Exergy wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Picked up my first squad of Skitarii today.
Allied them with my Tau and played a game against GK. My Ranger squad's Arquebus got a kill a turn, and my Vanguard took 2 hull points off a Land Raider before being AssCanned.

How many Arquebus's and were the precision kills?

I would expect 3 of them to kill a meq a turn, but that isnt terribly point efficient and if you dont get to pick the model removed it's very lackluster.

1 Arquebus, 0 precision kills. However, due to my opponent's positioning, it killed 3 PA GKs with Hammers and took a hull point off a Land Raider.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I played a proxy game recently against a local ultra-marine player, and it went kinda pearshaped for me. The slowness of skitarii really hurts for footslogging units, and a single ironclad dread was the worst unit to fight against. Dropped down and roasted my warlord squad!


I do think that skitarii need some transports.

I feel like the Plasma Obliterator was meant to house the Vanguard Warlord Squad. The preferred enemy keeps the big gun safe and the fortificaion protects the warlord. Add an escape hatch and they can hop out and grab an objective in the last turn. Not bad.

 Dramagod2 wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I played a proxy game recently against a local ultra-marine player, and it went kinda pearshaped for me. The slowness of skitarii really hurts for footslogging units, and a single ironclad dread was the worst unit to fight against. Dropped down and roasted my warlord squad!


I do think that skitarii need some transports.

I feel like the Plasma Obliterator was meant to house the Vanguard Warlord Squad. The preferred enemy keeps the big gun safe and the fortificaion protects the warlord. Add an escape hatch and they can hop out and grab an objective in the last turn. Not bad.

Thats an idea too. well we still have the rules and such... at least.


Would the same work in a battlecannon redebout?

Just keep in mind that Pens on a Building can be devastating to Infantry inside. Even a roll of 3 causes D6 S6 hits.

DaPino wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I played a proxy game recently against a local ultra-marine player, and it went kinda pearshaped for me. The slowness of skitarii really hurts for footslogging units, and a single ironclad dread was the worst unit to fight against. Dropped down and roasted my warlord squad!


I do think that skitarii need some transports.

You do know Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, Dragoons, Balistarii and Onagers add 3" to their move, run and charge, right?

The only unit that suffers from being slow are vanguards.

Onagers don't have Dunestrider, they only move 6".

Yes, instead of Dunestrider, Onagers ignore difficult and dangerous terrain, but can't Run.

Yep, but they have the range, so you are not as worried about it.

nudibranch wrote:

DaPino wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I played a proxy game recently against a local ultra-marine player, and it went kinda pearshaped for me. The slowness of skitarii really hurts for footslogging units, and a single ironclad dread was the worst unit to fight against. Dropped down and roasted my warlord squad!


I do think that skitarii need some transports.

You do know Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, Dragoons, Balistarii and Onagers add 3" to their move, run and charge, right?

The only unit that suffers from being slow are vanguards.

Onagers don't have Dunestrider, they only move 6".

My bad, but the point still stands. Most units that need it have decent mobility, even without transports.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Just keep in mind that Pens on a Building can be devastating to Infantry inside. Even a roll of 3 causes D6 S6 hits.

This is very true, but its still better than the alternatives: being out in the open, in a transport, or in cover, Luckily AV14 all around isnt that easy to pen. Add a void shield and that can help as well. The vanguard warlord is just so squishy theres not really anywhere you can put him that he isn't going to be in some kind of danger. I just feel like a fortification is the best option.

DaPino wrote:

nudibranch wrote:

DaPino wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I played a proxy game recently against a local ultra-marine player, and it went kinda pearshaped for me. The slowness of skitarii really hurts for footslogging units, and a single ironclad dread was the worst unit to fight against. Dropped down and roasted my warlord squad!


I do think that skitarii need some transports.

You do know Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, Dragoons, Balistarii and Onagers add 3" to their move, run and charge, right?

The only unit that suffers from being slow are vanguards.

Onagers don't have Dunestrider, they only move 6".

My bad, but the point still stands. Most units that need it have decent mobility, even without transports.

Yea, I know. it just seems that vanguard are fairly slow, and that may be the bulk of my future armies. the transports may protect against most anti-infantry fire (until a lascannon blows it up or something. I play space marines so I know how it goes ) For now I may just go unbound and use a mechanized army list.

I'm actually thinking about getting an inquisitor for a warlord, and putting him in a heavy weapon servitor squad. do you know how many plasma cannons you can get? anyone? =D

 Dramagod2 wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
Just keep in mind that Pens on a Building can be devastating to Infantry inside. Even a roll of 3 causes D6 S6 hits.

This is very true, but its still better than the alternatives: being out in the open, in a transport, or in cover, Luckily AV14 all around isnt that easy to pen. Add a void shield and that can help as well. The vanguard warlord is just so squishy theres not really anywhere you can put him that he isn't going to be in some kind of danger. I just feel like a fortification is the best option.

With Eldar getting destroyer weapons on everything this becomes a lot less true.

Still one cannot really try and play against Eldar competitively.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

DaPino wrote:

nudibranch wrote:

DaPino wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I played a proxy game recently against a local ultra-marine player, and it went kinda pearshaped for me. The slowness of skitarii really hurts for footslogging units, and a single ironclad dread was the worst unit to fight against. Dropped down and roasted my warlord squad!


I do think that skitarii need some transports.

You do know Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, Dragoons, Balistarii and Onagers add 3" to their move, run and charge, right?

The only unit that suffers from being slow are vanguards.

Onagers don't have Dunestrider, they only move 6".

My bad, but the point still stands. Most units that need it have decent mobility, even without transports.

Yea, I know. it just seems that vanguard are fairly slow, and that may be the bulk of my future armies. the transports may protect against most anti-infantry fire (until a lascannon blows it up or something. I play space marines so I know how it goes ) For now I may just go unbound and use a mechanized army list.

I'm actually thinking about getting an inquisitor for a warlord, and putting him in a heavy weapon servitor squad. do you know how many plasma cannons you can get? anyone? =D

In a inquisition warband you can get a max of 3 heavy weapons

Super Newb wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

DaPino wrote:

nudibranch wrote:

DaPino wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I played a proxy game recently against a local ultra-marine player, and it went kinda pearshaped for me. The slowness of skitarii really hurts for footslogging units, and a single ironclad dread was the worst unit to fight against. Dropped down and roasted my warlord squad!


I do think that skitarii need some transports.

You do know Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, Dragoons, Balistarii and Onagers add 3" to their move, run and charge, right?

The only unit that suffers from being slow are vanguards.

Onagers don't have Dunestrider, they only move 6".

My bad, but the point still stands. Most units that need it have decent mobility, even without transports.

Yea, I know. it just seems that vanguard are fairly slow, and that may be the bulk of my future armies. the transports may protect against most anti-infantry fire (until a lascannon blows it up or something. I play space marines so I know how it goes ) For now I may just go unbound and use a mechanized army list.

I'm actually thinking about getting an inquisitor for a warlord, and putting him in a heavy weapon servitor squad. do you know how many plasma cannons you can get? anyone? =D

In a inquisition warband you can get a max of 3 heavy weapons

oh that few? well there goes some hype >.< still it would be fairly cool and a nice way to add some psychic powers to a list. Or a land raider

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that special weapons on Rangers just flat out impede them.

Arc rifle and calivers are too short-ranged for them (rhey dit vanguard better) and Aqueribus' are just too damn expensive to be worth their points.

DaPino wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that special weapons on Rangers just flat out impede them.

Arc rifle and calivers are too short-ranged for them (rhey dit vanguard better) and Aqueribus' are just too damn expensive to be worth their points.

I'm having a hard time adding any rangers and am planning an all Vanguard army so far. Vanguard with arc rifles. Plasma cavaliers are great, but for 3 of them I can have another spider bot and use the cheap vanguard for the weight of fire.

Right now I'm trying to figure out some good delivery methods. Drop pods from normal space marines maybe?

DaPino wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that special weapons on Rangers just flat out impede them.

Arc rifle and calivers are too short-ranged for them (rhey dit vanguard better) and Aqueribus' are just too damn expensive to be worth their points.

Honestly, I don't think they're too bad for the points. I always have a squad sitting on my backfield objective, and they are a nice deterrant for non-TEQs entering their sight line. A Tyranid, SM, or DEldar player worrying about essentially auto-losing wounds on a MC, MEQ or light vehicle if it enters a certain area on the board is fairly powerful.

It's hard to pass up on vanguard being cheaper and in many cases better. While I am a fan of the precision shots I just see the vanguard abilities fitting into my list much better

 Swara wrote:

DaPino wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that special weapons on Rangers just flat out impede them.

Arc rifle and calivers are too short-ranged for them (rhey dit vanguard better) and Aqueribus' are just too damn expensive to be worth their points.

I'm having a hard time adding any rangers and am planning an all Vanguard army so far. Vanguard with arc rifles. Plasma cavaliers are great, but for 3 of them I can have another spider bot and use the cheap vanguard for the weight of fire.

Right now I'm trying to figure out some good delivery methods. Drop pods from normal space marines maybe?

You would not be able to use normal space marine drop pods. They are dedicated transports. You need space wolves or blood angels as their pods are fast attack choices.

Personally, my Skitarii are backing up my armored battle company. Putting the vangaurd in a vendetta to transport them.

Wish I had some open top transports.
Here's for hoping for a even bigger spider tank in admech.

Yea I feel we missed out for some awesome transports, a 6 inch scout is nice and all but I would like a same-faction metal box to put my guys in.

GKs FA options work real well as well.
What I see from Skit's is the sheer amount of MSU they can bring. Man, it reminds me of my Tyranids.
Here's a really funny list I made up as a joke.
Let me know what you think, hahaha.
Sure each individual unit is pretty fragile... but there are so many...
And their doctrines help BOTH sides (dragoons vs ballistarii) so much, it seems like a fun list.


1500 pts ----------------------------------------

Nemesis Strike Force
---------------------------
HQ -
* Librarian; ML3, Hammer [140]

Troops -
* Terminator Squad; x1 Hammer, x1 Psycannon [195]

Fast Attack -
* Rhino; extra armor [45]
* Rhino; extra armor [45]

Heavy Support -
* Nemesis Dreadknight; GS, H-Psycannon, PT [205]
* Nemesis Dreadknight; GS, H-Psycannon, PT [205]

Skitarii Maniple
--------------------------
Troops -
* Vanguard - 5 man; 2 Arc Rifles, 1 Omnispex [95]
* Vanguard - 5 man; 2 Arc Rifles, 1 Omnispex [95]

Fast Attack -
*Dragoon; Taser [45]
*Dragoon; Taser [45]

Heavy Support - (separate squads)
* Ironstrider Ballistarii; Cognis Autocannon [55]
* Ironstrider Ballistarii; Cognis Autocannon [55]
* Ironstrider Ballistarii; Cognis Autocannon [55]

------------------------

Formation
------------------------
Ironstrider Cavaliers [145]
*Dragoon; Taser [45]
*Dragoon; Taser [45]
* Ironstrider Ballistarii; Cognis Autocannon [55]


Fortification
---------------
Void Shield Generator
- x2 Projected Void Shields [75]

I think rhinos would serve the skitarii well. 5 mans with two specials and two fire points. Once the wave serpent changes over I think it will offer a reasonable and reliable form of protection. Who knows we might use smoke launchers again!!

 Swara wrote:
I'm having a hard time adding any rangers and am planning an all Vanguard army so far. Vanguard with arc rifles.

Rangers I think would be ok sitting on an objective. Maybe a ten man squad with NO specials. Or maybe a ten man squad with at most two arc rifles. Anything other than that and I feel like points are wasted. The Vanguard are cheaper and if they are in range their stock guns are better. And of course if Vanguard have Arc Rifles they'll actually end up in rapid fire range, whereas the Rangers probably would not.

Plasma cavaliers are great, but for 3 of them I can have another spider bot and use the cheap vanguard for the weight of fire.

Yes, their plasma is expensive but it can be worth it. 9 plasma shots coming out of a drop pod at BS 7 is quite nice indeed. That can really put the hurt on or outright kill one of the enemy's big scary things. Of course if your opponent is doing MSU or spamming troops then your expensive squad may not make its points back. But if they can kill a dreadknight or something even scarier the turn they drop then that's awesome...

I would like to point out that if you play on terrain-heavy/-dense boards (as in Cities of Death dense), then Rangers might actually be generally better than Vanguard, thanks to Move Through Cover.

I would also like to point out that Rangers are Ap 4, and can wreck most non-space marine armies when in range. Seriously, denying units like necrons one of their saves can be big!

I would also like to point out that the Ranger heads are 1000x better than the Vanguard heads. Lol.

Super Newb wrote:
I would also like to point out that the Ranger heads are 1000x better than the Vanguard heads. Lol.

They look a bit cartoony to me. I like the crusader helmets of the Vanguards.

I did some research and some thinking........

I feel like the new vindicare assasin outshines the onagar with the neutron laser.
I could be wrong... but for 150pts the vindicare gets a 4++ (yeah i know T4...)
but has a 72" range.
And also has a number of nifty ammunition rules (built in precision shots automatically)

Personally, I think the Onagar is well priced alone. But the problem is is when people get sucked into paying a ridiculous amount of points to get a 4++ for the squad.
I haven't play tested it, but I can't see it being all that devastating.

The vindicare isn't really any different to how he was. The onager has a blast weapon. The vindicare is killing 1 dude a turn, if you're lucky, depending on the target.

Against TEQs i'd have the onager, against light skimmers i'd have the vindicare, against T5 multi wound models? Onager, against a squad of marines in cover? Vindicare.

They are 2 different units with massivley different roles.

For the most part Str10 AP1 blast > ap2 sniper ignores cover (precision shot)

 Verviedi wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
I would also like to point out that the Ranger heads are 1000x better than the Vanguard heads. Lol.

They look a bit cartoony to me. I like the crusader helmets of the Vanguards.

Your opinion is of course wrong and my subjective opinion is correct.

The vindicare can do D3 wounds to a target.
One of the special ammunition rules its got.
Also a much easier model to hide out of LOS and zone in on a target.

Vindicare wounds on a 4+, Onager on a 2+. Vindicare wounds don't carry to the squad, Onager does. If you're referring to anti-vehicle, you've got something. But against infantry, Onager wins.

I dunno, I just don't see what everyone else is seeing with the Onagar (I'm probably spelling this wrong).

I think having as many Ballistariis as I possibly can, as separate units, would be more competitive.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm just trying to figure out the best options Skits have to offer.... just don't think the Onagar is one of them.

 UnrealTempest wrote:
I dunno, I just don't see what everyone else is seeing with the Onagar (I'm probably spelling this wrong).

I think having as many Ballistariis as I possibly can, as separate units, would be more competitive.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm just trying to figure out the best options Skits have to offer.... just don't think the Onagar is one of them.

The Ballistariis are ok IMO, but they are 75 pts for a twin linked lascannon they are a bit expensive for how fragile they are. The Ballistarii are faster for sure, but for 45 pts more I add an extra hull point, and extra armor on front and side, st 9 ap2 to a str 10 ap1 small blast, 2 heavy stubbers, and the ability to ignore dangerous terrain as well as a 6+ invul, but on a slower frame. All in all I like both of them and they have their place.

I'll be running 4 spiders - 3 with neutron lasers and 1 with with the icuras array - all seperate units. The 4++ is fine, but I think i'd like to spread the threat out more.
All of them with the extra stubber - because what's not to like about a 5pt cognis stubber.
those 4 for my heavy slot will be 470 pts.

Also, are the rhinos fast in a blood angels codex? I haven't looked at that codex for a long time. I agree on them being fairly awesome for a 5 man of vanguard with 2 arc rifles.

470 pts is a bunch for only 4 - S10 small blasts :/ IMO.

On another note,
Outflanking a large squad of the Ballistarii wouldn't be such a bad idea (the formation, I can't remember the name).
Smack up some side armor, or push a squad off an objective.
They have acute senses so they'll be able to re-roll what side the come onto the table.... something that is pretty handy.

I'm so used to playing with my MSU lictorshame lists that I have such a hard building lists to counter that AND knights.... because I hate knights.

 UnrealTempest wrote:
470 pts is a bunch for only 4 - S10 small blasts :/ IMO.

On another note,
Outflanking a large squad of the Ballistarii wouldn't be such a bad idea (the formation, I can't remember the name).
Smack up some side armor, or push a squad off an objective.
They have acute senses so they'll be able to re-roll what side the come onto the table.... something that is pretty handy.

I'm so used to playing with my MSU lictorshame lists that I have such a hard building lists to counter that AND knights.... because I hate knights.

The Ironstrider Cavaliers formation. I like it and was looking at it when I first got the book. They also reroll failed wound rolls when firing at a chosen IC and unit while being able to screen the unit with the Dragoons.
The issue I ran into with it was the cost of the actual models.

You mean like physical money?
Yeah, gotta pay to play hahaha.
But it's fun.
I'm building my formation right now. Should have a batrep up in the next week or so with my GK's and Skit allies

Don't forget the neutron laser is concussive, allowing them to shoot, say, a Wraithknight or an Imperial Knight, then you can charge it and be basically guaranteed to strike first.

3 Onagers with 3 Neutron Lasers and the Cognis Fabricator claw thingies could eat up a Wraithknight if it is dumb enough to get charged.

EDIT:
Also, I would like to say 2 things:

Armored battlegroup with Skitarii is hilarious.

I am building a Killclade because I think the models are cool. Any advice? So far I have found the infiltrators to be incredibly useful, while the Ruststalkers are mostly a big smokescreen that attracts so much firepower Turn 1 that it's not even funny, and if they're not dead, they hit like a truck.

Not that I have a big force yet (only a few boxes of Vanguard / Rangers) but I kind of feel like just making the army a shooty one. Turn 1 at BS 7, Turn 2 at BS 6, Turn 3 at BS5 sounds very nice indeed.

Of course that means no Ruststalkers or Infiltrators but I don't think that is a big deal.

I find infiltrators to be awesome. Placing them near a long range squad like say Devastators or Lootas can be crippling sometmes.

Other than that I say go for it.

I'll definitely be combining MSU skits with some GKs.
Even the Dragoons are good combat support -- not overly amazing, but they can get the job done.
The Bals are just so fast for autocannon support too for the pts cost.
Easy to claim those objectives.
Problem is they are paper thin, so a voidshield will definitely have to be included.

I think what I appreciate most about this army is how cleverly everything synergizes with each other. I like both the assault units and shooty units. One thing I have found the assault units MUST have in this army though is long range anti everything support. Specifically when facing down a tau gunline, or even just say a firebase cadre, you need to in some way incude a unit or 2 to at least widdle down the broadsides so your assault units dont get doubled-out-annihilated on the way in from shooting and overwatch. This is one area where I can see las-ballistas coming into play as they can redeploy quickly to threaten such units with armor penning double out shots.

Also, suprisingly this is a role the jezzails on dragoons fill nicely, as has been pointed out, a 6 to wound on a jezzail instakills a non cover save broadside.

Ironically, a ton of people have been talking about the new eldar changes, like the now GMC wraithknight, which oddly enough, most of the skitarii army counters. What with weapons that cause wounds regardless of toughnesss and all, so much for the GMC rule.

I also have a deep dislike for knights, and once again, skitarii give knights enormous issues. Even in CC, as long as you have some nearby infiltrators, knights may not even be able to strike back against your dragoons or ruststalkers. Pretty neat!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also, really REALLY don't know what to choose on vanguard. I like their special weapon choices, but they are also quite effective just stock. X3 Scouting plasma cavaliers in my opponents face turn 1 sounds so fun, but 90 points is a large tax since that literally doubles the cost of the squad.

 gameandwatch wrote:
I also, really REALLY don't know what to choose on vanguard. I like their special weapon choices, but they are also quite effective just stock. X3 Scouting plasma cavaliers in my opponents face turn 1 sounds so fun, but 90 points is a large tax since that literally doubles the cost of the squad.

Almost literally. Goes from 100 points to 190.

Plasma is very expensive but I think it has limited use in an army. Like maybe in a squad or two at the absolute most. Why not have 3 arc rifles for 45 points in most of your Vanguard Squads? That'll do a number on pretty much any vehicle (including an Imperial Knight).

Super Newb wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
I also, really REALLY don't know what to choose on vanguard. I like their special weapon choices, but they are also quite effective just stock. X3 Scouting plasma cavaliers in my opponents face turn 1 sounds so fun, but 90 points is a large tax since that literally doubles the cost of the squad.

Almost literally. Goes from 100 points to 190.

Plasma is very expensive but I think it has limited use in an army. Like maybe in a squad or two at the absolute most. Why not have 3 arc rifles for 45 points in most of your Vanguard Squads? That'll do a number on pretty much any vehicle (including an Imperial Knight).

Sorry, forgot about the sergeant tax, was just thinking of the core cost of 9 points.

Oh Im definitely thinking of just going double or tripple arc rifle, the ap2 18" 9 shots is nice, especially when considering the BS increase doctrines, but 30 points per gun... is just SO expensive. I also look at their delivery and survivability and weep, as Im a purest (not a huge allies fan) and they have no real delivery system, and arent very resilient.

But that is the thing, vanguard stock are incredible non-vehicle killers. I mean the rad rule even bi-passes gargantuan monstrous creature rule, where as when you start giving them special weapons, they lose effectiveness against multiwound models and high toughness models. Its hard to tell what is best, keep them cheap and focused, or give them stuff and multitask.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The more i think about it too, the more i feel anti-air onagers is the way to go. Hive tyrants are a huge issue for this army, bypassing multiwound fnp and a danger to literaaly every unit, i dont see how you cant use them that way.

 gameandwatch wrote:
Oh Im definitely thinking of just going double or tripple arc rifle, the ap2 18" 9 shots is nice, especially when considering the BS increase doctrines, but 30 points per gun... is just SO expensive. I also look at their delivery and survivability and weep, as Im a purest (not a huge allies fan) and they have no real delivery system, and arent very resilient.

But that is the thing, vanguard stock are incredible non-vehicle killers. I mean the rad rule even bi-passes gargantuan monstrous creature rule, where as when you start giving them special weapons, they lose effectiveness against multiwound models and high toughness models. Its hard to tell what is best, keep them cheap and focused, or give them stuff and multitask.

Guess it all depends on how the rest of your army is kitted out. And what the meta is. I feel like there will be times where it would be better to take out a vehicle, or where a vehicle is the only target in range of your Vanguard squad. Having 2, or 3 arc rifles in the squad definitely does increase the 10 man squad cost a good amount (30-45%), but it's freaking ranged haywire - seems like the best way in the whole codex to take out vehicles

Finally finished my first squad. What I'm doing is buying a box, and building 2 Vanguard and a Ranger per box with each special weapon. After 3 boxes I'll be able to field a full-special squad. Currently buying to play the following list.

Vanguard x10 (155)
-3x Arc Rifle
-Arc Pistol

Rangers x10 (205)
-Warlord
-3x Arquebus
-Converterfield

Vanguard x10 (200)
-3x Caliver
-Omnsipex

Sicaran Infiltrators (180)
-TG/FB

Sicaran Ruststalkers (160)

Sydonian Dragoon (45)
-Radium Jezzail

Sydonian Dragoon (45)
-Radium Jezzail

Onager Dunecrawler (115)
-Neutron Laser

Total- 1105

I'm just not a fan of putting 10 man strong into a unit.
Thats 155pts with no means of mobility.
Personally, I will always be running a 5man squad of Vanguard with 2 arc rifles and an omnsipex for 95 pts.
I can throw them in a rhino or a razor.

There are just too many points spent on your troops that have no mobility :/

 UnrealTempest wrote:
I'm just not a fan of putting 10 man strong into a unit.
Thats 155pts with no means of mobility.
Personally, I will always be running a 5man squad of Vanguard with 2 arc rifles and an omnsipex for 95 pts.
I can throw them in a rhino or a razor.

There are just too many points spent on your troops that have no mobility :/

I'll most likely stick them in a Rhino. I just need a few BAngels now.

For me, I am thinking they need to either be specialist 5 man squads, or almost naked 10 man squads.

None of the special weapons worth taking really synergize with the units main guns(which are pretty good).

After watching a batrep yesterday from Frontline, I think an Omnispex should go on everything it can, that -1 cover for the entire unit shooting is just too good

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
After watching a batrep yesterday from Frontline, I think an Omnispex should go on everything it can, that -1 cover for the entire unit shooting is just too good

amen. + Onagers are crucial to have too - that skyfire output is sickening! they will go through serpants, hornets, flyrants, crones, talons etc.

Do Skitarii have access to any FW right now? within their CAD I mean?

Just to double-check; there's presently no way of getting allied Chimeras in the same way you can Rhinos, right?

At present there is not a way to get chimeras but I think if you looking for transports I think if you can get drop pods that is the way to go. Av 12 and cheap. With the low cost of skitsrii you don't need to be as mobile, you can fill the board with models. Omnispex is a must, especially in any unit with specials(since you are actually gonna negate a lot of inherent saves) and I would say for the rangers as well since the number of save 4+ units you are going to see keeps on going up.

No love even for the BA Fast Rhinos? The Skitarii are squishy, the Rhinos at least give them some form of protection. Going full on Glass Hammer can't be best way 100%.

 Wilson wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
After watching a batrep yesterday from Frontline, I think an Omnispex should go on everything it can, that -1 cover for the entire unit shooting is just too good

amen. + Onagers are crucial to have too - that skyfire output is sickening! they will go through serpants, hornets, flyrants, crones, talons etc.

Do Skitarii have access to any FW right now? within their CAD I mean?

Dont believe so, no LOW slot and no skitarii approved 30k units as far as I'm aware.

 Wilson wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
After watching a batrep yesterday from Frontline, I think an Omnispex should go on everything it can, that -1 cover for the entire unit shooting is just too good

amen. + Onagers are crucial to have too - that skyfire output is sickening! they will go through serpants, hornets, flyrants, crones, talons etc.

Do Skitarii have access to any FW right now? within their CAD I mean?

not yet, but it's a safe guess that FW's not going to sit back on their mechanium line now that the admech is a 40k army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:
For me, I am thinking they need to either be specialist 5 man squads, or almost naked 10 man squads.

None of the special weapons worth taking really synergize with the units main guns(which are pretty good).

actually they're pricy, but the plasma cavaliers synergize nicely with the rad carbines. yeah Rad Carbines are kinda low strength but their "wounds on 6, period" rule means the entire unit can open fire (and the range bands are the same) on just about any infantry target without nesscarily being wasted. this synergizes excellently. contrast this with the ever present "squad Melta" you see in many SM squads. where if you're shooting the melta at a tank, the bolters are proably wasted.

After careful consideration, I have determined the following:

TROOPS:
Vanguard are the best troop:
I know I know, rangers have some pretty cool stuff, but when it comes to general versatility and use, I don't think they hold up as well. First, they are more expensive. Second, none of the special weapons synergize with the unit. The only exception would be the arquebus, but even then it would make more sense to use the extreme range to keep the unit out of danger, which would mean you are only firing a maximum of 3 shots against most targets(since they would be sitting in the way back)

The vanguard instead synergize very well with most special weapons, with arc rifles being the best option. AP2 plasma is nice, but paying tripple the cost of one model is way too high a tax to make it useful. Normally I would say that anti vehicle, mixed in with anti infantry is bad, but considering the arc rifle is also S6, it completes both tasks fairly well. Also OMNISPECS EVERYTIME!

The passive toughness lowering is very situational, but has hilariously helped against both centurions and thunderwolves, allowing my S8 dragoons on the charge to double them out. SILLY!

ELITES:
Unfortunately, neither of these doods are fantastic, this section will more come to taste and personal preference than anything else.

Both unfortunately suffer from the same problem, T3 and cost.

They are both relatively fast, can take on many different types of targets (the ruststalkers more than the infiltrators) but even with a 4+ 6++ 5+++ and 2 wounds, against anything but standard infantry weapons, they will crumble. The rustalkers taken stock are one of the best jacks of all trades I have seen, they are fast, have assault grenades, can wound anything at any toughness, access to AP2, haywire for vehicles, etc. A very well rounded close combat unit that has no real defense for avoiding getting blown off the able aside from speed. Any S6 or higher, high volume of fire weapons, ie scatterlasers, high yield missile pods, autocannons, multilasers, etc will just decimate these guys. How T4 would have dramatically changed their effectveness, and likely justify their 30 point cost. Granted though, if this unit does make it to combat, holy crap can they dish out the pain. Not only can they very reliably kill knights, but they can also engage infantry, heavy infantry, MC and GMC equally. As said, the only problem is getting there...

Infiltrators...now, I LOVE these guys, their design/ look, the fact that they can pack hilarious uzis, and the tesla goad is actually pretty devastating to light infantry. These guys LEVEL hordes and blobs with impunity, with massed machine pistol fire followed by mass S5-6 hits in CC. They do have both stealth and infiltrate to get them into the fight better, and can be an amusing harass unit with the dunstrider rule. And MAN is their passive ability so mean. Shoe in for me, but many I believe will get different mileage out of these guys.

FAST:
THe one and only choice, dragoons... yes they are a bit squishy, but you can take lots of them, are priced like a terminator and are incredible as both ranged and melee platforms. In fact, choosing which platform has been my biggest debacle with this army. Their melee is fantastic, threatens so many targets and is hilarious when paired with both vanguard and infiltrators.

But most have overlooked their ranged output. Ironically, their ranged capability with jezzails plugs a lot of the holes that things like infiltrators and russtalkers face. Things like broadsides, or riptides, or jetbikes with scatter, centurions, even things like wraithknights, and any normal monstrous creature. 6 of these guys skittering around the board sounds like a really fun harass unit that on good rolls will deal devestating damage to multiwound models/units. Think, first turn throw on BS5+, shoot any target(since basically anything is in range with their speed) and laugh when you get one or more 6's throwing 2+ ap2 wounds on targets. having them with jezzails also makes using the serpentias more justified, as not only does it increase the chance of other units in your army charging, but they can lower the potential cover saves used when 6s are rolled with the jezzails.

In fact the only real issue with the jezzail dragoons is the lack of fast attack slots. I would love to have 2 units of both, but the only way this is achievable is with multiple cads or using the sub par formation.

Heavy support:
I really don't like the ballistas, I don't know why, but 55 points for an autocannon platform seems like a lot to me. I won't go too much in depth with them, as I don't exactly understand their place in the army. I would definitely like to hear others experience/ feelings about them!

Dunecrawler: Man, I really REALLY want to use these guys, but I am really not sure on a loadout. The anti-air option is the most expensive and stuck shooting at skimmers and flyers/ FMC, but it handles with devastating effect one of the armies greatest weaknesses which is flyrants. They are also able to do some damage to things like wave serpents, which is never a bad thing. I will likely always have a unit of 1-3 equipped wiht this option. The neutron laser is another story. I really REALLY want to like this weapon, 48" S10 AP1 Concussive, Blast is really fantastic, but is 115 points for a single blast and a S4 stubber really worth it? Im not sure, and have been wracking my brain to figure it out. Surprisingly many have overlooked the TL heavy phosphur blaster, which 3 TL S6 ap3 shots isn't bad, and with the phosphur rule, S6 makes it much easier to wound/ glance, making this rule more effective when used alongside other units. It is an interesting option for only 15 points, though would likely have been a more interesting one if it was 5 points cheaper.

Not sure of the usefulness of the beamer, seems chancy, idk maybe it can be good?

Anyways, this is what my research has found me

Ad much as the rule makes me want to squadron them I feel that the weapons push me in the other direction. Skydire you only really want 1 to 2 and you want to be able to hit multiple targets. Phospher you are taking for its buff, once again only really need one per unit. Neutron is only one I would consider in a squadron. I am thinking I might run them separate, give them one of each(maybe two of the skyfire ones and one phospher)

 gameandwatch wrote:

In fact the only real issue with the jezzail dragoons is the lack of fast attack slots. I would love to have 2 units of both, but the only way this is achievable is with multiple cads or using the sub par formation.

I think that Ironstrider formation is great and by itself compliments lots of other Imperial codices without paying for Skitarii troops. Its special rules are incredible. Just choosing which table edge they arrive, likely on turn one would be great, but adding in the other rules is awesome.

I much prefer the ranger heads, but i feel like there isn't enough respect being given for the humble rad-carbine - on a six to wound you get two automatic wounds and it's assault3! so ten guys put out 30 shots? for 100pts!?

Am i missing something here - or is that epic for the points?

 gameandwatch wrote:
After careful consideration, I have determined the following:

TROOPS:
Vanguard are the best troop:
I know I know, rangers have some pretty cool stuff, but when it comes to general versatility and use, I don't think they hold up as well. First, they are more expensive. Second, none of the special weapons synergize with the unit. The only exception would be the arquebus, but even then it would make more sense to use the extreme range to keep the unit out of danger, which would mean you are only firing a maximum of 3 shots against most targets(since they would be sitting in the way back)

The vanguard instead synergize very well with most special weapons, with arc rifles being the best option. AP2 plasma is nice, but paying tripple the cost of one model is way too high a tax to make it useful. Normally I would say that anti vehicle, mixed in with anti infantry is bad, but considering the arc rifle is also S6, it completes both tasks fairly well. Also OMNISPECS EVERYTIME!

The passive toughness lowering is very situational, but has hilariously helped against both centurions and thunderwolves, allowing my S8 dragoons on the charge to double them out. SILLY!

ELITES:
Unfortunately, neither of these doods are fantastic, this section will more come to taste and personal preference than anything else.

Both unfortunately suffer from the same problem, T3 and cost.

They are both relatively fast, can take on many different types of targets (the ruststalkers more than the infiltrators) but even with a 4+ 6++ 5+++ and 2 wounds, against anything but standard infantry weapons, they will crumble. The rustalkers taken stock are one of the best jacks of all trades I have seen, they are fast, have assault grenades, can wound anything at any toughness, access to AP2, haywire for vehicles, etc. A very well rounded close combat unit that has no real defense for avoiding getting blown off the able aside from speed. Any S6 or higher, high volume of fire weapons, ie scatterlasers, high yield missile pods, autocannons, multilasers, etc will just decimate these guys. How T4 would have dramatically changed their effectveness, and likely justify their 30 point cost. Granted though, if this unit does make it to combat, holy crap can they dish out the pain. Not only can they very reliably kill knights, but they can also engage infantry, heavy infantry, MC and GMC equally. As said, the only problem is getting there...

Infiltrators...now, I LOVE these guys, their design/ look, the fact that they can pack hilarious uzis, and the tesla goad is actually pretty devastating to light infantry. These guys LEVEL hordes and blobs with impunity, with massed machine pistol fire followed by mass S5-6 hits in CC. They do have both stealth and infiltrate to get them into the fight better, and can be an amusing harass unit with the dunstrider rule. And MAN is their passive ability so mean. Shoe in for me, but many I believe will get different mileage out of these guys.

FAST:
THe one and only choice, dragoons... yes they are a bit squishy, but you can take lots of them, are priced like a terminator and are incredible as both ranged and melee platforms. In fact, choosing which platform has been my biggest debacle with this army. Their melee is fantastic, threatens so many targets and is hilarious when paired with both vanguard and infiltrators.

But most have overlooked their ranged output. Ironically, their ranged capability with jezzails plugs a lot of the holes that things like infiltrators and russtalkers face. Things like broadsides, or riptides, or jetbikes with scatter, centurions, even things like wraithknights, and any normal monstrous creature. 6 of these guys skittering around the board sounds like a really fun harass unit that on good rolls will deal devestating damage to multiwound models/units. Think, first turn throw on BS5+, shoot any target(since basically anything is in range with their speed) and laugh when you get one or more 6's throwing 2+ ap2 wounds on targets. having them with jezzails also makes using the serpentias more justified, as not only does it increase the chance of other units in your army charging, but they can lower the potential cover saves used when 6s are rolled with the jezzails.

In fact the only real issue with the jezzail dragoons is the lack of fast attack slots. I would love to have 2 units of both, but the only way this is achievable is with multiple cads or using the sub par formation.

Heavy support:
I really don't like the ballistas, I don't know why, but 55 points for an autocannon platform seems like a lot to me. I won't go too much in depth with them, as I don't exactly understand their place in the army. I would definitely like to hear others experience/ feelings about them!

Dunecrawler: Man, I really REALLY want to use these guys, but I am really not sure on a loadout. The anti-air option is the most expensive and stuck shooting at skimmers and flyers/ FMC, but it handles with devastating effect one of the armies greatest weaknesses which is flyrants. They are also able to do some damage to things like wave serpents, which is never a bad thing. I will likely always have a unit of 1-3 equipped wiht this option. The neutron laser is another story. I really REALLY want to like this weapon, 48" S10 AP1 Concussive, Blast is really fantastic, but is 115 points for a single blast and a S4 stubber really worth it? Im not sure, and have been wracking my brain to figure it out. Surprisingly many have overlooked the TL heavy phosphur blaster, which 3 TL S6 ap3 shots isn't bad, and with the phosphur rule, S6 makes it much easier to wound/ glance, making this rule more effective when used alongside other units. It is an interesting option for only 15 points, though would likely have been a more interesting one if it was 5 points cheaper.

Not sure of the usefulness of the beamer, seems chancy, idk maybe it can be good?

Anyways, this is what my research has found me

Some good analysis here.

I've definitely found the vanguard better. Rangers are okay, but vanguard have got some excellent rules.

Infiltrators are badass and they combine really well with other characters who can tank for them (which is their only weakness). Ruststalkers i'm not sure of, haven't used much.

Dragoons are absolutely amazing indeed. I wish there was 3+ slots. Both weapons are great and I struggle to pick as well.

Autocannon ironstriders I have found okay actually. Not amazing but they can do a job for the cost.

The onagers are so expensive I really wish they were 25 points cheaper at least. The icaris is the only way to play them I've found.

The ironstrider formation is also good but you really need reserve manipulation i've found to get the benefit of it. Jezzails with bs7 and reroll to wound are amazing.

 SirDonlad wrote:
I much prefer the ranger heads, but i feel like there isn't enough respect being given for the humble rad-carbine - on a six to wound you get two automatic wounds and it's assault3! so ten guys put out 30 shots? for 100pts!?

Am i missing something here - or is that epic for the points?

Their stock gun is very nice indeed.

And I agree with you on the Ranger heads. Which is why my own Vanguard are being built with Ranger heads.

Put this together because I thought these armies sync well. Not sure if skitarii really bring enough to the list but I would love to see the models together.

1500 PTS
Skitarii

2 x 5 Rangers
- 2 Aquebus each
- Ominspex

2 x 5 Vanguard
- 2 Arc Rifles

3 x Onager Dunecrawlers
- 2 x Icarus Array
- 1 x Neutron laser and cognis heavy stubber

Nemesis Strike Force

Librarian
- level 3

5 x Terminators
- Psycannon, Hammer, Ward

2 x Nemesis Dreadknight
- Heavy Incinerator
- Greatsword
- Personal Teleporter

axisofentropy wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:

In fact the only real issue with the jezzail dragoons is the lack of fast attack slots. I would love to have 2 units of both, but the only way this is achievable is with multiple cads or using the sub par formation.

I think that Ironstrider formation is great and by itself compliments lots of other Imperial codices without paying for Skitarii troops. Its special rules are incredible. Just choosing which table edge they arrive, likely on turn one would be great, but adding in the other rules is awesome.

Let me explain my comment, the reason I feel it is sub par (on its own, not as allied) is for 2 reasons. One is deployement, yes they have acute senses so you will likely get your preferred table edge, but as they are HUGE by their bases alone, and can't tank shock, this actually means they could have very few entry options since they all arrive on the same side at the same time. The second reason is task, what task do you give the dragoons? Do you have them as assault units that could fail to arrive for a few turns? Or do you have them as shooting units with jezzails that could do first turn damage, but likely would do just as much if not more if they started on the board to guaranteed fire the first turn? As well, dragoons starting on the board almost guarantees a second turn charge with both scout and dunestrider, so why not just have them on the board?

In the same question, the ballistaris have 48" ranged weapons... why do they need to outflank? The only real value is to avoid damage if not going first, but they could also fail to arrive. The fact that you dont have a choice to reserve them is my BIGGEST problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to mention as a side note, that it makes me very sad that the only source of transonic weaponry is the ruststalkers, I love the look and backgrounds of these weapons, and want to use them, but I just don't know If I can justify using them...

The value of outflank comes from the name of the rule, flanking the enemy. Taking the enemy head on means in many cases, you are hitting front or side armor- the highest values. When your units come in from outflank, that task ought to be to hit an enemy's weakest point. This means- 1) taking out squishy buffing units like psykers, pathfinders, etc. 2) getting the rear armor angle of an enemy vehicle, artillery for example that might normally be out of reach for the rest of your army. 3) contest the opponents backfield, and therefore objectives that may be there, taking out any small objective camping squads such as cultists, guardsmen, rangers, and scouts.

Now said, this means that outflanking is situational. A person should not devote their entire army to the tactic, nor should they depend on it. It is simply more options one ought to consider.

 ultimentra wrote:
The value of outflank comes from the name of the rule, flanking the enemy. Taking the enemy head on means in many cases, you are hitting front or side armor- the highest values. When your units come in from outflank, that task ought to be to hit an enemy's weakest point. This means- 1) taking out squishy buffing units like psykers, pathfinders, etc. 2) getting the rear armor angle of an enemy vehicle, artillery for example that might normally be out of reach for the rest of your army. 3) contest the opponents backfield, and therefore objectives that may be there, taking out any small objective camping squads such as cultists, guardsmen, rangers, and scouts.

Now said, this means that outflanking is situational. A person should not devote their entire army to the tactic, nor should they depend on it. It is simply more options one ought to consider.

I understand the value of outflank, that is not what is being debated here. What is is that the formation mentioned gains no real value out of it. For dragoons or ballistaris to be effective, they need numbers, numbers dramatically increases their footprint, which then limits their entry options. And they also cannot move through enemy units so a smart player will simply deny one of the flanks to the player with this formation. I mean, I would. There is also the risk of the units being late. If they didn't have to arrive simultaniously on the same side, I would see more value in this formation. This would also allow tau players a free shot at them before they act, in the case of melee dragoons, this would afford them 2 chances to attack them before they act, 1 from intercept, 1 from normal shooting.

Best load out for infiltrators and rust stalkers?

Also, which unit do you Prefer?

Am i missing something with the cavaliers?

You make one reserve roll, but they dont all have to arrive on the same side, and considering you have 2/3 chance of the side you want, and a re-roll, finding the a place to arrive shouldn't be an issue, especially since they move 9"

 Wilson wrote:
Best load out for infiltrators and rust stalkers?

Also, which unit do you Prefer?

For Infiltrators, skip the Sword+Stubcarbine entirely. Yes, you get better range on your shooting and AP3 in combat, but the problem is that Infiltrators don't have assault grenades, and against MEQ they really will want to be striking simultaneously rather than last. This is especially true against, say, MEQ with Power Mauls- that Maul will be striking at S6/AP4, allowing it to deny 4+ armor and FNP, leaving the Infiltrators with their 6++ as their only defense.

Flechette Blaster+Taser Goad allows better anti-infantry shooting, actually, against T3/4 targets; an an example, against T3/5+, Stubcarbines kill 3-4 models, maybe 5 if you roll well. Flechette Blasters will actually kill 7-8 T3/5+ models, potentially wiping out most of a squad. Additionally Taser Goads make the Infiltrators S6 in combat. While they are still going to have to deal with not having assault grenades, against T3 horde infantry it's not as much of a problem. IIRC, Sicarian infantry (IE, Infiltrators/Ruststalkers) have "standard" FNP of 5+. A 30-man Guard blob with no power weapons (or at least none of the at-Initiative variety) will kill ~1.5 Sicarians before said Sicarians can strike back- so 4 of them will actually still be standing (remember, Sicarians are 2-wound models). These remaining 4 will strike with, IIRC, 4 combat attacks a piece, +1 more for the leader, so 17 attacks, at S6. It's about 11.34 hits, and will probably net around 2 "Taser strikes", which each confer two additional hits, so a total of 15.34 hits. At S6. They'll kill ~8.5 Guardsmen on the charge, and that's if they go through cover and have to strike at I1. Next round, they'll kill around 6 Guardsmen, leaving about 13-14 Guardsmen left standing.

That is, of course, if they managed to not fail the -5 Leadership test for losing combat. With the I4 of the Infiltrators, they'll probably sweep the I3 Guardsmen- more likely, in fact, if the Neurostatic Aura applies when making the test to break from combat.

Flechette Blasters are also pistols, and so combine with the Taser Goad to confer the bonus CCW bonus, unlike Stubcarbines, which are merely Assault and can't confer the bonus attack. Bonus points for the huge pile of S6 attacks, allowing them to easily wreck any vehicle with AV10 rear armor... IE, most of them.

For Ruststalkers, the Transonic Blades are kind of a trap- you don't get to keep the awesome Mindscrambler Grenades, which means that you then face the same problem Infiltrators (and many of the weaker Xeno assault units) face: you have to strike at I1 after charging through cover. Obviously, in the case of Infiltrators/Ruststalkers, the Dunestrider rule can help mitigate that by a lot- it's quite easy for Infiltrators/Ruststalkers/Dragoons to set up Turn 2 charges, thanks to that +3" of movement.

Still the grenades the Ruststalkers get are awesome, and generally speaking the +1S of the Blades isn't going to be very necessary, when they can already auto-wound on 6's, and do so at AP2. Ruststalkers with Chordclaws and Razors, and backed up by Infiltrators to provide the support of the Neurostatic Aura, might actually be able to take on a current Wraithknight.... though with the WK becoming a GC, that's probably going to change.

So yeah, keep the basic gear of the Ruststalkers as-is. The "Razors" and Chordclaws are perfectly sufficient, and are also a bit more flexible. Oh, and the Mindscrambler Grenades are boss.

Now, as far as Infiltrators vs Ruststalkers... I feel like Ruststalkers only really come into their own when they can charge things with 2+ armor, but still manage to survive into a second round of combat, or, they have something that's got AV12+ rear armor to charge and apply their Haywire Grenades to. Other than that, Infiltrators seem to offer better potential- against most non-Walker, non-Superheavy vehicles you can charge them and use the huge pile of S6 attacks to wreck it, and the Flechette Blasters are quite deadly against GEQ and the like, on top of conferring a bonus attack for being a pistol.

Infiltrators also provide the utility support of the Neurostatic Aura, and can start further up the board. I feel like the Skitarii generally want to deal with vehicles by either charging Dragoons or Infiltrators with their respective Taser weapons into them, or by using Arc Rifles from a distance. Against infantry, the preferred choice seems to be to use well-placed Infiltrator squads to debuff Leadership, and then use Rangers/Vanguard or Phosphor Onagers to shoot them till they run, or just shoot them till they die if that doesn't work.

But Ruststalkers are really awesome, being a very fast assault unit that's quite dangerous. In some ways the Infiltrators and Ruststalkers are really best used to complement each other, as the Infiltrators benefit from the Ruststalkers' assault grenades (IE, Ruststalkers charge first, then the Infiltrators charge and probably don't get punched a lot), and the both really benefit from the Neurostatic Aura.

As much as I love cyborg robot ninjas, I really, really love the aesthetics of the Infiltrators so I am going to build my first kit as infiltrators.

harkequin wrote:
Am i missing something with the cavaliers?

You make one reserve roll, but they dont all have to arrive on the same side, and considering you have 2/3 chance of the side you want, and a re-roll, finding the a place to arrive shouldn't be an issue, especially since they move 9"

It's definitely contentious..it doesn't say how it works in the rules. We play here they can roll separately for the sides.

Just built my first kit of Infiltrators and played in a 3v3 4,000 point Tau, Skitarii, and GK against Tyranids. I killed a Trygon Prime with my Plasma Vanguard and some Fire Warriors, and a single volley from my Infiltrators killed 11 Hormagaunts.
I took 0 casualties.
We won.

I can see the argument that they could roll separately to see which side they come from, we have just been playing that since only one roll is made for their reserve roll, only one roll is made for which side they all arrive on.

Something interesting I just realized with the russtalkers, there is literally no reason for the transonic razor to even exist. You are always going to use the chordclaw, as one attack will gain fleshbane with no downside, and the chordclaw has transonic so... what purpose is there for the razor?

Another thing to note with ruststalkers is that if you want them to hunt vehicles, it may be worth it to give the princeps a prehensile dataspike, as this will give him a melee haywire weapon, that makes up for being a specialist weapon by gaining a bonus attack at I10. with this weapon, this unit could EASILY kill a knight in one assault phase, with 4 haywire grenade attacks and 5 haywire attacks from the princeps on the charge. With infiltrators close by, even more so as they will hit first and on 3s

I'm really feeling like the elites are the weak part of this codex.

People keep talking about how great the rust stalker and infiltrator damage output is...but it's short ranged on a fragile squad.

Using LoS blocking cover along with the formation that lets them run and charge in the same turn is the only way I can think to get them into cc without getting a landraider.

Even if they get into cc and win, they will be shot off the board next turn, and will most liekly not have earned their points back (they are a bit overpriced imo).

T3 and a 4+ save just doesn't cut it vs all the str 6 stuff out there.

Elites are definitely the weakest portion, I believe that either option will most often be taken as either a love of the model, or the fluff of the unit than general competitive nature.

 gameandwatch wrote:
Elites are definitely the weakest portion, I believe that either option will most often be taken as either a love of the model, or the fluff of the unit than general competitive nature.

yeah, well they provide some decent melee, I forsee most people if they want melee wrecker units allying in something. GKTs and the like

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I'm really feeling like the elites are the weak part of this codex.

People keep talking about how great the rust stalker and infiltrator damage output is...but it's short ranged on a fragile squad.

Using LoS blocking cover along with the formation that lets them run and charge in the same turn is the only way I can think to get them into cc without getting a landraider.

Even if they get into cc and win, they will be shot off the board next turn, and will most liekly not have earned their points back (they are a bit overpriced imo).

T3 and a 4+ save just doesn't cut it vs all the str 6 stuff out there.

Well yes, against S6/7 spam then there really isn't much that T3/4+/6++/5+++ will do, as it denies FNP, denies 2-Wound durability, and can either overwhelm the 4+ or bypass it via AP and force the model to rely on either cover or the 6++. The point about Infiltrators/Ruststalkers that makes them pretty good though, is that they are incredibly fast for what is basically just a bunch of expensive, footslogging, punch-happy doods. It's a lot of why Dragoons are so amazeballs as well; they're incredibly fast, and so they can easily force your opponent to deal with them.

In the current state of the game, where "spam S6/7 shooting=win", then this isn't particularly useful, as the Sicarian infantry are doubled out by S6+ and Dragoons are 10/10/10 2HP and Open-Topped to boot. Realistically, however, against armies that aren't Eldar (because Scatterbikes are blatantly, horrifically OP) or Tau (because of HYMP+Ignore Cover MLs), then Dragoons and Sicarians are pretty amazing.

Well, dragoons are actually 11/11/11 but apples and oranges, immunity to bolters is something. Speed is the key, and I feel that the way to deal with jetbike spam and hymp broadsides is the same, soften them up considerably from afar and then send in the assaulters. Even infiltrating/ scouting sicarian infiltrators with flechette pistols will WRECK jetbikes in the shooting phase.

The big rule that dominates skitarii is "Do I have first turn?" As well, the only real way I fell you can run them is threat overload. Have 2-3 units of infiltrators, a bunch of vanguard or rangers, tons of dragoons, etc. Force your opponent to choose the targets you want, because if there is one thing that every unit in skitarii basically represents, that is the glass-cannon methodology. Basically all the units are capable of high damage output in small numbers.

I agree. That's what made me decide to run the killclade - 1 or two units of infiltrators / ruststalkers is tolerable, but 4 is borderline overload, especially when both unit types have a pretty significant threat increase for free.

True, and coupled with what I run which is also 12 dragoons, good luck dispatching all of that

Is it me or are dragoons with tasers insanely good?

 Wilson wrote:
Is it me or are dragoons with tasers insanely good?

On paper they're good with everything. My favorite loadout is Jezzail, though, due to the ridiculousness it inflicts on a 6 to wound.

 Verviedi wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Is it me or are dragoons with tasers insanely good?

On paper they're good with everything. My favorite loadout is Jezzail, though, due to the ridiculousness it inflicts on a 6 to wound.

Whats good about that? Vangaurd do the whole rad poisoning thing much better.

 Wilson wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Is it me or are dragoons with tasers insanely good?

On paper they're good with everything. My favorite loadout is Jezzail, though, due to the ridiculousness it inflicts on a 6 to wound.

Whats good about that? Vangaurd do the whole rad poisoning thing much better.

The Jezzail is a sniper, 6's are resolved at AP2

harkequin wrote:

 Wilson wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Is it me or are dragoons with tasers insanely good?

On paper they're good with everything. My favorite loadout is Jezzail, though, due to the ridiculousness it inflicts on a 6 to wound.

Whats good about that? Vangaurd do the whole rad poisoning thing much better.

The Jezzail is a sniper, 6's are resolved at AP2

Yeah but... 3 dragoons with tasers are way better. 12 tesla attacks @st8 ws5? ( doctrines) will tear stuff apart!

Yeah but... 3 dragoons with tasers are way better. 12 tesla attacks @st8 ws5? ( doctrines) will tear stuff apart!

Absolutely, I'd lean more towards tasers myself, but jezzails are ranged. 3 dragoons with jezzails, @BS5 , 5 hits, likely one 6,

so, 2 ap5 wounds, and 2 ap2 wounds regardless of toughness . Up this to a squad of 6 and, you're killing ~4 TEQs at 30" range. or 6 MEQs. There are probably not the most points efficient, but a solid option. + they can still charge things as needed with S5 attacks, and AV11 for tarpitting.

I think a squad of tasers would be great, more versatile. They would love hoards and vehicles, and can even drown other units in saves.
But they still are doing this ar T2 at the earliest.

What Skitarii list are you running where you absolutely need your Dragoons to have ranged attacks instead of CC?

I dont see them needing it, ballistari can do it better anyway, I'm just pointing out why some people like the jezzails, 6's are 2 AP2 wounds at 30" range, It might suit some people.

I'd still prefer tasers though

 Kanluwen wrote:
What Skitarii list are you running where you absolutely need your Dragoons to have ranged attacks instead of CC?

My local store is CC Deathstar heavy. I really don't want to be in CC, because I'm usually going to be fighting all-Daemonhammer GK PaladinStar backed up with all-Daemonhammer Strike Squads. Shooting is simply more efficient than CC against invisible Paladins, because anything they fight is going to be dead in one turn anyway.

Honestly I think if you can get them into combat, stalkers should be able to handle the new Wraithknight despite it's GMC status. There's a batrep from Frontline Gaming on Twitch with a barely optimised Skitarii list up against a Nidzilla tournament list that includes a Barbed Hierodule, and a unit of 5 stalkers knocks off 5 of its 6 wounds. Of course if it rolls loads of Stomps you'd be buggered, but that's true of most things.

I have a suspicion that the relative speed of the Sicarian units might be giving people the wrong impression about them; to me they seem to make much more sense when viewed as the second wave of an attack, rather than the first. Charging Vanguard then Infiltrators as a one-two punch, with Stalkers to peel off and engage anything that looks like threatening your ability to pull off that tactic or to deliver a knockout into a combat with Super Heavies/GMCs/particularly tough MCs sounds to me like it will be more effective than trying to run a block of Sicarians up the board as if they were Marines. Or using them as counter-chargers if you use your Vanguard as an aggressive gunline.

Basically, look at their speed as a tool to make sure they are where you need them to be at any particular time, rather than a way for them to get into combat early and quickly.

harkequin wrote:
I dont see them needing it, ballistari can do it better anyway, I'm just pointing out why some people like the jezzails, 6's are 2 AP2 wounds at 30" range, It might suit some people.

What? Ballistari can do 'it' better? What is it? Dragoons are MUCH better at taking out MCs or TEQs with their shooting than Ballistari are. For the points. They're cheaper. 45 points a model. They're more durable. 5+ cover follows them wherever they go. A gun that causes 2 AP2 wounds on anything whenever you role a 6.

At 55 points you get ballstari with autocannons which always allow MCs and TEQs their armor saves. Not as good. Sure you can get a lascannon instead but then you're very very light walker is up to 75 points which IMHO is a bit expensive for such an easy to take down target (and then 30 points more than the Dragoon). Now yes, the Ironstrider ballistari can help deal with vehicles, but do Skitarii really have a problem with vehicle? They've got ranged haywire guns for pete's sake so I don't think so.

Clearly I like the Dragoons better lol. If someone is not taking Skitarii by themselves, I would imagine the best thing to do would be to focus on shooting and have some other imperium force have a bit of assault-y-ness if need be. That way the first three turns are BS 7, 6 and 5. Anyway in a case like that the ranged weapons Dragoons would definitely outclass the Ironstrider Ballistari. Dragoons are cheap and they help make things like Dreadknights and Wraithknights go bye bye.

 Verviedi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
What Skitarii list are you running where you absolutely need your Dragoons to have ranged attacks instead of CC?

My meta is CC Deathstar heavy. I really don't want to be in CC, because I'm usually going to be fighting all-Daemonhammer GK PaladinStar backed up with all-Daemonhammer Strike Squads. Shooting is simply more efficient than CC against invisible Paladins, because anything they fight is going to be dead in one turn anyway.

Your "meta" is effectively our local GW.

Most of the people showing up to play aren't doing anything but using whatever they brought with them--or whatever really floated their boat for purchases to start with.

Stop acting like you need to be playing at the same level as tournaments. And stop saying "meta". It doesn't apply in this particular situation.
If you were going out to Atomic Empire or Gamer's Armory and playing there, it would be more appropriate--but effectively you're playing at one shop and home, correct?

I don't like calling people out on things like this, but quite frankly it is irksome to continually see you behaving as though you need to be preparing for a big tournament when in reality you just need to stop and ask the person you're playing against "Hey, can you not bring X?" and they likely will tone their list down.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
What Skitarii list are you running where you absolutely need your Dragoons to have ranged attacks instead of CC?

My meta is CC Deathstar heavy. I really don't want to be in CC, because I'm usually going to be fighting all-Daemonhammer GK PaladinStar backed up with all-Daemonhammer Strike Squads. Shooting is simply more efficient than CC against invisible Paladins, because anything they fight is going to be dead in one turn anyway.

Your "meta" is effectively our local GW.

Most of the people showing up to play aren't doing anything but using whatever they brought with them--or whatever really floated their boat for purchases to start with.

Stop acting like you need to be playing at the same level as tournaments. And stop saying "meta". It doesn't apply in this particular situation.
If you were going out to Atomic Empire or Gamer's Armory and playing there, it would be more appropriate--but effectively you're playing at one shop and home, correct?

I don't like calling people out on things like this, but quite frankly it is irksome to continually see you behaving as though you need to be preparing for a big tournament when in reality you just need to stop and ask the person you're playing against "Hey, can you not bring X?" and they likely will tone their list down.

I personally don't believe in making my opponents handicap themselves. In addition, the meta is bleeding into the store a bit. I do believe I've played against you (I have no idea who you are, don't want to know and hope you don't know who I am (That would be somewhat disastrous), but I have played against almost everyone).

Honestly, I'm terrible at the game. What I am good at is theorycrafting. Even if I ran a tourney list (which I did once, beat a casual list, and switched to a more interesting list because there's nothing I hate more than a curb-stomp) I would most likely still lose, because I lack experience despite playing the game for ~4 years.

I try to keep the internet seperate from my real life, and it evidently isn't working. I will replace all instances of "meta" with "local store".

 Verviedi wrote:

DaPino wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that special weapons on Rangers just flat out impede them.

Arc rifle and calivers are too short-ranged for them (rhey dit vanguard better) and Aqueribus' are just too damn expensive to be worth their points.

Honestly, I don't think they're too bad for the points. I always have a squad sitting on my backfield objective, and they are a nice deterrant for non-TEQs entering their sight line. A Tyranid, SM, or DEldar player worrying about essentially auto-losing wounds on a MC, MEQ or light vehicle if it enters a certain area on the board is fairly powerful.

25 points for an Aquebus certainly is too dam expensive.

Against 2+ saves they use useless. Against 4+ saves you would much rather have the extra rifles.
Consider that an Aquebus costs more than 2 additional rangers. It also replaces a rifle, so your choice is 3 rifiles vs 1 aquebus.
A 5 man with 2 Aquebuses costs as much as a 9 man Ranger squad. 2 Aquesbuses and 3 rifles vs 9 rifles.

Now the rifle has double the range. If you are going to be outside 30" then it makes sense.
If you are going to be hitting T6+ it makes some sense, but other than flyrants, how many 3+ MCs do you worry about (Wraithknight is now GC)
Light vehicles are a fair point, regular rifles cannot tough AV11 or 12, but Aquebuses dont really strip hull points that effectively. They cost a lot more than an autocannon and dont deliver the same punch.

In most cases I would rather have the extra bodies and rifles, particularly when things come to clear your objective. 9 wounds and 18 rapid fire shots vs 5 wounds and 5 shots.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Best load out for infiltrators and rust stalkers?

Also, which unit do you Prefer?

For Infiltrators, skip the Sword+Stubcarbine entirely. Yes, you get better range on your shooting and AP3 in combat, but the problem is that Infiltrators don't have assault grenades, and against MEQ they really will want to be striking simultaneously rather than last. This is especially true against, say, MEQ with Power Mauls- that Maul will be striking at S6/AP4, allowing it to deny 4+ armor and FNP, leaving the Infiltrators with their 6++ as their only defense.

Flechette Blaster+Taser Goad allows better anti-infantry shooting, actually, against T3/4 targets; an an example, against T3/5+, Stubcarbines kill 3-4 models, maybe 5 if you roll well. Flechette Blasters will actually kill 7-8 T3/5+ models, potentially wiping out most of a squad. Additionally Taser Goads make the Infiltrators S6 in combat. While they are still going to have to deal with not having assault grenades, against T3 horde infantry it's not as much of a problem. IIRC, Sicarian infantry (IE, Infiltrators/Ruststalkers) have "standard" FNP of 5+. A 30-man Guard blob with no power weapons (or at least none of the at-Initiative variety) will kill ~1.5 Sicarians before said Sicarians can strike back- so 4 of them will actually still be standing (remember, Sicarians are 2-wound models). These remaining 4 will strike with, IIRC, 4 combat attacks a piece, +1 more for the leader, so 17 attacks, at S6. It's about 11.34 hits, and will probably net around 2 "Taser strikes", which each confer two additional hits, so a total of 15.34 hits. At S6. They'll kill ~8.5 Guardsmen on the charge, and that's if they go through cover and have to strike at I1. Next round, they'll kill around 6 Guardsmen, leaving about 13-14 Guardsmen left standing.

That is, of course, if they managed to not fail the -5 Leadership test for losing combat. With the I4 of the Infiltrators, they'll probably sweep the I3 Guardsmen- more likely, in fact, if the Neurostatic Aura applies when making the test to break from combat.

Flechette Blasters are also pistols, and so combine with the Taser Goad to confer the bonus CCW bonus, unlike Stubcarbines, which are merely Assault and can't confer the bonus attack. Bonus points for the huge pile of S6 attacks, allowing them to easily wreck any vehicle with AV10 rear armor... IE, most of them.

For Ruststalkers, the Transonic Blades are kind of a trap- you don't get to keep the awesome Mindscrambler Grenades, which means that you then face the same problem Infiltrators (and many of the weaker Xeno assault units) face: you have to strike at I1 after charging through cover. Obviously, in the case of Infiltrators/Ruststalkers, the Dunestrider rule can help mitigate that by a lot- it's quite easy for Infiltrators/Ruststalkers/Dragoons to set up Turn 2 charges, thanks to that +3" of movement.

Still the grenades the Ruststalkers get are awesome, and generally speaking the +1S of the Blades isn't going to be very necessary, when they can already auto-wound on 6's, and do so at AP2. Ruststalkers with Chordclaws and Razors, and backed up by Infiltrators to provide the support of the Neurostatic Aura, might actually be able to take on a current Wraithknight.... though with the WK becoming a GC, that's probably going to change.

So yeah, keep the basic gear of the Ruststalkers as-is. The "Razors" and Chordclaws are perfectly sufficient, and are also a bit more flexible. Oh, and the Mindscrambler Grenades are boss.

Now, as far as Infiltrators vs Ruststalkers... I feel like Ruststalkers only really come into their own when they can charge things with 2+ armor, but still manage to survive into a second round of combat, or, they have something that's got AV12+ rear armor to charge and apply their Haywire Grenades to. Other than that, Infiltrators seem to offer better potential- against most non-Walker, non-Superheavy vehicles you can charge them and use the huge pile of S6 attacks to wreck it, and the Flechette Blasters are quite deadly against GEQ and the like, on top of conferring a bonus attack for being a pistol.

Infiltrators also provide the utility support of the Neurostatic Aura, and can start further up the board. I feel like the Skitarii generally want to deal with vehicles by either charging Dragoons or Infiltrators with their respective Taser weapons into them, or by using Arc Rifles from a distance. Against infantry, the preferred choice seems to be to use well-placed Infiltrator squads to debuff Leadership, and then use Rangers/Vanguard or Phosphor Onagers to shoot them till they run, or just shoot them till they die if that doesn't work.

But Ruststalkers are really awesome, being a very fast assault unit that's quite dangerous. In some ways the Infiltrators and Ruststalkers are really best used to complement each other, as the Infiltrators benefit from the Ruststalkers' assault grenades (IE, Ruststalkers charge first, then the Infiltrators charge and probably don't get punched a lot), and the both really benefit from the Neurostatic Aura.

My thinking pretty much exactly

Pistol and Taser are awesome, much better than carbine and sword

The grenades are simply too good to give up


Also the claw blade looks better than doulbe sword
pistol and taser looks better than carbine and sword

 Verviedi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
What Skitarii list are you running where you absolutely need your Dragoons to have ranged attacks instead of CC?

My meta is CC Deathstar heavy. I really don't want to be in CC, because I'm usually going to be fighting all-Daemonhammer GK PaladinStar backed up with all-Daemonhammer Strike Squads. Shooting is simply more efficient than CC against invisible Paladins, because anything they fight is going to be dead in one turn anyway.

Your "meta" is effectively our local GW.

Most of the people showing up to play aren't doing anything but using whatever they brought with them--or whatever really floated their boat for purchases to start with.

Stop acting like you need to be playing at the same level as tournaments. And stop saying "meta". It doesn't apply in this particular situation.
If you were going out to Atomic Empire or Gamer's Armory and playing there, it would be more appropriate--but effectively you're playing at one shop and home, correct?

I don't like calling people out on things like this, but quite frankly it is irksome to continually see you behaving as though you need to be preparing for a big tournament when in reality you just need to stop and ask the person you're playing against "Hey, can you not bring X?" and they likely will tone their list down.

I personally don't believe in making my opponents handicap themselves. In addition, the meta is bleeding into the store a bit. I do believe I've played against you (I have no idea who you are and don't want to know, but I have played against almost everyone).

Nah, you haven't played against me. I'm the older brother of the guy who will run deep striking Gretchin.

Well, maybe we played a Regiments of Renown game at some point--because the only real times my 40k stuff came out were when I ran my 2x units of 8 Eldar Pathfinders, Illic Nightspear, and War Walker lists. All three of those times were against two people who remember the games and thought they were fun, if slightly irritating(due to the absurdity of the cover saves that Pathfinders had) games.

Also? It's not "making your opponents handicap themselves". You are both there to have a fun game. Do you think that everyone shows up to have curbstomp OMGWINNING games at our shop?

Honestly, I'm terrible at the game. What I am good at is theorycrafting. Even if I ran a tourney list (which I did once, beat a casual list, and switched to a more interesting list because there's nothing I hate more than a curb-stomp) I would most likely still lose, because I lack experience despite playing the game for ~4 years.

It's not a "lack of experience". It's the simple fact that even running a tournament list, there are still factors which can play against you--notably the fact that you have to roll dice.

I try to keep the internet separate from my real life, and it evidently isn't working. I will replace all instances of "meta" with "local store".

It's a problem of terminology.

A 'meta' is the overall state of the game in any given area. Your experience is part of the meta, but does not the meta make.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
What Skitarii list are you running where you absolutely need your Dragoons to have ranged attacks instead of CC?

My meta is CC Deathstar heavy. I really don't want to be in CC, because I'm usually going to be fighting all-Daemonhammer GK PaladinStar backed up with all-Daemonhammer Strike Squads. Shooting is simply more efficient than CC against invisible Paladins, because anything they fight is going to be dead in one turn anyway.

Your "meta" is effectively our local GW.

Most of the people showing up to play aren't doing anything but using whatever they brought with them--or whatever really floated their boat for purchases to start with.

Stop acting like you need to be playing at the same level as tournaments. And stop saying "meta". It doesn't apply in this particular situation.
If you were going out to Atomic Empire or Gamer's Armory and playing there, it would be more appropriate--but effectively you're playing at one shop and home, correct?

I don't like calling people out on things like this, but quite frankly it is irksome to continually see you behaving as though you need to be preparing for a big tournament when in reality you just need to stop and ask the person you're playing against "Hey, can you not bring X?" and they likely will tone their list down.

I personally don't believe in making my opponents handicap themselves. In addition, the meta is bleeding into the store a bit. I do believe I've played against you (I have no idea who you are and don't want to know, but I have played against almost everyone).

Nah, you haven't played against me. I'm the older brother of the guy who will run deep striking Gretchin.

Well, maybe we played a Regiments of Renown game at some point--because the only real times my 40k stuff came out were when I ran my 2x units of 8 Eldar Pathfinders, Illic Nightspear, and War Walker lists. All three of those times were against two people who remember the games and thought they were fun, if slightly irritating(due to the absurdity of the cover saves that Pathfinders had) games.

Also? It's not "making your opponents handicap themselves". You are both there to have a fun game. Do you think that everyone shows up to have curbstomp OMGWINNING games at our shop?

Honestly, I'm terrible at the game. What I am good at is theorycrafting. Even if I ran a tourney list (which I did once, beat a casual list, and switched to a more interesting list because there's nothing I hate more than a curb-stomp) I would most likely still lose, because I lack experience despite playing the game for ~4 years.

It's not a "lack of experience". It's the simple fact that even running a tournament list, there are still factors which can play against you--notably the fact that you have to roll dice.

I try to keep the internet separate from my real life, and it evidently isn't working. I will replace all instances of "meta" with "local store".

It's a problem of terminology.

A 'meta' is the overall state of the game in any given area. Your experience is part of the meta, but does not the meta make.

Oh. Thank you. I've never played Eldar, though.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget the neutron laser is concussive, allowing them to shoot, say, a Wraithknight or an Imperial Knight, then you can charge it and be basically guaranteed to strike first.

3 Onagers with 3 Neutron Lasers and the Cognis Fabricator claw thingies could eat up a Wraithknight if it is dumb enough to get charged.

EDIT:
Also, I would like to say 2 things:

Armored battlegroup with Skitarii is hilarious.

I am building a Killclade because I think the models are cool. Any advice? So far I have found the infiltrators to be incredibly useful, while the Ruststalkers are mostly a big smokescreen that attracts so much firepower Turn 1 that it's not even funny, and if they're not dead, they hit like a truck.

look up the rules for concussive. It has to do a WOUND, not a wound or hullpoint. Vehicles are immune to concussive.

Ah, true. Still, it will tear up everything other than an imperial knight.

The more and more I read the book the more gold I find.

A unit of 3 onagers with arrays will statistically drop a flyrant, 3 hornets, wave serpent, any deldar skimmer/ flyer. Hell, it does 3.7 hull points on a jinking fire raptor.

2 units of Vanguard with double caliver in each will drop a Wraithknight with ease and don't even need to deep strike with scout. ( it is crucial to get the turn 1 alpha though. ) and if that fails, assault with the vanguard + infiltrators and smack it about at -1 toughness, WS,BS and I.

Another use for vanguard assault abilities is coupled with dragoons to double out T5 units- CM without EW and centurions for example or vanguard with infiltrators vs broadsides, xv8 suits, MEQ, Eldar Farseers etc.

Arc rifles will drop any 6 hull point vehicle in one round however range is an issue here - even with scout. This is where drop pods come in.

Still love how sick dragoons are. 4 tesla attacks at S8? Beautiful! 135 pts for 12 attacks. Dragoons also seem to somewhat replicate what lictors do( I'm a nid player) where they are cheap mobile units that can actually hold there own in cc AND go for objectives by placing large amounts on the field.

Also making an infiltrator your warlord for D3 re rollable warlord traits with PE is awesome. Stealth +'shrouded. Eternal warrior and rerollable FNP would be INSANE. Even on a T3 dude!

This book has massive potential but that turn one is so imperative to success it is frightening. I'm considering Coteaz as almost an essential addition to best secure turn 1.( as secure as possible any way. )

( literally only just got the book so please excuse me for being annoyingly excited. Damn these guys are AWESOME!!!!

 Wilson wrote:

Also making an infiltrator your warlord for D3 re rollable warlord traits with PE is awesome. Stealth +'shrouded. Eternal warrior and rerollable FNP would be INSANE. Even on a T3 dude!

It would be great, but on a 2W, T3, 4+ dude. It is still mighty weak. If you have PE warlord it is obviously best on a large squad. 10 Vanguard(preferably with plasma) or 10 Infiltrators

 Exergy wrote:

 Wilson wrote:

Also making an infiltrator your warlord for D3 re rollable warlord traits with PE is awesome. Stealth +'shrouded. Eternal warrior and rerollable FNP would be INSANE. Even on a T3 dude!

It would be great, but on a 2W, T3, 4+ dude. It is still mighty weak. If you have PE warlord it is obviously best on a large squad. 10 Vanguard(preferably with plasma) or 10 Infiltrators

I think you have to take advantage of the stealth that comes with the infiltrators to make the WL as survivable as possible though and a vanguard unit will be much easier to remove from the table.
a unit of 5 infiltrators is 190 pts with refractor field on the Princep.
10 infiltrators is an insanely expensive (360 pts bare) unit. less is more in my opinion but honestly, survivable warlords and infantry are not in this codex and the only way to make the most out of a crappy situation is to make the princep your warlord. securing a 2+ cover in area/ ruin terrain, 5++ invuln and 5+ FNP vs anything S5 or less.

gives you the best shot at keeping him alive!

Or ally a single Inquisitor to be Warlord.

Allies cant be primary therefore cant make warlord.

If you want survivable just take a primary of marines / knights.

 Wilson wrote:
Allies cant be primary therefore cant make warlord.

If you want survivable just take a primary of marines / knights.

Re-read how Inquisitorial Detachments work.

Why do the princeps get D3 warlord traits? All I see is that they only get to roll a D3 on the chart.

 Wilson wrote:

This book has massive potential but that turn one is so imperative to success it is frightening. I'm considering Coteaz as almost an essential addition to best secure turn 1.( as secure as possible any way. )

More secure is Coteaz plus more! Lol. Does anyone in the Imperium give a modifier to your seize the initiative roll? Bjorn maybe? Yeah pretty sure he does. So that's +1 to seize plus a reroll! All you need is to take Coteaz by himself and whatever the smallest point size detachment of SW is that includes Bjorn. Lol.

I now reaaally want to make an "admech coteaz". Either stick him with 9 Vanguard, 2 plasma in a pod or a full squad in a Valkyrie.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why do the princeps get D3 warlord traits? All I see is that they only get to roll a D3 on the chart.

ah your right. Thats confusing then. So you only get 2 warlord traits? 1-2, 3-3-4 or 5 and 6? Still thats cool!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
Allies cant be primary therefore cant make warlord.

If you want survivable just take a primary of marines / knights.

Re-read how Inquisitorial Detachments work.

Done. Noted thanks

No, you get one Warlord trait, as normal: on a roll of 1-2, you get trait #1; on a roll of 3-4, you get trait #2; and on a roll of 5-6, you get trait #3. Traits 4,5, and 6 aren't available to Sicarian Warlords.

I think.

Well i am confused for sure. Haha. Ive emailed GW faq but i doubt ill get an answer. You know what they are like...

Seems pretty clear to me - Sicarians only have access to the first 3 warlord traits, because they only roll a D3 on the chart. They still only generate one trait.

Exactly like the harlequins - you roll a D3 for some characters (and thus can only access the first 3 traits) or a D6 for others (and therefore can get the lot).

I like the limit to D3 myself as you get a far greater chance to get the one you want.

Question time - Dune Crawlers...

I am running a unit of 3 at present as follows...
1 - Icarus + cognis stubber
2 - Icarus + cognis stubber
3 - TL phosphor blaster + cognis stubber + cognis manipulator

Thoughts on this load out? The Icarus are enough to scare just about any flyer (3 seals the deal vs AV12 but 2 is almost enough) while the phosphor blaster potentially helps with absorbing hits to the unit, marking land targets once the AA is done with and adding versatility to the unit late game.

Running 3 Icarus (along with my adamantine lance) is a no brainer but I worry that 400 points is to much to be had snap shooting at things when I face an all bike eldar/SM army or anything else without flyers/FMC/skimmers

I think I mentioned before that my unit of 3 onagers is going to be 3x Neutron Guns, 3x extra Cognis heavy stubber, 3x cognis fabricator claw thingy, and the mindscanner probe.

Walk them up alongside my killclade formation (or in front of them) and go for the gut.

3x Icarus seems mediocre - I know everyone is going googly-eyed over them, but I think that AP4 doesn't cut it against FMCs and Str 7 doesn't cut it against flyers. Yes, it has one AP2 shot. Whoopee. :/

15 shots at S6 with ignores cover and a BS boost from an imperative will drop 3hp on any av12 flyer with ease. That's not including the auto cannon or missile launcher. That's huge!

Even flyrants won't like that and take 2-3 wounds after saves from just the rockets. That's fantastic! Realistically these things kill flying things dead.

 Massaen wrote:
15 shots at S6 with ignores cover and a BS boost from an imperative will drop 3hp on any av12 flyer with ease. That's not including the auto cannon or missile launcher. That's huge!

Even flyrants won't like that and take 2-3 wounds after saves from just the rockets. That's fantastic! Realistically these things kill flying things dead.

Well three of them do, and three of them are 195 points minimum. Tell me, what do they do to any ground target ever for nearly 200 points?

Also at BS5 the rockets only do an average of 2 hull points to a plane that is armor 12.

I just bought a warhound titan for the price of a knight and I am wondering whom to run as a CAD alongside my skitarii to unlock the LoW choice needed to take it. I am currently leaning towards Militarum Tempestus with a 3Xplasma gun/plasma pistol/medic command squad so I will have 2 units of plasma spam with PE combined with my warlord's unit of vanguard, with a couple units of either suicide melta squads or hotshot volleyguns to meet minimum CAD requirments.

I don't want to run the D and so for weapons I was thinking 2 of the 15 shot s6 ap3 guns. That option can hurt flyrants or lighter flyers like eldar and Deldar ones and also can deal with eldar bikes, land transports, and MEQ nicely.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Massaen wrote:
15 shots at S6 with ignores cover and a BS boost from an imperative will drop 3hp on any av12 flyer with ease. That's not including the auto cannon or missile launcher. That's huge!

Even flyrants won't like that and take 2-3 wounds after saves from just the rockets. That's fantastic! Realistically these things kill flying things dead.

Well three of them do, and three of them are 195 points minimum. Tell me, what do they do to any ground target ever for nearly 200 points?

Also at BS5 the rockets only do an average of 2 hull points to a plane that is armor 12.

Well, my question to that is, what would you do without them against a 3-5 flyrant list? Or a bunch of flyers in general?

On a different topic, I have been eyeballing the formations (more to figure out how I want to field my ruststalkers and infiltrators) just to really dissect how usable they are.

Ignoring the maniple, lets start with the killclade:

Bad stuff first:
A 4 unit tax is definitely expensive and is a large board imprint, but worst of all, not being part of a skitarii detachment means they lose crusader and scout. This is very important and will reflect how we look at the good.

The good:
12" infiltrator bubble: This is a fantastic buff, considering the bubble affects models and not units, this can really alter the survivability of your army by blanketing the enemies line in -1WS, I and LD bust most importantly, -1BS which is what most of the skitarii army is vulnerable to, massed ranged S6-7. The rustalkers also gain the ability to run and charge once per game after turn 1. Once per game is kinda meh, but considering most of these guys will likely be left in the open after their first charge maybe it isn't such a big deal. What stinks is what is mentioned in Bad Stuff, losing crusader and scout stinks as this would make a turn 2 charge pretty much guaranteed, but even with the the worst rolls, dunestrider thankfully makes up for this putting them a minimum of 26" across the board before charge rolls are made.

Ironstrider Cavaliers:
The Bad:
One thing for sure that stinks is that the formation MUST be placed in reserve, hurting the formations flexibility as a whole. Second big issue coming from the same problem is one reserve roll for the entire formation. Now, you can mitigate this with a comms relay or something, but still gives the chance of the entire formation being delayed which especially hurts the dragoons. Dragoons have dunestrider, so if they are to deploy in a normal detachment, they would instead have a near guaranteed second turn charge with scout, crusader and dunstrider. Last bad thing is the size of the model and its base. This limits deployment options when they actually do enter and your opponent can then counter this formation by deploying blob units or infiltrators along the sides of their deployment zone. Now where some confusion comes in with the formation is where they all come in: do you roll for one side for the whole formation since you roll once for their reserve roll? Or do you roll individually to see what side they arrive from?

The Good: Now, to mitigate what was just labeled in the bad, thankfully this formation rolls to see if it enters starting turn 1. A turn 1 flank alphastrike is an endeering proposition, and really messes up your opponents deployment options. As well, if you were to arrive turn 1, this near guarantees a second turn charge with the dragoons. This formation also gives you access to more of either unit, especially dragoons considering a normal detachment only has 2 fast attack slots.

The Meh?
The formation's special rules beyond the outflank rule are somewhat situational and not necessarily going to be a benefit in every game. THe shooting through your own units bit, will only apply if you are intentionally screening your ballistari with your dragoons, and reroll wounds on a character and their unit may or may not be useful.

Overall, both seem applicable, I personally would not use the ironstrider one as it can be too chancy and I want my dragoons on the board for those tasty turn 2 charges. I like the killclade the more I look at it, even though they lose crusader and scout, man oh man can they cover a HUGE distance very quickly.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Massaen wrote:
15 shots at S6 with ignores cover and a BS boost from an imperative will drop 3hp on any av12 flyer with ease. That's not including the auto cannon or missile launcher. That's huge!

Even flyrants won't like that and take 2-3 wounds after saves from just the rockets. That's fantastic! Realistically these things kill flying things dead.

Well three of them do, and three of them are 195 points minimum.

Base price without any upgrades for three is 270. That's before the anti aircraft guns are even taken.

I plan to run three but how they are equiped and if they are in a unit will depend.

It is a tough call but I will definitely have to see what the post eldar meta looks like before I finish kitting them out

Super Newb wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Massaen wrote:
15 shots at S6 with ignores cover and a BS boost from an imperative will drop 3hp on any av12 flyer with ease. That's not including the auto cannon or missile launcher. That's huge!

Even flyrants won't like that and take 2-3 wounds after saves from just the rockets. That's fantastic! Realistically these things kill flying things dead.

Well three of them do, and three of them are 195 points minimum.

Base price without any upgrades for three is 270. That's before the anti aircraft guns are even taken.

Omg you're right I had the dumb.

So what is your 375 point unit doing to ground units again?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

So what is your 375 point unit doing to ground units again?

Indeed! If the opponent has no fliers or one flyer then it looks like the Skitarii player comes out behind on that exchange.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:
I plan to run three but how they are equiped and if they are in a unit will depend.

It is a tough call but I will definitely have to see what the post eldar meta looks like before I finish kitting them out

Surely the answer to this is magnets?
I don't have the kit, I am still debating on getting the crabs, but please tell me it is easy enough to magnetize the weapons?

I normally ignored flyers most of the time, or just massed snap shots at them. Ill agree, using the dunecrawlers as permanant AA platforms is both tempting and disappointing as it severely limits a 125 point model to AA.

If flyers are an issue, I feel ballistari may actually be a better platform as for that same point cost you could get 6 balistari or 4 with lascannons. Yeah they don't skyfire or intercept, but BS2 twin'linked against flyers aint bad, and they can also engage ground targets in the meantime.

I am liking crawlers more in the double stubber, neutron laser or stubber phosphur catagory better. i have considered running them simply as phosphur/stubber to act as support for my assault units.

I was actually disappointed that the Onager(and the Hydra for that matter) did not get a purchasable upgrade allowing for their AA weaponry to hit ground targets at less of a penalty.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Massaen wrote:
15 shots at S6 with ignores cover and a BS boost from an imperative will drop 3hp on any av12 flyer with ease. That's not including the auto cannon or missile launcher. That's huge!

Even flyrants won't like that and take 2-3 wounds after saves from just the rockets. That's fantastic! Realistically these things kill flying things dead.

Well three of them do, and three of them are 195 points minimum. Tell me, what do they do to any ground target ever for nearly 200 points?

Also at BS5 the rockets only do an average of 2 hull points to a plane that is armor 12.

Arent most fliers around 200 points anyway? give or take about fidy

 Desubot wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Massaen wrote:
15 shots at S6 with ignores cover and a BS boost from an imperative will drop 3hp on any av12 flyer with ease. That's not including the auto cannon or missile launcher. That's huge!

Even flyrants won't like that and take 2-3 wounds after saves from just the rockets. That's fantastic! Realistically these things kill flying things dead.

Well three of them do, and three of them are 195 points minimum. Tell me, what do they do to any ground target ever for nearly 200 points?

Also at BS5 the rockets only do an average of 2 hull points to a plane that is armor 12.

Arent most fliers around 200 points anyway? give or take about fidy

3 crabs with AA guns is closer to 400 points actually. 375 for 3 dudes who are really bad against ground targets is probably not the wisest choice.

I will definitely be magnitizing when I buy my crabs.

Honestly, I think you would likely have better luck with B-tars with autocannons. 12 twin linked cognis autocannon shots vs 15 S6 missiles, 6 autocannon shots and 3 plasma shots. Fairly comparable, cras have slightly higher output but can't engage ground targets, but better BS against air targets. B-tars have more high strength shots, twin linked, can engage ground targets and higher survivability with 12 HP vs 6 HP. B-tars have av 11 no save, where as crabs have av12 and a 6++/5++/4++.

Cognis really gives the b-tars a lot of flexibility, bs2 twin linked against flyers is really not that bad.

 gameandwatch wrote:
Honestly, I think you would likely have better luck with B-tars with autocannons. 12 twin linked cognis autocannon shots vs 15 S6 missiles, 6 autocannon shots and 3 plasma shots. Fairly comparable, cras have slightly higher output but can't engage ground targets, but better BS against air targets. B-tars have more high strength shots, twin linked, can engage ground targets and higher survivability with 12 HP vs 6 HP. B-tars have av 11 no save, where as crabs have av12 and a 6++/5++/4++.

Cognis really gives the b-tars a lot of flexibility, bs2 twin linked against flyers is really not that bad.

The chicken walkers are also a bit cheaper* than the crabs. 6 of them is 330 points. 3 crabs with AA guns is 375.


*Cheaper points-wise in game. Definitely not cheaper real money wise!

Odds of coming up against a skimmer, flyer or FMC in today's meta is pretty high...

Right now I'd lay down 3 onagers with arrays quite happily in a tournement setting. 375 pts dedicated to taking out those units efficiently is pts well spent in an 1750-1850 pt comp. besides they are durable beasts too.

Ballistarii don't scream any importance to me. 55 pt auto cannon turret on open topped av11 - with no save is weak. If you want creepy long legged runners go for dragoons.

 Wilson wrote:
Odds of coming up against a skimmer, flyer or FMC in today's meta is pretty high...

Right now I'd lay down 3 onagers with arrays quite happily in a tournement setting. 375 pts dedicated to taking out those units efficiently is pts well spent in an 1750-1850 pt comp. besides they are durable beasts too.

Ballistarii don't scream any importance to me. 55 pt auto cannon turret on open topped av11 - with no save is weak. If you want creepy long legged runners go for dragoons.

Sure, I am not against running it either, was just suggesting a possible alternative.

Dragoons are definitely not anti-flyer but they have their uses. Ranged Dragoons are better for helping to take out MCs or elite infantry with their crazy rad sniper gun. Melee Dragoons are good for lancing a lot of things to death, vehicles included lol.

3 Iccarus sounds tempting but would pidgenhoul the squad against anything not a flyer/skimmer

I've been debating doing 2 and 2, 2 icarus crawlers and 2 neutron crawlers. granted a 5++ isnt as good, but is more versatile, and they're neat models

Super Newb wrote:
Dragoons are definitely not anti-flyer but they have their uses.

No they arent - although their taser lances are arguably long enough to poke a bird in mid flight.

 Wilson wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Dragoons are definitely not anti-flyer but they have their uses.

No they arent - although their taser lances are arguably long enough to poke a bird in mid flight.

^truth...they get the award for longest weapon in the game

 gameandwatch wrote:

 Wilson wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Dragoons are definitely not anti-flyer but they have their uses.

No they arent - although their taser lances are arguably long enough to poke a bird in mid flight.

^truth...they get the award for longest weapon in the game

Longest non-proportional, perhaps. NDK sword and Wraithknight ghostglaive are pretty enormous.

Man imagine if they could assault flyers...it would be like the old joust arcade game in 40k!

And yes, I meant longest in proportion to the owners body. Cause man is that a tiny guy with a huge weapon

 gameandwatch wrote:
Man imagine if they could assault flyers...

GW has heard you - Eldar can do this. Pretty much, anyway, with Swooping Hawks. And with Haywire.

 gameandwatch wrote:

 Wilson wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Dragoons are definitely not anti-flyer but they have their uses.

No they arent - although their taser lances are arguably long enough to poke a bird in mid flight.

^truth...they get the award for longest weapon in the game

It's not the size that counts - it's how you use it.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
Man imagine if they could assault flyers...

GW has heard you - Eldar can do this. Pretty much, anyway, with Swooping Hawks. And with Haywire.

DE scourges not being able to do something similar has always bugged me.

Redheaded stepchild thing I know.

So thoughts guys

Skitarii+ Flesh Tearers Strike force

3 pods, 3 rhinos. Some HQ with +1 strategic(so two rolls)

6 5 man units of Vanguard 3 haywire, 3 plasma
Some CC guys that can go in 1-2 of the pods, whatever floats your fancy

Just a basic outline but I can see it doing some work. Take advantage of the two fire points, mix up what units are going where based on the needs of the enemy army.

Can't do 3 plasma in a unit of 5, but you can do 2 arc rifle and 1 arc pistol.

 ultimentra wrote:
Can't do 3 plasma in a unit of 5, but you can do 2 arc rifle and 1 arc pistol.

Yup.

I think they meant half of their 6 troops squads would be arc squads and half would be plasma squads.

 ultimentra wrote:
Can't do 3 plasma in a unit of 5, but you can do 2 arc rifle and 1 arc pistol.

I meant 3 units of haywire and 3 units of plasma, not 3 per squad lol.

Right! Exactly! Uhhh I totally knew that... was just testing you... XD dang it

So I have a game this weekend against GK/Tau.

I don't have much Skit stuff, so I suppose I'm going to ally with them with my own Tau.

 Verviedi wrote:
So I have a game this weekend against GK/Tau.

I don't have much Skit stuff, so I suppose I'm going to ally with them with my own Tau.

PM me with about how much Skitarii stuff you have, and if you're playing at our shop.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
So I have a game this weekend against GK/Tau.

I don't have much Skit stuff, so I suppose I'm going to ally with them with my own Tau.

PM me with about how much Skitarii stuff you have, and if you're playing at our shop.

Playing at home. Sorry man, I have a party in the middle of the day and won't be able to go.

Works out fine then; you're not playing against the silly allied shenanigans like last weekend.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Works out fine then; you're not playing against the silly allied shenanigans like last weekend.

Last weekend we obliterated the Dark Eldar/Tyranid alliance, but I see where you're going. Fighting CSM/GK/Orks was true hell.

Here's the list I'll use until I have more Skits. I call it "Tautology Club"

Tautology Club v1.0 Total-1750

Combined Arms Detachment- Codex: Tau Empire-
HQ-
Commander (210 pts)
-XV8-02 Crisis 'Iridium' Battlesuit
-Command and Control Node
-Puretide Engram Neurochip
-Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite
-Shield Generator
-Stimulant Injector
-Vectored Retro-Thrusters

Ethereal (50 pts)

Troops-
Fire Warrior Team (179 pts)
-Devilfish

Fire Warrior Team (179 pts)
-Devilfish

Elites-
Crisis Team (171)
-6x Plasma Rifles
-3x Vectored-Retro-Thrusters

Crisis Team (171)
-6x Fusion Blasters
-3x Vectored Retro-Thrusters

Crisis Team (156)
-6x Missile Pod

Fast Attack-
Pathfinder Team (44)

Heavy Support-
Hammerhead Gunship (170)
-Ion Cannon
-Longstrike
-SMS

Maniple Detachment- Codex: Skitarii-

Troops-
Skitarii Rangers (110)
-Transuranic Arquebus
-Omnispex
-Converter Field

Skitarii Vanguard (125)
-2x Plasma Caliver
-Converter Field
-Omnispex

Elites-
Sicaran Infiltrators (185)
-Taser Goad and Flechette Blaster

Alright, so I was brain storming and came up with a few lists. Not really looking for critiques but figured I would give people some ideas.

First list is Ultras/Skitarii/BA Pods

Sang Priest Extra Weapon Auspex
Tac Squad with Hvy Flamer in pod
5x fast attack pods
Tiggy
3x 5 Tac Squad with plasma, combi plasma in pod
2x 3 scout bike squad - Locator Beacon
3x Grav Cents with omni
Skitarii
2x 5 Vanguard with 2x Arc Rifle, 1x Arc Pistol, Omniscope
2x 5 Vanguard with 2x plasma Caliver, Omniscope
1759 out of 1850. Can easily drop the bikes to add in something else.

Second one is

Second list taking advantage of Raptor chapter tactics: Take Ilias Issidon with two units of grav cents with allied skitarii and blood angels. Ilias comes with a locator beacon and shrouded as well as his baller abilities and reserve control. Not to mention rending hurricane bolters on your grav cents...
Lias
2x 5 man scouts in storms
2x3 Grav Cents with Omni
2x5 vanguard arc kitout
2x5 plasma kit out
Blood angels
Sang Priest
5x tac hvy flamer in pod
6x fast attack pod.
1740 - 110 points left

Just some ideas of things that work well with the Skitarii. Either of these lists would eat most of the talked about eldar lists for breakfast.

So I want my warlord to be a vanguard to make the best use of preffered enemy but I'm unsure of what to give him. How do other Admech players kit out their guys?

What I plan to run him with:

10 Vanguard: 3 Plasma, Omnispex

Phosphoenix seems like a good choice for a Vanguard Alpha, IMO.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Phosphoenix seems like a good choice for a Vanguard Alpha, IMO.

It seems too expensive, and the 6" range really hurts, as does rolling one die to hit instead of 3. I can see it's use in pod suicide squads, however.

I put the Phosphoenix on my infiltrator princeps in my killclade.

Yes, I think that is the best placement for the phosphoenix, in a unit of infiltrators who not only have no problem getting to 6 inches away, especially if they go first, but also because they are the most likely to make use of their pistols and enter close combat.

Im sad to see the list you guys are drawing up are basically a whole lot of other stuff, with a splash of skitarii. :C

 gameandwatch wrote:

Im sad to see the list you guys are drawing up are basically a whole lot of other stuff, with a splash of skitarii. :C

Well if one wants to be most competitive they must mix and match.


I wonder what would be the most competitive all Skitarii (or at least mostly Skitarii) force...

So with the castellan stats leak, seems like Phosphor blasters on the Dunecralwer is a waste.

Well, it was already a situational loadout at best, so seeing it go the way of the Dodo doesn't upset me.

Speaking of the Onagar though... only because I don't have my rules in front of me...

Does Skyfire hit Jet-Bikes at full BS? I vaguely recall it hitting flyers, skimmers, and jet-bikes at full BS, but want to be sure. If so, it makes the Icarus Array a wonderful counter to the upcoming wave of Eldar massed bikes.

The best counter is simply refuse the game, and for to's to change their ruling around. Stuff is beyond broken.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Well, it was already a situational loadout at best, so seeing it go the way of the Dodo doesn't upset me.

Speaking of the Onagar though... only because I don't have my rules in front of me...

Does Skyfire hit Jet-Bikes at full BS? I vaguely recall it hitting flyers, skimmers, and jet-bikes at full BS, but want to be sure. If so, it makes the Icarus Array a wonderful counter to the upcoming wave of Eldar massed bikes.

I thought the same thing but after looking it seems that it only mentions skimmers.

It used to mention jetbikes in 6th I believe

Puretarii TAC List I'm looking at running when I have more stuff or the Cult Mech are awful.
If Cult Mech is good, I'll ask my store manager to let me merge the dexes and run units from both factions in one CAD.

First Skitarii List-
(Codex: Skitarii - Maniple Detachment)

Troops-
Skitarii Rangers x10 (200)
-Warlord
-Conversion Field
-3x Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Vanguard x10 (155)
-3x Arc Rifle

Skitarii Vanguard x10 (200)
-3x Plasma Caliver
-Omnispex

Elites-
5x Sicaran Infiltrators (185)
-Taser Goad/Flechette Blaster
-Conversion Field

5x Sicaran Ruststalkers (160)

Fast Attack-
Sydonian Dragoon x2 (90)

Heavy Support-
Onager Dunecrawlers (270)
-2x Icarus Array

Onager Dunecrawlers (240)
-2x Neutron Laser

Total- 1,500

Verveidi check your math again, you only PSID points for 2 plasma calivers. Also warlord in there for preferred enemy to avoid overheat is just about mandatory.

Or use bs 6 and 7 for the two turns you might get to shoot lol

Nobody goes for the conversion field on the Infiltrator princep?

 ultimentra wrote:
Nobody goes for the conversion field on the Infiltrator princep?

I have. The Blind is nice for overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orock wrote:
Verveidi check your math again, you only PSID points for 2 plasma calivers. Also warlord in there for preferred enemy to avoid overheat is just about mandatory.

I don't like the idea of putting Warlord in a suicide squad. He will be in the corner of a building, out of LOS of the entire board, with 9 ablative wounds, 30" away from everything.

Also, my opponent thinks Plasma Calivers are undercosted.

Alright everyone, so I have been taking a close look at the Onager dunewalker and I think it has a serious place in any competitive list with the phospher launcher. Keep it cheap, no extra upgrades, single model units. 105

It is 3 twin-linked str 6 ap3 shots. Lets think about this against the current boogie man - The eldar jetbike, That is a reliable 3 wounds against jetbikes. Now think about this from the eldar players perspective:

It breaks your armor
It allows re-roll charges
It lowers future cover saves by 1
If it kills two that is a leadership test(for a 5 man) or 3(for a 10 man).

All of these are very VERY bad for jetbikes.

Do they jink? I think most eldar players will opt to jink limiting that units firepower for the next turn.

Further, if they are spamming strength 6 it takes a significant amount of fire power to drop each one.

While I am fan of the squadron for the bonus to saves, it limits the above use. I would rather try to force a jink on two-three units and not have carry over wounds instead of being more durable.

Second is the re-roll charges. One important thing to remember is that you get to re-roll your charge if ANY of your declared targets were hit by this. So if you like to multi-assault(like I do) you just declare the lumin target as the last target in the assault, get your re-rolls and if you dont make it to them O well.

I think the only one I would consider squadroning is the neutron laser. You want that save to prevent pens since you cant afford for it to get shaken, otherwise it is useless for a turn. Further whatever you are targetting with it you want the concentrated firepower. The second reason I would consider the neutron laser is for the concussive. That will shutdown a wraithknight long enough for you to get into combat with it and try and kill it before it gets to attacks. In addition it will put some serious hurt on a wraithknight.

Both of these kit outs offer significant answers to many of the issues with the eldar.

Which is more useful? Onager Phosphor spam or Kastelan Phosphor spam?

How does the PE rerolls interact with the BS of 6 or 7? It's the first time I've had that issue come up.

 Verviedi wrote:
Which is more useful? Onager Phosphor spam or Kastelan Phosphor spam?

Kastelan get a lot more shots and are a bit tougher.

6 shots normaly, 9 shots using the protocol.

 Swara wrote:
How does the PE rerolls interact with the BS of 6 or 7? It's the first time I've had that issue come up.

You can only reroll once, so use the best reroll, PE would be hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s instead of hittong on 2s and rerolling for 6s or 5s with bs 6 and 7 respectively.

 Swara wrote:
How does the PE rerolls interact with the BS of 6 or 7? It's the first time I've had that issue come up.

as far as I know it basically negates the added BS past the 2+ since the only way you miss is to roll a 1 at which time the PE kicks in and you get to reroll entirely, but since you can only ever reroll a dice once I doubt you can reroll again for the added BS. Your always better off with the PE since it lets you score the hit on a 2+ reroll instead of the 6+, 5+, or 4+ you would need from the raised BS.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Which is more useful? Onager Phosphor spam or Kastelan Phosphor spam?

Kastelan get a lot more shots and are a bit tougher.

6 shots normaly, 9 shots using the protocol.

Not the most thorough comparison as you have no points costs in there! Let's see... From the leaks I believe it is 270 plus about 50 points for the robots handler? So for ~320 points is the minimum cost for the squad which you get two robots, BS3, 3 TL shots, 3 regular each. Or with the protocol 3 TL, 6 regular each. So either 6 TL, 6 regular, or 6 TL 12 regular.

Three Onagers are 315 (more likely 330 because you'd take the stubber too). That's 9 BS4 shots, plus the Skitariii doctrines that make the BS even higher.

I think you are right, those big silly robots seem to come out ahead.

2 bots and the smith is 290 base for the unit, +30 to upgrade the powerfist to blasters and the shoulder from flamer to blaster for both bots

So 2 bots, 6 shots (3 T/L, 3 non) or 9 shots with the protocol (3 TL 6 not), for 12 or 18 shots

Vs 3 crawlers at 90 points each plus 45 to upgrade them all with phosphor, 315 for 3 without a stubber, for 9 T/L BS 4 shots

Bots are tougness 7, 3+ 5++ with the silly reflect rule and 3 wounds

3 cralwers are 4++ 3 hp av 12/12/11

So cralwer squad has 9 hp total, bot squad has 8 wounds total as smith has 2 but majority toughness 7 that you can cheese with the smiths 2+ armor save if you want.

Its really close, but if it came to that, id use the Dunecrawlers as neutron lasers or Icarus

http://imgur.com/a/PQi9K

Except that the benefit does not care how many shots you put into it, just that you wound. More concentrated units do not actually help with what I am talking about. You use the phosphor as a way to buff other units, not for the damage output itself.

The second thing is that in the context of eldar you want them to jink for the minimum amount of fire power so that you can force as many units as possible to jink killing their damage output. If you have it too concentrated then they will obviously jink with the one unit. If they don't jink then they are losing 2-3 models and reduced cover. either way you win. Combined with an omnispex in most squads you are negating the significance of most cover.

thats why you want to keep it small and cheap, if they decide to kill it then woohoo shots not on your really dangerous units, if they dont ignore it then their units disappear more quickly.

I think we're talking about two different things

My comparison was just pure shooting

Unit of Kastellan vs unit of Dunecrawlers

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I think we're talking about two different things

My comparison was just pure shooting

If you are just looking for damage output, there are much more efficient platforms. You can get a squad with two plasma calivers for 125 fully kitted out. Twice as many shots, plus one strength.

The only reason to take the phospur is for its debuff, and for that there is no reason to concentrate it on 1 target.

 Leth wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I think we're talking about two different things

My comparison was just pure shooting

If you are just looking for damage output, there are much more efficient platforms. You can get a squad with two plasma calivers for 125 fully kitted out. Twice as many shots, plus one strength.

The only reason to take the phospur is for its debuff, and for that there is no reason to concentrate it on 1 target.

Just output vs the two platforms we know that can take the heavy phospor blasters, comparing vanguards to either is apples and oranges.

Except that comparing platforms without looking at the REASON for taking the gun makes any comparison flawed.

My point is that this gun is not taken for its damage output, it is taken for its debuff. So I am looking at it from the angle of "what is the best way to debuff as many units as possible"

Second is that while the robots might overall be better the minimum cost prohibits their easy inclusion in a list. I just took my 1750, 1850, and 2000 point lists and was able to finagle the points around to get 1-2 of the onagers in. for 300 points+ I am now dropping entire units.

However I agree that we are looking at the gun for different reasons. In my lists that debuff provides a HUGE boost, as well as will help me deal with the new eldar. If you don't have many units that will benefit then it doesn't make sense to approach it from that angle.

My biggest problem with concentrating the deployment is that the more shots you are putting into the target the earlier you want the debuff to be applied. at 300-400 points that is a sizable chunk of your army that is not benefiting.

Ill agree that individual onagers are great harass units, granted 3 shots on a over 100 point platform is...meh, they do provide decent area denial with 36" range.

As soon as you have more than 1 onager per squadron, they function instead as delete units instead of buff/harass/debuff units.

The bots are cool, don't get me wrong, but they are definitely just a delete unit. Their purpose is solely maximum casualties, and a hoard of them kept as melee backed up by infiltrators is downright terrifying. The ranged versions, even as just the unit of 2 is as straight forward a delete unit you can get. 12-18 S6 ap3 shots is there for one purpose, and that is to remove a power armor or worse unit per turn. Especially if you keep the ranged canticle on, you just turret up with your 36" range and deny the enemy half the board space.
I think the two units in unison can do some really great things. Individual onagers to give either the melee versions rerolled charged ranges, or to make the ranged ones more effective, or you use the onagers to force msu units to take cover while the bots setup and delete the most dangerous unit each turn.

I like individual onagers personally, the only time I would take them in a unit is a unit of 2 for anti-air duty.

Yea I understand phosphor is a good tagging tool too for more shots with less cover saves, especially -2 from lumagen and the omnispex

I like killy giant robots though

I believe the WD also mentions that the tracked servitors can also take phosphor guns

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Yea I understand phosphor is a good tagging tool too for more shots with less cover saves, especially -2 from lumagen and the omnispex

I like killy giant robots though

I believe the WD also mentions that the tracked servitors can also take phosphor guns

I saw a Gamma Gun on one. That's looking interesting. I'm really liking the Str6 AP2 Armorbane pistols.

I've been out of the game for about a year now so I've only finally just read up on the new Blood Angels dex and its supplements. So basically, due to all those fast attack slots that can be had in the Flesh Tearers supplement (6!), to me, it seems, for now at least lol, that BA + Skitarii is a quite competitive (and very unfluffy lol) combo.

That setup allows for a massive alpha strike. Skitarii supplies the shooty, BA supplies the pods and a beatstick or two through HQs and units. Heck, with scouts as troops, between the pods and the scouts you could even do a null deployment if need be.

Just finished a day of 500pt games with Skitarii, figured I'd report back on some things.

Vanguard are hilariously effective. 10man squad, 2 Arc Rifles (only bought two boxes), and an omnispex served as a very good core to move around. The 6+ FNP was deceptively useful. Cut casualties noticeably, and scout truly minimized the range issues of rad carbines. Trick here, as with the rest of the army, was ensuring I got the first shot - I don't fancy giving too many chances for the enemy to shoot my dudes.

5x rangers w/ two snipers and an omnispex, while not points-efficient, were a versatile unit. Always being able to threaten something was nice. Kept a Lasback in check for a couple turns, made a Ghost Ark think twice, and forced a Chaos Lord to join units he didn't want to be in just to avoid rolling saves. Psychological win if nothing else.

Ruststalkers. Ooooh Ruststalkers. By no means the statistical norm, but these crazy ninja robots slapped down a Dark Eldar Archon (failed a blind test by the Conversion Field and got punked by a Prehensile Dataspike). Dunestrider makes them ABSURDLY fast, grenades + claws give them a very versatile threat range. Again, careful maneuvering keeps them alive much longer (Princeps warlord getting shrouded trait helped a lot) and the invul save is nice to have. Again, statistical anomaly, rolled 4/ 7 6++ against TH/SS terminators. As a one-of (between them and infiltrators) I'd take them every time (but comboing the two is definitely ideal).

And a Syndonian Dragoon. One works wonders at low points (immunity to small-arms fire and all). Can't quite make a call - he either got 7/4 hits or 3/4. Doubtless better in squadrons (ran with the lance). Single phosphor serpenta never did anything, maybe three will - but again, never failed a charge with Dunestrider.

The army feels very glass-cannony without Onagers. Finesse and synergy won the day (3/4 games won, one loss was to PHENOMENAL luck on objective card draws, 5-7 final score, I lost five models and he had five left playing as space marines). My enemies were marines, dark eldar, necrons, and daemonkin.

Excellent report obsidiankatana. Thanks for that.

So this is looking to be one of those rare armies where everything is viable. (except Ballistarii, I stand by that but they may become better.)

I'm currently looking to building a solid core to build my lists around. By analyzing posts in this thread, I have come up with the following.

Vanguard Squad w/ 3x Arc Rifles (Anti-Vehicle and objective taker)

2x 5 man Ranger squads w/ 1x Arquebus each (Stationary objective holders)

Vanguard Squad w/ 3x Plasma Caliver (Gunboat unit, placed in a Rhino or Drop Pod using ally abuse)

Infiltrator Squad w/ Goads + Flechettes (Close assault and objective defense)

Ruststalker Squad (Paired with Infiltrators, same role)

2x Sydonian Dragoons

Useful 950 point core. I can add things to it to tailor to opponent as necessary.

Copied and pasted from my post on Warseer:

OK, so I just played a 1000 point game against my cousins BA list. Since there's a distinct lack of bat reps for Skitarii I'll summarize what happened:

He had (roughly):
HQ - Priest
TROOPS - 2x 5 man Scout Squads with Snipers and HB
FA - 1x 10 man RAS with Melta and Meltabombs (combat squadded)
FA - 3x Land Speeders with 2x HB each
HS - 2x Predators with TLLC and HB sponsons

My list:
5x Rangers - 2x Arq
10x Vanguard - Warlord, Conversion Field, Phoenix, Taser Goad, 2x Calivers, Omnispex
10x Vanguard - Refractor Field, 2x Arc Rifles, 1x Arc Pistol, 1x Arc Maul
2x Dragoons - Lances
5x Ruststalkers - Datapsike
1x Onager - Neutron, Extra HStubber
1x Onager - Neutron, Extra HStubber

We played long Crusade with 5 objectives and he went first. Suffice to say it went very badly for me. It was essentially a paper (me) vs scissors (him) game. There was heavy bolter shots flying all over the place, and they absolutely decimated my infantry. Even in cover if you have to roll for 8 or 9 wounds from HB you're in a world of trouble. My dice rolling was diabolical, but even if it had been statistically average, I think I would have struggled.

I lost my Rangers and one of the Dragoons early, whilst the Vanguards whiffed their rolls for moving through terrain and did nothing until the Land Speeders danced out from behind cover and shredded them over two turns. One of the Dragoons hugged cover and charged a Predator and removed it in one turn, which was impressive! Before my first Onager was deleted by Melta ASM one shotting it, it removed a combat squad of RAS who were in cover and took a hull point off one Predator. These guys are should be a staple of ANY list. I'd love to get two more of them and run 2x units of 2. The second Onager hid in cover on the far corner of the board, away from the action, and slaughtered a unit of Scouts and chipped and failed miserably at trying to remove the second Pred.

My infantry hugged cover for most of the game in an effort to make a last ditch rush for the objectives, or to pop out and use my doctrina for the +3 BS when an opportune target presented itself. Unfortunately the far more maneuverable BA list just didn't allow them to do that, and they were pretty ineffective for the whole game. My Ruststalkers followed behind them, but tried to scoot out from cover to get into an optimal assault position and whiffed their movement dice and were thusly exterminated by a hail of sniper rifle and heavy bolter shots (I failed 6 out of 7 FNP rolls in one round, after not making a single 5+ cover save on them!).

It was a slaughter, though I believe I learned a lot from it. This is some quick bullet points on what I think is crucial for an all-Skitarii force:
1. Glass cannon is an understatement. They drop like flies, even when in cover. AP4 weapons are generally fairly high S and moderate to high ROF. Autocannons and HB are the hard counter for our infantry, and Ironstriders/Dragoons don't like them when there's tons of them either. I would hate to play against Tau with Burst Cannons, MPods and SMS! I think our guys being T4 would be really nice, though they would need to cost a few more pts per model.
2. Onagers do the heavy lifting. One with an Icarus array for AA duty at higher points levels would be handy, but they should essentially always be taken with the Neutron Laser and the extra HS. The HS force saves on heavy infantry, and the AP1 blast is great for pretty much everything. With the right use of doctrines, they can pretty much never scatter.
3. We have nothing to tank. Onager's aren't TO bad, but AV12 and a meager invulnerable save is not that great. At higher points levels and units of 2 or 3, especially if you take one or all of them with IWND, they could tank a bit better. Even at 1k points I think a Knight is almost mandatory as a huge fire magnet to allow our slow infantry to get into good positions.
4. I don't rate Ruststalkers. I wish I'd taken Infiltrators instead, as they could've made a real mess of the Scout Squads and the Land Speeders by popping up behind them. I could see RS being good with a transport (assault ramp required) though...Even with 2 wounds they just go down like flies, and can be instant deathed by krak missiles to boot.
5. Dragoons are excellent - if they make combat. They're damn near impossible to hide behind terrain, though the incense cloud mitigates that somewhat. Try to keep them away from anything S4 with volume of attacks (i.e. any Marine squad) or Krak/Melta bombs (i.e. pretty much any Marine squad lol). They really enjoy murderising light infantry (not big blobs though - think Heavy Weapon Teams, Fire Warriors, Vets etc) and are positively daemonic against the rear armour of any vehicles (S8 with 4 attacks on the charge, ouch!).
6. Rangers - bring them in units of 10 with either 3 Arq'd or none. I think with the Arq's you either go hard or go home, and they die to easily to be in squads of 5. And to be fair the Galvanic Rifle is pretty nasty on a cover hugging camping unit as is. Precision Shots can put force saves on characters or special weapons with decent rolls.
7. Vanguards - need cover! AP4 is pretty easy to get in most lists, and even weapons with high ROF that don't negate their armour save will force you to make enough saves because of T3 that you may be relying on the near-useless 6+ FNP. If there was a Vanguard/Ranger only formation (maybe 2 units of Vanguard and 1 unit of Rangers) that gave them 5+ FNP and maybe move through cover, or even Dunestrider, they'd be far more formidable.

Right, sorry about the wall of text, but that's my conclusions from the games I've played so far. They're definitely an interesting army to play: less maneuverable than DE, but arguably more firepower, with the same tissue paper defence. It will be really interesting to see how the Cult Mechanicus units enhance this list. If Praetorians are T4 and troops (which I've read rumors indicating that they are), they will most likely make Rangers redundant. Castellan spam with the phosphor blaster seems like an auto-include, as they can tank and delete a lot of units in one round of shooting. A unit of them with fists for counter attack would be really interesting as well. Hide them behind your battle line, or even use them as the fire magnet, and they'd be a pretty intimidating assault target.

As painful as the last game was, I look forward to trying them out against a TAC list, and not AP4 spam. Hopefully my luck holds up next time as well!

Thanks for the report, exsanguis! I agree with your opinions on many of the units.

So my first (proper) game is going to be today (I hope!). I am going to be using my Tautology Club list against a GK list consisting of the following.
GK - Nemesis Strike Force


He'll most likely ally in some random Fire Warriors for objectivs camping, but if he doesn't bring an HQ with them I can deny his deepstrikes due to the game being Unbound.
Everything starts on the board except for the NDK. Paladins are in the Land Raider.

Due to the sheer amount of Daemonhammers and AP4, I'm not counting on any of my Skits getting saves or FNP.
Most of my army is Tau, so I will be able to kill large quantities of MEQs each turn.

Lots of people note that the Skitarii need a centerpiece model in order to draw fire. I've been tweaking lists of all kinds of point costs lately to combine my Steel Host formation with Skitarii. I think 5 AV14 chassis ought to do the trick!

The Steel Host-
HQ-
Tank Commander Executioner (dat delicious Preferred Enemy rule) w/ LC and PC
Executioner squadronmate w/ LC and PC

Hydra
Squad 1-
LRBT (stock)
Squad 2-
LR Exterminator w/ MM and LC
Squad 3-
LR Eradicator w/ HB Boat

This formation serves as the base. At 1500 I would take from Skitarii-

Rangers-
5 man, 2x TA sniper, Omnispex
Vanguard-
7 Man, 2x Caliver, Omnispex (had some extra points for 2 guys)
Vanguard-
5 Man, 2x Arc Rifle, 1x Arc Pistol

Infiltrators-
5 man. (Not sure if I should take Conversion Field or Infoslave skull here).

@ 1850
Rangers-
5 man 2 TA sniper, Omnispex
Vanguard-
5 man 2 Arc Rifle, Arc Pistol
Vanguard-
10 man 2 Caliver, Omnispex

Infiltrators-
Infoslave/Conv. Field

Blood Angels Allied Detachment-
HQ- Techmarine
2x Servo Arm servitors

Troops-
5 man bolter scouts

Elite-
6 man Death Company, 1 power fist

Fast-
1 Drop Pod

The tactics for both is pretty obvious, but the 1500 point list would need to be run more defensively than offensively since the Skitarii are going on foot. I would have taken another DC to bring the squad to 7 but the list would have been over by 1 measly point, so I took 2 servitors instead. Never know when that repair might come in handy for those Leman Russ tanks.

Mass AV 14, that'll sure take the focus off of the Skitarii lol!

With other detachments, especially two other detachments I would not bother with any CC elements from the Sktarii codex. Better to just focus on the shooting I think.

Also rather than 5 bolter guys how about 5 scouts with sniper rifles and camo cloaks?

Super Newb wrote:
Mass AV 14, that'll sure take the focus off of the Skitarii lol!

With other detachments, especially two other detachments I would not bother with any CC elements from the Sktarii codex. Better to just focus on the shooting I think.

Also rather than 5 bolter guys how about 5 scouts with sniper rifles and camo cloaks?

If by CC elements you mean Infiltrators, they aren't exactly dedicated CC, they aren't a beatstick anyway. They're more of a debuff unit that's meant to tie up, distract, or disable enemy units that are major threats to the rest of the army, a devastator squad for example or a Laspred, they could easily destroy the Laspred with the Tasergoads, and at the very least tie up the Devs in CC or neuter them by reducing their stats with the neurostatic aura.

I went with 5 bolter scouts because the camo cloaks and sniper rifles cost points I didn't have I would rather have another threat for the opponent to consider in the Death Company squad.

 ultimentra wrote:
I went with 5 bolter scouts because the camo cloaks and sniper rifles cost points I didn't have

I thought a bare tactical squad was the same price as 5 scouts with camo cloaks and sniper rifles?

Edit - Whoops, I can't read, you said bolter scouts lol.

 ultimentra wrote:
If by CC elements you mean Infiltrators, they aren't exactly dedicated CC, they aren't a beatstick anyway. They're more of a debuff unit that's meant to tie up, distract, or disable enemy units that are major threats to the rest of the army, a devastator squad for example or a Laspred, they could easily destroy the Laspred with the Tasergoads, and at the very least tie up the Devs in CC or neuter them by reducing their stats with the neurostatic aura.

I went with 5 bolter scouts because the camo cloaks and sniper rifles cost points I didn't have I would rather have another threat for the opponent to consider in the Death Company squad.

The catch is that Taser Infiltrators have a big pile of S6 strikes. Sure, it's all AP-, but against light armor hordes (Orks, Guard, also Guardians/Kabalite Warriors), you'll pretty much crush them in combat. Neurostatic Aura makes Orks/Guardians/Warriors WS3 instead of 4 (and in the case of the Guardians/Warriors, I4), allowing the Infiltrators to beat the gak out of any mediocre-save infantry unit.

5 Infiltrators with Taser Goads will have 16 attacks base- on the charge, this is 21. There aren't a lot of units which are WS5, most are either WS3 or 4, which means the Infiltrators will hit on 3's due to Neurostatic Aura. That's 14 hits base, plus around 4 more from the Taser trait, for about 16 hits, around 12-14 wounds, probably kills around 8-12 enemy models (save dependent). Against, say, Trukk Boyz or MechGuard, you'll decimate-to-wipe a squad every time the Infiltrators get into combat. Incidentally, this is a great reason to charge even a small squad of Infiltrators into larger (~20 models) blobs of horde infantry- you'll crush them just fast enough to come out of combat on your own turn, preventing the "stand around and be shot in the face" problem that happens when you completely overkill a unit in combat.

In a 3 detatchment set up with Skitarii as the primary, list your 2 first choice secondary detatchments.

Im torn between Assasins- Culexus, Inquisitor - Coteaz and Knights.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
If by CC elements you mean Infiltrators, they aren't exactly dedicated CC, they aren't a beatstick anyway. They're more of a debuff unit that's meant to tie up, distract, or disable enemy units that are major threats to the rest of the army, a devastator squad for example or a Laspred, they could easily destroy the Laspred with the Tasergoads, and at the very least tie up the Devs in CC or neuter them by reducing their stats with the neurostatic aura.

I went with 5 bolter scouts because the camo cloaks and sniper rifles cost points I didn't have I would rather have another threat for the opponent to consider in the Death Company squad.

The catch is that Taser Infiltrators have a big pile of S6 strikes. Sure, it's all AP-, but against light armor hordes (Orks, Guard, also Guardians/Kabalite Warriors), you'll pretty much crush them in combat. Neurostatic Aura makes Orks/Guardians/Warriors WS3 instead of 4 (and in the case of the Guardians/Warriors, I4), allowing the Infiltrators to beat the gak out of any mediocre-save infantry unit.

5 Infiltrators with Taser Goads will have 16 attacks base- on the charge, this is 21. There aren't a lot of units which are WS5, most are either WS3 or 4, which means the Infiltrators will hit on 3's due to Neurostatic Aura. That's 14 hits base, plus around 4 more from the Taser trait, for about 16 hits, around 12-14 wounds, probably kills around 8-12 enemy models (save dependent). Against, say, Trukk Boyz or MechGuard, you'll decimate-to-wipe a squad every time the Infiltrators get into combat. Incidentally, this is a great reason to charge even a small squad of Infiltrators into larger (~20 models) blobs of horde infantry- you'll crush them just fast enough to come out of combat on your own turn, preventing the "stand around and be shot in the face" problem that happens when you completely overkill a unit in combat.

Remember there are doctrine impertitives. You will almost never be charging in with WS4, as you will have either buffed WS at the expense of BS or buffed BS at the expense of WS. The only case in which you will have WS 4 is if you used the +1BS doctrine that turn.

 Exergy wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
If by CC elements you mean Infiltrators, they aren't exactly dedicated CC, they aren't a beatstick anyway. They're more of a debuff unit that's meant to tie up, distract, or disable enemy units that are major threats to the rest of the army, a devastator squad for example or a Laspred, they could easily destroy the Laspred with the Tasergoads, and at the very least tie up the Devs in CC or neuter them by reducing their stats with the neurostatic aura.

I went with 5 bolter scouts because the camo cloaks and sniper rifles cost points I didn't have I would rather have another threat for the opponent to consider in the Death Company squad.

The catch is that Taser Infiltrators have a big pile of S6 strikes. Sure, it's all AP-, but against light armor hordes (Orks, Guard, also Guardians/Kabalite Warriors), you'll pretty much crush them in combat. Neurostatic Aura makes Orks/Guardians/Warriors WS3 instead of 4 (and in the case of the Guardians/Warriors, I4), allowing the Infiltrators to beat the gak out of any mediocre-save infantry unit.

5 Infiltrators with Taser Goads will have 16 attacks base- on the charge, this is 21. There aren't a lot of units which are WS5, most are either WS3 or 4, which means the Infiltrators will hit on 3's due to Neurostatic Aura. That's 14 hits base, plus around 4 more from the Taser trait, for about 16 hits, around 12-14 wounds, probably kills around 8-12 enemy models (save dependent). Against, say, Trukk Boyz or MechGuard, you'll decimate-to-wipe a squad every time the Infiltrators get into combat. Incidentally, this is a great reason to charge even a small squad of Infiltrators into larger (~20 models) blobs of horde infantry- you'll crush them just fast enough to come out of combat on your own turn, preventing the "stand around and be shot in the face" problem that happens when you completely overkill a unit in combat.

Remember there are doctrine impertitives. You will almost never be charging in with WS4, as you will have either buffed WS at the expense of BS or buffed BS at the expense of WS. The only case in which you will have WS 4 is if you used the +1BS doctrine that turn.

This ^ is why I am still not sure if Infiltrators are better on the board turn 1 for that debuff, or if they are better outflanking.

 Wilson wrote:
In a 3 detatchment set up with Skitarii as the primary, list your 2 first choice secondary detatchments.

Im torn between Assasins- Culexus, Inquisitor - Coteaz and Knights.

Blood Angels beats all of those out. Specifically the formation that gives you 5 or 6 FA slots (so 5 or 6 pods if you want)

Rhinos or Pods for Skitarii?

 Verviedi wrote:
Rhinos or Pods for Skitarii?

I'm thinking both here actually. For a larger point game where most troops come from the Skitarii Maniple, I would say 1 pod, plus 2 Rhinos, or 3 pods and 2 rhinos (going up the point cost ladder of course) seems appropriate to me. 1 Rhino is a target, whereas 2+ are redundancy, the same goes for your drop pod squads. Though this does mean your single pod squad will likely be forfeit after they do their damage. This is my plan anyway. I have 1 pod already, going to be picking up a couple of Rhinos once the new Space Marine stuff either pans out or goes the vaporware route. Glad I actually hit the pause button on my plans for a Sternguard squad in favor of waiting for the Admech rumors to pan out.

Also, anyone else notice that the 2x Arquebus, Omnispex Ranger squad is actually the same point cost as a 2x Caliver, Omnispex Vanguard squad at 125 for 5 man? Some food for thought.

Super Newb wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
In a 3 detatchment set up with Skitarii as the primary, list your 2 first choice secondary detatchments.

Im torn between Assasins- Culexus, Inquisitor - Coteaz and Knights.

Blood Angels beats all of those out. Specifically the formation that gives you 5 or 6 FA slots (so 5 or 6 pods if you want)

Yep, I like Skitarii + BA + Culexus. You can drop in a bunch of pods of Skitarii and a Culexus for any psychic deathstars. The best part about this army is that you can rotate which pods come down first to get the best weapons for the job. Interestingly even 10 naked Vanguard coming in from a pod can be nasty infantry killers.

Alternatively I was thinking of Skitarii + Assassinorum Execution Force + Coteaz. That is a 5+ reroll to seize, so seize initiative more than 50% of the time. With all of the infiltrate and scouting going on in the Skitarii forces you can hit pretty hard. Still I think this is more of a curiosity as the ~25% of the time you don't go first are going to hurt really bad. I really like the infiltrators and ruststalkers but it is just too easy to kill them unless the skitarii player goes first. I have been contemplating several different strategies to toughen this army up but I have not been satisfied. I am do like to mess around with cypher + ruststalkers and inquisitors w/ nades and hammer hand attached to vanguard. Not so sure if it is entirely worthwhile but it has been fun.

Just played a tournament with allied skitarii


You want pods. I am now upping it to two haywire squads and a plasma squad.....so good.

My ad mech army is walker based, using 4 squads of 6 Dragoons and 5 squads of ironstriders (varying size) using maniple and cavalier formation.

Has anyone else had any thoughts on lances vs snipers on the dragoons?

I have tried running 4 squads of lancers, 4 squads of snipers and 2 squads of each- all 3 seem to work and yet all have weaknesses.

Lances are all round great vs any target, be it a knight or a SM bike. There are some units in 40k you can't touch like 2+ rerollable ones. Some fast units like jetbikes can also be difficult to catch. 4 squads with these means you dominate most games melee wise IF you can get them into combat .

The snipers were something I ignored until trying them out once and have been intrigued by them since. They are fantastic against armoured units and even things like jetbikes will be worried if you roll multiple 6s. The cavalier formation also is pretty nifty since it allows reroll to wound vs a squad so the sniper rule becomes even better against them.

The ability to pick off units from range with snipers has been very useful , however they can't really hurt tanks with them yet alone Knights . So by taking snipers you really hurt the anti av quality of the list .

Thoughts? What's everyone else's experiences been with them?

Jpr wrote:
My ad mech army is walker based, using 4 squads of 6 Dragoons and 5 squads of ironstriders (varying size) using maniple and cavalier formation.

I wish I had your dispossable income. That's €228 for each dragoon squad so the 4 dragoon squads alone clock in just above €900

Meanwhile, I'm super-excited I am able to afford 2 (models, not squadrons).

Jpr wrote:
My ad mech army is walker based, using 4 squads of 6 Dragoons and 5 squads of ironstriders (varying size) using maniple and cavalier formation.

Has anyone else had any thoughts on lances vs snipers on the dragoons?

I have tried running 4 squads of lancers, 4 squads of snipers and 2 squads of each- all 3 seem to work and yet all have weaknesses.

Lances are all round great vs any target, be it a knight or a SM bike. There are some units in 40k you can't touch like 2+ rerollable ones. Some fast units like jetbikes can also be difficult to catch. 4 squads with these means you dominate most games melee wise IF you can get them into combat .

The snipers were something I ignored until trying them out once and have been intrigued by them since. They are fantastic against armoured units and even things like jetbikes will be worried if you roll multiple 6s. The cavalier formation also is pretty nifty since it allows reroll to wound vs a squad so the sniper rule becomes even better against them.

The ability to pick off units from range with snipers has been very useful , however they can't really hurt tanks with them yet alone Knights . So by taking snipers you really hurt the anti av quality of the list .

Thoughts? What's everyone else's experiences been with them?

I need to see this for myself.

How many dragoons?? Lol

 Wilson wrote:
How many dragoons?? Lol

24.
Sounds like fun.
$1200 for 1080 points.

I'm using 24 dragoons and 10-12 ironstriders depending on points.

The models are the dust tactic walkers with some conversion-they do the job. I bought them for £9 each from wayland in their sale which is approximately $13.50 dollars. I also had to buy some bases from ebay and lots of bits (with some trades from friends)...it cost approximately 375ish which isn't too unreasonable. There is no way I could have afforded them at gw prices!!

I mean I was largely considering doing 12 dragoons, they are quite cheap points wise. I wish the standard detachment allowed 3-4 fast attack choices, but alas one must use multiple formations/ detachments to get more than 2 units of them.

The snipers are interesting, can be good, can be bad, but with a change in the meta where jezzail dragoons will come into their own is in the msu environment. Radium sniper rifles against an msu army is really quite terrifying, as a good roll can cripple to wipe out a squad. If you are to use the ironstrider formation, I would suggest your lance dragoons go there, and start with 2 units of snipers on the board. Gets your melee units in the backfield (possibly first turn) and allows your snipers to soften targets before all your melee units hit the lines likely second turn.

For 1000 points, I have to ally in the rest of my firepower as all I have for Skitarii is 2 boxes worth of the infantry and a 5 man squad of infiltrators. Here's what I have so far-

Rangers-
5 Man 2 Arquebus, Omnispex
Vanguard-
5 Man 2 Arc Rifle, 1 Arc Pistol
Vanguard-
10 Man 2 Plasma, Omnispex

BA Allies-
HQ- Techmarine
Troops- 5 man bolter scouts
Fast- Drop Pod

So, at this point I have a couple options.
1) Ally in some Guard-
I can fit a Lord Commissar, a naked Vet Squad, and a LRBT.
2) Take a 9 man Death Company Squad with JP, 2 Power Fists and a Power Sword.

Which one do I take? I can't make up my mind haha.

I would say ditch the 2 Arquebus and use those points elsewhere, for one. They've so garishly expensive. It doesn't mean they don't work, but their price in points is just bad. Doing that would let you upgrade your BA Allies to 5-man Tacticals with a Sanguinary Priest instead of a Tech Marine. Suddenly they get a bunch more durable as objective holders, and can actually do a little work in combat.

Are you taking the Arquebus just for wysiwyg? I think for now most players would, in casual play, let you proxy those two as any other (better) special weapon, if you are consistent in always measuring from the bases correctly/similarly.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I would say ditch the 2 Arquebus and use those points elsewhere, for one. They've so garishly expensive. It doesn't mean they don't work, but their price in points is just bad. Doing that would let you upgrade your BA Allies to 5-man Tacticals with a Sanguinary Priest instead of a Tech Marine. Suddenly they get a bunch more durable as objective holders, and can actually do a little work in combat.

Are you taking the Arquebus just for wysiwyg? I think for now most players would, in casual play, let you proxy those two as any other (better) special weapon, if you are consistent in always measuring from the bases correctly/similarly.

Yea I have the Arquebus's modeled because they look really awesome. Taking the priest and Tacs instead of scouts is an idea. Perhaps I will do this after I field the arquebus and inevitably get disappointed by its lackluster performance.

My plans are eventually to get 1 more Skitarii box and a crab tank to fill out those points in the future.

 ultimentra wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I would say ditch the 2 Arquebus and use those points elsewhere, for one. They've so garishly expensive. It doesn't mean they don't work, but their price in points is just bad. Doing that would let you upgrade your BA Allies to 5-man Tacticals with a Sanguinary Priest instead of a Tech Marine. Suddenly they get a bunch more durable as objective holders, and can actually do a little work in combat.

Are you taking the Arquebus just for wysiwyg? I think for now most players would, in casual play, let you proxy those two as any other (better) special weapon, if you are consistent in always measuring from the bases correctly/similarly.

Yea I have the Arquebus's modeled because they look really awesome. Taking the priest and Tacs instead of scouts is an idea. Perhaps I will do this after I field the arquebus and inevitably get disappointed by its lackluster performance.

My plans are eventually to get 1 more Skitarii box and a crab tank to fill out those points in the future.

I would rather have another 5 Rangers than 2 aquebuses. 5 more guys does about the same damage, but can be on another part of the map and take twice the amount to kill.

 ultimentra wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I would say ditch the 2 Arquebus and use those points elsewhere, for one. They've so garishly expensive. It doesn't mean they don't work, but their price in points is just bad. Doing that would let you upgrade your BA Allies to 5-man Tacticals with a Sanguinary Priest instead of a Tech Marine. Suddenly they get a bunch more durable as objective holders, and can actually do a little work in combat.

Are you taking the Arquebus just for wysiwyg? I think for now most players would, in casual play, let you proxy those two as any other (better) special weapon, if you are consistent in always measuring from the bases correctly/similarly.

Yea I have the Arquebus's modeled because they look really awesome. Taking the priest and Tacs instead of scouts is an idea. Perhaps I will do this after I field the arquebus and inevitably get disappointed by its lackluster performance.

My plans are eventually to get 1 more Skitarii box and a crab tank to fill out those points in the future.

Oh, I get it. :-) I built my two Arquebus' too, knowing i'd never use them, but because they look so cool. :-p I couldn't resist. But in casual play, they're always more Arc Rifles, or Plasma Caliver's thus far. :-p

So via some fun with a calculator, I've thought this setup up for Skitarii troops.

10x Vanguard
-3x Plasma

10x Vanguard
-3x Arc
-Arc Pistol

5x Rangers
-1x Arquebus

5x Rangers
-2x Arquebus

Add Omnispexes and survivability upgrades as necessary. Vanguards get Rhinos or Pods. Rangers sit on objectives trolling Wraiths.

The lack of battle reports and actual in game advice in this thread is appalling... So I'll give my two cents after playing with my Skitarii for the first time.

Had an impromptu "Apocalypse" game against an Ultramarine Company and some other assorted SM to fill out points to 5k. I was allied with SoB/GK. Had I planned for a true apocalypse game (they had the UM Chapter formations rules and a STR D Orbital Bombardment apocalypse asset), I would have used some formations, but I felt we fared well against the SM. I will say the SM players were rather inexperienced and didn't know the intricacies of 40k rules, let alone the rules for their own models.

My list was as follows:

10 Rangers
10 Rangers
10 vanguard, phosphor pistol, 2 Plasma Culivers
10 Vanguard, arc pistol and 2 arc guns

2 Sydonian Dragoons with lance

5 Infiltrators w/ swords and stubcarbine, 4++ on the character

Knight w/ battlecannon

AM:
4 Vet squads in Chimeras, 2 with 3 plasma, 2 with 3 melta, carapce armor upgrade
2 Wyverns w/ camo netting
Pask in punisher w/ heavy bolters, squadroned with an Eradicator w/ heavy bolters

My Knight was taken down by Dev squad fire and the orbital bombardment on their turn, so he only drew fire for a turn and was only able to put 2 hull points on 2 rhinos first turn. I do feel like Skitarii need something that can take a lot of shooting while the rest of the army sets up for a turn or two. A Knight Titan should fit the bill nicely, or AV 14 with guard or SM.
My rangers hugged cover in ruins, and were only able to take pot shots at an advancing SM wave that got annihilated by my wyverns (48 wounds on 2.5 squads they crammed into a building, it was glorious). I maybe got 2-3 precision shots rapid fire range, and against a 3+ armor save, they weren't going to do much. I think Rangers will really shine against Guard and Xenos though.
Vanguard absolutely destroyed SM squads that got in range. Their ROF and Rad Poisoning rules make up for low AP. Didn't get to shoot at a vehicle with the Arc Rifles because once we opened up and started taking out Rhinos and Predators in 1 turn, they started to hang back.

Dragoons..... I can't speak highly enough about Dragoons. Fast as hell, Don't scout them, you have a solid chance of a turn 1 charge if people are deployed on the deployment line. They did work against 3 Rhinos and a Predator. I don't think my opponents knew what they were capable of and didn't shoot at them at all, which was a mistake. My Dragoons multi charged 2 Rhinos in a choke point, wrecked both, and trapped half of the SM company into a table corner (ripe pickings for my Wyverns). I would say an Skitarii list needs at least 2 of these, I'm looking into getting 2-4 more to run 2 squads of 2 or 2 full squads of 3. They'll die to any concentrated fire, FW rapid fire range comes to mind, but should be able to pop most transports with ease.

Infiltrators also did work. I would have run Rust stalkers as well, but they weren't put together yet.... I infiltrated these guys in the center of the board behind LOS terrain and just waited. SM drop pods landed next to them, survived a round of shooting with 1 wound taken, and then killed 2 tac squads in 2 game turns with only losing another wound. These guys are your bully unit. Use them like terminators, pick on something that can't fight back well. They will melt against any other dedicated assault unit, AP4 or STR 8. I think they will excel in mutilating SM squads in the back field, or popping up on unsuspecting back field objective holders. Somehow getting them Preferred enemy would be amazing. Would be great to get in the whole army.

Hope this gives some insight for everyone else. I feel like with the new AM stuff coming out, they might fill some of the holes in the Skitarii range. We'll just have to see the rules for everything. And a transport would be nice... Edit: I took omnispexes on everything I could.

Thanks Wingeds... I do appreciate your getting some solid experience down for us to absorb.

 Wingeds wrote:

10 Rangers
10 Rangers
10 vanguard, phosphor pistol, 2 Plasma Culivers
10 Vanguard, arc pistol and 2 arc guns

I agree on keeping the rangers plain. I might want to run 5 man squads instead of 10.
For Vanguard. Why not have 3 of each special. 3 arc guns is much better than 2 arc guns and a arc pistol

 Wingeds wrote:

5 Infiltrators w/ swords and stubcarbine, 4++ on the character

Taser and pistol is better at just about everything

 Wingeds wrote:

Knight w/ battlecannon

Do you prefer the battlecannon to the meltablast?

I don't have a ton of time to post anything in depth, but I would like to echo a few of the above points.

1. Dragoons really are so much better than they seem at a glance. They do work, but are unassuming, and thus usually left low on the opponents priority list.

2. Ally in Pods/Rhinos/etc and Skitarii become a whole different army. Vanguard are, IMO one of the best troops in the entire game. Decked out for Haywire, or Plasma, and given BS 6/7 and Drop-Pods, they can cause debilitating damage to the opponent.

3. Phosphor/Lumingen + Omnispex + an allied in Auspex MELTS bikes... Vanguard, once again, with be MVPs.

 SirDonlad wrote:
I much prefer the ranger heads, but i feel like there isn't enough respect being given for the humble rad-carbine - on a six to wound you get two automatic wounds and it's assault3! so ten guys put out 30 shots? for 100pts!?

Am i missing something here - or is that epic for the points?

18" range is their downside. No transport also hurts. They will get mowed down before they get close.

I mean they are pretty awesome basic troops. Compare them to DE Kabalites and it's commical how much better they are. But they arent game breaking.

Scout mitigates the range issue very handily but it's true - Skitarii without transports are very reliant on getting first turn to get good shots off.

So how do you guys think the new Cult Mechanicus things will end up synergizing with Skitarii? I'm hoping for more resilient units, such as the Kastelans.

Strangely enough, I can see Kastelans actually synergizing with Infiltrators in CC. The Infils drop the enemy unit's WS, and soften up the enemy with their guns, making the Kastelans' low attacks value mean less, and make the enemies hit on 4s on the low-WS robots, and the Kastelan phosphor blaster helps the Infiltrator get their charges in even more effectively.

The only problem I can see with this is that you would probably want to ditch the Fists on the Kastelans to get more shots, but that helps the Infiltrators even more to mop up the units that your Phosphor Blasters damaged. In addition, Kastelans are very slow, and it would be difficult for them to keep up with the fast Infltrators. I will definitely have to test this in-game.

Thank you Wingeds, your post makes me want to pick up 2 Dragoons sooner as a opposed to later.

Also, does anyone know what the base size will be for the Cult Mech. Kataphron destroyers? I am hoping that I'll be able to use my thallax as a proxy.

 Verviedi wrote:
So how do you guys think the new Cult Mechanicus things will end up synergizing with Skitarii? I'm hoping for more resilient units, such as the Kastelans.

Strangely enough, I can see Kastelans actually synergizing with Infiltrators in CC. The Infils drop the enemy unit's WS, and soften up the enemy with their guns, making the Kastelans' low attacks value mean less, and make the enemies hit on 4s on the low-WS robots, and the Kastelan phosphor blaster helps the Infiltrator get their charges in even more effectively.

The only problem I can see with this is that you would probably want to ditch the Fists on the Kastelans to get more shots, but that helps the Infiltrators even more to mop up the units that your Phosphor Blasters damaged. In addition, Kastelans are very slow, and it would be difficult for them to keep up with the fast Infltrators. I will definitely have to test this in-game.

I'll trade the fists every time. Kastelans have an MC unit type, yeah? Means they come stock with smash. S6 AP2 is good enough most of the time for me. S10 is for vehicle or anti-MC duty, which are covered by Arc Rifles and Rad Carbines respectively. Not to mention Neutron Lasers and whatever goodies the Servitors end up rolling in with. But the Kastelans concern me. The points cost is oppressively high for the damage output. You're paying a premium for survivability on them, and they don't quite have the damage output to warrant targeting them (imo).

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
So how do you guys think the new Cult Mechanicus things will end up synergizing with Skitarii? I'm hoping for more resilient units, such as the Kastelans.

Strangely enough, I can see Kastelans actually synergizing with Infiltrators in CC. The Infils drop the enemy unit's WS, and soften up the enemy with their guns, making the Kastelans' low attacks value mean less, and make the enemies hit on 4s on the low-WS robots, and the Kastelan phosphor blaster helps the Infiltrator get their charges in even more effectively.

The only problem I can see with this is that you would probably want to ditch the Fists on the Kastelans to get more shots, but that helps the Infiltrators even more to mop up the units that your Phosphor Blasters damaged. In addition, Kastelans are very slow, and it would be difficult for them to keep up with the fast Infltrators. I will definitely have to test this in-game.

I'll trade the fists every time. Kastelans have an MC unit type, yeah? Means they come stock with smash. S6 AP2 is good enough most of the time for me. S10 is for vehicle or anti-MC duty, which are covered by Arc Rifles and Rad Carbines respectively. Not to mention Neutron Lasers and whatever goodies the Servitors end up rolling in with. But the Kastelans concern me. The points cost is oppressively high for the damage output. You're paying a premium for survivability on them, and they don't quite have the damage output to warrant targeting them (imo).

I agree, I think Kastelans will either end up being a style points unit, or the target of some insane combo we don't see yet and end up being an auto-take like Centurions ended up being. They're really expensive.

Most likely some Canticle of the Omnissiah combined with formation is going to buff the ever-living hell out of them, and the meta shall cry tears of blood.

The fact that the canticles take place in the turn after declaration makes them a very choreographed unit.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
The fact that the canticles take place in the turn after declaration makes them a very choreographed unit.

Protocols, not canticles*

Canticles of the Omnissiah appear to be different than the programming thing; that's the Kastelan Battle Protocols. We still don't know what the Canticles are yet (I think).

Currently I also think that you need to switch out both the fists and the flamer for the shots. It makes them more expensive, but then they actually have significant ranged threat, which as a slow 6" move MC you really need to do anything. Without that, they can effectively be completely ignored unless Canticles can give them a speed boost. With the guns, they have an interesting ranged profile, that's actually kind of good against the DREADED ELDAR GUARDIAN JETBIKE. S6 AP3 that reduces cover if they get a kill is about as good as you can ask for against Eldar Jetbikes (well it's not Ignores Cover, but you can't have everything in life). From a no-extra-models unit that's fully Phosphor, that's 12 shots, half of which are TL. It's still not a lot of firepower out of a Heavy Support Slot, but then again, Skitarii as a whole are really good in firepower but not in survivability, so this actually provides something that can take a hit or two. The other thing that the mass S6 AP3 does is help to counter Flying Hive Tyrants, which Skitarii as a whole don't seem like they have a really good answer to in-faction.

I also agree that S10 is largely unnecessary because of the prevalence of Haywire in Skitarii (that is, if that carries over into Mechanicus or we just see them ally all the time)

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
So how do you guys think the new Cult Mechanicus things will end up synergizing with Skitarii? I'm hoping for more resilient units, such as the Kastelans.

Strangely enough, I can see Kastelans actually synergizing with Infiltrators in CC. The Infils drop the enemy unit's WS, and soften up the enemy with their guns, making the Kastelans' low attacks value mean less, and make the enemies hit on 4s on the low-WS robots, and the Kastelan phosphor blaster helps the Infiltrator get their charges in even more effectively.

The only problem I can see with this is that you would probably want to ditch the Fists on the Kastelans to get more shots, but that helps the Infiltrators even more to mop up the units that your Phosphor Blasters damaged. In addition, Kastelans are very slow, and it would be difficult for them to keep up with the fast Infltrators. I will definitely have to test this in-game.

I'll trade the fists every time. Kastelans have an MC unit type, yeah? Means they come stock with smash. S6 AP2 is good enough most of the time for me. S10 is for vehicle or anti-MC duty, which are covered by Arc Rifles and Rad Carbines respectively. Not to mention Neutron Lasers and whatever goodies the Servitors end up rolling in with. But the Kastelans concern me. The points cost is oppressively high for the damage output. You're paying a premium for survivability on them, and they don't quite have the damage output to warrant targeting them (imo).

and the Kastelans can always elect to double strength and lower their attacks if they come up against a knight or a landraider. They dont have enough attacks to the point that going down to 1 would hinder them that much.

Losing 1 attack and natural str10 is well worth it if you are getting str6 AP3 3 shots at 36"

It also doesnt matter too much how fast you are if you are spitting out 6 shots str6 at 36" with AP3

Canticles are supposedly the same as doctrina imperatives, but with different effects and they get more powerful with how many units you have on the board.

/end speculation

 Exergy wrote:

 Wingeds wrote:

10 Rangers
10 Rangers
10 vanguard, phosphor pistol, 2 Plasma Culivers
10 Vanguard, arc pistol and 2 arc guns

I agree on keeping the rangers plain. I might want to run 5 man squads instead of 10.
For Vanguard. Why not have 3 of each special. 3 arc guns is much better than 2 arc guns and a arc pistol

 Wingeds wrote:

5 Infiltrators w/ swords and stubcarbine, 4++ on the character

Taser and pistol is better at just about everything

 Wingeds wrote:

Knight w/ battlecannon

Do you prefer the battlecannon to the meltablast?

2 Arc rifles and plasma because that's what you can make from 2 boxes. 3 culivers is extremely expensive, and I feel like the vanguard have enough volume of fire anyways. 3 arc guns is kin of overkill when the vast majority of vehicles have 3 hull points.

Infiltrators with taser... might be better on paper, but I'd much rather cut through most armor in the game reliably then have to deal with rng on armor save rolls. Just my personal preference.

I've only used the knight once, battlecannons always seemed to wreck my day as a SM player, so I wanted to return the favor.

I think the Battle Cannon is the much better option on the knight personally

The only thing it cannot do is penetrate AV14, but that's what the Chainsword is for

Besides, Skitarii are in dire need of more than one high-strength weapon with longer range then 24"

I've got a question about my Skitarii army if anyone here wants to answer it. In my 600pts force I have 5 squads of Vanguard, 3 with just carbines, 1 with Arc weaponry, last with plasma, these are all 5 man squads. My question is, should I replace on of the carbine squads with a 5 man Ranger squad with just rifles? I'm unsure about the idea, but I can see many positives and negatives about it. I think that a small Ranger squad like this would do some damage to Xenos and Guard, but I'm unsure. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 IHateNids wrote:
I think the Battle Cannon is the much better option on the knight personally

The only thing it cannot do is penetrate AV14, but that's what the Chainsword is for

Besides, Skitarii are in dire need of more than one high-strength weapon with longer range then 24"

I would say they are in dire need of something to knock out 2+ saves at range. Plasma is short range and neutron lasers wont get more than 1 terminator unless they are seriously clumped or lucky scatter.

Not sure on the Melta vs Battlecannon, just my thinking.

 Thariinye wrote:
Canticles of the Omnissiah appear to be different than the programming thing; that's the Kastelan Battle Protocols. We still don't know what the Canticles are yet (I think).

Currently I also think that you need to switch out both the fists and the flamer for the shots. It makes them more expensive, but then they actually have significant ranged threat, which as a slow 6" move MC you really need to do anything. Without that, they can effectively be completely ignored unless Canticles can give them a speed boost. With the guns, they have an interesting ranged profile, that's actually kind of good against the DREADED ELDAR GUARDIAN JETBIKE. S6 AP3 that reduces cover if they get a kill is about as good as you can ask for against Eldar Jetbikes (well it's not Ignores Cover, but you can't have everything in life). From a no-extra-models unit that's fully Phosphor, that's 12 shots, half of which are TL. It's still not a lot of firepower out of a Heavy Support Slot, but then again, Skitarii as a whole are really good in firepower but not in survivability, so this actually provides something that can take a hit or two. The other thing that the mass S6 AP3 does is help to counter Flying Hive Tyrants, which Skitarii as a whole don't seem like they have a really good answer to in-faction.

I also agree that S10 is largely unnecessary because of the prevalence of Haywire in Skitarii (that is, if that carries over into Mechanicus or we just see them ally all the time)

They have a great answer for flyrants and such, that being iccarus array onagers. Two of these will almost delete, to completely delete a hive tyrant each turn (depending on jink rolls, which would serve their purpose anyway)

 Exergy wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
I think the Battle Cannon is the much better option on the knight personally

The only thing it cannot do is penetrate AV14, but that's what the Chainsword is for

Besides, Skitarii are in dire need of more than one high-strength weapon with longer range then 24"

I would say they are in dire need of something to knock out 2+ saves at range. Plasma is short range and neutron lasers wont get more than 1 terminator unless they are seriously clumped or lucky scatter.

Not sure on the Melta vs Battlecannon, just my thinking.

Completely agreed, only to my knowledge AP2 doesn't exist at 'long range'. 24" or CC Unwieldy seems to be where the AP2 lives, unless you are planning on turning things like Lascannons against infantry (Or play Eldar...).

Allied BA fast vindicators would be an idea. Move 12", lob a S10AP2 pie 24", all for the cheap price of 130 points

Synergises well with the Flesh Tearers Rent-a-Pod, being the same army book