ultimentra wrote: The Auspex is a trade off, do you spend 39 points on another Vanguard with a plasma caliver, or do spend 55 on a techmarine with an Auspex? Or 65 if you go for a Sang. Priest?
If you're bringing Flesh Tearers, you need an HQ anyway (presumably a Sanguinary Priest as it helps the few "tax" Blood Angels that much better), so an Auspex seems like an easy investment. Its a relatively token amount of points, that combined with Lumingen, and an Omnispex, essentially makes your army, or a unit that really needs it, ignores cover.
I disagree, I think 65 points is too much for a model which functionally does nothing but provide an Auspex. Can anyone here do some quick math hammer on 6 plasma caliver shots, Omni and Auspex vs. 9 Plasma caliver shots with only an omni against MEQ in cover, or jinking marine bikers?
it depends on what cover. 4+ cover is pretty easy to deal with. It becomes 5+ cover and you would rather have more shots than it become 6+
but for 2+ cover shenanagins, shrouded and stealth junk. 2+ cover becames 3+. Having 50% more shots is the same as making the cover 4+....
but if the cover is rerollable.. remove as much cover as possible if you want to do damage.
So what's everyone's thoughts on using a Crusader with some Skits at 1500 points?
I already have a Paladin and an Errant and the only thing that really tempts me with the new kit is the Crusader. Here's what I've got:
Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, 2x Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Flamer, Rapid-fire Battle Cannon, Stormspear Rocket Pod
your infiltrators won't last as the only assault unit. they have basically no place in an otherwise completely shooty list.
On the other hand - anyone got any clue how the skitarii and Cult Mechanicus could mesh? Using both sounds like a no brainer - but what wholes could one fix on the other ones setup?
So far I don't see any synergy between the two..
Skitarii seem to rely on Onagers and Plasma to punch through 3+/2+ armor. Meanwhile, Cult seems to have to go out of their way to not have AP3 at least.
Thairne wrote: your infiltrators won't last as the only assault unit. they have basically no place in an otherwise completely shooty list.
On the other hand - anyone got any clue how the skitarii and Cult Mechanicus could mesh? Using both sounds like a no brainer - but what wholes could one fix on the other ones setup?
So far I don't see any synergy between the two..
Vanguard provide wonderful anti horde that thus far it looks like Cult Mech lack.
Havent seen anything i loved in cult mech for CC, although robot ninjas arent my favorite either, I think infiltrators are good enough to be feilded with cult mech.
Cult Mech seem to do long ranged anti heavy infantry really well, and long range anti tank better than Skitarii.
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obsidiankatana wrote: Skitarii seem to rely on Onagers and Plasma to punch through 3+/2+ armor. Meanwhile, Cult seems to have to go out of their way to not have AP3 at least.
yes, basically that. It seems like cult mech would have some trouble with hordes. They have a fair number of units that can take flamers, even some with torrent flamers, but they are kinda expensive for how many flamers you get. You dont want to be depending on grav weapons and heavy phosphor blasters to take out mobs of shoota boyz.
Some combination of Vanguards w/ Arc Rifles, Eradication/Icarus Onagers, Kataphron Destroyers w/ Grav, and possible Phosphor Kastelans (though with Kataphron Grav, Kastelans lose value).
Thairne wrote: your infiltrators won't last as the only assault unit. they have basically no place in an otherwise completely shooty list.
On the other hand - anyone got any clue how the skitarii and Cult Mechanicus could mesh? Using both sounds like a no brainer - but what wholes could one fix on the other ones setup?
So far I don't see any synergy between the two..
Skitarii provide lots of bodies and specialty weapons. The only heavy weapons are on Onagers.
Cult Mechanicus provides low body/high toughness setup with lots of heavy weapons. There seem to only be a few specialty weapons, and none as good as Skitarii.
That right there should be good enough synergy. Skitarii is massed dudes and Haywire/Plasma units, backing up the low model count heavy weapon units of Grav Destroyers and Robots. It looks like we'll have some overlap with the Ruststalker/Infiltrators and Electropriest variants, though.
I wonder, is there any reason to take anything other than grav on those robots? Skitarii supplies enough haywire already, the torsion cannon is only one shot, and the plasma weapon is not as good as the grab cannon...
Super Newb wrote: I wonder, is there any reason to take anything other than grav on those robots? Skitarii supplies enough haywire already, the torsion cannon is only one shot, and the plasma weapon is not as good as the grab cannon...
If there is, I don't see it. Unless we see a stark rise in unarmored, high wound count MCs.
Super Newb wrote: I wonder, is there any reason to take anything other than grav on those robots? Skitarii supplies enough haywire already, the torsion cannon is only one shot, and the plasma weapon is not as good as the grab cannon...
I think the haywire breachers might see some use. Vanguard are pretty good at providing haywire, but have a 24" range and double tap of 12". They also are going to be your primary anti horde, you dont want to waste your radguns shooting at a vehicle. The heavy arc gun has 36" threat range and 2 shots all the way out to that range.
But grav is still the best option, just not sure if it will be the ONLY option.
The plasma and torsion guns are cute, but not enough to compete.
Super Newb wrote: I wonder, is there any reason to take anything other than grav on those robots? Skitarii supplies enough haywire already, the torsion cannon is only one shot, and the plasma weapon is not as good as the grab cannon...
If you face a lot of Guard, Daemons, Orks, etc, then Grav is pretty bad and Plasma is likely as good or better. If you face a lot of straight up vehicle lists, Breachers might be better because Grav only does anything on 6s.
But as a generalist weapon? Grav is the best. You get anti-horde or anti-vehicle better elsewhere as well. Take the Grav, and if they're useless in a given matchup, then the rest of your army should make up for it.
Should be noted that the arc and torsion guns can only be taken with the 3+ armor troops, while the 4+ armor ones can choose between plasma or grav. Might tip the balance for someone. I still see the grav as best personally...
obsidiankatana wrote: Eh, Grav also has three times as many shots per model. Doubt it's much worse than the Heavy Arc Rifles at AV.
Grav gets 6 shots at BS4 = 3 hits doing things on 6 = .5 HPs Arc get 2 shots at BS4 = 1 hit doing things on 2+ = 8.33 HPs (chance to pen as well)
Not much worse, but Haywire is much more reliable on the Glance/Pen front. Breachers are also 15 points cheaper and have better armor, so keep that in mind.
Grav is the better all around weapon by far, but against purely vehicles Arc is a consideration to be taken. But, like I said, Grav is also again better because you can get anti-vehicle from lots of other places (namely Skitarii or SM Allies).
obsidiankatana wrote: Eh, Grav also has three times as many shots per model. Doubt it's much worse than the Heavy Arc Rifles at AV.
.16 of grav hits lead to a hull point
.86 of haywire hits lead to a hull point
3 times as many shots bring the grav per shot to .5 which still isnt as good as .86
You get the immobilized results as well, but the haywire will get a few Pens.
The haywire also comes on breachers, who have a 3+ save, which will save them from heavybolter/autocannon spam.
But then you also have secondary weapons. Breachers have CC claws while destroyers have flamer or phosphor rifles.
Grav isn't bad at anti vehicle, haywire is just better. Where that mass grav comes into play though is against elite units and monstrous/gargantuan creatures. one group of 3 kataphrons with grav has a decent chance of outright killing a wraithknight in one volley
gameandwatch wrote: Grav isn't bad at anti vehicle, haywire is just better. Where that mass grav comes into play though is against elite units and monstrous/gargantuan creatures. one group of 3 kataphrons with grav has a decent chance of outright killing a wraithknight in one volley
Word. Grav dude troops from cult mech along with a bunch of skitarii with arc rifles can handle everything but flying stuff. Seems like a good combo to me.
Without the supposed +1 BS formation, a unit of 3 Grav Destroyers do 4 wounds to a double D gun Wraithknight, or 2.6 wounds to one with an Invuln save. If it's one with the double D, your base 2 Troops choices can easily get you a Wraithknight OTK, while it only needs a bit higher than statistical rolling to get one with an Invuln save.
If that formation is true, then that's 5.33 wounds to non-Invuln and 3.5 to one with an Invuln, and they can't "toe in cover". That's one of the best choices for killing a WK that I've seen.
Requizen wrote: Without the supposed +1 BS formation, a unit of 3 Grav Destroyers do 4 wounds to a double D gun Wraithknight, or 2.6 wounds to one with an Invuln save. If it's one with the double D, your base 2 Troops choices can easily get you a Wraithknight OTK, while it only needs a bit higher than statistical rolling to get one with an Invuln save.
If that formation is true, then that's 5.33 wounds to non-Invuln and 3.5 to one with an Invuln, and they can't "toe in cover". That's one of the best choices for killing a WK that I've seen.
All at 30" range as well, it really is quite disgusting
Requizen wrote: Without the supposed +1 BS formation, a unit of 3 Grav Destroyers do 4 wounds to a double D gun Wraithknight, or 2.6 wounds to one with an Invuln save. If it's one with the double D, your base 2 Troops choices can easily get you a Wraithknight OTK, while it only needs a bit higher than statistical rolling to get one with an Invuln save.
If that formation is true, then that's 5.33 wounds to non-Invuln and 3.5 to one with an Invuln, and they can't "toe in cover". That's one of the best choices for killing a WK that I've seen.
All at 30" range as well, it really is quite disgusting
On the flip side they only have a 4+ armor save. And no real ablative wounds. Cause 2 wounds, you kill a third of the squad.
On the flip flip side they are troops and a person could take 4 squads of these or more...
While I appreciate the HP differences in Grav vs Arc (and I ran the math, though thank you for the posts - also account that Grav needs only 2 hits out of ~9 to result in 6's to drop 3HP, Arc needs 3 out of ~3 2+ results, referencing min squads of 3, and yes I know the latter is more likely), the point was that they were comparable enough that the more versatile option (Grav) would be preferable to take. As in, why take a dedicated Arc Rifle Breacher squad when a Destroyer squad with Grav can do that, and kill 2+ infantry, and kill MCs, etc.
Requizen wrote: Without the supposed +1 BS formation, a unit of 3 Grav Destroyers do 4 wounds to a double D gun Wraithknight, or 2.6 wounds to one with an Invuln save. If it's one with the double D, your base 2 Troops choices can easily get you a Wraithknight OTK, while it only needs a bit higher than statistical rolling to get one with an Invuln save.
If that formation is true, then that's 5.33 wounds to non-Invuln and 3.5 to one with an Invuln, and they can't "toe in cover". That's one of the best choices for killing a WK that I've seen.
All at 30" range as well, it really is quite disgusting
On the flip side they only have a 4+ armor save. And no real ablative wounds. Cause 2 wounds, you kill a third of the squad.
On the flip flip side they are troops and a person could take 4 squads of these or more...
It also depends on how much and how many with the HQs (how much they cost, how many can we take). Yeah 4+ save is meh, but at t5 they are harder to wound and can fire most guns at a safe distance. Just thinking of the alpha strike potential... especially with the ignores cover formation... is...just...DUMB I am really likely the synergy of Ad Mech and skitarii, skitarii provides the fast assault options and anti-horde/ vehicle troops, where as ad mech provides that first turn long range firepower and weapons to engage elite units and deathstars. The threat saturation is really quite incredible and will really force opponents to think hard as to what they should engage. Skitarii/ ad mech in my opinion have one of the best alpha strike armies in the game, with a great tool for pretty much any circumstance.
exsanguis wrote:So what's everyone's thoughts on using a Crusader with some Skits at 1500 points?
I already have a Paladin and an Errant and the only thing that really tempts me with the new kit is the Crusader. Here's what I've got:
Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, 2x Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Flamer, Rapid-fire Battle Cannon, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Thairne wrote:your infiltrators won't last as the only assault unit. they have basically no place in an otherwise completely shooty list.
On the other hand - anyone got any clue how the skitarii and Cult Mechanicus could mesh? Using both sounds like a no brainer - but what wholes could one fix on the other ones setup?
So far I don't see any synergy between the two..
Thairne I would actually disagree, as the role of Infiltratoris is not necessarily to be a beatstick and threaten the enemy in CC. That role is reserved for Ruststalkers and Dragoons. Infiltrators perform best when outflanking (utilizing that nifty 10pt upgrade) in order to contest an opponents backfield, the place where they will likely have their weakest objective-holder units such as scouts, cultists, or kroot. The 9'' move will allow them to easily contest or capture backfield objectives and charge that backfield objective holder unit, or for example an artillery unit or vehicle that needs to sit in the opponents deployment zone.
Car Verification Values. The little codes on the back of credit cards.
The Machine-Spirit of the thread must have briefly objected to something. It has been repaired.
Ahhh, okay. I don't know how you sell those, but I've seen more egregious scam ads.
Recieve payment in Bitcoin, email the card number and CVV. Remember when Home Depot and Target got hacked? These scammers are selling the card data from hacks like that.
Back on topic-
The Kataphrons are looking MARVELOUS. I will definitely buy a box or 2, but I'll hold off until we can see what Canticles of the Omnissiah does.
Best loadouts are most likely Torsion Cannon/Arc Claw for breachers and Grav for Destroyers, but that was obvious anyway.
I'm still struggling to see a situation where I'd want to bring either version of Breachers over Destroyers. Yes, 3+ and a CCW, but honestly the amount of shooting the Destroyers put out (especially in the supposed Formation) more than makes up for that imo.
Requizen wrote: I'm still struggling to see a situation where I'd want to bring either version of Breachers over Destroyers. Yes, 3+ and a CCW, but honestly the amount of shooting the Destroyers put out (especially in the supposed Formation) more than makes up for that imo.
I'm struggling to find a reason for Kastelans even, with Grav Destroyers as an option. I guess the formation requires both, but Destroyers are cheaper and put out more shots.
Requizen wrote: I'm still struggling to see a situation where I'd want to bring either version of Breachers over Destroyers. Yes, 3+ and a CCW, but honestly the amount of shooting the Destroyers put out (especially in the supposed Formation) more than makes up for that imo.
I'm struggling to find a reason for Kastelans even, with Grav Destroyers as an option. I guess the formation requires both, but Destroyers are cheaper and put out more shots.
Easy - S6 AP3 guns are good against everything. Destroyers and Breachers both fall short against mobs of things with low armor saves. Grav is great - until you have to shoot against Daemons, Guard, or Orks, where you start wounding on 5+ or 6+. Robots are going to mulch down anything with their 6 Phosphor Guns per turn, 9 if they use the Protocol that lets them fire twice as long as they don't move.
They're both good heavy weapons that compliment each other quite nicely. I'm just worried about Electropriests. They'll really have to wow me to fit in.
Requizen wrote: I'm still struggling to see a situation where I'd want to bring either version of Breachers over Destroyers. Yes, 3+ and a CCW, but honestly the amount of shooting the Destroyers put out (especially in the supposed Formation) more than makes up for that imo.
Requizen wrote: I'm still struggling to see a situation where I'd want to bring either version of Breachers over Destroyers. Yes, 3+ and a CCW, but honestly the amount of shooting the Destroyers put out (especially in the supposed Formation) more than makes up for that imo.
Holy Requisition Arc-Bomb.
Yeah, I suppose that's it. A pretty good thing, but then more or less wasted against non-vehicle or vehicle-light armies. Torsion guns are the better generalist guns, but not as good as an anti-armor drop unit.
Requizen wrote: I'm still struggling to see a situation where I'd want to bring either version of Breachers over Destroyers. Yes, 3+ and a CCW, but honestly the amount of shooting the Destroyers put out (especially in the supposed Formation) more than makes up for that imo.
I'm struggling to find a reason for Kastelans even, with Grav Destroyers as an option. I guess the formation requires both, but Destroyers are cheaper and put out more shots.
Easy - S6 AP3 guns are good against everything. Destroyers and Breachers both fall short against mobs of things with low armor saves. Grav is great - until you have to shoot against Daemons, Guard, or Orks, where you start wounding on 5+ or 6+. Robots are going to mulch down anything with their 6 Phosphor Guns per turn, 9 if they use the Protocol that lets them fire twice as long as they don't move.
They're both good heavy weapons that compliment each other quite nicely. I'm just worried about Electropriests. They'll really have to wow me to fit in.
Exclusively to the Cult, this is true. However (and I should have mentioned this) I plan to combine Cult and Skitarii - where Vanguard and Eradication Onagers exist.
Requizen wrote: I'm still struggling to see a situation where I'd want to bring either version of Breachers over Destroyers. Yes, 3+ and a CCW, but honestly the amount of shooting the Destroyers put out (especially in the supposed Formation) more than makes up for that imo.
I'm struggling to find a reason for Kastelans even, with Grav Destroyers as an option. I guess the formation requires both, but Destroyers are cheaper and put out more shots.
Easy - S6 AP3 guns are good against everything. Destroyers and Breachers both fall short against mobs of things with low armor saves. Grav is great - until you have to shoot against Daemons, Guard, or Orks, where you start wounding on 5+ or 6+. Robots are going to mulch down anything with their 6 Phosphor Guns per turn, 9 if they use the Protocol that lets them fire twice as long as they don't move.
They're both good heavy weapons that compliment each other quite nicely. I'm just worried about Electropriests. They'll really have to wow me to fit in.
Exclusively to the Cult, this is true. However (and I should have mentioned this) I plan to combine Cult and Skitarii - where Vanguard and Eradication Onagers exist.
Yeah, once Allies come in it's quite a different game. Depends on if you want all that AP3 shooting - if you don't care too much about it, then yeah you can probably pick other options over it.
Requizen wrote: Yeah, once Allies come in it's quite a different game. Depends on if you want all that AP3 shooting - if you don't care too much about it, then yeah you can probably pick other options over it.
That's the conundrum. Kataphrons bring AP2 for days, Vanguard and Onagers cover horde and AA, Ruststalkers and Infiltrators for CC (with limited electro-priest information). Kastelans left out to dry.
Requizen wrote: Yeah, once Allies come in it's quite a different game. Depends on if you want all that AP3 shooting - if you don't care too much about it, then yeah you can probably pick other options over it.
That's the conundrum. Kataphrons bring AP2 for days, Vanguard and Onagers cover horde and AA, Ruststalkers and Infiltrators for CC (with limited electro-priest information). Kastelans left out to dry.
I mean, not entirely. It's a unit of T7 W3 3+ MCs with S6 AP3 guns. That's really good. Vanguard are good, but they're also fairly squishy. Onagers are awesomely shooty, but still fall into the vehicle trap of possibly getting exploded/immobilized/weapon destroyed in one shot, though the Invuln on them helps.
MCs are a great unit type. Big, tough, and killy. Even if they get charged and traded out their power fists (which they should), they're S6 AP2 punching. And the Formation gives them Ignores Cover on an AP3 gun, which is about as fantastic of a weapon as you can get. So, I think they'll be a perfectly reasonable choice for a unit.
Requizen wrote: Yeah, once Allies come in it's quite a different game. Depends on if you want all that AP3 shooting - if you don't care too much about it, then yeah you can probably pick other options over it.
That's the conundrum. Kataphrons bring AP2 for days, Vanguard and Onagers cover horde and AA, Ruststalkers and Infiltrators for CC (with limited electro-priest information). Kastelans left out to dry.
I mean, not entirely. It's a unit of T7 W3 3+ MCs with S6 AP3 guns. That's really good. Vanguard are good, but they're also fairly squishy. Onagers are awesomely shooty, but still fall into the vehicle trap of possibly getting exploded/immobilized/weapon destroyed in one shot, though the Invuln on them helps.
MCs are a great unit type. Big, tough, and killy. Even if they get charged and traded out their power fists (which they should), they're S6 AP2 punching. And the Formation gives them Ignores Cover on an AP3 gun, which is about as fantastic of a weapon as you can get. So, I think they'll be a perfectly reasonable choice for a unit.
As part of the formation, sure. But for the equivalent cost of a minimum squad of Kastelans, you get ~30 Vanguard. Five times the MC profile wound count, 90 shots vs 12, with Doctrina Imperatives. Or 3 Eradication Onagers, so 9HP @ AV12 with 4++ dishing out 3x of any shot profile. It's not a bad unit by any stretch - but others do seem to do it better for the cost. They pay a versatility tax.
obsidiankatana wrote: Grav gets 6 shots at BS4 = 3 hits doing things on 6 = .5 HPs Arc get 2 shots at BS4 = 1 hit doing things on 2+ = 8.33 HPs (chance to pen as well)
obsidiankatana wrote: Grav gets 6 shots at BS4 = 3 hits doing things on 6 = .5 HPs Arc get 2 shots at BS4 = 1 hit doing things on 2+ = 8.33 HPs (chance to pen as well)
That math is a bit flawed
Mistype, I imagine. I understood where he was going with it.
obsidiankatana wrote: Grav gets 6 shots at BS4 = 3 hits doing things on 6 = .5 HPs Arc get 2 shots at BS4 = 1 hit doing things on 2+ = 8.33 HPs (chance to pen as well)
That math is a bit flawed
lulz, making those tough arguments are we?
8.33 should be .833 - I think everyone realized that already.
obsidiankatana wrote: Grav gets 6 shots at BS4 = 3 hits doing things on 6 = .5 HPs Arc get 2 shots at BS4 = 1 hit doing things on 2+ = 8.33 HPs (chance to pen as well)
That math is a bit flawed
lulz, making those tough arguments are we?
8.33 should be .833 - I think everyone realized that already.
6 shots bs 4 = 4 hits, not 3.
2 shots bs 4 = 4/3 chance, not 1. Normally id say hes just rounding down, but based on math above I dont think that was his plan.
obsidiankatana wrote: Grav gets 6 shots at BS4 = 3 hits doing things on 6 = .5 HPs Arc get 2 shots at BS4 = 1 hit doing things on 2+ = 8.33 HPs (chance to pen as well)
That math is a bit flawed
lulz, making those tough arguments are we?
8.33 should be .833 - I think everyone realized that already.
6 shots bs 4 = 4 hits, not 3.
2 shots bs 4 = 4/3 chance, not 1. Normally id say hes just rounding down, but based on math above I dont think that was his plan.
I assume both were actually done at BS3 to compare Kataphron Breachers and Destroyers. Also, why is this a quote of me? Just noticed that. That's not my post.
obsidiankatana wrote: Grav gets 6 shots at BS4 = 3 hits doing things on 6 = .5 HPs Arc get 2 shots at BS4 = 1 hit doing things on 2+ = 8.33 HPs (chance to pen as well)
That math is a bit flawed
lulz, making those tough arguments are we?
8.33 should be .833 - I think everyone realized that already.
6 shots bs 4 = 4 hits, not 3.
2 shots bs 4 = 4/3 chance, not 1. Normally id say hes just rounding down, but based on math above I dont think that was his plan.
I assume both were actually done at BS3 to compare Kataphron Breachers and Destroyers. Also, why is this a quote of me? Just noticed that. That's not my post.
Yes I think he meant it to be at bs 3. Just pointing out that at bs4, the math is a bit flawed.
Lol I messed up with the quote. I quoted you quoting him, and when deleting all of his comment besides that math I must have deleted his name, causing yours to be the one shown. Whoops
So I'm taking the general consensus is to take Kataphrons over Kastelans MCs? I haven't been following rumor out there so am a bit behind.
I feel like the MCs might fill the niche of a fire magnet, but if their points cost and what sort of weaponry bring to the table don't justify the cost, then they're a wash. I'm not entirely sold on the models yet either. I need to see some nice conversions of their goofy heads before I commit.
Kataphrons though, I can get all on board with them. They seem relatively sturdy with T5, and grav is icing on the cake. I deal with a lot of SM players in my area, so grav never underperforms. I might have to grab a box or 2.
Really interested in what roll the Priests will fill. 3 CC units seems a bit much in such a small army. Ad Mech with both armies taken into account still feels a bit off as a full army, if the rumors of them being combined are to be trusted. A few more weird vehicles would really round them out I think.
Also ordered my first Onager. I'll get 2 more as soon as funds allow, but how should I load it out as a single guy? Icarus? I'm hoping it's easy to magnetize into all variants, but we'll see.
It's fairly easy to magnetize the gun on the Onager. I did it with 3 guns that I may use, but the best loadout for 1 is the array. And I didn't bother magnetizing the extra stubber (because hell 5 pts for a stubber I'll always take) but it wouldn't be difficult as well.
Verviedi wrote: I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.
Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.
Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.
Verviedi wrote: I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.
Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.
Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.
I'll actually be fielding single neutron tomorrow. Escalation league kicking up from 500 to 700pts.
5x Rangers w/ 2x Arquebus
10x Vanguard w/ 2x Arc rifle
5x Ruststalkers w/ Claws, Dataspike & Conv Field on Princeps
3x Dragoons w/ Phosphor
1x Onager w/ Neutron
Verviedi wrote: I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.
Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.
Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.
I used it. It killed one Zoanthrope and ate the fire from a double devourer Flyrant. I think it may also have killed some Gaunts.
Don't assume that 100% of the time I'm operating on theory.
Wingeds wrote: So I'm taking the general consensus is to take Kataphrons over Kastelans MCs? I haven't been following rumor out there so am a bit behind.
I feel like the MCs might fill the niche of a fire magnet, but if their points cost and what sort of weaponry bring to the table don't justify the cost, then they're a wash. I'm not entirely sold on the models yet either. I need to see some nice conversions of their goofy heads before I commit.
Kataphrons though, I can get all on board with them. They seem relatively sturdy with T5, and grav is icing on the cake. I deal with a lot of SM players in my area, so grav never underperforms. I might have to grab a box or 2.
Really interested in what roll the Priests will fill. 3 CC units seems a bit much in such a small army. Ad Mech with both armies taken into account still feels a bit off as a full army, if the rumors of them being combined are to be trusted. A few more weird vehicles would really round them out I think.
Also ordered my first Onager. I'll get 2 more as soon as funds allow, but how should I load it out as a single guy? Icarus? I'm hoping it's easy to magnetize into all variants, but we'll see.
Kataphrons are great. Amazing Troops choice, only downside (if you can call it that) is the weak 4+ and BS4 if not in the Formation.
But I'm still not counting out Kastelans. They're different slots, and they fill different roles. And a T7 3W 3+/5++(sometimes FNP) MC with a 2+ character is pretty darn great. And one that can fire 6-9 S6 AP3 guns is amazing, and at 6" more than the Kataphrons. Against Lightly Armored targets, it's going to out damage the Grav Guns, and it also doubles out Eldar, Dark Eldar, little Tyranids, and Guard, which is nice.
Just because the Kataphron is the best at taking out heavily armored MCs and Wraithknights doesn't mean that the rest of the codex doesn't stand up to it
Wingeds wrote: So I'm taking the general consensus is to take Kataphrons over Kastelans MCs? I haven't been following rumor out there so am a bit behind.
I feel like the MCs might fill the niche of a fire magnet, but if their points cost and what sort of weaponry bring to the table don't justify the cost, then they're a wash. I'm not entirely sold on the models yet either. I need to see some nice conversions of their goofy heads before I commit.
Kataphrons though, I can get all on board with them. They seem relatively sturdy with T5, and grav is icing on the cake. I deal with a lot of SM players in my area, so grav never underperforms. I might have to grab a box or 2.
Really interested in what roll the Priests will fill. 3 CC units seems a bit much in such a small army. Ad Mech with both armies taken into account still feels a bit off as a full army, if the rumors of them being combined are to be trusted. A few more weird vehicles would really round them out I think.
Also ordered my first Onager. I'll get 2 more as soon as funds allow, but how should I load it out as a single guy? Icarus? I'm hoping it's easy to magnetize into all variants, but we'll see.
Kataphrons are great. Amazing Troops choice, only downside (if you can call it that) is the weak 4+ and BS4 if not in the Formation.
But I'm still not counting out Kastelans. They're different slots, and they fill different roles. And a T7 3W 3+/5++(sometimes FNP) MC with a 2+ character is pretty darn great. And one that can fire 6-9 S6 AP3 guns is amazing, and at 6" more than the Kataphrons. Against Lightly Armored targets, it's going to out damage the Grav Guns, and it also doubles out Eldar, Dark Eldar, little Tyranids, and Guard, which is nice.
Just because the Kataphron is the best at taking out heavily armored MCs and Wraithknights doesn't mean that the rest of the codex doesn't stand up to it
This is an important note. Kastelans do fill a role within a Cult Mechanicus army. The only reason I'm skeptical about them is due to combining Cult with Skitarii.
Wingeds wrote: So I'm taking the general consensus is to take Kataphrons over Kastelans MCs? I haven't been following rumor out there so am a bit behind.
I feel like the MCs might fill the niche of a fire magnet, but if their points cost and what sort of weaponry bring to the table don't justify the cost, then they're a wash. I'm not entirely sold on the models yet either. I need to see some nice conversions of their goofy heads before I commit.
Kataphrons though, I can get all on board with them. They seem relatively sturdy with T5, and grav is icing on the cake. I deal with a lot of SM players in my area, so grav never underperforms. I might have to grab a box or 2.
Really interested in what roll the Priests will fill. 3 CC units seems a bit much in such a small army. Ad Mech with both armies taken into account still feels a bit off as a full army, if the rumors of them being combined are to be trusted. A few more weird vehicles would really round them out I think.
Also ordered my first Onager. I'll get 2 more as soon as funds allow, but how should I load it out as a single guy? Icarus? I'm hoping it's easy to magnetize into all variants, but we'll see.
Kataphrons are great. Amazing Troops choice, only downside (if you can call it that) is the weak 4+ and BS4 if not in the Formation.
But I'm still not counting out Kastelans. They're different slots, and they fill different roles. And a T7 3W 3+/5++(sometimes FNP) MC with a 2+ character is pretty darn great. And one that can fire 6-9 S6 AP3 guns is amazing, and at 6" more than the Kataphrons. Against Lightly Armored targets, it's going to out damage the Grav Guns, and it also doubles out Eldar, Dark Eldar, little Tyranids, and Guard, which is nice.
Just because the Kataphron is the best at taking out heavily armored MCs and Wraithknights doesn't mean that the rest of the codex doesn't stand up to it
This is an important note. Kastelans do fill a role within a Cult Mechanicus army. The only reason I'm skeptical about them is due to combining Cult with Skitarii.
With Skitarii, they share the "high strength low AP" shooting with Plasma Vanguard and Onagers.
Plasma Vanguard are more numerous, more shots, etc. But, they're also squishier, prone to die to blasts/templates, and shorter ranged. Somewhat solved with Drop Pods, of course.
Onagers like I said, are vehicles. I still dislike vehicles, MCs are better in most situations. They're durable vehicles with Invulns, but every time I use a vehicle, suddenly a Lance or Melta or Hammerhead or Hawire whatever drops down and kills it in one round of shooting. That rarely happens to MCs outside of ID guns (which are fairly rare).
Not saying they're better, but they're worth considering for the same role. And I like that, choices are always better than an obvious #1
Requizen wrote: With Skitarii, they share the "high strength low AP" shooting with Plasma Vanguard and Onagers.
Plasma Vanguard are more numerous, more shots, etc. But, they're also squishier, prone to die to blasts/templates, and shorter ranged. Somewhat solved with Drop Pods, of course.
Onagers like I said, are vehicles. I still dislike vehicles, MCs are better in most situations. They're durable vehicles with Invulns, but every time I use a vehicle, suddenly a Lance or Melta or Hammerhead or Hawire whatever drops down and kills it in one round of shooting. That rarely happens to MCs outside of ID guns (which are fairly rare).
Not saying they're better, but they're worth considering for the same role. And I like that, choices are always better than an obvious #1
Very true. This slots more into the same situation as Necrons and Eldar (moreso Eldar). Several selections, all of which are good. My only trepidation (as previously mentioned) is that the anti heavy infantry/MC role is fulfilled cheaper by the (admittedly squishier) Kataphrons, anti horde/GEQ by Vanguards, AV by Arc Weaponry (Vanguards, Breachers) / Onagers (Neutron) / Grav (Destroyers), AA by Onagers (Icarus). So, with that interpretation of army composition, Kastelans pay a versatility price to be capable of several roles while other options do each individual component better (either by having higher model count, shot count, etc).
Requizen wrote: With Skitarii, they share the "high strength low AP" shooting with Plasma Vanguard and Onagers.
Plasma Vanguard are more numerous, more shots, etc. But, they're also squishier, prone to die to blasts/templates, and shorter ranged. Somewhat solved with Drop Pods, of course.
Onagers like I said, are vehicles. I still dislike vehicles, MCs are better in most situations. They're durable vehicles with Invulns, but every time I use a vehicle, suddenly a Lance or Melta or Hammerhead or Hawire whatever drops down and kills it in one round of shooting. That rarely happens to MCs outside of ID guns (which are fairly rare).
Not saying they're better, but they're worth considering for the same role. And I like that, choices are always better than an obvious #1
Very true. This slots more into the same situation as Necrons and Eldar (moreso Eldar). Several selections, all of which are good. My only trepidation (as previously mentioned) is that the anti heavy infantry/MC role is fulfilled cheaper by the (admittedly squishier) Kataphrons, anti horde/GEQ by Vanguards, AV by Arc Weaponry (Vanguards, Breachers) / Onagers (Neutron) / Grav (Destroyers), AA by Onagers (Icarus). So, with that interpretation of army composition, Kastelans pay a versatility price to be capable of several roles while other options do each individual component better (either by having higher model count, shot count, etc).
True, and that's a really cool way to play it! I love that Ad Mech only has a handful of units out and we're already seeing so much variance.
Truly. I'd like to investigate AdMech assault, as well. Breachers with Kastelans and Priests supported by outflanking Infiltrators and scouting Dragoons and Ruststalkers. Minimum Vanguard teams with Arc Rifles for AV duty. I think, while it may be far from the most powerful build, it'd be a fun list to take for a spin.
TranSpyre wrote: I think that kastelans will be better for a TAC list because they can fill so many roles with the same basic load-out.
If you're tailoring, they aren't as effective.
Well sure, but you needn't tailor to a specific list. Tailor your unit selections to other unit types. As in - ensure you have an answer for AV, GEQ, MEQ, TEQ, Flyers, MCs, and Hordes. Once done - if points allow, add Kastelans - as they can pad weaknesses.
The Manticore Sky Eagle is a STR 9 AP2 Ordnance 1 missile that is twin-linked against flyers and has skyfire.
How many points? Onager would be better, imo. Many more shots, some TL, some Interceptor, some ignore cover, some AP2. While buffing army Ld on Doctrina use and coming with an invul.
obsidiankatana wrote: Truly. I'd like to investigate AdMech assault, as well. Breachers with Kastelans and Priests supported by outflanking Infiltrators and scouting Dragoons and Ruststalkers. Minimum Vanguard teams with Arc Rifles for AV duty. I think, while it may be far from the most powerful build, it'd be a fun list to take for a spin.
Also, we can wait and see what happens with Electropriests as far as Assault goes. Supposedly there's a CC variant, but then again, the Breacher was supposed to be a "Assault" version of the Destroyer, so who knows what that means.
Verviedi wrote: I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.
Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.
Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.
I'll actually be fielding single neutron tomorrow. Escalation league kicking up from 500 too 700pts.
5x Rangers w/ 2x Arquebus
10x Vanguard w/ 2x Arc rifle
5x Ruststalkers w/ Claws, Dataspike & Conv Field on Princeps
3x Dragoons w/ Phosphor
1x Onager w/ Neutron
I'll report back how it goes.
I really like the Onager with Neutron. The ability to double out T5 models is really nice. With the BS buffs you can often place it right over top of where you want it, potentially getting multiple wounds that will lead to multiple ID on some units.
Or do I just play with too many thunderwolf cav, Daemon Princes and Grotesques to the point that I fear Str10 blasts a lot.
Tactical brilliance may occasionally crumple to brute force. Vindicators may not be taken very much, but there's a reason they're focused down quickly. Str10 AP2 is always scary.
Verviedi wrote: I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.
Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.
Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.
I'll actually be fielding single neutron tomorrow. Escalation league kicking up from 500 too 700pts.
5x Rangers w/ 2x Arquebus
10x Vanguard w/ 2x Arc rifle
5x Ruststalkers w/ Claws, Dataspike & Conv Field on Princeps
3x Dragoons w/ Phosphor
1x Onager w/ Neutron
I'll report back how it goes.
Depending on what you fight, you should have a fairly good game.
Be warned that Skitarii will struggle a bit against Tyranids, at least unless you've prepared to fight them.
Verviedi wrote: I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.
Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.
Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.
I used it. It killed one Zoanthrope and ate the fire from a double devourer Flyrant. I think it may also have killed some Gaunts.
Don't assume that 100% of the time I'm operating on theory.
Nidzilla worries me a bit, but not the swams. I fought a Daemonkin Cultist horde at the 500 level and more or less won off of Vanguard alone. So Gaunts/Gants don't worry me, warriors get doubled out on the charge by Dragoons, but I lack MC answers.
Kanluwen wrote: Neutron Lasers will be fairly good for chipping away at MCs. Add to it that they force a "Concussive" test and you can neuter their CC a bit.
That's the plan. Neutron followed by a Ruststalker charge. Next 200pts will either double by infantry count (10 more Vanguard, 5 more rangers) or slot in Kataphrons with Grav.
Verviedi wrote: I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.
Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.
Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.
I'll actually be fielding single neutron tomorrow. Escalation league kicking up from 500 too 700pts.
5x Rangers w/ 2x Arquebus
10x Vanguard w/ 2x Arc rifle
5x Ruststalkers w/ Claws, Dataspike & Conv Field on Princeps
3x Dragoons w/ Phosphor
1x Onager w/ Neutron
I'll report back how it goes.
Depending on what you fight, you should have a fairly good game.
Be warned that Skitarii will struggle a bit against Tyranids, at least unless you've prepared to fight them.
Verviedi wrote: I built my 1 Onager as a Neutron Laser. This was most likely a mistake.
Ugh. Stop theoryhammering and actually play.
Yeah, a single Neutron Laser isn't great by itself when facing huge amounts of armor or monstrous creatures.
But it is still good, especially when you field it as part of the Skitarii Maniple formation and use everything in synchronization.
I used it. It killed one Zoanthrope and ate the fire from a double devourer Flyrant. I think it may also have killed some Gaunts.
Don't assume that 100% of the time I'm operating on theory.
You fired the Neutron Laser at Gaunts?
...Why?
All of the Synapse was dead. I shot it at a Carnifex. It scattered into some Gaunts.
mmimzie wrote: What do you folks think of the destroyers with the plasma cannon things??? Ignoring skits so we can have some actual tactical talk about the unit
The plasma could be a strong option against horde type armies, and also does a number of vehicles (abit better than grav guns)
Str7 AP2 isnt for any hordes I know. And it is only 2 shot and small blast at a BS that is likely to scatter.
I think its Grav for Destroyers always
For Breachers I think it isnt as clear cut, haywire generally does vehicles best and torsion cannon handles light vehicles and MCs better, but perhaps not as well as Grav Destroyers
In the holistic way I have been viewing Skitarii and Cult-Mech as one book, I find Grav Destroyers seems like the obvious, and logical build for that kit, as Haywire is just so readily available, and cheaply on the Skitarii side.
I really have to say, viewed as a whole, and viewed together, I am in love with "Ad Mech" and it has reignited my enjoyment of 40k. I feel like there are genuine list building options again, and legitimate, and fair answers to anything any meta could throw at you.
More releases like these would serve the broader game well. :-p
Requizen wrote: Yeah, once Allies come in it's quite a different game. Depends on if you want all that AP3 shooting - if you don't care too much about it, then yeah you can probably pick other options over it.
That's the conundrum. Kataphrons bring AP2 for days, Vanguard and Onagers cover horde and AA, Ruststalkers and Infiltrators for CC (with limited electro-priest information). Kastelans left out to dry.
I think you're underestimating the difference MC, T7 and an extra wound can make. Kataphrons are the definition of a glass-cannon unit, and they will be a primary target for your opponent once they realise what the little tracked buggers can do. You can argue that Kataphrons can make up for that with redundancy through numbers, but that only goes so far once you start spending points on allied Skitters.
The way I see it, Kataphrons....right, bugger it; sod GW's IP-lawyering nonsense I'm calling them their proper name from now on. Praetorians are relatively cheap damage dealers, but with only a 4-up basic save they are going to wilt in a strong breeze even with 2 wounds and T5, and even with Cognis Flamers to deter assaults they're still going to be obliterated if your opponent Outflanks or Pods a CC unit on top of them. Kastelans aren't as good vs 2+ save elite infantry or heavy tanks, but against all other infantry types and light tanks/transports they're as good or better, and you're getting a platform that can't be doubled-out, is more difficult for your opponent to degrade the effectiveness of, has a better save and FnP plus occasional reflector shield shenanigans, and on top of that can make mincemeat of anything short of a super-heavy walker or CC-specialised high-T MC in close combat(remember even with all-Phosphor, the best loadout IMO, they're MCs so attack in CC with S6 AP2 and can Smash at S10 if necessary, plus you can trigger the CC protocols to up their attacks).
At first glance they're compared based on their weaponry alone, which favours the Praetorians, but when you look at the whole picture you can see they have different roles on the battlefield. Praetorians are fire-support, the AdMech equivalent of IG Heavy Weapon Squads just with cooler guns, the Kastelans are linebreakers, area-deniers, and objective-clearers; they're meant to be making your enemy's line infantry cack their pants at the sight of whole squads of anything MEQ or worse being deleted without ceremony every turn by a unit your opponent knows he's going to have to commit a LOT of resources to eliminating, while your specialist and support units like Praetorians pick off enemy elites and specialists and your wave of Arc-Vanguard grind inexorably towards the objectives.
Kinda off subject, but I've just played a small game of Mech vs Chaos, with the Kastelans and the Skitarii. The Kastelans were amazing in my experience! They got into a good position and started using Protector protocol, when they did they were destroying squads of marines and cultists alike! The Vaguard with arc rifles took out their transports and such, and the ones with Plasma Calivers killed a Jugger Lord along with his Spawn unit. In my opinion, I'm going to go with Robots and Vanguard for an effective force. I'm not sure what to think about the Kataphrone servitors though... Will stick with Kastelans for now.
I've been enjoying using the walker army over the last few weeks....played close to 20 games now with it. Definitely has its weak matches but its very fun.
I'm still agonising if I drop 2 shooty walkers or 2 combat walkers for the bastion with comms.
Still wish cavalier formation didn't have to reserve but thems the rules I suppose.
I'll try and put some battle reps up at some point.
So as not to clog up with text, dot quote. I may be undervaluing the T7 MC status, but I don't think so. And although the point differential is minimized with allied Skitarii, or rather appears to be by statement alone, I don't think it does. Destroyers are more than twice as cheap, with comparable range. Vanguard are as cheap as 9ppm. Between them they cover all the bases as far as offensive firepower, and for the equivalent points cost of a unit of Phosphor Kastelans you net three Destroyers and ~17 Vanguard That's an enormous wound differential and while none of it is at T7, it's also spread across three units. Could be I'm wrong, but on a hunch for the survivability boost of Kastelans I feel I'd rather have the equivalent points spent in Onagers, Vanguards, and Kataphrons. But you are right - none of the above will singularly act as a linebreaker as will the robots. In tandem, however, I give them an edge.
Unrelated - played my escalation games today with the single neutron Onager. Gotta say, the matchups called for it. First game was against two squads of Plague Marines along with Typhus and a MoN Terminator entourage. Talk about target-rich environment. Doubling out to negate FNP and armor really dealt with those stubborn plague marines. Second was against Eldar. Two units of three Scatbikes, Wraithguard with cannons, min unit of spiders, and a Wraithlord. Again - Wraithguard were the target of choice. Lost this game (because he had no gun under S6 mostly), but the Wraithguard didn't live past my first turn.
Okay guys. I know this has been addressed, but does the Emenatus Field rule make squadrons not gakky?
In a recent game I fired a two-vehicle squadron of Neutronagers at a Land Raider and hit, penned, and rolled explodes results for both lasers. The overkill made me super sad, as if they had been split I could've hit the contents with a second shot (instead of melting the land Raider twice).
Unit1126PLL wrote: Okay guys. I know this has been addressed, but does the Emenatus Field rule make squadrons not gakky?
In a recent game I fired a two-vehicle squadron of Neutronagers at a Land Raider and hit, penned, and rolled explodes results for both lasers. The overkill made me super sad, as if they had been split I could've hit the contents with a second shot (instead of melting the land Raider twice).
You're not going to explode a land raider twice every time. Like not even close.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Okay guys. I know this has been addressed, but does the Emenatus Field rule make squadrons not gakky?
In a recent game I fired a two-vehicle squadron of Neutronagers at a Land Raider and hit, penned, and rolled explodes results for both lasers. The overkill made me super sad, as if they had been split I could've hit the contents with a second shot (instead of melting the land Raider twice).
You're not going to explode a land raider twice every time. Like not even close.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Okay guys. I know this has been addressed, but does the Emenatus Field rule make squadrons not gakky?
In a recent game I fired a two-vehicle squadron of Neutronagers at a Land Raider and hit, penned, and rolled explodes results for both lasers. The overkill made me super sad, as if they had been split I could've hit the contents with a second shot (instead of melting the land Raider twice).
You're not going to explode a land raider twice every time. Like not even close.
But then you can just fire both at it anyways!
And crumple if AT guns shoot at the Onager. Long story short, Squadrons make your surviability go through the roof.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Okay guys. I know this has been addressed, but does the Emenatus Field rule make squadrons not gakky?
In a recent game I fired a two-vehicle squadron of Neutronagers at a Land Raider and hit, penned, and rolled explodes results for both lasers. The overkill made me super sad, as if they had been split I could've hit the contents with a second shot (instead of melting the land Raider twice).
You're not going to explode a land raider twice every time. Like not even close.
But then you can just fire both at it anyways!
And crumple if AT guns shoot at the Onager. Long story short, Squadrons make your surviability go through the roof.
My ability to walk through cover while ignoring it meant I had cover most of the game - I made far more 4+ cover saves than I had to roll 5+ invulns for the two-vehicle squadron.
Overkill is a problem, for you and the enemy. Like you said, if you have 2 separate squads then your shooting can be way more effective. In my opinion, I would rather have 3 separate Dunewalkers to fire at different targets, than have a lot of wasted fire and a slightly better invul.
Verv, only thing I'd do to amend that list is drop one of the elite units to flesh out your infantry core. The list is fairly light on model count and Skitarii are far from the most durable of armies.
In other news, a thought occurred to me. As hesitant as I am about Kastelans presently - they would make an excellent bodyguard for the Tech-Priest Dominus (even though we don't know what exactly he brings to the table).
ultimentra wrote: Ditto what Katana says, the cancer armor rules and rolling 6's to wound with the cancer gun are a godsend against everything.
The first part of that, most un-talked about simply amazing rule. Cancer armor rule, as you put it is bonkers powerful, get them into combat with anything, and the rest of your army's assault units go from damaging to absolutely terrifying. One instance would be against anything multiwound T5 like say wraiths, or thunderwolves. Suddenly, all of your dragoon swings are going from 1 wound to instant death... that is HUGE! I have had test games where I threw one of these units into close combat with a deathstar, just so that the rest of my assault units totally wreck that deathstar. Even claw onagers can suddenly be dealing instant death to t6 monstrous creatures...
The Vanguard's cancer gun , in combination with +BS shenanigans with the Doctrines, wrecked my brother's nids. A combination of 5 6's(!) on wounding, plus poor armor saves led to a Mawloc melting to a 5 man unit of Vanguard sitting on a backfield objective.
Comparatively, my ranger's were useless either killing gaunts, or zoanthropes. And arc guns made me wish I had more rad carbines against nids XD.
Overall, the sheer weight of fire was both more effective AND more efficient than even FRFSRF'ing blob guard.
At this point, I'm really waiting on the full Ad Mech dex to see if I could run Vanguard with Castelan's. If I'm not wrong, it should be able to ID Carnifex Broods running that combo >.>
Kanluwen wrote: Verv, have you only been running your Skitarii as a FOC option or have you been using the 'One of everything' Maniple formation?
FOC. I don't consider the benefits of the Battle Maniple formation worth the "every unit" tax. Balistarii are fawful and I would rather run more Vanguard than Rangers.
Kanluwen wrote: Verv, have you only been running your Skitarii as a FOC option or have you been using the 'One of everything' Maniple formation?
FOC. I don't consider the benefits of the Battle Maniple formation worth the "every unit" tax. Balistarii are fawful and I would rather run more Vanguard than Rangers.
You realize that it is Ballistarii OR Dragoon, right?
ultimentra wrote: Ditto what Katana says, the cancer armor rules and rolling 6's to wound with the cancer gun are a godsend against everything.
The first part of that, most un-talked about simply amazing rule. Cancer armor rule, as you put it is bonkers powerful, get them into combat with anything, and the rest of your army's assault units go from damaging to absolutely terrifying. One instance would be against anything multiwound T5 like say wraiths, or thunderwolves. Suddenly, all of your dragoon swings are going from 1 wound to instant death... that is HUGE! I have had test games where I threw one of these units into close combat with a deathstar, just so that the rest of my assault units totally wreck that deathstar. Even claw onagers can suddenly be dealing instant death to t6 monstrous creatures...
kir44n wrote:The Vanguard's cancer gun , in combination with +BS shenanigans with the Doctrines, wrecked my brother's nids. A combination of 5 6's(!) on wounding, plus poor armor saves led to a Mawloc melting to a 5 man unit of Vanguard sitting on a backfield objective.
Comparatively, my ranger's were useless either killing gaunts, or zoanthropes. And arc guns made me wish I had more rad carbines against nids XD.
Overall, the sheer weight of fire was both more effective AND more efficient than even FRFSRF'ing blob guard.
At this point, I'm really waiting on the full Ad Mech dex to see if I could run Vanguard with Castelan's. If I'm not wrong, it should be able to ID Carnifex Broods running that combo >.>
Glad I'm not the only person on the Vanguard hype train. I owe the nomenclature of "cancer gun" and "cancer armor" to Reecius from one of his vids.
I'm leaning less and less towards vanguard, and little to no Rangers. They just don't seem to be able to carry their weight. Maybe they'll shine against some xenos for me some game, but I'm seriously considering grabbing 2 more boxes of Vanguard next paycheck.
One thought I'm having is Skitarii will have a tough time filling out higher points games without using multiple formations or CADS. Depending on your area this may limit you a bit. Sometimes I can see it being detrimental to max out squadrons or unit sizes in bigger games where they are more likely to get blown off the table in 1 turn.
Det Thyge wrote: Say I got a box of Vanguard/Ranger, what is the first unit I should build?
From what I can gather, a 10 man squad with 3 plasma calivers is the way to go. Is that far off? A what gear should the 'sergeant' have?
Three Arc rifles over Calivers, I'd say. Although one box only nets you one of each special weapon. I leave my sergeants naked.
Okay, so here's an issue I'm having.
Can you actually just leave standard rifles on the Alphas or do they have to take weapons? The wording suggests more that they have to take melee/ranged weapons but I just am not sure yet.
Det Thyge wrote: Say I got a box of Vanguard/Ranger, what is the first unit I should build?
From what I can gather, a 10 man squad with 3 plasma calivers is the way to go. Is that far off? A what gear should the 'sergeant' have?
Three Arc rifles over Calivers, I'd say. Although one box only nets you one of each special weapon. I leave my sergeants naked.
Okay, so here's an issue I'm having.
Can you actually just leave standard rifles on the Alphas or do they have to take weapons? The wording suggests more that they have to take melee/ranged weapons but I just am not sure yet.
Without my codex on me, I believe they can stick with stock weapons (the kit certainly allows such a build).
Super Newb wrote: The kit has 10 rifles and 10 rad carbines. So both Rangers and Vanguard can be built with 10 guys all with stock weapon.
The alpha doesn't need to upgrade and can be taken with the stock gun.
There is 1 rifle and one carbine each that are made to be held 1 handed. So you can put an Omnispex in the other hand. This is the best build.
Omnispex is good, yeah. I was just pointing out that the kit has enough for everyone in the squad to field the stock guns. The one handed rifle could be paired with an empty pointing arm if someone wants to do that for some reason.
The 'best' build is really 3 arc rifles, 1 omnispex, 5 stock dudes and 1 stock alpha.
Det Thyge wrote: Say I got a box of Vanguard/Ranger, what is the first unit I should build?
From what I can gather, a 10 man squad with 3 plasma calivers is the way to go. Is that far off? A what gear should the 'sergeant' have?
Three Arc rifles over Calivers, I'd say. Although one box only nets you one of each special weapon. I leave my sergeants naked.
Okay, so here's an issue I'm having.
Can you actually just leave standard rifles on the Alphas or do they have to take weapons? The wording suggests more that they have to take melee/ranged weapons but I just am not sure yet.
RAW yes. It only states that you 'may' replace the stock gun, not that you must.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Plasma on the vanguard unit is good if that unit has the alpha warlord for preferred enemy. Otherwise its a bit risky
Not to mention oppressively expensive. It had a debatable place in the army until we saw the typhoon of AP3/2 Cult Mechanicus can offer, now I can't see it ever being justifiable.
Super Newb wrote: The kit has 10 rifles and 10 rad carbines. So both Rangers and Vanguard can be built with 10 guys all with stock weapon.
The alpha doesn't need to upgrade and can be taken with the stock gun.
There is 1 rifle and one carbine each that are made to be held 1 handed. So you can put an Omnispex in the other hand. This is the best build.
Omnispex is good, yeah. I was just pointing out that the kit has enough for everyone in the squad to field the stock guns. The one handed rifle could be paired with an empty pointing arm if someone wants to do that for some reason.
The 'best' build is really 3 arc rifles, 1 omnispex, 5 stock dudes and 1 stock alpha.
I thought the omnispex needed to be on the alpha. does it go to a stock dude?
I would say go for a 3-Arc 10 man Vanguard, a 3-Plasma 10 man vanguard, both with omnispexes, and two 5-man rangers to camp backfield, arquebusses (arquebi?) optional.
Det Thyge wrote: This is 500 right on the button:
5 Rangers with 2 arquebi and Omnispex
10 Vanguard with 3 Arc Rifles, Omnispex and Conversion Field
10 Vandguard with 3 Plasma Caliver, Omnispex and Conversion Field.
OR
10 Vanguard with 3 Arc Rifles, Omnispex and Conversion Field
10 Vandguard with 3 Plasma Caliver, Omnispex and Conversion Field
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
WrentheFaceless wrote: Plasma on the vanguard unit is good if that unit has the alpha warlord for preferred enemy. Otherwise its a bit risky
Not to mention oppressively expensive. It had a debatable place in the army until we saw the typhoon of AP3/2 Cult Mechanicus can offer, now I can't see it ever being justifiable.
Yea stock Vanguard with an omnispex are looking good after seeing how much low ap grav shots the Kataphron destroyers can put out.
Question, as I don't have the White Dwarf with the rules in, what is the difference between the Destroyers and the Breachers? I assume different weapon choices?
Kanluwen wrote: For me it's simply the fact that it does not say "The Ranger/Vanguard Alpha may replace their X with options from the Melee and Ranged Weapon lists".
Those lists tell you what to replace on that page with the lists themselves. In the ranged weapon list it says something like a model may replace their ranged weapon with one of the following. Under the melee list it doesn't say replace just to take one of the options.
Decay wrote: Question, as I don't have the White Dwarf with the rules in, what is the difference between the Destroyers and the Breachers? I assume different weapon choices?
Destroyers are 4+ Armor, have a secondary gun (either a Flamer or Bolter equivalent with special rules), and their main guns are either Plasma Cannons or 6 shot Grav Guns
Breachers are 3+ and have a CCW instead of a second gun. Their main guns are either a two shot Haywire gun or a S8 AP2 gun that deals 1d3 HP or Wounds instead of 1.
Kanluwen wrote: For me it's simply the fact that it does not say "The Ranger/Vanguard Alpha may replace their X with options from the Melee and Ranged Weapon lists".
Erm, it does it say that. The entry reads:
*May select up to five additional Skitarii Vanguard.......points
*The Vanguard(/Ranger) Alpha may take items from the Ranged Weapons, Melee Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and Relics of Mars lists.
etc
And the lists specify whether you have to replace an existing weapon(Ranged) or take it in addition to your basic weapon(everything else).
It's definitely a choice, no ambiguity.
As for the main topic atm; I have to agree with the general consensus; Vanguard blow Rangers out of the water, and in a combined Skitter/CultMech list Arc-Vanguard are the way to go. All-Caliver Vanguard are useful in a pure Skitarii list, or in smaller unit sizes for pod-related Ally shenanigans, but otherwise I'll be running two Arc Rifles and eight "cancer carbines"(lovely, hah) per-squad and relying on Grav-Cents, Grav-Phrons, Plasma-Phrons, Kastelans etc for AP firepower.
I still think one squad of plasma vanguard is fine even with allies. 9 plasma shots at BS7 on the first turn, with 7 ablative wounds is nothing to sneeze at.
Super Newb wrote: I still think one squad of plasma vanguard is fine even with allies. 9 plasma shots at BS7 on the first turn, with 7 ablative wounds is nothing to sneeze at.
For 200pts, it is. The equivalent in Kataphrons is 24 grav shots. Granted at BS3, but with only two less wounds overall at a higher toughness and longer range. Suspending knowledge of the Canticles of the Omnissiah, I'll still elect for Kataphrons for the raw damage output, or Kastelans for an in-between.
Two wounds and you lose 6 grav shots. Two wounds on skitarii and you still have 9 plasma shots. Oh yeah, speaking of those 7 other squad members, let's not forget the 21 rad carbine shots that come with that as well.
Plasma Vanguard are pricey and I'm not saying to spam them but they compare more favorably to the Cult Mechanicus tank tread guys than how you characterized them.
Super Newb wrote: Two wounds and you lose 6 grav shots. Two wounds on skitarii and you still have 9 plasma shots. Oh yeah, speaking of those 7 other squad members, let's not forget the 21 rad carbine shots that come with that as well.
Plasma Vanguard are pricey and I'm not saying to spam them but they compare more favorably to the Cult Mechanicus tank tread guys than how you characterized them.
Hardly. Because taking two wounds on Vanguard is much easier than taking two wounds on Kataphrons. +2 Toughness and +12'' range does a world of good for survivability. Even more if only a single wound is suffered, or shots come from varying directions. I won't deny that Vanguard have their place in AdMech armies - lord knows I've advocated them often enough - but carrying plasma guns isn't it.
But two wounds on vanguard barely changes their offensive power. They have 8 ablative wounds (sarge has two wounds)!!! The other guys, no.
Vanguard are T3 with a 4+ save and a let's not forget a lame fnp roll as well. The other guys are T5 with a 4+ save. It's not a big difference when two measly wounds from the same direction kills one of your special weapons - something that would not happen when vanguard take their initial two wounds.
Except that you need to factor in other limitations like pod space and that ballistic skill as well as -1 cover save. After factoring everything in I am more of a fan of the vanguard at present. Will have to see
If there is one thing that the kataphrons do amazingly well, is draw attention away from basically everything else... hahaha Most people will see "how many grav shots you say?!" and think "forget the little guys with cancer guns, MUST KILL ATTACKTRON" I see that happening in many games. This is why, unless there is some really cool stuff the HQs can get, I never see kats running in larger squads than 3, just not worth the extra points for what is likely a bullet sponge.
Ironically, this is exactly what skitarii needs as nothing they have is very survivable and anything that takes attention off of their glass cannon units is welcome.
(Finally coming back out of a year-long lurking...)
Thoughts on Elysian droptroops allied in to Skitarii? Similar to drop-pod but fluffier, with turn 1 Valks deepstriking in hover mode, disembark, shoot. (I believe that's still a thing - I haven't checked my Elysian FW book in a while...) Droptroops also provide plenty of enemy deployment area target saturation which hopefully distracts alpha striking armies from Vanguard and Sicarians advancing up the board T1 for their T2 charges.
Also, here's a quick 1850 Skitarii-Knight list I also pulled out, shooty-heavy. Thoughts?
Super Newb wrote: But two wounds on vanguard barely changes their offensive power. They have 8 ablative wounds (sarge has two wounds)!!! The other guys, no.
Vanguard are T3 with a 4+ save and a let's not forget a lame fnp roll as well. The other guys are T5 with a 4+ save. It's not a big difference when two measly wounds from the same direction kills one of your special weapons - something that would not happen when vanguard take their initial two wounds.
My point is it's closer than you think.
What is closer? Their survivability? Variable upon type of weapon and range. Kataphron are immensely more durable against small arms fire, Vanguard more so to high strength / low AP. Kataphron are more durable to blast weapons due to base size, Vanguard do better when the range shortens up and assaults are threatened. Yet when I look at the stats on both and my own experience fielding the Skitarii thus far - I shun the very notion of plasma on Vanguard. Where Kataphrons take two, Vanguards take five or more. Where Vanguard need the 18'' marker to unload, Kataphron do so from 30'' back. When Vanguard hit something T7, Kataphron hit it harder. When Kataphron hit T5 and below, Vanguard hit it harder - this I grant - but at a dangerous range, on a flimsy platform, with a volatile weapon. I won't judge the Vanguards alongside Doctrinas without accounting for Canticles of the Omnissiah or formations - the former we don't know and the latter has already been rumored to send Kataphrons through the roof.
Could be it's closer than I think - but what I've seen both on the table and off has me yearning for two squads of Kataphrons if not three, shielded by Arc Rifle Vanguard and Onager support. Every Caliver I don't take is three and a third more Vanguard that I do.
Ehhh, I assault with my army and so having that -1 toughness is pretty huge for me, especially against things like wraith knight. In addition having 9 point LOS wounds for my units is quite nice. Also those rad guns do work, seriously it is pretty impressive
I don't think there is a clear cut case of x is better than y. They both have very different roles within a list. If I am looking for a prodded sacrifice squad, vanguard are the way to go. I need the unit to show up, do so,etching and then it is going to die, regardless of how durable it is. However one thing the Kaphs have is that they can fit into things like a bunker or bastion, greatly increasing their protection and ability to fire. Trade offs really.
Leth wrote: Ehhh, I assault with my army and so having that -1 toughness is pretty huge for me, especially against things like wraith knight. In addition having 9 point LOS wounds for my units is quite nice. Also those rad guns do work, seriously it is pretty impressive
I don't think there is a clear cut case of x is better than y. They both have very different roles within a list. If I am looking for a prodded sacrifice squad, vanguard are the way to go. I need the unit to show up, do so,etching and then it is going to die, regardless of how durable it is. However one thing the Kaphs have is that they can fit into things like a bunker or bastion, greatly increasing their protection and ability to fire. Trade offs really.
I'm not saying Vanguard or Kataphrons are the better unit. I'm saying Kataphrons are the better AP2 platform.
Another question, about allies this time. I've already made a Skitarii force of 600 pts, but I wanted to increase this to 1250pts via the use of DA allies. I was wondering if the Ravenwing are effective allies for the Skitarii and does the fact that they are on bike help the Skitarii secure back field objectives and make a better strike force?
Decay wrote: Another question, about allies this time. I've already made a Skitarii force of 600 pts, but I wanted to increase this to 1250pts via the use of DA allies. I was wondering if the Ravenwing are effective allies for the Skitarii and does the fact that they are on bike help the Skitarii secure back field objectives and make a better strike force?
This is what I'm playing. If you're looking for board control, Scout and Crusader mean they dominate the mid-field. Bikes also scout and are in your opponent's deployment zone on the second turn and they can't leave. This prevents your opponent from scoring Progressive/Maelstrom objectives. I got tabled by a null-deployment drop pod list tho.
I'm also trying Rustalkers in a Land Raider. It's fun but probably not worth the points.
So I was thinking a combined detachment to go with the Maniple and taking Sammael as a HQ, or is he too expensive at a 1250pts level? I was just taking him so that Ravenwing Attack squads are Troops and so that I could take a Ravenwing Command Squad
Decay wrote: So I was thinking a combined detachment to go with the Maniple and taking Sammael as a HQ, or is he too expensive at a 1250pts level? I was just taking him so that Ravenwing Attack squads are Troops and so that I could take a Ravenwing Command Squad
Decay wrote: Another question, about allies this time. I've already made a Skitarii force of 600 pts, but I wanted to increase this to 1250pts via the use of DA allies. I was wondering if the Ravenwing are effective allies for the Skitarii and does the fact that they are on bike help the Skitarii secure back field objectives and make a better strike force?
This is what I'm playing. If you're looking for board control, Scout and Crusader mean they dominate the mid-field. Bikes also scout and are in your opponent's deployment zone on the second turn and they can't leave. This prevents your opponent from scoring Progressive/Maelstrom objectives. I got tabled by a null-deployment drop pod list tho.
I'm also trying Rustalkers in a Land Raider. It's fun but probably not worth the points.
That's not really the Ruststalkers' fault so much as it is Land Raiders almost never being worthwhile.
Giving:
- Canticles of the Omnissiah to ALL units
- Ignores Gets Hot rule
- Reroll WT on the Dominus if its the Warlord
- All Cult Mechanicus/Skitarii relics are FREE
Mind, these are all French translations, but holy hell, that is perhaps the most OP formation I've seen, and is clearly a must-take if you're playing a pure Adeptus Mechanicus army.
Edit:
P.S. Volkite weapons are in, with the exact same statline as their HH counterparts.
What!!? That Relic thing seems too OP to be even dreamed of, the possibilities of that are endless, now that they could have every relic. Phosphoenix would be even more of a no brainier, Nikolai's skull would be used in my force even more. The Phase Tazer on Infiltrators and so much more. Even the ignores Get Hot is a huge bonus for the plasma Calivers as any threat of killing your own men is gone! I'm not sure what Canticles still does, but from the rumors that does sound just as good.
Decay wrote: What!!? That Relic thing seems too OP to be even dreamed of, the possibilities of that are endless, now that they could have every relic. Phosphoenix would be even more of a no brainier, Nikolai's skull would be used in my force even more. The Phase Tazer on Infiltrators and so much more. Even the ignores Get Hot is a huge bonus for the plasma Calivers as any threat of killing your own men is gone! I'm not sure what Canticles still does, but from the rumors that does sound just as good.
we need to see the english wording, but it also looks like all upgrades are free.
The Skitarii + Knight detachments are already sitting at 1k points. I doubt GW would give out all free upgrades and options, that's a little bit too ridiculous. Like, almost Matt Ward-level ridiculous.l But we'll wait to see the English translations.
(Can't say I'm not hoping for all options free though, but I'll settle for all relics too )
Yeah, I'm just about to get a knight a mix with my mech armies and I was wondering which variant should I make? I was thinking Paladin or Errant, but what would be best?
Decay wrote: Yeah, I'm just about to get a knight a mix with my mech armies and I was wondering which variant should I make? I was thinking Paladin or Errant, but what would be best?
Ah yes! I'd forgotten about the Crusader (My codex is coming with the Knight) that only leaves the problem of the Thermal Cannon, or the Battle Cannon. I like the Battle Cannon as it has much versitility in my opinion.
Well, I don't mind any Knight, but i was just thinking about how it should have the Autocannons on the top, so that it can support the Skitarii by being an AA platform as well as a heck load of guns.
The Knight makes an awful AA platform. Use your Onagers for that. Keep a stormspear on top to add to the number of things you can charge.
I'm still debating between a Warden, a Paladin, or a Crusader for my own AdMech army. The plan is the same, charge it up the middle to draw fire and cause mass havoc. The problem is that a Crusader with stomp still does pretty well compared to a Paladin, and the extra gun IMHO gives it more utility on the first two turns before it gets stuck in.
Between the Thermal Cannon and Battle Cannon, I'd almost always go with Battle Cannon for sheer AP3 gibbing pie plate goodness. You've enough anti-tank to not need a melta platform (that goes with the meltagun upgrade too) in the form of arc guns, grav guns, taser lances, onagers with neutron lasers, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Translation of the rules from a native French speaker over at Bolter & Chainsword
Bolter & Chainsword's snoopy wrote:
Ok Guyz, a translation for you from a frenchy smile.png
- Alpha-Dominus : If the Tech-Priest of the formation is the Warlord, you can reroll your warlord traits on the Cult Mechanicus Table
- Puissance de l'adeptus mechanicus : Options which can be bought by models of this formation (relics of March, & Arcana mechanicum include) are free. Furthermore, weapons with the rule "get hot" of this formation lose this rule.
Don't see much use to the Volkite weapon myself, if it replaces the Eradication Beamer. Dominus walking around firing S6 AP3 blasts is sexy. Might field some of the Fulgurite Priests - Instant death can never be underestimated. Just depends on their points cost. Thoughts?
Automatically Appended Next Post: 5 Priests for 90 is the revealed cost. 18ppm is overbearingly expensive imo.
So, if I wanted to run this new formation, this means I have to buy, in addition to the Skitarri codex, the cult mechanicus codex and the imperial knights codex? As well as the White Dwarf, correct? Also, how cheese will this honestly be in comparison to other armies? I like the AdMech stuff, and this formation seems to allow me to take one of everything, for a pretty cool looking army, but if my opponent is gonna have too miserable of a time, I might pass...
I bet it is, and hope it is, as running one of everything sounds fun...but dang that formation bonus seems too good.
Honestly, only being able to take one of each unit (so no spamming) will balance out the free stuff, I hope. I originally thought being able to spam plasma calivers that don't get hot would be too good, but iirc there's only the rangers that can take them? Maybe the vanguard? So that's only 6 at the max?
greenbay924 wrote: I bet it is, and hope it is, as running one of everything sounds fun...but dang that formation bonus seems too good.
Honestly, only being able to take one of each unit (so no spamming) will balance out the free stuff, I hope. I originally thought being able to spam plasma calivers that don't get hot would be too good, but iirc there's only the rangers that can take them? Maybe the vanguard? So that's only 6 at the max?
Rangers/vanguard can take them, Kataphrons can take the heavier plasma guns.
TranSpyre wrote: Where does it say you can only have one of each unit?
I'm reading that you take a regular Maniple as part of the detachment, which means only 2 troops are mandatory.
There's a difference between the Skitarii Maniple and the Battle Maniple, they just decided to name them the same thing so it was extra confusing. The former is the 2 Troop minimum FOC, the latter is a Formation.
What do you guys think of the electro priests? Models look great, and I'm thinking of some head swaps to make them even better. Which variant looks better t you? I know they've been called the worst unit in the codex, but I like the look too much...
We will have to wait and see for the whole picture, I was skeptical about the skitarii until I saw the doctrinas. It will be interesting to see if they will play a role. Really want to work my onagers into a list but it is just so tight on points.... Maybe save them for less competitive armies
Decay wrote: Which Kastelan loadout is the best one? I've only just realized that the Protector protocol only allows then to fire their shoulder weapon twice.
I'm still of the opinion that as much S6 AP3 as you can get is best. Sure, power fists put you at S10, but you're already S6 AP2 in Assault so more shooting is probably the better way to go.
That's what I thought, it's just that the rule for the Protecter protocol is not clearly worded and does not state wether they can still fir their hand weapons, but I believe that they still can, or should.
Decay wrote: Which Kastelan loadout is the best one? I've only just realized that the Protector protocol only allows then to fire their shoulder weapon twice.
I'm still of the opinion that as much S6 AP3 as you can get is best. Sure, power fists put you at S10, but you're already S6 AP2 in Assault so more shooting is probably the better way to go.
I've mulled this over and I also agree with this.
Also remember you can smash for a single s10 attack and you have the datasmith who gives additional str6 powerfist attacks.
18 str6 ap3 shots from them is nothing to sneeze at (6 of them TL), especially from a group that can stand in the middle of the field and soak shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Decay wrote: That's what I thought, it's just that the rule for the Protecter protocol is not clearly worded and does not state wether they can still fir their hand weapons, but I believe that they still can, or should.
From their wording, yes they should be able to fire everything and their top mounted twice.
I'm going to vehemently agree on the Kastelan loadout, all-Phosphor is the way to go, there's just too few situations in which the powerfists would be necessary for them to be worth the opportunity cost of not having the extra TL'd Phosphor shots.
If it's accurate, I'll probably end up using the Cybernetica formation; 5 'bots, 2 Datasmiths, and a Magos in a combined unit(one of my bots will be going Flamer/Phosphor, purely so I can use my FW Castellax model with Mauler/Fistflamers). Give the Magos the Eradication Beam and you have a unit that, at 24" with Protector Protocols active, puts out 30 S6 AP3 regular shots, 15 S6 AP3 Twin-Linked shots, and a S6 AP3 Blast, and the formation rules let you split fire as you wish so no ridiculous overkill.
Is it just me or is the War Convocation looking sub-par? I understand that the free upgrades are excellent in theory, but forcing the formation into a small game appears to gimp the army by forcing very easily killed MSU.
I see no use in free weapons when survivability upgrades are limited to Conversion Fields and Refractor Fields, and units are easily wiped even with the small inv save those things give.
I suppose I will have to see the Arcana Mechanicum list and Canticles to fully judge the formation.
Verviedi wrote: Is it just me or is the War Convocation looking sub-par? I understand that the free upgrades are excellent in theory, but forcing the formation into a small game appears to gimp the army by forcing very easily killed MSU.
I see no use in free weapons when survivability upgrades are limited to Conversion Fields and Refractor Fields, and units are easily wiped even with the small inv save those things give.
I suppose I will have to see the Arcana Mechanicum list and Canticles to fully judge the formation.
That depends on the game size, I suppose. I think at 1850, it'll be a tight fight. At 2000 points is the sweet spot.
Verviedi wrote: Is it just me or is the War Convocation looking sub-par? I understand that the free upgrades are excellent in theory, but forcing the formation into a small game appears to gimp the army by forcing very easily killed MSU.
I see no use in free weapons when survivability upgrades are limited to Conversion Fields and Refractor Fields, and units are easily wiped even with the small inv save those things give.
I suppose I will have to see the Arcana Mechanicum list and Canticles to fully judge the formation.
I'd use it at about the 1750-1850pt level. It can very easily give a several-hundred-point advantage.
That's true. You're looking at around 600+ points of wargear. A lot of people are dismissing the "tax" of "one-of-everything" in the Skitarii formation. I personally am of the opinion that it simply requires you to play smart, since you can't spam any particular one thing.
The sense I'm getting from watching batreps and reading forum posts about the Skitarii are that they're meant to be played as a very cohesive force, with each unit acting as a force multiplier for another unit. From a design standpoint (presuming to think as a GW designer), this makes sense since all the books posit every unit as a "cog in the greater machine".
So I'm thinking of taking a combo of Cult and Skitarii forces to supplement my Dark Angels. I'm torn between the Cohort Cybernetica and Elimination Maniple.
Cohort Cybernetica. The Elimination Maniple is a little underwhelming now that it's been revealed that you need to have wounded/pen'd the target in order for the +1BS/Ignores Cover to work. On the other hand, Cohort was additionally revealed that your programming comes into effect immediately, rather than the next turn. Combined with the fact that they are one unit, slap the IWND relic on one of the tech priests and you have a neigh-unkillable shooty unit with tons of AP3.
Enigwolf wrote: Cohort Cybernetica. The Elimination Maniple is a little underwhelming now that it's been revealed that you need to have wounded/pen'd the target in order for the +1BS/Ignores Cover to work. On the other hand, Cohort was additionally revealed that your programming comes into effect immediately, rather than the next turn. Combined with the fact that they are one unit, slap the IWND relic on one of the tech priests and you have a neigh-unkillable shooty unit with tons of AP3.
There's a Relic which does the same thing as the Cohort bonus; it just forces you to discard the previous Program for the remainder of the game.
The problem I am having right now is that even at MSU, the Cult Mechanicus "half" of what will obviously be one big book down the road, is so pricey that taking anything quickly over-takes your other faction in points.
I still think the Elimination Maniple is crazy good, and if used early with the Canticles which buffs shooting re-rolls, you have very good odds of plinking a bike off the table, and then letting Kataphron absolutely sweep the entire unit off the table. Especially if prior Lumingen, or an Auspex are taken into consideration.
The problem is, an Allied Cult Mechanicus detachment, with a MSU Elmination Maniple, is 920 points. If you're playing at 1500pts, that doesn't leave a lot let for Skitarii, etc...
To hit 1500pts, I feel like I can just barely cram in my 3, Arc Rifle units, and Flesh Tearer Blood Angels, to get them Pods.
The result is an army that has just the silliest shooting alpha strike in the history of 40k, but had damn well better take out every one of the opponents serious threats, as it will fold to a swift breeze. :-p
Enigwolf wrote: Cohort Cybernetica. The Elimination Maniple is a little underwhelming now that it's been revealed that you need to have wounded/pen'd the target in order for the +1BS/Ignores Cover to work. On the other hand, Cohort was additionally revealed that your programming comes into effect immediately, rather than the next turn. Combined with the fact that they are one unit, slap the IWND relic on one of the tech priests and you have a neigh-unkillable shooty unit with tons of AP3.
There's a Relic which does the same thing as the Cohort bonus; it just forces you to discard the previous Program for the remainder of the game.
Which isn't exactly ideal if you want tons of dakka-dakka without overkill. There's no downside to doing the Cohort Cybernetica minus the Tech Priest Dominus tax (though, given that he functions like a datasmith and can get a Str 6 AP3 blast from his Eradication Ray, isn't really a tax). Cohort Cybernetica also has splitfire for the number of models equal to the number of datasmiths. So a min-sized Cohort would have 4 'bots, 2 datasmiths, 1 Dominus. Everyone can fire at a different target! Slap IWND on the whole formation (they're one unit), and you have a very solid, dependable, dakka-dakka firebase that can literally march up the middle and present a huge threat on T2/3.
Enigwolf wrote: Cohort Cybernetica. The Elimination Maniple is a little underwhelming now that it's been revealed that you need to have wounded/pen'd the target in order for the +1BS/Ignores Cover to work. On the other hand, Cohort was additionally revealed that your programming comes into effect immediately, rather than the next turn. Combined with the fact that they are one unit, slap the IWND relic on one of the tech priests and you have a neigh-unkillable shooty unit with tons of AP3.
I'd definitely be using it for higher point games, I think in lower points I'd be using mechanized Skitarii more, the cohort would definitely be footslogging with my main gunline and reducing cover saves everywhere for them. But I think the elimination maniple would be a bit cheaper.
Also where can I find the rules for new relics? I haven't been able to find any of them.
The more I think about the rules for these guys, the quicker my enthusiasm fades.
Destroyers are a shooting powerhouse, yes. But, they're extremely fragile. A 55point unit that only has a 4+? My Necron Heavy Destroyers are 50 points with 3+ and RP. 6 shot Grav guns are great.... except against anything less armored than a Space Marine. Then they're pretty mediocre at shooting with their BS3.
Breachers are cheaper, but with the revelation that the Formation isn't just "perfect deep strike" and requires you to clump up around an Objective, they quickly faded in my mind. BS3 1 shot guns are fine when you have a crap ton of them, like on Tau or Guard or Termagants. On a 50 point model that you can't really "spam"? That's pretty bad.
Priests of both varieties are pretty trash, but at 90 points per unit being the cheapest in the codex (gross) you're basically forced to take them to MSU up for the Canticles to get to higher levels. And even then, they boosts don't make up for how bad they are.
Robots and the Dominus have the best rules in the book by far, but the Robots are so, so expensive. It's clear that the rules were designed to run Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus together, because CM by itself is basically mid to low-mid tier in my book. Lots of expensive models whose rules are great in certain situations and terrible in others.
Making a full on CM list is like suicide. Your Troops to spam are expensive and not precisely durable for their price. T5 W2 is great... 4+ armor on a 55 point model is not. Breachers somewhat make up for it with their 3+ and cheaper price, but their offensive capability is significantly worse. So either you end up with an elite list of expensive models (Kataphrons + Robots, small model count with high prices), or you shell out to have lots of Priests on the table which are bad.
CM is only best run when you have Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard as your "bread and butter" backbone to the army, with Kataphrons and Robots bringing heavy weapons, rather than being spammed. Or replace Skitarii with other Imperium armies, like Marines. Basically, CM by itself feels like a poor man's version of other factions doing "low model count elite armies", without nearly as good of a payoff, and you need to run it with Allies to be worthwhile.
I kind of want to start an AdMech army and buy both books, but if there is a true combined AdMech army book in the future I really, really don't want to spend the money now. Which sucks for GW, because a week ago I was ready to run out and just impulse buy a lot of models, but with the rules being the way they are to match, it's burnt out my enthusiasm.
Requizen wrote: The more I think about the rules for these guys, the quicker my enthusiasm fades.
Destroyers are a shooting powerhouse, yes. But, they're extremely fragile. A 55point unit that only has a 4+? My Necron Heavy Destroyers are 50 points with 3+ and RP. 6 shot Grav guns are great.... except against anything less armored than a Space Marine. Then they're pretty mediocre at shooting with their BS3.
Breachers are cheaper, but with the revelation that the Formation isn't just "perfect deep strike" and requires you to clump up around an Objective, they quickly faded in my mind. BS3 1 shot guns are fine when you have a crap ton of them, like on Tau or Guard or Termagants. On a 50 point model that you can't really "spam"? That's pretty bad.
Priests of both varieties are pretty trash, but at 90 points per unit being the cheapest in the codex (gross) you're basically forced to take them to MSU up for the Canticles to get to higher levels. And even then, they boosts don't make up for how bad they are.
Robots and the Dominus have the best rules in the book by far, but the Robots are so, so expensive. It's clear that the rules were designed to run Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus together, because CM by itself is basically mid to low-mid tier in my book. Lots of expensive models whose rules are great in certain situations and terrible in others.
Making a full on CM list is like suicide. Your Troops to spam are expensive and not precisely durable for their price. T5 W2 is great... 4+ armor on a 55 point model is not. Breachers somewhat make up for it with their 3+ and cheaper price, but their offensive capability is significantly worse. So either you end up with an elite list of expensive models (Kataphrons + Robots, small model count with high prices), or you shell out to have lots of Priests on the table which are bad.
CM is only best run when you have Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard as your "bread and butter" backbone to the army, with Kataphrons and Robots bringing heavy weapons, rather than being spammed. Or replace Skitarii with other Imperium armies, like Marines. Basically, CM by itself feels like a poor man's version of other factions doing "low model count elite armies", without nearly as good of a payoff, and you need to run it with Allies to be worthwhile.
I kind of want to start an AdMech army and buy both books, but if there is a true combined AdMech army book in the future I really, really don't want to spend the money now. Which sucks for GW, because a week ago I was ready to run out and just impulse buy a lot of models, but with the rules being the way they are to match, it's burnt out my enthusiasm.
I agree pretty well with almost everything you've said here. I don't think that the Kataphrons are that bad. Yes, they're not "let's spam a ton"-able, but they provide a pretty durable Troops choice. If it's one thing CM can do very, very well, it's provide tons of heavy weapons. The entire Troops choice carry the Heavy/Special weapon equivalent of other armies as standard, unlike other armies like Marines where your average Troops-choice weapon (bolter) is pretty much average against anything but IG and 'nid blobs, in comparison to Tau/Eldar/Necron/Skitarii basic weapons.
At the end of the day, I love AdMech too much that I'm still going to splurge on it, but to each their own, of course, and I know if there's a combined book in the future, I'm getting it. However, the way the 'dexes are being released now, it seems (in small bits and pieces), I don't think we're going to see a combined book anytime soon.
Requizen wrote: The more I think about the rules for these guys, the quicker my enthusiasm fades.
Destroyers are a shooting powerhouse, yes. But, they're extremely fragile. A 55point unit that only has a 4+? My Necron Heavy Destroyers are 50 points with 3+ and RP. 6 shot Grav guns are great.... except against anything less armored than a Space Marine. Then they're pretty mediocre at shooting with their BS3.
Breachers are cheaper, but with the revelation that the Formation isn't just "perfect deep strike" and requires you to clump up around an Objective, they quickly faded in my mind. BS3 1 shot guns are fine when you have a crap ton of them, like on Tau or Guard or Termagants. On a 50 point model that you can't really "spam"? That's pretty bad.
Priests of both varieties are pretty trash, but at 90 points per unit being the cheapest in the codex (gross) you're basically forced to take them to MSU up for the Canticles to get to higher levels. And even then, they boosts don't make up for how bad they are.
Robots and the Dominus have the best rules in the book by far, but the Robots are so, so expensive. It's clear that the rules were designed to run Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus together, because CM by itself is basically mid to low-mid tier in my book. Lots of expensive models whose rules are great in certain situations and terrible in others.
Making a full on CM list is like suicide. Your Troops to spam are expensive and not precisely durable for their price. T5 W2 is great... 4+ armor on a 55 point model is not. Breachers somewhat make up for it with their 3+ and cheaper price, but their offensive capability is significantly worse. So either you end up with an elite list of expensive models (Kataphrons + Robots, small model count with high prices), or you shell out to have lots of Priests on the table which are bad.
CM is only best run when you have Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard as your "bread and butter" backbone to the army, with Kataphrons and Robots bringing heavy weapons, rather than being spammed. Or replace Skitarii with other Imperium armies, like Marines. Basically, CM by itself feels like a poor man's version of other factions doing "low model count elite armies", without nearly as good of a payoff, and you need to run it with Allies to be worthwhile.
I kind of want to start an AdMech army and buy both books, but if there is a true combined AdMech army book in the future I really, really don't want to spend the money now. Which sucks for GW, because a week ago I was ready to run out and just impulse buy a lot of models, but with the rules being the way they are to match, it's burnt out my enthusiasm.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few points, you might be overlooking the effectiveness of the canticles. Also I think Electro Priests are pretty decent, the melee ones need a transport to work best, but once they wipe a unit out, they're pretty tough save wise, a blob of the shooty guys would be getting lots of shots with re-rolls and the massed shots would force a lot of wounds against t3 units.
But I do agree that this army does seem better as an ally, I'd definitely use more of them in bigger point games but probably in a few formations. Their HQ is great and cheap for what it does as well.
Requizen wrote: The more I think about the rules for these guys, the quicker my enthusiasm fades.
Destroyers are a shooting powerhouse, yes. But, they're extremely fragile. A 55point unit that only has a 4+? My Necron Heavy Destroyers are 50 points with 3+ and RP. 6 shot Grav guns are great.... except against anything less armored than a Space Marine. Then they're pretty mediocre at shooting with their BS3.
Breachers are cheaper, but with the revelation that the Formation isn't just "perfect deep strike" and requires you to clump up around an Objective, they quickly faded in my mind. BS3 1 shot guns are fine when you have a crap ton of them, like on Tau or Guard or Termagants. On a 50 point model that you can't really "spam"? That's pretty bad.
Priests of both varieties are pretty trash, but at 90 points per unit being the cheapest in the codex (gross) you're basically forced to take them to MSU up for the Canticles to get to higher levels. And even then, they boosts don't make up for how bad they are.
Robots and the Dominus have the best rules in the book by far, but the Robots are so, so expensive. It's clear that the rules were designed to run Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus together, because CM by itself is basically mid to low-mid tier in my book. Lots of expensive models whose rules are great in certain situations and terrible in others.
Making a full on CM list is like suicide. Your Troops to spam are expensive and not precisely durable for their price. T5 W2 is great... 4+ armor on a 55 point model is not. Breachers somewhat make up for it with their 3+ and cheaper price, but their offensive capability is significantly worse. So either you end up with an elite list of expensive models (Kataphrons + Robots, small model count with high prices), or you shell out to have lots of Priests on the table which are bad.
CM is only best run when you have Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard as your "bread and butter" backbone to the army, with Kataphrons and Robots bringing heavy weapons, rather than being spammed. Or replace Skitarii with other Imperium armies, like Marines. Basically, CM by itself feels like a poor man's version of other factions doing "low model count elite armies", without nearly as good of a payoff, and you need to run it with Allies to be worthwhile.
I kind of want to start an AdMech army and buy both books, but if there is a true combined AdMech army book in the future I really, really don't want to spend the money now. Which sucks for GW, because a week ago I was ready to run out and just impulse buy a lot of models, but with the rules being the way they are to match, it's burnt out my enthusiasm.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few points, you might be overlooking the effectiveness of the canticles. Also I think Electro Priests are pretty decent, the melee ones need a transport to work best, but once they wipe a unit out, they're pretty tough save wise, a blob of the shooty guys would be getting lots of shots with re-rolls and the massed shots would force a lot of wounds against t3 units.
But I do agree that this army does seem better as an ally, I'd definitely use more of them in bigger point games but probably in a few formations. Their HQ is great and cheap for what it does as well.
Well yeah Canticles are great... but really only if you have a lot of them on the table. Which means taking the Cohort formation is kinda bad as it makes you have less units on the table. You can only get the higher amount by spamming units, which really only "works" with Priests, so they end up being massive taxes that you need to get the better effects. The whole thing feels counter-intuitive overall.
I don't think Canticles require as much as you think.
As i've kept mentioning, adding the pretty excellent Elimination Maniple to a battle-forged list, means already including 5 units at the LEAST (An allied detachment needing hq + troop, and then the formation being made up of three units).
That means you can reasonably count on having Shrouded for the first turn of the game, for example, or re-rolling 1's and 2's to hit in shooting, which you very likely will be doing.
Requizen wrote: The more I think about the rules for these guys, the quicker my enthusiasm fades.
Destroyers are a shooting powerhouse, yes. But, they're extremely fragile. A 55point unit that only has a 4+? My Necron Heavy Destroyers are 50 points with 3+ and RP. 6 shot Grav guns are great.... except against anything less armored than a Space Marine. Then they're pretty mediocre at shooting with their BS3.
Breachers are cheaper, but with the revelation that the Formation isn't just "perfect deep strike" and requires you to clump up around an Objective, they quickly faded in my mind. BS3 1 shot guns are fine when you have a crap ton of them, like on Tau or Guard or Termagants. On a 50 point model that you can't really "spam"? That's pretty bad.
Priests of both varieties are pretty trash, but at 90 points per unit being the cheapest in the codex (gross) you're basically forced to take them to MSU up for the Canticles to get to higher levels. And even then, they boosts don't make up for how bad they are.
Robots and the Dominus have the best rules in the book by far, but the Robots are so, so expensive. It's clear that the rules were designed to run Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus together, because CM by itself is basically mid to low-mid tier in my book. Lots of expensive models whose rules are great in certain situations and terrible in others.
Making a full on CM list is like suicide. Your Troops to spam are expensive and not precisely durable for their price. T5 W2 is great... 4+ armor on a 55 point model is not. Breachers somewhat make up for it with their 3+ and cheaper price, but their offensive capability is significantly worse. So either you end up with an elite list of expensive models (Kataphrons + Robots, small model count with high prices), or you shell out to have lots of Priests on the table which are bad.
CM is only best run when you have Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard as your "bread and butter" backbone to the army, with Kataphrons and Robots bringing heavy weapons, rather than being spammed. Or replace Skitarii with other Imperium armies, like Marines. Basically, CM by itself feels like a poor man's version of other factions doing "low model count elite armies", without nearly as good of a payoff, and you need to run it with Allies to be worthwhile.
I kind of want to start an AdMech army and buy both books, but if there is a true combined AdMech army book in the future I really, really don't want to spend the money now. Which sucks for GW, because a week ago I was ready to run out and just impulse buy a lot of models, but with the rules being the way they are to match, it's burnt out my enthusiasm.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few points, you might be overlooking the effectiveness of the canticles. Also I think Electro Priests are pretty decent, the melee ones need a transport to work best, but once they wipe a unit out, they're pretty tough save wise, a blob of the shooty guys would be getting lots of shots with re-rolls and the massed shots would force a lot of wounds against t3 units.
But I do agree that this army does seem better as an ally, I'd definitely use more of them in bigger point games but probably in a few formations. Their HQ is great and cheap for what it does as well.
Well yeah Canticles are great... but really only if you have a lot of them on the table. Which means taking the Cohort formation is kinda bad as it makes you have less units on the table. You can only get the higher amount by spamming units, which really only "works" with Priests, so they end up being massive taxes that you need to get the better effects. The whole thing feels counter-intuitive overall.
Priests aren't a bad tax, nor are kataphrons. But the sheer amount of attacks both flavors of priest can put out is very nice. And buffing their strength would do wonders in assaults. The problem is getting them to said assault.
Requizen wrote: The more I think about the rules for these guys, the quicker my enthusiasm fades.
Destroyers are a shooting powerhouse, yes. But, they're extremely fragile. A 55point unit that only has a 4+? My Necron Heavy Destroyers are 50 points with 3+ and RP. 6 shot Grav guns are great.... except against anything less armored than a Space Marine. Then they're pretty mediocre at shooting with their BS3.
Breachers are cheaper, but with the revelation that the Formation isn't just "perfect deep strike" and requires you to clump up around an Objective, they quickly faded in my mind. BS3 1 shot guns are fine when you have a crap ton of them, like on Tau or Guard or Termagants. On a 50 point model that you can't really "spam"? That's pretty bad.
Priests of both varieties are pretty trash, but at 90 points per unit being the cheapest in the codex (gross) you're basically forced to take them to MSU up for the Canticles to get to higher levels. And even then, they boosts don't make up for how bad they are.
Robots and the Dominus have the best rules in the book by far, but the Robots are so, so expensive. It's clear that the rules were designed to run Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus together, because CM by itself is basically mid to low-mid tier in my book. Lots of expensive models whose rules are great in certain situations and terrible in others.
Making a full on CM list is like suicide. Your Troops to spam are expensive and not precisely durable for their price. T5 W2 is great... 4+ armor on a 55 point model is not. Breachers somewhat make up for it with their 3+ and cheaper price, but their offensive capability is significantly worse. So either you end up with an elite list of expensive models (Kataphrons + Robots, small model count with high prices), or you shell out to have lots of Priests on the table which are bad.
CM is only best run when you have Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard as your "bread and butter" backbone to the army, with Kataphrons and Robots bringing heavy weapons, rather than being spammed. Or replace Skitarii with other Imperium armies, like Marines. Basically, CM by itself feels like a poor man's version of other factions doing "low model count elite armies", without nearly as good of a payoff, and you need to run it with Allies to be worthwhile.
I kind of want to start an AdMech army and buy both books, but if there is a true combined AdMech army book in the future I really, really don't want to spend the money now. Which sucks for GW, because a week ago I was ready to run out and just impulse buy a lot of models, but with the rules being the way they are to match, it's burnt out my enthusiasm.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few points, you might be overlooking the effectiveness of the canticles. Also I think Electro Priests are pretty decent, the melee ones need a transport to work best, but once they wipe a unit out, they're pretty tough save wise, a blob of the shooty guys would be getting lots of shots with re-rolls and the massed shots would force a lot of wounds against t3 units.
But I do agree that this army does seem better as an ally, I'd definitely use more of them in bigger point games but probably in a few formations. Their HQ is great and cheap for what it does as well.
Well yeah Canticles are great... but really only if you have a lot of them on the table. Which means taking the Cohort formation is kinda bad as it makes you have less units on the table. You can only get the higher amount by spamming units, which really only "works" with Priests, so they end up being massive taxes that you need to get the better effects. The whole thing feels counter-intuitive overall.
Priests aren't a bad tax, nor are kataphrons. But the sheer amount of attacks both flavors of priest can put out is very nice. And buffing their strength would do wonders in assaults. The problem is getting them to said assault.
How would you equip Kataphrons that would work alongside Vanguards? Would you do Plasma on the Vanguard, and Heavy Arc on the Kataphrons and Arc Rifles on the Vanguard?
The advantage I see to Heavy Arc on the Kataphrons is the additional range over an Arc Rifle, whereas the Plasma Caliver keeps the same range for both.
Trying to find a 4th unit to get the second tier canticles on the first turn at least....almost considering priests.....in an allied detachment anyway lol
Also up to 750 points of free stuff in my formation army. Ally in blood Angels for some pods, and we have a good time here
Slightly changing the subject back to Skitarii, as I just don't know anything. Is the Eradication Beamer on the Dunewalker any good? I sort of like it, but the Neutron laser kinda ups it a bit doesn't it?
The Eradication Beamer is fairly nice when you know you are going to have range--but the Neutron Laser is going to be better overall since it doesn't have the 'rangebands'.
Leth wrote: Just can't pass up all those grav shots.....
Trying to find a 4th unit to get the second tier canticles on the first turn at least....almost considering priests.....in an allied detachment anyway lol
Also up to 750 points of free stuff in my formation army. Ally in blood Angels for some pods, and we have a good time here
And you think this is a good thing for the game? 40k's continued path down the road of whom ever wins the go first roll, wins the game.
KiloFiX wrote: Any thoughts on Volkite vs Eradication in the Magos Dominus?
They're both really good, its a tough choice
IMHO, the Volkite requires you to get too close to be effective, and I'm not sure you want to put your Warlord that close to your foes in a shooty army. The Ray lets you punch slightly further at 24", which is just outside of most units' threat range for charging, while retaining AP3 blast for if you're attached to dakkabots. Just my two cents, though.
That said, thoughts on the loadouts for Kataphrons?
KiloFiX wrote: Right now my Kataphrons will be mostly Graviton, with half Flamer (vs CC) and half Phosphor (vs Cover).
I have a few with a Plasma, just to have such but IMHO Graviton mostly trumps Plasma.
I'm with you on this. Salvo 6 is nothing to sneeze at compared to Heavy 2/blast, and since it's still AP2 it's even more deadly against TEQs and the ilk. Higher range, can compensate against GEQs with sheer number of shots, and other units in the army can deal with horde better (hi dakkabots)... I guess I'm just stuck in an era where plasma and melta ruled (and str10 AP1 did not exist) and still feel the urge to slap plasma weapons on anything and everything, heh. Any use for the Heavy Arc Rifle? Or can Grav do the job just as well?
Leth wrote: Just can't pass up all those grav shots.....
Trying to find a 4th unit to get the second tier canticles on the first turn at least....almost considering priests.....in an allied detachment anyway lol
Also up to 750 points of free stuff in my formation army. Ally in blood Angels for some pods, and we have a good time here
And you think this is a good thing for the game? 40k's continued path down the road of whom ever wins the go first roll, wins the game.
Hell no, I think it's awful. The only saving grace is that the list is terrible. only thing that saves it at all is the free stuff. Honestly most of those points in upgrades are not actually making the list stronger it's "ehhh why not" upgrades. I would probably only be looking at maybe 400 points of meaningful upgrades, nothing in the scheme of things co spidering the required investment for that formation
I'm Kind of tossing around the idea of allying in Tempestus for access to flyers and Tauroxes. I know the Taurox hasn't really made a splash at all, but I feel like they can shore up a few holes in a Skitarii list while providing fast transports as well as deepstrikers with half decent guns.
Wingeds wrote: I'm Kind of tossing around the idea of allying in Tempestus for access to flyers and Tauroxes. I know the Taurox hasn't really made a splash at all, but I feel like they can shore up a few holes in a Skitarii list while providing fast transports as well as deepstrikers with half decent guns.
Wouldn't Inquisition be cheaper for flyers. plus the servoskulls are quite handy.
Yea, I am currently building a large battle servitor unit. Can't decide if I want to include any plasma. Outside of daemons I am not worried about any lists where it is worth it most of the time. Maybe consider one for creating a seperate wound pool...
Played a very hectic game yesterday (5v5 madness). Can't judge much on overall army performance, but it was an excellent opportunity to test Onager durability in squadrons. Properly supported, assaults were never a threat for them. Ran 2x with Neutrons, extra stubber, and IWND gloves. Five turns of various shots directed their way (assorted Eldar pulse lasers and brightlances and starcannons and EML, Tyranid haywire missiles and Dakka Tyrant, Shokattack and Smasha guns) saw one HP off one crab by the end of the match. Each time the front took wounds, cycled him back and let IWND do its job. Total squad lost three HP and repaired two.
On the subject of Eradication on the Dunecrawler - depends on your list I'd say. If you're lacking in anti-horde, that large blast is invaluable. Else grab Neutron.
Leth wrote: Yea, I am currently building a large battle servitor unit. Can't decide if I want to include any plasma. Outside of daemons I am not worried about any lists where it is worth it most of the time. Maybe consider one for creating a seperate wound pool...
And if it gets hot just have the magos fix him
I had this same dilemma before. I saw on another board someone did the mathhammer for Grav weapons vs. Plasma, in most cases Grav trumped. 18 Heavy Grav shots is nothing to sniff at. You can kill one Tyranid MC per round of shooting. Stick Coteaz for his special rule and any deepstrikers are going to cry - including droppod shenanigans.
Right now the list I'm thinking of requires working with the Inquisition.
Coteaz
Xenos Inquisitor with Rad/Psychotroke Grenades, Needle Pistol/Conversion Beamer, Power Armor, Psyker ML1
2 henchmen mob with a psyker, 3 melta acolytes, and a payback
Magos Dominus
2 Kataphron GravStroyer squads (3 man) with cognis flamers
1 5 man Gravstroyer squad
1 4 man Kastellan squad with all phosphor.
The idea is that the Magos and Xenos Inquisitor go with the Kastellans so they have ablative wounds while being even more effective in CC if needed. The Inquisitor can also use Prescience on the unit to improve the DAKKA even more.
Coteaz rides with the larger Gravstroyer unit to give them interceptor.
The Psyback mobs and min destroyer squads can both take down vehicles as well as infantry reasonably well. The Psybacks take care of low armor save units while the destroyers nuke MEQ and TEQ.
I feel like anything more than MSU with Kastellan is going to be over-kill. Their split-fire formation exists, in part, because more than 2 of them, at those points, will over-kill almost anything.
Which is balanced around their being expensive, and still only targeting one unit (split fire only exists in an even more insanely expensive formation).
My point was to the post above, considering running four Kastellan in a unit, which is just a terrible waste.
TranSpyre wrote: Right now the list I'm thinking of requires working with the Inquisition.
Coteaz
Xenos Inquisitor with Rad/Psychotroke Grenades, Needle Pistol/Conversion Beamer, Power Armor, Psyker ML1
2 henchmen mob with a psyker, 3 melta acolytes, and a payback
Magos Dominus
2 Kataphron GravStroyer squads (3 man) with cognis flamers
1 5 man Gravstroyer squad
1 4 man Kastellan squad with all phosphor.
The idea is that the Magos and Xenos Inquisitor go with the Kastellans so they have ablative wounds while being even more effective in CC if needed. The Inquisitor can also use Prescience on the unit to improve the DAKKA even more.
Coteaz rides with the larger Gravstroyer unit to give them interceptor.
The Psyback mobs and min destroyer squads can both take down vehicles as well as infantry reasonably well. The Psybacks take care of low armor save units while the destroyers nuke MEQ and TEQ.
Only issue is an IC cannot join a unit that contains Monstrous Creatures. Dominus gets around this by Formation rules, but you can't put regular ICs into them.
I think getting a Divination Psyker is critical to use Prescience to "fix" BS4 on, well, everything. Canticles will help one turn, but after that you'll want more rerolls.
BS3, I think you mean. But while it's unfortunate, I don't think Cult can hit the return threshold on points spent for a divination psyker as opposed to just adding more guns. By which I mean - factor the number of shots you get from a squad's re-roll assuming prescience and the point spent on the psyker to do it. Then see how many more guns you could get for those points, and the extra hits they'd provide. Compare.
So guys, it is obvious that the Kataphrons are supposed to be our Grav equipped MC killers. The prime target will Riptides, Wraithknights. The question I have is how do we prevent our Kataphrons from being destroyed by these MC's themselves?
If you go first, it is less of a huge deal, as you can buff the Kataphrons easily through psychic or canticles and shoot at least one of those MCs off the board turn 1.
If you aren't going first, there are problems. These MC's have some pretty devastating shooting by themselves that can easily wipe them turn 1. That isn't even counting the rest of the opponents army. So, what do we do? Do we keep them in reserve and hope they arrive turn 2?
obsidiankatana wrote: BS3, I think you mean. But while it's unfortunate, I don't think Cult can hit the return threshold on points spent for a divination psyker as opposed to just adding more guns. By which I mean - factor the number of shots you get from a squad's re-roll assuming prescience and the point spent on the psyker to do it. Then see how many more guns you could get for those points, and the extra hits they'd provide. Compare.
Coteaz in a unit of Grav Destroyers is only 100 points and probably way more effective than 2 Breachers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ultimentra wrote: So guys, it is obvious that the Kataphrons are supposed to be our Grav equipped MC killers. The prime target will Riptides, Wraithknights. The question I have is how do we prevent our Kataphrons from being destroyed by these MC's themselves?
If you go first, it is less of a huge deal, as you can buff the Kataphrons easily through psychic or canticles and shoot at least one of those MCs off the board turn 1.
If you aren't going first, there are problems. These MC's have some pretty devastating shooting by themselves that can easily wipe them turn 1. That isn't even counting the rest of the opponents army. So, what do we do? Do we keep them in reserve and hope they arrive turn 2?
Requizen wrote: Coteaz in a unit of Grav Destroyers is only 100 points and probably way more effective than 2 Breachers.
So, Coteaz for 100pts nets you 4.5 hits in a 3man unit. They shoot 18 times, hit 9, re-roll 9 into 4.5 more, for a net of 13.5.
Ten points more is two Destroyers, who net you 6 more hits. First squad of three hits 9, second squad hits 6, for a net of 15. In addition, they increase the maximum number of hits and open up opportunities for a second target. However, no interceptor. From a raw hits per point perspective, Coteaz is not the answer here. Won't always be the case, but it's something to consider when list building.
Requizen wrote: Coteaz in a unit of Grav Destroyers is only 100 points and probably way more effective than 2 Breachers.
So, Coteaz for 100pts nets you 4.5 hits in a 3man unit. They shoot 18 times, hit 9, re-roll 9 into 4.5 more, for a net of 13.5.
Ten points more is two Destroyers, who net you 6 more hits. First squad of three hits 9, second squad hits 6, for a net of 15. In addition, they increase the maximum number of hits and open up opportunities for a second target. However, no interceptor. From a raw hits per point perspective, Coteaz is not the answer here. Won't always be the case, but it's something to consider when list building.
He also has his own gun and a Thunderhammer, as well as any other powers he rolls (including 4++ or full BS Overwatch), and the mega-interceptor. That's much more versatile overall than just 2 more dudes imo.
Requizen wrote: Coteaz in a unit of Grav Destroyers is only 100 points and probably way more effective than 2 Breachers.
So, Coteaz for 100pts nets you 4.5 hits in a 3man unit. They shoot 18 times, hit 9, re-roll 9 into 4.5 more, for a net of 13.5.
Ten points more is two Destroyers, who net you 6 more hits. First squad of three hits 9, second squad hits 6, for a net of 15. In addition, they increase the maximum number of hits and open up opportunities for a second target. However, no interceptor. From a raw hits per point perspective, Coteaz is not the answer here. Won't always be the case, but it's something to consider when list building.
He also has his own gun and a Thunderhammer, as well as any other powers he rolls (including 4++ or full BS Overwatch), and the mega-interceptor. That's much more versatile overall than just 2 more dudes imo.
This makes a lot of assumptions. Firstly, his gun is S4 AP- with variable shots. That's not all that impressive. Secondly, that he rolls the powers in question. Thirdly, that the D6 for warp pool is enough to attempt them. Lastly, that he successfully casts them. I've already mentioned the interceptor, and in fact stated that the benefit is outweighed only in pure shot count and target selection. Coteaz is variably versatile. More Kataphrons are reliably efficient. Again, not that psykers are never the right choice. Nor are more Kataphrons. But if your goal, as was previously discussed, is to "fix" the BS3 of Kataphrons - there is a mathematical method for determining whether you want Divination or more Servitors.
Sure, if your only goal is to fix that one thing then yes, there are specific points value formulas you can use. However it is not efficient to look at a unit in a bubble instead of holistically.
I might be able to get preferred enemy, however that is not as efficient as twin linking. However it helps me with wounds and in combat.
Coteaz has reroll seize, this can make a huge difference from the start of the game in addition to his psychic powers and over watch protection. Worried about deep striking d-scythes? He now keeps your unit completely safe. Wanting to run larger units? Now his points per hit get better.
He can also split off and leave the unit. Now it can claim two objectives. So on and so forth
In regards to putting the Magos and Inquisitor with the Kastellans, an IC cannot join a unit comprised SOLELY of monstrous creatures. It's how Tau players use Shadowsun with Riptides, since the unit has the option to take drones.
Since the datasmith is infantry, ICs can join the unit.
As to why I have Coteaz with the destroyers over more destroyers, it's to gain the boosted overwatch and interceptor. I was planning on using divination on the xenos Inquisitor to buff the kastellan robots, with the availability of 5+D6 warp charges per turn allowing Coteaz some leeway for his unit as well.
In regards to putting the Magos and Inquisitor with the Kastellans, an IC cannot join a unit comprised SOLELY of monstrous creatures. It's how Tau players use Shadowsun with Riptides, since the unit has the option to take drones.
Since the datasmith is infantry, ICs can join the unit.
Sadly, that's not the case. The wording of the Independent Character rule is as follows:
BRB: Independent Characters Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join units that contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures.
Contain, not made entirely of. I don't know how Tau shenanigans work (I think it's because it's a bodyguard unit or something?), but a normal IC cannot join a unit that has a MC or vehicle as part of it.
The formation gets around this by being, well, a formation. Much like the Conclave of the Burning One does for Necrons.
So I'm considering the potential of sticking Azrael with the shooty Electro Priests, I was thinking of that for the assault version, but they can get better invuln saves once they wipe a unit and Azrael's buff would become redundant even if he were to give them furious charge via warlord traits.
Hey guys im kind of new to the Mechanicum/Skitarii discussion and ive glanced through the forum though I am pretty sure ive missed a few things. I am considering taking a 2500pt. force of combined Mechanicum/Skitarii for my Imperial Forces (since 5000pts. of Elysians might be a little crazy lol) and wanted some insight if its not to much trouble. Questions I have are:
-Dragoons: I am considering running x2 units of 6 of these guys all with Phosphor Serpentas, is this recommended and is a full unit of x6 a good idea?
-Kataphron Destroyers & Breachers: I really like the look of these guys and think they could be utterly devastating, however they are pricy so I am thinking an MSU style approach with x2 units of each type with 3 per squad is the best way to run them.
-Dunecrawlers: I am tempted to run only x2 of these guys with Icarus Arrays to handle anti-air but is it smart to only take that few for that one role?
-HQ choices: Does the Mechanicum book have the same mechanic when it comes to trying to pick an HQ choice that they don't have any? Really appreciate any intel in that regard!
-Rangers or Vanguard?: I am really torn between these units for different reasons, I love the range capability on the Rangers but they really don't sync well with any of the Special Weapons outside the Arquebus. And the Vanguard are great for getting stuck in but are really expensive, especially with their Plasma Calivers. Are the Plasma weapons even worth taking?
gmaleron wrote: Hey guys im kind of new to the Mechanicum/Skitarii discussion and ive glanced through the forum though I am pretty sure ive missed a few things. I am considering taking a 2500pt. force of combined Mechanicum/Skitarii for my Imperial Forces (since 5000pts. of Elysians might be a little crazy lol) and wanted some insight if its not to much trouble. Questions I have are:
-Dragoons: I am considering running x2 units of 6 of these guys all with Phosphor Serpentas, is this recommended and is a full unit of x6 a good idea?
A squad of 6 Dragoons is a bit overkill. I recommend squads of 3, with either all Radium Jezzails or all Taser Lance.
-Kataphron Destroyers & Breachers: I really like the look of these guys and think they could be utterly devastating, however they are pricy so I am thinking an MSU style approach with x2 units of each type with 3 per squad is the best way to run them.
MSU with Heavy Grav is the best way to run Destroyers. It will, however, be ineffective against Orks and Nids. YMMV depending on local meta. I can't really determine a good loadout for Breachers. I suppose the Arc will be good in a pure Cult Mech list, as Skitarii have more haywire for cheaper. Torsion Cannons are probably slightly better, but them being 1 shot at BS3 somewhat gimps them.
-Dunecrawlers: I am tempted to run only x2 of these guys with Icarus Arrays to handle anti-air but is it smart to only take that few for that one role?
That should be fine. They would be likely wasted points in a game with no flyers, however. There aren't really any subpar weapons on the Onager except for the HPB.
-HQ choices: Does the Mechanicum book have the same mechanic when it comes to trying to pick an HQ choice that they don't have any? Really appreciate any intel in that regard!
Cult Mech has an HQ, Skitarii doesn't. Take a Cult Mech CAD or Battle Congregation and a Skitarii Maniple detachment.
-Rangers or Vanguard?: I am really torn between these units for different reasons, I love the range capability on the Rangers but they really don't sync well with any of the Special Weapons outside the Arquebus. And the Vanguard are great for getting stuck in but are really expensive, especially with their Plasma Calivers. Are the Plasma weapons even worth taking?
Appreciate the feedback guys, thanks!
A 2:1 ratio of Vanguard:Rangers is good. Vanguard are better in almost every way, except range. Plasma is absolutely worth it.
I would normally agree with all of the above, EXCEPT Plasma is only worth it on Vanguard if you are running pure Skitarii. The Cult Mechanicus side has much better, and relatively cheaper AP2 at its disposal.
Vanguard w/Haywire are some of the best troops in the game, for their price. Any other load-out, while still good, is less amazing. Rapid fire, Haywire, on three guys, plus potentially a pistol on the Alpha is just hilarious. In a Pod these guys will earn back their points, twice over, on the first turn. :-p
I'm not planning on putting my Skitarii in a drop pod because I think it's a silly gimmick that doesn't fit the fluff at all. That and I'm not building this army to be super tournament level competitive, my Elysian Drop Troops 9 flyer list takes care of that!
Also I really like the Battle Maniple but I'm not a fan of the CC/Elite choices at all so will probably run x2 CAD or until I can see the Mechanicum Formations.
I imagine Elysians/Admech would be absolutely devastating. I'm actually putting together a D-99/stock Elysian list with CM and Skitarii, and it's the perfect combination of a glass cannon army that can get right in your enemy's face, since Elysians already act as a glass cannon.
Just my initial assessment but I think grav kataphron destroyers will be the go to allies for just about every imperial army. 400pts gets you a CAD with a base dominus (useful to devs or guard blobs because of relentless) and two units of 3 grav destroyers basically countering MC and GMC meta builds on the spot.
buddha wrote: Just my initial assessment but I think grav kataphron destroyers will be the go to allies for just about every imperial army. 400pts gets you a CAD with a base dominus (useful to devs or guard blobs because of relentless) and two units of 3 grav destroyers basically countering MC and GMC meta builds on the spot.
What does Relentless do for Devestators? He doesn't pass it to the unit.
Not to say an allied Dominus isn't great. He can repair vehicles, and with T5/FNP/2+/5++ and good shooting/assault he basically isn't a bad guy to put in anywhere.
Funny idea, not entirely sure if legal, but you could use that dominus and 2 kastelan formation to make a one unit 1850 army, dominus, 4 priests, 10 kastelans, 1850 points...............
BAHAHAHAHAHA, so dumb but so amusing, 60-90 S6 ap3 shots abound, tons of ap2 close combat, potential FnP... just so silly, a 1 unit army. If there are no restrictions on adding models to that unit, that is just plain hilarious.
gameandwatch wrote:Funny idea, not entirely sure if legal, but you could use that dominus and 2 kastelan formation to make a one unit 1850 army, dominus, 4 priests, 10 kastelans, 1850 points...............
BAHAHAHAHAHA, so dumb but so amusing, 60-90 S6 ap3 shots abound, tons of ap2 close combat, potential FnP... just so silly, a 1 unit army. If there are no restrictions on adding models to that unit, that is just plain hilarious.
WELCOME TO THE THUNDERDOME
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Definitely not legal. It would be a formation without a detachment. :-p
Formations are detachments. You can legally run armies made entirely of Formations.
gameandwatch wrote:Funny idea, not entirely sure if legal, but you could use that dominus and 2 kastelan formation to make a one unit 1850 army, dominus, 4 priests, 10 kastelans, 1850 points...............
BAHAHAHAHAHA, so dumb but so amusing, 60-90 S6 ap3 shots abound, tons of ap2 close combat, potential FnP... just so silly, a 1 unit army. If there are no restrictions on adding models to that unit, that is just plain hilarious.
WELCOME TO THE THUNDERDOME
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Definitely not legal. It would be a formation without a detachment. :-p
Formations are detachments. You can legally run armies made entirely of Formations.
OMG THAT IS THE BEST NAME FOR THAT LIST, THUNDERDOME!!!!
gameandwatch wrote:Funny idea, not entirely sure if legal, but you could use that dominus and 2 kastelan formation to make a one unit 1850 army, dominus, 4 priests, 10 kastelans, 1850 points...............
BAHAHAHAHAHA, so dumb but so amusing, 60-90 S6 ap3 shots abound, tons of ap2 close combat, potential FnP... just so silly, a 1 unit army. If there are no restrictions on adding models to that unit, that is just plain hilarious.
WELCOME TO THE THUNDERDOME
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Definitely not legal. It would be a formation without a detachment. :-p
Formations are detachments. You can legally run armies made entirely of Formations.
OMG THAT IS THE BEST NAME FOR THAT LIST, THUNDERDOME!!!!
Well, there's already a Thunderdome list - It's a Space Wolves list where you take TWC and a bunch of ICs on Wolves, lots of Shields and Hammers, one massive ~1500 point unit that rolls around smashing things.
Woah, wait... Seriously? I, sincerely, did not know you could run formations from one book, with an entirely different army, and still be a battle-forged list.
That makes my list building a LOT easier, as I was trying to shoe-horn a Cult Mechanicus "Elimination Maniple" into an Allied detachment (meaning I had to find points for a Magos and another unit of Destroyers/Breachers), and hated the enormous point investment.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Woah, wait... Seriously? I, sincerely, did not know you could run formations from one book, with an entirely different army, and still be a battle-forged list.
That makes my list building a LOT easier, as I was trying to shoe-horn a Cult Mechanicus "Elimination Maniple" into an Allied detachment (meaning I had to find points for a Magos and another unit of Destroyers/Breachers), and hated the enormous point investment.
Of course, this is how people have been using the Tau Firebase formation with other armies
gameandwatch wrote: Funny idea, not entirely sure if legal, but you could use that dominus and 2 kastelan formation to make a one unit 1850 army, dominus, 4 priests, 10 kastelans, 1850 points...............
BAHAHAHAHAHA, so dumb but so amusing, 60-90 S6 ap3 shots abound, tons of ap2 close combat, potential FnP... just so silly, a 1 unit army. If there are no restrictions on adding models to that unit, that is just plain hilarious.
I scratched my head and thought the pointage was off, and went back and did the math... Holy hell you're right.
(Yes, you can add more models to the unit based on the individual Kastelan max unit size)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gmaleron wrote: Thanks for the help earlier guys, I've compiled a rough list for what I'm trying to go for. any tips would be appreciated guys, thank you!
I'd replace some of your Kataphrons with more Vanguard with Arc Rifles, and try to squeeze in a Kastelan unit if you can. They make a good dakka firebase while also drawing fire for the rest of your army to get in range. The Vanguard Scout move makes them tactically more flexible, plus their cancer guns are more versatile (can kill MCs and horde). Two Icarus Onagers is also a little overkill, unless you're in a heavy flyer meta. Otherwise I'd break them into two units and give the second a neutron laser.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I'm assuming you meant Skitarii Mantiple, as Skitarii cant take a Combined Arms Detachment
I did thank you! And to answer your suggestions Enigwolf:
-I'm down for getting more Vanguard, the more and more I read about these guys the more I like them! However I do feel that it's better to put your warlord in a unit of Rangers so he is not potentially killed for getting to close.
-The Kastelan unitis a pretty solid firebase but it is way too expensive for what it does, I would have to get rid of quite a chunk of the list above just to field them.
-there is a pretty decent flyer presents in my local meta and also I'm trying to take advantage of the +1 to invulnerable saves rule they have.
Anybody else kinda...I dunno... bummed that the +1 BS no cover formation exists?
It is just one of those things that I want to use cause it sounds great, but EVERYONE will use because it really is just so good. I am worried about seeing a ton of random armies with that formation just thrown in.
gameandwatch wrote: Anybody else kinda...I dunno... bummed that the +1 BS no cover formation exists?
It is just one of those things that I want to use cause it sounds great, but EVERYONE will use because it really is just so good. I am worried about seeing a ton of random armies with that formation just thrown in.
gameandwatch wrote: Anybody else kinda...I dunno... bummed that the +1 BS no cover formation exists?
It is just one of those things that I want to use cause it sounds great, but EVERYONE will use because it really is just so good. I am worried about seeing a ton of random armies with that formation just thrown in.
Well its not straight up +1 BS and no cover, theres a caveat to it that the unit you're shooting at has to be wounded by kasellan's first
gameandwatch wrote: Anybody else kinda...I dunno... bummed that the +1 BS no cover formation exists?
It is just one of those things that I want to use cause it sounds great, but EVERYONE will use because it really is just so good. I am worried about seeing a ton of random armies with that formation just thrown in.
Well its not straight up +1 BS and no cover, theres a caveat to it that the unit you're shooting at has to be wounded by kasellan's first
WOA WOA WOA, Seriously!? Ok, ok, that makes it WAY better, cause as the rumors were posting, it was just unit wide +1 BS and ignore cover...which...is just dumb with 36 grav shots and 12-18 S6 ap3 shots...
Guy with the codex was leaking informaiton on warseer a few days ago
I have the 'dex in hand, left it at the FLGS though. As I remember, formation is +1 BS/Ignores cover if a Kastelan wounds or pens a target with a weapon with the Luminagen rule (aka HPB) . Only then does the rest of the formation get a +1BS/Ignores cover.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I'm assuming you meant Skitarii Mantiple, as Skitarii cant take a Combined Arms Detachment
I did thank you! And to answer your suggestions Enigwolf:
-I'm down for getting more Vanguard, the more and more I read about these guys the more I like them! However I do feel that it's better to put your warlord in a unit of Rangers so he is not potentially killed for getting to close.
-The Kastelan unitis a pretty solid firebase but it is way too expensive for what it does, I would have to get rid of quite a chunk of the list above just to field them.
-there is a pretty decent flyer presents in my local meta and also I'm trying to take advantage of the +1 to invulnerable saves rule they have.
No disagreements with the Ranger thing. That said your Dominus himself is pretty tough to kill, and with so many units on the board I doubt they'll be soloing him out. Agreed with the Kastelan, and fair enough with the flyers.
I wish I could get behind the Kastelans because they are pretty good, however they are just so expensive for what they do. 310 points to run them the way I'd want to, just doesn't seem worth it.
man I know I need to wait for the complete rules before I get stuck in list making land but it is sooooo hard.....
After looking at more of the rules and playing a game with some of the units that formation actually does lots of things really really well outside of having OS lol. The super formation that is
I tried out the super formation with skitarii and BA pods last night vs a UKGT player. He took 12 units of 3 dark reapers with exarches. ( 3 aspect warror formations i beleive.)
we played two games up to turn 3;
Both games were eternal war, 5 objectives. ( mission 5 from UKGT PACK i beleive?)
Game 1 he went first and i null deployed.
3 pods came down in my turn, 2 destoyers with grav and 1 vangaurd with triple plasma with PE.
Took out the 3 units i shot at, in return he took out the three units i deployed.
This was repeated as i deployed more units, leaving him on top as msu is a great counter to such a small yet hard hitting force. Also, 4ups make a very delicate force.
Second game we played the same mission but different deployement. I took first turn and deployed the robots in a ruin, dropped the destyers and vanguard down again but this time in better location avoiding LOS from a fair few more units and getting toes ( tracs) in cover.
Took out 3 units and brought a 4th down to one exarch. He retaliated and took out my vangaurd sqaud( with warlord) and cut both units of destoyers down a few wounds.
This game was much closer but due to some unlucky scatters, the pods moved off from their origional destinations. I.e direclty onto objectives.
What i learnt; aspect warrior formation is great. Thet much ap3 + missiles is very powerful- especially vs such weak armour.
Keep your foot in cover at all times and deploy tactically- try and get out of LOS with vanguard if you can. Use corners.
Be aggresive with the robots and tank wounds with the datasmiths 2+ AS.
The formation is good but vs MSU it is not effective as its a wasted qauntity of shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My list FYI;
+++ SKITARII AVEC MECHANICUS (1500pts) +++
++ Skitarii: Codex (2015) (Skitarii Maniple) ++
+ Troops +
Skitarii Vanguard [2x Arc rifle, 4x Skitarii Vanguard] this was a TAC list, no judging! Vanguard Alpha [Arc pistol]
WrentheFaceless wrote: So why did you choose to use plasma on the Kataphrons and not grav?
i didnt, i used grav. See comment next to plasma. Once i pasted i couldnt be arsed to go back and change it lol. Edit: i have updated the origional post to avoid confusion - soz
I was indeed using the elimination maniple. +1 BS and ignores cover if enemy unit wounded by heavy phospher blasters from the robots.
So I'm thinking of just taking the Cohort Cybernetica and allying it with Militarum Tempestus. Only deploy the Formation and do mass Deep Strike with the Scions (max min units of 5 with special weapons).
The Cohort shouldn't die first turn. 19 wounds at T7 with some 2+, most 3+, most 5++, robots FNP on turn 1, Dominus FNP all turns, healing damage... you get the point. It should be tough enough to survive at least until the MSU Deep Strike Scions start slamming down all over the table.
I mean, there are cases where it might die first turn. Anyone who has played with/against FMC spam Tyranids knows that: those Flyrants sitting in Ruins with a Malanthrope for a 2+ cover might feel safe, but I've seen people lose 1.5 Flyrants due to alpha strike lists or just pure weight of fire.
That said, you can sit in ruins and losing a Robot or two isn't the end of the world. Plus, with Robots reflecting shots, you might kill a few models while being a magnet of your own.
buddha wrote: Just my initial assessment but I think grav kataphron destroyers will be the go to allies for just about every imperial army. 400pts gets you a CAD with a base dominus (useful to devs or guard blobs because of relentless) and two units of 3 grav destroyers basically countering MC and GMC meta builds on the spot.
What does Relentless do for Devestators? He doesn't pass it to the unit.
Not to say an allied Dominus isn't great. He can repair vehicles, and with T5/FNP/2+/5++ and good shooting/assault he basically isn't a bad guy to put in anywhere.
Yes, Slow and purposeful does(or did in 6th) but relentless does not. Otherwise everyone would just put a guy on a bike with their heavy weapon squad rather than just ally in something.
Requizen wrote: I mean, there are cases where it might die first turn. Anyone who has played with/against FMC spam Tyranids knows that: those Flyrants sitting in Ruins with a Malanthrope for a 2+ cover might feel safe, but I've seen people lose 1.5 Flyrants due to alpha strike lists or just pure weight of fire.
That said, you can sit in ruins and losing a Robot or two isn't the end of the world. Plus, with Robots reflecting shots, you might kill a few models while being a magnet of your own.
Another Skitarii/CM army with lots of Grav or cancer guns.
buddha wrote: Just my initial assessment but I think grav kataphron destroyers will be the go to allies for just about every imperial army. 400pts gets you a CAD with a base dominus (useful to devs or guard blobs because of relentless) and two units of 3 grav destroyers basically countering MC and GMC meta builds on the spot.
What does Relentless do for Devestators? He doesn't pass it to the unit.
Not to say an allied Dominus isn't great. He can repair vehicles, and with T5/FNP/2+/5++ and good shooting/assault he basically isn't a bad guy to put in anywhere.
Yes, Slow and purposeful does(or did in 6th) but relentless does not. Otherwise everyone would just put a guy on a bike with their heavy weapon squad rather than just ally in something.
Ah my bad, got slow and purposeful mixed up with relentless. Still though, the dominus is hardly a tax to get the grav kataphron.
So the things I think might make the electro priests somewhat useful is to help increase the number of units for litanies and when they get into melee to use the Litany of the Electromancer.
These seem to be the cheapest units in the codex so getting 8+ units on the board with any of the other options may be somewhat challenging.
The other thing is if you do manage to get even 3 models into combat with the Litany of the Electromancer and 8+ units you will be dealing 9 Str 4 hits at I10, every round of melee. That is actually a considerable amount of damage as compared to their 90 pts price tag. The models are also small enough that you can hide the units using them as harassment.
I would rank them bad and questionable usefulness but I can see the glimmerings of at least a mediocre use for them. Without the litanies this unit is something like 2x the cost of what it can do.
Requizen wrote: I mean, there are cases where it might die first turn. Anyone who has played with/against FMC spam Tyranids knows that: those Flyrants sitting in Ruins with a Malanthrope for a 2+ cover might feel safe, but I've seen people lose 1.5 Flyrants due to alpha strike lists or just pure weight of fire.
That said, you can sit in ruins and losing a Robot or two isn't the end of the world. Plus, with Robots reflecting shots, you might kill a few models while being a magnet of your own.
Another Skitarii/CM army with lots of Grav or cancer guns.
That rumored Stasis Field upgrade (2++ but can't shoot or assault) upgrade seems interesting, depending on how much it costs. If you know that their only job is to survive turn 1 and that a sudden increase in shooting is about to make that difficult, it could be useful.
ansacs wrote:So the things I think might make the electro priests somewhat useful is to help increase the number of units for litanies and when they get into melee to use the Litany of the Electromancer.
These seem to be the cheapest units in the codex so getting 8+ units on the board with any of the other options may be somewhat challenging.
The other thing is if you do manage to get even 3 models into combat with the Litany of the Electromancer and 8+ units you will be dealing 9 Str 4 hits at I10, every round of melee. That is actually a considerable amount of damage as compared to their 90 pts price tag. The models are also small enough that you can hide the units using them as harassment.
I would rank them bad and questionable usefulness but I can see the glimmerings of at least a mediocre use for them. Without the litanies this unit is something like 2x the cost of what it can do.
It seems kinda counterintuitive still. You want big units to get into assault and not get wiped out, but you want MSU to get the higher ranks. You can charge multiple into one assault, but still. If they were half the price like Daemons, it wouldn't be so annoying.
So I was fiddling around and came up with a Force that fits me for the Admech War Convocation that I want to test out to see if the formation is all that
Skitarii Battle Mantiple - Codex: Skitarii Vanguard x 10 (3 x plasma, omnispex, Conversion field) -100 Pts
Rangers x 10 (3x arc rifle, ominspex, conversion field) - 120 pts
Dragoons x2 (taser lance) - 90 pts
Infiltrators x 5 ( taser/flechete, conversion field, digital weapons) 185 pts
Rust Stalkers x 5 (Claw, razor grenades, conversion field, digital weapons ) 160 pts
Dunecralwer x1 (Icarrus, extra stubber, cognis) - 90 Pts
Didnt bother with the upgrades as dont have the relics or cult mechanius options in front of me but this totals 1840 points as my local area usually plays 1850
WrentheFaceless wrote: So I was fiddling around and came up with a Force that fits me for the Admech War Convocation that I want to test out to see if the formation is all that
Skitarii Battle Mantiple - Codex: Skitarii Vanguard x 10 (3 x plasma, omnispex, Conversion field) -100 Pts
Rangers x 10 (3x arc rifle, ominspex, conversion field) - 120 pts
Dragoons x2 (taser lance) - 90 pts
Infiltrators x 5 ( taser/flechete, conversion field, digital weapons) 185 pts
Rust Stalkers x 5 (Claw, razor grenades, conversion field, digital weapons ) 160 pts
Dunecralwer x1 (Icarrus, extra stubber, cognis) - 90 Pts
Didnt bother with the upgrades as dont have the relics or cult mechanius options in front of me but this totals 1840 points as my local area usually plays 1850
It will be fun, but it won't be easy to play with.
WrentheFaceless wrote: So I was fiddling around and came up with a Force that fits me for the Admech War Convocation that I want to test out to see if the formation is all that
Skitarii Battle Mantiple - Codex: Skitarii Vanguard x 10 (3 x plasma, omnispex, Conversion field) -100 Pts
Rangers x 10 (3x arc rifle, ominspex, conversion field) - 120 pts
Dragoons x2 (taser lance) - 90 pts
Infiltrators x 5 ( taser/flechete, conversion field, digital weapons) 185 pts
Rust Stalkers x 5 (Claw, razor grenades, conversion field, digital weapons ) 160 pts
Dunecralwer x1 (Icarrus, extra stubber, cognis) - 90 Pts
Didnt bother with the upgrades as dont have the relics or cult mechanius options in front of me but this totals 1840 points as my local area usually plays 1850
It will be fun, but it won't be easy to play with.
Too much squish
It will certainly be a lot of fun, and obviously will be crazy good against someone who doesnt know what to shoot at.
I might swap out the arc rifles for aquebuses on the rangers but otherwise I think it looks good.
ansacs wrote:So the things I think might make the electro priests somewhat useful is to help increase the number of units for litanies and when they get into melee to use the Litany of the Electromancer.
These seem to be the cheapest units in the codex so getting 8+ units on the board with any of the other options may be somewhat challenging.
The other thing is if you do manage to get even 3 models into combat with the Litany of the Electromancer and 8+ units you will be dealing 9 Str 4 hits at I10, every round of melee. That is actually a considerable amount of damage as compared to their 90 pts price tag. The models are also small enough that you can hide the units using them as harassment.
I would rank them bad and questionable usefulness but I can see the glimmerings of at least a mediocre use for them. Without the litanies this unit is something like 2x the cost of what it can do.
You can get one use of each Canticle, two if you use the formation. That's not enough for me, IMHO, that's two rounds of damage. And that's assuming they get into combat to even do that. My issue isn't with their close combat ability, now that I've seen the canticles, it's that they have no way of making it there. Even something like a Land Raider isn't worth it just to carry them. At least the Dragoons get a crazy move speed plus scout to get them a turn 2 charge, potentially.
WrentheFaceless wrote:I was debating the Aquebuses vs the Arc Rifles.
Since its free, why not lol
But yea the plethora of targets to shoot at might be an advantage cause the opposing side may not know what to shoot at.
Yes. I was just thinking the same thing, literally he has 1 of everything to shoot at.
Requizen wrote:It seems kinda counterintuitive still. You want big units to get into assault and not get wiped out, but you want MSU to get the higher ranks. You can charge multiple into one assault, but still. If they were half the price like Daemons, it wouldn't be so annoying.
Enigwolf wrote:You can get one use of each Canticle, two if you use the formation. That's not enough for me, IMHO, that's two rounds of damage. And that's assuming they get into combat to even do that. My issue isn't with their close combat ability, now that I've seen the canticles, it's that they have no way of making it there. Even something like a Land Raider isn't worth it just to carry them. At least the Dragoons get a crazy move speed plus scout to get them a turn 2 charge, potentially.
Yeah, they are probably x2 what they should have costed. Why they are more that blood letters or daemonettes I have no idea.
Still I can somewhat see taking a unit or 2 of the Corpuscarii (aka shockers) to bump up your unit count and use as small MSU scoring units to take objectives near LoS blocking terrain. They have the numbers of shots and attacks that they can handle most scoring units.
There could also be something to taking a large unit of Fulgurite (aka axemen) infiltrating or transporting them in a assault flyer (caestus assault ram) and getting some multi charges off. If you can get enough units into the charge and use the Canticle of the Omnissiah to generate a bunch of Str4 hits on the units.
Getting either unit into combat is almost inevitably going to involve hiding and Shroudpsalm as you are likely to have a 2+ cover save on these units for at least a turn and they can charge through cover without problem.
I honestly think even with FnP and the canticles these guys should have been ~10 pts a piece. Perhaps they could have been more expensive if they had an assault transport or a movement bonus but as is, wow they are slow.
I scratched my head and thought the pointage was off, and went back and did the math... Holy hell you're right. 