tneva82 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Mortarion feels busted to me - but I guess there is a spirit of wait and see. I feel much like Ghaz and the Ctan's though, you can't ignore him because he's standing on the objectives, chopping anything vaguely expensive into little bits. Doing 200-300 points a turn worth of damage isn't going to be an especially high bar unless your opponent is running extreme MSU.

Killing him with with average rolling MMs is going to be the equivalent of doing about 50 wounds on a regular Knight. The problem is going to be that if you do throw all your heavy guns/attacks into him for say 12-14 wounds, its effectively a waste of a turn which may cost you the game. Meanwhile I'm not sure you can go "I'll deal with him in turn 3 I guess" because you need that huge amount of firepower to really do anything.

An MM expects to do something like 0.58 damage in 24" - rising to a mighty 1 damage in 12". Obviously you can roll above average, but I think it indicates just how many guns you'd expect to have to bring to bear. Unlike other units you also can't just chuck a load of D2 weapon shots in and hope some go through. (Well, you can but its very inefficient.)

As said, I guess we'll see.

Really no 490pt model should be capable of defeat in a single turn. That's the large problem with 40k. I take 500pt model and end up going second. That model dies turn 1 and I start the game down 25% of my army. That's dumb.

But losing 25% of tanks and infantry is fine?

"If you honor what they fight for, yes!"
As Jidmah said, the smaller tanks/infantry have an easier time hiding, but it really shouldn't be easy to kill 25% of anything turn one. This is the main problem with IGOUGO.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

broxus wrote:
Sigh played against imperial fists with several Redemptors today. I had
Typhus
Plaguecaster
4x units of PM with Blight launchers and flails
2x units of Poxwalkers (10 models)
2x fleshmowers
Plague surgeon (+3” Helm)
Blightspawn (anti charge relic)
2x PBC with entropy cannons
Unit of 3 deathshroud
5x blightlords

I felt like the ending of the last samurai. They are just so slow still and can’t charge reliability. Just don’t see how we can compete agains shooting armies. The major hit to our shooting output hurts bad.

Is Mortarian going to be mandatory?

Anything from your list perform well?

Yea the PBC seem to be auto includes for me. For sure Super good with the upgrade entropy cannons, BS3, and the new mortar Strategem. The new Strat is very good vs Eradicators. Not to mention the mortal wound splash damage. Everything else was meh to say the least. So slow and no way to help get into combat. Your terminators need to pray for a 9+ roll in deep strike (28% chance) and I think they never made it.

I think I have something like 10x7-man Plague Marine squads in various states of painting that are now illegal.

 Prometheum5 wrote:
I think I have something like 10x7-man Plague Marine squads in various states of painting that are now illegal.

How many of them work if you shuffle equipment around? I'm assuming the loadouts are the problem, as you can still field 7-man squads.

I think people are over reacting against Mortarion. He will absolutely struggle against may armies such as AdMech, Salamanders, imperial fists, necrons, and any other high volume of attack shooting army.

People forget he only has a 3+ save and damage 1 weapons with -1 AP are the way to really hurt him. Necron warriors and immortals will excel at this. He is also very vulnerable to mortal wounds and literally can’t hide anywhere on the table due to those wings. Finally, I don’t think most consider he degrades quickly and doesn’t stay the same top profile.

He is durable, does solid damage, but has lots of counters. He should be tough I don’t think he is even close to broken. He has the same counters the entire DG codex has of high volume of shots at -1/-2 AP. That being said some lists will really struggle against him, but that is the case for all armies. 40K has a great deal of rock, paper, scissors.

 mokoshkana wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Mortarion feels busted to me - but I guess there is a spirit of wait and see. I feel much like Ghaz and the Ctan's though, you can't ignore him because he's standing on the objectives, chopping anything vaguely expensive into little bits. Doing 200-300 points a turn worth of damage isn't going to be an especially high bar unless your opponent is running extreme MSU.

Killing him with with average rolling MMs is going to be the equivalent of doing about 50 wounds on a regular Knight. The problem is going to be that if you do throw all your heavy guns/attacks into him for say 12-14 wounds, its effectively a waste of a turn which may cost you the game. Meanwhile I'm not sure you can go "I'll deal with him in turn 3 I guess" because you need that huge amount of firepower to really do anything.

An MM expects to do something like 0.58 damage in 24" - rising to a mighty 1 damage in 12". Obviously you can roll above average, but I think it indicates just how many guns you'd expect to have to bring to bear. Unlike other units you also can't just chuck a load of D2 weapon shots in and hope some go through. (Well, you can but its very inefficient.)

As said, I guess we'll see.

Really no 490pt model should be capable of defeat in a single turn. That's the large problem with 40k. I take 500pt model and end up going second. That model dies turn 1 and I start the game down 25% of my army. That's dumb.

But losing 25% of tanks and infantry is fine?

"If you honor what they fight for, yes!"
As Jidmah said, the smaller tanks/infantry have an easier time hiding, but it really shouldn't be easy to kill 25% of anything turn one. This is the main problem with IGOUGO.

Honestly, I have yet to see it happen in 9th. Turn 1 you can lose an infiltrating squad or a flyer. Rarely more than that.
Which is why not gunning down a 500 point model in a single turn is fine. Problem is that some lists simply can't put it down at all

Spoletta wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Mortarion feels busted to me - but I guess there is a spirit of wait and see. I feel much like Ghaz and the Ctan's though, you can't ignore him because he's standing on the objectives, chopping anything vaguely expensive into little bits. Doing 200-300 points a turn worth of damage isn't going to be an especially high bar unless your opponent is running extreme MSU.

Killing him with with average rolling MMs is going to be the equivalent of doing about 50 wounds on a regular Knight. The problem is going to be that if you do throw all your heavy guns/attacks into him for say 12-14 wounds, its effectively a waste of a turn which may cost you the game. Meanwhile I'm not sure you can go "I'll deal with him in turn 3 I guess" because you need that huge amount of firepower to really do anything.

An MM expects to do something like 0.58 damage in 24" - rising to a mighty 1 damage in 12". Obviously you can roll above average, but I think it indicates just how many guns you'd expect to have to bring to bear. Unlike other units you also can't just chuck a load of D2 weapon shots in and hope some go through. (Well, you can but its very inefficient.)

As said, I guess we'll see.

Really no 490pt model should be capable of defeat in a single turn. That's the large problem with 40k. I take 500pt model and end up going second. That model dies turn 1 and I start the game down 25% of my army. That's dumb.

But losing 25% of tanks and infantry is fine?

"If you honor what they fight for, yes!"
As Jidmah said, the smaller tanks/infantry have an easier time hiding, but it really shouldn't be easy to kill 25% of anything turn one. This is the main problem with IGOUGO.

Honestly, I have yet to see it happen in 9th. Turn 1 you can lose an infiltrating squad or a flyer. Rarely more than that.
Which is why not gunning down a 500 point model in a single turn is fine. Problem is that some lists simply can't put it down at all

That is no different than if you face someone who decides to go all armor or all horde infantry. Certain lists will struggle against certain lists. As I said necrons could easily blow Morty off the table.

One unit of warriors with gauss rifles alone will do on average of 10 wounds alone using 3 CP. (1CP strategem disintegration capacitor, 1 CP strategem relentless assault, and 1 CP Talent for annihilation. I’m failing to see the problem. This is just one unit of warriors!!

Here's a question that I haven't seen asked (apologies if I missed it). I have to assume that the latest PL/point FAQ supersedes the DG codex. Given that, how can there be changes before the codex has ever seen play? Did play tester feedback only come into account after the book was published?

 mokoshkana wrote:
Here's a question that I haven't seen asked (apologies if I missed it). I have to assume that the latest PL/point FAQ supersedes the DG codex. Given that, how can there be changes before the codex has ever seen play? Did play tester feedback only come into account after the book was published?

Are the points in the Dex different from the MFM?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Here's a question that I haven't seen asked (apologies if I missed it). I have to assume that the latest PL/point FAQ supersedes the DG codex. Given that, how can there be changes before the codex has ever seen play? Did play tester feedback only come into account after the book was published?

Are the points in the Dex different from the MFM?

They're the same AFAIK

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Here's a question that I haven't seen asked (apologies if I missed it). I have to assume that the latest PL/point FAQ supersedes the DG codex. Given that, how can there be changes before the codex has ever seen play? Did play tester feedback only come into account after the book was published?

Are the points in the Dex different from the MFM?

Unsure about points, but PL is definitely different. For instance, 5x Blightlords are 10 PL in the codex and 11 PL in the FAQ. Plague Marines are 6 PL for five and 12 PL for ten, which is the max in the codex, and they have a range of PL going up to 20 PM for 20 PL in the FAQ.

Help me out if I'm missing something obvious.

Necron Warriors with flayers:
Outside 12", you have 1 S4 AP1 shot. For 13 points.
1*2/3(could be worse)*1/6*1/2*2/3=0.037 wounds.

So it takes 27 Necron Warriors, costing 351 points, to do a wound.
Half that in 12".
With reapers you'd be wounding on 5s, so halve again to something vaguely sensible - but still sort of improbable.
I.e. you teleport 20 reapers into range with mandatory relic.
40*2/3*1/3*1/2*2/3=3 wounds.

Arguably point for point this is a good return (260 points doing 82ish points of damage) - but Mortarion isn't obviously shaking in his boots and I'm not sure how you can reliably get say 60-100 Necron Warriors into 12" for a couple of turns.

Yes you can buff the warriors - but then the DG player is probably going to get a -1 to hit up if they go first or you don't kill on turn 1.

Tyel wrote:
Help me out if I'm missing something obvious.

Necron Warriors with flayers:
Outside 12", you have 1 S4 AP1 shot. For 13 points.
1*2/3(could be worse)*1/6*1/2*2/3=0.037 wounds.

So it takes 27 Necron Warriors, costing 351 points, to do a wound.
Half that in 12".
With reapers you'd be wounding on 5s, so halve again to something vaguely sensible - but still sort of improbable.
I.e. you teleport 20 reapers into range with mandatory relic.
40*2/3*1/3*1/2*2/3=3 wounds.

Arguably point for point this is a good return (260 points doing 82ish points of damage) - but Mortarion isn't obviously shaking in his boots and I'm not sure how you can reliably get say 60-100 Necron Warriors into 12" for a couple of turns.

Yes you can buff the warriors - but then the DG player is probably going to get a -1 to hit up if they go first or you don't kill on turn 1.

See above. Run the 15” version dynasty of the guns. Also, Mortarion is coming to you he isn’t a range guy he wants to get close. Don’t worry about trying to reach him. The example I listed shows how to out 10 wounds on mortarian with one unit of warriors and only 3 CP. you would still have 1740pts left to do more wounds. Sounds pretty to kill him to me

Right, reshuffling things got me really thinking, why should I? I mean covid going to be around for 2021, rules faqs etc are not a logical commitment from the publisher and each change is, well not that fun anymore, I mean why even bother keeping up with the updates while the world is on hold, its not like gaming is going anywhere for another year?

I mean should not in this day and age the publishers make it more fun and less hassle to play their contents just to keep us entertained? A box with dark imperium half is what I expected and would be a great starter for people too, instead we got this such weird patrol and a new philosophy of use what's in the box only... but then they supply incomplete unit boxes so you need to buy multiple and THAT is VERY annoying.

Instead of being exited with one of my favourite factions I feel like that I don't want to mess about with it anymore. So won't.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Right, reshuffling things got me really thinking, why should I? I mean covid going to be around for 2021, rules faqs etc are not a logical commitment from the publisher and each change is, well not that fun anymore, I mean why even bother keeping up with the updates while the world is on hold, its not like gaming is going anywhere for another year?

I mean should not in this day and age the publishers make it more fun and less hassle to play their contents just to keep us entertained? A box with dark imperium half is what I expected and would be a great starter for people too, instead we got this such weird patrol and a new philosophy of use what's in the box only... but then they supply incomplete unit boxes so you need to buy multiple and THAT is VERY annoying.

Instead of being exited with one of my favourite factions I feel like that I don't want to mess about with it anymore. So won't.

Don't do things that don't make you happy. Your time is precious, so use it wisely.
That said, different strokes for different folks. I am quite excited for this codex to drop, and I don't care one bit about the new restrictions. Adapt and overcome!

 NAVARRO wrote:
Right, reshuffling things got me really thinking, why should I? I mean covid going to be around for 2021, rules faqs etc are not a logical commitment from the publisher and each change is, well not that fun anymore, I mean why even bother keeping up with the updates while the world is on hold, its not like gaming is going anywhere for another year?

I mean should not in this day and age the publishers make it more fun and less hassle to play their contents just to keep us entertained? A box with dark imperium half is what I expected and would be a great starter for people too, instead we got this such weird patrol and a new philosophy of use what's in the box only... but then they supply incomplete unit boxes so you need to buy multiple and THAT is VERY annoying.

Instead of being exited with one of my favourite factions I feel like that I don't want to mess about with it anymore. So won't.

Me and my friends play at eachother's houses.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Right, reshuffling things got me really thinking, why should I? I mean covid going to be around for 2021, rules faqs etc are not a logical commitment from the publisher and each change is, well not that fun anymore, I mean why even bother keeping up with the updates while the world is on hold, its not like gaming is going anywhere for another year?

Maybe not in　uk and us but in other countries yes.

Also with　vaccines starting i suspect　in　half a year or so with most in danger groups　vaccinated(well in　rich worlds. Poor 3rd country ones are going to be left behind for a while) restrictions will be lifted. Maybe even sooner.

broxus wrote:
See above. Run the 15” version dynasty of the guns. Also, Mortarion is coming to you he isn’t a range guy he wants to get close. Don’t worry about trying to reach him. The example I listed shows how to out 10 wounds on mortarian with one unit of warriors and only 3 CP. you would still have 1740pts left to do more wounds. Sounds pretty to kill him to me

As I see it, 40 reapers with stratagems.

40 shots, 6s auto wound and are an extra hit.
So you'd get 33.3 hits of which 6.6 auto wound.
Of remainder 26.6 hits you get 8.8 wounds and you almost certainly get 3 6s for the cap of 3 mortal wounds.
So we've got 15.5 wounds running into a 4++ save, for 8 wounds and 3 mortal wounds.
So 11 onto 5+++ FNP gives you 7.333~ wounds.

Undoubtedly very impressive for a 260 point unit but I'm still not sure its curtains. And certainly many factions can't easily replicate this.

Tyel wrote:

broxus wrote:
See above. Run the 15” version dynasty of the guns. Also, Mortarion is coming to you he isn’t a range guy he wants to get close. Don’t worry about trying to reach him. The example I listed shows how to out 10 wounds on mortarian with one unit of warriors and only 3 CP. you would still have 1740pts left to do more wounds. Sounds pretty to kill him to me

As I see it, 40 reapers with stratagems.

40 shots, 6s auto wound and are an extra hit.
So you'd get 33.3 hits of which 6.6 auto wound.
Of remainder 26.6 hits you get 8.8 wounds and you almost certainly get 3 6s for the cap of 3 mortal wounds.
So we've got 15.5 wounds running into a 4++ save, for 8 wounds and 3 mortal wounds.
So 11 onto 5+++ FNP gives you 7.333~ wounds.

Undoubtedly very impressive for a 260 point unit but I'm still not sure its curtains. And certainly many factions can't easily replicate this.

Some factions can mortal wound spam, which completely bypasses everything but a 5+++ FNP. Mortartion can be killed, just not instantly as he can in the current edition. This is a good change.

Tyel wrote:

broxus wrote:
See above. Run the 15” version dynasty of the guns. Also, Mortarion is coming to you he isn’t a range guy he wants to get close. Don’t worry about trying to reach him. The example I listed shows how to out 10 wounds on mortarian with one unit of warriors and only 3 CP. you would still have 1740pts left to do more wounds. Sounds pretty to kill him to me

As I see it, 40 reapers with stratagems.

40 shots, 6s auto wound and are an extra hit.
So you'd get 33.3 hits of which 6.6 auto wound.
Of remainder 26.6 hits you get 8.8 wounds and you almost certainly get 3 6s for the cap of 3 mortal wounds.
So we've got 15.5 wounds running into a 4++ save, for 8 wounds and 3 mortal wounds.
So 11 onto 5+++ FNP gives you 7.333~ wounds.

Undoubtedly very impressive for a 260 point unit but I'm still not sure its curtains. And certainly many factions can't easily replicate this.

Many factions can't handle the current SM and Necrons. The power level of the game has risen once again so now we must wait until we get our updates all over again.

Tyel wrote:

broxus wrote:
See above. Run the 15” version dynasty of the guns. Also, Mortarion is coming to you he isn’t a range guy he wants to get close. Don’t worry about trying to reach him. The example I listed shows how to out 10 wounds on mortarian with one unit of warriors and only 3 CP. you would still have 1740pts left to do more wounds. Sounds pretty to kill him to me

As I see it, 40 reapers with stratagems.

40 shots, 6s auto wound and are an extra hit.
So you'd get 33.3 hits of which 6.6 auto wound.
Of remainder 26.6 hits you get 8.8 wounds and you almost certainly get 3 6s for the cap of 3 mortal wounds.
So we've got 15.5 wounds running into a 4++ save, for 8 wounds and 3 mortal wounds.
So 11 onto 5+++ FNP gives you 7.333~ wounds.

Undoubtedly very impressive for a 260 point unit but I'm still not sure its curtains. And certainly many factions can't easily replicate this.

Yea my point is it isnt all doom and gloom. There are lots of ways to deal with Mortarian. He will be amazingly good in some matchups and get slaughtered in others. Getting no benefits of cover is really a big deal!! There are many armies and lists that can shoot him off the table the first turn. If you are running a bunch a STR 4 or STR 5 high AP melee weapons and expect to kill him you may find you need to rebalance your list with some shooting. The meta has gone hard melee in 9th so this could help restore it back to more balanced lists.

broxus wrote:

Tyel wrote:

broxus wrote:
See above. Run the 15” version dynasty of the guns. Also, Mortarion is coming to you he isn’t a range guy he wants to get close. Don’t worry about trying to reach him. The example I listed shows how to out 10 wounds on mortarian with one unit of warriors and only 3 CP. you would still have 1740pts left to do more wounds. Sounds pretty to kill him to me

As I see it, 40 reapers with stratagems.

40 shots, 6s auto wound and are an extra hit.
So you'd get 33.3 hits of which 6.6 auto wound.
Of remainder 26.6 hits you get 8.8 wounds and you almost certainly get 3 6s for the cap of 3 mortal wounds.
So we've got 15.5 wounds running into a 4++ save, for 8 wounds and 3 mortal wounds.
So 11 onto 5+++ FNP gives you 7.333~ wounds.

Undoubtedly very impressive for a 260 point unit but I'm still not sure its curtains. And certainly many factions can't easily replicate this.

Yea my point is it isnt all doom and gloom. There are lots of ways to deal with Mortarian. He will be amazingly good in some matchups and get slaughtered in others. Getting no benefits of cover is really a big deal!! There are many armies and lists that can shoot him off the table the first turn. If you are running a bunch a STR 4 or STR 5 high AP melee weapons and expect to kill him you may find you need to rebalance your list with some shooting. The meta has gone hard melee in 9th so this could help restore it back to more balanced lists.

If I play against an army that's able to kill him in turn 1, I'm gonna put him in reserve.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
I think I have something like 10x7-man Plague Marine squads in various states of painting that are now illegal.

How many of them work if you shuffle equipment around? I'm assuming the loadouts are the problem, as you can still field 7-man squads.

Like none! They're all older models so it's double special weapon squads. I guess I can swap plasma/flamer guys between squads and have one of each? None of the heavy weapon options exist for vintage models so kinda hosed there.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Right, reshuffling things got me really thinking, why should I? I mean covid going to be around for 2021, rules faqs etc are not a logical commitment from the publisher and each change is, well not that fun anymore, I mean why even bother keeping up with the updates while the world is on hold, its not like gaming is going anywhere for another year?

I mean should not in this day and age the publishers make it more fun and less hassle to play their contents just to keep us entertained? A box with dark imperium half is what I expected and would be a great starter for people too, instead we got this such weird patrol and a new philosophy of use what's in the box only... but then they supply incomplete unit boxes so you need to buy multiple and THAT is VERY annoying.

Instead of being exited with one of my favourite factions I feel like that I don't want to mess about with it anymore. So won't.

Yeah exactly man.
Im really glad I didint bother with the last CA book.
Its completely invalid less than 6 months down the line and I haven't really got to play a single game other than trying to teach my missus (spoiler. It didin't work..)

 Argive wrote:
Yeah exactly man.
Im really glad I didint bother with the last CA book.
Its completely invalid less than 6 months down the line and I haven't really got to play a single game other than trying to teach my missus (spoiler. It didin't work..)

Quick fact check: That is incorrect! The Grand Tournament 2020 mission pack half of the last CA bundle is still perfectly valid and has not been invalidated.

I think most people bought it for the field manual.
The mission pack is still decent I'll grant but still..

 Prometheum5 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
I think I have something like 10x7-man Plague Marine squads in various states of painting that are now illegal.

How many of them work if you shuffle equipment around? I'm assuming the loadouts are the problem, as you can still field 7-man squads.

Like none! They're all older models so it's double special weapon squads. I guess I can swap plasma/flamer guys between squads and have one of each? None of the heavy weapon options exist for vintage models so kinda hosed there.

I hear you on that. It makes it so all you can do is cut down on your number of squads to add extra bodies to current squads and still have the same amount of special weapons but waste points from previous set ups. GW really screwed it this time. It's pretty annoying dumb.

 Argive wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Right, reshuffling things got me really thinking, why should I? I mean covid going to be around for 2021, rules faqs etc are not a logical commitment from the publisher and each change is, well not that fun anymore, I mean why even bother keeping up with the updates while the world is on hold, its not like gaming is going anywhere for another year?

I mean should not in this day and age the publishers make it more fun and less hassle to play their contents just to keep us entertained? A box with dark imperium half is what I expected and would be a great starter for people too, instead we got this such weird patrol and a new philosophy of use what's in the box only... but then they supply incomplete unit boxes so you need to buy multiple and THAT is VERY annoying.

Instead of being exited with one of my favourite factions I feel like that I don't want to mess about with it anymore. So won't.

Yeah exactly man.
Im really glad I didint bother with the last CA book.
Its completely invalid less than 6 months down the line and I haven't really got to play a single game other than trying to teach my missus (spoiler. It didin't work..)

Invalidated how? The missions are still there and better than ones in rulebook.

Or you playing without any missions?-)

 Jidmah wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think most people bought it for the field manual.
The mission pack is still decent I'll grant but still..

I don't think anyone bought it for the field manual, points are easily found in battlescribe and on other parts of the internets. The main advantage is having a small rulebook with ring binding and the improved missions/secondaries.

Pretty much this. I use the Chapter Approved every time I play while the Field Manual just sits and gathers dust.

broxus wrote:
I think people are over reacting against Mortarion. He will absolutely struggle against may armies such as AdMech, Salamanders, imperial fists, necrons, and any other high volume of attack shooting army.

People forget he only has a 3+ save and damage 1 weapons with -1 AP are the way to really hurt him. Necron warriors and immortals will excel at this. He is also very vulnerable to mortal wounds and literally can’t hide anywhere on the table due to those wings. Finally, I don’t think most consider he degrades quickly and doesn’t stay the same top profile.

He is durable, does solid damage, but has lots of counters. He should be tough I don’t think he is even close to broken. He has the same counters the entire DG codex has of high volume of shots at -1/-2 AP. That being said some lists will really struggle against him, but that is the case for all armies. 40K has a great deal of rock, paper, scissors.

The same was true for the Broviathan list. Or the Triple Riptide with a gazillion shield drones. Or -4 to hit Eldar Flyer spam.

People were able to beat those lists and counters did exist. But that doesn't mean they weren't both a) unbalanced across the broader spectrum of 40K armies beyond their specific rock-scissor counters and b) extremely unfun experience that hurt the game irrespective of win-rates / tournament performance, as non-interactive armies/game pieces in 40K usually are.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think most people bought it for the field manual.
The mission pack is still decent I'll grant but still..

I don't think anyone bought it for the field manual, points are easily found in battlescribe and on other parts of the internets. The main advantage is having a small rulebook with ring binding and the improved missions/secondaries.

I imagine quite a few people bought it to get the updated points values, as you needed those even if you weren't planning on entering a tournament to use the scenarios - despite what the people on Dakka think, not everyone is a pirate.

I know it was on my "to buy" list for the points, but at a low priority as I have no idea when I'll be able to get a game in. Of course, with the recent points PDF, I now only need to pick it up if I want the scenarios - or I find it in a sale somewhere.

you can expect to see another CA before we get out of the pandemic

 kodos wrote:
you can expect to see another CA before we get out of the pandemic

Of that, I have no doubt. It'll be interesting to see when in 2021 they release one, though, even if just as a scenario pack - mid-to-late summer, to line up with the debut of 9th, or Nov/Dec time, as they were in 8th.

I am going to wait and see with Mortarion before judging. Eldar Flyer spam was annoying because they could stack -1 to hits(and deny shooting altogether for some armies), something Mortarion can't do. Shield Drones were annoying since they took damage you were trying to do to a unit away from that unit and onto themselves so you could never bracket the actual target, whereas you will always be getting something through with Mortarion when you damage him(he can never reduce damage below 1). Even with the Leviathans they were nasty long range whereas Mortarion really needs to get up close and personal to do anything and everyone and the next table can target him due to his size. So I disagree that Mortarion is non-interactive. He is hardy as hell, but when you are engaging with him you will always be doing something to him.

He will be powerful, but whether he is this insta-win unit remains to be seen. Maybe I am just a bit more optimistic as we are a bit more used to center piece powerful units in AoS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:

 kodos wrote:
you can expect to see another CA before we get out of the pandemic

Of that, I have no doubt. It'll be interesting to see when in 2021 they release one, though, even if just as a scenario pack - mid-to-late summer, to line up with the debut of 9th, or Nov/Dec time, as they were in 8th.

I get the feeling they are moving CA into the same slot as GHB(basically summer). I imagine having CA in December probably didn't help selling units when people were waiting for point adjustments and summer is often a new edition release window so why not have the CA at the same time to have everything synchronized.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think most people bought it for the field manual.
The mission pack is still decent I'll grant but still..

I don't think anyone bought it for the field manual, points are easily found in battlescribe and on other parts of the internets. The main advantage is having a small rulebook with ring binding and the improved missions/secondaries.

Yeah, if I'd know the first CA was going to have everything out of the main book that actually matters to play the game I'd have thought harder about buying Indominus.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think most people bought it for the field manual.
The mission pack is still decent I'll grant but still..

I don't think anyone bought it for the field manual, points are easily found in battlescribe and on other parts of the internets. The main advantage is having a small rulebook with ring binding and the improved missions/secondaries.

I imagine quite a few people bought it to get the updated points values, as you needed those even if you weren't planning on entering a tournament to use the scenarios - despite what the people on Dakka think, not everyone is a pirate.

I know it was on my "to buy" list for the points, but at a low priority as I have no idea when I'll be able to get a game in. Of course, with the recent points PDF, I now only need to pick it up if I want the scenarios - or I find it in a sale somewhere.

In a group of almost 20 players, I'm literally the only one to buy one, and I did so because it was a cheaper and smaller version of the BRB. Next to no one is still building lists without software support, and all that software has points included.
My main reason to flip through the book (and it's predecessor) was for looking up points during discussions. It's by far the most useless thing GW printed, and providing it online for free was a great move.


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 Eldarsif wrote:
I am going to wait and see with Mortarion before judging. Eldar Flyer spam was annoying because they could stack -1 to hits(and deny shooting altogether for some armies), something Mortarion can't do. Shield Drones were annoying since they took damage you were trying to do to a unit away from that unit and onto themselves so you could never bracket the actual target, whereas you will always be getting something through with Mortarion when you damage him(he can never reduce damage below 1). Even with the Leviathans they were nasty long range whereas Mortarion really needs to get up close and personal to do anything and everyone and the next table can target him due to his size. So I disagree that Mortarion is non-interactive. He is hardy as hell, but when you are engaging with him you will always be doing something to him.

He will be powerful, but whether he is this insta-win unit remains to be seen. Maybe I am just a bit more optimistic as we are a bit more used to center piece powerful units in AoS.

I agree. People were crying how Thrakka was unkillable and breaking the game, then people complained about the invincible Void Dragon, now they are complaining about Mortarion. When a melee threat doesn't just lay down and die if they apply all their guns to it, people just lose their minds.

Void Dragon can also spam the old mortal wounds at range, making it particularly troublesome. Not to mention Living Metal healing a wound each turn, and some chance of greater healing by wrecking a vehicle.

The healing is the main issue, as if you can only reliably damage me in one phase, I’m getting no less than a third back each turn - and if you were particularly unlucky, I can undo all the damage inflicted.

Which is a similar issue. I played against some of those 3 C'tan lists that all only take 3 damage a phase and heal one.

Are they particularly OP? Probably not. Arguably, they aren't even close to the best Necron list as far as overall tournament winnings go.

But it reduces the game of 40K to essentially a pre-game math/spread-sheet exercise on dice allocation on whether you can get it done or not. And if the answer for your army to that simple "math problem" is no, you're out of luck. And even if the answer is yes, it's dumb as feth.

 kodos wrote:
you can expect to see another CA before we get out of the pandemic

Yep.

But 2020 gave plenty of gaming already during that time.

So I've had a bit more time to digest the rules and whilst I'm excited to try out some new lists, and it looks like Death Guard are, at least for the time being, going to be strongly competitive there's some really wonky things in this new codex I just don't understand the design choices.

There's so many counter-intuitive restrictions on what units get what special rules. I mean, I can understand the reason for introducing <core> but there are some really weird overlaps in the book. Some things are core, some things are bubonic astartes, some things get contagions, some things get disgustingly resilient and these overlap in inconsistent ways that I think is gonna be a nightmare to keep track of!

A predator gets Inexorable Advance but not disgustingly resilient . A MBH gets DR but not IA. A Daemon Prince gets both. A Defiler doesn't get either. A Helbrute is Core but doesn't get DR, every other Core unit does get DR.

Maybe I'm making it a bigger issue than it is but I just find it so overly complex.

I don't understand why, after the last two years of our vehicles not getting a Legion Trait, it finally looked like it was now a blanket rule but in reality they've added in vehicles but arbitrarily not included Daemon Engines.

And that just makes our new Legion Trait so utterly perplexing. Of the three parts we have:
1.Count as not moving. The only heavy weapons available to DG infantry autohit anyway! So as far as I can tell all this grants for DG infantry is that they get Bolter Discipline regardless of whether they moved (bare in mind they used to rapid fire at 18" anyway including plasma and all terminators get it at 24")
So in reality it gives Plague Marines the extra bolter shot between 18-24" regardless of whether they moved.

2.No penalty for vehicles firing heavy in melee. The only vehicle units that get this are Helbrutes, Predators and Land Raiders - none of the Daemon Engines who would be more open to getting into melee. Helbrutes, yes it's a nice buff on an overall improved unit, but who takes Preds & LRs at all let alone in a DG army?

3.The infantry ignoring movement penalties is fine.

So really an entire 2/3 of our Legion Trait lets PMs get Bolter Discipline despite moving and Helbrutes, Preds and LRs shoot in combat without penalty. I'm inclined to think why did they bother?

I mean, I get that this is a trait for a single army codex. The loyalist Chapter Tactics are there to try to make the different chapters feel different and I guess you can give DG a weak legion trait but then up the power level on the datasheets or elsewhere in the rules to balance everything but this isn't about the power level of the army.

If the army is largely made up of exclusive units, why not just let rules cover everything and fix the datasheets or points to balance and then you don't have to remember what is getting what? Would it have been so OP to let Daemon Engines shoot in combat unimpaired? Just bump them all up 10pts or something to cover it?

Sorry for the rant but it's just frustrating that such a great book feels hampered by such awkward and arbitrary choices and alongside the detachment restrictions and weapon loadout restrictions just takes the edge off for me to be honest. Hopefully when I start getting games under my belt this will all start to make sense!

Those are very interesting observations, it'll be a nightmare to explain that to my opponents. They had already a hard time to remember which units got T5 and FNP in 7th, or why there were things in 8th that got no DG bonus. Once I get my Codex I'll try to see if there's any logic behind this.

Some very good observations there A303.

Abaddon303 wrote:
A predator gets Inexorable Advance but not disgustingly resilient . A MBH gets DR but not IA. A Daemon Prince gets both. A Defiler doesn't get either. A Helbrute is Core but doesn't get DR, every other Core unit does get DR.

Hellbrutes get the Monstrous Resilience which is the same effect as DR. Not sure why they didn't just give it DR instead. Perhaps there is a Stratagem combo they didn't want to be usable?

 mokoshkana wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
A predator gets Inexorable Advance but not disgustingly resilient . A MBH gets DR but not IA. A Daemon Prince gets both. A Defiler doesn't get either. A Helbrute is Core but doesn't get DR, every other Core unit does get DR.

Hellbrutes get the Monstrous Resilience which is the same effect as DR. Not sure why they didn't just give it DR instead. Perhaps there is a Stratagem combo they didn't want to be usable?

If they had given it DR instead it is guaranteed there would be no end of complaints that all other Dreads get natural -1 Damage.

I think if you look at the units and the rules in question it`s actually quite logical.
Look at the vehicles:

If it has a Death Guard only model and thus is clearly a "Death Guard" and not a generic Chaos model, it gets DR. (Crawler, Blight-Hauler, Bloat-Drone)

If it is a model thats considered an Astartes or one driving it and nothing daemonic, it gets the "Chapter Trait", in this case meaning Inexorable Advance. (Rhino, Land Raider, Predator, Helbrute) Don`t forget, the Helbrute still has a Heretic Astartes inside, even if it might be most far gone concerning optics.

If it is a daemon engine, it also has the daemonic 5++, the daemon keyword and does not profit from IA - which makes also sense fluff-wise. (Blight-Hauler, Bloat-Drone, Crawler, Defiler) They all are daemons bound to the machine and don`t have Astartes inside. A fact a have repeatedly surprised people with that thought Crawlers had a human / astartes crew.
So this one is absolutely fine as well.

About things being Core - well it`s Marines, Terminators and Cybots and with that the most "common / regular" stuff. Basicly this brings the DG just in line with the other armies.
A change i really like overall for 40k and think the right units got core in the Death guard Codex.

Same goes for Bubonic Astartes, which is just a new word for "true" legion units, so everything that is not a cultist, poxwalker, chaos spawn or Daemon Engine.
My guess is, GW is trying to limit soup buffs and will rename abilities, psychic powers and other stuff that triggered on Heretic Astartes with legion specific keywords.
Thousand Sons will get Dusty Astartes for Rubrics, Scarabs and Sorcerers, EC will get Lustful Astartes and WE Angry Astartes etc.


So overall i can`t agree, i think GW did the right choice here. If they had just given all the rules to all the units we would have a diskussion here now, why that decision was unfluffy.
But yeah, on first glance it might look inconsistant and complicated, and maybe confuse at the beginning, but it`s just a matter of time.

About the weapons loadouts, it is what it is. Whatever the exact reasons are for GW (Chapterhouse, beginner friendly sprues without the need for kitbashing, rules adjustment), we gotta deal with it. You still can use that stuff in open play or beer and bretzel games. Hell, occosionally i field my KFF Big Mek on bike just because i love my conversion and nobody cares.
Sure i love kitbashing and i understand when folks are angry if they can`t field their 20 double knife Plague Marines and 10 Plasma Terminators anyone, but hey, some builds kinda had it coming sooner or later.
In some cases loadouts become obsolete, in other cases whole units. (Conscripts, Brimstones, Grots anyone?)

I think you have a lot of good points too, until you get to the 'they had it coming' argument coupled with invalid examples. With all due respect, I don't think you understand the issue there. Which is fine, but if one doesn't understand why people are upset I think many would appreciate asking until one does or just not engaging in that particular line of conversation.

Sidenote: No, people can't use their invalidated loadouts in open play. It requires a house rule, which for many communities is a massive can of worms. And it is info needed when building a list, so for pickup games people are reduced to asking 'hey, can we use this house rule?' and if the other person says no, well sucky day.

It will be interesting if this happens to other armies, especially marines, to see how opinions change. Hopefully we'll never know.

You`re right, it hits the meta chasers as well as someone who is just enjoying his hobby - which i should have differentiate more.
Maybe i`m a bit tired of all the (partly) toxic discussions that that often swap over so many good discussions. (Plus i was on the "no model = no rules" thread on another tab and got kinda mixed up.)

Sidenote: No, people can't use their invalidated loadouts in open play. It requires a house rule, which for many communities is a massive can of worms. And it is info needed when building a list, so for pickup games people are reduced to asking 'hey, can we use this house rule?' and if the other person says no, well sucky day.

Are people really playing open play pick up games? Honest question, as i have a large gaming club and a few buddies to play. Had my last pickup game about 8 years ago.
In my mind open play is something people who play regularly but not competetive do and would not care too much about stuff like legends loadout.
We play matched play 99% of the time but sometimes use such loadouts for fun, so i kinda thought this would be even more common in open play.

For example 10 Plague Marines with double knifes are something i would have no problem with playying against, especially with Blades of Putrefication gone it`s not that bad anymore.

It will be interesting if this happens to other armies, especially marines, to see how opinions change. Hopefully we'll never know.

You mean the new keywords relevant for soup stuff or the invalidation of options not in boxes?

Invalidation of options. Most of the focus in on how this affects the new PM and BLT kits but the reality is that they have changed a weapon allocation standard that has been around for decades. And done it in something with clear, direct analogues to loyalist firstborn, who were not affected. It creates a strange and extremely frustrating situation where it feels like loyalist marines get to break the rules and get free stuff because poster boys. There was a lot of resentment towards loyalist marines already and this is not going to help. Will be interesting to see going forward.

Could end up being something they only do with DG and decide that doing it with other armies is not so great an idea. Which would be a sigh of relief for many but also really frustrating for DG.

In regards to pick up games the point is that the old loadouts people have been running for years now require a house rule to use. Not bringing in a legends dataslate but actually needing to change the RAW. And they can't access the counts-as solution that actually retired models get.

 Grotrebel wrote:

So overall i can`t agree, i think GW did the right choice here. If they had just given all the rules to all the units we would have a diskussion here now, why that decision was unfluffy.

I don't think anybody would have complained about Daemon engines getting the legion trait. Maybe a musing on the fact, like cultists getting access to veterans of the long war but I can't imagine anybody being upset about it.

I don't think these restrictions were made for fluff reasons. There's no fluff to say that death guard vehicles are particularly accurate at shooting enemies that are assaulting them but daemon engines aren't...

But has this not already kinda started with Legends?
There were lots of models but loadout options as well that got removed if they did not have a current model / option.

And they implemented that in later releases after Legends got introduced.


Sure it`s another jump to remove stuff like 4 LasCa Havocs loadout (if they continue this with other armies as well), but on the other hand it helps a lot as well. People getting into the hobby and not having to buy weapons for 4 bucks each on bitz shops because the the one option i want to spam is just there once - same goes for veterans or tournament players.
Sure there are options like kitbashing, 3D printing and other manufacturers, but i remember when i got into the hobby it was so much overwhelming stuff, that i glued to my models what looked cool / what i had and found out later if i had kitbashed that or have had those special parts i could have made that mob into a killer unit.
1 in five lootas was a mek because that was the sprue - i actually bought 4 boxes at some point so i could finally play 15 lootas without Mek like the others. If i had the knowledge / money i would have had 25% more dakka with them.

With this consistency you can just buy a box and go building + this might actually help the game itself.
Mixed squads that won`t do 100% of their damage because i need to take a fist and a banner - why not?
One of the main points people point out is 9th is still too killy.

I don't think anybody would have complained about Daemon engines getting the legion trait. Maybe a musing on the fact, like cultists getting access to veterans of the long war but I can't imagine anybody being upset about it.

I don't think these restrictions were made for fluff reasons. There's no fluff to say that death guard vehicles are particularly accurate at shooting enemies that are assaulting them but daemon engines aren't...

Yeah that veterans example is worse for sure.
Well Astartes have some kind of training and are Veterans in a long war after all (hehe), while daemon engines are bound aganst their will trying every second to escape and being forced to to their thing.
Makes kinda sense to me they don`t profit from the trait / rules like for example Land Raiders do fluff wise.

But yeah, game wise it would not have had been a big problem to give them the same rules.

 Grotrebel wrote:
But has this not already kinda started with Legends?
There were lots of models but loadout options as well that got removed if they did not have a current model / option.

And they implemented that in later releases after Legends got introduced.


Sure it`s another jump to remove stuff like 4 LasCa Havocs loadout (if they continue this with other armies as well), but on the other hand it helps a lot as well. People getting into the hobby and not having to buy weapons for 4 bucks each on bitz shops because the the one option i want to spam is just there once - same goes for veterans or tournament players.
Sure there are options like kitbashing, 3D printing and other manufacturers, but i remember when i got into the hobby it was so much overwhelming stuff, that i glued to my models what looked cool / what i had and found out later if i had kitbashed that or have had those special parts i could have made that mob into a killer unit.
1 in five lootas was a mek because that was the sprue - i actually bought 4 boxes at some point so i could finally play 15 lootas without Mek like the others. If i had the knowledge / money i would have had 25% more dakka with them.

With this consistency you can just buy a box and go building + this might actually help the game itself.
Mixed squads that won`t do 100% of their damage because i need to take a fist and a banner - why not?
One of the main points people point out is 9th is still too killy.

Do you not think that eventually we will get to the point where every single factions units will be exactly the same no matter who builds the army ? Isn't it kind of boring if everything is the same ?

 Argive wrote:

Do you not think that eventually we will get to the point where every single factions units will be exactly the same no matter who builds the army ? Isn't it kind of boring if everything is the same ?

I think there is plenty of variety left.
Just look at that PM squad, those 7 dudes still have access to over 10 different weapons and including relic upgrades and champion options you can get 20 different equipped models.
If you want you can play a squad of 10 with each one being equipped different.
Before you would have spammed 10 dual blades PM's and spammed granades and used blades for 40+ mortal wounds a turn.
Now DG players are discussing what weapons to mix in their CC squad with taking 3-5 different ones being actually a valid option.
I call this a win.

Depends on the kit of course, if there are 5 models with 4 options each once it's not that cool, but honestly I'd rather have this than seeing 1 or two options being spammed all over.
Not sure which boxes have this exact kind of load out though. Havocs and some aeldari unit?

And if I look at competitive lists, lots of them are already kind of boring with a lot of the same.
But yeah, to have the army armory back would be nice.

If GW would release kits with the amount of options like the PM with the same restriction of the same weapon once per 5 models I would actually like that. You still have specialist units like lootas, hellblasters or firedragons that use 1 weapon exklusive.

 Grotrebel wrote:

If GW would release kits with the amount of options like the PM with the same restriction of the same weapon once per 5 models I would actually like that. You still have specialist units like lootas, hellblasters or firedragons that use 1 weapon exklusive.

Take another gander at the Lootas(& Burnas) box. This new approach has terrible implications there.
Specifically that 1 of every 5 models MUST be a spanner (w. kustom blasta/big shoota or rokkit launcha) and you've got to pay points for one for every fifth model in the unit while removing 3 deffguns from a squad of 15.

 Grotrebel wrote:

 Argive wrote:

Do you not think that eventually we will get to the point where every single factions units will be exactly the same no matter who builds the army ? Isn't it kind of boring if everything is the same ?

I think there is plenty of variety left.
Just look at that PM squad, those 7 dudes still have access to over 10 different weapons and including relic upgrades and champion options you can get 20 different equipped models.
If you want you can play a squad of 10 with each one being equipped different.
Before you would have spammed 10 dual blades PM's and spammed granades and used blades for 40+ mortal wounds a turn.
Now DG players are discussing what weapons to mix in their CC squad with taking 3-5 different ones being actually a valid option.
I call this a win.

Depends on the kit of course, if there are 5 models with 4 options each once it's not that cool, but honestly I'd rather have this than seeing 1 or two options being spammed all over.
Not sure which boxes have this exact kind of load out though. Havocs and some aeldari unit?

And if I look at competitive lists, lots of them are already kind of boring with a lot of the same.
But yeah, to have the army armory back would be nice.

If GW would release kits with the amount of options like the PM with the same restriction of the same weapon once per 5 models I would actually like that. You still have specialist units like lootas, hellblasters or firedragons that use 1 weapon exklusive.

I disagree. I was up against plenty of DG MSU squads and verity of vehicles characters, deamons all sorts... I played vs DG regularly.
You just wont see any of those units on the table now.

That's kind of the point, who cares if you can have each dude with a different weapon if only one of them is good but just taking one isn't enough to make it worth while.. People don't take units that are all mish mash for a reason.

Out of what's left that's decent, how many of those options are going to be blatantly optimal? As soon as one loadout becomes obviously optimal... It will be the only loadout you will see or you just will see another unit instead.

You think GW will make kit options balanced at??
The same GW where it usually gives you 3 options of which one is auto take and the other are just plain bad?
What about factions whose core units happen to have really gak box contents?

If all of your factions vehicles suck and the other source of heavy support was a heavy weapons team which now has to take all sort of crap weapons you don't want you will just go for the only things thats left that's decent..

Internal codex balance is already abysmal for most factions (unless you have 100+ data sheets)
Any more limitation will just push that internal balance even further out of whack...

I'm surprised people cant see how this trend is going to go and how they could possibly have any trust in GW to make options balanced..

Nah Eldar have already been gutted of options. We don't get to have any.
Which is why you only saw Eldar flyers for 3 years... Bad internal balance due to bad kits and options is why you see spamming. Not too many options...

In fairness, GW have managed to produce a pretty balanced codex with DG. I guess that's part of my frustration that now that all the options in the book have their merits, my choices are now arbitrarily restricted.

I have a plague marine I built and painted with the cleaver just because it looked cool. I've never used him in a game but the new codex has actually made me consider him to be a viable choice along with every other PM loadout. So it's extra galling to have my choices restricted again.

I think fortunately due to the nature of 9th edition, PM squads are actually one of the best places units to be viable as a mixed loadout unit. I don't feel so inclined to load one up to sit at the back and another to charge forwards in a rhino etc.

I do think they will work with a variety of weapons sprinkled throughout without being fully optimised for a role, but the fact I have less control over what I give to my squads makes my list building feel a little less interactive which just feels kinda anti-hobby if that makes...

You don't think blight lord spam + pox walkers/ PM (with flail and bligh launcher)+ surgeon is now just auto take part of the army?

What about any of the vehicles?
Recon I'm going to come up against PBC / MBH ?


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Abaddon303 wrote:


I do think they will work with a variety of weapons sprinkled throughout without being fully optimised for a role, but the fact I have less control over what I give to my squads makes my list building feel a little less interactive which just feels kinda anti-hobby if that makes...

It makes perfect sense.
Once Internal balance settles and you have less options choices will be made for you. which is just bad.

Why did people only see eldar planes for a whole dition?
Options taken away and crappy internal balance.

What has actually changed with the Plague Marine loadouts in their entry?
Is there a screenshot of it somewhere easy.

People who wanted to build loadouts using only what was in the kit were 100% able to do that before. Nothing, I repeat, nothing has changed for those players. Every single thing that they supposedly 'gain' from this change is something they already had.

Players who did not convert/bits swap couldn't build certain loadouts? Well either they don't lose anything for not doing that because such loadouts were bad, OR the players who were doing that have lost a desirable option. It is one or the other.

Certain loadouts were more powerful and gave a disadvantage to other builds? Change the points! Otherwise the problem remains that someone who comes in new and builds a mix is handicapping themselves and nothing has changed, save the min-maxxers don't have to work as hard. And the overwhelming majority of people who were not trying to optimize for gaming the meta are punished for playing exactly how GW and the rules told them to.

Players who want to keep running PM or DG termies with the equipment mechanics they've had for the last 20+ years cannot do that. At all. Not in legends, not in open play, not for counts-as. They need to alter the RAW to use their units.

And finally, anyone who supports this as a good change by extension is supporting equivalent changes for other armies. Havocs should be 2 per 5 on each weapon because that's what's in the kit, GSC infantry can only use exactly the numbers in the kit, scourges, guardsmen, termagants, lootas/burnas, a massive number of space marine units, and many more. Tell the players of those armies that such a change is a 'good idea' and see how they react.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
People who wanted to build loadouts using only what was in the kit were 100% able to do that before. Nothing, I repeat, nothing has changed for those players. Every single thing that they supposedly 'gain' from this change is something they already had.

Players who did not convert/bits swap couldn't build certain loadouts? Well either they don't lose anything for not doing that because such loadouts were bad, OR the players who were doing that have lost a desirable option. It is one or the other.

Certain loadouts were more powerful and gave a disadvantage to other builds? Change the points! Otherwise the problem remains that someone who comes in new and builds a mix is handicapping themselves and nothing has changed, save the min-maxxers don't have to work as hard. And the overwhelming majority of people who were not trying to optimize for gaming the meta are punished for playing exactly how GW and the rules told them to.

Players who want to keep running PM or DG termies with the equipment mechanics they've had for the last 20+ years cannot do that. At all. Not in legends, not in open play, not for counts-as. They need to alter the RAW to use their units.

And finally, anyone who supports this as a good chance by extension is supporting equivalent changes for other armies. Havocs should 1 per 5 on each weapon because that's what's in the kit, GSSC infantry can only use exactly the numbers in the kit, scourges, guardsmen, termagants, lootas/burns, a massive number of space marine units, and many more. Tell the players of those armies that such a change is a 'good idea' and see how they react.

This is 100% accurate. The options as in the core box were legal already they simply made loadouts that had been legal for decades not able to be taken, for no real reason I can see outside punish people who spent time to convert, money to buy, or just old squad set ups from previous editions where blight weapons didn't yet exist. This wasn't about balance as no one was running in fear from the offensive output of plague marines back when you could take 5 man dual plasma squads since way back. It's fine if someone doesn't care, or begrudges people their happiness just because they think it's " bad wrong fun but at least be honest with why you support this decision. This obviously isn't addressed to who I quoted. It's just many people are seem to love to say " Hey, happened to me, suck it up " or " Just the way it goes, enjoy it. " which end up both unhelpful and add nothing. Though at this point what can be added the decision doesn't make anything either more balanced or more fun.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
People who wanted to build loadouts using only what was in the kit were 100% able to do that before. Nothing, I repeat, nothing has changed for those players. Every single thing that they supposedly 'gain' from this change is something they already had.

Players who did not convert/bits swap couldn't build certain loadouts? Well either they don't lose anything for not doing that because such loadouts were bad, OR the players who were doing that have lost a desirable option. It is one or the other.

Certain loadouts were more powerful and gave a disadvantage to other builds? Change the points! Otherwise the problem remains that someone who comes in new and builds a mix is handicapping themselves and nothing has changed, save the min-maxxers don't have to work as hard. And the overwhelming majority of people who were not trying to optimize for gaming the meta are punished for playing exactly how GW and the rules told them to.

Players who want to keep running PM or DG termies with the equipment mechanics they've had for the last 20+ years cannot do that. At all. Not in legends, not in open play, not for counts-as. They need to alter the RAW to use their units.

And finally, anyone who supports this as a good chance by extension is supporting equivalent changes for other armies. Havocs should 1 per 5 on each weapon because that's what's in the kit, GSSC infantry can only use exactly the numbers in the kit, scourges, guardsmen, termagants, lootas/burns, a massive number of space marine units, and many more. Tell the players of those armies that such a change is a 'good idea' and see how they react.

Your argument would be more convincing if you got your facts right. The Havoc kit contains 2 of each heavy weapon expect for the single chaincannon.

Overall I agree with the arguments that the few restrictions were annoying, not needed, and lead to cookie cuter lists. I also agree it is frustrating and confusing why they didn’t make everything get DR and IA (which is the worst legion/chapter trait in the game).

Also, I know there has been lots of talk about how good mortarian is. I agree he is very resilient, but wow his damage output has really fallen off. In many instances his damage output fall well behind that of a Redemptor dreadnaught which costs almost 1/3 points. On average he will only kill 2 assault terminators or blade guard veterans each turn (before he gets bracketed). Throw in an apothecary and Mortarian can be tied up almost the entire game with a unit of 10. Overall he is still strong, but I think people are expecting his 8th Ed damage output with blades of putrefaction, not realizing his damage output has been exchanged for his durability.

Truth to be said, restrictions usually have the effect of increasing diversity.

During the history of 8th, lists would have been very similar if the rule of three didn't exist, or if you could take multiple copies of the same named char.

Restrictions help to prevent a single good choice from becoming prevalent. It is a "damage control" approach. You assume that in a game of this size, with this impossibly huge amount of choices, you can't really balance them all perfectly and so put rules like the rule of three in place to make sure that even if one option would rule them all, at least it cannot actually rule all of it and must leave a share for the other ones.

Game wise, I'm fine with these kind of restrictions, they make the game more interesting and I would like to actually see more of them.

Hobby wise, they suck. Plain and simple. You can't simply change the loadout on a painted model. Even if you have the will to modify it and repaint it, many times you no longer have those bits. Maybe that you no longer even have the colors which you used to paint it the first time, they could even be out of production.

That said, I don't understand why these kind of threads are appearing only now. The PM squad wasn't surely the first to be gutted and box sized. For example, have you ever took a look at the canoness loadouts?

Take a look at that datasheet and tell me that you didn't see this coming.

You quite simply didn't see that as an issue with the SoB book because some of their kits just came with naturally light choices. I'd say as well if units lost options, many players who picked them up were brand new at the time of relaunch. The vets of the army as well wouldn't bother worrying about slight lack of options due to getting such a wealth of new kits and a new actual codex once more.

Now any SoB old time player can correct me here if I'm wrong.

So, no we wouldn't just assume it would happen as the 7 man two special of the same kind set up has been legal for well over a decade at least as far as I remember for DG.

As for BL, they didn't take away space wolves being able to take tons of varied upgrades on their terminators so why would people just assume it would be taken away for them now ? Nothing was said or hinted at that they would make such strange rulings.

I am currently of the belief that these unit/kit limitations will only be applicable to non-Heavy slots. Which is why I am not that worried about Havoc, Devs, and Retributors.

However, GW being GW I will have to wait until other codexes to see where GW is heading with this.

I wonder where this outcry was when they axed all the options from Codex: Orks that weren't in the corresponding kits, despite the kits being designed to be interchangeable. GW has been doing this for years, it's just the first time it has reached a marine faction.

I'm no less surprised about my winged Daemon Prince with spitter being illegal than I was about my warboss on warbike losing his attack squig and kombi-skorcha.

I think the blightlord terminator's combi weapon limitation is the real big change, though. The plague marine role is mostly the same, even with the new restrictions - you can still make melee oriented units and fire support units (even though it's true you'll have to recruit 10 of them to have 3 plasmas instead of 2), with basically a similar effect as before.

I feel like the blightlords role isn't the same, though.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
You quite simply didn't see that as an issue with the SoB book because some of their kits just came with naturally light choices. I'd say as well if units lost options, many players who picked them up were brand new at the time of relaunch. The vets of the army as well wouldn't bother worrying about slight lack of options due to getting such a wealth of new kits and a new actual codex once more.

Now any SoB old time player can correct me here if I'm wrong.

Most the lost options were concerning characters and unit champions, so it was still annoying for those of us who had the miniatures but we could live with it.

Adding a heavy bolter to the new Immolator and Exorcist was way more annoying in comparison, since the old versions were not WYSIWYG anymore...;and they clearly were more expensive than a mere unit of Plague Marines or Blightlord Terminators.

Sarouan wrote:
I think the blightlord terminator's combi weapon limitation is the real big change, though. The plague marine role is mostly the same, even with the new restrictions - you can still make melee oriented units and fire support units (even though it's true you'll have to recruit 10 of them to have 3 plasmas instead of 2), with basically a similar effect as before.

That's true I guess, and I understand it sucks a lot if you have a load of old chaos terminators like Grimtuff described. But this isn't new either. In 7th edition kanz lost the ability to run double melee or ranged weapons, in 8th they lost the ability to take KMB and I'm sure in 9th they will be going to being able to take only one of each weapon per 3 - despite the dread and the kanz being designed in a way to swap bits between them, up to the point where lower melee arms and skorchas are the exact same bits.

 Jidmah wrote:
I wonder where this outcry was when they axed all the options from Codex: Orks that weren't in the corresponding kits, despite the kits being designed to be interchangeable. GW has been doing this for years, it's just the first time it has reached a marine faction.

I'm no less surprised about my winged Daemon Prince with spitter being illegal than I was about my warboss on warbike losing his attack squig and kombi-skorcha.

I actually have some good friends who love Orks, play them, have them and I did say I don't like the removal of Ork options here and IRL. Just because some said to suck it up doesn't mean that was ever me who told someone that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarouan wrote:
I think the blightlord terminator's combi weapon limitation is the real big change, though. The plague marine role is mostly the same, even with the new restrictions - you can still make melee oriented units and fire support units (even though it's true you'll have to recruit 10 of them to have 3 plasmas instead of 2), with basically a similar effect as before.

I feel like the blightlords role isn't the same, though.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
You quite simply didn't see that as an issue with the SoB book because some of their kits just came with naturally light choices. I'd say as well if units lost options, many players who picked them up were brand new at the time of relaunch. The vets of the army as well wouldn't bother worrying about slight lack of options due to getting such a wealth of new kits and a new actual codex once more.

Now any SoB old time player can correct me here if I'm wrong.

Most the lost options were concerning characters and unit champions, so it was still annoying for those of us who had the miniatures but we could live with it.

Adding a heavy bolter to the new Immolator and Exorcist was way more annoying in comparison, since the old versions were not WYSIWYG anymore...;and they clearly were more expensive than a mere unit of Plague Marines or Blightlord Terminators.

I do hear you about the heavy bolter and exorcist thing. For our group we just let the one SoB player we have run the units and assume the HB is there. Makes it a bit easier than say " Just assume this other plasma is a blight launcher " One is somewhat easy to the remember the other way invalidates the model. I don't really like either thing however.

Thank you for the reply to let me know of the changes to load out items for SoB, I appreciate the feed back.

Quite a few posters bemoaning their ruined collection in this thread did so, though.

And where did I ever say having units invalidated would ever be something good ? I don't think I've ever said that was ok and it is always annoying. Squating of models, units or even whole armies is wrong, no matter who it happens to.

Why are you assuming I addressed you directly? I didn't

I'm just seeing this thread run in circles for over ten pages on units losing options, like it had never happened before.

Abaddon303 wrote:


A predator gets Inexorable Advance but not disgustingly resilient . A MBH gets DR but not IA. A Daemon Prince gets both. A Defiler doesn't get either. A Helbrute is Core but doesn't get DR, every other Core unit does get DR.

Maybe I'm making it a bigger issue than it is but I just find it so overly complex.

I don't understand why, after the last two years of our vehicles not getting a Legion Trait, it finally looked like it was now a blanket rule but in reality they've added in vehicles but arbitrarily not included Daemon Engines.

Hi, sorry if I'm being thick, but I registered to ask this because everyone seemed to agree with this but I don't understand it. The codex says that vehicles with the <plague company> keyword get IA and MBH has both the <plague company> and the vehicle keyword, so I assumed they got Inexorable Advance? Can you explain why this wouldn't be the case? Just asking because I'm pretty new to Death Guard and want to get things right.

 Jidmah wrote:
I wonder where this outcry was when they axed all the options from Codex: Orks that weren't in the corresponding kits, despite the kits being designed to be interchangeable. GW has been doing this for years, it's just the first time it has reached a marine faction.

we had this with Marines too (Wolve Scouts have the same Box since 5th while their possible equipment changed with every Codex), it was just that people still believed that Nu-GW is different and it won't happen with a new Codex designed by Nu-GW (so no old leftover copyright/chapterhouse problems as an excuse why it must be done)

but Nu-GW is just old-GW with a PR department, rules development and codex design is still the same

So for the marines, the limits are no more than the total of weapons in the kit, is that what we are saying?
So one Plague launcher in the kit, can’t take two together unless over ten in the unit?

Bishbot wrote:
Hi, sorry if I'm being thick, but I registered to ask this because everyone seemed to agree with this but I don't understand it. The codex says that vehicles with the <plague company> keyword get IA and MBH has both the <plague company> and the vehicle keyword, so I assumed they got Inexorable Advance? Can you explain why this wouldn't be the case? Just asking because I'm pretty new to Death Guard and want to get things right.

Exact quote:
"Bubonic Astartes in Death Guard detachments gain the Inexorable Advance ability."

All daemon engines lack the Bubonic Astartes keyword.

 Jidmah wrote:

Bishbot wrote:
Hi, sorry if I'm being thick, but I registered to ask this because everyone seemed to agree with this but I don't understand it. The codex says that vehicles with the <plague company> keyword get IA and MBH has both the <plague company> and the vehicle keyword, so I assumed they got Inexorable Advance? Can you explain why this wouldn't be the case? Just asking because I'm pretty new to Death Guard and want to get things right.

Exact quote:
"Bubonic Astartes in Death Guard detachments gain the Inexorable Advance ability."

All daemon engines lack the Bubonic Astartes keyword.

Ah, got it, thanks. Not sure how I missed it several times.

Spoletta wrote:
Truth to be said, restrictions usually have the effect of increasing diversity.

During the history of 8th, lists would have been very similar if the rule of three didn't exist, or if you could take multiple copies of the same named char.

Restrictions help to prevent a single good choice from becoming prevalent. It is a "damage control" approach. You assume that in a game of this size, with this impossibly huge amount of choices, you can't really balance them all perfectly and so put rules like the rule of three in place to make sure that even if one option would rule them all, at least it cannot actually rule all of it and must leave a share for the other ones.

Game wise, I'm fine with these kind of restrictions, they make the game more interesting and I would like to actually see more of them.

Hobby wise, they suck. Plain and simple. You can't simply change the loadout on a painted model. Even if you have the will to modify it and repaint it, many times you no longer have those bits. Maybe that you no longer even have the colors which you used to paint it the first time, they could even be out of production.

That said, I don't understand why these kind of threads are appearing only now. The PM squad wasn't surely the first to be gutted and box sized. For example, have you ever took a look at the canoness loadouts?

Take a look at that datasheet and tell me that you didn't see this coming.

Some restrictions are good (rule of three), but forcing everyone to take a plague caster with no other HQ options isn’t going to increase diversity it will have the opposite result. Restrictions on the weapon load outs are just odd, because it had nothing to do with balance. It now makes me have to roll a million on different weapon types and slows the game. I’m hoping that adding the “lord of the death” guard to demon prices was an error (Which I think it was). Not sure why the even create the demon prince restriction otherwise. Just removing that restriction would be good.

A solution to the PM squad miss match of loads different weapons would be keeping them with no extra gear and build from there if you wish...

So a squad of 5 or 10 with only the default gear... should be an option if you want loads of squads that have same weapon type.

The multipart kit though only has:
"These models feature a wide range of weapons and heads, many of which are designed to fit a specific model – there are 8 boltguns, 4 plague knives, 2 bubotic axes, a blight launcher, a plasma gun, a meltagun, a plaguebelcher, a heavy plaguespewer (with backpack), a mace of contagion, a great plague cleaver, a plague flail, a plasma pistol and a bolt pistol. There are 2 weapon options available for the unit Champion: a specific plaguesword and power fist, and there are a total of 16 bare and helmeted heads. 2 specific arms are included for a model holding a blight grenade, with one hand pulling the pin."

A bit short on knives But if you buy 3 kits you will for sure have all that you need.

Joking aside its easy conversion with some knives being attached to the legs and back packs etc. And more grenades on hands.

Haven't seen the leaks yet, but before everything sells out, can someone tell me which character models seem like must-haves? My wife has a Morty and 3x Dark Imperium sets she has been painting, but we don't really own any of the HQ/Elite heroes.

Conquest never made it over there did it?

 Jidmah wrote:
I agree. People were crying how Thrakka was unkillable and breaking the game, then people complained about the invincible Void Dragon, now they are complaining about Mortarion. When a melee threat doesn't just lay down and die if they apply all their guns to it, people just lose their minds.

But my uncle who works for Nintendo and also happens to be the greatest 40k player in the world said... That Ghaz thread was comedy gold!

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Haven't seen the leaks yet, but before everything sells out, can someone tell me which character models seem like must-haves? My wife has a Morty and 3x Dark Imperium sets she has been painting, but we don't really own any of the HQ/Elite heroes.

Well she already has 3 plaguecasters and 3 Lord of Contagion so is pretty well set up for HQ.
To be honest with what she has to paint up I would leave off any more HQs for now. Then expand by getting the new Lord of Virulence and a Daemon Priince.
Be aware though that you can only have 1 lord or DP of ANY kind.

Elites I would say Plague Surgeon and Tallyman looking VERY good. I'm a personal fan of the Bioligus Putrifier myself too

 alextroy wrote:
Your argument would be more convincing if you got your facts right. The Havoc kit contains 2 of each heavy weapon expect for the single chaincannon.

Fixed, thank you for the correction!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Truth to be said, restrictions usually have the effect of increasing diversity.

During the history of 8th, lists would have been very similar if the rule of three didn't exist, or if you could take multiple copies of the same named char.

Restrictions help to prevent a single good choice from becoming prevalent. It is a "damage control" approach. You assume that in a game of this size, with this impossibly huge amount of choices, you can't really balance them all perfectly and so put rules like the rule of three in place to make sure that even if one option would rule them all, at least it cannot actually rule all of it and must leave a share for the other ones.

Game wise, I'm fine with these kind of restrictions, they make the game more interesting and I would like to actually see more of them.

Hobby wise, they suck. Plain and simple. You can't simply change the loadout on a painted model. Even if you have the will to modify it and repaint it, many times you no longer have those bits. Maybe that you no longer even have the colors which you used to paint it the first time, they could even be out of production.

That said, I don't understand why these kind of threads are appearing only now. The PM squad wasn't surely the first to be gutted and box sized. For example, have you ever took a look at the canoness loadouts?

Take a look at that datasheet and tell me that you didn't see this coming.

The outcry would not be the same if the change came when the new kit launched. It would still have sucked, but not as much. Instead they gave people three years to get situated with the new kit before pulling the rug out from under them.

Also, restrictions to prevent spamming the best option are a ridiculously inefficient fix as compared to simply raising the points on that option. Broad rules applied across the whole game, like rule of three, serve as a good catch all for imbalances that will inevitably exist but this is completely different. An equivalent would be saying ANY squad can only have 1 instance of a given special weapon per 5 models.

 Jidmah wrote:
Why are you assuming I addressed you directly? I didn't

I'm just seeing this thread run in circles for over ten pages on units losing options, like it had never happened before.

Just because something bad happens, doesn't ever make it correct. Just because crap things are allowed doesn't ever mean we shouldn't protest against it. Just because something crap has happened, even if it happens over and over doesn't ever mean people shouldn't bring up when its wrong and why it is wrong and make it known that is wrong. Justifying poor treatment based on precedent does nothing but try and justify gak ideas and treatment.

Just because you, or others were poor done over and others said suck it up, doesn't mean that was the right response or even the right attitude. I've had to eat these decisions, as have we all but at some point you have to draw a line in the sand, this is it for me. Especially when it could strike down just as hard, again, on Dark Eldar which really they've been hammered enough with loss of options, as have orks, as have pretty much every player who dares to play for longer than one codex release.

 Jidmah wrote:
Quite a few posters bemoaning their ruined collection in this thread did so, though.

I was Bemoaning the fact that we lost a option that was still in the kit, the bits are there, they are clearing wanting people to only build kit exaclty like they are in the directions and thats it. Also with this change and the change to the rules it doesn't make sense that they added a second Icon which is clearly meant to be taken with a squad kitted for CC, but then you can only take it if you take a boltgun armed guy which would not be what you want to take in a unit kit for CC. Which mean even in a fluffy game no will will take the icon, because why would I take it and lose one of4-5 Melee weaposmns I could take instead for a unit I have build to specifically get in my oppene8face

TlDR: the problem is mix messages with rules, and GW going beyond what is in the kit are the options, but "we only want you to build this unit this way"

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Why are you assuming I addressed you directly? I didn't

I'm just seeing this thread run in circles for over ten pages on units losing options, like it had never happened before.

Just because something bad happens, doesn't ever make it correct. Just because crap things are allowed doesn't ever mean we shouldn't protest against it. Just because something crap has happened, even if it happens over and over doesn't ever mean people shouldn't bring up when its wrong and why it is wrong and make it known that is wrong. Justifying poor treatment based on precedent does nothing but try and justify gak ideas and treatment.

Just because you, or others were poor done over and others said suck it up, doesn't mean that was the right response or even the right attitude. I've had to eat these decisions, as have we all but at some point you have to draw a line in the sand, this is it for me. Especially when it could strike down just as hard, again, on Dark Eldar which really they've been hammered enough with loss of options, as have orks, as have pretty much every player who dares to play for longer than one codex release.

Yes I understand, and I said so multiple times. Both my DG and my orks are affected by this company policy. I still see no point in this discussion, especially not for 10 pages, drowning out everything more interesting than "BREAKING NEWS: GW keeps operating the same way they did for a decade!".

Well perhaps its because people are tired of that same old behavior ? At some point even the most relaxed soul decides to speak out. That is all that is and was going on. If people want to discuss other things, and they have no one has stopped them, that is great. At this point though this whole thread has probably run its course. We've heard most of the rumors and news so little is still rumor and more just lamentable or cherished fact now.

Happy the codex is stronger, not happy for this change in set ups and will hope it dies with this book and doesn't blight other armies past this one.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well perhaps its because people are tired of that same old behavior ? At some point even the most relaxed soul decides to speak out. That is all that is and was going on. If people want to discuss other things, and they have no one has stopped them, that is great. At this point though this whole thread has probably run its course. We've heard most of the rumors and news so little is still rumor and more just lamentable or cherished fact now.

Happy the codex is stronger, not happy for this change in set ups and will hope it dies with this book and doesn't blight other armies past this one.

Then email them saying you won't buy the codex until they fix that atrocity.

I don't play DG (the one army I don't collect), but I totally feel the pain. My IG army had commissars with storm bolters, Ogryn with 2 close combat weapons, and Griffon mortars.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I don't play DG (the one army I don't collect), but I totally feel the pain. My IG army had commissars with storm bolters, Ogryn with 2 close combat weapons, and Griffon mortars.

And I will always fight for IG as well. Even on Kan's behalf I have complained about Infantry officers not having the option for a Lasgun. It's ridiculous.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I don't play DG (the one army I don't collect), but I totally feel the pain. My IG army had commissars with storm bolters, Ogryn with 2 close combat weapons, and Griffon mortars.

And I will always fight for IG as well. Even on Kan's behalf I have complained about Infantry officers not having the option for a Lasgun. It's ridiculous.

Especially when a box of 10 infantry comes with 10 lasguns. It's a freaking option in the box, but not legal???

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well perhaps its because people are tired of that same old behavior ? At some point even the most relaxed soul decides to speak out. That is all that is and was going on. If people want to discuss other things, and they have no one has stopped them, that is great. At this point though this whole thread has probably run its course. We've heard most of the rumors and news so little is still rumor and more just lamentable or cherished fact now.

Happy the codex is stronger, not happy for this change in set ups and will hope it dies with this book and doesn't blight other armies past this one.

Then email them saying you won't buy the codex until they fix that atrocity.

I did and called customer service for a verbal complain on it. Like I said, I don't like this, people shouldn't need to be worried each time they make a unit that it will be legal and then have it invalidated the next book. It gives 0 incentive to paint your models or even make the army your army if they will change their minds over and over. I have been looking into things lost in space wolves and don't like that either and don't see how many of these changes are ever good outside forcing all units to be the same, all the time which is the height of boredom.

I mean if its a new unit that has 0 real options, that is fine but taking things that have been around for decades and just scrapping them, it sucks for anyone and everyone. One of the things, I always loved about 40k was the options even if the balance on some of them left a bit to be desired. If it just becomes " This unit has all of this or that. " That that just feels really boring to me. The choices should have meaning based on what they do, not strip them away so there is no choice and then say " Now it's balanced. ". That just feels real lazy on their part.

This stuff is pretty much why I went and found a different ruleset for my 40K play. Fond memories of converting a Dark Angels techmarine on a special bike-with-force-field-generator just in time for a new edition to drop and the build to be removed entirely.

Some various levels of marines have had that happen over and over. Some set ups for Space wolves, Dark Angels, Deathwatch. I got to thinking on it last night and I actually got pretty upset, if I can be honest with you all. Made me question just stopping altogether.

This current situation being just that last straw. Like I went and spent the time for Space wolves to craft a fun, if not awesome wolf scout squad, a couple of them, only to have to alter their set ups, twice now and now it's wrong again. Spend the time to find and get the old generic wolf priest model, just for them to become chaplains and lose their flavor , making him basically a glorified chaplain, no more rune priests they are just libbys now.

Dark Angels had fun techmarines, all the set ups now are done. All the bike characters of old smashed. Don't get me started on the banners that bounced from good to not there to awesome to crap.

Deathwatch saw whole kill teams invalidated for me and the backbone of my force, my old killteams made pretty bleh because the gun I liked most, the frag cannon went from fun and strong used right, to toned down but workable to a glorified blast then solid shot close range auto cannon thing.

Now do any of these changes make the army suck ? Not unless you actually liked these things, which I did. The books can still be strong but it doesn't mean lack of options aren't a real problem that makes you like your force less in the end.

Now DG lose my made squad set ups for no real reason other than " change is good ! " Just to then make me wonder " If I followed this change what is to say in two years they won't change it again ? Or even sooner ? ". I have no faith a legal build today will even stay such in a week to a year let alone more or whole units won't just be legend killed at this point or not even remembered and tossed away like so many Ork or Dark Eldar units.

So it's not just this one thing, its all the things one after the other after a certain time and enough books it just should stop happening. I don't think these changes are being made in good faith and they feel more like change just to make you buy new stuff and then be changed again for seemingly no real reason outside fickle fancy.

You can love the models if you want and even the back story, but their rules really suffer from a case of being all over. The only army that usually doesn't suffer is my guard and that is mostly because units don't get anything outside the norm of the kits. Even with that each new drop comes with dread they will suddenly just decide units shouldn't be used or set ups can't be there for reasons. It just really sucks and DG kind of show case that and DE may show us even more but i hope they don't.


Edit: On topic of my guard, I'm still afraid to build my Bullgryns because they originally came out with slab shield and that grenade gauntlet. Now, you can take the club with the shield but I am still very afraid I'll build them, paint them and as soon as i enjoy them they'll be changed for no reason other than " We changed our mind. " I don't think a player should have to feel that from their game system, that is a clear sign to me at least how messed up they are in this regard.

Yes, yes. Can we now move this discussion to the thread dedicated to this? After 25 pages of discussing the same thing, this hardly qualifies as news anymore.

You can find it here:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795404.page

Anyone have a link to the DG codex pages until my codex arrives (hopefully no delay)?

Seems eu players might have some potential delays. At　least local flgs has not got dg products yet in normal time frame due　to custom delays. Obviously not constant deiay factor so some stores might get delays, others won't.

Yeah, I've received a warning from my shop as well. Apparently Britain <> EU customs are a battlefield right now, just as expected.

Yeah the British government promised a year ago that we'd have 50,000 customs officers recruited in time for Brexit this month. We have 12,000 so far. Things are gonna be a mess for years, at a guess.

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, I've received a warning from my shop as well. Apparently Britain <> EU customs are a battlefield right now, just as expected.

25% lorries moving between the 2 compared to reqular　non-peak day last year so transport capacity by roads　also greatly reduced(not sure how gw stuff is transported)

What surprised me was in other threads there were mentions of european warehouse. If these were coming from there custom would have been to there. Not when coming to flgs.

No such warhehouse/it serves only some countries/doesn't do new releases?

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah the British government promised a year ago that we'd have 50,000 customs officers recruited in time for Brexit this month. We have 12,000 so far. Things are gonna be a mess for years, at a guess.

TBF, the world looked pretty different a year ago.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah the British government promised a year ago that we'd have 50,000 customs officers recruited in time for Brexit this month. We have 12,000 so far. Things are gonna be a mess for years, at a guess.

TBF, the world looked pretty different a year ago.

True but this is a self-inflicted wound by some absolute weapons. I see you are American so should understand how it is to have an incompetent leader

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, I've received a warning from my shop as well. Apparently Britain <> EU customs are a battlefield right now, just as expected.

Yeah, it's been like that for some weeks now. With my last order my FLGS guy directly told me "don't expect it to be on time, customs are all messed up".

Luckily hobby stuff is never really urgent.

So with the mess around the Plague Marine kits/loadouts, should my wife and I be particularly careful in how we assemble stuff?

We've got three unbuilt PM boxes, and two sets of the ones from Dark Imperium also unbuilt, and also the six Space Marine Heroes 3 DG. Obviously we'd prefer to not end up with invalid units, but with the "heroes" and Dark Imperium models having no options, is it possible to use them all?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So with the mess around the Plague Marine kits/loadouts, should my wife and I be particularly careful in how we assemble stuff?

We've got three unbuilt PM boxes, and two sets of the ones from Dark Imperium also unbuilt, and also the six Space Marine Heroes 3 DG. Obviously we'd prefer to not end up with invalid units, but with the "heroes" and Dark Imperium models having no options, is it possible to use them all?

You should be okay now. It's feeling like this was setup like the Kharadron Overlords and their Grundstok Thunderers.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So with the mess around the Plague Marine kits/loadouts, should my wife and I be particularly careful in how we assemble stuff?

We've got three unbuilt PM boxes, and two sets of the ones from Dark Imperium also unbuilt, and also the six Space Marine Heroes 3 DG. Obviously we'd prefer to not end up with invalid units, but with the "heroes" and Dark Imperium models having no options, is it possible to use them all?

You'll be fine, plenty of ways to make those sets work out in combination, & each set (Multipart + DI + SM Heroes) is a legal loadout in its own right. Worth noting is that the Icon Bearer in the SM Heroes set is technically illegal (but it was illegal in 8th as well) because it has a bolt pistol instead of a boltgun, but that shouldn't be an issue in games.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So with the mess around the Plague Marine kits/loadouts, should my wife and I be particularly careful in how we assemble stuff?

We've got three unbuilt PM boxes, and two sets of the ones from Dark Imperium also unbuilt, and also the six Space Marine Heroes 3 DG. Obviously we'd prefer to not end up with invalid units, but with the "heroes" and Dark Imperium models having no options, is it possible to use them all?

I'd wait a month and see if our emails make GW not be stupid and create an errata for what they decided to do.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So with the mess around the Plague Marine kits/loadouts, should my wife and I be particularly careful in how we assemble stuff?

We've got three unbuilt PM boxes, and two sets of the ones from Dark Imperium also unbuilt, and also the six Space Marine Heroes 3 DG. Obviously we'd prefer to not end up with invalid units, but with the "heroes" and Dark Imperium models having no options, is it possible to use them all?

As long as you build with the restrictions set by the codex, you'll be fine. You can even do customizations as you like within the confines of those rules. Case in point, I wanted both a plague spewer and a great plague cleaver (both are supposed to use PM body #6), but I used PM body #1 instead for the cleaver. It took minimal conversion and it is legal to have both in a unit within the new restrictions. I expect you'd be able to use some Dark Imperium PM bodies for conversions like that with minimal work as well.

Are We There, yet?

Umbros wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah the British government promised a year ago that we'd have 50,000 customs officers recruited in time for Brexit this month. We have 12,000 so far. Things are gonna be a mess for years, at a guess.

TBF, the world looked pretty different a year ago.

True but this is a self-inflicted wound by some absolute weapons. I see you are American so should understand how it is to have an incompetent leader

No disagreement


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So with the mess around the Plague Marine kits/loadouts, should my wife and I be particularly careful in how we assemble stuff?

We've got three unbuilt PM boxes, and two sets of the ones from Dark Imperium also unbuilt, and also the six Space Marine Heroes 3 DG. Obviously we'd prefer to not end up with invalid units, but with the "heroes" and Dark Imperium models having no options, is it possible to use them all?

You should be okay now. It's feeling like this was setup like the Kharadron Overlords and their Grundstok Thunderers.

Two significant differences there though; it was only a few months after the army book dropped and there were serious mechanical/balance problems that needed to be fixed. I'd say there was also a general subtext where people building multiples of a certain weapon knew they were being exploitative and knew the tactic's days were numbered. It isn't like PM where tons of casual players were building their models in the same manner they have been for decades, with no hint that what they were doing was not going to be supported in the future.

Hmm youngling let me tell you a story of kit bashing that goes back 28 years and finished a touch over 4 weeks ago.

28 years ago
Playing Rogue Trader was both a joy and a task Chaos being my first army I railed at T3 Chaos Marine. 2nd ed came out and we got that beautiful codex. I had 5 metal terminators and wondered at the possibilities of trading in my combi-bolters for melta guns. I mean how could I possibly convert metal models?

15 years ago
Wow plastic chaos terminators. But I mean do I need more than 5? So I mail-ordered the spikey bits and arms, I know I'll kit bash my old ones metal ones and they'll be tip top. I'll just do this Ork Waargh I'm right into. I'll just take off all these multimeltas off my 2nd ed orks.

9 years ago
Hmm, I really really should do that chaos terminator conversion project I have there. I know, I'll just finish off this 2nd company of Blood Angles I started. Ooooh I can re-do all my sargeants with 2 melta pistols, that's pretty cool.

6 years ago.
Cool, got me 5 melta guns, with those spikey bits and extra arms I reckon I could do a really nice job of converting those metal chaos terminators I have right there on the shelf. But first I'll just finish off this Space Wolf Great Company.

3 years ago
Wow I really like this new Death Guard codex, perhaps with those metal terminators, those spikey bits, them there melta guns I could make a really nice unit of Blightlord Terminators. But the guys are coming over tonight for a game of Forbidden Stars, maybe next week.

4 weeks ago
Excellent a 9th ed codex for Death Guard. Hmm those metal chaos termintors are looking a little small these day. Wait I have some left over Space Wolf terminator bodies from that Great Company project, come Skaven heads left over from that Mordhiem project, some Ork Nobz axe arms left over from that Waargh project, those spikey bits, extra arms and some cool new bases.

I'll kit bash a unit of Death Guard Blightlord Terminators who were once from the 13th Great Company who got lost in the Eye of Terror at the end of the Horus Heresy. They'll be GREAT!!!

Gluing commenced and great rejoicing was had.

1 week ago
Wait what I cant use them anymore?

And...this is what I am talking about. No player should have to feel like this. Granted, it took awhile to make them but making dubious decisions on model load outs for a tactic that has been in the game since..well a very long time..is beyond stupid.

Lets not act like its for balance, because it isn't. It's just a dumb move to crap on set ups that have been in lists, in some cases for decades. Termicide being a very old tactic for both chaos and some flavors or loyalist terminators.

If it was some super strange set up, I'd have been cautious of saying it may leave. Like when you could put a melta gun on a power first for death watch, I assumed that wouldn't last more than a codex. Combi weapons have been a tool of terminators since forever, and taken with the same kinds in great number to boot. As well taking two special weapons of the same kind in plague squads at less than 10 has been accepted as not cheesy or even out of step for them for a long time.

Dumb decisions and I hope they see the light quickly on this.

 Darnok wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, I've received a warning from my shop as well. Apparently Britain <> EU customs are a battlefield right now, just as expected.

Yeah, it's been like that for some weeks now. With my last order my FLGS guy directly told me "don't expect it to be on time, customs are all messed up".

Luckily hobby stuff is never really urgent.

I'm in Northern Ireland so I'm in unique position of all my ordering is UK, but lots of UK places no longer deliver here now. Waheeey!
I found the other day that I can't order Bushmills through amazon any more even though it is made here hahah.

Thankfully it seems that all the model sites seem to have no issues though.

Still waiting for my DG and cards codex to arrive as delivery now takes longer too, but as you say it's not urgent.
I really hope PMs are back in stock in places soon as I want to do my possessed kit bashing and need the PMs to do it.

Got my book, and was fortunate enough to get a box of PMs from the same source either last week or the week before.

Unrelated point - does anyone have a bookmark with a list of what the DG side of Conquest contained?

 Dysartes wrote:
Got my book, and was fortunate enough to get a box of PMs from the same source either last week or the week before.

Unrelated point - does anyone have a bookmark with a list of what the DG side of Conquest contained?

not split out, but you can find he info here https://www.miniaturesofdeath.com/complete-list-of-warhammer-conquest-issues/

That's great - thanks Orlando.

I know I've got some duplicate issues anyway, but just getting the broad strokes down helps.

We didn’t get our GW order this week, so no new DG stuff. Sounds like the other flgs didn’t get theirs either, but the Warhammer store in the mall had books and already sold out. Have had to turn away several displeased patrons already today.

 Dysartes wrote:
Unrelated point - does anyone have a bookmark with a list of what the DG side of Conquest contained?

Does this list help?

 AduroT wrote:
We didn’t get our GW order this week, so no new DG stuff. Sounds like the other flgs didn’t get theirs either, but the Warhammer store in the mall had books and already sold out. Have had to turn away several displeased patrons already today.

Yep. No one in my area got any new stuff at all--that's 4 stores including one GW store.

I'm gonna start a youtube channel as it seems that's the only way to get anything anymore.

 Darnok wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Unrelated point - does anyone have a bookmark with a list of what the DG side of Conquest contained?

Does this list help?

Unfortunately not, for a couple of reasons:

A, Fauxhammer is a travesty of a website, more interested in serving up advertising than content.
B, In this case, more specifically, it's relying on a leak of the line-up, which ended up being inaccurate as some contents were shuffled around or out at various times. The link provided by Orlando seems to have been updated with the contents of each issue as it was released.

Thank you for having a look, though.

The Hachette website still has all of the issues of Conquest up, so you can see what each of them came with:
https://hachettepartworks.com/en-en/warhammer-40k-conquest/

Some of them are even still available.

Got the codex, have noticed that the fluff section is incredibly stripped down. Saw it with vanilla marines but wanted to believe that had more to do with fitting in 100 data sheets. Apparently this is a disappointing trend.

But on a positive note dam does that book have some nice artwork! I spent almost as much time oogling the images as I did reading the text. And the crusade rules were everything I was hoping they'd be, AND it seems like the penalty for not having the army as full DG isn't that bad. You lose the -T contagion but still have any others gained from traits or whatnot.

The plague marine dataslate gave me a headache. If I am ever to run them it is just going to be basic bolters just to not deal with that mess of text. Upside is there seems to be some strong support for basic bolter&knife loadout via stratagems and buffs.

I agree NinthMusketeer, the artwork in the book is exquisite.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Got the codex, have noticed that the fluff section is incredibly stripped down. Saw it with vanilla marines but wanted to believe that had more to do with fitting in 100 data sheets. Apparently this is a disappointing trend.

I thought this as well. Really nice book, really well made, awesome rules but narratively it was a bit of a disappointment.

Psychomancer, Eradicators, and Bladeguard go on preorder next week.

I'll admit, I was wrong. I didn't think Eradicators would be a separate kit from heavy intercessors, though one had a unit size of three

So do we know if the 'no psykers with Mortarion' thing was fake or not? My buddy is still waiting on his to arrive.

I don't see it in there anywhere.

 Dysartes wrote:
I don't see it in there anywhere.

Nice! Thank you!

It's 100% fake.

So still not got my codex. Since Turn of the year I have had 3 things sent out from 3 different places in England (All GW related, but only one from GW itself) and NONE of them have arrived.

(Mortal empires, codex, and replacement Deathguard Hero model)

Yayyy For living in NI now.

No DG models in Germany either.

That sucks guys, hopefully you'll get them sooner rather than later :(

Doohicky wrote:
So still not got my codex. Since Turn of the year I have had 3 things sent out from 3 different places in England (All GW related, but only one from GW itself) and NONE of them have arrived.

(Mortal empires, codex, and replacement Deathguard Hero model)

Yayyy For living in NI now.

This is why I’m waiting for the GW shop in Dublin to open instead of risking it being sent through the Covid/Brexit warp. Though if lockdown goes on until March or beyond, I’ll probably crack and order it.

So apparently what happened here is a GW trainee handled the store’s order, messed it up, and it didn’t go thru. They’re working to replace it, but we won’t get all of it.

Here FLGS's packet is still in customs with ETA being pushed further and further.

Since this is due to permanent issue either GW needs to send products sooner or all future releases are facing potential delays. Fun fun fun.

tneva82 wrote:
Here FLGS's packet is still in customs with ETA being pushed further and further.

Since this is due to permanent issue either GW needs to send products sooner or all future releases are facing potential delays. Fun fun fun.

Warhammer store in Milan has not received any order placed since december 16th. Not even their own stuff.
They say it's all standing in a german customs center. No eta het.

Woo Brexit. Yeeeeey. /s

Yeah it generally takes a long time here as well. if I get anything I try and order most all I'll want all at once so at least if it takes forever I shouldn't need to order anything else right away.I really can't wait till all this clears up. Man made chaos matched with natures own touch of mayhem equals one real pain in the butt for everyone.

Ordered a bunch of sold-out items from a favorite Polish store who had already ordered an allocation... As with many of you guys, their entire shipment is stuck in customs due to Brexit hell.

Man... what a self-inflicted wound Brexit was... yikes.

This has probably already been posted or overlooked but there is what seems to be new model suggesting new conversion kit/pieces for a Nurgle Daemon Prince on GW front page.

That's a kitbashed Daemon Prince with the head from a Plague Drone.

No thats just an old conversion thats been around for yearsvits just the normal DP kit with a plague drone head

Yeah, that model can be seen in the old codex as well.

I hear that model actually has all the death guard releases on his person. He's still wandering out in the world jealously guarding them to this very day, they say.

Lets be honest, it's probably much farther back and we'd need a bunch of those " Your parcel is here " signs as difficult to see the GW orders are.

Well, according to the source of that picture, that is Kent Airport which isn't even close to any route to cross the channel

Well anticipation is one of the best parts of life, just think of all the anticipation you can enjoy.

Well, I already have access to all the rules, and due to the lock-down most of my games will be in TTS anyways. I don't mind it being a little late, no one involved can do anything about it anyways.

I guess GW should think about re-opeinging their EU warehouses which they closed down some years ago if they want to deliver anything on time in future.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, according to the source of that picture, that is Kent Airport which isn't even close to any route to cross the channel

And I don't care how fast they drive, those trucks are never going to be able to take off.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, according to the source of that picture, that is Kent Airport which isn't even close to any route to cross the channel

And I don't care how fast they drive, those trucks are never going to be able to take off.

Big mek: "Hold my beer."

My codex arrived today.

And GW is going to send me my replacement PM Hero model with tracked delivery, so fair play to them there. It wasn't their fault the post lost it.

Now to see if my Mortal Realms replacement stuff arrives

Does anyone else feel bad asking for replacement stuff even though it is perfectly valid? I know it's correct thing to do (And tbf I never once had to ask for a replacement, it was always offered.

I Just always think the people on the other side are judging me and wondering if I am lying haha

Doohicky wrote:
Does anyone else feel bad asking for replacement stuff even though it is perfectly valid? I know it's correct thing to do (And tbf I never once had to ask for a replacement, it was always offered.

I once got a batch of Battlefield in a Box terrain that had several broken pieces. I told them about it and they replaced everything twice over.

 Jidmah wrote:


I guess GW should think about re-opeinging their EU warehouses which they closed down some years ago if they want to deliver anything on time in future.

Apparently there's been a huge influx of British companies doing just that in the Netherlands.

 lare2 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


I guess GW should think about re-opeinging their EU warehouses which they closed down some years ago if they want to deliver anything on time in future.

Apparently there's been a huge influx of British companies doing just that in the Netherlands.

Seeing that's the recommendation by UK goverment no surprise

Still seems to be a clear shortage of stock in the UK, so would have thought that would have knock ons for the rest of the world, carparks in Kent or otherwise.

Don't expect to see a conventional Plague Marine kit I ordered until at least mid-Feb, if then.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's a kitbashed Daemon Prince with the head from a Plague Drone.

Oh ok.

Damn

Doohicky wrote:
Does anyone else feel bad asking for replacement stuff even though it is perfectly valid? I know it's correct thing to do (And tbf I never once had to ask for a replacement, it was always offered.

I Just always think the people on the other side are judging me and wondering if I am lying haha

No, as you have already paid for it, and the loss for them to replace is really just the time and fees to post it (the raw materials for a single model are so cheap as to be essentially free). That fairly small processing cost is worth it to them in your and other's goodwill. We feel safer buying stuff from them (knowing they will sort it out if something goes wrong), so we are happy to keep buying in future.

I assume that they have the ability to check up on individual purchaser's/addresses' number of claims vs. number of purchases, so someone actually trying to rip them off is going to get noticed after a couple of goes. If I order, say, 5 items a year and 3 of them "go missing in the post" or "didn't get packed" I imagine they might get suspicious. If I ordered 500 items a year, then 3 losses/mistakes might be considered a plausible amount. Those numbers are a guess but I'd expect big retail operations to keep an eye on that sort of thing.

I think it might have happened a couple of times over my decades of buying GW (though I never got Finecast). No problem sorting when it happened.

Still no codex. I guess I'm going to buy the digital copy so I can play until my book arrives. Oh wait...

That's a kitbashed Daemon Prince with the head from a Plague Drone.

They aren't allowed to do that. That head doesn't come in the Daemon Prince kit...

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

That's a kitbashed Daemon Prince with the head from a Plague Drone.

They aren't allowed to do that. That head doesn't come in the Daemon Prince kit...

They've been showing off converted outriders a lot. GW doesn't seem to be as strict with showing conversions recently

They've been showing off converted outriders a lot. GW doesn't seem to be as strict with showing conversions recently

Yeah. It was a joke. I was poking fun at the Death Guard options gak storm.

 Jidmah wrote:
Still no codex. I guess I'm going to buy the digital copy so I can play until my book arrives. Oh wait...

Interesting. Wandered into a (somewhat) local game store today since I was out for other business and it was barely a mile out of my way. They had a pile. And 10 copies of Indomitus, 2 of the Lumenith box, Blood of the Phoenix, Aetherwar, and two of the Christmas armies. No idea what they're doing right, but GW apparently sends them loads of stuff.

Well they can joke and show off conversions then smack your knuckles with the ruler for daring to feel you can have 2 plasma guns at less than 10 man strong, that is wicked power gaming.

Well they can joke and show off conversions then smack your knuckles with the ruler for daring to feel you can have 2 plasma guns at less than 10 man strong, that is wicked power gaming

Yep. My relationship with GW is getting borderline abusive at this point.

They do so good to say one thing and do another. Act like they like conversions or after market work yet make rules to directly punish or remove it to " help the new player " it's a bad joke.

That said, glad some people are getting their items in finally.

Conversions? All I see on those outriders are a couple cosmetic bits taken straight from the DA and Ravenwing upgrade sprues. Stock loadout still.

Ok ? Still that isn't just in the one box, that makes players feel bad they'd need to then buy the upgrade sprues, can't have that. I mean, having two plasmas would have just involved buying two troop boxes and that was apparently way too hard and off putting to a new player.

Edit: No, I don't really believe that but that is how silly and inconsistent their ideas are. It's all good to have to track down upgrade sprues to make neat guys, but you can't buy more than one box to make a pairing weapon load out ? It really comes off dumb.

Voss wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Still no codex. I guess I'm going to buy the digital copy so I can play until my book arrives. Oh wait...

Interesting. Wandered into a (somewhat) local game store today since I was out for other business and it was barely a mile out of my way. They had a pile. And 10 copies of Indomitus, 2 of the Lumenith box, Blood of the Phoenix, Aetherwar, and two of the Christmas armies. No idea what they're doing right, but GW apparently sends them loads of stuff.

It's not sold out, it just takes 3 weeks to get to the store. I think this is a problem that is not affecting countries outside of Europe. Currently, stuff coming in form the UK is right now is treated exactly the same as stuff coming in from other countries with absolutely no trade agreement, and since GW most likely didn't send their product ahead of time to compensate for this, they now have their release stuck in customs.

Voss wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Still no codex. I guess I'm going to buy the digital copy so I can play until my book arrives. Oh wait...

Interesting. Wandered into a (somewhat) local game store today since I was out for other business and it was barely a mile out of my way. They had a pile. And 10 copies of Indomitus, 2 of the Lumenith box, Blood of the Phoenix, Aetherwar, and two of the Christmas armies. No idea what they're doing right, but GW apparently sends them loads of stuff.

Issue is UK decided to make it MUCH harder for business to sell stuff to EU(prime minister is famously having said about this prospect f*** business) and it's starting to show(and worst is not here yet).

It's not that it's sold out. It's paperwork in transportation. Local store here is waiting as well. There's days worth of delays for trucks in UK trucks going to EU. That's with much reduced(at one point 40% less than what they expected around that time) truck traffic and almost half the trucks going from UK to EU going empty without goods(it's cheaper for companies. Indeed some companies are literally paying for truck companies to come back empty so the trucks gets back to use faster).

And this isn't going to be much better in future as papers and checks are permanent. Even if process is smoothed out it's simple math. If you have 10,000 trucks(average daily amount last year) going and each gets delayed by 30 seconds(which is little....) that's 5000 minutes wasted per day.

US has it easier due to own warehouse and production capability. GW might be considering reopening european ones sooner or later. That's the goverment recommendation for UK companies to cope with this anyway.

tneva82 wrote:
Issue is UK decided to make it MUCH harder for business to sell stuff to EU(prime minister is famously having said about this prospect f*** business) and it's starting to show(and worst is not here yet).

It's not that it's sold out. It's paperwork in transportation. Local store here is waiting as well. There's days worth of delays for trucks in UK trucks going to EU. That's with much reduced(at one point 40% less than what they expected around that time) truck traffic and almost half the trucks going from UK to EU going empty without goods(it's cheaper for companies. Indeed some companies are literally paying for truck companies to come back empty so the trucks gets back to use faster).

And this isn't going to be much better in future as papers and checks are permanent. Even if process is smoothed out it's simple math. If you have 10,000 trucks(average daily amount last year) going and each gets delayed by 30 seconds(which is little....) that's 5000 minutes wasted per day.

US has it easier due to own warehouse and production capability. GW might be considering reopening european ones sooner or later. That's the goverment recommendation for UK companies to cope with this anyway.

This is getting incredibly dangerously close to politics - but its not strictly true. First there is seemingly almost no DG stock in the UK - or at least what exists is flying out the door from the various stores. You cannot for instance buy regular Plague Marines for love or money. Codexes are seemingly be scoured from shops.

Also the UK is not responsible for EU bureaucracy. Most of the issues you are seeing right now are because the EU has imposed the full rules from 1st January (as is entirely their right - but problems are inevitable), while the UK has (mostly) given a 6 month grace period, with the new rules applying to various goods only to begin on 1st July. This is why you have the current asymmetric trade issues.

Quit with the Brexit crap. I've listened to comparable unsubstantiated rambling from both sides since 2016 and cannot be chewed with it. I come here for DG info not more inane Brexit waffle.

On the US front, has anyone been experiencing extremely long processing times when ordering direct from GW?

I ordered a lot of stuff about ten days ago which has since gone out of stock, but my order status hasn't changed at all. I know Covid slowed them down, but my last order during Covid didn't feel this delayed.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
On the US front, has anyone been experiencing extremely long processing times when ordering direct from GW?

I ordered a lot of stuff about ten days ago which has since gone out of stock, but my order status hasn't changed at all. I know Covid slowed them down, but my last order during Covid didn't feel this delayed.

My Direchasm order was unusually long. Still waiting for my Death Guard stuff.

My local USA GW store had the Death Guard codex and new terrain yesterday.. wish I had the spousal permission to spend, but hadn't the hobby budget

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
On the US front, has anyone been experiencing extremely long processing times when ordering direct from GW?

I ordered a lot of stuff about ten days ago which has since gone out of stock, but my order status hasn't changed at all. I know Covid slowed them down, but my last order during Covid didn't feel this delayed.

Several people locally have had that issue. They said they have finally started getting their orders over the past couple of weeks though.

EDIT: I want to add t hat our LGS has been getting mostly everything before release day, though backfilling that stock once it's gone has taken a long time.

@ tneva82

Just go to warhammer world. May have to self isolate for a while first on arrival first.

There is still stock there on various items that are not online. Plus you can even take your own ham sandwiches when visiting the uk. unlike us that travel the other way.

To be honest seeing how things are playing out with the state of the eu and bureaucracy of the state of their vaccine roll out. It's just inviting grandfather nurgle to take residence there.

Good luck.

 Jidmah wrote:

 lare2 wrote:
Quit with the Brexit crap. I've listened to comparable unsubstantiated rambling from both sides since 2016 and cannot be chewed with it. I come here for DG info not more inane Brexit waffle.

Slow, endless sufferings seems to be totally on topic to me

That tickled me

Codex: Death Guard FAQ is out:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/JO62MoTw7DJ1MzcW.pdf

 Jidmah wrote:
Codex: Death Guard FAQ is out:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/JO62MoTw7DJ1MzcW.pdf

Barely anything.

Either they knocked it out of the park with Death Guard, or there haven't been enough games to find more errors.

Couple of big fix/nerfs in there.

Biggest one is the change to flash outbreak. No more contagions from hell blades.

I dunno, I'd rank the Daemon Prince change as possibly being bigger.

What rules modify movement if difficult terrain does not count as modifying?
I am sure there are loads of examples, but my lack of any play time since lockdown means I can't think of them.

Inexorable advance isn't exactly knocking down trees as a rule is it?

Doohicky wrote:
What rules modify movement if difficult terrain does not count as modifying?
I am sure there are loads of examples, but my lack of any play time since lockdown means I can't think of them.

Inexorable advance isn't exactly knocking down trees as a rule is it?

Some psychic powers and stratagems.

So massive nerf to DG Legion Trait then.

The vehicle version only worked on vehicles no one took, and now the infantry version only works on very specific circumstances and may come up once in a blue moon

But hey!!! We get to rapid fire bolters on the move.... Yayyyy

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Codex: Death Guard FAQ is out:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/JO62MoTw7DJ1MzcW.pdf

Barely anything.

Either they knocked it out of the park with Death Guard, or there haven't been enough games to find more errors.

Its a REALLY good book, with very few duds, and lots of interesting options. I wish every army ended up with this tier of book, but considering their strengths were immediately dwarfed by the very next Codex, I don't think we can hope for much.

DG looks honestly more scary to me than DA, so I'm not sure I'm following you on the "dwarfed" definition.

Doohicky wrote:
What rules modify movement if difficult terrain does not count as modifying?

Apparently it has to _specifically_ modify the model's Move characteristic.
So it would ignore Tenebrous Curse from the Space Marine Phobos librarian discipline (or at least that aspect of it- halve the model's move characteristic) but wouldn't affect things that simply reduce movement. Especially at the moment, because so many 8th edition books didn't draw a clear distinction. Maybe by the end of 9th this will all be really clear (barring a mid-edition paradigm shift that walks back the style guide)

Basically its another 'well, technically' rules interpretation that is valid but causes confusion with GW's habit of writing non-specific rules half the time.


On the other hand, the change to the Daemon Prince is huge, as DG are no longer forced to have a pile of sorcerers if they want more than 1 HQ choice.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Codex: Death Guard FAQ is out:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/JO62MoTw7DJ1MzcW.pdf

Barely anything.

Either they knocked it out of the park with Death Guard, or there haven't been enough games to find more errors.

Its a REALLY good book, with very few duds, and lots of interesting options. I wish every army ended up with this tier of book, but considering their strengths were immediately dwarfed by the very next Codex, I don't think we can hope for much.

yeah, you might be fine with uncustomizable charachters and paragrafs for specific loadouts for you basic troops that you dare infringe upon must be punished..
I am not and this is nonsense for any chaos faction but now i'll shut up before i will get inevitably shouted down by gw believers.

 Dysartes wrote:
I dunno, I'd rank the Daemon Prince change as possibly being bigger.

Yeah, I think 3 DG Daemon Princes are pretty decent now in a battalion.

 whembly wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
I dunno, I'd rank the Daemon Prince change as possibly being bigger.

Yeah, I think 3 DG Daemon Princes are pretty decent now in a battalion.

Not allowed. Still one DP per detachment, just no longer one DP OR Lord per detachment.

Before: 1 DP OR Lord per detachment
Now: 1 DP per detachment AND 1 Lord per detachment.

Not Online!!! wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Codex: Death Guard FAQ is out:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/JO62MoTw7DJ1MzcW.pdf

Barely anything.

Either they knocked it out of the park with Death Guard, or there haven't been enough games to find more errors.

Its a REALLY good book, with very few duds, and lots of interesting options. I wish every army ended up with this tier of book, but considering their strengths were immediately dwarfed by the very next Codex, I don't think we can hope for much.

yeah, you might be fine with uncustomizable charachters and paragrafs for specific loadouts for you basic troops that you dare infringe upon must be punished..
I am not and this is nonsense for any chaos faction but now i'll shut up before i will get inevitably shouted down by gw believers.

Except the book is legit awesome fun to play and build armies with, is doing well in tournaments and has tons of customization options for characters and unit champions whose only "drawback" is not having to hunt for bits.

The decisions to limit daemon princes, blightlords and plague marines to exact model specifications might be a mistake, but not an error. This FAQ fixed errors.

Doohicky wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
I dunno, I'd rank the Daemon Prince change as possibly being bigger.

Yeah, I think 3 DG Daemon Princes are pretty decent now in a battalion.

Not allowed. Still one DP per detachment, just no longer one DP OR Lord per detachment.

Before: 1 DP OR Lord per detachment
Now: 1 DP per detachment AND 1 Lord per detachment.

D'oh... you're right.

Still not too shabby.

Oh yeah. Totally agree, much nicer now.
The way it was locked by the one DP per detachment AND one LotDG per detachment meant I was 99% sure it shouldn't have had the LotDG keyword, but couldn't asume until they fixed it

They didn't fix the pathetic Plague Marine and Blightlord entries. Amazing job, GW.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They didn't fix the pathetic Plague Marine and Blightlord entries. Amazing job, GW.

Because they don't consider it broken, no matter how asinine the wargear options are.

Boy oh boy am I looking forward to the DE Codex now.

"One in every 5 models may take a Dark Lance. One in every 5 models may take a Heat Lance. One in every..."

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They didn't fix the pathetic Plague Marine and Blightlord entries. Amazing job, GW.

Because they don't consider it broken, no matter how asinine the wargear options are.

Boy oh boy am I looking forward to the DE Codex now.

"One in every 5 models may take a Dark Lance. One in every 5 models may take a Heat Lance. One in every..."

I'd be okay with warrior squads being allowed to take a blaster, shredder, splinter cannon, and dark lance per 10.

That Inexorable Advance FAQ doesn't make sense. It contradicts the part where IA also allows you to ignore penalties to Advance and Charge rolls.

So does IA work against penalties to Advance and Charge or not?

I kinda scratch my head on the IA ruling, feels stupid but eh.

Demon prince thing I am happy about.

Keeping the crap weapon set ups, for that I still curse GW to all the gods old and new.

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Codex: Death Guard FAQ is out:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/JO62MoTw7DJ1MzcW.pdf

Barely anything.

Either they knocked it out of the park with Death Guard, or there haven't been enough games to find more errors.

Its a REALLY good book, with very few duds, and lots of interesting options. I wish every army ended up with this tier of book, but considering their strengths were immediately dwarfed by the very next Codex, I don't think we can hope for much.

yeah, you might be fine with uncustomizable charachters and paragrafs for specific loadouts for you basic troops that you dare infringe upon must be punished..
I am not and this is nonsense for any chaos faction but now i'll shut up before i will get inevitably shouted down by gw believers.

Except the book is legit awesome fun to play and build armies with, is doing well in tournaments and has tons of customization options for characters and unit champions whose only "drawback" is not having to hunt for bits.

The decisions to limit daemon princes, blightlords and plague marines to exact model specifications might be a mistake, but not an error. This FAQ fixed errors.

That doesn't make it any less infuriating or bode well for the other dexes though.
But maybee i am at this stage just an old grognard.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Codex: Death Guard FAQ is out:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/JO62MoTw7DJ1MzcW.pdf

Barely anything.

Either they knocked it out of the park with Death Guard, or there haven't been enough games to find more errors.

Its a REALLY good book, with very few duds, and lots of interesting options. I wish every army ended up with this tier of book, but considering their strengths were immediately dwarfed by the very next Codex, I don't think we can hope for much.

yeah, you might be fine with uncustomizable charachters and paragrafs for specific loadouts for you basic troops that you dare infringe upon must be punished..
I am not and this is nonsense for any chaos faction but now i'll shut up before i will get inevitably shouted down by gw believers.

Except the book is legit awesome fun to play and build armies with, is doing well in tournaments and has tons of customization options for characters and unit champions whose only "drawback" is not having to hunt for bits.

The decisions to limit daemon princes, blightlords and plague marines to exact model specifications might be a mistake, but not an error. This FAQ fixed errors.

That doesn't make it any less infuriating or bode well for the other dexes though.
But maybee i am at this stage just an old grognard.

Welcome to the grognard side, we have cookies.

Not Online!!! wrote:
That doesn't make it any less infuriating or bode well for the other dexes though.
But maybee i am at this stage just an old grognard.

I think DG players just aren't as shocked about the effect on their army as other people are about the implication it likely has on their army - especially CSM.
There are multiple reasons for that:
1) The vast majority of DG players started collecting them in 8th. Unless you did some major conversion work over the last three years like changing 10 PM to dual knives or building 10 plasma blightlords, the effect on your army is likely no bigger than the usual impact of getting a new codex, when you have to reconfigure units because the rules changed. Plasma losing 18" rapid fire, much more limited access to re-rolls and overcharge now frying two wound marines or three wound terminators has much more impact on weapon choice than the odd block of rules apparently written by The Riddler.
2) The change isn't actually a nerf to plague marines. Not only did plague marines get significantly better despite no longer being able two carry two BL/plasma guns at 5, they also can take additional weapons in units of 10 - which synergizes well with the new tollkeeper tallyman.
3) Judging from painting blogs, armies on display, etc, most of the plague marines out there are just models ETB or DI sets with mostly cosmetic conversions. The change really only affects units build from the multi-part kit, and most of that can be mitigated by switching models from unit to another.
4) Blightlords with all combi-melta/plasma/flamers were mostly considered a waste of points, so the incentive to convert them was not high.
5) No one cares about the spitter on the daemon prince.
6) The codex is hands down awesome. Besides the firstborn vehicles everything in the codex is decent and there are multiple ways to play the army - which is quite feat for a codex with less than 20 non-character datasheets. And it actually feels like playing deathguard, not like jumping through hoops and relying on combos in order to win games.

TL;DR: Most people aren't actually affected by the more limited wargear options, and many of those who are gained a lot more from the codex than they lost.

All the bright sides in the world don't take away the weapon set up changes are lame. I agree the book feels good but those weapon choices feel dumb still. It will feel worse if they do that kinda dumb crap to other armies. Sure, DG can survive the change but I really still don't like it, never will and don't like what it could mean to other books following this road.

I think everyone agrees on that, but it doesn't change that the book is great.

It's just a shame that GW have made a decision that's quite the opposite of many other ones in regard to the 9th changes (as in, it slows the game down instead of streamlining it). I play against DG quite a bit and while I do agree that it's a really fun and cool book that rewards you in all the right ways, I still think it's a slog every time the PMs get into CC because they now have 4 different CC profiles that we need to run through instead of 1 or 2.

It was, for me as an outsider looking in, the one thing I really wanted them to change. It's less fun to play against (IMO) and the implications for future codices aren't great. (Although the distinction for difficult terrain and IA seems like it could become a nightmare with new codices and unique abilities down the line).

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
That Inexorable Advance FAQ doesn't make sense. It contradicts the part where IA also allows you to ignore penalties to Advance and Charge rolls.

So does IA work against penalties to Advance and Charge or not?

Yes, it does. It just happens to be that Difficult Terrain isn't a penalty to Advance or Charge. It is essentially a charge against your movement. I don't know if anything else that impacts Move, Advance, or Charge isn't a modifier.

It just means that for GW the difficult ground is meant to be something that forces you to go up and down continously.

Look at it as requiring 2" of vertical movement to cross, it makes more sense that way.

The effects of the strats and powers from the new codici, are affecting the roll, not the distance.

The more 9th codici roll out, the more IA will become relevant.

 alextroy wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
That Inexorable Advance FAQ doesn't make sense. It contradicts the part where IA also allows you to ignore penalties to Advance and Charge rolls.

So does IA work against penalties to Advance and Charge or not?

Yes, it does. It just happens to be that Difficult Terrain isn't a penalty to Advance or Charge. It is essentially a charge against your movement. I don't know if anything else that impacts Move, Advance, or Charge isn't a modifier.

How is Difficult Ground not a modifier?

[...] any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature, subtract 2" from the maximum distance that every model in that unit can move (to a minimum of 0).

Compare that to the Custode's Tagglefoot Grenade stratagem:

[...] Your opponent must reduce that unit’s Movement characteristic or charge distance by the result until the end of the phase.

If GW's logic is that Difficult Ground doesn't modify the Movement characteristic, then wouldn't the precedent be that any rule that only modifies your Advance or Charge distance not ignorable?
If it's because Difficult doesn't modify the Advance or Charge rolls specifically but just the maximum movement of those moves, then wouldn't there be precedent for Death Guard units to not be able to ignore the penalty from Tanglefoot Grenades when charging? It doesn't specifiy "Charge roll" anywhere.

It just doesn't make sense. If they don't want IA to ignore Difficult Ground then fine, all the power to them. It should be an errata though, and not an FAQ that ignores the Advancing and Charging parts of both rules and basically implies that any rule that doesn't modify the Move characteristic can't be ignored.

It makes sense, its just overly nitpicky rules writing that doesn't mesh well with GW's indifference to writing technically precise rules.

Difficult ground _is_ a modifier, but its not a modifier to the unit's move characteristic. They've basically put the onus on the players to double check any ability that modifies movement and parse the wording to see if it affects movement or Move Characteristic.

---
I also suspect that GW's solution to Tanglefoot Grenades will be to rewrite that strat whenever the 9e edition Custards book comes out. GW has made it really clear that temporary problems resulting from un-updated 8th edition books aren't a priority and not their problem. 9th edition's teething problems won't be solved until most of the armies are rewritten.

Voss wrote:
GW has made it really clear that temporary problems resulting from un-updated 8th edition books aren't a priority and not their problem. 9th edition's teething problems won't be solved until most of the armies are rewritten.

And given the 3 year cycle about 6 months before 10th edition comes out.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
That Inexorable Advance FAQ doesn't make sense. It contradicts the part where IA also allows you to ignore penalties to Advance and Charge rolls.

So does IA work against penalties to Advance and Charge or not?

Yes, it does. It just happens to be that Difficult Terrain isn't a penalty to Advance or Charge. It is essentially a charge against your movement. I don't know if anything else that impacts Move, Advance, or Charge isn't a modifier.

How is Difficult Ground not a modifier?

[...] any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature, subtract 2" from the maximum distance that every model in that unit can move (to a minimum of 0).

Compare that to the Custode's Tagglefoot Grenade stratagem:

[...] Your opponent must reduce that unit’s Movement characteristic or charge distance by the result until the end of the phase.

If GW's logic is that Difficult Ground doesn't modify the Movement characteristic, then wouldn't the precedent be that any rule that only modifies your Advance or Charge distance not ignorable?
If it's because Difficult doesn't modify the Advance or Charge rolls specifically but just the maximum movement of those moves, then wouldn't there be precedent for Death Guard units to not be able to ignore the penalty from Tanglefoot Grenades when charging? It doesn't specifiy "Charge roll" anywhere.

It just doesn't make sense. If they don't want IA to ignore Difficult Ground then fine, all the power to them. It should be an errata though, and not an FAQ that ignores the Advancing and Charging parts of both rules and basically implies that any rule that doesn't modify the Move characteristic can't be ignored.

Inexorable Advance is very clear:
Anything that changes your Movement Characteristic, Advance rolls, or charge rolls are ignored. Difficult Ground does not change any of these. It just reduces the maximum distance you can move. It doesn't happen before you move or when you roll the dice, only once a model in the unit enters the terrain piece.

It feels very pedantic and counterintuitive though. I think the correct move would have been to eratta it such that it works how players will assume it does (and probably will still assume it does unless they are very diligent with their rules).

That is one of the key GW problems. Such rapid generational rules design where you can wait near a whole edition for a new book, then get it to enjoy it for a couple months before your book is made pointless feeling once more.

They really need the books out much much quicker and then stretch model releases out over the time before the edition is done.

I think the opposite; slow down, take some more time to iron out the kinks. Cross reference with other parts of development to make sure they are on the same page.

Or just adopt whatever they do for AoS. It has it's flaws but 40k codex writing just seems a bit... clusterfethy by comparison.

I can see that to, but that would mean they'd need to slow down in edition roll out to do all this fine tuning work. Which I'd be fine with as well.

I think a slower edition churn with proper work done so all the books will feel better, can come out closer to one another, is a win for game balance and feel of the over all system. That however I don't think we will ever see. Closest we came was the index roll out in the start of 8th.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It feels very pedantic and counterintuitive though.

That's what litterally rules end up being. That's why it's not a perfect solution as well.

Guess they didn't change that because they wanted the rule to protect Death Guard from enemy special rules / psychic powers / strategems hindering their move, but not terrain (because they still wanted it to matter for the children of Mortarion as well).

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I can see that to, but that would mean they'd need to slow down in edition roll out to do all this fine tuning work. Which I'd be fine with as well.

I think a slower edition churn with proper work done so all the books will feel better, can come out closer to one another, is a win for game balance and feel of the over all system. That however I don't think we will ever see. Closest we came was the index roll out in the start of 8th.

Supposedly the 9th ed books were written at the same time. Not officially from GW, but that was the subtex I've picked up from playtesters. Could be wrong though!

We will see I suppose and if the edition churn stays the same it'll end up meaning little to nothing as yet again by the time they all come out, it'll mean little to those on the end of the cycle.

I guess the Dark Eldar book will be the canary in the coal mine with if that is the case.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the opposite; slow down, take some more time to iron out the kinks. Cross reference with other parts of development to make sure they are on the same page

this won't work either
problem is that they not make rules within the game system but each codex within its own bubble

best case would be to write all the Codex rules the same time, by the same team so that those are coherent and based on the same design ideas

the longer the time between the Codex is the more time they might have to get things done, but also more time to get new ideas and change the design (or base the rules on the test-design for the next edition they are working on)

I don't get it, why is this a bad trait? This seems like a perfectly reasonable trait comparing it to other similar traits that exist. The movement thing is absolutely the weakest part of it, the main benefit obviously being ignoring modifiers to charge rolls which do occasionally crop up and do always suck ass, but move and shoot bolters at bolter discipline and heavy on infantry and vehicles fire at full in melee is a perfectly normal, average trait.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They didn't fix the pathetic Plague Marine and Blightlord entries. Amazing job, GW.

Funny that, Deathwatch players plainly told you this will happen from the very point idiotic loadout restrictions debiuted in our 7th edition book. Had there been immediate protest/pushback from all the other 40K players, GW would have backtracked and binned that nonsense. But somehow, all the other SM/CSM players just mostly laughed at DW plight for 4 progressively worse and worse books, until the ship long sailed and GW started to roll the exact same changes in other books too

So, did you protest the DW change? Because if not, let me play you the world's smallest sad song violin

 Irbis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They didn't fix the pathetic Plague Marine and Blightlord entries. Amazing job, GW.

Funny that, Deathwatch players plainly told you this will happen from the very point idiotic loadout restrictions debiuted in our 7th edition book. Had there been immediate protest/pushback from all the other 40K players, GW would have backtracked and binned that nonsense. But somehow, all the other SM/CSM players just mostly laughed at DW plight for 4 progressively worse and worse books, until the ship long sailed and GW started to roll the exact same changes in other books too

So, did you protest the DW change? Because if not, let me play you the world's smallest sad song violin

Uh yeah I've been annoyed with how Deathwatch been handled for a while.

the_scotsman wrote:
I don't get it, why is this a bad trait? This seems like a perfectly reasonable trait comparing it to other similar traits that exist. The movement thing is absolutely the weakest part of it, the main benefit obviously being ignoring modifiers to charge rolls which do occasionally crop up and do always suck ass, but move and shoot bolters at bolter discipline and heavy on infantry and vehicles fire at full in melee is a perfectly normal, average trait.

They sound good on paper but in reality aren't.

For example the vehicles part of the rule. It only affects Helbrutes, Landraiders, Preds and Rhinos.
Rhinos, it's pointless, LRs and Preds are not taken in DG armies.
So it is only useful for a single model in the codex. And only if they are in a protracted combat.
Buff for Heavies on infantry.... They don't exist except for Reaper Autocannon which is a terrible weapon anyway and is never taken.
The bolters part. DG are expensive models. There aren't that many bolters. If lucky the rule adds a few more wounds over the course of a game.
If the inexorable advance rule was on a normal Marine army it would be amazing, but for DG the buffs are on such a limited number of models, or on weapons that are so lackluster it is barely worth it.

Plenty of other stuff in the codex is great, I am not complaining, but inexorable advance when compared to other 9th ed 'Chapter tactics' is extremely weak

Yeah, what makes Death Guard great is everything else, their "subfaction trait" is... you can play all your games without it and it would not make a difference.

 Irbis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They didn't fix the pathetic Plague Marine and Blightlord entries. Amazing job, GW.

Funny that, Deathwatch players plainly told you this will happen from the very point idiotic loadout restrictions debiuted in our 7th edition book. Had there been immediate protest/pushback from all the other 40K players, GW would have backtracked and binned that nonsense. But somehow, all the other SM/CSM players just mostly laughed at DW plight for 4 progressively worse and worse books, until the ship long sailed and GW started to roll the exact same changes in other books too

So, did you protest the DW change? Because if not, let me play you the world's smallest sad song violin

Deathwatch have always been unique, in more ways than just that. And we have gotten numerous codex between 7th and now that did not do what has been done to PM and blightlords, reinforcing the notion that it was just deathwatch which were supposed to be that way. Your snark is misplaced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
I don't get it, why is this a bad trait? This seems like a perfectly reasonable trait comparing it to other similar traits that exist. The movement thing is absolutely the weakest part of it, the main benefit obviously being ignoring modifiers to charge rolls which do occasionally crop up and do always suck ass, but move and shoot bolters at bolter discipline and heavy on infantry and vehicles fire at full in melee is a perfectly normal, average trait.

It's not the effectiveness, it's how counterintuitive and even nonsensical the ruling is. It makes the game harder to play, for no benefit.

arcanum wrote:

Voss wrote:
GW has made it really clear that temporary problems resulting from un-updated 8th edition books aren't a priority and not their problem. 9th edition's teething problems won't be solved until most of the armies are rewritten.

And given the 3 year cycle about 6 months before 10th edition comes out.

Yep! I can wait 3 years, hoping that either they fix PM/Blights or roll that nonsense out to everything...
Then will be a question if I bother to update build anything or scrap it and do whatever with such nice minis.