Grey Templar wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So guys, how is it that Dreadknights get S10 now all the time?

I was just trying to find it, but didn't see anything in the FAQ; is it something in the BRB?

The rules for DCCWs changed. They don't have the walker restriction anymore. If you have one, it doubles your Str and is AP2 at inititive.

The rules for the sword also give the reroll ability passivly. You don't use the sword as the primary weapon to gain the benifit(its wording is explicitly different to all other Nemisis weapons)

And neither the Sword nor DCCW are specilist weapons so they can give +1A to each other.


So a DK with a sword has 4 Str10 attacks with rerolls to hit, wound, and armor penetration.

I guess all Str10 attacks makes the fact this is a ridiculously expensive monstrous creature a bit easier to swallow, maybe... sword buffs are crazy with S10, you basically smear just about anything you come into contact with.

doc1234 wrote:If it was an older codex, id agree, but the amount of stuff in the GK codex that made 0 sence in 5ed, but does in 6ed (changes to combat rules for instance means digital weapons on champion is no longer so odd) the wording "power WEAPONS" instead of power SWORDS seems purposely vague, to give a choice.

I do agree with this one. Prime example - Dreadknights. Why did they give Dreadknights DCCWs, we all puzzled in 5th ed. Now, DCCWs work in 6th ed on them.

Although, I don't get the example of the digital weapons on champion. Could you help me explain that one?

Also, from what it looks like, it seems that GW wants you to convert your own miniatures for Henchmen Squads. Or buy bits from all over the place (i.e. Techmarine servitors, IG Psykers, etc.) to represent them - I figure they would've released a Henchmen Squad boxed set otherwise. As it stands, there's no reason why you can't use Fantasy miniatures for DCAs and use the halberd as an axe, etc. Honestly, none of the LGSes here in this country carry the DCA miniatures - they're just not popular enough for it to be stocked. Even the GW store didn't have them. I wouldn't count it as a modelling for advantage - I'd count it as modelling for hobby. And as doc1234 also said, it does appear like it was intentionally vague for a reason.

Because that's not how they come

Oh come off it. You're seriously saying that unless a model comes with all the wargear options in the codex available to it eithe ron the sculpt or in the box, then to model those options is illegal?

If codex GK or its updated FAQ said DCA come with two power swords then fair enough. As the codex says power weapons (3 types available under the rules) and the FAQ is noteable by its silence on the matter then those who wish to have axe and sword need only do the work to model them so.

Grey Templar wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So guys, how is it that Dreadknights get S10 now all the time?

I was just trying to find it, but didn't see anything in the FAQ; is it something in the BRB?

The rules for DCCWs changed. They don't have the walker restriction anymore. If you have one, it doubles your Str and is AP2 at inititive.

The rules for the sword also give the reroll ability passivly. You don't use the sword as the primary weapon to gain the benifit(its wording is explicitly different to all other Nemisis weapons)

And neither the Sword nor DCCW are specilist weapons so they can give +1A to each other.


So a DK with a sword has 4 Str10 attacks with rerolls to hit, wound, and armor penetration.

are you sure??? bc in the BRB, (p51, more than one weapon rule) you can never mix and match weapon abilities... so you only strike one weapon.... DCCW or Greatsword... but you do still gain the +1 attack for have two CC weapon....

hawkology wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So guys, how is it that Dreadknights get S10 now all the time?

I was just trying to find it, but didn't see anything in the FAQ; is it something in the BRB?

The rules for DCCWs changed. They don't have the walker restriction anymore. If you have one, it doubles your Str and is AP2 at inititive.

The rules for the sword also give the reroll ability passivly. You don't use the sword as the primary weapon to gain the benifit(its wording is explicitly different to all other Nemisis weapons)

And neither the Sword nor DCCW are specilist weapons so they can give +1A to each other.


So a DK with a sword has 4 Str10 attacks with rerolls to hit, wound, and armor penetration.

are you sure??? bc in the BRB, (p51, more than one weapon rule) you can never mix and match weapon abilities... so you only strike one weapon.... DCCW or Greatsword... but you do still gain the +1 attack for have two CC weapon....

There is a pretty long thread about this in YMDC, mostly about the usage of 'wielded' and 'with'

The Dreadknight only has to be equipped with the sword to gain those advantages, not actually "wielding"/attacking specifically with it.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

hawkology wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So guys, how is it that Dreadknights get S10 now all the time?

I was just trying to find it, but didn't see anything in the FAQ; is it something in the BRB?

The rules for DCCWs changed. They don't have the walker restriction anymore. If you have one, it doubles your Str and is AP2 at inititive.

The rules for the sword also give the reroll ability passivly. You don't use the sword as the primary weapon to gain the benifit(its wording is explicitly different to all other Nemisis weapons)

And neither the Sword nor DCCW are specilist weapons so they can give +1A to each other.


So a DK with a sword has 4 Str10 attacks with rerolls to hit, wound, and armor penetration.

are you sure??? bc in the BRB, (p51, more than one weapon rule) you can never mix and match weapon abilities... so you only strike one weapon.... DCCW or Greatsword... but you do still gain the +1 attack for have two CC weapon....

There is a pretty long thread about this in YMDC, mostly about the usage of 'wielded' and 'with'

The Dreadknight only has to be equipped with the sword to gain those advantages, not actually "wielding"/attacking specifically with it.

don't get me wrong... ima GK player (mine are called Dark Knights bc i heart Batman), but i think this is a RAI instead of a RAW... bc GW always have terrible wording, and is always arguable....

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

Because that's not how they come

Oh come off it. You're seriously saying that unless a model comes with all the wargear options in the codex available to it eithe ron the sculpt or in the box, then to model those options is illegal?

No, there are plenty of situations where a stock model doesn't have an option that you're legally allowed to use - that the codex explicitly allows you. Modifying a model to be WYSIWYG with its rules is not only acceptable, it's required in the rules.

DCA are not in that situation.

DCA have an official model. They have no 'option' in the codex to pick a type of power weapon. And they are modeled with swords. Every DCA model ever made has had swords. The Inquisitor DCA models have swords. Where DCA have appeared in fluff, in the Black Library books, they've had swords. They've had swords in every concept image of them. Clipping off those swords and attaching axes is clearly, blatantly, modelling for an in-game advantage - that of having the potential for AP2 when you need it. You wouldn't have done it before the 6th ed rulebook came out. No one ever posted anything about changing the weapons on their DCA until doing so got them an advantage.

Just because you think that the designers intent is to allow you to do whatever you want, you have no evidence to support that position. I 'think' that the Fighta Ace upgrade on a Dakka Jet is intended to give them a +1BS against other flyers, but that's not what it says in their rules or in the FAQ. As a sportsman, I'm not going to claim that +1BS when I play against someone, even though it should probably be there. Likewise, I'm not going to model for advantage, even if that might have been intended. I see no evidence to support that claim though. To me, the rules for varying types of power weapons are there to support the model ranges that have different types of power weapons. Chaos Terminators, Sisters of Battle, Space Marine characters - these actually have different models with different types of weapons. DCA do not. They have swords.

They have no 'option' in the codex to pick a type of power weapon

Yes they do.

A power weapon is one of four things:

power sword
power axe
power maul
power lance

A DCA has by the codex two power weapons. they type of weapon is unspecified and thus could be any combination of any two of the four.

As it's stupendously obvious that any model may be modified to have any weapon allowed by its codex, it makes no sense to argue that DCA may not opt to choose any power weapon the choose, just as any othe rmodel allowed a power weapon in any codex may do.

Redbeard wrote:

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

Because that's not how they come

Oh come off it. You're seriously saying that unless a model comes with all the wargear options in the codex available to it eithe ron the sculpt or in the box, then to model those options is illegal?

No, there are plenty of situations where a stock model doesn't have an option that you're legally allowed to use - that the codex explicitly allows you. Modifying a model to be WYSIWYG with its rules is not only acceptable, it's required in the rules.

DCA are not in that situation.

DCA have an official model. They have no 'option' in the codex to pick a type of power weapon. And they are modeled with swords. Every DCA model ever made has had swords. The Inquisitor DCA models have swords. Where DCA have appeared in fluff, in the Black Library books, they've had swords. They've had swords in every concept image of them. Clipping off those swords and attaching axes is clearly, blatantly, modelling for an in-game advantage - that of having the potential for AP2 when you need it. You wouldn't have done it before the 6th ed rulebook came out. No one ever posted anything about changing the weapons on their DCA until doing so got them an advantage.

Just because you think that the designers intent is to allow you to do whatever you want, you have no evidence to support that position. I 'think' that the Fighta Ace upgrade on a Dakka Jet is intended to give them a +1BS against other flyers, but that's not what it says in their rules or in the FAQ. As a sportsman, I'm not going to claim that +1BS when I play against someone, even though it should probably be there. Likewise, I'm not going to model for advantage, even if that might have been intended. I see no evidence to support that claim though. To me, the rules for varying types of power weapons are there to support the model ranges that have different types of power weapons. Chaos Terminators, Sisters of Battle, Space Marine characters - these actually have different models with different types of weapons. DCA do not. They have swords.

So that logic almost no one should be able to use power lances? I do not know of any model that comes with a power lance

kenshin620 wrote:So that logic almost no one should be able to use power lances? I do not know of any model that comes with a power lance

Yet.

I don't know of any model that has Flakk missiles yet either. Clearly they have written rules for things that are yet to be released.

Besides, Rough Rider and Shining Spear models have power lances.

Enough about the DCAs please, don't dilute this valuable thread with stuff that should be in YMDC.

Sethorly wrote:Enough about the DCAs please, don't dilute this valuable thread with stuff that should be in YMDC.

+1

Tried the paladins today, and my rival surrended in my 2º turn, after my shooting.

I was very lucky, though.

Got 3 bases in the heavy mission, occupied the 3, I was behind buildings, made first blood with the jokaeros to a razorback, my dread was OOR from his longfangs, well, everything was. The stormraven killed 3 wolves of 4, with stormshield, Coteaz exploded the drop pod by his special rule and the jokaeros, and the guys from the pod died from my shooting paladins. He dropped Logan in the pod, so I had 3 points, 1 from first blood, 1 from warlord kill... it was won.

So, yet, the paladins worth the points, but gonna try them tomorrow vs DE.

EDIT:

I've been thinking a lot about adding Sammael and 6 bikes, being them very good now, instead of something. 445 points for Sammael, 6 bikes w/ 2 melta.

Enigwolf wrote:

doc1234 wrote:If it was an older codex, id agree, but the amount of stuff in the GK codex that made 0 sence in 5ed, but does in 6ed (changes to combat rules for instance means digital weapons on champion is no longer so odd) the wording "power WEAPONS" instead of power SWORDS seems purposely vague, to give a choice.

I do agree with this one. Prime example - Dreadknights. Why did they give Dreadknights DCCWs, we all puzzled in 5th ed. Now, DCCWs work in 6th ed on them.

Although, I don't get the example of the digital weapons on champion. Could you help me explain that one?

Also, from what it looks like, it seems that GW wants you to convert your own miniatures for Henchmen Squads. Or buy bits from all over the place (i.e. Techmarine servitors, IG Psykers, etc.) to represent them - I figure they would've released a Henchmen Squad boxed set otherwise. As it stands, there's no reason why you can't use Fantasy miniatures for DCAs and use the halberd as an axe, etc. Honestly, none of the LGSes here in this country carry the DCA miniatures - they're just not popular enough for it to be stocked. Even the GW store didn't have them. I wouldn't count it as a modelling for advantage - I'd count it as modelling for hobby. And as doc1234 also said, it does appear like it was intentionally vague for a reason.

Basically, back in 5ed champions got a reroll for WS7 in combat anyway, thus the points for digital weapons was a bit of a headscratcher. Now they make sense, 6ed combat works differently remember, WS7 now just means he will hit enemies of lower WS on a 3+, so if you want a reroll you need the digital weapons. Same as the eversor assassin, all the others got a super-duper-special piece of wargear, he got...a lightning claw. On top of WS8, meaning he was getting rerolls already (and of course, can only reroll once). Now, hes hitting on 3+ instead of 2+/4+, so the lightning claw is actually doing its job. As i said, lotsa stuff in the codex is actually starting to make sense, these are just examples iv found so far


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:So that logic almost no one should be able to use power lances? I do not know of any model that comes with a power lance

Yet.

I don't know of any model that has Flakk missiles yet either. Clearly they have written rules for things that are yet to be released.

Besides, Rough Rider and Shining Spear models have power lances.

pretty sure they aint power lances... Rider spears are just guardsmen weapons with an effect that lasts for one charge only, power lances work throughout the game on the charge. (not sure on shining spears)

Also was fiddling with a list that was -
Draigo
12 paladins (10 squad Banner + Apo and 2 squad for babysitting an Obj)
3 Dreadknights (tele & incin)
1850 pts

Would be pretty silly! Would likely only take 2 DKs though, and probably a psyrifle dread to sit in the back. Although I'm not sure what my opponent would do if he had 3 DKs in his forces.

I actually quite like at least a dread with either AC or some other load out if you intend to assault something but I'd still recommend AC. Anyways, the reason is for the improved aegis. It's quite nice to force leadership for psykers on a 6 or 5, alot more failures. Throw in a deny the witch on a 5, and you'll be in good shape not to kill yourself by crazy powers like telekenesis roll of 6 (w/e that mind control thing was), or psy shreeeeeeeeeeeek + lower morale combos, or doooooooom

Still not sure it works on Jaws though...

Basically, back in 5ed champions got a reroll for WS7 in combat anyway, thus the points for digital weapons was a bit of a headscratcher. Now they make sense, 6ed combat works differently remember, WS7 now just means he will hit enemies of lower WS on a 3+, so if you want a reroll you need the digital weapons. Same as the eversor assassin, all the others got a super-duper-special piece of wargear, he got...a lightning claw. On top of WS8, meaning he was getting rerolls already (and of course, can only reroll once). Now, hes hitting on 3+ instead of 2+/4+, so the lightning claw is actually doing its job. As i said, lotsa stuff in the codex is actually starting to make sense, these are just examples iv found so far

wait a min, I thought in 5th, you only got to reroll missed shooting for BS of 6 or better.The WS table didn't change did it? You always just hit on 3+ for most things. WS of like 10 was essentially meaningless especially now unless you were fighting something ws 8 or something I guess. Never had rerolls for ws better than 6 before

sudojoe wrote:

Also was fiddling with a list that was -
Draigo
12 paladins (10 squad Banner + Apo and 2 squad for babysitting an Obj)
3 Dreadknights (tele & incin)
1850 pts

Would be pretty silly! Would likely only take 2 DKs though, and probably a psyrifle dread to sit in the back. Although I'm not sure what my opponent would do if he had 3 DKs in his forces.

I actually quite like at least a dread with either AC or some other load out if you intend to assault something but I'd still recommend AC. Anyways, the reason is for the improved aegis. It's quite nice to force leadership for psykers on a 6 or 5, alot more failures. Throw in a deny the witch on a 5, and you'll be in good shape not to kill yourself by crazy powers like telekenesis roll of 6 (w/e that mind control thing was), or psy shreeeeeeeeeeeek + lower morale combos, or doooooooom

Still not sure it works on Jaws though...

Basically, back in 5ed champions got a reroll for WS7 in combat anyway, thus the points for digital weapons was a bit of a headscratcher. Now they make sense, 6ed combat works differently remember, WS7 now just means he will hit enemies of lower WS on a 3+, so if you want a reroll you need the digital weapons. Same as the eversor assassin, all the others got a super-duper-special piece of wargear, he got...a lightning claw. On top of WS8, meaning he was getting rerolls already (and of course, can only reroll once). Now, hes hitting on 3+ instead of 2+/4+, so the lightning claw is actually doing its job. As i said, lotsa stuff in the codex is actually starting to make sense, these are just examples iv found so far

wait a min, I thought in 5th, you only got to reroll missed shooting for BS of 6 or better.The WS table didn't change did it? You always just hit on 3+ for most things. WS of like 10 was essentially meaningless especially now unless you were fighting something ws 8 or something I guess. Never had rerolls for ws better than 6 before

Nope, WS rerolls in 5ed, its part of why the assassins are nerfed, and how crowe could solo against a horde (his skill that allowed him to not attack, an swap his armour save roll for his weapon skill. that is to say a 2+/3+)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/465048.page#4571064

Take your DCA discussions over there please. I started a new thread there to keep this one on track.

Nope, WS rerolls in 5ed, its part of why the assassins are nerfed, and how crowe could solo against a horde (his skill that allowed him to not attack, an swap his armour save roll for his weapon skill. that is to say a 2+/3+)

Not that important since we're in 6th now, but please check your 5th edition book with p 18, and 37. You do not get WS rerolls. Just BS get reroll as far as I can tell. The digital weapon always made sense for me. Doesn't feel any different atm.

sudojoe wrote:

Nope, WS rerolls in 5ed, its part of why the assassins are nerfed, and how crowe could solo against a horde (his skill that allowed him to not attack, an swap his armour save roll for his weapon skill. that is to say a 2+/3+)

Not that important since we're in 6th now, but please check your 5th edition book with p 18, and 37. You do not get WS rerolls. Just BS get reroll as far as I can tell. The digital weapon always made sense for me. Doesn't feel any different atm.

What are you guys talking about? Castellan Crowe has absolutely no ability that lets him "swap his armour save roll for his weapon skill." And yeah, WS doesn't grant "high-level re-rolls" (a la BS6+) in 5th or 6th edition. High WS gives no bonus except hitting on 3+ on anything of lower WS, this has not changed from 5th to 6th.

And Digital Weapons on Brochamps is still stupid, just as it was in 5th edition. It grants a single re-roll To Wound on a weapon that already re-rolls all failed rolls To Wound. It still doesn't do anything.

Xca|iber wrote:

sudojoe wrote:

Nope, WS rerolls in 5ed, its part of why the assassins are nerfed, and how crowe could solo against a horde (his skill that allowed him to not attack, an swap his armour save roll for his weapon skill. that is to say a 2+/3+)

Not that important since we're in 6th now, but please check your 5th edition book with p 18, and 37. You do not get WS rerolls. Just BS get reroll as far as I can tell. The digital weapon always made sense for me. Doesn't feel any different atm.

What are you guys talking about? Castellan Crowe has absolutely no ability that lets him "swap his armour save roll for his weapon skill." And yeah, WS doesn't grant "high-level re-rolls" (a la BS6+) in 5th or 6th edition. High WS gives no bonus except hitting on 3+ on anything of lower WS, this has not changed from 5th to 6th.

And Digital Weapons on Brochamps is still stupid, just as it was in 5th edition. It grants a single re-roll To Wound on a weapon that already re-rolls all failed rolls To Wound. It still doesn't do anything.

Ah apologies then, 40k isnt hugely played where i am and i learned 5ed by doing. Looks like some of those lovely at the club have some 'splaining to do -_-

as for the brochamps think, never used em before so only ever glanced over their page yeah apologies, disgregard like 70% of what i chat sometimes ><

DakotaBlue wrote:I've been thinking a lot about adding Sammael and 6 bikes, being them very good now, instead of something. 445 points for Sammael, 6 bikes w/ 2 melta.

Exactly what I've been considering.

Sethorly wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:I've been thinking a lot about adding Sammael and 6 bikes, being them very good now, instead of something. 445 points for Sammael, 6 bikes w/ 2 melta.

Exactly what I've been considering.

Hrm... interesting. Why him though vs a space marine captain and attack bikes? (Honestly don't know as I never played much DA at all so unsure what this really adds other than some nice bike army component that are quite useful atm)


Anyways, more math! (stuck at work)

AC dread has a 7.22% chance to take down (explode/wreck w/e) a flier per 4 shots

Roughly it will take you 11-10 psycannon shots (non-twin linked) to achieve the same same kill ratio at around 7.98 to 7.07% chance to destroy. With 4 shots each, that's about 3 psycannons! (if they jink save themselves of course)

casting divination on them will just require some 3-4 psycannon shots (or 1 psycannon) to get almost 7 to 9.8% kill chance

Quad gun with someone with BS 4 shooting it - about 18.16% chance to down an AV 11 flier.. You will need exactly 8 shots from combined 2 AC dreads to equal that kill chance. (with them jink saving for a 5+ of course)

It will take some 20 psycannon shots to equal that at non-twin linked (or roughly 5 psycannons - 2 to 3 squads of purifiers or 3 large squads of strike squads) without divination to equal that.

Last night I was farting around with an orc buddy and I used a couple of Solodins as a joke and they were surprisingly really effective, I deepstruck them behind enemy lines and started to drop Pie plates on squads of boyz, He was forced to divert his large squads to kill off a single figure, or have pie plates keep landing on him. That tarpited his unit for a whole round, the other paladin wasn't lucky and was smashed under the weight of orc attacks in the first assault phase. I kitted them with hammers but wasn't sure if I would have prefered halberds.

Goat wrote:Last night I was farting around with an orc buddy and I used a couple of Solodins as a joke and they were surprisingly really effective, I deepstruck them behind enemy lines and started to drop Pie plates on squads of boyz, He was forced to divert his large squads to kill off a single figure, or have pie plates keep landing on him. That tarpited his unit for a whole round, the other paladin wasn't lucky and was smashed under the weight of orc attacks in the first assault phase. I kitted them with hammers but wasn't sure if I would have prefered halberds.

Personally I like my solodins with a halberd as They tend to see the beat down by a large waves of things. It gives them the edge in initiative so they might kill a few before getting killed. Staffs are overkill for a solo'din. Hammers often mean I might not get to swing before I drown in wounds.

Also updated a new assasin trick on the first page.

If you're going to pair a solo paladin with Draigo for a T5 deepstrike unit then it's worth giving that solo paladin a stave if possible as it gives more options when they assault.

It's also worth giving him a stave if he's going to be an objective lurker -- remember he can challenge an enemy character and thus fight one one one, giving a greater potential for tying up the enemy unit for longer. Generally i find points can't really be spared for this though as usually 20 points is more useful elsewhere.

My own opinion is that a sword is otherwise best -- he's striking at the same time, or before, most squads are and it gives him a marginally greater chance of surviving low AP strikes.

Well, today I, while I was testing the paladins vs DE (very effective, btw), looking the character page in the rulebook... they can asign wounds to targets if they hit with a 6... 4 psycannons doing that, did the rest of the job. I will add coteaz to that unit, as well, to give them divination powers.

Last fights, vs Wolves and DE, I found paladin deathstar very effective.

Tomorrow I'll try them vs orks.

Draigo, Coteaz, and 10 paladins?

lol, would be so much fun.

Well, as long as you aren't fighting eldar, then you may as well not even cast any psychic powers.

Do you assign wounds before rolling to wound? So 6s on hits lets you assign where they go basically?

daedalus-templarius wrote:Do you assign wounds before rolling to wound? So 6s on hits lets you assign where they go basically?

Exactly. 4 psycannons doing that.

And I was fighting vs DE allied with Eldar, I did not cast a single thing at all, didn't wanted to get wounded because Eldrad.

DakotaBlue wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Do you assign wounds before rolling to wound? So 6s on hits lets you assign where they go basically?

Exactly. 4 psycannons doing that.

And I was fighting vs DE allied with Eldar, I did not cast a single thing at all, didn't wanted to get wounded because Eldrad.

Yea I always take 4 Psycannons on my Paladins, but I keep forgetting I can assign where they go on 6s. Although in my last game it was basically shooting fish in a barrel considering how many gaunts were trying to run my squad down; I didn't really need to assign them.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Do you assign wounds before rolling to wound? So 6s on hits lets you assign where they go basically?

Exactly. 4 psycannons doing that.

And I was fighting vs DE allied with Eldar, I did not cast a single thing at all, didn't wanted to get wounded because Eldrad.

Yea I always take 4 Psycannons on my Paladins, but I keep forgetting I can assign where they go on 6s. Although in my last game it was basically shooting fish in a barrel considering how many gaunts were trying to run my squad down; I didn't really need to assign them.

Of course, vs waves of things it's useless, but it's a very good thing to have for free. Killed Eldrad that way, and my rival just went full derp with the paladins allocating wounds, and distribuying themselves with LOS. He almost ragequitted, but then he calmed down.

BTW, looking about adding some allies with bikes, right now I would add Kor'sarro and 5 bikes or more, not Sammael. But I'll wait to the initiation box and the new DA codex or rules.

I'm really not buying into this terminator hype. With more general plasma they have worse problems than before, despite the odd specific assault phase.

Paladins on the other hand are looking even more attractive. Do you need 10? Or would 5 with 2 mastercrafted psycannons and a stave be sufficient?

Sethorly wrote:I'm really not buying into this terminator hype. With more general plasma they have worse problems than before, despite the odd specific assault phase.

Paladins on the other hand are looking even more attractive. Do you need 10? Or would 5 with 2 mastercrafted psycannons and a stave be sufficient?

I really like the full pack.

1x Sword, mastercrafted psycannon
1x Halberd, mastercrafted psycannon
1x Halberd, mastercrafted psycannon
1x Hammer, mastercrafted psycannon
1x Halberd
1x Stave, nartecium
1x Hammer
1x Sword
1x Banner
1x Hammer

Psy ammo

790 points total. Now add Draigo. 1045 points.

It's half of your list, and it's not full tested, but right now is 2 / 0 / 0 for me.

Well the nice thing is that your hammer units are also your troops for taking objectives with Draigo at the lead.

Well if you are running cotez with your paladins
i've been running grps of 10 without the master crafted because cotez can allow all rerolls with the divination power
i dont find the 75pts worth taking for feel no pain anymore. 4 psycannons are a must

so i run
4pyscannons
3swords
4halbers
2hammers
banner
pysbot turns out 675pts.

once i remodel the paladins i will be putting in more hammers and 1 staff.

but at 675 points they can take your oppents whole army shooting at them for a few turns depending what he has of coarse so its a giant bullet magnet and can Do some serious damage in the shooting phase being able to re-roll all misses.

If anything I would say the 75pt apothecary is even more important. Since you can now take FnP against AP1 and AP2 Paladins can be much more durable against things that ignore their armor but don't cause ID.

Grey Templar wrote:If anything I would say the 75pt apothecary is even more important. Since you can now take FnP against AP1 and AP2 Paladins can be much more durable against things that ignore their armor but don't cause ID.

Yep. And with all that plasma around, and that we can't take biomancy with Coteaz for them, it's a must.

Ah... I have wet dreams thinking in Biomancy for Coteaz and my paladins.

I too experience Biomancy envy.

Divination on Draigo with Primaris power... all Psycannons and Psybolt stormbolters are basically twin-linked. So, if you already have a re-roll from the divination power, do you get another reroll for the weapon being master-crafted as well? At that point, it might not be necessary.

Yes, will probably use that instead of his flame attack from now on... I think you can do this, can't you? Hmm, apparently not. I was under the impression you could turn in powers for new ones, but it looks like only a Librarian and Coteaz would be applicable.

Yea its too bad Coteaz can't take Biomancy, that would be ridiculous.

Draigo can't take the rulebook powers. Only Librarians can do that.

Grey Templar wrote:Draigo can't take the rulebook powers. Only Librarians can do that.

And inquisitors. Draigos power is counted along the lines of hammerhand though so your right on that one.

How does the assigning wounds from pallies work? If the target dies, do you get to re-assign the remaining pool, or does it just go on to the closest model?

Stoffer wrote:How does the assigning wounds from pallies work? If the target dies, do you get to re-assign the remaining pool, or does it just go on to the closest model?

It is like every other unit in the game, but with the thing that everyone can make everyone a LoS, because everyone is a character.

DakotaBlue wrote:

Stoffer wrote:How does the assigning wounds from pallies work? If the target dies, do you get to re-assign the remaining pool, or does it just go on to the closest model?

It is like every other unit in the game, but with the thing that everyone can make everyone a LoS, because everyone is a character.

So if I assign 3 wounds to the sargeant in the back, he dies to the first wound the remaining 2 go on the closest model or do I continue assigning them? (also sorry for the derail)

Stoffer wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:

Stoffer wrote:How does the assigning wounds from pallies work? If the target dies, do you get to re-assign the remaining pool, or does it just go on to the closest model?

It is like every other unit in the game, but with the thing that everyone can make everyone a LoS, because everyone is a character.

So if I assign 3 wounds to the sargeant in the back, he dies to the first wound the remaining 2 go on the closest model or do I continue assigning them? (also sorry for the derail)

How can you assign 3 wounds to the sargeant in the back? If they're shooting in front of you, you only can assign them to the front guys.

Look Out Sir with paladins works like this.

Suppose I have my models receiving fire in this order:

mc hammer
apothecary/hammer
psycannon/sword
psycannon/halberd
sword.

So first unsaved wound is allocated to the mc hammer. I take saves on him, and we'll say he loses one wound, until the ID hits come in and then I think 'well I'd rather lose a sword to this than the hammer because of what's going to assault me.

So I have a 4+ Look Out Sir from the sword. Let's say I make it and he then rolls a 5 to save and so is fine.

Now the next ID hit still goes on the hammer. Again, I try and make a Look Out Sir from the sword, make it but fail the save. Sword is now dead.

Next and Last ID wound goes on the hammer again and he passes.

Now another unit fires from a different angle and let's say an ID hit goes on a psycannon. I want to keep my psycannon, the hammer has already taken a wound, so I Look Out Sir with the wounded hammer, make my 4+ so he takes the hit, and then fail my 5+ invun, so he's dead.


Note in this instance I could have done the LOS after wounds were lost as all saves are the same here, but that's often not true if one model is in cover and another not, or in assault where you may well have a 2++ stave doing Look Out Sir's for everyone (also not for that reason an Apothecary/Stave is a bad combination as you want the Apothecary alive as long as possible, not taking hits for the team, even with 2++)

Or if you have Draigo with his 3++. It's pretty good for Look Out, Patheticwarriorcomparedwithme.

DakotaBlue wrote:

Stoffer wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:

Stoffer wrote:How does the assigning wounds from pallies work? If the target dies, do you get to re-assign the remaining pool, or does it just go on to the closest model?

It is like every other unit in the game, but with the thing that everyone can make everyone a LoS, because everyone is a character.

So if I assign 3 wounds to the sargeant in the back, he dies to the first wound the remaining 2 go on the closest model or do I continue assigning them? (also sorry for the derail)

How can you assign 3 wounds to the sargeant in the back? If they're shooting in front of you, you only can assign them to the front guys.

With 6s?

I just came up with a wierd way to keep my storm raven on the board and get around the zooming rule but not sure if it'd work. wanted to hash it out a bit before I added it to the first page.

Units involved - librarian + mystic in some sort of squad, along with the lovely storm raven gunboat (nothing on board) with 5 point extra warp stabalizing thingy

Power - the summoning

------------------------------------

so this is what I envision happening - storm raven goes 18' on the board, shoots some stuff and then even with fancy pivoting, can be going too far to be able to do anything by the 3rd turn. It is unlikely to get back on till turn 5, but if you summon it, You can keep it in play on your side of the board if your liby is say hiding in the back. The mystic would make it not scatter. And with you essentially deep striking it, you can point it anywhere you want to.

Does this feel like it's even remotely useful or just some wacky gimic that won't really do anything?

sudojoe wrote:I just came up with a wierd way to keep my storm raven on the board and get around the zooming rule but not sure if it'd work. wanted to hash it out a bit before I added it to the first page.

Units involved - librarian + mystic in some sort of squad, along with the lovely storm raven gunboat (nothing on board) with 5 point extra warp stabalizing thingy

Power - the summoning

------------------------------------

so this is what I envision happening - storm raven goes 18' on the board, shoots some stuff and then even with fancy pivoting, can be going too far to be able to do anything by the 3rd turn. It is unlikely to get back on till turn 5, but if you summon it, You can keep it in play on your side of the board if your liby is say hiding in the back. The mystic would make it not scatter. And with you essentially deep striking it, you can point it anywhere you want to.

Does this feel like it's even remotely useful or just some wacky gimic that won't really do anything?

I think its a gimic, but its a useful one without a doubt. I'd still prefer to T1 use dread to take out stuff that would easy glance/pen the raven. T2 the raven comes in and does more of the same. T3 it drops to hover and if need be does more of them same yet again and drops a dread and some troops. Just as an example of a battle report I had against space wolves last night. T1 rifle dreads took some hull points off of 2 Vindicators, T2 rifle dreads kill 1 vindi, the raven kills the other vindi and mows down some longfangs. He sat there and looked at me and said I dont know how to deal with this now. So as it being a friendly game, and I didn't want to crush all of his morale I just kept it in hover mode the rest of the game it was eventually immobilized on T5

sudojoe wrote:I just came up with a wierd way to keep my storm raven on the board and get around the zooming rule but not sure if it'd work. wanted to hash it out a bit before I added it to the first page.

Units involved - librarian + mystic in some sort of squad, along with the lovely storm raven gunboat (nothing on board) with 5 point extra warp stabalizing thingy

Power - the summoning

------------------------------------

so this is what I envision happening - storm raven goes 18' on the board, shoots some stuff and then even with fancy pivoting, can be going too far to be able to do anything by the 3rd turn. It is unlikely to get back on till turn 5, but if you summon it, You can keep it in play on your side of the board if your liby is say hiding in the back. The mystic would make it not scatter. And with you essentially deep striking it, you can point it anywhere you want to.

Does this feel like it's even remotely useful or just some wacky gimic that won't really do anything?

Hm. Interesting gimmick... Seems a little bit of a waste of a Librarian, in my opinion, but nonetheless still an option I'd like to explore for kicks and giggles.

How would the Summoning work with Zooming, though? Would the Stormraven still be counted as Zooming (and thus make its Zoom move) despite being Summoned (and as such deployed as per Deep Strike)?

Summoning treats summoned units as deepstriking. Can you deepstrike zooming, or you need to be in hover?

ya... the more I think on that , the more of a useless gimic for the most part cause I just realized that the vehicle counts as flat out so it can't even fire the weapons by POTMS anymore from the new 6th rules. Oh well wacky combos lol.

Speaking of space wolves, I just realized that you can have two rune priests in your allied detatchment. That's alot more runic weapon coverage!

So far my 6th experiences have been:

gotta have a coverage for a wide variety of problems including

1) Psychic defense / ways to kill psykers ( vs Eldar/GK/SW/BA/tyranids for the most part)

2) Anti-air (just about everyone cept necrons and IG can potentially take out more of your air defences than you have so it's almost vital to have at least some air power yourself )

3) ways to preserve gunline - hold against fast movers/outflank/deep strike

4) at least some anti-horde and ways to get rid of cover.

5) some ways to at least slow down any deathstar / feed them cheap units

6) have some reserves - you really want first blood so keep the squishies off the first turn or so

7) CC tank of somesort with 2+ saves for melee, as well as some ways to deal with challenges and it could be that you just don't have anyone they can challenge

8) survivable objective campers

9) how to deal with 2+ armor

10) mobility

A List really needs to be able to do all of the above in some way shape or form to be good at competing as a TAC list now. Missing one or more of the above really leaves you open to getting curb stomped by some list that goes all out. i.e. if you don't have any psy defense, Nids will eat you whole. No anti-air, necrons will stomp you, no outflank protection, IG got some 8 rhinos and 50 guys that can show up on your door stop or some crazy deep strike crisis suit bomb.

Luckily, GK have some good tools for all of the above:

1) psy defense - mindstrike missles, null rod, psy-out bombardment, condemnor x-bow, psyocculum shooting, and reinforced aegis!

2) Fliers- twin linked weapons are common, but so far my best anti-air has been another storm raven. or of course quad gun

3) outflank - castle one corner and use cotez to defend it. really discourages some folks, also I almost always take a strike squad or interceptor now just to stand in the middle of the map and warp quaking.

4) anti-horde - my space monkies and their flame throwers have failed pretty hard on that front cause I never have enough of them. having DK with incinerator has been very useful. Thinking of paying more for a psylincer now to add to that.

5-6) death stars - so far my list has depended alot on cheap chimeras to feed to the enemy or rhinos or razorbacks and of course running away. I tend to reserve alot now with some squads or just park the vehicles behind cover in the first turn. I have won and lost a few fights now just cause of first blood. Cotez going first really helps with reroll initiative stealing also

7) CC tank - typically I like to have some techmarines with a staff or like a purifier with a staff... or terminator with a staff.. ya.. lots of staffs lol. Liby with staff and the reroll divination power has been really strong for me

8) sturdy objective campers - we can get some nice numbers of bodies but this part I think we're a bit behind. I can't really find enough points to stick crusaders everywhere but I really want to

9) how to deal with terminators -we got choices but does depend a bit on rending for our AP2, we'll also have some issues with volume of fire too. We're definately decent but not to like necron or tau or IG level.

10) mobility- one thing so far I've been struggling with for my scoring units as I now no longer depend on my cheap transports to get anywhere. Something like bikes/jetbikes or what not from allies that are fast moving troops are going to be really useful I think but I don't have alot of personal experience with it though I feel like it should work. Anyone have any experience on this?

No, Deep Striking counts as moving at Cruising Speed now IIRC. So a Flyer can Deep Strike, say it was Zooming, and be able to fire 4 weapons.

First blood is easy to achieve with Coteaz, 2 Jokaeros and a Techmarine with Conversion beam. I'm getting it every match.

DakotaBlue wrote:Well, today I, while I was testing the paladins vs DE (very effective, btw), looking the character page in the rulebook... they can asign wounds to targets if they hit with a 6... 4 psycannons doing that, did the rest of the job. I will add coteaz to that unit, as well, to give them divination powers.

Last fights, vs Wolves and DE, I found paladin deathstar very effective.

Tomorrow I'll try them vs orks.

Well, if the Paladins are tied up by a large Ork mob, they will get stuck.

Deathstars have a problem in this edition if they get stuck in.

wuestenfux wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:Well, today I, while I was testing the paladins vs DE (very effective, btw), looking the character page in the rulebook... they can asign wounds to targets if they hit with a 6... 4 psycannons doing that, did the rest of the job. I will add coteaz to that unit, as well, to give them divination powers.

Last fights, vs Wolves and DE, I found paladin deathstar very effective.

Tomorrow I'll try them vs orks.

Well, if the Paladins are tied up by a large Ork mob, they will get stuck.

Deathstars have a problem in this edition if they get stuck in.

I killed 5 meganobs and his war master just with the halberds but it was a very lucky roll for me, he got 6 1's. He won 4 to 2, he has his base, I didn't. I made first blood and killed the warmaster, but got the paladins very far from my base, so while I was cleaning the green wave, he came with more, thus denying my base from my paladins.

I will change interceptors with purifiers, they're good, but I think that with the changes to charge and overwatch, purifiers are overall better.

Should have a big 2v2 game on Saturday; me as GK, Tau, Nids, and Eldar; no idea if anyone is going to field any allies or anything.

Won't really know what I'm bringing till we decide teams, but I'll let you guys know how I do regardless. The core of my list will likely be a totally tooled out 10 man group of paladins, Draigo, and Coteaz though; going to try and push to do the Relic game-type

Once my deathstar gets ahold of that, it'll probably be the end of the game.

Grey Templar wrote:No, Deep Striking counts as moving at Cruising Speed now IIRC. So a Flyer can Deep Strike, say it was Zooming, and be able to fire 4 weapons.

Does that overcome the summoning rules which specifcally say it counts as flat out?

sudojoe wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:No, Deep Striking counts as moving at Cruising Speed now IIRC. So a Flyer can Deep Strike, say it was Zooming, and be able to fire 4 weapons.

Does that overcome the summoning rules which specifcally say it counts as flat out?

no, summoning>deepstrike as codex>rulebook.

Thanks for that list sudojo. One of the people who reintroduced me to 40k taught me that there were really no "better" armour or unit-types in the game, just different categories, and you need to bring the tools in a TAC list to handle all of them. eg. terminator -> plasma; AV13-14 -> vindicare; hordes -> templates.

Can you still get a master-craft reroll after you get a reroll from the Primaris power on Divination?

I don't know if its worth it to keep the Master-craft even if you do get the benefit, but Coteaz with Divination powers attached to a deathstar will make it significantly more kill-y I think.

Psycannons and all Psybolt Stormbolters, all melee attacks (including the additional one from the banner) get to be rerolled if you miss? yes please.

No, you can't reroll a reroll. Just like in 5th.

Grey Templar wrote:No, you can't reroll a reroll. Just like in 5th.

That's cool, makes Coteaz a bit cheaper since I can un-mastercraft the 4 psycannons. Obviously only something I would take when I'm not fighting Eldar.

If you're not using Coteaz it's probably always worth taking mastercrafted psycannons imho. For each psycannon you're rolling To Hit 4 times. With a BS of 4 you will miss at least once per psycannon. So in a unit with 4 psycannons you will get 4 mastercrafted rerolls To Hit. 4 rerolls == 4 rolls == the same as another psycannon. 4 mastercrafts = 20 pts; the same as a psycannon. Effectively therefore, by paying for a unit's 4 psycannons to be mastercrafted you are buying that unit a 5th psycannon.

Sethorly wrote:If you're not using Coteaz it's probably always worth taking mastercrafted psycannons imho. For each psycannon you're rolling To Hit 4 times. With a BS of 4 you will miss at least once per psycannon. So in a unit with 4 psycannons you will get 4 mastercrafted rerolls To Hit. 4 rerolls == 4 rolls == the same as another psycannon. 4 mastercrafts = 20 pts; the same as a psycannon. Effectively therefore, by paying for a unit's 4 psycannons to be mastercrafted you are buying that unit a 5th psycannon.

Yes, I always take MC Psycannons One game I dropped them to save a few points, big mistake.

Sethorly wrote:Thanks for that list sudojo. One of the people who reintroduced me to 40k taught me that there were really no "better" armour or unit-types in the game, just different categories, and you need to bring the tools in a TAC list to handle all of them. eg. terminator -> plasma; AV13-14 -> vindicare; hordes -> templates.

You are most welcome =)

I'm trying to bounce this list off various peoples and getting it hashed out a bit better before I put it on the front page.

Anyone finding anything wrong so far with the first page? I know it's kind of a wall'o'text atm, I'll try to fix it up a bit more later but mostly been busy hunting ideas lately. (also really slowed down now that I'm watching the Olympics lol)

Also, (off topic) but anyone notice how 2012 appears to be year of air power? Even batman is getting in on it! (just watched it last night)

I'm wondering if the Vindicare won't become more prominent because of his ability to pick out enemy psykers.

DarthDiggler wrote:I'm wondering if the Vindicare won't become more prominent because of his ability to pick out enemy psykers.

The ability is mitigated somewhat by the Look Out Sir rule, and don't forget Paladins can allocate hits from shooting as well, being characters.

sudojoe wrote:

Sethorly wrote:Thanks for that list sudojo. One of the people who reintroduced me to 40k taught me that there were really no "better" armour or unit-types in the game, just different categories, and you need to bring the tools in a TAC list to handle all of them. eg. terminator -> plasma; AV13-14 -> vindicare; hordes -> templates.

You are most welcome =)

I'm trying to bounce this list off various peoples and getting it hashed out a bit better before I put it on the front page.

Anyone finding anything wrong so far with the first page? I know it's kind of a wall'o'text atm, I'll try to fix it up a bit more later but mostly been busy hunting ideas lately. (also really slowed down now that I'm watching the Olympics lol)

Also, (off topic) but anyone notice how 2012 appears to be year of air power? Even batman is getting in on it! (just watched it last night)

Henchmen fill the TAC role really well. A Psyker-based squad gives you Strength 10 AP 1 Large Blast template. Two of those with extended range from Jokaero in my game yesterday raped a footslogging Deathwing army. Plasma servitors do a pretty good job of that too, and Jokaero are effective at anti-tank at long and mid ranges, while giving some support close-in with flamers. Acolytes with bolters are 5 points each for +1 wound for your squad, and with a Jokaero have the chance to become 36" Rending bolters. I've glanced a Devilfish to death before with that. Stick these squads in Bolstered Ruins by a techmarine and you have 3++ cover for errr'one!

hrm... don't know if you can use the extended range on psy powers... still potent at 36' but I'm pretty sure you can't boost their range. I'm also really enjoying my henchmens too

Trying to find a balance between them vs purifiers vs strike squads. not sure of the ideal distribution.

I really have enjoyed having some counter attack options with some puririfers combat squadded with some 4 psycannons in a different squad or just a pure CC purifier squad and really enjoyed the warp quake and 3+ armor. arrrg so hard to decide.

DarthDiggler wrote:I'm wondering if the Vindicare won't become more prominent because of his ability to pick out enemy psykers.

I'll be taking him all the time as the ultimate counter to take out the new buildings, as well as the usual normal AV14.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Enigwolf wrote:A Psyker-based squad gives you Strength 10 AP 1 Large Blast template. Two of those with extended range from Jokaero in my game yesterday raped a footslogging Deathwing army.

Yes yes yes! As someone who has always used Psyker henchmen I am so pleased to see more and more people use them. They are very good for their points. I have written a post earlier in the thread on their use (imho).

Just ran the math for Force weapon activation vs hammer hand vs different toughnesses and FNP. Quite useful now instead of hammer hand.
See first page terminator troop section for math

Bottom line, T5 FnP - it's a wash, use either

T4 and T3 with FnP - force activation actually seems to kill more than hammer hand

Hammer hand seems to be ideal if you can get rad grenade or someone else to cast it so you can still activate force weapons or if target does not have FnP.

Also threw some math up for paladins and FnP. not sure if I did it right for FnP vs small arms that's not plasma. If someone can check it, be much appreciated.

Well, I was in the toilet re-reading the codex, when I read the Reinforced Aegis that all dreadnoughts have.

Up to 12", the aegis of an objective of a magic power, gives -4 to the leadership test of the caster, not just -1.

A dreadnought is a must, just to give this.

DakotaBlue wrote:Well, I was in the toilet re-reading the codex, when I read the Reinforced Aegis that all dreadnoughts have.

Up to 12", the aegis of an objective of a magic power, gives -4 to the leadership test of the caster, not just -1.

A dreadnought is a must, just to give this.

Part of why summoning a CC dread to the front with the libby was so fun, made nearby enemy psyker powers nearly impossible.

doc1234 wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:Well, I was in the toilet re-reading the codex, when I read the Reinforced Aegis that all dreadnoughts have.

Up to 12", the aegis of an objective of a magic power, gives -4 to the leadership test of the caster, not just -1.

A dreadnought is a must, just to give this.

Part of why summoning a CC dread to the front with the libby was so fun, made nearby enemy psyker powers nearly impossible.

Hmm, a nought with TL Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, and fist... with pyropsi ammo... seems good.

DakotaBlue wrote:

doc1234 wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:Well, I was in the toilet re-reading the codex, when I read the Reinforced Aegis that all dreadnoughts have.

Up to 12", the aegis of an objective of a magic power, gives -4 to the leadership test of the caster, not just -1.

A dreadnought is a must, just to give this.

Part of why summoning a CC dread to the front with the libby was so fun, made nearby enemy psyker powers nearly impossible.

Hmm, a nought with TL Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, and fist... with pyropsi ammo... seems good.

yeah... but you better stick the dread behind the libby unit bc w/ dreads having only 2 HP, they wreck easy, .....and now more than ever, you always have to stick psyriflemen in cover for the cover save....

hawkology wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:

doc1234 wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:Well, I was in the toilet re-reading the codex, when I read the Reinforced Aegis that all dreadnoughts have.

Up to 12", the aegis of an objective of a magic power, gives -4 to the leadership test of the caster, not just -1.

A dreadnought is a must, just to give this.

Part of why summoning a CC dread to the front with the libby was so fun, made nearby enemy psyker powers nearly impossible.

Hmm, a nought with TL Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, and fist... with pyropsi ammo... seems good.

yeah... but you better stick the dread behind the libby unit bc w/ dreads having only 2 HP, they wreck easy, .....and now more than ever, you always have to stick psyriflemen in cover for the cover save....

Dreadnoughts have 3 Hull Points.

Only things like Speeders and Venoms have 2 HPs.

The deployment rules for Stormraven, though not FAQ'd, we are using it at our local gaming stores.

If the stormraven have a beacon, you will deploy this dreadnought wherever you want, but in turn 3.

I mean, you deploy the raven in turn 2 (with luck and the +1 from the grandmaster), you have it in the face of an enemy unit controlling a point, shoot all your stuff. Next turn, you move the raven and deploy the dread in the face of the unit you shooted with the raven. Then, you make rain fire over them with the 2 heavy flames. It can easily kill an entire unit in cover of longfangs taking a point for example, with this 2 rounds of shooting.

I'm gonna use it in my next game.

I'd say that flame naught is a pretty fun idea. It'd be kind of useful to get that guy close to down eldar farseers usually hiding behind all sorts of cover.

On that topic, since switching to a more psychic power build, I've had more success vs necrons, orks, and even tau lately but now I am finding nids to be kind of a pain as well as SW and really struggling against eldar with some good allies.

Nids and SW I can usually handle but hide the farseerer way in the corner is really making me want to find some room for either an interceptor unit, or even an assasin like culuxus but probably be more like the callidus.

Anyone have anything else they found works well vs those hidden farseers?

The dual flamedread will be a nice middle finger at the increasing number of aegis defencelines too

doc1234 wrote:The dual flamedread will be a nice middle finger at the increasing number of aegis defencelines too

Technically you know that the dread can actually take over the quad gun if he manages to kill all of the other enemy there.

The gun emplacement says just model in base contact. Does not limit you to infantry or vehicles or anything. Technically even a tank can do it. It's a wierd quark of the rules.

Even if your enemy bought it, it counts as neutral battlefield terrain, anyone can use it.


*mental image of flaming things off the gun and then dread tries to shoot it with his big DCCW lolol*

Well in my game the other day my 10 man Draigostar tanked about an entire army's worth of Tyranid fire and lost 1 guy, had wounds on 2 others, and Draigo had 2 left.

Their shooting literally melted everything they looked at, and that wasn't even with Coteaz; since I was fighting an Eldar.

Stormraven dramatically underperformed, not really a fan of moving 18" minimum, have a very hard time bringing guns to bear on what I want; think I would have rather brought a Landraider or a couple DKs, especially against those Nid hordes.

We ended up losing 'Relic' on turn 5 (me and my Tau friend), because the game ended, if we had of kept playing I am confident we would have run down the rangers that had been fleeing with the Relic for the entire game since they infiltrated next to it and picked it up on turn 1.

Dreadnoughts blow up really easily now at least they are as deadly as ever from range.

Kaldor wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:I'm wondering if the Vindicare won't become more prominent because of his ability to pick out enemy psykers.

The ability is mitigated somewhat by the Look Out Sir rule, and don't forget Paladins can allocate hits from shooting as well, being characters.

Can you still shatter the targeted Pyskers/Model wargear with Shieldbreaker rounds before they can LOS! the wound? The rules basically say destroy the wargear then make any saves, if any still apply. It would be an odd iteraction. "Oh, poop. This bullet destroyed my armor, but wait i'll still have the cannon fodder boyz model take the hit. It's important to know what order these events take place.

If you do LoS before placing the wound, it goes to the miniature that did the LoS. If you do it after, the ++ goes off of the miniature who ate the wound.

DakotaBlue wrote:If you do LoS before placing the wound, it goes to the miniature that did the LoS. If you do it after, the ++ goes off of the miniature who ate the wound.

I don't know if I'm following you correctly. The wound can't be LOS! until its assigned. If a wound is assigned to a model, they lose a piece of wargear.

So, if I shieldbreaker ammo on a farseer for instance, I hit and wound. The wound is allocated and they lose a piece of wargear and then they can LOS! the wound away.

or

Shieldbreaker ammo on a farseer, I hit and wound. The wound is allocated and they LOS!, the wound goes on someone else and they lose a piece of wargear.

?? I don't have the codex with me atm, but the wording of the ammo vs. LOS! rules need to be checked.

LOS reallocates a wound, meaning it had to have been allocated in the first place, so regardless of when he uses LOS, that initial model loses his wargear.

That being said, I don't see this as reason enough to take a Vindicare anymore, as his two main roles, big vehicles and characters, have been changed to a point where he is no good at it anymore.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:LOS reallocates a wound, meaning it had to have been allocated in the first place, so regardless of when he uses LOS, that initial model loses his wargear.

That being said, I don't see this as reason enough to take a Vindicare anymore, as his two main roles, big vehicles and characters, have been changed to a point where he is no good at it anymore.

What?

He's still the go-to guy when s*** needs to die, now! Not to mention he can still pick out special and heavy weapons.

The only thing that happened is some vehicles are easier to kill. But you can't one shot vehicles as easy now, something he still does amazingly.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:LOS reallocates a wound, meaning it had to have been allocated in the first place, so regardless of when he uses LOS, that initial model loses his wargear.

That being said, I don't see this as reason enough to take a Vindicare anymore, as his two main roles, big vehicles and characters, have been changed to a point where he is no good at it anymore.

It's not just wargear destruction actully as it only destroys invul saves. I'd love to destroy the ghost helm for one if it'd worked. He may be less good at say sniping blood angel priests or librarians, he is still good at anti-armor. Also if he used a krackstorm, he can allocate as well and force alot of people to Look out sirs (if it hits)

Frankly the biggest problems I'm having and still having - is necrons and their fliersand the eldar farseer messing up my lovely psychic powers. Also really need to work a counter attack option into the list. Currently using alot of shooty henchmen and a squad of ss as the cornersotne along with the traditional AC dreads and a storm raven fast attack just as a gunship and having a good time with it.

Really need some form of counter attack when the mass of gaunts/gargoyles/wraiths/ or some nice flying monster creature hit me. I'm thinking of either a squad of 5 paladins, vs maybe 10 purifiers? Or maybe go DCA? Some of those flygants with iron arm is damn sturdy Trying to shoot down zoans is also a pain (especially with psyker shooting lol - damn shadow in the warp)

what do you guys think of good counters to them? Especially at hunting runes of warding farseerers?

Also gonna start to rewrite the purifiers and paladins sections on the front page. Gonna try to add in some stuff about common loadouts as people tend to ask about it. If you guys have ideas, please post them and I'll add it to the growing body on the fist page.

What are peoples' thoughts on Purifier loadouts? What heavy weapons are we liking? I'm thinking of either all Incinerators for a highly foot slogging squad (and they are free!) or 2 Incinerators and 2 Psycannons (for some long range shooting while they leg it up to mid field).

What CC weapons do folks like? Personally I think a stave is necessary in order to tank big scary characters; maybe a hammer or 2 as well.

Thoughts?

OIF Knight wrote:What are peoples' thoughts on Purifier loadouts? What heavy weapons are we liking? I'm thinking of either all Incinerators for a highly foot slogging squad (and they are free!) or 2 Incinerators and 2 Psycannons (for some long range shooting while they leg it up to mid field).

What CC weapons do folks like? Personally I think a stave is necessary in order to tank big scary characters; maybe a hammer or 2 as well.

Thoughts?

Pretty sure this has been explained and gone over, unless your going for a full assault squad, youl want at least 1-2 psycannons for every 5 guys, at 10 you can get away with just 2. Hammers at 1 for every 5 guys, halberds all round, and a staved justicar for challanges

Pretty sure this has been explained and gone over, unless your going for a full assault squad, youl want at least 1-2 psycannons for every 5 guys, at 10 you can get away with just 2. Hammers at 1 for every 5 guys, halberds all round, and a staved justicar for challanges

Thanks for the advice, appreciate it!

Even a full assault squad, Incinerators are redundant when you have Cleansing Flame.

The loadout hasn't changed is the basic answer. 1 hammer, 2-4 psycannons, and the rest with Halberds.

I'd ignore the Stave at all costs. Just so pricey on an already pricey unit. Always MAX out Psycannons though, they are simply the best weapon platform in the entire game. Nothing else in the game does so well against EVERYTHING (AP2 on rends, ability to pen AV14, good against MCs/Hordes/TEQ/MEQ). I like taking a few incinerators on a Purgation squad. 2x Incinerators will simply eat up Xenos armies, plus they are free so you don't feel too bad about them dying.

Anyway, I have been messing around with new GK builds for 6th (NOVA especially) and have personally come to the conclusion that SWs make excellent allies. Strike Squads seem really bland to me (too few attacks, Warp Quake isn't that useful) and they are still 20 Pts a pop. GH's allow me to fill out my troops with some cheap models that are still well-rounded. The cost efficiency of the GH has allowed me to up my Marine count to 60 in a 2k list, this also includes 8 rhino hulls and a Aegis with Quadgun.

What allies have others found success with?

Grey Templar wrote:What?

He's still the go-to guy when s*** needs to die, now! Not to mention he can still pick out special and heavy weapons.

The only thing that happened is some vehicles are easier to kill. But you can't one shot vehicles as easy now, something he still does amazingly.

And by vehicles being easier to kill something else happened; people stopped taking so many of them. They are no longer a counter you need him for. Most importantly, cover was reduced, so unless he can get a ruin he is going to get flattened quick. Picking out special weapons and all that is great, but with the way wound allocation works now there are several ways of doing that.

Quite simply, it's not worth paying 145pts for a model that will take out a 40pts Rhino or a special weapon, and then die. The army already suffers now from expensive model syndrome without adding an unnecessary addition IMO.

sudojoe wrote:It's not just wargear destruction actully as it only destroys invul saves.

I'm well aware; I was speaking in short-hand refering to the particular wargear being spoken about in the post I quoted; perhaps confusing though, I apologise.

so since pallies are just so good at surviving, i have been loading them

4x falchions w/psycannos
2x halberds wstormbolters
2x hammers w/stormbolters
sword w/stormbolter
banner w/narthcium

i've been combat squading them and making the draigostar (obvious w/ draigo) the 4xfalchions and apothecary banner bearer... and if i have enough pts i try to get a libby in w/ that deathstar and deploy them dead smack in the middle of the battle and march forward..... i have been having good success so far... especially if i get the libby psychic support like prescience, forbodding, forewarning, and misfortune.... so far, i've had no problems w/ assault termies, bc i just seem to unload some many wounds that they fail 2-3, and (by some unlucky rolling sometimes) 4 saves... against DE, sure they attack first, but the incubi power weapon debuff and my FnP and LoS allocation makes my deathstar more survivable.... and then when its my turn, their cleaned out... same goes for harlies too... so...

I wanted to know if anyone else have been trying this....

or am i've been getting lucky w/ my little deathstar unit....??? oh yeah, if points allowing, i MC my falchions and psycanons just to make sure they mow down everything coming at them....

Seems about right to me; the 4 Falchion dudes are putting out 20 attacks on the charge, then there's Draigo however many and the Apothecary. Should be about 2-3 dead with a Hammerhand or two. Problem is then he swings back in and kills a Paladin or two with Thunder Hammers, and either stays, or runs but you can't catch him over wearing TDA.

Still a potent unit, scary as hell, but a lot of points.

I'd throw a stave in any Paladinstar. It's incredibly useful for challenging enemy fists and tying up ICs.

hrm... The allocated/and re-allocated makes me wonder about the vindicare.

the armor breaks once you allocate a wound to a model

The wound then gets re-allocated. Doesn't that imply that the first part of the rule was fullfilled in that it was allocated at one point or another to the unit?

Re-allocating it moves it, but wouldn't change that it was allocated to something in the first place.

I'm currently experimenting with staffs on non-techmarine and non-librarians atm. I know some people like JY2 swears by at least 1-2 staffs in his MSU purifiers so probably some solid ground for debate there. However if you already have it on an attached liby or techmarine for example, may not be applicable anymore. I have yet to find the points to field falchions, will have to proxy that in one of these days to see how it goes

Anyways, just found out I messed up the POTMS thing on the front plage and I'll go fix it. Apparently the blood angel's codex says the storm raven can still shoot even if it flat-out in contradiction to the rule book. Land raiders however are still stuck not shooting if they moved flat out apparently. The GK codex however, doesn't say this but I think most can agree to the above but what do you all think?

If it re-allocates, it's not allocated the first miniature, so, you don't do anything to the first. As least, not being TFG and a rule screwer, this is how I see it.

DakotaBlue wrote:If it re-allocates, it's not allocated the first miniature, so, you don't do anything to the first. As least, not being TFG and a rule screwer, this is how I see it.

ya, you're probably right, wishful thinking anyway

Something cannot be re-allocated unless it was allocated in the first place; you got it right the first time sudojoe.

So, for allocated wounds, like the precision shot ones, you only can re-allocate it after trying to save it with the allocated one, and making LoS after?

It would make sense rule-wise, but not reality-wise. I mean, "Look out, sir! the shot got into your heart, I'll get it into mine instead!"

I used a draigowing last night in a 1500 point game, I think its still very viable. Crusade and The Scouring being the only missions that pose more stress on the build. We played crusade last night and I combat squaded a strike squad, but didn't combat squad the paladins and it almost cost me the game if it wasn't for extra turns giving me the time to blast a squad off an objective. I used Coteaz in the squad had Divine Primaris power, and Misfortune... my opponent rage faced the whole game.

hrm.. I took the vindicare shield breaker question to YMDC and we're not really comming up with anything that looks like a consensus. Maybe just roll off against eachother?

either break what you shot at first, or alternate is it breaks both, or alternatively just whoever got LOS'ed to. Really needs a FAQ as there does not appear to be a way to really resolve it.

See discussion here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/466897.page

If works as prior, *meaning you break who you want then LoS the wound* could be a good counter for the vect fortune bomb, but still a bit lacking vs fateweaver terminators and definately won't be challenging tally nurgles and of course no use vs flier spam

So, is fighting Eldar really just totally muzzling your capability to cast any psychic powers?

Do you guys think they are ever going to put a range on Runes of Warding?

Quick question...

I'm running a GK list, but atm I have only got 10 Paladins and Draigo for Troops choices.

Should I go for more Paladins or should I include something else like GKT or include Crowe and go for Purifiers in the troops slots?

I don't want to run all Paladins as I don't think it's going to be as effective as a hybrid list.

Any comments would be helpful.

Thanks.

daedalus-templarius wrote:So, is fighting Eldar really just totally muzzling your capability to cast any psychic powers?

Do you guys think they are ever going to put a range on Runes of Warding?

Its really annoying for sure.

They will nerf it eventually. Probably either give it a 24" range or only make it effect enemy psychic powers that target a friendly Eldar unit. The warding in the name implies it just protects you, not screw the enemy over.

Puscifer wrote:Quick question...

I'm running a GK list, but atm I have only got 10 Paladins and Draigo for Troops choices.

Should I go for more Paladins or should I include something else like GKT or include Crowe and go for Purifiers in the troops slots?

I don't want to run all Paladins as I don't think it's going to be as effective as a hybrid list.

Any comments would be helpful.

Thanks.

The best support is Coteaz and inquisitorial weakling units, possibly in Razorbacks or Chimeras, possibly with Aegis line. Purifiers can be done but Crowe is kind of expensive for only one or two units so doesn't really go well with paladins I find.

Personally i run just paladins as troops okay at 1500 and pretty well at 2000. But to my mind Coteaz is the best support character now anyway and weakling squads allow you quite a lot of scoring units (I don't use them as I despise them, but functionally they're great).

Grey Templar wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So, is fighting Eldar really just totally muzzling your capability to cast any psychic powers?

Do you guys think they are ever going to put a range on Runes of Warding?

Its really annoying for sure.

They will nerf it eventually. Probably either give it a 24" range or only make it effect enemy psychic powers that target a friendly Eldar unit. The warding in the name implies it just protects you, not screw the enemy over.

I certainly hope so.

Its much more powerful now that you don't get saves of any sort vs perils. Kinda kills the whole aspect of all those new fancy psyker powers if you play against an Eldar often.


Going to try and take 2 DKs next time, I'm hoping with more target saturation they won't get blown up so fast. How do you all generally deploy them? From reserves or just on the table? Also, since you can still attack with your 'fists' with a sword equipped, how many attacks does the DK get? Sword is a bit overpriced, but being able to reroll ALL of your hits and wounds at S10 seems pretty significant.

A DK with Sword gets 4 base attacks and 5 on the charge(3 base +1 for 2 CCWs +1 for charging)

I just deploy them on the table. They can get cover much easier now and their 2+ save is much better.

I use them to assassinate enemy units. Challange any PFs or Axes away to nothingness and eat the squad.


They are also excellent as Scoring units. Use a GM for this, or if playing Big Guns Never Tire, and they can be really good at taking enemy objectives.

Grey Templar wrote:A DK with Sword gets 4 base attacks and 5 on the charge(3 base +1 for 2 CCWs +1 for charging)

I just deploy them on the table. They can get cover much easier now and their 2+ save is much better.

I use them to assassinate enemy units. Challange any PFs or Axes away to nothingness and eat the squad.


They are also excellent as Scoring units. Use a GM for this, or if playing Big Guns Never Tire, and they can be really good at taking enemy objectives.

Good to hear all of that, but why do they get cover much easier now exactly?

I think i was actually looking in the rules for monstrous creature cover saves the other day and couldn't find anything specifically. Do they use the same rules as vehicles or something?

A DK with just fists still gets 4 attacks normally, doesn't he?

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:A DK with Sword gets 4 base attacks and 5 on the charge(3 base +1 for 2 CCWs +1 for charging)

I just deploy them on the table. They can get cover much easier now and their 2+ save is much better.

I use them to assassinate enemy units. Challange any PFs or Axes away to nothingness and eat the squad.


They are also excellent as Scoring units. Use a GM for this, or if playing Big Guns Never Tire, and they can be really good at taking enemy objectives.

Good to hear all of that, but why do they get cover much easier now exactly?

I think i was actually looking in the rules for monstrous creature cover saves the other day and couldn't find anything specifically. Do they use the same rules as vehicles or something?

A DK with just fists still gets 4 attacks normally, doesn't he?

They get cover just like any other model. 25% obscurity is all thats needed. The restriction they had last edition was removed(they could only get cover from being 50% obscured or something)

And yeah, with Fists you still get 4 attacks normally.

Would Solodins work as objective grabbers?

Puscifer wrote:Would Solodins work as objective grabbers?

They can do. I use one or two depending on my list.

Grey Templar wrote:

They get cover just like any other model. 25% obscurity is all thats needed. The restriction they had last edition was removed(they could only get cover from being 50% obscured or something)

And yeah, with Fists you still get 4 attacks normally.

Awesome! I really enjoy using them, I just need to get better at using them I think. I always tend to throw them in suicide missions, and maybe I need to treat them a bit better.

For my game on Saturday, I think I will have...
Draigo
10 Paladin-star, fully kitted
2 Paladins for objective grab and hold
Psyrifle dread
2x Dreadknights with teleporter and incinerator

I'll be fighting an eldar, otherwise I'd drop one of the paladins from the 2 man squad, un-mastercraft the Psycannons, and take Coteaz.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

They get cover just like any other model. 25% obscurity is all thats needed. The restriction they had last edition was removed(they could only get cover from being 50% obscured or something)

And yeah, with Fists you still get 4 attacks normally.

Awesome! I really enjoy using them, I just need to get better at using them I think. I always tend to throw them in suicide missions, and maybe I need to treat them a bit better.

For my game on Saturday, I think I will have...
Draigo
10 Paladin-star, fully kitted
2 Paladins for objective grab and hold
Psyrifle dread
2x Dreadknights with teleporter and incinerator

I'll be fighting an eldar, otherwise I'd drop one of the paladins from the 2 man squad, un-mastercraft the Psycannons, and take Coteaz.

I like that list.

1.5k or 2k?

Puscifer wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

They get cover just like any other model. 25% obscurity is all thats needed. The restriction they had last edition was removed(they could only get cover from being 50% obscured or something)

And yeah, with Fists you still get 4 attacks normally.

Awesome! I really enjoy using them, I just need to get better at using them I think. I always tend to throw them in suicide missions, and maybe I need to treat them a bit better.

For my game on Saturday, I think I will have...
Draigo
10 Paladin-star, fully kitted
2 Paladins for objective grab and hold
Psyrifle dread
2x Dreadknights with teleporter and incinerator

I'll be fighting an eldar, otherwise I'd drop one of the paladins from the 2 man squad, un-mastercraft the Psycannons, and take Coteaz.

I like that list.

1.5k or 2k?

Right at 1650

Removing a paladin, master-crafts and adding Coteaz would put it pretty close(still to 1650), but would maybe have to shuffle a few more things. Remove banner, etc, something like that.

Or just tell my friends to add a few more points

Yeah, thats an odd point level.

1500, 1750, 1850, 2k, 2500. Those are fairly normal point values.

1850s only on there because its common in Europe and has spread for some unknown reason. Otherwise, it would be nice clean incriments of 250 or 500.

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, thats an odd point level.

1500, 1750, 1850, 2k, 2500. Those are fairly normal point values.

1850s only on there because its common in Europe and has spread for some unknown reason. Otherwise, it would be nice clean incriments of 250 or 500.

Country folk with country ways

I;m trying to bulk out my GK army while I build my Iron Hands.

Just needing advice on Paladin Armies.

I agree, I'd rather do 1750 or 1850, but the guys I usually play with (well, a couple of them) have a hard time coming up with those point levels. I have no problem, haha. Also, lower point levels usually mean more games, although they rarely want to play more than 1

1750 would be super easy, just add Coteaz, un-mastercraft psycannons, then you'd have points to put a sword on one of the DKs or something.

Grey Templar wrote:What?

He's still the go-to guy when s*** needs to die, now! Not to mention he can still pick out special and heavy weapons.

The only thing that happened is some vehicles are easier to kill. But you can't one shot vehicles as easy now, something he still does amazingly.

Completely agree. He is still needed to reliably take out AV14 and in particular all the new buildings (getting that "7" on the damage chart is lovely!), not to mention the importance of Dead Shot in taking out 6ed unit keystone models. In addition I hear the cheese to beat, if we set aside the flier cheese, is Vect and harlies with a fortune-ing farseer (2++ rerollable save), which arguably the Vindicare's Shield-Breaker has a chance of destroying (though LoS may still apply).

So are the basic GKT any good for troops choices when used in conjunction with Paladins?

Puscifer wrote:So are the basic GKT any good for troops choices when used in conjunction with Paladins?

I think they're okay, though I do think henchmen are probably the better competitive option to support Paladins for a number of reasons (mainly to do with cheaper cost and the possibility of a 3 plasma cannon squad).

But a 10 man strike squad with 2 psycannon, psybolts and possibly a razorback (various upgrades can work well depending on how you feel and available points) to give some mobility to a combat squad isn't a bad option if it can be squeezed in.

I've come around on the Psybolter razorbacks lately, 3 twinlinked str 6 shots can do work, and there is usually something worth shooting. I'm very curious about dreadknights though, I face vindicators often my buddy and I face each other very often probably 3 or 4 times a week. How well do you all think they preform to move 12" or 30" and heavy incinerate the side/back armor of vindi's or flaming a long fangs pack. I feel when I face the vindi's I can't move my army forward without getting pie plated, so paladins because a useless force option to me. Losing 6 or so TEQs also turn me into a sad panda.

Only one thing I would use against Vindicators...

Long Range Firepower.

They are the bane of our entire army and should be the No 1 Priority target.

Vindicare, Stormraven and Psyflemen Dreads are good here.

For purifier spam players I had a thought last night. I know we all kinda sigh at taking Crowe and trying to figure out what to do with him so, what if you take a Aegis Defense Line and have him man the guns?

Dreadnoughts are okay but can't really be relied upon vs Vindicators. The Vindicare and Stormravens are excellent, however, and it should be possible to keep your paladins out of range/sight until turn two when the ravens should be in via Psychic Communion.

But I agree, Vindicators, especially Fast Vindicators need taken out quickly.

l0k1 wrote:For purifier spam players I had a thought last night. I know we all kinda sigh at taking Crowe and trying to figure out what to do with him so, what if you take a Aegis Defense Line and have him man the guns?

I was writing my list for next week and was looking at this as well. My first thought was a soloadin on a gun, but Crowe works as well. Only concern is that he is somewhat exposed. I usually have him in a razorback currently.

Yeah that has usually been my tactic. Flank side armor with dreads, storm raven T2 comes in and handles one. I have hunker down and wait until I can move. I just rage when I can't get at least 1 killed T1. He usually plays 2, sometimes 3 with allies... I was just thinking of using knights to shunt up and demolish one ASAP.

Melchiour wrote:

l0k1 wrote:For purifier spam players I had a thought last night. I know we all kinda sigh at taking Crowe and trying to figure out what to do with him so, what if you take a Aegis Defense Line and have him man the guns?

I was writing my list for next week and was looking at this as well. My first thought was a soloadin on a gun, but Crowe works as well. Only concern is that he is somewhat exposed. I usually have him in a razorback currently.

That is a concern, but with objective placements you should be able to put an objective within 24 inches of him then have the unit camping that objective shoot anything that tries to mess with him also put your Psyriflemen Dreads behind the defense line with him. Also Crowe has a 2+/+4 where a Paladin is 2+/5+ unless you give him a sword or staff and they both have 2 wounds and if something assaults him you can just keep rerolling your saves to tar pit them. It's a thought and tactically speaking its not without flaws but it seems more useful than having him hump the rear end of a rhino all day or having him cowering inside a Razorback.

l0k1 wrote:

Melchiour wrote:

l0k1 wrote:For purifier spam players I had a thought last night. I know we all kinda sigh at taking Crowe and trying to figure out what to do with him so, what if you take a Aegis Defense Line and have him man the guns?

I was writing my list for next week and was looking at this as well. My first thought was a soloadin on a gun, but Crowe works as well. Only concern is that he is somewhat exposed. I usually have him in a razorback currently.

That is a concern, but with objective placements you should be able to put an objective within 24 inches of him then have the unit camping that objective shoot anything that tries to mess with him also put your Psyriflemen Dreads behind the defense line with him. Also Crowe has a 2+/+4 where a Paladin is 2+/5+ unless you give him a sword or staff and they both have 2 wounds and if something assaults him you can just keep rerolling your saves to tar pit them. It's a thought and tactically speaking its not without flaws but it seems more useful than having him hump the rear end of a rhino all day or having him cowering inside a Razorback.

He is just one model. He will have cover from the aegis line and/or gun itself.

And hey, its not like we Purifier players have ever expected him to live very long.

Tbh, that is the greatest use for Crowe.

Form up a firebase with Crowe on the turret, a Psyfleman or two and possibly some infantry.

On the note of Henchmen, are they really worth it? They seem lackluster to me as they need a transport.

Not only that, I don't much care for them as the models are Hella expensive.

Coteaz, 3 servitors with plasma cannon and half a dozen or so weaklings for ablative wounds costs little more than Crowe (25 points or so) and scores to boot, as well as packing pretty hefty S7 AP2 firepower (and if Coteaz has prescience, that's even better). Add to that that you can buy a couple of cheap-ish sqads and some chimeras or razorbacks for mid or long range firepower, and they're a good option for backing a 10 man paladin unit.

Personally I don't use them but to my mind they're easily the best support option for paladins.

Ive only played three games with GK (Purifiers). I have 50 guys with 20 Psycannons. 3 Lazerbacks a Vindicare and Crowe.

IG continue to whoop me. No other army but that one. Seems no matter what I do, I can't beat 'em. Gah! I've gotten close but the battle of attrition is just not one I can easily win. The colossus is just stupid awesome.

Seriously thinking that I need a Grandmaster for the added mobility he brings. He's just so many points though, just to be able to scout/outflank a unit... But yet so enticing...

Grey Templar wrote:

l0k1 wrote:

Melchiour wrote:

l0k1 wrote:For purifier spam players I had a thought last night. I know we all kinda sigh at taking Crowe and trying to figure out what to do with him so, what if you take a Aegis Defense Line and have him man the guns?

I was writing my list for next week and was looking at this as well. My first thought was a soloadin on a gun, but Crowe works as well. Only concern is that he is somewhat exposed. I usually have him in a razorback currently.

That is a concern, but with objective placements you should be able to put an objective within 24 inches of him then have the unit camping that objective shoot anything that tries to mess with him also put your Psyriflemen Dreads behind the defense line with him. Also Crowe has a 2+/+4 where a Paladin is 2+/5+ unless you give him a sword or staff and they both have 2 wounds and if something assaults him you can just keep rerolling your saves to tar pit them. It's a thought and tactically speaking its not without flaws but it seems more useful than having him hump the rear end of a rhino all day or having him cowering inside a Razorback.

He is just one model. He will have cover from the aegis line and/or gun itself.

And hey, its not like we Purifier players have ever expected him to live very long.

Correct, but he is also worth a victory point so worth giving him protection.

I would refrain from surrounding him with dreads simply because it would be a large target for templates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Puscifer wrote:Tbh, that is the greatest use for Crowe.

Form up a firebase with Crowe on the turret, a Psyfleman or two and possibly some infantry.

On the note of Henchmen, are they really worth it? They seem lackluster to me as they need a transport.

Not only that, I don't much care for them as the models are Hella expensive.

Henchmen are pretty nice, haven't used them yet, but they are dirt cheap, can take weapons that the rest of the army can't, and with coteaz they can score. Stick 3 plasma gun Henchmen in a chimera with some bolter guys and you can camp the objective, fire up to 5 weapons out of the hatches and keep moving. The other nice thing is you can basically customize them to take on whatever you want.

The actual models are expensive, most people just used guardsmen with the proper weapons. It's much cheaper and just as effective.

What are we equipping our Justicars with? I have been giving my strike squad justies the halberd. BUT I feel like it might be a waste of points if we go up against CC units. Like my last game:

strike squad of 5 with Justie & halberd. Charged by Howling Banshee squad with the howling banshee phoenix lord. I challenged the Phoenix Lord so she wouldn't kill my whole squad, only my Justicar and she ate him alive. The winner of the day was a lowly marine who caused a wound to the Phoenix Lord (after failing an invuln save) and got his force weapon off to ID the crazy lady.

So I guess, are the 10 point for the hammer, or 5 points worth it on our normal squads?

Hey guys,

new to the forum but not new to GKs. I have been playing them since they sucked (cough daemon hunters cough).

Here are some of my thoughts and what I have had great success with in my very competitive area.

Coteaz is always worth it. I have been including him in every single game I play since he has a DH, the ability to take 2 divination spells, still retains hammer hand, can shoot at everything that deepstrikes near him, re-rolls the initiative, and makes henchmen scoring. Honestly I don't see why every list doesn't include him.

If you are running a Draigo wing style list then a banner is a must in this psychic environment with Eldar and Tyranids. Warding staves are also now a must in this unit to tank chalenges. Paladins should always have a divination character with them. It makes them an absolutely monster unit.

Every 10 man terminator/paladin unit needs to have 2-3 hammers, a stave, and a banner. Everything else is your choice and of course the obligatory psycannons.

Due to always taking Coteaz, I have been bringing a 6man psyker unit with 3 stormbolter henchman in a rhino. They either are amazing or all their heads explode but they are often overlooked. They are so cheap and a scoring unit to boot and if the psykers die, everyone forgets about the 3 scoring storm bolter henchmen.

Dreadknights=Awesome in terminator heavy lists. They provide amazing 1st turn threat range and act as huge bullet magnets. This allows your units to cross the field taking very little fire.

Every important unit should be lead from the front by an independent character with a 2+ armor save. With a 2+ and then LOS roll of 2+, especially with paladins, it is too good not do this.

I have found storm ravens useful in shooting down other flyers and as a gun boat, but every time I have used it as a transport it has failed. Honestly, a unit of paladins or terminators with a divination character can shoot down flyers just as well. But I continue to use it only at high point cost matches.

On the vindicare debate, I have found him to be totally useless know with LOS allocation. Sure he is good at killing vehicles but he will die before earning his points back and with less vehicles present...there are better options for 145 pts.

I have also found in Draigo lists that dropping units of 2 paladins onto objectives is very cost effective. I usually equip them with sword and hammer and when needed, they still kill or tie up much more expensive units.

Well there you have it. Most of these thoughts have come from me playing my army lists mostly based around all terminators with a paladin unit backed up by dreadknights and coteaz. I have not lost in 6th yet with these lists.

furbyballer wrote:Hey guys,

new to the forum but not new to GKs. I have been playing them since they sucked (cough daemon hunters cough).

Here are some of my thoughts and what I have had great success with in my very competitive area.

Coteaz is always worth it. I have been including him in every single game I play since he has a DH, the ability to take 2 divination spells, still retains hammer hand, can shoot at everything that deepstrikes near him, re-rolls the initiative, and makes henchmen scoring. Honestly I don't see why every list doesn't include him.

If you are running a Draigo wing style list then a banner is a must in this psychic environment with Eldar and Tyranids. Warding staves are also now a must in this unit to tank chalenges. Paladins should always have a divination character with them. It makes them an absolutely monster unit.

Every 10 man terminator/paladin unit needs to have 2-3 hammers, a stave, and a banner. Everything else is your choice and of course the obligatory psycannons.

Due to always taking Coteaz, I have been bringing a 6man psyker unit with 3 stormbolter henchman in a rhino. They either are amazing or all their heads explode but they are often overlooked. They are so cheap and a scoring unit to boot and if the psykers die, everyone forgets about the 3 scoring storm bolter henchmen.

Dreadknights=Awesome in terminator heavy lists. They provide amazing 1st turn threat range and act as huge bullet magnets. This allows your units to cross the field taking very little fire.

Every important unit should be lead from the front by an independent character with a 2+ armor save. With a 2+ and then LOS roll of 2+, especially with paladins, it is too good not do this.

I have found storm ravens useful in shooting down other flyers and as a gun boat, but every time I have used it as a transport it has failed. Honestly, a unit of paladins or terminators with a divination character can shoot down flyers just as well. But I continue to use it only at high point cost matches.

On the vindicare debate, I have found him to be totally useless know with LOS allocation. Sure he is good at killing vehicles but he will die before earning his points back and with less vehicles present...there are better options for 145 pts.

I have also found in Draigo lists that dropping units of 2 paladins onto objectives is very cost effective. I usually equip them with sword and hammer and when needed, they still kill or tie up much more expensive units.

Well there you have it. Most of these thoughts have come from me playing my army lists mostly based around all terminators with a paladin unit backed up by dreadknights and coteaz. I have not lost in 6th yet with these lists.

I wouldn't take Coteaz against Eldar, but other than that, your impressions are pretty similar to how mine have been.

daedalus- I always right up all comer lists so I just have to make due when I play eldar. So far they have not been much of a problem, but it is a nuisance to not have psychic powers. However, this is why I always tell people to take banners because you don't have to fight threw runes of warding.

furbyballer wrote:daedalus- I always right up all comer lists so I just have to make due when I play eldar. So far they have not been much of a problem, but it is a nuisance to not have psychic powers. However, this is why I always tell people to take banners because you don't have to fight threw runes of warding.

Yea, that is cool. Me and my friends usually make up a list quickly after we pick teams, and when playing pickup games I usually make a quick list beforehand. However, I do have specific stuff I always take so I can make lists nice and quick.

Jancoran wrote:Ive only played three games with GK (Purifiers). I have 50 guys with 20 Psycannons. 3 Lazerbacks a Vindicare and Crowe.

IG continue to whoop me. No other army but that one. Seems no matter what I do, I can't beat 'em. Gah! I've gotten close but the battle of attrition is just not one I can easily win. The colossus is just stupid awesome.

Seriously thinking that I need a Grandmaster for the added mobility he brings. He's just so many points though, just to be able to scout/outflank a unit... But yet so enticing...

Have you consider taking Rhinos instead of Razorbacks? I always feel like you are hamstringing yourself when you put purifiers in razorbacks because it halves your shots and psycannons are so good. I have found units of 6-7 purrifiers to be perfect and put them in rhinos. I also back them up with 2 dreadknights instead of quad autocannon dreadnoughts because they offer that incredible movement potential and act as giant bullet magnets.

I have also found that if you run 10 purifiers, a good combination I have found is to run 2 incinerators and 2 psycannons and combat squad them in a single rhino. Drive up and drop off the suicide flamer squad to roast something and then continue to drive by shoot everything from with in the rhino with your psycannons. The incinerators plus cleansing flame are awesome for being a charge deterrent as well.

Dan

Have you consider taking Rhinos instead of Razorbacks? I always feel like you are hamstringing yourself when you put purifiers in razorbacks because it halves your shots and psycannons are so good. I have found units of 6-7 purrifiers to be perfect and put them in rhinos. I also back them up with 2 dreadknights instead of quad autocannon dreadnoughts because they offer that incredible movement potential and act as giant bullet magnets.

I have also found that if you run 10 purifiers, a good combination I have found is to run 2 incinerators and 2 psycannons and combat squad them in a single rhino. Drive up and drop off the suicide flamer squad to roast something and then continue to drive by shoot everything from with in the rhino with your psycannons. The incinerators plus cleansing flame are awesome for being a charge deterrent as well.

Hrm.. I think you might be playing this wrong. If you combat squad, your two halves are considered to be seperate units and can not share a single rhino. The psycannons can steal the rhino but you won't be able to have the incinerator group inside there and vice versa.

On another trend, I'm experimenting with the evisor assasin and frankly I find him to be surprisingly good in a henchmen list. He's a crazy CC monster and I mostly use him in a counter attack role so often things are already stuck in and I can use someone else to accept challenges.

If he charges a group, you can tie them all up with challenges if they accept or at least kick out the sergeant or something. Divination + lightning claw reroll wounds is fun with 4+D6+1 on the furious charge which tends to do well since he has fleet.(averages go up to around a 9' charge I think). His AP2 pistol is even useful against terminator units (but still just a pistol but meh, w/e. it's almost always gonna hit and wound). Overall fun choice but probably just slightly behind a squad of purifiers kitted out for melee.

Still can't get the culuxus to really do much other than as a shooting against terminator platform though.

Callidus I have some nice tricks with at least esp with IG allies.

Vindicare is still a good choice I think in some lists. Heavy armor penetration is useful if you face alot of buildings which are more prominant now as well as the old standbys of land raider and monolith's. Also still unclear on how it impacts crazy cheese like 2++ rerolling craziness's stuff.
People think he has less survivability but I really don't see a change. I tend to park him in a ruins for LOS reasons so he's generally gonna get 4+ cover, bolster ruins takes it to 3+, and stealth is still 2+ cover save so it's not changed at all. Still always have the fancy pistol shots on the move as well. Just becareful of lash making you impact fall from the top of the ruins lol. Friend use it on me the other day and we had to try to figure out how that was supposed to work but after discussing it, it totally works! It's a very viable strat. (too bad we'll only ever be on the receiving end of that thing)

Melchiour wrote:

l0k1 wrote:For purifier spam players I had a thought last night. I know we all kinda sigh at taking Crowe and trying to figure out what to do with him so, what if you take a Aegis Defense Line and have him man the guns?

I was writing my list for next week and was looking at this as well. My first thought was a soloadin on a gun, but Crowe works as well. Only concern is that he is somewhat exposed. I usually have him in a razorback currently.

He is a lot less safe in a Razorback in the new rules. It's too easy to destroy on him, leaving him stranded. At least behind the Defence Line he can Go to Ground if absolutely necessary. I'd consider putting him in a Raven and leaving him there until he is needed though.

sudojoe wrote:

Have you consider taking Rhinos instead of Razorbacks? I always feel like you are hamstringing yourself when you put purifiers in razorbacks because it halves your shots and psycannons are so good. I have found units of 6-7 purrifiers to be perfect and put them in rhinos. I also back them up with 2 dreadknights instead of quad autocannon dreadnoughts because they offer that incredible movement potential and act as giant bullet magnets.

I have also found that if you run 10 purifiers, a good combination I have found is to run 2 incinerators and 2 psycannons and combat squad them in a single rhino. Drive up and drop off the suicide flamer squad to roast something and then continue to drive by shoot everything from with in the rhino with your psycannons. The incinerators plus cleansing flame are awesome for being a charge deterrent as well.

Hrm.. I think you might be playing this wrong. If you combat squad, your two halves are considered to be seperate units and can not share a single rhino.

Yes they can, it's one of the changes for the new edition.

Yes they can, it's one of the changes for the new edition.

I stand corrected! That is a neat trick, I totally didn't read that last line lol. Thanks for pointing it out

sudojoe wrote:

Yes they can, it's one of the changes for the new edition.

I stand corrected! That is a neat trick, I totally didn't read that last line lol. Thanks for pointing it out

Technically I didn't :p

It will be interesting to see how it will play into the game.

Just had an idea that may be a little off the wall from normal.

Would using MSU of Paladins work as Objective Takers and Surgical Strike Teams?

I'm thinking 2-3 man squads?

Puscifer wrote:Just had an idea that may be a little off the wall from normal.

Would using MSU of Paladins work as Objective Takers and Surgical Strike Teams?

I'm thinking 2-3 man squads?

I liked it, I tried this tactic on an ork player. He was flustered because they deep struck away from what his gameplan was and he was forced to divert and kill them or keep eating pie plates from them.

Pie Plates from Paladins?

Ok... I'm confused.

I can see the use now in a 12 model capacity transport

10 purifiers + a terminator librarian

or as BA - 2 sets of sang priests or something or one and some chaplin or something

A fancy delivery vehicle seating 12 could assault 2 seperate vehicles in one fell swoop

I can see say a storm raven going flat out on arrival and using shrouding for the fancy save and then next turn drop off potentially 3 units to assault 3 seperate enemy positions. (hover mode)

Expensive, but can have a big impact on a traditional gun line in target saturation. 4 targets and 3 things may be engaged by that one reserve roll.

This is a surprising use I didn't think of before.




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Puscifer wrote:Pie Plates from Paladins?

Ok... I'm confused.

They have the holocaust power which is a large pie plate at lower range

I'm clearly not reading the entire book lol.

Can someone please clarify the rules for Holocaust?

Currently at work with no codex to hand.

Puscifer wrote:I'm clearly not reading the entire book lol.

Can someone please clarify the rules for Holocaust?

Currently at work with no codex to hand.

One pally per unit can choose to take a psy test and shoot a S5 AP- 12" range pizza at someone. So with multi units of 1-3 models it gets silly if they all arrive via deep strike.

:-O

That's a bit harsh. Brilliant, but harsh.

Not entirely. It's still AP- and 12" range. It is limited in use, which is why it is rarely seen.

It is limited in use, which is why it is rarely seen

I use it way more in 6th than in 5th though as it seems to me the single paladin has more going for him in 6th than in 5th.

Also now the apothecary is actually wortwhile and he lacks a stormbolter, he can cast it.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

It is limited in use, which is why it is rarely seen

I use it way more in 6th than in 5th though as it seems to me the single paladin has more going for him in 6th than in 5th.

Also now the apothecary is actually wortwhile and he lacks a stormbolter, he can cast it.

Soladins are only worth it in Draigowing, a list that while good is severly hampered because of the several hard counters for it that exist.

As for the Apothecary, he's the same as before IMO; a good choice, but often 85pts you can't afford, especially given how durable 2+ and LOS already make the unit.

Nah, the apothecary is now worth his points because he saves plasma and other AP2 S7 fire, which was a major annoyance to paladins in 5th.

Draigo/Paladins/Support lists have, I think, got very much better in 6th than in 5th (though they need to be run somewhat differently). Certainly, lists that gave me trouble in 5th seem to me to be less effective versus (and admittedly modified) paladin build in 6th.

Overall, the combination of how wounds are allocated in shooting, LOS! and how challenges and assault wound allocation work means paladins seem actually better overall in 6th than in 5th. And in 5th they may not have been the best GK build, but they held their own.


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Nah, the apothecary is now worth his points because he saves plasma and other AP2 S7 fire, which was a major annoyance to paladins in 5th.

Draigo/Paladins/Support lists have, I think, got very much better in 6th than in 5th (though they need to be run somewhat differently). Certainly, lists that gave me trouble in 5th seem to me to be less effective versus (and admittedly modified) paladin build in 6th.

Overall, the combination of how wounds are allocated in shooting, LOS! and how challenges and assault wound allocation work means paladins seem actually better overall in 6th than in 5th. And in 5th they may not have been the best GK build, but they held their own.

I absolutely agree with Blood, the apothecary is absolutely worth it now. You now receive FNP against almost all MCs, S3 base powerfist attacks, plasma, and draigo now gets FNP against melta weapons.

Also, I have found that instead of running solodins in a draigo lists, that 2 paladin squads work miracles. Include 1 halberd and 1 hammer they can go after units or tie up other units for a round or two and still hide effectively on an objective if needed. My solodins in 5th always managed to die, but now running drops of 2 paladins they are much more survivable and can put out damage if needed.

Plasma isn't something that worries Paladins in my experience, unless there's a lot of it, as (a) it doesn't kill them outright like normal Terminators, and (b) there's normally a character with a good invul. at the front. In the case of the lists ye are talking about, that would be Draigo.

Yes, Draigowing is much better in 6th than it was in 5th, but there a lot of better Grey Knight lists that can be built and that don't have a several auto-lose match-ups. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that something that got much better in the new edition is automatically the new 'it' for the army.

As for the Apothecary, like I said, he's worth it, but like before it is still 85pts you could be spending on a unit or units that actually do really need it. My 5 Paladins come to 345pts as it is with making it 430pts, especially since as tough as they are, they can still only kill so much, and as their points go that high they struggle to make them back.

The apothecary should really only go in the Deathstar Paladin Squad. He's a complete waste in anything smaller IMO.


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Oh, one more thing...

Do Nemesis Doomfists make Dreadknights STR 10?
I read somewhere that they don't.

Puscifer wrote:Do Nemesis Doomfists make Dreadknights STR 10?
I read somewhere that they don't.

Yes, they do. Now it applys to every Doomfist, not just the Dreadnought ones for being bipod.

I just realized that a deep striking storm raven acts like a drop pod?

since it's classified as a skimmer, and if you hit something that it shouldn't, you move it by the closes distance till it isn't in the bad spot, right?

How does it work for the flier rules?

sudojoe wrote:I just realized that a deep striking storm raven acts like a drop pod?

since it's classified as a skimmer, and if you hit something that it shouldn't, you move it by the closes distance till it isn't in the bad spot, right?

How does it work for the flier rules?

Nope, with a Storm Raven you can choose what mode you are in when you enter, so if you drop in while Zooming (remember you count as having moved Cruising Speed so you don't crash), you ignore terrain altogether.

BTW unless something changed, Skimmers don't have that rule either, it is specific to Drop Pods.

I was getting that move thing from page 83 since it says if you end your movement over friendly or enemy models, you can move it out of the way.

Not really sure how I'm supposed to play that thing

Puscifer wrote:The apothecary should really only go in the Deathstar Paladin Squad. He's a complete waste in anything smaller IMO.


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Oh, one more thing...

Do Nemesis Doomfists make Dreadknights STR 10?
I read somewhere that they don't.

In 5th, DCCWs had different wording. They only doubled the Str of walkers.

In 6th they have been changed to just a flat double str and AP2.

What happens when Draigowings end up facing off against heavy GK Storm Ravens, I can see very bad things happening.

With Pskers being the rave in 6th Storm Ravens are a must for any Grey Knight army IMO, what better way to autopunk those pschic MCs, Librarians, and Farseers let alone the damage they can do do Grey Knights, 4 well placed Mindstrike Missiles will kill Draigo an the missiles are usually an afterthought.

I honestly wish that we had access to storm talons and drop pods X_x

especially for the fact that GK's when I first ever read about them came down from drop pods in that first black library novel.

I wouldn't say ravens are a must have by any means (though I run 3 currently at 2000 points with my paladin list). Ravens are good but they're not must haves.

I agree, paladin lists are at a disadvantage against other GK lists with Ravens. But I think in 6th, whatever list you make from whatever codex, you're going to run into a competitive list that will have you at a disadvantage. I'm not yet convinced of this, but it's my ever growing suspicion that 6th has actually made 'all comers' lists (in the sense of stand a decent chance against any other list) effectively impossible (at least at most points values).

sudojoe wrote:I honestly wish that we had access to storm talons and drop pods X_x

especially for the fact that GK's when I first ever read about them came down from drop pods in that first black library novel.

Ravens are better than Talons.


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Blood and Slaughter wrote:I wouldn't say ravens are a must have by any means (though I run 3 currently at 2000 points with my paladin list). Ravens are good but they're not must haves.

I agree, paladin lists are at a disadvantage against other GK lists with Ravens. But I think in 6th, whatever list you make from whatever codex, you're going to run into a competitive list that will have you at a disadvantage. I'm not yet convinced of this, but it's my ever growing suspicion that 6th has actually made 'all comers' lists (in the sense of stand a decent chance against any other list) effectively impossible (at least at most points values).

I dunno Ravens are good against basically anything, I think that they help build a great all comers list, with an Inquisitor you have excellent reserve modification, and you can plan out when the Ravens come in, if you are playing against flyers an go 1st you can prevent them from coming in until you have a good opportunity to hammer enemy flyers, and if your opponent is without air support they come in on a 2+ on turn 2. Fly on nuke the most serious threat to your flyers. I believe strongly in using Storm Ravens as transports although I lost 9 guys out of a 10 man Purifier squad an Raven to a sneaky Vendetta. My opponent ignored the lone Purifier not wanting to shoot a squandron of Leman Russes at it, an with a good charge roll I was able to wreck two tanks with that Purifier.

Yes, but the Talon has some nice qualities. Not to mention its cheaper so you could field a Flyer without spending as many points on it. And lots of players, including myself, don't use the transport capabilities of the Stormraven so those are wasted points(its far too risky for the unit inside)

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, but the Talon has some nice qualities. Not to mention its cheaper so you could field a Flyer without spending as many points on it. And lots of players, including myself, don't use the transport capabilities of the Stormraven so those are wasted points(its far too risky for the unit inside)

Yes it is risky, but the reward outweighs the risk IMO just don't stick an expensive squad of Paladins in there I like running Purifiers with Incinerators out of a Raven. Orcs would die at the sight of it going into hover mode .

You could always ally to get a Talon, although one isn't gonna do a whole lot.

4 well placed Mindstrike Missiles will kill Draigo

Yes. And one well placed lascannon shot will destroy a raven. I don't see it's that big a thing given that you'll tend to need 6 or more mindstrikes fired to kill Draigo. Hence two ravens worth of firing and it'll either take two turns or one raven will have to drop into hover mode (or destruct mode as we should perhaps term it).

I like ravens and I think they may be the best flier in the game in a absolute sense (not point for point). But they're not essential.

If Ravens aren't a must, how do people plan on dealing with multiple flyers? And please God don't say Psyfledreads because they do not do it.

BTW comparing hitting Draigo with Mindstrikes with hitting a Raven with a Lascannon is ridiculous. On average if you pump the 4 missiles into Draigo you will hit ~2 and that's 2 wounds, plus any other guys around him hit by the blasts. On the other hand, a single Lascannon has a 1/6 chance of hitting a Raven.

Well, Ravens can only shoot 2 missiles a turn, and then at least 2 more turns to swing back around for the second salvo. Unless you have 2 ravens, in which case I think its way too much trouble just to kill Draigo.

Well dreadnoughts wit dual autocannon/psybolts should score one hit each with every salvo, which is decent against weaker fliers (ie those with low AV).

Add to that a quad gun and you have decent (not stellar, but decent) anti-flier that should generally down one a turn. You also have to consider that running more than 3-4 flyers does have drawbacks with regard to manoueverability and weapons on the table at any one time. At the moment flyers seem great not because codices lack flakk missiles (which everyone seems to assume thay will get . . . ) but because people are still finding their feet with regard to how big a threat flyers pose to their winning the mission.

mc psycannon aren't too shabby anti-flyer. If you have eight shots with two re-rolls (one for each mc), you should be scoring a S7 rending hit or two.

Purifier spam with razorbacks will have a lot of volume of fire that can seriously threaten flyers (of course most purifier lists are still thinking in terms of having the troops inside rhinos, which I think is no longer optimal, but we'll see. . .)

Even Psybolt armed troops can hurt alot of the flyers out there. Anything that isn't a Stormraven or Vendetta can at least be glanced.

8 Psybolt armed troops will cause about one damage result to AV10 a turn.

Grey Templar wrote:Well, Ravens can only shoot 2 missiles a turn, and then at least 2 more turns to swing back around for the second salvo. Unless you have 2 ravens, in which case I think its way too much trouble just to kill Draigo.

Forgot about the missile limit, you are right. However it is still not parallel to a single Lascannon hitting a Raven.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Well dreadnoughts wit dual autocannon/psybolts should score one hit each with every salvo, which is decent against weaker fliers (ie those with low AV).

Add to that a quad gun and you have decent (not stellar, but decent) anti-flier that should generally down one a turn.

No, Psyfledreads get half a hit on average. So let's be generous and say between 3 you get 2 hits. Against a Raven or Vendetta that's 1 glance on average. Quad Gun gets just over 3 hits and thus 1 glance/pen. If a pen there's only a 1/6 chance it destroys it. So exactly how is 3 Psylfemen and a Quad Gun one flyer downed a turn.

People seem to be forgetting you need 6's to hit, or ignoring it. You need 6 shots on average to hit even; then you need to roll damage. And that's with guns that are strong enough. People are vastly overestimating their ability to shoot flyers down.

For the record I've played several games already, a few of which using 3 Dreads. They didn't cut it even once against just a single Raven. Ye also need to remember that sure if you throw enough firepower at a flyer you will hit and eventually destroy it, but since when is it good tactics to throw a whole army of firepower at something they are unlikely to damage? If you take the units out of a vacuum and do the math, you will see that adequate dedicated anti-air is required for all lists, anfr Grey Knights that's either Ravens or allies.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:If Ravens aren't a must, how do people plan on dealing with multiple flyers? And please God don't say Psyfledreads because they do not do it.

BTW comparing hitting Draigo with Mindstrikes with hitting a Raven with a Lascannon is ridiculous. On average if you pump the 4 missiles into Draigo you will hit ~2 and that's 2 wounds, plus any other guys around him hit by the blasts. On the other hand, a single Lascannon has a 1/6 chance of hitting a Raven.

followed by a 50/50 shot to pen, followed by a 2 in chance to wreck it. A singe lascannon would have to roll extremely well to manage that.

Psfledreads would be better if they were allowed to fire, anything Str8 TL with 4 shots dies first. Followed by anything else high Str TL an 3 Storm Ravens can make that happen, hell Blood Angel Storm Ravens would be better because they could pump out an additional 6 Str 8 Ap1 shots along with the MM an LC/PC


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Grey Templar wrote:Well, Ravens can only shoot 2 missiles a turn, and then at least 2 more turns to swing back around for the second salvo. Unless you have 2 ravens, in which case I think its way too much trouble just to kill Draigo.

I run three an am not shy about putting them into hover mode, thats 6 in round 2 and another 6 in round three Draigo and several of his Paladins are dead at the end of round 3.

Um, no.

6s to hit, with a reroll for twin-linking is 11/36 chance of a hit. 4 shots, your chance of no hits is about 5% per dreadnought. That's a 95% chance of at least one hit per dreadnought. So let's be conservative and say 3 hits for 3 dreadnoughts.

Flyers can be anything from AV10 - AV12. Let's say AV12 to be as pessimistic as possible. Okay now you have a 50% chance per S8 hit of a glance or pen. So we can bamnk on our dreadnoughts reliably doing 1 or 2 HP damage.

Quad gun of course will be hitting 8/9 of the time with 4 shots. So here we're looking at 3 hits as a conservative average. It's only S7 so we need 5s to glance. We should get one.

So against the toughest flyer in the game we've actually got a very good chance of bringing it down with 3 dreadnoughts and a single quad gun.

Very good points valace.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Um, no.

6s to hit, with a reroll for twin-linking is 11/36 chance of a hit. 4 shots, your chance of no hits is about 5% per dreadnought. That's a 95% chance of at least one hit per dreadnought. So let's be conservative and say 3 hits for 3 dreadnoughts.

Flyers can be anything from AV10 - AV12. Let's say AV12 to be as pessimistic as possible. Okay now you have a 50% chance per S8 hit of a glance or pen. So we can bamnk on our dreadnoughts reliably doing 1 or 2 HP damage.

Quad gun of course will be hitting 8/9 of the time with 4 shots. So here we're looking at 3 hits as a conservative average. It's only S7 so we need 5s to glance. We should get one.

So against the toughest flyer in the game we've actually got a very good chance of bringing it down with 3 dreadnoughts and a single quad gun.

Thats assuming they get to fire, thats why I don't mind putting my flyers into hover mode, after 2 rounds of shooting from them the opponents ability to damage them should be limited and if I lose a Storm Raven in turn 3 oh well I have boots on the ground and the enemy should be bleeding pretty bad.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Um, no.

6s to hit, with a reroll for twin-linking is 11/36 chance of a hit. 4 shots, your chance of no hits is about 5% per dreadnought. That's a 95% chance of at least one hit per dreadnought. So let's be conservative and say 3 hits for 3 dreadnoughts.

Incorrect again. 4 TL shots needing 6's to hit, get 0.6 hits each.

I think we should agree to disagree, because just like the Dragiowing debate, you are set in your own personal fondness and experiences, and I am set in the tournament experience of me and my friends here as well as the statistical and tactical appearances. Simply, we aren't going to agree I think, so let's not clog up the thread.

well I am going to continue preaching about the transport capability of the Storm Raven I love it, even though the squad inside gets cooked should something bad happen, if you are careful an pick your targets well that shouldn't happen.

Its an amazing vehicle, People used it as a transport and while the 4+ cover save for flat out in 5th was nice, an 3+ if you had a Libby inside the 5+ jink is still useful. Those Str10 Ap1 hits are a b*tch though.

No guts no glory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
for 258pts (a bargain IMO) you can have 10x Purifiers with 4x Incinerators, 4x Halberds, an 2x Deamon Hammers coming out of a Storm Raven thats a whole lotta cover ignoring pain, Tau dead, Orcs dead, Guard dead, an Terminators having to take a massive amount of 2+ saves. Its an all purpose beat stick for 463pts

valace2 wrote:No guts no glory.

That's fine - it's fun and when it works it's amazing; I guess the question is "Is it reliable enough for a solid list?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Um, no.

6s to hit, with a reroll for twin-linking is 11/36 chance of a hit. 4 shots, your chance of no hits is about 5% per dreadnought. That's a 95% chance of at least one hit per dreadnought. So let's be conservative and say 3 hits for 3 dreadnoughts.

Incorrect again. 4 TL shots needing 6's to hit, get 0.6 hits each.

6's to hit, with a reroll is 11/36 chance of a hit, which is a 25/36 chance of a miss (roughly 70%). The chance of 4 misses in a row is 25/36 * 25/36 * 25/36 * 25/36 I think, which comes out at 0.23 (23%). So it's a 77% chance (100-23) of at least one hit per dreadnought. The chance of missing with 4 dreadnoughts would be 0.23 * 0.23 * 0.23 * 0.23 = 0.003 (0.3%).

Not quite sure where the 0.6 hits comes in?

I don't see why you have to hover to engage dreadnoughts.

I do agree that ravens have the upper hand. Then again, if they're engaging dreadnoughts, they're likely not engaging paladins with mindstrikes. . .

Still, TL multi-melta has a 32% chance of destroying a dreadnought in one hit (assuming no cover save applies), which is not shabby, and a TL assault cannon, psybolts should put a hull point one one (two with some luck). So you can reliably hope that two ravens will remove a dreadnought a turn. With some luck, they might get one each.

As I say, I like ravens, I run 3 at 2000, they suit my style. Also opponents tend to panic when they see two or more coming on the board in turn 2.

I do, however, think that as people become used to flyers and stop panicking so much, we won't need universal flakk missiles for ground based lists to hold their own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

6's to hit, with a reroll is 11/36 chance of a hit, which is a 25/36 chance of a miss (roughly 70%). The chance of 4 misses in a row is 25/36 * 25/36 * 25/36 * 25/36 I think, which comes out at 0.23 (23%).

No, mate.

.69 for one shot
.48 for two
.23 for 3
.05 for 4.


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Incorrect again. 4 TL shots needing 6's to hit, get 0.6 hits each.

Actually you are incorrect again.

a single shot has a .69 chance of missing.
therefore 4 have a .05 chance (see above).

Like I said before in another thread, I think ground based lists are fine so as long as they have something to reliably deal with multiple flyers. All depends on the rest of the list of course as well, as some armies can use movement to negate their effect as they slowly try and whittle them down, but the problem is that as they attempt that they are usually losing a counter a turn. Unfortunately IMO Grey Knights can't play it this way, as we are too small and without the right sort of gun/troop combos to handle it. I will always take my two Ravens in every list, because they do so much more than just counter flyers (and have never died so far). But I will never again buy into 3 Dreads working in 6th edition. I tried it a few times, and they never made their points back, they just died.

Well I am 5-1 in 6th ed games with transport Ravens an have only lost one
with boots onboard.

you are set in your own personal fondness and experiences, and I am set in the tournament experience of me and my friends here as well as the statistical and tactical appearances

Two things here.

First I don't tend to go telling people what are 'must haves' except where a specific choice (eg a stormraven) may well have an optimal build for its purpose (hence always take a stave in a paladin squad because it's hugely useful)

Second. I actually have the stats on my side and I think I've probably got just a little experience against 6the edition lists played by decent players.

But we may certainly agree to disagree.

valace2 wrote:Well I am 5-1 in 6th ed games with transport Ravens an have only lost one
with boots onboard.

So you've won 5 games in the new edition by taking 3 stormravens each time when barely anyone has defenses against them yet.

Congrats

BTW Sethorly is actually right on this one, I looked at it, and ran the numbers again with a different perspective and got that each Dreads has a 68.9% chance of missing completely. Not sure where you are getting your numbers from, as looking at what you have posted makes no sense to me. Your first number matches mine and Sethorly's, but after that it makes no sense.

Also, I don't like how you blanketly imply that the players you have played against are better than the ones I have played against.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

valace2 wrote:Well I am 5-1 in 6th ed games with transport Ravens an have only lost one
with boots onboard.

So you've won 5 games in the new edition by taking 3 stormravens each time when barely anyone has defenses against them yet.

Congrats

And yet according to this thread and the people valace is arguing against we do have defences against them

by taking 3 stormravens each time when barely anyone has defenses against them yet.

In fairness I think most codices do actually have the tools to deal with 3 ravens, it's mainly that at the moment people either don't choose to take them (and the tools are not limited to weapons options in codices, flyers have in game weaknesses that can be exploited without necessarily shooting at them) or they panic when the flyers appear and concentrate more on them than on the mission.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

valace2 wrote:Well I am 5-1 in 6th ed games with transport Ravens an have only lost one
with boots onboard.

So you've won 5 games in the new edition by taking 3 stormravens each time when barely anyone has defenses against them yet.

Congrats

OK way to assume there.

Been mainly running 2 but have grown to like 3, an in the last one my opponent had 2 vendettas. 2 of the games were against a really good player who didn't mind me running 2-3 flyers.


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An the game I lost was to a great Tau player who had no flyers or fortifications

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

by taking 3 stormravens each time when barely anyone has defenses against them yet.

In fairness I think most codices do actually have the tools to deal with 3 ravens, it's mainly that at the moment people either don't choose to take them (and the tools are not limited to weapons options in codices, flyers have in game weaknesses that can be exploited without necessarily shooting at them) or they panic when the flyers appear and concentrate more on them than on the mission.

And this is what I've been saying all along. It's fine to not take flyers if you have other anti-air tools, but some people seem to think you can ignore them. And this is why Ravens are a must for Grey Knights unless you are taking allies, because they just happen to be our only reliable method of anti-air (our math aside, even if 3 Dreads and a Quad took down one a turn, that's not reliable, and it is assuming that those means are still alive by turn 2).

valace2 wrote:
OK way to assume there.

Been mainly running 2 but have grown to like 3, an in the last one my opponent had 2 vendettas. 2 of the games were against a really good player who didn't mind me running 2-3 flyers.


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An the game I lost was to a great Tau player who had no flyers or fortifications

How is it an assumption when that is what you said?

daedalus-templarius wrote:

valace2 wrote:
OK way to assume there.

Been mainly running 2 but have grown to like 3, an in the last one my opponent had 2 vendettas. 2 of the games were against a really good player who didn't mind me running 2-3 flyers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An the game I lost was to a great Tau player who had no flyers or fortifications

How is it an assumption when that is what you said?

Where did he say he won 5 times specifically with 3 Ravens?

valace2 wrote:Well I am 5-1 in 6th ed games with transport Ravens an have only lost one
with boots onboard.

What?

So in some he had 2, this wasn't specified when he said this.

Your comment was kinda rude actually, you implied that it was a no brainer that I would win running three flyers without knowing the details of the games.

You're quite right, actually, I made a silly mathematical error, sorry.

Even so 23% chance of missing is in fact balanced by the fact that you will not always get one just hit.

But having done what I should have in the first place, here's some stats:

3 dreadnoughts firing at a zooming raven have a 41% chance of wrecking.

a quad gun has a 17% chance to destroy

the four units combined have a 66% chance to destroy (cumulative galnces making the difference)

Now a raven firing at a dreadnought not in cover has a 40% chance to destroy with its melta and a 17% chance with its 'psycannon' or a 15% chance with a lascannon.

Certainly a raven has a much better chance of destroying a dreadnought than the dreadnoughts and quad gun do a raven. Two ravens should (over the game) win the battle. But if they both come in on turn two, it'll take them til turn five (as a comnservative average) to do so. Assuming they can remain on the board and engage for all three turns.

You're forgetting that the Stormraven will most likely Jink, dropping your chances of wrecking that Stormraven to around 40%.
And you're dedicating 505 points of firepower to do it.so, we're still talking about expected kill value of ~90 points per turn of shooting from those 505 points.
Now, if that SR jinks you don't have to worry about it's shooting too much, I give you that. But unless no-one shoots back, you'll be hard pressed to kill two SR's during game with 3 Psyfleman and single quad-gun.

valace2 wrote:Your comment was kinda rude actually, you implied that it was a no brainer that I would win running three flyers without knowing the details of the games.

Taking 3 Ravens when not many people have proper defenses against them as a no brainer was what I was implying.


Also, why the hell are avatars not showing up on my browser when I don't have them toggled off?

Blood, remember that's a 40% chance for an explode result alone. He should be taking a second hull point with the Assault Cannon on average. Then the second Raven splits using POTM and kills that Dread with the Assault Cannon (last hull point) and still has a 40% chance to pop a second. All in one turn. If this happens, as is more likely the case than the Raven being downed first, then your chances of taking out one of the Ravens from then on is laughable.

Just to add, I realise you aren't arguing that Dreads will beat Ravens, I'm just adding to what you already said at this point.

Luide wrote:You're forgetting that the Stormraven will most likely Jink

No it won't 'cause then it either isn't flying high, or isn't shooting at full BS.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Blood, remember that's a 40% chance for an explode result alone. He should be taking a second hull point with the Assault Cannon on average. Then the second Raven splits using POTM and kills that Dread with the Assault Cannon (last hull point) and still has a 40% chance to pop a second. All in one turn. If this happens, as is more likely the case than the Raven being downed first, then your chances of taking out one of the Ravens from then on is laughable.

Just to add, I realise you aren't arguing that Dreads will beat Ravens, I'm just adding to what you already said at this point.

Luide wrote:You're forgetting that the Stormraven will most likely Jink

No it won't 'cause then it either isn't flying high, or isn't shooting at full BS.

That all depends, if its an Ap1 or 2 an even more so if I have troops on board. If its Str7 or higher with troops on board I jink, if its ap 1 or 2 an no troops I prolly still jink.

Flyers aren't too bad, I played against Necrons with a few Scythes yesterday. I ran:

Rune Priest - Divination
Coteaz - Divination

10 Purifiers - 4 Psycannon, 3 Hammer, Razorback w/ Psybolts, Searchlight
5 WG - 4 Combi-melta, 1 Plain

4x 5 Grey Hunters - Melta, Rhino
10 Strikes - 2 Psycannon, Hammer on Justicar, Razorback w/ Psybolts, Searchlight
3 Henchmen - Razorback w/ Psybolts, Searchlight

5 Purgation - 2 Incinerator, 2 Psycannon, Razorback w/ Psybolts
2x5 Long Fangs - 4 Missiles
Aegis Defence Line - Quadgun

I was able to reliably hit the flyers and take them out. Prescience is magic. Big units with 2+ Psycannons and rerolls should reliably put flyers down. If you clog the field and use Coteaz's I've been expecting well you can even get multiple alpha strikes on the flyers. GK's shouldn't have much of a problem with the new meta-game since we have some of the best anti-infantry items/abilities (Cleansing Flame, Incinerators, Psycannons, Stormbolters).

Thing is though, that isn't a Grey Knight list, that's a Space Wolves list with a few Grey Knight Allies. Thus it doesn't entirely apply to discussion in the Grey Knight thread.

Played a 5 player game of Relic; Dreadknight was MVP. He absorbed so much fire and killed so many units; my rolls for him were on fire apparently.

They spent a couple turns shooting at the Paladin deathstar, but when Draigo saved everything off and then some, they decided to shoot at my allies instead (and my Dreadknight). Their MC Psycannons pretty reliably turned everything they fired at into mush, would have loved to bring Coteaz but when fighting an Eldar, pretty sure he would have just peril'd himself to death.

Quadgun fired at my friend's Vendetta for like 3 turns, scored a single glance, and the firer on it was BS5 how does that even happen.

Anyways, more math! (stuck at work)

AC dread has a 7.22% chance to take down (explode/wreck w/e) a flier per 4 shots

Roughly it will take you 11-10 psycannon shots (non-twin linked) to achieve the same same kill ratio at around 7.98 to 7.07% chance to destroy. With 4 shots each, that's about 3 psycannons! (if they jink save themselves of course)

casting divination on them will just require some 3-4 psycannon shots (or 1 psycannon) to get almost 7 to 9.8% kill chance

Quad gun with someone with BS 4 shooting it - about 18.16% chance to down an AV 11 flier.. You will need exactly 8 shots from combined 2 AC dreads to equal that kill chance. (with them jink saving for a 5+ of course)

It will take some 20 psycannon shots to equal that at non-twin linked (or roughly 5 psycannons - 2 to 3 squads of purifiers or 3 large squads of strike squads) without divination to equal that.

BTW just ran the numbers for a squad of 10, shooting 20 shots, you can get 38.66% of a wreck off on AV 11. If you are shooting at a Jink'ing skimmer, that's cut down to 18.13% wreck.

Vs shooting at a flier - 1.72% of a wreck, if they Jink, that's cut down to 0.57% wreck.

------------------------------------------------

Not very good odds :/

Bottom line though, good chance or at least decent of wrecking a rhino in a single round.

Just for comparison - for that 20 points, you can get say get 2 hunter killer missles for your anti-tank - and then get roughly 7.27% of a wreck for 2 shots with jink/5+ save. or 10.80% without a cover save.

Vs flier - 2.76% of wreck for those same 2 shots. Down to 1.84% to wreck with jink save.

Overall, pretty decent investment for a 20 point investment at 10man shooting 20 shots.

----------------------------------------------------------

The break even point appears (where you tie with the 2 hunter killer missles) - on non-fliers (damn fliers lol) is around 9 to 10 shots fired (so 5 man or 6 man with a psycannon, or 7 man with 2 psycannons if say using purifiers)

at 9 shots it's 6.89% vs 10 shots at 9.06%. With jink, it drops to 15-16 shots to break even. (so like 8 guys, or 10 guys with 2 psycannons, and less useful the more psycannons you take)

Quite interesting after running the math.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just for fun, Psycannons - 1 psycannon 4 shots shooting at fliers - 3.86% to destroy, 2.51% vs Jink save
2 psycannons -9.36% 5.57% with jink

Vs non-fliers:

1 psycannon - 2 shots ( assault mode) - 7.27%, vs 4.88% with jink
4 shots - 23.57% vs 12.83%
8 shots - 65.38% vs 38.91%

Stuff I dragged up from page 10 and 11. Want me to just stick this stuff on the first page? seems to come up alot

Psycannon vs flier (just for clarification) (AV 11) (assuming no skyfire and 5+ jink save)

4 shots - at least wreck - 2.49%
8 shots - 5.37%
16 shots - 13.26%

That's about 5% less chance as a quad gun, and you need about 4 squads of 5 man purifiers worth of psycannons to do this.

Vs AV 12 (5+ jink)

4 shots - 1.24%
8 shots - 2.63%
16 shots - 6.33%

As to the sw + gk discussion, I actually like that sort of thing and frankly it's one of my more favorite combos as it's got excellent psy defense as well as access to drop pods and some fany elite choices like a lone wolf that gives alot of tactical flexibility.

In my local area, we have the full on necron air force, which is already morphing to a more balanced list that I'm sure many of you guys will see soon. It is NOT easy to beat, heck I've still yet to beat it except when he first started it and only killed it when I went with SW allies/main what have you and drop pod assinated his one guy hiding behind LOS by turn 1 for a cheap win

My psy powers "abuse" as many have started calling it with psykers buffing the heck of eachother is making at least 2 people ally with just an eldar farseer on bike with some guardian for the compulsatory choice just to shut me down. Ork + rune of warding is a pain in the butt to fight as you can't depend on your cleansing flame or pie plates. This of course then has forced me to always take at least 1 raven just for the mindstrikes which are still painful to get past ghost helms... still working on assasinating that thing. Believe me, it's tough to get everything you want at 1500.

Quite alot of good points so far and I have a feeling that you guys often play at 2k? due to game lengths, we've cut everything down to 1500. an almost 500 point unit is a much bigger risk to take at these points. at 2k I can totally risk it. 1500, might be too risky to do on a long term basis. If it goes bad, it's practically an auto loss. If it goes good, you can do decent as the enemy can definately dance around.

They really need to FAQ Runes of Warding unless they just want everyone to take an allied Farseer with them to totally shut down everyone casting anything ever.

daedalus-templarius wrote:They really need to FAQ Runes of Warding unless they just want everyone to take an allied Farseer with them to totally shut down everyone casting anything ever.

Not really since unless you are Battle Brothers Runes of Warding will affect allies as well. There's more too it than that also, as taking the Farseer means spending points on a least an Eldar Troop choice, which is points not spent on your own army, which in a lot of cases is better. Unless you need to ally, it is best not to.

@sudojoe, we play 1850pts over here, though some events are now pushing to 1999pts to see how it goes.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:They really need to FAQ Runes of Warding unless they just want everyone to take an allied Farseer with them to totally shut down everyone casting anything ever.

Not really since unless you are Battle Brothers Runes of Warding will affect allies as well. There's more too it than that also, as taking the Farseer means spending points on a least an Eldar Troop choice, which is points not spent on your own army, which in a lot of cases is better. Unless you need to ally, it is best not to.

@sudojoe, we play 1850pts over here, though some events are now pushing to 1999pts to see how it goes.

Well I guess I'll tell him this. If he chooses to bring them, no psychic powers for anyone!

He might be switching to Necrons anyway.

Not really since unless you are Battle Brothers Runes of Warding will affect allies as well. There's more too it than that also, as taking the Farseer means spending points on a least an Eldar Troop choice, which is points not spent on your own army, which in a lot of cases is better. Unless you need to ally, it is best not to.

Just not worth it for us to take really but as other armies likeTau, ork(even as desperate), DE, black templar, dark angel, and even some SM armies like bikes and IG, they can really shift the battle. With divination I can outshoot alot of folks, without, some of these fire power armies really have an edge.

One really good combo that's kind of been kind of overlooked lately I think has been Tau + Eldar. Really good long range fire power, buffs can go around, psy power defense, and alot of mobility to get out of assault range with jetpack moves.

Other than the necron air forces, flying daemons, and 2++ reroll combos (fate terminators/vect bomb), I have a feeling tau + eldar will be a force to be reckoned with after we get some nice balanced lists out there. Also don't count out nids, They've actually been a good challenge either that or the nid players near me have been pretty good.

Sorry to shift the convo back to flyers, but I see someone brought up a Farseer so I just have to comment. If I play Eldar now what will be the first thing to die? It will screw with communion, but I always try for the Warlord trait that allows rerolls on reserves, as soon as a Storm Raven hits the table it is going Farseer hunting, another reason I like the change to PotW that Farseer will be toast whithin 1-2 turns.

Yea, mindstrike is super effective vs their 3+ ghosthelm save. And by that, I mean its not very effective.

At least they can't fortune it (I found out after my opponent fortuned it)

So maybe it is effective if they aren't fortuning their ghosthelm saves.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Yea, mindstrike is super effective vs their 3+ ghosthelm save. And by that, I mean its not very effective.

At least they can't fortune it (I found out after my opponent fortuned it)

So maybe it is effective if they aren't fortuning their ghosthelm saves.

Ouch my limited knowledge of Eldar kinda screwed me there, regardless I will pump at least 4-6 mindstrikes into him, as well as 2-3 plasma into his squad, might not kill him but it will sting.

sudojoe wrote:One really good combo that's kind of been kind of overlooked lately I think has been Tau + Eldar. Really good long range fire power, buffs can go around, psy power defense, and alot of mobility to get out of assault range with jetpack moves.

Played it, beat it. It's good, but nothing special.

valace2 wrote:If I play Eldar now what will be the first thing to die? It will screw with communion.

Not if you roll 3D6 tests like I do

valace2 wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Yea, mindstrike is super effective vs their 3+ ghosthelm save. And by that, I mean its not very effective.

At least they can't fortune it (I found out after my opponent fortuned it)

So maybe it is effective if they aren't fortuning their ghosthelm saves.

Ouch my limited knowledge of Eldar kinda screwed me there, regardless I will pump at least 4-6 mindstrikes into him, as well as 2-3 plasma into his squad, might not kill him but it will sting.

That would probably kill them, but it is probably Eldrad with like, 3 warlocks. They all have ghost helms, and eldrad will probably have his 3++ rerollable from fortune up as well. Depending on the angle of attack, it probably wouldn't be too hard to kill the warlocks first. Eldrad is a bitch though.

Can a quad gun shoot at everything with its full ballistic skill? It certainly seems like it can, since it has Skyfire and Interceptor.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

valace2 wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Yea, mindstrike is super effective vs their 3+ ghosthelm save. And by that, I mean its not very effective.

At least they can't fortune it (I found out after my opponent fortuned it)

So maybe it is effective if they aren't fortuning their ghosthelm saves.

Ouch my limited knowledge of Eldar kinda screwed me there, regardless I will pump at least 4-6 mindstrikes into him, as well as 2-3 plasma into his squad, might not kill him but it will sting.

That would probably kill them, but it is probably Eldrad with like, 3 warlocks. They all have ghost helms, and eldrad will probably have his 3++ rerollable from fortune up as well. Depending on the angle of attack, it probably wouldn't be too hard to kill the warlocks first. Eldrad is a bitch though.

Can a quad gun shoot at everything with its full ballistic skill? It certainly seems like it can, since it has Skyfire and Interceptor.

Yep either in the air or on the ground but its only BS3 isn't it?


We only have 1 or 2 Eldar players in the area so Eldar usually aren't a problem.

valace2 wrote:

Yep either in the air or on the ground but its only BS3 isn't it?


We only have 1 or 2 Eldar players in the area so Eldar usually aren't a problem.

I believe it is BS2 normally, but if they have a unit directing it, it uses the ballistic skill of the firer. So today he had a dire avenger exarch on it, with BS5. Still only managed one glance on a vendetta, lol.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Thing is though, that isn't a Grey Knight list, that's a Space Wolves list with a few Grey Knight Allies. Thus it doesn't entirely apply to discussion in the Grey Knight thread.

More points in the GK portion.

omg im being id 'd from text about gk now just shoot me now

Gorfang EadSplitta wrote:omg im being id 'd from text about gk now just shoot me now

you mean the wall o-text that is the first page?

the GK cheese unfortunately has moved on. It's clearly in the necron cheese corner right now. If you haven't seen it yet, don't worry, it'll catch on enough soon. Makes GK cheese of 5th seem like a mild bree instead of the flying limberger of the necrons.

Honestly, Necrons are so bad right now that I won't even play against them. Grey Knights may have been pretty powerful when they first came out, but they weren't even close to where Necrons are now.

If you get past the runes of warding in eldar, whats the counter for all of their ap2 and ap3 shots? Cause honestly thats my problem. 3D6 tests don't bother me as much as the ap3 shots 4x star cannons can shoot

daedalus-templarius wrote: They all have ghost helms, and eldrad will probably have his 3++ rerollable from fortune up as well.

I'd have to check my Eldar Codex, but I'm pretty sure only Farseers and not Warlocks have Ghosthelms.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote: They all have ghost helms, and eldrad will probably have his 3++ rerollable from fortune up as well.

I'd have to check my Eldar Codex, but I'm pretty sure only Farseers and not Warlocks have Ghosthelms.

Just checked an you are correct, so a Storm Raven assault would screw their unit up pretty bad

Now I know if a unit of Grey Knights or a IG psyker squad was hit they would only take one PotW, I wonder how that would affect a Farseer an his Warlocks.

valace2 wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote: They all have ghost helms, and eldrad will probably have his 3++ rerollable from fortune up as well.

I'd have to check my Eldar Codex, but I'm pretty sure only Farseers and not Warlocks have Ghosthelms.

Just checked an you are correct, so a Storm Raven assault would screw their unit up pretty bad

Now I know if a unit of Grey Knights or a IG psyker squad was hit they would only take one PotW, I wonder how that would affect a Farseer an his Warlocks.

No, Mindstrikes are not spell attempts, and thus the Brotherhood of Psykers rules don't count; every model touched by the blast takes a Perils, not just the Justicar.

No, Mindstrikes are not spell attempts, and thus the Brotherhood of Psykers rules don't count; every model touched by the blast takes a Perils, not just the Justicar.

we have definately not been playing it like this even since 5th edition. Resolve the perils against one model for the brotherhood even if the justicar is dead is what we do here. So far the places I've visited in the US have also done it this way. Have not seen anyone perils the whole group yet. Reference: page 21. The unit suffers the perils. does not specify spell casting or source of the perils.

On the flip side, if you hit just one of a group of battle psykers, their rule will kill them all.

The IG battle psykers will get "saved" by their comissar.

The eldar codex says that each warlock is a psyker so I'm assuming that each individual model hit will take a perils and that you have to actually hit the farseer themselves to perils them which they will get a ghosthelm save if they have a ghosthelm. None of the warlocks get ghosthelms as an option. You are NOT allowed to fortune the ghosthelm as it is not a regular save. It's the same issue with FnP. You don't get to fortune that either.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

valace2 wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote: They all have ghost helms, and eldrad will probably have his 3++ rerollable from fortune up as well.

I'd have to check my Eldar Codex, but I'm pretty sure only Farseers and not Warlocks have Ghosthelms.

Just checked an you are correct, so a Storm Raven assault would screw their unit up pretty bad

Now I know if a unit of Grey Knights or a IG psyker squad was hit they would only take one PotW, I wonder how that would affect a Farseer an his Warlocks.

No, Mindstrikes are not spell attempts, and thus the Brotherhood of Psykers rules don't count; every model touched by the blast takes a Perils, not just the Justicar.

ditto here we run it as only one perils per mindstrike thats why I was wondering about the Farseer/Warlock combo.

Not that concerned with Mindstrike an ghost helm it still autowounds if it hits and a 3+ from the ghosthelm is beatable.

Apparently the guy I was playing against was under the impression that all of the Warlocks in Eldrad's group had ghosthelms.

That mindstrike missile would have likely been much more effective otherwise...

Godless-Mimicry wrote:No, Mindstrikes are not spell attempts, and thus the Brotherhood of Psykers rules don't count; every model touched by the blast takes a Perils, not just the Justicar.

You obviously haven't read the rules of Brotherhood of Psykers. The unit counts as a psyker, not every model in the unit.
And there's even text that specially mentions what to do in case like this:
"If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame ..."

BRB text is more or less identical.

So Mindstrike cause total of one Perils for each GK Unit with BoP they hit. Not one Perils per model with BoP special rule under the blast.

Luide wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:No, Mindstrikes are not spell attempts, and thus the Brotherhood of Psykers rules don't count; every model touched by the blast takes a Perils, not just the Justicar.

You obviously haven't read the rules of Brotherhood of Psykers. The unit counts as a psyker, not every model in the unit.
And there's even text that specially mentions what to do in case like this:
"If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame ...".

This is a rule for when a unit suffers Perils; you have even stated it as such above. With Mindstrikes the model suffers the Perils, not the unit, so the rule does not apply.

There is a big difference in this game between something that effects a unit and something that effects a model.

EDIT: Just realised this thread is turning into too many rules debates, so I'll digress with my above argument. Unlike many other sites this is actually a very good tactica for Grey Knights, so wouldn't want to see it go to hell with arguing

Necrons aren't too difficult.

I posted my list a bit back. My main playtests have been vs various Necron lists.

Biggest Strengths of Crons:
Wraiths are fast, formidable MEQ killers that are quite durable due to our inherent lack of Str 8.
Scarabs are fast durable threat that eats vehicles easily.
CCBs get to the backfield fast and can really beat-up on dreadnoughts.
Doom Scythes absolutely wreck mech lines and can snipe out Paladins and other expensive models (psycannons, Coteaz).
AV13. Most of our weaponry is Str. 8 or lower.
Flyers, the best ones in the game, with the ability to drop troops while moving.

However, all of those things can be countered pretty well by various GK builds.
Wraiths are great but Misfortune absolutely wrecks them. And most Cron players dont bring psychic defence to boot! The broken grenade set also can tear apart wraiths pretty easily.
Scarabs are eaten alive by Psycannons now with reduced cover. Incinerators on the counter-charge will ruin their days. Purgation squads are nice to get more bodies in another FOC and to get free incinerators.
Flyers and AV13 are countered by MASS Psycannons. If you bring 10+ Psycannons you should be getting 5+ penetrates a turn.
Overlords are a nuisance but bringing hidden Hammers hurts him pretty bad. I like to take one on a non-Knight of the flame in my purifier squads.

Crons are great but I still think GK reign supreme. The amount of shooting you can sport is absolutely absurd (think 100 str. 7 rending shots). A good GK player can pack an answer to everything, infantry, horde, mech without even looking at allies. The Psycannon is a big part of it. It is cheap as dirt almost codex-wide and threatens infantry, MEQ, TEQ and all AV vehicles. Rending, AP2 is HUGE.

Been reading threads on people dropping Plasma death squads like Termicide or Sternguard, etc.

We have our own, super cheap version. The Callidus Assassin.

D6 Str 4 Ap2 hits when arriving, then an Ap 1 template. I realize it's still hard to roll "to wound", but everything hits automatically then gets no armour save. Not bad for 145 points and could even provide a distraction in the following turns.
Ok so it's still not super effective, but it doesn't seem terrible either. edit: depends on your opponent's army's leadership I guess. Useless against Necrons.


I'm thinking about running a non-competitive list with a Callidus, Eversor and Vindicare. Should be fun!

Dunwich wrote:Been reading threads on people dropping Plasma death squads like Termicide or Sternguard, etc.

We have our own, super cheap version. The Callidus Assassin.

D6 Str 4 Ap2 hits when arriving, then an Ap 1 template. I realize it's still hard to roll "to wound", but everything hits automatically then gets no armour save. Not bad for 145 points and could even provide a distraction in the following turns.
Ok so it's still not super effective, but it doesn't seem terrible either. edit: depends on your opponent's army's leadership I guess. Useless against Necrons.


I'm thinking about running a non-competitive list with a Callidus, Eversor and Vindicare. Should be fun!

Don't forget the IG battle psyker combo with the calidus to make her wound essentially on 2+ with her template
It'll basically kill and then force them to run just about everytime.

10+ psycannons are indeed fun and pretty useful but that is definately alot of points to down say a 160 point flier. That's anywhere between 400-600 points of marine firepower. Point for point, those fliers are beast. during those rounds, you'll also be forced to not deal with scarabs or wraiths or other AV13 that may be comming in at you. Nothing says that the enemy will be within 24' range of all your guns either during the first turn or two. (if you are grouping all your guys like that then templates/pie plates, and death rays will hurt alot)

Don't get me wrong, I love pyscannons to death but I don't count of them as my primary AA defenses anymore just because of the volume of fire you will see and how many you may lose before your turn to shoot. All those tesla destructors really hurt not to mention the range as well as target saturation you may be forced to decide between.

I need some mathhammer o theorycrafting with this:

Which is the optimal number of Jokaeros (I read somewhere 2), and the optimal number of psychics (been running with 5 of them).

DakotaBlue wrote:I need some mathhammer o theorycrafting with this:

Which is the optimal number of Jokaeros (I read somewhere 2), and the optimal number of psychics (been running with 5 of them).

2 monkies allow you to get past that rolling a 1 on your enhancement and getting nothing option. You can always throw in 6+ monkies in a unit but it gets freakishly expensive. You also lock yourself out of any enhancements.

3 monkies is also still viable but you do risk losing chance to get 12' on shooting. Also the more monkies you have, the less effective a roll of 5 will be. A 3 and 4 are also only semi useful since you will be in cover most of the time though rending is quite nice but not that predictable.

Rolling a 1 with 2 monkies is probably best scenario given a maxed out group. I would tend to run bigger groups if monkies to get the most buffs out of them.

Have tried 3 and it is still usable though tends to function sorta like an IG HWT (though pricy)

Psykers I like to either do:

6 - so that I get str 8 and Ap1. Ap1 causes +2 on the damage vehicles table. Str 8 can threaten everything includng Av14 not to mention can cause ID and bypass alot of thing's FNP. Only tyrnids do you really need the str 10 ap1 thingies.

8, so that I can the str 10....

or 1-2, so that if I perils it's no big deal and really good as anti-horde. 20 points gets you a 36' bolter pie plate. Kills decently and don't really care if I lose them. Also useful to scare the opponent with how many pie plates go out. (assuming a decent hit, 20 points = 5-6 bolter hits, to get similar with storm bolters, I'd need 7x3= 21 (of points or more - for 6 shots. realistically it's probably closer to 42 points of storm bolter acolytes due to needing 4's to hit. 6 x2 = 12 shots ~ 6 hits) Due to charging distances and wound allocations, forcing your opponent to spread out is actually semi-viable. Less can fit into cover and focus fire can kill more hordes.

DakotaBlue wrote:I need some mathhammer o theorycrafting with this:

Which is the optimal number of Jokaeros (I read somewhere 2), and the optimal number of psychics (been running with 5 of them).

Optimal number of Jokaeros is 2, you can find the math behind at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/449309/4279193.page.
For psykers, I don't really know. I'd either take either 1 (cheap source of large blasts) or 5 (AP2 is nice)

My henchmen build is going to be 5 bolter guys, 5 psyker guys, 2 jokaeros.

I'm thinking in add a techmarine just for a 3+ cover save and a conversion beam.

Thx Luide, btw.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Luide wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:No, Mindstrikes are not spell attempts, and thus the Brotherhood of Psykers rules don't count; every model touched by the blast takes a Perils, not just the Justicar.

You obviously haven't read the rules of Brotherhood of Psykers. The unit counts as a psyker, not every model in the unit.
And there's even text that specially mentions what to do in case like this:
"If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame ...".

This is a rule for when a unit suffers Perils; you have even stated it as such above. With Mindstrikes the model suffers the Perils, not the unit, so the rule does not apply.

There is a big difference in this game between something that effects a unit and something that effects a model.

EDIT: Just realised this thread is turning into too many rules debates, so I'll digress with my above argument. Unlike many other sites this is actually a very good tactica for Grey Knights, so wouldn't want to see it go to hell with arguing

Just want to go back to this real quick... my buddy wanted to table flip when I told him all three of his rune priests will auto perils when they get hit by the missle. He was also enraged that the actual hits will resolve wounds to the front of the squad closest to the raven. Ravens in a GK vs. GK battle will be the dirtiest of fights if you perils every model reguardless of brotherhood. I shudder at the thought. Fastest. Game. Ever. haha

I guess if you're worried about getting perils from mindstrike in GK vs GK you could just spread your units out; it is only a small blast.

It does say it affects every model under the template that is a psyker, I believe. That would lead me to think that it would indeed perils every GK beneath it.

DakotaBlue wrote:I need some mathhammer o theorycrafting with this:

Which is the optimal number of Jokaeros (I read somewhere 2), and the optimal number of psychics (been running with 5 of them).

2 Joks is optimal; anymore and you are losing results on the table, most importantly, the best result on the table, the 12" range, is lost upon adding a 3rd Jok. 1 is ok, just 2 increase your chances of getting a good buff.

As for Psykers, depends on your list. I am trying to run a Karamazov list with two units of 8 (with a Crusader each so the unit isn't wiped by Perils).

sudojoe wrote:

Dunwich wrote:Been reading threads on people dropping Plasma death squads like Termicide or Sternguard, etc.

We have our own, super cheap version. The Callidus Assassin.

D6 Str 4 Ap2 hits when arriving, then an Ap 1 template. I realize it's still hard to roll "to wound", but everything hits automatically then gets no armour save. Not bad for 145 points and could even provide a distraction in the following turns.
Ok so it's still not super effective, but it doesn't seem terrible either. edit: depends on your opponent's army's leadership I guess. Useless against Necrons.


I'm thinking about running a non-competitive list with a Callidus, Eversor and Vindicare. Should be fun!

Don't forget the IG battle psyker combo with the calidus to make her wound essentially on 2+ with her template
It'll basically kill and then force them to run just about everytime.

10+ psycannons are indeed fun and pretty useful but that is definately alot of points to down say a 160 point flier. That's anywhere between 400-600 points of marine firepower. Point for point, those fliers are beast. during those rounds, you'll also be forced to not deal with scarabs or wraiths or other AV13 that may be comming in at you. Nothing says that the enemy will be within 24' range of all your guns either during the first turn or two. (if you are grouping all your guys like that then templates/pie plates, and death rays will hurt alot)

Don't get me wrong, I love pyscannons to death but I don't count of them as my primary AA defenses anymore just because of the volume of fire you will see and how many you may lose before your turn to shoot. All those tesla destructors really hurt not to mention the range as well as target saturation you may be forced to decide between.

It shouldn't take 10 Psycannons to down 1 flyer. If you can show me a better AA weapon in the GK codex. Go right ahead. The psyfleman are just as susceptible, if not more, to flyers. The only real AA options for GK are the Aegis/Allied IG or massing Psycannons. The Psycannons are a great choice with the Aegis. Investing points in a detachment is more difficult for GK due to the high cost of many of our units. If you are fielding ~70-80 Str. 7 shots you will down flyers immediately.

Crons are tough but I think people are having a knee-jerk reaction to how awesome they are. So far I have been a little unimpressed with flyers. I also think that Wraiths got a little weaker (harder to allocate). The change to night-fighting has been huge for me too. Before it was a big issue and now it barely effects the way I play.

daedalus-templarius wrote:I guess if you're worried about getting perils from mindstrike in GK vs GK you could just spread your units out; it is only a small blast.

It does say it affects every model under the template that is a psyker, I believe. That would lead me to think that it would indeed perils every GK beneath it.

Ah, but normal GK models are not Psykers themselves. GK Units with BoP are considered to be a single Psyker and have special rules on how to handle attacks that target Psykers, like Mindstrikes do.
If normal GK models were Psykers, you'd see Culexus Assassin in every army as you'd easily get Animus Speculum to be Assault 12+ weapon without even trying.

But back on track: I've personally found that the free Jink save all Necron vehicles was huge buff for them. Of course it might have something to do with me getting 8 penetrating hits on the AV13 Necron vehicles and opponent making 7 +5 Jink (cover) saves for them...
And I also think that volume of fire is not effective counter for flyers. Unless you have Divination it does take really does take on average 9 Psycannons to drop a single flyer:36 shots @ BS 1 equals 6 hits, which translates to 1 glance and 2 pens against AV11. Increase number to 13 Psycannons if the flyer Evades...
So I'd say Aegis Defence Line or Bastion is a no-brainer choice, unless you already have 2+ Stormravens or use allies to supply you with Skyfire or fliers.

Which warlord trait would you get for Draigo?

Ouch, that reminds me of my last game against Eldar. The Vindicare couldn't kill a viper. My reserves didn't come in until turn 5 and the game ended on turn 4. :( And I couldn't hit anything with a psycannon to save my life. Someone please mathhammer the probability of a game sucking that much! I guess it goes to show you how even the best laid plans can still go wrong. At least the Eldar player didn't have any flyers.

reserves are automatic arrival on turn 4 so math hammer says 0% of it happening

assuming a 4 turns of shooting with say a 5+ jink save = 1/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/81 chance of making all those 5+'s back to back. =1.23%






Automatically Appended Next Post:

DakotaBlue wrote:Which warlord trait would you get for Draigo?

As to warlord traits, they've almost always been kind of useless and really just depends on your army.(which is why there is no topic on this for the first page since it's so army dependent)

General advice though:
so far I've found command traits pretty useless and not really as useful for GK's

Personal traits for draigo can be pretty useful as it can make draigo scoring. Counterattack is also useful for paladins. Furious charge is again useful to kill more stuff though all this may mean is less rolls on psy table for hammerhand
Outflanking paladins is kind of fancy too though as a draigo list, not sure how you can deploy properly though if say you try to outflank like over 50% of your army in points lol

legendary fighter can be useful especially if you pull off draigo by himself to challenge other groups like sergeants. FnP can be redundent though.

Stragetic traits:

1 - useufl on some mats, 2 - sorta useful, as nightfight can help vs some high power shooty armies as you can't get shot at when at 36' if you are not searchlighted or the enemy have night fighting
3- not really useful
4- pretty useful as long as you have some reserves (especially if you want to keep somethings in reserve)
5- again, sorta useful
6 - personally I really like this but only useful if going first and trying to counter the enemy's deployment.

Overall - personal traits seem most useful for draigo.

So guys, tournament on Saturday I might try and hit.

Here is the list I am thinking so far

Draigo

10 Paladins
4 Psycannons, Banner, Apo, Psybolts

2 Paladins
hammer and halberd

Coteaz

Dreadknight
Incinerator & teleporter

Psyrifle Dread

total 1495

My 1750 list is basically the same with another Dread. Figure Coteaz should help vs fliers, hopefully won't run into Eldar.

That's basically what I played last weekend, except for scoring I went with cheap warrior acolytes in multiple squads.

I just came from playing vs wolves.

My list is:

Draigo
Coteaz

10 paladins 4 hammer 4 halberd 1 staff 1 banner, apo, psi ammo, 4 psicannons

10 purifiers 5 halberds 1 hammer 4 psicannons (would change 2 for 2 incinerators)

2 Jokaero, 1 crusader, 4 bolter guys, 5 psy guys

Stormraven assault cannon HB bolters and psi ammo

1850 points.

He had 3 of longfangs (2 with missiles, 1 with lasscannon), 4 guys on wolves, 3x10 marines, one in a pod,

He focused the shooting in the paladins, and managed to kill 4 in 5 turns. The purifiers killed 3 of the wolves guys + 2 wolves, and the one who was left was killed by the paladins. The paladins also killed the marines from the pod, who dropped in my base, and the henchmen hide from everything to get the 3 point of my base.

The raven was flying around killing longfangs, and they managed to make a hull point and another from internal damage that destroyed the HB.

I really really like paladins now, with the support of the raven.

I won 5 to 3 (made first blood and killed the warlord).

Are such small armies working out for people? daedalus, I reckon flyers and TH/SS will run all over your list. Dakota, I like yours more as it has anti-air support and a bit more numbers, but again, do you not find the small numbers a hindrance?

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Are such small units working out for people? daedalus, I reckon flyers and TH/SS will run all over your list. Dakota, I like yours more as it has anti-air support and a bit more numbers, but again, do you not find the small numbers a hindrance?

Keep your units hide, and your hard ones like the paladins contesting and stuff. The purifiers will go running too, but hiding.

If you hide all the time then you aren't going to be able to fight to your full potential. Sure Paladins are great but they can't fight whole armies all the time.

BTW, I mistyped, I meant to say small armies, not small units.