AresX8 wrote:

Darkjediben wrote:Pretty sure you don't have any secret access to White Dwarf, Falkor. The whole "SoB in WD before Necrons" thing is just yet another rumor, no more true than any other rumor.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360/367867.page#2923411 says otherwise

That's exactly what I saw. should have posted that when I said it.

This is most.... disappointing. I guess I'll just stick with building my Malal/Malice worshipping CSM...

Yeah, my bad Falkor, I hadn't seen that, thought you were just kinda taking the other rumors into account as fact lol

Well GW gets none of my money for another few months. Just as good then, needed a change of pace from Warhammer.

When I decided to start 40k I immediately chose Necrons, before I learned about the rumors of an upcoming update. I get the feeling GW is doing all they can to stop me from starting that army... And frankly, they are doing an excellent job.
Simply put, totally disappointed. Going to stick with my Fantasy O&G at least there are no annoying Marines there getting updated every once in a while at the expense of all other armies. Honestly, doesn't that infuriate anyone else?

angelshade00 wrote:When I decided to start 40k I immediately chose Necrons, before I learned about the rumors of an upcoming update. I get the feeling GW is doing all they can to stop me from starting that army... And frankly, they are doing an excellent job.
Simply put, totally disappointed. Going to stick with my Fantasy O&G at least there are no annoying Marines there getting updated every once in a while at the expense of all other armies. Honestly, doesn't that infuriate anyone else?

ummmm.........yeah.

Praxiss wrote:

angelshade00 wrote:When I decided to start 40k I immediately chose Necrons, before I learned about the rumors of an upcoming update. I get the feeling GW is doing all they can to stop me from starting that army... And frankly, they are doing an excellent job.
Simply put, totally disappointed. Going to stick with my Fantasy O&G at least there are no annoying Marines there getting updated every once in a while at the expense of all other armies. Honestly, doesn't that infuriate anyone else?

ummmm.........yeah.

Good to know. And what angers me the most, is the certainty that, even if Necrons get released in November, the next codex will again be some Marine chapter or something...

I dont think so.. Most Marines have a fairly new codex, so..

Codex: ultramahriinz!

angelshade00 wrote:Good to know. And what angers me the most, is the certainty that, even if Necrons get released in November, the next codex will again be some Marine chapter or something...

I think it's unlikely we'll see another Marine chapter in 5th edition. By my calculations, in order to fit in the last two/three 3rd edition codecies and the remaining major books* before 6th edition, the release schedule should be:

Necrons, Sisters, Tau, Eldar, Orks, Chaos SM - with Eldar and Sisters taking the place of a MEQ army ***EDIT: I now know Tau are 4th ed, not 3rd***

But if Sisters are getting done next with a WD codex, then it messes the whole thing up (unless GW breaks the pattern they have shown so far) as Eldar would have to follow Necrons and I think that's unlikely as there are no rumours to support it (although it would fit the fluff!). An alternative would therefore be:

Necrons, Eldar, Tau, Chaos SM, Orks

Either way this would probably push 6th edition into 2013 as there just isn't the time to get 4 codecies and a new ruleset in 2012 imo so I'm still open minded and expecting some more hi-jinx from GW

* IMO the major armies are: SM, IG, Tyranids, Eldar, Orks, Chaos SM

Not sure i can afford to have Necrons and CSM both get new armies in the same year.

/gulp.

Don't worry, I'm Australian, if I ever was to buy GW again, I have to choose between eating food and a box of miniatures.

Come to think of it, my missus and I live on $100 a week in food.

A monolith for example, is $110. So 2 adults eat quite nice food for less than a monolith.

12 warriors is $55. So a full 20 man squad costs more than 2 adults eat in a week.

The two of us are on quite decent pay, and even I balk at paying that.

Seriously?!?! A Monolith costs you £71?!?!


Is that through GW or through anywhere?

When I first went to start 40k, I had no idea what army to pick. My friends had already picked Space marines and Orks, and so I had decided not to pick either army. I was at my flgs, looking through all the armies, when I happened to pick up a box of Necron Warriors. A man walked behind me and asked if I played 40k. I said I was thinking about starting and didn't know which army to pick. The man replied, "Necrons is a mans game. Are you a man?" At that moment I picked up Necrons and have been collecting for over a year.

Now, in the future, I realized I picked an army that is in serious need of a new codex and new models, but until the day that happens, I'm okay knowing I play a man's game.

We can really only get it through GW now, independent stockists still have to buy from AUS GW, so usually its about 10% off.

With all UK online retailers now banned, models are more expensive than bills.

Hell I'm on $80k a year, my missus is on $40k a year, and they priced me out of the hobby. I walked past GW Chermside yesterday, and it was empty, bar the one staff member on duty.

Meh, this isnt a price rant thread, so instead, I'm in the process of making my own necrons, out of wire, kneadite, and such. When I make a few, I will cast them, and play with them.

Lucky we dont have a new codex, cos they cost $50 here, and Ive got the EXACT same codex, bought day of release, for $25 (I think, it was a long time ago).

Grim.Badger wrote:

angelshade00 wrote:Good to know. And what angers me the most, is the certainty that, even if Necrons get released in November, the next codex will again be some Marine chapter or something...

I think it's unlikely we'll see another Marine chapter in 5th edition. By my calculations, in order to fit in the last two/three 3rd edition codecies and the remaining major books* before 6th edition, the release schedule should be:

Necrons, Sisters, Tau, Eldar, Orks, Chaos SM - with Eldar and Sisters taking the place of a MEQ army

But if Sisters are getting done next with a WD codex, then it messes the whole thing up (unless GW breaks the pattern they have shown so far) as Eldar would have to follow Necrons and I think that's unlikely as there are no rumours to support it (although it would fit the fluff!). An alternative would therefore be:

Necrons, Eldar, Tau, Chaos SM, Orks

Either way this would probably push 6th edition into 2013 as there just isn't the time to get 4 codecies and a new ruleset in 2012 imo so I'm still open minded and expecting some more hi-jinx from GW

* IMO the major armies are: SM, IG, Tyranids, Eldar, Orks, Chaos SM

Ummm, I'm pretty sure the only codexs left for 5th edition are crons and sob. After necrons come out, then they'll release 6th edition, nerfing necrons yet again, and following that the rest of the ocdex's will update(after space marines of course)

cyberscape7 wrote:Ummm, I'm pretty sure the only codexs left for 5th edition are crons and sob. After necrons come out, then they'll release 6th edition, nerfing necrons yet again, and following that the rest of the ocdex's will update(after space marines of course)

****Edit: Just checked and Tau are indeed 4th ed so sorry for the note below****
Tau are running with a 3rd edition codex, so it would be really weird to not update them as it would leave them as the only 3rd ed codex not updated in 5th*. Eldar, Orks and CSM are all 4th edition codecies and major armies so I can't see them not getting done in 5th edition unless they're the first codecies in 6th (v.doubtfull). If GW don't do a new CSM codex, a lot of people will be annoyed to say the least as it's possibly the most dull book out there plus loads of their models are overdue an update. Although Eldar and Orks don't need new codecies, neither did 'Nids so I see no reason to think they wont get one in 5th - depends on whether GW see them as major armies like I do.

But like I said, I wouldn't be suprised if we see some shenanigans of some sort and the timescales would fit better if one or two of the armies I think will be done for 5th are dropped until 6th. If it was: Sister WD, Necrons and CSM before 6th, that would fit really well.

* SW, BA, DE and GK were all on 3rd edition codecies if you ignore the BA pdf

And don't forget Dark Angels and Black Templars.

An FAQ update does not a 5th edition codex make.....at all!

Steelmage99 wrote:And don't forget Dark Angels and Black Templars.

An FAQ update does not a 5th edition codex make.....at all!

Ya, but at least they got even that!

Steelmage99 wrote:And don't forget Dark Angels and Black Templars.

An FAQ update does not a 5th edition codex make.....at all!

They've got 4th ed codecies and are minor armies, so I doubt they'll get updated until 6th - same with Chaos Daemons. Plus BA, SW, DE, GK and Necrons will probably not get an update in 6th IMO

Tau Empire is 4th edition
Eldar is 4th edition
CSM is 4th edition
Orks are TECHNICALLY 4th edition, as are Daemons, however BOTH were written for 5th edition rules.

BT and DA are 4th, but I HIGHLY doubt they will get a 5th edition release - too niche

Grim.Badger wrote:But like I said, I wouldn't be suprised if we see some shenanigans of some sort and the timescales would fit better if one or two of the armies I think will be done for 5th are dropped until 6th. If it was: Sister WD, Necrons, Tau and CSM before 6th, that would fit really well.

GW's promise a while back was that they would update all 3rd ed. codices before the end of 5th. I very much doubt we'll see any 4th ed codices get updates before 6th launches (keep in mind that's likely, what, 15 months away, tops?). It looks like they're clearing the decks to give them time to work on 6th. So I suspect Necrons will be the last full 5th ed codex, and that we'll see a lot of WFB over the next year along with some 40K 2nd/3rd waves to fill out the schedule. I also figure Necrons will have a 6th ed-friendly codex. FYI, Tau Empire is a 4th ed codex, so no broken promises there.

Somewhat off-topic, but I think CSMs will almost certainly be one of the big tentpole releases in 6th. Low hanging fruit...underachieving sales...easily put into a starter box...nothing not to like there. Eldar could also be a big one. My gut says no new Tyranid codex for quite a while.

The gap between 4th and 5th edition was only 4 years, but the gap between 3rd and 4th was 6 years, and between 2nd and 3rd was 5 years. Why is everybody so gosh darn certain that 6th edition is ABSOLUTELY coming out in 2012? It's not like 5th has any glaring rules deficiencies that need to be addressed ASAP, and GW has put the kibosh on the advanced announcements and rumor mills. It bugs me that everyone sort of takes for granted that those rumors are 100% true.

cyberscape7 wrote:
Ummm, I'm pretty sure the only codexs left for 5th edition are crons and sob. After necrons come out, then they'll release 6th edition, nerfing necrons yet again, and following that the rest of the ocdex's will update(after space marines of course)

That's what I'm afraid of...

Darkjediben wrote: Why is everybody so gosh darn certain that 6th edition is ABSOLUTELY coming out in 2012? It's not like 5th has any glaring rules deficiencies that need to be addressed ASAP, and GW has put the kibosh on the advanced announcements and rumor mills.

Because, the new codices might make some army be more powerful than the mighty MAHREENZ! and GW can't have that...so they'll get to 6th edition quickly to rectify the mistake...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tau Empire is 4th edition
Eldar is 4th edition
CSM is 4th edition
Orks are TECHNICALLY 4th edition, as are Daemons, however BOTH were written for 5th edition rules.

BT and DA are 4th, but I HIGHLY doubt they will get a 5th edition release - too niche

I believe CSM are 5th, actually.

Keatonic wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tau Empire is 4th edition
Eldar is 4th edition
CSM is 4th edition
Orks are TECHNICALLY 4th edition, as are Daemons, however BOTH were written for 5th edition rules.

BT and DA are 4th, but I HIGHLY doubt they will get a 5th edition release - too niche

I believe CSM are 5th, actually.

Nope, 4th. Same boat as DA and some other codices when under Jervis Law of giving an army bare minimum in options for easier style of play. One does not understand the Jervis Law, it just is.

angelshade00 wrote:
Because, the new codices might make some army be more powerful than the mighty MAHREENZ! and GW can't have that...so they'll get to 6th edition quickly to rectify the mistake...

Marines aren't terribly powerful. They're very much middle of the road.

Kurgash wrote:

Keatonic wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tau Empire is 4th edition
Eldar is 4th edition
CSM is 4th edition
Orks are TECHNICALLY 4th edition, as are Daemons, however BOTH were written for 5th edition rules.

BT and DA are 4th, but I HIGHLY doubt they will get a 5th edition release - too niche

I believe CSM are 5th, actually.

Nope, 4th. Same boat as DA and some other codices when under Jervis Law of giving an army bare minimum in options for easier style of play. One does not understand the Jervis Law, it just is.

Hmm. Weird. I could've sworn it was 5th... But yeah, you're right. I just checked the Wikipedia article on the release dates. September 2007.

Is it just me, or is anyone else a little peeved that after all the rumours that have been discussed on this thread, dating back to several months ago, sisters are just popping up out of the blue?
I mean, it may be a WD codex, but its still a codex!#

angelshade00 wrote:

cyberscape7 wrote:
Ummm, I'm pretty sure the only codexs left for 5th edition are crons and sob. After necrons come out, then they'll release 6th edition, nerfing necrons yet again, and following that the rest of the ocdex's will update(after space marines of course)

That's what I'm afraid of...

Darkjediben wrote: Why is everybody so gosh darn certain that 6th edition is ABSOLUTELY coming out in 2012? It's not like 5th has any glaring rules deficiencies that need to be addressed ASAP, and GW has put the kibosh on the advanced announcements and rumor mills.

Because, the new codices might make some army be more powerful than the mighty MAHREENZ! and GW can't have that...so they'll get to 6th edition quickly to rectify the mistake...

-2 modifier in CC for every wound you lost by, marines don't take this negative and now don't take any no retreat wounds nor can they be sweeping advanced as normal. -3 per wound if lost against a marine. Fearless units still run from marines and can be sweeping advanced. Terminators now ignore the initiative penalty for power fists and can take assault and defensive grenades....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother SRM wrote:

angelshade00 wrote:
Because, the new codices might make some army be more powerful than the mighty MAHREENZ! and GW can't have that...so they'll get to 6th edition quickly to rectify the mistake...

Marines aren't terribly powerful. They're very much middle of the road.

The issue is that marines have no weakness. Sure they don't necessarily have crazy powerful units (like a c'tan or something) but they just don't have a chink in their armor like other armies.

WEll, the chink tends to be Tactical marines. THeyre pretty poor.

nosferatu1001 wrote:WEll, the chink tends to be Tactical marines. THeyre pretty poor.

Ya, so they just don't take 'em if they can avoid it. Unlike many other armies (like necrons) whose chink is...the only troops choice. LoL But really, even tac marines aren't THAT bad compared to other armies that take up the same FO slot as TM's. If you get what I'm saying. Either way, you can still stick 'em in a box and drive 'em around protected while blasting out the high str low AP weaponry.

Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:WEll, the chink tends to be Tactical marines. THeyre pretty poor.

Ya, so they just don't take 'em if they can avoid it. Unlike many other armies (like necrons) whose chink is...the only troops choice. LoL But really, even tac marines aren't THAT bad compared to other armies that take up the same FO slot as TM's. If you get what I'm saying. Either way, you can still stick 'em in a box and drive 'em around protected while blasting out the high str low AP weaponry.

They're not bad, and the tactic above works well - their problem is that people are so used to them that they know how to deal with them and usually design at least part of their army to specifically to deal with Tac squads sat on an objective on the other side of the table.

Warriors on the other hand are very weak as there isn't really a reliable way of using them considering their high points costs, limited range of fire and vulnerability to sweeping advance (imo the most stupid illogical rule in 5th ed 40k, and I mostly play Marines!)

Im liking the sound of these rumors, even the C'tan as elites (although Im not sure how the fluff is going to look for this) but hopefully a big plastic C'tan kit with lot of options will be released if its true.

Darkjediben wrote:The gap between 4th and 5th edition was only 4 years, but the gap between 3rd and 4th was 6 years, and between 2nd and 3rd was 5 years. Why is everybody so gosh darn certain that 6th edition is ABSOLUTELY coming out in 2012? It's not like 5th has any glaring rules deficiencies that need to be addressed ASAP, and GW has put the kibosh on the advanced announcements and rumor mills. It bugs me that everyone sort of takes for granted that those rumors are 100% true.

Because they don't release new editions to fix "glaring rules deficiencies," they do it for the accompanying spike in sales. WFB was 2010, and a new 40K will almost certainly arrive in 2012.

Kevin949 wrote:
The issue is that marines have no weakness. Sure they don't necessarily have crazy powerful units (like a c'tan or something) but they just don't have a chink in their armor like other armies.

Plasma guns, melta guns, battlecannons, high initiative power weapons, large hordes, more elite units, darklances, monstrous creatures, etc etc

Marines are tougher than the average troop, yeah. However, they are far from invulnerable. Their weaknesses aren't quite as apparent as some other armies' weaknesses, but they also don't have quite as much strength. Your average vanilla Marine army doesn't do anything alarmingly well aside from survive, and there's plenty in the game that doesn't give a damn about that.

Congrats on getting the new codex!!!!

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:
The issue is that marines have no weakness. Sure they don't necessarily have crazy powerful units (like a c'tan or something) but they just don't have a chink in their armor like other armies.

Plasma guns, melta guns, battlecannons, high initiative power weapons, large hordes, more elite units, darklances, monstrous creatures, etc etc

Marines are tougher than the average troop, yeah. However, they are far from invulnerable. Their weaknesses aren't quite as apparent as some other armies' weaknesses, but they also don't have quite as much strength. Your average vanilla Marine army doesn't do anything alarmingly well aside from survive, and there's plenty in the game that doesn't give a damn about that.

So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:Congrats on getting the new codex!!!!

What? lol.

cyberscape7 wrote:Is it just me, or is anyone else a little peeved that after all the rumours that have been discussed on this thread, dating back to several months ago, sisters are just popping up out of the blue?
I mean, it may be a WD codex, but its still a codex!#

And? Necrons are still the next full codex to be released. The Sisters update is just a Bandaid to fix the major differences between the Grey Knights book and the Witchhunters which have similar or same units that currently play totally different. Plus GW must wipe clean the taint of allied rules from the 40k system. Just can't have that apparently.

My guess is the sisters update will be less than spectacular, with no new models(aside from Finecast version of metal minis) and this would coincide with the second wave of finecast nicely, which does feature Inquisitor Karamazov.

Wow, seems I accidentally incited a new wave of Marine-hate... sorry about that guys...
I just got a little extra disappointed by the rumors...

Meh. It was bound to happen at some point

Grim - SA has been around since 3rd edition, and is entirely unchanged since 4th edition. AS in, the rule is WORD for WORD the same.

The reason everyone is hung up on it is the change to the break test taken in combat, which means that FINALLY combat isnt a sluggfest till one side is entirely dead - or near as makes no odds - like it was in 4th

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grim - SA has been around since 3rd edition, and is entirely unchanged since 4th edition. AS in, the rule is WORD for WORD the same.

The reason everyone is hung up on it is the change to the break test taken in combat, which means that FINALLY combat isnt a sluggfest till one side is entirely dead - or near as makes no odds - like it was in 4th

Fair enough, I only tinkered with 3rd and didn't play fourth at all - it's still a stupid illogical rule though, as if breaking from combat in terror means that the enemy can suddenly carve you all up regardless of your comparative numbers, armour etc I also don't like Fearless wounds - it's like they tried to think of a downside to a rule that shouldn't have a downside other than the inability to break from combat just because they'd handed it out like sweets.

And yes I am grumpy this morning

Grim.Badger wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grim - SA has been around since 3rd edition, and is entirely unchanged since 4th edition. AS in, the rule is WORD for WORD the same.

The reason everyone is hung up on it is the change to the break test taken in combat, which means that FINALLY combat isnt a sluggfest till one side is entirely dead - or near as makes no odds - like it was in 4th

Fair enough, I only tinkered with 3rd and didn't play fourth at all - it's still a stupid illogical rule though, as if breaking from combat in terror means that the enemy can suddenly carve you all up regardless of your comparative numbers, armour etc I also don't like Fearless wounds - it's like they tried to think of a downside to a rule that shouldn't have a downside other than the inability to break from combat just because they'd handed it out like sweets.

And yes I am grumpy this morning

Actually SA makes perfect sense and isn't illogical in the slightest, Fearless needed to be altered because of the ability to lock units in combat for an entire game. The problem was that putting the same downside from fearless onto ATSKNF without any additional nerf made it better than fearless and considering the ridiculous amount of SM players it's all the worse.

Grim - as the SA rule says, it doesnt represent you all being dead, necessarily, just so broken that you scatter and are unable to form a cohesive unit. There is PLENTY of examples of this happening IRL as well - once morale is gone to the point that you scatter, you are not an effective fighting force any longer. certainly not one that can be controlled by the player - hence the inability to control them, and their removal from the board.

However if its guard breaking from genestealers, then they probably have all been eaten....

Or worse...

Kevin949 wrote:So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Yeah, apothecaries are so broken seeing how you can only take one per captain you take in your army, and even then are part of an expensive yet small squad. Marines are good at everything and great at nothing. Likewise they're weak against almost everything but won't melt like butter to most things short of a battlecannon. Marines are by no stretch of the imagination unbalanced or overpowered or whatever else you want to tack on there. Notice how Codex: Space Marines doesn't top the tournaments, and never really has. I'll agree that units like TH/SS Terminators with 3++ saves are tough as nails and there isn't a great way to kill them aside from a stupid amount of fire. The whole point of the army is well rounded statlines on tough models. Their killing power is where they lose some steam. 200 points of Tactical Marines is seldom going to cause as much damage as 200 points of Orks or well-armed Guardsmen.

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Yeah, apothecaries are so broken seeing how you can only take one per captain you take in your army, and even then are part of an expensive yet small squad. Marines are good at everything and great at nothing. Likewise they're weak against almost everything but won't melt like butter to most things short of a battlecannon. Marines are by no stretch of the imagination unbalanced or overpowered or whatever else you want to tack on there. Notice how Codex: Space Marines doesn't top the tournaments, and never really has. I'll agree that units like TH/SS Terminators with 3++ saves are tough as nails and there isn't a great way to kill them aside from a stupid amount of fire. The whole point of the army is well rounded statlines on tough models. Their killing power is where they lose some steam. 200 points of Tactical Marines is seldom going to cause as much damage as 200 points of Orks or well-armed Guardsmen.

200 points will get you one eleven-man squad of Necron Warriors with 2 points left over. These Warriors easily die from being shot at, and are almost guaranteed to die from close combat. They are not fearless or have ATSKNF, but will retreat when it seems logical (That is written in the Necron special rules, but it's just fluff!!). Phase Out, a rule that would make any army suck, was bestowed to Necrons, and now haunts them. Best part is that you need to take these Warriors, as they are your only troop choice. They have we'll be back, sure, but in close combat they are more likely to be wiped out then and there, and with the fire power out now, their only saving grace is LD 10. Guass is useful, but it basically means I'm wishing for glances. Heck, Warriors are meant to hide in a corner or go for a point being well protected. Compared to Tactical marines, they cause no damage.

Sorry for the rant, but it angers me when I play my 3rd edition army, last codex came out 2002, and I hear people with 5th edition codexes complain about their army having all these weaknesses. Some of the most competitive armies are Space Marine/Marine ally armies, suck as Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, and Grey Knights. Sure you can argue they are weak and not amazing, but they are still better than the Necrons. How often do you see a Necron Player in a big tournament? very seldom. How often do they win? Idk, but I'm gonna say 1 out of every 200, and that's being reasonable, imo.

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Yeah, apothecaries are so broken seeing how you can only take one per captain you take in your army, and even then are part of an expensive yet small squad. Marines are good at everything and great at nothing. Likewise they're weak against almost everything but won't melt like butter to most things short of a battlecannon. Marines are by no stretch of the imagination unbalanced or overpowered or whatever else you want to tack on there. Notice how Codex: Space Marines doesn't top the tournaments, and never really has. I'll agree that units like TH/SS Terminators with 3++ saves are tough as nails and there isn't a great way to kill them aside from a stupid amount of fire. The whole point of the army is well rounded statlines on tough models. Their killing power is where they lose some steam. 200 points of Tactical Marines is seldom going to cause as much damage as 200 points of Orks or well-armed Guardsmen.

And the fact that Codex: Space Wolves doesn't have ANY FNP whatsoever angers me more.

Even if you did put 200 tac marines against 200 orks or 200 guardsmen the marines would still win. The Marines would be well-armed too.

The point is not that 'Marines are broken, omg'. The point is that marines are good at everything, with no major achilles heel. Most, if not all, other armies out there have some kind of detractor to balance the things they are good at.

Necrons- Phase Out, Gimped I , No vehicle support beyond the Lith. No Melta, Plasma, Grenades etc. High Pts cost, Single troop type that's a poor man's tac marine. Vicious weakness to Sweeping. No transports.

Benefit: WBB, Marine statline, barring low I, Gauss weapons. The arguably best tank in the game.


Nids - Synapse, Lousy armour saves (barring MC's, No Vehicles (to hide troops in), No melta, very little plasma, Very little good antitank

Benefit: Some big, high wound MC's, massed horde at low pts cost, A few good Psyker powers.


Tau- Lousy statlines, No squad special weapons, precious little melta and plasma, slow skimmers with poor weaponry, Pathetic CC ability, even from their CC specialists. BS 3 on a shooting specialist army.

Benefit: Railguns, shoot and scoot suits


Orks: Lousy armour, lousy Ld, No powerweapons (powerklaws yes, PW no), melta, plasma, few grenades, most vehicles are fragile, no reliable S9 ranged weapons, pathetic BS, Random psyker powers with 1 in 6 of killing the psyker, pathetic I,

Benefit- Low pts costs, T4, furious charge, mob rule, waagh, Some good but very random units like SAG, Lootas, Deffrollas.


Dark Eldar - Fragile as hell vehicles, No large blast weapons that aren't a oneshot (afaik), lousy armour, generally.

Benefit- Poisoned EVERYTHING, fast as hell vehicles, lots of lance/disintegrator fire. High I. Shadow field/Flickerfields.


Marines - (including all flavors)

Moderately high pts values.

Benefit: The best armour in the game, the best continuous invulnerable saves in the game, massive vehicle support for almost any need, the best tank in the game (arguably, toss up with the Monolith), Superior to average stats in every area, ATSKNF, The best psyker powers in the game, S 10 AP 2 blast templates (sometimes on a fast frame), Lots of good reliable antitank and anti-infantry, cheap, sturdy and self-repairing APCs, Melta and Plasma weapons galore. Effective assualt units, generally in jump packs to make them all the more effective. Ready power weapon/power fist availability. TH/SS granting 2+/3++ with ugly CC ability even against tanks, Drop Pods, Fast skimmers that are immune to Melta extra dice and can fire even when flat out (and can carry dreads, Venerable dreads, Infinite attack CC dreads that can kill a whole squad before they even get to swing back, Mephiston... Well you should get the general idea..

I've not covered the other races, as i've not personally played them, but it think you'll find that they also have some form of detractor to compensate for their good stuff.

ryanstartalker wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Yeah, apothecaries are so broken seeing how you can only take one per captain you take in your army, and even then are part of an expensive yet small squad. Marines are good at everything and great at nothing. Likewise they're weak against almost everything but won't melt like butter to most things short of a battlecannon. Marines are by no stretch of the imagination unbalanced or overpowered or whatever else you want to tack on there. Notice how Codex: Space Marines doesn't top the tournaments, and never really has. I'll agree that units like TH/SS Terminators with 3++ saves are tough as nails and there isn't a great way to kill them aside from a stupid amount of fire. The whole point of the army is well rounded statlines on tough models. Their killing power is where they lose some steam. 200 points of Tactical Marines is seldom going to cause as much damage as 200 points of Orks or well-armed Guardsmen.

And the fact that Codex: Space Wolves doesn't have ANY FNP whatsoever angers me more.

Lone Wolves.

Ascalam wrote:Even if you did put 200 tac marines against 200 orks or 200 guardsmen the marines would still win. The Marines would be well-armed too.

The point is not that 'Marines are broken, omg'. The point is that marines are good at everything, with no major achilles heel. Most, if not all, other armies out there have some kind of detractor to balance the things they are good at.

Necrons- Phase Out, Gimped I , No vehicle support beyond the Lith. No Melta, Plasma, Grenades etc. High Pts cost, Single troop type that's a poor man's tac marine. Vicious weakness to Sweeping. No transports.

Benefit: WBB, Marine statline, barring low I, Gauss weapons. The arguably best tank in the game.


Nids - Synapse, Lousy armour saves (barring MC's, No Vehicles (to hide troops in), No melta, very little plasma, Very little good antitank

Benefit: Some big, high wound MC's, massed horde at low pts cost, A few good Psyker powers.


Tau- Lousy statlines, No squad special weapons, precious little melta and plasma, slow skimmers with poor weaponry, Pathetic CC ability, even from their CC specialists. BS 3 on a shooting specialist army.

Benefit: Railguns, shoot and scoot suits


Orks: Lousy armour, lousy Ld, No powerweapons (powerklaws yes, PW no), melta, plasma, few grenades, most vehicles are fragile, no reliable S9 ranged weapons, pathetic BS, Random psyker powers with 1 in 6 of killing the psyker, pathetic I,

Benefit- Low pts costs, T4, furious charge, mob rule, waagh, Some good but very random units like SAG, Lootas, Deffrollas.


Dark Eldar - Fragile as hell vehicles, No large blast weapons that aren't a oneshot (afaik), lousy armour, generally.

Benefit- Poisoned EVERYTHING, fast as hell vehicles, lots of lance/disintegrator fire. High I. Shadow field/Flickerfields.


Marines - (including all flavors)

Moderately high pts values.

Benefit: The best armour in the game, the best continuous invulnerable saves in the game, massive vehicle support for almost any need, the best tank in the game (arguably, toss up with the Monolith), Superior to average stats in every area, ATSKNF, The best psyker powers in the game, S 10 AP 2 blast templates (sometimes on a fast frame), Lots of good reliable antitank and anti-infantry, cheap, sturdy and self-repairing APCs, Melta and Plasma weapons galore. Effective assualt units, generally in jump packs to make them all the more effective. Ready power weapon/power fist availability. TH/SS granting 2+/3++ with ugly CC ability even against tanks, Drop Pods, Fast skimmers that are immune to Melta extra dice and can fire even when flat out (and can carry dreads, Venerable dreads, Infinite attack CC dreads that can kill a whole squad before they even get to swing back, Mephiston... Well you should get the general idea..

I've not covered the other races, as i've not personally played them, but it think you'll find that they also have some form of detractor to compensate for their good stuff.

With a new codex coming out, I hope Matt Ward fixes those point costs. they're too damn high. I need to field more Space marines. Whoops, meant to say Space Ma-Necrons.

My Eldar Whoop-Chang Marines all the time. Sames as my old necron army did back at the beginning of 5th. Am I doing something wrong? Am I supposed to just lose when I see a Space Marine?

And I hate to tell you but Orks with their Massed Attacks could decimate 200 tac marines charge or no charge they still have way more attacks than you have 3+ saved rolls in CC. And most ork HQ can in fact take a power Weapon in the form of Burnas that can be used as a PW in CC.

Marines are tough I'll give you that. But their "Heel", so to speak, is that nothing they do is particularly spectacular when compared to the other armies specialist units. Also Tactical marines are a joke. Really! I have to take 10 Marines so that 4 of them can stand around a guy with a heavy weapon and the other 4 escort a melta gun around, Fantastic! I just love 180point flamers and meltas.

Necrons are good if you know how to play them, as is any army. Recently a good friend of mine whooped a GK player hard with his crons. So it really all depends on the player.

Alfhedil wrote:Necrons are good if you know how to play them, as is any army. Recently a good friend of mine whooped a GK player hard with his crons. So it really all depends on the player.

The argument is that Space Marines are great all around with all their bases covered equally, while the other races are amazing at one aspect and are atrocious at another. Anyone can win with any army and anyone can lose with any army. Luck and Skill are both necessary, but it helps having a well-rounded army good at most things when compared to an army with a high and a low.

The real problem, in my opinion, is people want the Necron Codex to come out, and thus complain.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grim - as the SA rule says, it doesnt represent you all being dead, necessarily, just so broken that you scatter and are unable to form a cohesive unit. There is PLENTY of examples of this happening IRL as well - once morale is gone to the point that you scatter, you are not an effective fighting force any longer. certainly not one that can be controlled by the player - hence the inability to control them, and their removal from the board.

However if its guard breaking from genestealers, then they probably have all been eaten....

Does not matter how it is represented in the game, the end result is exactly the same. Unless I was able to to do something to bring that "broken" unit back onto the board, it doesn't matter how it is represented.

Mr.Church13 wrote:My Eldar Whoop-Chang Marines all the time. Sames as my old necron army did back at the beginning of 5th. Am I doing something wrong? Am I supposed to just lose when I see a Space Marine?

And I hate to tell you but Orks with their Massed Attacks could decimate 200 tac marines charge or no charge they still have way more attacks than you have 3+ saved rolls in CC. And most ork HQ can in fact take a power Weapon in the form of Burnas that can be used as a PW in CC.

Marines are tough I'll give you that. But their "Heel", so to speak, is that nothing they do is particularly spectacular when compared to the other armies specialist units. Also Tactical marines are a joke. Really! I have to take 10 Marines so that 4 of them can stand around a guy with a heavy weapon and the other 4 escort a melta gun around, Fantastic! I just love 180point flamers and meltas.

I beat down Marines a fair bit too. It's not impossible. The fact remains that the do not have an exploitable flaw, like Synapse or Phase Out.

Even points orks vs marines, allowing for the fact that the marines will be carrying a flamer or two per unit to use on those orks before they hit combat, and will be in a metal box? Remember that force VS force isn't just about cc. Take shooting into account and the Marines have a decent edge, as few of those orks will make it to CC, and transporting them up cuts way down on those massed attacks.

Apparently you have a better codex than i do Wierdboyz can sometimes get a power weapon effect from their powers, but it's not reliable. Other than that only Big Meks get a burna option. Hardly 'most ork HQ's ' is it?

Any other army (barring Guard) have a 48'', S 9, AP 2 tank killer as standard hardware? How about tanks that can lob S 10 Ap 2 Large Blasts with a BS of 4? Not many armies can do that. How about tanks that mount multiple S 9, 48'' Ap 2 guns (some twinlinked, as if they needed to be..) ? Not so many of those around.

How about 2+ 3++ armoured troops with S 8 power weapons coming out of an AV 14 vehicle (all round) that counts as open topped when it comes to assaulting after a move, can multitarget two units and even fire and move if shaken and stunned. Any other army that can repair it's vehicles on a 2+ ? Any other army immune to being Swept (barring deamons), despite that fact their LD is lower than some other armies?

Yes, Tac marines aren't that great, compared to other marines. Now compare them to the base troops in other armies

You love 180 pt flamers and meltas? Good for you. I just adore 180 pt squads i'm required to take with NO flamers and meltas, or transports, grenades or hidden power-weapon/powerfists...

A squad of 30 boyz with shootas actually comes out better than ten marines shooting mathmatically. Plus you seem to be blinded by the fear of a simple 3+ save that you forget exactly how costly space marine equipment is when compared to other armies. You forget that for the so called weaknesses that you claim all the other races have that marines also suffer from lack of target saturation. Sure they may be tuff but if i only have to kill 30 or so of them im fine with that. And its very easy to pick out what needs to die when fighting marines.

I just dont see marines as the end all be all. They're fairly balanced in most repects and besides a few, super expensive mind you, shenanigans that the variants can pull off they arent that scary to most other races. (Well maybe the older codexes, but thats just a being dated thing not really a race as a whole kind of thing.)

Also i just started playing orks so forgive me on that one.

On topic though i really hope that this stuff is true about necrons. I'd love to pull these old fogeys out of storage and give them some personality.

Marines don't need target saturation like guard and orks, simply because there is less "more common" weaponry that will negate their save.

I.E. currently necrons have only 3 weapons that can negate a marines save in shooting (Not counting the Nightbringers ranged shot). One of them is on a vehicle, another on an HQ (and the tomb spyder if you opt for it), and the last is a horribly priced heavy choice unit.

Now pit a necron army against guard and see how many weapons will break through their armor save. All of them? Except maybe the few tougher models with a 4+ save so the warriors can't shoot 'em dead and bypass armor.

Or, for your sake, look at orks. Unless you take upgrades and pit elite choices against our troop choice, you still pretty much have every weapon breaking through an armor save.

Same is said against necrons, currently, I hear ya. Though not for long, with them supposedly going 4+ save. I'm just pointing something out. The marines "standard" is everyone else's elite/HQ/upgrade unit.

If you pit any of these armies against one another and not marines though, then you really have some variance and a good fight. But everyone, every single army that isn't a marine codex, suffers the same against a marine army.

A squad of 30 boyz will be footsloggiing across the battlefield under fire, with a 6+ save. You will not get all 30 into combat with another unit, or even into shooting range. They can outgun a marine squad of 10 with good rolls, but mathematically if they are within rapid-fire range the marines have the edge. Also marine guns can detonate trukks just fine, and ignore the ork armour, whereas ork shootas will lose 2/3 of the hits on marine armour.

I am aware of the cost of marine equipment. I mentioned them in my comment that they have moderately high points values per model. There are units out there that have higher points costs for worse statlines/equipment.

Marines are an elite force, true, but they can saturate the target better than many other armies, between vindicators, whirlwind and devestators for the heavy stuff massed bolt fires, heavy bolters, flamers and plasma/melta for anything else.

I don't consider Marines the be all and end all. GW seems to. They are markedly superior for the points that other troops, barring a few undereffective/overcosted units.

You will be fighting less marines at a point level than you would for most other armies, but that doesn't stop them from still being superior to the average in every way, with the advantages i listed above. You'd be fighting even less necrons than marines, for example, but there isn't really anyone who would claim a necron warrior is superior to a Marine. that i've met. Marines also don't just cease to be if you kill 3/4 of them.

It is easy to pick out what needs to die vs Marines, quite true. It generally is harder to kill it than to decide it needs to die, especially if you have no access to Lance weapons or long-range guns

You're forgiven. I would love orks to have more powerweapon access, but since you'll be going last anyway i guess a powerklaw makes more sense ...

Run your ork force at a marine force with a landraider crusader or two, then see if you don't think Marines are a PITA. I struggle vs my usual SW opponent with orks, though they are such a blast to play

I hope the rumors are true (well, most of them) as i play Necrons now, but 5th really stuck the boot in...

Kurgash wrote:

ryanstartalker wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Yeah, apothecaries are so broken seeing how you can only take one per captain you take in your army, and even then are part of an expensive yet small squad. Marines are good at everything and great at nothing. Likewise they're weak against almost everything but won't melt like butter to most things short of a battlecannon. Marines are by no stretch of the imagination unbalanced or overpowered or whatever else you want to tack on there. Notice how Codex: Space Marines doesn't top the tournaments, and never really has. I'll agree that units like TH/SS Terminators with 3++ saves are tough as nails and there isn't a great way to kill them aside from a stupid amount of fire. The whole point of the army is well rounded statlines on tough models. Their killing power is where they lose some steam. 200 points of Tactical Marines is seldom going to cause as much damage as 200 points of Orks or well-armed Guardsmen.

And the fact that Codex: Space Wolves doesn't have ANY FNP whatsoever angers me more.

Lone Wolves.

Which would count towards personal equipment that is nothing near what other armies call "FNP"...

ryanstartalker wrote:
Which would count towards personal equipment that is nothing near what other armies call "FNP"...

omg! a space marine doesnt have fnp! an army has something over sm's! omg, rewrite the codex! now

wow whats with all the sm hate. Especially vanillia sm, yes they do not have any clear weakness other than cost and effectiveness at any particular role (barring certain units) but they aren't that great. Yes necrons will loose often/everytime to TH/SS termies unless we have a C'tan and we really do not like blood angels near army wide FNP. But they are not the worse thing in the world. We also hate twin linked railguns, an army of poison shots that can kill our C'tan/warriors pretty quickly. Strong breezes (as long as they are assault oriented )

Also have to get up at 3:30 tomorrow, so maybe grumpy over that. Sorry ya'll

tiekwando wrote:wow whats with all the sm hate. Especially vanillia sm, yes they do not have any clear weakness other than cost and effectiveness at any particular role (barring certain units) but they aren't that great. Yes necrons will loose often/everytime to TH/SS termies unless we have a C'tan and we really do not like blood angels near army wide FNP. But they are not the worse thing in the world. We also hate twin linked railguns, an army of poison shots that can kill our C'tan/warriors pretty quickly. Strong breezes (as long as they are assault oriented )

Also have to get up at 3:30 tomorrow, so maybe grumpy over that. Sorry ya'll

i dont hate space marines, i play ba. i just hate arguments of "they have X ability so i need it too" or " they have X ability so i need Y to counter it". this is my defence of my last post.

ryanstartalker wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

ryanstartalker wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Yeah, apothecaries are so broken seeing how you can only take one per captain you take in your army, and even then are part of an expensive yet small squad. Marines are good at everything and great at nothing. Likewise they're weak against almost everything but won't melt like butter to most things short of a battlecannon. Marines are by no stretch of the imagination unbalanced or overpowered or whatever else you want to tack on there. Notice how Codex: Space Marines doesn't top the tournaments, and never really has. I'll agree that units like TH/SS Terminators with 3++ saves are tough as nails and there isn't a great way to kill them aside from a stupid amount of fire. The whole point of the army is well rounded statlines on tough models. Their killing power is where they lose some steam. 200 points of Tactical Marines is seldom going to cause as much damage as 200 points of Orks or well-armed Guardsmen.

And the fact that Codex: Space Wolves doesn't have ANY FNP whatsoever angers me more.

Lone Wolves.

Which would count towards personal equipment that is nothing near what other armies call "FNP"...

Lol wut? You said SW have no FnP. I gave you a unit that does. Where does that fall in personal equipment?

If the necrons are no longer under the C'tans thumb things must have really changed! So the fluff for that must be wierd and wonderful!

I heard a rumor saying there will be big "Titan" like C'tan for Apocolypse though which would be awesome!

The fluff... is everyone's worst nightmare for now, given the fact we know who is writing the codex...
And, excuse me, but what was that about Vampire Counts second wave in August? Does that have any chance of pushing back Necrons even more? I mean, after SoB now there are other armies popping up in line in front of our metal friends?

Dark Eldar....Necrons..Dark Eldar..Necrons...Dark Necrons...Wait..

Kurgash wrote:Lol wut? You said SW have no FnP. I gave you a unit that does. Where does that fall in personal equipment?

Sorry if I'm not clear enough; it's just that FnP works in a much larger scale in any other armies that indeed have FnP than SW's does. Lone Wolves. Do you really fill your elite slots with these individual fighters when there're Wolf Scouts to take?

angelshade00 wrote:And, excuse me, but what was that about Vampire Counts second wave in August? Does that have any chance of pushing back Necrons even more? I mean, after SoB now there are other armies popping up in line in front of our metal friends?

Considering that the White Dwarf page clearly states that the Sisters Dwarfdex and the Vampire Counts Second Wave material are being released at the same time, no, it doesn't have a realistic chance of "pushing the Necrons back" (though it's highly arguable whether or not they were ever planned for an August release in the first place).

Dats true. Still annoying

All I have to say is I'd rather wait until October/November for a full codex than get a WD dex in July/August.

FalkorsRaiders wrote:All I have to say is I'd rather wait until October/November for a full codex than get a WD dex in July/August.

+1. I'd rather buy a codex and models in November than buy 2 issues of WD over 2 months, not get models, and expect a long wait till the actual codex.

The WD codex wouldn't effect the timing of a real codex at all however.

Mar wrote:The WD codex wouldn't effect the timing of a real codex at all however.

But its existence implies that the real thing will be a while coming. The WD codex doesn't literally effect it, but it lets us know we've got a wait ahead of us.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Mar wrote:The WD codex wouldn't effect the timing of a real codex at all however.

But its existence implies that the real thing will be a while coming. The WD codex doesn't literally effect it, but it lets us know we've got a wait ahead of us.

I don't think WD impacts the releases of codexes, but I believe that GW wouldn't release both very close, and would leave a month or two between releases. Besides, with all the talk on the Sister's threads, do you think they'd rather have a WD release, or a full-fledged release? I'm just glad that the rumors only say Necrons will get a full update.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Mar wrote:The WD codex wouldn't effect the timing of a real codex at all however.

But its existence implies that the real thing will be a while coming. The WD codex doesn't literally effect it, but it lets us know we've got a wait ahead of us.

If nothing else, it pushes back the WD where they focus on the Necron release. Sisters in August and Septemeber's WD, the earliest we'd have a focus on Necrons would be October. With Ogre Kingdoms supposed to get an army book release about that time too... well. Seems more likely that October's WD will be Ogres and November will be Necrons.

That is unless people think that they'll fit a codex AND a intro section into the same issue. Since it is their only way of hyping the new releases, I doubt that they'll double up like that.

Some caveats, I have never bought a WD, and have thumbed through only a couple. What is common sense to me may not be common sense to you or GW. GW hasn't been making business decisions that follow 'conventional wisdom' recently, either.

ryanstartalker wrote:

Kurgash wrote:Lone Wolves.

Which would count towards personal equipment that is nothing near what other armies call "FNP"...

I don't think he means the Fenrisian Wolves characters can take as pets, but rather the Elite characters called "Lone Wolves", Marines which wander the battlefield alone looking for a glorious death. And with FNP.

Edit: nevermind, thought you had misunderstood what he was talking about, saw the clarification after.

SkaerKrow wrote:

angelshade00 wrote:And, excuse me, but what was that about Vampire Counts second wave in August? Does that have any chance of pushing back Necrons even more? I mean, after SoB now there are other armies popping up in line in front of our metal friends?

Considering that the White Dwarf page clearly states that the Sisters Dwarfdex and the Vampire Counts Second Wave material are being released at the same time, no, it doesn't have a realistic chance of "pushing the Necrons back" (though it's highly arguable whether or not they were ever planned for an August release in the first place).

You have a point, this is after all the news & rumors section, so anything, even Necrons are still rumors. But still, it is annoying. How much longer to wait I wonder...

Indeed Necrons for November at the earliest and do not forget the rumours that believed Necrons to be pushed back to next year.

Edit: also I read somewhere the rumour that no more 40k armies for this year also would fit this possibility.

Mar wrote:Edit: also I read somewhere the rumour that no more 40k armies for this year also would fit this possibility.

I find that rumor most..... displeasing.

Mar wrote:Also I read somewhere the rumour that no more 40k armies for this year also would fit this possibility.

Then fires and brimstone shall reign upon Nottingham, and the minions of the damned shall claim their souls for the throne of the infernal demons of Hell.

Or I'll be slightly annoyed, pot-ay-toe pot-ah-toe.

angelshade00 wrote: But still, it is annoying. How much longer to wait I wonder...

Oh, I agree. It would be nice if Games Workshop made Necrons, perhaps the army bludgeoned the hardest by the changes in 5th Edition, more of a priority.

Mar wrote:Edit: also I read somewhere the rumour that no more 40k armies for this year also would fit this possibility.

I don't find that rumor to be at all credible. GW wouldn't go six months without a major Warhammer 40k release. They have to keep profits up, and when it comes to sales (this statement is only about sales numbers, not about the games themselves!), 40k apparently tramples Warhammer Fantasy.

SkaerKrow wrote:

angelshade00 wrote: But still, it is annoying. How much longer to wait I wonder...

Oh, I agree. It would be nice if Games Workshop made Necrons, perhaps the army bludgeoned the hardest by the changes in 5th Edition, more of a priority.

Mar wrote:Edit: also I read somewhere the rumour that no more 40k armies for this year also would fit this possibility.

I don't find that rumor to be at all credible. GW wouldn't go six months without a major Warhammer 40k release. They have to keep profits up, and when it comes to sales (this statement is only about sales numbers, not about the games themselves!), 40k apparently tramples Warhammer Fantasy.

I completely agree a logical argument but then you have the argument of how logical GW are. Here is hoping for november I think.

angelshade00 wrote:The fluff... is everyone's worst nightmare for now, given the fact we know who is writing the codex...
And, excuse me, but what was that about Vampire Counts second wave in August? Does that have any chance of pushing back Necrons even more? I mean, after SoB now there are other armies popping up in line in front of our metal friends?

<click> "POW!!!" < ring ring ring> "hello 911, yeah my husband just shot himself in the face over some stupid game..."

ryanstartalker wrote:

Kurgash wrote:Lol wut? You said SW have no FnP. I gave you a unit that does. Where does that fall in personal equipment?

Sorry if I'm not clear enough; it's just that FnP works in a much larger scale in any other armies that indeed have FnP than SW's does. Lone Wolves. Do you really fill your elite slots with these individual fighters when there're Wolf Scouts to take?

again, so what? you dont have fnp. so does my eldar army. and my tau i used to run if i remember correctly. personally i dont want every army to have all the same rules as everyone else, it loses variety.

Wow I am extremely dissappointed...

Having Necron (were my first and still favorite until this upcoming release I suspect), Tyranid, Eldar and Space Wolve armies the 3+ armor save and monolith's ability to pull them out of close combat (and give additional WBB roll) are the only things that made Necron's competitive at all... As often as I fail the 4+ WBB (far, far, far, far more than I make it) With the proliferation of vehicles and jump troops that close the gaps rapidly and get units into assault in 1-2nd turn makes the Necrons, if their rules end up matching this thread, WEAKER than they are with their current codex...

You can dress up a pig with lots of pretty fluff, but it's still a pig.

Clearly GW still just says a big FU to the non-human armies and players...

Here is the golden rule for non-human armies, buy them because you enjoy the models, but don't expect them to be competitive against IG/Space Wolves on a regular basis. Sure anyone can beat anyone on any given day, but when the luck, skill and tactics are all equal the non-humans will lose every time. My 'nids do win, though not as often as my ancient Necrons (sad that Necrons at present are a far better army than current codex 'Nids, but it looks like they will fix that oversight and make them as bad as 'Nids), but I want to feel like I have a chance in every game it's still all about Space Marines, IG, etc...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a such a slap in the face. People should be pissed. With a 2 Initiative 4+ at 12 points they are still OVER PRICED if you are locked into taking 10+ as before. Since there is a Space Marine army that pretty much is entirely with FNP you can't say the 5+ new WBB makes up for the armor drop.

Because they are going to get WIPED every time in close combat you need to be able to take SMALLER SQUADS, e.g. space marines & fire warriors have a 5 minimum, so you can split them up and keep your troops alive longer. Losing close combat went from 90% of the time to now 99% of the time...

Also with Wraiths and Flayed One didn't get any sort of Power Weapon or Rending option they might as well just remove them from the codex.



"13) Necron Warriors have the same basic statline they had before except they now have a 4+ save. Now before you go crazy, also note that their points cost is 12 points, which is a 1/3 price drop (down from 18 points). That means you get 1/3 more Warrior models in the army for the same amount of points...it also makes losing an entire unit due to sweeping advance, not nearly as painful.

I know a lot of cynical people will hate this and accuse GW from simply making the change to sell more Warrior models, and you could be right. But personally I was always hoping they were going to make Necron Warriors not quite as tough and dump the points cost on them, so you could really take a ton of them...given in my mind they are supposed to be more like a shambling horde of undead robots than some sort of small elite force of super-warriors (but that could just be me).

So this change alone totally changes the army from out of the 'MEQ' umbrella and makes their base statline unique in the game (which is good, IMHO). "

KarlPedder wrote:Actually SA makes perfect sense and isn't illogical in the slightest, Fearless needed to be altered because of the ability to lock units in combat for an entire game. The problem was that putting the same downside from fearless onto ATSKNF without any additional nerf made it better than fearless and considering the ridiculous amount of SM players it's all the worse.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grim - as the SA rule says, it doesnt represent you all being dead, necessarily, just so broken that you scatter and are unable to form a cohesive unit. There is PLENTY of examples of this happening IRL as well - once morale is gone to the point that you scatter, you are not an effective fighting force any longer. certainly not one that can be controlled by the player - hence the inability to control them, and their removal from the board.

However if its guard breaking from genestealers, then they probably have all been eaten....

And that's fine for representing Boyz, maybe IG Infantry etc but it shouldn't be the "normal" way for trained professional soldiers to react when losing combat - from my limited point of view having never actually had to fight for my life - for example should Necron Warriors, IG Storm Troopers or Chaos Space Marines be wiped out in combat in this way? Hell no! ATSKNF, or an equivalent, should be the norm and therefore reflected in the main rulebook and not just one single army type (loyalist MEQ).
I would say that you should then have a "Fearfull" sort of rule for lesser combatants and probably two types of Fearless to reflect the difference between Bezerker type fearless units and Mindless type fearless units which do whatever their master tells them regardless of the personnal consequences.

Gauss Nerf too! Space Marines have missle launchers and twin linked las cannons. DEldar get a Dark Lances and Disintegrators and POISON. Tau, well they get their entire Codex. IG, yeah we know how much high STR weaponry they have. Tyranids have poison. Essentially every codex has Monstrous Creature killing cheese, Necron's had a 6+ poison essentially, that's effectively what Gauss was. Ok it was poison that worked on vehicles, but poison non-the-less. Now? Ok it will still work on vehicles, but monstrous creatures will really, really tough to kill now... It sounds like they are watering down those few parts of the Necron codex that were effective.

At least I started a Space Wolves army so I can remain competitive, because clearly the Necrons are going down to bottom of the barrel...

Tampa - erm, you havent seen the codex. These are rumours. Sky is falling doom laden posts are about the least sensible reactions to any of this.

You only wounded monstrous creatures on 6s previous, assuming they were toughness 5+. You realise this makes NO difference to you excpet for the ONE SINGLE T8 MC in the game? Sheesh, talk about overracting bout a change which has an incredibly limited practical effect.

Also:I assume you missed space clown circus and their raping of the game for 18 months? Monstermash? JSJ Tau? Non-marine armies have all had their time in the spotlight, get over yourself.

Grim - so you should have no SA effectively then? Its what your post boils down to.

Ok having been in the Marine Corp this comment about SA is ridiculous. There are dozens of Medal of Honor, Silver Star medal holders who single handily held back or defeated larger forces or rallied a broken squad turning defeat into victory. SA is by far the worst rule in the game.

I have lost a full squad of 20 necrons after taking only 1 wound, so 19 to SA, because i happen to have rulled a 10 (10-1=9) on a leadership test, followed by a 4 (for an 6) while the SM rolled a mere 2 or 3. Unit gone 360 points unit wiped for taking one wound from a 5 man tactical marine squad that probably cost about 125 or so with gear. If that had happened only once I'd be ecstatic, but no it happens in every game. I've lost unwounded Necron Lords with Destroyer Bodies, Warscythes and Res Orbs to this stupid rule too many times to count...


Then again the Assault rules in 40k are all stupid. Here's an example of how f'ing slowed it is. This is a true story of what happened in a tournament I was playing: Swarm Lord with 1 remaining Tyrant Guard with Lash Whips were annhiliating everything that was dumb enough to get close to them. However, a clever player assaults with a 10 man squad of basic tactical marines, they string out enough to Multi-assault a squad of Termigants that had been acting as a "moving cover save" for the Swarmlord (due to this Infantry Tyrant Guards) and I had moved the Termigants back (at least 6") once the Swarmlord got his business on obliterating Terminators and the Chapter Master. So ok this squad of basic marines, not even assault marines, multi-assaults the termigants and the Swarm Lord (who was in base contact with a remaining Terminator that he obiliterated). They put as many attacks as possible on the Termigants. I had to make 9 Fearless Saves, needless to say a punk squad of tactical marines did what 2 5 man term squads, a chapter commander and an apothecary could not... That's just ridiculous...

Grim.Badger wrote:

KarlPedder wrote:Actually SA makes perfect sense and isn't illogical in the slightest, Fearless needed to be altered because of the ability to lock units in combat for an entire game. The problem was that putting the same downside from fearless onto ATSKNF without any additional nerf made it better than fearless and considering the ridiculous amount of SM players it's all the worse.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grim - as the SA rule says, it doesnt represent you all being dead, necessarily, just so broken that you scatter and are unable to form a cohesive unit. There is PLENTY of examples of this happening IRL as well - once morale is gone to the point that you scatter, you are not an effective fighting force any longer. certainly not one that can be controlled by the player - hence the inability to control them, and their removal from the board.

However if its guard breaking from genestealers, then they probably have all been eaten....

And that's fine for representing Boyz, maybe IG Infantry etc but it shouldn't be the "normal" way for trained professional soldiers to react when losing combat - from my limited point of view having never actually had to fight for my life - for example should Necron Warriors, IG Storm Troopers or Chaos Space Marines be wiped out in combat in this way? Hell no! ATSKNF, or an equivalent, should be the norm and therefore reflected in the main rulebook and not just one single army type (loyalist MEQ).
I would say that you should then have a "Fearfull" sort of rule for lesser combatants and probably two types of Fearless to reflect the difference between Bezerker type fearless units and Mindless type fearless units which do whatever their master tells them regardless of the personnal consequences.

Tampa - and? You're playing a game that is an abstraction.

Those lone guys succeeding over overwhelming odds? Called rolling a double 1 on your leadership test. Etc.

SO you got schooled in tactics by someone who knew the rules better than you? You must have seen the multiassault coming, right?

I have 4 armies at present, Necron, Tyranid, Eldar and Space Wolves... Necrons were first and favorite. Groups I play with run Orks, Dark Eldar, one Sister player, 2 Tau players and then a crap ton of Space Marines...

Space Marines and IG are soooooo far and away better, now having a Space Marine army and seeing both sides it is beyond question.

Necrons were originally the non-human Space Marine equivilant. That was the function and purpose. Now they are taking them towards being less effective Tau.

Non-humans NEED a SM Equivilant army. Just one. I don't care who it is, but there needs to be one... There had been a lot of hope that the Necron's would be upgrade to remain that, so that's why the "sky is falling doom laden posts."

Orks are unquestionably the best non-human army, but they aren't really a SPE as they are typically a horde army, though they can do the mech lists too.

However, there is nothing that we who prefer non-humans can grab onto as the "standard" and who can compete when all other factors are equal to the Space Marines. Not even talking about IG. IG are on a level all their own...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tampa - erm, you havent seen the codex. These are rumours. Sky is falling doom laden posts are about the least sensible reactions to any of this.

You only wounded monstrous creatures on 6s previous, assuming they were toughness 5+. You realise this makes NO difference to you excpet for the ONE SINGLE T8 MC in the game? Sheesh, talk about overracting bout a change which has an incredibly limited practical effect.

Also:I assume you missed space clown circus and their raping of the game for 18 months? Monstermash? JSJ Tau? Non-marine armies have all had their time in the spotlight, get over yourself.

Grim - so you should have no SA effectively then? Its what your post boils down to.

Grim.Badger wrote:And that's fine for representing Boyz, maybe IG Infantry etc but it shouldn't be the "normal" way for trained professional soldiers to react when losing combat - from my limited point of view having never actually had to fight for my life - for example should Necron Warriors, IG Storm Troopers or Chaos Space Marines be wiped out in combat in this way? Hell no! ATSKNF, or an equivalent, should be the norm and therefore reflected in the main rulebook and not just one single army type (loyalist MEQ).

Professional Soldier or not when you turn tail and run from a melee engagement chances are your dead and yes even the best soldiers are effected by morale and seeing your more of your squad mates die is going to reduce your morale...

No they were in a Transport vehicle that had been going towards an objective as it was objective based game...

So their doubling back to take on a FAR SUPERIOR foe could not have been expected. The smart play was to take the objective as it was the end of turn four and being Tyranids with no vehicles I'd have had no way to get there.

It was a bad idea that ended up working because of a broken rule system...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tampa - and? You're playing a game that is an abstraction.

Those lone guys succeeding over overwhelming odds? Called rolling a double 1 on your leadership test. Etc.

SO you got schooled in tactics by someone who knew the rules better than you? You must have seen the multiassault coming, right?

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And yes after reading these rumors and a couple other sites I am very down on the upcoming Necron release. Me and the other non-human army players have been praying to the Ominssah for SOMETHING that would be the SME for soooooo long. Necrons originally were the NH SME so we had put a lot of hope that they would remain so. So yes there is some frustrations pouring out atm... So I apologize, but I really shouldn't be surprized as GW is a really malignant company, but here we all are dolling out thousands upon thousands of dollars on it... As I've said I have 4 armies (3 I paid for and 1 I got dropped in my lap, Eldar) and I can field 4500-5000 APOC in all three of the ones I have purchased... So yeah I'm tired of getting smacked in the face by GW when it comes to NH armies, especially my beloved Necrons...

Sigh.

None of the "big" NH have had a proper 5th ed release, apart from Tyranids.

You have a lack of perspective,a glaring one, that ignores history. ELdar, Tau and Necron have all roflstomped SM equivalent armies in their time, and doubtless will change how armies play yet again when they get a 5th edition update. Currently DE rape standard SM, and worry the "standard" space wolf setup (as they can get to the long fangs easily, and T5 thunderwolves are meaningless to poison weaponry) - and can even hold their own against IG.

Sky is falling posts based on rumours, that also contradict the more thought out posts (which you clearly missed, but to be fair its a 60+ page thread!) which actually analyse the changes and work out how they fit into an overall MUCH stronger army,

Finally: it was a superior foe by itself. You made an error in not spotting the NR! danger, one which is WELL publicised and known about, and easy to defend against. You left yourself in charge range of (presumably) a LR full of tac marines and didnt spot this? Then you got outmanouvered. Sorry, plain and simply they used the rules to their advantage, whcih is the point of a game.

Indeed at the end of the day it is impossible with how little we have which is not even confirmed I might add to suggest that Necrons are nerfed or buffed. Sure armour save is moving from 3+ to 4+ but you do not know what else is happening to them really in the big picture...

Evaluating a Codex release five months before the book comes out, based solely on a single rules change examined in a vacuum, is pure folly.

Hey, remember when this thread used to be about necron rumours?
Neither do I...

Given the current lack of rumours/news for this thread I'm going to move it over to 40k general. As/when we get some more info we can start a new thread on the News and Rumour board and refer/cut and paste to/from this one.

If I recall correctly, there was a BOLS article this past January with 'cryptic rumours' for the upcoming year. In that I remember reading about undead warriors coming out near all hallows eve.

If that rumor was in any way accurate that means Halloween we'll see a Necron's release, since release days are the first saturday of the month I"m going to go ahead and say November 5 is a likely day for a new codex, but we won't get the INCOMING for it until October 29. Just guessing, I'd like the book sooner as much as anyone.

TampaSatyr wrote:
Orks are unquestionably the best non-human army, but they aren't really a SPE as they are typically a horde army, though they can do the mech lists too.

And along comes AlmightyWalrus and points out that your "unquestionable" claim is wrong, as the Dark Eldar ar certainly capable of going one-on-one (so to speak) with all the 5th ed armies, arguably faring better than the Orks.

TampaSatyr wrote:Gauss Nerf too! Space Marines have missle launchers and twin linked las cannons. DEldar get a Dark Lances and Disintegrators and POISON. Tau, well they get their entire Codex. IG, yeah we know how much high STR weaponry they have. Tyranids have poison. Essentially every codex has Monstrous Creature killing cheese, Necron's had a 6+ poison essentially, that's effectively what Gauss was. Ok it was poison that worked on vehicles, but poison non-the-less. Now? Ok it will still work on vehicles, but monstrous creatures will really, really tough to kill now... It sounds like they are watering down those few parts of the Necron codex that were effective.

At least I started a Space Wolves army so I can remain competitive, because clearly the Necrons are going down to bottom of the barrel...

Probably in 6th they will bring in the rule where you can wound something on a 6 regardless like in 8th edition fantasy so in the Necron codex it would be redundant.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TampaSatyr wrote:
Orks are unquestionably the best non-human army, but they aren't really a SPE as they are typically a horde army, though they can do the mech lists too.

And along comes AlmightyWalrus and points out that your "unquestionable" claim is wrong, as the Dark Eldar ar certainly capable of going one-on-one (so to speak) with all the 5th ed armies, arguably faring better than the Orks.

Agreed. DE are far better than Orks, who essentially have one list - run across in a Deff rolla BW, pray the KFF holds, and puinch people as quickly as you can.

KarlPedder wrote:

Grim.Badger wrote:And that's fine for representing Boyz, maybe IG Infantry etc but it shouldn't be the "normal" way for trained professional soldiers to react when losing combat - from my limited point of view having never actually had to fight for my life - for example should Necron Warriors, IG Storm Troopers or Chaos Space Marines be wiped out in combat in this way? Hell no! ATSKNF, or an equivalent, should be the norm and therefore reflected in the main rulebook and not just one single army type (loyalist MEQ).

Professional Soldier or not when you turn tail and run from a melee engagement chances are your dead and yes even the best soldiers are effected by morale and seeing your more of your squad mates die is going to reduce your morale...

You mean like WW1 where morale was constantly rock bottom and you got to see thousands of you mates die? and troops still moved forwards. There are examples of troops withstanding crippling attacks in both shooting and CC circumstances throughout history and standing their ground, or falling back to the next cover and reforming; it's what trained soldiers do, not something that should be a SM special rule.
I'm not saying SA has no place in the game, but it really shouldn't be "the norm" given that the vast majority of the units in the game are career soldiers.

And the Swarm Lord taking 9 fearless wounds when the Marines hadn't scratched it is just plain dumb, the "everyone in the combat" part of the fearless rule needs to go at the very least. I don't like taking 15 fearless wounds on my Scarabs, but I can live with it, but taking another 15 on anything else in the same combat because an MC has killed 5 scarab bases is ludicrous and unjustified. I know the way around it is to not let anything else be in the same combat, but you shouldn't have to work around broken rules.

Agreed with Grim.Badger. Its the part in which every freaking squad takes the same ammount of fearless saves that needs to go.

Grim - so, that would be them rolling "double 1" a lot.

this game does not, in any way shape or form, attempt to simulate real life. If you want something a little more realistic than giant GM knights firing mini gyrojet rockets at space elves shouting loudly at you, then maybe this is the wrong game for you. Are you suggesting that only sides that took any damage take NR!? So youve added more book keeping to a game theyre deliberately engineering to rmeove as much bookkeeping as they can. Or, in other words, you've missed the point of the way 40k has been designed in 5th edition.

Also guard have a mechanic for the fallback and regroup - see their Orders.

In other words: I see this gripe about NR! a lot, and it isnt difficult to learn to avoid or mitigate the effects of it. It also makes Fearless have an actual downside, as compared to 4th when it was all gravy.

Grim.Badger wrote:You mean like WW1 where morale was constantly rock bottom and you got to see thousands of you mates die? and troops still moved forwards. There are examples of troops withstanding crippling attacks in both shooting and CC circumstances throughout history and standing their ground, or falling back to the next cover and reforming; it's what trained soldiers do, not something that should be a SM special rule.
I'm not saying SA has no place in the game, but it really shouldn't be "the norm" given that the vast majority of the units in the game are career soldiers.

I know that World War I was a brutal, nasty conflict, but those trained soldiers weren't fighting super humans armed with chainsaw swords, extra-galactic monstrosities, crazed walking tanks or the terrors of the Warp. Trained soldiers or not, the 40k universe throws things at you that are well beyond most of the dangers that we face in the real world. Beyond that, troops "falling back to cover and reforming" isn't always as simple as running twenty yards and hopping behind some sandbags to gather your wits. They may have fled much deeper into the trench network, or to an entirely different position entirely. Remember that troops that are destroyed in combat aren't always killed, they've simply forfeited that particular field of battle.


Nos, it wouldn't be particularly difficult to count the models removed as casualties during a combat in order to dictate how Fearless wounds are allocated ("I removed three Daemonettes, one Plaguebearer and suffered no wounds on my Daemon Prince. Therefore my Daemonettes take three Fearless wounds, my Plaguebearers take one and my Daemon Prince takes none."). I understand the need for No Retreat! in the rules, but its current incarnation doesn't make a whole lot of sense from either a logical or mechanical standpoint.

I understand we are all nerd raged,sad people since our lil metal men are currently in a pretty bad position and will prolly stay there for quite a while yet, but since this is a *NECRON* rumor thread I would like to please you: Do not make a Necron player who wants to read rumors or anything the Internet got to offer have to read 60 pages of Ward hate, SM hate, arguing about 40k Rules(SA or NR), or anything similar. I know im no member of this site or anything but PLEASE keep it on topic. You will make our lifes easier.Thanks

As for rumors, my lgs manager-owner told me that he was told that Necrons will probably get pushed back to 2012 since there is no 40k in summer. From what I think however there will be no 40k in automn either. (Ogres)
This fits perfect with the rumor that they(GW) are trying to boost Fantasy a lot.

NECRONS, sweeeeeeet


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if i have to wait till 2012 i will be ticked off

2012... OK who wants my models before i take the giant dump on them?

just kill me now please.

Dibs

I'll keep on playing underpowered, as underpowered may be better than fethed up beyond all recall..

I'll take sloppy seconds after Ascalam is finished taking what he wants

2012 pisses me off, now I'm definitely going to focus on my CSM and pretend that none of this happened and when Crons finally come out, I'll pretend it's something new and marvelous.

Skaer - mechanically it does make sense;

ALL units in the losing side take a morale check, - the number of wounds they lost by

ALL fearless units in the losing side take a number of fearless saves equal to the number of wounds they lost by

It represents the combat being a single entity, with 2 sides only. It simplifies the rules structure (same situation, either LD - difference of wounds = difference) which is the main aim of 5th

Keep piling all the Matt Ward hate that you want. He seems to write 'balanced' codices (from a game-play perspective). Necrons will be updated and decent players will be able to win with them again.

Salt, salt, where's the damn salt?!? ~ Jimmy Buffett
Rumors of this... fanboy wishes of that... What's pissing you off right now isn't worth the electrons it takes to make it appear on your screen! Just keep watching the back page of WD, and we'll find out relatively soonish. I mean, Necrons have been waiting YEARS for a codex...


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PS. Anyone serious about giving models away, I'll take them. I'm just starting my Necron army and I don't mind rejects!
'

As above.

In terms of making good codexes, with generally ok balance and a good selection of units and interesting rules / combos - Matt Ward is leagues ahead of either cruddace or PHils Space Wolves

The impression i got was that his codeces are pretty balanced and work well from a game point of view, but his Fluff can tend to be a little......lack lustre.....or crap.

Does sound like a good shift to make them a more competitive army, which is always a good thing! i hope i'll face a few armies using this codex, it'd be fun to play but my funds won't quite allow me to start another new army! D: look forward to seeing them on the battlefield though, imo the more necrons the better!

Ward's Codecies seem to be balanced when it comes to established units, but new units are a bit hit-and-miss; however so far I haven't seen one that is overpowered, just overcosted.

That bodes well for existing Necron Units and established players and hopefully means that you wont need a whole load of new models.

This sounds epic! Though im really disapointed pariahs are gone!

Remulus wrote:This sounds epic! Though im really disapointed pariahs are gone!

Eh, Pariahs looked good on paper, but they've been an overpriced speed bump IMHO.

King Pariah wrote:

Remulus wrote:This sounds epic! Though im really disapointed pariahs are gone!

Eh, Pariahs looked good on paper, but they've been an overpriced speed bump IMHO.

Doesn't mean they should be removed entirely, though. Everything else is getting reworked, might as well keep them around and make them work.
But then, for all we know they're just getting a new title.

King Pariah wrote:

Remulus wrote:This sounds epic! Though im really disapointed pariahs are gone!

Eh, Pariahs looked good on paper, but they've been an overpriced speed bump IMHO.

Mechanically, they can be fixed/reworked, so I can see no advantage in getting rid of one of the units with the greatest potential for characterization, something the Necrons need as a faction fluffwise. Not to mention, Pariahs, like Psykers, vary in power. The strongest are from what I hear capable of killing (Not banishing, KILLING) Greater Daemons, and there was in fact one Pariah who was speculated to be so strong his presence would have been capable of killing the Emperor.

Because I am far too lazy to read through 65 pages, would anyone mind informing this newbie of some of the rumours of the Necron codex? Necrons are my favorite faction and stuff, so am interested in what has been said about the upcoming codex. PAriahs being taken out is unfortunate though, IMO.

@Void_Dragon - Just read the first page, Yakface's post. That sums it up quite nicely, most of the other pages are matt ward hate and wishlisting.

Rumors are that Necrons are one of the first of the codices that is built for use with 6th edition. http://bloodofkittens.com/network/members/rideroftheerk/activity/14616/
Another part of that post rumors that the phases in a turn are changing to:
Prepare
Movement
Assault
Shooting
Consolidate

That makes a lot of sense with what Yakface was saying about the replacement for WWB taking place after moral checks (which are to happen during the Consolidate phase) rather than at the beginning of the next turn.

What this does this do to our problem with Sweeping Advance? Initially, I'd say that it makes them worse, but our CC units are rumored to get fearless (Wraiths, Scarabs, and Tomb Spyders).

Anyone else have an interpretation of Yakface's rumors in like of these 6th edition rumors?

... Assault before shoting? That doesn't make sense..

no it doesnt, but necrons are rulebreakers, I am very excited for the new codex!!!

necr0n wrote:... Assault before shoting? That doesn't make sense..

if this is true for 6th edition i will be sad. i mean, shooting before assault is just... smart. weaken em before you through your face at em.

That and Necron weapons are Rapid Fire.

If you want to do any shooting Assault is off the cards..

Though you have to admit, that would make it a bigger dichotomy between different 'types' of units. Orks, for example. Right now, Shootaboyz are 'better' because you can shoot with 2 shots before charging. If it's Assault before Shooting, then Shootaboyz and Sluggaboyz are going to be completely different. Also, the dynamics of Transports will change, a whole, whole lot. Combi-Meltas, and meltaguns in general, will be a lot less useful, since you won't be able to 'pop' a transport, then assault the contents. If you want to pop transports, you'll need to either use a separate unit, or be willing to get charged next round, unless you could charge, melee pop a transport, then shoot the disembarked passengers?

I think it's mostly just a bigger risk/reward, and encourages greater unit synergy. I might have to try and get someone to play a game that way sometime, see how it goes.

I dont like the new Gauss rules or that a C'tan is in elites and is less special. As much as i love the necrons Im not sure immortals as troops is quite fair.

All the new special characters and transports is awsome. Scarabs look like they'r gonna be super fun.

It looks like Necrons will be a popular and powerful army once again.

Ascalam wrote:That and Necron weapons are Rapid Fire.

If you want to do any shooting Assault is off the cards..

which is fine for tau and eldar atm, necrons too. armies where assault isnt a strong point even when weakening your opponent.

Anvildude wrote:Though you have to admit, that would make it a bigger dichotomy between different 'types' of units. Orks, for example. Right now, Shootaboyz are 'better' because you can shoot with 2 shots before charging. If it's Assault before Shooting, then Shootaboyz and Sluggaboyz are going to be completely different. Also, the dynamics of Transports will change, a whole, whole lot. Combi-Meltas, and meltaguns in general, will be a lot less useful, since you won't be able to 'pop' a transport, then assault the contents. If you want to pop transports, you'll need to either use a separate unit, or be willing to get charged next round, unless you could charge, melee pop a transport, then shoot the disembarked passengers?

I think it's mostly just a bigger risk/reward, and encourages greater unit synergy. I might have to try and get someone to play a game that way sometime, see how it goes.

30 ork boyz shoot with pistols and then assault is still more effective then just 30 boyz assaulting. it really doesnt matter on the army tbh. shootaboyz or no, your still losing a big advantage. i see it more as, there will be alot more shooting armies, going by the current codex options. until a codex is updated to assault then shoot, shooting will be more effective since its harder to lose your own units on your own turn.

I am admittedly not keen on the rumors of the changes to the C'tan fluff at all, nor am I liking them being demoted to Elite units. I never thought they should be useable in games to begin with, to be honest.

Pariahs being gone is similarly lame.

Meh... Will wait until the codex comes out until I do anything like jump on the Ward-hate bandwagon.

Maybe You will be able to fire Assault Weapons on the Assault Phase.

Who would use Pistols or Flamers if you have to stand there and take a charge after using them.

Tyrs13 wrote:Maybe You will be able to fire Assault Weapons on the Assault Phase.

Who would use Pistols or Flamers if you have to stand there and take a charge after using them.

exactly. i mean, unless your THAT good at cc with defence grenades.

Void__Dragon wrote:I am admittedly not keen on the rumors of the changes to the C'tan fluff at all, nor am I liking them being demoted to Elite units. I never thought they should be useable in games to begin with, to be honest.

Pariahs being gone is similarly lame.

Meh... Will wait until the codex comes out until I do anything like jump on the Ward-hate bandwagon.

It's matt ward. Anything that sounds stupid, fluff-altering, dumb, insulting and stupid is probably true. The guy probably wipes his own butt with pages of old awesome, amazing and respectable fluff.

Also, 6th edition rumors sound fake for 2 reasons:
Conflict with the rumor that the starter set won't include "warriors of roboute gullyman" which I take to mean all marines, not just ultramarines but tis still possible.
MASSIVE faq project to bring current codicies up to date.
Seriously? Guys, guys.... guys... I'm sure you're all aware of how slow GW is when it comes to releasing FAQs. It took 3 months for the DE FAQ to come out and almost as long for GK dex to come out. There are ONLY 12 months in the year. And not to mention the amount of time it took them to release an FAQ that updated Black Templars and Dark Angel's common imperial wargear to 5e stats.
I highly REALLY SERIOUSLY PERILOUSLY do not believe that GW is capable of this.

True terranarc GW is Slow to do anything ...
But i believe in their stupidity is in even more excess.

They could very well screw the Faq overhaul and make you wait 3 years for your Faq to come out after the release.

They did say Black Templar though so there are SM ... even still they may want to make a big thing with the SM Codex the following month or hell take the entire next Year to praise it.

None of the above would surprise me ....

But also note every 4-5 years we get a new Rule Set.
(Check the Release Dates 5th was 2008)

No phase out=Hell Yeah
Nerfed WBB=Wha...?
No Pariahs=Whah!!!

C'tan as customisable elites make no sense
oh well, hopefully the dex will make us able to make the similar to the 4 (especially Nightbringer)

terranarc wrote:
It's matt ward. Anything that sounds stupid, fluff-altering, dumb, insulting and stupid is probably true. The guy probably wipes his own butt with pages of old awesome, amazing and respectable fluff.

Yeah, I know.

I'd rather C'tan be stricken from the fluff altogether than be rendered the buttmonkeys of the Necrons.

kenzosan wrote:

ryanstartalker wrote:
Which would count towards personal equipment that is nothing near what other armies call "FNP"...

omg! a space marine doesnt have fnp! an army has something over sm's! omg, rewrite the codex! now

BA can have a full FNP army...
So what GW is teling me, a robot that can rebuild it's self is LESS resilient than a blood-crazed marine?

Well they are nerfing Cover Saves to 5+ (Supposedly) so Maybe FNP will be nerfed down to 5+.

Maybe the Necrons well be getting a hand with the ability to bring it up to a 4+ (Rez Orb).

Hell we are losing our 3+ armor so Maybe Necrons are not as Resilient as SMs and their Inferior Technology.

I know that if they make FNP 5+ the SMs who can do it will seem alot more balanced.
And the necrons who can spend the points to get it to 4+ will then be on par (I Guess, not doing the math).

We will have to wait and see ... i need to see point costs/rules before comparing Armies.

It's not marines.

Comparison done.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm getting to be a cynic in my old age, i guess..

Marines uber alles is getting a bit old.

yes, they aren't marines...
They are robots who, apperently, are meant to be ale to repair themselves very easily.

Made of living metal ...

^
Exactly

they arent marines, they are super advanced living metal, that are weaker then marines >_>

i know its been said, but that seems to be a trend on this page

still, it is a bit stupid.

Odd, I seem to recall Necrons being more endurant than Marines, with bolter-fire in the fluff not actually being able to faze them. As for physical strength, cannot recall if a comparison has been drawn.

Marines are more agile and quicker than Necrons though, and since most Necrons are automatons, Space Marines are also more adaptible.

Void__Dragon wrote:Odd, I seem to recall Necrons being more endurant than Marines, with bolter-fire in the fluff not actually being able to faze them. As for physical strength, cannot recall if a comparison has been drawn.

Marines are more agile and quicker than Necrons though, and since most Necrons are automatons, Space Marines are also more adaptible.

that says nothing for equipment.

a necrons bs should be atleast on par. a necrons toughness, thats debatable given how gw works toughness (crisis suits = sm -_-), but atleast on par. a necrons armour save should be atleast on par with sm.

see what im saying here. an ADVANCED "species" where we cant even explain how the things they make work is weaker (rarely equal) then the apex of human technology.

im not a necron player, i do have a sm ba army, but that doesnt mean i ignore logic. thus the crisis suit comment earlier.

kenzosan wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Odd, I seem to recall Necrons being more endurant than Marines, with bolter-fire in the fluff not actually being able to faze them. As for physical strength, cannot recall if a comparison has been drawn.

Marines are more agile and quicker than Necrons though, and since most Necrons are automatons, Space Marines are also more adaptible.

that says nothing for equipment.

a necrons bs should be atleast on par. a necrons toughness, thats debatable given how gw works toughness (crisis suits = sm -_-), but atleast on par. a necrons armour save should be atleast on par with sm.

see what im saying here. an ADVANCED "species" where we cant even explain how the things they make work is weaker (rarely equal) then the apex of human technology.

im not a necron player, i do have a sm ba army, but that doesnt mean i ignore logic. thus the crisis suit comment earlier.

Oh, sorry, I misinterpreted what you were saying.

Yeah, Necrons are the most advanced race in the galaxy, by far, and Living Metal has consistently been shown to be awesome as hell. Their technology is capable of achieving things the Imperium can only dream of. Although, to be fair to Marines, they also have the geneseed of essential Demigods, although I cannot recall if that actually does anything to make them stronger in of itself.

Void__Dragon wrote:

kenzosan wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Odd, I seem to recall Necrons being more endurant than Marines, with bolter-fire in the fluff not actually being able to faze them. As for physical strength, cannot recall if a comparison has been drawn.

Marines are more agile and quicker than Necrons though, and since most Necrons are automatons, Space Marines are also more adaptible.

that says nothing for equipment.

a necrons bs should be atleast on par. a necrons toughness, thats debatable given how gw works toughness (crisis suits = sm -_-), but atleast on par. a necrons armour save should be atleast on par with sm.

see what im saying here. an ADVANCED "species" where we cant even explain how the things they make work is weaker (rarely equal) then the apex of human technology.

im not a necron player, i do have a sm ba army, but that doesnt mean i ignore logic. thus the crisis suit comment earlier.

Oh, sorry, I misinterpreted what you were saying.

Yeah, Necrons are the most advanced race in the galaxy, by far, and Living Metal has consistently been shown to be awesome as hell. Their technology is capable of achieving things the Imperium can only dream of. Although, to be fair to Marines, they also have the geneseed of essential Demigods, although I cannot recall if that actually does anything to make them stronger in of itself.

i forgot to add. ws and initiative should be better on marines. as you said, marines are agile. that geneseed is why i say bs should be on par. but toughness and armour saves are bull. thats tech through and through (in case of marines and tau, or any other technical army). toughness id argue with, thats why i said its debatable. toughness could include resilience which marines are damn resilient. armour saves are not, they are pure un adulterated tech.

Definitely initiative, yeah. WS, fluffwise, I am not sure where Necron Warriors stand, all I recall is them tearing apart guardsmen with their Flayer-mounted axes, but they could do that by virtue of size and strength alone.

Toughness is physical resilience to injury, I am pretty sure, for the most part. Take for examples Orks. Terrible armour. Great toughness, due to their natural resilience and lack of essential organs.

Although in the case of the Necrons, yeah, their toughness is tech-based, obviously, lol.

Given that Necron tech is supposed to be waaaay in advance of all other races, and the Imperium is supposeded to be a stagnant techbase that was less advanced:

How come:

The imperium has far better pieplates
Marines have a better Inv save generator, and way more of them per group.
Marines can't run away, but higher ld robots (robots for C'tan's sake) can.
Robots can feel pain, but whole other armies can't?
Necrons only have one tank, with short range and slow as tar, but the imperium has fething thousands of variants for every occasion.

etc etc ad nauseam.

If the Necrons have such awesomely badass tech, it would be nice if they got to actually use some to ...you know... be better at killing than others. Otherwise you just have more expensive, more fragile versions of lower tech guns for no benefit.

The fluff tends to have necrons be very very resilient, and well armoured (armour at least as good as any marine...), as well as being good shots. The gauss beams are generally only allowed to strip the paint from a Marine's pauldrons, instead of flaying him to ash, but they generally hit

They are also described as pretty strong, lifting opponents one handed/throwing them around etc...

Well balance plays a part in it. Necrons should not be the bestest evar at everything.

The running away thing is explicitly mentioned to be more akin to knowing when to tactically retreat... Allegedly, in practice it does not really work that way, and phase out makes it seem redundant.

As for Feel No Pain, to be fair... WBB is basically FNP. Having both would be kind of broken.

But yeah, part of it is an outdated codex. I did not play back then, but Necrons were apparently broken when they were introduced, Warriors capable of popping the most heavily armoured vehicles.

IMHO, Necrons SHOULD be the best at everything ever. They should be more broken than 7th edition Daemons of Chaos if they want to fit the power of their fluff. And hence, I think including Necrons was a foolish move on GW's part, putting in a race that have the best tech, can ressurect themselves, have physical GODS in the game, already conquered the Galaxy before, had the power to shut the Warp off from Realspace, etc etc. They should have made them less awesome in their fluff, or they'd become the new Marines, ie pulling craaazy things like "I eat its brain. Now I know stuff."

I didn't say best at everything

That seems to be the Astatres's job :(

Marines know when to tactically retreat also, i'd assume? Cuts very little ice. Especially since the necrons don't die when destroyed and marines are...

I'd rather have FNP. WBB is a clunky rule that is a pain to track, as the 'corpses' tend to mess up movement, and get pushed around by your opponent if he wants to move thru the 'debris', which messes up measuring for WBB.

They were strong when they first came in, but hardly overpowered.

My comments were more in line with the fluff question than the rules one.

Necrons specialize in killing, 24/7, without rest beyond repair time. So how come they are inferior at this to races with vastly cruder tech?

Game balance limitations i can understand, but fluffwise you have to admit they bite at killing anything that wears armour, especially if it is 3+. The fluff has necrons (who are just as tough, strong and good at shooting/cc as marines, if a touch slower in reactions) going down by the score to equal statline or weaker races , who lose only a few doing so, or none, even if unarmoured and armed with improvised weapons.

Scarey Nerd wrote:IMHO, Necrons SHOULD be the best at everything ever. They should be more broken than 7th edition Daemons of Chaos if they want to fit the power of their fluff. And hence, I think including Necrons was a foolish move on GW's part, putting in a race that have the best tech, can ressurect themselves, have physical GODS in the game, already conquered the Galaxy before, had the power to shut the Warp off from Realspace, etc etc. They should have made them less awesome in their fluff, or they'd become the new Marines, ie pulling craaazy things like "I eat its brain. Now I know stuff."

To be fair, the two awakened C'tan are weakened, Nightbringer in particular being pathetic compared to its glory-days. And even then, the C'tan parading around, stutting their godly awesomeness would be idiotic, because as powerful as they are, there DO exist weapons that can seriously harm or even kill them, most prevalent being the Blackstone Fortresses.

What people forget is that there are not many Necrons, compared to Orkz, Tyranids, or even humanity. They have advantages, yes, but so does every other faction. And with 5th edition, the Necrons themselves are explicitly fallible, their sentience degrading with each "death."

We'll Be Back on a 5+ and Gauss nerf? They do realize that Necrons suck at the moment, right?

Sounds like they're basically giving Necrons squad leaders in the same form as Wolf Guard, which I thought they should have done a long time ago. The more I think about it, the more I think it makes sense for Warriors and Flayed ones to have a 4+ save and the extra model count and these 'Sgts' should make them competent in melee, hopefully. If giving them the 'Sgt' and the upgrade for them to repair on a 4+ together makes them cost around the same as a 10-man squad of the current Warriors for the same amount of models, then I'm all for it... Though I know these Sgts will probably cost about 80pts with the rez field and up to 3 power weapon attacks, not to mention being Independent Characters capable of being sniped in melee and giving another killpoint... aka @$$.

WBB looks buffed for the most part since it's rolled per phase and can always be taken, as if there was a res orb. Although expecting FNP and getting a 5+ 'wait till later' save kinda sucks... hard. I'd rather take my save now even though I don't get it for power weapons and not lose in melee than having a 75% chance of losing my entire squad and not taking those saves anyway. Those Necron Guard squad leaders better be faceroll to make up for the incompetence of the Warriors.

C'tan as Elites sound really stupid. It's like they're subservient to the Lords, which makes them seem pretty pathetic and not Gods. I doubt they'll have anything higher than T7 or 4 wounds, even for the Nightbringer.

I have a hunch Warriors are going to blow @$$ and Immortals are going to have the exact stat block as the current Warriors except they can fire on the move, which I always thought Necrons should have Relentless or at least Slow and Purposeful anyway; so to me, this isn't that great. Plus, it's GW being Greed Workshop so Necron players have to replace ALL THEIR TROOP CHOICES FOR NEW MODELS. F*CK YOU, GW!

Nerfing Gauss... really? Gauss was complete garbage as it was, now it's worse? Way to make all the 'advanced' races a complete joke. It's just a Bolter that can sometimes annoy a vehicle, awesome.

Monolith losing its portal ability... well it better be Leman Russ cost, which it wont. That was also the only thing keeping the old codex afloat. The fact that you can pull a squad out of melee and re-roll all your failed WBB. If there isn't anything in the Codex that can replace re-rolling WBB, we might be better off using the old 'dex. I think Necrons are going to have the 'Nid treatments: all personality stripped (what little personality Necrons had left) with a couple power lists and the rest complete @$$. Or they might be like Dark Eldar and be easily counterable with mediocrity spread across the board.

I don't think I'm going to see anything in this Codex that'll make me go, 'OMG, wow!' besides some initial rumors of like: "Storm Troopers get AP3 hellguns!" But they have 18" range and cost 16pts a model, trollololol! TL;DR This codex is probably going to suck.

How does losing the ability to auto wound on a 6, on a s4 weapon, "nerf" said weapon?

There was only ONE creature in the whole of 40k (standard) that it used that ability on that wasnt a Ctan. ONE.

WHy do you think you'll HAVE to buy new models? Theyre still warriors, just CHEAPER (2/3rd the price levels of "cheaper" as well) so wbb against *everything* on a 5+ actually makes them tougher than before, point for point.

Sky is falling doom mongering as usual. Sigh.

I hope those rumors are just that, rumors.

nosferatu1001 wrote:How does losing the ability to auto wound on a 6, on a s4 weapon, "nerf" said weapon?

There was only ONE creature in the whole of 40k (standard) that it used that ability on that wasnt a Ctan. ONE.

WHy do you think you'll HAVE to buy new models? Theyre still warriors, just CHEAPER (2/3rd the price levels of "cheaper" as well) so wbb against *everything* on a 5+ actually makes them tougher than before, point for point.

Sky is falling doom mongering as usual. Sigh.

Wow, you live on these forums.

A nerf is a nerf, no matter how small. And I say we'll have to buy new models because if we want any kind of competent army, we'll have to get them. Just like I don't HAVE to replace my Spinefists with Fleshborers even though there is no possible situation where spinefists would be superior to Fleshborers. Just like you don't HAVE to have nice things in your life to survive, but why would anyone seek out to have nice things anyway?

Actually, they are not tougher unless you think a 4+ save is better than a 3+ save or a 5+ WBB is better than a 4+ WBB. 1/3 point reduction for 2/3 the effectiveness? Wasn't this an old codex?

Fuegan wrote:
Actually, they are not tougher unless you think a 4+ save is better than a 3+ save or a 5+ WBB is better than a 4+ WBB. 1/3 point reduction for 2/3 the effectiveness? Wasn't this an old codex?

We'll be back against everything while being cheaper, meaning you can get more warriors for the same price=tougher.

4+ save = terribad. Count up all the AP4 weapons and then count up all the AP3 weapons and compare. 3+ sv > model count.

Fuegan wrote:4+ save = terribad. Count up all the AP4 weapons and then count up all the AP3 weapons and compare. 3+ sv > model count.

4+ save and what is effectively an invulnerable save against all shooting.

Could get the same with a Lord. Are you even a Necron player? Being within 6" of a Lord with 1 model isn't that difficult. You act like it's the best thing ever to already have a 40pt piece of wargear including is the best thing that could possibly happen. Not that big of a deal. In fact, I'd rather pay 40pts to get that over that @$$ of a 5+ WBB. Old codex > New.

No, what you perceive to the be the new codex is worse, in your opinion.

With 4+ cover being ubiquitous 4+ cover and 5+ wbb > 3+ save. It also means your lords dont just get to babysit any longer...

Also: a nerf is only a nerf if it is a significant change. Dropping the auto wound on 6s helps you against one of the most underused models in the game. A model which you are already more than able to kill at range anyway...

2/3 the cost meaning you can have more models. failin g a save 1/6th less while costing 2/3 less == tougher

Why do you have to buy new troops, I ask again? Dd you read any of the rumours? WARRIORS themselves remain the same. Same gun. So, you can either buy more of them (but dont have to) as you now have more poiints to spend, OR you can buy something else.

Typical sky is falling doom mongering.

Lol, guy is on these forums day and night, it is his sustenance.

I think this codex is going to blow like the Nids, we'll see.

Ive got high hopes, and am going to reserve judgement until i see the codex with my own eyes

Minor confirmation, not about date but about models. I was at throne of skulls, purchased 2 destroyers and one heavy, the vendor went to speak with the gw reps about getting more, he came back and said the gw rep told him not to sell without me knowing there will be new models so he wouldn't disappoint his customer, I told him I want then anyways.

Just confirmation that it is happening, maybe sooner than you think.

Pick up a Necron Warrior model sometime, and look at all of the armor that he's wearing. Yep. None. Maybe armored Necrons would have world beating, Astartes-dominating armor saves, but as it stands, Necrons appear to go into battle with nothing more than their metal skins to protect them. Even a machine needs armor to protect its vital components from damage. As for Necrons being less resilient than Space Marines with Feel No Pain...talk to me when Space Marines start standing back up after getting blown to buggery by Demolishers, Battle Cannons and Maw Cannons. Honestly, I would rather have a 5+ that can't be doubled out/power weaponed than a 4+ FNP.

The sky isn't falling, we're not getting the current Necron Codex with a couple of rule and statistic changes. Even if something is "nerfed," something else will get buffed to compensate. Yes, you'll have to buy new models in order to remain competitive. That's how GW makes money, by getting you to buy more models. That trend isn't unique to the Necron Dex.

This is why all my necrons are sleeping ATM, I got a Battleforce and SURPRISE, new codex rumors. So I'm gonna wait for the codex in order to buy new models....I'll just have to modify my current units.

I just hope the 6th edition rumors are not true :l

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Fuegan wrote:4+ save = terribad. Count up all the AP4 weapons and then count up all the AP3 weapons and compare. 3+ sv > model count.

4+ save and what is effectively an invulnerable save against all shooting.

so an ap 4 wep hits you and you get a 5+ inv save versus before where you got your normal save AND wbb. assault cannons and heavy bolters are now gonna kick ass. sure, youll be tougher against bolter fire, but who relies on bolter fire?

god help the necron in front of the baal predator, just saying.

I am really hoping that the save stays at 3, even though Im pretty sure it wont...

Again we have to wait and see the costs of the Warriors before we can place them.

I dont think we will be 2 bad with the 4+ and the Rez Orb.
Not many others get to make saves even after losing their armor to AP weapons.

As for FNP we have WBB ... same thing maybe WBB is Better.

As for them "Not having armor" they are walking living metal xenos. The living metal is suppose to be VERY tough Armor.

And last but not least our Str 4 Weapons losing The Auto Wound on 6s. As it was pointed out before (To me) there are a whole 3 units with a High enough toughness to need an auto wound, 2 of which are Citans. (Wraith Lord i think was the other).

Tyrs13 wrote:
As for them "Not having armor" they are walking living metal xenos. The living metal is suppose to be VERY tough Armor.

Made of metal isn't the same thing as being armored. Beyond that, Living Metal is represented as being very tough in the game. A 4+ armor save is pretty impressive for an army that essentially goes into battle in its knickers.

Repentia get a 4+ from their everlast undies.

What the hell are they made of? Astral whalebone?


Also the necrons are described as haing armour the equal of any space marine.

How do you armour a robot? Does it shrug into a combat pot and a flak vest?

No, it has armour built onto it's frame.

Try an experiment. Swing a baseball bat at a metal sculpture of a human skeleton, (let's say steel, for lack of Living Metal (which AFAIK isn't explicitly mentioned as being what warriorsar emade of anyway (ships, ctan necrodermis etc yes, but i don't recall seeing it anywhere else).

Then try swinging just as hard at a human wearing a breastplate (read carapace armour).

See which takes damage first. It won't be the solid metal bone (though you could feth up the joints, that would apply even more to the human in the suit).

Orks can achieve a 4+ save by wearing rusty scrap metal. 4+ isn't that great armour.

SkaerKrow wrote:

Tyrs13 wrote:
As for them "Not having armor" they are walking living metal xenos. The living metal is suppose to be VERY tough Armor.

Made of metal isn't the same thing as being armored. Beyond that, Living Metal is represented as being very tough in the game. A 4+ armor save is pretty impressive for an army that essentially goes into battle in its knickers.

a 4+ armour save for an army whose skin is tougher then most armies metal is crap. yea, they fight naked, but so do nids. the difference, nids cant take a hit but cost nothing to field.

they most likely have 4+ saves but why arent they tougher then? advanced living metal kinda entails some form of "i can eat bullets"

At this rate i wouldnt be suprised to see even sisters go down to a 4+ for the sole purpose of making marines the only 3+ army in the game.

I don't mind having Necron saves dropped to 4+ and We'll Be Back to 5+. As of now, whenever I want to do anything to vehicles, they need a 6 to glance. Heck, my entire strategy at the moment is line up entire army, shoot at the closest thing, pray for 6's, then watch as it survives and downs my entire army the following turn. Okay, that sounds bad, and never actually happens, but I rely on 6's a lot. I don't mind the change of saves and wbb only because I've been relying on 6's the entire 5th edition.

On a better note, in my opinion, 6th edition is rumored to switch assault phase and shooting phase around, and that's better for necrons. As of now, and probably in the future, Necrons haven't been too great at assault. Too many times have my warriors been shot at, then assaulted, and then wiped out. With this new setup, we will still have to assault, but now are troops won't be shot at first. Also, with the new 5th phase, which I can't recall the name, I've heard that is when We'll Be Back will be done, so it looks like we'll get to bring back warriors during the end of each players turn. at least, thats how i interpret the rumors...

Those 6's are very nice, or i guess, they arent nice...to the enemy!

Accordign to most of the fluffi have read Necrons aren't actually that hard to put down. it's keepign them down that is the problem.

A standard bolt roudn will quite happily put a necron on the ground without a problem, the problem is thatteh space marines has to put anothe rone in afterwards when the necron gets back up again and fires back.

For that reason i find a 4+ with a 5+ WBB quite suitable.

Ascalam wrote:
Try an experiment. Swing a baseball bat at a metal sculpture of a human skeleton, (let's say steel, for lack of Living Metal (which AFAIK isn't explicitly mentioned as being what warriorsar emade of anyway (ships, ctan necrodermis etc yes, but i don't recall seeing it anywhere else).

Then try swinging just as hard at a human wearing a breastplate (read carapace armour).

See which takes damage first. It won't be the solid metal bone (though you could feth up the joints, that would apply even more to the human in the suit).

And if Necrons were just solid metal skeletons, you may have a point. They aren't. They're machines. Machines have vital components which, if broken, prevent them from functioning. Here's a better experiment. Take a baseball bat to your computer and see how many whacks it takes before your computer stops working. Now, take the same kind of computer, put it in a reinforced metal shell, and have a go at it with said bat. You'll notice that, without armor, machines don't hold up well to being attacked. Oh, except Necrons do, because their living metal forms, without armor, are still capable of shrugging off things like Bolter rounds and Mortar shells. And in the new book, even if you hit them with a shot from a Vindicator, they still have a 33% chance to stand right back up as if nothing happened. Not to mention that, thanks to Coverhammer 40k, even if you aren't getting your 4+ Armor Save against an Assault Cannon, there's a good chance that you're still getting a 4+ Cover Save. Sorry guys, I'm not seeing any justification here for the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I have to agree with SkaerKrow, 4+ save is a nerf in one sense because everyone knows there are a ton of AP4 weapons out there, but at the same time with 4+ cover saves everywhere its not that big of a deal.

Plus we were pretty good at taking shooting hits before, I dont really remember loosing to many of those fights, it was the assault phase that we were getting wrecked. The 4+ save makes us worse, however 5+ wbb always will be nice as well as 1/3 less per troop choice. Its much easier loosing a 120 point unit to sweeping advance (especially if there is no phase out) than loosing a 160 point unit.

Actually now that I think about it, the real boon to necron warriors is that if phase out is retracted they can actually be used, instead of just sucking wind and every necron player praying they stay in reserve until late as possible.

SkaerKrow wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
Try an experiment. Swing a baseball bat at a metal sculpture of a human skeleton, (let's say steel, for lack of Living Metal (which AFAIK isn't explicitly mentioned as being what warriorsar emade of anyway (ships, ctan necrodermis etc yes, but i don't recall seeing it anywhere else).

Then try swinging just as hard at a human wearing a breastplate (read carapace armour).

See which takes damage first. It won't be the solid metal bone (though you could feth up the joints, that would apply even more to the human in the suit).

And if Necrons were just solid metal skeletons, you may have a point. They aren't. They're machines. Machines have vital components which, if broken, prevent them from functioning. Here's a better experiment. Take a baseball bat to your computer and see how many whacks it takes before your computer stops working. Now, take the same kind of computer, put it in a reinforced metal shell, and have a go at it with said bat. You'll notice that, without armor, machines don't hold up well to being attacked. Oh, except Necrons do, because their living metal forms, without armor, are still capable of shrugging off things like Bolter rounds and Mortar shells. And in the new book, even if you hit them with a shot from a Vindicator, they still have a 33% chance to stand right back up as if nothing happened. Not to mention that, thanks to Coverhammer 40k, even if you aren't getting your 4+ Armor Save against an Assault Cannon, there's a good chance that you're still getting a 4+ Cover Save. Sorry guys, I'm not seeing any justification here for the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Necrons have all those vital components in an armoured and reinforced shell. They aren'tmade of civilian grade light plastic, with exposed, non-hardened circuitboards that are loosely attached to a case that wasn't designed to take violence. Take the bat to a military computer terminal (i've done this in a demo for the things). It doesn't even dent. Same as Necrons. They are machines made out of armour-grade metal, with all the vital stuff inside that armour.

All the really important stuff is inside the ribcage (armoured as hell) and skull (probably also quite well armoured). The rest is solid metal bones with actuators at the joints that are armoured as hades too.


If they do drop the save to a 4+ i'll not consider it the end of the world. I will consider it a bit more of the marines favouritism that is already so thick it's choking the game.

i have to wonder where everyone seems to be getting the idea that Sweeping Advance will cancel out the supposed new 'can always take WBB rolls'. Have any of you thought (maybe with the new end phase) that "always" might literally mean ALWAYS? As in, "Ha! I just wiped half your squad and sweeping advanced you!" rollrollrollrollroll "Nope, they all get back up." "Uh, okay, but that other unit's been taken down to Phase Out level" rollrollrollroll "Nope, sorry, enough of them got back up."

Because sweeping advance immediately removes all models from the swept unit from play without allowing any save, ect. what-so-ever to be made.

Anvildude wrote:i have to wonder where everyone seems to be getting the idea that Sweeping Advance will cancel out the supposed new 'can always take WBB rolls'. Have any of you thought (maybe with the new end phase) that "always" might literally mean ALWAYS? As in, "Ha! I just wiped half your squad and sweeping advanced you!" rollrollrollrollroll "Nope, they all get back up." "Uh, okay, but that other unit's been taken down to Phase Out level" rollrollrollroll "Nope, sorry, enough of them got back up."

Because there was mention of some rule that states you can always take your WBB even if there's no other model of the same type within 6" or whatever it is. The thing is...why would WBB negate Sweeping Advance? The alive guys would still get sweeping advanced and the dead guys are..well, dead for all intents and purposes. And since SA removes UNITS and not models, those down models are removed with their units.

I doubt it will change in the new edition either. A non SM army immune to SA? Heresy.

yakface wrote:
3) We'll be Back is no longer called that and it is NOT Feel No Pain. Basically it is a 5+ bonus save similar to Feel No Pain, but doesn't get cancelled out by double strength, AP1/2, etc. In addition, this save is made at the END of the phase after morale tests are taken. If the unit is wiped out or is falling back at the end of the phase, then the save cannot be used. So as an opponent, if you manage to wipe the unit out or make them fall back, then you prevent any Necrons from getting back up...unless the unit has something called the 'ever-living' rule, in which case it gets to attempt this save even if the unit is wiped out.

Derp.

Herp.

Ascalam wrote:

SkaerKrow wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
Try an experiment. Swing a baseball bat at a metal sculpture of a human skeleton, (let's say steel, for lack of Living Metal (which AFAIK isn't explicitly mentioned as being what warriorsar emade of anyway (ships, ctan necrodermis etc yes, but i don't recall seeing it anywhere else).

Then try swinging just as hard at a human wearing a breastplate (read carapace armour).

See which takes damage first. It won't be the solid metal bone (though you could feth up the joints, that would apply even more to the human in the suit).

And if Necrons were just solid metal skeletons, you may have a point. They aren't. They're machines. Machines have vital components which, if broken, prevent them from functioning. Here's a better experiment. Take a baseball bat to your computer and see how many whacks it takes before your computer stops working. Now, take the same kind of computer, put it in a reinforced metal shell, and have a go at it with said bat. You'll notice that, without armor, machines don't hold up well to being attacked. Oh, except Necrons do, because their living metal forms, without armor, are still capable of shrugging off things like Bolter rounds and Mortar shells. And in the new book, even if you hit them with a shot from a Vindicator, they still have a 33% chance to stand right back up as if nothing happened. Not to mention that, thanks to Coverhammer 40k, even if you aren't getting your 4+ Armor Save against an Assault Cannon, there's a good chance that you're still getting a 4+ Cover Save. Sorry guys, I'm not seeing any justification here for the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Necrons have all those vital components in an armoured and reinforced shell. They aren'tmade of civilian grade light plastic, with exposed, non-hardened circuitboards that are loosely attached to a case that wasn't designed to take violence. Take the bat to a military computer terminal (i've done this in a demo for the things). It doesn't even dent. Same as Necrons. They are machines made out of armour-grade metal, with all the vital stuff inside that armour.

All the really important stuff is inside the ribcage (armoured as hell) and skull (probably also quite well armoured). The rest is solid metal bones with actuators at the joints that are armoured as hades too.


If they do drop the save to a 4+ i'll not consider it the end of the world. I will consider it a bit more of the marines favouritism that is already so thick it's choking the game.

I'm sorry, but your both wrong. Before I start, I want to assure everyone that I'm a PC user and hate Apple.

One day, at my job as an after-school counselor, I happened upon two children playing with their Ipod Touches. And by playing, I meant throwing them against the ground, laughing, and picking them up to be thrown again. I walked over to the children and told them to stop. I gave them the speech about how they are delicate and will break, and how they would cry. The children, being ever so smart, said I didn't know anything, and continued to throw the Ipods at the ground. They told me that the Ipods wouldn't break unless they threw it against some cement on the blacktop, but then tried to assure me that these Ipods were immune to dried dirt and grass.
Minutes went by, maybe two or three, and the children were ever so happy with their resilient toys, when they came up with a better idea, throwing them against the metal jungle-gym! The first child wound up, and hucked the thing as fast as he could, watching his Ipod Touch crumble into pieces. The child began to cry, and I got to clean up the mess with the following "I told you so". The second child, however was smart and decided after watching their friend lose an Ipod that throwing theirs against METAL was a bad idea.
After I finished writing a report on what had happened, I got to witness the other child still throwing their Ipod Touch at the ground, as before. This time, however, it broke. The child ran over to me, who witnessed the entire thing, and blamed another child for smashing it. Alas, I saw what had happened, game the same "I told you so" to the second child, cleaned up the mess, and went on to deal with my easy job.
I'm not trying to say that the Necrons are Ipods, but I'm saying that they are resilient, but will break. They can break easily against the mightiest of opponents, or can fall by the constant stress from a non-threatening foe. Don't compare them to something like a home computer or a metal figure, just realize they aren't Space Marines and will be treated as such.

Wow another armor with a large amount of skimmers, way to be origanal Gw, and necron bikes? Some of this stuff...Gah go ahead and make another Over powered army, we all want it. Just slowed truly slowed

maybe all xenos is gonna end up copies of one another just with different special rules. just like marines are. o.O

In the end the game will be called: SPACE MARINES 40K

So.... people were mad that necrons don't have dedicated transports, skimmers, are too expensive points wise, and not competitive
Now... people are mad that necrons will have dedicated transports, skimmers, are cheaper points wise, and will become competitive.

Head asplode.

The few "nerfs" they are getting seem like they are really just balancing out the buffs they are getting. I get that people don't like the "space marines or bust" attitude gw has, but if necrons will actually have a strong overall codex with plenty of customizable options, is the weaker armor save really worth all the hate? I'm actually excited to hear that I don't have to choose between only 2 builds anymore. I can actually bring necrons to a big GT or Ard Boyz tournament again without being laughed at.

Im pissed because at this rate,the last codex to get updated will be uber-death star, 30 Inch movment vehicles with 14 all around and not open topped, 3+ Avg. Save, and mega special rules.

Unless they change the fluff, Necrons aren't made of Living Metal - the book Nightbringer makes a point that the ships etc are made of a different material than the troops (no mater what DoW says!).
As for smashing up a Necron, I think of them being built more like Black Boxes from aircraft but obviously with some weak points for joints etc; have you ever seen them testing those things? By dropping tons of piston strength on them or setting them on fire?

6th Edition is meant to be lowering FNP to 5+, so 5+ WBB for Necrons would be reasonable.

Also, when comparing the IoM to Necrons, you have to remember that a lot of their advanced technology was "stolen" from the dreams of the Void Dragon prior to the Great Crusade and mixed with the technology from the Dark Age of Technology so there is every justification for the IoM having super fancy tech.

I'm just hoping that my Necrons will be able to bring pain to IG and DE in a way that my Marines can only dream of without having to tailor my list (which I wont do!).

im excited for new codex, and have no problem with 4+ save if units are cheaper or 5+ WBB if FNP is 5+, also, i already use a res orb so that will help with WBB as well

Grim.Badger wrote:Unless they change the fluff, Necrons aren't made of Living Metal - the book Nightbringer makes a point that the ships etc are made of a different material than the troops (no mater what DoW says!).
As for smashing up a Necron, I think of them being built more like Black Boxes from aircraft but obviously with some weak points for joints etc; have you ever seen them testing those things? By dropping tons of piston strength on them or setting them on fire?

6th Edition is meant to be lowering FNP to 5+, so 5+ WBB for Necrons would be reasonable.

Also, when comparing the IoM to Necrons, you have to remember that a lot of their advanced technology was "stolen" from the dreams of the Void Dragon prior to the Great Crusade and mixed with the technology from the Dark Age of Technology so there is every justification for the IoM having super fancy tech.

I'm just hoping that my Necrons will be able to bring pain to IG and DE in a way that my Marines can only dream of without having to tailor my list (which I wont do!).

I'm fairly sure that Fall of Damnos made mention of the necrons being made of the same material as the monoliths.

I don't mind any part of the codex, exept the skimmers. Give them a Rhino equivalent and I would think sweet, but skimmers? Why would they have the urge to move that fast( Last part was comic relief)

Kevin949 wrote:

Grim.Badger wrote:Unless they change the fluff, Necrons aren't made of Living Metal - the book Nightbringer makes a point that the ships etc are made of a different material than the troops (no mater what DoW says!).
As for smashing up a Necron, I think of them being built more like Black Boxes from aircraft but obviously with some weak points for joints etc; have you ever seen them testing those things? By dropping tons of piston strength on them or setting them on fire?

6th Edition is meant to be lowering FNP to 5+, so 5+ WBB for Necrons would be reasonable.

Also, when comparing the IoM to Necrons, you have to remember that a lot of their advanced technology was "stolen" from the dreams of the Void Dragon prior to the Great Crusade and mixed with the technology from the Dark Age of Technology so there is every justification for the IoM having super fancy tech.

I'm just hoping that my Necrons will be able to bring pain to IG and DE in a way that my Marines can only dream of without having to tailor my list (which I wont do!).

I'm fairly sure that Fall of Damnos made mention of the necrons being made of the same material as the monoliths.

FOD also had warriors being made out of a stripped Chimera hull.

That said FOD has some downright dubious fluff in places, that makes Necrons more of a joke than a terrifying threat.

I enjoyed the book, but there were a few places where you have to stop, reread the section, and ask what the hades they had in mind..

Agreed, good book but i'm hoping that not ALL of it is accurate for the new codex,.

TheWildHost wrote:I don't mind any part of the codex, exept the skimmers. Give them a Rhino equivalent and I would think sweet, but skimmers? Why would they have the urge to move that fast( Last part was comic relief)

The need to catch fleeing Eldar

Ascalam wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Grim.Badger wrote:Unless they change the fluff, Necrons aren't made of Living Metal - the book Nightbringer makes a point that the ships etc are made of a different material than the troops (no mater what DoW says!).
As for smashing up a Necron, I think of them being built more like Black Boxes from aircraft but obviously with some weak points for joints etc; have you ever seen them testing those things? By dropping tons of piston strength on them or setting them on fire?

6th Edition is meant to be lowering FNP to 5+, so 5+ WBB for Necrons would be reasonable.

Also, when comparing the IoM to Necrons, you have to remember that a lot of their advanced technology was "stolen" from the dreams of the Void Dragon prior to the Great Crusade and mixed with the technology from the Dark Age of Technology so there is every justification for the IoM having super fancy tech.

I'm just hoping that my Necrons will be able to bring pain to IG and DE in a way that my Marines can only dream of without having to tailor my list (which I wont do!).

I'm fairly sure that Fall of Damnos made mention of the necrons being made of the same material as the monoliths.

FOD also had warriors being made out of a stripped Chimera hull.

That said FOD has some downright dubious fluff in places, that makes Necrons more of a joke than a terrifying threat.

I enjoyed the book, but there were a few places where you have to stop, reread the section, and ask what the hades they had in mind..

Mainly I pointed that out for the reason of...don't listen to fluff in regards to the game. Period.

"But the C'tan had another boon to grant their subjects. They offered the Necrontyr a path to immortality and stability their race had always craved. Their cursed flesh would be replaced with Living Metal in imitation of their gods."

- Necron codex, "The Fall of the Necrontyr," page 25.

Necrons are made of Living Metal, end of story, no debate.

That said, I am not really bothered that much by the 4+ save.

I suppose 4+ armour ain't that bad, but we need WBB to either stay at 4+ or move to a 3+
If WBB changes to 5+ think of what would happen to phylactery, dead or changed...

Anpu-adom wrote: I mean, Necrons have been waiting YEARS for a codex...'

Yep, and we're gonna be waiting a few more

4+ armour sounds fine to me. They're T4, right? So very tough, with decent armour but their main strength is standing back up after you put 'em down. Plus, since they aren't so much MEQs anymore, the points cost can go down, so they can be fielded in hordes like in the fluff.

Isn't one of the rumors that you can 'build' new Warriors from wrecked vehicles?

Anvildude wrote:Isn't one of the rumors that you can 'build' new Warriors from wrecked vehicles?

Surely you are trolling. I've never heard that as a rumor, but it is an interesting idea.

I don't troll. I actually honestly heard that as a bona-fide rumour. From a friend. Who heard it from a friend. That is, the 'social' kind of rumor, not the 'official' kind of rumour.

And yes, it is an interesting idea. Sort of like the Parasite of Mortrex, but with Vehicles.

It sort of like what was mentioned eirlier from fall of damos
Necrons made from chimeras!

Anvildude wrote:I don't troll. I actually honestly heard that as a bona-fide rumour. From a friend. Who heard it from a friend. That is, the 'social' kind of rumor, not the 'official' kind of rumour.

And yes, it is an interesting idea. Sort of like the Parasite of Mortrex, but with Vehicles.

I could understand why Guass would be nerfed if that was the case. I don't know how others play their armies, but I tend to glance the ever living poop out of vehicles, usually resulting in its destruction after two 5 man destroyer squads fire at it, or three 10 man warrior squads, if my friends let me play without phase out. If the destroyed vehicle resulted in more troops, then Necrons would be a big threat to armies that rely heavily on vehicles. When my Ork-playing friend rushes up his trukk, and I destroy it, a squad of warriors would appear, and start shooting. It would cause strategy problems since squads would appear almost out of nowhere. Of course, thats how I look at it.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:It sort of like what was mentioned eirlier from fall of damos
Necrons made from chimeras!

Yes, as do I. And it presents some pretty cool conversion potential.

The maneger for my GW says that the update is for sure

The GW rep for my local store (accidentally?) mentioned October as the date for the new release, when asked what to do about needing to keep Necron Warriors on the wall.

Hmm well October conflicts with Ogres but at this point it is sort of a crap shot

FalkorsRaiders wrote:I could understand why Guass would be nerfed if that was the case. I don't know how others play their armies, but I tend to glance the ever living poop out of vehicles, usually resulting in its destruction after two 5 man destroyer squads fire at it, or three 10 man warrior squads, if my friends let me play without phase out. If the destroyed vehicle resulted in more troops, then Necrons would be a big threat to armies that rely heavily on vehicles. When my Ork-playing friend rushes up his trukk, and I destroy it, a squad of warriors would appear, and start shooting. It would cause strategy problems since squads would appear almost out of nowhere. Of course, thats how I look at it.

I lol'd. I remember one time I was playing my cousin's IG and I used my 3 10-man squads of Warriors to immobilize his Chimeras and he was like, "That Gauss is broken, dude," and I was like, 'I no, lol I have best army!' and next turn he disembarked his veterans and shot all his plasma guns at me and I phased out. Then I was like, 'Wow, you lucky. Next turn I was gonna destroy all your Chimeras!' then he was like, "Yeah, then you would have been able to fire at my veterans the turn after that and killed them." It was a close match.

Fuegan wrote:

FalkorsRaiders wrote:I could understand why Guass would be nerfed if that was the case. I don't know how others play their armies, but I tend to glance the ever living poop out of vehicles, usually resulting in its destruction after two 5 man destroyer squads fire at it, or three 10 man warrior squads, if my friends let me play without phase out. If the destroyed vehicle resulted in more troops, then Necrons would be a big threat to armies that rely heavily on vehicles. When my Ork-playing friend rushes up his trukk, and I destroy it, a squad of warriors would appear, and start shooting. It would cause strategy problems since squads would appear almost out of nowhere. Of course, thats how I look at it.

I lol'd. I remember one time I was playing my cousin's IG and I used my 3 10-man squads of Warriors to immobilize his Chimeras and he was like, "That Gauss is broken, dude," and I was like, 'I no, lol I have best army!' and next turn he disembarked his veterans and shot all his plasma guns at me and I phased out. Then I was like, 'Wow, you lucky. Next turn I was gonna destroy all your Chimeras!' then he was like, "Yeah, then you would have been able to fire at my veterans the turn after that and killed them." It was a close match.

I played my friend once with Necrons, he ran IG, and it was close. On the 1st turn I shot up all his tanks and destroyed all their weapons. He spent the rest of the game ramming the tanks into my warriors, which I teleported away using the monoliths. He won the game, however, since he contested all my points with the tanks, while he controlled 1 point. I lost all luck after 1st turn, and spent the rest of the game missing all shots while he took out my Necrons with his basic guardsmen.

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:The GW rep for my local store (accidentally?) mentioned October as the date for the new release, when asked what to do about needing to keep Necron Warriors on the wall.

The person at my store told me GW is keeping new releases secret until 1 week before it comes out, so not even he knows when its coming.

Nova nick wrote:

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:The GW rep for my local store (accidentally?) mentioned October as the date for the new release, when asked what to do about needing to keep Necron Warriors on the wall.

The person at my store told me GW is keeping new releases secret until 1 week before it comes out, so not even he knows when its coming.

I meant the person at GW's ordering HQ place who does the orders for my local non-GW gaming store that carries GW stuff. Sales rep or something similar.

Nova nick wrote:

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:The GW rep for my local store (accidentally?) mentioned October as the date for the new release, when asked what to do about needing to keep Necron Warriors on the wall.

The person at my store told me GW is keeping new releases secret until 1 week before it comes out, so not even he knows when its coming.

Plus, really they only "just" announced that they're doing that so plenty of information has leaked out. There is just no way, currently, of knowing what is false and what is embellished information. (Notice I left out "true")

phase out being gone it dumb its in the fluff and should stay once everything is necron typed. the C'tan killed each other so unless the reamining 4 got excluding the imprisioned one got beat down by their own thats a dumb turn of events for star gods to get beat up by their own machines. if anything they should be in a weakened state from being woken up early so they can only manifest outside their tomb world in a diminished fashion balancing the fluffy and army changes IF you source is accurate. i like the cheaper weaker horde approach with the WBB change i hope that is the case in the new dex. in melee though necrons arent that weak usualy if they shoot whatever attacks them they tend to beat whatever assaulted them

Where to start....

Phase out is in the fluff. The fluff however is in for a vigorous colonic retconning . Just because something is in the fluff doesn't neccesarily mean it should be on the game table as a crippling rule. It could be reworked unit by unit and still be fluffy, possibly even fluffier. Fluff supports units phasing out when beaten, while the battle continues, or even individual models phasing out mid fight from a unit that keeps fighting.

The Ctan are shown to be in a weakened state, fluff and in game. At full strength even Apocalypse would be too small a sandbox. My guess (and other posters) is that the Necrons found some tattered remnants left over from when the Ctan ate each other (the crumbs that fall off the table while you're eating, as an analogy) and weaponized them. We'll just have to see which way Ward wants to take it (and we've had enough already about the hack, so let's leave it there before we get another million ward hate posts).

As to Necrons being good in melee. Have you ever fought them played by someone who is actually playing by the rules?

Their weapons are Rapid Fire. They can shoot you or assault you. Generally they will shoot you, as it gives them more chance of hurting you. The only time a fusilade from a warrior unit will make a dent against an attacking unit is when that unit has 5+ or worse armour and the necrons are within 12''. Most other times you might down 2-3 members of the unit if you get lucky. You can't assault after firing because the flayers are rapid fire.

Still with me?

This assumes that the unit you're firing at is coming at you in the open, that it's your turn when they get into range to shoot and that they didn't roll up in a transport/teleport/drop-pod in, and that they're line troopers like the warriors are.

They then charge you on their turn. Necron warriors have 1 attack, and will not be getting any extra as they aren't charging, have no extra close combat weapons etc.

Lets assume for the sake of argument that they are being charged by marines, as everyone and his dog runs marines, and to give them a chance we'll make them a boring old Tac squad. To give them an even bigger slice of hope we'll assume that the person buying the tac squad was being really really dumb and gave them no special weapons, and didn't upgrade the sarge. To bend it even fething further around the event horizon of probability we'll also assume he footslogged them in, losing 2 marines to gauss fire (seems to math out at about 2-3 average).

The marines have I 4, so they swing first, driving 16+ attacks home (assuming that tacs have no pistols and are using rifle butts (don't have the marine codex to hand). Of these 8 hit, and 4 wound. we'll assume that 1 necron falls down, because of the guardian angel watching the necron player.

Then necrons swing back 9, hit with 5 and wound with 3. Odds are they will drop one marine. Combat will be tied.

Now add on the transport (which keeps the tac squad at 10 models), the powerfist, the special weapons used right before the brawl begins...

And this is assuming that the necrons get a chance to fire at the incoming, and the dice gods are smiling (i've tilted the results in the necron's favour a little on the calculation).

This was against tac marines. Now try it against assault marines or ork boyz, let alone decent assault troops like bloodletters...

Necrons are not good at assault. They can win it, but only if the dice gods are smiling or they massively outnumber the assaulting models to make up the disparity in number of attacks.

The armour can shrug attacks fairly decently until someone brings a fist or PW, but enough attacks will down them, just like marines. You only need to beat them in combat by 2 or 3 to have them break, roll against sweeping on I 2 and be swept out of existence with no WBB.

Warriors are in essence Tac Marines run bare, with slightly fancier bolters and the possibility to get back up on a 4+ next round if there are any necrons still standing nearby. They lack ATSKNF, transports,sergeants and special weapons in the squad.

I'm guessing from the tone of the post that you've not fought Necrons much, and are only seeing the 'OMG that's broken, cos my army doesn't have it' elements?

So, the necron army is going more mechanized apparently

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/07/40k-rumors-necron-flyer-goodness.html

Ok, so to translate (and feel free to correct me, as his writing style causes brain melt)

We get an AV 11 all round fast skimmer that has Living Metal and can fire while zoooming like the razorwing.

Main gun 12' range ap 2 S 10

Secondary gun 24'' S 7 Heavy 6 Ap -, hits several units.

I'm guessing about the same size as the Razorwing, but with no proof.

It looks like it will get shot down all too easily, out of fear of it's close range mojo, but that means heavy fire focussed on it will be leaving other stuff alone.

Cautiously optimistic, but then i liked the fliers from Stargate too..

Sounds like a unit that will be either really cheap or have access to equipment that will make it more survivable. Like those shield we heard about before, so that it will be Armor 13 all around until it suffers a hit.

I like it! Always wanted flyers but I resisted buying Dark Eldar uptill now. MUST resist...... and buy necron flyers

I've been trying hard to resist buying Dark Eldar.

As i wanted a Heamy army, and the options suck (finecast or one monopose model) i've managed it, but the razorwing is damnedly sexy.

Sounds like Necrons are going to come out with a bang.

Lord I hope so. We've been ignored long enough.

Now we just have to hope that our few good options don't get pulverised by the Nerf Bat to force us to buy the new shinies..

shouldnt this be in the rumor section?

anyway it sounds awesome! Its great to see the necrons having a place in the new armies, and also having a stronger feel for themselves. I always felt they were kinda just around, not really too interesting, and just there without much personal flavor. i think with these new changes they will def be an interesting army to play against and field.

Look at the last few pages, that should answer your first question...

Ascalam wrote:Ok, so to translate (and feel free to correct me, as his writing style causes brain melt)

We get an AV 11 all round fast skimmer that has Living Metal and can fire while zoooming like the razorwing.

Main gun 12' range ap 2 S 10

Secondary gun 24'' S 7 Heavy 6 Ap -, hits several units.

I'm guessing about the same size as the Razorwing, but with no proof.

It looks like it will get shot down all too easily, out of fear of it's close range mojo, but that means heavy fire focussed on it will be leaving other stuff alone.

Cautiously optimistic, but then i liked the fliers from Stargate too..

This + Veil of Darkness = Sooooo much fun. Can barely wait for the Codex release, good thing I got a CSM army to build to keep me busy.

Assuming you can VOD vehicles around that would indeed be awesome

Even if you can't it's still new shinies, and if they can manage a sculpt that is as good as the DE vehicles....

*salivates*

one can hope lol

I was refering more to VOD a tough force behind enemy lines so they turn their attention there and then slam then in the front with these babies.

Does anyone know the release date?

DevastationDavo wrote:Does anyone know the release date?

GW is keeping their cards very close to their chest these days. They have leaked a variety of things that make people believe that 'soon' is before the end of the year. If you are like me, that means that you have some time to save up some money.

Beyond that, GW releases product on the first weekend of the month. Pre-order and public announcement happens a week before. WD last page is a month before that (though, it may disappear completely... we'll find out in about a week.)

Anpu-adom wrote:WD last page is a month before that (though, it may disappear completely... we'll find out in about a week.)

Wait, what? WD is going?

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:WD last page is a month before that (though, it may disappear completely... we'll find out in about a week.)

Wait, what? WD is going?

Whoa! Not trying to start a rumor that WD is disappearing, just that the last page might. With GW's "No More Rumors", and other changes to how their products are advertised recently suggest to me that the last page may be going away as well. To clarify, I have no inside information on this.

Yep, I always saw how the Tomb Kings, and Necrons are related. I mean, Necrons come out of Tombs older than many things, and "Tomb Kings"? Ya, #1 is right.

Anpu-adom wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:WD last page is a month before that (though, it may disappear completely... we'll find out in about a week.)

Wait, what? WD is going?

Whoa! Not trying to start a rumor that WD is disappearing, just that the last page might. With GW's "No More Rumors", and other changes to how their products are advertised recently suggest to me that the last page may be going away as well. To clarify, I have no inside information on this.

Thank the all-powerful Atheismo for that. In any case, wouldn't they keep the last page as their only method of communication with us?

I don't want to read through all 69 pages and pardon slight off-topic but am I the only one who noticed that decreasing price by 1/3 results in half not one third more units?

I have a friend who plays Necrons. I thoroughly enjoy murdering him. Thus, I don't like this codex :(

TydVirTaal wrote:I have a friend who plays Necrons. I thoroughly enjoy murdering him. Thus, I don't like this codex :(

He must not be playing right if you murder him. Even on a bad day for me it's still usually a very close game with my opponents.

Kevin949 wrote:

TydVirTaal wrote:I have a friend who plays Necrons. I thoroughly enjoy murdering him. Thus, I don't like this codex :(

He must not be playing right if you murder him. Even on a bad day for me it's still usually a very close game with my opponents.

Then you obviously haven't played against Necrons recently. I've played a cobbled together Space Marine army made on the fly with mostly tactical squads and wiped a standard Necron army with little to no trouble. An army full of slow Marines with no transports and just bolters doesn't do terribly well. Destroyers mitigate this, but they're hard to hide and everyone will just kill the Warriors to force a phase out. I've played a lot of Necron players, and I really hope there is a new codex for them soon because I get really bored stomping Necrons into the dirt. I'm not even a terribly competitive player, it's just no fun having a one sided battle.

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

TydVirTaal wrote:I have a friend who plays Necrons. I thoroughly enjoy murdering him. Thus, I don't like this codex :(

He must not be playing right if you murder him. Even on a bad day for me it's still usually a very close game with my opponents.

Then you obviously haven't played against Necrons recently. I've played a cobbled together Space Marine army made on the fly with mostly tactical squads and wiped a standard Necron army with little to no trouble. An army full of slow Marines with no transports and just bolters doesn't do terribly well. Destroyers mitigate this, but they're hard to hide and everyone will just kill the Warriors to force a phase out. I've played a lot of Necron players, and I really hope there is a new codex for them soon because I get really bored stomping Necrons into the dirt. I'm not even a terribly competitive player, it's just no fun having a one sided battle.

Dude, I PLAY necrons and I regularly beat my opponents which are comprised of marines of varied flavors, tau and nids that know what they're playing against so they can tailor their list against me and they still lose. Obviously I lose too (like just this past weekend, lost to my friends 4th edition nids) but I never get "murdered" and I have never phased out (one time when I first started playing and it was a 500 point game).

I stand by my previous comment of his opponent not knowing how to play necrons or not having enough of the right models. Also, I stand by my belief that the player (with appropriate tools at his disposal) has more to do with winning than the army they're playing as. Obviously there are some caveats to this, I.E. someone with only warriors and a lord is going to lose, proper tools would include access to at least 1 squad of every type in the codex (even if proxying).

Kevin949 wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

TydVirTaal wrote:I have a friend who plays Necrons. I thoroughly enjoy murdering him. Thus, I don't like this codex :(

He must not be playing right if you murder him. Even on a bad day for me it's still usually a very close game with my opponents.

Then you obviously haven't played against Necrons recently. I've played a cobbled together Space Marine army made on the fly with mostly tactical squads and wiped a standard Necron army with little to no trouble. An army full of slow Marines with no transports and just bolters doesn't do terribly well. Destroyers mitigate this, but they're hard to hide and everyone will just kill the Warriors to force a phase out. I've played a lot of Necron players, and I really hope there is a new codex for them soon because I get really bored stomping Necrons into the dirt. I'm not even a terribly competitive player, it's just no fun having a one sided battle.

Dude, I PLAY necrons and I regularly beat my opponents which are comprised of marines of varied flavors, tau and nids that know what they're playing against so they can tailor their list against me and they still lose. Obviously I lose too (like just this past weekend, lost to my friends 4th edition nids) but I never get "murdered" and I have never phased out (one time when I first started playing and it was a 500 point game).

I stand by my previous comment of his opponent not knowing how to play necrons or not having enough of the right models. Also, I stand by my belief that the player (with appropriate tools at his disposal) has more to do with winning than the army they're playing as. Obviously there are some caveats to this, I.E. someone with only warriors and a lord is going to lose, proper tools would include access to at least 1 squad of every type in the codex (even if proxying).

I agree with Kevin 949, I also play Necrons and after a rough start with them, I've never been murdered since and I've gone up against Nids, Tau, IG, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, other Necrons, and Chaos Daemons (okay, so nids took a while to be able to figure out how to fight against but I eventually got to the point where I don't get murdered but I still haven't won a single battle against them).

I very rarely get murdered playing Necrons. Only by Dark Eldar, generally by 1 particular player. If i've ever lost any other game its by narrow margins (and I have lost games). He has pretty much tailored his list for me, but it's still a decent list. Just excels against me. I've beaten him 1, when he was testing out webway portals for the first time. And only because he kept failing reserve rolls.

Has there been any other update necron info recently?

mondo80 wrote:Has there been any other update necron info recently?

Nope... the Codex has disappeared from the GW webstore. Tomb Spyders, Flayed Ones, and Pariahs are no longer available for order.
The rest of the range have varying dates of availability.
A few weeks ago, there was a report of a Tomb Spyder re-sculpt that is significantly larger (almost Soul Grinder size).
Seems that the August WD doesn't have Necrons on the backpage (people are saying that its Ogre Kingdoms).

Which puts Necrons October/November... maybe.

Well with Ogre kingdoms being next I guess that frees up October.

from what I've heard, 'crons will be coming out in november.

The secret that nobody wants you to know: The reason Necron stuff's dissapearing from stores and shelves is that they're cutting the Necrons. Space zombie robots are going the way of the Space Dwarves.

I guess i'd just feild mine as Silver skulls, post diet plan, if that happened

They wouldn't delete the 'crons they are in the background of loads of codexs (Marines, Tau (I think...) and more...)

Without the Necrons the IOM are boned

One of the Necron gods (The Dragon) IS their Machine-God after all, though some will likely disagree, as Big E was named the Omnissiah bu the Ad Mech when he 'allied' with them by duress..

Given the grief people STILL give them over axing thr Sqats i doubt they'd do it again. It's easier to leave armies they don't like un-updated for decades instead

Anvildude wrote:The secret that nobody wants you to know: The reason Necron stuff's dissapearing from stores and shelves is that they're cutting the Necrons. Space zombie robots are going the way of the Space Dwarves.

If this is true (couldn't possibly be), then I will be the most saddest panda to ever surface in this world. The tears that I will shed will have the power to cure orphans of disease and transfer them to a big stormcloud that will unleash its torrents of sorrow all over England.

You guys know I'm actually not a legitimate source of rumours, right?

It's fascinating to see the reactions to even unconfirmed rumors, though. Forgive me for a little social tweaking.

These rumors are great! Can't wait to see them come out

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/08/40k-rumors-necron-special-rules.html

I'm going to sigh now...

Kilink wrote:http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/08/40k-rumors-necron-special-rules.html

I'm going to sigh now...

...sigh...

Kilink wrote:http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/08/40k-rumors-necron-special-rules.html

I'm going to sigh now...

I dunno. The rumors are probably completely off base and should be taken with a grain of salt. The codex is going to come out and everyone is going to go "wat?"

Not happy if they're true...

As usual, lots of awesome stuff in this codex.

Assume the usual:

If it's expensive and was good in the last codex it will get a heavy nerf and a price up.

If it was something that cost you a fortune to assemble, like wraiths, immortals or pariahs it will now be in plastic or cheaper, but not worth fielding.

If it's new and they want to sell it as being the new uber thing (pyrovore aside - nice model with stunningly cruddy rules) it will be substantially better than the previous good unit was before it got a nerfbat enema. (trygon replacing Carnifex for example).

The units with the really good rules (fluff is already a non-starter with the writer..) will cost the earth even by GW standards or not have a model released for another decade.


I may just stick to using my old codex, and play my orks at tournaments. I'm going to reserve my vitriol supply down to a trickle until i can read the book cover to covwer a few times, but if the rumors are right i'm probably going to be thoroughly disappointed.

Kilink wrote:http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/08/40k-rumors-necron-special-rules.html

I'm going to sigh now...

Hooray...

I'm not getting what "Eternal Life" is supposed to do.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Kilink wrote:http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/08/40k-rumors-necron-special-rules.html

I'm going to sigh now...

Hooray...

I'm not getting what "Eternal Life" is supposed to do.

My interpretation is that as soon as you lose the wound you get a chance to roll, and on a 5+ you get it back instantly.

none of it matters cause it will never be released, GW dont think we're important enough. they got better things to do.

lowmanjason wrote:none of it matters cause it will never be released, GW dont think we're important enough. they got better things to do.

Now that is naysaying if I've ever heard it.

After 10 years of waiting it's going to have to be a great codex, well balanced and decently fluffed, to get much approval.

Dark Eldar's re-release managed this, with awesome looking new models across the line and a complete redesign across the whole codex that made sense and involved a good deal of thought. The fluff was rewritten to keep as much of the original fluff as possible while changing the theme from junkie tarts in bondagewear to evil space fey (in armoured bondagewear ).

There were a couple of somewhat underpowered units in there, but as a whole the codex is very solid and well recieved (by folks i've asked about it anyhow ).

I have the codex and a few models, and nothing could have induced me to play them before the revisit.


I have a sneaking suspicion that the Necron revisit won't involve the same level of detail and committment.

It seems to me, from the rumors to run more like this:

Hmm.. open topped skimmers went over well for the DE, do some for Necrons too. Put lots of skulls on them.

Get Matt to write the rules. He'll get them dumbed down and nerfed (except for the new units) so the Marine players can stop having to loophole living metal and whining about WBB.

Oh and knock off a few points on the warriors, but make them weaker than marines. Can't have them beating our Boys in Blue after all. Maye if we can get the points low enough for the Necron players to actually field 6 maxed troops choices we'll sell more warriors... Up the box price on those, ok?

I don't think it's going to be near as bad as you are saying Ascalam.


I think the Necron Codex is going to be great. I'm not predicting something as grand as the Dark Eldar release, but I still think it will be solid, and will bring the Necrons up to where they need to be.

Reanimation: - An updated variant of We'll Be Back. Models with this rule who were killed last turn roll a d6 at the end of each phase, regardless of what caused the wound (thunder hammer, etc...); standing back up on a 5+. Res Orbs makes this a 4+ roll if within 6".
Interesting... so you'd get 3 chances to roll WWB, or 6? At the end of each phase (movement, shooting, and assault), would be significantly better than the current WWB.

Eternal Life: - for ICs, this grants a Reanimation roll after the model loses its last wound. If successful, the IC stands back up with 1 wound and, if within 1"of enemy models is placed in assault with them.
Seems good, others are saying with the IC looses any wounds... the wording says differently. It seems to me that Eternal Life is an additional WBB that happens at the time of wound. This seems very fluffy...

Living Metal: - Crew Shaken results are ignored on a 2+, Crew Stunned results are ignored on a 4+. All other current codex benefits are removed.
Don't know what I think about this one. Seems likely to balance out the strength of the Monolith.

Gauss Weapons: - Armor penetration rolls of 6 auto-glance, to-wound rolls of 6 auto wound.
Makes sense to me... Gauss weapons are described as molecular sandpaper... makes sense to me that it would damage fleshies the same way it damages the vehicles.

Seems like a bunch of wish-listing with a twist of 'yeah, that's overpowered and should be changed'. I wouldn't be up in arms if these changes actually happen.

I second Sasori; I doubt that it'll be as bad as Ascalam (and others) fear. Ward's other codices are fairly balanced, and we know that others have been involved.

New necron 'dex. Hooray!!

ajax22 wrote:New necron 'dex. Hooray!!

No evidence yet.

DarknessEternal wrote:

ajax22 wrote:New necron 'dex. Hooray!!

No evidence yet.

Unless you count numerous reliable sources and GW removing relatively all the product.

NecronLord3 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

ajax22 wrote:New necron 'dex. Hooray!!

No evidence yet.

Unless you count numerous reliable sources and GW removing relatively all the product.

Neither of those things are technically evidence. A reliable source of rumours is still rumours, and GW removing the product could mean that they need to make room for the new dark and mysterious chapter of Space Marines that come from the dark planet of Mius'littles Ponius.

NecronLord3 wrote:
Unless you count numerous reliable sources and GW removing relatively all the product.

GW removing product isn't a great way to tell things are happening. Sisters went direct-only and lost their boxed sets at least two years ago, and that hasn't meant diddly.

Lets finish this conversation in a month or two.

Each "rumor update" is making me not want to play more and more. Granted, the price gouging isn't helping that either.