Ork nobz could end up real weird.
1 kombi scorcha, 2 kombi rokkits, kustom shootas entirely blink out of existence (but exist for warbosses and meganobz), 1 killsaw, 4 big choppas and power klaws.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Also, chosen...

Technically Chosen don't have a miniature kit, so...

Not Online!!! wrote:
Guard squads? well no longer do you have plasma guns , feth everyone with plas guardsmen i guess.

They already did that with Brood Brothers despite the cult conversion kit working just as well with the command squad box, but they don't sell a command squad w/brood brother sprue box, so GSC players just get screwed there (notice they can't take heavy weapons either, for the same reason!), so really anything is possible when it comes to GW and their fething inane no model=no rule bull gak.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Also, chosen...

Technically Chosen don't have a miniature kit, so...

Not Online!!! wrote:
Guard squads? well no longer do you have plasma guns , feth everyone with plas guardsmen i guess.

They already did that with Brood Brothers despite the cult conversion kit working just as well with the command squad box, but they don't sell a command squad w/brood brother sprue box, so GSC players just get screwed there (notice they can't take heavy weapons either, for the same reason!), so really anything is possible when it comes to GW and their fething inane no model=no rule bull gak.

And guess what you were right! I already made a thread for this and someone already defended it!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Also, chosen...

Technically Chosen don't have a miniature kit, so...

Not Online!!! wrote:
Guard squads? well no longer do you have plasma guns , feth everyone with plas guardsmen i guess.

They already did that with Brood Brothers despite the cult conversion kit working just as well with the command squad box, but they don't sell a command squad w/brood brother sprue box, so GSC players just get screwed there (notice they can't take heavy weapons either, for the same reason!), so really anything is possible when it comes to GW and their fething inane no model=no rule bull gak.

They can take a HWT, its just randomly in the paragraph above the weapon profiles rather than in wargear options. But yeah, they got gakked for special weapons.

 Nostromodamus wrote:


So I can still take 7-strong units then? That’s all I care about.

Yes, you still can.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This book makes me very frightened for what they're going to do to Chaos.

"A Squad of Havocs may have up to 4 heavy weapons, but no more than 1 Reaper Chaincannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Autocannons, 2 Missile Launchers or 2 Lascannons"

On the other hand, it's easier to balance units if you limit choices.

No more "I take the best weapon x4 on each unit". Because that was part of the imbalance you like to complain about.

Sarouan wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This book makes me very frightened for what they're going to do to Chaos.

"A Squad of Havocs may have up to 4 heavy weapons, but no more than 1 Reaper Chaincannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Autocannons, 2 Missile Launchers or 2 Lascannons"

On the other hand, it's easier to balance units if you limit choices.

No more "I take the best weapon x4 on each unit". Because that was part of the imbalance you like to complain about.

That wasn't the complaint and you know that, so don't make up gak.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This book makes me very frightened for what they're going to do to Chaos.

"A Squad of Havocs may have up to 4 heavy weapons, but no more than 1 Reaper Chaincannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Autocannons, 2 Missile Launchers or 2 Lascannons"

Basic CSM could be the real horror story. Not enough bolters or chainswords in the kit for a full 10 man squad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That wasn't the complaint and you know that, so don't make up gak.

The people who are really upset by this change are competitive players who build their units so that everything was optimized with the former rules. Fact is, the options in the current kit didn't allow what they did - they had to buy more boxes or bitz from other people (more likely boxes, since these options were actually looked after by most of the people anyway).

You know very well that building your army to be optimized only works as long as the current meta is valid. Now it's not anymore, because the rules change in every codex. Adapt or die, as they say.

How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarouan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That wasn't the complaint and you know that, so don't make up gak.

The people who are really upset by this change are competitive players who build their units so that everything was optimized with the former rules. Fact is, the options in the current kit didn't allow what they did - they had to buy more boxes or bitz from other people (more likely boxes, since these options were actually looked after by most of the people anyway).

You know very well that building your army to be optimized only works as long as the current meta is valid. Now it's not anymore, because the rules change in every codex. Adapt or die, as they say.

This is nonsense. You don't need to be a tournament player to not take one of every heavy weapon, you just need a brain. I mean, I magnetized everything on my Plague Marines and Terminators so I'm not really hit by the change, it still sucks for every hobbyist that likes to convert.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

This is nonsense. You don't need to be a tournament player to not take one of every heavy weapon, you just need a brain. I mean, I magnetized everything on my Plague Marines and Terminators so I'm not really hit by the change, it still sucks for every hobbyist that likes to convert.

Well your conversions are still valid. You just need to buy more miniatures to make more valid units.

Or, I don't know, just take from your collection what is needed to play if you have a bigger army and not just a single 2000 points list.

Besides, let's be honest : it's the people who optimize the weapon choices in their units that are really bothered here. The casual players who make their units just because they look cool and not caring about taking the best choices in the rules, they're not affected the same way. Most likely, they can still play the same.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Also, chosen...

Technically Chosen don't have a miniature kit, so...

Not Online!!! wrote:
Guard squads? well no longer do you have plasma guns , feth everyone with plas guardsmen i guess.

They already did that with Brood Brothers despite the cult conversion kit working just as well with the command squad box, but they don't sell a command squad w/brood brother sprue box, so GSC players just get screwed there (notice they can't take heavy weapons either, for the same reason!), so really anything is possible when it comes to GW and their fething inane no model=no rule bull gak.

chances are high they' ll eventually end up with a kit imo...

But as gad mentioned, screw havocs, CSM is where the real issue will show up..

as for the brood brother nonsense.....

FFS gw...

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

Oh man. They really don't want us to touch their precious, mastercrafted miniatures.

Possibly too late to help some. But.....

Hachette have have a re-stock of Conquest, so a bunch of DG characters can now be had for £7.99 a pop. Amongst other goodies. Suffice to say if you want DG, the following link might help bag some bargains.

https://hachettepartworks.com/en-en/warhammer-40k-conquest/?p=4

So, riddle me this:

Why does the Miasmic Malignifier have a degrading profile?

The only thing that degrades is its Strength. None of its rules use its Strength.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Basic CSM could be the real horror story. Not enough bolters or chainswords in the kit for a full 10 man squad.

Wow. You're right. I hadn't even thought of that.

Sarouan wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

This is nonsense. You don't need to be a tournament player to not take one of every heavy weapon, you just need a brain. I mean, I magnetized everything on my Plague Marines and Terminators so I'm not really hit by the change, it still sucks for every hobbyist that likes to convert.

Well your conversions are still valid. You just need to buy more miniatures to make more valid units.

Or, I don't know, just take from your collection what is needed to play if you have a bigger army and not just a single 2000 points list.

Besides, let's be honest : it's the people who optimize the weapon choices in their units that are really bothered here. The casual players who make their units just because they look cool and not caring about taking the best choices in the rules, they're not affected the same way. Most likely, they can still play the same.

I don't think equipping a squad for a purpose is nearly as hard as you think it is.

If I have a tank-hunting Havoc squad, they get Lascannons. Maybe a single Missile Launcher for the Flakk Missile Strat, but that's about it.
If I have a horde-munching Havoc squad, they get Chaincannons, or Heavy Bolters if I want to munch on MEQ hordes and save some points.

It's not some kind of tournament-level borderline-cheating level of optimization to have a squad equipped for a purpose.

I think that this change in weapon options is more indicative GW is pushing their Power Level (PL) system to be more used for list building.

If weapon choices are severily limited for most of the units, then the main complaint about PL being too wildly imbalanced with different combos of weapons is mostly solved. Because you won't be able to abuse the PL system the same way than before, simply because you can't just spam the best weapons for free.

 JNAProductions wrote:

If I have a tank-hunting Havoc squad, they get Lascannons. Maybe a single Missile Launcher for the Flakk Missile Strat, but that's about it.
If I have a horde-munching Havoc squad, they get Chaincannons, or Heavy Bolters if I want to munch on MEQ hordes and save some points.

It's not some kind of tournament-level borderline-cheating level of optimization to have a squad equipped for a purpose.

Optimization is still optimization, no matter the intent. In your case, you just optimized depending on the role you give to your unit. That's pretty much what every competitive player does.

Sarouan wrote:
I think that this change in weapon options is more indicative GW is pushing their Power Level (PL) system to be more used for list building.

If weapon choices are severily limited for most of the units, then the main complaint about PL being too wildly imbalanced with different combos of weapons is mostly solved. Because you won't be able to abuse the PL system the same way than before, simply because you can't just spam the best weapons for free.

Isn't half the fun of the hobby being able to make them your guys?

If you can only use pre-determined loadouts, that's not very conducive to that.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

This is nonsense. You don't need to be a tournament player to not take one of every heavy weapon, you just need a brain. I mean, I magnetized everything on my Plague Marines and Terminators so I'm not really hit by the change, it still sucks for every hobbyist that likes to convert.

Well your conversions are still valid. You just need to buy more miniatures to make more valid units.

Or, I don't know, just take from your collection what is needed to play if you have a bigger army and not just a single 2000 points list.

Besides, let's be honest : it's the people who optimize the weapon choices in their units that are really bothered here. The casual players who make their units just because they look cool and not caring about taking the best choices in the rules, they're not affected the same way. Most likely, they can still play the same.

I don't think equipping a squad for a purpose is nearly as hard as you think it is.

If I have a tank-hunting Havoc squad, they get Lascannons. Maybe a single Missile Launcher for the Flakk Missile Strat, but that's about it.
If I have a horde-munching Havoc squad, they get Chaincannons, or Heavy Bolters if I want to munch on MEQ hordes and save some points.

It's not some kind of tournament-level borderline-cheating level of optimization to have a squad equipped for a purpose.

Imagine thinking taking 2 Blight Launchers or 2 Plasma Guns instead of one of each was tournament level thinking. The things people say to defend GW on this garbage are unbelievable.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

I have 30 Blightlords. Roughly a 3rd of them have combi meltas or flamers. Well, guess I won’t be running all of them...

Stupid stupid stupid. Someone needs to call GW out for this on social media. The whole game is about “your guys” but they keep telling converters and kitbashers to feth the feth off.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Isn't half the fun of the hobby being able to make them your guys?

If you can only use pre-determined loadouts, that's not very conducive to that.

Come on, most of the optimized armies don't use elaborate conversions - they just buy more boxes and use the parts that can be spammed for optimization.

You can still convert your plague marines to look awesome. You never had to use the weapon choices in rules for that. In fact, that's certainly the worst way to do it in any competitive game ever, since any veteran player know what is strong in former meta has good chances to be nerfed in the next.

Truth is, what is really annoying is the change on combi weapons for terminators - and that applies only to terminators having boltguns, not special weapons. Because the special weapons can still be taken twice like before, it's just not at the min number anymore.

Sarouan wrote:
Optimization is still optimization, no matter the intent. In your case, you just optimized depending on the role you give to your unit. That's pretty much what every competitive player does.

You have a real problem with competitive players, and you're thinking that making logical choices with wargear is somehow bad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

This is nonsense. You don't need to be a tournament player to not take one of every heavy weapon, you just need a brain. I mean, I magnetized everything on my Plague Marines and Terminators so I'm not really hit by the change, it still sucks for every hobbyist that likes to convert.

Well your conversions are still valid. You just need to buy more miniatures to make more valid units.

Or, I don't know, just take from your collection what is needed to play if you have a bigger army and not just a single 2000 points list.

Besides, let's be honest : it's the people who optimize the weapon choices in their units that are really bothered here. The casual players who make their units just because they look cool and not caring about taking the best choices in the rules, they're not affected the same way. Most likely, they can still play the same.

I don't think equipping a squad for a purpose is nearly as hard as you think it is.

If I have a tank-hunting Havoc squad, they get Lascannons. Maybe a single Missile Launcher for the Flakk Missile Strat, but that's about it.
If I have a horde-munching Havoc squad, they get Chaincannons, or Heavy Bolters if I want to munch on MEQ hordes and save some points.

It's not some kind of tournament-level borderline-cheating level of optimization to have a squad equipped for a purpose.

Imagine thinking taking 2 Blight Launchers or 2 Plasma Guns instead of one of each was tournament level thinking. The things people say to defend GW on this garbage are unbelievable.

I dunno. I'm choking on the 'just buy more, don't stop at a 2000 point list like a dirty optimizer.'
And somehow buy, buy, buy is what 'casual players' do...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
Optimization is still optimization, no matter the intent. In your case, you just optimized depending on the role you give to your unit. That's pretty much what every competitive player does.

You have a real problem with competitive players, and you're thinking that making logical choices with wargear is somehow bad.

Not at all, I did it myself. But I'm not whining when GW changes the meta. I expect it to happen, TBH ; the competitive scene is why people keep complaining about imbalance in GW games. Because competitive players will never put restrictions on themselves if these restrictions aren't in the rules themselves, that's how they work.

Now the rules are clear, aren't they ? And they apply to everyone.

There's a significant difference between "changing the meta" and completely invalidating a loadout.

Sarouan wrote:
I think that this change in weapon options is more indicative GW is pushing their Power Level (PL) system to be more used for list building.

I

You also said you can use 7 man squad PM's

Whats the PL for that on the new codex?

 Marshal Loss wrote:
There's a significant difference between "changing the meta" and completely invalidating a loadout.

And also not applying it the same way in the same bloody datasheet! BLTs can still take all axes or swords despite the kit not having enough to equip the whole squad with them. They can still double up on heavy weapons and flails.

Dollars to donuts says the box still has the illegal squad load out on it too.

So, I'm pretty frustrated with Games Workshop here. And not for what we know about Plague Marines, but how they misrepresented things in the previews. Their misrepresentation has actually cost people money. For instance, they mistakenly said that Possessed were getting an extra wound. They're only 2 wounds. I know that I am one of many people (at least that I can tell from the Death Guard Facebook group) that have spent money buying kits to come up with a good number of Nurgle Possessed based on what we've been told. Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not. Some people have pre-ordered this model with that knowledge only to find that it is incorrect.

Although this is not egregious enough to be called a bait and switch, it feels that way to the customer. This is just sloppy writing and editing from a company who is known for both, but when even your announcements can't be trusted, you know you've got issues. This is especially true during a time when it is harder to get products and shipping takes longer than normal. It just compounds the frustration.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

I have 30 Blightlords. Roughly a 3rd of them have combi meltas or flamers. Well, guess I won’t be running all of them...

Stupid stupid stupid. Someone needs to call GW out for this on social media. The whole game is about “your guys” but they keep telling converters and kitbashers to feth the feth off.

Urgh, I hate this. If I want 4 combi-plasmas on a terminator squad and I want to convert them, and that was okay in the last book, it should stay okay. There's bound to be loads of people that now have illegal squads. Utterly boneheaded decision.

 puma713 wrote:
So, I'm pretty frustrated with Games Workshop here. And not for what we know about Plague Marines, but how they misrepresented things in the previews. Their misrepresentation has actually cost people money. For instance, they mistakenly said that Possessed were getting an extra wound. They're only 2 wounds. I know that I am one of many people (at least that I can tell from the Death Guard Facebook group) that have spent money buying kits to come up with a good number of Nurgle Possessed based on what we've been told. Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not. Some people have pre-ordered this model with that knowledge only to find that it is incorrect.

Although this is not egregious enough to be called a bait and switch, it feels that way to the customer. This is just sloppy writing and editing from a company who is known for both, but when even your announcements can't be trusted, you know you've got issues. This is especially true during a time when it is harder to get products and shipping takes longer than normal. It just compounds the frustration.

That's some malarky. I'm happy with the conversion I made, but there's a big difference between 2 wounds and 3 wounds.

 puma713 wrote:
Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not.

The Lord of Virulence one is pretty weird because the description for him, both in the codex and on the GW website, explicitly mentions Daemon Engines:

Tubes and pipes erupt in profusion from the Lord of Virulence’s armour. These gout noxious fumes are putrid eruptions whose hue and stench guide the fire of artillery engines behind the lines. In their wake, their flensefrond cloaks leave a trail of sickening mucosal slime for hungry Daemon Engines to follow.

Re: Plague Marine and Terminator load out options

This seems to be a classic case of careful what you ask for:

Players: This kit doesn't include enough bits to create the perfect unit composition I want. Those money-grubbers at GW are trying to get me to buy multiple kits just for a few bits!

GW: Fine. We've adjusted the unit options to ensure you can build the unit from the available options.

Players: That's not what we wanted!

 Marshal Loss wrote:
There's a significant difference between "changing the meta" and completely invalidating a loadout.

Not really, GW did that multiple times before in previous editions.

List building (thus including the way you build your units) was always part of the meta.

And again, it's really specific to terminators with combi-weapons here. Other previous configurations still apply, just with 10 soldiers strong squads instead of 5. It really sucks for them, that's for sure...but honestly, I expected that with the new changes to blightlord terminators.

 Jidmah wrote:
Or, in other words, someone who was intentionally losing every game they play due to horrible list building is now forced to either play better units or ask his opponent for permission.

Sarouan wrote:
The people who are really upset by this change are competitive players who build their units so that everything was optimized with the former rules.

I like that in this thread, I've both been accused of making a deliberately rubbish army, so I should be ok with it being made unplayable; AND I've been accused of being too competetive, so I should be ok with my unit loadouts being made unplayable.

Mortarion is completely broken at 490 pts: it takes 1785 pts of AM Rapier Laser Destroyer (21 models to be exact with a S10 AP -4 3+D3 Damage) to kill a Mortarion with -1 to hit from DG Psychic Power in one round.
Absolutely insane and ludicrous, betting on a points nerfs in the first FAQ for DG since it actually needs to be well over 600 pts for his profile based on tankyness alone (and I'm not even counting the numerous utility AND damage buffs)

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Or, in other words, someone who was intentionally losing every game they play due to horrible list building is now forced to either play better units or ask his opponent for permission.

Sarouan wrote:
The people who are really upset by this change are competitive players who build their units so that everything was optimized with the former rules.

I like that in this thread, I've both been accused of making a deliberately rubbish army, so I should be ok with it being made unplayable; AND I've been accused of being too competetive, so I should be ok with my unit loadouts being made unplayable.

Well, no, since the "worst" combo for terminators before was to just take them without options and you can still do that in the new rules.

It's just the limited weapon choices that changed, in the end.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
So, I'm pretty frustrated with Games Workshop here. And not for what we know about Plague Marines, but how they misrepresented things in the previews. Their misrepresentation has actually cost people money. For instance, they mistakenly said that Possessed were getting an extra wound. They're only 2 wounds. I know that I am one of many people (at least that I can tell from the Death Guard Facebook group) that have spent money buying kits to come up with a good number of Nurgle Possessed based on what we've been told. Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not. Some people have pre-ordered this model with that knowledge only to find that it is incorrect.

Although this is not egregious enough to be called a bait and switch, it feels that way to the customer. This is just sloppy writing and editing from a company who is known for both, but when even your announcements can't be trusted, you know you've got issues. This is especially true during a time when it is harder to get products and shipping takes longer than normal. It just compounds the frustration.

That's some malarky. I'm happy with the conversion I made, but there's a big difference between 2 wounds and 3 wounds.

What are the odds that 2 wounds is just a typo?

a_typical_hero wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
So, I'm pretty frustrated with Games Workshop here. And not for what we know about Plague Marines, but how they misrepresented things in the previews. Their misrepresentation has actually cost people money. For instance, they mistakenly said that Possessed were getting an extra wound. They're only 2 wounds. I know that I am one of many people (at least that I can tell from the Death Guard Facebook group) that have spent money buying kits to come up with a good number of Nurgle Possessed based on what we've been told. Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not. Some people have pre-ordered this model with that knowledge only to find that it is incorrect.

Although this is not egregious enough to be called a bait and switch, it feels that way to the customer. This is just sloppy writing and editing from a company who is known for both, but when even your announcements can't be trusted, you know you've got issues. This is especially true during a time when it is harder to get products and shipping takes longer than normal. It just compounds the frustration.

That's some malarky. I'm happy with the conversion I made, but there's a big difference between 2 wounds and 3 wounds.

What are the odds that 2 wounds is just a typo?

Hopefully 100%.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Mortarion is completely broken at 490 pts: it takes 1785 pts of AM Rapier Laser Destroyer (21 models to be exact with a S10 AP -4 3+D3 Damage) to kill a Mortarion with -1 to hit from DG Psychic Power in one round.
Absolutely insane and ludicrous, betting on a points nerfs in the first FAQ for DG since it actually needs to be well over 600 pts for his profile based on tankyness alone (and I'm not even counting the numerous utility AND damage buffs)

I believe that is known as a feature, not a bug. They don't want you to be able to easily delete the Primarch of the Death Guard from the table in one turn. Sorta like the rules for Ghazghkull and the C'Tan. In this case, rather than giving him a single rule that makes it next to impossible, they just made him really resilient.

 alextroy wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Mortarion is completely broken at 490 pts: it takes 1785 pts of AM Rapier Laser Destroyer (21 models to be exact with a S10 AP -4 3+D3 Damage) to kill a Mortarion with -1 to hit from DG Psychic Power in one round.
Absolutely insane and ludicrous, betting on a points nerfs in the first FAQ for DG since it actually needs to be well over 600 pts for his profile based on tankyness alone (and I'm not even counting the numerous utility AND damage buffs)

I believe that is known as a feature, not a bug. They don't want you to be able to easily delete the Primarch of the Death Guard from the table in one turn. Sorta like the rules for Ghazghkull and the C'Tan. In this case, rather than giving him a single rule that makes it next to impossible, they just made him really resilient.

Plus, it takes...



Now, is that a fair comparison? Depends on whether you think Eradicators are the balance point to aim for. I don't-but some people think they're fine.

Now, is that a fair comparison? Depends on whether you think Eradicators are the balance point to aim for. I don't-but some people think they're fine.

At this point in time I am willing to accept that GW considers Eradicators to be fine which means everything has to be somehow balanced in comparison to them.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why does the Miasmic Malignifier have a degrading profile?

The only thing that degrades is its Strength. None of its rules use its Strength.

The answer, of course, is "because it has more than 9 wounds".

You have to consider the Knights matchup. A degraded Malignifier is much easier to Death Grip than one at full wounds.

 JNAProductions wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
So, I'm pretty frustrated with Games Workshop here. And not for what we know about Plague Marines, but how they misrepresented things in the previews. Their misrepresentation has actually cost people money. For instance, they mistakenly said that Possessed were getting an extra wound. They're only 2 wounds. I know that I am one of many people (at least that I can tell from the Death Guard Facebook group) that have spent money buying kits to come up with a good number of Nurgle Possessed based on what we've been told. Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not. Some people have pre-ordered this model with that knowledge only to find that it is incorrect.

Although this is not egregious enough to be called a bait and switch, it feels that way to the customer. This is just sloppy writing and editing from a company who is known for both, but when even your announcements can't be trusted, you know you've got issues. This is especially true during a time when it is harder to get products and shipping takes longer than normal. It just compounds the frustration.

That's some malarky. I'm happy with the conversion I made, but there's a big difference between 2 wounds and 3 wounds.

What are the odds that 2 wounds is just a typo?

Hopefully 100%.

Exactly. Equally as frustrating is that the editing for the codex may be so poor that the wounds characteristic is a typo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:

Now, is that a fair comparison? Depends on whether you think Eradicators are the balance point to aim for. I don't-but some people think they're fine.

At this point in time I am willing to accept that GW considers Eradicators to be fine which means everything has to be somehow balanced in comparison to them.

Which is why I'm looking hard at using Mortarion's Anvil rather than the Droning. Turning off rerolls To-Hit and To-Wound will increase the Death Guard army's resilience even further. And, in a pinch, if I need to hamstring their movement with the Droning's warlord trait, I can just use Flash Outbreak.

If Possessed have the same transport rules as terminators, then they should have the same wounds as terminators.

Edit: Sorry if this has already been mentioned and I missed it, but is daemon summoning still in the codex? I've heard it's gone.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
If Possessed have the same transport rules as terminators, then they should have the same wounds as terminators.

Edit: Sorry if this has already been mentioned and I missed it, but is daemon summoning still in the codex? I've heard it's gone.

Agree on transporting. And you're right, summoning is gone. It is still a rule in the Daemons Codex, so I believe it can still be used, but I think we can assume it is going away in the future of Chaos codices.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Um, why are people saying seven man units are gone? There is a 7 man unit of PMs in the combat patrol box. Or is the box illegal for some other reason now then?

I guess not illegal if your ok with having 10 man unit represented as 6,7,8... but as far I could see on the new DEX previews only 5-10 is discriminated while the previous you had 5-7-10-15-20.

The new reboxed PM is also like that Patrol.

Dude, you are just flat wrong on this. 7 is just as legal to play as it was before. You can have 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 plague marines and pay 21 points for every marine.
Oh, and the previous one was exactly the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
There's a significant difference between "changing the meta" and completely invalidating a loadout.

And also not applying it the same way in the same bloody datasheet! BLTs can still take all axes or swords despite the kit not having enough to equip the whole squad with them. They can still double up on heavy weapons and flails.

Dollars to donuts says the box still has the illegal squad load out on it too.

Well, the one positive thing you can say about this mess is that no matter how you build the boxes, you will end up with a legal unit. Outside of that... yeah, I'm glad I didn't buy any plasma bits and just went with all bolters for my blightlords.
Not that worried about plague marines though, for the squads of 7 I just need to switch a blight launcher for a plasma guy to turn 4 illegal squads into 4 legal ones. The squads of 10 with up to 6 special weapons also feels silly awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
If Possessed have the same transport rules as terminators, then they should have the same wounds as terminators.

Edit: Sorry if this has already been mentioned and I missed it, but is daemon summoning still in the codex? I've heard it's gone.

No traces of it, but the actual summoning rules are in Codex: Daemons and as long as they stay there, DG can keep summoning daemons. You just have no more stratagem or relic support to make it easier.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Possibly too late to help some. But.....

Hachette have have a re-stock of Conquest, so a bunch of DG characters can now be had for £7.99 a pop. Amongst other goodies. Suffice to say if you want DG, the following link might help bag some bargains.

https://hachettepartworks.com/en-en/warhammer-40k-conquest/?p=4

Poxwalker sprue is available, chosen sprue is gone though

The biggest problem I have with the way Blightlords load out works now is that they've taken one of our best anti tank options, and in the process kinda left them in a role where they're not really great at anything other than soaking wounds. I can see maybe dropping a squad in with a plague spewer and combi flamer to clear screens, but is that really worth it? Their cc weapons are fine, but why not take Deathshrouds instead?

Jidmah wrote:Well, the one positive thing you can say about this mess is that no matter how you build the boxes, you will end up with a legal unit

Not... actually true.
My icon of despair model doesn't have the now absolutely _mandatory_ boltgun (he was for the melee unit and could be built with 2 plague knives in the old codex).

I also can't put together my six special weapons (for 14 models) in a way that works with the new rules. I wanted plague belchers and meltaguns particularly, and those don't overlap the 'right way.' The only out is disassembly or buying more.

 l0k1 wrote:
The biggest problem I have with the way Blightlords load out works now is that they've taken one of our best anti tank options, and in the process kinda left them in a role where they're not really great at anything other than soaking wounds. I can see maybe dropping a squad in with a plague spewer and combi flamer to clear screens, but is that really worth it? Their cc weapons are fine, but why not take Deathshrouds instead?

This problem also kinda existed in 8th. It's why I think Contemptor Dreadnoughts were kinda popular with people

 puma713 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
If Possessed have the same transport rules as terminators, then they should have the same wounds as terminators.

Edit: Sorry if this has already been mentioned and I missed it, but is daemon summoning still in the codex? I've heard it's gone.

Agree on transporting. And you're right, summoning is gone. It is still a rule in the Daemons Codex, so I believe it can still be used, but I think we can assume it is going away in the future of Chaos codices.

Yeah, it'll probably disappear from the 9th edition Daemons codex. Sucks for Word Bearers.

So I see Death Guard have their own version of the Power of the Machine Spirit strategem, which means their Land Raiders have the MACHINE SPIRIT keyword, and the other Legions will probably get the same. So I guess I have to start emailing gw to get a DAEMONIC MACHINE SPIRIT keyword added to all of our fw vehicles that should have it. Again. Less than a year since they finally fixed that discrepancy. *sigh*

 l0k1 wrote:
The biggest problem I have with the way Blightlords load out works now is that they've taken one of our best anti tank options, and in the process kinda left them in a role where they're not really great at anything other than soaking wounds. I can see maybe dropping a squad in with a plague spewer and combi flamer to clear screens, but is that really worth it? Their cc weapons are fine, but why not take Deathshrouds instead?

The shooting from Blightlords is significantly better and they're cheaper. You're right that the direct comparison makes Blightlords look less appealing though. They don't have multi-damage melee off the top of my head, do they?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
The biggest problem I have with the way Blightlords load out works now is that they've taken one of our best anti tank options, and in the process kinda left them in a role where they're not really great at anything other than soaking wounds. I can see maybe dropping a squad in with a plague spewer and combi flamer to clear screens, but is that really worth it? Their cc weapons are fine, but why not take Deathshrouds instead?

The shooting from Blightlords is significantly better and they're cheaper. You're right that the direct comparison makes Blightlords look less appealing though. They don't have multi-damage melee off the top of my head, do they?

Only with the flail.

I'm a little confused by the Lord of the Death Guard keyword restriction. Daemon Princes appear to have the keyword. Does that mean you can only take either a DP or a lord in a detachment? Or can you take both? Why do they specifically call out DPs in the second half of the rule?
If you can only take one of either we are severely lacking on the HQ front!

Abaddon303 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
The biggest problem I have with the way Blightlords load out works now is that they've taken one of our best anti tank options, and in the process kinda left them in a role where they're not really great at anything other than soaking wounds. I can see maybe dropping a squad in with a plague spewer and combi flamer to clear screens, but is that really worth it? Their cc weapons are fine, but why not take Deathshrouds instead?

The shooting from Blightlords is significantly better and they're cheaper. You're right that the direct comparison makes Blightlords look less appealing though. They don't have multi-damage melee off the top of my head, do they?

Only with the flail.

I'm a little confused by the Lord of the Death Guard keyword restriction. Daemon Princes appear to have the keyword. Does that mean you can only take either a DP or a lord in a detachment? Or can you take both? Why do they specifically call out DPs in the second half of the rule?
If you can only take one of either we are severely lacking on the HQ front!

Yep. You can take a single 'Lord of the DG' character and 1+ Plaguecasters/Sorcerers in Terminator armor. There are no other options (beyond breaking detachment purity or taking more detachments)

General chaos marines may have to fear this as well, but at least there are Sorcerers, Apostles, Discos, Master of Executions, and Warpsmiths for them to be a bit picky.

Won't be at all surprised if those who threw off the shackles of Doctrine and Dogma will end up with far less freedom in unit and loadout selection.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

This is confirmed?

So, what's the reaction to the 'overcast' psychic powers? (Beating the WC by 3 or more for an increased effect)

I'm a little surprised by it, if only because loyalist SM didn't get it, and it seems a shift in the psychic power paradigm (other than Smite, of course).

Plague Wind is pretty nasty for shifting to a MW on 5+ rather than 6 if you cast on 9+ (and you still roll for every model in the unit).

 puma713 wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

This is confirmed?

Yes.

Great, my entire army is illegal now because they decided to feth with the weapon load out options on Plague Marines and Terminators. I'm actually really pissed off now.

Voss wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Well, the one positive thing you can say about this mess is that no matter how you build the boxes, you will end up with a legal unit

Not... actually true.
My icon of despair model doesn't have the now absolutely _mandatory_ boltgun (he was for the melee unit and could be built with 2 plague knives in the old codex).

The instructions tell you that the model with the the sigil (it's no longer an icon) is supposed to be build with a boltgun though, and the other build is the one double-knife guy you can have now.

I'm not saying it's great, you just can't feth up your unit by following the instructions anymore. You could before.

I also can't put together my six special weapons (for 14 models) in a way that works with the new rules. I wanted plague belchers and meltaguns particularly, and those don't overlap the 'right way.' The only out is disassembly or buying more.

Model-wise plague belchers and meltaguns are mutually exclusive. The new weapon options are essentially the instruction manual of the plague marine box turned into rules.

Wow, Terminators are just as bad as Plague Marines almost.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I'm a little confused by the Lord of the Death Guard keyword restriction. Daemon Princes appear to have the keyword. Does that mean you can only take either a DP or a lord in a detachment? Or can you take both? Why do they specifically call out DPs in the second half of the rule?
If you can only take one of either we are severely lacking on the HQ front!

Daemon Prince, Typhus, Chaos Lord, Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour, Lord of Contagion and Lord of Virulence all are Lords of Chaos and have the re-roll ones to hit aura.
The only other HQ options are Malignant Plaguecaster and Sorcerer in Terminator Armor.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

This is confirmed?

Yes.

Wow that's fething awful. Just... just a really crappy choice which takes a dump on players in the name of what? Chapterhouseism?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Mortarion is completely broken at 490 pts: it takes 1785 pts of AM Rapier Laser Destroyer (21 models to be exact with a S10 AP -4 3+D3 Damage) to kill a Mortarion with -1 to hit from DG Psychic Power in one round.
Absolutely insane and ludicrous, betting on a points nerfs in the first FAQ for DG since it actually needs to be well over 600 pts for his profile based on tankyness alone (and I'm not even counting the numerous utility AND damage buffs)

So Morty may very well be overpowered, but it won't be because of how many points it takes to shoot him to death in one turn. That is far too niche a measurement to base judgement on, even if it weren't tied to one specific forge world unit.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

This is confirmed?

Yes.

Wow that's fething awful. Just... just a really crappy choice which takes a dump on players in the name of what? Chapterhouseism?

But hey, look on the bright side! The studio squad of them is actually a legal loadout now when it wasn't throughout all of 8th. Now people apparently have gak for brains so can't work out how to kitbash or that all weapons in a box are not usable at the same time so GW made it so those things aren't a problem! Win/win!
/S (if it wasn't obvious)

So what about running a LoV with Viscous Death Deep strikes in with a squad of Blightlord Terminators with 1 combi flamer, 1 blight launcher, 1 Plague Spewer on the Champion with Viscous Death, 1 Flail, and 1 combi melta. They come in hose stuff with some S6 auto hits, some are buffed by Viscous Death and the LoV's aura for better AP, then charge in with flail and axes to mop up?

Wait, I can have both a blight launcher and a plague spewer now? Finally those models from Felthius Cohort will have a use.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
No DttFE, no universal FNP, in fact only FNP as a WL trait, no 4+ FNP as a WLT anymore, severe limitations on special weapons, severe limitations of HQ's, no granade bombardment strat, no VotLW.
Drones got nerfed, MBH got somewhat buffed even if they lost their smoke. Deadly Pathogens is meh at best, No more Aura of Rust, PM will melt and die like flies (fitingly enough) flies due to all MW running around everywhere.
Good luck trying to build melee DG now! And if the -probably fake- thing about not being able to include other psychers in your army turns out to be true... I hope I don't have to explain that to you.

You are enumerating things that changed. I asked which unit got worse. If you think Foetid Bloat-Drones and Plague Marines are worse than before, then you are assessing their value incorrectly.

What MW list are you referring to? How many MW can it reliably produce per round?


If you haven't done so already, I can recommend this review:
https://www.goonhammer.com/9th-edition-codex-death-guard-the-goonhammer-review/

Bloat drones lost a wound and can't protect chars anymore. Sure, they don't degrade, but I'd rather take a degrading bodyguard for my Daemon princes (well, daemon prince -singular- nowadys. THAT is WAY worse) than soemthing that doesn't degrade. Now, the singular DP has to be played way more cautiously. And no more Supurating Plate for him. And in order for him to survive, we HAVE to take the WLT that gives him the 5+ FNP.
He used to have 3+´armour, 5+ inv (daemon) and 5+ FNP base. BASE. Now, he can't even get 2+ armour (no relic), he has to spend the WL trait on getting a FNP at all and he can't be protected by his drones.
That. Is. worse. Do I need to draw you a map? The -1D is just a slap in the face. And I bet he's gonna go up in price as well. He's already the most expensive DP in the game.

Also, you can't take more than one model with two knives per 5 models. The same is true for axes, maces and flails. And the flails are WAAAAYY worse.
And being forced to take 10 models to get more good weapons means you can take Tallyman with you in the Rhino. And that means Tallyman has no use anymore. So, Tallyman is useless and totally invalidated.

1K sons and Tyranids can do A LOT of MW. And they do. I play against them regurarly.

 l0k1 wrote:
So what about running a LoV with Viscous Death Deep strikes in with a squad of Blightlord Terminators with 1 combi flamer, 1 blight launcher, 1 Plague Spewer on the Champion with Viscous Death, 1 Flail, and 1 combi melta. They come in hose stuff with some S6 auto hits, some are buffed by Viscous Death and the LoV's aura for better AP, then charge in with flail and axes to mop up?

The LoV's aura only triggers on sixes to wound, and plague spewers are just S5 and can't be given to the champion. Trying 9" charges without any help also doesn't work too well.

 Jidmah wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
So what about running a LoV with Viscous Death Deep strikes in with a squad of Blightlord Terminators with 1 combi flamer, 1 blight launcher, 1 Plague Spewer on the Champion with Viscous Death, 1 Flail, and 1 combi melta. They come in hose stuff with some S6 auto hits, some are buffed by Viscous Death and the LoV's aura for better AP, then charge in with flail and axes to mop up?

The LoV's aura only triggers on sixes to wound, and plague spewers are just S5 and can't be given to the champion. Trying 9" charges without any help also doesn't work too well.

Deadly Pathogens adds +1 S to the weapon it's applied too in addition to the effect it grants, which is where I got S6 and Pathogens can be taken by Champions. So as it stands the Champion can't get any weapon upgrades other than combis? I assumed since it said 'One Terminator...' that they could.

 puma713 wrote:
So, I'm pretty frustrated with Games Workshop here. And not for what we know about Plague Marines, but how they misrepresented things in the previews. Their misrepresentation has actually cost people money. For instance, they mistakenly said that Possessed were getting an extra wound. They're only 2 wounds. I know that I am one of many people (at least that I can tell from the Death Guard Facebook group) that have spent money buying kits to come up with a good number of Nurgle Possessed based on what we've been told. Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not. Some people have pre-ordered this model with that knowledge only to find that it is incorrect.

Although this is not egregious enough to be called a bait and switch, it feels that way to the customer. This is just sloppy writing and editing from a company who is known for both, but when even your announcements can't be trusted, you know you've got issues. This is especially true during a time when it is harder to get products and shipping takes longer than normal. It just compounds the frustration.

I think that with this comment I've read 20 times about the legendary third wound on Possesed today. GW never mentioned it (in warhammer community or anywhere else).

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/30/the-most-improved-units-from-codex-death-guard/

T5, DR, 4A, plagued weapons, that's it. For some reason people read 3W and I'm still wondering why, they didn't even hint it.

Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

The third wound was mentioned somewhere, I am pretty sure... I can't find it now, so perhaps the article was updated. I thought it was in the 4th rule preview and was just a single line. But maybe this is all some shared insanity.

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Damage overflow is now a stratagem.

 l0k1 wrote:
Deadly Pathogens adds +1 S to the weapon it's applied too in addition to the effect it grants, which is where I got S6 and Pathogens can be taken by Champions. So as it stands the Champion can't get any weapon upgrades other than combis? I assumed since it said 'One Terminator...' that they could.

Only the regular dudes are "Blightlord Terminators", the champion is a "Blightlord Champion". Model names are defined in the chart on the top part of the datasheet.

 Jidmah wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
Deadly Pathogens adds +1 S to the weapon it's applied too in addition to the effect it grants, which is where I got S6 and Pathogens can be taken by Champions. So as it stands the Champion can't get any weapon upgrades other than combis? I assumed since it said 'One Terminator...' that they could.

Only the regular dudes are "Blightlord Terminators", the champion is a "Blightlord Champion". Model names are defined in the chart on the top part of the datasheet.

True enough. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around a loadout for Blightlord Terminators that is actually worth using lol.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Damage overflow is now a stratagem.

I know. Taking something that a unit or wepaon had naturally as part of it being that unit or weapon and making you pay command points for it is called "nerf".

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Damage overflow is now a stratagem.

I know. Taking something that a unit or wepaon had naturally as part of it being that unit or weapon and making you pay command points for it is called "nerf".

To me it is more of a lateral move as this can now benefit more plague weaponry.

 Kall3m0n wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
No DttFE, no universal FNP, in fact only FNP as a WL trait, no 4+ FNP as a WLT anymore, severe limitations on special weapons, severe limitations of HQ's, no granade bombardment strat, no VotLW.
Drones got nerfed, MBH got somewhat buffed even if they lost their smoke. Deadly Pathogens is meh at best, No more Aura of Rust, PM will melt and die like flies (fitingly enough) flies due to all MW running around everywhere.
Good luck trying to build melee DG now! And if the -probably fake- thing about not being able to include other psychers in your army turns out to be true... I hope I don't have to explain that to you.

You are enumerating things that changed. I asked which unit got worse. If you think Foetid Bloat-Drones and Plague Marines are worse than before, then you are assessing their value incorrectly.

What MW list are you referring to? How many MW can it reliably produce per round?


If you haven't done so already, I can recommend this review:
https://www.goonhammer.com/9th-edition-codex-death-guard-the-goonhammer-review/

Bloat drones lost a wound and can't protect chars anymore. Sure, they don't degrade, but I'd rather take a degrading bodyguard for my Daemon princes (well, daemon prince -singular- nowadys. THAT is WAY worse) than soemthing that doesn't degrade. Now, the singular DP has to be played way more cautiously. And no more Supurating Plate for him. And in order for him to survive, we HAVE to take the WLT that gives him the 5+ FNP.
He used to have 3+´armour, 5+ inv (daemon) and 5+ FNP base. BASE. Now, he can't even get 2+ armour (no relic), he has to spend the WL trait on getting a FNP at all and he can't be protected by his drones.
That. Is. worse. Do I need to draw you a map? The -1D is just a slap in the face. And I bet he's gonna go up in price as well. He's already the most expensive DP in the game.

Drones still protect characters. Only character monster/vehicles need 10 wounds. There was an FAQ to fix the FAQ.

Also the Supurating Plate still exists doesn't it? Can't princes no longer take it?

The princes also dropped in price slightly. So you can give them the 5+++, which admittedly means you're not getting a different trait - id be tempted by the transhuman/ignore ap trait anyway.

With more attacks and strength 8 on the sword, combined with contagions, a prince is still a beat stick. I concede that dual talons is less interesting though.

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Shall I suggest reading the book before complaining?

Flail marines used to have 2d3 attacks when hateful blows were triggered, now they always get six attacks because they now have 2 attacks based and +1A from having two combat weapons, same for the great plague cleaver and power fists. The lost strength is offset by -1 toughness from nurgle's gift, you wound everything on the same roll.

In addition, for 2CP you can have all weapons in a unit gain the old flail ability - not just the flail, but also maces of contagions, great plague cleavers and even a champion's fist.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Damage overflow is now a stratagem.

I know. Taking something that a unit or wepaon had naturally as part of it being that unit or weapon and making you pay command points for it is called "nerf".

To me it is more of a lateral move as this can now benefit more plague weaponry.

Had it been a 0cp strat, then I would have agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Shall I suggest reading the book before complaining?

Flail marines used to have 2d3 attacks when hateful blows were triggered, now they always get six attacks because they now have 2 attacks based and +1A from having two combat weapons, same for the great plague cleaver and power fists. The lost strength is offset by -1 toughness from nurgle's gift, you wound everything on the same roll.

In addition, for 2CP you can have all weapons in a unit gain the old flail ability - not just the flail, but also maces of contagions, great plague cleavers and even a champion's fist.

What in the book could compensate?

Had it been d3 still, they'd have 3-9 attacks. Sure, they'll always get the happy medium, but never 9.
What I hate most though is the lack of trample. Sorry... "Carry-over". One flail wound will ever only kill a maximum of one single model.

shabadoit wrote:
Also the Supurating Plate still exists doesn't it? Can't princes no longer take it?

I just checked and nothing indicates that daemon princes can't take it. Only vehicles and named characters are excluded. You could even upgrade his spitter with a deadly pathogen if you really want to do that.
The only real change to the plate is that it now does a single MW on a 2+ if you have lost a wound, instead of one MW for each successful save on a 4+.

The princes also dropped in price slightly. So you can give them the 5+++, which admittedly means you're not getting a different trait - id be tempted by the transhuman/ignore ap trait anyway.

Suppurating plate plus that trait is going to be a very mean combo, as there will be very few weapons left that can now shot him efficiently.

 Jidmah wrote:

shabadoit wrote:
Also the Supurating Plate still exists doesn't it? Can't princes no longer take it?

I just checked and nothing indicates that daemon princes can't take it. Only vehicles and named characters are excluded. You could even upgrade his spitter with a deadly pathogen if you really want to do that.
The only real change to the plate is that it now does a single MW on a 2+ if you have lost a wound, instead of one MW for each successful save on a 4+.

The princes also dropped in price slightly. So you can give them the 5+++, which admittedly means you're not getting a different trait - id be tempted by the transhuman/ignore ap trait anyway.

Suppurating plate plus that trait is going to be a very mean combo, as there will be very few weapons left that can now shot him efficiently.

Ah ok. My mistake on the plate. It did however get severely nerfed.

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Damage overflow is now a stratagem.

I know. Taking something that a unit or wepaon had naturally as part of it being that unit or weapon and making you pay command points for it is called "nerf".

To me it is more of a lateral move as this can now benefit more plague weaponry.

Had it been a 0cp strat, then I would have agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Shall I suggest reading the book before complaining?

Flail marines used to have 2d3 attacks when hateful blows were triggered, now they always get six attacks because they now have 2 attacks based and +1A from having two combat weapons, same for the great plague cleaver and power fists. The lost strength is offset by -1 toughness from nurgle's gift, you wound everything on the same roll.

In addition, for 2CP you can have all weapons in a unit gain the old flail ability - not just the flail, but also maces of contagions, great plague cleavers and even a champion's fist.

What in the book could compensate?

Had it been d3 still, they'd have 3-9 attacks. Sure, they'll always get the happy medium, but never 9.
What I hate most though is the lack of trample. Sorry... "Carry-over". One flail wound will ever only kill a maximum of one single model.

But they went from having a possible maximum of 6 attacks, to having a guaranteed 6? I don't see how you think that's a nerf? And in situations where you are hitting 1 wound models and think you might have wounds to carry over then 1cp can let you carry over damage. That works for everything including the plague cleaver! It's amazing for 1cp!. Same with the maces. 3 attacks guaranteed regardless of charge/d doing 3 damage each.
I think you maybe need to calm down a little and fully digest the new book. A lot of what you seem to be upset about is in fact not a real issue...

 Kall3m0n wrote:
What in the book could compensate?

Had it been d3 still, they'd have 3-9 attacks. Sure, they'll always get the happy medium, but never 9.

Old codex was 2-6, new codex is 6. That is not a nerf. I suggest stopping this discussion, as you clearly know neither codex nor 9th edition's rules well enough to compare them.

What I hate most though is the lack of trample. Sorry... "Carry-over". One flail wound will ever only kill a maximum of one single model.

I guess you will have to compensate for the two less one wound models you kill on average with the extra wounds you get from knives having AP-1 and better wound rolls now.
In other news, the flail is better against marines now.

Abaddon303 wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Damage overflow is now a stratagem.

I know. Taking something that a unit or wepaon had naturally as part of it being that unit or weapon and making you pay command points for it is called "nerf".

To me it is more of a lateral move as this can now benefit more plague weaponry.

Had it been a 0cp strat, then I would have agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Shall I suggest reading the book before complaining?

Flail marines used to have 2d3 attacks when hateful blows were triggered, now they always get six attacks because they now have 2 attacks based and +1A from having two combat weapons, same for the great plague cleaver and power fists. The lost strength is offset by -1 toughness from nurgle's gift, you wound everything on the same roll.

In addition, for 2CP you can have all weapons in a unit gain the old flail ability - not just the flail, but also maces of contagions, great plague cleavers and even a champion's fist.

What in the book could compensate?

Had it been d3 still, they'd have 3-9 attacks. Sure, they'll always get the happy medium, but never 9.
What I hate most though is the lack of trample. Sorry... "Carry-over". One flail wound will ever only kill a maximum of one single model.

But they went from having a possible maximum of 6 attacks, to having a guaranteed 6? I don't see how you think that's a nerf? And in situations where you are hitting 1 wound models and think you might have wounds to carry over then 1cp can let you carry over damage. That works for everything including the plague cleaver! It's amazing for 1cp!. Same with the maces. 3 attacks guaranteed regardless of charge/d doing 3 damage each.
I think you maybe need to calm down a little and fully digest the new book. A lot of what you seem to be upset about is in fact not a real issue...

With the added attack in the new codex, yes. But that's a change to the PM, not the weapon. Had the weapon been the same as the old, it would have been maximum of 9 attacks. The weapon got nerfed, the PM got an attack boost. And you can only have one of each special weapon per 5 models. That means TAllyman is next to useless.
Yeah, the strat is 2cp. Not 1. Do you still think it's amazing?

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Ah ok. My mistake on the plate. It did however get severely nerfed.

No, it didn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
With the added attack in the new codex, yes. But that's a change to the PM, not the weapon. Had the weapon been the same as the old, it would have been maximum of 9 attacks. The weapon got nerfed, the PM got an attack boost. And you can only have one of each special weapon per 5 models. That means TAllyman is next to useless.
Yeah, the strat is 2cp. Not 1. Do you still think it's amazing?

So you are whining about a net buff to a unit because a single weapon got worse?

Oh, "tallyman is next to useless" is just more evidence that you are throwing a tantrum without even having read the codex. I suggest you do that now. Getting that angry without even having a reason to do so is not healthy.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
What in the book could compensate?

Had it been d3 still, they'd have 3-9 attacks. Sure, they'll always get the happy medium, but never 9.

Old codex was 2-6, new codex is 6. That is not a nerf. I suggest stopping this discussion, as you clearly know neither codex nor 9th edition's rules well enough to compare them.

What I hate most though is the lack of trample. Sorry... "Carry-over". One flail wound will ever only kill a maximum of one single model.

I guess you will have to compensate for the two less one wound models you kill on average with the extra wounds you get from knives having AP-1 and better wound rolls now.
In other news, the flail is better against marines now.

Yeah, it's 6 because the weapon profile changed. Had the weapon profile still been D3 attacks, it would have been 3-9 attacks. I know a lot of people think that a solid guaranteed medium is the shizzle, but to a lot of people the chance of getting 9 attacks and risking getting 3 attacks is better than guaranteed 6.

It's great that the flails are better against marines! And I'll be happy for it the one single time per year I play against space marines.

Just realised that GW actually edited the WHC article which said Possessed were going up a wound. Cheeky.

Double post

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Ah ok. My mistake on the plate. It did however get severely nerfed.

No, it didn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
With the added attack in the new codex, yes. But that's a change to the PM, not the weapon. Had the weapon been the same as the old, it would have been maximum of 9 attacks. The weapon got nerfed, the PM got an attack boost. And you can only have one of each special weapon per 5 models. That means TAllyman is next to useless.
Yeah, the strat is 2cp. Not 1. Do you still think it's amazing?

So you are whining about a net buff to a unit because a single weapon got worse?

Oh, "tallyman is next to useless" is just more evidence that you are throwing a tantrum without even having read the codex. I suggest you do that now. Getting that angry without even having a reason to do so is not healthy.

So, how is it not a nerf that it can only cause a single MW now?

No, I'm "whining" about the nerfs, not the buffs.

So you suggest Tally is gonna run behind the Rhino filled with CC marines, or are you suggesting the CC marines footslog up the board with Tally close by, only for the PM's to be shot off the table while advancing or having to spend command points on strats to keep them safe?

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
What in the book could compensate?

Had it been d3 still, they'd have 3-9 attacks. Sure, they'll always get the happy medium, but never 9.

Old codex was 2-6, new codex is 6. That is not a nerf. I suggest stopping this discussion, as you clearly know neither codex nor 9th edition's rules well enough to compare them.

What I hate most though is the lack of trample. Sorry... "Carry-over". One flail wound will ever only kill a maximum of one single model.

I guess you will have to compensate for the two less one wound models you kill on average with the extra wounds you get from knives having AP-1 and better wound rolls now.
In other news, the flail is better against marines now.

Yeah, it's 6 because the weapon profile changed. Had the weapon profile still been D3 attacks, it would have been 3-9 attacks. I know a lot of people think that a solid guaranteed medium is the shizzle, but to a lot of people the chance of getting 9 attacks and risking getting 3 attacks is better than guaranteed 6.

It's great that the flails are better against marines! And I'll be happy for it the one single time per year I play against space marines.

Wow

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, it's 6 because the weapon profile changed. Had the weapon profile still been D3 attacks, it would have been 3-9 attacks. I know a lot of people think that a solid guaranteed medium is the shizzle, but to a lot of people the chance of getting 9 attacks and risking getting 3 attacks is better than guaranteed 6.

So you are moaning about something you never had despite the end results being better than the prior version of the model (aka Plague Marine with Flail)?

Stop wailing over what could have been and start looking at the upgrade you did get. In a pure Death Guard army, the is nothing but Win here.

 alextroy wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, it's 6 because the weapon profile changed. Had the weapon profile still been D3 attacks, it would have been 3-9 attacks. I know a lot of people think that a solid guaranteed medium is the shizzle, but to a lot of people the chance of getting 9 attacks and risking getting 3 attacks is better than guaranteed 6.

So you are moaning about something you never had despite the end results being better than the prior version of the model (aka Plague Marine with Flail)?

Stop wailing over what could have been and start looking at the upgrade you did get. In a pure Death Guard army, the is nothing but Win here.

I am "moaning" about the weapon itself getting nerfed. I had the old weapon profile before.
The one extra attack is on the model carrying it, NOT the weapon itself.
The wepaon got nerfed, not the model carrying it.

No matter how you spin it, you are whining about something getting better.

Especially considering that the +1 attack is specifically to flails, great plague cleavers and power fists. All other weapons already had it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
So, how is it not a nerf that it can only cause a single MW now?

4+ chance, and you had to successfully roll a save first. More often than not, the daemon prince was simply killed without it triggering even once, and it almost never caused more than 1MW to anyone.
Now it's a 2+ chance after failing a save, so it's likely going to trigger every time you are in combat.

And in any case, no one ever take the plate for any reason but having a 2+ armor save. So even if this turns out to be weaker than before, it doesn't matter at all, and it's for sure not "severely nerfed".

Who cares about that. The real atrocity is the wargear options for for Blightlords and Plague Marines anyway. Poor layout and illogical.

 Kall3m0n wrote:
So you suggest Tally is gonna run behind the Rhino filled with CC marines, or are you suggesting the CC marines footslog up the board with Tally close by, only for the PM's to be shot off the table while advancing or having to spend command points on strats to keep them safe?

I am suggesting to not complain about a codex you haven't read.
Hint: The tallyman has changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about that. The real atrocity is the wargear options for for Blightlords and Plague Marines anyway. Poor layout and illogical.

I am painfully aware that you do not care about death guard.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
So you suggest Tally is gonna run behind the Rhino filled with CC marines, or are you suggesting the CC marines footslog up the board with Tally close by, only for the PM's to be shot off the table while advancing or having to spend command points on strats to keep them safe?

I am suggesting to not complain about a codex you haven't read.
Hint: The tallyman has changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about that. The real atrocity is the wargear options for for Blightlords and Plague Marines anyway. Poor layout and illogical.

I am painfully aware that you do not care about death guard.

I care about Marines regardless of Loyalist or Traitor. You should really be appalled by those unit entries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course you ARE the one that chose to die on the hill regarding no Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard, so what do YOU know?

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
So, how is it not a nerf that it can only cause a single MW now?

4+ chance, and you had to successfully roll a save first. More often than not, the daemon prince was simply killed without it triggering even once, and it almost never caused more than 1MW to anyone.
Now it's a 2+ chance after failing a save, so it's likely going to trigger every time you are in combat.

And in any case, no one ever take the plate for any reason but having a 2+ armor save. So even if this turns out to be weaker than before, it doesn't matter at all, and it's for sure not "severely nerfed".

No, more often than not, the DP reflected 4+ MW's back before getting killed.You based your statemnt on your experience, and mine is from my experience.
Yes, the chance of doing any amount of MW's is higher, but it will never be more than 2 per long ongoing fight at maximum. I once got charged by some gaunts. He managed to hit and wound the DP 9 times. 8 of them got reflected back. That's rare, I know, but he regularly did 3-6 MW's back in each instance of CC.

I too take the plate for the 2+ armour save. THe MW's were a really nice deterrent and a great bonus. Now that awesome bonus and deterrent is a limp "meh" at the most extreme best. It's hardly even worth taking anymore.
So, yes, it's extremely nerfed.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
So you suggest Tally is gonna run behind the Rhino filled with CC marines, or are you suggesting the CC marines footslog up the board with Tally close by, only for the PM's to be shot off the table while advancing or having to spend command points on strats to keep them safe?

I am suggesting to not complain about a codex you haven't read.
Hint: The tallyman has changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about that. The real atrocity is the wargear options for for Blightlords and Plague Marines anyway. Poor layout and illogical.

I am painfully aware that you do not care about death guard.

Oh? Has his aura extended to 72"? Or can all marines re-roll all hits in CC as long as he's on the table? Can Rhinos carry 11 models now? Does he have fly now so he can keep up with a Rhino? Or does he even have a bike? (I really wish we had bikes) Or has he lost that rule all-together and is taken for a completely different reason now? Do we get a new model that makes PM's re-roll all CC hits that doesn't take up Rhino space?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about that. The real atrocity is the wargear options for for Blightlords and Plague Marines anyway. Poor layout and illogical.

I am painfully aware that you do not care about death guard.

I care about Marines regardless of Loyalist or Traitor.

Do you now?

You should really be appalled by those unit entries.

Sorry, I'm too busy with figuring out all the awesome stuff in the new codex to get mad about having to change squad markings on something like six special weapon marines.
Heck, this mess of a rule even make squads of 10 much better, so you do all that being appalled thing, while I'm building lists so I can play the new codex tomorrow.

Of course you ARE the one that chose to die on the hill regarding no Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard, so what do YOU know?

Well, considering the glaring absence of nurgle daemons or even a single reference to summoning, I do know now that I was absolutely right on that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Oh? Has his aura extended to 72"? Or can all marines re-roll all hits in CC as long as he's on the table? Can Rhinos carry 11 models now? Does he have fly now so he can keep up with a Rhino? Or does he even have a bike? (I really wish we had bikes) Or has he lost that rule all-together and is taken for a completely different reason now? Do we get a new model that makes PM's re-roll all CC hits that doesn't take up Rhino space?

Only one way to find out.

 Jidmah wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Oh? Has his aura extended to 72"? Or can all marines re-roll all hits in CC as long as he's on the table? Can Rhinos carry 11 models now? Does he have fly now so he can keep up with a Rhino? Or does he even have a bike? (I really wish we had bikes) Or has he lost that rule all-together and is taken for a completely different reason now? Do we get a new model that makes PM's re-roll all CC hits that doesn't take up Rhino space?

Only one way to find out.

Incorrect.

Ah, I guess you are right. You could just whine about it being nerfed and someone will tell you the proper rules. Good night, sir.

Lets just talk about all the goodies shall we???

The negatives are so few and inconsequential there is no point in talking about them.

To me it seems the LOC is a worse LOV.
LOV has better buffs and interaction, has a strong shooting option and still seems a beast in CC.

The interaction with DS/BL's seems amazing.

The LOC having a +3" contagion range isn't an ability to sneeze at but does it beat out the LOV for a slot? im not sure.

Ok, late to the party but, this load out none sense, alright I didn't rage when they took away full zombie lists, I was like hey, I plague marines that's ok.

I didn't complain when they stripped the blight hauler of every special rule almost, even though I only got them to give their smoke screen for advancing troops, ok they probably just don't like it doesn't cost a ton of money to buy, oh and over costing out the rear end. Fine.

Seriously though GW these weapon loadouts are off the rails stupid.

All I read on here is " Well, just get more durr. " Ok, but my plague marines are the old models, they didn't have blight launchers, most of them are also metal, I didn't run " The cheese " they don't even have " the cheese " they have plasmas and meltas, that's it. Now I have to run them 10 as opposed to 7, which I did because I actually cared about the number.

Somehow that is power gamering yet a 10 man squad can put out even more fire power now. How is that not power gaming ? With my 3 plasma guns and 2 blight launchers with probably even more tossed in now ? That seems stronger to me.

This is so stupid and I'm not even touching on the terminator kit which is equally moronic.

I was very happy, this all stings and really annoys me. Sorry guys with combis, get screwed, sorry favored number squads.

Hell my only good thing here is the surgeon is actually worth a darn but the bell guy goes back to sucking and our HQ options is one fighty person and some wizards, pretty cheap there Conehead.

I don't know I went from very happy to that old GW feeling with the information drop.

Don't even get me started on that sweet LoV to help our plague engines, by help them I mean do jack squat with them.

Oh Baby don't hurt me no more.

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about that. The real atrocity is the wargear options for for Blightlords and Plague Marines anyway. Poor layout and illogical.

I am painfully aware that you do not care about death guard.

I care about Marines regardless of Loyalist or Traitor.

Do you now?

You should really be appalled by those unit entries.

Sorry, I'm too busy with figuring out all the awesome stuff in the new codex to get mad about having to change squad markings on something like six special weapon marines.
Heck, this mess of a rule even make squads of 10 much better, so you do all that being appalled thing, while I'm building lists so I can play the new codex tomorrow.

Of course you ARE the one that chose to die on the hill regarding no Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard, so what do YOU know?

Well, considering the glaring absence of nurgle daemons or even a single reference to summoning, I do know now that I was absolutely right on that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Oh? Has his aura extended to 72"? Or can all marines re-roll all hits in CC as long as he's on the table? Can Rhinos carry 11 models now? Does he have fly now so he can keep up with a Rhino? Or does he even have a bike? (I really wish we had bikes) Or has he lost that rule all-together and is taken for a completely different reason now? Do we get a new model that makes PM's re-roll all CC hits that doesn't take up Rhino space?

Only one way to find out.

LOL awesome stuff, just like when you said that War of the Spider was "awesome stuff", via making you pay CP for abilities that should've been standard to begin with. Yeah no, it's pathetically defending GW on their decisions.

COLD CASH wrote:
Lets just talk about all the goodies shall we???

The negatives are so few and inconsequential there is no point in talking about them.

To me it seems the LOC is a worse LOV.
LOV has better buffs and interaction, has a strong shooting option and still seems a beast in CC.

The interaction with DS/BL's seems amazing.

The LOC having a +3" contagion range isn't an ability to sneeze at but does it beat out the LOV for a slot? im not sure.

I've been wondering the same thing. In fairness there's very little difference between them. I don't think the LoV offers Blightlords very much (anything, really), as his aura only affects ranged plague weapons. Deathshroud would get more out of it, & the LoV's weapon matches their range. The LoC has some serious beatstick potential though with some of the relics on offer and the 3" boost to Droning coming out of deep strike has some serious potential imo.

Pity the LoV doesn't have the Daemon Engine ability GW said/his codex description said he'd get to differentiate him, but they're both great anyway so who cares

Guys, this is a total codex revamp. When this happens, everything changes. The feel of deathguard is definitely still there. In fact, I think the deathguard codex has turned deathguard into a more powerful army while being fluffier to boot. Because wow, we get contagions now, and there is even a secondary objective to spread our disease!

We are still super resilient, just in a different way from before. We are still slow, but we have tons of other stuff. From what I have seen so far, we are definitely not the most shooty army out there though we do some have ranged goodies. But we pack a mean punch in close combat. You do NOT want to get up close to a deathguard army (Our debilating contagions should tell you that much already).

So when the codex transforms the entire army like that. You just relearn your army. Don't cry that you can't run 20 combat plague marines anymore. Or 10 combi plasma blightlords. Just learn the new stuff.

There is actually some lore basis behind having different weapon loadouts. I remember reading how chaos space marines in general just evolve mutations on their gear or outright take the best gear they find on the battlefield. So, the biggest and meanest get the best gear.

It always stuck me as weird that a plague marine or blightlord squad would be so .. "uniform". mutations are wildly different for a reason. And you don't get to find neatly exactly 10 combi plasma for every single blightlord in your squad. (And even if you did, there will be that blightlord who insists on wanting to use a blight launcher instead cos it has fused with his hand).

Anyway, I for one would rather embrace the new condex (there is no going back anyway) and learn to roll with that instead of crying that my old army doesn't work anymore.

Guys, this is a total codex revamp.

It really isn't though. It tweaked some loadouts and the adjusted the stats of some units (most to bring them in line with the current standard). But pretty much everything is in the same role with the same general theme and intent.

A revamp doesn't usually invalidate unit options.
I can only think of a few- ork boyz losing burnas (or further back, losing access to basic weapons for 'orky' ones), space wolves (and others) losing hand flamers in the switch from 2nd to 3rd. Dark eldar gaining, then losing, their random 'elite' unit versions.
Even if it was somehow normal, that doesn't make it OK.

Telling people to lump it because they're unhappy that multiple units need to be rebuilt or replaced is just needlessly callous.

'Relearning the army' isn't the point. That happens with every new edition and codex. Rebuilding entire units (or entire FOC slots) is a time/money/enthusiasm expenditure, and its perfectly reasonable for people to be unhappy about it.

Even codex updates have often resulted in units rising and falling in terms of power level in the "meta". I don't see how you can't call this a total codex revamp. lol I think you will find very few people who agree with you that they only tweaked a few things...

If they made the change when the new kits came out people would have accepted it. The change itself is one thing, it is the execution that grinds on people. And why wouldn't it; you get these new models and go through all the extra work to kitbash/convert/bits gather a loadout you like that was 100% supported in the rules with brand new kits and a few years later those fully painted models are no longer valid.

I get people comparing the pros and cons of the new system verses the old. I do. But that is missing the point of what aggravates people, and saying something like:

 Jidmah wrote:
Ah, I guess you are right. You could just whine about it being nerfed and someone will tell you the proper rules. Good night, sir.

Is both completely insensitive to a legitimate concern and a demonstrated refusal to even make an effort to understand it. It is not hard to understand why people are upset, the concept and reasoning is not complex, it takes little thought to realize 'oh hey, that does suck for those affected in such a way' and while such may be the standard of the internet it remains disappointing to see the number of people unwilling to put even a minimal amount of thought into the matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Even codex updates have often resulted in units rising and falling in terms of power level in the "meta".

And people are not (nearly as) upset when that happens, which should be an immediate indicator that this circumstance is different. Which it is; a unit going from dominant to sub-par is still a unit that can be legally used within the rules.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Even codex updates have often resulted in units rising and falling in terms of power level in the "meta". I don't see how you can't call this a total codex revamp. lol I think you will find very few people who agree with you that they only tweaked a few things...

OK, this should be straightforward: A change in power level with a new codex is _not the same_ as invalidating parts of people's collections. One is normal, and happens on a regular basis. The other is rare, and fairly offensive.

As for not calling it a total revamp? I see no reason to. Plague marines with still be resilient and have pretty indifferent shooting (by current standards). Yes, they're more dangerous at close range, and that's a buff. But the nature of the unit isn't _different_. It just made life more difficult for some people who now need to rebuild models or units.

When orks went from generalists (BS and WS 3 with S3 and 1A) to focused close combat units with bad shooting? Tossing out bolters, lascannons and plasma guns for the current 'orky weapons?' _That_ was a total revamp. If someone wants to claim a 'total revamp,' then the changes need to match the scale of what happened to orks. Not just mock people for getting some of their collection invalidated, models they spent time, money and effort on.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Guys, this is a total codex revamp. When this happens, everything changes. The feel of deathguard is definitely still there. In fact, I think the deathguard codex has turned deathguard into a more powerful army while being fluffier to boot. Because wow, we get contagions now, and there is even a secondary objective to spread our disease!

We are still super resilient, just in a different way from before. We are still slow, but we have tons of other stuff. From what I have seen so far, we are definitely not the most shooty army out there though we do some have ranged goodies. But we pack a mean punch in close combat. You do NOT want to get up close to a deathguard army (Our debilating contagions should tell you that much already).

So when the codex transforms the entire army like that. You just relearn your army. Don't cry that you can't run 20 combat plague marines anymore. Or 10 combi plasma blightlords. Just learn the new stuff.

There is actually some lore basis behind having different weapon loadouts. I remember reading how chaos space marines in general just evolve mutations on their gear or outright take the best gear they find on the battlefield. So, the biggest and meanest get the best gear.

It always stuck me as weird that a plague marine or blightlord squad would be so .. "uniform". mutations are wildly different for a reason. And you don't get to find neatly exactly 10 combi plasma for every single blightlord in your squad. (And even if you did, there will be that blightlord who insists on wanting to use a blight launcher instead cos it has fused with his hand).

Anyway, I for one would rather embrace the new condex (there is no going back anyway) and learn to roll with that instead of crying that my old army doesn't work anymore.

It isn't crying when you have money tossed away, or time wasted for no good reason other than "because ". Plenty of other armies still have options not in the box and honestly many of these restraints are just dumb, especially when they aren't uniform. I get you just want to put on them rose colored shades and hail the coming of the new goodness but lets be honest, some of these changes are just not good. Why is 5 man with one blight launhcer and one plasma gun ok but two blights and two plasma bad ? It makes no sense other than punishing old squad set ups and/or making you have to go 10 men to not be annoyed with the set up.

Luckily I never made a CC group or I'd probably be annoyed there as well as honestly dual knives just feels cool but, who cares about time spent modding or money spent buying extras right ?

This annoyance isn't about good or bad it's about wasted time, effort and money for some.

So sure I'll stop being pissed about it when those who think its so amazing, buy me new models to alter my build and have them make sense and refund me my wasted time and effort. Otherwise I have every right to complain about the crap I think sucks in this book.

As well, I'm not saying the whole book is garbage I like a lot of it, but these few things I hate I really do dislike and feel they are a wrong path to go down.

Just watched a bunch of battle reports with new codex. Seriously if my TS get a codec half as good as this I will be crazy happy.

WTF people who plays this game thinking GW isn't gonna invalidate stuff?

Knights?

Iron hands Executioners?

Centurion's?

Wulfen?

Predators, vindicators, thudd guns, deredeo's, leviathan's the list goes on and on.

Get over it seriously if you haven't figured out its part of how the game is then what world have you been living in.

Wow. Crazy that people are comfortable with GW invalidating their time and money.

There’s a HUGE difference between making a powerful/underpowered codex through rules changes and completely making their fething army illegal to play because of unit options.

I hope your next army is completely invalidated because of a rules change, then we’ll see what kind of song you’ll sing.

COLD CASH wrote:
WTF people who plays this game thinking GW isn't gonna invalidate stuff?

Knights?

Iron hands Executioners?

Centurion's?

Wulfen?

Predators, vindicators, thudd guns, deredeo's, leviathan's the list goes on and on.

Get over it seriously if you haven't figured out its part of how the game is then what world have you been living in.

Knights are still fieldable.
Iron Hands are still a faction that can take Executioners.
Centurions are still in the Dex.
Wulfen didn't go anywhere.
None of those units except MAYBE the Thudd Guns are actually gone. I just can't find them on the MFM, so not sure on them.

Every single other unit you listed still exists and is 100% able to be fielded. It might not be GOOD anymore, but it's not illegal.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Wow. Crazy that people are comfortable with GW invalidating their time and money.

There’s a HUGE difference between making a powerful/underpowered codex through rules changes and completely making their fething army illegal to play because of unit options.

I hope your next army is completely invalidated because of a rules change, then we’ll see what kind of song you’ll sing.

I have been playing since second edition. I have had lots of builds and armies invalided. It is part of the evolution of the game. None of the death guard models are invalidated. You just can’t take them in the same way. It happens in this game ALL THE TIME. If you think a new codex will come out and you won’t have to adjust you are on the wrong hobby.

Great to see all these non DG players weighing in telling me I was enjoying my army wrong and I should be glad they butchered it. Here's hoping all your armies get butchered too, I'll be sure to rub in then when the time has come.

And I have been playing since 3rd. Does it make it right that they invalidate a 4 year old army?

I was around when the gak canned my favourite game, Warhammer fantasy. I was there at the beginning of 8th when they created the Ynnari and then promptly made my army illegal a year later. I’m tired of this. They can’t just invalidate things after 4 years and expect me not to be upset. And the fact that there are defenders of this kind of behaviour is mind blowing.

There is absolutely no defending this. This is absurd. I am going to write a scathing email to GW.

Well if you step back the argument "it has been done before so it isn't bad" is something you can chuckle at on a conceptual level. Take a bit of the edge off for a moment.

That this happened alongside so many good additions and changes makes it worse in a way; a sour ingredient that spoils the flavor of the whole dish.


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 xeen wrote:
It happens in this game ALL THE TIME.

How many instances of this happening have we had in 9th so far, where an existing unit people have has gone from valid to illegal?

Yeah, I hope GW reacts to this. Wouldn't be without precedent as they also reacted when people were upset that they couldn't use their World Eaters as troops in a World Eaters army.
Everyone who thinks this is about balance or strength of the Plague Marines unit simply misunderstood the complaint. I'm looking forward to use the Codex, but I'm not looking forward to explain my opponent why every single Plague Marine has a different loadout.

Heck, I think I be a whole lot more okay with it if Death Guard had Chosen (do Death Guard have Chosen?) as a place for all these models with specialized loadouts to still have a home poor as that be unless they were also a Troop option.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Ah, I guess you are right. You could just whine about it being nerfed and someone will tell you the proper rules. Good night, sir.

Is both completely insensitive to a legitimate concern and a demonstrated refusal to even make an effort to understand it. It is not hard to understand why people are upset, the concept and reasoning is not complex, it takes little thought to realize 'oh hey, that does suck for those affected in such a way' and while such may be the standard of the internet it remains disappointing to see the number of people unwilling to put even a minimal amount of thought into the matter.

The person I was responding to was complaining about a thing that objectively improved and got the rules wrong on everything else. I can't grasp why someone would put down dozens of posts on how horrible the codex is when they clearly haven't even done as much as read one of the longer reviews. To me that seems like some people simply want to be angry.

I fully understand why people are upset when their models is invalidated - it's just that as a long time ork player I'm used to losing droves of options, even whole units with every release, so to me this really feels like just a minor change in comparison.

They do not have chosen.

I will add the closest to this happening was some of the kill team changes with Deathwatch and SIA and what uses it. I didn't like that then and I don't like this now. However they didn't remove the options they just made them not as good.

I'd be happy if it was just less good but now for my same squad I used to run needs 3 more models and so costs 63 more points for no reason other than I want 2 plasmas and not a plasma and a blight launcher. I'm sure my 7 man 2 plasma units of plagues struck terror into everyones heart forever and my WAAC ways.

Jesus christ can we just talk about new strategies and ideas related to the new rules and not debate for 5 pages on whether GW is terrible or not. Yea they suck. Just let us enjoy this new codex and all the benefits it brings our armies.

At this point if you think the codex is a overall nerf please just leave the discussion. You are bringing nothing to the table for those of us who are wanting to discuss these new rules.

Like for real enough with the doom and gloom.

We are discussing the rules. We aren't going to be white knights over these unit entries.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Jesus christ can we just talk about new strategies and ideas related to the new rules and not debate for 5 pages on whether GW is terrible or not. Yea they suck. Just let us enjoy this new codex and all the benefits it brings our armies.

At this point if you think the codex is a overall nerf please just leave the discussion. You are bringing nothing to the table for those of us who are wanting to discuss these new rules.

Like for real enough with the doom and gloom.

If all you want is an echo chamber of joy, dreams are made of that. However, the rules just dropped, and this invalidation of units just struck down. I have heard no one say, even those who hate the unit entries this codex is a nerf, at least not in the lamenting of lost units. The new codex brings me first sorrow as it screws over my units set up. Will I get it to work ? Of course, but doesn't mean it won't piss me off every time I think about it.

We are discussing the new rules, just the negative/bad aspect of some of them.

Here's some suggestions of list ideas we could be discussing instead.

For melee deathguard, I think units like deathshroud, chaos spawn and possessed are good. These hit hard in close combat. So, just thinking out of the box, why not just modify some of your melee plague marines are call them possessed?

Seems like daemon engine deathguard is less of a thing now. But it might still be a viable list. Run Three PBCs, 3 fleshmowers, and 3 deathguard hellbrutes. Thats 9 hard to kill vehicles. Could be a thing. Cam throw in some Blight Haulers to increase the vehicle count even more.

Or try the list where you stuff as many terminators as you can into your army. Lord of contagion, Termi sorceror, 3 units of deathshroud, 2 units of Blightlords... and bam, you now have chaos version of a custodes list lol.

Someone somewhere is going to try out a list with 60 or more plague marines just to swarm the board with obsec,hard to kill bodies and see how that works out. Btw, 60 plague marines are moving 5 inches and rapid firing 24 inches on their bolters for 120 shots!

Fortunately I made green stuff molds of the combi add-ons and magnetised my Blightlords and my plague marines I will just have to have a reshuffle to make working squads.

I don't think this change bodes well for the hobby in general though. I understand GW limiting options due to the whole Charterhouse thing, but it feels like we're moving towards fixed loadouts for everything, I always thought this hobby was about creating something personal?

I am never a fan of reducing options, it cuts down on individuality, modelling opportunities, tactical choices.

I've recently been building a couple of boxes of regular chaos terminators and putting chainaxes on most. It was frustrating to find that with the new points that is now a sub optimal choice but I'm now even more concerned that when the new codex lands a squad will be forced to take 1 sword, 1 axe, 1 maul etc which if nothing else will make for a long winded melee phase...

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 xeen wrote:
It happens in this game ALL THE TIME.

How many instances of this happening have we had in 9th so far, where an existing unit people have has gone from valid to illegal?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/#warhammer-40000

I'd say plenty.

This doesn't make it right.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

COLD CASH wrote:
Lets just talk about all the goodies shall we???

The negatives are so few and inconsequential there is no point in talking about them.

To me it seems the LOC is a worse LOV.
LOV has better buffs and interaction, has a strong shooting option and still seems a beast in CC.

The interaction with DS/BL's seems amazing.

The LOC having a +3" contagion range isn't an ability to sneeze at but does it beat out the LOV for a slot? im not sure.

I've been wondering the same thing. In fairness there's very little difference between them. I don't think the LoV offers Blightlords very much (anything, really), as his aura only affects ranged plague weapons. Deathshroud would get more out of it, & the LoV's weapon matches their range. The LoC has some serious beatstick potential though with some of the relics on offer and the 3" boost to Droning coming out of deep strike has some serious potential imo.

Pity the LoV doesn't have the Daemon Engine ability GW said/his codex description said he'd get to differentiate him, but they're both great anyway so who cares

The idea of a LoC dropping with a termi sorcerer and having a 12 inch contagion range could be interesting - but you could still fail the power and the charge and be stuck twiddling thumbs.

At the very least the LoC isn't something you can just move away fr and ignore though. Contagions really change up how I see myself using deep striking units.

That said I still think the LoV is better simply due to being more reliable. A failed charge is much less of an issue for him.


On the modelling, it seems to me that they're actually trying to simplify things for new players. If BL combi plasma were the meta, new players would end up having to kit bash, buy bits etc. I suspect GW doesn't see that as their market and wants to discourage it. It sucks for people like me that now have to fiddle with squads and actually have an illegal demon prince, but someone new to DG will have a simpler time.
I'm glad I never got around to the full melta BL I was thinking of working on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On princes - I was already cooling on wings with 9th. I now actually think a foot prince is better value. Fly is a great keyword, but 35 points is a lot.

I think I'll try a foot prince with a sword and Spewer when I can play again. Thoughts?

If that's their approach why leave their constantly flogged gateway Uber faction completely flexible in equipment loadouts regardless of any kit component limitations? While also leaving characters options like bikes that require kitbashing in this "new player simplified" approach

I see what youre saying. It's speculation obviously, but Primaris don't support kit bashing and I think GW see that as the entry point for marines. Sisters are the same, they have loads of options on the surface but they are entirely limited by what you can build with the kit. A Cannoness being the core example.

First born are a different beast. GW doesn't seem keen on poking that hornets nest. (New model) DG players are newer and fewer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would also the frustration is totally valid and I hope GW walk it back, just that I can see how someone could think this was a positive change, especially for new players and non-hobbyists

I've found wings, even on a prince you are advancing up with the rest of your army, are very useful for jumping out and counter charging. That 12" move and being able to jump over stuff was really useful. Now I believe it's only 10" is that right?
35pts seems incredibly expensive to go from 8-10" nice

Abaddon303 wrote:
I've found wings, even on a prince you are advancing up with the rest of your army, are very useful for jumping out and counter charging. That 12" move and being able to jump over stuff was really useful. Now I believe it's only 10" is that right?
35pts seems incredibly expensive to go from 8-10" nice

Since he is not infantry he doesn't get inexorable advance, so having wings helps for ignoring terrain.

Having said that, since 9th came out I have been running DP without wings anyway, The smaller battlefield and objective style game has meant I have not needed them.
I think no wings may be the way to go now

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I hope your next army is completely invalidated because of a rules change, then we’ll see what kind of song you’ll sing.

Most likely the same song they are now. GW could literally spit in some of these peoples faces and they'd say it's the best shower they'd ever had.

shabadoit wrote:
I see what youre saying. It's speculation obviously, but Primaris don't support kit bashing and I think GW see that as the entry point for marines. Sisters are the same, they have loads of options on the surface but they are entirely limited by what you can build with the kit. A Cannoness being the core example.

First born are a different beast. GW doesn't seem keen on poking that hornets nest. (New model) DG players are newer and fewer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would also the frustration is totally valid and I hope GW walk it back, just that I can see how someone could think this was a positive change, especially for new players and non-hobbyists

That's not completely true.

Some of the options from the sister units cannot be made with the stuff from the box, you need to get bitz from other unit's boxes.

COLD CASH wrote:
WTF people who plays this game thinking GW isn't gonna invalidate stuff?

Knights?

Iron hands Executioners?

Centurion's?

Wulfen?

Predators, vindicators, thudd guns, deredeo's, leviathan's the list goes on and on.

Get over it seriously if you haven't figured out its part of how the game is then what world have you been living in.

So you are telling you can't field centurions now? And wolf player i faced cheatea when he fielded wojfen? Not talking about good/bad so don't say they are bad because then you didn't understand complain and need to go and re-read messages. With dictionary at hand if needed(say not native english speaker)

Ynnari armies they pushed for many years are completely unplayable right now, especially those mixing bits from different Eldar to get away (!) from fielding Craftword/Harlequins/Drukhari detachments, which was the main theme.

Similarly, even the narrative missions from things like Blood of the Phoenix which is explicitly about characters like Lelith, Jain Zar and the Midnight Sorrows Solitaire turning Ynnari are completely illegal even in narrative play.

Not totally related to the equipment drama.

But does anyone know/heard rumours about (sorry if its been mentioned) what GW are doing with the Plague Marine box?

Because it seems to be out of stock on GW's store - and various third parties have run dry. The assumption a month or so ago was that this was just in order to repack it for 9th - but surely you'd... get on with that?

I mean the sensible thing would be to retool it for 10 marines - but given the Combat Patrol box it seems safe to say that isn't happening. I guess maybe GW delayed this release because of this issue and it still hasn't been resolved*, but it seems weird.

*In the business we call this the Cyberpunk.

Spoletta wrote:

That's not completely true.

Some of the options from the sister units cannot be made with the stuff from the box, you need to get bitz from other unit's boxes.

Yeah I suppose so. I guess I'd argue you need models from other boxes rather than bits, but it's still true that they don't limit retributors to 2 MM per 5, which is all you get in the box.

So I take it back - sisters don't have these restrictions. GW going to GW I guess.

Just give some time until the codex is actually released. A lot of rightfully outraged people here will eventually calm down and play along, I believe.

Because no matter how they try to spin it, they're in very specific categories :

- They didn't play Death Guard before the change and just like to whine on whatever GW does : they don't matter at all since they never intended to play the codex and buy the miniatures, anyway. I don't consider their outrage "rightful", since they were never concerned by this codex's changes. I mean, even if they started Death Guard with the new codex, they will play and build their list with the new meta. Nothing is invalidated in their case, since they had no Death Guard army before.
- They played Death Guard before the change but actually have enough in their collection to make a new list that can be perfectly legal - it's just that their current lists are invalidated and they need to change them. Once the codex is out and they can play, most of them will do what everyone in their situation did before : grumble a bit, change their lists and eventually get used to the new meta.
- They played Death Guard before the change but their collection isn't wide enough since they only play a specific list with optimized configurations. They will be forced to buy new stuff indeed and won't be able to play their invalidated list as such...at least not at the same amount of points. Guess they can still make something out with a smaller army of 1000 or 500 points, especially with the new raised costs. Either they will give up in anger (minority, I think) or they'll finally sigh and buy more to make their favorite list legal...like a lot more of other players who invested in GW miniatures before.

Even in the last two categories, we can make further diffenciation for those who play a massive number of blightlord terminators with special combi-weapons and those who don't or do in a very small number (like 5 at most). Since the change is really bad only for blightlord terminators with special combi weapons (because they can't have the same configuration like before with just raising their squad number), those who played indeed something like 30 blightlord terminators with a majority of combi-meltas are truly right to be outraged by the change invalidating a whole part of their collection. Those who played 5 may also be right to grumble, but well...it means the change of, what, 4 miniatures at best (I suspect it's more about 2 or 3 depending of the other special weapons you could field, though, since the flail was very interesting and fielding just a unit to deep strike and melta without charging is a bit sad for the price of terminators before)?

The rest about special weapons limitations raised to 10 instead of 5, it just means people will simply reorganize their units. That's all, none of their models are invalidated.


About the possibility this change will be repeated in other future codexes...well, duh. I mean, my main is Sisters of Battle and I already had a glimpse with the canoness' very specific weapon options. Also, I play AoS where it's even badder than 40k on the matter of options. So I'm not surprised by it at all.

Will I have to change my current configuration for retributors or dominions in the future V9 Adepta Sororitas codex ? I'm expecting it, yes. Does that mean I will throw my "useless" special weapon sisters in the bin ? Hell no, I will just reconfigure my units, build another list with the new tools and move on. Like the majority of 40k players when editions change.

We're just in the grumbling phase. It never lasts long.

Ah yes, the ol' "play the waiting game" chestnut...

One does not need to eat dog gak to know it will taste bad.

Cyberpunk 2077 will be good if we just WaiT aNd SeE!

 Grimtuff wrote:
Ah yes, the ol' "play the waiting game" chestnut...

Even though, in our current society, it's actually better to wait in more than one situation.

One does not need to eat dog gak to know it will taste bad.

So far, you're refusing to eat because of how it looks in your head rather than what's it actually tasting in your mouth.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Cyberpunk 2077 will be good if we just WaiT aNd SeE!

The Death Guard's codex isn't Cyberpunk 2077, though. False equivalencies are always a tool of the weaks.

Sarouan wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Ah yes, the ol' "play the waiting game" chestnut...

Even though, in our current society, it's actually better to wait in more than one situation.

Sarouan wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

One does not need to eat dog gak to know it will taste bad.

So far, you're refusing to eat because of how it looks in your head rather than what's it actually tasting in your mouth.

I.... i don't think you understood that analogy.

Tyel wrote:
Not totally related to the equipment drama.

But does anyone know/heard rumours about (sorry if its been mentioned) what GW are doing with the Plague Marine box?

Because it seems to be out of stock on GW's store - and various third parties have run dry. The assumption a month or so ago was that this was just in order to repack it for 9th - but surely you'd... get on with that?

I mean the sensible thing would be to retool it for 10 marines - but given the Combat Patrol box it seems safe to say that isn't happening. I guess maybe GW delayed this release because of this issue and it still hasn't been resolved*, but it seems weird.

*In the business we call this the Cyberpunk.

That would be the sensible thing to do but if they added the other remaining 3 Plague marines they would also had to add the extra special weapons that are on the DEX new load outs for 10 man units. We are talking a huge 5or 6 sprue box or totally new sprues here. I think we are stuck to 7 man boxes.
I was surprised that the 3 man easy to build Plague marines box is no more, specially since those models are displayed on the Plague marines page in new codex.

You really have to get 2 boxes of 7 to be able to have and equip a 10 man unit with the load outs that you want. So your looking at £60 for 1 core full unit of 10 PM's.

I looked at eBay and the Dark imperium Nurgle PM's are quite expensive now and in therms of load out you would only have 1 plasma?... So yeah at those silly prices better off with current multipart box.
Earlier on this thread someone posted about Conquest magazines so keep an eye on that too.

I know hard one to swallow, specially if you want 2 core units.

 Grimtuff wrote:


I.... i don't think you understood that analogy.

No, I perfectly do. The book isn't even out yet and you can't have tested all the possibilites with the new book already. You may have an idea of how it will play in your head, but you can't be sure unless you actually tried it.

To take your analogy, you're like a child refusing to eat what their parents are trying to feed him, purely because you decided in your mind it was dog gak so and not how it actually really taste.

You do what you want, in the end ! But I'm expecting the majority of Death Guard players not sharing your very narrow point of view about the changes, in the end.

Sarouan wrote:
Just give some time until the codex is actually released. A lot of rightfully outraged people here will eventually calm down and play along, I believe.

Because no matter how they try to spin it, they're in very specific categories :


We're just in the grumbling phase. It never lasts long.

Right. Thank you for the patronising exercise of categorising people, totally off topic.

As someone who has played all kinds of Aeldari for decades I am pretty much used to changes and losing loadouts. It sucks, but I have learned to live with it. Only thing I would want GW to do is to make the more limited offerings(like the current Autarch) much more useful and equipment appropriate for their role rather than the usual rule of cool they want to go for and tends to be the oddman out in an army. Thankfully I don't have that problem with Death Guard although I will now have to think differently how I equip the PM and Blightlords.

Sarouan wrote:
No, I perfectly do. The book isn't even out yet and you can't have tested all the possibilites with the new book already. You may have an idea of how it will play in your head, but you can't be sure unless you actually tried it.

You have failed to comprehend the nature of the complaint.

 NAVARRO wrote:

Right. Thank you for the patronising exercise of categorising people, totally off topic.

Still the truth, and you know it.

Sarouan wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

Right. Thank you for the patronising exercise of categorising people, totally off topic.

Still the truth, and you know it.

Except it's not. Just because you don't understand the very nature of what people are complaining about (hint: It's not entirely about DG...) does not make your belittling "assessments" true.

Sarouan wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

Right. Thank you for the patronising exercise of categorising people, totally off topic.

Still the truth, and you know it.

Your self righteous tone is not at all helpful, you seem to think that people are purely complaining because they want to min/max their squads. You're missing the point here.

If this is a sign of things to come, then a hobby that many people are drawn to because of the creativity and individuality you can put into your armies', gearing certain squads for different tasks etc. That appears to all be going.

It's a legitimate complaint people have about the Primaris releases with their very limited loadout options. Part of the fun of this game is list building.

At the end of the day it's a dice game based on random numbers. The interactivity comes from the sense of being able to influence chance with your choices, even if that is the difference between a +1s -3 power sword or a +2s -2 power axe.

People like to agonise over those minor choices, it's why we're here and it's strange to belittle people for where they find enjoyment in the hobby...

Abaddon303 wrote:

Your self righteous tone is not at all helpful, you seem to think that people are purely complaining because they want to min/max their squads. You're missing the point here.

If this is a sign of things to come, then a hobby that many people are drawn to because of the creativity and individuality you can put into your armies', gearing certain squads for different tasks etc. That appears to all be going.

It's a legitimate complaint people have about the Primaris releases with their very limited loadout options. Part of the fun of this game is list building.

At the end of the day it's a dice game based on random numbers. The interactivity comes from the sense of being able to influence chance with your choices, even if that is the difference between a +1s -3 power sword or a +2s -2 power axe.

People like to agonise over those minor choices, it's why we're here and it's strange to belittle people for where they find enjoyment in the hobby...

I'm not self-righteous. I'm just saying it's no different than what GW made countless times before with each edition change : they invalidated lists that were working good in the former meta, forcing players to find new ones. All the time.

So your point is the same that was brought by others - rightful or not, players of that changed army or not - again and again and again. Meanwhile, the same people often whine and moan about how imbalanced the current meta is and GW is not doing anything to fix it, blablabla.

The thing is, if GW change the edition, it will eventually change the list building as well. Because that's the point of changing editions : renewing the meta and making it new for players. Otherwise, why bother buying the new rules if it's to play exactly the same thing than before ?

And if you say "but GW doesn't need to change !"...that's a fallacy. Because you know they have to, if they want to keep selling new books. They can't just add more armies or units to a bloated game already, that's the fate of WFB. At one point, if it's too bloated, it just breaks. So you have to renew things once in a while.

See the other companies like Mantic Games : even them, they have to change editions and change the rules after a while to keep selling books to their veteran community. It's not because the previous rules were junk or bad, it's because they need to renew the meta to boost the sales. If they can fix some things that weren't working as they intended meanwhile, it's even better !

You may not agree with it, and that's fine. But that's how things work in games that keep going on very long term. And it's not by moaning on this board you will change it.

Sarouan wrote:


I'm not self-righteous. I'm just saying it's no different than what GW made countless times before with each edition change : they invalidated lists that were working good in the former meta, forcing players to find new ones. All the time.

The point ------------->


Your head.



Don't worry, you'll get it eventually. Or do we need to bend down and patronisingly explain it to you?

 Grimtuff wrote:

The point ------------->


Your head.



Don't worry, you'll get it eventually. Or do we need to bend down and patronisingly explain it to you?

Because you don't want to understand than matching weapon options to the boxes GW sells is also part of the new meta and list building. It's exactly the same purpose, in the end.

But you already decided in your head I didn't understand, so no matter what I say, you won't aknowledge it. It's fine.

There's literally no way the changes to equipment options so that they're "on-sprue only" are driven by the meta. They're just not.

Billicus wrote:
There's literally no way the changes to equipment options so that they're "on-sprue only" are driven by the meta. They're just not.

Exactly. This guy's treating it like it's just the same as when plasma becomes better than melta, or flamers are no longer viable etc.

He doesn't seem to understand the consequences of where this is going. I don't want to build a unit of five models that are identical to the box art. At what point do they stop selling these models in kit form?

Sarouan wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

The point ------------->


Your head.



Don't worry, you'll get it eventually. Or do we need to bend down and patronisingly explain it to you?

Because you don't want to understand than matching weapon options to the boxes GW sells is also part of the new meta and list building. It's exactly the same purpose, in the end.

But you already decided in your head I didn't understand, so no matter what I say, you won't aknowledge it. It's fine.

So why doesn't the loyalist SM codex have the same restrictions? Yeah, because you're talking out your bum.

Sarouan wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:


I.... i don't think you understood that analogy.

No, I perfectly do. The book isn't even out yet and you can't have tested all the possibilites with the new book already. You may have an idea of how it will play in your head, but you can't be sure unless you actually tried it.

To take your analogy, you're like a child refusing to eat what their parents are trying to feed him, purely because you decided in your mind it was dog gak so and not how it actually really taste.

You do what you want, in the end ! But I'm expecting the majority of Death Guard players not sharing your very narrow point of view about the changes, in the end.

If you think issue is about power level then you should consider going to school to refresh english.

Hint: it's not is　something too good/too bad in point efficiency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarouan wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

The point ------------->


Your head.



Don't worry, you'll get it eventually. Or do we need to bend down and patronisingly explain it to you?

Because you don't want to understand than matching weapon options to the boxes GW sells is also part of the new meta and list building. It's exactly the same purpose, in the end.

But you already decided in your head I didn't understand, so no matter what I say, you won't aknowledge it. It's fine.

No it isn't. It's part of dg only for arbitary reason.

You can't say it's part of common style when　it's　so far just dg. Nor is it anything to do with　balance nor　is it good and for players sake the plague better not　spread out. Luckily only dg so far is screwed by this so far.

Billicus wrote:
There's literally no way the changes to equipment options so that they're "on-sprue only" are driven by the meta. They're just not.

I agree, specially because these sprues were done before this edition. This is specially ridiculous with the Codex having a normal 10 man unit but the sprues themselves only have 7.

The way I see it its an attempt of streamlining things like they have on the Primaris boxes with only one load out, but when looking at the DG box sets its really not applicable. I think GW themselves probably seen that this philosophy shift is not applicable to kits done prior to this idea, but lets face it redoing these "not so old" sprues into something else is a huge money investment... heck they did not even changed the DI sprues for the Poxwalkers with half a marine in it have they? A clear sign that some new ideas or philosophies may be ok on paper but fall short once implemented.

Ok so what's the solution for this? A good way to go about it since PMs and termis are the worse offenders is either make them the exceptions and bespoke and only update load outs when you actually update the Sprues ...or in the case of PM's add the easy build into the box.

Its easier to not do anything though and carry on <removed> with the new load outs.

I get the feeling that idea is to simplify with power replacing the points systems and inbox sprues dictating load out. So you pick a box, equip the way you want with a predetermined power and thats it.

heck they did not even changed the DI sprues for the Poxwalkers with half a marine in it have they?

Correct. Its actually a little hilarious to have marine legs and half a torso, a left arm and a backpack in an unrelated box. Except the backpack, they won't even match up well to the actual plague marine kit.

What options does the Chaos Lord have? (Since there is no actual model...)

Is Chain axe still a choice?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
What options does the Chaos Lord have? (Since there is no actual model...)

Is Chain axe still a choice?

There is one :

https://www.games-workshop.com/fr-BE/Chaos-Space-Marine-Chaos-Lord-2019

And the options in the Death Guard codex match exactly what you can build from the sprue : combi-boltgun, combi-melta, power axe, power fist, chain fist, lightning claw (in pairs or alone).

Same with the sorcerer in terminator armor, that comes from the same box actually.

So...yeah. Same battle than for the blightlord terminators, in the end.


EDIT : ah sorry I thought you were talking about the one in terminator armour, not the "classic" one in power armour. Yes, chainaxe is still an option for him.

That's not a Death Guard Chaos Lord though, there is no model for the DG Lord (hence the problem this caused in the previous codex with NMNR).

There's no model, yet he has a bunch of options. Who'da thunk it? Almost as if GW talk out of both sides of their mouths...

If you don't care that GW messes with peoples options, then you don't need to have an opinion on it. End of story.

People have a legitimate gripe here. And nothing anyone to the contrary is saying makes any sense at all.

It's like watching somebody get kicked in the teeth and then telling them they deserved it because they didn't see it coming.

Jesus.H Christ....glad i play 7th solo and being done with GW.

Voss wrote:

heck they did not even changed the DI sprues for the Poxwalkers with half a marine in it have they?

Correct. Its actually a little hilarious to have marine legs and half a torso, a left arm and a backpack in an unrelated box. Except the backpack, they won't even match up well to the actual plague marine kit.

Is the half-marine in the “Chosen of Mortarion” set the other half to the Poxwalkers half-marine?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
If you don't care that GW messes with peoples options, then you don't need to have an opinion on it. End of story.

I do care. It's just that you moaning about this here won't change anything at all, GW will still do it with the other codexes and you will still keep playing your army. Maybe grumbling a bit at first.

The other option, of course, is to stop and stay at previous editions with your friends (perfectly possible) or stop GW games entirely and go elsewhere, hoping the other game you will be playing won't have the same fate or worse.


We'll see after a month if we're still remembering the outrage or if we will be moving on. My bet is on the second option, personnally.

Sarouan wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
If you don't care that GW messes with peoples options, then you don't need to have an opinion on it. End of story.

I do care. It's just that you moaning about this here won't change anything at all

Except it will.

6th ed WHFB Dark Elves, 2.0 Dark Eldar codex in 3rd, Bezerkers and NMs being FAQed to be allowed as troops in their respective armies in 8th, literally the entire current SOB range, consumers getting (partial) refunds on the plastic CSM box, after it was deemed unfair that they paid the same price for 8 minis as loyalists paid for 10 (oh irony, given the current PM box, but still...)The list goes on.

If enough people kick up enough of a fuss, GW will change it.

I am a bit irritated why so few people complain about the loss of daemons.

This is not at all about "power level", it is about GW cutting a sizable portion of options from the army. Of course one can take the CD codex for an extra detachment - meaning you have to get another book and some more models compared to before. Of course that is what GW wants. I still consider it asinine. Heavens beware a cult legion has easier access to its patrons warp minions than anybody else.

Looking forward to what Thousand Sonst will "get".

Boys, yes there is a legitimate gripe here about loadouts. I love to whale on GWs terrible choices as much as the next guy.

But to have like 4-5 pages of just debating the validation of that single critique? Especially when the full rules were spoiled only 1-2 pages before that? Like yes that's terrible. Most of us get it and sympathize. Now let's move on. Honestly at this point nothing is even being added to the conversation about it.

As for rules, I'm excited to try the new Damon princes. They feel a little different, but I'm going with they are better than before. Sad I just modeled mine with 2 claws but that's just the way it goes. Sword looking really strong.
Bloat drones as well feel back. Might have to convert some flesh mowers as well... Those looking good.

 Nostromodamus wrote:

Voss wrote:

heck they did not even changed the DI sprues for the Poxwalkers with half a marine in it have they?

Correct. Its actually a little hilarious to have marine legs and half a torso, a left arm and a backpack in an unrelated box. Except the backpack, they won't even match up well to the actual plague marine kit.

Is the half-marine in the “Chosen of Mortarion” set the other half to the Poxwalkers half-marine?

It is, more-or-less (mine has a different head, but the chest plate and bolter are correct. But I'd look at people funny if they paid $60 for three and half marines.

 Darnok wrote:
I am a bit irritated why so few people complain about the loss of daemons.

This is not at all about "power level", it is about GW cutting a sizable portion of options from the army. Of course one can take the CD codex for an extra detachment - meaning you have to get another book and some more models compared to before. Of course that is what GW wants. I still consider it asinine. Heavens beware a cult legion has easier access to its patrons warp minions than anybody else.

Looking forward to what Thousand Sonst will "get".

It still will be more than what EC and WE do...

But to have like 4-5 pages of just debating the validation of that single critique? Especially when the full rules were spoiled only 1-2 pages before that? Like yes that's terrible. Most of us get it and sympathize. Now let's move on. Honestly at this point nothing is even being added to the conversation about it.

Unfortunately for people like me, this is my hill to die on. I will not be playing my army or purchasing any further DG related product until this decision is reversed. If I can't have it the way I want it, I don't want it at all.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

But to have like 4-5 pages of just debating the validation of that single critique? Especially when the full rules were spoiled only 1-2 pages before that? Like yes that's terrible. Most of us get it and sympathize. Now let's move on. Honestly at this point nothing is even being added to the conversation about it.

Unfortunately for people like me, this is my hill to die on. I will not be playing my army or purchasing any further DG related product until this decision is reversed. If I can't have it the way I want it, I don't want it at all.

Honestly debating whether to get a refund on my codex order or not. Only found all this out after buying it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

But to have like 4-5 pages of just debating the validation of that single critique? Especially when the full rules were spoiled only 1-2 pages before that? Like yes that's terrible. Most of us get it and sympathize. Now let's move on. Honestly at this point nothing is even being added to the conversation about it.

Unfortunately for people like me, this is my hill to die on. I will not be playing my army or purchasing any further DG related product until this decision is reversed. If I can't have it the way I want it, I don't want it at all.

Honestly debating whether to get a refund on my codex order or not. Only found all this out after buying it.

You can always reorder it a different time. A refund now sends a message to them.

So overall this codex seems to be a buff.

My big points:

It seems that GW has decided to make our shooting less powerful (by limiting range weapons in unit) and instead making us a melee army. In 8th we were mid range firepower masters, but now everything really revolves around getting very close to include combat for the most part.

I think there is an error with the jealousy rule and demon princes were not meant to have the “Lord” keyword. Otherwise the demon prince jealousy rule is irrelevant since you have 2 in a detachment because of the “Lord” keyword anyways. This makes the rule redundant. If it isn’t an error this is my #1 gripe that they have FORCED you to buy a caster in a battalion. Regardless I hate these silly restrictions!

The random limitations across the board are annoying, but I’ll get over them. I feel bad for the people who bought lots of bits to make things work only to have them invalidated. However, I feel this was done intentionally to drive more sales. Otherwise, since DG are an elite army and ost people own everything, they would buy much. Almost EVERY DG list is going to look almost the same with mall variance due to the restrictions the exact opposite of most other new codexes.

Anyone have pictures of the new data sheets?

 Darnok wrote:
I am a bit irritated why so few people complain about the loss of daemons.

This is not at all about "power level", it is about GW cutting a sizable portion of options from the army. Of course one can take the CD codex for an extra detachment - meaning you have to get another book and some more models compared to before. Of course that is what GW wants. I still consider it asinine. Heavens beware a cult legion has easier access to its patrons warp minions than anybody else.

Well, the complaints about daemons were made at the start of 8th already when they appeared in the codex without any reason but to summon them. Including them in your army made you lose your DG rules even though they were units from your own codex. So everybody simply allied a Daemon detachment and moved on and I guess people who did that will continue to do so (I know I will or play Daemons on their own because they'll get their own "contagion- rule").
However that debate has also been made prior to the codex leaks, especially since fluffwize it seems... counterintuitive that DG would lose its "contagions" when allied to Nurgle Daemons... would have been nice to see contagions restricted to a nurgle army but for consistency's sake they did it like for SM doctrines.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
BLike yes that's terrible. Most of us get it and sympathize. Now let's move on. Honestly at this point nothing is even being added to the conversation about it.

'Stop talking about the bad thing and drink the CoolAid' is exactly how we came to be in the situation(s) we're in now with units/armies getting screwed, balance being terrible, and books being filled with typos (etc.).

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
BLike yes that's terrible. Most of us get it and sympathize. Now let's move on. Honestly at this point nothing is even being added to the conversation about it.

'Stop talking about the bad thing and drink the CoolAid' is exactly how we came to be in the situation(s) we're in now with units/armies getting screwed, balance being terrible, and books being filled with typos (etc.).

That is an unfair response; ninja recognized that it sucks, agreed with the legitimacy of the complaint, and made an honest request for the discussion to move on from one specific topic. There was no request to avoid discussing flaws, or sentiment that flaws don't exist. Largely the opposite of what you are portraying it as. Treating a polite post with such hostility not only undermines your own legitimacy but makes it seem like those with legitimate complaints on the matter are simply black knights.

So, I have access to the Codex if anyone has any lingering questions they haven't already gotten answered.

 puma713 wrote:
So, I have access to the Codex if anyone has any lingering questions they haven't already gotten answered.

Did the Daemon Engines get CORE?

 puma713 wrote:
So, I have access to the Codex if anyone has any lingering questions they haven't already gotten answered.

How many custom crusade plague options are there?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Did the Daemon Engines get CORE?

No. Plague Marines, Possessed, Blightlord Terminators, Deathshroud Terminators and Helbrutes have it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
So, I have access to the Codex if anyone has any lingering questions they haven't already gotten answered.

Did the Daemon Engines get CORE?

no and they didn’t get the inexorable advance rule due to the bubonic astartes key word. I hate when they do things like this. It just make it so many things get confused. I mean how many people are going to get that wrong in games or even notice that everything in the army except demon engines, poxwalkers, and cultists get it?

I am really hoping the FAQ fixes it so you can have a “Lord” and a Demon Prince. I am frustrated feeling I must take the caster when I don’t like the model at all.

 BleachHawk wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Did the Daemon Engines get CORE?

No. Plague Marines, Possessed, Blightlord Terminators, Deathshroud Terminators and Helbrutes have it.

Correct.

 puma713 wrote:
So, I have access to the Codex if anyone has any lingering questions they haven't already gotten answered.

If you could post the last page of stratgems it would be helpful. Only 3/4 pages were posted. Also, a Deathshroud, Lord of Contagian, psychic powers pages would be very very helpful.

Are any of the Demon princes weapons plague weapons? I really wish I knew the key word requirements for the psychic powers.

What are the subfaction abilities and warlord traits?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
So, I have access to the Codex if anyone has any lingering questions they haven't already gotten answered.

How many custom crusade plague options are there?

Huh, looks like I'm missing those sheets. Sorry man. I have every datasheet and all the rules except Crusade rules.

 JNAProductions wrote:
What are the subfaction abilities and warlord traits?

Here you go: https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2020/12/13/death-guard-9th-edition-codex-leak-compilation/

broxus wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
So, I have access to the Codex if anyone has any lingering questions they haven't already gotten answered.

If you could post the last page of stratgems it would be helpful. Only 3/4 pages were posted. Also, a Deathshroud, Lord of Contagian, psychic powers pages would be very very helpful.

Are any of the Demon princes weapons plague weapons? I really wish I knew the key word requirements for the psychic powers.

 puma713 wrote:
So, I have access to the Codex if anyone has any lingering questions they haven't already gotten answered.

Do Possessed really only have 2 wounds?

 puma713 wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Did the Daemon Engines get CORE?

No. Plague Marines, Possessed, Blightlord Terminators, Deathshroud Terminators and Helbrutes have it.

Correct.

Huh. So I guess the Lord of Virtulence really only has use with Deathshroud then. Thanks for the information, and thanks GW for creating a unit whose fluff makes mention of Daemon Engines and then do nothing with them.

 porkuslime wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
So, I have access to the Codex if anyone has any lingering questions they haven't already gotten answered.

Do Possessed really only have 2 wounds?

Yes, unfortunately.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Did the Daemon Engines get CORE?

No. Plague Marines, Possessed, Blightlord Terminators, Deathshroud Terminators and Helbrutes have it.

Correct.

Huh. So I guess the Lord of Virtulence really only has use with Deathshroud then. Thanks for the information, and thanks GW for creating a unit whose fluff makes mention of Daemon Engines and then do nothing with them.

Master of Destruction also synchs up with the Virulent Rounds stratagem if you have a unit armed with Bolt weapons. Not something to build a list around, but certainly a nice bonus for when you want to make a unit's Bolters shots really count.

broxus wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
So, I have access to the Codex if anyone has any lingering questions they haven't already gotten answered.

If you could post the last page of stratgems it would be helpful. Only 3/4 pages were posted. Also, a Deathshroud, Lord of Contagian, psychic powers pages would be very very helpful.

Are any of the Demon princes weapons plague weapons? I really wish I knew the key word requirements for the psychic powers.

 puma713 wrote:

broxus wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
So, I have access to the Codex if anyone has any lingering questions they haven't already gotten answered.

If you could post the last page of stratgems it would be helpful. Only 3/4 pages were posted. Also, a Deathshroud, Lord of Contagian, psychic powers pages would be very very helpful.

Are any of the Demon princes weapons plague weapons? I really wish I knew the key word requirements for the psychic powers.

Sir, You are a legend. ANy chance we could get more info on the Lord of Contagians? I’m trying to see their weapon profiles and also the psychic powers to see which keyword interactions there are. WIsh i had my book =(. Hopefully it arrives soon.