throwbacks started writing the rules at GW, which is why you saw so much 5th Ed. WFB and 2nd Ed. 40K creeping back into the game, to the game's detriment in my opinion.
howie wrote: Possibly one of the worst examples you could have used. Skinks where tactically sound. Able to kill monsters with there shooting, great as bait to lure units outs.
Sure it was called by many as a core tax, but that's because like tax you had to have it not necessarily a bad thing.
Sufficient reason for taking core? What empire army would come to battle without it's state troops, it's knightly orders?
Goblin army coming to battle without it's amassed goblins, fanatics, sneaky stabbers?
Maybe I'm saying this as I still play 8th and I use more than my allotted core tax points.
You could have made me take an army of nothing but core and I would've been fine with it in two of the three armies I was getting into. (I had a focus problem).
You can see tons of battle reports by me over at classichammer.com and you'll notice that I almost always fill out 5 Core before moving on to other things.
BertBert wrote: Let's also not forget the tactical value of Skavenslaves/Skellies to tarpit enemy units, cheap core skirmishers/light cav to redirect and so on. Saying core units had no value and were forced upon players is just not true.
I did say most didn't. Skavenslaves were a tarpit, skinks (as i said) were great thanks to cheapness and skirmishing (and poison). But most were only slightly cheaper than similar Special units and had much less utility.
The only people spouting garbage like "Core Tax" were the powergaming D-Bags from 5th WFB and 2nd 40K who were so used to having little to no restrictions that they threw a tantrum for being forced to take what was considered the backbone of their army in order to spam the "sweet, sweet Rare and Special selections"
Or someone that expects the cheaper units to have utility compared to more expensive units. Most game companies can find a way to still make the chaff useful, even if only as chaff, but GW struggled with that (and still does at times), making "core" units bland and unattractive even as tarpits, because they don't cost little enough to be effective at that.
Cronch wrote: A thing that no one brought up regarding the force organization chart was that back in the day, the core units were called "core tax". You brought as many as you had to, just like in the 6th ed you automatically included a cheap wizard with dispel scrolls if you werent going magic-heavy. GW never could provide sufficient reason for core units to exist on the tabletop beyond "balance", so people treated them as necessary evil before getting to the sweet, sweet rare and special selections. You were lucky if your cores did something really useful, like skinks and their skirmishing.
The thing is if I had access in reality to an entire army of elites all the time, core normal units would never have a place in my battlefield as well if I had that choice. Sometimes you are taking core "tax" because you don't have an endless supply of steam tanks and elite great swords and an entire artillery battalion at your disposal and that reflects in the army restriction rules.
The problem okd Skaven had was that you need a massive number of slaves. It was seriously offputting how many you needed; especially when those units mostly went on the table to then come off the table without "doing much".
that said I think a lot of people don't understand chaff/tarpit units. Or at least they don't understand that not every unit has to "win/buy" back its points in equivalent kills. I put it down to the fact that a lot of people don't understand tactics and that its not something the community reinforces either. It focuses far more on maths and probabilities, but very little on actual gameplay tactics and manoeuvres.
The Doubleturn in AoS has even forced people to learn some of them, which has resulted in them thinking that things like unit screens and such are "doubleturn tactics" when in actuality they are solid tactics for any tactical game. It's just something that the old system never "forced" them to learn.
hat said I think a lot of people don't understand chaff/tarpit units. Or at least they don't understand that not every unit has to "win/buy" back its points in equivalent kills. I put it down to the fact that a lot of people don't understand tactics and that its not something the community reinforces either. It focuses far more on maths and probabilities, but very little on actual gameplay tactics and manoeuvres.
The Doubleturn in AoS has even forced people to learn some of them, which has resulted in them thinking that things like unit screens and such are "doubleturn tactics" when in actuality they are solid tactics for any tactical game. It's just something that the old system never "forced" them to learn.
I agree with most of that (you know I do because in the AOS forum here I said exactly that about double turn tactics).
A lot of that is because GW has made the game so tactics aren't as important as the math you are bringing in your list. You don't need to get good at tactics when you have several nuclear options available to you that you can say "I tap my red fire mage card here and do 18 mortal wounds to your black grimbly card... er... unit of whatever"
Yes there are some tactics. The two main tactics employed are target priority (knowing who to unleash your red fire mage 18 mortal wounds on) and then understanding screens (bubble wrap). At the high tournament levels there is also understanding how to maximize melee positioning instead of just shoving guys forward, but that is rarely seen outside of the end tables.
When the game has for years rewarded you for just taking the purple sun and pit of shades (8th ed) or 200 skaven slaves to take advantage of steadfast (8th ed) or maxing out mortal wounds or maxing out free summoning (AOS) one does not need to really get good at the game, because getting good at the game heavily comes down to what you bring to the table.
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It seems that the more restricted versions of either game should come from the players not GW
That never works well. Especially in today's world of "house rules are evil and shady and are used to push some person's agenda etc etc".
The game itself should enforce restrictions or give you modes to play officially so that they arent' house rules.
Imagine that, Frontline gaming just dropped an interview with one of the Para Bellum Conquest devs who stated that the upcoming rulebook contains... modes of play! Because there are multiple ways of enjoying the game and they understand that trying to shoe horn one in is not going to get everyone excited.
Elbows wrote: I've always vastly preferred low-fantasy. While the Old World was not explicitly low fantasy, it was far more prominent, and lent itself very well to that style. I always liked the idea of magic, and special creatures being rather rare amongst human forces, etc. The idea that orks and Chaos were boogey-men...that really existed.
Aesthetically, the old Mark of Chaos trailer is the best thing I've ever seen showing how hopeless a poor Empire recruit would be in that kind of world...but that's what's intriguing about it. I think it's the best CGI ever applied to a GW product personally.
That video is phenomenal but I think you draw the wrong conclusion from it. I mean. Those are not empire recruits. Those are hardened veterans. You can see how they charge with resolve and in the fight scenes, they are too fast and on the background but you can see a good bunch of empire soldiers actually killing chaos warriors.
And even with that they are slaugtherer. (Not that surprising, I mean, in the real world you had things like Teutoburg forest. Ambushes normally end up like that)
It seems that the more restricted versions of either game should come from the players not GW
That never works well. Especially in today's world of "house rules are evil and shady and are used to push some person's agenda etc etc".
The game itself should enforce restrictions or give you modes to play officially so that they arent' house rules.
Imagine that, Frontline gaming just dropped an interview with one of the Para Bellum Conquest devs who stated that the upcoming rulebook contains... modes of play! Because there are multiple ways of enjoying the game and they understand that trying to shoe horn one in is not going to get everyone excited.
The unfortunate reality is that most groups of players focus on the "official" type of play. Once this is established, you have hardly any chance to play something different outside your own little circle, at least in my experience. This would be 2000p matched play for 40k, steamroller for warmachine and whathaveyou for all the other systems. So this heavily influences the way people play and armies look.
Therefore I think it would be great if that is the game mode that has the best balance and at the moment I only have the FOC or similar systems as an idea how to achieve this. Nobody restricts the amount of Stegageddons in open and narrative play, so you can still bring all your toys if you really want to.
As for the "core tax", that is what we have as troop choices in bataillons in 40k at the moment. Sometimes it is truly a tax (e.g. for necrons), sometimes it is basically irrelevant as the choices are either useful or cheap enough. I fully agree that those troops should have a relevant function in the game, But this requires a good balance, which I think is only achievable with multiple small adjustments in relatively short order, just like in video game patches. And this in turn requires digital rules, which opens another can of worms.....
BertBert wrote: Let's also not forget the tactical value of Skavenslaves/Skellies to tarpit enemy units, cheap core skirmishers/light cav to redirect and so on. Saying core units had no value and were forced upon players is just not true.
I did say most didn't. Skavenslaves were a tarpit, skinks (as i said) were great thanks to cheapness and skirmishing (and poison). But most were only slightly cheaper than similar Special units and had much less utility.
I can't find the word "most" in your post, but sure. It certainly depended on a lot on the army and the options that existed in it. Skink skirmishers could do things that other units couldn't. And as said, cheap unmoveable units like skeletons or the dreaded big blocks of slaves and clanrats. I also never regretted bringing dryads, glade guard or glade riders, nor did my TK opponent mind bringing his consistent skelly archers. Thing is, we've covered nearly half the armies now, so even your unsaid "most" may be pushing it... More importantly, I don't recall hearing or reading about "core tax" much during 6th. I think it was more in later years, when deathstars were all the rage, and those were typically more useful when created out of better armoured or harder hitting elites than the basic peasants that made up the core slots. But perhaps it was also an issue for people who preferred bringing out the bigger toys? While I personally enjoy the look and playstyle of a varied, combined arms force with some close combat infantry, some missile troops, some cavalry on the flanks, maybe some artillery or flying units or a big monster, I can see that not all might prefer this, which may be why modern 40k, AoS and perhaps the revisited Old World could have fewer restrictions.
Core tax was a term coined in 6th edition. It first started with the vampire count book (the fourth book that dropped that edition) because the popular build was the black knight wight cavalry bus loaded with four vampires.
The "core tax" was taking 3 units of min sized dire wolves or ghouls depending on the player.
From there "core tax" began percolating to all corners of the game as a piece of vernacular. It wasn't until middle of 7th edition that the complaints about having to take crappy non elite troops became a wardrum beating though.
The arguments back in the 6th ed days were the people upset that 25% troops was replaced by slots instead, because 3 units of min size ghouls or dire wolves was very cheap and was not 25% of the overall point cost of a standard game. It came out to be like 200 points or something like that, leaving the VC player 1800 points to powergame.
That argument got rather heated as well as I recall.
I find it strange when people talk about 'core tax', the core units are the heart of the game!
I can understand the appeal of the 'lucky dip/ grab bag' type armies both in historical and fantasy type games, but I do hope that this new system makes them the exception and not the rule.
From a gamists point of view, units that are not ultra efficient and optimal should not be taken. If the system forces you to take them, that is a "tax".
If you don't follow the gamist point of view, it would indeed seem strange. A system written from a gamist perspective will eliminate requiring you taking anything you don't want to and encourage and reward you for going the all elite force. A system written from a historical or simulation perspective will restrict what you can take based on an abstract resource system that would say "you can't take 10 steam tanks because they wouldn't all be in a normal battle like that".
6th edition was written by guys famous for their historical or simulation rulesets.
8th edition and AOS are written by guys that love the gamist perspective. The stark difference in the two is hard to miss.
It provides overviews of what units from each race fit into which category, suggests rules for playing a Low Fantasy or Middle Fantasy game, describes some of the challenges involved, and provides sample army lists.
But it pretty much provides the framework for what Auticus is describing. From what I saw it looks like the lower the fantasy, the better for lower points levels- the 2K point 'low fantasy' Empire list was more models than I've painted in my life.
For me, the issue is less the presence of high fantasy elements, and more how games like AoS have reduced the requirement for the low-fantasy elements to support them. When no more than 25% of your points could be spent on Rare choices, you were not taking 5+ Steam Tanks in a single game, and you had to have a reasonably mundane core to your army.
Relaxing of force composition requirements makes it a lot easier to skew towards exclusively the high fantasy stuff, and removal of restrictions on named characters means extremely powerful, narrative-pivotal characters show up much more regularly. Those, I think, did a lot more to erase the 'low fantasy' style than the presence of high fantasy elements did.
Do you remember what issue that was from?
But I remember these debates playing out in WD, Jervis once had an article on his son picking Blood Angels solely on account of a special character and Jarvis concluding that special characters should be accessible all the time and not just opponent's permission.
After all GW games are these so we can have fun (and GW make money) not to be a documentary-like recreation of a world that never existed. It seems that the more restricted versions of either game should come from the players not GW. Otherwise we get into debates about whether Marines should ever be seen on the tabletop.
It was in US WD313 (Feb 2006), not sure about the UK version.
And yeah, that's fair about players getting into it on account of special characters- ultimately if you take the 'let the players have what they want' mindset you get what we currently have, where force organization is loose and if you want to take the all-Steam-Tank army then you can.
I don't think it's intrinsically bad. It's a legitimate approach and a lot of people like it. It just doesn't satisfy the low fantasy itch, which in being heavily restrictive by nature is more akin to classic historical wargames. That mindset seems to be dying out as tabletop games become more and more influenced by CCGs and videogames- you see a lot fewer attempts at 'historical' or fluff-accurate army lists than you do attempts to maximize the effectiveness of rules combos.
I'm a troop guy. The normal mook are my favourite type of unit, always. I tend to spam them to my detriment.
But I can totally understand why people call them a tax. And it is not a problem with the player but with the ones writting the rules. If you can't make your troops relevant, maybe not exciting in the amazing things they can do but cool enough because you feel like they are acomplising something more than dying before better stuff starts to die, then thats a problem. And for most editions of warhammer thats exactly what has happened.
In a videogame, ok. I don't mind. But when you are forcing me to buy 3-5 boxes of basically wound counters that accomplish nothing I won't be happy with spending my money like that.
That Tyranid experience you mention was the 3rd Ed. codex, and it was the start of the whole "Veteran trait" garbage that permeated all the lists from there on out. It was pretty easy to see happening: Tyranids got Mutable Genus, and suddenly Chaos was able to customize every unit in their army with veteran traits. Shockingly the IG got it next which led to Marines getting it, and a whole arms race of "what the hell is across from me?!?!?!?" situations whenever you gamed. The one thing I liked about 5th was knocking that gak out.
Yeah I can tell our views are different in this regard and everything else. I loved those because it allowed you to custom build your army how you enjoyed. A Chaos Warrior was an immutable long warrior of the fight, and to basically be on par with a renegade who popped up ten years ago because he left Space Wolves is.. something else.
Galas wrote: I'm a troop guy. The normal mook are my favourite type of unit, always. I tend to spam them to my detriment.
But I can totally understand why people call them a tax. And it is not a problem with the player but with the ones writting the rules. If you can't make your troops relevant, maybe not exciting in the amazing things they can do but cool enough because you feel like they are acomplising something more than dying before better stuff starts to die, then thats a problem. And for most editions of warhammer thats exactly what has happened.
In a videogame, ok. I don't mind. But when you are forcing me to buy 3-5 boxes of basically wound counters that accomplish nothing I won't be happy with spending my money like that.
It's particularly annoying to me because Warhammer is sufficiently grounded that you can look at real history to find what rank-and-file were used for. Just a few examples off the top of my head:
-Occupying space to prevent your elite units from being flanked
-Being brought in as backup so that your elite units can temporarily withdraw, recover, and rally
-Providing additional flankers to amplify the damage caused by your elites
-Acting as rock-paper-scissors counters to particular threats (see: longbows at Agincourt, pikemen in the Thirty Years War)
-Engaging the enemy first to disorder them, before cavalry can charge home
-Serving as anvils to absorb enemy missile fire or charges (well, at least they've always been able to do this on the tabletop...)
A lot of this comes down to fantasy games typically emphasizing base killing power over all else, while downplaying fatigue, morale, flanking, and disordering. It might not be as 'heroic', but history shows us that even the best-trained and best-equipped heavy cavalry could be brought down by simply getting surrounded by peasant levies, being continuously engaged until the men were too exhausted to fight, or charging straight into a block of pikemen in ordered formation. Neuter those sorts of mechanics and you take away a lot of what made 'Core' troops useful IRL.
Or to put it in more real terms: glitzed-up Chaos Knights taking heavy casualties from charging into a block of bog-standard Spearmen might be more true to history, and certainly gives the Spearmen tangible value, but doesn't fit what people expect from a high-fantasy game. And there, I think, is where low-fantasy and high-fantasy start to butt heads.
6th edition was written by guys famous for their historical or simulation rulesets.
8th edition and AOS are written by guys that love the gamist perspective. The stark difference in the two is hard to miss.
I think it's more that 8th and AoS were written by the marketing department.
Language like 'we want you to be able to use any and all of your models' are pretty explicit code for 'buy more stuff'
6th edition was written by guys famous for their historical or simulation rulesets.
8th edition and AOS are written by guys that love the gamist perspective. The stark difference in the two is hard to miss.
I think it's more that 8th and AoS were written by the marketing department.
Language like 'we want you to be able to use any and all of your models' are pretty explicit code for 'buy more stuff'
Having read the TGA fans and developers blogs or watched their interviews, I think that they really really love that approach as well. This is the type of game that they love playing, and that shows in how its developed.
6th edition was written by guys famous for their historical or simulation rulesets.
8th edition and AOS are written by guys that love the gamist perspective. The stark difference in the two is hard to miss.
I think it's more that 8th and AoS were written by the marketing department.
Language like 'we want you to be able to use any and all of your models' are pretty explicit code for 'buy more stuff'
How this ties into the old world project? We can debate, and attempt to predict that the new project will include a lot of those same design principals.
The "we want you to use any and all of your models" I highly doubt will be diminished, and thus that means little to no restrictions, and more gamist approach to design will be taken.
This game if it resembles WHFB at all will be a hybrid of 8th edition's stupid-powerful magic with 4th/5th editions emphasis on super heroes and their elite cheerleading section.
IMO.
And if I'm being honest with myself ... that is the right business choice to make because that direction I feel sells vastly more than the way I prefer. I say that also as a game dev and having been in those meetings in the past, this topic gets hit often on direction that is taken.
auticus wrote: From a gamists point of view, units that are not ultra efficient and optimal should not be taken. If the system forces you to take them, that is a "tax".
If you don't follow the gamist point of view, it would indeed seem strange. A system written from a gamist perspective will eliminate requiring you taking anything you don't want to and encourage and reward you for going the all elite force. A system written from a historical or simulation perspective will restrict what you can take based on an abstract resource system that would say "you can't take 10 steam tanks because they wouldn't all be in a normal battle like that".
6th edition was written by guys famous for their historical or simulation rulesets.
8th edition and AOS are written by guys that love the gamist perspective. The stark difference in the two is hard to miss.
The problem with that is in historical wargaming, you can point to examples and say "this was how it went down. Two M4A1s and a platoon of GIs held out against a battalion of experienced Fallschirmjaegers" and that's it. Under "balanced" logic the FJs players is cheesing out, bringing no lowly grenadiers or Volksturm (depending on date) that "should" be the core of German forces. Because IRL armies are "balanced" on a far higher level than gamers are usually expecting to bring. In fantasy and sf gaming there is much greater pressure on "balanced" organization stemming from this unrealistic expectation of "realism" where "no army is made up of elites only".
auticus wrote: From a gamists point of view, units that are not ultra efficient and optimal should not be taken. If the system forces you to take them, that is a "tax".
If you don't follow the gamist point of view, it would indeed seem strange. A system written from a gamist perspective will eliminate requiring you taking anything you don't want to and encourage and reward you for going the all elite force. A system written from a historical or simulation perspective will restrict what you can take based on an abstract resource system that would say "you can't take 10 steam tanks because they wouldn't all be in a normal battle like that".
6th edition was written by guys famous for their historical or simulation rulesets.
8th edition and AOS are written by guys that love the gamist perspective. The stark difference in the two is hard to miss.
The problem with that is in historical wargaming, you can point to examples and say "this was how it went down. Two M4A1s and a platoon of GIs held out against a battalion of experienced Fallschirmjaegers" and that's it. Under "balanced" logic the FJs players is cheesing out, bringing no lowly grenadiers or Volksturm (depending on date) that "should" be the core of German forces. Because IRL armies are "balanced" on a far higher level than gamers are usually expecting to bring. In fantasy and sf gaming there is much greater pressure on "balanced" organization stemming from this unrealistic expectation of "realism" where "no army is made up of elites only".
Well there are quite a few "Historical" scenarios in Warhammer and Age of Sigmar in fact most of the AOS scenarios are based around a historical event or variations on them.
Cronch wrote: The problem with that is in historical wargaming, you can point to examples and say "this was how it went down. Two M4A1s and a platoon of GIs held out against a battalion of experienced Fallschirmjaegers" and that's it. Under "balanced" logic the FJs players is cheesing out, bringing no lowly grenadiers or Volksturm (depending on date) that "should" be the core of German forces. Because IRL armies are "balanced" on a far higher level than gamers are usually expecting to bring. In fantasy and sf gaming there is much greater pressure on "balanced" organization stemming from this unrealistic expectation of "realism" where "no army is made up of elites only".
I don't think that's a good argument.
Taking a Fallschirmjaeger army in something like Flames of War isn't cheesy. It's based on the TOE of a real combat unit. The game has rules for taking a Fallschirmjaeger army; they're not a single unit type in what is expected to be a more varied/balanced army. Beyond history, the game itself tells you what a Fallschirmjaeger deployment typically looks like.
Taking an army composed of more King Tigers than were ever able to assemble in one spot without breaking down, supported by every Stuka Zu Fuss ever constructed, and nothing else, is cheesy. It bears no relation to how these units were historically used.
Alternate army lists are fine in a fantasy context. Remember those variant lists that let you shift certain units from Special to Core, at the cost of making certain Core units Special and certain Special units Rare? Or in 40K, how playing Deathwing made your Terminators Troops choices? That's the equivalent to a Fallschirmjaeger army list. There's nothing stopping the designers from building these alternative army concepts into the rules.
In any case, I don't think many of the 'historically' minded players have an issue with themed armies that ask for gentle liberties on otherwise restrictive rules to accurately represent their subject matter. That's not what we're talking about here; we're talking about loose restrictions catering to skew lists that don't fit the fluff and are chosen for gameplay effectiveness.
Overread wrote:From 40K I recall when GW did one of the old Tyranid codex (the one where they had their first big rework visually and we got things like Old One eye and the first generation of Raveners). In that there were two versions of the army; the normal and the unlocked. The latter was basically a system for building whatever you wanted and just paying points for it. So you could have a gaunt with synapse; you could take all heavy weapons on a unit of warriors etc.. You could go wild. The potential choices were VAST. Now because they were vast (and because it was GW) it was woefully open to abuse; however the other aspect was it was so much choice for many gamers that actually using it was a challenge. The majority tended to cherry pick the few best (eg synapse on a gaunt) and leave the rest to the default from the main stats in the book.
Too much choice overwhelms just as much as too little restricts.
Can confirm. 3rd ed tyranids was where I started eating and breathing 40K for a while. I looked at the mutable rules and was ecstatic about how personal and individual you could make your swarm. Trouble was, a noob like me had no idea what to take, in what combination, and whether it was worth the points.
I also remember it made the humble termagant an endangered species almost overnight. The players with their heads screwed on tighter (the people who did know if it was worth the points; the early mathammerers) quickly noticed that spinegaunts were a point cheaper, and because gaunts were only for fielding as many bodies for as cheap as possible, that's all that anyone took. The multiple choices rapidly became one choice.
It seemed exciting and canny at the time, but now, a bit of a mess. I'd say the best thing to come out of it was the rush of modelling and converting, but even then most of it boiled down to sticking on a million goofy WYSIWYG upgrades, or gluing a set of ridiculously oversized arms on a warrior.
Cronch wrote: The problem with that is in historical wargaming, you can point to examples and say "this was how it went down. Two M4A1s and a platoon of GIs held out against a battalion of experienced Fallschirmjaegers" and that's it. Under "balanced" logic the FJs players is cheesing out, bringing no lowly grenadiers or Volksturm (depending on date) that "should" be the core of German forces. Because IRL armies are "balanced" on a far higher level than gamers are usually expecting to bring. In fantasy and sf gaming there is much greater pressure on "balanced" organization stemming from this unrealistic expectation of "realism" where "no army is made up of elites only".
I don't think that's a good argument.
Taking a Fallschirmjaeger army in something like Flames of War isn't cheesy. It's based on the TOE of a real combat unit. The game has rules for taking a Fallschirmjaeger army; they're not a single unit type in what is expected to be a more varied/balanced army. Beyond history, the game itself tells you what a Fallschirmjaeger deployment typically looks like.
Taking an army composed of more King Tigers than were ever able to assemble in one spot without breaking down, supported by every Stuka Zu Fuss ever constructed, and nothing else, is cheesy. It bears no relation to how these units were historically used.
Alternate army lists are fine in a fantasy context. Remember those variant lists that let you shift certain units from Special to Core, at the cost of making certain Core units Special and certain Special units Rare? Or in 40K, how playing Deathwing made your Terminators Troops choices? That's the equivalent to a Fallschirmjaeger army list. There's nothing stopping the designers from building these alternative army concepts into the rules.
In any case, I don't think many of the 'historically' minded players have an issue with themed armies that ask for gentle liberties on otherwise restrictive rules to accurately represent their subject matter. That's not what we're talking about here; we're talking about loose restrictions catering to skew lists that don't fit the fluff and are chosen for gameplay effectiveness.
I absolutely ADORED those appendix lists, while my brother, my regular opponent, detests them.
and it is a "Warhammer thing" that fluffy armies, eg armies that are build like the background suggest they should look like are weaker than other lists that just spam good units
for most historical games, taking the army as it is supposed to be results in a "competitive" list and something that can never win
and GW is able to make such rules, but they don't want to and think more of it as an accident were the core units can carry the game (and change it back to "core tax" as soon as possible)
and this also results into having a lot of different units that are no real option as for a core tax, the cheapest is always the best
same for chaff, health points for the hero etc. the one unit that can do it with less points is better than the other unit that may be more versatile but costs more
so for other games or settings it is not unusual that an army only consisting of core infantry or build according to the background (aka fluffy) will have an easy win against a list that just uses the minimum core to get in as many elite and support units as possible
That's what they should have lead with initially. I have come around to the concept art for the unit. But this is totally what I imagine when I think of elite kislev unit.
Nice unit of bear cavalry to bodyguard the general
While I like the art, this sort of feels like the continued flanderization of Kislev (or the whole thing they do with aliens in Star Wars). There was one ice witch, so now there's a whole unit of them with magic weapons. There was one guy on a bear, now we've a whole unit of bear cavalry.
Still looking forward to seeing what else is previewed.
While I like the look of it, that photo also makes it look huge in comparison to the rider. So are we talking about a unit of smaller thundertusk like bears, or a unit of Dracoline sized models?
Either way, I'm sure they'll be in no way similar in size to existing bear cavalry.
Kislev's martial forces are reknowned for their bear cavalry, where the 'ursus bruin' knights wear bearskins while riding bears, roaring their battlecry 'bears!' in a bearlike fashion, rattling their bearclaw necklaces, frightening their foes with bears, and bears, then bears, bears bears, bears bears bears. Bears? Bears bears bears bears bears. Bears bears.
Hopefully it's just heroic mount. Very cool heroic mount. I mean, "Many heroes of Kislev tame great bears and ride them to war. Forming a bond with their mighty beasts is not easy"
Emphasis mine.
Or at least a very limited elite unit. A Rare unit back when there was Core, Special and Rare.
After demigryphs, lion chariots, pegasususes, and so on, and so on, I'd be surprised. 'Monstrous cavalry' is a thing and every faction has to tick off that checklist. Stick it right in there no matter whether it's appropriate or daft. Give it a page or two of special rules ("Bear of the bear thing: the sheer beariness of bears does something kinda magical and arbitrary and poorly-explained. +1 strength. Or maybe armour save. Whatever.") and it'll fly off the shelves.
Strange thing is, if you class lion chariots and skycutters as, well, chariots, HE are the only faction stuck with plain old horses as cav. Remember those? All the caledorian monstrous cav just won't wake up.
There's one (1) bear with ice-crystal-magic-doohickeys. Let's suppose that's for General Elsa.
The coloured concept art has ornate (but not too ornate) armour, finished in gold trim. It has slightly un-civilised looking antlers and stuff attached to the saddle, knives, axes, gold tipped antlers as bear tusks - an onion-domed tower on the shoulder armour! Nothing that glows. None of the blades look magical - they look like they're for hitting people on the rare occasions that a polar bear isn't enough.
This looks like Kislev to me. This looks Warhammer. Something which can't actually happen in the real world, but Warhammer manages it with "He went out and tamed a bear because he's metal as hell" rather than "It was magic".
Reading between the lines of the latest post because I have nothing better to do during lockdown:
A few weeks ago, we saw an early look at one of the factions that’s in the works for the return of Warhammer’s Old World – the cold northern nation of Kislev.
So Kislev basically confirmed as being their own thing rather than just an Empire contingent. Interesting that one of the initial factions are one of the minor factions of WHFB. The previous article used more vague language about Kislev's role.
Many heroes of Kislev tame great bears and ride them to war. Forming a bond with their mighty beasts is not easy, but for those who do, it is lifelong – indeed, legend says that when Tsar Boris died, his loyal bear guarded his corpse for a day and a night before disappearing into the snow. Some of you might actually remember this classic model of Boris riding his bear from years past…
Interesting hint about the timeline there. Could be an out of continuity reference to Boris but the way it's written is like someone in the Warhammer world is saying it. Boris died in 2517 IC, a couple hundred years after the end of Era of Three Emperors and very shortly before the original WHFB era. Could just bit a slip up in the way they've written it while trying to add some flavour or a hint that we're going to get the same time period as WHFB. If it's the latter, then what of the names on the Empire map? Mild retconning of some positions in the Empire?
So basically all that End Times era Monstrous Cavalry stuff is going to be retconned back into the history of WFB?
Damn it, I guess all I can hope for now is balanced play and rank and flank combat. I'll not be getting rid of my 6th Ed. books, though. Something about this has my confidence pretty low.
pm713 wrote: The amount of jokes I'm going to make will be unbearable.
We'll just have to bear with it.
You and I are polar opposites on this. Such a whimsical climate will endanger this thread’s ability to live on topic. It’s already on thin ice. We’ll have to starve this line of discussion before things really heat up.
So, we see multiple designs for the bear. How much you want to be that we'll get something like Generic lord on bear, named character on bear, and Ice Sorceress on bear (who could also be a named character)? The armored bear has ice spikes, and I don't think we'd see that aesthetic armywide, save for the ice witches
Well, given their just concept sketches, who knows?
If you’ve seen Jes Godwin’s sketches for stuff like Marines and Eldar, it’s clear not everything is 100% set.
These could be concepts such as you suggest. They could also be very early ‘we could armour them like A, B or C’, the artist still getting their overall feel for the project.
Overread wrote: They show a photo of the old Mini which was part of Kisleve before they were removed from the game long before End Times.
They specified cavalry as in a unit, not a lone legendary hero on essentially a monster mount. This is hinting at them being Demigryff Knights but for Kislev, so my statement wasn't incorrect.
Looks like that Bear from the Golden Compass, which is definitely a good thing. Could also be one of the Bears pulling the White Witch's chariot from Lion, Witch & Wardrobe...which is something I'd love to make!
Shout out to the suggestion for use in Frostgrave.
Lord Damocles wrote: I feel like the antlers would get in the way of the bear biting stuff.
Was my first thought too. If it makes it to the final model will probably be separate bits though. So you could swap them to the opposite sides to try having them point back away from the face or just leave them off.
Just Tony wrote: So basically all that End Times era Monstrous Cavalry stuff is going to be retconned back into the history of WFB?
Damn it, I guess all I can hope for now is balanced play and rank and flank combat. I'll not be getting rid of my 6th Ed. books, though. Something about this has my confidence pretty low.
Although I understand the End Time aversion, most of the monstrous cavalry stuff was brought out during the run of 8th itself, some of it long (say 3-4 years) before the End Times was even a rumour.
The rules for monstrous variations of infantry, cavalry and beasts was present at the very start. I suspect this is because Ogres and Tomb Kings were some of the first books and armies to be done and Ogres got their Mornfang cav and TKs got their snake riders/snake gazer beasts. Also the stomp rules that gave some extra killing power to these, as well as thunderstomp for monsters. Although the janky cannon rules usually made a mockery of most monsters outside of some of the tougher TK ones and the infamous Frostheart phoenix.
If I recall correctly, the main End Times models were the Nagash one, the three Mortarchs (Neferata, Mannfred and Arkhan) and the morghasts. Everything else 'End Times' was world-killing fluff and game-killing rules (Khaine magic rules I'm looking at you).
Just Tony wrote: So basically all that End Times era Monstrous Cavalry stuff is going to be retconned back into the history of WFB?
Damn it, I guess all I can hope for now is balanced play and rank and flank combat. I'll not be getting rid of my 6th Ed. books, though. Something about this has my confidence pretty low.
Although I understand the End Time aversion, most of the monstrous cavalry stuff was brought out during the run of 8th itself, some of it long (say 3-4 years) before the End Times was even a rumour.
The rules for monstrous variations of infantry, cavalry and beasts was present at the very start. I suspect this is because Ogres and Tomb Kings were some of the first books and armies to be done and Ogres got their Mornfang cav and TKs got their snake riders/snake gazer beasts. Also the stomp rules that gave some extra killing power to these, as well as thunderstomp for monsters. Although the janky cannon rules usually made a mockery of most monsters outside of some of the tougher TK ones and the infamous Frostheart phoenix.
If I recall correctly, the main End Times models were the Nagash one, the three Mortarchs (Neferata, Mannfred and Arkhan) and the morghasts. Everything else 'End Times' was world-killing fluff and game-killing rules (Khaine magic rules I'm looking at you).
I've seen "bear cavalry" mentioned before in relation to Kislev, but I didn't realize until now they weren't actually something they already had, outside of 1 character. Will be interesting to see what else gets added, so far it doesn't seem like there's been much that doesn't seem to fit in with the lore (based on what the WFB RPG had) to some extent.
Just Tony wrote: So basically all that End Times era Monstrous Cavalry stuff is going to be retconned back into the history of WFB?
What do you mean by this? I only know of some WHFB from near the end, what sort of Monstrous Cavalry wasn't there before that?
Just Tony wrote: So basically all that End Times era Monstrous Cavalry stuff is going to be retconned back into the history of WFB?
Tuomas Pirinen wrote an army list for Kislev in Citadel Journal 15 ('96). One unit were the Sons of Ursa. Yes - Knights riding War-bears. And all of the characters could ride Great Bears (these were even better).
Just Tony wrote: So basically all that End Times era Monstrous Cavalry stuff is going to be retconned back into the history of WFB?
Tuomas Pirinen wrote an army list for Kislev in Citadel Journal 15 ('96). One unit were the Sons of Ursa. Yes - Knights riding War-bears. And all of the characters could ride Great Bears (these were even better).
They also had bear cavalry in Warmaster back in 2000 (with models)
And when the pamphlet came out with Storm of Chaos in 6th, while it didn’t have rules for bear cavalry, the ‘Eavy Metal example army had a unit of bear cavalry on it (on monster bases).
IIRC at the time everyone bitterly complained about the lack of a bear unit.
If they had made a proper army back in 2001 instead of a 3 unit and 1 character (plus two SCs) pamphlet it would almost certainly have had bear cavalry. There was a precisely zero chance GW would do Kislev without them now.
NB just had a read over my Kislev pamphlet - the blade of Tzar Boris’s (the dude in the bear in the WarCom pic) spear was made of ice by ‘ice wizards’.
I was fully expecting bear cavalry, and I don't actually mind them that much compared to something like Demigryphs because they're you know, bears. They're not some ridiculously rare, ridiculously dangerous magical beast that the faction inexplicably has loads of, they're animals, and importantly for suspension of disbelief they're animals that have been trained IRL. Extending that idea to training them to be mounts is a difference of degree, rather than category, and it's that difference that most of the objectionable additions made in increasing frequency from 7th Ed onwards didn't respect.
However I'm much less sanguine about the ice spikes. Yes, yes, it's "only" concept art, but it's concept art they've elected to show us so I don't expect the design will evolve all that much. I can only hope that the icicle-armour version is for a named character or otherwise rare, expensive, and hard-limited to a max of one per army model, but I have an awful suspicion that it isn't and we're going to get magic-ice-styled alt builds for most of the new units.
Regardless though, it's still not what I want to know about TOW. What I want to see are the *basics*, the foundations, the poor bloody infantry and their slightly better off horse riding compatriots. I want some indication that the Warhammer Fantasy I remember is in this thing somewhere.
Regardless though, it's still not what I want to know about TOW. What I want to see are the *basics*, the foundations, the poor bloody infantry and their slightly better off horse riding compatriots. I want some indication that the Warhammer Fantasy I remember is in this thing somewhere.
Oh, that's what I want to see too. Well, I hope they're just showing the more, well, 'exotic' concepts first. Would make some sense regarding 3rd party miniatures, especially at this stage of development.
Why would they bother showing that stuff when we've seen it all before?
We know what The Old World had. We know what the Empire was, we know what Bretonnia was, yadda yadda yadda. Kislev's getting fleshed out. If you don't like it, wait until we get closer to the game's actual release in 3-4 years.
Sure as hell wouldn't want to stand in front of them...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote: Why would they bother showing that stuff when we've seen it all before?
We know what The Old World had. We know what the Empire was, we know what Bretonnia was, yadda yadda yadda. Kislev's getting fleshed out. If you don't like it, wait until we get closer to the game's actual release in 3-4 years.
Yes, we know what the Old World had. People want confirmation that it still has it.
SamusDrake wrote: Looks like that Bear from the Golden Compass, which is definitely a good thing. Could also be one of the Bears pulling the White Witch's chariot from Lion, Witch & Wardrobe...which is something I'd love to make!
Shout out to the suggestion for use in Frostgrave.
You've just pointed out the exact problem with it. It's so indistinctive it could be from all or any of those. It has no distinctive features to call its own.
Just Tony wrote: So basically all that End Times era Monstrous Cavalry stuff is going to be retconned back into the history of WFB?
Damn it, I guess all I can hope for now is balanced play and rank and flank combat. I'll not be getting rid of my 6th Ed. books, though. Something about this has my confidence pretty low.
Although I understand the End Time aversion, most of the monstrous cavalry stuff was brought out during the run of 8th itself, some of it long (say 3-4 years) before the End Times was even a rumour.
The rules for monstrous variations of infantry, cavalry and beasts was present at the very start. I suspect this is because Ogres and Tomb Kings were some of the first books and armies to be done and Ogres got their Mornfang cav and TKs got their snake riders/snake gazer beasts. Also the stomp rules that gave some extra killing power to these, as well as thunderstomp for monsters. Although the janky cannon rules usually made a mockery of most monsters outside of some of the tougher TK ones and the infamous Frostheart phoenix.
If I recall correctly, the main End Times models were the Nagash one, the three Mortarchs (Neferata, Mannfred and Arkhan) and the morghasts. Everything else 'End Times' was world-killing fluff and game-killing rules (Khaine magic rules I'm looking at you).
The Skaven got the Stormfiends as well
Eldarain wrote: The Rotbringers (Glottkin, BKs, Maggoths) Thanquol and Stormfiends and the updated Bloodthirster were also part of it (going from memory)
You're right, I think I just blanked those from my memory.
Kanluwen wrote: It's called "The Old World", not "Age of Sigmar".
Safe bet is to assume that it will have it, no?
No.
GW is ultimately in the business of selling miniatures, so while it would certainly be nice if they produce a game that is fully compatible with everyone's existing collections, it won't be at all surprising if the armies are all completely redesigned to sell new minis, as happened with Necromunda.
Until GW confirm one way or another, people are going to continue to ask for confirmation about their armies.
Then I guess I'll continue saying this: It's something like two or three years out. They're showing something that we haven't seen before they get to the stuff that is likely to be unchanged.
You want to know what Empire stuff looks like? Click the "Freeguild" tab in Age of Sigmar.
Kanluwen wrote: Then I guess I'll continue saying this: It's something like two or three years out. They're showing something that we haven't seen before they get to the stuff that is likely to be unchanged.
Yeah, but I'm not sure why you feel the need to say this. We know they're showing stuff we haven't seen before, on account of not having seen it before.
That does nothing to assuage the concerns of people who want to know if they are going to be able to use their existing collections in the new game.
Because if someone can fill this thread with complaints about "I don't care until I see things I've already seen/know that my stuff I already own is in there", I can reiterate my statement that this is early days and they're showing us stuff that's actually a bit more interesting than just "Hey look, here's an Empire guy! He looks like...an Empire guy!".
I get that people want to "know if they are going to be able to use their existing collections in the new game"...but given that we still don't even know when this new game is coming? It seems a bit unreasonable to be expecting any kind of confirmation of what's in the game to be out there. We know that this game is supposed to be set during the time of Magnus, that's about all.
SamusDrake wrote: Looks like that Bear from the Golden Compass, which is definitely a good thing. Could also be one of the Bears pulling the White Witch's chariot from Lion, Witch & Wardrobe...which is something I'd love to make!
Shout out to the suggestion for use in Frostgrave.
You've just pointed out the exact problem with it. It's so indistinctive it could be from all or any of those. It has no distinctive features to call its own.
Yeah they should have covered it in swirly gak instead, much more distinctive.
Here's the thing - they don't actually even need to show pics of the old models, or the new versions of the old models, if that's the direction they're going. All it would take to stop the complaints is a simple 'Hey, the game is still two or three years away, so some stuff isn't locked down yet, but our goal is to make the game as compatible as possible with people's old WHFB armies. There may be some things that won't work in the new game, but if you have an old WHFB army you should generally be able to adapt it to the new game without too much trouble!'
And then carry on showing new stuff.
It's the uncertainty that is bugging people, and no amount of 'But this is the new stuff!!!' is going to change that. Yes, the game is still a while away, but if they're actively working on it, they already know what their design goals are for it.
Sure, they could totally do that...and then when plans change down the line the crowd that's raining on everyone else's parade right now will crow about how "SEE, THEY NEVER WERE GOING TO MAKE IT THE OLD WORLD! THEY JUST WANT TO SELL US CRAP!".
There's no reason for them to limit themselves just yet for what their plans are.
Kanluwen wrote: Sure, they could totally do that...and then when plans change down the line the crowd that's raining on everyone else's parade right now will crow about how "SEE, THEY NEVER WERE GOING TO MAKE IT THE OLD WORLD! THEY JUST WANT TO SELL US CRAP!".
There's no reason for them to limit themselves just yet for what their plans are.
If they're two to three years way from release, they're not going to just suddenly change whether or not they're completely redesigning all of the armies.
Yodhrin wrote: I was fully expecting bear cavalry, and I don't actually mind them that much compared to something like Demigryphs because they're you know, bears. They're not some ridiculously rare, ridiculously dangerous magical beast that the faction inexplicably has loads of, they're animals, and importantly for suspension of disbelief they're animals that have been trained IRL.
Yeah. Demigryphs... didn't blend well for me. Bear mounted hero, or even rare bear cavalery unit? Blends much better.
I don't even give a crap about other armies for the moment. I just want to know what the new versions of Kislev stuff I remember and wanted as a kid look like ffs. They can showcase as much daft high magic ice malarkey as they want, I can always just not buy it, I just want to know if they're going to deviate from the existing aesthetic for the basic units I actually plan to buy if they're good.
I'm more interested in the units that should be making up ~90% of my potential Kislev army than the snowflake(aha) stuff, sue me.
That was @Kan, btw. I should really start quoting folk again when replying threads move too quick for my old fingers.
What I want to see are the *basics*, the foundations, the poor bloody infantry and their slightly better off horse riding compatriots.
Well, I hope they're just showing the more, well, 'exotic' concepts first. Would make some sense regarding 3rd party miniatures, especially at this stage of development.
Despite the boom in historical plastics the last few years, GW still has that head start and produces very nice figures when they do it sober. Not to mention the whole scaling and proportion issue. Sometimes you can substitute historicals into your WFB army. Sometimes you want to see what GW makes, first. And see how removable the cow horns are.
Kanluwen wrote:the crowd that's raining on everyone else's parade right now
Yodhrin wrote: They can showcase as much daft high magic ice malarkey as they want, I can always just not buy it, I just want to know if they're going to deviate from the existing aesthetic for the basic units I actually plan to buy if they're good.
I'm more interested in the units that should be making up ~90% of my potential Kislev army than the snowflake(aha) stuff, sue me.
Same! If the next couple updates show new, improved plastic Kossars, Ungol horse archers, Winged Lancers, and Gryphon Legion, I'll be ecstatic.
I would like GW to make things as...compatible as possible with all the old Olde Worlde stuff but...
...I can't help but think they'll be highly motivated to get people to buy as many new miniatures as possible.
Now, clearly this much is obvious, I know!
But I'm not thinking that much of what has gone before will work well with what's coming up.
Even if it is as 'simple' a thing as all the new 'Olde Worlde" looking miniatures being upscaled just enough to make older minis look silly small?
Not to mention that a lot of the older minis just won't be that generally available anyway?
Still, I'll be happy to be proven wrong if GW goes against type and releases a game that let all the old vets happily play their collections up against all the new stuff too, and everything fits just fine!
Well, that was.. unsurprising! As soon as Kislev was announed, bear cav were bound to follow sooner or later. Certainly happier with them than the ice witch unit, though I'm still more interested in the common horse-mounted soldier than the (hopefully) rare bear-mounted one. Naturally, the bears had to become substantially bigger and fancier than Boris' old one, but I guess a new hero will have an even larger and more impressive version. Only really worried what a new even larger centrepiece monster would be if a big bear is unlikely to cut it anymore. A massive ice elemental (possibly shaped like a bear) or so? Well, let's not get worried about that just yet.
Well then GW, show us some horsies and streltsi next! Two previews of unique exotic things to make people interested (or lose hope, depending on preferences), but surely it makes sense to then continue with ordinary figures that would make up the bulk of the army, saving some surprises for a time closer to reveal.
"Between the chill winters and constant threat of marauding enemies, the people of Kislev are hard and constantly ready for battle, and they use all the meagre resources of their country to their advantage… including the most abundant of their native animals."
You've just pointed out the exact problem with it. It's so indistinctive it could be from all or any of those. It has no distinctive features to call its own.
You've just pointed out the exact problem with it. It's so indistinctive it could be from all or any of those. It has no distinctive features to call its own.
Quite right Gideon.
It’s an armoured polar bear. I’m not really sure how different an armoured polar bear can be without changing much to point where people would probably be complaining that it looks over worked or isn’t a polar bear any more or something. The armour doesn’t even look that much like the armour from Golden Compass other than being bear shaped.
"Between the chill winters and constant threat of marauding enemies, the people of Kislev are hard and constantly ready for battle, and they use all the meagre resources of their country to their advantage… including the most abundant of their native animals."
the most abundant of their native animals
Really?
GW? Ordinary? Good luck on that wish. Odds are stacked against you.
I suspect we'll be seeing Empire, Kislev, Orcs and Goblins, and Chaos Hordes as the first batch of armies, as a lot of the groundwork for most of the armies is already in place, and it should fit the timeline they're setting it in. May be a few additions, like Dwarves and maybe Undead, but we'll just have to wait and see. Impressed with the concepts so far for Kislev, the units previewed could easily be used as substitutes in AoS for Cities units so they will likely see use regardless of how well the new game does initially.
I never got that bear rider, but as a kid I wanted it to make a Panzerbjørn ridden by a Imperial Guard officer or Commissar. With three gatlings/assault cannons, one on each front paw, one under his maw Trollkin have bear units and cav, too, but PP prices are even worse than GW here, so I never got them, either.
If they tripple his original price I'll have to get that bear.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote:Two previews of unique exotic things
How unique, tho, is the subtle distinction we're trying to wrangle.
"Between the chill winters and constant threat of marauding enemies, the people of Kislev are hard and constantly ready for battle, and they use all the meagre resources of their country to their advantage… including the most abundant of their native animals."
Yodhrin wrote: They can showcase as much daft high magic ice malarkey as they want, I can always just not buy it, I just want to know if they're going to deviate from the existing aesthetic for the basic units I actually plan to buy if they're good.
I'm more interested in the units that should be making up ~90% of my potential Kislev army than the snowflake(aha) stuff, sue me.
Same! If the next couple updates show new, improved plastic Kossars, Ungol horse archers, Winged Lancers, and Gryphon Legion, I'll be ecstatic.
I really want them to introduce Winged Lancers, just to see all of the Sabaton Memes.
Graphite wrote: Dire-lemmings arrive when Clan Moulder can breed them.
Not good enough! Between the chill winters and the threat of marauding enemies, we cannot wait! We must use whatever meagre resources our country possesses, now! Bring me three hundred and forty-seven lemmings and lash them to this dog sle- ah I mean unique and characterful war-chariot!
I can see it. A whiteboard at the head of a roomful of GW... creatives. "Okay guys, Kislev is kinda sorta like Russia, so what things do we know about Russia that we can use to make this lot different?"
"Well it's snowy and icy, I guess? And there's cossacks? And they have a thing about bears...?"
Lemmings only missed the cut because the GW studio never read the Beano.
I think GW has a difficult task ahead with the Old World. As others have said the uncertainty is awkward and when we get paragraphs like this:
The Old World is to Warhammer Age of Sigmar, as the Horus Heresy is to Warhammer 40,000. The bedrock of lore from which mortals rose to godhood and legends were forged. And like the Horus Heresy, seeing those mythic heroes in action has an undeniable appeal, as does re-creating the glorious armies of a previous epoch – an exciting proposition for hobbyists and gamers alike. And now, we have a dedicated team in the Warhammer Studio beginning the work of bringing all that awesome back to the tabletop.
There are a number of implications a person can make. To make the big, obvious speculation, It could be the familiar form of 8th, as in 8.5 (or 9thish), or it could be something completely different that reflects the skirmish orientation of their other systems and sets.
Also, will we be seeing the multitude of faction variations that exist in AOS and to a lesser extent in 40k (GSC and Harlies come to mind)? Or will it be more the old style of fixed factions that can be built for variation (e.g. playing O&Gs as themes like night goblins or savage orcs etc..) but are also the whole faction? Will we be getting the 'chapter tactics' treatment of 6 or so variations to dedicate units to in order to receive some fixed bonus? However, this is more 40k than AOS, though vampire bloodlines and other such things did exist, they also had a bit more specific stuff for them.
How much has the success of the Total War: Warhammer series influenced this? There is a lot more variation in unit choices (not necessarily new and unique) in TW:WH 1 & 2, and soon to be 3.
There are a ton of generic regiments of renown, for example, there are also the fleshed out faction(s?) for what were previously a foot-note list relying on conversion, like the Vampire Coast. Also armies like Bretonnia get peasant mobs, about 3-4 different types of Men at Arms and at least 2-3 variations of grail knight unit that I can think of (1 of them is on pegasus I believe).
If this has a larger influence, like I suspect, then it could produce an unusual mix of the new(ish) with the old (especially given the new units seen in the latest TW:WH2 DLC such as lava arachnarocks, though the Grom the Paunch 3D model is brilliant and looks just like the newer art in the 8th book).
I think many would be happy to have 6th edition back, some 8th (I'd be interested in either personally) and some may even want 7th....etc. But the old model-count to usefulness is still an unspoken issue. 40k has also walked down this path in recent years, poor Tyranid and Orks players, and the old problem of paying the same price for 10 models as 40k but only being 1/3 of the average squad (outside of horde units) may rear it's head again.
Hell, for all we know so far, this could just be set up with a 'good' and 'evil' army list mixing together a small teams of units cherry picked from all of the old WHFB factions...
Wunzlez wrote: I think GW has a difficult task ahead with the Old World. As others have said the uncertainty is awkward and when we get paragraphs like this:
The Old World is to Warhammer Age of Sigmar, as the Horus Heresy is to Warhammer 40,000. The bedrock of lore from which mortals rose to godhood and legends were forged. And like the Horus Heresy, seeing those mythic heroes in action has an undeniable appeal, as does re-creating the glorious armies of a previous epoch – an exciting proposition for hobbyists and gamers alike. And now, we have a dedicated team in the Warhammer Studio beginning the work of bringing all that awesome back to the tabletop.
I have all sorts of problems with that, just from the first line.
If anything, AoS is to the Old World as the Horus Heresy is (or became) to 40K: an attempt to squeeze more money out of a the-same-but-different variation of a familiar setting.
It seems to me based on what little they've shown so far that the game will have a strong human focus. I'm willing to bet that whatever the initial wave of releases is will be ~80% generic (i.e. this is a box of spearmen, this is a box of bowmen, etc. there are some bits or transfers depicting heraldry of the various relevant human factions so you can customize them to some extent), with the remaining 20% being unique stuff (characters, bear cav, other unique/special units).
That being said, I can't help but feel GW is putting the cart before the horse (or bear) - we still have no idea what the game is or anything about it, its supposed release is probably 3-5 years away by their own statement, but they are showing us faction/unit design artwork?
Happy with all they have shown so far - as has been catogorically shown the Bears in particular have been part of the army backround for several decades .
I bought pack of these and hope the GW versions look as good.
chaos0xomega wrote: It seems to me based on what little they've shown so far that the game will have a strong human focus. I'm willing to bet that whatever the initial wave of releases is will be ~80% generic (i.e. this is a box of spearmen, this is a box of bowmen, etc. there are some bits or transfers depicting heraldry of the various relevant human factions so you can customize them to some extent), with the remaining 20% being unique stuff (characters, bear cav, other unique/special units).
That being said, I can't help but feel GW is putting the cart before the horse (or bear) - we still have no idea what the game is or anything about it, its supposed release is probably 3-5 years away by their own statement, but they are showing us faction/unit design artwork?
If the models are cool they will be bought for both AoS and 40k proxies and conversions (hell, I'm sure they will all get proper rules for AoS)- the rules could be terrible and there would still.be a market
It’s an armoured polar bear. I’m not really sure how different an armoured polar bear can be without changing much to point where people would probably be complaining that it looks over worked or isn’t a polar bear any more or something. The armour doesn’t even look that much like the armour from Golden Compass other than being bear shaped.
There are certainly differences when one puts the two designs beside each other - the Antlers, for instance. But it really was the first thing that came to mind upon seeing it.
I really don't mind though and looking forward to seeing the final sculpt when it finally emerges. Would love to do a White Witch chariot style piece - maybe with a Daughter of Khaine or female Stormcast screaming "Yah!!!".
So catching up on this thread from my last reply brings me to one conclusion:
I was wrong, there IS a precedent for bear cavalry units for Kislev.
That being said, I have to make two offhand comments:
1. I sincerely forgot Citadel Journal was a thing, and now I'm wondering how many lovely 6th Ed. pieces of gaming material I missed out on.
2. I don't feel bad about missing the Warmaster thing. The 7 people who played Warmaster had my back on this, apparently. I also have to amend what I said about Warmaster previously as it actually DID bring something unitwise that couldn't simply be played in WFB proper.
NOW to get back to the flow of the topic: I am now wondering how long it'll take to get Stormcasts retconned into WFB. It looks like this new game will most assuredly be as WoW as AOS is, and that may kill any buying interest I have short of stockpiling squares if they even bring those back. I'm starting to get more skeptical by the second.
To the comment about everyone having monstrous cav units, they don’t.
Lizardmen still don’t have any despite having the most potential for it of any army.
They just keep giving them big dinos instead.
Bear cav are a nice touch too.
Brings it back closer for me and as long as the execution is right, they should be solid.
I’d also hazard a guess that anything coming out will be ported into other systems too.
The potential for easy cash on double sales will be too much for them to resist.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I mean, Kislev are Russians. Did you think they won't get bear cav?
Kislev are not Russians. That region 'represents' a vast mid-east European region/culture including Polish from where the famous Winged Riders (Hussars) come from. At least that was I was always imaging.
GW is making a big joke out of this whole Old World. Teasing some crappy pics/sketches of some Kislev units (which most old WHFB do not care at all) instead of giving some proper info/teasers of that refreshed system (I hope that is what is going to happen )
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I mean, Kislev are Russians. Did you think they won't get bear cav?
Kislev are not Russians. That region 'represents' a vast mid-east European region/culture including Polish from where the famous Winged Riders (Hussars) come from. At least that was I was always imaging.
GW is making a big joke out of this whole Old World. Teasing some crappy pics/sketches of some Kislev units (which most old WHFB do not care at all) instead of giving some proper info/teasers of that refreshed system (I hope that is what is going to happen )
Well, yes, true. Russians are one of the influences though, and I just couldn't resist referencing this gem :
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I mean, Kislev are Russians. Did you think they won't get bear cav?
Kislev are not Russians. That region 'represents' a vast mid-east European region/culture including Polish from where the famous Winged Riders (Hussars) come from. At least that was I was always imaging.
GW is making a big joke out of this whole Old World. Teasing some crappy pics/sketches of some Kislev units (which most old WHFB do not care at all) instead of giving some proper info/teasers of that refreshed system (I hope that is what is going to happen )
This is a project that we won’t see live for a long time.
Proper info won’t even be a thing yet.
Seems like it’s all in the theory stage still, so nothing is concrete about it.
We don’t usually get solid info until a month or less before release.
If you want to start seeing rules blocked in and aspects of how it works, you’re in for a long wait.
Just Tony wrote: So catching up on this thread from my last reply brings me to one conclusion:
I was wrong, there IS a precedent for bear cavalry units for Kislev.
That being said, I have to make two offhand comments:
1. I sincerely forgot Citadel Journal was a thing, and now I'm wondering how many lovely 6th Ed. pieces of gaming material I missed out on.
2. I don't feel bad about missing the Warmaster thing. The 7 people who played Warmaster had my back on this, apparently. I also have to amend what I said about Warmaster previously as it actually DID bring something unitwise that couldn't simply be played in WFB proper.
NOW to get back to the flow of the topic: I am now wondering how long it'll take to get Stormcasts retconned into WFB. It looks like this new game will most assuredly be as WoW as AOS is, and that may kill any buying interest I have short of stockpiling squares if they even bring those back. I'm starting to get more skeptical by the second.
To be fair, cynicism is a good defence against disappointment.
I would love to see common goblin units and common orc units get new models, but I feel that's unlikely to happen.
Wunzlez wrote: I think GW has a difficult task ahead with the Old World. As others have said the uncertainty is awkward and when we get paragraphs like this:
The Old World is to Warhammer Age of Sigmar, as the Horus Heresy is to Warhammer 40,000. The bedrock of lore from which mortals rose to godhood and legends were forged. And like the Horus Heresy, seeing those mythic heroes in action has an undeniable appeal, as does re-creating the glorious armies of a previous epoch – an exciting proposition for hobbyists and gamers alike. And now, we have a dedicated team in the Warhammer Studio beginning the work of bringing all that awesome back to the tabletop.
I just had a vision of 54mm AOS characters playing 6mm WFB games.
Think of the unique dynamic as you the player issue an order to Stormcast Phred to move his bear cavalry to flank FyrSyr Phrank's Night Goblins.
Roll against Phred's stubbornness score to see if he obeys, then apply his die-rolling skill to see if the attack succeeds which your opponent rolls against Phrank's Strategy Rating to see if he moves up his reinforcement.
So far I do kind of like that the game will be limited in scope. It will allow for more specific sub-factions. Especially in an area of the old world that we kinda know stuff about, but nothing too crazy.
Wunzlez wrote: I think GW has a difficult task ahead with the Old World. As others have said the uncertainty is awkward and when we get paragraphs like this:
The Old World is to Warhammer Age of Sigmar, as the Horus Heresy is to Warhammer 40,000. The bedrock of lore from which mortals rose to godhood and legends were forged. And like the Horus Heresy, seeing those mythic heroes in action has an undeniable appeal, as does re-creating the glorious armies of a previous epoch – an exciting proposition for hobbyists and gamers alike. And now, we have a dedicated team in the Warhammer Studio beginning the work of bringing all that awesome back to the tabletop.
I just had a vision of 54mm AOS characters playing 6mm WFB games.
Think of the unique dynamic as you the player issue an order to Stormcast Phred to move his bear cavalry to flank FyrSyr Phrank's Night Goblins.
Roll against Phred's stubbornness score to see if he obeys, then apply his die-rolling skill to see if the attack succeeds which your opponent rolls against Phrank's Strategy Rating to see if he moves up his reinforcement.
The possibilities are endless!
Don't forget having to roll on a chart to see what chart you're going to be rolling on.
Wunzlez wrote: I think GW has a difficult task ahead with the Old World. As others have said the uncertainty is awkward and when we get paragraphs like this:
The Old World is to Warhammer Age of Sigmar, as the Horus Heresy is to Warhammer 40,000. The bedrock of lore from which mortals rose to godhood and legends were forged. And like the Horus Heresy, seeing those mythic heroes in action has an undeniable appeal, as does re-creating the glorious armies of a previous epoch – an exciting proposition for hobbyists and gamers alike. And now, we have a dedicated team in the Warhammer Studio beginning the work of bringing all that awesome back to the tabletop.
I just had a vision of 54mm AOS characters playing 6mm WFB games.
Think of the unique dynamic as you the player issue an order to Stormcast Phred to move his bear cavalry to flank FyrSyr Phrank's Night Goblins.
Roll against Phred's stubbornness score to see if he obeys, then apply his die-rolling skill to see if the attack succeeds which your opponent rolls against Phrank's Strategy Rating to see if he moves up his reinforcement.
The possibilities are endless!
Don't forget having to roll on a chart to see what chart you're going to be rolling on.
On a 999 or 1000, roll on the mutation chart in the Warhammer World exclusive Realm of Chaos books.
Wunzlez wrote: I think GW has a difficult task ahead with the Old World. As others have said the uncertainty is awkward and when we get paragraphs like this:
The Old World is to Warhammer Age of Sigmar, as the Horus Heresy is to Warhammer 40,000. The bedrock of lore from which mortals rose to godhood and legends were forged. And like the Horus Heresy, seeing those mythic heroes in action has an undeniable appeal, as does re-creating the glorious armies of a previous epoch – an exciting proposition for hobbyists and gamers alike. And now, we have a dedicated team in the Warhammer Studio beginning the work of bringing all that awesome back to the tabletop.
I just had a vision of 54mm AOS characters playing 6mm WFB games.
Think of the unique dynamic as you the player issue an order to Stormcast Phred to move his bear cavalry to flank FyrSyr Phrank's Night Goblins.
Roll against Phred's stubbornness score to see if he obeys, then apply his die-rolling skill to see if the attack succeeds which your opponent rolls against Phrank's Strategy Rating to see if he moves up his reinforcement.
The possibilities are endless!
Don't forget having to roll on a chart to see what chart you're going to be rolling on.
On a 999 or 1000, roll on the mutation chart in the Warhammer World exclusive Realm of Chaos books.
Apply a -150 modifier if you physically twirl your moustache.
I wonder where this is going to go. GW can either knock this out of park or it will fizzle out. It depends which races they support. If they support the secondary and tertiary races like kislev, nippon, cathay and araby and don't include some of the famous races like high elves, dwarfs, lizardmen, etc then I don't expect this to last long. Surely GW know it is the races that made Total War Warhammer such a success. People don't want asian humans, slavic humans, indian humans, etc. I remember when Kislev were supported, they were never as popular as the main races. Even when it was acceptable to proxy Kislev models with Empire rules they were still very very rare.
Anything less than all 16 of the original races would be a disaster because they are what makes the WHFB setting what it is. It would be like making a 30k Horus Heresy game but basing on what the Eldar were doing at that time, or leaving whole chapters or primarchs out.
I'd honestly expect the 'initial launch' to be something akin to what Chaosbane has for races:
-Chaos(Daemons, Beasts, and Warriors are all fairly well supported with plastic kits right now)
-Empire and Kislev
-Dwarfs
-High Elves
-Token Wood Elf presence
Man, I’m on the other side. I want Kislev, Araby, Nippon and Cathay. GW already have models for those other races (although they might need to dust off some molds)—they can wait to reinvent the dwarf for the fourth time, and give us something new that still fits that Old World.
Do you think we'd get elves? This is set 500ish years prior to the original setting. Were elves actively away from Ulthuan at the time? Personally, I'm hoping we'll get more dwarfs before we get elves. (Unless we get a fantasy style dwarf faction in AOS, akin to the Lumineth. Then I'd be fine waiting)
GaroRobe wrote: Do you think we'd get elves? This is set 500ish years prior to the original setting. Were elves actively away from Ulthuan at the time? Personally, I'm hoping we'll get more dwarfs before we get elves. (Unless we get a fantasy style dwarf faction in AOS, akin to the Lumineth. Then I'd be fine waiting)
We've gotten two Dwarf factions in AoS.
Anyways:
Spoiler:
If you look up on the map there, you can see the Laurelorn Forest. There's an Asrai community there, which Chaosbane has now fluffed as having sent a contingent of Waywatchers to act as scouts for Magnus' army(which is the time period that this is supposed to be sent in) not long after the battles in Kislev. And yeah, the Elves were away from Ulthuan. Teclis was sent to train humans in magic as the High Elves believed that if men fell, there'd be issues and whatnots for the Elves.
The understanding I have at the moment is that we're looking at the Great War Against Chaos as the timeframe for this. There's room for Dwarfs, Elves, Humans, and Chaos of all sorts.
Vermis wrote: Huh, there's a sea between Norsca and the Chaos wastes now. I like it.
Alpharius wrote:16 out of the gate - or even soon thereafter - is probably too much to wish for.
How many factions need units replaced or redone?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Man, I’m on the other side. I want Kislev, Araby, Nippon and Cathay.
I'd settle for Estalia and Tilea.
There always has been afaik, it's just the map didn't go north of Norsca when it was drawn. Only rarely when you got wider scoped maps did you see the sea of chaos - which I believe is generally covered in pack ice anyway
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Man, I’m on the other side. I want Kislev, Araby, Nippon and Cathay. GW already have models for those other races (although they might need to dust off some molds)—they can wait to reinvent the dwarf for the fourth time, and give us something new that still fits that Old World.
I doubt we'd get them, all maps and teasers indicate it's Empire based, but yeah, I would have loved to see GW do a fantasy faction grounded in India, the Arabian peninsula or somewhere else far afield. Even China and Japan would be a nice change even though others have covered that ground.
The main problem is that while Japanese folks don't seem to mind their history, myth and religion being mined for fantasy material (and do quite a bit of it themselves) people in other parts of the world react... let's just say vigorously and enthusiastically to some portrayals.
And then we have the Lizard Man, visually referring to Pre-Columbian America but with names like Tik Tak Toe and Grimloque, which shows about the extent of scholarship GW has put into their non-European factions. So it might be for the best if we don't see Cathay, Yind and Nippon.
Given this project is called "The old world" and the map cover "the old World" I think its a safe bet to think its based in "the old World".
Looks like an obvious focus on norsca compared to older maps, for what its worth.
Perhaps well se an obvious GoT rip of with northen barbarians trying to ally with Empire and Kislev against the northen chaos invasion, and the rest of the Empire stuggle with petty civil war grabs for power.
The twist beeing the Norscan commander supported by the empire is really young Archaon
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Man, I’m on the other side. I want Kislev, Araby, Nippon and Cathay. GW already have models for those other races (although they might need to dust off some molds)—they can wait to reinvent the dwarf for the fourth time, and give us something new that still fits that Old World.
I doubt we'd get them, all maps and teasers indicate it's Empire based, but yeah, I would have loved to see GW do a fantasy faction grounded in India, the Arabian peninsula or somewhere else far afield. Even China and Japan would be a nice change even though others have covered that ground.
The main problem is that while Japanese folks don't seem to mind their history, myth and religion being mined for fantasy material (and do quite a bit of it themselves) people in other parts of the world react... let's just say vigorously and enthusiastically to some portrayals.
And then we have the Lizard Man, visually referring to Pre-Columbian America but with names like Tik Tak Toe and Grimloque, which shows about the extent of scholarship GW has put into their non-European factions. So it might be for the best if we don't see Cathay, Yind and Nippon.
I would like the crusade period set in Estalia and Araby, but in today's culture that might "not go to well" with some people.
I think most of the original characters names for all factions were "tongue in cheek". Like that german looking guy with the black helmet, [German Name] Black-helmet (in german).
Not to say that we shouldn't take racism seriously, but everything can and will be taken the wrong way.
Fayric wrote: Given this project is called "The old world" and the map cover "the old World" I think its a safe bet to think its based in "the old World".
I agree, just one thing. I thought the Old World referred to, y'know, the world. Did it only refer to WHFB Europe?
Looks like an obvious focus on norsca compared to older maps, for what its worth.
Perhaps well se an obvious GoT rip of with northen barbarians trying to ally with Empire and Kislev against the northen chaos invasion, and the rest of the Empire stuggle with petty civil war grabs for power.
The twist beeing the Norscan commander supported by the empire is really young Archaon
Fayric wrote: Given this project is called "The old world" and the map cover "the old World" I think its a safe bet to think its based in "the old World".
I agree, just one thing. I thought the Old World referred to, y'know, the world. Did it only refer to WHFB Europe?
Looks like an obvious focus on norsca compared to older maps, for what its worth.
Perhaps well se an obvious GoT rip of with northen barbarians trying to ally with Empire and Kislev against the northen chaos invasion, and the rest of the Empire stuggle with petty civil war grabs for power.
The twist beeing the Norscan commander supported by the empire is really young Archaon
I like that idea a lot.
The old world in original wfb/wfrp was just fantasy Europe. Its a literal reference to the Eurocentric view of everywhere else being the new world.
Another thing, and this is very obvious and discussed ad nauseam I know, but I hope they stick to the less overworked details of models past.
One of the reasons I quite like the Gloomspite Gitz from AOS is, barring a few overly-detailed monstrosities, most of their range has kept to a decent, elegant standard of not being drowned in the noise of excessive detail. The old night gobbos are the same models of course, but the stone trolls (only slightly more reworked than the old metals), the squig herds and hoppers, would fit in fine in a WHFB army I think.
As an example, I'm currently doing a commission paintjob for the Blackstone Fortress set, and while I like the traitor guard and beastmen of that set, the level of detail is a bit exhausting at times. Especially when I compare them to models like the Ur-ghul from the same set, where a simple and effective paint-scheme (which is also much harder to mess up) looks just as good, if not better, than the ones I've spent ages on because of the detail.
Some of that might be because of it being a board-game where you focus on only a few models at a time, but that's just an example. Stormcast Liberators are space-marine levels of smooth and simple, for the most part, but other models in their army are more exhausting and have become so over time.
It's like a director who can't help abusing CGI because of the 'wow' factor and ease (at least from a directing perspective) of taking something from imagination into reality. But not every imagined idea is a good one and CGI serves a perfectly good function, but can be jarring in the wrong place if overused.
Wunzlez wrote: Another thing, and this is very obvious and discussed ad nauseam I know, but I hope they stick to the less overworked details of models past.
But, but, but, being rolled in spikes and filigree and greebling and glitter is how you tell a mini's good!
And then we have the Lizard Man, visually referring to Pre-Columbian America but with names like Tik Tak Toe and Grimloque, which shows about the extent of scholarship GW has put into their non-European factions. So it might be for the best if we don't see Cathay, Yind and Nippon.
There are joke names throughout warhammer and 40k - it was part of the original theme.
I just can't believe how forward GW are these days in letting everyone know of their plans.
It wasn't that long ago that it would have been two days before a release: some brave guy in Poland had taken a blurred picture of White Dwarf while in a toilet cubicle, or Beasts of War had some crudely hand drawn copy of something that had been leaked as they were trying to share what they knew without being sued.
Pacific wrote: I just can't believe how forward GW are these days in letting everyone know of their plans.
GW went through a phase of top management wanting to control their company and market. I think it was spurred on by Movie-style secrecy as well when they picked up Lord of the Rings. IT's also reinforced by some of their own internal company divisions of teams. When AoS came out it was a shock to many people in key teams at the GW offices - that's bad practice considering that many of them were working on or toward Old World projects and interests at the same time.
There was also the fact that GW back then did not like the internet. They'd tried and they'd missmanaged and had their own forums turn into a trollish hellfire. So whilst everyone else was jumping on twitter, youtube and facebook - GW was running the other way. The management changes have turned those around to an insane level to the point where now GW is happy to have 7 days of online marketing every week; to where they've run twitch streams every DAY during lockdown near enough; to where they've invested in an intenral video studio of their own.
I think also it was about realising that White Dwarf had value beyond just being a product catalogue. That they could put content in there and improve it beyond making it valuable as a product to sell their advertising of the latest game releases. That was another big change - because WD does generate profits for them so I figure part of their earlier approach was trying to protect that income by seeing it as being popular purely for the preview articles. A shift in attitude and now preview articles are free online.
Isn't the sea one of the reasons that the Norse are less chaotic?
If it is Great War Against Chaos, I suspect that there should be quite a few human factions. And if they want to do slightly different Dwarfs, the Norse Dwarfs are right slap bang in the middle of things.
Graphite wrote: Isn't the sea one of the reasons that the Norse are less chaotic?
If it is Great War Against Chaos, I suspect that there should be quite a few human factions. And if they want to do slightly different Dwarfs, the Norse Dwarfs are right slap bang in the middle of things.
And then we have the Lizard Man, visually referring to Pre-Columbian America but with names like Tik Tak Toe and Grimloque, which shows about the extent of scholarship GW has put into their non-European factions. So it might be for the best if we don't see Cathay, Yind and Nippon.
Why though? Lizardmen are cool, and their portrayal is no more or less slapdash than Albion's or Bretonnia's are of Celtic Britain or Arthurian England/France - should I be up in arms about the faction that draws from my culture depicting them as primitive morons too stupid to read or write and gets half the mythology "wrong"? Even if I were to take that attitude, GW should absolutely ignore me. A lot of the people who were working for GW when stuff like Lizardmen were created were huge history buffs, I'd be willing to bet they knew more about Pre-Columbian America than 99% of the people who would criticise them for Lizardmen do, they did stuff like Tik Tak Toe because it's a bit of fun.
Crikey when did puns become verboten?
Self-censorship to avoid the bawling of culture warriors who are never going to buy your product regardless of how much you appease them isn't "for the best".
Graphite wrote:Isn't the sea one of the reasons that the Norse are less chaotic?
All this time I wondered why the norscans had any kind of distinctiveness when everything north of troll country was warpdust-coated crazy nutso Chaos territory, and why they weren't just typical spiky chaos warriors and marauders. That there was an extra sea there all this time, cutting Norsca off, helps explain it. Still Chaos influenced, but not swamped.
Interested to see a bit more about norse dwarfs too.
.
I would have liked that a lot better as a miniature.
? It's a business first and foremost.
