That rulebook cover makes me so envious of what chaos daemons should actually look like... Non aligned but scary as feth chaos daemons would be so awesome.
I was watching without sound and was hoping for a CoS reveal after that little trailer.....
New Stormcast look nice, would have been nice to see the opposing faction too. Don’t know why they hyped this up as a mystery day. Could have just said AoS.
I’m pretty damn happy, personally. Wish we’d seen some of the other force, but the new Stormcast look great and I’m glad it was AoS 3 and not more animations or something.
If it is Fimir I will totally buy the box. at the moment I just plan on waiting for one or two of the new spear storm casts to show up on ebay, but I would reward the re-introduction of Fimir with a true purchase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: *hpwever* as they say new "breed" of evil I somewhat suspect skaven. Which to those who love skaven, great. I'll buy some of those storm casts off you
Sabotage! wrote: I was watching without sound and was hoping for a CoS reveal after that little trailer.....
New Stormcast look nice, would have been nice to see the opposing faction too. Don’t know why they hyped this up as a mystery day. Could have just said AoS.
Forum goers aren't target for that. Non-knowing majority was
Albino Squirrel wrote: Those stormcast do look good. I hope they don't make them 50% women, though.
...why?
Also, I LOLed hard seeing Phil Kelly looking down his nose in the interview that was bizarrely filmed from 45 degrees below straight-on. If that was intentional, I give major props to whoever did it.
I thought that was bizarre, is he really tall or something?
Not showing the other faction in the starter is lame. We know one would always be stormcast.
Agreed. The whole Bog/Mire/Fen thing was also a pretty odd "hint", I can only assume its referring to Fimir as I can't think of anything else warhammer related that shares a close association with swampy landscape. IIRCAoS Fimir are Destruction, yes? Destruction could use some help.
Automatically Appended Next Post: *hpwever* as they say new "breed" of evil I somewhat suspect skaven. Which to those who love skaven, great. I'll buy some of those storm casts off you
I mean, Fimir are kind of notorious/infamous for their old fluff about how they breed and reproduce....
Having a new Avatar of Destruction appear right before the new edition does lead me to believe that the faction opposed to the new Stormcast are going to be Destruction. It's also their "turn", as it were, to be the major villains, even if that's not how it works.
Kragnos needs something to stop him from sticking out like a sore thumb amongst all the other forces of Destruction, and the fact that the new Stormcast hero is a monster slaying specialist can only mean a monster-heavy enemy faction.
The rumours on TGA for a while are a new destruction army somewhere between Orcs and Goblins, like hobgoblins or something. Similar aesthetic to the goblin wolf riders. Speculation is its them who made the little totem thing on Kragnos’s base.
FW Fimir were Destruction GA before they went OOP.
Also, the Bog, Mire and Fen limerick screams Fimir. It pulls direct from an old 4th ed Fantasy quote.
"We spent our honeymoon at the family's summer house by the sea. One morning, when taking the air along the bluffs, the mist closed in. It was suddenly calm and strangely quiet. Then, out of nowhere… Bog Daemons! Huge, one-eyed, barrel-chested brutes. I was sent crashing to the ground with a swipe of a tail. Another bundled Greta up and threw her over its shoulder. Then they just vanished into the mist, as swiftly and as silently as they had appeared. I swear that is Verena's own truth."
—Oleg Grauhof, Reiklander Merchant, shortly before being hanged for the murder of his wife
Bog daemons. Disappearing into the mist.
Fimir it is.
AoS is the perfect opportunity to write out their more troublesome fluff.
Fimir would be an awesome evil army for destruction. Hobgoblins wouldn't be as awesome, though I've long wished we could get some models for them. Yes the fimir lore did involve sexual assault, but so does landsknecht lore, they still put one front and center on the cover of the Cities of Sigmar army book.
So, a week of Warhammer fest and the only things that got my attention are (some) of the undead, a nice Tanith set I won't buy, and a few of the Orks because they're RT/2nd Ed call- backs (and I don't even play Orks).
I'm glad there were more bright spots for others but this seriously could have been condensed into a one-day event or a "Warhammer Weekend" 2 day thing.
EDIT: Oh, and a well-executed but long overdue Cadian sprue that's practically an after thought.
Sotahullu wrote: So "new evil" = new faction? Nighthaunt was introduced at start of the 2nd edition so it easy to think they would something new.
As they talked about new edition based in realm of beasts I am going for it being new Destruction aligned faction.
sylvaneth.
new sylvaneth. mark my words.
Alarielle was already casting life magic fuckery in broken realms teclis
Evil swamp sylvaneth?
ImAGeek wrote: The rumours on TGA for a while are a new destruction army somewhere between Orcs and Goblins, like hobgoblins or something. Similar aesthetic to the goblin wolf riders. Speculation is its them who made the little totem thing on Kragnos’s base.
Swamp goblins would be a bit disappointing :/
OH! Maybe they are bringing back boglars! https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Boglars That would be awesome (if only because I already own something like 300 gnoblar minis lol), that would fit pretty well with the Fimir too
Ah, come on. We got a crucial information in the interview : double turn stays in 3rd edition of AoS, but they will give more advantages to the player choosing to go second (apparently, you gain more command points for one). Hope they also design all battleplans to be more incentive to go second as well.
The new Stormcast Eternals...will wait until I see them all, but I'm glad they're still looking simple to paint and they have both genders.
I'm in the Fimir-camp! This rumour-pic could very well be a Fimir-foot, ruins looks like a match for Yndrasta's base. They mentioned her base as an indicator during the stream.
Right its official, AoS has so much more and better plastics churned out at high speeds than 40k, for some time now.
The new Stromcast kick so much ass! Nice minis I hope that the angel is Stromcast proportion and not giant proportions though. A cool model to buy for sure, if at right size.
Cover is great and Fimir? Woooot? Now that would a nice box set.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Are stormcast now pushing space marines for their title of most kits? Surely beat primaris alone already now.
Nowhere near enough. Last main-line Stormcast model released was 2018 (and one named hero this year). People love to complain, but there's been nearly 3 years of no stormcast.
I'm moderately excited:
The lady looks way better than optimus prime and less swirly bullgak on her. The vindicators look like a MASSIVE step up from the frankly horrid (and I used to have 20 of them, I know it!) liberator models. They have actual human proportions instead of barrelchests and squatlegs, and their armor looks functional (for fantasy armor). Even the helmets look a bit better (still not a massive fan but it's an improvement). The paladin shown isn't terrible either.
I just hope they actually learned from their mistakes rules-wise and they aren't as pillow-fisted and easy to kill in CC as they used to be, it was sad seeing goblins out-fight Sigmar's Finest.
I can only think it’s because their foe is a spoiler for the end of Kragnos.
Irritating all the same.
They probably want to build the hype over several months, so they’ll drip feed us info. Maybe they’re aiming for a new record of how many minutes the launch box will take to sell out?
Mr Morden wrote: Love that they are using the Total War soundtrack.
Total War AOS would be rather awesome
I have a tiny bit of hope that they do Total War AoS after they are done with DLC for Total Warhammer 3.
Let me destroy that hope for you: Frontier Development (developers of Elite: Dangerous) have the exclusive license to non-mobile Age of Sigmar RTS games.
Due to the machinations of Be’lakor, the souls of Stormcast Eternals are no longer guaranteed to return for their reforging – but thunderstrike armour is wrought expressly to give them the power to pierce the supernatural clouds hanging over the realms and make their way safely back to Azyr.
This is a perfect example of how bad the writing is these days.
The storyline advances and creates a new problem, which is immediately solved by way of something which happens to be a new kit. They are literally the same thing as primaris, just in a very slightly different package.
I need to remind myself this game is primarily aimed at 13 year olds.
Pretty whelming reveal. AoS 3rd was strongly rumored, but I had hoped for a little extra. New stormcast are a vast improvement and I'm happy for whomever is invested in them.
Ohman wrote: I'm in the Fimir-camp! This rumour-pic could very well be a Fimir-foot, ruins looks like a match for Yndrasta's base. They mentioned her base as an indicator during the stream.
Good eye! That is definitely the same style stonework. Weirdly, the face is different on the base for Yndrasta. I wonder why.
Thats because of the whole art-and-miniatures-first development process. They came up with some new Stormcast sculpts featuring an entirely new style of armor and some writer was tasked with having to write an explanation for why.
I really like that Stormcast lady as is, but I’m quite happy to have found the base for my Sisters of Battle Saint. I don’t like Celestine’s robo wings and I was struggling to find feathered wings that could fit her.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Those stormcast do look good. I hope they don't make them 50% women, though.
They might, literally half of the new Thunder Force Armoured Sigmarines have boobplate armor, look closely: they are the golden and black coloured ones.
zend wrote: I really like that Stormcast lady as is, but I’m quite happy to have found the base for my Sisters of Battle Saint. I don’t like Celestine’s robo wings and I was struggling to find feathered wings that could fit her.
Funny, I'll be replacing the feathered wings with mechanical ones on mine.
CMLR wrote: They might, literally half of the new Thunder Force Armoured Sigmarines have boobplate armor, look closely: they are the golden and black coloured ones.
I mean, you don't have to look for boobplate. The female Stormcasts have noticeably different body proportions.
Mr Morden wrote: Love that they are using the Total War soundtrack.
Total War AOS would be rather awesome
I have a tiny bit of hope that they do Total War AoS after they are done with DLC for Total Warhammer 3.
Let me destroy that hope for you: Frontier Development (developers of Elite: Dangerous) have the exclusive license to non-mobile Age of Sigmar RTS games.
Im glad.
I think AOS would just not lend itself as a total war game. WHTW3 is going to be a stretch as it is. Less of a total war game and more of an arcade style RTS.
Rome TW remastered has really brought back what I liked about OG TW games. Manoeuvring and planning over microing.
Hero/monster hammer doom stacking is one of the least appealing things of WHTW2 as a total war game. Flanking and manoeuvring is irrelevant when you got mamoths smashing up against dragons lol.
zend wrote: I really like that Stormcast lady as is, but I’m quite happy to have found the base for my Sisters of Battle Saint. I don’t like Celestine’s robo wings and I was struggling to find feathered wings that could fit her.
Funny, I'll be replacing the feathered wings with mechanical ones on mine.
CMLR wrote: They might, literally half of the new Thunder Force Armoured Sigmarines have boobplate armor, look closely: they are the golden and black coloured ones.
I mean, you don't have to look for boobplate. The female Stormcasts have noticeably different body proportions.
Different strokes for different folk! I love the Celestine piece that Karl Kopinski did back in like 3rd edition and I’m not having my Saints any other way
Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast? I understand not liking the first couple they did because the helmetless head sculpts were atrocious, but these look fine.
zend wrote: I really like that Stormcast lady as is, but I’m quite happy to have found the base for my Sisters of Battle Saint. I don’t like Celestine’s robo wings and I was struggling to find feathered wings that could fit her.
Funny, I'll be replacing the feathered wings with mechanical ones on mine.
CMLR wrote: They might, literally half of the new Thunder Force Armoured Sigmarines have boobplate armor, look closely: they are the golden and black coloured ones.
I mean, you don't have to look for boobplate. The female Stormcasts have noticeably different body proportions.
Different strokes for different folk! I love the Celestine piece that Karl Kopinski did back in like 3rd edition and I’m not having my Saints any other way
Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast? I understand not liking the first couple they did because the helmetless head sculpts were atrocious, but these look fine.
That is the way of the universe. People complained about the original AoS being all male. Some female models appear, people complain about that. It’s the natural way of things - someone is always unhappy with what GW does. I think the whole week was Warhammer Snoozefest 21. But I will still likely pick up AoS 3.0. I’m interested, but hardly excited by it.
CMLR wrote: They might, literally half of the new Thunder Force Armoured Sigmarines have boobplate armor, look closely: they are the golden and black coloured ones.
I mean, you don't have to look for boobplate. The female Stormcasts have noticeably different body proportions.
From the four show, no, they do not, and besides, there is no "gender neutral" armor: either you have boob armor or XBOXHUEGPECS armor.
Different strokes for different folk! I love the Celestine piece that Karl Kopinski did back in like 3rd edition and I’m not having my Saints any other way
Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast? I understand not liking the first couple they did because the helmetless head sculpts were atrocious, but these look fine.
I liked that they stablished that there were females since the start, but didn't minded that all the models were male; my problem is the fact that they have boob armor and how do they look alongside the epic pecs armor of the male ones.
Different strokes for different folk! I love the Celestine piece that Karl Kopinski did back in like 3rd edition and I’m not having my Saints any other way
Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast? I understand not liking the first couple they did because the helmetless head sculpts were atrocious, but these look fine.
I liked that they stablished that there were females since the start, but didn't minded that all the models were male; my problem is the fact that they have boob armor and how do they look alongside the epic pecs armor of the male ones.
Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast? I understand not liking the first couple they did because the helmetless head sculpts were atrocious, but these look fine.
It's likely not female stormcast in particular, but the influx of female models in Warhammer in general. The topic is a difficult one to discuss for several reasons (which you are likely aware of), but I'll give you my honest take.
Women in the context of combat are inherently unintuitive to me. Yes, Warhammer and AoS are super high fantasy and it's not that female warriors are implausible within the setting, but the ratio is still something to consider. Making 2 out of 10 warriors female sounds about right to me, but even that should be optional.
In my mind, Warhammer is still a derivate of our medieval past, so seeing women participate in warfare to a higher degree than that just doesn't work for me. It's my personal perspective and a biased one at that, but it's not something I can just ignore.
Secondly, there are clear indications that this trend is, at least to some degree, politically motivated. Representation for the sake of representation is a concept I have yet to understand – maybe nobody ever properly explained it to me – and in my case it happens to change whatever I enjoy to its detriment.
Thirdly, this particular issue tends to be discussed with moral grandstanding, self-righteousness and outright unwillingness to consider the other side of the argument. I acknowledge that many people are happy with more female miniatures and I'm not saying that I am right or they are wrong – it's a matter of taste. Being branded as someone who hates women will make me very angry, though, which is why I tend to respond in kind whenever I'm confronted with this accusation. Now, take all of this and consider that it's mostly happening in online spaces where discussion tends to ignore normal conventions anyway, and it's suddenly very clear why discussions are often unneccessarily charged.
Does anyone actually think GW made female Stormcasts with noticeably different proportions and then ditched that idea for the new, improved take? Because unisex Cadians are so popular I guess?
So they have given Stormcasts soulstounes to protect them from Slaanesh (or whoever). I suppose version 4 of AOS and version 10 of 40k will just be the same game? I mean you could use your fantasy models in Rogue Trader, so I guess it comes full circle
Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast? I understand not liking the first couple they did because the helmetless head sculpts were atrocious, but these look fine.
It's likely not female stormcast in particular, but the influx of female models in Warhammer in general. The topic is a difficult one to discuss for several reasons (which you are likely aware of), but I'll give you my honest take.
Women in the context of combat are inherently unintuitive to me. Yes, Warhammer and AoS are super high fantasy and it's not that female warriors are implausible within the setting, but the ratio is still something to consider. Making 2 out of 10 warriors female sounds about right to me, but even that should be optional.
In my mind, Warhammer is still a derivate of our medieval past, so seeing women participate in warfare to a higher degree than that just doesn't work for me. It's my personal perspective and a biased one at that, but it's not something I can just ignore.
Secondly, there are clear indications that this trend is, at least to some degree, politically motivated. Representation for the sake of representation is a concept I have yet to understand – maybe nobody ever properly explained it to me – and in my case it happens to change whatever I enjoy to its detriment.
Thirdly, this particular issue tends to be discussed with moral grandstanding, self-righteousness and outright unwillingness to consider the other side of the argument. I acknowledge that many people are happy with more female miniatures and I'm not saying that I am right or they are wrong – it's a matter of taste. Being branded as someone who hates women will make me very angry, though, which is why I tend to respond in kind whenever I'm confronted with this accusation. Now, take all of this and consider that it's mostly happening in online spaces where discussion tends to ignore normal conventions anyway, and it's suddenly very clear why discussions are often unneccessarily charged.
That’s got to be the most reasonable answer to a question, I’ve seen on the internet for years. I disagree with half of what you’ve said, but utterly respect the way you’ve expressed it.
Does anyone actually think GW made female Stormcasts with noticeably different proportions and then ditched that idea for the new, improved take? Because unisex Cadians are so popular I guess?
Ironically the easiest way to tell the difference is the chest, men have cleavage moulded into the armor. Women don't.
Honestly, I'm very happy with the new stormcast. I've always preferred the thinner armor, which is why I liked the Vanguard(?) models. But even then, I never got any since the paper thin cloaks they all wore never looked right. But these guys and gals are something I'll keep an eye on.
Well, that's unexpected - I quite like 'em. The spear chappies that is.
The changes from the previous types of Stormcast are all pretty small individually but in aggregate it makes for a quite substantial improvement to my eye - these look more like "heroic scale" versions of those skinny-baroque Blanche concept pieces than the lumbering chonky "Land Marine" versions of yore.
I'll be interested to see if there are some character models and alternate unit types with the same basic style of armour.
Automatically Appended Next Post: *hpwever* as they say new "breed" of evil I somewhat suspect skaven. Which to those who love skaven, great. I'll buy some of those storm casts off you
I mean, Fimir are kind of notorious/infamous for their old fluff about how they breed and reproduce....
Nostromodamus wrote: So glad we got an unnecessary new edition with yet more sigmarines instead of something like Epic or BFG…
The new edition is VERY necessary. Sigmar is pretty garbage at the moment.
Sigmar is pretty awesome at the moment, I think its generally in a better place than 40k is. Not sure why you would think otherwise.
Because if you play competitively almost every viable army in the game is shooting based now (even DoK and Slaanesh function best as pure shooting armies.) And 3 factions are significantly more powerful than the rest of a the field to a degree that make current drukari blush.
It has a lower floor than 40k does so it's generally better for casual and friendly play but competitively it's a shadow of what it was a year to a year and a half ago.
Representation for the sake of representation is a concept I have yet to understand
I agree! I am so sick of all this pointless male representation in gaming. Everyone knows only nerds play tabletop, so why all the male bodies in plastic form?
As to "primaris" stormcast, I thought we already did that with Sacrosanct, being better in every way than the basic warrior chamber stormcast?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Stormcasts have been out for HOW long and they're already getting a Primaris treatment?
More of a redesign, they are basically just giving them better armor? Thats about it. Nothing really 'primaris' about it. They are having issues return to Azyr. Thats really it? Not really a 'primaris' comparision here, people need to stop with the comparisons its just a new chamber.
Representation for the sake of representation is a concept I have yet to understand
I agree! I am so sick of all this pointless male representation in gaming. Everyone knows only nerds play tabletop, so why all the male bodies in plastic form?
CMLR wrote: Multi-part kits, like this will be, will have shared legs for everyone.
You can see the legs (and hips, and lower torso, as those will undoubtedly be one piece) have different proportions.
Like, just look at the image. It's right there.
FFS, the current multi part SC kits that have male and female variants do not share any parts between them, except the weapons and I think gloves in some cases.
Cronch wrote: Everyone knows only nerds play tabletop, so why all the male bodies in plastic form?
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: Due to the machinations of Be’lakor, the souls of Stormcast Eternals are no longer guaranteed to return for their reforging – but thunderstrike armour is wrought expressly to give them the power to pierce the supernatural clouds hanging over the realms and make their way safely back to Azyr.
This is a perfect example of how bad the writing is these days.
The storyline advances and creates a new problem, which is immediately solved by way of something which happens to be a new kit. They are literally the same thing as primaris, just in a very slightly different package.
I need to remind myself this game is primarily aimed at 13 year olds.
Until you remember that is not entirely true, its not a surefire way of returning to Azyr, as they have literally said. Before they said that the stormcasts couldn't go home now there is a very high chance they can't go back. And yes it is meant to be a bit nobler and less dark than 40k. It is not 40k.
I don't think its bad writing in anyway. Don't be reductive.
Also are we seriously talking about female models in SC? Who cares? Its like oh cool new variations in models. Cool. As there are countless examples of female warriors in AOS, and it being high fantasy I don't care about 'but physically they can't' arguments. Its really doesn't matter. This is AOS they can get away with little frog people being prophets, I think a woman wielding a spear or a massive hammer is the least of AOS's problems lol
Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast? I understand not liking the first couple they did because the helmetless head sculpts were atrocious, but these look fine.
It's likely not female stormcast in particular, but the influx of female models in Warhammer in general. The topic is a difficult one to discuss for several reasons (which you are likely aware of), but I'll give you my honest take.
Women in the context of combat are inherently unintuitive to me. Yes, Warhammer and AoS are super high fantasy and it's not that female warriors are implausible within the setting, but the ratio is still something to consider. Making 2 out of 10 warriors female sounds about right to me, but even that should be optional.
In my mind, Warhammer is still a derivate of our medieval past, so seeing women participate in warfare to a higher degree than that just doesn't work for me. It's my personal perspective and a biased one at that, but it's not something I can just ignore.
Secondly, there are clear indications that this trend is, at least to some degree, politically motivated. Representation for the sake of representation is a concept I have yet to understand – maybe nobody ever properly explained it to me – and in my case it happens to change whatever I enjoy to its detriment.
Thirdly, this particular issue tends to be discussed with moral grandstanding, self-righteousness and outright unwillingness to consider the other side of the argument. I acknowledge that many people are happy with more female miniatures and I'm not saying that I am right or they are wrong – it's a matter of taste. Being branded as someone who hates women will make me very angry, though, which is why I tend to respond in kind whenever I'm confronted with this accusation. Now, take all of this and consider that it's mostly happening in online spaces where discussion tends to ignore normal conventions anyway, and it's suddenly very clear why discussions are often unneccessarily charged.
The first one is stupid in both 40k and AoS. Everything is combat. You're more likely to die in battle in these universes than you are to die to anything else except disease. It's not like you can just avoid fighting because you're ostensibly a civilian.
Secondly, representation is about...being represented. I don't know how this could possibly be confusing, it's as straightforward as it gets. As for it being politically motivated, you'd say that regardless. If it was one super badass female that was a stormcast you'd accuse them of tokenism. Anything else would be pandering. What the old saying 'their are only 2 genders male and political'.
If you don't want to be accused of hating women, quit parroting arguments made by people who actually do hate women. You want your armies to be predominantly male. Cool. Leave it at that.
Representation for the sake of representation is a concept I have yet to understand
I agree! I am so sick of all this pointless male representation in gaming. Everyone knows only nerds play tabletop, so why all the male bodies in plastic form?
Hard agree. It's ridiculous.
Could you imagine representation in a high fantasy bah, the concept is mindboggling /s
Overall this was a great release / day. I don't know anyone could possibly delude themselves into thinking we are getting Horus Heresy 2nd edition. When all the leaks and rumors have all been "AOS 3RD edition". AOS again blowing everything else out of the water due to its designers being so intelligently thoughtful in its design from models to lore.
CMLR wrote: Multi-part kits, like this will be, will have shared legs for everyone.
You can see the legs (and hips, and lower torso, as those will undoubtedly be one piece) have different proportions.
Like, just look at the image. It's right there.
FFS, the current multi part SC kits that have male and female variants do not share any parts between them, except the weapons and I think gloves in some cases.
So, when these stormcast die, will they damage the enemy? Do current stormcast do that, since they turn into lightning? I'm guessing the new ones actually explode
GaroRobe wrote: So, when these stormcast die, will they damage the enemy? Do current stormcast do that, since they turn into lightning? I'm guessing the new ones actually explode
Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast? I understand not liking the first couple they did because the helmetless head sculpts were atrocious, but these look fine.
It's likely not female stormcast in particular, but the influx of female models in Warhammer in general. The topic is a difficult one to discuss for several reasons (which you are likely aware of), but I'll give you my honest take.
Women in the context of combat are inherently unintuitive to me. Yes, Warhammer and AoS are super high fantasy and it's not that female warriors are implausible within the setting, but the ratio is still something to consider. Making 2 out of 10 warriors female sounds about right to me, but even that should be optional.
In my mind, Warhammer is still a derivate of our medieval past, so seeing women participate in warfare to a higher degree than that just doesn't work for me. It's my personal perspective and a biased one at that, but it's not something I can just ignore.
Secondly, there are clear indications that this trend is, at least to some degree, politically motivated. Representation for the sake of representation is a concept I have yet to understand – maybe nobody ever properly explained it to me – and in my case it happens to change whatever I enjoy to its detriment.
Thirdly, this particular issue tends to be discussed with moral grandstanding, self-righteousness and outright unwillingness to consider the other side of the argument. I acknowledge that many people are happy with more female miniatures and I'm not saying that I am right or they are wrong – it's a matter of taste. Being branded as someone who hates women will make me very angry, though, which is why I tend to respond in kind whenever I'm confronted with this accusation. Now, take all of this and consider that it's mostly happening in online spaces where discussion tends to ignore normal conventions anyway, and it's suddenly very clear why discussions are often unneccessarily charged.
The first one is stupid in both 40k and AoS. Everything is combat. You're more likely to die in battle in these universes than you are to die to anything else except disease. It's not like you can just avoid fighting because you're ostensibly a civilian.
Secondly, representation is about...being represented. I don't know how this could possibly be confusing, it's as straightforward as it gets. As for it being politically motivated, you'd say that regardless. If it was one super badass female that was a stormcast you'd accuse them of tokenism. Anything else would be pandering. What the old saying 'their are only 2 genders male and political'.
If you don't want to be accused of hating women, quit parroting arguments made by people who actually do hate women. You want your armies to be predominantly male. Cool. Leave it at that.
He's being entirely disingenuous. I applaud your effort to engage, but anyone who argues that "women can't fight" like it's a rational argument and claims to not understand representation and why it matters is just a pathetic troll. I'm sure he will have something as fatuous as his original post to say when he sees this.
The first one is stupid in both 40k and AoS. Everything is combat. You're more likely to die in battle in these universes than you are to die to anything else except disease. It's not like you can just avoid fighting because you're ostensibly a civilian.
Secondly, representation is about...being represented. I don't know how this could possibly be confusing, it's as straightforward as it gets. As for it being politically motivated, you'd say that regardless. If it was one super badass female that was a stormcast you'd accuse them of tokenism. Anything else would be pandering. What the old saying 'their are only 2 genders male and political'.
If you don't want to be accused of hating women, quit parroting arguments made by people who actually do hate women. You want your armies to be predominantly male. Cool. Leave it at that.
Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast? I understand not liking the first couple they did because the helmetless head sculpts were atrocious, but these look fine.
It's likely not female stormcast in particular, but the influx of female models in Warhammer in general. The topic is a difficult one to discuss for several reasons (which you are likely aware of), but I'll give you my honest take.
Women in the context of combat are inherently unintuitive to me. Yes, Warhammer and AoS are super high fantasy and it's not that female warriors are implausible within the setting, but the ratio is still something to consider. Making 2 out of 10 warriors female sounds about right to me, but even that should be optional.
In my mind, Warhammer is still a derivate of our medieval past, so seeing women participate in warfare to a higher degree than that just doesn't work for me. It's my personal perspective and a biased one at that, but it's not something I can just ignore.
Secondly, there are clear indications that this trend is, at least to some degree, politically motivated. Representation for the sake of representation is a concept I have yet to understand – maybe nobody ever properly explained it to me – and in my case it happens to change whatever I enjoy to its detriment.
Thirdly, this particular issue tends to be discussed with moral grandstanding, self-righteousness and outright unwillingness to consider the other side of the argument. I acknowledge that many people are happy with more female miniatures and I'm not saying that I am right or they are wrong – it's a matter of taste. Being branded as someone who hates women will make me very angry, though, which is why I tend to respond in kind whenever I'm confronted with this accusation. Now, take all of this and consider that it's mostly happening in online spaces where discussion tends to ignore normal conventions anyway, and it's suddenly very clear why discussions are often unneccessarily charged.
The first one is stupid in both 40k and AoS. Everything is combat. You're more likely to die in battle in these universes than you are to die to anything else except disease. It's not like you can just avoid fighting because you're ostensibly a civilian.
Secondly, representation is about...being represented. I don't know how this could possibly be confusing, it's as straightforward as it gets. As for it being politically motivated, you'd say that regardless. If it was one super badass female that was a stormcast you'd accuse them of tokenism. Anything else would be pandering. What the old saying 'their are only 2 genders male and political'.
If you don't want to be accused of hating women, quit parroting arguments made by people who actually do hate women. You want your armies to be predominantly male. Cool. Leave it at that.
He's being entirely disingenuous. I applaud your effort to engage, but anyone who argues that "women can't fight" like it's a rational argument and claims to not understand representation and why it matters is just a pathetic troll. I'm sure he will have something as fatuous as his original post to say when he sees this.
He already did. He posted three letters.
The issue is that there is a long history of female fighters throughout the world. From Pirates, to Greeks, to lots of other events throughout world history that there have been female soldiers or soldiery used. Its just not making much sense.
AOS gets away with lots of things and this is the least interesting thing to talk about. All the models are cool and very well proportioned.
I guarantee you I'm not, I was merely trying to answer a question in an honest way. I'll gladly elaborate in a private conversation if you are interested – otherwise it'd probably derail the thread.
Eldarsif wrote: Love what we've seen so far. Just wish we'd seen more.
Also love that more of the Stormcast are women. Reflects the fluff better in many ways.
Especially because the requirement of being a hero is so loosely defined that literally anyone can be one, from a woman standing up for her beliefs and burned as heretic or A female doctor killed while protecting her charges , literally anything tis great. Gardus is an amazing example of where someone can come from he was just a hospice doctor afterall.
Actually my stromcast favourite models are female and yep they look different as they should.
I welcome the options provided but thats just me.
The muscular man stereotype is still strong in AoS so some variation to that is a positive. I would go as far to say that GW struggles to sculpt women because they were stuck just sculpting men over and over again.
chaos0xomega wrote: Thats because of the whole art-and-miniatures-first development process. They came up with some new Stormcast sculpts featuring an entirely new style of armor and some writer was tasked with having to write an explanation for why.
Alternatively, they took feedback from people like myself who felt that Stormcast visual profiles were not well defined.
I pity whoever had to read the last survey they did when it got to the open comments bit, as I ripped into them for the laziness of the Stormcast line.
For the few female exclusive models. Multi-part kits, like this will be, will have shared legs for everyone.
Like in sequitors? Oh wait they don't...
Just stop makin# yourself look silly and stop claiming boopplate is only difference when its clearly not.
makin#? What's that?
And yeah, Sequitors don't have visible dumb boob armor, and that is refreshing, but I am not complaining about that being the only difference, I am pointing out that boob plate at all is dumb.
I came home from a pleasant evening dining out with people from outside my household for the first time in 7 months and I come home to see literally Primaris Stormcast. Day ruined, thanks Obama.
I don't play AoS, but the regulars that post on dakka seem to rate AoS these days. Does it really need a version 3? Are there lots of faults to be fixed?
lord_blackfang wrote: I came home from a pleasant evening dining out with people from outside my household for the first time in 7 months and I come home to see literally Primaris Stormcast. Day ruined, thanks Obama.
Also something something creative bankrupcy.
Well gw's buissness model seems to go more torwards coorporate need to reinvent and especially resell the wheel to the playerbase. Also considering people bought tempestus scions so will people buy the First day DLC released for 40k right now and so will people be fine with this.
Also easiest way to introduce reccurent spending into the playerbase.
Gimgamgoo wrote: I don't play AoS, but the regulars that post on dakka seem to rate AoS these days. Does it really need a version 3? Are there lots of faults to be fixed?
It needs like, five bulletpoints of fixes. But it doesn't matter does it? New edition equals new rulebook to sell, new army books and accessories...it's part of the business model. Arguably there was nothing so wrong with 3rd edition 40k that it required 5 more to fix either.
Eldarsif wrote: Love what we've seen so far. Just wish we'd seen more.
Also love that more of the Stormcast are women. Reflects the fluff better in many ways.
Especially because the requirement of being a hero is so loosely defined that literally anyone can be one, from a woman standing up for her beliefs and burned as heretic or A female doctor killed while protecting her charges , literally anything tis great. Gardus is an amazing example of where someone can come from he was just a hospice doctor afterall.
Bingo. That's the beauty of Stormcast right there.
Gimgamgoo wrote: I don't play AoS, but the regulars that post on dakka seem to rate AoS these days. Does it really need a version 3? Are there lots of faults to be fixed?
Not really, the rules just needed a look over, mainly battalions, etc. Everything else is fine, maybe looking at ranged weapons being a bit too effective, thats really about if off the top of my head. Did it need it? No. Is it welcome yes. Especially because I knew we were going to get a 3rd edition because it has been a while since second edition came out.
Gimgamgoo wrote: I don't play AoS, but the regulars that post on dakka seem to rate AoS these days. Does it really need a version 3? Are there lots of faults to be fixed?
There are a few holes that need to be addressed and it seems so far they are going to address them. I would have liked them to remove the random initiative order, but I'll take what I can get.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: Due to the machinations of Be’lakor, the souls of Stormcast Eternals are no longer guaranteed to return for their reforging – but thunderstrike armour is wrought expressly to give them the power to pierce the supernatural clouds hanging over the realms and make their way safely back to Azyr.
This is a perfect example of how bad the writing is these days.
The storyline advances and creates a new problem, which is immediately solved by way of something which happens to be a new kit. They are literally the same thing as primaris, just in a very slightly different package.
I need to remind myself this game is primarily aimed at 13 year olds.
Until you remember that is not entirely true, its not a surefire way of returning to Azyr, as they have literally said. Before they said that the stormcasts couldn't go home now there is a very high chance they can't go back. And yes it is meant to be a bit nobler and less dark than 40k. It is not 40k.
I don't think its bad writing in anyway. Don't be reductive.
It's AoS' equivalent of the Great Rift - it will ominously devour Red Shirts but named characters will never be affected by it.
zend wrote: Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast?
Oh, that's easy to answer. Sexism. There is no point pretending that it is anything else. There isn't even the fig leaf of 'muh lore' like with the Marines, as female Stormcast were established in the lore from the get go.
CMLR wrote: And yeah, Sequitors don't have visible dumb boob armor, and that is refreshing, but I am not complaining about that being the only difference, I am pointing out that boob plate at all is dumb.
It's not any dumber than your average bronze thorax. Or, more importantly, the male Stormcast armour, which is clearly inspired by certain late archaic/early classical Greek armour designs.
In fact, the armour of those new female Stormcasts is more advanced than that of their male counterparts, as it doesn't have a catch area right in the middle of the chest. Lucky girls.
Asherian Command wrote: Until you remember that is not entirely true, its not a surefire way of returning to Azyr, as they have literally said. Before they said that the stormcasts couldn't go home now there is a very high chance they can't go back. And yes it is meant to be a bit nobler and less dark than 40k. It is not 40k.
I don't think its bad writing in anyway. Don't be reductive.
Where does it say there is a very high chance they can't go home? I just forced myself to sit through their video stream and the guy says, "It almost always" brings them back home. Seems like a pretty far throw from "a very high chance they can't go home."
Where does it say there is a very high chance they can't go home? I just forced myself to sit through their video stream and the guy says, "It almost always" brings them back home. Seems like a pretty far throw from "a very high chance they can't go home."
So yes, it is boring writing.
A low risk of something very bad happening doesn't raise the stakes particularly well. It's a bit like the Rubicon in 40k. When it was introduced, we were told it was a risky procedure that couldn't be implemented as standard - explaining why Firstborn still exist at all - yet every single major character who it's been done to has survived.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Those stormcast do look good. I hope they don't make them 50% women, though.
They might, literally half of the new Thunder Force Armoured Sigmarines have boobplate armor, look closely: they are the golden and black coloured ones.
Yes, I saw that. Two of the previewed ones are female, and they have different bodies. So if there's 5 of them to a sprue, that means at least 40% of them will be female, which is way too many.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: Due to the machinations of Be’lakor, the souls of Stormcast Eternals are no longer guaranteed to return for their reforging – but thunderstrike armour is wrought expressly to give them the power to pierce the supernatural clouds hanging over the realms and make their way safely back to Azyr.
This is a perfect example of how bad the writing is these days.
The storyline advances and creates a new problem, which is immediately solved by way of something which happens to be a new kit. They are literally the same thing as primaris, just in a very slightly different package.
I need to remind myself this game is primarily aimed at 13 year olds.
Yes, I had the same thought when I read that. I find out about some big development that happened in the story, and in the very same sentence find out it doesn't really matter anymore.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Those stormcast do look good. I hope they don't make them 50% women, though.
They might, literally half of the new Thunder Force Armoured Sigmarines have boobplate armor, look closely: they are the golden and black coloured ones.
Yes, I saw that. Two of the previewed ones are female, and they have different bodies. So if there's 5 of them to a sprue, that means at least 40% of them will be female, which is way too many.
Well for you others will be happy to have the variety rather than just males or mainly males. Different strokes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote: So what are Stormcast in old armour supposed to be now? The ones Sigmar doesn't like well enough to give them a respawn suit?
I guess they get new armour if and when they get back to Azyr - if they have enough.
lord_blackfang wrote: So what are Stormcast in old armour supposed to be now? The ones Sigmar doesn't like well enough to give them a respawn suit?
I guess you have to consider them as the ones that are effectively cut off from Azyr and haven't been granted the new suits yet. Effectively the firstborn equivalent for Stormcast and the new ones being Primaris "reinforcements".
lord_blackfang wrote: So what are Stormcast in old armour supposed to be now? The ones Sigmar doesn't like well enough to give them a respawn suit?
I guess you have to consider them as the ones that are effectively cut off from Azyr and haven't been granted the new suits yet. Effectively the firstborn equivalent for Stormcast and the new ones being Primaris "reinforcements".
Depends on the supply line as well - how much have they got of the new suits and how quickly can they get them to cut off areas - Quite a few Realmgates have been blown up. Shipping them out is a little risky - quite a few would love to get hold of them (especially Ikit!)- and if there is a explosive element - some fun sabotage prospects for Skaven and the like.
I am also interested to see what happens to all the Dark Elves and Daughters of Khaine in the Realm Of Azyr - is Sigmar going to ccarry out another purge?
Albino Squirrel wrote: Those stormcast do look good. I hope they don't make them 50% women, though.
They might, literally half of the new Thunder Force Armoured Sigmarines have boobplate armor, look closely: they are the golden and black coloured ones.
Yes, I saw that. Two of the previewed ones are female, and they have different bodies. So if there's 5 of them to a sprue, that means at least 40% of them will be female, which is way too many.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Those stormcast do look good. I hope they don't make them 50% women, though.
They might, literally half of the new Thunder Force Armoured Sigmarines have boobplate armor, look closely: they are the golden and black coloured ones.
Yes, I saw that. Two of the previewed ones are female, and they have different bodies. So if there's 5 of them to a sprue, that means at least 40% of them will be female, which is way too many.
lord_blackfang wrote: So what are Stormcast in old armour supposed to be now? The ones Sigmar doesn't like well enough to give them a respawn suit?
I guess you have to consider them as the ones that are effectively cut off from Azyr and haven't been granted the new suits yet. Effectively the firstborn equivalent for Stormcast and the new ones being Primaris "reinforcements".
Depends on the supply line as well - how much have they got of the new suits and how quickly can they get them to cut off areas - Quite a few Realmgates have been blown up.
I am also interested to see what happens to all the Dark Elves and Daughters of Khaine in the Realm Of Azyr - is Sigmar going to ccarry out another purge?
Not against the Daughters. He's got some parlay going on with Morathi after she took the city.
I am also interested to see what happens to all the Dark Elves and Daughters of Khaine in the Realm Of Azyr - is Sigmar going to ccarry out another purge?
Well there is no "Dark Elves". Just Elves (Aelfs). And not everyone is blood offering fanatic or smug wizard.
I am also interested to see what happens to all the Dark Elves and Daughters of Khaine in the Realm Of Azyr - is Sigmar going to ccarry out another purge?
Well there is no "Dark Elves". Just Elves (Aelfs). And not everyone is blood offering fanatic or smug wizard.
I have to admit that with all that's happened in Broken Realms I almost get the feeling we'll see Dark Elves in some form or another return as a unified whole.
lord_blackfang wrote: So what are Stormcast in old armour supposed to be now? The ones Sigmar doesn't like well enough to give them a respawn suit?
I guess you have to consider them as the ones that are effectively cut off from Azyr and haven't been granted the new suits yet. Effectively the firstborn equivalent for Stormcast and the new ones being Primaris "reinforcements".
Depends on the supply line as well - how much have they got of the new suits and how quickly can they get them to cut off areas - Quite a few Realmgates have been blown up.
I am also interested to see what happens to all the Dark Elves and Daughters of Khaine in the Realm Of Azyr - is Sigmar going to ccarry out another purge?
Not against the Daughters. He's got some parlay going on with Morathi after she took the city.
Ahh I missed that - sensible - only just got the 3rd book - should do the same with Neferata whilst Nagash is out of the picture
Well there is no "Dark Elves". Just Elves (Aelfs). And not everyone is blood offering fanatic or smug wizard.
No and some did side with Sigmar (or against Morathi) - but was not sure if Sigmar would acknowledge that
I am also interested to see what happens to all the Dark Elves and Daughters of Khaine in the Realm Of Azyr - is Sigmar going to ccarry out another purge?
Well there is no "Dark Elves". Just Elves (Aelfs). And not everyone is blood offering fanatic or smug wizard.
I have to admit that with all that's happened in Broken Realms I almost get the feeling we'll see Dark Elves in some form or another return as a unified whole.
God i hope not. The Daughters are actually interesting rather than the whole "lol look how evil we are" dark elves.
I am also interested to see what happens to all the Dark Elves and Daughters of Khaine in the Realm Of Azyr - is Sigmar going to ccarry out another purge?
Well there is no "Dark Elves". Just Elves (Aelfs). And not everyone is blood offering fanatic or smug wizard.
I have to admit that with all that's happened in Broken Realms I almost get the feeling we'll see Dark Elves in some form or another return as a unified whole.
God i hope not. The Daughters are actually interesting rather than the whole "lol look how evil we are" dark elves.
Agreed - the Aleves seems to be pretty split about the whole thing - hoping to get some good stories - sad no tie in novels.
Representation for the sake of representation is a concept I have yet to understand
I agree! I am so sick of all this pointless male representation in gaming. Everyone knows only nerds play tabletop, so why all the male bodies in plastic form?
Chicken - Egg problem.
Given how insecure neckbeards get over more female representation in miniatures shows that GW has been catering to their safe space for far too long. Time for a change.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: God i hope not. The Daughters are actually interesting rather than the whole "lol look how evil we are" dark elves.
I mean, Dark Elves weren't 'evil' the way Chaos was 'evil'. They were mostly portrayed in a very franderized fashion which made them look like comical villains, instead of the more honest, unvarnished face of a race known for their bloated superiority complex.
Darkseid wrote: Given how insecure neckbeards get over more female representation in miniatures shows that GW has been catering to their safe space for far too long. Time for a change.
We went from bad to worse to mandatory corporate correctional hours for nerds.
Do we need those Twitter takes here? Dakka's supposed to be a classier gutter.
I have no idea why everyone is arguing about female models when you should be discussing the literal dumpster fire of lore given to us here. "That whole Nagash curse thing was resolved, you know, the one that stopped Stormcast souls from reaching Azyr, but now big ol' Belakor is all like, hey I wanna do that!, and made some big scary clouds that stop the Stormcast souls from reaching Azyr."
GW is literally feeding us baby food in the lore department lol.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Those stormcast do look good. I hope they don't make them 50% women, though.
They might, literally half of the new Thunder Force Armoured Sigmarines have boobplate armor, look closely: they are the golden and black coloured ones.
Yes, I saw that. Two of the previewed ones are female, and they have different bodies. So if there's 5 of them to a sprue, that means at least 40% of them will be female, which is way too many.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Those stormcast do look good. I hope they don't make them 50% women, though.
They might, literally half of the new Thunder Force Armoured Sigmarines have boobplate armor, look closely: they are the golden and black coloured ones.
Yes, I saw that. Two of the previewed ones are female, and they have different bodies. So if there's 5 of them to a sprue, that means at least 40% of them will be female, which is way too many.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I have no idea why everyone is arguing about female models when you should be discussing the literal dumpster fire of lore given to us here. "That whole Nagash curse thing was resolved, you know, the one that stopped Stormcast souls from reaching Azyr, but now big ol' Belakor is all like, hey I wanna do that!, and made some big scary clouds that stop the Stormcast souls from reaching Azyr."
GW is literally feeding us baby food in the lore department lol.
And now these primariscast can bypass that because reasons and we should care… why?
Because it's quite literally an arms race. The reforging was meant to be a trump card, a way to keep the majority of the Stormcasts in action at all times. Now not only has one way been found to disrupt it but multiple ways. The armour may beat Be'lakor's storm, but all it's done is forced a work around.
I have no idea why people are judging something without any context of the actual lore.
We do not have the full picture, getting angry over nothing is just childish. Especially because NAgash's curse was resolved by the God of Light and Allarielle and not by the Sigmarites. So again we are violating the "saturday morning cartoon." With actual consequences for actions. Everyone is talking about oh well "There are no drawbacks see!" We don't even know what the process entails. It might strengthen the problems already present in the stormcasts. Stop judging something if you lack proper context and calling the lore bad, or chilidish if you haven't read it. There is a massive difference between writing to ensure that 13 years old can pick it up, and writing like a 13 year old and some folks on here are getting that extremely mixed around and its not helping this conversation. Please steer this into a more thoughtful discussion. This all lazy critique and armchair commandering.
This is extremely toxic to everyone involved, there is no right answer to how to do the lore right=.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I have no idea why everyone is arguing about female models when you should be discussing the literal dumpster fire of lore given to us here. "That whole Nagash curse thing was resolved, you know, the one that stopped Stormcast souls from reaching Azyr, but now big ol' Belakor is all like, hey I wanna do that!, and made some big scary clouds that stop the Stormcast souls from reaching Azyr."
GW is literally feeding us baby food in the lore department lol.
What? I'm not super knowledgeable about AOS lore, but I'm pretty sure the Necroquake didn't really impact the reforging process of Stormcast. Otherwise, Morathi would have just killed the stormcast in her broken realms book. The Necroquake was more about accidentally unleashing magic (mostly death magic) and wasn't targeted at the SE.
Be'lakor's spell actually did have a big impact on Stormcasts. For about a month I guess, until this was announced. But I guess it still have ramifications. It's not like with primaris where normal stormcast can easily be made into the newer version. Unless they're in Azyr, the majority of the stormcast in the realms are probably stuck on their "one-life" forging, until the Be'lakor stuff is resolved.
But yeah, weird choice to begin by negating the huge thing Be'lakor did. Like, this was the second from last book released, and we've already had some sort of solution to the issue.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: God i hope not. The Daughters are actually interesting rather than the whole "lol look how evil we are" dark elves.
I mean, Dark Elves weren't 'evil' the way Chaos was 'evil'. They were mostly portrayed in a very franderized fashion which made them look like comical villains, instead of the more honest, unvarnished face of a race known for their bloated superiority complex.
Darkseid wrote: Given how insecure neckbeards get over more female representation in miniatures shows that GW has been catering to their safe space for far too long. Time for a change.
We went from bad to worse to mandatory corporate correctional hours for nerds.
Do we need those Twitter takes here? Dakka's supposed to be a classier gutter.
The classiest of gutters, no peon feces/urine only pure pure stormcast pee
Of all the things to complain about GW, trust the internet reprobates to be complaining about having female models. Another embarrassing day to be a warhammer player.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I have no idea why everyone is arguing about female models when you should be discussing the literal dumpster fire of lore given to us here. "That whole Nagash curse thing was resolved, you know, the one that stopped Stormcast souls from reaching Azyr, but now big ol' Belakor is all like, hey I wanna do that!, and made some big scary clouds that stop the Stormcast souls from reaching Azyr."
GW is literally feeding us baby food in the lore department lol.
I'm still shocked that people take the Lore seriously enough to get worked up over. GW's Lore while entertaining, is geared towards making a setting of perpetual conflict... so they can sell more models. It is not to be taken seriously or viewed beyond surface level.
Voss wrote: Wow, Age of Sigmar 3! Shocking, after days of surprise after... well, ok, the tanith and cadian mini-releases are a surprise. Not much else though.
On the up side, the new improved Sigmarines look really good. I'm kind of impressed by the new models.
I could do without the comet-halo, the gigantic ruin and the silly name, but the hero model is really nice, as are the rank and file.
I look forward to the swamp monsters.
---
Could we get some mods on the misogyny though? Same a bad way to wrap up a preview week.
What misogyny?
I see some people are not a fan of some female sculpts, and then I see a bunch of people hurling vile insults at them.
Voss wrote: Wow, Age of Sigmar 3! Shocking, after days of surprise after... well, ok, the tanith and cadian mini-releases are a surprise. Not much else though.
On the up side, the new improved Sigmarines look really good. I'm kind of impressed by the new models.
I could do without the comet-halo, the gigantic ruin and the silly name, but the hero model is really nice, as are the rank and file.
I look forward to the swamp monsters.
---
Could we get some mods on the misogyny though? Same a bad way to wrap up a preview week.
What misogyny?
I see some people are not a fan of some female sculpts, and then I see a bunch of people hurling vile insults at them.
I saw zero people criticizing the sculpts, ie, 'not being fans' of them. I saw several people stating that women should just be removed, the sculpts just deleted from existence. That _is_ textbook misogyny.
Voss wrote: Wow, Age of Sigmar 3! Shocking, after days of surprise after... well, ok, the tanith and cadian mini-releases are a surprise. Not much else though.
On the up side, the new improved Sigmarines look really good. I'm kind of impressed by the new models.
I could do without the comet-halo, the gigantic ruin and the silly name, but the hero model is really nice, as are the rank and file.
I look forward to the swamp monsters.
---
Could we get some mods on the misogyny though? Same a bad way to wrap up a preview week.
What misogyny?
I see some people are not a fan of some female sculpts, and then I see a bunch of people hurling vile insults at them.
It does seem like there's a lot of childish people (or, to be fair, possibly actual children) who get angry over someone else not liking the same little plastic soldiers.
Voss wrote: Wow, Age of Sigmar 3! Shocking, after days of surprise after... well, ok, the tanith and cadian mini-releases are a surprise. Not much else though.
On the up side, the new improved Sigmarines look really good. I'm kind of impressed by the new models.
I could do without the comet-halo, the gigantic ruin and the silly name, but the hero model is really nice, as are the rank and file.
I look forward to the swamp monsters.
---
Could we get some mods on the misogyny though? Same a bad way to wrap up a preview week.
What misogyny?
I see some people are not a fan of some female sculpts, and then I see a bunch of people hurling vile insults at them.
I saw zero people criticizing the sculpts, ie, 'not being fans' of them. I saw several people stating that women should just be removed, the sculpts just deleted from existence. That _is_ textbook misogyny.
Best you don't travel outside the US if this is textbook misogyny to you.
Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast? I understand not liking the first couple they did because the helmetless head sculpts were atrocious, but these look fine.
It's likely not female stormcast in particular, but the influx of female models in Warhammer in general. The topic is a difficult one to discuss for several reasons (which you are likely aware of), but I'll give you my honest take.
Women in the context of combat are inherently unintuitive to me. Yes, Warhammer and AoS are super high fantasy and it's not that female warriors are implausible within the setting, but the ratio is still something to consider. Making 2 out of 10 warriors female sounds about right to me, but even that should be optional.
In my mind, Warhammer is still a derivate of our medieval past, so seeing women participate in warfare to a higher degree than that just doesn't work for me. It's my personal perspective and a biased one at that, but it's not something I can just ignore.
Secondly, there are clear indications that this trend is, at least to some degree, politically motivated. Representation for the sake of representation is a concept I have yet to understand – maybe nobody ever properly explained it to me – and in my case it happens to change whatever I enjoy to its detriment.
Thirdly, this particular issue tends to be discussed with moral grandstanding, self-righteousness and outright unwillingness to consider the other side of the argument. I acknowledge that many people are happy with more female miniatures and I'm not saying that I am right or they are wrong – it's a matter of taste. Being branded as someone who hates women will make me very angry, though, which is why I tend to respond in kind whenever I'm confronted with this accusation. Now, take all of this and consider that it's mostly happening in online spaces where discussion tends to ignore normal conventions anyway, and it's suddenly very clear why discussions are often unneccessarily charged.
TL;DR - Sexism and misogyny trying to rationalize itself.
And of course this led to 3 more pages of shitheels coming out of the woodwork to complain about female representation.
Does anyone know what these two are? Are they AOS characters or part of one of the boxed games? Or some specialty limited release box set that scalpers will scoop up in seconds?
I like them both but especially the one on the left with the crossbow.
warboss wrote: Does anyone know what these two are? Are they AOS characters or part of one of the boxed games? Or some specialty limited release box set that scalpers will scoop up in seconds?
I like them both but especially the one on the left with the crossbow.
They're getting released with Broken Realms:Kragnos. Along with the aformentioned and Kroak.
Asherian Command wrote: I have no idea why people are judging something without any context of the actual lore.
We do not have the full picture, getting angry over nothing is just childish. Especially because NAgash's curse was resolved by the God of Light and Allarielle and not by the Sigmarites. So again we are violating the "saturday morning cartoon." With actual consequences for actions. Everyone is talking about oh well "There are no drawbacks see!" We don't even know what the process entails. It might strengthen the problems already present in the stormcasts. Stop judging something if you lack proper context and calling the lore bad, or chilidish if you haven't read it. There is a massive difference between writing to ensure that 13 years old can pick it up, and writing like a 13 year old and some folks on here are getting that extremely mixed around and its not helping this conversation. Please steer this into a more thoughtful discussion. This all lazy critique and armchair commandering.
This is extremely toxic to everyone involved, there is no right answer to how to do the lore right=.
Then maybe GW should should explain a little more than a blanket statement basically invalidating the removal of the last curse that took 3ish years and a whole edition to lift. How else do they think people are going to take the statement about the Belakor cloud.
Theres nothing wrong with expecting/demanding better from a company that is very capable of doing so.
Ok. Anecdote time. From yesterday.
I bought the new Underworlds starter, with Stormcasts and Horse Ghost Things. My first AoS purchase, for a bunch of reasons.
Graphite TNG Senior and Junior, both girls, see the models. They had a few comments (These look cool!) But they had a few questions.
In order:
What's this dog bird thing? (Gryph Hound)
Who are the guys in armour (Magic Knights, one of them's a girl)
Why is only one a girl???
I mean, this is literally the next generation of hobbyists. They already have half a box of Sisters of Battle. The Eldest's favourite blood bowl players are Witch Elves.
So yeah. I'm going to say that for demented Grimdark space fantasy and whatever AoS classifies itself as, we should have a fairly large number of women in the battlefield.
‘I’m not a fan of how the female Stormcast look’ would be one thing, but ‘I think there should be a strict quota on female models’ or ‘female fighters is unrealistic’ is a whole other kettle of fish.
Look at geedubs going full social justice! Gotta check all those boxes for the puritans and fanatics. I’m glad I don’t like most of the new storm cast stuff shown so far. The pandering to the “inclusivity, equity, and diversity”crowd continues, but it just means it’s easier not to buy this stuff. The Celestant chick looks enormous, like the lord celestant is her puny little brother.Don’t like the new masks on the stormcasts, or their spears, or that it’s likely going to be a five model box for 65-70bucks, where 40% will be female. Lame, and not at all “representative” of what percentage play this game or collect, OR how many that actually take up arms to fight in the real world. Just unnecessary. But there’s plenty of the old kits around, so that’s a plus. Looking forward to seeing the box, hopefully it’s not overpopulated by female stormcasts that they ironically are making less feminine looking.
Dread Master wrote: Look at geedubs going full social justice! Gotta check all those boxes for the puritans and fanatics. I’m glad I don’t like most of the new storm cast stuff shown so far. The pandering to the “inclusivity, equity, and diversity”crowd continues, but it just means it’s easier not to buy this stuff. The Celestant chick looks enormous, like the lord celestant is her puny little brother.Don’t like the new masks on the stormcasts, or their spears, or that it’s likely going to be a five model box for 65-70bucks, where 40% will be female. Lame, and not at all “representative” of what percentage play this game or collect, OR how many that actually take up arms to fight in the real world. Just unnecessary. But there’s plenty of the old kits around, so that’s a plus. Looking forward to seeing the box, hopefully it’s not overpopulated by female stormcasts that they ironically are making less feminine looking.
Asherian Command wrote: I have no idea why people are judging something without any context of the actual lore.
We do not have the full picture, getting angry over nothing is just childish. Especially because NAgash's curse was resolved by the God of Light and Allarielle and not by the Sigmarites. So again we are violating the "saturday morning cartoon." With actual consequences for actions. Everyone is talking about oh well "There are no drawbacks see!" We don't even know what the process entails. It might strengthen the problems already present in the stormcasts. Stop judging something if you lack proper context and calling the lore bad, or chilidish if you haven't read it. There is a massive difference between writing to ensure that 13 years old can pick it up, and writing like a 13 year old and some folks on here are getting that extremely mixed around and its not helping this conversation. Please steer this into a more thoughtful discussion. This all lazy critique and armchair commandering.
This is extremely toxic to everyone involved, there is no right answer to how to do the lore right=.
Then maybe GW should should explain a little more than a blanket statement basically invalidating the removal of the last curse that took 3ish years and a whole edition to lift. How else do they think people are going to take the statement about the Belakor cloud.
Theres nothing wrong with expecting/demanding better from a company that is very capable of doing so.
What do you expect them to tell you in a half hour segment? We'll get the info as the articles are released and the full story when the edition hits.
That stormcast head with the dreads is super boss.
I want more of them, along with like pony tails or ronin looks, I just want stormcasts with ronin hats and samurai swords. Or a faction that is just japanese culture mixed with Pacific Tribes. Which would be... fun.
SamusDrake wrote: More interested in who the secret baddies are. I'd go crazy if its Fimirs and Zoats.
there are three theories :
Malerion Dark Elves - Umbraneth Cyclops Frimir Mongolian Hobgoblins.
I am more in favor of Fimir because they sound awesome. And they would be the first cyclopian race in Warhammer to be by itself. And we really need an evil destruction faction that likes to slaughter and murder people. I am guessing it will be a mixture of Fimir and Hobgoblins.
But again thats only based on rumors i've read but considering some of these rumors have been right on the money so far. I am hoping we see more like it.
I think its going to be Fimir and Boglars if theres a "chaff" sub-faction involved, but I would think any such faction runs the risk of being too much like Gloomspite Gitz in playstyle
Would be good to have something else than greenskins
Otherwise, about the Stormcast, I like their new look. And I'm glad there are girls amongst their ranks. We already had them with Sacrosanct Chamber, sure, but I wasn't that fond of robed warriors. Having full armored warriors is better to me.
And their shield really rocks with that design.
If we can have some ranged warriors as well (guess we can have stormguns or something ? ) and another cavalry, it would be perfect. Maybe other angelic troops ?
chaos0xomega wrote: I think its going to be Fimir and Boglars if theres a "chaff" sub-faction involved, but I would think any such faction runs the risk of being too much like Gloomspite Gitz in playstyle
Plus they posted this. SO I am hoping they have a subfaction, and a main faction that are swamp creatures that are fething terrifying.
I am hoping that its like a unique faction, it probably will be as GW seems to not like being repetitive.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sarouan wrote: Would be good to have something else than greenskins
Otherwise, about the Stormcast, I like their new look. And I'm glad there are girls amongst their ranks. We already had them with Sacrosanct Chamber, sure, but I wasn't that fond of robed warriors. Having full armored warriors is better to me.
And their shield really rocks with that design.
If we can have some ranged warriors as well (guess we can have stormguns or something ? ) and another cavalry, it would be perfect. Maybe other angelic troops ?
I am hoping for like a Flying cav option, and then having a golem like unit. But yeah an angelic unit would be great. I mean we have Prosecutors but I hope we have like elite prosecutors.
I think the new stormcast character Yndrasta looks epic. I'd love to include one in a non-stormcast army with some conversion.
Along with her I think my favourite models are Belladama, Radukar and the freaky delaque models, all of which are going to make it into my collection at some point. I'm particularly keen to see what I can do with the delaque models in my admech and GSC armies
I think that today's criticism of additional female stormcast warriors is entirely unwarranted. There's no reason they can't be female so why does it matter that they are? I could appreciate the criticism of female Astartes or male sororitas but the AoS fiction doesn't include gender restrictions and they're wearing some sort of magical soul powered battle plate so the physicality of the wearer doesn't affect their efficacy as warriors.
I don't remember any similar complaints in WHFB when we got witch elves, Valkyr, Morathi, sisters of avelorn or any number of the elf or eldar units that include a proportion obviously female sculpts.
If there's a background reason for the dislike of female stormcast models and if this is a retcon I'd like to hear it, otherwise these comments just seems like a product of RL culture war that needs to be kept out of the hobby and the forum.
zend wrote: Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast?
Oh, that's easy to answer. Sexism. There is no point pretending that it is anything else. There isn't even the fig leaf of 'muh lore' like with the Marines, as female Stormcast were established in the lore from the get go.
Pretty much. It's kind of hilarious to see people get all offended when they're called out on it.
I think the more pertinent question is why is there pushback in a GW IP when it most others it's either applauded or taken so much for granted that it's barely worth comment?
Asherian Command wrote: I have no idea why people are judging something without any context of the actual lore.
We do not have the full picture, getting angry over nothing is just childish. Especially because NAgash's curse was resolved by the God of Light and Allarielle and not by the Sigmarites. So again we are violating the "saturday morning cartoon." With actual consequences for actions. Everyone is talking about oh well "There are no drawbacks see!" We don't even know what the process entails. It might strengthen the problems already present in the stormcasts. Stop judging something if you lack proper context and calling the lore bad, or chilidish if you haven't read it. There is a massive difference between writing to ensure that 13 years old can pick it up, and writing like a 13 year old and some folks on here are getting that extremely mixed around and its not helping this conversation. Please steer this into a more thoughtful discussion. This all lazy critique and armchair commandering.
This is extremely toxic to everyone involved, there is no right answer to how to do the lore right=.
Then maybe GW should should explain a little more than a blanket statement basically invalidating the removal of the last curse that took 3ish years and a whole edition to lift. How else do they think people are going to take the statement about the Belakor cloud.
Theres nothing wrong with expecting/demanding better from a company that is very capable of doing so.
What do you expect them to tell you in a half hour segment? We'll get the info as the articles are released and the full story when the edition hits.
While I freely admit I have only a casual knowledge of the AOS lore I don't anticipate GW producing a satisfactory explanation in the lore. I think what often gets overlooked in lore discussions/comparisons with AOS and WHFB is how reliant WHFB was on the familiarity of its alternate European history base. WHFB was clearly grounded in easily recognized human societies that were easily scaled up with as many layers of fantasy lore that GW or the hobbyist wanted to add. The AOS setting is all fantastical all the time. The realms all seem very magical/mythical to the extent that I think it's difficult for GW to justify how normal creatures exist within them which is reflected in the game having an ever growing cast of superhuman powerful creatures and character models that are either gods or have god level abilities. The realms are so unique that they aren't even physically connected in a singular world setting because that would be too difficult to justify in the lore so we have realm gates and magical teleportation to allow factions to fight each other. If I field my old WHFB Empire army or Bretonnian army as a Free Guild army could my blocks of troops successfully take on Kragnos or one of the other centerpiece models of an opposing faction? I doubt it. So once you start putting models like that on the table it becomes god level hero hammer where troops are just cannon fodder. If the plan is to keep releasing new models that raise the power level/degree of high fantasy it will continue to be difficult to write internally consistent explanations for them in the lore that are more than just a superficial because it's more magically powerful than the old thing was.
I like the aesthetic of the Stormcast Eternals and there's a lot of cool looking AOS models and GW has been a part of my hobby for decades but I'll never be able to get into AOS as long as it continues to have an ever rising price tag for a game whose meta is an arms race of constant churn.
Heck even female humans were established as being strong characters within the first pages of the Realmgate Wars as the default leader of the band of humans fleeing Chaos was a woman. And yes they were fleeing because the world was blasted to bits by Chaos so just being alive was an achievement, let along leading people in a bid to find lands that weren't corrupted and to safety.
And yeah Stormcast were identified as having almost no gender, religious or social bias in terms of who can join their ranks. Sigmar has 0 care for such things, all he seeks is a powerful soul with belief in him and a burning desire to fight chaos (one which he then fuels).
There are armies in AoS with bias - Skaven are all male (though we've hints in the lore that some of the female breeders might be smarter than the Skaven males think and that is a wonderful hook that could one day snare a female or coven rising to overt power).
Daughters of Khaine are almost all female save for a few males that can wield magic, who wear icons of power and control that Morathi blesses to them which lets her kill them with a thought if they ever consider rising up.
I'm 100% all for factions having their own flavour, but even within the short period of lore we have Stormcast are well established to have women in their ranks as a normal element.
zend wrote: Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast?
Oh, that's easy to answer. Sexism. There is no point pretending that it is anything else. There isn't even the fig leaf of 'muh lore' like with the Marines, as female Stormcast were established in the lore from the get go.
Pretty much. It's kind of hilarious to see people get all offended when they're called out on it.
I think its unconstructive to call people insults and what not, just because when they have some views contrary to their viewpoints. Throwing around things like misogyny and sexism like its the name of tour favourite cereal kind of cheapens those things, and really does nothing to prevent actual Sexism and Mysoginy IMO. Food for thought guys..
I have no real horse in this race... Couldn't give two gaks about AOS model range...(apart from vanari dawn riders which make excellent shining spears conversions). I think the bird lady hairstyle looks very familiar though .
zend wrote: Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast?
Oh, that's easy to answer. Sexism. There is no point pretending that it is anything else. There isn't even the fig leaf of 'muh lore' like with the Marines, as female Stormcast were established in the lore from the get go.
Pretty much. It's kind of hilarious to see people get all offended when they're called out on it.
I think its unconstructive to call people insults and what not, just because when they have some views contrary to their viewpoints.
Throwing around things like misogamy and sexism like its the name of tour favourite cereal kind of cheapens those things, and really does nothing to prevent actual Sexism and Mysoginy IMO. Food for thought guys..
I have no real horse in this race... Couldn't give two gaks about AOS model range...(apart from vanari dawn riders which make excellent shining spears conversions). I think the bird lady hairstyle looks very familiar though .
Except wargaming DOES have a huge sexism problem and if you're denying that you're part of the problem.
I think the more pertinent question is why is there pushback in a GW IP when it most others it's either applauded or taken so much for granted that it's barely worth comment?
The vast majority of people on Dakka have been celebrating the inclusion of female Stormcasts ever since their first appearance in... the Underworlds warband I think?
A couple dissenting voices do not qualify as 'pushback'.
zend wrote: Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast?
Oh, that's easy to answer. Sexism. There is no point pretending that it is anything else. There isn't even the fig leaf of 'muh lore' like with the Marines, as female Stormcast were established in the lore from the get go.
Pretty much. It's kind of hilarious to see people get all offended when they're called out on it.
I think its unconstructive to call people insults and what not, just because when they have some views contrary to their viewpoints.
Throwing around things like misogamy and sexism like its the name of tour favourite cereal kind of cheapens those things, and really does nothing to prevent actual Sexism and Mysoginy IMO. Food for thought guys..
I have no real horse in this race... Couldn't give two gaks about AOS model range...(apart from vanari dawn riders which make excellent shining spears conversions). I think the bird lady hairstyle looks very familiar though .
Except wargaming DOES have a huge sexism problem and if you're denying that you're part of the problem.
Easy, keyboard crusader. We have all received the signal of your virtue. Now go paint some toy soldiers and cool off.
I think its unconstructive to call people insults and what not, just because when they have some views contrary to their viewpoints.
Throwing around things like misogyny and sexism like its the name of tour favourite cereal kind of cheapens those things, and really does nothing to prevent actual Sexism and Mysoginy IMO. Food for thought guys..
It was not an insult, it was merely a statement of fact. If people don't want to be called sexist, then that is very easy to achieve: they can stop saying sexist things and stop defending sexist behaviour.
Seriously, misogyny is far bigger problem in this hobby than double turns!
I think the more pertinent question is why is there pushback in a GW IP when it most others it's either applauded or taken so much for granted that it's barely worth comment?
The vast majority of people on Dakka have been celebrating the inclusion of female Stormcasts ever since their first appearance in... the Underworlds warband I think?
A couple dissenting voices do not qualify as 'pushback'.
I believe the first female Stormcast was Neave Blacktalon in the Blightwar box back in 2017.
I think the more pertinent question is why is there pushback in a GW IP when it most others it's either applauded or taken so much for granted that it's barely worth comment?
The vast majority of people on Dakka have been celebrating the inclusion of female Stormcasts ever since their first appearance in... the Underworlds warband I think?
A couple dissenting voices do not qualify as 'pushback'.
Firstly, that's entirely subjective.
Secondly, you're clearly reading a different version of this board.
zend wrote: Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast?
Oh, that's easy to answer. Sexism. There is no point pretending that it is anything else. There isn't even the fig leaf of 'muh lore' like with the Marines, as female Stormcast were established in the lore from the get go.
Pretty much. It's kind of hilarious to see people get all offended when they're called out on it.
I think its unconstructive to call people insults and what not, just because when they have some views contrary to their viewpoints.
Throwing around things like misogamy and sexism like its the name of tour favourite cereal kind of cheapens those things, and really does nothing to prevent actual Sexism and Mysoginy IMO. Food for thought guys..
I have no real horse in this race... Couldn't give two gaks about AOS model range...(apart from vanari dawn riders which make excellent shining spears conversions). I think the bird lady hairstyle looks very familiar though .
Except wargaming DOES have a huge sexism problem and if you're denying that you're part of the problem.
Easy, keyboard crusader. We have all received the signal of your virtue. Now go paint some toy soldiers and cool off.
Congrats on having no idea how to talk to a woman. Did it even cross your mind we exist on this forum?
zend wrote: Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast?
Oh, that's easy to answer. Sexism. There is no point pretending that it is anything else. There isn't even the fig leaf of 'muh lore' like with the Marines, as female Stormcast were established in the lore from the get go.
Pretty much. It's kind of hilarious to see people get all offended when they're called out on it.
I think its unconstructive to call people insults and what not, just because when they have some views contrary to their viewpoints. Throwing around things like misogamy and sexism like its the name of tour favourite cereal kind of cheapens those things, and really does nothing to prevent actual Sexism and Mysoginy IMO. Food for thought guys..
I have no real horse in this race... Couldn't give two gaks about AOS model range...(apart from vanari dawn riders which make excellent shining spears conversions). I think the bird lady hairstyle looks very familiar though .
Except wargaming DOES have a huge sexism problem and if you're denying that you're part of the problem.
You dont think there is anything wrong with framing your response in such a way where by default any counter argument or non compliant response amounts to "being the problem"?
Sorry mate but I just disagree with your assessment that wargaming has a HUGE sexism problem. And this does not make me any of the things that I mentioned above.
Dread Master wrote: Look at geedubs going full social justice! Gotta check all those boxes for the puritans and fanatics. I’m glad I don’t like most of the new storm cast stuff shown so far. The pandering to the “inclusivity, equity, and diversity”crowd continues, but it just means it’s easier not to buy this stuff. The Celestant chick looks enormous, like the lord celestant is her puny little brother.Don’t like the new masks on the stormcasts, or their spears, or that it’s likely going to be a five model box for 65-70bucks, where 40% will be female. Lame, and not at all “representative” of what percentage play this game or collect, OR how many that actually take up arms to fight in the real world. Just unnecessary. But there’s plenty of the old kits around, so that’s a plus. Looking forward to seeing the box, hopefully it’s not overpopulated by female stormcasts that they ironically are making less feminine looking.
And responses like this are exactly why we both need more women playing the hobby and more female sculpts in the various miniature ranges that GW produces. I don't know why you're so dead set against diversity and being more inclusive in the hobby, but I'm all for both of those things. More women and people in general playing and collecting Warhammer just means even more awesome opponents to play against and hobbyists to talk to.
zend wrote: Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast?
Oh, that's easy to answer. Sexism. There is no point pretending that it is anything else. There isn't even the fig leaf of 'muh lore' like with the Marines, as female Stormcast were established in the lore from the get go.
Pretty much. It's kind of hilarious to see people get all offended when they're called out on it.
I think its unconstructive to call people insults and what not, just because when they have some views contrary to their viewpoints.
Throwing around things like misogamy and sexism like its the name of tour favourite cereal kind of cheapens those things, and really does nothing to prevent actual Sexism and Mysoginy IMO. Food for thought guys..
I have no real horse in this race... Couldn't give two gaks about AOS model range...(apart from vanari dawn riders which make excellent shining spears conversions). I think the bird lady hairstyle looks very familiar though .
Except wargaming DOES have a huge sexism problem and if you're denying that you're part of the problem.
You dont think there is anything wrong with framing your response in such a way where by default any counter argument or non compliant response amounts to "being the problem"?
Sorry mate but I just disagree with your assessment that wargaming has a HUGE sexism problem. And this does not make me any of the things that I mentioned above.
I am happy to discuss this in more depth on PM.
No thanks, I prefer not to PM people who deny reality.
Unlike the other stormcast shown, he has a scenic base. And what looks like an orruk glyph on the ground. I really hope it's not a greenskin faction, but fimir. But that definitely looks very orruk-y
The Eldar type races have always had female models, it makes sense that all of the human factions would have them as well. Humanity in 40k or Sigmar are not in a place to refuse a soldier of any sort.
Feth me, came back to this clownshow after being gone all day!
Gender literally has no influence on my gaming, who really gives a feth about this? New stormcast hero looks Damn sharp even if I couldn't care less about a new version of AOS.
Overall feelings of WH fest, underwhelming for me, but thats because my factions weren't highlighted so I'm not going to begrudge those players who are finally seeing models releases for their faction.
Sisters were ok, but sad that old codex is getting replaced already. Happy for ork players, hope your codex gives you what you need.
Tsons and GK, ok...but we know nothing at this point.
Chaos needs a release, Damn. I can wait for Eldar because i want models more than a codex.
Id give the whole thing a 5/10. Nothing really mind blowing....but that's ok.
Unlike the other stormcast shown, he has a scenic base. And what looks like an orruk glyph on the ground. I really hope it's not a greenskin faction, but fimir. But that definitely looks very orruk-y
All I see is a sanguinary guard minus a jetpack.. Literally Cant see anything else.. Wish I could.
Argive wrote: Out of interest do people genuinely think there will be a new facon? Or they will bundle the various vampire things as the oponents in the box?
Kind of hope blood knights will be available at a discount..
I think there's a lot of people hoping Destruction gets some attention and with Vampires now cleaning up most of the Death Grand Alliance into modern plastics (expecting a new varghalf to be part of the vampire release to replace the flesheaters one). It leaves room on the plate to expand and explore Destruction some more and perhaps either bolster and update the orruks or even introduce new ideas and concepts into them. IT could be boggy vampires stealing people away, that certainly fits with vampires and ghouls. At the same time there's all this subtle commentary on Destruction causing a huge shake up of things
I was just curious why people don’t like the newer female Stormcast to the point that having a 50/50 mix of male/female bodies is an issue. Neave Blacktalon was a bad model, but they’ve gotten significantly better since then and even since the Sacrosanct models at 2.0’s launch. These new models all look great, especially for their conversion possibilities for stuff like AoS-28.
But anyways, new Ork codex... soon....
‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO
‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO
Argive wrote: Out of interest do people genuinely think there will be a new facon? Or they will bundle the various vampire things as the oponents in the box?
Kind of hope blood knights will be available at a discount..
I think there's a lot of people hoping Destruction gets some attention and with Vampires now cleaning up most of the Death Grand Alliance into modern plastics (expecting a new varghalf to be part of the vampire release to replace the flesheaters one). It leaves room on the plate to expand and explore Destruction some more and perhaps either bolster and update the orruks or even introduce new ideas and concepts into them. IT could be boggy vampires stealing people away, that certainly fits with vampires and ghouls. At the same time there's all this subtle commentary on Destruction causing a huge shake up of things
The new giant centaur guy looks awesome but really doesn't fit with gargants or orks. As an outsider I cant fathom why he's not part of beastment faction.
Unlike the other stormcast shown, he has a scenic base. And what looks like an orruk glyph on the ground. I really hope it's not a greenskin faction, but fimir. But that definitely looks very orruk-y
Thats probably because he is an easy to build so he will come with a scenic base, as is standard with GW models for the starter kits.
zend wrote: I was just curious why people don’t like the newer female Stormcast to the point that having a 50/50 mix of male/female bodies is an issue. Neave Blacktalon was a bad model, but they’ve gotten significantly better since then and even since the Sacrosanct models at 2.0’s launch. These new models all look great, especially for their conversion possibilities for stuff like AoS-28.
But anyways, new Ork codex... soon....
‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO
Any bets on what the Combat Patrol will include?
My money is on either : New Ork boss in mega armour or (painboy?) as HQ + A truk,+ squad of oldboys, and one of the the buggies - I get confused which buggies because orks. I think that would be a pretty decent army in a box.
Argive wrote: Out of interest do people genuinely think there will be a new facon? Or they will bundle the various vampire things as the oponents in the box?
Kind of hope blood knights will be available at a discount..
I think there's a lot of people hoping Destruction gets some attention and with Vampires now cleaning up most of the Death Grand Alliance into modern plastics (expecting a new varghalf to be part of the vampire release to replace the flesheaters one). It leaves room on the plate to expand and explore Destruction some more and perhaps either bolster and update the orruks or even introduce new ideas and concepts into them. IT could be boggy vampires stealing people away, that certainly fits with vampires and ghouls. At the same time there's all this subtle commentary on Destruction causing a huge shake up of things
The new giant centaur guy looks awesome but really doesn't fit with gargants or orks. As an outsider I cant fathom why he's not part of beastment faction.
I mean I don't think anyone outside of GW really fathoms that out either at present
I hope that the lore and perhaps a new faction in Destruction (not necessarily centaur creatures) will start to diversify them.
AT the same time AoS has in general shown far more mingling of races and factions in the lore compared to the Old World, where most kept very much to themselves. This could just be a way to show that, even on the tabletop, this mingling happens within certain circles. It's a neat way to show in-faction species mingling and interactions outside of alliance rules, which are often clumsy ways to represent such (because armies are are balanced on their own and having wide ranging allied forces often min-max breaks things)
Switching beastemnt to destruction could be a thing. Even in the old world I never really thought of them as chaos in the same way as warriors of chaos were chaos.
Something I should've brought up first is that I do love the new Sigmarine valkyr, great convertion fodder for 40K Saints too. I really like how she stands out with that metallic armour.
I also like the new armour for the Sigmarines too... in part. I still don't like gender-locked armour. I'd get it if they were an entire Brother/Sisterhood, but chiseled pecs and dumb boob armor are not something that I enjoy, despite being a defender of SCE since day 0. I'd rather have them wearing a cardboard box instead of that those dumb looking chest pieces. I know this is a fantasy game (and every fantasy game is "high fantasy"), but it still has to have some logic to itself.
I'd also prefer different boxes of male and female miniatures for anyone who prefers a full male or female force, but that just applies for any game that has forces with that degree of sexual dimorfism.
I also enjoyed the new Sigmarine Termi-Anihilator, and the new spears and shields are much cooler than the cartoony original release, and I also enjoyed that they are refering to Grungni as the author of the new armours: it helps to further connect the fact that Sigmarines can also be dwarfs.
I'm on the Fimir boat too, but I am not sure if they will be Destruction as they used to be in FW or Chaos like in Norsca for TWWH2.
Argive wrote: Switching beastemnt to destruction could be a thing. Even in the old world I never really thought of them as chaos in the same way as warriors of chaos were chaos.
I can't see that happening en-mass unless GW is going to make them cross-grand alliance compatible.
Thing is right now Beastmen have a lot of units within chaos that fit into neat alliance blocks and merge well with chaos god forces. So I can't see them leaving chaos; but perhaps becoming half and half could be done. That said I don't know how much chaos iconography there is on the standard models.
Argive wrote: Switching beastemnt to destruction could be a thing. Even in the old world I never really thought of them as chaos in the same way as warriors of chaos were chaos.
In the old world is was made very clear though. Aren't they intrinsically linked to Chaos anymore in AoS?
ph34r wrote: The Eldar type races have always had female models, it makes sense that all of the human factions would have them as well. Humanity in 40k or Sigmar are not in a place to refuse a soldier of any sort.
True, elves seem to be stereotyped as a very egalitarian society and GW extended it into their space elves too. In contrast dwarves seem to be stuck with the stereotype of very strict gender roles in their society to the point of female dwarves being depicted very rarely in games, lore or novels.
I don't understand the reasoning behind not approving of more female stormcast models unless people feel a strong preference for the way Northstar does it with separate boxes of male and female models.
I also don't think it's helpful to push the idea that female hobbyists need to use female models in game. I just let me daughter choose whatever she wants. Yes, she does choose female models but she also chooses male models, monsters, aliens, robots, whatever else she wants. The same way I don't worry about my sons using male and female skins for their FortNite avatars, whatever they want is fine. I don't think the lack of female factions is an obstacle for female hobbyists to play Napoleonics.
Argive wrote: Switching beastemnt to destruction could be a thing. Even in the old world I never really thought of them as chaos in the same way as warriors of chaos were chaos.
Call me a grognard, but taking the Chaos out of Beastmen would suck hard. They were always conceptually the most interesting faction of Chaos - the forever rejected, forever spiteful firstborn, feeding on the scraps of the 'love' their parent lavishes on others.
GOATMAN SMASH just doesn't seem like a particularly interesting premise when ORC SMASH already exists.
zend wrote: I was just curious why people don’t like the newer female Stormcast to the point that having a 50/50 mix of male/female bodies is an issue. Neave Blacktalon was a bad model, but they’ve gotten significantly better since then and even since the Sacrosanct models at 2.0’s launch. These new models all look great, especially for their conversion possibilities for stuff like AoS-28.
But anyways, new Ork codex... soon....
‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO
‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO ‘ERE WE GO
Any bets on what the Combat Patrol will include?
I don't care what they do to Stormcast personally, but I can understand why people might have a problem with it. If an Empire unit was 50/50 male and female I wouldn't buy it, unless I could swap the females with someone. Separate boxes are the best of both worlds, but we all know the females wouldn't sell enough to justify it, which opens up some cruel realities that people aren't ready to cope with.
Argive wrote: Switching beastemnt to destruction could be a thing. Even in the old world I never really thought of them as chaos in the same way as warriors of chaos were chaos.
I can't see that happening en-mass unless GW is going to make them cross-grand alliance compatible.
Thing is right now Beastmen have a lot of units within chaos that fit into neat alliance blocks and merge well with chaos god forces. So I can't see them leaving chaos; but perhaps becoming half and half could be done. That said I don't know how much chaos iconography there is on the standard models.
BertBert wrote:
Argive wrote: Switching beastemnt to destruction could be a thing. Even in the old world I never really thought of them as chaos in the same way as warriors of chaos were chaos.
In the old world is was made very clear though. Aren't they intrinsically linked to Chaos anymore in AoS?
hear me out here.. From a purely personal viewpoint. Beastmen always struck me more as "beasts" then men if you catch my drift. Like they really love wreck things but thats coz thats how they are ( alot like orks) amd not in order to achieve goals. I suppose their "hatred" is the tie to chaos whereas greenskins just do it "coz we iz orks init"
I would like to caveat this that I never collected beastmen and dont own their books as im a HE player. My ramblings...
BUT more pertinent, I think this situation is symptom of the "grand alliance" concept. Its one of the main things that really puts me off AOS. And it seems Kragnos was shoe horned into destruction because destruction just didn't really have a main centrepiece model named hero figure head. Or did they ?
I also don't think it's helpful to push the idea that female hobbyists need to use female models in game. I just let me daughter choose whatever she wants. Yes, she does choose female models but she also chooses male models, monsters, aliens, robots, whatever else she wants. The same way I don't worry about my sons using male and female skins for their FortNite avatars, whatever they want is fine. I don't think the lack of female factions is an obstacle for female hobbyists to play Napoleonics.
I haven't seen anyone here pushing the idea that women need to use female sculpts in game. It's more that representation matters, so a more diverse number of sculpts being available is great. I'm also seeing GW recently presenting a far wider range of skintones in their painted minis. Again, representation matters, and it's great that the company is moving away from a sea of white faces. In a setting as wide-ranging as Warhammer 40,000(a hundred billion citizens in the Imperium, and all that) and Age of Sigmar(the Mortal Realms being practically endless), there absolutely should be a diverse range of both skintones and a bigger representation of female miniatures.
Nobody is pushing anyone to play with miniatures that they don't like - it's your army, play what you like - but at the same time, the option to have gender-diverse armies is good too. A few years ago I saw someone literally try to argue that "the females can play Tyranids or Sisters of Battle if they want to play 40K", and this was long before plastic Sisters of Battle were even an idea.
Beast Snaggas: quite excited. I really wanted to get the box, even despite the number of repeated boyz. That being said, that same thing makes it okay if I miss it; the lower price will not be entirely justified me as it would have been for other armies, like Lumineth and SoB, because they will eventually get their SC!/CP, unlike Beast Snaggas, but again, I will fill that BS (go figure out...) Boyz will have less value than fully customizable versions.
That being said, I want to order enough suicide grot on squig missiles to equip each rokkit launcha I have, just as a cosmetic flavor.
I LOVE Zodgrod, and the detail of his hair: it is stapled on his skin!
Mega-armoured Warboss: Simply brilliant, and he reminds me a lot of DoW series and even a bit of one of Garrosh's skins in Heroes of the Storm. Hope he has at least another ranged weapon option. It'd be fantastic if he somehow had a Power Klaw and a Basha.
IG Upgrade sprue: torn apart here; why an upgrade instead of upgrading the whole kit? I really love the Dirty Harry head and many of those bare heads just scream "Catachan", but they could've just made a new kit with them instead of some pieces looking good and a lot of the model looking quite dated.
Boyz, hopefully a Trukk, Grukk's Boss, who I expect to become generic HQ, and with him Nobz. So, pretty much what you'd expect. I'd be surprised if I see Warbikes/Trikes, or the soon to be released Mega-armoured Warboss: so far every single CP has had at least the newest kit for their faction (can't tell for sure for the next AdMech, but the Skorpius is still really recent), so I'd be on to with that because I have been waiting for a while for a propa' Evil Sunz/Kult of Speed army.
Jesus Christ, when did this forum get overrun by incels?
I mean, it's been obvious for awhile this forum is only staying afloat by neckbeard GW bashing, so I guess the mods are cool with rampant misogyny so long as its keeps the servers on.
Nobody is pushing anyone to play with miniatures that they don't like - it's your army, play what you like - but at the same time, the option to have gender-diverse armies is good too.
"Option" being the key word here. Being able to build up to 10 male or 10 female miniatures out of one kit would be ideal, but it's never going to happen.
Thirdly, this particular issue tends to be discussed with moral grandstanding, self-righteousness and outright unwillingness to consider the other side of the argument. I acknowledge that many people are happy with more female miniatures and I'm not saying that I am right or they are wrong – it's a matter of taste. Being branded as someone who hates women will make me very angry, though, which is why I tend to respond in kind whenever I'm confronted with this accusation. Now, take all of this and consider that it's mostly happening in online spaces where discussion tends to ignore normal conventions anyway, and it's suddenly very clear why discussions are often unneccessarily charged.
You shouldn't be irritated by it, the angriest and most fraught accusations invariably end up being from the most touch-starved looking guys that anyone's ever seen, it's almost as if wildly overblown accusations shot off on hair trigger are an attempt to compensate for something else.
Thirdly, this particular issue tends to be discussed with moral grandstanding, self-righteousness and outright unwillingness to consider the other side of the argument. I acknowledge that many people are happy with more female miniatures and I'm not saying that I am right or they are wrong – it's a matter of taste. Being branded as someone who hates women will make me very angry, though, which is why I tend to respond in kind whenever I'm confronted with this accusation. Now, take all of this and consider that it's mostly happening in online spaces where discussion tends to ignore normal conventions anyway, and it's suddenly very clear why discussions are often unneccessarily charged.
You shouldn't be irritated by it, the angriest and most fraught accusations invariably end up being from the most touch-starved looking guys that anyone's ever seen, it's almost as if wildly overblown accusations shot off on hair trigger are an attempt to compensate for something else.
I thinkt he more this discussion carries on the quicker this thread gets locked and killed. Do we want that ?
Yes, the faster this abomination of a thread is exterminated, the sooner we can go back to safe subjects, like 10mm Horus Heresy, or the inevitable and imminent revival of Warmaster.
zend wrote: Also why is there pushback on female Stormcast?
Oh, that's easy to answer. Sexism. There is no point pretending that it is anything else. There isn't even the fig leaf of 'muh lore' like with the Marines, as female Stormcast were established in the lore from the get go.
Pretty much. It's kind of hilarious to see people get all offended when they're called out on it.
I think its unconstructive to call people insults and what not, just because when they have some views contrary to their viewpoints.
Throwing around things like misogyny and sexism like its the name of tour favourite cereal kind of cheapens those things, and really does nothing to prevent actual Sexism and Mysoginy IMO. Food for thought guys..
I have no real horse in this race... Couldn't give two gaks about AOS model range...(apart from vanari dawn riders which make excellent shining spears conversions). I think the bird lady hairstyle looks very familiar though .
What else do you call someone who discriminates against someone or the inclusion of someone on the basis of sex or gender, specifically against women? Thats literally the definition of sexism and misogyny.
Easy, keyboard crusader. We have all received the signal of your virtue. Now go paint some toy soldiers and cool off.
Ah, the old virtue signaling chestnut, the hallmark of someone who is intellectually bereft of the ability to actually discuss the topic of hand and too morally and emotionally immature to comprehend that people aren't defending inclusion to "signal" anything, but because they legitimately believe that its a cause worth defending.
Out of interest do people genuinely think there will be a new facon? Or they will bundle the various vampire things as the oponents in the box?
Kind of hope blood knights will be available at a discount..
Soulblight had a new faction (Nighthaunt), so yeah I think theres a good possibility of it. Swamp vampires are a possibility, but with the new edition being framed around Ghur and with their statements to the effect that the forces of Destruction are taking new prominence, I very much doubt it would be Vamps.
I'm sure Blood Knights will make their way into a Start Collecting box (or whatever the AoS3.0 version of the 40k Combat Patrol ends up being called), there aren't many options for Soulblight that would make sense in a set like that (then again... the Death Guard box is evidence of how silly these boxes could be). In any case, it seems quite a few AoS factions have received a 2-player battle box within around 6 months of release (as was the case with Feast of Bones which actually came out before Ossiarch Bonereapers proper did, and Gloomspite Gitz in Looncurse).
(expecting a new varghalf to be part of the vampire release to replace the flesheaters one)
They stated that they have already revealed the entirety of the new releases for Soulblight Gravelords - if a new Varghulf is coming as part of Soulblight we're going to be waiting quite some time for it.
I hope that the lore and perhaps a new faction in Destruction (not necessarily centaur creatures) will start to diversify them.
I'm still hoping/wishing Kurnothi end up as a destruction faction rather than an order faction, but I very much doubt thats the way it would go. Would be nice to see "anti" factions that buck trends and present narrative twists to the setting, like chaos duardin, or feral destruction beastmen that worship Kragnos, or Order undead (maybe veering a bit too far into Moorcock interpretations of Order/Law, but imagine an undead faction that was themed more around a stagnating bureaucracy of death, tasked by Nagash to maintain a tally of the bodies and souls claimed and ensure a proper balance or some gak, and to keep track of the punishments and afterlife assignments of the dead, etc. etc. They become so focused on doing a good job that they break ranks with Nagash because he isn't filing the proper paperwork and the Necroquake fethed everything up, etc. so they cast their lot in with Sigmar to restore order to the afterlife or something. Like, an army of grim reapers).
A few years ago I saw someone literally try to argue that "the females can play Tyranids or Sisters of Battle if they want to play 40K", and this was long before plastic Sisters of Battle were even an idea.
I've literally seen this exact argument pop up over and over again in 40k circles, sometimes with the addition of Necrons as well. I don't know who out there sits there and thinks to themselves that this is a reasonable argument or defense for a lack of female minis in GWs product range, but here we are. Whats astounding is that Aeldari, Ynnari, Drukhari, and Harlequins exist and have a decent mix of male/female minis (though still not quite enough to be an equitable and diverse distribution), yet they seem to be constantly overlooked by the people suggesting that Tyranids are somehow representative of women?
There are Chaos Duardin, just so y'know. It seems to be a minor footnote right now though. They're Archaon's version of Grugni, bringing him all the goodies for doom from what I remember. Based in Aqshy towards one of the lava seas.
I get why people like warmaster.. But.. I just dont see it for TOW.
28mm Painters and hobbyist will probably not want to paint 15mm infantry. In the same vein GW wont be able to market them for their "hobby". yes this is entirely my point of view. I havent done a poll.
Someone accused me of "never seeing warmaster minatures" in person when i made this point before. I have.. And I would not willingly waste time trying to paint those personally. Its hard enough to get 28mm eldar guardians to look good. A blob of 15mm spearmen and any level of detail? No friggin way.
I'm sure warmster rules are available for free somewhere. Surely with advent of 3d printing somebody on this board has done this?
In this vein, out of interest,
has anyone done this ? Does anyone have examples of 15mm fantasy infantry that looks good they can share ?
One of the main problems when shifting scale is that new techniques must often be learned, this applies to moving up as well as down, which is one of the various reasons cited for the failure of =][= (544mm).
See, to me, even with professional looking paint jobs and much better skillset than what I, or most average painters could do/ willing to do, they just look really goofy.
I do like the heroic Romans. They look like they been eating that god ol spinach. Adorable.
But compare to Warlords Hail ceasar romans at not heroic 28mm (apparently they are more closer to 25mm) 1/56th scale they are much better looking romans..
I guess it boils down to a matter of prefernce.
But, how much of the appeal is driven by the rules system vs the actual minatures? Would people who like warmaster be content with 28mm scale but with warmaster rules.
Sick of seeing sexless adult men get angry at the prospect of an equal ratio of tiny plastic women in a few box sets of little plastic toys for a game they *maybe* play?
Try the ignore button today!
The ignore button significantly reduces unwanted noise, vitriol, and dog whistling, by getting straight to the root of the cause, blocking out the grown-ass adults who have come to believe that their hobby is threatened by tiny toys having an entire box more gender equality before, and then being outraged when people say that maybe it's silly to be upset about that.
The ignore button. For all your internet pissbaby needs.
(side effects may include reduced blood pressure, violent diarrhea, heart attacks and death, being surrounded by white knights, an ability to actually enjoy threads in News and Rumors, fully painted armies in weeks and a sudden growth in penis size)
I also don't think it's helpful to push the idea that female hobbyists need to use female models in game. I just let me daughter choose whatever she wants. Yes, she does choose female models but she also chooses male models, monsters, aliens, robots, whatever else she wants. The same way I don't worry about my sons using male and female skins for their FortNite avatars, whatever they want is fine. I don't think the lack of female factions is an obstacle for female hobbyists to play Napoleonics.
I haven't seen anyone here pushing the idea that women need to use female sculpts in game. It's more that representation matters, so a more diverse number of sculpts being available is great. I'm also seeing GW recently presenting a far wider range of skintones in their painted minis. Again, representation matters, and it's great that the company is moving away from a sea of white faces. In a setting as wide-ranging as Warhammer 40,000(a hundred billion citizens in the Imperium, and all that) and Age of Sigmar(the Mortal Realms being practically endless), there absolutely should be a diverse range of both skintones and a bigger representation of female miniatures.
Nobody is pushing anyone to play with miniatures that they don't like - it's your army, play what you like - but at the same time, the option to have gender-diverse armies is good too. A few years ago I saw someone literally try to argue that "the females can play Tyranids or Sisters of Battle if they want to play 40K", and this was long before plastic Sisters of Battle were even an idea.
I whole heartedly agree that more options are always better than less options. I’m a firm believer in hobbying without gatekeeping, that there really isn’t a wrong way to hobby because it’s a personal hobby. A person’s army or collection should look however he/she wants them to look and I’m happy to get a game in with anyone playing anything.
It’s great to have options to represent more diverse armies I just push back against the limiting mindset that there has to be a direct representation to be appealing. A female hobbyist can enjoy an all male dwarf faction as much as a male hobbyist can enjoy playing SOB in 40k. You don’t need to be an Anglo to enjoy playing the English Civil War or replaying the battle of Hastings. The greater the diversity and options in war gaming the better the hobby becomes but I don’t think believing that we need this army to appeal to those people is the best mindset to use to get there.
Sick of seeing sexless adult men get angry at the prospect of an equal ratio of tiny plastic women in a few box sets of little plastic toys for a game they *maybe* play?
Try the ignore button today!
The ignore button significantly reduces unwanted noise, vitriol, and dog whistling, by getting straight to the root of the cause, blocking out the grown-ass adults who have come to believe that their hobby is threatened by tiny toys having an entire box more gender equality before, and then being outraged when people say that maybe it's silly to be upset about that.
The ignore button. For all you internet pissbaby needs.
(side effects may include reduced blood pressure, violent diarrhea, heart attacks and death, being surrounded by white knights, an ability to actually enjoy threads in News and Rumors, fully painted armies in weeks and a sudden growth in penis size)
I have to say I feel this new stormcasts are less primaris marines and more Phase II clone troopers vs Phase I clone troopers. It is just a change of equipement, and it makes sense in a moving storyline like AoS has.
All I see is a sanguinary guard minus a jetpack.. Literally Cant see anything else.. Wish I could.
No nipples. They were the defining element of the Sanguinary Guard model according to the discussion thread at the time on dakka so therefore this is totally different. You're welcome.
Starfarer wrote: Jesus Christ, when did this forum get overrun by incels?
I mean, it's been obvious for awhile this forum is only staying afloat by neckbeard GW bashing, so I guess the mods are cool with rampant misogyny so long as its keeps the servers on.
No, the mods are not ok with rampant misogyny... but it's only 'rampant' in this thread if you ignore, like, most of the thread, including the responses to those 'rampant' posts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: I have to say I feel this new stormcasts are less primaris marines and more Phase II clone troopers vs Phase I clone troopers. It is just a change of equipement, and it makes sense in a moving storyline like AoS has.
Pretty much this. I was struggling to see a difference, other than the switch from leather strips hanging off the belt to a mail skirt.
I whole heartedly agree that more options are always better than less options. I’m a firm believer in hobbying without gatekeeping, that there really isn’t a wrong way to hobby because it’s a personal hobby. A person’s army or collection should look however he/she wants them to look and I’m happy to get a game in with anyone playing anything.
It’s great to have options to represent more diverse armies I just push back against the limiting mindset that there has to be a direct representation to be appealing. A female hobbyist can enjoy an all male dwarf faction as much as a male hobbyist can enjoy playing SOB in 40k. You don’t need to be an Anglo to enjoy playing the English Civil War or replaying the battle of Hastings. The greater the diversity and options in war gaming the better the hobby becomes but I don’t think believing that we need this army to appeal to those people is the best mindset to use to get there.
This is a really odd take, TBH.
Here's the thing - representation is ultimately just a way of making the game appealing to a wider audience. Sure, some women might be happy playing an all male faction. But they're not the people you're targeting by including more female models. You're aiming at the people who don't want to use an all male faction. Those who do can still do so, but you've added the potential to engage potential customers who otherwise simply wouldn't have been interested.
It’s great to have options to represent more diverse armies I just push back against the limiting mindset that there has to be a direct representation to be appealing. A female hobbyist can enjoy an all male dwarf faction as much as a male hobbyist can enjoy playing SOB in 40k. You don’t need to be an Anglo to enjoy playing the English Civil War or replaying the battle of Hastings. The greater the diversity and options in war gaming the better the hobby becomes but I don’t think believing that we need this army to appeal to those people is the best mindset to use to get there.
I don't know if it's necessarily a 'limiting mindset'. I know several women who play orks, Eldar, and Tyranids and are perfectly happy playing those armies. At the same time, I've seen more than one comment on social media from women to the effect that they're glad that companies are starting to diversify their ranges a bit more and that the reason they started in the hobby was because of Sisters of Battle/Morathi/other faction with lots of female models. Women, surprisingly enough, are people just like anybody else. One may really love chaos space marines in all their heretic glory, while another wasn't sure about the hobby until she saw all the cool Sylvaneth sculpts(random examples here, but hopefully you get my point).
I'm a middle-aged white male, I don't need any extra representation in my wargames. All I have to do is throw a rock to find dozens of factions and minis that are catered specifically to me. Women and minorities don't have that luxury, so every little bit, every cool female sculpt, every mini with a non-white skintone makes me happy to see because that might just mean that one more person has a chance to get into this hobby because they saw some inspiration in a miniature.
I also don't think it's helpful to push the idea that female hobbyists need to use female models in game. I just let me daughter choose whatever she wants. Yes, she does choose female models but she also chooses male models, monsters, aliens, robots, whatever else she wants. The same way I don't worry about my sons using male and female skins for their FortNite avatars, whatever they want is fine. I don't think the lack of female factions is an obstacle for female hobbyists to play Napoleonics.
Your statement here makes no sense, whatsoever.
If you think the mere inclusion/availability of female models is "pushing the idea that female models must be used" then the inclusion of male models would, necessarily, be "pushing the idea that male models must be used". There were multiple decades where Games Workshop released male:female models at probably 100:1.
Were you sounding the alarm that whole time, and telling your fellow hobbyists about your concern that GW was pushing the idea that male models must be used?
Well sheet. If this thread doesn't ant to die on its own lets help it.
Genuine question. people complain about lack of representation. People apploud increased representation. Some people also feel theres now too much representation to the point its not organic and is done purely to appease those demanding representation.
A post was deleted further up which put this really well. Much beter than what Im about to do.
So the question is as follows.
What is optimal representation & diversity?
As in what needs to happen in order for everybody to be happy with "representation"?
At what point are people going to be happy with representation? What does it actually mean? Is this the same thing as deiversity?
I haven't seen anyone able to articulate that.
Even had someone say I don't live in reality when I refuted the fact that wargaming is not at base level mysogynistic and sexist in agragate.
At what point are people going to be satified ? What is the end game here? Dooes this mean that every box that contains male and female race will need to be split 50/50 of which each ethnicity will need to be covered by stereotypes?
Like if they release a unit of 3 guys. Is one of them being a woman representation? Then somebody will ask: But why only one woman? Then someobdy else: Why not two? Then somebody else: Then why is there only one guy ? Then: why are they all women and no guys? And we go back full circle.
I'd say roughly equal numbers of men, women, gay, straight, black, and white representation in all things wherever possible. That covers the important demographics and also makes a lot of sense in most ways, and where it doesn't it's still desirable.
JWBS wrote: I'd say roughly equal numbers of men, women, gay, straight, black, and white representation in all things wherever possible. That covers the important demographics and also makes a lot of sense in most ways, and where it doesn't it's still desirable.
I'm not hearing any specific answers though.. "all things wherever possible and the most important demographics?"
Are you advocating quotas? Important demographics for whom. You ? Me? Someone from Subsaharan Africa? Or someone in Japan?
What demographic do you base these "fair quotas on?" UK? USA? France? Eastern Europe? Russia? China? Japan? Ghana? The world?
JWBS wrote: I'd say roughly equal numbers of men, women, gay, straight, black, and white representation in all things wherever possible. That covers the important demographics and also makes a lot of sense in most ways, and where it doesn't it's still desirable.
Agreed. It never hurts to have representation in games. These are fantasy games and people like to feel that they are included in the narrative regardless of how the real world is, and I am all for that. Doing this generally also expands properties outside of the traditional base of the game. Look at Dungeons and Dragons for example. The game made efforts to be more inclusive and now you have many more people playing it. Where I work a fair number of people play it, and probably 2/3rds of them are women. Growing up in 2nd/early 3rd editions I almost never saw anyone women anywhere near a D&D game, or even in hobby stores in general.
In short, having roughly equal representation in games means that more people will feel included and as such are able to approach and enjoy the hobby. In addition it means the game gets a larger player base, which is awesome for new and existing players.
I don’t really see why some people are so upset about it.
You guys are not really answering the question that is being asked.
"diversity good" is not an answer on how you achieve and measure it within a product range.. Which is what's being asked. How do you achieve it in order to make everyone happy.
You're not going to find a magic number at which everyone will be satisfied, because everyone has different ideas of what is required in order to feel represented.
But, ultimately, I don't think that's what the vast majority of people who feel unrepresented are asking for. They just want to feel included in a way that isn't a token effort.
Argive wrote: You guys are not really answering the question that is being asked.
"diversity good" is not an answer on how you achieve and measure it within a product range.. Which is what's being asked. How do you achieve it in order to make everyone happy.
Because you asked a stupid question. You probably know you asked a stupid question. You probably asked it because you know how difficult it is to answer.
I don't know what "optimal representation" is. I do know it's not 100% white men.
insaniak wrote: You're not going to find a magic number at which everyone will be satisfied, because everyone has different ideas of what is required in order to feel represented.
But, ultimately, I don't think that's what the vast majority of people who feel unrepresented are asking for. They just want to feel included in a way that isn't a token effort.
How can it ever be anything more than a token effort unless you have a goal by which to measure?
JWBS wrote: I'd say roughly equal numbers of men, women, gay, straight, black, and white representation in all things wherever possible. That covers the important demographics and also makes a lot of sense in most ways, and where it doesn't it's still desirable.
What about Hispanics? Asians? They aren’t “important” to you?
How can it ever be anything more than a token effort unless you have a goal by which to measure?
How do you determine whether or not a store has good customer service?
How do you determine whether or not you like a particular food?
How do you determine whether or not your neighbour is a nice person?
Not everything can be quantified. A lot of the time, it's entirely subjective, and the best you can do is the take a stab at it, take on the feedback that results from it, and determine from that whether or not you need to do better.
That's the case here. There is no magical, defined point at which an 'Optimum Diversity' achievement is unlocked and a big shiny badge pinned to your corporate existence. It's up to companies making product to determine based on customer reaction to their range whether or not their efforts so far have been sufficient, and what to do about that.
I dunno, personally I feel representation requires context. For example, if its a historical wargame with a set time period, I would assume historical accuracy takes precedence over racial representation, so like there would be no Asian soldiers during the War of the Roses. Frankly, representation matters less to me than a well-crafted setting and product, since most of the time people who are overly concerned about representation focus on it almost exclusively to the detriment of everything else. I know growing up as a kid that I was happy with heroes like Batman, Spider-Man and Static Shock even though I'm neither white or black.
Argive wrote: You guys are not really answering the question that is being asked.
"diversity good" is not an answer on how you achieve and measure it within a product range.. Which is what's being asked. How do you achieve it in order to make everyone happy.
As someone imagine your entire range of models don't include a single person that represents you. There are no different colors, just grey. There is no one you can identify with even though said faction is supposedly having both men and women, but there are no men and there are no women. There are only children, under the age of 4, and its marketed towards you, and 30 year old, for a faction that is supposed to be in their 30s. Its a juxtaposition that does not make sense within universe or out of universe.
Stormcasts are everyone, they can be anyone, thats what is so inspiring about the STormcasts, anyone can be one, all they have to be is a hero. And that can be anyone, as loosely defined as the writers deem it to be. You achieve it by representing someone, by showing who they are, an idealized person. When GW makes a faction they are make eblematic people that we want to be. We want to be lost in the power fantasy of playing these factions, can we... The audience identify with some aspect of the faction. So if no factions you like doesn't represent you at all, or your values then you have no attraction. Its both for marketing and also a connection between player and product.
Players get value out of identity, and the product gets value from support of the player
insaniak wrote: You're not going to find a magic number at which everyone will be satisfied, because everyone has different ideas of what is required in order to feel represented.
But, ultimately, I don't think that's what the vast majority of people who feel unrepresented are asking for. They just want to feel included in a way that isn't a token effort.
How can it ever be anything more than a token effort unless you have a goal by which to measure?
You can't measure it, its like trying to measure how much happiness you generate. There is no magic number by which it can be quantified. and that is not what people are asking for, they are asking "can you please represent me?" Which is not that hard especially from one of larger hobbying companies in the world. This hobby especially has a ton of gate keeping issues and this is one of them.
insaniak wrote: You're not going to find a magic number at which everyone will be satisfied, because everyone has different ideas of what is required in order to feel represented.
Grimskul wrote: I dunno, personally I feel representation requires context. For example, if its a historical wargame with a set time period, I would assume historical accuracy takes precedence over racial representation, so like there would be no Asian soldiers during the War of the Roses. Frankly, representation matters less to me than a well-crafted setting and product, since most of the time people who are overly concerned about representation focus on it almost exclusively to the detriment of everything else. I know growing up as a kid that I was happy with heroes like Batman, Spider-Man and Static Shock even though I'm neither white or black.
We aren't talking about that, please do not change the subject, this is an AOS discussion, and people are discussing AOS.
JWBS wrote: I'd say roughly equal numbers of men, women, gay, straight, black, and white representation in all things wherever possible. That covers the important demographics and also makes a lot of sense in most ways, and where it doesn't it's still desirable.
Wow. This is one of the most reductive takes on gender, sexuality, and race I’ve seen in a long time. What about Hispanics? Asians? They aren’t “important” to you?
JWBS wrote: I'd say roughly equal numbers of men, women, gay, straight, black, and white representation in all things wherever possible. That covers the important demographics and also makes a lot of sense in most ways, and where it doesn't it's still desirable.
Wow. This is one of the most reductive takes on gender, sexuality, and race I’ve seen in a long time. What about Hispanics? Asians? They aren’t “important” to you?
Sure, Asians and Hispanics too. Why not?
Honestly that'd be cool, Lets throw some Native American, Maori, and Pacific Islanders too, lets get Star Trekky in here. Stormcasts can literally be anyone, Even chaos warriors can be redeemed. Hell they are even called the Redeemed, so I am excited to see the next chapter for the Stormcasts, what the chamber is, what they do etc.
JWBS wrote: I'd say roughly equal numbers of men, women, gay, straight, black, and white representation in all things wherever possible. That covers the important demographics and also makes a lot of sense in most ways, and where it doesn't it's still desirable.
Wow. This is one of the most reductive takes on gender, sexuality, and race I’ve seen in a long time. What about Hispanics? Asians? They aren’t “important” to you?
Sure, Asians and Hispanics too. Why not?
Honestly that'd be cool, Lets throw some Native American, Maori, and Pacific Islanders too, lets get Star Trekky in here. Stormcasts can literally be anyone, Even chaos warriors can be redeemed. Hell they are even called the Redeemed, so I am excited to see the next chapter for the Stormcasts, what the chamber is, what they do etc.
That would be pretty awesome to see. It would be pretty cool for just about anyone to take a look at Warhammer and find at least a few miniatures that they feel represent who they are. At the end of the day, the hobby is pretty awesome, and everyone should be able to feel included and represented in it.
Sick of seeing sexless adult men get angry at the prospect of an equal ratio of tiny plastic women in a few box sets of little plastic toys for a game they *maybe* play?
Try the ignore button today!
The ignore button significantly reduces unwanted noise, vitriol, and dog whistling, by getting straight to the root of the cause, blocking out the grown-ass adults who have come to believe that their hobby is threatened by tiny toys having an entire box more gender equality before, and then being outraged when people say that maybe it's silly to be upset about that.
The ignore button. For all your internet pissbaby needs.
(side effects may include reduced blood pressure, violent diarrhea, heart attacks and death, being surrounded by white knights, an ability to actually enjoy threads in News and Rumors, fully painted armies in weeks and a sudden growth in penis size)
Amen. And don't bother clicking the "show" button once you ignore them. It's never worth it. Ever.
Gimgamgoo wrote: I don't play AoS, but the regulars that post on dakka seem to rate AoS these days. Does it really need a version 3? Are there lots of faults to be fixed?
Gw doesn't release editions because it's Needed. They release because time's up and it sells.
Due to leadtimes aos2 was bareiy out when work on aos3 started...
chaos0xomega wrote: What else do you call someone who discriminates against someone or the inclusion of someone on the basis of sex or gender, specifically against women? Thats literally the definition of sexism and misogyny.
Your basing your argument on the idea that the discrimination is based on sex, but since much of this toy soldier hobby is artistic and since (for the most part) men and women look different, the basis can just as equally be aesthetics rather than sex.
Maybe you want your soldiers to all look big and muscly because that's generally what makes a better fighter, and that naturally favours the male form.
It's always felt more natural that Eldar/Elves were a mixed gender force, because they're much more androgynous to begin with and the males are more stereotypically feminine, so having men and women fighting alongside each other looks right. But when there's significant sexual dimorphism, like, ya know, humans, there's an aesthetic difference and some people are going to prefer the big beefy aesthetic. I don't see how that's sexist any more than it is sizeist to point out that we don't let 70kg male boxers into the ring against 100kg male boxers. That dimorphism is what can make it feel forced when you try and mix male and female models.
I don't think it's sexism to point out that men and women aren't the same. Though these days, maybe some people don't agree with that appraisal.
But, it's fantasy, so if you want mixed male and female melee fighters, I don't see anything wrong with that. I also don't see anything wrong with wanting an only male army. Or an only female army for that matter.
These choices need not be sexist, they can be purely aesthetic.
Sick of seeing sexless adult men get angry at the prospect of an equal ratio of tiny plastic women in a few box sets of little plastic toys for a game they *maybe* play?
Try the ignore button today!
The ignore button significantly reduces unwanted noise, vitriol, and dog whistling, by getting straight to the root of the cause, blocking out the grown-ass adults who have come to believe that their hobby is threatened by tiny toys having an entire box more gender equality before, and then being outraged when people say that maybe it's silly to be upset about that.
The ignore button. For all your internet pissbaby needs.
(side effects may include reduced blood pressure, violent diarrhea, heart attacks and death, being surrounded by white knights, an ability to actually enjoy threads in News and Rumors, fully painted armies in weeks and a sudden growth in penis size)
Amen. And don't bother clicking the "show" button once you ignore them. It's never worth it. Ever.
The problem with the ignore button is you still end up seeing it when other people quote it. Or maybe you don't always sign in.
The answer is...never, you will never satisfy the current woke crowd, ever....no matter what you do.
Create a unit of "warriors".
You make 1/2 of them female, yay.
"Hey, you made the boobs too big, therefore objectifying women!"
Damnit, back to the design...reduce boobs.
"It looks like it's all men now, and what about ethnicity? Why aren't you representing xyz?"
Back to design, creates asian, black etc "looking" models within the unit....
"What the hell, talk about stereotyping, do you really think that's what we look like?"
Grrrr
Right......Bob, scrap all the heads....everyone's in a helmet!!
"What about gay, transgender...etc?"
Oh, feth of Kevin!!
And so on, and so on.
We've had female models in warhammer for decades, but only recently is it becoming such an issue. If you're going to spend your time worrying what a toy soldier looks like, life's going to be pretty damn miserable for you.
Thirdly, this particular issue tends to be discussed with moral grandstanding, self-righteousness and outright unwillingness to consider the other side of the argument. I acknowledge that many people are happy with more female miniatures and I'm not saying that I am right or they are wrong – it's a matter of taste. Being branded as someone who hates women will make me very angry, though, which is why I tend to respond in kind whenever I'm confronted with this accusation.
Here's weird idea. If you get angry at being accused X then don't act like X.
If someone looks like a dog and barks like a dog...
tneva82 wrote: Here's weird idea. If you get angry at being accused X then don't act like X.
So because other people are unwilling to read and consider an argument before immediately jumping to an accusation, people should stop making those arguments?
I think the better advice is ignore the accusations of small minded individuals.
I actually really like the new stormcast, whoever wrote the lore in here about anyone being able to become a hero.... That is actually brilliant lore and really draws me to the stormcast. I will have to read up on them a bit more I think.
Saying that I'm a slave to darkness player so I will happily murder them all horribly
One of the many side-paths in this thread inspired me to go see how many female dwarves GW has put out in its history. Turns out the number might be as low as 1: Helgar Longplaits. Not a great miniature by any means, between the nearly legless proportions that were the studio standard dwarf back in the day, the comical helmet and her only other visible armor being a goofy metal bra. Her illustration is even worse.
JWBS wrote: One of the main problems when shifting scale is that new techniques must often be learned, this applies to moving up as well as down, which is one of the various reasons cited for the failure of =][= (544mm).
Your inadvertent typo brought a smile to my face, as it made me imagine trying to put together a half-a-meter tall pewter space marine.
I was a bit annoyed by the potential thing that the new Stormcast kit would force to build female miniatures/increase the price exponentially as one will be left with a crap ton of useless plastic should it be full double kit. But then I thought to myself that I will never even pick that box or, god forbid, play AoS, so just stopped caring there And, as I've said 67 pages go, it was truly naive to expect anything from HH. "Hope is the first step..."
Today was great! I wasn't able to watch live, but wow. Compared with all the amazing models that were shown off for AoS on Monday, today was equally as good.
The new chamber of Stormcast Eternals are going to be an auto-buy for me. Looks to me like these Fimir are coming in some way to the game, that's nice. Another destruction faction is always positive!
The Annihilators look I N C R E D I B L E. Those shields and hammers are great, defiantly loving the Vindicators. But the star for me was Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear! This is what I'd like to continue to see, everything about her from the pose, basing and weapon options just scream Celestial Justice to me. The Paintjob was amazing, I love that take on the gold of Stormcast, defiantly an improvement.
I'm excited for 3.0 and I was really happy to hear about the changes to command points, detachments and the addition of better rules for campaigns.
In my eyes, the winner of this event was definitely AoS followed by the specialist games. Hell, the new Stormcast + the new faction alone have signaled 40Ks deathknell for me. Probably will bite the bullet on selling my Chaos Marines and moving totally over to AoS.
Between the Vampires, Kragnos and the new Stormcast + New Faction, well, because I will have no pity, no mercy, and no remorse upon my poor wallet.
The answer is...never, you will never satisfy the current woke crowd, ever....no matter what you do.
Create a unit of "warriors".
You make 1/2 of them female, yay.
"Hey, you made the boobs too big, therefore objectifying women!"
Damnit, back to the design...reduce boobs.
"It looks like it's all men now, and what about ethnicity? Why aren't you representing xyz?"
Back to design, creates asian, black etc "looking" models within the unit....
"What the hell, talk about stereotyping, do you really think that's what we look like?"
G
And so on, and so on.
Except they just did design a couple of female and black stormcast and no one has said anything to this effect?
Agamemnon2 wrote: One of the many side-paths in this thread inspired me to go see how many female dwarves GW has put out in its history. Turns out the number might be as low as 1: Helgar Longplaits. Not a great miniature by any means, between the nearly legless proportions that were the studio standard dwarf back in the day, the comical helmet and her only other visible armor being a goofy metal bra. Her illustration is even worse.
The "metal bra" is just a pretty accurate depiction of the goofy stuff sometimes worn during Wagnerian operas by either the valkyries or typically Brünnhilde, from "the opera ain't over until the fat lady sings" fame, and at times specifically used for comedic effect:
Spoiler:
Not saying it isn't a bit too comical (not to mention conical), but it kind of makes sense in the "opera Viking" Dwarf aesthetic - perfectly matches with the helmet and hair in fact.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Forge World has been pretty quiet as of late, hasnt it?
Rumor is that forgeworld had to drop everything it was doing because of the pandemic. And ever since they all come from the same production house it would be difficult to produce anything but main GW line, so forgeworld is basically defect as it is trying to produce for GW and so it has to remove items from its listings because they quite literally can't produce them.
Oh my gosh is this really going to devolve into a talk on representation for plastic army guys ?
How wide spread are all differences of people throughout the whole world ? Why does that need to be a thing, in a game ? So should I not play and or complain about necrons for being genderless automation ? Where my representation GW ? It's a game, why should anyone care aside from visual tastes what color anyone is or gender or sexual orientation or any of that, it's a game, nothing more. There isn't equal representation IRL for anyone because there isn't an equal number of different people all over. Demanding that for a game is pure madness and really breaks people down to be nothing more than what they look like, where they are from or who they sleep with and what they call themselves and I'm sorry but people are more than those things, they always have been and that can't be represented in a game, with plastic people.
That said I don't care if they put in female stormcast or female guard or even female space marines, I'd run female space marines, I like women even if they drive me nuts sometimes or all the time. Just do it because it makes sense and don't do it to push an agenda. Don't drag other people down to push others up, lets just all go up together right ?
That said, has anyone heard if these IG upgrade spures will be sold individually ? Because I would love that. Thanks for your time.
It's almost sad.
Primaris Stormcast. Day ruined, thanks Obama.
:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():format(webp)/GettyImages-EA2417-003-59020c4d5f9b5810dc568330.jpg)
