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GaroRobe wrote:
Hmm...
A Forgeworld guy is doing the art. I hope it's plastic models, with occasionally heroes from FW, like Necromunda. But more plastic models than Necromunda.

'Forgeworld' doesn't have the same meaning it used to.
Everything 40K and AoS is under the main studio now, while 'FW' is basically HH, Specialist Games and Middle-Earth, and this.

Its public knowledge, but GW never really made a big deal about it. The interview with Hewitt mentions the reorganization.

Old World was partly low fantasy because way back when it started you couldn't make huge dragons and steamships and phoenix with riders cause the ywere all somewhat big. Heck that's why all their dragons were very serpentine and stick-thin - because they were all cast from metal.

Plastic makes a lot more things possible.



Heck anyone who has read the Gotrek tails the Chaos forces attacking one of the Kislev cities had rolling living demonic siege engines.
Higher fantasy stuff was there it was just rarer than AoS has it. Heck don't forget High Elves had a sky chariot pulled by eagles; were flying on phoenix and had mages balanced on rocks.


The Kislev queen certainly had magical powers of ice. It was oft referenced and, again, appears in the Gotrek stories from that era. The Old World had magic, it had powerful magics; just that they were rarer. However they will appear more in the tabletop game because that's what it always focused on.








Also GW/FW won't do a model heavy rank and file game in resin at 25-35mm scale. It would be nuts. If its going to be square bases on movement trays then we sort of already know it will be plastic. Just like Adepticus Titanicus; Aeronautica and Necromunda. With a few heroes/uniques in resin .

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
That would be 3rd Edition to 6th edition, and it was awesome.

I too hope for the Old World in all its bleak, normal glory. The old world of Geheimnisnacht, before Gotrek was a terrifying, end of the world surviving monster. Goblins and peasants stabbing each other in the mud with crude spears while the corrupt nobles pretend that they're fighting for the Empire and that half of them aren't secretly in a Slanneshi cult.

Gotrek was terrifying even then and that bit about "corrupt nobles" is just silly fanwank at best.

Oh, come on. When Bill King wrote Geheimnisnacht his original plan was that Gotrek was going to die, but he liked him and Felix so let him survive. He was Just A Dwarf Slayer. An insight into how weird Dwarf culture as a whole was.

And read Beasts in Velvet or anything else "Jack Yeovil" put out. It's very apparent that the ruling class of the Empire is corrupt as all get out - not necessarily to Chaos, but to the perfectly normal human traits of greed and not giving a monkeys about the lower classes. Alright, half of them being cultists is admittedly hyperbolic, but you could never be entirely sure that it wasn't true. And Bretonia was at least as bad - outside of the Knights the entire country was regarded as fairly backward.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Graphite wrote:

The world which Mordheim fitted into perfectly. Where magic existed, but was rare and MASSIVELY distrusted.

Maybe if you lived in the Empire where Witch Hunters and religious zealots shouted about magic being awful all the time. Bretonnia and the Elves were a totally different situation.

Granted with the Elves. Horrid, pointy eared.... But your average Bretonian peasant is going to have seen the same number of Magic Swords of Magicness as he will have seen spaceships (The Star Boat by Steve Baxter says hi!). And he's not going to trust it. Just because it's legal, which in the case of Bretonnia means that "The very wealthy knights who think they're noble and literally own you like having some magic about" doesn't mean you like it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Graphite wrote:

Where the average person would... live an average person life. Cutting down trees (that weren't likely to be some mad thing, just trees)

Athel Loren and the Asrai say "hi".

If the average woodcutter rocks up to Athel Loren with an axe and a speculative look in his eye, he deserves all he gets. Someone going to the Drakwald forest to get a bit of wood on the other hand should expect that the most dangerous thing that he's likely to face is accidentally hitting himself with an axe, rather than every other tree trying to bite him.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
baking bread, running their merchant business.
A world with superstitions just like ours, except that lots of those superstitions are really real and might just come howling out of the forest one day to eat you. If you're walking through the woods and suddenly everything starts looking like an Ian Miller painting, you've gone too far and you're in trouble.

But you probably won't meet any of this stuff unless you're actually a soldier. A fairly normal civilisation in a world with a lot of conflict.

Most of what you're talking about had nothing to do with 3rd to 6th edition. It was lore stuff. Stuff that exists in AoS as well. You just actually have to read about it rather than relying on 1d4chan or thirdhand accounts from people with an axe to grind over the setting.

Well, the main thing it has to do with 3rd and 6th edition was that they both happened at around the same time. But for all that they're now fleshing out "normal life" in AoS, and that's a good thing, the majority of the Realms ACTUALLY FELL TO CHAOS. There's magic stuff EVERYWHERE. It isn't a setting where you could have characters who don't believe that this Fantastical Mad Stuff will affect them. Because it does, constantly.

(I don't get this stuff off 1d4Chan. I get it off Stormcast. This is the line of thinking I'm picking up from GW themselves)

8th edition WHFB was pretty much AoS-level magic in all but name (and even then--remember the Storm of Magic supplement?).

The detail on those imply it'll be a 28mm game and not 15mm Warmaster or whatever.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Ho boy. So it's really happening. Empire civil war. Human subfactions with different hat feathers that will only sell to 7 hypergrognards.

Yeah, I'm sure the appeal is limited exclusively to people who used to play WHFB and do not play AoS. NO ONE will buy them for use in AoS, KoW, Conquest, Frostgrave, or any other game. And not a single current AoS player will be interested in playing both games. Truly, this will be an incredibly niche release, even more than Horus Heresy, which was so unpopular it became the majority of FW releases. *eyeroll*

A box of humans infighting, with follow up releases at the tempo of Necromunda or AT, is not enough to retake the crown of the premier rank and file fantasy game, not even with accounting for GW battered wife syndrome.

Alright, cool, it's not for you, Blackfang, we get it.

Doesn't mean it's not going to do perfectly fine, but yeah, whatever.

Being as its years away, they could make the next Warhammer Quest game based on The Old World to kick things off and to put a spin on things, have the bad guys as the explorers, for a change. Bit like Arthus in Warcraft 3 searching for Frostmorne or Thanos in Avengers trying to collect the powers of wind, fire, water, earth and heart.

That aside, the Ice Guard designs are very nice.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The detail on those imply it'll be a 28mm game and not 15mm Warmaster or whatever.

There's some amazing 15mm stuff out there. CAD sculpting pretty much nullified the scale-limits. But also yes, i don't believe it'll be 15mm.

As to magic, Kislev wasn't really well detailed, but it was implied in what little fluff there was that it was good deal closer to "old magic" than Empire. It's not shocking to have an elite unit drawing from the Tzarina's lore.

Kislev? That's taken me from meh to intrigued. At the very least it could provide some good fodder for Free city's in AoS.

 Londinium wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Kislev dudes (and dudettes) with stahlrim weapons and ice magic sounds like the Old World is getting Age-of-Sigmarified.

Kislev had ice magic in 6th. It's not new.

In one of the past editions the Ice Queen of Kislev was pretty good!

(I was going to say "pretty cool" but...you know.)

Voss wrote:
Oh. This is potentially clever.

Do this right, and they can do some Total Warhammer 3 crossover and launch the Kislev faction off the back of some tasty, tasty cross promotion.


---
I do hope people remember that the Kislev 'Ice Tsarina' and Lore of Ice Magic predates Frozen by a decade or more.
I'd expect 'but Frozen did it first' from people unfamiliar with the game, but it sounds like 'Warhammer is just copying Warcraft' complaints from people who should be familiar with the setting.

Neither did it first.



I'm more interested in this now that Kislev is involved.

I like the design of the armors and the helmets. The weapons not that much, not because I think they are too magical. I just don't like them.

Weapon concepts definitely look more Warcraft than Warhammer.

But hey. Concept is a concept, therefore not the final product. Heck, at the risk of bringing everyone down, it’s possible this unit never sees the light of day at this very early stage.

Hah! I like to imagine that the person who pitched Kislev at the office or indeed, whomever green lit the project, has children that are really into that Disney film... whereupon being forced to sit through it during 'family time' for the umpteenth wet and miserable Sunday afternoon lead their mind to wander into how to turn the whole thing into Warhammer.

Either way, I'm not complaining. Kislev, yes please! Bring it on! I can't wait to see where GW go with this! It's already looking pretty fine, weaponry looks very Blizzard, not a problem for myself yet the concept for the ladies looks pretty great so far.

Hope the Bear Cavalry looks better than Thunderwolves, though. Please!

so icy mc ice warriors wolfy wolfs WHFB edition ... Just great.... Just... great.... Why cant they leave all the juiced to the gills magical stuff to AOS...

Obviously like my opinion..

...what?

I think this will be more of a restrained (Ha!) WFB version of things, not the 'Dial It Up To 11' AoS style of stuff.

 Alpharius wrote:
...what?

I think this will be more of a restrained (Ha!) WFB version of things, not the 'Dial It Up To 11' AoS style of stuff.

A whole unit of human warriors channeling magic to create ice-encrusted mystical weapons is a pretty high number on the dial. If you presented these to an Everyday Gamer type who doesn't follow all the online stuff and told them it was a new AoS unit, I'd wager the vast majority would think that entirely plausible.

The more restrained WHFB version of the concept would push their aesthetic a bit more towards Kievan Rus palace guards or the like and give them weapons that looked fairly normal(ie, like ornate but otherwise mundane swords, bows etc) and depict any icy enchantments with a light frosty paint effect or something along those lines.

At best, assuming they make it through to production looking like those concepts, they'll be Kislev's "8th Ed-style" OTT unit like Demigryph Knights or the Skycutter & Sparklepheonixes and the rest of the army will retain the classic style where a fat dude riding a bear was the most outlandish thing on the table.

 Alpharius wrote:
...what?

I think this will be more of a restrained (Ha!) WFB version of things, not the 'Dial It Up To 11' AoS style of stuff.

We can only hope at the moment.

I love how this is too much for people:


Notice: the weapon tips/blades are not actually made of ice

There's just a layer of ice around them. Didn't hear anyone complaining about wizards that could provide a flame enchantment to weapons before or Empire fire-mages running around all the time with their swords and staves ablaze, but now it's over the top?

Can I get some clarity on when exactly WHFB (the "old world") was gritty fantasy? It seems like a bizarre opinion that could only be possible with cherry-picking in any edition

 Overread wrote:
Old World was partly low fantasy because way back when it started you couldn't make huge dragons and steamships and phoenix with riders cause the ywere all somewhat big. Heck that's why all their dragons were very serpentine and stick-thin - because they were all cast from metal.

Plastic makes a lot more things possible.



Heck anyone who has read the Gotrek tails the Chaos forces attacking one of the Kislev cities had rolling living demonic siege engines.
Higher fantasy stuff was there it was just rarer than AoS has it. Heck don't forget High Elves had a sky chariot pulled by eagles; were flying on phoenix and had mages balanced on rocks.


The Kislev queen certainly had magical powers of ice. It was oft referenced and, again, appears in the Gotrek stories from that era. The Old World had magic, it had powerful magics; just that they were rarer. However they will appear more in the tabletop game because that's what it always focused on.








Also GW/FW won't do a model heavy rank and file game in resin at 25-35mm scale. It would be nuts. If its going to be square bases on movement trays then we sort of already know it will be plastic. Just like Adepticus Titanicus; Aeronautica and Necromunda. With a few heroes/uniques in resin .

Not even counting the ship battle game that had flying magical tzeentch fortresses as ships and gigantic floating cities for dark elves. That also had Dragons on Elven ships.. Oh and the dwarven submarines and Greenskin ships with full on grabby mechanics! People who say this has been a low fantasy setting is just cherry picking.

I can see the argument that WHFB was low fantasy - although clearly not all the time.

The fluff was typically rooted in a place - i.e. the old world and friends. You had characters doing things for human reasons in places that were broadly comprehensible. So you can quibble over aspects of Dwarf, Goblin and Skaven society - but its not unreasonable that they have been fighting over Karak Eight Peaks forever. It wasn't *purely* because the dwarfs were after magic god-blood beans, the skaven were evil yes yes and the goblins had felt the call of the bad moon.

It was more these people are warlords, they want to defend or conquer territory. Rather than magical mumbo jumble one of the gods wills it, none of these realms have any especial meaning which you find in AoS.

But then I find some of the arguments in the thread just weird. I can appreciate you want to dig out those thousands of points of WHFB models you got 20+ years ago, but from GW's perspective there is very little reason to do that. They want to sell new stuff - not just a couple of rule books.

Maybe unpopular but I could see a human based game, where the bulk of units are the same, but you get faction bonuses and specific units, and then maybe moving into other non-human factions if its popular being interesting. It doesn't seem to make much sense running it alongside AoS otherwise. Also wouldn't obviously explain why they'd need to wait years if its just essentially 9th edition WHFB.

 eohall wrote:
Can I get some clarity on when exactly WHFB (the "old world") was gritty fantasy? It seems like a bizarre opinion that could only be possible with cherry-picking in any edition

It's not, lol.

Original early 80s-GW made random miniatures for all the classic super-high-fantasy stuff like LoTR and D&D, etc..

Than they made a little tabletopgame that could make use of all those miniatures (hence why the super-super-old Greater Daemon of Khorne looked like a Balrog, etc..) and kept adding more spells and vampires and Lizardmen and all kinds of super-high-fantasy tropes on top of the standard markers of high fantasy like Elves and Dwarves for over 3 decades, before they pulled End Times.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Ho boy. So it's really happening. Empire civil war. Human subfactions with different hat feathers that will only sell to 7 hypergrognards.

Yeah, I'm sure the appeal is limited exclusively to people who used to play WHFB and do not play AoS. NO ONE will buy them for use in AoS, KoW, Conquest, Frostgrave, or any other game. And not a single current AoS player will be interested in playing both games. Truly, this will be an incredibly niche release, even more than Horus Heresy, which was so unpopular it became the majority of FW releases. *eyeroll*

A box of humans infighting, with follow up releases at the tempo of Necromunda or AT, is not enough to retake the crown of the premier rank and file fantasy game, not even with accounting for GW battered wife syndrome.

Apparently I'm super niche then. I'm personally thrilled that we will be getting new Empire models (which who knows....may even have AoS rules for Freeguild) that I can use to kitbash for Mordheim and AoS....as I'm sure others are, and all the Inq28 folks will be super excited as well.

HIgh fantasy elements such as flaming swords were always part of Warhammer. I don't think flaming bows look goods, but it's not an unreasonable step, and neither is ice-coated magic weapons for characters, and at a stretch even elite guard units. Even human ones.

The shift away from styles grounded in historical garb and weaponry is another matter: The Kislevite concept sketches are fine, but lack the grounded-in-history look of all Warhammer humans bar Chaos worshippers. They do not draw on historical Russian and Polish styles as much as they would have done during, say, 6th edition.

Things like World of Warcraft has certainly had an impact. This trend started back in 7th editions, with the diminishing influence of the Perry brothers (who worked on Lotr instead).

(This is not a complaint, just an impassionate observation.)

Someone must have seen the mantic ice elves and thought they could steal some of those sales

 gorgon wrote:

Voss wrote:
Oh. This is potentially clever.

Do this right, and they can do some Total Warhammer 3 crossover and launch the Kislev faction off the back of some tasty, tasty cross promotion.


---
I do hope people remember that the Kislev 'Ice Tsarina' and Lore of Ice Magic predates Frozen by a decade or more.
I'd expect 'but Frozen did it first' from people unfamiliar with the game, but it sounds like 'Warhammer is just copying Warcraft' complaints from people who should be familiar with the setting.

Neither did it first.

Well, obviously.
Just trying to nip some of the immediate kneejerk reactions in the bud.

I mean, it's sensible they don't look the same as 6th ed. 6th ed had much different style to 5th ed, and 8th ed had different look to all previous. People with nostalgia goggles tend to view their "honeymoon" edition as the One True Warhammer, but the game always changed in look and even how grimdark it was. Remember those cutesy cartoon pictures in 5th ed rulebook? Was it any less Warhamer to the po-faced woodcut style of 6th ed?

Norse Dwarfs... that would definitely get me interested.. proper Norse Dwarfs.. haven'y been touched by GW in a long time and would give a different look for dwarf collectors without treading on the oldworld dwarf collections..