Vaktathi wrote: I would love to see suppressors get off the NFA, ive been holding off getting an Osprey for my Scorpion until the stamp wait is under 6 months, but I'm just not optimistic itll ever happen
Really Id like to see the NFA gone entirely, or at least just limit it to MG's and DD's (and remove the hughes amendment), just judging on history though it doesnt seem like anyone is ever willing to touch the NFA.
Hoping this pulls through. I've had a suppressor in jail for about a month now...should have it in time for NEXT hunting season. Meh...
The biggest thing to look forward to in the immediate future is hoping the wait times will come down now that the 41f craze is over and Hillary-doom wont be driving the markets into insanity the way they went in 2008 and 2012.
MG prices I fear will never come down to pre 2008 levels :(
Vaktathi wrote: The biggest thing to look forward to in the immediate future is hoping the wait times will come down now that the 41f craze is over and Hillary-doom wont be driving the markets into insanity the way they went in 2008 and 2012.
MG prices I fear will never come down to pre 2008 levels :(
MGs will only come down when FOPA gets repealed, and I don't see that happening any time soon.
Just when I could finally have gotten into that game, stuff that had gone for $3500 or $5k for 15 years or more is now going for twice that over the last 4 or 5 years. Who would have though M11's would start at $7k?
Vaktathi wrote: The biggest thing to look forward to in the immediate future is hoping the wait times will come down now that the 41f craze is over and Hillary-doom wont be driving the markets into insanity the way they went in 2008 and 2012.
MG prices I fear will never come down to pre 2008 levels :(
For the time being, based on the number of people waiting on their stamp, we are telling customers to brace for a 12 month wait on approval.
Unless of course the new president changes things, in which case suppressors for all!
Ill just be happy when prices on AR and AK parts goes down. Lack of available lowers and the price of the remaining ones are is a huge hurdle in the wife signing off on my build.
Just when I could finally have gotten into that game, stuff that had gone for $3500 or $5k for 15 years or more is now going for twice that over the last 4 or 5 years. Who would have though M11's would start at $7k?
The sad thing is that when I owned a Cobray M11 9mm, the coast of everything (weapon, stamp, fingerprinting, sales tax, sign-off on the Form 4, passport sized photos) came out to be roughly 1700 bucks. But this was back in the mid-90's.
It's almost unbelievable that the (formerly) cheaper options like STEN Mk. IIs and M11/M10s are so damned high. But then again, I remember 1500 dollar M1 Thompsons back in the early 1980's.
Vaktathi wrote: The biggest thing to look forward to in the immediate future is hoping the wait times will come down now that the 41f craze is over and Hillary-doom wont be driving the markets into insanity the way they went in 2008 and 2012.
MG prices I fear will never come down to pre 2008 levels :(
For the time being, based on the number of people waiting on their stamp, we are telling customers to brace for a 12 month wait on approval.
Unless of course the new president changes things, in which case suppressors for all!
Never understood why suppressors were restricted in the first place. Someone based policies on Hollywood.
Vaktathi wrote: The biggest thing to look forward to in the immediate future is hoping the wait times will come down now that the 41f craze is over and Hillary-doom wont be driving the markets into insanity the way they went in 2008 and 2012.
MG prices I fear will never come down to pre 2008 levels :(
For the time being, based on the number of people waiting on their stamp, we are telling customers to brace for a 12 month wait on approval.
Unless of course the new president changes things, in which case suppressors for all!
Vaktathi wrote: The biggest thing to look forward to in the immediate future is hoping the wait times will come down now that the 41f craze is over and Hillary-doom wont be driving the markets into insanity the way they went in 2008 and 2012.
MG prices I fear will never come down to pre 2008 levels :(
For the time being, based on the number of people waiting on their stamp, we are telling customers to brace for a 12 month wait on approval.
Unless of course the new president changes things, in which case suppressors for all!
12 months? Holy crap...fun store told me 6 mo.
That's been the case, but there is a massive backlog all the way back from July 1st when people were trying to beat the redefinition of a trust as well as the election. We heard from ATF that its turned to a crawl. Not sure where you are in the process, wish the best for you!
Vaktathi wrote: The biggest thing to look forward to in the immediate future is hoping the wait times will come down now that the 41f craze is over and Hillary-doom wont be driving the markets into insanity the way they went in 2008 and 2012.
MG prices I fear will never come down to pre 2008 levels :(
For the time being, based on the number of people waiting on their stamp, we are telling customers to brace for a 12 month wait on approval.
Unless of course the new president changes things, in which case suppressors for all!
Never understood why suppressors were restricted in the first place. Someone based policies on Hollywood.
No actually, the game wardens and farmer and ranchers pushed for it in 1934. People were poaching what they could to feed their families during the Great Depression, which included wild game and herded livestock. I cant wait for HPA to pass. Fingers crossed!
Just got my suppressor out of jail! Submitted March 26th, approved November 05th, received November 16th, 235 days!...
The wait time right now is pretty ridiculous. I won't see the other suppressor until mid to late next year. Form 1 SBRs are just as bad, I have one submitted in June and the other July. So far it looks like ill be lucky if i get the June stamp back this year, looking more like January 2017, the other one will be February or March 2017.
I would not hold my breath on the hearing protection act, if you want a can get it now. If the HPA does get passed any suppressor tax from October 2015 on up will get refunded.
Submitted March 26th, approved November 05th, received November 16th, 235 days!...
That...that hurts. I thought the 90 day wait on my Scorpion was bad.
My plans for an SBR for next year are feeling painful already
I would not hold my breath on the hearing protection act, if you want a can get it now.
Aye, as much as I'd hope for it to pass, I'm not expecting anything, the GOP might fight new anti-gun legislation, but going by history don't seem terribly interested in being proactive about overturning existing legislation.
I don't think we have crossed that line yet, but we got a new POTUS and Congress getting ready to be sworn into office in a couple months.
Figured it would be a good reminder for all of us to be mindful of checking the politics of guns at the door to keep this thread healthy and unlocked. We need another 90 pages of healthy gun talk and sharing pictures!
I saw this and immediately decided I wanted to build one next year. SBR with an Echo or Binary trigger and a shorty can while sporting that drum mag? Why yes, I'll take that 21st century Tommy gun.
Vaktathi wrote: I saw this and immediately decided I wanted to build one next year. SBR with an Echo or Binary trigger and a shorty can while sporting that drum mag? Why yes, I'll take that 21st century Tommy gun.
Fingers crossed that NFA wait times go down
Man, who would have thought a California-compliant stock would look so cool. Even though I live in a free state that might happen .
Please leave the gun debates in other threads. This one has lasted because the gun haters have stayed out. I suggest not responding to the questions/statements. If they want to know something start a thread.
Yesterday had a buddy and his two teenaged daughters over for the day. Went kayaking then took out a few rifles and a couple pistols an blew through a bunch of ammo.
So late this morning I'm chilling out and cleaning the toys we fired yesterday.
I've realized, gas tube/DI get a feth LOAD dirtier than piston gunz, and cleaning the star chamber area just sucks booty.
/still find cleaning rifles a therapeutic/zen like activity
CptJake wrote: Yesterday had a buddy and his two teenaged daughters over for the day. Went kayaking then took out a few rifles and a couple pistols an blew through a bunch of ammo.
So late this morning I'm chilling out and cleaning the toys we fired yesterday.
I've realized, gas tube/DI get a feth LOAD dirtier than piston gunz, and cleaning the star chamber area just sucks booty.
/still find cleaning rifles a therapeutic/zen like activity
DI guns are notably dirtier than piston guns, and that's always been one of the things people hold against them, though the worst I think are roller delayed blowback in my experience. 50 rounds through a G3 and the insides look like 200 through my AR
That said, the roller delayed blowback is a much more violent action in general that doesn't seem to care as much about being dirty either.
CptJake wrote: Yesterday had a buddy and his two teenaged daughters over for the day. Went kayaking then took out a few rifles and a couple pistols an blew through a bunch of ammo.
So late this morning I'm chilling out and cleaning the toys we fired yesterday.
I've realized, gas tube/DI get a feth LOAD dirtier than piston gunz, and cleaning the star chamber area just sucks booty.
/still find cleaning rifles a therapeutic/zen like activity
DI guns are notably dirtier than piston guns, and that's always been one of the things people hold against them, though the worst I think are roller delayed blowback in my experience. 50 rounds through a G3 and the insides look like 200 through my AR
That said, the roller delayed blowback is a much more violent action in general that doesn't seem to care as much about being dirty either.
Yeah, I have an HK-91 and understand what you're saying...
Cothonian wrote: Swear that meant second shot going through the near exact same spot, typically half inch or less below the original shot?
Automatically Appended Next Post: ...and just looked that up. That's what I get for bringing local range jargon to the interwebs.
Rifle does not key hole, it simply hits the same spot over and over again at 100 yards.
To be fair, I thought the second shot going through near the exact same spot was what you meant by keyholing as well. The actual definition makes sense as well though.
CETME-L in 5.56. Basically a Spanish HK G33...with zero interchangability of parts.
With a G3 (PRT91GI-R) and an AR-15. The G3 is markedly larger and dramatically heavier, while the CETME-L is much easier to operate the bolt and charging handle with.
I'm going to be out of the country for the next week so I won't be able to shoot it until I return after the New Year, but I'm looking forward to getting some time in with it!
I like it. Would rather of had the wife make it home for the holiday (she was supposed to redeploy 2 weeks ago but got extended) but it definitely was a cool gift choice from her.
OK, I have a gun rant here, but don't worry, it's not political, it's historical, it's OT, and specifically, it's a gun comparison rant.
Now, most of us on dakka are wargamers, and some of us play Bolt Action and FOW.
In both those games, the US army gets bonuses to firepower/ moving and shooting, for having its infantry platoons armed with BARs and automatic rifles.
I have no problem with US infantrymen getting the bonus for having the automatic rifles, they are impressive weapons, tried and tested in the heat of war, and justify the bonus. But a bonus for being armed with a BAR?
Not for me.
This is where you guys come in, and I'm interested in other people's opinions, because it's obviously an American weapon, and some of you guys may own or have fired a BAR. I've done neither. My knowledge of the BAR is based on youtube videos and history books.
But in comparison to the weapons of other armies of the era, I feel the game bonus for being armed with a BAR is not justified.
The BAR is obviously a portable weapon, almost a light machine gun, and can be fired either stationary or on the move.
But the Bren gun is also light enough for one man to carry and fire on the move, and it's better IMO.
The MG34 is also light enough for one man to carry and fire, and churns out a hell of a number of rounds.
Even the Red Army had a easy carry light machine gun similar to the BAR.
Essentially, I'm comparing the BAR Vs. Bren gun Vs. MG34 and wondering why the dakka the US infantry is getting this bonus in FOW and Bolt Action, because IMO it's not historically justified.
Some of you guys will have fired or owned BAR/BREN/MG34
so your opinions on this would be appreciated. Thanks.
I don't know about the others personally but the BAR is a heavy mother. I saw guys in films doing walking fire but just standing and holding it was effort and I was a manly man at the time.
Frazzled wrote: I don't know about the others personally but the BAR is a heavy mother. I saw guys in films doing walking fire but just standing and holding it was effort and I was a manly man at the time.
That's the conclusion I drew as well. It's important for me to point out that I've never been within a hundred miles of a BAR in my life, but having watched 2 gun action matches on youtube (inrangetv) they didn't like it either, and those guys speak a lot of sense 99% of the time.
They concluded that the BAR was clunky, awkward, the sight was awful, and that total respect should be accorded to all the US marines/infantrymen who had to use it in WW2. They also pointed out that the US military had done nothing to modernise the BAR during the 1920/30s and that ironically, it was the Belgians with their version of the BAR, that made the necessary upgrades.
The concept of a squad level light machine gun/machine rifle starts in WWI. All parties had a version of it by WWII. Some were heavier, some were lighter, but they had similar concepts.
Frazzled wrote: The concept of a squad level light machine gun/machine rifle starts in WWI. All parties had a version of it by WWII. Some were heavier, some were lighter, but they had similar concepts.
Comparing the merits of the 3 weapons, we see the following:
BAR: 20 round mag, 300 Rounds per minute.
Bren: 30 round mag, 500 rounds per minute
MG34: belt feed, 800-900 rounds per minute
Granted, the BAR is fractionally lighter than the other 2, but damn it, it seems 'inferior' in almost every other regard.
Perhaps it's best to see the BAR as level above a rifle, but below your typical light machine gun, but then you could argue that the Bren could have been used in a similar fashion, as there's not much between a Bren and a BAR in many respects.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: [ With all due respect, I feel this is the right place for such a discussion.
If not here, where?
Maybe a thread other than 'firearms you own and their uses'.
You're asking about Bolt Action/FOW effects for guns in those games, again, the historical game board would be a great place, adding to some Bolt Action threads already there, or the FOW section.
Those games reflect tactical doctrine and the effect of every man in the squad having an automatic weapon, not just a straight up comparison of the squad LMG.
In my limited experience, the BAR is an awful weapon. It can be fun, but having gotten to shoot them a couple times, I would not want to take one into battle.
Hardy and mostly reliable, but obscenely overweight, pathetic ammunition capacity and volume of fire, almost impossible to use effectively off the shoulder, terrible ergonomics, useless sights, and an infuriating bipod. The bipod is a particular travesty. You really have to fight the gun to get it to do anything almost.
Really, it's a weapon built aloing the same concept of the Chauchaut, and was no less obsolete by the time of WW2. They're cool looking guns, but the BAR was absolutely a low point of US WW2 small arms. The polish WW2 iterations were actually much better, but were still about the last option I'd pick if I had a choice amongst weapons like Brens, Lewis guns, MG34/42's, Zb26, Madses, 1919's, etc.
BAR Could shoot faster than 300 rpm but was artificially limited. I saw some accuracy tests and the Bren was more accurate. BAR was showing its age and was really more of a pain in the ass assault rifle.
MG42 was more complex and ate too much ammo. I would put the Bren or the modified 30 cal the US used starting in 1944 higher on the list. Of course the rooskies had a pan fed lmg as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: we should remember the BAR was also 20 years older.
Well, the MG42's high rate of fire was there for a specific tactical usage in German doctrine, primarily that MG's were assigned to every squad (or even 2 to each squad) and the MG was the central core of the unit providing the bulk of the killing capacity and was heavily used in direct aimed fire against individuals, as opposed to say, the US or UK doctrine where that's what riflemen do and the MG's are a platoon or company support weapon providing suppressing and supporting fire and often targeting an area or zone instead of individuals. Within that German doctrine, the idea of the super high rate of fire was to put as many rounds on a target as possible in a very short timespan, to ensure that targets could not avoid hits "hiding" between rounds (as can happen with slower firing MG's, a sweeping burst across a 100m range may land one bullet every 10m with big gaps that an MG42 wont offer) when brought to bear against moving individual targets.
That made sense when everyone was equipped with bolt action rifles or SMG's. Once everyone had higher rate of fire rifles and the world moved to the Assault Rifle, the need for that high RoF diminished and the tactical operation of infantry units changed. For what it was initially developed for, the high RoF made sense.
I feel I do owe some apology for not making my intent clearer.
Obviously, this is not the thread for discussing tactical doctrine between the nations in WW2 and apologies for taking it OT.
I mentioned FOW and Bolt Action to set up the premise of my question about the merits of each weapon.
Military history and fan historical fiction is a hobby of mine, so I drop into this thread occasionally to get insights from you guys, as you may have owned or fired these weapons at some time, and obviously gun ownership and culture is miles apart when you compare the USA and UK.
When it comes to the BAR/Bren/MG34
I was looking for insights into what it's like to fire these weapons, ease of running with them on your back, are they easy to reload, what are the sights like, are they practical in the field, how accurate are they etc etc
The sort of info that Vaktathi and Frazz have provided
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an example, even to a non-gun person such as myself, if you're lying on the ground shooting a BAR, it must be awkward trying to reload the thing, compared to a Bren, where the magazine goes in the top, as opposed to the BAR where the magazine goes underneath.
And as Frazz mentioned, the Russian light machine gun (DP 1928) with the dinner plate magazine, must have been awkward to reload at the best of times, and that's even before we go onto belt-fed guns like the MG34.
BAR isn't much harder to load in the prone position than any other position. Much like any modern detachable mag-fed rifle, just rotate the gun slightly and switch mags.
Though yes, I imagine a Bren might be easier, but I can't see it being a major difference in combat.
Nostromodamus wrote: BAR isn't much harder to load in the prone position than any other position. Much like any modern detachable mag-fed rifle, just rotate the gun slightly and switch mags.
Though yes, I imagine a Bren might be easier, but I can't see it being a major difference in combat.
Have you or anybody else any experience of reloading belt feed guns like the MG34 or doing a barrel change whilst prone? I can't imagine that would be easy either, even on a perfect day at the range or wherever.
And another point that other members might know the answer to: is barrel overheating really a major thing in these above mentioned guns if you fire loads of rounds through them?
I've read one or two personal accounts of British and German troops in Normandy, and it's only briefly touched on, but I imagine it could be a problem, but not a major one. I might be wrong.
Nostromodamus wrote: BAR isn't much harder to load in the prone position than any other position. Much like any modern detachable mag-fed rifle, just rotate the gun slightly and switch mags.
Though yes, I imagine a Bren might be easier, but I can't see it being a major difference in combat.
Have you or anybody else any experience of reloading belt feed guns like the MG34 or doing a barrel change whilst prone? I can't imagine that would be easy either, even on a perfect day at the range or wherever.
And another point that other members might know the answer to: is barrel overheating really a major thing in these above mentioned guns if you fire loads of rounds through them?
I've read one or two personal accounts of British and German troops in Normandy, and it's only briefly touched on, but I imagine it could be a problem, but not a major one. I might be wrong.
Thanks.
I was a AG on the M-60 and later the 240b.. also AG for a mg-42 when in Germany. I was issued a mitt for grabbing the M-60 barrel and yes that bastard got hot. Barrel change was quick since we practiced all the time. 240b was better since it had a handle and was really easy to change the barrel. Push a button and slap the handle barrel came right off, insert new barrel and push handle to side and your rocking again. MG-42 gunner pulled a handle and barrel opened to side and you had to grab the hot barrel with a mitt. M-60 bipod legs where attached to the barrel so if not using the tripod the gunner had to lift the gun for the AG to grab the barrel. Running around with a red hot barrel in my hand was a common occurrence when on a mission. If I set the barrel on something dry it usually caught fire from the barrel being so hot. Being the AG was one of the toughest jobs in the light infantry since you carried so much weight in ammo and gear for the gun.
Nostromodamus wrote: BAR isn't much harder to load in the prone position than any other position. Much like any modern detachable mag-fed rifle, just rotate the gun slightly and switch mags.
Though yes, I imagine a Bren might be easier, but I can't see it being a major difference in combat.
Have you or anybody else any experience of reloading belt feed guns like the MG34 or doing a barrel change whilst prone? I can't imagine that would be easy either, even on a perfect day at the range or wherever.
And another point that other members might know the answer to: is barrel overheating really a major thing in these above mentioned guns if you fire loads of rounds through them?
I've read one or two personal accounts of British and German troops in Normandy, and it's only briefly touched on, but I imagine it could be a problem, but not a major one. I might be wrong.
Thanks.
I was a AG on the M-60 and later the 240b.. also AG for a mg-42 when in Germany. I was issued a mitt for grabbing the M-60 barrel and yes that bastard got hot. Barrel change was quick since we practiced all the time. 240b was better since it had a handle and was really easy to change the barrel. Push a button and slap the handle barrel came right off, insert new barrel and push handle to side and your rocking again. MG-42 gunner pulled a handle and barrel opened to side and you had to grab the hot barrel with a mitt. M-60 bipod legs where attached to the barrel so if not using the tripod the gunner had to lift the gun for the AG to grab the barrel. Running around with a red hot barrel in my hand was a common occurrence when on a mission. If I set the barrel on something dry it usually caught fire from the barrel being so hot. Being the AG was one of the toughest jobs in the light infantry since you carried so much weight in ammo and gear for the gun.
Interesting info. Thanks. Never knew you had to wear an heat proof glove to change these things.
Presumably, you would have had replacement barrels. Couldn't you have ditched the old barrel for a new one, instead of having to run around with a red hot barrel?
One thing that I have heard from people that have actually fired a BAR is that with it's lower rate of fire and weight, it was easier to keep on target if you were shouldering it. Higher rates of fire would make the barrel jump all over the place.
The muzzle doesnt move much on a BAR when shooting, the weight does minimize recoil, but that weight makes it hard to wield from the shoulder and keep on target too.
And yes, guns get very hot, got a nice sore burn on my thumb from accidentally touching the sling loop on my AK74 last time I took it out after putting ~120 rounds through it
cuda1179 wrote: One thing that I have heard from people that have actually fired a BAR is that with it's lower rate of fire and weight, it was easier to keep on target if you were shouldering it. Higher rates of fire would make the barrel jump all over the place.
And yes, guns get very hot, got a nice sore burn on my thumb from accidentally touching the sling loop on my AK74 last time I took it out after putting ~120 rounds through it
My wife got a burn on the boob from a .22 case being ejected into her cleavage
Nostromodamus wrote: BAR isn't much harder to load in the prone position than any other position. Much like any modern detachable mag-fed rifle, just rotate the gun slightly and switch mags.
Though yes, I imagine a Bren might be easier, but I can't see it being a major difference in combat.
Have you or anybody else any experience of reloading belt feed guns like the MG34 or doing a barrel change whilst prone? I can't imagine that would be easy either, even on a perfect day at the range or wherever.
And another point that other members might know the answer to: is barrel overheating really a major thing in these above mentioned guns if you fire loads of rounds through them?
I've read one or two personal accounts of British and German troops in Normandy, and it's only briefly touched on, but I imagine it could be a problem, but not a major one. I might be wrong.
Thanks.
I was a AG on the M-60 and later the 240b.. also AG for a mg-42 when in Germany. I was issued a mitt for grabbing the M-60 barrel and yes that bastard got hot. Barrel change was quick since we practiced all the time. 240b was better since it had a handle and was really easy to change the barrel. Push a button and slap the handle barrel came right off, insert new barrel and push handle to side and your rocking again. MG-42 gunner pulled a handle and barrel opened to side and you had to grab the hot barrel with a mitt. M-60 bipod legs where attached to the barrel so if not using the tripod the gunner had to lift the gun for the AG to grab the barrel. Running around with a red hot barrel in my hand was a common occurrence when on a mission. If I set the barrel on something dry it usually caught fire from the barrel being so hot. Being the AG was one of the toughest jobs in the light infantry since you carried so much weight in ammo and gear for the gun.
Interesting info. Thanks. Never knew you had to wear an heat proof glove to change these things.
Presumably, you would have had replacement barrels. Couldn't you have ditched the old barrel for a new one, instead of having to run around with a red hot barrel?
You had a spare barrel bag but it wasn't made for hot barrels would just melt through it. Plus my gunner or squad leader would have killed me if I ditched the barrel, I also signed for that stuff.
Not to beat a dead horse but I was a 0331 before I became a 8541. One of my team leaders that didn't like to wear gloves missed the handle while attempting to change barrels on a 240. I looked over after he screamed and all the skin on the inner part of his hand had melted to the barrel. I missed the handle once too, but I always wore gloves, and even then it burned a 1 inch line across my glove. You have to change barrels though. We had barrels start to sag then get blown off by bullets going out the side of a drooping barrel. Good times.
cuda1179 wrote: One thing that I have heard from people that have actually fired a BAR is that with it's lower rate of fire and weight, it was easier to keep on target if you were shouldering it. Higher rates of fire would make the barrel jump all over the place.
And yes, guns get very hot, got a nice sore burn on my thumb from accidentally touching the sling loop on my AK74 last time I took it out after putting ~120 rounds through it
My wife got a burn on the boob from a .22 case being ejected into her cleavage
I wasn't saying there was a fast/slow fire selector. I was saying that weapons with higher rates of fire are harder to keep on target due to the additional recoil of multiple rounds. This was part of the reason the BAR was artificially limited in its fire rate. Well, that and ammo conservation.
cuda1179 wrote: One thing that I have heard from people that have actually fired a BAR is that with it's lower rate of fire and weight, it was easier to keep on target if you were shouldering it. Higher rates of fire would make the barrel jump all over the place.
And yes, guns get very hot, got a nice sore burn on my thumb from accidentally touching the sling loop on my AK74 last time I took it out after putting ~120 rounds through it
My wife got a burn on the boob from a .22 case being ejected into her cleavage
My experience with hot barrels is typically on my. .22 rifle. We will dump the mag and see who has the best pattern from say 20 yards. And even just having a 15rd burst after a couple of runs, say 3, you really dont want to touch the barrel on that rifle. I could only imagine the heat from an actual LMG or bigger going a 100+ rounds
All the parts were Aero Precision - 20" stainless steel barrel, black nitride BCG & bolt, magpul furniture. The glass and bipod are crappy spares I had lying around, I'll upgrade them soon. I also opted to get only a 20 round mag because it will slow me down ever so slightly when I'm sending a buck and a quarter downrange with every trigger pull. Pew! Pew! Pew! Pew! There goes a latte I could have had.
The 15" keymod rail is over twice as long as the low-end 7" rail on my AR pistol, and is still much, much lighter, Funny how spending more gets you better stuff I guess. It's still pretty heavy, like 12 pounds unloaded as pictured. I don't know what the final weight is going to be since I haven't finalized my optics, and that bipod has GOT to go.
All in all it took very nearly a year before I could get the cerakoted FDE M5 .308 lower that I wanted from Aero Precision. Once I had everything in hand it just took a few hours to build, and I learned a lot about how a cheap chinese AR wrench is a pretty bad investment since after buying one of those, you need to buy an additional one that's actually in spec. Was a fun build though.
I might add some kind of ridiculous muzzle device, since that's what all the cool kids are doing. I found a nice collection of them in 30 cal. Some of them even reduce felt recoil, I understand.
Anvildude wrote: I mean, that's nice and all, but whatever happened to artistry in firearms?
I look at that, and, as a layman, I just see a mud-brown off-the-shelf 'fun gun'.
Where's the engravings? Where's the custom-machined left-hand cross-aim pull? Where's the mirror-polished rosewood stock?
It's, for all intents and purposes, an AR-10. No artistry is need, it's already a phenomenal design.
Also- what's a "Pistol buffer tube", and how does the stabilizing device work when used as 'advertized'?
A pistol buffer tube is a buffer tube that is unable to have a stock attached to it; there is no thread for a screw on the end like on a rifle-length buffer tube and there's no notches for an adjustable length stock like you would find on a carbine-length buffer tube. Its just a smooth tube that allows the firearm to function properly and is what allows it to be considered a "pistol" instead of a short-barreled rifle.
Anvildude wrote: I mean, that's nice and all, but whatever happened to artistry in firearms?
I look at that, and, as a layman, I just see a mud-brown off-the-shelf 'fun gun'.
Where's the engravings? Where's the custom-machined left-hand cross-aim pull? Where's the mirror-polished rosewood stock?
That's all very expensive, easily damaged, wears quickly, and is generally exceedingly poorly advised for firearms intended for actual use, as well as typically lacks now-standard things like adjustable stocks, sight rails, etc.
The artistry is in the design, the modularity, the customized selection of components designed to fit the shooter's preferences, the engineering of the rail systems and barrels, things like that.
So, I wasn't sure whether to post this here, or in the US politics thread, but here we go. The Washington Post wrote an editorial a few days ago about the Hearing Protection Act that would legalize suppressors.
Basically, to sum it up, the author, Mike Rosenwald, claims that legalizing suppressors is a conspiracy of the gun industry. He states that subsonic 22LR ammo is "high powered rifle ammunition".
Here is where it gets funny. When called out on his bogus info on twitter, the author doesn't admit he was wrong. He goes on insisting sub sonic 22LR is high powered, that Militaries of the world use it as combat ammo, that using it in a "tactical weapon" increases its power, and that his contacts in the weapons industry have confirmed everything he states
Probably best to keep that in politics to avoid this thread going astray.
Back on track-missed expert by 8 seconds Sunday at the classifier. Two more possible attempts this year to improve. Considering it was 18 and I was keeping score with an ungloved hand (ok that sounds bad...) I am hopeful. I'd like to see Expert / top 50% of the C class by year end.
Frazzled wrote: ...missed expert by 8 seconds Sunday at the classifier.
What are the rules you're qualifying under? I'm not familiar with qualifying outside the Marine Corps.
IDPA (I Don't Practice Anymore, or alternatively USPSA hosers will call it IPDGay). Pistol competition. Have you heard of run and gun? This is waddle and shoot. http://www.idpa.com/
The rules just changed so I need 96 seconds or under and made 104. 40 seconds better then last year, so thats something. I cheated by practicing....
Hey, NERF doesn't have to be a joke. I remember in college, the Urban Gaming Club guys would trick out their NERF blasters like crazy. Brass barrels for reduced drag, coating the darts for better aerodynamics, removing the limiter baffles so the full pressure can be used, stronger springs or higher-pressure air tanks...
One guy I knew, had two of those Vulcan powered blasters that he'd modified with slings so that he could dual-wield under his arms, and were hooked up to a backpack with a non-spill car battery and integrated air compressor. They each had spliced-together ammo belts, so instead of the stock 10 shots, he could rip those off 30 or 40 darts at a time.
Anvildude wrote: Hey, NERF doesn't have to be a joke. I remember in college, the Urban Gaming Club guys would trick out their NERF blasters like crazy. Brass barrels for reduced drag, coating the darts for better aerodynamics, removing the limiter baffles so the full pressure can be used, stronger springs or higher-pressure air tanks...
One guy I knew, had two of those Vulcan powered blasters that he'd modified with slings so that he could dual-wield under his arms, and were hooked up to a backpack with a non-spill car battery and integrated air compressor. They each had spliced-together ammo belts, so instead of the stock 10 shots, he could rip those off 30 or 40 darts at a time.
Another common thing were 'plexiglass snipers'- folks would get silly high-powered coil springs, and craft themselves long-range, single-shot 'weapons' to fire NERF darts. One that I saw was accurate out to about 200 feet or more. They used it for picking off people from their 3rd floor dorm window.
I just counted them up, and somehow I managed to accumulate eighteen firearms over the years (not counting airguns).
I could come up with a specific use for each one, but really I just enjoy collecting and shooting for the most part. A lot of them I either inherited or received as gifts so I didn't go out and purchase those ones with a specific use in mind.
These are the ones that have been getting the most use over the last couple years:
Savage 11 in .223: I use this one as a wintertime target rifle, as it is inexpensive and fun to shoot. I had a 15 round magazine built for it so that I wouldn't have to take my gloves off to reload, and I put a Weaver fixed power 8x56mm scope on it as I'm usually shooting at dusk.
Ruger AR-556: This is my go-to homestead defense rifle and is also one of my most fun firearms to shoot. If something's after my chickens this is the rifle I usually grab, and I put it near my bed at night. I'm looking at getting a 1-4x or 1-6x optic for it so that it will still be good up close but I could crank up the magnification and take shots at predators that are running away through our hay field.
Glock 29: This is my "all-purpose" handgun. I own more handguns than this one, and for each specific use I think there is a better handgun out there for the job, but the Glock 29 does a lot of different jobs well enough.
S&W j-frame .38: My "sweatpants" gun, which means when I'm being a lazy slob and wearing sweatpants this is light enough not to drag them down around my ankles all the time. I can't remember the model number, but it's the airweight "bodyguard" style.
Mossberg 930: I grab this shotgun if I think it might be a bear causing all the ruckus.
I'm hopefully going to get back into hunting this year, so I'll be dusting off my Weatherby Vanguard .30-06. Also now that .22 LR is available again I need to get back into plinking. I've got a bunch of .22 handguns and rifles that I haven't been shooting near as much as I should.
Given the price for the total package, they dont seem too bad, I'd love to see one in person, they definitely look interesting, supposedly theyll be out in a couple months, but with NFA wait times being what they are I dont expect many people will actually get to take one home until 2018.
Given the price for the total package, they dont seem too bad, I'd love to see one in person, they definitely look interesting, supposedly theyll be out in a couple months, but with NFA wait times being what they are I dont expect many people will actually get to take one home until 2018.
Curious what would happen if you fired a couple mags through it, then put it back in its kydex holster.
Really cool design...current laws degrade my interest in it as it seems like a big headache if you need to smith it, but if the HPA passes (probably won't) I'll have to pick one up.
Well, to take a break from another rifle build that's been kicking my butt. I wanted to do something fun. I had picked up a 1910 Mexican Mauser receiver a little bit ago for $30 and decided I would finally do something with it. Ordered a bolt for it, and raided my buckets of spare Mauser parts to see how close I was to being able to put a gun together. The goal of this project has been to use second hand and used parts, and to keep the build as cheap as possible so that it wouldn't be taking any funds away from my other projects.
I had a .30 cal Douglass barrel I got for free from one of my customers after he botched trying to barrel his rifle himself and cut the thread extension to the minor diameter instead of the major diameter, making it useless for his rifle. Thankfully the minor diameter for his rifle was bigger than the major for this little Mauser, so I began thinking of what to chamber it in. I decided I would do something a little dumb and wanted to do it in .30-30. That brought up a whole new set of challenges since a Mauser has a flat breech face, and .30-30 headspaces off of the rim. Plus, the rim doesn't fit on the bolt face. So, the first step was to open up the bolt face to fit .30-30. From there I faced off the receiver to true it up and lapped the recoil lugs. Now, mathing time. Did my measurements and made a plan on how to get the rimmed cartridge to fit, and headspace correctly.
I got the thread extension cut and made the little donut on the breech face for the rim to set on. From there I had to mark out where the extractor cut would be. So yesterday I torqued on the barrel and gave myself and indexing mark and marked out where the extractor cut will be (sorry, forgot to take a picture of that), and made the cut. I retorqued the barrel on and today I cut the barrel down to 24", recrowned it and marked the caliber on the barrel. To match the silliness of this project I thought it would be fun to mark .30-30 in metric, so I marked it out in 7.62x51R just to screw with people.
My fun wasn't over yet though, to keep with the theme of this rifle I have lovingly named Patina, I now needed something to put it in. I didn't want to go through the hassle of getting it to hold and feed multiple rounds of .30-30. I am currently converting an 1891 Argentine Mauser from a single stack box mag to use the bottom metal and mag box from a 1903 Turkish Mauser... and it is kicking my butt and don't want two projects for me to tear my hair out over. So single shot it is, I have ordered a single shot follower for a 98 Mauser and will be fitting it into the mag well once it arrives. So now I don't need to track down bottom metal for it, but, now I won't be able to order a stock to fit it without it looking dumb. Thankfully I have a stock blank laying around. The only problem is that the stock blank had ended up warping on me, making it unusable for a lot of other projects. After doing some math I found out I can make it work with this single shot build, as long as I make the stock fairly thin. I like my stocks for sporting rifles to be more on the lightweight side anyways, so that won't be an issue. So, after fli cutting the stock to true up a surface to start laying everything out on, I laid out an offset centerline so I can still fit a buttplate and drilled out the action screw holes. Now my favorite part begins, inletting the action into the stock.
Haha, thankfully I am a gunsmith that specializes in stockmaking and custom Mausers. It will most likely take a while since I am getting ready to move next month, and working out a deal with one of my sources for 50 small ring Mauser actions for future builds. I appreciate the support though!
Quick question: US gun laws state that overall length of a weapon is with any stock unfolded and extended to it's full length. Exactly how "useable" does a stock have to be to count as a "stock"?
I finally found a project gun I've been wanting to put together. It is an old .410 double barrel. It's beat to heck, but totally functional and serviceable.
My plan is to make it into a pistol grip Mad Max style gun. The problem is, that when I trim the barrel down to 16 inches, and cut the handle down to a bird's head style grip that the overall length will be under 26 inches. I hope to convert some kind of over or under folding stock. This stock is meant to be as slim lined as possible and basically vestigial for everything but legal measurement purposes.
cuda1179 wrote: Quick question: US gun laws state that overall length of a weapon is with any stock unfolded and extended to it's full length. Exactly how "useable" does a stock have to be to count as a "stock"?
I finally found a project gun I've been wanting to put together. It is an old .410 double barrel. It's beat to heck, but totally functional and serviceable.
My plan is to make it into a pistol grip Mad Max style gun. The problem is, that when I trim the barrel down to 16 inches, and cut the handle down to a bird's head style grip that the overall length will be under 26 inches. I hope to convert some kind of over or under folding stock. This stock is meant to be as slim lined as possible and basically vestigial for everything but legal measurement purposes.
IIRC there is a way to do that without running afoul of the NFA, Mossberg just came out with a cut down pump kinda like what you describe, but it cant have anything designed to look like it can be shouldered basically and IIRC still has to be greater than 26".
Id suggest goto your local gun shop and start asking the folks behind the counter. Collectively theyll give you the answers and probably 5 or so go arounds as well
KingCracker wrote: Id suggest goto your local gun shop and start asking the folks behind the counter. Collectively theyll give you the answers and probably 5 or so go arounds as well
Way ahead of you on that. Also talked to current and former police/sheriff. Looks like my plan is a winner. At least if I can figure out a way to make a folding/collapsible stock that isn't in the way and isn't totally silly looking. My current plans (very rough plans) involve hollowing out part of the pistol grip and installing some kind of telescoping tube that can lock in place.
Frazzled wrote: Sounds like you are describing a howdah pistol, which is legal IIRC.
Well..... Yes and no really. Since I would be converting it from a pre-existing shotgun with a stock I must keep it in "shotgun" formation so to speak. In a perfect world I would have found an unassembled double-barrel receiver and made sure the barrels could also chamber 45 long colt. Then it could have been a real pistol and I wouldn't have to deal with the BS tinkering.
When I was cleaning it today, I noticed there were some very fine metal shavings on the rear of the BCG. Upon closer examination, it looks like it's shaving material off the buffer tube.
The gun shoots great, but it is fairly hard to charge - My AR pistol, I can charge that with one finger, whereas this one I need both hands and some effort even though I'm running it pretty wet.
I assumed the BCG stiffness was normal break-in (and hell, maybe it is) - but after seeing these shavings, I know at least one gunsmith hangs out here, along with a lot of AR platform people.
Is this normal wear or something awry? This is a DI, non-piston, gun.
That does not look like normal wear to me, but it may grind itself out in time, though I imagine you may find issues cycling until then or if it doesn't grind out. Something may be slightly out of proper alignment or there may be some weird tolerance stacking somewhere.
On a new note...I've recently become smitten with the idea of a FAL...but have questions.
It looks like DSA is the go-to option for these, cheaper than insanely priced $4k+ preban imports, far better quality than Century mishmashes and they make their parts in house, anyone have experience with them?
Likewise, barrel and stock options? I've been vaccilating between either an 18" fixed stock, a classic 21" fixed stock, or a para congo 18" with folding stock. The folding stock looks very solid but I have no idea how comfortable/functional it is, and it appears to require changes to the recoil system and I have no idea what that entails.
I know DSA has very basic inexpensive "Voyager" fixed stock models in 16", 18" and 21" iterations for about $1k. They also have more expensive options with more milling, better finish and sights, bipod cuts, and more receiver and barrel types, along with folding stock options that range up to $2k but mostly seem to be $1400-1700. Anyone have any thoughts in those regards?
Vaktathi wrote: On a new note...I've recently become smitten with the idea of a FAL...but have questions.
It looks like DSA is the go-to option for these, cheaper than insanely priced $4k+ preban imports, far better quality than Century mishmashes and they make their parts in house, anyone have experience with them?
Likewise, barrel and stock options? I've been vaccilating between either an 18" fixed stock, a classic 21" fixed stock, or a para congo 18" with folding stock. The folding stock looks very solid but I have no idea how comfortable/functional it is, and it appears to require changes to the recoil system and I have no idea what that entails.
I know DSA has very basic inexpensive "Voyager" fixed stock models in 16", 18" and 21" iterations for about $1k. They also have more expensive options with more milling, better finish and sights, bipod cuts, and more receiver and barrel types, along with folding stock options that range up to $2k but mostly seem to be $1400-1700. Anyone have any thoughts in those regards?
Ill just leave this here for you Vak, m'kay?
STAY AWAY FROM CENTURY ARMS FAL. Complete and utter crap. Even HiPoints look down on them....
Haha, yeah I figured a Century would be a no-go. I'm very leery of US made rebuilds of foreign guns in general, but was looking at DSA since they make everything in house and seem to have a mostly good reputation.
I was hoping for one of HMG's STG recreations for my next gun, but those are still MIA, so it's increaselingly looking like it might be a FAL.
Normally I would agree with the Century hate. I hate them with the white hot passion of a thousand burning suns but their FALs are not all bad. My Century L1A1 was originally a Canadian sportter L1A1, the only thing Century about it is that it was imported by them. My metric pattern FAL is made by Century and has been a flawless bullet eating machine. I have heard bad things about the Century C1A1s though so stay away from them. Even a broken clock can be right twice a day. I've heard good and bad things about DSA, but the bad is mostly their customer service sucking like a black hole. They make a good product as far as I know.
If you find an L1A1 with a stupid sportter stock on it and no muzzle break, and it has "made in Canada" on the lower right side of the receiver, you got a really good L1A1 there. Don't be deterred by the Century import mark, those are fairly sought after FALs. Some of them are milled out to take inch pattern magazines to make it more authentic, others are left as metrics with all the other parts being inch pattern. Most importantly they are built on an Imbel receiver which are arguably the best FAL receiver manufacturer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, as far as the side folders. The Para is a really good FAL if you plan to keep it stored, carried with you, or you just like the look of them. The stocks lock up tight and sturdy so they are made well. DSA does make a conversion kit that moves the recoil assembly up underneath the dust cover so you can install a para lower trigger housing and para stock. The regular FAL has its recoil system running through the stock, that's why you can't just throw a para stock onto a standard FAL.
Another note, if you buy a standard DSA FAL like the voyager and you plan to take the stock off to replace it with something like the Magpul stock, do yourself a favor and buy a FAL armorers tool. The recoil spring in the butt stock will launch into space or take your face off when it shoots out the back without it.
As for what rifle would I get. I would look at the DSA SA58 18" traditional fixed stock. If you just want an FAL for fun save your shoulder and get the fixed stock. The 16-18 barrels are plenty effective to get most of the use out of a 308 so save the weight there. You can add rails or what not to your heart's content after that.
FWIW I have a sidefolder AK, which looks like so, stock:
I think it looks pretty cool, but if I could go back in time I definitely would not get it again. As it turned out I'm not regularly jumping out of a plane or getting into a tank so I kind of wish I had a comfortable, adjustable stock instead. It was literally the first thing I replaced after having it a while.
Okay, So I'm looking over my Gun shopping list, trying to prioritize what I want first:
Glock 23 (to go with my glock 23 rifle conversion)
Glock 19 (to go with my Sub 2000)
Some kind of AK to use up my 3,000 rounds of Tula ammo
A VEPR chambered in 7.62x54R to share ammo with my Mosin.
Mossberg 500 in .410 (wife teacher)
Two Ruger 10-22's for the kids when they get older
Bolt action rifle in .308 to share ammo with my HK91
Taurus Tracker .357
LOL, Yeah, I'd LOVE to get them all. Just wondering what to get first. I'm leaning towards the 10-22's. I found a good deal on them, $169 with free shipping.
Other than that, the Glock 23 and Taurus Tracker are sticking out.
Anybody else catch this DPM video from Forgotten Weapons?
Beautiful! beautiful!
I'm not a gun owner, and my primary interest is military history and old school guns made before 1945, but I do like to pop up on this thread from time to time.
But yeah, the DPM is very retro/steampunk and it would kill me to discover that one of my fellow dakka members owns one of these...
Is that new? Which 10/22 is it? Those are darned nice prices. We have a few at the house, kids love em. Upgraded with Volquartsen parts, sweet lil rifles.
Side note, took out an AR15 Pistol (10.5" barrel, carbine gas system) to the range in 12 degree weather after work on Saturday. Only put 18 rnds down range, two stoppages where the BCG was stuck forward with light primer strikes. Thinking it was too much crud in the chamber that didnt allow the BCG to close fully forward and or some handloads that werent up to spec. Stripped it down and cleaned it, all snap caps cycled perfectly through it. Will have to try again later when not faced with 18+" of snow on the horizon.
cuda1179 wrote: Yeah, that's a brand spanking new 10/22. It has an 18.5 inch blued barrel and a polymer stock. one 10-round mag.
This lil guy?:
They make great base builds. Lots of stocks and options available for the 10/22.
Where are you finding it for that price?
That's the one. I found it at CenterfireSystems. THey have it listed for $179, but I have a couple $10 off redemption codes to use up.
Whats the transfer fee at your FFL?
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, what is the general consensus on the Windicator 357 2" revolver. We have one used for $150 that Im on the fence about getting. Looks lightly used, timing seems good, lockup is great. Barrel "crown" isnt sharp. I dont know anything about the German manufacturer though. Wont be an EDC, just something to demonstrate with students.
Methinks the ARX is gonna get an SBR stamp at some point and a VFG as soon as the lower rail that goes over the grenade launcher attachment comes in the mail, the FAL will likely just get a railed top cover.
There is an old mid-1800 pistol that was basically a revolver that also had a 20-gauge shotgun shell in the center of the cylinder.
If someone today were to make something similar, but double action with 7 rounds of .357 mag and a 20-gauge or .410 in the center, how many people would be interested?
It's an odd design, which means it'd be bought by odd people. But you could probably successfully market it as a home-defense weapon, or with a large enough community of buyers set up specialist shooting competitions for it- combination target and skeet or something like that.
I might be interested, but just for the weird factor mainly. Those old combo pistols come up on auctions fairly regularly but obviously arent generally as readily shootable. They're also rather big and awkward to operate though a more moderb reimagining may help fix that. Forgotten Weapons has done some great vids on them.
Well the stars aligned and I acquired something new (or will in a few weeks) for me birfday from the wife. Burned out another .22 so we she got me this. https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/sw22-victory
Have not shot yet but a few notes: *surprisingly heavy, like full size all steel 1911 heavy. Its markedly heavier then the Browning its going to replace (its worn out after about 35,000 rounds through it). *The grip panels feel almost like cloth. Very comfortable. *The fiber optic sights are nice. My M&Ps have them so I wanted similar on the .22 (especially as I have problems with normal sights now). The rear sights are fiber optic too. Thats... different. I may paint them black to have the same sight picture as the M&Ps. *It has some weird kind of double trigger. Rack it and it appears to have a second trike capability. Could be good considering crappy rimfire rounds.
Vaktathi wrote: If registered MG's weren't so ludicroussly expensive I'd love to run around with one of those guys.
That an MG08 is in the same auction in the same price range is...almost tempting if I weren't saving for a condo down payment.
Far be it for me to influence your decision making process, and I don't know what part of the USA you're from, but that condo could be knocked down by an earthquake, or blown away by a tornado, or one of those Florida sink holes could swallow it up, or rattlesnakes could get it, or angry Trump supporters could occupy it, or something...
Is it wise to invest in a condo in these uncertain times?
Vaktathi wrote: If registered MG's weren't so ludicroussly expensive I'd love to run around with one of those guys.
That an MG08 is in the same auction in the same price range is...almost tempting if I weren't saving for a condo down payment.
Far be it for me to influence your decision making process, and I don't know what part of the USA you're from, but that condo could be knocked down by an earthquake, or blown away by a tornado, or one of those Florida sink holes could swallow it up, or rattlesnakes could get it, or angry Trump supporters could occupy it, or something...
Is it wise to invest in a condo in these uncertain times?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Apologies for banging the drum again on pan magazines, but after seeing this video, my love affair with the pan magazine continues.
How cool is this gun:
Saw that video earlier, cool gun but I would hate to do all the loading
There is an old mid-1800 pistol that was basically a revolver that also had a 20-gauge shotgun shell in the center of the cylinder.
If someone today were to make something similar, but double action with 7 rounds of .357 mag and a 20-gauge or .410 in the center, how many people would be interested?
Not a lot due to the weight of making a top break revolver capable of withstanding the pressures of both 357 and 410. The MP412REX was a financial disaster as well as banned in the US, and it could just barely handle 357. Load a .357 with one cylender full of rock salt, you'll get the same increase in home defense without the added possibility of blowing your own hand off when the pistol explodes. A common problem with the actual LeMat.
I finally bit the bullet on one of the guns on my buy list.
Cheaper Than Dirt had a special running on Glock 23 pistols. $399, free shipping. In addition I had a 10% off my next purchase coupon, and another $20 off my next purchase from my mail order catalog. Glocks aren't my favorite, but for $340 I can learn to like it.
What is everyone's opinion of AR-15's chambered in 7.62x39? Some people love them, others hate them and claim they are all jam-o-matics.
I've built an upper, but never built a lower. I am probably gonna have to pop in here in a few weeks asking how to install a buffer tube, LPK, etc.
Man I love the look of that though.
the lower isnt too bad, I did mine over a couple hours on a pals couch while watching cartoons with just a punch set and a screwdriver, Ive seen people do them in 20 mins flat. Just dont lose detents and springs
cuda1179 wrote:I finally bit the bullet on one of the guns on my buy list.
Cheaper Than Dirt had a special running on Glock 23 pistols. $399, free shipping. In addition I had a 10% off my next purchase coupon, and another $20 off my next purchase from my mail order catalog. Glocks aren't my favorite, but for $340 I can learn to like it.
Not a bad deal at all.
What is everyone's opinion of AR-15's chambered in 7.62x39? Some people love them, others hate them and claim they are all jam-o-matics.
The problem is mags and the 7.62x39 cartridge, they taper too much to work quite right in the long tall STANAG magwell and they have feeding issues. Rifles like the CMMG Mutant that use AK mags tend to work a lot better. HMG is coming out with a heavily spaced 7.62x39 STANAG mag later this year that may also work better, but will also be relatively large and made to look like an STG mag.
cuda1179 wrote: What is everyone's opinion of AR-15's chambered in 7.62x39?
I think they look bad - like someone bent an AR15 mag.
I don't really have an opinion other than aesthetics, but that's a big one for me. If I'm going to shoot 7.62x39, I shoot my AK, just as Mikhail Kalashnikov would have wanted.
What is everyone's opinion of AR-15's chambered in 7.62x39? Some people love them, others hate them and claim they are all jam-o-matics.
I think the main barrier to entry there is actually the ammo.
Think about the problems that people report with shooting polymer or lacquer-coated steel-cased 5.56 through AR15s. Now, consider that almost all of the 7.62x39 ammunition available is some combination of steel cased, lacquer coated, polymer coated, or corrosive. Sure, you can buy new US production brass-cased ammo but it's going to be very expensive.
If I wanted a heavier hitting round that used expensive ammunition, I'd look at 300 Blackout and buy a reloading set.
I've built an upper, but never built a lower. I am probably gonna have to pop in here in a few weeks asking how to install a buffer tube, LPK, etc.
Man I love the look of that though.
Possibly because I have the proper tools and experience, I can build a lower in well under 10 minutes. Much less if Im using a drop-in trigger. Ar's are by far the easiest guns I work on.
I finally got my AR10 back. The upper was out of spec and was replaced.
I got it zeroed in and finally set up the way I like it - I was shopping for parts while it was being serviced.
I went with a Nikon Prostaff 3-9x 40 scope on a PEPR mount. I regret getting the PEPR mount because it is very heavy, but as a friend says, heavy is steady. For my next build I'm going to get a Aero Precision ultralight, but anyway. I added a little lightweight angled fore grip because I don't like holding the magwell.
I replaced my garbage UTG bipod with... a slightly better UTG bipod. It's lighter and not so tall so I'll stick with it for now.
I'm sticking with the Magpul STR because I have very short arms and it fits me well. It's got a 20" stainless steel barrel, and I added a mount for my gopro. I also added a M4-72 Severe-Duty Compensator partially to reduce the recoil a bit, but mostly because it looked cool, and I also added a limbsaver pad.
Now it barks like a .50 and feels like a .22. I'm happy.
Right on the heels of Iowa legalizing suppressors, the governor just signed a bill that, among other things, legalized SBS and SBRs - so it's probably going to be a very short timeframe before I am in here again.
The hardest part of building the lower, IMO, was installing the sprint and detent for the pivot pin. The MOE grip was also super tight - I couldn't get it on at all until I sanded the inside of it down a little. The rest of it was pretty easy, it took me about 3 hours from unboxing the parts to finishing it.
Longer term, since SBRs and suppressors are now legal in Iowa, I want to change it to a 10.5" barrel with a suppressor that fits inside the handguard. I have some paperwork to fill out.
A hunting friend of mine passed away last fall. I bought his Ruger Redhawk .44 mag from his widow, who is raising money to move closer to her family. I wanted his T/C .25-06 a little more for the cool factor, but I didn't own a big honking revolver and I've got bunches of hunting rifles. Honestly I just wanted a keepsake.
I need to stop being lazy and get all the grease out of my Sako M39.
Spacemanvic wrote: Possibly because I have the proper tools and experience, I can build a lower in well under 10 minutes. Much less if Im using a drop-in trigger. Ar's are by far the easiest guns I work on.
As a side note, while I doubt I'll ever be able to do it in 10 minutes, there are definitely some tools I didn't have that I just ordered for next time - specifically, a pivot pin installation tool and a roll pin starter punch set. Any other suggestions?
I'm a farmer so I need one for the old vermin. I've a .22 rifle for mr fox and a shotgun for the rest! I also have a World War One Lee Enfield my uncle bought me for my 21st birthday. When he bought me it he also bought for himself the World War One German Mauser rifle. When he passed away he left me it so I now have the pair. They don't do much. Truth is none of the guns do much. I just kind of have them locked in the gun safe.
Knockagh wrote: I'm a farmer so I need one for the old vermin. I've a .22 rifle for mr fox and a shotgun for the rest! I also have a World War One Lee Enfield my uncle bought me for my 21st birthday. When he bought me it he also bought for himself the World War One German Mauser rifle. When he passed away he left me it so I now have the pair. They don't do much. Truth is none of the guns do much. I just kind of have them locked in the gun safe.
Well take 'em to a range sometime and put them to some use
Spacemanvic wrote: Possibly because I have the proper tools and experience, I can build a lower in well under 10 minutes. Much less if Im using a drop-in trigger. Ar's are by far the easiest guns I work on.
As a side note, while I doubt I'll ever be able to do it in 10 minutes, there are definitely some tools I didn't have that I just ordered for next time - specifically, a pivot pin installation tool and a roll pin starter punch set. Any other suggestions?
I'm no AR wizard, all I used was the punch set, but if you're gonna use a traditional front sight and handguard on an upper at any point, there's a "cheater bar" AR handguard tool that you can get for loke $15 that really makes installing and removing that way easier.
Ouze wrote: specifically, a pivot pin installation tool and a roll pin starter punch set. Any other suggestions?
Yeah, that pivot pin tool is a must have. I tried doing it without one on my Blackout build and it just pissed me off so I went over to my brother's house to use his. The roll pin starter punches are nice too and if you plan on building more you should probably pick some up.
An aluminium upper receiver vise clock is nice too and practically a necessity with all the non-standard receivers out there now, but they aren't cheap.
Ouze wrote: Are aluminum ones better? I have plastic ones that seem to be holding up OK.
Yes, they are better and worth it if you plan on building more rifles. Since they secure the rifle using the takedown lugs, I trust it way more that the polymer clamshell style.
Fired the first 100 rounds through it. Accuracy is good, I had a single FTF on the first mag. However, frequently the trigger doesn't reset - I pull, it shoots, it cycles, it feeds, but trigger stays depressed - i have to nudge the trigger forward with my finger and I hear a click. Did I screw up installing the A.) trigger, B.) hammer, or C.) disconnector? It doesn't always do this, but it does it quite a lot - at least half my shots.
I made some gentle sandpaper passes where the disconnector catches the trigger - it felt rough. I can't reproduce it now (and I was able to pretty easily before) so I think it's fixed.
Spacemanvic wrote: Possibly because I have the proper tools and experience, I can build a lower in well under 10 minutes. Much less if Im using a drop-in trigger. Ar's are by far the easiest guns I work on.
As a side note, while I doubt I'll ever be able to do it in 10 minutes, there are definitely some tools I didn't have that I just ordered for next time - specifically, a pivot pin installation tool and a roll pin starter punch set. Any other suggestions?
Sorry Ouze, been running around lately, just checked in.
When installing the pivot pin, I have a trick. I put the spring, then use a finishing nail to compress the spring as far down as I can. Then I use a pushpin (even a thick safety pin), and push it in the wee hole that is on the side of the cavity that the spring goes into. I keep the pin pushed in the hole as I draw the nail out, trapping the compressed spring. The pressure of the spring pushing against the nail keeps the spring from flying out. I then drop the detent into the hole, slide the front pivot pin into place, then pull the pushpin out. The spring flies forward, the detent clicks into place, then I slide the pivot pin in then slide it out to the point the detent keeps it trap. I then leave it in the open position until I drop the upper into the lower.
when getting the punch set, make sure you get a set that has steel as well as brass punches. I also get a small 4oz hammer as well as a a set of needle nose pliers. A rubber mallet is a good idea too. Also the Wheeler Engineering Delta Series AR-15 Armorer's Bench Block. Makes working on the lower receiver a helluva lot easier to work with. Black electrical tape: when installing the bolt catch paddle pin, you'll want a bit of tape on the receiver so as to not mark up the receiver while holding the pin in place.
When putting in the trigger guard, always support the part of the lower "ear". This part can break easy. I use a mini C-clamp to press the part into place instead of trying to hammer it into place.
Ouze wrote: specifically, a pivot pin installation tool and a roll pin starter punch set. Any other suggestions?
Yeah, that pivot pin tool is a must have. I tried doing it without one on my Blackout build and it just pissed me off so I went over to my brother's house to use his. The roll pin starter punches are nice too and if you plan on building more you should probably pick some up.
An aluminum upper receiver vise clock is nice too and practically a necessity with all the non-standard receivers out there now, but they aren't cheap.
I've steered away from a block on the upper receiver. I use what the military uses: barrel vise blocks. The upper receiver is essentially an empty can. It is pretty easier to warp it out of spec. When removing or installing a barrel, you are sometimes working at 40-70 foot pounds torque, depending on which mon-keigh installed the barrel in the first place and if they used anti-seize at all. I usually use a piece of junk rubber hose to protect the barrel when I lock the barrel vise on it. But even if the barrel rolls in the vise block, a little kroil will remove the aluminum streaks from the steel barrel.
Fired the first 100 rounds through it. Accuracy is good, I had a single FTF on the first mag. However, frequently the trigger doesn't reset - I pull, it shoots, it cycles, it feeds, but trigger stays depressed - i have to nudge the trigger forward with my finger and I hear a click. Did I screw up installing the A.) trigger, B.) hammer, or C.) disconnector? It doesn't always do this, but it does it quite a lot - at least half my shots.
It's either the disco having a bur or flash, the disco spring installed upside down, the trigger spring installed upside down, or your pins arent being kept in place and walking a little with recoil.
Do this for me and tell me what your results are:
1. Remove the magazine, and clear the chamber.
2. With your finger OFF the trigger, charge your rifle.
3. Put the safety in the SAFE position.
4. Squeeze the trigger.
-The hammer should NOT be released.
5. Remove your finger from the trigger.
6. Put the safety in the FIRE position.
7. Squeeze the trigger, and HOLD IT DOWN. Do NOT release pressure from the trigger.
-The hammer should be released.
8. While maintaining pressure on the trigger, charge your rifle.
9. Release pressure from the trigger.
-You should hear an audible "click" as the disconnect disengages, and the sear engages the hammer.
10. Squeeze the trigger.
-The hammer should be released.
If you don't hear this click, and the step 10 does not result in the hammer releasing... your disconnect/hammer connection is flawed.
A malfunctioning FCG can be a dangerous thing. If it begins to double fire or go FA, ATF will love you tenderly, long-time.
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Ouze wrote: I made some gentle sandpaper passes where the disconnector catches the trigger - it felt rough. I can't reproduce it now (and I was able to pretty easily before) so I think it's fixed.
Cool, maybe it was just a bur on the disco. Can happen with MIM parts. I'd still go through the trouble shooting JIC.
As an aside, took the wife unit out shooting for our 19th anniversary. She blew through 200 rds of 22LR and 300 rds of LC 556. She had a blast shooting our daughters Ruger MKIII pistol and the AR pistol and one of the AR carbines. When I first gave her a loaded Pmag, she said 30rds was probably enough. About a minute later, she asked for another mag, then another, then another LOL. I did warn her the AR likes to eat, alot!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also before I forget, use this excellent guide on maintenance of your AR rifle:
You're allowed to shoulder them again, and it's not a redesign that creates a SBR.
“an NFA firearm has not necessarily been made when the device is not reconfigured for use as a shoulder stock – even if the attached firearm happens to be fired from the shoulder. To the extent that the January 2015 Open Letter implied or has been construed to hold that incidental, sporadic, or situational “use” of an arm-brace (in its original approved configuration) equipped firearm from a firing position at or near the shoulder was sufficient to constitute “redesign,” such interpretations are incorrect and not consistent with ATF’s interpretation of the statute or the manner in which it has historically been enforced.”
One important thing to note about the ATF letter is that it only applies to braces that do not permanently affix to the firearm.
Friction fit or set screw attachment seems fine, but any kind of red loctite/weld/bolt/whatever that permanently attaches it seems to be a no-no if you want to shoulder the thing.
I should be picking up my first pistol this winter
Probably a cheapo model 21 smith and wesson 9mm~ - not sure yet. Ideally I'll pick up one for my SO and figure out which glock or sig I'd want for myself
Nostromodamus wrote: One important thing to note about the ATF letter is that it only applies to braces that do not permanently affix to the firearm.
Friction fit or set screw attachment seems fine, but any kind of red loctite/weld/bolt/whatever that permanently attaches it seems to be a no-no if you want to shoulder the thing.
To be frank, this feels to twitchy to spend money one way or another. While the pragmatic liability is deminimis, the potential liability is higher.
Best to just buy a Venezuelan AK out of the back of a van.
Nostromodamus wrote: One important thing to note about the ATF letter is that it only applies to braces that do not permanently affix to the firearm.
Friction fit or set screw attachment seems fine, but any kind of red loctite/weld/bolt/whatever that permanently attaches it seems to be a no-no if you want to shoulder the thing.
To be frank, this feels to twitchy to spend money one way or another. While the pragmatic liability is deminimis, the potential liability is higher.
Best to just buy a Venezuelan AK out of the back of a van.
Ideally they would just ditch the NFA altogether and we wouldn't have these ridiculous situations.
I've got four rifles with 16 inch barrels (two in 5.56 and one in 7.62/.308 and one in .22lr). I'm not sure I would want shorter. Loss of velocity/accuracy would outweigh the cool factor for me at this point. The 7.62/.308 is REALLY loud as is (and has a very cool fireball of a muzzle flash at dusk!)
I would like to get a suppressor or two without the paperwork/wait/extra cost though.
Short barrels are rarther situational, they make more sense on things like 7.62x39 or 300 Blackout or PCC's than 5.56 or 308, but if you're not expecting to shoot farther than 100-200m it generally wont be a huge issue either way in terms of hitting targets, and often shorter barrels can be more accurate than longer ones (as they experience less flex while firing, particularly lighter barrels) though obviously dont get the same velocity and range. The big thing is muzzle blast and, with 5.56, the super shorty barrels can lose too much velocity for effective fragmentation. That said, I'm sure as hell gonna SBR my ARX100 (having a barrel you can swap with no tools is just too cool) and still work on the SBR AR project I started some months ago, I've got 4 other 16" barrel 5.56 rifles to play with that will remain so.
I'd be surprised to see anything happen with the NFA at all. I think that the current administration and congress have wasted their thunder on other issues to get something like that through, though I'd like to be wrong on this issue.
Ouze wrote: There is a marked loss of velocity when you go under 11.5" in 5.56, no question. It's just a fun range toy for me.
My go-to for home defense is actually a shotgun with buckshot.
Old School! My wing master is so long I don't have to actually shoot. From the bedroom in the back of the house I smack them at the front door with the barrel 30 yards away.
Plus I can use it to pole vault with and the furniture is so huge I can float down a river on it.
Ouze wrote: There is a marked loss of velocity when you go under 11.5" in 5.56, no question. It's just a fun range toy for me.
My go-to for home defense is actually a shotgun with buckshot.
The loss of velocity is 300fps between a 16" barrel and a 10.5" barrel in 5.56.
The AR pistol is a nice range toy as well as a great PDW.
Took my wife out shooting last week for our anniversary. She blew through 200rds of 22LR and 300rds LC 5.56. I had her shooting our daughter's Ruger MkII Target as well as a 16" AR rifle and a 10.5" AR pistol.
The 16" rifle is set up with an A2 fh, 12" FF rail, Magpul AFG, Mako BUIS, and a TRU Dot RDS. The 10.5" pistol is set up with a carbine length gas system, a Krinkov flash suppressor can, 11" FF keymod hand guard, maxwell grip, Troy BUIS, Spartan micro laser and Surefire Scout light.
She liked shooting the AR pistol the best. The lighter weight as well as ease in followup shots is what she appreciated.
I built the pistol using the carbine length gas system because the pistol length gas system is so brutal on both the shooter as well as the BCG. I also added the Krinkov can to address 1.) fireball and 2.) muzzle climb and 3.) recoil impulse and 4.) noise.
I had her shooting torso silhouette targets at 50, 75 and 100 yd ranges. The pistol performed flawlessly at all three ranges, as well it should at such close ranges. Its meant as a bedroom gun as well as truck gun. The loss of velocity is a non issue because 1.) range toy, 2.) PDW - use will be well below 300yds.
My go-to home defense weapon is the AR pistol. Or the Mossberg 500, or the 1911, or the Glock 26....If I'm down to the sharp sticks, things are fooked
+1. Best combination of reliability, capacity, power, and maneuverability. 11.5" barrel AR pistol actually makes a shorter silhouette when shouldered (for me anyway) than my G19 when properly extended. 590 protrudes almost a foot farther...10x more difficult to maneuver.
If they take suppressors off of the NFA I'll be getting a bunch of them. Noise and blast usually bother me a lot more than kick.
I'll probably get one eventually regardless, but it they're on the NFA it will probably just be one or two that I swap between various firearms and not one for each of my most commonly used firearms. Part of this is me assuming that if they are taken off the NFA the price will go down significantly.
I'm selling the front sight/gas block thingy off my Ruger AR-556 to a guy from another forum. I've got a Faxon barrel that I want to put on my Ruger. I have no idea what I'm doing, but my standard way of learning is to just go for it, break everything and then learn how everything works as I try to fix the mess I've created.
Sign me up for a suppressor when they become a non NFA item as well.
As Iowa just legalized short barreled shotguns and rifles I'm tempted to get one. I always liked those UZI's with the multi-fold underfolder stocks. I know I'd look like an 80's gangsta, but you can still find parts kits for $150. Hard to complain at that price.
cuda1179 wrote: Sign me up for a suppressor when they become a non NFA item as well.
As Iowa just legalized short barreled shotguns and rifles I'm tempted to get one. I always liked those UZI's with the multi-fold underfolder stocks. I know I'd look like an 80's gangsta, but you can still find parts kits for $150. Hard to complain at that price.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: If they take suppressors off of the NFA I'll be getting a bunch of them. Noise and blast usually bother me a lot more than kick.
I'll probably get one eventually regardless, but it they're on the NFA it will probably just be one or two that I swap between various firearms and not one for each of my most commonly used firearms. Part of this is me assuming that if they are taken off the NFA the price will go down significantly.
I'm selling the front sight/gas block thingy off my Ruger AR-556 to a guy from another forum. I've got a Faxon barrel that I want to put on my Ruger. I have no idea what I'm doing, but my standard way of learning is to just go for it, break everything and then learn how everything works as I try to fix the mess I've created.
Armorers wrench is what you seek, You'll get into all sorts of trouble with one.
cuda1179 wrote: Sign me up for a suppressor when they become a non NFA item as well.
As Iowa just legalized short barreled shotguns and rifles I'm tempted to get one. I always liked those UZI's with the multi-fold underfolder stocks. I know I'd look like an 80's gangsta, but you can still find parts kits for $150. Hard to complain at that price.
I'm going to be forced to go back to blasting at fox with my shotgun while my AR is down.
Hopefully my flock is small enough this year that they won't be as big of a draw to the predators. Also there won't be any goats tearing down my fences, so that's another thing in my favor.
cuda1179 wrote: Sign me up for a suppressor when they become a non NFA item as well.
As Iowa just legalized short barreled shotguns and rifles I'm tempted to get one. I always liked those UZI's with the multi-fold underfolder stocks. I know I'd look like an 80's gangsta, but you can still find parts kits for $150. Hard to complain at that price.
Do it, I love my SBR Uzi. Buy a Mckay Enterprises fully welded receiver, then you will need a semi auto barrel (they are different than the full autos), semi auto sear, and you will need to have a block welded in front of the selector lever inside the grip stick. Unfortunately that last part is a legal matter and needs to be done per the ATF, even if you are using a semi auto only receiver and the gun physically cant go full auto. If you look hard enough you can find converted semi auto grip sticks around with a semi auto sear and the block already welded in place. another thing to pay attention to is the grip pin... The full autos use a 8mm pin to hold the grip to the receiver, the semi autos grip stick uses a 9mm. My full auto grip stick was messed up so I found a semi auto one and used my friends drill press to fit the 9mm pin, works perfectly.
Building an Uzi is definitely a big project. It took me little over a year to fully finish mine, waiting for parts and what not. In the end it cost me around $1300 for parts, cerakote, and engraving. Still cheaper than what a IMI Uzi goes for, but a lot more than a Vector or who ever else makes Uzi clones. However, most Uzi clones are not reliable so....
I've never really understood all the AR-15 hype out there. But I got to spend the day playing around with the M4 today and I admit it was quite a bit of fun to shoot.
So I might just end up getting an AR somewhere down the road after all.
They're fun and have a near infinite variety of Lego-like accessories, and, barring the T-handle and lefties, are rather ergonomic to shoot.
Now's the perfect time to get one, good ones can be had at prices as low as they'll ever be as a result of election hype fears collapsing demand when supply was at an all time high, same for accessories and mags.
Any decent ones that shoot 9mm? I don't really feel like a new caliber and these an easy beast to feed. Alternatively what would you need to convert a normal 5.56 M4 into a 9mm (and obviously be able to change back)?
Future War Cultist wrote:I'm kinda jell that you Americans can own guns without having to explain yourself to the police or running the risk of jail time.
Any decent ones that shoot 9mm? I don't really feel like a new caliber and these an easy beast to feed. Alternatively what would you need to convert a normal 5.56 M4 into a 9mm (and obviously be able to change back)?
9mm AR's are somewhat weird, ostensibly all you need is an upper, but there's no real standard, and lots of them have had lots of issues, particularly with fcg pin breakage (blowback pressure impacting the hammer) and mag issues. I've heard the best things about Quarter Circle 10, but much beyond that I'm not sure. There are definitely good ones out there, but there's a bit more to be aware of with them too.
Chris Bartocci (former Colt technical specialist) on YouTube has some excellent vids on 9mm AR's and their history and what to look for.
Frazzled wrote: Any decent ones that shoot 9mm? I don't really feel like a new caliber and these an easy beast to feed. Alternatively what would you need to convert a normal 5.56 M4 into a 9mm (and obviously be able to change back)?
The real problem with this is a 9mm upper only is around $350-400. At that point you're better off just buying a regular AR15.
.223 is really cheap right now and while no one can predict the future I think it's going to be that way for a few years. This is probably the best possible time to get in.
Alternately, you can get a M&P 15-22 for about $450 and have the same form factor and accessory options.
d-usa wrote: I've never really understood all the AR-15 hype out there. But I got to spend the day playing around with the M4 today and I admit it was quite a bit of fun to shoot.
So I might just end up getting an AR somewhere down the road after all.
I love mine, and they are a lot of fun.
A couple weekends ago my daughter had a friend over, and one of the things we did was shoot a bit. Had a 'regular' .22 and our M4 style .22. After ensuring the kids had safety basics down with the 'regular' rifle, they each burnt through about 3 mags on the M4 style, and LOVED it.
Future War Cultist wrote: I'm kinda jell that you Americans can own guns without having to explain yourself to the police or running the risk of jail time.
I wish I could buy run-of-the-mill cold medication without having to show my ID. We all have to put up with different sets of nonsense.
That sounds like a really fun outing, CptJake!
For a long time I liked rapid-fire plinking of cans and reactive targets with semi-auto firearms, but I couldn't afford to do it very often. Now that I'm older and have money for ammo I find myself more and more drawn to single-shot rifles and trying to shoot the smallest groups I can.
CptJake wrote: We also went kayaking on the river that is a border to our property and rode some of our horses that day.
Finished up with a cook out and a bonfire (made s'mores!).
Fun day.
Sounds like a day of days
The boy is the son of a good friend of my wife. They are stationed up in the DC area and the kid was down here visiting his grand parents for Spring Break.
The BEST part of the day was hosting the grand parents for the cook out. The grand father puts 'the world's most interesting man' to shame. He was a soldier fighting Castro's guerrillas in Cuba, escaped when they lost. Made it to the US via Mexico. Went back for the Bay of Pigs, got captured and spent a couple years in a Cuban prison, got released and came back to the US and joined our Army. Did multiple tours in Vietnam, El Salvador, and other places, and had some fantastic stories. We have been many of the same places he had, just several years later. He and his wife (also from Cuba) are just wonderful, kind, patriotic folks.
And he like to shoot too! Hoping to have him over in the near future to pop some caps!
d-usa wrote: I've never really understood all the AR-15 hype out there. But I got to spend the day playing around with the M4 today and I admit it was quite a bit of fun to shoot.
So I might just end up getting an AR somewhere down the road after all.
I love mine, and they are a lot of fun.
A couple weekends ago my daughter had a friend over, and one of the things we did was shoot a bit. Had a 'regular' .22 and our M4 style .22. After ensuring the kids had safety basics down with the 'regular' rifle, they each burnt through about 3 mags on the M4 style, and LOVED it.
Pics from the event below:
Spoiler:
Daughter spotting for a friend:
Making some minor adjustments:
Kids with the fruit of their labors:
That is AWESOME Cap! I like to teach kids firearm safety whenever I can. The thing is to keep it fun and safe. The best way to keep a healthy 2A environment is to teach the next generation how to safely and responsibly use a firearm. The worst is when we keep the guns hidden or don't teach them the proper handling of firearms: thats when accidents happen.
CptJake wrote: We also went kayaking on the river that is a border to our property and rode some of our horses that day.
Finished up with a cook out and a bonfire (made s'mores!).
Fun day.
Sounds like a day of days
The boy is the son of a good friend of my wife. They are stationed up in the DC area and the kid was down here visiting his grand parents for Spring Break.
The BEST part of the day was hosting the grand parents for the cook out. The grand father puts 'the world's most interesting man' to shame. He was a soldier fighting Castro's guerrillas in Cuba, escaped when they lost. Made it to the US via Mexico. Went back for the Bay of Pigs, got captured and spent a couple years in a Cuban prison, got released and came back to the US and joined our Army. Did multiple tours in Vietnam, El Salvador, and other places, and had some fantastic stories. We have been many of the same places he had, just several years later. He and his wife (also from Cuba) are just wonderful, kind, patriotic folks.
And he like to shoot too! Hoping to have him over in the near future to pop some caps!
Frazzled wrote: Any decent ones that shoot 9mm? I don't really feel like a new caliber and these an easy beast to feed. Alternatively what would you need to convert a normal 5.56 M4 into a 9mm (and obviously be able to change back)?
The real problem with this is a 9mm upper only is around $350-400. At that point you're better off just buying a regular AR15.
.223 is really cheap right now and while no one can predict the future I think it's going to be that way for a few years. This is probably the best possible time to get in.
Alternately, you can get a M&P 15-22 for about $450 and have the same form factor and accessory options.
Frazzled could also get into reloading, which makes 223 pretty darn cheap to shoot
OR, he could get into a Just Right Carbine in 9MM, or even cheaper still a HiPoint carbine in 9MM. HiPoint's are the modern day equivalent of the Saturday Night Special, but their carbines are surprisingly well built.
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Vaktathi wrote: I'm still trying to wrap my head around that, never thought I'd see AR's from big names that cheap
Now is the time to buy for sure in general. The Beretta ARX I just picked up was a $1700 gun 8 months ago...I picked it up for $1100 a month ago.
Saw a 16" 1/7 Melonited barrel for $75 last week. The Salad Days are upon us!
Damn M4 qualification today. Practice round: 29/30 shots in the 5 ring. Pre-qualification: 29/30 shots in the 5 ring. Qualification round: 24/30 in the 5 ring. At least all my rounds went on the target.
Po po (especially city) are notorious for lax shooting requirements. Some of them aren't shooters and have terrible trigger discipline. Granted the job requires more than knowing how to shoot, but carrying a gun is a commitment, no matter who you are.
So D, how may meters to target and what positions? My wife shot like that at 100 meters against a torso silhouette first time out, but I got her to center of mass before the day was done with both AR carbine and pistol.
Not to derail this thread, or bash members of law enforcement, but a while back I was reading an article that many police departments now have a required IQ range for applicants. Too smart or too dumb and you can't be a cop.
One city's target IQ range was 85 to 110. I mean.... 85 is literally half-way to mentally handicapped.
I was qualifying at 50 yards, standing up using the plain iron sights on the Transtar III targets. To qualify we needed 17 hits anywhere on the blue out of 30 shots. I ended up with all 30 shots on the blue, and 24 inside the center 5 ring.
Overall I'm pretty happy with the score, considering I only had 2 hours of practice and only 60 shots of practice prior to qualifying. I'm just pissed because I got 29 shots in the center during both practice attempts.
I'm qualifying for my job with the Bureau of Prisons. Spending a few weeks in Georgia at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center there.
cuda1179 wrote: Not to derail this thread, or bash members of law enforcement, but a while back I was reading an article that many police departments now have a required IQ range for applicants. Too smart or too dumb and you can't be a cop.
One city's target IQ range was 85 to 110. I mean.... 85 is literally half-way to mentally handicapped.
aye, while its not a universal thing, some departments did turn away applicants judged "too smart". A federal court ruled it allowable IIRC in 2000. Not sure if that is still current practice anywhere or not.
I've had sort of the same thing happen with a Masters degree ("you're overqualified, go away", "my rent statement *reaaaaally* does not care if I'm overqualified on paper, I wouldn't have applied if I didnt want the job...")
More worryingly is the shooting requirements, as earlier noted. The NYPD apparently can miss like 12 shots off target out of 50 at 7 yards and qualify...
On top of that the NYPD custom orders their Glocks with 12lb triggers to match their old double action revolvers from 30+ years ago so they dont have to change their training...and then they wonder why the NYPD has issues putting rounds on target
Shooting qualification is pretty lax for many agencies. And I think for quite a few people the annual qualification may be the only time they shoot at all. Our 9mm qualifying was 21 out of 30 hits at 7 yards, with out course of fire consisting of a variety of different shooting scenarios (things like "from holster, fire 3 shots in 4 seconds, fire 3 shots - emergency reload - 3 shots in 10 seconds, and a couple other things). I've done plenty of handgun shooting before, so that wasn't much of a problem and I managed to get all 30 shots on target and scored 145 out of 150 points.
d-usa wrote: I was qualifying at 50 yards, standing up using the plain iron sights on the Transtar III targets. To qualify we needed 17 hits anywhere on the blue out of 30 shots. I ended up with all 30 shots on the blue, and 24 inside the center 5 ring.
Overall I'm pretty happy with the score, considering I only had 2 hours of practice and only 60 shots of practice prior to qualifying. I'm just pissed because I got 29 shots in the center during both practice attempts.
I'm qualifying for my job with the Bureau of Prisons. Spending a few weeks in Georgia at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center there.
d-usa wrote: Shooting qualification is pretty lax for many agencies. And I think for quite a few people the annual qualification may be the only time they shoot at all. Our 9mm qualifying was 21 out of 30 hits at 7 yards, with out course of fire consisting of a variety of different shooting scenarios (things like "from holster, fire 3 shots in 4 seconds, fire 3 shots - emergency reload - 3 shots in 10 seconds, and a couple other things). I've done plenty of handgun shooting before, so that wasn't much of a problem and I managed to get all 30 shots on target and scored 145 out of 150 points.
I've always been curious to see what kind of numbers there are on innocent bystanders being hit by police or private citizens legally defending themselves. When I tried to google it in the past I didn't find anything useful.
I'm guessing it's pretty rare, but without any numbers I really have no idea. (I'm definitely NOT trying to make the argument that proficiency is unimportant.)
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I've always been curious to see what kind of numbers there are on innocent bystanders being hit by police or private citizens legally defending themselves. When I tried to google it in the past I didn't find anything useful.
I'm guessing it's pretty rare, but without any numbers I really have no idea. (I'm definitely NOT trying to make the argument that proficiency is unimportant.)
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I've always been curious to see what kind of numbers there are on innocent bystanders being hit by police or private citizens legally defending themselves. When I tried to google it in the past I didn't find anything useful.
The police are not required to report fatal shootings, let alone nonfatal ones, so it's impossible to know how many people are shot or killed by the police every year for sure.
cuda1179 wrote: Not to derail this thread, or bash members of law enforcement, but a while back I was reading an article that many police departments now have a required IQ range for applicants. Too smart or too dumb and you can't be a cop.
One city's target IQ range was 85 to 110. I mean.... 85 is literally half-way to mentally handicapped.
aye, while its not a universal thing, some departments did turn away applicants judged "too smart". A federal court ruled it allowable IIRC in 2000. Not sure if that is still current practice anywhere or not.
I've had sort of the same thing happen with a Masters degree ("you're overqualified, go away", "my rent statement *reaaaaally* does not care if I'm overqualified on paper, I wouldn't have applied if I didnt want the job...")
More worryingly is the shooting requirements, as earlier noted. The NYPD apparently can miss like 12 shots off target out of 50 at 7 yards and qualify...
On top of that the NYPD custom orders their Glocks with 12lb triggers to match their old double action revolvers from 30+ years ago so they dont have to change their training...and then they wonder why the NYPD has issues putting rounds on target
The problem with NYPD (hence 12lb triggers) was they were riding their triggers after clearing their holsters as well as re-holstering and shooting themselves. So of course, the answer was to force Glock to install 12lb triggers. You cant make that stuff up.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I've always been curious to see what kind of numbers there are on innocent bystanders being hit by police or private citizens legally defending themselves. When I tried to google it in the past I didn't find anything useful.
The police are not required to report fatal shootings, let alone nonfatal ones, so it's impossible to know how many people are shot or killed by the police every year for sure.
Not sure about that, but I do know for sure that they are not held responsible for shooting bystanders in the course of their duties. But should a non-badged shooter shoot a bystander, that shooter should be ready to be loved tenderly by the DA.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
d-usa wrote: Shooting qualification is pretty lax for many agencies. And I think for quite a few people the annual qualification may be the only time they shoot at all. Our 9mm qualifying was 21 out of 30 hits at 7 yards, with out course of fire consisting of a variety of different shooting scenarios (things like "from holster, fire 3 shots in 4 seconds, fire 3 shots - emergency reload - 3 shots in 10 seconds, and a couple other things). I've done plenty of handgun shooting before, so that wasn't much of a problem and I managed to get all 30 shots on target and scored 145 out of 150 points.
Are they throwing in snap caps to simulate stoppages as well?
We did not have snapcaps during qualifying, but we did run drills with them in random order in our magazine to practice clearing them during different drills.
cuda1179 wrote: Not to derail this thread, or bash members of law enforcement, but a while back I was reading an article that many police departments now have a required IQ range for applicants. Too smart or too dumb and you can't be a cop.
One city's target IQ range was 85 to 110. I mean.... 85 is literally half-way to mentally handicapped.
aye, while its not a universal thing, some departments did turn away applicants judged "too smart". A federal court ruled it allowable IIRC in 2000. Not sure if that is still current practice anywhere or not.
I've had sort of the same thing happen with a Masters degree ("you're overqualified, go away", "my rent statement *reaaaaally* does not care if I'm overqualified on paper, I wouldn't have applied if I didnt want the job...")
More worryingly is the shooting requirements, as earlier noted. The NYPD apparently can miss like 12 shots off target out of 50 at 7 yards and qualify...
On top of that the NYPD custom orders their Glocks with 12lb triggers to match their old double action revolvers from 30+ years ago so they dont have to change their training...and then they wonder why the NYPD has issues putting rounds on target
Is that the serious qualification? only hitting 38 out of 50 shots at 7 yards????? Please tell me this is an exaggeration. I don't train that much and I could do that one-handed, left hand at that, with a mild cross wind.
cuda1179 wrote: Not to derail this thread, or bash members of law enforcement, but a while back I was reading an article that many police departments now have a required IQ range for applicants. Too smart or too dumb and you can't be a cop.
One city's target IQ range was 85 to 110. I mean.... 85 is literally half-way to mentally handicapped.
aye, while its not a universal thing, some departments did turn away applicants judged "too smart". A federal court ruled it allowable IIRC in 2000. Not sure if that is still current practice anywhere or not.
I've had sort of the same thing happen with a Masters degree ("you're overqualified, go away", "my rent statement *reaaaaally* does not care if I'm overqualified on paper, I wouldn't have applied if I didnt want the job...")
More worryingly is the shooting requirements, as earlier noted. The NYPD apparently can miss like 12 shots off target out of 50 at 7 yards and qualify...
On top of that the NYPD custom orders their Glocks with 12lb triggers to match their old double action revolvers from 30+ years ago so they dont have to change their training...and then they wonder why the NYPD has issues putting rounds on target
Is that the serious qualification? only hitting 38 out of 50 shots at 7 yards????? Please tell me this is an exaggeration. I don't train that much and I could do that one-handed, left hand at that, with a mild cross wind.
I can't say for 100% sure, it could be something different, the NYPD will not publish nor officially comment on their shooting qualifications. However, I've heard that from two former NYPD officers in person at different times and a number of other sources. I had heard the 12lb trigger thing in reference to matching old revolver triggers, Spacemanvic's explanation about them riding triggers also makes sense (horrifyingly) but wasn't one I'd heard before so there could be something similar with shooting quals.
But yeah, if true, I'd hate to see who couldn't manage that.
It seems about right. Our qualification with rifle is heavily influenced off of law enforcement qualifications. We have to hit 48 out of 60 shots. I can't remember what the qualification for handguns was but it was pretty silly too. Even my CCW/CHP class was more difficult and it was a joke as well. Qualifications for armed professionals are extremely relaxed and I believe it should be beefed up some. If you are missing 12 shots at 25 yards with a rifle, you are going to miss a lot more under stress. When I'm in uniform or as a civilian on the street, I am accountable for every single bullet that comes out of my gun. This is why I take additional training, paid for out of my own pocket.
I've seen people fail our quals before, sometimes they were just having a really bad day. Other times the person had no business having a gun in their hands. I've noticed law enforcement and private security companies not spending nearly enough time training their officers. They bring them out 2-4 times a year to qualify and that's it.
Owning a gun is one thing, but train with it regularly. Shooting is a parishable skill and needs to be maintained.
cuda1179 wrote: Not to derail this thread, or bash members of law enforcement, but a while back I was reading an article that many police departments now have a required IQ range for applicants. Too smart or too dumb and you can't be a cop.
One city's target IQ range was 85 to 110. I mean.... 85 is literally half-way to mentally handicapped.
aye, while its not a universal thing, some departments did turn away applicants judged "too smart". A federal court ruled it allowable IIRC in 2000. Not sure if that is still current practice anywhere or not.
I've had sort of the same thing happen with a Masters degree ("you're overqualified, go away", "my rent statement *reaaaaally* does not care if I'm overqualified on paper, I wouldn't have applied if I didnt want the job...")
More worryingly is the shooting requirements, as earlier noted. The NYPD apparently can miss like 12 shots off target out of 50 at 7 yards and qualify...
On top of that the NYPD custom orders their Glocks with 12lb triggers to match their old double action revolvers from 30+ years ago so they dont have to change their training...and then they wonder why the NYPD has issues putting rounds on target
Is that the serious qualification? only hitting 38 out of 50 shots at 7 yards????? Please tell me this is an exaggeration. I don't train that much and I could do that one-handed, left hand at that, with a mild cross wind.
Yea thats kind of a joke. But then again, this is for a poisitoin in the prison system correct? Firearms use as a priority is probability about #27 in what he would need.
The lady I bought my Redhawk .44 mag from found the original wooden grips and gave them to me. They're a lot thinner front-to-back than the Pachmyr grips that were on there and feel a lot better in my hand. The better fit seemed to cut down a lot on perceived recoil.
I'm missing 2-3 ducks today. Looks like I'm going to be sleeping out where I can see the run again. Not a good time for my AR to be down. I hope my cat is up to the task again, as the dogs are worthless.
My sweetheart of a brother got a Remington 7400 30-06 from a guy at work for free. He already has a really nice 30-06 and decided to give it to me. So now I have a pretty nice 30-06. It has the original wood on it and I like its look but Im also thinking of getting a synthetic stock and making it look more modern. It certainly made my day
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: The lady I bought my Redhawk .44 mag from found the original wooden grips and gave them to me. They're a lot thinner front-to-back than the Pachmyr grips that were on there and feel a lot better in my hand. The better fit seemed to cut down a lot on perceived recoil.
I'm missing 2-3 ducks today. Looks like I'm going to be sleeping out where I can see the run again. Not a good time for my AR to be down. I hope my cat is up to the task again, as the dogs are worthless.
Color me green with envy, that is a classy firearm.
What does the recoil feel like on a .44mag. Having a large hand-cannon is something I've been wanting to add to my collection, and I'm trying to decide on a caliber. .44 mag is at the top of my list, as the ammo is the most readily available.
cuda1179 wrote: What does the recoil feel like on a .44mag. Having a large hand-cannon is something I've been wanting to add to my collection, and I'm trying to decide on a caliber. .44 mag is at the top of my list, as the ammo is the most readily available.
My model 29 kicks a fair bit. However it is so heavy that it will knock you off target (in cool cowboy in the air fashion) but is not painful. Redhawks/blackhawks are even heavier.
Whats painful to me are small pistols. The weight to recoil is actually substantially higher for the micros.
One of the girls in my class was scared of the Glock 17 because "it's so heavy" and kept on complaining that they should have a lighter gun for people like her because the recoil on the big gun is going to be painful.
Quite a few of us tried explaining to her that small guns usually have worse recoil, but we didn't get anywhere. I like my LCP, but the tiny gun with the tiny .380 ammo gives me a beat up wrist after a day on the range.
When learnen da peeps I always start with a nice .22 pistol, then move up the food chain as they get bored. I never introduce a mini gun (I am not a fun of them at all). The most smallest I will go is to introduce them to my mom's old .380 llama (browning and I think Rock River have an equivalent). Its a scaled down 1911 with an actual locked breech mechanism and is a major soft shooter. Blowback .380s just recoil unforgivably due to the weight.
I did cheat once and had someone who had a real mental block shoot a .22 until they were comfortable, then had them shoot "bigger" .22 which was really a Browning Hi Power clone and they loved it.
cuda1179 wrote: What does the recoil feel like on a .44mag. Having a large hand-cannon is something I've been wanting to add to my collection, and I'm trying to decide on a caliber. .44 mag is at the top of my list, as the ammo is the most readily available.
My model 29 kicks a fair bit. However it is so heavy that it will knock you off target (in cool cowboy in the air fashion) but is not painful. Redhawks/blackhawks are even heavier. Whats painful to me are small pistols. The weight to recoil is actually substantially higher for the micros.
This is pretty accurate in my experience. With a "normal" .44 mag load in a full-sized revolver it jumps a lot but isn't painful. A person might not want to shoot a full box at a time, but shooting a dozen or two rounds isn't too bad.
Of course, there is a lot of variance when it comes to the revolvers themselves and how hot they're loaded. Some of the smaller .44 mag revolvers are extremely unpleasant to shoot, while some of the light .44 magnum loads don't feel much different than a .45 ACP in a big, heavy revolver.
I used to shoot magnum revolvers more regularly, but for the past ~11 years I was mostly shooting semi-autos. I can definitely tell the magnum revolvers bother me more than they used to.
Like, the bolt action AR thing doesn't bother me, love those Magpul fixed stocks, the suppressor setup is neat, but that SUSAT setup, even if functional, just looks...weird
I agree the aesthetics are odd, particularly as we're all used to the look of an AR with ACOG mounted etc.
But if you see this pic:
You will see why the mount is that way for a SUSAT to be used on the AR. I will see how I get on tomorrow, but it points nicely, and I like the simple pointed post reticle.
For an AR being used for target shooting and home defense is there any practical difference between a 1/9 and a 1/8 barrel?
d-usa wrote: One of the girls in my class was scared of the Glock 17 because "it's so heavy" and kept on complaining that they should have a lighter gun for people like her because the recoil on the big gun is going to be painful.
Quite a few of us tried explaining to her that small guns usually have worse recoil, but we didn't get anywhere. I like my LCP, but the tiny gun with the tiny .380 ammo gives me a beat up wrist after a day on the range.
I tried shooting an XDS in .45, and between the caliber, small barrel, and aggressive grip texture it was not a pleasant experience for the second handgun I ever fired.
Dreadclaw69 wrote: For an AR being used for target shooting and home defense is there any practical difference between a 1/9 and a 1/8 barrel?
d-usa wrote: One of the girls in my class was scared of the Glock 17 because "it's so heavy" and kept on complaining that they should have a lighter gun for people like her because the recoil on the big gun is going to be painful.
Quite a few of us tried explaining to her that small guns usually have worse recoil, but we didn't get anywhere. I like my LCP, but the tiny gun with the tiny .380 ammo gives me a beat up wrist after a day on the range.
I tried shooting an XDS in .45, and between the caliber, small barrel, and aggressive grip texture it was not a pleasant experience for the second handgun I ever fired.
For your intended purposes, there is no real difference between a 1/8 and a 1/9 barrel. For the most part, people shoot 55gr bullets for practice, with the occasional 62gr thrown in. The 1/9 can handle each readily. For my uses, I shoot 55/62gr and go up to 75gr for my pistols as a defensive round, so for me a 1/8 twist rate is what I aim for. As it stands, most AR manufacturers are settling on the 1/8 as the standard twist rate. The 1/8 is a good compromise as it allows you to shoot the lighter, cheaper rounds (55gr and 62gr) as well as the heavier rounds (75-80gr).
Now not all barrels and rifles are the same. Shoot a few different loads and see which YOUR rifle likes.
Thank you both. I've been looking at an M&P Sport II and while it is ticking a lot of the boxes it is a 1/9 barrel. Realistically thought it'll be used for target shooting and home defense so it is more than capable of handling the 55gr ammo for those purposes.
I haven't owned a rifle before and I'm trying to do my homework ahead of a potential purchase.
Carry, if it was purely range, I would probably go with the 17. I think that I could carry the 19 fairly comfortably. I'll probably play around with the subcompact as well when I go to the store, but I'll probably stick with the 19.
d-usa wrote: Carry, if it was purely range, I would probably go with the 17. I think that I could carry the 19 fairly comfortably. I'll probably play around with the subcompact as well when I go to the store, but I'll probably stick with the 19.
If printing is your concern:
I carry a Glock 19 or 26 daily. I'm only 5'6'' tall and weight @ 200lbs (working on getting it back down). I find that in the fall/winter it is easy to conceal the 19 without issue. In the spring and summer I think the 26 prints less, however I find that even then the 19 does not print all that much.
A good belt (I like rigger belts) and a decent holster will do wonders for concealment.
If weight is your concern:
A good belt will make it so that you don't really notice the weight of a compact/subcompact handgun.
I usually pocket carry a LCP if I'm not wearing anything that would help with concealment, so I would only wear the 19 if I got the clothes to hide it or when I'm carrying openly.
Maybe this is a dumb question, but is degreasing surplus rifles always necessary? I've got a M39 (Finnish Mosin variant). It's not like some of the surplus Russian Mosin-Nagants I've fondled in that the bore is clean, the action runs smoothly and there's no grease oozing out from the stock. It seems pretty clean overall.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Maybe this is a dumb question, but is degreasing surplus rifles always necessary? I've got a M39 (Finnish Mosin variant). It's not like some of the surplus Russian Mosin-Nagants I've fondled in that the bore is clean, the action runs smoothly and there's no grease oozing out from the stock. It seems pretty clean overall.
Sometimes that stuff will harden and prevent function or act as a dirt magnet even if it's not immediately obvious, so a thorogh cleaning is probably warranted, but you probably dont need to go full bore like if it were a Chinese or Russian gun that's been drowned in cosmoline for sixty years.
Picked up 5 boxes, found case dents present on at least one round in each box (3 boxes had multiple dented cases), multiple failures to eject, some rounds would eject and rocket off to the moon, others would barely dribble out of the gun.
Avoid that stuff like the plague, it's baaaaaaaad.
My ARs have eaten whatever Ive fed them, but I limit myself to Lake City, Federal, PMC, Remington or Wolf Gold for first firings, then I reload. I did shoot Fiocchi and Perfecta when we carried them. Of all of them, Wolf gives me the most issues with primer crimp, followed by LC - Ive crushed my fair share of primers with those two. Remington is the easiest to reload, but the primers seem to seat way to easy in them - they may not last as long for reloading. Ive stayed away from Tula, Wolf steel, and Whitebox because I just dont like shooting junk. To my thinking, Winchester whitebox is similar to Remington Thunderkrap 22LR.
In general I've had bad luck with Thunderbolt in 22LR, and I have had very hit and miss experiences with Winchester White Box and UMC. I don't buy them anymore.
I have been very happy with PMC Bronze as a plinking ammo for 308 and 5.56, for 22 mag and LR, I like CCI maxi-mags. I can't remember what brand I'm getting .300BLK in, but it's some subsonic ammo that has done 100% flawless. Not helpful that I can't remember the brand, sorry. It was Sellier & Bellot, but I switched to some Freedom Munitions stuff that was a little less expensive.
I like Tulammo quite a bit in my AK, but it is an AK.
For my self-defense rounds, like like 9mm Speer gold dots +P JHP, or Federal Hydra-shok JHPs in 45acp. I don't carry the 1911 much anymore though, I usually just carry the 9 now.
I'm going to post something that some of you, maybe most of you, already know, but maybe a handful might not.
When I first got my AR pistol, I shot cheap, steel cased ammo because my first rifle was an AK and that was my habit. This ammo worked in terms of operation. It wasn't super accurate, but it wasn't terrible. After reading about how hard this ammo was on your AR components, I switched over to brass only. Again I feel like I should reiterate it fed and operated just fine.
Flash forward to about 2 weeks ago, I had a shell get stuck in my chamber, or so I thought. I didn't have the tools on me to pop it out, so I waited to get home and used a cleaning rod. The shell was a little dirty, so I just assumed it was bad cleaning... although I am actually pretty good about cleaning.
I scrubbed the chamber thoroughly.
The other day I went out, and a misfeed immediately. I cleared it, and it misfed on the second round. The third round stuck in the chamber, again.
when I got home, I popped the shell out with a cleaning rod, and it was clean as a whistle. I examined my bolt, and sure enough - the extractor was 100% worn away. There was no hook on it at all anymore. I think I only shot about 800-1000 rounds of steel-cased before switching to brass.
The moral of the story is, you can save some money by shooting steel-cased ammo, but it does have some costs: it is very hard on your extractor, it's very hard on your barrel, and it's not particularly accurate. If it's just a screwing around gun, then you can still save money even with occasional barrel and extractor replacements added in, but I really can't recommend it outside of an emergency with how brass ammo is pretty cheap now, too.
Ouze wrote: I'm going to post something that some of you, maybe most of you, already know, but maybe a handful might not.
When I first got my AR pistol, I shot cheap, steel cased ammo because my first rifle was an AK and that was my habit. This ammo worked in terms of operation. It wasn't super accurate, but it wasn't terrible. After reading about how hard this ammo was on your AR components, I switched over to brass only. Again I feel like I should reiterate it fed and operated just fine.
Flash forward to about 2 weeks ago, I had a shell get stuck in my chamber, or so I thought. I didn't have the tools on me to pop it out, so I waited to get home and used a cleaning rod. The shell was a little dirty, so I just assumed it was bad cleaning... although I am actually pretty good about cleaning.
I scrubbed the chamber thoroughly.
The other day I went out, and a misfeed immediately. I cleared it, and it misfed on the second round. The third round stuck in the chamber, again.
when I got home, I popped the shell out with a cleaning rod, and it was clean as a whistle. I examined my bolt, and sure enough - the extractor was 100% worn away. There was no hook on it at all anymore. I think I only shot about 800-1000 rounds of steel-cased before switching to brass.
The moral of the story is, you can save some money by shooting steel-cased ammo, but it does have some costs: it is very hard on your extractor, it's very hard on your barrel, and it's not particularly accurate. If it's just a screwing around gun, then you can still save money even with occasional barrel and extractor replacements added in, but I really can't recommend it outside of an emergency with how brass ammo is pretty cheap now, too.
I dont touch the lacquered steel cased crap. The combloc brass ammo though is good to go, so is the Slovakian/Croatian ammo.
Ouze wrote: I'm going to post something that some of you, maybe most of you, already know, but maybe a handful might not.
When I first got my AR pistol, I shot cheap, steel cased ammo because my first rifle was an AK and that was my habit. This ammo worked in terms of operation. It wasn't super accurate, but it wasn't terrible. After reading about how hard this ammo was on your AR components, I switched over to brass only. Again I feel like I should reiterate it fed and operated just fine.
Flash forward to about 2 weeks ago, I had a shell get stuck in my chamber, or so I thought. I didn't have the tools on me to pop it out, so I waited to get home and used a cleaning rod. The shell was a little dirty, so I just assumed it was bad cleaning... although I am actually pretty good about cleaning.
I scrubbed the chamber thoroughly.
The other day I went out, and a misfeed immediately. I cleared it, and it misfed on the second round. The third round stuck in the chamber, again.
when I got home, I popped the shell out with a cleaning rod, and it was clean as a whistle. I examined my bolt, and sure enough - the extractor was 100% worn away. There was no hook on it at all anymore. I think I only shot about 800-1000 rounds of steel-cased before switching to brass.
The moral of the story is, you can save some money by shooting steel-cased ammo, but it does have some costs: it is very hard on your extractor, it's very hard on your barrel, and it's not particularly accurate. If it's just a screwing around gun, then you can still save money even with occasional barrel and extractor replacements added in, but I really can't recommend it outside of an emergency with how brass ammo is pretty cheap now, too.
Interesting. As far as I was aware, steel cases would cause increased wear, but shouldn't result in an extractor wearing *that* fast, that's insane. was it all the same type of steel cased or was it some Tula, some Wolf, some Brown Bear, etc?
Ouze wrote: I'm going to post something that some of you, maybe most of you, already know, but maybe a handful might not.
When I first got my AR pistol, I shot cheap, steel cased ammo because my first rifle was an AK and that was my habit. This ammo worked in terms of operation. It wasn't super accurate, but it wasn't terrible. After reading about how hard this ammo was on your AR components, I switched over to brass only. Again I feel like I should reiterate it fed and operated just fine.
Flash forward to about 2 weeks ago, I had a shell get stuck in my chamber, or so I thought. I didn't have the tools on me to pop it out, so I waited to get home and used a cleaning rod. The shell was a little dirty, so I just assumed it was bad cleaning... although I am actually pretty good about cleaning.
I scrubbed the chamber thoroughly.
The other day I went out, and a misfeed immediately. I cleared it, and it misfed on the second round. The third round stuck in the chamber, again.
when I got home, I popped the shell out with a cleaning rod, and it was clean as a whistle. I examined my bolt, and sure enough - the extractor was 100% worn away. There was no hook on it at all anymore. I think I only shot about 800-1000 rounds of steel-cased before switching to brass.
The moral of the story is, you can save some money by shooting steel-cased ammo, but it does have some costs: it is very hard on your extractor, it's very hard on your barrel, and it's not particularly accurate. If it's just a screwing around gun, then you can still save money even with occasional barrel and extractor replacements added in, but I really can't recommend it outside of an emergency with how brass ammo is pretty cheap now, too.
That seems like an incredible amount of wear for that many rounds. I wonder if maybe there was a defect in your extractor?
That...that hurts. I thought the 90 day wait on my Scorpion was bad.
