Not sure why you'd want to, but there's the option
Unfortunately the Caestus Assault Ram's Misericorde rule only allows units in power, artificer, or termi armor to be embarked. Also a ten model limit, counting termis as 1 model.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Aside from list discussions on the whole, what have been people's thoughts on Infiltrators and Rust-Stalkers?
The sheer volume of shots that Infiltrators can pump out with Flechette Blasters is mean. They're S2 AP-, sure, but that many shots is just gross.
I had a unit of 5 bring down a mean Chaos Spawn in a single turn of shooting, which was pretty dang nice for a First Blood.
Ruststalkers only got into combat for me the first time last week. Prior to that, nobody would let them last past my first turn, shooting them with everything they had. But with the Zealot Mask, twin Transonic Blades, and a unit of 5? They tore apart a really mean kitted out Khorne Daemonkin biker lord in the initial assault thanks to him failing a Blind test(he Overwatched when they charged, the Ruststalker Princeps had a Conversion Field and saved it--boom; Blind test for WS1!) and being within 6" of an Infiltrator unit(subtracting 1 from his Initiative to put him on par with the Ruststalkers and their I4).
There were also a lot of 6's in the To Wound pile for AP2
I played against the same opponent as Kan with my Skitarii and Tau.
Ruststalkers destroyed a buffed-up Chaos Terminator squad, taking two casualties.
Infiltrators killed the same BikerLord. The FBs brought him to 1 wound, and the Taser Goads obliterted him in CC. Both units made their points back with ease.
obsidiankatana wrote: Twin transonics make me nervous, what with the lack of assault grenades.
Honestly, they're not really "assault units" in the traditional sense.
With Ruststalkers, you wait until the enemy charges something else--then the Ruststalkers come sprinting out of their hidey hole and tear whatever has attacked your guys(who hopefully were near an Onager Dunecrawler or two equipped with Mindscanner Probes) a new one.
Skitarii are very much an army where you need to envision yourself as a conductor, and your army is your orchestra.
You have to make sure everyone hits the right notes at the right time or it sounds like a dying whale.
obsidiankatana wrote: Twin transonics make me nervous, what with the lack of assault grenades.
Honestly, they're not really "assault units" in the traditional sense.
With Ruststalkers, you wait until the enemy charges something else--then the Ruststalkers come sprinting out of their hidey hole and tear whatever is attacking your guys a new one.
I could see that. I've fielded them as an assault unit, but I've thus far played my Skitarii very aggressively. Shoving Vanguard down one flank with Dragoons and Stalkers down another, the enemy is forced to address one threat or the other. Tactful terrain hugs keep the Stalkers alive. Granted, this is low points levels. Escalation League.
Because I feel like remaining within the cult book for now.
Best unit to man a gun would be the Dominus. And as far as bodyguards go, I'd rather have Breachers or Kastellans than the Priests.
So, let's say I have a bastion. It wouldn't be worth keeping 10 electro priests of either variety in there until the enemy sends a unit close enough? I mean let's face it, they're not the kind of unit where an enemy player would be like "oh he's got 10 electro priests in that bastion I'm not going near there" and then once he is close enough I can emerge and then assault and/or shoot at him. I may or may not still lose at that point, but that's the best I think I'm going to get.
Infiltrators are amazing. The secret sauce is their debuff ability which lowers BS, WS, and I.
Combined with their other abilities ie; they are very durable against small arms firepower, have supreme positioning with infiltrate + scout so they usually corner your opponent in their deployment zone and claim a good cover save, and they deal good shooting and melee damage on top of everything else. IMO infiltrators and vanguard are most of what really makes skitarii work. Infiltrators mess up all your opponent's plans while the vanguard hammer them into submission. Dragoons and Dunecrawlers are also good value units but nothing you couldn't get from allies.
BTW I am thinking more and more that the only way to get any value out of the rangers is to give them arc rifles and use the move through cover and 24"/30" range weapons. The aquebus are just awful and have done nothing but disappoint.
Because I feel like remaining within the cult book for now.
Best unit to man a gun would be the Dominus. And as far as bodyguards go, I'd rather have Breachers or Kastellans than the Priests.
So, let's say I have a bastion. It wouldn't be worth keeping 10 electro priests of either variety in there until the enemy sends a unit close enough? I mean let's face it, they're not the kind of unit where an enemy player would be like "oh he's got 10 electro priests in that bastion I'm not going near there" and then once he is close enough I can emerge and then assault and/or shoot at him. I may or may not still lose at that point, but that's the best I think I'm going to get.
That's not a good solution. So you're putting an already overly expensive, poor unit in a moderately costed immobile building in the hopes that someone will come within threat distance of them? And then hoping that the unit that comes nearby is one that they want to fight, and not a Knight, Wraithknight, Terminators, MC, etc?
Verviedi wrote: They're too squishy to serve as an adequate distraction unit.
Played as part of a Convocation or as the Priest formation attached to a detachment, yeah...they'll work just fine.
The trick is going to be--again--not just using them in the normal "distraction" roles that people are used to. Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus do not have units that can be considered disposable. It just ain't happening.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I applaud your effort Quarter, but I dont think there is any scenario where Electro-Priests are a good choice.
Well, there is one. But it's highly exceptional. If you were to play Zone Mortalis, where giants like wraithknights and riptides couldn't be played, and most ranged attacks only have 12'' or so to fire anyways... They'd undoubtedly do well. But I don't have a Zone Mortalis, and in all liklihood am never going to.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I applaud your effort Quarter, but I dont think there is any scenario where Electro-Priests are a good choice.
That's what people said a month ago about Ruststalkers and Infiltrators.
True, and my words may be proven wrong as people running the War Convocation that has to have the Infiltrators and stalkers saw the use of those units, but I'm not seeing it right now for the electro-priests.
Verviedi wrote: They're too squishy to serve as an adequate distraction unit.
Played as part of a Convocation or as the Priest formation attached to a detachment, yeah...they'll work just fine.
The trick is going to be--again--not just using them in the normal "distraction" roles that people are used to. Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus do not have units that can be considered disposable. It just ain't happening.
Best unit to man a gun would be the Dominus. And as far as bodyguards go, I'd rather have Breachers or Kastellans than the Priests.
You can't attach a Dominus to a Kastelan unit unless it's the Cohort Cybernetica.
ICs can't join MCs.
Or did you mean the other Kataphron variant, the Destroyer?
I did mean the Cohort in that situation. A Cohort behind an Aegis line with one of the Anti-Air guns is freaking hilarious to think about, and would be insanely hard to crack as the solo unit on the table for a reserve-heavy army.
Verviedi wrote: That's still a waste of 180 points. 5 Ruststalkers in a Bastion would be more effective and cheaper than 10 Electro Priests.
How much are Ruststalkers per model?
30.
Maybe Electro Priests are a distraction unit, then?
Electropriests dont do any damage, nor are they hard to kill. The only enemy that would get distracted by them is one who would get distracted by a shiny ball on the floor.
Shiny balls dont costs any points, just bring one and toss it out on turn 2.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I applaud your effort Quarter, but I dont think there is any scenario where Electro-Priests are a good choice.
That's what people said a month ago about Ruststalkers and Infiltrators.
Hmm, I don't know about that. There seemed to be a pretty 50/50 split between pro- and nay- Ruststalkers/Infiltrators. With the priests, it's looking like 90% nay.
I think i'm going to add a Plasma Oblierator to my list for the War Congregation since you can take one fortification.
It gets canticles, provides a good place for Rangers with Trans Arquebuses to fire out and man the gun, loses the get hot rule, and don't forget alot of free upgrades (Void Shield woot).
Now if you wanna be really mean you could take one of those FW fortifications that is a whole tile and give it free upgrades...
WrentheFaceless wrote: I applaud your effort Quarter, but I dont think there is any scenario where Electro-Priests are a good choice.
That's what people said a month ago about Ruststalkers and Infiltrators.
Hmm, I don't know about that. There seemed to be a pretty 50/50 split between pro- and nay- Ruststalkers/Infiltrators. With the priests, it's looking like 90% nay.
people also were all over aquebuses being the second coming when they came out. Now no one would take them unless they are free.
TuddFudders wrote: I think i'm going to add a Plasma Oblierator to my list for the War Congregation since you can take one fortification.
It gets canticles, provides a good place for Rangers with Trans Arquebuses to fire out and man the gun, loses the get hot rule, and don't forget alot of free upgrades (Void Shield woot).
Now if you wanna be really mean you could take one of those FW fortifications that is a whole tile and give it free upgrades...
What is the plasma obliterator, and how many points?
It's a large limited-run fortification that GW released earlier this year. It's 230 points, Medium building (AV 14), S7 AP2 Massive Blast cannon as its only weapon. It can be garrisoned, it has four firing points, one along each side of its foundation, and it also has the Gets Hot! special rule, just because it's a giant plasma cannon I guess. It would truly make a War Congregation tough to beat.
EDIT: I forgot to elaborate something, and I think it'd be best if I just read the description of it word for word:
Plasma Overheat: If this building suffers a glancing hit as a result of the plasma obliterator's Gets Hot special rule then, in addition to any other effects, any unit embarked in the building suffers D3 Wounds. These Wounds are Randomly Allocated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Incidentally, I bought one to see if I could use it to help make my mono-Nurgle list work. Once Ad Mech came out, though... It gave me a second reason to pick them up.
Electropriests can probably be made to work reasonably well in forces that are mostly drawn from C:CM, where you have maxed out Canticles with a reuse from the Detachment, so they can be Shrouded for the first couple of turns while they Run up the board, and then get the Strength boost or extra-hits electrocution powers, but I think to get any value out of them you're going to have to go all-in and take tons, which will cost a fortune in both points and cash.
I bought one box because I really liked the models but there's no way I can afford to buy the 6+ additional boxes needed to run a list like that, so I'll be using them to counts-as one of the new SM Librarius formations.
WrentheFaceless wrote: People also thought rangers were the new hotness and vanguard were trash
Seriously? I have never seen any example of this. Isn't that like saying Fire Warriors are better than Devilgaunts?
When the WD with their stats came out, people were all over the rangers cause of the 30 inch range of their guns, they though Vanguard were trash with an 18 inch low str gun. How wrong they were
WrentheFaceless wrote: People also thought rangers were the new hotness and vanguard were trash
Seriously? I have never seen any example of this. Isn't that like saying Fire Warriors are better than Devilgaunts?
When the WD with their stats came out, people were all over the rangers cause of the 30 inch range of their guns, they though Vanguard were trash with an 18 inch low str gun. How wrong they were
Because people like to talk without mathhammering. If you go back to the early pages of this thread it was pretty well mathhammered and concluded that Vanguard > Rangers, while arquebuses were a "meh" case due to their cost.
Leth wrote: Yea, I need to buy one of those plasma obliterated ta while I am in China, they have one or two on the shelf
In that case, there is one thing you should know. If I were you I would be mindful of the fact that they were put out in a strictly limited run for a reason. The reason is that they were outsourced to a new third party production company (probably somewhere in China) that pretty much failed on quality control. These pieces will have bad mold lines, some melted parts, parts that don't fit, parts that have been filed off, parts that weren't filed off. It was probably, barring a metal model that I tried converting with a dull file one time, the worst experience assembling a miniature I have ever had. Even now that I'm done with the assembly, I still need to greenstuff it because several days worth of careful (and/or intense) filing/scraping was not enough to make this model fit together.
Yah but it can be taken in the CM congregation part of the WD formation, so a building that loses get hots, gets free upgrades, and is affected by canticles is huge.
Stealth + Shroud/Twin linking everyday. There are better buildings to abuse this free upgrade situation tho probably.
Yah but it can be taken in the CM congregation part of the WD formation, so a building that loses get hots, gets free upgrades, and is affected by canticles is huge.
Stealth + Shroud/Twin linking everyday. There are better buildings to abuse this free upgrade situation tho probably.
the building gains none of those advantages. Its not part of the required formation. So you do not get free upgrades, access to canticles for it, OR no gets hot. The only other things that can benefit from those besides whats in the formation are extra cult mechanicus units you purchase, because the formation allows more stuff from them.
Yah but it can be taken in the CM congregation part of the WD formation, so a building that loses get hots, gets free upgrades, and is affected by canticles is huge.
Stealth + Shroud/Twin linking everyday. There are better buildings to abuse this free upgrade situation tho probably.
the building gains none of those advantages. Its not part of the required formation. So you do not get free upgrades, access to canticles for it, OR no gets hot. The only other things that can benefit from those besides whats in the formation are extra cult mechanicus units you purchase, because the formation allows more stuff from them.
iirc, the Battle Congregation from CM allows one fortification, thus making the fortification part of the formation.
Leth wrote: Yea, I need to buy one of those plasma obliterated ta while I am in China, they have one or two on the shelf
In that case, there is one thing you should know. If I were you I would be mindful of the fact that they were put out in a strictly limited run for a reason. The reason is that they were outsourced to a new third party production company (probably somewhere in China) that pretty much failed on quality control. These pieces will have bad mold lines, some melted parts, parts that don't fit, parts that have been filed off, parts that weren't filed off. It was probably, barring a metal model that I tried converting with a dull file one time, the worst experience assembling a miniature I have ever had. Even now that I'm done with the assembly, I still need to greenstuff it because several days worth of careful (and/or intense) filing/scraping was not enough to make this model fit together.
Whoa, that bad? There's one Plasma Obliterator in my FLGS going for like USD$70, I'm still on the fence about picking it up. Maybe I can negotiate down the price if the quality of the parts inside are poor.
Yah but it can be taken in the CM congregation part of the WD formation, so a building that loses get hots, gets free upgrades, and is affected by canticles is huge.
Stealth + Shroud/Twin linking everyday. There are better buildings to abuse this free upgrade situation tho probably.
the building gains none of those advantages. Its not part of the required formation. So you do not get free upgrades, access to canticles for it, OR no gets hot. The only other things that can benefit from those besides whats in the formation are extra cult mechanicus units you purchase, because the formation allows more stuff from them.
iirc, the Battle Congregation from CM allows one fortification, thus making the fortification part of the formation.
This. Battle Congregation is part of the War Convocation. Battle Congregation allows one fortification. War Convocation states that the rules apply to all models in it. Therefore, fortifications as part of the Battle Congregation have the formation special rules. I wonder if Vengeance Weapon Batteries or Firestorm Redoubts would be better, since they're cheaper and you can field multiple (IIRC, it was like 100 points for a bat cannon?) Slap on Void Shields and Magos Machine Spirit for lulz, and tank traps around it to make it more difficult to be capped.
obsidiankatana wrote: Vengeance Batteries seem like a cheap way to boost Canticle numbers, if nothing else. Also durable to retain those numbers.
Would they count as a squad of 1 unit though? Or 2? It does say that each is deployed as a separate fortification. And my bad, Vengeances can only take upgrades from the Obstacles list. :( Now, the Firestorm Redoubt on the other hand... 2 Battle Cannons for ~200 points, with 14 AV and Void Shields, plus the option to take a Gun Emplacement with Icarus Lascannon.
obsidiankatana wrote: Vengeance Batteries seem like a cheap way to boost Canticle numbers, if nothing else. Also durable to retain those numbers.
Would they count as a squad of 1 unit though? Or 2? It does say that each is deployed as a separate fortification. And my bad, Vengeances can only take upgrades from the Obstacles list. :( Now, the Firestorm Redoubt on the other hand... 2 Battle Cannons for ~200 points, with 14 AV and Void Shields, plus the option to take a Gun Emplacement with Icarus Lascannon.
Canticles aren't counted by models but rather units; so I'd say Vengeance Batteries count as 1.
obsidiankatana wrote: Vengeance Batteries seem like a cheap way to boost Canticle numbers, if nothing else. Also durable to retain those numbers.
Would they count as a squad of 1 unit though? Or 2? It does say that each is deployed as a separate fortification. And my bad, Vengeances can only take upgrades from the Obstacles list. :( Now, the Firestorm Redoubt on the other hand... 2 Battle Cannons for ~200 points, with 14 AV and Void Shields, plus the option to take a Gun Emplacement with Icarus Lascannon.
Canticles aren't counted by models but rather units; so I'd say Vengeance Batteries count as 1.
Hmm. Perhaps the fortification formation out of Stronghold assault then? 1 Bunker, 1 Defense Line, 1 Defense Emplacement minimum (iirc) + a number of optional vengeance batteries, firestorms, more defense lines/emplacements, bunkers, etc. Imperial Strongpoint I think it is. Counts as a single fortification slot, so legal for the War Convocation.
obsidiankatana wrote: Vengeance Batteries seem like a cheap way to boost Canticle numbers, if nothing else. Also durable to retain those numbers.
Would they count as a squad of 1 unit though? Or 2? It does say that each is deployed as a separate fortification. And my bad, Vengeances can only take upgrades from the Obstacles list. :( Now, the Firestorm Redoubt on the other hand... 2 Battle Cannons for ~200 points, with 14 AV and Void Shields, plus the option to take a Gun Emplacement with Icarus Lascannon.
Canticles aren't counted by models but rather units; so I'd say Vengeance Batteries count as 1.
Hmm. Perhaps the fortification formation out of Stronghold assault then? 1 Bunker, 1 Defense Line, 1 Defense Emplacement minimum (iirc) + a number of optional vengeance batteries, firestorms, more defense lines/emplacements, bunkers, etc. Imperial Strongpoint I think it is. Counts as a single fortification slot, so legal for the War Convocation.
Jeez man, what points value are you playing at? 2500? (But yes I did see that too and was thinking of all the lulz a castling War Convocation army could have...)
Enigwolf wrote: Jeez man, what points value are you playing at? 2500? (But yes I did see that too and was thinking of all the lulz a castling War Convocation army could have...)
I've been trapped at <1k for the past month. I YEARN FOR LARGE ARMIES!
But thaaat's somewhere in the 2k points range, I believe. Upgrades all being free and such.
WrentheFaceless wrote: People also thought rangers were the new hotness and vanguard were trash
Seriously? I have never seen any example of this. Isn't that like saying Fire Warriors are better than Devilgaunts?
When the WD with their stats came out, people were all over the rangers cause of the 30 inch range of their guns, they though Vanguard were trash with an 18 inch low str gun. How wrong they were
Because people like to talk without mathhammering. If you go back to the early pages of this thread it was pretty well mathhammered and concluded that Vanguard > Rangers, while arquebuses were a "meh" case due to their cost.
This thread started well after the admech news and rumors thread, where most people were trashtalking vanguard.
Well, to be fair, at that point people also didn't know that there was going to be Scout on bloody everything. And Rangers are better than Vanguard if they don't have Scout or allied Drop Pods, imo. The short range guns are only useful if they get in range, so if you don't Pod them in or run up super fast, Rangers are a much better choice thanks to the rifles.
Once the detachment was leaked and people started thinking about allying in, it became clear that Vanguard worked better there.
Yah but it can be taken in the CM congregation part of the WD formation, so a building that loses get hots, gets free upgrades, and is affected by canticles is huge.
Stealth + Shroud/Twin linking everyday. There are better buildings to abuse this free upgrade situation tho probably.
the building gains none of those advantages. Its not part of the required formation. So you do not get free upgrades, access to canticles for it, OR no gets hot. The only other things that can benefit from those besides whats in the formation are extra cult mechanicus units you purchase, because the formation allows more stuff from them.
Wait, so that means the only models that get those benefits are the knight, and the HQ + 2 troops from each side? Nothing else? Are you sure?
Yah but it can be taken in the CM congregation part of the WD formation, so a building that loses get hots, gets free upgrades, and is affected by canticles is huge.
Stealth + Shroud/Twin linking everyday. There are better buildings to abuse this free upgrade situation tho probably.
the building gains none of those advantages. Its not part of the required formation. So you do not get free upgrades, access to canticles for it, OR no gets hot. The only other things that can benefit from those besides whats in the formation are extra cult mechanicus units you purchase, because the formation allows more stuff from them.
Wait, so that means the only models that get those benefits are the knight, and the HQ + 2 troops from each side? Nothing else? Are you sure?
Fortifications get the benefits as the ruling as per the formation states applies to all units in the formation. Since Fortifications can be taken as part of it, it applies too.
So I'm gonna assume folks have seen the new SM web exclusive formation. what are the thoughts for countering this with purely Admech? Icarus array interception? Knots if the super durable Kastelan? Vanguard, ranger, kataphron MSU?
*GASP* Could it be. . . .electro priests?
I'm personally leaning toward icarus array with a Kastelan "bodyguard". Of course I'm no mathhammer wiz so I have no idea how it would actually fair or where the sweet spot for the Kastelan to Onager ratio would be.
Ir0njack wrote: So I'm gonna assume folks have seen the new SM web exclusive formation. what are the thoughts for countering this with purely Admech? Icarus array interception? Knots if the super durable Kastelan? Vanguard, ranger, kataphron MSU? *GASP*..... E-electro priests?
I'm personally leaning toward icarus array with a Kastelan "bodyguard". Of course I'm no mathhammer wiz so I have no idea how it would actually fair or where the sweet spot for the Kastelan to Onager ratio would be.
I am assuming you are talking about war convocation as you mention both Kastelan and Onager in the same army.
If you go first you can pop the shrouded + stealth canticle the turn before the formation comes in and get 2+ cover saves army wide. You will need to either bubble wrap your important units with the units that matter less (ie destroyers are important and rangers/breachers can be sacrificed). It will be very very hard for a Skyhammer Annihiltion Force to meaningfully damage you with 2+ cover saves (grav devs will average ~2 wounds for 4 grav devs). As long as you kill any locator beacons the assault marines will struggle to make charges and even if they do they will be largely ineffective even in CC as you will get your FnP, saves, and they will have to handle both wounds. GtG if you are not going to get a 2+ cover save as you can always use the fearless canticle to get back up next turn. Otherwise you can use one of the three CC canticles + counter charge with the dragoons/imperial knights to win any combats you are in or reroll to hit to eliminate all the grav devs.
If you go second you should seriously have brought a ADL in an Ad Mech army without allies as you can GtG for a 2+ cover behind it and then use the fearless canticle to get back up the next turn.
If the opponent decides to bring the formation in turn 2 then kill any locator beacons and play with the same overall plan as if you are going first, ie shrouded + stealth FTW.
Kastelans are probably the only unit that is actively bad against the grav dev portion of this formation but they make a good counter charge unit. Most of the ad mech units are not really scared of assault marines in close combat and grav guns are actually not very efficient against most ad mech units as Sv4+, FnP, multiple wounds tends to be the average stats in ad mech infantry. The shrouding + stealth canticle is also huge against an army that absolutely needs to deal a knock out strike in a single turn or it gets shredded. Even the ad mech vehicles are in a bad place for grav devs as they are either too cheap and come with built in cover (dragoons), have interceptor (onager), or cannot be immobilized and 4+ invulnerable (knight).
Ir0njack wrote: So I'm gonna assume folks have seen the new SM web exclusive formation. what are the thoughts for countering this with purely Admech? Icarus array interception? Knots if the super durable Kastelan? Vanguard, ranger, kataphron MSU?
*GASP* Could it be. . . .electro priests?
I'm personally leaning toward icarus array with a Kastelan "bodyguard". Of course I'm no mathhammer wiz so I have no idea how it would actually fair or where the sweet spot for the Kastelan to Onager ratio would be.
Well gak. Somehow, servitors can actually manage to go to ground...
...But that formation is only as good as it's arrival. If we can negate that, then we can win. In any case, Imperial armies should never be fighting each other, but if you do find yourself in the unfavorable position, here's what you need to do:
Start the game with 1 unit of at least 4 Castellan Robots, possibly as a Cohort Cybernetica formation, while leaving the rest of the army in reserve. Once the game begins, you must put the Castellan Robots on their Aegis Protocol and equip either the Datasmith or the possible Tech Priest Dominus with either the Anzion's Pseudogenetor Aracana or the Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land Arcana.
This will deflect the devastator's fire back onto them, protect the robots from most of the incoming damage, and then either Shred the marines in the assault or, alternatively, survive longer post-combat to prevent the remaining devastators, provided you've bested the assault marines, from finishing the job. You may wish to take the latter considering there will be drop pods nearby and possible who knows what else. Combat may just be safer until your reinforcements arrive.
You could also just bring a foritifcation and hide in it.
I'm pretty sure the web bundle only allows for 2 drop pods to be fielded in that manner, not your entire army, no? There's simply not enough of an army arriving to be scary. That said, Firestorm fortification, Coteaz ally, and two battle cannons. "I've been expecting you" with 2 bat cannons is amusing as all heck.
I was also in a tournament, yesterday, 22 people, also went 2-1.
I was using a normal skitarii detachment with the admech cohort cybernetica. Things I learned:
-BE SUPER AGGRESSIVE WITH THE COHORT. This unit is nigh unstoppable; I only lost 1 robot the whole day, no other models, and only because I rolled a 1 when trying to give the injured robot a wound back... Otherwise, their output of fire is seriously damaging, and they are also very deadly in close combat. Stick them at the frontline in a very "come at me bro" style and just blast away. After I learned the ins and outs, I was actually rarely using the extra shots command, until my opponent realized their sustainability and ignored them. It is important to not forget that they are still at base, 4 monstrous creatures, 2 powerfist datasmiths and a power axe dominus, which means getting them into close combat is not a bad thing at all. As well, even though the iwnd relic is a given on this unit, the cognis relic as well made it very deadly against flyers and fmcs so keep that in mind. Grade A+
-Though skitarii infantry may look decent on paper, and vanguard are a decent unit, especially when put in pods, they are VERY fragile and their range really hurts them. Now having played in a tourny with the army, it makes me very sad neither skitarii nor cult mech has a transport or deep strike option for these units. They overall did okay, but everygame they were wiped out. I was using 2 5 man haywire squads and 1 full 10 man stock squad, decent output, but hard to keep around or get in range. Grade b+
-Rustalkers and infiltrators...Ill start off by saying models wise these are my favorite in the army, I will never be playing without them. That being said, the obvious is just too true. toughness 3 on these guys is a travesty, plain and simple. SO often their multiple wounds and FnP counted for nothing, as there is just sooooo much 6+ firepower in the game atm. THAT being said, these guys are some of the most destructive force I have ever witnessed. Even one, of either of these units cannot be allowed to exist. Rustalkers are a terror for both infantry and vehicles (didnt get to fight any MCs), they just mow through any target they get their hands on. Infiltrators' passive ability is game changing against so many armies, and the S6 goad hits gets out of hand so quickly it is silly. I am now completely rethinking the validity of the killclade formation. Grade A
-Dragoons...are...awesome! didn't get to use them much vs infantry but man are the nasty vehicle hunters. All the dunstriders' speed (including the above 2) is incredible and man all those S8 hits just murders vehicles. So fun, and not as fragile as I thought. Grade A+
-Onagers hit hard, but are a gamble. I have tried the icarrus array version in practice, and though great against flyers and skimmers, against any army that either has no abundance of said units, or they simply aren't on the field, makes the iccarus crawlers a fairly large point sink that just stands around and snap fires at some things. Thus, I decided to try the neutron laser variant. I love the look of this gun, and coming stock with the stubber is nice. The laser itself is very nasty, and crazy accurate with orders given...but suffers from the problem all single small blasts have. It is just one small blast. It can be really nasty if it gets through, but against single targets it can be shrugged off by one roll, which is very sad. Unsure if I will field these guys in the future. Great when they work, big terrain pieces when they don't. Grade B
So what are peoples oppinion about the Kastelan formation and the formation with the Kataphrons? I really want to run them next to my Skitarii. But not sure if they are any good with all the footslogging.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: So what are peoples oppinion about the Kastelan formation and the formation with the Kataphrons? I really want to run them next to my Skitarii. But not sure if they are any good with all the footslogging.
Kastelan formation is really nice. It's the only way to have a Dominus in a unit of Kastelans, which means access to the IWND Relic. Since the whole formation is deployed as a single unit, but counts as 3 for the purposes of Canticles it gives a nice little boost that way. Add in the Cognis relic armor and you have Kastelans that Overwatch/Snap Shoot on 5's or 6's with IWND and instantly activate their Protocols.
You'll have to be more specific in regards to the "formation with the Kataphrons" as there are two different ones. Elimination Maniple is 1-3 Kastelan Maniples and 2-3 units of Kataphron Destroyers while the Requisitioner Force is a Dominus and 2 units of Kataphron Breachers.
Went second on the 1st and 3rd game, went 1st on second game. Clever use of scout moves into cover and behind LOS buildings kept my guys alive for the most part until I could activate Shroudpsalm kept most alive my first turn. 3rd game was against a guy with a cult/blood angels army who had a Cohort and 2 pods full of grav destroyers, cover saved my butt on that one but that was the one i lost the most models. Rust STalkers and infiltrators were mvps, Rust stalkers wrecked 2 necron vehicles in assault game one due to haywire grenades and dragoons did their part as well. They're a flexible army, they can gunline or advance.
Vanguard and rust stalkers scouted every turn into cover mid field and infiltrators infiltrated nearby to take advantage of their debuff. Infantry on their own are very squishy
Cognis relic on the kastellans was a good choice, gave me some more pseudo anti air and my crawler intercepted a nightscythe turn 2 and wreck it with an immobilize.
Game 1: Mix crons, blob of warriors with a destroyer lord and that light staff thing, one ghost ark, one unit of 5 wraiths, 1 unit of death marks, one triarch stalker, C'tan nightbringer and 2 other destroyer lords that deep struck
Game 2: More crons, 18 wraiths, 3 sythes with max warriors cryteks
Game 3: Cohort and min size war congregation and blood angels.
Cohort is crazy tough, took 5 rounds to kill off 2 kastellans and 2 data smiths, he had 2 kastellans and his priest left at the end
You'll have to be more specific in regards to the "formation with the Kataphrons" as there are two different ones. Elimination Maniple is 1-3 Kastelan Maniples and 2-3 units of Kataphron Destroyers while the Requisitioner Force is a Dominus and 2 units of Kataphron Breachers.
Both sound interesting to me. I got the Kastalans and was thinking about the one with the Dominus and 1/3 Kataphron Destroyer squads. If I take it I'll have enough for the Elimination Maniple to.
You'll have to be more specific in regards to the "formation with the Kataphrons" as there are two different ones. Elimination Maniple is 1-3 Kastelan Maniples and 2-3 units of Kataphron Destroyers while the Requisitioner Force is a Dominus and 2 units of Kataphron Breachers.
Both sound interesting to me. I got the Kastalans and was thinking about the one with the Dominus and 1/3 Kataphron Destroyer squads. If I take it I'll have enough for the Elimination Maniple to.
2 Kataphron Breacher Squads, not Destroyers.
You don't get to do "or" with any of the formations in Cult Mechanicus sadly.
A Holy Requisitioner formation with an Elimination Maniple would be kinda interesting.
What's everyone's thoughts on allying in the new Skyhammer formation for Space Marines to give even more alpha-strike goodness to a Cult Mechanicus list? Combined with Skitarii drop pods, you could get a very effective first-turn alpha-strike podding list that will shoot a crap-ton of stuff off the table, and then lock in close combat anything that might be left standing which poses a threat (blobs, particularly).
I'm looking at Skitarii, Skyhammer Formation, another SM formation/detachment to give me librarians, and then the Culexus assassin to counter any psychic deathstars.
Enigwolf wrote: What's everyone's thoughts on allying in the new Skyhammer formation for Space Marines to give even more alpha-strike goodness to a Cult Mechanicus list? Combined with Skitarii drop pods, you could get a very effective first-turn alpha-strike podding list that will shoot a crap-ton of stuff off the table, and then lock in close combat anything that might be left standing which poses a threat (blobs, particularly).
I'm looking at Skitarii, Skyhammer Formation, another SM formation/detachment to give me librarians, and then the Culexus assassin to counter any psychic deathstars.
Honest opinion? Your opponent wouldnt have any fun, and you would look like a colossal douche.
Enigwolf wrote: What's everyone's thoughts on allying in the new Skyhammer formation for Space Marines to give even more alpha-strike goodness to a Cult Mechanicus list? Combined with Skitarii drop pods, you could get a very effective first-turn alpha-strike podding list that will shoot a crap-ton of stuff off the table, and then lock in close combat anything that might be left standing which poses a threat (blobs, particularly).
I'm looking at Skitarii, Skyhammer Formation, another SM formation/detachment to give me librarians, and then the Culexus assassin to counter any psychic deathstars.
Honest opinion? Your opponent wouldnt have any fun, and you would look like a colossal douche.
Quarterdime wrote:Yeah, play to have fun, not to win. At least that's what I do.
Of course, I completely agree. I refuse to play like a WAAC player, this is simply list-building for the sake of theory-crafting.
Enigwolf wrote: What's everyone's thoughts on allying in the new Skyhammer formation for Space Marines to give even more alpha-strike goodness to a Cult Mechanicus list? Combined with Skitarii drop pods, you could get a very effective first-turn alpha-strike podding list that will shoot a crap-ton of stuff off the table, and then lock in close combat anything that might be left standing which poses a threat (blobs, particularly).
I'm looking at Skitarii, Skyhammer Formation, another SM formation/detachment to give me librarians, and then the Culexus assassin to counter any psychic deathstars.
Honest opinion? Your opponent wouldnt have any fun, and you would look like a colossal douche.
This is a tactics thread. You're here to construct the optimal army.
If you want to self-nerf and run a casual list, go ahead, but please understand that some people enjoy playing hardcore 40k with optimised lists, and there are a lot of these players around. Go to any GT,
you'll find out how far playing casual will get you.
The main problem with this list is that Gamersaurus tournaments are usually two source only.
Fielded a Cohort Cybernetica this past weekend in an 1100pt list. Support it with a triple arc Vanguard squad and a triple Caliver squad. No upgrades short of phosphors on the Kastellans. Faced off against an Ulthwe Eldar list (Guardian Warhost along with some falcons and a Nightspinner). Having been thrashed by it before playing pure Skitarii (the volume of S6 APBelow4 invalidating any saves I thought of taking) it was a welcome change to be able to routinely weather the storm of fire. Both Vanguard squads died, but dear lord the Cohort just wouldn't die. Lost a Datasmith and one bot, by the end of the game I was chasing a group of guardians and two falcons around in a circle shrugging off pulse lasers and starcannons, won 8-5 in Maelstrom.
Enigwolf wrote: What's everyone's thoughts on allying in the new Skyhammer formation for Space Marines to give even more alpha-strike goodness to a Cult Mechanicus list? Combined with Skitarii drop pods, you could get a very effective first-turn alpha-strike podding list that will shoot a crap-ton of stuff off the table, and then lock in close combat anything that might be left standing which poses a threat (blobs, particularly).
I'm looking at Skitarii, Skyhammer Formation, another SM formation/detachment to give me librarians, and then the Culexus assassin to counter any psychic deathstars.
Honest opinion? Your opponent wouldnt have any fun, and you would look like a colossal douche.
That's not even a really bad list. Because there is a difference between building a strong but workable list, and building a horsecrap list that requires horsecrap to counter. Skyhammer is strong, and makes Assault Marines a bit less useless, but the above list is not so strong that it can't be beaten.
Wilson wrote: I dont understand people who dont play a game to win... You can have fun and win at the same time...
You do not buy a video game and voluntarily kill yourself everytime... ( unless youre playing GTA or ragdoll lol)
The disconnect is whether you consider listbuilding part of the game or not. Plenty of people will play to crush their enemies and hear the lamentations of their women etc once models are on the table, but are quite happy to use fluffy or quirky or for-the-sake-of-using-the-models lists to do so. That's why it would be nice to come into tactics threads every one in a while and have people actually discuss tactics beyond "don't take that, here use this boring alpha-strike netlist instead" and then get all pissy when it's pointed out that's not necessarily an answer to the question asked.
Wilson wrote: I dont understand people who dont play a game to win... You can have fun and win at the same time...
You do not buy a video game and voluntarily kill yourself everytime... ( unless youre playing GTA or ragdoll lol)
The disconnect is whether you consider listbuilding part of the game or not. Plenty of people will play to crush their enemies and hear the lamentations of their women etc once models are on the table, but are quite happy to use fluffy or quirky or for-the-sake-of-using-the-models lists to do so. That's why it would be nice to come into tactics threads every one in a while and have people actually discuss tactics beyond "don't take that, here use this boring alpha-strike netlist instead" and then get all pissy when it's pointed out that's not necessarily an answer to the question asked.
Well, it is part of the game. Drop Pod Vanguard is probably straight up the strongest way to play Skitarii other than maybe the War Convocation. If you want a list to be considered, you have to argue as to why it's better than dropping units with 3 Plasma or 3 Haywire guns out of Pods, or say straight out that you're trying to build one without them and you realize that it's weaker.
As the person who originally suggested the Droppod Skitarii + Skyhammer force, let me just suggest we shift the topic away from whether WAAC gaming is fun or not, to the actual tactics themselves?
Wilson wrote: I dont understand people who dont play a game to win... You can have fun and win at the same time...
You do not buy a video game and voluntarily kill yourself everytime... ( unless youre playing GTA or ragdoll lol)
The disconnect is whether you consider listbuilding part of the game or not. Plenty of people will play to crush their enemies and hear the lamentations of their women etc once models are on the table, but are quite happy to use fluffy or quirky or for-the-sake-of-using-the-models lists to do so. That's why it would be nice to come into tactics threads every one in a while and have people actually discuss tactics beyond "don't take that, here use this boring alpha-strike netlist instead" and then get all pissy when it's pointed out that's not necessarily an answer to the question asked.
Well, it is part of the game. Drop Pod Vanguard is probably straight up the strongest way to play Skitarii other than maybe the War Convocation. If you want a list to be considered, you have to argue as to why it's better than dropping units with 3 Plasma or 3 Haywire guns out of Pods, or say straight out that you're trying to build one without them and you realize that it's weaker.
It's part of the game in your view. For myself, the game is the actual, you know, game; making a list is choosing how I'll be playing, not actually playing. And the point is exactly that folk shouldn't have to spend half their time in these threads debating the "why bother, just play Draigostar dewd" crowd when they ask for advice on how to use a unit or a list - is it too much to ask that folk get the benefit of the doubt that they're not utter morons who're capable of asking for list building advice if that's what they actually want?
Aspects of list building dictate gameplay. If I'm asked about my opinions regarding a unit, I compare it to other options within the book that fill the same slot and/or complementary units within the codex. I'm aware whoever I'm talking to may have done the same, but a different perspective may bring other things to light. How to use a unit by itself is one thing. How to use it in tandem with an army is quite another.
Wilson wrote: I dont understand people who dont play a game to win... You can have fun and win at the same time...
You do not buy a video game and voluntarily kill yourself everytime... ( unless youre playing GTA or ragdoll lol)
The disconnect is whether you consider listbuilding part of the game or not. Plenty of people will play to crush their enemies and hear the lamentations of their women etc once models are on the table, but are quite happy to use fluffy or quirky or for-the-sake-of-using-the-models lists to do so. That's why it would be nice to come into tactics threads every one in a while and have people actually discuss tactics beyond "don't take that, here use this boring alpha-strike netlist instead" and then get all pissy when it's pointed out that's not necessarily an answer to the question asked.
Well, it is part of the game. Drop Pod Vanguard is probably straight up the strongest way to play Skitarii other than maybe the War Convocation. If you want a list to be considered, you have to argue as to why it's better than dropping units with 3 Plasma or 3 Haywire guns out of Pods, or say straight out that you're trying to build one without them and you realize that it's weaker.
It's part of the game in your view. For myself, the game is the actual, you know, game; making a list is choosing how I'll be playing, not actually playing. And the point is exactly that folk shouldn't have to spend half their time in these threads debating the "why bother, just play Draigostar dewd" crowd when they ask for advice on how to use a unit or a list - is it too much to ask that folk get the benefit of the doubt that they're not utter morons who're capable of asking for list building advice if that's what they actually want?
No one is saying "just play Draigostar". If you want feedback on a list, it has to be considered in the context of how it would fare against powerful lists that are out there currently. If people think it won't match up, then they'll suggest a list that does. If you're just playing against your friends and want to bring whatever and don't care how it does... then why are you asking for feedback?
And yes, list building is a huge part of the game. Knowing the meta, knowing what you need to counter, knowing what people lack to counter things you have, and being able to put it together in a list that's cohesive enough to win missions that are either kill points or objective based is a huge part of the game. If you don't do that, then you won't have a shot at winning against people who do. It's just as important if not more important than any amount of dice you roll or how you deploy.
Ok, so we did a test game where I was playing with 3 formations only, cohort, ironstrider, and killclade at 1850. I managed to get my ironstrider guys in on the first turn, got the side I wanted, moved the killclade and cohort straight at them.
Few notes:
-The turn 2 assault range of the killclade is just bonkers. I was able to assault his entire army on the field second turn. I averaged 26"-30" total movement on the second turn(move, run and charge) for all 4 squads, after moving and infiltrating on the first turn. That's 35"-39" total move in 2 turns! Plus with 6 dragoons in his deployment zone, he really had a hard time deciding where to put his damage.
-The dragoon formation is actually not bad...if you get your reserve roll. putting 2 units of dragoons in your opponents backfield right off the bat really changes the pace of the game, even if they are just bullet sponges, a unit of 3 is only 135 points, a fair sacrifice to keep all of your killclade untouched.
-cohort did what it always does, takes no damage and puts out fantastic damage.
Gonna try this out next, it just sounds so silly.
Cohort Cybernetica:
Dominus, Autocadeus of Arkhan Land, Eradication Beam, infoslave skull, conversion field 165
x5 kastelan robots, x5 twin linked heavy phosphur, x5 phosphur, x3 datasmith, (1 datasmith w/ raiment of the technomartyr, conversion field) 860
x5 kastelan robots, x5 twin linked heavy phosphur, x5 phosphur, x3 datasmith 825
Wilson wrote: I dont understand people who dont play a game to win... You can have fun and win at the same time...
You do not buy a video game and voluntarily kill yourself everytime... ( unless youre playing GTA or ragdoll lol)
I don't understand people who think that the only alternative to WAAC is not caring about winning at all. That there can be no middle ground. You understand that if I decide to buy some Nurglings or Electro Priests I'm going to do my damndest to try and make them work?
Wilson wrote: I dont understand people who dont play a game to win... You can have fun and win at the same time...
You do not buy a video game and voluntarily kill yourself everytime... ( unless youre playing GTA or ragdoll lol)
I don't understand people who think that the only alternative to WAAC is not caring about winning at all. That there can be no middle ground. You understand that if I decide to buy some Nurglings or Electro Priests I'm going to do my damndest to try and make them work?
You can buy them, and you certainly have the right to try and make them work... But you should know that in doing so you're intentially gimping yourself and shouldn't call people with optimized lists WAAC.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: So what are peoples oppinion about the Kastelan formation and the formation with the Kataphrons? I really want to run them next to my Skitarii. But not sure if they are any good with all the footslogging.
Kastelan formation is really nice. It's the only way to have a Dominus in a unit of Kastelans, which means access to the IWND Relic. Since the whole formation is deployed as a single unit, but counts as 3 for the purposes of Canticles it gives a nice little boost that way. Add in the Cognis relic armor and you have Kastelans that Overwatch/Snap Shoot on 5's or 6's with IWND and instantly activate their Protocols.
why can't I add a dominos to a robot unit? Is there something about adding a character to monstrous creatures that I don't remember in the rules?
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: So what are peoples oppinion about the Kastelan formation and the formation with the Kataphrons? I really want to run them next to my Skitarii. But not sure if they are any good with all the footslogging.
Kastelan formation is really nice. It's the only way to have a Dominus in a unit of Kastelans, which means access to the IWND Relic. Since the whole formation is deployed as a single unit, but counts as 3 for the purposes of Canticles it gives a nice little boost that way. Add in the Cognis relic armor and you have Kastelans that Overwatch/Snap Shoot on 5's or 6's with IWND and instantly activate their Protocols.
why can't I add a dominos to a robot unit? Is there something about adding a character to monstrous creatures that I don't remember in the rules?
Page 166.
Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join units that contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures. They can join other Independent Characters, though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!
Ha ha I just read that, I should probably check my rulebook, before I post silly questions. Sorry , man I wished I got to play more instead of just post about the game on a forum.
buckero0 wrote: Ha ha I just read that, I should probably check my rulebook, before I post silly questions. Sorry , man I wished I got to play more instead of just post about the game on a forum.
No question is silly when you learn something from it.
buckero0 wrote: Ha ha I just read that, I should probably check my rulebook, before I post silly questions. Sorry , man I wished I got to play more instead of just post about the game on a forum.
No question is silly when you learn something from it.
Troof ^
Anyone had a chance to try the ironstrider formation yet? Im wary about it. Good luck in one game does not mean a good idea. I am also especially wary of having assault units stuck off the board, since they will have to wait a turn before they can assault when they actually do come in. You know, unless you are space marines where you can just choose to come in and assault on the first turn...
buckero0 wrote: Ha ha I just read that, I should probably check my rulebook, before I post silly questions. Sorry , man I wished I got to play more instead of just post about the game on a forum.
No question is silly when you learn something from it.
Troof ^
Anyone had a chance to try the ironstrider formation yet? Im wary about it. Good luck in one game does not mean a good idea. I am also especially wary of having assault units stuck off the board, since they will have to wait a turn before they can assault when they actually do come in. You know, unless you are space marines where you can just choose to come in and assault on the first turn...
Eeth, unless you're going against an alpha-strike army that can wipe your (relatively fragile) walkers off the board - not worth it. Ironstriders can get a charge in pretty easily on T1, if not T2. With the formation, you're still till at least T2 for them to come in, unless you start investing in reserves-manipulation. You also pointed out the obvious point that they can't assault after arriving, meaning at least a T3 charge, unless you're stuck with Jezzails, in which case you're gaining no benefit from them being in reserves, since they can very easily stay out of range of stuff that would kill them.
buckero0 wrote: Ha ha I just read that, I should probably check my rulebook, before I post silly questions. Sorry , man I wished I got to play more instead of just post about the game on a forum.
No question is silly when you learn something from it.
Troof ^
Anyone had a chance to try the ironstrider formation yet? Im wary about it. Good luck in one game does not mean a good idea. I am also especially wary of having assault units stuck off the board, since they will have to wait a turn before they can assault when they actually do come in. You know, unless you are space marines where you can just choose to come in and assault on the first turn...
Eeth, unless you're going against an alpha-strike army that can wipe your (relatively fragile) walkers off the board - not worth it. Ironstriders can get a charge in pretty easily on T1, if not T2. With the formation, you're still till at least T2 for them to come in, unless you start investing in reserves-manipulation. You also pointed out the obvious point that they can't assault after arriving, meaning at least a T3 charge, unless you're stuck with Jezzails, in which case you're gaining no benefit from them being in reserves, since they can very easily stay out of range of stuff that would kill them.
Well turn 2 charge at the earliest, as they can enter on turn 1. Thing is, I wish they had a rule like skyhammer where you could just choose first or second turn. Don't need any of the assault after coming in nonsense, but a guarantee to come in first or second turn by choice would be nice. I ran it once, and the only reason I saw it as valid was if you do get the roll on turn 1. 3 dragoons is only 135 points and so throwing them directly into your opponent's backfield is a very useful distraction to the rest of your fragile units. Like I feel it worked well with the killclade, as having 6 goons in the player's backfield made him totally ignore the bigger threat of the killclade, allowing me a boardwide turn 2 charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, thinking of running this for next time, just to see just how bonkers it can be, thoughts?
Cohort Cybernetica
Dominus, Autocadeus of Arkhan Land, Eradication Beam, infoslave skull, conversion field 165
x5 kastelan robots, x5 twin linked heavy phosphur, x5 phosphur, x3 datasmith, (1 datasmith w/ raiment of the technomartyr, conversion field) 860
x5 kastelan robots, x5 twin linked heavy phosphur, x5 phosphur, x3 datasmith 825
Did any more come of the discussion about the Plasma Obliterator? Normally I wouldn't have bought one, but I snagged an auction for one nicely assembled and green-stuff'd, meaning the biggest reason to avoid the kit was taken out of the equation (plus it cost normal MSRP).
I'm wondering if it might fit a role as anti-horde, but Vanguard generic guns and other volume of fire seems to do this just fine in my games to date.
Other than "cool" and synergistic (thanks to removing Gets Hot) is there any reason to seriously consider running this bad-boy at 1850pts?
Wilson wrote: I dont understand people who dont play a game to win... You can have fun and win at the same time...
You do not buy a video game and voluntarily kill yourself everytime... ( unless youre playing GTA or ragdoll lol)
I don't understand people who think that the only alternative to WAAC is not caring about winning at all. That there can be no middle ground. You understand that if I decide to buy some Nurglings or Electro Priests I'm going to do my damndest to try and make them work?
You can buy them, and you certainly have the right to try and make them work... But you should know that in doing so you're intentially gimping yourself and shouldn't call people with optimized lists WAAC.
You're absolutely right. 3 Heldrake CSM is just an optimized list, if he's taking a unit of Thousand Sons instead of that Heldrake then he's just making a mistake instead of playing right. WAAC doesn't exist.
Wilson wrote: I dont understand people who dont play a game to win... You can have fun and win at the same time...
You do not buy a video game and voluntarily kill yourself everytime... ( unless youre playing GTA or ragdoll lol)
I don't understand people who think that the only alternative to WAAC is not caring about winning at all. That there can be no middle ground. You understand that if I decide to buy some Nurglings or Electro Priests I'm going to do my damndest to try and make them work?
You can buy them, and you certainly have the right to try and make them work... But you should know that in doing so you're intentially gimping yourself and shouldn't call people with optimized lists WAAC.
You're absolutely right. 3 Heldrake CSM is just an optimized list, if he's taking a unit of Thousand Sons instead of that Heldrake then he's just making a mistake instead of playing right. WAAC doesn't exist.
Oh WAAC most certainly exists, people army-jump all the time to the perceived 'stronger' armies to get that edge.
That's competitive, not win WAAC. WIn at all costs is someone who is willing to lie cheat, hide rules, etc to win. Just because someone is competitive and trying to keep their edge.
All games do this. I play league of legends and patch to patch what champions are best changes creating a series of changes in other champions. No one bats an eye if you shift to something else to stay competitive at the top levels. Most people don't bother and just go with what they know.
It's not the same and it's kinda annoying that WAAC is being used so easily.
Leth wrote: That's competitive, not win WAAC. WIn at all costs is someone who is willing to lie cheat, hide rules, etc to win. Just because someone is competitive and trying to keep their edge.
All games do this. I play league of legends and patch to patch what champions are best changes creating a series of changes in other champions. No one bats an eye if you shift to something else to stay competitive at the top levels. Most people don't bother and just go with what they know.
It's not the same and it's kinda annoying that WAAC is being used so easily.
Oh. My mistake. So let's try to not be so competitive about list building that we fail to even give electro priests a shake of the stick. I spent some time reviewing my Cult Mech codex and searching for hints as to what the logic behind the units must be and here's what I've come up with:
The Corpuscarii are clearly designed to be assault troops as well considering they still get exploding 6's in close combat and their weapon type is Assault, their range is short, and they still have the same hammer of wrath ability as the Fulgurite electro priest has. That combined with the Electro Priest Canticle confirms to me that both of them are assault troops, the Corpuscarii designed to soften up the enemy prior to charging as opposed to the Fulgurite which is just going to do the whole job in melee. The biggest difference between the two is that the Fulgurite have Concussive and Instant Death on a 6, which makes them monstrous creature killers, while the Corpuscarii seem to be more focused for dealing with lighter targets like infantry.
So the Corpuscarii have BS 4 with 2 shots, twin-linked. So let's say you have 10 of them. That means 20 dice are rolled, statistically at BS 4 you're going to get 7-8 misses that you then get to re-roll, lowering the total amount of misses to around 3. Out of 20. So with the 16-17 or so dice, about 3 of which are going to be a six, creating 6 extra hits aside from themselves. So now, with 10 models, you have created 23 Strength 4 hits to be resolved, and THEN you're going to charge in with Hammer of Wrath, with more exploding 6's on Strength 4, this would devastate light infantry such as orks, Tyranids, Guard, etc. It's designed to stand up to overwhelming numbers, not marines. Just like the Fulgurites should be sent against monsters, preferably after finishing off another unit that was weakened by shooting. These guys are both specialists, and their formation together is misleading and thrown in out of obligation by the looks of it.
Leth wrote: That's competitive, not win WAAC. WIn at all costs is someone who is willing to lie cheat, hide rules, etc to win. Just because someone is competitive and trying to keep their edge.
All games do this. I play league of legends and patch to patch what champions are best changes creating a series of changes in other champions. No one bats an eye if you shift to something else to stay competitive at the top levels. Most people don't bother and just go with what they know.
It's not the same and it's kinda annoying that WAAC is being used so easily.
Oh. My mistake. So let's try to not be so competitive about list building that we fail to even give electro priests a shake of the stick. I spent some time reviewing my Cult Mech codex and searching for hints as to what the logic behind the units must be and here's what I've come up withf it.
I was not responding to you, I never said that you should not take whatever units you like. I was responding to the lumping of competitive players in with WAAC as if they are one and the same
Enigwolf wrote: So... A page and a half after this thread devolved into a discussion about WAAC gaming after I suggestion Skitarii Droppod + Skyhammer...
Enigwolf wrote: So... A page and a half after this thread devolved into a discussion about WAAC gaming after I suggestion Skitarii Droppod + Skyhammer...
Can we discuss tactics?
Did you not read my last post?
My apologies. I missed it skimming past the round-and-round debate posts.
Quarterdime wrote:
The Corpuscarii are clearly designed to be assault troops as well considering they still get exploding 6's in close combat and their weapon type is Assault, their range is short, and they still have the same hammer of wrath ability as the Fulgurite electro priest has. That combined with the Electro Priest Canticle confirms to me that both of them are assault troops, the Corpuscarii designed to soften up the enemy prior to charging as opposed to the Fulgurite which is just going to do the whole job in melee. The biggest difference between the two is that the Fulgurite have Concussive and Instant Death on a 6, which makes them monstrous creature killers, while the Corpuscarii seem to be more focused for dealing with lighter targets like infantry.
So the Corpuscarii have BS 4 with 2 shots, twin-linked. So let's say you have 10 of them. That means 20 dice are rolled, statistically at BS 4 you're going to get 7-8 misses that you then get to re-roll, lowering the total amount of misses to around 3. Out of 20. So with the 16-17 or so dice, about 3 of which are going to be a six, creating 6 extra hits aside from themselves. So now, with 10 models, you have created 23 Strength 4 hits to be resolved, and THEN you're going to charge in with Hammer of Wrath, with more exploding 6's on Strength 4, this would devastate light infantry such as orks, Tyranids, Guard, etc. It's designed to stand up to overwhelming numbers, not marines. Just like the Fulgurites should be sent against monsters, preferably after finishing off another unit that was weakened by shooting. These guys are both specialists, and their formation together is misleading and thrown in out of obligation by the looks of it.
Hm. If the Corpuscarii do make it into close combat, they do fill one whole that the CM codex has: hoard armies. Most of their weapons are very dakka with AP3 or AP2 on average, but nothing reliable to kill hoards (unless you're talking about cognis flamers or incendine combusters...)
I have two problems with Corpuscarii, their cost and their slot. I feel they should not only be 4 points cheaper, but I really don't see why they aren't a troop choice. Having them as a troop would not only make them more likely to be used, but 18 points is a pretty heavy tax for a unit that is T3 and only has a 5++ 5+++ save. IF they get into range to blast away and then assault, they can do some real damage but they need to get there. I hate to suggest drop pods, but I am overtly surprised that cult has no delivery system for a 6" move, 12" range foot unit.
The issue with Corpuscarii to me is that you can easily get Allies to fill in the anti-horde component of your army -- Skitarii vanguard put out a lot of shots at a better range than CEPriests, are half as expensive per model, and come 10 to a box instead of only 5. CEPriests I can only see being useful if you are running a solely Mechanicus army, because then you are indeed pretty starved for anti-horde options. However, since allying feels very right for Mechanicus (bringing really good tough firepower from Destroyers and Robots) and most of the allies you'll use are significantly better at anti-horde than Cult Mechanicus is, I can't see CEPriests being really useful. Most of the rest of the imperium is good at anti-horde, from massed bolter marines to massed lasguns to Skitarii firepower to Eldar S6.
Fulgurites have worse problems for me, because the sequence of events required to make them worthwhile is extremely specific -- they need to get survive and get into CC with a weak unit (as a 6" move unit) kill that unit in order to get a good save that then they can only really take advantage of if they then manage to catch an MC in close combat. Furthermore, Monstrous Creatures are probably the easiest things for Mechanicus to deal with -- the S6 AP3 from the robots and the mass grav-shots will annihilate any ground MC, which is all that the SEPriests can get into CC with. At least the CEPriests get to put out a lot of attacks/shots against horde armies.
Thats the main electro priest problem, they do things units that cost less and are more survivable with longer range or better guns/close combat for a higher points price
They're flat out not good units pure numbers wise, for any situation
Your Kastellans putting out 12+ shots and double shot torrent flamers not enough to kill hordes?
Cult mech is self sufficient. Kataphrons kill MCs, Breachers kill vehicles and Kastellans kill infantry.
They are vastly improved with allies though. I feel their weakness is dedicated assault ( which is what Knights are for) and the psychic phase. (Conclave anyone?)
My army will be cult-only... Also, it's important to note that the fulgurite are melee anti-MC, while the alternatives are ranged. If the monstrous creature has the power to remain in combat for most of the game, then the cult would be seriously threatened by that. They could very well serve as a bubble wrap for servitors or the Dominus, defending them from a combat-happy Wraithknight.
Maximum firing range of Heavy Grav Cannons - 30''.
What I'm telling you is that there's no guarantee that I'll even have enough guns free to shoot at it with... If some warp spiders, swooping hawks, jetbikes, or anything decides to lock my anything in close combat, then the wraithknight will be largely free to approach. Now there's a happy detail in that situation for the cult. If the Fulgurite are there, then those faster weaker units that the Eldar could tie me up with quickly actually do so, they'll be weak enough in melee for my Fulgurites to beat and THEN THEY GET THE 3++ before the Wraithknight made it there! It's almost like the electro priests were made for the sole purpose of covering a pure cult army's blind spots.
Maximum firing range of Heavy Grav Cannons - 30''.
What I'm telling you is that there's no guarantee that I'll even have enough guns free to shoot at it with... If some warp spiders, swooping hawks, jetbikes, or anything decides to lock my anything in close combat, then the wraithknight will be largely free to approach. Now there's a happy detail in that situation for the cult. If the Fulgurite are there, then those faster weaker units that the Eldar could tie me up with quickly actually do so, they'll be weak enough in melee for my Fulgurites to beat and THEN THEY GET THE 3++ before the Wraithknight made it there! It's almost like the electro priests were made for the sole purpose of covering a pure cult army's blind spots.
Unless that unit locking the Fulgurites in is, in fact, Warp Spiders or Jetbikes. Booth of whom carry 3+ saves and hit first. There's little guarantee the Fulgurites win that bout without Canticle assistance. Of course, this also assumes the Fulgurites weren't simply drowned in the S6 firepower eldar know and love. But hey, in a scenario where all of your guns worth killing a Wraithknight can't because they shot at something else or are engaged in close combat, someone was silly enough to run a small unit directly into CC with a unit incapable of anything but CC, lost that fight, THEN brought a Wraithknight close enough to be charged by the things with 3++ and instant death... yes, Fulgurites would be decent.
Maximum firing range of Heavy Grav Cannons - 30''.
What I'm telling you is that there's no guarantee that I'll even have enough guns free to shoot at it with... If some warp spiders, swooping hawks, jetbikes, or anything decides to lock my anything in close combat, then the wraithknight will be largely free to approach. Now there's a happy detail in that situation for the cult. If the Fulgurite are there, then those faster weaker units that the Eldar could tie me up with quickly actually do so, they'll be weak enough in melee for my Fulgurites to beat and THEN THEY GET THE 3++ before the Wraithknight made it there! It's almost like the electro priests were made for the sole purpose of covering a pure cult army's blind spots.
Unless that unit locking the Fulgurites in is, in fact, Warp Spiders or Jetbikes. Booth of whom carry 3+ saves and hit first. There's little guarantee the Fulgurites win that bout without Canticle assistance. Of course, this also assumes the Fulgurites weren't simply drowned in the S6 firepower eldar know and love. But hey, in a scenario where all of your guns worth killing a Wraithknight can't because they shot at something else or are engaged in close combat, someone was silly enough to run a small unit directly into CC with a unit incapable of anything but CC, lost that fight, THEN brought a Wraithknight close enough to be charged by the things with 3++ and instant death... yes, Fulgurites would be decent.
Maximum firing range of Heavy Grav Cannons - 30''.
What I'm telling you is that there's no guarantee that I'll even have enough guns free to shoot at it with... If some warp spiders, swooping hawks, jetbikes, or anything decides to lock my anything in close combat, then the wraithknight will be largely free to approach. Now there's a happy detail in that situation for the cult. If the Fulgurite are there, then those faster weaker units that the Eldar could tie me up with quickly actually do so, they'll be weak enough in melee for my Fulgurites to beat and THEN THEY GET THE 3++ before the Wraithknight made it there! It's almost like the electro priests were made for the sole purpose of covering a pure cult army's blind spots.
Unless that unit locking the Fulgurites in is, in fact, Warp Spiders or Jetbikes. Booth of whom carry 3+ saves and hit first. There's little guarantee the Fulgurites win that bout without Canticle assistance. Of course, this also assumes the Fulgurites weren't simply drowned in the S6 firepower eldar know and love. But hey, in a scenario where all of your guns worth killing a Wraithknight can't because they shot at something else or are engaged in close combat, someone was silly enough to run a small unit directly into CC with a unit incapable of anything but CC, lost that fight, THEN brought a Wraithknight close enough to be charged by the things with 3++ and instant death... yes, Fulgurites would be decent.
The point being that won't happen and that's why.
Look, you want to use Electro-Priests. We get it. No one is going to stop you from doing so at gunpoint. But you're not going to magically turn anyone around into thinking they're great when it's very, very clear that they're not. You can use them to fill certain roles in a sub-par manner. If that's fine by you, go for it. But you haven't found some revolutionary way to play Cult Mechanicus, just a poor one.
In a War Convocation, allied taxipods are one of the stronger options. Are there any there allied combination that might beat or at least match up with having the taxis? I was thinking of including a librarius conclave for prescience/perfect timing on kataphrons and maybe if necc, invisibility on the IK to tie up any deathstar.
I played a War Convocation recently and was horrified at how effective it was. Like, I felt bad for both of my opponents in the two games that I played.
They were 2500 points, with 840 points of Adepta Sororitas and 1660 for the War Convocation.
Deshkar wrote: In a War Convocation, allied taxipods are one of the stronger options. Are there any there allied combination that might beat or at least match up with having the taxis? I was thinking of including a librarius conclave for prescience/perfect timing on kataphrons and maybe if necc, invisibility on the IK to tie up any deathstar.
I haven't played with my force yet (Still being painted), but my theories have so far been these:
1. Drop pod taxi for Kataphrons and Vanguard.
2. Any fortification with CM detachment, mostly the Plasma Obliterator (loses get hots, gets canticles, etc).
3. Culexus/Callidus Assassins to break up deathstars or distract the enemy without needing to invest in a crap ton of points on psykers. Throw in a Coteaz if needed.
4. Taking a separate Cohort of Kastellans formation with second Dominus to get IWND relic and cognis on them creating a near unkillable unit.
A maxed unit of Fulgarites with a GK libby that has the book and ML3.
Try to roll for hammerhand, sanctuary, and gate of infinity, then go around stomping people in CC with S7 ID attacks with a 2++ save after wiping a unit.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:Your Kastellans putting out 12+ shots and double shot torrent flamers not enough to kill hordes?
Incendine Combustors are Asssault 1, unless you're talking about equipping both Kastelans with Incendines. I usually run 50% Incendine 50% Phosphor for the shoulder weapon.
Wilson wrote:
As mentioned before, war congregation vs new marines with skyhammer
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:Your Kastellans putting out 12+ shots and double shot torrent flamers not enough to kill hordes?
Incendine Combustors are Asssault 1, unless you're talking about equipping both Kastelans with Incendines. I usually run 50% Incendine 50% Phosphor for the shoulder weapon.
The one Protocol lets you fire each shoulder Flamer twice, which is what I think he was referring to.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:Your Kastellans putting out 12+ shots and double shot torrent flamers not enough to kill hordes?
Incendine Combustors are Asssault 1, unless you're talking about equipping both Kastelans with Incendines. I usually run 50% Incendine 50% Phosphor for the shoulder weapon.
The one Protocol lets you fire each shoulder Flamer twice, which is what I think he was referring to.
Whoa. I completely forgot that that protocol applies to the flamer too. My bad! (Also, thank you! I'm now salivating at the prospects of my Cohort putting out 4 torrent flamers....)
Finished watching the battle report. Absolutely brutal damage output, as usual, though it looked like there were some dice imbalances as far as luck went in a couple situations.
A couple of things I noticed (forgive the armchair quarterbacking/back seat driver nature of these as they are as much suggestions as questions):
1.) Why did you choose to go after the super tuff biker death star with your alpha strike? In a Maelstrom primary mission I feel like you would have been better off eliminating all of your opponent's MSU ob sec capabilities with ease. The biker star seemed like it was ill positioned to be able to accomplish much in his first turn anyway.
2.) With an impending 40 rerolling to hit/wound grav shots why didn't you elect for stealth and shrouded on your first turn? I understand you wanted to do as much damage as possible by twin linking in your turn, but with that canticle you could have cut his damage out put in half. Again, if you would have concentrated on killing everything but the death star, you still would have been in a good position with even more models left. I say targeting the death star is a bad idea mostly out of experience with playing a Plague Drone star regularly. More often than not my unit of Drones has a 3++/4+ FNP and I am always happy inside when my opponent chooses to target it over the support elements in my army.
Good game overall though, and equally good battle report. You guys know your armies, go for the throat, and present it in a well presented package. All things I enjoy
A couple of things I noticed (forgive the armchair quarterbacking/back seat driver nature of these as they are as much suggestions as questions):
1.) Why did you choose to go after the super tuff biker death star with your alpha strike? In a Maelstrom primary mission I feel like you would have been better off eliminating all of your opponent's MSU ob sec capabilities with ease. The biker star seemed like it was ill positioned to be able to accomplish much in his first turn anyway.
2.) With an impending 40 rerolling to hit/wound grav shots why didn't you elect for stealth and shrouded on your first turn? I understand you wanted to do as much damage as possible by twin linking in your turn, but with that canticle you could have cut his damage out put in half. Again, if you would have concentrated on killing everything but the death star, you still would have been in a good position with even more models left. I say targeting the death star is a bad idea mostly out of experience with playing a Plague Drone star regularly. More often than not my unit of Drones has a 3++/4+ FNP and I am always happy inside when my opponent chooses to target it over the support elements in my army.
Good game overall though, and equally good battle report. You guys know your armies, go for the throat, and present it in a well presented package. All things I enjoy
No forgiveness required bud, I think you are completely right. I totally wasted the grav and plasma squads on those guys but at the time i really couldn't get my head around as to how tough they really were - alas we live and learn!I think Stealth and shrouded would have been a great shout but Grav Kataphrons without the rerolls is really poor shooting - its only ( I say only, forgive me chaos players) 9 hits.
A lot of lessons learned from this game, particularly with the WL traits and target priority vs the new Iron hands. I hope others can learn a little something too and bring the win to the Mechanics!
A couple of things I noticed (forgive the armchair quarterbacking/back seat driver nature of these as they are as much suggestions as questions):
1.) Why did you choose to go after the super tuff biker death star with your alpha strike? In a Maelstrom primary mission I feel like you would have been better off eliminating all of your opponent's MSU ob sec capabilities with ease. The biker star seemed like it was ill positioned to be able to accomplish much in his first turn anyway.
2.) With an impending 40 rerolling to hit/wound grav shots why didn't you elect for stealth and shrouded on your first turn? I understand you wanted to do as much damage as possible by twin linking in your turn, but with that canticle you could have cut his damage out put in half. Again, if you would have concentrated on killing everything but the death star, you still would have been in a good position with even more models left. I say targeting the death star is a bad idea mostly out of experience with playing a Plague Drone star regularly. More often than not my unit of Drones has a 3++/4+ FNP and I am always happy inside when my opponent chooses to target it over the support elements in my army.
Good game overall though, and equally good battle report. You guys know your armies, go for the throat, and present it in a well presented package. All things I enjoy
No forgiveness required bud, I think you are completely right. I totally wasted the grav and plasma squads on those guys but at the time i really couldn't get my head around as to how tough they really were - alas we live and learn!I think Stealth and shrouded would have been a great shout but Grav Kataphrons without the rerolls is really poor shooting - its only ( I say only, forgive me chaos players) 9 hits.
A lot of lessons learned from this game, particularly with the WL traits and target priority vs the new Iron hands. I hope others can learn a little something too and bring the win to the Mechanics!
Nerd, out.
Hmm. Popping Stealth/Shrouded would've negated his damage a lot, true, but the Skyhammer formation chooses to come in on T1 or T2, so if he didn't come in on T1 it would've been wasted. Popping it again on T2 would've spent his re-use a Canticle ability... That said, I would've popped it T1 to either dissuade him from a T1 drop still, getting you more shots on target while still being alive, hopefully. Tough call there.
A couple of things I noticed (forgive the armchair quarterbacking/back seat driver nature of these as they are as much suggestions as questions):
1.) Why did you choose to go after the super tuff biker death star with your alpha strike? In a Maelstrom primary mission I feel like you would have been better off eliminating all of your opponent's MSU ob sec capabilities with ease. The biker star seemed like it was ill positioned to be able to accomplish much in his first turn anyway.
2.) With an impending 40 rerolling to hit/wound grav shots why didn't you elect for stealth and shrouded on your first turn? I understand you wanted to do as much damage as possible by twin linking in your turn, but with that canticle you could have cut his damage out put in half. Again, if you would have concentrated on killing everything but the death star, you still would have been in a good position with even more models left. I say targeting the death star is a bad idea mostly out of experience with playing a Plague Drone star regularly. More often than not my unit of Drones has a 3++/4+ FNP and I am always happy inside when my opponent chooses to target it over the support elements in my army.
Good game overall though, and equally good battle report. You guys know your armies, go for the throat, and present it in a well presented package. All things I enjoy
No forgiveness required bud, I think you are completely right. I totally wasted the grav and plasma squads on those guys but at the time i really couldn't get my head around as to how tough they really were - alas we live and learn!I think Stealth and shrouded would have been a great shout but Grav Kataphrons without the rerolls is really poor shooting - its only ( I say only, forgive me chaos players) 9 hits.
A lot of lessons learned from this game, particularly with the WL traits and target priority vs the new Iron hands. I hope others can learn a little something too and bring the win to the Mechanics!
Nerd, out.
Hmm. Popping Stealth/Shrouded would've negated his damage a lot, true, but the Skyhammer formation chooses to come in on T1 or T2, so if he didn't come in on T1 it would've been wasted. Popping it again on T2 would've spent his re-use a Canticle ability... That said, I would've popped it T1 to either dissuade him from a T1 drop still, getting you more shots on target while still being alive, hopefully. Tough call there.
The Skyhammer Formation has to declare during deployment whether it will arrive turn 1 or 2 so he would have know when it was coming down. That's the only saving grace against a formation that powerful in my opinion.
@Wilson: Now that you say it, I can see how you thought it was possible to neuter his star a little more than you did. When I'm thinking about plague drones, they are all 3W models so lessening its damage output is a little harder. Each wound you do to the bikes knocks off a grav gun which helps. Now you know, and that's why we practice, no?
Again assuming you target his MSU scoring, 9 hits from the Kataphrons is going to do 6W to bikes which *should* polish off his 3 man biker units while jinking. Not much room for bad dice, but there is room for good dice
Overall, seems like a really strong list. Good luck with it!
Wilson wrote: Side note : We read it that you must declare during deployment when the Skyhammer formation will arrive so, you always know when the rain is coming
Deshkar wrote: In a War Convocation, allied taxipods are one of the stronger options. Are there any there allied combination that might beat or at least match up with having the taxis? I was thinking of including a librarius conclave for prescience/perfect timing on kataphrons and maybe if necc, invisibility on the IK to tie up any deathstar.
it's very powerful but then you are taking 4 different sources of models and you are going above 2000 points likely. ,
The war concovation really doesnt benefit that much from the taxipods. It only has 1 squad of vanguard.
Vanguard in taxipods are GREAT, really they are the competitive other option besides the war convocation. If you are playing 2500+ points, take both and combine them.
Deshkar wrote: In a War Convocation, allied taxipods are one of the stronger options. Are there any there allied combination that might beat or at least match up with having the taxis? I was thinking of including a librarius conclave for prescience/perfect timing on kataphrons and maybe if necc, invisibility on the IK to tie up any deathstar.
I haven't played with my force yet (Still being painted), but my theories have so far been these:
1. Drop pod taxi for Kataphrons and Vanguard.
2. Any fortification with CM detachment, mostly the Plasma Obliterator (loses get hots, gets canticles, etc).
3. Culexus/Callidus Assassins to break up deathstars or distract the enemy without needing to invest in a crap ton of points on psykers. Throw in a Coteaz if needed.
why put the Kataphrons in Pods? Just to ensure they get to shoot first turn? With a 30" range and 6" move you would be better starting them on the table in cover or behind LOS and moving them out first turn. They can reach most of the board.
4. Taking a separate Cohort of Kastellans formation with second Dominus to get IWND relic and cognis on them creating a near unkillable unit.
you cannot put a second dominus in the unit. ICs cannot join units with MCs in them. You can put a second relic on one of the datasmiths, but they are more squishy than dominuses if anyone has anything with precision shots and AP2 or mass wounds
He mentioned Cohort, which would imply the 2 kastelan mantiples with a tech priest, which is where hes getting his 2nd tech priest from, which is perfectly legal
One of the big this is that Kataphrons are slow, pods help that and makes for a pretty nasty alpha strike either way
Pods can fit in 1850 lists and helps, and and the advise you're giving saying "There are other options" isnt helpful when hes specifcally trying to use the war convocation.
I'm curious to see how most TOs react to the War Convocation, since the typical "3 sources/detachments" would be confusing in this instance, as the whole formation is one detachment of 3 sources...
I really like the way you guys did the battle report. Quick, succinct. I don't have 3 hours to watch a couple of guys jaw-jack and roll dice. Nicely done. Subscribed to your channel. Would have been nice to see the game ending roll on camera though...
Been skimming so aplogies if it's been covered, with regard to the admech war convocation, is the knight crusader something that would mesh well as a choice?
Only just started putting some admech together as I've had overtime money burning a hole in my pocket and picked up the new knight kit today, and aesthetically it's my top choice. Just not sure if the loss of D attacks is worth the high points cost when you're already stretched with the convocation.
Ignatius-Grulgor wrote: Been skimming so aplogies if it's been covered, with regard to the admech war convocation, is the knight crusader something that would mesh well as a choice?
Only just started putting some admech together as I've had overtime money burning a hole in my pocket and picked up the new knight kit today, and aesthetically it's my top choice. Just not sure if the loss of D attacks is worth the high points cost when you're already stretched with the convocation.
The loss of D attacks only matters if you're going up against other Knight-esque units or LoWs. Otherwise the second main weapon provides more utility in an army that's already really shooty. Just remember to play it super aggressively - you still easily wipe most units in close combat between being a super-heavy walker and stomps. Also if you decide to be cheesy with the rules, remember that your ranged weapons have strikedown (unless this has since been remedied in 7th?)
Otherwise, if you're points starved, go with the Warden.
More and more Skitarii and Cult Mech batreps are starting to come out of the woodwork onto youtube. Still have yet to see one with the War Convocation besides FLG's with Reecius.
ultimentra wrote: More and more Skitarii and Cult Mech batreps are starting to come out of the woodwork onto youtube. Still have yet to see one with the War Convocation besides FLG's with Reecius.
Getting back into 40k since briefly playing almost ten years ago. The skitarii caught my eye and I'm currently building up a set of the rangers/vanguard. However, I'm not totally sure how I should build these.
It seems like vanguard are preferred over rangers, so building them with the radium carbines seems to be the first order.
Secondly, I'm not totally sure what squad size or additional weapons are optimal. I'm planning to build towards a 1500pt list with a skitarii maniple consisting of a various assortment of vanguard, 4 ballistari, 2 dragoons, along with a cohort cybernetic. So, I'd want the vanguard to supplement the ballistari, dragoons, and robots.
Without running lascannons on the ballistari, it seems that 5 vanguard +2 arc rifle would help against high AV. I've heard that the plasma cavaliers are solid, but I'm not entirely sold on the 30 point cost being attached to a pretty squishy unit. Omnispex seems mandatory.
I was thinking of having a 10 man with 3 plasma cavaliers with omni (larger squad to provide more cushion for expensive weapons), along with a couple 5 man squads with 2 arc rifles and omni. Or, the if the the plasma isn't worth it, then just have 4x5 Vanguard with 2 arc rifles and omni.
Or, I'm just thinking of running them naked expect for omnispex, and giving lascannons to the ballistari to take care of high AV.
nerdbot wrote: Getting back into 40k since briefly playing almost ten years ago. The skitarii caught my eye and I'm currently building up a set of the rangers/vanguard. However, I'm not totally sure how I should build these.
It seems like vanguard are preferred over rangers, so building them with the radium carbines seems to be the first order.
Secondly, I'm not totally sure what squad size or additional weapons are optimal. I'm planning to build towards a 1500pt list with a skitarii maniple consisting of a various assortment of vanguard, 4 ballistari, 2 dragoons, along with a cohort cybernetic. So, I'd want the vanguard to supplement the ballistari, dragoons, and robots.
Without running lascannons on the ballistari, it seems that 5 vanguard +2 arc rifle would help against high AV. I've heard that the plasma cavaliers are solid, but I'm not entirely sold on the 30 point cost being attached to a pretty squishy unit. Omnispex seems mandatory.
I was thinking of having a 10 man with 3 plasma cavaliers with omni (larger squad to provide more cushion for expensive weapons), along with a couple 5 man squads with 2 arc rifles and omni. Or, the if the the plasma isn't worth it, then just have 4x5 Vanguard with 2 arc rifles and omni.
Or, I'm just thinking of running them naked expect for omnispex, and giving lascannons to the ballistari to take care of high AV.
If you're going to run robots, unless you're using the formation (which mind, is a huge points sink), you'll need troops choices. Take two squads of Kataphrons for 36 long-ranged grav shots. That'll give you enough anti-tank firepower. Plasma calivers will fry your own squad without the Convocation's ignore gets hot. I'm not a fan of putting my biggest anti-tank weapons on squishy platforms. Ballistarii lack the constant 5+ cover the Dragoons have, which makes me nervous. They remind me of running my own Elysian Tauros Venator squads which each had a TL Lascannon and 2 HK missiles per vehicle (3 a squad), but I had those with camo netting sitting in ruins for 3+ cover, so they were a fair bit more survivable. Those things were squishy as hell. If an opponent so much as looked at it, the vehicle squad disappeared.
If you're going to run robots, unless you're using the formation (which mind, is a huge points sink), you'll need troops choices. Take two squads of Kataphrons for 36 long-ranged grav shots. That'll give you enough anti-tank firepower. Plasma calivers will fry your own squad without the Convocation's ignore gets hot. I'm not a fan of putting my biggest anti-tank weapons on squishy platforms. Ballistarii lack the constant 5+ cover the Dragoons have, which makes me nervous. They remind me of running my own Elysian Tauros Venator squads which each had a TL Lascannon and 2 HK missiles per vehicle (3 a squad), but I had those with camo netting sitting in ruins for 3+ cover, so they were a fair bit more survivable. Those things were squishy as hell. If an opponent so much as looked at it, the vehicle squad disappeared.
I was planning to run the cohort cybernetica formation. The squad of three cavalier would probably have the alpha as the warlord for the re-rolls of preferred enemy. Although just ditching the cavaliers allows me to run the dominus as my warlord -- a far more durable choice. Yea, it seems like the lascannons on the ballistari is a bit risky, so maybe i'll go with the arc rifles route unless I decide to not go with the robot formation and take the kataphrons.
Balistarii are bad. Dragoons are far better, as you have plently of ranged AV (Arc Rifle, Heavy Arc Rifle, Neutron Laser) and plently of anti-MC (Radium weapons, Plasma Caliver, Transuranic Arquebus) already.
Verviedi wrote: Balistarii are bad. Dragoons are far better, as you have plently of ranged AV (Arc Rifle, Heavy Arc Rifle, Neutron Laser) and plently of anti-MC (Radium weapons, Plasma Caliver, Transuranic Arquebus) already.
Amen. Ballerstarii suck for their cost. (£$ & pts!) avoid with caution.
Question and I think it is a silly one- can you restore a wound on a Dominus using the master of the machines special rule if it is locked in combat?
That's 4 str7 AP4 TL shots at 48", at the same target for 110 points. What's that good for? I simply don't see a use for Balistarii that I can't cover using other, more effective methods.
Verviedi wrote: That's 4 str7 AP4 TL shots at 48", at the same target for 110 points. What's that good for? I simply don't see a use for Balistarii that I can't cover using other, more effective methods.
That's 4 Str7 AP4 TL shots at 48"...that on "To Hit" rolls of 6 have the ability to single out a specific model in a unit, on a platform that moves 9" every turn which also gets to benefit from Doctrina Imperatives.
Is it game-winning? Probably not. But it is enough of a thing that you can start forcing "Look Out, Sir!" tests on a unit and whittling a critical unit down before laying into it with your "better" weaponry.
I'll give a second though on the ballistari. The autocannons don't do anything particularly well, but the ballistari seem to be versatile and mobile, even working as AA, and taking them as MSU would seem to limit their fragility.
Any more opinions on the plasma caliver? Still not sure if it's worth dumping 90 points in 100 points worth of vanguard. I'll probably build my first set of vanguard as 5 and 5 with 2 arc rifles each anyway.
You need to get them where you need them. Most folks who've been using them successfully ally with marines so they can use the pods to put them right where they need them.
nerdbot wrote: I'll give a second though on the ballistari. The autocannons don't do anything particularly well, but the ballistari seem to be versatile and mobile, even working as AA, and taking them as MSU would seem to limit their fragility.
Any more opinions on the plasma caliver? Still not sure if it's worth dumping 90 points in 100 points worth of vanguard. I'll probably build my first set of vanguard as 5 and 5 with 2 arc rifles each anyway.
Er, I believe its seems to be the majority consensus that plasma calivers are fantastic on vangaurd, if your warlord is there or you have something to mitigate their "gets hot"
My assumption is that by turn 2, your Vanguard with Plasma Calivers have done their damage, and since they are such a hard hitting, yet delicate target your opponent will likely have been trying to kill them. If they aren't dead on turn 3 something has likely gone horribly wrong for your opponent and the Gets Hot! wont matter anyways. Turns 1 and 2 the Gets Hot! rule can be mitigated via Doctrina Imperatives which give them BS 6 and 7, rerolling those 1s. Of course getting that juicy PE is always better, if somewhat reckless considering that you are practically giving away slay the warlord to your opponent. On the contrary, most of the time I find that even if I try to hide my warlord, either by physically hiding him on the board or by hiding him in a hardy squad he/she tends to die anyway. Might as well do something useful I suppose.
Verviedi wrote: Balistarii are bad. Dragoons are far better, as you have plently of ranged AV (Arc Rifle, Heavy Arc Rifle, Neutron Laser) and plently of anti-MC (Radium weapons, Plasma Caliver, Transuranic Arquebus) already.
Amen. Ballerstarii suck for their cost. (£$ & pts!) avoid with caution.
Question and I think it is a silly one- can you restore a wound on a Dominus using the master of the machines special rule if it is locked in combat?
That's a pretty good question. At first glance I said yes, but looking at it deeper it say.. probably not? Only because it a says "In each or your shooting phases, instead of firing one of his weapons". Had it said just "In each of your shooting phases" or "instead or using one of his weapons/attacks" I'd green light it. But as it stands melee seems to the way to lock down dominus healing.
Verviedi wrote: Balistarii are bad. Dragoons are far better, as you have plently of ranged AV (Arc Rifle, Heavy Arc Rifle, Neutron Laser) and plently of anti-MC (Radium weapons, Plasma Caliver, Transuranic Arquebus) already.
Amen. Ballerstarii suck for their cost. (£$ & pts!) avoid with caution.
Question and I think it is a silly one- can you restore a wound on a Dominus using the master of the machines special rule if it is locked in combat?
No. You need to give up one shooting attack to do so.
Had a game the other night and destroyed an decurion list with canoptek harvest. He just could not do enough damage to me and could not make enough saves.
Skyhammer Annihilation Force (White Scars Doctrines) - 1100
2x 10 Devastators, 4 Grav Cannons, Drop Pod
2x 10 Assault Marines, 2 Flamers, 2 Eviscerators, Vet Sgt, Melta Bomb
Now I know it is not a pure mechanicus list - it uses one of the toughest formations in 40k. But the skitarii maniple was amazing in the list. I did assault with my vanguard (aura is great). Turn one I had eight units tied down ... my dragoons and vanguard were the perfect mop up squads for the list. This is a list that seemed to be almost OP - despite not having any remove cover buffs etc., it has such a devastating amount of dakka and cc that it will run over a lot of lists. I combat squad my marines of course. The scout plus dunestrider plus first turn assault plus pinning - well the combination is powerful. Also the combination of white scar doctrines (hit and run) and canticles (choosing to increase WS or BS) is quite good. I was a bit worried that the dragoons would be taken out early but TBH but they performed so well - I think that I had three squads helps a lot dividing the firepower of my opponent with more credible threats than can easily be handled. Dragoons get 4 S8 attacks on the charge at I6 and a squad usually gets 3-4 bonus attacks as well. It also means you can only overwatch one squad if multi-charging the squads.
While the skyhammer is the thrust of the list the Skitarii maniple does a lot of damage beyond turn one ... it greases the wheels and it really is what makes the whole list tick.
Vanguard/dragoons are a lot of nasty in this list especially if you are have units pinned or tied up and no overwatch. There is a lot of synergy here.
The dragoons make me smile TBH. I feel I need to tweak the vanguard though. Really they don't need as many upgrades on the alpha so I'm thinking of splitting them up a bit more MSU ...
Those same results could be gotten with any other snooty army added to a skyhammer list (which is really all this is, skyhammer and friends). They don't even have to be battle brothers because they won't be within 12 inches at the start. When you tie up 8 units you want turn one, anything can look good. Hell imagine 750 points of orks running across the field unmolested for 2 turns. This was a bad example of how admech "made a list godlike" you would be better off with the heavy drop pod skitarii list to prove your point.
Yea, I'd argue the skyhammer had a lot to do with the success of that list. Not that there isn't any inherent synergy between the two, the striders being super fast and all the Scout moves works well with the drop pod shut down you imposed.
Now for my question, what should I expand on next? I have 2 squads of rangers, 4 squads of Vanguard, 2 dragoons, 2 walkers, 2 squads of Rust stalkers, 1 of Infiltrators, and 1 unit of Kataphron Battlebots. Should I build more AdMech, and get the Dominus and some Breachers for that Formation with Deepstrike?
Anyone have any suggestions on how to properly outfit an alpha in a 5-man ranger squad w/ two arquebus? At the moment they're my only troops, but eventually they'll just become my backfield objective sitters in a larger AdMech force.
Gitsplitta wrote: Anyone have any suggestions on how to properly outfit an alpha in a 5-man ranger squad w/ two arquebus? At the moment they're my only troops, but eventually they'll just become my backfield objective sitters in a larger AdMech force.
MrFlutterPie wrote: I haven't heard that the plasma obliteratiors kits had poor quality control. Is there a thread discussing that?
I've heard that... and maybe got lucky, but the one I snagged on Ebay last week turned out just fine. I am sure where there is smoke, there is fire, and i'm not convinced it is a very pretty fortification (until its in your hands you really don't realize they upsized a Plasma Cannon in CAD and stuck it right on top of a Bastion), but it feels tailor fit for the Ad-Mech Mega-Army.
Wingeds wrote:Yea, I'd argue the skyhammer had a lot to do with the success of that list. Not that there isn't any inherent synergy between the two, the striders being super fast and all the Scout moves works well with the drop pod shut down you imposed.
Now for my question, what should I expand on next? I have 2 squads of rangers, 4 squads of Vanguard, 2 dragoons, 2 walkers, 2 squads of Rust stalkers, 1 of Infiltrators, and 1 unit of Kataphron Battlebots. Should I build more AdMech, and get the Dominus and some Breachers for that Formation with Deepstrike?
Get another set of Kataphrons and a Dominus, get a Knight, and you can now run a War Convocation. Or get the Kastelans for the IWND formation.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
MrFlutterPie wrote: I haven't heard that the plasma obliteratiors kits had poor quality control. Is there a thread discussing that?
I've heard that... and maybe got lucky, but the one I snagged on Ebay last week turned out just fine. I am sure where there is smoke, there is fire, and i'm not convinced it is a very pretty fortification (until its in your hands you really don't realize they upsized a Plasma Cannon in CAD and stuck it right on top of a Bastion), but it feels tailor fit for the Ad-Mech Mega-Army.
That's why I'm still planning to convert mine to be more AdMech in feel.
We were playing Maelstrom Mission 2, Diagonal Deployment. He went first and I failed to seize.
Most of my Skitarii were deployed on the left flank, Robots and Knight centrally, one Destroyer central, the other right w/ Dominus, Rangers on right holding an objective.
He'd deployed one CSM Rhino on each side, letters and Maulerfiend on my left, Spawn and Dogs+Lord centrally, Thirster hiding in back. Grinder on far right, Termicide and Drake in reserve.
I made a huge mistake and actually used Scout instead of hanging back.This let him get hounds into a Vanguard unit T1 and wipe it out. On his T2 he made a lot of critical charges -- spawn into right unit of destroyers, grinder into my robots, and I really thought I was done for, but lucky Smash rolls blew up the Grinder, freeing the robots to be a menace and destroy the right unit of CSM.
I got my Knight into CC with the dogs, and eventually killed them all and the lord (lucky 6 on the stomp), losing 4 HP from PF attacks. The Bloodthirster had landed T2 to charge the Knight, but my opponent had failed to destroy enough of my shooting on the left flank (specifically a full vanguard and full grav-destroyer unit) which was able to take him out before he got into CC with the Knight.
The Ruststalkers and Infiltrators together took out the fiend (Haywire grenades are wonderful), as well as the left squad of marines and some shot-up bloodletters. His Spawn took out my right unit of destroyers, but enough random shots and Dominus axe attacks were eventually able to clean them up. The heldrake was felled T3 by rear armor Destroyers and Vanguard, his Terminators never came in, and Daemonkin was tabled.
Overall, it was a combination of some mistakes with harsher consequences on his part, some really critical bad rolls from him and some critical good rolls from me that wound up making the game so lopsided: Knight rolling a bunch of stomps and getting a 6 on the lord, robots getting a 6 on a smash to blow up the Grinder, the drake failing to do much of anything (although his target selection was suboptimal, going after destroyers instead of vanguard), him failing morale/initiative checks to get his CSM swept by my Sicarians.
Overall, my list isn't anywhere near as good as a war convocation, which I'll probably build towards, but it's still got a lot of good stuff in it. It's relatively fragile except for the Robots, but there's a huge diversity in offensive output and so much room for good play.
ultimentra wrote: Out of curiosity, why don't more guys go for the Warden or the Dakkaknight for their WarConvo?
Warden is an absolute beast. I really enjoy it, especially with over the head missiles with canticles. Not tried the dakkaknight but that's because I can't fit it into a list with pods.
Thariinye wrote:Had a game against Khorne Daemonkin on Thursday, was very close for a bit, but then heavily broke in my favor and I ended up tabling him T3.
My List (1850) (I'd run War Convocation, but I don't have Dragoons or Onagers):
Spoiler:
Mechanicus Congregation:
Dominus, Conversion Field
2x3 Destroyers, Full Grav, 1 Flamer in each unit
Robots, Full Phosphor
Skitarii Maniple:
Min Rangers, Arquebus
2x7 Vanguard, 2x Arc Rifle, Omniscope.
Min Rustalkers, Razor/Claw, Conversion Field
Min Infiltrators, Taser/Pistol, Conversion Field, Omniscient Mask
We were playing Maelstrom Mission 2, Diagonal Deployment. He went first and I failed to seize.
Most of my Skitarii were deployed on the left flank, Robots and Knight centrally, one Destroyer central, the other right w/ Dominus, Rangers on right holding an objective.
He'd deployed one CSM Rhino on each side, letters and Maulerfiend on my left, Spawn and Dogs+Lord centrally, Thirster hiding in back. Grinder on far right, Termicide and Drake in reserve.
I made a huge mistake and actually used Scout instead of hanging back.This let him get hounds into a Vanguard unit T1 and wipe it out. On his T2 he made a lot of critical charges -- spawn into right unit of destroyers, grinder into my robots, and I really thought I was done for, but lucky Smash rolls blew up the Grinder, freeing the robots to be a menace and destroy the right unit of CSM.
I got my Knight into CC with the dogs, and eventually killed them all and the lord (lucky 6 on the stomp), losing 4 HP from PF attacks. The Bloodthirster had landed T2 to charge the Knight, but my opponent had failed to destroy enough of my shooting on the left flank (specifically a full vanguard and full grav-destroyer unit) which was able to take him out before he got into CC with the Knight.
The Ruststalkers and Infiltrators together took out the fiend (Haywire grenades are wonderful), as well as the left squad of marines and some shot-up bloodletters. His Spawn took out my right unit of destroyers, but enough random shots and Dominus axe attacks were eventually able to clean them up. The heldrake was felled T3 by rear armor Destroyers and Vanguard, his Terminators never came in, and Daemonkin was tabled.
Overall, it was a combination of some mistakes with harsher consequences on his part, some really critical bad rolls from him and some critical good rolls from me that wound up making the game so lopsided: Knight rolling a bunch of stomps and getting a 6 on the lord, robots getting a 6 on a smash to blow up the Grinder, the drake failing to do much of anything (although his target selection was suboptimal, going after destroyers instead of vanguard), him failing morale/initiative checks to get his CSM swept by my Sicarians.
Overall, my list isn't anywhere near as good as a war convocation, which I'll probably build towards, but it's still got a lot of good stuff in it. It's relatively fragile except for the Robots, but there's a huge diversity in offensive output and so much room for good play.
Interestingly, your formation is very close to the Convocation formation (missing a few units) - would you consider just bumping it up to the Convocation for the benefits? Also, did you use the Robots in the formation or standalone?
Wilson wrote:
ultimentra wrote: Out of curiosity, why don't more guys go for the Warden or the Dakkaknight for their WarConvo?
Warden is an absolute beast. I really enjoy it, especially with over the head missiles with canticles. Not tried the dakkaknight but that's because I can't fit it into a list with pods.
What Wilson said. DakkaKnight is expensive. Warden is awesome.
Interestingly, your formation is very close to the Convocation formation (missing a few units) - would you consider just bumping it up to the Convocation for the benefits? Also, did you use the Robots in the formation or standalone?
I absolutely would consider moving to War Convocation, I just don't have any Dragoons or Onager Dunecrawler models. I'm going to eventually get them, and run convocation even though I'd be 100 points down from 1850 with what I have (assuming I just get a single Dragoon and a single Onager), the free wargear + Max Canticles on everything is just too good.
I used the robots as standalone (only have a single unit, and more wouldn't fit in 1850), and they were very good. I misplayed them by letting them get too close to the Soulgrinder, but even without the deathstar + IWND, I really like their versatility and durability.
Interestingly, your formation is very close to the Convocation formation (missing a few units) - would you consider just bumping it up to the Convocation for the benefits? Also, did you use the Robots in the formation or standalone?
I absolutely would consider moving to War Convocation, I just don't have any Dragoons or Onager Dunecrawler models. I'm going to eventually get them, and run convocation even though I'd be 100 points down from 1850 with what I have (assuming I just get a single Dragoon and a single Onager), the free wargear + Max Canticles on everything is just too good.
I used the robots as standalone (only have a single unit, and more wouldn't fit in 1850), and they were very good. I misplayed them by letting them get too close to the Soulgrinder, but even without the deathstar + IWND, I really like their versatility and durability.
Awesome!
We see the robots usually in that formation - how did they do in terms of survivability versus the Soulgrinder?
Gitsplitta wrote: Anyone have any suggestions on how to properly outfit an alpha in a 5-man ranger squad w/ two arquebus? At the moment they're my only troops, but eventually they'll just become my backfield objective sitters in a larger AdMech force.
Interestingly, your formation is very close to the Convocation formation (missing a few units) - would you consider just bumping it up to the Convocation for the benefits? Also, did you use the Robots in the formation or standalone?
I absolutely would consider moving to War Convocation, I just don't have any Dragoons or Onager Dunecrawler models. I'm going to eventually get them, and run convocation even though I'd be 100 points down from 1850 with what I have (assuming I just get a single Dragoon and a single Onager), the free wargear + Max Canticles on everything is just too good.
I used the robots as standalone (only have a single unit, and more wouldn't fit in 1850), and they were very good. I misplayed them by letting them get too close to the Soulgrinder, but even without the deathstar + IWND, I really like their versatility and durability.
Awesome!
We see the robots usually in that formation - how did they do in terms of survivability versus the Soulgrinder?
Well, I did get very lucky and a smash blew up the Grinder in the first round of combat, even before my Datasmith could use any haywire attacks/Powerfist, so I only took a single wound on the Robots (both going at I3). My robots ended up with 2 wounds left each (another took a wound from incidental meltagun shots).
In a previous game where I played Mechanicus allied to Eldar versus a SM demi-company w/ 1st Company vets, both robots eventually died after doing a whole lot of damage and tanking most of the SM heavy weapons fire.
So I have noticed that a huge number of people are playing the canticles for the cult mech incorrectly (~80% of the batreps I have seen and everyone I have talked to). People keep loading their destroyers and war convocation into drop pods and then claiming the top tier canticles despite having only 5-6 units on the battlefield. This is making the drop pod war convocation way better than it should be and making the pure cult mech and war convocation look meaningless.
CANTICLES OF THE OMNISSIAH At the start of each of your turns, you can choose one Canticle of the Omnissiah from the list below. The effects of each Canticle last until the start of your next turn. Unless otherwise stated, each Canticle can only be used once during the game.
Furthermore, the strength of each Canticle will vary according to the number of units performing it. At the start of your turn, add up the number of friendly units on the battlefield that have the Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule and apply the appropriate level of effect. Do not include units that are currently Falling Back in this total. Once a Canticle has been activated it remains at that level of effect until the beginning of your next turn, even if the number of units performing it changes during that turn.
Note the bolded section which specifically and explicitly states this. Also note that drop pods require you to start in reserves and while you could argue that you can roll reserves at the "start of the turn" the act of moving them on directly transitions into being in the movement phase thus violating the rules of canticles if you do so before calculating the number of units.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
BTW my preferred war convocation army list as of now;
Spoiler:
So my alternative take is to add a void shield relay as my fortification in the war convocation. This adds 3 additional units to my canticles in the form of shield gens, toughens my army drastically the turn before I can use canticles, and blunts any alpha strike on my units. I can also afford to place my destroyers much further forward and out in the open than any sane player would as my shield gens can be placed to cover them. Even units of vanguard and rangers are tough when they have 9 shields to crack to get to them. Even with the scout move it is tough to get completely out of range of the shield gens before I can use the shrouded+stealth canticle after which the army become very tough to damage until I can open up with the reroll to hit and + BS abilities.
Also I would like to note that the Arkhan's Divinator + The Scryerskull Perspicatus can be very useful at the beginning of the game. The void shields give me enough time to ID a few Obj and hopefully get some good ones (skyfire grav is awesome against flyrants).
BTW does anyone know what happens when you shoot void shields which would have stealth and shrouded? I have been ignoring the rules interaction but I am not sure if it doesn't count or you get 4+ cover saves.
Shielded War Convocation (1850pts) Skitarii Battle Maniple *Onager Dunecrawler: Cognis heavy stubber, Cognis manipulator, Icarus Array - Twin autocannon, Gatling rockets, Daedalus, Mindscanner probe, Smoke launchers *Sicarian Infiltrators: Flechette Blasters and Taser Goads, 4x Sicarian Infiltrator + Infiltrator Princeps w/ Conversion field, Digital weapons, The Skull of Elder Nikola *Sicarian Ruststalkers: 4x Sicarian Ruststalker w/ Transonic razor, Chordclaw, and Mindscrambler Grenades + Ruststalker Princeps w/ Conversion field, Digital weapons, Prehensile Dataspike, The Omniscient Mask *Skitarii Rangers: 2x Arc rifle, Omnispex, 4x Skitarii Ranger + Ranger Alpha w/ Arc maul, Arc pistol, Arkhan's Divinator *Skitarii Vanguard: Omnispex, 3x Plasma caliver, 9x Skitarii Vanguard + Vanguard Alpha w/ Conversion field, Digital weapons, Pater Radium, Radium carbine, Taser goad *Sydonian Dragoons: 2x Sydonian Dragoon Phosphor serpenta, Taser lance
So I have noticed that a huge number of people are playing the canticles for the cult mech incorrectly (~80% of the batreps I have seen and everyone I have talked to). People keep loading their destroyers and war convocation into drop pods and then claiming the top tier canticles despite having only 5-6 units on the battlefield. This is making the drop pod war convocation way better than it should be and making the pure cult mech and war convocation look meaningless.
CANTICLES OF THE OMNISSIAH
At the start of each of your turns, you can choose one Canticle of the Omnissiah from the list below. The effects of each Canticle last until the start of your next turn. Unless otherwise stated, each Canticle can only be used once during the game.
Furthermore, the strength of each Canticle will vary according to the number of units performing it. At the start of your turn, add up the number of friendly units on the battlefield that have the Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule and apply the appropriate level of effect. Do not include units that are currently Falling Back in this total. Once a Canticle has been activated it remains at that level of effect until the beginning of your next turn, even if the number of units performing it changes during that turn.
Note the bolded section which specifically and explicitly states this. Also note that drop pods require you to start in reserves and while you could argue that you can roll reserves at the "start of the turn" the act of moving them on directly transitions into being in the movement phase thus violating the rules of canticles if you do so before calculating the number of units.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
BTW my preferred war convocation army list as of now;
[spoiler]So my alternative take is to add a void shield relay as my fortification in the war convocation. This adds 3 additional units to my canticles in the form of shield gens, toughens my army drastically the turn before I can use canticles, and blunts any alpha strike on my units. I can also afford to place my destroyers much further forward and out in the open than any sane player would as my shield gens can be placed to cover them. Even units of vanguard and rangers are tough when they have 9 shields to crack to get to them. Even with the scout move it is tough to get completely out of range of the shield gens before I can use the shrouded+stealth canticle after which the army become very tough to damage until I can open up with the reroll to hit and + BS abilities.
Also I would like to note that the Arkhan's Divinator + The Scryerskull Perspicatus can be very useful at the beginning of the game. The void shields give me enough time to ID a few Obj and hopefully get some good ones (skyfire grav is awesome against flyrants).
BTW does anyone know what happens when you shoot void shields which would have stealth and shrouded? I have been ignoring the rules interaction but I am not sure if it doesn't count or you get 4+ cover saves.
Shielded War Convocation (1850pts)
Skitarii Battle Maniple *Onager Dunecrawler: Cognis heavy stubber, Cognis manipulator, Icarus Array - Twin autocannon, Gatling rockets, Daedalus, Mindscanner probe, Smoke launchers
*Sicarian Infiltrators: Flechette Blasters and Taser Goads, 4x Sicarian Infiltrator + Infiltrator Princeps w/ Conversion field, Digital weapons, The Skull of Elder Nikola
*Sicarian Ruststalkers: 4x Sicarian Ruststalker w/ Transonic razor, Chordclaw, and Mindscrambler Grenades + Ruststalker Princeps w/ Conversion field, Digital weapons, Prehensile Dataspike, The Omniscient Mask
*Skitarii Rangers: 2x Arc rifle, Omnispex, 4x Skitarii Ranger + Ranger Alpha w/ Arc maul, Arc pistol, Arkhan's Divinator
*Skitarii Vanguard: Omnispex, 3x Plasma caliver, 9x Skitarii Vanguard + Vanguard Alpha w/ Conversion field, Digital weapons, Pater Radium, Radium carbine, Taser goad
*Sydonian Dragoons: 2x Sydonian Dragoon Phosphor serpenta, Taser lance
You are indeed correct. Most people have been forgetting about it - it's the reason I don't run drop-pod convocation right now, although I've been considering ways to do it. With the base Convocation alone, you have 10 units. If you stick 3 in pods (Vanguards, 2 Kataphrons) for a 2-pod-on-turn-1-drop (4 pods gets you the same thing too), you're down to 7 units on the table starting and need 1 more unit only to get back to 8 for max bonuses. I believe a single fortification like a Plasma Obliterator (which is pretty big), Firestorm Redoubt, or Aquila Strongpoint is good enough. 350 points seems to be a lot to be sinking into fortifications, particularly since you have wasted points in the form of Promethium Relay Pipes.
Either one of those three aforementioned buildings (with void shields, and with Barricade/Wall section upgrades staggered forward) I mentioned allows you to stick your rangers in them to bolster your ranged firepower, and serves as an LOS blocker for your Dragoons and Dunecrawler. Of course, it doesn't do much for survivability of your Infiltrators and your Ruststalkers.. but that's what you have table LOS blocking terrain for, right? Otherwise, move your Sicarians behind the Barricade/Wall sections for 4+ cover, slap Canticles for 2+ cover.
But that's just my two cents. I typically fill my spare points with more dakka in any game I play.
Edit:
With regards to cover saves and Void Shields, I'd say that you get the stealth/shrouded roll because a void shield essentially treats incoming weapon fire as against an AV12 vehicle with the chance to regenerate the shield on a 5+. It's not a save anywhere.
Gitsplitta wrote: Anyone have any suggestions on how to properly outfit an alpha in a 5-man ranger squad w/ two arquebus? At the moment they're my only troops, but eventually they'll just become my backfield objective sitters in a larger AdMech force.
Probably nothing at all.
I wouldnt even give them aquebuses. Points would be better spent on more Rangers
Enigwolf wrote:You are indeed correct. Most people have been forgetting about it - it's the reason I don't run drop-pod convocation right now, although I've been considering ways to do it. With the base Convocation alone, you have 10 units. If you stick 3 in pods (Vanguards, 2 Kataphrons) for a 2-pod-on-turn-1-drop (4 pods gets you the same thing too), you're down to 7 units on the table starting and need 1 more unit only to get back to 8 for max bonuses. I believe a single fortification like a Plasma Obliterator (which is pretty big), Firestorm Redoubt, or Aquila Strongpoint is good enough. 350 points seems to be a lot to be sinking into fortifications, particularly since you have wasted points in the form of Promethium Relay Pipes.
I look at it like this. I deploy them as far forward and "centrally" as possible. This usually means that my shooty units will spend nearly all game under the void shields. The Ruststalkers and Dragoons will only spend turn 1 under them and the infiltrators will probably infiltrate out of LoS (hopefully) away from them.
In a normal war convocation you will spend the first turn trying to move into range to shoot and if you don't go first you will usually loose ~300 pts to most shooting lists which your opponent will mostly choose (likely vanguard, destroyers, and if they are smart dragoons if you deployed them well). Alternatively against my list your average shooting army will struggle to even strip my void shields. Even the vaunted scatbike spam will loose ~70% of their shooting to the void shields even if they go first (btw if shrouded+stealth is up on the shields then they take down 7 shields for 120 shots ). Skyhammer barely manages to take down the shields and then gets to deal with invulnerable saves and cover saves. IMO war convocation's best units are soft enough that gaining 1-2 turns shielded + 1-2 turns stealth+shrouded will save more than 350 pts against even mediocre lists. Against other extreme alpha strike armies this is more likely to save me 600 pts of models just on the alpha strike. Also IMO the range of the units actually makes the limitations of forward deployed void shields not a huge concern. Most of the units can sprint out from the shields and threaten the other side of the board. Grav destroyers can actually spend most of the game shooting from inside the shields. The void shield gens also provide 3 units to your canticle count as they are 3 seperate units not a unit of 3.
Plasma Oblit is actually really good in this formation. I wouldn't want the Aquila Strongpoint mostly because the pts cost is just too high for my usual pts level.
Enigwolf wrote:Either one of those three aforementioned buildings (with void shields, and with Barricade/Wall section upgrades staggered forward) I mentioned allows you to stick your rangers in them to bolster your ranged firepower, and serves as an LOS blocker for your Dragoons and Dunecrawler. Of course, it doesn't do much for survivability of your Infiltrators and your Ruststalkers.. but that's what you have table LOS blocking terrain for, right? Otherwise, move your Sicarians behind the Barricade/Wall sections for 4+ cover, slap Canticles for 2+ cover.
But that's just my two cents. I typically fill my spare points with more dakka in any game I play.
Dakka can also work. I just have become a proponent of planning to take a skyhammer, drop skitarii, or scatbike spam alpha strike in any TAC list. Thus every TAC list I make either has enough turn 1 durability to take the alpha strike on the chin, extreme MSU to minimize damage (ie no unit above 70 pts), seizes on a rerollable 5+, or fights from reserves with a 2+ rerollable roll (or some combination of). I actually wrote a thread on handling extreme alpha strikes.
Enigwolf wrote:With regards to cover saves and Void Shields, I'd say that you get the stealth/shrouded roll because a void shield essentially treats incoming weapon fire as against an AV12 vehicle with the chance to regenerate the shield on a 5+. It's not a save anywhere.
I would think so and it sure makes my list a lot better...so I may be biased.
AV12 with 9 HP and 4+ cover save sure makes the army tough to hurt.
BTW one way to get 8 units with a drop pod war convocation is to add a vengeance weapon battery and to take a TAC squad and put the dominus in it. That would give the list 8 units. Still you definitely have to sacrifice something to get the vaunted top tier canticles turn 1. The funny part is that most of the lists I have seen could have their top tier canticles removed from killing a single unit as they put the dominus in with a canticle unit thus only having 8 units turn 2-3 until the pod comes in. Even then it is not that hard to kill a min model ranger, ruststalkers, and infiltrator units. Especially when they spent 1-2 turns without the vaunted stealth+shrouded as they should have.
Played a little 500 pt game vs. my son's Necrons last night. Got to see the "glass hammer" in action. Infiltrators charged and wiped a 5-man squad of immortals with cryptek, then lost 4 of 5 members on the next shooting phase to a single S6 blast.
Gitsplitta wrote: Played a little 500 pt game vs. my son's Necrons last night. Got to see the "glass hammer" in action. Infiltrators charged and wiped a 5-man squad of immortals with cryptek, then lost 4 of 5 members on the next shooting phase to a single S6 blast.
Wow.
I literally only have one response: lol.
Sounds like my AdMech are going to very much play like my Elysians then...
Didn't help that I forgot about my follow-up move... so they were all bunched together when the blast hit. I think it's going to be very important (and difficult) to remember all of the rules when playing this army. You'll need all the edge you can get.
Gitsplitta wrote: Didn't help that I forgot about my follow-up move... so they were all bunched together when the blast hit. I think it's going to be very important (and difficult) to remember all of the rules when playing this army. You'll need all the edge you can get.
I found the Battlescribe summary .pdf useful for printing out when I was learning new armies. I typically glance at it before I do anything with a unit just to make sure I don't miss anything.
Fast Attack 1: Sydonian Dragoon(45), 4 additional Sydonian Dragoons(180) [225]
Fast Attack 2: Sydonian Dragoon(45), 4 additional Sydonian Dragoons(180) [225]
total [565]
Alliance level : battle brothers
Army total[1850]
War convocation and ad mech were not released in time. I love the dragoons and had to them as my ally choice. Looking forward to the event and i'll be writing some reports + photos !
ansacs wrote: So I have noticed that a huge number of people are playing the canticles for the cult mech incorrectly (~80% of the batreps I have seen and everyone I have talked to). People keep loading their destroyers and war convocation into drop pods and then claiming the top tier canticles despite having only 5-6 units on the battlefield. This is making the drop pod war convocation way better than it should be and making the pure cult mech and war convocation look meaningless.
CANTICLES OF THE OMNISSIAH
At the start of each of your turns, you can choose one Canticle of the Omnissiah from the list below. The effects of each Canticle last until the start of your next turn. Unless otherwise stated, each Canticle can only be used once during the game.
Furthermore, the strength of each Canticle will vary according to the number of units performing it. At the start of your turn, add up the number of friendly units on the battlefield that have the Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule and apply the appropriate level of effect. Do not include units that are currently Falling Back in this total. Once a Canticle has been activated it remains at that level of effect until the beginning of your next turn, even if the number of units performing it changes during that turn.
Note the bolded section which specifically and explicitly states this. Also note that drop pods require you to start in reserves and while you could argue that you can roll reserves at the "start of the turn" the act of moving them on directly transitions into being in the movement phase thus violating the rules of canticles if you do so before calculating the number of units.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
BTW my preferred war convocation army list as of now;
Spoiler:
So my alternative take is to add a void shield relay as my fortification in the war convocation. This adds 3 additional units to my canticles in the form of shield gens, toughens my army drastically the turn before I can use canticles, and blunts any alpha strike on my units. I can also afford to place my destroyers much further forward and out in the open than any sane player would as my shield gens can be placed to cover them. Even units of vanguard and rangers are tough when they have 9 shields to crack to get to them. Even with the scout move it is tough to get completely out of range of the shield gens before I can use the shrouded+stealth canticle after which the army become very tough to damage until I can open up with the reroll to hit and + BS abilities.
Also I would like to note that the Arkhan's Divinator + The Scryerskull Perspicatus can be very useful at the beginning of the game. The void shields give me enough time to ID a few Obj and hopefully get some good ones (skyfire grav is awesome against flyrants).
BTW does anyone know what happens when you shoot void shields which would have stealth and shrouded? I have been ignoring the rules interaction but I am not sure if it doesn't count or you get 4+ cover saves.
Shielded War Convocation (1850pts)
Skitarii Battle Maniple *Onager Dunecrawler: Cognis heavy stubber, Cognis manipulator, Icarus Array - Twin autocannon, Gatling rockets, Daedalus, Mindscanner probe, Smoke launchers
*Sicarian Infiltrators: Flechette Blasters and Taser Goads, 4x Sicarian Infiltrator + Infiltrator Princeps w/ Conversion field, Digital weapons, The Skull of Elder Nikola
*Sicarian Ruststalkers: 4x Sicarian Ruststalker w/ Transonic razor, Chordclaw, and Mindscrambler Grenades + Ruststalker Princeps w/ Conversion field, Digital weapons, Prehensile Dataspike, The Omniscient Mask
*Skitarii Rangers: 2x Arc rifle, Omnispex, 4x Skitarii Ranger + Ranger Alpha w/ Arc maul, Arc pistol, Arkhan's Divinator
*Skitarii Vanguard: Omnispex, 3x Plasma caliver, 9x Skitarii Vanguard + Vanguard Alpha w/ Conversion field, Digital weapons, Pater Radium, Radium carbine, Taser goad
*Sydonian Dragoons: 2x Sydonian Dragoon Phosphor serpenta, Taser lance
I apologize for the extremely ignorant, no doubt, question. But I thought that the convocation required two troops choices for the Mechanicus part, and the only troops choices they have are elctropriests?
If you don't use drop pod for your skitarii, would you still put special weapons on your vanguard ? And would they still be better than the rangers ?
I understand why they are better in drop pod, but without, I'm afread they die before shooting.
If you're taking the Convocation, yes, because the guns are free, and you have to take rangers and vanguard.
If you're not running the convocation and straight skitarii, debatable, one of the things about them is that they're slow and fairly short ranged. They would probably die before they got in range even with scout moves
Smashed a draigo cent star game 1, a dark eldar boat spam game 2, lost to an IG blob+cypher game 3 and a WWP wraithdrop game 4 then beat a IG blob + sisters game 5.
I only lost game 4 by a few points and the sneaky trick that list pulled is why I lost - poor planning on my part. Game 4 I just did not have enough buble wrap to stop the WWP drop with multiple WG units
godardc wrote: If you don't use drop pod for your skitarii, would you still put special weapons on your vanguard ? And would they still be better than the rangers ?
I understand why they are better in drop pod, but without, I'm afread they die before shooting.
yes I would put special weapons on my Vanguard, but I wouldnt put plasma on them, just arc rifles.
yes I would still take mostly Vanguard and very few rangers. They still get scout, are still more deadly, and are still 20% cheaper than rangers.
godardc wrote: If you don't use drop pod for your skitarii, would you still put special weapons on your vanguard ? And would they still be better than the rangers ?
I understand why they are better in drop pod, but without, I'm afread they die before shooting.
yes I would put special weapons on my Vanguard, but I wouldnt put plasma on them, just arc rifles.
yes I would still take mostly Vanguard and very few rangers. They still get scout, are still more deadly, and are still 20% cheaper than rangers.
The 12" Scout move seriously helps Vanguards. They're a lot faster than you think.
Has anything been established as far as what the most effective weapons for the Dominus are? I'm personally thinking Macrostubber and the AP3 blast weapon. Volkite just seems like it isn't really going to kill anything besides GEQ.
Ran the War Convocation at a 1850 tournament last weekend. Had only one game with admech before the tournament.
Went 2-1, tabling two and a narrow loss to the third opponent.
Mainly because of a lack of mobility.
That being said, the war convocation firepower is incredible. I took out a necron army with Destroyer cult and 2x6 wraiths as well as a double WK eldar with jetbikes.
I am reworking my list to try and address my mobility issue.
Deshkar wrote: Ran the War Convocation at a 1850 tournament last weekend. Had only one game with admech before the tournament.
Went 2-1, tabling two and a narrow loss to the third opponent.
Mainly because of a lack of mobility.
That being said, the war convocation firepower is incredible. I took out a necron army with Destroyer cult and 2x6 wraiths as well as a double WK eldar with jetbikes.
I am reworking my list to try and address my mobility issue.
Your tournament allowed two WK/LOWs in a game?
I'm just happy you won against someone with no honor.
Deshkar wrote: Ran the War Convocation at a 1850 tournament last weekend. Had only one game with admech before the tournament.
Went 2-1, tabling two and a narrow loss to the third opponent.
Mainly because of a lack of mobility.
That being said, the war convocation firepower is incredible. I took out a necron army with Destroyer cult and 2x6 wraiths as well as a double WK eldar with jetbikes.
I am reworking my list to try and address my mobility issue.
Did you run your Skitarii units or some of the Kataphrons in pods? I hear that really makes the list.
Yeah. Grav Destroyers and Vanguard's Rad took the WK out easily even despite 3++ cover.
No. I do not like the pods, as I could lose out on canticles numbers if I go 2nd. I just played extremely aggressive with my deployment and movement.
Points allowance are very tight for me to make changes, but gonna try. Mobility is a bigger issue but I don't think pods are the answer, atleast not for my meta.
Deshkar wrote: Yeah. Grav Destroyers and Vanguard's Rad took the WK out easily even despite 3++ cover.
No. I do not like the pods, as I could lose out on canticles numbers if I go 2nd. I just played extremely aggressive with my deployment and movement.
Points allowance are very tight for me to make changes, but gonna try. Mobility is a bigger issue but I don't think pods are the answer, atleast not for my meta.
Considering if you have to go second turn, you probably have to hide your delicate units anyways.
Which probably means they are in a bad position and need to rely on their lack of mobility the rest of the game.
Atleast with drop pods they are safer turn 1/2 and will get to their turn 1 ready to go or turn 2 safe. Even if that means one level lower on canticles it isn't a bad trade off.
Yea with Shrouded as opposed to Stealth+Shrouded anything in a 4+ cover will get a 2+ anyways. Only thing it will effect is stuff in forests or other 5+ covers, getting a 3+ as opposed to a 2+.
I refuse to use drop pods with the Mechanicus/Skitarii army that I am building. It is wrong and bad.
How do Proper and Right Mechanicus/Skitarii foot infantry hold up with the Canticles giving them (all of them, in the Convocation) a good cover save for a turn? Or an invuln save, in that formation the watchamaccalit.
Alcibiades wrote: I refuse to use drop pods with the Mechanicus/Skitarii army that I am building. It is wrong and bad.
How do Proper and Right Mechanicus/Skitarii foot infantry hold up with the Canticles giving them (all of them, in the Convocation) a good cover save for a turn? Or an invuln save, in that formation the watchamaccalit.
It does fine, it is just that your opponent can react to your engagement distances is the problem.
Alcibiades wrote: I refuse to use drop pods with the Mechanicus/Skitarii army that I am building. It is wrong and bad.
How do Proper and Right Mechanicus/Skitarii foot infantry hold up with the Canticles giving them (all of them, in the Convocation) a good cover save for a turn? Or an invuln save, in that formation the watchamaccalit.
It does fine, it is just that your opponent can react to your engagement distances is the problem.
Ah, so the issue is that the opponent can stay out of range of their 18" guns?
my opinion is that if i put two units in drop pods, it just makes it easier for my opponent to decide who to kill.
and all admech are pretty much fragile. I usually rather force decisions.
Oh instead of using pods, i ran the SM Librarius Conclave. Perfect Timing+Prescience gave my Kataphrons insane firepower to delete units, while having Invisibility allowed my melee units to tie up opposing deathstars.
Deshkar wrote: my opinion is that if i put two units in drop pods, it just makes it easier for my opponent to decide who to kill.
and all admech are pretty much fragile. I usually rather force decisions.
Oh instead of using pods, i ran the SM Librarius Conclave. Perfect Timing+Prescience gave my Kataphrons insane firepower to delete units, while having Invisibility allowed my melee units to tie up opposing deathstars.
This is why you take three drop pods. Get 2 units dropping turn 1.
Deshkar wrote: my opinion is that if i put two units in drop pods, it just makes it easier for my opponent to decide who to kill.
and all admech are pretty much fragile. I usually rather force decisions.
Oh instead of using pods, i ran the SM Librarius Conclave. Perfect Timing+Prescience gave my Kataphrons insane firepower to delete units, while having Invisibility allowed my melee units to tie up opposing deathstars.
This is why you take three drop pods. Get 2 units dropping turn 1.
Except that Canticles counts your units before your Drop Pods drop. So you're already down 2 units for the purposes of calculating your unit count for Canticles.
Deshkar wrote: my opinion is that if i put two units in drop pods, it just makes it easier for my opponent to decide who to kill.
and all admech are pretty much fragile. I usually rather force decisions.
Oh instead of using pods, i ran the SM Librarius Conclave. Perfect Timing+Prescience gave my Kataphrons insane firepower to delete units, while having Invisibility allowed my melee units to tie up opposing deathstars.
This is why you take three drop pods. Get 2 units dropping turn 1.
Except that Canticles counts your units before your Drop Pods drop. So you're already down 2 units for the purposes of calculating your unit count for Canticles.
So? In most cases the level 2 power is just as good as the level 3 one.
Deshkar wrote: my opinion is that if i put two units in drop pods, it just makes it easier for my opponent to decide who to kill.
and all admech are pretty much fragile. I usually rather force decisions.
Oh instead of using pods, i ran the SM Librarius Conclave. Perfect Timing+Prescience gave my Kataphrons insane firepower to delete units, while having Invisibility allowed my melee units to tie up opposing deathstars.
This is why you take three drop pods. Get 2 units dropping turn 1.
Except that Canticles counts your units before your Drop Pods drop. So you're already down 2 units for the purposes of calculating your unit count for Canticles.
So? In most cases the level 2 power is just as good as the level 3 one.
Yeah, if you don't need the level 3 power, then fair, level 2 does quite as well. But it all depends on your local meta, too. My local meta had very little area terrain granting cover, or terrain for that matter. So having level 3 from the get-go is important. But if you have 4+/5+ cover all around aplenty, then your level 2 would be sufficient.
Deshkar wrote: my opinion is that if i put two units in drop pods, it just makes it easier for my opponent to decide who to kill.
and all admech are pretty much fragile. I usually rather force decisions.
Oh instead of using pods, i ran the SM Librarius Conclave. Perfect Timing+Prescience gave my Kataphrons insane firepower to delete units, while having Invisibility allowed my melee units to tie up opposing deathstars.
This is why you take three drop pods. Get 2 units dropping turn 1.
Not good for me. I expect to face wraithstars, Triple Knights, 1-2 wraithknight, twc spam, bike stars, Khorne MC/hounds who all will welcome me coming closer to them. Meta differences perhaps.
There's a lot of terrain in my gaming area, but as a I prefer aggressive deployment, I prefer the full Shroudspalm buff. 2++ is awesome.
buddha wrote: Some ad mech thoughts I'd love advice on.
- even including allies, where do players find their dominus goes best with? He's so generalist I feel like he is wasted wherever I put him.
- has anyone thought about putting destroyers or breachers in allied rhinos for alpha strike protection and mobility?
Naked 10man Vanguard squad, as far as a purist AdMech army. Leaves the anti-infantry duty to the anti-infantry folks. Keep a Knight nearby so he can repair if necessary.
I feel that putting the dominus w/ autocadeus (IWND relic) with almost any multi wound Admech unit is a guaranteed way to have him not only use him to his fullest but really ensure that unit sticks around to make it points back. Granted there are some better choices than others but I feel he shines best in a cohort cybernetica.
As far as kataphrons in transports go, I had considered it. Though as I only have Admech and IG I'd be stuck with Chimeras. Until IG get a new codex with Fast attack chimeras instead just dedicated transport I don't see that idea working. I'd say the Idea has potential, if drop pods work i don't see why rhinos wouldn't as long as your aware that they WILL get esploded.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Mainly cause Rhinos cant transport bulky/very bulky models as far as I'm aware.
but chimeras can right.....
Yep.
Even better, Inquisition Chimeras are 5ed style. So cheaper and have 5 fire points. Perfect for Destoyers or Skitarii. And Inquistors make pretty cool proxies for ad mech priests and it would be easy to turn the retinues into something Admech flavored. So much potential both in game and on display, much more so than Fleshtearers imo.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Does it though? Drop pods and canticles specify "At the begining of your turn"
Are they concurrent or do you get to choose which one goes first since they both happen at the same time?
There was a YMDC either here or on another forum... Basically you choose the Drop Pods for DPA at the beginning of your turn, you are correct. But the wording for DPA states "Units making a drop pod assault arrive on the controlling players first turn". The key word here is "on", not "at the beginning", which implies they follow standard Deep Strike rules. That said, in the past, GW had FAQ'd in 6th that Deep Strike and Blessings happen simultaneously, so the controlling player chooses, not sure how much that applies now.
SO I was in a tournament last weekend and got to run the sicarian killclade.
Some Notes:
- the 12" bubble from the infiltrators is AWESOME, so amazingly useful especially for severely hampering drop pod armies.
- the run and charge for 1 turn is incredible. The highest mobility of any assault unit I have seen, I had one crazy long 30" charge one game.
Downsides:
-the formation is very expensive and limits what else you can take
-it is a TRAVESTY that all the sicarians are t3. I just had no answer to most of the current competitive meta when there wasn't tons of cover on the board. Scat bikes are so soul crushing.
Meanwhile, my main opponent seems to be calling AdMech as a faction OP every other turn, and apparently AdMech are better than Eldar.
Hilariously, my Onager Dunecrawler has done all of the following in 4 games.
•Killed a full-health Daemon Prince in close combat.
•Killed a Bloodthirster with a heavy stubber.
•Took 7 hull points off a Lord Of Skulls with two shots.
•Killed 5 Chaos Terminators in shooting and 1 in close combat.
TuddFudders wrote:So how is your store/opponents reacting to AM armies yall are fielding?
By and large, my Skitarii have been getting comments of "surprisingly not-OP". I had an Eldar player who was kitted out for a War Convocation thinking it was all stuff that was in the main Codex, so had to drop some truth on him.
Wilson wrote:
TuddFudders wrote: So how is your store/opponents reacting to AM armies yall are fielding?
Very negatively to the war convocation. It seems people hate free wargear, 2+ cover saves and bs7 troops with plasma!
gameandwatch wrote: Actually, by in large ad mech has been regarded as decent, but not nearly overpowered.
Playing as them I would not call them mediocre, but a shoe in easy win they are not.
I wish I could field a crap-ton of dragoons, but man, are they too expensive to get in bulk. Really wish they were a 3 per box kit, for like, 90.
Tell me about it I like dragoons as well, but every time I think about expanding my force of them I decide against it due to just the price.
Speaking of them... I know that i cant be the only person who magnetized my model to switch between ballistarii an dragoon. What is everyone seeing run more often and does the ironstrider formation really seem lack luster or is that just me?
If the War Convocation list didn't have free wargear or give canticles to all units, it wouldn't be used. That is essentially what you have, a War convocation without the bonuses or the Knight. The Knight is what tanks/draws fire for the army and the Canticles for everyone is what really makes the list top tier, the free points is just the icing on top. If you can't get an Imperial knight, try to borrow one haha.
I severely doubt anyone in my FLGS trusts me enough to let me borrow a Knight, and I really don't like even touching other people's models. I should be coming by some money soon, however.
Well currently the 1500 point list Im running is
Chaos Lord on bike with lightening claw Power fist mark of slaanesh sigil of Corruption Daemonheart melta bombs
Chaos Sorceror Mastery Level 3 sigil of Corruption the bale star of Manon
5 noise marines with a blast master
5 noise marines with a blast master
Rhino
6 chosen with 5 plasma guns Combi plasma
Rhino
5 chaos bikes mark of slaanesh Icon of excess 2 melta Guns Combi Melta melta bombs.
3 Obliterators
Defiler with power fist power scourge
The defiler il be honest I'm thinking of dropping it proved to me today why I actually stopped using it lol. The problems I'm having is aside from the chosen with their plasma and the melta Guns as well as the obliterators I have very little answer to 2+ saves and vehicles at range also outside of my biker unit my units get eaten up quite quickly due to grav seeming to be popular here.
I recommend allying in Grav Kataphrons, Arc Vanguard for AV, and Neutronagers. They would provide some countering to 2+ saves and heavy vehicles.
Could I have a source on the Black Star and Daemonheart? I do not believe they are in the core dex.
Verviedi wrote: I recommend allying in Grav Kataphrons, Arc Vanguard for AV, and Neutronagers. They would provide some countering to 2+ saves and heavy vehicles.
Could I have a source on the Black Star and Daemonheart? I do not believe they are in the core dex.
With jetbike hoards, space marine grav bikes in high volumes and tricky ravenwing re rollables, the Acheron is becoming more and more appealing.
I've mostly just ran the convocation, because i love the variation but due to the cerastus rule I cannot fit an Acheron in.
for the UKGT (1500 pts), I'm considering something like this;
Cult mech
Dominus - conversion shield
Kataphrons- grav
Kataphrons - haywire
Skitarii maniple
10 Vanguard - plasma
5 Vanguard - haywire
Dune crawler - Icarus array
Blood Angels
librarian level 2 , auspex
Scouts
3 drop pods
Acheron
Really I'm dropping army wide canticles, 2 units of sicarians and a unit of dragoons for 3 drop pods, a libby and ofcourse the Acheron.
Interested to see how that trades off!
Yes of course, but you have to take another knight as well as per the cerastus rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wodyjoe wrote: Any suggestions on best relics per unit in the war convocation?
Pater radium - rustalkers
Infiltrators - phospheonix or phase taser
Vanguard - omniscient mask
Rangers - skull of elder Nikela( I put haywire guns on these)
Dominus - RAIMENT OF THE TECHNOMARTYR - goes with grav
Vanguard - Phosphenix because they are in drop pods in my list and can actually use it on something good.
Infiltrators - Pater radium or phase taser
Rustalkers - Omni Mask, they need to stay in the second round of combat to get their melee attacks to AP2
Rangers - Arkhans divinator to reroll the objective they are camping on to hope for skyfire nexus so the Transanic rifles are effective against flyers.
Dominus - Scryersgaze skull because you basically guarantee the vehicle you target with it a turn will die no matter what.
If I misspelled anything, it is because i'm to lazy to remember super ridiculous names that make no sense for the most part.
I actually agree with TuddFudders, Omnimask is a must take on the RustStalkers and the free wounds that ignore armor from the Pater Radium far outweigh the AP- instant death from the Phase Taser.
Still not sure about the Scyerskull for the Dominus, useful for the grav cannons and Neutronagers yes, but not for haywire.
Vanguard - Pater Radium (-1T + Toughness Test = yum)
Rangers - Skull of Elder Nikola (for those pesky vehicles that get in your back field, or if you advance late in the game)
Ruststalkers - Omniscient Mask (Zealot is just too good for them - not running and getting to reroll misses when you charge is great)
Infiltrators - Phosphoenix (you want to be in 6" to debuff enemies anyway, and lumigen is useful in a pinch)
Dominus - Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land (IWND on the Dominus and any unit it joins is great - have him follow around your vehicles and laugh at incoming fire, or join him with multiple wound models and help them survive)
Scyerskull for the Dominus is the most useful from my games atleast.
The IWND one is only going to get its use when playing with the Kastellans. Which is amazing in 1500 point or lower games where your not running a War Convocation and instead a Cybernatica Cohort.
Now the Cognis one is still extremely useful depending on the unit you put it on, even having Transanic Arq rifles with cognis on the rangers makes them decent Anti-air.
But I still feel Scyerskull for the Dominus is the best. I attach him to the Rangers, they reroll the backfield objective they camp hoping for Skyfire nexus thus not needing cognis mostly. The Scryerskull helps killing vehicles with the knight's weapons, trans arq rifles, and just generally makes the targeted vehicle most likely going to die. If that vehicle is a another Imperial knight then this is huge.
Though the real reason I attach the Dominus to a backyard unit which seems like a waste of points is that often most opponents will deep strike units behind the rangers to blow them away. In that case, the Dominus is positioned in a way he would be the closest if a unit deep strikes behind and he can eat all the shots on a 2+ invul with that one item. Gives you a turn to turnaround and deny him easy back field objectives.
So from playtest experience what are players working and not working with ad mech? For me I love kataphron destroyers and we're crushing to anything they looked at but melted out of cover. Breachers were wholey underwhelming as a unit of three is only 6 shots at BS 3, not a game changer. Other playtest thoughts?
I've have sub par performance out of both my destroyers and breaches. On the other hand my Kastelans have become well known at my flgs for being just stupid hard to budge
*I may have also gotten some lucky rolls on saves and reflected some devastating shots back at opponents*
The only army I've had trouble with is a demon force featuring horrors, fateweaver, some named great unclean one, double soul grinders, a chariot of some sort, and a nurgle DP. The list just steam rolled me.
Breachers didn't knock off a single hull point the soulgrinders. 2+ invuls kept me from putting wounds on almost anything with destroyers or kastelans. The horrors were stashed way in backfield behind cover and my infiltrators were flamed to death by them. Also the chariot and some summoned screamers wiped out my two vanguard squads before they could get a shot off.
Honest it feels like was just out played and I know I brought a sub optimal list, what with a firestorm redoubt and a void sheild generator, but I couldn't even put up a fight. Had I not conceded at the bottom of turn 3 I would have been tabled with only having killed a squad of meatshield nurglings.
Any advice on how to better handle this type of list or demons in general with admech would be welcome as I'm very unfamiliar with demons.
1. Skitarii NEED a more effective way of moving up. I was losing squads before they could get into Arc Rifle range, let alone Radium Carbine range.
2. It is pathetic that Sicarians are T3. A single Psycannon Purgation Squad and a Dreadknight wiped out two squads in cover in one turn.
3. Intelligent use of cover is necessary for Ad Mech. T3 4+ is far too fragile to be out in the open.
4. Tech-Priest Dominus with Cognis in front of a Gravaphron squad is amazing. He ate the entire enemy army's shotting for two turns without taking a wound, but eventually died horribly on turn 3.
Most people are putting their worthwhile Skitarii units in pods. If you know your opponent will be coming to you, sticking to cover and using Shroudpsalm on them from your war convocation bonus is made easier, but if the majority of their force is going to sit back then pods are easiest answer.
Pods are just too cheap and safe, the admech need something akin to a Rhino or Chimera. If you want to wait until the next AM dex we'll probably get FA chimeras for your Skitarii. I plan on making at least a couple in Mechanicus colors just for that purpose when the day comes.
Chimeras do seem excellent for transports.
I'm not running Convocation due to having no money for a knight, so I'm basically screwed on Canticles. (And my opponent refuses to play against my AdMech if I roll a 6 on my Dominus' warlord traits)
I'm basically running on extreme self-nerfing due to many of my opponents believing AdMech is Eldar-tier broken.
I'm glad that I'm not the only one hoping for FA Chimeras in the next IG codex so I can put my metal men in metal bawkses. I could just use rhinos but, at the point why not just use pods. That I would have to buy then while I already have 8 chimeras
In the meantime, what are thoughts on vanguard in valkyries or vendettas. Potentially with IG preist or psykers? I'm planning to use a list like this soon for a 1500 unbound tourny so wanted some feed back.
Was thinking of using as a base for the list.
x2 vendetta w/ x5 Vanguard w/primaris or preist
1 valkyrie w/ x10 vanguard w/primaris AND preist
Verviedi wrote: Chimeras do seem excellent for transports.
I'm not running Convocation due to having no money for a knight, so I'm basically screwed on Canticles. (And my opponent refuses to play against my AdMech if I roll a 6 on my Dominus' warlord traits)
I'm basically running on extreme self-nerfing due to many of my opponents believing AdMech is Eldar-tier broken.
Why refuse if you get a 6? It's not that good! Strategic warlord traits are a million times better
Verviedi wrote: Chimeras do seem excellent for transports.
I'm not running Convocation due to having no money for a knight, so I'm basically screwed on Canticles. (And my opponent refuses to play against my AdMech if I roll a 6 on my Dominus' warlord traits)
I'm basically running on extreme self-nerfing due to many of my opponents believing AdMech is Eldar-tier broken.
The 6 really isn't that good.... It only affects the Dominoe's unit.
Either way your opponent are pansies then if they can't beat a glass cannon army.
Verviedi wrote: Chimeras do seem excellent for transports.
I'm not running Convocation due to having no money for a knight, so I'm basically screwed on Canticles. (And my opponent refuses to play against my AdMech if I roll a 6 on my Dominus' warlord traits)
I'm basically running on extreme self-nerfing due to many of my opponents believing AdMech is Eldar-tier broken.
Why refuse if you get a 6? It's not that good! Strategic warlord traits are a million times better
When you're running 3 Ad Mech units in a Skitarii force, having the Warlord's unit counting as though you had the full 8+ is kind of a big deal.
Verviedi wrote: Chimeras do seem excellent for transports.
I'm not running Convocation due to having no money for a knight, so I'm basically screwed on Canticles. (And my opponent refuses to play against my AdMech if I roll a 6 on my Dominus' warlord traits)
I'm basically running on extreme self-nerfing due to many of my opponents believing AdMech is Eldar-tier broken.
Why refuse if you get a 6? It's not that good! Strategic warlord traits are a million times better
When you're running 3 Ad Mech units in a Skitarii force, having the Warlord's unit counting as though you had the full 8+ is kind of a big deal.
If that one unit is say a cybernetica cohort worth 800 points all the more.
1. Skitarii NEED a more effective way of moving up. I was losing squads before they could get into Arc Rifle range, let alone Radium Carbine range.
2. It is pathetic that Sicarians are T3. A single Psycannon Purgation Squad and a Dreadknight wiped out two squads in cover in one turn.
3. Intelligent use of cover is necessary for Ad Mech. T3 4+ is far too fragile to be out in the open.
4. Tech-Priest Dominus with Cognis in front of a Gravaphron squad is amazing. He ate the entire enemy army's shotting for two turns without taking a wound, but eventually died horribly on turn 3.
Yea, the bane of the army are flamers/heavy flamers. GK flamers are all that much worse
Though not quite sure how you're not outranging their flamers. I mean if you're playing GK, their ranged is terrible, you can just wait for them to come to you
They were camping the one objective. I was playing a modified planetstrike scenario, I rolled a bad board tile for deployment, and my orbital bombardment whiffed.
Verviedi wrote: Chimeras do seem excellent for transports.
I'm not running Convocation due to having no money for a knight, so I'm basically screwed on Canticles. (And my opponent refuses to play against my AdMech if I roll a 6 on my Dominus' warlord traits)
I'm basically running on extreme self-nerfing due to many of my opponents believing AdMech is Eldar-tier broken.
Why refuse if you get a 6? It's not that good! Strategic warlord traits are a million times better
When you're running 3 Ad Mech units in a Skitarii force, having the Warlord's unit counting as though you had the full 8+ is kind of a big deal.
It is still barely broken as just being confined to the warlord unit is a fair enough. Only really good if it was the Cohort.
Verviedi wrote: Chimeras do seem excellent for transports.
I'm not running Convocation due to having no money for a knight, so I'm basically screwed on Canticles. (And my opponent refuses to play against my AdMech if I roll a 6 on my Dominus' warlord traits)
I'm basically running on extreme self-nerfing due to many of my opponents believing AdMech is Eldar-tier broken.
Why refuse if you get a 6? It's not that good! Strategic warlord traits are a million times better
When you're running 3 Ad Mech units in a Skitarii force, having the Warlord's unit counting as though you had the full 8+ is kind of a big deal.
It is still barely broken as just being confined to the warlord unit is a fair enough. Only really good if it was the Cohort.
To a point, I would agree--but I would also posit that a minimum of 3 AdMech units in a Skitarii force with one of those units consistently having 8+ for Canticles is still a big deal.
Dunecrawlers are very wide and low to the ground to the point that they grant a cover save to units behind them while still allowing the protected units to shoot. To a certain extent, the Dunecrawler can actually block all LOS to the unit behind it.
So, would using a Dunecrawler with, say, an Erad Beamer and Cognis Manipulator as a mobile cover brick for a squad of Vanguard be viable?
Dunecrawlers are very wide and low to the ground to the point that they grant a cover save to units behind them while still allowing the protected units to shoot. To a certain extent, the Dunecrawler can actually block all LOS to the unit behind it.
So, would using a Dunecrawler with, say, an Erad Beamer and Cognis Manipulator as a mobile cover brick for a squad of Vanguard be viable?
Vanguard need to get up the midfield at least to make noise. keep them in ruins and behind LOS terrain, most comp boards should have atleast 3-4 medium/large sized ruins.
Ok, good to know. I'll test that unit in a game and get back to you on it.
Now, what do you think about the Holy Requisitioner and Elimination Maniple formations? I'm thinking that the HR formation is a death sentence for IG, and the EM is really going to create a Jetbike Murder Simulator.
I recently played a game with the elimination maniple and it was not the greatest. One, grav kataphron and phosphor weapons don't want the same targets. Two, when armor 3 or worse was the target, the formation was nothing but wasted overkill. I think other than to avoid an HQ tax it's pretty useless.
So I want to run a Cybernetic Cohort with marines. My question is in your opinion supports about 750 points of the cohort played to hold center table etc. Lets assume competitive. I honestly would like to stick with Imp Fists as it is my 30k marine army.
What's the best way for the war convocation to deal with the farsighted bomb? Like many of you, I can't get much cover, and I have a hard time getting units across the board to do the damage they need to do. They always seem to out shoot me as well.
f it.
I like dragoons as well, but every time I think about expanding my force of them I decide against it due to just the price.
