Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So when it comes to equipping Paladins/Termies, are Halberds still the way to go, or are swords better now? I'd think that with only one exception (Incubi), most things that hit at AP2 now go at the after you, and those few that do now (DPs, GDs, Genestealers, Avatar of Khaine) will still go before you even with the Halberds, or be I1 since you have the psyk-out grenades making I6 pointless, in which case you'd want the 4++ in case it survives your first round of attacks.

And wow I just realized something, anyone else think the Super high initiative of new Daemons/Avatar was created specifically in response to GK halberds?

I'm interested in people's thoughts on this post...

Pretty sure it was answered. 2 hammers, 2 halberds, 1 sword per 5 TDA seems to be the forum favorite, with max Psycannons. Banners are preferred on CC oriented squads, Psybolts at 10man only, and Staves on Justicars if you have the points (halberds if you don't).

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Pretty sure it was answered. 2 hammers, 2 halberds, 1 sword per 5 TDA seems to be the forum favorite, with max Psycannons. Banners are preferred on CC oriented squads, Psybolts at 10man only, and Staves on Justicars if you have the points (halberds if you don't).

SJ

Wouldn't a sword be better on the Justicar, since anything that accepts a challenge from him can probably bypass his 2+ armor, hence the 4+ becomes very useful?

Edit: nevermind, Halberd means he'll probably kill most anything that can bypass his armor.

On the discussion about Daemons i had a few games against them this week end and i found that GK were really nice against them.
Prefered ennemy is really nasty against them (reroll 1 to hit&wound in CC&shooting).
This is even better then twin link on ALL your army (except vehicles and henchmen).

There is obviously the risk of the FMC but with MSU you force lots of grounding checks and we are one of the best army against the screamerstar (vindicare + icarius or storm).

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Have an idea about allying Grey Knights into my Eldar list. One thing I found that is really a problem for Eldar are Drop Pods and Deep Strikers dropping right in front of your Serpents. Also against certain enemies going first is a must. Lastly, immense hoards with cover might be an issue for some lists.

I was thinking Coteaz, 10 Strikes and a Dreadknight would make good allies for a 3-4 Serpents list with 2 Wraithknights tacked on. This gives re-roll to seize, Deep Strike protection, some additional AA with Prescienced Psycannons, and the Dreadknight for anti-hoard and more monstery fun.

What do people think about this?

Apologies for double posting this, but it got buried on the last page immediately after posting so don't think anyone will see it, and really could use some opinions.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Have an idea about allying Grey Knights into my Eldar list. One thing I found that is really a problem for Eldar are Drop Pods and Deep Strikers dropping right in front of your Serpents. Also against certain enemies going first is a must. Lastly, immense hoards with cover might be an issue for some lists.

I was thinking Coteaz, 10 Strikes and a Dreadknight would make good allies for a 3-4 Serpents list with 2 Wraithknights tacked on. This gives re-roll to seize, Deep Strike protection, some additional AA with Prescienced Psycannons, and the Dreadknight for anti-hoard and more monstery fun.

What do people think about this?

For mechdar, it really isn't that much of an issue. If you aren't going first, well, then it wouldn't really matter because strikers can't cast Warp Quake anyways. Coteaz's bubble will help, though I find it rather easy for drop pods to deploy out of his range (or at least for the crew to disembark out of his range). At the ATC, I never really got to use Coteaz's ability except once (against Marbo) but then I forgot to use it that time. Lol.

Anyways, getting back on topic, all you really need to do is to deploy your serpents along or close to the edge of your table and the only thing they can fire at is your serpent shielded front/side armor. If you are going first, just move all your skimmers flat-out and, assuming you've got holo-fields, now you have 3+ cover as well. If you're really concerned about your wraithknights, you can always opt to reserve them. However, just keep in mind that it takes a lot to kill them. Even if your opponent was to drop a unit of sternguards with combi-meltas and go after your WK, chances are that he will survive if you place him in area terrain. Then next turn, your opponent can then say bye-bye to his 300+ pt sternguard unit.

If I add GK's to eldar, it isn't really out of necessity. Rather, I'd do it because I think they make for a fun combo. Wraithknights + dreadknight is definitely a fun combo. Coteaz + strikers do bring something to the army, though be aware that they are a rather static unit in an otherwise fast army (plus they are quite susceptible to the dragon CSM builds or riptide ion accelerators+markerlights).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lurker wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So when it comes to equipping Paladins/Termies, are Halberds still the way to go, or are swords better now? I'd think that with only one exception (Incubi), most things that hit at AP2 now go at the after you, and those few that do now (DPs, GDs, Genestealers, Avatar of Khaine) will still go before you even with the Halberds, or be I1 since you have the psyk-out grenades making I6 pointless, in which case you'd want the 4++ in case it survives your first round of attacks.

And wow I just realized something, anyone else think the Super high initiative of new Daemons/Avatar was created specifically in response to GK halberds?

I'm interested in people's thoughts on this post...

I'm finding that I'm liking hammers more and more. Now, I always try to maximize the number of hammers in my paladin builds. Maybe 1-2 halberds, 1-2 swords, 1 banner, 1 stave and the rest hammers in a 10-man Draigowing build. Why hammers? Because they are scary as sh*t. Opposing terminators, riptides, dreadknights, necron overlords and other 2+ opponents don't really care about the AP3 halberds or swords, but hammers will pound them to the ground. Halberds aren't fast enough anyways to strike above daemon princes and their kinds anyways unless you can get the charge in....but in that case, even the sword will strike at about the same time as the halberd due to psyk-out grenades. Swords IMO are better than halberds because now they let you tank a couple of enemy AP2 attacks before you have to allocate it on your other weapons. Stave is the best for such tanking purposes, but I don't normally put staves on anything less than a 10-man unit. So this is my preference: hammers > swords > halberds.

 jy2 wrote:
For mechdar, it really isn't that much of an issue. If you aren't going first, well, then it wouldn't really matter because strikers can't cast Warp Quake anyways. Coteaz's bubble will help, though I find it rather easy for drop pods to deploy out of his range (or at least for the crew to disembark out of his range).

I haven't used Wraithknights yet, so I was basing my concern on previous lists where I had trouble with Drop Pods landing on front of me. It wasn't the initial drop that was the issue, it was the fact that there was too much in my face for me to kill in one go. But I suppose I have forgotten that the Wraithknights make a good anti-drop deterrent.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
For mechdar, it really isn't that much of an issue. If you aren't going first, well, then it wouldn't really matter because strikers can't cast Warp Quake anyways. Coteaz's bubble will help, though I find it rather easy for drop pods to deploy out of his range (or at least for the crew to disembark out of his range).

I haven't used Wraithknights yet, so I was basing my concern on previous lists where I had trouble with Drop Pods landing on front of me. It wasn't the initial drop that was the issue, it was the fact that there was too much in my face for me to kill in one go. But I suppose I have forgotten that the Wraithknights make a good anti-drop deterrent.

Yeah, double-WK's are a great anti-drop deterent. I also run 50 guardians with rending shuriken catapults in my list (along with all that wave serpent firepower) which I will be more than happy to disembark to deal with any drop podding threats. So against those armies, I say, "come at me, bro and I will wipe your units off the table." Seriously, mechdar can easily survive against enemy alpha-strikes, which is one of the reasons why they are so good. And the rate of damage you can do to your opponent usually outpaces the amount of retalitorial damage he can do in return.

Put Coteaz and a dreadknight there and drop pod armies will be foolish to drop right on your doorsteps. However, IMO this may make the list slightly weaker against the more shooty builds and helturkey builds that don't really use any deepstriking units.

So turns out a Draigo deathstar can fold pretty quick when it gets hit with 3x armor save reductions from a warlock squad, ouch. Draigo and pals were at 5+ armor... and with huge torrent of fire, went down pretty quick in my game tonight. Oh well, it was the last turn and we still won (team apoc game).

The twin disruptor WK got a ton of kills, instant deathing another WK on its first shot of the first turn. That thing is a beast, but not so much in CC. A flyrant almost made mince-meat out of it until Draigo came to the rescue with a challenge.

So with Coteaz's special ability, do you shoot at a Mawloc before or after it does damage to you when it comes up out of the ground? Also, what the heck is the wound allocation for that? We just randomized it, so I lost a few Paladins to its S6 AP2 come-out-of-the-ground attack :(

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
So turns out a Draigo deathstar can fold pretty quick when it gets hit with 3x armor save reductions from a warlock squad, ouch. Draigo and pals were at 5+ armor... and with huge torrent of fire, went down pretty quick in my game tonight. Oh well, it was the last turn and we still won (team apoc game).

The twin disruptor WK got a ton of kills, instant deathing another WK on its first shot of the first turn. That thing is a beast, but not so much in CC. A flyrant almost made mince-meat out of it until Draigo came to the rescue with a challenge.

So with Coteaz's special ability, do you shoot at a Mawloc before or after it does damage to you when it comes up out of the ground? Also, what the heck is the wound allocation for that? We just randomized it, so I lost a few Paladins to its S6 AP2 come-out-of-the-ground attack :(

Don't forget Draigo still has his 3++ save even if his armor gets reduced. The seer council is also a reason why I run psyfleman dreadnoughts in my more balanced Draigowing list (I run dreadknights in my "fun" Draigowing list). Now those warlocks are casting on LD4 due to Reinforced Aegis and Draigo will get a 4+ Deny against them....pretty tough for them to use those psychic shenanigans against the knights.

You don't want to assault the WK into hordes or units that can beat him. He is not so much a close-combat beast (though he is above-average in assault) as he is a tarpit unit. Unfortunately, he can get tarpitted himself. What you want to do is to assault your WK and dreadknights into the stronger assault units and beat them with numbers. That's how you should play him.

With regards to the Mawloc, the mawloc hits take place first. He actually doesn't come out until your unit takes the hits and gets pushed out of the way of the large blast. Then the mawloc appears and you can shoot him with I've Been Expecting You. For wound allocation, it doesn't say. You'd just have to talk to your opponent about it. There's probably 2 ways most people would play it. The first is to randomize. The 2nd is to allocate the hits on the actual models touched by the blast marker. Just come to an agreement beforehand in your game.

But with some strike squad or interceptor, you can stop the Mawloc from coming at all

As for the armor save reduction, did he fail ALL his DnW? (with a LvL2 psyker and Aegis)?
Then yeah they can hurt in that case quite a lot (except if he placed Draigo well to tank as he would not care as much)

On the other hand, a SR would hurt the seerstar some as well

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
So turns out a Draigo deathstar can fold pretty quick when it gets hit with 3x armor save reductions from a warlock squad, ouch.

Maybe, but he'd have to be very lucky to roll that power on three of his guys, and he still has to start the turn within 18" of your guys.

sleekid wrote:But with some strike squad or interceptor, you can stop the Mawloc from coming at all

As for the armor save reduction, did he fail ALL his DnW? (with a LvL2 psyker and Aegis)?
Then yeah they can hurt in that case quite a lot (except if he placed Draigo well to tank as he would not care as much)

On the other hand, a SR would hurt the seerstar some as well

Yes, I did manage to fail all the DnW rolls, even the 4+ ones against the warlocks. Draigo's 3+ invuln couldn't hold up against the torrent of fire that came afterwards.

I need to look up Aegis again, evidently; don't even think I used it.

Evidently, it is still the same as before, in that it reduces their leadership. That really could have done some work against those Warlocks... damn.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
So turns out a Draigo deathstar can fold pretty quick when it gets hit with 3x armor save reductions from a warlock squad, ouch.

Maybe, but he'd have to be very lucky to roll that power on three of his guys, and he still has to start the turn within 18" of your guys.

Yes, he was very lucky that he rolled that, and he told me as much afterwards. He had his Warlocks and Spirit Seer inside of a Wave Serpent, moved up 6 in the serpent, dudes got out and moved up 6, then used powers. Pretty large threat range I'd say.

Maledictions are start-of-turn powers, and have to be used BEFORE you move. So if you're not within range at the start of the turn, you can't be affected that turn.

 Janthkin wrote:
Maledictions are start-of-turn powers, and have to be used BEFORE you move. So if you're not within range at the start of the turn, you can't be affected that turn.

Wow, totally didn't realize this. Well then...

Hi everyone

After a long time, I've finished painting my Grey knights army and I want to start playing in the local league (1500 pts), but I've no idea on how to build it properly.
I know I want to play paladins and psyfleman dreadnoughts (no dreadknights) just because how they look.

I see there's some draigowing experts here so I'm asking for advice to build a balanced list.


Thanks in advance.

Seizeman wrote:
Hi everyone

After a long time, I've finished painting my Grey knights army and I want to start playing in the local league (1500 pts), but I've no idea on how to build it properly.
I know I want to play paladins and psyfleman dreadnoughts (no dreadknights) just because how they look.

I see there's some draigowing experts here so I'm asking for advice to build a balanced list.


Thanks in advance.

jy2 is your man to speak to about current day Draigowing. I personally think they can still work, especially when paired with Coteaz' cheap Henchmen or Imperial Guard.

Seizeman wrote:
Hi everyone

After a long time, I've finished painting my Grey knights army and I want to start playing in the local league (1500 pts), but I've no idea on how to build it properly.
I know I want to play paladins and psyfleman dreadnoughts (no dreadknights) just because how they look.

I see there's some draigowing experts here so I'm asking for advice to build a balanced list.


Thanks in advance.

This is my abbreviated tactica on how to build a Draigowing army.

To play Draigowing successfully, you have to be aware of 2 main things:

1) Know your limitations. Build your army to address those limitations.

2) Your supporting units is probably just as important if not even more important that your "deathstar" unit.


1. Limitations:

As with any deathstar army - or an army that invests too heavily onto just 1 unit - they have some glaring weaknesses that can be exploited. You need to understand that in order to know how to compensate for your weaknesses. Some of the weaknesses of a Draigowing build include:

Slow. Lack of mobility.

Can only target 1 unit at a time.

Expensive deathstar. Thus, supporting units tend to be weak and vulnerable.

2. Supporting Units:

Do not go overboard on your "deathstar". The more you invest in your deathstar, the more unbalanced the army becomes. Just as important as the deathstar itself is the supporting units, or the units that you surround your deathstar with. Those units need to address the weaknesses of the deathstar itself. I recommend that you spend at least as many points (or even more) on the supporting units than you do on the deathstar unit itself. Thus, at 1500, I don't believe a full 10-man paladinstar unit is viable as now the deathstar would be much, much more expensive than the supporting units.

In any case, your supporting units need to address the limitations of the deathstar:

Mobility. You need to address the lack of mobility of your deathstar. There are several options: henchmen in transports, deepstriking soladins (or single-paladin units, stormraven or allies.

You need to be able to target multiple units. For this reason, I like the psyfleman dreads as they have the range to soften up multiple units while your deathstar is advancing. Other viable units to help you deal with multiple targets include henchmen in transports or perhaps some allies.

As your deathstar is expensive, you need efficient supporting units. Many Draigowing armies run dreadknights but IMO, they aren't really efficient due to their costs. I wouldn't recommend these units unless you are playing at higher-points games (i.e. at least 1750 or higher). Instead, some of the more efficient units are henchmen in transports, Coteaz, soladins, psyfleman dreads and allies. The rule-of-thumb here is to keep the costs of your supporting units low.

Example of a 1500 Draigowing Army:

At 1500, I really don't want to go with a full-blown 10-man paladinstar as it really unbalances your army. Rather, I'm going to start with a 5-man unit. Also, I normally run necron allies to my Draigowing list, but at 1500, you will have to go very lean. For this example, I am going to use only Grey Knight units.

Also keep in mind that there are many ways to build a Draigowing army. This is just 1 build that I like. Adjust as you see fit.


HQ - 375-pts

Coteaz
Draigo

Coteaz will unlock henchmen as troops. Moreover, he is a great utility character that can only make your army better.


TROOPS - 515-pts

5x Paladins - 2x Psycannons, Banner, 3x Hammers, 1x Sword - 340

1x Paladin - Hammer - 55

3x Crusaders, 5x Deathcult Assassins - 120

Soladin (1x Paladin units) will deepstrike to give me some mobility. You can control their coming in from reserves to an extent with Draigo's Psychic Communion. The Deathcults + Crusaders (whom I shall refer to as the Battle Conclave) are the shock troops that I will put in my Stormraven. You can put Coteaz with the paladins or with the Battle Conclave.


FAST ATTACK - 205-pts

Stormraven - TL-Multi-melta, TL-Assault Cannons

The flyer gives me some more mobility as well as a way to combat other flyers. Use Draigo's Psychic Communion to bring your raven in early.


HEAVY SUPPORT - 405-pts

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - 135
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - 135
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo - 135

If you need more scoring units, use Draigo's Grand Strategy to make your dreadnoughts scoring.

Total - 1500

Hey jy2, what are your thoughts on bike/jetbike support for Draigowing? I've been working on a few things at the 1750 level based on your tourney list, and I can't seem to decide if I want to invest more points in a strong bike unit, or divide it up into a bunch of weaker bike units.

The issue I'm having is that the bikes' maneuverability helps a lot more when the bikes actually bring some firepower to the table, but having more bike squads means more tactical flexibility for late-game objective grabs and (with jetbikes) more JSJ shenanigans.

So far I've theorycrafted some lists for Khan/Grav-gun bikes, Farseer w/ Windrunners, and just started looking into Ravenwing support. Still haven't found anything that brings "enough" support, but maybe my idea of "enough" is not reasonable.

 Xca|iber wrote:
So far I've theorycrafted some lists for Khan/Grav-gun bikes, Farseer w/ Windrunners, and just started looking into Ravenwing support. Still haven't found anything that brings "enough" support, but maybe my idea of "enough" is not reasonable.

Just a quick note; Khan only gives Scout when he is the Warlord, so in an allied detachment a Captain is probably better.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Xca|iber wrote:
So far I've theorycrafted some lists for Khan/Grav-gun bikes, Farseer w/ Windrunners, and just started looking into Ravenwing support. Still haven't found anything that brings "enough" support, but maybe my idea of "enough" is not reasonable.

Just a quick note; Khan only gives Scout when he is the Warlord, so in an allied detachment a Captain is probably better.

Interesting, I missed that part. Thanks for the heads up.

 Xca|iber wrote:
Hey jy2, what are your thoughts on bike/jetbike support for Draigowing? I've been working on a few things at the 1750 level based on your tourney list, and I can't seem to decide if I want to invest more points in a strong bike unit, or divide it up into a bunch of weaker bike units.

The issue I'm having is that the bikes' maneuverability helps a lot more when the bikes actually bring some firepower to the table, but having more bike squads means more tactical flexibility for late-game objective grabs and (with jetbikes) more JSJ shenanigans.

So far I've theorycrafted some lists for Khan/Grav-gun bikes, Farseer w/ Windrunners, and just started looking into Ravenwing support. Still haven't found anything that brings "enough" support, but maybe my idea of "enough" is not reasonable.

They're great! Exactly what a Draigowing build needs - mobile scoring. I don't have enough experience with marine bikers yet, but personally, I prefer eldar jetbikes instead. They are much faster with a 48" move that can go over terrain and other units. Moreover, they can shoot and then move afterwards. Also, with Eldar I can take a Wraithknight which then gives me options vs AV14.

Space marine bikers, however, do unlock the very good thunderfire cannons. However, while they are fast, their mobility is hampered somewhat by screening units that can force them to go around instead.

Most importantly, it really boils down to this....do you prefer Space Marine allies or Eldar allies? I think preference in army-style/play-style is what you should go for, not which army has the best units.

As for squad size, I wouldn't make it too big. They are quite susceptible to shooting and heldrakes if you make them too big and/or invest too many points in them. Personally, I'd rather keep my bike squads smallish and hide them, but if you really want them to contribute to your offense, I'd go no bigger than 5-6 bikers in a unit.

Here's what I managed to come up with after a bit of thinking:

HQ:
Coteaz - 100
Draigo - 275
Farseer, Singing Spear, Mantle, Jetbike - 160

Troops:
10x Paladins, 4x Psycannons, Apothecary, Banner, Stave - 750
1x Paladin - 55
5x Windrider Jetbikes, Shuricannon - 95

Fast Attack:
Crimson Hunter Exarch - 180

Heavy Support:
Psyrifleman - 135

I realize it's a bit light on psychic defense and anti-tank, and that the Mantleseer is vulnerable to sniping by S8+ Ignore Cover weapons (Tau, Divination, Melee, etc) but I think I can work around it. Hopefully the Crimson Hunter can make up for one less Psyrifleman, and the AP2 should help against TEQs while the Windriders can plink away MEQs with their "not-rending". (A problem I had with my previous 1750 list).

With 7 units (not including the flyer) I can theoretically hold off everything but the Paladinstar, giving some freedom with my reserve arrangements as well, so I retain as much tactical flexibility as I can without taking 2 squads of jetbikes.

Seizeman wrote:
(no dreadknights) just because how they look.

Check my gallery for a pretty easy fix of the horrendous Dreadknight model so that it looks more ok. It's a more streamlined version of what someone else did and posted on dakka (their name escapes me now). If you want details on the bits and whatnot let me know.

Drop the Exarch for a second Dread at least; a lone Dread is just roadkill and same for a lone Hunter. Use the rest of the points to get another Bike and split into two 3 man units.

I tried that initially, but it left me with 18 points and nowhere to spend them. I am loathe to just throw around useless upgrades, but I also don't want to shortchange myself if I don't have to.

The only thing I could think of was replacing the solodin with henchmen, since my usual opponents are very good at nailing them on arrival, regardless of how I try to hide them.

 Xca|iber wrote:
I tried that initially, but it left me with 18 points and nowhere to spend them. I am loathe to just throw around useless upgrades, but I also don't want to shortchange myself if I don't have to.

The only thing I could think of was replacing the solodin with henchmen, since my usual opponents are very good at nailing them on arrival, regardless of how I try to hide them.

18pts buys a 4th Jetbike for one of the 3 man squads.

Something more like this?

HQ: 
Coteaz - 100 
Draigo - 275 
Farseer, Singing Spear, Mantle, Jetbike - 160 

Troops: 
10x Paladins, 4x Psycannons, Apothecary, Banner, Stave - 750 
1x Paladin - 55
4x Windrider Jetbikes, Shuricannon - 78
3x Windrider Jetbikes, Shuricannon - 61 

Heavy Support: 
Psyrifleman, Searchlight - 135+1
Psyrifleman - 135

Looks better IMO.

Were the rules changed for Hurricane bolters in the latest Space Marines codex?

Was listening to a podcast and someone was referring to them as a salvo weapon or something now.

Thinking about breaking out the stormraven again, considering someone in my gaming group will likely be fielding several vendettas and heldrakes.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Were the rules changed for Hurricane bolters in the latest Space Marines codex?

Was listening to a podcast and someone was referring to them as a salvo weapon or something now.

Thinking about breaking out the stormraven again, considering someone in my gaming group will likely be fielding several vendettas and heldrakes.

No, hurricane bolters are still the same. Perhaps they are talking about the Grav-guns?

The stormraven imo is becoming popular again due to high amount of psychic armies. Even I'm starting to run one in my pure Draigowing list (though not in my NecroKnights GK/Necron army).






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xca|iber wrote:
Something more like this?
HQ: 
Coteaz - 100 
Draigo - 275 
Farseer, Singing Spear, Mantle, Jetbike - 160 

Troops: 
10x Paladins, 4x Psycannons, Apothecary, Banner, Stave - 750 
1x Paladin - 55
4x Windrider Jetbikes, Shuricannon - 78
3x Windrider Jetbikes, Shuricannon - 61 

Heavy Support: 
Psyrifleman, Searchlight - 135+1
Psyrifleman - 135

I'm not a fan of the Mantleseer (I call him the Laughseer ) in this list. Why? Because there isn't much for him to buff up. His primary buffing powers are Guide and Prescience. Well, the bikers are already twin-linked and the knights can't benefit from it. None of his powers can really help out the knights besides Misfortune, but your chances of getting even that isn't very reliable. Basically, the jetseer isn't a very good force-multiplier when there isn't anything really for him to force-multiply.

Instead, in such a list, I much prefer the Laughtarch (Autarch on Jetbike with Mantle, Fusion Gun and Laser Lance). He's a very fast threat all on his own and can pick off vehicles and non-combat specialist units. Moreover, his ability to manipulate reserves (i.e. the jetbikes) comes in very handy. He's a much better fit for your list than the Mantleseer.

Thanks for catching that jy2. I had initially gone with the Farseer because I assumed he would be with a bigger squad of bikes. Must have had a brain fart when I started handing out the Mantle - totally forgot that Autarchs could take it too.

I want to add some fuel to the fire.

I played a Draigowing at the Feast of Blade Open and took 8th place in a four way tie. I went 4-2-0 without playing the army before. My list is as follows:

Draigo - 275

Coteaz - 100

*Paladin (x1) - 55
-Daemonhammer

*Paladin (x10) (750)
-4x Psycannon
-Apothecary Upgrade
-Brotherhood Banner
-Psibolt Ammo
-3x Daemonhammers
-2x Force Swords
-Rest Halberds


*Henchmen Warband (15)
-3 Acolytes , 3 Bolters

*Henchmen Warband (15)
-3 Acolytes , 3 Bolters

*Henchmen Warband (30)
-6 Acolytes , 6 Bolters

*Henchmen Warband (30)
-6 Acolytes , 6 Bolters

*Nms Dreadknight (235)
-Hvy Incinerator , Pers Teleporter

*Nms Dreadknight (235)
-Hvy Incinerator , Pers Teleporter

*Nms Dreadknight (260)
-Hvy Incinerator, Pers Teleporter , Nms Greatsword


I made some mistakes, but gave a lot of my opponents hard games. My losses were to a White Scare gravity gun spam army, which I was in it to draw on Turn 5 with two dreadknights left... sadly I didn't do enough damage on turn 5 and it went to 6. I also lost to a Nurgle Daemon Prince flying circus army, but I made gameplay mistakes there.

The armies I did beat were two blood angles players, a blood angels/imperial fist list featuring a nasty unit of 4 Grav Cents, Corbulo, and Lysander (UGH!), and another flying circus. I barely beat the grav cent army with three acolytes hiding on 2 objectives and the game ended on Turn 5...

Dreadknights need to be super committed; you have to go all three. I faced a BA army with two storm ravens and was able to tank the blood strike missiles and force one to snapfire each turn due to a lucky "I've Been Expecting You" moment and just lots of snapfiring prescienced psycannons.

@TheKbob

Awesome, man. Great job!

How big was the Open? About how many players? I actually know the winner of the Open and have played against his bikers twice, though that was before the new Space Marines codex.

Did you encounter a lot of flyers? One of my concerns with regards to this type of list is how do one deal with flyers? That's why I included necron allies in my list. That's also why I went for a more shooty GK build with psyfleman dreads over the dreadknights.

Once again, congrats!

jy2,

Open was about 45, maybe 50 players? That gravguns army is just not very nice. Bikes shouldn't be allowed gravity guns in my opinion because of the relentless + 12" move + 18" reach of salvo 3. Just a bit much and only further goes to invalidate terminators. Guy playing it (and winner of Feast) is a good guy. I am happy the army he'd been playing for so long turned around to be good

Not a whole lot of flyers in terms of vehicles. Just one list with two storm ravens. I used my scoring dreadknights to shunt on the relic, which was on a LARGE LOS blocking terrain piece, so large my dreadknights could hide behind it with my paladin star. I applied pressure with a third dreadknight which ate some bloodstrike missiles and I killed the other one on snapfired psycannons before it could loose it's payload. They're tough, for sure. I did ignore a vindicator all game, though. It could only clip my paladin star bases (mainly Draigos since it was bigger than normal). Never wounded with it.

Maybe if there was a bigger flyer spam list, I could have struggled? At that point, I ignore them and press forward. Crimson Hunters are scary, but I'd make them swiss cheese. Vendettas and Storm Ravens are my only true fear. I could see how a few psyflmen could help. Then again, I found that the pressure of three jumping dreadknights was enough to make people panic. They would the focus on the dreadsknights and leave my paladins to advance... much to their dismay late in the game.

Sadly, as gravity becomes more prevalent, it's going to further halt all 2+ save stuff outside of TH/SS termies, I think. Those weapons are a solution to a problem that didn't exist. The real issue is taking down MCs not terminators.

BTW, here is my game against Captn Dee, winner of the FoB Open, and back before all that grav-gun nonsense (lol....j.k.). It was back when the CSM codex just came out and I was giving it a test-spin. Gasp! Yeah, I know....heresy. But there's just something cool about running a lot of zombies. BTW, I only had 1 helturkey back then.


40K Video Bat Rep: Jy2′s Chaos vs. Capt’n Dees’ Biker Marines 1750 BAO Practice Game

 TheKbob wrote:
jy2,

Open was about 45, maybe 50 players? That gravguns army is just not very nice. Bikes shouldn't be allowed gravity guns in my opinion because of the relentless + 12" move + 18" reach of salvo 3. Just a bit much and only further goes to invalidate terminators. Guy playing it (and winner of Feast) is a good guy. I am happy the army he'd been playing for so long turned around to be good

Not a whole lot of flyers in terms of vehicles. Just one list with two storm ravens. I used my scoring dreadknights to shunt on the relic, which was on a LARGE LOS blocking terrain piece, so large my dreadknights could hide behind it with my paladin star. I applied pressure with a third dreadknight which ate some bloodstrike missiles and I killed the other one on snapfired psycannons before it could loose it's payload. They're tough, for sure. I did ignore a vindicator all game, though. It could only clip my paladin star bases (mainly Draigos since it was bigger than normal). Never wounded with it.

Maybe if there was a bigger flyer spam list, I could have struggled? At that point, I ignore them and press forward. Crimson Hunters are scary, but I'd make them swiss cheese. Vendettas and Storm Ravens are my only true fear. I could see how a few psyflmen could help. Then again, I found that the pressure of three jumping dreadknights was enough to make people panic. They would the focus on the dreadsknights and leave my paladins to advance... much to their dismay late in the game.

Sadly, as gravity becomes more prevalent, it's going to further halt all 2+ save stuff outside of TH/SS termies, I think. Those weapons are a solution to a problem that didn't exist. The real issue is taking down MCs not terminators.

Grav guns are actually also an answer to MC. Riptides fold like laundry on Sunday to grav weapons if they do not use their nova charger to boot to a 3++ and I have never seen a Tau player choose resilience over shooting. They also mow through WK, DP, and tyranid monsters because you are now wounding on a 3+ and completely negate that high toughness they pay so much for.

I play bikes and have been for a while, and I think the new dex white scar's list are better than any previous biker army SM could do, but it ultimately still suffer from the same hard counters as they did before (Helldrakes, and Poison spam). Fortunately for the bikes, Tau, Eldar, and the constant internet declarations that CSM sucks has largely removed the 2+ helldrake lists from the top meta. Hopefully, there will be enough SM players that are willing to go around 4-2 at tournaments to be a serious deterent to the 3+ riptide lists and serpent spam lists that we don't see 7 of the top 10 lists at GT being some combination of tau/elder/ally of choice.

Any new discoveries since last Tuesday?

Hey there guys! I haven't been in the hobby for the three last months and I 'll play tomorrow against SW at 2k points and Raven Guard at 1.5 (different games )

I was thinking to use the following list(s) :

Hq:
Coteaz 100

Elites:
Vindicare Assassin 145
Techmarine w/ Power Axe , Rad grenades 100
10x Purifiers w/ 4x Incinerators , 5x Halberds , 1x Hammer 255

Troops:
10x GKSS w/ 2x Psycannons , 7x Swords , 1x Hammer , Psybolts 250
10x GKSS w/ 2x Psycannons , 7x Swords , 1x Hammer , Psybolts 250
1st Henchmen Unit : 3x plasma cannon servitors , 2x space monkeys , 7x bolter warrior acolytes 165 (Coteaz joins them)
2nd Henchmen Unit: 3x bolter warrior acolytes in a Lascannon Razorback w/ dozer blade 100
3rd Henchmen Unit: 3x bolter warrior acolytes in a Lascannon Razorback w/ dozer blade 100

Heavy Support:
Dreadnought w/ 2x TL Autocannons , Psybolts 135
Dreadnought w/ 2x TL Autocannons , Psybolts 135
Landraider Redeemer w/ Psyfalmes , Psybolts 265 (here goes the Purifiers Unit + Techmarine)

For the Raven Guard game which I already told you that it 'll be at 1,5k points I 'm considering not to include the 2x GKSS . For your info there aren't a lot of flyers in my local meta so that's why there aren't AA choices in the list(s) .. Also Purifiers + the Redeemer upgrades are more for the flavor as I know there are more competitive units but I can't help it right know

As I 'm playing with friends the only actual problem I see for the Landraider are the melta guns on their tactical squads (SW) and the sternguard unit (for Ravens) which 'll come via drop pods but if I go first I'll warp quake and if not I'll put it near Coteaz's unit ... Also MSU is the way to go for GKSS (and maybe DS one of them) because both of their list will probably include a Vindicator ...

Anyway this is more of a fun list but I thought to share my thoughts and also greet all of you as I haven't been around these last months

P.S : Comment and Critique always welcome

New FW FAQs are out and there are new rules for Red Hunters Chapter which are Battle Brothers with Grey Knights; gives us some more options for FW environments.

anyone have the low down on what BB allies we get from FW?

just won bet overall at a tourny with my GK's,

everyone nicknamed my army the "shunt punch"

1500pts,
coteaz,
27 bolter henchmen,
20 interceptors 2 psybolts
3 DK's w teleporter+Hincinerator.


massacred everyone, mainly due to me out manuvering people ... even eldar serpent spam was crushed....


very happy with how manuverable this list is, and how I can feint opponents one way, and go the other.

can also have almost everything in CC turn 2, so lots of tactics involved with this list, it is NOT a list for those who dont want to have to think about every move, 2 turns in advance lol.

 easysauce wrote:
anyone have the low down on what BB allies we get from FW?

Space Marines with the Red Hunters Chapter Tactics, as I said in the post right above yours.

I haven't really done much thinking on it but it seems better to use Red Hunters with an ally detachment of GKs. Run Coteaz(or a generic inquisitor) maybe stick a chaplain with DCA, or a unit of paladins. Unless you want to a unit or two of henchmen with melts/plasma. Though on the other hand you could have an detachment of Red Hunters on bikes with a command squad maxed on grav guns. Thoughts?

What a great thread for any GK player. Keep it going

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
anyone have the low down on what BB allies we get from FW?

Space Marines with the Red Hunters Chapter Tactics, as I said in the post right above yours.

sry it is unclear what i meant,

but its just that one chapter then it sounds like, i dont know what those tactics do, but basically just means we have one BB in the SM codex i guess

The Red Hunters chapter tactics actually opens up a lot of interesting options. The other part of the tactics lets X units in their detachment gain a certain special rule on the Xth turn, once per game. You get to choose from a list of rules, and one of the options is Skyfire - so there might be some neat infantry options to deal with GK lack thereof by using this combo. Other options are Tank or Monster Hunters, Counter-Attack, Hatred, and Interceptor.

They also always have Adamantium Will all the time, so adding a character to a GK unit makes for exceptional psychic defense when combined with Aegis/Reinforced Aegis.

But as the rules for Red Hunters is written, they are only battle brothers as long as there is an inquisitor in the allied detachment. Which would mean that Red Hunters need to be main detachment.

athedge wrote:
But as the rules for Red Hunters is written, they are only battle brothers as long as there is an inquisitor in the allied detachment. Which would mean that Red Hunters need to be main detachment.

While this is true, it still adds plenty of options for Grey Knights, and is probably the better way to run it anyway at the moment. Remember you can really get a load of stuff into an allied detachment.

I wouldn't take the Inquisitor clause too seriously, it says they're Battle Brothers with Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle as long as an Inquisitor is present, but the Adepta Sororitas don't actually have Inquisitors in their codex so...?

They're generally more specific about when things only work when used as a primary detachment, too, so I wouldn't be surprised if that part of the paragraph is just sloppy, too.

Edit: To be clear, you guys are dead-on with respect to what's RAW correct, but I wouldn't be surprised if that paragraph got changed. It's not like the Inquisitor "tax" is actually a burden to us anyway given how very useful they are. Coteaz is in almost every army as it is, anyway.

I posted this in the Army List section too but I would also like to hear from everyone here about the following list , how to complete it and how competitive is/can be :

Hq:
Coteaz (divination) 100

Elites:
Vindicare Assassin 145
Techmarine w/ Conversion Beamer 110 (He is here for Bolster Defences ..I think )
Paladin Squad (10x) : 4x Psycannons + 3x Hammers + 3x Swords + 3x Halberds + Apothecary + Bro Banner + Psybolt Ammo 750

Troops:
1st Henchmen Squad (12x) : 3x Plasma Cannon Servitors + 2x Jakaero + 7x Bolter Warrior Acolytes 165 (Coteaz joins them)
2nd Henchmen Squad (3x) : 3x Bolter Warrior Acolytes in a TL Lascannon Razorback 95
3rd Henchmen Squad (3x) : 3x Bolter Warrior Acolytes in a TL Lascannon Razorback 95

Heavy Support:
Dreadnought w/ 2x TL Autocannons + Psybolt Ammo 135
Dreadnought w/ 2x TL Autocannons + Psybolt Ammo 135

Now , the above Units come at 1730 points so... there are 270 points left .. That makes me think "Oh! I have Paladins in there , won't Drago be a good addition in there?" And surely it is but I was thinking that for 200 points I can include a lvl 3 Librarian with codex power (requires to pay something like 20 more points for 4 powers) or divination for Primaris + 2x Random powers every round .. And if I go the Divination road won't it be better to add an Ordo Malleus Inq who can bring Divination + his own psycannon for only 110 points instead ??

As I already told you before I want your opinions on this matter and if by going one way or another how competitive this list is / or can be ??

(Just for your info I 'm considering the Libi choice but maybe that's because of the converted miniature which looks damn good )

The convential wisdom is that the vindicare assassin is not competitive. It isn't horrible, but it isn't competitive. Too many points for a model that dies fairly easily (even in bolstered cover). Ditto for the Techmarine. Too expensive for what he brings.

Also I don't think you have enough troops. You'll be in a lot of trouble in objective games. With your list you pretty much need Draigo or a Grand Master just to give yourself more troop options....

I thought it would probably be better to resurrect this than to make a new thread for my question.

So, what is the state of the Meta at the moment in terms of Grey Knights. I've been out of the hobby for over a year now, so I would appreciate any updates on how Grey Knights are now played. Army Lists, strengths, weaknesses, any help at all would be appreciated.

Thanks, RaptorsTallon

Not too much has changed over the past year, other than AV14 coming back as another valid army strat to add to our already good army strats. Unfortunately, that means that we are still 2nd Tier at best, and with the addition of the Inquisition codex, a couple of our good strats have migrated to other armies. The upside is, we can now double-down on Inquisition units, if that's your fancy.

Rest assured, with the current meta upheaval the game is going through, the GK flexibility in army strats is still very much a strength, its just not Eldar-Tau-Daemons strong, despite GKs having the only viable hard counter to 2++/re-rollabe Deathstars in our Mindstrike Missiles. As it stands, play the list you want play, play to the mission, and enjoy the challenge of today's chaotic meta!

SJ

Pretty good actually. Forgeworld has done a lot for GK giving them SM allies called red hunters and new units in IA2ed2.

I can also see the new Knights helping out GK a bit, as it'll certainly take a lot of heat off our infantry and provides very reliable AT at range and in melee. Yes, they're expensive, but I'm looking forward to bringing my GK out of retirement alongside a Knight, just to see how it goes.

 Paradigm wrote:
I can also see the new Knights helping out GK a bit, as it'll certainly take a lot of heat off our infantry and provides very reliable AT at range and in melee. Yes, they're expensive, but I'm looking forward to bringing my GK out of retirement alongside a Knight, just to see how it goes.

I had the same thought.

Still playing my GK against Tau/Eldar, and as pointed out above, Mindstrike missiles are great against daemons. They're not 5th ed strong, but still doable. Jy2 has several battle reports and some threads on his GK and GK/Necron successes.

I had the same thought when I saw the knights, maybe I'll add one once I've built the army up a bit.

The Grey Knights have actually been hurt recently at the competitive level. 2 of their more popular tournament builds currently are Draigowing and/or triple-dreadknight builds. Then Space Marines came out and screwed that all up with their grav-guns. One of their pre-eminent tournament builds are grav-gun White Scars. That army is both a counter to GK and Tau 2+ builds. So if you run MEQ-spam GK's (3+ models), you have to watch out for Chaos heldrake builds. If you run TEQ GK's (2+ models), now you have to watch out for Space Marines biker armies. I'm beginning to think that Inquisition with 3 stormravens is the way to go for competitive GK's. After all, they die all the same to heldrakes or grav-guns. Lol.

And it sucks that now almost every one can take Coteaz and Inquisitors. They used to be our "secret" weapons....but not anymore. Sigh.

But that shall not deter me from running what I want to run. I love me some paladins.

We've been running a small tourney in my flgs and I haven't really used Purifiers before this. And man, I completely understand why they use to be so dominant. Two of my opponents were completely unprepared for them. I usually run them in a rhino or a in stormraven with coteaz. I completely love the fact they can assault after disembarking a stormraven. So nasty.

Which leads me to some questions.

Can paladins take dedicated transports like the land raider/stormraven, if so why haven't we seem some paladin/ Landraider builds? Too many points?

There isn't a single unit (including paladins) that can take LR as dedicated transport . They can of course start the game inside one ..The main reason (IMO) of not seeing Paladins using LR is that they can deep strike anywhere plus the fact that you 'll probably run them with Draigo who make's them count as units ..Now Draigowind has... Draigo of course to absorb everything with his stor shield plus he's Eternal Warrior plus you 'll probably run an Apothecary (or maybe not ) plus you can LoS... So for the above reasons you want them on their feet shooting their 4x Psycannons plus 5x Storm bolters plus Holocaust ...

And yeah it's pretty expensive .. I haven't seen anyone in my local meta using them with a LR .. Maybe it's a sound strategy .. I don't think so .. but maybe it is ..

Hope I helped !!

Paladins have no dedicated transports, though you can certainly fit them in stormravens or landraiders. The only problem is that the points add up very quickly. With paladins, I recommend more models as opposed to more vehicles.


Also, I'm going to take my Crowe-Purifiers out for another spin. Haven't played them in ages (ever since 6E first came out). I'll keep you guys posted on their progress.

So far I have only used 4x incinerators on my purifiers, and they have worked well against nids and orks. Wall of death worked quite well, i know it's unconventional form the usual Psycannon spam, but I wanted to try something different.

I just recently acquired another dread knight, and it certainly makes a difference when fielding two Dk's. I would like three but that is just a ton of points.

Is three rly that good or is it just depending on certain events.

 Spectral wrote:
There isn't a single unit (including paladins) that can take LR as dedicated transport . They can of course start the game inside one ..The main reason (IMO) of not seeing Paladins using LR is that they can deep strike anywhere plus the fact that you 'll probably run them with Draigo who make's them count as units ..Now Draigowind has... Draigo of course to absorb everything with his stor shield plus he's Eternal Warrior plus you 'll probably run an Apothecary (or maybe not ) plus you can LoS... So for the above reasons you want them on their feet shooting their 4x Psycannons plus 5x Storm bolters plus Holocaust ...

And yeah it's pretty expensive .. I haven't seen anyone in my local meta using them with a LR .. Maybe it's a sound strategy .. I don't think so .. but maybe it is ..

Hope I helped !!

I agree - 10 Paladins with an Apothecary and Draigo out front is still soooo funny. If you put them on a midfield objective or drop them next to something that needs to die (so long as you don't scatter them into oblivion) you can pretty much guarantee that the other player will pour fire into them and not get very far or just ignore them completely while you fire 4 psycannons per turn and chuckle.

If you get shot from multiple angles and can't allocate to Drago things start to fall apart, however.

Hey people!!

Speaking of Purifiers in a 1k points game would you take the Crow tax or its for bigger games? If the answer is yes then how many Purifier Squads would you take ? MSU or not ?

Secondly can anyone clarify the atks a Techmarine gets with servo arms? Does the 2x "specialist weapon" gives him +1 Atk? (No one bothers with a similar thread of mine .... sadly )

 Spectral wrote:
Hey people!!

Speaking of Purifiers in a 1k points game would you take the Crow tax or its for bigger games? If the answer is yes then how many Purifier Squads would you take ? MSU or not ?

Secondly can anyone clarify the atks a Techmarine gets with servo arms? Does the 2x "specialist weapon" gives him +1 Atk? (No one bothers with a similar thread of mine .... sadly )

I would leave Crowe at home for smaller games, you really need to spam the absolute crap out of 10 man purifier squads with 4 psycannons each to make the most of having to take him with you. Coteaz is probably your best HQ choice in a smaller game, as he's cheap and unlocks even cheaper troop units...

As for the techmarine, each servo arm grants one extra close combat attack, on top of his base attack and whatever you might add for a charge (4 on the charge then). I don't think RAI meant to give him the two extra plus another for having two specialist weapons.

With the new FaQs (version 1.5 of September ) the servo arm has changed and became : s x2 ap 1 melee , unwieldy , specialist weapon .. the original text of the codex has changed totally so no extra 2 atks and no "ignores armor saves" .. So you can attack either with your power/nemesis weapon OR the servo arm .. At least that's what I understand

P.S I thought that Crowe + Purifiers cost a lot in a 1k game but wanted to know what everyone else thinks

I was looking back at past battle reports and a member had great success at 1000 and 1500 points of straight up

Crowe

5 purifiers, 2 psycannons, 1 hammer in a rhino x3-x5 and usually two or three Psyrifle dreads.
I have a 1500 pt tourney coming up and was thinking of just doing that.

Just had 2 games with my Crowe-Purifiers. I haven't ran them in a long, long time....ever since 6th Ed. just came out. Unlike 5E where they were dominating, in this edition so far, I've actually lost more than I have won with them.

In any case, the games were at 1850:


Crowe

2x5 Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, Hammer, Rhino
2x5 Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, Warding Stave, Rhino
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo

Stormraven - TL-AC, TL-MM, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolt Ammo

3x Psyfleman Dreads w/Searchlights


Game #1 was against Dakka's very own mod, Janthkin. He ran Dakka Flyrant, Tyranid Prime, 2x2 Hive Guards, Venomthrope, Tervigon + 30 gants, 18 Toxic Genestealers, Hive Crone, Exocrine, Mawloc and Bastion w/Quad-guns. Not really an optimized list, but he was just getting a feel for the new bugs.

His bugs actually gave me a lot of trouble. I had 1st turn but couldn't kill anything due to H&A deployment and his venomthrope hiding and giving his MC's 2+ cover behind ruins. He then got First Blood by blowing away one of my rhinos with his hive guards. As a matter of fact, by Turn 3 all my rhinos were dead.

However the turning point came when I shot down his tervigon on Turn 4. His 30 gants then proceeded to fail IB next turn and run off the board, leaving his genestealers stuck in combat with my dread as his only scoring unit left. I eventually killed off his stealers thanks to Cleansing Flame and ended up winning on objectives.



Game #2 was against an IG/Dark Angels Deathstar army. My opponent was running a nasty Ogryn deathstar with Primaris Psyker, Azrael, Sammuel, Coteaz and Inquisitor w/Rad + Psyka-broke grenades along with 5x5 marines in drop pods and 1 veteran squad. I just couldn't kill his deathstar and only managed to kill 5-6 ogryns in the end as well as a few wounds on his characters. At the end, he killed all my troops and I kill all of his troops except for the veterans. However, they were out of position with regards to the objectives. Moreover, I was lucky that Crowe was scoring due to his Warlord trait so I ended up taking 1 objective with him to 0 for my opponent. It was another tough battle but I managed to eke it out.


Crowe-Purifiers are still good against certain armies. However, the weakness of mech-spam clearly showed in my games. Currently, Crowe-Purifier GK's have gone from a top-tier army (since 5th Ed.) to a middle to lower-upper tiered army at best. But I still enjoy playing them and that is all that really matters to me.

I'm interested as to why you added some Strikes, and not straight up purifiers. Warp Quake?

More bodies + more shooting. Right now marines die too easily in this day and age of held rakes and VoF armies. You need the bodies.