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Wow, Terminators are just as bad as Plague Marines almost.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I'm a little confused by the Lord of the Death Guard keyword restriction. Daemon Princes appear to have the keyword. Does that mean you can only take either a DP or a lord in a detachment? Or can you take both? Why do they specifically call out DPs in the second half of the rule?
If you can only take one of either we are severely lacking on the HQ front!

Daemon Prince, Typhus, Chaos Lord, Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour, Lord of Contagion and Lord of Virulence all are Lords of Chaos and have the re-roll ones to hit aura.
The only other HQ options are Malignant Plaguecaster and Sorcerer in Terminator Armor.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

This is confirmed?

Yes.

Wow that's fething awful. Just... just a really crappy choice which takes a dump on players in the name of what? Chapterhouseism?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Mortarion is completely broken at 490 pts: it takes 1785 pts of AM Rapier Laser Destroyer (21 models to be exact with a S10 AP -4 3+D3 Damage) to kill a Mortarion with -1 to hit from DG Psychic Power in one round.
Absolutely insane and ludicrous, betting on a points nerfs in the first FAQ for DG since it actually needs to be well over 600 pts for his profile based on tankyness alone (and I'm not even counting the numerous utility AND damage buffs)

So Morty may very well be overpowered, but it won't be because of how many points it takes to shoot him to death in one turn. That is far too niche a measurement to base judgement on, even if it weren't tied to one specific forge world unit.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

This is confirmed?

Yes.

Wow that's fething awful. Just... just a really crappy choice which takes a dump on players in the name of what? Chapterhouseism?

But hey, look on the bright side! The studio squad of them is actually a legal loadout now when it wasn't throughout all of 8th. Now people apparently have gak for brains so can't work out how to kitbash or that all weapons in a box are not usable at the same time so GW made it so those things aren't a problem! Win/win!
/S (if it wasn't obvious)

So what about running a LoV with Viscous Death Deep strikes in with a squad of Blightlord Terminators with 1 combi flamer, 1 blight launcher, 1 Plague Spewer on the Champion with Viscous Death, 1 Flail, and 1 combi melta. They come in hose stuff with some S6 auto hits, some are buffed by Viscous Death and the LoV's aura for better AP, then charge in with flail and axes to mop up?

Wait, I can have both a blight launcher and a plague spewer now? Finally those models from Felthius Cohort will have a use.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
No DttFE, no universal FNP, in fact only FNP as a WL trait, no 4+ FNP as a WLT anymore, severe limitations on special weapons, severe limitations of HQ's, no granade bombardment strat, no VotLW.
Drones got nerfed, MBH got somewhat buffed even if they lost their smoke. Deadly Pathogens is meh at best, No more Aura of Rust, PM will melt and die like flies (fitingly enough) flies due to all MW running around everywhere.
Good luck trying to build melee DG now! And if the -probably fake- thing about not being able to include other psychers in your army turns out to be true... I hope I don't have to explain that to you.

You are enumerating things that changed. I asked which unit got worse. If you think Foetid Bloat-Drones and Plague Marines are worse than before, then you are assessing their value incorrectly.

What MW list are you referring to? How many MW can it reliably produce per round?


If you haven't done so already, I can recommend this review:
https://www.goonhammer.com/9th-edition-codex-death-guard-the-goonhammer-review/

Bloat drones lost a wound and can't protect chars anymore. Sure, they don't degrade, but I'd rather take a degrading bodyguard for my Daemon princes (well, daemon prince -singular- nowadys. THAT is WAY worse) than soemthing that doesn't degrade. Now, the singular DP has to be played way more cautiously. And no more Supurating Plate for him. And in order for him to survive, we HAVE to take the WLT that gives him the 5+ FNP.
He used to have 3+´armour, 5+ inv (daemon) and 5+ FNP base. BASE. Now, he can't even get 2+ armour (no relic), he has to spend the WL trait on getting a FNP at all and he can't be protected by his drones.
That. Is. worse. Do I need to draw you a map? The -1D is just a slap in the face. And I bet he's gonna go up in price as well. He's already the most expensive DP in the game.

Also, you can't take more than one model with two knives per 5 models. The same is true for axes, maces and flails. And the flails are WAAAAYY worse.
And being forced to take 10 models to get more good weapons means you can take Tallyman with you in the Rhino. And that means Tallyman has no use anymore. So, Tallyman is useless and totally invalidated.

1K sons and Tyranids can do A LOT of MW. And they do. I play against them regurarly.

 l0k1 wrote:
So what about running a LoV with Viscous Death Deep strikes in with a squad of Blightlord Terminators with 1 combi flamer, 1 blight launcher, 1 Plague Spewer on the Champion with Viscous Death, 1 Flail, and 1 combi melta. They come in hose stuff with some S6 auto hits, some are buffed by Viscous Death and the LoV's aura for better AP, then charge in with flail and axes to mop up?

The LoV's aura only triggers on sixes to wound, and plague spewers are just S5 and can't be given to the champion. Trying 9" charges without any help also doesn't work too well.

 Jidmah wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
So what about running a LoV with Viscous Death Deep strikes in with a squad of Blightlord Terminators with 1 combi flamer, 1 blight launcher, 1 Plague Spewer on the Champion with Viscous Death, 1 Flail, and 1 combi melta. They come in hose stuff with some S6 auto hits, some are buffed by Viscous Death and the LoV's aura for better AP, then charge in with flail and axes to mop up?

The LoV's aura only triggers on sixes to wound, and plague spewers are just S5 and can't be given to the champion. Trying 9" charges without any help also doesn't work too well.

Deadly Pathogens adds +1 S to the weapon it's applied too in addition to the effect it grants, which is where I got S6 and Pathogens can be taken by Champions. So as it stands the Champion can't get any weapon upgrades other than combis? I assumed since it said 'One Terminator...' that they could.

 puma713 wrote:
So, I'm pretty frustrated with Games Workshop here. And not for what we know about Plague Marines, but how they misrepresented things in the previews. Their misrepresentation has actually cost people money. For instance, they mistakenly said that Possessed were getting an extra wound. They're only 2 wounds. I know that I am one of many people (at least that I can tell from the Death Guard Facebook group) that have spent money buying kits to come up with a good number of Nurgle Possessed based on what we've been told. Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not. Some people have pre-ordered this model with that knowledge only to find that it is incorrect.

Although this is not egregious enough to be called a bait and switch, it feels that way to the customer. This is just sloppy writing and editing from a company who is known for both, but when even your announcements can't be trusted, you know you've got issues. This is especially true during a time when it is harder to get products and shipping takes longer than normal. It just compounds the frustration.

I think that with this comment I've read 20 times about the legendary third wound on Possesed today. GW never mentioned it (in warhammer community or anywhere else).

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/30/the-most-improved-units-from-codex-death-guard/

T5, DR, 4A, plagued weapons, that's it. For some reason people read 3W and I'm still wondering why, they didn't even hint it.

Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

The third wound was mentioned somewhere, I am pretty sure... I can't find it now, so perhaps the article was updated. I thought it was in the 4th rule preview and was just a single line. But maybe this is all some shared insanity.

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Damage overflow is now a stratagem.

 l0k1 wrote:
Deadly Pathogens adds +1 S to the weapon it's applied too in addition to the effect it grants, which is where I got S6 and Pathogens can be taken by Champions. So as it stands the Champion can't get any weapon upgrades other than combis? I assumed since it said 'One Terminator...' that they could.

Only the regular dudes are "Blightlord Terminators", the champion is a "Blightlord Champion". Model names are defined in the chart on the top part of the datasheet.

 Jidmah wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
Deadly Pathogens adds +1 S to the weapon it's applied too in addition to the effect it grants, which is where I got S6 and Pathogens can be taken by Champions. So as it stands the Champion can't get any weapon upgrades other than combis? I assumed since it said 'One Terminator...' that they could.

Only the regular dudes are "Blightlord Terminators", the champion is a "Blightlord Champion". Model names are defined in the chart on the top part of the datasheet.

True enough. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around a loadout for Blightlord Terminators that is actually worth using lol.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Damage overflow is now a stratagem.

I know. Taking something that a unit or wepaon had naturally as part of it being that unit or weapon and making you pay command points for it is called "nerf".

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Damage overflow is now a stratagem.

I know. Taking something that a unit or wepaon had naturally as part of it being that unit or weapon and making you pay command points for it is called "nerf".

To me it is more of a lateral move as this can now benefit more plague weaponry.

 Kall3m0n wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
No DttFE, no universal FNP, in fact only FNP as a WL trait, no 4+ FNP as a WLT anymore, severe limitations on special weapons, severe limitations of HQ's, no granade bombardment strat, no VotLW.
Drones got nerfed, MBH got somewhat buffed even if they lost their smoke. Deadly Pathogens is meh at best, No more Aura of Rust, PM will melt and die like flies (fitingly enough) flies due to all MW running around everywhere.
Good luck trying to build melee DG now! And if the -probably fake- thing about not being able to include other psychers in your army turns out to be true... I hope I don't have to explain that to you.

You are enumerating things that changed. I asked which unit got worse. If you think Foetid Bloat-Drones and Plague Marines are worse than before, then you are assessing their value incorrectly.

What MW list are you referring to? How many MW can it reliably produce per round?


If you haven't done so already, I can recommend this review:
https://www.goonhammer.com/9th-edition-codex-death-guard-the-goonhammer-review/

Bloat drones lost a wound and can't protect chars anymore. Sure, they don't degrade, but I'd rather take a degrading bodyguard for my Daemon princes (well, daemon prince -singular- nowadys. THAT is WAY worse) than soemthing that doesn't degrade. Now, the singular DP has to be played way more cautiously. And no more Supurating Plate for him. And in order for him to survive, we HAVE to take the WLT that gives him the 5+ FNP.
He used to have 3+´armour, 5+ inv (daemon) and 5+ FNP base. BASE. Now, he can't even get 2+ armour (no relic), he has to spend the WL trait on getting a FNP at all and he can't be protected by his drones.
That. Is. worse. Do I need to draw you a map? The -1D is just a slap in the face. And I bet he's gonna go up in price as well. He's already the most expensive DP in the game.

Drones still protect characters. Only character monster/vehicles need 10 wounds. There was an FAQ to fix the FAQ.

Also the Supurating Plate still exists doesn't it? Can't princes no longer take it?

The princes also dropped in price slightly. So you can give them the 5+++, which admittedly means you're not getting a different trait - id be tempted by the transhuman/ignore ap trait anyway.

With more attacks and strength 8 on the sword, combined with contagions, a prince is still a beat stick. I concede that dual talons is less interesting though.

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Shall I suggest reading the book before complaining?

Flail marines used to have 2d3 attacks when hateful blows were triggered, now they always get six attacks because they now have 2 attacks based and +1A from having two combat weapons, same for the great plague cleaver and power fists. The lost strength is offset by -1 toughness from nurgle's gift, you wound everything on the same roll.

In addition, for 2CP you can have all weapons in a unit gain the old flail ability - not just the flail, but also maces of contagions, great plague cleavers and even a champion's fist.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Damage overflow is now a stratagem.

I know. Taking something that a unit or wepaon had naturally as part of it being that unit or weapon and making you pay command points for it is called "nerf".

To me it is more of a lateral move as this can now benefit more plague weaponry.

Had it been a 0cp strat, then I would have agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Shall I suggest reading the book before complaining?

Flail marines used to have 2d3 attacks when hateful blows were triggered, now they always get six attacks because they now have 2 attacks based and +1A from having two combat weapons, same for the great plague cleaver and power fists. The lost strength is offset by -1 toughness from nurgle's gift, you wound everything on the same roll.

In addition, for 2CP you can have all weapons in a unit gain the old flail ability - not just the flail, but also maces of contagions, great plague cleavers and even a champion's fist.

What in the book could compensate?

Had it been d3 still, they'd have 3-9 attacks. Sure, they'll always get the happy medium, but never 9.
What I hate most though is the lack of trample. Sorry... "Carry-over". One flail wound will ever only kill a maximum of one single model.

shabadoit wrote:
Also the Supurating Plate still exists doesn't it? Can't princes no longer take it?

I just checked and nothing indicates that daemon princes can't take it. Only vehicles and named characters are excluded. You could even upgrade his spitter with a deadly pathogen if you really want to do that.
The only real change to the plate is that it now does a single MW on a 2+ if you have lost a wound, instead of one MW for each successful save on a 4+.

The princes also dropped in price slightly. So you can give them the 5+++, which admittedly means you're not getting a different trait - id be tempted by the transhuman/ignore ap trait anyway.

Suppurating plate plus that trait is going to be a very mean combo, as there will be very few weapons left that can now shot him efficiently.

 Jidmah wrote:

shabadoit wrote:
Also the Supurating Plate still exists doesn't it? Can't princes no longer take it?

I just checked and nothing indicates that daemon princes can't take it. Only vehicles and named characters are excluded. You could even upgrade his spitter with a deadly pathogen if you really want to do that.
The only real change to the plate is that it now does a single MW on a 2+ if you have lost a wound, instead of one MW for each successful save on a 4+.

The princes also dropped in price slightly. So you can give them the 5+++, which admittedly means you're not getting a different trait - id be tempted by the transhuman/ignore ap trait anyway.

Suppurating plate plus that trait is going to be a very mean combo, as there will be very few weapons left that can now shot him efficiently.

Ah ok. My mistake on the plate. It did however get severely nerfed.

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Damage overflow is now a stratagem.

I know. Taking something that a unit or wepaon had naturally as part of it being that unit or weapon and making you pay command points for it is called "nerf".

To me it is more of a lateral move as this can now benefit more plague weaponry.

Had it been a 0cp strat, then I would have agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Shall I suggest reading the book before complaining?

Flail marines used to have 2d3 attacks when hateful blows were triggered, now they always get six attacks because they now have 2 attacks based and +1A from having two combat weapons, same for the great plague cleaver and power fists. The lost strength is offset by -1 toughness from nurgle's gift, you wound everything on the same roll.

In addition, for 2CP you can have all weapons in a unit gain the old flail ability - not just the flail, but also maces of contagions, great plague cleavers and even a champion's fist.

What in the book could compensate?

Had it been d3 still, they'd have 3-9 attacks. Sure, they'll always get the happy medium, but never 9.
What I hate most though is the lack of trample. Sorry... "Carry-over". One flail wound will ever only kill a maximum of one single model.

But they went from having a possible maximum of 6 attacks, to having a guaranteed 6? I don't see how you think that's a nerf? And in situations where you are hitting 1 wound models and think you might have wounds to carry over then 1cp can let you carry over damage. That works for everything including the plague cleaver! It's amazing for 1cp!. Same with the maces. 3 attacks guaranteed regardless of charge/d doing 3 damage each.
I think you maybe need to calm down a little and fully digest the new book. A lot of what you seem to be upset about is in fact not a real issue...

 Kall3m0n wrote:
What in the book could compensate?

Had it been d3 still, they'd have 3-9 attacks. Sure, they'll always get the happy medium, but never 9.

Old codex was 2-6, new codex is 6. That is not a nerf. I suggest stopping this discussion, as you clearly know neither codex nor 9th edition's rules well enough to compare them.

What I hate most though is the lack of trample. Sorry... "Carry-over". One flail wound will ever only kill a maximum of one single model.

I guess you will have to compensate for the two less one wound models you kill on average with the extra wounds you get from knives having AP-1 and better wound rolls now.
In other news, the flail is better against marines now.

Abaddon303 wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Grotrebel wrote:
Yeah basicly we can have all special weapons squads now, just without double dipping in a squad of 5.
Also kinda sad that we get no more squads of 20 Plague Marines but taking ten gives you all the weapon options you want.

10 PM with 2 maces, 2 double knifes, 2 Flails and maybe 2 cleavers sounds like an expensive but fun unit. 250-300 for maximum loadout.
Trench Fighter (1 CP) gives them +1 A, Haze of Corruption (2 CP) gives all of them the old flail effect. Also 3 attacks base if they buy a special cc weapon as they always keep their blade.
This will totally annihilate any horde.
Not to mention all the buffs to hit and wound you can get.

What a book.
This Codex is fantastic.

Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Damage overflow is now a stratagem.

I know. Taking something that a unit or wepaon had naturally as part of it being that unit or weapon and making you pay command points for it is called "nerf".

To me it is more of a lateral move as this can now benefit more plague weaponry.

Had it been a 0cp strat, then I would have agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, the flails are severely nerfed. The wounds don't carry over. And they're only 2 attacks. Not D3. And they've lost 1 str.

Shall I suggest reading the book before complaining?

Flail marines used to have 2d3 attacks when hateful blows were triggered, now they always get six attacks because they now have 2 attacks based and +1A from having two combat weapons, same for the great plague cleaver and power fists. The lost strength is offset by -1 toughness from nurgle's gift, you wound everything on the same roll.

In addition, for 2CP you can have all weapons in a unit gain the old flail ability - not just the flail, but also maces of contagions, great plague cleavers and even a champion's fist.

What in the book could compensate?

Had it been d3 still, they'd have 3-9 attacks. Sure, they'll always get the happy medium, but never 9.
What I hate most though is the lack of trample. Sorry... "Carry-over". One flail wound will ever only kill a maximum of one single model.

But they went from having a possible maximum of 6 attacks, to having a guaranteed 6? I don't see how you think that's a nerf? And in situations where you are hitting 1 wound models and think you might have wounds to carry over then 1cp can let you carry over damage. That works for everything including the plague cleaver! It's amazing for 1cp!. Same with the maces. 3 attacks guaranteed regardless of charge/d doing 3 damage each.
I think you maybe need to calm down a little and fully digest the new book. A lot of what you seem to be upset about is in fact not a real issue...

With the added attack in the new codex, yes. But that's a change to the PM, not the weapon. Had the weapon been the same as the old, it would have been maximum of 9 attacks. The weapon got nerfed, the PM got an attack boost. And you can only have one of each special weapon per 5 models. That means TAllyman is next to useless.
Yeah, the strat is 2cp. Not 1. Do you still think it's amazing?

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Ah ok. My mistake on the plate. It did however get severely nerfed.

No, it didn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
With the added attack in the new codex, yes. But that's a change to the PM, not the weapon. Had the weapon been the same as the old, it would have been maximum of 9 attacks. The weapon got nerfed, the PM got an attack boost. And you can only have one of each special weapon per 5 models. That means TAllyman is next to useless.
Yeah, the strat is 2cp. Not 1. Do you still think it's amazing?

So you are whining about a net buff to a unit because a single weapon got worse?

Oh, "tallyman is next to useless" is just more evidence that you are throwing a tantrum without even having read the codex. I suggest you do that now. Getting that angry without even having a reason to do so is not healthy.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
What in the book could compensate?

Had it been d3 still, they'd have 3-9 attacks. Sure, they'll always get the happy medium, but never 9.

Old codex was 2-6, new codex is 6. That is not a nerf. I suggest stopping this discussion, as you clearly know neither codex nor 9th edition's rules well enough to compare them.

What I hate most though is the lack of trample. Sorry... "Carry-over". One flail wound will ever only kill a maximum of one single model.

I guess you will have to compensate for the two less one wound models you kill on average with the extra wounds you get from knives having AP-1 and better wound rolls now.
In other news, the flail is better against marines now.

Yeah, it's 6 because the weapon profile changed. Had the weapon profile still been D3 attacks, it would have been 3-9 attacks. I know a lot of people think that a solid guaranteed medium is the shizzle, but to a lot of people the chance of getting 9 attacks and risking getting 3 attacks is better than guaranteed 6.

It's great that the flails are better against marines! And I'll be happy for it the one single time per year I play against space marines.

Just realised that GW actually edited the WHC article which said Possessed were going up a wound. Cheeky.

Double post