Tactica Mechanicus - All Hail Mars! - 7th Edition Legacy Tactics

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**Super Newb**

harkequin wrote:
I dont see them needing it, ballistari can do it better anyway, I'm just pointing out why some people like the jezzails, 6's are 2 AP2 wounds at 30" range, It might suit some people.

What? Ballistari can do 'it' better? What is it? Dragoons are MUCH better at taking out MCs or TEQs with their shooting than Ballistari are. For the points. They're cheaper. 45 points a model. They're more durable. 5+ cover follows them wherever they go. A gun that causes 2 AP2 wounds on anything whenever you role a 6.

At 55 points you get ballstari with autocannons which always allow MCs and TEQs their armor saves. Not as good. Sure you can get a lascannon instead but then you're very very light walker is up to 75 points which IMHO is a bit expensive for such an easy to take down target (and then 30 points more than the Dragoon). Now yes, the Ironstrider ballistari can help deal with vehicles, but do Skitarii really have a problem with vehicle? They've got ranged haywire guns for pete's sake so I don't think so.

Clearly I like the Dragoons better lol. If someone is not taking Skitarii by themselves, I would imagine the best thing to do would be to focus on shooting and have some other imperium force have a bit of assault-y-ness if need be. That way the first three turns are BS 7, 6 and 5. Anyway in a case like that the ranged weapons Dragoons would definitely outclass the Ironstrider Ballistari. Dragoons are cheap and they help make things like Dreadknights and Wraithknights go bye bye.

**Kanluwen**

Verviedi wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
What Skitarii list are you running where you absolutely need your Dragoons to have ranged attacks instead of CC?

My meta is CC Deathstar heavy. I really don't want to be in CC, because I'm usually going to be fighting all-Daemonhammer GK PaladinStar backed up with all-Daemonhammer Strike Squads. Shooting is simply more efficient than CC against invisible Paladins, because anything they fight is going to be dead in one turn anyway.

Your "meta" is effectively our local GW.

Most of the people showing up to play aren't doing anything but using whatever they brought with them--or whatever really floated their boat for purchases to start with.

Stop acting like you need to be playing at the same level as tournaments. And stop saying "meta". It doesn't apply in this particular situation.
If you were going out to Atomic Empire or Gamer's Armory and playing there, it would be more appropriate--but effectively you're playing at one shop and home, correct?

I don't like calling people out on things like this, but quite frankly it is irksome to continually see you behaving as though you need to be preparing for a big tournament when in reality you just need to stop and ask the person you're playing against "Hey, can you not bring X?" and they likely will tone their list down.

**Verviedi**

Kanluwen wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
What Skitarii list are you running where you absolutely need your Dragoons to have ranged attacks instead of CC?

My meta is CC Deathstar heavy. I really don't want to be in CC, because I'm usually going to be fighting all-Daemonhammer GK PaladinStar backed up with all-Daemonhammer Strike Squads. Shooting is simply more efficient than CC against invisible Paladins, because anything they fight is going to be dead in one turn anyway.

Your "meta" is effectively our local GW.

Most of the people showing up to play aren't doing anything but using whatever they brought with them--or whatever really floated their boat for purchases to start with.

Stop acting like you need to be playing at the same level as tournaments. And stop saying "meta". It doesn't apply in this particular situation.
If you were going out to Atomic Empire or Gamer's Armory and playing there, it would be more appropriate--but effectively you're playing at one shop and home, correct?

I don't like calling people out on things like this, but quite frankly it is irksome to continually see you behaving as though you need to be preparing for a big tournament when in reality you just need to stop and ask the person you're playing against "Hey, can you not bring X?" and they likely will tone their list down.

I personally don't believe in making my opponents handicap themselves. In addition, the meta is bleeding into the store a bit. I do believe I've played against you (I have no idea who you are, don't want to know and hope you don't know who I am (That would be somewhat disastrous), but I have played against almost everyone).

Honestly, I'm terrible at the game. What I am good at is theorycrafting. Even if I ran a tourney list (which I did once, beat a casual list, and switched to a more interesting list because there's nothing I hate more than a curb-stomp) I would most likely still lose, because I lack experience despite playing the game for ~4 years.

I try to keep the internet seperate from my real life, and it evidently isn't working. I will replace all instances of "meta" with "local store".

**Exergy**

Verviedi wrote:
DaPino wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that special weapons on Rangers just flat out impede them.

Arc rifle and calivers are too short-ranged for them (rhey dit vanguard better) and Aqueribus' are just too damn expensive to be worth their points.

Honestly, I don't think they're too bad for the points. I always have a squad sitting on my backfield objective, and they are a nice deterrant for non-TEQs entering their sight line. A Tyranid, SM, or DEldar player worrying about essentially auto-losing wounds on a MC, MEQ or light vehicle if it enters a certain area on the board is fairly powerful.

25 points for an Aquebus certainly is too dam expensive.

Against 2+ saves they use useless. Against 4+ saves you would much rather have the extra rifles.
Consider that an Aquebus costs more than 2 additional rangers. It also replaces a rifle, so your choice is 3 rifiles vs 1 aquebus.
A 5 man with 2 Aquebuses costs as much as a 9 man Ranger squad. 2 Aquesbuses and 3 rifles vs 9 rifles.

Now the rifle has double the range. If you are going to be outside 30" then it makes sense.
If you are going to be hitting T6+ it makes some sense, but other than flyrants, how many 3+ MCs do you worry about (Wraithknight is now GC)
Light vehicles are a fair point, regular rifles cannot tough AV11 or 12, but Aquebuses dont really strip hull points that effectively. They cost a lot more than an autocannon and dont deliver the same punch.

In most cases I would rather have the extra bodies and rifles, particularly when things come to clear your objective. 9 wounds and 18 rapid fire shots vs 5 wounds and 5 shots.

**Exergy**

Whiskey144 wrote:
Wilson wrote:
Best load out for infiltrators and rust stalkers?

Also, which unit do you Prefer?

For Infiltrators, skip the Sword+Stubcarbine entirely. Yes, you get better range on your shooting and AP3 in combat, but the problem is that Infiltrators don't have assault grenades, and against MEQ they really will want to be striking simultaneously rather than last. This is especially true against, say, MEQ with Power Mauls- that Maul will be striking at S6/AP4, allowing it to deny 4+ armor and FNP, leaving the Infiltrators with their 6++ as their only defense.

Flechette Blaster+Taser Goad allows better anti-infantry shooting, actually, against T3/4 targets; an an example, against T3/5+, Stubcarbines kill 3-4 models, maybe 5 if you roll well. Flechette Blasters will actually kill 7-8 T3/5+ models, potentially wiping out most of a squad. Additionally Taser Goads make the Infiltrators S6 in combat. While they are still going to have to deal with not having assault grenades, against T3 horde infantry it's not as much of a problem. IIRC, Sicarian infantry (IE, Infiltrators/Ruststalkers) have "standard" FNP of 5+. A 30-man Guard blob with no power weapons (or at least none of the at-Initiative variety) will kill ~1.5 Sicarians before said Sicarians can strike back- so 4 of them will actually still be standing (remember, Sicarians are 2-wound models). These remaining 4 will strike with, IIRC, 4 combat attacks a piece, +1 more for the leader, so 17 attacks, at S6. It's about 11.34 hits, and will probably net around 2 "Taser strikes", which each confer two additional hits, so a total of 15.34 hits. At S6. They'll kill ~8.5 Guardsmen on the charge, and that's if they go through cover and have to strike at I1. Next round, they'll kill around 6 Guardsmen, leaving about 13-14 Guardsmen left standing.

That is, of course, if they managed to not fail the -5 Leadership test for losing combat. With the I4 of the Infiltrators, they'll probably sweep the I3 Guardsmen- more likely, in fact, if the Neurostatic Aura applies when making the test to break from combat.

Flechette Blasters are also pistols, and so combine with the Taser Goad to confer the bonus CCW bonus, unlike Stubcarbines, which are merely Assault and can't confer the bonus attack. Bonus points for the huge pile of S6 attacks, allowing them to easily wreck any vehicle with AV10 rear armor... IE, most of them.

For Ruststalkers, the Transonic Blades are kind of a trap- you don't get to keep the awesome Mindscrambler Grenades, which means that you then face the same problem Infiltrators (and many of the weaker Xeno assault units) face: you have to strike at I1 after charging through cover. Obviously, in the case of Infiltrators/Ruststalkers, the Dunestrider rule can help mitigate that by a lot- it's quite easy for Infiltrators/Ruststalkers/Dragoons to set up Turn 2 charges, thanks to that +3" of movement.

Still the grenades the Ruststalkers get are awesome, and generally speaking the +1S of the Blades isn't going to be very necessary, when they can already auto-wound on 6's, and do so at AP2. Ruststalkers with Chordclaws and Razors, and backed up by Infiltrators to provide the support of the Neurostatic Aura, might actually be able to take on a current Wraithknight.... though with the WK becoming a GC, that's probably going to change.

So yeah, keep the basic gear of the Ruststalkers as-is. The "Razors" and Chordclaws are perfectly sufficient, and are also a bit more flexible. Oh, and the Mindscrambler Grenades are boss.

Now, as far as Infiltrators vs Ruststalkers... I feel like Ruststalkers only really come into their own when they can charge things with 2+ armor, but still manage to survive into a second round of combat, or, they have something that's got AV12+ rear armor to charge and apply their Haywire Grenades to. Other than that, Infiltrators seem to offer better potential- against most non-Walker, non-Superheavy vehicles you can charge them and use the huge pile of S6 attacks to wreck it, and the Flechette Blasters are quite deadly against GEQ and the like, on top of conferring a bonus attack for being a pistol.

Infiltrators also provide the utility support of the Neurostatic Aura, and can start further up the board. I feel like the Skitarii generally want to deal with vehicles by either charging Dragoons or Infiltrators with their respective Taser weapons into them, or by using Arc Rifles from a distance. Against infantry, the preferred choice seems to be to use well-placed Infiltrator squads to debuff Leadership, and then use Rangers/Vanguard or Phosphor Onagers to shoot them till they run, or just shoot them till they die if that doesn't work.

But Ruststalkers are really awesome, being a very fast assault unit that's quite dangerous. In some ways the Infiltrators and Ruststalkers are really best used to complement each other, as the Infiltrators benefit from the Ruststalkers' assault grenades (IE, Ruststalkers charge first, then the Infiltrators charge and probably don't get punched a lot), and the both really benefit from the Neurostatic Aura.

My thinking pretty much exactly

Pistol and Taser are awesome, much better than carbine and sword

The grenades are simply too good to give up

Also the claw blade looks better than doulbe sword
pistol and taser looks better than carbine and sword

**Kanluwen**

Verviedi wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
What Skitarii list are you running where you absolutely need your Dragoons to have ranged attacks instead of CC?

My meta is CC Deathstar heavy. I really don't want to be in CC, because I'm usually going to be fighting all-Daemonhammer GK PaladinStar backed up with all-Daemonhammer Strike Squads. Shooting is simply more efficient than CC against invisible Paladins, because anything they fight is going to be dead in one turn anyway.

Your "meta" is effectively our local GW.

Most of the people showing up to play aren't doing anything but using whatever they brought with them--or whatever really floated their boat for purchases to start with.

Stop acting like you need to be playing at the same level as tournaments. And stop saying "meta". It doesn't apply in this particular situation.
If you were going out to Atomic Empire or Gamer's Armory and playing there, it would be more appropriate--but effectively you're playing at one shop and home, correct?

I don't like calling people out on things like this, but quite frankly it is irksome to continually see you behaving as though you need to be preparing for a big tournament when in reality you just need to stop and ask the person you're playing against "Hey, can you not bring X?" and they likely will tone their list down.

I personally don't believe in making my opponents handicap themselves. In addition, the meta is bleeding into the store a bit. I do believe I've played against you (I have no idea who you are and don't want to know, but I have played against almost everyone).

Nah, you haven't played against me. I'm the older brother of the guy who will run deep striking Gretchin.

Well, maybe we played a Regiments of Renown game at some point--because the only real times my 40k stuff came out were when I ran my 2x units of 8 Eldar Pathfinders, Illic Nightspear, and War Walker lists. All three of those times were against two people who remember the games and thought they were fun, if slightly irritating(due to the absurdity of the cover saves that Pathfinders had) games.

Also? It's not "making your opponents handicap themselves". You are both there to have a fun game. Do you think that everyone shows up to have curbstomp OMGWINNING games at our shop?

Honestly, I'm terrible at the game. What I am good at is theorycrafting. Even if I ran a tourney list (which I did once, beat a casual list, and switched to a more interesting list because there's nothing I hate more than a curb-stomp) I would most likely still lose, because I lack experience despite playing the game for ~4 years.

It's not a "lack of experience". It's the simple fact that even running a tournament list, there are still factors which can play against you--notably the fact that you have to roll dice.

I try to keep the internet separate from my real life, and it evidently isn't working. I will replace all instances of "meta" with "local store".

It's a problem of terminology.

A 'meta' is the overall state of the game in any given area. Your experience is part of the meta, but does not the meta make.

**Verviedi**

Kanluwen wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Verviedi wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
What Skitarii list are you running where you absolutely need your Dragoons to have ranged attacks instead of CC?

My meta is CC Deathstar heavy. I really don't want to be in CC, because I'm usually going to be fighting all-Daemonhammer GK PaladinStar backed up with all-Daemonhammer Strike Squads. Shooting is simply more efficient than CC against invisible Paladins, because anything they fight is going to be dead in one turn anyway.

Your "meta" is effectively our local GW.

Most of the people showing up to play aren't doing anything but using whatever they brought with them--or whatever really floated their boat for purchases to start with.

Stop acting like you need to be playing at the same level as tournaments. And stop saying "meta". It doesn't apply in this particular situation.
If you were going out to Atomic Empire or Gamer's Armory and playing there, it would be more appropriate--but effectively you're playing at one shop and home, correct?

I don't like calling people out on things like this, but quite frankly it is irksome to continually see you behaving as though you need to be preparing for a big tournament when in reality you just need to stop and ask the person you're playing against "Hey, can you not bring X?" and they likely will tone their list down.

I personally don't believe in making my opponents handicap themselves. In addition, the meta is bleeding into the store a bit. I do believe I've played against you (I have no idea who you are and don't want to know, but I have played against almost everyone).

Nah, you haven't played against me. I'm the older brother of the guy who will run deep striking Gretchin.

Well, maybe we played a Regiments of Renown game at some point--because the only real times my 40k stuff came out were when I ran my 2x units of 8 Eldar Pathfinders, Illic Nightspear, and War Walker lists. All three of those times were against two people who remember the games and thought they were fun, if slightly irritating(due to the absurdity of the cover saves that Pathfinders had) games.

Also? It's not "making your opponents handicap themselves". You are both there to have a fun game. Do you think that everyone shows up to have curbstomp OMGWINNING games at our shop?

Honestly, I'm terrible at the game. What I am good at is theorycrafting. Even if I ran a tourney list (which I did once, beat a casual list, and switched to a more interesting list because there's nothing I hate more than a curb-stomp) I would most likely still lose, because I lack experience despite playing the game for ~4 years.

It's not a "lack of experience". It's the simple fact that even running a tournament list, there are still factors which can play against you--notably the fact that you have to roll dice.

I try to keep the internet separate from my real life, and it evidently isn't working. I will replace all instances of "meta" with "local store".

It's a problem of terminology.

A 'meta' is the overall state of the game in any given area. Your experience is part of the meta, but does not the meta make.

Oh. Thank you. I've never played Eldar, though.

**Orock**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget the neutron laser is concussive, allowing them to shoot, say, a Wraithknight or an Imperial Knight, then you can charge it and be basically guaranteed to strike first.

3 Onagers with 3 Neutron Lasers and the Cognis Fabricator claw thingies could eat up a Wraithknight if it is dumb enough to get charged.

EDIT:
Also, I would like to say 2 things:

Armored battlegroup with Skitarii is hilarious.

I am building a Killclade because I think the models are cool. Any advice? So far I have found the infiltrators to be incredibly useful, while the Ruststalkers are mostly a big smokescreen that attracts so much firepower Turn 1 that it's not even funny, and if they're not dead, they hit like a truck.

look up the rules for concussive. It has to do a WOUND, not a wound or hullpoint. Vehicles are immune to concussive.

**Unit1126PLL**

Ah, true. Still, it will tear up everything other than an imperial knight.

**Wilson**

The more and more I read the book the more gold I find.

A unit of 3 onagers with arrays will statistically drop a flyrant, 3 hornets, wave serpent, any deldar skimmer/ flyer. Hell, it does 3.7 hull points on a jinking fire raptor.

2 units of Vanguard with double caliver in each will drop a Wraithknight with ease and don't even need to deep strike with scout. ( it is crucial to get the turn 1 alpha though. ) and if that fails, assault with the vanguard + infiltrators and smack it about at -1 toughness, WS,BS and I.

Another use for vanguard assault abilities is coupled with dragoons to double out T5 units- CM without EW and centurions for example or vanguard with infiltrators vs broadsides, xv8 suits, MEQ, Eldar Farseers etc.

Arc rifles will drop any 6 hull point vehicle in one round however range is an issue here - even with scout. This is where drop pods come in.

Still love how sick dragoons are. 4 tesla attacks at S8? Beautiful! 135 pts for 12 attacks. Dragoons also seem to somewhat replicate what lictors do( I'm a nid player) where they are cheap mobile units that can actually hold there own in cc AND go for objectives by placing large amounts on the field.

Also making an infiltrator your warlord for D3 re rollable warlord traits with PE is awesome. Stealth +'shrouded. Eternal warrior and rerollable FNP would be INSANE. Even on a T3 dude!

This book has massive potential but that turn one is so imperative to success it is frightening. I'm considering Coteaz as almost an essential addition to best secure turn 1.( as secure as possible any way. )

( literally only just got the book so please excuse me for being annoyingly excited. Damn these guys are AWESOME!!!!

**Exergy**

Wilson wrote:

Also making an infiltrator your warlord for D3 re rollable warlord traits with PE is awesome. Stealth +'shrouded. Eternal warrior and rerollable FNP would be INSANE. Even on a T3 dude!

It would be great, but on a 2W, T3, 4+ dude. It is still mighty weak. If you have PE warlord it is obviously best on a large squad. 10 Vanguard(preferably with plasma) or 10 Infiltrators

**Wilson**

Exergy wrote:
Wilson wrote:

Also making an infiltrator your warlord for D3 re rollable warlord traits with PE is awesome. Stealth +'shrouded. Eternal warrior and rerollable FNP would be INSANE. Even on a T3 dude!

It would be great, but on a 2W, T3, 4+ dude. It is still mighty weak. If you have PE warlord it is obviously best on a large squad. 10 Vanguard(preferably with plasma) or 10 Infiltrators

I think you have to take advantage of the stealth that comes with the infiltrators to make the WL as survivable as possible though and a vanguard unit will be much easier to remove from the table.
a unit of 5 infiltrators is 190 pts with refractor field on the Princep.
10 infiltrators is an insanely expensive (360 pts bare) unit. less is more in my opinion but honestly, survivable warlords and infantry are not in this codex and the only way to make the most out of a crappy situation is to make the princep your warlord. securing a 2+ cover in area/ ruin terrain, 5++ invuln and 5+ FNP vs anything S5 or less.

gives you the best shot at keeping him alive!

**obsidiankatana**

Or ally a single Inquisitor to be Warlord.

**Wilson**

Allies cant be primary therefore cant make warlord.

If you want survivable just take a primary of marines / knights.

**obsidiankatana**

Wilson wrote:
Allies cant be primary therefore cant make warlord.

If you want survivable just take a primary of marines / knights.

Re-read how Inquisitorial Detachments work.

**Unit1126PLL**

Why do the princeps get D3 warlord traits? All I see is that they only get to roll a D3 on the chart.

**Super Newb**

Wilson wrote:

This book has massive potential but that turn one is so imperative to success it is frightening. I'm considering Coteaz as almost an essential addition to best secure turn 1.( as secure as possible any way. )

More secure is Coteaz plus more! Lol. Does anyone in the Imperium give a modifier to your seize the initiative roll? Bjorn maybe? Yeah pretty sure he does. So that's +1 to seize plus a reroll! All you need is to take Coteaz by himself and whatever the smallest point size detachment of SW is that includes Bjorn. Lol.

**ultimentra**

I now reaaally want to make an "admech coteaz". Either stick him with 9 Vanguard, 2 plasma in a pod or a full squad in a Valkyrie.

**Wilson**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why do the princeps get D3 warlord traits? All I see is that they only get to roll a D3 on the chart.

ah your right. Thats confusing then. So you only get 2 warlord traits? 1-2, 3-3-4 or 5 and 6? Still thats cool!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

obsidiankatana wrote:
Wilson wrote:
Allies cant be primary therefore cant make warlord.

If you want survivable just take a primary of marines / knights.

Re-read how Inquisitorial Detachments work.

Done. Noted thanks

**SisterSydney**

No, you get one Warlord trait, as normal: on a roll of 1-2, you get trait #1; on a roll of 3-4, you get trait #2; and on a roll of 5-6, you get trait #3. Traits 4,5, and 6 aren't available to Sicarian Warlords.

I think.

**Wilson**

Well i am confused for sure. Haha. Ive emailed GW faq but i doubt ill get an answer. You know what they are like...

**Unit1126PLL**

Seems pretty clear to me - Sicarians only have access to the first 3 warlord traits, because they only roll a D3 on the chart. They still only generate one trait.

**Massaen**

Exactly like the harlequins - you roll a D3 for some characters (and thus can only access the first 3 traits) or a D6 for others (and therefore can get the lot).

I like the limit to D3 myself as you get a far greater chance to get the one you want.

Question time - Dune Crawlers...

I am running a unit of 3 at present as follows...
1 - Icarus + cognis stubber
2 - Icarus + cognis stubber
3 - TL phosphor blaster + cognis stubber + cognis manipulator

Thoughts on this load out? The Icarus are enough to scare just about any flyer (3 seals the deal vs AV12 but 2 is almost enough) while the phosphor blaster potentially helps with absorbing hits to the unit, marking land targets once the AA is done with and adding versatility to the unit late game.

Running 3 Icarus (along with my adamantine lance) is a no brainer but I worry that 400 points is to much to be had snap shooting at things when I face an all bike eldar/SM army or anything else without flyers/FMC/skimmers

**Unit1126PLL**

I think I mentioned before that my unit of 3 onagers is going to be 3x Neutron Guns, 3x extra Cognis heavy stubber, 3x cognis fabricator claw thingy, and the mindscanner probe.

Walk them up alongside my killclade formation (or in front of them) and go for the gut.

3x Icarus seems mediocre - I know everyone is going googly-eyed over them, but I think that AP4 doesn't cut it against FMCs and Str 7 doesn't cut it against flyers. Yes, it has one AP2 shot. Whoopee. :/

**Massaen**

15 shots at S6 with ignores cover and a BS boost from an imperative will drop 3hp on any av12 flyer with ease. That's not including the auto cannon or missile launcher. That's huge!

Even flyrants won't like that and take 2-3 wounds after saves from just the rockets. That's fantastic! Realistically these things kill flying things dead.

**Unit1126PLL**

Massaen wrote:
15 shots at S6 with ignores cover and a BS boost from an imperative will drop 3hp on any av12 flyer with ease. That's not including the auto cannon or missile launcher. That's huge!

Even flyrants won't like that and take 2-3 wounds after saves from just the rockets. That's fantastic! Realistically these things kill flying things dead.

Well three of them do, and three of them are 195 points minimum. Tell me, what do they do to any ground target ever for nearly 200 points?

Also at BS5 the rockets only do an average of 2 hull points to a plane that is armor 12.

**herohammer**

I just bought a warhound titan for the price of a knight and I am wondering whom to run as a CAD alongside my skitarii to unlock the LoW choice needed to take it. I am currently leaning towards Militarum Tempestus with a 3Xplasma gun/plasma pistol/medic command squad so I will have 2 units of plasma spam with PE combined with my warlord's unit of vanguard, with a couple units of either suicide melta squads or hotshot volleyguns to meet minimum CAD requirments.

I don't want to run the D and so for weapons I was thinking 2 of the 15 shot s6 ap3 guns. That option can hurt flyrants or lighter flyers like eldar and Deldar ones and also can deal with eldar bikes, land transports, and MEQ nicely.

**gameandwatch**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Massaen wrote:
15 shots at S6 with ignores cover and a BS boost from an imperative will drop 3hp on any av12 flyer with ease. That's not including the auto cannon or missile launcher. That's huge!

Even flyrants won't like that and take 2-3 wounds after saves from just the rockets. That's fantastic! Realistically these things kill flying things dead.

Well three of them do, and three of them are 195 points minimum. Tell me, what do they do to any ground target ever for nearly 200 points?

Also at BS5 the rockets only do an average of 2 hull points to a plane that is armor 12.

Well, my question to that is, what would you do without them against a 3-5 flyrant list? Or a bunch of flyers in general?

On a different topic, I have been eyeballing the formations (more to figure out how I want to field my ruststalkers and infiltrators) just to really dissect how usable they are.

Ignoring the maniple, lets start with the killclade:

Bad stuff first:
A 4 unit tax is definitely expensive and is a large board imprint, but worst of all, not being part of a skitarii detachment means they lose crusader and scout. This is very important and will reflect how we look at the good.

The good:
12" infiltrator bubble: This is a fantastic buff, considering the bubble affects models and not units, this can really alter the survivability of your army by blanketing the enemies line in -1WS, I and LD bust most importantly, -1BS which is what most of the skitarii army is vulnerable to, massed ranged S6-7. The rustalkers also gain the ability to run and charge once per game after turn 1. Once per game is kinda meh, but considering most of these guys will likely be left in the open after their first charge maybe it isn't such a big deal. What stinks is what is mentioned in Bad Stuff, losing crusader and scout stinks as this would make a turn 2 charge pretty much guaranteed, but even with the the worst rolls, dunestrider thankfully makes up for this putting them a minimum of 26" across the board before charge rolls are made.

Ironstrider Cavaliers:
The Bad:
One thing for sure that stinks is that the formation MUST be placed in reserve, hurting the formations flexibility as a whole. Second big issue coming from the same problem is one reserve roll for the entire formation. Now, you can mitigate this with a comms relay or something, but still gives the chance of the entire formation being delayed which especially hurts the dragoons. Dragoons have dunestrider, so if they are to deploy in a normal detachment, they would instead have a near guaranteed second turn charge with scout, crusader and dunstrider. Last bad thing is the size of the model and its base. This limits deployment options when they actually do enter and your opponent can then counter this formation by deploying blob units or infiltrators along the sides of their deployment zone. Now where some confusion comes in with the formation is where they all come in: do you roll for one side for the whole formation since you roll once for their reserve roll? Or do you roll individually to see what side they arrive from?

The Good: Now, to mitigate what was just labeled in the bad, thankfully this formation rolls to see if it enters starting turn 1. A turn 1 flank alphastrike is an endeering proposition, and really messes up your opponents deployment options. As well, if you were to arrive turn 1, this near guarantees a second turn charge with the dragoons. This formation also gives you access to more of either unit, especially dragoons considering a normal detachment only has 2 fast attack slots.

The Meh?
The formation's special rules beyond the outflank rule are somewhat situational and not necessarily going to be a benefit in every game. THe shooting through your own units bit, will only apply if you are intentionally screening your ballistari with your dragoons, and reroll wounds on a character and their unit may or may not be useful.

Overall, both seem applicable, I personally would not use the ironstrider one as it can be too chancy and I want my dragoons on the board for those tasty turn 2 charges. I like the killclade the more I look at it, even though they lose crusader and scout, man oh man can they cover a HUGE distance very quickly.

**Super Newb**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Massaen wrote:
15 shots at S6 with ignores cover and a BS boost from an imperative will drop 3hp on any av12 flyer with ease. That's not including the auto cannon or missile launcher. That's huge!

Even flyrants won't like that and take 2-3 wounds after saves from just the rockets. That's fantastic! Realistically these things kill flying things dead.

Well three of them do, and three of them are 195 points minimum.

Base price without any upgrades for three is 270. That's before the anti aircraft guns are even taken.

**Leth**

I plan to run three but how they are equiped and if they are in a unit will depend.

It is a tough call but I will definitely have to see what the post eldar meta looks like before I finish kitting them out