Thinking that republic and democratic are mutually exclusive is... I think pointing out that sort of stupidity strays into politics.
An example of a monarchical democracy would be the UK.
An example of a democratic republic would be the USA.
(seriously, this is one of the more inane pieces of political propoganda that circulates in the USA)
No it isn't, an electoral college is inately undemocratic institution aristocraticing the system inherently top it off atleast in the start with censitary suffrage and yes, that is not democratic, then again, i am biased in that way.
Swiss government is cautiously optimistic, worst case scenario not happened yet.
Sounds like Trump is considering locking down NY, NJ and parts of CT. As somebody who lives near the NY border and in the obvious quarantine area...good. It should be locked down. I would happily follow a 2 week, don’t leave the house, quarantine if it was helpful. The fact that people can’t seem to handle that is the reason this spreads.
I live in Henley-on-Thames. My daughter is an undergraduate at University of Exeter.
The university has quite rightly decided to hold all exams online.
My daughter came home last week. Government restrictions on unnecessary travel ban her from returning to her shared house in Exeter. The landlord's mortgage is protected by government guarantee.
timetowaste85 wrote: Sounds like Trump is considering locking down NY, NJ and parts of CT. As somebody who lives near the NY border and in the obvious quarantine area...good. It should be locked down. I would happily follow a 2 week, don’t leave the house, quarantine if it was helpful. The fact that people can’t seem to handle that is the reason this spreads.
Its several days too late. It still needs to be done, but Cuomo should have taken this measure earlier- people were fleeing the city in large numbers last weekend, meaning an unknown number of infected headed to unknown locations. Its one of the worst possible (and most predictable) things people do in epidemics, and makes the whole situation worse, as it jumpstarts the infection cycle in new locations.
Its one of the reasons I'm tired of hearing how 'unprecedented' all this is. I've got several volumes on the history of disease and epidemics on the shelf behind me that say otherwise. The way people act, interact and panic is really predictable. The illusion of short term security always trumps long term beneficial behavior.
Impressive? Debatable (Though people used to rave a lot about Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel)
But for a list of titles-
Rats, Lice and History; Zinsser (an early 20th century text, but gets interesting once he gets past the basics of bacteria and infection)
Some compiled essays on different diseases:
Epidemics and History; Watts
Epidemics and Ideas; Ranger & Slack (editors)
The Black Death; Nohl
Black Death, The Great Mortality of 1348-1350, A Brief History with Documents; Aberth (good for the contemporary accounts)
Been awhile. Remember Dakkadakka and knew there be a post on "19". Anyway. Movement Coordinator now for the US Military. I changed jobs awhile back. Main effort now is sending medical equipment and supplies to Gulfport, MS.
Think everyone knows USS Comfort is NY and USS Mercy to San Diego.
USS Mercy was supposed to be WA but CA went major blip on radar. WA is on back burner but county I live in Kitsap so 49 confirmed with some deaths.
US Navy and certain Army units are self isolating themselves. Force Protection paramount. USS Roosevelt put a scared in the Military big time
You hear about "Reefers", what we call refrigerated semi trailers. Are being deployed to NYC and surrounding areas. Face it. Not enough room in the morgues
AK is showing on radar now so Ft. Smith now becoming the region logistics . FL is the Navy base in Jacksonville to be a logistic HUB
Ventilators. Everyone knows the US Military hold on to everything till it hits a DEMIL date. Pretty much all ventilators are shipped, being serviced, and/or being broking out of storage.
Red Cross need blood so donate. They will screen you. If a fever over a 100F (no idea in Celsius), and showing 4 symptoms they will deny and pretty much tell you to go get tested.
Reactivating of retired and IRR military personnel. Well right now its HQ elements and medical. Basically military medical units are being formed. Some for deployment overseas and rest to get sent anywhere needed in the US.
RipTide mention something to the effect to not bring politics into is. He's right. They're all idiot's and still want to play Politics with our collective butt in the wind. Though know this. We were already moving some cargo already to preposition sites.
No idea why Cuomo believes it wouldn't be legally enforceable. They're in a state of medical emergency and drawing on various wartime laws to deal with it. Physically doing quarantining a city seems far more difficult, and NYC is one of the easiest cities in the country to block off, with bridges and chokepoints instead of the usual endless web of city roads in a 360 degree circle.
No idea why Cuomo believes it wouldn't be legally enforceable. They're in a state of medical emergency and drawing on various wartime laws to deal with it. Physically doing quarantining a city seems far more difficult, and NYC is one of the easiest cities in the country to block off, with bridges and chokepoints instead of the usual endless web of city roads in a 360 degree circle.
Freedom of Travel is a well established right within the US and the only legal provisions for infringing on it are in the context of foreign invasion, which a disease is definitely not. Quarantining people in the case of infectious diseases legally generally requires them to be proven to be infected or have come in direct contact with an infected person. Applying that sort of restriction to millions of people without any verified exposure is an extremely questionable leap. IE: its legal to quarantine specific individuals you know have been exposed. Its not legal to make a blanket quarantine targeting millions of people who may or may not have come in contact with it.
Legally speaking, the Shelter in Place orders in-effect in various states right now are almost certainly illegal and would not survive legal challenge.
All of the Shelter in place and quarantine orders really are relying on the willing compliance of everybody, because they are almost certainly not constitutional. Which is why in a lot of areas outside the major cities the cops aren't enforcing them.
Nobody is really putting too much effort into enforcing them to be fair, I can walk around town I want all day and I'm not going to get asked for my papers. Thus far, the only enforcement I've seen is shutting down of large gatherings and slapping additional charges on people doing stupid stuff that already had generated large rap sheets
That said, there doesn't appear to be too much significant enforcement needed, people do appear to mostly generally be voluntarily adhering to the restrictions.
Vaktathi wrote: Nobody is really putting too much effort into enforcing them to be fair, I can walk around town I want all day and I'm not going to get asked for my papers. Thus far, the only enforcement I've seen is shutting down of large gatherings and slapping additional charges on people doing stupid stuff that already had generated large rap sheets
That said, there doesn't appear to be too much significant enforcement needed, people do appear to mostly generally be voluntarily adhering to the restrictions.
Same here, which incidentally is gerat for once seeing the people working together for the most part.
No idea why Cuomo believes it wouldn't be legally enforceable. They're in a state of medical emergency and drawing on various wartime laws to deal with it. Physically doing quarantining a city seems far more difficult, and NYC is one of the easiest cities in the country to block off, with bridges and chokepoints instead of the usual endless web of city roads in a 360 degree circle.
Freedom of Travel is a well established right within the US and the only legal provisions for infringing on it are in the context of foreign invasion, which a disease is definitely not. Quarantining people in the case of infectious diseases legally generally requires them to be proven to be infected or have come in direct contact with an infected person. Applying that sort of restriction to millions of people without any verified exposure is an extremely questionable leap. IE: its legal to quarantine specific individuals you know have been exposed. Its not legal to make a blanket quarantine targeting millions of people who may or may not have come in contact with it.
Legally speaking, the Shelter in Place orders in-effect in various states right now are almost certainly illegal and would not survive legal challenge.
All of the Shelter in place and quarantine orders really are relying on the willing compliance of everybody, because they are almost certainly not constitutional. Which is why in a lot of areas outside the major cities the cops aren't enforcing them.
I don't think a lot of this is true, depending.
a.) State quarantines are surely legal. The US doesn't have "Freedom of Travel" at all, not spelled out the way you are thinking. The 14th amendment allows for the privileges and immunities of citizens, which has been interpreted as a right to interstate travel... but also has the words "without due process" attached to them. A lawfully declared quarantine by the state IS due process, constitutionally.
b.) States usually have specific quarantine laws on the books. Both NY state and NYC specifically have a handful that clearly would apply to this situation - ref N.Y. Public Health Law § 2100, but there are actually several that would apply.
c.) A federal quarantine is surely NOT legal. The CDC can detain people reasonable suspected of carrying contagion, but of course that can be challenge and would never work for 9 million people.
Interestingly, there was a brief period where a federal quarantine WOULD have been totally legal, although complex: the insurrection act was briefly re-written in 2006 to allow federal troops to be used to: "restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency". This was rewritten back out a year later.
You're right that shelter-in-place really relies upon voluntary compliance, because lol, you can't jail 9 million people - which is a bad idea even if you could - and surely not when the NYPD themselves are also on fire with Covid.
No idea why Cuomo believes it wouldn't be legally enforceable. They're in a state of medical emergency and drawing on various wartime laws to deal with it. Physically doing quarantining a city seems far more difficult, and NYC is one of the easiest cities in the country to block off, with bridges and chokepoints instead of the usual endless web of city roads in a 360 degree circle.
Freedom of Travel is a well established right within the US and the only legal provisions for infringing on it are in the context of foreign invasion, which a disease is definitely not. Quarantining people in the case of infectious diseases legally generally requires them to be proven to be infected or have come in direct contact with an infected person. Applying that sort of restriction to millions of people without any verified exposure is an extremely questionable leap. IE: its legal to quarantine specific individuals you know have been exposed. Its not legal to make a blanket quarantine targeting millions of people who may or may not have come in contact with it.
Legally speaking, the Shelter in Place orders in-effect in various states right now are almost certainly illegal and would not survive legal challenge.
All of the Shelter in place and quarantine orders really are relying on the willing compliance of everybody, because they are almost certainly not constitutional. Which is why in a lot of areas outside the major cities the cops aren't enforcing them.
I don't think a lot of this is true, depending.
a.) State quarantines are surely legal. The US doesn't have "Freedom of Travel" at all, not spelled out the way you are thinking. The 14th amendment allows for the privileges and immunities of citizens, which has been interpreted as a right to interstate travel... but also has the words "without due process" attached to them. A lawfully declared quarantine by the state IS due process, constitutionally.
b.) States usually have specific quarantine laws on the books. Both NY state and NYC specifically have a handful that clearly would apply to this situation - ref N.Y. Public Health Law § 2100, but there are actually several that would apply.
c.) A federal quarantine is surely NOT legal. The CDC can detain people reasonable suspected of carrying contagion, but of course that can be challenge and would never work for 9 million people.
Interestingly, there was a brief period where a federal quarantine WOULD have been totally legal, although complex: the insurrection act was briefly re-written in 2006 to allow federal troops to be used to: "restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency". This was rewritten back out a year later.
You're right that shelter-in-place really relies upon voluntary compliance, because lol, you can't jail 9 million people - which is a bad idea even if you could - and surely not when the NYPD themselves are also on fire with Covid.
Im willing to bet that A States are only going to try an enforce against the worse jackholes and B if they try and enforce penalties after this is all "over" you may see a case make it to the supreme court because different appellate courts will come down on different sides of the argument
Is this an intentional misreading aimed at people who won't bother reading the article? What you posted clearly indicates NYS 2100 does what I said it did, and furthermore the lawyer's article includes it specifically under broad powers of quarantine. Where he disagrees is functionally that any wide-scale quarantine - NYS or otherwise - is generally legally defensible. Saying applying that law as a quarantine is a stretch is bizarre at best - he has 6 or 7 NY based statutes he could have gone with as an example and picked that one as one of the most clear.
So far as who is right, well, I don't think widespread state-based quarantines have generally been implemented, so as such not litigated much, so I think we'll have to see if and when. For it to actually make to to the Supreme Court means this is going to have to hang on for a while and get much worse that it currently is. Which, who knows?
It seems reasonable to ask people to quarantine if coming from an epicenter of infection... not sure why that's causing such a ruckus. Definitely better to be implemented at a state level, though, imo, which is what Rhode Island is doing...
It's an American attitude problem....or...quirk, maybe?. We tend, as a group, to see every little restriction on us as chafing or conspiratory.
Sometimes a national mindset like that is good, sometimes bad. The problem with something largely invisible like a virus is the constant need for fearful people to look for some focal point for blame, to establish something definite in a nebulous situation. All I know is that things are getting severely worrisome here in the US, because everything seems like such a clusterfeth and us people at ground-level in our houses can really only be reactionary.
Well a few states are starting, for lack of words, forcing quarantine (14 days) on anyone from another State flying. Heard something stupid, which I kind of agree, that people from out of states who swoops into another state cannot buy from grocery stores and others to that effect. I cannot confirm.
All semi truck drivers are being screened at the entry point of bases and they do cross state lines and go into effected area. They start going corona then military 88 series might be next, just a word. That possibly includes USMC Med Tactical drivers...just saying
Is this an intentional misreading aimed at people who won't bother reading the article? What you posted clearly indicates NYS 2100 does what I said it did, and furthermore the lawyer's article includes it specifically under broad powers of quarantine. Where he disagrees is functionally that any wide-scale quarantine - NYS or otherwise - is generally legally defensible. Saying applying that law as a quarantine is a stretch is bizarre at best - he has 6 or 7 NY based statutes he could have gone with as an example and picked that one as one of the most clear.
So far as who is right, well, I don't think widespread state-based quarantines have generally been implemented, so as such not litigated much, so I think we'll have to see if and when. For it to actually make to to the Supreme Court means this is going to have to hang on for a while and get much worse that it currently is. Which, who knows?
Either me and you are miscommunicating sice you seemed to imply 2100 allowed broad based quarantine, or you are misreading.
He states quite clearly that
A You can quarnatine only indivduals that are believed to have the virus and even that requires a magistrate.
B it requires due process that "requires a right to notice, representation by counsel, a hearing, and prompt judicial review"
C That despite you poopooing it earlier "the “right to travel” both within and between states is a “fundamental personal right” under the Constitution"
@RiTides, I agree nothing wrong with requesting, just a question of what does the government have the legal authority to do. Heck I haven't left the house in almost 2 weeks and that was a special circumstance.
@ Aegis There's a legitimate concern that government has a habit of expanding its authorities during extreme circumstances then continue using those powers where they shouldn't really apply, but I don't want to go too far down that rabbit hole since it could turn partisan quick, so ask me when you have good reason, sure I'm all in. Order me to when you dont have the authority, long walk, short pier.
@ Jihadin yeah my sister's a truck driver, between that and my son who works in a hospital, no Im not really a fan of those breaking voluntary quarantine for recreational activities
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Kilkrazy wrote: A British man who spat at police and claimed to be infected has been jailed for a year.
WTH is wrong with people, what was he convicted of ? Assault or some terrorist threat related crime ?
Well, this study claims that 100% usage in Czechoslovakia "flattened" the growth of CoVid, in just ten days. The government made it compulsory to wear a mask -- or scarf, and DIY from old-tshirts counted. Besides preventing people from touching their faces, the masks may have prevented transmission by reducing spread from those who had the virus, but were not aware of it, as the virus shows no symptoms in its early stages.
I haven't found rates of transmission with DIY masks, but I'm sure they're worse than face masks but better than nothing -- or even as good as face masks when it comes to avoiding touching one's face.
"Dr. Frank Esper, a pediatric infectious disease specialist at the Cleveland Clinic, explained the circumstances when some really sick people should wear a mask. ... "If they are coughing, if they are feeling like they have symptoms, we do ask them to put on mask when they are coming to our waiting room or ER or into a public space," he said. "It helps prevent the spread of infection."
Following the SARS virus outbreak in the early 2000s, which also originated in China, researchers in Australia wanted to test data that suggested transmission of the viral respiratory infection could be reduced with the use of face masks as well as other infection control measures. ... The study, published in the International Journal of Infectious Diseases in 2008, found that masks were 80% effective in protecting against clinical influenza-like illness when worn consistently — but there was a catch. The researchers noted that "compliance with mask use was less than 50%," meaning more than half the people in the study did not actually keep wearing them as directed."
Masks -- including scarves and DIY -- protect you by keeping you from touching your face. You can wear glasses or sunglasses to protect your eyes. Masks prevent OTHERS from catching the virus. I doubt there will be a UK or USA mandate like Czechoslavakia, but that doesn't mean you can't wear a mask if you, unfortunately, have the virus but have not shown symptoms yet. Amazon still sells cheap plastic gloves you can wear outside the car when touching public surfaces, such as door handles.
Is this an intentional misreading aimed at people who won't bother reading the article? What you posted clearly indicates NYS 2100 does what I said it did, and furthermore the lawyer's article includes it specifically under broad powers of quarantine. Where he disagrees is functionally that any wide-scale quarantine - NYS or otherwise - is generally legally defensible. Saying applying that law as a quarantine is a stretch is bizarre at best - he has 6 or 7 NY based statutes he could have gone with as an example and picked that one as one of the most clear.
So far as who is right, well, I don't think widespread state-based quarantines have generally been implemented, so as such not litigated much, so I think we'll have to see if and when. For it to actually make to to the Supreme Court means this is going to have to hang on for a while and get much worse that it currently is. Which, who knows?
Either me and you are miscommunicating sice you seemed to imply 2100 allowed broad based quarantine, or you are misreading.
He states quite clearly that
A You can quarnatine only indivduals that are believed to have the virus and even that requires a magistrate.
B it requires due process that "requires a right to notice, representation by counsel, a hearing, and prompt judicial review"
C That despite you poopooing it earlier "the “right to travel” both within and between states is a “fundamental personal right” under the Constitution"
Indeed. The orders are too broad and have not actually given anyone affected by them due process.
I certainly didn’t get a court hearing for my shelter in place and there is no proof I have been exposed or not.
WTH is wrong with people, what was he convicted of ? Assault or some terrorist threat related crime ?
Newspapers say that it was two convictions of assault, the one that landed him in custody and the second when he spat on police. I didn't spot if they declared which was the greater conviction, though in light of the current atmosphere I'd wager the corona one might have carried more weight.
Though I suspect there weren't any major new powers required for that save for adding Corona virus under some of the same legislation that HIV/AIDs is under because that's also been done where people spit on police and try to use infection as a weapon. Heck some police forces even use these bubble like covers that they throw over peoples heads so that they can't spit.
Kilkrazy wrote: A British man who spat at police and claimed to be infected has been jailed for a year.
WTH is wrong with people, what was he convicted of ? Assault or some terrorist threat related crime ?
A few people in the states have done similar things. Spitting is already covered under Assault and claiming you are infected could also carry various charges related to making threats.
WTH is wrong with people, what was he convicted of ? Assault or some terrorist threat related crime ?
Newspapers say that it was two convictions of assault, the one that landed him in custody and the second when he spat on police. I didn't spot if they declared which was the greater conviction, though in light of the current atmosphere I'd wager the corona one might have carried more weight.
Though I suspect there weren't any major new powers required for that save for adding Corona virus under some of the same legislation that HIV/AIDs is under because that's also been done where people spit on police and try to use infection as a weapon. Heck some police forces even use these bubble like covers that they throw over peoples heads so that they can't spit.
Thanks and yeah I would say getting sick with this plague would count as serious bodily harm.
Kilkrazy wrote: A British man who spat at police and claimed to be infected has been jailed for a year.
WTH is wrong with people, what was he convicted of ? Assault or some terrorist threat related crime ?
A few people in the states have done similar things. Spitting is already covered under Assault and claiming you are infected could also carry various charges related to making threats.
Yeah I've seen some of the cases here and they usually jump to terroristic threats, which is why I was interested in how our cousins across the pond were treating it.
Checked the last few pages and didn't see it, but the CDC *now* says that masks do help. Current recommendation is for the elderly and high-risk.
"NEW: CDC guidance on masks expected to change in next 10 days. Americans will be advised to wear masks in everyday life. Current recommendation is for high-risk groups only."
Saturday at work was a lot less stressful with the shutters down. I was half expecting people to knock on the back door or peer into the office windows though. Thankfully I was proved wrong
Still no word on who is getting furloughed. But nearly all the trades are closing there doors this weekend or Monday so there wont be much point to opening. I suppose the worst case scenario is I have to sit in the office, drink tea, listen to Six Music and play games on my phone all day.
Vaktathi wrote: Nobody is really putting too much effort into enforcing them to be fair, I can walk around town I want all day and I'm not going to get asked for my papers. Thus far, the only enforcement I've seen is shutting down of large gatherings and slapping additional charges on people doing stupid stuff that already had generated large rap sheets
That said, there doesn't appear to be too much significant enforcement needed, people do appear to mostly generally be voluntarily adhering to the restrictions.
Same here, which incidentally is gerat for once seeing the people working together for the most part.
Here as well, from what I have seen.
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ced1106 wrote: Checked the last few pages and didn't see it, but the CDC *now* says that masks do help. Current recommendation is for the elderly and high-risk.
"NEW: CDC guidance on masks expected to change in next 10 days. Americans will be advised to wear masks in everyday life. Current recommendation is for high-risk groups only."
ced1106 wrote: Checked the last few pages and didn't see it, but the CDC *now* says that masks do help. Current recommendation is for the elderly and high-risk.
"NEW: CDC guidance on masks expected to change in next 10 days. Americans will be advised to wear masks in everyday life. Current recommendation is for high-risk groups only."
Jerram wrote: @RiTides, I agree nothing wrong with requesting, just a question of what does the government have the legal authority to do. Heck I haven't left the house in almost 2 weeks and that was a special circumstance.
@ Aegis There's a legitimate concern that government has a habit of expanding its authorities during extreme circumstances then continue using those powers where they shouldn't really apply, but I don't want to go too far down that rabbit hole since it could turn partisan quick, so ask me when you have good reason, sure I'm all in. Order me to when you dont have the authority, long walk, short pier.
@ Jihadin yeah my sister's a truck driver, between that and my son who works in a hospital, no Im not really a fan of those breaking voluntary quarantine for recreational activities
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Kilkrazy wrote: A British man who spat at police and claimed to be infected has been jailed for a year.
WTH is wrong with people, what was he convicted of ? Assault or some terrorist threat related crime ?
They introduced a new law (or was it tweeked an existing one) making it a crime to threaten people with corona virus after several nasty pieces of work claiming to be infected coughed and spat at police during other interactions/arrests, so this is obviously the first use of the new law
maliciously spitting at someone should be a more serious offence anyway..god knows what people could have got in this day and age..plus its just straight foul. throw a punch, dont spit like an absolute creature.
Jerram wrote: @RiTides, I agree nothing wrong with requesting, just a question of what does the government have the legal authority to do. Heck I haven't left the house in almost 2 weeks and that was a special circumstance.
@ Aegis There's a legitimate concern that government has a habit of expanding its authorities during extreme circumstances then continue using those powers where they shouldn't really apply, but I don't want to go too far down that rabbit hole since it could turn partisan quick, so ask me when you have good reason, sure I'm all in. Order me to when you dont have the authority, long walk, short pier.
@ Jihadin yeah my sister's a truck driver, between that and my son who works in a hospital, no Im not really a fan of those breaking voluntary quarantine for recreational activities
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: A British man who spat at police and claimed to be infected has been jailed for a year.
WTH is wrong with people, what was he convicted of ? Assault or some terrorist threat related crime ?
They introduced a new law (or was it tweeked an existing one) making it a crime to threaten people with corona virus after several nasty pieces of work claiming to be infected coughed and spat at police during other interactions/arrests, so this is obviously the first use of the new law
They introduced some changes to legislation. But was already covered under assault laws in the UK specifically common assault (I think).
In the US, as was mentioned earlier, this would be considered transmitting a terroristic threat. Kind of surprised you didn't already have something on the books already.
Ouze wrote: In the US, as was mentioned earlier, this would be considered transmitting a terroristic threat. Kind of surprised you didn't already have something on the books already.
We've been hearing of the re-infections for at least a week and don't seem to be getting any closer to an answer at present. It seems to be a mix of trying to work out if its real re-infection or if the tests have an error margin that is clearing people who are not yet clear.
It also raises the question of test accuracy which is a big concern since if the test might potentially result in clear for 10% or so of people who have the disease then that's a significant portion of a population who might resume normal life to a degree considering themselves "clean" and thus going home/visiting "clean" family etc...
As for the USA situation that's no surprise. For once Trumps bluster is going to be purely just that. Heck I'd be surprised if the UK can give up by the 30th and far as I'm aware we are further along than the USA (ish given that its not actually a purely linear progression nor a "race" as such)
Well, I mostly posted that because I suspect major employers will take their cues for reopening from guidance from the federal government. Without getting into the political weeds, lets just stipulate Easter was... premature and leave it there.
The test has a high false negative rate due ( at least partly) to user error . The wife works on a Itu ward , apparently they are sometimes testing patients that are obviously coved positive up to 3 times before getting a positive result .
I’ve seen a video on how to do the test and it looks difficult , especially if your patient isn’t unconscious . It’s also in no way a normal test method and they have had no training in how to do it ( the video was one she found herself on the internet) . So you will have literally thousands of hospital staff taking swabs in the normal , incorrect fashion
From what I've read of the "reinfection", there are a lot of possible explanations (initial or subsequent false positive, residual rna of the virus causing a positive result even if clear, inaccurate tests, etc). Dr. Fauci recently stated how confident he is that people who have been infected are strongly protected against the virus, and that it should behave like any other in that regard.
All that to say, I think that's one thing at least that people should not stress over. It needs studies to confirm, of course, but probabilities are massively on the side of normal immunity.
I don't use Twitter so someone who does please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears the actual CDC responded to this and said this is not true.
Okay, good to know. Not that you can get mask (or not make one yourself) in ten days, anyway.
*****
"A 19-year-old Italian chef has died after a doctor reportedly told him he had ‘nothing to worry about’, with his family suspecting coronavirus played a part in his death. ... They believe he may have had Covid-19, although this has not yet been confirmed by medics and the family say they are awaiting post-mortem swab results. ... The doctor visited him at home and told him that he was young, strong and that he didn’t have to worry about that bad flu.’
https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/29/healthy-chef-19-dies-suspected-coronavirus-case-12475790/?ITO=squi
Ouze wrote: ...and some of you will still have unpainted minis.
Thanks. I needed that
What ever state official yelling about the ventilators not working. Its military owned so its Mil Spec. Those are the coupling and connecters (quick disconnects). I read somewhere that a Anathesiologist (sp) has like 9 patients hooked to one.
Not sure if this was mention. The virus can be dormant and I think, last I heard, it has mutated 4 times now?
Ouze wrote: ...and some of you will still have unpainted minis.
Thanks. I needed that
What ever state official yelling about the ventilators not working. Its military owned so its Mil Spec. Those are the coupling and connecters (quick disconnects). I read somewhere that a Anathesiologist (sp) has like 9 patients hooked to one.
Not sure if this was mention. The virus can be dormant and I think, last I heard, it has mutated 4 times now?
Where did you hear/read that?
Here's some links on what people are seeing so far:
That's an impressive feat - but let's hope it doesn't come down to that for many - or even any! Though I fear it might yet.
I keep hearing that the challenge in 'splitting' a ventilator is that a patient on one often needs to utilize customized settings, and I'm not sure how possible that will be on split machines...
I think it was a good move. Its an old drug with well known side effects and low inherent risk as a result. If it works, then great, if it turns out that the lack of controlled study resulted in misleading outcomes for patients then oh well, chances are we haven't done anymore harm by attempting to treat people with it (then again, a friend of mine who is a medical professional rightly pointed out that Chloroquine and related are actually immunosuppressive and there is high risk that using it will open the door for worse effects, so I guess we'll see what happens?)
timetowaste85 wrote: Sounds like Trump is considering locking down NY, NJ and parts of CT. As somebody who lives near the NY border and in the obvious quarantine area...good. It should be locked down. I would happily follow a 2 week, don’t leave the house, quarantine if it was helpful. The fact that people can’t seem to handle that is the reason this spreads.
According to cell phone data, it seems that NYC/NJ/CT residents are currently the least active (i.e. the most likely to stay indoors and limit travels, etc.) and most likely to be following distancing protocols. Thats downright scary to me given how many people I see out and about just not "getting it". I suspect some of it might have to do with the fact that the region is generally "denser" and people don't have to travel as far on average to do what they need to do, so even though people are out and about the cell phone data is still showing them as traveling less than someone in, say, Kansas where the local supermarket may be a 30 minute drive down the highway.
Its several days too late. It still needs to be done, but Cuomo should have taken this measure earlier- people were fleeing the city in large numbers last weekend, meaning an unknown number of infected headed to unknown locations. Its one of the worst possible (and most predictable) things people do in epidemics, and makes the whole situation worse, as it jumpstarts the infection cycle in new locations.
Yep. It's probably too late for it to make a difference, but it should still be done. It should also be maintained long-term, not just for the protection of the rest of the country, but for the protection of these states as well. A large number of states are still not taking action against the virus, some of them will become hotspots themselves in time. NJ/NYC/CT can't risk reinfection because someone from Indiana decided it would be really cool to take advantage of cheap travel rates and tour NYC and carry the virus back into town with them once everything is under control. Don't even get me started about the reports of megachurches in Florida and Louisiana rounding up their congregations for Sunday mass. It was a horrible idea when that church in South Korea did it, its a horrible idea when they do it too.
No idea why Cuomo believes it wouldn't be legally enforceable. They're in a state of medical emergency and drawing on various wartime laws to deal with it. Physically doing quarantining a city seems far more difficult, and NYC is one of the easiest cities in the country to block off, with bridges and chokepoints instead of the usual endless web of city roads in a 360 degree circle.
That depends on what part of NYC you're referring to. Manhattan and Staten Island are pretty easy, Queens and Brooklyn a bit less so as its still easy to get out into Long Island (unless you're including it in the quarantine area) and catch a ferry out to CT or RI. The Bronx is on the "mainland" still a limited number of routes that people can take but its a very dense area and you'd need to dedicate serious manpower to enforcing a blockade.
It's an American attitude problem....or...quirk, maybe?. We tend, as a group, to see every little restriction on us as chafing or conspiratory.
Sometimes a national mindset like that is good, sometimes bad. The problem with something largely invisible like a virus is the constant need for fearful people to look for some focal point for blame, to establish something definite in a nebulous situation. All I know is that things are getting severely worrisome here in the US, because everything seems like such a clusterfeth and us people at ground-level in our houses can really only be reactionary.
If the illness was disfiguring or the symptoms were more obviously visible and unique somehow, you can bet people would be taking this a lot more seriously and much more willing to be compliant with stricter actions to control movement.
That's an impressive feat - but let's hope it doesn't come down to that for many - or even any! Though I fear it might yet.
I keep hearing that the challenge in 'splitting' a ventilator is that a patient on one often needs to utilize customized settings, and I'm not sure how possible that will be on split machines...
Pretty sure something like that (blue print, diagram, instructions, whatever) making its way around all medical facilities across the world. Something like that though it seriously has to be monitored 24/7. Still though. That guy needs the Nobel for pulling that off
Edit
I be back on tomorrow to post updates on whatever I think is not rumored or third to forth party. We start 12 hrs shift tomorrow
It's being trialled in London hospitals, and will go into mass production in a week, if it performs well. Mercedes will manufacture 1,000 machines a day.
Its not a new respirator as far as I'm aware, just regular CPAP machines. theyre just smashing them out super quick. at least thats what I got from the BBC news this morning.
It's been re-engineered for mass production, from an out of patent old design. So it's not a new principle, but it's a new improvement of the principle.
In related news, a group including Airbus have another machine ready to go when it gets approval.
When I think about it, the government should have commssioned Dyson to produce pressurised protective equipment for intensive care staff. All he needs to do is take a battery powered hoover, upgrade the filter, and make a tube to link the output to a diver's helmet.
I don’t think I can stick this job out. The stress is too much. It’s not even so much all the extra work and precautions we have to take...it’s my bloody new coworker I’ve found myself lumped with. He’s maddening. And the general public aren’t helping matters either. I know it’s an important service and you should take what money you can at the moment but still...
Future War Cultist wrote: I don’t think I can stick this job out. The stress is too much. It’s not even so much all the extra work and precautions we have to take...it’s my bloody new coworker I’ve found myself lumped with. He’s maddening. And the general public aren’t helping matters either. I know it’s an important service and you should take what money you can at the moment but still...
Encouraging news from France then. If risks are low and recovery times cut nearly in half that makes a huge difference to the potential for the volume of patients the hospital system can cope with over a period of time.
Future War Cultist wrote: I don’t think I can stick this job out. The stress is too much. It’s not even so much all the extra work and precautions we have to take...it’s my bloody new coworker I’ve found myself lumped with. He’s maddening. And the general public aren’t helping matters either. I know it’s an important service and you should take what money you can at the moment but still...
I’ve tried talking to him...but I might as well be talking to my van. He’s constantly hovering around me while I’m working, telling me what to do, how to do it, so much so he keeps fething up his own work whilst getting in the way of mine. Also, he’s not captain obvious...he’s major general fething obvious. No banter either...literally all work...with that fething stupid smile on his face...
He’s...got something wrong with him...he’s very robotic...he never deviates from his pre determined route or script. No matter how many times I tell him that I’ve worked here longer than him, that I’m more trained than him, that this route is in my home neighbourhood, and to stop fething coming closer than 2 feet to me it just literally goes in one ear and out the other. He’s infamous amongst the rest of us as a ‘nice guy...but also a total pain in the ass’.
It’s been 4 days now, and with everything else that’s going on at the moment my brain is melted. They need to work out some sort of rotation system or something because I can’t much more of this.
Future War Cultist wrote: I don’t think I can stick this job out. The stress is too much. It’s not even so much all the extra work and precautions we have to take...it’s my bloody new coworker I’ve found myself lumped with. He’s maddening. And the general public aren’t helping matters either. I know it’s an important service and you should take what money you can at the moment but still...
Have you talked to him?
You can't negotiate with stupid.
Disagree, mostly because it depends on the form said stupid takes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Future War Cultist wrote: I’ve tried talking to him...but I might as well be talking to my van. He’s constantly hovering around me while I’m working, telling me what to do, how to do it, so much so he keeps fething up his own work whilst getting in the way of mine. Also, he’s not captain obvious...he’s major general fething obvious. No banter either...literally all work...with that fething stupid smile on his face...
He’s...got something wrong with him...he’s very robotic...he never deviates from his pre determined route or script. No matter how many times I tell him that I’ve worked here longer than him, that I’m more trained than him, that this route is in my home neighbourhood, and to stop fething coming closer than 2 feet to me it just literally goes in one ear and out the other. He’s infamous amongst the rest of us as a ‘nice guy...but also a total pain in the ass’.
It’s been 4 days now, and with everything else that’s going on at the moment my brain is melted. They need to work out some sort of rotation system or something because I can’t much more of this.
oof.
My condolences, yeah i'd talk to your direct superior or collegues if a rotation system would be better with that person.
In the positive news bracket, I have really enjoyed both of the NASCAR iRacing Pro Invitational races they have broadcast the last couple of weekends. Its amazing to me to see how things are adapting to this situation and to say this is a leap forward for both gaming and NASCAR is an understatement.
The fact that NASCAR is treating it like a regular race with someone singing the anthem, a marshal, same broadcasters etc is fantastic and, while I am not a huge NASCAR fan, I have found myself actually looking forward to the races and scheduling them in to my weekend routine.
I know its not everyone's cup of tea, especially the die hard NASCAR fans, but its very well done for what it is and the iRacing software is staggeringly realistic.
Anyway, if you haven't seen them, check them out, they are loads of fun
Sorry to hear that FWC, but the minimum distance thing at least seems like something you could ask management about? Like, if it's needed that's one thing, but if it's not then that's obviously not okay in the present environment.
Hell yeah. I'd be well up for driving deliveries for a bit. although I've heard of some very unreasonable businesses not letting the delivery drivers use the bathrooms after deliveries and other such nonsense.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Hell yeah. I'd be well up for driving deliveries for a bit. although I've heard of some very unreasonable businesses not letting the delivery drivers use the bathrooms after deliveries and other such nonsense.
In fairness its a bit daft to have everyone self isolating and then at the end of the day all go and use the same public facilities. It's just begging for one person to slip the net and then infect the whole driver team/depo
I just dont think letting a delivery driver or 2 into your bathroom is really going to spread the virus. I mean, personally I wouldnt really care, I'd just go outside on the back wall of your establishment.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Hell yeah. I'd be well up for driving deliveries for a bit. although I've heard of some very unreasonable businesses not letting the delivery drivers use the bathrooms after deliveries and other such nonsense.
In fairness its a bit daft to have everyone self isolating and then at the end of the day all go and use the same public facilities. It's just begging for one person to slip the net and then infect the whole driver team/depo
Yeah but its more like letting a delivery driver or or several dozen use the facilities Along with the warehouse team and office team and managers and loaders etc....
The headline doesn't really match what actually happened either. He took a break from making his 'necklace' (to alert people to face touching, not 'fight the virus'), and was screwing around with the magnets and stuck them up his nose, and was surprised when they attached themselves firmly across his septum.
Given his next attempt was to try to dig them out with pliers, it could have ended very badly...
RiTides wrote: Sorry to hear that FWC, but the minimum distance thing at least seems like something you could ask management about? Like, if it's needed that's one thing, but if it's not then that's obviously not okay in the present environment.
RiTides wrote: Sorry to hear that FWC, but the minimum distance thing at least seems like something you could ask management about? Like, if it's needed that's one thing, but if it's not then that's obviously not okay in the present environment.
So...did you get your test results back yet?
Not yet - 7 to 10 day turn around (and they didn't specify if it was business days, and I didn't really get a chance to ask as they were obviously pretty swamped). I'm assuming calendar days, so it should be late this week hopefully in that case.
RiTides wrote: Sorry to hear that FWC, but the minimum distance thing at least seems like something you could ask management about? Like, if it's needed that's one thing, but if it's not then that's obviously not okay in the present environment.
So...did you get your test results back yet?
Not yet - 7 to 10 day turn around (and they didn't specify if it was business days, and I didn't really get a chance to ask as they were obviously pretty swamped). I'm assuming calendar days, so it should be late this week hopefully in that case.
We're really going to have to work on that lag time in this country if we're really going to get a handle on things...
So, how are your symptoms doing? How are you feeling?
How are you handling quarantining yourself from your family, who are already quarantined?
Yeah, those kind of delays kinda undermine the whole point of testing. There are quick, point-of-care tests coming, though. But I hazard to guess it'll be some weeks before they're readily available.
Future War Cultist wrote: I don’t think I can stick this job out. The stress is too much. It’s not even so much all the extra work and precautions we have to take...it’s my bloody new coworker I’ve found myself lumped with. He’s maddening. And the general public aren’t helping matters either. I know it’s an important service and you should take what money you can at the moment but still...
Future War Cultist wrote: I don’t think I can stick this job out. The stress is too much. It’s not even so much all the extra work and precautions we have to take...it’s my bloody new coworker I’ve found myself lumped with. He’s maddening. And the general public aren’t helping matters either. I know it’s an important service and you should take what money you can at the moment but still...
Have you talked to him?
You can't negotiate with stupid.
Disagree, .
See?
See, as in cheapshot, or see as in regards to his own comment about his co-worker.
We got our first brace of furlough notices today. Seems I'm to important to send home for a min of three weeks. I guess that's a compliment? Manager reckons its just the first wave though.
The great British public still continues to disappoint unfortunately. Add L-plates(who the heck is having lessons during a lockdown?) and glue to fix a shoe rail(why go to a care spares shop?) to the list of essential items
I am SOOO tired of people buying stuff that doesnt really help or are buying it and not using it properly.
Yeah, Rubbing Alchohol kills the virus, but Cmon people you dont need it or to stock up on it, just wash your hands. I need it for airbrushing
I dont know why people are panic buying nail polish remover....but I cant find it.
And masks, particularly painting masks/respirators. Im not sure on the specifics, but im pretty sure the masks, especially particulate masks which i need for airbrushing, are not gonna help you and you will look stupid
Stop being selfish, buy what is reasonable and dont be a moron.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I am SOOO tired of people buying stuff that doesnt really help or are buying it and not using it properly.
Yeah, Rubbing Alchohol kills the virus, but Cmon people you dont need it or to stock up on it, just wash your hands. I need it for airbrushing
I dont know why people are panic buying nail polish remover....but I cant find it.
And masks, particularly painting masks/respirators. Im not sure on the specifics, but im pretty sure the masks, especially particulate masks which i need for airbrushing, are not gonna help you and you will look stupid
Stop being selfish, buy what is reasonable and dont be a moron.
Eh...you might lack a certain perspective there, just a bit.
Anyway, hand sanitizer (and/or alcohol that you can use to make your own) is handy for those times when you're not able to immediately (or even 'soon') wash your hands.
And masks 'for airbrushing' are probably lower on the list then masks for...just about anything else health and safety related.
I mean, you can't possibly know what people are buying these things for - or if they're 'hoarding' them or not?
Or maybe they're all just airbrushing fans, like yourself.
Well it looks like they are one step closer to figuring out how this Corona virus got into people in the first place, it looks to have started off in Bats, but is probably too different to have made the jump to people in one go,
enter the Pangolin, the endangered little anteater with the cool looking scales which are in high demand for 'traditional' Chinese medicine
hopefully the Chinese government (and other countries) will crack down even harder on the trafficers
hotsauceman1 wrote: I am SOOO tired of people buying stuff that doesnt really help or are buying it and not using it properly.
Yeah, Rubbing Alchohol kills the virus, but Cmon people you dont need it or to stock up on it, just wash your hands. I need it for airbrushing
I dont know why people are panic buying nail polish remover....but I cant find it.
And masks, particularly painting masks/respirators. Im not sure on the specifics, but im pretty sure the masks, especially particulate masks which i need for airbrushing, are not gonna help you and you will look stupid
Stop being selfish, buy what is reasonable and dont be a moron.
Eh...you might lack a certain perspective there, just a bit.
Anyway, hand sanitizer (and/or alcohol that you can use to make your own) is handy for those times when you're not able to immediately (or even 'soon') wash your hands.
And masks 'for airbrushing' are probably lower on the list then masks for...just about anything else health and safety related.
I mean, you can't possibly know what people are buying these things for - or if they're 'hoarding' them or not?
Or maybe they're all just airbrushing fans, like yourself.
That is true, and i will admit im a little selfish in my thinking, but people are buying stuff in way more than what they need it seems.
My favourite part wasn't even the magnets up the nose, it was this:
However, the academic realised the electronic part he had did the opposite – and would only complete a circuit when there was no magnetic field present.
“I accidentally invented a necklace that buzzes continuously unless you move your hand close to your face,” he said.
Just so perfect that he would overlook that and end up making the complete opposite of what he intended
Guam is going to be hard hit it appears with the Roosevelt there. No one from the ship is allowed off the pier. Yet there are single digit confirm cases among the general population. We're using daily/ring route flights there to ship in gear and stuff.
Camelbacks are a major shipping item now. Save your plastic water and jug containers. Don't go out and buy couple hundred pound of water FFS. Since some of us drank from a water buffalo we're immune (joke). Summer around the corner so google chlorine/water ratio just incase. the 1149 shipping document that was used they actually stated in reason "water contamination". 2K camelbacks to San Diego. Basically its a CYA. I haven't heard of the virus surviving in water.
Italy south is insane asylum think everyone knows. All US Military flights are routed to Viecienza to be flown out to Naples and Signeollawhatever. Azores Island holding firm.
Not sure I mention this already. All military installations with a chem lab making hand sanitizers for the US Military. So we don't buy off the market. Smell alone will get you .08 on BAC.
They are literally screening our drivers if they gone over 50 miles. Some had a fever so no access, some denied entry due to felony, and some just didn't have the right documentation. Was an issue this morning but a carrier we use has stepped in and actually hired damn near a medical team that screen the drivers before they even attempt to make our gate. There's a backup driver if needed there on the spot (he's looking up to five drivers on standby). Also he hired, I gak you not, a carpet cleaning team to nuke sanitize the driver carpartment before new driver goes in it. One crafty Ukrainian and we love him. He even maintain his own rates. So expedited to San Dieago is lightly over 9K two day delivery. 5 day delivery to east coast like 14K. think FL is 17K. Hotshot so two drivers.
We're actually cponsidering a GLOC outside our gates
Rit. Don't take Motrin (Ibuprofin) till results are back
Two months they say its going to hit its peak. We call BS on that being its the end of allergy season. We figure six months to get an actual gage of the spread. Shop Talk basically but that's shooting the crap with the Corpmans
Our major concern is unemployment and how desperate people are going to get. As mention. People are stupid. People though get desperate and try to support their family. Be aware of that. Straight to the point on this. Don't kill the guy/gal on a B&E. Don't even involve the LEO's they other worse gak to deal with. If bad guy shoots first then by all means go at it but deescalate the situation and basically get the idiot out the building. Trust me. opting someone out of the game is not something you want to experience. This is 2020. Not the damn Wild West. Yes I open carry now as a deterrent but I've no desire to engage.
I'm seriously smoked physically and mentally burned out so pardon my spelling...and rant?
While California labels me essential, work decided we are not going back with the extension to the end of may.
Im scheduled for training for a special case along with 4 other coworkers. They are talking about possibly having us do it, but IDK.
Its just more training vids until then.
This is going to be the death of me.
British police been given a mild dressing down for being overly heavy handed while enforcing the lock down. Good to see in my opinion. Some of the things they've done are ridiculous.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I am SOOO tired of people buying stuff that doesnt really help or are buying it and not using it properly.
Yeah, Rubbing Alchohol kills the virus, but Cmon people you dont need it or to stock up on it, just wash your hands. I need it for airbrushing
I dont know why people are panic buying nail polish remover....but I cant find it.
And masks, particularly painting masks/respirators. Im not sure on the specifics, but im pretty sure the masks, especially particulate masks which i need for airbrushing, are not gonna help you and you will look stupid
Stop being selfish, buy what is reasonable and dont be a moron.
Eh...you might lack a certain perspective there, just a bit.
Anyway, hand sanitizer (and/or alcohol that you can use to make your own) is handy for those times when you're not able to immediately (or even 'soon') wash your hands.
And masks 'for airbrushing' are probably lower on the list then masks for...just about anything else health and safety related.
I mean, you can't possibly know what people are buying these things for - or if they're 'hoarding' them or not?
Or maybe they're all just airbrushing fans, like yourself.
That is true, and i will admit im a little selfish in my thinking, but people are buying stuff in way more than what they need it seems.
Wait, this was a joke statement, right? I mean, you were being ironic. Because no sane human is that stuck up and selfish in a crisis like this. I have to assume you’re trying to be funny.
On a positive note...I’m going on paternity leave for 10 weeks while this is happening (furloughed at work being dropped to 60% of my paycheck, which is the same as paternity leave). So I’m freeing up my pay to allow my employer to pay people who don’t have this option and getting an identical paycheck to what I’d make at work during the virus. Being responsible as an employee, father, husband, and coworker to my peers. Plus, getting to take almost a quarter of the year off, combined with having worked from home for two weeks, and being financially stable and I’m set to ride this out (unless it proves to be unbeatable and the human race is screwed, in which case who cares).
If the later is the case, then i suggest we all invest collectivly into leather or scrap metal armor, stockpile bottlecaps and do our hair in wierd styles.
Well it looks like they are one step closer to figuring out how this Corona virus got into people in the first place, it looks to have started off in Bats, but is probably too different to have made the jump to people in one go,
enter the Pangolin, the endangered little anteater with the cool looking scales which are in high demand for 'traditional' Chinese medicine
hopefully the Chinese government (and other countries) will crack down even harder on the trafficers
It's not only animal traffickers, it's ALL animal agriculture that needs to get looked at. Pangolins don't transfer viruses because they're illegally trafficked. You can get rid of illegal animal trafficking but that only means the next pandemic will come from one of our own Western mega-pens where we keep 10.000+ animals on a way too small space.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: British police been given a mild dressing down for being overly heavy handed while enforcing the lock down. Good to see in my opinion. Some of the things they've done are ridiculous.
The dye in the water thing seemed..well.... beyond bizarre more than anything else.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: British police been given a mild dressing down for being overly heavy handed while enforcing the lock down. Good to see in my opinion. Some of the things they've done are ridiculous.
The dye in the water thing seemed..well.... beyond bizarre more than anything else.
This is how far back we have to put the swab to test you for #COVID19.
Spoiler:
ouch.
I've been swabbed somewhere else that felt that deep!
But the dye thing was just beyond the pail.. Talk about a waste of resources. Same with the flying drones over people walking, just an excuse for coppers to piss about with their toys. I know because that's what I would be doing. But there was video footage this morning of cops wandering about questioning dog walkers if they'd driven to that location and such. All I could see was 'present papers vor inspection'
If people are just walking on their own minding their own business, what's the problem?
However, Lord Sumption said the efforts to dissuade people from "travelling to take exercise in the open country" were excessive.
' He argued that such behaviours "are not contrary to the regulations simply because ministers have said that they would prefer us not to".
Lord Sumption continued: "The tradition of policing in this country is that policemen are citizens in uniform, they are not members of a disciplined hierarchy operating just at the government's command."
"The police have no power to enforce ministers' preferences but only legal regulations which don't go anything like as far as the government's guidance," he said.
"I have to say that the behaviour of Derbyshire Police in trying to shame people into using their undoubted right to travel to take exercise in the country and wrecking beauty spots in the fells so people don't want to go there is frankly disgraceful.'
Well it looks like they are one step closer to figuring out how this Corona virus got into people in the first place, it looks to have started off in Bats, but is probably too different to have made the jump to people in one go,
enter the Pangolin, the endangered little anteater with the cool looking scales which are in high demand for 'traditional' Chinese medicine
hopefully the Chinese government (and other countries) will crack down even harder on the trafficers
It's not only animal traffickers, it's ALL animal agriculture that needs to get looked at. Pangolins don't transfer viruses because they're illegally trafficked. You can get rid of illegal animal trafficking but that only means the next pandemic will come from one of our own Western mega-pens where we keep 10.000+ animals on a way too small space.
We've gotten most of our interesting diseases as a species when we domesticated animals. Now it's time for wave 2, when we encroach into territories of still wild species, and they move into ours for food or lack of space.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: British police been given a mild dressing down for being overly heavy handed while enforcing the lock down. Good to see in my opinion. Some of the things they've done are ridiculous.
The dye in the water thing seemed..well.... beyond bizarre more than anything else.
This is how far back we have to put the swab to test you for #COVID19.
[spoiler]
ouch.
I've been swabbed somewhere else that felt that deep!
But the dye thing was just beyond the pail.. Talk about a waste of resources. Same with the flying drones over people walking, just an excuse for coppers to piss about with their toys. I know because that's what I would be doing. But there was video footage this morning of cops wandering about questioning dog walkers if they'd driven to that location and such. All I could see was 'present papers vor inspection'
If people are just walking on their own minding their own business, what's the problem?
However, Lord Sumption said the efforts to dissuade people from "travelling to take exercise in the open country" were excessive.
' He argued that such behaviours "are not contrary to the regulations simply because ministers have said that they would prefer us not to".
Lord Sumption continued: "The tradition of policing in this country is that policemen are citizens in uniform, they are not members of a disciplined hierarchy operating just at the government's command."
"The police have no power to enforce ministers' preferences but only legal regulations which don't go anything like as far as the government's guidance," he said.
"I have to say that the behaviour of Derbyshire Police in trying to shame people into using their undoubted right to travel to take exercise in the country and wrecking beauty spots in the fells so people don't want to go there is frankly disgraceful.'
[/spoiler]
For a long time now I’ve seen British police as nothing but jumped up bullies looking for easy targets. But I don’t want to get into that.
Moving along, I’m hearing sources saying that the good old BCG could help in the fight against the virus because of its ability to act as a general immune system booster. I really hope that’s true. And I had no idea that it hasn’t been widely used since 2003!
queen_annes_revenge wrote: British police been given a mild dressing down for being overly heavy handed while enforcing the lock down. Good to see in my opinion. Some of the things they've done are ridiculous.
The dye in the water thing seemed..well.... beyond bizarre more than anything else.
This is how far back we have to put the swab to test you for #COVID19.
[spoiler]
ouch.
I've been swabbed somewhere else that felt that deep!
But the dye thing was just beyond the pail.. Talk about a waste of resources. Same with the flying drones over people walking, just an excuse for coppers to piss about with their toys. I know because that's what I would be doing. But there was video footage this morning of cops wandering about questioning dog walkers if they'd driven to that location and such. All I could see was 'present papers vor inspection'
If people are just walking on their own minding their own business, what's the problem?
However, Lord Sumption said the efforts to dissuade people from "travelling to take exercise in the open country" were excessive.
' He argued that such behaviours "are not contrary to the regulations simply because ministers have said that they would prefer us not to".
Lord Sumption continued: "The tradition of policing in this country is that policemen are citizens in uniform, they are not members of a disciplined hierarchy operating just at the government's command."
"The police have no power to enforce ministers' preferences but only legal regulations which don't go anything like as far as the government's guidance," he said.
"I have to say that the behaviour of Derbyshire Police in trying to shame people into using their undoubted right to travel to take exercise in the country and wrecking beauty spots in the fells so people don't want to go there is frankly disgraceful.'
[/spoiler]
For a long time now I’ve seen British police as nothing but jumped up bullies looking for easy targets. But I don’t want to get into that.
Moving along, I’m hearing sources saying that the good old BCG could help in the fight against the virus because of its ability to act as a general immune system booster. I really hope that’s true. And I had no idea that it hasn’t been widely used since 2003!
For a long time now I’ve seen British police as nothing but jumped up bullies looking for easy targets. But I don’t want to get into that.
They've been burdened with BS paperwork for years, and lately their focus seems to have been directed at policing people's attitudes and thoughts, so I figure now that they've been given something that they can actually do outside they've just jumped on it too hard.
For a long time now I’ve seen British police as nothing but jumped up bullies looking for easy targets. But I don’t want to get into that.
They've been burdened with BS paperwork for years, and lately their focus seems to have been directed at policing people's attitudes and thoughts, so I figure now that they've been given something that they can actually do outside they've just jumped on it too hard.
Good point. Though having said that, I accept that it can be a difficult juggling act enforcing social distancing.
I think its less the UK police wanting to bully and more then having to interpret basic government legislation changes on their own. Resulting in different interpretations - some stricter than others.
There might also be a bit of an element of letting the police work harder to start with to drive home the message then "reining them in" to relax measures a bit, but having had the initial effect of warning off many people already.
There's lots of elements at play, not to mention the fact that things are changing on a daily basis and some of the changes are quite large and not something people have trained nor prepared for on this kind of scale. So there's bound to be some confusion.
In some ways its better that there's a bit of overreaction that gets pulled in, as that only makes the situation (in theory) safer and reduces potential spread.
British police are saints compared to cops in the states. But I digress.
I had to break my self-quarantine to stock up yesterday. My state is in the rural West and not hard hit yet. The county closed schools and non-essential shops. However, everyone out and about was BAU. Not really following self-distancing (or basic hygiene) protocols any different than ever.
Stores were well stocked except for paper products, cleaning supplies, poultry, and rice. Everything else was fine.
I managed to get enough stuff for 2-3 weeks and back into quarantine after my decontamination protocols were completed.
Yes, but (at least as far as I'm aware) things like, don't take unnecessary journeys, are just 'guidelines', not laws. This is why the whole fines thing bothers me. It relies on an officers subjective opinion, not an objective piece of legislation, to charge people and take money from them. Im reading the bill currently and will make my opinions once I've finished.
We are going out every two or three days for relatively small amounts of supplies, basically replacingwhat we've used out of a stock which could be stretched up to two weeks with rationing.
However I live five minutes walk from two supermarkets and there is another huge one on the edge of town, so it's not hard to "forage".
Maybe it’s because I’m on a phone but my posts are coming out weird. Apologies for that.
Also it’s only Tuesday and I’m physically and mentally exhausted. I was already burnt out before this lockdown started and it’s only gotten worse. I keep reminding myself that others have got it worse though.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Yes, but (at least as far as I'm aware) things like, don't take unnecessary journeys, are just 'guidelines', not laws. This is why the whole fines thing bothers me. It relies on an officers subjective opinion, not an objective piece of legislation, to charge people and take money from them. Im reading the bill currently and will make my opinions once I've finished.
But vast swathes of existing legislation that have been in place for years revolve around subjectivity.
There's no law against carrying a crowbar in the boot of your car, but if you get discovered with one you can be arrested for going equipped, if the officer is of the opinion that's what you're up to, for instance.
I've been pulled over for not wearing a seat belt. He'd got me bang to rights, a genuine error on my part, but absolutely 100% guilty. The officer in question decided to let me off with a warning because he judged that I wasn't the sort who habitually did it. Which is the truth, but he could easily have written me a ticket.
In fact, for an ordinary citizen I'd say there's little outside of speeding and drink driving where the police action isn't dictated to some degree or another by the subjective opinion of the officer in question, and I don't see how this is much different.
The government is therefore ensuring the police and other relevant authorities have the powers to enforce them where people do not comply.
If you leave your home or gather in public for any reason other than those specified, the police may:
•instruct you to go home, leave an area or disperse
•instruct you to take steps to stop your children breaking these rules if they have already done so
•take you home – or arrest you – if you do not follow their instructions or where they deem it necessary
The police will act with discretion and common sense in applying these measures and we expect the public to act responsibly, staying at home in order to save lives.
However, if the police believe that you have broken these rules – or if you refuse to follow their instructions – a police officer may issue you with a fixed penalty notice for £60 (reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days). If you have already received a fixed penalty notice, the amount will increase to £120 and double on each further repeat offence.
So it is deliberately subjective. But these aren't guidelines - these are laws. As with any fine you can contest it, however I think we're all aware of how tedious and time consuming (not to mention money consuming!) that can be. And if you did take it to court I reckon you've got bugger all chance of getting off it.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I am SOOO tired of people buying stuff that doesnt really help or are buying it and not using it properly.
Yeah, Rubbing Alchohol kills the virus, but Cmon people you dont need it or to stock up on it, just wash your hands. I need it for airbrushing
I dont know why people are panic buying nail polish remover....but I cant find it.
And masks, particularly painting masks/respirators. Im not sure on the specifics, but im pretty sure the masks, especially particulate masks which i need for airbrushing, are not gonna help you and you will look stupid
Stop being selfish, buy what is reasonable and dont be a moron.
Eh...you might lack a certain perspective there, just a bit.
Anyway, hand sanitizer (and/or alcohol that you can use to make your own) is handy for those times when you're not able to immediately (or even 'soon') wash your hands.
And masks 'for airbrushing' are probably lower on the list then masks for...just about anything else health and safety related.
I mean, you can't possibly know what people are buying these things for - or if they're 'hoarding' them or not?
Or maybe they're all just airbrushing fans, like yourself.
I wear my filter mask whenever I go beyond my garden now. People don't laugh at it, and others comment about where they might get one. I got my mask just in time, they are very hard to get hold of now.
Feth airbrushing, get a mask to go shopping without breathing in other peoples infection. It is also a protection for others if you are infected but pre-symptomic.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Yes, but (at least as far as I'm aware) things like, don't take unnecessary journeys, are just 'guidelines', not laws. This is why the whole fines thing bothers me. It relies on an officers subjective opinion, not an objective piece of legislation, to charge people and take money from them. Im reading the bill currently and will make my opinions once I've finished.
But vast swathes of existing legislation that have been in place for years revolve around subjectivity.
There's no law against carrying a crowbar in the boot of your car, but if you get discovered with one you can be arrested for going equipped, if the officer is of the opinion that's what you're up to, for instance.
I've been pulled over for not wearing a seat belt. He'd got me bang to rights, a genuine error on my part, but absolutely 100% guilty. The officer in question decided to let me off with a warning because he judged that I wasn't the sort who habitually did it. Which is the truth, but he could easily have written me a ticket.
In fact, for an ordinary citizen I'd say there's little outside of speeding and drink driving where the police action isn't dictated to some degree or another by the subjective opinion of the officer in question, and I don't see how this is much different.
yes, but for a punishment to be given, proof has to be had, and/or you have to admit guilt. in your crowbar example, if they couldnt prove you were planning on something with that crowbar, they have to let you go. and as for your seatbelt story, well thats just an example of an officer with a bit of common sense. luckily some of those still exist.
Still trying to work out a lot of what Jihadin is saying. Its all in military speak.
However stumbled on this in a newsfeed. Half an hour old from time of this post.:
The captain of a Navy aircraft carrier sent an urgent memo asking for help to contain an outbreak on the ship.
Captain Brett Crozier, commander of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, asked that the ship be allowed to dock to let the 5,000 sailors on board quarantine.
“We are not at war. Sailors do not need to die,” Crozier wrote yesterday to Navy leaders, according to the Wall Street Journal. “If we do not act now, we are failing to properly take care of our most trusted asset—our sailors.”
Crozier warned the ship, which has already seen at least 70 cases of coronavirus, did not allow for the social distancing recommended by the CDC.
“With the exceptions of a handful of senior officer staterooms, none of the berthing onboard a warship is appropriate for quarantine or isolation,” Crozier wrote.
In response, the Navy said it is “moving quickly to take all necessary measures to ensure the health and safety of the crew of USS Theodore Roosevelt.”
Orlanth wrote: Still trying to work out a lot of what Jihadin is saying. Its all in military speak.
However stumbled on this in a newsfeed. Half an hour old from time of this post.:
The captain of a Navy aircraft carrier sent an urgent memo asking for help to contain an outbreak on the ship.
Captain Brett Crozier, commander of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, asked that the ship be allowed to dock to let the 5,000 sailors on board quarantine.
“We are not at war. Sailors do not need to die,” Crozier wrote yesterday to Navy leaders, according to the Wall Street Journal. “If we do not act now, we are failing to properly take care of our most trusted asset—our sailors.”
Crozier warned the ship, which has already seen at least 70 cases of coronavirus, did not allow for the social distancing recommended by the CDC.
“With the exceptions of a handful of senior officer staterooms, none of the berthing onboard a warship is appropriate for quarantine or isolation,” Crozier wrote.
In response, the Navy said it is “moving quickly to take all necessary measures to ensure the health and safety of the crew of USS Theodore Roosevelt.”
Yeah, I can think of few places I'd want to be stuck on during a viral outbreak less than a ship, and one of those few places is a submarine!
Perhaps it's just me, but it feels like things have largely come to a head in the UK. That is to say, it's not going to get much worse.
-The Nightingale hospital comes online shortly with two more in the works up North, and we haven't even hit capacity in most hospitals.
-Assuming basic tests are passed, CPAP devices and ventilators will start rolling off the production lines in a week or so.
-The figures for new reported cases have stabilised over the last four days.
-The rush on supermarket food is diminishing daily as people have now stocked out their cupboards.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's going to get better any time soon. Restrictions aren't going to be eased for a few months and I certainly expect to see an increase in the number of people committed to hospital.
But it's all starting to feel less out of control, and more of a numbers game. Where we can measure infection rates against equipment supply and hospital capacity rates, and make sure things don't tip into excess (which is where tragedies like Italy happen). Where you can start planning again on a personal level (instead of hunting for food), and state projections can start switching from knee jerk response to management.
It could still go ploin shaped over the next two-three weeks as the system continues to adapt; but it feels like some semblance of control is finally starting to assert itself.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Yes, but (at least as far as I'm aware) things like, don't take unnecessary journeys, are just 'guidelines', not laws. This is why the whole fines thing bothers me. It relies on an officers subjective opinion, not an objective piece of legislation, to charge people and take money from them. Im reading the bill currently and will make my opinions once I've finished.
But vast swathes of existing legislation that have been in place for years revolve around subjectivity.
There's no law against carrying a crowbar in the boot of your car, but if you get discovered with one you can be arrested for going equipped, if the officer is of the opinion that's what you're up to, for instance.
I've been pulled over for not wearing a seat belt. He'd got me bang to rights, a genuine error on my part, but absolutely 100% guilty. The officer in question decided to let me off with a warning because he judged that I wasn't the sort who habitually did it. Which is the truth, but he could easily have written me a ticket.
In fact, for an ordinary citizen I'd say there's little outside of speeding and drink driving where the police action isn't dictated to some degree or another by the subjective opinion of the officer in question, and I don't see how this is much different.
yes, but for a punishment to be given, proof has to be had, and/or you have to admit guilt. in your crowbar example, if they couldnt prove you were planning on something with that crowbar, they have to let you go. and as for your seatbelt story, well thats just an example of an officer with a bit of common sense. luckily some of those still exist.
In a criminal matter, yes, there's due process and burden of proof, but for any number of civil issues on the spot fines have been a thing for a long time. This is just a novel application of an existing procedure. There's no doubt an appeal procedure if you feel that it's been issued unfairly, just like there are with existing offences.
The fact is the whole legal system is massively subjective, that's why we have judges, appeal courts, supreme courts etc. It's just that sometime that subjectivity appears earlier in the chain than others.
Orlanth wrote: Still trying to work out a lot of what Jihadin is saying. Its all in military speak.
However stumbled on this in a newsfeed. Half an hour old from time of this post.:
The captain of a Navy aircraft carrier sent an urgent memo asking for help to contain an outbreak on the ship.
Captain Brett Crozier, commander of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, asked that the ship be allowed to dock to let the 5,000 sailors on board quarantine.
“We are not at war. Sailors do not need to die,” Crozier wrote yesterday to Navy leaders, according to the Wall Street Journal. “If we do not act now, we are failing to properly take care of our most trusted asset—our sailors.”
Crozier warned the ship, which has already seen at least 70 cases of coronavirus, did not allow for the social distancing recommended by the CDC.
“With the exceptions of a handful of senior officer staterooms, none of the berthing onboard a warship is appropriate for quarantine or isolation,” Crozier wrote.
In response, the Navy said it is “moving quickly to take all necessary measures to ensure the health and safety of the crew of USS Theodore Roosevelt.”
Yeah, I can think of few places I'd want to be stuck on during a viral outbreak less than a ship, and one of those few places is a submarine!
Speaking of which, a Dutch submarine broke off an exercise the other day due to an outbreak on board. Sailed back into port, and the crewmembers are now in quarantine. No casualties AFAIK.
The main problem is what happens when the government relaxes quarantine and reactivates the country. Not only does returning to "normal life" run the risk of infections running rampant through the population once again; there's also the fact that it might run even further as people might hold parties, events etc... all in celebration - whilst event companies might try to quickly restart some events that were lost to recoup the massive losses they've taken this year.
Plus even if the UK manages to contain its domestic infection there's still a huge risk from overseas. Even those nations that have done really well like Hong Kong can't be overlooking the fact that unless every nation self-contains to drive the disease out of the population (accepting that many might be cured and yet carriers); then its simply a pause before infections spike again.
At least until a cure/vaccine is developed. Either of which is likely years off being a viable safe tested medication and yet more years off being proscribed the world over.
One benefit is perhaps this might be a major nail in the coffin of anti-vaccination movements. It's given the whole world a scary wake-up call on the potential of what a major disease outbreak could do and, lets be honest, this one is fairly moderate. At least compared to something far more lethal like the Plague.
I think the UK government is still working on the basis that things will get worse still. We've bought time with the current measures and people/business are adapting. However many of the adaptions are not sustainable; heck home isolation isn't sustainable long term.
Overread wrote: The main problem is what happens when the government relaxes quarantine and reactivates the country. Not only does returning to "normal life" run the risk of infections running rampant through the population once again; there's also the fact that it might run even further as people might hold parties, events etc... all in celebration - whilst event companies might try to quickly restart some events that were lost to recoup the massive losses they've taken this year.
Plus even if the UK manages to contain its domestic infection there's still a huge risk from overseas. Even those nations that have done really well like Hong Kong can't be overlooking the fact that unless every nation self-contains to drive the disease out of the population (accepting that many might be cured and yet carriers); then its simply a pause before infections spike again.
At least until a cure/vaccine is developed. Either of which is likely years off being a viable safe tested medication and yet more years off being proscribed the world over.
One benefit is perhaps this might be a major nail in the coffin of anti-vaccination movements. It's given the whole world a scary wake-up call on the potential of what a major disease outbreak could do and, lets be honest, this one is fairly moderate. At least compared to something far more lethal like the Plague.
I think the UK government is still working on the basis that things will get worse still. We've bought time with the current measures and people/business are adapting. However many of the adaptions are not sustainable; heck home isolation isn't sustainable long term.
Like I said, don't get me wrong. I don't think things are going to get better from now on in terms of casualties (quite the opposite- cases are going to keep hitting the hospitals), and the worst point is going to be the next three weeks for that as new faciltiiers and capabilities come online.
But it feels like it's a numbers game now. Even if it gets worse for that fortnight, things have stabilised and that decline is predictable and will be eased past that point. Up until now, everything has been a case of acting and hoping. Very little room for even mid-term planning. No control over the situation. It's that state of affairs changing which I'm referring to.
The status on CDC's recommendation of masks is still under review. Masks may include improvised ones, such as a scarf.
"Officials at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are considering altering the official guidance to encourage people to take measures to cover their faces amid the coronavirus pandemic, according to a federal official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because it is an ongoing matter of internal discussion and nothing has been finalized.
"Dr. Robert Redfield, the director of the C.D.C., confirmed in an interview with National Public Radio on Monday that the agency was reviewing its guidelines on who should wear masks. Citing new data that shows high rates of transmission from people who are infected but show no symptoms, he said the guidance on mask wearing was “being critically re-reviewed, to see if there’s potential additional value for individuals that are infected or individuals that may be asymptomatically infected.” ... The coronavirus is probably three times as infectious as the flu, Dr. Redfield said. The proportion of people who are infected but asymptomatic — for 48 hours or so before showing any signs of fever, cough or other signs of the disease — may be as high as 25 percent, he said. ... “Note: During a public health emergency, face masks may be reserved for health care workers. You may need to improvise a face mask using a scarf or bandana.”
Correlation is not causation and I'm looking for corroboration. I'm sure, though, that research will show that even DIY masks reduce the spread of viruses from infected people, and masks prevent direct touch of fingers to the face. Commonly used face masks do not filter out viral particles.
Czechoslovakia recently required its citizens to wear masks, even DIY ones, in public, and a study said their curve was flattening. I figure more info would be ideal, but dunno if it's worth the time given the rate of the virus' infection.
South Korea's graph looks interesting -- need to look closer.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Yes, but (at least as far as I'm aware) things like, don't take unnecessary journeys, are just 'guidelines', not laws. This is why the whole fines thing bothers me. It relies on an officers subjective opinion, not an objective piece of legislation, to charge people and take money from them. Im reading the bill currently and will make my opinions once I've finished.
But vast swathes of existing legislation that have been in place for years revolve around subjectivity.
There's no law against carrying a crowbar in the boot of your car, but if you get discovered with one you can be arrested for going equipped, if the officer is of the opinion that's what you're up to, for instance.
I've been pulled over for not wearing a seat belt. He'd got me bang to rights, a genuine error on my part, but absolutely 100% guilty. The officer in question decided to let me off with a warning because he judged that I wasn't the sort who habitually did it. Which is the truth, but he could easily have written me a ticket.
In fact, for an ordinary citizen I'd say there's little outside of speeding and drink driving where the police action isn't dictated to some degree or another by the subjective opinion of the officer in question, and I don't see how this is much different.
yes, but there are still definitive things that constitute the crime. what is that here? going for a drive? ok, is it necessary? well who decides that? not the law, the officers in this case. it doesnt sit well with me, nor should it with anyone who considers themselves a liberal or libertarian. I think the police questioning innocent citizens going about their business, harming nobody, is a little too authoritarian for my liking, not to mention the nonsense about dying lakes black and leaving notes on peoples cars.
yes, but for a punishment to be given, proof has to be had, and/or you have to admit guilt. in your crowbar example, if they couldnt prove you were planning on something with that crowbar, they have to let you go. and as for your seatbelt story, well thats just an example of an officer with a bit of common sense. luckily some of those still exist.
In a criminal matter, yes, there's due process and burden of proof, but for any number of civil issues on the spot fines have been a thing for a long time. This is just a novel application of an existing procedure. There's no doubt an appeal procedure if you feel that it's been issued unfairly, just like there are with existing offences.
The fact is the whole legal system is massively subjective, that's why we have judges, appeal courts, supreme courts etc. It's just that sometime that subjectivity appears earlier in the chain than others.
yes, but there are still definitive things that constitute the crime. what is that here? going for a drive? ok, is it necessary? well who decides that? not the law, the officers in this case. it doesnt sit well with me, nor should it with anyone who considers themselves a liberal or libertarian. I think the police questioning innocent citizens going about their business, harming nobody, is a little too authoritarian for my liking, not to mention the nonsense about dying lakes black and leaving notes on peoples cars.
I live with someone who is a hospital nurse and it makes me a tad paranoid. Feels like it puts everyone in the house at a higher risk than i'd like. If things keep going this way i'm gonna end up walking around the house with gloves and a balaclava looking like a spetsnaz operator. Might look like a burglar but it'll have to do since I haven't been able to find any decent masks or toilet paper for a solid two weeks. The only other mask I have is a spray paint repirator from home depot, but it's not comfortable and I can't say if that will offer much more protection than a scarf. I kind of feel it would, since it's organic vapor cartridges but eh.
I'm particularly worried about my grandma since she had pneumonia a few months back around november. She recovered fine but being struck again so soon probably wouldn't turn out well.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Yes, but (at least as far as I'm aware) things like, don't take unnecessary journeys, are just 'guidelines', not laws. This is why the whole fines thing bothers me. It relies on an officers subjective opinion, not an objective piece of legislation, to charge people and take money from them. Im reading the bill currently and will make my opinions once I've finished.
But vast swathes of existing legislation that have been in place for years revolve around subjectivity.
There's no law against carrying a crowbar in the boot of your car, but if you get discovered with one you can be arrested for going equipped, if the officer is of the opinion that's what you're up to, for instance.
I've been pulled over for not wearing a seat belt. He'd got me bang to rights, a genuine error on my part, but absolutely 100% guilty. The officer in question decided to let me off with a warning because he judged that I wasn't the sort who habitually did it. Which is the truth, but he could easily have written me a ticket.
In fact, for an ordinary citizen I'd say there's little outside of speeding and drink driving where the police action isn't dictated to some degree or another by the subjective opinion of the officer in question, and I don't see how this is much different.
yes, but there are still definitive things that constitute the crime. what is that here? going for a drive? ok, is it necessary? well who decides that? not the law, the officers in this case. it doesnt sit well with me, nor should it with anyone who considers themselves a liberal or libertarian. I think the police questioning innocent citizens going about their business, harming nobody, is a little too authoritarian for my liking, not to mention the nonsense about dying lakes black and leaving notes on peoples cars.
yes, but for a punishment to be given, proof has to be had, and/or you have to admit guilt. in your crowbar example, if they couldnt prove you were planning on something with that crowbar, they have to let you go. and as for your seatbelt story, well thats just an example of an officer with a bit of common sense. luckily some of those still exist.
In a criminal matter, yes, there's due process and burden of proof, but for any number of civil issues on the spot fines have been a thing for a long time. This is just a novel application of an existing procedure. There's no doubt an appeal procedure if you feel that it's been issued unfairly, just like there are with existing offences.
The fact is the whole legal system is massively subjective, that's why we have judges, appeal courts, supreme courts etc. It's just that sometime that subjectivity appears earlier in the chain than others.
yes, but there are still definitive things that constitute the crime. what is that here? going for a drive? ok, is it necessary? well who decides that? not the law, the officers in this case. it doesnt sit well with me, nor should it with anyone who considers themselves a liberal or libertarian. I think the police questioning innocent citizens going about their business, harming nobody, is a little too authoritarian for my liking, not to mention the nonsense about dying lakes black and leaving notes on peoples cars.
I agree entirely re: the questioning of citizens, but you're quite a way off I think Re: 'definitive things that constitute the crime'. There are many, many crimes that are subjective. Including serious ones carrying custodial sentences. What's reasonable force? What is consent between sexual partners? What's dangerous driving?
Ketara wrote: Perhaps it's just me, but it feels like things have largely come to a head in the UK. That is to say, it's not going to get much worse.
-The Nightingale hospital comes online shortly with two more in the works up North, and we haven't even hit capacity in most hospitals.
-Assuming basic tests are passed, CPAP devices and ventilators will start rolling off the production lines in a week or so.
-The figures for new reported cases have stabilised over the last four days.
-The rush on supermarket food is diminishing daily as people have now stocked out their cupboards.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's going to get better any time soon. Restrictions aren't going to be eased for a few months and I certainly expect to see an increase in the number of people committed to hospital.
But it's all starting to feel less out of control, and more of a numbers game. Where we can measure infection rates against equipment supply and hospital capacity rates, and make sure things don't tip into excess (which is where tragedies like Italy happen). Where you can start planning again on a personal level (instead of hunting for food), and state projections can start switching from knee jerk response to management.
It could still go ploin shaped over the next two-three weeks as the system continues to adapt; but it feels like some semblance of control is finally starting to assert itself.
Are there any non goverment sources for claims? Goverment sources are hardly reliable seeing they have banned medical personel from talking about serious shortage of PPE's or risk losing their job.
I think the police questioning innocent citizens going about their business, harming nobody, is a little too authoritarian for my liking, not to mention the nonsense about dying lakes black and leaving notes on peoples cars.
Tell you what, if it continues once it's been officially announced that Coronavirus isn't a threat anymore, I'll wave a placard next to you.
But while hundreds of thousands may get sick, tens of thousands may die and millions have their livelihoods threatened, I'm willing to put up with being questioned, and, as with so many of these things, if I'm not actually acting like a gakker it'll mildly inconvenience me at worst.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, it bears repeating that these powers were only brought in because part of the population couldn't act like grown ups, it's those idiots that should be criticised, not the government, who are a blunt instrument at the best of times, let alone when their hand is forced into rapid action.
Are there any non goverment sources for claims? Goverment sources are hardly reliable seeing they have banned medical personel from talking about serious shortage of PPE's or risk losing their job.
Just to clarify, are you insinuating that the government is deliberately pushing the NHS into falsifying data regarding the number of reported cases? Or that they are lying when they make public reference to the estimated production capacity of Mercedes' CPAP production plant? That their estimates for bringing the Excel centre online are well off track and they are deliberately distorting that information?
If so, do you have any evidence? Just so I know how seriously to take you. Omitting and spinning small things into big things are standard political fare, actively lying is another.
Ketara wrote: Perhaps it's just me, but it feels like things have largely come to a head in the UK. That is to say, it's not going to get much worse.
-The Nightingale hospital comes online shortly with two more in the works up North, and we haven't even hit capacity in most hospitals.
-Assuming basic tests are passed, CPAP devices and ventilators will start rolling off the production lines in a week or so.
-The figures for new reported cases have stabilised over the last four days.
-The rush on supermarket food is diminishing daily as people have now stocked out their cupboards.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's going to get better any time soon. Restrictions aren't going to be eased for a few months and I certainly expect to see an increase in the number of people committed to hospital.
But it's all starting to feel less out of control, and more of a numbers game. Where we can measure infection rates against equipment supply and hospital capacity rates, and make sure things don't tip into excess (which is where tragedies like Italy happen). Where you can start planning again on a personal level (instead of hunting for food), and state projections can start switching from knee jerk response to management.
It could still go ploin shaped over the next two-three weeks as the system continues to adapt; but it feels like some semblance of control is finally starting to assert itself.
I think this is the case also. While our politicians leave a lot to be desired the Civil Service when it must act can be very decisive. The Uk has more and longer contingencies for disaster than most European countries, its our strong suit. The Civil Service may be a dinosaur but it is largely well meaning and the procedures made often long ago are sound.
We could not stop COVID-19 from entering the country because the polticians didn't take it serious enough quickly enough, but the NHS and contingency planners have the matter well in hand. NHS Nightingale is a major undertaking, but due to the circumstances events that would be held up in rounds of red tape and bidding just occured and quickly too. From a freind on the inside the Civil Service is a dinosaur rife with inefficiencies and sloth, but when they have to they have the capability to drop their BS and act decisively, he saw it before in another crisis We are seeing this now.
Cases will rise but the State has woken up to the challenge. Holding it together is one of the things the British are good at frankly, we can be a self centered myopic lot, but there have been enough signs that the other side of the nations character, the coming together in a crisis is happening.
I think the police questioning innocent citizens going about their business, harming nobody, is a little too authoritarian for my liking, not to mention the nonsense about dying lakes black and leaving notes on peoples cars.
Tell you what, if it continues once it's been officially announced that Coronavirus isn't a threat anymore, I'll wave a placard next to you.
But while hundreds of thousands may get sick, tens of thousands may die and millions have their livelihoods threatened, I'm willing to put up with being questioned, and, as with so many of these things, if I'm not actually acting like a gakker it'll mildly inconvenience me at worst.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, it bears repeating that these powers were only brought in because part of the population couldn't act like grown ups, it's those idiots that should be criticised, not the government, who are a blunt instrument at the best of times, let alone when their hand is forced into rapid action.
Well, I agree somewhat, in that I'll accept emergency powers, considering the circumstances, but I think the police are being too heavy handed, already. Can anyone justify the whole lake thing? Or the drones? Don't they have actual important work to do instead of basically pissing about, harassing folk who have 0 chance of spreading the virus in the circumstances?
I haven't finished reading the bill yet but the sunset clause point is 2 years. Seems a little long to me. Although it could be worse, we could be in Hungary.
@ced - Wow, yeah - that masks graph is pretty illuminating. I think it also illustrates how this kind of caught the world by surprise... in hindsight, if we'd known that, everyone should've just masked up lol.
As for us here, still waiting on the test results. Sorry I didn't reply to the question about symptoms last page - I have felt somewhat premature talking about things in detail without knowing whether we truly have COVID-19 or just something else.
Where my number one, overwhelming symptom is just fatigue (most noticeable when trying to chase my little kids around, who are obviously home at the moment) and also some shortness of breath. Of course, it could just be something standard, but I've literally never felt this way before. Hopefully they'll finally get that test back to me and I can stop wondering either way >.<. Also, obviously really thankful that, if we do have it, we're on that end of the spectrum of symptoms rather than those who have been hit really hard (I also wonder if this has to do with the "L" vs "S" strain, as someone also mentioned last page).
timetowaste85 wrote: This is all starting to feel like Captain Tripp’s from The Stand. Been feeling that way for a while, but haven’t wanted to say it.
Nah, that was a designed weapon superkiller bug and noone survived it and it burned through the whole world (0% survival rate and really really fast killer) in far less time than corona has done anything, plus it had the crimson king and randall flagg to help it along. Nothing close to that bad, though the good guys still won in the end even with captain tripps.
OK so upon reading the emergency powers section of the bill, the main points are clause 49 and 50, which basically give the authorities powers to enforce testing and quarantine of those with, or suspected to have the virus (pending testing), and to stop gatherings and enforce the closure of property, to prevent the spread of the virus. However, it mentions nothing about fines, and nothing about powers to prohibit leaving your house for whatever reason. It states:
'Taken together, clauses 49 and 50 would provide each of the UK governments with wide-ranging powers to restrict the freedom of movement of citizens in order to prevent the spread of the virus. However, there are no powers in the Bill which would allow directions to be issued requiring individuals to have prior permission or good reason to leave their homes. Neither would the Bill give the police or immigration officials powers to enforce elongated quarantines of people who have not been assessed for the virus by public health officers.'
Therefore, the advice to stay at home as much as possible is just an unenforceable guideline, and some police actions of the past week or so have definitely crossed a line.
Czechoslovakia recently required its citizens to wear masks
ye gods, the virus can travel back in time!?
On a more serious note, number of US deaths just "beat" 9/11 and is on its way to top 4000. It took a month to get to 1000 fatalities, and then it all went to hell in a matter of days.
Czechoslovakia recently required its citizens to wear masks
ye gods, the virus can travel back in time!?
On a more serious note, number of US deaths just "beat" 9/11 and is on its way to top 4000. It took a month to get to 1000 fatalities, and then it all went to hell in a matter of days.
Also with what I’ve been hearing about amazon, I’ve cancelled Prime and I’m endeavouring to never buy from them again.
What did Amazon do now?
Amazon fired the guy who led the walkout protest.
On the other hand, he was also supposed to be staying at home, with pay, on quarantine for possible exposure to the virus.
Also with what I’ve been hearing about amazon, I’ve cancelled Prime and I’m endeavouring to never buy from them again.
What did Amazon do now?
Amazon fired the guy who led the walkout protest.
On the other hand, he was also supposed to be staying at home, with pay, on quarantine for possible exposure to the virus.
That seems pretty reasonable to me. But then, today has been a litany of workers making demands for more money and threatening strikes, which seems shaking moral ground and dangerous employment grounds when there's a glut of newly unemployed people who'll line up to replace them.
Also with what I’ve been hearing about amazon, I’ve cancelled Prime and I’m endeavouring to never buy from them again.
What did Amazon do now?
Amazon fired the guy who led the walkout protest.
On the other hand, he was also supposed to be staying at home, with pay, on quarantine for possible exposure to the virus.
That seems pretty reasonable to me. But then, today has been a litany of workers making demands for more money and threatening strikes, which seems shaking moral ground and dangerous employment grounds when there's a glut of newly unemployed people who'll line up to replace them.
Yeah, as long as we can just keep feeding serfs into the grinder who cares right?
The carrier being talked about is the USS Theodore Roosevelt in Guam. They're still close quarters so its spreading like what happened on the cruise ship. CPT is way concern because he cannot decon the ship with infected crew members still on board. Those of us that was/were in the military knows its gawddamn drastic for him to come out like that.
Nothing really new. Though cotton gowns and surgical masks are being considered now. They can be sterilized in a hospital or a portable sterilizer. That's a surgical room aspect but that free up more gowns and PPE for use elsewhere.
Positive note. The remixes being done by Akon and them are pretty damn rocking.
We're using railheads now to ship materials out. Basically we be using rail more then semi's. The semi's are to be used for hot shot cargo haul that needs to get there now.
Bad news. I say it simply. No one really covering or tracking the homeless.
Jihadin wrote: The carrier being talked about is the USS Theodore Roosevelt in Guam. They're still close quarters so its spreading like what happened on the cruise ship. CPT is way concern because he cannot decon the ship with infected crew members still on board. Those of us that was/were in the military knows its gawddamn drastic for him to come out like that.
Nothing really new. Though cotton gowns and surgical masks are being considered now. They can be sterilized in a hospital or a portable sterilizer. That's a surgical room aspect but that free up more gowns and PPE for use elsewhere.
Positive note. The remixes being done by Akon and them are pretty damn rocking.
We're using railheads now to ship materials out. Basically we be using rail more then semi's. The semi's are to be used for hot shot cargo haul that needs to get there now.
Bad news. I say it simply. No one really covering or tracking the homeless.
There is a silver lining to this.
NBC training opportunity. This kind of gak could happen in war.
US carriers are extravagent, cramped and overmanned, they have 50% larger air group than a UK or French carrier, but about four times the manpower.
I am actually shocked at how little protection there iappears to be against an infection. I was expecting filters and shielding and NBC contingencies which should also take effect against a virus.
Also with what I’ve been hearing about amazon, I’ve cancelled Prime and I’m endeavouring to never buy from them again.
What did Amazon do now?
Amazon fired the guy who led the walkout protest.
On the other hand, he was also supposed to be staying at home, with pay, on quarantine for possible exposure to the virus.
That seems pretty reasonable to me. But then, today has been a litany of workers making demands for more money and threatening strikes, which seems shaking moral ground and dangerous employment grounds when there's a glut of newly unemployed people who'll line up to replace them.
Yeah, as long as we can just keep feeding serfs into the grinder who cares right?
Sure, you could take it that way.
Personally, since delivery services are becoming more essential for large segments of the population, I find leveraging the pandemic for a pay raise by threatening to leave people without access to essential food and medicine deliveries to be fairly disgusting. Sorry, Granny Jill, we need more cash money before you get your meds this week. Hopefully you won't die, but honestly, we don't care as long as we get ours, right?
Times are tough all over. Prioritizing selfishness over helping others strikes me as the wrong road.
I have a different take, and one I predicted from the start of this thread.
The pandemic will unlock societal change. The US is too corporate and right wing, low tier workers have too few rights compared to just about any modern democratic state.
Amazon are all about gouging, cutting corners and not paying enough wages or enough tax. Conditions for workers in Amazon in Europe are bad enough, in the US they are worse due to even fewer workers safeguards. Enough is enough.
I know people who worked in an Amazon warehouse and it is draconian very hire and fire, and with no prospects and lots of suspicion. Staff are treated like suspect thieves, toilet break are timed work practices can be best described as Dickensian. You can get censured if someone picking you up after sghift doesnt park in the rifght place, and you can be summarily dismissed after two censures. Yes you can be summarily dismissed after two infractions by a third party.
Frankly Amazon are c-words, they need to be taken down a peg or two, and this is coming from someone who doesn't have a single socialist bone in his body.
COVID-19 is a chance for employees to gain some rights, and I hope they get it. Just in the same way the Black Death killed the feudal stranglehold and gave the peasantry some political leeway.
ValentineGames wrote: You can't really get a world prediction with China blatantly lying about its figures.
Even a prediction needs some semblance of accuracy
Very true, lran, N Korea and China are likely to fudge numbers.
Jihadin wrote: The carrier being talked about is the USS Theodore Roosevelt in Guam. They're still close quarters so its spreading like what happened on the cruise ship. CPT is way concern because he cannot decon the ship with infected crew members still on board. Those of us that was/were in the military knows its gawddamn drastic for him to come out like that.
Nothing really new. Though cotton gowns and surgical masks are being considered now. They can be sterilized in a hospital or a portable sterilizer. That's a surgical room aspect but that free up more gowns and PPE for use elsewhere.
Positive note. The remixes being done by Akon and them are pretty damn rocking.
We're using railheads now to ship materials out. Basically we be using rail more then semi's. The semi's are to be used for hot shot cargo haul that needs to get there now.
Bad news. I say it simply. No one really covering or tracking the homeless.
There is a silver lining to this.
NBC training opportunity. This kind of gak could happen in war.
US carriers are extravagent, cramped and overmanned, they have 50% larger air group than a UK or French carrier, but about four times the manpower.
I am actually shocked at how little protection there iappears to be against an infection. I was expecting filters and shielding and NBC contingencies which should also take effect against a virus.
You've seen too many films.
My opinion would be to keep them all on there, except any that may need critical care, for obvious reasons. Have clean medical crew in protective gear go in and perform testing, and take in supplies. once you've had the antibody test and passed, you can leave.
Also with what I’ve been hearing about amazon, I’ve cancelled Prime and I’m endeavouring to never buy from them again.
What did Amazon do now?
Amazon fired the guy who led the walkout protest.
On the other hand, he was also supposed to be staying at home, with pay, on quarantine for possible exposure to the virus.
That seems pretty reasonable to me. But then, today has been a litany of workers making demands for more money and threatening strikes, which seems shaking moral ground and dangerous employment grounds when there's a glut of newly unemployed people who'll line up to replace them.
Yeah, as long as we can just keep feeding serfs into the grinder who cares right?
Sure, you could take it that way.
Personally, since delivery services are becoming more essential for large segments of the population, I find leveraging the pandemic for a pay raise by threatening to leave people without access to essential food and medicine deliveries to be fairly disgusting. Sorry, Granny Jill, we need more cash money before you get your meds this week. Hopefully you won't die, but honestly, we don't care as long as we get ours, right?
Times are tough all over. Prioritizing selfishness over helping others strikes me as the wrong road.
No, not really, is it questionable to do so, sure, but then again lets not forget that institutions like "workingpeace agreements" are not widespread in the states as is worker protection. I am not left of the mariana trench but there are things that were systematically denied to the workforce and now the employers have a revolt to deal with off their own making.
ValentineGames wrote: You can't really get a world prediction with China blatantly lying about its figures.
Even a prediction needs some semblance of accuracy
Very true, lran, N Korea and China are likely to fudge numbers.
North Korea?
Also why would Iran fudge their numbers, they are one of the hardest hit and require that sanctions are lifted else they get the full brunt off it.
The Mask/No Nask hypothesis is disproved by the fact that Korea's infection curve was as sharp as any of the No Mask nation's, and it's a famously mask-wearing nation like Japan.
The science around masks says the standard type of surgical mask offers more or less no protection against the virus. It could actually increase your chance of being infected. If you touch a surface with virus particles on it, then touch the mask, the viruses are transferred to the mask. The moisture in your breath will then mobilise them and transport them through the material, which is pretty much transparent to such small particles.
There are other reasons why Japan and Singapore have a low curve.
Memos from CDC to White House lay out rationale for possible widespread use of face coverings
From the Washington Post : "Federal officials debating whether to recommend that face coverings be routinely worn in public are responding to increasing evidence that infected people without symptoms can spread the coronavirus, according to internal memos provided to the White House by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Simple cloth masks that cover the mouth and nose can prevent virus transmission from such individuals when they are out buying groceries or seeking medical care, according to the memos obtained by The Washington Post. ... The memos make clear the coverings under discussion are not medical masks, such as N95 respirators or surgical face masks. ...There’s still no consensus in the scientific community on whether widespread use of such coverings would make a significant difference, and some infectious disease experts worry that masks could lull people into a false sense of security and make them less disciplined about social distancing ."
Times are tough all over. Prioritizing selfishness over helping others strikes me as the wrong road.
'I would like to be paid a liveable wage by a company whose vast profits are derived from absolutely non-essential sales for a job which currently may actually risk my life' is not selfishness.
Also with what I’ve been hearing about amazon, I’ve cancelled Prime and I’m endeavouring to never buy from them again.
What did Amazon do now?
Amazon fired the guy who led the walkout protest. On the other hand, he was also supposed to be staying at home, with pay, on quarantine for possible exposure to the virus.
That seems pretty reasonable to me. But then, today has been a litany of workers making demands for more money and threatening strikes, which seems shaking moral ground and dangerous employment grounds when there's a glut of newly unemployed people who'll line up to replace them.
Yeah, as long as we can just keep feeding serfs into the grinder who cares right?
Sure, you could take it that way.
Personally, since delivery services are becoming more essential for large segments of the population, I find leveraging the pandemic for a pay raise by threatening to leave people without access to essential food and medicine deliveries to be fairly disgusting. Sorry, Granny Jill, we need more cash money before you get your meds this week. Hopefully you won't die, but honestly, we don't care as long as we get ours, right?
Times are tough all over. Prioritizing selfishness over helping others strikes me as the wrong road.
It was fine when the other side of the equation prioritized selfishness for years though? We've finally seen just how essential those employees are, seems perfect time to demand fair treatment for essential labor.
It was fine when the other side of the equation prioritized selfishness for years though? We've finally seen just how essential those employees are, seems perfect time to demand fair treatment for essential labor.
This. Saying that you shouldn't be able to capitalise on events which give more power to the workers in order to try and get more equitable treatment from those holding the capital is effectively tilting the power even further towards those capitalists and away from the workers.
Don't blame the workers that the government has fostered an environment where their only chance for acquiring stronger rights is through this kind of action and that same government has not adequately set up a social safety net which would help prevent such desperation for its own people when faced with a pabdemic.
Orlanth wrote: I have a different take, and one I predicted from the start of this thread.
The pandemic will unlock societal change. The US is too corporate and right wing, low tier workers have too few rights compared to just about any modern democratic state.
I am sure Covid-19 will change the way the US approaches workers rights just the way Sandy Hook changed the way that we approached gun violence, and the Afghanistan War changed the way we approach the military-industrial context.
Kilkrazy wrote: The Mask/No Nask hypothesis is disproved by the fact that Korea's infection curve was as sharp as any of the No Mask nation's, and it's a famously mask-wearing nation like Japan.
I don't think that's a fair generalization of Korea, at least. They got caught by surprise early by that large church meeting in close quarters, without masks, and infecting hundreds of people to seed the nation before they were ready. The fact that they then completely demolished the curve after those cases were dealt with would only add to the mask argument, not detract from it.
At the Very least, we know it can make a person 5x less likely to get sick if in the vicinity of someone who is positive. Of course washing hands, not touching your face, also obviously help. But to say it's been disproved or doesn't help just isn't factual. There are lots of reasons why it can't be implemented in a large country like the US, of course (lack of masks, different culture, etc). But that's very different from saying it wasn't a factor in the strategy of those very successful countries.
Looks great, but artificially ends in October. The model is javascript and runs in a browser, so you can actually edit to to run past October - which gives you this:
The argument is that until there is a actual vaccine, all social distancing is doing is kicking the can down the road.
I think the idea is by then, we'd be much better prepared (with at least a treatment, even if a vaccine isn't ready). But yeah, omitting that is a little disingenuous. However, you obviously can't stay shut down forever, and if doing so for a bit now gets us into the summer when people are less susceptible, that's good at least.
Dr. Fauci did say he expects another outbreak in the winter. But imo it would be impossible to be less ready than we were now and progress on treatments has been very good. So that would obviously effect that graph a lot, too.
On masks, here's Dr. Fauci's take from yesterday. They're considering it, and I'm sure it would help, but logistically just not sure it could be pulled off in the US:
Yeah the UK government has been very up front that the whole social distancing and isolation pattern is purely about smoothing the curve so that its easier for the NHS to cope. They've never said that it would outright stop infection. The virus spreads too easily, has too long an incubation and has spread too far that, without a vaccine, its nearly impossible to stop its spread now without taking even more extreme isolation measures. And they would only work if it was done the world over, not just within one country.
Suffice to say if you can smooth the curve you reduce deaths from those who will only survive with medial aid. Those who will survive without hospital aid are none the better either way, but those who need medical cover gain greatly because a health system that isn't overloaded can better cope. Plus whilst there's always a finite cap the production and provision of more beds, ventilators and better understanding of the disease means that the total number of patients that the system can cope with, is rising the whole time.
For example the drug that France is adopting which can reduce the recovery time by half makes a huge difference to the rate of infection that a country can sustain.
So yes I'd wager countries doing isolation will eventually remove isolation measures and then likely 2 to 4 weeks later will bring them back into force
Looks great, but artificially ends in October. The model is javascript and runs in a browser, so you can actually edit to to run past October - which gives you this:
The argument is that until there is a actual vaccine, all social distancing is doing is kicking the can down the road.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but this reads like a 'They're lying to you! They're just putting off the problem!'
That's exactly the point. No institution advocating social distancing says that's going to seriously reduce (and certainly not stop) the infections, it's entirely about reducing the infections at any given time.
RiTides wrote: Your work conditions really need improving, FWC
On masks, here's Dr. Fauci's take from yesterday. They're considering it, and I'm sure it would help, but logistically just not sure it could be pulled off in the US:
Yup, this all makes me think of a line that Garrus says in ME3 about the "cold calculus of war".
Instead it is the cold calculus of medicine on a societal level. Maybe everyone having masks would help and less people would get infected. But then you might end up with a shortage of masks for those who are in more contact with infected persons. And so those who can treat the infected people end up ill themselves, which reduces the total care that can be given. So you have to accept more people getting infected and potentially dying in order to try and make sure that the people who will be caring for those who are sick have access to adequate protection, which means they can keep caring for people for longer and results in less deaths in the long run.
Looks great, but artificially ends in October. The model is javascript and runs in a browser, so you can actually edit to to run past October - which gives you this:
The argument is that until there is a actual vaccine, all social distancing is doing is kicking the can down the road.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but this reads like a 'They're lying to you! They're just putting off the problem!'
That's exactly the point. No institution advocating social distancing says that's going to seriously reduce (and certainly not stop) the infections, it's entirely about reducing the infections at any given time.
But no one is seriously suggesting (yet) that the country-wide lockdowns continue until a vaccine is developed - which is probably a year out, right? Unless that is the plan, and I don't think it's been said it is, then what difference does it make whether we overwhelm hospitals and spike fatalities now, or in October?
I mean, the chances I am missing something are pretty good. Maybe the idea is to dramatically ramp up healthcare availability in parallel? Even with no vaccine, that would make sense.
Looks great, but artificially ends in October. The model is javascript and runs in a browser, so you can actually edit to to run past October - which gives you this:
The argument is that until there is a actual vaccine, all social distancing is doing is kicking the can down the road.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but this reads like a 'They're lying to you! They're just putting off the problem!'
That's exactly the point. No institution advocating social distancing says that's going to seriously reduce (and certainly not stop) the infections, it's entirely about reducing the infections at any given time.
But no one is seriously suggesting (yet) that the country-wide lockdowns continue until a vaccine is developed - which is probably a year out, right? Unless that is the plan, and I don't think it's been said it is, then what difference does it make whether we overwhelm hospitals and spike fatalities now, or in October?
I mean, the chances I am missing something are pretty good.
Because by October we'll have procured more beds, ventilators, protective equipment etc.
Even if it still ends up overloaded, it will still be in a better position to treat more people than if it were overloaded now.
Plus by that time we might not have a cure or vaccine, but more drugs might have been found which reduce the severity and increase the recovery rate. Plus there will be more general awareness/training and experience within the medical staff. So they will better know the warning signs to watch out for in those suffering as well as know what treatments to best apply for a given situation.
Marxist artist wrote: I see all these countries I.e the UK predicting a total of 20000 deaths , is there a world prediction?
Nope. I'd even say it's impossible to make as it depends on development of the disease in poorer south half of the planet, though Bolsonaro and co do everything they can the problem even exists and to make it explode.
What is really scary is that Brazilian indigenous tribes outright begged for closure of their regions (due to them having little immunity to foreign diseases) and so far had been denied. I wouldn't be surprised if Bolsonaro's government (who put a man who thinks tribes should be forcibly christianized, diseases be damned in charge) used the Covid to get rid of them. After all, land is valuable, and who will hear of village with little outside contact being gone?
Marxist artist wrote: Very true, lran, N Korea and China are likely to fudge numbers.
Yup, because rest of the world has no interest in doing so, eh?
Take Italy, who have such high count mostly due to testing everyone and counting as accurately as possible - then you have say France and Germany, who don't bother testing most of ambiguous cases and let them fall through the cracks (you died in geriatric unit? must be old age, no Covid here, move along), USA, where outside of NY little testing is being done and as much as 3/4 of Covid deaths are wrongly attributed, or Poland/Hungary where governments outright deny most of Covid deaths have happened and try to attribute it to anything (up to 'sudden heart attacks') to massage stats.
Hell, Poland is especially depressing because government is trying to force elections to happen 10th May (as their electorate is less scared of Covid than the opposition, not to mention being more rural, so they calculate it will give them a boost) and actively trying to bury any bad news that might prevent it...
Voss wrote: Personally, since delivery services are becoming more essential for large segments of the population, I find leveraging the pandemic for a pay raise by threatening to leave people without access to essential food and medicine deliveries to be fairly disgusting. Sorry, Granny Jill, we need more cash money before you get your meds this week. Hopefully you won't die, but honestly, we don't care as long as we get ours, right?
Times are tough all over. Prioritizing selfishness over helping others strikes me as the wrong road.
So, you think protests should only happen in lulls, when no one will be inconvenienced, and the protesters can be quietly disposed of without anyone ever hearing of the strike?
Hello, last time I checked, owner of Amazon, Bezos, has 130 billion dollars, built on ruthless exploitation of his workers with impossible work targets and minimal pay. If the dude lost 99% of his fortune, he would still have a billion, amount that makes most of the richest people in history look like a peasants. You're seriously defending that?
Hell, he spent 170 mln $ this year on grand, extravagant residence, which is coincidentally 10 mln more than Amazon pays in tax in a year thanks to tax dodging (if not outright cheating) and blatant brib-- lobbying to have taxes reduced to nothing on all levels. Gee, how dare protesters show their unbribled greed, he clearly has no penny to spare!
Orlanth wrote: I have a different take, and one I predicted from the start of this thread.
The pandemic will unlock societal change. The US is too corporate and right wing, low tier workers have too few rights compared to just about any modern democratic state.
I am sure Covid-19 will change the way the US approaches workers rights just the way Sandy Hook changed the way that we approached gun violence, and the Afghanistan War changed the way we approach the military-industrial context.
Looks great, but artificially ends in October. The model is javascript and runs in a browser, so you can actually edit to to run past October - which gives you this:
The argument is that until there is a actual vaccine, all social distancing is doing is kicking the can down the road.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but this reads like a 'They're lying to you! They're just putting off the problem!'
That's exactly the point. No institution advocating social distancing says that's going to seriously reduce (and certainly not stop) the infections, it's entirely about reducing the infections at any given time.
But no one is seriously suggesting (yet) that the country-wide lockdowns continue until a vaccine is developed - which is probably a year out, right? Unless that is the plan, and I don't think it's been said it is, then what difference does it make whether we overwhelm hospitals and spike fatalities now, or in October?
I mean, the chances I am missing something are pretty good. Maybe the idea is to dramatically ramp up healthcare availability in parallel? Even with no vaccine, that would make sense.
The UK government have been open (after initial hubris) about pretty substantial levels of social distancing continuing for more than a year. The ICL publication that shifted policy here suggested 18 months. Government briefing two nights ago said up to six months for this phase of it, after which we'll probably see gradual reintroduction of normality, then back to distancing, then back and forth in tandem with peaks and troughs in infection. I'm not so up to date with what other nations are saying.
Personally, since delivery services are becoming more essential for large segments of the population, I find leveraging the pandemic for a pay raise by threatening to leave people without access to essential food and medicine deliveries to be fairly disgusting. Sorry, Granny Jill, we need more cash money before you get your meds this week. Hopefully you won't die, but honestly, we don't care as long as we get ours, right?
Times are tough all over. Prioritizing selfishness over helping others strikes me as the wrong road.
You understand the protest isn't about pay raises, but for proper precautions against COVID infection in the workplace, right? So far, Amazon has refused to clean their warehouses after confirmed COVID infections, until staff walkouts happened.
Ouze wrote: But no one is seriously suggesting (yet) that the country-wide lockdowns continue until a vaccine is developed - which is probably a year out, right?
A recent industry newsletter I read (I work in pharma) suggested 18-24 months is a safer bet for a vaccine. You really have to make sure a vax won't MAKE people sick. Clinical development is a grind, not a sprint. Can't cut corners, even in the face of a pandemic.
On the treatment front, there are a couple antivirals that might be available late 2020...IF they pan out in the trials. IF. And regarding chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, here's what the same source said:
Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, possibly in combination with azithromycin have been touted as “game changers”; however, the data supporting these claims are either negative, derive from trials with questionable trial design and data interpretation, or are anecdotal in nature.
Been trying to have this conversation with people. Even as people finally seem to be accepting the seriousness of the virus, there's still this idea that things will be getting back to 'normal' in 3-6 months. Without a vax, there's probably no 'normal'. And treatments may be very limited or non-existent for quite some time. The actions being taken now are about preventing a catastrophe and giving countries a chance to ramp up and fight this thing for a good while.
Looks great, but artificially ends in October. The model is javascript and runs in a browser, so you can actually edit to to run past October - which gives you this:
The argument is that until there is a actual vaccine, all social distancing is doing is kicking the can down the road.
It would be interesting to run that model for deaths instead of infections with different assumptions through 2 years (vaccine timeline?) and figure out how to minimize the overall area under the curve (which is what matters). Of course given the number of uncontrollable variables it would mainly be good for general trends rather than perfect actions. I bet though that flattening too much early is not the way to minimize the deaths.
In some ways it seems that government mitigation strategy will hopefully lead to fewer deaths even if it leads to more infections since until you have a vaxxine your biggest gains are going to be in treatment.
PS how could anyone look at that second chart that ends in Oct and not immediately go WTF, infection is obviously increasing at the end.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Not to mention the other advantage of limiting infection vectors helps mitigate the risk of it mutating into yet another iteration.
Fighting one is bad enough, but a second strain would only compound matters.
There were at least two strains in China, haven't seen where anyone has looked outside of China.
Kilkrazy wrote: The Mask/No Nask hypothesis is disproved by the fact that Korea's infection curve was as sharp as any of the No Mask nation's, and it's a famously mask-wearing nation like Japan.
I don't think that's a fair generalization of Korea, at least. They got caught by surprise early by that large church meeting in close quarters, without masks, and infecting hundreds of people to seed the nation before they were ready. The fact that they then completely demolished the curve after those cases were dealt with would only add to the mask argument, not detract from it.
At the Very least, we know it can make a person 5x less likely to get sick if in the vicinity of someone who is positive. Of course washing hands, not touching your face, also obviously help. But to say it's been disproved or doesn't help just isn't factual. There are lots of reasons why it can't be implemented in a large country like the US, of course (lack of masks, different culture, etc). But that's very different from saying it wasn't a factor in the strategy of those very successful countries.
An N95 mask will give you x5 protection. Most people wear the standard kind of surgical mask. This doesn't give protection. It does help stop the spray of droplets when you cough or sneeze, but the virus is often being spread by people who are asymptomatic, and only breathing out small particles which aren't trapped by a standard surgical mask. Plus, because the surgical mask doesn't stop small particles, once you've coughed into it, subsequent coughs start to push tiny droplets through.
On the whole the possible benefits of masks need to be balanced against the dangers, such as giving people confidence to go out. We already know that when people feel safer, they behave more dangerously.
When looking at Korea and masks, we should also consider that they rapidly instituted a lockdown, mass testing, mass public sanitatisation, and fast tracking and isolation of victims. They even have an app which tells you where victims have been, so you can tell if you've been in the same area, so you know to get tested.
Tokyo, which is a mad keen mask wearing city, is currently experiencing a resurgence of the virus since stopping their isolation.
Kilkrazy wrote: When looking at Korea and masks, we should also consider that they rapidly instituted a lockdown, mass testing, mass public sanitatisation, and fast tracking and isolation of victims. They even have an app which tells you where victims have been, so you can tell if you've been in the same area, so you know to get tested.
Right! They built for this, and that's why they wrangled it so quickly after the initial outbreak with the church. We're talking about years of planning, organizing, stockpiling, etc.
So to chalk it all up to masks...lol ok. That's exactly the kind of Simple Solution! thinking based on faulty reasoning that we don't need right now.
RiTides wrote: On masks, here's Dr. Fauci's take from yesterday. They're considering it, and I'm sure it would help, but logistically just not sure it could be pulled off in the US:
"Doctors and other health workers who spoke to Bloomberg described surprising numbers of younger patients who needed life-saving care. ... “It’s young folks, previously healthy,” said Eric Wei, an emergency room doctor and chief quality officer at NYC Health + Hospitals, the city’s public hospital system. “They look like they have the flu. Within hours, they need oxygen. Within a few more hours they need a ventilator.”
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/many-new-york-coronavirus-patients-are-young-surprising-doctors-1.1415881
gorgon wrote: there's still this idea that things will be getting back to 'normal' in 3-6 months.
It may well do if herd immunity has kicked in by that point. Estimates of infection in London are already at 5% or more of the population. If that keeps up, enough people will be probably be immune towards October time that the risk will be substantially reduced and the country beginning to function again. If half the population has had it and recovered, then that's half the population which can go back to work without fear of infection or being super-spreaders, or anything of the like. Sure, they can still spread it on their hands, but they won't be coughing or anything.
No, I suspect in six months time the primary concern will be on keeping the elderly and vulnerable safe and quarantined off, rather than on restraining the movements of the population more generally. It's much easier to place restrictions on care homes and arrange supply drops for anyone over 70/with respiratory issues than it is to keep the economic blood of the country permanently suppressed.
My opinion would be to keep them all on there, except any that may need critical care, for obvious reasons. Have clean medical crew in protective gear go in and perform testing, and take in supplies. once you've had the antibody test and passed, you can leave.
Apparently they cant. I was expecting there to be some sort of filtration and isolation system that could keep the infection in one place. Don't they have chem filters on airchannels? don't they have sealed doors? Do carriers have NBC protection?
Orlanth wrote: I have a different take, and one I predicted from the start of this thread.
The pandemic will unlock societal change. The US is too corporate and right wing, low tier workers have too few rights compared to just about any modern democratic state.
I am sure Covid-19 will change the way the US approaches workers rights just the way Sandy Hook changed the way that we approached gun violence, and the Afghanistan War changed the way we approach the military-industrial context.
As the kids today say..... oof.
Sadly, I think Ouze is right.
Sandy Hook didnt shut down the borders, and the Afghanistan War didn't turn urban centres into ghost towns.
This is BIG CHANGE. There is a lot of leverage to be garnered by a popular movement.
I'm not a sailor so I couldn't say, but I wouldn't bet on it. And if they did, they would be for chemical warfare agents rather than viruses. And how likely is a chemical attack at sea? Not going to be very effective... That's why they need to hot box that ship, until everyone has had it and passes the antibody test.
Overread wrote: Plus by that time we might not have a cure or vaccine, but more drugs might have been found which reduce the severity and increase the recovery rate. Plus there will be more general awareness/training and experience within the medical staff. So they will better know the warning signs to watch out for in those suffering as well as know what treatments to best apply for a given situation.
90% of hospital staff will have likely had it by then , so there will be fewer shortages and perhaps slightly easier work conditions.
Orlanth wrote: I have a different take, and one I predicted from the start of this thread.
The pandemic will unlock societal change. The US is too corporate and right wing, low tier workers have too few rights compared to just about any modern democratic state.
I am sure Covid-19 will change the way the US approaches workers rights just the way Sandy Hook changed the way that we approached gun violence, and the Afghanistan War changed the way we approach the military-industrial context.
Which is sad, but almost certainly true. The death of thousands, or even millions, is nothing compared to the power of partisan political identity.
gorgon wrote: there's still this idea that things will be getting back to 'normal' in 3-6 months.
It may well do if herd immunity has kicked in by that point. Estimates of infection in London are already at 5% or more of the population. If that keeps up, enough people will be probably be immune towards October time that the risk will be substantially reduced and the country beginning to function again. If half the population has had it and recovered, then that's half the population which can go back to work without fear of infection or being super-spreaders, or anything of the like. Sure, they can still spread it on their hands, but they won't be coughing or anything.
No, I suspect in six months time the primary concern will be on keeping the elderly and vulnerable safe and quarantined off, rather than on restraining the movements of the population more generally. It's much easier to place restrictions on care homes and arrange supply drops for anyone over 70/with respiratory issues than it is to keep the economic blood of the country permanently suppressed.
Looks great, but artificially ends in October. The model is javascript and runs in a browser, so you can actually edit to to run past October - which gives you this:
The argument is that until there is a actual vaccine, all social distancing is doing is kicking the can down the road.
Ah... kicking the can down the road until there is a vaccine is pretty much the whole plan. Anything else results in that big spike overwhelming health care systems leading to mass numbers of dead. Not just - -or even primarily - people killed by the virus, but from all other causes that will be unable to get any care because hospitals are either a) full of corona victims, b) unstaffed because all the practicioners are sick with the Corona virus, or c) empty except for the dead and dying because the staff ran for their lives when the protective gear runs out.
And if you think the economy is struggling NOW, wait until you see what the economy does THEN with millions of dead consumers no longer consuming.
Orlanth wrote: I have a different take, and one I predicted from the start of this thread.
The pandemic will unlock societal change. The US is too corporate and right wing, low tier workers have too few rights compared to just about any modern democratic state.
I am sure Covid-19 will change the way the US approaches workers rights just the way Sandy Hook changed the way that we approached gun violence, and the Afghanistan War changed the way we approach the military-industrial context.
Which is sad, but almost certainly true. The death of thousands, or even millions, is nothing compared to the power of partisan political identity.
Fear is stronger, need stronger yet.
Lockdown will tip millions over the edge. They have a voice and the vote. If it gets bad enough there will not be enough lobbyists money in the world to stop it.
Examples from history were given, pandemics shake nations, corporate feudalism is not as strong as actual feudalism, which was dealt a death blow by the plague. Now the Black Death was a different scale of crisis, but that doesn't matter, its not the number of deaths but the death of the economy which matters. COVID-19 has every chance to collapse the economy, already countries are spending unprecedented sums on combating the disease, and the bailouts can only go on so long, if the virus outlasts them you get economic collapse, when you get economic collapse you get the middle class on the breadline. The political status quo wont matter then. Society is only one week away from breakdown, we might actually get that week.
Orlanth wrote: I have a different take, and one I predicted from the start of this thread.
The pandemic will unlock societal change. The US is too corporate and right wing, low tier workers have too few rights compared to just about any modern democratic state.
I am sure Covid-19 will change the way the US approaches workers rights just the way Sandy Hook changed the way that we approached gun violence, and the Afghanistan War changed the way we approach the military-industrial context.
Which is sad, but almost certainly true. The death of thousands, or even millions, is nothing compared to the power of partisan political identity.
Fear is stronger, need stronger yet.
Lockdown will tip millions over the edge. They have a voice and the vote. If it gets bad enough there will not be enough lobbyists money in the world to stop it.
Examples from history were given, pandemics shake nations, corporate feudalism is not as strong as actual feudalism, which was dealt a death blow by the plague. Now the Black Death was a different scale of crisis, but that doesn't matter, its not the number of deaths but the death of the economy which matters. COVID-19 has every chance to collapse the economy, already countries are spending unprecedented sums on combating the disease, and the bailouts can only go on so long, if the virus outlasts them you get economic collapse, when you get economic collapse you get the middle class on the breadline. The political status quo wont matter then. Society is only one week away from breakdown, we might actually get that week.
I don't think you quite get it.
Here in America, roughly 80% of the voters identifies itself first and foremost by PARTY. And even the 'left' party is, at best, centerist to center RIGHT and just as dependent on political donations by big business to risk alienating them as the conservative right. This is a stark contrast to other nations that have a genuine left party to balance the right and generally don't allow their political process to be dominated by corporate money.
That's why things that other western nations accept as simple common sense get labeled DA EBIL SOCIALIZM! in America.
And because of the divide over partisan identity, it's quite possible that there will never BE a full-bore government lockdown in America. One side is pushing for an increasing level of isolation and would certainly support it in time. The other side will then certainly reject all such measures solely and entirely BECAUSE their political opposition is supporting it.
I mean, we have people in this country who say 'I'm a Republican, I hate Democrats, Democrats hate pollution, so I LOVE POLLUTION! ROLLING COAL FOR THE WIN!' after all. And people just as stupid the other way around, although they lack such a publicly visible demonstration of their stupidity.
Orlanth wrote: Fear is stronger, need stronger yet.
Lockdown will tip millions over the edge. They have a voice and the vote. If it gets bad enough there will not be enough lobbyists money in the world to stop it.
I think you will turn out to be wrong but hope you turn out to be right.
Without getting into the specific thread-locking political weeds, I think it's pretty self evident to literally everyone at this point that some of the things we do in the US are simply unsustainable and well past their sell-by date.
Here in America, roughly 80% of the voters identifies itself first and foremost by PARTY. And even the 'left' party is, at best, centerist to center RIGHT and just as dependent on political donations by big business to risk alienating them as the conservative right. This is a stark contrast to other nations that have a genuine left party to balance the right and generally don't allow their political process to be dominated by corporate money.
And because of the divide over partisan identity, it's quite possible that there will never BE a full-bore government lockdown in America. One side is pushing for an increasing level of isolation and would certainly support it in time. The other side will then certainly reject all such measures solely and entirely BECAUSE their political opposition is supporting it.
That's the 'beauty' in what an elemental force provides, it cares not about your affiliations.
Middle class Americans suffered in the Great Depression, the result was New Deal and the clock was frozen for a while on the advance of the plutocracy and some gains were made in rights for the poorest.
Never underestimate the power of the base needs of the proletariat.
Oh I totally agree. Not only are we a tourist hub on Spring Break, we're also overflowing with vulnerable population, with major urban centers. The overwhelming consensus is that this was long overdue.
It also is eerily similar to the early stages of a Jaws or Piranha style horror movie when they refused to close down. I really hope our outcome is better! Fortunately, our mayors took matters into their own hands in many cases- our county has been in 'safer-athome' for 2 weeks already.
Gitzbitah wrote: Florida is on a 30 day stay at home order as of Thursday at midnight. We're at 7,000 confirmed cases and 87 deaths. Let our battle of avoidance begin!
Spoiler:
We've been doing that already for a month or more. Had to check to see what the feed store situation is but I guess the sent out an email last month explaining they were essential.
Which is good because I really don't want to risk a whole month animal feed to moisture damage in my shed.
On the plus side I did just order a bunch of minis to start an Imperial Guard army. So I have a lot to focus on.
Sadly two of the boxes I order are coming from Italy so not telling if or when they will arrive. There's been no tracking so I don't know if they've been able to ship or not. As long as they get here at some point I guess.
I have been definitely getting my painting backlog processed. There is literally nowhere to go. In fact, I am so concerned with the progress I am making into the Pile Of Shame that I ordered some SoB kits, so I can have another unfinished army.
The cool thing about mostly working from home is not having to drive to work. The downside is I don't feel like I am ever off work. I only have my short break, and my long break.
I know it is a poor thing to complain about when so many people who cannot work remote have simply been laid off unpaid instead.
Ouze wrote: I have been definitely getting my painting backlog processed. There is literally nowhere to go. In fact, I am so concerned with the progress I am making into the Pile Of Shame that I ordered some SoB kits, so I can have another unfinished army.
The cool thing about mostly working from home is not having to drive to work. The downside is I don't feel like I am ever off work. I only have my short break, and my long break.
I know it is a poor thing to complain about when so many people who cannot work remote have simply been laid off unpaid instead.
Or still working with basically no safeguards against infection, including no way to do their job without being in close proximity to other people inside enclosed spaces because their bosses are fething scumbags.
Orlanth wrote: I have a different take, and one I predicted from the start of this thread.
The pandemic will unlock societal change. The US is too corporate and right wing, low tier workers have too few rights compared to just about any modern democratic state.
I am sure Covid-19 will change the way the US approaches workers rights just the way Sandy Hook changed the way that we approached gun violence, and the Afghanistan War changed the way we approach the military-industrial context.
As the kids today say..... oof.
Sadly, I think Ouze is right.
I disagree, this will have more of an impact than those things. Because deaths are one thing; if they happen close to you it is a big deal but outside that it is ultimately a statistic. People move past it because their lives are not directly affected. Morality puts a shockingly small dent in policy.
Ouze wrote: I have been definitely getting my painting backlog processed. There is literally nowhere to go. In fact, I am so concerned with the progress I am making into the Pile Of Shame that I ordered some SoB kits, so I can have another unfinished army.
The cool thing about mostly working from home is not having to drive to work. The downside is I don't feel like I am ever off work. I only have my short break, and my long break.
I know it is a poor thing to complain about when so many people who cannot work remote have simply been laid off unpaid instead.
Or still working with basically no safeguards against infection, including no way to do their job without being in close proximity to other people inside enclosed spaces because their bosses are fething scumbags.
Or those of us stuck overseas working in a 3rd world country away from even wife and kids.
Ouze wrote: I have been definitely getting my painting backlog processed. There is literally nowhere to go. In fact, I am so concerned with the progress I am making into the Pile Of Shame that I ordered some SoB kits, so I can have another unfinished army.
The cool thing about mostly working from home is not having to drive to work. The downside is I don't feel like I am ever off work. I only have my short break, and my long break.
I know it is a poor thing to complain about when so many people who cannot work remote have simply been laid off unpaid instead.
Or still working with basically no safeguards against infection, including no way to do their job without being in close proximity to other people inside enclosed spaces because their bosses are fething scumbags.
Or those of us stuck overseas working in a 3rd world country away from even wife and kids.
Aye, please be careful and take care of yourself.
This situation is definitely showing the difference between the managerial class and the working class. Work from home for the former, layoffs, firings, and unsafe conditions for the latter.
Ouze wrote: I have been definitely getting my painting backlog processed. There is literally nowhere to go. In fact, I am so concerned with the progress I am making into the Pile Of Shame that I ordered some SoB kits, so I can have another unfinished army.
The cool thing about mostly working from home is not having to drive to work. The downside is I don't feel like I am ever off work. I only have my short break, and my long break.
I know it is a poor thing to complain about when so many people who cannot work remote have simply been laid off unpaid instead.
Or still working with basically no safeguards against infection, including no way to do their job without being in close proximity to other people inside enclosed spaces because their bosses are fething scumbags.
Or those of us stuck overseas working in a 3rd world country away from even wife and kids.
Aye, please be careful and take care of yourself.
This situation is definitely showing the difference between the managerial class and the working class. Work from home for the former, layoffs, firings, and unsafe conditions for the latter.
Had one of those "managerial" class kind of people tell me today that no one is allowed out for any reason, I tried to explain to her that people need to earn money regardless of the risk, she said that the government would pay them and no matter how many times I tried to explain that would take time and these people need money now she just could not get it, nevermind that she was wrong about not being allowed out in the first place.
That's the sort of idiots that we have though.. Its staggering that people are too dumb to realise that they're not mandated to remain locked in their homes. You are allowed to leave, and are not required to give an excuse to do so, although I've seen a disturbing article recently where fines were handed out to a woman, in what seems to me to be a breach of the powers set out in the new bill.
Ahh the classic.
Aka the architect going to the plumber in a construction Site complaining about the plumbing, whilest you have to explain to the architect that no, that does not work and yes the Plan ist incorrect due to elevation......
Many companies HIRE managers. IMO that is already a mistake; they should be PROMOTING people to manager. Some companies have that figured out, and it shows. Does not help as much when promotions are done poorly, but still.
Kilkrazy wrote: The Mask/No Nask hypothesis is disproved by the fact that Korea's infection curve was as sharp as any of the No Mask nation's, and it's a famously mask-wearing nation like Japan.
I don't think that's a fair generalization of Korea, at least. They got caught by surprise early by that large church meeting in close quarters, without masks, and infecting hundreds of people to seed the nation before they were ready. The fact that they then completely demolished the curve after those cases were dealt with would only add to the mask argument, not detract from it.
At the Very least, we know it can make a person 5x less likely to get sick if in the vicinity of someone who is positive. Of course washing hands, not touching your face, also obviously help. But to say it's been disproved or doesn't help just isn't factual. There are lots of reasons why it can't be implemented in a large country like the US, of course (lack of masks, different culture, etc). But that's very different from saying it wasn't a factor in the strategy of those very successful countries.
An N95 mask will give you x5 protection. Most people wear the standard kind of surgical mask. This doesn't give protection. It does help stop the spray of droplets when you cough or sneeze, but the virus is often being spread by people who are asymptomatic, and only breathing out small particles which aren't trapped by a standard surgical mask. Plus, because the surgical mask doesn't stop small particles, once you've coughed into it, subsequent coughs start to push tiny droplets through.
If a standard surgical mask gives no protection, that is ultimately a good thing. Because while it does not block everything it will definitely block some airborne particles, and it means those particles cannot carry the virus. If they did, then blocking them would offer at least some protection. If they do not, it means everyone is completely safe from anything they would be blocking.
Ouze wrote: I have been definitely getting my painting backlog processed. There is literally nowhere to go. In fact, I am so concerned with the progress I am making into the Pile Of Shame that I ordered some SoB kits, so I can have another unfinished army.
The cool thing about mostly working from home is not having to drive to work. The downside is I don't feel like I am ever off work. I only have my short break, and my long break.
I know it is a poor thing to complain about when so many people who cannot work remote have simply been laid off unpaid instead.
Yeah lockdown sure helps fighting pile of grey plastic
Though I actually started whole new hobby while at it. Oil painting canvases Bob Ross style. Though good news is that's expensive enough that it won't take that much time. Suddenly miniatures start to feel like cheap hobby With oil painting 50e goes in a day easily.
In corona news UK gets whopping 30 UK built ventilators this week. Good job UK.
Considering that cutting out commuting can be 2 hours or more saved from a persons day I can see management and other not-essential-on-site workers pushing for more work at home options.
It might even start to become a more common thing, especially for families as employees and employers find that yes staff can work and be productive from home. Making a saving on travel, car and care costs.
Ouze wrote: I have been definitely getting my painting backlog processed. There is literally nowhere to go. In fact, I am so concerned with the progress I am making into the Pile Of Shame that I ordered some SoB kits, so I can have another unfinished army.
The cool thing about mostly working from home is not having to drive to work. The downside is I don't feel like I am ever off work. I only have my short break, and my long break.
I know it is a poor thing to complain about when so many people who cannot work remote have simply been laid off unpaid instead.
Yeah lockdown sure helps fighting pile of grey plastic
Though I actually started whole new hobby while at it. Oil painting canvases Bob Ross style. Though good news is that's expensive enough that it won't take that much time. Suddenly miniatures start to feel like cheap hobby With oil painting 50e goes in a day easily.
In corona news UK gets whopping 30 UK built ventilators this week. Good job UK.
Aren't those just the prototypes/early production models for testing/approval before they go nuts with manufacturing? And isn't that number just from one consortium producing them?
It's one of those numbers games where every different publication picks a different angle and slant on things and reports subtle different bits. Some reporting early estimations; others the total order; others the expected production scale; others extrapolating numbers; others mixing up the numbers. Also that was only the UK number; they didn't say what the overseas orders were totalling; nor the distribution etc...
Overread wrote: Considering that cutting out commuting can be 2 hours or more saved from a persons day I can see management and other not-essential-on-site workers pushing for more work at home options.
It might even start to become a more common thing, especially for families as employees and employers find that yes staff can work and be productive from home. Making a saving on travel, car and care costs.
My job is doing kind of a weird thing. We're designated federally critical employees so we're definitely still working. Since I work in IT, we can do pretty much all of it remote, and practice just that a bunch of times per year.
But they still want people coming into the building for reasons they haven't been able to adequately explain, so I'm still physically going into work every other week, along with another person because they don't want anyone there alone for safety reasons. So I'm in a weird middle ground where we're still probably all going to get infected anyway, but more slowly.
My guess is once we have the first positive case in my building, we'll be 100% remote. We already had a positive case in a fairly close location.
Working from home, but if someone lags behind, they'll be called back to office. I don't think they quite got the idea as to why work from home was implemented?
Overread wrote: Considering that cutting out commuting can be 2 hours or more saved from a persons day I can see management and other not-essential-on-site workers pushing for more work at home options.
It might even start to become a more common thing, especially for families as employees and employers find that yes staff can work and be productive from home. Making a saving on travel, car and care costs.
Hopefully. It wasn't until I started working from home during this that I realised how miserable having to commute in and back out was making me. It's not even that far (Knowle in south Bristol into the city centre) but unreliable bus services, being stuck in traffic with no seat, said traffic turning a 20-30 minute journey into over an hour (especially on the way back when I just want to get home) etc. just makes it grind me down over time.
I'm no less productive at home, most of the time my team are all communicating over messaging software anyway, even when we are in the office! Since I fall into the criteria of vulnerable to covid-19 I'll see about dragging out working from home as long as possible. Hopefully I can persuade management to let me work remotely going forwards even after this has all blown over, at the very least for a couple of days a week.
Here in America, roughly 80% of the voters identifies itself first and foremost by PARTY. And even the 'left' party is, at best, centerist to center RIGHT and just as dependent on political donations by big business to risk alienating them as the conservative right. This is a stark contrast to other nations that have a genuine left party to balance the right and generally don't allow their political process to be dominated by corporate money.
And because of the divide over partisan identity, it's quite possible that there will never BE a full-bore government lockdown in America. One side is pushing for an increasing level of isolation and would certainly support it in time. The other side will then certainly reject all such measures solely and entirely BECAUSE their political opposition is supporting it.
That's the 'beauty' in what an elemental force provides, it cares not about your affiliations.
Middle class Americans suffered in the Great Depression, the result was New Deal and the clock was frozen for a while on the advance of the plutocracy and some gains were made in rights for the poorest.
Never underestimate the power of the base needs of the proletariat.
I'd argue that it's also the petite bourgeoisie of the middle class being prodded down to the proletariat's level. People who are used to a comfortable lifestyle can get rather angry when it gets ripped away from them after all. The same people who voted for the "leopards eating people's faces party" as long as the leopard ate the faces of the lower class and left them alone will get mightily upset when the leopard looks at their face and drools.
Man, that was a strange way to agree with someone.
Future War Cultist wrote: I know that there’s bigger things to worry about atm (I know some people on death’s door ) but I wonder, will GW survive this?
Quite a few tears will not be shed..
Why the Heck is the UK recovery rate so low? Its hardly moved compared to constantly rising deaths.
The UK death to recovery rate is worrying, however it might also be because its still in the early stages so a lot of those on the infected path still have a week or more till estimated recovery (2 or more weeks is a long time). Another aspect is age and health of those infected. It might be the high and rising death toll is in the older and pre-existing condition segment of the infected, whilst those who are not being killed by it are yet to properly recover.
Future War Cultist wrote: I know that there’s bigger things to worry about atm (I know some people on death’s door ) but I wonder, will GW survive this?
GW holds almost no debt because they fund expansion with profits rather than loans/overdrafts. So in theory they can weather this storm better than a lot of other companies. Furthermore they can dip into savings that they've got lined up for quite a while or even sell off highstreet store sites if they really have too (though prices are not likely to be good right now). Basically they've got a good few options to survive. Plus once things start to reboot theyv'e got a hungry market that will likely repeat what the supermarkets have been experiencing- ergo boom sales.
What's killing off a lot of businesses is that many operate very close to the line right now. They basically only survive week/month to week/month. They don't have four months worth of operational savings to tide them over etc... They don't have large reserves to restock if their suppliers all shut down and demand is still there. Even with government pay-outs they can still be on the wrong side of earning. That's before we touch on debts. A lot of companies start and expand by taking out loans and such; whilst I'm sure some loans are getting delayed right now; it can be those kind of costs that can cripple a company when the economy takes a downturn. Because they've still got to make repayments and it only takes one company calling in a loan and demanding payment to cause a company to go into administration because they simply don't have the funds to pay.
I'd say GW is in a healthy position sitting on a very strong bed of profits and investments that gives them flexibility to survive this event. They've also a loyal customerbase that will start up again in full force once they can resume production and trading. So GW can look to make fast sales to recover their losses.
Future War Cultist wrote: I know that there’s bigger things to worry about atm (I know some people on death’s door ) but I wonder, will GW survive this?
I imagine Gw will survive, unless they no longer keep money in the bank. As long as money is still worth something when this is over enough for business I think they'll be ok.
GW will be fine BUT...a lot of the smaller local game shops probably won't, and this will probably be the death blow to a lot of comics shops too.
Among many, many other things, the Geek Landscape will probably be greatly altered too, once things return to whatever the New Normal ends up becoming.
They're going to remove about 2700 sailors of the Roosevelt. They're not leaving Guam. They're trying to put them in hotels but... A lot of GP medium tents and cots are being prepped for shipment with AC units. Seems they're staying on Navy property or maybe a unused runway at Anderson AFB there. Hardly any B52's there now
Oh and Queen Ann Revenge. Saw the movies and lived the life in the US Army. Your EoD. I was Movement Coordinator. Retired. Also I did three years as a SurgTech in the OR room so I've a little bit of medical background. Work now as a DoD civilian as a Movement Coordinator with the US Navy. USS Nimitz sitting right outside my window. Which today the crew went into self isolation. They moved a medical barge right by it. The entire pier is sealed off. Seawolf crew had 8 iffy possible but they came out from underwater right into allergy season. So far as we know no one has the 19 that works on base including Bangor. Though both bases are literally Ghost towns. USS Lincoln (San Diego) done the same as USS Nimitz and USS Carl Vinson in drydock.
As for carriers protection against NBC warfare. The first three confirm cases were flown to Guam. Next thing is we now have over 80 confirm cases. Confine living space and work areas. Pretty much face to butt wake up moments from my time on a carrier (was weird I know, MCT team on a carrier but damn the food was good). So pretty much the entire crew been exposed to it. So removing the 2700 crew from Roosevelt they can actually deep clean and I mean deep clean the Roosevelt. Crux of the matter. Reinfection. Catch 22. The time it was spreading around the crew (USS Roosevelt) not much was known about the pandemic in SE Asia. They think they picked it up at Vietnam. It did spend a week in Manila before Vietnam. First case with the incubation time placed it at Vietnam.
Luzon Philippines under locked down same as Manila.
Phuket Thailand is locked down. They had 15 min warning before the Thai Army locked the bridge down
Sasebo and Yokosuka Japan. Iwukani(?) actually Okinawa. Think Japan has it contain from the word we're getting. Also the same logistic chain is being used
FL we already know about but New Orleans also happen so its going to explode there. Think there is a reserve medical brigade there in the region.
Ireland looks grim.
Anyone know any Movement Coordinators in UK military I can trade talk with
We're looking at 18 to 24 months. There's a model of 36 month concerning mainly Logistics Hubs and alternate logistics Hubs but Hell we be at Road Warrior, TWD, and Black Death rolled into one.
Anyone with a Economist degree?
Edit
Trade one 5.56mm round for two Space Marines. If Ultra color its four then
Edit II
Wasn't Battlestar Galactica considered a carrier? SDF-1? Battleship Yamamoto was a hybrid.
Overread wrote: Considering that cutting out commuting can be 2 hours or more saved from a persons day I can see management and other not-essential-on-site workers pushing for more work at home options.
It might even start to become a more common thing, especially for families as employees and employers find that yes staff can work and be productive from home. Making a saving on travel, car and care costs.
The fun part is going to be when executives start realizing they don't actually need most of these people working from home, when they can have computer software and modern communications do most of the same work for way less ongoing expense...
Wasn't Battlestar Galactica considered a carrier? SDF-1? Battleship Yamamoto was a hybrid.
The battlestar Galactica was a carrier, in that it's fighters were it's main battery. It had some point defense and a few longer-ranged weapons, but really depended on it's fighters for it's striking power.
Intriguingly, the battlestar Pegasus seemed to be much more heavily armed. At the very least, it had the firepower to take out two basestars and chase off a third while it's fighters remained behind with Galactica.
The SDF's were effectively battleships that carried fighters for point defense. The fighters really weren't capable of taking on enemy ships on their own, that took the firepower of the ship's main guns. But the ship itself couldn't destroy enemy fighters and mecha fast enough to keep them at arm's length, thus the fighters. I suspect the same was true of Space Battleship Yamato.
Overread wrote: The UK death to recovery rate is worrying, however it might also be because its still in the early stages so a lot of those on the infected path still have a week or more till estimated recovery (2 or more weeks is a long time). Another aspect is age and health of those infected. It might be the high and rising death toll is in the older and pre-existing condition segment of the infected, whilst those who are not being killed by it are yet to properly recover.
I dont think the NHS is confirming recovery until it is medically certain. That is their way. It differs to a lot of other western countries so expect the recovered statistics to lag behind.
Automatically Appended Next Post: GW will almost certainly survive, however it might put limits on the retail arms recovery. Stores might not reopen and the business model may go online sales.
need to be careful about the numbers that are around
there is a difference between death by SARS-CoV2 and "death with"
also there are numbers for total death per day and those connected to Covid19
as for Italy, there are ~1600 dead per day under normal conditions
Covid19 adds to this numbers to a total of 2200-2400 per day and not all of them die directly because of SARS-CoV2 but because they cannot get the treatment they would need as the hospitals are way over their capacity and are therefore counted torwards the death toll for Covid19 (but not for death by SARS-CoV2)
Also, due to it damaging the lungs there can be a whole slew of other follow up sicknesses that are deadly which would not've been an issue before infection.
Future War Cultist wrote: I know that there’s bigger things to worry about atm (I know some people on death’s door ) but I wonder, will GW survive this?
Quite a few tears will not be shed..
Why the Heck is the UK recovery rate so low? Its hardly moved compared to constantly rising deaths.
Where's your screen shot from? Until recently the PHE dashboard had an asterisk next to the 135 figure explaining they are reviewing the methodology for calculating that figure, so weren't updating it.
Future War Cultist wrote: I know that there’s bigger things to worry about atm (I know some people on death’s door ) but I wonder, will GW survive this?
Well, looking at their financial releases? They should be pretty much fine. They’ve no debt to speak of, and quite a lot of cash in the bank.
Of course, that info is only a snapshot for a given time, and we know they’ve been establishing their second factory in Nottingham.
Overall, I’d say there’s a very, very low risk of them not emerging from this. They can pay their landlords (for the shops), and will likely be getting that Government assistance for staff wages.
In terms of Design Studio output? Depending on whether their software needs a specialist level of equipment or not, there could be delays on projects in the works. If not, I suspect the sculptors will be digitally sculpting from home.
How this might impact smaller war games companies? I know Mantic remain in operation (having seen their facilities firsthand, social distancing really shouldn’t be a problem, as it’s really quite spacious). Any others? They could be in for a rough ride if they can’t physically sell any units.
I must confess to being a little relieved to hear that. Obviously there’s bigger things going on atm but sometimes it’s the little things that matter. Would hate to have the makers of my favourite stuff killed off by something as ‘out there’ as this.
Work’s getting better too. No longer working with the robot (I didn’t even have to ask!) but we are down to a skeleton staff and it shows. The hardest part is...everywhere is now closed. So trying to grab a drink or something to eat or chewing gum or even somewhere to go to the toilet is very difficult.
Gee dubs won't go under. Even if they did, there's plenty of demand, and huge potential profits, that someone would take up the mantle and get it running again.
And yeah, GW would live on regardless. I have to say, with what I know now, they’re a very well run company. They had issues in the past but they’re really on top of things and not getting into debt is clever. Why couldn’t the British car industry have been like that.
Future War Cultist wrote: I must confess to being a little relieved to hear that. Obviously there’s bigger things going on atm but sometimes it’s the little things that matter. Would hate to have the makers of my favourite stuff killed off by something as ‘out there’ as this.
The little things do matter. I'm worried for a lot of the little UK craftspeople from whom I try to buy most clothes, for instance. A lot of them are gonna go under. Also: PUBS. GW are a powerhouse though, have a pretty substantial captive market, big profit margins and aren't hugely reliant on any other precarious businesses or industries. They'll be fine.
The FLGS and venues that host a lot of gaming clubs, though, a lot of them will be in trouble. So the gaming landscape could change for a fair old while, even after the social distancing relaxes.
The mismanagement of the UK response is really gaining traction in the UK press, even amongst the staunch pro-government outlets (only really the Express left backing them on CV strategy). Hopefully this sees the PPE and testing that NHS facilities are screaming for across the board finally getting fulfilled.
I still think the initial approach was legitimately following expert advice, but since that expert advice changed (or different advice was accepted and the advisors retained, which, given how much Vallance and Whitty have been sidelined since the ICL publication, seems likely) there's been an appalling level of obfuscation, especially on testing.
pubs will always be around. it will be trying for owners for a while, but as soon as things get back to normal they will be booming as people flock back to them.
FLGS's that also have a webshop and/or sell things like puzzles will be fine, I think. People bored in quarantine will want something to do, and smart ones will jump in that gap.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: pubs will always be around. it will be trying for owners for a while, but as soon as things get back to normal they will be booming as people flock back to them.
Obviously pubs as a sector will be, and will boom as soon as people are allowed to frequent them again. Lots of individual pubs, especially independents, are going to collapse because they can't afford to sit it out until then.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: pubs will always be around. it will be trying for owners for a while, but as soon as things get back to normal they will be booming as people flock back to them.
Obviously pubs as a sector will be, and will boom as soon as people are allowed to frequent them again. Lots of individual pubs, especially independents, are going to collapse because they can't afford to sit it out until then.
This. What happens if all we're left with is Wetherspoons? *shudders*
Meh, I have nothing against wetherspoons. I prefer a traditional pub, but they're alright enough for a lunch when were out with our daughter.
More ridiculous measures being called for in the UK. Hearing calls for FPNs for people wearing masks in public, because it means the NHS doesn't have them.
Also seen a news story where people have been warned that they could be in trouble for buying 'non essential' items.
No country has correct numbers both in infected (They just don't test enough people) but specially, deaths, thats the most important one . From France that isn't counting the deaths of old people outside hospitals (In geriatrics for example), from Spain (You only need to see how this pandemic has aumented the number of "Non covid" deaths in the same period compared with the same period the year prior) from China or Iran (lol who believes they aren't fabricating the numbers), and cases like Germany that no one believes has so few deaths with so many infected.
Well, quitting my job. Tried to help but not only have I been screwed over for 7 days in a row now, with my dumb ass coworkers constantly coming to within 2 feet of me, but they also failed to pay me. So, I’m out. I’m done. Going into isolation with all the rest of you.
You do realize the numbers you need for real herd immunity, right?
I just knew that someone was going to read the words 'herd immunity', and rush to assume I was saying something other than what I actually am. Although in all fairness, I should have inserted the phrase 'begun kicking in' rather than 'kicked in'.
I'll restate for you. Once we hit 50% or so of the population having had it and thus being immune (not impossible six months from now judging from infection rates, the risks will be substantially reduced. Not eliminated. Not non-existent. Not 'Wahey, back to work everyone, party at mine'. Reduced.
Why? Because if half the population has had it, there is no risk of them spreading it through coughs, sneezes, saliva, or any of the numerous other body fluid related methods of transmission. They can stil carry it on surfaces, but there will be far less vectors for infection, and that segment of the population will thus be fit to resume employment (albeit with suitable hand washing and disinfection routines still in place).
In short, it becomes more of a game of 'stay home until you've had it' whilst the country begins shifting gear into partial lockdown (rather than full). After another three or four months, we'll start approaching 70-80% in terms of immunity, at which point it just becomes easier to initiate total lockdown and support measures solely for the vulnerable instead and let the rest of the country get on with things.
In short, it becomes more of a game of 'stay home until you've had it' whilst the country begins shifting gear into partial lockdown (rather than full). After another three or four months, we'll start approaching 70-80% in terms of immunity, at which point it just becomes easier to initiate total lockdown and support measures solely for the vulnerable instead and let the rest of the country get on with things.
I'd suggest that's a REALLY dangerous game to start playing. You essentially create a new class system, and encourage people to deliberately catch a virus so they can start living and earning again.
In short, it becomes more of a game of 'stay home until you've had it' whilst the country begins shifting gear into partial lockdown (rather than full). After another three or four months, we'll start approaching 70-80% in terms of immunity, at which point it just becomes easier to initiate total lockdown and support measures solely for the vulnerable instead and let the rest of the country get on with things.
I'd suggest that's a REALLY dangerous game to start playing. You essentially create a new class system, and encourage people to deliberately catch a virus so they can start loving and warning again.
So long as a vaccine is a year or more off, it's the natural end result.
And frankly, there's really no good reason once more than half the population has recovered to keep a full lockdown. That half of the population is fit, healthy, able to work, and immune to the virus. People are restive now, give it six months of being cooped up and guaranteed immunity? They'll be champing at the bit and nothing beyond draconian 'We'll shoot the lot of you' is going to keep them at home. Given the financial strain on the country by that point, it'll make good fiscal sense to start relaxing (not ending!) restrictions somewhat. Keep the social places closed, but start opening up the places of employment, etc.
Good news on the personal front - I tested negative! Finally can stop worrying about who we might have infected, and at least go to the grocery store again . Stay safe and healthy everybody
Future War Cultist wrote: Well, quitting my job. Tried to help but not only have I been screwed over for 7 days in a row now, with my dumb ass coworkers constantly coming to within 2 feet of me, but they also failed to pay me. So, I’m out. I’m done. Going into isolation with all the rest of you.
That sucks FWC, hope you get your money soon and find something better! For now, enjoy hiding inside with us, I guess!
Its business as usual for us here.
I've been starting to climb the walls not being able to pick up heavy things in the gym for 2 weeks, so i've been searching for solutions. today I've found some disused stropping chains at work.. tons of them. the box was heavy as hell, so I'm borrowing them. going to leave a load of them in my daysack for when I walk to and from work, then take the rest home to use for squats and loaded carries and whatever else I can figure out with them. if I can find a good branch on a tree for pull ups, and dig out my TRX handles for pulls, I should be able to cover most movements. cant be getting sedentary during this period.
Future War Cultist wrote: I know that there’s bigger things to worry about atm (I know some people on death’s door ) but I wonder, will GW survive this?
if any minis/games company does they will because they don't have a huge pile of debt dragging them down, no borrowing and owning almost all of their own kit puts them in a very strong position
if the economy tanks badly enough that nobody has enough disposable income for fun stuff then we'll have far too much to worry about just surviving to care
In short, it becomes more of a game of 'stay home until you've had it' whilst the country begins shifting gear into partial lockdown (rather than full). After another three or four months, we'll start approaching 70-80% in terms of immunity, at which point it just becomes easier to initiate total lockdown and support measures solely for the vulnerable instead and let the rest of the country get on with things.
I'd suggest that's a REALLY dangerous game to start playing. You essentially create a new class system, and encourage people to deliberately catch a virus so they can start loving and warning again.
So long as a vaccine is a year or more off, it's the natural end result.
And frankly, there's really no good reason once more than half the population has recovered to keep a full lockdown. That half of the population is fit, healthy, able to work, and immune to the virus. People are restive now, give it six months of being cooped up and guaranteed immunity? They'll be champing at the bit and nothing beyond draconian 'We'll shoot the lot of you' is going to keep them at home. Given the financial strain on the country by that point, it'll make good fiscal sense to start relaxing (not ending!) restrictions somewhat. Keep the social places closed, but start opening up the places of employment, etc.
Assuming it doesn’t mutate into yet another strain?
From my incredibly limited understanding of such things, it’s a genuine concern.
So today's grimdark fashion accessory is a crafts project -- that being, a bandana with a hepa filter (if I can pull this off technically) because I have as yet not got sick, far as I can tell, and I have to move to and from my job every day through public spaces.
So my current "protective posture" (civilian) mix is just that, an intake filtering mask and a pair of swim goggles. ( I REALLY trhink nobody is talking about putting on swim goggles to stop aerosol transmission to the eyes of something that floats in the air.)
My thought is that I will (once mask complete, and I may not get through that before work today) have a working barrier for eyes, ears, nose, that leaves my usual routine of paranoid handwashing as the only add on required.
Since this is a crafter guild forum, really, I will say the bandana is pure cotton and the hepa filter is planned to be ripped from the inside of an air filter replacement pack. I have a second bandana (in a very loud red white and blue pattern) to line the back of the mask with, in the hopes it can be flipped aroudn front to back or back to front.
I will be regenerating it between uses with 160 F heat at 20 minutes in the oven -- I have a spare oven I essentially don't use that is also self cleaning so I can allways set it to self clean a bit and make sure nothing remains in that environment. I am not sure yet how one would clean the goggles, which are plastic, optimally. It will be a likely experimental test using a wipedown with pure ethanol (purchased, as I always do and did, from the paint aisle of a store. If you folk are desperate for sanitizer, consdier looking in that section for something like "denatured pure ethanol".
Hopefully this gives me adequate protection against either incoming virus or (if I am asymptomatic and infected) adding anything to the problems of the world at large. Also hopefully, it gives me a chance to test if n100 is a good standard for brief use masks. (I will likely just break down and use the n95 till I get a chance to put this together, but I am definiete in moving to a higher ready/protect standard as things are on the more serious side.
N95 can also be regenerated at that temp range, so I am not worried about my current mask crapping out today or tomorrow.
Anyone have experiences building a similar mask? I am going for the "cowboy bandana" outer look, basically, some kind of cross between the masks you might imagine in the old west dust storm and the anime version of warhammer 40k.
Looks great, but artificially ends in October. The model is javascript and runs in a browser, so you can actually edit to to run past October - which gives you this:
The argument is that until there is a actual vaccine, all social distancing is doing is kicking the can down the road.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but this reads like a 'They're lying to you! They're just putting off the problem!'
That's exactly the point. No institution advocating social distancing says that's going to seriously reduce (and certainly not stop) the infections, it's entirely about reducing the infections at any given time.
But no one is seriously suggesting (yet) that the country-wide lockdowns continue until a vaccine is developed - which is probably a year out, right? Unless that is the plan, and I don't think it's been said it is, then what difference does it make whether we overwhelm hospitals and spike fatalities now, or in October?
I mean, the chances I am missing something are pretty good. Maybe the idea is to dramatically ramp up healthcare availability in parallel? Even with no vaccine, that would make sense.
The plan isn't to spike infections in October. These measures will continue until such time that the chance of the spike is severely reduced or eliminated entirely (i.e. a vaccine or a treatment which can be handed out like candy to everyone without the need for medical supervision is developed) or such time that medical systems are able to handle the spike. The model shows the spike in October because the model was only programmed to keep the social distancing efforts in place until then. The author contends that this is a case of dishonesty because the infections are being hidden in the future, there is an argument to be made there but they aren't intentionally deceitful - the models are largely developed by professionals for use with other professionals that understand the reality of the situation and how this all works, if the models are misleading its because the general public does not understand them. This is not a 2 week problem, its not a 2 month problem either, its a problem that will last as long as it takes us to implement a solution, and that solution is still many months away from implementation.
Not to mention the other advantage of limiting infection vectors helps mitigate the risk of it mutating into yet another iteration.
Fighting one is bad enough, but a second strain would only compound matters.
Not necessarily, if the second strain turns out to be significantly less lethal but generates antibodies that are equally effective against the current strain then that second strain could prove to be a godsend. You could basically intentionally infect a sizable chunk of the population with the second strain in order to create herd immunity to the first.
Ketara wrote:It may well do if herd immunity has kicked in by that point. Estimates of infection in London are already at 5% or more of the population. If that keeps up, enough people will be probably be immune towards October time that the risk will be substantially reduced and the country beginning to function again. If half the population has had it and recovered, then that's half the population which can go back to work without fear of infection or being super-spreaders, or anything of the like. Sure, they can still spread it on their hands, but they won't be coughing or anything.
This is painfully optimistic. The 5% herd immunity rate in london is the result of an early spike in measures as a result of a lack of measures to contain the virus. Flattening the curve via social distancing is a double edged sword - it drastically cuts down the rate of spread and the impact on the healthcare system, but it also drastically reduces the rate at which herd immunity develops. Herd immunity for coronavirus doesn't begin setting in until ~50% of the population gets it, or in more visible terms until cases peak - not the artificially suppressed peak that will result from social distancing, but the overall peak of all potential infections, the peak that we will probably only ever see if we abandon all social distancing efforts before a vaccine becomes available. With social distancing/curve flattening, assuming we dont develop a vaccine first, herd immunity is 2-3 years away at a minimum, and you still need to ride the curve up to ~60-70% for the continuing risk to the remaining uninfected population to be effectively mitigated.
I think you will turn out to be wrong but hope you turn out to be right.
Without getting into the specific thread-locking political weeds, I think it's pretty self evident to literally everyone at this point that some of the things we do in the US are simply unsustainable and well past their sell-by date.
Unfortunately, I think the US populace is just as likely to bend hard to the right in response to Coronavirus and blame external factors (China, immigration, etc.) for raining on our exceptionalist parade as we are to skew left and rework our policies so that a social safety net can protect us from some of the worst outcomes that will result from a repeat scenario.
Why the Heck is the UK recovery rate so low? Its hardly moved compared to constantly rising deaths.
Average recovery time is 14-21 days. Thats why. The recoveries are low because the number of people infected 14-21 days ago was low. The recoveries will always lag the cases reported.
Assuming it doesn’t mutate into yet another strain?
From my incredibly limited understanding of such things, it’s a genuine concern.
That doesn't necessarily mean anything. We get new strains all the time. A new mutation could make it less lethal, less infections. and so on. From what I've read, mutations usually make viruses less harmful rather than the reverse.
If a new strain emerges which previous infection grants no immunity to, and which is much worse however; then yes. That definitely would be a bad point to re-open the country!
Assuming it doesn’t mutate into yet another strain?
From my incredibly limited understanding of such things, it’s a genuine concern.
That doesn't necessarily mean anything. We get new strains all the time. A new mutation could make it less lethal, less infections. and so on. From what I've read, mutations usually make viruses less harmful rather than the reverse.
If a new strain emerges which previous infection grants no immunity to, and which is much worse however; then yes. That definitely would be a bad point to re-open the country!
But that's a very hypothetical scenario.
Viruses mutate all the time, because of the extremely short generational cycle. When we talk about 'the virus has mutated' it means something bad because actual change of itself is pretty much a daily occurrance.
Think of it like the term 'side effects'. There is no such thing as a 'side effect', there are only 'effects' but those 'effects' we find unwanted or harmful we refer to as 'side effects'. In both cases the nomenclature is based on how we relate to the medical product or virus rather than the underlying realities.
RiTides wrote: Good news on the personal front - I tested negative! Finally can stop worrying about who we might have infected, and at least go to the grocery store again . Stay safe and healthy everybody
RiTides wrote: Good news on the personal front - I tested negative! Finally can stop worrying about who we might have infected, and at least go to the grocery store again . Stay safe and healthy everybody
This is good news, but I wonder how many other cases involving allergies, psychosomatics, hypochondriacs, etc are also getting tested and skewing reported results...
It must be a nightmare trying to sort, analyze and use this data.
The only person I know who is in a position to answer that in the local area (close to washington, DC) reported that the drive in checkpoints operating in falls church, virginia, had a 99 percent negative to 1 percent positive rate of results.ire as chicoms.
I think in an ideal scenario you'd be able to quickly move and test close contacts of anyone who came up positive, and thus get ahead of the spread. However, with the limited test availability and long turn around time for results most places, that's obviously really difficult - as by the time you could zero in on a possible transmission vector, the delay means it would be much harder to contain...
note the 1 in 100 tested statement I made 2 posts ago reflected data gathered a few days ago, not today. It might be much different in this most fluid of situations.
Feedback on the mask setup I made -- a small clip makes taking on and off the overmask (a bandana) very quick and easy, compared to tying it. The n95 undermask and cheap swimmers goggles combination quickly gets annoying, but as I intend it to be used for only things like hopping into the grocery store to grab a few items, it feels VERY safe wearing it. Handwashing is still on the menu, of course.
Perhaps this weekend I will get aroudn to trying to make the other bandana into a hepa filtered proper N100 mask setup -- but realistically, that's a pocket gas mask (except against nerve agents or stuff like chlorine gas) ... likely overkill against suspended droplets.
One line summary? There are a number of ways to make very effective masks detailed online that any of us can do as a crafting project -- and I believe if we turned our collective craftiness to it, we could probably make enouhg for all our friends and loved ones to have at least ONE mask to use shopping. Perhaps this is not the week to focus on 40k??
There are a number of ways to make very effective masks detailed online that any of us can do as a crafting project -- and I believe if we turned our collective craftiness to it, we could probably make enouhg for all our friends and loved ones to have at least ONE mask to use shopping. Perhaps this is not the week to focus on 40k??
Yes, because nothing would make me feel safer than wearing a goggles/bandana mask made by someone who can't assemble a Rhino without leaving panel gaps you post a coin through.
Perhaps there's a reason why the various organisations aren't putting out the call for PPE made at the dining room table with love, PVA glue and a positive attitude?
Gitzbitah wrote: And Sunetra Gupta has no evidence for this optimistic theory.
That would be why the article's title is "A New Study Suggests...".
As of yet they've done no testing. This is a serious issue, and choosing to ignore evidence from reputable bodies, like the WHO, which I believe you've classed as a 'terrorist organization' earlier in this thread while championing theories that 'it's not so bad' which have done no testing is just irresponsible.
Technically, I said IF there are less than 50,000 deaths worldwide, the WHO should be considered a terrorist organization on behalf of the significant amount of economic and social damage to multiple countries done on behalf of them presenting this disease as a pandemic that will kill millions. Obviously, if they are right and the damage does turn out to be that bad, the fact that we'll see a recession with unemployment higher than the Great Depression might be a little more justified.
When deaths blitz past 50k in the next week or two, what's your plan to move these goalposts?
It sometimes really upsets me how companies can screw over workers.
While my field is labeled essential, my company has decided NOT to send us out to other peoples houses and perform our job duty.
But a neighbor receives the same service from another company, and i chatted up that employee and she said her company threatened to fire all employees who call in sick during this time.
It really is gakky, and my company is out here trying to find ways for us to do our job via Telehealth
British health Secretary confirms that 'you can drive somewhere remote to walk/exercise' yesterday on question time. Bout time someone cleared that up with a little good sense.
Also some idiot tried to ram the Mercy with a locomotive.
Yeah, I read that story.
I was like "Why?"
I mean, first off, no way in hell could that train have ever actually hit the ship. And two, what would that have accomplished other than putting a dent in the side and maybe scuttling it in very shallow water, which would just make it immobile and not really make it sink.
Gitzbitah wrote: And Sunetra Gupta has no evidence for this optimistic theory.
That would be why the article's title is "A New Study Suggests...".
As of yet they've done no testing. This is a serious issue, and choosing to ignore evidence from reputable bodies, like the WHO, which I believe you've classed as a 'terrorist organization' earlier in this thread while championing theories that 'it's not so bad' which have done no testing is just irresponsible.
Technically, I said IF there are less than 50,000 deaths worldwide, the WHO should be considered a terrorist organization on behalf of the significant amount of economic and social damage to multiple countries done on behalf of them presenting this disease as a pandemic that will kill millions. Obviously, if they are right and the damage does turn out to be that bad, the fact that we'll see a recession with unemployment higher than the Great Depression might be a little more justified.
When deaths blitz past 50k in the next week or two, what's your plan to move these goalposts?
I wont be wearing a mask unless mandated. I dont think they actually do anything in most public spaces, save making you look like a fool, and should be saved for those who need them in the health sector.
Dukeofstuff wrote: Then my comment is surely not intended for the people who don't want it, and in any case not for you, friend. Please, by all means, don't wear a mask!
Nothing against make do ingenuity, but selfmade maks are imo iffy quite a bit for understandable reasons.
Masks are for the greater good.
THE GREATER GOOD. (Ah, Hot Fuzz, reference, is there no late night you can't improve?)
And in the US, there are a number of municipalities and hospital systems calling for homemade surgical masks already, and some forcing their staffs to make the things out of spare cloth while on the clock.
We will need to find 300,000,000 million masks MORE.
So yeah, a simple bandana overmask, n95 innermask (or n100 filter material), goggles, is a good combination if you either already have an n95 (I bnought mine in roughly 2005, in case of plague) and / or can create an n100 filter out of common materials (I am not yet utterly convinced by the online research into the matter, and thus have not put it together yet, but its mostly a matter of aesthetics and such, hepa filtration being a well known technology. I thought and still think that hepa filters do poorly when bent and flexed, so I don't preclude the possibility of making a rigid mask internal structure to span the stuff over. That's a full on weekend project though, compared to just slapping a bandana over my existing mask.) The bandana has a specific role to play, it breaks up any sneeze or aerosolized cough going OUT of the inner mask, its not per se a shield for the user against the virus. It does, however, have the added benefit of keeping your hands off of your own mask and keeping other methods of gross contamination fo the inner mask at bay.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: British health Secretary confirms that 'you can drive somewhere remote to walk/exercise' yesterday on question time. Bout time someone cleared that up with a little good sense.
Seems foolish , too many people unable to drive sensibly on quiet roads , been an uptick in bad crashes round our way. Fly tipping has also become more popular now you can easily drive somewhere with no one about , both jobs our services shouldn’t be having to deal with at this time
With 1100 or so deaths in a day in america they are approaching daily rate of primary killer(heart attack) daily range. At least new york got some supplies courtesy of putin but doubtful those last particularly long there.
Well it looks like the Captain of the US aircraft carrier with the massive infection problem has been removed from command for releasing the info to the media,
but it has now been able to dock in Guam so hopefully anybody who has not been infected yet (and I wonder if there will be any left) has a better chance of avoiding it
I strongly suspect he knew he was signing a career death warrant when he put out his plea, hopefully it made a difference
queen_annes_revenge wrote: British health Secretary confirms that 'you can drive somewhere remote to walk/exercise' yesterday on question time. Bout time someone cleared that up with a little good sense.
Seems foolish , too many people unable to drive sensibly on quiet roads , been an uptick in bad crashes round our way. Fly tipping has also become more popular now you can easily drive somewhere with no one about , both jobs our services shouldn’t be having to deal with at this time
Doesn't matter. Prosecute the crimes of speeding and fly tipping, don't infringe on law abiding citizens liberties (unnecessarily)
hotsauceman1 wrote: It sometimes really upsets me how companies can screw over workers.
While my field is labeled essential, my company has decided NOT to send us out to other peoples houses and perform our job duty.
But a neighbor receives the same service from another company, and i chatted up that employee and she said her company threatened to fire all employees who call in sick during this time.
It really is gakky, and my company is out here trying to find ways for us to do our job via Telehealth
Capitalism gonna capitalism. Even at the height of the pandemic, Germany would still prefer to let in 80.000 slavs to pick their strawberries for peanuts than pay a wage that would be acceptable to locals.
Well it looks like the Captain of the US aircraft carrier with the massive infection problem has been removed from command for releasing the info to the media,
but it has now been able to dock in Guam so hopefully anybody who has not been infected yet (and I wonder if there will be any left) has a better chance of avoiding it
I strongly suspect he knew he was signing a career death warrant when he put out his plea, hopefully it made a difference
Anyone seen any articles that outline exactly what happened? I've only seen fragments in passing - he was denied testing kits, he was told he had to keep everyone on-board to be combat-ready, etc.
Well it looks like the Captain of the US aircraft carrier with the massive infection problem has been removed from command for releasing the info to the media,
but it has now been able to dock in Guam so hopefully anybody who has not been infected yet (and I wonder if there will be any left) has a better chance of avoiding it
I strongly suspect he knew he was signing a career death warrant when he put out his plea, hopefully it made a difference
Lol. I'm hardly surprised that he got fired for doing the right thing. Ah well.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: British health Secretary confirms that 'you can drive somewhere remote to walk/exercise' yesterday on question time. Bout time someone cleared that up with a little good sense.
Seems foolish , too many people unable to drive sensibly on quiet roads , been an uptick in bad crashes round our way. Fly tipping has also become more popular now you can easily drive somewhere with no one about , both jobs our services shouldn’t be having to deal with at this time
Doesn't matter. Prosecute the crimes of speeding and fly tipping, don't infringe on law abiding citizens liberties (unnecessarily)
I see this as the reason the police have struggled to interpret what the Govt is actually directing. I have to say I was surprised at his turnabout on the subject, but all that does is make it harder for the police to do any job with any credibility.
Essentially he's asking them to restrict people's movements, but then changing the parameters so that they get blamed for being over zealous or not applying "common sense".
At times like this, good leadership requires clear direction and unfortunately we don't seem to be getting that.
A temporary restriction on normal liberties is perfectly acceptable in order to rationalise and prioritise limited resources. As military personnel, we're used to it anyway. I fail to understand people who are railing against such minor, temporary inconveniences.
If someone in the UK is only now noticing and complaining, they're too late to the party. For example, the UK already has almost total cctv surveillance and the Govt exercises a level of control over the popular narrative via a compliant media that would make Orwell evaporate in horror.
which does rather raise the issue about the general practicalities/point of delivering water in a bottle by vans regularly anyway.
I guess in an ideal world we could have some form of tubular network which could, perhaps, deliver water directly into people's houses and cut out the need for this completely.
One appreciates that in certain areas or houses -- especially older houses -- there will be issues, bu that's why we have filters and the like.
nfe wrote: When deaths blitz past 50k in the next week or two, what's your plan to move these goalposts?
It took 6 days.
Yup, we're at 1.050.000+ infected now and 60.000+ deaths. I wonder what next goalpost will be? Death by electricity? Death by cars?
Also, in slightly more positive news, 95% of Brazil is now refusing to listen to chief denier Bolsonaro and actually started employing countermeasures:
Hopefully the tribes will weather this OK and the history won't repeat itself this time...
lord_blackfang wrote: Capitalism gonna capitalism. Even at the height of the pandemic, Germany would still prefer to let in 80.000 slavs to pick their strawberries for peanuts than pay a wage that would be acceptable to locals.
Yup, let's blame them dirty foreigners, never mind Germany has actually more cases than all Slavic countries combined, and in any case, a worker on rural farm is not going to infect anyone, and you can even make an argument he/she will be bigger threat to their own country upon returning than to Germany on arrival.
You'd maybe have a point if there was a reason why Polish or Czech worker traveling 10 km to farm in eastern Germany was somehow more dangerous than Ruhr German freely traveling 1100+ km to Baltic beach, but there isn't any. In fact, multiple experts made a point it would make far more sense to have Euroregion case by case response to pandemic by pooling resources together than dumb knee jerk state based gleichschalten (which in almost all cases were too big and unwieldy, applying the same laws to heavily hit areas and disease-free zones).
There are multiple valid reasons to criticize capitalism, but movement of people and work in small region arbitrarily divided by border despite people in it having more in common with each other than with people on the other end of 'their' country isn't one of them.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: British health Secretary confirms that 'you can drive somewhere remote to walk/exercise' yesterday on question time. Bout time someone cleared that up with a little good sense.
Seems foolish , too many people unable to drive sensibly on quiet roads , been an uptick in bad crashes round our way. Fly tipping has also become more popular now you can easily drive somewhere with no one about , both jobs our services shouldn’t be having to deal with at this time
Doesn't matter. Prosecute the crimes of speeding and fly tipping, don't infringe on law abiding citizens liberties (unnecessarily)
I see this as the reason the police have struggled to interpret what the Govt is actually directing. I have to say I was surprised at his turnabout on the subject, but all that does is make it harder for the police to do any job with any credibility.
Essentially he's asking them to restrict people's movements, but then changing the parameters so that they get blamed for being over zealous or not applying "common sense".
At times like this, good leadership requires clear direction and unfortunately we don't seem to be getting that.
A temporary restriction on normal liberties is perfectly acceptable in order to rationalise and prioritise limited resources. As military personnel, we're used to it anyway. I fail to understand people who are railing against such minor, temporary inconveniences.
If someone in the UK is only now noticing and complaining, they're too late to the party. For example, the UK already has almost total cctv surveillance and the Govt exercises a level of control over the popular narrative via a compliant media that would make Orwell evaporate in horror.
No it doesn't. Break up groups of people gathering. Escort suspected infected to quarantine or testing. That's it. They don't need to be questioning law abiding citizens, stopping cars or shaming people with drones, or setting up forums so curtain twitchers can snitch on their neighbours for leaving the house more than once per day. A restriction on liberties, yes, but the minimum necessary should be applied. You don't just sledgehammer everyone with it because you can.
which does rather raise the issue about the general practicalities/point of delivering water in a bottle by vans regularly anyway.
I guess in an ideal world we could have some form of tubular network which could, perhaps, deliver water directly into people's houses and cut out the need for this completely.
One appreciates that in certain areas or houses -- especially older houses -- there will be issues, bu that's why we have filters and the like.
6,000 extra deliveries a week though ?!
I'm honestly kind of amazed that that many people in the UK feel the need to order bottled water in such large amounts. As for old buildings, eh far as I'm aware the national grid pulled the lead pipes years ago and if your house hasn't had the piping updated in that long chances are the electrics will kill you first with worn fabric electric cables long before any lead poisoning from old pipes kicks in.
Azreal13 wrote: Yes, because nothing would make me feel safer than wearing a goggles/bandana mask made by someone who can't assemble a Rhino without leaving panel gaps you post a coin through.
Well it looks like the Captain of the US aircraft carrier with the massive infection problem has been removed from command for releasing the info to the media,
but it has now been able to dock in Guam so hopefully anybody who has not been infected yet (and I wonder if there will be any left) has a better chance of avoiding it
I strongly suspect he knew he was signing a career death warrant when he put out his plea, hopefully it made a difference
Lol. I'm hardly surprised that he got fired for doing the right thing. Ah well.
He didn't do the right thing. If he was having trouble getting the Pacific Fleet commander to respond, you call the PACOM commander, then the CNO, the SECNAV then SECDEF then and only then can you go outside the chain to CONGRESS. He the commander of one of our Aircraft Carriers that had a fast track to flag rank which means A he should know this and B his call to any of those would have gotten a quick response. He had spoken with SECNAV that day and the CAPTs immediate boss who resides on the carrier itself was blinsided by the email. Heck there's probably one other slightly risky thing he could have done but there I'm speculating similarities between Navy and AF on how we handle DoD requirements.
There's an important line made by SECNAV not in the BBC article that makes a further point, the original email that was blasted out was done over unsecure email, you don't discuss the lack of operational capability of the aircraft carrier over unclass email which his position he knows. The relevant quote from SECNAV "The letter was sent over non- secure, unclassified email even though that ship possesses some of the most sophisticated communications and encryption equipment in the Fleet."
The sad thing is the navy is most likely doing the same thing now they would have done if he'd gone up his chain instead of outside his chain except now the situation is worse because the carrier has to do it with a new commander.
My Chief of Staff ensured that the CO knew that he had an open line to me to use at any time.
It seems that it wasn't that open a line if he was canned for using it. Circumventing the CoC is a serious issue, but if he was being encouraged to do so by SECNAV and his Chief of Staff then its not entirely fair to say that he acted in the wrong. I've heard different versions of the same story as to what exactly went down (some which paint Crozier as a hero who is being railroaded for creating bad press for Navy leadership, and others which paint him as an inept grandstander trying to score some of those "political points" that everyone keeps talking about), one of which was that the memorandum (as opposed to the "letter" it is being portrayed as) was sent to the rear admiral aboard with SECNAV, USPACFLT leadership, and others who Crozier had been in contact with regarding the situation cc'd via email (which is not out of the ordinary). Someone leaked the memo to the press (I've heard some have accused Crozier of being the leaker but I've found nothing that supports the assertion) as it went out in an unsecured manner and got forwarded by some of the recipients. I've also heard whisperings from people that claim to be "in the know" (unverified) that the letter was written in part because the chain of command, Rear Admiral Baker included, were being non-responsive to the COs requests and not taking seriously the severity of the situation he was trying to communicate to them, and that Crozier was aware that this would potentially be a career ender for him when he sent it. Curious to learn more as time goes on.
Along with the warehouse team and office team and managers and loaders etc....
