Arlen wrote:

What do you mean? Because the rules published by Forgeworld are clearly intended to be used in combination with the Skitarii Codex, which is a 40k army.

Going back to the question, Peltast are not broken. Just tremendously good at what they do, shooting at infantry of any kind.
The best way to run them friendly is just staying with a squad of 10 with no extra's and no IC with a 2+ re-rollable armour save in the unit to tank enemy fire.
They die almost as quickly as normal Skitarii so pretty much all tactics that would kill your Vanguards and Rangers would work on them.

I don't understand what you mean, if you don't give them an IC where will the 2+ save come from ?

Also, I think it may be better (not for your wallet) to have at least 15 so that you don't lose the benefit of reducing incoming shots by -1. As soon as you have 9 guys left it's gone, so that's a nice bonus I think.

I'm curious about these new rules, so there's a new Imperial Armour book coming out and their rules will be in there ? How do we know that ?

 Aaranis wrote:


I don't understand what you mean, if you don't give them an IC where will the 2+ save come from ?

I reacted on Verviedi question on how to run the Peltast in a friendly game. Not placing a Dominus with a 2+ re-rollable save in the unit, would be a friendly thing to do.

A cheap way (in terms of cash) to increase your number of Peltast with 5 is to add 5 normal Vanguards to represent the unit champion, 3x special weapons and one with the omnispex.
Play around a bit with the bits and their colour scheme and voila, you got 5 additional Peltast. The only problem is that Peltast do not really need the special weapons.

There is a new Imperial Armour book (Fires of Cyraxus) planned with a heavy Admech focus, so it is safe to assume that the Peltast and Hoplites will be in there.

 Arlen wrote:

I reacted on Verviedi question on how to run the Peltast in a friendly game. Not placing a Dominus with a 2+ re-rollable save in the unit, would be a friendly thing to do.

A cheap way (in terms of cash) to increase your number of Peltast with 5 is to add 5 normal Vanguards to represent the unit champion, 3x special weapons and one with the omnispex.
Play around a bit with the bits and their colour scheme and voila, you got 5 additional Peltast. The only problem is that Peltast do not really need the special weapons.

There is a new Imperial Armour book (Fires of Cyraxus) planned with a heavy Admech focus, so it is safe to assume that the Peltast and Hoplites will be in there.

Oh alright I mixed up things, sorry

What the Peltasts lack is anti-vehicle capabilities, adding Arc Rifles would make them able to deal with anything barring really big MCs. However I see nowhere in their datasheets that they can equip special weapons, only that the Alpha may take the usual Alpha gear, and an omnispex or enhanced data-tether. Which doesn't make sense if we compare with the usual Skitarii units, where it's a regular trooper equipped with the omnispex or data-tether.

Maybe they'll correct those in their new rules then, hope they make the alpha 2W like the others too, so that it may be a more viable option to choose him as your Warlord.

Ohw, yeah. I was mistaken, they do not have access to Skitarii special weapons. Hope they add that to them with the new rules .

 Arlen wrote:
Ohw, yeah. I was mistaken, they do not have access to Skitarii special weapons. Hope they add that to them with the new rules .

Why would they?

The point of the Peltasts and Secutarii is that they're specialized squads, not "all rounders".

 Arlen wrote:
Ohw, yeah. I was mistaken, they do not have access to Skitarii special weapons. Hope they add that to them with the new rules .

What would you possibly need from the Special Weapons list? Rangers and Vanguard carry Arc Rifles better and the Plasma Caliver is super expensive on them already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bare bones, they're already fantastic and inexpensive.

That's true indeed, if they could do everything you'd lost the flavour of having your "specialist squads" and who to protect at all costs etc. I personally intend on running one of my two squads of Vanguards with max Haywire, the other with just a Plasma Caliver to deal with some 2+ save, the Radium can do the rest by the sheer volume of shots. I always love when my opponent sees all the 6's to Wound I rolled, and then I tell him "okay, double that, that's your saves". Wiped a full squad of Wraithguard with one salvo from 9 Vanguards. The same who killed a Wraithlord once in Overwatch.

I'll look for my Peltasts to clear the enemy out of cover, to decimate blobs and to deal with Marines with the AP3 from 30".

Holy cow Grav Kataphrons are perfect for clearing the skies ! On a game against a Necron army today at 1000 pts I unleashed a full salvo of 18 shots at the Night Scythe, 3 hits, one 6, so it loses 1 HP and gets immobilized. He rolled a one and the Night Scythe crashed. WIN !

Well not actually win because I did that after he shot off my Rangers who were contesting an objective all by themselves, but still, had I done that earlier...

What is the viability of the cohort cybernetica? Is it decent in a competitive setting?

 Aaranis wrote:
Holy cow Grav Kataphrons are perfect for clearing the skies ! On a game against a Necron army today at 1000 pts I unleashed a full salvo of 18 shots at the Night Scythe, 3 hits, one 6, so it loses 1 HP and gets immobilized. He rolled a one and the Night Scythe crashed. WIN !

Well not actually win because I did that after he shot off my Rangers who were contesting an objective all by themselves, but still, had I done that earlier...

It's hit or miss with grav servitors and fliers, in my experience. After 3 rounds of shooting at helldrakes I only managed one six, which only forced him to fly straight off the board. The Icarus array is far better because it lets you keep your grav focused on the things that need to be grav'd to death. Only issue is I can't see myself taking the Icarus array because once the fliers are gone it's largely useless.

It's important to note that Peltasts get a nerf in Inferno, with their guns dropped to S2, and needing to pay for Hammershot. If these rules get into Fires Of Cyraxus, they will be official, but right now the experimental rules are the only fully "legal" ones for 40k.

Drahken_40k wrote:What is the viability of the cohort cybernetica? Is it decent in a competitive setting?

Never tried it yet but I certainly intend on using it, it costs a load of points but with the right loadout you'll resist to most of what's fired at you, and it ensure your other guys can do what they want without getting shot to death.

Vitali Advenil wrote:It's hit or miss with grav servitors and fliers, in my experience. After 3 rounds of shooting at helldrakes I only managed one six, which only forced him to fly straight off the board. The Icarus array is far better because it lets you keep your grav focused on the things that need to be grav'd to death. Only issue is I can't see myself taking the Icarus array because once the fliers are gone it's largely useless.

Oh yes of course the Icarus Array is better, but in this particular game it served well ! I planned on using one of those in my future list, along with a unit of two Laser Neutron Dunecrawlers, just to be sure I have enough firepower

Verviedi wrote:It's important to note that Peltasts get a nerf in Inferno, with their guns dropped to S2, and needing to pay for Hammershot. If these rules get into Fires Of Cyraxus, they will be official, but right now the experimental rules are the only fully "legal" ones for 40k.

What is Inferno ? I'd like to see if the rules are being updated somewhere.

The new Horus Heresy book. Secutarii get updated in it.

Also. I'll be updating OP sometime next week.

Drahken_40k wrote:
What is the viability of the cohort cybernetica? Is it decent in a competitive setting?

Also wondering this. It has quite a bit going for it:

Durability - Barebones, that's, what? FOUR Toughness 7 MCs with 3+//5++(against shooting)//FNP. They're guarded by multiwound TEQs with FNP. Relics like the Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land gives them an additional IWND.


Offense - They get their standard MC attacks at AP2, which is nice. I see so many players having built their Cohorts for CC, which I don't believe is very competitive. The other option is using the TL Hvy Phosphor Blasters which pump out enough MEQ-murder to wipe out Tac squads. The biggest draw has got to be that each individual Robot can target a different unit. When you're facing down a board with hordes, bikes, or parkinglots, you can count on the robots to reach out and torch them.

Mobility - LOL

For units that can almost never get ObjSec, it's tough to argue that they're competitive, but I have to believe they can lay out enough Dakka to be worth their cost.

Hi guys, so I found the PDF in which the future Secutarii of the book Horus Heresy: Inferno are described, with the allegedly future rules for the Secutarii. I joined the PDF here, I hope that works. Let us keep in mind those are the rules for 30k, so we don't know if the 40k Secutarii will have the same rules and options (let's hope they'll be included freely in the form of datasheets). Some of the notable changes from the current FW rules:

Peltasts:
- The Alpha now have two Wounds like all the other Alphas, yeah !
- The Flechette Burster has been effectively nerfed to S2, I feel like this is a legitimate change, it reminds me of the Flechette Pistols of the Infiltrators in its rules.
- We must now pay 3 points/model to get the Kinetic Hammershot, if we pay it for one model we must buy it for the whole unit, upping your bare 10 man squad from 120 to 150 points.
- Any model in the squad can switch his Galvanic Caster for a Radium Carbine for free.
- Any model in the squad can buy an Arc Rifle for 30 pts.
- The Alpha can take any of the following as ADDITIONAL weapons options: Radium Pistol 5 pts, Arc Pistol 20 pts, Volkite Serpenta 5 pts.
- The Alpha can switch his Galvanic Caster for an Arc Maul or a Power weapon.
- The Alpha can buy any of the following: Refractor Field, Omnispex, Shattersphere Grenades (which are Radium grenades with S4 AP5, Pinning, Blast and 8") or an Augury Scanner.

Hoplites:
- The Alpha may have the same options as the Peltast Alpha, except he can't take the refractor field, as he already have a 5++.
No other changes for them.

What is really interesting is this new character, the Secutarii Axiarch. If he's available in the future for the 40k Skitarii we'll have a way better alternative for the Warlord, we'd have a Warlord with WS4, BS5, S4, T4, 3 Wounds (!), I4, 3 Attacks, Ld9 and a 3+ save. He's also outfitted with the classic Kyropatris Field Generator, and his Titanshard armour gives him IWND, really nice as long as you're not shot with S8 (except if you roll the Eternal Warrior trait for him) as it assures you have a serious Warlord for your Skitarii Maniple if you want to run them solo. He comes equipped with a Refractor Field, an Arc Maul and a Radium Pistol. he may exchange the pistol alone for and Arc Pistol, a Volkite Serpenta, a Photon Gauntlet or an Archeotech Pistol. The Arc maul may be switched for a Power weapon, a Corposant Stave or a Power Fist. Or he exchanges both for the Hoplite weapon and shield. For 5 pts he may Master-Craft a single of his weapons. May buy any of the options of the Alphas I described above.

If we look at his special rules he gets Stubborn, standard Skitarii FNP of 6+ and Precision Shots. However the most interesting is the rule Binaric Stratagems, if there's at least one Axiarch in the same Detachment as the Secutarii, all of them gains one of the following bonuses, decided before the battle and lasting all the game:

- Pain Suppression Override: boosts FNP to 5+ - Helps them gain durability, very welcome on the Secutarii.
- Explorator Synaesthesis: gives Move Through Cover - Can be nice but I wouldn't take this one personally.
- Deconstructive Confluence: results on the Vehicle Damage table inflicted by models with this ability are at +1 - Now you can make vehicles explode with your Arc weaponry !
- Extinction Interlock: the unit gains Preferred Enemy (Infantry) - Sweet Omnissiah this could be really dangerous. Just imagine the deadly shooting phase you could make with that.

Now we have to remember most of these rules are made for 30k, especially some of the weapons options that we don't see here in 40k. But I do hope they'll still keep the Secutarii available in 40k, and most of all gives us access to the Axiarch. I would finally be able to field a dedicated Skitarii Maniple if they change it to include an optional HQ.

Thoughts on that, guys ?

So what you're saying is 40k Vanguard can be taken as 30 Peltasts that have switched out their guns for radium carbines?

Huzzah, less 30k stuff i have to buy

I think that's correct, though these rules are not out yet so you'll have to wait

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So what you're saying is 40k Vanguard can be taken as 30 Peltasts that have switched out their guns for radium carbines?

Huzzah, less 30k stuff i have to buy

essentially yes, and can be taken into squads of 20 with buffs to survivability.

the arc rifle thing makes me super sad though. it is literally my favorite weapon and they nerfed it to high hell (it isn't worth 30 points for a 12" rapid fire haywire gun. hell, 15 wouldn't be worth it for that kind of crap.) but I complained about it enough. I cannot wait to try these guys out next 30k game, and i'm thinking of doing a taghmata with skitarii and robots mixed in for the hell of it.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So what you're saying is 40k Vanguard can be taken as 30 Peltasts that have switched out their guns for radium carbines?

Huzzah, less 30k stuff i have to buy

essentially yes, and can be taken into squads of 20 with buffs to survivability.

the arc rifle thing makes me super sad though. it is literally my favorite weapon and they nerfed it to high hell (it isn't worth 30 points for a 12" rapid fire haywire gun. hell, 15 wouldn't be worth it for that kind of crap.) but I complained about it enough. I cannot wait to try these guys out next 30k game, and i'm thinking of doing a taghmata with skitarii and robots mixed in for the hell of it.

You do need to remember though that 30k is not 40k. The Arc Rifle is worth a lot more in 30k.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So what you're saying is 40k Vanguard can be taken as 30 Peltasts that have switched out their guns for radium carbines?

Huzzah, less 30k stuff i have to buy

essentially yes, and can be taken into squads of 20 with buffs to survivability.

the arc rifle thing makes me super sad though. it is literally my favorite weapon and they nerfed it to high hell (it isn't worth 30 points for a 12" rapid fire haywire gun. hell, 15 wouldn't be worth it for that kind of crap.) but I complained about it enough. I cannot wait to try these guys out next 30k game, and i'm thinking of doing a taghmata with skitarii and robots mixed in for the hell of it.

You do need to remember though that 30k is not 40k. The Arc Rifle is worth a lot more in 30k.

true, that's why they have the hoplites sitting at 130pts for 10 guys that all have haywire at BS 5! or the vulturax at 175pts with a 30" range haywire gun. if you want 3 haywire rifles on peltasts then they will be 210 points for just that, without any way to get close. why do that when you could get a hoplite squad for 265pts in it's own landraider esque transport?

really i'm only salty because I have well over 12 arc rifle models that are not the best when used in 30k and no hoplites.

Edit: I updated my battlescribe and it says arc rifles are ten points each?

A small question.
I got three Imperial Knights that I want to use in my Admech army. What is the best way to include them?
It is for a big point game of 2000+ points.

-Grand Convocation, for that sweet It Will Not Die.
-Baronial Court, for a Baron, overwatch and the +1 Ion Shield bonus when within 6" of each other.
-Another Imperial Knight formation that might be better?

I will most likely take the Grand Convocation anyway for free IWND on my Onagar Dunecrawlers and Kastelan Robots.
I do not have enough fast attack and elite units to get the max. detachment bonus so I do not count on that.

Well, believe it or not you can take a war convocation with three knights and have all the upgrades for free as well as have canticles on all of the knights, as there is an oathsworn detachment if I remember correctly. if you wanna go nuts, that is a good way to do it. Throw Cawl in for a bigger buff to IWND and you would be golden for the amount of destruction they could cause, along with fielding a decent admech army. this, however, is for a huge point game so it's not to be used lightly.

but, if that is too overboard then maybe just try an adamantine lance formation? it's three paladins or errants, and when within 3" of each other they get to re-roll their ion shields. They will only have blasts but you still get to bring relics and upgrade them with carapace weapons I think.

Well, it is just a friendly matchup where we want to take the big guns out. So going War Convocation is not really fun.
Formations like that are best reserved for tournaments.

The Adamantite Lance Formation sounds very good, but the 3" is going to be quite the problem. Since the board will be quite stacked with ruins and other obstacles. Nonetheless, it might be a good option to take.
The Barional Court kinda suffers the same problem in this scenario, but since the needed range is larger (6" and 12") it would have less problems with it.
Since we decided that Apocalypse formation are allowed, is the Household Spearhead a good formation?

2000 points is most likely too low to run a 3 knight convocation

Well, folks, time for updated unit summaries. I did some work by myself, but I think my experience is lacking. I'd really appreciate some help from more experienced users.

 Verviedi wrote:
Well, folks, time for updated unit summaries. I did some work by myself, but I think my experience is lacking. I'd really appreciate some help from more experienced users.

I can do my own summary if you'd like, even given my limited experience I learn a lot from my defeats

Skitarii Rangers:

Skitarii Vanguards:

Sicarian Infiltrators:

Sicarian Ruststalkers I will not comment, I have never ever played them.

Ironstrider Ballistarii, never played them either, but I can't see their uses unless taken as part of the Ironstrider Cavaliers formation. They don't have a 5+ cover save, have a lower WS than the Dragoons, and really you have better solutions than using Autocannons for 55 pts in your army. I don't intend on playing them honestly.

Sydonian Dragoon:

Onager Dunecrawler:

Techpriest Dominus:

Kataphron Destroyers:

Never tried the Breachers by myself, but they seem special to use. They're better against vehicles but if you choose them instead of Grav-Destroyers you'll lose your AP2 weaponry and volume of fire. The Torsion Cannon also don't seem that good, or only in limited numbers for a specific task. It's only one shot at BS3 after all.

I don't know the Electropriests that much neither, but I do know if you want to run them it's in very specific builds that require LOTS of them.

Kastelan Maniples:

Oh boy, I also got some personal summaries I would like to share
Well here goes nothing.

Skitarii Vanguard

Skitarii Rangers

Sicarian Ruststalkers

Sicarian Infiltrators

Sydonian Dragoons

melee skitarii
While Skitarii function great as an ranged army, having some Ruststalkers, Infiltrators and/or several Dragoons for some melee punch really boosts the effectiveness of your army.
Since all three of our melee units are fast and really, really good in close combat, they will almost certainly be a focus point for any opponent. Combining charges with Dragoons allows your
Ruststalkers and/or Infiltrators to charge without having to worry about overwatch, while most basic units will not even be able to hurt the Dragoons with their basic guns.
Ironstrider Ballistrarii

Onagar Dunecrawlers

Techpriest Dominus

Kataphron Breachers

Kataphron Destroyers

Both priests units
Never played these. If I want to have some melee units in my army, I almost always pick some from my Skitarii.

Kastelan Robot Maniple


I hope you get some uses out of these summaries.

Excellent, thank you. I'll compile them into a Word document together, and release the resulting frankenstein-monster into the OP!

I actually disagree about the arc rifles on the vanguard. Arc rifles are 24'' rapid fire, meaning you're having to get closer. Rangers are better for hanging out back, as you said, because of their longer range. Vanguard are generally going to be closer, and have an easier time using them.

Also, if I take a plasma caviler in the vanguard squad, I'll always take an omnispex. Shoving that cover save from a 4+ to a 5+ against my plasma is always nice, especially if I can get it to a 6+ with some lumagen support.

Edited my post to include the Kastelan Robots as well.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
I actually disagree about the arc rifles on the vanguard. Arc rifles are 24'' rapid fire, meaning you're having to get closer. Rangers are better for hanging out back, as you said, because of their longer range. Vanguard are generally going to be closer, and have an easier time using them.

Also, if I take a plasma caviler in the vanguard squad, I'll always take an omnispex. Shoving that cover save from a 4+ to a 5+ against my plasma is always nice, especially if I can get it to a 6+ with some lumagen support.

I agree with you, I think Arc Rifles are great with both units. You'll always be closer with Vanguards but I just think they're safer in the hidden Ranger squads, because my Vanguards die a lot. Also, having even more Radium shots is seducing, and forces you to shoot at non-vehicles. Having 7 or 8 guys not firing at something because the Arc Rifles fired at a vehicle is still 21 or 24 shots "lost" in my opinion. But both options are viable I believe.

 Aaranis wrote:
Edited my post to include the Kastelan Robots as well.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
I actually disagree about the arc rifles on the vanguard. Arc rifles are 24'' rapid fire, meaning you're having to get closer. Rangers are better for hanging out back, as you said, because of their longer range. Vanguard are generally going to be closer, and have an easier time using them.

Also, if I take a plasma caviler in the vanguard squad, I'll always take an omnispex. Shoving that cover save from a 4+ to a 5+ against my plasma is always nice, especially if I can get it to a 6+ with some lumagen support.

I agree with you, I think Arc Rifles are great with both units. You'll always be closer with Vanguards but I just think they're safer in the hidden Ranger squads, because my Vanguards die a lot. Also, having even more Radium shots is seducing, and forces you to shoot at non-vehicles. Having 7 or 8 guys not firing at something because the Arc Rifles fired at a vehicle is still 21 or 24 shots "lost" in my opinion. But both options are viable I believe.

Even against infantry the arc rifle is pretty much a guaranteed 5 wounds or so on MEQ, and does provide to the weight of fire. It also makes them able to take on any threat, even if you "Waste" 21 rad shots. often times I find the trade off worth it, but it is highly situational.

I would think that if you were going to take anti-armor specialist weapons, it would be better to field the units in groups of 5 so you're getting more special-fire per wasted normal fire.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

Even against infantry the arc rifle is pretty much a guaranteed 5 wounds or so on MEQ, and does provide to the weight of fire. It also makes them able to take on any threat, even if you "Waste" 21 rad shots. often times I find the trade off worth it, but it is highly situational.

Yeah you're right, it's still AP5 like the Radium Carbines. Beyond 12" they're pretty equal to the Carbines I feel, and better under 13" due to the rapid fire.

I'm just reassuring myself for not having mounted any Arc Rifles in my Vanguards yet

Also, I'm thinking about building a 10 man squad with the Alpha equipped with Arc Pistol + Arc Maul, and two or three Arc Rifles. Is that a nice idea ? I'd run them along a 5 man Arquebii squad, a 5 man bare bones Ranger squad, and a 10 man Vanguard squad with one Plasma Caliver. They'd assure me the anti-armour duty pretty well but I'm not sure about the Maul, I don't think I'll charge a vehicle that often. Still mounted him like that because rule of cool Would be a good idea ?

I don't even bother putting melee weapons on my sktiarii troops. They're pretty squishy, and any weapon you put on them isn't going to help them much. Maybe it'll get a kill or two, but I just plan on keeping these guys out of combat as much as possible.

Also, I'm still on the fence about the transarq. It has the same issue of "wasting" shots as we discussed by putting arc rifles on vanguard. However, this is so much more expensive and much less reliable. The appeal of a armorbane sniper rifle is nice, but honestly you'll be hard pressed to glance anything other than transports. Plus, with their range, they have much more target options than vanguard usually will. I have a couple of them but I still need to do more field testing to find out.

The Transarq really only makes sense on Rangers.

TransArq costs 25 points and removes a free Galvanic Rifle.

Compare:

1 Ranger with a TransArq generates 1 Str 4 Ap3 Armorbane Sniper shot (4+ to kill a MEQ out of cover in best cast scenario)

3 Rangers with Galvanic rifles gets you 3-6 Str 4 shots, but on 3 wounds.

The 2 extra bodies beats the TransArq every time. Only in a WarConvocation could the stupid TransArq make sense, and then only because you want to hide the unit and take advantage of the 60" range. This is again a huge opportunity cost that sacrifices the rapid fire shots and the much better plasma caliver. When I mathhammer the TransArq even a little bit ... it comes up as total failure.

You'd be surprised, I run this double Arquebus squad with an Omnispex and the Scryerskull Perspicatus. I usually deploy them in an elevated position in a corner of my side of the table, so that I can have the sides of the vehicles. Well with the ability to reroll failed glances and reroll glances to have penetrating hits, I immobilised or finished off a lot of vehicles in a few games. When I play 1000 pts I run them in the Dominus Maniple along a Neutron Laser Dunecrawler, so that I can reroll failed hits should I have any.

Of course it requires a fair deal of synergy and the use of a 20 pts relic, but I always allowed me to destroy an enemy vehicle from my turn 1 by just using the squad and the Dunecrawler. I still have my double Arc Rifles squad somewhere in the field to finish it off if I need.

I've played a few games with just skitarii recently and even then I really struggle to find a use for arc rifles beyond one squad. They just don't compare in my opinion to the plasma calivers so I've been only running one squad of rangers in the backfield with them for drop pods/leviathans which are common where I play

Drahken_40k wrote:
I've played a few games with just skitarii recently and even then I really struggle to find a use for arc rifles beyond one squad. They just don't compare in my opinion to the plasma calivers so I've been only running one squad of rangers in the backfield with them for drop pods/leviathans which are common where I play

Thing is, one plasma Caliver is worth two Arc Rifles in cost, and it has a reduced range. I'd say its function is different, the Plasma is meant to deal with 2+ enemies, and I think they're best equipped with Vanguard as they are the same range. Arc Rifles are powerful, but are really meant to be dedicated to anti-armour. I think if you want to include one, make it two in a 5 man squad. At 12" you can fire 4 Haywire shots and potentially destroy any vehicle pretty easily.

As for the placement, well it's up to what army you're facing. I try to place them in ruins with Scout so they can fire at least one shot each at their first turn, but if you're expecting drop pods yeah they're your best bet to destroy them in once turn. Or the Dreadnought that comes out of it.

 Aaranis wrote:

Drahken_40k wrote:
I've played a few games with just skitarii recently and even then I really struggle to find a use for arc rifles beyond one squad. They just don't compare in my opinion to the plasma calivers so I've been only running one squad of rangers in the backfield with them for drop pods/leviathans which are common where I play

Thing is, one plasma Caliver is worth two Arc Rifles in cost, and it has a reduced range. I'd say its function is different, the Plasma is meant to deal with 2+ enemies, and I think they're best equipped with Vanguard as they are the same range. Arc Rifles are powerful, but are really meant to be dedicated to anti-armour. I think if you want to include one, make it two in a 5 man squad. At 12" you can fire 4 Haywire shots and potentially destroy any vehicle pretty easily.

As for the placement, well it's up to what army you're facing. I try to place them in ruins with Scout so they can fire at least one shot each at their first turn, but if you're expecting drop pods yeah they're your best bet to destroy them in once turn. Or the Dreadnought that comes out of it.

That might actually be a better idea. Have arc rifles in one squad, plasma in another. Until now I had 2 arc and 1 plasma in a vanguard squad (mostly because I only have 1 vanguard squad. I've only been playing admech for about 3 months.) It makes them more specialized while still giving you both options. And definitely take the omnispex in the plasma squad. In the arc squad, you can probably leave it at home.

Writing summaries now. Dakka seems to be bugged, won't let me update OP without "Page did not send data" errors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, it won't let me edit posts or make new threads. .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whenever I go to edit a post or create a new thread, and click submit, I get the Google Chrome error screen with the following error:
This is unfortunate, because I like to edit my posts at least four times as soon as I post them.


"This page isn’t working

www.dakkadakka.com didn’t send any data.
ERR_EMPTY_RESPONSE"

 Verviedi wrote:
Writing summaries now. Dakka seems to be bugged, won't let me update OP without "Page did not send data" errors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, it won't let me edit posts or make new threads. .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whenever I go to edit a post or create a new thread, and click submit, I get the Google Chrome error screen with the following error:
This is unfortunate, because I like to edit my posts at least four times as soon as I post them.


"This page isn’t working

www.dakkadakka.com didn’t send any data.
ERR_EMPTY_RESPONSE"

sounds like you didnt please the machine spirit with the blessed oil and sacred bitcoin.

If anything I'd think it's as vital for the ark rifles for jinking vehicles

Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

 buddha wrote:
Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

Oh man do I have some cheese for you. Cawl and his unkillable glory fit in perfect with the skitarii Hoplites from FW. They're 13 points a pop, unit of 10-20, haywire everything, standard skitarii stats. Here's the kicker though, they have a piece of equipment called the Kryopatris Field Generator which states "So long as a unit contains at least 5 models with a Kryopatris Field Generator, all models in the unit may re-roll failed armor saves of 1." Also, if 10+, shooting attacks on the units are at -1 str. Cawl and his 2+ armor becomes Cawl and his 2+ re-rolling armor. He won't die. And in a unit of 10+ models with 5+ invulns, feel free to look out sir that AP2 all day if you want. That unit will be a walking haywire mob.

Unfortunately the FW Secutarri cant be taken in a War Convo

Though the tradeoff is that its still wounding him on a majority toughness 3, which is a waste of his T6

I'll put him with Kataphrons

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Unfortunately the FW Secutarri cant be taken in a War Convo

Though the tradeoff is that its still wounding him on a majority toughness 3, which is a waste of his T6

I'll put him with Kataphrons

But they can be taken in a Skitarii Maniple ! Any Techpriest Dominus will do the trick for the 2++ rerollable, it's just that Cawl gives more bonuses.

As previously said, placing him in a Cohort Cybernetica looks absolutely murderous and a nightmare to deal with. That will cost you a bunch of points though.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the same topic, what do you think of Kataphron Breachers as anti-armour units ? The 2 Haywire shots by head at 36" looks appealing, but then I remember it's at BS3 and can only get rerolls for one or two turns with the Canticles, whereas a Skitarii unit will have always minimum BS4. As for the Torsion Cannon, it looked not worth it at first due to range, but I can see it becoming deadly combined with a Scryerskull Perspicatus to reroll failed glances to get pens. 1D3 HP per penetrating hit is interesting, and let's not forget it's AP1 so it may explode your target with good luck. In a unit of three, I'd use 2-3 Heavy Arc Rifles and 0-1 Torsion Cannon, depending on their placement.

That would allow me to maybe drop the Arquebii squad and give less special weaponry to my Skitarii, while still leaving an Arc Rifle or two in a squad. Your thoughts on this ?

OP just got an update. And my Onager's close combat daemon prince kill count is now 2. Blood for the blood god.

Jackal444 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

Oh man do I have some cheese for you. Cawl and his unkillable glory fit in perfect with the skitarii Hoplites from FW. They're 13 points a pop, unit of 10-20, haywire everything, standard skitarii stats. Here's the kicker though, they have a piece of equipment called the Kryopatris Field Generator which states "So long as a unit contains at least 5 models with a Kryopatris Field Generator, all models in the unit may re-roll failed armor saves of 1." Also, if 10+, shooting attacks on the units are at -1 str. Cawl and his 2+ armor becomes Cawl and his 2+ re-rolling armor. He won't die. And in a unit of 10+ models with 5+ invulns, feel free to look out sir that AP2 all day if you want. That unit will be a walking haywire mob.

Surely Peltasts make more sense if you're going for brokenness. Peltasts have the same save reroll trick and -1 to strength benefits, but have very useful weapons, whilst Hoplites are perhaps the fourth or fifth best anti-vehicle option Mechanicus have access to, and are a mediocre at best combat horde otherwise.

 Verviedi wrote:
OP just got an update. And my Onager's close combat daemon prince kill count is now 2. Blood for the blood god.

I want the story

Very well. Here's a picture.


I got crushed in this game, by the way.

The Daemon Prince charged my Dunecrawler. Its first rounds of attacks whiffed, doing no damage. The Dunecrawler hit back, hitting on a six, wounding on a four, but the DP passed his invuln. The Infiltrators charged in, and got utterly wrecked by the Bloodcrushers and Daemon Prince attacking them.
The Dunecrawler attacked again.
It hit on a six.
It wounded on a five.
My opponent rolled a one on its invuln.

Instant kill.

This is the second time that specific Daemon Prince has charged the Dunecrawler and gotten instakilled. My Dunecrawler is a badass. Thank you, Cognis Manipulator.

Congrats little Dunecrawler ! Mine smashed an Harlequin character once (don't remember which one), I love to picture the graceful Eldar getting crushed by a radioactive brick with legs.

 buddha wrote:
Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

Honestly I have no plans on getting or using Cawl. In general I don't like using named characters, nor do I like using characters as hilariously strong as these. Though, if I had to make a tactical analysis for him...

Using him solely as a bullet sponge for servitors seems like a vast waste of points. For his cost alone you could just field another unit of servitors, and get twice the firepower. Sure, he has decent shooting, but he doesn't have 18 grav shots at 48 inch range. Plus, servitors have decent bulk. A T5 W2 model is pretty strong, and if you have Cawl on the board, they probably won't be focusing on your servitors. He wants to get close, so I'd put him with another unit that wants to get close. Surround him with vanguard, I say. He can tank what he needs to and LOS the rest. This makes sure the vanguard unit gets where it needs to be as well as Cawl. Plus, if you charge anything, you're subtracting one toughness while Cawl is fighting them.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

Honestly I have no plans on getting or using Cawl. In general I don't like using named characters, nor do I like using characters as hilariously strong as these. Though, if I had to make a tactical analysis for him...

Using him solely as a bullet sponge for servitors seems like a vast waste of points. For his cost alone you could just field another unit of servitors, and get twice the firepower. Sure, he has decent shooting, but he doesn't have 18 grav shots at 48 inch range. Plus, servitors have decent bulk. A T5 W2 model is pretty strong, and if you have Cawl on the board, they probably won't be focusing on your servitors. He wants to get close, so I'd put him with another unit that wants to get close. Surround him with vanguard, I say. He can tank what he needs to and LOS the rest. This makes sure the vanguard unit gets where it needs to be as well as Cawl. Plus, if you charge anything, you're subtracting one toughness while Cawl is fighting them.

48 inch ? Aren't they 30" ?

Yes.

In any way, I don't intend on buying him neither (don't really love the model) but strolling the battlefield by himself could be good too. He'll catch a lot of fire and he doesn't, he'll just get closer to what he wants.

 Aaranis wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

Honestly I have no plans on getting or using Cawl. In general I don't like using named characters, nor do I like using characters as hilariously strong as these. Though, if I had to make a tactical analysis for him...

Using him solely as a bullet sponge for servitors seems like a vast waste of points. For his cost alone you could just field another unit of servitors, and get twice the firepower. Sure, he has decent shooting, but he doesn't have 18 grav shots at 48 inch range. Plus, servitors have decent bulk. A T5 W2 model is pretty strong, and if you have Cawl on the board, they probably won't be focusing on your servitors. He wants to get close, so I'd put him with another unit that wants to get close. Surround him with vanguard, I say. He can tank what he needs to and LOS the rest. This makes sure the vanguard unit gets where it needs to be as well as Cawl. Plus, if you charge anything, you're subtracting one toughness while Cawl is fighting them.

48 inch ? Aren't they 30" ?

Ah, sorry, still new to the codex. Still think my point stands, though.

Haha no problem we can't know it by heart all the time I think I used a 36" range myself for a couple games, I'm not sure.

Holy Molly I have a newfound respect for my 5 Infiltrators now. I faced an Iron Hands list with a triple Vindicator squadron in it, and as I wondered where in Hell I could go with my Infiltrators so they could be useful (there was only like 8-9 non-vehicle models on the field on his side) I found myself close to the Vindicators. So I charged them, rolled... and destroyed two of them. With 5 Infiltrators. With Taser Goads.

As a makeshift anti-armour they look nice indeed with these S6 hits. On the charge they have 21 attacks that hit on 3+, with 6's adding two more hits each. As it's resolved against rear armour most of the time it will be 10 and you only have to roll a few 4+ to destroy one.

The more I play with the same list, the more I get good with what I have. Even managed a victory against a CC Eldar list the other day !

 buddha wrote:
Where are you mechanicus players putting Cawl in your lists? His strength is that he is among the best tanks in the game. I've just been using him as a bullet shield for Kataphrons and advancing upfield but I'm curious if players have a better unit choice?

Cawl is an absolute tank, He can tank full rounds of fire from whole army.

There are few good choices for Cawl

1) Protect Destroyers. He will let those destroyers shoot all day long. -1 Toughness is not too big of a deal

2) Cohort Cybernetica. This unit will not die. Also Robots with Memento-Mortispex is great. And he will be tanking at T7

3) Keep him by himself. I had a few games where there was few big objectives, so he can just camp them and draw a lot of fire. Your opponent won't be able to move him from an objective.

I also like bringing Knight or onagers to walk next to Cawl for buffs.

However, my play group start to consider Cawl to be unfun, so I won't be able to bring him as much as I like in the future :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:
Holy Molly I have a newfound respect for my 5 Infiltrators now. I faced an Iron Hands list with a triple Vindicator squadron in it, and as I wondered where in Hell I could go with my Infiltrators so they could be useful (there was only like 8-9 non-vehicle models on the field on his side) I found myself close to the Vindicators. So I charged them, rolled... and destroyed two of them. With 5 Infiltrators. With Taser Goads.

As a makeshift anti-armour they look nice indeed with these S6 hits. On the charge they have 21 attacks that hit on 3+, with 6's adding two more hits each. As it's resolved against rear armour most of the time it will be 10 and you only have to roll a few 4+ to destroy one.

The more I play with the same list, the more I get good with what I have. Even managed a victory against a CC Eldar list the other day !

Do you infiltrate or outflank your Infiltrators mostly? I never had success with them, although it might be because my main opponent is Tau so too many instant kill for them to do anything (Same thing happens with dragoons)

Zalek wrote:

Cawl is an absolute tank, He can tank full rounds of fire from whole army.

There are few good choices for Cawl

1) Protect Destroyers. He will let those destroyers shoot all day long. -1 Toughness is not too big of a deal

2) Cohort Cybernetica. This unit will not die. Also Robots with Memento-Mortispex is great. And he will be tanking at T7

3) Keep him by himself. I had a few games where there was few big objectives, so he can just camp them and draw a lot of fire. Your opponent won't be able to move him from an objective.

I also like bringing Knight or onagers to walk next to Cawl for buffs.

However, my play group start to consider Cawl to be unfun, so I won't be able to bring him as much as I like in the future :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:
Holy Molly I have a newfound respect for my 5 Infiltrators now. I faced an Iron Hands list with a triple Vindicator squadron in it, and as I wondered where in Hell I could go with my Infiltrators so they could be useful (there was only like 8-9 non-vehicle models on the field on his side) I found myself close to the Vindicators. So I charged them, rolled... and destroyed two of them. With 5 Infiltrators. With Taser Goads.

As a makeshift anti-armour they look nice indeed with these S6 hits. On the charge they have 21 attacks that hit on 3+, with 6's adding two more hits each. As it's resolved against rear armour most of the time it will be 10 and you only have to roll a few 4+ to destroy one.

The more I play with the same list, the more I get good with what I have. Even managed a victory against a CC Eldar list the other day !

Do you infiltrate or outflank your Infiltrators mostly? I never had success with them, although it might be because my main opponent is Tau so too many instant kill for them to do anything (Same thing happens with dragoons)

Careful with Cawl at T5 in the Destroyers unit, he's not Eternal Warrior and thus may be victim of Instant Death if a S10 AP1 Blast comes right in his face...

I always infiltrate them so as to make something menacing for the enemy to consider, and they can be closer to objectives or just out of sight more easily. I don't trust Outflank, you still can't charge at the turn you arrive and worse is that it's on Turn 2, and they may as well never arrive and not at the right side. Another option may be to deploy them normally with Scout and if you don't get the first turn, you may have something to charge at yours. Never played against a Tau player yet, but I can wait for as long as necessary, I'm in no rush

My use for Cawl: drop him in a unit of Vanguards for Scout and -T in CC, then drop an inquisitor with rad grenades in there with them. His 2d6 S4 attacks at I10 are pretty amazing when the enemy has -2T. I vaporized a fully powered screamerstar with that and Litany of the Electromaner (War Con for canticles on everyone).

 Aaranis wrote:

Zalek wrote:

Cawl is an absolute tank, He can tank full rounds of fire from whole army.

There are few good choices for Cawl

1) Protect Destroyers. He will let those destroyers shoot all day long. -1 Toughness is not too big of a deal

2) Cohort Cybernetica. This unit will not die. Also Robots with Memento-Mortispex is great. And he will be tanking at T7

3) Keep him by himself. I had a few games where there was few big objectives, so he can just camp them and draw a lot of fire. Your opponent won't be able to move him from an objective.

I also like bringing Knight or onagers to walk next to Cawl for buffs.

However, my play group start to consider Cawl to be unfun, so I won't be able to bring him as much as I like in the future :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:
Holy Molly I have a newfound respect for my 5 Infiltrators now. I faced an Iron Hands list with a triple Vindicator squadron in it, and as I wondered where in Hell I could go with my Infiltrators so they could be useful (there was only like 8-9 non-vehicle models on the field on his side) I found myself close to the Vindicators. So I charged them, rolled... and destroyed two of them. With 5 Infiltrators. With Taser Goads.

As a makeshift anti-armour they look nice indeed with these S6 hits. On the charge they have 21 attacks that hit on 3+, with 6's adding two more hits each. As it's resolved against rear armour most of the time it will be 10 and you only have to roll a few 4+ to destroy one.

The more I play with the same list, the more I get good with what I have. Even managed a victory against a CC Eldar list the other day !

Do you infiltrate or outflank your Infiltrators mostly? I never had success with them, although it might be because my main opponent is Tau so too many instant kill for them to do anything (Same thing happens with dragoons)

Careful with Cawl at T5 in the Destroyers unit, he's not Eternal Warrior and thus may be victim of Instant Death if a S10 AP1 Blast comes right in his face...

I always infiltrate them so as to make something menacing for the enemy to consider, and they can be closer to objectives or just out of sight more easily. I don't trust Outflank, you still can't charge at the turn you arrive and worse is that it's on Turn 2, and they may as well never arrive and not at the right side. Another option may be to deploy them normally with Scout and if you don't get the first turn, you may have something to charge at yours. Never played against a Tau player yet, but I can wait for as long as necessary, I'm in no rush

That is not how instant death works. Rolls to wound are on average toughness (5). Once a wound allocated and unsaved, then the instant death rule is queried against the toughness of the model on a model by model basis (6). If a wound is allocated to a kataphron and it is unsaved, then it is queried against the toughness (5) of the kataphron.

Wulfey wrote:

That is not how instant death works. Rolls to wound are on average toughness (5). Once a wound allocated and unsaved, then the instant death rule is queried against the toughness of the model on a model by model basis (6). If a wound is allocated to a kataphron and it is unsaved, then it is queried against the toughness (5) of the kataphron.

Really ? I've been doing that wrongly most of the time then, thanks for the clarification. But you still roll your To Wound rolls on the biggest average Toughness in the unit ? It's for the allocation of Wounds to save that you use the Toughness value of the model ?

You roll to wound vs the unit's majority toughness.

Once you allocate a successful wound to a model, then you assess S vs T for purposes of ID, (denying) FNP/RP, and any other rules that interfere with things like AP values and cover and such, and roll any possible save accordingly

 IHateNids wrote:
You roll to wound vs the unit's majority toughness.

Once you allocate a successful wound to a model, then you assess S vs T for purposes of ID, (denying) FNP/RP, and any other rules that interfere with things like AP values and cover and such, and roll any possible save accordingly

Okay, that's what I had in mind as well. I'll remember it for my next games !

On another subject, I'll be testing a full 10 squad of Vigilators Sisters of Silence, the ones with the AP2 Greatswords this thursday in a 1500 pts game. I'm placing my Techpriest Dominus with them, equipped with Anzion's Pseudogenetor, the Eradication Ray and a Stasis Field. That should make a decently resilient CC unit to deal with psykers and other CC units coming too close. I won't be facing any psykers sadly but I'll see how they perform nonetheless. Wasn't satisfied with the Culexus as he was too slow and pricey for his somewhat average resilience, so in the two games I played in which I tested him he didn't do much at all. Hoping the Sisters of Silence will be nice !

Anyone tried Sisters of Silence in their AdMech lists ? What is your way of dealing with Psykers ?

HI

What do you guys use for Psychic support for your Ad Mech armies.

I was planning to add some psychic to my army but torn between
1) Tiggy Conclave
2) White Scars Conclave
3) Psykana division
4) Any other options???

I use some Grey Knights or Greyfax for my anti psychic.
Grey Knights are great versus small units of psykers hiding in the backline, they can deepstrike and throw psyk-out grenades in the unit hiding the psykers.
If deep striking ain't your thing, then you could use interceptors for that 30" jump move towards the enemy psykers.
Add in some incinerators and you got a scary fast anti psyker unit that can also deal some heavy damage against the squad the psyker is hiding in.
Fastest way I got rid of Tigurius was two interceptors squads jumping next to Tiggy's suad and throwing in two psyk-out grenades Tigurius gets hit by them, rolls 1 on the perils table, fails the leadership test, bye bye Tiggy.
This was ofcourse quite some luck on my side, but in my opinion Grey Knights are a wonderful ally versus psykers as they add extra dices for your deny the witch rolls and are pretty good in taking out most psykers without much support from other units.

Zalek wrote:
HI

What do you guys use for Psychic support for your Ad Mech armies.

Sisters of Silence in Rhinos

Two 25 point astropaths. Gets me a whole phase back for 50 points.

I still think Librarius Conclave is good for support. It is a cheap way to get some better LD and roll on some good tables.

I'm starting to like the idea of cawl tanking for a unit of sisters of silence.

 buddha wrote:
I'm starting to like the idea of cawl tanking for a unit of sisters of silence.

How would they get anywhere though?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
I'm starting to like the idea of cawl tanking for a unit of sisters of silence.

How would they get anywhere though?

The AdMec way... Walking!

When it comes to competitive 40k is there a place for the Cohort Cybernetica?

They have:

Torrent Flamers

Twin Linked Cover Punishing Hvy Phosphor

MC Smash

FNP//IWND//T7//3+//5++

I feel like the unkillable robots would be great against hordes of Ynnari in particular. They will likely ignore even massed Poison and Scatbike shooting, no matter how many extra phases they get. Plus the weapons are tailor made to be anti-Aeldari

So, since the FAQ nerfed grenades, does that increase the viability of Transonic Blade Ruststalkers? The loss of grenades but added Strength of the attacks (Str 6 on the Charge is not bad), almost seems to even out the options. But Chord Claws are still pretty awesome. I wish the Blade version was better, since dual-wielding blades looks really cool.

buddha wrote:I'm starting to like the idea of cawl tanking for a unit of sisters of silence.

Hey I just had an idea, a Techpriest Dominus with the Raiment of the Technomartyr, in squad of Sisters of Silence with flamers. They would have Cognis and so when charged would ALWAYS inflict 3 hits per flamer to the attacker. No one will charge you !

casvalremdeikun wrote:So, since the FAQ nerfed grenades, does that increase the viability of Transonic Blade Ruststalkers? The loss of grenades but added Strength of the attacks (Str 6 on the Charge is not bad), almost seems to even out the options. But Chord Claws are still pretty awesome. I wish the Blade version was better, since dual-wielding blades looks really cool.

What was the FAQ about concerning grenades ?

What was the FAQ about concerning grenades ?

Only 1 grenade per unit per phase. No more 5 haywire grenades in assault from the ruststalkers.

Jackal444 wrote:

Only 1 grenade per unit per phase. No more 5 haywire grenades in assault from the ruststalkers.

Oh all right, I always knew this like that. I never use grenades so I never had to think about this haha.

As anti-vehicle I feel the Infiltrators are best suited for the job because of the number of S6 attacks they can make on a vehicle, there's no AP but it matters not when you just want to wreck it. Sure, one Haywire grenade is still nice to throw beforehand, I admit.

Ruststalkers are still better with the grenades as if they charge into terrain they are striking last, which is very common for them. Grenades are more than just haywire.

skycapt44 wrote:
Ruststalkers are still better with the grenades as if they charge into terrain they are striking last, which is very common for them. Grenades are more than just haywire.

Good call. I might still use the Transonic Blade bit on the sword arm since they look a little cooler.

 Aaranis wrote:

Hey I just had an idea, a Techpriest Dominus with the Raiment of the Technomartyr, in squad of Sisters of Silence with flamers. They would have Cognis and so when charged would ALWAYS inflict 3 hits per flamer to the attacker. No one will charge you !

Raiment of the Technomartyr affects only Cult Mechanicus models. If Cawl is in your army, you can give another character the incredible Memento-Mortispex relic which can also grant Cognis to all models in a unit.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Raiment of the Technomartyr affects only Cult Mechanicus models. If Cawl is in your army, you can give another character the incredible Memento-Mortispex relic which can also grant Cognis to all models in a unit.

Ah, forgot it only affected Mechanicus models. Are flamers really good ? I see a lot of love for these weapons, personally the only time I fielded my Torrent flamers with the Kastelan they were nigh useless, while my Phosphor Blasters always shred enemy like nothing. Asking because I'm wondering if I won't buy some flamer Sisters of Silence too. The swords were tried today, and I love them. 30 attacks at S4 AP2 shredded those Marines.

For psychic support, I like to use either a Sisters of Silence squad or Coteaz.

The Sisters are amazing at shutting down powers near your models.

Coteaz, for 100 points, is a great support option. Psychics, 2+ save, and has a great intercept ability...just a steal for the cost.

You cannot go wrong with either unit tho.

So I know this was addressed in the OP, but Sydonian Dragoons. What should I equip them with? On one hand, the Lances make them murderous in CC by laying down a ton of fairly high strength wounds. But on the other hand, the Sniper Rifle does as well through the Rad Poisoning rule. To me, the fact the chicken walkers have aluminum foil armor augmented by cover, I would be better off with the Sniper Rifle.

And the Phosphor Serpenta, yay or nay? Seems like yay on both accounts, since it gives the Lance a ranged weapon, but it also boosts the Sniper Rifle's effectiveness through the Lumigen rule.

The Snipers Rifle makes them too expensive for the number of shots. At least the Lance gives them a prime purpose to charge stuff and sweep.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Snipers Rifle makes them too expensive for the number of shots. At least the Lance gives them a prime purpose to charge stuff and sweep.

That's kind of my thought. And I have a ton shooting anyway. What about the Phosphor Serpenta?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Snipers Rifle makes them too expensive for the number of shots. At least the Lance gives them a prime purpose to charge stuff and sweep.

That's kind of my thought. And I have a ton shooting anyway. What about the Phosphor Serpenta?

If you have the points go for it, because if you get shot on your way to the enemy or if you're charging something serious that can hurt it, you risk a destroyed weapon result and it will be your lance that break down. With an additional Phosphor Serpenta you have 50% chance of your +3 S Tesla lance to break, which is nice. I had that happened to a game recently, only equipped mine with the lance.

As of the Radium Carbines, I think one or two isn't enough, you should commit a force to it if you want to use them. Let's say you run an Ironstrider Cavaliers formation, so 2 units of Dragoons and one of Ballistarii. Leave the Ballistarius alone because he's overpriced, build one unit of like 3-4 Dragoons all with Radium Jezzails + Phosphor Serpentas, and the other unit consisting of 1-2 Dragoons with Lances. Now all this comes as Flank Attack at turn one with rerolls to pick the side from which you arrive, and you can't charge in the turn you arrive anyway because the rules say so. You have 3-4 Serpentas shots that will light up your target, followed by 6-8 shots of Radium Jezzails, that on 6's to Wound inflict twice the Wounds at AP2. For bonus you can use the Ballistarius to shoot at it too, while in cover behind another Dragoon, then you finally charge your Lances unit at turn two if the target survived. Should be good enough against any target, remember you have Preferred Enemy against a character and his unit of your choice at the start of the game.

I'd like to try that but I'm reluctant on buying so many Ironstriders, they're expensive money-wise and I'd need a lot

I am suddenly reminded of the fact that Walkers DON'T have the Smash rule for whatever reason(because a kick to the face from a giant chicken walker wouldn't send something flying if it wasn't immediately turned to meat pulp). It makes the Taser Lance a little less desirable. I am only looking at one unit of two for the time being. Historically, Dragoons were mounted gunmen, which also makes me lean toward the guns.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I would be running the Dragoons in a Skitarii Maniple, so they would be rocking Scout to go with Dunestrider so the entire board is within their reach, basically

Having some Dragoons in a Skitarii Maniple is great, scout + crusader makes for some very fast chicken.

I do not really mind walkers having no smash, Dragoons with lances are still worth their salts. Their diet should mostly exist of other light vehicles and small groups of objective campers. As they destroy these units in one or two turns. Otherwise they stay to long in combat.

They do have Hammer of Wrath though, that's still something. Remember that if you use Scout you can't charge at the first turn, so keep to your Radium Carbines. I too like the idea of mounted gunmen but I love the vibe of a dude charging with a lance at light tanks or hordes of miscreants on top of his mount in the 41th millennium

The fact they can still take a Phosphor Serpenta helps. They are still Dragoons that way, to me. Perhaps I would be happier with them if there was a way to get them a Transonic Lance. That would be epic.

Ultimately, I will probably run them a time or two and see what sort of results I get out of either setup. They would just be a part of my add-on force for Crimson Fists, who are already a shooty army. A little melee wouldn't hurt (I already have a squad of Ruststalkers as well).

They really should have made the Jezzail Heavy 3.

What is the best headcount for Dragoons? I've literally heard every number thrown around.

Start with two and run them separate of each other. After that increase them in numbers if you like them. Maybe buy a single Balistrarii so that you can play the formation if you want to.
And if you like them as much as I do you might want to go for 6.

Personnal problem is that they are cheap in points but not in money, I'd run more of them if I could !

In regards to Dragoons I have run x12 total extensively in all of my games thusfar to great success. I run them in either Squads of x2 or x3 as it gives my opponents even more targets to shoot and ensures that I am able to get as many into combat as possible. I only ever run them with Taser Lances and Phosphor Serpentas as the Sniper really is not worth it no matter how you slice it. I also have x6 Ironstriders with TL-Autocannons running in support (Lascannons are to expensive and my army is saturated with Haywire) and have found they do a great job at killing anything except Heavy Armor.

 gmaleron wrote:
In regards to Dragoons I have run x12 total extensively in all of my games thusfar to great success. I run them in either Squads of x2 or x3 as it gives my opponents even more targets to shoot and ensures that I am able to get as many into combat as possible. I only ever run them with Taser Lances and Phosphor Serpentas as the Sniper really is not worth it no matter how you slice it. I also have x6 Ironstriders with TL-Autocannons running in support (Lascannons are to expensive and my army is saturated with Haywire) and have found they do a great job at killing anything except Heavy Armor.

Yeah, I've seen your army. Very impressive. It's really hard to get good information about how to field these guys in larger numbers because of how pricey they are. I plan on buying 8 kits and building either 8 or 6 Dragoons. Not only because there seems to be universal agreement that they are probably one of the most standout Skitarii units, but because they're really cool.

Would you say running them deployed in a Skitarii Maniple is superior to holding them in reserve in a Cavalier formation? The former I can see as more predictable, but the second gives me some nice assassination bonuses.

Suzuteo wrote:
Yeah, I've seen your army. Very impressive. It's really hard to get good information about how to field these guys in larger numbers because of how pricey they are. I plan on buying 8 kits and building either 8 or 6 Dragoons. Not only because there seems to be universal agreement that they are probably one of the most standout Skitarii units, but because they're really cool.

Would you say running them deployed in a Skitarii Maniple is superior to holding them in reserve in a Cavalier formation? The former I can see as more predictable, but the second gives me some nice assassination bonuses.

I only ever take them in the Skitarii Maniple mainly because I like having my forces on the table and there is always the chance you will not roll for the Formation to come in when you need it. Also goes a long way in dealing with armies like Space Wolves, Genestealer Cults and other forces that can get Turn 1 charges off, I have the speed to match them so they cannot just run blindly forward or appear right in front of me because I MSU them.

Out of curiosity where have you seen my army?

 gmaleron wrote:
I only ever take them in the Skitarii Maniple mainly because I like having my forces on the table and there is always the chance you will not roll for the Formation to come in when you need it. Also goes a long way in dealing with armies like Space Wolves, Genestealer Cults and other forces that can get Turn 1 charges off, I have the speed to match them so they cannot just run blindly forward or appear right in front of me because I MSU them.

Out of curiosity where have you seen my army?

Got it. That's what I was thinking too. My thinking has mostly been to use Dragoons in concert with Knight Errants, Vanguards, and Icarus Dunecrawlers.

I was looking up information about Dragoons, and your lists are practically the only ones with more than 3. (Not in person, if that's unclear. =P)

So anyone got some good Shadow Wars Kill Team ideas floating around? The Arqebus looks like its pretty good in that game

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So anyone got some good Shadow Wars Kill Team ideas floating around? The Arqebus looks like its pretty good in that game

Nothing concrete yet. I am going to bring the book to work tonight and skim it over. Hopefully get some ideas. It seems like using Rad Carbines on Freshforged and Galvanic Rifles on regular Troopers is a common theme from batreps I have watched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNzKRDvF7o0

This was a pretty good game.

I am going to run two Taser Lance and Phosphor Serpenta Dragoons in a squad. Or should they run separate?

Someone may have already mentioned this but I ain't reading through 70 pages.

Basically there's a way of running the Ironstrider Cavaliers formation that's hilarious. I face a lot of friends who run scary warlord units as their core (choaslord biker gang, Commander Dante and his Angels, a ork warboss mob, etc)

Doesn't always work, but I have 4 dragoons (2x2) and 1 obligatory Ballistarius. The Dragoons get equipped with the Radium jezzails, and ironstrider just keeps the autocannon to save points.

- Now with Imperatives they'll have great shooting the turn they come in and the turn after (hopefully turn 1 and 2) maybe BS 5 or 6. Obviously you designate the enemy warlord/deathstar are their target, and with that BS they will almost always hit.

-Acute sense from the formation means they'll most likely come in on the side you need them to with line of sight as well as good distance between them and the target. Somewhere they can shoot at them, but also stay semi-hidden themselves from other threats. 30" range, shouldn't be too hard.

-So they shoot with their sniper weapons, probably hitting, and any 6's are precision shots because Sniper (designate to warlord obvs).

-Now you roll to wound. Because of sniper, you wound on a +4 which is nice against the bigger bitches. You also wound at Ap2 on 6's because Sniper. You ALSO also count those Ap2's on 6's as TWO wounds each because of Radium ammunition. Oh, AAAANNND you get to re-roll any failed to-wound rolls against the target unit because of the formation, for a chance for more double Ap2's on 6's.

I deleted a fully-suped up chaos lord and his termie retinue. The warlord could likely die outright to the 4 Ap2 wounds designated to him and he lost 3 buddies for it in lookoutsirs. The rest of the wounds landed on him in the end anyways because a 5++ save will betray anybody. Out of him and 5 termies, only his survived the first salvo with 1 wound (the autocannon helped surprizingly). He footslogged for a turn and they shot him up again for Warlord Kill. Then the formation repeated this across the board for the rest of the game (without rerolls to wound of couse but wahtever).

Obviously there's tonnes of ways this can go wrong and it won't always work. But honestly, it hasn't failed me in particular yet, and my friends now deploy their warlord units over-cautiously in places where they're less useful out of fear of this formation, so it's a tactical victory for me regardless.

TimWhiskey wrote:
Someone may have already mentioned this but I ain't reading through 70 pages.

Basically there's a way of running the Ironstrider Cavaliers formation that's hilarious. I face a lot of friends who run scary warlord units as their core (choaslord biker gang, Commander Dante and his Angels, a ork warboss mob, etc)

Doesn't always work, but I have 4 dragoons (2x2) and 1 obligatory Ballistarius. The Dragoons get equipped with the Radium jezzails, and ironstrider just keeps the autocannon to save points.

- Now with Imperatives they'll have great shooting the turn they come in and the turn after (hopefully turn 1 and 2) maybe BS 5 or 6. Obviously you designate the enemy warlord/deathstar are their target, and with that BS they will almost always hit.

-Acute sense from the formation means they'll most likely come in on the side you need them to with line of sight as well as good distance between them and the target. Somewhere they can shoot at them, but also stay semi-hidden themselves from other threats. 30" range, shouldn't be too hard.

-So they shoot with their sniper weapons, probably hitting, and any 6's are precision shots because Sniper (designate to warlord obvs).

-Now you roll to wound. Because of sniper, you wound on a +4 which is nice against the bigger bitches. You also wound at Ap2 on 6's because Sniper. You ALSO also count those Ap2's on 6's as TWO wounds each because of Radium ammunition. Oh, AAAANNND you get to re-roll any failed to-wound rolls against the target unit because of the formation, for a chance for more double Ap2's on 6's.

I deleted a fully-suped up chaos lord and his termie retinue. The warlord could likely die outright to the 4 Ap2 wounds designated to him and he lost 3 buddies for it in lookoutsirs. The rest of the wounds landed on him in the end anyways because a 5++ save will betray anybody. Out of him and 5 termies, only his survived the first salvo with 1 wound (the autocannon helped surprizingly). He footslogged for a turn and they shot him up again for Warlord Kill. Then the formation repeated this across the board for the rest of the game (without rerolls to wound of couse but wahtever).

Obviously there's tonnes of ways this can go wrong and it won't always work. But honestly, it hasn't failed me in particular yet, and my friends now deploy their warlord units over-cautiously in places where they're less useful out of fear of this formation, so it's a tactical victory for me regardless.

Ha ! This is why I want Radium Dragoons, for this kind of stuff In numbers they could kill whatever they want. Problem is I mistrust reserve rolls. In my meta people almost always have flyers and I think it gives me a malus to my reserve rolls or something along these lines, and anyway if I fail the 1st turn roll their impact will be less deadly.

Also, that's 190€ for 235 points

Damnit, now Radium Jezzails are back on the table. What to do...what to do...

The fact I will be running them in a shooter heavy setup makes it that much harder to choose due to imperatives.

My group is largely ok with proxies, and since two of my dragoons are modeled with the lances, that's lucky for me. And yeah gotta watch out for your enemy having aerial superiority

I still think the Taser Lances are better.

They are flexible, working either in the Maniple or Cavalier formation; don't lose effectiveness once they no longer have the designated target rule; fulfill the crucial CC role very well; and synergize better with Serpenta.

Suzuteo wrote:
I still think the Taser Lances are better.

They are flexible, working either in the Maniple or Cavalier formation; don't lose effectiveness once they no longer have the designated target rule; fulfill the crucial CC role very well; and synergize better with Serpenta.

So help me GOD if that situation changes with 8th, I will be pissed if I give them lances. I might hold off assembling basically anything until 8th drops.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So help me GOD if that situation changes with 8th, I will be pissed if I give them lances. I might hold off assembling basically anything until 8th drops.

Given the current rumors, Dragoons will probably be more important than ever. Charging units will be attacking first, which means assault will become more common. Armor penetration is also going out the window, so everything with high strength but nor armor penetration just got an indirect buff. And if units are all getting their own move stats, do you think Dragoon movement is going to be on the higher or lower end of that spectrum?

But that's my take. Can anyone think of a reason why these changes would hurt melee Dragoons?

Dragoons attack first on the charge against 90% of enemies anyway. I would expect them to remain very mobile. But Radium Jezzails might get a significant boost somehow.

How so? I mean, bear in mind that even if they get buffed, we still haven't an established use for the Jezzail Dragoon in 7th, much less 8th edition. I suppose that's because all of the past competitive lists--Drop Pods, WarCon, Knights--all used the melee variant.

Speaking of which, what is the competitive Skitarii list outside of WarCon and Knights now? The GranCon and ConAcq formations seem rather weak.

Which reminds me: Does ConAcq grant Canticles to EVERYONE or just models with the Canticles rule? I know it grants Imperatives to everyone if you fill it out, but that's insanity.

How about magnetizing? I magnetized the weapon arms on my dragoons, it's not that hard.

trindaros wrote:
How about magnetizing? I magnetized the weapon arms on my dragoons, it's not that hard.

I don't magnetize infantry(only vehicles), and the Dragoon is an infantry model on top of a walker. I am going to give him the Lances.

Has anyone thought about combining Dragoons with Secutarii Peltasts? You can use Scout and Crusader to run some Dragoons up, then have the Peltasts give the Dragoons in front of them Shrouded for 3+++. The next turn, the Dragoons charge the target, followed by the Peltasts (who can be combined with Cawl for some 2++ rerollable shenanigans).

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I might hold off assembling basically anything until 8th drops.

this is my position. i've got three rhinos to assemble, and terrain, but that's it.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I might hold off assembling basically anything until 8th drops.

this is my position. i've got three rhinos to assemble, and terrain, but that's it.

Pretty much the same here. I am going to assemble my tanks, drop pods, and scenery. Most infantry will have their bodies assembled, but no weapons unless they have one setup.

My Onager is going to be 90% assembled (no weapon options or accessory options). The Dragoons will have everything besides the lance or Jezzail. But, since ripping the arm off an infantry model is not all that hard, they will probably have lances.

My Sicarians are actually the thing I am worried about. If Twin Transonic Blades become viable or even preferred, they will be a pain to remodel.

My Sydonians arrived today. I really wish there was a holstered or slung Taser Lance bit so I could model each one differently. The fact you can model one with a slung Jezzail and Serpenta but not a lance limits the options for modeling. That almost makes the Jezzail worth it.

Anyway. I can't wait to put them together.

Has anyone seen any of those interesting Relic spam lists? I've seen them discussed in the European and Asian community while Googling for Skitarii lists.

They usually take a Grand Convocation and a Skitarii Maniple, sometimes with a Battle Congregation for the 8x Canticle bonus. The Grand Convocation has Cawl and 3 Domini. The Troops are silver bullets made up of Breachers, Grav Destroyers, Peltasts, and Vanguard. The idea is to pair a priest with a unit and to deploy these combined units where they are needed most. The rest of the points go into Dragoons in the Maniple (because of Scout) or a 3x Dunecrawler squadron in the GranCon (Icarus and 2x Neutron Laser; abuses IWND and PotMS).

EDIT: Bentagon's list here apparently won the Insipring Gaming Cup II in Hamburg

And here's something I cooked up after reading a Chinese thread:

Grand Convocation Detachment (1025)

HQ
Belisarius Cawl
Tech-Priest Dominus - Memento-Mortispex
Tech-Priest Dominus - Saint Curia's Autopurger
Tech-Priest Dominus - Conversion Field; Omnissiah's Grace

Troops
3x Kataphron Breachers - Heavy Arc Rifle, Arc Claw
3x Kataphron Destroyers - Heavy Grav-cannon, Cognis Flamer
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard

Skitarii Maniple (825)

Troops
10x Skitarii Vanguard - 3x Arc Rifle
10x Skitarii Vanguard - Pater Radium

Elites
15 Secutarii Peltast - Omnispex

Fast Attack
4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

. Cawl with the Peltasts, Morti-Priest with either of the Destroyers, Curia-Priest with the Pater-Vanguard, the Grace-Priest with any other unit as a tank.

Suzuteo wrote:
Has anyone seen any of those interesting Relic spam lists? I've seen them discussed in the European and Asian community while Googling for Skitarii lists.

They usually take a Grand Convocation and a Skitarii Maniple, sometimes with a Battle Congregation for the 8x Canticle bonus. The Grand Convocation has Cawl and 3 Domini. The Troops are silver bullets made up of Breachers, Grav Destroyers, Peltasts, and Vanguard. The idea is to pair a priest with a unit and to deploy these combined units where they are needed most. The rest of the points go into Dragoons in the Maniple (because of Scout) or a 3x Dunecrawler squadron in the GranCon (Icarus and 2x Neutron Laser; abuses IWND and PotMS).

EDIT: Bentagon's list here apparently won the Insipring Gaming Cup II in Hamburg

That is definetly a very interesting idea to experiment. I like using all the new relics that we get so I will definitely give this a shot.

I think I would rather run the vanguard in Grand convocation and Ran battle congregation with Destroyers for double Canticle goodness with Cawl. Also with that many cult units adding a Crusader Knight and keep him close proximity to Cawl sounds very tempting

Zalek wrote:
That is definetly a very interesting idea to experiment. I like using all the new relics that we get so I will definitely give this a shot.

I think I would rather run the vanguard in Grand convocation and Ran battle congregation with Destroyers for double Canticle goodness with Cawl. Also with that many cult units adding a Crusader Knight and keep him close proximity to Cawl sounds very tempting

Yeah, Bentagon went with the Battle Congregation and a unit of Breachers and Destroyers. I would want to rely more on my Imperatives though.

A Crusader might not make too much sense in this sort of army, since most of its value added comes from making silver bullets through relic/Canticle/Imperatives synergy. =\

If anyone in this thread would be interested I may be willing to part with my fully painted Ryza army (3000 points) to start a new project for 8th edition!

 gmaleron wrote:
If anyone in this thread would be interested I may be willing to part with my fully painted Ryza army (3000 points) to start a new project for 8th edition!

Piecemeal or the whole thing? (You should probably do this in the marketplace forum. Haha.)

Suzuteo wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
If anyone in this thread would be interested I may be willing to part with my fully painted Ryza army (3000 points) to start a new project for 8th edition!

Piecemeal or the whole thing? (You should probably do this in the marketplace forum. Haha.)

Figured I'd mention it here as well lol and preferably the whole thing together

So we've all been following the 8th edition roll out? What does everyone think?

Some topics I am thinking:
It looks like the reign of pure shooting armies is over. How will AdMech adapt to the higher potential for assault?

What will happen to our Imperatives? Will they really let us keep the +3 on fixed rolls?

If Dreadnoughts get 8 wounds and a 3+ save, this means our Dunecrawlers and Ironstriders will have 8 and 6-8 wounds, respectively. This seems to increase the power of IWND and repairs, as our models will more likely have damage on them.

You're assuming a lot of things there. IWND might not even exist at all. Also, because of the disengage move, AdMech ranged troops will be able to back out of combat if needed. But Vanguards, if they keep Rad Saturation, will probably be better than Rangers since they will be able to handle CC better. Giving the Alpha close combat weapons might be a much better choice now, especially if they can shoot them in CC. I am looking at a Radium Pistol and an Arc Maul on my Alpha rather than a Radium Carbine.

I am looking forward to what happened to grenades so I can decide on what to do with my Sicarians. At the current rate, they are probably going to be built as Taser Lance and Flechette Blaster due to the ability to fire pistols in close combat. If the Assault Phase article makes it look like Ruststalkers will be viable, I might still build them. Hopefully they make the twin Transonic Blade version on equal footing to the Chordclaw and Transonic Razor version, since I really prefer the look of two blades.

Sydonian Dragoons will be up in the air until we know what Sniper does. As it stands, they are going to be more durable in the first place. Ballistarii are in a weird place since they will be more durable, but still fill a role better served by the Donkeytank.

However Blast attacks work is going to dictate how the Dunecrawler turns out. It is definitely going to be more durable in the first place. I am still probably going to give it the Neutron Laser unless Skyfire has been reworked.

One thing is for sure, now that Cover adds straight bonus to Armor saves, Omnispexes are downright mandatory and Phosphor might be a good idea for many units. It definitely makes the Phosphor Serpents on Dragoons practically mandatory.

You're right, I totally did not consider that they would get rid of IWND. They also teased something called Stratagems recently, which might involve a change to the command benefits of BF armies altogether. If so, we might see formations like WarCon and Gladius getting overhauled. (I really really hope they listen to everyone and get rid of the "free points" formations.)

I still think Vanguard should be kept out of CC. Maybe I am just stingy with points...

Unless they screw over Dragoon movement (unlikely, given how they clearly had been designed to have insane speed with the Dunestrider rule) or damage, I see their relevance increasing, not decreasing. I don't really see a niche for Ballistarii to fill. Speedy artillery platform seems meh, though I guess the lascannons seem more powerful now. Guess we'll have to look at the stats when they release.

Yeah, Omnispex and Phosphor Serpenta definitely got a boost from how they folded cover and armor together. This actually might be one of Skitarii's biggest strengths down the road.

Howdy, can anyone offer some advice for a new Tech-Adept facing off against Necrons? I won't be playing War Con and don't have Kastelans at the moment. Having trouble dealing with the Decurion in general as well as sword + board Lychguard and of course Wraiths. Will usually be playing 750-1250 games of Maelstrom.

Suzuteo wrote:

Unless they screw over Dragoon movement (unlikely, given how they clearly had been designed to have insane speed with the Dunestrider rule) or damage, I see their relevance increasing, not decreasing. I don't really see a niche for Ballistarii to fill. Speedy artillery platform seems meh, though I guess the lascannons seem more powerful now. Guess we'll have to look at the stats when they release.

I meant it is up in the air which Dragoon version is going to be better. If the Sniper Rifle gets a buff, it might come down to taste. The Phosphor Serpenta is basically a must. They are most definitely going to have a place. The Ballistarii are the unit I worry about in terms of being pointless. Cognis is probably still going to make Overwatch on a 5 or 6. What they do with twin-linked is going to be important as well.

As for Vanguards, I am not saying they should be charging into combat, I am saying that if they keep Rad Saturation and they do end up in combat, it won't be nearly as bad as if Rangers end up in combat.

YES! Formations are gone! Finally, we are freed from the oppressive restraints of the WarCon (not to mention a handful of other OP armies).

Anyhow, looking at these detachments, it may be the case that they will combine Skitarii and CM. There are mandatory HQ and Fast Attack slots, and Skitarii lack the former, CM the latter.

Suzuteo wrote:
YES! Formations are gone! Finally, we are freed from the oppressive restraints of the WarCon (not to mention a handful of other OP armies).

Anyhow, looking at these detachments, it may be the case that they will combine Skitarii and CM. There are mandatory HQ and Fast Attack slots, and Skitarii lack the former, CM the latter.

I'm actually hoping that they stay separate, as Skitarii are an entirely diffrent organization from cult, basically the imperial guard. However, it seems likely that they'd trow fluff out of the window and just mash cult, skitarii and knights into one book, with a few detachments for each faction.

trindaros wrote:
I'm actually hoping that they stay separate, as Skitarii are an entirely diffrent organization from cult, basically the imperial guard. However, it seems likely that they'd trow fluff out of the window and just mash cult, skitarii and knights into one book, with a few detachments for each faction.

From a fluff perspective, sure, that makes sense. But from a gameplay perspective, they need to start combining codexes to form "complete" factions that are capable of taking advantage of their new detachment system, which seems to reward larger armies of one faction with command points. As it stands, if Skitarii and CM are kept separate, they will all be at a severe disadvantage. Given the Imperium/Chaos/Xenos breakdown that we've seen, I think this is a question of just how much merging there will be, not if there will or won't be any.

Aside from this, as a professional game designer, I do think that combining codexes into factions will allow for easier playtesting and content updates. For example, you have a ton of minor Imperium agent factions (Adeptus Custodes, Adepta Sororitas, Astra Telepathica, Deathwatch, Inquisition, Officio Assassinorium, Sisters of Silence) that can be combined into one massive Inquisition faction. The remainder are folded into the Adeptus Astartes and Astra Militarum. Alternatively and additionally, you can just make a ton of detachments that only allow you to choose from certain codexes. This would let you share a faction like Imperial Knights between Adeptus Mechanicus and Astra Militarum.

Suzuteo wrote:

trindaros wrote:
I'm actually hoping that they stay separate, as Skitarii are an entirely diffrent organization from cult, basically the imperial guard. However, it seems likely that they'd trow fluff out of the window and just mash cult, skitarii and knights into one book, with a few detachments for each faction.

From a fluff perspective, sure, that makes sense. But from a gameplay perspective, they need to start combining codexes to form "complete" factions that are capable of taking advantage of their new detachment system, which seems to reward larger armies of one faction with command points. As it stands, if Skitarii and CM are kept separate, they will all be at a severe disadvantage. Given the Imperium/Chaos/Xenos breakdown that we've seen, I think this is a question of just how much merging there will be, not if there will or won't be any.

Aside from this, as a professional game designer, I do think that combining codexes into factions will allow for easier playtesting and content updates. For example, you have a ton of minor Imperium agent factions (Adeptus Custodes, Adepta Sororitas, Astra Telepathica, Deathwatch, Inquisition, Officio Assassinorium, Sisters of Silence) that can be combined into one massive Inquisition faction. The remainder are folded into the Adeptus Astartes and Astra Militarum. Alternatively and additionally, you can just make a ton of detachments that only allow you to choose from certain codexes. This would let you share a faction like Imperial Knights between Adeptus Mechanicus and Astra Militarum.

I'd expect them to combine all loyal non marine armies in one book and everthing else loyal in another book. I'm hoping that skitarii at least get their own detachment and possibly thier own unique rules (imperatives), with maby their own codex in the future. I know it's just my opinion, but I don't want to be forced to buy new mini's just to make my army functional again. I actually enjoyed using the skitarii maniple detachment and the fact that we didn't need any IC's to have a functional army.

Special Weapons in Ranger and Vanguard Squads just got a big boost now that everything has Split Fire. Those Arquebus are no longer going to hamper the squad's shooting since they can shoot at something totally different.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Special Weapons in Ranger and Vanguard Squads just got a big boost now that everything has Split Fire. Those Arquebus are no longer going to hamper the squad's shooting since they can shoot at something totally different.

WAIT REALLY?! Where did they say that? That's huge. There would be no reason not to run full units now. It also makes Dunecrawler so much stronger as well.

Suzuteo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Special Weapons in Ranger and Vanguard Squads just got a big boost now that everything has Split Fire. Those Arquebus are no longer going to hamper the squad's shooting since they can shoot at something totally different.

WAIT REALLY?! Where did they say that? That's huge. There would be no reason not to run full units now. It also makes Dunecrawler so much stronger as well.

Actually, morale makes smaller units more viable at this time. But Rangers hiding in cover taking shots at tanks will be more fun.

Dunecrawlers can now mix Squads without sacrificing viability. I am thinking two Neutron Laser Dunecrawlers and one AA Dunecrawler in a squad. Hopefully they can actually still BE in Squads.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Special Weapons in Ranger and Vanguard Squads just got a big boost now that everything has Split Fire. Those Arquebus are no longer going to hamper the squad's shooting since they can shoot at something totally different.

WAIT REALLY?! Where did they say that? That's huge. There would be no reason not to run full units now. It also makes Dunecrawler so much stronger as well.

Actually, morale makes smaller units more viable at this time. But Rangers hiding in cover taking shots at tanks will be more fun.

Dunecrawlers can now mix Squads without sacrificing viability. I am thinking two Neutron Laser Dunecrawlers and one AA Dunecrawler in a squad. Hopefully they can actually still BE in Squads.

As skitarii we could potentially do very good as MSU, as we can field up to 8 5man units with 2 special weapon, if we keep our special detachment, but you're going to have to pay extra points for so many small units as alpha tax. Too bad we don't know if special rules such as relentless, FnP, crusader and scout and our special detachment will be in the game.

Pete Foley seemed to indicate a Detachment without an HQ is a possibility. Stuff like the Scout and Crusader could be bespoke rules for Skitarii units.

I don't follow. Reducing unit size will prevent blowouts from a morale check, but wouldn't that comes will reduced effectiveness and point efficiency, given how it seems every unit will want an Omnispex now?

Furthermore, even before 8th, after the Drop Pod and Scouting Fortification nerfs, one of the only viable strategies for AdMech outside of WarCon is spamming Cawl and TPDs to bolster full squads of Skitarii and Destroyers. I foresee that this will be common in the future as well.

@#$%

Spoke too soon. Apparently, ICs can't join units anymore... wow. Half of the shenanigans just went out the window. I guess they will redesign all of the Relics to provide "aura"-like effects?

News just keeps coming. Twin-linked weapons now shoot twice. What a huge buff. The twin-linked lascannons on the Ballistarii look a lot more impressive now; double attacks, D6 damage.

Suzuteo wrote:
News just keeps coming. Twin-linked weapons now shoot twice. What a huge buff. The twin-linked lascannons on the Ballistarii look a lot more impressive now; double attacks, D6 damage.

Yup. The Phosphor Blaster on the Onager might be a better option now. And the TL Icarus Autocannons on the Icarus array will be even better. But Ballistarii might be an even better option for shooting down flyers, especially if cognis makes hitting them easier.

I think we have the cheapest TL Lascannon now. Predators come at 100 points--and they're space inefficient and don't even get Cognis.

Man, I am really tempted to build a pure Ironstrider army. It would cost an arm and a leg though...

Kastellan Robots with twin-linked heavy phosphor blasters anyone ? I'd wait for the datasheets and the rules to buy anything though. Might have us some surprises.

As long as I can have an excuse to field Tempestus Scions and add tanks to my army I'll be happy !

 Aaranis wrote:
Kastellan Robots with twin-linked heavy phosphor blasters anyone ? I'd wait for the datasheets and the rules to buy anything though. Might have us some surprises.

As long as I can have an excuse to field Tempestus Scions and add tanks to my army I'll be happy !

Who wasn't running them that way anyway? It was the best loadout.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Kastellan Robots with twin-linked heavy phosphor blasters anyone ? I'd wait for the datasheets and the rules to buy anything though. Might have us some surprises.

As long as I can have an excuse to field Tempestus Scions and add tanks to my army I'll be happy !

Who wasn't running them that way anyway? It was the best loadout.

Yeah sure my unit was equipped like that anyway, but with Incendine Combustors because I wanted that at the time. They'll be nice in the upcoming V8 it seems, hope they'll keep the extra range of Torrent.

 Aaranis wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Kastellan Robots with twin-linked heavy phosphor blasters anyone ? I'd wait for the datasheets and the rules to buy anything though. Might have us some surprises.

As long as I can have an excuse to field Tempestus Scions and add tanks to my army I'll be happy !

Who wasn't running them that way anyway? It was the best loadout.

Yeah sure my unit was equipped like that anyway, but with Incendine Combustors because I wanted that at the time. They'll be nice in the upcoming V8 it seems, hope they'll keep the extra range of Torrent.

I expect Torrent will just be represented as longer range on an autohit weapon. I am actually looking at the Heavy Phosphor Blaster as a viable weapon on the Onager Dunecrawler for the first time ever. I can't wait for out Faction Focus article. Hopefully they say enough to make me not regret building Rangers instead of Vanguards. I might just need to give my Alpha a pistol in some of the Squads.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Kastellan Robots with twin-linked heavy phosphor blasters anyone ? I'd wait for the datasheets and the rules to buy anything though. Might have us some surprises.

As long as I can have an excuse to field Tempestus Scions and add tanks to my army I'll be happy !

Who wasn't running them that way anyway? It was the best loadout.

Yeah sure my unit was equipped like that anyway, but with Incendine Combustors because I wanted that at the time. They'll be nice in the upcoming V8 it seems, hope they'll keep the extra range of Torrent.

I expect Torrent will just be represented as longer range on an autohit weapon. I am actually looking at the Heavy Phosphor Blaster as a viable weapon on the Onager Dunecrawler for the first time ever. I can't wait for out Faction Focus article. Hopefully they say enough to make me not regret building Rangers instead of Vanguards. I might just need to give my Alpha a pistol in some of the Squads.

I hope that we also get some answers about merging Skitarii with Cult (and possibly Knights) and what happens to doctrina imperatives and canticles. I'm actually hoping for some new units for both armies, and that their individual identities gets fleshed out more.

Also, as the neutron laser is a small blast, I'd expect it to become heavy D3 shots, and te eradication beamer something like "0-9 / 9-18 / 18-36" str 10 / 8 / 6 ap -4 / -3 / -2 heavy1/heavyD3/heavyD6 don't know if that works out as a buff though

I'm getting back into the game with 8th and starting from scratch army wise. I have 4 Skitarii SC boxes. My plan is to magnetize all 4 dune crawler. The infantry I plan on 30 vanguard and 10 rangers but am not building any alphas. Not sure if I want to magnetize them yet.

I will build all 12 special weapons and just have ranger heads on the sniper rifles, so that will mean 2 5 man ranger squads. I think sniper rifles have a better role now to try and pick off IC that are roaming around. Or even just plink at long range stuff to get rid of HW or SW troops now that split fire exists. I think 2 squads with 2 snipers is better than 1 with 3 because of angles with terrain etc.

That will leave me with 3 full vanguard squads with a mix of the 8 plasma cavs and arc rifles that remain.

I'm waiting on the tech priest until I see what 8th brings.

I know I want two more dune crawlers to be able to field two squads of 3. So I dunno if i bite the bullet and get two more SC boxes which would put me in infantry overload or not. Granted 60 foot sloggers might be handy.

I'm kind of holding off on any other purchases though I do like the castellan robots. I used to play Space Marine aka Epic, and had them in that game. I'm just not sure if I want pure Skitarii or a mix with CM.

I like the chicken walkers and have read positive things about them in 7th. So i may get some when I get my codex voucher from GW.

"Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect. Brutal!"

I hope this mean Icarus Dunecrawlers can shoot Crisis Battlesuits now. Bwahaha.

@bortass
I have all my kits, and I am sitting pretty until I see stats. For example, Sydonian Dragoons were the clear best chicken walker option in 7th, but now, those overpriced TL Cognis Lascannon Ballistarii look mighty tempting...

@casvalremdeikun
It looks like the Sniper rule now lets you shoot any character regardless if it is the closest target or not. This can be super useful against other shooting armies that need their character for morale and wargear bonuses.

Suzuteo wrote:
"Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect. Brutal!"

I hope this mean Icarus Dunecrawlers can shoot Crisis Battlesuits now. Bwahaha.

@bortass
I have all my kits, and I am sitting pretty until I see stats. For example, Sydonian Dragoons were the clear best chicken walker option in 7th, but now, those overpriced TL Cognis Lascannon Ballistarii look mighty tempting...

I hear ya on the kits. I don't have an army since I got rid of all my stuff last spring. I ordered another two start collecting boxes. It may be overkill but the numbers work. It'll give me the 6 dunewalkers I want. I also will have 6 full squads of infantry. I will go with two ranger and four vanguard. The rangers will get the sniper riflles and the vanguard will split the plasma and arc rifles. I plan to assemble and paint most of the infantry. I can do 8 per box, it's the Alpha and omnispex guy that I'm holding off on. I don't feel like magnetizing my alphas... The dunecrawlers will all get magnets.

I ordered three chicken walkers since I had a codex credit to offset the cost some. I did see a magnetized version of them but it required the gunshield to be glued on, so the CC walkers had the shield. Not the end of the world but I don't know how good it looks in RL. I will maybe do some basic assembly of them but doubt it. I probably won't have my 48 infantry all painted by release, lol.

The tech priest is waiting as well. I'm gonna have to try to sell a few of them off since I don't see needing 6 of them unless I just build them differently to swap out as needed. Not sure if I want to magnetize that model yet.

Hopefully they drop us some info soon with a faction focus...

Suzuteo wrote:
"Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect. Brutal!"

I hope this mean Icarus Dunecrawlers can shoot Crisis Battlesuits now. Bwahaha.

You could shoot them before. You just were hitting on 6s because of Skyfire.

If anything, I would expect some kind of benefit against something with keywords Flyer, Jetbike, Skimmer, or the like. Not just "Keyword: Fly" because then all of a sudden AA weapons are apparently for popping jump pack infantry?

Anyone base their dunestalkers? I've only built one and it's not on a base yet. Curious if there are any quality of life tradeoffs when moving it around the table or transporting them.

I can see a small rules benefit to using the base in 8th but I dunno if it's worth it.

I did my bases up separately so I can set them on the bases or take them off (for transport or trying to fit them in terrain.

Not to detract from this thread but I have a fully painted 3K skittarii/ad mech force for sale if anyone is in rebuilding or starting the Army for 8th edition!! Only bring it up here because you guys be the ones to benefit the most from it

Looks like it's that time of year, folks. Time to update OP, and gather leaks!

Meh.


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Full scans, courtesy of rdv1ofakind.

Did anyone else notice that the Ruststalkers Princeps can change his weapons out independently from the squad? This means that you can give him two Transonic Blades and a Chord Claw and leave everyone else with a Transonic Razor and a Chord Claw. It used to be that everyone had to change their weapons together. This is a really cool addition, and seems to be the most potent loadout since he has the most attacks, and he doesn't miss out on the Chord Claw.

Also, I think I am going Radium Jezzail and Phosphor Serpenta on my Sydonians. Being able to snipe at Characters is a big deal.

From the looks of it, Vanguard outclass Rangers now. Better range, better killing. Just overall better unless I am missing something.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

From the looks of it, Vanguard outclass Rangers now. Better range, better killing. Just overall better unless I am missing something.

Rangers still have better range though..

 Kanluwen wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
"Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect. Brutal!"

I hope this mean Icarus Dunecrawlers can shoot Crisis Battlesuits now. Bwahaha.

You could shoot them before. You just were hitting on 6s because of Skyfire.

If anything, I would expect some kind of benefit against something with keywords Flyer, Jetbike, Skimmer, or the like. Not just "Keyword: Fly" because then all of a sudden AA weapons are apparently for popping jump pack infantry?

Icaruscrawler popping "Fly" keyword on a 2+ is now confirmed! Ahahaha, Admech owns the skies!

On a side note, whats the thoughts on electro priests now? Corpus are down 4pts a Fulg down 2pts while becoming what appears to be abit more killy.

Gak Attack wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

From the looks of it, Vanguard outclass Rangers now. Better range, better killing. Just overall better unless I am missing something.

Rangers still have better range though..

They can shoot further, but in order to get in rapid fire range, they have to be shorter ranged than Vanguard. And they don't really have any bonuses anymore. It would have been cool if Galvanic Rifles allowed the attacker to pick casualties rather than the defender.

I don't like the new Sicarians, they look really boring now? I'd rather run ruststalkers over infiltrators because I like the look of their weapons more, but no grenades and they're just going to get shot and die immediately

Neurostatic aura and transonic blades have some cool lore, and I just feel really let down.

Loving the electropriests though, especially the fulgarites for those glorious mortal wounds.

Cawl's probably going to setup camp by my kataphrons every game, maybe I'll hit a torsion cannon shot for once?

Transuranic Arquebuses look too expensive still, but sniping characters without having to waste shooting is probably going to be a lot more valuable than I think.

Canticles seem dull and uninspired. I'd honestly prefer doctrines with their cost/benefit design.

Arc weapons look pretty gak to me? Haywire was very reliable.

Wow I have so much to say about all these leaks, thanks for sharing them by the way, I was concerned about my beloved Mechanicus army

The Techpriest Dominus now rocks 5W and can repair 1d3 each turn, this is huge ! No more having to choose between repairing your Onager or yourself. The rerolls of 1 in Shooting for close Mechanicus units is nice to have too since you can't hide him anymore. Overall these changes are nice I think.

Having the Enginseer officialy in our codex feels right, might be a nice support character to fix your Doom Onagers (seriously they look rad).

The Kataphrons are overall more expensive depending on their loadout (I counted 228 pts for my 3 Grav/Flamer Kataphrons). I like that they are a bit slower but can still sprint, and they finally gain their FnP (replaced for all the army by an invulnerable save, I like that too). I still believe I'll sell them because I don't like the models :(

Electropriests looks buffed as they should be, nobody picked them in V7. Now they seem more resilient and able to dish out Mortal Wounds like nothing. Still dont like their models haha

Oh lord my beloved Kastelan Robots, you're now even better ! Move of 8", 6 Wounds. The change to the repulsor grid is nice, although different, and the change to the Aegis Protocol is welcome (+1 to saves and Inv. saves). 3 Attacks stock is good, I think this will encourage people to play them more melee-orientated thanks to their better move and the 3 damage of the Powerfists. Love the Combustor, no regrets modelling mine with these now. Also notice they do not require a Datasmith anymore, but in a way you'll still play him because as he's a character you can hide him and he can repair the robots at last ! Problem will be to keep up with the Robots's pace if you make them run full 8". I think I'll buy more of these guys

As for the Rangers and Vanguards I feel a but sad, they look nerfed overall. The Rangers don't have what made them Rangers anymore, I mean a bonus to represent their superior agility. Galvanic Rifles don't look that great anymore to shoot off 4+ enemies :/ They don't feel like hunters anymore. The arquebus still looks nice, sad to see they don't really have Relentless anymore, but the change to the weapons looks balanced. I'll probably use my 2 squads as the sniper one like today, and the barebones Rangers as buffers between attackers and them. The Vanguard look better than the Rangers this time, as the Assault weapons mean you can Advance and shoot with a malus of -1, they'll be able to get in range faster. The Radium Carbines looks more built towards killing big models now, but it's still nerfed, I can't wound ANY Toughness now, and you won't be able to clear up a unit faster due to the radioactive additional wounds. Still, with a little luck of shot can kill a Primaris Marine in one hit. The Omnispex will be mandatory I feel. The change to how plasma works means I can now use mine without fear of him blowing up after one shot ! Yeah !

Don't know how to feel about the Infiltrators, on one hand they're still devastating in melee with how many hits they can inflict (with a Taser Goad even better), but their Neurostatic Aura is not so great and their Ld is terrible. Their weapons feel buffed, that means they'll be able to shoot a lot in melee given both are pistols, and the Flechette Blasters more reliable now with S3. WS 3+ is a nice bonus. I absolutely love the new Infiltration, as they can be used to make a diversion to grab an objective or something. With a bit of luck you can still charge while arriving from Infiltration too. I'm just concerned as to find a spot on the table where they can spawn while being out of the 9" distance from the enemy. Also, they're REALLY cheaper now, my 5 man squad with Taser Goads and Flechette Blasters costs 128 pts instead of 185.

Now for the Ironstriders. They're more expensive but hell now they have 10" move and 6 Wounds so I can let pass The Ballistarii look on the same footing for melee as the Dragoons save from one attack less, but how can you end up in melee with that speed ? The Ballistarii seems better and worth taking now. The Dragoons looks promising, Taser Lances now deal 2 damage and keep the Taser rule, the Radium Carbine will make them great character hunters and they keep their incense cloud. you'll pay a Dragoon with Taser Lance 68 pts instead of 45 now though, but remember how tougher they look.

The Dunecrawler looks like an absolute beast. They don't count as units anymore so their Emanatus fields are changed, it's a permanent 5++ with rerolls if within 6" of another Dunecrawler. I like it because you can now shoot at different targets with your multiple Onagers. 11 Wounds and 8" move is really good, given they can now advance (albeit 3" max) and they ignore the penalty for moving and shooting. Eradication Beamer now only have two ranges but still looks devastating, as are his other weapons. The Neutron Laser is still the final boss of heavy weapons to me, dealing effectively 3+1d3 damage at AP -4 at 48". Twin Heavy Phosphor Blaster is viable now with that many shots that ignore cover (take that, Eldar scum) but to me the big surprise is the buffed Icarus Array. All these weapons can shoot a 4+ on any Ground Targets, and 2+ on Flying units, 2+ ! I'll definitely build my next one with this. They're more expensive to justify their lethality, 148 points for an Onager with Laser + Heavy Stubber. Only thing I'm sad about is that I can't charge with the Cognis Manipulator to crush anyone under S10 AP1 attacks, but oh well

I'm really happy with how the army looks. The army-wide 6++ is good because only Mortal Wounds will ignore it this time and not 80% of the arsenal of the game. I love the explode rule, that encourages to charge with your Dragoons and Robots to make them kamikaze on the enemy and that is so lore-loving I can't help it. I'm sad for the Relentless that is mostly gone though, that was a signature of the army for me, but hey they have so much new stuff it's still good. The basic Rangers and Vanguards for me looks less important than before, except for carrying special weapons and of course capturing. I still think I'll add Tempestus Scions if their rules are nice and there's a legal way to place them without too much hassle.

Really looking forward to try this all out More Kastelaaaaaan !

 Aaranis wrote:

Oh lord my beloved Kastelan Robots, you're now even better ! Move of 8", 6 Wounds. The change to the repulsor grid is nice, although different, and the change to the Aegis Protocol is welcome (+1 to saves and Inv. saves). 3 Attacks stock is good, I think this will encourage people to play them more melee-orientated thanks to their better move and the 3 damage of the Powerfists. Love the Combustor, no regrets modelling mine with these now. Also notice they do not require a Datasmith anymore, but in a way you'll still play him because as he's a character you can hide him and he can repair the robots at last ! Problem will be to keep up with the Robots's pace if you make them run full 8". I think I'll buy more of these guys

A couple other things about Kastelen I noticed...

-They are now vehicles (the enginseer can repair them!)

- the Kastelen protocols take effect at the start of the next Battle Round, not your next turn. Which means if you go second, your choice will take effect at the start of their turn. Important for that double overwatch or double fight if you're about to be charged.

-Protocols are done independently of the datasmith now. So if you have two melee Kastelens in a unit up front within 6" using Conquerer, you can have the shooty Kastelen unit 6" behind using Protector, off of one datasmith.

-the Suffer the shooting heavy weapon on the move penalty :(




Side note- both Ironstriders are now FAST ATTACK, freeing up some HS slots

Hooray! Balistarii are worth taking, now!

A bit sad that Rangers are still questionable. I want to actually build some.

Will get to work updating OP as soon as I get on a proper computer.

 Verviedi wrote:
Hooray! Balistarii are worth taking, now!

A bit sad that Rangers are still questionable. I want to actually build some.

Will get to work updating OP as soon as I get on a proper computer.

Just do what I am going to do and give Vanguards Ranger heads. Better guns and cooler appearance.

Ooof. I guess coming off a WarConvo makes the sticker shock on points a bit more extreme. Looks like it is going to be tough to fit in most of what I had in my 1850 and 2000 lists now. Stuff all around got expensive.

The Dunecrawlers seem brutal now. Balistarii with Twin Las look like a nice way to start hurting tanks.

Ruststalkers with their high attacks mean potentially a fair amount of mortal wounds. That might make them worthwhile.

I am still digesting the faction.

Any info on the <FORGE WORLD> stuff? I run Metalica, so Cawl is now off limits for me?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Ooof. I guess coming off a WarConvo makes the sticker shock on points a bit more extreme. Looks like it is going to be tough to fit in most of what I had in my 1850 and 2000 lists now. Stuff all around got expensive.

The Dunecrawlers seem brutal now. Balistarii with Twin Las look like a nice way to start hurting tanks.

Ruststalkers with their high attacks mean potentially a fair amount of mortal wounds. That might make them worthwhile.

I am still digesting the faction.

Any info on the <FORGE WORLD> stuff? I run Metalica, so Cawl is now off limits for me?

Curious about the Forge World keyword too, is it just a fluff decision or will it impact the gameplay with "Forge World" tactics, like Chapters ? Mine are from my own Forge World so I'd have to choose the rules befitting them the most I guess.

And yes, that would make only the Mars units benefit from Cawl's power.

EDIT: Oh I noticed I misread the Explode rule, you have to roll a D6 and it's only on a 6 that it explodes. Seems way more reasonable suddenly

 Aaranis wrote:


Curious about the Forge World keyword too, is it just a fluff decision or will it impact the gameplay with "Forge World" tactics, like Chapters ? Mine are from my own Forge World so I'd have to choose the rules befitting them the most I guess.

And yes, that would make only the Mars units benefit from Cawl's power.

EDIT: Oh I noticed I misread the Explode rule, you have to roll a D6 and it's only on a 6 that it explodes. Seems way more reasonable suddenly

I hope they do, otherwise all it does is lock everyone that doesn't use Mars from using Cawl. Of course if you do use one that's not the big 3(based on what they provided in the painting guide etc) there won't be much support for it. I went with FW Lucius for no real reason outside I like being a bit contrarian and not having access to Cawl is fine with me. I never liked named characters. Right now FW will be the same as <regiment> for Guard. A way to limit buffs in a fluffy way.

I can now start pricing out my current forces and see what I need to add. The omnispex looks like a must take still. I only built one of my 6 Onagers and left the Cognis manipulator off it, just as well it seems. The big hole I see is going to be CC. I have 60 Skitarii, 6 Onagers, and 3 chicken walkers. The Onagers will be magnetized and I assume that I'll go with the CC build for the walkers. I did see someone magnetize those for bot CC and shooting but it required leaving the gun shield on at all times since there was no good way to make it removable. Never having played in 7th and Ad Mech didn't exist the last time I played is making this interesting. I'm just slapping stuff together, lol.

bortass wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:


Curious about the Forge World keyword too, is it just a fluff decision or will it impact the gameplay with "Forge World" tactics, like Chapters ? Mine are from my own Forge World so I'd have to choose the rules befitting them the most I guess.

And yes, that would make only the Mars units benefit from Cawl's power.

EDIT: Oh I noticed I misread the Explode rule, you have to roll a D6 and it's only on a 6 that it explodes. Seems way more reasonable suddenly

I hope they do, otherwise all it does is lock everyone that doesn't use Mars from using Cawl. Of course if you do use one that's not the big 3(based on what they provided in the painting guide etc) there won't be much support for it. I went with FW Lucius for no real reason outside I like being a bit contrarian and not having access to Cawl is fine with me. I never liked named characters. Right now FW will be the same as <regiment> for Guard. A way to limit buffs in a fluffy way.

I can now start pricing out my current forces and see what I need to add. The omnispex looks like a must take still. I only built one of my 6 Onagers and left the Cognis manipulator off it, just as well it seems. The big hole I see is going to be CC. I have 60 Skitarii, 6 Onagers, and 3 chicken walkers. The Onagers will be magnetized and I assume that I'll go with the CC build for the walkers. I did see someone magnetize those for bot CC and shooting but it required leaving the gun shield on at all times since there was no good way to make it removable. Never having played in 7th and Ad Mech didn't exist the last time I played is making this interesting. I'm just slapping stuff together, lol.

Yea, on the Dunecrawlers... are the Manipulators just for show now? Think we will see rules in a Codex?

The Balistarii look simply fantastic. I think I am going to make like... 7.

Fulgurite electro priests are gonna be crazy good in melee

Cheap too

So what are the OP units I should order now, IYO. Electro-priests and Kastelans with their 18 fn shots while standing PER ROBOT?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Fulgurite electro priests are gonna be crazy good in melee

Cheap too

But they are still such hideous models... I don't know if I can do it.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Fulgurite electro priests are gonna be crazy good in melee

Cheap too

But they are still such hideous models... I don't know if I can do it.

Yea...they do look pretty horrible

I think Admech got overall weaker

No FNP
No Warlord Traits
No Relics
General points increase (which is a trend across all codexs)
No dunestrider rules
Weaker Canticles
No Doctrinas
Still no access to transports
Vastly weaker invul. saves across the board

At first glance it seems a little disappointing but Ill keep looking. As others have said im curious as to what the forgeworld keyword means.

Enron wrote:
I think Admech got overall weaker

No FNP - they got invul saves instead
No Warlord Traits - No one has warlord traits
No Relics - no one has relics
General points increase (which is a trend across all codexs) - No, some (elites for example) got a decrease
No dunestrider rules - High movement value to somewhat compensate and the units are cheaper
Weaker Canticles - They are removing broken things from them game/making them weaker. 2+ cover is broken
No Doctrinas - They got Canticles instead which they didn't have
Still no access to transports - So nothing changed
Vastly weaker invul. saves across the board What? Invul saves are ALL better

At first glance it seems a little disappointing but Ill keep looking. As others have said im curious as to what the forgeworld keyword means.

Dude... Come on....

@ rvd1ofakind

I disagree. an invul save is taken in place of an armor save. not in addition to it. with the plethora of weapons that subtract from armor we are mostly looking at 5-6+ saves
Dunestrider helped in Movement/run and or charge. We lose 1" in the movement phase 3" In the Advance phase and 2" in the charge phase. Sure they compensated for being cheaper but we are also far less survivable now.
I concede that no one has Relics or WL traits
I don't think canticles were that bad. It was the strength of the army. The new ones are in my opinion just meh
Invul saves are worse. Prior to this squad leaders/magos' could at least purchase conversion fields/stasis fields and of course refractor fields. Which again added a bit to the survivability

Just my opinions though.

Enron wrote:
I think Admech got overall weaker

No FNP
No Warlord Traits
No Relics
General points increase (which is a trend across all codexs)

This is true for everyone.

Wanted to start a Mechanicus army so looked at the 8th edition mechanicus rules first.

As a competitive tournament player I first noticed the potential of the Kastelan robots.

spearhead detachment

HQ: Tech priest dominus (basic wargear)

ELITE: cybernetica datasmith, powerfist + gamma pistol
ELITE: cybernetica datasmith, powerfist + gamma pistol

HEAVY SUPPORT: dunecrawler, Neutron laser
HEAVY SUPPORT: dunecrawler, Neutron laser
HEAVY SUPPORT: dunecrawler, Neutron laser

HEAVY SUPPORT: 4x Kastelan robots, 3x heavy phosphor blaster, 1x Incending combustor + Kastelan fists
HEAVY SUPPORT: 4x Kastelan robots, 3x heavy phosphor blaster, 1x Incending combustor + Kastelan fists
HEAVY SUPPORT: 3x Kastelan robots, 3x Incending combustor + Kastelan fists

Around 1900 points

- Got 4 stratagems to reroll dice for dunecrawler neutron laser.
- Tech priest gives reroll 1 to hit for all units within 6 inch and can repair vehicles.
- Datasmith can also repair and change robots protocol
- Dunecrawler neutron laser can take on big targets

Kastelan robots are great allround units! Shooty, tough, burny, clawy, reasonable fast.

Got no idea if its good but when I compare the robots with other units I like what i'am seeing. The protocol flexibility and being able to push them to a 2+/4+ save at the start of game makes them great. 3 robots with 3 heavy phosphor blaster got 27 shots and with the shooty protocol you could double that. Also for overwatch!

 Aaranis wrote:
The Vanguard look better than the Rangers this time, as the Assault weapons mean you can Advance and shoot with a malus of -1, they'll be able to get in range faster. The Radium Carbines looks more built towards killing big models now, but it's still nerfed, I can't wound ANY Toughness now, and you won't be able to clear up a unit faster due to the radioactive additional wounds.

Rad carbines still deal a additional wound on a 6 and now everything can wound any toughness on a 6

Enron wrote:
@ rvd1ofakind

I disagree. an invul save is taken in place of an armor save. not in addition to it. with the plethora of weapons that subtract from armor we are mostly looking at 5-6+ saves
Dunestrider helped in Movement/run and or charge. We lose 1" in the movement phase 3" In the Advance phase and 2" in the charge phase. Sure they compensated for being cheaper but we are also far less survivable now.
I concede that no one has Relics or WL traits
I don't think canticles were that bad. It was the strength of the army. The new ones are in my opinion just meh
Invul saves are worse. Prior to this squad leaders/magos' could at least purchase conversion fields/stasis fields and of course refractor fields. Which again added a bit to the survivability

Just my opinions though.

Invul replaced feel no pain (aka nothing since everything is 2x your 3 toughess)
Canticles still serve their role in protecting you from plasma(even better now) and the others were OP/unused so they got rid/changed them. And simplified by removing the unit count.
Kataphrons and Ironstriders got invulnerable saves without losing Feel no lol as I call it.
Also... you bought... fields on squad leaders... ok...
We're weaker? Damn right
Did pretty much everyone get weaker? Damn right
Were we hit worse than most? Hell no

shogun wrote:

Wanted to start a Mechanicus army so looked at the 8th edition mechanicus rules first.

As a competitive tournament player I first noticed the potential of the Kastelan robots.

spearhead detachment

HQ: Tech priest dominus (basic wargear)

ELITE: cybernetica datasmith, powerfist + gamma pistol
ELITE: cybernetica datasmith, powerfist + gamma pistol

HEAVY SUPPORT: dunecrawler, Neutron laser
HEAVY SUPPORT: dunecrawler, Neutron laser
HEAVY SUPPORT: dunecrawler, Neutron laser

HEAVY SUPPORT: 4x Kastelan robots, 3x heavy phosphor blaster, 1x Incending combustor + Kastelan fists
HEAVY SUPPORT: 4x Kastelan robots, 3x heavy phosphor blaster, 1x Incending combustor + Kastelan fists
HEAVY SUPPORT: 3x Kastelan robots, 3x Incending combustor + Kastelan fists

Around 1900 points

- Got 4 stratagems to reroll dice for dunecrawler neutron laser.
- Tech priest gives reroll 1 to hit for all units within 6 inch and can repair vehicles.
- Datasmith can also repair and change robots protocol
- Dunecrawler neutron laser can take on big targets

Kastelan robots are great allround units! Shooty, tough, burny, clawy, reasonable fast.

Got no idea if its good but when I compare the robots with other units I like what i'am seeing. The protocol flexibility and being able to push them to a 2+/4+ save at the start of game makes them great. 3 robots with 3 heavy phosphor blaster got 27 shots and with the shooty protocol you could double that. Also for overwatch!

Boring list though. Definitely has me looking back over the Kastelans though. I might need to buy another set!

shogun wrote:

Wanted to start a Mechanicus army so looked at the 8th edition mechanicus rules first.

As a competitive tournament player I first noticed the potential of the Kastelan robots.

spearhead detachment

HQ: Tech priest dominus (basic wargear)

ELITE: cybernetica datasmith, powerfist + gamma pistol
ELITE: cybernetica datasmith, powerfist + gamma pistol

HEAVY SUPPORT: dunecrawler, Neutron laser
HEAVY SUPPORT: dunecrawler, Neutron laser
HEAVY SUPPORT: dunecrawler, Neutron laser

HEAVY SUPPORT: 4x Kastelan robots, 3x heavy phosphor blaster, 1x Incending combustor + Kastelan fists
HEAVY SUPPORT: 4x Kastelan robots, 3x heavy phosphor blaster, 1x Incending combustor + Kastelan fists
HEAVY SUPPORT: 3x Kastelan robots, 3x Incending combustor + Kastelan fists

Around 1900 points

- Got 4 stratagems to reroll dice for dunecrawler neutron laser.
- Tech priest gives reroll 1 to hit for all units within 6 inch and can repair vehicles.
- Datasmith can also repair and change robots protocol
- Dunecrawler neutron laser can take on big targets

Kastelan robots are great allround units! Shooty, tough, burny, clawy, reasonable fast.

Got no idea if its good but when I compare the robots with other units I like what i'am seeing. The protocol flexibility and being able to push them to a 2+/4+ save at the start of game makes them great. 3 robots with 3 heavy phosphor blaster got 27 shots and with the shooty protocol you could double that. Also for overwatch!

Aren't most objectives able to be captured only by Infantry ? I didn't look at the new missions yet so I may be wrong but if not you'll lack some capping power.

Ir0njack wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
The Vanguard look better than the Rangers this time, as the Assault weapons mean you can Advance and shoot with a malus of -1, they'll be able to get in range faster. The Radium Carbines looks more built towards killing big models now, but it's still nerfed, I can't wound ANY Toughness now, and you won't be able to clear up a unit faster due to the radioactive additional wounds.

Rad carbines still deal a additional wound on a 6 and now everything can wound any toughness on a 6

Yeah forgot that you're right, still it's more for dealing with high Toughness than huge hordes now. Here in V7 on 30 shots I could have 8-10 casualties sometimes.

 Aaranis wrote:
[
Aren't most objectives able to be captured only by Infantry ? I didn't look at the new missions yet so I may be wrong but if not you'll lack some capping power.

Skimming the Eternal War missions, it just says "more models within". Nothing about specific battlefield roles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, here is a pre-Codex list I am kicking about. Obviously, when we get our Codex it will shift as I will either go for Metalica (meaning no Cawl) or we wind up with new detachments to use and whatnot (maybe Relics!).

Spearhead Detachment
4 CP

HQ:
Belisarius Cawl
[250]

Troops:
(10) Skitarii Vanguard
3x Transuranic Arquebus, Omnispex
[182]

Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]

Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Fist
[52]

Fast Attack:
(2) Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[190]

(2) Ironstrider Balistarii
Twin Cognis Lacannon
[190]

Heavy:
(3) Kastelan Robot
Incendine Combustors, Kastelan Fists
2x Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[341]

(3) Kastelan Robot
Incendine Combustors, Kastelan Fists
2x Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[341]

Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Smoke Launchers
[130]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser, Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Smoke Launchers
[135]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser, Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Smoke Launchers
[135]

[1998]

It is a little boring, in that I don't have a few units I like. But it looks fun and decently competitive (I think?). Cawl camps with shooty units (Vanguard, Neutrons). The Arquebus are there to pick off characters (in theory). It has d3 damage or a mortal wound, which seems useful... though who knows! They are pricey.

Quad Balistarii should light up armor and big stuff. Neutrons as well. Icarus is there for that rando flyer, but can also lob a ton of shots at -1 BS. Robots light up (lol) infantry under Protector Protocols, meaning 36 shots from the Phosphor 'bots and the Fist bot is there to cover Melee needs. Aegis is nice too, obviously, when they are getting into position.

That is it so far for my brainstorming. It is a 2k list because from what I can tell, that will be the new normal.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

shogun wrote:

Wanted to start a Mechanicus army so looked at the 8th edition mechanicus rules first.

As a competitive tournament player I first noticed the potential of the Kastelan robots.

spearhead detachment

HQ: Tech priest dominus (basic wargear)

ELITE: cybernetica datasmith, powerfist + gamma pistol
ELITE: cybernetica datasmith, powerfist + gamma pistol

HEAVY SUPPORT: dunecrawler, Neutron laser
HEAVY SUPPORT: dunecrawler, Neutron laser
HEAVY SUPPORT: dunecrawler, Neutron laser

HEAVY SUPPORT: 4x Kastelan robots, 3x heavy phosphor blaster, 1x Incending combustor + Kastelan fists
HEAVY SUPPORT: 4x Kastelan robots, 3x heavy phosphor blaster, 1x Incending combustor + Kastelan fists
HEAVY SUPPORT: 3x Kastelan robots, 3x Incending combustor + Kastelan fists

Around 1900 points

- Got 4 stratagems to reroll dice for dunecrawler neutron laser.
- Tech priest gives reroll 1 to hit for all units within 6 inch and can repair vehicles.
- Datasmith can also repair and change robots protocol
- Dunecrawler neutron laser can take on big targets

Kastelan robots are great allround units! Shooty, tough, burny, clawy, reasonable fast.

Got no idea if its good but when I compare the robots with other units I like what i'am seeing. The protocol flexibility and being able to push them to a 2+/4+ save at the start of game makes them great. 3 robots with 3 heavy phosphor blaster got 27 shots and with the shooty protocol you could double that. Also for overwatch!

Boring list though. Definitely has me looking back over the Kastelans though. I might need to buy another set!

BORING LIST!? YOU'RE BORING!.... Sorry that escalated really quickly.... Didn't mean it like that. A dark side of me took over for a moment.... back on topic...

I think that Mechanicus got to fragile close combat units compared to other armies. Don't like walking across the board when other armies are great at deploying/deep strike/cult ambush/infiltrate with 9 inch from the start. Walking with 10 skitarii rangers forward shooting some rapid fire shots, are not that different then a kastelan robot. The kastelan robots stil pack a punch but I don't know if the can hold their own against tau and astra m.

Can someone confirm that Dunecrawlers can't take their close combat weapon anymore? I didn't see it anywhere and I'm building some as we speak.

Guys, It might be a good idea to start a new thread for 8th edition stuff and let this one die. It is getting a tad unwieldy, and in the future it will be annoying for people to try to find the page where the discussion on current edition tactics stars.

changemod wrote:
Can someone confirm that Dunecrawlers can't take their close combat weapon anymore? I didn't see it anywhere and I'm building some as we speak.

The Manipulators and Data Spikes do seem to be gone yes.

changemod wrote:
Can someone confirm that Dunecrawlers can't take their close combat weapon anymore? I didn't see it anywhere and I'm building some as we speak.

Yes I confirm they are no more, they instead gain a flat 3 attacks stat at full Wounds. You can still add them for the aesthetics, no one is going to tell it's a CC weapon anyway


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Guys, It might be a good idea to start a new thread for 8th edition stuff and let this one die. It is getting a tad unwieldy, and in the future it will be annoying for people to try to find the page where the discussion on current edition tactics stars.

Yes good idea, leave this one for the people who are still going to play 7th and let us start a new one with all the info we already have

I shall make it so. Good call.

Oops. I should post in the new thread.