Codex:Death Guard pre-orders on January 16th (Jan16th: Preorders up, full leak, reviews)

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**Marshal Loss**

puma713 wrote:
Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not.

The Lord of Virulence one is pretty weird because the description for him, both in the codex and on the GW website, explicitly mentions Daemon Engines:

Tubes and pipes erupt in profusion from the Lord of Virulence’s armour. These gout noxious fumes are putrid eruptions whose hue and stench guide the fire of artillery engines behind the lines. In their wake, their flensefrond cloaks leave a trail of sickening mucosal slime for hungry Daemon Engines to follow.

**alextroy**

Re: Plague Marine and Terminator load out options

This seems to be a classic case of careful what you ask for:

Players: This kit doesn't include enough bits to create the perfect unit composition I want. Those money-grubbers at GW are trying to get me to buy multiple kits just for a few bits!

GW: Fine. We've adjusted the unit options to ensure you can build the unit from the available options.

Players:

That's not what we wanted!

**Sarouan**

Marshal Loss wrote:
There's a significant difference between "changing the meta" and completely invalidating a loadout.

Not really, GW did that multiple times before in previous editions.

List building (thus including the way you build your units) was always part of the meta.

And again, it's really specific to terminators with combi-weapons here. Other previous configurations still apply, just with 10 soldiers strong squads instead of 5. It really sucks for them, that's for sure...but honestly, I expected that with the new changes to blightlord terminators.

**Lord Damocles**

Jidmah wrote:
Or, in other words, someone who was intentionally losing every game they play due to horrible list building is now forced to either play better units or ask his opponent for permission.

Sarouan wrote:
The people who are really upset by this change are competitive players who build their units so that everything was optimized with the former rules.

I like that in this thread, I've both been accused of making a deliberately rubbish army, so I should be ok with it being made unplayable; AND I've been accused of being too competetive, so I should be ok with my unit loadouts being made unplayable.

**KurtAngle2**

Mortarion is completely broken at 490 pts: it takes 1785 pts of AM Rapier Laser Destroyer (21 models to be exact with a S10 AP -4 3+D3 Damage) to kill a Mortarion with -1 to hit from DG Psychic Power in one round.
Absolutely insane and ludicrous, betting on a points nerfs in the first FAQ for DG since it actually needs to be well over 600 pts for his profile based on tankyness alone (and I'm not even counting the numerous utility AND damage buffs)

**Sarouan**

Lord Damocles wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Or, in other words, someone who was intentionally losing every game they play due to horrible list building is now forced to either play better units or ask his opponent for permission.

Sarouan wrote:
The people who are really upset by this change are competitive players who build their units so that everything was optimized with the former rules.

I like that in this thread, I've both been accused of making a deliberately rubbish army, so I should be ok with it being made unplayable; AND I've been accused of being too competetive, so I should be ok with my unit loadouts being made unplayable.

Well, no, since the "worst" combo for terminators before was to just take them without options and you can still do that in the new rules.

It's just the limited weapon choices that changed, in the end.

**a_typical_hero**

JNAProductions wrote:
puma713 wrote:
So, I'm pretty frustrated with Games Workshop here. And not for what we know about Plague Marines, but how they misrepresented things in the previews. Their misrepresentation has actually cost people money. For instance, they mistakenly said that Possessed were getting an extra wound. They're only 2 wounds. I know that I am one of many people (at least that I can tell from the Death Guard Facebook group) that have spent money buying kits to come up with a good number of Nurgle Possessed based on what we've been told. Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not. Some people have pre-ordered this model with that knowledge only to find that it is incorrect.

Although this is not egregious enough to be called a bait and switch, it feels that way to the customer. This is just sloppy writing and editing from a company who is known for both, but when even your announcements can't be trusted, you know you've got issues. This is especially true during a time when it is harder to get products and shipping takes longer than normal. It just compounds the frustration.
That's some malarky. I'm happy with the conversion I made, but there's a big difference between 2 wounds and 3 wounds.

What are the odds that 2 wounds is just a typo?

**JNAProductions**

a_typical_hero wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
puma713 wrote:
So, I'm pretty frustrated with Games Workshop here. And not for what we know about Plague Marines, but how they misrepresented things in the previews. Their misrepresentation has actually cost people money. For instance, they mistakenly said that Possessed were getting an extra wound. They're only 2 wounds. I know that I am one of many people (at least that I can tell from the Death Guard Facebook group) that have spent money buying kits to come up with a good number of Nurgle Possessed based on what we've been told. Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not. Some people have pre-ordered this model with that knowledge only to find that it is incorrect.

Although this is not egregious enough to be called a bait and switch, it feels that way to the customer. This is just sloppy writing and editing from a company who is known for both, but when even your announcements can't be trusted, you know you've got issues. This is especially true during a time when it is harder to get products and shipping takes longer than normal. It just compounds the frustration.
That's some malarky. I'm happy with the conversion I made, but there's a big difference between 2 wounds and 3 wounds.

What are the odds that 2 wounds is just a typo?

Hopefully 100%.

**alextroy**

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Mortarion is completely broken at 490 pts: it takes 1785 pts of AM Rapier Laser Destroyer (21 models to be exact with a S10 AP -4 3+D3 Damage) to kill a Mortarion with -1 to hit from DG Psychic Power in one round.
Absolutely insane and ludicrous, betting on a points nerfs in the first FAQ for DG since it actually needs to be well over 600 pts for his profile based on tankyness alone (and I'm not even counting the numerous utility AND damage buffs)

I believe that is known as a feature, not a bug. They don't want you to be able to easily delete the Primarch of the Death Guard from the table in one turn. Sorta like the rules for Ghazghkull and the C'Tan. In this case, rather than giving him a single rule that makes it next to impossible, they just made him really resilient.

**JNAProductions**

alextroy wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Mortarion is completely broken at 490 pts: it takes 1785 pts of AM Rapier Laser Destroyer (21 models to be exact with a S10 AP -4 3+D3 Damage) to kill a Mortarion with -1 to hit from DG Psychic Power in one round.
Absolutely insane and ludicrous, betting on a points nerfs in the first FAQ for DG since it actually needs to be well over 600 pts for his profile based on tankyness alone (and I'm not even counting the numerous utility AND damage buffs)
I believe that is known as a feature, not a bug. They don't want you to be able to easily delete the Primarch of the Death Guard from the table in one turn. Sorta like the rules for Ghazghkull and the C'Tan. In this case, rather than giving him a single rule that makes it next to impossible, they just made him really resilient.

Plus, it takes...

Spoiler:

Now, is that a fair comparison? Depends on whether you think Eradicators are the balance point to aim for. I don't-but some people think they're fine.

**Eldarsif**

Now, is that a fair comparison? Depends on whether you think Eradicators are the balance point to aim for. I don't-but some people think they're fine.

At this point in time I am willing to accept that GW considers Eradicators to be fine which means everything has to be somehow balanced in comparison to them.

**MinMax**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why does the Miasmic Malignifier have a degrading profile?

The only thing that degrades is its Strength. None of its rules use its Strength.

The answer, of course, is "because it has more than 9 wounds".

You have to consider the Knights matchup. A degraded Malignifier is much easier to Death Grip than one at full wounds.

**puma713**

JNAProductions wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
puma713 wrote:
So, I'm pretty frustrated with Games Workshop here. And not for what we know about Plague Marines, but how they misrepresented things in the previews. Their misrepresentation has actually cost people money. For instance, they mistakenly said that Possessed were getting an extra wound. They're only 2 wounds. I know that I am one of many people (at least that I can tell from the Death Guard Facebook group) that have spent money buying kits to come up with a good number of Nurgle Possessed based on what we've been told. Similarly, we were told that the LoV was going to have a focus in supporting Daemon Engines. He does not. Some people have pre-ordered this model with that knowledge only to find that it is incorrect.

Although this is not egregious enough to be called a bait and switch, it feels that way to the customer. This is just sloppy writing and editing from a company who is known for both, but when even your announcements can't be trusted, you know you've got issues. This is especially true during a time when it is harder to get products and shipping takes longer than normal. It just compounds the frustration.
That's some malarky. I'm happy with the conversion I made, but there's a big difference between 2 wounds and 3 wounds.

What are the odds that 2 wounds is just a typo?
Hopefully 100%.

Exactly. Equally as frustrating is that the editing for the codex may be so poor that the wounds characteristic is a typo.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldarsif wrote:
Now, is that a fair comparison? Depends on whether you think Eradicators are the balance point to aim for. I don't-but some people think they're fine.

At this point in time I am willing to accept that GW considers Eradicators to be fine which means everything has to be somehow balanced in comparison to them.

Which is why I'm looking hard at using Mortarion's Anvil rather than the Droning. Turning off rerolls To-Hit and To-Wound will increase the Death Guard army's resilience even further. And, in a pinch, if I need to hamstring their movement with the Droning's warlord trait, I can just use Flash Outbreak.

**Gadzilla666**

If Possessed have the same transport rules as terminators, then they should have the same wounds as terminators.

Edit: Sorry if this has already been mentioned and I missed it, but is daemon summoning still in the codex? I've heard it's gone.

**puma713**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
If Possessed have the same transport rules as terminators, then they should have the same wounds as terminators.

Edit: Sorry if this has already been mentioned and I missed it, but is daemon summoning still in the codex? I've heard it's gone.

Agree on transporting. And you're right, summoning is gone. It is still a rule in the Daemons Codex, so I believe it can still be used, but I think we can assume it is going away in the future of Chaos codices.

**Jidmah**

NAVARRO wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
Um, why are people saying seven man units are gone? There is a 7 man unit of PMs in the combat patrol box. Or is the box illegal for some other reason now then?

I guess not illegal if your ok with having 10 man unit represented as 6,7,8... but as far I could see on the new DEX previews only 5-10 is discriminated while the previous you had 5-7-10-15-20.

The new reboxed PM is also like that Patrol.

Dude, you are just flat wrong on this. 7 is just as legal to play as it was before. You can have 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 plague marines and pay 21 points for every marine.
Oh, and the previous one was exactly the same.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimtuff wrote:
Marshal Loss wrote:
There's a significant difference between "changing the meta" and completely invalidating a loadout.

And also not applying it the same way in the same bloody datasheet! BLTs can still take all axes or swords despite the kit not having enough to equip the whole squad with them. They can still double up on heavy weapons and flails.

Dollars to donuts says the box still has the illegal squad load out on it too.

Well, the one positive thing you can say about this mess is that no matter how you build the boxes, you will end up with a legal unit. Outside of that... yeah, I'm glad I didn't buy any plasma bits and just went with all bolters for my blightlords.
Not that worried about plague marines though, for the squads of 7 I just need to switch a blight launcher for a plasma guy to turn 4 illegal squads into 4 legal ones. The squads of 10 with up to 6 special weapons also feels silly awesome.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
If Possessed have the same transport rules as terminators, then they should have the same wounds as terminators.

Edit: Sorry if this has already been mentioned and I missed it, but is daemon summoning still in the codex? I've heard it's gone.

No traces of it, but the actual summoning rules are in Codex: Daemons and as long as they stay there, DG can keep summoning daemons. You just have no more stratagem or relic support to make it easier.

**shabadoit**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Possibly too late to help some. But.....

Hachette have have a re-stock of Conquest, so a bunch of DG characters can now be had for £7.99 a pop. Amongst other goodies. Suffice to say if you want DG, the following link might help bag some bargains.

https://hachettepartworks.com/en-en/warhammer-40k-conquest/?p=4

Poxwalker sprue is available, chosen sprue is gone though

**l0k1**

The biggest problem I have with the way Blightlords load out works now is that they've taken one of our best anti tank options, and in the process kinda left them in a role where they're not really great at anything other than soaking wounds. I can see maybe dropping a squad in with a plague spewer and combi flamer to clear screens, but is that really worth it? Their cc weapons are fine, but why not take Deathshrouds instead?

**Voss**

Jidmah wrote:Well, the one positive thing you can say about this mess is that no matter how you build the boxes, you will end up with a legal unit

Not... actually true.
My icon of despair model doesn't have the now absolutely _mandatory_ boltgun (he was for the melee unit and could be built with 2 plague knives in the old codex).

I also can't put together my six special weapons (for 14 models) in a way that works with the new rules. I wanted plague belchers and meltaguns particularly, and those don't overlap the 'right way.' The only out is disassembly or buying more.

**Eldarsif**

l0k1 wrote:
The biggest problem I have with the way Blightlords load out works now is that they've taken one of our best anti tank options, and in the process kinda left them in a role where they're not really great at anything other than soaking wounds. I can see maybe dropping a squad in with a plague spewer and combi flamer to clear screens, but is that really worth it? Their cc weapons are fine, but why not take Deathshrouds instead?

This problem also kinda existed in 8th. It's why I think Contemptor Dreadnoughts were kinda popular with people

**Gadzilla666**

puma713 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
If Possessed have the same transport rules as terminators, then they should have the same wounds as terminators.

Edit: Sorry if this has already been mentioned and I missed it, but is daemon summoning still in the codex? I've heard it's gone.

Agree on transporting. And you're right, summoning is gone. It is still a rule in the Daemons Codex, so I believe it can still be used, but I think we can assume it is going away in the future of Chaos codices.

Yeah, it'll probably disappear from the 9th edition Daemons codex. Sucks for Word Bearers.

So I see Death Guard have their own version of the Power of the Machine Spirit strategem, which means their Land Raiders have the MACHINE SPIRIT keyword, and the other Legions will probably get the same. So I guess I have to start emailing gw to get a DAEMONIC MACHINE SPIRIT keyword added to all of our fw vehicles that should have it. Again. Less than a year since they finally fixed that discrepancy. *sigh*

**Slayer-Fan123**

l0k1 wrote:
The biggest problem I have with the way Blightlords load out works now is that they've taken one of our best anti tank options, and in the process kinda left them in a role where they're not really great at anything other than soaking wounds. I can see maybe dropping a squad in with a plague spewer and combi flamer to clear screens, but is that really worth it? Their cc weapons are fine, but why not take Deathshrouds instead?

The shooting from Blightlords is significantly better and they're cheaper. You're right that the direct comparison makes Blightlords look less appealing though. They don't have multi-damage melee off the top of my head, do they?

**Abaddon303**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
l0k1 wrote:
The biggest problem I have with the way Blightlords load out works now is that they've taken one of our best anti tank options, and in the process kinda left them in a role where they're not really great at anything other than soaking wounds. I can see maybe dropping a squad in with a plague spewer and combi flamer to clear screens, but is that really worth it? Their cc weapons are fine, but why not take Deathshrouds instead?

The shooting from Blightlords is significantly better and they're cheaper. You're right that the direct comparison makes Blightlords look less appealing though. They don't have multi-damage melee off the top of my head, do they?

Only with the flail.

I'm a little confused by the Lord of the Death Guard keyword restriction. Daemon Princes appear to have the keyword. Does that mean you can only take either a DP or a lord in a detachment? Or can you take both? Why do they specifically call out DPs in the second half of the rule?
If you can only take one of either we are severely lacking on the HQ front!

**Voss**

Abaddon303 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
l0k1 wrote:
The biggest problem I have with the way Blightlords load out works now is that they've taken one of our best anti tank options, and in the process kinda left them in a role where they're not really great at anything other than soaking wounds. I can see maybe dropping a squad in with a plague spewer and combi flamer to clear screens, but is that really worth it? Their cc weapons are fine, but why not take Deathshrouds instead?

The shooting from Blightlords is significantly better and they're cheaper. You're right that the direct comparison makes Blightlords look less appealing though. They don't have multi-damage melee off the top of my head, do they?

Only with the flail.

I'm a little confused by the Lord of the Death Guard keyword restriction. Daemon Princes appear to have the keyword. Does that mean you can only take either a DP or a lord in a detachment? Or can you take both? Why do they specifically call out DPs in the second half of the rule?
If you can only take one of either we are severely lacking on the HQ front!

Yep. You can take a single 'Lord of the DG' character and 1+ Plaguecasters/Sorcerers in Terminator armor. There are no other options (beyond breaking detachment purity or taking more detachments)

General chaos marines may have to fear this as well, but at least there are Sorcerers, Apostles, Discos, Master of Executions, and Warpsmiths for them to be a bit picky.

**Eldarain**

Won't be at all surprised if those who threw off the shackles of Doctrine and Dogma will end up with far less freedom in unit and loadout selection.

**puma713**

Marshal Loss wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

This is confirmed?

**Voss**

So, what's the reaction to the 'overcast' psychic powers? (Beating the WC by 3 or more for an increased effect)

I'm a little surprised by it, if only because loyalist SM didn't get it, and it seems a shift in the psychic power paradigm (other than Smite, of course).

Plague Wind is pretty nasty for shifting to a MW on 5+ rather than 6 if you cast on 9+ (and you still roll for every model in the unit).

**Marshal Loss**

puma713 wrote:
Marshal Loss wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
How do the options look for Blightlord Terminators? They only have one kombi- special weapon in the kit but could all equip them ruleswize, how is it now? Would be an indicator for future choices even more so than the Plague Marines I'd say, especially for Chaos Terminators.

1 combi-flamer per 5
1 combi-melta per 5
1 combi-plasma per 5
1 Blight Launcher or Reaper Autocannon per 5
1 Plague Spewer per 5
1 Flail per 5

This is confirmed?

Yes.

**Brutus_Apex**

Great, my entire army is illegal now because they decided to feth with the weapon load out options on Plague Marines and Terminators. I'm actually really pissed off now.

**Jidmah**

Voss wrote:
Jidmah wrote:Well, the one positive thing you can say about this mess is that no matter how you build the boxes, you will end up with a legal unit

Not... actually true.
My icon of despair model doesn't have the now absolutely _mandatory_ boltgun (he was for the melee unit and could be built with 2 plague knives in the old codex).

The instructions tell you that the model with the the sigil (it's no longer an icon) is supposed to be build with a boltgun though, and the other build is the one double-knife guy you can have now.

I'm not saying it's great, you just can't feth up your unit by following the instructions anymore. You could before.

I also can't put together my six special weapons (for 14 models) in a way that works with the new rules. I wanted plague belchers and meltaguns particularly, and those don't overlap the 'right way.' The only out is disassembly or buying more.

Model-wise plague belchers and meltaguns are mutually exclusive. The new weapon options are essentially the instruction manual of the plague marine box turned into rules.