AngryAngel80 wrote:
Then like I said, why not just limit the amount of demons you can take or the kinds so it isn't just cherry picking all the best in slot units ? Why does it have to be a zero sum game when it makes perfectly good sense and reason for DG to fight with nurgle demons ?

That's just summoning with extra steps?

Saying no, I want just and only DG, that is fine and it's your choice but for those who do in fact like cake and eating it as well, we may like a little demon flavor on that cake without needing to summon them or suffer the over the top negatives which we all know were in place for some very real problem lists " cough guard and knights..cough..ad mech knights..cough imperial soup, command point farming..cough."

The suffering in just in your head. For some reason nurgle faction players (I dislike calling a traditional army like this "soup") see a buff to the other side as a nerf to them, despite not having lost anything.

Mono DG is getting a buff. DG+Daemons is *not* losing anything at all.

@Jidmah honesty I know this all your opinion, but I think the vast majority of people are ok with select Nurgle daemons being in the DG codex. DG are THE Nurgle faction in 40K and it only makes sense they are able to fight together since in the lore they fight together. They should be able to keep thier contagious of Nurgle ability when they do (note the name). Nurgle daemons should be included in the codex and considered a part of the DG.

The DG have a very small unit election when compared to SM and CSM that this only makes sense. Your argument is like saying SMs shouldn’t get their buffs if they take Primaris and non-Primaris in the same army. It makes more sense for the DG to fight with Nurgle daemons than it does for nurglings to be in a Khorne daemons list.

 Jidmah wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Then like I said, why not just limit the amount of demons you can take or the kinds so it isn't just cherry picking all the best in slot units ? Why does it have to be a zero sum game when it makes perfectly good sense and reason for DG to fight with nurgle demons ?

That's just summoning with extra steps?

Saying no, I want just and only DG, that is fine and it's your choice but for those who do in fact like cake and eating it as well, we may like a little demon flavor on that cake without needing to summon them or suffer the over the top negatives which we all know were in place for some very real problem lists " cough guard and knights..cough..ad mech knights..cough imperial soup, command point farming..cough."

The suffering in just in your head. For some reason nurgle faction players (I dislike calling a traditional army like this "soup") see a buff to the other side as a nerf to them, despite not having lost anything.

Mono DG is getting a buff. DG+Daemons is *not* losing anything at all.

Ah, I see the disconnect, and its an easy one to make since this hasn't been true for quite a while. But some people see 'Followers of Nurgle' as the faction, not Death Guard or Daemons or whatever. This goes back to the original list, and to various iterations of chaos space marines before the daemons were torn out and thrown in a random bin to rattle around by themselves.
That recent background novels happily put DG and daemons fighting together without issue (Dark Imperium and Plague War), its just insult to injury.

So yes, people do see penalties for trying to recreate their original armies as 'losing something.'

It may not bother you, but you need to grasp that it does bother other people.

DG plus Nurgle Daemons is not losing anything at all.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. With the core keyword and bubonic Astartes it's quite possible they introduce something like an "infernal" keyword or something similar when the Daemons Codex comes around, so that all auras and buffs don't work cross Codex anymore.

Voss wrote:
So yes, people do see penalties for trying to recreate their original armies as 'losing something.'

It may not bother you, but you need to grasp that it does bother other people.

The thing I disagree on is that contagions of nurgle being a penalty. It's not. It's a new thing that buffs mono DG armies.

It's a mechanic that allows both types of armies to exist, and if the 'Followers of Nurgle' players want in on that one thing mono DG have over them it will just make the army weak and reliant on a second codex once again.

It might be because I used to be a xenos player until 8th, but I do like playing armies out of just one book.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

DG plus Nurgle Daemons is not losing anything at all.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. With the core keyword and bubonic Astartes it's quite possible they introduce something like an "infernal" keyword or something similar when the Daemons Codex comes around, so that all auras and buffs don't work cross Codex anymore.

Possible. But that's a discussion for when the daemons codex is supposed to be released.

From the things we know so far, the one and only real loss is that plague spitters no longer benefit from strength auras.

 Jidmah wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
DG souping with DoN is not the same as them souping with literally another codex, and should not be treated as such. Happy now? I'm not sure what you see in that hill but you seem very determined to die on it.

It is not, and as you have not brought as single argument besides "I say so" while also failing to respond to single one of my arguments, the only conclusion left to draw is that you are wrong on this.
There simply is no good reason why DG+daemons should inherently be more powerful than an army made of just Death Guard.

I would respond to more of your arguments if more of them were valid, instead the only consistent theme is 'screw players running mixed Nurgle and logic be dammed.'

I notice a change in your stance--suddenly it is about DG+daemons being more powerful than mono-DG. But why? Mono-DG have the same 'synergy' you spoke of cross-Nurgle having only more so. It must then be because DoN offer a wider unit choice and tactical options unique to them. Which is an entirely valid point, and one also seen in every other chaos faction offering strengths that mono-DG do not have. So I ask you this, again;

Why should souping DG and DoN be held at the same level as souping DG and Thousand Sons? Or World Eaters? Or anything else? If the idea is that players should benefit from limiting themselves to DG, then surely that also applies to limiting themselves to Nurgle. DoN may have more synergy with DG, but DG have even more synergy with other DG so that argument is not valid.

 Jidmah wrote:

Voss wrote:
So yes, people do see penalties for trying to recreate their original armies as 'losing something.'

It may not bother you, but you need to grasp that it does bother other people.

The thing I disagree on is that contagions of nurgle being a penalty. It's not. It's a new thing that buffs mono DG armies.

It's a mechanic that allows both types of armies to exist, and if the 'Followers of Nurgle' players want in on that one thing mono DG have over them it will just make the army weak and reliant on a second codex once again.

It might be because I used to be a xenos player until 8th, but I do like playing armies out of just one book.

Thats... fine? Play however you like.
But you're going to keep having this argument with people as long as you keep telling them your likes are right, they're wrong and the disadvantages are just in their heads.

Plus there is a certain amount of dishonesty in trying to claim that the army-wide benefits aren't the standard. We all know armies without the extra are at a disadvantage; doctrine marines have been dominating for some time and there is little disagreement as to the biggest reason why.

 Jidmah wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Then like I said, why not just limit the amount of demons you can take or the kinds so it isn't just cherry picking all the best in slot units ? Why does it have to be a zero sum game when it makes perfectly good sense and reason for DG to fight with nurgle demons ?

That's just summoning with extra steps?

Saying no, I want just and only DG, that is fine and it's your choice but for those who do in fact like cake and eating it as well, we may like a little demon flavor on that cake without needing to summon them or suffer the over the top negatives which we all know were in place for some very real problem lists " cough guard and knights..cough..ad mech knights..cough imperial soup, command point farming..cough."

The suffering in just in your head. For some reason nurgle faction players (I dislike calling a traditional army like this "soup") see a buff to the other side as a nerf to them, despite not having lost anything.

Mono DG is getting a buff. DG+Daemons is *not* losing anything at all.

I would go so far as to say DG allowing demons more easily wouldn't be a nerf to mono DG at all, simply a boon to those who choose combined arms of marines and demons from the same god. I get you have things against soup lists, and for many of them they can be pretty lame to deal with but not all of them are the problem here. In GWs ham fisted way they always apply the same fits all sizes fix to issues but it doesn't just take out the problems it also strikes down on the combinations that were fluffy and none abusive.

I'd add as well if demons aren't even in the codex, will make summoning them if that will even still be allowable a pain in the butt as well, so yeah I'd rather they have an option to be included without throwing off the DG specific stuff. Mono DG doesn't need a buff over DG plus demons if the DG forces are actually good and viable on their own. Give people viable options and not just, well take it if you want to give up a lot for the sake of the good feels.

I mean is anyone even suggesting a smattering of nurgle demons would make this codex over the top, omg amazing ? I highly doubt that to be the case so what is the issue aside from " I just don't like allies " ? I mean I get, I don't field allies often but DG with nurgle demons are just such a natural fit that it's intense they don't have easier access to work together without messing with their respective army wide rules.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
DoN may have more synergy with DG, but DG have even more synergy with other DG so that argument is not valid.

Yes, you keep repeating this, but competitive data clearly proves you wrong. There have been plenty of death guard lists placing in the top 4 tournaments over the course of the last three years, but every single one was running some amount of daemons. Heck, even the ones that come closest to being a pure army still require Epidemius to work. In the tactics thread most advice for DG players trying to improve boiled down to buying parts of another army.

If you really do care, I can compile a list of top DG lists of the last 1-2 years, but I'm reluctant to put in the effort if the response is just "but I say" or "competitive doesn't matter", as it often is when people are confronted with hard facts.

Daemons or not, here's hoping the hard lockdown we're now under in the UK doesn't affect the release date.

Been doing some mathhammer on which is better between axes and swords on Blightlord Terminators. With the new contagion rule bringing marines down to T3 i think it's commonly perceived that the S6 of the axe is better due to wounding on 2s. Against marines they actually perform identically and the sword is actually superior against most of the targets you would expect to go up against.
Surprisingly, the only situations that axes are significantly better is really space marine HQs and Ork Boyz

 Jidmah wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
DoN may have more synergy with DG, but DG have even more synergy with other DG so that argument is not valid.

Yes, you keep repeating this, but competitive data clearly proves you wrong. There have been plenty of death guard lists placing in the top 4 tournaments over the course of the last three years, but every single one was running some amount of daemons. Heck, even the ones that come closest to being a pure army still require Epidemius to work. In the tactics thread most advice for DG players trying to improve boiled down to buying parts of another army.

If you really do care, I can compile a list of top DG lists of the last 1-2 years, but I'm reluctant to put in the effort if the response is just "but I say" or "competitive doesn't matter", as it often is when people are confronted with hard facts.

Took one piece out of context and ignored the rest, including a direct question. What was the phrase? "The only conclusion left to draw is you are wrong on this."

Voss wrote:
But you're going to keep having this argument with people as long as you keep telling them your likes are right, they're wrong and the disadvantages are just in their heads.

I literally put a list of advantages daemons provide DG with in a post with only for it to be removed from quotes and being ignored.
Skimming the thread, the 'Followers of Nurgle' players have provided the following arguments:
- "It's not fluffy" Which is true, but not the point. These kind of mechanics are an abstract tool to fix game problems. Marines aren't losing their doctrines when an imperial knight is stomping around somewhere nearby because of fluff, but to provide a counter-balance to the undeniable synergy soup brings. It also serves to reduce potential unintended interactions, like stacking Contagions of Nurgle with the shriveling pox psychic power or having to balance every other chaos unit around them getting to shoot/hit targets with -1T because a DG ally is nearby. The fluff shell for this could surely have been chosen more elegantly, but that doesn't really change what its purpose is.
- "We don't know the full story yet/DG need contagions to counterbalance all the nerfs" maybe yes, maybe no. It heavily depends on points, stratagems and warlord traits. As of now, we don't know of any big nerfs outside of the drone. The only thing that really got worse when it doesn't have access to contagions are the flails, as GW probably didn't want them to be wounding T4 models on 2+. Any unit that has them also got a massive boost to their combat ability (more WS/plague knives/axes), so that shouldn't really have a huge impact. If daemon engines, plague marines and terminators, despite mono DG not being a powerful army (goonhammer ranks solo DG "low mid tier"), are getting worse than they were in the old codex, it will be bad for both types of armies. Under the assumption that DG are not getting a kick in the nuts from the unknowns described above, the DG part of your army should be of similar power as they were even before you apply contagions. In the end, while certainly a cool and useful ability, I doubt that a situational -1 toughness aura is powerful enough to turn a bad unit into a great one.
- "Players are being punished for bringing DG". The essence behind this is that all 'Followers of Nurgle' players see any reward to mono-DG as a punishment to themselves. What people are suggesting is instead is to not reward mono-DG - essentially throwing them under the bus so their army doesn't lose out on anything.
- "Daemons are part of the DG codex" These were clearly meant for summoning, it has never for even one second been possible to build a detachment out of a Codex: Death Guard without losing all detachment benefits. If you bring a daemon detachment, you are playing a second codex with all the additional options, stratagems, relics, psychic powers and PA toys. No other codex has as many rules affecting another codex' units as nurgle daemons have affecting DG units. Every time "NURGLE DAEMON" is mentioned, this also works for all MBH, PBC, drones, possessed, defilers, daemon princes and Mortarion. And, of course, there is the rumor of daemons being gone from the codex which makes perfect sense when they've just stopped reprinting every marine unit five times.
- "There is no advantage to bringing soup/DG have just as much synergy with their own codex as with daemons" I really don't know how to respond to this, it's just so obviously wrong. How to you convince someone that the sky is blue? Did we not just come out of an edition that had soup reign superior above all? Competitive death guard players are still souping despite the drawbacks that 9th edition introduced. Is there any more proof needed? Heck, just Epidemius' tally alone might be more powerful than Contagions of Nurgle. Various characters can heal mortarion, daemon princes or PBC. GUO can revive blight haulers or the new 3 wound T5 possessed. A Feculent Gnarlmaw allows daemon engines to fall back and shoot or charge and advance. Nurglings can score or contest objectives during the second command phase which plague marines, cultists and pox walkers cannot even hope to get within 3" of without charges. Granted, GW might put an axe in most of these with the next daemons codex, but this has nothing to do with Codex: Death Guard.
- "DG souping with nurgle daemons should not be on the same level as DG souping with TS". True, and it isn't. As far as I can tell, the only thing DG get out of a TS detachment is warptime, and GW has made sure that running two primarchs who hate each other will extremely limit your army's ability to coordinate. Daemons and DG already work really well with each other, despite no rule explicitly saying so. I think the vision here is a fluff based ally matrix with multiple tiers of allies, which has never really worked well for the game, and just is not a part of 9th edition - either you can ally or you can't. If I had to solve this problem, I'd probably introduce a "daemonkin" rule in Codex: Daemons which would reward players for staying true to one god, but at the same time would have to be weaker than the reward for playing just one codex or the other.
- "Nurgle daemons are the same as assassins and inquisitors" They are not. Nurgle daemons are both capable of forming a fully functional (though boring) army on their own, as well as a chaos undivided daemon army. I'm sure if the inquisition would be a stand alone army rather than a supplementary force for all imperium armies they would receive the same treatment as Custodes or Knights. When their codex comes about, I'm sure daemons will also receive a similar rules to doctrines or contagions of nurgle for playing and army drawn from just one codex.
- "People just want to play their armies of old" They newest codex that could potentially allow both a mixed army of daemons and death guard was 4th edition released 13 ago which allowed you to summon generic greater and lesser daemons - a great unclean one and a mix of plague bearers and nurglings if my memory serves right. If you really wanted to run that, nothing really prevents you from doing so, especially not the Contagions of Nurgle. And there really is little reason to worry that you can't - every single DG armies placing well in an event in the last two months brought some daemons along.

So, there, I addressed every argument, again, so it would be great if any further discussion would happen in kind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
DoN may have more synergy with DG, but DG have even more synergy with other DG so that argument is not valid.

Yes, you keep repeating this, but competitive data clearly proves you wrong. There have been plenty of death guard lists placing in the top 4 tournaments over the course of the last three years, but every single one was running some amount of daemons. Heck, even the ones that come closest to being a pure army still require Epidemius to work. In the tactics thread most advice for DG players trying to improve boiled down to buying parts of another army.

If you really do care, I can compile a list of top DG lists of the last 1-2 years, but I'm reluctant to put in the effort if the response is just "but I say" or "competitive doesn't matter", as it often is when people are confronted with hard facts.

Took one piece out of context and ignored the rest, including a direct question. What was the phrase? "The only conclusion left to draw is you are wrong on this."

"I would respond to more of your arguments if more of them were valid"

I also answered that question when you asked it for the first time, but unsurprisingly, you ignored the answer.

 Jidmah wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
DoN may have more synergy with DG, but DG have even more synergy with other DG so that argument is not valid.

Yes, you keep repeating this, but competitive data clearly proves you wrong. There have been plenty of death guard lists placing in the top 4 tournaments over the course of the last three years, but every single one was running some amount of daemons. Heck, even the ones that come closest to being a pure army still require Epidemius to work. In the tactics thread most advice for DG players trying to improve boiled down to buying parts of another army.

If you really do care, I can compile a list of top DG lists of the last 1-2 years, but I'm reluctant to put in the effort if the response is just "but I say" or "competitive doesn't matter", as it often is when people are confronted with hard facts.

Took one piece out of context and ignored the rest, including a direct question. What was the phrase? "The only conclusion left to draw is you are wrong on this."

"I would respond to more of your arguments if more of them were valid"

I also answered that question when you asked it for the first time, but unsurprisingly, you ignored the answer.

You didn't fail to respond to multiple arguments; you artificially created an argument I didn't make and responded to that. And no, you didn't. So yeah, you remain wrong on this. Notice how no one is agreeing with you?

Here, yes or no question: Should an army that restricts itself to just Nurgle have any bonuses over one that does not in order to compensate for the tactical cost of missing out on other units?

Please take this discussion to another thread, it's overstayed its welcome in News and Rumours.

That is fair, I apologize.

 Jidmah wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
DoN may have more synergy with DG, but DG have even more synergy with other DG so that argument is not valid.

Yes, you keep repeating this, but competitive data clearly proves you wrong. There have been plenty of death guard lists placing in the top 4 tournaments over the course of the last three years, but every single one was running some amount of daemons. Heck, even the ones that come closest to being a pure army still require Epidemius to work. In the tactics thread most advice for DG players trying to improve boiled down to buying parts of another army.

If you really do care, I can compile a list of top DG lists of the last 1-2 years, but I'm reluctant to put in the effort if the response is just "but I say" or "competitive doesn't matter", as it often is when people are confronted with hard facts.

Top tournament lists will always be twinked out to the extreme that doesn't really indicate a problem with allies. In fact like I had said, just include demons in the new book as limited offerings that can be taken and they don't then even need to be allies just field them without hindering the rest of your force, you know like demons operate in the fluff with DG.

You also want to know why those top DG lists ran demons over the years ? First, DG as it was wasn't super good, was a very dated codex and their strats were weak. The book, on its own taking just mono DG stuff wasn't very good, I know because I play them. Honestly the few tricks demons could give them just made the list more fun to play and didn't really do much to make my lists OP pro tournament net lists. I ran high majority of plague marines, because I liked them, even if they weren't amazing, even when they were super expensive.

The reason most DG lists were told to " take demons " simply boiled down to the fact DG stuff came out pretty weak, over expensive or lacking reliability. Oddly, demons gave them that. If the new codex makes mono DG work, you'll hear much less about how people should take them. That said there is 0 reason why nurgle demons shouldn't be in the codex and taken without detracting from DG units capabilities if they are taken. I mean if someone doesn't like the demons, no one is forced to take them but they should be an option for army selection if someone does appreciate them.

 MinMax wrote:
Please take this discussion to another thread, it's overstayed its welcome in News and Rumours.

You're right, there is no point in arguing with a person that isn't even reading responses anyways.

Edit: I just realized that it sounds like I might be addressing AngryAngel80, I'm not. I read and understood your post. Even though I disagree with it, I will stop this fruitless discussion now as it really doesn't belong in this thread or this sub-forum.

January 16th is the earliest possible date for pre-orders, so let's keep our fingers crossed.

New article up

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/01/07/plague-companies-return-with-new-rules-for-codex-death-guard/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kdeathguard07012021&fbclid=IwAR2kT1YWkiKP4Cza_n721LspBRYJF-bwx3hYCnNUJRLEXDEFEu-F_1nICKo

Damn i hope Thousand Sons get atleast half the love DG gets.

Also confirmation that preorder for Death Guard will be on the 16th at the bottom of the article

Harbingers significantly changed from how they appeared in War of the Spider, meaning that we can't assume any of the others are the same even with some abilities (e.g. traits) having the same names. Really like the company-specific contagions.

I guess I missed this last time, but Contagions being aura abilities that aren't technically aura abilities made my eyes roll.
What is wrong with their rules writing?

Voss wrote:
I guess I missed this last time, but Contagions being aura abilities that aren't technically aura abilities made my eyes roll.
What is wrong with their rules writing?

Guess they are trying to prevent any kind of unexpected synergy with aura boosting abilities.

The diffrent Contagions being WLT seems like a pretty cool concept, and it makes Mortarions ability make even more sense.

Iracundus wrote:

Voss wrote:
I guess I missed this last time, but Contagions being aura abilities that aren't technically aura abilities made my eyes roll.
What is wrong with their rules writing?

Guess they are trying to prevent any kind of unexpected synergy with aura boosting abilities.

Can't Vox Scream then either. Makes sense.

Voss wrote:
I guess I missed this last time, but Contagions being aura abilities that aren't technically aura abilities made my eyes roll.
What is wrong with their rules writing?

Whenever gw comes up with x they come up with anti-x and soon enough anti-anti-x

Biasn wrote:
Damn i hope Thousand Sons get atleast half the love DG gets.

Aye, and the other seven Legions as well.

So Death Guard just got a points updates and I get the feeling these are the same points we'll be seeing in the codex.

Plague Marines are up from 18 points to 21 for example which would be acceptable after the current changes.

poxwalkers down to 5 points.

Blightlord Terminators are now 40 points

Deathshrouds up to 50 points.

Nurgle Daemons seem to be completely gone.

Myphitic Blight Launchers up to 140 points. That's a lot of points for one of them...

Plague Surgeon going up by 10 points. He better get some worthwhile boosts as he was rather "meh" at 65.
Tallyman is also going up by 10 points.

Foetid Bloat Drones seem to be dropping in points overall.

Possessed going up to 24 points.

Entropy Cannons down to 5 points from 20 a piece. That's a huge change if it isn't a typo.

Lord of Contagion going up by 5 points. My guess is he getting some new bonuses.

Lord of Virulence is 120 points and the new fortification is 75 points.

What might be gone: No Nurgle Daemon points listed so they might be gone from the codex. Also no normal power armor sorcerer.

 Eldarsif wrote:
So Death Guard just got a points updates and I get the feeling these are the same points we'll be seeing in the codex.

Plague Marines are up from 18 points to 21 for example which would be acceptable after the current changes.

poxwalkers down to 5 points.

Blightlord Terminators are now 40 points

Deathshrouds up to 50 points.

Nurgle Daemons seem to be completely gone.

When was this?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
So Death Guard just got a points updates and I get the feeling these are the same points we'll be seeing in the codex.

Plague Marines are up from 18 points to 21 for example which would be acceptable after the current changes.

poxwalkers down to 5 points.

Blightlord Terminators are now 40 points

Deathshrouds up to 50 points.

Nurgle Daemons seem to be completely gone.

When was this?

Just released on WarCom

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/76UtmPgtSCGKJAnW.pdf

Could be that they are only listing changed numbers in each codex as I am not seeing points for Heavy Slugger, Rothail Volley Gun and Plaguespitters under the PBC listing.

Eldarsif - thanks for the summary.

They also list something called Deadly Pathogens which is probably one of the new things in the codex:

Acidic Malady - 20 pts
Explosive Outbreak - 20 pts
Virulent Fever - 20 pts
Befouling Runoff - 10 pts
Unstable Sickness - 15 pts
Corrosive Filth - 20 pts
Viscous Death - 10 pts

the PBC with entropy has gone from 160 to 170
and with spitters from 170 to 165.
That seems fair considering the BS boost.

Interesting to note that chaos lord and sorcerer are 5pts more than the CSM version and defiler is a full 30pts more. Presumably they are all getting Disgustingly Resilient baked in?

DG helbrutes are 5pts more than CSM, maybe just to account for contagions?

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
So Death Guard just got a points updates and I get the feeling these are the same points we'll be seeing in the codex.

Plague Marines are up from 18 points to 21 for example which would be acceptable after the current changes.

poxwalkers down to 5 points.

Blightlord Terminators are now 40 points

Deathshrouds up to 50 points.

Nurgle Daemons seem to be completely gone.

When was this?

Just released on WarCom

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/76UtmPgtSCGKJAnW.pdf

Could be that they are only listing changed numbers in each codex as I am not seeing points for Heavy Slugger, Rothail Volley Gun and Plaguespitters under the PBC listing.

That's the new method for points. If they don't have a price then they're essentially "free" options. They don't cost extra.

Both Plague Marines and Possessed have their old price for the Undivided Legions. I guess that means they won't be getting their additional wounds in a FAQ. Also it looks like Predators are getting separate datasheets for lascannon and autocannon models in the Death Guard codex just like loyalists.

 Eldarsif wrote:
They also list something called Deadly Pathogens which is probably one of the new things in the codex:

Acidic Malady - 20 pts
Explosive Outbreak - 20 pts
Virulent Fever - 20 pts
Befouling Runoff - 10 pts
Unstable Sickness - 15 pts
Corrosive Filth - 20 pts
Viscous Death - 10 pts

Yes, these increase the effectiveness of one character model's plague weapons.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/12/08/death-guard-rules-preview-part-2-deadly-pathogens/

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
So Death Guard just got a points updates and I get the feeling these are the same points we'll be seeing in the codex.

Plague Marines are up from 18 points to 21 for example which would be acceptable after the current changes.

poxwalkers down to 5 points.

Blightlord Terminators are now 40 points

Deathshrouds up to 50 points.

Nurgle Daemons seem to be completely gone.

When was this?

Just released on WarCom

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/76UtmPgtSCGKJAnW.pdf

Could be that they are only listing changed numbers in each codex as I am not seeing points for Heavy Slugger, Rothail Volley Gun and Plaguespitters under the PBC listing.

New codex　style. Better get used to it. Base　cost　is cheapest configuration. Rest upgrades. Not neccessarily default on datasheet for some reason like necron command barge has gauss in datasheet and　can change　it　to tesla but points has it with tesla and gauss as　upgrade.

0 cost weapons not listed thus. And different units can　have different costs in this format.

Possessed max unit is 10 @ 24ppm. 240pts. for 30 T5 wounds with 4 attacks each, -1 damage and -1 T bubble? Yes please.

 puma713 wrote:
Possessed max unit is 10 @ 24ppm. 240pts. for 30 T5 wounds with 4 attacks each, -1 damage and -1 T bubble? Yes please.

They do sound awesome but I can't face buying those models.

 lare2 wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
Possessed max unit is 10 @ 24ppm. 240pts. for 30 T5 wounds with 4 attacks each, -1 damage and -1 T bubble? Yes please.

They do sound awesome but I can't face buying those models.

My plan later in the year is to make some more Nurgly Possessed conversions. The current Possessed models look totally wrong for a DG army (even if you liked the models, though I don’t).

 lare2 wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
Possessed max unit is 10 @ 24ppm. 240pts. for 30 T5 wounds with 4 attacks each, -1 damage and -1 T bubble? Yes please.

They do sound awesome but I can't face buying those models.

I'm kitbashing Plague Marines, Possessed and Putrid Blightkings for mine. Expensive, yes, but should be worth it.

Biasn wrote:
Damn i hope Thousand Sons get atleast half the love DG gets.

Unlikely, since GW generally treats Tzeentch like a red-headed stepchild.

 lare2 wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
Possessed max unit is 10 @ 24ppm. 240pts. for 30 T5 wounds with 4 attacks each, -1 damage and -1 T bubble? Yes please.

They do sound awesome but I can't face buying those models.

Replacing possessed with some awesome third party model is probably the easiest thing to do. Especially if you only need 10 now.

Also, death guard cultists are only 5ppm, compared to regular csm cultists which are 6ppm.. really looking forward for the new codex..

 Jidmah wrote:

 lare2 wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
Possessed max unit is 10 @ 24ppm. 240pts. for 30 T5 wounds with 4 attacks each, -1 damage and -1 T bubble? Yes please.

They do sound awesome but I can't face buying those models.

Replacing possessed with some awesome third party model is probably the easiest thing to do. Especially if you only need 10 now.

Please suggest some? I am using older Chaos bits and modern Plague Marines, and adding some tentacles from various places, and trying out some wierd heads, so.. I am needing 2 more guys.. (not running 10, but 7, as it should be, lol)

Has anything been released about what the orb of dessication is on LoC?

Also, Chimes of contagion on Deathshroud
Sigil of Decay on PMs

Are DG possessed definitely 3 wounds?

Abaddon303 wrote:
Are DG possessed definitely 3 wounds?

Yes, it said so in one of the articles.

I thought that was just T5 and disgustingly resilient

 puma713 wrote:

 lare2 wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
Possessed max unit is 10 @ 24ppm. 240pts. for 30 T5 wounds with 4 attacks each, -1 damage and -1 T bubble? Yes please.

They do sound awesome but I can't face buying those models.

I'm kitbashing Plague Marines, Possessed and Putrid Blightkings for mine. Expensive, yes, but should be worth it.

Now that you've mentioned it, I am going to make mine out of Putrid Blightkings. Anything but the current sculpts.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I thought that was just T5 and disgustingly resilient

Nope:

When you consider that Plague Marines, Death Guard Possessed, Blightlord Terminators, and Deathshroud Terminators also gain an additional Wound in the new codex,

So we can assume that blightlords lost their 4++ they went down in points and gained a wound and more movement. That doesn’t seem right. Who knows about the deathshroud who went up in points they may still have the 4++

broxus wrote:
So we can assume that blightlords lost their 4++ they went down in points and gained a wound and more movement. That doesn’t seem right. Who knows about the deathshroud who went up in points they may still have the 4++

I would like that on deathshroud but doubt it. They have historically been overpriced and their ws went to 2+. TBF they only went up by a few points and most of that is the new cost of their flamers (Used to be free and now 5pts)

broxus wrote:
So we can assume that blightlords lost their 4++ they went down in points and gained a wound and more movement. That doesn’t seem right. Who knows about the deathshroud who went up in points they may still have the 4++

I would assume they are 5++ now.

Yea I’m tracking that with the baby flamers they now cost 170pts so a 29pt increase almost 10pts each.

broxus wrote:
Yea I’m tracking that with the baby flamers they now cost 170pts so a 29pt increase almost 10pts each.

No, they are 50pts per terminator. That includes all wargear.
The Champion can take an additional flamer for +5 points.

So 150 for 3 or 155 if champ takes second flamer.

170 is only if they bring the new toy Chimes of contagion which we have no idea what it does

Fingers crossed the Chimes of Contagion gives a bonus to/re-roll for charging

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Fingers crossed the Chimes of Contagion gives a bonus to/re-roll for charging

That would be nice, but considering the name I'm guessing it gives some extra range to our contagions. Making them true heralds of Mortarion like they are in the lore.

LOC didn’t go up in points if you took the Plagurdeaper, he is still 120pts with a 5pt optional upgrade.

Doohicky wrote:
Has anything been released about what the orb of dessication is on LoC?

Rules? No idea. But it's probably there to account for the thing Felthius had in his other hand.

I can't wait for the rule that only allows a Lord of Contagion to take an Orb of Dessication if he also has a Man Reaper, but not if he has the other weapon option.

So when the new codex drops, do we use the points costs in this faq/errata, or do we use the points in the codex?

 l0k1 wrote:
So when the new codex drops, do we use the points costs in this faq/errata, or do we use the points in the codex?

I would HOPE the Codex. But who knows?

One would hope they exactly the same.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
So when the new codex drops, do we use the points costs in this faq/errata, or do we use the points in the codex?

I would HOPE the Codex. But who knows?

Given the timing (of the planned publication of the Codex), it'd be this document
But given that publication would be a matter of weeks before this one, there shouldn't be any difference unless they caught a mistake that they couldn't correct before printing.


... but you'd think they'd insert a line of clarification in a self-published pdf like sane people. ('this supersedes the following 9th edition codexes and supplements: necrons, space marines, etc...')

I was happy they said preorders go up on 16JAN.

 Jidmah wrote:

 MinMax wrote:
Please take this discussion to another thread, it's overstayed its welcome in News and Rumours.

You're right, there is no point in arguing with a person that isn't even reading responses anyways.

Edit: I just realized that it sounds like I might be addressing AngryAngel80, I'm not. I read and understood your post. Even though I disagree with it, I will stop this fruitless discussion now as it really doesn't belong in this thread or this sub-forum.

January 16th is the earliest possible date for pre-orders, so let's keep our fingers crossed.

It's all good, I can disagree with someone and respect their opinion on it. It's a art seemingly lost to time if it was ever really easy to come by. Appreciate the clarification though. I just love my nurglings.


Edit: Sounds good with the companies but man, those MBH points, ouch. Does it just sound a bit steep to me or anyone else ? Feels like some good old GW over pointing at its finest or what we call the recost mambo. Even with the upped BS it just feels a bit rough but we haven't seen their rules otherwise so maybe they will still be worth it.

The possessed seem really tasty if I'm honest.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:


Edit: Sounds good with the companies but man, those MBH points, ouch. Does it just sound a bit steep to me or anyone else ? Feels like some good old GW over pointing at its finest or what we call the recost mambo. Even with the upped BS it just feels a bit rough but we haven't seen their rules otherwise so maybe they will still be worth it.

The possessed seem really tasty if I'm honest.

It seems a bit rough, but they were too cheap at 100 for sure. As my friends call them: they are basically DG Hellbrutes, slightly faster, worse in melee but with a 5++ and a bunch of supportive rules. Whether that package is worth 20ish points over Hellbrutes who are already kinda meh is debatable but luckily I personally didn't rush and bought 9 of them while they were arguably OP. 21 for PM seems very nice though, I was personally expecting at least 23 knowing GW.

 Castozor wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:


Edit: Sounds good with the companies but man, those MBH points, ouch. Does it just sound a bit steep to me or anyone else ? Feels like some good old GW over pointing at its finest or what we call the recost mambo. Even with the upped BS it just feels a bit rough but we haven't seen their rules otherwise so maybe they will still be worth it.

The possessed seem really tasty if I'm honest.

It seems a bit rough, but they were too cheap at 100 for sure. As my friends call them: they are basically DG Hellbrutes, slightly faster, worse in melee but with a 5++ and a bunch of supportive rules. Whether that package is worth 20ish points over Hellbrutes who are already kinda meh is debatable but luckily I personally didn't rush and bought 9 of them while they were arguably OP. 21 for PM seems very nice though, I was personally expecting at least 23 knowing GW.

Well, they gained a wound and BS/WS. Presumably they will still have 3/4 of a page of special rules like granting light cover. Perhaps the Tri-Lobe bonus is “counts as round 4” for contagion.

If they don’t keep the cover save aura they are not going to be worth taking. I’m curious if hellbrutes will get -2 to all incoming damage. If so that could be interesting even if they don’t have an invul.

I was looking the new points and Helbrutes don't have an option listed for Missile Launchers.

Also, Is Sigil of Decay a new war gear option for Plague Marines? I don't recognize it.

 l0k1 wrote:
I was looking the new points and Helbrutes don't have an option listed for Missile Launchers.

Also, Is Sigil of Decay a new war gear option for Plague Marines? I don't recognize it.

If the missile launchers are the same price as the base loadout for the helbrute, they won't show up in the points list as an upgrade I think.

Why is the box of plague marines listed as new on the GW website?

 Phobos wrote:
Why is the box of plague marines listed as new on the GW website?

New box, probably.

 l0k1 wrote:
I was looking the new points and Helbrutes don't have an option listed for Missile Launchers.

This is how the new system works. If a weapon or wargear is unlisted, its free. [Well, baked into the base cost. Sometimes.]

Now you may think that for units with a long equipment list, its easy to miss entries or make mistakes, well...

I haven't really looked at the 9th books so I didn't realize. That's interesting. Thanks for clearing it up.

 l0k1 wrote:
I haven't really looked at the 9th books so I didn't realize. That's interesting. Thanks for clearing it up.

Well, it is in the intro to the document as well.

You must then add points for each weapon, or item of wargear, that is included in that unit if it is listed in that unit’s entry (weapons and
wargear not listed in a unit’s entry cost no additional points to include in that unit).

Voss wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
I haven't really looked at the 9th books so I didn't realize. That's interesting. Thanks for clearing it up.

Well, it is in the intro to the document as well.

You must then add points for each weapon, or item of wargear, that is included in that unit if it is listed in that unit’s entry (weapons and
wargear not listed in a unit’s entry cost no additional points to include in that unit).

After you clarified, I went back and looked at the intro again. In my excitement I skimmed it and went to look for the new points

There is a "sigil of decay" option in the Plague Marines entry. Anyone a guess what that is? Icon of despair is still there, too, so it's not just th with a fancy name.
Daemon Princes' wings are now "foetid"... I wouldn't be surprised to see him only move 10" with those

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
There is a "sigil of decay" option in the Plague Marines entry. Anyone a guess what that is? Icon of despair is still there, too, so it's not just th with a fancy name.
Daemon Princes' wings are now "foetid"... I wouldn't be surprised to see him only move 10" with those

It's probably the thing one of the marines is holding which we were using as icon instead if the overpriced single icon model

 Castozor wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:


Edit: Sounds good with the companies but man, those MBH points, ouch. Does it just sound a bit steep to me or anyone else ? Feels like some good old GW over pointing at its finest or what we call the recost mambo. Even with the upped BS it just feels a bit rough but we haven't seen their rules otherwise so maybe they will still be worth it.

The possessed seem really tasty if I'm honest.

It seems a bit rough, but they were too cheap at 100 for sure. As my friends call them: they are basically DG Hellbrutes, slightly faster, worse in melee but with a 5++ and a bunch of supportive rules. Whether that package is worth 20ish points over Hellbrutes who are already kinda meh is debatable but luckily I personally didn't rush and bought 9 of them while they were arguably OP. 21 for PM seems very nice though, I was personally expecting at least 23 knowing GW.

Yeah I have a feeling like the MBH is going to see a point adjustment in the not too distant future. Though the plague marine price at 21 is alright so that is something I suppose.

Only problem I see with MBH at this point cost is that running 3 of them is going to be very expensive. Could be that they removed the trifecta bonus from them so there is no need to run a squad of 3 anymore. I wouldn't mind that.

They already said that trilobe is going to be a thing though.

If they remain mostly unchanged, they might be hitting on 2+, which is pretty a pretty awesome thing to do for multi-meltas and missiles. I would still bring 3 of those, but the higher point costs surely would throw a wrench in the lists bringing 6-9 of them currently.

So no greater possessed or lord discordant in the new dex, and all lesser daemons are out that's very disappointing. Loyal marines get more and more access to extra datasheets over the editions and we lost entries and didn't get fluffy additions to bolster our limited roster.

Also a lot of the price hikes for vehicles are undeserved, yes BS rises for daemon engines but the new disgustingly resilient is a lot worse than 5+++.

Sninsch wrote:
So no greater possessed or lord discordant in the new dex, and all lesser daemons are out that's very disappointing. Loyal marines get more and more access to extra datasheets over the editions and we lost entries and didn't get fluffy additions to bolster our limited roster.

Also a lot of the price hikes for vehicles are undeserved, yes BS rises for daemon engines but the new disgustingly resilient is a lot worse than 5+++.

Lord Discordants don't fit with the fluff. Greater possessed is weird to be absent.

Also, you haven't seen the rules - how can you say the vehicles are over priced?!

Plague Marines are looking mighty tasty at 21 points. That's cheaper than I expected. Glad I stocked up on a few.

Umbros wrote:
Lord Discordants don't fit with the fluff. Greater possessed is weird to be absent.

Also, you haven't seen the rules - how can you say the vehicles are over priced?!

It's pretty unlikely that PBC, defilers or drones get any new rules beyond what we know. The only one still up for questions is the MBH since it has a pile of special rules which might or might not have changed.

 Jidmah wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
There is a "sigil of decay" option in the Plague Marines entry. Anyone a guess what that is? Icon of despair is still there, too, so it's not just th with a fancy name.
Daemon Princes' wings are now "foetid"... I wouldn't be surprised to see him only move 10" with those

It's probably the thing one of the marines is holding which we were using as icon instead if the overpriced single icon model

That would be the icon of despair.

Voss wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
There is a "sigil of decay" option in the Plague Marines entry. Anyone a guess what that is? Icon of despair is still there, too, so it's not just th with a fancy name.
Daemon Princes' wings are now "foetid"... I wouldn't be surprised to see him only move 10" with those

It's probably the thing one of the marines is holding which we were using as icon instead if the overpriced single icon model

That would be the icon of despair.

These are icons:


I'm talking about the guy who apparently forgot to bring a pole, seen in the back:

That piece was always explicitly labelled as an Icon of Despair:

There’s an Icon of Despair included, so your unit can feature an icon bearer.

But yeah, you're probably right that the MP icon will now be the Sigil

Good shout although that would mean you don't get an icon in the PM box. Perhaps it could be run as either.

It the icon doesn't get some incredible new rules, I really couldn't care less.

 Jidmah wrote:
It the icon doesn't get some incredible new rules, I really couldn't care less.

Got to agree somewhat. At very least have the Icon of Despair feel like something Nurge, and not Night Lords, would benefit or fit thematically a little better. I sorta like re-roll natural wound rolls of one in melee. But that's probably just GW's other game talking and works better for non-plague CSM stuff. I haven't really thought about how it would affect the game beyond there probably has to be a stacking effect with plague weapons to make it worthwhile.

Once per game, give +1 to-wound with all Plague Weapons for the Phase?

Yeah not sure about the Icon, but what if the sigil of corruption treats the units as one battle round higher for it's contagions table?

I could also see us getting a strat along those lines too

 JNAProductions wrote:
Once per game, give +1 to-wound with all Plague Weapons for the Phase?

That seems like it can really messy real fast without FFG-ing up the table (read: using tokens). While units with Icons are usually aren't that many on any given table, they can be. The 40k designers seem more apprehensive to using tokens than even AoS. It also feels kinda unfair that units without plague weapons get a more benefit of from the Icon (basically plague weapons). Feels wrong that non-Death Guard Legions and warbands get a more steady use for their praise to Nurgle over the truly dedicated.

I want the Icon to mimic something well known about the particular Chaos god's rules as to be pretty easy to remember. At the same time, the Icon should also be just as useful to the devout followers too. Preferably for the same points cost since Cult marines are still a thing, so the Undivided legions can still take them if they want. That seems like a tall order to me.

I am sure its possible, I just am not super familiar with Chaos Icons' past rules. I have largely stuck to none or Chaos Undivided if I had to pick something which I feel also probably should have to be a requirement. Nor do I feel I have a good handle on power in 9th ed to know of ways to stack benefits that would be useful to both devoted Chaos god followers and the CSM the 'what are you doing for me this week' worshipers. Which I think is important for Icons to service both if they are going to come back to being a worthwhile thing for Chaos space marines again.

What if... the Icon(or the sigil) provides a 5+++?

I'd totally run three blocks of 20 then

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd totally run three blocks of 20 then

...why? You'd get more efficiency of special weapons running at max 10.

Judging by the new MFM blocks of 20 sadly aren't an option anymore anyway. 10 is the new max unit size for our Plague Marines.

 Castozor wrote:
Judging by the new MFM blocks of 20 sadly aren't an option anymore anyway. 10 is the new max unit size for our Plague Marines.

Ah, good catch. The whole thing was silly at best anyways.

well there goes my plan for 14-man infantry blobs

Umbros wrote:
Lord Discordants don't fit with the fluff.

The fluff is arbitrary. GW can change it on a whim.

Umbros wrote:
Greater possessed is weird to be absent.

They don't make Death Guard Greater Possessed, so that's why Death Guard don't get to use that unit.

The only non-Death Guard units (aside from vehicles) that the Death Guard get are the ones that they can't really get rid of (generic Chaos Lords/Sorcerers, Possessed) because people already have those.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
But yeah, you're probably right that the MP icon will now be the Sigil

Of course. They want you to buy the separate Icon rather than make one from the kit, so they've made them different things.

Correct on all points IMO. Though I will note we all generally prefer GW change less fluff rather than more.

Has there been any indications about vehicles like the Rhino in the new Codex? Presumably they will still be available but trying to decide whether to make a Space Marine Rhino I picked up cheap second hand for my Death Guard (and convert the crap out of it) or just do it up as a Blood Angels Rhino. I already have a Drop Pod and only one squad of First Born Marines for my Blood Angels (excluding Death Company who are all jump packed up) so I’m leaning towards DG but now I’m afraid GW will do something silly like get rid of them from the new Codex.

The just published MUNITORUM FIELD MANUAL 2021 MK I includes the Chaos Rhino's points value. You're pretty safe with the Rhino continuing in the new Codex since the list also includes the points value of things previewed for the new Codex.

Cheers, that’s great.

All DG units remain playable except the sorcerer without terminator armor, which has presumably been rolled into the malignant plaguecaster. The daemons of nurgle are also gone, but they were re-prints anyways. The only new entries are the Lord of Virulence and the Miasmic Malignifier.

If you don't feel like scrolling through the whole PDF, here is the full points listing for DG, minus the page break:

So Rhinos, Land Raiders, and Predators are the same price as for the Undivided Legions, so probably the same rules, no DR. Chaos Lords and Sorcerer in Terminator armour 5 PPM more, that's for DR, I'd guess. Hellbrutes 5 PPM more and Defilers 30, so are Hellbrutes getting DR and Relentless Hatred for -2 to damage? And what else do Defilers get for those 30 points? Is DR alone worth that?

Edit: Hellbrutes probably just -1 to damage. Forgot, Undivided Hellbrutes don't have Relentless Hatred yet, not until the new Undivided codex.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So Rhinos, Land Raiders, and Predators are the same price as for the Undivided Legions, so probably the same rules, no DR. Chaos Lords and Sorcerer in Terminator armour 5 PPM more, that's for DR, I'd guess. Hellbrutes 5 PPM more and Defilers 30, so are Hellbrutes getting DR and Relentless Hatred for -2 to damage? And what else do Defilers get for those 30 points? Is DR alone worth that?

Edit: Hellbrutes probably just -1 to damage. Forgot, Undivided Hellbrutes don't have Relentless Hatred yet, not until the new Undivided codex.

Defilers get both WS and BS ar 3+, +1 attack (probably baking in hatefull assault). And +1 leadership.

Also nothing stopping GW from changing units in this codex before the release of the CSM one. They already said DG possessed wont have random numbers of attack ( source https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/30/the-most-improved-units-from-codex-death-guard/)
So we may see helbrutes with -2 damage.

strigops wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So Rhinos, Land Raiders, and Predators are the same price as for the Undivided Legions, so probably the same rules, no DR. Chaos Lords and Sorcerer in Terminator armour 5 PPM more, that's for DR, I'd guess. Hellbrutes 5 PPM more and Defilers 30, so are Hellbrutes getting DR and Relentless Hatred for -2 to damage? And what else do Defilers get for those 30 points? Is DR alone worth that?

Edit: Hellbrutes probably just -1 to damage. Forgot, Undivided Hellbrutes don't have Relentless Hatred yet, not until the new Undivided codex.

Defilers get both WS and BS ar 3+, +1 attack (probably baking in hatefull assault). And +1 leadership.

Right, forgot about the improvement to WS and BS, Undivided won't be getting that until the new codex either. I really hope everything getting an additional attack isn't Hateful Assault getting "baked in" as many have theorized. It would mean a lot of the Legions units will be inferior in cc to their loyalist counterparts. Plague Marines 2A, no additional attack on the charge vs intercessors 2A +1 on the charge/when charged. Bad for our fw dreads too. Malefic Volleys are still there, hopefully Hateful Assault is too.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I really hope everything getting an additional attack isn't Hateful Assault getting "baked in" as many have theorized. It would mean a lot of the Legions units will be inferior in cc to their loyalist counterparts. Plague Marines 2A, no additional attack on the charge vs intercessors 2A +1 on the charge/when charged. Bad for our fw dreads too. Malefic Volleys are still there, hopefully Hateful Assault is too.

They won't be superior to Primaris Marines, but they will be superior to First-Born Marines who need Shock Assault to get to 2 Attacks. That's actually not a horrible place to be based on the current background.

I firmly believe we will keep hateful assault but lose Death to the False Emperor. That rule was always clunky. I seriously doubt we lost both. I think the additional attack was to make them more in line with Primaris.

alextroy wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I really hope everything getting an additional attack isn't Hateful Assault getting "baked in" as many have theorized. It would mean a lot of the Legions units will be inferior in cc to their loyalist counterparts. Plague Marines 2A, no additional attack on the charge vs intercessors 2A +1 on the charge/when charged. Bad for our fw dreads too. Malefic Volleys are still there, hopefully Hateful Assault is too.

They won't be superior to Primaris Marines, but they will be superior to First-Born Marines who need Shock Assault to get to 2 Attacks. That's actually not a horrible place to be based on the current background.

What "current background" says thin blooded loyalists are better melee fighters than millennia old veterans empowered by a God? CSM have always been fighty, with loyalists being shooty. It would also cause the issue of loyalist fw dreads having more attacks than CSM fw dreads, despite costing the same price.

broxus wrote:I firmly believe we will keep hateful assault but lose Death to the False Emperor. That rule was always clunky. I seriously doubt we lost both. I think the additional attack was to make them more in line with Primaris.

That's what I expect as well.

broxus wrote:
I firmly believe we will keep hateful assault but lose Death to the False Emperor. That rule was always clunky. I seriously doubt we lost both. I think the additional attack was to make them more in line with Primaris.

Combining two conditional +attack abilities into an unconditional +1 attack makes sense though.

Well, if they also had the third attack from Hateful assault, then 21 points would be really cheap.

I mean, compare them to intercessors at that point. They lose 1 movement and 1 ap on the bolter, but gain T5 -1 damage and much better melee. For pretty much same cost?

Spoletta wrote:
Well, if they also had the third attack from Hateful assault, then 21 points would be really cheap.

I mean, compare them to intercessors at that point. They lose 1 movement and 1 ap on the bolter, but gain T5 -1 damage and much better melee. For pretty much same cost?

Much better melee? How do you figure-they get to reroll 1s to-wound on 2 attacks, +1 on the charge.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Much better melee? How do you figure-they get to reroll 1s to-wound on 2 attacks, +1 on the charge.

Flails. Flails for days.

(Also assorted plague weapon shenanigans that can force multiply very quickly).

Sterling191 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Much better melee? How do you figure-they get to reroll 1s to-wound on 2 attacks, +1 on the charge.

Flails. Flails for days.

(Also assorted plague weapon shenanigans that can force multiply very quickly).

But if they have flails, they don't have worse AP on their Bolters, they don't have Bolters at all.

 Jidmah wrote:

broxus wrote:
I firmly believe we will keep hateful assault but lose Death to the False Emperor. That rule was always clunky. I seriously doubt we lost both. I think the additional attack was to make them more in line with Primaris.

Combining two conditional +attack abilities into an unconditional +1 attack makes sense though.

Maybe, but doubtful. DTTFE lead to some silly powerful luck attacks especially with flails. Most people even usually forgot the rule. However, hateful assault keeps them tied into thier Space Marine lore. They kept the malicious volleys it would be odd they lost the close combat portion of the rule. If GW was going to replace it then they likely would have replaced it all. Chaos units are far more renowned for combat than normal space marines. I believe they just wanted to make PM more in-line with Primaris vs. firstborn marines. Maybe I’m wrong, it doubtful. We will have to wait and see.

Seeing the points drop on flails leads me to believe they were nerfed. Likely they don’t get D3 attacks per attack anymore, but I hope I am wrong.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Much better melee? How do you figure-they get to reroll 1s to-wound on 2 attacks, +1 on the charge.

Flails. Flails for days.

(Also assorted plague weapon shenanigans that can force multiply very quickly).

But if they have flails, they don't have worse AP on their Bolters, they don't have Bolters at all.

And are 10 PPM more. It also ignores that in order to even get into melee you have to get there in the first place, which either involves slogging across the board at 5 movement (in which case you'll almost certainly not be at full strength when you get there), or using a transport (which is more points). Meanwhile those intercessors can fire away with their AP-1 bolters from a nice, safe, 30 away.

And then you have to compare to 19 PPM assault intercessors with their +1A AP-1 chainswords. And then consider the loss of Hateful Assault on everything else. Nah, Hateful Assault has to be in there.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

alextroy wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I really hope everything getting an additional attack isn't Hateful Assault getting "baked in" as many have theorized. It would mean a lot of the Legions units will be inferior in cc to their loyalist counterparts. Plague Marines 2A, no additional attack on the charge vs intercessors 2A +1 on the charge/when charged. Bad for our fw dreads too. Malefic Volleys are still there, hopefully Hateful Assault is too.

They won't be superior to Primaris Marines, but they will be superior to First-Born Marines who need Shock Assault to get to 2 Attacks. That's actually not a horrible place to be based on the current background.

What "current background" says thin blooded loyalists are better melee fighters than millennia old veterans empowered by a God? CSM have always been fighty, with loyalists being shooty. It would also cause the issue of loyalist fw dreads having more attacks than CSM fw dreads, despite costing the same price.

Primaris aren't thin-blooded loyalist. They are the newest, bestest thing in Astartes. Just read their press.

With the price point they put PMs I’m starting to think there is also a chance that Blightlord terminators have maybe kept their 4++. I mean basically you can get 2x PMs (42pts) to every 1x BL (40pts). The damage 1 weapons on the Bl really hurts their damage output. The flail was the only thing killing stuff and there is a good chance it was nerfed.


Who knows if the 4++ will remain, but we will see in the next 2 weeks.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

alextroy wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I really hope everything getting an additional attack isn't Hateful Assault getting "baked in" as many have theorized. It would mean a lot of the Legions units will be inferior in cc to their loyalist counterparts. Plague Marines 2A, no additional attack on the charge vs intercessors 2A +1 on the charge/when charged. Bad for our fw dreads too. Malefic Volleys are still there, hopefully Hateful Assault is too.

They won't be superior to Primaris Marines, but they will be superior to First-Born Marines who need Shock Assault to get to 2 Attacks. That's actually not a horrible place to be based on the current background.

What "current background" says thin blooded loyalists are better melee fighters than millennia old veterans empowered by a God?

Reynold's Manflayer does. Abaddon's envoy to Fabius at the epilogue discusses Primaris with a flat "They are better than us, Fabius. Better in every way that matters"

Reynolds quit because the marketing department started ghost writing parts of his books? That's as cringe as the Alpha Legion stuff

Voss wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

alextroy wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I really hope everything getting an additional attack isn't Hateful Assault getting "baked in" as many have theorized. It would mean a lot of the Legions units will be inferior in cc to their loyalist counterparts. Plague Marines 2A, no additional attack on the charge vs intercessors 2A +1 on the charge/when charged. Bad for our fw dreads too. Malefic Volleys are still there, hopefully Hateful Assault is too.

They won't be superior to Primaris Marines, but they will be superior to First-Born Marines who need Shock Assault to get to 2 Attacks. That's actually not a horrible place to be based on the current background.

What "current background" says thin blooded loyalists are better melee fighters than millennia old veterans empowered by a God?

Reynold's Manflayer does. Abaddon's envoy to Fabius at the epilogue discusses Primaris with a flat "They are better than us, Fabius. Better in every way that matters"

One line, in one book, from one character. Sounds like this particular Black Legionnaire has an inferiority complex when it comes to primaris. Doesn't mean every other Heretic in the galaxy does.

So we don't have any idea what the Daemon Engine guy does do we?

broxus wrote:
With the price point they put PMs I’m starting to think there is also a chance that Blightlord terminators have maybe kept their 4++. I mean basically you can get 2x PMs (42pts) to every 1x BL (40pts). The damage 1 weapons on the Bl really hurts their damage output. The flail was the only thing killing stuff and there is a good chance it was nerfed.


Who knows if the 4++ will remain, but we will see in the next 2 weeks.

Don't the Relic Terminators still have their 4++? If they do then Blightlords will have it also as they are wearing the same armor.

Both types of relic terminator were consolidated into the regular terminator profile. Since we know that our terminators will go to 5" movement and that the Cataphractii Armour rule is eliminated by the new Inexorable Advance, people are assuming that the 4++ might get eliminated.

 Jidmah wrote:
Both types of relic terminator were consolidated into the regular terminator profile. Since we know that our terminators will go to 5" movement and that the Cataphractii Armour rule is eliminated by the new Inexorable Advance, people are assuming that the 4++ might get eliminated.

The brand new 9th marine codex also has a big spankin pic of a cataphractii terminator in the relic terminator entry and the data sheet lists a 5++ only...

I'm betting that's mostly why people are assuming they will be 5++

I’m curious if the MBH’s will now give a -1 to hit aura around then vs the +1 save bonus. Now that terrain rules have been flushed out it makes sense. This could make them very powerful indeed and worth the 140pts.

In terms of Blightlords I really can’t see a reason to run them unless they get a 4++. I would rather have 2x Plague Marines which are obsec, can put out more damage, and are more resilient for the same cost. It is the same reason you still do t see normal terminators in lists and only that assault variant with a 4++

Well, previews are out... and the lord of contagion is officialy without a model.
The combat patrol is leaded by typhus and the chosen of mortarion kit has only the blightbringer and the maligniant plaguecaster.

The Combat Patrol is kinda bad considering the fact that you get a named character in it that you don't want multiple copies of in your army. Weirder still is that it appears Lord of Contagion is now completely unavailable in any form unless Typhus will be double-dipping into that role.

I am also wondering about that champion box. One of those models is just a Plague Marine Champion unless something has changed.

Unless they intend to release Felthius seperately, since he's on his own sprue.

The Combat Patrol is bizare - why not just use all of the Dark Imperium models?
They use the DI Poxwalker sprue twice thrice, which has a random half of a Plague Marine on it...

 JNAProductions wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Well, if they also had the third attack from Hateful assault, then 21 points would be really cheap.

I mean, compare them to intercessors at that point. They lose 1 movement and 1 ap on the bolter, but gain T5 -1 damage and much better melee. For pretty much same cost?

Much better melee? How do you figure-they get to reroll 1s to-wound on 2 attacks, +1 on the charge.

Am I missing something?

If hateful assault is a thing, then these guys have stock -1AP weapons (new plague knives) and RR1 to wound with the same number of attacks, right?

Interesting that they've recut the DI sprues. Might mean that we see some of the missing models (e.g. the Lord of Contagion, Plague Marines) come out as kits alongside the upcoming War Zone Charadon book? Bizarre to not have any LoCs on sale though, especially wihen Felthius' orb is now a wargear option in the codex.

Not impressed with the Combat Patrol, or with the lack of dice.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Interesting that they've recut the DI sprues.

I don't think that there's any evidence that they have re-cut the sprues?

Dark Imperium has the Death Guard/Marines on separate sprues. The Chosen of Mortarion is just one of the standard DI sprues.

Hmm. I'm wondering if those are going to be the most expensive way to buy poxwalkers so far.

Certainly the least valuable combat patrol box, assuming its $140 like the other three.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Interesting that they've recut the DI sprues.

I don't think that there's any evidence that they have re-cut the sprues?

Dark Imperium has the Death Guard/Marines on separate sprues. The Chosen of Mortarion is just one of the standard DI sprues.

The Poxwalker sprue had part of a Plague Marine on it, as did the "Chosen of Mortarion" sprue. So unless there is half a Plague Marine floating around in both sets it is pretty clear that they've recut the sprues.

Not a big fan of these new combat patrols, they clearly designed to discourage buying multiples.

I really have to decide now if I want to start an ad mech by picking up 3x start collectings or not.

I'm surprised that the combat patrol wasn't just the Dark Imperium half. And interesting choice to re-use the plague marine champion

Like, for combat patrol, it could have been the 7 snap-fit guys from DI, and then toss in the three discontinued easy build Plague marines (not the expensive ones)

 GaroRobe wrote:
I'm surprised that the combat patrol wasn't just the Dark Imperium half. And interesting choice to re-use the plague marine champion

Like, for combat patrol, it could have been the 7 snap-fit guys from DI, and then toss in the three discontinued easy build Plague marines (not the expensive ones)

How many pl di was? Combat patrols been　25pl. Unlikely to go at least signficantly more.

 Sasori wrote:
Not a big fan of these new combat patrols, they clearly designed to discourage buying multiples.

FLGS hate them. My FLGS really hates them as they take a lot of space and people do not buy multiple copies for their armies.

Don't think I'll be buying the combat patrol. Just want to make myself some DG possessed and get a few PBC's

I don't think DG Box is bad. Problem is rather that Typhus is... Typhus.

Although if price is reasonable it is not so bad. 7 Plague Marines and 30 Poxwalkers in multiples makes a nice horde.

Sotahullu wrote:
I don't think DG Box is bad. Problem is rather that Typhus is... Typhus.

Although if price is reasonable it is not so bad. 7 Plague Marines and 30 Poxwalkers in multiples makes a nice horde.

Presumably it will be $140 USD like the other combat patrols. If Poxwalkers are $35-$45 a box it makes it roughly as good value as equivalent CP sets

I really don't know why they choose to do it this way so you can't buy the Lord of Contagion anymore.

The know no fear part would have been exactly 25 PL with a second Poxwalker sprue (and the half Plague marine from this sprue could be used with the Champions of Nurgle pack they are releasing separately) so that would have been perfect, no idea why they didn't do that

I regret not picking the LoC off ebay when he was $10 or less

 GaroRobe wrote:
I regret not picking the LoC off ebay when he was $10 or less

Yeah, that thing has Skyrocketed.

I was expecting a DI split but we seem to be down on Lord of Contagion, easy build drone and the DI PM's.

We do have a new termi and some terrain.

The Combat Patrol box makes no sense. There are now DG models in the Codex that cannot be purchased anymore.

Yeah, we really need the Lord of Contagion to be released separately. Also, as far as the DI Marines go, it's add that it looks like the aspiring champion is going to be released separately, but not the others. Which is sad since the DI models are incredible. I mean, this guy is often used as the public face of Plague Marines:

 GaroRobe wrote:
I regret not picking the LoC off ebay when he was $10 or less

Not to rub salt in the wound but thought something like this would happen so picked one up last weekend off ebay for a tenner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Imagine LoC and DI PM will make an appearance at some point though.

We've still got that campaign book coming up with the DG having a major role, might see some of the other DI models dropped alongside it. Fingers crossed.

It's a lot less likely that the DI LOC will be released outside of any larger box/bundle, as he shares his sprue with the Drone and four randos.

It's also possible they release Felthius as a stand-alone kit. The only bit not his sprue is the base decoration with his feet, which could be replaced by a base similar to those that space marine heros have.

That said, I'm quite happy to have two of each LoC and sad that I converted the third Felthius into a Deathshroud terminator

 Lord Damocles wrote:
It's a lot less likely that the DI LOC will be released outside of any larger box/bundle, as he shares his sprue with the Drone and four randos.

Wasn’t that revealed as being released? With the plague caster and the bell guy?

EDIT: Scratch that. Just remembered it’s the champion or whoever as the third guy..

So far the Combat Patrol boxes have all been pretty massive disappointments. The Deathwatch box is just generally boring and aside from getting the Aggressors into melee will struggle to deal with anything other than basic enemy infantry. The Space Wolf box limits the potential value of the box to non-space wolf players by including a space wolf specific LT, as well as including Reivers which most people don't really want any part of. The Blood Angels is the best of the boxes so far as it gives you the most value of the three thus far released, and while Incursors/Infiltrators are less than ideal you can at least work with them a bit - but if you're a Blood Angels player you probably would never want to actually buy it.

​

This box has all the same problems as the Thousand Sons start collecting - a unique HQ character that limits the viability of buying multiple copies to build out an army, and a reliance on basic troops that lack punch against heavier units that your opponent might bring to the table.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's also possible they release Felthius as a stand-alone kit. The only bit not his sprue is the base decoration with his feet, which could be replaced by a base similar to those that space marine heros have.

That said, I'm quite happy to have two of each LoC and sad that I converted the third Felthius into a Deathshroud terminator

The Felthius kit could easily be released as a "champion" box like the one currently being released. I am, however, very glad that I have three LoC and a Felthius so I won't be wanting anything for some time.

So 30 poxwalkers in the box with a max unit size of 20. I Think we may be looking at a increase in unit size.

Ok, still hopeful the book will be aces. The good out of the way, onto the bad. Mean this combat patrol box feels like it sucks.

If you are a brand new player, you may pick up one, but that would end up being it. Any saved money will be wasted with a second Typhus. That's bad for buyers and for stores to carry this box.

I'd further add we don't know if the PW are keeping the FNP or not so they could just be hot garbage that might just be immune to morale. We know DR doesn't help them, they couldn't even get an armor save without being in cover already so unless they keep FNP in some fashion are they even going to be worth it really ? Especially in these numbers ?

I was excited to see they were getting a box, then equally deflated to see the contents. Not even a blight drone ? Seriously ? Why not place a LoC in there instead of Typhus ? You know that model you haven't released on its own from the DI kit ?

As others said why not just place the DI DG half for their combat patrol ? This combat patrol stuff is starting to feel half baked and poorly rolled out.

Sorry for the negative but I just had to voice some of what I'm sure some of us are thinking when we saw this.

Edit: As some said these are poor values when you account for usefulness or buying multiples. I don't think they want them bought in multiple though, this feels most like they want you just to buy one and done. Looks like our sweet new GW wants to limit any thoughts of loss leaders or even the dream of savings in its path forward.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok, still hopeful the book will be aces. The good out of the way, onto the bad. Mean this combat patrol box feels like it sucks.

If you are a brand new player, you may pick up one, but that would end up being it. Any saved money will be wasted with a second Typhus. That's bad for buyers and for stores to carry this box.

I'd further add we don't know if the PW are keeping the FNP or not so they could just be hot garbage that might just be immune to morale. We know DR doesn't help them, they couldn't even get an armor save without being in cover already so unless they keep FNP in some fashion are they even going to be worth it really ? Especially in these numbers ?

I was excited to see they were getting a box, then equally deflated to see the contents. Not even a blight drone ? Seriously ? Why not place a LoC in there instead of Typhus ? You know that model you haven't released on its own from the DI kit ?

As others said why not just place the DI DG half for their combat patrol ? This combat patrol stuff is starting to feel half baked and poorly rolled out.

Sorry for the negative but I just had to voice some of what I'm sure some of us are thinking when we saw this.

yeah but there are 30 poxwalkers in the box so if that mean a bigger mac unit size, it could make up for the lack of Fnp bit

Unless you run Typhus and he keeps the raising of toughness up, how hard is it to waste 30 models with no save and 3 toughness ? Also you'd be spending how much money to buy these max unit sizes ? We will need to see what they do with the rules but I'm not super excited about the prospects right now, if all they are is squishy morale immune instant dead things I think they'd need to be cheaper point wise.

I actually like the new DG combat patrol. I still think it was a mistake to abandon start collecting as a price point (they were ~90 in USD whereas the new ones are 140, triple-digit prices having WAY different optics regardless of % savings), but as a box I think it is cool. The reality is I would be converting that awful Typhus pose anyways so pushing it further into a different HQ choice isn't much of a stretch. But that's me personally.

On a broader view, not sure if GW gains or loses by having a named HQ like that. It de-incentivises duplicate buys which is lost sales UNLESS such an individual goes and buys the models via individual box. I am guess the bean counters determined the trade off was beneficial.

Talbaz wrote:
yeah but there are 30 poxwalkers in the box so if that mean a bigger mac unit size, it could make up for the lack of Fnp bit

Unit size is 10-20 in the 2021 point list. Given the DG codex was already intended to be out (the finalized codex would have been sent to printers months ago), it seems likely that's final.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I actually like the new DG combat patrol. I still think it was a mistake to abandon start collecting as a price point (they were ~90 in USD whereas the new ones are 140, triple-digit prices having WAY different optics regardless of % savings), but as a box I think it is cool. The reality is I would be converting that awful Typhus pose anyways so pushing it further into a different HQ choice isn't much of a stretch. But that's me personally.

On a broader view, not sure if GW gains or loses by having a named HQ like that. It de-incentivises duplicate buys which is lost sales UNLESS such an individual goes and buys the models via individual box. I am guess the bean counters determined the trade off was beneficial.

As a one of buy it might end up ok, but that remains to be seen if the PW are worth really anything. As it is, it feels like an overly week core of an army. You get one named character, one plague marine squad which is good and some questionable plague walkers which might end up being box trash depending on if they are kept viable. Just because they over cost plague walkers to buy doesn't just make the box a good savings then, if they won't be useful or helpful to an army list they take away value and don't add it. As well unless you are really spending a lot of time converting the typhus model that is just dead money eroding the value of an already over expensive box set.

Just getting back into 40k. It says Death Guard Plague Marines 5 to 10. Is that the max the can be now upgraded in the squad? Or can I still make a twenty marine squad?

Seems max of 10 is the only way now.

Boourns!

Mat

Yeah it's pretty weak, where my 14 man squad ? In the ashes of history.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I actually like the new DG combat patrol. I still think it was a mistake to abandon start collecting as a price point (they were ~90 in USD whereas the new ones are 140, triple-digit prices having WAY different optics regardless of % savings), but as a box I think it is cool. The reality is I would be converting that awful Typhus pose anyways so pushing it further into a different HQ choice isn't much of a stretch. But that's me personally.

On a broader view, not sure if GW gains or loses by having a named HQ like that. It de-incentivises duplicate buys which is lost sales UNLESS such an individual goes and buys the models via individual box. I am guess the bean counters determined the trade off was beneficial.

As a one of buy it might end up ok, but that remains to be seen if the PW are worth really anything. As it is, it feels like an overly week core of an army. You get one named character, one plague marine squad which is good and some questionable plague walkers which might end up being box trash depending on if they are kept viable. Just because they over cost plague walkers to buy doesn't just make the box a good savings then, if they won't be useful or helpful to an army list they take away value and don't add it. As well unless you are really spending a lot of time converting the typhus model that is just dead money eroding the value of an already over expensive box set.

Fair point, if the poxies aren't worth it then the box loses a lot of luster.

That's what I'm kind of worried of for this, like this box isn't for me. I already have my poxies/zombies and I'll try them even if they are terrible. I've played this game a long time though.

These boxes seemed designed for new pick ups or those who just started. Selling someone on an expensive box, and 140$ USD for a starter box is expensive to get someone to swallow right off is already hard but then if the units inside are weak, feel weak or even kinda useless, well it would make them feel like this isn't a good fit for them.

This may be the largest case of niche interest and lower use units in these boxes. Won't do any good for their ideal target, a new player with a lack luster offering, at a high price, that ends up making them feel like they made a mistake because vets don't even like or say people should take some of these units.

I hope my skepticism ends up being wrong but I love the DG faction and really was looking forward to this combat patrol box, thinking it might be really nice, all the air left when I saw it. Now I'm just concerned this may end up being a dead fish for a quick start to the army. Was good luck for the players who started them back in the DI days.

Hope the codex ends up great though.

Yeah, DI/ETB/Conquest Death Guard was one of the cheapest armies to build, and I still spend a lot of money.

It feels like GW could sell a lot more expensive kits if they made getting getting into an army as easy as this - people buy the box twice, end up with a decent army base, but will eventually have to get more stuff to properly play it.

Yeah I was thinking it would be like the plague marines of course, a blight drone maybe, hell they could have put a MBH in it because of how how expensive it would be. Kind of thought the LoC would be with it as a way to get that, they could have put possessed in it and maybe people would have been happy to see them this time.

I guess we will find out when the book rules leak and we see what the poxies are looking like but from what we know, feels like this could have been much nicer. Though there have been a couple people saying it looked amazing, by far the reception has been more, wha ?

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So far the Combat Patrol boxes have all been pretty massive disappointments. The Deathwatch box is just generally boring and aside from getting the Aggressors into melee will struggle to deal with anything other than basic enemy infantry. The Space Wolf box limits the potential value of the box to non-space wolf players by including a space wolf specific LT, as well as including Reivers which most people don't really want any part of. The Blood Angels is the best of the boxes so far as it gives you the most value of the three thus far released, and while Incursors/Infiltrators are less than ideal you can at least work with them a bit - but if you're a Blood Angels player you probably would never want to actually buy it.

​

This box has all the same problems as the Thousand Sons start collecting - a unique HQ character that limits the viability of buying multiple copies to build out an army, and a reliance on basic troops that lack punch against heavier units that your opponent might bring to the table.

So people can't build majority of army on discount. Just as gw planned.

Gw has only one goal. Transfer money from your wallet to theirs with minimal expenses

That is fine but sooner or later the current whales will dry up and the old timers that aren't whales will not buy into these over expensive and bland boxes.

This is supposed to be a way to entice and create a new audience but when they are dull, expensive and only a solitary purchase that doesn't really do what they want. Sold on a lack luster product that still feels expensive and lacks on the board effectiveness will just lead to new blood feeling taken for a ride and not breed confidence to spend more.

Sure they are supposed to greedy but they at least used to act like they were giving discounts.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Seems max of 10 is the only way now.

This is the way.

Special rules article

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/01/11/7-of-the-most-gruesome-new-rules-for-the-death-guard/

Abridged summary:

Mortarion has three Warlord traits (when he is your Warlord)

Poxwalkers are now T4 and hit on a 4+ as standard

Chaos Lords & Sorcerers are now T5 with DR + Contagions of Nurgle

Other Contagions from various Plague Companies: The Droning (halves enemy unit's move characteristic when it is within CR range of the Warlord at the start of the opponent's movement phase), and Nurgle's Fruit (While an enemy unit is within CR range of this unit, each time an attack is made by a friendly Mortarion's Chosen Sons model against that unit, the target does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack)

Deathshroud get a sweep attack (S+1 AP-1 D1, 2 hit rolls per attack), but Manreapers are now -1 to hit. New Wargear, Chimes of Contagion, adds 3" to the range of their Contagions of Nurgle ability

Custom Contagion rules in Crusade

Fleshmower has been changed to do 3 hit rolls per attack (S+1, AP-2, D2)

Ordered myself 2 boxes of Deathshroud moments after reading that article

Poxwalkers increased to T4, 7+ save. WS4+ and A2, no special rules listed yet.

Revoltingly Resilient interests me...

 lare2 wrote:
Revoltingly Resilient interests me...

Yes, this and the fact he can take one of the Plague Company's warlord traits makes that Droning Trait really attractive. Mortarion running around with a -1T bubble and a half-movement bubble starting at 9". Units won't be able to get away from him.

Pleased that Chaos Lords and Sorcerers are proper Deathguard now. My OCD always struggled with that.

Deathshroud almost feel like actually being worth 50ppm.

And drones with 12 attacks is just vicious. If Blades of Putrefaction remains intact, it will just outright slaughter any marine unit it touches.

 Denny wrote:
Pleased that Chaos Lords and Sorcerers are proper Deathguard now. My OCD always struggled with that.

Yeah. It made those entries virtually worthless in comparison, and they never felt like part of the army.
They don't even pay much for the boost either (+5 points of vanilla lords and sorcerers). Though the 'malignant plaguecaster' seems to be the only non-terminator sorcerer now.

Most of this looks good.
Unsure I care about the poxwalker changes. They still feel like a chaff unit that's worse at its job. T4 doesn't make up for losing 5+++.

If there truely are no other changes to poxwalkers, I also see reason to play them outside of getting a cheap third troops unit. It would be quite easy to make them more powerful with stratagems though.

 Jidmah wrote:
If there truely are no other changes to poxwalkers, I also see reason to play them outside of getting a cheap third troops unit. It would be quite easy to make them more powerful with stratagems though.

Agreed. Upon first inspection, I feel like I'll be running PMs, one unit of MBH, PBC, drones and either terminators or Mortarion.

I reckon there'll be more to Poxwalkers than meets the eye.

Even if there isn't, being able to throw 10 ablative wounds on a backfield objective for 50 points is far from terrible.

 Jidmah wrote:
Deathshroud almost feel like actually being worth 50ppm.

And drones with 12 attacks is just vicious. If Blades of Putrefaction remains intact, it will just outright slaughter any marine unit it touches.

They are worth it so long as they keep the 4++. We now know that the 2+ WS was to offset the +1 to hit with manreapers so no real gains there.

Max 12 attacks it says.
They have base 4 so this confirms that FBD at least does not have Hateful assault, even though it did have it in current codex.

All signs point to it being gone imo as vehicles have it still for Space Marines

Point for point I think poxwalkers might be more resilient against the sort of weapons generally used to kill them.
they are equally resilient against a lasgun and marginally weaker against a boltgun, except now you can get three poxies for the cost of two.
With a minimum size unit now costing 50pts rather than 70 they are great for completing actions even if they raise a banner/deploy scramblers in your first turn then die...

broxus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Deathshroud almost feel like actually being worth 50ppm.

And drones with 12 attacks is just vicious. If Blades of Putrefaction remains intact, it will just outright slaughter any marine unit it touches.

They are worth it so long as they keep the 4++. We now know that the 2+ WS was to offset the +1 to hit with manreapers so no real gains there.

If there were no hit mod with the cleaving strike it would have been too much. I'm assuming they are at least 3 attacks a piece, so your hitting twice per model on average dice before any rerolls.

The fact that they hit on 2's with the reaping blow is more critical since it prevents them from being bogged down by chaf. Now each guy is getting 5 hits each with a plague weapon.

Don't forget they extend the range of the contagions, so the strength being 7/5 respectively means they are wounding marines and chaf on 2's still rerolling 1's.

They have to have some chance at whiffing.

 puma713 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Seems max of 10 is the only way now.

This is the way.

Doesnt the new PM box still sells 7?

 Red Corsair wrote:
If there were no hit mod with the cleaving strike it would have been too much. I'm assuming they are at least 3 attacks a piece, so your hitting twice per model on average dice before any rerolls.

*points to first post* We know that they will have 4 attacks per model and +1 on the champion.
A unit of 3 will have either 13 S7 AP-3 2 damage attacks hitting on 3s or 26 S5 Ap-1 Attacks hitting on 2s, both re-rolling ones to wound.

Probably means that Lords of Contagion with a Manreaper & Typhus are going to get some kind of sweep attack as well. Niiiiiiice.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Seems max of 10 is the only way now.

This is the way.

Doesnt the new PM box still sells 7?

Right. 3 boxes gets you 2 full units (21, minus one of the Champions).

Execpt there are two max squad size, one in the Field Munatorium field manual faq (5-10), and was in the power rating faq (5-20)

The chances of Hateful assault still being a thing are becoming less and less.

I mean, 10 attacks per terminator?

 lare2 wrote:
I reckon there'll be more to Poxwalkers than meets the eye.

I doubt that they're Transformers.

An interesting mix of rules, but it is also interesting that neither DttFE nor Hateful Assault got a mention.

 Dysartes wrote:

 lare2 wrote:
I reckon there'll be more to Poxwalkers than meets the eye.

I doubt that they're Transformers.

An interesting mix of rules, but it is also interesting that neither DttFE nor Hateful Assault got a mention.

DttFE is going to be a stratagem. DG got the equivalent of ATSKNF afterall ("Remorseless") and loyalists also have the equivalent of DttFE as a stratagem (and against Chaos).

Hateful Assault seems to be gone. DG units got an extra Attack anyway therefore I don't care. However I'm wondering if it is something specific to the DG (maybe to represent their relative slowness ?) or something we are gonna see for all CSM.

Hateful Assault may be gone, but is odd they gave us malicious volleys still. Not to mention ATSKNF. Why so many rules similar to space marine, but just remove one. I think ther is a chance it is still in there, but I just can’t see giving a bloat drone 15 attacks on the charge balanced for 135pts. Then again, Blace Guard Vetrrans and Sanguinary Guard exist.

Custom contagions for crusade!? Interest in the army just doubled.

Well toughness 4 is better but we still need to see more. Like does typhus buff them further ? With a toughness 5 they might not need a save of any kind to shrug off some damage and for their cost that would be tasty. However we don't know if they will get that or if they will be able to do actions or will keep their immunity to morale do we ?

Still a lot up in the air with the poxies, but the to hit increase while nice isn't a real selling point to me as mostly they will end up as backfield meatpopsicles so long as they can interact with objectives still.

Still feels like a pretty weak starter box though, giving you one unit that can do things and 30 meatpopsicles with typhus. However I'll change that up if he still buffs their toughness or gives them feel no pain that could make the poxies used in certain ways some level of effective still as an offensive weapon, defensive detour which would be much better than simply, some dudes ready to die standing next to their happy meals.

Assuming they keep Fearless, Poxwalkers will be a better objective baby sitter than Cultists at minimum.

I'd agree with that which gives them a use.

However that use alone would make the combat patrol box a real boring and lackluster box. Which is why I am thinking there has to be more we haven't seen or some devil in the details to make them more than just an objective camper unit or that box will end up being a pretty big fail.

I mean who needs one unit who can do something ( plague marines ) and a bunch of objective campers with extremely limited damage output.

For their use though it makes me wonder on the whole picture for them or if they just are a cheap T4 objective camper. Which would be alright but not very exciting.

I’m curious if poxwalkers and Cultists will get the CORE keyword and if they spread contagions. If so the damage output of Poxwalkers was significantly improved.

Also, curious if they can do actions such as raise banners.

That is it too, would be nice if poxwalkers could spread contagion, I mean sense would make you think they could or would as they are literally the walking dead killed by a nurgle plague. Logic doesn't need to infringe on GW rules however.

 Dysartes wrote:

 lare2 wrote:
I reckon there'll be more to Poxwalkers than meets the eye.

I doubt that they're Transformers.

That made me chortle.

 lare2 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 lare2 wrote:
I reckon there'll be more to Poxwalkers than meets the eye.

I doubt that they're Transformers.

That made me chortle.

I actually spoke the " More than meets the eye " as it would be said in the cartoon. Sad I know, but totally true.

So the chimes seems like it might be an interesting include since it adds range to the contagion rule, but 15pts might be too steep. Still haven't said what the Sigil of Decay does.

New rules seem nice, Poxwalkers being T4 base is at least somewhat of a nice compensation for DR. But yeah not sold on the new SC box. It is only useful if you want to run poxwalker heavy DG which is a valid approach but not every one's cup of tea. I more of a power armour fan myself, others might prefer some daemon soup and in any local scene were proxies are frowned upon including Typhus drives down the value further if you are not looking for that particular DG archetype.

15 points for 9" contagion(18"+ of coverage from min 3 models) turn 3 deep strike seems amazing to me.

That potentially is a lot of there army covered.

Flamers wounding(-1 T C) T4 on 4's T5+ on 5's rerolling 1's and not to mention all my MBH wounding on T8 on 3's and T5 on 2's is awesome.

I've also not really had problems keeping my MBH alive so turn 3 I expect to still have a lot of firepower left.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I'd agree with that which gives them a use.

However that use alone would make the combat patrol box a real boring and lackluster box. Which is why I am thinking there has to be more we haven't seen or some devil in the details to make them more than just an objective camper unit or that box will end up being a pretty big fail.

I mean who needs one unit who can do something ( plague marines ) and a bunch of objective campers with extremely limited damage output.

For their use though it makes me wonder on the whole picture for them or if they just are a cheap T4 objective camper. Which would be alright but not very exciting.

As well, keep in mind that we might still have the Deep Strike Strat they got from PA but as a generic compared to Plague Company specific. With the generic Outland existing there's some good options to build pressure. Assuming they are indeed cheaper and I was wanting to go this route anyway I'll have to keep that in mind when I acquire the rules. Just need my girlfriend to paint some zombies for me.

COLD CASH wrote:
15 points for 9" contagion(18"+ of coverage from min 3 models) turn 3 deep strike seems amazing to me.

That potentially is a lot of there army covered.

Flamers wounding(-1 T C) T4 on 4's T5+ on 5's rerolling 1's and not to mention all my MBH wounding on T8 on 3's and T5 on 2's is awesome.

I've also not really had problems keeping my MBH alive so turn 3 I expect to still have a lot of firepower left.

Maybe I missing something here, but the contagion is 9" range on turn 3 with the chimes. They have to be more than 9" away from enemies on DS, so it won't help at all as nothing will be in the contagion range.

Is there a breakdown of the Combat Patrol anywhere? Tried OP and ther last 6-7 pages.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Is there a breakdown of the Combat Patrol anywhere? Tried OP and ther last 6-7 pages.

It was shown here.

From the box art and description, it seems to be 30 Poxwalkers, 7 Plague Marines, a Biologus Putrifier grenade dude ad, for reasons we're not clear on, Typhus instead of a generic Lord.

This is the part that matters the most to me:

GW wrote:Regular Chaos Lords of the Death Guard have cause to rejoice, as they now have the resilience to match their pestilent brothers-in-arms. While originally they had more in common with their unblessed peers among the Traitor Legions, now both Chaos Lords and Sorcerers of the Death Guard have Toughness 5, Contagions of Nurgle, and Disgustingly Resilient to better fit into your armies. No longer will they have to abide such an affront to their pride as matching the Toughness of their False Emperor-worshipping counterparts.

Those two units not having matching rules was asinine, and yet another bit no model = no rule nonsense. I'm glad someone with a brain at GW realised how stupid that was and fixed it.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Doesnt the new PM box still sells 7?

For the same price that other armies get 10 models as well. What a bargain!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Assuming they keep Fearless, Poxwalkers will be a better objective baby sitter than Cultists at minimum.

Got to wonder if they have Contagions of Nurgle? New profile, Fearless, and Contagions of Nurgle would be a pretty spicy package for 5 points a model. Not the stay around forever unit of today, but a much more offensively-minded package.

Yeah we will need to see what other things can be worked with that buff the pox walkers or how other units can mesh with them. Like will the medic give out FNP ? Will it work with them ? Will they have supporting strats ? Does Typhus augment them still somehow which you'd imagine he does as that is why he's in the combat patrol box now as well. Do they spread contagions and make their, I am assuming still strength 3 less of a problem ?

I know I've spent a lot of time going round and round on these guys but going into my street cred I started them when when they were plague zombies so they were a big selling factor to me as I love zombies. So their new uses and rules are important to me ( them and nurglings, because they are cool ).

Can't wait to see the whole package of their possible uses and either be let down, elated or some combination of the two. Saying that maybe typhus doesn't buff them persay and instead heals groups of them from depleted squads ? That could be very very nice depending on how many he brings back or if you get strats that can fill them back, psychic powers, etc. Maybe something that helps mitigate the fact that if something wounds them they just keel over. I'd be more than ok they die by the bucketload if they rise again if the list is set up to really push their zombie nature that way.

Talbaz wrote:
Execpt there are two max squad size, one in the Field Munatorium field manual faq (5-10), and was in the power rating faq (5-20)

I would venture to say that the points sheets were pulled directly from the new codex.

 alextroy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Assuming they keep Fearless, Poxwalkers will be a better objective baby sitter than Cultists at minimum.

Got to wonder if they have Contagions of Nurgle? New profile, Fearless, and Contagions of Nurgle would be a pretty spicy package for 5 points a model. Not the stay around forever unit of today, but a much more offensively-minded package.

It wouldn't make sense for them NOT to. Hell, lore wise how else would you get Poxwalkers? They'd have to spread their love and joy.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Assuming they keep Fearless, Poxwalkers will be a better objective baby sitter than Cultists at minimum.

Got to wonder if they have Contagions of Nurgle? New profile, Fearless, and Contagions of Nurgle would be a pretty spicy package for 5 points a model. Not the stay around forever unit of today, but a much more offensively-minded package.

It wouldn't make sense for them NOT to. Hell, lore wise how else would you get Poxwalkers? They'd have to spread their love and joy.

(Fluff) Sense and rules being harmonious isn't necessarily GW's strong point at all times. But having said that, NOT giving poxwalkers one of the new rules DG seem centered around wouldn't make a lot of sense at the same time they are releasing a box with Typhus and 30 poxwalkers.

Disgustingly resilient does the opposite of its fluff in game, so that wouldn't even be the worst offender, unfortunately.

That is what I am worried about. Good ideas and choices led astray seemingly oddly in sake of pushing plague marines by just making say pox walkers not work well with the new mechanics and just leaving them as fearless ( maybe ) toughness 4 objective campers. That would be super boring.

So Felthius, the box is no longer or sale right?
Does he no longer have an entry in the Codex then?

I’ve got his box, converted to 4 regular termies along with a LoC duplicate, for an extra unit of 5.
But i do have a spare box of Felthius that I hadn’t decided what I was doing with yet.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Disgustingly resilient does the opposite of its fluff in game, so that wouldn't even be the worst offender, unfortunately.

With Marines getting W+1 it works perfectly fine representing that resilience if you're not hopelessly hooked on "I need to roll for everything!!!!1!"

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Disgustingly resilient does the opposite of its fluff in game, so that wouldn't even be the worst offender, unfortunately.

With Marines getting W+1 it works perfectly fine representing that resilience if you're not hopelessly hooked on "I need to roll for everything!!!!1!"

Ah yes, the rule with the fluff about it helping them shrug off all but the most grevious of wounds is perfectly represented by doing nothing against the weakest weapons.

Danny76 wrote:
So Felthius, the box is no longer or sale right?
Does he no longer have an entry in the Codex then?

I’ve got his box, converted to 4 regular termies along with a LoC duplicate, for an extra unit of 5.
But i do have a spare box of Felthius that I hadn’t decided what I was doing with yet.

I'm betting Felthius is a Lord of Contagion with Orb of Desiccation.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Disgustingly resilient does the opposite of its fluff in game, so that wouldn't even be the worst offender, unfortunately.

With Marines getting W+1 it works perfectly fine representing that resilience if you're not hopelessly hooked on "I need to roll for everything!!!!1!"

Because no one ever ran Daemon Engines right? Luckily no one ran into mortal wounds either, or they'd be hosed too right now.

Well as others have pointed it on other sites it looks like the Deathshroud keep their 4++. They are keeping their catiphatii armor per the article and didn’t change to relic armor like the loyalists did. The points increase is another clear indication. This is a good indication along with the fact assault terminators gained their 3rd wound and only went up 1pt each. If they don’t have hateful assault or DTTFE as some others believe then it will likely result in a damage nerf and unwarranted points increase. It would have been nice if all attacks hit in a 2+, but for balance reasons I can understand.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Disgustingly resilient does the opposite of its fluff in game, so that wouldn't even be the worst offender, unfortunately.

With Marines getting W+1 it works perfectly fine representing that resilience if you're not hopelessly hooked on "I need to roll for everything!!!!1!"

Well no, because the fluff clearly describes them as being resistant to smaller injuries and the rule only helps against big ones. Damage 1 weapons are the most efficient way to kill them. Would have been far better served by giving them the same DR nurglings have; 5+ against damage 1. But hey, it happens. There's always future editions.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yeah we will need to see what other things can be worked with that buff the pox walkers or how other units can mesh with them. Like will the medic give out FNP ? Will it work with them ? Will they have supporting strats ? Does Typhus augment them still somehow which you'd imagine he does as that is why he's in the combat patrol box now as well. Do they spread contagions and make their, I am assuming still strength 3 less of a problem ?

Base S3 was confirmed in the special rules article, as their base statline was shown in the second section.

broxus wrote:
Well as others have pointed it on other sites it looks like the Deathshroud keep their 4++. They are keeping their catiphatii armor per the article and didn’t change to relic armor like the loyalists did. The points increase is another clear indication. This is a good indication along with the fact assault terminators gained their 3rd wound and only went up 1pt each. If they don’t have hateful assault or DTTFE as some others believe then it will likely result in a damage nerf and unwarranted points increase. It would have been nice if all attacks hit in a 2+, but for balance reasons I can understand.

4++ isn't confirmed yet.

Even without it and without Hateful Assault and DTTFE, they are already a bargain at 50 points each. DWK are considered busted right now, and they are about equivalent in cost and performance.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Is there a breakdown of the Combat Patrol anywhere? Tried OP and ther last 6-7 pages.

Clarified first post

Spoletta wrote:

broxus wrote:
Well as others have pointed it on other sites it looks like the Deathshroud keep their 4++. They are keeping their catiphatii armor per the article and didn’t change to relic armor like the loyalists did. The points increase is another clear indication. This is a good indication along with the fact assault terminators gained their 3rd wound and only went up 1pt each. If they don’t have hateful assault or DTTFE as some others believe then it will likely result in a damage nerf and unwarranted points increase. It would have been nice if all attacks hit in a 2+, but for balance reasons I can understand.

4++ isn't confirmed yet.

Even without it and without Hateful Assault and DTTFE, they are already a bargain at 50 points each. DWK are considered busted right now, and they are about equivalent in cost and performance.

When compared to the new codex units such as the ones in the SM and BA codexes , they fall behind. Not a great deal at 50pts each and an overall damage nerf. If they lose those special rules that is.

Hopefully there is a strategem to help get thier chatlrges off. The changes to rerolls in 9th has made it very hard to get a successful charge off from deep strike.

What damage nerf?

For what it's worth I'm quietly confident they'll keep the 4++.

I feel like GW have made the design decision to eradicate 3++ except for rare cases. The abundance of storm shields for loyalists meant they had to cap relic terminator armour at 5++.

If Blightlords and Deathshroud end up stack at 2+/5++ considering how durable they are meant to be it'll not sit right when you have so many loyalist marine units running around with 1+ 4++.

The DWK comparison is a good one and if anything supports my stance.
DWK are 3pts less that Deathshroud and have 3 wounds at T4 1+ 4++ but permanent transhuman. They also have 3 damage weapons and no -1 to hit so more resilient and more deadly for cheaper.

If our terminators keep their 4++ it puts them on a similar level to storm shield terminators, the T5 will mitigate some of the vulnerability to small arms that the 1+ loyalist armour save has.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Disgustingly resilient does the opposite of its fluff in game, so that wouldn't even be the worst offender, unfortunately.

With Marines getting W+1 it works perfectly fine representing that resilience if you're not hopelessly hooked on "I need to roll for everything!!!!1!"

Ah yes, the rule with the fluff about it helping them shrug off all but the most grevious of wounds is perfectly represented by doing nothing against the weakest weapons.

Disgustingly Resilient doesn't exist in a vacuum. Plague Marines are also T5 which helps them shrug off wounds from bolters and even heavy bolters.

Rules are abstractions. Don't ask whether Disgustingly Resilient alone represents the toughness of Plague Marines. Ask whether all the rules together do that. I'd say that they do, barring the humble lasgun, which, okay, but who cares they're lasguns. The extra wound is there for that.

Quasistellar wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Disgustingly resilient does the opposite of its fluff in game, so that wouldn't even be the worst offender, unfortunately.

With Marines getting W+1 it works perfectly fine representing that resilience if you're not hopelessly hooked on "I need to roll for everything!!!!1!"

Ah yes, the rule with the fluff about it helping them shrug off all but the most grevious of wounds is perfectly represented by doing nothing against the weakest weapons.

Disgustingly Resilient doesn't exist in a vacuum. Plague Marines are also T5 which helps them shrug off wounds from bolters and even heavy bolters.

Rules are abstractions. Don't ask whether Disgustingly Resilient alone represents the toughness of Plague Marines. Ask whether all the rules together do that. I'd say that they do, barring the humble lasgun, which, okay, but who cares they're lasguns. The extra wound is there for that.

That's fine if that line of fluff was just for Plague Marines as a whole.

It's not though. It's the fluff text of the actual rule itself; what the rule is meant to represent.

Do you want them to remind you that they're also T5 in the fluff trext of the rule?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
T

 NAVARRO wrote:
Doesnt the new PM box still sells 7?

For the same price that other armies get 10 models as well. What a bargain!

Yeah pretty bad! Im still hoping its not 5 or 10 only I mean the fact that the box has 7 would mean that, for you to get say 3 units of 5man, you would need to buy 3 boxes ending up with 21... rather than 30 man on other factions... nuts.

Prices in case it wasn't posted here.

$50 for the miasmic? I'm guessing they mean chosen of Mortarion?
Pox walkers are 36-40, kinda hard to tell, but the Canadian price is more legible

Abaddon303 wrote:
For what it's worth I'm quietly confident they'll keep the 4++.

I feel like GW have made the design decision to eradicate 3++ except for rare cases. The abundance of storm shields for loyalists meant they had to cap relic terminator armour at 5++.

If Blightlords and Deathshroud end up stack at 2+/5++ considering how durable they are meant to be it'll not sit right when you have so many loyalist marine units running around with 1+ 4++.

The DWK comparison is a good one and if anything supports my stance.
DWK are 3pts less that Deathshroud and have 3 wounds at T4 1+ 4++ but permanent transhuman. They also have 3 damage weapons and no -1 to hit so more resilient and more deadly for cheaper.

If our terminators keep their 4++ it puts them on a similar level to storm shield terminators, the T5 will mitigate some of the vulnerability to small arms that the 1+ loyalist armour save has.

Not that this discussion is really useful, since we will know shortly, but just for the sake of discussion, I disagree that they are less resilient and less deadly than a DWK.
T5 and -1 damage count for a lot on a terminator model, and the secondary attack mode puts them on par offensive wise. If they have a 4++, it would make them quite superior to a DWK.

 GaroRobe wrote:


Prices in case it wasn't posted here.

$50 for the miasmic? I'm guessing they mean chosen of Mortarion?
Pox walkers are 36-40, kinda hard to tell, but the Canadian price is more legible

How does someone make an excel page that blurry? Even if they're just snapping a pic of a sheet of paper, they'd have to work to make it that bad.

It's because the image snapshot is of a thumbnail link here on Dakka.

Here it is from the actual link.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Miasmic Malignifier is the terrain piece.

That's like £25 for the ten poxwalkers! You can still get the issue of Conquest they came in on the hachette partworks website for £8 and you get an extra plague marine...

€25,- or £20,- for the Poxwalkers, which is a disappointing increase in price but sadly expected.

I still need to pick up a box or two to diversify my hordes of ETB models I've collected in the past, just not any time soon right now. :(

$60 for the Chosen of Mortarion? Ouch.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
$60 for the Chosen of Mortarion? Ouch.

It's not ouch. It is actually a deal considering that single character clam shells currently go for $35.

Abaddon303 wrote:
That's like £25 for the ten poxwalkers! You can still get the issue of Conquest they came in on the hachette partworks website for £8 and you get an extra plague marine...

Not everywhere can get Conquest.

Price is also better than the Chainrasps were, which was $40 for the same ETB style kit.
Necron Warriors are $45, but they do actually include two different weapon options and Scarabs.

 BrookM wrote:
€25,- or £20,- for the Poxwalkers, which is a disappointing increase in price but sadly expected.

I still need to pick up a box or two to diversify my hordes of ETB models I've collected in the past, just not any time soon right now. :(

Aren't those the same poxwalkers as in DI?

 Jidmah wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
€25,- or £20,- for the Poxwalkers, which is a disappointing increase in price but sadly expected.

I still need to pick up a box or two to diversify my hordes of ETB models I've collected in the past, just not any time soon right now. :(

Aren't those the same poxwalkers as in DI?

The Easy to Build ones are different to the Dark Imperium ones. The ETB ones were designed to supplement the DI ones.

 Jidmah wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
€25,- or £20,- for the Poxwalkers, which is a disappointing increase in price but sadly expected.

I still need to pick up a box or two to diversify my hordes of ETB models I've collected in the past, just not any time soon right now. :(

Aren't those the same poxwalkers as in DI?

Pretty much.

Kinda glad I got DI and Know no Fear twice as well as the cheap 9 pound poxwalkers. Won't have to shell for the price increase.

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
$60 for the Chosen of Mortarion? Ouch.

It's not ouch. It is actually a deal considering that single character clam shells currently go for $35.

It's two recycled DI characters and an Aspiring Champion. Better value relative to other overpriced clampacks does not good value make. Very glad I already own all of these models

No new news today from GW? I expected an article every day for DG.

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
$60 for the Chosen of Mortarion? Ouch.

It's not ouch. It is actually a deal considering that single character clam shells currently go for $35.

Not sure if genuine or sarcasm.

Good job!

broxus wrote:
No new news today from GW? I expected an article every day for DG.

There've been quite a few articles outside of the normal preview window for the Death Guard, which may explain this week being a bit quieter.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
$60 for the Chosen of Mortarion? Ouch.

It's not ouch. It is actually a deal considering that single character clam shells currently go for $35.

Not sure if genuine or sarcasm.

Good job!

in old words:

Why not both?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
$60 for the Chosen of Mortarion? Ouch.

It's not ouch. It is actually a deal considering that single character clam shells currently go for $35.

Not sure if genuine or sarcasm.

Good job!

in old words:

Why not both?

Is it actually good value? Of course not, GW is vastly overpriced.
Is it good value relative to normal GW prices. I think it is a good relative value, yes.

Assuming the Characters are close to worth that absurd price to begin with.

 Jidmah wrote:
What damage nerf?

Gaining an extra attack does not make up for the loss of hateful assault and DTTFE. That is the potential damage nerf. Combats are bloody and Thr vast majority don’t last beyond one round anyways. I’m convinced we lost DTTFE, but am hopeful that we keep hateful assault. Otherwise the Deathshroud took a damage nerf.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Assuming the Characters are close to worth that absurd price to begin with.

they aren't and factions that have looks closeish related units f.e. lords / chose / CSM. are better off learning greenstuff. if not outright searching for alternatives and 3rd parties

broxus wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
What damage nerf?

Gaining an extra attack does not make up for the loss of hateful assault and DTTFE. That is the potential damage nerf. Combats are bloody and Thr vast majority don’t last beyond one round anyways. I’m convinced we lost DTTFE, but am hopeful that we keep hateful assault. Otherwise the Deathshroud took a damage nerf.

We don't know if Hateful Assault is gone to be fair. Someone said they still had Volleys so it would make little sense to lose that. However, with the base A2 they should've had to begin with and the extra AP-1 on their Knives I don't think it's fair to say they lost any damage. If anything they DID gain it, and more consistently to boot.

So almost £80 for 20 poxwalkers, 2 characters and a champion.
You used to get that lot, plus another 6 plague marines, a lord of contagion and a bloat drone plus about 800 points of primaris for that price...

Abaddon303 wrote:
So almost £80 for 20 poxwalkers, 2 characters and a champion.
You used to get that lot, plus another 6 plague marines, a lord of contagion and a bloat drone plus about 800 points of primaris for that price...

Are you talking about the combat patrol box?

If so it's 30 pox walkers, 7 plaguemarines and 2 characters.
Whether you think it's value or not is fair, but at least don't forget almost half the models