Frozocrone wrote: For 1850 stuff, yeah it's a bummer. Reecius only just managed to fit it in and that was by skimping out on 'eavy armour for his Trukk Boyz (big no no in my book).
If the boyz are fearless you definitely don't want to pay for EA. In normal games, I have never really found it to be worth it. Better to take more boyz than try to upgrade them.
I disagree. That used to be my mentality, but I think it's largely who you're going up against. If you're going up against someone like Eldar or Tau who don't really care about armor saves then, yeah, leave it at home. But I've found it works decently against Guard, and it does wonders against MEQ armies, largely because their standard weapons have a surprising lack of AP4 or lower. AP4 also helps a lot against flamers, which a lot of people will take if they know you're running a boyz heavy list. But the main reason is it will also help you wonders in CC with MEQ armies, because MEQ armies are a lot tougher to take down in CC than Eldar or Tau, which is another reason not to bother with 'eavy armor when facing those two. I also always run eavy armor on any squad I put in any vehicle, even if it's a Battlewagon. Those explosions hurt a hell of a lot with just a 6+ t-shirt save. My most recent battle with a Space Wolves army went incredibly well because of those saves. A mob of 20 boyz with a warboss, eavy armor, and a 5+ FNP from a painboy is a pretty stubborn force to take down, at least for MEQs. Granted, I don't bother putting eavy armor on shootas, as I tend to keep those away from CC, and most people prioritize choppas anyway because they're closer.
That being said, if you're playing against Eldar or Tau with orks you might as well take whatever you want because the only way you're going to win is if Gork and Mork themselves decide to bless your dice that day.
These days i feel even boyz need a price cut. They literally do nothing unless brought in massive numbers, which devours our points and still die in droves.
And im usually against 'eavy armor because thats 10pts per boy for a save you probably wont get. Majority of the firepower in almost every list is AP4 or better.
Vineheart01 wrote: These days i feel even boyz need a price cut. They literally do nothing unless brought in massive numbers, which devours our points and still die in droves.
And im usually against 'eavy armor because thats 10pts per boy for a save you probably wont get. Majority of the firepower in almost every list is AP4 or better.
Again, it depends on the army. But I will concede that 'eavy armor is always a last add on thing when building a list. It's not so much "I need to make room for 'eavy armor" as it is "I have an 80 point hole in this list, why not add some armor?"
I agree vineheart. I prefer to footslog just because that's what I like but there are just so many times where you don't even make it across the table to get into assault. Not with all the firepower out there nowadays.
I have a question. Everywhere I read says that if you take Ghaz in the new Orkcurion, how does he make the entire army Fearless when he Waagh's? I can't seem to find the right rule combination that says this.
saidinwg wrote: I have a question. Everywhere I read says that if you take Ghaz in the new Orkcurion, how does he make the entire army Fearless when he Waagh's? I can't seem to find the right rule combination that says this.
Thanks!
His stock warlord trait, Prophet of the WAAAGH!, has a secondary clause where a Warlord that already has WAAAGH! built in instead gives fearless to all friendly Ork models with the 'Ere We Go! special rule.
saidinwg wrote: I have a question. Everywhere I read says that if you take Ghaz in the new Orkcurion, how does he make the entire army Fearless when he Waagh's? I can't seem to find the right rule combination that says this.
Thanks!
Ghaz has a preset warlord trait that gives his waaagh fearless
His personal special rule is a 2+ invul when he waaaghs and mega armour in his unit can run even though they are slow and purposeful.
This makes his waagh great.
Yeah, having a T5 model with a 2++ save, stacked with fearless is pretty damn good. I'm going to bet, despite the orkurion being rather poor, a lot of people are going to run Ghazzy in it due to the Waaagh! first turn special rule.
saidinwg wrote: I have a question. Everywhere I read says that if you take Ghaz in the new Orkcurion, how does he make the entire army Fearless when he Waagh's? I can't seem to find the right rule combination that says this.
Thanks!
Ghaz has a preset warlord trait that gives his waaagh fearless
His personal special rule is a 2+ invul when he waaaghs and mega armour in his unit can run even though they are slow and purposeful.
This makes his waagh great.
You rock sir... I was looking forever trying to figure it out.
the perma ghazzy waagh makes the council actually good. I just wish we werent required to take 6 bleepin units of boyz because you just cannot give them all wheelz if you take the council unless you start saccing PK nobz.
Course the moment you face D weapons or flier spam, once again we have major issues. Not going to have a single answer to any AV11+ fliers and any D result of 6 ignores ghazzy's invul and any LoS'd D hits will splat a boss. Could take a boss with Supa Cybork to LoS onto for such an occation, but course thats pointless if its a 3 on a D3 or he rolled a 6 on the chart in the first place.
I would personally run the council with a bass kn MA with da super cybork and another with da lucky stikk. Ghazzy goes up front and then look out sirs small arms fire to da lucky stikk. S D goes to the nob behind him on a 6 anything else ghazzy tanks. The super cybork covers another flank from any big and scary shooting while the big mek has a MFF. Sounds interesting and fairly decent.
cranect wrote: I would personally run the council with a bass kn MA with da super cybork and another with da lucky stikk. Ghazzy goes up front and then look out sirs small arms fire to da lucky stikk. S D goes to the nob behind him on a 6 anything else ghazzy tanks. The super cybork covers another flank from any big and scary shooting while the big mek has a MFF. Sounds interesting and fairly decent.
This is the idea. It is important to plan positioning carefully, because LoS! is always to the closest model, and I believe you can't LoS! to another model to move it further back(EDIT the wound I mean).. I'm not sure having another Eternal Warrior Warboss is worth it's points but I understand it's tanky.
Ghaz on point
Warboss in MA with DLS standing behind him.
Big Mek in MA with MFF standing behind that
Nobz behind him
Mad Dok and Spareboss in the back (I keep boss#2 rather plain for the purpose of getting points for a decent auxillary).
Some other thoughts I've had while designing this list;
-The warband has a Warboss too, it's really nice to make take him on a bike, and make the small nob squad in that formation take warbikes, just gives you a good flanking unit.
-Every Boy squad you promote nob+klaw in costs another 35-45 points. Over 6 squads of Boyz, I find that to be around 200 points, which almost gets two squads of Tankbustas in trukks. Something to consider, especially since nothing else except council is gonna soak up fire. Really, remember that every boy you put out there is fearless so long as Ghaz'gul is alive, so shove those gitz out there and force opponents to shoot it all off the board.
I wouldn't worry about supa cybork, just let a single mob LoS the entire str d hit.
And honestly ghaz taking a str d hit isn't horrible he will most likely survive. It's just a d3 normally and he has 4 wounds. A 6 though will kill him outright.
But yes LoS on a Lukky stick warboss is great to absorb all non ap2 Fire. My only problem with this is it's an all in one basket approach and it's nicer to have two beatstick units instead of one.
Ghaz is durable enough by himself to not need any DLS boss absorbing his hits. Ghaz will always have (except for str d and remove from game effects) 2++, followed by 5+fnp (give mad doc a runt for a reroll), and always take at max 1 wound with eternal warrior from str10, Insta death or force weapons because of eternal warrior on a t5 model. Anything worse such as a stomp or str d hit just 2+ LoS on a disposable nob.
However as stated this is a lot of points and Orks need a codex revamp with an across the board cost reduction to make the great waaagh band a viable 1850 list.
A lot of the talk has been how to give all the orks fearless with a multiple Waagh. Ghuzgul guarantees it but what is the chance for a Warboss to get that warlord trait - at least 11/36 because of the reroll - can we do better with da finking cap?
Frozocrone wrote: For 1850 stuff, yeah it's a bummer. Reecius only just managed to fit it in and that was by skimping out on 'eavy armour for his Trukk Boyz (big no no in my book).
If the boyz are fearless you definitely don't want to pay for EA. In normal games, I have never really found it to be worth it. Better to take more boyz than try to upgrade them.
Is there a chance that Fearless boyz don't even need a Nob? Maybe we could take a traditionally good squad:
10 Boyz + Nob (PK, BP) in a Trukk (Ram)
and change it to:
10 Boyz (9 Shootas, 1 Big Shoota) in a Trukk (Ram)
That saves 26 points per squad, and changes the purpose of the boyz somewhat, but might work in an Orcurion with a Ghazstar.
The problem with not taking the nob is now you don't have a power klaw in the unit. If we had more reliable anti-tank units, you could get away with it. Also you need the nob for mob rule. Since 2/3 results require you to have a character in the unit. Now if you are fearless that's great, but now you have to take the waagh council and if ghazghkul ever dies, the boyz units will fold with out the nob. Personally, I'd still take them.
cranect wrote: I agree vineheart. I prefer to footslog just because that's what I like but there are just so many times where you don't even make it across the table to get into assault. Not with all the firepower out there nowadays.
I don't get how this is an issue for anyone these days - are you not playing maelstrom?
You get to place 3 of the objectives and half the cards are to grab objectives, so....how are peoples footsloggers not getting to fight anything? Mine have no problem with this.
In maelstrom your opponent cannot simply sit on his board edge.
For the most part, thats how Tau play maelstrom. They cannot contest objectives because their melee is so bad, even ghostkeels really cant.
Go against a Tau player, expect him to hang at his edge for 2-3 turns minimum. He wont start moving forward until you've lost a large chunk of your army, or at least the main melee threat (bikers)
At this point I'm ready to go Double CAD with 6 units of Mek Gunz. A unit of Lobbas and Traktor Kannonz each and 4 units of KMK's. Deploy them on the edge of the DZ and lob Str 8 AP 2 mini-pies at the opponent. Screen with required Troop grots.
Trying to figure out if the best counter-assault unit would be Bikerz or BullyBoyz.
Vineheart01 wrote: For the most part, thats how Tau play maelstrom. They cannot contest objectives because their melee is so bad, even ghostkeels really cant.
Go against a Tau player, expect him to hang at his edge for 2-3 turns minimum. He wont start moving forward until you've lost a large chunk of your army, or at least the main melee threat (bikers)
I dunno, I guess its because we play with a good spread of terrain - imperial sector rune on each 1/6th and several hills about 3" tall. And most of the ruins are LOS block at level 1.
And somehow night fighting is always rolled which helps too.
Ya my night fighting luck is none. And there is a lot of tau and admech and such. So if its dawn of war deployment I might make it into combat but if it is hammer and anvil they will sit at max range and pick off the front 2-3 rows of guys. Ya it just doesn't work at all around here. We do play maelstrom but when your that slow it doesn't really matter. Plus against tau if you somehow make it close enough they obliterate you with the overwatch at least in my experience. So around here footslogging is a terrible plan but its my preferred playstyle since I don't really like speed freaks.
cranect wrote: Ya my night fighting luck is none. And there is a lot of tau and admech and such. So if its dawn of war deployment I might make it into combat but if it is hammer and anvil they will sit at max range and pick off the front 2-3 rows of guys. Ya it just doesn't work at all around here. We do play maelstrom but when your that slow it doesn't really matter. Plus against tau if you somehow make it close enough they obliterate you with the overwatch at least in my experience. So around here footslogging is a terrible plan but its my preferred playstyle since I don't really like speed freaks.
My favorite way to footslog that actually seems to work not too bad is a lucky stick MA warboss at the front of 30 shoota boyz (3 with big shootas - i know rockits are better but whatever), nob with bosspole+klaw and a painboy.
This unit clocks in around 410 points but is always brutal and survivable
Well, look at it from another view.
Do you like mad max?
If so then PUT YOUR BOYZ IN TRUKK!
I don't fault your love for tides of orks, it's a cool aesthetics. But when compared to meta and fluff if your not fast then your left in the dust.
Well, look at it from another view.
Do you like mad max?
If so then PUT YOUR BOYZ IN TRUKK!
I don't fault your love for tides of orks, it's a cool aesthetics. But when compared to meta and fluff if your not fast then your left in the dust.
Or you could make a MANz missile. Put three in a trukk and get them to the front of the battlefield as fast as you can.
Manz missile...why not just do Nob missile, same idea but just heavy armor - cheaper = more. Maybe 1 klaw and 2 big choppa
Council of the Waaagh
Playing in battlescribe and something hilarious came to mind - what if you max the number of nobx and give them all heavy armor and big choppas. Give the big mek mega armor and a killsaw, give the other 2 warbosses mega armor and 1 a lucky stikk.
Use the lucky stikk and ghaz to tank for the unit (big fire onto ghaz for 2++ small arms fire onto lucky stikk for 2+ reroll)
So the unit is like:
Ghaz
BigMek with MA and killsaw
MA Warboss with lucky stikk
MA Warboss
Grotsnik
10 Nobs with heavy armor and big choppas
I think you can fit this in a battlewagon
I'm so trying this, they will rule the middle of the board and anything they multi assault will die
Edit - and yes taking it in a waaagh band for every turn waaagh.
Vineheart01 wrote: For the most part, thats how Tau play maelstrom. They cannot contest objectives because their melee is so bad, even ghostkeels really cant.
Go against a Tau player, expect him to hang at his edge for 2-3 turns minimum. He wont start moving forward until you've lost a large chunk of your army, or at least the main melee threat (bikers)
I dunno, I guess its because we play with a good spread of terrain - imperial sector rune on each 1/6th and several hills about 3" tall. And most of the ruins are LOS block at level 1.
And somehow night fighting is always rolled which helps too.
Having good LoS blocking terrain is a must. Its one thing i dont like about my FLGS is theres a very sparce selection of tall enough terrain to hide more than a few models at once, unless we grab the few that are just too big and are annoying to play with lol. Nightfighting seems to always be a thing for me too. Though, as a Tau player, i dont care since my vehicles and suits ignore it anyway. My orks love it when that happens and i am running warbikers... 2+ jinks turn 1 ftw!
Nobz missile isnt really cheaper than a MANz missile. 106 3 Nobz w/ 2 BC 1PK and 1BP and 'eavy armor = 106pts. Trukk w/ ram = 35pts Total: 141pts
MANz missile w/ 1 Killsaw and BP = 135pts Trukk w/ ram = 35pts Total: 170pts.
Only a 29pt difference for a HUGE offensive and defensive difference. 2 PKs + 1 Killsaw will murder any vehicle they face while a single PK can flop alot of the time. 2+ armor lets them shrug off a lot of attacks, while 4+ armor almost never DOESNT get pen'd.
I just got my hand on the IA8 and was looking through it. The gu wagons seem quite interresting to bring many big lobbas, but they haven't been updated in the 6th edition dread mob. Could I still use them?
Alkorus wrote: I just got my hand on the IA8 and was looking through it. The gu wagons seem quite interresting to bring many big lobbas, but they haven't been updated in the 6th edition dread mob. Could I still use them?
You're a brave soldier. It's been removed from the FW website so either it's getting replaced soon, or it's being discontinued (most likely the former)
Ya Ill probably have to branch out some if I need to win more. I currently normally run footslogging boys, a large tank force and kommandos and stormboyz for a blood axes theme, a Snakebite theme, or the Dread Mob. So basically everything but speed freaks which includes lots of trukk boys. For fast movement I have tempestus for the different playstyle and actually hitting stuff with shooting lol. I do agree that in the meta now if you arent fast you get left in the dust but hundreds of boys appeals ot me more.
cranect wrote: Ya Ill probably have to branch out some if I need to win more. I currently normally run footslogging boys, a large tank force and kommandos and stormboyz for a blood axes theme, a Snakebite theme, or the Dread Mob. So basically everything but speed freaks which includes lots of trukk boys. For fast movement I have tempestus for the different playstyle and actually hitting stuff with shooting lol. I do agree that in the meta now if you arent fast you get left in the dust but hundreds of boys appeals ot me more.
It's is cool, personally I love madmax and how trukk boyz (or any type of shoot unit in trukk) and warbuggies just ooze that vibe. Really gets my waaagh on.
Like you, I also like waves of boyz
This batrep I did with my 8yr old nephew useing 1p40k was pretty much that http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/682028.page I also like dreddmob.....so unfortunately the only play style 8 do for competitive is speedfreaks.
Though maxed out stormboy squads with bike doKS or a maxed out red skullz formation are good compromises between fast and footsloggers.
Ya the stormboyz I am slowly accumulating. I've got 30 now and kommandos are being gathered as well. The red skull kommandos formation is so much fun when its maxed out.
Vineheart01 wrote: For the most part, thats how Tau play maelstrom. They cannot contest objectives because their melee is so bad, even ghostkeels really cant.
Go against a Tau player, expect him to hang at his edge for 2-3 turns minimum. He wont start moving forward until you've lost a large chunk of your army, or at least the main melee threat (bikers)
I dunno, I guess its because we play with a good spread of terrain - imperial sector rune on each 1/6th and several hills about 3" tall. And most of the ruins are LOS block at level 1.
And somehow night fighting is always rolled which helps too.
Having good LoS blocking terrain is a must. Its one thing i dont like about my FLGS is theres a very sparce selection of tall enough terrain to hide more than a few models at once, unless we grab the few that are just too big and are annoying to play with lol.
Nightfighting seems to always be a thing for me too. Though, as a Tau player, i dont care since my vehicles and suits ignore it anyway. My orks love it when that happens and i am running warbikers... 2+ jinks turn 1 ftw!
You know a good way to fix that? Make and donate some good terrain to your FLGS. Check out The League of Extroardinary Riveters terrain competitions if you need some inspiration.
Oh ive been trying but my current living conditions kinda prevent any terrain making. Moving at the end of the month to a larger place so i actually have SPACE to put such projects aside to dry.
Currently i have about a square foot to actually build/paint in lol. My ta'unar is strung all over the place while i paint it in pieces rofl.
I have a bunch of the pink foam stuff to make terrain, just no space to properly build with it. Aside from the path i walk on, theres no open area in my apartment larger than 2ft lol and im not joking...neither do i have a lot of stuff too.
Vineheart01 wrote: For the most part, thats how Tau play maelstrom. They cannot contest objectives because their melee is so bad, even ghostkeels really cant.
Go against a Tau player, expect him to hang at his edge for 2-3 turns minimum. He wont start moving forward until you've lost a large chunk of your army, or at least the main melee threat (bikers)
I don't see how Tau can be such a problem for orks. That being said I only have played three games against Tau but tabled them by turn 3 or 4 in each of those games. Yesterday I ripped apart a Tau force by arriving with 2/3 of my army in his gunline. Yes, the other 1/3 of my force was shot to pieces....so what? For the Maelstrom objectives I use deffkoptas or buggies to great effect. The remainder of the army is made up of a mix of trukks/big trakks/junkas/warkoptas with boyz and tankbustas and then some bikes.
Been enjoying this thread. Thanks for all the info.
We haven't really honed our list, but at 1500 have rolled out a basic Stompa (with 18/19 Boyz, Nob, sometimes the war leader), manz missile, boyz battlewagon and Grukk list - which is always fun. Stomped ultramarines, both literally and metaphorically, Saturday. Do plan to enhance with Big Mek, Warboss etc on bikes, but as always there is too much to model and paint.
Wish we could run IA8 lists more often as we have Spanna Boyz and lots of walkers. Here's a pic as I think this thread needs more yellow. Please check out our P&M blog if you have time.
I'm going to an ITC event this weekend. Below is the list I've prepared. I don't think I can win, but if I can beat my personal best than i'll be happy.
HQ Big mek with MFF
Painboy on bike
zhadsnark
Elites
MANz missile
Troops
3x 12 'ard boyz in trukk with ram. Unit has nob BPPK 1x warbiker with nob BPPK
Heavy support
Gun trukk with scorcha
Lord of war
Klaw Stompa with 3 big shoota, flamebelcha, power fields and supercharger.
Glitcha wrote: I'm going to an ITC event this weekend. Below is the list I've prepared. I don't think I can win, but if I can beat my personal best than i'll be happy.
....
Klaw Stompa with 3 big shoota, flamebelcha, power fields and supercharger.
Glitcha wrote: I'm going to an ITC event this weekend. Below is the list I've prepared. I don't think I can win, but if I can beat my personal best than i'll be happy.
....
Klaw Stompa with 3 big shoota, flamebelcha, power fields and supercharger.
ITC doesn't allow the Klaw Stompa.
I was told my list was good because the TO has an email from Forgeworld stating that the Kustom Stompa in IA8 counts as a Stompa. There fore would make it legal to play in an ITC event.
Just checked my gw app, and FW was doing an ork advertisement. I got a little excited "ohh, is it about a new IA 8?"
Nope, it was just a promotion for their stompa...which you could still buy it's rules from them (an apocalypse book).
FW needs to get off this sm ego trip...so what you designed 500 variations of helmets and pauldrons...I want orks! I swear if you give them "good 7.5" rules I will forgo making my own and buy some of your product!
Yeah for reals. Both GW and FW seem to act like nobody plays any xenos. Yes im including Tau in this when i say it because nobody except Imperial armies get any real additions outside their codex. Farsight Sup or W!G does not flippin count when its literally the same army with different warlord traits/relics. Imperials got other Imperial codexes, knights, and god knows how many FW stuff.
So...where the heck can one find the rules for all the ork vehicles from FW? Garg squiggoth i know is in the apoc book, but i cant seem to find the most recent rules for anything else. One of my main complaints about the FW books is they dont specify WHAT is in the book when some races like orks are in multiple books for various reasons.
So...where the heck can one find the rules for all the ork vehicles from FW? Garg squiggoth i know is in the apoc book, but i cant seem to find the most recent rules for anything else. One of my main complaints about the FW books is they dont specify WHAT is in the book when some races like orks are in multiple books for various reasons.
Yep, to actualy know where the current rules for fw orks are you need to check the internets...people make lists that tell you where the most recent rules are located...but I personally would wait until a new IA8 Is confirmed b4 any purchases of books. It will most likely have all the ork stuff and the new rules for them....no point in wasting money.
There were rumours not at all on IA8 because most models never sold as well as other books. However ravenguard has a bunch of new models they can add to it, and I can foresee Orks losing a few vehicles and tanks that aren't extremely popular. And Elysian were never as popular as death korps of krieg except the vulture gunship with punisher cannons.
Well cincycon's CAGbash was kind of a bust for me this year. Did not make top 8 like I did last year. Can't really say i'm a big fan of the ITC missions or FAQ. I tied on couple missions and you get nothing for a tie. Either way klaw stompa was awesome. Out of 6 games he died once. First round killed a knight. Second round killed an wraith knight. Died in the second round to wraith guard with d-scyths. Third round killed a Storm surge. I didn't have him in round 4 and 5. I got him back in round 6 and he killed a nurgle knight.
First round was Imperial knights with Eldar allies (mainly warp spiders and swooping hawks)
Second round was Elder with dark eldar allies (mainly scatter laser bikes. Had couple units of warp spiders. He used his dark eldar allies for transports for a unit of fire dragons and wraith guard.)
Third Round was Tau with Storm surge. I wasn't too impressed with the Storm surge. He was rolling lost of dice but doing little damage. As he is only T6. (I assaulted him with a unit of boyz to tie him up before my stompa got to him.)
I don't know where I finished over all yet, but I do know I scored the highest out for orks. I guess ITC tracks how many points each army gets at each event. So their is that.
Rounds 4,5, & 6 were on day two and it was a wacky 40k for those that didn't make it to the top 8. Our list were randomly generated from the units we used on day 1. I ended up with my bikes and trukks for round 4 and 5. Round 6 I got my Stompa back and got that nurgle knight kill.
The best strategy I had with my stompa was to hope from terrain to terrain with him. I did this so if anyone assaulted him and did not have grenades, like a knight, would swing at the same time as me.
Singleton Mosby wrote: I don't see how Tau can be such a problem for orks. That being said I only have played three games against Tau but tabled them by turn 3 or 4 in each of those games. Yesterday I ripped apart a Tau force by arriving with 2/3 of my army in his gunline. Yes, the other 1/3 of my force was shot to pieces....so what? For the Maelstrom objectives I use deffkoptas or buggies to great effect. The remainder of the army is made up of a mix of trukks/big trakks/junkas/warkoptas with boyz and tankbustas and then some bikes.
I would be interested to hear what sort of list you field! In my experience fighting Tau I need to get first turn to even stand a chance. Last week I went second. After turn 1 of shooting 1/4 of my army was gone. Turn 2 shooting removed about 1/2. So, at the start of my second turn I was left with just some Deffkoptas and a Battlewagon full of boyz with a Mega Armour Warboss. They did get into combat that turn and did some nice damage on the charge of course, wiping 3 Tau units in an effective multi-charge, but there was so much of the Tau army left that they had no problem to remove the remainder of my army in the turn 3 shooting.
Pretty much every unit in a Tau army has Ignore Cover and there is such an overload of high strength, high shot number, low AP weapons that my Orks usually have a very hard time. So, would love to know how you deal with them so easily!
Glitcha wrote: I tied on couple missions and you get nothing for a tie.
You get 500 Points.
Glitcha wrote: I don't know where I finished over all yet, but I do know I scored the highest out for orks. I guess ITC tracks how many points each army gets at each event. So their is that.
Yeah, that is actually pretty cool. I'm looking forward to being the Top Ork Player for a week after placing 3rd and 4th in my 1st two events, and if I record a solid placing at Midwest Conquest this weekend, I will lock in a decent lead for a month or two.
Glitcha wrote: The best strategy I had with my stompa was to hope from terrain to terrain with him. I did this so if anyone assaulted him and did not have grenades, like a knight, would swing at the same time as me.
Just remember if you go to an ITC event, ask 1st before taking a Klaw Stompa. The official ITC army Comp doesn't allow it, and so most events, including the 2 I've competed at this season, and the one that I'm going to this weekend, and the one I'm TOing in April will not allow it. It is a neat unit, and if it is something you'd like to see at more events you should definitely petition the ITC to allow it.
I tabled the Tau guy I played this weekend at an event and he had a stormsurge. I rushed his line with two units of trukk boyz, MANz missile, and Klaw stompa. He stormsurge murdered my bike boyz, but I was able to save zhadsnark and painboy on bike. After that his commander and body guard unit landed. I assaulted them with a boyz and the HQs and they all died. Zhadsnark had challenged and killed all of them.
I've found in the past the best way to beat tau is to eliminate the markerlights and try to put a whole in their gun line to break up the supporting fire. You can also try to multi-assault with a escape goat deffkopta. As long as he lives and you make the charge, your good.
I agree that ork boys need a price reduction. I had a game this past weekend playing a daemon player. He was using the daemonic incursion force and had like 9 exalted flamers. Their torrent flamers that were S6 AP 3 roasted 30 boys a turn.
I was so glad I didn't pay for eavy armour. He didn't even have to use every single one. he had a group of 5 attached as one unit. The other 4 were free to go about roasting the next unit. That might have been the most demotivated I've been playing orks before.
I don't know if a mere price reduction is what we need for boyz. They're fine points-wise, but the issue is you have to put them in a transport most of the time.
For example, I usually run 2 squads of 20 choppas (120 points each), but they need a vehicle to get into combat against non-choppy armies. Putting 12 boyz in a trukk is a recipe for 12 dead boyz, so I have to go with a battlewagon, which is around 120 points after the ram and big shoota. That basically doubles their cost just to ensure I can get them into combat.
What they need is a cheaper way to get a lot of boyz into the fray. I dream of a rule of something like "stampede" where if you have more than 15 models in the unit, they can move up to 12'', but if they move any less than that they have to take dangerous terrain checks or something as other boyz trample each other.
Still say we should be able to exceed our transport capacity at a risk.
Trukks goto 20models and wagons goto 40 but the moment you exceed the current max they treat all terrain as dangerous terrain needing a 3+ to pass instead of a 2+. Since Rams are literally always on our vehicles, a rerollable 3+ dangertest isnt that massive though its still possible enough to be a problem. Tradeoff is we can actually get our damn boyz around in numbers they need. Wagons obviously cant get to 40 without mass Meks or ICs attached. Its there to prevent the -3boyz to add a MABoss and Painboy.
And wagons need a price cut....~130pts for literally a transport is so pathetic. They nerfed to the ground any options it had, or rather the few it had.
A combination of the two, perhaps. A special rule that orks can exceed transport capacity by 1.5, and we get an AV 12 open topped transport with a capacity of 20. However whenever exceeding the transport capacity, all dangerous terrain checks are increased by +1.
And while we're wishlisting, why not make the deffrolla ignore terrain altogether like the siege shield? At least then people would take it again.
quite frankly i'd be happy if deffrolla just worked at all.
They not only nerfed it to D3 hits instead of D6 (gaining AP4 is NOT a trade, if it was AP2 sure) but they made it no longer do anything unless the target unit is dumb enough to DoG a deffrolla and fail to stop it. Even with the easier-DoG rules of 7th, thats a suicide mission, while you can just simply say "Pass" and it flies by no damage done period.
Has anyone here actually tried the orkirion with the council?
I have played three times now, and it is actually seems pretty fun and effective. All the boys tend to die so I don't stress about giving them all power klaws. And council can carry the game for you; which to be fair it has to.
I do wish that the orkirion was more flexible and not so points restrictive.
I've played two games now, 1850 Waaagh Band and Council, and a 2000 point Goff Killmob and Council. Both were fun games up until the early surrender because my opponent doesn't have the AP2 needed in a unit that can challenge Ghaz and overwhelm council's lack of CC invul.
It is points restrictive but you don't get much more orky then Council and Waaagh Band!
Vitali Advenil wrote: I don't know if a mere price reduction is what we need for boyz. They're fine points-wise, but the issue is you have to put them in a transport most of the time.
For example, I usually run 2 squads of 20 choppas (120 points each), but they need a vehicle to get into combat against non-choppy armies. Putting 12 boyz in a trukk is a recipe for 12 dead boyz, so I have to go with a battlewagon, which is around 120 points after the ram and big shoota. That basically doubles their cost just to ensure I can get them into combat.
What they need is a cheaper way to get a lot of boyz into the fray. I dream of a rule of something like "stampede" where if you have more than 15 models in the unit, they can move up to 12'', but if they move any less than that they have to take dangerous terrain checks or something as other boyz trample each other.
Yeah you see I was running the goff kill mob and it was only 1850. I didn't have much room to wiggle points wise. I figured that if I bumped them up to 30 man then they'd be somewhat survivavable. I rolled a 1 on the ork warlord trait to and the goff killmob can reroll charge distance so I figured I'd make combat. That wasn't the case and those exalted flamers wiped 60 boys in 2 turns.
Geemoney wrote: I have played three times now, and it is actually seems pretty fun and effective. All the boys tend to die so I don't stress about giving them all power klaws. And council can carry the game for you; which to be fair it has to.
Geemoney wrote: I have played three times now, and it is actually seems pretty fun and effective. All the boys tend to die so I don't stress about giving them all power klaws. And council can carry the game for you; which to be fair it has to.
Do you give the boyz nobs? Big Choppas?
I always run powerklaw nobs in boyz squads, especially if they're slugga/choppas. A lot of the time, they're the ones who really put in the work. The boyz are just a cushion.
Big Choppas are fine for the points. I just wish they were better than +2 Strength. If they were +3 for S8 on the charge, or Rending, yes, I would snap them up for what they are.
Geemoney wrote: I have played three times now, and it is actually seems pretty fun and effective. All the boys tend to die so I don't stress about giving them all power klaws. And council can carry the game for you; which to be fair it has to.
Do you give the boyz nobs? Big Choppas?
I always run powerklaw nobs in boyz squads, especially if they're slugga/choppas. A lot of the time, they're the ones who really put in the work. The boyz are just a cushion.
Klaw Nob is at least 35 points, two of those is a five man squad of tankbustas. Three of them is is almost a squad of MANz. It's just something to think about
Geemoney wrote: I have played three times now, and it is actually seems pretty fun and effective. All the boys tend to die so I don't stress about giving them all power klaws. And council can carry the game for you; which to be fair it has to.
Do you give the boyz nobs? Big Choppas?
I always run powerklaw nobs in boyz squads, especially if they're slugga/choppas. A lot of the time, they're the ones who really put in the work. The boyz are just a cushion.
Klaw Nob is at least 35 points, two of those is a five man squad of tankbustas. Three of them is is almost a squad of MANz. It's just something to think about
Yes but boyz without claw can't kill marines in close combat. Explore what will happen if 20 orks assault 10 space wolf blood claws. 1-2 orks die from overwatch, 4-5 orks die from close combat attacks before orks can speak, then orks attacks and kills 4-5 blood claws.If the orks lose the combat (and this is about 50%) they roll ld -1 usually and either lose 1-3 models or the entire unit from sweeping, if the win the combat nothing happens because of ATSKNF. Next round they are locked in combat with minus 1 attack each and 1 str. These are same cost units. In the case that the blood claws attack, they kill 2-3 orks before assault, they lose 0-1 from overwatch and then they kill 4-5 orks, the orks fight back and they kill 3-4 claws most likely the orcs roll morale.
So in order to do something with the mandatory 6 units of orks you must have something in them.
Part of me doesn't understand why you wrote that out, but I played your game. With Rage and Counter Attack they, rightly so, should be a nasty assaulty unit.
Your Bolt Pistols, 10 shots might hit one, or two, Orkz, and maybe wound half. Ork probably does not have a save, you likely kill 0 or 1 Ork.
Combat begins, you have 30 attacks if the ork assaulted you. You hit with half, wound with half, ork saves maybe one. You likely kill five to seven Ork boyz.
Orkz swing back with 12 to 15 left roughly, so 48 to 60 attacks, hitting on 3's, so 32 to 40 hits, 16 to 20 wounds, you save 66% so 5.3333 to 6.666667 marines. Considering MEQ dice are likely more subject to variance, it's likely this highly unimportant fight might be a draw or on a small loss modifier for either side somehow. If Space Wolves had the assault, they would likely win lopsidedly, even with massive ork over watch killing maybe one marine. Every ork knows we have rules designed to get us the assault, if we don't, bad day.
If I had to pay fourty points for Nob Klaw Bosspole, I would have 7 less ork boyz. Leaving me with 5 to 8 left after your I4 step, so 20 to 32 attacks, so 2.6667 to 3.333333 dead marines, half the output from boys for a powerklaw. Then, the powerklaw is picked up and rolls four attacks hopefully hitting 3 times and wounding 3 times, or we lost effectiveness against marines buying it.
Powerklaws are better suited for increasing the capabilities of wounding high toughness models, AV greater than 10, doubling out T4 models with FNP or 2W+. I think the proper thinking is take minimum boyz and make the best use of them as cheap, scoring, T4 bodies. Then buy nicer toys
thenewgozoku wrote: So your opinion for the ghazgkull warband is to take 10x6 boyz on foot and just hide them to objectives?
Yes I did that, I did get 2x5 storm boyz and 4x5 tankbustas by keeping the boyz cheap. Also upgraded the spare Nob squad and Warboss to biker nobz. Anecdotal evidence, worked in malestrom nicely. There are plenty of things for boyz to do even without a klaw.
Powerklaws are stupidly expensive, yes, but often times they'll be the difference between a won and lost combat. I can remember several times where my boyz only got one or two wounds off, only for my nob to come in and remove several models. Honestly, I use them because of the AP and instant death potential. Plus, it's a great answer to tanks. If every boyz unit has 4 S9, AP2 attacks on the charge, you can pop pretty much any vehicle you come across short of a landraider, and we have meganobz for that.
We pay 60 points for a unit that can dish out 40 STR4 ap- attacks. If you buy Nob and Klaw you are talking 95. Done 6 times in the formation it costs 195 points. 195 points doesn't sound like adding capability to boyz to me, it sounds like missing out on 3x5 Tankbustas, which could be handing out str8 at range or melta in assault.
Yeah I definitely wouldn't put powerklaws on every nob in that formation; I wasn't aware we were talking about that specifically. I'd do two, maybe three, but nothing more.
Geemoney wrote: Here is roughly the list I have been using, I have been tweaking it.
Council
Ghazz
Dok
Warboss mega armour + stikk
Warboss Big Choppa
Big Mek Mega KFF 3 Nobz, Big Choppa
Waaagh Band
2 units of 9 boyz + Nob w/ Klaw
4 units of 9 boyz + Nob w/ Big Choppa
All in trukks
Warboss eavy armour + Klaw, 3 nobz with big choppas, in a trukk
plus other required units
Aux
Battlewagon for the council
It would be interesting to see what I could do if I dropped the Nobz and or Trukks, I would like to add Stormboyz/Kommandos/Tank bustas to the list.
Think you might be able to save the points on the mega KFF since Ghaz and stick boss should be able to tank for the council? Or from your experience no
Geemoney wrote: Here is roughly the list I have been using, I have been tweaking it.
Council
Ghazz
Dok
Warboss mega armour + stikk
Warboss Big Choppa
Big Mek Mega KFF 3 Nobz, Big Choppa
Waaagh Band
2 units of 9 boyz + Nob w/ Klaw
4 units of 9 boyz + Nob w/ Big Choppa
All in trukks
Warboss eavy armour + Klaw, 3 nobz with big choppas, in a trukk
plus other required units
Aux
Battlewagon for the council
It would be interesting to see what I could do if I dropped the Nobz and or Trukks, I would like to add Stormboyz/Kommandos/Tank bustas to the list.
Think you might be able to save the points on the mega KFF since Ghaz and stick boss should be able to tank for the council? Or from your experience no
In case someone flanks the formation with shooting it(MFF) makes whatever character gets the brunt of it still kind of strong. There are also things that can snipe some of the bits in the squad. Also, the MFF is a nice save for Battlewagon.
In addition, my theory is I am counting of the council to carry the game for me especially into the later rounds after all the boyz die, so I want to protect those points. Ghazz is also the linchpin of the whole army, and I don't want to put wounds on him unless I have to.
To be honest I have never tried it without the mege kff.
big choppa 3 S6 AP- attacks
.5*.83*3 = 1.24 wd average
:/
Isn't that kind of the same against MEQs? You're really only improving your anti-vehicle abilities/MCs/ID vs T3 - is that necessary? People seem to take BC reflexively. PK is way bigger difference in killing power and AV, but only 20 PPM compared to BC and more versatile still.
1 PK could kill more than the 5 big choppas you'd replace it with.
only real perk of the bigchoppa is they can reliably wound higher toughness and vehicles better than sluggachoppa. One of those things where if youre a few points over your limit, thats where you can make the cuts since it isnt that important.
I think the big choppa has its place in shoota mobs. Giving the nob a shoota and a big choppa gets you the most shooting while still being able to hit decently, as you wouldn't get the extra attack due to the shoota. I don't bother putting PKs on them since they're going to be behind my slugga/choppas.
Frozocrone wrote: Big Choppas are fine for the points. I just wish they were better than +2 Strength. If they were +3 for S8 on the charge, or Rending, yes, I would snap them up for what they are.
I find str 7 is fine it wounds most models on a 2 and since it's close combat weapon hits rear armor on vehicles. Few vehicles have rear armour higher then 12. However ap5 is crap and my opponent usually armour saves their way through that sole nobs atks. If he isn't challenged out of course. The BC needs to be ap4 for 5pts. That will hurt most basic infantry.
Pk needs a pts reduction to 15pts and nob upgrade reduced to 5 pts or free with each squad like most army books.
Rismonite wrote: Part of me doesn't understand why you wrote that out, but I played your game. With Rage and Counter Attack they, rightly so, should be a nasty assaulty unit.
Your Bolt Pistols, 10 shots might hit one, or two, Orkz, and maybe wound half. Ork probably does not have a save, you likely kill 0 or 1 Ork.
Combat begins, you have 30 attacks if the ork assaulted you. You hit with half, wound with half, ork saves maybe one. You likely kill five to seven Ork boyz.
Orkz swing back with 12 to 15 left roughly, so 48 to 60 attacks, hitting on 3's, so 32 to 40 hits, 16 to 20 wounds, you save 66% so 5.3333 to 6.666667 marines. Considering MEQ dice are likely more subject to variance, it's likely this highly unimportant fight might be a draw or on a small loss modifier for either side somehow. If Space Wolves had the assault, they would likely win lopsidedly, even with massive ork over watch killing maybe one marine. Every ork knows we have rules designed to get us the assault, if we don't, bad day.
If I had to pay fourty points for Nob Klaw Bosspole, I would have 7 less ork boyz. Leaving me with 5 to 8 left after your I4 step, so 20 to 32 attacks, so 2.6667 to 3.333333 dead marines, half the output from boys for a powerklaw. Then, the powerklaw is picked up and rolls four attacks hopefully hitting 3 times and wounding 3 times, or we lost effectiveness against marines buying it.
Powerklaws are better suited for increasing the capabilities of wounding high toughness models, AV greater than 10, doubling out T4 models with FNP or 2W+. I think the proper thinking is take minimum boyz and make the best use of them as cheap, scoring, T4 bodies. Then buy nicer toys
What? That goes against everything I've heard about orks. Its boyz before toyz. Many times boyz are ablative wounds for the power klaw. Boyz with klaw nobs are the heart of the ork army.
Thats the OLD motto. That died with the current dex, mass boyz are so easily dealt with and thanks to removing models from the front it also forces us back a full turn of movement on average.
Ever since we lost fearless and gain this stupid mob rule chart, the boyz before toyz motto went away. Literally every time i focus on boyz i get tabled turn3, but if i bring less than 100 in a 2k game i do fairly well (barring bad luck since orks heavily depend on luck against the bigdog races)
6th also somewhat removed the ablative wounds for a pk nob mentality, 7th being no different. A nob with pk is so easily sniped or challenged out these days. Only reason we didnt dump our PK like the SM dumped their PFs is because we HAVE no other options that actually does something, while SM have powerswords.
Thats one of the bigger reasons people are so peeved about the massive boy tax in our formations. We dont want mass boyz unless its a Green Tide, because mass boyz outside a green tide is insanely bad now.
Rismonite wrote: Part of me doesn't understand why you wrote that out, but I played your game. With Rage and Counter Attack they, rightly so, should be a nasty assaulty unit.
Your Bolt Pistols, 10 shots might hit one, or two, Orkz, and maybe wound half. Ork probably does not have a save, you likely kill 0 or 1 Ork.
Combat begins, you have 30 attacks if the ork assaulted you. You hit with half, wound with half, ork saves maybe one. You likely kill five to seven Ork boyz.
Orkz swing back with 12 to 15 left roughly, so 48 to 60 attacks, hitting on 3's, so 32 to 40 hits, 16 to 20 wounds, you save 66% so 5.3333 to 6.666667 marines. Considering MEQ dice are likely more subject to variance, it's likely this highly unimportant fight might be a draw or on a small loss modifier for either side somehow. If Space Wolves had the assault, they would likely win lopsidedly, even with massive ork over watch killing maybe one marine. Every ork knows we have rules designed to get us the assault, if we don't, bad day.
If I had to pay fourty points for Nob Klaw Bosspole, I would have 7 less ork boyz. Leaving me with 5 to 8 left after your I4 step, so 20 to 32 attacks, so 2.6667 to 3.333333 dead marines, half the output from boys for a powerklaw. Then, the powerklaw is picked up and rolls four attacks hopefully hitting 3 times and wounding 3 times, or we lost effectiveness against marines buying it.
Powerklaws are better suited for increasing the capabilities of wounding high toughness models, AV greater than 10, doubling out T4 models with FNP or 2W+. I think the proper thinking is take minimum boyz and make the best use of them as cheap, scoring, T4 bodies. Then buy nicer toys
What? That goes against everything I've heard about orks. Its boyz before toyz. Many times boyz are ablative wounds for the power klaw. Boyz with klaw nobs are the heart of the ork army.
Boyz before toyz doesn't apply as much nowadays in the 7.5 ed meta, with SHW, GMC, rampant biker spam and the sheer amount of dakka that armies can pump out now, boyz are not the cure-all they used to be, especially given how mob rule has changed. Boyz simply don't have the resilience or damage output, even with PK support, to guarantee wins without proper "toyz" like tankbustas, MANZ missiles or other auxiliaries to deal with the myriad of threats we have to face as Orks. While they're not bad as a core, they simply lose impact as the games get bigger.
In addition, my theory is I am counting of the council to carry the game for me especially into the later rounds after all the boyz die, so I want to protect those points. Ghazz is also the linchpin of the whole army, and I don't want to put wounds on him unless I have to.
To be honest I have never tried it without the mege kff.
My problem with kff or mff in an assault unit is that it gives all models in range the save. Since ghaz wants to be in your opponents face the entire time that's can be a problem.
Technically ghaz and a Lukky stick mega armor war boss with 5+ fnp should be enough to eat anything thrown your way.
ive been trying to build an 1850 list with the new decorian and it's hard to make it more then a 1 unit list.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats the OLD motto. That died with the current dex, mass boyz are so easily dealt with and thanks to removing models from the front it also forces us back a full turn of movement on average.
Ever since we lost fearless and gain this stupid mob rule chart, the boyz before toyz motto went away. Literally every time i focus on boyz i get tabled turn3, but if i bring less than 100 in a 2k game i do fairly well (barring bad luck since orks heavily depend on luck against the bigdog races)
6th also somewhat removed the ablative wounds for a pk nob mentality, 7th being no different. A nob with pk is so easily sniped or challenged out these days. Only reason we didnt dump our PK like the SM dumped their PFs is because we HAVE no other options that actually does something, while SM have powerswords.
Thats one of the bigger reasons people are so peeved about the massive boy tax in our formations. We dont want mass boyz unless its a Green Tide, because mass boyz outside a green tide is insanely bad now.
Sadly, I have to agree. When I first dove into the hobby a few months back, I was eager to just send a whole mob of nothing but boyz down the table at my opponent. However, after actually playing games, I realize that this is just not possible. Granted, I still run a lot of boyz, roughly 40 choppas and 30 shootas, but most armies can take down boyz pretty damn quick when focused, so you have to give them other tougher or faster things to shoot at.
In addition, my theory is I am counting of the council to carry the game for me especially into the later rounds after all the boyz die, so I want to protect those points. Ghazz is also the linchpin of the whole army, and I don't want to put wounds on him unless I have to.
To be honest I have never tried it without the mege kff.
My problem with kff or mff in an assault unit is that it gives all models in range the save. Since ghaz wants to be in your opponents face the entire time that's can be a problem.
Technically ghaz and a Lukky stick mega armor war boss with 5+ fnp should be enough to eat anything thrown your way.
ive been trying to build an 1850 list with the new decorian and it's hard to make it more then a 1 unit list.
Thing is though the Council when spread out to minimize blast damage, if the KFF/MFF is in the middle then nothing except the Council will ever get the invul save. Remember it doesnt work in melee, so anything close enough to get that invul other than you is already locked in combat...so it really only helps them if a blast scatters onto your combat.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats the OLD motto. That died with the current dex, mass boyz are so easily dealt with and thanks to removing models from the front it also forces us back a full turn of movement on average.
Ever since we lost fearless and gain this stupid mob rule chart, the boyz before toyz motto went away. Literally every time i focus on boyz i get tabled turn3, but if i bring less than 100 in a 2k game i do fairly well (barring bad luck since orks heavily depend on luck against the bigdog races)
6th also somewhat removed the ablative wounds for a pk nob mentality, 7th being no different. A nob with pk is so easily sniped or challenged out these days. Only reason we didnt dump our PK like the SM dumped their PFs is because we HAVE no other options that actually does something, while SM have powerswords.
Thats one of the bigger reasons people are so peeved about the massive boy tax in our formations. We dont want mass boyz unless its a Green Tide, because mass boyz outside a green tide is insanely bad now.
Sadly, I have to agree. When I first dove into the hobby a few months back, I was eager to just send a whole mob of nothing but boyz down the table at my opponent. However, after actually playing games, I realize that this is just not possible. Granted, I still run a lot of boyz, roughly 40 choppas and 30 shootas, but most armies can take down boyz pretty damn quick when focused, so you have to give them other tougher or faster things to shoot at.
I run 60 sluggaboyz typically. 3 squads of 20, low enough numbers so i have plenty of toyz but not so low they cant do anything. They still do work, its not like theyre completely worthless, but theyre only doing something because of my bikers and MANz missiles drawing attention and locking crap in combat...not because boyz are awesome.
In addition, my theory is I am counting of the council to carry the game for me especially into the later rounds after all the boyz die, so I want to protect those points. Ghazz is also the linchpin of the whole army, and I don't want to put wounds on him unless I have to.
To be honest I have never tried it without the mege kff.
My problem with kff or mff in an assault unit is that it gives all models in range the save. Since ghaz wants to be in your opponents face the entire time that's can be a problem.
Technically ghaz and a Lukky stick mega armor war boss with 5+ fnp should be enough to eat anything thrown your way.
ive been trying to build an 1850 list with the new decorian and it's hard to make it more then a 1 unit list.
Thing is though the Council when spread out to minimize blast damage, if the KFF/MFF is in the middle then nothing except the Council will ever get the invul save. Remember it doesnt work in melee, so anything close enough to get that invul other than you is already locked in combat...so it really only helps them if a blast scatters onto your combat.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats the OLD motto. That died with the current dex, mass boyz are so easily dealt with and thanks to removing models from the front it also forces us back a full turn of movement on average.
Ever since we lost fearless and gain this stupid mob rule chart, the boyz before toyz motto went away. Literally every time i focus on boyz i get tabled turn3, but if i bring less than 100 in a 2k game i do fairly well (barring bad luck since orks heavily depend on luck against the bigdog races)
6th also somewhat removed the ablative wounds for a pk nob mentality, 7th being no different. A nob with pk is so easily sniped or challenged out these days. Only reason we didnt dump our PK like the SM dumped their PFs is because we HAVE no other options that actually does something, while SM have powerswords.
Thats one of the bigger reasons people are so peeved about the massive boy tax in our formations. We dont want mass boyz unless its a Green Tide, because mass boyz outside a green tide is insanely bad now.
Sadly, I have to agree. When I first dove into the hobby a few months back, I was eager to just send a whole mob of nothing but boyz down the table at my opponent. However, after actually playing games, I realize that this is just not possible. Granted, I still run a lot of boyz, roughly 40 choppas and 30 shootas, but most armies can take down boyz pretty damn quick when focused, so you have to give them other tougher or faster things to shoot at.
I run 60 sluggaboyz typically. 3 squads of 20, low enough numbers so i have plenty of toyz but not so low they cant do anything. They still do work, its not like theyre completely worthless, but theyre only doing something because of my bikers and MANz missiles drawing attention and locking crap in combat...not because boyz are awesome.
So a mff would be worth its points for the first round or two if the council is sitting inside an expensive but worthy transport, say a stompa. And if boys are nothing more than foot slugging cannon fodder.
+++ Orky (1850pts) +++
++ Orks: Codex (2014) (Ork Great Waaagh!-band) (1345pts) ++
+ Command (722pts) +
"Council of Waaagh!" (722pts) [Mad Dok Grotsnik, Da Painboss]
Big Mek (WG) [Choppa, Gubbinz: Mega Force Field, Slugga]
Ghazghkull Thraka [Warlord]
Nobz [Waaagh! Banner]
Boss Nob [Big Choppa, Shoota]
Nob [Big Choppa, Shoota]
Nob [Big Choppa, Shoota]
Warboss ['Eavy Armour, Big Choppa, Slugga]
Warboss ['Eavy Armour, Big Choppa, Slugga]
So a mff would be worth its points for the first round or two if the council is sitting inside an expensive but worthy transport, say a stompa. And if boys are nothing more than foot slugging cannon fodder.
+++ Orky (1850pts) +++
++ Orks: Codex (2014) (Ork Great Waaagh!-band) (1345pts) ++
+ Command (722pts) +
"Council of Waaagh!" (722pts) [Mad Dok Grotsnik, Da Painboss]
Big Mek (WG) [Choppa, Gubbinz: Mega Force Field, Slugga]
Ghazghkull Thraka [Warlord]
Nobz [Waaagh! Banner]
Boss Nob [Big Choppa, Shoota]
Nob [Big Choppa, Shoota]
Nob [Big Choppa, Shoota]
Warboss ['Eavy Armour, Big Choppa, Slugga]
Warboss ['Eavy Armour, Big Choppa, Slugga]
I would put the mff on the cad bigmek, and then place him in the stompa with the council. That way when the council leaves the stompa the mff doesn't have to leave...and the stompa would benefit more from Haveing a 4up invulnerable then the council who will most likely have a 2up invulnerable tank.
Also, tryou running the defkoptas in squads. You have feerless every turn, gotta use that benefit somewhere.
I feel like the painmob got ignored with the promise and utter slap to the face that is the new orkcurion.
The painmob could be a very powerful formation.
1 boys unit
1 mobs unit
1 Dred
The gem here is the nob unit. It makes old mob biker lists interesting again.
Imagine a large nob biker list with 3 to 4 klaws 10 Nov bikers min, painboy on bike and waaagh banner. Take a ork horde with big mek kff on bike warboss with DLS. On bike.
The unit has a large footprint, can multi assault turn 2 and with pile on the pain turn 3 can probably finish off anything it multicharged for another turn 3 multi charge.
Put the boys in a trunk with ok mob, kit dread for assault and buy grits for the horde. Throw in some lootas or mek guns.
blaktoof wrote: I feel like the painmob got ignored with the promise and utter slap to the face that is the new orkcurion.
The painmob could be a very powerful formation.
1 boys unit
1 mobs unit
1 Dred
The gem here is the nob unit. It makes old mob biker lists interesting again.
Imagine a large nob biker list with 3 to 4 klaws 10 Nov bikers min, painboy on bike and waaagh banner. Take a ork horde with big mek kff on bike warboss with DLS. On bike.
The unit has a large footprint, can multi assault turn 2 and with pile on the pain turn 3 can probably finish off anything it multicharged for another turn 3 multi charge.
Put the boys in a trunk with ok mob, kit dread for assault and buy grits for the horde. Throw in some lootas or mek guns.
I agree. While 'Pile in da pain' is seriously Overpowered (unit gets to assault enemy unit and enemy unit can't fight back until the Assault phase), it could be very useful.
I gave the blitzbike to the mek to keep up with zhadsnarks tankshock if you want to use it. I don't think it'll work without zhadsnark as you need the initiative ap2 against other deathstars. If your opponent is really MSU I'd suggest splitting up the nobs and painboy and put the horde characters in whichever combination is best(always either with the nobs or painboy so that they can make use of the extra assault phase)
Actually the fearless Waagh works on them too since Waaagh isnt a formation rule, its a codex rule. Theres nothing saying units purchased outside the orkurion can only benefit from a singular turn of waaagh. Course, then we come back to the usual problem of expensive taxes to get said perma waaagh...
I tried the painmob twice and didnt really like it. I found that it was far better on paper then in practice. It requires two sub optimal choices (deff dread and normal nobz) in an already sub optimal codex. The only unit I found that it worked well for were the boyz who after two rounds of combat were either already winning or getting beaten.
Now it was only two games I played with them so its barely anything to go on, but as it stands I am not a fan.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I tried the painmob twice and didnt really like it. I found that it was far better on paper then in practice. It requires two sub optimal choices (deff dread and normal nobz) in an already sub optimal codex. The only unit I found that it worked well for were the boyz who after two rounds of combat were either already winning or getting beaten.
Now it was only two games I played with them so its barely anything to go on, but as it stands I am not a fan.
Yeah, that sums up my issues with it as well. I mean, I would love an excuse to take a dread. "Oh, no, I don't really want to field this dread, which is my favorite looking model in the codex, I just have to take it for the formation... yeah." But that, combined with a squad of nobs (though you can put them on bikes) really lowers the potential. Plus, it's really not that great of a buff, especially compared to a lot of other formations. It's nice, but I'm not sure it's worth taking the dread and losing obsec.
OS is overrated on ork. I do think biker nobz is the way to go with this formation. I also think you would need to take a charge to get any mileage out of this rule.
I wish it was more than one use at least. Kinda makes you feel like you get skimped on given that pretty much all the formation bonuses from the other Start Collecting boxes are permanent and don't require as reactive a situation to activate it.
A small reminder that the cost of Nob bikers has remained the same in this codex, it is only Warbikers getting cheaper that really pushed the rhetoric of biker nobz suddenly being bad. Biker nobz didn't change in cost they made Nobz cheaper and bike gear equally expensive, they are the same unit. They are T5 2W jinking turbo boosting monsters that hide a klaw on non characters and have better strength. Smaller footprint, higher cost, means you trade to get durability vs non str 10 pie plate to inefficiency to direct fire when weighed against warbikes.
Remember, Warbikers are good because they got buffed, biker nobz are still good and the same but not as good because warbikers got buffed. 3 biker nobz are not garbage.
Rismonite wrote: A small reminder that the cost of Nob bikers has remained the same in this codex, it is only Warbikers getting cheaper that really pushed the rhetoric of biker nobz suddenly being bad. Biker nobz didn't change in cost they made Nobz cheaper and bike gear equally expensive, they are the same unit. They are T5 2W jinking turbo boosting monsters that hide a klaw on non characters and have better strength. Smaller footprint, higher cost, means you trade to get durability vs non str 10 pie plate to inefficiency to direct fire when weighed against warbikes.
Remember, Warbikers are good because they got buffed, biker nobz are still good and the same but not as good because warbikers got buffed. 3 biker nobz are not garbage.
While true, they also did lose access to non-HQ slot eating Painboy biker option and its accompanying 5+ CB invuln. as well, so I would say they were downgraded in the sense of losing options that would allow them to stay somewhere around their original power point.
Attach a Warboss on bike with big boss pole for fearless?
If you're loading a bunch of points onto a nob biker squad, this is worth doing, especially with pile on the pain.
Can I take the Buzzgob's Kustom Stompa in a CAD with 2 squads of Gretchin and take it with a Great Waagh Detachment with Council of Waagh and Waagh-Band?
If I can, they both say they must be taken as the Warlord in your Army (Buzzgob and Ghaz). Who trumps who?
ETA: Right now I'm 2nd overall in the ITC, and Top Orks, so people will be gunning for me somewhat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
saidinwg wrote: Can I take the Buzzgob's Kustom Stompa in a CAD with 2 squads of Gretchin and take it with a Great Waagh Detachment with Council of Waagh and Waagh-Band?
If I can, they both say they must be taken as the Warlord in your Army (Buzzgob and Ghaz). Who trumps who?
Buzzgob only has to be your warlord if taken as part of a Dread Mob army. Because you aren't using a Dread Mob army, and you are taking his Stompa which changes him to Lord of War, you will need to take an additional HQ for your CAD. For Instance a Big Mek. Then you can make Ghaz your warlord, and do your thing.
ETA: Right now I'm 2nd overall in the ITC, and Top Orks, so people will be gunning for me somewhat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
saidinwg wrote: Can I take the Buzzgob's Kustom Stompa in a CAD with 2 squads of Gretchin and take it with a Great Waagh Detachment with Council of Waagh and Waagh-Band?
If I can, they both say they must be taken as the Warlord in your Army (Buzzgob and Ghaz). Who trumps who?
Buzzgob only has to be your warlord if taken as part of a Dread Mob army. Because you aren't using a Dread Mob army, and you are taking his Stompa which changes him to Lord of War, you will need to take an additional HQ for your CAD. For Instance a Big Mek. Then you can make Ghaz your warlord, and do your thing.
I like your list, but where did you get the void shield generators from? I didn't know orks could take those.
ETA: Right now I'm 2nd overall in the ITC, and Top Orks, so people will be gunning for me somewhat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
saidinwg wrote: Can I take the Buzzgob's Kustom Stompa in a CAD with 2 squads of Gretchin and take it with a Great Waagh Detachment with Council of Waagh and Waagh-Band?
If I can, they both say they must be taken as the Warlord in your Army (Buzzgob and Ghaz). Who trumps who?
Buzzgob only has to be your warlord if taken as part of a Dread Mob army. Because you aren't using a Dread Mob army, and you are taking his Stompa which changes him to Lord of War, you will need to take an additional HQ for your CAD. For Instance a Big Mek. Then you can make Ghaz your warlord, and do your thing.
I like your list, but where did you get the void shield generators from? I didn't know orks could take those.
They're from the stronghold assault supplement, where you can buy different fortifications for pretty much all other factions. The actual model however is sold out so you usually just scratch build it yourself like I have or find one off ebay but that's usually at too high a price tag for most.
ETA: Right now I'm 2nd overall in the ITC, and Top Orks, so people will be gunning for me somewhat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
saidinwg wrote: Can I take the Buzzgob's Kustom Stompa in a CAD with 2 squads of Gretchin and take it with a Great Waagh Detachment with Council of Waagh and Waagh-Band?
If I can, they both say they must be taken as the Warlord in your Army (Buzzgob and Ghaz). Who trumps who?
Buzzgob only has to be your warlord if taken as part of a Dread Mob army. Because you aren't using a Dread Mob army, and you are taking his Stompa which changes him to Lord of War, you will need to take an additional HQ for your CAD. For Instance a Big Mek. Then you can make Ghaz your warlord, and do your thing.
I like your list, but where did you get the void shield generators from? I didn't know orks could take those.
They're from the stronghold assault supplement, where you can buy different fortifications for pretty much all other factions. The actual model however is sold out so you usually just scratch build it yourself like I have or find one off ebay but that's usually at too high a price tag for most.
I doubt the answer is yes but can you take buzzgrobs stompa in a great waagh detachment (and/or zhardsnark for that matter)? The 6th Ed update says you can take it as a normal codex choice but I doubt the stompa choice in the great waaagh detachment means all types of stompas.
I have a Deff Dread with 4 power klaws. (Pics are linked in my sig). The rulebook says I get bonus attacks with the power klaws. (Specialist weapon says I get +1 bonus attack with each power klaw, if I interpreted that correctly). Assuming each power klaw gets 3 attacks, plus 1 bonus for each power klaw, I would get 16 attacks total. Is this correct, or did I do my math wrong?
Walkers gain extra attacks differently to infanty, walkers gain one extra attack for each additional close combat weapon after the first. Deff dreads come with a base profile of 3 attacks and are equipped with two power klaws, so they also gain one additional attack from their wargear. If you pay the points cost for another two power klaws the deff dread will gain two more attacks, taking it to a total of 6 attacks.
xlDuke wrote: Walkers gain extra attacks differently to infanty, walkers gain one extra attack for each additional close combat weapon after the first. Deff dreads come with a base profile of 3 attacks and are equipped with two power klaws, so they also gain one additional attack from their wargear. If you pay the points cost for another two power klaws the deff dread will gain two more attacks, taking it to a total of 6 attacks.
koooaei wrote: That's kinda homeruled cause FW clearly stated they underpriced it by 400 pts.
Define clearly because afaik they never made any public statement nor have I seen any statement. I've heard people say they recieved emails back but even the two emails I saw contradicted themselves. One reply stated you had to pay for buzzgrob, the big Mek stomp and then add 300 more points. The other said it was just a stompa and 300 points. And a third reply I've never seen claimed you just need to pay for buzzgrob and that 300 was a misprint and should be 880 as per apoc. This is about as clear as mud. That's three different supposed emails not even including the official 6th Ed update which is what ITC uses. At least that update is clear pay for buzzgrob and add 300 points for a big Mek stompa.
The one question I have for you is if fw has gone back and updated PDFs before because the used the wrong profiles why in the world haven't they gone back and changed the point cost on this PDF in over three years? It makes no sense.
They haven't gone back because orks make them jack moneywise. People are fine buying a unique sculpt for marine dreadnaught #32, but that is 200+ points on the field. Forgeworld is asking 70+ dollars for what is essentially an ork trukk with a lobba on it. Also orks tend to scratch build things. Have you ever seen an ork player with more than one of the official mek guns? No because the cost is stupid. IA8 won't get a remake, they are done trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Next is tau vs admech, things that as a company will make them money.
They don't update because why bother? We were lucky to get hull points for what we did have. I honestly don't expect to see a new Ork forgeworld model for a loooong time.
Hmmm, its an interesting premise Orock. And with Orks I sort of agree.
But it dsoent explain gak releases for Nids, Chaos, DE etc who have sold because they are very unique models and sculpts that cant be kitbashed and have a unique aesthetic and form.
I dont think IA8 will get an update personally (I actually emailed FW about it: no awnser) but I think Orks will get a "full" 7.5 codex. Whether its gak or not remains to be seen.....
Nids and dark eldar can't easily replicate or in many cases improve on forgeworld options (easily, seen great examples by talented hobbyists) so they have little choice. Buy FW or don't use it. I have 5 scratch built grot tanks, mega and meka dreads, warkoptas, zjadsnark, and others that I made for 1/10th what I would have been charged. And they look good and unique and so far not one person has batted an eyelash when I field them and say this represents unit X. So it makes sense for forgeworld to abandon me. I'm not making them a dime, except for the GW kits I canabalize for them. But again that won't show on their profit credit sheet, so even though there may be thousands of proxies, all their books show is "orks don't sell".
What FWshould do, is provide grab-bags of mis-cast parts from all their lines, (there will be miss-casts), and lines of small, high-detail components and gubbins. A variety of bitz that are zzapy, some bits that are killy, some bits that are 'ard, some that are shooty. Don't say they're any specific weapon or piece of wargear, but make them just generally orky bitz- price them at a few dollars each (maybe 50 cents per ounce of material or something like that?), sell them as singles and as economy-priced packs of multiples. Ork players would eat that up. Especially things like track assemblies and wheels, glyph plates and varieties of Shoota and shoulderpad and Powerklaw and Deffdred arms. Don't try to sell entire models, though.
Nids and dark eldar can't easily replicate or in many cases improve on forgeworld options (easily, seen great examples by talented hobbyists) so they have little choice. Buy FW or don't use it. I have 5 scratch built grot tanks, mega and meka dreads, warkoptas, zjadsnark, and others that I made for 1/10th what I would have been charged. And they look good and unique and so far not one person has batted an eyelash when I field them and say this represents unit X. So it makes sense for forgeworld to abandon me. I'm not making them a dime, except for the GW kits I canabalize for them. But again that won't show on their profit credit sheet, so even though there may be thousands of proxies, all their books show is "orks don't sell".
You miss my point though. Nids are at this stage unique enough, model-wise and rules and copywrite wise for GW to be able to sell them bigtime!
Even the smaller indie kickstarters and game houses cant replicate the idea/aesthetic and "feel" of the Nids. GW did well - lets give them credit here.
However the Nids core rulebook (and supps) are gak.
So.
How are GW hating on Orks?
They arent. They just have gak rules writers or oversight of both factions :(
Anvildude wrote: What FWshould do, is provide grab-bags of mis-cast parts from all their lines, (there will be miss-casts), and lines of small, high-detail components and gubbins. A variety of bitz that are zzapy, some bits that are killy, some bits that are 'ard, some that are shooty. Don't say they're any specific weapon or piece of wargear, but make them just generally orky bitz- price them at a few dollars each (maybe 50 cents per ounce of material or something like that?), sell them as singles and as economy-priced packs of multiples. Ork players would eat that up. Especially things like track assemblies and wheels, glyph plates and varieties of Shoota and shoulderpad and Powerklaw and Deffdred arms. Don't try to sell entire models, though.
They USED to have mail order. You could order any and all bits you wanted. Some genius decided it would make them more money NOT doing this and instead making you buy a kit for the parts you want. Then eBay came along and proved them wrong.
they nerfed units that didnt need nerfing (killa kanz, burnas, lootas, footnobz, dakkajet), gave us an abysmal new toy which is unusual for any race, gave us restrictions nobody else has in terms of relic options, and they removed our invul save.
Thats just part of the gak they have to deal with now. How are they NOT hating on orks? Not even the Nid codex release was that bad.
Quite literally the only buffs orks got are warbiker pricing is good and Da Lucky Stikk is epic. Thats it. Stormboyz got "buffed" by a major price cut but they rendered it completely fethin useless by giving them all dangertests to utilize the speed they already had WITHOUT dangertests. I would put Mek Gunz in that list of buffs, but loss of a Runtherder makes them very, very susceptible to leadership issues (LD5)
Hell, they nerfed SHOOTA BOYZ...the frick would you nerf shoota boyz for (that 1pt adds up with standard boy numbers). Yeah, stikkbombs are stock now but we dont care were init2 anyway. Deffrolla is completely utterly useless now, while before it was just a gimick that had some potential. Cant even say they gave us run and charge during the waaagh because we had that pre-6th. Thats something that should have been faq'd in the moment 6th/7th dropped, not wait for a new damn codex.
Also I was not commenting on who had better or worse rules. The fact is model stats change. A crappy nid forgeworld model today may on the book upgrade becomes fantastic. Or edition may change and make their rules suddenly favorable. When that happens forgeworld makes money from more sales out of interest of the model having new good rules.
But do you know what happens when ork models suddenly become viable? That's right, orks up and scratch build them to use. Forgeworld might see ten? precent increased sales.
Thats why I don't think you will see them anymore, good or bad rules. They are trying to sell a premium item at a premium price, but it's something you can build at home that won't be as good, but will save you a mint. Easily replicated premium products don't sell.
Orock wrote: They haven't gone back because orks make them jack moneywise. People are fine buying a unique sculpt for marine dreadnaught #32, but that is 200+ points on the field. Forgeworld is asking 70+ dollars for what is essentially an ork trukk with a lobba on it. Also orks tend to scratch build things. Have you ever seen an ork player with more than one of the official mek guns? No because the cost is stupid. IA8 won't get a remake, they are done trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Next is tau vs admech, things that as a company will make them money.
They don't update because why bother? We were lucky to get hull points for what we did have. I honestly don't expect to see a new Ork forgeworld model for a loooong time.
Yep, I bought exactly one official Mek Gunz and scratch built the rest using mostly imperium bits with some cosmetic Ork bits on top. They are exactly the same size and look great. I'd buy more Mek Gunz if three were the price of one.
I don't scratch build or convert my Orks but I usually use eBay for new purchases, if they released rules that did the models justice then I would happily buy an obscene amount of stuff from GW and Forgeworld, I'm holding out hope that our IA gets updated and the models re-released because I'd love to add some new vehicles to my mek shop.
I'm aware that this approach might give the company the impression that a new release won't be successful because sales are low (if they are) at the moment, but from the other releases I see coming out they're obviously aware that good rules will mean good sales.
Orock wrote: They haven't gone back because orks make them jack moneywise. People are fine buying a unique sculpt for marine dreadnaught #32, but that is 200+ points on the field. Forgeworld is asking 70+ dollars for what is essentially an ork trukk with a lobba on it. Also orks tend to scratch build things. Have you ever seen an ork player with more than one of the official mek guns? No because the cost is stupid. IA8 won't get a remake, they are done trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Next is tau vs admech, things that as a company will make them money.
They don't update because why bother? We were lucky to get hull points for what we did have. I honestly don't expect to see a new Ork forgeworld model for a loooong time.
So basically you have no reason why forgeworld couldn't be bothered to update this PDF or any reason why there is at best 4 different repliesn saying completely different things. Got it ....Thanks for clearing it up.
Forgeworld can't be bothered to update for the same reason GW does not give enough of a s@$t to faq their books. Someone in the company said "doing this makes us no money and in fact can discourage sales once the rule is clarified to be weaker than originally thought, potentially discouraging someone from buying what at first glance seemed like a really solid unit".
And there is no reason to be snarky. People tried to give you insight on what and why the thought processes may be for this obvious customer neglect, and your reply boils down to "so basically none of you know for sure, thanks for nothing". If you are looking for official GW responses, you will be waiting a while.
You got it no one has any clue what the actual rules are for this unit... That's my point. I don't expect a response from GW. I also don't expect a response from people on the internet pretending they know the actual rules when there isn't any consensus or any official statement on the rules. In fact your still assuming the 6th Ed update isn't what fw intended especially since the bs2 lifta droppa was nerfed to worthlessness on 90% of the targets in 40k.
For some reason GW have a problem to point price things, for example a BW with all its weapon options and 'ard case costs 185 with 12 transport capacity and its not an assault vehicle, a land raider costs 240-250 and has better weapons better armour 12 to 16 capasity power of the machine spirit and it is assault vehicle.
And not to mention things like gorkanaut vs dreadknight or wraithknight
I get the part that orks don't make a lot of profit for GW but why then its one of the 2 options for the market campain of the battle for Vedros? (product to attract new players)
As much as I hate a lot of the points costs in the codex they aren't entirely wrong. If you go back to Ed3 Codex Orks you could buy a nobs mob with a 3+ /5++ a power Klaw and a big shoota and LD8 with a reroll for about 80+ points.
If you take into account the teff economy it makes more sense.
Why would anything worth using be affordable at all? This also drives the use of Boys mobs. Sadly Boys mobs are ....... not nearly as strong as they were over the lase several editions.
I don't see comparing the Ork codex in any edition to any codex other than Orks. Orks are always about a form of internal balance or imbalance if you prefer.
So far the only good and possible improvement I am seeing is the inclusion of aircraft squads and any other formation that allows more than one of a kind to be taken. ( This puts me up to 5 vehicle formations I like ...and I think that's it.)
The points costs could be mitigated easily enough by just giving orks more options to choose from rather than less.
I'd still be all for free trukks and that sort of thing but I doubt it will ever happen.
So far I've used the blitz bomber Squadron and am impressed, despite my rolling being so bad on armour-pens and the damage table...
thenewgozoku wrote: For some reason GW have a problem to point price things, for example a BW with all its weapon options and 'ard case costs 185 with 12 transport capacity and its not an assault vehicle, a land raider costs 240-250 and has better weapons better armour 12 to 16 capasity power of the machine spirit and it is assault vehicle.
And not to mention things like gorkanaut vs dreadknight or wraithknight
I get the part that orks don't make a lot of profit for GW but why then its one of the 2 options for the market campain of the battle for Vedros? (product to attract new players)
The same reason all their get started boxes have rules designed to push models no one is buying, like nobs or deff dreads. They have old stock they need to move thru, and the old ork vehicles at least dont use much plastic, so recycling them does not net you as much as putting them in a new box and liquidating them cheap, especially if it draws in more committed customers.
thats why they dont make much money because the rules are so bad.
Its one thing to have units that arent auto-win button strong, its another to have them be so weak they literally never do anything. Majority of the ork codex falls under that mentality.
Orks arent even fun to play anymore because theyre so behind the curve of power. Fun should be the main reason you play this game, and getting tabled turn3 every game isnt fun. If i lose but i went down swinging and he only has a few units left after i die off, i had fun. When i lose and he still has 2/3 his army because he killed damn near half mine in 1 shooting phase, i didnt have fun.
I ended up top Orks at March Maddness and 5th overall.
Game 1: Space Wolves in Drop Pods. I won comfortably.
Game 2: Tyranids. We were using the 2015 missions, and I couldn't roll Maelstrom to save my life, so we tied it.
Game 3: Eldar. This was a really complicated game because of our table, and my opponent and I have dramatically different ideas on how terrain worked. It was also my weakest mission. Another Tie.
Game 4: White Scars Bikes. We had lots of early game rules back and forward, and spent alot of the time getting judges rulings. Our game ended at the bottom of 4. I need to make a 9" charge. I failed. He won. If it had gone on to 6, Maybe.
Game 5: Grey Knights. I Tabled Him.
Game 6: Stompa v Stompa deathbattle. I came out on top. Tabled him.
I ended up going 3-1-2 for a total score of 4040 which was good enough for 5th place overall.
I wish I had game 3 and 4 back, to do a better job prenegotiating the rules debates. Usually I'm playing at a high enough table, that I don't have to contend with so many rules debates, and especially in Game 4, my opponent was a top tier player, so I wasn't expecting so much, but he was just unfamiliar with the ITC a bit. The time lost debating rules was as much a problem for me in those games as anything else. Also, they ended up ruling that Mek's are HQ's even if I attach them to another unit, and that screwed up my list quite a bit, because I had to put them all inside the Stompa, and there wasn't enough room for Gretchin + Lootas.
There were 5 total Ork players in attendance. 4 Stompas, and one Orcurion Trukk rush list (No Ghaz). Another Stompa list ended up 4-2. The top 3 were Eldar (#1 was Eldar + Harliquins + Corsairs). The 4th ranked player was Tau.
tag8833 wrote: I ended up top Orks at March Maddness and 5th overall.
Game 1: Space Wolves in Drop Pods. I won comfortably.
Game 2: Tyranids. We were using the 2015 missions, and I couldn't roll Maelstrom to save my life, so we tied it.
Game 3: Eldar. This was a really complicated game because of our table, and my opponent and I have dramatically different ideas on how terrain worked. It was also my weakest mission. Another Tie.
Game 4: White Scars Bikes. We had lots of early game rules back and forward, and spent alot of the time getting judges rulings. Our game ended at the bottom of 4. I need to make a 9" charge. I failed. He won. If it had gone on to 6, Maybe.
Game 5: Grey Knights. I Tabled Him.
Game 6: Stompa v Stompa deathbattle. I came out on top. Tabled him.
I ended up going 3-1-2 for a total score of 4040 which was good enough for 5th place overall.
I wish I had game 3 and 4 back, to do a better job prenegotiating the rules debates. Usually I'm playing at a high enough table, that I don't have to contend with so many rules debates, and especially in Game 4, my opponent was a top tier player, so I wasn't expecting so much, but he was just unfamiliar with the ITC a bit. The time lost debating rules was as much a problem for me in those games as anything else. Also, they ended up ruling that Mek's are HQ's even if I attach them to another unit, and that screwed up my list quite a bit, because I had to put them all inside the Stompa, and there wasn't enough room for Gretchin + Lootas.
There were 5 total Ork players in attendance. 4 Stompas, and one Orcurion Trukk rush list (No Ghaz). Another Stompa list ended up 4-2. The top 3 were Eldar (#1 was Eldar + Harliquins + Corsairs). The 4th ranked player was Tau.
Ratius wrote: I saw a guy say a stompa could get 14 attacks as a claw stompa? What is that guys?
That my friend is a kustom Stompa from IA:8 turned into a klawfrenzy stompa. You have to give him two titan close combat weapons. Stompa is base 4 attack. Each arm addes an additional 3 attacks. (FW Imperial: apoc book faq for that) Klawfrenzy gives him an additional 3 attacks. Then plus 1 for two weapons. 4+3+3+3+1=14 Now you are I1 so be careful how you charge into combat with. A knight can still kill you if he strikes first. Suggestion hide in terrain. Get them to come to you.
koooaei wrote: That's kinda homeruled cause FW clearly stated they underpriced it by 400 pts.
Define clearly because afaik they never made any public statement nor have I seen any statement. I've heard people say they recieved emails back but even the two emails I saw contradicted themselves. One reply stated you had to pay for buzzgrob, the big Mek stomp and then add 300 more points. The other said it was just a stompa and 300 points. And a third reply I've never seen claimed you just need to pay for buzzgrob and that 300 was a misprint and should be 880 as per apoc. This is about as clear as mud. That's three different supposed emails not even including the official 6th Ed update which is what ITC uses. At least that update is clear pay for buzzgrob and add 300 points for a big Mek stompa.
The one question I have for you is if fw has gone back and updated PDFs before because the used the wrong profiles why in the world haven't they gone back and changed the point cost on this PDF in over three years? It makes no sense.
The source of where the points discrepcies is from FW old facebook page, which you can't see anymore, but if you e-mail them about it they will tell you it should cost 800pts. Personally I've not been able to tell me how it breaks down. Because its supposed to be buzzgob+ his stompa. If you want to use Buzzgob stompa, you should check with TO before the event to see if they are going to allow it and how many point it is. Personally, the couple times i've played it, we've just gone with what the pdf says.
koooaei wrote: That's kinda homeruled cause FW clearly stated they underpriced it by 400 pts.
Define clearly because afaik they never made any public statement nor have I seen any statement. I've heard people say they recieved emails back but even the two emails I saw contradicted themselves. One reply stated you had to pay for buzzgrob, the big Mek stomp and then add 300 more points. The other said it was just a stompa and 300 points. And a third reply I've never seen claimed you just need to pay for buzzgrob and that 300 was a misprint and should be 880 as per apoc. This is about as clear as mud. That's three different supposed emails not even including the official 6th Ed update which is what ITC uses. At least that update is clear pay for buzzgrob and add 300 points for a big Mek stompa.
The one question I have for you is if fw has gone back and updated PDFs before because the used the wrong profiles why in the world haven't they gone back and changed the point cost on this PDF in over three years? It makes no sense.
The source of where the points discrepcies is from FW old facebook page, which you can't see anymore, but if you e-mail them about it they will tell you it should cost 800pts. Personally I've not been able to tell me how it breaks down. Because its supposed to be buzzgob+ his stompa. If you want to use Buzzgob stompa, you should check with TO before the event to see if they are going to allow it and how many point it is. Personally, the couple times i've played it, we've just gone with what the pdf says.
When I emailed them more than a year ago, they said buzzgob's Stompa upgrade was supposed to be 830 points, just like an ordinary big mek stompa, and that it was a typo. They also indicated that they might fix the pdf to fix the typo, but a month or so later I followed up with them, and they said something like, "That pdf is 3 Ork codexes, and 2 main rulebooks old, and you'll just have to wait until IA8 gets a rerelease, but you won't have to wait long". That was a year ago.
koooaei wrote: That's kinda homeruled cause FW clearly stated they underpriced it by 400 pts.
Define clearly because afaik they never made any public statement nor have I seen any statement. I've heard people say they recieved emails back but even the two emails I saw contradicted themselves. One reply stated you had to pay for buzzgrob, the big Mek stomp and then add 300 more points. The other said it was just a stompa and 300 points. And a third reply I've never seen claimed you just need to pay for buzzgrob and that 300 was a misprint and should be 880 as per apoc. This is about as clear as mud. That's three different supposed emails not even including the official 6th Ed update which is what ITC uses. At least that update is clear pay for buzzgrob and add 300 points for a big Mek stompa.
The one question I have for you is if fw has gone back and updated PDFs before because the used the wrong profiles why in the world haven't they gone back and changed the point cost on this PDF in over three years? It makes no sense.
The source of where the points discrepcies is from FW old facebook page, which you can't see anymore, but if you e-mail them about it they will tell you it should cost 800pts. Personally I've not been able to tell me how it breaks down. Because its supposed to be buzzgob+ his stompa. If you want to use Buzzgob stompa, you should check with TO before the event to see if they are going to allow it and how many point it is. Personally, the couple times i've played it, we've just gone with what the pdf says.
When I emailed them more than a year ago, they said buzzgob's Stompa upgrade was supposed to be 830 points, just like an ordinary big mek stompa, and that it was a typo. They also indicated that they might fix the pdf to fix the typo, but a month or so later I followed up with them, and they said something like, "That pdf is 3 Ork codexes, and 2 main rulebooks old, and you'll just have to wait until IA8 gets a rerelease, but you won't have to wait long". That was a year ago.
Someone said they recently received an email from them stating there is no known timeframe for IA8 and that a future IA book with Orks may come at a later time. The rumour reportedly is IA8 models hasn't sold as well as they liked Elysium models don't sell as well as krieg models except for the vulture gunship with punisher cannons, Raven guard stuff was not selling except for a few korvydae models, and most of the ork models wasn't a big seller except bikes and zhardsnark.
tag8833 wrote: When I emailed them more than a year ago, they said buzzgob's Stompa upgrade was supposed to be 830 points, just like an ordinary big mek stompa, and that it was a typo. They also indicated that they might fix the pdf to fix the typo, but a month or so later I followed up with them, and they said something like, "That pdf is 3 Ork codexes, and 2 main rulebooks old, and you'll just have to wait until IA8 gets a rerelease, but you won't have to wait long". That was a year ago.
Someone said they recently received an email from them stating there is no known timeframe for IA8 and that a future IA book with Orks may come at a later time. The rumour reportedly is IA8 models hasn't sold as well as they liked Elysium models don't sell as well as krieg models except for the vulture gunship with punisher cannons, Raven guard stuff was not selling except for a few korvydae models, and most of the ork models wasn't a big seller except bikes and zhardsnark.
GW have shown time again that rules sell models.
Look at the Skyhammer, the fluff reasons why the models gain those bonuses is pitiful. They make no sense. But it's very effective, and devistator and assault marine sales went up.
Now no one wants to see Orks OP, but some things don't sell because the rules are just bad.
The source of where the points discrepcies is from FW old facebook page, which you can't see anymore, but if you e-mail them about it they will tell you it should cost 800pts. Personally I've not been able to tell me how it breaks down. Because its supposed to be buzzgob+ his stompa. If you want to use Buzzgob stompa, you should check with TO before the event to see if they are going to allow it and how many point it is. Personally, the couple times i've played it, we've just gone with what the pdf says.
I've had different responses from FW, including you simply roll a die to see if it's allowed! One time here around 6 people emailed them at the same time so they obviously had a conflab and were more consistent, and on the sixth or 7th email said it was a misprint, that you had to pay extra for the stompa as it's scoring...
I used to think it was unfair but now I think it's reasonable to go with the rules as written. Stompa being remodelled as we speak...
koooaei wrote: That's kinda homeruled cause FW clearly stated they underpriced it by 400 pts.
Define clearly because afaik they never made any public statement nor have I seen any statement. I've heard people say they recieved emails back but even the two emails I saw contradicted themselves. One reply stated you had to pay for buzzgrob, the big Mek stomp and then add 300 more points. The other said it was just a stompa and 300 points. And a third reply I've never seen claimed you just need to pay for buzzgrob and that 300 was a misprint and should be 880 as per apoc. This is about as clear as mud. That's three different supposed emails not even including the official 6th Ed update which is what ITC uses. At least that update is clear pay for buzzgrob and add 300 points for a big Mek stompa.
The one question I have for you is if fw has gone back and updated PDFs before because the used the wrong profiles why in the world haven't they gone back and changed the point cost on this PDF in over three years? It makes no sense.
The source of where the points discrepcies is from FW old facebook page, which you can't see anymore, but if you e-mail them about it they will tell you it should cost 800pts. Personally I've not been able to tell me how it breaks down. Because its supposed to be buzzgob+ his stompa. If you want to use Buzzgob stompa, you should check with TO before the event to see if they are going to allow it and how many point it is. Personally, the couple times i've played it, we've just gone with what the pdf says.
When I emailed them more than a year ago, they said buzzgob's Stompa upgrade was supposed to be 830 points, just like an ordinary big mek stompa, and that it was a typo. They also indicated that they might fix the pdf to fix the typo, but a month or so later I followed up with them, and they said something like, "That pdf is 3 Ork codexes, and 2 main rulebooks old, and you'll just have to wait until IA8 gets a rerelease, but you won't have to wait long". That was a year ago.
Someone said they recently received an email from them stating there is no known timeframe for IA8 and that a future IA book with Orks may come at a later time. The rumour reportedly is IA8 models hasn't sold as well as they liked Elysium models don't sell as well as krieg models except for the vulture gunship with punisher cannons, Raven guard stuff was not selling except for a few korvydae models, and most of the ork models wasn't a big seller except bikes and zhardsnark.
I think the orks got left behind when they started to update the armies for the newer editions of 40k. IA8 is closer to 5th edition I believe. Honestly, the only thing orks need are some new rules and price adjustments. For example, give the ork warkopta deep strike. I'd own 2-3 of those. Cyberorks are awesome, but way over cost in points. Gort tanks are cool, maybe just take their apoc formation and make it a regular formation. (Same for the Warhopta/ deffkopta formation)
The other thing is as ork players, we build are own things. FW makes awesome models, but the price can be a little too much. Why pay $100+ shipping when you can loot something and make your own.
Example My Mek junka
Still a WIP, but the turret comes off for any of the options. Plus it doubles as my flakkatrak.
Yeah, lol. Its a pretty nice model. I usually play mine with a SAG Turret because who does not like SAG spam
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now for a discussion, in the interest of making Orks more competitive, what have we gained in the W!G book to help us with that?
Personally, I like the air armada. The ability to auto fix our plans and get our bombs back. Not a big fan of the screaming decent rule, but I can deal with it. I believe that if you wanted to use this formation, a defense line with Com relay is required.
The battle wagon formation and bully boyz are still some good formations to take as well.
Lord Corellia wrote: So which books do I need now to do anything with Orks? Codex, Waaagh! Ghazkull and IA8?
Besides bikers and Tankbustas, what are my good units? I take it the old "Boyz before toyz" is long outdated? Are Lootas still any good?
Codex Ork and Waagh! Ghaz are the two you can buy right now. FW has pulled IA8 from its site. Lootas are still good. They did not get changed when the codex got updated. I think they moved from an elite slot to a heavy. The Big gunz/Mek gunz are pretty nice. There is no restrictions on the number of 'ard boyz you want to have now.
Lord Corellia wrote: So which books do I need now to do anything with Orks? Codex, Waaagh! Ghazkull and IA8?
Besides bikers and Tankbustas, what are my good units? I take it the old "Boyz before toyz" is long outdated? Are Lootas still any good?
Have a look at the first post of this discussion, Waaagh 18 (and others) has done a pretty good job at ranking the different units.
The way I see it, beside a few exceptions, we have no formations for our powerful units, but we have a lot of formations for the weaker ones. That sucks.
gungo wrote: I doubt the answer is yes but can you take buzzgrobs stompa in a great waagh detachment (and/or zhardsnark for that matter)? The 6th Ed update says you can take it as a normal codex choice but I doubt the stompa choice in the great waaagh detachment means all types of stompas.
That also means you cannot take them in the Great Waaagh-band, as it only allows for certains units and choices. If you take a CAD with factions orks you are good tho.
Anyone play with an ammunition dump? I feel like, even if you don't use any other fortification, at least learn to build and use that on a large squad of Lootas or something
Rismonite wrote: Anyone play with an ammunition dump? I feel like, even if you don't use any other fortification, at least learn to build and use that on a large squad of Lootas or something
Oh yeah, I've done it with my lootas. You can get about 10 of them around the ammo dump. Personally, I take the bastion for it. Bastion, ammo dump and barricades
FW might not redo ia13, but they have to do something. They have ork models, and maybe 3 of them actualy have rules in books stI'll sold. How do you sell models for a game without rules? It's probably going to be like a small booklet or another "update". But still there has to be something, and not just the dreddmob update that is hidden on the web.
Yeah for real. How can they expect to sell anything without rules? Unless it has "Experimental rules" to download its incredibly hard to get rules for just about any FW model now, since whats still available is also insanely outdated.
Garg Squiggoth is the only ork one i can think of that isnt plagued by new/old rule conflicts. But the garg squiggoth isnt nearly powerful enough to justify that hefty pricetag.
Rismonite wrote: Anyone play with an ammunition dump? I feel like, even if you don't use any other fortification, at least learn to build and use that on a large squad of Lootas or something
Can't help thinking that an extra loota is better. Re-rolling 1-s for 10 lootas is like 1.66 extra lootas. However, when the number of lootas goes down, the effect also does. But when you get 1-2 extra bodies instead, it remains constant, helps morale a bit and doesn't force you to bunch up to meet an inevitable template.
Rismonite wrote: Anyone play with an ammunition dump? I feel like, even if you don't use any other fortification, at least learn to build and use that on a large squad of Lootas or something
Yes you do need to model the ammo dump. I believe its the size of the base piece for the quad-gun. The ammo dump is an upgrade for fortifications that allows a model within 3" re-roll 1's. You could use a bigger squad, just have to remember that only the models with in 3" get the reroll. The only issue is that if you get shot by a blast maker, you are going to give up a lot of wounds if a direct hit is rolled. You could use the ammo dump for artillery pieces? Kustom mega kannon now gets to reroll its gets hot roll test.
On the note of fortifications, Pipe line + burnas can really screw with any unit that is out on foot. You gain torrent on the burnas, even if they are in a transport. Don't think I would use a battle wagon, but a looted wagon or mek junka would be good. You do need to be open top to make this effective.
I thought about trading out some of my trukks for warkoptas. Same armor values, but different weapons. The nice thing is the warkoptas can jink. The warkopta can't carry mega nobs, but can be in squads. I don't think this is a great idea for them. The plus side is you can get a TL rattle kannon and a scorcha. The warkopa comes in about twice the cost of a trukk, but is not a dedicated transport. Just a thought I had.
I thought about trading out some of my trukks for warkoptas. Same armor values, but different weapons. The nice thing is the warkoptas can jink. The warkopta can't carry mega nobs, but can be in squads. I don't think this is a great idea for them. The plus side is you can get a TL rattle kannon and a scorcha. The warkopa comes in about twice the cost of a trukk, but is not a dedicated transport. Just a thought I had.
I prefer Trukks if I'm honest, it's still AV10 so meh. I only rate Venoms because of the invulnerable save and high amount of shots they can dish out.
Besides, a lot of my FA slots are used for Deffkoptas. Which I can take with a Trukk for the same price as a Warkopta.
Lord Corellia wrote: So which books do I need now to do anything with Orks? Codex, Waaagh! Ghazkull and IA8?
Besides bikers and Tankbustas, what are my good units? I take it the old "Boyz before toyz" is long outdated? Are Lootas still any good?
heh. A sign this thread is kind of ridiculously too long...it's devolved into a general on going discussion., but questions like that are generally answered early on (and the first post is updated as the convo evolves).
@Glithca: now *that* is an intriguing idea!!! Transports that can jink! I hadn't considered that.
Lord Corellia wrote: So which books do I need now to do anything with Orks? Codex, Waaagh! Ghazkull and IA8?
Besides bikers and Tankbustas, what are my good units? I take it the old "Boyz before toyz" is long outdated? Are Lootas still any good?
heh. A sign this thread is kind of ridiculously too long...it's devolved into a general on going discussion., but questions like that are generally answered early on (and the first post is updated as the convo evolves).
@Glithca: now *that* is an intriguing idea!!! Transports that can jink! I hadn't considered that.
Yes can jink and has more gunz. You have to give up a fast attack slot, but you can zip around the table. You also don;t have to worry about terrain being in your way you can fly over it. but you take the risk of crashing into it on a 1.
So I'm about to (finally) finish up a squad of deffkotpas. Running three of them solo has done decent work, but they're not quite as tough as I'd like to be running them on their own, so I'm probably going to try running them in squads of five to avoid morale issues, at least for the first death. I'm aware I can plop an HQ on a bike with them, though that gets rid of their delicious 24'' turbo-boost. After some thinking, though, would it not be a bad idea to replace my squad of 9 bikers with a squad of 5 deffkoptas?
The deffkotpas are cheaper (I run them naked with TL rokkits), go faster, and have the same number of wounds as the 9 bikers (+1 for the nob). The deffkoptas ignore terrain and have a better weapon, at least in my opinion. They're also a smaller unit, which makes it easier to maneuver them while still staying effective. The bikers, on the other hand, character and BP, giving them a decent chance (2/3 chance if my math is correct) of not running from a failed morale check. They're also better in melee (though I've never had great success with my bikers in CC). Granted, I could take both, but if it comes down to one or the other, wouldn't deffkoptas be a slightly better option, regardless of their morale issues?
Then again, it could just be me- my bikers seem to be cursed. They always die to shooting in the first turn since they're huge targets, do horrid with their shooting, or get hunted down by better bike units. Honestly, the best work they've ever done was getting eaten by a pack of wulfen that put those furry feths in perfect range for my lootas to smash.
It's been my experience that anything I make big enough to be worth shooting first gets shot first. You make them big like your bikes, they'll get shot first by the same Ignores Cover AP4 giving your bikes hell.
Your meta sounds like it needs to meet a Blitz Brigade loaded with the Bully Boyz and 30 Tankbustas. Or perhaps a WAAAGH! Tide large enough to make the table collapse.
Rismonite wrote: It's been my experience that anything I make big enough to be worth shooting first gets shot first. You make them big like your bikes, they'll get shot first by the same Ignores Cover AP4 giving your bikes hell.
Your meta sounds like it needs to meet a Blitz Brigade loaded with the Bully Boyz and 30 Tankbustas. Or perhaps a WAAAGH! Tide large enough to make the table collapse.
Lately my local meta has been space wolves, space wolves, space wolves, and more space wolves. My past 4 out of 5 games have been space wolves. We once had 4 space wolves players across 3 tables. Honestly, they're a fun fight, but we need some damn variety. We do have a couple other armies, such as one eldar player floating around, but he's infrequent and usually tackles the necron player. We also have a demon guy, and 3 of us have a side ork army, though they don't usually bring them. But it's honestly not ignore cover that gets my bikes; it's usually them getting assaulted or fleeing after a few deaths by shooting.
I do want some Tankbustas though. Bjorn the Fellhanded wrecks my boyz pretty bad (as do most walkers), and it's hard to put him down. I feel tankbustas will really put a thorn in the old fart's side. I'm just not sure how to transport them since trukks are deathtraps for anything with a 6+ save, and battlewagons are a bit expensive. I am leaning towards plopping them in a BW loaded with rokkits and a kannon. Or just a naked BW, either-or.
Also it's a GW store so FW is out of the question.
my local meta is an asston of necrons. Funny thing is all except one picked up necrons before that new dex dropped or was even hinted at.
Makes me want to run orks even less. I consistently get hung up on warriors because pk's dont do jack against RP.
Also, i dont think a GW store would deny FW models. FW is owned by GW these days anyway.
Rismonite wrote: It's been my experience that anything I make big enough to be worth shooting first gets shot first. You make them big like your bikes, they'll get shot first by the same Ignores Cover AP4 giving your bikes hell.
Your meta sounds like it needs to meet a Blitz Brigade loaded with the Bully Boyz and 30 Tankbustas. Or perhaps a WAAAGH! Tide large enough to make the table collapse.
Lately my local meta has been space wolves, space wolves, space wolves, and more space wolves. My past 4 out of 5 games have been space wolves. We once had 4 space wolves players across 3 tables. Honestly, they're a fun fight, but we need some damn variety. We do have a couple other armies, such as one eldar player floating around, but he's infrequent and usually tackles the necron player. We also have a demon guy, and 3 of us have a side ork army, though they don't usually bring them. But it's honestly not ignore cover that gets my bikes; it's usually them getting assaulted or fleeing after a few deaths by shooting.
I do want some Tankbustas though. Bjorn the Fellhanded wrecks my boyz pretty bad (as do most walkers), and it's hard to put him down. I feel tankbustas will really put a thorn in the old fart's side. I'm just not sure how to transport them since trukks are deathtraps for anything with a 6+ save, and battlewagons are a bit expensive. I am leaning towards plopping them in a BW loaded with rokkits and a kannon. Or just a naked BW, either-or.
Also it's a GW store so FW is out of the question.
If your GW store does not allow FW, I'd find another store to play at. Seems kind of silly that they would not allow FW since they own the company. I can understand the whole, we don't carry that product in the store, but a lot of the most iconic models for 40k are/were FW.
Yeah, my term-time GW allows FW. I think my home-time does too, but only in the club that the manager runs. In store, it's a case of 'it's not stocked, so can't allow it'.
I'd run a fir sized (5) deffkopta unit, but I don't think I'd replace the bikes with the koptas. They serve different purposes in the game (and you may not have had luck, but the bikers are the better combat unit, and can be upgraded to nobz).
My local GW store manager has even allowed me to bring my potato head stompa - and in a game, no less.
So I've played the the new tactical format with the new cards. These is not an easy format and is even harder for us. During my game I draw 4 cards that where shoot a unit off the table This has prompted me to rebuild my list to something new. What is Orks greatest strengts/advantages? Cheap CQB units, cheap HQs, and massive amount of dice
Here is what i'm thinking:
Double CAD (Just going to list it all together)
HQ Mad Doc
Pain boy
Pain boy
Pain boy
Troops
6x 10 'ard boyz with a Nob with BP and PK in a Trukk with boarding plank and ram.
Fast attack
Dakka jet
Heavy support
10 lootas
2 zzap kannons
If you managed to get all the trukk boy squads into combat at once, you are looking at 240 Str 4 attacks and 28 str 9 ap 2 attacks. You also have 4 units with FNP and 1 unit with Rampage also. Thoughts?
Glitcha wrote: There is no restrictions on the number of 'ard boyz you want to have now.
So are 'Ard Boyz worth the extra points? Seems extremely unlikely to me. In most of my lists that's an extra 300-400 points just on the 'Ard Boyz upgrade. Seems an awful lot.
While it's more errata than faq and thus might not even be answered. I did ask in the faq thread on GW Facebook page if we can take ghazskull instead of warboss grukk or a warboss in a Goff kill mob or ork waagh band formation core choice in a great waaagh band detachment from the waaagh ghazskull supplement.
I doubt they would change it but if they do it will make the ork decorian a lot more competitive.
Glitcha wrote: Its actually more potent then you think, because it means in close combat you have a 4+ save and a FNP, instead of 6+.
This is basically what I've been doing for a while now (a few months) with a good deal of success (your dual CAD with painboyz in boyz units).
I've gotten into the habit of only taking my slugga/choppa boyz with eavy armour. I won't take them any other way. I've heard a lot of "the point of Orks is numbers...300-400 points is another 60-80 boyz, and thus 240-360 attacks!" And, well, yes, that's right. But how many of those boys will GET to where they need to go? What's their staying power once IN combat? Sure, by paying this extra I'm sacrificing a good number of extra boyz, but I've found that taking eavy armour and painboyz makes the (still substantial) number of boyz I DO have far more resiliant - and in ways my opponent isn't anticipating. They're used to Orks dying by the handful...and I'm removing 1-3 models. Eavy armour is also an effective way to mitigate Mob Rule: the odd time I fail a test, and get bashin' 'eads or squabble, I'll generally roll a 2-4 for hits, 1-2 for wounds, and the eavy armour will make short work of that (and FNP can cover any that get through). I absolutely believe spending more for fewer but more resilient Orks is the better choice than cheaper, more but dainty Orks.
General_K wrote: This is basically what I've been doing for a while now (a few months) with a good deal of success (your dual CAD with painboyz in boyz units).
I've gotten into the habit of only taking my slugga/choppa boyz with eavy armour. I won't take them any other way. I've heard a lot of "the point of Orks is numbers...300-400 points is another 60-80 boyz, and thus 240-360 attacks!" And, well, yes, that's right. But how many of those boys will GET to where they need to go? What's their staying power once IN combat? Sure, by paying this extra I'm sacrificing a good number of extra boyz, but I've found that taking eavy armour and painboyz makes the (still substantial) number of boyz I DO have far more resiliant - and in ways my opponent isn't anticipating. They're used to Orks dying by the handful...and I'm removing 1-3 models. Eavy armour is also an effective way to mitigate Mob Rule: the odd time I fail a test, and get bashin' 'eads or squabble, I'll generally roll a 2-4 for hits, 1-2 for wounds, and the eavy armour will make short work of that (and FNP can cover any that get through). I absolutely believe spending more for fewer but more resilient Orks is the better choice than cheaper, more but dainty Orks.
What are you running them in? I just did a draft list that I had to scrap because especially with dual CAD there was no way I was fitting in everything I wanted. I did 4 of each slot and ended up at something like 2400 points and that was without running 'Ard Boyz. I was looking to use a Bika Boss, Pain Boy on bike with 2 units of ~8 Warbikers, 2 units of Trukk Boyz, 2 units of MAN Missiles, 2 7-strong Tankbustas in Trukks, some Koptas, Warbuggies, a Warboss and Painboy legging it with some shoota Boyz, another 20-strong shoota Boyz, 2 Wagons and a couple units of Mek Gunz.
General_K wrote: This is basically what I've been doing for a while now (a few months) with a good deal of success (your dual CAD with painboyz in boyz units).
I've gotten into the habit of only taking my slugga/choppa boyz with eavy armour. I won't take them any other way. I've heard a lot of "the point of Orks is numbers...300-400 points is another 60-80 boyz, and thus 240-360 attacks!" And, well, yes, that's right. But how many of those boys will GET to where they need to go? What's their staying power once IN combat? Sure, by paying this extra I'm sacrificing a good number of extra boyz, but I've found that taking eavy armour and painboyz makes the (still substantial) number of boyz I DO have far more resiliant - and in ways my opponent isn't anticipating. They're used to Orks dying by the handful...and I'm removing 1-3 models. Eavy armour is also an effective way to mitigate Mob Rule: the odd time I fail a test, and get bashin' 'eads or squabble, I'll generally roll a 2-4 for hits, 1-2 for wounds, and the eavy armour will make short work of that (and FNP can cover any that get through). I absolutely believe spending more for fewer but more resilient Orks is the better choice than cheaper, more but dainty Orks.
What are you running them in? I just did a draft list that I had to scrap because especially with dual CAD there was no way I was fitting in everything I wanted. I did 4 of each slot and ended up at something like 2400 points and that was without running 'Ard Boyz. I was looking to use a Bika Boss, Pain Boy on bike with 2 units of ~8 Warbikers, 2 units of Trukk Boyz, 2 units of MAN Missiles, 2 7-strong Tankbustas in Trukks, some Koptas, Warbuggies, a Warboss and Painboy legging it with some shoota Boyz, another 20-strong shoota Boyz, 2 Wagons and a couple units of Mek Gunz.
oh god, you can't do all that in a low point game, no. I dont' have mek guns or wagons, myself, and don't have enough warbikers for something like that.
In addition to 4 painboyz and 4-6 units of boyz (with at least two being 20 strong), I run a Warboss w/ DLS and eavy armour (or mega armour if I'm feeling cheeky), and either 1 unit of 3 MaNz or 1 unit of 5-10 Nobz w/eavy armour and a few PKs. I take 7 lootas, 1-2 units of 3 deffkoptas. That's about it. Everything walks. I think it's usually around 2000-2400 points?
Well, it's not like I"m just eschewing vehicles. I just haven't had the money to buy them I've got a single trukk, and I just scratch built 2 battlewagons, though, so we'll see how that goes. (both my own gaming group and my local GW store will permit me to use these scratch builds).
But generally, as long as there's cover to be had, my footsloggers haven't really had that big a problem. I'm not getting turn 2 charges, sure - but I can dart between cover to play a long game that works just fine. I mean, with a 4" table, you've only got 24" between your units....I cut down half that distance in one turn between moving and running (well, almost half, on average)...so I can reliably get into combat by turn 3, and once I"m there, I'm good. Admittedly, though, it helps that in my meta, my necron player never moves...
But generally, as long as there's cover to be had, my footsloggers haven't really had that big a problem. I'm not getting turn 2 charges, sure - but I can dart between cover to play a long game that works just fine. I mean, with a 4" table, you've only got 24" between your units....I cut down half that distance in one turn between moving and running (well, almost half, on average)...so I can reliably get into combat by turn 3, and once I"m there, I'm good. Admittedly, though, it helps that in my meta, my necron player never moves...
I agree against super cheese matches vs Tau or Eldar it can fall on its face a bit, and it can struggle against slightly weaker cheese but thats the same for the rest of our builds. I often play 3-4 squads of 25-30 all with painboyz. It takes up a little over or under half your points kitted correctly (BP+PK) and it gives the opponent a ticking time bomb to defuse. Anything super mobile I use deffkoptas to tie in CC until a trukk of boyz/meganobz/horde of boyz arrive.
Add in 5 lobbas with 3 ammo runts (99pts). They've made their points back every game so far, I don't leave home without them (buy the plastic empire mortars second hand, you often find them pretty cheap).
I've found footslogging with 120 FnP boyz functions pretty well in all lists up to and including mild cheddar levels of power.
Moolet wrote: Add in 5 lobbas with 3 ammo runts (99pts). They've made their points back every game so far, I don't leave home without them (buy the plastic empire mortars second hand, you often find them pretty cheap).
Interesting, since I wasn't planning on shelling out $35 a pop for an 18-point unit. The one Lobba I have now is a converted Leman Russ part. I don't remember which variant uses the giant barrel, but it comes in the Punisher kit and rarely gets used... An IG player might have a couple lying around.
Moolet wrote: I've found footslogging with 120 FnP boyz functions pretty well in all lists up to and including mild cheddar levels of power.
How about Grotsnik? Is he usable in place of a Painboy and a Nob? I ask mainly because I have the model and can't seem to find too many different Painboy minis. I have the older resin one and I should probably shell out for the new plastic one, but aside from that are there any other poses? One of the cardinal sins of an Ork army, imo, would be to have 2 identical HQs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And for Warbikers I'm not sure which is the best way to run them; 2 units of 6-8 each or one massive blob.
I find blobs better, but smaller units (like 6) work fine.
Adding onto 'eavy armour or not, it's nice to not have to remove models to Bolters, but it's even better when you're not removing models by the dozen to Wyverns, SMS and other Ignore Cover garbage that I usually have to deal with. Downside is being more susceptible to Grav, but if you're firing your Grav-Cannons at my Boyz, then you're not firing at my Manz.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lord Corellia wrote: How about Grotsnik? Is he usable in place of a Painboy and a Nob? I ask mainly because I have the model and can't seem to find too many different Painboy minis. I have the older resin one and I should probably shell out for the new plastic one, but aside from that are there any other poses? One of the cardinal sins of an Ork army, imo, would be to have 2 identical HQs.
Grotsnik is amazing. I like to use him with non-Bullyboyz Manz to give them Fearless and Rampage. For larger units, I think a Painboy would do.
One upside of Grotsnik is that you can just take the 10pt Nob for challenges, without having to buy the 15pt Mek.
Grotsnik just makes a small group of man missles so much better. Rampage, fearless, fnp and another claw makes those model so much more of a threat. Rampage alone can add 50% more damage output. He just costs a bit to much.
Interesting, since I wasn't planning on shelling out $35 a pop for an 18-point unit. The one Lobba I have now is a converted Leman Russ part. I don't remember which variant uses the giant barrel, but it comes in the Punisher kit and rarely gets used... An IG player might have a couple lying around.
I've never had an opponent get weird about using slightly different models. Try out, 1 or a few. A was sold on them when I first fielded them and over the course of 3 turns killed 3 reapers (2 in one turn). Not bad for 18pts.
How about Grotsnik? Is he usable in place of a Painboy and a Nob?
I've not used him extensively but he performed ok when I did, not exceptionally. If you're rolling nob + painboy together into grotsnik then its an eggs into one basket case, something I avoid with orks. It does give fearless though which is nice but if I'm taking 4 painboyz and 4 mobs of boyz then I take 2 ork horde detachments giving me 6 of each slot to play with. That means I can easily add a warboss with eavy armour and PK or bigchoppa if you want to skimp on points. Gives the mob ld 9 and a bit more bite. I personally prefer this but I'm sure you will get some decent milage out of grotsnik.
I ask mainly because I have the model and can't seem to find too many different Painboy minis. I have the older resin one and I should probably shell out for the new plastic one, but aside from that are there any other poses? One of the cardinal sins of an Ork army, imo, would be to have 2 identical HQs.
I use the new plastic one, GW do 2 more models I think. I went with spellcrow and got their one and the painboy upgrade sprue converting a nob as another. For the fourth I use my brotehrs. He has converted 30 'nurgle orks' which look awesome. I use his nurgle PB with is a plaguebringer conversion but I'll probably grab one of the other GW models at some point.
I like to keep Manz missiles, trukk with ram and 3 barebones meganobz. For me they are a distraction, one that often actually does well though. If they can soak a turn of shooting and die, they've completed their purpose, never lost them all in one turn though (only played 5-6 games with them so far)
Another thing to note about Grotsnik is that he comes with 'eavy armour as standard, which is nothing to write home about, but also T5, which means he gets the FnP against Melta and the like (fantastic, has to be said).
I face Relic Whirlwind Scorpius' against every Marine opponent I face against, bar one, which was list-tailored Crimson Fists. Having a Painboy have a save against the S8 Ap3 Barrage Ignore Cover without relying on Look Out Sir is awesome.
So I'm about to (finally) finish up a squad of deffkotpas. Running three of them solo has done decent work, but they're not quite as tough as I'd like to be running them on their own, so I'm probably going to try running them in squads of five to avoid morale issues, at least for the first death. I'm aware I can plop an HQ on a bike with them, though that gets rid of their delicious 24'' turbo-boost. After some thinking, though, would it not be a bad idea to replace my squad of 9 bikers with a squad of 5 deffkoptas?
The deffkotpas are cheaper (I run them naked with TL rokkits), go faster, and have the same number of wounds as the 9 bikers (+1 for the nob). The deffkoptas ignore terrain and have a better weapon, at least in my opinion. They're also a smaller unit, which makes it easier to maneuver them while still staying effective. The bikers, on the other hand, character and BP, giving them a decent chance (2/3 chance if my math is correct) of not running from a failed morale check. They're also better in melee (though I've never had great success with my bikers in CC). Granted, I could take both, but if it comes down to one or the other, wouldn't deffkoptas be a slightly better option, regardless of their morale issues?
Then again, it could just be me- my bikers seem to be cursed. They always die to shooting in the first turn since they're huge targets, do horrid with their shooting, or get hunted down by better bike units. Honestly, the best work they've ever done was getting eaten by a pack of wulfen that put those furry feths in perfect range for my lootas to smash.
Personally I've tried a Big Mek on the relic warbike to join the 5 koptas, it worked well. He gives them a character, bosspole, Ld8, he still can turbo-boost 18" (instead of 12" for a normal bike), and having AP3 dakkablastas shots goes well with the rokkits. You could also do that with a warboss, but it gets more expensive. A painboy would be nice also but he can't have a bosspole, so. Personnally I would never run a squad of koptas without a character, and the big mek is the cheapest for the job.
The problem with the relic warbike is, iirc, that means I can't take DLS on my warboss. I mainly use DLS to give my boyz WS 5, which means I'm hitting most things on a 3- plus, the rerolls for attack on my warboss are nice.
Vitali Advenil wrote: The problem with the relic warbike is, iirc, that means I can't take DLS on my warboss. I mainly use DLS to give my boyz WS 5, which means I'm hitting most things on a 3- plus, the rerolls for attack on my warboss are nice.
Indeed, I think there's a lot of potential synergy for the Ork relics if we were able to take more than one IMO. It honestly looks like Eadwompa's Kill Choppa was made to be used in conjunction with DLS, since being able to reroll hits and wounds with it would make it worth considering over a PK. And given that we aren't allowed invulns. in CC for whatever reason, there's not much abuse available besides mega armour which many things ignore anyways.
The few other races that are limited to 1 of an army-wide armory is usually either 1) ALL really damn good with one or two baddies or 2) mostly weapons anyway so its by default only one each. Orks.... the bike is cool, the killchoppa is fun, the rest are just gimicky toys that CAN be useful. Problem is Da Lucky Stikk is just way WAY too powerful in comparison, and for some reason we cant put PKs or Relics on Painboyz either.
Honestly since the only wargear option the painboy has is a grot orderly (I think), it feels like he's literally only there for the FNP, since who gives a crap about 4+ poison when we're usually hitting on 4's in the charge anyway. It would be nice if he had some versatility like Big Meks or Warbosses.
well, to be fair on the charge he's S5 so against most targets he gets reroll to wounds thanks to poison rules in melee (since they made that greater than the toughness instead of greater or equal) but yeah he has nothing going for him to be an IC. He really should be the same thing as the Mekboyz, or given access to crap so we can actually make him do something. He can take a Bosspole i believe but who cares really lol...we cant even give him 'eavy armor...but he can take a bike for some reason?
The new painboy model even looks like he has a poisoned powerklaw. Where the hell is the rule for that? Powerklaw that rerolls to wound against anything. Only T8/T9 things in the game are GMC anyway so anti-poison ftl
Oh, wait, I misunderstood the poison rules. So if my painboy's strength is higher than the target's toughness, I get a reroll on to wound? gak, that'll be nice to bring to the table next game.
Yes. Its only in melee but then again just about all poison is melee anyway.
i rarely ever get anything from it but it is at least making him slightly more reliable with his 5 attacks on the charge (remember, he still has a CCW and a slugga with 3 base attacks) than a regular nob.
He still shouldnt be a damn IC as is. There are other races with ICs that dont get many options but it makes no sense that an ork boss guy doesnt have any toyz for killin'
Vineheart01 wrote: Yes. Its only in melee but then again just about all poison is melee anyway.
i rarely ever get anything from it but it is at least making him slightly more reliable with his 5 attacks on the charge (remember, he still has a CCW and a slugga with 3 base attacks) than a regular nob.
He still shouldnt be a damn IC as is. There are other races with ICs that dont get many options but it makes no sense that an ork boss guy doesnt have any toyz for killin'
Pretty much, I feel in general that they should have taken after forgeworld's dred mob since they pretty much have what we're asking with their Painboss, a painboy with Ld8, options for 'eavy armour, big choppas, and PK, the works. Furthermore, I feel that they should upscale some of the Ork HQ's a bit since there's a clear stat progression from boyz to Nobz. (extra wound, strength, initiative, attacks, oddly not leadership but that's another issue) To differentiate the Oddboyz who are leaders vs. those who are merely in support roles. So Mekboyz, Weirdboyz, and Painboyz should be like IG Commissars/Priests in being 0-5 per detachment, which are characters (not IC) that need to be attached to a unit prior to deployment. Painbosses, Big Meks and Warpheads become the next level, singular HQ choices with stats that represent the big 'uns of the Oddboyz, with 3 wounds each, T5 and Ld8 but otherwise the same stats. Buff up warbosses to have 4 wounds instead of 3 (he's a really big guy, should at least be on par with chapter masters) and I feel it shows the progression of Ork hierarchy much more viscerally given that "biggest and da best" is both ideologically and literally the way it works for them.
Lord Corellia wrote: So are 'Ard Boyz worth the extra points? Seems extremely unlikely to me. In most of my lists that's an extra 300-400 points just on the 'Ard Boyz upgrade. Seems an awful lot.
I'd say 'ard boyz definitely aren't worth it except in rare situations. The problem is most armies can kill orks with such ease that adding points to units is just a waste. Your best way to go is MSU. The goal is to keep the opponent wasting firepower overkilling units, and still have enough units left to threaten them.
That means no 'eavy armor on trukk boyz. No 'eavy armor on battlewagon boyz. From my point of view the best usage of eavy armor is walking blobs of shoota boyz.
Another good use of 'eavy armor is if you are beating someone consistently, you can always waste points on upgrades to make your army less effective so they can compete.
The argument above about 'eavy armor being useful because it adds survivability in cc isn't going to generally work out for 2 reasons.
1) The game is usually only 5 turns long. That means you don't have a long time to spend in combat.
2) Unless you meta is highly uncompetitive, units are going to be either incredibly deadly in CC (Thunderwolves, Wraiths), or no match for orks at all in CC (Space Marines). So, there just aren't very many situations where the added survivability would make the difference. On the other hand, having 60% more boyz would usually make a difference in most situations.
I can't say that I completely agree with you Tag8833, but if that works for you, go for it. I've gone with the rule of thumb that my trukk boyz get 'ard armor and my Shoota boyz get more shoota boyz. Usually somewhere between 20-30 boyz with shootas. Personally, I would think that if you are going to go with the whole MSU, why not spend some points on buffing the ork boyz. Yes have more units means there is something else to shoot at, but lets face, everything the orks have is just a distraction from the boyz units.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yes. Its only in melee but then again just about all poison is melee anyway.
i rarely ever get anything from it but it is at least making him slightly more reliable with his 5 attacks on the charge (remember, he still has a CCW and a slugga with 3 base attacks) than a regular nob.
He still shouldnt be a damn IC as is. There are other races with ICs that dont get many options but it makes no sense that an ork boss guy doesnt have any toyz for killin'
Pain Boys don't have a Slugga for the 2 CCW rule because...reasons?
The issue is cost, and target priority. If it cost 2 ppm instead of 4 it might make sense. At 4 PPM aka 66% of another boy, it just doesn't work that well, because it isn't 66% more effective. Its about 50% more survivable (tons of AP4 in the game), 0% faster, and 0% more killy.
For MSU it is a no brainer. I can turn 2 trukks full of boyz into 3 just by not taking a costly upgrades.
Yeah you get another unit out of the deal, but what happens when you go second and you lose all your trukks on turn 1. Now you got a bunch of 6+ dudes out on foot. Anything that shootas at them will kill them unlease you are running from cover to cover.
Some of the math we try to apply to this game seems out of focus to me sometimes. I am almost always on the 'just buy another X' bandwagon, but i do think the opposite thinkingneeds more credit;
If you roll a 4+ save. You have saved a 10 point model, who now has an oppurtunity to save himself again. Everytime you make that save, you have effectively bought yourself another 10 point model.
If ten Hard Boyz take 10 wounds and you save five, the fourty points spent on the squad fir the armor, saved fifty points in models. The five that died, only cost you twenty points more then just an ork standing there. Those fifty points will now have a chance to roll more saves later, perhaps paying off even more.
I definitely prefer putting 'eavy armor on my sluggas if I can afford it, but it's not usually necessary. I do that because they're going to be taking a lot more of a beating getting into combat, even if I put them in a battlewagon. I don't even bother with trukkboyz.
Shootas I usually leave without, as they're much less of a priority to my opponents and they're not taking as many hits. Plus, they're just not as valuable to me.
I never use eavy armor. I prefer more boyz, but I rarely ever run trukk boyz. Only time I have boyz on the field is when I give them shootas and sit them on objectives for when I dont feel like using gretchin.
'eavy armor helps a ton in melee since AP4 or better isnt literally everywhere but since its soooooo common in shooting, theres no point.
One could argue it helps against ignore cover, since except heavy or better flamers or a few choice ignore cover shots, most ignore covers are AP5 or worse except that one model in an army type gun or Tau shenanigans. But our blobs are so big its really hard to actually utilize cover anyway, theyre better off hoofing it the full 6" + D6 around terrain rather than 2D6 through terrain (counting running) and taking the wounds. Least for me that seems to be better.
Trukkboyz kinda demand 'eavy armor. Trukk go boom, i guarantee half if not more of those boyz just went with it. 'Eavy armor drastically reduces those deaths, and being in a vehicle shields them against the AP4 spam for awhile too....well kinda lol yaknow trukk durability.
I would say the same for wagons but every time i tried that, it got too spendy. Ended up as 2 units with 'eavy armor in a BW and basically nothing else, or 3 units in a BW. BWs are a lot less likely to pop before they unload, so its not AS critically important.
Vineheart01 wrote: Trukkboyz kinda demand 'eavy armor. Trukk go boom, i guarantee half if not more of those boyz just went with it. 'Eavy armor drastically reduces those deaths, and being in a vehicle shields them against the AP4 spam for awhile too....well kinda lol yaknow trukk durability.
When a trukk explodes it has delivered the boyz where they need to be. The casualties from a Trukk Explosion might as well be part of the cost of the trukk. The boyz don't matter all that much anyways. They are just a delivery system for the claw. You don't need 10 boyz to survive getting out of a Trukk. You just need 4-5.
Beyond that, look at the numbers. Trukks cause wounds to 'ard boyz just like normal boyz. If you've got 10 Boyz in the Trukk, statistically it will cause 4 wounds.
With Normal boyz that is 4 * 5/6 = 3.33 unsaved wounds. At 6 ppm that is 20 points.
With Ard boyz that is 4 * 1/2 = 2 unsaved wounds. At 10 ppm that is 20 points.
The added survivability is completely offset by the higher price per ork. The same is true for Close combat against something without an AP. On the other hand 'ard boyz have fewer attacks per point than normal boyz.
Furthermore, by trading 2 Trukks full of 'ard boyz for 3 trukks full of normal boys you dramatically increase the chance of a trukk delivering its full payload.
I prefer just to put them in battlewagons and drastically reduce the chance of there being exploded boyz. I'm looking to run 2 wagons with 20 boyz. The argument is usually that the BWs are more expensive, but per model, it's not that different.
I run BWs at 120 points (110 base, 5 for ram, 5 for BS)
Stuff 20 boyz in there, that's 120 points. Throw in 40 more points for the PK, nob, BP upgrades. Total for one BW with boyz + PK nob is 280 points. Run two BWs and that's 560 points total. Overall, for delivering 40 models, that's a total cost of 14 PPM. A bit pricey, but the BW has much better survivability than a trukk.
Now we can try the same with trukks.
Stuff 10 boyz in a trukk, that's 60 points. Again, toss in the 40 points per nob with PK, and then 35 for the trukk with ram. Total, that's 135. If we want 40 boyz, we'll deploy 4 trukks. That brings the total points to 540. That's a total cost of 13.5 PPM.
So, bringing the same number of orks, trukk boyz only save .5 points per model. However, with the trukks, you're a lot more likely to lose boyz due to explosions, and they can't soak up nearly the same amount of firepower as a BW.
Now, granted, the trukks do bring twice as many PKs to the table. However, I find a squad of 10 boyz with one PK nob extremely fragile. With 20 boyz acting as a meat shield, my PK has a much higher chance of getting into CC, and unless he's challenged out, he has a much better chance of actually getting to swing. With only 10 models, they get wiped off the board extremely easy. Having more PKs sounds good, but it's a waste if they're shot off the board before they can do anything. With two squads of twenty, the enemy has to chew through around 20 orks to get rid of one PK. With four squads of ten, twenty orks will, at best, kill two PK nobs. Plus, I find 10 orks in CC, even with a PK, aren't strong enough to do much. Against pretty much any meq squad they're going to struggle, and they sure as hell won't take down any actual CC squads.
Of course, you don't need to take four trukks. Three trukks does sound a lot better, but again, in my experience and definitely in my Space Wolf heavy meta, 10 boyz just isn't enough to get the job done- if the 10 boyz even get into CC after their trukk explodes. That's why pretty much the only thing I'm gonna put in a trukk is meganobz for a MANz missile.
As an ork player, I highly advise 'eavy armor for trukk boyz. To mitigate costs a little, I put in a min squad of 10 (9 boyz, 1 nob with a bosspole and powerklaw) in a trukk with a ram. Comes out to 175pts. Lately, I've been trying out a kombi-schorcha on the boss nob. It's 10 more points, but it's a scorcha! Anything that insta-hits is pure gold for orks. Saving 20pts from the two other 'ard boyz may seem like not that much, but it helps pay for extra toys. And it gives you enough room to squeeze a DLS warboss in there And, if I'm perfectly honest, when combat rolls around, and I'm about to swing with the klaw I'm thinking "and now for the attacks that actually matter."
Back to 'eavy armor: the armor helps a lot when it comes to trukk explosions (and believe me, there will be trukk explosions) and mob rule rolls. My biggest reason for being pro armor, is that we're orks for crying out loud! We always go last unless we're beating up necrons. The 4+ is great to help make sure your boyz actually get to hit back. I usually don't run large blobs anymore, as touneys around here are timed, but I used to always bring a 29 boy blob of sluggas, a PK nob and a painboy with the BP. It had some great moments of eating ridiculous amounts of firepower and standing there for more. This single unit also cost me almost 400 points, so nowadays I'd rather save the points for more specialized guys, and keep my boyz units super mobile with the trukks. And don't forget, if your running a CAD, those fast trukks are Objective Secured! And they can tank shock guys off objectives too, if you gave them rams!
So is 'eavy armor worth it? Well, if you want to put guys in trukks, I consider it mandatory. If you are going for a blob, and have the points to spend, put it on them. But you should definitely give that blob a painboy too. Always give your blobs painboys.
The only time I ever consider putting 'eavy Armor on a unit of Trukk boyz is if I'm trying to go easy on someone who is struggling to win games, and it usually works pretty well for that.
It is such a dramatic decrease in offensive power for such a marginal increase in defensive power.
When the new codex dropped, I wanted to put 'eavy armor on all of my trukk boyz because of mob rule, and the nature of trukks as a deathtrap. I tried so hard to make it work. It is just such a sub-optimal build for Orks. It is like putting Wrecking Balls on Trukks. It might look good on paper, and 1 in 10 games it might do some work, but in most games you are just flushing points down the toilet.
Right now in 40K, very few armies struggle to kill a unit of Orks. The size of the unit doesn't make that large of a difference. I played an 1850 tourney game the other day when a Tau opponent shot 170+ shots that were all S5+ on turn 2. They put 30+ wounds on a unit of 5 Tankbustas. That is how we win games. We can't hope to survive by making saves that will always be worse than Tau, Eldar, Necrons, Marines, and every other army. We have to find ways to make it to CC where we can compete. The way to do that is more units, not more expensive ones.
If you are already running a sub-optimal list like blobs of boyz walking, then 'eavy armor can yield some bang for your buck, because you lose the nearest boyz to the enemy when you shoot at them, so 'eavy armor can become something like a mobility buff. Or, if you are running a unit of overcosted nobs, 'eavy armor can help you to protect the investment. Another trick is to take a unit of boyz, and put them in the foward most vehicle of a vehicle squadron with something more valuable in trailing vehicles (Tankbustas, Flash Gitz). You know those boyz probably are never going to be delivered to the enemy in their transport, so you can spend some points on 'eavy armor on them to keep their threat profile high enough to be useful to the game.
But in a Trukk, in a game you are trying to win, it might make you feel better, but it doesn't get you closer to winning the game.
if the trukk pops turn1 because you didnt go first, the trukk didnt deliver the boyz. In fact, by killing the trukk the opponent took out a unit of boyz without even trying because now that 3-5 boyz have to hoof it across the board with no armor.
Thats the problem. If the trukk moves at all usually its not a problem if it blows up.
I guess if we're talking about trukk boys I'd ask, how many trukk boys mobs do most of you use in your lists? and do you min/max the other units like tank bustas and burna boys?
And would it make enough of a difference to use mobs of 12 over mobs of 10 boys in trukks?
I've tried min/max myself but I change my list every game because I get to play so little once a month at best.
I typically use two units of trukk boyz in my lists for my CAD requirement. Honestly, there is not much of a noticeable difference between 12 and 10 man units. The extra points you save can also help buy that power klaw, which will certainly make a difference
I have 15 trukks and have so far been too lazy to divide them out for troops and elites. I guess I'd better get too it.
For elites like burna boys and tank bustas, I know I'm likely the only one around who likes burna boys, what's been more reliable lots of small mobs? or larger? I'm meaning when packed in trukks. I'm thinking to try a list full of small squads spread over several cad. Anyone have any luck with 5 lootas in a trukk? I was thinking to do that just to push them up a weak side of the board or up the middle to work some clean up when the boys get stranded during an enemy retreat. I had the fish heads do that to me and was cough with out the needed ranged attacks.
I usually run between 5 and 7 trukks in my 1850 lists. I rarely use less than 4. Generally it is about 2-3 units of Boyz + PK Nob, and 3-4 units of 5 tankbustas, and 0-1 units of MANZ.
I often reserve my trukks, and try to outflank them via Master of Ambush. It is rare that I deploy any trukks in LOS if my opponent has 1st turn. Only if they don't have much shooting, or I have a Void Shield Generator (and they will have trouble popping the void shields).
I also usually have other Transports. Either Battlewagons, Gunwagons, or a Stompa. And I always have a unit of Lobbas which allows me to null deploy, because very few armies can kill a unit of lobbas in shooting.
When playing fluffier games it isn't uncommon for me to run 6 trukks full of boyz + a trukk of burnas, Manz, or Lootas (Gretchin ride the trukk). It also isn't uncommon for me to run just 1 manz missile and walk the rest of my army in fluffier games.
I put a list together today but I'm not sure I like it. I managed to use all 10 Auxiliary slots at 2500 points. Which leads me to wonder about my list, 1 Ork horde 1 pain boy and 10 aux choices. I am only now looking at storm boys again and the whole list is built around min sized mobs. I'm considering moving some of the aux choices out to a cad as there's no benefit for, say Mek guns, to eat an Aux slot where a min sized storm boys mob would gain the WAAAGH turn one. or would they gain it from the cad as well.? I'm not overly fond of the WAAAAGH Band big formation yet. I do like the idea of shoving 4 or 5 mobs of Storm Boys in the enemies face turn one. Maybe even being in combat before they can react.
My list is based around everything going very fast except for a grot mob and some Mek guns, but it still feels to me to be boys before toys. the warboss has a finking cap to move the mek guns and their pain boy into "good position". Also trying solo Deffkoptas as people seem to favor that. It's just an odd thing to force myself not to use things I would normally like.
I'm wondering if it'll be like cutting the dead weight?
oldzoggy wrote: I still kinda like CANS is there any way to get them faster at the other side of the table, by giving them scout or something just as helpfull ?
They wouldn't be on the board for the first turn or two, but you could Outflank them (with Acute Senses) by using the Mogrok's Bossboyz formation. There's no way I can think of to give them Scout or Infiltrate though.
Yeah I know of those options and they are all sucky. even the mek formation only gives you 1d3 units.
Kinda hoped for a secret trick with some sort of warlord trait I didn't know of.
The only other thing I know of that kinda works is the starter set formation. Since they will all be able to deepstrike. But the tax is huge and the one unit of kans has to be kitted out in a crazy way.
hes referring to the last year's Grukk formation. That has kans and they deepstrike. Problem is they are fixated on their wargear and numbers, and 3 isnt enough to do much especially when they force you to take 1 of each weapon in the same damn unit. All 3 guns want different targets, so something is either wasting points via overkill or not doing jack squat.
Kans would be better with 'ere we go rules as well that way they could move run and charge each turn with waaagh every turn however they are grots and can't get that rule either. They honestly just need to be much cheaper since they are the equivalent of a t6 2w model without an armour save.
gungo wrote: Kans would be better with 'ere we go rules as well that way they could move run and charge each turn with waaagh every turn however they are grots and can't get that rule either. They honestly just need to be much cheaper since they are the equivalent of a t6 2w model without an armour save.
Give them a 5+ invuln similar to that of Grot Tanks and they might be ok. As it currently stands vehicles (especially walkers) tend to die too quickly or become useless due to the vehicle damage table. Honestly Kans are better off shooting and then charging in to clean up the remainder units. Deff Dreads are the ones that need Ere We Go and/or some sort of super run to waddle across the battlefield faster.
I think the dreddmob (while trash for being a walker formation) is still the best way to have fast killa kanz. Ere we go for all the walkers is reAly a great bonus...the only problem is the tax of 2 gmorkanauts....but this can prove to be useful if kitted with kff.
gungo wrote: Deff dreads have ere we go. 5+ would be good on kans but honestly don't think it fits them. I rather just see them priced around 35-40pts each.
Deff dreads and bigger walkers definitely need the 5+ invul.
Deff dredds do not ha ere'we'go. Only time they have it is if part of that terrible dredd mob formations.
Dredds need ere'we'go and be able to be taken in sqaudrons, like everything else can now it seems in newer codex's.
oldzoggy wrote: I still kinda like CANS is there any way to get them faster at the other side of the table, by giving them scout or something just as helpfull ?
If you are bummed out about the usefulness 9f killa kanz then you can get your conversion kap on and work to use this killa kanz as counts as.
First you can redo those kanz in jumping poses, make some huge rokkit packs and stick them on the back and then call them deffkoptas with buzzsaws, or do the same thing but cut off the klaw and add an extra rokkit or bigshoota arm and have it be a normal deffkopta.
That or you can do mekgunz from kanz. Cut off the base, create some extra legs or braces to help the model stand, and then give them a big mek gun. Here are a few examples of my own...
Nice converting, geargutz - the kanz kit is so full of conversion potential. I've also seen decent 'warboss in mega armour' models made from kanz bits and a few Nobz bits.
A shame that GW don't want to give us decent rules so we'll buy more models :(
Clang wrote: Nice converting, geargutz - the kanz kit is so full of conversion potential. I've also seen decent 'warboss in mega armour' models made from kanz bits and a few Nobz bits.
A shame that GW don't want to give us decent rules so we'll buy more models :(
That is exactly how I feel about dreads. They're my favorite model in the codex, but they're just soooooo clunky that I can't think of a good reason to take them. If I want lots of PK attacks I just shoot a MANz missile, which is more expensive but more likely to get into the fray. With a dread, I'm just too worried about it being immobilized or exploded before it can even think about charging. Since its shooting is a joke, it really does need some option to get into CC faster.
gungo wrote: Deff dreads have ere we go. 5+ would be good on kans but honestly don't think it fits them. I rather just see them priced around 35-40pts each.
Deff dreads and bigger walkers definitely need the 5+ invul.
Deff dredds do not ha ere'we'go. Only time they have it is if part of that terrible dredd mob formations.
Dredds need ere'we'go and be able to be taken in sqaudrons, like everything else can now it seems in newer codex's.
Whaaa the dread mob formation is pretty good and like the only way to field a decent walker list.
gungo wrote: Deff dreads have ere we go. 5+ would be good on kans but honestly don't think it fits them. I rather just see them priced around 35-40pts each.
Deff dreads and bigger walkers definitely need the 5+ invul.
Deff dredds do not ha ere'we'go. Only time they have it is if part of that terrible dredd mob formations.
Dredds need ere'we'go and be able to be taken in sqaudrons, like everything else can now it seems in newer codex's.
Whaaa the dread mob formation is pretty good and like the only way to field a decent walker list.
The Forge World Dread Mob is good for fielding walkers (can spam a lot of deff dreads this way plus can bring Kanz without competing for force org slots.), the one in the Ghazz supplement is hot garbage because your forced to take 2 of the dorkanauts and can only bring 3 deff dreads. The only benefits the formation gives is ere we go and extra hammer of wrath hits which won't make a difference if you never make it to close combat.
I like the fw walker list however it's a non existent book with a internet hidden outdated 6th Ed update PDF with half the models not even available anymore And even half the unique fw units are junk (I do like the mega dread). The best thing about that list is the ITC point nerfed buzzgrob and the ever useful zhardsnark.
Beyond that I rather have the err we go on my walkers on the ghaz dread mob list with another formation that gives your warlord waagh every turn. This means your walkers can move run and charge every turn including the first, which actually helps your walkers get into combat by the second turn.
Take the cost of a boy, add Eavy Armor, and 1/12th the cost of a Trukk with RR and you're already at 13 ppm. For just 5 PPM more you get an awesome Twin Linked Str 5 AP 5 gun, improved Toughness, 4+ Jink, 12" Move, and no distance penalty when charging through terrain.
As long as Bikers are so cheap, I can't justify CAD Trukk Boyz.
For the Orcurrion an argument can be made but still . . .
I had some interesting concept on Mek gunz. Why not put a pain boy with them? Suddenly you have a T7 3+ armor save with FNP, and leadership 8. I'd still put some sort of fortification with them. the Agis line with an ammo dump should work nicely.
I'm going to try the Gorkanaut Krussa Krew in my next list.
Planning to put a Big Mek on a bike with the MFF to protect them. See how that goes. But should I put burna boys meked out in them?
I wish they didn't cost so many points.
Glitcha wrote: I had some interesting concept on Mek gunz. Why not put a pain boy with them? Suddenly you have a T7 3+ armor save with FNP, and leadership 8. I'd still put some sort of fortification with them. the Agis line with an ammo dump should work nicely.
I did that when the codex dropped and was informed during a tournament that FNP works per model so most models are the grots and only would get FNP on Str 3 wounds or less.
So now I run max extra grots as ablative wounds which is much cheaper and doesn't cost a valuable HQ.
I run the units out in the open and either they last all game or are assaulted and die. 25 T7 models is a bear for most forces to shoot. They need to take 7 casualties before taking a Ld test. I will throw in a HQ regular Mek if I have the points for Ld7.
I don't see how that's really a problem. as long as a big gun is the closest model it has to take wounds and would get the FNP.
Or were you putting you grots in front of your guns?
warhead01 wrote: I don't see how that's really a problem. as long as a big gun is the closest model it has to take wounds and would get the FNP.
Or were you putting you grots in front of your guns?
The grots in front of Gunz but I'd much rather lose grots than a chance of losing a gun.
warhead01 wrote: I don't see how that's really a problem. as long as a big gun is the closest model it has to take wounds and would get the FNP.
Or were you putting you grots in front of your guns?
The grots in front of Gunz but I'd much rather lose grots than a chance of losing a gun.
This may work for you but if i'm not mistaken you do need two grots per gun in order to operate the artillery.
Nope, one grot per gun to fire or move. It was 4th or 5th edition when you needed two models to MOVE an artillery piece which used to be a armor 10 vehicle.
The extra wounds are the main reason to take the grots. They're T7 when being shot at because the artillery rules are funny. Though I'd recommend putting a standard mek with them to give them slightly better leadership.
Vitali Advenil wrote: The extra wounds are the main reason to take the grots. They're T7 when being shot at because the artillery rules are funny. Though I'd recommend putting a standard mek with them to give them slightly better leadership.
going from a 5 to a 7 is a giant leap. And even a plain mek can swing back if the unit gets charged, possibly stalling the sweep long enough for help to arrive.
If I roll on the Strategic table and get Master of Ambush (Infiltrate), is there anything preventing me from infiltrating a unit of Mek Gunz? Seems like a good idea to me, getting my KMK's up the field so they can start shooting on turn 1.
Ratius wrote: MoAs restriction is for vehicles only iirc, so should work
Cool. Hopefully they last long enough to earn their points back.
Next game is against Necrons, and I think he's bringing a Doomsday Ark and a C'tan Shard. I hope I have enough high Str low AP to bring them down. (Go, Tankbustas, go!)
Ratius wrote: MoAs restriction is for vehicles only iirc, so should work
Cool. Hopefully they last long enough to earn their points back.
Next game is against Necrons, and I think he's bringing a Doomsday Ark and a C'tan Shard. I hope I have enough high Str low AP to bring them down. (Go, Tankbustas, go!)
i cant find if someone already answered this, but does the reprint of waaaagh ghazghkull still have the great waaagh detachment? (the one where you can bring 5 elite slots and lets you potentialy deepstrike forces).
despite the poor command benefits it has, it does have a ton of elite slots (more min squads of tankbustas) and is a way to bring the orkimedes kustom gubbinz.
Sadly a bunch of fw models are on last chance to buy for Orks.
I'm hoping this means new ork IA is coming soon.
My hope is squiggoths, warbuggies/traks, boar boyz, big traks, big Mek stompas and dreads, and whatever ork tank they decide to keep get updated with newer better 7th Ed rules.
Ratius wrote: MoAs restriction is for vehicles only iirc, so should work
Cool. Hopefully they last long enough to earn their points back.
Next game is against Necrons, and I think he's bringing a Doomsday Ark and a C'tan Shard. I hope I have enough high Str low AP to bring them down. (Go, Tankbustas, go!)
IF you get MoA. Good luck!
Unfortunately I did not get MoA... I took the Da Finkin' Kap, rolled both my Warlord traits on the Strategic table, and I was even running a CAD so I could reroll... but no. Ended up with the traits for +1 to Seize the Initiative and Move through Cover.
It was a tough fight, but I'm proud to say that I pulled off a win versus Necrons. (I know it's April 1st and all, but it's true!). Mini Batrep if folks want to read it:
Spoiler:
We played The Relic, 1500 points. He brought a Necron Decurion (Warriors, Destroyers, Tomb Blades, Flayed Ones), a Doomsday Ark, and a C'tan Shard. I brought a CAD composed of a MAWB with Da Finkin' Kap, a MAWB with DLS, 3 x Trukk Boyz, a Battlewagon full of Boyz, 2x Tankbusta units, 3 solo Deff Koptas, a unit of KMK with extra crew, and a unit of Kommandos with Snikrot. MAWB's went in the Battlewagon and 1 Trukk. I won the roll off, but he seized the initiative. The KMK took a Str10 pie plate from the Doomsday Ark on T1, then failed their Ld check and ran off the board. Bottom of T1 I moved my Trukks up 24", with the Battlewagon following. Turn 2, I lost all but 1 Trukk due to good shooting from the Heavy Destroyers, and sadly the Tankbustas ended up footslogging the rest of the game. Amazingly none of my Trukks exploded. My Deffkoptas were dispached by Destroyers and Warriors. The C'tan rolled Antimatter Meteor on T2 and dropped it on my Battlewagon, but failed to roll high enough to damage it (it 'bounced off'! ). Two units of Boys from the wrecked Trukks fanned out in a semi-circle around the Relic and secured it. I tried to maximize model spacing to mitigate the pie plates, while staying out of range of the Warriors' 24" shots. Bottom of T2, I moved my remaining Trukk with the MAWB Warlord and Boyz up on the right side of the board, towards the Doomsday Ark, and inched my Battlewagon closer to the Relic in the middle, and ran my Tankbustas. I unloaded the Battlewagon and launched my MAWB with DLS, BC Nob and 17 Boyz at a unit of Destroyers to wreck face. I caused 5 wounds to the Destroyers, they lost the assault, and failed their Ld check! I couldn't sweep because of SnP, so the 1 remaining Destroyer fled 3d6. I also assaulted a unit of Tomb Blades that got too close to the Relic with a unit of Boyz and PK Nob, tying them up. Turn 3, the C'tan rolled Sky of Falling Stars and nearly wiped out the unit of Boyz controlling the Relic, reducing them to just 2 Boyz and a Nob. They passed their Morale check and held on! The MAWB w/ DLS and his Boyz took a Str10 pie plate from the Doomsday Ark, and were finished off by Warriors. The Flayed Ones joined the ongoing assault with the Boyz and Tomb Blades, making quick work of the Boyz. Bottom of T3, I outflanked the Kommandos and brought them in behind a building, hiding from the Doomsday Ark and nearby Necron Warriors. I loaded that tiny unit of 2 Boyz and a Nob holding the Relic into my Battlewagon for shelter. The footslogging Tankbustas managed a few wounds on some Necron troops with their rokkits but were much too far away to shoot the Doomsday Ark, let alone assault it. My Warlord MAWB ended up assaulting the Doomsday Ark and punched it until it exploded. The Warboss shrugged off the explosion, but hilariously a few nearby Necron Warriors and a Destroyer failed their armor and RP saves and took wounds. T4, the C'tan rolled poorly and failed to damage the Battlewagon. The Necrons attempted to take down my Battlewagon, but only managed to strip off 1 hull point. My Warlord's unit took heavy fire and lost all but 1 Boy, the MAWB himself only taking 1 wound. (I like to imagine him laughing at their poor shooting, 'hey, that tickles, stop it!' ). He also passed his Morale check with a smug grin on his face. Bottom of T4, the Kommandos assaulted a unit of Necron Warriors to tie them up. The Battlewagon motored backwards away from the advancing Necron Warriors, Heavy Destroyers, and Tomb Blades, with the Relic on board. We called the game there on account of time (~4.5 hours). It was a tough, messy battle, and I lost well over 75% of my forces, but I held the Relic until the end of the game and got Linebreaker. Woo!
gungo wrote: Sadly a bunch of fw models are on last chance to buy for Orks.
I'm hoping this means new ork IA is coming soon.
My hope is squiggoths, warbuggies/traks, boar boyz, big traks, big Mek stompas and dreads, and whatever ork tank they decide to keep get updated with newer better 7th Ed rules.
orks make them no money.
everything that has good rules for forgeworld is simply scratch built by ork players.
the reason they are moving on to tau and admech for the next book is because those are not generally something one scratch builds. So they can actually make money off of those things.
they are on to us. I would not be suprised if orks did not get anything new from forgeworld for years and years.
If the MorkaGorkanaught was a Super Heavy Assault Vehicle they'd fly off the shelves . . . But I do agree with the point about Forgeworld Ork models. And then of course not everyone allows Forgeworld.
gungo wrote: Sadly a bunch of fw models are on last chance to buy for Orks.
I'm hoping this means new ork IA is coming soon.
My hope is squiggoths, warbuggies/traks, boar boyz, big traks, big Mek stompas and dreads, and whatever ork tank they decide to keep get updated with newer better 7th Ed rules.
orks make them no money.
everything that has good rules for forgeworld is simply scratch built by ork players.
the reason they are moving on to tau and admech for the next book is because those are not generally something one scratch builds. So they can actually make money off of those things.
they are on to us. I would not be suprised if orks did not get anything new from forgeworld for years and years.
Models that are good sell like crazy.
Most ork players have the biker boss with pk (zhardsnark) model a lot of players have the 3 nob bikers. Especially when nob bikers were popular. Beyond that what model does fw make that's any good? Mega dread is decent but stuck to fw only list that's outdated and full of bad units. The big Mek stompa is popular now with the ITC ruling but is ridiculously priced considering you still have to buy the stompa and the add on pieces that are the epitomy of easy to do scratch build or most people allow the basic stompa to count as a big Mek stompa. The gargantuan squiggoth is a cool looking model it was decent but recent rulings just made it worse and it cost a ridiculous amount but people still bought it. Beyond that all the ork tanks are overcosted expensive and serve little purpose. The one popular vehicle for Orks is the gun wagon and forgeworld doesn't make it anymore and even still I see people using the fw big trakk as a count as.
I personally have the warboss w pk on bike, 3 nobs on bike and a fw trukk with trakks. There is nothing else that's useful. Maybe the kommando upgrade kit but the current GW kommandos are resin and due for an upgrade soon and I'd only get the fw ones if I spammed kommandos and wanted them to look different
I've never bought FW and I never really plan to, largely because of reasons stated. Why buy such expensive models when I can scratchbuild them? It's honestly the more orky thing to do. It makes the army more personal.
I'm not a huge fan of typical scratch building using Home Depot supplies. They never look quite right and look like they don't fit in. At the same time I don't like my units to all look identical. So I tend to buy, GW bits, fw bits, spellcrow ork bits, kromlech ork bits, etched brass, etc. I mix up pieces so that each ork model is unique. It's not really scratch building but it follows a very Orky look. The only reason I bought the fw trukk with trakks is because I made two ork trukks used different bits on back and switched driver and shooter sides but I wanted a the third trukk to look different. I can do the same with another fw half trakk trukk but I really run out of options after that.
The whole "don't get knew stuff because players scratch build everything" is getting old. I know it's a completely logical point, but it just seems like another way of saying "they don't get good stuff because of the fault of the players". It's flawed thinking, don't shift the blame from gw or fw.
i think the best way to make orks competitive would be to give them deploy from the midline, the biggest issue is that they put in the lions share of their table work in CC and even their bikes struggle to get there. this would mean a lot less table to cover. and give the game a legitimate cc threat again. you could build cc threat orks and scare other armies to out of there collective underwear you would probably see a major shift in army design. fortifications could come back, youd see CC units maybe being used for cc again, youd see a lot more use of troop transports as a way of protecting a unit and not just a means to an end for getting people to objectives and favourable board positions. and ud see less shooting gimmicks in general.
it would even offset the awful mob rule a fair bit
could you imagine getting waaagh'd turn 1 and having half your army locked up on turn 1, lets see those ponsy pointy ears wiggle there way out of being unable to maneuver at all
ionusx wrote: i think the best way to make orks competitive would be to give them deploy from the midline, the biggest issue is that they put in the lions share of their table work in CC and even their bikes struggle to get there. this would mean a lot less table to cover. and give the game a legitimate cc threat again. you could build cc threat orks and scare other armies to out of there collective underwear you would probably see a major shift in army design. fortifications could come back, youd see CC units maybe being used for cc again, youd see a lot more use of troop transports as a way of protecting a unit and not just a means to an end for getting people to objectives and favourable board positions. and ud see less shooting gimmicks in general.
it would even offset the awful mob rule a fair bit
could you imagine getting waaagh'd turn 1 and having half your army locked up on turn 1, lets see those ponsy pointy ears wiggle there way out of being unable to maneuver at all
And then everyone plays White Scars and just uses hit and run to run away and take all your objectives
ionusx wrote: i think the best way to make orks competitive would be to give them deploy from the midline, the biggest issue is that they put in the lions share of their table work in CC and even their bikes struggle to get there. this would mean a lot less table to cover. and give the game a legitimate cc threat again. you could build cc threat orks and scare other armies to out of there collective underwear you would probably see a major shift in army design. fortifications could come back, youd see CC units maybe being used for cc again, youd see a lot more use of troop transports as a way of protecting a unit and not just a means to an end for getting people to objectives and favourable board positions. and ud see less shooting gimmicks in general.
it would even offset the awful mob rule a fair bit
could you imagine getting waaagh'd turn 1 and having half your army locked up on turn 1, lets see those ponsy pointy ears wiggle there way out of being unable to maneuver at all
Competitve close combat armies now a days are either deepstriking and assaulting turn 1, running across the board and engaging in combat turn 1 (Hello! Wulfen), or ridiculously durable such as wolf star.
Orks need trukks that don't explode for potential turn 1 assaults if they can get their trukks across the board which might require some type of turbo boost red one go faster type effect.
Also cybork upgrade at worst make it +1fnp. This will fix a lot of stacking issues cybork has.
And some type of invul save upgrade for dreads (not KFF they need something in combat as well)
I'd also like to see the big Mek KFF turn into a painboy type effect where it's unit wide but not AoE. A 5+ vs shooting would help Orks make it across the board into combat.
Mechanized orks are fine. Not top tier competition like wraith eldar, FMC tyranids, or centstars but fine enough.
I feel like footslogging orks should get something similar to Renegade's Master of the Horde rule, where if a unit of 15+ gets wiped, an identical one gets placed in ongoing reserve.
I've found that the painmob can be incredibly good, but the rule is actually best for countering your units getting charged. Took a double painmob and CAD list to my last tourney and tied for 3rd. Every game I had, I got to use the "pile on the pain!" ability to clear out a combat and move to assault another one that same turn. Very good for making sure your guys don't get tied up. Now I should point out that my FLGS has ruled it so that any ICs that join a unit from the painmob get to benefit from it's "pile on the pain" rule. I know everyone is bummed about the "tax" of the deff dread, so I was thinking about using a rarely thought of formation: Morgrok's Bossboyz.
The kind of list I would run would be something like this as a 1500 point list, season equipment to taste, of course:
Painmob 1: 575pts
Painboy: warbike, 75pts
Boyz: 9 boyz, 1 boss nob: Power Klaw. Trukk: Reinforced ram. 130pts
Nobz: 4 Nob Bikers: 2 with big choppas, 1 with power klaw, 1 with power klaw and waaagh banner. 260pts
Deff Dread: x2 scorchas, extra armor. 100pts
Painmob 2: 435pts
Painboy: 50pts
Boyz: 9 boyz, 1 boss nob: Power Klaw. Trukk: Reinforced ram. 130pts
Nobz: 5 Nobz: 4 with big choppas. 1 with power klaw, Waaagh Banner.
Deff Dread: x2 scorchas, extra armor. 100pts
Morgrok's Bossboyz: 490pts
Big Mek (Warlord): Da Finkin' Kap, Mega Armor, Killsaw, bosspole.100pts
Big Mek: Da Lucky Stikk, Mega Armor, Killsaw, bosspole. 115pts
Big Mek: Mega Armor, Killsaw, bosspole. 90pts
Warboss: Warbike, power klaw, bosspole 115pts
Wierdboy: ML 2. 70pts
Tactics wise, you put one MA mek in each trukk, and give them a heavy armored shield with 1 having delicious rerolls with DLS, and the other being the warlord who always has the trait of rerolling a single armor save per turn. Put the DLS Mek, foot painboy, and the wierdboy with the trukk Nobz, and now all your Nobz are WS 5, and have FNP.
Have the warbikes and trukks hidden behind LOS blocking cover, and if you can get a roll of at least 2 on the D3, you get to outflank (with acute senses!) your Deff dreads with double scorchas. This kinda eliminates the big problem of deff dreads not being able to move fast enough. To top it all off, you get +1 to seize initiative rolls
Also, every unit here is part of a painmob, so they all can handle the eventual counter attack pretty well.
Thoughts? Concerns? It might not be the most competitive, but it looks like it could be fun!
Sounds like a killy list. If you have to have a nob tax you might as well make them good (though the bike upgrade is still too much, maybe just another truck or battlewagon with killkanon...it's about the same price of 5 nob bikes).
I'd just put them on bikes, give them big chopas and a PK. If you have to run a nob squad, might as well make a pseudo-deathstar out of them. Going halfway with nob squads won't get them very far.
just realised that you cant get the mega force field without taking the decurion any more which basically means you can never have the 4++ invul without taking a core (massive dumb tax to pay) and then take a big mek in a command slot, which means competitive ork lists cant have the mega force field. Thanks GW.
Tiny_Titan wrote: just realised that you cant get the mega force field without taking the decurion any more which basically means you can never have the 4++ invul without taking a core (massive dumb tax to pay) and then take a big mek in a command slot, which means competitive ork lists cant have the mega force field. Thanks GW.
Gw, the abusive spouse of war gaming. They throw you down the stairs for being not as atractive as spacemarines and then says they're sorry and will never do it again....except gw never says their sorry....
Rismonite wrote: I want to say you can take a CAD with the W!G supplement and use entries from the ork codex. Allowing you to take MFF
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean that is what a supplement is supposed to be like isnt it?
I believe the book says that if you take a detachment in this book then you can take artefacts from either book, but the normal codex doesn't do that. I hope you are right though!!!
Maybe we should email someone from GW
Come to think of it, I have seen mega force field used in a cad but I'm not sure that's legal any more or ever was :/
LoW:
Klaw Frenzy Stompa! with power fields, super charger, flambelcha and 3 big shoota
If you have never played the Klaw Frenzy stompa, here what you should now. First, you do not have a lot of range weapons as you have to give up your gun arm for another melee weapon, called a Titan Close Combat weapon. IA: Apocalypse says a Titan Close Combat weapon gives you +3 to your Attack stat. (in this stompa's case, that is a +6) Frenzy Stompa's gain an additional 3 attacks. Then you have +1 for two CC weapons and +1 for charging, for a grand total of 15! (base 4 +6+3+1+1=15) Now the Super charger, which is a Klaw frenzy only upgrade, doubles your charge range! (2d6 x 2). You might be like this is awesome, crazy, WTF? and etc. This is all to make up for the fact you are missing your gun arms and using melee as your primary weapons. You can easy make a first turn charge with him. Kind of want to see the look on the guy's face when I roll a 10 and then double that to 20" for a charge from the center of the table on turn one. Also, if the Klaw stompa kills a vehicle in the assault he then gets to through it as if he had a lifta dropa. (if you scatter right, you can throw the vehicle into another unit or vehicle, )
Wanting to play the Clawstoma myself I of course need to explain my opponents about the number of attacks and other rules. So, I am wondering how did you get them to accept this Stompa-build with 14/15 attacks.
- Where does it say that a Titan close combat weapon gives +3 attacks, that might have been the case in 6th edition but no more in 7th. Or do I miss something?
- How did you 'translate' the klawfrenzy rules to 7th?
- Did someone rule/FAQ the double charge range for the turbocharger?
Just to clarify, you can build an Ork CAD and have W!G formations? Been playing 30k all of 7th and most of 6th so formations are still kind of new to me.
On the formation note, has there been a review of the W!G formations further back in this thread. Theres a couple I am interested in running and am trying to come up with the best way to run them.
Col. Dash wrote: Just to clarify, you can build an Ork CAD and have W!G formations? Been playing 30k all of 7th and most of 6th so formations are still kind of new to me.
On the formation note, has there been a review of the W!G formations further back in this thread. Theres a couple I am interested in running and am trying to come up with the best way to run them.
Yeah you can take any number of detachments and formations in your army, there's more detail in the Detachments section of the rule book.
I'm sure that there's plenty of references to those formations in this thread somewhere, try using the search feature of this forum and see what comes up or alternatively ask any questions in here. There's plenty of experienced Ork generals who can help you out more than I can
LoW:
Klaw Frenzy Stompa! with power fields, super charger, flambelcha and 3 big shoota
If you have never played the Klaw Frenzy stompa, here what you should now. First, you do not have a lot of range weapons as you have to give up your gun arm for another melee weapon, called a Titan Close Combat weapon. IA: Apocalypse says a Titan Close Combat weapon gives you +3 to your Attack stat. (in this stompa's case, that is a +6) Frenzy Stompa's gain an additional 3 attacks. Then you have +1 for two CC weapons and +1 for charging, for a grand total of 15! (base 4 +6+3+1+1=15) Now the Super charger, which is a Klaw frenzy only upgrade, doubles your charge range! (2d6 x 2). You might be like this is awesome, crazy, WTF? and etc. This is all to make up for the fact you are missing your gun arms and using melee as your primary weapons. You can easy make a first turn charge with him. Kind of want to see the look on the guy's face when I roll a 10 and then double that to 20" for a charge from the center of the table on turn one. Also, if the Klaw stompa kills a vehicle in the assault he then gets to through it as if he had a lifta dropa. (if you scatter right, you can throw the vehicle into another unit or vehicle, )
Wanting to play the Clawstoma myself I of course need to explain my opponents about the number of attacks and other rules. So, I am wondering how did you get them to accept this Stompa-build with 14/15 attacks.
- Where does it say that a Titan close combat weapon gives +3 attacks, that might have been the case in 6th edition but no more in 7th. Or do I miss something?
- How did you 'translate' the klawfrenzy rules to 7th?
- Did someone rule/FAQ the double charge range for the turbocharger?
The titan close combat rules are in the FAQ for the Imperial Armor Apoc book. You will have to surf the web for it because FW took it down when they updated the website.
Klawfrenzy translated came from FW to saying that the stompa gains +3 attacks, reroll stompa attacks, and can pick up and throw a destoryed vehicle using the lifta dropa rules.
Double charge range for the Supercharger was from a question that I ask FW. Since IA8 was printed back when charge range was a flat 6 and now its 2d6. FW simply said it was now (2d6) x2, but if you chose to use it you have to roll a d6. On a 1, charge is failed and you can't use it for the rest of the game.
The titan close combat rules are in the FAQ for the Imperial Armor Apoc book. You will have to surf the web for it because FW took it down when they updated the website.
There is a FAQ for the 2013 Imperial apocalypse book which adds the Titan close combat weapons? I don't seem to be able to find this FAQ anywhere. Could you perhaps send it to me so I can give my Clawstompa these extra attacks as well ?
I am working out a list and there are two formations I will be using. I am building for friendly games but would like these formations to be somewhat functional. They will be used in a normal CAD with your typical trukk boyz, tankbustas, deffkoptas and some heavy tanks and battle wagons. Going with a blood axe heavy mech panza kompanie theme(love the kromlech heads).
The two I want to use are the Kommando formation and the Vulcha Boyz formation.
What are the optimal numbers and weapons for them.
Kommandos- I was thinking three minimum squads with rokkets and one maxed out squad with Snikrot.With the number of guys this formation has, is it worth putting power klaws or any upgrades on the nobs?
Vulcha Boyz- three ten man squads with power klaw nobs. I think any more would be very unwieldy and difficult to deep strike. On the charge with that many klaws it would be nasty I think.
I am thinking they would definitely provide hard targeting choices for my opponent who is coming at him with all the vehicle mounted guys and protect my rear element gun tanks.
I have used the Kommando formation before, and it's loads of fun against all except tau (stupid ignores cover). The trick with them is that you don't want to shoot on that first turn you arrive, because it'll negate the delicious rerollable shrouded cover you get. I ran one with only one large squad, with a power klaw, and multiple smaller squads with big choppa boss nobs. Worked very well on wrecking some wyverns camped behind an agis.
The thing is, unless you opponent is going to deliberately hold back some melee forces on the backfield of his board (in which case, you could just pop in from the side) you're probably not going to face that many strong melee guys. So a big choppa over a power klaw is a pretty cost effective choice that is still very capable of wrecking backfield campers and tanks. (of course, this depends on your local metta).
A great trick to pull if you are not able to come onto some ruins (for a fantastic 2+ rerollable cover save!), is to put a less expensive unit in front of the one that you know your opponent wants to kill (in my case, I have one unit at 14 boyz, 1 boss nob with power klaw, and Boss Snikrot which was clearly the largest threat of all my kommando squads). If they shoot the less expensive guys, you still get a 5+ rerollable cover (4+ if you want to go to ground), and they're wasting shooting. If they shoot at the main squad, you now get a 3+ rerollable cover because of intervening models, and shrouded. It's awesome
All in all, this formation is very fun to use, but tricky in timed tournaments, as so much of your army is in reserve, they may not get into the battle, or at least do much, before time runs out.
Palleus wrote: I have used the Kommando formation before, and it's loads of fun against all except tau (stupid ignores cover). The trick with them is that you don't want to shoot on that first turn you arrive, because it'll negate the delicious rerollable shrouded cover you get. I ran one with only one large squad, with a power klaw, and multiple smaller squads with big choppa boss nobs. Worked very well on wrecking some wyverns camped behind an agis.
That sounds like a fun formation. Wonderful against guards whose tanks you'll pop one after another.
Palleus wrote: I've found that the painmob can be incredibly good, but the rule is actually best for countering your units getting charged. Took a double painmob and CAD list to my last tourney and tied for 3rd. Every game I had, I got to use the "pile on the pain!" ability to clear out a combat and move to assault another one that same turn. Very good for making sure your guys don't get tied up. Now I should point out that my FLGS has ruled it so that any ICs that join a unit from the painmob get to benefit from it's "pile on the pain" rule. I know everyone is bummed about the "tax" of the deff dread, so I was thinking about using a rarely thought of formation: Morgrok's Bossboyz.
The kind of list I would run would be something like this as a 1500 point list, season equipment to taste, of course:
Painmob 1: 575pts
Painboy: warbike, 75pts
Boyz: 9 boyz, 1 boss nob: Power Klaw. Trukk: Reinforced ram. 130pts
Nobz: 4 Nob Bikers: 2 with big choppas, 1 with power klaw, 1 with power klaw and waaagh banner. 260pts
Deff Dread: x2 scorchas, extra armor. 100pts
Painmob 2: 435pts
Painboy: 50pts
Boyz: 9 boyz, 1 boss nob: Power Klaw. Trukk: Reinforced ram. 130pts
Nobz: 5 Nobz: 4 with big choppas. 1 with power klaw, Waaagh Banner.
Deff Dread: x2 scorchas, extra armor. 100pts
Morgrok's Bossboyz: 490pts
Big Mek (Warlord): Da Finkin' Kap, Mega Armor, Killsaw, bosspole.100pts
Big Mek: Da Lucky Stikk, Mega Armor, Killsaw, bosspole. 115pts
Big Mek: Mega Armor, Killsaw, bosspole. 90pts
Warboss: Warbike, power klaw, bosspole 115pts
Wierdboy: ML 2. 70pts
Tactics wise, you put one MA mek in each trukk, and give them a heavy armored shield with 1 having delicious rerolls with DLS, and the other being the warlord who always has the trait of rerolling a single armor save per turn. Put the DLS Mek, foot painboy, and the wierdboy with the trukk Nobz, and now all your Nobz are WS 5, and have FNP.
Have the warbikes and trukks hidden behind LOS blocking cover, and if you can get a roll of at least 2 on the D3, you get to outflank (with acute senses!) your Deff dreads with double scorchas. This kinda eliminates the big problem of deff dreads not being able to move fast enough. To top it all off, you get +1 to seize initiative rolls
Also, every unit here is part of a painmob, so they all can handle the eventual counter attack pretty well.
Thoughts? Concerns? It might not be the most competitive, but it looks like it could be fun!
Mega armour is bulky so it takes up two transport slots right? Would need to drop one ork from each trukk boy squad in this case. Otherwise this list is great. Gonna run it soon!
Palleus wrote: I've found that the painmob can be incredibly good, but the rule is actually best for countering your units getting charged. Took a double painmob and CAD list to my last tourney and tied for 3rd. Every game I had, I got to use the "pile on the pain!" ability to clear out a combat and move to assault another one that same turn. Very good for making sure your guys don't get tied up. Now I should point out that my FLGS has ruled it so that any ICs that join a unit from the painmob get to benefit from it's "pile on the pain" rule. I know everyone is bummed about the "tax" of the deff dread, so I was thinking about using a rarely thought of formation: Morgrok's Bossboyz.
The kind of list I would run would be something like this as a 1500 point list, season equipment to taste, of course:
Painmob 1: 575pts
Painboy: warbike, 75pts
Boyz: 9 boyz, 1 boss nob: Power Klaw. Trukk: Reinforced ram. 130pts
Nobz: 4 Nob Bikers: 2 with big choppas, 1 with power klaw, 1 with power klaw and waaagh banner. 260pts
Deff Dread: x2 scorchas, extra armor. 100pts
Painmob 2: 435pts
Painboy: 50pts
Boyz: 9 boyz, 1 boss nob: Power Klaw. Trukk: Reinforced ram. 130pts
Nobz: 5 Nobz: 4 with big choppas. 1 with power klaw, Waaagh Banner.
Deff Dread: x2 scorchas, extra armor. 100pts
Morgrok's Bossboyz: 490pts
Big Mek (Warlord): Da Finkin' Kap, Mega Armor, Killsaw, bosspole.100pts
Big Mek: Da Lucky Stikk, Mega Armor, Killsaw, bosspole. 115pts
Big Mek: Mega Armor, Killsaw, bosspole. 90pts
Warboss: Warbike, power klaw, bosspole 115pts
Wierdboy: ML 2. 70pts
Tactics wise, you put one MA mek in each trukk, and give them a heavy armored shield with 1 having delicious rerolls with DLS, and the other being the warlord who always has the trait of rerolling a single armor save per turn. Put the DLS Mek, foot painboy, and the wierdboy with the trukk Nobz, and now all your Nobz are WS 5, and have FNP.
Have the warbikes and trukks hidden behind LOS blocking cover, and if you can get a roll of at least 2 on the D3, you get to outflank (with acute senses!) your Deff dreads with double scorchas. This kinda eliminates the big problem of deff dreads not being able to move fast enough. To top it all off, you get +1 to seize initiative rolls
Also, every unit here is part of a painmob, so they all can handle the eventual counter attack pretty well.
Thoughts? Concerns? It might not be the most competitive, but it looks like it could be fun!
Mega armour is bulky so it takes up two transport slots right? Would need to drop one ork from each trukk boy squad in this case. Otherwise this list is great. Gonna run it soon!
It does take up to slots, that's why the boyz squads are just the minimum 10 man size (9 boyz, 1 nob). So the boyz trukks would be at thier max capacity of 12. But glad you like it! I realized now that the list is actually over by 5 points, so I would take out one of the big choppas from the nobz unit to make it an even 1500.
You can take any relic from either book. Just look under orkimedes kustom gubbins in the new book and it is very clear you can take either in the new detachments. It says in addition to the codex relics they can take the custom gubbins.
cranect wrote: You can take any relic from either book. Just look under orkimedes kustom gubbins in the new book and it is very clear you can take either in the new detachments. It says in addition to the codex relics they can take the custom gubbins.
This is only if you take a detachment or formation from the new book though, and it only applies to those formations and detachments
I need to finish it.
The warkopta can't carry mega nobs, but can be in squads. I don't think this is a great idea for them. The plus side is you can get a 
This has prompted me to rebuild my list to something new. What is Orks greatest strengts/advantages? Cheap CQB units, cheap 
I've got a single trukk, and I just scratch built 2 battlewagons, though, so we'll see how that goes. (both my own gaming group and my local 
And, if I'm perfectly honest, when combat rolls around, and I'm about to swing with the klaw I'm thinking "and now for the attacks that actually matter."
