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 Gallahad wrote:
Man, you guys are making me all nostalgic for 6th edition. I think you can make a fair argument that 6th edition was the peak/golden age of WHF. Great grimdark tone, magic was rare and dangerous, and solid rules with just enough flavor.
Those were the days.
I get chills just thinking about what they could do with Brettonians or Puff and Slash Empire if they would just remake some of the core kits with modern technology.
Imagine all the armies getting the Island of Blood treatment...

Ultimately I wouldn't care if they made an edition of rules I didn't like as long as they did IoB/BfSP sets for all the races. I can play 6th any time I want, so it won't break my heart if the rules are too jank for my tastes.

I also think that the 6th edition was the best spot the game was ever in. However, I do have a few of my friends who played it with me back then, that are really into the big new flashy minis they released later towards end times.

One reason I believe the feeling of low fantasy stems from is the limit of 1 or 2 rare units into your army. You would just not see 4 steam tanks. It simply was not possible to field them. If you are extrapolating from that time, the idea of an army of just giants like Sons of Behemat seems absolutely ridiculous. I am fine with one giant. I am still okay with two. But then.... And the same goes for Gryphs, Dragons, Sphinxes and wacky war machines of the Skaven or Imperium. One big centerpiece for the army is awesome. An army of center pieces, not so much.

savemelmac wrote:
I also think that the 6th edition was the best spot the game was ever in. However, I do have a few of my friends who played it with me back then, that are really into the big new flashy minis they released later towards end times.

One reason I believe the feeling of low fantasy stems from is the limit of 1 or 2 rare units into your army. You would just not see 4 steam tanks. It simply was not possible to field them. If you are extrapolating from that time, the idea of an army of just giants like Sons of Behemat seems absolutely ridiculous. I am fine with one giant. I am still okay with two. But then.... And the same goes for Gryphs, Dragons, Sphinxes and wacky war machines of the Skaven or Imperium. One big centerpiece for the army is awesome. An army of center pieces, not so much.

Giants are the one exception I'd not mind a full army of quite as much, as they were a separate faction in the past before being enslaved by the Ogres. Indeed, just like the Ogres have multiple units of Ogres while a Skaven army would probably have 1, the Giants being their own thing can at least make thematic sense, although it remains to be seen how it works out in terms of gameplay (I wonder how different unit types will be distinguished (identical big robots is different from having cloned giants), or the all-or-nothing element from being able to take down large tough creatures that smash whatever they come in contact with). Anyway, that's AoS. An army of steam tanks, on the other hand... *shudders*.

At any rate, I too feel 6th hits the style and scale of what I enjoy most. As it happens, I also started playing around then, so I can't disassociate the perceived quality from "this is how it was and should be". Still, having somewhat interesting games where movement and flanking matter (as many want to see the return of it appears) can't really be combined with single all-eggs-in-one-basket units, where massive spells are the only way to get rid of such deathstars. They have a great opportunity to prevent the power creep of certain army books by designing them all at the same time prior to the relaunch, and as in 6th, I hope there will be a lot of options in faction-specific magic items and character abilities (vampire bloodlines and the likes). At least, that's what I enjoyed about 6th and felt was lacking later on.

Another interesting thing is that the more elaborate technological toys from the later period (clockwork horses, stormfiends) may make even less sense if the new Old World project takes place in an earlier time, centuries before the End Times.

In the fluff steam tanks certainly weren’t uncommon.
Multiple occasions have seen an entire army of steam tanks act as a hammer in sieges.
That was part of the reason we had so many variants at one stage.

Clan skryre war machines are anything but rare.
They churn out enough to supply themselves plus sell countless more to other clans.

Jackal90 wrote:
In the fluff steam tanks certainly weren’t uncommon.
Multiple occasions have seen an entire army of steam tanks act as a hammer in sieges.
That was part of the reason we had so many variants at one stage.

Clan skryre war machines are anything but rare.
They churn out enough to supply themselves plus sell countless more to other clans.

There were 12 steam tanks built in total, that's pretty uncommon.

 ingtaer wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
In the fluff steam tanks certainly weren’t uncommon.
Multiple occasions have seen an entire army of steam tanks act as a hammer in sieges.
That was part of the reason we had so many variants at one stage.

Clan skryre war machines are anything but rare.
They churn out enough to supply themselves plus sell countless more to other clans.

There were 12 steam tanks built in total, that's pretty uncommon.

And by Karl Franz's reign there were only 8.

Tygre wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
In the fluff steam tanks certainly weren’t uncommon.
Multiple occasions have seen an entire army of steam tanks act as a hammer in sieges.
That was part of the reason we had so many variants at one stage.

Clan skryre war machines are anything but rare.
They churn out enough to supply themselves plus sell countless more to other clans.

There were 12 steam tanks built in total, that's pretty uncommon.

And by Karl Franz's reign there were only 8.

Although they were sometimes fiedling together. We still don't have a handle on the period this is being set in either.

Tygre wrote:
And by Karl Franz's reign there were only 8.

That wasn't a particularly great piece of lore. The Empire was never a remnant of some golden age and while Steam Tanks should be rare, they should not be 40k style forgotten technology.

Mr Morden wrote:

Tygre wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
In the fluff steam tanks certainly weren’t uncommon.
Multiple occasions have seen an entire army of steam tanks act as a hammer in sieges.
That was part of the reason we had so many variants at one stage.

Clan skryre war machines are anything but rare.
They churn out enough to supply themselves plus sell countless more to other clans.

There were 12 steam tanks built in total, that's pretty uncommon.

And by Karl Franz's reign there were only 8.

Although they were sometimes fiedling together. We still don't have a handle on the period this is being set in either.

Will be interesting to see, before Magnus doesn't seem practical and during the reign of Franz doesn't really seem likely.

His Master's Voice wrote:

Tygre wrote:
And by Karl Franz's reign there were only 8.

That wasn't a particularly great piece of lore. The Empire was never a remnant of some golden age and while Steam Tanks should be rare, they should not be 40k style forgotten technology.

Makes even less sense during 7th and the introduction of steam horses etc.

All 8 were still used in battles.
So the AoS pure steam tank armies aren’t all that far fetched.
Just a shame we don’t have the variants any more.

Also, wouldn’t surprise me if more were made soon.
It’s a good cash grab.

 Gallahad wrote:
Man, you guys are making me all nostalgic for 6th edition. I think you can make a fair argument that 6th edition was the peak/golden age of WHF. Great grimdark tone, magic was rare and dangerous, and solid rules with just enough flavor.
Those were the days.
I get chills just thinking about what they could do with Brettonians or Puff and Slash Empire if they would just remake some of the core kits with modern technology.
Imagine all the armies getting the Island of Blood treatment...

Oh yeah, Magic was so rare in 6th with those armies totally built around abusing magic die generation.

savemelmac wrote:


One reason I believe the feeling of low fantasy stems from is the limit of 1 or 2 rare units into your army. You would just not see 4 steam tanks. It simply was not possible to field them. If you are extrapolating from that time, the idea of an army of just giants like Sons of Behemat seems absolutely ridiculous. I am fine with one giant. I am still okay with two. But then.... And the same goes for Gryphs, Dragons, Sphinxes and wacky war machines of the Skaven or Imperium. One big centerpiece for the army is awesome. An army of center pieces, not so much.

I think its more to do with WFRP (which is my favourite take on the Warhammer world).

 mindrobber wrote:

savemelmac wrote:


One reason I believe the feeling of low fantasy stems from is the limit of 1 or 2 rare units into your army. You would just not see 4 steam tanks. It simply was not possible to field them. If you are extrapolating from that time, the idea of an army of just giants like Sons of Behemat seems absolutely ridiculous. I am fine with one giant. I am still okay with two. But then.... And the same goes for Gryphs, Dragons, Sphinxes and wacky war machines of the Skaven or Imperium. One big centerpiece for the army is awesome. An army of center pieces, not so much.

I think its more to do with WFRP (which is my favourite take on the Warhammer world).

All of the above are/were present in WFRP as well depending on where and when you set your adventures.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 mindrobber wrote:

savemelmac wrote:


One reason I believe the feeling of low fantasy stems from is the limit of 1 or 2 rare units into your army. You would just not see 4 steam tanks. It simply was not possible to field them. If you are extrapolating from that time, the idea of an army of just giants like Sons of Behemat seems absolutely ridiculous. I am fine with one giant. I am still okay with two. But then.... And the same goes for Gryphs, Dragons, Sphinxes and wacky war machines of the Skaven or Imperium. One big centerpiece for the army is awesome. An army of center pieces, not so much.

I think its more to do with WFRP (which is my favourite take on the Warhammer world).

All of the above are/were present in WFRP as well depending on where and when you set your adventures.

Especially where you set them. Living in Nuln with its full factories was a drastic difference then living near the coast where the Norse raiders ended up. Or dealing constantly with heavy beastmen afflictions and such.

Tygre wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
In the fluff steam tanks certainly weren’t uncommon.
Multiple occasions have seen an entire army of steam tanks act as a hammer in sieges.
That was part of the reason we had so many variants at one stage.

Clan skryre war machines are anything but rare.
They churn out enough to supply themselves plus sell countless more to other clans.

There were 12 steam tanks built in total, that's pretty uncommon.

And by Karl Franz's reign there were only 8.

I'm glad someone pointed that out lol I was getting ready to hit the reply button about how common steam tanks were. Steam tanks didn't become ultra common until around 8th edition when they started unchaining everything. And AOS is all about unchaining everything.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Oh yeah, Magic was so rare in 6th with those armies totally built around abusing magic die generation.

Lol yeah, like how many power dice could a Tzeentch Chaos army bring to the table. Was it 21 or 24? I can't quite remember.

6th Edition was probably the most balanced. It had it's problems yes, but they were minor and fixable without needing a complete overall of the system.

I think often a lot of people mistake magic being "rare" in 6th (it wasn't) for not being as stupid-lethal as it was in 8th.

You lot do realise GW are not remaking WHFB right? They’re making a new game. All this “it was/wasn’t like this in 4th/5th/6th” etc means precisely bugger all

MaxT wrote:
You lot do realise GW are not remaking WHFB right? They’re making a new game. All this “it was/wasn’t like this in 4th/5th/6th” etc means precisely bugger all

Huh, I must have missed the announcement where they explained exactly what it would be, didn't realise that knowledge was out there yet.

The assumption has been that it would be like Necromunda - changed in parts, but with many elements of the original - making it relevant to discuss which elements of the original would likely carry over. However, you seem to have acquired some insights disproving this, which we lack at present. Feel free to enlighten us when you have the time!

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:
Man, you guys are making me all nostalgic for 6th edition. I think you can make a fair argument that 6th edition was the peak/golden age of WHF. Great grimdark tone, magic was rare and dangerous, and solid rules with just enough flavor.
Those were the days.
I get chills just thinking about what they could do with Brettonians or Puff and Slash Empire if they would just remake some of the core kits with modern technology.
Imagine all the armies getting the Island of Blood treatment...

Oh yeah, Magic was so rare in 6th with those armies totally built around abusing magic die generation.

Why is it that powergamers who game the system are always used automatically as some sort of lore/writer's intent precedent?

Jackal90 wrote:
All 8 were still used in battles.
So the AoS pure steam tank armies aren’t all that far fetched.
Just a shame we don’t have the variants any more.

Also, wouldn’t surprise me if more were made soon.
It’s a good cash grab.

As silly as it got, I did like the crazy Davinci Clockwork Punk/Steampunk Empire. Yeah robo horse may have been a bit too far but it was a good fantasy human take unlike anythink else around.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Oh yeah, Magic was so rare in 6th with those armies totally built around abusing magic die generation.

Lol yeah, like how many power dice could a Tzeentch Chaos army bring to the table. Was it 21 or 24? I can't quite remember.

6th Edition was probably the most balanced. It had it's problems yes, but they were minor and fixable without needing a complete overall of the system.

Maybe I played with/against the wrong (or indeed right) armies at the time, but wasn't that mainly 7th, Daemons? Don't recall major issues with magic in 6th - often, there was a reasonable choice of going with or without magic, the only issue perhaps being that going light on magic meant an enemy wizard with a scroll could shut most of your offense down (then again, no biggie if you didn't invest in it heavily yourself).

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Oh yeah, Magic was so rare in 6th with those armies totally built around abusing magic die generation.

Lol yeah, like how many power dice could a Tzeentch Chaos army bring to the table. Was it 21 or 24? I can't quite remember.

6th Edition was probably the most balanced. It had it's problems yes, but they were minor and fixable without needing a complete overall of the system.

Maybe I played with/against the wrong (or indeed right) armies at the time, but wasn't that mainly 7th, Daemons? Don't recall major issues with magic in 6th - often, there was a reasonable choice of going with or without magic, the only issue perhaps being that going light on magic meant an enemy wizard with a scroll could shut most of your offense down (then again, no biggie if you didn't invest in it heavily yourself).

Tzeentch marks on Mortal and Beast units gave you +1 PD per unit. Since ALL of your Mortal units counted as Core if your General was Mortal, you could see how this would add up. Add to the fact that in 6th there was one massive dice pool, which meant any Wizard who contributed was not forced to use their own dice, so you could frontload all the dice into whichever Wiz suited your purpose at the time. The best part of the Tzeentch spells? You had no spells that could totally decimate units bar one, and that would necessitate perfect rolling on two rounds of 4+'s. A LOT of the internet hyperbole you catch about 6th assumes that every hit/wound/cast/whatever roll was successful if it satisfied some bizarre argument on how the game was imbalanced and was Magichammer/Cavalryhammer/whateverhammer.

Ah yes the 6th Ed magic phase was total trash and I say that as a Dwarf player who laughed at most armies pathetic attempts to use it.

It may not be a popular opinion but I still think 8th had the best system but the spells ruined it, the system though was fine and just needed a few tweaks.

So the horrible hhorrible Tzeentch Daemon list you hear about has Horrors as casters with a choice of three bound spells that has a casting value of half the Unit Strength for purposes of dispelling. The first spell is a Magic Missile that does D6 hits (Decimating, I know...) at a Strength that is equal to 1 point of Strength per every 5 Unit Strength up to a max of 5. The second spell is 12" range or base to base, and has every model in the targeted unit taking a Strength 3 hit. (That's a little more in line with the legend, but still able to be dispelled. The third spell can only be cast in base to base, and kills any man sized models outright on a roll of 6 with no saves, turning the casualties into Horrors for the unit.

Oh, you can only choose 1 per turn to cast from each unit of Horrors in your army. Also, Horrors don't add dice to the dice pool, so spamming Bound Spells is the worst that can happen. Anyone saying you get PD from Horrors is lying. Nowhere in Hordes of Chaos does it state AT ALL that Horrors have the Mark of Tzeentch, nor that they are even able to pay points to have it.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Oh yeah, Magic was so rare in 6th with those armies totally built around abusing magic die generation.

Lol yeah, like how many power dice could a Tzeentch Chaos army bring to the table. Was it 21 or 24? I can't quite remember.

6th Edition was probably the most balanced. It had it's problems yes, but they were minor and fixable without needing a complete overall of the system.

Maybe I played with/against the wrong (or indeed right) armies at the time, but wasn't that mainly 7th, Daemons? Don't recall major issues with magic in 6th - often, there was a reasonable choice of going with or without magic, the only issue perhaps being that going light on magic meant an enemy wizard with a scroll could shut most of your offense down (then again, no biggie if you didn't invest in it heavily yourself).

Tzeentch marks on Mortal and Beast units gave you +1 PD per unit. Since ALL of your Mortal units counted as Core if your General was Mortal, you could see how this would add up. Add to the fact that in 6th there was one massive dice pool, which meant any Wizard who contributed was not forced to use their own dice, so you could frontload all the dice into whichever Wiz suited your purpose at the time. The best part of the Tzeentch spells? You had no spells that could totally decimate units bar one, and that would necessitate perfect rolling on two rounds of 4+'s. A LOT of the internet hyperbole you catch about 6th assumes that every hit/wound/cast/whatever roll was successful if it satisfied some bizarre argument on how the game was imbalanced and was Magichammer/Cavalryhammer/whateverhammer.

Thanks for the clarification! The only Chaos player I faced during 6th used pure Khorne from what I remember, so his magic phase wasn't as problematic.

Also, for clarity, it cost 20 points to mark a unit Tzeentch. Marauders couldn't get the Mark, so you had Warrior units hitting at 300 points who were your source to spam PD. 4 Dice sets you back 1,200 points before you even GET to the characters to use the dice. You know, the ones paying about 70 points per model to get the Mark? I actually played this army and knew how poorly it played out trying to chase the dice when it served me better to have more boots on ground.

Chariots were the only really cheap way of getting PD, which meant your entire army was sacrificing Combat Resolution for a few extra dice to power spells that averaged between 4-8 wounds, being generous.

3rd Edition with Warhammer Armies (all lists in one book) is still my favourite edition

The advent of steam horses and their likes is partly what drove me away. I simply prefer the lower standard of magic and technology of the world as I perceived it in 6th edition and through the Gotrek and Felix books. I am fully aware they need to make money, and unique flashy miniatures are a great way to do so. On a tangent, I totally dislike this type of fluff in 40k as well (looking at you admech!).

Apart from the fluff, I really hope they follow the same route as for 6th editions with ravaging hordes. That means, one barebones army book / list for each faction and then a period of 6 months to a year of public playtesting, before they really start to churn out the army books. I would rather wait for half a year or a full year more for my new game if that means it is reasonably balanced.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
All 8 were still used in battles.
So the AoS pure steam tank armies aren’t all that far fetched.
Just a shame we don’t have the variants any more.

Also, wouldn’t surprise me if more were made soon.
It’s a good cash grab.

As silly as it got, I did like the crazy Davinci Clockwork Punk/Steampunk Empire. Yeah robo horse may have been a bit too far but it was a good fantasy human take unlike anythink else around.

See, I don't actually have a problem with that kind of thing existing in the setting, despite broadly feeling the same as savemelmac in the sense of considering circa-6th and the BL novels with that tone as the peak of the setting in terms of the background and general "feel". I don't even object to the existence of your Demigryph Knights and the like(for example, make the Demigryphs a rarity bred in the Emperor's zoo and used exclusively by the Reiksguard Inner Circle, essentially a "special character-unit") just the way they're added. The issue is when they define the setting, as they came to late 7th into 8th & ET, rather than being curiosities and oddities. The "clockpunk" stuff, the very-high-magic stuff, they're like fresh ground black pepper - they make excellent seasoning, but you don't want to eat that and nothing else. People will say to just ignore the bits you don't care for, but it's hard to reconcile the world depicted in Gotrek & Felix(pre-atrocious ET duology) or Angelika Fleischer or the Florin & Lorenzo books with the idea of magic being commonplace and everything being 100% high fantasy clockpunk 100% of the time - a world that has a clockwork pidgeon delivery network and magical doodads all over the place isn't a world where travel and communication are difficult and a single magical sword and the person who wields it are special.

What baffles me about the robohorse is that Dave Gallagher's concept art for it was both more fitting - in that it was still completely unrealistic and OTT but not utterly implausible - and IMO much cooler. DG's Empire concepts from around '04 are actually a great example of trying to find that balance; most of them can't even pretend to be "historical" beyond the general landschneckt'y aesthetic, but the really out-there stuff is almost all depicted as being crazy Master Engineer one-offs, or flamboyant characters, or the province of mad wizard lords, that kind of thing.