Stoffer wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

LValx wrote:
Ive faced them many times and rarely had much difficulty killing them. Their offensive power isn't that great either. After the initial charge they are only killing a few guys a turn making them susceptible to tarpitting.

With Swords they kill 4-5 on the charge and 3-4 in subsequent turns. The only thing tar-pitting that are hordes, and hordes are dealt with before combat with the Heavy Incinerator. As for the implication that they are easy to take out, not sure where you get that idea. It takes 216 Bolter shots from Marines on average to kill a Dreadknight. That's not easy. Even for much AT weaponry that isn't AP it is tricky; it takes 43.2 shots from Marines firing Missile Launchers to kill him. You really need massed AP2 to take him down.

That's the issue though; rapid fire plasma doesn't seem very rare in this edition. In 2 of 3 games I lost my DK to a single turn of shooting because people go "lol good luck with the 5+ invul" and then just plasma/melta/lascannon him down.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thats why you use the Teliporter to make sure the Dreadknight is able to hide. You are playing with plenty of LoS blocking terrain right?

Luide wrote:
In my experience, it is pretty hard to find places with plenty of terrain that block LOS to model as big as DK. You might have one or two pieces on board, if you're lucky.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:

Luide wrote:
In my experience, it is pretty hard to find places with plenty of terrain that block LOS to model as big as DK. You might have one or two pieces on board, if you're lucky.

Wow, this is totally different than my experience at my FLGS tournaments.

Some boards are terrain light(plains with forest, manufactorum plains), but others have an absolute ton (city, ruins)

Stoffer wrote:

 daedalus-templarius wrote:

Luide wrote:
In my experience, it is pretty hard to find places with plenty of terrain that block LOS to model as big as DK. You might have one or two pieces on board, if you're lucky.

Wow, this is totally different than my experience at my FLGS tournaments.

Some boards are terrain light(plains with forest, manufactorum plains), but others have an absolute ton (city, ruins)

Might be a local thing, but there is virtually no terrain where I play that completely covers the DK. I might be able to get a cover save, but there just isn't any pieces that completely covers the model.

The other part is that the jink means you're virtually guaranteed one turn of being shot at. In a shoot edition, that hurts a good deal (if you're playing against anyone vaguely competent; 5+ invuln isn't exactly a stellar save)

LValx wrote:10 GH with 2 plasma and a plasma wolf guard. That can put him down quickly. And from what I saw at NOVA I think Plasma squads will be much more common now. Prescience is nice with Plasma as it stops you from killing yourself.

Luide wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thats why you use the Teliporter to make sure the Dreadknight is able to hide. You are playing with plenty of LoS blocking terrain right?

In my experience, it is pretty hard to find places with plenty of terrain that block LOS to model as big as DK. You might have one or two pieces on board, if you're lucky.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
To anyone interested, I've begun my tournament report here. It will be up on my blog as well later.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
1999pts.

Stoffer wrote:
Grats LValx!

I played a tournament as well. I went 1-1-1, which I can't be too sad about considering I've played so few games with this list. I drew against a Tau player with a GK allied detachment first. This one was a bit of a heartbreaker because I had the upper hand the entire game. I had some really lucky shooting in turn one which meant he was on the back foot, with virtually no chance of winning. He got a draw which was really the best he could hope for. Second game I beat a guard list with four massive templates, two of them str10 ap1. This was the game I was most worried about, but I won it. Third game I got kited by horde orks, which left me with a mix of slight embarrassment over my own play and respect for my opponents ability to devise a scheme to win a game that's against him from the second we lined up. First turn his lootas shot my Chimera for first blood, from then on he managed to hide enough decimated squad behind terrain that I couldn't catch him. I basically had the choice of moving up slowly or throwing my interceptors/dreadknight forward unsupported, both of which are terrible choices. All in all, if I'd had more practice games, I'm fairly sure I could have gone 2 wins 1 draw. Anyway, I played this list:

HQ

Draigo

Coteaz

Troops

10x Paladins
4x Psycannons
2x Demon hammer
8x Halberds
Psybolt Ammo
Apothecary

5x Henchmen
5x Bolters
Chimera
Searchlights

Heavy Support

Deadnought
2x TL AC
Psybolts
Searchlights

Deadnought
2x TL AC
Psybolts
Searchlights

Nemesis Dreadknight
Personal Teleporter
Heavy Incinerator

Fast Attack

5x Interceptors
1x Incinerator
1x Demon Hammer

Stuff that worked really well:

* Paladin squad. Didn't lose Draigo at any point, closest I came was against the guard player. This squad makes me so happy; I just point at a unit every turn and it goes away.
* Coteaz is awesome. Against IG I had rerolling hits and 4+ invul on the entire squad, against horde orks I had overwatch at full BS. Perfect? You bet.
* 2 Dreads worked well. Didn't really feel the need to ad a third. Grand strategy also meant that I could make them scoring when needed, which worked like a charm.
* Not using the banner. I cut the banner from the list because I figured that I'd realistically spend very little time in CC and that ended up being completely right. I think I had a single round of CC through all three games.

Stuff that didn't work terribly well:

* Dreadknight. I couldn't get the synergy right. I'd either jump him in too early, which meant that he'd get shot to death in no-time (5+ invuln is fairly awful) or hold him back too much. I either need to take him out of the list, or possibly add another, so he has some support. The rest of the list moves so slowly he gets isolated too easily.
* Chimera Henchmen. The only game I lost was due to the Chimera. My opponent shot it, got first blood and basically kited me for 5 turns. Pretty clever play, but in general the Chimera didn't really end up doing much.
* Interceptors. The incinerator is AWESOME, but the squad still suffers from being too small. I dropped it, fired the flamer and then got killed, which I suspect is an issue that doesn't really exist with a 10 man blob. I need to either take this squad out, or add 5 more dudes.

Feedback?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Paladins still get 2 Psycannons in 5-man squads.


The interesting part though is that Paladins no longer have ANY Character, whereas normal Terminator Squads do.

 Fafnir wrote:
The problem with regular terminators is that tactical and assault terminators from the other codecies are just better.

The three main viable lists at the beginning of 6th edition (and end of fifth) were Purifier Spam, Inquisitional Spam, and Paladinstar. Purifier Spam and Inquisitional Spam were head and shoulders the best of the bunch, but at least Paladinstar stood its own ground fairly well.

Now, it's just Purifier and Inquisitional Spam. What's more, these two have their power accentuated without any more competition in the codex.

 Fafnir wrote:
The problem with regular terminators is that tactical and assault terminators from the other codecies are just better.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Glad this change dropped right before a tournament tomorrow, lulz.

10 terminators with Coteaz and Draigo can still probably put a serious hurt on anything, 2 psycannons and 8 S5 Stormbolters; and you can combat squad them.

Guess I can switch out that arm on my Apo/Banner again...

Stoffer wrote:
Yep, Draigowing might just be dead now. I just bought and painted one. Oh well, guess I can make a terminator list now

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Glad this change dropped right before a tournament tomorrow, lulz.

10 terminators with Coteaz and Draigo can still probably put a serious hurt on anything, 2 psycannons and 8 S5 Stormbolters; and you can combat squad them.

Guess I can switch out that arm on my Apo/Banner again...

You'd be better off with Strikes. Strikes have twice as many wounds as Terminators, and fail twice as many saves, making them just as resilient as each other, the difference is Strikes get way more shots. The reason Paladins could compete with Strikes was the LOS, challenges, 2W, and MC weapons.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Wow, and I just finished building and priming my 30 Paladins and Draigo last night. Oh well, at least I can still use them as regular termies I guess. And since I used Draigo's helmet and not his face I can just remove his flag and use him as a generic chapter master. Still pisses me off lots though.

 Fafnir wrote:
The problem with regular terminators is that tactical and assault terminators from the other codecies are just better.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Still bummed about Paladins no longer being characters

Boo hoo...

It's a valid complaint. Paladins may have had their way with unskilled players, but they were never the top dog of 40k, or even their own codex. The nerf they got was way too hard, and now they're absolute garbage.

The new rule has very little impact on Paladins, and my prediction is that you will see more of them in 6th, not less.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Blackmoor makes some good points in the other thread, I'm not going to abandon my paladins quite yet. Just need to play smarter with their placement I guess.

 Grey Templar wrote:
But on the flipside your opponent can't challenge out your valuable armaments, nobody to accept, nobody can get made useless.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
So I asked this in the other thread... but do you really have to allocate all of you 'Look out Sirs' BEFORE you roll any saves?

Draigo is at the front, you have 5 unsaved wounds.

You now have to allocate all of your wounds to Draigo or your paladins using LOS before you can roll any saves...

is this correct? Way to bog down the game.

I was wrong, apparently it was to correct this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/472018.page

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
I've been asking around and everyone is just saying to do it the same way as before since we have the same armor save.

Obviously against AP2, you'd be doing it differently; as in allocating before taking the save, since they have different saves for invulns.

Also, wtf they took away S10 vs Daemons and Psykers from Draigo. Are they going to fething change his 275 point cost after all these changes or what?

Thanks GW, really.

6th Edition FAQ wrote:Page 15 – Shooting Phase, Mixed Saves: Change subheader to “Mixed Saves and Characters”. Change the first sentence to read “If the target unit contains
several different saving throws, or at least one character…”

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Apparently they just really want to slow the game down when you have a character in a group.

I'll just keep doing it the old way until there is more traction on it I guess, seems like a silly change.

berglin wrote:
Why is Draigo nerfed? It says to replace the first sentence of the Titan Sword entry with the new entry, which essentially just clarifies that it is a =sword= and that is =master crafted=.

The way I see it the second sentence that gives him S10 against daemons and psykers is unaffected.

Or am I being dense?

 Kaldor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
But on the flipside your opponent can't challenge out your valuable armaments, nobody to accept, nobody can get made useless.

Although on the flipside of the flipside, if you put a character in with the Paladins they are extremely vulnerable to challenges since they are the only person that can accept.

Blackmoor makes the proposition that Paladins are a shooting unit, and that not being able to shunt wounds around isn't a big deal because there'll still be two models with Psycannons regardless.

But 5 Paladins with 2 psycannons and no upgrades is 315 points. 5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons is 140 points. 10 Purifiers with 4 psycannons are 325 points. Shooting is a Purifiers game, especially when each squad lets you take a 45 point Razorback as well. Purifiers are more vulnerable to shooting, that's true. But now so are Paladins.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just because he says it doesn't make it so. They got nerfed; that's a fact. How that will mean they will be taken more, I will never understand.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just because he says it doesn't make it so. They got nerfed; that's a fact. How that will mean they will be taken more, I will never understand.

Oh, the irony...

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
I guess Draigo's sword didn't get nerfed actually, it does say replace the FIRST sentence.

Welp, off to my tourney with Paladins. Will let you guys know how it goes!

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
I guess Draigo's sword didn't get nerfed actually, it does say replace the FIRST sentence.

Welp, off to my tourney with Paladins. Will let you guys know how it goes!

Lansirill wrote:
So, with the nerf (which I like, the LOS shenanigans were, well, shenanigans) do GKTs now make sense? They certainly look similar to or stronger than basic tactical terminators except for the lack of an option to take a CML. I'm curious because I was just about to pull the trigger on buying a Draigo-wing army when I found out about the new FAQs. Now I'm not so sure it makes sense, especially since I have a solid chunk of a decent Deathwing army ready to go once the new DA codex drops. (Unless they make Deathwing suck. That could certainly happen.)

 jy2 wrote:
This reminds me of when the new Sisters of Battle codex came out in White Dwarf. People were proclaiming that sisters nerfed hugely and that they were dead. Well, fast forwards about 1 year later. We have Battle Sisters placing 4th at the Golden Throne GT. 2 sisters players also placed in the Top16 at Nova, including 3rd place. In short, it wasn't so bad for Sister armies as players were able to find builds that not only made up for their army's shortcomings, but that also made them competitive as well.

This is exactly the type of panic that I am seeing with the GK paladins. Honestly, the world isn't falling. Paladins are still a decent selection. As a matter of fact, I still think that they are better than regular GKT terminators. The trick is to surround them with good units the complement them and their shortcomings.

--- mini-rant coming ---

Honestly, the pre-FAQ wound allocation with LOS and every model being a character was just broken. I didn't think that was GW's intent on how they should be played and I am glad GW did something to reign them back inline with how I think they were supposed to play. Wound allocation was just breaking the game and turning it into an arms race to see who had the best combos (and this is coming from a competitive player like me). It was also driving out a lot of players who got discourages at these combos and what they perceived to be "broken". IMO, this became a necessary nerf to make the game more balanced. They were trying to get away from wound allocation shenanigans in 6th, but their pre-FAQ 6E rules only made it more abusive.

--- end of mini-rant ---

Anyways, you need to compensate for the nerf to LOS and wound allocation by playing a more tactical game. Now, placement of models within the unit matters. You just have to use your brains more when running Draigowing rather than to run it like the brainless monster it once was. And the lack of characters in the unit itself just makes it a more level playing field with all the other armies in the game. Get used to it.

 jy2 wrote:

--- mini-rant coming ---

Honestly, the pre-FAQ wound allocation with LOS and every model being a character was just broken. I didn't think that was GW's intent on how they should be played and I am glad GW did something to reign them back inline with how I think they were supposed to play. Wound allocation was just breaking the game and turning it into an arms race to see who had the best combos (and this is coming from a competitive player like me). It was also driving out a lot of players who got discourages at these combos and what they perceived to be "broken". IMO, this became a necessary nerf to make the game more balanced. They were trying to get away from wound allocation shenanigans in 6th, but their pre-FAQ 6E rules only made it more abusive.

--- end of mini-rant ---

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
And similarly just because people overreact at times doesn't mean it is always an overreaction. Paladins aren't a bad buy, but without the rules they had going for them, too many other options become better choices rather than just alternative choices.

And yes, Paladins are most definitely still better than regular GKT, but the thing is most things in the Codex are and always were better than GKT..

whoadirty wrote:
Does the Apothecary become more valuable with the LOS changes?

valace2 wrote:
I don't wanna play anything under 2k anymore.

Coyote81 wrote:
Don't the paladins have the brotherhood of psykers rule and therefore when hit by the template only suffer one perils roll. I seem to rememeber that is how it's suppose to work.

whoadirty wrote:
Does the Apothecary become more valuable with the LOS changes?

 jy2 wrote:
--- mini-rant coming ---

Honestly, the pre-FAQ wound allocation with LOS and every model being a character was just broken. I didn't think that was GW's intent on how they should be played and I am glad GW did something to reign them back inline with how I think they were supposed to play. Wound allocation was just breaking the game and turning it into an arms race to see who had the best combos (and this is coming from a competitive player like me). It was also driving out a lot of players who got discourages at these combos and what they perceived to be "broken". IMO, this became a necessary nerf to make the game more balanced. They were trying to get away from wound allocation shenanigans in 6th, but their pre-FAQ 6E rules only made it more abusive.

--- end of mini-rant ---

 l0k1 wrote:
give the a Librarian with either codex powers or Divination powers and you still have a very mean unit.

 l0k1 wrote:
I also think we should stop thinking of Paladins as "let's make these troops and spam" and more like "this is a nice hard hitting/shooting elite unit that we take 1 or two until of".

Coyote81 wrote:Don't the paladins have the brotherhood of psykers rule and therefore when hit by the template only suffer one perils roll. I seem to rememeber that is how it's suppose to work.

jy2 wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:
Don't the paladins have the brotherhood of psykers rule and therefore when hit by the template only suffer one perils roll. I seem to rememeber that is how it's suppose to work.

This is correct. When hit by mindstrike missiles, only 1 model in a BoP unit suffers Perils (either the justicar or 1 random member), not everyone under the template.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:Don't the paladins have the brotherhood of psykers rule and therefore when hit by the template only suffer one perils roll. I seem to rememeber that is how it's suppose to work.

jy2 wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:
Don't the paladins have the brotherhood of psykers rule and therefore when hit by the template only suffer one perils roll. I seem to rememeber that is how it's suppose to work.

This is correct. When hit by mindstrike missiles, only 1 model in a BoP unit suffers Perils (either the justicar or 1 random member), not everyone under the template.

This is what I said, however it was ruled that each unit that is underneath the template receives a perils. Therefore I took about 6 perils off the first set of 2 mindstrikes.

If there is some larger tourney that has this in their faq I could show, that would be cool.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:

jy2 wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:
Don't the paladins have the brotherhood of psykers rule and therefore when hit by the template only suffer one perils roll. I seem to rememeber that is how it's suppose to work.

This is correct. When hit by mindstrike missiles, only 1 model in a BoP unit suffers Perils (either the justicar or 1 random member), not everyone under the template.

This is what I said, however it was ruled that each unit that is underneath the template receives a perils. Therefore I took about 6 perils off the first set of 2 mindstrikes.
If there is some larger tourney that has this in their faq I could show, that would be cool.

 Goat wrote:
Is anyone else salty that Abby went back to AP2 while Draigo is still stuck at AP3 status? I'd be happy if he has to strike at Init. 1 just to have our freaking chapter master be able to merc anything he fights...

by right of fluff we shouldn't even be able to use Draigo.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
That was based solely on your draws though. Start facing a lot of AP2 weaponry though and it makes a huge difference. Even mroe still, face Guard or DE and see your Paladins melt to AP2 ID weapons, which they before had a 50% chance to pass on to Draigo.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
That was based solely on your draws though. Start facing a lot of AP2 weaponry though and it makes a huge difference. Even mroe still, face Guard or DE and see your Paladins melt to AP2 ID weapons, which they before had a 50% chance to pass on to Draigo.

schadenfreude wrote:Against guard Draigo can take point and los non id wounds to unwounded paladins.

schadenfreude wrote:Deep striking solodins with a hammer are a menace to msu armies, and a scoring unit. With a 2+ armor save they can safely ds into terrain. Also being a 55 point unit they can afford to go to ground when shot at by a lance/lascannon. 3 s10 hammer attacks on the charge is enough to break many units.

schadenfreude wrote:Also many draigowing builds already include a librarian or xenos inquisitor for a plasma siphon, rad, and psych grenades. That's a 2nd ic that can los on a 2+.

 Goat wrote:
Is anyone else salty that Abby went back to AP2 while Draigo is still stuck at AP3 status? I'd be happy if he has to strike at Init. 1 just to have our freaking chapter master be able to merc anything he fights...

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Against guard Draigo can take point and los non id wounds to unwounded paladins.

It's not that simple anymore. He can only be at the front to one facing, so it is very easy for the enemy to move to make sure the Paladins are the closest models, and that's where the LOS is sorely missed. Both the armies suggested (DE and IG) can do this ridiculously easily, and they are just the more extreme examples.

schadenfreude wrote:Deep striking solodins with a hammer are a menace to msu armies, and a scoring unit. With a 2+ armor save they can safely ds into terrain. Also being a 55 point unit they can afford to go to ground when shot at by a lance/lascannon. 3 s10 hammer attacks on the charge is enough to break many units.

A menace? Really? With overwatch and more than likely a vast outnumbering if a unit can't beat a single Paladin on the charge then it's not worth taking. You also are claiming that he alone can break most units but you are ignoring that most units in this game have ATSKNF, making it meaningless.

schadenfreude wrote:Also many draigowing builds already include a librarian or xenos inquisitor for a plasma siphon, rad, and psych grenades. That's a 2nd ic that can los on a 2+.

Not the competitive ones. Not that full on Draigowing was doing very good at any tournaments in 6th anyway, but the ones that had a chance didn't spend so much points on unnecessary items hat were essentially just overkill. As for buying them now, maybe they will help, but once again its someone saying, 'well if you spend this many more points they are just as good as before', which in itself says they aren't as good as they used to be at all.

As for the second LOS thing, it makes no difference to the AP2 ID problem, because that's just even more points for that one Dark Lance to take with ease.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think if the Titansword is to remain AP3, they should at least say its a real Nemisis Force Sword and allow Draigo a 2+ invuln in melee.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Guess what...the unit still has 2 wounds per model. That's a very effective defense against volume of attacks (just ask TH/SS players how effective that is) and an effective defense against plasma (it takes 3 plasma wounds to drop 1 paladin with a 5+ invo). Paladins are still an effective unit with solid melee and shooting ability what is it 8 psycannons on the move with 2 rerolls to hit per 325 points?

 Dunwich wrote:
RE: Draigo and his Titansword.
I think it is appropriate. He is the anvil, not the hammer. Besides, it's not like he needs AP2 for fighting Daemons, which fluff dictates are his usual enemies.

 Stoffer wrote:
I don't think there is any doubt that they took a nerf, but you have to move them differently. You'd basically have to have draigo in front, in base to base contact with three "redshirts" behind him. Everytime one of them dies, you move another one up to keep a 6 point wound pool of Paladins that aren't essential behind him. The formation might be a bit more wonky and slender, but I'm going to give it a go at our GT here.

schadenfreude wrote:
Is a single paladin a menace to most units? Well let's define most.

If it has an AV value but doesn't have a DCCW then yes. That's pretty much everything except a standard dreadnought including the BA Cuisinart.
Is it a troops choice? If the answer is yes then most troops can't handle a single paladin, especially now that sergeants with a power fist have gone out of style. Some troops have melta, but even the dreaded melta vets only have a 15/54 (27.7%) chance of killing the paladin with 3 snap fired melta guns. 1/6 to hit* 5/6 to wound *2/3 to fail armor save = 10/108=5/54 then*3shots=15/54= 27.7%. It's less than 10% per melta gun. Sure 3 melta guns can melt 1 paladin out in the open, but they are should be focused on the main squad of paladins.

Is it a non AV heavy support choice? Long fangs, lootas, dev squads, TFC all dead.

For 55 points a single paladin is a mean unit to deepstrike into an opponent's backfield.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:
I don't think there is any doubt that they took a nerf, but you have to move them differently. You'd basically have to have draigo in front, in base to base contact with three "redshirts" behind him. Everytime one of them dies, you move another one up to keep a 6 point wound pool of Paladins that aren't essential behind him. The formation might be a bit more wonky and slender, but I'm going to give it a go at our GT here.

Have fun eating blast templates with that formation.

Ah hell, that was a bit snappy. I'm sorry. I'm just pissed off about the whole affair.

moving ALL the wounds around on 4+s should really only be reliable half of the time.

 felixcat wrote:
I'm thankful my list was barely scratched - other than Draigo's titansword. I actually got in a match against Daemons with it ...

-Do the Monster Mash-
HQ: 1 Lord Kaldor Draigo, 275 (GK)
HQ: 1 Malleus Inquisitor (TDA. Psycannon, Prescience) 110 GK
HQ: 1 Avatar of Khaine 155 (EL)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 15 Storm Guardians (2 Flamers, Spiritseer, Conceal, Singing Spear) 173 (EL)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Dreadnought (Dual TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition) 135
Heavy Support: 1 Wraithlord (2 Flamer, Wraithsword, Shuricannon) 110 (EL)
-1998-

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Going to try this next game

Draigo
Coteaz
5 Paladins, Banner + Apo
1 Paladin (for deepstriking goodness)
Dreadknight w/ Tele, Incin, Sword
Dreadknight w/ Tele, Incin, Sword
Psyrifle Dread

madness, I know. But after seeing how little my Strike squad and their Razorback accomplished in the tournament, I think I'll chance it

I love Dreadknights, but I can't stand them without the teleporter pack. Especially with hammer and anvil deployment when your opponent hugs the back of their table edge

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:

moving ALL the wounds around on 4+s should really only be reliable half of the time.

But you could keep the models far enough apart only one or two would be clipped by any one small blast and then still have a 50% chance of shunting the wound to any other model.

Now with the 'three man touching Draigo' system rather than one or two for Draigo to take or to get LOS!'d, there'll be 4. So it's twice as bad.

And if they got shot from an angle where Draigo wasn't closest, he could still LOS! ID hits on 4+ for his squad. No more. Now it's a 5+ invun rather than half the time being a 3+ and 5+ FNP. Much worse.

Not that I'm really moaning (though I do thing removing character status has hurt paladins a lot and enough to make them at best semi-competitive), the 40K rules regularly degrade certain choices and people always complain -- I think here though it's the startling shift between the pre FAQ rules making paladins a sound choice to post FAQ making them a questionable one, and that very very soon after the change from 5th to 6th that had itself required a little mental adjustment (though not in a bad way by any means). Unexpected negative change is never pleasant.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


If you don't get perfect match-ups I can't see this doing good at all. There are too few models, making it easy for the enemy to mitigate any threats, and you will struggle with objectives quite often I reckon.

 Stoffer wrote:

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:

moving ALL the wounds around on 4+s should really only be reliable half of the time.

But you could keep the models far enough apart only one or two would be clipped by any one small blast and then still have a 50% chance of shunting the wound to any other model.

Now with the 'three man touching Draigo' system rather than one or two for Draigo to take or to get LOS!'d, there'll be 4. So it's twice as bad.

And if they got shot from an angle where Draigo wasn't closest, he could still LOS! ID hits on 4+ for his squad. No more. Now it's a 5+ invun rather than half the time being a 3+ and 5+ FNP. Much worse.

Not that I'm really moaning (though I do thing removing character status has hurt paladins a lot and enough to make them at best semi-competitive), the 40K rules regularly degrade certain choices and people always complain -- I think here though it's the startling shift between the pre FAQ rules making paladins a sound choice to post FAQ making them a questionable one, and that very very soon after the change from 5th to 6th that had itself required a little mental adjustment (though not in a bad way by any means). Unexpected negative change is never pleasant.

Sure, it's a nerf but most of the issues, like getting flanked, templates etc didn't suddenly appear, they were already the weakpoint of Paldins. It just got increased a bit and while it makes it less efficient, I'm not entirely sure the sky is falling. I'm also not at all worried about small templates, I can move around those fine, my big issue was always a high number of wounds from large blasts.

Lanlaorn wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Is a single paladin a menace to most units? Well let's define most.

If it has an AV value but doesn't have a DCCW then yes. That's pretty much everything except a standard dreadnought including the BA Cuisinart.
Is it a troops choice? If the answer is yes then most troops can't handle a single paladin, especially now that sergeants with a power fist have gone out of style. Some troops have melta, but even the dreaded melta vets only have a 15/54 (27.7%) chance of killing the paladin with 3 snap fired melta guns. 1/6 to hit* 5/6 to wound *2/3 to fail armor save = 10/108=5/54 then*3shots=15/54= 27.7%. It's less than 10% per melta gun. Sure 3 melta guns can melt 1 paladin out in the open, but they are should be focused on the main squad of paladins.

Is it a non AV heavy support choice? Long fangs, lootas, dev squads, TFC all dead.

For 55 points a single paladin is a mean unit to deepstrike into an opponent's backfield.

You realize the Paladin can't charge from deep strike right? Disregarding the fact that all these units can just move away from the Paladin while shooting him to death and he'd need some unlikely charge length or a really lucky deep strike scatter to do anything about that, he most likely just won't survive the turn he drops in. Like the three meltaguns you describe... why on earth are you calculating them as overwatch snapshots. They get those too if he ever manages to charge, but first the Paladin drops in and they get a proper round of shooting at him before he attempts to trounce them in combat.

The only way I see this having merit at all is if the Paladin's Holocaust would do serious damage to some horde unit, otherwise you're just throwing 55 points away to make an opponent waste a turn or two of shooting and maybe move a little.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:

moving ALL the wounds around on 4+s should really only be reliable half of the time.

But you could keep the models far enough apart only one or two would be clipped by any one small blast and then still have a 50% chance of shunting the wound to any other model.

Now with the 'three man touching Draigo' system rather than one or two for Draigo to take or to get LOS!'d, there'll be 4. So it's twice as bad.

And if they got shot from an angle where Draigo wasn't closest, he could still LOS! ID hits on 4+ for his squad. No more. Now it's a 5+ invun rather than half the time being a 3+ and 5+ FNP. Much worse.

Not that I'm really moaning (though I do thing removing character status has hurt paladins a lot and enough to make them at best semi-competitive), the 40K rules regularly degrade certain choices and people always complain -- I think here though it's the startling shift between the pre FAQ rules making paladins a sound choice to post FAQ making them a questionable one, and that very very soon after the change from 5th to 6th that had itself required a little mental adjustment (though not in a bad way by any means). Unexpected negative change is never pleasant.

Sure, it's a nerf but most of the issues, like getting flanked, templates etc didn't suddenly appear, they were already the weakpoint of Paldins. It just got increased a bit and while it makes it less efficient, I'm not entirely sure the sky is falling. I'm also not at all worried about small templates, I can move around those fine, my big issue was always a high number of wounds from large blasts.

Perfect example of what I outlined above; who ever said it was? Saying Paladins are now no longer as good a choice as Purifiers or Strikes isn't saying anything of the sort, as the army still has all the tools to deal with anything.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Is a single paladin a menace to most units? Well let's define most.

If it has an AV value but doesn't have a DCCW then yes. That's pretty much everything except a standard dreadnought including the BA Cuisinart.
Is it a troops choice? If the answer is yes then most troops can't handle a single paladin, especially now that sergeants with a power fist have gone out of style. Some troops have melta, but even the dreaded melta vets only have a 15/54 (27.7%) chance of killing the paladin with 3 snap fired melta guns. 1/6 to hit* 5/6 to wound *2/3 to fail armor save = 10/108=5/54 then*3shots=15/54= 27.7%. It's less than 10% per melta gun. Sure 3 melta guns can melt 1 paladin out in the open, but they are should be focused on the main squad of paladins.

Is it a non AV heavy support choice? Long fangs, lootas, dev squads, TFC all dead.

For 55 points a single paladin is a mean unit to deepstrike into an opponent's backfield.

You realize the Paladin can't charge from deep strike right? Disregarding the fact that all these units can just move away from the Paladin while shooting him to death and he'd need some unlikely charge length or a really lucky deep strike scatter to do anything about that, he most likely just won't survive the turn he drops in. Like the three meltaguns you describe... why on earth are you calculating them as overwatch snapshots. They get those too if he ever manages to charge, but first the Paladin drops in and they get a proper round of shooting at him before he attempts to trounce them in combat.

The only way I see this having merit at all is if the Paladin's Holocaust would do serious damage to some horde unit, otherwise you're just throwing 55 points away to make an opponent waste a turn or two of shooting and maybe move a little.

It's an adaptive tactic. If a manticore or backfield hs or troops choice is unguarded go for it. If melta vets are closing in around the paladin death star keep a solodin on the flank not guarded by draigo. If they shoot the solodon max damage from 3 melta is 1 paladin. If the solodin is in any type of area terrain he has a 50/50 of surviving melta vets after going to ground. If the melta vets ignore the solodin they risk a charge.

I guess it's all about perspective. Most of my armies have a squishy backfield, and I'm better prepared to deal with a single 200 point deep striking menace than say 3 solodins.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Overall all I'm seeing are cases of 'well if the opponent makes this mistake' or 'if I spend way too much points on several IC's' or 'they are still better then other Codex Terminators', none of which is compelling in the slightest. Anyone around this thread in the last few weeks should know how much I love Paladins, so this isn't a biased approach, but I am willing to accept the fact that they took quite a tumble. There were two types of GK lists before; the PA kind that was all about maximum shooting damage, and the TDA kind where it was about the slow and steady approach while surviving an onslaught; the latter of these two is now no longer that viable as Paladins can no longer reliably survive anything that is thrown at them. They are still ridiculously survivable against a lot of stuff in the game, but they have fallen fully into the RPS match-up trap now to be an optimal tournament build; it is the same reason you don't see mech SPAM anymore, because in a TAC environment you don't take lists with auto-lose pairings. In a list that is otherwise heavy on bodies, then taking a unit of 5 with a standard set-up is still ok I reckon, as it is still a threat that has to be taken seriously, but is not so important to the army that you'll cry about it when DE or IG melt them into goo.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Is a single paladin a menace to most units? Well let's define most.

If it has an AV value but doesn't have a DCCW then yes. That's pretty much everything except a standard dreadnought including the BA Cuisinart.
Is it a troops choice? If the answer is yes then most troops can't handle a single paladin, especially now that sergeants with a power fist have gone out of style. Some troops have melta, but even the dreaded melta vets only have a 15/54 (27.7%) chance of killing the paladin with 3 snap fired melta guns. 1/6 to hit* 5/6 to wound *2/3 to fail armor save = 10/108=5/54 then*3shots=15/54= 27.7%. It's less than 10% per melta gun. Sure 3 melta guns can melt 1 paladin out in the open, but they are should be focused on the main squad of paladins.

Is it a non AV heavy support choice? Long fangs, lootas, dev squads, TFC all dead.

For 55 points a single paladin is a mean unit to deepstrike into an opponent's backfield.

You realize the Paladin can't charge from deep strike right? Disregarding the fact that all these units can just move away from the Paladin while shooting him to death and he'd need some unlikely charge length or a really lucky deep strike scatter to do anything about that, he most likely just won't survive the turn he drops in. Like the three meltaguns you describe... why on earth are you calculating them as overwatch snapshots. They get those too if he ever manages to charge, but first the Paladin drops in and they get a proper round of shooting at him before he attempts to trounce them in combat.

The only way I see this having merit at all is if the Paladin's Holocaust would do serious damage to some horde unit, otherwise you're just throwing 55 points away to make an opponent waste a turn or two of shooting and maybe move a little.

It's an adaptive tactic. If a manticore or backfield hs or troops choice is unguarded go for it. If melta vets are closing in around the paladin death star keep a solodin on the flank not guarded by draigo. If they shoot the solodon max damage from 3 melta is 1 paladin. If the solodin is in any type of area terrain he has a 50/50 of surviving melta vets after going to ground. If the melta vets ignore the solodin they risk a charge.

I guess it's all about perspective. Most of my armies have a squishy backfield, and I'm better prepared to deal with a single 200 point deep striking menace than say 3 solodins.

It is about perspective, which is why I don't get your arguments. These arguments are all under the assumption that the opponent will do something stupid. With knowledge that a Paladin in waiting in DS no half-decent opponent will leave his Manticore unguarded. No half-decent opponent is going to put Melta Vets anywhere near Paladins.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Overall all I'm seeing are cases of 'well if the opponent makes this mistake' or 'if I spend way too much points on several IC's' or 'they are still better then other Codex Terminators', none of which is compelling in the slightest. Anyone around this thread in the last few weeks should know how much I love Paladins, so this isn't a biased approach, but I am willing to accept the fact that they took quite a tumble. There were two types of GK lists before; the PA kind that was all about maximum shooting damage, and the TDA kind where it was about the slow and steady approach while surviving an onslaught; the latter of these two is now no longer that viable as Paladins can no longer reliably survive anything that is thrown at them. They are still ridiculously survivable against a lot of stuff in the game, but they have fallen fully into the RPS match-up trap now to be an optimal tournament build; it is the same reason you don't see mech SPAM anymore, because in a TAC environment you don't take lists with auto-lose pairings. In a list that is otherwise heavy on bodies, then taking a unit of 5 with a standard set-up is still ok I reckon, as it is still a threat that has to be taken seriously, but is not so important to the army that you'll cry about it when DE or IG melt them into goo.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Lanlaorn wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Is a single paladin a menace to most units? Well let's define most.

If it has an AV value but doesn't have a DCCW then yes. That's pretty much everything except a standard dreadnought including the BA Cuisinart.
Is it a troops choice? If the answer is yes then most troops can't handle a single paladin, especially now that sergeants with a power fist have gone out of style. Some troops have melta, but even the dreaded melta vets only have a 15/54 (27.7%) chance of killing the paladin with 3 snap fired melta guns. 1/6 to hit* 5/6 to wound *2/3 to fail armor save = 10/108=5/54 then*3shots=15/54= 27.7%. It's less than 10% per melta gun. Sure 3 melta guns can melt 1 paladin out in the open, but they are should be focused on the main squad of paladins.

Is it a non AV heavy support choice? Long fangs, lootas, dev squads, TFC all dead.

For 55 points a single paladin is a mean unit to deepstrike into an opponent's backfield.

You realize the Paladin can't charge from deep strike right? Disregarding the fact that all these units can just move away from the Paladin while shooting him to death and he'd need some unlikely charge length or a really lucky deep strike scatter to do anything about that, he most likely just won't survive the turn he drops in. Like the three meltaguns you describe... why on earth are you calculating them as overwatch snapshots. They get those too if he ever manages to charge, but first the Paladin drops in and they get a proper round of shooting at him before he attempts to trounce them in combat.

The only way I see this having merit at all is if the Paladin's Holocaust would do serious damage to some horde unit, otherwise you're just throwing 55 points away to make an opponent waste a turn or two of shooting and maybe move a little.

It's an adaptive tactic. If a manticore or backfield hs or troops choice is unguarded go for it. If melta vets are closing in around the paladin death star keep a solodin on the flank not guarded by draigo. If they shoot the solodon max damage from 3 melta is 1 paladin. If the solodin is in any type of area terrain he has a 50/50 of surviving melta vets after going to ground. If the melta vets ignore the solodin they risk a charge.

I guess it's all about perspective. Most of my armies have a squishy backfield, and I'm better prepared to deal with a single 200 point deep striking menace than say 3 solodins.

It is about perspective, which is why I don't get your arguments. These arguments are all under the assumption that the opponent will do something stupid. With knowledge that a Paladin in waiting in DS no half-decent opponent will leave his Manticore unguarded. No half-decent opponent is going to put Melta Vets anywhere near Paladins.

If 155 points of melta vets sits back to guard a manticore on one flank and instead of melting face the solodin worked, redeploy elsewhere. I've had great results from marbo melta bombing vehicles after his demo charge hits or whiffs. A solodin is much less expensive than a decked out lone wolf. I'll be the 1st to admit it's not an easy user friendly unit, but it also goes against the current meta so opponents won't have much experience dealing with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One last word on the solodin that i think is the elephant in the room. They are a deep striking cheap troops choice in a game where the objective v kp ratio went from 2-1 to 5-1. 6th ed is objective based, and there are no other gk troops solutions in the solodin's price range that offers a 2+ save for target saturation.

One last word on the solodin that i think is the elephant in the room. They are a deep striking cheap troops choice in a game where the objective v kp ratio went from 2-1 to 5-1. 6th ed is objective based, and there are no other gk troops solutions in the solodin's price range that offers a 2+ save for target saturation.

valace2 wrote:
If I were to Run Draigo an his Paladins I would do something like this.

Belial w/ TH/SS 130pts

5x Upgraded Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS, Cyclone, and Apothecary 265pts
5x Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS and Cyclone 235pts

Draigo 275pts

10 paladins w/ 4 psycannon, apothecary, banner, stave, 4 hammers, 4 halberds or swords - 750

Dreadknight w/ Teleporter, Incinerator, an Greatsword 260pts

4 extremely hard scoring units, for a 1999 game I have around 85pts left over I dunno what I would do with them. I might even drop the Dreadknight add Coteaz to buff the Paladins and Draigo an add some weaklings.

 Goat wrote:

valace2 wrote:
If I were to Run Draigo an his Paladins I would do something like this.

Belial w/ TH/SS 130pts

5x Upgraded Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS, Cyclone, and Apothecary 265pts
5x Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS and Cyclone 235pts

Draigo 275pts

10 paladins w/ 4 psycannon, apothecary, banner, stave, 4 hammers, 4 halberds or swords - 750

Dreadknight w/ Teleporter, Incinerator, an Greatsword 260pts

4 extremely hard scoring units, for a 1999 game I have around 85pts left over I dunno what I would do with them. I might even drop the Dreadknight add Coteaz to buff the Paladins and Draigo an add some weaklings.

I've become a huge fan of running warrior acolytes as just some goobers to camp a home objective and keep going to ground behind some cover if my Opponenet so chooses to waste shots on those goons. This leaves my infinitly more valuable fighting force free to pwn

valace2 wrote:
If I were to Run Draigo an his Paladins I would do something like this.

Belial w/ TH/SS 130pts

5x Upgraded Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS, Cyclone, and Apothecary 265pts
5x Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS and Cyclone 235pts

Draigo 275pts

10 paladins w/ 4 psycannon, apothecary, banner, stave, 4 hammers, 4 halberds or swords - 750

Dreadknight w/ Teleporter, Incinerator, an Greatsword 260pts

4 extremely hard scoring units, for a 1999 game I have around 85pts left over I dunno what I would do with them. I might even drop the Dreadknight add Coteaz to buff the Paladins and Draigo an add some weaklings.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:

valace2 wrote:
If I were to Run Draigo an his Paladins I would do something like this.

Belial w/ TH/SS 130pts

5x Upgraded Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS, Cyclone, and Apothecary 265pts
5x Deathwing w/ 4x TH/SS and Cyclone 235pts

Draigo 275pts

10 paladins w/ 4 psycannon, apothecary, banner, stave, 4 hammers, 4 halberds or swords - 750

Dreadknight w/ Teleporter, Incinerator, an Greatsword 260pts

4 extremely hard scoring units, for a 1999 game I have around 85pts left over I dunno what I would do with them. I might even drop the Dreadknight add Coteaz to buff the Paladins and Draigo an add some weaklings.

This sounds fun; isn't there some online codex for DA somewhere?

Or is it just the original codex, but heavily FAQd?

Hard to fit into 1500pts, heh.

 sudojoe wrote:
with 4 psycannons, you can always combat squad them out and leave them in ruins as a serious fire platform though casualties are gonna be rough. The other 5 with their assault weapons will then forge ahead.

I just wish I had some better saves for the 4 psycannons. Fearless really hurts me as I really like to GtG with ATSKNF in my vanilla lists. 2+ cover save devesator teams have really started to change my lists

 sudojoe wrote:
when you rally with ATSKNF, you get your 3' rally move as well as your normal move and shoot as normal. You do not get the penalty for recovering from GtG which is snap fire only. Fearless unfortunately prevents you from GtG'ing.

Hiding behind an Aegis gives your marines (i.e. long fangs or other devestators) a 2+ cover save with essentially no backdraws on your turn as they auto rally as well.

You can do similarly with purgation squad but I find I still depend alot from Dreads for my long range fire power or they compete with DK's which I tend to like alot more now vs my vanilla list which is no longer using the land raider or pedator and has just a whirlwind for the barrage template (which if dies, I usually don't care but boy it can mess up some guys). The techmarine with the big guns (thunderfire) can also GtG similarly.

MadmanMSU wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
when you rally with ATSKNF, you get your 3' rally move as well as your normal move and shoot as normal. You do not get the penalty for recovering from GtG which is snap fire only. Fearless unfortunately prevents you from GtG'ing.

Hiding behind an Aegis gives your marines (i.e. long fangs or other devestators) a 2+ cover save with essentially no backdraws on your turn as they auto rally as well.

You can do similarly with purgation squad but I find I still depend alot from Dreads for my long range fire power or they compete with DK's which I tend to like alot more now vs my vanilla list which is no longer using the land raider or pedator and has just a whirlwind for the barrage template (which if dies, I usually don't care but boy it can mess up some guys). The techmarine with the big guns (thunderfire) can also GtG similarly.

You need to explain this to me because I'm just not getting it.

1) It says in the BRB that GtG gives +1 to cover save....meaning marines would get a 3++, not 2++, behind an Aegis.

2) I can't find anywhere in the book that says you can recover from GtG automatically with ATSKNF. Nowhere does it say that you rally to recover from GtG. There's no leadership test or morale check...you just lose the ability to move and shoot normally, so how does ATSKNF protect you from that?

 sudojoe wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
when you rally with ATSKNF, you get your 3' rally move as well as your normal move and shoot as normal. You do not get the penalty for recovering from GtG which is snap fire only. Fearless unfortunately prevents you from GtG'ing.

Hiding behind an Aegis gives your marines (i.e. long fangs or other devestators) a 2+ cover save with essentially no backdraws on your turn as they auto rally as well.

You can do similarly with purgation squad but I find I still depend alot from Dreads for my long range fire power or they compete with DK's which I tend to like alot more now vs my vanilla list which is no longer using the land raider or pedator and has just a whirlwind for the barrage template (which if dies, I usually don't care but boy it can mess up some guys). The techmarine with the big guns (thunderfire) can also GtG similarly.

You need to explain this to me because I'm just not getting it.

1) It says in the BRB that GtG gives +1 to cover save....meaning marines would get a 3++, not 2++, behind an Aegis.

2) I can't find anywhere in the book that says you can recover from GtG automatically with ATSKNF. Nowhere does it say that you rally to recover from GtG. There's no leadership test or morale check...you just lose the ability to move and shoot normally, so how does ATSKNF protect you from that?

P104, the defense lines and reference to barricades. You get 4+, then get +2 for GtG behind the defense line.

as to #2, I think I have gotten things mixed up in my head with combat tactics from vanilla marines. (above text have been edited), I chose to GtG, then chose to fail my moral test due to combat tactics (due to usually 25% casualties) which gets me back up normally by falling back, then rally automatically the next turn. I totally forgot not every marine has this >.<

 felixcat wrote:
So I decided to try a pure GK list at 1500 as allied lists at 1500 were fun but lacked the shooty punch I want. I was going to use a skyshield but in the end just went without and relied on cover and hoped for good jokaero rolls

My observations

1) We have some anti-flyer but it is not reliable
2) dreadknights have outperformed my dreasdnoughts
3) some plasma is nice
4) prescience is awesome in a Gk list

So I ran a few henchmen squads with what I had ... plasma, heavy bolters jokers and stormbolter acolytes. I ran Coteaz and an inquisitor with psyocculum. Then a few GKSS squads and two DKs.

I did DS one GKSS squad in a game and it worked well so I plan on doing it more. I started both DKs on the table. I might DS them in certain match ups to see if it helps but I doubt it. Going first is absolutely a bonus. Against daemons I would have lost without turn one warp quake to slow them down (my other match which was very close was against IG/SW). You want to get first blood and linebreaker ... DKs are good at that with a DS squad of GKSS.

Prescience helps shoot down fliers. No way I could without it unless the dice rolls defy the statistical norm. With two sources I can cast where needed.

DKs continue to impress. They cost an arm and a leg but they are so good on the table. You just have to be wary of getting tar pitted.

Henchmen are weak sauce. Great weapons no doubt. Cheap for what you get ( a plasma blast, 3 lascannon shots, 6 heavy bolter shots and sometimes 10 stormbolter shots with whatever bonuses Jokers provide). That is a lot of dakka. But they are fragile. You really have to try and get them cover and you might have to GtG at times. I am tempted to add crusaders but then the squad really does start to become overpriced and lose some over watch shots and extra dakka when shooting.

Psyocculum was useless in my first match (I played against daemons). But against the IG/SW it was fantastic. That henchmen squad wreaked havoc shooting with BS10. What can I say. I will definitely keep it.

The game against IG/SW was my best game although it was close. It was the Emperor mission. Not that favorable for me. He also used a very large blob of IG with power axes and flyers and rune priests. Nasty list but at 1500 he could not fiit in all the goodies and he had only one LF squad and one flyer. That worked to my advantage. Now my list is probably not optimized fully and the IG/SW one was not either. The Daemon list was a pretty standard Fateweaver/LoC/Screamer/Flamer list. His plaguebearers were nigh useless ... if they scatter at all they do nothing all game and cannot even reach an objective. I was not impressed with them. So overall it was a half decent test.

The Warlord traits did not help that much - I took strategic on Corteazboth games - and telekinis never got me what I wanted ( would have liked Gate or Objuration and never got either). What are others taking?




--edited for spelling/grammar twice, doh--

 schadenfreude wrote:
The advantage of 4 is for ack ack. If there are a lot of fliers don't combat squad and cast prescience on the unit. Best part is they can move and continue to snap fire in heavy 4 mode against fliers. 16 shots with rerolls to hit is more likely than not to knock most fliers out of the sky.

 jy2 wrote:
Hey guys, check out my battle against Draigowing and my comments on them.

2K Double Feature! - 2 Ork Battles - vs Draigowing & vs Fateweaver Daemons!

 daedalus-templarius wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Hey guys, check out my battle against Draigowing and my comments on them.

2K Double Feature! - 2 Ork Battles - vs Draigowing & vs Fateweaver Daemons!

Nice batrep, definitely would have done a few things differently in a 2k list of my own.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 daedalus-templarius wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Hey guys, check out my battle against Draigowing and my comments on them.

2K Double Feature! - 2 Ork Battles - vs Draigowing & vs Fateweaver Daemons!

Nice batrep, definitely would have done a few things differently in a 2k list of my own.

More Paladins and less better stuff?

 Goat wrote:
For Purifier spam, on turn 1 do you move 12" per rhino and snap shoot heavy4 x2 psycannons or move 6" full BS 4 shots? Math hammer me plox.

 sudojoe wrote:

 Goat wrote:
For Purifier spam, on turn 1 do you move 12" per rhino and snap shoot heavy4 x2 psycannons or move 6" full BS 4 shots? Math hammer me plox.

Kind of completely depends on what you are shooting at and what the board looks like. With the way assault rules now, if you are moving 12' you can't disembark so you cannot assault till turn 3 at the earliest as you must dismount by turn 2.

If you don't care if you get charged then maybe just go run in.

If you are talking number of hits, that's pretty easy to answer as 4 shots at BS 4 (2.64 hits) is still going to be more hits than 8 hits at BS1 (1.336).

 felixcat wrote:

Has anyone been using purgation squads lately. I am thinking of adding this to my list ...

Librarian, TDA, Nemesis Force Sword, 2*Divination 150
8 Purgation Squad, 4 Psycannons 240

I figure with prescience this squad handles AA, AT and Hordes reasonably well. Well AA is always a problem but two or three hull points can be removed each turn at least. Prescience certainly boosts the squad. I went with eight for a few ablative wounds and the odd 'look out sir'. The downside is that they replace Dreads which function well as AA but with night fighting now they look good. I now cover saves have been reduced to 5+ but if I have 'LoS' I won't use astral aim if I feel safe enough. I'm more concerned with hiding my guys from damage. I generally use two DKs with Heavy Incinerators in my lists anyway. Is this a bad idea?

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Oh hey, Draigo pictures for this page!

“And so his sword was reforged with the molten remains of Kar’Voth’s great daemonic axe, purged of daemonic taint… or was it?”


http://galefire.com/2012/09/trials-of-draigo-the-reforged-titansword/

Purifiers can fill that exact roll for 8 points less.

The strengths of purgation are access to free heavy incinerators and teleport homers.

 felixcat wrote:

Has anyone been using purgation squads lately. I am thinking of adding this to my list ...

Librarian, TDA, Nemesis Force Sword, 2*Divination 150
8 Purgation Squad, 4 Psycannons 240

I figure with prescience this squad handles AA, AT and Hordes reasonably well. Well AA is always a problem but two or three hull points can be removed each turn at least. Prescience certainly boosts the squad. I went with eight for a few ablative wounds and the odd 'look out sir'. The downside is that they replace Dreads which function well as AA but with night fighting now they look good. I now cover saves have been reduced to 5+ but if I have 'LoS' I won't use astral aim if I feel safe enough. I'm more concerned with hiding my guys from damage. I generally use two DKs with Heavy Incinerators in my lists anyway. Is this a bad idea?

 sudojoe wrote:


ooo very nice. That sword reminds me of something out of world of warcraft. Draigo looks pretty mean there.

btw, do you plan on doing anything with crowe and the purifiers or coteaz? I'm still a big purifier fan but developing a soft spot for henchmen lists since 6th.

 felixcat wrote:

Purifiers can fill that exact roll for 8 points less.

Not if you want four psycannons. They come to forty points more.

 Stoffer wrote:
I'd never use a T3 model to absorb fire. In fact, if I saw someone put Coteaz in the front of a unit, that would be the first thing I shot at.

10 Purifiers with 4 psycannons. 280 pts

10 Purgators with 4 psycannons. 280 pts

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:
I'd never use a T3 model to absorb fire. In fact, if I saw someone put Coteaz in the front of a unit, that would be the first thing I shot at.

His T3 only comes into play for instant death purposes, as your use the majority toughness when rolling to wound, so either he is taking a 2+ AS against anything S5 or less, or he takes a 2+ LOS against anything S6 or more; either way it is more tactically beneficial to have him out front.

 Stoffer wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:
I'd never use a T3 model to absorb fire. In fact, if I saw someone put Coteaz in the front of a unit, that would be the first thing I shot at.

His T3 only comes into play for instant death purposes, as your use the majority toughness when rolling to wound, so either he is taking a 2+ AS against anything S5 or less, or he takes a 2+ LOS against anything S6 or more; either way it is more tactically beneficial to have him out front.

No, having him infront is an awful tactical choice. Coteaz is a great utility character but an awful tank. If you have him infront you're playing him terribly and don't necessarily understand his value; you're basically playing him like he was Draigo.

If you fail a LOS against something fairly frequent like autocannons, plasma etc, you're throwing one of your most valuable pieces away. If you're just doing LOS on wounds anyway, why not have him in the back for the same effect? The most beneficial way to play Coteaz is to use his utility (making as much reroll hits every turn) and then hit with the hammer from the back. He's not a frontline model.

 Stoffer wrote:
I'd never use a T3 model to absorb fire. In fact, if I saw someone put Coteaz in the front of a unit, that would be the first thing I shot at.

whoadirty wrote:

 Stoffer wrote:
I'd never use a T3 model to absorb fire. In fact, if I saw someone put Coteaz in the front of a unit, that would be the first thing I shot at.

I was strictly referring to his use as a Prescience buff being cheaper than that of a regular Librarian. I personally wouldn't use him to tank.

 Red Comet wrote:
The only thing that blows about putting Coteaz in the front is that you are forced to Look Out Sir! the wounds away before actually rolling for your armor save.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:
The only thing that blows about putting Coteaz in the front is that you are forced to Look Out Sir! the wounds away before actually rolling for your armor save.

You always have to do that now since the FAQ; all units with characters use the mixed saves rule, and note that's characters, not just independent characters, so it goes for sergeants too and the like. Makes sense from a fluff point of view, but slows the game down unnecessarily I think.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Finally got the Ork report up here; it's good to have internet again.

 sudojoe wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Finally got the Ork report up here; it's good to have internet again.

ouch, I thought that the paladins would have been better in CC. Just how many boys were in that combat? And think apothecary would have helped with FnP?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Finally got the Ork report up here; it's good to have internet again.

tuiman wrote:
So just come back from my first tournament, was a doubles so was more for fun than competitive but learn heaps of stuff about my army all the same

I took coteaz and spammed 3 man warrior acolytes with psybacks, one squad of purifiers, 2 psyrifleman and dreadknight.

Will first say that I really dont know what to put in the heavy slot anymore, my two dreads were awsome every game, taking out things like necron barges, dark eldar ravagers, all the killy stuff first turn however I loved using my dreadknight to. He only survived one game, but soaked up a huge amount of firepower, and with jump pack and heavy incinerator made a high number of kills to, I would love to take a second one but then that would mean switching a dread to elites. Hmm, not sure yet.

Taking henchman gave me lots of good firepower in the form of 4 psybacks, however squishy henchman are not good for holding objectives, will increase squad size a lot or maybe add a unit or two of terminators for some more solid scoring units.

Purifiers were awesome, with prescience just sit in a rhino and shoot psycannon death everywhere, I wish I took two squads of them.

With that in mind I was thinking of taking crowe with coteaz, that way can have scoring purifiers and free up the elite slot for techmarine, ven dread etc.

Problem with that is that I would love to take a libby for more psychic powers (divination is just heavenly) and not to keen on the old crowe tax. Thoughts?

 sudojoe wrote:

tuiman wrote:
So just come back from my first tournament, was a doubles so was more for fun than competitive but learn heaps of stuff about my army all the same

I took coteaz and spammed 3 man warrior acolytes with psybacks, one squad of purifiers, 2 psyrifleman and dreadknight.

Will first say that I really dont know what to put in the heavy slot anymore, my two dreads were awsome every game, taking out things like necron barges, dark eldar ravagers, all the killy stuff first turn however I loved using my dreadknight to. He only survived one game, but soaked up a huge amount of firepower, and with jump pack and heavy incinerator made a high number of kills to, I would love to take a second one but then that would mean switching a dread to elites. Hmm, not sure yet.

Taking henchman gave me lots of good firepower in the form of 4 psybacks, however squishy henchman are not good for holding objectives, will increase squad size a lot or maybe add a unit or two of terminators for some more solid scoring units.

Purifiers were awesome, with prescience just sit in a rhino and shoot psycannon death everywhere, I wish I took two squads of them.

With that in mind I was thinking of taking crowe with coteaz, that way can have scoring purifiers and free up the elite slot for techmarine, ven dread etc.



Problem with that is that I would love to take a libby for more psychic powers (divination is just heavenly) and not to keen on the old crowe tax. Thoughts?

It's kind of funny but I sorta arrived at this from the other side. I started with a crowe purifier list and then ended up adding coteaz for the buffs and dropping the interceptors. Then I started to replace some of the CC equipment and getting rhinos some henchemen for shooting and put in a storm raven just because I really have problems with fliers, especially the necron ones. I quite like the list and with coteaz being actually somewhat survivable in a big enough squad, I tend to use crowe like I used to, i.e. as tarpit/chrage in unit. I've lost quite a few games with the purifiers just cause crowe gave up warlord a bit too easily for my liking. Of course I play at 1500 and units are very very tight. I'd love to get some dreadknight in there too but so far the AC dreads are hard to replace for this mostly gunline army.

As to the liby, I don't miss hood at all. What I found most useful with the liby when I do use him now, is of course for buffs, but actually to try and be a tank with a staff and brain mines. I can try a build with liby + coteaz + henchmen and maybe just a squad or so of strike squads to see how it does. I do unfortunately have a good nid and choppy BA and choppy DE / Eldar in the local meta so I never completely ignore CC.

Coyote81 wrote:
I've got a dilemma with a 2k list I've been working on. It's coteaz with IG allies. and between the two armies I can't decide if bringing 2 GK psyflmen is better then saving the points and bringing 10 autocannons and having the poitns to upgrade my platoons to have plasma guns as well. The biggest loss is the S8 shots, I can TL my autcannons well enough, and having 10 vice 4 is a huge difference in pure amount of shots, and the unit weilding them are troops instead of heavies. And after seeing the recently release missions list for FOB, i think i'm going to need lot of troops.
I know it's hard to decide without a list to work with, so here's what I got, short and simple.

HQ

-Coteaz
-IG Command Squad Astropath, 2x grenade launchers 1x autcannon.

Troops
-3x Acolyte w/ plasmaguns in psyback w/SL
-3x Acolyte w/ plasmaguns in psyback w/SL
-3x Acolyte w/ meltaguns in psyback w/SL
-10x GKSS 2x Psycannon Srg w/ hammer psyboltammo in psyback w/SL
-IG Platoon: Platoon cmd 3x metlaguns 1x flamer
-platoon plasmagun autocannon commissar krak grenades
-platoon plasmagun autocannon krak grenades
-platoon plasmagun autocannon krak grenades
-Hvy Wep Sqd 3x Autcannons
-Hvy Wep Sqd 3x Autcannons

Fast
-GK Stromraven TL MM, TL LC, SL
-IG Vendetta w/ 2x Heavy Bolters

Heavy
-IG Manticore w/ bolter

Forts
-Aegis Defense Line with Quadgun.

~2kpts

So do i keep the 2x Hvy Wep Sqds and the autocannons in the platoons, or do I grab myself Psyflemen. I ask myself, what I'm going to do against necro AV 13 spam, and I wonder how many I can glance do death. Not so worried about landraiders, I can handle that, but 6ish AV 13 vehicles in nightifhgting might be an issue.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Not seeing the reason for the 3 man Henchment squads either. They can't hold objectives, and need to pray their ride gets them to the place in the game where they do the utmost damage (which is only 2.5 Marines on average).

tuiman wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Not seeing the reason for the 3 man Henchment squads either. They can't hold objectives, and need to pray their ride gets them to the place in the game where they do the utmost damage (which is only 2.5 Marines on average).

Agree with this, 3 man henchman squads are horrible, either make them bigger or make sure you have something more solid like terminators to hold.

Another trick I never realized until now, for purifiers, I use to put hammer on justicar and run two halberd two psycannon. Now I put the halberd on the justicar and run a hammer on a normal purifier. This way I can issue challenges and kill of all the nasty powerfists power klaw nobs, sergeants etc, before they can swing back, also leaves the hammer to attack the regular guys. Just a subtle thing that's been working wonders for me.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I must say with the new DK buff/cheese, the damn baby carrier really earns his points now. In my last 2k game against elder, one DK with a sword and flamer managed to single handily wipe out a wraitlord, a unit of dire avengers, a unit of guardians, a unit or rangers, and a unit of fire dragons before finally being brought down. To be fair, it was mostly my opponent's fault for bunching up his troops so close...

tuiman wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Not seeing the reason for the 3 man Henchment squads either. They can't hold objectives, and need to pray their ride gets them to the place in the game where they do the utmost damage (which is only 2.5 Marines on average).

Agree with this, 3 man henchman squads are horrible, either make them bigger or make sure you have something more solid like terminators to hold.

Another trick I never realized until now, for purifiers, I use to put hammer on justicar and run two halberd two psycannon. Now I put the halberd on the justicar and run a hammer on a normal purifier. This way I can issue challenges and kill of all the nasty powerfists power klaw nobs, sergeants etc, before they can swing back, also leaves the hammer to attack the regular guys. Just a subtle thing that's been working wonders for me.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I must say with the new DK buff/cheese, the damn baby carrier really earns his points now. In my last 2k game against elder, one DK with a sword and flamer managed to single handily wipe out a wraitlord, a unit of dire avengers, a unit of guardians, a unit or rangers, and a unit of fire dragons before finally being brought down. To be fair, it was mostly my opponent's fault for bunching up his troops so close...

I don't think they need a teleporter and find the prospect of 3 deepstriking dks without jump packs more intimidating than 2 dks with jump packs. Riflemen are nice, but the roll of long ranged dakka can be easily filled by allies.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I must say with the new DK buff/cheese, the damn baby carrier really earns his points now. In my last 2k game against elder, one DK with a sword and flamer managed to single handily wipe out a wraitlord, a unit of dire avengers, a unit of guardians, a unit or rangers, and a unit of fire dragons before finally being brought down. To be fair, it was mostly my opponent's fault for bunching up his troops so close...

I don't think they need a teleporter and find the prospect of 3 deepstriking dks without jump packs more intimidating than 2 dks with jump packs. Riflemen are nice, but the roll of long ranged dakka can be easily filled by allies.

Yes to no Teleporter, no to Deep Striking. Deep Striknig is unpredictable, random, and extremely dangerous. Better to deploy and walk. Works for me every time, and means the DK starts drawing enemy fire right from turn 1 so the rest of your army stays unmolested. Hell sometimes he can even flame stuff on turn 1 if you go second and the enemy has to move forward; see the CSM/IG game of my latest tournament report.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I must say with the new DK buff/cheese, the damn baby carrier really earns his points now. In my last 2k game against elder, one DK with a sword and flamer managed to single handily wipe out a wraitlord, a unit of dire avengers, a unit of guardians, a unit or rangers, and a unit of fire dragons before finally being brought down. To be fair, it was mostly my opponent's fault for bunching up his troops so close...

I don't think they need a teleporter and find the prospect of 3 deepstriking dks without jump packs more intimidating than 2 dks with jump packs. Riflemen are nice, but the roll of long ranged dakka can be easily filled by allies.

Yes to no Teleporter, no to Deep Striking. Deep Striknig is unpredictable, random, and extremely dangerous. Better to deploy and walk. Works for me every time, and means the DK starts drawing enemy fire right from turn 1 so the rest of your army stays unmolested. Hell sometimes he can even flame stuff on turn 1 if you go second and the enemy has to move forward; see the CSM/IG game of my latest tournament report.

Depends on the list. Servo skulls, mystics, and quad flamer purgation squads with a teleport homer can all make deep striking safe. I guess it really depends on what the rest of the list is like. With the versatility of the GK codex DS is a valid option. That being said walking is also a valid option, especially if a TEQ unit is also hoofing it.

 Red Comet wrote:
Sounds like you have been having a lot of bad luck. The good thing if you run foot GK is that you can keep your Strike Squads in reserves and then deep strike them using the Servo Skulls from an Inquisitor to reduce the scatter.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I must say with the new DK buff/cheese, the damn baby carrier really earns his points now. In my last 2k game against elder, one DK with a sword and flamer managed to single handily wipe out a wraitlord, a unit of dire avengers, a unit of guardians, a unit or rangers, and a unit of fire dragons before finally being brought down. To be fair, it was mostly my opponent's fault for bunching up his troops so close...

I don't think they need a teleporter and find the prospect of 3 deepstriking dks without jump packs more intimidating than 2 dks with jump packs. Riflemen are nice, but the roll of long ranged dakka can be easily filled by allies.

Yes to no Teleporter, no to Deep Striking. Deep Striknig is unpredictable, random, and extremely dangerous. Better to deploy and walk. Works for me every time, and means the DK starts drawing enemy fire right from turn 1 so the rest of your army stays unmolested. Hell sometimes he can even flame stuff on turn 1 if you go second and the enemy has to move forward; see the CSM/IG game of my latest tournament report.

Depends on the list. Servo skulls, mystics, and quad flamer purgation squads with a teleport homer can all make deep striking safe. I guess it really depends on what the rest of the list is like. With the versatility of the GK codex DS is a valid option. That being said walking is also a valid option, especially if a TEQ unit is also hoofing it.