Warhammer The Old World OT chat.

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**BobtheInquisitor**

You’ve heard of recurve bow? Here is tricurve bow. Is better. Is 50% more curve. Horn and sinew is good for bow; better is horn, sinew, and magic bear snot. Bow is shoot the arrow good.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Who thinks that Norse Dwarves are Chaos Dwarves by another name?

Londinium wrote:
Kislev had ice magic in 6th. It's not new.

"Ice magic" is different from "whole unit that creates/enhance their weapons with flashy magic".

Kanluwen wrote:
Didn't hear anyone complaining about wizards that could provide a flame enchantment to weapons before or Empire fire-mages running around all the time with their swords and staves ablaze, but now it's over the top?

Wizards are characters, very specific individuals that mastered magic.
Elite warrior unit isn't a character.
I mean, ASoIaF isn't very high fantasy (they do have some magic and dragons but it's not the meat of the series), and even they have flaming swords. "Fake" ones at first, and real ones later.

Can anyone name a unit from WFB that had all magical weapons? I think there were maybe some elves units (they don't count, they are elves) and maybe some of the more elite Bretonnia knights, like Grail Knights. And those Grail Knights models are just wielding slightly more blinged weapons, right?

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Who thinks that Norse Dwarves are Chaos Dwarves by another name?

Londinium wrote:
Kislev had ice magic in 6th. It's not new.

"Ice magic" is different from "whole unit that creates/enhance their weapons with flashy magic".

Kanluwen wrote:
Didn't hear anyone complaining about wizards that could provide a flame enchantment to weapons before or Empire fire-mages running around all the time with their swords and staves ablaze, but now it's over the top?

Wizards are characters, very specific individuals that mastered magic.
Elite warrior unit isn't a character.
I mean, ASoIaF isn't very high fantasy (they do have some magic and dragons but it's not the meat of the series), and even they have flaming swords. "Fake" ones at first, and real ones later.

Can anyone name a unit from WFB that had all magical weapons? I think there were maybe some elves units (they don't count, they are elves) and maybe some of the more elite Bretonnia knights, like Grail Knights. And those Grail Knights models are just wielding slightly more blinged weapons, right?

Chaos Knights, Ensorcelled Weapons
Grave Guard

**Cronch**

"Ice magic" is different from "whole unit that creates/enhance their weapons with flashy magic".

How? Why is making an ice wall fine, but making few much smaller icicles to coat weapons out of question? This is Tzarina's Leibguard, drawn from all across her empire. There should be enough low-power wizards/shamanesses to fill it out. We're not talking about every soldier in the army being a mage.

**Snrub**

I really hope the keep the AoS aesthetic away from the Old World.

Stuff like magic ice bows are fine in moderation (i.e- the Kislev Royal Guard) but if we get Kislev scouts called Frostcloak Tundrasteppers with Fleshbane Ice-daggers and Blizzardwrath Shardbows, then i'll lose all interest. (And i'm sure I wouldn't be the only one)

**dogfender**

Old old world has stuff the old world didn’t have. Begs the question that should the armies of old have had these new ideas to flesh out the background the timeline and history would have significantly changed.
I’m happy for new things I just wish they kept it grounded in the reality they already established.

**silverstu**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Who thinks that Norse Dwarves are Chaos Dwarves by another name?

[

Nope- totally different-always have been- wash your mouth out for even saying it... Chaos Dwarfs are from the East not the North..Norse Dwarfs had their place in the lore - largest Karak was Kraka Drak and they fought against chaos...

**GaroRobe**

silverstu wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Who thinks that Norse Dwarves are Chaos Dwarves by another name?

[

Nope- totally different-always have been- wash your mouth out for even saying it... Chaos Dwarfs are from the East not the North..Norse Dwarfs had their place in the lore - largest Karak was Kraka Drak and they fought against chaos...

This. I'm pretty sure they may have been a bit more gruff and barbaric, but if I recall correctly, Thorgrim was able to reestablish ties with them

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Chaos Knights, Ensorcelled Weapons
Grave Guard

Thx.
Both weapons look mundane if overly ornamented no?

silverstu wrote:
Nope- totally different-always have been- wash your mouth out for even saying it... Chaos Dwarfs are from the East not the North..Norse Dwarfs had their place in the lore - largest Karak was Kraka Drak and they fought against chaos...

Sorry my bad!
So that's why the hobgobelin mercenaries were from the east too!

**Chamberlain**

I read the article and these aren't grunts. These ice themed weapons are being wielding by the royal guard. Like a unit of warrior ice witches that guard the Tsarina and occasionally go to war.

if warrior ice witches from Kislev are what they are leading with, i highly doubt old world is going to be about making 9th edition with everyones fav armies.

**ZebioLizard2**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Chaos Knights, Ensorcelled Weapons
Grave Guard

Thx.
Both weapons look mundane if overly ornamented no?

silverstu wrote:
Nope- totally different-always have been- wash your mouth out for even saying it... Chaos Dwarfs are from the East not the North..Norse Dwarfs had their place in the lore - largest Karak was Kraka Drak and they fought against chaos...

Sorry my bad!
So that's why the hobgobelin mercenaries were from the east too!

Grail Knights had plain, but magical weapons as well before, but Total Warhammer has them now glowing with magical power in a showy fashion.

**Voss**

GaroRobe wrote:
silverstu wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Who thinks that Norse Dwarves are Chaos Dwarves by another name?

[

Nope- totally different-always have been- wash your mouth out for even saying it... Chaos Dwarfs are from the East not the North..Norse Dwarfs had their place in the lore - largest Karak was Kraka Drak and they fought against chaos...

This. I'm pretty sure they may have been a bit more gruff and barbaric, but if I recall correctly, Thorgrim was able to reestablish ties with them

Yep. It was why he was selected for the big chair.

**Galas**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Chaos Knights, Ensorcelled Weapons
Grave Guard

Thx.
Both weapons look mundane if overly ornamented no?

silverstu wrote:
Nope- totally different-always have been- wash your mouth out for even saying it... Chaos Dwarfs are from the East not the North..Norse Dwarfs had their place in the lore - largest Karak was Kraka Drak and they fought against chaos...

Sorry my bad!
So that's why the hobgobelin mercenaries were from the east too!
Grail Knights had plain, but magical weapons as well before, but Total Warhammer has them now glowing with magical power in a showy fashion.

Sadly the technology to make glowing plastic weapons was just not there yet for 6th edition.

**Dread Master**

I saw ToW featured on warcom and got excited, then I saw the sisters of the watch there and was seized by the spirit of meh.... just now very inspiring. Hopefully this means that Kislev as a fully realized faction is in the works, but seems a strange choice. Hard to contextualize any of this without more info tho, so I look forward to seeing how this develops. I just hope we get Dwarfs in there.

**posermcbogus**

Maaaaaan. I thought this was supposed to be pandering to the boring old grognards who liked the old world? Surely if they keep up the sparkly magic (they put glow effects on the concept sketches?) Age of Sigmar vibe, this is going to be dead on arrival?
Are they not trying to cash in on the popularity of Total War and Vermintide? Isn't it simple??? Just copy the aesthetics of those games! They're what people like, y'know, that aesthetic you already own, The one that's designed and ready to go.

I get the point being really hammered in this thread that Kislev has spooky ice magic, and I actually really like the idea of an Ice Queen faction leader, but the real appeal of humans in the old world was that they didn't have fancy magic stuff. Having the magic confined to a forboding tower that spreads it's power across the land, but that the citizens live in awe and fear of it and the Ice queen is far more striking and powerful than yeah, this is our sacred ice magic, we slap it on everything from pommels to spears to arrowheads. Leave that to the elves. Gimme those burly muscle dudes on bears, gimme fat ugly lords, gimme desperate peasants, gimme grit and fear. Humans in warhammer (this goes for 40k as well, but I'll try to keep my frustration on topic) are really only larger than one thing (dwarfs are shorter, but they're much burlier, so it evens out imo) - goblins. When you're in a world were the only thing less diminuative than you is a goblin, it's a pretty desperate state of affairs. Those older models compaired to these newer sketches really feel starkly different, beyond the magic, the weapons are all elaborate and overwrought, unlike the simple functionalism of the older sculpts. The clothes, the sidelocks, straps and jewels all feel too ornate. They'd suit poncy elves, but Kislev? Those weird steppe russain/mongol/polish hussars? It's out of character, as are these seemingly lithe human magic users. Aren't wizards supposed to be secluded old nerds, who've spent their entire lives trying to understand something that humans really have no business meddling in, but try anyway?
I agree with other posters that it feels like they're going to try and blend this re-booted old world into AoS, and again, I think that's doomed if they're trying to pull back the crowd who liked the old world.

Spoiler:

Somewhere in Nottingham, a CEO boshed a fat line of slaneshii dust off of the cardstock terrain intended for the necromunda re-release, scrawled down AoS dreadfleet but metal instead of water on a tattered sheaf of notes, and started to run fictional conversion rates to apply to the Australian FW prices while doodling a few more stubbers on the primaris drop pod. A starved and filthy intern, shackled to a laptop that only displays webpages of the social media channels of the "Warhammer Community", purging negative comments from Facebook and re-posting stock photos on instagram stumbled in, skin freshly bloodied and torn, returning from the shareholder pits.
"S-sir" he stammered, trembling. The CEO glanced up, idly gumming more dust, whilst mind-mapping "Primaris Guilliman - bolt carbine fingers and stealth boltblade NEEDS TO BE TALLER HOW TALL IS A CASTELLAN??? GUILLMAN MUST BE TALLER POSSIBLY SCENIC BASE????? smoke effects MANDATORY"
"Sir, the shareholders are hungry, sir, they're making a frightful ruckus, saying they haven't had record-breaking profits in weeks... They're awful agitated, sir, awful."
"Right you are, Jenkins, right you are" Mused the CEO, tossing the schematics for plastic aspect warriors into a waste paper basket. The intern flinched at the sudden movement. Rummaging in a drawer, the CEO produced two darts, and threw them lazily one after the other over his shoulder at a pair of dartboards labelled "Sigmar factions generator". The CEO and intern turned to the results.
Next to the holes for "water" and "elves", "metal" and "orcs", and fire "fire" and "dwarfs", the darts stuck in "ice" and "humans but ordinary not the space marine ones"
"Right Jenkins, get to work, tell them we're expanding the order faction in sigmar"
"B-but sir, this perhaps could work for the Old World? I'm sure you remember, but actually Kislev is shrouded perpetually in a fog of freezing magic emanating from a mighty-"
"OLD WORLD!!?!?" Roared the CEO "What year is it, Jenkins?"
"2020, sir"
The CEO thrashed frantically around the room, a whirlwind of cascading paper, sketches of rhino re-designs and stormcasts with slightly different weapons. "By god, then that means..." hurridly he huffed from a bag of the dust again. "How many primarchs have come back? Vulkan isn't back yet, is he? I'll flay Craig if Vulkan's back... How's my version of space hulk but with Orks and Eldar selling???? Have you put out those Chaos Cultists as an expansion for Blackstone fortress? Increase the price to $50, and cancel the ratling regiment for Imperial Guard. Maybe squat them entirely?...The Old World???"
He sprinted over to an empty tray labelled "fantasy re-reboot" a single post-it with 55mm Skarsnik on SkySquig

**Argive**

I mean... Just compare the kislev models of the past to the concept art "go go politicaly correct warrior ice chicks yeah!!!" channelin the power of the ice realms... Because... they still need to shove concept realms down everyones throats...

Could have released concept art for some bad ass modern looking hussar winged lancers...but no. Icy mc wolf ice wolfblizzards but in the old world it is... !Ah Its the ice realms.. they have come!" so much for the old world.
We can see how this is going... Might as well bury that shred of hope we had now.

Yeah I get that "these are sepcial unit royal guard so fluffise it is justified" but cmon... Who are we kidding thats going to be a common regiment/unit and you know it...

Rant finished

**Voss**

Are they not trying to cash in on the popularity of Total War and Vermintide? Isn't it simple??? Just copy the aesthetics of those games!

Uh... they are. I'm not sure if you've taken a look at whats actually in the Total Warhammers, but it isn't a world with no 'fancy magic stuff.' Neither was classic warhammer, really.

The Warhammer world was a play where ignorant apprentices accidentally fell into Necromancy (in several different stories), went looking for Slaan spaceships in the chaos wastes, theatrical directors had mutants in their troupe, the head of a noble line of the Empire was a giant piano-playing cockroach, and on and on.

I think that's doomed if they're trying to pull back the crowd who liked the old world.

I think they're smart enough to build off the back of total war and interesting ideas, and not risk failing because they're chasing an overly specific crowd that might not even be interested in coming back anyway.

They need to broad the appeal, not narrow it back down- that makes no business sense at all.

**BertBert**

The real blow is that this is what GW thought would excite people when dropping a teaser about Kislev. Not Winged lancers, not mounted archers, not bear cavalry, not even Katarina or Boris themselves, but what appears to be a contrived new unit of ice warriors who, of course, happen to be all female.

**posermcbogus**

Voss wrote:
Are they not trying to cash in on the popularity of Total War and Vermintide? Isn't it simple??? Just copy the aesthetics of those games!

Uh... they are. I'm not sure if you've taken a look at whats actually in the Total Warhammers, but it isn't a world with no 'fancy magic stuff.' Neither was classic warhammer, really.

The Warhammer world was a play where ignorant apprentices accidentally fell into Necromancy (in several different stories), went looking for Slaan spaceships in the chaos wastes, theatrical directors had mutants in their troupe, the head of a noble line of the Empire was a giant piano-playing cockroach, and on and on.

I think that's doomed if they're trying to pull back the crowd who liked the old world.

I think they're smart enough to build off the back of total war and interesting ideas, and not risk failing because they're chasing an overly specific crowd that might not even be interested in coming back anyway.

They need to broad the appeal, not narrow it back down- that makes no business sense at all.

I literally never said "no magic", please don't re-frame what I said to strengthen your own argument. I was saying it feels out of place for anyone who isn't a wizard. Yeah, you can get some human units that are enchanted, or have enchanted weapons in Total War, but for the most part your human army is gonna be chod halberdiers and other kinds of footslogging commoners, with some more exciting stuff for your counterpunch killy units, but it's hardly on the level of "all the weapons in this unit are made of magic ice, but instead of wizened old wizards experimenting with a force we don't know how to control, we're all lithe and youthful warriors". If they don't want the old world, why even bother bringing it back? Why not just keep AoS going with stuff like this?
But there's a clear interest in the previously establisted niche of design. Total War and Vermintide were really visually faithful to the original WHFB, why suddenly change that?

GW have the technical capability to produce miniatures faithful to this theme, but at a level of detail and customization that could easily blow their competetors out of the water when it comes to semi-historical human miniatures. They can afford to sink the detail and part counts into even ordinary line troops. Instead it looks like they're charging back down the AoS route of something too overrwought to ever be copied or imitated without making grounds for a court case, and it's killed my hype dead. I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks this.

**BertBert**

To be fair, Total War also did this. Just look at that Bretonnian unit with glowing swords as an example. They already turned the dial up to eleven, so it's not entirely unwarranted.

**flamingkillamajig**

Kanluwen wrote:
I love how this is too much for people:

Notice: the weapon tips/blades are not actually made of ice

There's just a layer of ice around them. Didn't hear anyone complaining about wizards that could provide a flame enchantment to weapons before or Empire fire-mages running around all the time with their swords and staves ablaze, but now it's over the top?

Am I the only one that remembers the falmir weapons in skyrim? This looks a lot like that.

For what it's worth I don't mind this new faction and could be cool. Kinda bummed we have yet another human faction but whatever. I mean where are those needle fanged cthulu humanoid beasts 8th somewhat hinted at.
Honestly I think this is more in line with 8th ed than aos but I never really played aos aside from a game or so.

Well to be fair man 8th introduced magical units mostly in the form of magical cavalry. I didn't fully mind except the fact mat ward gave each a literal ward save which people then added magic resistance to a hero and added them to the unit. I kid you not ive seen noobs beat pros with dark elves and wood elves after they got their army books. I dont think it was 7th ed 40k bad but elves and vampires were definitely in the top tier and it was partly thanks to units like that.

Are ice guard gonna be OP? I don't think so and I was never really aware of how good sisters of averlorn were since I didn't come across high elves much (banner of the world dragon was bs though).

Anyway though I enjoyed 8th my biggest issue of it was very random magic phase and magic resistance shouldn't have combined with ward saves to make a better ward save. It caused 2+ ward vs magic and since shooting wasn't too effective outside war machines the magical elf cavalry would just magic you on the move without issue. That's another issue though. If shooting wasn't poisoned or artillery dice dependent then it sucked. Make shooting a bit more effective. Nothing huge but at least allow a bunch of shooting to take out a light cavalry unit or two. Don't turn the game into a shooting-fest but make it a bit more effective. Seriously just a couple big fixes would've been great to 8th ed.

**Moopy**

Kislev: Way too much detail to be 6mm

**Apple fox**

I kinda of like them, but I do hope they tone down the magic a bit. Magic in fantasy was often to dramatic and powerful in game.

I just don’t think Warhammer fantasy needs it to be cool, and often it’s nice to have it sit as a very special rarity that even the soldiers marching with wizards are left in awe off even small acts of magic. a whole unit of magic users should be a rare sight. So depends how they take it.

**Gallahad**

Blurgh. I agree with many here that these suffer from the same over design and reliance on magic as the AOS releases. These would look right at home in AOS.
Is it too much to ask for people with just regular functional looking weapons that don't rely on 'it works because it is MAGIC!"???
Also, this further confirms for me that WHFB classic is (at least in part) an attempt to drink Mantic's KoW milkshake. One of the main armies from KoW 3rd Ed box set is the "Northern Alliance" people in furs with ice weapons.

**terry**

for all people complaining about the weapons, these guys are royal guards, ofcourse they get the best of the best. Let's just wait until we see the normal rank and file units and weapons before complaining about to much magic. Fantasy always had magic and entire units with magic weapons

**Snrub**

flamingkillamajig wrote:
Am I the only one that remembers the falmir weapons in skyrim? This looks a lot like that.

I would have said they were closer to Stalhrim weapons from Solsteim, rather then Falmar weapons.

**Apple fox**

terry wrote:
for all people complaining about the weapons, these guys are royal guards, ofcourse they get the best of the best. Let's just wait until we see the normal rank and file units and weapons before complaining about to much magic. Fantasy always had magic and entire units with magic weapons

You can do Royal guard, and best of the best with a theme that is toned down. Honestly i think it would be cooler. There weapons all just fancy but mundane looking without a good look, and the frost effects are a cool touch and freezes the skin and wounds when struck. Something for players to work with from a hobby point.
Magic does not have to be Super flash and bang to be really cool.
Leave that for the Legendary artifacts to sometimes use.

Also i do not really think there was many units with flashy magic weapons until later into WHF, at least not for the army i play.

**Dreamchild**

Apple fox wrote:
terry wrote:
for all people complaining about the weapons, these guys are royal guards, ofcourse they get the best of the best. Let's just wait until we see the normal rank and file units and weapons before complaining about to much magic. Fantasy always had magic and entire units with magic weapons

You can do Royal guard, and best of the best with a theme that is toned down. Honestly i think it would be cooler. There weapons all just fancy but mundane looking without a good look, and the frost effects are a cool touch and freezes the skin and wounds when struck. Something for players to work with from a hobby point.
Magic does not have to be Super flash and bang to be really cool.
Leave that for the Legendary artifacts to sometimes use.

Also i do not really think there was many units with flashy magic weapons until later into WHF, at least not for the army i play.

Absolutely this. Dark elf Blackguard, Phoenix Guard, and Hammerers come to mind only as a few examples of this.

Someone mentioned Grave Guard and Chaos Knights as units that traditionally had magic weapons, but the thing is that their visual design gives off absolutely no blatant hints about these weapons being "magic", and that's really how I like magic weapons (as I believe is the case with many WHFB fans looking forward to TOW).

In fact, the Grave Guard glaives look the most realistic of the bunch I mentioned, obviously mimicking historical war glaives.

**dyndraig**

This seems really tone-deaf from GW, you would suspect they would lead with something a bit more safe and established to lure in the grogs.

**lord_blackfang**

dyndraig wrote:
This seems really tone-deaf from GW, you would suspect they would lead with something a bit more safe and established to lure in the grogs.

As you can plainly see, there is a large pool of players who will defend GW no matter what. Probably have a bank of both "WHFB was always high magic" and "WHFB was always low magic" essays ready to deploy depending on which way GW goes.