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Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/16 14:30:26


Post by: Gitsplitta


For New Readers:

This is a lengthy blog and can seem quite overwhelming. It describes not only the painting of an army but the evolution of a 20-year long idea about that army. It has involved a lot of community participation throughout and no matter how new you are to the party... I welcome your comments and your ideas.

To simplify matters, I have made a few links to summary posts of the work to date & links to battle reports featuring my Mantis Warriors. So... read the OP, check out the summaries & you should have all you need to jump ri6ght in and begin to contribute! And please contribute! This blog with be a shadow of itself without all the contributions of it's readers. It's NOT a "lookie what I did" kind of blog... it's much more of a living, breathing, community project (often literally as readers have done their own Mantis Warriors or contributed original sculpts to the effort). If you want a little more reading... the first 3 pages hold a lot of the theoretical stuff & should give you an idea of my thoughts on the chapter. Keep in mind this is all pre IA-10... though I don't plan on changing my opinions much post IA-10. From what I've seen however, with a few minor differences I think my ideas are pretty comparable with theirs. Gotta love it when a plan comes together. :-)

So welcome to the effort! I hope you enjoy it and find something of value in the following pages.

Cheers!
Gits

Most recent army pic (zoomable in the gallery)


P&M Summaries:
First P&M Summary (pg. 56)
Second P&M Summary (pg. 90)
Third P&M Summary (pg. 115)
Fourth P&M Summary (pg. 136)
Fifth P&M Summary (pg. 165)
Sixth P&M Summary (pg. 200)
Seventh P&M Summary (pg. 250)
Eighth P&M Summary (pg. 296)
Ninth P&M Summary (pg. 349)
Tenth P&M Summary (pg. 402)
Eleventh P&M Summary (pg. 497)

Battle Reports: (note, many of these are on other blogs and against my kids... so don't expect to see the height of 40k tactics, just fun games!)
Mantis Warriors vs. Chaos Demons
Mantis Warriors vs. Doom Eagles
Mantis Warriors vs. Bad Moonz & Eldar (report spread out over 3 pages)
Mantis Warriors vs. Doom Eagles II
Mantis Warriors & Space Wolves vs. Dark Eldar & Dark Angles
Mantis Warriors vs. Nids
Mantis Warriors & Lamenters vs. Blood Ravens
Adepticon 2011, Game 1
Adepticon 2011, Game 2
Adepticon 2011, Game 3
Mantis Warriors vs. Tau (1500 pts)
Mantis Warriors vs. Imperial Guard (2000 pts)
BA Mantis Warriors vs. Space Wolves (1000 pts)
BA Mantis Warriors + BA vs. IG (2000 pts)
BA Mantis Warriors vs. BA Doom Eagles (1000 pts)
Tyranids vs. BA Mantis Warriors: (1000 pts)
BA Mantis Warriors vs. Orks: (1000 pts)
6th Edition: Mantis Warriors vs. Necrons (1500 pts)
Mantis Warriors as DA vs. Doom Eagles as C:SM (1000 pts)
Mantis Warriors as DA vs. Necrons (1000 pts, Adepticon FOC)
Mantis Warriors as DA vs. Necrons II (1000 pts, Adepticon FOC)

Gitsplitta's threads that make you go "Wow!": Threads that inspired me early in my time on dakka (mostly).
Git's Tips on making a P&M blog: Building a better blog.
How I do my yellow: Yellow Tutorial
Our team's display book for Adepticon 2012: The Adeptinomicon
Tutorial on an easy method for painting checkerboards: How to paint Checkerboards
My chipping tutorial: Chipping Tutorial
My rust tutorial: Sponge Rust & Soot Tutorial
Git's Handy 40k Sinage: Imperial Propaganda Posters, Chemical and Industrial Warning Signs


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Project & Personal Intro

For roughly 20 years I have had a Mantis Warrior army... initially chosen because everyone had space marines and at the time, the fluff did not support chapters fighting one another save in the Herasy... with one exception... the Badab Rebellion. So one of my friends and I chose two of the rebel chapters, I took the Mantis Warriors, he the Lamenters. For 20 years the Mantis Warriors have served as my "second army" or... practice dummies for my main force... usually eldar and most recently orks. During this time however, they have been a constant presence... and slowly worked their way into my thoughts demanding a more substantial role. Their rather unique story in the 1000 chapters, their crusade/punishment, the original artwork in the first ed. rule book, their very name all invite a wide array of possibilities. Over the years I have thought about, pondered, even occasionally written up some of my ideas... but the latest eldar or ork goo-gaw always drew me back from any serious attempt at building the chapter.

Recently however, I've decided that the time has come to finally provide justice for my chapter and do them right... from scratch. There are a few units/figures that will carry over from my existing army, but only a few. Even then most of those models will only be temporary as they will eventually be replaced by special models. Most will get re-designed and re-built from scratch using specific armor styles and weapons, and I hope... custom helmets for the whole chapter. (Does anyone know a good sculptor? I'm not sure I'm up to this part.) Essentially most figures will be converted in some way, and in some cases to a high degree. The other thing is that I have no time limit... I'm not building this for any tournament or competition. I'm just going to relax, take all the time I need... and do it right. Which makes it a great project to do with the aide of this blog because I'll have plenty of time to consider everyone's comments and advice as I work my way through the project.

I know others have attempted the same thing, for probably very similar reasons. I have read with great interest their efforts, and have enjoyed them tremendously. For this project however, I will follow my own vision. I ask you to forgive my hubris in doing so.


Chapter Background *Please note; this entry was made *before* the release of IA 9 & 10 (as my interest in the chapter began back in the distant past). I invite you to read these books as I feel they've handled the Badab War and the Mantis Warriors very well, but they aren't the inspiration for this effort. It's the original fluff, brief as it is... that inspired me so many years ago & continues to do so to this day.

The best synopsis that I have found is given on the Lexicanum web site. While there are at least 3 or 4 sites that provide chapter summaries, the Lexicanum is the only one including references... and since I'm a science guy, having references is important. I reprint key elements of the text without permission. I also include the link to the site in case this isn't allowed & is deleted by the Mod (my apologies if so).

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mantis_Warriors

The Mantis Warriors (or Mantis Legion) are a Space Marine Chapter, founded as part of the 598.M35 founding, created to help relieve the White Scars in monitoring and countering the many threats harboured by the Maelstrom.
During the Badab War, the Mantis Warriors sided with the rebel Astral Claws; along with the Executioners, and the Lamenters.

Many Mantis Warriors believe that their chapter is cursed and many outside the chapter still regard them as traitors despite their official pardon. In Warrior Brood by C.S. Goto, they are described as "a chapter on the edge of the law, teetering on the brink of oblivion and approaching the borders of extinction, fighting desperately to regain its place amongst the chosen. They were not outlaws or renegades, but they had no home in the Imperium of man."

Here's the original artwork for them out of the "Compendium"... also reprinted without permission... sorry GW, but it's all I got...




What follows is the original story of the Badab War written by Rick Priestly as it appeared in White Dwarf 101. It is solely responsible for starting me on this journey so many years ago. I reprint it here without permission but with full credit given. Thanks Rick, you little story has given me over 20 years of a wonderful hobby which I now share with my two children and for which, I can never thank you enough.

The Badab War by Rick Priestley (White Dwarf 101)

In 901.M41, as a result of Lufgt Huron's apparent mental destabilisation, the Master of the Tiger Claws and Lord of Badab attacked and destroyed an Imperial investigation fleet as it entered orbit around Badab. Huron's action can be understood with the benefit of hindsight. The Adeptus Mechanicus had long complained of the Tiger Claws' tardiness in submitting gene-seed for routine analysis, whilst the chapter had amassed a huge debt in planetary tithes stretching back over a hundred and fifty years. And when the Imperium moved against its wayward chapter, a full scale rebellion was initiated, the most serious of its kind since the end of the Fourth Quadrant Rebellion in 780.M41.

The Tyrant of Badab, as Commander Huron is known in Imperial histories, was a power-hungry and ambitious individual who should never have risen to power within a Marine Chapter. He was plainly a dangerous individual, able in many respects but lacking the absolute dedication to humanity vital in a Lord of the Imperium. It will never be known for sure, but current hypotheses suggest that the Commander was either an alien shapechanger, or otherwise subject to alien domination of a most unnatural kind. A sudden and unexpected manifestation of psychic powers may lie at the heart of the matter.

By 903 three other chapters, the Mantis Warriors, Executioners and Lamenters had joined the rebellion. Imperial shipping was attacked, and a ship belonging to the Fire Hawks Chapter was captured by the Mantis Warriors in 904. The Fire Hawks immediately retaliated, and soon five whole chapters were involved in the fighting. The Emperor recalled the Marines Errant from the Eastern Fringes, but they quickly found themselves fully occupied protecting Imperial ships in transit.

In 906 two more loyal Marine units, the Red Scorpions and the Minotaurs, had been brought in, and the threat to Imperial shipping was more or less quashed. In 907 the Red Scorpions and Fire Hawks were recalled to their normal service duties in the galactic east, and two more chapters, the Novamarines and Howling Griffons were committed to space-lane duties.

Meanwhile, the Star Phantoms began the task of besieging Badab whilst two other chapters were drafted in to investigate the worlds occupied by the Mantis Warriors and Executioners. The Lamenters were caught in an ambush by the Minotaurs in 908 and eventually surrendered after bloody ship-to-ship fighting. This came as a great blow to the Tyrant, and the rest of the war consisted almost entirely of close sieges. The uprising came to an end in 912 with the fall of Badab and final defeat of the Tiger Claws. Before the war was over, The Exorcists, Fire Angels, Salamanders, Space Sharks and Sons of Medusa all became involved for short periods of time; chapters replacing other chapters as pressures elsewhere necessitated their re-deployment.

With the rebellion over, The Mantis Legion, Executioners and Lamenters were granted the Emperor's forgiveness, subject to undertaking a hundred year crusade. The homeworlds of the Mantis Legion and Executioners were forfeited to the Space Sharks and Star Phantoms for their part in the war. The other legions received salvage rights to spacecraft and a proportion of the booty. The Tiger Claws were all but destroyed. Only a contingent of about two hunded fought their way through the Exorcists' blockade and escaped into deep space. They have not been heard of since. Of the fate of Imperial Commander Lufgt Huron, Master of the Tiger Claws and Tyrant of Badab, nothing is known.



I have some very clear ideas about what I'd like to do with this chapter, other things are totally up-in-the-air. I welcome any and all comments on any aspect of this project, but please keep in mind that while your comment or idea might be a really, really good one. It just may be about one of those few things that I have my heart set on doing in a specific way. Even if that's the case though... I want to hear your ideas anyway. This blog will cover everything from modeling, painting to army construction and philosophy... so the sky's the limit!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/16 15:05:55


Post by: Limbo


Ever since I read Warrior Brood I've loved the Mantis Warriors, and even if the book is considerd by most to be a piece of gak, I'd still recommend it. It gives a nice inside look into the chapter.

So I'm behind you 100% can't wait for the first model!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/16 15:16:41


Post by: Just Dave


Looks Good, I love you thinking behind it, so long as you don't relax too much and actually post stuff!

Otherwise, I'll be keeping track, good luck.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/16 15:30:47


Post by: Gitsplitta


No worries, I'll post. Limited to text for the next few days... but I have the first squad 's conversions in-process & will get them up when I can. There's a lot to talk about and consider though... so I think there's room for interesting discussion between now and then.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/16 15:53:11


Post by: Cjsuner


i read the book also, and have been wanting to see somebody acutlly do a MW army. I will be keeping tabs on this, if you keep it updated that is


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/16 16:19:22


Post by: powerclaw


I'm not familiar with the chapter. Is the idea of a Mantis carry over in any way to their tactics, weapon choices, etc? I just got a cool idea for special lightning claws shaped like Praying Mantis fore-limbs (not very knowledgeable in Mantis physiology either apparently). Tactics-wise they would be patient stalkers with lots of snipers and few drop-pods.

Either way, cool idea


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/16 16:35:53


Post by: Tek


I've never seen a decent Mantis Warriors army. I'm looking forward to someone with such a lot of love for the chapter getting his teeth into this.

The world needs more Badab armies. I intend to start one myself, but only after the current two are finished.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/16 16:57:58


Post by: Brotheralexos


This should be a fun modelling experience for you, considering that they can't get new recruits.

I think that you should try and make it look like their armour is beat-up, alot of their tanks look destroyed, and such. It would show that they do not have the manpower to replace Techmarines, Apocatheries, and such to fix things.

Or, you could make it look like each trooper has experience in making battlefield repairs, healing others, and just about everything. It would show that the chapter has relied on having multiple duties assigned to one guy so they can conserve manpower.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/16 17:50:47


Post by: Grey Knight Luke


I like the idea of everything being super damaged. I would think its as if not repairing their gear and/or not recruiting new units, the mantis warriors are in effect performing some act of penance.

When I read the story that you provided that is the type of feeling I get, that the Mantis Warriors are like a man who has just cheated on his wife (the emperor) and wants so badly to get back into her good graces he will do anything. This is cool because the Mantis Warriors now are required to be heroes who really risk themselves. Which from a creators perspective will allow you to do really cool modeling and conversions with these guys (maybe thinking back to some of the heroic games you have fought with them and giving individual units or models their own stories).

I don't really know what else to say, just thought getting the ball rolling would help.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/16 19:10:51


Post by: Malika2


Well, I'd go for a detailed project, closely mixing the fluff and the modelling. Each character/squad has its own story, kind of like this Word Bearers or Apologist's infamous Praetors of Calth log.

You mentioned that the chapter isn't traitor, but isn't accepted by the Imperium anymore either. Well, it wouldn't surprise me if there were elements amongst the survivors who will resent the Imperium for this and might even be tempted to go into the Maelstrom to join Huron and his Red Corsairs.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/16 21:55:56


Post by: inmygravenimage


Have a look at Keratis Warriors from Confrontation; their helms and bodies have mandibles and pincers; my suggestion would be that you could press mould the pincers, which would give you a flat edge that you could then attach to Mk6/7 SM helm. Generally, Dirz/Scorpion bits might work well for the project. Just my tuppence; good luck and looking forward to blog!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/16 22:03:51


Post by: Carlovonsexron


A potential theme you might want to tap into is maybe an East Asian influence.

Reason being is that its not exactly implausible (in fact, I'd say perhaps very likely) that White Scar Geenseed was used to make the mantis warriors, given their specific purpose at helping to relieve the white scars themselves- and as its pretty well established, the white scars are Space mongols - added to that the whole 'Praying Mantis style Kung Fu' and an East Asian theme might start coming together!

And you don't see too much of that when it comes to space marines, either

In fact, the theme of the wandering warrior monk rather fits the theme of the mantis warriors (but then, so does the mythological theme of Hercules, the repentant sinner looking for Atonement through great and heroic deeds)


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/16 22:39:22


Post by: Flashman


Love seeing older Chapters from the original rulebook. I have fond memories of that page. Wasn't there a Space Sharks Chapter? Now that would be cool...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/17 00:44:18


Post by: Munch Munch!


Flashman wrote:Love seeing older Chapters from the original rulebook. I have fond memories of that page. Wasn't there a Space Sharks Chapter? Now that would be cool...

Yes indeed.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/17 06:24:11


Post by: Gitsplitta


All-right guys... first update, have unexpected access to a normal computer with a keyboard, so this'll be a little easier than I thought.

Really excited about the response from everyone, I'll try not to disappoint. Cool that some of you are thinking along the same line as I am, some not, but all good either way.

So, first some set-up... I can't find the reference at the moment, but the suggestion is that the Mantis Warriors were sent into the maelstrom after the Astral Claws as their crusade. Hunt down their old allies and all that. Think about that for a minute. They'd just finished a losing effort in the Badab War, then sent for 100 years into the physical manifestation of chaos in this reality, bereft of material support or recruits. 100 years of perpetual war, with no way to replace casualties or equipment. Make no mistake... this crusade was a suicide mission... and the Astartes knew it.

So how did they survive? What changes would occur to the structure of the chapter during this period? I don't think it's enough that they would just look beaten up, no way they would have survived 100 years of constant warfare against their equals (Astral Claws), the crone worlds, pirates, exodites, cultists, deamons, or whatever else they would have been surrounded by. Something fundamental would have had to change within the chapter to allow them to emerge in-tact. Also I believe that there must have been a realization within the Astartes itself that if they didn't recall the Mantis Warriors, they would lose the chapter entirely. Further, that if the Mantis Warriors were to survive, immediate support in men and materials would need to be provided. I don't pretend to know if they succeeded in their crusade or not, but I do know that they would emerge an entity unlike any other chapter in the Imperium.

I (obviously) have some pretty clear ideas on the above subjects... but since it's 1 AM... I think I'll leave you with that provocative problem to ponder... (there are just so many!... love the MWs for that)



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/17 06:32:23


Post by: Murray


Enjoying the thread, good to read up on some old chapters from an era i wasnt in, the history sounds slightly harsh tbh..


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/17 06:34:40


Post by: Iron_Chaos_Brute


After/with the other blog, I'm looking forward to this one.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/17 06:52:17


Post by: Maj.Winters


Personally I find the notion that they were sent into the maelstrom after their old (traitor) allies either very unbelievable or very ill advised.

Considering they would not have any support or re-inforcement, and that they had just fought WITH the claws, and they will be in the Maelstrom, it would make them ideal for corruption. I would say that is the last place they should do their crusade.

If I was in charge I would have sent them after something straightforward like Orks or something.

That being said: I think they would have very much adapted to a "life behind enemy lines": dressing in disguise (repainting their armor to disguise), using xenos weaponry, armor and vehicles, employing guerilla tactics. If they were outmatched, pitched battles would be their undoing so fast strikes would be important.

Just my $0.02 while I try to avoid writing about loan modification and foreclosures for school.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/17 19:16:30


Post by: Munch Munch!


Well, since the mantis warriors were in a hundred year war with no support or anything like that with the tainting warp effects, can we expect to see some beat up csm bits in there?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/17 20:04:42


Post by: Grey Knight Luke


the minute that any of the other SM chapters realized that the Mantis Warriors were tainted... I think they would get smoked. I mean I know if they went into the warp there would be some effects. But they can't be so noticeable that they are considered traitorus excomunicae.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/17 22:52:59


Post by: BLACKHAND


This is cool, last time I saw a P&M blog without pics it degenerated pretty quick and had to be locked, here it's generated a great discussion.
Gitsplitta I hope you realise how much respect you've earnt from the Dakka community with your Doom Eagles blog, keep it up man!

PS. that said I can't wait to see what you come up with your talent and the mass of ideas that have been suggested already


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/17 23:37:09


Post by: Gitsplitta


I have to agree that my thinking is much more along a line with Luke's than otherwise. The MW's still have to be "pure" or they would have never been accepted back into the fold by the Astartes. My "changes" are much less drastic than what most of you are coming up with, but they are consistant with what I think would be neccessary to have a chapter survive this ordeal. And I promise i'll stop talking cryptically and get to some distinct ideas... but first let me tell you WHY my ideas for the chapter are toned down to the extent they are.

Rule #1 (the only rule): The army must be able to be played in any standard game or tournament without any special dispensation. i.e. it must follow a standard codex.

Building a really neat special army with all kinds of cool powers is great... but if I can't take it to any 40k game in the world and play it... it's useless. That being said, over the years I have pondered many interesting special abilites and rules to give the Mantis Warriors a special charachter... and I'll post and discuss them happily. In the end however, the direction that I'm chosing to follow is that of a 100% legal army under a standard codex in the 5th Ed rule set as I refuse to give anyone else "veto" authority over my army list, nor do I have any intention of doing all this work and end up with an army that I can't play under any circumstances.


So... given the above... the chapter needs to be based on a current codex. I am not interested in playing them as a traitor chapter, as I'm not certain that what passes for current official fluff supports that and frankly I'm just not a chaos guy. However I would LOVE to see someone work on a traitor version of the MWs at the same time that I work on the loyalist version. Just too cool for school, that! But I digress... They are a natural fit for one of the demi-human chapters given their "mantis" name, however none of the existing demi-human chapters is even remotely close to insectoid in nature... so there is no natural fit from a biological standpoint. Though we know the MWs are a second founding chapter, we don't know from who, so again... no help there. All things being equal then, I've chosen to use the basic marine codex as my starting point. First it is a very flexible codex, and I think I can pull in all the main threads that I've identified for the chapter within it's pages. Secondly, as THE base codex of 40k, it tends to be the most resilliant and resistant to the whims of radical change driven by the rules designer-du-jour of any given edition, so hopefully after putting in all this work on 5th ed, I won't have to totally scrub it when 6th ed comes around. Remember, I've seen a lot of rule sets and armies come-and-go, wax-and-wain in power and abilities over the years... I want my chapter to last.

OK, so those are some of the practical, mundane gaming considerations that have led me down my current path. Next I'd like to share some of my thinking on what would have been necessary to keep the chapter alive and faithful (aside from the zeal of the troopers) during the crusading period, after which I can share my ideas for force organization and unit construction & design. I'll tip my hat this much... I think almost all of what will make the Mantis Warrior army unique, can be accomplished through the FOC, careful and fluffy modeling, the "counts as" trick and the choices I make in deployment and play. If one day GW wants to take the chapter in hand and give them the full treatment with all the special powers that makes their other principal chapters unique... God bless 'em. But I don't need that to happen to field the army of my desire. I am confident that by using my ideas combined with your input, I can work within the existing rules to make a very unique and interesting chapter, that though it comes from the Ultramarine 'dex, is NOT the Ultramarines. Perhaps in it's own a way a true reflection of a "successor chapter"... sharing an origin (the codex) but totally unique in it's application.

Time for a drink.... and some time to collect my thoughts. More later. - GS





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blackhand: Sincerely... thanks. It has really been fun, helpful and deeply satisfying to be a part of this community. And I haven't given up on the other blog... it's just on hold for a bit due to current temporary circumstances, in a week or so I hope to be able to get that one rolling again with (hopefully) some painting progress made by the boys. It will probably slow over the summer as they find other, outdoor things to occupy their time (which they should, frankly), but I'm determined to stick with it... and juding by the enthusiasm the boys have shown for our time working on 40k together... I don't think they're likely to lose interest.

This one won't stay text... again I'm kinda prevented from doing anything else at the moment. But there are so many things to discuss, foundations to lay, rationalle to explain, ideas to share with a project like this... I thought that perhaps being limited to text at the start might be a good thing... because people could take the time to focus a bit on the deeper issues involved rather than getting all tied up in the modeling and painting right from the start. A project like this is definatly "big picture"... so you have to be able to stand back from time to time and see the forest... not just the trees that surround you (as the saying goes).

Anyway... thanks. Been a great ride so far!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/18 00:13:11


Post by: Brotheralexos


Okay, I love the amount of detail you put into this, its alot more than "I'm going to put a few things together, how I WANT IT, and call it a chapter."

I would like to throw a few Ideas at you on Organisation, mainly based around fluff, but what could actually be used to cement your chapter.

1. Attacking worlds is probably the primary things the Mantis Warriors would be doing in the Maelstorm, so troops, supplies, reinforcements, etc. would have to be moved around a lot faster then a ground offensive could pull. I was thinking that their vets would be in drop pods most of the time.

2. Since the Mantis Warriors had to hunt down the Astral Claws, and the Astral claws are Space marines no doubt, they would have to break some pretty clever traps, destroy fortress after fortress, and even repel rapid redeployment of enemy forces. I thik you'll want to go with a Mechanised look to your force, just because it would fit all of those roles pretty neatly.

3. They were exposed to the maelstorm for 100 years... No psykers for you.

4. My last thoughts are a little more around objective based games, but on the lines of number 1, The Mantis Warriors would have to make their own fortifications in the event of being counter-attacked at their planetfall site. I was thinking of making it look like the Techmarines took used drop pods and turned them into bunkers for their bretheren.

5. Command structures would be smaller, mainly due to no reinforcements. I would suggest instead of dividing the troops into companies, you set them up into strike units. One strike unit would be for securing a beachhead, another for reinforcement, etc.

Hope these help!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/18 00:28:12


Post by: IceAngel


First off I am super excited to see how you take this. I can't wait to see the models as well. I was always a fan of chapters that had more then one paint scheme such as the MW with their camo. I also like the fact that you're putting in the time to work on background first. Everything is easier once you have the "why" aspect worked out.

I havn't read the Deathwatch book that was mentioned but I plan on reading it. I reread the MW section a couple times and after thinking about it you could almost go a couple routes. Do you remember the space wolf 13th company models? After spending time in the warp they had become the wulfen and they ended up using chaos equipment because they ran out of their own after awhile. You could go that route and have it be justifiable. However, when they returned the loyalists probably be so keen on having a "loyal" chapter using tainted equipment.

If a chapter wasn't getting reequipped they would have most likely exhausted all of their supplies, so maybe you could have some of your models have bare arms or legs, more like scouts. Or you could even have your tanks look a bit more rattled, have some extra plates put on there. If the Mantis Warriors used varies types of camouflaged armor, by the time their trip was over you know they would have had to of used nearly all of it. Maybe in your army you could have random members be wearing desert camo or jungle camo or even mismatch the armor to show that they are using whatever they have left.

After typing all of this though, I have a question for you. The Badab crusade was still a super long time ago in the grand scheme of 40K. Are you trying to make the Mantis Warriors look like they did when the first emerged or like they would be now? They did make it out of the warp and survived the ordeal. Do we know if they got their home world back?

Another random thought, maybe each sergeant or leader figure in your army could look like a chaplain, not necessarily use the rules but if a chapter spent so much time in the warp the chaplains would have had to of been on constant look out for corruption in the chapter.

Wow, I still have a lot more thoughts and suggestions but I think I'll let you enjoy these first. lol, i look forward to seeing where you take this. Thanks for letting us monitor your work in progress!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/18 01:53:30


Post by: Grey Knight Luke


I definitely agree with the posts from above.

As far as HQ choices go I think that you have potentially 4 choices:
-Chapter Master - The tactical head of your chapter, the only way that the Mantis Warriors could have ever hoped to have survived a 100 year ordeal without any sort of reinforcements. This seems like a no brainer for your army (Pedro Kantor, not that you need to use his rules).
-Captain- same reasons as above without the omg he his the chapter master coming to do battle.
-Chaplain- As they said above, a chaplain would provide all your spiritual support, he would be tough as nails and keep your chapter from succumbing to chaos. Without one, I doubt that any chapter could ever survive those perils.
- Master of the Forge- If you decide to go mechanized, there is no way that your chapter could survive without a techmarine. The MOTF would provide the same level of support as a chaplain, but to the machines instead of the bodies.

Logistically it seems proper to allocate the HQ slots to the Chapter Master/Captain and the Chaplain and dedicate an elite slot to the Techmarine. Now you can always make a storyline that fulfills one of these roles (after being essentially kicked out of the imperium everyone was so zealous to repay themselves that they didn't need a heroic chaplain or one that has been stated that the SM just had to repair their own vehicles). I don't think you can get around the Chapter Master/Captain though.

But I like where all this is going and I am definitely interested in reading more!!!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/18 04:23:10


Post by: Boss 'eadbreaka


You know, is it just me or do the Chapters that came out twenty years ago have more character than the ones we're stuck with today?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/18 04:53:59


Post by: Tim the Biovore


Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:You know, is it just me or do the Chapters that came out twenty years ago have more character than the ones we're stuck with today?


Yes. Yes it is.

Can't wait to see more.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 03:10:09


Post by: Gitsplitta


Great ideas guys, thanks! Gives me lots to think about, and I will cover/encorporate a lot of them in upcomming posts.

I haven't actually read the book with the Mantis Warriors in it either. Would love to, but at the same time am a bit nervous that it would contradict some of the ideas I'm fairly attached to. Not that that fact would necessarily change my direction... but still.


Excellent question that was asked earlier that I need to answer... My version of the Mantis Warriors takes place fairly soon after their return. They are rebuilding, but still have much of their "crusade" charachter.


This evening's little brain feast consists of some ideas that I've developed about the things that would have needed to change in the chapter for it to survive the crusade... None of this is directly fluff supported... they're just my ideas, but I think they're logical and consistant with the 40k universe.

First, let's step into the way-back machine with Mr. Peabody and Sherman and travel back to the first edition rule book and supporting materials of the time. There-in began my love affair with the concept of the Sisters-of-Battle... or nuns with guns. There were a couple of photo's of a couple of painted figs... figs that I never saw anywhere for sale... and a great bit of fluff to support. (be patient, this does relate to the current project) The story told that the duty of the Sisters was to insure the purity of the gene seed of the space marines. That sisters would travel from chapter to chapter, with a special scanner attached to a pistol that fired an adamantium rod or piston. The weapon could be held to the head of a marine and detect if the gene seed was tainted, if so, the piston would fire automatically driving the rod into the head of the marine... termanating him and preventing the spread of the taint. At least that's my recollection of the tale. I do not vouch for it's accuracy. I do vouch for the fact that we thought this was so awsome a story... we all wanted Sisters of Battle (but at the time there were none to be had).

Back to the issue at hand... How would the Adeptus Astartes know that the Mantis Warriors had completed their task? Clearly an apparent suicide mission was accepted as fair punishment for their transgressions, but certainly they would not have "fed" the ranks of the traitor chapters by sending an already compromised loyalist chapter into the maelstrom without any sort of monitoring or way of resisting taint, or a ray of hope for salvation. My idea is thus... a Cannoness of the Sisterhood would be assigned to the C-n-C of the Mantis Warriors for the duration of the crusade, to monitor their progress, to assure the purity of the gene seed of the chapter, and assure that the individual marines stayed free of taint. Then would report back to the Adeptus Astartes with her findings. It would have also been made clear to the Mantis Warriors that if a cannoness failed to report at the end of, or survive her tour of duty, the chapter would be immediately declared renegade and treated as traitors. Every 5 years the cannoness would return to the Imperium to make her report, and a new connoness would be sent to take her place. While the existance of the "monitor" (or spy) would be hated and resented by the chapter, they would realize that she represented to sole chance for them to regain their place amongst the loyal bretheren. She would be reviled, feared and treated with reverance all at the same time. Their greatest hope, their greatest shame... a constant reminder of their betrayal of trust, as well as their only road back to salvation. The frequent rotation would ensure a zealous enforcement of Astartes law by the cannoness, and prevent a cult of personality from forming in the ranks of the Mantis Warriors. Now, I have no idea what is going on in the minds of the author of the book, but my feeling is that the Mantis Warriors did not complete their crusade, but their relentless pursuit of their foes brought them to the very brink of destruction. It was a cannoness' report that alterted the Astartes of how critical the situation had become, and the accumulated record of the chapter while on crusade, through these reports, convinced the AA to officially pardon and recall the chapter before the point of no return had been reached.

Now that the Mantis Warriors have returned, there would be no need to have a cannoness in the top eschelon of the command structure any more. However, I think it would now be a point of pride for the chapter that their motivations and loyalty be seen as beyond reproach. As such, they would request that the post of the cannoness be retained, until such time as the chapter was returned to full strength and full status in the Adeptus Astartes. To represent this, I plan on fielding a Cannoness of the Sisterhood in any command squad I make. I've actually been doing this for a long time, and already have a decently painted cannoness figure in hand... though I will probably strip the fig and re-paint in the final iteration of the army. I just use her as a marine equivalent & don't attempt to ascribe any special powers or abilities to her, so in gaming terms she's just one of the command squad marines, but in chapter look, feel and fluff she's very important.

Flame away... I know this'll make some of you nuts... I can take it.






Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 03:20:18


Post by: Grey Knight Luke


INSTEAD... go pick up the Witch Hunters codex... get a Cannoness model. Use the cannoness as an allied HQ unit. You can legally do this. This just means that you will have only 1 HQ unit (that you must take) that is Space Marine.

Sounds cool IMO.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 03:56:00


Post by: Munch Munch!


Nice fluff idea and beautifuly described. You make me anticipate more of your backround.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 04:16:06


Post by: Malika2


I like the fluff idea, but there are some oddities. The Adeptus Astartes are all separate chapters, not some single organization that comes together every once in a while. I think that instead of "reporting to the Adeptus Astartes", the agent could better report to the Inquisition.

Wait, perhaps the Adeptus Mechanicus would be more fitting. Every chapter has to send 5% of its geneseed to the Adeptus Mechanicus. Perhaps they have dispatched an agent to make sure that they don't become tainted during their banishment.

I doubt however that this figure would really hang around the army. Perhaps instead of making it an allied Sister of Battle you might perhaps try to include an Assassin instead? The funky wargear could represent the superior technology of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

I would also make sense to have them in there rather than the Ecclesiarchy since these two organisations (Ecclesiarchy and Adeptus Astartes) aren't the best of buddies (Emperor worship and all).

Or perhaps the agent has been dispatched by the Inquisition to report to them but also the Adeptus Mechanicus. This in itself could lead to some nice potential intrigue between the Inquisition and Adeptus Mechanicus over the fate of the Mantis Warriors.

I really dig the idea of them hunting for the Red Corsairs. Some might even wear bits of armor taken from their dead enemies (Red Corsairs, other marines who joined them, or maybe even Word Bearers).

As the Mantis Claws are going extinct (well, almost) I could also see them having primarily elite units, no new recruits would mean fewer scouts. (didnt the 3rd edition Space Wolves Codex have more elite scouts? does the new one have that too?), more elite units like Veterans. Terminator Armour would become potentially rarer due to losses and lack of resources to maintain them. Same would go for more funky technology such as Land Speeders (at least that is the argument GW has given us to why the Chaos Legions dont have them). I guess they would primarily rely on Drop Pods and Thunderhawk Gunships if they still have them. Not so much teleporting since it's not 100% reliable (which means you dont want to use that if you're running out of men).
If they are in the Maelstrom hunting for the Red Corsairs, I guess they would have to be primarily anti-armour type of marines. Lots of melta weapons (reliable and not too hard to maintain if Im not mistaken, unlike plasma weapons), lascannons, missile launchers. If your force will include Scouts they would be very specialized, this means sniper rifles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, maybe these might inspire you!

Doghouse's Mantis Warriors

Mantis Warriors article, mentions the use of blades on the arms. Also "praying mantidae" squads who hunt down the Red Corsairs. I guess they could be represented by Vanguard or assault veteran squads. Also, all marines appear to have green eyes and long black hair...

Badab War Play Aid. Unofficial rules, but it has some interesting fluff, artwork and modelling stuff which might inspire you some more!




Oh yeah, some ideas for conversions, what about adding small blades on the arms, take the spiky bits from the Dark Eldar sprue. Doghouse did it too, looks rather fitting! Another cool touch could be to remove the Imperial Eagles from the chest. Note that before the Horus Heresy only the Emperor's Children and some heroes were allowed to wear the Imperial Eagle on their chests because they were viewed as worthy. After the Heresy the Loyalists all started to wear them. Perhaps the Mantis Warriors have removed the Imperial Eagles from their chestplates to show remorse for their treason during the Badab War. Viewing themselves as unworthy of wearing the Eagle until they have fully redeemed themselves.

By the way...please make them true scale? Like Migsula's Legion!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, you mentioned corrupted Mantis Warriors...check this out!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 07:43:18


Post by: BLACKHAND


I agree with grey knight luke , run the cannoness as an allied witchhunter, it will avoid problems when you play "official games".

I like Malika's idea about the dark eldar blades on the edge of the forearm, it would be a simple and effective way to tie the models into the manits theme without adding a custom "insectoid" head and wouldn't need a special rule to explain. Or you could cut the teeth off a chainsword and mount them on the arms with the "engine" stuck to the elbow, gettin a bit complicated there though.

Also perhaps they could all fight with reversed power and chain swords? then their arms would resemble the double backed arms of a mantis

Regardless I like the idea of a canoness being a plant for the inquisition.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 09:10:30


Post by: inmygravenimage


Another faily quick and easy way to do mandibles could be using bits off Tyranid sprues: was rummaging through junk sprues at Conflict and thought of your project.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 13:00:22


Post by: Gitsplitta


Malika: Really like your ideas, and you're right... I'm probably using "Adeptus Astartes" incorrectly when I really mean the Inquisition. But some governing body must have issued the original punishment, and they would be the ones to recind it. No matter the part of the Administratum to do it... it does make sense to me that the "agents" involved would be from the Ecclesiarchy, especially given the fluff I refer to in the beginning of my post (which was not my invention, but something GW came up with many years ago). The fact that the Ecclesiarhy and AA don't particularly get along is probably a better fit for this particular job, because you wouldn't want any sympathy to develop between paroll officer and the parollee...

I like the mechanicus angle... and was planning on having a greatly elevated techmarine role in the chapter (next major post I'll explain), let me think about it and see what I can come up with. I haven't had a chance to check out the links you sent, but I will before my next major post. Looking forward to seeing what other people have done & hope it will provide some good ideas and inspiration.

I'll look into the allied witchhunter command thing... didn't know I could do that. Would LOVE to have her there "officially".

The double (reversed) chainsword idea is a great one, and instincitive... I thought about that almost immediately, and several people have also mentioned it. While I'm sure I can do the conversion... there are some options to kick around, but I'd rather discuss that when we actally get to the army structure, force organization and units selection and design. That's coming (fairly quickly... only one or two "background" posts left), but I want to sort out some of the errata before we get into the "meat" of the chapter.

The blades on the forearms sound like a very interesting idea... when I get into a position to mess with my models again I'll have to do some experimenting. Just don't want them to end up looking like dark eldar wannabees. Funny thing is that a real praying mantis doesn't really have noticable mandibles, they're incorporated into it's regular mouth parts so you can't even see them unless it's eating... but I get the idea and it is a cool concept. There are kind of spiky bits (serrations) on the limbs of many mantids... The chainsword blade idea has merit. I've got a good selection of fine tools (used to be a jeweler of sorts), so I think I could handle the conversion. Though I might put them on the legs and arms both as this would be a more natural arrangment. Lord I'm going to need a boat-load of chainswords...

I really like the idea of true scale marines... just dont know if I can afford the many extra bits... though my first conversions might be close because of the legs I used... (they're about as tall kneeling down as a Black Reach marine is standing up). I'll have to re-read the true scale stuff and give it some thought.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 13:12:46


Post by: migsula


Nice discussion going on and definitely adds to expectations!

For extremely nicely painted bright green marines, Grey Death's marine blog here at dakka is a great reference.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 18:19:39


Post by: Malika2


The blades on the forearms sound like a very interesting idea... when I get into a position to mess with my models again I'll have to do some experimenting. Just don't want them to end up looking like dark eldar wannabees.

It's just some small blades, it's quite subtle, I mean...check this picture.

I really like the idea of true scale marines... just dont know if I can afford the many extra bits... though my first conversions might be close because of the legs I used... (they're about as tall kneeling down as a Black Reach marine is standing up). I'll have to re-read the true scale stuff and give it some thought.

You need Terminator models, maybe try to get them off eBay or something?

Don't make them brightly green, perhaps a slightly darker colour, add light damage to the armour here and there, maybe some looted equipment (which may or may not be repainted in the MW scheme), but it would be cool to see some very different armour patters mixted up. One shoulderpad looted from Chaos, another one an Mk3, Mk7 chestplast, Mk5 legs, etc. Maybe even some marines with bare arms (kind of like Kharn the Betrayer).


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 18:42:14


Post by: inmygravenimage


I agree with Malika2 on toning back the colour palette. Maybe a sort of classic Boba Fett, muted, scratched and damaged.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 21:19:43


Post by: Solar_lion


I love the thought process you have generated.

Just because they are on a crusade and lost their home world doesn't mean they are truly without resources. Things I'd look at are raw materials and support, They must have transportation and ships which contain facilities and manufacturing. Add that many historical armies devoted a lot of resources to scavenging. I’d look to make them reflect their desire to look more like their glory days. If resources are scarce they make do with what they can find.
How to make it look… have varying types of power armor, different looks of the same weapon. As for battle damage; perhaps some of the big stuff, or stuff that would be more rare or harder to repair or find parts. The reason I say this that they are élite warriors and they would take the utmost pride in their equipment when available.
Being used as the surgical knife of the Empire, they are more than capable of hit and run targets of value. Even if that target is material. Skill and deception need to replace brute force and power. Camouflage, snipers, fully armored scouts, fast and deadly. The Mantis is a patient killer – disguise with lethal precision.
Support is more difficult. I would guess that the majority of marines not killed in battle are capable of living out the hundred years. The human support element of the chapter most likely would not, so I’d go with more mechanical support – like servitors and automation. Innovation is spurred with change.
Replacement is harder, but missions and targets of opportunity can be chosen to minimize causalities. Tough units in combat zone scan remain in the field for long time with the right training. Because they can’t recruit; those that live the 100 years are probably the toughest SOB (not sisters of battle) or the luckiest of them. Maybe all the troop choices are veteran status. They would all live to restore their honor but have to be calculated enough to adjust their tactics to make it happen otherwise the chapter is for naught.
Whatever you decide remember they are foremost Space Marines and seek to restore their name. Thus they will try harder.
My 2 cents



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and the earlier codex that shows them changing the color of their armor to fit their mission. what better example!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 21:53:21


Post by: Malika2


Include a higher number of veterans in your force to represent the fact that they're all so tough as hell. The troops could be filled with two units of scouts with snipers.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 22:17:13


Post by: Llamahead


Theres some nifty stuff for the Mantis Warriors here http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2008/07/bols-mini-dex-downloads-archive.html it's probably what Malika linked already however. Personally I thought that most of the rebels after the Badab War were sent bug hunting and ran almost straight down the maw of Leviathan, I know thats what happened to the Lamenters. I'd personally steer clear from using chaos bits myself. I'd also consider using Telion and Sternguard as they seem to fit the silent sniper stereotype the best of the Power armoured troops. I'd also consider toning down the battle damage remember these are holy relics as well as weapons and the last thing a penitent should do is profane his sacred symbol of the Emperors might the blessed Bolter.....In medieavel history the colour of Tan was often used to represent penitence. Hope that helps. Grey Deaths also doing a big Badab war blog on Dakka as well which might help.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/19 22:58:01


Post by: Grey Knight Luke


As some of these guys were talking it reminded me of how the Black Templars operate, they have no homeworld (although they can recruit) and they have a flagship, which provides much of the resources that are needed. Maybe the Mantis Warriors work like that (as others have said). I was just trying to point out that Space Marines HAVE done it.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/20 03:44:36


Post by: Gitsplitta


Darn it you guys are spoiling all my best ideas!!! Cut it out!

*grin*

One last "set up" post.... then we start sinking our teeth into the chapter proper. Keep the ideas coming, they're wonderful... but I'm not quite ready to address most of them just yet.

There is one other component that I think would be necessary for a chapter to develop in order to survive this kind of ordeal... that is that they would have to become extremely resourceful and experts at saving men and machines. To survive, they would excel at stopping the forces of attrition and wear. No casualties would be "acceptible losses", no machinery could be abandoned on the battlefield, equipment that was no longer vital would be adapted to other uses. Of course there would be casualties and lost equipment, but I think the Mantis Warriors would become more adept at healing the wounded, fixing or modifying machinery and developing tactics that eschewed open battles or prolonged engaugements than a normal chapter would ever need to be. I imagine that each squad would have one member that was trained as an apothecary (medic), and one as a techmarine... so immediate battlefield triage of men a machinery could take place as needed. Much like a medic in a modern military system is a stop-gap between the wounded solder and the doctor or surgeon, the specialist troopers serve to insure the casualty (man or machine) survies to receive the attention of the full apothecary of techmarine. In game terms this wouldn't matter much, though if a command squad was chosen, I would say upgrading one to an apothecary would be mandatory... and taking techmarines, MoTF, etc would be a preferred HQ or elite choice. In modeling terms, I would denote the specialists in each unit by giving one marine an apothecary shoulder pad and one a techmarine's shoulder pad.

Now this is where things get a bit dicey from a herasy perspective. I would think that the mantis warriors would have had to develop some kind of real engineering skills in order to maintain, modify and re-purpose the machinery they had. Not just follow the standard templates, say a prayer over the thing and hope for the best... but be able to take that irrevocably crippled husk of a predator, salvage what bits the could from it, and use them to modify, improve or maintain the rest of their equipment. No big deal for we 21st c. people... but I think it would have been a huge deal for marines steeped in ritual, superstition, zealous faith and ignorance. I don't have any real plan for representing this in the game (though it does tie in with another point we'll discuss down-the-line), but it does seem like an important factor... and worth mentioning.

Special Rules:
While I'm not going to use any special rules with my Mantis Warriors, I have thought about it from time to time... and will mention my ideas as appropriate. I tend to favor minor, subtle effects that are more fluff than "super-powers"... but still add to the flavor of the chapter.

"The Watchful Eye" - As they know they are being directly scrutinized by the cannoness, any MW units within 12" of the cannoness get to re-roll any failed leadership tests.
"Masters of Recovery" - After any battle where "kill points" are counted, the superior medical and technical triage capabilities of the Mantis Warriors allow them to "save" one infantry unit and one vehicle or vehicle squadron, removing those kill points from the opponents total. This effect may not be used to keep a destroyed unit or vehicle on the battlefield as the benefit of the expertise is not evident until after the battle's end.

I apologize if my argument isn't a cogent as usual... it's been a long day.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/20 07:23:24


Post by: Grey Knight Luke


You NEED to pick up the witch hunters codex. I know that the cannoness has faith points which she can use to do all sorts of special "faithy" things.

OR (mods delete if it happens to be outside of the realm of acceptable web talk)
go to scribd.com in the search box type in warhammer 40k witch hunters codex, and you will be able to view the witch hunters dex for the purpose of later purchasing. In no way would this be an appropriate substitute for the book. Because we need to pay for things that Games Workshop distributes to us. We don't ever want to use information freely available to us.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/20 08:27:06


Post by: Tek


The only other non-Codex troops mentioned are the elite 'praying mantidae'. This elite cadre are selected from the most driven and pious members of the chapter and live for the sole purpose of hunting the Red Corsairs in order to bring honour back to the chapter. They are recognisable by snake-like tattoos covering their body, extending high up their necks.

Though a successor chapter, Mantis Warrior gene-seed is unusual and is rumoured to allow the Mantis Warriors to enter a haze-like state in which the warrior's perception of space and time are slowed down, allowing him to react and fight at an accelerated speed. This battle haze is a permanent state and the marine is caught in it until he dies. Their melee combat is also helped by the notched adamantine blades attached to the lower arm armour.


That sounds like the Blood Angels right there! :-D


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/20 08:40:26


Post by: gretar


Your sons thread is amazing, and so is this one alreadt


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/20 10:32:12


Post by: Gitsplitta



Though a successor chapter, Mantis Warrior gene-seed is unusual and is rumoured to allow the Mantis Warriors to enter a haze-like state in which the warrior's perception of space and time are slowed down, allowing him to react and fight at an accelerated speed. This battle haze is a permanent state and the marine is caught in it until he dies.


I'll be honest with you... this makes NO military sense at all, and would have been excised from the gene-seed as a "lethal mutation".


Try this slight modification instead...

Though a successor chapter, Mantis Warrior gene-seed is unusual and is rumored to allow the Mantis Warriors to enter into a haze-like state in which the warrior's perception of space and time are slowed down, alowing him to react at greatly accelerated speed. In game terms, if a Mantis Warrior receives a charge after a turn in which he did not move, the Mantis Warrior will always strike first, regardless of the relative initiatives involved. While in this quiescent state, distracting techniques such as the use of banshee masks or frag grenades have no effect, though physically massive weapons such as power fists still retain their effect on initiative.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/20 15:45:18


Post by: Tek


Well actually I was thinking you could use it for counts-as Death Company, considering it sounds an awful lot like the Black Rage, which in turn makes NO military sense at all.

Don't get all sciency about it, becuase fusing together a man's ribcage makes no logical sense either, but it's awesome so who cares.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/20 15:59:51


Post by: Demonslayer82


I reckon the Mantis Warriors would....

A: As someone said before scavenge materials everything they have is taken from another source mainly traitor armour that has been reconsecrated the icons removed I wouldnt believe that the Chapter would have a colour scheme more that they would look really archaic I should imagine that they would also wear terror markings their armour would also be dented and smashed scratched as well.

B: No vehicles they have been living on their feet in the penitence crusade they upped and left leaving the armour behind however they would make extensive use of devestators these would have massively archaic weaponary such as heavy bolters and weird combi weapons

C: No or very little access to the first company i.e one experienced squad that forfills the role of Veteran and Terminator squad they are almost like ghostly legendary warriors very battle worn and scarred loads of trophys their Terminator armour would have plates and rivets very hastenly repaired they would also have access to arcane weaponary found within the Maelstrom.

I hope this helps just a few ideas bashed out...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/20 16:11:35


Post by: Gitsplitta


Tek,

no offense intended... I appreciate your thoughts. Just seemed like a good opportunity to suggest an alternate approach. Sorry if my post was inelegant. And your last point is very well taken...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/20 21:45:25


Post by: Gitsplitta


Afternoon all.

One thing I'd like to remind everyone of up front, is that unlike most other chapters... the Mantis Warriors have undergone tremendous change over the last 100 or so years, and what the army would look like would vary tremendously depending on what stage of "the ordeal" you chose to represent. Badab War, Crusade, Return, Early Recovery and Late Recovery armies would all have consistent themes, but would look, play and feel very different. All are equally valid, they just represent different incarnations of the chapter. Many of the great suggestions are not fully appropriate for the stage I have chosen to portray (Early Recovery), being more focused on the Crusade or Return stages. That being said... elements or themes from those suggestions can be carried over into my version of the Mantis Warriors.

Before beginning the first real discussion of what the army should look like and what general theory of battle they would employ... I reviewed the whole blog from start to finish, writing down ideas that I thought worked well together, and worked with my existing ideas. I'll be the first to admit that some of these are going to make life tough (no psychers... Waaaaaaah!), BUT... they make loads of sense, and I love a challenge. I'm not going to try to cite the posters... but here is a synopsis of my notes (more like bullet points).

reliance on drop pods
gurilla tactics
avoid pitched battles
move fast, mobile, nimble
no psychers
skill & deception vs. brute force
snipers, armored scouts
lots of veterans
telion, sternguard
no vehicles, living on their feet
limited first company

The Crusade

My thought has been that the pursuit of the Astral Claws by the Mantis Warriors would be a prolonged, viscious, deeply personal, high-stakes game of cat and mouse played out amongst the remote worlds, airless moons, asteroid belts and shattered planetoids at the outskirts of the maelstrom. The AC's trying to get to a large, safe-haven in the depths of the chaotc reaches of space... and the Mantis Warriors constantly harassing them, probing, sabotoging, cutting off fuel and supply lines, blocking their advance, crippeling potential chaotic allies with percision strikes from the depths of space. With steath, guile and the careful application of overwhelming force preventing their adversaries from joining with other chaos legions or forming alliances that would render the Crusade impossible... dooming the Mantis Warriors to be forever outcasts.

Like their namesake, they would sit still and quiet, invisible and motionless in the inky blackness of deep space until the time came to strike with incredible speed and fury to deal the death blow. No bases or fortresses would be their home, nothing to hold them down or give the forces of chaos a place to strike. They would live from their ships, harrying the Astral Claws, raiding to get supplies, and punnishing any who offered the Claws assistace... until the Astral Claws themselve's would become a pariah to their own kind. The Astral Claws would be shunned because to treat with them would be to invite disaster at the nearly invisible hands of the Mantis Warriors. All this would further hamper the AC's attempts to find safe haven and escape their doom.

As such, every unit in the Mantis Warrior army must be capable of either deep striking, teleporting or coming down in a drop pod. All wheeled or tracked vehicles would have been mothballed. Eventually... as materials & supplies dwindled... the vehicle's physical forms and machine spirits were consecrated and re-purposed to those uses better fitting the Chapter's new motus-operendi. Planetfall would become their way of life. Appear suddenly and with overwhelming force, strike a crippling blow, scavenge whatever they can and disappear into the inky blackness of space before any coordinated defense can be mounted.

So many of these battles took place in deep space or airless, dead rocks that at first the loss of their scouting class was hardly noticible. The fully armored veteran snipers of the Tranquility campaign took care of most of the scouting and assasination duties and the scout-trainees eventually filled the ranks of the tactical squads as normal battle brothers. Time went on... and in spite of all the efforts of the chapter to minimize losses by improving their asset recovery and only enguage when they had overwhelming force supieriority... the losses mounted. Worst hit were the front-line assault troops and the venerated first company, who did most of the heavy lifting for the chapter. Men died. Other men were transferred from tactical operations to these units to fill the ranks most needed... and as the men "filtered forward" through the system into these most needed, and most valuable roles... the lack of new recruits manifested itself over time in an almost total absence of tactical marines. The tactical center of the chapter had been siphoned off to feed the slow but steady losses incurred by the assault troops and the hallowed veterans in their tactical dreadnought armor. What remained was probably the single most deadly strike force in the history of mankind... an entire chapter of elite veterans focused on a single goal, a single way of battle... but totally incapable of holding ground against any concerted assult. There was "attack" and "withdraw"... but the wherewithall to "defend" had been nearly lost to them.

With the Chapter's "center" depleated, it was only a matter of time before the outer shell, no matter how elite... crumbled. It was at this juncture, the very brink of oblivion... that the Emperor's forgiveness was finally granted... and the Mantis Warriors were called home.

-finis-

*whew* That's it for now... my brain's fried. I didn't really intend to write any fluff but it just kinda came out. Guess we'll have to talk shop later on and sort this all out in game terms. I like it though... a bit heroic... a bit over-the-top... just the way it should be for space marines. Still a lot of things on my list that this doesn't cover... but we can save that for later. Best - GS



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/20 22:08:25


Post by: Malika2


So you will model power armoured snipers and such? What about the rules though?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/20 22:24:42


Post by: Gitsplitta


Sternguard... they're perfect for it. Not true scouts but the truest representation of the Tranquility snipers I'll ever find, veterans too... so it's a close-to-perfect fit. I have my first 4 "experimental" conversions in-process. I was resisting the urge to post a pic until I was really in a position to mess with my figures... but I'll relent since I already have a pic in my gallery.

First, one of the guns... thought a "sniping" bolt gun should be a little more "snipy looking" and since I don't really buy that just changing ammo can increase performance as drastically as GW indicates, I decided to fiddle with the guns for my Sternguard/Tranquilty Snipers a bit.



And here are my first 4 conversion attempts for the Sternguard/Tranquility Snipers. They are not complete... just the basics to see if my ideas would work. The two in the center were by far the hardest to do, but I think are also the best looking.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 03:35:27


Post by: IceAngel


One thing I think would fit into your "fluff" that you could show in your army list is that the Mantis Warriors would most likely use only the most reliable of weapons. I wouldn't see them fielding things like plasma weapons much at all. If your Mantis Warriors were going to be great at scavenging, have you thought about putting small hitches or cranes, or other mechanical devices on what remaining tanks you plan on fielding?

I think the idea of having no scouts and minimal tactical squads would definitely fit the Mantis Warrior back ground.

I am not sure how you would fit this into an actual game, but from a fluff stand point I wonder if the Mantis Warriors would field more servitors just to have added guns on the field. They wouldn't be used for your surgical strikes or fast attacks, but it would certainly seem that they would use them for defense set ups to represent that the real back bone of the army is out and about while a smaller unit backed with servitors would hold positions, just a thought.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 04:30:59


Post by: Malika2


What will you be using for heavy support though? Devastators?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 05:03:23


Post by: Grey Knight Luke


Alright. So I know you are either going to probably hate me for this, but when exactly would this be? I know that we are mild fluffbots talking about this and we might just say it doesn't matter but, wouldnt you have to use mainly the earlier armor types? It just came to me when you were posted the snipers.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 05:38:10


Post by: Malika2


Why earlier armour types? The earlier armour types were more common during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy. Afterwards you will mostly see Mk7 armour. The older suits are considered to be holy relics of a sorts because they originate from that olden time, eventhough the Mk7 suit would still be superior.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 07:37:43


Post by: Grey Knight Luke


oh ok. well I guess I am mistaken.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 14:55:17


Post by: Gitsplitta


Uugh... need more coffee....

Keep in mind that the fluff up there only takes you up to the "Return" stage of the chapter's history, i.e. what they would have looked like the when they first straggled back into Imperial space. The stage I am interested in is "Early Rebuilding", several years down the line when some of the most critical needs would have begun to be addressed, but the crusading charachter of the army would still dominate.

Heavy support would come in the way of dreadnoughts, with MoTF to field as heavies, thunderfire cannons, multi-meltas on land-speeders and dev's. Plenty to work from there. I've been fielding vehicle-less armies for years and never really missed them until 5th Ed came out with rules that are so slanted towards them. However, I believe that nearly any build can be mid-level competative if you think it through and play it correctly. Fire support dreds can be probelmatic for an opponent with their ability to move and fire, use cover and "disappear" behind a relatively small piece of sight-blocking terrain. They also look great on the tabletop.

The question for me during the recovery is: would the Mantis Warriors be in a huge rush to be what they were before the start of the crusade, or would they embrace their new military philosophy and simply use their new assets to shore up their ranks and equipment? At this point I'm leaning toward the second option as they would realize how good they had become in their particular role, they would have seen their successes... they just ran out of men and materials.

So what would an early recovery period MW army look like?

Here are some of my ideas. I welcome as aways your comments and suggestions. Believe it or not my thoughts on aspects of this have changed quite a bit based on the feedback I've gotten already, so I appreciate the effort folks are putting in... though I get the feeling I've lost a lot of people by perhaps taking things in a different direction than they would have. But I'll keep soldiering on until it looks like I'm just blogging to myself.

HQ: I think I'll table this for now. While HQ is important... it's not really a rebuilding thing, besides we've already discussed some ideas so I'll leave this go for now.

(I don't have a codex at the moment so I'm doing this from memory, please forgive if I omit or misstate something.)

Elites
Dreadnoughts: Close support for assaut and tactical squads, typically drop pod deployed. Venerables, Iron Clads, maybe the FW chaplain dread for fun... any dreadnoughts that survived in this particular role in the army would be gods of battle. Heavily damaged, highly decorated... keeping these old boys going might be where you'd really see some serious application of scavenged chaos parts.
Techmarines: As previously discussed, these would play a vital role in keeping he chapter alive and kicking.
Sternguard: These guys are my Tranquility Snipers and one of the signature units of the army. Old armor, old style equipment, lots of purity seals and terminator honors. Because of their "sniper" role, I see their Mk 6 armor as being largely in-tact... though worn and battle-scarred.
Terminators: These are one of the troop types that in my mind would have been badly depleated during the crusade. Both men and armor would have been lost, and many of the losses would have been catostrophic and irrecoverable (high-energy weapons that would have completely destroyed the marine and his armor, like meltas, etc.). My thoughts at the moment are to have a few terminators in the older style armor, badly damaged, scarred and/or repaired, representing the few surviving original suits. The rest of the marines would be in new armor provided by the imperium to make the squads viable again. Because of the near all-veteran status of the surviving chapter, finding men worthy of filling these suits of armor would not be difficult.

Troops
Tactical Squads: As stated in the fluff there aren't many of these guys left in the role of tactical marines... most filtered through the system long ago to accept more vital responsibilities given the chapter's modified tactics, or replaced casualites. Those few that are left probably have equipment that is in decent shape, though scarred and worn. You might see some interesting field repairs or use of scavenged equipment in this lot.
Scouts: An early recovery MW army would be crawling with scouts. Probably 1/2 to 3/4 of any troop deployment should be scouts of one sort or another. Because they were monitoring them, the Imperium would have known well in advance that the Mantis Warriors would return, and they'd have known what shape the chapter would be in. They would have had to make some accomodation for an emergency recruitment of suitable marine stock. I don't have a clear idea for this, but there are several options.. give the MW's back their home world, find a suitable feral world with a human population they can use, who knows? Any ideas about this would be most welcome. I would think that the chapter would have plenty of scout equipment in perfect shape (since it hadn't been used in nearly a century), unless it had been scavenged for other purposes (like my Sternguard rifle conversions for example).

Fast Attack
Vanguard Assault Squad: The MW assault squads would have suffered the same fate as it's terminators, as they were heavily used throughout the Crusade and pivotal to the success of the new battle strategy. At the time of The Return, most of the assault suits had been lost, what was left... was here. This is another "signature unit" for the army, though it does not have the official history of the Tranquility snipers. The best shock troops in an army that exemplifies this battle tactic. Their eqipment is original... venerated, scarred to the point of near disfunction & repaired with the armor of their victims. Armed with special weaponry that mimics the arms of the praying mantis... conversion and modeling possibilities are endless.
Assault Squads: Very few original assault configuration armor suits survive in the Mantis Warriors outside of the Vanguard. With a very few exceptions, mantis warrior assault squads have been provided with brand new armor. They fight with less powerful versions of the "mantis arms" used by the Vanguard, but are still fast and deadly as one would expect of any assault marine.
Land Speeder Tempests: Outflanking transports to support scouting operations and pop opposing, rearward deployed heavy support.
Land Speeders: In the Mantis scheme Multi-melta armed LS squadrons are critical in evening the balance of battle by eliminating the oppositions heavy armor.
Bikes: This'll be a fun one. I have been carefully hoarding 5-7 OLD space marine jet bikes for like.... 18 years. They're unpainted & in bits. They fit the fluff (being that a jet bike could reasonably deep-strike, and the MW's increased engeneering abilities and frequent contact with eldar Crone world forces could have allowed them to figure out how to re-activate the ancient technology). To be consistent with the rules I'll just use them as regular bikes, and will probably build two sets of riders for them... one full marine, one scout. For those of you who have never seen them... imagine a space marine riding a Vespa and you've pretty much got the mental image. Somewhere I think I even have one of the tiny, orignal land speeders that I'll field along with them as an attack bike.

Heavy Support
Dreadnought - Fire Support Configuration: Provided by MoTF in this role, TL Lascannons & RLs. Though certainly scarred from battle... my thinking is that these will be in generally better shape than the close-support models and that normal dreadnoughts will suffice. Always lots of good options for fun conversions and stuff with the dreds... so we'll see how things go when we get there.
Thunderfire Cannon: Dropable, tech marine supported... gives them a little blast template action. They remind me of some of the old 40k stuff that's not around any more... so I think the "feel" is right.
Devastators: I'll be honest, I've never really used dev's much... guess I'd better figure it out darn quick considering my limited options in this part of the FOA. Anyone up to writing some good fluff or suggesting a focus for them? I got nothin' at the moment...







Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 15:10:33


Post by: whalemusic360


I'd agree with the no plasma, because fluff wise they have been doing this for awhile and its just the surviving guys. They would have rolled a "one" by now for sure


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 15:38:37


Post by: Disjointed Entity


This is sounding to be an amazing army that you're going for here, I can't wait till it gets going.

With what you were saying about the Mantis Warriors just starting to "rebuild", as it takes a few years for full Astartes to be battle ready (as I understand it) maybe you're force would look good with some Tac squads but a few Guard units too that have been side-tracked to aid the MW until they are back to strength?

Just a thought


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 16:03:42


Post by: geordie09


Hi, if you are planning on using a dread maybe you'd like to check out stalktank in the gallery by davetaylor! It'd suit your purposes well and avoid using the regular Dread style miniatures!

Hope it is suitable for your purposes!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 16:50:40


Post by: Disjointed Entity


Had an after thought about my idea, if you went with the Guard 'helpers' it would make sense to fluff wise to have them as an Airmobile unit, moving in after the immediate LZ has been cleared by the MW.

Sorry for threadjacking


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 17:38:53


Post by: Gitsplitta


Wow, a giant mechanized praying mantis! I could see something like that as a venerable or iron clad dread with wings that "act" like the drop pod. Be a good vehicle for what's left of the chapter master... (assuming he's still around... hadn't thought that far ahead).

Shall I point out at this time how insanely beyond my abilities that is???

Nice suggestion though... wayyy cool.



The Guard "helpers" idea is kind of a neat one, but can that be done legally? You're right... it would be very fluffy and is pretty logical.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 17:41:31


Post by: whalemusic360


LOL all I can picture is a giant robot Zorak!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 17:50:48


Post by: Gitsplitta


Don't you DARE go there!!!

*snicker*


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 18:06:24


Post by: Malika2


What about instead of Imperial Guard helpers you have the Chapter Serves? These are servants who work for the Chapter, you know control the ships, arm the turrets, write everything down. Many of them are aspirant Marines who didn't make their training/transformation but are still alive to serve the chapter.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 20:17:09


Post by: Gitsplitta


Couple of rather important P & M questions for you guys.

Multiple people have suggested using battle damage and scavenged equipment for field repairs to represent the wear and tear on the MW's surviving crusader units. I think these are great ideas, but they do pose some problems...

1. As to battle damage. As Solar_Lion has already pointed out, soldiers lives depend on the quality and repair of their equipment. I'm related to 3 current soldiers and know this to be true from their perspectives. So why would severe battle damage be allowed to exist on your personal armor for any period of time (like a 100 year campaign)... many of us add battle damage to our models, and it looks great... but a marine would keep his armor and weapons it top condition, wouldn't he? So how do we rationalize all this battle damage? I know it's kind of a nit-picky question, but by now you guys know that the "why of it" is very important to me. Is it a lack of resources? Might be for the MW's but certainly not other chapters... Do they not know how to repair the armor, buff out the scratches, fill in the gaps? Seems a bit preposterous... but I'm open to suggestion. Would the MW's increased recovery/repair ability alter this in any way... or would they be as handicapped as everyone else? Or would there only be recent battle damage visible that had not been repaired yet?

2. When considering using chaos marine equipment to repair damaged MW equipment... as no marine in their right mind would ever wear a chaos insignia or symbol, we must assume (as suggested) that they would remove the existing symbology. Once that's done... is there any difference between the chaos stuff and normal equipment? I'm just wondering if chaos armor or weapons without the insignia is just basically normal marine stuff... in which case what's the point of making an effort to use chaos bits in the conversions?

3. If there is a compelling reason to use chaos bits... would they have re-painted it to match their armor (they must have green paint), or would they have left it au-naturale as a trophy and a slap-in-the-face to the Astral Claws?

4. Having now returned and with the reconstruction of the chapter under weigh... would they keep the battle damage and replaced parts as proof of their ordeal, or would these things be "put right" by whatever part of the Imperial support net that does such things.







Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 20:27:58


Post by: BLACKHAND


If you go the route of using the cannoness as an actual cannoness from the witch hunter codex then you are able to use Inquisitorial stormtroopers as troop choices, these could be painted to represent your freshly inducted guard on their way to full brotherhood, plus they get carapace armour as opposed to flack and you can give their sergeants a ton of different gear from the witch hunter armoury so there is opportunity for conversion AND its legal.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 20:37:04


Post by: Gitsplitta


All-right Blackhand you've got me convinced... will pick up that codex next pay day. Cool idea... and my scout percentage could be a bit smaller because the guard troops could help "cover" that aspect to a degree (which is probably more consistent with the "how tough it is to become a marine" fluff). I might eliminate the tac squads all together and adjust the fluff to say they'd been totally absorbed into the specialist & elite units... necessitating the immediate recall of the Mantis Warriors (in game terms... no troops).

I thought I'd heard a rumor that they were going to ki-bosh the whole allies thing completely.... hate to put in all this work to have it snuffed in the next Ed or worse... but some off-handed comment in a WD. Any thoughts?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 20:58:16


Post by: Grey Knight Luke


you have to have at least 2 troops from the Space Marines Codex.

As far as rumors in GW go, I take all of it with a grain of salt (personally I don't think the WH are going to be redone anytime soon).

In regards to your why battle damage question, I would argue two things. 1) mostly when we paint models it is not to be the pristine, Just got done fixing my armor route (although some people do this), we paint them to look as they would in the middle of the fight. Thats why I have battle damage on my models.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 21:02:39


Post by: BLACKHAND


LOL, please beleive that I am not in any way a GW pimp just trying to put up ideas!
As to the allies being dropped I have no idea, in the end I have trouble beleiving that GW would axe two entire armies from 40k and as both inquisition arms can not function in their pure forms they kind of need the allies rule.
I am highly invested in this as well, owning a GK force and an IG force which I mix together a lot when making lists but I have decided to just keep doing my thing and worry about a codex change when and IF I hear it is on the way. Sorry for the wall of text just trying to answer a slightly unanswerable question


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 21:13:52


Post by: steempunk


I'm sure Marines are fully capable of doing minor battlefield repairs, but things such as wax/paint/varnish may not be deemed as important a focus. Your Warriors' could have a scuffed/tarnished appearance but still be completely battle ready.

I suppose it would be the job of a Tech-marine to reconsecrate the chaos armour? Since most CSM are a good deal older than current SM their armour would most likely be from earlier models (mk 4, 5, 6).

I could see your Vanguard Assault Squad keeping the original chaos colors as trophies, seeing as they fulfill a kind of hunter/predator role. This might also be possible for your Tranquility Snipers, although it may defeat their ability to be camouflaged.

New Marines would be given newer armour, but I could see most of the veterans retaining their kill trophies and workable battle-field repairs as a point of pride, to show that they toiled for their forgiveness.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 21:31:01


Post by: Maj.Winters


1. I agree with you about them maintaining their armor. I just read Horus Rising and it struck me that after EVERY engagement, they buff out their armor and have the servitors take care of the very bad damage. Now assuming they are low on servitors, they must do the repairs themselves. Considering that they probably have to spend MORE time doing repairs, I would actually say that they are very good at repairs on an individual level. You might do a bit of dust to show the grime from that current mission (probably only light dusting). But I think their armor would be in good condition. I'm sure they would have green paint. Maybe do some paint in slightly different shades to show them painting with different batches. Or separate pieces in slightly different shades.

2. I think they shouldn't use ANY Chaos equipment. If I was serving a penitent crusade, I wouldn't even think of pretending to dabble with anything Chaos related. Even though Chaos equipment is essentially old Imperial stuff, it has seen years of Chaos use. I would assume the ruinous powers would slowly permeate the items, even pieces of armor. I think filling down the Chaos symbols and adding Imperial iconography also wouldn't cut it. I see it like putting the Nazi symbol on the crate that held the Arc of the Covenant (a-la Indiana Jones).

3. IF you decide that they would re-use Chaos, I think they would be so thorough about repairing, cleansing, painting etc. that it would be indistinguishable from normal Imperial issue. Modeling-wise, I don't think it would be worth doing. Or, maybe show picked up pieces of armor strapped to them that they plan on fixing up later.

Example: A marine modeled without a right gauntlet has a Chaos right gauntlet strapped to his back, showing that he wants to take it back and re-fit it.

4. I think they should be put right. If they have absolved themselves, they should now have full (if reluctant) Imperial material support. I think that even if you say they used re-fitted Chaos stuff, it was only permissible considering the situation. They would try to fix that as soon as possible.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 21:37:23


Post by: steempunk


One question, what is the current strength of the chapter?

Assuming they were codex they started the Badab War with around 1000 marines. They probably lost many Marines during the war, then had to go on the Crusade...so...

Are we talking less than 500 marines left? Less than 200?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 22:04:47


Post by: Gitsplitta


If you don't count the new scouts... I've been kind of mentally operating on a nebulous figure of less than 300 marines. The more this thread has developed though, and I've been able to sharpen my focus with everyone's help... that number may be shrinking some to the lower 200 range. Marines are incredibly resilliant (sp?), so to really portray the chapter as crippled and on the brink of extinction... I think the numbers would have to be pretty low.

Holy crap! At that level I could almost model the entire chapter! Almost.... not sure I'm quite that motivated.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 22:08:39


Post by: Malika2


Use the storm troopers to represent the Chapter Serves. I doubt the Imperial Guard would go along fighting with these Space Marines. It's just the chapter that was sent on exile, not the Imperial Guard.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 23:01:29


Post by: Arakasi


Random thoughts...

I know you are going Codex Space Marines - but counts as Space Wolves might be a good fit. With limited 1st company, you could assign them to units like Wolf Guard rather than their own units. Blood Claws might fit the retooling of the chapter to replace Tactical Squads. And you get Veteran Scouts. Not sure how to explain Berserk Charge, Head Strong and Counter Attack though...

Agree that I wouldn't expect excessive battle damage. I might expect a bit rougher around the edges though - with limited resources, keeping the paintwork pristine wouldn't be my first priority - and doesn't affect its effectiveness. In fact, it may add to their uniform/camouflage/ability to infiltrate the enemy (who also might not be concentrating on such things...)

There would be nothing stopping them painting their armour (or pieces of it) similar to the enemy if it gave them an advantage - just don't know how far you want to vary from the scheme in your first pictures...

Enough rambling from me



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/21 23:35:41


Post by: Solar_lion


I agree with the Major.

Several points. Squad definition. With so few marines ( you mentioned 200 - 300) I'm not convinced that there would be a need nor practically to limiting your remaining forces to specific roles. I think more of the BT concept. Here’s why... the smaller the force the more flexible it needs to become. If an assault was required the decision to field as many assault troops as possible would require the chapter to pass out chainsword to anyone who can carry one the opposite in a siege with heavy weapons. This doesn't the whole force, there still has to be troops ( as with the siege idea ) to repel enemy troops from sallying out. History prove you cannot have all attack or defense. What it the limiting factor. Manpower.

Like you said maybe the dreads provide long range support in an assault while all hand are on deck for the assault. Whatever it take to accomplish the objective! I see the MW as a flexible, objective based veteran army, before the fast and violent. Look at the templar’s book, how they are crusade based. I think this is more where the MW are coming FROM.

Scavenge Items. Again I go back to the fundamentals. First and foremost they are Marines, They are the elite of the Imperium. I would stay away from Chaos items for two reasons. One they are already held in suspicion ( they will be under the eye of the Imperium ). The remainder of the chapter knows full well (as they were there) the crimes for which they were and perhaps still judged for. Second... they have a hatred for chaos , this was the source of their almost fall into damnation. They would consider this to be taboo and anyone using such equipment would be a painful reminder of their dishonor. Tight units police themselves. They would be more rigorous than most chapters. Even trophies would be handled in the most open and by the book manner. " To adopt the weapons and apparel of the enemy is to become the enemy."

The universe is a big place and other races material would not be so overlooked. That's why I was thinking the rare stuff. Dreads and terminator armor. I like the jet bike as bikes. Nice use of “ a different era” that will make your army unique looking. Suggestion” used stuff not “damaged stuff”. Stuff that looks warn and has been through the test. Lots of purity seals. Like a favorite weapon concept.

Up to 4 Cents now.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 01:45:55


Post by: Malika2


Chaos items are used in the Imperium. The Space Wolves are famous for it, not just the 13th Company. Chaos weapons have been purified, so has a Chaos ship. The Ultramarines are probably the most famous fellows who use Chaos equipment, where do you think Marneus Calgar's Gauntlets of Ultramar come from?

Some equipment might be scavenged, purified and reused to replace lost equipment. You might model this by having lots of purity seals on certain pieces of equipment.

I guess that because of this Chaplains would also be more common, they would be needed to keep all the Marines pure. So perhaps a mandatory Chaplain HQ?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 01:47:52


Post by: Maj.Winters


Even tho there is use of Chaos items, I don't think the Mantis are in a position to dabble. AND I doubt they would have the rigorous purification process needed.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 02:32:01


Post by: Malika2


What exactly is this purification process?

But perhaps you are right on this, especially with an agent from the Inquisition watching them all the time.

I think for that reason alone that the Mantis Warriors would have more Chaplains, or at least have them present more!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 02:47:12


Post by: Gitsplitta


Hmmmm.... so let me review. No, that will take too long, let me sum up.

So it looks like I probably need to get my hands on the witchhunters, space wolf and templar dex's to give things a good going over. Some for fluff, some for possible allies and some for shifting my dex if a new one is more appropriate.

There seems to be pretty solid concensus that the MW's surviving crusade armor would be in good working order, and while worn... would not be excessively damaged.

Opinions are more varied on the use of chaotic equipment. Giving everyone's opinions a good read-through again... I'm leaning toward not using the chaos equipment *at this stage* in the chapter's development. I could see necessary battlefield repairs using whatever they could get to keep the chapter equipped... but I suspect the would have very purpousfully and deliberately purged all non-standard equipment from their armories and equipment during their return voyage in order to give the best possible first impression when they arrived home and to avoid the appearance of taint. I also suspect that directive would have been suggested by the cannoness herself.

Malika2: Are chapter serves in the codex anywhere? I don't remember ever seeing them. Remember that my one main rule is that the army must be completely legal... no made up units (though counts-as is fine for me). Your chaplain point is a good one, they just add nothing from a gaming perspective. I'm not unwilling to take one... just seems like of a waste of points when compared with some of the other options.

Solar_lion: I can't argue with your logic... but it kinda sucks the charachter out of the chapter because it's unit/manpower distribution will be just like any other vanilla chapter, just fewer men. What I was trying to get at was that the Mantis Warriors had essentially over-specialized to the point of non-viability. I wasn't really their fault... the circustances dictated their moves if they were ever going to emerge alive. Perhaps that's why the Templars *are* the Templars and cruising the imperium in decent shape, and the Mantis Warriors had to be brought home for emergency repair. The Mantis warrior "model", heroic as it was, was unsustainable and was doomed to fail. Something that the chapter heirarchy will need to address during the rebuilding process.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 03:01:16


Post by: Malika2


Are chapter serves in the codex anywhere? I don't remember ever seeing them. Remember that my one main rule is that the army must be completely legal... no made up units (though counts-as is fine for me). Your chaplain point is a good one, they just add nothing from a gaming perspective. I'm not unwilling to take one... just seems like of a waste of points when compared with some of the other options.

They are not an official unit in the Codex, they only appear in the background, more info on them can be found here.

If you are using the Witchhunter Codex you could simply count them as Stormtroopers to also reflect that they have access to superior equipment due to the Chapter and higher skills due to the limited genetic modification.

I don't recommend getting the Black Templars Codex, it's 4th edition if I'm not mistaken, the Space Wolves list is more up to date.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 03:05:12


Post by: Gitsplitta


Nope, you didn't... I was summarizing several folks posts. That rec came from a couple of others.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 03:17:42


Post by: Malika2


What about the Blood Angels Codex? If I'm not mistaken it has assault squads as troops, or at least Death Company who can field close combat weapons. You could build a very elite close combat oriented army with it.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 03:19:05


Post by: IceAngel


Hey Gitsplitta, I think you may have some of your questions answered soon. Check this out.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/coming-soon/Legends-of-the-Space-Marines.html

Third from the bottom.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 03:22:58


Post by: Gitsplitta


OH .... hmmmm.... that might flush this whole project in one, giant, swirly go.

damn




Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 03:31:50


Post by: steempunk


IceAngel wrote:Hey Gitsplitta, I think you may have some of your questions answered soon. Check this out.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/coming-soon/Legends-of-the-Space-Marines.html

Third from the bottom.


Wow, that could suck...C.S. Goto, the Destroyer of Fluff and coherent/entertaining book-writing authoring the return of the Mantis Warriors...

bummer



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 03:36:20


Post by: Malika2


Wasn't he so far the only one who has written about them in recent years?

You could always have your own take at their fluff. Great thing about 40k is that nothing is fully set in stone.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 04:30:06


Post by: IceAngel


wow, i almost feel bad for pointing it out, but you've got plenty of time before that book comes out. You also don't know what time frame the book is using. Please continue to do your thing.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 06:48:56


Post by: Arakasi


More random thoughts for "counts as" Space Wolves... wolves and thunderwolf cavalry. For a chapter where wargear and equipment is limited, having organic allies would be a plus (though I wouldn't know how to explain their time to make the connection - and I don't know any MW fluff). Swap wolves/thunderwolf cavalry for some type of insectoid creature (mantoid?) to play up the chapter name perhaps? Acute senses and tracking would seem to make sense too...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 13:22:20


Post by: Gitsplitta


Meh... I'm too stubborn to quit...it's just frustrating.

Should be a fun read in any case. Who knows? There might be some parallels in our stories then we think, and I'm sure he'll do a good job developing the main figures in the chaptr, which is something I haven't even considered yet. Here's hoping anyway...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Well friends, it seems that we've taken this aspect of the blog about as far as it can go for the moment, pending my doing some reasearch on various codexes and the options they represent. I appreciate everyone's input and putting up with page after page of text... but the insights and ideas you've provided have been tremendously helpful and have changed (for the better) and clarified my vision of the Mantis Warriors. Thank you. If you have any other thoughts on the issues we've been talking about, please post them... I'm not closing down discussion, just taking advantage of a natural lull.

Next I'll return to the modeling (finally... talk about a "wall of text"). I'll go back to the Sternguard figures I was working on before. Probably the standing beakie because I can reach everything on the figure easily and it will display the paint job well. I also will need to make a few combi-melta's for that squad that are consistent with the look (i.e. the sniper bits)... so that will be an interesting project as well.

Got a couple of questions for you / requests for help with the P&M...

1. While I've been painting marines for a long time, I was never particularly good at it. I know there are a lot of tutorials out there... I was just wondering what were everyone's favorites. I really want to do these right & will be painting each model individually rather than cranking out entire squads en-masse. As I'm kind of thick... a tutorial would probably do me more good than just an example of a finely painted figure.

2. As you're parousing the galleries... please keep your eyes open for figures where the armor looks "worn" rather than damaged. I think this is right on the mark as far as the look I want, but it would help if I had a few examples of the kinds of effects I was trying to create.

3. To enhance the "snipey" look of the Sternguard/Tranquility snipers, I thought I might model camo cloaks & hoods on them... but I'm not sure how to deal with the backpack/cloak interaction. Any ideas would be welcome.

Thanks!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 18:54:11


Post by: Disjointed Entity


In regards to the book, the Title doesn't nescacirly (apologies for spelling) that the MW are going to be declared Traitor, it could be routine for a force that has seen so much Warp action to be scrutinised for any possible Taint, so maybe this "Trial" is more of an examination of the Chapter, thier fighting styles, how they will fit into a changed Imperium and wether thier Gene-seed is still stable.
You could work around this if the MW returned just before the 12th/13th Black Crusade, the Imperium would need pretty much every avaliable soldier to be ready to fight, so the 'Trial' could have been postponed, or maybe even completely cancelled.

In regards to the Battle Damage, Grey Death's Sons of Medusa Marine :

and the first image on Migs Alpha Legion http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/233990.page


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 19:01:54


Post by: whalemusic360


Or they can be Pre-(their own)heresy MW
Or you can start playing CSM lol


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/22 20:46:16


Post by: Llamahead


Sons of Orars Sons of Orar are exceptionally weathered as well.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/23 13:01:30


Post by: Gitsplitta


I guess I'd kind of assumed that the "Trial" referred to their crusade for redemption... aka "trials and tribulations". My disappointment came in that whatever is in the book will effectively become "cannon" for the Mantis Warriors and anything I do, rather than being a neat exploration of an undefined chapter... will be relegated to some second-class, "you didn't like the right rules so you made up your own", alternate version of what the MW's are.

But you know... s*** happens. You get over it and move on.

If he has the MW's going to chaos... that would probably be a bigger issue because then my take would just not be a slightly different mock-up of the chapter but a radical change from what will become the defacto RAW.

Thanks for the suggestions... I'm checking out & subscribing to those threads right now. Is there a way to subscribe to a thread without actually posting to it?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/23 14:11:08


Post by: inmygravenimage


Click the subscribe button at the bottom left of the screen, bud.

Oh, and if cannon has them turn to chaos - maybe it's almost easier, yours are the last true MWs.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/23 14:19:04


Post by: Scarper


Just to say - before I started reading this thread, I had never heard of the Mantis Warriors. You guys have put forward an awesome synopsis, discussion and history; and now I feel like they have one of the best backgrounds out of the loyalist chapters. Great thread, I'll be watching


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/23 14:23:32


Post by: Gitsplitta


Thanks to you both! Sorry... still kindof a newbie at all of this.

Can't wait to get back to my mini's... have to start thinking about shades of green, washes, highlights and all that lot. After all of this talking and planning I need to build/paint something!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/23 19:37:36


Post by: Disjointed Entity


I didn't even think of your definintion of Trial, it actually molds into your fluff a lot better, that could definately be worked in


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 02:38:03


Post by: Gitsplitta


OK ... finally got to play with my fig's again...

Found some old, badly painted beakies that I got used. Figured since they'd have to be stripped before re-painting anyway that putting another coat of paint on them wouldn't hurt. Primed them white and started experimenting. These are quick and dirty... slop on paint and wash... just to choose color, nothing else. The actual figures will be much better done.

First pic shows the greens I tried. GW Scorpion Green, Valleo Light Green, GW Goblin Green and GW Snot Green



Then I painted up a couple of extra figures & tried out two washes, GW Thrakka Green and Valleo Shade Green. I don't like the Thrakka much because it has too much blue in it and has a tendency to overpower everything. If you let it settle for a few days, most of the blue settles out and it turns into a nice green wash. The Valleo I've never used before... it's less vibrant than the GW... more of a grass color. The Thrakka used here is normal (i.e. not settled down) as the kids were using my paints before hand and got it all shaken up.




The two on the far left are Scorpion Green with Valleo (left) and GW (right) washes.
The two in the middle are Light Green with Valleo (left) and GW (right) washes.
The next one is Goblin Green w/ GW wash.
The far right one is Snot Green w/ GW wash.

They are numbered for ease of referral... please let me know what you like.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 02:48:05


Post by: gretar


Im gonna refer to the secong picture when i say the darkest one and the one that #2 from the left are the best looking one IMO

That or the second darkest one(the one that #2 from the right)


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 02:51:26


Post by: starbomber109


I like #2 and #6 as well, they have good contrast, the others kinda look off, either too bright, or not bright enough.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 03:18:51


Post by: Alpharius


#4 and #5 and the ones that work for me...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 03:25:11


Post by: gretar


Btw, isn't there any trim/secondary colour on those MW? I think my oponion might change alot if I saw them with the trim colour on


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 03:49:15


Post by: Gitsplitta


There was no trim on Mk 6 armor... that was a development in Mk 7. No, if you refer to the original photos on this thread (the only official artwork ever done to my knowledge), they're all green. Badge is yellow, black & red.

The figs all look better in person than the camera allows. If you double click on the photo and look at it in the gallery where you can zoom in a bit... some of that shows up there.

My problem with #6 is that there is effectively no shading on it at all... it's just a solid dark blue/green.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 04:00:12


Post by: Munch Munch!


the best schemes are #2, #5 and #6.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 04:17:10


Post by: TheStomach44


I think that 2 looks the best at the moment, hard for me to picture the end product though


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 04:25:39


Post by: whalemusic360


I like 4 and 5. With some high lights they could look really nice. Have you tried starting dark and layering up? Like a Dark Angel Green to Goblin green, Washed and highlighted?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 04:43:03


Post by: Gitsplitta


Well, maybe these will help... I painted the one shoulder pad the original color so you can see what the washes did. As I said before, I'm not a very good marine painter so I'll be going through the "how to's" to try and do a decent job.











Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 04:46:02


Post by: gretar


Your washes are pooling at a pretty big scale right now..

Instead of splashing on a whole lot to get a dark shading, layer it slowly.If I take the one marked with the 4 on his base, three or four layers would probably get the same dark colour but without the pooling on his greaves and his head..


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 06:11:59


Post by: StubbyGB


I like 4, and 5, myself, but colour choice is always a very personal thing. I just say go with what you prefer.

Oh, and I think 1, and 2 should get extra points for their cool disco dancing poses.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 10:54:29


Post by: Limbo


3 and 4 looks the part imo, but for some reason I'm drawn to 1 and 2, dunno why, but they feel more like mantis warriors to me

I'm going by the pictures in the http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mantis_Warriors btw


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 13:11:35


Post by: Gitsplitta


I nicknamed 1 and 2 "the conga line".

If I go with the lighter base color (! & 2), they'll be using the same base as the Sons of Medusa chapter in the pic up above... which certainly gives me a lot of good source material and maybe a way to get painting advice. The Sons look beautiful, so I've got no problem with that. My existing MWs are a medium green, more like the original artwork... but it's a green that I haven't found a good way to reproduce with the currently available paints.

So the tally so far.

1 - 1 vote
2 - 6 votes
3 - 1 vote
4 - 5 votes
5 - 5 votes
6 - 2 votes

I've rewashed the shoulder pads using gretar's advice. 3 very careful washes, no pooling, etc. I won't post pics, but will use the results to educate my choice. Interesting that when you do that it's not so much a "wash" as a "tint" because you're not allowing the wash to do the pooling that results in the color gradient.

Having the models in-hand, I think I'll eliminate #'s 1 - 3. I know a lot of you liked #2, but in-hand even the re-done shoulder pad looked blotchy. Just too much variance between the base color and the wash, and few natural crevices in these old models for the wash to do what it's supposed to do. I actually think that #1 looked much better than #2. Either way, if I decide to go with the scorpion green base, I have the SoM blog to refer to... so I'm covered there. I don't think there was enough contrast with #3, so I'm dropping that one too.

I have two more paint/wash combinations that I want to try. I'll take more care with the wash on these so they'll give you a truer reflection of what one of my final models will look like. Who knows, I may end up relying on layering up rather than the wash to get my gradient as whalemusic suggested.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 13:49:26


Post by: Leigen_Zero


I'm gonna vote #2 and #6, looking forward to seeing some output!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 15:21:21


Post by: Gitsplitta


I think I might have it...


This is color variation #6... that would be... Snot Green (or Army Painter's green primer), with Thrakka Green wash. Closest to my existing MW colors. Then I started up-painting. First I hit all the main areas that would not be in shadow with the Snot Green, then I did 2 rounds of highlights. Since most folks seemed to really respond to the scorpion green, I used that as my "lightener" instead of skull white or one of the other greens. I like the effect, and the Scorpion Green pulls in that yellowish tint that is very nice. Unfortunately I can't stand working with scorpion green as, while it's a great color... is a lousy pigment to work with. Anyway, first highlight was roughly 1/3 Scorpion, 2/3 Snot, second highlight was 2/3 to 1/3 of the same.

I also painted the base and washed the metal bits in order to give the figure a more finished feel.




I could do another layer of blended highlighting, just at the very most exposed areas that would be most (or entirely) Scorpion Green. I haven't done any lining of the edges yet. Do you think I should? If so, what should I use... pure Scorpion Green... or if I blend to that, a lighter version of the SG?

As to why I'm not pursuing the Scorpion Green as my base... seem's to me that Grey Death's SoMs do that about as good as can be done. I don't just want to try and copy what he's done (besides I'd come out poorly in the comparison), but have something unique... not, dark angles, not SoM, not salamanders... something else. Which is gettin kinda tough because there are only so many distinct greens around.




Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 15:49:48


Post by: Limbo


I'm liking the latest model, really has an emerald feel to it if that makes any sense.

I think you're on the right track , and I have to agree that MW need a yellowish green, can't help you thought, not that good of a painter =(


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 17:50:07


Post by: gretar


Gitsplitta wrote: using gretar's advice.


Is it wierd that I got a slight satisfaction twist in my hip when reading that?

Anyways.. The newsest one looks really good, I think you should go with that one, has a sort of emerald shine to it


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 19:29:00


Post by: Munch Munch!


Newest one seems to be the best MW test model.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 19:34:50


Post by: Grey Knight Luke


I really like the way that it turned out! way better than it was before.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 19:51:38


Post by: Gitsplitta


Ladies and Gentleman... meet Brother Six,




I'll tell ya more about 'im later... but for now, I'll let the pic stand & just see how you like him. He is yellower in-person. I'm not sure why my camera isn't processing that correctly. Shame that.

Edit: changed the photo to one that's got a little better depth-of-field.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 19:54:29


Post by: Munch Munch!


Yes, yes, yes! That's definatley a great green!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 19:55:53


Post by: gretar


Munch Munch! wrote:Yes, yes, yes! That's definatley a great green!


True. true


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 20:11:23


Post by: StubbyGB


Yup that's a great green.

btw my own digital camera seems to enhance blues. maybe its just an oddity of the detector.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 20:14:29


Post by: Grey Knight Luke


hmmm is the image deleted? Dakka might be freaking out on me


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 20:21:43


Post by: thompie12


I like it very much i probably couldn´t have painted it like that.
Well done.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 20:24:18


Post by: Gitsplitta


Nope, sorry. That was me. I re-took the photo's so that I had a bit better depth-of-field and it took me longer to get them loaded up than I thought.

What I did was add two additional layers of blended highlights and some edging, detail painting and some very judicious use of badab black wash in certain recesses to accent the shadows. After all that I decided it was a shame to have the very first of my reborn MWs relegated to the storage box... so I gave him a weapon upgrade, some purity seals, thought up a story for him and assigned him to my command squad. Much more fitting.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 20:34:42


Post by: BLACKHAND


Great paint job on the first model, it's obviously not the easiest and quickest scheme, well done!

I know this is off topic and may have been covered, but have you thought about a mantis inspired dread?

I can imagine a dread loaded out with an asymetric close combat arm shaped like a mantis claw, perhaps the whole dread could be lighter and leaner than usual with overlapping insectoid armour plates.

sorry your blog always gets me thinking!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 20:35:08


Post by: FerrumIgnatus


Man, those Rogue Trader era Astartes are so full of character and awesomeness..


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 20:43:13


Post by: Gitsplitta


I love the knife in the ground (which I had nothing to do with... these were just old, used mini's I got from a friend). I can just imagine a marine, anticipating the fight... carving the top of the ground with his combat knife, subconsciously imagining doing the same thing to an enemy.

As to the dreads... I've given it a little thought. There have been some great suggestions put forth already, but I'm not sure I'm up to the modeling task yet. I'd planned on doing "mantis arms" for my assault troops, and I have a good idea how I'm going to do it for them... but a convincing mantis dread would take a ton of highly skilled scratch-building.

Well, give me some time anyway. I can honestly say that 'ol #6 there is the most demanding marine figure I've ever painted... for whatever that's worth.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 20:47:20


Post by: Grey Knight Luke


very nice. Good Job. You still need to make lines on the purity symbols, to make it look as if there is writing on there.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 20:48:02


Post by: Deff Dread red Edition


Really starting to shape up, and the Mantis warriors are looking pretty cool.

One question, if I may, how are you going to go about applying the chapter badge, painting it, or are you going to attempt to make decals of some kind?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 21:01:01


Post by: Gitsplitta


You guys don't ask for much, do ya? Writing on the purity seals... sheesh! Do you know how bloody small those things are??!

As far as the chapter badge goes (I knew someone would ask), I tried the hand painted thing last time around and it was a real pain... trying to get them all the same size, color proportion... no thanks. I (think I) have someone working on making a badge for me that I can shrink down and turn into decals. Failing that... I'll do the artwork myself.

One other thing... if you guys look at the original drawings of the MW's (first post), they had these weird yellow trapezoidal shapes on their helmets. I tried that too in the old days... didn't work for about the same reasons the hand-painted badges didn't. I would be willing to do a yellow strip down the center of the helm... which was a very common decorative pattern in the "old days" of 40k.

Thoughts?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 21:04:41


Post by: gretar


Gitsplitta wrote:You guys don't ask for much, do ya? Writing on the purity seals... sheesh! (grin) Do you know how bloody small those things are??!



http://www.discountart.com/store/media/Sakura-Image-Micron.gif

I use a similar product but from another company. Works like a charm, and really isn't all that expensive


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 21:31:22


Post by: Gitsplitta


Just for fun...

Found one of my old MWs in roughly the same pose. Guess old dogs can be taught new tricks...



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 23:12:48


Post by: Munch Munch!


Gitsplitta wrote: I'd planned on doing "mantis arms" for my assault troops, and I have a good idea how I'm going to do it for them.

For this, have you thought of using hormaguant arms?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/25 23:24:38


Post by: Gitsplitta


I thought about doing something along those lines, but decided that having things that looked distinctly alien or mutated was NOT consistent with the chapter history as we had hammered it out earlier in the blog. I'm certain I can use chainswords for normal assault squads and power swords for the Vanguard to construct mantis arm looking weapons that will be clearly technological in nature, this not leaving the "taint" of heresy on the user and once again exemplifying the Mantis Warrior's advanced engineering skills.

OH, and I just realized I forgot the blades on the arms and legs of the new guy!! I'll work on that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:


Well, I thought I was about blogged out for the day... then something happened I just have to share.

So like... a couple of months ago I bought some praying mantis egg cases for our garden. Mainly because I was going to need some models for the helmets I wanted to build and nothing would be a better model for me to sculpt than the real deal. Besides, I've always thought praying mantids were cool. So you get the egg cases in a little paper bag that you put near a window out of direct light, and wait for them to hatch. Well apparently... today, they hatched... hundreds of them... and many are now taking up residence in my living room as there was a hole in the bag!

This has got to be a good omen. On the day I paint the first Mantis Warrior figure, hundreds of their namesakes come into the world and dozens are running around my house. Makes me feel good about the upcoming book. So to Mr. Goto I say... "Bring it on man! Let's drag this long forgotten chapter out of it's dusty backwater and make them famous together!" "Wooooo-hooooooo !!!"

I feel like Slim Pickin's riding the a-bomb in "Dr. Strangelove"...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 00:34:09


Post by: steempunk


Haha, the Emperor provides!! Surely the Mantis Warriors will return to the Imperium and deliver righteous death upon their foes with fervor none before have seen...anyway, I think Marine 6 looks fantastic, usually don't like the old models but yours has some major character


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 04:37:44


Post by: Gitsplitta


Finished the "limb blades" or "appendage ornamentation"... whatever. Jagged parts to mimic preying mantis limb bits. Took 2 chainswords. My assault squad will take 6 chainswords per guy! Start saving them up kiddies... I'll need all I can get.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 05:13:30


Post by: StubbyGB


very nice but there has GOT to be a better/cheaper way to make them than chainswords, I just cant think of one.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 05:22:15


Post by: Ambull


I really like the comparison picture from the 90s, it's interesting how much more the old minis can be made to pop.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 08:28:39


Post by: Arakasi


StubbyGB wrote:very nice but there has GOT to be a better/cheaper way to make them than chainswords, I just cant think of one.


Cutting them out of plasticard perhaps? I can't see them well enough to determine the feasibility...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 08:46:05


Post by: BLACKHAND


Definitely cut them from plasticard,

My original suggestion to use chainswords was to keep a strip of the "sword" part of the weapon with the teeth still attached to create the effect of the teeth still being able to move and work like a chainsword would only attached to the forearm.

If you are going to glue them on in a static way It will be far simpler to cut them from plasticard, and cheaper!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 11:14:40


Post by: Gitsplitta


For the assault marines the chainswords will be mounted underneath the arms as blackhand suggests... but for the normal guys it's just the teeth that are used in order to mimic the limb ornamentation of a real preying mantis. I'll get some appropriately sized plasticard strips and see what I can come up with.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 11:17:30


Post by: inmygravenimage


Press mould, possibly with grey stuff rather than green for a clean sharp edge. I'm telling you, tis the future!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 11:22:18


Post by: Gitsplitta


Great suggestion... can you tell me where I can find out about how to make a press mould? I have no idea. Grey stuff? What's grey stuff?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 11:29:07


Post by: Horn


Press the model into putty (greenstuff) and let it set.

Then remove the model, lube up the green stuff and press some fresh putty into the mould. Pull after 10 minutes if you need to bend/shape it further, otherwise let it set.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 11:54:56


Post by: Gitsplitta


What do you recommend as lubricant for the mould?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 12:34:26


Post by: inmygravenimage


Vaseline. Girly lip-balm tin versions are convenient as (1) you can open them one-handed (2) they're easier to store (3) the pinkish tint means it's easy to tell whether you've completed scrubbed it clean.

My press mould routine is use Grey stuff (Gale Force 9 make some; Hobbycraft over here stock it, I imagine they would in the US also, but standard GS is fine too).

1) Press whatever kneadite you're using into an upside-down small or medium base (not large, I'll explain in a minute).

2) Then lube up the piece you want to make an impression of; place it on the surface of your putty.

3) Get a base one size larger. Put a little film of lube on its top surface; use that to press your original into the kneadite. This ensures its flat and the impression is even.

4) Remove the larger base and leave the gs to cure. To be completely absolutely utterly rock solid green stuff in a standard mix needs 3 days but 24 hrs is usually fine. You could also up the yellow:blue to 2:1 for a quicker set I guess.

If you're only making small pieces, it's worth using standard small slotta bases, then you can set up a mould in either side of the recess.

When doing the actual moulding, rub lube into the mould, add a blob of gs that's roughly the width of your mould, and again, press down with the larger base. It's good to have excess around the piece as it makes it easier to extract. As Horn says, leaving 10 mins or so allows you to peel it out to curve (I've done this with vehicle aquillae on my home-made deathriders; I'll try to get pics up) but watch your gs ratio as it can stretch as you remove it, typically if there's too much yellow in the mix.

One last note: I do this with my 2 1/2 year old, and he loves it, so imagine the fun your Things could have at their advanced stage!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum: it's just occured to me that you could press the toothed edge of a chainsword down into gs to create your point bits. Then you'd be able to mould, maybe leave an hour for extra rigidly, and bend/cut to fit.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 13:59:20


Post by: Gitsplitta


OK, I think I can do that. It'll be very helpful, not only for the spikey bitz but I'll need to make one techmarine and one apothecary shoulder pad per unit... so this should help me duplicate those easily enough.

Thanks!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 13:59:24


Post by: inmygravenimage


Only caveat with that (though pics good) is that, personally, I really dislike cooking oil as a release agent; much harded to control quantities, messy as anything (particularly with a small child!)


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 14:02:13


Post by: Gitsplitta


I have some fine milliput... is that the same thing as the grey stuff? (I haven't used it yet)


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 14:03:10


Post by: inmygravenimage


Sorry, just read your post Gits. You might need to use a deeper recess than a base for shoulder pads. Screwtop plastic juice bottle lids are pretty good for that I find. Also, really fine detail is unlikely to come out (press moulding from resin, say, isn't going to produce great detail). On the other hand, if you made a mantis face for your shoulder pads, you could very rapidly and reliably replicate it for press moulding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Argh! We are posting at the same time! No, Milliput isn't the same as Grey stuff, though some modellers use them to the same ends. Milliput is denser, harder, but also can flake. I'd avoid it for press moulds; a friend who is far more ambitious modeller than me found it really problematic.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 14:08:42


Post by: Gitsplitta


Now there's an idea... mold the chapter badge onto a shoulder pad w/ green stuff, then when it dries, use a press mold to duplicate it. I just might be able to do that. I noticed that the symbol in the example wasn't a very detailed copy, but then that might be solved by cutting your compound to be molded as closely to the actual mold's shape as possible, so you're not trying to compress all that extra material.

How difficult is resin casting? Are there kits available for the hobbyist? (Just thinking ahead to my desire to create custom helmets for the chapter.)


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 14:50:05


Post by: inmygravenimage


I wasn't suggesting necessarily moulding the whole shoulder pad: you could just do the symbol and that would allow you to drape it round corners, curves etc whilst still pliable.

Your note on the detail: this is part of the reason I prefer grey to green for this; it tends to take hard edges better, in my experience.

As for resin casting: it's certainly doable, and there's articles such as
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Simple_Two-Piece_Mold_for_Casting_with_Resin.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 14:58:51


Post by: Gitsplitta


Got it. Actually after I'd written my reply to you I figured out what you meant. My wife actually had a brilliant idea for the spiky bitz this morning... if it work's, I'll share.

Thanks for your help... this project is wayyy beyond anything I've tried before so it's a bit nerve wracking at times (but really satisfying).


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 15:09:52


Post by: inmygravenimage


Wives are surprisngly helpful in that regard. Mine has total lack of gaming interest but real insight which is most valuable and sometimes remarkably innovative.

One other thought on spikes: carve them. I had a long chat at Conflict to one of the GW sculptors (Gianni?) As well as beautiful work on Empire footsoldiers (I think), he had the master of an Ork Nob (Goff maybe?) with enormous pyramidal spiked shoulder pads. He said that he'd done them with shaped blobs green stuff left to go rock hard (3 days, plus time under a hot bulb) and then shaved them down to the desired with a brand-new scalpel blade. But, perhaps, I'd stick with the moulding option, if only from time's sake.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 15:25:23


Post by: Gitsplitta


Actually my wife's idea was to use pieces of jeweler's saw blades... which I have in abundance and are dirt cheap. Just a matter of cutting the hardened steel cleanly. Haven't had a chance to look at my blade assortment yet, but it's worth a try. One blade would easily cover 4 or 5 figures at very little cost... and you know... they're SAW BLADES... can't get much more real than that. Just depends on if the back of the blade (without the teeth) is too thick, making the whole thing stick out too far.

My wife also wanted me to mention that the job of household baby mantis wrangling fell largely on HER shoulders. The boys and I were busy releasing what remained of the hatch into the garden. She discovered that little praying mantis' can really jump!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 18:10:13


Post by: whalemusic360


1st - LOL at baby mantis' jumping around
2nd - If you want some variety in the blade size and shape, DE warrior squads have more spikes on em then a batallion of CSM.
3rd - speaking of CSM, remember that their chainswords are double sided, hence, twice the blades!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 18:21:16


Post by: P4NC4K3


Serrating could always be done with the spikes from Dark Eldar warriors, available from all good bitz stores, as mentioned above


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 19:16:47


Post by: Gitsplitta


Hmmmm.... I have a friend that runs DE.... I'll have to follow up with him. I remember that folks mentioned the DE spikey bitz earlier... but in my mind I saw big, over-the-top blades (though, chainsord looking blades WERE the type of blades in the pic as I recall... guess I'm not very bright). Guess I'll have to check it out after all.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 19:34:01


Post by: whalemusic360


May even be able to use some raider/ravager bits on your dreds and rhinos. Mat require some plasticard to SM-ify em. Also, there are some big, over the top blades as well


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 20:33:37


Post by: Deff Dread red Edition


Some nice ideas there, press molding the badges would be cool.

If I may, even though the fluff discussion is all but over. Will we see some sort of re-purposed praying mantidae? Even though your project deals with the Mantis warriors in their earlier stages of recuperating from their Badab war loses, I think it would be nice to see the mantidae.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 20:34:45


Post by: Solar_lion


I have some DE figure you can just have, someone way back gave them to me in a box of stuff I bought.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 20:36:30


Post by: BLACKHAND


If you are thinking of going down the resin casting route for the shoulder pads and mantis head have a look at my tervigon blog, it mostly deals with bigger stuff but I made several shoulderpad molds (deathwatsch and soul drinkers) as somewhere to pour any extra resin.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/276630.page

I might be biased but casting is pretty fun and relatively easy, you could probably knock out a dozen in an evening if you are keen, just make several molds so that you can pour more than one at a time.

your welcome to PM if you have any questions


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 20:54:42


Post by: Gitsplitta


Whalemusic: Interesting idea... I had a thought about doing some big-a** mantis arms for the CCW... but... that might be a little over the top. Some dread sized spikey bitz that mimic those on the infantry might be a good option though.

Deff: Praying Mantidae? Not sure what you're referring to. Can you explain?

Solar: Thanks man, please bring 'em when you come down. You can see the progress first hand. The fig actually looks better in person (color & blending really pop), and I should have at least a few more done by then.

Blackhand: Thanks... it's always a bit daunting to try new things... but I'm getting kinda cranked up about the molding possibilities now. I'll be sure to check out your blog, things are always easier when you've got something to follow.


I've made molds for jewelry casting quite a bit, and something about those pictures on that one page using the green stuff press mold (not yours Blackhand, from earlier in the thread) have been bothering me. But... let me experiment a little bit at home before I try and articulate my ideas. I think I see some flaws in the mold design and pressing process that if fixed (easily), might result in better mold performance. Big talk from someone whose never tried it. Well, let me 'speriment and if I come up with anything useful, I'll pass it on.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 21:04:41


Post by: Deff Dread red Edition


Sorry I most likely should have explained it more, in anyway...

The only other non-Codex troops mentioned are the elite 'praying mantidae'. This elite cadre are selected from the most driven and pious members of the chapter and live for the sole purpose of hunting the Red Corsairs in order to bring honor back to the chapter. They are recognizable by snake-like tattoos covering their body, extending high up their necks.


It is from the warhammer 40k wiki, yet they aren't listed on Lexicanum so I'm not sure if they were part of the fluff. Basically as listed they exist to hunt the Corsairs down, I'd suspect that after coming off their crusade, they wouldn't simply disband these units, as they had valuable knowledge in the field of hunting CSM. Perhaps, they were re-purposed some how.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 21:08:16


Post by: Gitsplitta


Unfortunately that's not a lot to go on... I will have two elite squads... the Sternguard (Tranquility Snipers) and the Vanguard (specialized assault troops w/ praying mantis like arm harnesses that function like lightening claws (or power swords if cost is prohibitive). They'd probably be a pretty good approximation of your "mantidae".


With the first normal Mantis Warrior in the bag... I'm going back to working on the Tranquility Snipers, which is the first unit that I'd intended to do in the first place. I should have a decent series of WIP shots either tonight or tomorrow.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 21:18:06


Post by: Deff Dread red Edition


Could be, it isn't an idea you have to follow up on, just a thought. It would be interesting to see them though, I do agree that there isn't much fluff to support them though.

Can't wait to see the Tranquility campaign snipers.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 21:26:06


Post by: Limbo


Gitsplitta wrote:OK, I think I can do that. It'll be very helpful, not only for the spikey bitz but I'll need to make one techmarine and one apothecary shoulder pad per unit... so this should help me duplicate those easily enough.

Thanks!


Don't know if you've coverd this (didn't read the fluff discussion) or maybe it's not that big a deal, but even in normal chapters techmarines are pretty rare, I just thought it alittle strange that a chapter whos crusaded for 100 years would have one to spare for every unit


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 21:28:16


Post by: Gitsplitta


I'm using the same basic painting technique that I used with the regular guy, just a different color palate (sp?). I like the conversions I did for these guys. The two kneeling guys especially took a fair amount of work... but I think the results are worth it. I think I'll start with short squads (5 man) of the two vet squads, just so I can experiment and get everyone's feedback, then I can fill them out at my leisure later on.


Limbo: It's not a spare tech marine for every unit, it's that one member of each unit has a certain amount of tech training (though well beyond a normal marine), as well as another with apothecary training. Has to do with their need to survive w/o recruits or re-supply. It's in the fluff section if you're interested. Basically they can perform triage on men and machines that improves their chances of surviving. In game terms it doesn't do anything, just part of my fluff. Something to set the chapter apart.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 22:47:32


Post by: Munch Munch!


Oh I got it. It's like 1 person is an amateur engineer and another is an amateur medic.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 22:53:33


Post by: Gitsplitta


Don't believe there's no emoticon of a blinking light bulb...

*grin*

Yep, exactly like that... just something to invoke the idea of specialization of some members of each squad in things that would help the chapter as-a-whole survive the ordeal.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 23:17:19


Post by: whalemusic360


Is there a shoulder pad for the team total badass? Every team needs one of them!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/26 23:46:43


Post by: Limbo


Gitsplitta wrote:
Limbo: It's not a spare tech marine for every unit, it's that one member of each unit has a certain amount of tech training (though well beyond a normal marine), as well as another with apothecary training. Has to do with their need to survive w/o recruits or re-supply. It's in the fluff section if you're interested. Basically they can perform triage on men and machines that improves their chances of surviving. In game terms it doesn't do anything, just part of my fluff. Something to set the chapter apart.


Makes sense, I'll go back and read the fluff, sorta skipped ahead cause I really wanted to see the test figures ^^

On another note, read your Doom Eagle blog, loved it all the way through. Me and my friend started playing and painting about 6 months ago, and it's sorta disheartning to see a 9-year old pull ahead -.-


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/27 03:34:19


Post by: Gitsplitta


Today's offerings...

1. Finished conversion: added sling, marksman award, decided to save purity seals for later. Also decided to add spiky bitz after the fact as it's much easier to blend without them. Building the gun was fun, getting it to fit in a natural pose with the arms was not.
2. Yellow spray primer.
3. 2 layers of sepia wash.
4. First color-up (golden yellow).



5. Next lightest shade (2/3 golden & 1/3 sunburst yellow)
6. Lighter still (reverse above, then all sunburst)
7. Final product after highlighting w/ Bad Moon Yellow (do they even make this color anymore??)






Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/27 03:59:12


Post by: Hialmar


While I like the pose for the most part, I would suggest tucking his head slighlty down and forward towards his right shoulder to suggest he is looking through the scope.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/27 04:03:57


Post by: Gitsplitta


While it looks like that would work from this angle, it's deceptive. In actuality the head is much too far away from the scope (and too far forward) to be set correctly behind the scope. I figure marines have a head's-up display anyway, so the "scope" is really more of a video feed than something they look directly through. I have another conversion like this one where the head is in a better position... but since our modern army is moving in this direction (video from gun to heads-up), I figured it was a tech the space marines would have as well. I might even do a tiny little antenna on the back of the unit & on the instrument package of the helmet to make my point..


Question:

Gun color? Anyone have any ideas on what would go good with these guys?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/27 04:09:56


Post by: Munch Munch!


Black and boltgun metal highlighted with chainmail is always good.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/27 14:29:29


Post by: Gitsplitta


I agree... that's my standard formula for space marine weapons too, with orks I use a tin bitz base instead of black and wash with sepia to give it a very slight rusty patina look.

I was wondering more about the "hood" or whatever you call it and the flash suppressor/silencer. Should I mimic the paint job on the marine, color and camo... or do something totally different?



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/27 14:42:56


Post by: whalemusic360


Suppressor should either be the color of the gun to the color of the casing on the gun (ie, black). And what hood?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/27 14:56:39


Post by: Gitsplitta


Casing... that was the word I was looking for.... not hood.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/27 15:15:52


Post by: whalemusic360


With your colors I'd go with black or the same "metal" color as the rest of the gun (like the BT in the How to paint SM book you got for thing 1). Red looks good with a dark green, not sure how they would look with the light green and yellow


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/27 20:46:36


Post by: poipo32


Red with dark green looks like christmas...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/27 22:11:05


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


"Red and green should never be seen..."


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/27 22:42:00


Post by: Munch Munch!


Meh, red is good with green in small amounts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gitsplitta wrote:I agree... that's my standard formula for space marine weapons too, with orks I use a tin bitz base instead of black and wash with sepia to give it a very slight rusty patina look.

I was wondering more about the "hood" or whatever you call it and the flash suppressor/silencer. Should I mimic the paint job on the marine, color and camo... or do something totally different?


I am sorry, I seem to have confused you. When I said the word "black", I was saying that black bolter casings look good.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/28 12:11:41


Post by: Gitsplitta


Here are the results of last night's efforts. Painted detail on marine and gun. Started with a very dark gun (black/boltgun metal w chainmail highlights) and it just didn't look right next to the yellow marine... so I went with the "camo" color instead. The gun still needs to be washed & highlighted and will get the same black striping as the marine will get. I should start the striping tonight or tomorrow night... depending on when I get the nerve. We'll see.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/28 17:29:11


Post by: Limbo


Lovely yellow, I wasn't a big fan of the camo scheme on Lexicanum, but I can't wait to see your's finished


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/28 18:41:58


Post by: Gitsplitta


Thanks! It's a bit brighter than I'd anticipated... maybe I should have held off on that last highlight w/ Bad Moon Yellow. Sure "pops" though. For some reason all of my yellow paints are really glossy, much more so than the greens on the earlier figure... when it's done and I hit it with a good dull varnish, it might tone it down a bit...

Right now I'm kicking around how I'm going to do the base. I can base it like the rest of my army, or I could try to base it in a way that the camo makes sense... yellow desert with yucca or agave type plants around. Course these guys aren't fighting in the Tranquility Campaign any more.... but I did think it might help put them in context when the rest of the army was green. I don't really want to "Tranquility base" the entire army as I think that would be a tremendous amount of work.

Any thoughts?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/28 19:55:38


Post by: whalemusic360


I'd do the same basing as the rest of your army, it gives them a sameness throughout. If you do a different base people will think they are from a different chapter and you ran out of green guys. Its not like most space marines really blend in with much of anything.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/28 20:35:22


Post by: SkeTcHy LaRRy


Truely impressed. Thank you for sharing your hard work and cant wait to see more.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 03:47:28


Post by: Gitsplitta


Never has one man spent so much time modeling and painting a simple beakie...

I just want to state for the record that by the time I'm done with this entire squad, you young guys will all be retired with bouncy grand-children on your knee, and I will be long dead. I will however, still be painting feverishly in my grave... and each Halloween the Great Pumpkin will rise from the most sincere pumpkin patch, and place a single, pristine Tranquility Sniper on my grave stone... along with a written request for the next strongest lens for my optivisor...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 04:57:31


Post by: Munch Munch!


Ah, I can't wait to see actual mantis warrior snipers from the tranquility campain. This'll be sweet...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 05:51:13


Post by: Gitsplitta


Here 'tis....



Oops... damn.... forgot to paint the rock under the leg. I'll get that.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 06:39:11


Post by: Arakasi


I'll admit I was a bit iffy before - but that turned out great, nay, awesome! I'd do something with the white (studs, cross) - it looks unfinished. Maybe some grey to shade? Oh, and the rock - but you knew that already. Keep up the great work!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 07:06:51


Post by: warriors of mayhem


If i may make a suggestion as par mantis warriors stuff. www.belloflostsouls.net has a .pdf fan boy codex about the badab war and there's a lot of mantis warrior stuff in it. B.t.w. the snipers look great. i can't wait to see a complete squad.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 14:09:24


Post by: Gitsplitta


Arakasi: I have some Valejo "pale wash" that should do the trick... thanks for pointing that out. I've been so obsessed with the camo pattern and shading of the yellow that I spaced the studs.

Warriors of Mayhem: I printed down a copy of the BoLS Badab Dex & have really enjoyed reading it... and there's no questions that it's influenced my thoughts on the MW's. In the end, I decided to go a different way... but it's not because I "rejected" the BoLS codex as much as I just had to follow my own star (so-to-speak). Thanks... I'll be working on this squad until it's done... that should take me... oh... longer than I want to think about. (sigh)

Next I'll move on to the Vanguard squad which will be a lot of fun to model too. Probably then the HQ (or at least some of it). My plan is to do the "showcase" or unique units first, and use them with my existing MW army, then slowly replace my old figs over time with new ones. That way I get a playable, charachterful MW army very quickly and can take my time on the rebuilds and repaints of the other units, so everything looks as good as I can make it when it's all said and done.

"Last star to the right... then straight on 'till morning!"


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 14:41:56


Post by: whalemusic360


He's a bit shiney, but otherwise looks great! Not sure what that would actually blend in with, but looks good none the less!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 15:38:13


Post by: TheStomach44


Looks awesome! Wasnt a big fan of the Yellow at first but the Camo really makes it work. Great work


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 16:15:25


Post by: Munch Munch!


Love the tranquility sniper. Nice work my friend.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 16:58:34


Post by: Gitsplitta


Thanks guys... I feel like I've given birth. I know the last two guys aren't much compared with the other work on Dakka... but they are by far the best marines I've ever painted, and I really appreciate everyone's guidance and support throughout this process. Now all I need is 9 more of 'em. ... *sigh*

Can anyone recommend a nice flat finish spray-protectant? He'd look better with the glare gone.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 17:50:04


Post by: whalemusic360


I use the gw stuff. purity seal i think is the matte


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 18:58:20


Post by: Gitsplitta


Just dawned on me that I forgot to add the limb blades and purity seals. I was rather punchy last night by the time I decided to post the pics. I'll get those done this weekend... maybe tonight if I'm lucky.

Have a couple of Aard Boyz games over the next two days with a 2500 point mek ork list I cooked up. Should be total suicide... but totally fun, and a nice break from painting.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 19:38:46


Post by: warriors of mayhem


I may be wrong and if so i apologize but wouldn't there be a lack of purity seals in your army to begin with? Given that its basically the emperors blessing on paper, and the Mantis Warriors were once traitors?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/29 19:56:00


Post by: Gitsplitta


It's semantics... but I've always considered "traitor" marines to be those chapters tainted with chaos. If that was true of the Mantis Warriors (and Lamenters) they would have never been sent on crusade, they would have been exterminated. They were rebels aligned with a tainted chapter... but I suspect they did not realize the taint in the Tiger Claws at the time.

To be honest, I'm not sure how that would work... I just figured as veterans if there were purity seals in the chapter this is where they'd reside. Keep in mind that in my "vision", the chapter has been under constant scrutiny by the inquisition... and at the point that I'm modeling they've been back "within the fold" for a number of years. I imagine that the Inquisitorially-assigned Cannoness could "issue paper" to deserving marines as she saw fit. Would the chapter have lost all of it's seals when they rebelled?? I don't now... makes a certain amount of sense. Would they be allowed to earn them back? That makes sense too, otherwise why bother sending them on a crusade in the first place... just declare them traitor and do your best to wipe them out.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/30 00:47:55


Post by: IceAngel


I love the sniper. I'm glad when you decided on painting the camo you didn't go over board. A lot of times you see camo with WAY to much going on and you really kept to the old pictures. Nice job.

Have fun with the Ard boyz games!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/30 15:13:08


Post by: Gitsplitta


Hey Gretar, lookee what I did!!



Got my pens... sweet!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/30 16:04:33


Post by: gretar


Very good! A+

The Camo on the sniper looks ace, I really like it. However the grass is a tad tall, maybe snip a little of it(unless the planet's plants are supposed to be big, or the marines are midgets )


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/30 16:05:38


Post by: Klona


nice work, just keep rebuilding this chapter, SM's can sometimes seem boring, but these look to be highly interesting.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/30 17:02:43


Post by: Grey Knight Luke


Definitely like the writing on the purity seals!! Good Job.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/30 17:45:40


Post by: Chapterhouse


Hmmm if you decide you want some sculpted/cast shoulder pads, email me. I have always like Mantis Warriors since I read Warrior Brood.

We could sculpt something up and mass produce them for you for something less then $125 or so.

Nick


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/04/30 18:14:33


Post by: The Night Stalker


Just want to say, I love that sniper. Very cool


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/03 12:09:16


Post by: Gitsplitta


Well, had my first experience with 'Aard Boyz. Two practice games on Thursday (demons and nids) and the tournament itself on Saturday... which in itself was a practice for the real 'Aard Boyz tournament next weekend. As I've never been much of a power gamer, I didn't really expect to do well, but I did want the experience of playing in that type of atmosphere... and I like the folks in our group, so I knew I'd enjoy the day. Pulled out my orks, tried a couple of new configurations... couple of new figures, some new tactics (for me anyway). Split the practice games (got slaughtered by Norbu the Destroyer's demons, comfortable victory against the nids). In the tournament proper, I had a minor loss to marines in round 1 (though it felt like I was never in the game... I just kept making stupid mistake after stupid mistake), had a major loss to khanaris' Evil Suns bike army in round two (great opponent/modeler, my mentor in playing orks) and a major victory against a couple of young kids playing a mixed ork/SM army.

That being said... I learned a lot & save for Round 1 where I made so many stupid mistakes that I just hated myself, I had a good time. I am clearly not... however, a power gamer. I used a set of Dugg's resin craters throughout to great effect. They look great and you can stand guys on the rim of the crater as well as the interior, which actually makes them useful as "combat terrain". And of course with orks... things are blowing up all over the place, so you need a *lot* of craters.

As some of you know I also have a blog on my experiences with my two small boys in 40k, a blog which hasn't gotten a single post since I started the MW blog. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/285111.page So, I'm going to spend a little time with my boys and get them rolling again. The 6-year old is painting a gretchin and the 9-year old is building a nob from the ground up. Thus it may be a bit before I have anything to show on my MWs. The next project will be the Vanguard prototype... a specialized assault troop with preying mantis arm-looking blade attachments that function like either power claws or chain swords depending on how I model them. I'm also talking with Nick at Chapterhouse about making molded Mantis Warrior shoulder pads... which would solve a lot of problems for me.

So that will be coming... but there will be a bit of a pause while I spend some quality time with "da grotz" (they're a little too old to be snotlings).


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/04 01:24:09


Post by: Gitsplitta


gretar wrote:Very good! A+

The Camo on the sniper looks ace, I really like it. However the grass is a tad tall, maybe snip a little of it(unless the planet's plants are supposed to be big, or the marines are midgets )


Punk.... *grin*

Actually the tall grass in on purpose. It's part of the "illusion" that they are actually snipers (even though they are Sternguard on the table). Snipers in the tall grass seemed like an appropriate image. So they'll each carry their "cover" with them in the form their basing. The style of base is consistent with the rest of my army, just taller grass. If they turn out well I may even make a little display base for the unit with tufts of tall grass all round, which will put the whole thing in context.

It does challenge me however on the basing for my sniper scouts... hmmmmm.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/04 20:29:59


Post by: Disjointed Entity


Is there a set colour scheme for the Sniper scouts?

If not, I see this!



Apologies for the image size


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/05 00:01:42


Post by: whalemusic360


Ewww that is a really old M16. Minus that and the Beret I'd agree, not sure how tiger stripe will work in mini form tho


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/05 00:16:58


Post by: gretar


Gitsplitta wrote:
gretar wrote:Very good! A+

The Camo on the sniper looks ace, I really like it. However the grass is a tad tall, maybe snip a little of it(unless the planet's plants are supposed to be big, or the marines are midgets )


Punk.... *grin*

Actually the tall grass in on purpose. It's part of the "illusion" that they are actually snipers (even though they are Sternguard on the table). Snipers in the tall grass seemed like an appropriate image. So they'll each carry their "cover" with them in the form their basing. The style of base is consistent with the rest of my army, just taller grass. If they turn out well I may even make a little display base for the unit with tufts of tall grass all round, which will put the whole thing in context.

It does challenge me however on the basing for my sniper scouts... hmmmmm.


I'd love to see a display base with a lot of that tall grass

Sniper scouts you say? how about a swamp theme, while still being on the same planet?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/05 03:56:37


Post by: Gitsplitta


Swamp theme... cool idea. I could give them green stuff hoods as well with all kinds of leafy bits attached like a modern sniper...

As far as the photo goes, doesn't all that bright red defeat the purpose of the camo?? Oh wait... that's his skin color. Oops!


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Just for giggles... a side-by-side with the original artwork. I did try to stick to the original camo pattern as much as possible.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/05 16:56:33


Post by: Disjointed Entity


whalemusic360 wrote:Ewww that is a really old M16. Minus that and the Beret I'd agree, not sure how tiger stripe will work in mini form tho


Yeah I know. He has a rather nice CAR-15 though. Which is good. I agree with you, maybe it would fit better on a Guardsman?

Apologies for thread jacking


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/05 19:06:22


Post by: Gitsplitta


LOL! No problem. Thread hasn't been very exciting lately... More to come, got to take care of my boys first though...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/06 21:37:46


Post by: Gitsplitta


Snuck in a little work on the Vanguard squad. These are my "mantis arms" for them. Even though they are made from chainswords, I'll count them as lightening claws. I have a way in mind to cover up the seam... when I get that done I'll post it. The final prototype may take a while to build because I'm waiting on some parts to come in... but I'll keep you updated on whatever progress I can make.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/06 21:54:29


Post by: StubbyGB


I like them.

Are they designed to open and close at the bend ? if not, the left one looks better than the right. It just looks like it would be able to hit more.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/06 22:04:46


Post by: Gitsplitta


Yes, the idea is that there's a hinging mechanism at the bend that transferrs power and allows the arms to open and close with the movement of the arms. I'm not going to dwell on modeling the mechanics too much... not my cup of tea. That being said I won't ignore it completely either... I may have some time to fiddle around with it this weekend and see what I can come up with. That's why I call 'em prototypes after all! *grin*


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/07 20:03:12


Post by: whalemusic360


You should ditch the handels to make them less chainswordish


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/07 20:07:32


Post by: Gitsplitta


Well, I put the handles back on just for visual balance as the motor part of the chainsword ended rather abruptly, and I couldn't figure out how to model the rest. They can be easily taken off, but then I still need to come up with a better way of "completing" the motor.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/07 20:38:38


Post by: whalemusic360


I'd use some wire, maybe into the backpack or under the shoulderpads.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/07 20:47:50


Post by: Gitsplitta


I'll play around with it... I have some cabling that I've been dieing to use... that and some wires might make a convincing image. That's the beauty of the WIP posts... lets me float things out into the internets so I get good feedback from people who's opinions I value before I'm irrevocably committed. I may try to do something similar with power swords... but I'm not sure how that would come out... they aren't anywhere as dynamic as the chain swords are... would be more easily believable as lightening claws though, and it would allow me some weapons diversity in the unit (some guys have chain swords, some lightening claws), keeps the unit from getting crazy expensive... and Vanguard are already crazy expensive to start with. Most of the power swords are just so bloody big... maybe I can find something amongst one of the other army's that is a little more sanely proportioned.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/07 20:58:06


Post by: StubbyGB


Ok, in that case they are AWESOME !

I would definitely say you need to model something that suggests hinging, but like you said , it doesn't have to be much.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/07 21:15:22


Post by: Gitsplitta


Give me the weekend to play around with them.... I have some ideas in mind... think I can come up with something that will be a convincing conversion... and look cool to boot! You guys have any more good ideas or comments, just throw them up on the blog... I'll take everything into consideration as I model.. Unfortunately I just ordered the legs I want so it'll be a while before they arrive, but if I get the arms and torso done I may proxy in some temporary legs just to get some feedback.

Tonight I get to play a very good opponent with my Bad Moons (1850 pts). Really looking forward to a fun game. I kind of backed off from a lot of the gimmicks that I tried for the 'Aard Boyz warm up tournament last weekend and came back to the stuff I feel more comfortable running. So win or lose, I should at least have fun. Not that there was anything wrong with the army I chose last week, it just had a lot of unfamiliar stuff in it so I spent my time hunting down rules rather than focusing on playing/enjoying the game.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/07 22:33:36


Post by: Munch Munch!


Looks nice. Only issue that I have is that it seems a little long and heavy to use effectiley in battle.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/07 22:45:13


Post by: Gitsplitta


Ah-hem.... 7' tall marine.... biologically enhanced... veteran.... power armor. Also if the mechanism is well balanced, you'd be amazed what you can get away with in size, just a matter of learning how to fight with it. Compared with the stupid-huge weapons that most marines are toting around now-a-days... I thought these were actually quite rational.

I suppose I could model an extra piston apparatus on the inside of the arms that would give additional power and speed to the extension/contraction motions of the arms. It would be easy enough to model a piston... just doesn't seem like a very marine thing... very orky though...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/07 23:12:10


Post by: whalemusic360


YOu should use those on terminators! They can use LCs and are hugenormus


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 01:36:09


Post by: IceAngel


Hey Gitsplitta, sorry to change the subject but I've heard good things about that Mantis Warrior short story in the Legends of Space Marines. I'm not sure if you've picked it up yet, but it portrays them as loyalists who are very adamant about getting back into the Emperor's good graces.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 05:27:44


Post by: Gitsplitta


*grin* Thank you IceAngel! I'll have to go get me a copy... that's certainly good news!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's where we are so far...








The thought is that these are overlapping plates that expand or contract as the sword parts move. I think painting will help with the illusion and changing my assembly order (top strip first, then the triangular plates will to all the way to the top) will also improve the look.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 17:07:17


Post by: StubbyGB


Very nice indeed

>crazy idea< I wonder if these jump pack guys could have some sort of insect wings, like the BA's have angel wings?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 17:09:19


Post by: Yggdrasil


The mantis arms are terrific!!! They don't look like extended chainswords anymore, that's great!!!



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 17:12:58


Post by: whalemusic360


That would be pretty cool, even if it was just a thorax extension on the jump pack. Kinda hard to explain whats in my head, I may have to just make one and take a pic.
Looks good with the termi legs and the wire, gives them a heftyer look.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 19:24:16


Post by: Gitsplitta


For having to do an entire chapter, I decided that doing a true-scale marines simply wasn't practical... however I liked the idea, so I'm planning on doing what I can using simple techniques to make the figs look more formidable... at least the veterans and commanders. A termie leg-swap is an easy thing, and really does make an impact on the mass and presence of the figure.

I don't think I'm done with the conversion yet... some wires perhaps, and I'll shift the attachment points of the cables to the arms a bit on the rest of them (wasn't sure where the shoulder pads would end up). I'm also going to try and get one of the Chapterhouse pre-herasy jump packs to see how they look. They are very cool and "different" looking. I don't claim they'll be actual pre-herasy jump packs... just a different configuration of a modern pack to augment the feel of the model.

I'd be very interested in seeing what kind of an insect thorax you come up with. I thought about trying to build a type of dragonfly wing set-up for the jump packs... but couldn't figure out a good way to do it that would be sustainable or easily repeatable. I'm sure I could make up a wax master that would cast correctly (in brass for example), but that's a lot of money to invest in the mold & the casting for only 10 - 20 figures. Well, let me think about it anyway.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 21:14:05


Post by: whalemusic360


Made some quick protos, hope the glue doesn't mess up the jump pack to much.
They are up in my gallery, im to lazy to figure out how to add them to the post lol.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 21:29:29


Post by: Gitsplitta


Here ya go! I'm so used to sticking photo's up it's second nature (and stupid simple to start with).



Neat idea WM! Definitely food for thought. Guess I'll have to 'speriment some more. Not in a hurry with this one though. Regular jet packs will work fine until I find the "just right" substitute...



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 21:37:41


Post by: whalemusic360


Did I send any extra termi legs? Can't remember, but if not I have to many of the DA ones if you are in need.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 21:55:07


Post by: Velour_Fog


Those mantis arms are terrific. Have you explored how they'd look with a round hinge? They don't look 100% right yet. Just my two cents.

Oh, and by the way, you don't need to do truescale.

It's everyone ELSE that needs to do truescale.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 22:13:13


Post by: Gitsplitta


@WM: No, I think I scavenged those off of an existing plastic termie... (poor bast**d). I'd be delighted to assume control of anything you had to offer. All my stuff is so old I'm not sure I'd have anything of value to offer in trade... could pay you for them though.

@Skarwel: I'm open to suggestion... that's why I put stuff up here, so you guys can poke holes in it and improve it! Can you give me a pic or a link that illustrates what you're talking about?
LOL! LOVE the truscale comment.... I thought about something similar... it's not that SM's are too small, it's that everyone else is too big! A good pair of flush-nippers should be standard issue for every marine player so they can cut their opponent's down to size!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 23:06:50


Post by: whalemusic360


I agree, I can see orks or Nids as being the size of a SM, but Imp Guards must be hitting the gym cuz they are huge.
I've got 6 extra legs for ya, you cover shipping and they are yours. If you really want to trade something, how bout I put a marine in there and you paint him up and send him back! I have a few marines that I've had other people paint in there own colors, just hangin with my power armored boys.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 23:10:34


Post by: Velour_Fog


Gitsplitta wrote: Can you give me a pic or a link that illustrates what you're talking about?


Will try. Google image search for hinges results in finding door hinges. This may be harder than originally thought.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 23:25:59


Post by: Gitsplitta


@WM: You've got a deal! Will PM you.

@Skarwael: I may have an idea worth investigating, but it'll take me a couple of days until I can see if I can get the right bits. You keep working on your end, I'll keep working on mine.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 23:48:36


Post by: Velour_Fog


Nothing mind-blowing or anything, but I just feel they might look better with joints that look like the arms on fabius bile's backpack, say:-

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat300002a&prodId=prod1860240


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/08 23:56:39


Post by: tony_nids_10


Ok, I realize that its not the coolest example out there but look at the hinge directly beside the knee brace. Its a round style joint. Is this the style you were looking for?



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/09 00:04:32


Post by: Velour_Fog


Yep. That's one saucy looking joint.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/09 00:21:18


Post by: Gitsplitta


Got it... if I can cleanly remove one of the existing joints I'll try it on this model.

But right now I get to game with my BOYS wooo-hooo! Check out "the other blog" later this weekend for a battle report on our new... gaming table!

:-)



Automatically Appended Next Post:


Well the water softener malfunctioned and the basement flooded... game cancelled. Table sure looks good though...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/12 14:29:11


Post by: Gitsplitta


OK guys, have made some progress on a couple of fronts...

I found what I need to re-make the hinges on the Vanguard, but have not done it yet... hope to have something for you to consider in a day or so.

Just for giggles, I took one of my old, vanilla semi-junk dreds that I got off of ebay, ripped the arms off (they were glued), magnetized new weapons, give it a new config & am re-painting it in the "new" mantis warrior green scheme. I'ts not perfect... as I was largely experimenting with how the painting process would look on a vehicle, but it's turning out good enough that I'll definitely keep it. It's close to being presentable, but I want to pick out a few more details and finish the base before I show a pic.

That brings me to the real reason for this post.

I've decided that I want to do a venerable dreadnought in Tranquility Campaign camo. Essentially a veteran dred of the Tranquility Campaign, who's job it is to give close support to my Sternguard. I'm thinking of using the Forge World Mark IV venerable as the figure... question is.. what type of armament should it have? It WAS as sternguard sniper... now it's a dread supporting the snipers.

Thoughts??


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/12 17:59:03


Post by: whalemusic360


Double Twin Linked Auto Cannons or Lascannon/ML combo.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/12 18:07:27


Post by: Gitsplitta


That was my thought... (autocannons), but then he really cant help them at all in HtH... They're kinda weak in HtH (just no fancy weaponry) so could use some help in that way. I was thinking autocannon and CCW, but I must admit the twin autocannon thing is a lot more in keeping with the tone of the squad.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/12 18:14:44


Post by: whalemusic360


Why not do both? Dread arms are easy enough to switch out.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/12 18:25:34


Post by: Gitsplitta


Duh.... point well taken.


Of course... I'll have to paint up a couple of drop pods to match.... I'm thinking that I'll do a whole "Tranquility Campaign" subset of painting for the army. Not too much... just a bit to give it the right feel. Sternguard squad, one venerable dread for support, and a character (counts-as Pedro) to run with them. So I'd have this little, self-supporting Tranquility detachment within the greater MW army. Kind of a neat idea I thought. The whole thing can come down in two drop pods and there's even a scoring unit (with Pedro).


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/12 19:38:47


Post by: Disjointed Entity


I think it'd look good having little almost individual sections of your MW force.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/12 20:51:27


Post by: BLACKHAND


If you go the route of T/L Autocannons I suggest getting using the quad autocannon from the GW Aegis defence line, I've seen a few done like that and it looks swish.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/12 21:23:13


Post by: Gitsplitta


Good suggestion... those are better (more detailed) than the FW ones. That doesn't happen too often.

I still think I'm leaning toward the FW Venerable rather than the standard one... not quite as busy but just as ornate.

Thoughts?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/12 22:05:03


Post by: whalemusic360


Well with the plastic one you can makea very simple Ven Dred actually. I used that as the base of my Libby Dread that I'm working on and I had to add stuff cuz there wasnt enough going on!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/13 11:38:28


Post by: Gitsplitta


As promised, here are some shots of the dread. Not completely done, there are always details to pick out or add... but for a "painting experiment" it worked out well enough to keep.

First shot: The dread (Brother Calus) and Brother Six side-by-side for a paint scheme comparison.



Second shot is Brother Calus next to one of my old, all-metal dreads so you can see how the paint job has changed.




I'll get back to the Vanguard project presently... just got a burr in my bonnet to get this guy done & try the new painting techniques out on a vehicle.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
All-right... that was wierd... I just posted some pics and text, and the summery in my index shows the text... but it doesn't appear on the blog....

Help? Is it just a size of the post vs. size left on the page thing??



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/13 11:52:27


Post by: comisarmilo


Looking very good. The guys with the Jump packs are awesome especially the mantis arms. keep it up I'll follow.,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh BTW where'd you get the long grass from im looking for some.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/13 11:57:32


Post by: Gitsplitta


@comisarmilo: Thank you! FLGS. Unfortunately the labels fell off the bags so I can't tell you the brand name right off hand. I'll probably swing by there this afternoon, if I can remember I'll write it down for you. Bags were cheap as I recall, and there's plenty in there. The individual grass pieces are about 2" long so you have to trim them up.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/13 12:06:01


Post by: Imperial Monkey


Yeh, that happened with some of my posts on other Plogs, I think its just a system glitch.

These look really nice. For the swamp snipers you should have them knee deep in swampy-mirey-muck-stuff, like they are wading through it to get to a target, that would look cool!

Imp. Monkey


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/13 18:55:05


Post by: Gitsplitta


@comisarmilo: OK, the tall grass is called "field grass" by Woodland Scenics, it comes in small packets for a couple of bucks (each packet has a bunch of fibers in it). You should be able to find it at most hobby or model railroad stores.

@ImpMoney: That sounds like an interesting idea... and quite a challenge. Not exactly sure how I'd model that... since you wouldn't want to model the ground up on the figure (that would look silly), you'd have to cut a certain portion of each figure off, then mount them on a swampy looking base. Cool idea, I just don't know if a small base is large enough to do a credible "swamp" diorama on... without that, they'd just look sawed off. Hmmmm...


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/13 21:00:52


Post by: BLACKHAND


Splitta Swamp bases are doable if you want to take the time!

Step 1 - glue a disk of plasticard to the bottom of the base to seal it off, use the thinnest you can to keep from adding too much height.

Step 2 - cut out the top of the base, carefull not to damage the sides of the base, I would leave irregularities on one side to represent the shore on a couple but most would have to be perfectly round I guess.

Step 3 - cut of the marine's feet ( aaaargh!!!) and glue to the base, the marine would have to be painted but you could do this with just the legs painted if you want.

Step 4 - Paint the inside of the base in browns and greens to rpresent mud and slime.

Step 5 - Find yourself a product called "doming resin", you can get it at hardware or hobby stores, I use a 2-part recipe. Mix up a small batch , then put a few drops of a couple of different greens into the resin, and mix lightly, leaving streaks in it. Pour into the base up the rim and Voila!, marine walking through swamp.

I would also glue the odd rock and clumps of rushes into the base before pouring the resin to add variety, Damn and I have the perfect leaping frog that would look sweet leaping off the edge of the base!

Anyway hope that stokes the imagination engine


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/13 21:17:05


Post by: Gitsplitta


You guys are both evil.... but I love it!

Thanks Blackhand, a step-by-step really helps... I'll definitely try that. It's worth pursuing... bit it'll have to go on the back burner for a bit until I get my signature squads & characters done.

This would be a good project for my regular marine scouts I think.... yes? Not sure it two sternguard squads are feasible, or even legal.



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/13 21:40:53


Post by: BLACKHAND


ok that was weird...thought it was a double post , deleted it, then the double post disapeared

here it is again



and yeah you gotta try this


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/13 21:45:36


Post by: Gitsplitta


You and are of the same mind my friend! Love my little sniper scouts... Awesome job on the base. I've gotta try this.... &*%$#@!! One more thing....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

O.K. guys... back to the Vanguard model. It appears that I used plastic glue on the joint plates, so there's no replacing those particular joints... that being said, I agree that the circular joints will look better though and will come up with something for the rest of the squad.

Now I've got a couple of things for you to consider. Should I...

a) Try to make something like this out of power swords so I can more easily claim them to be lightening claws?
b) Just stay with the chainsword apparatus and paint them to look a bit more "powered"?
c) If "a", I could probably say this guy is the sergeant with the relic blade & mount an appropriate gun of some sort on him (which I think I can do tastefully).


I have my own opinion... but for the nonce I'll keep it to myself and see what you guys think. In the mean time, I'll gussy up the figure a bit (purity seals, etc.) and get 'im primed.


Does anyone know how to stop a post from "automatically appending"? It's annoying...




Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/14 23:07:07


Post by: Solar_lion


Nice Dread. It show how much you have improved since you painted the other one. I really like what you did shading wise.

just a thought.. and not to cause you to go in a different direction. If you are using them a lightning claws why not think about hinging actual lightning claws.

I akin to more japanese/chinese tiger claws.

Just a thought


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/14 23:49:11


Post by: Gitsplitta


@Solar_lion:
Thanks, I worked on it a bit more today... got a great banner off the right arm, picked out a few more details, worked on the base a bit. Don't want to overdo it, but there are so many things that can be done it's kind of hard to decide when to stop. I'm still mulling it over...

The idea with the Mantis Warrior combat arms is to make them look like preying mantis arms themselves. While hinged "tiger claws" would look awesome, they aren't very preying mantis-like.

I've got the Vanguard build tweaked to my liking and it's primed... so I may start the painting tonight. If I do a decent job on the painting... it should look pretty cool!


@Blackhand : I have an idea for the swamp scouts... think Apocalypse Now... think "The End" by The Doors. Let that bounce around in your brain for a bit and maybe you'll figure out where I'm going.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/14 23:58:26


Post by: NiiloTimantti


Gitsplitta wrote:@Blackhand : I have an idea for the swamp scouts... think Apocalypse Now... think "The End" by The Doors. Let that bounce around in your brain for a bit and maybe you'll figure out where I'm going.


Scouts in the heart of darkness?


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 00:33:20


Post by: Gitsplitta


@Niilo: Add water to the equation...

My thought is to have the scouts wading through mid-riff deep water with swampy bits around the edges. So I'd model them from the waist up, with them set in the bottom of the base as Blackhand suggests, but rather than having gravel and stuff down in the base "compartment" it would just be painted black & filled with the doming resin. Reminiscent of Martin Sheen rising up from the water on his mission to take out Kurtz.

Blackhand... can you give me a brand name on that doming resin, just in case I can't find it locally and have to order it over the net?

I've also been experimenting with ways of creating good clumps of tall grass... think I've figured out a good, repeatable method (besides just putting the glue on the base, sticking the grass in it and hoping for the best).

Thanks!



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 00:35:07


Post by: tony_nids_10


I am truely excited to see that!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 05:15:15


Post by: BLACKHAND


The clear resin I am using has been rebranded with the name of the store I buy it from so I can't help with a brand name unfortunately, but the product itself is called doming resin and should be available in hobby or hardware stores, sorry I cant be more help.

Also my sabretooth marines are going to need clumps of prairie grass on the bases so any tips on gluing long grass down will be much appreciated.

And a word of warning, clear resin can take up to three days to cure but the effect is worth the wait



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 06:36:01


Post by: Gitsplitta


Thanks Blackhand... I'll look for it... and I can be very patient.


O.K., tonight's installment... a quick "how to do tall grass" tutorial. No pics (it's simple) but I can add pic's if you like.

First, get your tall grass stock, I use Woodland Scenic's "field grass" and make the size bundle you want. I usually take about half as much as I need, cut the filaments in half and double them up. If they're too tall it's best, you need them to start too tall. What I found out with my tall grass is that if you plant them in superglue, the parallel filaments of the grass will draw the glue up between them, which effectively forms the grass into a solid column of grass fibers... not easy to work with and does not look good. Rather than fight this though (not sure how you would... you use it to your advantage. Here's how...

1. Take a half-sized shock of grass, remember you want it extra tall for this.
2. Cut in half and combine the two halves.
3. Take some super glue and put it on a flat surface, I spread mine out a little bit with a toothpick to flatten the glue bubble out a bit.
4. Take the "bottom" of the grass clump and dip it into the superglue, then pull it back out.
5. Give a few seconds for the glue to set up a bit, then take a paper towel and roll the bottom of the grass clump briefly, this will draw out the excess glue (for some reason the grass does not stick to the paper towel immediately, so you can get away with it.
6. Give it a few more seconds and lightly roll the bottom glued part between your fingers to give it a round cross section, again, I haven't had problems with the clump sticking to my fingers.
6. Set aside and let dry thoroughly.
7. When grass is dry, you'll be able to see the point that the glue was "drawn" up to by the fibers. Take a scissors or hobby knife and cut about 1/8 below it, getting rid of most of the glued part of the stalk, but keeping just a little bit in order to give your grass a solid base.
8. Put a little dab of glue on the base and place your grass in it, Since the fibers at the base are now glued, it should not draw up any more glue (unless you put too much glue on the base, this also means the fibers are free to be moved and re-positioned almost all the way to the base, which gives a much more natural look.

Toodles!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 06:57:22


Post by: BLACKHAND


Cheers 'Splitta , thats going to come in really handy...course I still have to order the grass!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 08:41:46


Post by: Nowlan


If you can't find what Blackhand suggests, I'd reccomend trying Woodland Scenics' "realistic water"
http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/C1212/page/1

I imagine that a few drops of paint or maybe even green food coloring (or both?) added to it and mixed in before pouring it into the base would achieve a realistic effect.

Should be easy enough to find at any hobby shop that sells model railroad supplies, as the brand is pretty much a staple for scale railroad builders.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 12:41:45


Post by: Gitsplitta


@Nowlan: I actually have some of that running around already... used to do some model RR stuff. Problem is that when it dries it pulls away from the edges, giving you a concave surface. That's OK for model railroading... not so good for a little base. (better than nothing though). That's why the doming resin idea was so intriguing... might not pull away as badly.


Another thing for the 3 or 4 of you still reading to consider...

A friend of mine just pointed out the section in the back of the SM Codex where you can give your DIY chapter disadvantages and advantages. Since I already have one major disadvantage (Flesh Over Steel) and probably two minor disadvantages (Have Faith in Suspicion & We Stand Alone). I thought about taking some advantages. I've never played against anyone who's done this... my friend assures me that as part of the codex, it's legal to do. So there you have it. Anyone know anything different?

So I can pick two, unrelated advantages. I was thinking as follows... (these are both fluff-based, but they do help the chapter out as well)

Honor the Wisdom of the Ancients (dreads can be taken as heavies, but all Elite Dreads must be venerable) - this would mean I wouldn't have to take a MoTF every battle in order to get my dreads as heavy support...
Purity Above All - (Vet Sergeants can be upgraded to Apothecarys) This is a very nice compliment to my "survivors" theory as to how the MW's survived their crusade. And two of my "signature units" would benefit (Sternguard and Vanguard). It's a minor thing, but being able to ignore one blown normal save per turn isn't too bad. Not worth the points for the upgrade... but it's fluffy.

Thoughts??



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 13:09:48


Post by: tony_nids_10


Honor the Wisdom of the Ancients (dreads can be taken as heavies, but all Elite Dreads must be venerable) - this would mean I wouldn't have to take a MoTF every battle in order to get my dreads as heavy support...
Purity Above All - (Vet Sergeants can be upgraded to Apothecarys) This is a very nice compliment to my "survivors" theory as to how the MW's survived their crusade. And two of my "signature units" would benefit (Sternguard and Vanguard). It's a minor thing, but being able to ignore one blown normal save per turn isn't too bad. Not worth the points for the upgrade... but it's fluffy.

Thoughts??


My old SM army ran a few of these. Makes it feel alot more personalized IMO. Good choices on yours btw, fits in well with your fluff!


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 13:11:42


Post by: Finch Claw


(b) I think you should keep the chain sword idea (You could say that they didn't put much effort into there army so why are they complaining? )

An advantage rule, maybe something like a Mantis some dash attack? The enemy doesn't see them until there in range of the dash . (yeah I know its cheap ).


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 13:24:00


Post by: Gitsplitta


@tony: Yeah, that's what I thought... this is like... one step better than just putting apothecary shoulder pads on one man in each squad, because it actually puts an apothecary in each squad... and it's legal! In the vet squads at least, getting a "free" failed (normal) save forgiven each turn is actually more valuable as the point cost of the figures is so much higher. Might help make the Stern & Van (especially the Van) worth the points.

@Finch: Yeah, I like the look of the chainswords best myself... think I'll just use them as "counts as lightening claws", unless I have some great epiphany as to how to make good looking power sword mantis arms. Your "dash" idea is an interesting one, save that there is no "dash" ability in the codex and one of basic principles was to make this an entirely legal army.... no DIY rules. Has to be able to be played anywhere with no special permissions given by opponent.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 13:28:42


Post by: tony_nids_10


Wouldn't furious charge or something along those lines be roughly the same as a "dash" ?

I don't know why everyone seems to overlook apoths. I loved them and they saved my but a few times when it came down to saves.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 14:14:00


Post by: whalemusic360


What page number is this on? Or is it the 4th Ed codex? I only ask because A) I cant find it and B) Apoths give the unit FNP now, not the ignore a failed save.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 14:16:13


Post by: tony_nids_10


It was in the 4th codex I believe.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 14:17:41


Post by: Gitsplitta


Hang it all!! I just realized I was looking in the 4th edition rule book for all this stuff... and I can't find my 5th Ed. rule book.


O.K. Scratch all the above discussion of abilities. Sorry guys.


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 14:18:12


Post by: whalemusic360


Ahh, so you'd have to get permission anyways.

Argh, ninja'd
I think all the Combat Tactics and different HQs replaced that stuff. Sorry to burst your bubble :(


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 14:22:03


Post by: tony_nids_10


I'm sure you could find someone to play a 4th ed game with you, though you may have to deal with that darn nidzilla crap....


Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 14:31:40


Post by: Gitsplitta


Meh, that's OK... I wasn't counting on it... so it's no big deal. Was fun there for a moment though. :-)



Gitsplitta's Unified Painting Theory (2/23: EC praetor on bike kit-bash, and the master plan) @ 2010/05/15 14:52:42


Post by: tony_nids_10


I hope this god forsaken game is around when my boys get old enough to play too!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinking about that issue with the joints on the mantic "claws" What about using the hubs from SM bikes? Its small, circular and with a bit of shaving on the back side (theres a joke in there somewhere) they would prob look pretty cool.