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berglin wrote:
Why is Draigo nerfed? It says to replace the first sentence of the Titan Sword entry with the new entry, which essentially just clarifies that it is a =sword= and that is =master crafted=.

The way I see it the second sentence that gives him S10 against daemons and psykers is unaffected.

Or am I being dense?

No, you're right about that. Everyone was very quick to rush to conclusions on that one.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
But on the flipside your opponent can't challenge out your valuable armaments, nobody to accept, nobody can get made useless.

Although on the flipside of the flipside, if you put a character in with the Paladins they are extremely vulnerable to challenges since they are the only person that can accept.

Blackmoor makes the proposition that Paladins are a shooting unit, and that not being able to shunt wounds around isn't a big deal because there'll still be two models with Psycannons regardless.

But 5 Paladins with 2 psycannons and no upgrades is 315 points. 5 Purifiers with 2 Psycannons is 140 points. 10 Purifiers with 4 psycannons are 325 points. Shooting is a Purifiers game, especially when each squad lets you take a 45 point Razorback as well. Purifiers are more vulnerable to shooting, that's true. But now so are Paladins.

While I disagree with your previous assertion that Paladins weren't great to begin with, you have hit the nail on the head with the present state of things. The reasons they stood out as a viable choice before was because of the 2W combined with the LOS shenanigans. With that gone they are just regular 2W Terminators with a cost too high to justify them. It kills me because of the work I out into painting them, but it is what it is.

As for LOS in general with characters, yes it seems stupid since sergeants etc. are characters. But it's the way it should have been; characters taking LOS after saves was kind of stupid.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just because he says it doesn't make it so. They got nerfed; that's a fact. How that will mean they will be taken more, I will never understand.

Oh, the irony...

So, with the nerf (which I like, the LOS shenanigans were, well, shenanigans) do GKTs now make sense? They certainly look similar to or stronger than basic tactical terminators except for the lack of an option to take a CML. I'm curious because I was just about to pull the trigger on buying a Draigo-wing army when I found out about the new FAQs. Now I'm not so sure it makes sense, especially since I have a solid chunk of a decent Deathwing army ready to go once the new DA codex drops. (Unless they make Deathwing suck. That could certainly happen.)

I guess Draigo's sword didn't get nerfed actually, it does say replace the FIRST sentence.

Welp, off to my tourney with Paladins. Will let you guys know how it goes!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just because he says it doesn't make it so. They got nerfed; that's a fact. How that will mean they will be taken more, I will never understand.

Oh, the irony...

The difference here is what I'm saying isn't just something I randomly stated; the FAQ took away abilities from the Paladins and gave them none. That's a nerf. I'm not saying that's fact because I say so, I'm saying it's fact because it is there plain as day in writing by GW themselves.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
I guess Draigo's sword didn't get nerfed actually, it does say replace the FIRST sentence.

Welp, off to my tourney with Paladins. Will let you guys know how it goes!

Good luck mate. Hopefully there won't be too much AP2 fire lying about.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
I guess Draigo's sword didn't get nerfed actually, it does say replace the FIRST sentence.

Welp, off to my tourney with Paladins. Will let you guys know how it goes!

Good luck, eagerly waiting for an update

Lansirill wrote:
So, with the nerf (which I like, the LOS shenanigans were, well, shenanigans) do GKTs now make sense? They certainly look similar to or stronger than basic tactical terminators except for the lack of an option to take a CML. I'm curious because I was just about to pull the trigger on buying a Draigo-wing army when I found out about the new FAQs. Now I'm not so sure it makes sense, especially since I have a solid chunk of a decent Deathwing army ready to go once the new DA codex drops. (Unless they make Deathwing suck. That could certainly happen.)

No. Granted, GKT aren't terrible, but Purifier Spam and Inquisispam are so much better that GKT are barely even worth mentioning.

To be honest I never found regular GKT to be all that great a choice.

This reminds me of when the new Sisters of Battle codex came out in White Dwarf. People were proclaiming that sisters nerfed hugely and that they were dead. Well, fast forwards about 1 year later. We have Battle Sisters placing 4th at the Golden Throne GT. 2 sisters players also placed in the Top16 at Nova, including 3rd place. In short, it wasn't so bad for Sister armies as players were able to find builds that not only made up for their army's shortcomings, but that also made them competitive as well.

This is exactly the type of panic that I am seeing with the GK paladins. Honestly, the world isn't falling. Paladins are still a decent selection. As a matter of fact, I still think that they are better than regular GKT terminators. The trick is to surround them with good units the complement them and their shortcomings.

--- mini-rant coming ---

Honestly, the pre-FAQ wound allocation with LOS and every model being a character was just broken. I didn't think that was GW's intent on how they should be played and I am glad GW did something to reign them back inline with how I think they were supposed to play. Wound allocation was just breaking the game and turning it into an arms race to see who had the best combos (and this is coming from a competitive player like me). It was also driving out a lot of players who got discourages at these combos and what they perceived to be "broken". IMO, this became a necessary nerf to make the game more balanced. They were trying to get away from wound allocation shenanigans in 6th, but their pre-FAQ 6E rules only made it more abusive.

--- end of mini-rant ---

Anyways, you need to compensate for the nerf to LOS and wound allocation by playing a more tactical game. Now, placement of models within the unit matters. You just have to use your brains more when running Draigowing rather than to run it like the brainless monster it once was. And the lack of characters in the unit itself just makes it a more level playing field with all the other armies in the game. Get used to it.

 jy2 wrote:
This reminds me of when the new Sisters of Battle codex came out in White Dwarf. People were proclaiming that sisters nerfed hugely and that they were dead. Well, fast forwards about 1 year later. We have Battle Sisters placing 4th at the Golden Throne GT. 2 sisters players also placed in the Top16 at Nova, including 3rd place. In short, it wasn't so bad for Sister armies as players were able to find builds that not only made up for their army's shortcomings, but that also made them competitive as well.

This is exactly the type of panic that I am seeing with the GK paladins. Honestly, the world isn't falling. Paladins are still a decent selection. As a matter of fact, I still think that they are better than regular GKT terminators. The trick is to surround them with good units the complement them and their shortcomings.

--- mini-rant coming ---

Honestly, the pre-FAQ wound allocation with LOS and every model being a character was just broken. I didn't think that was GW's intent on how they should be played and I am glad GW did something to reign them back inline with how I think they were supposed to play. Wound allocation was just breaking the game and turning it into an arms race to see who had the best combos (and this is coming from a competitive player like me). It was also driving out a lot of players who got discourages at these combos and what they perceived to be "broken". IMO, this became a necessary nerf to make the game more balanced. They were trying to get away from wound allocation shenanigans in 6th, but their pre-FAQ 6E rules only made it more abusive.

--- end of mini-rant ---

Anyways, you need to compensate for the nerf to LOS and wound allocation by playing a more tactical game. Now, placement of models within the unit matters. You just have to use your brains more when running Draigowing rather than to run it like the brainless monster it once was. And the lack of characters in the unit itself just makes it a more level playing field with all the other armies in the game. Get used to it.

We have a GT coming up next month and I'll probably still bring my Paladins, just to see. They did take a hit, but I'm not entirely sure just how big it is before I've playtested them, so yeah, panic probably a bit premature And as you said, it was probably a fair change.

About the sisters: The reason we're seeing sisters do so well is 6th. They were still relatively unremarkable in 5th

 jy2 wrote:

--- mini-rant coming ---

Honestly, the pre-FAQ wound allocation with LOS and every model being a character was just broken. I didn't think that was GW's intent on how they should be played and I am glad GW did something to reign them back inline with how I think they were supposed to play. Wound allocation was just breaking the game and turning it into an arms race to see who had the best combos (and this is coming from a competitive player like me). It was also driving out a lot of players who got discourages at these combos and what they perceived to be "broken". IMO, this became a necessary nerf to make the game more balanced. They were trying to get away from wound allocation shenanigans in 6th, but their pre-FAQ 6E rules only made it more abusive.

--- end of mini-rant ---

Wound allocation certainly had problems, but multi-wound character units needed something. Now they're just overcosted.

Furthermore, what people think is overpowered isn't always the case. Just because it's hard for newbies to get around doesn't make it immediately overpowered.

And similarly just because people overreact at times doesn't mean it is always an overreaction. Paladins aren't a bad buy, but without the rules they had going for them, too many other options become better choices rather than just alternative choices.

And yes, Paladins are most definitely still better than regular GKT, but the thing is most things in the Codex are and always were better than GKT.

As for Sisters, I always thought they were a great army, but we are seeing results now only because of 6th.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
And similarly just because people overreact at times doesn't mean it is always an overreaction. Paladins aren't a bad buy, but without the rules they had going for them, too many other options become better choices rather than just alternative choices.

And yes, Paladins are most definitely still better than regular GKT, but the thing is most things in the Codex are and always were better than GKT..

I'd tend to agree.

Paladins played rather differently in pre FAQ 6th to 5th, but they provided an interesting alternative to Purifiers and Weakling based armies. Now even if you always regarded paladins as shooters rather than assaulters -- which I never really did -- Purifiers are now better value by almost any measure. Simply changing LOS! to the closest model would have been enough to 'nerf' 6th edition paladins in my view. But making them non-characters has put them well below the viability of Purifier or Weakling spam and probably Strike spam also; which is a bit of a shame as I'm not certain that Paladins were so overpowered in 6th anyway.

Not, you understand, that I'm moaning. I'll just change up my list. But paladins have in my view definitely been pegged back further than was really needed, and not in an especially 'fluffy' way either. Nobz and Wolf Guard too.

GKT are troops and as such are a fantastic cheap Ally purchase when paired with any load out of inquisitor.

Ok I've updated quite a bit of stuff on the first page now. Should be more in line with v 1.1 changes. I just realized that the biggest nerf for me on the paladin changes is the loss of precision shots. That REALLY hurts me as I can't now just melt down the melta gun guys

I'm going to try and test play some tau allies with my GK lists. Think purifiers would work better with them or cheapo henchmen units? I honestly can't quite decide. Thinking purifiers would be good for counter attacks but having a hard time winning with them lately due to how much anti-MEQ firepower I seem to be encountering in my local meta. (thanks alot to necrons/eldar/IG/other SW builds ) Also really not doing well with crowe survival. I really hate giving up victory points due to him. Got killed by freaking 5 man ratling squad the other day rolling 2 6s' and me failing both 4++ iron halos in the 2nd turn of the game. Can't even GtG due to fearless in ruins arrrg.... I think that was the most humilating death so far for old crowe.

The character change to infantry have been an overkill, not just paladins, nobs and else too.

As someone said, the LOS change was enough, paladins may be still good, but not as good as before, making them worst than henchmen lists, and more at 2000 games points, where you can get a good load of lasscannons, plasma cannons, and else.

Does the Apothecary become more valuable with the LOS changes?

whoadirty wrote:
Does the Apothecary become more valuable with the LOS changes?

Yes, before you could swap wounds better, now, you need to soak wounds on models, more than pass them.

Yes the Apothecary now becomes a must-have if you are taking Paladins in my opinion now, though as you can see, this means that you are now paying more for a unit that is still less effective than it was a few days ago.

Even with the "new" paladins, I'd rather not take the Apothecary. I'd rather use the points to bulk up the "support" units.

Honestly, the change to LOS has hurt Paladins quite a bit, but less look at them again with fresh eyes.

Pros
2 wounds
2 heavy weapons per 5 man squad
Can get FNP
5 WS
Holocaust psychic power

Cons
Expensive

This is a pretty quick run down, I'm sure I've forgotten things. Anyway for an expensive price tag you still have a very rock solid unit that doesn't like to die. If someone does assault you they better have AP 2 CCW or they're in trouble. Now give the a Librarian with either codex powers or Divination powers and you still have a very mean unit. Heck, you could even do specialized squads for specific roles. 5 man anti infantry unit with Incinerators/Psycannons and Halberds, a 5 man anti armor unit with Psycannons and Hammers all around. Granted point would be the problem but that hasn't changed at all, also as others have stated playing paladins now becomes a tactical thing, but that goes for most death star units as well.

I also think we should stop thinking of Paladins as "let's make these troops and spam" and more like "this is a nice hard hitting/shooting elite unit that we take 1 or two until of".

Now I know that this is the gk thread, but why not use draigo an the paladins as an allied detachment? This would only be possible in a 2k game but it might not be a bad idea, knights are expensive you could do a lot with a thousand points, from say the ig codex.

I'm thinking a couple melta vet squads with vendettas an leman Russ tanks.

Tourney is over, and I did pretty poorly this time; but it didn't have anything to do with the changes in the FAQ.

I took...
Draigo
Coteaz
6 Paladins, 2 Psycannons
1 Solodin
5 Strike w/ Razor
2 DKs, Incinerator and Sword
1 Psyrifle

First game, I issued a challenge to the daemons player... not the best idea. Fateweaver turned Draigo into a pile of goo in his first attack, then the Paladin squad was charged by a S9 Bloodthirster who proceeded to run roughshod over them, insta-killing 5 with his first round of attacks. The rest of the game was over pretty quick with me being tabled by the rest of the flying circus.

Second game was against another GK player, he had a bastion and a vindicare who I proceeded to melt in a building explosion. It was then onto prescienced psycannons vs prescienced psycannons, and I managed to basically kill all of his paladins/troops while (his)Draigo was busy screwing around with my Dreadknights. Won that game handily.

Third game played against... another... GK player. This one with henchmen, a big squad of purifiers, 2 psyrifle dreads and a regular dread. It was an awful combo, hammer and anvil kill points, so basically most of the game was me footslogging towards him and him shooting me.

The hammerblows of the game were really the Mind-Strike missiles from his Stormraven... which apparently you resolve each model covered as a perils? f me... so my whole paladin squad basically got annihilated by perils, and so did Coteaz. Then I had a chance to destroy his stormraven before the end of the game when it was hovering... my hammernator missed all 3 of his attacks. Dreadknights were gunned down by psycannons, one only needed a 4 to get into CC, managed to roll 1, 1, 2 again while in terrain... feth

If I had of managed to destroy his stormraven, or one more unit, it would have been a draw. But I didn't, so I lost

So yea, went pretty badly! but really, I didn't notice much of a change considering the new LOS faq stuff. I was missing the teleport packs on my DKs and definitely my apo (I might have actually saved some of those perils). Bleh 1500 points.

I don't wanna play anything under 2k anymore.

What? Why? 2000+ is an awful format for anything other than having a bit of fun.

valace2 wrote:
I don't wanna play anything under 2k anymore.

2 force orgs? No thanks

Sorry 1999+1 my local scene isn't in to the double force org

Don't the paladins have the brotherhood of psykers rule and therefore when hit by the template only suffer one perils roll. I seem to rememeber that is how it's suppose to work.

Coyote81 wrote:
Don't the paladins have the brotherhood of psykers rule and therefore when hit by the template only suffer one perils roll. I seem to rememeber that is how it's suppose to work.

This is correct. When hit by mindstrike missiles, only 1 model in a BoP unit suffers Perils (either the justicar or 1 random member), not everyone under the template.