cranect wrote: You can take any relic from either book. Just look under orkimedes kustom gubbins in the new book and it is very clear you can take either in the new detachments. It says in addition to the codex relics they can take the custom gubbins.
This is only if you take a detachment or formation from the new book though, and it only applies to those formations and detachments
slip wrote: Can a painmob formation be taken as an ally with a list that has Zhadsnark as it's warlord?
Negative. Because Zhadsnarks rule is a army wide thing, it means that even if its in a different detachment or formation from Zhadsnark its still in the same army.
cranect wrote: You can take any relic from either book. Just look under orkimedes kustom gubbins in the new book and it is very clear you can take either in the new detachments. It says in addition to the codex relics they can take the custom gubbins.
This is only if you take a detachment or formation from the new book though, and it only applies to those formations and detachments
Right. Here's how I remember it:
Source A: Codex: Orks
Source B: Waaagh! Ghazghkull
If you take any formation compatible with A, then you can take relics from A. (includes formations in C:O, CAD, Unbound, etc.)
If you take a formation from B, then you can take relics from A and B in that formation.
This is actually less restrictive than the previous edition of W!G (hardcover), when you couldn't take relics from A. The obvious choice here being Da Lukky Stick. It's still not ideal, but that's the bone that GW has thrown us.
Played a 2000 point game last night against IG/AM.
I ran a new list:
Bully Boyz in Blitz Brigade with a full unit of Burnas and Tankbustas in the other two BW's. I also ran a Painboy with the TB's and Burnas. Grots for CAD.
Opponent had a formation of 4 Tauraxes with Stormtroopers inside. A formation of LR's and some foot troops.
He conceded top of third turn. The 12" scout move is unbelievable for getting everything in range. It was fun and quick. Try it out!
cranect wrote: You can take any relic from either book. Just look under orkimedes kustom gubbins in the new book and it is very clear you can take either in the new detachments. It says in addition to the codex relics they can take the custom gubbins.
This is only if you take a detachment or formation from the new book though, and it only applies to those formations and detachments
Right. Here's how I remember it:
Source A: Codex: Orks
Source B: Waaagh! Ghazghkull
If you take any formation compatible with A, then you can take relics from A. (includes formations in C:O, CAD, Unbound, etc.)
If you take a formation from B, then you can take relics from A and B in that formation.
This is actually less restrictive than the previous edition of W!G (hardcover), when you couldn't take relics from A. The obvious choice here being Da Lukky Stick. It's still not ideal, but that's the bone that GW has thrown us.
this just isnt true, go and read page 52, it says that if you take a detachment or formation from B then you can take relics from A and B, but the codex doesnt say anything to the same effect?
cranect wrote: You can take any relic from either book. Just look under orkimedes kustom gubbins in the new book and it is very clear you can take either in the new detachments. It says in addition to the codex relics they can take the custom gubbins.
This is only if you take a detachment or formation from the new book though, and it only applies to those formations and detachments
Right. Here's how I remember it:
Source A: Codex: Orks
Source B: Waaagh! Ghazghkull
If you take any formation compatible with A, then you can take relics from A. (includes formations in C:O, CAD, Unbound, etc.)
If you take a formation from B, then you can take relics from A and B in that formation.
This is actually less restrictive than the previous edition of W!G (hardcover), when you couldn't take relics from A. The obvious choice here being Da Lukky Stick. It's still not ideal, but that's the bone that GW has thrown us.
this just isnt true, go and read page 52, it says that if you take a detachment or formation from B then you can take relics from A and B, but the codex doesnt say anything to the same effect?
Yep if you take a detachment/formation from W!G then you can take relics from either book. If you take a CAD or a detachment from the codex orks then you are limited to the codex relics.
slip wrote: Can a painmob formation be taken as an ally with a list that has Zhadsnark as it's warlord?
Negative. Because Zhadsnarks rule is a army wide thing, it means that even if its in a different detachment or formation from Zhadsnark its still in the same army.
Does this mean I can take ork warbikes as a troop choice in an allied list than? Since it's a army wide rule.
only if it is an ork detachment, a CAD or allied detachment only allows you to choose from one faction.
edit:
Speed Freek Warboss
Note that Zhadsnark is not intended for use in an Ork
Dread Mob army. Instead he should be used as a HQ choice in an army selected from Codex: Orks.
In fact, you are not allowed to take allies, your army has to be selected from Codex: Orks (so also no waaagh! detachments?)
Woo, Orks iz da Best! (even if we don't get fun new psyker powers that let us make "floating castles" )
Anyway...
Soliciting opinions from the Warbosses out there:
What makes for a better "chaff" unit versus Necrons -- Ork Boyz or Gretchin?
General consensus seems to be that you're better off tying up units of Necron Warriors in assault than trying to out-shoot them, with the understanding that the unit will be a tarpit for the rest of the game. Is there any advantage to shoveling Grots at Warriors instead of Boyz? What about against Destroyers in assault?
Cleatus wrote: Woo, Orks iz da Best! (even if we don't get fun new psyker powers that let us make "floating castles" )
Anyway...
Soliciting opinions from the Warbosses out there:
What makes for a better "chaff" unit versus Necrons -- Ork Boyz or Gretchin? General consensus seems to be that you're better off tying up units of Necron Warriors in assault than trying to out-shoot them, with the understanding that the unit will be a tarpit for the rest of the game. Is there any advantage to shoveling Grots at Warriors instead of Boyz? What about against Destroyers in assault?
Boyz are a much, much better option. Grotz majority T2 makes them get cut down by necron warriors far too easily compared to Orks, as Necrons will hit on 3's and wound on 2's with you not having an armour save. Even with the squighound upgrade for the runtherd you're likely to lose combat by at least 3-5 given that your grots wound only on 6's and unless you have a stompa nearby you'll break pretty easily. Boyz have it much better, especially with a painboy in the unit, as Necron warriors only have 1 attack each so its unlikely they'll get through a decent sized mob anytime soon. Similarly, destroyers are better tied up by boyz but optimally you want to send in Meganobz after either unit since they can actually do decent damage while taking little if any in return thanks to 2W and 2+ save.
Yeah. The one time I played necrons (not much variety at my FLGS) I was able to tie up most of his standard 'crons with a mob of 20-ish boys (after casualties), though I couldn't really kill him that quickly, either. Definitely send in boyz. Honestly, gretchin are really only useful as roadbumps in front of lootas or mek guns, or to hold objectives.
In the thread linked below, I asked whether or not the KFF affected all models or just friendly models. DeathReaper presented a hell of an argument (psychic powers were even brought up) and we never got to a clear conclusion as to whether or not enemy models were included too.
Well it does say all models.It gets a little fuzzy with some of the ally rules saying they can't benefit from each other's abilities, but I'd say they'd get the 5++ too because of the specific wording of the KFF.
Besides, this means they're at least 6" of the ork army in the ork shooting phase with charges being declared next, both armies have bigger issues than a 5++ vs ork shooting to worry about.
It's like how the old Repair Tools rule the Meks had didn't say "Friendly vehicles" or even "Damaged Vehicles"- so a Mek in b2b contact with an enemy, undamaged vehicle could attempt to 'repair' it, get over-enthusiastic, and give it the Shaken status. I don't think that rule survived with that wording, though.
thenewgozoku wrote: Does anyone have any idea for good formations to get as allies for the orks and boost our army without losing much flavor?
Mayhem pack looks good for deepstriking meltas.
was thinking of taking the eldar crimson death formation and getting orking up the units with massive exhausts, metal plates etc. gives the best anti air in the game and can help us pop tanks turn 2 to assault whatever we want and clear the potentially hart to reach units ont he other side of the table.
Swampmist wrote: The new renegade knight with diuble ranged weapons are Allies Of Convenience for Orks (they count as CSM for the ally chart,) so there's that.
Good use for a Gorkanaut to have it act as a counts as Chaos Knight.
Waaagh 18 wrote: It is obvious to any observer that the Ork codex doesn't have any super OP spammable units that usually make codexes top tier.
This is exactly what's wrong with 40k. It's not the game, it's the gamers. "Wow, let me rush out and buy a 500 quid army so I can play against a bunch of spammers, because THE WORLD NEEDS MORE SPAM."
Waaagh 18 wrote: It is obvious to any observer that the Ork codex doesn't have any super OP spammable units that usually make codexes top tier.
This is exactly what's wrong with 40k. It's not the game, it's the gamers. "Wow, let me rush out and buy a 500 quid army so I can play against a bunch of spammers, because THE WORLD NEEDS MORE SPAM."
Nah its the game. Decurion is crazy powerful and its basically a "take basically anything in this list and you will be a lot stronger than majority of the other factions". A person fielding Decurion isn't min/maxing to get all the benefits and could take whatever they want and still be successful in casual games. Eldar, Tau, Necrons don't really have to try to be crazy powerful compared to say Dark Eldar, Orks, Nids, etc. At least space marines have to try and work the system to min/max something that is competitive. Sure the players push the envelope to the extremes but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the Eldar codex and the Dark Eldar codex are not even in the same ball park in terms of power.
I'm confused. At which point are gamers forced to take specialist formations, or eight greater daemons? What prevents them from using the models they enjoy to have a fun game? The 40K rulebook insists we forge a narrative, I haven't seen anything which says "Take these combos for instant win because it's FUN"?
Formations (the strongest ones) push things further away from the base line but many formations do offer some very fluffy ways to play an army. Playing a Battle Company can very much be Forging the Narrative by playing "the valiant Ultramarines fighting in the defense of the Imperium from the foul xenos threat" or it could be somebody trying to compete at a tournament. Even without formations somebody wanting to play a Saim-Hann inspired army with lots of jetbikes could very much be playing a narrative focused list or all those jet bikes could be an attempt to roflstomp kids.
Even if we just randomly put down units for an army list there is still going to be massive imbalance issues. A randomly selected assortment of Eldar models is still going to be a much more effective army than doing the same random selection process for Dark Eldar or Orks. I get that we end up with stuff like Draigo Centstars because people are working the system to maximize their army power but there is still a massive divide between the relative power level of Orks or Tyranids compared to the relative power of Necrons or Eldar.
Gamers aren't forced to do anything but a person bringing a bunch of Killa Kans, boyz on foot, and kommandos is going to have a REALLY bad time trying to play against a Tau player who brings...... basically anything.
It's the difference between those who are more interested in the 'winning a game' aspect of having fun, and those who are into the 'forge a narrative' aspect. I'm one of the latter, but the issue there is that there's less push to buy new stuff or even play the game by the rules at all.
going back to the renegade knight discussion, I am actually pretty excited to use a gork/mork kit for a count as knight. What loadouts would cater to Orks the best? Im thinking the battle cannon/storm spear rockets/D weapon, or dual avenger gatling cannons? What are some other thoughts?
I would go for more dakka, kit it out with all da gunz. Let the stomps do the melee, and let the tankbustas handle the enemy SH and GMC in assault.
This whole Renegade knight thing has gotten me excited for the future of the game. In one expert move gw has instantly boosted the power of csm and orks. While not directly an ork unit, the fact that the gmorkanauts are so close to size of knights will inspire the sale of said products (I'm even considering getting one now).
Depends on what you want to do, really. It can be excellent as a rear guard and fire platform, but I'd still probably kit mine out for melee and send it charging forwards. Make everything hit them at once.
This is making me seriously want to pick up the gork.morkanaut kit. Ive always kind of liked the clunky design of it, and with both gun arms you don't even need to convert them unless you want to, because both gun arms can be convincing "count as" any of the knights' guns. even better, the morkanauts KFF is the "ion shield".
FlashyGit wrote: This is making me seriously want to pick up the gork.morkanaut kit. Ive always kind of liked the clunky design of it, and with both gun arms you don't even need to convert them unless you want to, because both gun arms can be convincing "count as" any of the knights' guns. even better, the morkanauts KFF is the "ion shield".
The Meks call the Ion Shield "Da Derektunal Dakka Stoppa"
slip wrote: Is it just me or do ork stompas look like they're wearing dresses?
If the stompas are supposed to be crafted as effigies of Gork and Mork in their image.... somewhere out in the warp there exists a massive, clumsy half wit ballerina beating the gak out of things.
Tried out Kommandos for the first time yesterday. I used a unit of 8 together with Snikrot, a Nob with Big choppa and 2 rokkits. Now this loadout worked quite all right, but what are the thoughts on the best loadout, do you prefer burnas and a PK nob?
I would go burnas if I had to take kommandos. They don't rely on ork BS of 2, better in overwatch, PW... They get a lot of versatility. Big choppa is probably fine enough here, he can eat challenges for Snikrot so it's better to keep him cheap.
Kommandos are really interesting. When with snikrot, I've found that double burnas are, while very expensive, very good at roasting people who are too close to the edges. I tend to think of the extra points as being worth it for a safe delivery method with the outflanking, and also it's great to have some AP3 for close combat encounters. I've never used rokkits or big shootas on these guys to be honest. They only have a BS of two, and I'd rather put my anti-tank bets on more reliable-ish methods.
Lately I've been using a small squad of them with a BCBP nob, and a couple of big shootas. They infiltrate onto an objective in cover (even on my side) and sit there for the whole game. Their stealth, provided with the natural cover means that shooting at them is largely pointless (Usually a 2+ cover save if I go to ground). And they are capable of counter charging if need be. Otherwise, they just pelt the enemy with some snap shots and be a general nuisance for cheap.
Now if you want to try out snikrot's formation (which is loads of fun), I suggest that you do not run any extra shooty guys, as you need to not shoot that first turn to get a rerollable cover save (which is awesome). But defiantly give each squad a nob with at least a BC, and a BP.
In all of 6th and some of 7th I've taken 5 with two Big Shootas to just be a distraction for Linebreaker.
I'm sure there are better options for Linebreaker (particularly as 3 x 6 Tankbustas is popular) but it let me field my nicely painted models and I've always had a soft spot in my heart for Kommandos.
I would never take Burnas. They cost just too much. I guess if you did 2, a Nob w/ PK and Snikrot and hoped for the best on that assault it would be okay?
Honestly I wouldn't even run kommandos myself, exactly because the cost issue. If I were, I might as well pay a little more to optimize them for their role. I see them seizing objectives early and holding as long as possible. Burnas help clear out infantry behind cover. (A lot if not most objective are in ruins.) The improved over watch helps them hold it. Power weapons give a bonus vs MEQs, which are the most common enemy to face and the templates help vs other horde like AM/ Renegades/ Tyranids.
Cost wise, I'd be able to do the same thing even better with the Bossboy formation giving +D3 units outfflank+acute senses. Give him finking Kap and roll twice on strategic traits for a good chance at +D3 infiltrate to boot. Your choice too, not restricted to what statistically is a minimum boyz squad.
Kommandoes are invaluable in my lists. As it's quite possible to meet armies like ravenwing that auto-win with a full army scout in maelstorm unless you can get koptas scout first. But even a unit of kommandoes can save you. It's still an uphill battle but at least not an auto-loose.
I prefer a unit of 5 with either 2 rokkits or bigshootas. Switching to bigshootas lately.
koooaei wrote: Kommandoes are invaluable in my lists. As it's quite possible to meet armies like ravenwing that auto-win with a full army scout in maelstorm unless you can get koptas scout first. But even a unit of kommandoes can save you. It's still an uphill battle but at least not an auto-loose.
I prefer a unit of 5 with either 2 rokkits or bigshootas. Switching to bigshootas lately.
First and foremost, I've won twice against ravenwing.
Second, I have been able to use kommandos to hold objectives, but that's about it.
I've had so much wasted time with them. If I'm running a trukk heavy list with 5-6 trukks of boyz and meganobz and also warbikers on top I'm beginning to question the validity of them. It can make a difference of 25-30 points which is another rokkit buggy or deffkopta which can be more valuable in a game.
I've had so much wasted time with them. If I'm running a trukk heavy list with 5-6 trukks of boyz and meganobz and also warbikers on top I'm beginning to question the validity of them. It can make a difference of 25-30 points which is another rokkit buggy or deffkopta which can be more valuable in a game.
I do. I would have taken them when they re-rolled Ld, I take them now. Mob Rule is the worst rule in existance.
Heck, I almost always take a Great Waaagh! for the Big Bosspole.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anvildude wrote: Just to derail a little- The Fist of Gork is a Sigmar model, right?
Yes. But it's the sort of model I want anyway, lol. He can be my new Warboss on Bike.
Yeah, take boss poles. They're only five points and give us an extra chance to not run away. Hell, in the game I played today I had a tankbusta nob not run away because I rolled right for the bosspole reroll. Granted, he didn't do anything after that roll, but at least my opponent had to dedicate a squad to killing him.
thenewgozoku wrote: Boss poles are overcosted and not must in my opinion especially if you have "da boss is watching"
Now that we get a new weirdboy figure I have a question, have anyone tried weirdboyz?
If you have "Da Boss is Watching" then you don't need BPs as that +2 to the chart completely hoses you if your less than 10 models while if you have more than 10 your generally fine (except taking a lot of hits). For non Ghazzy Orks the BP is well worth it imo. Can't count the number of times that a reroll on the Mob Rule table kept my a unit in the fight or even landed me a 1 result in close combat so I didn't need to take extra hits to my unit.
As for Weirdboyz I think they are a ton of fun but not a very competitive unit if only because its really hard to fit them into your army (lack of free HQ slots and if you had a free slot then why aren't you taking a Painboy). All the powers except for Da Krunch and Eadbanger (this one being THE WORST psychic power in the game) are good for a witchfire heavy psychic "school" and the Weirdboy generates an extra dice for being around other Orks which is nice when you need to squeeze out that 2nd power but you rolled low for warp charges that turn.
I usualy take bosspoles and they help sometimes. That said I ran a Ghazcurion today andi it's just great to not have to take leadership test. Just fearless, all the units. Realy refreshing, a shame that we can't do so without the Council.
First and foremost, I've won twice against ravenwing.
Second, I have been able to use kommandos to hold objectives, but that's about it.
For me it's one of the hardest battles. I have a lot of footsloggas. And the dude's running lib conclave so i can do basically nothing in battle. Cause can't outshoot, can't catch and can't outfight due to psy buffs. So, my only hope is outscore which is also close to impossible if they scout around the whole field.
And i'm not telling about running big units as it's not worth it in more or less competitive games, unfortunately. Just min squads to infiltrate, score and shoot. Kommandoes also provide some nice melee punch against weak enemies that get too close. They're still boyz.
As for Weirdboyz I think they are a ton of fun but not a very competitive unit if only because its really hard to fit them into your army (lack of free HQ slots and if you had a free slot then why aren't you taking a Painboy). All the powers except for Da Krunch and Eadbanger (this one being THE WORST psychic power in the game) are good for a witchfire heavy psychic "school" and the Weirdboy generates an extra dice for being around other Orks which is nice when you need to squeeze out that 2nd power but you rolled low for warp charges that turn.
I'd love to take weirdboyz more often, but they're just not good enough. The powers they get access to are meh at best. Plus, the last two times I've fielded mine, he's periled, rolled a 1, failed leadership, and instantly died turn one without any power going off.
The problem with Weirdboys is not their powers, but their lack of any options. Librarians can change armour, get bikes, choose different weapons. Farseers can take jetbikes and also choose weapons. The Weirdboy can't even take a freaking bosspole. If he could get a bike he would be much more usefull and survivable. But no, GW doen't think so.Orks don't need good psykers. They might threaten dem pansies and dem ticanz.
Now that we get a new weirdboy figure I have a question, have anyone tried weirdboyz?
I've said it before in this thread I think but I love taking 3-4 weirdboyz in a footslogging maxed squad of ardboyz. Each one gets an extra warp charge and I take Malefic on all of them. Summon away! They will pretty much auto perils but if you get possession it is really fluffy funny to plop a Bloodthirster down turn 1 and watch it soak up enemy fire or wreck face in turn 3. Not to mention the benefits of summoning daemonettes or plaguebearers. Greater daemon for a 70pt weirdboy is bargain!
Lots of people have also had success with using sanctic.
So yeah anyone else try these kinda ork lists? What was your experience with them? I know I really like the Blitz Brigade formation, but I am not sure if it would be as good with normal boyz and such in them instead of the big boyz.
Iam trying sum thing different the next time I go to a "unlimited amount of detachment' tournament (1850).
MOGROK FORMATION
- Warboss + Mega armor + Lucky stikk + bosspole
- Big Mek (Mogrok) + mega armor + thinking capp + combi skorcha
- Big Mek + Bike + big choppa + combi skorcha
- Big Mek + Bike + big choppa + combi skorcha
- Weirdboy + level 2 upgrade
THRAKA DETACHMENT
- Big Mek + Bike + big choppa + combi skorcha + Big Kustom Force Field (4+ inv)
- Warboss + bike + power claw + combi skorcha + Big bosspole (fearless)
- 10 grots + runtherd
- 5 commando's
- All characters join the loota's.
- Weirdboyz go full Daemonology sanctic powers
- Mega armor warboss on the front with a reroll 2+/3+ (sanctuary)
- weirdboyz can teleport closer and give the unit hammerhand + force.
- Bikes can also detach at any time
-loota's can shoot after teleport (slow and purposeful)
Its one big deathstar that could even take on the thunderwolfstar.
I posted a great weirdboyz deathstar list a while back in this topic. When you use weirdboyz you go all the way!
We played a quick 3 game 600 point mini-tournament on our league night last Thursday. It was centered around the new vehicle based Tank Shock system.
MAKFF BM with Killsaw, BP, and DLS. Twice he rolled a six on the personal traits table and hot Fearless and ITND. Also ran a Painboy so the BM had a rerollable 2+ armor save, 5++ Inv against shooting, FNP, and gain back wounds on a 5+.
He took one wound over three games and got it back that turn. He also fixed a weapon destroyed result (he has no guns due to the Killsaw so why not?). Guy was a beast and easily my MVP.
Also ran 13 Tankbustas which went in a Battlewagon with RR, 4 Rokkits, and a Kannon. 2 min squads of Grots for CAD.
It was announced when we started all three games would be old fashioned kill points.
1st game was against demons. He had a huge MC warlord with two axes, one was fleshbane and the other armourbane. Two units of T3 stabby demons with Str 5 AP 3 weapons, and the Walker Minotaur demon with the klaw and some lame ass shooty weapon.
I deployed at 12", moved back 6", fired everything, repeated for 3 turns until he caught up and exploded my wagon with the little stabby guys on some lucky rolls. I mopped up remains and tabled him.
2nd game was against Space Wolves and wolfen. Exact same tactic and I almost tabled him except for his twin linked las predator way in the back. We played on 4 x 4' boards BTW. Lost my BW again but still won easily.
Third game was against Eldar. He had 3 units of Bikes with a large unit of warp spiders and his HQ attached. Also had a night spinner which was his MVP. Thing is redonkculous for 100 points.
Anywho he got first turn and knew what I did to win the previous two games. He moves all three units of Bikes as far forward as possible to attempt glance my BW along with the Warp Spiders with attached HQ to assault it next turn? I lost the BW in both games to assaults so makes sense.
So of course I move up the BW and jump everyone out the Full 6" in an attempt to multi-assault most of his army.
The warp spiders are 4" away and two units of bikes about 2" away. I try to remember something about warp spiders but can't because I'm salivating at the idea of this epic multi-assault!
I fire at the Warpspiders and they jump back!!!!! Of Fudge! That's why I shouldn't have shot at them. I kill enough to cause them Ld test in the shooting phase and now they're 10.5" away!!! Thankfully no intervening terrain. I need an 11" charge other wise my biggest unit will die in the opp's shooting phase.
Pray to Gork and Mork:
I roll a 5 and a 6!
I end up winning combat by a large margin, causing the both units of bikes to fall back 3D6 but neither off the table. He regroups both but can only snap fire. I have my TB's all within the 6" radius of the KFF and have FNP against Str 6 and less weapons. His third bike squad assaults a unit of Grots and wipes them. Night spinner immobilizes my BW :(
On my turn I assault and wipe remaining bike squads, two with my TB's and HQ's and the third one when my second grot squad charges his third bike unit!! I get extra attacks and he gets one per model. End of game all he has is his night spinner in my DZ.
Out of 8 players I'm the only one with 3 victories. Go Orks!
So yeah anyone else try these kinda ork lists? What was your experience with them? I know I really like the Blitz Brigade formation, but I am not sure if it would be as good with normal boyz and such in them instead of the big boyz.
Iam trying sum thing different the next time I go to a "unlimited amount of detachment' tournament (1850).
MOGROK FORMATION
- Warboss + Mega armor + Lucky stikk + bosspole
- Big Mek (Mogrok) + mega armor + thinking capp + combi skorcha
- Big Mek + Bike + big choppa + combi skorcha
- Big Mek + Bike + big choppa + combi skorcha
- Weirdboy + level 2 upgrade
THRAKA DETACHMENT
- Big Mek + Bike + big choppa + combi skorcha + Big Kustom Force Field (4+ inv)
- Warboss + bike + power claw + combi skorcha + Big bosspole (fearless)
- 10 grots + runtherd
- 5 commando's
- All characters join the loota's.
- Weirdboyz go full Daemonology sanctic powers
- Mega armor warboss on the front with a reroll 2+/3+ (sanctuary)
- weirdboyz can teleport closer and give the unit hammerhand + force.
- Bikes can also detach at any time
-loota's can shoot after teleport (slow and purposeful)
Its one big deathstar that could even take on the thunderwolfstar.
I posted a great weirdboyz deathstar list a while back in this topic. When you use weirdboyz you go all the way!
So just curious, with all that perils going on, how do you stop yourself from rolling a one on the chart and just deleting your deathstar?
So yeah anyone else try these kinda ork lists? What was your experience with them? I know I really like the Blitz Brigade formation, but I am not sure if it would be as good with normal boyz and such in them instead of the big boyz.
Iam trying sum thing different the next time I go to a "unlimited amount of detachment' tournament (1850).
MOGROK FORMATION
- Warboss + Mega armor + Lucky stikk + bosspole
- Big Mek (Mogrok) + mega armor + thinking capp + combi skorcha
- Big Mek + Bike + big choppa + combi skorcha
- Big Mek + Bike + big choppa + combi skorcha
- Weirdboy + level 2 upgrade
THRAKA DETACHMENT
- Big Mek + Bike + big choppa + combi skorcha + Big Kustom Force Field (4+ inv)
- Warboss + bike + power claw + combi skorcha + Big bosspole (fearless)
- 10 grots + runtherd
- 5 commando's
- All characters join the loota's.
- Weirdboyz go full Daemonology sanctic powers
- Mega armor warboss on the front with a reroll 2+/3+ (sanctuary)
- weirdboyz can teleport closer and give the unit hammerhand + force.
- Bikes can also detach at any time
-loota's can shoot after teleport (slow and purposeful)
Its one big deathstar that could even take on the thunderwolfstar.
I posted a great weirdboyz deathstar list a while back in this topic. When you use weirdboyz you go all the way!
So just curious, with all that perils going on, how do you stop yourself from rolling a one on the chart and just deleting your deathstar?
Also what powers you cast from daemonology except hammerhand and sanctuary? (you have like 21+d6 power dice)
So yeah anyone else try these kinda ork lists? What was your experience with them? I know I really like the Blitz Brigade formation, but I am not sure if it would be as good with normal boyz and such in them instead of the big boyz.
Iam trying sum thing different the next time I go to a "unlimited amount of detachment' tournament (1850).
MOGROK FORMATION
- Warboss + Mega armor + Lucky stikk + bosspole
- Big Mek (Mogrok) + mega armor + thinking capp + combi skorcha
- Big Mek + Bike + big choppa + combi skorcha
- Big Mek + Bike + big choppa + combi skorcha
- Weirdboy + level 2 upgrade
THRAKA DETACHMENT
- Big Mek + Bike + big choppa + combi skorcha + Big Kustom Force Field (4+ inv)
- Warboss + bike + power claw + combi skorcha + Big bosspole (fearless)
- 10 grots + runtherd
- 5 commando's
- All characters join the loota's.
- Weirdboyz go full Daemonology sanctic powers
- Mega armor warboss on the front with a reroll 2+/3+ (sanctuary)
- weirdboyz can teleport closer and give the unit hammerhand + force.
- Bikes can also detach at any time
-loota's can shoot after teleport (slow and purposeful)
Its one big deathstar that could even take on the thunderwolfstar.
I posted a great weirdboyz deathstar list a while back in this topic. When you use weirdboyz you go all the way!
How is this list legal? What is the "thrakka detachment"?
I am guessing its the Ghazkull Thraka detachment from the previous Waaagh Ghaz book which may or may not be legal.
Its a 7th edition detachment, but the book was reprinted. Usually reprints happen because of edition changes, not during the middle of an edition.
Given that the online web version was updated for free for people that bought the original web version, I am guessing its a replacement to the old book so its not valid anymore.
The loss of the thraka detachment would mean a downgrade of the 4++ to a 5++ but a savings of close to 150pts to put elsewhere.
So what's the best way to knock out a wraithknight as orks? Range all we really got is tankbustas but you'd need like 30+ shots to knock one down. CC is better, I've been throwing a bullyboy MANz unit into them. It's a suicide squad kinda deal with the dozen or so PK attacks taking down the knight as it stomps them to death. I've never tried a Stompa vs knight kinda situation, how has that gone for others?
I mean ideally I could charge it with 30 grots and forget it but ya know...
I would charge the tankbustas at it instead. They're cheaper, faster, and all have meltabombs. Iirc you can use those on MCs. But yeah, don't bother shooting it.
But the grot thing isnt a bad idea, either. Tarpit that mother and forget about it.
iirc melta bombs means the tankbustas can only make the one melta attack and makes them I 1 too so I haven't been to eager to try them but maybe I got that wrong.
Anybody excited for the new flier rumors? Feels like a rapid response kff. Thats a big base, cover lots of models. Not sure I like the idea of firing a smasha kannon from something also sporting supa shootas though. Still, orkz have more fliers and soon we get to turn them twice in the no5vement phase. Hunting armor might be easier.
slip wrote: iirc melta bombs means the tankbustas can only make the one melta attack and makes them I 1 too so I haven't been to eager to try them but maybe I got that wrong.
You got it right but 5 melta bombz will usually kill most non superheavy vehicles.
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Rismonite wrote: Anybody excited for the new flier rumors? Feels like a rapid response kff. Thats a big base, cover lots of models. Not sure I like the idea of firing a smasha kannon from something also sporting supa shootas though. Still, orkz have more fliers and soon we get to turn them twice in the no5vement phase. Hunting armor might be easier.
I'm bored and can't sleep.
I really like the idea of having a KFF and tellyporta insta gibbers on a flier. Not sure how good it is but I do like it a lot. Now just hope that their rules are better then the gorkanaught
oldzoggy wrote: You got it right but 5 melta bombz will usually kill most non superheavy vehicles.
But will probably only do a single wound to a wraithknight. Even if all 5 survive to attack (despite overwatch and the wraithknight's regular attacks), only half will hit, half will wound, and two thirds will get through the FNP..
The advantages that Meltabombs have over rokkits are: Accuracy (WS 4 instead of BS 2). Ignores cover saves. Armourbane AP 1 instead of AP 3. Advantage 1 could be negated by the wraithknight's Fear. Advantage 2 only helps if the wraithknight doesn't have that fancy invulnerable save, advantages 3 and 4 won't help against wraithknights at all. Oh, and nor will Tankhunter.
The gretchen idea would probably falter in the face of the gretchen's lack of fearless. Against normal knights you could try to restrict mobility (move them to 1'' away but don't charge)... but wraithknights are jump units, so can ignore that.
Sorry if I'm being a downer - shooting down ideas rather than proposing my own ideas.
Seems like the bullyboy MANz missile is the way to go. A biker unit with Zhadsnark and a boss with the killchoppa is more expensive but could potentially pre empt the stomps. (Less than average chance.) But yeah, a tarpit would be nice but we don't really have anything that could tarpit a WK.
I was gonna type a bunch of words about the WK but I can sum it up fairly quickly instead: bs.
I wasn't too keen on ITC rules initially but after Adepticon (Less house rules, follows BRB closer.) with Eldar taking like 8 of the top 10 etc etc it's glaringly obvious how broken the Eldar book is. That one needs an update faster than any other book, and it needs the ork update treatment, stat.
Why yes I had a bad time vs a WK recently, why do you ask?
65 points of tankbustas vs 300ish points of wraithknight. Who should win?
The serious point is it is possible for 300 points of tankbustas to down a wraithknight in a turn and still have bodies to show for it, where as a wraithknight can't really beat 300 points of tankbustas in a turn.
With that said, the jetbikes helping him are going to mulch you up if you don't shoot those first.
Any thoughts on the upcoming changes to Flyers and how that effects the Ork squadrons and air armada? Did GW just scrap part of the WAAAGH Ghazghkull rerelease?
I can't seem to understand what I've read enough to put things into perspective.
warhead01 wrote: Any thoughts on the upcoming changes to Flyers and how that effects the Ork squadrons and air armada? Did GW just scrap part of the WAAAGH Ghazghkull rerelease?
I can't seem to understand what I've read enough to put things into perspective.
Lots of crying and over reacting by the same quick to complain crowd.
Bottom line is the death from the skies expansion is nearly identical to the old death from skies supplement that has been out for 3-4 years with the same optional dog fighting rules, the same scenarios, the same missions, etc.
As an optional supplement just like cities of death, planet strike, etc no one has to use them.
Unless I see tournaments or flgs and the rest of the community start playing with these rules as standard. I am saving myself the $ instead of buying the book.
However the new ork flyer at 12/10/10 with a 5++ for the first hit (upgradable to a 5++ to all flyers within 6) and a ton of high strength shooting for 140pts seems decent and is likely our best flyer now.
Frozocrone wrote: Ignore Wraithknights if possible, or chuck Power Klaws/Rokkits at it.
Tarpitting it is a recipe for disaster, you'll probably just lose about 5 models or so to Stomp, then be run down.
The new flyer actual does a decent job on the wraithknight.
Twin-linked 36", S8, AP2, Heavy 1, Blast, Gets hot
1x 36" S1D6+4, AP1, Heavy1
Plus the suppa shoota
Frozocrone wrote: Ignore Wraithknights if possible, or chuck Power Klaws/Rokkits at it.
Tarpitting it is a recipe for disaster, you'll probably just lose about 5 models or so to Stomp, then be run down.
The new flyer actual does a decent job on the wraithknight.
Twin-linked 36", S8, AP2, Heavy 1, Blast, Gets hot
1x 36" S1D6+4, AP1, Heavy1
Plus the suppa shoota
I might be wrong but isn't the Wraithknight T8? So supa shootas wound on a 6, KMK wounds on a 4 and on average the smasha gun wounds on a 5. Coming up against cover/invulnerable saves and FNP, all at BS2 or worse on a platform that can probably get off two shots a game at the WK because of movement and firing angles. The new flyer is basically two flying Mek Gunz that have to fire at the same target, not something that's really any more useful than Mek Gunz are usually. It's not terrible and I'm sure it will be fun, but not wholly effective.
It would be interesting to know what BS the new fiyer has. In the description there was something mentioned like the mek conecting himself to the targetting system and incresing its accuracy that way. BS3 would be nice and helpfull to get the thing working. Besides, with the KFF it's 165 pts, and a Dakkajet was 130 pts (with the third supa-shoota). Waiting for the dataslate to show up.
Plus it just looks so damn cool. All those bits sticking out of it and the size of it are incredible. I just hope it doesn't catch a case of the Deff Dreads where it's the coolest looking model in the codex but one of the worst, rules-wise.
Just making sure folks know, since it sounds like they're thinking different- Every single Tankbusta has the Bombs (unless it's changed)- that means a unit of 15 could probably get into combat and slap a good 10 on their target.
Not to mention the shooting up to that point.
Tankbustas, like so many other Ork units, really shine in maximum sized units- tha'ts why we have such low BS, because we don't fire a single rocket per squad, but 15.
Frozocrone wrote: Ignore Wraithknights if possible, or chuck Power Klaws/Rokkits at it.
Tarpitting it is a recipe for disaster, you'll probably just lose about 5 models or so to Stomp, then be run down.
The new flyer actual does a decent job on the wraithknight.
Twin-linked 36", S8, AP2, Heavy 1, Blast, Gets hot
1x 36" S1D6+4, AP1, Heavy1
Plus the suppa shoota
I might be wrong but isn't the Wraithknight T8? So supa shootas wound on a 6, KMK wounds on a 4 and on average the smasha gun wounds on a 5. Coming up against cover/invulnerable saves and FNP, all at BS2 or worse on a platform that can probably get off two shots a game at the WK because of movement and firing angles. The new flyer is basically two flying Mek Gunz that have to fire at the same target, not something that's really any more useful than Mek Gunz are usually. It's not terrible and I'm sure it will be fun, but not wholly effective.
It's t8 however the flyer is likely bs3 regardless it's 2 primary wpns are twinlinked and blasts. You are hardly missing anything with that.
The smasha gun is likely only bs3 however I have no idea how you came up with a 5+ to wound when it sits on a variable str score that goes from 5-10 depending on your roll. So your wounding somewhere between a 6+ to 2+.
The suppa shoota at str6!needs 6 to wound however it's just bonus on a platform that already shoots 3 hvy artillery wpns. Shots depending largely on when this thing enters from reserves however with 2 pivots a turn it should easily get multiple turns on the wraithknight as long as it's alive.
With two twin linked KMK and a smasha gun it's already better then a squad of 3x Mek guns with a single hit 5++ for 140pts. I don't think the extra KFF is worth it even for 25pts, keep this thing cheap and maybe fly two of them. That's a lot of anti armour and anti mc. One bad thing about this unit is blasts don't work on other flyers.
My point is it's well worth the cost and is one of the better anti wraithknight units. The wraithknight also will have a hard time killing this unit. Requires skyfire, av12/10/10(means scatter lasers suck vs it) 3 hull and either a single 5++ or KFF. Is a decent flyer.
It's t8 however the flyer is likely bs3 regardless it's 2 primary wpns are twinlinked and blasts. You are hardly missing anything with that.
The smasha gun is likely only bs3 however I have no idea how you came up with a 5+ to wound when it sits on a variable str score that goes from 5-10 depending on your roll. So your wounding somewhere between a 6+ to 2+.
The suppa shoota at str6!needs 6 to wound however it's just bonus on a platform that already shoots 3 hvy artillery wpns. Shots depending largely on when this thing enters from reserves however with 2 pivots a turn it should easily get multiple turns on the wraithknight as long as it's alive.
With two twin linked KMK and a smasha gun it's already better then a squad of 3x Mek guns with a single hit 5++ for 140pts. I don't think the extra KFF is worth it even for pts, keep this thing cheap and maybe fly two of them. That's a lot of anti armour and anti mc. One bad thing about this unit is blasts don't work on other flyers.
My point is it's well worth the cost and is one of the better anti wraithknight units. The wraithknight also will have a hard time killing this unit. Requires skyfire, av12/10/10(means scatter lasers suck vs it) 3 hull and either a single 5++ or KFF. Is a decent flyer.
I did say that on average the Smasha Gun is wounding on a 5 (assuming you roll a 3) but it does indeed have a decent chance of wounding on a 4 or better. Until we see the datasheet for it it's probably safer to assume the flyer has BS2, the fluff about the Mek being hardwired in for better accuracy is likely only reflected by the blast weapons being twin-linked. Perhaps the big shoota on the back has the Grot Gunner special rule. The model looks like it has two KMKs on it but I would imagine that it's wargear is just a single twin-linked one, so it may only have two heavy weapons, the supa shoota and the big shoota that's pointed in the wrong direction. I'm no mathematician but I'm sure that two weapons are better than one weapon that's twin-linked, at least when you're firing two weapons you've got the chance to get two hits - particularly true when comparing this flyer to Mek Gunz who are certainly BS3 and can get ammo runts.
I'd argue that Scatterbikes are nearly the perfect unit to shoot this flyer out of the sky, they (and plenty of other things) have the mobility to ignore the front AV12 and a few four-shot S6 weapons will make short work of three AV10 hull points even with snapshots. We can't really afford to Jink with this new flyer either (unlike with the Dakkajet or Blitza-bomma that don't really mind snapshots) but the once-per-turn 5++ should help there.
It's not a terrible anti-Wraithknight weapon (and surely up there with the best that Orks have to offer) but I wouldn't feel safe if I was relying on it. Admittedly my experience with Wraithknights is limited to a single game and it wasn't even equipped with any D weapons so I chased it for a few turns and then hit it with a Stompa, but I've faced more than a few other high Toughness MC.
I don't mean to disregard your comments or seem too negative, I'll definitely be proxying my other flyers as this new Blastajet in a game or two and will probably pick one up at some point for the nice looking model, but it just doesn't seem to fill any particularly useful niche. I hope that when we see the full rules for it I'm forced to eat my words
Anvildude wrote: Just making sure folks know, since it sounds like they're thinking different- Every single Tankbusta has the Bombs (unless it's changed)- that means a unit of 15 could probably get into combat and slap a good 10 on their target.
Not to mention the shooting up to that point.
Tankbustas, like so many other Ork units, really shine in maximum sized units- tha'ts why we have such low BS, because we don't fire a single rocket per squad, but 15.
Rismonite wrote: 65 points of tankbustas vs 300ish points of wraithknight. Who should win?
The serious point is it is possible for 300 points of tankbustas to down a wraithknight in a turn and still have bodies to show for it, where as a wraithknight can't really beat 300 points of tankbustas in a turn.
With that said, the jetbikes helping him are going to mulch you up if you don't shoot those first.
The way my maths figures it, you would need like 50 tankbustas in CC to cause 6 W. Then you would need trukks too, maybe a Nob with BP too in case they lose that first round from stomps and CC attacks so they don't get run down. (I 2 vs I 5, our max is their average.) (x*.5*.5*0.666...*0.666...=W)
People actually pay the cost for tankhammers? If they were a free upgrade maybe however you'd be better off loading up on bomb squigs. Those can really damage mc/gmc.
Anvildude wrote: Are you factoring in Tankhammers and multiple rounds of combat? Or figuring a single, all-out fight?
At 15 points a hammer, I'd rather just get another tankbusta for another melta bomb than essentially giving another model +1 A, still I 1 but AP3 instead of AP1 and no armourbane.
As for multiple rounds of combat, assuming base to base combat and maybe even multiple rows of tankbustas, and with these numbers that's pretty safe to assume, we're looking at like 7 dead tankbustas, conservatively. (average 2 stomps, 3 models per blast template which is 3" d and 1" d model bases, so I'm even assuming the TB are totally encircling the WK.) If we're going with 15 models, that's like 2 wounds. Ork leadership at -5 (Snake eyes, 1 in 36), fail break is I roll off at -3 for total wipe or mob rule knocks it down 2 more models. Now I didn't subtract the WK's I 5 kills before the tankbustas I 1 attacks earlier, but that's probably two more here before you get to strike again. Now you got 5 tankbustas which is like <0.33... W.
If you go back earlier in my example and assume now you don't have a perfect circle around the WK and there is rows of tankbustas. You can double the number of stomp casualties, the totals now being 12 vs 7 including melee. Those three leftover models might not even survive their mob rule.
Shooting is like ~0.07 W per model so if you want to throw in a round of shooting. (Range vs assault range is not great.) The WK will probably have more rounds of shooting because of range and can hit hard targets with S D. This also doesn't factor the psyker buffs the WK can receive (Force multiplier.) and the orks don't have that capability at all.
195 + 50 for trukk, ram, nob, bp is only 45 points short of the WK and assuming perfect battlefield conditions (lol) you have a one turn speed bump and 3 wounds, but not able to engage until turn 2-3. (That's a lot of S D shooting.)
gungo wrote: People actually pay the cost for tankhammers? If they were a free upgrade maybe however you'd be better off loading up on bomb squigs. Those can really damage mc/gmc.
Bomb squigs are good for first blood vs a transport or light vehicle. (And with Gloryhog can definitely affect how the other army plays the rest of the game.) But anything else the odds aren't really there. It's basically +30% accuracy, -6" range (or something I forget. E: Nailed It.), -1 AP, one use only, and that AP 4 vs AP 3 with MC and GMCs is huge, giving them their armour save and basically offsetting it's bonus. (Literally too: 0.66...*0.5*0.33...*0.66...=0.33...*0.5*0.66...*0.66...) (E: Didn't nail it. Thought it was hit on 3+ not 2+ for some reason. So it'll actually average out 0.018 more wounds per turn, or 1.8% more effective.)
Don't get me wrong, tankbustas are still one of the best options Orks have vs WKs, but that's mostly because of how bad the math is in comparison with Lootas/Flash Gitz/Mek Guns. This should just show how bad overall we are at it. It might literally be the most competitive strategy to jut ignore it the whole game. (I'm probably just going to keep throwing MANz at it because I play Orks dammit and if I see something shiny I want to krump it.) (BB MANz x*0.666...*0.833...*0.666...*0.666... and they get their 2+ save vs the S 6 AP 4 stomps which are 2-5 on the chart.)
Rismonite wrote: 65 points of tankbustas vs 300ish points of wraithknight. Who should win?
The serious point is it is possible for 300 points of tankbustas to down a wraithknight in a turn and still have bodies to show for it, where as a wraithknight can't really beat 300 points of tankbustas in a turn.
With that said, the jetbikes helping him are going to mulch you up if you don't shoot those first.
I slammed two five men squads into a WK last week and was surprised to see they did only two wounds to the monster. He in return almost wiped them from the table in one turn. Having a unit of boys at hand to soak up the damage would have been nice, but then I would still have lost that round of combat.
With 300 points of tankbustas you will kill a wraightknight in two rounds of shooting or one round of combat. However that's a lot of tankbustas
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Vitali Advenil wrote: Plus it just looks so damn cool. All those bits sticking out of it and the size of it are incredible.
The size? It is not bigger then a normal dakkajet, is it?
You would need 30+ tankbustas to kill a WK in two turns of shooting. The WK is too mobile to be in shooting range for 2 turns without assault or return shooting casualties at least.
I think people miss the point.
There is really no efficient way to kill a wraithknight.
This is mainly because the wraithknight is one of the most point efficient units in game. It's not really overpowered more then the fact it's about 100pts undercosted.
However the other issue is that mc or gmc don't have nearly as much anti stuff as a vehicle.
If tankbustas had monster hunter it would be a different story however they don't and you are using an anti vehicle platform to kill a gmc. It's just not made for that even if it does an ok job of it.
As most players eluded to in this post by saying just tarpit it ignore it Orks don't have a good answer to any gmc really. We don't have any access to monster hunter, almost no access to Insta death weapons, no str d, and we rely solely on our questionable access to str 8+ ap2/3 wpns.
As I stated before I hope the new wazboom blast jet is a decent point efficient anti armour vehicle.
So far I've heard it's
Twinlinked str8 ap2 gets hot blast 36in range (I'm hoping this is 2x weapons and not a single small blast at bs2/3)
1x str4+1d6 ap1 36in range upgradeable to str8 ap2 large blast
And str6 ap4 assault 3
For 140pts
If this is really 3 str8 ap2 blasts and the supa shoota for 160ish points it would make for decent anti gmc platform if you fly two of them it should be able to handle a wraith knight. If it's only 2 str8 ap2 blasts it will be ok but still woefully short of what Orks needs.
gungo wrote: I think people miss the point.
There is really no efficient way to kill a wraithknight.
This is mainly because the wraithknight is one of the most point efficient units in game. It's not really overpowered more then the fact it's about 100pts undercosted.
However the other issue is that mc or gmc don't have nearly as much anti stuff as a vehicle.
If tankbustas had monster hunter it would be a different story however they don't and you are using an anti vehicle platform to kill a gmc. It's just not made for that even if it does an ok job of it.
As most players eluded to in this post by saying just tarpit it ignore it Orks don't have a good answer to any gmc really. We don't have any access to monster hunter, almost no access to Insta death weapons, no str d, and we rely solely on our questionable access to str 8+ ap2/3 wpns.
As I stated before I hope the new wazboom blast jet is a decent point efficient anti armour vehicle.
So far I've heard it's
Twinlinked str8 ap2 gets hot blast 36in range (I'm hoping this is 2x weapons and not a single small blast at bs2/3)
1x str4+1d6 ap1 36in range upgradeable to str8 ap2 large blast
And str6 ap4 assault 3
For 140pts
If this is really 3 str8 ap2 blasts and the supa shoota for 160ish points it would make for decent anti gmc platform if you fly two of them it should be able to handle a wraith knight. If it's only 2 str8 ap2 blasts it will be ok but still woefully short of what Orks needs.
Stompa is the most efficient way to deal with a wraithknight. Give him the gaze of mork and a bursta cannon. Fire at him every turn and hide in cover. Try to get your opponent to assault you with the wraithknight. If it works, wraithknight is now I 1 and swings at the same time as the stompa. All it takes is a single str D hit and roll a 6 on the table and that sucker is dead.
Your and most people idea of efficient is wildly off.
A 770 base stompa or more accurately an 800+ Pt big Mek stompa is horribly inefficient.
The big Mek stompa still doesn't help as Stomps do absolutely nothing on gmc leaving you with a single bs2 str d range wpn with absolutely no way to reroll your to hit.
Your actual best chance is likely a claw stompa with its crazy amount of str d atks however it's horribly slow compared to the jump gmc wraithknight, still swings after the wraithknight and still horribly overcosted.
More than likely you are talking about the ITC point adjusted buzzgrob stompa at 500 pts (without the belly gun which is its best wpn) which is likely costed accurately however wildly inefficient compared to a wraithknight. Which you still can take 2 of compared to a big Mek stompa with gaze of mork and belly gun.
As stated there is no efficient way for an ork to match a wraithknight. Actually few armies can match the efficiency of that unit. (Grav space marines being the exception)
And seriously why would any eldar player charge a stompa in cover? You're trading range atks between each other and the wraithknight is likely trading 2 str d range atks at bs4 with possibly prescience or invis in cover compared to a single bs2 str d range atk? Have you played the big Mek stompa? The gaze of mork is luck based at best and rarely hits. The belly gun is the best wpn the big Mek stompa has because it's massive blast pretty much ignores the bs2.
gungo wrote: Your and most people idea of efficient is wildly off.
A 770 base stompa or more accurately an 800+ Pt big Mek stompa is horribly inefficient.
The big Mek stompa still doesn't help as Stomps do absolutely nothing on gmc leaving you with a single bs2 str d range wpn with absolutely no way to reroll your to hit.
Your actual best chance is likely a claw stompa with its crazy amount of str d atks however it's horribly slow compared to the jump gmc wraithknight, still swings after the wraithknight and still horribly overcosted.
More than likely you are talking about the ITC point adjusted buzzgrob stompa at 500 pts (without the belly gun which is its best wpn) which is likely costed accurately however wildly inefficient compared to a wraithknight. Which you still can take 2 of compared to a big Mek stompa with gaze of mork and belly gun.
As stated there is no efficient way for an ork to match a wraithknight. Actually few armies can match the efficiency of that unit. (Grav space marines being the exception)
And seriously why would any eldar player charge a stompa in cover? You're trading range atks between each other and the wraithknight is likely trading 2 str d range atks at bs4 with possibly prescience or invis in cover compared to a single bs2 str d range atk? Have you played the big Mek stompa? The gaze of mork is luck based at best and rarely hits. The belly gun is the best wpn the big Mek stompa has because it's massive blast pretty much ignores the bs2.
I have played it numerous times. Personally the codex stompa is useless. Its over cost. You can build it cheaper in the kustom stompa builder. Since FW can decide on a point cost for the big mek stompa for Buzzgob, I've stopped using it. I just use a kustom stompa now. Also I'm not talking about anything with ITC. Just the base example what the orks have that can take on a wraithknight.
In the last ITC event I was at, I used a Klawstompa built in the Kustom Stompa maker. He was allowed by the TO. I played an eldar guy with a wraithknight. Cornered his knight in the corner of the table and gave him the choice. Either assault me in cover or be assaulted. He had D cannons on him, but thanks to ITC rules they are not as good as CCstr D. Also I had power fields and mega-force field on as well. He only had 3 units that could actually hurt me at range. He assaulted me and took his chances. He lost. Out of my 14 attacks, I made 8 and 3 of them were 6's on the D table.
You really can't corner a jump gmc that ignores all intervening terrain and models. At best he couldn't clear your charge range even when you only can move 6 in through cover/difficult terrain.the av12 d6 Power fields on the full priced 5th Ed rules kustom stompa are not regenable and easily stripped as long as you are playing it correctly and not using the mff on the power fields. Which leaves you with your hull points and your mff and any repair rolls you stacked into it.
However the unit you just described is also well over 800pts and still horribly inefficient. Kustom klaw stompa with belly gun, gaze of mork, big Mek with mff. congratz your stompa that costs nearly 3x the cost of a wraithknight killed it. That's not what I was saying. Efficiency does not mean unkillable. While the str d range wrsithknight is the most useful version if you compare the melee str d, invul shield version vs the kustom klaw stompa the klaw stompa will likely still die to the higher int str d atks as long as the power fields have been stripped at some point. This is still at slightly over 1/3 the cost you just mentioned for the klaw stompa.
KMK is one thing but supposedly the new flier can mount two tellyporta sponsons. I pray to gork is 2x the template not just TL. Str 8 AP2 ID on a 6 feels sweet. By that time I'd pay for the smasha cannon just to giggle at the thought of it picking a wk up and tossing it about.
I couldn't help but notice the Dakkadakka wiki article on Ork tactica is extremely outdated. I have begun compiling a new one. My HQ analysis is complete, so please feel free to take a look. Any questions, comments, or suggestions should probably just be PM'd to me or posted in the relevant article discussion thread to avoid clogging up this thread.
gungo wrote: You really can't corner a jump gmc that ignores all intervening terrain and models. At best he couldn't clear your charge range even when you only can move 6 in through cover/difficult terrain.the av12 d6 Power fields on the full priced 5th Ed rules kustom stompa are not regenable and easily stripped as long as you are playing it correctly and not using the mff on the power fields. Which leaves you with your hull points and your mff and any repair rolls you stacked into it.
However the unit you just described is also well over 800pts and still horribly inefficient. Kustom klaw stompa with belly gun, gaze of mork, big Mek with mff. congratz your stompa that costs nearly 3x the cost of a wraithknight killed it. That's not what I was saying. Efficiency does not mean unkillable. While the str d range wrsithknight is the most useful version if you compare the melee str d, invul shield version vs the kustom klaw stompa the klaw stompa will likely still die to the higher int str d atks as long as the power fields have been stripped at some point. This is still at slightly over 1/3 the cost you just mentioned for the klaw stompa.
Well when I used my klaw stompa, I had the supercharger engine on him. This gave him a threat range of 2d6x2 for charge range. Just giving you an example on how I beat one. If you are looking for a point cost efficient way of doing it, I don't think you are ever going to find one. At most, you might break even with the cost of the wraithknight. Happy hunting.
Glitcha wrote: Well when I used my klaw stompa, I had the supercharger engine on him. This gave him a threat range of 2d6x2 for charge range. Just giving you an example on how I beat one. If you are looking for a point cost efficient way of doing it, I don't think you are ever going to find one. At most, you might break even with the cost of the wraithknight. Happy hunting.
The Supercharger engine who's latest rules are from 4th or 5th edition, and talk about a fixed charge range of 12"? That one?
koooaei wrote: So, What's up with a new flyer? I've got a ww2 plane for like 5$ ready to be orkified.
I am also eagerly awaiting details. I dont imagine it will save our beloved armies, but I hope it will bring something interesting.
Also what do you guys think about allying in a renegade knight? Its allies of convenience which is perfectly fine for us. It has some interesting options and I am thinking of taking one over Buzzgobs stompa. Anyone here have any plans on using it and if so how do you think it would best compliment the ork army? I am thinking dual gatling cannons to mow down anything and everything.
Compared to the stompa it has the advantage of having far superior shooting ability, but thats really about it. It is far squishier and cannot be repaired by your orks. With two gatling cannons it clocks in at 435 points compared to the base 400 points of the big mek stompa.
Glitcha wrote: Well when I used my klaw stompa, I had the supercharger engine on him. This gave him a threat range of 2d6x2 for charge range. Just giving you an example on how I beat one. If you are looking for a point cost efficient way of doing it, I don't think you are ever going to find one. At most, you might break even with the cost of the wraithknight. Happy hunting.
The Supercharger engine who's latest rules are from 4th or 5th edition, and talk about a fixed charge range of 12"? That one?
The Clawstompa's rules get more vague every day. First the number of attacks are not clear at all. Now the chargerange is debatable as well; 2d6x2 or 12" fixed charg, it's a difference.
Was having a go with the Painmob recently in some friendly games.
Since you have to take a Nobz mob anyway, I decided to go for a unit of 9, all in armour with Big Choppas, one Powerklaw (not on the Bossnob), and stuck them in a trukk with the Painboy.
It was surprisingly durable and effective. Still pricey, but not as bad as the more usual Nob builds. And the formation rule was quite nice.
Ran the Boyz as typical trukk boyz alongside them.
Glitcha wrote: Well when I used my klaw stompa, I had the supercharger engine on him. This gave him a threat range of 2d6x2 for charge range. Just giving you an example on how I beat one. If you are looking for a point cost efficient way of doing it, I don't think you are ever going to find one. At most, you might break even with the cost of the wraithknight. Happy hunting.
The Supercharger engine who's latest rules are from 4th or 5th edition, and talk about a fixed charge range of 12"? That one?
The Clawstompa's rules get more vague every day. First the number of attacks are not clear at all. Now the chargerange is debatable as well; 2d6x2 or 12" fixed charg, it's a difference.
As you can see they aren't really compatible with modern 40K, and unless I'm missing something Forgeworld has never FAQ'd them to bring them up to date.
I've got a tourney coming up in June that allows me to use a Kustom Stompa so I'm going to run a Klaw Stompa. To avoid confusion i won't give it the Supercharger, and plan to ignore the 3rd bullet on the Klawfrenzy rule. Also, per the rules, I will treat it as having 7 Attacks.
I think the Attacks confusion is a result of not understanding where the 3 Attack bonus comes from for being a Klaw Stompa. Normally if you have 2 CCW, you get a bonus 1 Attack. For a pair of Titan Close Combat Weapons you get a bonus of 3 attacks instead of 1. Those two things don't stack, though i see how someone could make that mistake.
I run tournaments, and am looked to as a source of rules clarity, and to set the tone when it comes to rules, so I can't use janky rules interpretations to gain personal power for my army. 7 Strength D attacks plus Stomp is enough for me coming off a 480 point unit with Objective Secured that hides my warlord. (350 point stompa + 50 for 2 TCCW + 35 points for Gretchin + 45 Poitns for Big Mek w/ DFK).
So with the leaks of the new Death From the Skies book, do any of the formations (or aerial wing formations) change things for Ork lists, particularly Speed Freaks? Namely do flyers make a comeback now for Greenskins?
So in light of the new 40kFAQ draft GW posted on their FB page, taking tankhammers in a tankbuster squad will be useful.
Units can only use 1 grenade in the assault phase.
So 5 tankbustas = 1 model may make 1 grenade attack.
Regarding the new flyer formations: Yes.
The two flyer formation wings are:
Ork Skwadron
1- dakkajet wing
1-burna bomber wing
1- Blitz bomba wing
Benefit 1: pick one wing from this formation, all flyers in it get +1 BS, +1 agility, and Skilled rider
Benefit2: If all flyer wings are in attack pattern, and each is within 24" of each other can move flat out and shoot
Kustom Wazbom
1 Wasbom blastjet
3 othe flyers of any type
Benefit1: 3+ I save to wing lead and all flyers if in fortitude attack pattern (normally a 4+I save).
Considering fortitude pattern also gives IWND and interceptor
The flyers are pretty powerful. You can get dakkajets which are BS4 versus some targets in the first one, the second one is really hard to kill for flyers. 3++ and IWND on all four flyers as long as they stay in formation.
I think I'll probably just try to keep my tankbustas out of CC all together. No way in hell am I throwing a 30 point model with a basic 6 point boy stat line, I 1, and a 6+ save into CC for two S8 power weapon attacks, that's still garbage.
slip wrote: I think I'll probably just try to keep my tankbustas out of CC all together. No way in hell am I throwing a 30 point model with a basic 6 point boy stat line, I 1, and a 6+ save into CC for two power weapon attacks, that's still garbage.
This makes me very sad. Tankbustas used to be our only real hope against SHVs. Now we have nothing. Thanks GW.
slip wrote: I think I'll probably just try to keep my tankbustas out of CC all together. No way in hell am I throwing a 30 point model with a basic 6 point boy stat line, I 1, and a 6+ save into CC for two power weapon attacks, that's still garbage.
This makes me very sad. Tankbustas used to be our only real hope against SHVs. Now we have nothing. Thanks GW.
Try a Bullyboyz MANz Missile. They strike simultaneously with stomps and get their save vs anything but a 6 on the stomp table. 20 WS 5 S 9 AP 2 attacks should do the trick. Fearless prevents LD checks and Mob rule.
E: FWIW i think tankbustas are still useful, but MSU tactics are more important than ever for them.
My Tankbustas just became a lot less useful. Meltabombs were the reason to take them, the rokkits were just a bonus.
You would still get +1 attack on the charge with a Tankhammer, right? So 3 attacks with the Tankhammer on the charge? Or is that Grot math? (did I forget a special rule?)
Cleatus wrote: My Tankbustas just became a lot less useful. Meltabombs were the reason to take them, the rokkits were just a bonus.
You would still get +1 attack on the charge with a Tankhammer, right? So 3 attacks with the Tankhammer on the charge? Or is that Grot math? (did I forget a special rule?)
They would still get +1 A on the charge, I was just going off base profile.
They are still extremely effective shooting AV12 or less vehicles and will IDMEQs. Trukks give them the opportunity to target side and rear armour.
But yeah, forget about putting them in CC now.
I just typed up the Tankbusta portion of my ork tactica article last night too. Gotta rewrite that now. /sigh
Automatically Appended Next Post: Killsaws are probably a thing now.
Wow, and I just finished my squad of tankbustas. Bluh. Well, guess I'll just have them shoot at softer tanks that my MANz shouldn't bother with. Granted I usually take at least six meganobz in my TAC lists but still, it just gives my tankbustas less options.
I have about 10 Finecast versions and several other Rokkit guys that I use for them. It is sad. Only hope is that it's overruled. Or that the Codex Specific FAQs let them use as many as possible.
Ah, gak. I'm reading through it and it looks like blast weapons cannot reroll gets hot results with things like ammo runts. That's a decent blow to KMKs.
It also seems that bombers cannot perform a bombing run if they jink, and it also can't make a bombing run if it leaves the table that same turn, so that's a blow to the blitza-bommer as well. One interesting tidbit is that we actually can target units locked in combat in a bombing run. That is something I did not expect.
Another bit I think is useful for us given our penchant for ID attacks in CC is that if an Eternal Warrior model with FNP fails its save against an attack that would otherwise ID it, it does not get the FNP.
Another bit I think is useful for us given our penchant for ID attacks in CC is that if an Eternal Warrior model with FNP fails its save against an attack that would otherwise ID it, it does not get the FNP.
It's always been this way.
Tankbustas are still somewhat fine against regular vehicles. But we now have no means of killing knights other than overloading them with MANz with saws. Also, MC are gona be more problematic. Oh, and mogrok bossboyz are not usable in mech lists due to "no transports for battlebrothers before deployment". Formations are just like another detachment that's battlebrothers, right?
Vitali Advenil wrote: Ah, gak. I'm reading through it and it looks like blast weapons cannot reroll gets hot results with things like ammo runts. That's a decent blow to KMKs.
It also seems that bombers cannot perform a bombing run if they jink, and it also can't make a bombing run if it leaves the table that same turn, so that's a blow to the blitza-bommer as well. One interesting tidbit is that we actually can target units locked in combat in a bombing run. That is something I did not expect.
Another bit I think is useful for us given our penchant for ID attacks in CC is that if an Eternal Warrior model with FNP fails its save against an attack that would otherwise ID it, it does not get the FNP.
So it's mostly negative with some positive.
Nothing have fnp roll against id weapon even with etheral shield.
I can already see a FAQ for the FAQ stating you can still embark in transports from other detachment as long as they are part of the same faction (However in the case of say Space Marines it has to be from the same chapter).
Well. From what i see now:
- Tankbustas got a huge nerf and a reason to take a pk nob. Still decent and usable but not a hard counter to SH any more.
- Blitza bombers can no longer jink and drop bombs. Going down from meh to junk in my book.
- Blitz brigade no longer usable.
- KMK can no longer re-roll overheats. Going down from good to questionable. It will require further testing but ld5 grots triggering ld tests will not be pretty. Maybe still kinda good with extra grots and megaboss or something. But much less stable than they used to be.
Rismonite wrote: Orks arent battle brothers with orkz. They are also orkz.
Too soon for tactics, it is still subject to change.
Not according to the allies table, there it states that orks are battlebrothers to orks. You could use the blitzbrigade in the great waaagh detachments as an auxilarry, then they are from the same detachment and not allies.
Orks can't ally with themselves, right? They're just all the same faction. Therefore the battle brothers transport restriction doesn't apply here, right?
Cleatus wrote: Orks can't ally with themselves, right? They're just all the same faction. Therefore the battle brothers transport restriction doesn't apply here, right?
This.
The battlebrothers thing is meant to try and shutdown different factions of imperials using each other's transports. Not tell an ork with two CADs that painboy in CAD1 can't start with CAD2's nobz in battlewagon.
My kans and Deffdreads just got stronger in CC.
I have an opponent that usually pile-in marines and scouts on my walkers and drown them with krak grenades.
No more. Bhwahahah !
.... Okay, that's not much compared to the tankbustas nerf but that's still something...
The big reason walkers suck is because of the prevalence of multiple shot high S low AP shooting. The grenade nerf won't help them all that much. How many kans even get into combat anyway?
koooaei wrote: Well, the 1 nade in melee kinda makes sense even in the brb. Don't know why we played differently. Maybe the word "thrown" got us.
Lol I am totally reading this right now going 'huh, yeah why was I doing it the other way'. One thing is for certain, I need to start looking into nobz with klaws and a couple tankhammer boyz to keep them even average at what they do
Frozocrone wrote: Looking at it, MANz Missiles are better than ever. The new FAQ gave a 'wheel in cover' save to Vehicles by virtue of overriding the previous rules.
Regarding the one grenade clarification: seems to benefit Marines more than any other army since their sergeants can take melta bombs. Surprise surprise.
It would be nice if Burnas could get their 2D6 for armor penetration back in the assault phase. That would help mitigate the disaster to our beloved Tankbustas.
Back to the good ole trusty PK for killin vehicles and MC's I guess.
koooaei wrote: Well. From what i see now:
- Tankbustas got a huge nerf and a reason to take a pk nob. Still decent and usable but not a hard counter to SH any more.
- Blitza bombers can no longer jink and drop bombs. Going down from meh to junk in my book.
- Blitz brigade no longer usable.
- KMK can no longer re-roll overheats. Going down from good to questionable. It will require further testing but ld5 grots triggering ld tests will not be pretty. Maybe still kinda good with extra grots and megaboss or something. But much less stable than they used to be.
Only nerfs so far.
Some not nerfs:
Templates/blasts effect all lvls of ruins - makes burna boyz, cannons and lobbas better (and on a skyfire nexus they can hit fliers)
Killa kanz, deffdreads, trukks and battlewagons gained 'toe in cover' save now and more resilent in assault with no fear of grenades
Battlewagons will be harder to kill since you can't hit rear armor with multiple grenades in assault
Frozocrone wrote: Looking at it, MANz Missiles are better than ever. The new FAQ gave a 'wheel in cover' save to Vehicles by virtue of overriding the previous rules.
How it did that please? i think i missed it.
The FAQ said:
The 25% rule applies in all types of terrain if the target is a Flyer, Super-heavy Vehicle, Flying Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature. All other targets count as being in cover if they are in or on the
terrain’s base, even if not 25% obsured
Since FAQ's overrule the BrB, you can now start your Trukks in ruins and zoom out with Reinforced Rams turn one. Which is good. Because the previous defence, the VSG, was nerfed badly.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I can already see a FAQ for the FAQ stating you can still embark in transports from other detachment as long as they are part of the same faction (However in the case of say Space Marines it has to be from the same chapter).
my guess is army lists from the same codex or supplement of that codex are not battlebrothers. They are the same army.
The 25% rule applies in all types of terrain if the target is a Flyer, Super-heavy Vehicle, Flying Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature. All other targets count as being in cover if they are in or on the
terrain’s base, even if not 25% obsured
Templates/blasts effect all lvls of ruins - makes burna boyz, cannons and lobbas better
well, that worked exactly like it the whole 7-th edition. Yep, you can hit flyers now, though. However, people rarely use mysterious objectives. At least here.
As for vehicles, 95% times you loose them to shooting - not melee nades. Kanz are still garbage but at least they won't provide a free consolidation move and leave the enemy all bunched up for lobbas. So, it's a good thing, i guess. If only they were 25-30 ppm and not 50, they'd see some more table time.
The 25% rule applies in all types of terrain if the target is a Flyer, Super-heavy Vehicle, Flying Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature. All other targets count as being in cover if they are in or on the
terrain’s base, even if not 25% obsured
Templates/blasts effect all lvls of ruins - makes burna boyz, cannons and lobbas better
well, that worked exactly like it the whole 7-th edition. Yep, you can hit flyers now, though. However, people rarely use mysterious objectives. At least here.
As for vehicles, 95% times you loose them to shooting - not melee nades. Kanz are still garbage but at least they won't provide a free consolidation move and leave the enemy all bunched up for lobbas. So, it's a good thing, i guess. If only they were 25-30 ppm and not 50, they'd see some more table time.
Even the 50 wouldn't be so bad if they still hit at Str 10, no cowardly Grots, or cowardly grots also used MorkaGorkanaughts and Stompas since they are bigger, and free ranged weapon upgrades.
The 25% rule applies in all types of terrain if the target is a Flyer, Super-heavy Vehicle, Flying Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature. All other targets count as being in cover if they are in or on the
terrain’s base, even if not 25% obsured
Templates/blasts effect all lvls of ruins - makes burna boyz, cannons and lobbas better
well, that worked exactly like it the whole 7-th edition. Yep, you can hit flyers now, though. However, people rarely use mysterious objectives. At least here.
As for vehicles, 95% times you loose them to shooting - not melee nades. Kanz are still garbage but at least they won't provide a free consolidation move and leave the enemy all bunched up for lobbas. So, it's a good thing, i guess. If only they were 25-30 ppm and not 50, they'd see some more table time.
But...unless they change it, Kanz also get 'toe in cover' which is kind of neat. Combined with improved rules for their blasts/templates, reduced damage from grenades in CC....they're atleast a little better than before.
With the new FAQ nerfing of tankbusastas, you can only take 2 tankhammers. A unit of 5 with 1 meltabomb, 2 tankhammers and a nob w/klaw is 130. Still very formidable against vehicles...but twice the price, and missing 2 rokkits. We got hosed.
JimOnMars wrote: With the new FAQ nerfing of tankbusastas, you can only take 2 tankhammers. A unit of 5 with 1 meltabomb, 2 tankhammers and a nob w/klaw is 130. Still very formidable against vehicles...but twice the price, and missing 2 rokkits. We got hosed.
Yeah no kidding, if tankhammers were still a free switch it wouldn't be as hard a hit but man that sucks. One of the few ways we could ensure that we could crack IK or LR. Killsaws just went up in value.
Given the existence of Chaos/renegade knights I think a looted knight with lots of Dakka would be a very orky thing to do. Technically it would be an ally of convenience, but it would fit right in with the fluff.
hordrak wrote: Well, I tried to play the ghazcurion with tankbustas and had to cut a lot of upgrades. Now I'll just take manz in the warband and don't bother.
This could be the return of all Ork mobs are just PK delivery systems. The six mobs of Boyz are just ablative wounds for the PK nob in each Fearless mob.
My TB's rarely got in CC with vehicles anyways. Opps at my store would never let it happen. I started to put BC's on my TB Nobz for CC with non-vehicle units.
Cleatus wrote: Orks can't ally with themselves, right? They're just all the same faction. Therefore the battle brothers transport restriction doesn't apply here, right?
This.
The battlebrothers thing is meant to try and shutdown different factions of imperials using each other's transports. Not tell an ork with two CADs that painboy in CAD1 can't start with CAD2's nobz in battlewagon.
Wait. Wait. Wait. I think this is actually a problem.
There's Allies, and then there's an Allied Detachment. An Allied Detachment can be composed of any other faction, the only restriction being that it cannot be from the same faction as your primary detachment. However if you bring two or more detachments and/or formations, I think they're technically allies. And if they are from the same faction, they are Battle Brothers. Look at the Allies section or the 7th BRB.
Cleatus wrote: Orks can't ally with themselves, right? They're just all the same faction. Therefore the battle brothers transport restriction doesn't apply here, right?
This.
The battlebrothers thing is meant to try and shutdown different factions of imperials using each other's transports. Not tell an ork with two CADs that painboy in CAD1 can't start with CAD2's nobz in battlewagon.
Wait. Wait. Wait. I think this is actually a problem.
There's Allies, and then there's an Allied Detachment. An Allied Detachment can be composed of any other faction, the only restriction being that it cannot be from the same faction as your primary detachment. However if you bring two or more detachments and/or formations, I think they're technically allies. And if they are from the same faction, they are Battle Brothers. Look at the Allies section or the 7th BRB.
Someone please tell me I'm wrong about this?
I don't think its too much of a problem though. In either case, taking double CAD, or Orkurion - its not too hard to put the battlewagon in the detachment you actually want to have the units you want start in it.
chaosmarauder wrote: I don't think its too much of a problem though. In either case, taking double CAD, or Orkurion - its not too hard to put the battlewagon in the detachment you actually want to have the units you want start in it.
slip wrote: What vehicle would two tank hammers be more effective against over four rokkits?
Any 3HP AV10 Rear will go down to 2 tankhammers (6 attacks, 4 hits, usually 3-4 pens...barring bad rolls) + 1 melta (2/3 chance of pen). AV11 too. It's the SHVs that are the problem. And the 30 points.
Cleatus wrote: Orks can't ally with themselves, right? They're just all the same faction. Therefore the battle brothers transport restriction doesn't apply here, right?
This.
The battlebrothers thing is meant to try and shutdown different factions of imperials using each other's transports. Not tell an ork with two CADs that painboy in CAD1 can't start with CAD2's nobz in battlewagon.
Wait. Wait. Wait. I think this is actually a problem.
There's Allies, and then there's an Allied Detachment. An Allied Detachment can be composed of any other faction, the only restriction being that it cannot be from the same faction as your primary detachment. However if you bring two or more detachments and/or formations, I think they're technically allies. And if they are from the same faction, they are Battle Brothers. Look at the Allies section or the 7th BRB.
Someone please tell me I'm wrong about this?
You're right, but ITC rules allow you to take an allied detachment of your primary faction.
slip wrote: What vehicle would two tank hammers be more effective against over four rokkits?
Any 3HP AV10 Rear will go down to 2 tankhammers (6 attacks, 4 hits, usually 3-4 pens...barring bad rolls) + 1 melta (2/3 chance of pen). AV11 too. It's the SHVs that are the problem. And the 30 points.
Tankbustas still have Tank Hunters so that helps quite a bit.
slip wrote: What vehicle would two tank hammers be more effective against over four rokkits?
Any 3HP AV10 Rear will go down to 2 tankhammers (6 attacks, 4 hits, usually 3-4 pens...barring bad rolls) + 1 melta (2/3 chance of pen). AV11 too. It's the SHVs that are the problem. And the 30 points.
Tankbustas still have Tank Hunters so that helps quite a bit.
Yep. Our other big problem is MCs, like *cough* riptides. *cough*. 15 meltabombs exploding on a riptide is a damn fine sight, IMHO. Hopefully they will rescind this FAQ.
Has everyone here gone over to the page and posted complaints yet?
Does anyone know the stats of the new telleport weapon on the flier. Are they the same as the Big mek ones or are they better ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: All the leaks seem to have listed just the datasheet that makes a reference to a page that never seems to be in those leaks.
slip wrote: What vehicle would two tank hammers be more effective against over four rokkits?
Any 3HP AV10 Rear will go down to 2 tankhammers (6 attacks, 4 hits, usually 3-4 pens...barring bad rolls) + 1 melta (2/3 chance of pen). AV11 too. It's the SHVs that are the problem. And the 30 points.
Any 3 hp av10 will go down to regular attacks with tankhunter rerolls. Or to regular boyz. The problem are superheavies and monsters that don't. Now all you have left is overloading them with manz as TB can no longer deal with them point effectively.
Same? Including all the Tellyported rules and Blast size?
Isn't one of the results getting into close combat? EDIT: I was thinking of SAG.
If it was 24" and large blast, yes I could totally get behind that. If that's the case, definite skip for me. Glad I got the last cheaper box before my store restocked with the new one.
slip wrote: What vehicle would two tank hammers be more effective against over four rokkits?
Any 3HP AV10 Rear will go down to 2 tankhammers (6 attacks, 4 hits, usually 3-4 pens...barring bad rolls) + 1 melta (2/3 chance of pen). AV11 too. It's the SHVs that are the problem. And the 30 points.
Any 3 hp av10 will go down to regular attacks with tankhunter rerolls. Or to regular boyz. The problem are superheavies and monsters that don't. Now all you have left is overloading them with manz as TB can no longer deal with them point effectively.
Yep, and MANZ will get swiped by smash, so at best we break even.
Lobbas are good to spam wounds and barrage snipe out whatever priest or commissar they have for moral control. Soften them up so the boyz can charge in and sweep them.
Matthew wrote: Just a question, what's the best way to deal with infantry heavy guardsmen armies?
This is the time to pull out all those redundant anti infantry units we orks excel in but usually swap out for other selections to deal with tougher targets. Kommandos, Storm Boyz, Burnaboyz, Big Choppa Nobz, Big mobz of Choppa Boyz screened by Gretchen, units of 5 Lobbas, Lootas and heck the Burna Bomma should even shine here. Your Boyz should be marching up behind the Gretchen with support fire whittling down the numbers while the Kommandos and Stormboy mobz mess with the opponent's target priorities. Out-horde your opponant and bury him under dice and wounds. T4 against flashlights will do its thing and wow orks will be rolling their t shirt save.
well i guss my orks are back to uselessness. charge a character so the nob and unit can kill it, only to have the nob die, the boyz unable to contribute, lose by 2, run and get run down. this is not a fix games workshop.
Matthew wrote:Just a question, what's the best way to deal with infantry heavy guardsmen armies?
Lobbas are amazing, Barrage completely gets around ADL and can snipe the special weapons by placing the blast on the them. Boyz Squads will also beat them in combat.
Orock wrote:well i guss my orks are back to uselessness. charge a character so the nob and unit can kill it, only to have the nob die, the boyz unable to contribute, lose by 2, run and get run down. this is not a fix games workshop.
Matthew wrote:Just a question, what's the best way to deal with infantry heavy guardsmen armies?
Lobbas are amazing, Barrage completely gets around ADL and can snipe the special weapons by placing the blast on the them. Boyz Squads will also beat them in combat.
Orock wrote:well i guss my orks are back to uselessness. charge a character so the nob and unit can kill it, only to have the nob die, the boyz unable to contribute, lose by 2, run and get run down. this is not a fix games workshop.
Sigh..
I think that might have been a typo, apparently some of the questions are fethed up and they can't replace the picture because the facebook text version next to it says:
"Q: If a unit charges a single-character unit and a challenge is issued, do the non-character units still get to attack the single character?
A: Yes."
Orock wrote: well i guss my orks are back to uselessness. charge a character so the nob and unit can kill it, only to have the nob die, the boyz unable to contribute, lose by 2, run and get run down. this is not a fix games workshop.
Actually, if you go back to the facebook page that part was posted, you'll see in the description that this has already been edited. The description says that, yes, the "Nowhere to Hide" rule still applies. I was worried, too, when I read that, so I made sure to double-check the description.
Singleton Mosby wrote: I am really sad about the tankbusta nerf btw. Just finished 20 of them.
Same here, and I've got a game against Knights tonight..
Still will be using Bustas though, I might just have to add a Nob in future though, maybe a tankhammer.
Still I'll be trying something slightly different with my force tonight, will be using the Bossboyz formation, for bike mounted KFF's and Warboss, thrown in with bikers, Deffkoptas, Manz missile etc.. A fast force with good KFF coverage.
Also will be taking a Blitzabomma which works wonders when given outflank thanks to the Bossboyz rule. Always gets at least one bomb off before interceptor..
Singleton Mosby wrote: I am really sad about the tankbusta nerf btw. Just finished 20 of them.
Same here, and I've got a game against Knights tonight..
Still will be using Bustas though, I might just have to add a Nob in future though, maybe a tankhammer.
Still I'll be trying something slightly different with my force tonight, will be using the Bossboyz formation, for bike mounted KFF's and Warboss, thrown in with bikers, Deffkoptas, Manz missile etc.. A fast force with good KFF coverage.
Also will be taking a Blitzabomma which works wonders when given outflank thanks to the Bossboyz rule. Always gets at least one bomb off before interceptor..
Orock wrote: well i guss my orks are back to uselessness. charge a character so the nob and unit can kill it, only to have the nob die, the boyz unable to contribute, lose by 2, run and get run down. this is not a fix games workshop.
Sorry man, but the pictures on the warhammer 40,000 facebook page are wrong. GW posted that you should read the comment section on each picture for the correct answer. When you charge a single character unit, all models get to attack, even if there is a challenge.
Several of the pictures are wrong. GW is not able to change the pictures with out deleting everyone's feed back. This is why they have not taken down the false pictures.
Whats the ork strategy to killing imperial knights (and their equivalents)? MSU Tankbustas in trukks? Powerklaws are the main ork vehicle killer but against stomp attacks idk.
Whats the ork strategy to killing imperial knights (and their equivalents)? MSU Tankbustas in trukks? Powerklaws are the main ork vehicle killer but against stomp attacks idk.
Depends on the FAQ ruling.
It used to be sacrificial tankbustas. The stomp can't always cover the tankbustas if they can spread out evenly around it.
Now? Not much. The PK might get a couple of hull points, but it will probably die.
Whats the ork strategy to killing imperial knights (and their equivalents)? MSU Tankbustas in trukks? Powerklaws are the main ork vehicle killer but against stomp attacks idk.
Tankbustas, while currently nerfed under the recent FAQ draft, is more or less still our first line of defence because of how invaluable tank hunter is. At this point tankhammers make more sense and are needed in CC with knights. Killsaws on MANZ missiles may also potentially work, though in that case it really depends on how lucky the Knight player is in rolling his to hit rolls. It's a mix of whittling them down a bit with some of our ranged weapons like tankbusta rokkits and lootas and attempting to finish them off in CC.
Whats the ork strategy to killing imperial knights (and their equivalents)? MSU Tankbustas in trukks? Powerklaws are the main ork vehicle killer but against stomp attacks idk.
Tankbustas, while currently nerfed under the recent FAQ draft, is more or less still our first line of defence because of how invaluable tank hunter is. At this point tankhammers make more sense and are needed in CC with knights. Killsaws on MANZ missiles may also potentially work, though in that case it really depends on how lucky the Knight player is in rolling his to hit rolls. It's a mix of whittling them down a bit with some of our ranged weapons like tankbusta rokkits and lootas and attempting to finish them off in CC.
Holy krap...just figgured somethin'...put a killsaw mek in with tankbustas...that will be 3 attacks (st7) with armorbane & tankhunter. So each hit has 2d6+7 (rerollable) on penetrating...almost as good as the melta bombs.
Whats the ork strategy to killing imperial knights (and their equivalents)? MSU Tankbustas in trukks? Powerklaws are the main ork vehicle killer but against stomp attacks idk.
Tankbustas, while currently nerfed under the recent FAQ draft, is more or less still our first line of defence because of how invaluable tank hunter is. At this point tankhammers make more sense and are needed in CC with knights. Killsaws on MANZ missiles may also potentially work, though in that case it really depends on how lucky the Knight player is in rolling his to hit rolls. It's a mix of whittling them down a bit with some of our ranged weapons like tankbusta rokkits and lootas and attempting to finish them off in CC.
Holy krap...just figgured somethin'...put a killsaw mek in with tankbustas...that will be 3 attacks (st7) with armorbane & tankhunter. So each hit has 2d6+7 (rerollable) on penetrating...almost as good as the melta bombs.
That's actually a really good idea. Nice catch JimOnMars! A nice way to work around our current predicament.
Whats the ork strategy to killing imperial knights (and their equivalents)? MSU Tankbustas in trukks? Powerklaws are the main ork vehicle killer but against stomp attacks idk.
Tankbustas, while currently nerfed under the recent FAQ draft, is more or less still our first line of defence because of how invaluable tank hunter is. At this point tankhammers make more sense and are needed in CC with knights. Killsaws on MANZ missiles may also potentially work, though in that case it really depends on how lucky the Knight player is in rolling his to hit rolls. It's a mix of whittling them down a bit with some of our ranged weapons like tankbusta rokkits and lootas and attempting to finish them off in CC.
Holy krap...just figgured somethin'...put a killsaw mek in with tankbustas...that will be 3 attacks (st7) with armorbane & tankhunter. So each hit has 2d6+7 (rerollable) on penetrating...almost as good as the melta bombs.
Good idea. Mini Meks aren't IC's either, so no need to worry about any of those shenanigans or FAQ rules changes.
Jeez, you're right. If that's the case I'll probably say screw it to the tankbusta nob and just put a mek with a killsaw in there. Sure, he can't take a bosspole, but they're suicide squads anyway.
Why not just take a Nob with a PK? The cost of a mek with a killsaw is 45 points compared to a tankbusta nob which is 48 points, but is also s9 with 1 more attack, a rokket launcha and 2 wounds. I mean I get that armorbane is better then having 1 more point of strength for attacking vehicles, but the Nob is far more versatile and is at least s8 so he can instant death t4 guys he ends up fighting which for 3 points I think is worth it.
Killsaw mek is 45 pts for a one wound model. And it's likely that a nob is better at killing knights than a mek. Especially when getting charged. He can also occasionally survive stomps unlike mek.
Really, though, still a great idea! Maybe even better with putting a MA warboss in it? S10 PK that is AB? Oh yes. Worried about pre-stomps? Give him a big choppa, and you get I4 S8 hits before the stomps come down. Maybe not the most HQ efficient option, but food for thought.
koooaei wrote: Killsaw mek is 45 pts for a one wound model. And it's likely that a nob is better at killing knights than a mek. Especially when getting charged. He can also occasionally survive stomps unlike mek.
This is the first thing that came to mind when I saw that.
Hey all, sorry to interrupt the flow of FAQ hate, which is totally justified but has been explained to me that the grenade combat thing is almost certainly and error but I just wanted to draw your attention to something.
I'm not sure on the rules here for pointing you all to another thread so I won't link it but over in general discussion I have a topic called - death from the skies: best thing to happen to orks in 7th ed.
The title is self explanatory, the main post and my reply post in it summarise, hopefully, why I feel we have gotten a few nice things from that book. It does not fix our issues, but it at least is a bone thrown in our direction.
Would love our opinions because you've all helped me play my boyz so much.
koooaei wrote: Killsaw mek is 45 pts for a one wound model. And it's likely that a nob is better at killing knights than a mek. Especially when getting charged. He can also occasionally survive stomps unlike mek.
So true. But the Mek idea is a nice one, especially in the larger units....altough then you'll also need a Nob.
And you end up with a 200 pt unit of 6+ dudes in a paper-thin truck that is only good at killing vehicles.
I think we're better off with Killsaw manz. 4-5 will do. Leave Tankbustas in small squads for that occasional meltabomb and a bunch of rokkits. They will still wreck av10 like no big deal, still shoot a bit but they're not suited to killing SHW no more.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Why not just take a Nob with a PK? The cost of a mek with a killsaw is 45 points compared to a tankbusta nob which is 48 points, but is also s9 with 1 more attack, a rokket launcha and 2 wounds. I mean I get that armorbane is better then having 1 more point of strength for attacking vehicles, but the Nob is far more versatile and is at least s8 so he can instant death t4 guys he ends up fighting which for 3 points I think is worth it.
The problem is that the Tankbusta Nob does not have a melee weapon to trade for a PK. He only has a rokkit launcha, just like the rest of his unit. The only legal way to give him a PK is to upgrade a Tankbusta with a Tankhammer, then make him a Nob, then give him a PK. 13+15+10+25 = 63 points. Which is ridiculous.
Yes, it's an oversight and you could argue RAI, but that's what it says in the codex.
Let's hope that an Ork FAQ is going to happen soon which will fix this problem (along with several others in the Ork codex).
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Why not just take a Nob with a PK? The cost of a mek with a killsaw is 45 points compared to a tankbusta nob which is 48 points, but is also s9 with 1 more attack, a rokket launcha and 2 wounds. I mean I get that armorbane is better then having 1 more point of strength for attacking vehicles, but the Nob is far more versatile and is at least s8 so he can instant death t4 guys he ends up fighting which for 3 points I think is worth it.
The problem is that the Tankbusta Nob does not have a melee weapon to trade for a PK. He only has a rokkit launcha, just like the rest of his unit. The only legal way to give him a PK is to upgrade a Tankbusta with a Tankhammer, then make him a Nob, then give him a PK. 13+15+10+25 = 63 points. Which is ridiculous.
Yes, it's an oversight and you could argue RAI, but that's what it says in the codex.
Let's hope that an Ork FAQ is going to happen soon which will fix this problem (along with several others in the Ork codex).
But wouldn't the nob be treated as he has a close combat weapon, because he has nothing else in his inventory? And in that manner, wouldn't he be able to swap that out for those upgrades?
Let's hope that an Ork FAQ is going to happen soon which will fix this problem (along with several others in the Ork codex).
I'm dreading this considering how much the FAQ hurt us. Next thing we know, mob rule will only work on grots, cybork body stacked with a painboy will lower toughness by 1, the blitza-bommer will only be able to drop bombs off the table, and bosspoles will become a melee weapon.
Since GW has said the the codex FAQ are going to be done in the same manner as the Rule book FAQ, I'd suggest we really tell GW what we want changed in the codex and how we want it change. We stand to make a lot of improvement if the community pushes hard on certain issues.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Why not just take a Nob with a PK? The cost of a mek with a killsaw is 45 points compared to a tankbusta nob which is 48 points, but is also s9 with 1 more attack, a rokket launcha and 2 wounds. I mean I get that armorbane is better then having 1 more point of strength for attacking vehicles, but the Nob is far more versatile and is at least s8 so he can instant death t4 guys he ends up fighting which for 3 points I think is worth it.
The problem is that the Tankbusta Nob does not have a melee weapon to trade for a PK. He only has a rokkit launcha, just like the rest of his unit. The only legal way to give him a PK is to upgrade a Tankbusta with a Tankhammer, then make him a Nob, then give him a PK. 13+15+10+25 = 63 points. Which is ridiculous.
Yes, it's an oversight and you could argue RAI, but that's what it says in the codex.
Let's hope that an Ork FAQ is going to happen soon which will fix this problem (along with several others in the Ork codex).
But wouldn't the nob be treated as he has a close combat weapon, because he has nothing else in his inventory? And in that manner, wouldn't he be able to swap that out for those upgrades?
No. He has a ranged weapon, the rokkit launcha. He and the other Tankbustas fight in CC the same way that Shoota Boyz do. He does not have a melee weapon to trade by default, so he cannot take a PK unless you give him a melee weapon first. Hopefully this gets FAQ'd -- for the better.
Cleatus wrote: He has a ranged weapon, the rokkit launcha. He and the other Tankbustas fight in CC the same way that Shoota Boyz do. He does not have a melee weapon to trade by default, so he cannot take a PK unless you give him a melee weapon first. Hopefully this gets FAQ'd -- for the better.
Did anybody think to ask that question? I wasn't looking for the grenade nerf, so I never thought to take a PK with the nob.
Well, i'm glad i've never come to actually buying tankbustas - just used rokkit and BS models for them. The blitza bomber nerf hurts, however, mine is made from a ww2 flyer and is not painted yet, so it can become any plane. Think that just a regular dakkajet will do as a source of -1 to enemy reserves and some mediocre shooting.
No. He has a ranged weapon, the rokkit launcha. He and the other Tankbustas fight in CC the same way that Shoota Boyz do. He does not have a melee weapon to trade by default, so he cannot take a PK unless you give him a melee weapon first. Hopefully this gets FAQ'd -- for the better.
This isn't the only interpretation.
It says clearly in the Tankbusta section that the Nob "may take a weapon from the melee list (with page reference).
In the Melee list, it mentions at the top that the weapon can be changed. But I think the first statement clearly trumps the second. The codex says "may be taken" and I think that trumps our worry that he doesn't have a CC weapon to trade.
More importantly, you can't conga line the VSG now. Actually I think it's worded that if so much as one model is out of range of the VSG's 12" bubble, then the whole unit forfeits the VSG.
Groan... I was using a vsg to offer extra protection to a blitz brigade parking lot full of lootas, flash gitz and tankbustas.
Only used the list once and really enjoyed it... shame
my vsg was a pimping plasma ball lamp as well.
No. He has a ranged weapon, the rokkit launcha. He and the other Tankbustas fight in CC the same way that Shoota Boyz do. He does not have a melee weapon to trade by default, so he cannot take a PK unless you give him a melee weapon first. Hopefully this gets FAQ'd -- for the better.
This isn't the only interpretation.
It says clearly in the Tankbusta section that the Nob "may take a weapon from the melee list (with page reference).
In the Melee list, it mentions at the top that the weapon can be changed. But I think the first statement clearly trumps the second. The codex says "may be taken" and I think that trumps our worry that he doesn't have a CC weapon to trade.
That's an interesting interpretation. Not how I read it, but I'm not going to get into a rules debate here. Feel free to start a thread in YMDC if you want.
When GW asks for Ork codex specific questions perhaps we can get a clarification.
Never used one, so I'm neutral to this nerf. The things that realy need answering are tankbusta nob weapon swap, the mechanism of Str D being downgraded by ramshakle and if you can swap the warboss in the ork core formation for Grukk of Ghaz (I know it's prety unlikely, but one can still dream).
I think the general rulebook FAQ stated that Ramshackle does indeed downgrade D shots, and that Grukk and Ghaz can't be taken as a Warboss in the Great Waaagh! Band detachment.
Well, I might have to take a second look if that is the case. Still, one minor issue - Da Fixer Uppers and the Mek&Big mek only part. Not game changing, but needs to get fixed.
I may end up snagging one as giving my opponent a -1 to reserves is very tempting (there is a regular who plays KDK ). I am very tempted to try out the new one, to be honest. May not be the best use of points, but I'd like to see how it runs in a game before I really judge it.
0%. I want objectives. For 35 pts, I get an objective secured fast vehicle that can tank shock and reroll dangerous terrain. I can get 4 of these for a blastajet.
I have to agree with Jim. I really only take one flyer at a time, and that's the bomber, and it's never really performed spectacularly, only fairly at best (save for one game where it routinely killed Lieutenants hiden in blobs somehow.)
Better to just go with fast attack and objective grabbing. I wouldn't bother trying to counter other fliers with our fliers, anyway. One of the good things we somehow have is decent anti-air with lootas and traktor kannons.
I don't have enough money for this, but if I was building a tournament list with unlimited funds I would scrap tankbustas and build Meganobz. You just switch from best to second best.
Each killsaw is 4 S8 Armourbane attacks, or 5 S9 2D6 attacks on the charge. That is no joke, and it's a savage and effective unit against anything it hits for a reasonable price.
S8 + 2d6 AP1 vs AV13 = 26/36 = 72.22~% to Penetrate
S8 Meltabomb w/ Tank Hunters (reroll to Glance) = 1-(5/6) = 1/6
(1/6) * (5/6) = 13.8~%
13.8~% + 83.33~% = 97.22~% to Glance
S8 Meltabomb w/ Tank Hunters (reroll to Pen) = 1-(26/36) = .27~
(.27~) * (.722~) = 20%
20% + 72.22~% = 92.28% to Pen
Average Hull Points dealt in combat by 1 Tankbusta Meltabomb:
( 50% to hit ) * ( 97.22~% to Glance ) = .4861~
( 50% to hit ) * ( 92.28% to Pen ) * ( 1/3 chance to Explode ) * [(1+2+3)/3] = .3076
.7937 Hull Points stripped on average at Init 1 by Tankbusta
1.125 average hull points stripped per turn of combat at initiative 2 by 1 tankbusta with tankhammer that charged that turn
Spoiler:
.5*[.5+(.5*.5)] = .375 per attack
.375 * 3 = 1.125
No chance to explode due to AP3
.83333 average hull points stripped per turn of combat at initiative 2 by 1 tankbusta with tankhammer that did not charge
Spoiler:
.5*[.33+(.66*.33)]=.278 per attack
.278 * 2 = .833
2.148~ Average Hull Points stripped per turn of combat at Initiative 1 by 1 MAN w/ Chainfist
2.98594~ Hull Points stripped per turn of combat at Initiative 1 by 1 MAN w/ Chainfist on the Assault
S8 + 2d6 AP2 vs AV13 = 30/36 = 83.33~% to Glance per hit
S8 + 2d6 AP2 vs AV13 = 26/36 = 72.22~% to Penetrate per hit
Average Hull Points dealt in combat by 1 MAN w/ Chainfist:
( 50% to hit ) * ( 83.33~% to Glance ) = .416~
( 50% to hit ) * ( 72.22% to Pen ) * ( 1/6 chance to Explode ) * [(1+2+3)/3] = .12
.416~ + .12 = .537 Hull Points per attack
.537 * 4 = 2.148~ Hull Points stripped per turn of combat at Initiative 1 by 1 MAN w/ Chainfist
S9 Chainfist (Furious Charge)
S9 + 2d6 AP2 vs AV13 = 33/36 = 91.6~% to Glance per hit
S9 + 2d6 AP2 vs AV13 = 30/36 = 83.33~% to Penetrate per hit
Average Hull Points dealt in combat by 1 MAN w/ Chainfist on the Charge:
( 50% to hit ) * ( 91.6~% to Glance ) = .4583~
( 50% to hit ) * ( 83.33~% to Pen ) * (1/6 chance to Explode) * [(1+2+3)/3] = .138~
.4583~ + .138~ = .59718~ Hull Points per attack
.59718~ * 5 = 2.98594~ Hull Points stripped per turn of combat at Initiative 1 by 1 MAN w/ Chainfist on the Assault
.583 Hull points damaged on average per turn of combat by MAN w/ Powerfist
1.22~ Hull points damaged on average per turn of combat by MAN w/ Powerfist in the Assault
Spoiler:
MANz vs AV13 superheavy walker
S8 Power Fist = .5*.33 chance to Glan = 16.6~% chance to Glance per hit
S8 Power Fist = .5*.16 chance to Pen = 8.3~% chance to Penetrate per hit
Average HP stripped per turn of combat per MAN w/ Powerfist=
.16~ * 3 = .5 Hull Points
( .083~ * 3 ) * .16 * [(1+2+3)/3] = .083 Hull Points
.5 + .083 = .583 Hull points damaged on average per turn of combat by MAN w/ Powerfist
S9 Power Fist = .5*.5 chance to Glan = 25% chance to Glance per hit
S9 Power Fist = .5*.33 chance to Pen = 16.6~% chance to Penetrate per hit
Average HP per turn of combat per MAN w/ Powerfist on charge =
.25 * 4 = 1 Hull Point
(.16~ * 4 ) * .16 * [(1+2+3)/3] = .22~ Hull Pointz
1 + .22~ = 1.22~ Hull points damaged on average per turn of combat by MAN w/ Powerfist in the Assault
I honestly prefer MANz anyway, when it comes to big game hunting. They're more likely to actually get into CC with the tank if you stick them in a trukk. Leave tankbustas for the lighter tanks that the MANz shouldn't have to bother with.
BAN wrote: Groan... I was using a vsg to offer extra protection to a blitz brigade parking lot full of lootas, flash gitz and tankbustas.
Only used the list once and really enjoyed it... shame
my vsg was a pimping plasma ball lamp as well.
It still works with vehicles. Just not grants immunity to plasma and haywire any more.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I am sad to see our entire codex just boiling down to spamming meganobz.
I have 3 squads of elites in my army assembled/painted
Burnas
Kommandos
Big Choppa Nobs (footslogging, not on bikes)
In my defense I started on the previous codex, back when those units were kinda nice. But getting back in the swing of things, finding out I need 2 squads of 10 tankbustas and 6 MANZ in a trukk to even think about playing is annoying. Meta shifts are difficult in Warhammer compared to say, video games because there is a huge effort into buying and painting. Its a lot of money to switch my entire elite choices, and how long before THAT even goes out the window?
koooaei wrote: Well, i'm glad i've never come to actually buying tankbustas - just used rokkit and BS models for them. The blitza bomber nerf hurts, however, mine is made from a ww2 flyer and is not painted yet, so it can become any plane. Think that just a regular dakkajet will do as a source of -1 to enemy reserves and some mediocre shooting.
The models I'm currently using as TB's are the same ones I used as Lootas in the last codex. MorkaGorka slugga choppa Boyz with the slugga removed and an IG missile in its place (painted blue of course!). More than any other army Orks lets you get away with "counts as" better than anyone else.
What's more competitive, a unit of Burna Boyz in a Battlewagon, or a unit of Nobs with Kombi-Skorchas in a Trukk (or Battlewagon)?
One offers lots of cheap Str4 AP5 templates. Good for killing infantry, but Orks already have lots of options for that. They also have AP3 CCW's.
The other offers 2W models with Str5 AP4 templates (one use), and Shootas. No slouches in CC either.
Neither of these units is considered "good", mostly because they are over-costed. Given the choice which is the better option?
Tankbustas are still just as good and useful... Instead of trying to spend a ton of points on nobs, pks and tank hammers because we lost their meltabomb spam in CC, load 10 up in a trukk, max out the bomb squigs and just drive around plinking rokkits at things. That's how ive always played them and they are a unit no one wants to ignore because they shred light transports and down FMC's like its their job (because it is!). Don't get discouraged over the meltabomb ruling, ive honestly never been successful in getting a trukk full of them into CC with anything big anyway because the person I play against has been in 40k long enough to know not to let anything called a "tank busta" anywhere near a tank. Honestly, the "nerf" hasn't changed anything IMO, keep a unit in your army and keep em cheap they will always earn their points back with something.
Side note, I want to build up a zhardsnarf conversion and try him out. im limited on my bikes right now so im trying to decide if I should run one big squad with zhard and painboy, and two min size units for troops, or two medium sized bike troops and stick zhard with something beefier in CC like a small nob biker squad with the painboy?
Bomb squigs are str 8, non melta, and don't do much to knights/land raiders. And their shooting is not reliable for taking knights down. It is a huge change.
Cleatus wrote: What's more competitive, a unit of Burna Boyz in a Battlewagon, or a unit of Nobs with Kombi-Skorchas in a Trukk (or Battlewagon)?
One offers lots of cheap Str4 AP5 templates. Good for killing infantry, but Orks already have lots of options for that. They also have AP3 CCW's.
The other offers 2W models with Str5 AP4 templates (one use), and Shootas. No slouches in CC either.
Neither of these units is considered "good", mostly because they are over-costed. Given the choice which is the better option?
Good question... Honestly I would have to side with the nobs in a trukk for the main sake of survivability. A battle wagon does have a 14/12/10 stat line, but for the burnas to be any good at all, you have to drive up to burning distance, and at that range, taking out the wagon is almost just as easy as blasting a trukk. Also, you can give the nobs upgrades for close combat. If you wanted to stay cheap, give a few big choppas. Never underestimate the power of a couple of big choppas. They hit with the strength of an autocannon on the charge, and just ask a guard player how much they love autocannons.
Burna boys in a battle wagon:
Pros:
More flamers for fewer points.
Can fire multiple times
AP 3 in close combat if they didn't fire that turn
Battle wagon is harder to kill at range
Cons:
Battle wagon costs over 3x more than a trukk, and getting 15 burna boys is super overkill
Only S 4 AP 5 shooting
Can only ever have a 6+ save
No upgrades unless you wanted to make one a mek
Lack of survivability means you can lose a lot if your wagon explodes.
No character (unless you made one a mek), and absolutely no way to get a bosspole for helping morale
Lack of melee strength means unable to take on various targets
Uses a Heavy slot
Nobz in a trukk:
Pros:
Multiple wounds means less model losses if your trukk explodes.
Scorchas are S 5 AP 4
Ability to upgrade to a 4+ save
Ability to upgrade melee combat and get S 7 choppas, or S 9 powerklaws
Variety of upgrades means ability to take on various targets
Always comes with a character that can take a bosspole for helping morale
Speed of the truck helps to zoom to best locations if firing is not possible this turn
Does not use a Heavy slot
Cons:
Can only shoot scorchas once
Fewer models for fewer flamers
No generic AP 3 for not shooting
Trukk is easier to kill at range if left in the open
Whipping up some example units:
5 Nobz: All with Kombi Scorchas, big choppas, and the boss with a bosspole all in a Trukk with a RR costs 20 meltaguns, (22 if you wanted to give them a 4+)
15 Burna Boyz: In a Battle Wagon with a RR costs 35.5 meltaguns. (27.5 if you did just 10 boyz)
So they're both hefty options, points-wise.
If you want to use Burna Boyz (Who can be fantastic morale weapons, making your opponent move his swarms away in fear), I think using fewer of them in trukks might be best. 11.5 meltaguns gets you 5 in a trukk with a RR. You can get three of these for under the price of 15 in a wagon, and you can threaten more space. If you hit a horde with 5 flamers, and lets say you can get 4 guys per template, that's still 20 hits.
That's my two cents, anyways. Sorry for the lengthy response!
Just had an awesome game today with my Biker/Bully boyz list backed by a Renegade knight. I was playing against my friend who brought the Skyhammer (maxed out assault marines), a White Scars CAD featuring two grav centurion squads with a libby in each in addition to a knight.
It was close all around with centurions and meganobz dying left and right and it all came down to one very important move made soley out of desperation on my part.
Its turn the end of turn 5 on my turn. I have Zhadsnark with 1 wounded biker nob beside him, 2 mega nobz out in the middle of nowhere, a immobilized gun wagon that cant hurt anything with its big shoota and my renegade knight which is out of range to do much.
I am down by four points and all seems lost. Figuring I have lost a great game I decide to send in Zhadsnark for one last charge into oblivion (Cuz he aint no Grot!). He and his buddy (the sole surviving biker besides Zhadsnark) charge in towards the knight. The knight swings 3 times with its strength D sword and..... 1 hit. He rolls a 5 and mulches the poor Nob right off his bike.
Zhadsnark liked that Nob.Zhadsnark was not happy to see his entire WAAAGGHHH broken by this single knight that had wrought so much destruction on his forces. He goes to attack before the stomps go off and perhaps just maybe take this thing out with him. The knight only has 2 HP left
5 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s... 2 hits from his i4 power klaw. He needs 2 3 ups to take the beast down. I roll the dice and am greeted with a 3 and a 5. The great beast dies and there is much rejoicing. Zhadsnark drove in and out of the knight's reach as he sawed his way through its legs causing it to fall.
Surely Zhadsnark would be caught in the explosion and die securing slay the warlord and the win for my friend. We roll the scatter and it goes 11 inches away from where it was right towards two Joakero hiding in a ruin. 1 monkey is destroyed entirely by the blast with a 6, but the other manages to survive.
What an epic achievement for Zhadsnark. Even when I knew I would lose I would go home with a moral victory. At the end of my turn I was down by three points and all seemed lost. We rolled to continue and we rolled a 4.
The next turn consisted of a pissed off monkey firing a lascanon shot and missing Zhadsnark and a sole assualt marine failing a dangerous terrain check and dying. At the end of my turn I manage to score 2 points and get ascendancy for d3. I need a 3 or higher to win and get just that.
After an epic match and incredibly close game it comes down to Zhadsnark clutching it for the team as he takes down the knight, secures an objective and gets linebreaker.
---
In conclusion all praise to bully boyz and bikers. Also the Renegade knight is a great addition to Ork armies I find.
Where can we whine to get more close combat weapon options (other than big chopa and PK)? I just saw the 8 points axe for wulfen and I am super jealous.
thenewgozoku wrote: Where can we whine to get more close combat weapon options (other than big chopa and PK)? I just saw the 8 points axe for wulfen and I am super jealous.
Never gonna happen. 'Cos we aint space marines. Or Eldar. Or Tau.
I'd be happy if we get a codex option for painboss and pain boys. Painboys being like the Mek but 25pts and gives the unit fnp. And pain boss having improved doc tools that are a version of the pk but poison 2+ and ap2. Seriously that claw on that model is huge!!!
Another option i would like to see is stikk bomb launcher on all vehicles changed to stick bomb flinga. The bit is in every single ork vehicle sprue and would be a huge benefit to weak ork armor by giving all ork vehicles a single 5++ on the first pen or glance each turn.
I'm probably going to take seven or eight in a squad when I run them, though I'd probably only do that in a vehicle-heavy list since they're as squishy as boyz and a higher priority target.
I'd not take burnas at all due to ld7. Any glance on a truck or wagon and they're 50/50 to not shoot at all. Combined with all the other disadvantages, i'd probably go for meganobz with an occasional combi-skorcha. Yep, they're ld7 too but at least you're just paying 5 pt for this scorcha.
True. Every time I use Meganobz, I give them kombi-scorchas. Only 5 points for a one time heavy flamer? Yes please. It's great to thin a horde you're facing, and let's not forget that AP 4 is great against Necrons (if they're a big part of your local metta)
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Just had an awesome game today with my Biker/Bully boyz list backed by a Renegade knight. I was playing against my friend who brought the Skyhammer (maxed out assault marines), a White Scars CAD featuring two grav centurion squads with a libby in each in addition to a knight.
It was close all around with centurions and meganobz dying left and right and it all came down to one very important move made soley out of desperation on my part.
Its turn the end of turn 5 on my turn. I have Zhadsnark with 1 wounded biker nob beside him, 2 mega nobz out in the middle of nowhere, a immobilized gun wagon that cant hurt anything with its big shoota and my renegade knight which is out of range to do much.
I am down by four points and all seems lost. Figuring I have lost a great game I decide to send in Zhadsnark for one last charge into oblivion (Cuz he aint no Grot!). He and his buddy (the sole surviving biker besides Zhadsnark) charge in towards the knight. The knight swings 3 times with its strength D sword and..... 1 hit. He rolls a 5 and mulches the poor Nob right off his bike.
Zhadsnark liked that Nob.Zhadsnark was not happy to see his entire WAAAGGHHH broken by this single knight that had wrought so much destruction on his forces. He goes to attack before the stomps go off and perhaps just maybe take this thing out with him. The knight only has 2 HP left
5 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s... 2 hits from his i4 power klaw. He needs 2 3 ups to take the beast down. I roll the dice and am greeted with a 3 and a 5. The great beast dies and there is much rejoicing. Zhadsnark drove in and out of the knight's reach as he sawed his way through its legs causing it to fall.
Surely Zhadsnark would be caught in the explosion and die securing slay the warlord and the win for my friend. We roll the scatter and it goes 11 inches away from where it was right towards two Joakero hiding in a ruin. 1 monkey is destroyed entirely by the blast with a 6, but the other manages to survive.
What an epic achievement for Zhadsnark. Even when I knew I would lose I would go home with a moral victory. At the end of my turn I was down by three points and all seemed lost. We rolled to continue and we rolled a 4.
The next turn consisted of a pissed off monkey firing a lascanon shot and missing Zhadsnark and a sole assualt marine failing a dangerous terrain check and dying. At the end of my turn I manage to score 2 points and get ascendancy for d3. I need a 3 or higher to win and get just that.
After an epic match and incredibly close game it comes down to Zhadsnark clutching it for the team as he takes down the knight, secures an objective and gets linebreaker.
---
In conclusion all praise to bully boyz and bikers. Also the Renegade knight is a great addition to Ork armies I find.
These games are the best games! And you already won at the beginning because you got to play and/or are playing Orks. Good job!
I was thinking about running bully boyz in a bunch of gunwagons but now, it seems, they can't start a game inside, so will have to stick to either trukks or battlewagons. Thinking about trukks + VSG.
koooaei wrote: I was thinking about running bully boyz in a bunch of gunwagons but now, it seems, they can't start a game inside, so will have to stick to either trukks or battlewagons. Thinking about trukks + VSG.
Wait for the faq clarification. Most people believe the same codex is not battle brother with itself. It's just one army with the same faction. As is no organized event has made any changes to thier play rules until it's clarified.
koooaei wrote: I was thinking about running bully boyz in a bunch of gunwagons but now, it seems, they can't start a game inside, so will have to stick to either trukks or battlewagons. Thinking about trukks + VSG.
Bully boyz in gun wagons win games. The bull boyz formations fixes their leadership gives them fear (meh) and gives then the huge boost from WS 4 to 5. Just bring other things to draw fire and they should make it to combat.
Alright then. What's good for Orks against Tau? I never got the chance to play them before, since they were still pretty new prior to my hobby hiatus. But now I have a mate who's putting together a Tau army and, tbh, I'm a bit worried about getting shot to bits before I get the chance to batter them up close.
I agree with the brigade. The one tau player we have admits freely that high AV is the bane of tau. They just don't have a load of weapons to deal with it at a long range like they want to.
Normally, my opinion on battle wagons is that they're too expensive, and die just as easily up close (which is where they're going), but tau are a different story. One of their main anti-tank weapons are fusion blasters, which require close range. So a wall of AV 14 driving towards his lines at full speed (with scout no less) is a terrifying sight for Tau.
Yeah, I'm building a blitz brigade specifically for Tau. Meganobz with a kff work wonders as well, and I'd definitely recommend heavy armor to help shrug off their S5 AP5 shots, otherwise the boyz will die too quick.
So, they might not even be nerfed by this change; in fact they may be able to attack multiple times per model with them.... Pfffff, the one time GWs rule mistakes helps a lower-tier faction
Swampmist wrote: So, they might not even be nerfed by this change; in fact they may be able to attack multiple times per model with them.... Pfffff, the one time GWs rule mistakes helps a lower-tier faction
Hopefully Mork & Gork are sitting on them right now. That's the best hope we have at the moment...unfortunately.
If you run them together with a kdk formation of dogs, than yes. You basically rush the field and slaughter stuff with psy shreiks than let meganobz and tankbustas deal with vehicles and SHW.
With the cyclopia cabal formation, would maybe running them behind some Ork bikerstar work too without spending too many points on adding in KDK hounds and things as well? I was wondering the same thing myself since they would give us some awesome psychic utility, and modeling up some shamanistic techno-barbarians on bikes would be pretty fun.
Anyone have any experience using it or playing against it?
Since the cabal can't join an ork unit I don't think its worth it since you will want to use the cabal to use psychic buffs to create a deathstar.
Put them on bikes and try for Iron arm, sanctuary, invisiblity in a unit of 20 khorne dogs gives them scout, fearless, 40 wounds, 4++, invisible, and like 60 str 8 attacks. Their only weakness would be no hit-and-run so theres a chance the deathstar could be tied up but thats about it.
-oh and once you factor in blood tithe the dogs will also be feel no pain
I'd rather not mix orks with KDK, but play KDK on it's own. The only non-orky thing that is realy worth adding is the Renegade Knight. Sorcerers can't cast blessings on orks and everithing cast at the enemy (if they are not Necrons or Tau) will easily be dispelled.
Even the renegade knight thing I'm not too sure on, I think these days if your units don't synergize (buff each other somehow) then its not worth it. By taking a knight I think you are taking points away that could be better used to make the rest of your army stronger/faster somehow. I'd take a stompa instead to get the fearless bubble.
chaosmarauder wrote: Even the renegade knight thing I'm not too sure on, I think these days if your units don't synergize (buff each other somehow) then its not worth it. By taking a knight I think you are taking points away that could be better used to make the rest of your army stronger/faster somehow. I'd take a stompa instead to get the fearless bubble.
I have used the renegade a fair bit and I have found it a solid addition to ork armies. It's powerful and reliable long range firepower. Only stompa I like compared to it would be the Kustom stompa which is banned like half the time lol.
Plus just think of how fun it would be to make a renegade knight proppa orky! Once I actually have enough points for apoc I think my deffskullz are gonna loot a knight. Kitbashing it with deff dread bits would looks awesome.
with the faq clarifying summoning of FMC's using ML2 weirdboyz to summon greater daemons shenanigans took a bit of a buff. Additionally you can choose which of the three thirster's to summon as per the update in wulfen.
using 3+ ML2 weirdboyz standing around 10 or more ere we go boyz is gonna give you a good chance of rolling possession and with 10+ warp charge you should be easily able to get it to cast. Sure its an auto perils but possession laughs in the face of perils.
A D-weapon toting flying maniac adds quite something to an ork army. Particularly when you're like me playing in a no forgeworld meta.
I hope Orks aren't among the first 3 or 4 codex updated. We might be safer after GW has sorted out is power level and started their next power creep. Being first is da worst.
Honestly it'd be neat if we got some psyker powers worth taking. I'd love to try out a psyker ork army build but unless I ally in CSM there's really no way to do that. Considering how many new psyker powers GW has been vomitting out I'd say our chances aren't too bad. Granted, they'll just turn aroubd and give SM the same powers but better and cheaper because marines are obviously the vest psykers in the galaxy.
Weirdboy led snakebit lists, blood axes with looted imperial vehicles again, Goff nob armies, speed freak bikes lists without having to take Zhadsnark. Really blows my mind that they don't even attempt that kind of stuff.
Well to be fair zhardsnark became popular when GW took away wazdakka.
The best psychic power I had for Orks was taking sanctic demonlogy and rolling hammerhand. Orks definitely need a similar power for themselves.
Right now blobs of boys with str3 ap- atks isn't really cutting it anymore even in a greentide spam list with fnp and Lukky stikk +1 ws. If it wasn't for the str8 pk nobs carrying all the weight. However the one time I had hammerhand in a tide I'm running around with str5 or str6 on charge blob of boys and str10 pk nobs putting a lot more hurt out even with only a few ap2 klaws.
This is a power weirdboyz need other then the multiple versions of the same witch fires. Wierdboyz need a force multiplier so personally I'd like a template psychic power(psychic vomit, this should be our primaris it's the most iconic weirdboy power), beam psychic power (kill bolt) the deepstrike psychic power(da jump), the above +str type psychic power (aka improved warpath), something that adds defense (but not fnp)such as 4+ invul to psychers unit (da warpead), a malediction that reduces a single Model toughness by 2 or armour value by 2(new and improved eadbanger) a power that allows models with err we go within 12in of the psycher to reroll to hit (aka Orks have crap bs and almost no twinlinked options for shooting in their entire codex)(call it da waaagh)
That's actually not half bad. I'd consider taking that psyker if I could tailor him into a few shooty lists, hoping for the TL spell. If not, I could just toss him into some choppy boyz and have a go. I usually do put him with shootas anyway on the rare occasion I break him out.
He definitely needs more buff powers. Hell, maybe even give him a passive that all orks within 12" get +1 strength and attack if he's the warlord- y'know, tying it into the whole gestalt thing.
Vitali Advenil wrote: That's actually not half bad. I'd consider taking that psyker if I could tailor him into a few shooty lists, hoping for the TL spell. If not, I could just toss him into some choppy boyz and have a go. I usually do put him with shootas anyway on the rare occasion I break him out.
He definitely needs more buff powers. Hell, maybe even give him a passive that all orks within 12" get +1 strength and attack if he's the warlord- y'know, tying it into the whole gestalt thing.
It's a decent power but no better then the new space marine power or even prescience. However the closest one to being op is the 4+ invul one however it's basically a not garaunteed azreal buff.
To high hopes, to little results. I wouldn't hope for a decent codex any time soon. But I, at least, hope the FAQ and Errata might change something for the better for da boyz.
Mr.T wrote: Errata wont change any rules. Errata says how to play with actual rules
That's what the FAQs are. The errata are changes, although many seem to be rules clarifications under specific situations.
I don't think we'll get much, except an errata for 7 & 8 on the mob rule table. It could be beneficial...depending on what they say 7 & 8 do. It all depends on whether or not they go back to their (assumed) original intent of higher roll = better result for the ork player.
Mostly likely they will just slack off and not change anything, or say 7 & 8 are more squabbles.
JimOnMars wrote: I don't think we'll get much, except an errata for 7 & 8 on the mob rule table. It could be beneficial...depending on what they say 7 & 8 do. It all depends on whether or not they go back to their (assumed) original intent of higher roll = better result for the ork player.
Mostly likely they will just slack off and not change anything, or say 7 & 8 are more squabbles.
at this point i dont believe anyone at GW plays orks... because they would think that squabble is in fact the best result for orks... since you know we are all fielding mobz of 30 boyz these days... its just so damn efficient and "fun"... -.-
koooaei wrote: What do you think about bully boyz + painboyz? Ain't it an overkill?
I love bully boyz and I love painboyz, but not so much together. I exclusively run my bully boyz in FW Gun Wagons which can only carry 10 guys so I sadly do not have a spot for a painboy with them. :(
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