I would guess WH:TOW will come out first with a book for Everyone, like 8th edition 40k, and then after will start focusing on races involved on some bigger campaign, like psychic awakening.
Something like:
Rulebook
Index: Everyone army lists
Emperors campaign book 1: The Empire (duh)
Emperors campaign book 2: orks, dwarves??
Emperors campaign book 3: beastmen, bretonnians?
ph34r wrote: I would guess WH:TOW will come out first with a book for Everyone, like 8th edition 40k, and then after will start focusing on races involved on some bigger campaign, like psychic awakening.
Something like:
Rulebook
Index: Everyone army lists
Emperors campaign book 1: The Empire (duh)
Emperors campaign book 2: orks, dwarves??
Emperors campaign book 3: beastmen, bretonnians?
If they follow the Horus Heresy model and focus on the Empire and campaigns, it will likely be:
Book 1: The Three Emperors (Focuses on the Empire City States)
Book 2: Waaagh Gorbad Ironclaw
Book 3: The Vampire Wars - Part 1: Vlad Von Carstein.
Book 4: The Vampire Wars - Part 2: Konrad Von Carstein
Book 5: The Vampire Wars - Part 3: Manfred Von Carstein.
Book 6: The Great War Against Chaos - Part 1: The Invasion Begins
Book 7: The Great War Against Chaos - Part 2: The Siege of Prague
Book 8: The Great War Against Chaos - Part 3: The Battle for Kislev
Argive wrote: If they do a full Kislev faction I think I will loose my mind and all my monies.
Same, and I wouldn't regret a thing. Been eyeing terribly overpriced Kislevites on ebay for too long not to be easily swayed.
Map-wise, it would be a logical inclusion, and I would argue a great draw for veterans. Could also tie in with Total War, as the Third game may well feature Kislev...
lord_blackfang wrote: Hahaha people be talking about model ranges for human subfactions and I'm the crazy one for thinking it will be a different scale.
If they were to produce a Kislev subfaction by some miracle it would still be playable in AOS or even older systems. If they move the entire thing to a new scale that fits neither WFB or Warmaster, it will fail and only every be useful in that one ruleset. No, scale change is a pipe dream and you ARE crazy for thinking that GW would swing it that way.
Nibbler wrote: Maybe it's going to be something like Apocalypse, but for Fantasy?
Take the Apoc unit trays, call them regimentbase and insert factions - done
okay, not really "done" done, but you get the idea...
So essentially trayed AOS despite explicitly showing a square slottabase and pointing out its setting in the Old World?
No, it's not going to be that. If they wanted to do trayed AOS they would simply do trayed AOS. This is going to be something different than AOS or it will be DOA.
Dont put anything past them. I could see it being trayed AOS. Simply because thats the thing I'd want least lol and that seems to be par for the GW course for me over the past many years.
auticus wrote: Dont put anything past them. I could see it being trayed AOS. Simply because thats the thing I'd want least lol and that seems to be par for the GW course for me over the past many years.
While that is unfortunately as accurate a way of predicting what GW is going to do as any, I don't think it's going to happen in this case. Old World is Forge World and the main studio will want to keep an AoS version with movement trays for themselves for a future expansion. Forge World using the same system, and potentially earlier at that, would be awkward.
Given Old World is Forge World's system I think it will go much like Specialist Games systems. It will recognizably hark back to old Warhammer Fantasy in feel to play on people's nostalgia, but get some modern mechanics and miniature designs that the current designers just can't do without, for good or ill. It'll have a slowish release pace and it'll have a strong microtransaction feel. But if you liked Warhammer Fantasy at any point in the last twenty years, you'll probably get something that is reminiscent of that to a degree that it feels good enough as a new version of Warhammer Fantasy.
lord_blackfang wrote: Hahaha people be talking about model ranges for human subfactions and I'm the crazy one for thinking it will be a different scale.
I mean I think you are crazy for thinking it will be a different scale.
But I’m putting anyone who suggests an army that isn’t one of the previous ones, in that same crazy camp.
Caveat: if this thing sells well and does great things, then after all the old armies are out, sure I could see them moving to something new, but it would be way down the line.
Also, I mean all the previous armies, that would be about in the setting they choose, obviously some they may skip over, and then could get to new lists quicker, but all the elves dwarfs empire chaos undead etc would all be first.
And empire may well look different, ish, but not as different as looking Kislevite or anything, they’d have to be their own new thing..)
I mean I think you are crazy for thinking it will be a different scale.
But I’m putting anyone who suggests an army that isn’t one of the previous ones, in that same crazy camp.
Caveat: if this thing sells well and does great things, then after all the old armies are out, sure I could see them moving to something new, but it would be way down the line.
Also, I mean all the previous armies, that would be about in the setting they choose, obviously some they may skip over, and then could get to new lists quicker, but all the elves dwarfs empire chaos undead etc would all be first.
And empire may well look different, ish, but not as different as looking Kislevite or anything, they’d have to be their own new thing..)
All in my opinion of course..
I think you hit the nail on the head here.
It's likely they'll start with armies they know people like and collect. It's less risky since, they don't know how well the new game will stick.
If it does do well, then obviously they can take the gamble of releasing more niche factions into the game.
lord_blackfang wrote: Hahaha people be talking about model ranges for human subfactions and I'm the crazy one for thinking it will be a different scale.
I mean I think you are crazy for thinking it will be a different scale.
But I’m putting anyone who suggests an army that isn’t one of the previous ones, in that same crazy camp.
Caveat: if this thing sells well and does great things, then after all the old armies are out, sure I could see them moving to something new, but it would be way down the line.
Also, I mean all the previous armies, that would be about in the setting they choose, obviously some they may skip over, and then could get to new lists quicker, but all the elves dwarfs empire chaos undead etc would all be first.
And empire may well look different, ish, but not as different as looking Kislevite or anything, they’d have to be their own new thing..)
All in my opinion of course..
I'd have thought so too, but I'm kind of expecting the unexpected from GW nowadays - or at least every now and then.
For Necromunda, they did first re-release the original House Gangs.. and then also made up some completely new things rather than revisiting old factions. And they made Squats. Two of them.
And indeed for AoS, they released fish elves well before something resembling high elves, while steampunk dwarves, the bonereapers and snake elves were prioritized over the new versions of dark elves and wood elves.
I don't think they will start with largely unseen factions.. but I certainly won't rule out seeing e.g. Kislev appear before the other 15ish factions are revisited.
As much as I would LOVE bear riding dudes and Winged Hussars going up against some chaos demons.. It is but a pipe dream. However you gotta have some sort of dream right?
Realisticaly I think we will see sort of tri faction, proto-empire humans ala greek city states with mercenary regiments sprinkled in type of hoistoricals take on the whole thing as a core.
It would be so different enough to AOS, warcry and OG WHFB but also tick "old" old world. And if theres a huge uptake and the game reaches the WHFB hayday proportions who knows? Expansions could well happen to include proto high-elves and pretty much any race. Its not like none of the other peoples of the old world were about at that time.
I will rule it out. A unit with kislevite flavor is more likely than a Kislevite faction. The group clamoring for that is a niche within a niche. This is about making money. So it will be the core factions. Much reduced to start, and then expanded slowly outwards.
lord_blackfang wrote: Hahaha people be talking about model ranges for human subfactions and I'm the crazy one for thinking it will be a different scale.
We will be the ones laughing when Warmaster: The Old World is eventually released
Dread Master wrote: I will rule it out. A unit with kislevite flavor is more likely than a Kislevite faction. The group clamoring for that is a niche within a niche. This is about making money. So it will be the core factions. Much reduced to start, and then expanded slowly outwards.
The best way to get this off the ground is to keep the same scale. You, me, Herbert and Spotty can then simply dust off old armies, and take to the field. GW get rulebook purchases out of that.
As time goes on, outdated sculpts (of which WHFB had many) get redone, and that's when we actually buy-in.
In the meantime for GW, the game is visibly played, which helps recruitment.
Yeah GW has no problem selling legions of space marine models and new editions have come out all the time. Heck I suspect it was only kirby era management that gave us primaris and that chances are they were originally just going to be the "next upgrade" design like they've done several times over the years.
Simple fact is anyone who has an army and isn't buying won't buy into a totally new game; however someone currently running an active, but older army, is more likely to steadily expand their army by buying new sculpts and replacing and updating. Espcially since Old World had a lot of really old plastics and metals so updates are a BIG jump.
We can argue about it till we're blue in the face, we'll have to wait and see. My money is on brand new sculpts, since a ton of pre-AoS lines are now retired and not in production, plus it removes the old problem of glut of used toys gutting new model sales.
The best way to get this off the ground is to keep the same scale. You, me, Herbert and Spotty can then simply dust off old armies, and take to the field. GW get rulebook purchases out of that.
As time goes on, outdated sculpts (of which WHFB had many) get redone, and that's when we actually buy-in.
In the meantime for GW, the game is visibly played, which helps recruitment.
All of the above could be said for the other specialist games but GW still went out of their way to make old models unusable. They don't care about anything but milking the most money for the least effort. You're going to get a boxed set with 2 factions across maybe 4 different sprues, and rules only for those two factions, with a tiny print run, and if those sell out there will be 1 new sprue every 3 months and you'll have to buy another book to use every new sprue.
AT was, from the outset, also an exercise in getting the Titans to the right scale, the originals having not actually had one.
Aeronautica? Scale of the craft doesn't matter, as it's all about the base. Those can be knocked up very simply. Use one from the new set, trace round onto cardboard, glue to bottom of existing craft. Sorted.
Quest, Kill Team, Blood Bowl, Warcry, Necromunda - same as it ever was.
Yeah of specialist games taht invalidated the old models only AT really stands out. Lets face it compare the old Warlord to a modern Warlord and its tiny - its down to scout or reaver titan size. We traded backward compatible models for bigger and far more detailed models that scaled based off the 40K game.
Dread Master wrote: I will rule it out. A unit with kislevite flavor is more likely than a Kislevite faction. The group clamoring for that is a niche within a niche. This is about making money. So it will be the core factions. Much reduced to start, and then expanded slowly outwards.
At least a made-to-order for the Kislev minis would be nice. Amazing sculpts
Aeronautica? Scale of the craft doesn't matter, as it's all about the base.
The same can be said about Warhammer.
To a degree, absolutely.
Indeed, it was only really convention that meant a unit of say, 30 Spearmen was typically made up of, 30 Spearmen. Theoretically, one would only need a unit perimeter of troops to show how many rank, how many file. The really bold and trusting could get away with just marking the corners.
But, the visuals is the thing. Less of a problem with Aeronautica, as even the original, dinkier models were really, really nice sculpts. All they've done now is make them the same scale as AT. Almost as if they're planning Epic at some point, and want to make sure similarly scaled models are already available.
Oh wait. They're deliberately changing the scales to nickle and dime us, so that can't be the reason?
Aeronautica? Scale of the craft doesn't matter, as it's all about the base.
The same can be said about Warhammer.
To a degree, absolutely.
Indeed, it was only really convention that meant a unit of say, 30 Spearmen was typically made up of, 30 Spearmen. Theoretically, one would only need a unit perimeter of troops to show how many rank, how many file. The really bold and trusting could get away with just marking the corners.
But, the visuals is the thing. Less of a problem with Aeronautica, as even the original, dinkier models were really, really nice sculpts. All they've done now is make them the same scale as AT. Almost as if they're planning Epic at some point, and want to make sure similarly scaled models are already available.
Oh wait. They're deliberately changing the scales to nickle and dime us, so that can't be the reason?
Visuals and "nickel and dime" us? that is what we call in the industry a Win/Win.
For those interested in a different scale, Warmaster has had a bit of a resurgence lately using Warmaster: Revolution rules.
And...? Scale creep has been a thing since GW has been a thing. Stick some 5th Ed Brets next to 6th Ed Brets and there's a definitive size difference. Marauders? Same. Does NOT invalidate them, especially if base sizes stay the same.
Aeronautica? Scale of the craft doesn't matter, as it's all about the base.
The same can be said about Warhammer.
To a degree, absolutely.
Indeed, it was only really convention that meant a unit of say, 30 Spearmen was typically made up of, 30 Spearmen. Theoretically, one would only need a unit perimeter of troops to show how many rank, how many file. The really bold and trusting could get away with just marking the corners.
But, the visuals is the thing. Less of a problem with Aeronautica, as even the original, dinkier models were really, really nice sculpts. All they've done now is make them the same scale as AT. Almost as if they're planning Epic at some point, and want to make sure similarly scaled models are already available.
Oh wait. They're deliberately changing the scales to nickle and dime us, so that can't be the reason?
Visuals and "nickel and dime" us? that is what we call in the industry a Win/Win.
For those interested in a different scale, Warmaster has had a bit of a resurgence lately using Warmaster: Revolution rules.
Then Warmaster: Revolution has the 17 people that actually played Warmaster covered.
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Cronch wrote:We can argue about it till we're blue in the face, we'll have to wait and see. My money is on brand new sculpts, since a ton of pre-AoS lines are now retired and not in production, plus it removes the old problem of glut of used toys gutting new model sales.
Have you TRIED to find old GW models on the secondary market? I'm looking constantly since I still play 6th, and even finding some on sale is hard enough without ridiculously overpriced BINs. It takes NO effort to pull those old mold plates out of storage and hammer out new molds. Proof of this? Revell knocking out older 40K models.
They also introduced new weapon options for Necromunda, right? I mean, do you see anyone playing Necromunda with their old gangs? I wouldn't expect to see anyone playing warhammer The Old World with their old fantasy miniatures. That would make it a completely waste of time for GW. They don't exist to sell rulebooks to people who aren't buying miniatures.
Albino Squirrel wrote: They also introduced new weapon options for Necromunda, right? I mean, do you see anyone playing Necromunda with their old gangs? I wouldn't expect to see anyone playing warhammer The Old World with their old fantasy miniatures. That would make it a completely waste of time for GW. They don't exist to sell rulebooks to people who aren't buying miniatures.
I would get really upset if I could not use my old Vampire Counts minis/armies. I would be glad to add some new minis but not to be able to use an army of approx 5k points would be a killing blow from GW for me.
Albino Squirrel wrote: They also introduced new weapon options for Necromunda, right? I mean, do you see anyone playing Necromunda with their old gangs? I wouldn't expect to see anyone playing warhammer The Old World with their old fantasy miniatures. That would make it a completely waste of time for GW. They don't exist to sell rulebooks to people who aren't buying miniatures.
I would get really upset if I could not use my old Vampire Counts minis/armies. I would be glad to add some new minis but not to be able to use an army of approx 5k points would be a killing blow from GW for me.
I’m with you there, though arguably the killing blow already happened when the Old World blew up the first time
We know The Old World is coming back. To those that played WHFB, that means Warhammer The Game of Fantasy Battles is returning. And in turn, means my long dormant Ogres will be glad I couldn’t be arsed to rebase them.
GW have two options.
Stick with what people know and love, and own lots for.
Or
Create a new scale.
Risks.
The former? Risk is inherent sales restriction. As someone with an existing and extensive army, I’m not likely to spend a huge amount to begin with. Rule book, Army Book or equivalent. Rinse and repeat across several thousand gamers, and initial takings will be relatively low.
The latter? Risk is those of us hankering to get square bashing again, irrespective of whether we also enjoy AoS feel a middle finger has just been shown to us. The army I was looking forward to dusting off and kicking ass with has no role. Instead, I now have to assemble a whole new army, from scratch. That’s expensive.
I know which risk I’d prefer to run. See, a game seen to be played attracts attention. And from attention comes new blood. From new blood comes sales. From those sales come new opponents for all, and a reason to rejig my army, or invest in a new one as and when.
Do GW want an instant player base, who in time will spend cash?
Or do GW want to risk further alienating the more disgruntled gamers who still won’t let AoS go, and others previously looking forward to a return to glory?
Albino Squirrel wrote: They also introduced new weapon options for Necromunda, right? I mean, do you see anyone playing Necromunda with their old gangs? I wouldn't expect to see anyone playing warhammer The Old World with their old fantasy miniatures. That would make it a completely waste of time for GW. They don't exist to sell rulebooks to people who aren't buying miniatures.
I would get really upset if I could not use my old Vampire Counts minis/armies. I would be glad to add some new minis but not to be able to use an army of approx 5k points would be a killing blow from GW for me.
I’m with you there, though arguably the killing blow already happened when the Old World blew up the first time
Do people really believe that GW will produce miniatures in the year 2022 matching the size of what they produced in 2002, or is this discussion just a way to fill the information void until we get some proper news in a year or so?
All I know is I want to use my three huge remaining Fantasy armies again (not that I can’t if I just use old editions or alternate games etc but that’s by the by).
I sold off several, but my Empire and VC in particular, I’d like to play square bases fresh gaming.
My Ogres I have been torn between rebasing for 4 years now. Mawtribes book finally comes which could be the one to do it, and then this, so now I’m back to waiting
Other than Adeptus Titanicus, provided the base size is appropriate, the size of the model (Aeronautica) doesn’t actually matter, or (Necromunda) is so slight that someone objecting is probably going to be an arse to play against anyway.
Plus, Necromunda? The old models are slightly smaller than the new ones. They’re also metal, not plastic. So they’re a massive pain in the nads to convert up with new weapons as the campaign progresses. And given WYSIWYGreally matters in Necromunda? That’s a drawback to being ever so slightly easier to hide against incredibly specific scenery. So it all balances out in the end.
And yes, I am strict on WYSIWYG in Necromunda. Proxy is ok for a game or two, whilst you gather resources. But if you start off with ‘a is actually q, except on this model, where it’s z. That model with z actually has m’ and other ballache, non-distinct nonsense.
I’ve limited resources to play with in a game, so when I aim to take someone down, I need to know, at a glance, that I’m making the right decision. And NO INVISIBLE WEAPONS. Ever. Just like, get a loose weapon and BluTak it to the base. As long as I can see it, that’s fine.
Albino Squirrel wrote: They also introduced new weapon options for Necromunda, right? I mean, do you see anyone playing Necromunda with their old gangs? I wouldn't expect to see anyone playing warhammer The Old World with their old fantasy miniatures. That would make it a completely waste of time for GW. They don't exist to sell rulebooks to people who aren't buying miniatures.
I would get really upset if I could not use my old Vampire Counts minis/armies. I would be glad to add some new minis but not to be able to use an army of approx 5k points would be a killing blow from GW for me.
I’m with you there, though arguably the killing blow already happened when the Old World blew up the first time
Yeah, unfortunately I think our are spot on
Right, they already did that. I mean, you could still kinda use your 5k point Vampire Counts army in Age of Sigmar. Anyone could kinda use most of their fantasy stuff in age of sigmar. But nobody does, because the game is focused on the new stuff and selling new models. I don't see any reason to believe this will be any different.
except LoN was one of the stronger armies for a long while, and a lot of the post-WHFB armies that transitioned into full Aos armies were much stronger than the new ones. Flesh Eaters blow stormcast out of the water in terms of sheer power, and they're all pre-Aos models.
If anything, it speaks to GW’s skill at marketing, and the appeal of really nice models.
Ogres are, well used, truly brutal in AoS. Everyone does multiple damage. Few don’t have an armour modifier. Battle shock can be brutal, but my opponent needs to lots of wounds to start killing stuff in the first place.
And they’ve had a single plastic replacement model since AoS launched.
But anyways. We’re in danger of tangent.
In short? Keeping WHFB the same scale, and playable with historical armies makes the most business sense.
If they're thinking with portals, GW should be aiming to get back to the circa 4th-6th period in terms of how people bought product - the cost/army size ratio was about right in terms of balancing barrier to entry against the spectacle of the game, and it was fairly commonplace for people to own multiple armies or have multiple themed lists within a single army.
Even if they do go full-Adeptus Titanicus with the initial release and do Empire vs Empire with loads of detailed Provincial rules and special subfaction units, there needs to be a modern Ravening Hordes style thing at launch so people can at least get in some appetiser games using their existing armies, and while I fully expect the models won't be an exact match in size & proportions for any of the previous ranges, we need to be talking WHFB Chaos Warriors vs AoS Chaos Warriors, rather than classic Delaque to new Delaque - replacing a gang with the newshiny models feels like an opportunity, replacing a whole army feels like a chore even ignoring the cost issue.
I mean, a big part of the audience GW is aiming to capture with TOW are people like myself who wouldn't even let GWblowing up the setting force us across to the newshiny, if they make radical changes to the model scale and the game isn't at least similar mechanically to WHFB, that part of the audience just refrain from buying the new stuff once again.
Albino Squirrel wrote: They also introduced new weapon options for Necromunda, right? I mean, do you see anyone playing Necromunda with their old gangs? I wouldn't expect to see anyone playing warhammer The Old World with their old fantasy miniatures. That would make it a completely waste of time for GW. They don't exist to sell rulebooks to people who aren't buying miniatures.
I would get really upset if I could not use my old Vampire Counts minis/armies. I would be glad to add some new minis but not to be able to use an army of approx 5k points would be a killing blow from GW for me.
I’m with you there, though arguably the killing blow already happened when the Old World blew up the first time
Yeah, unfortunately I think our are spot on
Right, they already did that. I mean, you could still kinda use your 5k point Vampire Counts army in Age of Sigmar. Anyone could kinda use most of their fantasy stuff in age of sigmar. But nobody does, because the game is focused on the new stuff and selling new models. I don't see any reason to believe this will be any different.
You're so right. Play Sigmar, where you have crap legacy rules that poke fun at your army OR didn't transition worth a damn in the 2nd Ed.
If we wanted to play Sigmar, we'd already be playing Sigmar and the point would be moot. The fact that GW itself is going back to TOW in an attempt to solicit money from people tells me (AND you, if you're paying attention and willing to listen) that enough people are flat out not playing AOS that there's money left on the table that will go elsewhere if GW doesn't do something about it. Since gamers street team worse than anyone short of Tesla owners (apparently) you have a poisoned well pretty fast.
lord_blackfang wrote:They don't care about anything but milking the most money for the least effort.
So how exactly is making dozens of new sculpts for 14+ factions the least effort, compared to mainly bringing existing sculpts back into production? Made-to-Order runs clearly show there is money in old stuff, which is hardly surprising given that they are basically free money for GW. As long as they sell a couple, they're already making a profit.
Overread wrote:Simple fact is anyone who has an army and isn't buying won't buy into a totally new game; however someone currently running an active, but older army, is more likely to steadily expand their army by buying new sculpts and replacing and updating. Espcially since Old World had a lot of really old plastics and metals so updates are a BIG jump.
Exactly. This entire endeavour is aimed at people who were into WHFB (new players have no reason to care yet, and still GW announces this 3 years in advance, promising regular updates over that time period). If you already had, say, a Bretonnia army, and they simply re-release the existing sculpts, would you already buy any of them? Probably a few, yes, to expand or complete your collection. If they make something new (be it a brand new unit, or updated sculpts for existing units), would you buy those? Well, yeah, probably, to expand your collection and provide some variation.
Now, what if they make the whole game completely incompatible with your existing collection, and it's still a game that requires many dozens of miniatures, would you buy any of those new ones? Nah. You'd say that GW can go #$%!@ itself, and continue playing Oldhammer/Middlehammer/9th Age/Kings of War/nothing, but simply stare lovingly at your glorious Bretonnians as they slowly gather yet more dust.
Even if old Necromunda miniatures were incompatible with the new rules (which they aren't), you'd have to purchase 1 box of plastics to get back into the game. Maybe a second box and some Forge World bits to expand. The total miniature costs would be around what a single unit will cost in Warhammer Fantasy (if indeed not less).
Even if you can use, and will only use, your existing collection of models for the game, GW will probably still sell you a rulebook, and army book, maybe some cards for magic items and spells, perhaps similar plastic spells and terrain as exist in AoS. If Necromunda is anything to go by, GW is very happy to just sell a lot of books, cards, and the occasional miniature...
His Master's Voice wrote:Do people really believe that GW will produce miniatures in the year 2022 matching the size of what they produced in 2002, or is this discussion just a way to fill the information void until we get some proper news in a year or so?
It's not about a slight bit of scale creep, the question is whether old models will be compatible with the new game.
GW did notice that their other specialist projects worked well, and no self-respecting corporation would leave a penny on the table, so they decided to tickle ex-players nostalgia for some extra bucks. Which means, to GW, model sales, not book sales.
So how exactly is making dozens of new sculpts for 14+ factions the least effort
Simple, they will not start with making new sculpts for 14+ factions. They will start with two factions (or one, if they do just make it about inter-imperial conflict) and see if that sells. If it sells poorly, they will quietly slow the release schedule down to a tiny trickle. If it sells well, they will expand further. With new sculpts, in GW's current style.
GW's current style has become a worse and worse of a fit for the Old World ever since the End Times, and using it will means the new game won't have a strong visual identity of its own, beyond square bases.
Changes in style are 100% intentional because GW wants us to buy new models instead of using existing collections. That being said, they can still produce Old World - fitting models if they want to. From recent releases, Squig Herders and Hoppers, Stone Trolls and Start Collecting Slaves to Darkness miniatures would look spot on in modern version of Old World.
Easiest way to sell lots of models is to make them look much better than their predecessors (that shouldn't be too hard given how bad WHFB looked in the end) and pack them in huge boxed sets. Personally I think that this is the approach that GW is going to take. Huge boxed set with two armies named after a famous battle, with few supplemental kits. If and when that sells like hotcakes, introduce another army with very limited options and market it as an expansion.
The key thing here is that you have one group who is ruling out ANYTHING that has to do with making this somehow fit with the previous editions of WFB, despite having NO evidence that THAT is the case. Those of us saying it will have teased evidence from GW, which works more in our favor than it does in any suggestion that this is going to be some weird AOS mod or Warmaster revival.
The Old World changed so much between 1st and 8th editions. When GW say they're going back to the Old World, when exactly do they mean?
For a lot of people, it's not just the rank and file rules and non-trademarkable names of WHFB that set it apart from AoS. It's also the art and lore of the edition they grew up with.
I started in 3rd edition with an Undead army. If we return to the Old World, it'll probably be the version after Undead was split into Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings. Already, I'm out. This Old World is not my Old World.
My Old World was a time before competitive balance was a consideration, before child-friendly designs and Orcs in power armour. GW won't go back to that time, so I just hope they make something new and interesting rather than a re-heated 6th edition to fight off Kings of War or whoever.
What I expect to see is what happened to necromunda.
Original necromunda had identical gangs. There were no unique troop types or weapons. They all used the same weapon and skill lists. Their starting stats where the same.
Only when they got skills did their individuality appear.
Now they are all very different with unique weapons stats and types from creation.
I expect what was once 'empire spearmen' to be 'reilkand spear guard's, middenland halberdier wolf beards etc.
They will all be slight reinventions of classic units justified as a 'deeper dive' into the 3 emperors period giving us an 'unprecedented look at the individual armies that make up each elector state'. The uniqueness and individuality will be sold as strengths and features.
And they will generate enthusiasm in new players because it will be something different while cashing in on nostalgia and also invalidating classic models so people will buy the new ones.
WaveyRaven wrote: The Old World changed so much between 1st and 8th editions. When GW say they're going back to the Old World, when exactly do they mean?
For a lot of people, it's not just the rank and file rules and non-trademarkable names of WHFB that set it apart from AoS. It's also the art and lore of the edition they grew up with.
I started in 3rd edition with an Undead army. If we return to the Old World, it'll probably be the version after Undead was split into Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings. Already, I'm out. This Old World is not my Old World.
My Old World was a time before competitive balance was a consideration, before child-friendly designs and Orcs in power armour. GW won't go back to that time, so I just hope they make something new and interesting rather than a re-heated 6th edition to fight off Kings of War or whoever.
I always felt the Lahmians should have been able to run a mix of Khemri and Vampire Counts. Would have kept a fluffy way to let the older players have their mixed army.
Wait, wasn't there a cairns list or something in 6th that still had mummies and the like?
At any rate, I'm not opposed to something new as long as it's intuitive and balanced. Interesting doesn't... heh... interest me, honestly, as it infers neither good nor bad and could easily be either. High damage volume stupidity and bufftastic Magic: the Warhammer type aura play would also send me right out.
WaveyRaven wrote: The Old World changed so much between 1st and 8th editions. When GW say they're going back to the Old World, when exactly do they mean?
For a lot of people, it's not just the rank and file rules and non-trademarkable names of WHFB that set it apart from AoS. It's also the art and lore of the edition they grew up with.
I started in 3rd edition with an Undead army. If we return to the Old World, it'll probably be the version after Undead was split into Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings. Already, I'm out. This Old World is not my Old World.
My Old World was a time before competitive balance was a consideration, before child-friendly designs and Orcs in power armour. GW won't go back to that time, so I just hope they make something new and interesting rather than a re-heated 6th edition to fight off Kings of War or whoever.
I always felt the Lahmians should have been able to run a mix of Khemri and Vampire Counts. Would have kept a fluffy way to let the older players have their mixed army.
Wait, wasn't there a cairns list or something in 6th that still had mummies and the like?
At any rate, I'm not opposed to something new as long as it's intuitive and balanced. Interesting doesn't... heh... interest me, honestly, as it infers neither good nor bad and could easily be either. High damage volume stupidity and bufftastic Magic: the Warhammer type aura play would also send me right out.
Vampire Armies often have the living, be they loyal to their vampire lords, in love with their Vampire mistress etc
Von Carsteins in particular should have a selection of Empire troops, especially in some eras. Some Tomb Kings units for lahmians and the old rule for "Swains" - Strigori living for Strigoir vamps etc, Monsters for Necrarchs etc
My prediction is...
Same scale as oldhammer, but new ranges of models across the board with unique rules, I suspect they'll allow you to use the old ranges but will do everything they can to phase these out and force you to buy new stuff. For example they'll have no pics of old models in any promotional material and rules will favour the new stuff.
But at this stage it's anybody's guess and although I'd be surprised and disappointed, I wouldn't entirely rule out a scale change.
This is all very good news. I was very tempted to start en empire army just before AoS hit. I loved the old world lore, but quite a few of the minature kits were aged. If they release the old world again with new and updated minis I'm all in. I really want updated minis, but minis that are clearly recognizable as belonging in the setting.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: It's not about a slight bit of scale creep, the question is whether old models will be compatible with the new game.
Of course they will, much the same way first edition Beakies are still valid Marine models.
Not if they design them with different weapons and armour, then they won't look compatible and will only work in a counts as capacity.
There is a limit to what they can do about that though.
The old Empire infantry came with swords, spears, pikes, Zweihanders, bows, crossbows or muskets. What other weapon options could they possibly give them that would still fit the setting?
Isn't AoS something like 5 years old - so in 3 years that's 8 years since the last time they sold any Old World stuff as Old World. That's probably more than a decade in terms of how old the models were (remembering many are still sold under AoS).
10 years is a long time and GW is at the forefront of casting. Even if they kept the weapons, unit types and poses the same, the designs, detail and features would be lightyears ahead of what they were.
Plus lets not forget GW isn't likely just going for the old market; but a fresh one. They clearly believe that there's value in the game beyond just delivering a product for those who already have 10K points of whatever army they love.
I think bending over backwards to envision a game in a different scale, with totally different armies, with totally different lore period set on square bases. GW could do all that, but honestly if they changed absolutely everything it would be foolish for them to market it as Old World. Same scale, same themes, similar armies, similar lore )if set earlier) etc... There's a wealth for them to choose from just sticking to the old concepts and ideas.
Again consider how many loyal old time fans still use only beakies for their spacemarines. Many might have them, but they still buy and update their army with modern sculpts and options. Wtih GW having made building and painting part of the hobby; even if you've got all the army you "need" there's still a lto of hobby in collecting models on top.
I don't think opening with Tilea vs Kislev and spending the next 10 years releasing humans with different hat feathers is any more likely than 10mm Lizardmen vs Bretonnians. For all this talk of bringing back the Old World and what it stood for there sure is a lot of sensless grognardism here.
If they use the opportunity to do a whole new range of 32mm Lizardmen for both systems, then great.
lord_blackfang wrote: I don't think opening with Tilea vs Kislev and spending the next 10 years releasing humans with different hat feathers is any more likely than 10mm Lizardmen vs Bretonnians. For all this talk of bringing back the Old World and what it stood for there sure is a lot of sensless grognardism here.
If they use the opportunity to do a whole new range of 32mm Lizardmen for both systems, then great.
Personally I reckon plain ol' dweeby, fragile and fleshy humaoids, in large and organised numbers will be what differentiates a re-incarnated Old World against the backdrop of Age of Sigmar and it's hordes of roided, muscles on michellin men, demi god gorillas.
A tabletop featuring some updated Brettonians facing off against Empire would look very different on the tabletop to anything in AoS right now and would be a great way for GW to show off their latest plastic swirly gak, you know the stuff... intricate banners, horse braiding, velvety hats with feathery bits juxtaposed against large, masonry throwing siege weaponry adorned with lots of skulls, just not a fortress of skulls amount of skulls. Maybe.
Tilea marches on Kislev - Kislev marches on Tilea - meeting in the middle, they duke it out inside the Empire, whose populace is screwed as usual
That being said, I seriously hope they make an effort of distinguishing Old World from AoS by keeping things on the Low Fantasy side of things. Greater Daemons, Dragons and Hill Giants should be the strict peak of big models.
I really can't imagine this being as big as some people are hoping. On one hand I'm betting we'll see rules to cover most of the old goodies, but I don't think we can assume that means everything immediately. Its easy to imagine they will hold back on anything they intend to release new models for. Specialist games' level of support of its other games is largely limited by their manufacturing capacity... but even if the new facility doubles Specialist Game's ability to produce plastics, you're looking at 6 to 12 new kits in the first year, and 4 to 8 each year after... the larger number assuming they double their capacity while still continuing to support their other specialist games. It might sound like a lot, but its amounts to revisiting one army a year for the better part of the next decade.
I guess on some level a saving grace is that some of the old models are still produced for AoS, but who knows what the state of any old tooling might be? -With as tight as GW has been on warehousing and manufacturing space its hard to imagine they'd preserve all of that old tooling. Lets also be honest, the hope of many is that certain factions and subfaction that didn't have support in the last edition of fantasy would get it now, but they're probably going to start by first supporting all the same big factions that already had lots of support. And just like GW has done in the past with fantasy, and still do with 40k, AoS, and Necromunda... support begets sales begets support, and they'll trap themselves in a cycle where their investor demand will be "those Empire models you lead with sold well do more rather than..." some faction that actually needs support.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Have they confirmed it's 28mm? Because my instincts tell me this will be 15mm or even the long-cancelled 6mm game. HOARDS of troops on the table.
What 6mm game? Don't think GW ever released 6mm fantasy themed game. Was there one rumoured/confirmed rumour but got nixed?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Have they confirmed it's 28mm? Because my instincts tell me this will be 15mm or even the long-cancelled 6mm game. HOARDS of troops on the table.
What 6mm game? Don't think GW ever released 6mm fantasy themed game. Was there one rumoured/confirmed rumour but got nixed?
Warmaster - it was out for a good long time but never really became big and then it vanished like most of the other specialist games. Though from what I recall it lasted loner than Epic 40K which I think lasted half a year or so before it up and died.
I can't see GW making it Warmaster. The whole 5-15mm model market is pretty much a dead duck for sci-fi/fantasy. It mostly seems to only hold on in a big way with historicals. Even then many of the companies are still one-man side-job bands. I'm not saying GW couldn't make it work, but its a niche of a specialist market. If they were to make another 6mm fantasy game I'd wager it would
1) Come AFTER a rebirth and successful sales of Epic - which considering AT hasn't even got any nonImperial models yet likely means its years and years off
2) Be for their main product line - so Age of Sigmar - which actually would work really well and better than warmaster because GW has already set the ground works for there being titan sized monsters and beasties and giants in the setting. So a Warmaster scale would let you fight out not just the opposing army but huge titans and godbeasts.
Warmaster wasn't 6mm. It was 10mm. And who knows. It could be a rebirth of warmaster. If it was I'd be 1000% down and in for that, which means that the odds are its most definitely not that lmao since anything I'd really love GW tends to go the exact opposite way.
My gut feeling is that it'll be AOS scale, it will be able to cross genres for sales, and its ruleset will be modern design streamline and super board gamey abstract only with ranks and files with wizards summoning massive amount of free points onto the table and mortal wounds still existing that you want to spam as many of.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Have they confirmed it's 28mm? Because my instincts tell me this will be 15mm or even the long-cancelled 6mm game. HOARDS of troops on the table.
What 6mm game? Don't think GW ever released 6mm fantasy themed game. Was there one rumoured/confirmed rumour but got nixed?
Warmaster - it was out for a good long time but never really became big and then it vanished like most of the other specialist games. Though from what I recall it lasted loner than Epic 40K which I think lasted half a year or so before it up and died.
Ah. That was double scale. More about 12mm. Players were mighty pissed off when all the 10mm fantasy models were noticably smaller than WM models.
The names of the Emperors and Empress don't seem to fit any of the known eras characters? Do any of them match anyone in Total War: Warhammer 11 as i only have the first one?
I am assuming it will be prior to the End Times but they could do the Storm of Chaos ending and a whole new age?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Have they confirmed it's 28mm? Because my instincts tell me this will be 15mm or even the long-cancelled 6mm game. HOARDS of troops on the table.
What 6mm game? Don't think GW ever released 6mm fantasy themed game. Was there one rumoured/confirmed rumour but got nixed?
Yeah in the early 90s they mentioned several times they were doing an Epic Fantasy game ~6mm. When Warmaster came out they said they'd experimented with 6mm but even dragons were too tiny to look impressive so they upsized to 10mm or whatever WM was.
One new unit that’s in the early stages of development is set in the Ice Court – the seat of the ruling Tsar or Tsarina. Known as the Ice Guard, they’re an elite fighting formation of warrior women, equally skilled with bow and blade. But where they differ significantly from the other Kislevite units we’ve seen in the past is that they’re able to channel the elemental magic of their realm in a similar manner to their Ice Queen – the most powerful practitioner of this unique form of sorcery. Here are some awesome pieces of concept art for the Ice Guard, courtesy of Forge World’s Mark Bedford.
lord_blackfang wrote: Ho boy. So it's really happening. Empire civil war. Human subfactions with different hat feathers that will only sell to 7 hypergrognards.
lord_blackfang wrote: Ho boy. So it's really happening. Empire civil war. Human subfactions with different hat feathers that will only sell to 7 hypergrognards.
Let it go
Let it go
Turn away and slam the door....
If they didn't tell me those are supposed to be Kislev designs, I'd assume they're meant for AoS. And I would be able to tell if the faction is human or elf either.
Don't get me wrong, I like AoS, but the cover for the recent Cities of Sigmar battletome looked more Old World than this.
In this instance, it's also a unit that we never saw before. Kislev never really got a huge amount of exploration despite the prevalence it played with the Empire and Chaos lore.
With that said? The scalemail seems to be drawing upon the design that the Winged Lancers had. Without the weapon designs for context, I can understand the issue.
lord_blackfang wrote: Ho boy. So it's really happening. Empire civil war. Human subfactions with different hat feathers that will only sell to 7 hypergrognards.
Let it go
Let it go
Turn away and slam the door....
That lines up with some hopes and partially with expectations expressed earllier in the thread!
But...
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I wonder how long it takes for the moaning to start about the bows being unrealistic and the arrows having ice heads? (both i really like by the way)
Honestly, yeah, kind of. I like the humans to by and large be ordinary humans equipped with ordinary weapons. Magic and magical weapons are rare. An entire unit equipped with with all kinds of magical ice weaponry is already too much for me. Old Kislev was great because they were some of the staunchest hardiest folks around, resolute despite the constant threat of Chaos invasions. That becomes rather less impressive if entire units can be outfitted with amazing ice magic gear. With AoS being an outlet for the more outlandish magicy things, I had hoped the returning Old World would have the more toned down style.
They also had two iconic cavalry units in their Ungol Horse Archers and Kislevite Winged Lancers.
Do this right, and they can do some Total Warhammer 3 crossover and launch the Kislev faction off the back of some tasty, tasty cross promotion.
---
I do hope people remember that the Kislev 'Ice Tsarina' and Lore of Ice Magic predates Frozen by a decade or more.
I'd expect 'but Frozen did it first' from people unfamiliar with the game, but it sounds like 'Warhammer is just copying Warcraft' complaints from people who should be familiar with the setting.
One new unit that’s in the early stages of development is set in the Ice Court – the seat of the ruling Tsar or Tsarina. Known as the Ice Guard, they’re an elite fighting formation of warrior women, equally skilled with bow and blade. But where they differ significantly from the other Kislevite units we’ve seen in the past is that they’re able to channel the elemental magic of their realm in a similar manner to their Ice Queen – the most powerful practitioner of this unique form of sorcery. Here are some awesome pieces of concept art for the Ice Guard, courtesy of Forge World’s Mark Bedford.
The Ice Guard are, effectively, a Kislevite version of the Sisters of Avelorn concept that we had for the High Elves and Alarielle. They're a whole new unit that does not change the rest of the Kislevite lore.
lord_blackfang wrote: Ho boy. So it's really happening. Empire civil war. Human subfactions with different hat feathers that will only sell to 7 hypergrognards.
Let it go
Let it go
Turn away and slam the door....
I was just thinking someone must've watched Frozen II six times...
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I wonder how long it takes for the moaning to start about the bows being unrealistic and the arrows having ice heads? (both i really like by the way)
Differing opinion haver...sorry, "moaner" reporting in
For real though, impressive - complaining about even the idea of complaints potentially happening in the future, an exciting new development in the field of White Knightery. Perhaps with a programme of serious R&D we might reach the stage of complaining about the very concept of complaining and so observe the first Hypocrisy Singularity forming.
Snark aside, it's hard to draw much of a conclusion from such small snippets of info, but interpreted uncharitably it could be considered a bit concerning for those hoping TOW would be a return to a slightly more...restrained(as much as a world like Warhammer can be anyway) version of the IP. The feel coming off those concepts is very 8th Edition-y with that era's ultra-high-magic approach to things, and I was very much hoping for a more 6th Edition-y tone. It rather depends whether they're showing these along with the classic models in order to imply the new concept is a special rare thing that's being *added*, or in order to contrast the "boring" old models with the Super Dope Ice Quweeeeen Badass Ladies with the intent the latter style will come to define the faction. So yeah, it doesn't really tell us much beyond the specific concept, which is...fine? Like I say, a bit "8th-y" in terms of the design but there's nothing about the basic idea that's hideously out of place - I'd have been a lot more confident about the direction TOW is going in if our first look was at the new version of one of those classic Kislev units.
Kanluwen wrote: Take a moment to read the accompanying piece:
One new unit that’s in the early stages of development is set in the Ice Court – the seat of the ruling Tsar or Tsarina. Known as the Ice Guard, they’re an elite fighting formation of warrior women, equally skilled with bow and blade. But where they differ significantly from the other Kislevite units we’ve seen in the past is that they’re able to channel the elemental magic of their realm in a similar manner to their Ice Queen – the most powerful practitioner of this unique form of sorcery. Here are some awesome pieces of concept art for the Ice Guard, courtesy of Forge World’s Mark Bedford.
The Ice Guard are, effectively, a Kislevite version of the Sisters of Avelorn concept that we had for the High Elves and Alarielle. They're a whole new unit that does not change the rest of the Kislevite lore.
Addition is absolutely a form of change. When you add a new ingredient to the stew the flavour of the whole thing changes, whether for good or ill.
Same, I’m hoping for earlier renditions with less massive models and a more subdued bleak feeling of earlier editions. For example, a scenario I’d say is a classic of WHFB is the undead horde raiding a village with ragtag defenders scraped together to repel them. If they can do something that does that justice without needing to wheel out the war altar or steam tank to deal with 100 skeletons then I’ll be pleased...
Kanluwen wrote: In this instance, it's also a unit that we never saw before. Kislev never really got a huge amount of exploration despite the prevalence it played with the Empire and Chaos lore.
The Warmaster, Mordheim and 6th ed WHFB lists are fairly limited, but there is a full armylist spread over 3 Citadel Journals (14-16) from the mid nineties, written by Tuomas Pirinen. Included some suggested conversions for the models; not even some of the later metals were of course released at this date. No idea how official that makes it, but I've always taken it as canon unless in conflict with later publications.
Kanluwen wrote: That feels like misconstruing an old WHFB Skirmish scenario with the whole of WHFB.
The point I failed to make is I hope they bring some of the emphasis that 6th placed on the poor bloody infantry and less on massive monsters or war machines. As said, Teclis shouldn’t be rocking up to deal with a bunch of dark elf pirates, etc
Though I did enjoy the hero hammer 4th/5th editions...
Kanluwen wrote: That feels like misconstruing an old WHFB Skirmish scenario with the whole of WHFB.
The point is that WHF used to pitch its tone so that those kinds of "WHFB Skirmish scenarios" was the majority of the conflict that took place in the setting, and the huge world-shaking megaconflicts were occasional events that had occurred in the past and were being built up to happen again in an indeterminate future of the players' own choosing. Some of us were kind of hoping that TOW would see a return to that tone given AoS now has the ultra-high-magic-catastrofantasy niche pretty well covered.
Kanluwen wrote: That feels like misconstruing an old WHFB Skirmish scenario with the whole of WHFB.
The point I failed to make is I hope they bring some of the emphasis that 6th placed on the poor bloody infantry and less on massive monsters or war machines. As said, Teclis shouldn’t be rocking up to deal with a bunch of dark elf pirates, etc
By that same vein, the point that I was replying to was more the idea of "ragtag defenders" or "the undead horde raiding a village".
That kind of thing wasn't exactly the norm any more than "Teclis showing up to deal with a bunch of dark elf pirates". At least with Teclis, you have the reasonable explanation of "he saw it coming with magic" and "dark elf pirates liked to go after the Tower of Hoeth".
We never really had "undead hordes raiding a village" except in those kinds of Skirmish scenarios, where the intention was to pit a small force of something like Ghouls versus Empire Militia and/or State Troops with rules in play for recycling the Ghouls.
Not a fan of those ice weapons, but the unit itself isn't too bad.
Still, I would've hoped for some new mounted archers or winged lancers instead, you know, the iconic Kislevite units. Looking forward for more snippets.
lord_blackfang wrote: Ho boy. So it's really happening. Empire civil war. Human subfactions with different hat feathers that will only sell to 7 hypergrognards.
Yeah, I'm sure the appeal is limited exclusively to people who used to play WHFB and do not play AoS. NO ONE will buy them for use in AoS, KoW, Conquest, Frostgrave, or any other game. And not a single current AoS player will be interested in playing both games. Truly, this will be an incredibly niche release, even more than Horus Heresy, which was so unpopular it became the majority of FW releases. *eyeroll*
That would be 3rd Edition to 6th edition, and it was awesome.
I too hope for the Old World in all its bleak, normal glory. The old world of Geheimnisnacht, before Gotrek was a terrifying, end of the world surviving monster. Goblins and peasants stabbing each other in the mud with crude spears while the corrupt nobles pretend that they're fighting for the Empire and that half of them aren't secretly in a Slanneshi cult.
The world which Mordheim fitted into perfectly. Where magic existed, but was rare and MASSIVELY distrusted.
Where the average person would... live an average person life. Cutting down trees (that weren't likely to be some mad thing, just trees), baking bread, running their merchant business.
A world with superstitions just like ours, except that lots of those superstitions are really real and might just come howling out of the forest one day to eat you. If you're walking through the woods and suddenly everything starts looking like an Ian Miller painting, you've gone too far and you're in trouble.
But you probably won't meet any of this stuff unless you're actually a soldier. A fairly normal civilisation in a world with a lot of conflict.
Thoughts based upon a whole two images, which will likely be utterly invalidated by everything GW do afterwards, as the comments on the first map have already proven, but what the hell
Kislev - wow that's out of left field, a faction that barely saw any GW love aside from one minor spurt in 6th edition. This is a sign that the game will be broader in scope than the original image suggested, if they're already doing such minor factions.
Think we can pretty much expect Kislev to be one of the base factions in TW3 now - not that it's much of a surprise given what's left, no Cathay is not happening. There's some great synergies there, potentially saves both GW and CA money in doing all the design work for the faction, bulks out the limited faction list for CA and will help GW move people over from the video game if they can play the latest human faction on the tabletop early in TOW's lifecycle.
Apparently these women are an elite unit, it's not surprising they look a bit more magical and stylised, elite units need something to differentiate themselves from the rank and file. If the grunt Kislev troops look like this, then start worrying if you're a low fantasy guy.
Seems like they're leaning hard into the 'Snow Queen' aspect of Kislev, which I'm all for, so long as it's interspersed with the trademark Warhammer Fantasy grimdarkness and cynicism. These guys are on the front line of fighting against Norsca and Chaos, even more so than the Empire. They need to be dark and gritty and morally ambigious, not shiny snow people.
All the grognards still suggesting that this game will be a small scale large numbers game, like the commercial failure Warmaster, I highly doubt they'd be doing such detailed weapon drawings for such a game.
Graphite wrote: That would be 3rd Edition to 6th edition, and it was awesome.
I too hope for the Old World in all its bleak, normal glory. The old world of Geheimnisnacht, before Gotrek was a terrifying, end of the world surviving monster. Goblins and peasants stabbing each other in the mud with crude spears while the corrupt nobles pretend that they're fighting for the Empire and that half of them aren't secretly in a Slanneshi cult.
Gotrek was terrifying even then and that bit about "corrupt nobles" is just silly fanwank at best.
The world which Mordheim fitted into perfectly. Where magic existed, but was rare and MASSIVELY distrusted.
Maybe if you lived in the Empire where Witch Hunters and religious zealots shouted about magic being awful all the time. Bretonnia and the Elves were a totally different situation.
Where the average person would... live an average person life. Cutting down trees (that weren't likely to be some mad thing, just trees)
Athel Loren and the Asrai say "hi".
baking bread, running their merchant business.
A world with superstitions just like ours, except that lots of those superstitions are really real and might just come howling out of the forest one day to eat you. If you're walking through the woods and suddenly everything starts looking like an Ian Miller painting, you've gone too far and you're in trouble.
But you probably won't meet any of this stuff unless you're actually a soldier. A fairly normal civilisation in a world with a lot of conflict.
Most of what you're talking about had nothing to do with 3rd to 6th edition. It was lore stuff. Stuff that exists in AoS as well. You just actually have to read about it rather than relying on 1d4chan or thirdhand accounts from people with an axe to grind over the setting.
Hmm...
A Forgeworld guy is doing the art. I hope it's plastic models, with occasionally heroes from FW, like Necromunda. But more plastic models than Necromunda.
GaroRobe wrote: Hmm...
A Forgeworld guy is doing the art. I hope it's plastic models, with occasionally heroes from FW, like Necromunda. But more plastic models than Necromunda.
Forge World are doing the whole thing. There may be plastic releases, but I wouldn’t expect more than Necromunda unless things change before it comes out.
GaroRobe wrote: Hmm...
A Forgeworld guy is doing the art. I hope it's plastic models, with occasionally heroes from FW, like Necromunda. But more plastic models than Necromunda.
Necromunda is 100% the FW/Specialist Games department, including all their plastic models. As is Adeptus Titanicus. As is the plane-game. As is Blood Bowl. Etc..
Ironically, many of the pricy, giant resin lumps for 40K sold on the FW website aren't, as "GW main" has taken to writing rules for those.
Lord Damocles wrote: Kislev dudes (and dudettes) with stahlrim weapons and ice magic sounds like the Old World is getting Age-of-Sigmarified.
Not really. It’s one elite unit who fights in a similar way to the Ice Queen, who uses magic anyway. Not a lot to go on, and makes sense to me that they’d be a bit more magical.
To be honest, I'm confused. So, this unit was always there, even before Katarina came to power ? Or is it her personnal guard ? The fact that the article is talking about their similarity to channel ice magic like the Ice Queen seems to say they're more close to the setting just before the End Times.
And yeah, it's clearly more "high fantasy" than the Old World of old times. If it was an elf unit, it doesn't bother me, since they were always more familiar with magic. But we're talking about humans in the Old World, and we know the setting there wasn't exactly "magic friendly", even in 8th edition. We don't need 4chan to know that, just read the regular old lore.
GaroRobe wrote: Hmm...
A Forgeworld guy is doing the art. I hope it's plastic models, with occasionally heroes from FW, like Necromunda. But more plastic models than Necromunda.
'Forgeworld' doesn't have the same meaning it used to.
Everything 40K and AoS is under the main studio now, while 'FW' is basically HH, Specialist Games and Middle-Earth, and this.
Its public knowledge, but GW never really made a big deal about it. The interview with Hewitt mentions the reorganization.
Old World was partly low fantasy because way back when it started you couldn't make huge dragons and steamships and phoenix with riders cause the ywere all somewhat big. Heck that's why all their dragons were very serpentine and stick-thin - because they were all cast from metal.
Plastic makes a lot more things possible.
Heck anyone who has read the Gotrek tails the Chaos forces attacking one of the Kislev cities had rolling living demonic siege engines.
Higher fantasy stuff was there it was just rarer than AoS has it. Heck don't forget High Elves had a sky chariot pulled by eagles; were flying on phoenix and had mages balanced on rocks.
The Kislev queen certainly had magical powers of ice. It was oft referenced and, again, appears in the Gotrek stories from that era. The Old World had magic, it had powerful magics; just that they were rarer. However they will appear more in the tabletop game because that's what it always focused on.
Also GW/FW won't do a model heavy rank and file game in resin at 25-35mm scale. It would be nuts. If its going to be square bases on movement trays then we sort of already know it will be plastic. Just like Adepticus Titanicus; Aeronautica and Necromunda. With a few heroes/uniques in resin .
Graphite wrote: That would be 3rd Edition to 6th edition, and it was awesome.
I too hope for the Old World in all its bleak, normal glory. The old world of Geheimnisnacht, before Gotrek was a terrifying, end of the world surviving monster. Goblins and peasants stabbing each other in the mud with crude spears while the corrupt nobles pretend that they're fighting for the Empire and that half of them aren't secretly in a Slanneshi cult.
Gotrek was terrifying even then and that bit about "corrupt nobles" is just silly fanwank at best.
Oh, come on. When Bill King wrote Geheimnisnacht his original plan was that Gotrek was going to die, but he liked him and Felix so let him survive. He was Just A Dwarf Slayer. An insight into how weird Dwarf culture as a whole was.
And read Beasts in Velvet or anything else "Jack Yeovil" put out. It's very apparent that the ruling class of the Empire is corrupt as all get out - not necessarily to Chaos, but to the perfectly normal human traits of greed and not giving a monkeys about the lower classes. Alright, half of them being cultists is admittedly hyperbolic, but you could never be entirely sure that it wasn't true. And Bretonia was at least as bad - outside of the Knights the entire country was regarded as fairly backward.
The world which Mordheim fitted into perfectly. Where magic existed, but was rare and MASSIVELY distrusted.
Maybe if you lived in the Empire where Witch Hunters and religious zealots shouted about magic being awful all the time. Bretonnia and the Elves were a totally different situation.
Granted with the Elves. Horrid, pointy eared.... But your average Bretonian peasant is going to have seen the same number of Magic Swords of Magicness as he will have seen spaceships (The Star Boat by Steve Baxter says hi!). And he's not going to trust it. Just because it's legal, which in the case of Bretonnia means that "The very wealthy knights who think they're noble and literally own you like having some magic about" doesn't mean you like it.
Where the average person would... live an average person life. Cutting down trees (that weren't likely to be some mad thing, just trees)
Athel Loren and the Asrai say "hi".
If the average woodcutter rocks up to Athel Loren with an axe and a speculative look in his eye, he deserves all he gets. Someone going to the Drakwald forest to get a bit of wood on the other hand should expect that the most dangerous thing that he's likely to face is accidentally hitting himself with an axe, rather than every other tree trying to bite him.
Graphite wrote: baking bread, running their merchant business.
A world with superstitions just like ours, except that lots of those superstitions are really real and might just come howling out of the forest one day to eat you. If you're walking through the woods and suddenly everything starts looking like an Ian Miller painting, you've gone too far and you're in trouble.
But you probably won't meet any of this stuff unless you're actually a soldier. A fairly normal civilisation in a world with a lot of conflict.
Most of what you're talking about had nothing to do with 3rd to 6th edition. It was lore stuff. Stuff that exists in AoS as well. You just actually have to read about it rather than relying on 1d4chan or thirdhand accounts from people with an axe to grind over the setting.
Well, the main thing it has to do with 3rd and 6th edition was that they both happened at around the same time. But for all that they're now fleshing out "normal life" in AoS, and that's a good thing, the majority of the Realms ACTUALLY FELL TO CHAOS. There's magic stuff EVERYWHERE. It isn't a setting where you could have characters who don't believe that this Fantastical Mad Stuff will affect them. Because it does, constantly.
(I don't get this stuff off 1d4Chan. I get it off Stormcast. This is the line of thinking I'm picking up from GW themselves)
lord_blackfang wrote: Ho boy. So it's really happening. Empire civil war. Human subfactions with different hat feathers that will only sell to 7 hypergrognards.
Yeah, I'm sure the appeal is limited exclusively to people who used to play WHFB and do not play AoS. NO ONE will buy them for use in AoS, KoW, Conquest, Frostgrave, or any other game. And not a single current AoS player will be interested in playing both games. Truly, this will be an incredibly niche release, even more than Horus Heresy, which was so unpopular it became the majority of FW releases. *eyeroll*
A box of humans infighting, with follow up releases at the tempo of Necromunda or AT, is not enough to retake the crown of the premier rank and file fantasy game, not even with accounting for GW battered wife syndrome.
Being as its years away, they could make the next Warhammer Quest game based on The Old World to kick things off and to put a spin on things, have the bad guys as the explorers, for a change. Bit like Arthus in Warcraft 3 searching for Frostmorne or Thanos in Avengers trying to collect the powers of wind, fire, water, earth and heart.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: The detail on those imply it'll be a 28mm game and not 15mm Warmaster or whatever.
There's some amazing 15mm stuff out there. CAD sculpting pretty much nullified the scale-limits. But also yes, i don't believe it'll be 15mm.
As to magic, Kislev wasn't really well detailed, but it was implied in what little fluff there was that it was good deal closer to "old magic" than Empire. It's not shocking to have an elite unit drawing from the Tzarina's lore.
Do this right, and they can do some Total Warhammer 3 crossover and launch the Kislev faction off the back of some tasty, tasty cross promotion.
---
I do hope people remember that the Kislev 'Ice Tsarina' and Lore of Ice Magic predates Frozen by a decade or more.
I'd expect 'but Frozen did it first' from people unfamiliar with the game, but it sounds like 'Warhammer is just copying Warcraft' complaints from people who should be familiar with the setting.
Neither did it first.
I'm more interested in this now that Kislev is involved.
Weapon concepts definitely look more Warcraft than Warhammer.
But hey. Concept is a concept, therefore not the final product. Heck, at the risk of bringing everyone down, it’s possible this unit never sees the light of day at this very early stage.
Hah! I like to imagine that the person who pitched Kislev at the office or indeed, whomever green lit the project, has children that are really into that Disney film... whereupon being forced to sit through it during 'family time' for the umpteenth wet and miserable Sunday afternoon lead their mind to wander into how to turn the whole thing into Warhammer.
Either way, I'm not complaining. Kislev, yes please! Bring it on! I can't wait to see where GW go with this! It's already looking pretty fine, weaponry looks very Blizzard, not a problem for myself yet the concept for the ladies looks pretty great so far.
Hope the Bear Cavalry looks better than Thunderwolves, though. Please!
so icy mc ice warriors wolfy wolfs WHFB edition ... Just great.... Just... great.... Why cant they leave all the juiced to the gills magical stuff to AOS...
I think this will be more of a restrained (Ha!) WFB version of things, not the 'Dial It Up To 11' AoS style of stuff.
A whole unit of human warriors channeling magic to create ice-encrusted mystical weapons is a pretty high number on the dial. If you presented these to an Everyday Gamer type who doesn't follow all the online stuff and told them it was a new AoS unit, I'd wager the vast majority would think that entirely plausible.
The more restrained WHFB version of the concept would push their aesthetic a bit more towards Kievan Rus palace guards or the like and give them weapons that looked fairly normal(ie, like ornate but otherwise mundane swords, bows etc) and depict any icy enchantments with a light frosty paint effect or something along those lines.
At best, assuming they make it through to production looking like those concepts, they'll be Kislev's "8th Ed-style" OTT unit like Demigryph Knights or the Skycutter & Sparklepheonixes and the rest of the army will retain the classic style where a fat dude riding a bear was the most outlandish thing on the table.
Notice: the weapon tips/blades are not actually made of ice
There's just a layer of ice around them. Didn't hear anyone complaining about wizards that could provide a flame enchantment to weapons before or Empire fire-mages running around all the time with their swords and staves ablaze, but now it's over the top?
Can I get some clarity on when exactly WHFB (the "old world") was gritty fantasy? It seems like a bizarre opinion that could only be possible with cherry-picking in any edition
Overread wrote: Old World was partly low fantasy because way back when it started you couldn't make huge dragons and steamships and phoenix with riders cause the ywere all somewhat big. Heck that's why all their dragons were very serpentine and stick-thin - because they were all cast from metal.
Plastic makes a lot more things possible.
Heck anyone who has read the Gotrek tails the Chaos forces attacking one of the Kislev cities had rolling living demonic siege engines.
Higher fantasy stuff was there it was just rarer than AoS has it. Heck don't forget High Elves had a sky chariot pulled by eagles; were flying on phoenix and had mages balanced on rocks.
The Kislev queen certainly had magical powers of ice. It was oft referenced and, again, appears in the Gotrek stories from that era. The Old World had magic, it had powerful magics; just that they were rarer. However they will appear more in the tabletop game because that's what it always focused on.
Also GW/FW won't do a model heavy rank and file game in resin at 25-35mm scale. It would be nuts. If its going to be square bases on movement trays then we sort of already know it will be plastic. Just like Adepticus Titanicus; Aeronautica and Necromunda. With a few heroes/uniques in resin .
Not even counting the ship battle game that had flying magical tzeentch fortresses as ships and gigantic floating cities for dark elves. That also had Dragons on Elven ships.. Oh and the dwarven submarines and Greenskin ships with full on grabby mechanics! People who say this has been a low fantasy setting is just cherry picking.
I can see the argument that WHFB was low fantasy - although clearly not all the time.
The fluff was typically rooted in a place - i.e. the old world and friends. You had characters doing things for human reasons in places that were broadly comprehensible. So you can quibble over aspects of Dwarf, Goblin and Skaven society - but its not unreasonable that they have been fighting over Karak Eight Peaks forever. It wasn't *purely* because the dwarfs were after magic god-blood beans, the skaven were evil yes yes and the goblins had felt the call of the bad moon.
It was more these people are warlords, they want to defend or conquer territory. Rather than magical mumbo jumble one of the gods wills it, none of these realms have any especial meaning which you find in AoS.
But then I find some of the arguments in the thread just weird. I can appreciate you want to dig out those thousands of points of WHFB models you got 20+ years ago, but from GW's perspective there is very little reason to do that. They want to sell new stuff - not just a couple of rule books.
Maybe unpopular but I could see a human based game, where the bulk of units are the same, but you get faction bonuses and specific units, and then maybe moving into other non-human factions if its popular being interesting. It doesn't seem to make much sense running it alongside AoS otherwise. Also wouldn't obviously explain why they'd need to wait years if its just essentially 9th edition WHFB.
eohall wrote: Can I get some clarity on when exactly WHFB (the "old world") was gritty fantasy? It seems like a bizarre opinion that could only be possible with cherry-picking in any edition
It's not, lol.
Original early 80s-GW made random miniatures for all the classic super-high-fantasy stuff like LoTR and D&D, etc..
Than they made a little tabletopgame that could make use of all those miniatures (hence why the super-super-old Greater Daemon of Khorne looked like a Balrog, etc..) and kept adding more spells and vampires and Lizardmen and all kinds of super-high-fantasy tropes on top of the standard markers of high fantasy like Elves and Dwarves for over 3 decades, before they pulled End Times.
lord_blackfang wrote: Ho boy. So it's really happening. Empire civil war. Human subfactions with different hat feathers that will only sell to 7 hypergrognards.
Yeah, I'm sure the appeal is limited exclusively to people who used to play WHFB and do not play AoS. NO ONE will buy them for use in AoS, KoW, Conquest, Frostgrave, or any other game. And not a single current AoS player will be interested in playing both games. Truly, this will be an incredibly niche release, even more than Horus Heresy, which was so unpopular it became the majority of FW releases. *eyeroll*
A box of humans infighting, with follow up releases at the tempo of Necromunda or AT, is not enough to retake the crown of the premier rank and file fantasy game, not even with accounting for GW battered wife syndrome.
Apparently I'm super niche then. I'm personally thrilled that we will be getting new Empire models (which who knows....may even have AoS rules for Freeguild) that I can use to kitbash for Mordheim and AoS....as I'm sure others are, and all the Inq28 folks will be super excited as well.
HIgh fantasy elements such as flaming swords were always part of Warhammer. I don't think flaming bows look goods, but it's not an unreasonable step, and neither is ice-coated magic weapons for characters, and at a stretch even elite guard units. Even human ones.
The shift away from styles grounded in historical garb and weaponry is another matter: The Kislevite concept sketches are fine, but lack the grounded-in-history look of all Warhammer humans bar Chaos worshippers. They do not draw on historical Russian and Polish styles as much as they would have done during, say, 6th edition.
Things like World of Warcraft has certainly had an impact. This trend started back in 7th editions, with the diminishing influence of the Perry brothers (who worked on Lotr instead).
(This is not a complaint, just an impassionate observation.)
Do this right, and they can do some Total Warhammer 3 crossover and launch the Kislev faction off the back of some tasty, tasty cross promotion.
---
I do hope people remember that the Kislev 'Ice Tsarina' and Lore of Ice Magic predates Frozen by a decade or more.
I'd expect 'but Frozen did it first' from people unfamiliar with the game, but it sounds like 'Warhammer is just copying Warcraft' complaints from people who should be familiar with the setting.
Neither did it first.
Well, obviously. Just trying to nip some of the immediate kneejerk reactions in the bud.
I mean, it's sensible they don't look the same as 6th ed. 6th ed had much different style to 5th ed, and 8th ed had different look to all previous. People with nostalgia goggles tend to view their "honeymoon" edition as the One True Warhammer, but the game always changed in look and even how grimdark it was. Remember those cutesy cartoon pictures in 5th ed rulebook? Was it any less Warhamer to the po-faced woodcut style of 6th ed?
Norse Dwarfs... that would definitely get me interested.. proper Norse Dwarfs.. haven'y been touched by GW in a long time and would give a different look for dwarf collectors without treading on the oldworld dwarf collections..
You’ve heard of recurve bow? Here is tricurve bow. Is better. Is 50% more curve. Horn and sinew is good for bow; better is horn, sinew, and magic bear snot. Bow is shoot the arrow good.
"Ice magic" is different from "whole unit that creates/enhance their weapons with flashy magic".
Kanluwen wrote: Didn't hear anyone complaining about wizards that could provide a flame enchantment to weapons before or Empire fire-mages running around all the time with their swords and staves ablaze, but now it's over the top?
Wizards are characters, very specific individuals that mastered magic.
Elite warrior unit isn't a character.
I mean, ASoIaF isn't very high fantasy (they do have some magic and dragons but it's not the meat of the series), and even they have flaming swords. "Fake" ones at first, and real ones later.
Can anyone name a unit from WFB that had all magical weapons? I think there were maybe some elves units (they don't count, they are elves) and maybe some of the more elite Bretonnia knights, like Grail Knights. And those Grail Knights models are just wielding slightly more blinged weapons, right?
"Ice magic" is different from "whole unit that creates/enhance their weapons with flashy magic".
Kanluwen wrote: Didn't hear anyone complaining about wizards that could provide a flame enchantment to weapons before or Empire fire-mages running around all the time with their swords and staves ablaze, but now it's over the top?
Wizards are characters, very specific individuals that mastered magic. Elite warrior unit isn't a character. I mean, ASoIaF isn't very high fantasy (they do have some magic and dragons but it's not the meat of the series), and even they have flaming swords. "Fake" ones at first, and real ones later.
Can anyone name a unit from WFB that had all magical weapons? I think there were maybe some elves units (they don't count, they are elves) and maybe some of the more elite Bretonnia knights, like Grail Knights. And those Grail Knights models are just wielding slightly more blinged weapons, right?
"Ice magic" is different from "whole unit that creates/enhance their weapons with flashy magic".
How? Why is making an ice wall fine, but making few much smaller icicles to coat weapons out of question? This is Tzarina's Leibguard, drawn from all across her empire. There should be enough low-power wizards/shamanesses to fill it out. We're not talking about every soldier in the army being a mage.
I really hope the keep the AoS aesthetic away from the Old World.
Stuff like magic ice bows are fine in moderation (i.e- the Kislev Royal Guard) but if we get Kislev scouts called Frostcloak Tundrasteppers with Fleshbane Ice-daggers and Blizzardwrath Shardbows, then i'll lose all interest. (And i'm sure I wouldn't be the only one)
Old old world has stuff the old world didn’t have. Begs the question that should the armies of old have had these new ideas to flesh out the background the timeline and history would have significantly changed.
I’m happy for new things I just wish they kept it grounded in the reality they already established.
Nope- totally different-always have been- wash your mouth out for even saying it... Chaos Dwarfs are from the East not the North..Norse Dwarfs had their place in the lore - largest Karak was Kraka Drak and they fought against chaos...
Nope- totally different-always have been- wash your mouth out for even saying it... Chaos Dwarfs are from the East not the North..Norse Dwarfs had their place in the lore - largest Karak was Kraka Drak and they fought against chaos...
This. I'm pretty sure they may have been a bit more gruff and barbaric, but if I recall correctly, Thorgrim was able to reestablish ties with them
Thx.
Both weapons look mundane if overly ornamented no?
silverstu wrote: Nope- totally different-always have been- wash your mouth out for even saying it... Chaos Dwarfs are from the East not the North..Norse Dwarfs had their place in the lore - largest Karak was Kraka Drak and they fought against chaos...
Sorry my bad!
So that's why the hobgobelin mercenaries were from the east too!
I read the article and these aren't grunts. These ice themed weapons are being wielding by the royal guard. Like a unit of warrior ice witches that guard the Tsarina and occasionally go to war.
if warrior ice witches from Kislev are what they are leading with, i highly doubt old world is going to be about making 9th edition with everyones fav armies.
Thx.
Both weapons look mundane if overly ornamented no?
silverstu wrote: Nope- totally different-always have been- wash your mouth out for even saying it... Chaos Dwarfs are from the East not the North..Norse Dwarfs had their place in the lore - largest Karak was Kraka Drak and they fought against chaos...
Sorry my bad!
So that's why the hobgobelin mercenaries were from the east too!
Grail Knights had plain, but magical weapons as well before, but Total Warhammer has them now glowing with magical power in a showy fashion.
Nope- totally different-always have been- wash your mouth out for even saying it... Chaos Dwarfs are from the East not the North..Norse Dwarfs had their place in the lore - largest Karak was Kraka Drak and they fought against chaos...
This. I'm pretty sure they may have been a bit more gruff and barbaric, but if I recall correctly, Thorgrim was able to reestablish ties with them
Yep. It was why he was selected for the big chair.
Thx.
Both weapons look mundane if overly ornamented no?
silverstu wrote: Nope- totally different-always have been- wash your mouth out for even saying it... Chaos Dwarfs are from the East not the North..Norse Dwarfs had their place in the lore - largest Karak was Kraka Drak and they fought against chaos...
Sorry my bad!
So that's why the hobgobelin mercenaries were from the east too!
Grail Knights had plain, but magical weapons as well before, but Total Warhammer has them now glowing with magical power in a showy fashion.
Sadly the technology to make glowing plastic weapons was just not there yet for 6th edition.
I saw ToW featured on warcom and got excited, then I saw the sisters of the watch there and was seized by the spirit of meh.... just now very inspiring. Hopefully this means that Kislev as a fully realized faction is in the works, but seems a strange choice. Hard to contextualize any of this without more info tho, so I look forward to seeing how this develops. I just hope we get Dwarfs in there.
Maaaaaan. I thought this was supposed to be pandering to the boring old grognards who liked the old world? Surely if they keep up the sparkly magic (they put glow effects on the concept sketches?) Age of Sigmar vibe, this is going to be dead on arrival?
Are they not trying to cash in on the popularity of Total War and Vermintide? Isn't it simple??? Just copy the aesthetics of those games! They're what people like, y'know, that aesthetic you already own, The one that's designed and ready to go.
I get the point being really hammered in this thread that Kislev has spooky ice magic, and I actually really like the idea of an Ice Queen faction leader, but the real appeal of humans in the old world was that they didn't have fancy magic stuff. Having the magic confined to a forboding tower that spreads it's power across the land, but that the citizens live in awe and fear of it and the Ice queen is far more striking and powerful than yeah, this is our sacred ice magic, we slap it on everything from pommels to spears to arrowheads. Leave that to the elves. Gimme those burly muscle dudes on bears, gimme fat ugly lords, gimme desperate peasants, gimme grit and fear. Humans in warhammer (this goes for 40k as well, but I'll try to keep my frustration on topic) are really only larger than one thing (dwarfs are shorter, but they're much burlier, so it evens out imo) - goblins. When you're in a world were the only thing less diminuative than you is a goblin, it's a pretty desperate state of affairs. Those older models compaired to these newer sketches really feel starkly different, beyond the magic, the weapons are all elaborate and overwrought, unlike the simple functionalism of the older sculpts. The clothes, the sidelocks, straps and jewels all feel too ornate. They'd suit poncy elves, but Kislev? Those weird steppe russain/mongol/polish hussars? It's out of character, as are these seemingly lithe human magic users. Aren't wizards supposed to be secluded old nerds, who've spent their entire lives trying to understand something that humans really have no business meddling in, but try anyway?
I agree with other posters that it feels like they're going to try and blend this re-booted old world into AoS, and again, I think that's doomed if they're trying to pull back the crowd who liked the old world.
Spoiler:
Somewhere in Nottingham, a CEO boshed a fat line of slaneshii dust off of the cardstock terrain intended for the necromunda re-release, scrawled down AoS dreadfleet but metal instead of water on a tattered sheaf of notes, and started to run fictional conversion rates to apply to the Australian FW prices while doodling a few more stubbers on the primaris drop pod. A starved and filthy intern, shackled to a laptop that only displays webpages of the social media channels of the "Warhammer Community", purging negative comments from Facebook and re-posting stock photos on instagram stumbled in, skin freshly bloodied and torn, returning from the shareholder pits.
"S-sir" he stammered, trembling. The CEO glanced up, idly gumming more dust, whilst mind-mapping "Primaris Guilliman - bolt carbine fingers and stealth boltblade NEEDS TO BE TALLER HOW TALL IS A CASTELLAN??? GUILLMAN MUST BE TALLER POSSIBLY SCENIC BASE????? smoke effects MANDATORY"
"Sir, the shareholders are hungry, sir, they're making a frightful ruckus, saying they haven't had record-breaking profits in weeks... They're awful agitated, sir, awful."
"Right you are, Jenkins, right you are" Mused the CEO, tossing the schematics for plastic aspect warriors into a waste paper basket. The intern flinched at the sudden movement. Rummaging in a drawer, the CEO produced two darts, and threw them lazily one after the other over his shoulder at a pair of dartboards labelled "Sigmar factions generator". The CEO and intern turned to the results.
Next to the holes for "water" and "elves", "metal" and "orcs", and fire "fire" and "dwarfs", the darts stuck in "ice" and "humans but ordinary not the space marine ones"
"Right Jenkins, get to work, tell them we're expanding the order faction in sigmar"
"B-but sir, this perhaps could work for the Old World? I'm sure you remember, but actually Kislev is shrouded perpetually in a fog of freezing magic emanating from a mighty-"
"OLD WORLD!!?!?" Roared the CEO "What year is it, Jenkins?"
"2020, sir"
The CEO thrashed frantically around the room, a whirlwind of cascading paper, sketches of rhino re-designs and stormcasts with slightly different weapons. "By god, then that means..." hurridly he huffed from a bag of the dust again. "How many primarchs have come back? Vulkan isn't back yet, is he? I'll flay Craig if Vulkan's back... How's my version of space hulk but with Orks and Eldar selling???? Have you put out those Chaos Cultists as an expansion for Blackstone fortress? Increase the price to $50, and cancel the ratling regiment for Imperial Guard. Maybe squat them entirely?...The Old World???"
He sprinted over to an empty tray labelled "fantasy re-reboot" a single post-it with 55mm Skarsnik on SkySquig
I mean... Just compare the kislev models of the past to the concept art "go go politicaly correct warrior ice chicks yeah!!!" channelin the power of the ice realms... Because... they still need to shove concept realms down everyones throats...
Could have released concept art for some bad ass modern looking hussar winged lancers...but no. Icy mc wolf ice wolfblizzards but in the old world it is... !Ah Its the ice realms.. they have come!" so much for the old world. We can see how this is going... Might as well bury that shred of hope we had now.
Yeah I get that "these are sepcial unit royal guard so fluffise it is justified" but cmon... Who are we kidding thats going to be a common regiment/unit and you know it...
Are they not trying to cash in on the popularity of Total War and Vermintide? Isn't it simple??? Just copy the aesthetics of those games!
Uh... they are. I'm not sure if you've taken a look at whats actually in the Total Warhammers, but it isn't a world with no 'fancy magic stuff.' Neither was classic warhammer, really.
The Warhammer world was a play where ignorant apprentices accidentally fell into Necromancy (in several different stories), went looking for Slaan spaceships in the chaos wastes, theatrical directors had mutants in their troupe, the head of a noble line of the Empire was a giant piano-playing cockroach, and on and on.
I think that's doomed if they're trying to pull back the crowd who liked the old world.
I think they're smart enough to build off the back of total war and interesting ideas, and not risk failing because they're chasing an overly specific crowd that might not even be interested in coming back anyway.
They need to broad the appeal, not narrow it back down- that makes no business sense at all.
The real blow is that this is what GW thought would excite people when dropping a teaser about Kislev. Not Winged lancers, not mounted archers, not bear cavalry, not even Katarina or Boris themselves, but what appears to be a contrived new unit of ice warriors who, of course, happen to be all female.
Are they not trying to cash in on the popularity of Total War and Vermintide? Isn't it simple??? Just copy the aesthetics of those games!
Uh... they are. I'm not sure if you've taken a look at whats actually in the Total Warhammers, but it isn't a world with no 'fancy magic stuff.' Neither was classic warhammer, really.
The Warhammer world was a play where ignorant apprentices accidentally fell into Necromancy (in several different stories), went looking for Slaan spaceships in the chaos wastes, theatrical directors had mutants in their troupe, the head of a noble line of the Empire was a giant piano-playing cockroach, and on and on.
I think that's doomed if they're trying to pull back the crowd who liked the old world.
I think they're smart enough to build off the back of total war and interesting ideas, and not risk failing because they're chasing an overly specific crowd that might not even be interested in coming back anyway.
They need to broad the appeal, not narrow it back down- that makes no business sense at all.
I literally never said "no magic", please don't re-frame what I said to strengthen your own argument. I was saying it feels out of place for anyone who isn't a wizard. Yeah, you can get some human units that are enchanted, or have enchanted weapons in Total War, but for the most part your human army is gonna be chod halberdiers and other kinds of footslogging commoners, with some more exciting stuff for your counterpunch killy units, but it's hardly on the level of "all the weapons in this unit are made of magic ice, but instead of wizened old wizards experimenting with a force we don't know how to control, we're all lithe and youthful warriors". If they don't want the old world, why even bother bringing it back? Why not just keep AoS going with stuff like this?
But there's a clear interest in the previously establisted niche of design. Total War and Vermintide were really visually faithful to the original WHFB, why suddenly change that?
GW have the technical capability to produce miniatures faithful to this theme, but at a level of detail and customization that could easily blow their competetors out of the water when it comes to semi-historical human miniatures. They can afford to sink the detail and part counts into even ordinary line troops. Instead it looks like they're charging back down the AoS route of something too overrwought to ever be copied or imitated without making grounds for a court case, and it's killed my hype dead. I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks this.
To be fair, Total War also did this. Just look at that Bretonnian unit with glowing swords as an example. They already turned the dial up to eleven, so it's not entirely unwarranted.
Notice: the weapon tips/blades are not actually made of ice
There's just a layer of ice around them. Didn't hear anyone complaining about wizards that could provide a flame enchantment to weapons before or Empire fire-mages running around all the time with their swords and staves ablaze, but now it's over the top?
Am I the only one that remembers the falmir weapons in skyrim? This looks a lot like that.
For what it's worth I don't mind this new faction and could be cool. Kinda bummed we have yet another human faction but whatever. I mean where are those needle fanged cthulu humanoid beasts 8th somewhat hinted at.
Honestly I think this is more in line with 8th ed than aos but I never really played aos aside from a game or so.
Well to be fair man 8th introduced magical units mostly in the form of magical cavalry. I didn't fully mind except the fact mat ward gave each a literal ward save which people then added magic resistance to a hero and added them to the unit. I kid you not ive seen noobs beat pros with dark elves and wood elves after they got their army books. I dont think it was 7th ed 40k bad but elves and vampires were definitely in the top tier and it was partly thanks to units like that.
Are ice guard gonna be OP? I don't think so and I was never really aware of how good sisters of averlorn were since I didn't come across high elves much (banner of the world dragon was bs though).
Anyway though I enjoyed 8th my biggest issue of it was very random magic phase and magic resistance shouldn't have combined with ward saves to make a better ward save. It caused 2+ ward vs magic and since shooting wasn't too effective outside war machines the magical elf cavalry would just magic you on the move without issue. That's another issue though. If shooting wasn't poisoned or artillery dice dependent then it sucked. Make shooting a bit more effective. Nothing huge but at least allow a bunch of shooting to take out a light cavalry unit or two. Don't turn the game into a shooting-fest but make it a bit more effective. Seriously just a couple big fixes would've been great to 8th ed.
I kinda of like them, but I do hope they tone down the magic a bit. Magic in fantasy was often to dramatic and powerful in game.
I just don’t think Warhammer fantasy needs it to be cool, and often it’s nice to have it sit as a very special rarity that even the soldiers marching with wizards are left in awe off even small acts of magic. a whole unit of magic users should be a rare sight. So depends how they take it.
Blurgh. I agree with many here that these suffer from the same over design and reliance on magic as the AOS releases. These would look right at home in AOS.
Is it too much to ask for people with just regular functional looking weapons that don't rely on 'it works because it is MAGIC!"???
Also, this further confirms for me that WHFB classic is (at least in part) an attempt to drink Mantic's KoW milkshake. One of the main armies from KoW 3rd Ed box set is the "Northern Alliance" people in furs with ice weapons.
for all people complaining about the weapons, these guys are royal guards, ofcourse they get the best of the best. Let's just wait until we see the normal rank and file units and weapons before complaining about to much magic. Fantasy always had magic and entire units with magic weapons
terry wrote: for all people complaining about the weapons, these guys are royal guards, ofcourse they get the best of the best. Let's just wait until we see the normal rank and file units and weapons before complaining about to much magic. Fantasy always had magic and entire units with magic weapons
You can do Royal guard, and best of the best with a theme that is toned down. Honestly i think it would be cooler. There weapons all just fancy but mundane looking without a good look, and the frost effects are a cool touch and freezes the skin and wounds when struck. Something for players to work with from a hobby point.
Magic does not have to be Super flash and bang to be really cool.
Leave that for the Legendary artifacts to sometimes use.
Also i do not really think there was many units with flashy magic weapons until later into WHF, at least not for the army i play.
terry wrote: for all people complaining about the weapons, these guys are royal guards, ofcourse they get the best of the best. Let's just wait until we see the normal rank and file units and weapons before complaining about to much magic. Fantasy always had magic and entire units with magic weapons
You can do Royal guard, and best of the best with a theme that is toned down. Honestly i think it would be cooler. There weapons all just fancy but mundane looking without a good look, and the frost effects are a cool touch and freezes the skin and wounds when struck. Something for players to work with from a hobby point.
Magic does not have to be Super flash and bang to be really cool.
Leave that for the Legendary artifacts to sometimes use.
Also i do not really think there was many units with flashy magic weapons until later into WHF, at least not for the army i play.
Absolutely this. Dark elf Blackguard, Phoenix Guard, and Hammerers come to mind only as a few examples of this.
Someone mentioned Grave Guard and Chaos Knights as units that traditionally had magic weapons, but the thing is that their visual design gives off absolutely no blatant hints about these weapons being "magic", and that's really how I like magic weapons (as I believe is the case with many WHFB fans looking forward to TOW).
In fact, the Grave Guard glaives look the most realistic of the bunch I mentioned, obviously mimicking historical war glaives.
dyndraig wrote: This seems really tone-deaf from GW, you would suspect they would lead with something a bit more safe and established to lure in the grogs.
As you can plainly see, there is a large pool of players who will defend GW no matter what. Probably have a bank of both "WHFB was always high magic" and "WHFB was always low magic" essays ready to deploy depending on which way GW goes.
terry wrote: for all people complaining about the weapons, these guys are royal guards, ofcourse they get the best of the best. Let's just wait until we see the normal rank and file units and weapons before complaining about to much magic. Fantasy always had magic and entire units with magic weapons
Lizardmen Temple Guard are bodyguards to the strongest magicians in the Warhammer World, and have hats made from skulls and halberds made from stone, wood and gold. Despite the fact that they are bipedal dinosaur people, they look more grounded than the new Ice Guard.
The text mentions that they themselves channel the magic, which makes the ability to control magic (and in the Warhammer universe especially, controlling is the tricky bit) pretty common. I guess it fits with later additions like Doomfire Warlocks and Sisters of the Thorn, but, well, those are Elves. (And admittedly, I never liked them much either.)
Although the fact that they are just called "Ice Guard" is at least a good sign in terms of naming conventions.
Lord Damocles wrote:Kislev dudes (and dudettes) with stahlrim weapons and ice magic sounds like the Old World is getting Age-of-Sigmarified.
That's the goal right there. They tried tossing the frogs into the pot of already boiling water and saw how many jumped out. The plan now is to get us back in the comfy pot and turn up the heat slowly until they have us cooked. Retconning AOS into the Old World seems to be their method.
Kid_Kyoto wrote:The detail on those imply it'll be a 28mm game and not 15mm Warmaster or whatever.
You kidding, have you MET the fandom? It won't sway people at all. Hell, they could show pics of the new models next to old ones to show scale and you'll STILL have people on this board saying it's going to be a Warmaster relaunch.
My first response was optimism mixed with some pragmatism and reassurances that I still play 6th if this winds up not being my thing. THIS press release tells me I need to work on finding more 6th Ed. players...
Obviously this is only an initial sneak peek at things and concept art etc. But im expecting GW to do what they should have done instead of creating AoS.
Rather than blowing up the setting, they should have brought in the AoS style mechanics but expand and explore new factions. I was expecting the End Times to result in a very very narrow win for the “good” side but leaving massive parts of the old world devastated. That would have allowed GW to move some of the faction design forward and re explore old factions like Chaos Dwarves and Kislev.
I am expecting “the old world” to be AoS mechanics but using the old world setting and factions.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: You’ve heard of recurve bow? Here is tricurve bow. Is better. Is 50% more curve. Horn and sinew is good for bow; better is horn, sinew, and magic bear snot. Bow is shoot the arrow good.
dyndraig wrote: This seems really tone-deaf from GW, you would suspect they would lead with something a bit more safe and established to lure in the grogs.
As you can plainly see, there is a large pool of players who will defend GW no matter what. Probably have a bank of both "WHFB was always high magic" and "WHFB was always low magic" essays ready to deploy depending on which way GW goes.
All they need to do is post the White Dwarf article that explains that WHFB was designed to be able to support BOTH. GW has always designed the setting with the philosophy that it's designed to be what the players need it to be in regards to high/middle/low fantasy. They even specifically used the Empire as an example. The closer you are to Altdorf, the higher you get with the farther, poorer provinces being low Fantasy to the point that magic may as well not exist.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: You’ve heard of recurve bow? Here is tricurve bow. Is better. Is 50% more curve. Horn and sinew is good for bow; better is horn, sinew, and magic bear snot. Bow is shoot the arrow good.
Yeah, only these are obviously unstrung. If the gals in question end up having proper Hunnic/Tatar/Turkic bows I'd be over the roof, but as things are they visually are the closest to compound bows with no compound elements - with those two usleless spiky things added with no practical or aesthetic value.
BertBert wrote: To be fair, Total War also did this. Just look at that Bretonnian unit with glowing swords as an example. They already turned the dial up to eleven, so it's not entirely unwarranted.
The Holy Wardens of La Maisontaal basically took weapons off Grail Knights. There's also the glowing weapons of the Grail Knights and the special ones that follow the Fey Enchantress.
Loved the old kieslev stuff so hoping we see more like that.
Only plus side is they like making bigger stuff, so bear cavalry could finally be a thing.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Lizardmen Temple Guard are bodyguards to the strongest magicians in the Warhammer World, and have hats made from skulls and halberds made from stone, wood and gold. Despite the fact that they are bipedal dinosaur people, they look more grounded than the new Ice Guard.
Aztec dinosaur people do not 'look more grounded' than some normal human female warriors with some ice stuck to their weapons.
At the end of the day is about having special effects. Thats what most people instantly recognise as magical.
It doesnt matter how intricate your weapons are , as long as they are steel. I mean, compare some of the concept arts of Black Guard from Age of Reckoning and their weaponry. In comparison Sisters of Averlorn have normal bows that are on fire.
But thats what make them magical.
I don't think this weapons are too much magical. I mean, normal weapons with a little of ice on top. We need to wait and see, but in fantasy having wizards putting the weapons of whole armies on fire wasn't uncommon.
If the game is nothing more than AOS set in the old world with the same AOS mechanics, the same pay to win free summoning, the same focus on min/max mortal wounds where possible, double turn existing, and the same emphasis on listbuiding wombo-combos, then it is still to me not anything I'd be interested in.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: You’ve heard of recurve bow? Here is tricurve bow. Is better. Is 50% more curve. Horn and sinew is good for bow; better is horn, sinew, and magic bear snot. Bow is shoot the arrow good.
...I would probably still replace them with some Fireforge Mongolian bows just to keep to the old aesthetic, though, and use these for Mantic or Frostgrave northerners.
I mean I [/i]would[/i] if I could justify spending $55 on 5 minis, which I can’t.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Lizardmen Temple Guard are bodyguards to the strongest magicians in the Warhammer World, and have hats made from skulls and halberds made from stone, wood and gold. Despite the fact that they are bipedal dinosaur people, they look more grounded than the new Ice Guard.
Aztec dinosaur people do not 'look more grounded' than some normal human female warriors with some ice stuck to their weapons.
You'd think that much at least would be obvious!
As someone noted above, this is for an Elite unit - and seeing as Kislev is on the Front Lines in the battle against Chaos...
terry wrote: for all people complaining about the weapons, these guys are royal guards, ofcourse they get the best of the best. Let's just wait until we see the normal rank and file units and weapons before complaining about to much magic. Fantasy always had magic and entire units with magic weapons
Lizardmen Temple Guard are bodyguards to the strongest magicians in the Warhammer World, and have hats made from skulls and halberds made from stone, wood and gold. Despite the fact that they are bipedal dinosaur people, they look more grounded than the new Ice Guard.
No.
Sunno wrote:Obviously this is only an initial sneak peek at things and concept art etc. But im expecting GW to do what they should have done instead of creating AoS.
Rather than blowing up the setting, they should have brought in the AoS style mechanics but expand and explore new factions. I was expecting the End Times to result in a very very narrow win for the “good” side but leaving massive parts of the old world devastated. That would have allowed GW to move some of the faction design forward and re explore old factions like Chaos Dwarves and Kislev.
I am expecting “the old world” to be AoS mechanics but using the old world setting and factions.
People were mad when they introduced Ogre Kingdoms. What you suggest would of had them live streaming their suicides.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Lizardmen Temple Guard are bodyguards to the strongest magicians in the Warhammer World, and have hats made from skulls and halberds made from stone, wood and gold. Despite the fact that they are bipedal dinosaur people, they look more grounded than the new Ice Guard.
Aztec dinosaur people do not 'look more grounded' than some normal human female warriors with some ice stuck to their weapons.
You'd think that much at least would be obvious!
As someone noted above, this is for an Elite unit - and seeing as Kislev is on the Front Lines in the battle against Chaos...
Of course, every battlefield just needs that elite ice magic wielding unit in droves riiiight ?
"so josh as a core in my battalion I have 3 units of ice guard mc wolfy ice witch freezewraiths..."
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Lizardmen Temple Guard are bodyguards to the strongest magicians in the Warhammer World, and have hats made from skulls and halberds made from stone, wood and gold. Despite the fact that they are bipedal dinosaur people, they look more grounded than the new Ice Guard.
Aztec dinosaur people do not 'look more grounded' than some normal human female warriors with some ice stuck to their weapons.
You'd think that much at least would be obvious!
As someone noted above, this is for an Elite unit - and seeing as Kislev is on the Front Lines in the battle against Chaos...
Of course, every battlefield just needs that elite ice magic wielding unit in droves riiiight ?
"so josh as a core in my battalion I have 3 units of ice guard mc wolfy ice witch freezewraiths..."
We don't even have the rules yet can you keep the straw in bales rather then creating a strawman?
pm713 wrote:I'm very confused about how a female ice magic warrior is politically correct.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Argive wrote: "go go politicaly correct warrior ice chicks yeah!!!"
Says more about you than it says about the model. Bis.
Because having 'ard looking Rus inspirered kossac blokes in furs would be "politcialy incorrect and racist" for today's times. As if it should matter.... So here we are with ice wielding freezewitch subzero frosty frosts instead because design phiolosphy cant follow the OG source material. If you dont get it you dont get it...
pm713 wrote:I'm very confused about how a female ice magic warrior is politically correct.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Argive wrote: "go go politicaly correct warrior ice chicks yeah!!!"
Says more about you than it says about the model.
Bis.
Because having 'ard looking Rus inspirered kossac blokes in furs would be "politcialy incorrect and racist" for today's times.
As if it should matter.... So here we are with ice wielding freezewitch subzero frosty frosts instead because design phiolosphy cant follow the OG source material. If you dont get it you dont get it...
Good lord.. Kislevs lore may be scattered, but a little glance around here and there shows that the Ice Magic of Kislev has been purely women based. They even banned men from magic long ago because of the fear that a male ice caster will taint the ice flows.
A lot of it was back in Warhammer Fantasy RPG 2nd edition, but at the same time GW closely kept an eye to a lot of the RPG books.
pm713 wrote: I'm very confused about how a female ice magic warrior is politically correct.
Because it's a case of Girl Power! triumphing over silly, insignificant things like physiology?
Though in all seriousness, this is far from the worst example of that sort of thing. Bows are definitely not the sort of weapons you'd want female warriors wielding (crossbows would make far more sense), but at least these appear to be shortbows, rather than full longbows/warbows. Spears and similar polearms are almost always solid choices and I'm assuming the swords/knives will be secondary or tertiary weapons, which is also perfectly reasonable.
That being said, I'm really not sold on the actual weapon designs. I'm not necessarily opposed to ice magic, but it's use here seems very odd. Look at the icicle-thing sprouting from the end of the arrow and ask yourself what the point of it is. It looks uneven (which will almost certainly reduce the stability of the arrow in flight) and I'm baffled as to what it's supposed to accomplish. Is it supposed to help the arrow penetrate armour? Because aside from the fact that it's pretty damn thick, penetrating armour is something that can be done by mundane arrows just by making them a different shape.
It's a similar case with the spear... pitchfork... thing. You've got a lot of ice at the top which will make it heavier and more difficult to move. And if anything the ice seems to have made it significantly more blunt, so a successful strike will actually cause less damage than if you'd left the magic ice off.
Now, it's possible that the ice is supposed to be more ethereal or something, but this seems a very poor way to represent that. But more than that it just seems so unnecessary.
I'll be honest, I'm also not a fan of the clothes. The top right image doesn't look too bad, but masks shown in the full picture and middle-right look very strange. Maybe it's just the art but they come across as being far too thin for winter clothes. If anything, they look more like some sort of ice-burkas. Also, apparently a benefit of being a Royal Guard is that you can accumulate an ungodly number of belts and straps. Seriously, imagine having to fasten and tighten all those straps, in freezing weather and whilst wearing mittens.
TL: DR I'm not opposed to the basic concept but the execution seems rather janky. Still, I appreciate that this is just concept art, so hopefully most of these issues will be amended before production.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Lizardmen Temple Guard are bodyguards to the strongest magicians in the Warhammer World, and have hats made from skulls and halberds made from stone, wood and gold. Despite the fact that they are bipedal dinosaur people, they look more grounded than the new Ice Guard.
Aztec dinosaur people do not 'look more grounded' than some normal human female warriors with some ice stuck to their weapons.
It also ignores that the Temple Guard wearing ceremonial skulls and armor was the big difference between them and the standard Saurus.
That's not new either. It was in the Lizardmen book that dropped before the Lustria campaign, there was a whole spread in there talking about how the amount of gold a Saurus or Skink wore conveyed their status.
Kislev was always ruled by a Ice Queen though. So having a cadre of elite ice magic wielding warrior women makes sense thematically, a lot like how Alarielle had a cadre of magic bow wielding handmaidens under her command.
Kanluwen wrote: It also ignores that the Temple Guard wearing ceremonial skulls and armor was the big difference between them and the standard Saurus
He doesn't ignore it, actually it is part of his point. Even for the elite guard of the most powerful sorcerers in the Old World, they differentiate themselves not by magical flaming weapons of ice and acid electricity, but simply by "mundane", low-fantasy stuff like skulls and gold.
pm713 wrote:I'm very confused about how a female ice magic warrior is politically correct.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Argive wrote: "go go politicaly correct warrior ice chicks yeah!!!"
Says more about you than it says about the model.
Bis.
Because having 'ard looking Rus inspirered kossac blokes in furs would be "politcialy incorrect and racist" for today's times.
As if it should matter.... So here we are with ice wielding freezewitch subzero frosty frosts instead because design phiolosphy cant follow the OG source material. If you dont get it you dont get it...
Overreaction much?
This is only one new unit that Kislev gets and one that fits them quite well. Kislev is not only known for its Cossack-like warriors, but also for their Ice witches, something that has been a part of their lore since the RPG books. The land of Kislev itself is attuned to this form of Magic.
They also mention both Winged lancers and Ungols, so you've got your "Kossac blokes" covered. The flavour of the faction isn't going away just because they've added novice ice witches that use their magic on buffing their weapons. I'm expecting Bear Riders to come out of this faction.
Stop using "political correctness" as some sort of scapegoat to justify complaints and whining.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Kislev was always ruled by a Ice Queen though. So having a cadre of elite ice magic wielding warrior women makes sense thematically, a lot like how Alarielle had a cadre of magic bow wielding handmaidens under her command.
I think an elite cadre of female ice-mages would make thematic sense.
But female ice-mages who are also martial warriors and also the royal guard...?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I may be in the minority here but I actually agree with Coenus Scaldingus.
One is just a different species, the other is obviously magical.
I mean, if Lizardmen were to be grounded in reality, they'd need 90% more feathers on most things. Our knowledge what dinosaurs looked like moved significantly since the 90s and sauruses are as outlandish as ice weapons.
Not to mention they're not actually aztec, their weapons look way too clunky to be macuahuitls, and skinks don't use atlatls, which is again, silly since they're supposed to be inspired by mesoamerica. Lizardmen are just ahistoric mess designed by AOS hacks, clearly.
Kanluwen wrote: It also ignores that the Temple Guard wearing ceremonial skulls and armor was the big difference between them and the standard Saurus
He doesn't ignore it, actually it is part of his point. Even for the elite guard of the most powerful sorcerers in the Old World, they differentiate themselves not by magical flaming weapons of ice and acid electricity, but simply by "mundane", low-fantasy stuff like skulls and gold.
... Whether they're "the elite guard of the most powerful sorcerers in the Old World" or not--they differentiated themselves with ceremonial garb and weapons.
How hard is that to understand? The armor present is the whole difference between them and standard Saurus. The gold on them is ceremonial as well, showcasing their status.
And let's not forget as well that their weapons weren't "made from stone" anyways. Lizardmen had weapons that were effectively magical meteorite stone, not regular ol' rocks.
Much though I'm of the "Keep it very low fantasy" version of Warhammer, I quite like the look of Army of Elsas.
If they're one unit in isolation. Having the Ice Queen turn up at every skirmish is a nonsense (and why I never liked special characters) but her sending some of her elite troops to keep an eye on things? Sure, why not. But not every unit, please. Keep it guys in furry hats in the main.
And bring on the Bear Riders.
(It also occurs to me that in Frozen, magic IS hated and feared and weird. And the fact that it's really difficult to control is ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS OF THE PLOT. Frozen would fit just fine into Warhammer.)
(Yes, I know that the Ice Queen of Kislev comes from a lot further back than Disney's take on The Snow Queen)
Graphite wrote: Much though I'm of the "Keep it very low fantasy" version of Warhammer, I quite like the look of Army of Elsas.
If they're one unit in isolation. Having the Ice Queen turn up at every skirmish is a nonsense (and why I never liked special characters) but her sending some of her elite troops to keep an eye on things? Sure, why not. But not every unit, please. Keep it guys in furry hats in the main.
And bring on the Bear Riders.
(It also occurs to me that in Frozen, magic IS hated and feared and weird. And the fact that it's really difficult to control is ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS OF THE PLOT. Frozen would fit just fine into Warhammer.)
(Yes, I know that the Ice Queen of Kislev comes from a lot further back than Disney's take on The Snow Queen)
It also doesn't really fit Kislev in general given that the Ice Queens sisterhood is what overall effectively rules Kislev and keeps other cults and magics out.
Graphite wrote: Much though I'm of the "Keep it very low fantasy" version of Warhammer, I quite like the look of Army of Elsas.
If they're one unit in isolation. Having the Ice Queen turn up at every skirmish is a nonsense (and why I never liked special characters) but her sending some of her elite troops to keep an eye on things? Sure, why not. But not every unit, please. Keep it guys in furry hats in the main.
And bring on the Bear Riders.
(It also occurs to me that in Frozen, magic IS hated and feared and weird. And the fact that it's really difficult to control is ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS OF THE PLOT. Frozen would fit just fine into Warhammer.)
(Yes, I know that the Ice Queen of Kislev comes from a lot further back than Disney's take on The Snow Queen)
It also doesn't really fit Kislev in general given that the Ice Queens sisterhood is what overall effectively rules Kislev and keeps other cults and magics out.
Depends on what period its set in as well - Kislev has changed over the centuries - it was even ruled by a Vampire for a few hundred years...
IIRC is about IC 2010 when Otillia III was the Empress in Talebheim, Ludwig was in Altdorf and Helmut in Marienburg so Kiselv has only been a entity for about 500 years so they might be a legacy of Khan Queen Miska or her daughter Shoika
If people react this heavily to something that’s actually fluffy and has previously been in their setting before, I want GW to go full on Disney.
I’d love to see a few ice golems to trigger people a bit more.
One thing I’ve never understood is peoples inability to show any reason towards others opinions.
Everyone has a different view on every army (good, bad or neutral)
Only on the internet do you see people bash others because they don’t like the same thing.
It’s almost as if some people don’t realise that everyone has their own opinions on design.
I also like how far some people are willing to go just to put someone down on liking an army that they don’t.
Makes it far easier to just find people of this nature and block them.
vipoid wrote: I think an elite cadre of female ice-mages would make thematic sense.
But female ice-mages who are also martial warriors and also the royal guard...?
I don't know, just seems a bit mixed up to me.
Same.
Ice witches as characters, and the faction spellcasters, would work perfect.
Cronch wrote: I mean, if Lizardmen were to be grounded in reality, they'd need 90% more feathers on most things.
Let me google Skink on my favorite search engine.
Not seeing any feather on this lizard. Might be relevant when talking about most LIZARDmen .
Cronch wrote: sauruses are as outlandish as ice weapons.
Let's agree to disagree on that then.
Kanluwen wrote: Whether they're "the elite guard of the most powerful sorcerers in the Old World" or not--they differentiated themselves with ceremonial garb and weapons.
Wait, are you arguing with the strange strawman that elite warriors shouldn't be differentiated by ceremonial garb and weapons?
Well, congrats on so easily defeating the strawman, but you can rest easy, nobody ever argued against that specific point. Some of us would just like said that such stuff would be better as just better crafted, more expensive and better quality than normal gear, rather than super-duper mega-flashy magical stuff.
posermcbogus wrote: Those older models compaired to these newer sketches really feel starkly different, beyond the magic, the weapons are all elaborate and overwrought, unlike the simple functionalism of the older sculpts. The clothes, the sidelocks, straps and jewels all feel too ornate. They'd suit poncy elves, but Kislev? Those weird steppe russain/mongol/polish hussars? It's out of character
Yup, real life hussars were all about functionalism, no rich clothes here, no straps or dangles, no detail, nothing elaborate or overwrought, no nothing
pm713 wrote: I'm very confused about how a female ice magic warrior is politically correct.
Didn't you get the memo? Any woman out of kitchen is somehow PC/SJW/[insert another inane strawman ABC here]. Female models? Haram. Female players? Double HARAM
Never mind both Kislev and real life Eastern Europe differed from Western Europe/Western Old World in being pretty egalitarian, anything but 'burly male cossacks' (which by the way shows hilarious ignorance about Eastern European civilizations, not to mention being completely anachronistic for supposed Old World era by only oh, a few hundred years or so) would lead to some bravely charging straw windmills, with no regard to historical accuracy or nuance. The facts don't fit one's imagination and prejudices? Then they must be SJW fabrication or something then
Skink lizard is clearly not the same a the lizardmen skink, which seems to be based on a dinosaur body plan, as evident by the veritcal, not splayed wide position of legs. Since WFB is so firmly grounded in our world, just with magic, we must assume that's the case, as no lizards ever had that kind of hips (though some crocodilions did if i recall)
posermcbogus wrote: Those older models compaired to these newer sketches really feel starkly different, beyond the magic, the weapons are all elaborate and overwrought, unlike the simple functionalism of the older sculpts. The clothes, the sidelocks, straps and jewels all feel too ornate. They'd suit poncy elves, but Kislev? Those weird steppe russain/mongol/polish hussars? It's out of character
Yup, real life hussars were all about functionalism, no rich clothes here, no straps or dangles, no detail, nothing elaborate or overwrought, no nothing
pm713 wrote: I'm very confused about how a female ice magic warrior is politically correct.
Didn't you get the memo? Any woman out of kitchen is somehow PC/SJW/[insert another inane strawman ABC here]. Female models? Haram. Female players? Double HARAM
Never mind both Kislev and real life Eastern Europe differed from Western Europe/Western Old World in being pretty egalitarian, anything but 'burly male cossacks' (which by the way shows hilarious ignorance about Eastern European civilizations, not to mention being completely anachronistic for supposed Old World era by only oh, a few hundred years or so) would lead to some bravely charging straw windmills, with no regard to historical accuracy or nuance. The facts don't fit one's imagination and prejudices? Then they must be SJW fabrication or something then
The 16th century hussars and burly cossac was a theme GW went with for kislev originaly... So I guess they were pretty ignorant about eastern european civilization according to you. And now this explains exactly why the change in design approach to PC this.
Please dont try to lecture me about where I was born and raised in.
I must have missed all the history lessons where woman were out in the front liines of the turk invasions and the sicz zapororwska uprising...
Also kislev was not ruled by the "ice queen" like its some sort of AOS timeless realm....
It was ruled by a Ice queen for a time. Her father tamed/beat a fethin bear and rode it into tow for god sake and thats how their family became recognised and came to rule as far as I remember.. After his death she picke dup the mantle coz she a bad ass too.
To clarify: I have no issue about the ice witches being chicks or dudes.. I have an issue with this clear shift into generic "ice magic warriors" rather than stick to the roots of Rus/Cossac inspired kislev being the main driving asthetic.
Because its ice magic warriors today. and Magic carpet riding ice djns tomorrow and so on.
All of their weapons and equipment is clearly inspired by central asian people, which were also either part of Rus or bordered them (like the Crimean Khanate). The only "non historical" stylings are the ice bits on the weapons. Which is in line with Steam Tanks, Bear-riding and barbarians being able to field larger armies than civilized kingdoms.
I don't quite get the complaints about the new unit. I don't too much about Kislev, but looking at the wiki, these don't seem to have any significant problems lore-wise?
Ice Magic, and Ice Witches, seem to be quite a big part of Kislev culture. They go around testing for any sign of Ice Magic Ability as part of their Equinox Festival. Girls who show some signs of being able to use Ice Magic are then taken to be trained and become apprentice Witches - but only the girls, as male magic users aren't allowed in Kislev Culture due to superstition. So thematically there isn't a really a problem with a unit of female Ice Magic users. It doesn't seem out of place for them to be royal guard/as part of the Ice Court either, as being involved in the political side of things is something they also do to a significant extent.
As for their weapons being wrapped in magical ice, Ice Magic already allows the creation of weapons like that - there's a "Frost Blade" that manifests a blade of ice, and also a "sword of ice" spell which is similar. An elite guard consisting of ice magic users who are able to enchant their weapons with seems seems fine considering those.
I really don't see how this unit supposedly doesn't fit Kislev?
Mentlegen324 wrote: It doesn't seem out of place for them to be royal guard/as part of the Ice Court either, as being involved in the political side of things is something they also do to a significant extent.
You do understand that those are totally different things, right?
This would be the medieval equivalent of having the British PM guarded by an elite team of MPs.
Mentlegen324 wrote: It doesn't seem out of place for them to be royal guard/as part of the Ice Court either, as being involved in the political side of things is something they also do to a significant extent.
You do understand that those are totally different things, right?
This would be the medieval equivalent of having the British PM guarded by an elite team of MPs.
But it does make sense that you'd train your mages to fight well in combat and from there it's a short step to royal guard especially if women have special status.
Mentlegen324 wrote: It doesn't seem out of place for them to be royal guard/as part of the Ice Court either, as being involved in the political side of things is something they also do to a significant extent.
You do understand that those are totally different things, right?
This would be the medieval equivalent of having the British PM guarded by an elite team of MPs.
It isn't like that, really. The political and military side of things are not entirely separate for the Ice Witches, they use their powers to defend Kislev and are a sisterhood who guides and manipulates aspects of Kislev culture.
A culture where ice magic is of great importance using mages who are trained to fight, and who also have an interest in what's going on, as royal guard/part of the Ice Court does not seem that odd to me.
But it does make sense that you'd train your mages to fight well in combat
So then why aren't other mages trained well in combat? Other human mages certainly aren't. Elven mages (including dark elf sorceresses) aren't either. Granted, it's been a while since I played WHFB but unless I'm misremembering there were almost no mages with good combat ability.
Hence, I think it's fair to assume that their magic training (or whatever) generally precludes them from also learning any significant combat ability.
pm713 wrote: and from there it's a short step to royal guard especially if women have special status.
But . . . why?
Surely if these ice-witches have significant power and status, then it should be the other way around - they should be the ones being guarded, not acting as guards for others. Even moreso on the battlefield where, unless the Ice Queen is attending in person, they are likely to be the most important people on the battlefield.
But it does make sense that you'd train your mages to fight well in combat
So then why aren't other mages trained well in combat? Other human mages certainly aren't. Elven mages (including dark elf sorceresses) aren't either. Granted, it's been a while since I played WHFB but unless I'm misremembering there were almost no mages with good combat ability.
Hence, I think it's fair to assume that their magic training (or whatever) generally precludes them from also learning any significant combat ability.
pm713 wrote: and from there it's a short step to royal guard especially if women have special status.
But . . . why?
Surely if these ice-witches have significant power and status, then it should be the other way around - they should be the ones being guarded, not acting as guards for others. Even moreso on the battlefield where, unless the Ice Queen is attending in person, they are likely to be the most important people on the battlefield.
Culture? Just because mages aren't trained in combat in one place, doesn't mean they're not in another. Especially in somewhere like Kislev, which is right on the wastes doorstep. Stop trying to shoehorn everything into the same box.
Cronch wrote: Skink lizard is clearly not the same a the lizardmen skink, which seems to be based on a dinosaur body plan, as evident by the veritcal, not splayed wide position of legs.
Did you somehow miss the "man" part of lizardman?
If the skinks were based on dinosaurs they would have feathers, checkmate atheist!
Irbis wrote: not to mention being completely anachronistic for supposed Old World era by only oh, a few hundred years or so
Well Bretonia is anachronistic to the Empire by a few hundred years, so...
Mentlegen324 wrote: I really don't see how this unit supposedly doesn't fit Kislev?
Not about Kislev, it's about the general WFB mood.
Previously there were like 3 or 4 whole units with magic weapons, and those just looked like a slightly more ornate weapons. Similarly, there were very very few units of magic users.
Even simply having characters that were magic users and good fighters used to be very rare, like I know it was the case for vampires but beside that I can't think of any other such character.
Here we have a whole unit of magic user good fighters with magic weapons that looks very flashy magical instead of just more ornate weapons.
Culture? Just because mages aren't trained in combat in one place, doesn't mean they're not in another.
Nope, you're right. Clearly everyone else in the Old World is just brain-dead and can't see the advantage in giving their mages martial training. Nor it seems do mages ever take the initiative to get such training themselves, even the ones living in the most backstab-happy cultures in existence.
Thank goodness for Kislev - the only place where people have actual, functioning brains.
Cronch wrote: Skink lizard is clearly not the same a the lizardmen skink, which seems to be based on a dinosaur body plan, as evident by the veritcal, not splayed wide position of legs.
Did you somehow miss the "man" part of lizardman?
If the skinks were based on dinosaurs they would have feathers, checkmate atheist!
Irbis wrote: not to mention being completely anachronistic for supposed Old World era by only oh, a few hundred years or so
Well Bretonia is anachronistic to the Empire by a few hundred years, so...
Mentlegen324 wrote: I really don't see how this unit supposedly doesn't fit Kislev?
Not about Kislev, it's about the general WFB mood.
Previously there were like 3 or 4 whole units with magic weapons, and those just looked like a slightly more ornate weapons. Similarly, there were very very few units of magic users.
Even simply having characters that were magic users and good fighters used to be very rare, like I know it was the case for vampires but beside that I can't think of any other such character.
Here we have a whole unit of magic user good fighters with magic weapons that looks very flashy magical instead of just more ornate weapons.
One must also remember that GW's ability to produce things was a factor. Flashy things and fancier things were difficult to produce.. So they for the most part didn't for most of the lifecycle of the old world, despite there being lore things justifying them. They were also trying to hit into historicals as well when they were popular.
Also Ogre Kingdoms counted as having good magical power mages. Butchers wanted more things for the pot!
Culture? Just because mages aren't trained in combat in one place, doesn't mean they're not in another.
Nope, you're right. Clearly everyone else in the Old World is just brain-dead and can't see the advantage in giving their mages martial training. Nor it seems do mages ever take the initiative to get such training themselves, even the ones living in the most backstab-happy cultures in existence.
Thank goodness for Kislev - the only place where people have actual, functioning brains.
Welcome to humanity, where everyone thinks doing things their way is the correct way and turn their noses up at anyone else's ideas. Enjoy your stay.
Culture? Just because mages aren't trained in combat in one place, doesn't mean they're not in another.
Nope, you're right. Clearly everyone else in the Old World is just brain-dead and can't see the advantage in giving their mages martial training. Nor it seems do mages ever take the initiative to get such training themselves, even the ones living in the most backstab-happy cultures in existence.
Thank goodness for Kislev - the only place where people have actual, functioning brains.
What are Chaos Sorcerers, what are Bright Wizards, how about Vampires?
Seems like it would be a hybrid unit that is decent in combat and magic, and use that flexibility to take on opponents, while in a straight up combat or magic duel they would be out classes by specialist fighters or dedicated mages.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: One must also remember that GW's ability to produce things was a factor. Flashy things and fancier things were difficult to produce.. So they for the most part didn't for most of the lifecycle of the old world, despite there being lore things justifying them.
Oh there might have been practical reasons for it, but it doesn't change that this is how I remembered the old world, and how I would like the reboot to be. Not like AoS.
But it does make sense that you'd train your mages to fight well in combat
So then why aren't other mages trained well in combat? Other human mages certainly aren't. Elven mages (including dark elf sorceresses) aren't either. Granted, it's been a while since I played WHFB but unless I'm misremembering there were almost no mages with good combat ability.
Hence, I think it's fair to assume that their magic training (or whatever) generally precludes them from also learning any significant combat ability.
pm713 wrote: and from there it's a short step to royal guard especially if women have special status.
But . . . why?
Surely if these ice-witches have significant power and status, then it should be the other way around - they should be the ones being guarded, not acting as guards for others. Even moreso on the battlefield where, unless the Ice Queen is attending in person, they are likely to be the most important people on the battlefield.
Other humans can afford to be lazy, kislevites lived literally next to Chaos iirc. Elves don't because they spend much more time becoming mages but become much better mages as a result. (Or they just don't bother because they suck).
Because people don't always make sense? It's not impossible to me that you can be regarded as important but as a result of being a guard rather being important in spite of it.
But it does make sense that you'd train your mages to fight well in combat
So then why aren't other mages trained well in combat? Other human mages certainly aren't. Elven mages (including dark elf sorceresses) aren't either. Granted, it's been a while since I played WHFB but unless I'm misremembering there were almost no mages with good combat ability.
What? High Elf mages are normally competent in combat, represente by units like the Loremaster.
And humans have wizards that are capable in combat, they are called Warrior Priests of Sigmar, Ulfric, etc... (Teclis points out that the human "priests" are basically wizards/shamans but by another name, because in warhammer all magical power comes from the warp). And yeah, heroes aren't whole units but as others have pointed out, the lack of fantastic things in fantasy had nothing to do with the feel of the game and more that GW could not made those things in plastic. Just look at 8th. People call it a departure. I believe it was just GW being able to do what they always wanted but could not. I mean demigryphs are too magical but khorne bezerkers mounting demonic cyborg-bulls isnt.
Kislev, a faction with a very old lore about having complete cabals of ice witchs has a ROYAL GUARD of women with ice powers. Is really not that far streetched. Yeah, is not the most typical kind of unit for humans in Fantasy , and not the one I would have used as the first to announce, but as I assume a rare, limied and elite unit it has nothing wrong with it.
If that's the case it fails too, they have tails and scales, and are exothermic. GW couldn't even develop their own design right, the dummies. Oh, and stegadon has only meat-cutting teeth, despite being too slow and bulky to actually be a predator, if we're talking about how unrealistic the Lizardmen are. Fortunately, they're just magical made up things with zero bearing on real animals, so it doesn't matter.
Galas wrote: And humans have wizards that are capable in combat, they are called Warrior Priests of Sigmar, Ulfric, etc... (Teclis points out that the human "priests" are basically wizards/shamans but by another name, because in warhammer all magical power comes from the warp).
They don't use the magic mechanic that other spellcaster do, they can't dispel spells, and even in the lore if they fail at a prayer, it doesn't result in the potentially cataclysmic things that can happen when a mage fail. Clearly they just aren't the same. Not on the tabletop, not in the lore.
Cronch wrote: If that's the case it fails too, they have tails and scales, and are exothermic.
Again you forgot half of the word! You missed the lizard part this time! Lizardman. Lizard. Man. There are two parts in this word, one is lizard and the other is man. Try to remember both at once!!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: You’ve heard of recurve bow? Here is tricurve bow. Is better. Is 50% more curve. Horn and sinew is good for bow; better is horn, sinew, and magic bear snot. Bow is shoot the arrow good.
Yeah, only these are obviously unstrung. If the gals in question end up having proper Hunnic/Tatar/Turkic bows I'd be over the roof, but as things are they visually are the closest to compound bows with no compound elements - with those two usleless spiky things added with no practical or aesthetic value.
I'll be honest, I'm also not a fan of the clothes. The top right image doesn't look too bad, but masks shown in the full picture and middle-right look very strange. Maybe it's just the art but they come across as being far too thin for winter clothes. If anything, they look more like some sort of ice-burkas. Also, apparently a benefit of being a Royal Guard is that you can accumulate an ungodly number of belts and straps. Seriously, imagine having to fasten and tighten all those straps, in freezing weather and whilst wearing mittens.
TL: DR I'm not opposed to the basic concept but the execution seems rather janky. Still, I appreciate that this is just concept art, so hopefully most of these issues will be amended before production.
I think those are supposed to be veils. At least that's the first impression I got from them.
If it's any comfort, I can safely predict the models will be amazing and the rules will have been written on a bar napkin and playtested on the cab on the way to the printers.
If it's any comfort, I can safely predict the models will be amazing and the rules will have been written on a bar napkin and playtested on the cab on the way to the printers.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Kislev was always ruled by a Ice Queen though. So having a cadre of elite ice magic wielding warrior women makes sense thematically, a lot like how Alarielle had a cadre of magic bow wielding handmaidens under her command.
Historically the Handmaidens of the Everqueen were just elite statted Lothern Sea Guard. No magic weapons, just a banner. They didn't get their Flaming Magic Crossbows Of Magical Flames until GW decided to channel its inner WOW.
Jackal90 wrote:If people react this heavily to something that’s actually fluffy and has previously been in their setting before, I want GW to go full on Disney.
I’d love to see a few ice golems to trigger people a bit more.
One thing I’ve never understood is peoples inability to show any reason towards others opinions.
Everyone has a different view on every army (good, bad or neutral)
Only on the internet do you see people bash others because they don’t like the same thing.
It’s almost as if some people don’t realise that everyone has their own opinions on design.
I also like how far some people are willing to go just to put someone down on liking an army that they don’t.
Makes it far easier to just find people of this nature and block them.
The irony of this post is that it does the VERY THING it bitches at others for doing...
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Cronch wrote: Skink lizard is clearly not the same a the lizardmen skink, which seems to be based on a dinosaur body plan, as evident by the veritcal, not splayed wide position of legs.
Did you somehow miss the "man" part of lizardman?
If the skinks were based on dinosaurs they would have feathers, checkmate atheist!
Irbis wrote: not to mention being completely anachronistic for supposed Old World era by only oh, a few hundred years or so
Well Bretonia is anachronistic to the Empire by a few hundred years, so...
Mentlegen324 wrote: I really don't see how this unit supposedly doesn't fit Kislev?
Not about Kislev, it's about the general WFB mood.
Previously there were like 3 or 4 whole units with magic weapons, and those just looked like a slightly more ornate weapons. Similarly, there were very very few units of magic users.
Even simply having characters that were magic users and good fighters used to be very rare, like I know it was the case for vampires but beside that I can't think of any other such character.
Here we have a whole unit of magic user good fighters with magic weapons that looks very flashy magical instead of just more ornate weapons.
For a short time Tzeentch Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions. They fixed it in 7th.
All in all this is simply a thematic retcon, it makes no sense with established lore and serves to do nothing except acclimate WTOW players to AOS and potentially have a playable faction for AOS players. I can see it now, the army formed to fight for the 9th wind of magic, the wind of Ice, also known as the Realm of Brrrrrrrrrrr.
Wait, that name isn't copyright friendly enough. Throw in some random "h"s.
If it's any comfort, I can safely predict the models will be amazing and the rules will have been written on a bar napkin and playtested on the cab on the way to the printers.
You give them too much credit on the playtesting front
Do any of you really expect that they will leave the Old World as it was? Not only will these have their freezing ice swords of destruction, they will also be one toe perched on some icicles
If it's any comfort, I can safely predict the models will be amazing and the rules will have been written on a bar napkin and playtested on the cab on the way to the printers.
Blind, excessive optimism that you think they will be playtested at all.
If it's any comfort, I can safely predict the models will be amazing and the rules will have been written on a bar napkin and playtested on the cab on the way toback from the printers.
Enh, personally? I mostly just don't like the weapons because they're generic fantasy ugly, with the bits and bobs of ice and weird not-especially useful forks and stuff in them (really, its mostly the bow and the right side polearm). Whoever mentioned Skyrim magic stuff, yeah, thats pretty much the vibe I get, and frankly, I kinda don't like the look, especially for factions that aren't chaos. 2nd look, I can kinda see the rest working, honestly, but just "please not that" on the bow/arrow/weird fork thingy.
Edit: Also kinda don't like the expansion of "combat mages" they're going for, given what a big deal armored casting was for stuff like the Tzeench Sorcerer and the general aesthetics, but that barn is long burned and the horse moved to Florida.
Deep down it's still the same old Games Workshop producing the same kind of stuff as it's always done. Garbage in, garbage out. I have zero faith in Old World being any more coherently designed or respectful of its antecedents in terms of visual identity as the frankly insulting clown-convention that is Age of Sigmar.
Has this just turned into a 'ThEy'Re NoT ReSpEcTiN ThE SoUrCe,' and then some angry anti-GW noises?
Like really, out of curiosity since I feel I'm poking the bear here:
GW is the final arbiter on what is and isn't part of the Old World. They will have designs and concepts dating back decades for material that never made it to print or sculpt. To decry them for expanding a niche faction without having any context of the broader picture (no you do not know everything about the Old World, stop assuming you do).
This is an example of designs based on material we never saw before. Kislev was a minor faction that had 1 (and only 1) model release for, which means there must obviously be more to them than just that.. right?
So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: You’ve heard of recurve bow? Here is tricurve bow. Is better. Is 50% more curve. Horn and sinew is good for bow; better is horn, sinew, and magic bear snot. Bow is shoot the arrow good.
Yeah, only these are obviously unstrung. If the gals in question end up having proper Hunnic/Tatar/Turkic bows I'd be over the roof, but as things are they visually are the closest to compound bows with no compound elements - with those two usleless spiky things added with no practical or aesthetic value.
I'll be honest, I'm also not a fan of the clothes. The top right image doesn't look too bad, but masks shown in the full picture and middle-right look very strange. Maybe it's just the art but they come across as being far too thin for winter clothes. If anything, they look more like some sort of ice-burkas. Also, apparently a benefit of being a Royal Guard is that you can accumulate an ungodly number of belts and straps. Seriously, imagine having to fasten and tighten all those straps, in freezing weather and whilst wearing mittens.
TL: DR I'm not opposed to the basic concept but the execution seems rather janky. Still, I appreciate that this is just concept art, so hopefully most of these issues will be amended before production.
I think those are supposed to be veils. At least that's the first impression I got from them.
Here is how a strung and unstrung horse bow looks.
The shape of the unstrung bow clearly matches the bows we're talking about more, minus the bowsring on the front.
The ones you linked have strings on the front side, which is usually done for ease of transportation. When not in use, bows aren't carried around and displayed strung (especially when they are time-worn historical artefacts) as the constant tension would damage and eventually break the bow (you kinda learn this after years of practicing traditional archery).
Aside from that, I really love the clothing and the scimitar thingies, it's just the bident and the bows that I'm not a fan of.
Cronch wrote: If that's the case it fails too, they have tails and scales, and are exothermic.
Again you forgot half of the word! You missed the lizard part this time!
Lizardman. Lizard. Man.
There are two parts in this word, one is lizard and the other is man.
Try to remember both at once!!
I try, but since such a creature never existed in real life, and Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting based on real life, I cannot keep both in mind. It's physically impossible!
Galas wrote: And humans have wizards that are capable in combat, they are called Warrior Priests of Sigmar, Ulfric, etc... (Teclis points out that the human "priests" are basically wizards/shamans but by another name, because in warhammer all magical power comes from the warp).
They don't use the magic mechanic that other spellcaster do, they can't dispel spells, and even in the lore if they fail at a prayer, it doesn't result in the potentially cataclysmic things that can happen when a mage fail. Clearly they just aren't the same. Not on the tabletop, not in the lore.
But yes they are. Teclis points out how the human "priests" are actually people with magic affinity that could be trained as mages. It is pointed out to him that he should shut up his mouth about that if he doesn't want problems, when he creates the Arcane Colleges during Asavar Khul's invasion.
Human priests take their powers from human gods. All gods exist on the warp, just like magic. All magic comes from the warp, just like in 40k Saint Celestine and Demons are both creatures from the warp, and when the necron phylons activate in Cadia both demons, legion of the damned and celestine powers, vanish.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Deep down it's still the same old Games Workshop producing the same kind of stuff as it's always done. Garbage in, garbage out. I have zero faith in Old World being any more coherently designed or respectful of its antecedents in terms of visual identity as the frankly insulting clown-convention that is Age of Sigmar.
You may not like it personally, but there are many people out there who enjoy Age of Sigmar. Opinion =/= Fact
Overread wrote: Wasn't Warhammer Old World pretty generic fantasy for its day?
To be fair, yeah. Its more the specific style of generic fantasy I find ugly. I think its a quick glance, the random bident hooks, and the ice bits looking a lot like "random crystal glowy bits wot so you know its magical". Also had a bad first reaction to the bits on the handles/shafts, but further glance kinda makes it look like its intended to be engraved decoration, and kinda bothers me less as that, especially for an elite unit.
@Dreamchild:
I think those are actually the "cable" part of "cable backed." Recall reading about them in the Traditional Bowyers Bible--basically, the Arctic circle native groups needed something with more "oomph" than the kinda crap and rare wood they had could manage, and they didn't have good sources of more traditional backing, so they literally took up the tension stress that the sinew part of a horsebow takes by basically just tying a strong cable to each end. Kinda cool really!
@Galas:
I know you're being facetious for a point (or possibly just to troll) here, but:
Mostly I feel its an aesthetic thing? They're not slavish imitations of real life, but they also feel much less cartoony for lack of a better word than a lot of the newer stuff. Even if they aren't actually all that much more functional, the simpler and plainer design language feels less over the top I guess? I dunno, hard to put it into words, especially as somebody who does like a bit of sillyness in his Warhammer. Less "it didn't exist exactly like this in real life!" and more Star Wars vs. Flash Gordon "lived in" or "down to earth" presentation? (or possibly just the line between effective parody and inability to be taken seriously, and which is likewise movable from person to person)
BroodSpawn wrote: Has this just turned into a 'ThEy'Re NoT ReSpEcTiN ThE SoUrCe,' and then some angry anti-GW noises?
Cute.
This is an example of designs based on material we never saw before. Kislev was a minor faction that had 1 (and only 1) model release for, which means there must obviously be more to them than just that.. right?
The Ice Queen, winged lancers and horse archers have been around since 4th edition, I think the Kossars, Gryphon Legion and Tzar Boris were only added in 6th. In between, they had a full armylist in Citadel Journal 14-16. They had a Mordheim warband with model support. A Warmaster roster and miniature range. Plus a huge amount of background in the RPGs, though I'm admittedly not very familiar with those.
Of course, you are right that GW can decide to go in whatever direction they want: expand certain areas, rewrite others. All some people are saying is that they are or aren't fans of the chosen direction as suggested by these previews. I'm still looking forward to new plastic Winged Lancers and Streltsi, if those end up seeing the light of day. I'd leave the Tzarina and her magic bodyguard at home as I prefer non-special characters, and a setting in which magic is only wielded by a few.
So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?
BroodSpawn wrote: Has this just turned into a 'ThEy'Re NoT ReSpEcTiN ThE SoUrCe,' and then some angry anti-GW noises?
Like really, out of curiosity since I feel I'm poking the bear here:
GW is the final arbiter on what is and isn't part of the Old World. They will have designs and concepts dating back decades for material that never made it to print or sculpt. To decry them for expanding a niche faction without having any context of the broader picture (no you do not know everything about the Old World, stop assuming you do).
This is an example of designs based on material we never saw before. Kislev was a minor faction that had 1 (and only 1) model release for, which means there must obviously be more to them than just that.. right?
So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?
"Designs based on materials we've never saw before."
What? There's nothing in the article to suggest that. These are designs done for the new game. Don't act like GW's going back to its old archives, dusting off art that they never got around to using back in 6th Edition.
Here's the thing. Kislev already had a pretty good faction aesthetic. Yes, it was an allied faction that wasn't meant to be taken on its own, but it had a visual presence that was wholly distinct from the Empire at the time of release that "Kislev" was pretty unmistakable.
This new art? Doesn't match. It looks more like a mid-tier armor set from WoW: Wrath of the Lich King than Kislev.
Also, please point out where anyone's saying that we don't want anything new ever. We definitely don't want a return to how things were with WHFB. GW's decisions from late 7th into 8th edition - bigger units, bigger monsters, bigger spells - killed the game. But what we don't want is a gaslighting of what the Old World was.
I also happened to notice how this new unit is supposed to be good with both "bow and blade," but there's no mention of the old Kossar models (and that was their whole idea, a formed unit with bows and great axes).
@Galas:
I know you're being facetious for a point (or possibly just to troll) here, but:
Mostly I feel its an aesthetic thing? They're not slavish imitations of real life, but they also feel much less cartoony for lack of a better word than a lot of the newer stuff. Even if they aren't actually all that much more functional, the simpler and plainer design language feels less over the top I guess? I dunno, hard to put it into words, especially as somebody who does like a bit of sillyness in his Warhammer. Less "it didn't exist exactly like this in real life!" and more Star Wars vs. Flash Gordon "lived in" or "down to earth" presentation? (or possibly just the line between effective parody and inability to be taken seriously, and which is likewise movable from person to person)
What?
I don't know. I see this Ice Archers as being in line with Total War expansion of bretonnia roster or the phenomenal Vampire Coast. Lets be real here: Had GW done the vampire coast units , people would be calling it over the top nonsense (And most of it was allready done like the colossus). Zombies riding crabs?! LOL! So warcraft-like amirite?
I have no problem with the Amazon Brigade as a trope, but these don't look like I imagine Kislev's anything to look, much less its royal guard. The Kossite Woodsmen look more Kislevite than this, and they're a Warmachine unit.
BroodSpawn wrote: "Designs based on materials we've never saw before."
What? There's nothing in the article to suggest that. These are designs done for the new game. Don't act like GW's going back to its old archives, dusting off art that they never got around to using back in 6th Edition.
Here's the thing. Kislev already had a pretty good faction aesthetic. Yes, it was an allied faction that wasn't meant to be taken on its own, but it had a visual presence that was wholly distinct from the Empire at the time of release that "Kislev" was pretty unmistakable.
This new art? Doesn't match. It looks more like a mid-tier armor set from WoW: Wrath of the Lich King than Kislev.
So then why aren't other mages trained well in combat? Other human mages certainly aren't. Elven mages (including dark elf sorceresses) aren't either. Granted, it's been a while since I played WHFB but unless I'm misremembering there were almost no mages with good combat ability.
Spoiler:
Back in the day Mages used to get stuck in quite frequently.
It was only really as the game shifted to featuring units/models with LOTS of attacks and the game changed from being about breaking units and making them flee to carving through the opposition in a much more video game /"cinematic" style that they moved to being much less useful.
Might've changed the rules about who could have/wield magic weapons too ?
but, again as the game changed, they too often wound up being little more than someone who did d6 or so S4 hits to a unit or just being dispel scroll caddys/enemy magic counters.
.... You had a Level 25 wizard suitably supported by a decent unit and you could put up a good fight.
Overread wrote: Wasn't Warhammer Old World pretty generic fantasy for its day?
No, not really imo. It was a big pot-pourri of various tropes, that's for sure. They managed to cram in basically every different vampire tropes, from the animalistic beasts to the corrupt aristocrat, through Vampire lignages, for instance. But the Empire is quite far from the generic fantasy faction of the time, being more renaissance, with firearms and hats and padded clothes...
BroodSpawn wrote: So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates)..
Nice strawman you built there.
Cronch wrote: I try, but since such a creature never existed in real life, and Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting based on real life, I cannot keep both in mind. It's physically impossible!
Well, I'm sorry for your limitations.
Galas wrote: But yes they are. Teclis points out how the human "priests" are actually people with magic affinity that could be trained as mages.
Could they? Maybe. Are they mage? Obviously not.
That's like saying a farmer is a warrior because he could be trained as one lol.
Galas wrote: just like in 40k Saint Celestine and Demons are both creatures from the warp, and when the necron phylons activate in Cadia both demons, legion of the damned and celestine powers, vanish.
That's official lore from Fall of Cadia? Damn it sucks.
They dedicate many long years, sometimes decades, to studying arcane tomes and mystical scrolls, but only a fool would mistake their frail, scholarly appearance for weakness. Battle Wizards can hurl bolts of fire and lightning at their foes, confound them with terrifying illusions or snuff out their life-force like a man blowing out a candle.
Sounds like they aren't strong martially but make up for it with using spells instead of weapons. Which is, like, exactly what Vipoid is saying about them.
The Ice Guard are both strong martially and using spells to enhance their weapons.
Why not go directly for spells, instead of spell-enhanced weapons?
Galas wrote: And humans have wizards that are capable in combat, they are called Warrior Priests of Sigmar, Ulfric, etc... (Teclis points out that the human "priests" are basically wizards/shamans but by another name, because in warhammer all magical power comes from the warp).
They don't use the magic mechanic that other spellcaster do, they can't dispel spells, and even in the lore if they fail at a prayer, it doesn't result in the potentially cataclysmic things that can happen when a mage fail. Clearly they just aren't the same. Not on the tabletop, not in the lore.
But yes they are. Teclis points out how the human "priests" are actually people with magic affinity that could be trained as mages. It is pointed out to him that he should shut up his mouth about that if he doesn't want problems, when he creates the Arcane Colleges during Asavar Khul's invasion.
Human priests take their powers from human gods. All gods exist on the warp, just like magic. All magic comes from the warp, just like in 40k Saint Celestine and Demons are both creatures from the warp, and when the necron phylons activate in Cadia both demons, legion of the damned and celestine powers, vanish.
He is probably right but Teclis is not by any stretch of the imagination infaliable
Cronch wrote: Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting
Citation Needed, especially since we're talking about a setting where literal physical magic(Warpstone) literally falls from the sky because there's both a comet and a moon made out of it.
I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.
Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.
Cronch wrote: Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting
Citation Needed, especially since we're talking about a setting where literal physical magic(Warpstone) literally falls from the sky because there's both a comet and a moon made out of it.
Very much citation needed. Especially if you count outside the Empire?
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.
Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.
All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.
I try, but since such a creature never existed in real life, and Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting based on real life, I cannot keep both in mind. It's physically impossible!
Warhammer Fantasy was never low magic. We had entire armies of undead on the regular, rampaging ogres, a huge vortex of literal magic and every army has access to mythical beasts and as said earlier a giant freaking actively malevolent rock orbiting the planet.
I don't know what type of rose tinted glass you super glued on, but WHFB was never low magic in any capacity.
I try, but since such a creature never existed in real life, and Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting based on real life, I cannot keep both in mind. It's physically impossible!
Warhammer Fantasy was never low magic. We had entire armies of undead on the regular, rampaging ogres, a huge vortex of literal magic and every army has access to mythical beasts and as said earlier a giant freaking actively malevolent rock orbiting the planet.
I don't know what type of rose tinted glass you super glued on, but WHFB was never low magic in any capacity.
A malevolent rock that every certain number of years caused people to shelter down and defend their homes because zombies, daemons, werewolves, and mutants were roaming around in force.
Some people use 'low magic' to mean 'grim, gritty and/or street level.'
Its a pointless argument that will just derail the thread.
A malevolent rock that every certain number of years caused people to shelter down and defend their homes because zombies, daemons, werewolves, and mutants were roaming around in force.
Well, every year actually. Geheimnisnacht was a big deal in the Imperial calendar.
Plus various warpstone meteors at essential random, which kicked off some of the later WFRP adventures if I remember correctly (the softback books after the big Empire in Flames series- or I'm thinking of scenario book in between the Doomstones campaign, which is revolves around artifacts of great power).
Voss wrote: Some people use 'low magic' to mean 'grim, gritty and/or street level.'
Its a pointless argument that will just derail the thread.
Not our fault people use an incorrect definition not held as convention.
Yeah, don't care. We all know where that bickering will go, because the arguments are exactly same every time it happens. Just ignore it and move on, for once, quibbling about definitions rather than the possibilities of Kislev would definitely be 'your fault.'
I try, but since such a creature never existed in real life, and Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting based on real life, I cannot keep both in mind. It's physically impossible!
Warhammer Fantasy was never low magic. We had entire armies of undead on the regular, rampaging ogres, a huge vortex of literal magic and every army has access to mythical beasts and as said earlier a giant freaking actively malevolent rock orbiting the planet.
I don't know what type of rose tinted glass you super glued on, but WHFB was never low magic in any capacity.
Half this thread is people telling everyone how nonmagical WHFB was, and how ice weapons don't fit with the realistic depiction of semi-historical Empire and Lizardmen. So I have to believe them.
And what 5he Old World might have been in its beginning, changed as it went on anyway.
(I’d say Generic fantasy I’d accept, but Low not so much).
By the time Lizardmen joined it had changed much that it wasn’t based on our world, and certainly not our worlds dinosaurs.
(More likely taken from the many many dinosaur/lizard people from XYZ fantasies of whatever ness, all of which are lizard humanoids, it’s just that. Not history, or alternates. Just lizard people.
My point being, I doubt they thought, I wonder what dinosaurs would have looked like if they evolved to people, but we won’t put feathers on, as it’s possible/probable dinosaurs had feathers in the end.
It was just a fantasy setting by then and they had a n idea for a new race. Not the next evolution of alternate earth or anything like that..
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.
Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.
Amazing, isn't it?
*single piece of concept art released*
THIS GAME WILL BE AWFUL THROW EVERYTHING IN THE BIN
I’m trying to think of even a few aspects of warhammer that aren’t weird, wonderful or use magic in some way.
Also, comparing training a priest as a wizard to making a farmer a warrior is kind of a bad choice.
Anyone can be trained to use a weapon, march, wear armour etc, it’s just a matter of time and training.
Training a wizard in the old world is different.
If they don’t posses any magic to begin with, it’s not possible.
They need inherent abilities to wield magic, something that no end of training will ever provide.
It’s like saying that you can teach a cat to fly.
Unless it’s got wings, it won’t happen. (Unless you’re owner happens to be Alinity)
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.
Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.
All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.
It's not change, per se. It's about an expansive IP encompassing multiple mediums, and individuals interfacing with said IP in different ways and developing their own experiences and headcanons.
Actually, I think I've figured out what's bothering me about the concept art.
Not only do I not think it looks like what we've come to expect of Kislev, but what the concept reminds me of is the Abzan from MtG's Tarkir-block, who were loosly based on the Ottoman Empire.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.
Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.
All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.
It's not change, per se. It's about an expansive IP encompassing multiple mediums, and individuals interfacing with said IP in different ways and developing their own experiences and headcanons.
This. Everyone has their own particular perception of what they consider to be the "gold standard" for WHFB. For me, this would be roughly 6th-7th ed. material and sculpts, so I hope they will emulate that particular era. It's not an objective study of what constitutes the aesthetic of the setting, as it has changed drastically over time. People are also not against any change, but specifically against change into what AoS has turned out to be.
All in all this is simply a thematic retcon, it makes no sense with established lore and serves to do nothing except acclimate WTOW players to AOS and potentially have a playable faction for AOS players. I can see it now, the army formed to fight for the 9th wind of magic, the wind of Ice, also known as the Realm of Brrrrrrrrrrr.
Wait, that name isn't copyright friendly enough. Throw in some random "h"s.
In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.
Absolutely and I agree with that. I started playing WHFB in 6th and that is be far my favorite edition and aesthetic for the game. But its not 2000 anymore and if GW is going to be putting out new stuff for this little project, it will be done in such a way as to protect their IP.
That's just the way the corporate world works now. GW will not design and produce anything that another company can come in a poach by making cheaper alternatives. Hell, due to 9th age there are PLENTY of companies making miniatures that I can use for WHFB if I want.
Whatever GW comes up with will probably disappoint anyone who want to go back 20 years when it comes to aesthetic. I, unlike others here, don't have any disillusions about that.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.
Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.
All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.
It's not change, per se. It's about an expansive IP encompassing multiple mediums, and individuals interfacing with said IP in different ways and developing their own experiences and headcanons.
So in other words, absolutely no one is going to like this release because everyone has their own headcanon and history and no one is going to be pleased. Sounds about right then.
You mean those Central Asian steppe nomads who settled down on the eastern borders of an existing European empire and developed into an agrarian and city-based society? Those Ottomans? Sounds about right as a model for Kislev to me.
Jackal90 wrote: Also, comparing training a priest as a wizard to making a farmer a warrior is kind of a bad choice.
Anyone can be trained to use a weapon, march, wear armour etc, it’s just a matter of time and training.
Not true.
If you are sick or injured, you may never make a real warrior.
You likely will have troubles being a good farmer too, so the comparison works.
You mean those Central Asian steppe nomads who settled down on the eastern borders of an existing European empire and developed into an agrarian and city-based society? Those Ottomans? Sounds about right as a model for Kislev to me.
I'd expect Kislev to look and -sound more like the Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks than the Ottomans, but that's just moi.
Mangod wrote: Actually, I think I've figured out what's bothering me about the concept art.
Not only do I not think it looks like what we've come to expect of Kislev, but what the concept reminds me of is the Abzan from MtG's Tarkir-block, who were loosly based on the Ottoman Empire.
Yeah, that's what I thought too.
The concept art looks less Russian and more Middle Eastern.
One new unit that’s in the early stages of development is set in the Ice Court – the seat of the ruling Tsar or Tsarina. Known as the Ice Guard, they’re an elite fighting formation of warrior women, equally skilled with bow and blade. But where they differ significantly from the other Kislevite units we’ve seen in the past is that they’re able to channel the elemental magic of their realm in a similar manner to their Ice Queen – the most powerful practitioner of this unique form of sorcery. Here are some awesome pieces of concept art for the Ice Guard, courtesy of Forge World’s Mark Bedford.
I adore this design! for the uniforms themselves they feel like they fit in with established Kislev aesthetic. The swords look awesome and ornate looking witch makes sense for a elite unit. The only thing that feels wrong is the design for the bows. They look too busy for human bows. They just needed fancy looking bows with engravings. These ones are so spiky and over designed they almost look like some sort of Dark Elf long Bow.
I like the design, but I think its quite the deviation from what's established for Kislev. I feel like it kinda misses part of why people like the setting. Imagine if when they started the Horus Heresy, they completely redesigned the power armor patterns... while I'm sure it would have been great either way when you establish a new aesthetic you're throwing out half of what makes that faction. I think it'll be important to see how all the different factions end up visually distinctive from one another.
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