Like most games, I don't see why you couldn't just set up a small force and skirmish with people to get some interest going.
If you wanted to do so with more 'official' backing, I believe Palladium has mentioned using their "Megaversal Ambassador" program to that end via members who are interested. Nothing particularly secret, far as I know, they're like Wyrd's Henchmen; fans who have expressed an interest in sharing their passion for the hobby. But I'm not sure what hoops one may or may not have to jump through to become a member.
If you wanted significant official backing (like, running tournaments and leagues and whatnot), it might be worth getting in touch with Ninja Division eventually and seeing if they'll be doing something like that themselves. PB has said ND is looking at building a tournament system next year, and obviously trying to get in touch with them now is likely a fool's errand, as Gencon will probably tie them up for at least the next week or two. Maybe reach out to ND/PB in September and express your interest?
Forar wrote: Well, they did say "hopefully" for this past weekend. It's possible they just didn't get the finishing touches on and we'll see it today or sometime this week in general.
"Small company" as PB and ND might both be, I'm assuming they're not sending every last person to Gencon? Surely someone will be in the office, manning the phones and working on odds and ends.
But I certainly concede that we might not get much more out of them until after the weekend.
A lot of small companies do pretty much shut down for big events like Gen Con. It looks like Palladium has a 20x20 booth (same as last year, I think) that is completely free-standing. (No shared wall with another booth to act as a backstop.) You really need a couple people at all times when the exhibit hall is open to run the booth... So that means 3-4 people a day, assuming they're willing to kill themselves. Running demos means more people. Events elsewhere mean more people. The open booth is a little scarier as during a big rush someone could try to grab merch while passing by.
I thought PB was pretty heavy on contracted writers anyway, so it wouldn't surprise me if they're shooting for a couple people for the Palladium side and another 2-3 for the ND side at all times.
But, yeah, they gotta get back on the horse quick when they get home. I know my voice is shot, but I'm cool with doing some other work the day I get home.
Those definitely look better than the last color shots we had of the stuff.
The MAC and Eldare look well proportioned.
[Edit] I also read somewhere that they only had 60 of each on hand and not 125 as advertised. Although that might be their attempt to spread them out over the day.
Also, they are already on Ebay. One for $100 and another for $90 for the pair.
Screw Palladium.
One seller apparently has 5 copies.. so much for their one per person crap.
It's not hard to subvert this if you've got friends/paid folk to buy them for you
(not saying they aren't selling as many as folk ask for, just floating the possibility, I've seen similar compaints over con limited stuff posted for Soda Pop (Nyan Nyan), and CMON (Kingdom Death new twilight knights)
It's not hard to subvert this if you've got friends/paid folk to buy them for you
(not saying they aren't selling as many as folk ask for, just floating the possibility, I've seen similar compaints over con limited stuff posted for Soda Pop (Nyan Nyan), and CMON (Kingdom Death new twilight knights)
Correction.. he has five left and sold two so 7 total of each. While it's not impossible that 7 people ran right away to the booth and grabbed the minis within the 5 minutes of door opening during which they sold out and then 6 of them just turned around and gave them to the one guy selling it on ebay, the most likely explanation for me personally (and I do admit I'm very cynical when it comes to palladium) is that someone manning the booth simply sold the minis just like they sell the other 99.999% of products at the palladium booth for the past 20 years as first come, first served no limits purchase. YMMV.
I was there yesterday at the booth. The game is actually a lot of fun. Quick and easy to play. The zentradi missile defense ability is kind of OP. If they roll a 5 o 6 they shoot down the entire volley not just the missile. Missiles do a 5" blast around the target though and will kill zentradi pods like nothing. In my demo it came down to a roll of initiative to win the game. Alone vf-1a and a single pod in a wild west show down. I'll upload the pictures I have here in a bit. The max mini and mira minis are simple conversions even for the inexperienced modeler to complete. I actually want to do a green stuff mod of max in a coat and hat. None the less the game is fun. And once you get used to the activation system it will play even faster.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the demo game I got to play of Robotech RPG tactics our final round of combat end up as a Wild West show down.
Limited edition Max - This is really is not a miniature you could not convert with a bit of ease.
I am actually interested in the game. If it is quick and easy to play then I might have a shot at getting friends to play. I hope the rules also scale up well to large-scale battles.
BrotherKarr wrote: I actually want to do a green stuff mod of max in a coat and hat. None the less the game is fun. And once you get used to the activation system it will play even faster.
Thanks for the recap and pics as well as for using the robotech track (woohoo... that makes thee with forar!). if you're a kickstarter backer, they're already planning on releasing a max in coat/hat as one of the objective markers in case you missed that during the campaign.
@judgedoug You swung through the KS comments and said you didn't enjoy your demo. Any chance you might give us more in depth feedback? Was there anything you liked? What specifically didn't you like? Etc.
From the bottom of the latest update, ForceOrg charts
UEDF and Zentraedi Force Organization Charts!
Ninja Dave got these together last week, but with preparations for Gen Con, we just couldn't get them posted before we left. But here they are, force organization charts for UEDF and Zentraedi armies. Dave's still working on ones for the Malcontents, but we'll try to get them posted as soon as we can.
Forar wrote: @judgedoug You swung through the KS comments and said you didn't enjoy your demo. Any chance you might give us more in depth feedback? Was there anything you liked? What specifically didn't you like? Etc.
I'd still like to get the JD breakdown here, if possible!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forar wrote: @judgedoug You swung through the KS comments and said you didn't enjoy your demo. Any chance you might give us more in depth feedback? Was there anything you liked? What specifically didn't you like? Etc.
I'd still like to get the JD breakdown here, if possible!
Sad to say, but beyond the mad 'paint' skills shown in the updated charts, either there have been some significant changes to the army organization, or there are omissions/errors present.
The three Zentraedi Experimental units are shown, but there's nothing for the Phalanx Experimental.
There's no longer any option to include a single Booster Sled with either the 'ground' or aerial forces on the Zentraedi side.
The 1D leads to a lot of weird points totals. It's possible there are upgrades that cover the 2/3/8/etc ranges so one can round them out (or just combine across cards) to hit 150/300/450/whatever points, but without much info at all on the "back of card upgrades", it's hard to say.
Basically, half marks for presenting info that fills in some of what we didn't know, but that's all I can give, because this raises more questions than it gives answers.
I'm looking through the force org stuff now, and while the UEDF stuff is all fine, I'm seeing a bunch of names in the Zentraedi ones that don't appear in the base packs or the add ons:
Telnesta-Regult
Queadluun-Gult (Possibly the Queadluun-Rau with the experimental upgrade kit?)
Nousgarma-Ger
Forar wrote:Sad to say, but beyond the mad 'paint' skills shown in the updated charts, either there have been some significant changes to the army organization, or there are omissions/errors present. *SNIP*
Basically, half marks for presenting info that fills in some of what we didn't know, but that's all I can give, because this raises more questions than it gives answers.
Indeed. It does always seem like they take two steps forward (communication!, squadron rules posted) and one back (squadron rules are either full of unexplained changes and/or glaring omissions/mistakes). See... Alpharius... this is why I post now in the Infinity thread! CB seems to have their act together.
Alpharius wrote:
Forar wrote: @judgedoug You swung through the KS comments and said you didn't enjoy your demo. Any chance you might give us more in depth feedback? Was there anything you liked? What specifically didn't you like? Etc.
I'd still like to get the JD breakdown here, if possible!
I actually pm'ed him during gencon when forar posted that to encourage him to post his thoughts.
Looking forward, I'm curious to see how the relationship between ND and PB progresses. It may just be complete idle gossip but there were reports (very vague) of a possbile rift (pun intended!) between the two regarding the rules. The mention of the ND guy just stopping in occasionally by the booth made me do a bit of a double take as the press releases made it sound like there would be a veritable gaggle of ND people at the booth. I'm curious to see if ND will be involved with a future Robotech KS.
I pm'd him a few days ago as well. I'm still new 'round here, but he didn't seem like the kind of forumer to drop a bomb like that and just wander off.
warboss wrote: Balance is there but he's likely working the Dp9 booth for most of the hall hours.
Yup. I never made it by the Palladium booth but I heard it was very busy. Some of our volunteers got some of the RT minis for sale. I still haven't heard how it plays, and the production minis look a bit better than the early online pics.
Far as I know, the display and game pieces were prototypes. Hopefully close to the final product, but not necessarily identical to what they'll be pumping out by the tens of thousands in the coming months.
No, I suspect he means the con special max and miriya. There haven't been any reports from any of the die hards about anything else getting out on the market (except for resales of the previous adepticon special mini).
A pewter battlepod that was released at Adepticon.
A pewter veritech ("Max") released at Gencon.
A resin (and pewter?) Female Power Armour ("Miriya") released at Gencon.
Not sure of numbers on the first, but I don't believe it was a huge supply. Only 500'ish of each Max and Miriya should be out there.
None have stat cards. They're less game pieces and more collector's items, though I'm sure there'll be some who do proudly play with them when the game goes 'live'.
There are some prototypes (material uncertain, 3D printed perhaps?) of other figures, but that's about it.
Hey guys,
sorry, I'm currently on vacation right now and have barely been hitting Dakka.
I posted on the KS comments "Man, the Robotech rules are really really clunky. I have a feeling I'll be using Battletech Alpha-Strike as the ruleset for my Robotech minis."
I didn't have a demo at Gencon (I didn't go to Gencon), I tried to solo play at home using the rules originally posted on the Kickstarter and I did not have any fun. There's too much dice rolling for individual units, thereby limiting it from being a viablelarge scale battle system, but the details felt lacking for a skirmish scale battle. It's like some sort of half-baked inbetween.
Now, perhaps the rules totally changed since then for the Gencon demos, but I don't think they have. And if they haven't, I'd rather use Alpha Strike with custom unit cards, as it plays faster.
Fair enough. The KS rules are months old and specifically ignore a lot of mechanics, but I can understand an expectation that the bare bones version of the game should be fun, and not enjoying what you saw.
And since I doubt many people check the Palladium weekly updates, there was a tidbit included about RRT:
"UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Molds are being made in China. We’re still on track for a November or December release. The BattleFoam bags should be able to hold a full set of Battle Cry game pieces. We’ll try to have more news and details about this exciting product line in the next Weekly Update or two."
Project Update #109: Gen Con Pics and Super VF-1Ds
Posted by Palladium BooksLike
Hey, Wayne from Palladium here.
First, I know many of you are anxious to hear about the VF-1D/VEF-1 pack, and how Supers will work. The latest from John at Ninja Division is that the pack will contain two standard frames that can each make a VF-1D or a VEF-1 in all 3 modes (so 2x VF-1D, or 2x VEF-1, or one of each). It will also contain the parts to make two Super VF-1Ds, in addition to those two standard Valkyries.
Technically, there is no Super VEF-1 in Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Our license does not allow it. (Sorry; we were disappointed, too.) However, if you make one or both of your standard Valkyries from the pack into VF-1Ds, there is nothing to stop you from using the leftover VEF-1 parts and making one or two of your Supers into VEF-1 versions for display purposes.
At this point, we do know that the standard VF-1D/VEF-1s in the pack will be made from the same plastic that the rest of the regular game pieces will be made from. However, there is the possibility that the parts to make the Super VF-1Ds will be resin or metal. I don’t think we've determined that for sure yet, but at one point it looked like the eventual retail version wouldn't contain the Super bits at all, and those would only be included for Kickstarter backers. If that is the case, the Super parts are likely to be available directly from us at some point in the future, but again, that’s still undetermined. Our focus for now has been to satisfy the Kickstarter backers who were counting on their Super versions.
While I'm a mild Robotech fan, via the Animated Series and the RPG in my youth, I can't say I've really kept up on it through the years. Can someone who's more knowledgable post some pics to show what a VF-1D, VEF-1, super-variants of both, (and the specialist parts!) I kinda remember bolt-on thrusters for some, but I really don't recall properly...
The only one I could find there was the VF-1D. Is the VEF-1 the same as the VEFR-1? And is the "Super" simply the addition of the jetpacks/extra thurusters?
The two electronic variants are exactly the same but they're quite similar both in looks (with a few differences) and their function/role. I believe the exact look of the electronics on their arms are the biggest differences. As for the "Supers", it adds the pieces you got separately in red on the old Jetfire Transformers model. They contain mainly extra maneuvering thrusters and additional missiles.
Cross posted from the other thread to make sure everyone sees this;
I haven't seen an answer yet to the "booster sled issue" (they were listed as available as a solo upgrade to cards that didn't have an Officer Pod in them already, the 'new' force organization charts don't list them solo at all; oversight? Balance change? Who knows. vOv ).
There's also been a heads up on the VEF/1D 'issue'; apparently the pack will contain 2 figures that can be built as any combination of VEF-1's and 1D's, as well as bits (possibly pewter or resin) and other figure parts to make 2 Super 1D's.
Yes, it has been confirmed that as it currently stands, one $35 add on will make 4 full Valkyries. They've also said that they're not sure this 4 pack will be available at retail (might just be split into two different packs).
Weird? A little, given how long this has been up in the air. 4 Valkyries (12 figures) for $35 is pretty damned good, even if I'm not sure how much I'd actually use Super 1D's, I do like the idea of being able to build a pair of VEF's, and more Supers of any kind are just icing on the cake.
That may make me change my add ons. I didn't add anything beyond my initially pledged amount because of the Max/Miriyia BS but I may drop the MAC II for the VEF/D pack if I get two supers in the kit as well. I can go without the MACII for a while and buy that locally when it comes out but the extra supers right out of the gate would be nice for my battlecry pledge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From the latest update:
Project Update #110: BackerKit Lockdown Update
Posted by Palladium Books Like
Hello, all. Wayne at Palladium with just a quick update.
We were looking at the calendar today and realized that with our BackerKit Lockdown date of August 31 falling on a Saturday, and the following Monday being a holiday in the U.S., the credit cards of those who spent extra in BackerKit won't actually be charged until Tuesday or Wednesday. That being the case, we decided we might as well give you all a couple more days to decide on your Add-Ons, so the Lockdown date has been pushed back to Tuesday, September 3rd.
That means that if you haven't finished selecting your Add-Ons in the BackerKit pledge manager, you should make sure to do so by Monday, September 2nd, because sometime the next day, everyone's orders will be locked down, and you'll be unable to make any further changes. Once that happens, credit cards will begin to be charged for those of you who spent extra in the BackerKit pledge manager.
And now, since you missed out last week, and since it's been on many people's minds of late, here's a look at the Super VF-1D in Battloid mode. (Don't worry, other modes are coming.)
Yes, it has been confirmed that as it currently stands, one $35 add on will make 4 full Valkyries. They've also said that they're not sure this 4 pack will be available at retail (might just be split into two different packs).
Weird? A little, given how long this has been up in the air. 4 Valkyries (12 figures) for $35 is pretty damned good, even if I'm not sure how much I'd actually use Super 1D's, I do like the idea of being able to build a pair of VEF's, and more Supers of any kind are just icing on the cake.
Creator Palladium Books about 1 hour ago
@John, The Glaug-Eldare can be fielded as an Elite Core Squadron of 3x Glaug-Eldare for 150 points. Alternately, a standard Glaug can be added to either a Regult Core Squadron or an Elite Core Squadron that doesn't already contain one for 20 points, and in either case, can be upgraded to a Glaug-Eldare for an additional 30 points. So yes, for 50 points you can add a Glaug-Eldare to a Regult or Elite Core Squadron that doesn't already contain a Glaug or Glaug-Eldare.
warboss wrote: Isn't it $30 or is there a change I missed?
Nope, it's $30, I mis-remembered the price. My bad.
Though it does make the pack even better. I'm seriously tapped out where I am, but that's pretty tempting.
And yes, I'm aware that they likely know it.
"Hrm, haven't fed the 'base' any red meat lately... yeah, so we're doubling the figures in a $30 box, and oops, guess we'll just extend that pledge manager period a couple of days, tee hee..."
Don't play coy with me!
And yeah, we got our answer.
No idea why they didn't just include it in Update #110... it's been asked in the comments, their forums and a variety of other places repeatedly since we got the new charts.
No idea why they didn't just include it in Update #110... it's been asked in the comments, their forums and a variety of other places repeatedly since we got the new charts.
Palladium. 'Nuff said. In case it's not, they likely got advice not to from the same lawyer that says they should aggressively pursue their own fan sites for conversions.
The bit about "We can't include the Super VEF-1 because of the license." makes me worried about what with happen with the YF-4. Technically they only appeared in fighter mode in the series.
I don't think it'll be a problem, much like the 'experimental' units, it doesn't seem to be an issue if the unit is either entirely made up or based on an animation error (in this case, a fighter that doesn't have a 'canon' Guardian or Battloid mode, by the looks of it from the Wiki?).
Has the YF-4 shown up in any other series? If so, then yeah I guess that could be a problem, but if that's the case than the wiki is out of date and someone should totally go rectify it. :-D
IIRC the "VF-4" shows up in flashback and other macross scenes outside of what was used in Robotech but that is the production designation of the same looking fighter and not the prototype "YF" version. It's nitpicking but I think that's how it squeaked through similar to the VEF.
I've heard that a VEF shows up for a few seconds in the long pan of the arrayed forces prior to the battle with Dolza's fleet, but that's just repeating something from the comments, I don't have a screencap handy or anything.
Forar wrote: I've heard that a VEF shows up for a few seconds in the long pan of the arrayed forces prior to the battle with Dolza's fleet, but that's just repeating something from the comments, I don't have a screencap handy or anything.
Also, there's rumblings on the comments about the Battle Foam bag possibly being a 720 (seems unlikely) PACK, a 432 PACK (more reasonable), or Warmahordes size (a cursory glance isn't even showing this in the list, but presumably it's in that size range).
I really wish they'd at least answer whether or not it's a PACK compatible bag (so it can be expanded modularly as desired) and a rough size. Look, if it's truly a custom run and it's between the 432 and the 720 or something, fine, but at least give us a range, a ballpark. "A battlefoam bag" has an awful lot of leeway present, between "Yeah, I'd rather just pay the extra $25 for a larger standard bag" and "OMG THIS SAVES ME LIKE $100 AND IT'S PERFECT!!"
We finally got some vague force org updates, answered the Eldare issue (in an update comment... *facepalm*) and even beefed up the VEF pack... c'mon guys, bring us home with at least a little Battlefoam info.
Have any of the other game licensed bags ever been PACK compatible? That trend (now that there are probably a dozen or so specialty game bags) might give you a hint. I don't personally follow battlefoam product releases much so can't help you there.
I don't know, this is my first KS with a battlefoam bag. :-P
On the other hand, comments indicate that people have emailed or talked to Battlefoam at conventions, and been told a variety of responses; that it might be a 432, that it might be a Warmahordes bag, that it might be a 720, etc. They could very well just be using those numbers to represent size, but given that a single bag will reportedly hold a "Battle Cry" and there are at least 1,500 (probably closer to 1/3 of the backers, when accounting for bumps up to higher tiers) who are getting at least 2 packs. Making the RDF packs modularly compatible with the rest of the PACK system could be a wise choice if it led to people buying more bags at retail as their collection expanded, for transportation and/or storage.
warboss wrote: Have any of the other game licensed bags ever been PACK compatible? That trend (now that there are probably a dozen or so specialty game bags) might give you a hint. I don't personally follow battlefoam product releases much so can't help you there.
The Heavy Gear bag is: It's a bit smaller than the regular sizes, but only in depth. The height/width of trays is BattleFoam standard. If I was running a company with a licensed bag, I think I'd prefer this as the 'licensed' bag is a standard size, gets the company name out, etc. while allowing players to move up to a bigger solution later if needed (I personally have a HG bag and a Pack GO and have trays for HG, 40k, and Dystopian Wars that I can swap-in as needed).
I wouldn't assume anything until they publish detailed info (which will obviously be too late for buying at that price). Basically, if you think a battlecry fitting bag is a good deal at that price, get it. I doubt it'll be pack compatible (an admitedly quick look at their licensed bag selection shows they tend to be stand alone bags) so I wouldn't count on that.
warboss wrote: I wouldn't assume anything until they publish detailed info (which will obviously be too late for buying at that price). Basically, if you think a battlecry fitting bag is a good deal at that price, get it. I doubt it'll be pack compatible (an admitedly quick look at their licensed bag selection shows they tend to be stand alone bags) so I wouldn't count on that.
True. I was just providing one counter-example. I bought a ton of Battlefoam trays last year and moved things like my Sisters over to them so they're better packed for storage/moving and I could throw them in a bag and take'em to a game if I actually got motivated to play 40k.
LOL, I wasn't trying to refute your example as I didn't see you post it but rather was commenting to Forar above. Your post beat mine by 4 seconds to the thread.
Sorry, not yet. We know many of you are anxious to hear more about the Battle Foam bag, and we are working on getting that information to you as soon as we can. We've contacted the Ninja Division guys for figure dimensions, and we’ll be talking with the Battle Foam folks about materials, maybe P.A.C.K. compatibility, and other options tomorrow or next week. All we know so far is that we've been told it should be able to contain one full Battle Cry reward’s game pieces. We’ll let you know more when we know, and we’re going to do our best to sort it out before the BackerKit closes, if possible.
They've "been told" by Battlefoam the unidentified bag will fit a BattleCry, but haven't actually given the minis dimensions to them yet, and PACK hasn't even been negotiated.
So really, they don't even know themselves.
Also in the same update, Backerkit deadline pushed back a week 'by request', so I'd expect the delivery deadline to start visibly slipping soon as well.
Well, with a target of November for retail, that'd mean needing to ship the boxes in Late Oct/early November to even remotely meet that goal, and the PM won't even end until early Sept...
Yeah, there's still time, but not a lot of it. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we heard in the near future that they wouldn't be debuting at Detroit Fanfare at the end of Oct.
There's no chance of this hitting before Christmas. Look at March-April (ie past the black hole that is Chinese New Year). Beware the Battlefoam promises as well. They were stating that their SW bags would fit the Sedition Wars board tiles at one stage.
I can't say I'm a fan of the Max in a zentraedi disguise render. I realize that it in some parts like the chest fits the profile of a veritech but I see that and instead picture a Conan-era Arnold Schwarzenegger cosplaying the scene.
Azazelx wrote: There's no chance of this hitting before Christmas. Look at March-April (ie past the black hole that is Chinese New Year).
Game Trade Magazine has a street date of October. I just recently found out about this publication, but they seem to be legit. It's possible the article or issue is using old information, or that design/production snags will prove to be insurmountable in that timeframe, but if that's what they're telling distributors/stores, it's worth noting.
Yes, yes, Palladium couldn't find an on time release date with both hands and a map. Just sayin', that's more than 'oh yeah, like maybe we'll get it out in the fall, maybe'.
They've also said they're hoping to debut at the Detroit Fanfare at the end of October, so that'd be consistent as well. However, these statements were always coached as maybes, as possibilities, nothing set in stone, etc, and it is noteworthy that after touting it for a few of their weekly musings in a row they've been fairly quiet on the matter recently.
To be utterly clear, I actually agree with you. I've set my hopes at December (their initially projected release) and wouldn't in the least be surprised by a Q1 2014 launch.
But they keep saying Fall 2013, so let's see if they can actually keep their word. I suspect we'll start having a good idea fairly soon; in order to even remotely get some of the packages out to backers before the debut, they'd need to start shipping in the next 6 weeks, which would mean production would need to complete in the next few weeks tops, and even that would be cutting it seriously close with needing to move this stuff from China to regional distribution centers. It's overly optimistic, but man, if they get those figures to us in the next two months, I certainly wouldn't complain. I'm not expecting it, I'm actively expecting to hear of delays in the next month or so, but it'd be nice.
I too remain hopeful that they'll meet the original Dec release date despite the subsequent (day after) earlier dates. GTM is a legitimate source but their articles are only as accurate as their source. If Palladium can't be honest with themselves on a weekly basis with their own press releases, I don't think the info they give a magazine 4-6 weeks ahead of time (to allow for the magazine to be made/printed/distributed) will be any more accurate.
The way I see it, is I'm hoping to get it in March-April. My experience with Kickstarters has been that even allowing for significant delays still leads to disappointment when stuff arrives even later than the "Only x months later, I hope." timeline.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be shocked and surprised by a October or December release, but after so many soul-crushing disappointments (Dreamforge, Sedition Wars, etc) - several of which have led to a lack of interest in the final product (aka effectively flushing money down le toilet), I'm not even hoping to myself that this stuff will arrive in 2013.
Azazelx, at least this Kickstarter is tied into some media product. When you get your reward in early 2016, you can just put on some Robotech (or read the novels like I plan to do) to kickstart your interest. You could even look into similar transforming-mecha anime you haven't seen, if Macross ain't doin' it. Robotech is great that way. Sedition Wars? Not so much.
Yeah, I just got my Shadowrun Returns shirt in the mail this week, literally 8 months after the original expected delivery date (though the stretch goals did expand the scope of the game considerably), but I enjoyed the game and am glad to have been a small part of it being developed, so I'm not complaining.
Of course, they also sent out roughly monthly updates that didn't require me to go hunting through their forums. >.>
So I'm no stranger to extended development/delivery times. It's actually kind of fascinating seeing what they say their estimates are, and what they give as industry info.
There was a gaming blog that interviewed Kevin at Gencon, during which he said that their target release is still Nov/Dec, which is probably the most recent, direct and public estimate they've released.
Of course, the follow up question should've been "November or December of what year?" :-P
Tempted to chew through the novels again, see if I can do it before the boxes go out. Sure, if the delivery is next year it's no question, but it's like a million words in print, so if it's this year that could take a little effort.
The latest update has some much improved objectives. I'm still going to just make my own from a spare veritech but these seem better sculpted than the more comical ones. Forar also looks like you got some more definitive answers about the battlefoam pack as well as finally a mention if the much delayed Design an Ace contest.
warboss wrote: Forar also looks like you got some more definitive answers about the battlefoam pack as well as finally a mention if the much delayed Design an Ace contest.
Yeah, glad we finally got some answers, but it does mean I'm out on the battlefoam. Rather just buy a 720 next year and slap an RDF logo on it. Doubly so since they specifically mention it likely won't fit a MAC II, which is kind of a dealbreaker.
Apparently (from the comments), the BF bag may be KS exclusive, unless they work something out with Harmony Gold and Battlefoam... I have no idea what is even going on anymore.
warboss wrote: The latest update has some much improved objectives. I'm still going to just make my own from a spare veritech but these seem better sculpted than the more comical ones. Forar also looks like you got some more definitive answers about the battlefoam pack as well as finally a mention if the much delayed Design an Ace contest.
Those do look very good. For a second I considered getting them, then I realised I could easily make my own from some of the many figures included.
I'd like to get a pair of the Battlefoam cases as well, but I just don't have the extra $200. Getting BF bags is a real pain in the arse here in Australia, due to shipping from the US or the insane local distributor/retailer markup.
One other thing buried in a comment to Forar and somehow not included in the update is that the post KS revised dates of Oct/Nov are out and mid Dec is now the target.
Possibly the biggest piece of information we could get about this campaign was buried in the comments and not included in an update?
... that's actually quite perfect. It works on so many levels, it has layers like an onion.
Well, that would explain why they suddenly got really quiet about RRT being at Fanfare over a month ago. They just weren't ready to admit it out loud yet.
Edit: wait, where was the comment made? I'm not seeing it on 112, or in the general comments. Just looking for a source before I break the news to my crew.
Edit 2: Nevermind, found it in 111.
Creator Palladium Books @Forar Yeah, October isn't going to happen. I meant to mention that in today's update, but it slipped my mind. Anything that still says October is out of date info. We had hoped to squeak it out by the end of October, but that was not meant to be. November is almost certainly not going to happen, either. We're looking squarely at the middle of December at the moment.
Because of the myriad confusing ways info gets disseminated for this KS, once a week I usually check the palladium site, palladium forums, and their comments on the kickstartet via their profile page to make sure nothing is missed. That is how I found that important nugget. In between, I largely just depend on updates people like yourself post here on dakka or what a friend messages me about.
Gencon demo gameplay video is up. Nothing earth shattering but nice to see in action. I still find myself mentally translating the minis/rules into both xwing and heavy gear but I'll give the finalized rules a fair shake and review upon release before making a final decision.
It was supposed to end Sunday/Monday at some point (the exact time was never stated, and the day fluctuated a bit depending on which comment you read), so yeah, it's been a day or two now.
Might be worth tossing them an email or calling their office if it's something you want attended to quickly (yes, I know, that shouldn't be necessary, I agree, just proposing alternatives to waiting).
Last I checked my card hadn't been charged either.
Yeah, the email finally came through a few hours ago.
Still hasn't shown up on my credit card (as of a few hours ago as well), but I'll give that another day. I'd like to at least have it hit before the weekend so I know how much to get from my fellow backer friends for the rest of their share.
I'll have a game update up shortly. Here is an updated copy of the pre-released rules with updates based off of the Tactical Briefings and some info from the RPG.
Supposedly shortly after backers get their products. The timetable says mid Dec 2013 right now for backers but it is a kickstarter... run by Palladium who haven't finished their previous two crowdfunding endeavors scheduled for release in late summer 2012... worked on by the guys who have yet to bring you Relic Knights. I'd suggest flavoring the Dec 2013 date with a whole lotta salt just in case.
They had previously stated that they're shipping to backers first and right after to distributors/stores. Only a select portion of the minis will be available on the normal market right away though (basically, the starter box and boosters of anything in the starter box IIRC).
A tiny, almost pedantic clarification; Wave 1 is supposed to be the Starter Box and the following expansions;
Battlepod pack (6) Command Pod Pack (Command Pod, Recon Pod, Recovery Pod) Artillery Support Pack (4, can be made as Light or Heavy). Veritech Pack (2 fighters in 3 modes each) Tomahawk/Defender Pack (2 each, 4 models total) Spartan/Phalanx Pack (2 each, 4 models total).
So basically 'what is found in the starter, plus one other expansion for each side', in that the Artillery Pods and Phalanx/Spartans aren't found in the base box.
But everything else said is right on the money. They gave an initial target of December, then the day after the campaign closed they revised that to a tentative/hopeful October/November, then doubled down by hoping to debut the game at Detroit Fanfare at the end of October, and then last week they revised it again to December for Backers, with retail sometime (presumably shortly) thereafter.
I've taken to reading through the updates provided for Relic Knights, to see how they compare against the Ninja Division efforts. It's interesting to see how SP started providing stat cards and regular updates compared to the Robotech campaign. Obviously there are more cooks in the kitchen on this one, it being a joint endeavor between 3 entities, one of which is made up of personnel from several others, but it'd be nice to start getting, say, a weekly card (front and back).
Starting to hit updates closer to when the original estimate showed up, I imagine the following pages should make for enlightening reading material.
Edit: apparently one thing they used to assuage the ire of the backers was to promise a pdf version of the rules back in April. Preeeety sure PB will be quashing that.
I've been peripherally following the relic knights thread so I may be off on my dates but IIRC that campaign is on track to be 6 months late at this point (assuming nothing else goes wrong). IIRC it was only once they announced just how late they were going to be that they started releasing rules and other paper-type products to placate the masses. If they only started releasing weekly stat cards when for instance 4 months late (taking a wild guess there), it wouldn't be fair to compare Robotech to Relic Knights until 4 months after the initial KS due date of December 2013.
That said... I firmly believe that they should publish the stats and rules prior to the game's release for free. This isn't an RPG like they're used to selling and they won't make their profits off of the rules themselves but rather the hordes of minis you can use with the rules. Palladium is *ahem* not exactly known for solid rules and apparently the first release of Relic Knights rules weren't exactly well recieved either so a public vetting might help get rid of some of the most obvious and egregious problems that the playtesters didn't catch or that the companies didn't feel were problems but are. Publishing the rules (assuming that they're not buggy flawed pieces of crap) is basically advertising for your game and encourages hype/discussion.
Nah, going back through the updates, they started putting out at least a few cards and book pages in, like, February, but didn't announce the push to November until April. I'm not actually in the campaign, so I'm just perusing the comments and updates. They also had giant piles of pics for figures during December, some kind of 'christmas present', it seems.
But yeah, 5-6 months delayed, though that seems to tie into both Chinese New Year and getting their stuff slotted into the production schedule of the factory they're working with.
... hopefully Ninja Division isn't working with the same one. "ooops, looks like Robotech will have to get pushed back to March because Relic Knights ate up 3 months of production time we were hoping to snag."
If that happened they might as well just include a trollface.jpg in with the update.
Forar wrote: ... hopefully Ninja Division isn't working with the same one. "ooops, looks like Robotech will have to get pushed back to March because Relic Knights ate up 3 months of production time we were hoping to snag."
If that happened they might as well just include a trollface.jpg in with the update.
You know.. even my pessimistic mind hadn't thought of that... wow.. yeah.. that is possible as a worst case scenario and would suck royally. I would hope that the two schedules/contracts/factories are separate but, judging from reports across the virtual street from the videogame world where money/resources/people paid to work on one game are reappropriated for another when the poop hits the fan, it's not impossible. I have *zero* insider info but my impression was that Palladium was using Soda's connections in the minis world as they themselves have almost none so there is a big chance that they're being made at the same place since there doesn't seem to be alot of factories interested in doing toy soldier minis. Hopefully it's not the case and CMON directly handled the relic knights plastics production.
I've created stats that I feel are close to what is intended with the Robotech release. I have all the UEDF and Zen units except the Jotun, YF-4's, and experimental Zentraedi units. I've been tinkering with stats for Southern Cross, New Gen, Invid, and Sentinels units. They are availble to download on my google drive. I should probably update with what I did earlier this week. I've had to create a few new traits like shield to handle the invid's arm shields and the Hovertanks and Logan's shields. I also invented a quick stat. This makes units that are small and fast like cyclones and bioroids have a +1 bonus when dodging but does not increase the defense stat. So these units are not harder to hit but can dodge easier when they are hit and the cost of a command point.
From the recent press release...
"Also in final production is Robotech® RPG Tactics™. The finished rule book, stat cards, box designs, and other elements are all in final production and starting to come in for final feedback and approval. ALL sculpts but one have been completed, approved and sent to manufacturing for mold-making. The game line is dynamic and powerful. Though there have been some unexpected delays at Ninja Division and in mold-making, we are still shooting for a December release."
also...
"Yes, there are some advertisements and promotional material circulating that says Robotech® RPG Tactics™ will be out in the Fall of 2013. Others suggest November or December. These were our original projections based on the best information Palladium Books and Ninja Division had at the time. A) We are still shooting for a December release, but don’t know yet if that’s a sure thing. B) Kickstarter supporters will be shipped goods BEFORE Palladium ships to distributors. We appreciate your support and have your back. "
I got the above from the comments section. This could explain a lack of updates. Also real classy of PB throwing ND under the bus in case there is a delay announcement.
Brother Weasel wrote: It's not really throwing under the bus if there are delays at ND and in mold making...
would you rather them say everything is going fine and it should be released tomorrow, and have it not happen?
or maybe "we have problems so there will be a delay" (at which time everyone who cares will be up in arms that they don't tell what the problems is)
A statement by Palladium is saying "it's late but the other guy did it". The right way is for Palladium to say "it's late due to some unavoidable issues. We're working to get things out ASAP. " and potentially have ND release a statement. As the project manager (essentially PBs role) throwing someone under the bus like that is annoying to me.
We don't need specifics of what caused the delay (unless there's delay after delay after delay... Ref: Sedition Wars).
so, either they should tell everything or nothing. (by reading 2 different posts...)
I'm no megafan of Palladium, though i did enjoy their stuff when i played more RPGs,
But seriously "it's late due to some unavoidable issues. We're working to get things out ASAP. " you thin that won't cause an uproar of people who would just blame it on palladium always being late?
Meh, i just don't see it the same way, maybe i'm to old
Brother Weasel wrote: But seriously "it's late due to some unavoidable issues. We're working to get things out ASAP. " you thin that won't cause an uproar of people who would just blame it on palladium always being late?
As the people managing the project, they are late. It's their responsibility it the product makes it out late.
Is it always their fault? No. But they're the ones that announced the deadlines (and shortened/extended them). They're the ones coordinating everything.
If I order something from my FLGS and he tells me weekly that the distributor hasn't filled it for 4 months straight, I don't see it as his distributors fault. The FLGS is the one that took my money and should be getting me product.
Now - it's not realistic to take the molding/casting work elsewhere, but Palladium should take responsibility for building in essentially zero padding time into the schedule.
Didn't they say that most of the molds were already done?
Nah, they've been saying that most of the models were done for months now, but last we heard they're just starting to get molds done recently.
From their Sept 20th update:
Also in final production is Robotech® RPG Tactics™. The finished rule book, stat cards, box designs, and other elements are all in final production and starting to come in for final feedback and approval. ALL sculpts but one have been completed, approved and sent to manufacturing for mold-making. The game line is dynamic and powerful. Though there have been some unexpected delays at Ninja Division and in mold-making, we are still shooting for a December release.
A quick update on the Kickstarter with a preview pic. No word unfortunately on the almost 4 month delayed Design the Ace Contest.
Sorry for the Silence
At long last, an update! Sorry for the last couple weeks, everyone. Fear not, we've been very busy behind the scenes, working to put the final touches on everything and get manufacturing started. The rulebook is in final layout, and should be sent in for approvals sometime next week. The Jotun Armored Valkyrie sculpt is done, and you can see some posed renders below. We’re down to just a couple of sculpts left to finalize, namely a minor change to the Super Valkyrie, and a few modifications to the YF-4 Guardian and Battloid modes. Those should all be coming in any time now. Game stat cards have been laid out and are being finalized now. Product packaging is also in the works, so hopefully we can start showing final designs soon.
Delivery Estimate We are still shooting for a December ship date, but we don’t know yet if that’s a sure thing. What we do know is that Kickstarter backers will be shipped goods BEFORE we ship to distributors. What’s more, you’ll receive everything all at once, while the initial retail release will only include the main game and the first six expansion packs, with the rest coming out in waves throughout 2014. But you, wise Kickstarter backer, will already have all the things.
Including, as mentioned above, the mighty Jotun Armored Valkyrie, pictured here:
And from the latest murmur on the Palladium site....
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Whew, we are getting near the finish line for this project as well. We've had several telephone calls, traded scores of emails, and had one conference call to get Robotech® RPG Tactics™ into full-blown manufacturing. Jeff and Wayne have reviewed and sent feedback on 133 mecha stat cards, a few final sculpts, and preliminary material for the final packaging and text for it. Plus some last minute artwork additions. We are on the job and the game is looking good!
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Kickstarter Supporters
We’ll try to keep posting updates here and on the Kickstarter page with updates and progress on Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We appreciate your support and excitement about this product line.
The Alliance Trade Show, First Weekend of October
Wayne, Jeff and I will be at the Alliance Trade Show next weekend, where we’ll be demonstrating Robotech® RPG Tactics™, showing off game pieces, and chatting with Alliance sales reps (they are our biggest distributor) and a few hundred retailers. We have BIG plans for Rifts®, Robotech®, and all our game lines. If you are a retailer planning to attend the show, make sure you swing by the Palladium booth.
Eh, it's something. I'd like to hold them to a higher standard, but at this point I'll take what I can get.
They have 96 days until the end of the year (yes, I'm counting), and between production and two rounds of shipping (China to distribution, distribution to backers) I'm not overly optimistic. Like, it's nice to hear they're still aiming for December, but it's not going to be too long before they're going to have to gak or get off the pot, and either give us a thumbs up, or start the unfortunate update we're all at least partially expecting to show up any day now.
Bonus points if it's delivered as some kind of grand opportunity to deliver a quality product that they can all be happy with and know we'll totally love, like woah man.
Forar wrote: Eh, it's something. I'd like to hold them to a higher standard, but at this point I'll take what I can get.
They have 96 days until the end of the year (yes, I'm counting), and between production and two rounds of shipping (China to distribution, distribution to backers) I'm not overly optimistic. Like, it's nice to hear they're still aiming for December, but it's not going to be too long before they're going to have to gak or get off the pot, and either give us a thumbs up, or start the unfortunate update we're all at least partially expecting to show up any day now.
Bonus points if it's delivered as some kind of grand opportunity to deliver a quality product that they can all be happy with and know we'll totally love, like woah man.
Getting it during the original real release period (and not the farce that was the October revision) would be great and a bit unexpected so I've cautiously been expecting January instead. As long as it comes in January, I won't start whining about the delivery date. If I don't have all of it by May then imo there is ample reason for massive grumbling to start. That said... the "updates" are starting to sound alot like the ridiculous "we're in final stages... last bits of art are coming in.. almost ready to go!" announcements that we saw with the Northern Gun books this time last year that were obviously not true. They said the majority of sculpts were done *PRIOR* to the kickstarter which obviously wasn't true if they're still making changes to the super valkyrie which was one of the first couple of real unlocks (and something everyone expected unlike the Jotun). I consider sculpts done when they've been approved by Harmony Gold and are ready to go.. not just that some guy in the digital department says they're done and no one at ND or PB has preapproved them let alone sent them to HG for changes. Same thing with the art.
Here is the blurb from the front page of the KS that has been there from the very beginning. It sure does sound like they haven't done much since mid-April if you take both at their word...
To help ensure realistic deadlines, we have completed the vast majority of our development before launching the Kickstarter. Sculpts for the game pieces are almost entirely complete. The rulebook and game components are deep in development and will be ready for layout soon. Our manufacturers are also ready and have reserved factory time for the project. This means that as soon as the project is funded, we can lock down a timeline with our manufacturers to get the game produced.
To be fair warboss remember that the original KS did not have a large selection of minis. Valks, battloids, pods, and maybe the Glaug. If they people at Palladium honestly did not believe that the KS would get as far as it did then their statement that most of the molds were already done is true and correct. I think that adding of the backer # bonuses shows that they did not expect the response that they had and we pleasantly surprised. They may have not even thought they would as far as releasing the Mac II. Now they have to adjust for the final kickstarter results and be honest with us and with themselves and I am not 100% confident they are at this point.
I realize that which is why I specified a difference between the super valk being unfinished versus the Jotun. They had a bunch of "unlocks" that they had planned to include from the very beginning (like dice and markers) as they were in the intro video prior to the kickstarter actually starting let alone being unlocked. It's likely that the same is true of the "unlocked" models that everyone expected. Basically, anything that had a render pic during the KS is something that they obviously worked on but those same supposedly almost finished models are almost finished 4 months later yet again. I'm not sure if you're new to Palladium fandom but the above is a tried and true method they have used for decades (claiming they've done more than they actually have and counting their chicks before they've hatched).
Looks like we're in January territory as I expected back in May. I'd rather have a more realistic revised release date than the NG1 style endless circle of reassuring but empty platitudes. Kudos to palladium for putting on the big boy britches and taking off the rose colored glasses. Hopefully this will be the only delay. Also, it looks like the waves will be spaced apart about 3-4 months which is probably a good idea so it'll likely take all of 2014 to get the whole macross series out. They really should put this kind of stuff in Kickstarter updates though...
The rule book is laid out. We’re helping Ninja Division give it one last proofread. Alex and Julius went through it on Friday. Wayne’s looking it over now. The final sculpts for the YF-4 have also come in, and we’re looking over the redone 130+ data cards. Packaging has also started to come in. Once everything is finalized, we send it in to Harmony Gold for their stamp of approval (and any changes). After Harmony Gold signs off, we send it all in to manufacturing! Like I said last week, we can hardly wait to get Robotech® RPG Tactics™ into full-blown manufacturing and into your hands. Getting there. Looking awesome.
Palladium Books will be demonstrating the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game all weekend at the Detroit Fanfare Convention in Dearborn, Michigan, October 25-27. Convention special figures of Max and Miriya’s mecha (both in metal) will be available for sale at Fanfare – 100 of each. Sold on a first come, first served basis, while supplies last. These are the same convention exclusives sold at Gen Con, only Miriya is in white metal this time, not resin. The Harmony Gold Robotech® Tour is also taking place at this gaming and comic book convention, with special guest speakers and giveaways. Join the fun!
**snip**
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
The only product people are more excited about than the two Rifts® Northern Gun releases is Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Momentum is building to a fever pitch. Fans will not be disappointed. Demos at the Alliance Trade Show got nothing but big, toothy smiles and positive reviews. (You can demo it yourself at Detroit Fanfare, October 25-27, in Dearborn, Michigan). Here are some of the latest developments . . .
● Flexible Date of Release: We are still hopeful for December, but its release may slip into January, 2014. Ninja Division’s original projections had product delivery at October or November. I fear we were all a bit too optimistic. In order to make this game line everything it can be, there have been delays. As a result, the game has yet to begin manufacturing. That said, 98% of the work is completed, the game pieces look incredible, and Ninja Division is wrapping up on final packaging, layout and tweaks. We expect to get final approval from licensor Harmony Gold in two or three weeks. At which point, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ goes into manufacturing. Factoring in manufacturing time, shipping from China and other factors, it is looking more and like a January 2014 release. We’ll see. Note: As stated in the past, we will ship product to the Kickstarter supporters before we ship to distributors.
● Plastic game pieces. All of the 1/285th scale game pieces in the box set and expansion packs are plastic. (Special editions and limited releases for conventions and the Kickstarter may be in resin and/or metal.)
● Expansions released in waves. Palladium plans to release Robotech® RPG Tactics™ products in waves. The core box game and first six expansion packs will be the initial release. 4-6 additional expansion packs of mecha game pieces will ship approximately every three months thereafter.
● Robotech® RPG products – available now. Don’t forget that Robotech® RPG products are available now. They include the Robotech® Shadow Chronicles® core rule book available as a $30.95 hardcover (Cat. No. 550HC) and as a $16.95 manga-sized RPG paperback (Cat. No. 550), and the Macross® Saga Sourcebook (Cat. No. 551) which is the same setting as the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game. Each book is a wealth of background information about Robotech® and fun to read and play. With excitement growing for Robotech® RPG Tactics™, there is renewed interest in the Robotech® role-playing game line.
● New Robotech® RPG products coming in 2014. Palladium has three new Robotech® sourcebooks in development. UEEF Marines Sourcebook One, UEEF Marines Sourcebook Two and The Zentraedi Protectorate Sourcebook are all slated for release before Summer 2014. Additional Robotech® sourcebooks are on the drawing board.
● Palladium is working with Harmony Gold to expand the scope of its license to provide you with an even greater range of Robotech® products.
Yeah, for whatever snark and mockery I may bring up, I'd rather be dealt with honestly and clearly. I'm not excited about a January delivery, but if they make it, it's not a big deal either. If it becomes an ongoing series of delays one after the other, it'll be a problem.
As noted in the comments, I think early November will be our next checkpoint. If HG comes back with "yah bro, totes badass" and production actually begins (rather than just totally being 98% of the way to being done, where we've been for about four months), that'd be great. If we get "so we need to revise a couple of things, and maybe rewrite a bit, it's totally cool and you guys are going to love it!" some more, we might as well go find the torches and pitchforks, because if NG-1 has taught us anything, it's that simple patience just means you wait an extra year.
I'll start believing the palladium press release claims of "everyone at the office loved it! zomg!" when they post something about an upcoming book stating that "you know... pretty much everyone thought it sucked" and they don't get fired. You can't have every product be the ultimate superlative and expect people to not think you're full of crap/yourself.
warboss wrote: I'll start believing the palladium press release claims of "everyone at the office loved it! zomg!" when they post something about an upcoming book stating that "you know... pretty much everyone thought it sucked" and they don't get fired. You can't have every product be the ultimate superlative and expect people to not think you're full of crap/yourself.
Are you talking about ng1? PB throwing ND under the doesn't surprise me. With too many cooks in the kitchen Kev now has egg on his face, and from what I've read from the links posted here an on the ks comments I would bet that when the game comes out if it doesn't met folks expectations I'm sure he'll publicly blame everyone but himself. "Jazz Hands"
Lol, Forar, your *jazz hands*™ are officially a thing! While I agree that Palladium has a long history of playing the blame game, I don't think they're throwing ND under the figurative bus with those statements. While I doubt that the blame lies (pun intended) solely with one link in the chain, if ND has been busy with their own Relic Knights it is possible that they're at least partly to blame. The big issue for me is the grand proclamation preKS that 90% was done including HG approvals and sculpts (both absolutely untrue). What exactly about the super valkyrie was done and approved if theyre still tweaking everything from the rules to the art to the sculpt DURING the revised Oct delivery estimate?
I fear they will find that both manufacturing and especially shipping in the run up to Xmas (especially as it clearly has yet to be booked) will be a lot harder than they thought
You've then got customs just before or just after Xmas (so either when they're snowed under, or when they're giving time off in lieu for extra Xmas work)
Plus coming into a US where the Government may or may not be running right (or with luck may be recovering from the damage of not running)
my guess it will arrive at the warehouse late February and take till the end of April to finish shipping
Maybe they are waiting for me to finish the rules and test them for them.
If they actually were I'd do one of these!
I already emailed them and asked for a copy that I could use to game with and told them I'd sign a NDA. Lately it feels like I've done almost as much advertising as they have!
If they do this would be the 2nd published game with me put in as a playtester. The first one the company went the way of the dodo right after they published because they lost their primary game license.
@Forar: I hope your happy, because you've got others snared into your web derailing this thread. Now what were we talking about... Ah yes the "jazz hands" air wing...
Forar wrote: I'm now tempted to figure out a way in which I could reasonably paint a hand with motion symbols around it on something as small as a RRT figure.
The 42nd Air Wing "Jazzhands".
You could probably get custom decals made with this, if you can get someone to knock out a logo.
Cypher-xv wrote: @Forar: I hope your happy, because you've got others snared into your web derailing this thread. Now what were we talking about... Ah yes the "jazz hands" air wing...
Hey, if Palladium wants to interject and give us an updated taste of the rules, or some of those stat cards they recently revised, or actual good news about figures going into production, or something other than platitudes about how they're super excited to ship the boxes in December, I mean October/November, I mean December, I mean January, I'd be all for it.
Cypher-xv wrote: @Forar: I hope your happy, because you've got others snared into your web derailing this thread. Now what were we talking about... Ah yes the "jazz hands" air wing...
HQ: Hold on, Destroid Squadron Alpha! Support inbound... Jazz Hands squadron, what's your ETA?
Jazz Leader: On target in 5 minutes..
HQ: OK, Destr/
Jazz Leader: Er, Make that 8 minutes... but we're super excited to be providing close air support. We passed the strafing run details around the ARMD flight deck and everyone said this mission was the best they've seen yet!
Destroid Alpha Leader: Ack.. *gasp* Tell.. Minmei... we love her...
HQ: HQ to Jazz Leader you have incoming bogies over...
Jazz Leader: Sorry guys there's a delay in the mission, its HQ's fault. When we do make our attack run it'll be the best attack run ever and everyone will love it...
HQ: JL it's not our fault...
JL: I know all that matters is I come out smelling like a rose...
It's from the ks comments. In the PB or ks updates they keep mentioning how the rules an models are almost done and HG just has to approve it. In particular the PB update page. When there is an update it's usually nothing of meaning to us backers with no meaningful info. Nothing but smoke and mirrors to keep us happy. Then Forar called them on it with, you guessed it "Jazz Hands".
If you scroll up someone posted the update here. They all say the same BS. It'll be the best game ever and everyone at PB loves it so by default you will too.
Yeah, that's kinda my doing. I've been using it for a while, but a surge in usage basically stemmed from this;
Oh yay, a bonus month of updates about how super excited and close to production they are!
*jazz hands*
Also, this really should be going into a proper Kickstarter Update, in order to fully apprise Kickstarter backers about this likely delay to their Kickstarter. >.>
And now we have a bit of a time frame. An estimated 2-3 weeks to hear back from HG, eh? So early November until we hear about how they have a bunch of changes they'd like made and everyone's super sad about the extra weeks/months they'll take, but they'll also make RRT the best most funnest gamest game you've ever gamed, and they're all super excited because they know everyone is going to love the figures and the rules and oh yeah those are totally going to be laid out soon (despite being ready for layout since July) and any week now production and manufacturing is going to start and that's super exciting too!
*more jazz hands* /fin
It's meant in a mocking fashion. As though Palladium is putting on a huge show and ending it with stereotypical "jazz hands", awaiting applause.
Except all they seem to have done is walked in a circle for the last four months.
I've got the rules up to 43 pages now but that is with Force Org Charts, and Charts with game stats and info on them. In reality the rules themselves will only be around 30 pages long.
I combined the Force Orgs and Charts that I had in Power Point onto the word file to try to keep it all on one file.
I'm glad that your house rules work for you (hey, I did the same thing for Heavy Gear at my blog) but likely maybe a quarter of your 43 pages are based off of what they posted and the rest is an educated guess. I'm waiting for a beta release of the full "official" ruleset like other companies conducting new game kickstarters publish. Granted Palladium hasn't actually said they would do this nor are they particularly known for being progressive in that regard but I'm hoping the influence of Ninja/Cypher/Soda will result in that (especially if we're moving towards an almost inevitable delay). I used to post in your battle threads and still occasionally check them but there is only so much enthusiasm that I can drum up for paper counters and house rules used in the relative vacuum of official info over the past 4 months. Momentum is key to getting a game off the shelves and onto the tabletop (and thereby getting more eyeballs noticing it and getting more games off the shelves and onto the tabletop)... and the relative spinning of the tires for four months isn't helping.
I personally view the rules as a promotional/marketing tool to sell the minis (the "real" product) and frankly the little we have to go on is mediocre and incomplete. I'm anxious to see if they'll incorporate some of the feedback about potential rules issues (force orgs not allowing common figs in the skirmish mode and easily abusable yet overly complex LOS rules in particular) from the KS comments/forums/emails/facebook posts.
Interesting to hear you say that what we have is mediocre and incomplete. I have not had to fill in very many blanks and have found the rules quite sufficient and enjoyable. Most of the stats are directly translated from the RPG.
Maybe I'll break out some of my battletech minis and see if that drums up some excitement. Might even make some stats for some of the mechs. A star of clan mechs should be able to take out an entire attrition squadron all by itself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Imagine a dasher on the battlefield. 3 MDC of hits and does something like 8 MDC damage! All I need to do is figure out how to transform the stats over....
Mike1975 wrote: Interesting to hear you say that what we have is mediocre and incomplete. I have not had to fill in very many blanks and have found the rules quite sufficient and enjoyable. Most of the stats are directly translated from the RPG.
I'm only really reading about these rules 3rd hand, but that is a bit disappointing. There's been a pretty strong community concensus that the Robotech RPG stats did not represent the canon very well. The point values posted in another thread (force org charts) looked promising, as a squad of 10 basic battle pods as slightly cheaper than 4 basic veritechs. Not quite as ridiculous as the show could be, but in the right ballpark at least.
The RPG was infamous for VTs needing to blast away to down even single battlepods.
Mike1975 wrote: Interesting to hear you say that what we have is mediocre and incomplete. I have not had to fill in very many blanks and have found the rules quite sufficient and enjoyable. Most of the stats are directly translated from the RPG.
I'm only really reading about these rules 3rd hand, but that is a bit disappointing. There's been a pretty strong community concensus that the Robotech RPG stats did not represent the canon very well. The point values posted in another thread (force org charts) looked promising, as a squad of 10 basic battle pods as slightly cheaper than 4 basic veritechs. Not quite as ridiculous as the show could be, but in the right ballpark at least.
The RPG was infamous for VTs needing to blast away to down even single battlepods.
Normally I would agree BUT the 2nd edition stats pretty much doubled the damage that the veritech's gun pod would do. In Tactics it does 6 points of damage and the battlpods can only take 5. Battlpods on the other hand only do 4 and a veritech can take 14. Plus the veritechs have superior piloting which make it more likely that they will dodge enemy attacks. I've shot at a flying veritech in fighter mode with 4 battlepods and only one managed to make the strike roll and the shot was quickly dodged.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OK, so I combined the rules, tactical briefings, and force org charts into one pdf for you all. Enjoy!
The RPG was infamous for VTs needing to blast away to down even single battlepods.
Normally I would agree BUT the 2nd edition stats pretty much doubled the damage that the veritech's gun pod would do. In Tactics it does 6 points of damage and the battlpods can only take 5. Battlpods on the other hand only do 4 and a veritech can take 14. Plus the veritechs have superior piloting which make it more likely that they will dodge enemy attacks. I've shot at a flying veritech in fighter mode with 4 battlepods and only one managed to make the strike roll and the shot was quickly dodged.
That's good to hear. I had some good RPG experiences with the Robotech RPG back in the day, but it has not aged well in comparison to a lot of other games. Having to spam missiles or use large fractions of ammo to kill enemy units was a major part.
Unfortunately, they're still incorporating alot of clunky things from the RPG into a minis game (which is a different genre and should start fresh... not be a slave to another genre). Palladium sees this as an extension to the RPG (not unreasonable admittedly) but I don't think the majority of customers will use it as such. Every close combat attack type (5 or 6 different judo chop! moves for a veritech??) makes it over to the minis game despite close combat not being a likely big part of this style game (unlike 40k for instance). I can understand a model having a basic and "super" attack (power punch) as a nod to the RPG as well as maybe 1-2 more options for close combat oriented units (like the Gladiator Destroid... can't recall the macross name for it) but the veritech has more options in close combat than it does in ranged... that makes no sense to me and indicates a mismatched sense of priorities. I want the game to be a good minis wargame, not a faithful representation of the RPG on the tabletop. The Palladium RPG ruleset is widely regarded in a negative fashion outside of their insular forums so the further away the minis game gets from that the better. YMMV.
I keep it to 8 options, not all of which every unit can use just like in the game. With the addition of command points you can turn a punch into a power punch but you have to pay to do it. In a game where you have to know where and when to use that command point that could be critical. It could mean that the next time your attacked a critical unit cannot use a command point to try to dodge the attack.
Of course I rarely get into HTH in games like this. Having 6 battlepods kick a Tomahawk makes no sense when you can just blast it and do a lot more damage since you can take advantage of focused fire and accurate making your main guns more accurate and allowing you to fire your secondaries free of charge.
I suspect as I said before that this is a nod to the game being the tabletop "version" of the RPG (as indicated by the clunky name... ROBOTECH Tactics would have been 100% better IMO). That kind of stuff would have been better in an RPG supplement to the tabletop game or a separate optional chapter rather than clogging up the datacard instead with almost never used close combat options. I can see a battlepod have 1-2 close combat attacks (kick and body block) and a veritech adding one more since it has arms but that would be my limit. Stuff like gladiators or Male power armor that are known for close combat deserve one to two max more but this will primarily be a ranged game. Other stuff like inability to dodge 4+ missiles (3.. no problem! 4... no chance!) taken straight over from the rpg (and from the ORIGINAL 1980's rpg text) is another one I noticed. Most other game companies with more modern rulesets/mindsets would have an increasing difficulty instead of just a random sheer cliff. Easily abusable yet needlessly complicated LOS rules are another head scratcher. No VF-1Js ever in the skirmish version of the army building rules... those are just a few that I hope are addressed.
Honestly, I was very pleasantly surprised that they didn't go with the frankenstein mess of d20 and percentile mechanics that the rpg uses and instead opted for d6's.
I think that the originator of the rules is the one that created a D6 based system and once it was presented to Palladium, luckily it stuck. The game stats appear to be directly related to the RPG, that being said keep in mind that that is based off of the stats of only 3 unique units in a game that has many variants.
The stated idea is to be able to take RPG players and play out a game with them in tactics. How that will work out will be interesting but from what I can extrapolate from the RPG stats to what we know of Tactics we will still avoid UBER pilots for the most part. There are a few but they will hopefully be limited in use and number.
OK, I've put up all the Destroid Stat cards for Core, Support, and Specials on the attached link. I also have put there most of the Veritech Core and Support cards. I don't have cards for the Jotun, VF-1D or VF-1R done and none of the Veritech Special stat cards. I need to go back and proof read a bit, but here they are for all of you who have played a game or two at home or who are just plain interested.
I noticed on ND's FB page they give an update for some gaming tables, but no word on RRT. If they can talk about that why not RRT? I hope the silence means there working thier axes off.
I hope so... but it feels like the priorities have shifted to "internal" projects instead on both the ND and PB fronts. I certainly hope I'm wrong though but that's the gut feeling I'm getting from the almost complete silence.
edit: Looks like a weekly press release just went up. I'd post the contents but the Robotech part is pretty much a copy paste of last week's. They're still really excited and doing some last minute changes BEFORE sending it off for final approval to Harmony Gold.
I think Kevin's mistake is that he keeps referencing PB as an RPG books only company. Truth of the matter is since PB instigated the ks they went from a book company to a game company that creates miniatures and books. Albeit with a partner.
Mike thanks for the link earlier. I finished my first building. I glued some foam board to make it a little sturdier.
FYI to all, I realized I only had half the Malcontent Force Orgs done so I remedied that this weekend and uploaded the file. All of the stat cards less some units that I do not know what the stats will be are up with the exception of the Malcontents which I hope to finish this week. I've attached the rules, tactical briefings, force Orgs, and some cheat sheets all on one file.
Enjoy!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I will make a smaller, no picture file if you guys want one. I just liked my copy to look pretty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can easily print several sheets on a single page and it still comes out nice and clear. Each faction and group is color coded. So Valkyrie Squads have a grey background and destroids a brown one. Zentraedi are green and orange while the Malcontents are purple and yellow.
In case anyone is planning on going to the Detroit Fanfare this weekend (25th-27th), apparently they're going to have 100 of each Max and Miriya in metal (Miriya at Gencon was resin).
Just an FYI for those who don't peruse Palladium's weekly updates.
Cypher-xv wrote: After reading this "glowing" review about the RPG, I'm now concerned about the RRT rules. I may end up playing with mikes rules instead.
For context, keep in mind that the review you link to is for the 1s edition. I've got a bunch of books for that edition, none for the second edition that came out in the last decade. For the time, they were very cool as they had a lot of 'mecha porn' cutaway drawings, sketches of how the tech bits worked, etc. Interestingly, they avoided the tendency for a licensed product to use media from the license: the Palladium Books staff drew new images for almost everything. A game where the hardware is important could do worse than publishing books with the mechanical-style drawings and sketches of things like how magazines fit into weapons, the scale of vehicles, etc. like these books.
For context, the early RPG works were also from an earlier era of RPGs than the modern day. This was an era when D&D was still very much the model (but not the only model) for a game, and it shows. The Robotech RPG's core definitely looks liek it's a variant on the D&D core. Similar-ish attributes with a 'normal' range of around 3-18. D20 rolls used for a lot of combat rolls. "Added-on" systems like skills (percentiles), more involved combat styles (Note that for power-gamers, some styles are definitely 'better' than others) and an overall feel of trying to simulate reality in a detailed, if not particularly accurate, way.
Tons of vehicles were statted out. All the mecha of the show, as well as trunks, conventional military vehicles, and a range of stuff that was pretty much created by Palladium.
I'll post more later about why it worked at the time, and why I probably wouldn't want to run or even play it now.
While I agree that it's not fair to judge either rules or minis from the 1980's by today's standards, the old RPG is around 90% from my reading the same as the current version. I picked up the macross and shadow chronicles books as they came out and was relatively disappointed. While they have streamlined character generation somewhat with some quick roll tables IIRC, "updating" the classes apparently meant bringing back the even older palladium MOS system for skills. Skills, combat, attributes, etc all play the same and the only real discernable difference that I noticed was simply stat creep. MDC went up and weapon damage went up to keep pace with the power creep that Rifts has gone through in the intervening 10+ years the game was OOP. I know if I posted this on the Palladium forums, some crazed fanboi would argue that there are significant differences but the telling thing for me was that I could literally take my 1990 character sheet (lol, an askew photocopied sheet written in #2 pencil with mecha stats written on a second sheet of loose leaf) and play the character almost exactly as written with the new rules (with the exception of a few skills that changed names). Because of scale creep, the character and his mech would be underpowered but simply doubling the weapon damage and MDC and adding 2 attacks to the base combat statline brought him up to par. Feel free to judge the current Robotech RPG by modern standards as it was released recently, despite rehashing almost all of the old rules with only minor tweaks.
If you follow or play rifts, the game mechanics changes are pretty much on par with original rifts to the "ultimate edition" or a bit less than D&D 3rd edition to 3.5. If you were expecting a "new" RPG, you'll be disappointed by what you find (except for doubled to tripled stats like damage/MDC).
I made detailed, full-page mecha sheets for nearly every Robotech mecha design in a long-obsolete all-in-in-one 'Works' package. I don't want to think how many hours I spent on those.
Anyway, back in the late 80s, early 90s, it was certainly a playable game... I was used to games like D&D that were often played as pretty basic hack & slash, and I don't think I was ready for games that could be very crunchy like Shadowrun or games requiring a lot more storytelling skills like Call of Cthulhu. The Robotech RPG had enough in common with D&D that it made sense to us in that era. It was a great way to get into more story-focused games, as we had the show (which I didn't see much of, to be honest) and the setting in the books as a guide.
(I remember one of my favorite was running a single-player and GM game for a friend where some dimension hopping happened, including a very dark, depressing version of the Robotech setting where Max was some sort of supreme-commander type sitting in a still-functional but crappy SDF-1 keeping Earth safe at a high cost to himself. Weird stuff, Don't remember details.)
I'm not really a big fan of the system anymore, though. Palladium's rules often make some odd choices and combine a lot of firm mechanical details (Very specific combat maneuvers, very granular bonuses, etc.) with some stuff that needs to be run in a looser 'story' mode to make sense. (I believe from the original Robotech RPG book you could end up with a Veritech Pilot, a Destroid Pilot, a Micronized Zentraedi, and a Repair Tech. There was nothing in the rules to make these all 'make sense' or even compete on the same field mechanically, or even mark some (the repair tech) as 'Best for NPCs' but they had to exist because they existed int he show. Your repair tech had no real combat skills (maybe basic weapon training) and I believe was explicitly called out as being disallowed from taking mecha combat training , so was basically useful baggage in a fight with the iconic mecha of the show. Even getting rid of that outlier, the Destroid Pilot tended to be in a slow, clunky, ground-based walker that was much more limited than the Veritech pilot.
Anyway, if I was designing a new Robotech RPG I think I'd want to focus (at least for a core book) on Veritech pilots. Think how the 40kRPGs center around one aspect of a huge setting).
One flaw with Palladium's system was there was one Class for VT Pilot, so all the pilots could be a bit too similar. Ideally, I'd want several 'pilot' archetypes to build classes around. From the canon:
Rick Hunter is more of a 'fighter' pilot (stunt planes, technically). Maybe a 'Fighter Jock' class that gets bonuses in aircraft mode?
Max Sterling is more an all-arounder. He's also got an OMG! HAX! ridiculous high dexterity. Maybe give him 'VT Ace' that is balanced.
This leaves some design space for a 'Walker Specialist' (Best in Battloid form, and is probably the pilot who you want driving if the group grabs a Destroid in an emergency) and maybe a Gerwalk/Guardian Specialist class, although the latter may be stretching things a bit.
That's just a handful of classes based around fighitng styles, but there's a couple other support roles that could fit in. Maybe a "VT Trainer" that is meant to be an instructor reassigned or forced into a combat role, and gets some special skills to motivate others. (Think the D&D Warlord.) Or maybe a dedicated '2nd seat' if there's any two-seat VTs in canon (It's been too long. I can't remember.).
Anyway, my point is that I feel the old RPG (and apparently the new) focused heavily on simulating the setting without a clear look at making the interesting bits fun and varied. It's kind fo why most Star Wars RPGs i've seen try to make Jedi interesting by having multiple Jedi classes or archetypes. Star Wars is also a good example as the various RPGs have also spent a lot of time making the Scoundrels and other non-Jedi interesting to play with a role in the game beyond side-kick.
After perusing the PB and seeing that a civil discussion to bring about change will only lead to flame war I was both turned off and disgusted by the hostility encountered there. I'm grateful for the fact that here it's possible to have an intelligent and constructive discussion. Thank you dakka.
As a fan of Mr. Watson's work on the 40k line of RPGs, I have to say its refreshing to see honesty of this sort coming from a highly respected industry professional.
A conversation was started over at RGC for those who may be interested. We are discussing character traits for the game. Kinda tongue in cheek but I'm adding these to my rules write up. Go there and give your 2 cents or say something here. Here is a summary of the traits we've come up with so far.
1. Aware (5 Points) Unit may attempt to dodge inescapable weapons
2. Backstabber (5 Points) Unit generates 3 command points for every friendly unit with Life is Cheap that he/she destroys.
5. Brutal (5 Points) Units with this trait will add +1 MDC of damage to all weapons that do less than 5 points of damage and will add 2 points of damage to all weapons that do 5 or more damage. These pilots are considered insane by many others and remove the safeties from their weapons. Every time units with the Brutal trait fire and roll an unmodified natural 1 on the strike roll, re-roll the die. If the result is another 1 the weapons system is destroyed and the unit takes one MDC of damage.
6. Claustrophobic (-5 Points) (Campaign only) Players with this trait suffer a -1 to Pil and Gun while they have more than 3 allies within 3 inches of themselves.
7. Crack Shot (5 Points) Units hits by a unit with the Crack Shot trait cannot be protected or shielded by other units allowing the units to split the damage. Units with shields suffer a -1 penalty to their parry rolls.
8. Deadeye (5 points) Increase all weapons ranges by 25% (rounding down)
9. Flashbacks (-5 Points) (Campaign Only) When confronted with an enemy that has shot them down in a previous encounter this unit suffers a -1 to PIL and -1 to all anti-missile rolls while that enemy is within 12 inches of them. When they move outside of the 12 inches or the enemy is destroyed the restrictions are lifted.
10. Lucky (5 Points) Units may roll for free against any attack. When hit roll a D6, on a 4+ the player automatically takes 1/2 damage as if the unit had rolled, this also works on overwhelming attacks.
11. Master of Confusion (10 Points) One enemy faction/player suffers a -1 penalty to his initiative rolls.
12. Melee Specialist (5 Points) Special Melee attacks do not require command points and all melee attacks do +1 MDC damage.
13. Missile Expert (10 Points) +1 Strike with missiles and -1 to Anti-Missiles rolls for targets.
14. Natural Commander (Roy): Pilots with this trait get an additional +1 to both PIL and GUN just like pilots with the Natural trait would but they also have an additional 2 Leadership points. They also add +1 to the initiative roll for their side. This is not cumulative with other character bonuses that add to the initiative roll.
15. Natural (5 Points) Pilots with this trait get a +1 to both PIL and GUN skills. All other abilities remain unchanged.
17. Nemesis (Free) Pilots in a battle with "their" Nemesis gain +2 MDC Damage against all targets between (blocking) their path to their Nemesis, and must advance each turn at least 3 inches towards their Nemesis (if physically possible) until within 12 inches. Once within 12 inches the Nemesis become targets of each other and cannot target any other enemy units until their Nemesis is destroyed.
18. Overconfident (-5 Points) Must always advance towards any enemy unit by at least 4 inches (if physically able) on each turn.
19. Protector (5 Points) May shield other units without paying command points and also may attempt to shield if the unit has one free of charge and with a +1 parry bonus.
20. Push the Limit (5 points) Units with this trait may increase their movement by 50% once every 3 turns
21. Quick (5 Points) +1 to all Dodge Rolls (May be combined with the same trait on a mecha
22. Sixth Sense (15 Points) Does not pay command Points to Dodge, May pay command point to allow attempt to dodge weapons with the inescapable trait.
23. Sneaky (5 Points) Targets suffer -1 to their dodge rolls
Palladium games (specifically Robotech) are what got me into roleplaying and tabletop gaming in general so they'll always hold a special nostalgic place for me... but pretty much everything has changed in the almost 25 years since except for the mechanics of the game. When it came out, clunky cobbled together RPG mechanics were pretty much the norm (see D&D 2nd ed for a prime example) but the story line by Kevin S and excellent line art by Kevin Long made palladium games stand out. Unfortunately, the world has moved onto full color digitally laid out game books with cohesive mechanics and palladium is still treading water in almost exactly the same place they were when D&D 2nd edition was new... 2 column rules arranged however the copy/paste fits with the same style B&W line art and book covers whole laminate peels even with simple storage and no use.
The announcement that palladium was bringing the rules in house from Ninja Division raised alot of concern for me (can't provide a link with how disjointed and haphazard the little information given has leaked out since the KS). I was frankly impressed that the minis game did *NOT* use the d20/percentile frankenstein mess of a megaversal system even if I saw alot of the other pet peeves of mine from the RPG creep in. I hope that the relative silence on the rules doesn't mean that it's getting closer to the RPG...
If they stray too far I can add in the RPG bits that I have written up and balance things out again. The conversion system that I have appears to work very well. I just need to tweak the invid a bit.
As a fan of Mr. Watson's work on the 40k line of RPGs, I have to say its refreshing to see honesty of this sort coming from a highly respected industry professional.
Yeah, that update and its later naming and shaming of some of the hardcore fans who dared speak up in the next one caused more than a few locked threads. I usually only used to check the site every few weeks and that one got me to log in for the first time in months to express my dissatisfaction. It was actually 99% of fans quoted as happy and he arrived at that highly exact number by secretly polling attendees at the palladium open house mini-convention they hold... I'm not kidding. He arrived at that exact percentage and based his premise on chatting with fans at their in-house convention by discreetly dancing around the subject without them knowing. Enough people who actually attended the convention piped up in the various threads and said they were absolutely NOT asked for their opinion and had plenty of suggested changes they would have expressed that the 1% number (even when the general terms "fan" and "customer" are limited to the highly distilled number of gamers who actually trek across the country to attend the event) was complete BS. Bascially, if the owner of the company whose convention you were attending saw you and asked how you were doing and you said "Fine", you were counted as a satisfied customer who wanted no changes.
warboss wrote: Palladium games (specifically Robotech) are what got me into roleplaying and tabletop gaming in general so they'll always hold a special nostalgic place for me... but pretty much everything has changed in the almost 25 years since except for the mechanics of the game. When it came out, clunky cobbled together RPG mechanics were pretty much the norm (see D&D 2nd ed for a prime example) but the story line by Kevin S and excellent line art by Kevin Long made palladium games stand out. Unfortunately, the world has moved onto full color digitally laid out game books with cohesive mechanics and palladium is still treading water in almost exactly the same place they were when D&D 2nd edition was new... 2 column rules arranged however the copy/paste fits with the same style B&W line art and book covers whole laminate peels even with simple storage and no use.
I agree with this completely. Just wanted to point out that taken in context, the Robotech RPG was wicked cool in 198X.
The announcement that palladium was bringing the rules in house from Ninja Division raised alot of concern for me (can't provide a link with how disjointed and haphazard the little information given has leaked out since the KS). I was frankly impressed that the minis game did *NOT* use the d20/percentile frankenstein mess of a megaversal system even if I saw alot of the other pet peeves of mine from the RPG creep in. I hope that the relative silence on the rules doesn't mean that it's getting closer to the RPG...
I've seen a few RPG writers sever relationships with Palladium over similar concerns. Writing a book, then having it re-written.
I figured it must have been something like that. It's this type of attitude that's keeping PB from taking a larger chunk of the RPG market. Imagine if their RPGs were on par with the 40k ones. I might even drop 40k entirely for macross.
I can only imagine the bloodbath that would take place if someone linked either one of those links on the PB forums or the ks comments section.
I agree with this completely. Just wanted to point out that taken in context, the Robotech RPG was wicked cool in 198X.
I'd even go to say that it was wicked cool in the 90's as well even though the mechanics were starting to show their age. It was dissatisfaction with the cobbled together mess of Robotech and Rifts that got me looking for game systems that were built from the ground up to do what they were to be used for and not tacking on extra stuff to an early 1980's D&D clone to make it scifi/cyberpunk/anime. Shadowrun and Heavy Gear were the two systems that weaned me off of Palladium's games.
My crew and I played Rifts for over half a decade back in the 90's, and while the setting was cool as hell (and I still have around two dozen Rifts, Nightbane, HU and Robotech books on my shelf after selling off the vast majority of my collection), the system certainly had holes and cracking points that needed shoring up.
Forar wrote: My crew and I played Rifts for over half a decade back in the 90's, and while the setting was cool as hell (and I still have around two dozen Rifts, Nightbane, HU and Robotech books on my shelf after selling off the vast majority of my collection), the system certainly had holes and cracking points that needed shoring up.
Welcome to the 1%. There is no going back. As Mr. Watson pointed out, you are no longer considered a fan nor a customer according to the heart, soul, mouth, and other end of the digestive tract of Palladium BooksTM.
Y'know, I don't expect everyone to embrace the scientific method, but it shouldn't take more than a glance at some wiki pages on statistics to know that 'casual chatter' with hundreds of self-selected fans and friends (ie: people who are very, very unlikely to give unbiased critique) isn't the best idea if you want to sincerely know what people want. And not just fans, ideally one should make efforts to expand their brand; new fans are a source of potentially dozens or hundreds of sales over the years. An existing fan is probably good for the new releases of things they already like, which may or may not be the entire line.
The link in the posts mentioned above is broken, but here's the correct one;
I have spent the last six weeks doing a lot of market research. It started at the Palladium Open House and intensified the last two weeks. My calls to Ultimate Insiders, Insider Benefactors and freelancers/friends contributed to it. The reason for the research was that a number of potential “new opportunities” have presented themselves to us, including doing miniatures for Robotech®, among other things. My thanks to the Benefactors, Insiders and others who have knowingly and unknowingly contributed to this vital research.
Surveying a few hundred Palladium customers revealed several important things.
Satisfaction is through the roof.
Most of you love the game rules.
Most of you are loving the new book releases.
Most of you want MORE. More for Rifts®. More for EVERYTHING. And the sooner the better.
Favorite recent release: Rifts® Lemuria.
Most anticipated upcoming release: Rifts® Northern Gun™ with Beyond the Supernatural™, Splicers® and Palladium Fantasy RPG® sourcebooks all clustered and fighting for the Number Two slot. I was surprised that these game lines had that much interest.
Favorite Palladium game line: Rifts®, with Heroes Unlimited™, Dead Reign™ and Palladium Fantasy RPG® fighting for second and third place and the rest of our world settings all coming in behind them.
When asked, what would you like to see Palladium do differently, change or improve?
A whopping 90% of you said, “Don’t change a thing. Keep doing what you are doing. Just, please, keep new product coming out at a steady pace.”
“We want more, and we want it now,” was a common, unsolicited sentiment. Along those lines, many expressed excitement for the promise of new material for Palladium Fantasy®, Splicers®, Beyond the Supernatural™, Nightbane®, Heroes Unlimited™ and Robotech®, pretty much in that order.
Of the remaining 10%, most wanted a few minor changes and tweaks, nothing major, and were very satisfied with Palladium and our products, overall.
Fun Facts Revealed
Of the customers/fans surveyed (90% of whom did not realize I was gathering information – I wanted their unbiased opinions), we learned what most of YOU probably already knew:
86% are dying to see a darn movie made. If not a Rifts® movie, they’d like to see Nightbane®, Splicers®, Dead Reign™, Beyond the Supernatural™, Phase World®, Palladium Fantasy®, Mechanoids® or Heroes Unlimited™, pretty much in that order.
78% want character generators for all Palladium games.
75% want video games of any variety based on Rifts® or any Palladium game setting.
75% are “excited” about the new Megaverse® Insider offer for the two Northern Gun™ books, and anxious for the new Insider offer to start. (FYI: It starts today!) Most said they were planning to make an Insider purchase for Northern Gun™ and would participate in future crowdfunding. 25% thought Palladium should do them more often. Only 2% thought it was too soon to do another already. (Four months after the first!?) But most also planned to make a purchase from the new crowdfunding offer for Northern Gun™ One and Two. 90% thought crowdfunding was a smart move. Note: The level of customer excitement and participation over the Megaverse® Insider offers (especially among those who made a purchase in the first offer) really surprised me. In fact, 30% thought we offered too much or an impressive value for what they paid; 68% thought it was perfect.
98% were completely satisfied with the Lemuria Megaverse Insider offer. Note: I was so glad to hear it. I always want to release products and special offers that please as many people as possible.
55% would like toys/action figures. Note: But not necessarily metal or plastic miniatures, which surprised me.
42% would like to see more hardcover editions of Palladium game titles, including sourcebooks. Note: This surprised me as well.
40% would like more novels based on Palladium game settings, especially for Rifts®.
33% would like more comic books based on Palladium game settings.
33% were “interested” in seeing an optional set of simplified rules, provided it kept the terms and feel of the current game system and they could use existing sourcebooks with it.
24% want to see more PDFs, but most said they also wanted to see printed books along with them. Many of these people were also interested in seeing Palladium titles made available in other e-reader formats.
20% want to see more miniatures and/or a miniature game for Rifts® or other Palladium settings. The number increases to 30% among Robotech® fans. Note: This comparatively low number surprised me, as several people have been pitching and hyping miniatures.
7% did not play (for various reasons; no time, no players in the area, etc.), but enjoyed reading and collecting the books for the “story” and “ideas.”
Fewer than 1% were dissatisfied with the Palladium game system. Most of those used Palladium world settings but the rules of another game or a combination of rules from two or more game publishers plus house rules. Despite this, all continued to enjoy and buy Palladium RPG titles to read for the “ideas” and “game setting.”
What all this tells us
This information tells us Palladium’s agenda to produce a lot of new, dynamic product is exactly what YOU – our customers – want. Everything else is secondary.
It also made something else very, very clear: a) That many of Palladium’s relentless critics are, not customers (i.e. they do not buy or play our games in the first place); b) some are outsiders who have never actually played our games and point out what they think they see as weaknesses and problems (i.e. comments like, “the game system is broken”); c) some have different tastes and prefer other styles of role-playing rules (resulting in comments like, “the world settings are great, but the rules suck,” or “I wish Palladium would change their rules to be more like Game X”); and d) some are dissatisfied with our product, me or the company. That’s okay. One of the things I love about role-playing games is that they are so flexible and can be altered to fit your personal inclinations and style of play. I learned long ago that you cannot please everyone, so I am delighted to see that not only are we satisfying the overwhelming majority of Palladium customers, but that most of you are delighted with the end product and wouldn’t change a thing.
As a result of this market study, I will be focusing on giving YOU what you want: More product. More product for all our game lines, and as quickly as we can without sacrificing quality!
It’s ironic, but that was my plan from the start of this year. Now, I feel like an idiot having wasted so much time the past several weeks on exploring the development of new product areas, when I should have been cranking out the RPG books we already have in the pipeline. I think it is human nature to doubt and second-guess yourself, especially when you’re being lobbied by outside forces to consider new things that sound promising. I have always made it a policy to listen to our customers and consider what they have to say. Regrettably, that means sometimes you get drawn off target. We’ll probably explore some of those new opportunities in the future, as I am always looking at new ideas and new technology. But right now, I have only two goals:
Release new RPG sourcebooks across all game lines.
Get new gamers to discover the magic of Palladium Books. We’ll do this via advertising, promotion, Megaversal Ambassadors, and grass roots word of mouth. The latter starts with Palladium by creating product with buzz, followed by you helping to spread the word.
Top Four Wants
More new product (without sacrificing quality).
Better support of all product lines on a regular basis, but without ignoring Rifts®. Rifts® remains the evergreen favorite.
For Palladium to get strong so you can stop worrying about us. Nice. Thank you.
Somebody make the darn Rifts® movie or a film or TV show based on one of Palladium’s game settings.
Seriously. Those were the four things I heard over and over again. And most of the time they were couched as suggestions or wishes, not complaints or criticisms. I thought it was all positive, useful and helpful.
All of this data and the start of the new Megaverse® Insider crowdsource funding is plenty to chew on for this week’s Update, so I’m not going to say much more.
Like... really? "Hey fans, do you want more stuff you're fans of?"
OK, so I've uploaded the updates rules with Characters in it. Yes, I know we don't know what the PB/ND guys will have but it'll fill in the blanks until we get our rulebooks some 3+ months down the road. I also added the Physical attack information to all of the Stat Cards and added the Qeul-Gulnau, I also updated the Glaug stats with a Spawn trait.
Forar wrote: Y'know, I don't expect everyone to embrace the scientific method, but it shouldn't take more than a glance at some wiki pages on statistics to know that 'casual chatter' with hundreds of self-selected fans and friends (ie: people who are very, very unlikely to give unbiased critique) isn't the best idea if you want to sincerely know what people want. And not just fans, ideally one should make efforts to expand their brand; new fans are a source of potentially dozens or hundreds of sales over the years. An existing fan is probably good for the new releases of things they already like, which may or may not be the entire line.
The link in the posts mentioned above is broken, but here's the correct one;
I have spent the last six weeks doing a lot of market research. It started at the Palladium Open House and intensified the last two weeks. My calls to Ultimate Insiders, Insider Benefactors and freelancers/friends contributed to it. The reason for the research was that a number of potential “new opportunities” have presented themselves to us, including doing miniatures for Robotech®, among other things. My thanks to the Benefactors, Insiders and others who have knowingly and unknowingly contributed to this vital research.
Surveying a few hundred Palladium customers revealed several important things.
Satisfaction is through the roof.
Most of you love the game rules.
Most of you are loving the new book releases.
Most of you want MORE. More for Rifts®. More for EVERYTHING. And the sooner the better.
Favorite recent release: Rifts® Lemuria.
Most anticipated upcoming release: Rifts® Northern Gun™ with Beyond the Supernatural™, Splicers® and Palladium Fantasy RPG® sourcebooks all clustered and fighting for the Number Two slot. I was surprised that these game lines had that much interest.
Favorite Palladium game line: Rifts®, with Heroes Unlimited™, Dead Reign™ and Palladium Fantasy RPG® fighting for second and third place and the rest of our world settings all coming in behind them.
When asked, what would you like to see Palladium do differently, change or improve?
A whopping 90% of you said, “Don’t change a thing. Keep doing what you are doing. Just, please, keep new product coming out at a steady pace.”
“We want more, and we want it now,” was a common, unsolicited sentiment. Along those lines, many expressed excitement for the promise of new material for Palladium Fantasy®, Splicers®, Beyond the Supernatural™, Nightbane®, Heroes Unlimited™ and Robotech®, pretty much in that order.
Of the remaining 10%, most wanted a few minor changes and tweaks, nothing major, and were very satisfied with Palladium and our products, overall.
Fun Facts Revealed
Of the customers/fans surveyed (90% of whom did not realize I was gathering information – I wanted their unbiased opinions), we learned what most of YOU probably already knew:
86% are dying to see a darn movie made. If not a Rifts® movie, they’d like to see Nightbane®, Splicers®, Dead Reign™, Beyond the Supernatural™, Phase World®, Palladium Fantasy®, Mechanoids® or Heroes Unlimited™, pretty much in that order.
78% want character generators for all Palladium games.
75% want video games of any variety based on Rifts® or any Palladium game setting.
75% are “excited” about the new Megaverse® Insider offer for the two Northern Gun™ books, and anxious for the new Insider offer to start. (FYI: It starts today!) Most said they were planning to make an Insider purchase for Northern Gun™ and would participate in future crowdfunding. 25% thought Palladium should do them more often. Only 2% thought it was too soon to do another already. (Four months after the first!?) But most also planned to make a purchase from the new crowdfunding offer for Northern Gun™ One and Two. 90% thought crowdfunding was a smart move. Note: The level of customer excitement and participation over the Megaverse® Insider offers (especially among those who made a purchase in the first offer) really surprised me. In fact, 30% thought we offered too much or an impressive value for what they paid; 68% thought it was perfect.
98% were completely satisfied with the Lemuria Megaverse Insider offer. Note: I was so glad to hear it. I always want to release products and special offers that please as many people as possible.
55% would like toys/action figures. Note: But not necessarily metal or plastic miniatures, which surprised me.
42% would like to see more hardcover editions of Palladium game titles, including sourcebooks. Note: This surprised me as well.
40% would like more novels based on Palladium game settings, especially for Rifts®.
33% would like more comic books based on Palladium game settings.
33% were “interested” in seeing an optional set of simplified rules, provided it kept the terms and feel of the current game system and they could use existing sourcebooks with it.
24% want to see more PDFs, but most said they also wanted to see printed books along with them. Many of these people were also interested in seeing Palladium titles made available in other e-reader formats.
20% want to see more miniatures and/or a miniature game for Rifts® or other Palladium settings. The number increases to 30% among Robotech® fans. Note: This comparatively low number surprised me, as several people have been pitching and hyping miniatures.
7% did not play (for various reasons; no time, no players in the area, etc.), but enjoyed reading and collecting the books for the “story” and “ideas.”
Fewer than 1% were dissatisfied with the Palladium game system. Most of those used Palladium world settings but the rules of another game or a combination of rules from two or more game publishers plus house rules. Despite this, all continued to enjoy and buy Palladium RPG titles to read for the “ideas” and “game setting.”
What all this tells us
This information tells us Palladium’s agenda to produce a lot of new, dynamic product is exactly what YOU – our customers – want. Everything else is secondary.
It also made something else very, very clear: a) That many of Palladium’s relentless critics are, not customers (i.e. they do not buy or play our games in the first place); b) some are outsiders who have never actually played our games and point out what they think they see as weaknesses and problems (i.e. comments like, “the game system is broken”); c) some have different tastes and prefer other styles of role-playing rules (resulting in comments like, “the world settings are great, but the rules suck,” or “I wish Palladium would change their rules to be more like Game X”); and d) some are dissatisfied with our product, me or the company. That’s okay. One of the things I love about role-playing games is that they are so flexible and can be altered to fit your personal inclinations and style of play. I learned long ago that you cannot please everyone, so I am delighted to see that not only are we satisfying the overwhelming majority of Palladium customers, but that most of you are delighted with the end product and wouldn’t change a thing.
As a result of this market study, I will be focusing on giving YOU what you want: More product. More product for all our game lines, and as quickly as we can without sacrificing quality!
It’s ironic, but that was my plan from the start of this year. Now, I feel like an idiot having wasted so much time the past several weeks on exploring the development of new product areas, when I should have been cranking out the RPG books we already have in the pipeline. I think it is human nature to doubt and second-guess yourself, especially when you’re being lobbied by outside forces to consider new things that sound promising. I have always made it a policy to listen to our customers and consider what they have to say. Regrettably, that means sometimes you get drawn off target. We’ll probably explore some of those new opportunities in the future, as I am always looking at new ideas and new technology. But right now, I have only two goals:
Release new RPG sourcebooks across all game lines.
Get new gamers to discover the magic of Palladium Books. We’ll do this via advertising, promotion, Megaversal Ambassadors, and grass roots word of mouth. The latter starts with Palladium by creating product with buzz, followed by you helping to spread the word.
Top Four Wants
More new product (without sacrificing quality).
Better support of all product lines on a regular basis, but without ignoring Rifts®. Rifts® remains the evergreen favorite.
For Palladium to get strong so you can stop worrying about us. Nice. Thank you.
Somebody make the darn Rifts® movie or a film or TV show based on one of Palladium’s game settings.
Seriously. Those were the four things I heard over and over again. And most of the time they were couched as suggestions or wishes, not complaints or criticisms. I thought it was all positive, useful and helpful.
All of this data and the start of the new Megaverse® Insider crowdsource funding is plenty to chew on for this week’s Update, so I’m not going to say much more.
Like... really? "Hey fans, do you want more stuff you're fans of?"
Fans: "YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!"
"Whelp, we're good, job's done."
O.o
Seems to work for me. Thank you for finding the original update. From the comments section on the blog, one of the posters said he was at the PB open house and that they weren't asked directly about changing or improving anything. If anything it seems more like a case of you listen only to what you want to hear. Welcome to the 1%.
Cypher-xv wrote: Seems to work for me. Thank you for finding the original update. From the comments section on the blog, one of the posters said he was at the PB open house and that they weren't asked directly about changing or improving anything. If anything it seems more like a case of you listen only to what you want to hear. Welcome to the 1%.
Indeed. It's odd because every time Palladium games are brought up anywhere I look on the internet, the general consensus is that they're mechanically flawed and the majority of people commenting are ex-players who say they'd like to come back into the fold. Eh... I see Robotech: Macross as the last attempt for Palladium to fix that perception. Macross is by far my favorite era to play and if the rules for the minis game aren't to my liking I really doubt I'll buy into any other eras (especially as Sentinels was my second favorite... although I still played Macross veritechs in it).
•Fewer than 1% were dissatisfied with the Palladium game system. Most of those used Palladium world settings but the rules of another game or a combination of rules from two or more game publishers plus house rules. Despite this, all continued to enjoy and buy Palladium RPG titles to read for the “ideas” and “game setting.”
If not for this ks I would never have know about all this controversy over the game system. Next to the robo books were the other PB books. After looking thru them I decided not to buy them because 1: I only like macross, 2: the other PB books looked dated. An this was in the early 90's.
I agree with Ross, the mugging example seems silly even back in my junior high school days. Same thing with the use of drugs. I remember thinking wtf. This has nothing to do with macrosss.
Ok everyone, yes I know the rules are rumored to be at the gencon and "nearly complete", Jazz Hands. I hope that that is the case but just in case I've spent a bit of time adding a few things to my rules and making them look spiffy. I've added characters and character trait costs so that you can add your own characters to the game. If you can think of any other traits to add post them here or at RGC.
I've also added HTH Base Damage to the stat cards and what HTH attacks the unit is allowed to make, such as a Regult not being able to punch or a Spartan not being able to jump kick someone.
I also updated a few of the unit traits in preparation of doing all the Southern Cross and Invid Invasion and also Sentinels stuff. I also added the Quel-Gulnau to the list and created a new trait for it and the Glaug, Spawning and Spawn Assist. This allows unit that are near a Glaug that have the Life is Cheap trait to have a chance to be "resurrected" when destroyed.
So what is left? I still need Jotun and YF-4 Stats. I also need to create stats for the upgraded power armor for both FPA and MPA.
For the other wars I need to refine the Invid stats. Southern Cross Veritech Mecha and Masters Bioroids are done I also need to figure out For Org Charts for each faction. One I have force orgs I can playtest some and come up with the point costs of the other units.
So what I need help with is coming up with what I'm missing or suggestions for rules additions or changes. Playtesting. Many may want to wait till the "official rules" come out. No problem.
Wow. I used to know one of the other guys mentioned in those forum posts (and who also posts in the thread, on second glance).
Wooooooow. A lot of things were always joked about or assumed, it's interesting to have it all lain bare for the world to see.
Huh. Sadly, seems a lot of this went down/came to light around 2003, which was probably a year or two after my crew had parted company with Rifts and moved onto D&D 3E and later 4E.
The way I interpret the trait is that the total move is indeed 10 inches within which you can LEAP a maximum of five inches up and over something. So 5 inches up or 5 inches a straight line. I'll add a pic and explanation to the rules tonight.
All I want to see is HG approved everything and that everything is at the manufacturing stage, along with a preview of plastic minis. Not resin or pewter.
We apologize for it taking quite so long for this update but we are working hard and we are deciding upon Final Final Final approval of Kevin's business practices and then promptly say that the issues is nearly finally decided except for a few fanboys. Once those fanboys decide how they will vote the Final Final Final Final approvals will be completed and a letter of intent sent to Palladium.
I'll give PB the benefit of the doubt until this goes into March. Then I can imagine what the comments section and PB forums will explode in condemnation.
Okay, I'm 1000 posts into this clusterfrak of a thread on rpg.net about Palladium, and wow, woooooow. Every time I think it's done, either someone necro's it, a new detail emerges, or someone else tied to Palladium drags it down a little.
Kinda wish I'd known about this before the KS campaign was done. I mean, as a fan from back in the 90's until the early 2000's, I wasn't completely blind, but some of the chatter from former writers/freelancers have really clarified some things I was always unclear of. Interesting to see the curtain peeled back... even if what is behind the curtain isn't exactly pleasant.
Yeah, there is more than just a single reason that Palladium threads end up quite negative. Outdated rules and layout is just the obvious tip of the iceberg...
Bill Coffin had some damning things to say, but later recants to a degree with an open apology. Good on him for getting it off his chest and moving on, but he and his wife describe being treated pretty terribly through that thread. Same with Steve Trustrum, whom I beta tested some HU Rifter material with back in the early 2000's.
Also there were some really choice bits of sarcasm mocking the palladium copy/paste releases. From 2003-2007.
The more things change...
Oh, and:
warboss wrote: And forar is now a bridge bunny! Welcome to the ops center.
Now I'm surrounded by a surly captain and a bevy of lovely ladies.
The skirt itches a little, but I'm kind of proud of how it shows off these legs. At 6'3 or so, there's a whole lot to show, if you catch my drift. I think you do....
I hear ya. I kinda feel the same. I just made a long post on the HGFB and I guess it was to long or they don't take kindly to asking for a rush on approvals. I don't see my post there. All I asked was if they would speak to Kev about better quality updates.
One thing that bugs me about this PBbs, is that they send CnD orders for made up rules. I mean look at all the 40k fan sites with their alternate rules. Imagine if we couldn't have are ItEN or other sites for alternate ways of playing GW games. It would suck. I hope when the TT crowd starts messing with the rules, there won't be silly stories about site after site getting shut down. I don't think that would go well here.
I tried looking up stuff for the robo RPG and at first I thought I was having tech problems with the page loading and then I realized the 4 options available were it. Wonder what's going to happen now that the TT crowd is involved with PB. After all we'er a loud bunch.lol
I tried looking up stuff for the robo RPG and at first I thought I was having tech problems with the page loading and then I realized the 4 options available were it. Wonder what's going to happen now that the TT crowd is involved with PB. After all we'er a loud bunch.lol
I've heard comments that Kevin Siembada pretty much says that when he runs a game, he ignores most of the rule (for his own game, that he published and often wrote) which is annoying but workable-ish for an RPG, but not really how a tabletop needs to run.
Yeah, I've heard that too, including reports from the Fanfare folks who just played this past weekend.
Sort of torn on stuff like that. Yes, a good GM sometimes has to bend the rules (especially during a convention one-off campaign with 8 players, where keeping the pace up is more important than 100% rules accuracy), but on the other hand he's the primary author and He Whom All Rules And Books Must Go Before, so if there are rules that he's regularly tweaking or ignoring for the sake of pacing or fun... he's kind of in the perfect place to do something about it.
I'm not sure if I've lamented this here (or if it's been a while), but I'm kind of appalled by communities that are so insular and resistant to critique that they curry such a cult-like following. Giving and receiving constructive criticism are good skills to have, and as a business it shouldn't be seen as a slight to simply suggest that it might be possible to revise things to be better. I mean, I give critique of things I love all the time; it shouldn't be that difficult to separate the "OMG SQUEEEEEEE!" fanboy/fangirl within from the rational "but while I'm squee'ing, there are a few things that I think could do with another round of revision..." side.
Yeah, this weekend I made my weekly foray into the official palladium boards and found some interesting comments. One guy apparently was comparing the palladium RPG to famous works of art and proclaiming that Paizo should beg palladium to use their system and two others (who apparently volunteer/work for palladium) were proclaiming that Kevin S's ignoring of his own rules for the sake of game pacing somehow proves the superiority of the system. Major house ruling on the fly for the sake of game pacing (as long as it is done WITH the agreement of most players) is the mark of a good GM and has no reflection on the quality of the rules system.
Anyone can take any RPG out there and simply ignore things... ignoring what is written doesn't prove anything about what is written. You can run an RPG game with rock paper scissors and replace scissors with DODGEBALL! but that doesn't mean it's a good RPG system even if the players have fun during a one off session. It's the mark of a good system when you can play it RAW and it both mechanically works and you have a good time.
If I wanted to be really snarky, I'd take all these reports of Kevin ignoring rules for the sake of pacing/expediency and say that apparently he agrees that the system is garbage but the setting is awesome.
There are a couple of folks on those forums who simply *loathe* that stance whenever it shows up.
Hrm, might have to be my opening volley if things start to slide really badly and the apologists come out in full force.
If ignores his own rules I'm not surprised he ignores the community at large. All this shows is that he's being hypocritical. The system can't handle apperantly certain situations. What does he do ignore his own rules. Does anyone know if the FFG crew do this all the time? I doubt it happens as much as it does in games using the PB system.
I noticed similar comments about the art. Honestly I don't see the big deal. Much of it has a Saturday morning cartoon look to it. At least kawamorri and crew illustrate the valks in a more realistic looking fashion. That's all personal preference tho.
Just like Forar I noticed the fanboiesm of the PB crowd. On their forums and the ks comments section. Apperantly PB can do no wrong. At least next time the PB apologist jump on Forar or anyone else for calling a spade a spade at least we can show that it's not all unicorns and rainbows with those links. Try linking those links at the PB forums.lol
I think the way PB treats freelancers is terrible. Aren't the ND freelancing for PB?
Sort of torn on stuff like that. Yes, a good GM sometimes has to bend the rules (especially during a convention one-off campaign with 8 players, where keeping the pace up is more important than 100% rules accuracy), but on the other hand he's the primary author and He Whom All Rules And Books Must Go Before, so if there are rules that he's regularly tweaking or ignoring for the sake of pacing or fun... he's kind of in the perfect place to do something about it.
My personal rule when GMing is to keep any book look-ups to a minimum.
OTOH a big complaint when a player is I don't like it when my character is made to do X, the GM is aware that I'm good at X, and I find out that X is now Y and I'm totally useless. Not fun.
I'm not sure if I've lamented this here (or if it's been a while), but I'm kind of appalled by communities that are so insular and resistant to critique that they curry such a cult-like following. Giving and receiving constructive criticism are good skills to have, and as a business it shouldn't be seen as a slight to simply suggest that it might be possible to revise things to be better. I mean, I give critique of things I love all the time; it shouldn't be that difficult to separate the "OMG SQUEEEEEEE!" fanboy/fangirl within from the rational "but while I'm squee'ing, there are a few things that I think could do with another round of revision..." side.
Yeah, echo chambers are bad. My personal guidelines for running any sort of forum is to try to only silence people who aren't being productive, btu complaints are totally valid and need to be allowed. Deleting negative comments doesn't help things.
After reading about how quick PB are to shut down fan sites. You mean to tell me if I come up with conversions for using other mecha in my games of RRT I'll get a CaD letter? Ridiculous.
Cypher-xv wrote: After reading about how quick PB are to shut down fan sites. You mean to tell me if I come up with conversions for using other mecha in my games of RRT I'll get a CaD letter? Ridiculous.
Tread lightly Mike.
Pretty much. They supposedly *CURRENTLY* don't mind you creating material wholey within the megaverse but they don't want you using any other source of inspiration. If you come up with stats for using Gundams or Heavy Gears in Robotech Tactics you'll probably get a letter. Hell, they're likely so full of themselves and their twisted perversion of IP rights that they'd try to get you to stop using your robotech minis in other games if you came up with stats for them.
Balance wrote: My personal rule when GMing is to keep any book look-ups to a minimum.
OTOH a big complaint when a player is I don't like it when my character is made to do X, the GM is aware that I'm good at X, and I find out that X is now Y and I'm totally useless. Not fun.
***snip***
Yeah, echo chambers are bad. My personal guidelines for running any sort of forum is to try to only silence people who aren't being productive, btu complaints are totally valid and need to be allowed. Deleting negative comments doesn't help things.
No issues with the DP9 policing and I've posted a fair amount of criticism over the years. I also agree with the first part. House rules can be a fun or even necessary addition to an RPG ruleset and I've used plenty in my day (like streamlining player turns when all 8 players in an rpg campaign show up instead of the usual 2-3 no shows). They should however be discussed and hopefully agreed upon ahead of time. That's not much of an issue with convention one-off games because most players are amenable to trying new things with characters that they haven't invested time into developing themselves. That's not however the case with minis games as they're a simple social agreement usually between two players to follow a certain framework for a joint activity. Unfortunately, palladium's typical framework is more like a partly collapsed barn on a far off farm that has yet to be condemned. I don't want to have to carry a page of work arounds that has to be agreed upon in order for Robotech Tactics to work as written. With Palladium, I'm likely to need to do that and come up with it on my own as they neither publish game mechanics that work nor do they feel the need to fix or clarify them. Hopefully they won't muck around too much with the rules.
I wish someone who went to the detroit convention had taken pictures as I'm curious if the unit/model cards used there were any different from gencon. If they weren't different, it begs the question of just what they hell they've been doing for the past 10 weeks during those supposed 16 hours a day 7days a week work weeks. If they are different, I'd really like to know what changes they've been making both in response to the KS comments and feedback they've gotten at cons and their own site. I've got my own list of potential issues that I contacted them about on multiple venues that I'm curious to see if any were addressed.
Balance wrote: My personal rule when GMing is to keep any book look-ups to a minimum.
OTOH a big complaint when a player is I don't like it when my character is made to do X, the GM is aware that I'm good at X, and I find out that X is now Y and I'm totally useless. Not fun.
***snip***
Yeah, echo chambers are bad. My personal guidelines for running any sort of forum is to try to only silence people who aren't being productive, btu complaints are totally valid and need to be allowed. Deleting negative comments doesn't help things.
No issues with the DP9 policing and I've posted a fair amount of criticism over the years. I also agree with the first part. House rules can be a fun or even necessary addition to an RPG ruleset and I've used plenty in my day (like streamlining player turns when all 8 players in an rpg campaign show up instead of the usual 2-3 no shows). They should however be discussed and hopefully agreed upon ahead of time. That's not much of an issue with convention one-off games because most players are amenable to trying new things with characters that they haven't invested time into developing themselves. That's not however the case with minis games as they're a simple social agreement usually between two players to follow a certain framework for a joint activity. Unfortunately, palladium's typical framework is more like a partly collapsed barn on a far off farm that has yet to be condemned. I don't want to have to carry a page of work arounds that has to be agreed upon in order for Robotech Tactics to work as written. With Palladium, I'm likely to need to do that and come up with it on my own as they neither publish game mechanics that work nor do they feel the need to fix or clarify them. Hopefully they won't muck around too much with the rules.
I wish someone who went to the detroit convention had taken pictures as I'm curious if the unit/model cards used there were any different from gencon. If they weren't different, it begs the question of just what they hell they've been doing for the past 10 weeks during those supposed 16 hours a day 7days a week work weeks. If they are different, I'd really like to know what changes they've been making both in response to the KS comments and feedback they've gotten at cons and their own site. I've got my own list of potential issues that I contacted them about on multiple venues that I'm curious to see if any were addressed.
Shoot, I'd be happy with the stats from another unit or two and a bit more on the rules.
Cypher-xv wrote: After reading about how quick PB are to shut down fan sites. You mean to tell me if I come up with conversions for using other mecha in my games of RRT I'll get a CaD letter? Ridiculous.
Tread lightly Mike.
Pretty much. They supposedly *CURRENTLY* don't mind you creating material wholey within the megaverse but they don't want you using any other source of inspiration. If you come up with stats for using Gundams or Heavy Gears in Robotech Tactics you'll probably get a letter. Hell, they're likely so full of themselves and their twisted perversion of IP rights that they'd try to get you to stop using your robotech minis in other games if you came up with stats for them.
I hope they don't do that. Many of the backers bought in to use them for BT. Even GW doesn't go around policing people's games. If this is the route PB takes then I don't see the rest of their ks projects taking off. Why bother when you can't do what you want with your own minis.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't like the idea of a GAME company acting like the community Gestapo.
Well, people will of course be free to use RRT figures as proxies in other systems however they like. If you're using someone else's rules but those figures, they should thank you for your purchase and that's the end of that.
Inserting other figures/product lines into RRT, however, I can see being another concern, and more importantly, would tie in nicely with the game being a direct descendant of the RPG. Use copyright/trade mark terms all over the place and I imagine it becomes easier if one feels the need to get litigious over something.
Then again, this all assumes that the RRT rules are good/fun enough that people bother adopting things on a broader scale anyway. As usual, nobody will care if some guy stats up 800 different Gundam for he and his buddies to use in his basement. If he compiles it all into a pdf and starts selling it, however, I could see that being an issue.
Even trickier, I suspect, will be the people who come up with stats for figures that aren't covered under the RRT license but do exist in Robotech/Macross/DYRL/Macross Hyper Super Duper Tournament Fighter Edition/etc. The things everyone was so disappointed to not have a model for in the actual game. You just know that fans will immediately begin stat'ing those things up as soon as the rules get out, at which point it'll be a giant game of internet wide whack-a-mole.
And the harder they fight, the more C&D letters they send, and the later this is delivered, the harder they'll have to fight to bring people onboard for the next campaign, assuming there is one.
I don't know about you guys, but some of this bull is worth holding their feet to the fire over the next time they ask for a couple million in advance on a no-interest (10% haircut aside) loan.
If that happens I can imagine that turning me away from PB altogether. What happened to the fanboies that wanted to talk about RRT? I bet the minute one of the links in this thread were to be posted on the ks comments section, that's when they come out.
Even the Weekly Update won't get posted till Friday. I'm only half-way through writing it and I need to leave for home. There is a lot of news and things to talk about this Update.
How much effort can it take? Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V, adjust a few time references, open thesaurus, use "wacky mad-lib" style update generator, post to internet. Gotta be a 10 minute detail, tops. :-P
But as an aside, and this is something that's been bothering me for a while... does anyone else find it a bit weird that the company big chief has his own "this is what I ate for breakfast, this is the last movie I saw, man I'm glad I'm walking around the block more" section of the forums? Like... does anyone really care?
I love what Gabe Newell has done to revitalize PC gaming, I really don't give a gak how much he's liking this current bunch of grapefruit they're having with breakfast these days or that he's super glad to finally have finished reading *insert novel here*.
With recognition that my long running nitpick streak may simply have me ranting at nothing these days.
Forar, I have no doubt that some of the people who post on PB's forums would gladly crowdfund the production of collected poop on a stick from the palladium parking lot if it were labelled OfficialTM PalladiumTM Dog BoyTM DroppingsTM. They'd likely also run to the Gencon booth to get the popsicle stick signed by the genius who brought such a gift to the market!
In his defense, it's his forum and if he wants to give you more info on his last colonoscopy or the effectiveness of his current Type II Diabetes treatment regiment (both seriously covered in the past year in more detail than the current status of the over $1,000,000 kickstarter), that's his choice. Our choice is to never fund anything of his again. I'm reserving my judgement for when I receive the final product but the path towards that product is reminding me month after month why I stopped supporting palladium on any regular basis long ago.
Guys, I'm no PB or KS fanboy, and I didn't go in as hard as many of you did, but I'm still in it for a bit over $400. "We might deliver in October" BS aside, and even bearing that December isn't going to happen. - And if they Miss December, we're really looking at March/April for our stuff to arrive in the US and then get sent out to us, as all of the relevant bits of China to us seem to shut down for all of February.
So, useless, bs and excuse-filled updates aside, a three-four month delay (assuming we get the stuff in March-April) is pretty much par for the course for this sort of thing, and actually better than a lot of campaigns.
I mean, the bar is pretty fething low at this point, but there we are...
Folks are getting anxious again over at the ks comms section. Seems like thier just as tired of the same BS that has gotten PB thru the years. Kevin needs to understand with us mini wargamer types were a little different from some of our RPG only brethren. Will he adapt? Probably not until there's enough criticism at cons and the PB open house and such. Because the way he tells it only a super duper tiny group is dissatisfied.
I think Kev and PB in general might be in for a rude awaking. At least GW doesn't send the game police after you for trying out different ways of playing with your stuff and sharing it.
But as an aside, and this is something that's been bothering me for a while... does anyone else find it a bit weird that the company big chief has his own "this is what I ate for breakfast, this is the last movie I saw, man I'm glad I'm walking around the block more" section of the forums? Like... does anyone really care?
I love what Gabe Newell has done to revitalize PC gaming, I really don't give a gak how much he's liking this current bunch of grapefruit they're having with breakfast these days or that he's super glad to finally have finished reading *insert novel here*.
I think if you've got a 'face of the company' that does interesting stuff, that's great and worth posting to maintain interest. If it's just boring updates "wrote a bit today. had to fix grammar on page 22" that's not so good. Steve Jackson's recent tragedy (his house was destroyed by the flooding in Texas) will probably be a major event on his company's newsletter, which sends out some sort of update every day. SJG has several 'vocies' for the newsletter, so if Steve Jackson is having a quiet day someone else can fill in.
I had not heard about SJ. I hope he an his family are ok.
As for what I ate for breakfast stuff... I could care less. Today or tomorrow is the next update and hopefully it's not anymore cut an past BS telling us that we'll love it. >_<
To be clear, it's not like it drives me into a frenzy of violence and destruction.
Just... it's a bit weird. Like someone has a journal and feels the need to post pages of it on Facebook. And that someone is the boss of the company. I just don't see why anyone would bother posting about the mundane stuff in the background so often.
But as I said, I recognize that it might just be nitpiking. It's not like I'll be sending them nasty mail about how little I care about their daily jog or whatever.
However, as stated elsewhere, if this is another cut and paste...
PB/ND raised over 1m, you'd think PB or the ninjas would set aside a small budget to hire more people to help out. It's silly that PB sometimes depends on fanboies to help for free getting their product out of the warehouse. It's very unprofessional and it's a cause of concern if that's how PB plans to have our minis handled. Since it's free help an its fanboies doing the work, it's not like Kevin will be cracking the whip and I doubt the fanboies are in the best of shape to pack or load our stuff. So I imagine sluggish activity at the PB warehouse.
Do... do they seriously have volunteer workers fulfilling sales, or am I misreading you?
IIRC they have posted in the past for fans to come and help them with big physical projects like moving to their current location from their old location. I don't pretend to have any knowledge about what they'll do when the Robotech stuff comes in next year (hopefully) but I'd guess that the sheer volume of boxes/minis will dwarf anything that they're currently handling.
IIRC they have posted in the past for fans to come and help them with big physical projects like moving to their current location from their old location. I don't pretend to have any knowledge about what they'll do when the Robotech stuff comes in next year (hopefully) but I'd guess that the sheer volume of boxes/minis will dwarf anything that they're currently handling.
Doesn't Palladium have a Big Huge Warehouse? Which means they're going to want to sue it, so getting the produced minis in and shipping them out themselves, instead of working with a fulfillment/logistics subcontractor, I guess. As big as this deal seems to be, I wonder if not getting outside help could lead to a costing more than subbing it out.
IIRC they have posted in the past for fans to come and help them with big physical projects like moving to their current location from their old location. I don't pretend to have any knowledge about what they'll do when the Robotech stuff comes in next year (hopefully) but I'd guess that the sheer volume of boxes/minis will dwarf anything that they're currently handling.
Doesn't Palladium have a Big Huge Warehouse? Which means they're going to want to sue it, so getting the produced minis in and shipping them out themselves, instead of working with a fulfillment/logistics subcontractor, I guess. As big as this deal seems to be, I wonder if not getting outside help could lead to a costing more than subbing it out.
I've never been to one of their open houses but when they moved a few years back it was to a smaller location from the details they gave in their posts. They had an open call for fans willing to come help with the move since this was at the height of their financial troubles. There isn't anything wrong with that btw if the fans are willing but it does increase the likelihood of them doing it again despite being flush with money this time around.
From reading through those giant threads that some former Palladium writers/freelancers contributed in, it sounds like SOP is for someone to pitch an outline to Kevin, he loves it, they work up a manuscript with minimal or no feedback, hand it in, it doesn't match the idealized version in his head, he decides to do a massive rewrite, cherry picks the stuff that works for him, if they're lucky they get co-credit.
Like, it may be exaggerated, it may not always hold true, but it's hard to hear the experiences of a good half dozen contributors and not get the sense that the entire company sits on his shoulders, for good and ill alike.
Apparently he's vastly less hard on his art staff, however.
Admittedly, it should be mentioned that 'having a warehouse bigger than someone's garage' probably puts a company in the top 1% of gaming companies these days...
Not to mention, paying for warehouse space you aren't currently using is a waste. Paying for space you're using is a lesser waste.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cypher-xv wrote: I had not heard about SJ. I hope he an his family are ok.
It sounds like he's OK, just having to abandon your home kind of sucks. Hopefully he had flood insurance, but I know it's uncommon in a lot of places.
Forar wrote: From reading through those giant threads that some former Palladium writers/freelancers contributed in, it sounds like SOP is for someone to pitch an outline to Kevin, he loves it, they work up a manuscript with minimal or no feedback, hand it in, it doesn't match the idealized version in his head, he decides to do a massive rewrite, cherry picks the stuff that works for him, if they're lucky they get co-credit.
Like, it may be exaggerated, it may not always hold true, but it's hard to hear the experiences of a good half dozen contributors and not get the sense that the entire company sits on his shoulders, for good and ill alike.
Apparently he's vastly less hard on his art staff, however.
It would seem he wears a lot of hats on his head, editor, writer, artist, warehouse worker, blah blah. I'm guessing when he said he was working 12hrs days it was spent writing, drawing and everything in between including warehouse work to get ng1 out. The way PB has handled this ks makes me think RRT was second or third.
Your right about the art staff. If your into this ks then chances are the average backer was a kid when robo aired on TV. Since we've grown so have our taste (for some of us ). Much of the art looks like its stuck in the 80's which is fine, but there's been slow to no progression since. Don't get me wrong I loved the covers to the macross II books, but even GW has continued to bring fresh art/artist while recycling some of their older art.
Not yet, but when he does you'll love it because it's going to be super cool. That and he needs to finish doing his now famous cut past job from other articles to get the new update ready.
Not yet, but when he does you'll love it because it's going to be super cool. That and he needs to finish doing his now famous cut past job from other articles to get the new update ready.
I hear he showed it around the office and people were really excited. Of course it was also payday and the paychecks were in the other hand so that could be part of it as well.
Forar wrote: To be clear, it's not like it drives me into a frenzy of violence and destruction.
Just... it's a bit weird. Like someone has a journal and feels the need to post pages of it on Facebook. And that someone is the boss of the company. I just don't see why anyone would bother posting about the mundane stuff in the background so often.
But as I said, I recognize that it might just be nitpiking. It's not like I'll be sending them nasty mail about how little I care about their daily jog or whatever.
However, as stated elsewhere, if this is another cut and paste...
The update is up, and the delay is now out to an optimistic February 2014, manufacturing has not started on anything yet - they haven't even finished approving the layouts for the books and cards, let alone the minis
Project Update #116: Big Progress Update
Posted by Palladium Books ♥ Like
Hey everybody, sorry for not getting you more substantive details sooner, but we’ve been working to hammer out all the details and variables around the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ project, for you, our distributors, and ourselves.
First, not only is this Palladium Books’ very first Kickstarter, this is also our first venture into making a game like Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Our learning curve has been steep and this undertaking is massive, even with Ninja Division’s experience and handling of much of this.
Second, the scope of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ was expansive and demanding to begin with, and grew as the Kickstarter went on. The sheer number of different product SKUs, special figures, poses, components for the box game, the many expansion kits, and so on, has meant a tremendous amount of work and logistics. That’s okay, because we want this game line to be truly epic, but it has proven challenging for everyone involved.
Third, the consensus of everyone, Palladium Books to Ninja Division and Harmony Gold, has been that it is better to get this product right than to rush it.
Fourth, detail matters. As Palladium Books has stated before, we want the end product to be everything Robotech fans could want. And we have a pretty good idea of what that is, because a) we listen to you, and b) we are super-fans ourselves. This has actually added to Ninja Division’s work load, because we want these representations of the Robotech® mecha we all know and love to be as detailed and awesome as possible. When there were shortcuts Ninja Division could have taken or Palladium could have authorized, we agreed not to do so in order to give you a superior product.
For example, that has meant numerous additions and tweaks to sculpts, and additional cost and engineering considerations for mold-making and manufacturing. This has caused delays and doubled the cost of the molds, but Palladium is willing to make that sacrifice to give you the best product we can possibly make. No cutting corners if we can avoid it.
The ship date. At this point, we still do not have an exact release date, but it’s no longer possible for it to be in December, as we have not even gone into manufacturing yet. If I had to guess, I’d say February, 2014, though we’re working to try to make it sooner. Palladium Books and Ninja Division are looking to firm up details and dates, and we’ll provide them to you as we get them ourselves.
Is this delay disappointing? Of course, but this is worth doing right. Palladium has spent thousands of dollars on advertising stating the game is coming out in the Fall of 2013 and December 2013, so obviously, that was the plan. But as I said, when faced with sacrificing quality, we all agreed to take a step back and go with quality even if it meant delaying the release. Even our distributors, who are champing at the bit for this game just like you, agreed it is better to do Robotech® right than to rush it out for fast sales, or quick, personal gratification.
Here’s how things are unfolding:
1. Almost there. The design and layout work for the rule book, stat cards, packaging and accessories are all pretty much complete. They are the fast and easy part of manufacturing. It’s the final mold engineering and mold-making that has been taking some time to keep the details and features we know you’ll want. As we get close to finalizing that process, we approach the actual manufacturing. However, our earlier delays mean we face a glut of product in the pipeline for Christmas, and potentially further delays.
2. Manufacturing. How soon our job can get into manufacture (hopefully later this month) will determine how quickly we’ll get the finished product. Other factors include the Chinese New Year that closes down much of the manufacturing for a few weeks, and shipping to the USA port (another 4-6 weeks), then clearing Customs and then shipping to Palladium. The latter should go quickly (a week?).
3. USA: Once product is in Palladium’s hands, even with an efficient assembly line set up and additional help brought in, it will take some time to process, pick, pack and ship the 5,000+ Kickstarter orders and the many Kickstarter accessories and special items. Note: Kickstarter orders will ship before Palladium sends any product to distributors for retail distribution. We appreciate your support, and you will get the product before it goes to retail. And remember, MANY of the Kickstarter items will be in your hands months before the retail expansion packs are released in waves to retail. Enjoy.
4. EU & Overseas: We have made special arrangements to pull, pack and address your packages at the Palladium warehouse, and then ship them in bulk to an agent who will post them from within the EU. That should mean everyone in the EU will get shipped around the same time, but after packages are shipped in the USA.
We will update details and firmer dates as we learn them. Meanwhile, Palladium will continue to provide you with images of actual game pieces and the full production packages as we go along.
Our apologies for the longer than anticipated wait. The game pieces/models are gorgeous, the game is a fast, fun simulation of the Robotech® TV show, and this product will be worth it!
With Appreciation,
Kevin Siembieda, Publisher
November 1, 2013
While I appreciate a more lengthy update even if the news is bad, this part in bold is absolute crap.. they're either lying now or were then (and at the beginning of the KS). Also, we've apparently lost the reserved manufacturing slot they had due to the delays which means they'll have to wait for another to open up (and as they said it will be difficult to get prior to Xmas).
Nov 1, 2013
1. Almost there. The design and layout work for the rule book, stat cards, packaging and accessories are all pretty much complete. They are the fast and easy part of manufacturing. It’s the final mold engineering and mold-making that has been taking some time to keep the details and features we know you’ll want. As we get close to finalizing that process, we approach the actual manufacturing. However, our earlier delays mean we face a glut of product in the pipeline for Christmas, and potentially further delays.
Oct 17, 2013
Things have been progressing, with the rulebook and the various stat cards all laid out and going through final proofreading, and the last,
Sept 25, 2013
Fear not, we've been very busy behind the scenes, working to put the final touches on everything and get manufacturing started.
The rulebook is in final layout, and should be sent in for approvals sometime next week.
Game stat cards have been laid out and are being finalized now.
So basically no progress on the rules/cards side for at least the past month since they're about in the same spot as they were before... and no work on HG approvals now that the very end of their latest "approval" estimate has passed. February 2014 is a complete joke just like the revision to October was. Palladium got alot of good will out of me during the actual kickstarter but it's all getting pissed away and this is starting to stink like the Northern Gun crowdfunding fiasco.
So to recap.. the sculpts are still being tweaked, the paper stuff is still almost done, and they don't know when they'll have an opening to manufacture when they're done. Hmm... that doesn't exactly jive with
April 18, 2013
Sculpts for the game pieces are almost entirely complete. The rulebook and game components are deep in development and will be ready for layout soon. Our manufacturers are also ready and have reserved factory time for the project.
There's some guy complaining that they went for a Chinese manufacturer instead of an American one, because American stuff is always superior to that Chinese rubbish - and then called Dragon, Trumpeter, and GW (minus Finecast) poor quality.
He's just angry his job was outsourced. I've had friends lament for losing their IT jobs.
Good luck to PB in getting the rest of the saga done if they go the ks route. I want third gen mecha but I don't want to give my money to a company that says there done for months at a time and then tell me that it's not ready. Which is it? That alone is the one thing that annoyed me about this whole procces/fiasco.
I noticed the usual PB apologist haven't made any comments yet over on the RRT comments section. I'm sure at the next con or open house they'll be there to console and tell lil Kevy "hey it's not your fault it's the 1% minority that's at fault". It's this kind of BS that I think has not helped PB improve over the last couple of decades.
Azazelx wrote: That "update" was essentially a lot of words that told us no new information at all.
no it said
1) Nothing is actually ready to manufacture yet, not the cards, not the boxes, not the book, not the moulds
so
2) completion is a long, long way away (probably about 6 months plus based on what Relic Knights experienced when they missed their manufacturing slot for a similar 'large' project)
NTRabbit wrote: There's some guy complaining that they went for a Chinese manufacturer instead of an American one, because American stuff is always superior to that Chinese rubbish - and then called Dragon, Trumpeter, and GW (minus Finecast) poor quality.
NTRabbit wrote: There's some guy complaining that they went for a Chinese manufacturer instead of an American one, because American stuff is always superior to that Chinese rubbish - and then called Dragon, Trumpeter, and GW (minus Finecast) poor quality.
Americans!
You're joking, right?
About which part?
Oh, seems I was wrong about GW using China. Still, all the best hobby kit manufacturers are now Chinese, barring Hasegawa and Tamiya (and whomever makes the Gundam kits I guess?) in Japan, it's silly to suggest they're automatically bad quality because :china:
Azazelx wrote: That "update" was essentially a lot of words that told us no new information at all.
no it said
1) Nothing is actually ready to manufacture yet, not the cards, not the boxes, not the book, not the moulds
so
2) completion is a long, long way away (probably about 6 months plus based on what Relic Knights experienced when they missed their manufacturing slot for a similar 'large' project)
Forgive my snark, but that's what I've been saying for some time now. On both points.
I have been expecting roughly a year. I'm not really happy about it, but that is part of my new set of expectations for kickstarters.
1) The delay will be a year or more. NO EXCEPTIONS.
2) The final product will be at most 75% as cool as it looks now.
3) The Kickstarter discussion thread will be entertaining enough to cushion the blow of the extended delays and product flaws.
Here's what one insider had to say about this mess:
From a perspective "behind the curtain" I have to say this.. This project was a BIG gamble from the start. I spent too many hours designing, thinking, and making phone calls trying to make this happen. We knew there were Robotech Fans "out there". We knew that if we built it they would come. This was a huge gamble that Palladium threw out there, and by the looks of it it is going to pay off well.. but when I talked with Kevin a LONG time ago, we were expecting a project that would get a few battle pods and veritech or three.. I thought that a $40,000 goal was a lofty one and would be hard to reach.. there was little thought early on as to lots of stretch goals and experimental mecha. at least be me. ALL OF YOU, made that happen. The prep work that larger companies do on their projects is different than what was going on here.Thankfully, everyone at Palladium and Ninje were prepared for the possibility of success.The project grew exponentially larger than initially expected, but we knew we had the personnel and with Ninja Division in our corner with their expertise, the project would happen. As a first Kickstarter to do. This was a big deal! As stated the learning curve was steep and the hours put into this were long, but the people working on the project want to see things done right. I've watched the project as much of you have and I have no complaints. Above all, the only thing you can blame Palladium or Anyone working on the project is that they are victims of their own commitment to seeing the project done right. If people cannot accept that everyone is trying to create the best game and miniatures they can for YOU, the fans, than you can go somewhere else. Don't complain here. I will not have you tarnish something that I feel so strongly about. I have seen this project go from two sentences typed on my computer to 1.4 million and the creation of every mini that I ever played with in my imagination! I'm here till the end!
Here is my response:
@WilhelmRoachRedDuke: I too applauded your efforts as well as that of everyone working passionately for us equally passionate backers. But to sugar coat the way PB/ND have handled this project as far as transparency is concerned is no way to cultivate understanding from us loyal backers.
One of PB problems is that PB doesn't want to admit that they have issues with their RPG system or product delivery. I know this because on the PB forums as soon as someone brings it up in a positive and constructive manner, the OP gets called out as someone whose part of some silly cabal to tarnish PB. This is obvious to newbies just by looking at people's sigs on the forums that tell you PB employees themselves are in on it. I would call that very unprofessional and not a good way to market your company. Go look for yourself and see how many you can find were the sigs says this individual will not buy books by certain PB writers/freelancers because apperantly they go insulting other posters/customers.
So you sir with all do respect have no right to claim righteous indignation just because you can't handle the fact that the equally passionate backers are feeling left out if the loop. Because at least here the 1% as lil Kevy puts it can finally voice their dissatisfaction with PB and how Kevin's been running the show. Please understand I'm not attacking you, PB or Kevin, but when you want to only comment when you see how we'er displeased at how this venture has been run and not comment all the other times we asked for rules or product updates just makes you seem petulant, petty and condescending.
Also as Shaggy said earlier your comments are biased yet still relevant to the conversation, just like everyone else's opinion. Thank you for the sneak peek behind the curtain but please your condemnation of the backers just proves what some of PB customers have been saying about PB employees insulting their own customers.
He's not done. He kept it up. I must have hit pretty close to the mark to get him all riled up. Turns out one of the backers was disgusted by his emotional outburst, and is going to file a complaint with PB over his emotional conduct. Anyways you guys can see the rest of his hissy fit.
It's disturbing, makes it seem like they are a bunch of mental deficients operating out of a special workshop where everyone has to walk on eggshells or risk an episode.
I wish I could message him that it's not a small number just that some of us have concerns and he needs to stop assuming its a vocal minority. I won't because he'll think I'm attacking him personally. When really he's operating under false assumptions.
Nov 1, 2013
Big Progress Update
137 comments
30 likes
Hey everybody, sorry for not getting you more substantive details sooner, but we’ve been working to hammer out all the details and variables around the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ project, for you, our distributors, and ourselves.
First, not only is this Palladium Books’ very first Kickstarter, this is also our first venture into making a game like Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Our learning curve has been steep and this undertaking is massive, even with Ninja Division’s experience and handling of much of this.
Second, the scope of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ was expansive and demanding to begin with, and grew as the Kickstarter went on. The sheer number of different product SKUs, special figures, poses, components for the box game, the many expansion kits, and so on, has meant a tremendous amount of work and logistics. That’s okay, because we want this game line to be truly epic, but it has proven challenging for everyone involved.
Third, the consensus of everyone, Palladium Books to Ninja Division and Harmony Gold, has been that it is better to get this product right than to rush it.
Fourth, detail matters. As Palladium Books has stated before, we want the end product to be everything Robotech fans could want. And we have a pretty good idea of what that is, because a) we listen to you, and b) we are super-fans ourselves. This has actually added to Ninja Division’s work load, because we want these representations of the Robotech® mecha we all know and love to be as detailed and awesome as possible. When there were shortcuts Ninja Division could have taken or Palladium could have authorized, we agreed not to do so in order to give you a superior product.
For example, that has meant numerous additions and tweaks to sculpts, and additional cost and engineering considerations for mold-making and manufacturing. This has caused delays and doubled the cost of the molds, but Palladium is willing to make that sacrifice to give you the best product we can possibly make. No cutting corners if we can avoid it.
The ship date. At this point, we still do not have an exact release date, but it’s no longer possible for it to be in December, as we have not even gone into manufacturing yet. If I had to guess, I’d say February, 2014, though we’re working to try to make it sooner. Palladium Books and Ninja Division are looking to firm up details and dates, and we’ll provide them to you as we get them ourselves.
Is this delay disappointing? Of course, but this is worth doing right. Palladium has spent thousands of dollars on advertising stating the game is coming out in the Fall of 2013 and December 2013, so obviously, that was the plan. But as I said, when faced with sacrificing quality, we all agreed to take a step back and go with quality even if it meant delaying the release. Even our distributors, who are champing at the bit for this game just like you, agreed it is better to do Robotech® right than to rush it out for fast sales, or quick, personal gratification.
Here’s how things are unfolding:
1. Almost there. The design and layout work for the rule book, stat cards, packaging and accessories are all pretty much complete. They are the fast and easy part of manufacturing. It’s the final mold engineering and mold-making that has been taking some time to keep the details and features we know you’ll want. As we get close to finalizing that process, we approach the actual manufacturing. However, our earlier delays mean we face a glut of product in the pipeline for Christmas, and potentially further delays.
2. Manufacturing. How soon our job can get into manufacture (hopefully later this month) will determine how quickly we’ll get the finished product. Other factors include the Chinese New Year that closes down much of the manufacturing for a few weeks, and shipping to the USA port (another 4-6 weeks), then clearing Customs and then shipping to Palladium. The latter should go quickly (a week?).
3. USA: Once product is in Palladium’s hands, even with an efficient assembly line set up and additional help brought in, it will take some time to process, pick, pack and ship the 5,000+ Kickstarter orders and the many Kickstarter accessories and special items. Note: Kickstarter orders will ship before Palladium sends any product to distributors for retail distribution. We appreciate your support, and you will get the product before it goes to retail. And remember, MANY of the Kickstarter items will be in your hands months before the retail expansion packs are released in waves to retail. Enjoy.
4. EU & Overseas: We have made special arrangements to pull, pack and address your packages at the Palladium warehouse, and then ship them in bulk to an agent who will post them from within the EU. That should mean everyone in the EU will get shipped around the same time, but after packages are shipped in the USA.
We will update details and firmer dates as we learn them. Meanwhile, Palladium will continue to provide you with images of actual game pieces and the full production packages as we go along.
Our apologies for the longer than anticipated wait. The game pieces/models are gorgeous, the game is a fast, fun simulation of the Robotech® TV show, and this product will be worth it!
With Appreciation,
Kevin Siembieda, Publisher
November 1, 2013
No... to be honest, I try to stay away from there as much as possible after all the unnecessary hurled insults thrown during the Max/Miriya debacle. I'll occasionally check the comments (usually the day an update comes out) but otherwise I try to stay away much like with the Palladium forums. People defending the indefensible pisses me off.
One of the game creators lost his cool and basically told the backers to GTFO if there not happy with the way things are going. All he did was prove what I've seen on the PB forums about PB employees insulting their customers.
I wandered through that mess. I believe he later mentioned that he wasn't really an employee, just someone involved in the beta testing, but considering how often in the last 7 months he's spoken with an 'official' voice, I think the damage is done there.
There are some who are disappointed, some who are truly angry, and some highly frustrating 'white knights/cult members' who are taking this (generally reasonable) frustration as some sort of personal affront.
I'm not going to apologize for being annoyed when a company spends months saying "hey, guys, it's cool, I know we've had issues in the past but we're totes cool this time" and then follow up with half a year of silence, platitudes, mixed signals and now finally a 'come to Jesus' moment where they admit what we've all been thinking for months now.
And sadly that may not be the last of the "big sorry we've got bad news" posts to come.
Like, I'm not surprised there are delays and overoptimistic estimates in place.
I am a bit disappointed that even with HG and NG involved, nobody managed to wrangle that gak in a bit.
Amazing how quickly things change from what actually happened to a version that fits their preconceived notions about what is going to happen.
Some people have taken LEGITIMATE concerns and frustrations over the project (lack of communication, the cut and paste updates, etc) and have blown it up into the “worst KS ever” and used it as an excuse to vent about Palladium Books in general. It might be one thing if it was different people complaining, but it is the same group of 5 or 6 who have been nothing but critical of every aspect of this KS. Most of us just want more communication from the creators and updates that are not cut and pasted from last week. Heck, PB could get a lot of good will by just releasing a PDF of the rules and cards and most of us would be in hog heaven.
And more thing; the approximate delivery date for each pledge has ALWAYS been listed as December 2013. Despite wild over enthusiasm about an October delivery date shortly after release (that everyone scoffed at BTW), this project is not even LATE yet. It has been said time and time again that MOST kickstarters are late. This happens for a variety of reasons, but it is almost a built in feature of successful campaigns. Yes I know that Dwarven Forge was on time (since that is usually the example given), but it is in the VAST minority and the product is ENTIRELY different.
And I am NOT a member of the shadowy Palladium Book cabal who only allow good things to be said about PB on the internet. I don’t work for PB. I don’t even OWN anything PB has published in the past 20 years. I just like the idea of having Robotech figures to paint and game with.
Cypher-xv wrote: One of the game creators lost his cool and basically told the backers to GTFO if there not happy with the way things are going. All he did was prove what I've seen on the PB forums about PB employees insulting their customers.
Cypher-xv wrote: One of the game creators lost his cool and basically told the backers to GTFO if there not happy with the way things are going. All he did was prove what I've seen on the PB forums about PB employees insulting their customers.
I don't think the comments section for an update has ever gone this long. Folks are still pissed at PB for lack of transperancy and the emotional outburst. The worst part is that backers who hardly posted are now speaking up about the issues with PB.
Just like AndrewDrexler many of us here are happy to finally get robo minis to game with. I agree that some who have an axe to grind with PB are using it to rage at PB. But considering their past record with being on time and the misinformation/lying in the updates, you really can't blame them. I haven't had a PB book since the early 90's. All the info about PB didn't come to light (for me at least) till after the ks was over. I have to say I'm very disappointed with the way events have unfolded. It's not the delay that bothers me and many backers. It's that many feel like PB has mis lead us for some time now. That coupled by the fact that their representative (not employee) went off on the people that made all this possible with our financial support. An when this individual did say sorry it seemed forced and not sincere.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would be disappointed if HG came out with another SC movie and a live action robo film before RRT was out.
Andrewdrexler wrote: And more thing; the approximate delivery date for each pledge has ALWAYS been listed as December 2013. Despite wild over enthusiasm about an October delivery date shortly after release (that everyone scoffed at BTW), this project is not even LATE yet.
They haven't even finished the rulebook layout, or finalised the minis, despite repeatedly telling us they were almost done in every update since May. In order for this project to not be late it needed to begin manufacturing in October - and they just told us manufacturing won't even start before Chinese New Years. The project is officially late, and they've officially been lying to us since the end of the funding period. I don't have an axe to grind, I didn't even know who Palladium Books were or what their reputation was until well after I'd pledged, and was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for months afterwards.
Compare to Deadzone, which ran at the same time, and actually finished 10 days later, with the same December delivery. They had betas of the rules up early. They had a steady stream of updates indicating actual progress and setbacks. They finalised and entered manufacturing on time, and now they're going to deliver in the UK in December as promised, with RoW Dec/Jan. They clearly explained that stretch items would come in a later production run and shipment. They have had some criticism, some doubts over quality, and in their own recent big update explained that some things had been pushed back due to issues with hard plastic moulds, but people get freebies now and hard plastic later if it works. Mixed response, but they're on time and have never stopped communicating.
I know this game will be a success, I just wonder how the next two will go? I figure it should run smoothly compared to this one. An this time the updates will have more meaning than the usual cut an paste job as well as being honest with their backers. My concern is that Kevin will still see PB as a books only company and not a game company.
If PB has their hands in the "next two" they'll end up exactly the same as this one.
The game may be a success, but if so it'll be in spite of Kevin's involvement instead of because of it.
On one hand, I'd hope the later ones go better as they'll hopefully have learned from this experience. Smoothed over the rough edges; more ducks in a row before going to campaign, better idea of how long everything takes, etc, etc, etc.
On the other hand, the same can be said of Palladium's books themselves, and they've remained absurdly out of touch with the realities of their own release schedule for decades.
As noted, I'd hoped having other groups involved would help keep them realistic, but apparently I was wrong in that assessment. Not to mention that, completely anecdotally, the first and third series seem to garner the most attention and love. There are certainly SC fans out there, but I wouldn't count them in nearly the same numbers.
Not to mention that they're staying to scale, so most of the SC figures will be smaller than their Macross counterparts, which could help keep costs down for them and backers alike, but it'll depend on the route they take with the game as well.
Really interested on how they plan to deal with itty bitty cyclones and whatnot, but at this rate it'll be 2016 before we find that out.
I also hope they do all three series in a row. They've said they want to do a Rifts Tactics as well, and interjecting that into the mix could push the final series back by 1-2 years or more.
Also, I've gotta say, I'm kind of growing tired of hearing "it's delayed because we totally want to give you the best stuff evar!" from campaigns. I disagree; projects seem to often be delayed because someone seems to have stuffed up the timeline and it's snowballing into an avalanche of issues.
Expediency shouldn't come at the cost of quality, but when we're getting "2-3 weeks" as an estimate just to get feedback on sculpts...
I thought the same about that as well, that someone screwed up and it's turned into an avalanche. What will get to me is if the quality is poor and the "we delayed this for QC purposes" was an excuse to buy PB more time to play catch up.
Someone brought up chaos earth. What happened there? I'd ask on the ks but I'm afraid it'll cause another outburst insulting PB customers.
Apologies for the cross post, but I finally found it! The illusive "45 days" quote!
Why should you care?
The Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Kickstarter helps Palladium to fund the launch of a compelling and expanding game line designed specifically for Robotech® fans and gamers.
Six months of product development has produced nearly two dozen gorgeous sculptures (with more to come), a mountain of artwork, and game rules that have been play-tested by more than 100 Robotech fans and gamers to ensure we make Robotech® RPG Tactics™ everything you could want.
Once the Kickstarter reaches our funding goal, we have a host of fantastic upgrades, additional game pieces and new unit add-ons to unlock! Every Destroid. More Zentraedi mecha. More fun!
And because so much is DONE, this project should go into manufacturing within 45 days after the Kickstarter! That’s fast.
It wasn't until the September 26th update that they officially changed the target from "Fall" to "December", "January" on October 12th, and "February (tentative) as of November 1st. So in 5 weeks the release date moved 2 months. We're actually going backwards at this point.
If this pattern holds, we'll be at "March/April" by the end of the month.
What really sucks is that PB pissed away thousands of backer or on house money that could have been used for something else like modern book making equipment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's also disappointing that the naysayers were right about PB folks insulting the their fans.
Cypher-xv wrote: What really sucks is that PB pissed away thousands of backer or on house money that could have been used for something else like modern book making equipment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's also disappointing that the naysayers were right about PB folks insulting the their fans.
Pfft... only the weak need more than elmers and a sharpened pair of scissors to layout a book! I can imaginge the excitement around the office and Kevin would start up the ol' Gutenberg press and stoke the coals to warm the glue for a new title. Yes, I know they've finally moved onto digital publishing/layout in 2006 but the fact that they were still doing that in 2006 outside of a third world nation without running water or consistent electricity is amusing. Although.. from some reports, the around Palladium (Detroit) might actually meet those requirements.
Palladium doesn't care. They've flat out said in the past (about the Robotech project specifically before the KS) that they only respond to positive feedback. I too hoped that they'd turn over a new leaf going into a new genre but they seem intent on repeating not only their own tried and true mistakes over and over again but are adopting more modern KS minis specific mistakes made by other companies. Frankly, at this point I fully expect a Mantic-style problem when they get the minis from China and they get Men At Arms style plastic blobs due to bad undercuts due to not sending someone to oversee the production personally.
My best guess: They made a business decision to go with smaller dies = less cost + longer production time.
Each element would have a known time to produce.
The only business decision is to decide how much product to get on each die.
It completely depends on how much production time means to you.
If I was a betting man I would say they had sticker shock over the initial efficient design that got sent to management for a proper production die.
Say, probably half that number was determined as enough for the die and it is half as big and possibly half as much.
Suddenly though, production time takes twice as long and BINGO that gets us from late December into February (easy math).
It also is harder to tune larger dies to deliver consistent good product and not get short shots or uneven heating/cooling in the die driving up more cost.
Meeting a deadline has proven to be a low priority to Palladium historically so going cheaper with longer production times was a no brainer.
My best guess for something where voodoo and black magic only applies to the design process, production is a pretty straight forward affair.
Coming from an extensive manufacturing background: not having a handle on the actual production timeline shows poor planning or an inability to face or say the truth, I have found few other reasons other than that.
Plus:
An hour a day by one employee giving reasonable progress reports would go a long way at keeping the wolves at bay and customer involvement.
A picture of a machined die would cause an "oohh, ahhhh!": just throw a bone.
I've been married for several years now, and the only reason I still am and not divorced like many of my friends is because I eventually learned to listen. Is it a guarantee that I'll stay married, no. But listing to the voice of others even if unpleasant can bring about positive change.
It would also explain why he's now single. This is not meant as a cheap blow. This is just to exemplify why PB is still stuck chasing their tail. A refusal or unwillingness to take the advise or opinion of others.
@warboss: It's a shame really. PB could be so much more if they changed that attitude.
Kendachi wrote: Why does anyone think a kickstarter after this, for ANYTHING mind you, would go any different?
Kevin's been at this for 30 years, he's not gonna change now.
Hope springs eternal?
The hope that someone other than a salesman is in charge?
We have no other choice if we want a Robotech game or we are using printed cutouts or hunting down old tiny models.
Kevin is now in an age that everything is quotable unlike early in his career.
I personally heard him say "What do you want: the best product or on time?"
They do not appear mutually inclusive to him.
I really pray it turns out to be the "best product" to justify being cavalier with the ship dates..
Kendachi wrote: Why does anyone think a kickstarter after this, for ANYTHING mind you, would go any different?
Kevin's been at this for 30 years, he's not gonna change now.
Great! That means I wasted my time posting this.
The delay isn't what bothers me. It's the fact that the naysayers were right about PB employees or people associated with PB, when it comes to how they treat their fans. That is something that I did not want to believe. Unfortunately the weekends events have soured my perception of PB, ND. What brought this to my attention was that fact that several fans have this for their sig:
"I will boycott any books written by posters who make a sport of insulting other posters, insulting your customers is a poor way to earn sales".
That tells me as a customer that PB employees do go out insulting their fans on other forums. Maybe not to their face but indirectly.
Also it's deplorable that PB pissed away either backer money or PB money for what now seems like false advertising for RRT.
Followed by:
@PB: Please understand it's not a vocal few that feel this way. That has been made evident by the posts backers have left on this update alone. I'm not asking for free stuff or an apology just please do a better job informing us about progress made or lack there of. We'er all adults here and the wording of past updates makes it seem like you have a low opinion of our intelligence. Many see past the fanboiesm in your posts. It's insulting that you think you can pull these shenanigans time after time. This sort of attitude may have worked for the last 30yrs, but you now have the miniatures crowd to contend with. If my years of following GW has taught me anything is that we'er a vocal bunch. I thank you for listing to my rant and hope you take it as a fan who wants nothing but the best for PB/ND and RRT.
Thank you
A possibly naive hope that having HG cracking the whip and Ninja Division supposedly doing a lot of the heavy lifting might keep them remotely on track? Having a vested interest in this project going as well as possible since they presumably wish to curry the favour (and millions of dollars) from tens of thousands of backers, collectors and players over the coming years?
One only needs to scroll back to the early pages of this thread to see that people expressed concern and wariness repeatedly over those exact points, but were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Apparently it wasn't deserved after all. Sure, one can go on a "fool me once..." stance and feel smugly superior to those who are apparently worse at pattern recognition, but at the end of the day was it really so bad that people were willing to give them a second chance?
By that measure, I still think they are more worthy of whatever mockery and scorn they might get for failing yet again that we should heaps of eye rolling at those willing to take a risk based on a property they loved, even despite those misgivings.
Not that I feel you're entirely wrong Kendachi, I think we see eye to eye on many aspects of this campaign, and I agree with the need to start seeing some rules, some stat cards, some characters, *something* to indicate that this project isn't just wallowing in development hell.
I just don't think it's entirely fair to blame backers for believing that, complicated as a multi-company/licensing situation can be, that it was impossible for it all to work out at least vaguely as lain out.
Remember, they were going to be starting up manufacturing within 45 days of the campaign ending.
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
