Marker light rippling is a great idea, but without4-6 markerlights in one unit, your chances of getting enough to remove covers saves is very low. I for one don't believe the rippling effect really works, without wasting a lot of fire power on the same target.
That's why I think a good Tau army should spread out its markerlights. Don't just have them in 1 or 2 units....they can be wiped out too easily. For the Tau list that I am thinking of, I put my Commander and his 2 marker drones with a unit of marker drones (all for some BS5 goodness!). I also use a unit of pathfinders and put marker drones in my 2 units of suits. That's 4 (potentially 5 units of markerlights if my commander splits off and joins another unit). I'm even considering giving my broadsides markerlight instead of shield drones. This creates what Yakface describes as a Markerlight Rippling effect. It also adds redudancy to your markerlight sources.
I've had some good success with my dronelight commander as well but I also really like messing around with the iridium FnP commander. In one list, I went with a iridium bodyguard rush accompanied by a necron D.lord +wraithstar. It was basically 2 fairly deadly and generally survivable and extremely fast deathstars (well not that much of a deathstar as I didn't have too many bodies or upgrades on either group other than the needed ones but was still pretty hefty for points) Basically all of those guys rushing down with tau fusion blasters to handle transports/high AV targets and necrons to sweep them in assault (sometimes I'd want the tau command squad in as well with vectored jets but generally not bothered with the points but I always wanted to try).
Certainly not all comers but was very fun and fits in my backpack easier to trasport as it was so few models lol.
phew, finally got around to updating this thing. I wasn't even all done with testing Tau and now Eldar drops. Already have had several games vs the new Eldar and they are a tough match for us to beat if built and played right.
Just some initial thoughts:
Tons of AP2/rending really hurt.
The DK can punch a wraith knight to death pretty easily with str 10 force weapons but in general will walk away taking some 2 wounds on average
Mechdar is making me retink the heavy psycannon.
Volume of fire is pretty nutty with wave serpents and warwalkers with so much twin linking
Crusaders are very much one of my favorite henchmen now lol
The amount of bolters needed to take down a wraith guard unit is pretty crazy. 6 man wraith guard with D-scythes and in a fast wave serpent with shields up is really tough to stop without assaulting and then eating flamers.
Psycannons are still pretty effective against almost all Eldar units though surviving the return fire can be pretty tough
I'm just wondering how to make my marines with psycannons live long enough to use them now a days as between Tau Ion Accelerator AP2 pie plates and long distance Eldar shooting or heldrake flamers, I'm not surviving well at all and really making me give up the purifiers or paladins as an effective force.
sudojoe wrote: phew, finally got around to updating this thing. I wasn't even all done with testing Tau and now Eldar drops. Already have had several games vs the new Eldar and they are a tough match for us to beat if built and played right.
Just some initial thoughts:
Tons of AP2/rending really hurt.
The DK can punch a wraith knight to death pretty easily with str 10 force weapons but in general will walk away taking some 2 wounds on average
Mechdar is making me retink the heavy psycannon.
Volume of fire is pretty nutty with wave serpents and warwalkers with so much twin linking
Crusaders are very much one of my favorite henchmen now lol
The amount of bolters needed to take down a wraith guard unit is pretty crazy. 6 man wraith guard with D-scythes and in a fast wave serpent with shields up is really tough to stop without assaulting and then eating flamers.
Psycannons are still pretty effective against almost all Eldar units though surviving the return fire can be pretty tough
I'm just wondering how to make my marines with psycannons live long enough to use them now a days as between Tau Ion Accelerator AP2 pie plates and long distance Eldar shooting or heldrake flamers, I'm not surviving well at all and really making me give up the purifiers or paladins as an effective force.
Tell me about it. I've been on a 6-month hiatus, and come back to 3 new 'dexes in that time period. And I've been losing every single game I've played. Just as a request/suggestion, could you highlight the bits of the first post where you made the latest changes, like how GW does with their FAQs? Thanks!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, one thing:
(Can put a servoskull all the way in the enemy corner but still in their backfield and with pre-measuring, you just have to be 7' from a table edge and you'll be in good shape.)
As a heads' up that you cannot put a servoskull in the enemy's deployment zone.
If you happen to kill everything off a quad gun, the dreadnaught can actually take over the gun too.
It's been FAQed that vehicles cannot man gun emplacements anymore. :(
Hello people!! New player with GK three questions emerged from reading the tactica...
a) Isn't Mordrack a "character" (not an independent character I mean) so how can you join a librarian in his unit? If that's possible you can also join an independent character to Crow?? (yeah I know noob question)
b)In the thread I also red that "teleport hommer" isn't working with "the summoning" codex power..why?? In the codex clarifies that with summoning the unit arrives with the DS rules ..Is there something in the FAQs that says that hommer doesn't work with summoning? Cause I saw nothing like this..
c) except Librarian and Inqs can anyone (e.x grand -master ) chooses to acquire rulebook (e.x divination) psyckic powers?? In the FAQs says no but in forums I see a lot of people that claim you can ...Do I read something wrong maybe??
Sorry if this isn't the place to post my questions
Spectral wrote: Hello people!! New player with GK three questions emerged from reading the tactica...
a) Isn't Mordrack a "character" (not an independent character I mean) so how can you join a librarian in his unit? If that's possible you can also join an independent character to Crow?? (yeah I know noob question)
b)In the thread I also red that "teleport hommer" isn't working with "the summoning" codex power..why?? In the codex clarifies that with summoning the unit arrives with the DS rules ..Is there something in the FAQs that says that hommer doesn't work with summoning? Cause I saw nothing like this..
c) except Librarian and Inqs can anyone (e.x grand -master ) chooses to acquire rulebook (e.x divination) psyckic powers?? In the FAQs says no but in forums I see a lot of people that claim you can ...Do I read something wrong maybe??
Sorry if this isn't the place to post my questions
Thanks in advance !!
a. You can attach multiple characters to a unit.
b. Read the entry again. Teleport homer only works for deepstriking via teleport. The second last sentence of the second paragraph of the Teleport Homer entry on pg. 62 explicitly states that. The Summoning is not a teleport deepstrike.
Going to be starting at a 40k Escalation League this Saturday. I want to take Coteaz + Strike Knights but I don't have the models. I decided to play Draigowing instead and I still can't decide whether the Apothecary is worth it or not. What do you guys think?
Red Comet wrote: Going to be starting at a 40k Escalation League this Saturday. I want to take Coteaz + Strike Knights but I don't have the models. I decided to play Draigowing instead and I still can't decide whether the Apothecary is worth it or not. What do you guys think?
I'd also like to hear people's thoughts on loadout for a squad of 10. What do you arm them with in the current 6th edition competitive metagame?
sudojoe wrote: phew, finally got around to updating this thing. I wasn't even all done with testing Tau and now Eldar drops. Already have had several games vs the new Eldar and they are a tough match for us to beat if built and played right.
Just some initial thoughts:
Tons of AP2/rending really hurt.
The DK can punch a wraith knight to death pretty easily with str 10 force weapons but in general will walk away taking some 2 wounds on average
Mechdar is making me retink the heavy psycannon.
Volume of fire is pretty nutty with wave serpents and warwalkers with so much twin linking
Crusaders are very much one of my favorite henchmen now lol
The amount of bolters needed to take down a wraith guard unit is pretty crazy. 6 man wraith guard with D-scythes and in a fast wave serpent with shields up is really tough to stop without assaulting and then eating flamers.
Psycannons are still pretty effective against almost all Eldar units though surviving the return fire can be pretty tough
I'm just wondering how to make my marines with psycannons live long enough to use them now a days as between Tau Ion Accelerator AP2 pie plates and long distance Eldar shooting or heldrake flamers, I'm not surviving well at all and really making me give up the purifiers or paladins as an effective force.
Tell me about it. I've been on a 6-month hiatus, and come back to 3 new 'dexes in that time period. And I've been losing every single game I've played. Just as a request/suggestion, could you highlight the bits of the first post where you made the latest changes, like how GW does with their FAQs? Thanks!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, one thing:
(Can put a servoskull all the way in the enemy corner but still in their backfield and with pre-measuring, you just have to be 7' from a table edge and you'll be in good shape.)
As a heads' up that you cannot put a servoskull in the enemy's deployment zone.
If you happen to kill everything off a quad gun, the dreadnaught can actually take over the gun too.
It's been FAQed that vehicles cannot man gun emplacements anymore. :(
Thanks for the pick ups! I'll go fix them now =)
Incidentially I just added the GW thing and use violet for updated changes
Red Comet wrote: Going to be starting at a 40k Escalation League this Saturday. I want to take Coteaz + Strike Knights but I don't have the models. I decided to play Draigowing instead and I still can't decide whether the Apothecary is worth it or not. What do you guys think?
I'd also like to hear people's thoughts on loadout for a squad of 10. What do you arm them with in the current 6th edition competitive metagame?
The Apothecary isn't worth it unless your meta is filled with plasma equivalent shooting out the wazoo. The load out for 10 would be 4 psycannons, 1 banner, 6 halberd, 4 hammers. This is how I play them. GM with a psycannon and a inquisitor with a psycannon is also just for the lulz if you want to be a real killy deathstar. 24 psycannon shoots makes the unit kinda rediculous
Red Comet wrote: Going to be starting at a 40k Escalation League this Saturday. I want to take Coteaz + Strike Knights but I don't have the models. I decided to play Draigowing instead and I still can't decide whether the Apothecary is worth it or not. What do you guys think?
I'd also like to hear people's thoughts on loadout for a squad of 10. What do you arm them with in the current 6th edition competitive metagame?
I personally use that death star as a suicide squad but that's just me. I've mostly just had them charge forward and everyone almost always tries to kill them all. Before the new Eldar and Tau, this was kind of hard to do for most lists but it's gotten pretty tough for these guys to survive ever since after the daemons codex changed things a lot and now it's gotten pretty silly. I've lost the whole thing after turn 2 against one double riptide tau list for example.
They are there to soak firepower while coteaz sits back on objectivs with solodins and cheap henchmen to cap objectives. Hence I just make them as killy as possible while avoiding too many upgrades so they will still be a threat and get people's attention. Scout up ahead now and get lit up like crazy. Despite saying all of that, I still take an apothecary just because I tend to attract a metric ton of small arms fire from most any enemy I come across and while there are certainly a lot of lances/railguns/meltas/fire lances you will see, Having them in people's face/deployment zone and not all dead is what I think JY2 would call positional dominance as I'm fixing to keep the fire off my actual objective holding units.
Sudojoe, what's your thoughts on this? Since LRs are no longer a viable option of delivering a Crusader/DCA or Paladin deathstar, having them inside a Stormraven instead kitted out similarly (the flying LR Crusader way). I was looking at doing this and having a Librarian attached with the usual powers and The Summoning. Dreadknight sitting in the back of my field with Psycannon and Incinerator, and once the Librarian gets to their backfield, do a Summoning on the DK (Less accurate and less utility than a Teleport Pack, but far cheaper and unexpected).
Now, you have a deathstar, a DK, a scary Librarian with Warp Rift, and a Stormraven in their lines. Instant backfield saturation.
It's got merit meaning that if you can get off a good multi-charge or so in the enemy backfield but don't really expect your SR to survive too well there after.
Basically it's going to be around a 400 point investment (possibly 600 with the DK) to effect this. There needs to have some crazy expensive stuff that you can wipe out (we're talking about taking out probably at least 3-5 units for this to be worth it and the enemy really needs to be somewhat clustered.) but it can work. Just need to make sure that you are being distracted by like 3-4 cheap transports like rhinos or this would be somewhat wasted.
I can see this being effective but need to have some sacrifices though can totally be upset if you enemy is playing a ton of wimpy guys. (Also, too many interceptors can make this kind of bad but it's not too often I get my SR blown up on the turn it enters (though you need to realistically survive a round of anti-air shooting to get into position)) I know I'm sounding kind of negative and it's probably because the last 3 games I tried any sort of GK assault build including my old DCA+crusader build got totally trounced by the New Tau/Eldar and it wasn't even remotely close.
One other problem I see with this trick is that it's a bit too complicated and thus more prone to problems.
The summoning can only be done on the librarian's beginning movement phase which means you get the SR, fly it in near where it needs to go on turn 2, drop off guys on turn 3, then turn 4 you can summon and the DK can assault on turn 5.
If you just jump out via shadow skies, you are facing a lot of potential dangerous terrain checks and things like DCA don't do that well with it. (lastly, and this part I don't know about, you can now use the teleport homer from the death from the skies addition but that thing requires the model with the beacon to already have been on the board for this to benefit your units). You also don't have permission to disembark in the shooting phase so your 36' move isn't always going to get you to where you might want to be especially if you are playing hammer and anvil deployment.
Well where to begin? it's about 11:38pm where I am but, I just watched the Falling Skys season premiere so I'm awake at the moment, I like it alot and am certainly looking to the new season. Back
on topic, I haven't played with my Grey Knights as much as I've wanted to.. but I've gotten an idea on how it is to play almost army but eldar and SoB "Poor SoB ", although I've seen how they
play.
I'm going to let my thoughts flow on this one and take my time on this.
Will I still play grey knights do the massive relapse we've just taken?
Yes, I love playing grey knights they are fun, I love their fluff, they fit my playstyle since I've began playing them, and I'm certainly not going to be putting them away.
Are they GT winning?
Uhhhh No. I'm not trying to be "the downer" here but truth be told, it's just not gonna happen Why? > There are many ways in which people come upon how they want to list build, personally I've
taken this approach
- Do I have Anti Horde?
-Do I have Anti-Flyer?
-Do I have Anti-Tank?
-Do I have AP?
- Do I have Anti-Death Star Capabilities?
-Do I have Psychic Protection?
-Do I have Anti MC weaponry or abilities?
-Do I have acess to Transportation/ Am I reasonably mobile?
- Can I deal with LR fire power?
These are the questions I ask myself in making any build, and are generally a great set of questions at which to build any army. Now however... some new categories have derived, which were always
categories which were not so much a problem.
How do I deal with units that are now impervious?
How do I deal with Massed AP2?
How do I deal with for no better way to say it, Tau Over watch and interceptor fire?
How do I deal with "peek a boo units"?
Truly these are the new questions that have derived from the many new codex realeases and to state it simply, you really can't. Unfortunately, it's going to be hard to be able to deal with any of
these because it's one thing to destroy a flyer it's another thing to stop an army loaded with nothing but Ap2 and 3 weaponry. There's not much you can do against an army that shoots at you and
then goes behind cover and negates your ability to fire back. You can't try and bother yourself with the flying Lord(s) of Tzeentch turning your amy into smoldering ash. Really what I'm trying to say is
there is just way to many categories to try and deal with to be Take All Comers.
Heldrakes are going to burn your strikes down to the ground. I kid you not 2 heldrakes took out 3/4 my army in a tournament over the weekend, the rest of his army did practically nothing.
Tau... LoLz.. LoLz. unless your have the greatest day of breaking the laws of averages rolling 2+ and 5++ invulnerable saves you are not going to beat a really well built and generaled Tau list.
They will kill you from long range, they will kill you before you get into assault, they will kill on deepstrike. enough said
You can't create an optimal list that can deal with everything and so now really it's a matter of if you were to have an allergy what would you want it to be and, that is what it is going to be for the
rest of this edition should you choose to play grey knights at least pure grey knights anyways.
I had a teir order a few months ago, I can't believe how much it would change in that short of time
but if one wanted to know My best and honest opinion as of this moment now.. would be
Necs/ Tau/ Nids/ Chaos/Daemons/Tau sit in the competitive tree of being GT winners.
SoB/ IG/ SW/ DA/ GK/ SM Orks + X like armies fill the rest of the tree
I can understand I've probably come out really negative of us and it's not to put us down/ rant or anything, I'm just stating the facts before we begin the clean slate to playing in 6e
First Things First It's time to break the feeling of being a strong teired army, because we aren't anymore we are lower middle teired. The matches are going to be tougher, it's going to take more
strategy than straight out point and fire. If anything it's going to take alot of dennying to win our games and it's going to take new playstyles other than pali star and purifier spam.
Now we can begin the open discussion of thoughts to competitiveness beginning with the core because games are won with scoring units. we have the choice between strikes and henchmen, terminators aren't going to be too good anymore as there is just too much AP2
3, or just too much shooting period and will just deal to many wounds and statistics will take hold.
Grey Knight Strike Squads- still a solid choice but don't expect them to be the gods of troops anymore xD as, the new thing is... they need rhinos now. Why? they just need protection. The ap2 fire,
the scare of heldrake flamers. They need something to be able to allow them a turn of free harrassment as opposed to losing a full squad per turn. They are going to want to be run in full 10 man
squads most of the time. 5 man gk strike squads are like 5 man units of kabalite warriors; caught in the open with their pants down they are just going to die and give quick kill points, make your
opponent have to work for those kill points/ give them less. the best setup on them is the same as it always has been with 2 psycannons and psybolts. But seriously you need a rhino or chimera
transport or else they'll be shot to ribbons. You'd be much happier losing a rhino a nd a grey knight which is the same in points as 3 grey knights as oppossed to 6 in one volley. Like I said before
make your opponent work to have to kill your guys off.
Henchmen- Run them in chimeras however the loadouts as to the squads, there are so many really it comes down to personal preference but, just note that when their ride pops they are probably
going to die afterwards as their armor sucks and it is for that reason I'd somewhat advise not taking them because it's not like rhinos and chimeras are durable units.
Next up
The HQ
Coteaz- is probably going to still be the bestfriend of this edition he's just such a great character not going to go into depth on why everyone knows why he is a great character
Grand Master- I expect to see much less of him. Grand Strategy really isn't going to be of great use anymore and this is this reason why. Paladins while still somewhat a solid choice aren't going to win
tournaments and they are going to be eaten up by AP2 weaponry and massed shooting.
Librarian- this is who I expect to be seeing alot of this edition. LV 3 with a wardstave all kitted out trying to get re-rollable 2+ saves. simply put he's going to offer alot of survivability to our units at
least from all the small arms not AP2 fire. He gives out alot of buffs and can single handedly take on the anti- death star role by himself short of taking on a unit of ap2 powerfisting terminators.
Inquisitor- deffinitely still a good and popular choice I will expect to see him or coteaz most probalby if an inquisitor is taken.
Crowe- just leave him at home xD
Brotherhood Champion- still not probably worth taking as he only has one wound and now that everyone has deny the witch his special attack can be negated making him less pleasant to play
Inquisitor Kamarazov- iI have a feeling we will actually be seeing this guy now. The simple fact that their are so many gunlines now I can't imagine not seeing him in unison with a calidus assassin free
barrage on a gunline/ or justicar Thawn/ Dreadknight> in fact im very much considering taking him myself. nothing like 3 str 6 ap 4 templates on a Tau gunline template on target or 3 pie plates
Next uP Elites
Purifiers- oh how far you've fallen =(. They need to be run in squads of ten now and as a dedicated deathstar like unit because running them in razorbacks just really isn't going to get the job done
anymore; they are such a threat factor they will most certainly be singled out and shot up and with all the ap2 and massed shooting these guys aren't going to last long enough a libby attached would
be the best option in making them survivable as a small deathstar but other than that they are probably not gonna be showing up as much as they used to.
Paladins- with all the shooting and AP2 and unkillable monstrous creatures now/ they are still a solid choice but certainly nowhere amazing. They can easily be held up simply by a lord of change
challenging them in an assault phase and there is 700+ points tied up for the rest of the match. so I don't expect them to be to popular in Grand tournaments as its way to likely they will be shot up
by ap2 weaponry or held up by a lord of tzeentch with grimoire /2++ re rollable.
techmarine- I wouldn't be suprised to see this guy more actually as repairing rhinos is going to be a key measure in survivability plus their conversion banner isn't all that bad so jea.
Callidus Assassin - desperate times call for desperate measure, and I'm sure were going to see him in unison with kamarazovs orbital bombardment ability this edition.
Vindicare Assassin- deffinitely going to be seeing him as there are so many characters that need their invuls stripped such as the lord of tzeentch. Finally blowing up landraiders and killing warlocks and
such never hurt.
Fast Attack
Interceptors- Probably one of the only units not really hurt except by that of the increase in ap2. They are going to be vital to winning games and I wont be suprised to be seeing grey knights run
with 2 or more so of these squads as the primary which would mean a GM will probably be present.
SR- still overpriced for what it brings in my opinion and really they need to be run in doubles.
Heavy Support
DreadKnought- is going to be a seriously strong unit coming up now with all the damn psychic powers that are so powerful and that aegis protection for everyone is really going to help with psychic
protection probably going to be seeing at least on of these in every list
Dread Knight- Still strong but his survivability went down due to all the ap2 and massed shooting.
Allies
here's thing about allies/ for tournament play I think most gk players are probably going to go this route and try and ally with SW/ TAU/ or Eldar now that bringing a farseer won't f your army.
Rune Preist offer very good psychic protection and really do a number on MC with Jaws of the World. so deffinitely going to be a popular ally. Tau are Tau, your'e deffinitely going to see some kind of
allies with them for strength in interceptor shooting so as to be able to combat fliers as well as their strength in removing cover/ AP2 shooting. Eldar, you are deffinitely going to see them as allies
for their ap2 shooting as well as their crazy quick units now.
All in All I was talking with a group of guys at the tournament and we were all agreeing the game is deffinetly going that of the way of being an allied army game and I can't help but agree with them
as simply put to be competitive we are going to have to take something from someonelses codex to be able to deal with the new changes brought on by the rules of the new codexes.
If I were to sum it up and what will probably be scene for the rest of 6e
If you have any thoughts or disagreeances on anything feel free to post about it
***** Been thinking about list building and I believe that 30 models of grey knights are the max number you should have at the 1500 point level. In addition to that as strikes and terminators aren't viable troop choices as they are too slow and wont reach combat and wont put out enough shooting henchmen are most probably the best choice. As for the Grey knights I believe 10man Interceptor squad is must take as they are the single unit that wasn't totally screwed over after that either another interceptor squad or a squad of purifiers in a rhino or LR will probably be the best choice however if you take the purifiers and LR you won't be able to take a 3rd grey knight squad.
Coteaz with Henchmen/ servitors with heavy bolters or multi meltas in Chimeras or razorbacks are starting to sound good for the best viable troop choice options they give twin-linked 36" range shooting which means they have anti-flyer capabilities plus it gives the henchmen something to hide out in until it's time to go out and cap objectives plus they can stay back and make up their points with their shooting. A full squad of servitors with heavy bolters in a chimera gives 12 str 5 and 3 str 6 shots for 85 points very cheap simple and affective.
Funny thing is that I agree with you on the overall GK heading. I'm still not sold on Inquisitor K + the callidus but it's a minor difference. I've been doing all sorts of allies with my GK often brining things other armies lack like Necrons and needing deep strike protection for example and want to use warp quake (or Tau I suppose and just interceptor everything to death) or coteaz's I've been expecting you as well as steal initiative reroll.
Having a DK can still be handy as the allied choice, I'd almost always take him since I won't have any if many strike squads at all.
SR - -- I'm leaning more towards the regular SM version more and more lately since our missles are not nearly as effective since not every list has psykers but almost everything has something worth shooting an anti-tank missle at.
So far my allies build has almost always had coteaz and one squad of very shooty henchmen (like 2 PC servitors + 2 monkies and 3 bolter guys to suck wounds or a crusader) usually camped somewhere firing off the aegis guns/interceptor las cannon
Maybe one small strike squad for warp quake, or if I don't need it, take a counter assault option with crusaders and DCA with power axe+sword
one DK to be a big pain/distraction/flamer (for Eldar troops other than jetbikes and mostly for pathfinders/marker drones)
And possibly interceptor squad to accomplish the same thing as the DK or a strom raven as anti-air if what I'm allying with has almost none or very little.
It's been my most successful so far at taking just about the best things out of our codex that isn't completely screwed over by all the new things like you mentioned (how to deal with pop up units) I'll leave the really heavy lifting up to the necron destroyer lord + wraiths and nightscythes to handle. Or guard the riptide's back from getting shot.
Incidentially, paladins are not characters anymore. You can't hold all of them up with a challenge as no one can accept anymore.
Sad to say it but GK just aren't competitive even with psycannons and I have a feeling that's why most of the hard core generals have moved away from them. I hardly see anyone play them anymore. ( though mine are quite pretty and I still love the things I hardly ever get to play the shiny in competitive lists and it's been mostly up to my henchmen to pick up the slack.
Heck I even use draigo/paladins totally different now. I don't expect them to live past turn 3 most times (and use them as a titantic bullet catcher) and I generally hope that my opponent was bad and don't go after my scoring units (solo'dins or henchmen) that I'm attempting to win the game with as well as the game needs to end turn 5 lololol.
In many ways, it almost feels like back in 4th edition or early 5th before the new codex. The main strats to play GK are back to the days of hiding in a castle corner or suicidal terminators and just focus down a bit of your enemy at a time and hope you have enough LOS to hide under lol.
*Flash back to really old strat video I saw like 3 yrs ago - here's a flash from the past to Fritz 40k commenting on the 4th edition GK terminators* - amazingly enough, this is sound strat for the current state of GK, we're back to 4th =)
Red Comet
What do you guys think of Grey Knights with Tau Allies? I've been considering this for a while, but I don't know if its even worth giving it a shot.
Well here's the thing you can really only run your core one of 2 ways.. 5 man terminators with a psycannon and a mix of weapons or 10 grey knights in squads of 10 with psycannons and psybolts
if you take terminators you dont really need tau because the main reason for taking tau would be to deal with flyers as they are the best interceptor army in the game right now at deal with units coming from reserves- and heldrakes murder us. If you want to go the route of still taking strike squads their is really no other alternative but to take tau and what you would take almost certainly with pretty much no exceptions would be
Allied Contingent
469pts.
Commander 171
2 Missile Pods
Velocity Tracker
Early warning
1 marker drone
1 shield drone
Vector Retro Jets
neuroweb
puretide engram chip
The Hq squad will undoubtedly take care of heldrakes coming in on the first turn or at least screw them over so much as to the point they probably won't be able to use their flamers on the turn they come in. However as you can easily see its a pretty nifty price but if your ok with that you should be pretty much sound. you do get the cheap fire warrior squad for camping on your back objective which is good and the crisis squad will still put out some hurting with their shooting and become your primary tank hunter unit as they can shoot at whatever they want and probably take it out via tank hunter ability from the puretide chip
The other option is to go 2 5 man terminator squads and drop them late game on objectives(make sure to place all your objectives behind terrain and out of line of sight to keep as much stuff from shooting you as possible) this way is much cheaper as you don't have to spend 500 points on taking Tau for a strong anti-air base.
If you do take terminators though it will allow you access to interceptors however which are going to be the major unit for grey knights in 6e. they are our fastest unit and cover the field quickly. They will die every game but the purpose of them will be to flank opponents sides and take on half your opponents by getting into Assault ASAP. Simply put our guys just can't take the shooting anymore and locking in combat and sweeping our opponents on their turn will be the only way in which we will be able to survive the massed shooting our opponents are able to bring out however, the hope is by the end you can seriously cripple your opponents that when you objective campers come towards end game they will be largely uharrassed by all your opponents shooting.
your going to want to run
as to be able to make the best use of them. You want to switch out a psycannon now because you really want to be in your opponents face/ in assault now so the one psycannon is there so as to be able to have something at which to be able to deal with tanks but primarily your focus will be in assault while the flamers deal with all the infantry behind aegis defense lines so as to be able to cause more casualties and make your opponent have to take more moral checks.
I'd imagine that 2x NDK with HI will be popular as well either route SS or terminators, as they are still a very strong unit and can really back up both affectively
in the SS list with Tau they will provide a strong fire magnet and offensive force to holding your opponents in combat denying them the ability to claim objectives while in the terminator list
they will be able to join in the jump jump jump unit playstyle you will have to play in getting in close combat and bashing in your opponents/ Flaming tons of non MEQ as there probably will be alot this edition is how these bad boys are going to be how these boyz are going to make their points back and I'd imagine that they will probably do so with flying colors.
Finally SW drop pod allies with RP or eldar with jetbikes to make last minute dashes for objectives towards the end game will also be popular
I like the upcoming challenge but more than anything picking your fights/ striking flanks/ hiding/ and last turn dashes towards objectives for denial and captures will be how win in 6e now
Hope you could take something from this =)
****Was pondering 5 terminators and then I forgot that they can still be vector striked to death by heldrakes so they are going to need a chimera
2x Land Raider as much a I hate to state it with 10 man strike squads or 5 man terminator squads are looking more and more real probable to play as well.
2x Storm Raven as well is probably going to be of serious probability as well
Chimeras and Rhinos are only going to save you one turn at least with a Landraider or Storm Raven you'll have a somewhat resilient unit/ at least more resilient than any other alternative I can think of at the moment
Another thing to note it is truly mandatory to bring a quad gun and aegis defense line unless you want to submit yourself to an autoloss to a heldrake list
Red Comet
What do you guys think of Grey Knights with Tau Allies? I've been considering this for a while, but I don't know if its even worth giving it a shot.
Well here's the thing you can really only run your core one of 2 ways.. 5 man terminators with a psycannon and a mix of weapons or 10 grey knights in squads of 10 with psycannons and psybolts
if you take terminators you dont really need tau because the main reason for taking tau would be to deal with flyers as they are the best interceptor army in the game right now at deal with units coming from reserves- and heldrakes murder us. If you want to go the route of still taking strike squads their is really no other alternative but to take tau and what you would take almost certainly with pretty much no exceptions would be
Allied Contingent
469pts.
Commander 171
2 Missile Pods
Velocity Tracker
Early warning
1 marker drone
1 shield drone
Vector Retro Jets
neuroweb
puretide engram chip
The Hq squad will undoubtedly take care of heldrakes coming in on the first turn or at least screw them over so much as to the point they probably won't be able to use their flamers on the turn they come in. However as you can easily see its a pretty nifty price but if your ok with that you should be pretty much sound. you do get the cheap fire warrior squad for camping on your back objective which is good and the crisis squad will still put out some hurting with their shooting and become your primary tank hunter unit as they can shoot at whatever they want and probably take it out via tank hunter ability from the puretide chip
The other option is to go 2 5 man terminator squads and drop them late game on objectives(make sure to place all your objectives behind terrain and out of line of sight to keep as much stuff from shooting you as possible) this way is much cheaper as you don't have to spend 500 points on taking Tau for a strong anti-air base.
If you do take terminators though it will allow you access to interceptors however which are going to be the major unit for grey knights in 6e. they are our fastest unit and cover the field quickly. They will die every game but the purpose of them will be to flank opponents sides and take on half your opponents by getting into Assault ASAP. Simply put our guys just can't take the shooting anymore and locking in combat and sweeping our opponents on their turn will be the only way in which we will be able to survive the massed shooting our opponents are able to bring out however, the hope is by the end you can seriously cripple your opponents that when you objective campers come towards end game they will be largely uharrassed by all your opponents shooting.
your going to want to run
as to be able to make the best use of them. You want to switch out a psycannon now because you really want to be in your opponents face/ in assault now so the one psycannon is there so as to be able to have something at which to be able to deal with tanks but primarily your focus will be in assault while the flamers deal with all the infantry behind aegis defense lines so as to be able to cause more casualties and make your opponent have to take more moral checks.
I'd imagine that 2x NDK with HI will be popular as well either route SS or terminators, as they are still a very strong unit and can really back up both affectively
in the SS list with Tau they will provide a strong fire magnet and offensive force to holding your opponents in combat denying them the ability to claim objectives while in the terminator list
they will be able to join in the jump jump jump unit playstyle you will have to play in getting in close combat and bashing in your opponents/ Flaming tons of non MEQ as there probably will be alot this edition is how these bad boys are going to be how these boyz are going to make their points back and I'd imagine that they will probably do so with flying colors.
Finally SW drop pod allies with RP or eldar with jetbikes to make last minute dashes for objectives towards the end game will also be popular
I like the upcoming challenge but more than anything picking your fights/ striking flanks/ hiding/ and last turn dashes towards objectives for denial and captures will be how win in 6e now
Hope you could take something from this =)
****Was pondering 5 terminators and then I forgot that they can still be vector striked to death by heldrakes so they are going to need a chimera
2x Land Raider as much a I hate to state it with 10 man strike squads or 5 man terminator squads are looking more and more real probable to play as well.
2x Storm Raven as well is probably going to be of serious probability as well
Chimeras and Rhinos are only going to save you one turn at least with a Landraider or Storm Raven you'll have a somewhat resilient unit/ at least more resilient than any other alternative I can think of at the moment
Another thing to note it is truly mandatory to bring a quad gun and aegis defense line unless you want to submit yourself to an autoloss to a heldrake list
The allied list is actually illegal and they don't do much since they have no weapons.
I was actually thinking of something along this line for my allied Tau.
HQ:
Commander with Iridium Armor, Multi Spectrum Sensor Suite
Elites:
Riptide with Early Warning Override, 2 Shield Drones, Ion upgrade, and the plasma gun
Troops:
6 Fire Warriors
Heavy Support:
3 Broadsides with Heavy Rail Rifle and Velocity Tracker
Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun
The rest of the GK part is Strike Squads in Rhinos since Strike Squads are actually pretty mobile and deadly in a Rhino. The Rhinos also help stop Heldrakes destroying a whole squad in one turn. I only took 6 Fire Warriors because Fire Warriors are awful and I'll keep them in reserve to backfield score. The Commander has no guns and gives Ignores Cover to the Broadsides and the Commander also fires the Quad Gun on the defense line. Riptide is there to make drop podding armies cry as well as anything that deep strikes near me.
I feel like this list shores up the problem of skyfire for GK as well as giving us long range fire power which GK sorely lack.
The prior list was only illegal just becaues of the Puretide Engram. I still suggest taking a Coteaz for that list and sticking him on the Quad Gun instead. At least that way you can shoot at everything coming in, rather than just one. Your Riptide can only Intercept once, so a massed droppod army would still be pretty scary.
Rail sides are also no longer that good for anti-air. You're effectively spending an excessive amount of points for what amounts to 3 twinlinked Str 8 shots (albeit with Skyfire) compared to the 4 on a Psyfleman, I'd rather take missilesides to be honest.
My personal Tau attachment has been something to the effect of:
Commander + 2 marker drones with a squad of marker drones (6 drones total usually)
2 weapons on the commander (usually missles to stay at range)+ iridium (to tank heldrake)+ target lock + drone controller (maybe the puretide engram)
Riptide with ion cannon, skyfire and interceptor
Broadsides with high yield missle pods and interceptor.
Kroot squad (almost 100% of the time outflanking to go after a cleverly placed objective somewhere - more often than not I find the 10 points somewhere to give them snipers as my lists tend to lack sniper or poisoned weapons)
Totals 713 without the puretide . If I have extra points I take a crisis bodyguard team with interceptor and missles or plasma based on what I'm short on (usually plasma or missles if I'm more expecting interceptor)
Really haven't taken the bodyguard team too often though I keep wanting to. Most often if I have points left over, I'll get a mix of more marker drones or missle drones for the broadsides as this is a pretty hefty detatchment already. Most people would have pushed for 200 points cheaper overall build.
This is my most basic Tau attachment that I've had the most success with all comers and I just toss it into just about anything.
In fact in my full Tau list, I basically just duplicate all of the above and throw in some elder for psychic buffs and a squad of jetbikes to score with fire prism now cept I generally have the crisis suits instead of bodyguards with an extra elites slot and start replacing kroot with fire warriors.
Enigwolf wrote: The prior list was only illegal just becaues of the Puretide Engram. I still suggest taking a Coteaz for that list and sticking him on the Quad Gun instead. At least that way you can shoot at everything coming in, rather than just one. Your Riptide can only Intercept once, so a massed droppod army would still be pretty scary.
Rail sides are also no longer that good for anti-air. You're effectively spending an excessive amount of points for what amounts to 3 twinlinked Str 8 shots (albeit with Skyfire) compared to the 4 on a Psyfleman, I'd rather take missilesides to be honest.
His Tau commander also took too many items. 2x mpods, ewo, velocity tracker and vectored thurster are all from the standard wargear section. He is only allowed 4, not 5.
I was pretty wasted after work today and decided to mess around with a truly silly list just out of total boredom. Short version - didn't work but was very fun!
1500 list
Draigo (hey why not, I was inspired by that youtube video)
An inquisitor with no upgrades (also from that video lol) With one servo skull (who happens also be the warlord hiding in the storm raven (also inspired by the video...)
4 solo paladins (all with hammers) just because...
2 DK's with incinerators and teleports (cause I couldn't fit on psycannons too)
10 interceptors with hammer + psycannon and incinerator (wanted to try stuff mentioned earlier in the thread)
storm raven with las cannon + multi-melta (mostly cause I didn't want to have zero skyfire)
I randomly rolled against an opposing list of prebuilt 1500 lists against myself... and I got my wraith/airforce crons >.<
Suffice it to say I didn't do very well but I had a blast doing basically nothing till turn 3 after all my solo-dins dropped close to objectives (scouring). Whole game probably took like 45 minutes. Basically nothing really for the wraiths to assault cause the only things deployed were fast jump/shunt troops and one solodin running around hiding behind a wall and the rest were running around dodging things. The necrons flew around with night scythes but I made a lot of 2+ saves and 3+ on the interceptors.
Basically by turn 4, the necrons beams down next to objectives as well and the wraithlord finally gets to the far corner to kill one paladin. The storm raven got shot down by turn 5 but the inquisitor and draigo attached to eachother dropped out near a servo skull close to an objective.
If the game ended by turn 5, Gk would have had 1 objective and linebreaker and first blood for the SR shot down one night scythe before dying and necrons also 1 objective and linebreaker and the storm raven kill. Almost everything was contested and both sides had a 2 point uncontested objective. (Would have tied)
Too bad the game went on to turn 7 actually and I finally failed enough saves for 2 of the solodins to die (and 2 were eaten by the wraithstar). The DK's killed off annhiliation barges but didn't want to mess with D.lord MSS. Also flamed off 2 warrior squads. I didn't combat squad the interceptors so GK only had a 3 point objective at the end and the necrons had a 3 and a 1. Draigo and inquisitor was contesting the 4 point objective but couldn't cap it. (and no necrons were there anyway)
Really silly game but was very refreshing to play a super fast GK build. I might have to experiment more with this thing.
So are there any all gk builds left? i can't see even a new codex update we get a points decrease... The Heavy slots seem to be one baby carrier and two psydreads which is around 500+ pts right there and doesn't seem to be something we can be without.
Coteaz and his henchman are what i consider ridiculously cheap and I do subscribe to the SS/Axe Crusader and PC servitor. But the troops section is just killing me. 2 full PAGK squads puts you at 500+ and if you run transports (basically to provide cover and if not destroyed help get to an objective) that's 600+. So, not playing 2k pt double FC (which wouldn't help anyway) we play the 1500 - 1850 pt range.
With what I described thus far, that puts it at around 1350pts or so. I've debated the double Paladin to contest obj but they aren't going to last long without support. Bare bones, that's about 110pts and a decent addition if you can get cover.
And if we need an emplacement, the Aegis with Quad Gun would round this out. The only other thing I could think of is a toss up of single assassin, but that competes for the Elite slots as well........
Just not a lot of models out there compared to what I can create for the same points cost of my Eldar.
basically GK is falling back down into the fluff department. You just can't beat the numbers of units/shots coming in (mind you it's almost all quality + quantity of fire we're seeing so far from Tau/Eldar/even chaos daemons)
Almost all of the newest codex releases have been big beat sticks against elite armies (so much AP1-2 and AP3 flamers and now eldar even has alot of AP2 flamers from troop slots lol) which has seen basically GK drop off in my area down to just like 1-2 people. I kind of saw this coming a while back and predicted to us at mid tier but I'm revising us down a peg. We're a smidge potentially better than regular SM and better than BA/BT and sisters. Probably tied about with good DA builds. SM is going to be updated soon so with the way things are going, we'll be kind of back to where we were in 4th edition or beginning of 5th before the "new" codex. (i.e. more fluff and awesome looking models) and much more likely as allies for warpquake, coteaz to steal the initiative/deny a corner, and a DK to force punch big scary things like WK's and riptides and of course to flame things. Gk's lack a proper air defense and has way too few bodies for the new meta we're seeing on the net. Unless you go interceptors or teleport DK's, our foot troops are in general too slow to get into assault properly.
Pure GK isn't really strong anymore in the new meta (we got like 3 people that just started Eldar for example and about 6 riptides have popped up and heck, all the good battle reports about the revamped nids have someone starting those too. about 3 new CSM players as well as 2 daemon players not to mention the 5 necron players that never stopped lol)
Use GK as allies (kind of like what we were back in 4th) and you'll be much more satisfied with the results (also fits fluff believe it or not most times)
Mind you this is basically talking about pure gk build not counting henchmen which actually are still pretty decent though the mech wall isn't quite what it used to be. I'm quite interested in seeming if someone can do well with say a purifier build vs things like eldar and or vs tau. I'be beaten myself a lot outside of crazy dice where I miss with metric ton of bs5 marker lights or I keep perils when as the new eldar. Of course it maybe also that I play way too much gk and know all of my own tricks lol.
Can you combat squad and then chose to DS the 2nd part of the squad? I keep trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip probably, but looking at taking 10 member Strike Squad to get the 2 Psycannons. Buy a rhino. Combat Squad the 2 PsyC into the rhinos for Fire Point use and protection (for what it's worth) and then deepstrike the other 5 with the Justicar onto the board?
At 1850, I can fit at least 4 possible 5 units this way if I forgo some other items...
Enigwolf wrote: The prior list was only illegal just becaues of the Puretide Engram. I still suggest taking a Coteaz for that list and sticking him on the Quad Gun instead. At least that way you can shoot at everything coming in, rather than just one. Your Riptide can only Intercept once, so a massed droppod army would still be pretty scary.
Rail sides are also no longer that good for anti-air. You're effectively spending an excessive amount of points for what amounts to 3 twinlinked Str 8 shots (albeit with Skyfire) compared to the 4 on a Psyfleman, I'd rather take missilesides to be honest.
They'll be trying their hardest to keep away from the Riptide because they won't be wanting to lose anyone. Also they'll be keeping away from Coteaz this means I can still force them into positions where I want to them to land. Its not about being able to intercept once. Its about affecting their decisions so they play into my hands.
Psyfleman is ok. Broadsides are still cheaper and yeah the Missile sides are pretty awesome. I prefer the Rail Rifle though because its Ap2. It's better against a wide variety of targets.
Sorry Comet didn't realize I went a little happy with the upgrades I was trying to come up with something have the most interceptor fire and not taking up half ur points.
I'm gonna try one more list and see how I do before just playing my gk because I enjoy them rather than being competitive
HQ Inquisitor 66
psycher
servo skull
power armor
Uriels_Flame wrote: Can you combat squad and then chose to DS the 2nd part of the squad? I keep trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip probably, but looking at taking 10 member Strike Squad to get the 2 Psycannons. Buy a rhino. Combat Squad the 2 PsyC into the rhinos for Fire Point use and protection (for what it's worth) and then deepstrike the other 5 with the Justicar onto the board?
At 1850, I can fit at least 4 possible 5 units this way if I forgo some other items...
yes, this is allowed as you chose to combat squad before deployment.
Heck, you can even have them in the same rhino if you want. The combat squad just has to disembark separately and can't get back on the same rhino at the same time as the other half of the squad but you can divvy them up with whichever loadout you want (2 psycannons in one group and none in the other or what have you) and you can still chose to deep strike the half if you'd like.
It's one way to have more squads and buying psybolt for everyone cheaper. (though you won't have as many hammer justicars with the combat squad set up)
Enigwolf wrote: Didn't they FAQ Combat Squads and Transports to always be able to share the same transport as their other squad? Or am I imagining this?
woopsy, you are right. it says they can share apparently though I've yet to have this occur come up but you are right. That is possible.
I've almost always driven away so it's never actually come up that they try to get back into the same vehicle.
Does the psybolt ammunition run throughout a defense line bolt action gun? So if I throw my Brother Capt into a Bastion, does that give all the HB psybolt ammo as well?
And with the Death from the Skies suppliment, can GK take Stormtalons?
Ok, so after some thought and reading the first 15 pages of this thread and the last 2 pages (sorry if I missed A LOT in between) here is what I'm looking at: Lots of MSU and Crowe (because you know why)...
HQ - Crow manning the Quad Gun of the Aegis Defense line - 250 pts
Troops - Purifier Squad x4 - 5 guys, 2 Psycannons - 640 pts
One on each side of the line, and 2 for better shots/placement as determined by the scenario.
Elites - Trialadins x2 - 3 Paladins - 330 pts
Could go dual x3, but I wanted them for counter attack for the interceptors. I'm a symmetry kind of guy.
I'm still running an all TDA Ghostwing, centered on Mordrak, Ghosts, Librarian, and two 10man squads of GKT. Does ok in the current meta, not stellar. Not a WAAC army by any means! But I've been able the drop next to a Riptide and Warp Rifted it off the table enough times that my local opponents hide it now, defeating the whole purpose of taking it. Haven't played against the new Eldar yet, but I did buy the codex to plan on how I'll be dealing with them in future games.
I'm moving more and more into shunting capable units. Combined with some allied drop pods for some crazy fun.
It's just so hard to find points for something like 3x dk's. 2x DK's do ok though =) I still struggle to find points for swords when cramming in interceptors. Usually this approach also leaves me fairly defenseless vs fliers swarms but I do have quite a bit of an alpha strike. Also struggles with heldrakes and big tarpits lol
sudojoe wrote: I'm moving more and more into shunting capable units. Combined with some allied drop pods for some crazy fun.
It's just so hard to find points for something like 3x dk's. 2x DK's do ok though =) I still struggle to find points for swords when cramming in interceptors. Usually this approach also leaves me fairly defenseless vs fliers swarms but I do have quite a bit of an alpha strike. Also struggles with heldrakes and big tarpits lol
I'm right with you here, joe. I really wish the dex had an HQ option to make interceptors troops! haha I usually Run a base GM, 2 interceptor squads and 2 DKs as a starting point. Than depending on the points I'll either go Coteaz and MSU henchmen or strike squads. The shunting is amazing. With interceptors I usually just jump to about 20" away from my intended target. Getting maximum firepower with minimum return fire or counter assault.
Ok, thinking about running my GK's again.....in a tournament.
Actually, it's going to be GK+necrons, with necrons being the Primary. It's a similar list to the one yermom ran at Adepticon and it's got potential to really kick teeth if you know what you're doing.
2K Necrons + Draigowing
Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS Draigo
10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, Apothecary, Banner, Stave
1x Soladin - Hammer
5x Necrons - Night Scythe
5x Necrons - Night Scythe
Coyote81 wrote: Technically yes. Since the special upgrade is for him and not just his stormbolter. Fyi, you get 4 heavy bolters on a fortress of redemption.
You have to buy those HBs. It doesn't come with any.
But yes, psybolt ammo will transfer to the HBs if a model/unit with the upgrade fires them.
Enigwolf wrote: Didn't they FAQ Combat Squads and Transports to always be able to share the same transport as their other squad? Or am I imagining this?
No this is true. I don't think they did away with it.
So I've been finding every single stand-alone GK build to be pretty crap in this edition. Some success with Tau allies, but I don't use them for AA (since I have my Psyflemen, Aegis, and Stormraven for that. Instead, I walk them up the board while I have infantry shunting, deepstriking, or deploying via transport into their backfield. Seems to work decently well for now.
Enigwolf wrote: So I've been finding every single stand-alone GK build to be pretty crap in this edition. Some success with Tau allies, but I don't use them for AA (since I have my Psyflemen, Aegis, and Stormraven for that. Instead, I walk them up the board while I have infantry shunting, deepstriking, or deploying via transport into their backfield. Seems to work decently well for now.
They also work well with necrons and IG.
Grey Templar wrote: Oddly enough I have the opposite experience. I can't find a single Ally combo that's worth the points.
jy2 wrote: Ok, thinking about running my GK's again.....in a tournament.
Actually, it's going to be GK+necrons, with necrons being the Primary. It's a similar list to the one yermom ran at Adepticon and it's got potential to really kick teeth if you know what you're doing.
2K Necrons + Draigowing
Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS Draigo
10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, Apothecary, Banner, Stave
1x Soladin - Hammer
5x Necrons - Night Scythe
5x Necrons - Night Scythe
My goal is a modest one....to kick ass, take names and win all 6 games! BTW, will probably get in a practice game this weekend.
I'm pretty familiar with the necron + GK combo but this one seems a tad strange given the mobility of other armies now. The wraithstar can do similarly and threaten things pretty well from turn 2 on. The palistar is more resilent vs small arms fire (cept vs Eldar) and can't stand up to AP2 templates as nearly as well (Tau) and I expect both of those things to be plugging away at any death star since your scoring troops are going to be mostly off the table with (I suspect deep striking terminator and warriors in scythes). With no escort, the D.lord will be hiding I'm guessing (to preserve the warlord slaying).
Annihilation barges are good I'd admit but It'd be still pretty tough to out shoot the enemy since there's a lot of 2+ cover /armor toting things now a days. The psyfleman can help buff the paladins against psychic madness and I'm generally assuming that you will be shoving the expendable (since not warlord) draigo + pali squad + dread for support into the teeth of the enemy?
I guess my biggest issue that while you got decent range with 24' psycannon spam and tanky draigo, I just fear what a properly played riptide + marker team list would do against this thing. The barges would be too slow and out ranged and against the new eldar, there'd be some problems forcing an engagement with their speed, lack of ignore cover, and the sheer volume of the return fire (a lot of it AP2 or 1 and a lot of it could be str 8+ in both.)
(we have had several long term Eldar players that's been jumping for joy since the new dex dropped and some of their firepower has been amazing. I've lost the draigostar by turn 3 before trying to foot slog it to them. (even with scout move)
What this kind of list is great against though is that it's gonna be good vs a lot of FMC's, or daemon shooting but can be tarpitted quite a bit by fearless blobs. It'll be resilent to noise marines and heldrakes which is a big plus going for it. It'll be fair enough vs some gunlines though I'm not sure what answer it can give to drop pod armies that go after barges and just go for objectives. Not enough MSU in here to engage multiple targets.
What's your overall strat with this thing jy2? (also, no warscythe for the D.lord?)
I would like to see what this kind of list can do vs the new mechdar. 5 point lances are so cheap and such a hard counter on vehicles that need 22 str 7 shots to potentially wreck (50.89% give or take with the serpent shield and 4+ cover saves) With Annhiliation barges - it'd be more like 17 twin linked shots to get 53% wreck) - varience a lot with how much 6's you get with tesla could be as few as 12 but on average it'll still take about 3 annhiliation barges to wreck one vehicle a turn or possibly 2 turns or more if you can catch it since it does out range the barges too.
I'm pretty familiar with the necron + GK combo but this one seems a tad strange given the mobility of other armies now. The wraithstar can do similarly and threaten things pretty well from turn 2 on. The palistar is more resilent vs small arms fire (cept vs Eldar) and can't stand up to AP2 templates as nearly as well (Tau) and I expect both of those things to be plugging away at any death star since your scoring troops are going to be mostly off the table with (I suspect deep striking terminator and warriors in scythes). With no escort, the D.lord will be hiding I'm guessing (to preserve the warlord slaying).
Annihilation barges are good I'd admit but It'd be still pretty tough to out shoot the enemy since there's a lot of 2+ cover /armor toting things now a days. The psyfleman can help buff the paladins against psychic madness and I'm generally assuming that you will be shoving the expendable (since not warlord) draigo + pali squad + dread for support into the teeth of the enemy?
I guess my biggest issue that while you got decent range with 24' psycannon spam and tanky draigo, I just fear what a properly played riptide + marker team list would do against this thing. The barges would be too slow and out ranged and against the new eldar, there'd be some problems forcing an engagement with their speed, lack of ignore cover, and the sheer volume of the return fire (a lot of it AP2 or 1 and a lot of it could be str 8+ in both.)
(we have had several long term Eldar players that's been jumping for joy since the new dex dropped and some of their firepower has been amazing. I've lost the draigostar by turn 3 before trying to foot slog it to them. (even with scout move)
What this kind of list is great against though is that it's gonna be good vs a lot of FMC's, or daemon shooting but can be tarpitted quite a bit by fearless blobs. It'll be resilent to noise marines and heldrakes which is a big plus going for it. It'll be fair enough vs some gunlines though I'm not sure what answer it can give to drop pod armies that go after barges and just go for objectives. Not enough MSU in here to engage multiple targets.
What's your overall strat with this thing jy2? (also, no warscythe for the D.lord?)
Ah....some very astute observations, young grasshopper. Let me try my best to assuage your concerns.
1. First off, the D-lord comes with Warscythe included.
2. What are the real strengths of Tau and Eldar offense? It's volume-of-fire. Yes, they can put up shots like nobody's business. It is precisely because of this why I prefer to run paladins. If you're concerned about paladins dying to them, then normal strikers/MEQ's haven't got a prayer in the world. Let me tell you, against small-arms fire, the 11-man Draigostar unit will outlast 40+ strikers/MEQ's and then some! There are just too many things that will kill MEQ's nowadays. If you want to be able to compete, you need to run ultra-tough units like terminators or lots and lots of bodies like a blob squad (or zombies) or have troops protected in flying transports (i.e. necron warriors). Normal MEQ's on foot or even in rhinos just cannot compete against the upper-tier tournament armies.
3. Lack of mobility, which is an exploitable weakness of Draigowing, is addressed to a degree with troops in flying transports. And necrons are masters at this, which is one of the reasons why they complement Draigowing so well.
4. Apothecary. Normally, I am against running an Apoc in a Draigowing build, but with Tau, the new Eldar and even daemons (Tzeentch shooting), I'm beginning to warm up to the Apothecary. The Apoc makes a tough unit even tougher, especially against small-arms fire. It also gives some protection to S7-spam and in particular, plasmas. Now paladins will be twice as likely to survive plasmas thanks to 5++ and then 5+ FNP. Draigo himself becomes a slightly better tanker with 3++ and then 5+ FNP against AP 1/2 guns.
5. The D-lord will be in the Night Scythe with the troops. When he comes in, I can drop him off in the enemy backcourt as a disruption unit. Now they need to split their resources to deal with a jump infantry T6 monstrosity as well as the other threats in my army. Just try to drop him off behind LOS-blocking terrain if possible. He then has the speed to immediately threaten many units the next turn.
Of course if I want to DS the paladins, I can always start my D-lord off on the board hiding, but usually that is not a good idea (to DS the paladinstar, that is).
6. Annihilation barges and psyfleman give me a lot of accurate high-strength shots. Focus-fire from them can even soften up tough foes behind cover. I'm not too concerned about 2+ saves as my paladins will eventually mow through those units. The vehicles will strategically pick off other, easier to kill units. Plus, they are resilient and can soak up some damage. The dread can also be a scoring unit if necessary.
7. Against Tau, all you need to know is that their sweet spot is only 15". Inside of 15", they are particularly deadly with triple shots. Outside of 15", not so. I can take advantage of that because all my guns are full strength at 24".
8. You don't necessarily have to "shove" your paladins "into the teeth of the enemy"? Although against many opponents, you would want to do that....but not all the time. Instead, you use the paladins to control the middle so that they can threaten all (with their shooting). Then if your opponent makes a play for the other objectives, they're going to have to go through your paladins.
9. Barges have decent range. Even their snapfire is somewhat deadly so they can still move 12" and be effective shooting-wise.
10. Plasmas on Tau isn't as prevalent as before. Competitive builds tend to go more with riptides, missile-sides and dual-Mpod tau over fireknives (w/plasmas). With the exception of the Farsight-bomb, I see most competitive Tau builds with only 1 or at most 2 units of crisis with plasmas and/or fusion. Heck, I'm more worried about plasmavets in IG armies than I am in fireknife Tau.
Basically, this list will work because it is a good TAC list as well as an anti-meta list. Right now, most lists are designed to be able to kill MEQ's or light armor. This type of list has neither. You're either firing at ultra-durable infantry or highly armoured vehicles or flyers. The dominance of S6/7-spam is largely wasted against this list and it is quite resistant to small-arms fire. Sure, meltas, lascannons and other high-strength low-AP guns can hurt it, but those types of lists are becoming rarer and rarer as armies who spam S6/7 guns are killing them. It's not perfect - no list is - but it has all the tools to handle most builds and also handle them well. I'm sure the winner of Adepticon 2013 can attest to that.
^ This is... actually a surprisingly well thought-out and solid list. I'm trying to poke holes in it, but coming up with very few because it's been catered for the current meta. And it theoretically works. I'm running on a similar principle of dropping something beefy in the opponent's backfield, scissoring them and forcing them to pick what to shoot at, and the few times it works, it works. I just need to work on my delivery system.
I'm kinda curious, why not run a wraithstar along with the draigostar?
The only problem I have with your build is that..... it's 2000pts and most games are played at 1500 to 1750. and that is alot of points- 2 ahnilation barges at 1750 and well I don't know how the build will be even relatively the same once it gets down to 1500
1. First off, the D-lord comes with Warscythe included.
2. What are the real strengths of Tau and Eldar offense? It's volume-of-fire. Yes, they can put up shots like nobody's business. It is precisely because of this why I prefer to run paladins. If you're concerned about paladins dying to them, then normal strikers/MEQ's haven't got a prayer in the world. Let me tell you, against small-arms fire, the 11-man Draigostar unit will outlast 40+ strikers/MEQ's and then some! There are just too many things that will kill MEQ's nowadays. If you want to be able to compete, you need to run ultra-tough units like terminators or lots and lots of bodies like a blob squad (or zombies) or have troops protected in flying transports (i.e. necron warriors). Normal MEQ's on foot or even in rhinos just cannot compete against the upper-tier tournament armies.
3. Lack of mobility, which is an exploitable weakness of Draigowing, is addressed to a degree with troops in flying transports. And necrons are masters at this, which is one of the reasons why they complement Draigowing so well.
4. Apothecary. Normally, I am against running an Apoc in a Draigowing build, but with Tau, the new Eldar and even daemons (Tzeentch shooting), I'm beginning to warm up to the Apothecary. The Apoc makes a tough unit even tougher, especially against small-arms fire. It also gives some protection to S7-spam and in particular, plasmas. Now paladins will be twice as likely to survive plasmas thanks to 5++ and then 5+ FNP. Draigo himself becomes a slightly better tanker with 3++ and then 5+ FNP against AP 1/2 guns.
5. The D-lord will be in the Night Scythe with the troops. When he comes in, I can drop him off in the enemy backcourt as a disruption unit. Now they need to split their resources to deal with a jump infantry T6 monstrosity as well as the other threats in my army. Just try to drop him off behind LOS-blocking terrain if possible. He then has the speed to immediately threaten many units the next turn.
Of course if I want to DS the paladins, I can always start my D-lord off on the board hiding, but usually that is not a good idea (to DS the paladinstar, that is).
6. Annihilation barges and psyfleman give me a lot of accurate high-strength shots. Focus-fire from them can even soften up tough foes behind cover. I'm not too concerned about 2+ saves as my paladins will eventually mow through those units. The vehicles will strategically pick off other, easier to kill units. Plus, they are resilient and can soak up some damage. The dread can also be a scoring unit if necessary.
7. Against Tau, all you need to know is that their sweet spot is only 15". Inside of 15", they are particularly deadly with triple shots. Outside of 15", not so. I can take advantage of that because all my guns are full strength at 24".
8. You don't necessarily have to "shove" your paladins "into the teeth of the enemy"? Although against many opponents, you would want to do that....but not all the time. Instead, you use the paladins to control the middle so that they can threaten all (with their shooting). Then if your opponent makes a play for the other objectives, they're going to have to go through your paladins.
9. Barges have decent range. Even their snapfire is somewhat deadly so they can still move 12" and be effective shooting-wise.
10. Plasmas on Tau isn't as prevalent as before. Competitive builds tend to go more with riptides, missile-sides and dual-Mpod tau over fireknives (w/plasmas). With the exception of the Farsight-bomb, I see most competitive Tau builds with only 1 or at most 2 units of crisis with plasmas and/or fusion. Heck, I'm more worried about plasmavets in IG armies than I am in fireknife Tau.
Basically, this list will work because it is a good TAC list as well as an anti-meta list. Right now, most lists are designed to be able to kill MEQ's or light armor. This type of list has neither. You're either firing at ultra-durable infantry or highly armoured vehicles or flyers. The dominance of S6/7-spam is largely wasted against this list and it is quite resistant to small-arms fire. Sure, meltas, lascannons and other high-strength low-AP guns can hurt it, but those types of lists are becoming rarer and rarer as armies who spam S6/7 guns are killing them. It's not perfect - no list is - but it has all the tools to handle most builds and also handle them well. I'm sure the winner of Adepticon 2013 can attest to that.
1) yep, but wasn't sure what the heck you were gonna do with the d.lord so I had no idea what was on it
2) While I attest that mass fire warriors would give Tau that sweet 3 shot thing at 15', this would involve taking things like etherals and mass infantry. I'm Seeing much more Ion accelerator Riptides which I'm pretty sure will be on tables. It both out ranges, out runs, and can lay down some nasty str 8 AP2 (minimally scattering ignore cover - if given the proper markerlight support it needs) I run that myself anyway. Yes, the palistar will take minimal casualties from my HYMP broadsides but they'd probably be plinking at the 2 necron fliers and or annhiliation barges if any get in range. I'd leave the riptides to fight the pallies. I think my sweet spot for my Tau build is actually more like 36' as I really don't have all that many fire warriors dismounted and 36' is where markerlights + missle broadsides and other missle pods are getting effective.
3/8) I completely agree that necrons in fliers is the way to go for objective grabbing. I do a ton of that but I've been having issues vs the new Mechdar builds that can bypass the palistar pretty easily as well as survive a ton of str 7 or 8 shooting with their annoying serpent shield and 3+ cover flat out save. Jetbikes from the new Eldar is also problematic with their always on cover save along with incredible speed (12' move + 24' flat out (turboboost)+ 2d6 assault move). They would completely bypass the palistar. With low numbers of scoring warriors from those scythes, it'd be tough to dislodge the jetbikers and they definitely can wipe out a 5 man squad in one round. With the shiruken rending, they might even be able to take out the solo'din in one round though I've not yet played this scenario on the table yet. Definitely good at blocking nids or other beasts/calvery/jet pack troops but not very good at blocking jetbikes though basically nothing in the game is other than weirdly enough horde armies where there is no place without some dudes.
I might be overblowing the Eldar here a bit but we have some long time Eldar players here who are quite good and with the new rules, I'm just too slow on the board to keep up with their super fast units as well as with their JSJ things or just straight up annoying wave serpents. I'm just glad no one's gone all wraithguard in ws's on me just yet. AP2 flamers would be annoying as hell on T6 3+ guys.
4) I've actually been thinking the same way on the apoc. I think I made the same recommendation a few posts back when someone was asking about him. I do like the guy and what he does for 10 man squads.
5) That's kind of clever actually. I had to go back to the necron codex to make sure he can even ride in a night scythe but lol and behold, he can. I might just have to borrow that one next time
6) 3 barges have held up well I'd admit and you should be able to do decently with them most game. I know I have but it just feels a bit light to me. Fire prisms or bike meltas or FMC can still make pretty short work of them though you do have some defenses vs the 2nd two things, I'm more worried about those cheap 5 point lances at BS 4 now a days. I've been out ranged many a times with the Annhiliation barges but I do admit, they are good vs squishies though I've lost my one psyfleman dread by turn 2 in the last 3 games vs Tau and about the same vs mechdar. I still really like him for the reinforced aegis non-the less. I'd probably use him in the same configuration you have as well. Incidentially the WK in default set up with the big lances are pretty sweet at dealing with some armor as well. I'd be careful of that thing too though the palistar probably has little to fear from it except that it can out range a lot of stuff.
7) I think for foot Tau, this is again true. I'm just not sure if it'd hold up vs Elite build. Incidentially, what would you be doing vs necron air force yourself? Pallies without divination is not all that stellar at anti-air. 2 night scythes would not stand up to a lot of return fire either though as you point out in 9), the annhiliation barge is probably what you forsee for this kind of role.
10) yep, completely agree on fireknife config. My big Tau tactical pretty much has my opinions on that. I run mostly pure missles or pure plasmas now with 2 weapons each when I do run crisis suits. (which I'll also admit, less often now that I have 3 riptides mwhahahaha) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/517337.page
Overall I think the list has a lot of merit and I look forward to seeing you in action with it Jy2. I really do want to see what you can do with it vs a mech-eldar or jetbike or heck at 2k points you might get a bit of both in there.
I played a game against another GK player today to test my GK+Tau build. Aside from silly shenanigans like his Mindstrike Missiles killing my Dreadknight with Perils of the Warp and both our Termi-stars fighting at Str. 6 and I 0 (2x Hammerhand and Psykout Grenades respectively), it was a pretty good trial by fire to go against a TEQ list.
This was my list:
Coteaz accompanied by:
Henchmen Squad (3 Plascannon Servitors, 2 Jokaero, 4 Bolter Acolytes, Crusader)
Techmarine w/ Conversion Beamer (I didn't know what to do with him, I wanted his bolster cover)
Psyfleman Dread
Librarian with Summoning, Shrouding, Sanctuary, grenades accompanied by:
5x Terminators w/ Psycannon, half hammers half halberds
Stormraven (TLAC, TLMM, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolt Ammo)
Dreadknight (Heavy Psycannon, Heavy Incin., Greatsword)
Crisis Commander + 1 Bodyguard, Cyclic Ion+TLMP and Plasma+TLMP, 2 Shield Drones
2x Missilesides, 1 Shield & 1 Missile Drone
6 Fire Warriors
Riptide w/ Ion Accelerator
He fielded:
Psycannon Grand Master
Librarian
20 Terminators
Techmarine w/ Conversion Beamer
Stormraven w/ TLLC, TLMM
2x Psyflemen
Being on the end that now has to shoot at an absurb number of terminators, I realized that I didn't put out enough firepower to hurt them. We were playing objectives, so he was using them to walk around and cap, rather than smash my face in. My dreadknight died incredibly fast from massed firepower of everything thrown at it, and my riptide died soon after. That basically left everything else unmolested though, so I guess they were nice (albeit expensive) fire magnets?
I was thinking of replacing my Stormraven with another DK, and giving both DKs teleport packs. There is something psychologically disturbing when there are that many MCs on the table walking towards you, I think lol. Also, kitting out my Tau allies with proper upgrade systems to turn my Crisis Commander team into an anti-air team.
The principle behind this list was a heavy shooting list that had scary MCs walking forward taking and dealing damage, while fast elements drop in behind them and use The Summoning to call the DK to butcher stuff. But my DK has never survived in any game I've tried that.
Enigwolf wrote: ^ This is... actually a surprisingly well thought-out and solid list. I'm trying to poke holes in it, but coming up with very few because it's been catered for the current meta. And it theoretically works. I'm running on a similar principle of dropping something beefy in the opponent's backfield, scissoring them and forcing them to pick what to shoot at, and the few times it works, it works. I just need to work on my delivery system.
I'm kinda curious, why not run a wraithstar along with the draigostar?
Because wraiths need other fast units to take the heat off of them. With wraiths and paladins, the target priority becomes rather easy. Wraiths are more of a threat with their speed (at least initially) and since paladins are already so hard to kill, the wraithstar will become the clear obvious choice. And your wraithstar will be brought down by the VoF that this type of list is supposed to be resistant to. IMO, wraiths work better either in an MTO-type list (that's Maximum Threat Overload) where you have multiple fast threats to make target priority an issue or as a counter-assault unit in an otherwise shooty army to both threaten the enemy and to protect your own units.
Also, I feel that in order for the list to be truly Take-All-Comer's (TAC), you need shooting to address another of the weaknesses of paladins - being able to target multiple units. Without enough shooting, this list will have problems against MSU armies, MTO armies like daemons and flyer-necrons and fast armies like the new eldar or the necron airforce. Shooting helps to balance out the list as well as to fight against those type of armies. Wraiths will never be able to catch the new eldar (unless you spam them a la MTO-style) but guns can and will still hurt them. Basically, in a 2K list, after you take out Draigo and his paladins, you have less than 1K left fo the rest of the army. With that, I try to cram as much shooting as possible into my list.
The only problem I have with your build is that..... it's 2000pts and most games are played at 1500 to 1750. and that is alot of points- 2 ahnilation barges at 1750 and well I don't know how the build will be even relatively the same once it gets down to 1500
Unfortunately, that is one of the liabilities of a Draigowing list. It works better at higher points but the lower you go, the tougher it becomes to build a TAC list with it. It can still work at 1750, though 1500 is where its weaknesses start to become more apparent. This is probably what I would do at 1750 and 1500:
1750 Necrons + Draigowing
Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS Draigo
10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, Banner, Stave
5x Necrons - Night Scythe
5x Necrons - Night Scythe
1) yep, but wasn't sure what the heck you were gonna do with the d.lord so I had no idea what was on it
2) While I attest that mass fire warriors would give Tau that sweet 3 shot thing at 15', this would involve taking things like etherals and mass infantry. I'm Seeing much more Ion accelerator Riptides which I'm pretty sure will be on tables. It both out ranges, out runs, and can lay down some nasty str 8 AP2 (minimally scattering ignore cover - if given the proper markerlight support it needs) I run that myself anyway. Yes, the palistar will take minimal casualties from my HYMP broadsides but they'd probably be plinking at the 2 necron fliers and or annhiliation barges if any get in range. I'd leave the riptides to fight the pallies. I think my sweet spot for my Tau build is actually more like 36' as I really don't have all that many fire warriors dismounted and 36' is where markerlights + missle broadsides and other missle pods are getting effective.
3/8) I completely agree that necrons in fliers is the way to go for objective grabbing. I do a ton of that but I've been having issues vs the new Mechdar builds that can bypass the palistar pretty easily as well as survive a ton of str 7 or 8 shooting with their annoying serpent shield and 3+ cover flat out save. Jetbikes from the new Eldar is also problematic with their always on cover save along with incredible speed (12' move + 24' flat out (turboboost)+ 2d6 assault move). They would completely bypass the palistar. With low numbers of scoring warriors from those scythes, it'd be tough to dislodge the jetbikers and they definitely can wipe out a 5 man squad in one round. With the shiruken rending, they might even be able to take out the solo'din in one round though I've not yet played this scenario on the table yet. Definitely good at blocking nids or other beasts/calvery/jet pack troops but not very good at blocking jetbikes though basically nothing in the game is other than weirdly enough horde armies where there is no place without some dudes.
I might be overblowing the Eldar here a bit but we have some long time Eldar players here who are quite good and with the new rules, I'm just too slow on the board to keep up with their super fast units as well as with their JSJ things or just straight up annoying wave serpents. I'm just glad no one's gone all wraithguard in ws's on me just yet. AP2 flamers would be annoying as hell on T6 3+ guys.
4) I've actually been thinking the same way on the apoc. I think I made the same recommendation a few posts back when someone was asking about him. I do like the guy and what he does for 10 man squads.
5) That's kind of clever actually. I had to go back to the necron codex to make sure he can even ride in a night scythe but lol and behold, he can. I might just have to borrow that one next time
6) 3 barges have held up well I'd admit and you should be able to do decently with them most game. I know I have but it just feels a bit light to me. Fire prisms or bike meltas or FMC can still make pretty short work of them though you do have some defenses vs the 2nd two things, I'm more worried about those cheap 5 point lances at BS 4 now a days. I've been out ranged many a times with the Annhiliation barges but I do admit, they are good vs squishies though I've lost my one psyfleman dread by turn 2 in the last 3 games vs Tau and about the same vs mechdar. I still really like him for the reinforced aegis non-the less. I'd probably use him in the same configuration you have as well. Incidentially the WK in default set up with the big lances are pretty sweet at dealing with some armor as well. I'd be careful of that thing too though the palistar probably has little to fear from it except that it can out range a lot of stuff.
7) I think for foot Tau, this is again true. I'm just not sure if it'd hold up vs Elite build. Incidentially, what would you be doing vs necron air force yourself? Pallies without divination is not all that stellar at anti-air. 2 night scythes would not stand up to a lot of return fire either though as you point out in 9), the annhiliation barge is probably what you forsee for this kind of role.
10) yep, completely agree on fireknife config. My big Tau tactical pretty much has my opinions on that. I run mostly pure missles or pure plasmas now with 2 weapons each when I do run crisis suits. (which I'll also admit, less often now that I have 3 riptides mwhahahaha) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/517337.page
Overall I think the list has a lot of merit and I look forward to seeing you in action with it Jy2. I really do want to see what you can do with it vs a mech-eldar or jetbike or heck at 2k points you might get a bit of both in there.
Draigowing will still have its weaknesses. It can be hurt by a triple-iontide Tau list just as Tau can be hurt by a triple-manticore/vendetta IG list. But it is not even close to an auto-lose situation. It might be a slightly uphill battle but it is a battle that is still quite winnable for them. I've seen Draigowing builds persevere over triple doom-scythe necrons, triple-vendetta IG, MSU razorspam lists and other lists where they considered a underdog army. You just have to play more strategically than to just march up and get shot up. Deployment is important. Try to deploy so that Draigo will be the one taking the wounds against as many of the AP2 shots/riptides as possible. With 3++ and 5+ FNP. Then focus your AB's, night scythes and psyfleman on the dreadknights. VoF is what will take them down just as it will take down dreadknights. You also get a little help from the riptide's own overcharging, which should do 1-2W of damage on average to the riptide itself (and if they're not over-charging, then their shooting isn't nearly as scary to the paladins). You can also drop your D-lord to threaten those tides and force them to focus on him if you really need to (heck, I almost feel that I need to get a Res Orb for this).
Jetbikes are a thing of beauty, which is why you need shooting to deal with them. Don't think that you will assault them. But with 3 AB's, the psyfleman and your night scythes, it is not as easy for them to hide/get away from your shooting. Let your vehicles deal with them. The palistar should be dealing with the rest of the army. With necrons, I've never had problems taking out those jetbikes and they are usually a priority target for me. As for eldar bladestorming, that's why I've added an Apothecary to the unit at 2K. He'll give them some extra protection against eldar shooting.
AB's are quite resistant to ranged shooting and if you opponent wants to take them out with melta-units or FMC's, they're going to have to move within the threat range of your paladins as generally, your paladins should be between the enemies and the barges. And if eldar wants to fire brightlances into those barges, that's 1 less brightlance firing into the paladinstar that could potentially insta-gib a paladin. The dreadnought is a weak point but the shooting and buffs that he brings is worth it IMO.
Versus Cronair, the only thing you can do is to shoot them down. AB's are excellent at killing other night scythes and their AV13 makes them practically immune to enemy tesla destructors. You then try to outlast the flyers with your paladins. That really is all you can do. With 2+, 2W each and 5+ FNP, that shouldn't be a problem.
In short, this type of list isn't perfect, but it doesn't need to be. You have to play against the meta and the current meta is infantry-killing. Most noteably of the MEQ variety. Sure there are guns that can kill TEQ's (2+ save models), but the majority of the shooting is basically small-arms. Paladins stand a better chance against this over standard infantry. Because anyone who builds their TAC lists specifically to take on Draigowing will have problems against all of the newer armies - daemons, necrons, tau and eldar. Also, the majority of the shooting nowadays is S6/7 - plasmas, necrons teslas, tau missile pods, eldar shuricannons/scatter lasers, etc. That is where AV13 vehicles excel against. Yes, there are many "stuff" that can kill paladins and AV13 vehicles, but with a TAC army, you are playing the odds against what you think is the current trend in competitive army builds at the tournament level. At least that is my philosophy on list building. I always design them with the assumption of what builds I think will be a pre-dominant competitive tournament build.
We played an ATC scenario - it was Crusade, Emperor's Will & Purge the Alien all at the same time (as well as scoring heavy supports which was determined pre-game). My opponent was poised to assault my paladinstar with his DP, fiends and seekers and then ran into a bit of bad luck. First off, I kill off his DP with 2++ Invuln (from Forewarning + Grimoire) with Overwatch, though he only had 1W left at the time. Then his seekers fail a 5" charge even with re-rolls due to fleet and that sealed the deal. I ended up winning 30-2.
I actually ran a pure grey knight list at a local tournament. I was banking on a meta change away from flyers and more xeno foot slogging armys and I was right (tau makes flyers cry). The tournament was 2250 and my army list was-
Coteaz- blank inquisitor- 4 psyback with 4 warrior in each- 2 full interceptor squad kitted out- 1 5man interceptor flamer- 3 psydread- and 3 dreadknight flamer with jump.
The list worked very well(I won the tournament) it's a very intimidating list and the flamers roast xeno like nothing. All 3 army I played was xeno tau/eldar, orcs, and new eldar serpent spam.
We played an ATC scenario - it was Crusade, Emperor's Will & Purge the Alien all at the same time (as well as scoring heavy supports which was determined pre-game). My opponent was poised to assault my paladinstar with his DP, fiends and seekers and then ran into a bit of bad luck. First off, I kill off his DP with 2++ Invuln (from Forewarning + Grimoire) with Overwatch, though he only had 1W left at the time. Then his seekers fail a 5" charge even with re-rolls due to fleet and that sealed the deal. I ended up winning 30-2.
very nice but I think FMC would have had trouble vs this kind of list too but still nice. The 5' failed charge even with fleet is pretty brutal. Average is like I think around 7' even through terrain
I actually ran a pure grey knight list at a local tournament. I was banking on a meta change away from flyers and more xeno foot slogging armys and I was right (tau makes flyers cry). The tournament was 2250 and my army list was-
Coteaz- blank inquisitor- 4 psyback with 4 warrior in each- 2 full interceptor squad kitted out- 1 5man interceptor flamer- 3 psydread- and 3 dreadknight flamer with jump.
The list worked very well(I won the tournament) it's a very intimidating list and the flamers roast xeno like nothing. All 3 army I played was xeno tau/eldar, orcs, and new eldar serpent spam.
I'm liking the interceptors a lot more now a days too just to have the positions that I want them to be at. 2250 is a kind of high points list for a tourney. Must have been a blood bath lol. Btw, what did you use for the interceptor loadout? pyscannons + psybolt and some hammer for justicar? Or you went with incinerator burn style?
Interceptor load out was x2 psycannon +psybolt. In the end I didn't have enough point for the hammer. Would have helped a bit but having hammer hand and hitting back armor 10 you need 5 and 6s. I have a theory going on ( in my local meta) since tau has come out a lot of players have stayed away from flyer list because of intercept and sky fire. And they are going to go back to on the board army's so less and less flyers and drop pod army's.
What are you guys using for reliable troops choices nowadays? Strikes seem to be out of the option due to all the AP3s around, and Henchies are just so squishy. Putting them in vehicles doesn't help either.
Enigwolf wrote: What are you guys using for reliable troops choices nowadays? Strikes seem to be out of the option due to all the AP3s around, and Henchies are just so squishy. Putting them in vehicles doesn't help either.
Hench in razor worked well for me I can reserve the razors if I really need to and the threat factor of 3 dreadknight roasting troops and 3 interceptors in your face is very scary it forces you to engage them in some way so in the end your troops for the most part will be ignored. Again it all depends on how much pressure you put on the enemy lines how you troops will survive.
Enigwolf wrote: What are you guys using for reliable troops choices nowadays? Strikes seem to be out of the option due to all the AP3s around, and Henchies are just so squishy. Putting them in vehicles doesn't help either.
Hench in razor worked well for me I can reserve the razors if I really need to and the threat factor of 3 dreadknight roasting troops and 3 interceptors in your face is very scary it forces you to engage them in some way so in the end your troops for the most part will be ignored. Again it all depends on how much pressure you put on the enemy lines how you troops will survive.
I was looking at using this, or allied Tau in beefed up Devilfish (4+ jink) and outflanking Kroot. Thoughts on this?
Conflagration wrote:I actually ran a pure grey knight list at a local tournament. I was banking on a meta change away from flyers and more xeno foot slogging armys and I was right (tau makes flyers cry). The tournament was 2250 and my army list was-
Coteaz- blank inquisitor- 4 psyback with 4 warrior in each- 2 full interceptor squad kitted out- 1 5man interceptor flamer- 3 psydread- and 3 dreadknight flamer with jump.
The list worked very well(I won the tournament) it's a very intimidating list and the flamers roast xeno like nothing. All 3 army I played was xeno tau/eldar, orcs, and new eldar serpent spam.
crusaders actually still work pretty well with me but they are kind of expensive. Also, running behind tanks sorta work too. I like it when they just wreck as it serves as cover since it's still there to block LOS.
Conflagration wrote: I actually ran a pure grey knight list at a local tournament. I was banking on a meta change away from flyers and more xeno foot slogging armys and I was right (tau makes flyers cry). The tournament was 2250 and my army list was-
Coteaz- blank inquisitor- 4 psyback with 4 warrior in each- 2 full interceptor squad kitted out- 1 5man interceptor flamer- 3 psydread- and 3 dreadknight flamer with jump.
The list worked very well(I won the tournament) it's a very intimidating list and the flamers roast xeno like nothing. All 3 army I played was xeno tau/eldar, orcs, and new eldar serpent spam.
The meta at our store has been like that. I have a feeling we both go to the same FLGS since some players I know told me about the same list you ran! It sounds terrifying for pretty much all of the new books. Everyone still seems to think foot slogging your whole army is really good. Nice way to take advantage of that! Its nice to see GK win the tournament at the store for once.
I'm going to try running a no-Stormraven (following your meta!), high threat-saturation list tomorrow with 2 reserved Firewarrior squads in the highly-mobile devilfishes with Dreadknights and a Riptide. I'll post some feedback on using that tomorrow!
Enigwolf wrote: I'm going to try running a no-Stormraven (following your meta!), high threat-saturation list tomorrow with 2 reserved Firewarrior squads in the highly-mobile devilfishes with Dreadknights and a Riptide. I'll post some feedback on using that tomorrow!
Honestly, to me that doesn't sound like a very good idea. Devilfishes are expensive and neither really highly resilient nor highly mobile (no more so than just a regular rhino in terms of mobility). But if you're going to run them, I'd suggest bringing along an Ethereal. Also, you don't always have to reserve them, depending on what type of ranged AT your opponent has and what else you've got in your army. Just keep in mind that sometimes, it may just be better to leave them deployed along with the rest of your army.
Enigwolf wrote: I'm going to try running a no-Stormraven (following your meta!), high threat-saturation list tomorrow with 2 reserved Firewarrior squads in the highly-mobile devilfishes with Dreadknights and a Riptide. I'll post some feedback on using that tomorrow!
Honestly, to me that doesn't sound like a very good idea. Devilfishes are expensive and neither really highly resilient nor highly mobile (no more so than just a regular rhino in terms of mobility). But if you're going to run them, I'd suggest bringing along an Ethereal. Also, you don't always have to reserve them, depending on what type of ranged AT your opponent has and what else you've got in your army. Just keep in mind that sometimes, it may just be better to leave them deployed along with the rest of your army.
Yeah, I realized the same after looking at my Codex: Tau once more. For some reason I had it gotten in my head that skimmers move faster, but I had got that confused with fast skimmers. Also, disruption pods are not cheap. Back to the drawing board... I'm just having a frustrating time being able to reliably field troop choices that are mobile and durable to claim objectives, and terminators are just not cutting it for me with their points costs.
Enigwolf wrote: I'm going to try running a no-Stormraven (following your meta!), high threat-saturation list tomorrow with 2 reserved Firewarrior squads in the highly-mobile devilfishes with Dreadknights and a Riptide. I'll post some feedback on using that tomorrow!
Honestly, to me that doesn't sound like a very good idea. Devilfishes are expensive and neither really highly resilient nor highly mobile (no more so than just a regular rhino in terms of mobility). But if you're going to run them, I'd suggest bringing along an Ethereal. Also, you don't always have to reserve them, depending on what type of ranged AT your opponent has and what else you've got in your army. Just keep in mind that sometimes, it may just be better to leave them deployed along with the rest of your army.
Yeah, I realized the same after looking at my Codex: Tau once more. For some reason I had it gotten in my head that skimmers move faster, but I had got that confused with fast skimmers. Also, disruption pods are not cheap. Back to the drawing board... I'm just having a frustrating time being able to reliably field troop choices that are mobile and durable to claim objectives, and terminators are just not cutting it for me with their points costs.
For Tau, it's better to ally them for their strengths, which is more firepower. If you want mobile troops, you may have to look elsewhere (necrons, biker marines, maybe eldar jetbikes assuming they are allies of convenience - don't have my book with me) or just put scoring units in ravens.
Yes, Eldar are AoC to GK -- the reason you never saw them together before now was because the old Runes of Warding really got in the way of GK squads doing their thing. The silver lining in the RoW nerf means that now, Eldar Allies to GK actually can be a thing. In fact, I'm bringing some of them (GK w/ Eldar Allies) to some games tomorrow. Trying out a Spiritseer + 5 Wraithguard in a Wave Serpent and seeing how that goes with GK Stuff.
The list right now is something like (1500):
Coteaz
Spiritseer
5 Wraithguard (w/ Cannons) in a Serpent
2x 10 man Strike Squads w/ Psycannons & Psybolt & whatever
Plasma Cannon Servitor Henchmen Unit (w/ ablative Acolytes)
2x Psyfleman Dreads
ADL w/ Comms
Hello guys ..Sorry to bother you but I can't find an entry for that :
In FAQ it states that the daemonhammer has the "daemonbane" special rule..My question is what is "daemonbane" ?? Is it like fleshbane but for daemons , meaning I always wound daemons on a 2+ ?
Spectral wrote: Hello guys ..Sorry to bother you but I can't find an entry for that :
In FAQ it states that the daemonhammer has the "daemonbane" special rule..My question is what is "daemonbane" ?? Is it like fleshbane but for daemons , meaning I always wound daemons on a 2+ ?
Thanks in advance
P54 of the GK codex - and daemon or psyker that gets wounded must take a leadership test at the end of the assault phase. If failed, the model is removed as a casualty. Doesn't matter if you have force or anything else actually.
I think it was one game wayyyy back in 5th when a necron lord MSS'ed a paladin and hit draigo who was also in the squad. I failed a save and then boxcar'ed my ldr check causing draigo to be instantly removed lol. It was kind of silly but doesn't honestly happen all that much. Maybe more useful if I ever got to charge nids.
I'm also secretly getting some more Eldar to go with my GK. Shhhh don't tell my Tau. they'll get jealous.
Had a 3 round mini-tournament today and my fun GK + sisters list actually ended up winning.
Basic run down was:
coteaz + 2 jokaero + 2 bolter henchmen + 2 plasma cannon servitors
Sitting on top of a bastion with the Icarus las cannon. (using prescience + w/e other divination power was useful)
Bastion HB turret was manned by a 5 man retributory squad with 4 heavy bolters (as each firing point allows 2 units to shoot through it, it was 5 possibly rending heavy bolters firing each turn)
5 man strike squad with psycannon just for warp quake (hiding most times)
10 gal sisters squad with multi-melta + meltagun
St. Celestine + 5 seraphrim with 2 hand flamers
DK with incinerator and teleporter.
Dreadnaught with AC+psybolts
Storm raven with Multi-melta and lascannon
It's kind of a silly list but was generally pretty sturdy. Bastion with the strike squad nearby holds down a corner while the foot sisters generally support the psyfleman on a middle flank while the DK + sisters are going up 12' or just deep striking (the sisters anyway - and then the DK shunts near them to be my far flank with hopefully the strom raven providing some support fire / anti-tank.)
I thought it was kind of a soft list since I have no redundancy and not all that many models or a particularly deadly thing going on but some people thought it was cheese anyway. I'll admit that I've run this list about 80+ times as I judge it to be a fairly good trainer list to provide some threat at every level and practice against myself with it too to see if I got what it takes at all different targets and ranges. It faced off against mech guard with vendettas and survived. It blew up noisemarine + double drakes + oblits (actually tabled him by turn 5) - I got lucky here with getting ignore cover + prescience and jokearo's 5++ invul saved quite a few times. His blast masters actually hit most times. The last round was vs the new Eldar who was taking a melee MC build (experimental - which actually won his prior 2 games handidly killing off draigowing and double heldrakes.)
It took about 4 units shooting the wraithknight over 3 turns to kill it finally (AC dread + coteaz's prescience squad + storm raven by turn 2 + retributor squad trying to get rend's and 6's in general) to down it. It's definitely beastly to take out with conventional fire power) Got lucky and interceptor fired down his crimson hunter and a jetbike squad failed 2 morale saves ( but stayed on the board) but the rest the flamers took care of.
Anyways, just wanted to share. I'm pretty convinced that my biggest contribution to success here was that I've literally run this list into the ground as my tester list and learning what to do with everything is still going to be the biggest contributor to if you can do well with a list or not.
Next phase, build 20 more interceptors. Post game, I realized that the above was already doing the interceptor shunt albeit with just 2/3 units. St. Celestine + flamer serpahrim + incinerator DK into the backfield has pretty much cleaned house for me each time. (although the DK did die turn 2 vs the IGlol. Fire on my target with a 30 man blob with Autocannons and then 3 chimeras and melta vets and plasma command squad and another plasma squad took it down in one go with 12 armor saves + 6 invul saves)
First off, congrats on your RTT. You don't necessarily need an uber-GK list or even a spam-list to win. Experience and really knowing how to utilize your army goes a long ways. And it helps that probably most opponents don't know how your list works.
One of the weaknesses of the GK's is a lack of mobile scoring units, especially of the cheap variety. Eldar with their jetbikes (or wave serpents) addresses that issue. Also, the wraithknight is a cool model and I think he will work well with the dreadknights. The farseer can buff his own units, especially guide/prescience on the wraithknight.
It really depends on what kind of list you are building. Tau are great allies for a gunline build while taking a few counter attack/warpquake assets with you for GK detatchment. The reverse would make it too assault and if you want more shooting alone, take pure Tau or IG. Or possibly with eldar allies to help with more shooting.
The GK/Eldar build above actually has some good synergy. Having played quite a lot of fast MC's, having 4 of these things flying into your face with str 10 AP2 attacks, really sturdy, and all moving at 12' or 30' shunts, puts pressure on an enemy gunline really fast. Even as a pure Tau gunline, It'd be hard to kill all 4 tough MC's in one or two rounds of shooting. Coteaz lets you reroll to try and seize so you may not be getting the first turn which lets these guys close before you get a 3rd shooting phase and then they will be in your lines.
Granted I only had a small partial gunline but it still took me about 3 turns of shooting to just down the one wraith knight with rerollable las cannons + rending HB's and other str 8 weapons along with needing my air assets to focus on it from turn 2 on. Shunting DK's into my backfield by turn 2 would incinerate quite a bit of my firepower and also need me to refocus my target priority which further lets things close. Incinerators would be very dangerous to things like pathfinders/marker drones because I can choose the position my flamer comes from (as I can move much further for my turn) and will be able to flame them and ignore any iridium suit commander you may have up front.
The monster mash here will be succeptable to tarpit armies and fliers spam or MSS spam I suppose from enough D.lords but would be a big threat to most things out there including riptides. You'd need some very specific misslesides with attached puretide commander giving monster hunter to be able to down these guys easily enough or possibly with enough crisis double plasma teams but a riptide would not actually do that well vs these things before they close. (especially if you are taking the IA which will still need 3's to wound the GK's and needs 5's to wound wraith knight)
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Enigwolf wrote: I'm actually surprised your Bastion lasted so long against mechguard with vendettas... Did the player forget that he could blow up to Bastion?
I got lucky too and got forewarning and while we're not sure on the legalities, was allowed to cast it on the bastion since I had people inside manning it so hey, it survived 6 manticore strikes only getting 2 glances I only actually saved just one pen, nothing much else happened to it. Also lascannons are actually kind of bad vs the bastion since it still needs 5's to even glance it which just results in a wound to people inside. You can only really destroy it with meltas and rolling 5's on the explosion chart. Pretty sturdy building!
LValx wrote: I guess I just feel that there are much better allied options for GK. Tau being one of them.
It's not so much as which ally is better for the knights as it is what type of playstyle you want?
For me, I envision 4 fast and tough MC's controlling the board whereas my other units just shoot away. It may not be the most optimized build, but if you think it isn't a tough build to play against, you may be in for a surprise. But more importantly, IMO it looks like a fun build to play, at least to me.
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LValx wrote: I find the Wraithknight to be very lack luster and would much prefer to have a Riptide, which compares favorably in speed.
They serve different purposes. The riptide is a good shooter (especially with Markerlight support) and can give you either good anti-TEQ firepower or some anti-flyer firepower. The wraithknight is used more to control the board as an all-around threat and has decent AT, especially when buffed up by a farseer.
The wraithknight by his lonesome may be lack luster, but when he is used in conjunction with other units, can be effective. In any case, he is a fire magnet that will keep the heat off of the scoring vehicles as he attracts all the high-strength shots.
Yeah, I understand the thought process. I just find the WK to be a bit overpriced for what you get. He's sub par in combat, sub par at shooting. I find the Riptide to mesh well with DKs as well since they are both 2+ MCs that are fast and can shoot pretty infantry very well.
LValx wrote: Yeah, I understand the thought process. I just find the WK to be a bit overpriced for what you get. He's sub par in combat, sub par at shooting. I find the Riptide to mesh well with DKs as well since they are both 2+ MCs that are fast and can shoot pretty infantry very well.
So are tervigons. So is a Tau commander without any guns but with a lot of the other gadgets instead.
Some units may not be the best offensive unit, but what they provide to the army is a lot of tactical flexibility and strategic options. The wraithknight may not be the best fighter or best shooter, but to many opponents he is a threat and a very dangerous one, both to their tanks, to their infantry and to their characters.
The Riptide is such a good unit that it can work well with almost any allies. However, strategically, while he is a good shooter, he doesn't provide the threat to the opponent as 3 dreadknights and a wraithknight advancing towards the enemy does. That doesn't mean he is bad, it just means that you need to play these 2 lists much, much differently strategy-wise.
I don't have a copy of the Eldar 'dex, so I'm thinking about picking it up. I'm just wondering about the abilities of the Wraithknight and if it's a viable inclusion. The debate on here and thus far been too inconclusive for me to decide.
LValx wrote: Yeah, I understand the thought process. I just find the WK to be a bit overpriced for what you get. He's sub par in combat, sub par at shooting. I find the Riptide to mesh well with DKs as well since they are both 2+ MCs that are fast and can shoot pretty infantry very well.
So are tervigons. So is a Tau commander without any guns but with a lot of the other gadgets instead.
Some units may not be the best offensive unit, but what they provide to the army is a lot of tactical flexibility and strategic options. The wraithknight may not be the best fighter or best shooter, but to many opponents he is a threat and a very dangerous one, both to their tanks, to their infantry and to their characters.
The Riptide is such a good unit that it can work well with almost any allies. However, strategically, while he is a good shooter, he doesn't provide the threat to the opponent as 3 dreadknights and a wraithknight advancing towards the enemy does. That doesn't mean he is bad, it just means that you need to play these 2 lists much, much differently strategy-wise.
I had a good discussion with a friend of mine that is big into a lot of forge world stuff that I haven't explored nearly as much. When I brought up the MC mash list he basically showed me an IG entry for the armored fist squadron that made me go wow. 15 point upgrade for HQ vanquisher tanks - Beast Hunter shells, 72' str 8 ap2, 3' blast - instant death.... This is usually going to be a Bs4 shot which might have hatred from own armored group buffs or can get divination from allies or just straight up twin link itself from coaxial storm bolter fire.
I had to do a quick double take and was amazed that this thing existed. Riptide overcharge that shield harder might be the better way here lol. On the other hand... it is IG armored battle group. I've never actually seen one taken at a tournament yet and we allow forgeworld here.
ABGs with Elysian Drop Troops... Now you just gave me a really nasty idea sudojoe.
Anyways, back to my original question. Do you see extensive uses for Eldar allies compared to Tau? Would it be worth my investment to pick up a copy of the Codex for that purpose? (No intention to start an Eldar army)
Enigwolf wrote: ABGs with Elysian Drop Troops... Now you just gave me a really nasty idea sudojoe.
Anyways, back to my original question. Do you see extensive uses for Eldar allies compared to Tau? Would it be worth my investment to pick up a copy of the Codex for that purpose? (No intention to start an Eldar army)
I had to do some test games to see what my answer to this would be and after much soul searching I'd have to say yes.
It's a totally different playstyle mind you so it's not going to be for everyone. My Eldar contingent is also very selective and favors my take on them though I have fought against and can see the strength of many other builds.
Tau+GK is a great gunline with deepstrike protection and some good anti-cc abilities provided by the GK. I think it's probably the most optimal use for GK+Tau builds as there's not a whole lot of different things in general you can do with them. Tau are not mobile enough to dependably get to the enemy backfield. They can't really support assault and if you do lock things in assault with say a DK, then you just invalidated your allies abilities to shoot potentially. Gunline at its finest however and realistically can shoot most things to death and counters quite a few tactics hard.
Eldar GK is very different beast. I use mine completely based on speed and is very refreshing to play from the gunlines after a while. Also more fun most times for my opponents. People get pretty upset with interceptor but if they fail to kill or wound, it feels more like their fault and so they don't start yelling at me lol.
JY2's build above is a good example as it is very fast and can put pressure on targets that you want. I think it works and will do well unless you got stupid things like the armored battle group and monster hunter shells...
I personally have changed my mind so many times on the combo and so far enjoy just fast things though not as competitive. If I go GK main, I can't really benefit all that much from just a single farseer that can't even buff my own guys so I've been taking 2 rolls on the telepathy tree along with one on the divination tree most times. I also can't take warlock councils. So if you are building a detatchment, consider spirit seers (thought is a bit tougher to use from the ld9) Wraith knights and DK's really do synergize quite well. I enjoy proxying mine still (gawd so expensive for a single model that's not even Apoc) With the Lyanden supplement, you can consider spamming the telepathy tree which has some really nice powers that can be very game changing. Just need to get them into range with at least 1-2 wave serpents.
Warpsiders are also stupidly fast as are jetbikes which can further cause havock to support GK shunt moves. The Fao'chu's wing thing is also kind of a crazy wargear that lets something run 48' like a super reusable shunt (though you can't shoot) along with a mantle of the laughing god which can make something like a geared up autuch like a mini-MC by himself that's also crazy fast. Wave serpents in general can get other units you want into position by turn 2 fairly reliably. Some DK's to flame hordes and some wraithguard with str 10 ap2 guns to blow up tanks and thus allow you to flame them some more. There is some random synergy with the runes of battle as well if you get the one that decreases enemy armor saves, you can insta kill quite a lot with the heavy incinerator now.
Essentially it boils down to this:
GK+Tau = gunline and GK offers gunline support for the most part. I don't see too many variations that would go beyond this overall strat.
GK + Eldar = can do a Gunline but I think Tau does it better
GK + Fast Eldar = plays more like a shunt type list (probably best ally for this kind of build) but can also just use the Eldar as late game mobility scoring as that's one thing GK doesn't do well with if you feel like keeping your GK gunline.
I've got a (relatively) large IG army and am looking to support it with some GK allies. Warp Quake and some CC ability should be beneficial to a big IG gunline (though mine is mechanized). Here's my thoughts so far:
Fought Tau+Eldar last night with Nids as my ally (2v2)
Wanted a bit more mobility, so I took Draigo + friends in a LRR, also Interceptors and a jumppack DK. 1500 apiece.
DK managed to roast about every bit of troops they had on his first shunt before he got taken out by being shot in the leg from across the board (literally the only part of him visible from behind cover to the rest of their forces).
The LRR got Draigo and friends into a fortification where one of the objectives was and they pretty much didn't get shot at for the entire rest of the game.
I was kind of amazed the LRR managed to last as long as it did, shrugging off ridiculous amounts of damage from the Tau, it finally gave up when the Tau player deep-strike no-scatter'd right next to it and melted it with 3 fusion blasters; but hey, he had to do that otherwise the LRR would be in his back-line right next to his broadsides.
Held back the interceptors since the board basically had no cover, they were well within 30" for the shunt move to grab multiple objectives on the final turn, but we called it when the store was about to close up. We had 4 objectives, first blood, and they had 0 objectives, heh.
Stealing the initiative is so silly!
I like the ideas of adding in Eldar for added mobility. Draigo footslogging with buddies is very slow.
I clobbered together this list. I've played it three times with minor changes to what it is now, first against Ravenwing, Chaos (2x Flying DP & triple Heldrakes), and then Flying Circus Nids. Close draw, major win, close win (1VP on The Scouring).
3x Stealth Suits (1 of which has Fusion Blaster and Target Lock)
Riptide (Ion Accelerator, Early Warning Override)
2x Broadsides (Both with Velocity Tracker, HYMP and SMS) + 1 Shield Drone
Total: 1998 points
I've effectively been hiding in ruins that my Techmarine bolsters with Coteaz's firebase, the Broadsides, and the Pathfinders. My Stealth Suits go tank-hunting, and my 3 MCs either "bubblewrap" around my firebase (if I go first) or are in optimal firing positions (if I go second). The "Deathstar" acts as my quick response force to take out critical threats (e.g. 9x Hive Guard). Fire Warriors and Fireblade walk on when needed to claim home objectives or rapid fire nearby threats to pieces.
The thing I've found is that my Stealth Suits have proven to be miserably bad in the two games I fielded them, barely scratching whatever they shoot at (BS3 suckkks :(). Tactically, I know I don't use the Dreadknights' 30" jump enough (I've only ever used it once in 3 games) and twice they've died to other MCs (Trygon Prime, CSM Daemon Prince).
As a result I feel like removing my Stealth Suits (100pts exactly). I could beef the Pathfinders and Broadsides with the points, or give another PC Servitor to Coteaz's squad. Or I could add a Strike Squad. Thoughts?
Oh yeah, I completely forgot that Coteaz can't replace one power (He can replace Hammerhand, but only 2 powers can be replaced).
My "Deathstar" is deepstriking onto the table. I've used them for backfield harassment, objective claiming, and intercepting swarms. It's a throwback to how I used to play my Draigostar.
With regards to the Heavy Psycannon, my FLGS is MEQ-heavy, and most of the good players know how to position themselves to get minimal Flamer-template hits. Especially since it's not a Torrent weapon, it's too situational on positioning. Large Blast has worked out significantly well for me, allowing turn 1 potshots to snipe off entire GEQ groups. As a Jump MC, it has a threat range of 24"+12" jump. I've used it to snipe an entire 'gaunt brood on turn 1 and another time to kill a Cultist bubblewrap. With a good strength value, it's still a threat to other MCs and can potentially hurt light vehicle squadrons (War Walkers, Sentinels, the small Ork walkers) quite well. It can also instagib GEQ multi-wound characters at range with it's strength.
Now, it may be that I'm playing it differently from how you would, which I guess might be to instantly teleport it into backfields. However, the rest of my army composition is a little squishy and relies on the DKs and the Riptide holding the home fort for a turn or two before moving into their backfield. This has the added advantage of then causing them to have an army stretched out (typically heavy fire support units in the back, troops and assault elements at the midfield). Thus, when my DK goes behind and wrecks stuff, they are either forced to turn their attention to the DKs or my own deployment.
Simply put, the Heavy Psycannon offers me more utility for my play style and environment/local meta.
Played two games a couple of days ago, with a 1500 GK/Eldar List.
The List was:
Grey Knight Grand Master w/ ALL THE GRENADES (keeping sword)
Xenos Inquisitor w/ ALL THE GRENADES, Psyker, various xeno inquisitor swag.
Spiritseer
5 Wraithguard w/ Cannons in Wave Serpent (Scatter/Cannon/Holo)
2 x 10 GKSS w/ various stuff (Psycannons, psybolt, some weapons)
Dreadknight w/ Sword, Flamer, Teleporter
First was against a Daemons list, with Bloodthister, 2 Khorne Princes, unit of bloodcrushers, bloodletters, and plaguebearers. He got unlucky with his Thirster and fluffed his attacks twice against my Dreadknight, which eventually got a wound through and killed him. He then charged everything into one Strike squad, I barely held with the Psychotroke and Blind Grenades, and then I charged my other Strike squad into the combat the next round. Psychotroke, Blind, Rad, and Psyk-Out grenades two rounds in a row really does a number on CC units, and he conceded after I managed to kill his two daemon princes. We were playing the Relic, which didn't come into play at all.
I made some tactical mistakes, prescience on the wrong unit, redundant Grand Mastery (I forgot that GK have PE against Daemons) instead of Counterattack, but the impact of all these grenades can't be underestimated. We're playing on 4x4 boards, so the CC ability of GKSS comes into play a lot more than it usually would.
Next was against a Ravenwing Player, with Sammael, Command Squad w/ Bolter Banner, Bunch of bikes, Darkshroud, Devastators (2 LC, 2 ML), Whirlwind, Sniper Scouts, Techmarine. I got first turn. My WS killed the Darkshroud first turn. Then his bikes came and deleted one squad of GK, leaving only the inquisitor. I then did a bunch of shooting that killed a whole bike squad, and Sammael, and my Inquisitor luckily got into combat with a whole other bike squad, and didn't die in a challenge, tying up his firepower. He also failed his Hit and Run roll to get away. Later I blew up his Whirlwind and his command squad, and most of his remaining bikes. It eventually came down to the fact that I only had one strike squad left (he'd killed my Wraithguard as well), and he had one objective with his scouts, and his last bike unit managed to contest the objective my guys were holding turn 5, and the game ended. I didn't space my guys out quite correctly, I think if I had I would have won. Oh well, lesson learned.
The main problem with the Strikes that I've encountered is one that's been pointed out before -- they're 20 points or more, but are only as survivable as a normal marine. However, I don't think there's many squads that can take the whole firepower of a bolter banner list.
The Eldar allies helped out a lot in the second game -- the Wave Serpent is not to be underestimated. It's just so much firepower in such a survivable package, and I really love the wraithguard + spiritseer combo.
Thariinye wrote: The Eldar allies helped out a lot in the second game -- the Wave Serpent is not to be underestimated. It's just so much firepower in such a survivable package, and I really love the wraithguard + spiritseer combo.
Yeah, the wave serpent has some really potent shooting.
Played against an eldar list with only 1 serpent. That serpent ended up killing my 325pt Warlord Daemon Prince and a heldrake and it survived the game with 1 HP remaining. They can be really good.
Especially since it's not a Torrent weapon, it's too situational on positioning.
it is a torrent weapon...
also if you are spreading out for flamer templates, I'm guessing the psycannon will hit about the same number of guys though I guess the rending will help
Recently I played against a Chaos Daemons player. When I cast Dark Excommunication from my Dreadknight which was in cc with a DP, he told me that the spell has no effect since Chaos Daemons do not use Daemonic Gifts anymore.
Is this true? I looked at the GKFAQ, but nothing is mentioned there. Has that spell become obsolete?
Especially since it's not a Torrent weapon, it's too situational on positioning.
it is a torrent weapon...
also if you are spreading out for flamer templates, I'm guessing the psycannon will hit about the same number of guys though I guess the rending will help
...I completely forgot that it has the equivalent of a Torrent special rule. XD But yeah, Psycannons have done more for me than Heavy Incinerators. I played a game today against Ravenwing with the same list having two DKs, one with a Heavy Incinerator instead this time. The Heavy Incinerator didn't really account for much damage. The Heavy Psycannon did a heck lot more, and Rending really helped.
Recently I played against a Chaos Daemons player. When I cast Dark Excommunication from my Dreadknight which was in cc with a DP, he told me that the spell has no effect since Chaos Daemons do not use Daemonic Gifts anymore.
Is this true? I looked at the GKFAQ, but nothing is mentioned there. Has that spell become obsolete?
Ask him to see his daemons codex, page 61, very top first paragraph right above where it says "Ranged weapons" It's in very large print which makes it seem like it's just decoration at times and many have missed it.
Spell working as intended.
...I completely forgot that it has the equivalent of a Torrent special rule. XD But yeah, Psycannons have done more for me than Heavy Incinerators. I played a game today against Ravenwing with the same list having two DKs, one with a Heavy Incinerator instead this time. The Heavy Incinerator didn't really account for much damage. The Heavy Psycannon did a heck lot more, and Rending really helped.
The ravenwing would get their armor save I'll grant that but would so against both weapons though the str 7 will still wound on 2's for T5 while the incinerator would wound on 3's. They still get a jink save vs the rending though.
I just find that the incinerator denying saves and cover from a lot of cheap troops/pathfinders/guardsmen/a lot of eldar units or even necron warriors have paid off for me more often since I don't scatter at all with the thing. I'll leave the ravenwing generally to plasma guns or if I get lucky, perfect timing plasma cannon servitors.
...I completely forgot that it has the equivalent of a Torrent special rule. XD But yeah, Psycannons have done more for me than Heavy Incinerators. I played a game today against Ravenwing with the same list having two DKs, one with a Heavy Incinerator instead this time. The Heavy Incinerator didn't really account for much damage. The Heavy Psycannon did a heck lot more, and Rending really helped.
The ravenwing would get their armor save I'll grant that but would so against both weapons though the str 7 will still wound on 2's for T5 while the incinerator would wound on 3's. They still get a jink save vs the rending though.
I just find that the incinerator denying saves and cover from a lot of cheap troops/pathfinders/guardsmen/a lot of eldar units or even necron warriors have paid off for me more often since I don't scatter at all with the thing. I'll leave the ravenwing generally to plasma guns or if I get lucky, perfect timing plasma cannon servitors.
True, but as I said before, this list was geared towards my MEQ-heavy FLGS meta. I'm thinking of equipping one with a Heavy Incinerator and one with a Heavy Psycannon. The jink save vs. rending is still a worse save compared to their armour save, and it reflected in their tally. Although, I have to say, this is my second Ravenwing game, and the second time I lose a Dreadknight to a force axe...
After much reading out the newest forge world offerings... I'm seriously wondering if we'll soon be at the end of our DK superiority as well...
possibly with the next marine or IG codex - we're looking at quite a ton of fleshbane weapons and equipment some of which you are already seeing in the new eldar codex but needing 6's to instant death but totally doable with like a pack of wraithguard with distort cannons and or heavy str 10 distort weapons on the wraithknight at 36' range out
The necrons for example in the newest forgeworld offering IA12 have an IC with an AP 2 instant death melee weapon. There is also the heavy artillery pylons of 120' str 9 ap2 heavy 2 interceptor/skyfire/gauss..ya good game storm ravens lol (and I thought saber defense platforms were bad)
The IG have Beast hunter shells for Vanquishers at 72' range str 8, ap 2 and has instant death (and easy to get preferred enemy on it as well)
New marines are kind of the same which doesn't bode well for us either (I do like the automated turrets though too bad it's heavy support) The suicide drop pod assault cannon run or deathwind pod is kind of funny though and I do approve of it. Too bad Gk doesn't have those :/
sudojoe wrote: After much reading out the newest forge world offerings... I'm seriously wondering if we'll soon be at the end of our DK superiority as well...
possibly with the next marine or IG codex - we're looking at quite a ton of fleshbane weapons and equipment some of which you are already seeing in the new eldar codex but needing 6's to instant death but totally doable with like a pack of wraithguard with distort cannons and or heavy str 10 distort weapons on the wraithknight at 36' range out
The necrons for example in the newest forgeworld offering IA12 have an IC with an AP 2 instant death melee weapon. There is also the heavy artillery pylons of 120' str 9 ap2 heavy 2 interceptor/skyfire/gauss..ya good game storm ravens lol (and I thought saber defense platforms were bad)
The IG have Beast hunter shells for Vanquishers at 72' range str 8, ap 2 and has instant death (and easy to get preferred enemy on it as well)
New marines are kind of the same which doesn't bode well for us either (I do like the automated turrets though too bad it's heavy support) The suicide drop pod assault cannon run or deathwind pod is kind of funny though and I do approve of it. Too bad Gk doesn't have those :/
It's almost like FW tries to balance the current meta. Flyers annoying? Here's a few option to blank them. MC's too tough? Here's a few options to make thier high toughness irrelavent.
It's almost like FW tries to balance the current meta. Flyers annoying? Here's a few option to blank them. MC's too tough? Here's a few options to make thier high toughness irrelavent.
I feel like that's a good step for a game company. Makes for much more challenging and interesting games and less spammy. However, it seems like the marines aren't really getting any of the love. The minotaurs for example really don't have nearly as much crazy stuff as necrons. The fliers remain overcosted to a fair degree while their tanks are essentially stuck with lascannons and the odd flamestorm cannon.
Only the contemptor dreads/ automated turrets / special drop pods really catch my eye. None of which are really GK available. Heck some of the turrets for the new pred plasma destroyer may have been useful but we don't get those either. Marine bodies with bolters are still the main line and there's a lot of anti-marine builds at this point. (rending shirukens and AP2 spam or AP3/2 torrent flamers I'm looking at you) And they didn't even change the basic points listings. Are Marines that good already?
I'm very curious what they plan on doing by the IA varks series version 2's for the inquisition forces as currently we just have a very very expensive Thunderhawk for apoc and nothing for regular games. All of the land raider Helios / Helios whirwinds / land speeder tempests / mortis pattern contemptors are for marines and not for GK's. If you play GK's in a forgeworld allowed environment, it's actually quite bad right now if people took the good units. we're way behind in the new development cycles.
Let's face it. GK doesn't have anything good from FW, unless we take allies. In which case we don't get BBs and sacrifice other good allies like Tau and Eldar. I think we do get the Stormeagle, but I don't remember.
I also want to see those two damn Inquisitors become actually half-decent like some of the other FWICs and not just fluff babies.
Enigwolf wrote: Let's face it. GK doesn't have anything good from FW, unless we take allies. In which case we don't get BBs and sacrifice other good allies like Tau and Eldar. I think we do get the Stormeagle, but I don't remember.
I also want to see those two damn Inquisitors become actually half-decent like some of the other FWICs and not just fluff babies.
Hector Rex isn't too bad, he does have a storm shield. =p I'd use him over Coteaz if he was allowed to swap out for BRB powers. I'm just not too sure how the FW inquisitors are ruled for 6th or if they are even 40k approved.
Of all the forge world updates since 6th edition lanch , this includes aeronitical, ia #1 relaunch, ia #3 relaunch, ia #12 have seen a lot of changes with decent updated units for most factions except gk. In fact, we've been deliberately left out for new options. It just feels strange to me. Rex has no official update to function in 6 th as far as I know.
The storm eagle is only avail to all marines including sw but not gk or ba
Enigwolf wrote: Well, what are you using Hector Rex for? Close combat shenanigans? Get a GKHQ instead. Coteaz is a far better support Inquisitor.
I'd use him in tandem with coteaz becuase he's a scoring lvl 2 psyker with a 2+/3++ with an additional wound for only 25 pts more than a libby. But since it doesn't look like he can swap powers I hesitate to pick him up.
How are you guys dealing with MechDar Wave Serpent spam?
I played 3 games today against a list that included a Farseer with Jetbike squad, 5 Wave Serpents (Holofield, Serpent Shield, Shuriken Cannon, TL Scatter Laser), 2 Fire Prisms, 1 Wraithknight. Inside the WSes are 3 Guardians, 1 Fire Dragon and 1 Wraithguard.
If I stand off at range to him, he just whittles me down turn by turn, outranging my shooting with his 72" and 60" weapons (Fire Prisms and Serpent Shield). If I come in close, midrange he just rapes me with all his shooting, and close range he can disembark to get a ton of Bladestorm shots off. I feel like Wave Serpents are terribly imbalanced for what their posts cost can do. 4+ Cover, with 2+ turning pens into glances with front armor 12. Yeah, he can't do that once he drops Serpent Shield, but he only needs to do it for 1 turn, and if I hit anything hard the next turn, he just leaves its Shield on for the following turn.
Enigwolf wrote: How are you guys dealing with MechDar Wave Serpent spam?
I played 3 games today against a list that included a Farseer with Jetbike squad, 5 Wave Serpents (Holofield, Serpent Shield, Shuriken Cannon, TL Scatter Laser), 2 Fire Prisms, 1 Wraithknight. Inside the WSes are 3 Guardians, 1 Fire Dragon and 1 Wraithguard.
If I stand off at range to him, he just whittles me down turn by turn, outranging my shooting with his 72" and 60" weapons (Fire Prisms and Serpent Shield). If I come in close, midrange he just rapes me with all his shooting, and close range he can disembark to get a ton of Bladestorm shots off. I feel like Wave Serpents are terribly imbalanced for what their posts cost can do. 4+ Cover, with 2+ turning pens into glances with front armor 12. Yeah, he can't do that once he drops Serpent Shield, but he only needs to do it for 1 turn, and if I hit anything hard the next turn, he just leaves its Shield on for the following turn.
Shoot the cutties, cut the shooties, stay at best range until hiding in CC is the better option. Pretty none of those adages still works versus Mechdar.
Enigwolf wrote: How are you guys dealing with MechDar Wave Serpent spam?
I played 3 games today against a list that included a Farseer with Jetbike squad, 5 Wave Serpents (Holofield, Serpent Shield, Shuriken Cannon, TL Scatter Laser), 2 Fire Prisms, 1 Wraithknight. Inside the WSes are 3 Guardians, 1 Fire Dragon and 1 Wraithguard.
If I stand off at range to him, he just whittles me down turn by turn, outranging my shooting with his 72" and 60" weapons (Fire Prisms and Serpent Shield). If I come in close, midrange he just rapes me with all his shooting, and close range he can disembark to get a ton of Bladestorm shots off. I feel like Wave Serpents are terribly imbalanced for what their posts cost can do. 4+ Cover, with 2+ turning pens into glances with front armor 12. Yeah, he can't do that once he drops Serpent Shield, but he only needs to do it for 1 turn, and if I hit anything hard the next turn, he just leaves its Shield on for the following turn.
Shoot the cutties, cut the shooties, stay at best range until hiding in CC is the better option. Pretty none of those adages still works versus Mechdar.
SJ
And what do you do about 5 Wave Serpents, 2 Fire Prisms, and 1 Wraithknight that just obliterates anything that tries to get close to cut them?
Enigwolf wrote: How are you guys dealing with MechDar Wave Serpent spam?
I played 3 games today against a list that included a Farseer with Jetbike squad, 5 Wave Serpents (Holofield, Serpent Shield, Shuriken Cannon, TL Scatter Laser), 2 Fire Prisms, 1 Wraithknight. Inside the WSes are 3 Guardians, 1 Fire Dragon and 1 Wraithguard.
If I stand off at range to him, he just whittles me down turn by turn, outranging my shooting with his 72" and 60" weapons (Fire Prisms and Serpent Shield). If I come in close, midrange he just rapes me with all his shooting, and close range he can disembark to get a ton of Bladestorm shots off. I feel like Wave Serpents are terribly imbalanced for what their posts cost can do. 4+ Cover, with 2+ turning pens into glances with front armor 12. Yeah, he can't do that once he drops Serpent Shield, but he only needs to do it for 1 turn, and if I hit anything hard the next turn, he just leaves its Shield on for the following turn.
Shoot the cutties, cut the shooties, stay at best range until hiding in CC is the better option. Pretty none of those adages still works versus Mechdar.
SJ
And what do you do about 5 Wave Serpents, 2 Fire Prisms, and 1 Wraithknight that just obliterates anything that tries to get close to cut them?
I'll telling you, it's the return of the psyfleman.
All the new codices coming out, the psyfleman is extremely useful.
Necrons & Chaos Space Marines - take out the awesome flyers. You can even take out the annihilation barges and double-out the wraiths.
Chaos Daemons - soooo many units you can insta-gib. Works well against the FMC's as well, at least more so than the psycannons.
Tau - insta-kill the suits and broadsides.
Eldar - your best solution to serpents. They've got the range and strength to really hurt those serpents. Can also take down the wraithknight on a good day.
More importantly, you get awesome psychic defense in a meta where the trend is shifting towards psychic-heavy armies.
Time to seriously consider bringing back those psyflemans.
..But, but, but... Dreadknights. :( (Those Wave Serpents can still put out a horrendous amount of Str 6 shots though. It's enough to glance one Psyfleman to death per turn at least)
Enigwolf wrote: I'm still waiting for someone to show me a TAC list that will do well against the MechDar Wave Serpent spam...
we've been working on one. So far it's been drop pod allies (like SW with melta and a rune priest to JAWS other MC's in the backfield - also if you allow forge world, a deathstorm drop pod with assault cannons can be very fun to drop behind them) + Interceptors as a shunt list. Deep striking suicide strike squads can sorta work too. 5 man with psycannon to the rear with psybolts as combat squad from a 10man.
Alternatively Tau allies or main with broadsides and your own Eldar allies with wave serpents backing up a shunt type list.
Mech IG main with GK counter assault assets also sorta work. Armored company if you allow forgeworld is fairly able to brutalize the wraithknight with Beast Hunter Shells and exterminators and weight of fire can take down the lance serpents. Most Eldar take more scatter lasers and mix match only in some lances.
Telekinesis and hope for puppetmaster also works very well. See my anti-wave serpent thread:
I do like psyflemen dreads but I find it hard to always take 2 or 3 when I have gotten to like the DK's. I'll have to give 2 of them a try again and just go 1 DK (might give him a sword or something - and possibly take a wraith knight with default warp cannon thing as an ally wmahahahaha)
Enigwolf wrote: ..But, but, but... Dreadknights. :( (Those Wave Serpents can still put out a horrendous amount of Str 6 shots though. It's enough to glance one Psyfleman to death per turn at least)
Dreadknights can be torrent to death also, especially with the amount of rending guns eldar can bring. Besides, chasing the serpents is a horribly inefficient way to kill them.
Enigwolf wrote: I'm still waiting for someone to show me a TAC list that will do well against the MechDar Wave Serpent spam...
The best way to take them down is to shoot them. I think a shooty GK+Tau build can do the job.
At 2K, if I were to go shooty, I'd go something like this (pts will be a little off since I don't have my Tau codex with me right now):
Coteaz
Tau Commander - CCNode, MSS, 2+/T5, Drone Controller - maybe 170-pts? Don't have my Tau codex
why the drone controller? It doesn't work on missile drones in this scenario. Get some interceptor or puretide chip instead. I do like the overall build. Lots O-tanks.
I'm almost wondering if it'd better to use a chimera wall instead of the psybakcs given how I envision this thing playing out. replace the purifiers in rhinos with v.dred psyflemen!
Good catch. Yeah, drop the DC for the Puretide. MSU still works and is still competitive IMO. It's just not top-tier anymore.
Chimeras can work as well, though psybacks are better shooters, especially against flyers. If you want, you can sub out some of the psybacks for chimeras, though I would recommend any more than 3.
You need the purifiers. They are your main source of counter-assault and can deal with hordes with Cleansing Flame. Sure, they won't survive if your opponent focuses on them, but then again neither will the dreads. However, if they wreck the rhino, at least you have a bunker to hide behind that may preserve some of those purifiers. Moreover, you are not that strong against land raider builds. At least psycannons have a chance to kill them.
Taking 5 dreads actually unbalances this list. Purifiers are there to make it more balanced, with counter-assault, good shooting and some anti-horde.
Played a variant of the list I posted earlier, except this time with a Bastion in it, with good results. I posted this in the "Why no love for the bastion?" thread:
I got around to playing my Bastion-included GK+Tau list today. I saw 3 Broadsides in it with Pathfinders on the roof while Coteaz took another squad and sat in Techmarine-buffed ruins with a Servitor/Jokaero squad.
Needless to say, I had neigh-on-unkillable shooting platforms. My Bastion was only destroyed after two Melta shots on Turn 4 when his Stormraven finally got in range. By that point in time my Bastion, which allowed me to better position my Broadsides and Pathfinders, had wiped out my opponent's GKSS, GKT, Dreadknight, and Purgation squads. The Broadsides took 1 wound despite suffering 2d6 and then 4d6Str 6 hits, and after disembarking, promptly shot down the offending Stormraven.
All this firepower going into the Bastion basically left Coteaz's squad free to drop multiple Servoskull-buffed, Prescience'd Plasma Cannons and Lascannon shots on the rest of his army. I also had 2 Dreadknights and 1 Riptide advancing up his front. The devastating alpha-strike by my Broadsides made them such a credible threat that he just tried to focus them down while ignoring my other units.
So I'm going to bring my grey knights again for another local tournament. But this time it's 1850. Still high points but now I have to bring less toys. I'm going to try my shunt and punt list again the list is as followed.
Hq Coteaz
Troop
3 psybacks with 4 warriors in each
4 man monkey squad with 5 warriors
Fast
2 ten man interceptors psybolt and 2 psycannon
Heavy
3 dreadknight Teleporter flamer
And the defence line with lascannon
It's a simple list take the interceptors and dread knights and shunt them up while the psybacks and monkey squad support fire. I really want to try the monkey squad hope they can help with that long range support that grey knights lack.
looks interesting but why 4 monkies? You won't get any of their buffs in that case. Needs a bit more counter-air possibly but I guess that will depend on your local meta.
We have min of 2 fliers each side now a days unless one side brings Tau which usually means just one side has 2-3 fliers and other has 0 -1
With 4 monkeys I can get. 4-5-6 on the roll for the buff yea it's not the best but I'm using them to bust up anything with 2+ or wave serpents since 5 lascannon will at least glance it to death. Yeah I do lack some AA. 1 intercept lascannon is ok. But I play 3 dread knight for max carnage and fear tactics. Dreadnought are getting better but I like playing aggressive lists and the dreadnought fills a long ranged support role.
Any comments for the following list?? (I am against Eldar and for AA I 'll have to deal with one flyer all in all)... As for your previous conversation about allies I believe that the Inquisition is in our codex for that reason (Just my opinion though I'm still a noob in this game )
Fast Atk:
10x Interceptor Squad w/ 8x swords + 2x Incinerators + Psy ammo 320
Heavy Support:
ND w/ Incinerator + Personal Teleporter 235
Dreadnought w/ Heavy Flamer + DCCW with build in Heavy flamer + Psyflame ammo + Searchlight 131
Coteaz + Henchmen into a ruin witch previously the Techmarine has bolster for a 3+ cover save , Terminator Squad is going to combat squad with 2x Psycannons + 3x Halberds joining the Ordo Malleus Inq walking and shooting and the rest (3x Halberds + 2 TH ) DP near a servo skull if possible) ,Vindicare into a ruin for a 2+ cover (I 'll probably infiltrate him), Teckmarine joins the Purifier Squad intto the Rhino (maybe they 'll come from reserve depending deployment) , Interceptor + ND maybe "jump" first round or trying to reach enemy with Jump packs in order bake any infantry unit or anything (their role depends on what the Eldar list includes, they are here to give mobility to the list + they are solid units IMHO) finally the Flamernaught is there to walk trying to survive providing reinforced aegis + it's powerful atks and Heavy flamers-Incinarators...
Well for a fun game and testing out what works in your list its good. But if your going for at least semi competitive you have to stream line your list dreadnoughts 99% of the time is 2 cannons with psybolt best long ranged shooting and psychic defence we got. As far as the henchmen try not to mix close combat units with ranged units like monkeys and arco. Again your list will give you an idea what is worth keeping and what is not. Trial and error.
Now I can't understand which of my henchmen you consider as close combat?? the servitors+ monkey are my heavy guns the 3x plasma guns are there for the extra plasma that GK can't bring in their game and the rest warrior acolytes are there for soak dmg (I just thought that 10 extra points for their storm bolters are worth it for extra shooting power) .. I firstly thought of running this list with 3x Psyflemen and a full GKSS but then I decide that I 'll include the DK and the Interceptor Squad instead , in order to give mobility to my list ..for the extra 130 points I could include a 5 man GKSS with a Psycannon and take some extras (like Psy ammo for the Terminators) but then I considered the Flamernought (which I expected everyone to vote agaist him actually) as I think it has more survivability than 5x marines and I 'll walk him providing my Terminators the Reinforced Aegis ..I don't expect it to survive but it's better to take some hits instead of my DK or the Terminators..
I don't know if this strategy is going to work actually ..theoretically it will but I ask you in order to take some feedback ..Anyway thank you again for your reply
Yea sorry was just a slight mixup I was at work and just skimmed through it. But it seems like a solid list. I used a list a while ago where I was using necron/grey knight and only used 1 dread knight. I have to say that that dreadknight was the MVP 5 out of the 6 games. Just keep in mind not to go all in on the first turn since your list is not made for that. It's just better to hold back the shunts for later in the game.
Conflagration wrote: With 4 monkeys I can get. 4-5-6 on the roll for the buff yea it's not the best but I'm using them to bust up anything with 2+ or wave serpents since 5 lascannon will at least glance it to death. Yeah I do lack some AA. 1 intercept lascannon is ok. But I play 3 dread knight for max carnage and fear tactics. Dreadnought are getting better but I like playing aggressive lists and the dreadnought fills a long ranged support role.
with the chance to get 4-5 6 in this case does nothing. The 4 gets you rending lascannons which to be honest probably doesn't do anything at all. The bolter henchmen gets some rending bolters which have been of dubious use with how few there are. The monkies already come with a 5+ invul so you really just get rending las cannons. I think 2 is the best but I can see why you'd want 4 in one squad since you don't have that much divination to go around possibly perhaps.
5 lascannons will actually take quite a while to glance one to death. hitting 3-4 hits on average with divination, pen/glance 3+ so 2ish pens/glances and then get one jink (4+), to 1 pen/glance which will most likely get converted to just one glance.
It'll take you around 3 turns to glance one to death with very average rolling (possibly 2 if you get lucky). Probably not what you want to have in mind I guess.
Ok for the above list I've posted I did some math and thought of some improvements:
take out the Purifier Squad (178 points) + the Search light from rhino (1) and take out the Flamernought (131) leaving me 310 points ..
I 'll add another DK (235) plus another Henchmen squad of 5x Deathcult assassins w/ 5x power swords + 5x power axes (75) joining the Techmarine in that rhino..
Don't you think it's better ?? the problem is that I don't know if I have to include 2-3 Crusaders with the Deathcult assasins in order to withstand some dmg from shooting as they can't assault the turn they disembark from rhino ...
Actually what I can't decide is if 215 points in a CC unit + a rhino worth it ??
First of all, why are you kitting out Coteaz's squad that much? They're going to walk into a ruin and sit there and shoot... You don't need Carapace Plasma Gunners and Stormbolter acolytes. If you're walking, you're snap-shotting everything else, meaning your 3 PC servitors can't fire. If you're sitting in ruins and shooting, you can be assured that you will rarely ever get an opponent within 24", much less 12", in which case you should be more worried about them charging you. Also remember that Coteaz is not Eternal Warrior and does not have an invul save. Give him normal Bolter acolytes and a Crusader or two to tank Heldrakes and other Ignore Cover stuff, and sit him in the ruin permanently. If you want plasma gunners, put them in a Chimera. As was mentioned, 4 Jokaero in a squad is either overkill, or too ineffective. Especially with Prescience, it's not worth it.
Give your Techmarine Psychotroke Grenades, and have him take the Servo Skulls instead, I believe his are 2pts cheaper than the GM's, and use that to take a 3rd servo skull. In a 3'x2' table, 3 gives you optimal placement either for reducing your scatters or preventing Ravenwing Scout move deployments. Give your Terminator Squad Psybolt Ammo.
Give your DCAs a few Crusaders, and take more vehicles if you're planning to drive them across the board. Otherwise, expect that Rhino to turn into an easy 1st blood for your opponent's anti-tank weapons leaving your CC henchmen squad stuck either in your deployment or halfway across the board.
Save your DK's Jump for the middle or end of the game. Doing it first turn exposes it to all the gunfire from your opponent and their potentially scary CC units. Most armies have a mix of a firebase in their DZ and an "attack" element that marches up towards you. Exploit this by giving them the tough choice of whether to turn around and save their firebase from your teleporting DK, or to continue on and lose their firebase.
Well, got a look at the Apoc book and I gotta say it looks so pretty!
Baneblades everywhere. GK's got a few special power units but in my personal case I gotta get 1-2 more DK's and 1 more SR lol. The crowe lead purifier helstorm template looks "interesting" but I seriously wonder how well so many expensive power armored bodies will survive with all the craziness out there to get my template stronger than str 2 AP6 lol.
For those w/o the book - it's 3 DK formation buffing eachother, Crowe and units of purifiers shooting a helstorm template, and a DK marking things for 3 storm ravens that can't miss the target marked and mindstrike/psybolt do more damage
I dunno, the necrons seem to be the stars of the show and of course IG for being the most powerful looking things on APOC, The Khorne mower is actually pretty good on paper if it can get into close combat. I'm actually very upset somehow that only the battle sisters didn't get any super formations. I've got over 600 bucks of sisters (And way too many hours painting them) and I don't want them to go the way of the squats. I'm hoping that it was just a major oversight instead of reading too much into things.
edit: woot! 2000th post!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Apparently we'll also be getting this thing. Could be fun. Not very survivable without a lot of things to suck up fire but could be fun.
Assassinorum Murder Squad (GK)
1 of each type of assassin
3 wounds apiece, 5+ FNP
Eversor gets +2D6 attacks instead of 1D6
Vindicare's weapons gain Soul Blaze
Callidus' Neural Shredder is S9
Cullexus' Speculum is S6
I'm thinking I'll be running this for LOL's and depend on D weapons (i.e. GK titan scratch build rawr! Or volcano cannons or maybe the scratch build turbo laser destroyer GK thunderhawk with psycannons) I dunno if I can take apoc seriously enough to actually come up with tactics for the thing.
From the Enter the Citadel event, I learned that GK will be getting more datasheets with Chaos in the Pandorax Warzone. Phil Kelly was heavily involved in writing it.
I looked at the Apoc book and I feel 2 GK formations are worthless. The Purifier Formation? So I thought sweet crowe can join a massive unit. Than I read the formation rules and the cheese still stands alone. Getting insta gibbed by bolter fire still.
The second; the DK formation. Shred? Really? It's an Apoc game, I'm sure those DKs are already toting a sword, teleporter, flamer and cannon/lancer.
I really don't feel too excited about apoc from GK perspective so far and with how much our guys cost along with so many ignore cover AP2/3 things, I may just end up with a bunch of brother captains in henchmen chimeras lobbing orbital bombardments all over the place. Should hit something! All in all, Apoc has been about fun so I don't really expect too much competitive games or at least anything to base a competition over anyway. It's definitely the fun beer and pretzles kind of 9 hr long game
Coyote81 wrote: Let the start of the 5 Orbital strike relay list begin. At least that's my plan. Accompanied by SRs and DKs.
Need to have some chimeras for the terminator knight captains to ride into battle though. Worth it for the protection. Forget the 5 orbitals, go with 15 of them!
Hey welcome back JY2. when we gonna see some GK action
Good crons vs mechdar fight though. I liked it. Kept forgetting that the farseer was T4 due to jetbike XD
GK vs serpent spam is pretty bad. Give it a shot and see if you can beat it down. It'll really test your generalship as it's a pretty lousy for GK fight.
I actually have a match coming up tonight against GTKA666 and I'm going to bring my Greyzilla list. I've changed it a lot from earlier in these posts. It's not a balanced build, but it looks like a heck of a fun build to play.
The 2K list that I will be using:
Draigo
Laughingseer - farseer on jetbike w/Mantle of the Laughing God
3x Hammerdins (separate squads)
5x Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent
3x Guardian Jetbikes w/Shuri-cannon
3x Dreadknights - Teleporters, Heavy Incinerator
Wraithknight
jy2 wrote: I actually have a match coming up tonight against GTKA666 and I'm going to bring my Greyzilla list. I've changed it a lot from earlier in these posts. It's not a balanced build, but it looks like a heck of a fun build to play.
The 2K list that I will be using:
Draigo
Laughingseer - farseer on jetbike w/Mantle of the Laughing God
3x Hammerdins (separate squads)
5x Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent
3x Guardian Jetbikes w/Shuri-cannon
3x Dreadknights - Teleporters, Heavy Incinerator
Wraithknight
This is literally the most insane, awesome list I have ever seen.
This really makes me want a Wraithknight, and another Dreadknight.
hey guys, going to a doubles tournie with a mate who is playing tau, its 1000+250 points per team, the 250 being a single unit that can either start on the board or in a special reserve.
He is going to take triple riptides and I was planning on triple dreadknights, so yes 6 monstrous creatures
If I take one knight as the bonus unit, how would you build a 1000 point list with 2 knights in it? Also only need 1HQ 1 troop compulsory.
tuiman wrote: hey guys, going to a doubles tournie with a mate who is playing tau, its 1000+250 points per team, the 250 being a single unit that can either start on the board or in a special reserve.
He is going to take triple riptides and I was planning on triple dreadknights, so yes 6 monstrous creatures
If I take one knight as the bonus unit, how would you build a 1000 point list with 2 knights in it? Also only need 1HQ 1 troop compulsory.
Cheers gk players
Draigo and a few Solodins will free up points for your NDKs.
jy2 wrote: I actually have a match coming up tonight against GTKA666 and I'm going to bring my Greyzilla list. I've changed it a lot from earlier in these posts. It's not a balanced build, but it looks like a heck of a fun build to play.
The 2K list that I will be using:
Draigo
Laughingseer - farseer on jetbike w/Mantle of the Laughing God
3x Hammerdins (separate squads)
5x Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent
3x Guardian Jetbikes w/Shuri-cannon
3x Dreadknights - Teleporters, Heavy Incinerator
Wraithknight
This is literally the most insane, awesome list I have ever seen.
This really makes me want a Wraithknight, and another Dreadknight.
Haha. That is exactly what I did. I only had 2 DK's. I then got the WK actually for my eldar army. With 3 of the 4 MC's already, I finally got my last DK.
tuiman wrote: hey guys, going to a doubles tournie with a mate who is playing tau, its 1000+250 points per team, the 250 being a single unit that can either start on the board or in a special reserve.
He is going to take triple riptides and I was planning on triple dreadknights, so yes 6 monstrous creatures
If I take one knight as the bonus unit, how would you build a 1000 point list with 2 knights in it? Also only need 1HQ 1 troop compulsory.
Cheers gk players
Wow...that is just....evil.
There are 2 ways to play such a build.
The first is what jeffersonian suggested - Draigo and troop paladins/soladins - and deepstrike them. Such an army is very aggressive.
The second is to take Coteaz and a shooty firebase. They will be the shooty support for your dreadknights, though with 3 riptides, you've already got a lot of firepower.
tuiman wrote: hey guys, going to a doubles tournie with a mate who is playing tau, its 1000+250 points per team, the 250 being a single unit that can either start on the board or in a special reserve.
He is going to take triple riptides and I was planning on triple dreadknights, so yes 6 monstrous creatures
If I take one knight as the bonus unit, how would you build a 1000 point list with 2 knights in it? Also only need 1HQ 1 troop compulsory.
Cheers gk players
Wow...that is just....evil.
There are 2 ways to play such a build.
The first is what jeffersonian suggested - Draigo and troop paladins/soladins - and deepstrike them. Such an army is very aggressive.
The second is to take Coteaz and a shooty firebase. They will be the shooty support for your dreadknights, though with 3 riptides, you've already got a lot of firepower.
When we went to this event last year, it was our first ever tournie, and I was pretty new to both gk and 6th edition. There were a lot of real cheesy lists, and my team got the wooden spoon haha. Now Ive been playing for the past year, have a lot more experience under my belt, we will take no quarter
It should be a real fun list to play, although we came up with another one with 3 hammerheads and 3 land raiders but I think mc spam is better.
Original idea of a list is here:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/541185.page
Was thinking of a gm + 6 termies as kind of a counter support for the tau gunline, but maybe draigo and lots of solodins would be better?
Brutal fight. I love it! Seem like you are definitely making those warpsiders pay off for you. I like how they would synergize with interceptors as well in a foot list. I've run that before as more of a soft list for some friends so they don't get overwhelmed by all the MC's lol.
So this year there is no doubles, so no cheesy triple knight/riptide list, its 1850 normal.
I've ran Draigowing for my two tournies this year, first time I did alright but second time round I got stomped by the new tau, and there is a lot more AP2 around.
SO looking at different builds just wondering what people think is the best for gk in the current tau eldar meta?
1.Triple dreadknights, either with Mordrak/interceptors or something else
2. Triple landraiders, not many seem to take things to deal with lots of AV14 these days, combine this with Coteaz and henchman to get more bodies, load up some crusaders with deathcults?
3. Strike spam, simple but still effective?
4. Allies? Tau or eldar maybe, Im wondering if I could take jy2's monster list and cut it down to 1850 points?
Anyway, would like to hear what people have been having good results with at the moment, and looking for ideas on what to take, cheers.
I'll find out soon enough. I'm taking grey knights to a tournament....and it's going to be Draigowing! It's going to be at 2K and a grueling 6-games 2-day event with probably 200+ people. It's not pure GK, with necrons as allies, but it has the potential to do well. What am I taking?
2K "Draicronic Measures" NecroKnights
Draigo
Coteaz
10x Paladins - "the works" including Apothecary
1x Hammerdin
Psyfleman Dread
Psyfleman Dread
Allies:
Necron Overlord - 2+, MSS, Warscythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
Annihilation Barge
It's not a very balanced army and it'll actually be the first time I am taking Draigowing to a tournament, but if I/my team doesn't make it to the Top 10, then I will be disappointed.
tuiman wrote: So this year there is no doubles, so no cheesy triple knight/riptide list, its 1850 normal.
I've ran Draigowing for my two tournies this year, first time I did alright but second time round I got stomped by the new tau, and there is a lot more AP2 around.
SO looking at different builds just wondering what people think is the best for gk in the current tau eldar meta?
1.Triple dreadknights, either with Mordrak/interceptors or something else
2. Triple landraiders, not many seem to take things to deal with lots of AV14 these days, combine this with Coteaz and henchman to get more bodies, load up some crusaders with deathcults?
3. Strike spam, simple but still effective?
4. Allies? Tau or eldar maybe, Im wondering if I could take jy2's monster list and cut it down to 1850 points?
Anyway, would like to hear what people have been having good results with at the moment, and looking for ideas on what to take, cheers.
I think against Tau, if you take an Apothecary, then you will be ok. It won't be an easy fight, but the trick against Tau is to deny them their shooting and to control the middle IMO (with a Draigowing build).
1. This is definitely a scary build for Tau. I like the Mordrak Shunt-knights build and they've got the speed+resiliency to really give Tau problems.
2. While Tau ironically are less prepared to deal with AV14 nowadays, this is not an autowin build for the GK's Trip-LR's really don't have the firepower to stop the Tau. Also, don't under-estimate the firepower of Tau. I brought a triple-LR/triple-hellturkey competitive Chaos build against a triple-riptide Tau list and he easily dispatched of 2 of my LR's and 2 turkeys. My last LR had to stay near my objective because of the troops inside. A good, balanced Tau list should have the tools to deal with land raiders. It may not necessarily be as effective as the olden days with S10 railguns, but if it cannot deal with LR's, then it isn't a good and balanced Tau list.
3. Striker-spam will more likely than not lose against a good Tau list. Tau are just too effective at killing MEQ's nowadays. Striker can still win if they get a good alpha-strike, but overall, IMO this would be an uphill battle for the knights.
4. Definitely. Allies will help with one of the GK's greatest weaknesses - mobile scoring units. I especially like necrons for their troops in flyers or eldar for their jetbikes. Another good addition is IG for they staying power. The trend for competitive 40K nowadays is power combos. Either with psychic powers or allies. Unfortunately, as much as I prefer to stick with just 1 homogenous army, I'm finding it more and more tempting (as well as fun!) to include allies.
BTW, my monster list at 1850 would probably look something like this:
Draigo
Autarch - Jetbike, Banshee Masks, Fusion Gun, Laser Lance, Mantle of the Laughing God
Nemesis Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Personal Teleporter
Nemesis Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Personal Teleporter
Nemesis Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Personal Teleporter
Wraith Knight
Total - 1850
Basically, I would reserve all my "soft" units - soladins and jetbikes and probably warp spiders and Draigo as well (if I have to, deploy 1 soladin on an objective and out of LOS). Draigo will attach to a soladin and soladins will deepstrike.
My purifier spam list has been on hold ever since 6th ed ( its the basic net list 3 dread 6 squad in rhino 2x psycannon)
do i now need to change this list because I feel its not gonna work anymore since no one uses them anymore and the current meta with all the eldar serpents flyers and tau gunline i feel psycannon are nothing special anymore
weirdly enough, I've been playing a very similar by feel Tau list that feels very much the same as my old purifier build as it is essentially str 7 spam with the farsight enclave. Well, technically closer to terminator spam as each guy shoots 4 str 7 shots (though no rending) and it's mostly foot.
I think purifiers can still do ok but needs to use the rhino as either just a mobile wall if you want to leverage their assault potential as well.
Tau crisis suits are fairly similar when it comes to just their shooting potential.
I think though with the frequency of heldrakes as such a hard counter to expensive foot MEQ, most lists tend to go cheap acolytes or paladins which still offer quite a few things that are unique for GK's.
Sudojoe, with the Farsight supplement out and your experience with working on the changes/tactical thread for Tau, I wanted to get your thoughts on this. Previously, running a HBC Riptide relied on a support commander or a bunch of Markerlights to make sure he doesn't Gets Hot! himself to death, but now we get the ECPA which essentially makes the Riptide able to field a HBC on his own, effectively.
What's your take on fielding Farsight allies over pure Tau allies, given the ECPA Riptide, and that you can also field Crisis suits as a pretty mobile (mandatory) Troops choice and the Mirror Codex for 5+ Seize for a shooty GK+Tau army?
Super Newb wrote:Do you guys think 3 Dreadknights is a must, or can 2 work, depending on what else the list brings?
You definitely don't need 3 DK's as 2 are fine especially as the other heavy slot can go to a psyfleman dread who will provide some much needed Aegis protection for your units and is still a fine use of points. Less efficient than the necron annihilation barge but so is pretty much everything else in the game.
Enigwolf wrote:Sudojoe, with the Farsight supplement out and your experience with working on the changes/tactical thread for Tau, I wanted to get your thoughts on this. Previously, running a HBC Riptide relied on a support commander or a bunch of Markerlights to make sure he doesn't Gets Hot! himself to death, but now we get the ECPA which essentially makes the Riptide able to field a HBC on his own, effectively.
What's your take on fielding Farsight allies over pure Tau allies, given the ECPA Riptide, and that you can also field Crisis suits as a pretty mobile (mandatory) Troops choice and the Mirror Codex for 5+ Seize for a shooty GK+Tau army?
I'm still a big fan of the IA personally for the riptide as mine tends to be as far away as possible most times lol but I think the HBC + ECPA is a fine combo to let him stand on his own though it's funny but I actually find myself assaulting quite a lot with my riptides. Yes, it sounds like madness but hear me out. WS2 hits things on 4's fairly nicely and can hit vehicles on 3's even if moving. WS1 would need 5's to hit most things and even needs 4's to hit moving vehicles. I often interceptor fire so people tend to count the riptide out for a turn and the ability to carry on an assault with a fairly tough creature that can get Str 10 (often rerollable as I prescience with eldar allies) This serves to tie up any deep striking units I didn't wipe out, destroy those annoying drop pods that continue to harass at my men, or even tie up a big blob of things for many turns. I've often charged khorne dogs and just held them up for a long time as the rest of the army focus down other slower assault units. Sure my riptide is tied up, but it's still better than the rest of the forces eating dirt naps and I do tie up quite a lot of points. The key is to know how many points you are trading at any one time (which means a lot of memorizing or guesstimations on every codex out there). Getting the charge off with smash is actually gives you 3 attacks as well and it has wiped out a lot of unsuspecting folks.
Anyways, with the HBC, I tend to get uncomfortably close (in my opinion) to depend more on charges and while I'll have a better chance of 3++ with the ECPA, most times the things I charge tend to give me my armor saves and rarely will I try to charge anything I need the 3++ on (as those tend to be more combat focused elements) A riptide can charge and win or tie up other armies shooty elements in most cases but dedicated close combat will beat it almost every time. The ECPA as you suspect, however, is great with the HBC by itself especially in multiple riptide lists as you probably won't have the marker lights around to support everything and you only have so many allied farseers.
I generally like the generic Tau lists better but I suspect that's just my personal preference. Coteaz + mirror codex is actually pretty nice as it puts you almost at 50% of stealing the initiative. For my allies for GK tau, I've focused more on gunline builds with combinations of broadsides/IA riptides/marker drones commander with some outflanking kroot to score an objective. It's stable and fairly reliable but heavy crisis suits builds would essentially give me mobile missle sides with 2nd of plasma replacing the missle broadsides (due to points) and going from 2+ armor to 3+ though I gain mobility. cheap kroot is also removed and I'm usually forced to get something like a hammerhead or skyray due to points. Also my support commander is going to lose his T5/2+ iridium armor which generally decreases my marker drone survivability not to mention the puretide chip which I often get to join him to the broadsides and or riptide to get tank hunter/monster hunter. I just haven't felt that 6 crisis suits + skyray or hammerhead or possibly sniper team has been worth the trade off. Taking 6 suits + 3 broadsides with missles makes me just want to go ahead and go Tau main and then throw in some GK allies instead as I'll need more markerlights to support that kind of army. I'll just have some GK counter assault and or just more dakka elements instead.
Per older fluff, Grey Knights are allies with Eldar via Harliquins and the Black library. GK / Eldar armies are fluffy, so to speak, even if heavy on the crunch.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Per older fluff, Grey Knights are allies with Eldar via Harliquins and the Black library. GK / Eldar armies are fluffy, so to speak, even if heavy on the crunch.
SJ
Well at least that's something, trying to think of fluff for necron or tau allies was very hard to do
Tau is easy, just pretend they are like the space monkies that are willing to work with the GK who will take any and all advantages vs daemons.
Necrons would just be like brofist blood angels
technically necrons hate the warp as in their lore, the old ones were masters of the warp and they have invented many anit-warp tech such as the pylons on Cadia that keep the eye of terror corridor at bay.
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daedalus-templarius wrote: Picked up my Wraithknight today, can't wait to start messing with some GK Dreadknight/Eldar Wraithknight builds.
I bought mine in parts as it came in cheaper from bits sellers by 20 bucks over even the regular sales Unfortunately I don't have the instruction manual so I'm just trying different combinations till it looks like what it should look like I think...
I was thinking of a way for GK to combat Tau...would the ability to bring 5 tooled up dreadknights be a bad idea? I am serious in this thought... All with teleporters, sword, flamer and gattling.
EmperorsChampion wrote: I was thinking of a way for GK to combat Tau...would the ability to bring 5 tooled up dreadknights be a bad idea? I am serious in this thought... All with teleporters, sword, flamer and gattling.
Yes because the Gatling Psilencer is awful. That aside, you still couldn't do this unless you were playing 2k and above anyway.
So I'd like some opinions on this army idea. Basically is comes down to a GK Coteaz lead army spamming cheap troops backed up by Farsight enclave army of elites suits/riptide/broadsides.
I haven't played my Grey Knights since late last year now and looking at the meta now, I'm finding it a lot more difficult to see how to build a top-notch Grey Knight army without allies like I used to. My old Strike Spam with Ravens and Dreadknights is screwed against Heldrakes, and taking Rhinos means dropping too many guys and losing Psycannons. And speaking of Psycannons, it seems the new Xenos books all like long ranged fire fights making Psycannons a lot less useful.
So my question is this, what are competitive tournament players running for Grey Knights to compete with the current meta? I looked at Draigowing with IG blob backed by Raven/Vendetta and Dreadknights, but something about it feels wrong to me, though maybe its just because I'm still used to a time when Strikes were way better than Paladins. This doesn't look to be the case anymore.
I know what you mean. Someone asked me to help them with a good GK build for 6th, since they knew I used to do very well with my old one in 5th. But I just don't see them being competitive as the main army in 6th right now. I see them more as a convenient ally.
Another problem is that our guys pay a premium for all having Force Weapons, but these are also a lot less useful with a lot more T3 AS5 guys running around rather than last year's MEQ environment.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: though maybe its just because I'm still used to a time when Strikes were way better than Paladins. This doesn't look to be the case anymore.
Disclaimer - I barely played at all under 6th rules
I don't see how Paladins are better than Strikers (as troops). Wound allocations shenanigans don't work anymore for Paladins under 6th, so aren't they worse than before now?
Godless-Mimicry wrote: though maybe its just because I'm still used to a time when Strikes were way better than Paladins. This doesn't look to be the case anymore.
Disclaimer - I barely played at all under 6th rules
I don't see how Paladins are better than Strikers (as troops). Wound allocations shenanigans don't work anymore for Paladins under 6th, so aren't they worse than before now?
I never said Paladins are better than Strikes. You are missing the overall point regarding the meta.
Last year the way things were, for equal points Strikes gave more wounds and more shots, and thus more bang for your buck with little reason to take Paladins. The meta has changed drastically since then. AP3 and ignores cover have become incredibly common, the Heldrake in particular turned the meta on its face. Paladins now finally have a place in lists again, as they are immune to the worst of the Heldrake's crap, and don't worry about cover like everyone else does thanks to invulnerables. The big change to S6-7 SPAM also means they worry about Instant Death a lot less, though it is admittedly still a concern. The Strikes still give more firepower and wounds, the problem is they are much, much easier to take away nowadays than they were before, giving Paladins a role once again.
GKs are in an odd posisiton, that a lot of the stuff that is helping to give PA a bad time is also AP2. CSM, Eldar, and Tau have pushed GKs out of the competitive scene. I used to love spamming PA for my GKs, now with all the AP3/2/1 ignore cover or not, it's rough paying 20pts at least per model just to get blanked off the board.
At least we aren't blood angels... yet... give it a few more dexes with key ap3 or better weapons and we'll see haha
I wouldn't say we were hit that hard. We are certainly still near the top, just it isn't as basic as it was before. Also, we are still better than CSM overall; the Heldrake is the only bent thing there.
As for Terminators Super Newb, I'd say regular Termies are still too expensive compared to other options. Paladins get a place because they bring multiple wounds and a vast array of weaponry among other things.
GM, I guess my lack of game-experience leaves a giant gap in my knowledge, because I don't know how to make a good list with Paladins in it. What do people typically do? Driago or no Draigo?
Super Newb wrote: GM, I guess my lack of game-experience leaves a giant gap in my knowledge, because I don't know how to make a good list with Paladins in it. What do people typically do? Driago or no Draigo?
I'd never take Paladins without Draigo. I used to run Draigowing in early 6th when they were all characters but stopped after the FAQ nerfed them. I'm trying to build a list with them now though, though I am finding building any Grey Knight lists more difficult. I won't get to try it out for awhile yet, but the list right now has Draigo, 5 Paladins, 2 Soladins, a Raven, 2 Dreadknights, a CCS, a Guard blob, and a Vendetta.
Super Newb wrote: GM, I guess my lack of game-experience leaves a giant gap in my knowledge, because I don't know how to make a good list with Paladins in it. What do people typically do? Driago or no Draigo?
I'd never take Paladins without Draigo. I used to run Draigowing in early 6th when they were all characters but stopped after the FAQ nerfed them. I'm trying to build a list with them now though, though I am finding building any Grey Knight lists more difficult. I won't get to try it out for awhile yet, but the list right now has Draigo, 5 Paladins, 2 Soladins, a Raven, 2 Dreadknights, a CCS, a Guard blob, and a Vendetta.
That isn't a bad set up. But GKs really need to lean on the crutch of allies now and probably until they get their offical 6th book.
Yeah that's the big change I noticed. I have never used allies before with my GK and used to come in the top 5 of tournies consistently, but now when I build my usual sort of list I have confidence in it and so feel I need allies. And I know the default response these days seem to be 'take Tau', but GK + Tau feels wrong to me.
Haha, Tau, Eldar, IG, and crons are all solid choices for GKs. I still run them solo but I never take them to tournies anymore. The last few months I've been favoring CSM with daemon allies or visa versa. Doing well in my local tournies as well.
If I don't need the best/strongest list ever and stick to ONLY GK (no allies) what kind of list would that be? I feel like it would have to include Coteaz and some henchmen, just to keep costs down...
I like Coteaz, 2 dreadknights, a storm raven with 3 warrior acolytes with 3 melta guns inside. aegis line, 3 plasma cannon servos with warrior acolyte meat shields. Coteaz goes with this group and behind the line. After that I spam psybacks with 5 warrior acolytes toting 3x plasma guns.
Im thinking that 3 dreadknights is almost mandatory now, Ive run pure gk builds for all my tournies this year but slowly my placings have dropped as tau and now eldar got introduced.
Im thinking either tau, eldar, crons or guard as allies has to be in there, as much as I hate to do, I agree it just doesn't feel right.My brother has an old eldar army, so Im probably going to go down that route, gk/eldar seems to have the possibility to be a strong build I reckon.
Hey people!! As Super Newb suggested I like to build a 2k army based only from our codex . That's the list so far :
Hq:
Coteaz 100
Elites:
Techmarine w/ power axe + rad grenades 100
Vindicare Assassin 145
Troops:
1st Henchmen Unit: 3x plasma cannon servitors + 2x Jokaero + 4x crusaders 190 (they go with Coteaz in a bolstered ruin)
2nd Henchmen Unit: 7x death cult assassins w/ power sword + power axe + 4x crusaders 165 (they go with Techmarine into the redeemer)
Fast Atk:
10x Interceptors w/ 2x psycannons + 8x swords + psy ammo 300
Heavy Support:
2x Dreadknights w/ heavy Incinerator + teleporter 470
1x Redeemer w/ psy ammo 250
So what would you include in the above list for the remaining 280 points?? I know I don't have AA so it's an Aegis line or a stormraven I suppose (only problem of the aegis line is that it can't be bolstered by techmarine ...I think ) On the other hand in my local meta there are little flyers so is it better option to spam las razorbacks with 3x acolytes??
Spectral wrote:Hey people!! As Super Newb suggested I like to build a 2k army based only from our codex . That's the list so far :
Hq:
Coteaz 100
Elites:
Techmarine w/ power axe + rad grenades 100
Vindicare Assassin 145
Troops:
1st Henchmen Unit: 3x plasma cannon servitors + 2x Jokaero + 4x crusaders 190 (they go with Coteaz in a bolstered ruin)
2nd Henchmen Unit: 7x death cult assassins w/ power sword + power axe + 4x crusaders 165 (they go with Techmarine into the redeemer)
Fast Atk:
10x Interceptors w/ 2x psycannons + 8x swords + psy ammo 300
Heavy Support:
2x Dreadknights w/ heavy Incinerator + teleporter 470
1x Redeemer w/ psy ammo 250
So what would you include in the above list for the remaining 280 points?? I know I don't have AA so it's an Aegis line or a stormraven I suppose (only problem of the aegis line is that it can't be bolstered by techmarine ...I think ) On the other hand in my local meta there are little flyers so is it better option to spam las razorbacks with 3x acolytes??
Thanks in advance!!
I know the vindicare seems awesome, and he is. But I dont think is really worth it tbh, to easy to kill in a meta with so much ignores cover ap3 and S6. Also dont like the idea of a single raider, having a single tank will attract all the fire and not last to long, if the idea is around the mini death star in the raider, then maybe drop a knight for another one and give the list more focus. Either knights or raiders, not both.
Marthike wrote:I would like to make a TACGK list without allies, I know its not as good but I would prefer it if its GK only.
I modified jy2's list but I am not sure if this is any good.
I think Purifiers are actually dead in the new meta. MEQ dies so fast now, even more than before, that the extra points you are spending are more often than not going to be wasted. Fearless IMO isn't such a big deal unless you are scoring, so you are really paying for Cleansing Flame, which they'll never survive long enough to use, and an extra Psycannon, which will probably only see a few turns of shooting.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: I think Purifiers are actually dead in the new meta. MEQ dies so fast now, even more than before, that the extra points you are spending are more often than not going to be wasted. Fearless IMO isn't such a big deal unless you are scoring, so you are really paying for Cleansing Flame, which they'll never survive long enough to use, and an extra Psycannon, which will probably only see a few turns of shooting.
IMO stick with regular Strikes.
But strike squads won't do much other than sit inside the psyback and do nothing. I could swap them for interceptors but for 300 pts for 10 with 2 psycannon and psybolt.
I feel that at least Purifers provide good shooting and counter Assualt. Also if someone focus them my troops and other things survive for longer. Yes it's not gonna compete with wraithnecrons, serpent spam, gun line tau. However, it's pretty good with 3 dread knight, a bunch of guns and some Purifers to protect my troops.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: I think Purifiers are actually dead in the new meta. MEQ dies so fast now, even more than before, that the extra points you are spending are more often than not going to be wasted. Fearless IMO isn't such a big deal unless you are scoring, so you are really paying for Cleansing Flame, which they'll never survive long enough to use, and an extra Psycannon, which will probably only see a few turns of shooting.
IMO stick with regular Strikes.
But strike squads won't do much other than sit inside the psyback and do nothing. I could swap them for interceptors but for 300 pts for 10 with 2 psycannon and psybolt.
I feel that at least Purifers provide good shooting and counter Assualt. Also if someone focus them my troops and other things survive for longer. Yes it's not gonna compete with wraithnecrons, serpent spam, gun line tau. However, it's pretty good with 3 dread knight, a bunch of guns and some Purifers to protect my troops.
Why are Strikes going to sit inside a Psyback and do nothing? That is only the case if you choose the take that path, so that's not much of an argument to be fair.
As far as shooting goes, Purifiers only get one Psycannon more than Strikes per 5 men, but Strikes get more men, so their shooting potential against most opponents isn't that significantly greater. As for counter-assault, (a) it's not necessary in 6th edition and a lot of the top lists out there don't carry any, and (b) most things in the GK army including Strikes are decent enough at counter-assault, Purifiers just ramp it up for full on assault, which again is not a route GK should be pursuing.
I'm also not sure how you think admitting you cannot compete any of the top builds is supposed to convince me, genuinely. How does that argument help you? I also don't get why you think you need Purifiers in a list with 3 Dreadknights.
The problem is as well you are looking at the situation purely from an offensive stand point. But that's just not enough. 6th is s killy that if you can't stay on the board you are going to lose. Strikes and Purifiers die just the same. This was never a problem before because (a) MEQs weren't hard to kill but not easy either, and (b) Purifiers brought anti-horde which was golden in the meta of mass infantry. However the Heldrake and to an extent Tau changed that. AP3 and ignores cover is everywhere, making MEQs fold like wet paper, and with the Drake flying around there is less and less infantry hordes in competitive lists nowadays. And even then when Purifiers were useful, you still didn't SPAM them as the Dreadknight partly did their jobs for them; you usually just took the one squad to multi-charge and flame some hordes.
What all this amounts to is paying extra points for Purifiers that die just as quick, have less bodies to soak up that death, and have less of a role to fill in the game. I think it will take another meta change to bring Purifiers back to the forefront again.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: I think Purifiers are actually dead in the new meta. MEQ dies so fast now, even more than before, that the extra points you are spending are more often than not going to be wasted. Fearless IMO isn't such a big deal unless you are scoring, so you are really paying for Cleansing Flame, which they'll never survive long enough to use, and an extra Psycannon, which will probably only see a few turns of shooting.
IMO stick with regular Strikes.
But strike squads won't do much other than sit inside the psyback and do nothing. I could swap them for interceptors but for 300 pts for 10 with 2 psycannon and psybolt.
I feel that at least Purifers provide good shooting and counter Assualt. Also if someone focus them my troops and other things survive for longer. Yes it's not gonna compete with wraithnecrons, serpent spam, gun line tau. However, it's pretty good with 3 dread knight, a bunch of guns and some Purifers to protect my troops.
Why are Strikes going to sit inside a Psyback and do nothing? That is only the case if you choose the take that path, so that's not much of an argument to be fair.
As far as shooting goes, Purifiers only get one Psycannon more than Strikes per 5 men, but Strikes get more men, so their shooting potential against most opponents isn't that significantly greater. As for counter-assault, (a) it's not necessary in 6th edition and a lot of the top lists out there don't carry any, and (b) most things in the GK army including Strikes are decent enough at counter-assault, Purifiers just ramp it up for full on assault, which again is not a route GK should be pursuing.
I'm also not sure how you think admitting you cannot compete any of the top builds is supposed to convince me, genuinely. How does that argument help you? I also don't get why you think you need Purifiers in a list with 3 Dreadknights.
The problem is as well you are looking at the situation purely from an offensive stand point. But that's just not enough. 6th is s killy that if you can't stay on the board you are going to lose. Strikes and Purifiers die just the same. This was never a problem before because (a) MEQs weren't hard to kill but not easy either, and (b) Purifiers brought anti-horde which was golden in the meta of mass infantry. However the Heldrake and to an extent Tau changed that. AP3 and ignores cover is everywhere, making MEQs fold like wet paper, and with the Drake flying around there is less and less infantry hordes in competitive lists nowadays. And even then when Purifiers were useful, you still didn't SPAM them as the Dreadknight partly did their jobs for them; you usually just took the one squad to multi-charge and flame some hordes.
What all this amounts to is paying extra points for Purifiers that die just as quick, have less bodies to soak up that death, and have less of a role to fill in the game. I think it will take another meta change to bring Purifiers back to the forefront again.
What's wrong with purifiers with dread knight, also you keep saying strikes are better what would you suggest I do?
Run 30 strike squads on foot? Since to get 2 psycannon inside a rhino it's cheaper to use Purifers.
Convince you what? All I said was that GK can't compete with the big guys without allies since they are just too expensive and you did not give me a convincing reason, even if I take strikes Gk still can't take compete with necrons etc.
Your telling me to use venerable psydread instead? All you said is how Gk is bad and die easily but gives me no advice on what to pick other than strikes, so I will just use a bunch of strike squads and buy some psyback to back them up?
The Purifers for take up a lot of my points so obviously if I need to change them I can probably make a lot of space for new stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ps when purifers were useful they were spammed, 6 units because of their shooting (mostly) Close combat (less).
This is a list that doesn't include Purifers, but I feel, ven-dreads are too expensive.
Marthike wrote: What's wrong with purifiers with dread knight, also you keep saying strikes are better what would you suggest I do?
Run 30 strike squads on foot? Since to get 2 psycannon inside a rhino it's cheaper to use Purifers.
If there are 3 Dreadknights on the board then hordes are toast. Purifiers' main role is anti-horde. So when a better overall unit already has their role filled, there is no reason to take them. That is competitive list building 101.
As for what to do, depends on the list. But Purifier SPAM has been dead since 6th arrived, and the change in meta has only made it worse for MEQs.
Why do you need to get 2 Psycannons in a Rhino? 5 non-scoring MEQs in a Rhino is not a very good choice in the current meta where both are very easy to kill, and when they aren't adding anything that the list doesn't already have, so why bother?
Marthike wrote: Convince you what? All I said was that GK can't compete with the big guys without allies since they are just too expensive and you did not give me a convincing reason, even if I take strikes Gk still can't take compete with necrons etc.
You were trying to convince me that Purifiers are good. How could you already have forgotten that?
You also never said GK without allies can't compete with those 3 armies, go read your post again and you'll find that's not at all what you typed. You said the set-up of Purifiers and 3 Dreadknights can't compete with them.
Marthike wrote: Your telling me to use venerable psydread instead? All you said is how Gk is bad and die easily but gives me no advice on what to pick other than strikes, so I will just use a bunch of strike squads and buy some psyback to back them up?
What? Where did I say anything about Venerable Psydreads? Seriously man, what's with all the random tangents you are throwing out? No wonder you are finding it hard to follow the conversation.
Also where did I say GKs are bad?
The fact that you are choosing to ignore half of what I said is your problem, not mine. I didn't suggest what to do with Strikes because that is not the topic we are discussing, the discussion was about how Purifiers aren't worth it any more and about how you disagree with that. I used Strikes as a comparative MEQ alternative to comparison with. This doesn't automatically imply that you should put Strikes in your particular list either though.
Marthike wrote: ps when purifers were useful they were spammed, 6 units because of their shooting (mostly) Close combat (less).
No, in 5th edition they were spammed. In early 6th they were still useful, but bodies were more important, so they were still taken but not spammed; usually just one squad to have Cleansing Flame around.
Assume less and read more. Your total response is rife with assumptions based on things I never even mentioned and you forgot at one point what we were talking about. You also have put alot of words in my mouth, and I really don't get half of your post.
As for your list, you obviously want to talk about it, so let's talk about it.
The Purifiers I have covered. Don't know why you would want to change them to Venerable Dreads either, one of the definitions of wasted points in this edition.
Henchmen are fine, but not the way you have them set-up. Pretty much what happens to your current set-up is tank blows up, half of your tiny squads die, and the rest either get mopped up or flee the board. Troops need to be so much sturdier in the current 6th ed meta. Make the squads bigger, maybe throw in some Crusaders here and there to make sure Drakes etc don't mop up whole squads. the key to remember is if Henchmen are you sole Troops then you need to build the list around them to make sure they can last and win. I think maybe some Terminators or Paladins might complement your list surprisingly well, but as I said earlier, I'm still working on getting my own pure GK list to work, so I can't say for sure. What I do know though is that I won't be taking Purifiers.
Marthike wrote: What's wrong with purifiers with dread knight, also you keep saying strikes are better what would you suggest I do?
Run 30 strike squads on foot? Since to get 2 psycannon inside a rhino it's cheaper to use Purifers.
If there are 3 Dreadknights on the board then hordes are toast. Purifiers' main role is anti-horde. So when a better overall unit already has their role filled, there is no reason to take them. That is competitive list building 101.
As for what to do, depends on the list. But Purifier SPAM has been dead since 6th arrived, and the change in meta has only made it worse for MEQs.
Why do you need to get 2 Psycannons in a Rhino? 5 non-scoring MEQs in a Rhino is not a very good choice in the current meta where both are very easy to kill, and when they aren't adding anything that the list doesn't already have, so why bother?
Marthike wrote: Convince you what? All I said was that GK can't compete with the big guys without allies since they are just too expensive and you did not give me a convincing reason, even if I take strikes Gk still can't take compete with necrons etc.
You were trying to convince me that Purifiers are good. How could you already have forgotten that?
You also never said GK without allies can't compete with those 3 armies, go read your post again and you'll find that's not at all what you typed. You said the set-up of Purifiers and 3 Dreadknights can't compete with them.
Marthike wrote: Your telling me to use venerable psydread instead? All you said is how Gk is bad and die easily but gives me no advice on what to pick other than strikes, so I will just use a bunch of strike squads and buy some psyback to back them up?
What? Where did I say anything about Venerable Psydreads? Seriously man, what's with all the random tangents you are throwing out? No wonder you are finding it hard to follow the conversation.
Also where did I say GKs are bad?
The fact that you are choosing to ignore half of what I said is your problem, not mine. I didn't suggest what to do with Strikes because that is not the topic we are discussing, the discussion was about how Purifiers aren't worth it any more and about how you disagree with that. I used Strikes as a comparative MEQ alternative to comparison with. This doesn't automatically imply that you should put Strikes in your particular list either though.
Marthike wrote: ps when purifers were useful they were spammed, 6 units because of their shooting (mostly) Close combat (less).
No, in 5th edition they were spammed. In early 6th they were still useful, but bodies were more important, so they were still taken but not spammed; usually just one squad to have Cleansing Flame around.
Assume less and read more. Your total response is rife with assumptions based on things I never even mentioned and you forgot at one point what we were talking about. You also have put alot of words in my mouth, and I really don't get half of your post.
As for your list, you obviously want to talk about it, so let's talk about it.
The Purifiers I have covered. Don't know why you would want to change them to Venerable Dreads either, one of the definitions of wasted points in this edition.
Henchmen are fine, but not the way you have them set-up. Pretty much what happens to your current set-up is tank blows up, half of your tiny squads die, and the rest either get mopped up or flee the board. Troops need to be so much sturdier in the current 6th ed meta. Make the squads bigger, maybe throw in some Crusaders here and there to make sure Drakes etc don't mop up whole squads. the key to remember is if Henchmen are you sole Troops then you need to build the list around them to make sure they can last and win. I think maybe some Terminators or Paladins might complement your list surprisingly well, but as I said earlier, I'm still working on getting my own pure GK list to work, so I can't say for sure. What I do know though is that I won't be taking Purifiers.
To be very honest, I never said purifers were good, they were the only things left compared to all the others things in the codex. I know MEQ is bad when they are that expensive but thats all GK have, I can't do anything but to use them, which is why i choose acolytes.
I choose 2 psycannon because they are the best gun the GK has, the more the better and i don't think that has changed at all in 6th ed.
Purifiers are good, their extra gun easily makes up for their points, compared to strikes and interceptors they all are pretty much the same, I admit that a foot army of strikes provide alot more bodies but like you said they dont work because of all the ap3 and helldrake so thats why I want a rhino to at least give them maybe a little more survivability.
I was trying to talk about my GK list being not competitive.
All you said was this and that is bad, so obviously that implies somethings else must be better so whats left are ven-dreads, dreads (can't use because i have dreadknights), stormraven (which i forgot when I posted my new list), interceptors, paladins (but I chosen to go with coteaz).
It would be helpful if you can tell me whats good or whats bad because i know everything you said, i know they are not worth their points i know they die easy, I know i should take more bodies (but I feel strikes die just as quick and also not worth the points so i chosen henchmen). I posted my list is because i want to talk about it, if I want to know about purifers i will ask if they are still good, which i have done few days ago.
Your logic and my logic is very different, how you think is defiantly not how i think so I will just stick to my new list and talk about stormravens:
3 henchmen units will start the game in the storm ravens and the other 2 will go in reserve or in psybacks depends on what i am facing. If the stromravens can survive to turn 5 I can drop off my troops and capture objectives. Stormraven will give my troops the protection they need for them to survive till the end while the rest does the killing. Maybe i should get rid of 1 stormraven and buff the other stormravens and the henchmen squads.
I'd stick with the purifiers. Sure purifiers are easier to kill nowadays due to heldrakes. However, dreads are even that much easier to kill due to the prevalence of S7-spam. Also, purifiers takes much more firepower to kill. First of all, you need to kill the transport. Then you need to kill the fearless guys inside.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Godless-Mimicry wrote: If there are 3 Dreadknights on the board then hordes are toast. Purifiers' main role is anti-horde. So when a better overall unit already has their role filled, there is no reason to take them. That is competitive list building 101.
Purifiers are an every-man unit. They can be used to kill tanks, horde and other MEQ's. Don't discount them. If they get close, Cleansing Flame is a threat to hordes, force weapons a threat to normal MEQ's and psycannons/hammer a threat to mech. Their flexibility is what makes them so good. And now that they aren't scoring (at least not in these list), you can totally use them as sacrificial units.
As for what to do, depends on the list. But Purifier SPAM has been dead since 6th arrived, and the change in meta has only made it worse for MEQs.
Why do you need to get 2 Psycannons in a Rhino? 5 non-scoring MEQs in a Rhino is not a very good choice in the current meta where both are very easy to kill, and when they aren't adding anything that the list doesn't already have, so why bother?
This isn't a purifier-spam army. Without them being scoring, you can now play them much more aggressively. I'd rather my opponent spend the resources to kill off my purifiers than to take out the mobility of my scoring units (and the scoring units themselves).
The list works because you've got high-priority threats - purifiers and dreadknights - who are also non-essential sacrificial units. So while you are busy killing them, henchmen in psybacks are taking objectives.
In essence, this is my MTO strategy and Positional Dominance philosophy. I throw a bunch of high-priority, non-essential threats at you to keep you pre-occupied and then win on objectives. You can basically substitute the purifiers/dreadknights in the list with my flyrants+Doom in my tyranid list or the wraiths in my necron list.
Do you not find that 15 T3 5+AS scoring bodies die too much Jim?
I understand what you are saying, but I still think there are much better options in the Codex to fill those roles. I'd rather have 3 more threats for your MTO strategy that also don't clash role wise with the Dreadknight, who is also an every man's unit. As to what in particular, I have yet to find out as I'm still working on some lists, but I'm sure there are much better answer out there than Purifiers, mostly because the Grey Knight book is saturated with threat units.
It takes resources to kill them. First you need to kill the rhino. Then the guys inside. Now try doing that when you've also got 3 dreadknights and 2 other units of purifiers heading your way.
Purifiers can also survive if you spread them out. However, what usually happens is the rhino is wrecked and then you can hide them behind the rhino where the opponent will not have LOS to them.
Also, I view all my non-scoring units as non-essential. That means they are a sacrificial unit. Any firepower you divert to them means less shots at my scoring units. I don't mind the trade-off since I have a lot of "non-essential" threats.
jy2 wrote: It takes resources to kill them. First you need to kill the rhino. Then the guys inside. Now try doing that when you've also got 3 dreadknights and 2 other units of purifiers heading your way.
Purifiers can also survive if you spread them out. However, what usually happens is the rhino is wrecked and then you can hide them behind the rhino where the opponent will not have LOS to them.
Also, I view all my non-scoring units as non-essential. That means they are a sacrificial unit. Any firepower you divert to them means less shots at my scoring units. I don't mind the trade-off since I have a lot of "non-essential" threats.
Maybe it's a difference of meta that causes a different outcome across the pond, but in my experiences Rhinos blow up more than they die to Hull Points. So those Purifiers have nowhere to hide, and half of those T3 5+AS infantry die in the blast. Sure even at a recent enough tournament one of our ETC players tried out a list almost identical to yours and ended suffering a heavy loss to a 12yr old who only played casually, despite the massive experience gap, because the kid just shot the transports and blew them up killing the guys, and then went to ground on his own objective.
Obviously anecdotal evidence counts for little, but it does demonstrate how fickle such a list can be. I prefer building a list so fate is never taken out of my hands.
And then when you put an experienced player against that, I would imagine that they wouldn't be overly fooled by all the threats and would know that taking out those Troops means he definitely can't lose. It's not that I think the whole MTO idea won't work, in fact I think it's a great idea, but I just think relying solely on that to keep 15 Henchmen alive seems a little too risky.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: I understand what you are saying, but I still think there are much better options in the Codex to fill those roles. I'd rather have 3 more threats for your MTO strategy that also don't clash role wise with the Dreadknight, who is also an every man's unit. As to what in particular, I have yet to find out as I'm still working on some lists, but I'm sure there are much better answer out there than Purifiers, mostly because the Grey Knight book is saturated with threat units.
I like psyfleman dreads, but they just die too easily nowadays. The trend currently in competitive play is S6/7 spam - necron teslas, mechdar, tau missile-spam, etc. Dreads die just too easily, much more easily than 5-man units in a box. The "venerable" part is practically useless since its mainly glances that kill them. I have not had a dread survive in any of my GK games so far.
Strikers are troops and so take up slots for henchmen-spam (or as you call them, Imperial weaklings ). However, the fact that they are scoring poses a double-whammy. You can't be as aggressive playing them and now, there is more incentive to kill them whereas with purifiers, your opponent needs to make a decision - should I kill a threat or should I go after the troops instead?
Terminators/paladins are just too expensive and would require a redesign on this entire list.
To me, other than to go for allies, purifiers still make a lot of sense. They can do everything well enough and now that they aren't scoring, a burden has been lifted. Now you can play them without fear of losing your scoring units.
Maybe it's a difference of meta that causes a different outcome across the pond, but in my experiences Rhinos blow up more than they die to Hull Points. So those Purifiers have nowhere to hide, and half of those T3 5+AS infantry die in the blast. Sure even at a recent enough tournament one of our ETC players tried out a list almost identical to yours and ended suffering a heavy loss to a 12yr old who only played casually, despite the massive experience gap, because the kid just shot the transports and blew them up killing the guys, and then went to ground on his own objective.
Obviously anecdotal evidence counts for little, but it does demonstrate how fickle such a list can be. I prefer building a list so fate is never taken out of my hands.
And then when you put an experienced player against that, I would imagine that they wouldn't be overly fooled by all the threats and would know that taking out those Troops means he definitely can't lose. It's not that I think the whole MTO idea won't work, in fact I think it's a great idea, but I just think relying solely on that to keep 15 Henchmen alive seems a little too risky.
Sounds like the kid got kind of lucky. That happens sometimes. You can be much more experienced and have a much better list, but sometimes, it just isn't meant to be (your game, that is). Explosions do happen on occassion and depending on the army (i.e. if the opponent was spamming lascannons/meltas or just normal S6-8 shooting), however, with the current trend (and of course, depending on your local meta), I'm seeing wrecks are more common.
As for henchmen troops, you either like it or you don't. This type of list isn't the only competitive pure GK list. However, it is one of them. And the trick to make them stay alive is to run GK's MTO-style. Throw a bunch of other higher-priority GK threats so that your opponent doesn't really have the resources to go after your troops.
Of course, GK on the whole isn't as competitive as it used to be. This type of list is still susceptible to the stronger necron/tau/eldar top tournament builds.
BTW, if my opponent goes after my troops, that's fine by me. They are giving my offensive units more time to kill their army. It's like my wraithwing necron list. Fire at my wraiths and I will eventually win on objectives. Try to take down my flyers and my wraiths will get into combat and kill your units. Make no mistake, the dreadknights and purifiers are a real threat to your army. Ignore them at your own peril. It's a catch-22 situation.
3 henchmen units will start the game in the storm ravens and the other 2 will go in reserve or in psybacks depends on what i am facing. If the stromravens can survive to turn 5 I can drop off my troops and capture objectives. Stormraven will give my troops the protection they need for them to survive till the end while the rest does the killing. Maybe i should get rid of 1 stormraven and buff the other stormravens and the henchmen squads.
Not a big fan of this list. A lot of armies don't have the tools to deal with stormravens and so will just ignore them, thus focusing on the rest of the army. You've just made target priority much easier for them. And while GK ravens are good against psykers, the're not going to do much against an army with a lot of bodies. I'm not just talking about hordes, but normal foot lists as well. What this list will excel at is in dealing the tanks and more elitist armies.
Also, you can use movement of your army to limit their (the stormraven's) movements.
IMO, too many ravens unbalances your list. I wouldn't go with more than 2 ravens. Instead, IMO you need more boots on the ground.
jy2 wrote: I like psyfleman dreads, but they just die too easily nowadays. The trend currently in competitive play is S6/7 spam - necron teslas, mechdar, tau missile-spam, etc. Dreads die just too easily, much more easily than 5-man units in a box. The "venerable" part is practically useless since its mainly glances that kill them. I have not had a dread survive in any of my GK games so far.
I agree 100%. There seems to be some confusion here though, I have never once advocated Dreads of any kind. Marthike for some reason randomly started talking about them as if I had suggested them to him and then put them in his list, but I had never even mentioned them at all, so that might have caused some confusion, but I never would suggest them, and especially not Venerables.
jy2 wrote: Strikers are troops and so take up slots for henchmen-spam (or as you call them, Imperial weaklings ). However, the fact that they are scoring poses a double-whammy. You can't be as aggressive playing them and now, there is more incentive to kill them whereas with purifiers, your opponent needs to make a decision - should I kill a threat or should I go after the troops instead?
I have to admit, that's actually a good argument for Purifiers over Strikes that I hadn't thought of.
jy2 wrote: Explosions do happen on occassion and depending on the army (i.e. if the opponent was spamming lascannons/meltas or just normal S6-8 shooting), however, with the current trend (and of course, depending on your local meta), I'm seeing wrecks are more common.
Yeah definitely must be a meta thing 'cause over here we see explosions more often than wrecks. Just goes to show none of us know it all though right
jy2 wrote: As for henchmen troops, you either like it or you don't. This type of list isn't the only competitive pure GK list. However, it is one of them. And the trick to make them stay alive is to run GK's MTO-style. Throw a bunch of other higher-priority GK threats so that your opponent doesn't really have the resources to go after your troops.
I like Henchmen, though I am a bit loathe to take them over Guard allies these days. If I did though I would take bigger squads. Don't get me wrong with what I said earlier; it's the fact there are so little Henchmen in that list that makes me uneasy, not the fact that they are Henchmen.
jy2 wrote: BTW, if my opponent goes after my troops, that's fine by me. They are giving my offensive units more time to kill their army. It's like my wraithwing necron list. Fire at my wraiths and I will eventually win on objectives. Try to take down my flyers and my wraiths will get into combat and kill your units. Make no mistake, the dreadknights and purifiers are a real threat to your army. Ignore them at your own peril. It's a catch-22 situation.
While I get where you are at, the issue I had with the list above was that unlike your Crons and Nids, it wouldn't take that much of an investment to deal with 15 Henchmen in 5 AV11 vehicles, not in this meta. I reckon you could probably do it piecemeal while still focusing a lot of fire into the Knights. This is all theory of course, but it just seems to me that MTO works better if the Troops are a bit more resilient so as to allow the threat units enough time to be sure that they can wipe out the enemy army, because if you lose your Troops the enemy only needs to keep one of his alive to win the game.
BTW regarding the Raven list which I had liked more than the other two previously, I never thought of how the Ravens being so hard could be a downside to the list. Very good point and something I never would have thought of. Just goes to show there's always more to learn.
Next year I'm planning to be in the San Diego area for Comic Con, so I'll have to swing down to Frontline Gaming's neck of the woods and we'll have to back track the meta just a bit to test this all out Jim
jy2 wrote: I like psyfleman dreads, but they just die too easily nowadays. The trend currently in competitive play is S6/7 spam - necron teslas, mechdar, tau missile-spam, etc. Dreads die just too easily, much more easily than 5-man units in a box. The "venerable" part is practically useless since its mainly glances that kill them. I have not had a dread survive in any of my GK games so far.
I agree 100%. There seems to be some confusion here though, I have never once advocated Dreads of any kind. Marthike for some reason randomly started talking about them as if I had suggested them to him and then put them in his list, but I had never even mentioned them at all, so that might have caused some confusion, but I never would suggest them, and especially not Venerables.
I was mainly cycling through a list of potential substitutes for the purifiers, based mainly off of Marthike's list that he posted. It is by no means an extensive list. I apologize if I implied that you were an advocate of such a potential replacement.
jy2 wrote: Explosions do happen on occassion and depending on the army (i.e. if the opponent was spamming lascannons/meltas or just normal S6-8 shooting), however, with the current trend (and of course, depending on your local meta), I'm seeing wrecks are more common.
Yeah definitely must be a meta thing 'cause over here we see explosions more often than wrecks. Just goes to show none of us know it all though right
Yeah, this is definitely meta-dependent. In areas where people are still running lots of AP1/2 AT, explosions are more likely. My perspective is from the overall US competitive tournament scene. Here, the competitive meta is more dominated by S6/7 non-AP 1/2 shooting - grey knight psycannon/psybolt-spam, necron tesla-spam, eldar mechdar/spiders/war walkers, tau missile-spam, daemon Tzeentch herald shooting, marine autocannon/missile launchers, etc. Different strokes for different folks.
jy2 wrote: As for henchmen troops, you either like it or you don't. This type of list isn't the only competitive pure GK list. However, it is one of them. And the trick to make them stay alive is to run GK's MTO-style. Throw a bunch of other higher-priority GK threats so that your opponent doesn't really have the resources to go after your troops.
I like Henchmen, though I am a bit loathe to take them over Guard allies these days. If I did though I would take bigger squads. Don't get me wrong with what I said earlier; it's the fact there are so little Henchmen in that list that makes me uneasy, not the fact that they are Henchmen.
jy2 wrote: BTW, if my opponent goes after my troops, that's fine by me. They are giving my offensive units more time to kill their army. It's like my wraithwing necron list. Fire at my wraiths and I will eventually win on objectives. Try to take down my flyers and my wraiths will get into combat and kill your units. Make no mistake, the dreadknights and purifiers are a real threat to your army. Ignore them at your own peril. It's a catch-22 situation.
While I get where you are at, the issue I had with the list above was that unlike your Crons and Nids, it wouldn't take that much of an investment to deal with 15 Henchmen in 5 AV11 vehicles, not in this meta. I reckon you could probably do it piecemeal while still focusing a lot of fire into the Knights. This is all theory of course, but it just seems to me that MTO works better if the Troops are a bit more resilient so as to allow the threat units enough time to be sure that they can wipe out the enemy army, because if you lose your Troops the enemy only needs to keep one of his alive to win the game.
BTW regarding the Raven list which I had liked more than the other two previously, I never thought of how the Ravens being so hard could be a downside to the list. Very good point and something I never would have thought of. Just goes to show there's always more to learn.
No worries. It's just an inherent downside if you want to go MTO-GK style without allies. Necrons have troops in flyers. Tyranids have momma bugs who poop out baby bugs. Eldar have jetbikes and troops in wave serpents. What do the Imperials have? Just units in rhinos. That's it. No wonder they are losing the battle against the xenos. MEQ armies will always have this weakness short of running paladins. You either take the more expensive strikers who are somewhat expensive (compared to other 5-man MSU troops in other codices) or you take the cheap henchmen. Neither are as good as their xenos counterparts, but short of taking allies, we will always have this problem with our troops. Now if they are going to kill my troops, I'd rather they kill only 62-pts of my army that don't really contribute much to my offense rather than 150-pts that also don't really contribute much to my offense.
Of course there is nothing wrong with taking 5-10-man henchmen units.
Next year I'm planning to be in the San Diego area for Comic Con, so I'll have to swing down to Frontline Gaming's neck of the woods and we'll have to back track the meta just a bit to test this all out Jim
Cool. If you're in our neck of the woods (northen California), just give me a PM and I'll show you around. We can visit Reece & the gang at Frontline. You're going to be busy though. There's definitely a lot to check out, both up here in NorCal and down south in SoCal if you're interested in sight-seeing.
jy2 wrote: Yeah, this is definitely meta-dependent. In areas where people are still running lots of AP1/2 AT, explosions are more likely. My perspective is from the overall US competitive tournament scene. Here, the competitive meta is more dominated by S6/7 non-AP 1/2 shooting - grey knight psycannon/psybolt-spam, necron tesla-spam, eldar mechdar/spiders/war walkers, tau missile-spam, daemon Tzeentch herald shooting, marine autocannon/missile launchers, etc. Different strokes for different folks.
Well it's the same stuff here, just you have in such concentrated quantities that you usually are rolling up multiple pens, and also the amount of Melta in our meta never subsided too much.
Not gonna quote every thing but you sure know your stuff jy2
From what you said, purifers are definatly good enough to be included in a list (I would like to build that GK list because i used to have purifer spam and already have 2 dreadknights so it ill be easy for me to just use those models)
About the storm raven, do you think 1 storm raven can work?
switch 1 unit of purifers with a strom raven? I dont own any strom raven not sure if its worth it, I feel its not gonna give me that much of a advantage to justify it, it will keep 1 of my troops safe, and provide anti air fire power, which i am lacking a bit.
The prolem most army will have atleast 1 anti air gun (agies quad) or 1-2 that can be used for anti air. I just dont know if it will draw enough fire away from my other units and if someone has some dedicated anti air and I have 1 storm raven that gives him a easy target.
The more I talk about it the more i dont think it will work.
Coteaz roll on divination so I will try to give some of my units rerolls to hit. I guess he has to be inside one of the rhinos.
Now I also want to make a paladin list because i also own a paladin army and dont want them to go to waste and not be used.
I say your list jy2 (the one before greyzilla, really like it), i like to keep my list pure GK, atleast i want to try and if it doesn't work out well i will jump to allies.
Still got 35 points left which i might give the dreadknight a sword and MC a few psycannons. This is actully just the old deathstar thing that is nothing new i think.
That list has no fire support but i guess thats how paladins work, Deep strike and kill as much as they can. 2 threats and a mega threat. Also you have said that dreads are not viable in the age of S6/S7 spam I will leave them at home then.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: Yeah I agree, problem is I don't like Henchmen that much, as IG do their job better.
id disagree, bolter henchmen at 5 pts, with ld 8,while guardsmen only have a sgt with ld8 and lasguns.
If your job is to stand back and do nothing, or get guard allies in, guards men are ok. But henchmen with bolters are a pretty strong troops choice for the pts
Godless-Mimicry wrote: Yeah I agree, problem is I don't like Henchmen that much, as IG do their job better.
id disagree, bolter henchmen at 5 pts, with ld 8,while guardsmen only have a sgt with ld8 and lasguns.
If your job is to stand back and do nothing, or get guard allies in, guards men are ok. But henchmen with bolters are a pretty strong troops choice for the pts
They're not though. They are too flimsy to really take the fight to anyone and have no surefire way to mitigate it. The reason Henchmen are being taken in lists is to have scoring units, plain and simple, because they are much cheaper than MEQs and in the current meta MEQs die too easily. I highly doubt anybody is taking Bolter Henchmen for the purpose of a fire-fight.
With that in mind, think about Guardsmen. They have their orders to boost their abilities, they have to unique ability to adapt their squad sizes based on the mission at hand, and can bring the long ranged firepower that GK desperately lack. Having them also opens up other avenues for allies such as Vendettas.
Its the last tournie of the year so I want to bust draigo and co out for one last hoorah. I want to fill with threats to take as much heat of the paladin star as possible, so figured 3 knights in my opponents backyard, while draigo is moving up should give distractions.
Its the last tournie of the year so I want to bust draigo and co out for one last hoorah. I want to fill with threats to take as much heat of the paladin star as possible, so figured 3 knights in my opponents backyard, while draigo is moving up should give distractions.
Henchman and solo reserve for objectives.
Let me know what you think
All you got differently to my list is coteaz and acolytes, those acolytes are gonna die even if you reserve them. Why dont you just have 2 more solodins, I know that you want to use him to give psychic powers to your paladin deathstar unit but only have 1 solodin and 2 unit of acolytes is just asking to be focused and killed, at with 3 solodin you will have a bit more resilience.
I know this list has been discussed to death already, but unless I missed something (quite possible) no one talked about the weird henchmen configuration. 3 henchmen in a razorback, that's common. 3 henchmen but only 1 has a special weapon? That's odd. Why bother with just one special weapon?
My initial reaction was, 'what, only 4 Troops?' because as usual I forgot Draigo's Grand Strategy.
The main issue you will have are flyers. They may be other bad match-ups too, but I'm too tired right now to think of them.
Sorry godless, yes there will be hammers, normally 3 hammers, 2 halberds, 3 swords, banner and stave.
I dont bother using stratagy to make the knights scoring, because their main purpose it to be fire magnets and die. My opponent can either target the 3 knights in his face or my 20 point hechman squads sitting out of los on objectives (or in reserve), or my paladins. I normally take scout, give it to the paladins so the psycannons can be in range straight away, or the dreadknights so they can move into a better position to make a better shunting move, I find that works really well.
Agree flyers might be an issue, but hopefully the knights will be in combat T2 and draigo by T3 so the flyers wont have much to shoot at, apart from the hell turkey, you dont see to many flyers around here these days anyway. I think I should be safe enough to just ignore them, or get lucky with the 16 psycannon shots with re-rolls to hit if I have to.
Marthike wrote:
All you got differently to my list is coteaz and acolytes, those acolytes are gonna die even if you reserve them. Why dont you just have 2 more solodins, I know that you want to use him to give psychic powers to your paladin deathstar unit but only have 1 solodin and 2 unit of acolytes is just asking to be focused and killed, at with 3 solodin you will have a bit more resilience.
Lets hope you dont face ap 2 large blast
In previous games, I have managed to put the acolytes on objectives out of los, and they stay there all game. My opponent does not have the resources (hopefully) to deal with a 20 point unit, even if it is scoring, because of the 3 knights and the draigostar moving up in his face.
The 8 acolytes cost only 40 points all up so I cant even exchange them for 1 solo, let alone 2. Its the only thing I can so with the points.
tuiman wrote: I dont bother using stratagy to make the knights scoring, because their main purpose it to be fire magnets and die. My opponent can either target the 3 knights in his face or my 20 point hechman squads sitting out of los on objectives (or in reserve), or my paladins. I normally take scout, give it to the paladins so the psycannons can be in range straight away, or the dreadknights so they can move into a better position to make a better shunting move, I find that works really well.
Ok that's fine, but a scoring Dreadknight is even more of a juicy target than a non-scoring Dreadknight. Something to think about
Marthike wrote: Not gonna quote every thing but you sure know your stuff jy2
From what you said, purifers are definatly good enough to be included in a list (I would like to build that GK list because i used to have purifer spam and already have 2 dreadknights so it ill be easy for me to just use those models)
About the storm raven, do you think 1 storm raven can work?
switch 1 unit of purifers with a strom raven? I dont own any strom raven not sure if its worth it, I feel its not gonna give me that much of a advantage to justify it, it will keep 1 of my troops safe, and provide anti air fire power, which i am lacking a bit.
The prolem most army will have atleast 1 anti air gun (agies quad) or 1-2 that can be used for anti air. I just dont know if it will draw enough fire away from my other units and if someone has some dedicated anti air and I have 1 storm raven that gives him a easy target.
The more I talk about it the more i dont think it will work.
Coteaz roll on divination so I will try to give some of my units rerolls to hit. I guess he has to be inside one of the rhinos.
Now I also want to make a paladin list because i also own a paladin army and dont want them to go to waste and not be used.
I say your list jy2 (the one before greyzilla, really like it), i like to keep my list pure GK, atleast i want to try and if it doesn't work out well i will jump to allies.
Still got 35 points left which i might give the dreadknight a sword and MC a few psycannons. This is actully just the old deathstar thing that is nothing new i think.
That list has no fire support but i guess thats how paladins work, Deep strike and kill as much as they can. 2 threats and a mega threat. Also you have said that dreads are not viable in the age of S6/S7 spam I will leave them at home then.
1 stormraven can absolutely work. Drop 1 unit of purifiers and 1 dedicated transport. Then get 1 banisher with your unit of 3-henchmen and put them in the raven. Now you've got some nasty shenanigans against daemons and armies that rely on invuln's.
The Draigowing list is viable. However, consider the following change: Drop the Apothecary. Then add Coteaz. IMO, Coteaz > apothecary.
The smarter play would be to keep the incinerator and drop the teleporter. Then drop both units of henchmen and get 2 soladins instead (perhaps you may have enough points to keep 1 unit of 3 henchmen).
Why keep the incinerator and not the teleporter? Because you can still deepstrike your dreadknight and with Draigo's Psychic Communion, he's coming in on Turn 2 on a 2+. Then you can drop him near the opponent as another disruption unit.
Ok that's fine, but a scoring Dreadknight is even more of a juicy target than a non-scoring Dreadknight. Something to think about
Oh true, didn't think about it like that.
I quite like your idea of only taking 5 man pally squad, but how survivable/effective do you find that they are for you?
No idea as I haven't used them since early 6th edition, but back then when everybody else was running 10 I ran 5 and they did fine. Only time will tell, but I probably won't get to play with my GK for awhile.
The smarter play would be to keep the incinerator and drop the teleporter. Then drop both units of henchmen and get 2 soladins instead (perhaps you may have enough points to keep 1 unit of 3 henchmen).
Why keep the incinerator and not the teleporter? Because you can still deepstrike your dreadknight and with Draigo's Psychic Communion, he's coming in on Turn 2 on a 2+. Then you can drop him near the opponent as another disruption unit.
That sounds like a good plan, but only having 2 knights in my opponents face T1 instead of 3, be a less of a benefit?
Even without the incinerator, I can jump T1, then assault T2. If I reserve, I can come on T2, assault T3, but by then I've come in piecemeal and given my opponent less threats to deal with at one time?
The smarter play would be to keep the incinerator and drop the teleporter. Then drop both units of henchmen and get 2 soladins instead (perhaps you may have enough points to keep 1 unit of 3 henchmen).
Why keep the incinerator and not the teleporter? Because you can still deepstrike your dreadknight and with Draigo's Psychic Communion, he's coming in on Turn 2 on a 2+. Then you can drop him near the opponent as another disruption unit.
That sounds like a good plan, but only having 2 knights in my opponents face T1 instead of 3, be a less of a benefit?
Even without the incinerator, I can jump T1, then assault T2. If I reserve, I can come on T2, assault T3, but by then I've come in piecemeal and given my opponent less threats to deal with at one time?
I'm finding that it's rarely a good idea to jump on T1. It's better to have a little patience and wait for a T2 beta-strike, when you have Draigo and soladins coming in as well (assuming you are deepstriking them) or just soladins if you deploy Draigo on the table in order to use Psychic Communion. So usually on T1, I just get them into position for a T2 strike, moving them behind LOS-blocking terrain or ruins if possible and then attacking when my reserves are coming in.
If you want a T1 alpha-strike, consider Mordrak+Ghost Knights and/or interceptors instead. Then everyone can hit your opponent's army at the same time.
I'd personally go for a TDA Inquisitor with Psycannon and Psyker over Coteaz if you can find 10pts, as he can Deep Strike and thus allow you more freedome with your Paladins' deployment, which Coteaz doesn't allow unless you leave him solo hiding, in which case he is useless.
jy2 wrote: If you want a T1 alpha-strike, consider Mordrak+Ghost Knights and/or interceptors instead. Then everyone can hit your opponent's army at the same time.
Do you think Mordrak as an HQ is a viable build? I tried to build a list around him in 6th and wasn't happy with what I came up with, but that could be just because of my general lack of experience and knowledge. What would be a good 'alpha-strike' GK list?
jy2 wrote: If you want a T1 alpha-strike, consider Mordrak+Ghost Knights and/or interceptors instead. Then everyone can hit your opponent's army at the same time.
Do you think Mordrak as an HQ is a viable build? I tried to build a list around him in 6th and wasn't happy with what I came up with, but that could be just because of my general lack of experience and knowledge. What would be a good 'alpha-strike' GK list?
I'd start with 3 shunting Dreadknights, Mordrak with Ghost Knights, and a Libby with Warp Rift, then season to taste (including your two minimum Troop choices).
Godless-Mimicry wrote: I'd personally go for a TDA Inquisitor with Psycannon and Psyker over Coteaz if you can find 10pts, as he can Deep Strike and thus allow you more freedome with your Paladins' deployment, which Coteaz doesn't allow unless you leave him solo hiding, in which case he is useless.
The TDA Inquisitor isn't a bad deal....but Coteaz just gives you so much bang for the buck. I can see a smaller, 5-man paladin squad to start off in reserves, but with the 10-man paladinstar, you almost always want to start them on the table....lest you potentially get tabled. And with them deployed, then you can take advantage of Draigo's Psychic Communion to manipulate the other reserves.
Coteaz's deepstrike defense is just so good with the paladinstar. I played against a tyranid army with the Doom, ymgarls and a mawloc. Ymgarls come in and I wipe them out with I've Been Expecting You (as well as Prescience on the paladinstar every turn). He then had to deepstrike the Doom and mawloc away. Imagine playing against drop pod armies, which is all the rage in competitive Imperial MEQ nowadays.
Never mind powers like Misfortune, Forewarning or Perfect Timing in addition to Prescience....
jy2 wrote: If you want a T1 alpha-strike, consider Mordrak+Ghost Knights and/or interceptors instead. Then everyone can hit your opponent's army at the same time.
Do you think Mordrak as an HQ is a viable build? I tried to build a list around him in 6th and wasn't happy with what I came up with, but that could be just because of my general lack of experience and knowledge. What would be a good 'alpha-strike' GK list?
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Teleporter - 235
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Teleporter - 235
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Teleporter - 235
1997
If you need scoring, use Grand Strategy on the Interceptors and combat-squad them. Turn 1 you are potentially looking Mordrak's Deathstar, 2-3 units of Interceptors (depending if you combat squad them) and 3 dreadknights if you really want to. Now that is what I call a GK alpha-strike.
Now it's not a really balanced list. The success of such a list depends on certain factors - like 1st turn and what type of army you are going up against. It's not even the most competitive GK list. However, it is a fun as heck list to play. Win or lose is secondary to seeing the look on your opponent's face when you pull a T1 alpha-strike.
If I need to drop anything, the libbie is usually the first to go.
Cool, thanks GM and jy. Question - is Mordrak and his Ghosts that good without the Librarian there? They can't do much first turn (though I guess if they are ignored they will lay down the hurt on turn 2)
jy2 wrote: The TDA Inquisitor isn't a bad deal....but Coteaz just gives you so much bang for the buck. I can see a smaller, 5-man paladin squad to start off in reserves, but with the 10-man paladinstar, you almost always want to start them on the table....lest you potentially get tabled. And with them deployed, then you can take advantage of Draigo's Psychic Communion to manipulate the other reserves.
Coteaz's deepstrike defense is just so good with the paladinstar. I played against a tyranid army with the Doom, ymgarls and a mawloc. Ymgarls come in and I wipe them out with I've Been Expecting You (as well as Prescience on the paladinstar every turn). He then had to deepstrike the Doom and mawloc away. Imagine playing against drop pod armies, which is all the rage in competitive Imperial MEQ nowadays.
Sorry, I was under the impression from past comments that the intention was to Deep Strike the blob.
Super Newb wrote: Cool, thanks GM and jy. Question - is Mordrak and his Ghosts that good without the Librarian there? They can't do much first turn (though I guess if they are ignored they will lay down the hurt on turn 2)
Yes. IMO the librarian is not a must-have but the ghost knights are. Mordrak and his unit's job is not to dish out offense on Turn 1, but rather as target saturation to absorb some firepower. Turn 2 is when the real carnage begins.
jy2 wrote: The TDA Inquisitor isn't a bad deal....but Coteaz just gives you so much bang for the buck. I can see a smaller, 5-man paladin squad to start off in reserves, but with the 10-man paladinstar, you almost always want to start them on the table....lest you potentially get tabled. And with them deployed, then you can take advantage of Draigo's Psychic Communion to manipulate the other reserves.
Coteaz's deepstrike defense is just so good with the paladinstar. I played against a tyranid army with the Doom, ymgarls and a mawloc. Ymgarls come in and I wipe them out with I've Been Expecting You (as well as Prescience on the paladinstar every turn). He then had to deepstrike the Doom and mawloc away. Imagine playing against drop pod armies, which is all the rage in competitive Imperial MEQ nowadays.
Sorry, I was under the impression from past comments that the intention was to Deep Strike the blob.
No worries. I would do that for smaller paladin units (5-man or soladins) but not with my big deathstar. You really don't want to take the chance of them potentially coming in on Turn 4 either.
Just an idea, but could dark angel allies complement a mordrak bomb type of list, for 2k something like
Mordrak + ghosts
Troops ?
Dreadknight with incinerator + teleporter
Dreadknight with incinerator + teleporter
Dreadknight with incinerator + teleporter
Belial
5 deathwing terminators
scout squad with snipers and camo cloaks
Thats 1610 points, and obviuosly needs troops for the gk primary, and some upgrades on the deathwing squad, but any thoughts as to how viable it could be?
Maybe even drop a dreadknight, add a drop pod vet squad or something idk, ideas?
Bigfashizzel wrote: What do you guys think the most competitive strategy/list is with GK? Deep-beta-strike? Mech henchmen MSU? Alpha-shunt? Something else?
Depends on your meta.
I think Grey knights builds tend to group around a few loose strategies based on one of their special characters: Coteaz, Draigo, or Crowe primarily.
There is the Modrak bomb too, which is a lot of fun but not quite as competitive as one of the above three.
In general, scoring henchmen are cheap and awesome, scoring purifiers are efficient and awesome, scoring paladins are a rock against which entire armies will break, dreadknights are expensive and awesome, psi-dreads are efficient and awesome, and the rest is just more or less filler to taste.
Bigfashizzel wrote: What do you guys think the most competitive strategy/list is with GK? Deep-beta-strike? Mech henchmen MSU? Alpha-shunt? Something else?
Depends on your meta.
I think Grey knights builds tend to group around a few loose strategies based on one of their special characters: Coteaz, Draigo, or Crowe primarily.
There is the Modrak bomb too, which is a lot of fun but not quite as competitive as one of the above three.
In general, scoring henchmen are cheap and awesome, scoring purifiers are efficient and awesome, scoring paladins are a rock against which entire armies will break, dreadknights are expensive and awesome, psi-dreads are efficient and awesome, and the rest is just more or less filler to taste.
I slightly disagree, Crowe and purifiers is dead in the water, but yes take either Coteaz, draigo, mordrak and build a list around them
Bigfashizzel wrote: What do you guys think the most competitive strategy/list is with GK? Deep-beta-strike? Mech henchmen MSU? Alpha-shunt? Something else?
Depends on your meta.
I think Grey knights builds tend to group around a few loose strategies based on one of their special characters: Coteaz, Draigo, or Crowe primarily.
There is the Modrak bomb too, which is a lot of fun but not quite as competitive as one of the above three.
In general, scoring henchmen are cheap and awesome, scoring purifiers are efficient and awesome, scoring paladins are a rock against which entire armies will break, dreadknights are expensive and awesome, psi-dreads are efficient and awesome, and the rest is just more or less filler to taste.
I slightly disagree, Crowe and purifiers is dead in the water, but yes take either Coteaz, draigo, mordrak and build a list around them
Though i agree with you 100%, I won't get into another full discussion about Purifiers here
Bah, I hate using named HQs, would be so happy if all the inquisitors could unlock henchmen troops, even if they had to buy equipment up to 100 pts to do so.
Bigfashizzel wrote: Bah, I hate using named HQs, would be so happy if all the inquisitors could unlock henchmen troops, even if they had to buy equipment up to 100 pts to do so.
Really? A third post about this?
How can you get this riled up over a little resin bald guy?
Bigfashizzel wrote: Bah, I hate using named HQs, would be so happy if all the inquisitors could unlock henchmen troops, even if they had to buy equipment up to 100 pts to do so.
So play with an inquisitor that 'counts as' Coteaz. That's what I do. I kit bashed him. Problem solved. Please exalt my post.
Bigfashizzel wrote: Bah, I hate using named HQs, would be so happy if all the inquisitors could unlock henchmen troops, even if they had to buy equipment up to 100 pts to do so.
I can relate, but they are just very efficient and, well, unique for what they do.
The named HQs do things that you literally cannot get with their generic equivalents, especially Coteaz, Draigo, and Modrak.
That and Coteaz is a contender for 'most under-costed relative to his statline, abilities, and utility' HQ model ever.
I advise just saying your Inquisitor model of choice 'counts as' using Coteazs' ruleset if you really just dislike the psyber eagle on his model or somesuch.
Can't wait to run it alongside Dreadknights and Draigo!
I magnetized the arms to let me swap around things but so far I've been happiest with the distortion lances.
A guy at my local shop swore by the suncannon, and I have to admit I did model it with that and the scattershield (and the sword! mwahaha). My local tourneys aren't exactly strict on modeled loadouts, so I can basically just say what I am running and that would be fine. I plan on trying out both the distortion lances and the suncannon.
jy2 wrote: I'll find out soon enough. I'm taking grey knights to a tournament....and it's going to be Draigowing! It's going to be at 2K and a grueling 6-games 2-day event with probably 200+ people. It's not pure GK, with necrons as allies, but it has the potential to do well. What am I taking?
2K "Draicronic Measures" NecroKnights
Draigo
Coteaz
10x Paladins - "the works" including Apothecary
1x Hammerdin
Psyfleman Dread
Psyfleman Dread
Allies:
Necron Overlord - 2+, MSS, Warscythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
Annihilation Barge
It's not a very balanced army and it'll actually be the first time I am taking Draigowing to a tournament, but if I/my team doesn't make it to the Top 10, then I will be disappointed.
Just an update on my tournament. I took my Draicronic Measures Draigowing+Necrons army to the ATC. This is a 2K team tournament, with 32 teams and 5 players per team very similar in format to the more well-known ETC. I'm happy to say that our team - Team Fluffy Bunnies - took 1st in the tournament, beating the 2-time defending champs, Wrecking BOL's, in the process. I especially want to give a shout-out to our very own MOD - Janthkin - for going 6-0 for our team and winning Best Tyranid Player in the process.
BTW, it was strange how they grouped all the marine players - space marines, grey knights, space wolves, blood angels, etc. - under 1 catergory....just Best Space Marines. Officially, I didn't win anything, but unofficially, I would have been the Best Grey Knight player had they given out the award. I was the 3rd Best Space Marine player behind 2 space wolves players.
Look for my batreps coming out in the next few days.
daedalus-templarius wrote: A guy at my local shop swore by the suncannon, and I have to admit I did model it with that and the scattershield (and the sword! mwahaha). My local tourneys aren't exactly strict on modeled loadouts, so I can basically just say what I am running and that would be fine. I plan on trying out both the distortion lances and the suncannon.
What you should do - and what would look extremely cool - is to mount the Heavy D-cannons on his shoulders just like the broadsides. Then you can under-sling the scatter lasers underneath his sword fore-arm and have every weapon represented on the beast. I think it'll actually look pretty cool.
LValx wrote: JY2, that Paladin list is solid. Reminds me a lot of what I took to last years NOVA. Though i'd probably want DKs over Psyflemen.
For a TAC list in tournament play, I prefer running psyfleman dreads with Draigowing. And boy, did I need them or what. Over the course of 6 games, I went against:
4 Heldrakes
3 Night Scythes
3 Stormravens
7 Vendettas
Come to think of it, I got matched up against all the flyer armies!
LValx wrote: JY2, that Paladin list is solid. Reminds me a lot of what I took to last years NOVA. Though i'd probably want DKs over Psyflemen.
For a TAC list in tournament play, I prefer running psyfleman dreads with Draigowing. And boy, did I need them or what. Over the course of 6 games, I went against:
4 Heldrakes
3 Night Scythes
3 Stormravens
7 Vendettas
Come to think of it, I got matched up against all the flyer armies!
My experience with Draigowing was that Flyers were easily defeated, very easily. I dont think I ever lost to an army that put significant points into flyers, including 3x Vendetta armies. I suppose I find the Psyflemen too easy to destroy for armies like Tau/Crons/Eldar. The DK is tough target for just about all opponents.
Anyone else been having success with stormbolter acolytes? I've had very good experiences with 10 stormbolter acolytes, a DCA and a Crusader, with Coteaz buffing one of these units with rerolls to hit. 2 units cost 200 pts and that is 2 scoring units with 20 bolter hits out to 30" (including move).
Do you think bolter acolytes are better per point?
I love stormbolter squads, they seem to do much better then my bolt squads due to the extended range, although I would recommend dropping the DCA and taking a jokaero. Rending stormbolters have killed up to 3 whole units in one game.
Super Newb wrote: Interesting, does the DCA and the Crusader really help that much with fending off charges?
I wouldn't imagine so. I can see the point of the Crusader to tank shots (though one T3 MEQ won't do much of that to be fair), but the DCA seems totally pointless in there. Perhaps he is trying to make he to be a sort of pseudo-Sergeant just to get a Power Weapon in there.
Hey people! I already asked this in the SoB tactics thread but as you are all more experienced with GK I wanted to know what you think about this:
I consider in taking some sisters and I wanted to ask you if I take out my 2x Dreadknights (they both have Incinerator + Teleporter) I can save 470 points . For those points I think -if I had my calculations correctly- I can include :
St. Celestine , 2x Battle Sisters squads (of 10) both having 2x meltaguns and 1x Seraphim squad (of 5) which they go with St. Celestine
Fast Atk:
10x Interceptors w/ 2x psycannons + 8x swords + psy ammo 300
So my question(s) is : do you think the SoB troops I consider to add worth the trade of my 2x Dreadknights? And if they do , do I have to equip them differently (adding chainswords or other heavy weapons I mean)?
I really don't know a lot about SoB but I find them really cool so thanks in advance!!
Spectral wrote: Hey people! I already asked this in the SoB tactics thread but as you are all more experienced with GK I wanted to know what you think about this:
I consider in taking some sisters and I wanted to ask you if I take out my 2x Dreadknights (they both have Incinerator + Teleporter) I can save 470 points . For those points I think -if I had my calculations correctly- I can include :
St. Celestine , 2x Battle Sisters squads (of 10) both having 2x meltaguns and 1x Seraphim squad (of 5) which they go with St. Celestine
Fast Atk:
10x Interceptors w/ 2x psycannons + 8x swords + psy ammo 300
So my question(s) is : do you think the SoB troops I consider to add worth the trade of my 2x Dreadknights? And if they do , do I have to equip them differently (adding chainswords or other heavy weapons I mean)?
I really don't know a lot about SoB but I find them really cool so thanks in advance!!
This is somewhat close to what I was doing in my last 1500 tourney where I got best general in a 4 game series. My list ended up being:
For what your list looks like, I'd make the following changes -
drop the vindicare - reasons: you dont' have a techmarine to bolster ruins so he'll be only running around with a 3+ at best of times and will be very easy to gun down unless you stick him in some sort of pistol rhino combo
The sisters squads are ok but have a lot of mobility issues and don't give your list the power it needs to threaten the enemy side of the board. Most of your crusaders are just going to sit there with coteaz since the unit is immobile, consider getting them a fortification and just use bolter henchmen to trim points and allow you to leverage the BS4 of coteaz which will probably be prescienced.
Terminators are alright but generally lack the survivability I normally expect out of them now a days since I do see a ton of Tau/Eldar rending lately and most lists pack enough AP2 to make it not worth while since they are so slow. I'd trim that unit to make room for the DK's.
Interceptors are actually pretty sweet. I like them a lot and will synergize with shunting DK's very nicely. Pair them up for like a beta strike - i.e. hide things till st.celestine + the seraphrims are ready to get in there from a deep strike or just foot slog across the board. Your fire base with coteaz and henchmen should be enough to distract or at least hinder the enemy's long range shooting. Remember you can prescience them then have them shunt.
My Maleus inquisitor has generally been with purifiers or possibly purgation squad in a chimera believe it or not. prescienced 5 psycannons is serious 24' bubble of death and should be decently sturdy with AV12 and some cover if you got it (or brought it with a bastion/aegis) They'd steal this from some henchmen of course. Warp spiders has hurt my rear/side armor 10's a lot though so it's not always a sure thing but great fun when supported properly (i.e. box in with psybacks/terrain)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Coyote81 wrote: I love stormbolter squads, they seem to do much better then my bolt squads due to the extended range, although I would recommend dropping the DCA and taking a jokaero. Rending stormbolters have killed up to 3 whole units in one game.
I too support this. Also for flavor - try 2 or even 1 sanctioned psyker. Makes you deny the witch on a 5+ for those pesky mindwars and eldritch storms/hallucinations. Also lets you toss out large blast templates on things. Sure it's a lasgun strength (or bolter if you go with 2 of them) but it does surprisingly well vs hordes of things like gnats/orks/hordes of kroot/guardsmen. This will also takes the firing priority out of the problem as your anti-tank jokaero will not be forced to fire at infantry targets and your storm bolters won't get wasted on tank armor. It's not that easy to get rending guaranteed nor the extended range so personally I prefer to specialize my firepower more.
Hey GK gurus, I've been wracking my brain trying to come up with something workable for the core set of models that I have, and for the most part I'm coming up blank.
I'd really like to use the following (so let's assume that these guys are gonna stay), but I also want a list that's competitive enough to not just get wiped off the board by any army that looks at it funny.
Grand Master, Halberd (+choice of upgrades) 5x Paladins, 2x Psycannons, Banner (+choice of upgrades) (I do have other models, but these are the real core of what I enjoy seeing on the table; they're my showcase pieces)
I know it's not the most efficient setup, but it's how I have them modeled and unless I'm proxying the GM as Draigo I'd like to stick to the models as much as I can. I generally run 1500-1750 to keep the games timely, so that's another annoying restriction I've been dealing with. The low-model count really becomes a game-breaker as the points level goes down.
Anyway, I'd appreciate any thoughts on the matter; how I should round out the force, if I should bring certain allies, etc...
Super Newb wrote:Interesting, does the DCA and the Crusader really help that much with fending off charges?
Coyote81 wrote:I love stormbolter squads, they seem to do much better then my bolt squads due to the extended range, although I would recommend dropping the DCA and taking a jokaero. Rending stormbolters have killed up to 3 whole units in one game.
My aim was to get cost effective torrent fire into my lists. Just played a game where 12 stormbolter acolytes buffed by prescience stripped the final 2 wounds from a riptide - it's for this kind of thing that I want torrent fire to meet my overall strategy of making my opponent roll as many defensive dice as possible. I guess I'm an ork at heart.
The weakness as far as I can see it with stormbolter acolytes is that they are forced to roll leadership tests very easily. The crusader was an obvious solution - even if he gets taken out on the 3rd or so hit he may still allow his unit to avoid a Ld test for an extra turn. In addition, sticking Coteaz or an Inquisitor with termy armour up front does a similar job (not to mention Ld10) when it also makes sense to give the inquisitor prescience to buff the offensive as well as the defensive power. I move my acolytes up in waves or put the inquisitors near to adjacent squads so they can switch squads if they need to. I'm still not sure whether the crusader is worthwhile though.
The DCA is to utilise one of the potential strengths of henchmen squads which is to create a swiss army knife. For instance, the unit can assault other frail units or indeed a very small number of tougher models and at least cause a lot of pain. Not sure how worthwhile he is though yet, hence why I ask what experiences others have.
I guess what I can't get my head around is why people take bolter acolytes at all - stormbolter acolytes seem to be so much better - that extra 12" range is essential for such a fragile unit that may also have range limited by needing to be in cover.
I've been reading up a lot on the new space marine stuff and it looks interesting but not sure quite how to leverage it for GK.
I've always wanted to group up some GK + Deathwatch but not exactly sure what this would translate into for effectiveness on the board. Anyone played much with this combo before?
I use to run a "Tri-Ordo" list back in the Daemon Hunter/Witch Hunter days, using the old 3rd Ed codex allies rules. Doesn't work in 6th, but it was a fun and fluffy list to play in 5th before the 5th Ed GK codex.
Deathwatch component:
SM Librarian
2x SM Tacticals
2x GH Land Raiders
1x Land Raider Crusader
1x GKT squad (Brother-captains led GKT squads back then)
2x PAGK squad
1x Fast PAGK squad
Gave me 2 HQ, 1 Elite, 5 Troops, 2 Fast, 3 Heavies for 2000pts.
These days, though, you'd have to chose 2 of the 3 Ordos o represent using the current allies rules, although you can technically do all 3 just from the GK codex (GKT = OM, PAGK = OX, henchfolk = OH).
However, the best model for Deathwatch are Sternguard, which you can get either via primary SM or allied SM.
Having said that sudojoe (about the deathwatch I mean) have you heard any rumor about Exorcists chapter? Are they going to be in the new codex?
I hear a lot about the new SM too and they sound very interesting , so why not our "successor" chapter ? And I don't really know a lot for them but what units do you think they fit in a GK list fluff-wise ??
Exorcists are codex Marines that only deviate in that they have 2 scout companies. Their ability to ignore daemonic possession does not have a rule in the current edition of the game, while their use of daemon weapons is more of a modeling theme than a change in rules. Their fluff is cool, though.
Spectral wrote: Having said that sudojoe (about the deathwatch I mean) have you heard any rumor about Exorcists chapter? Are they going to be in the new codex?
I hear a lot about the new SM too and they sound very interesting , so why not our "successor" chapter ? And I don't really know a lot for them but what units do you think they fit in a GK list fluff-wise ??
sadly, there is apparently only a paragraph of fluff on them. They don't have a chapter tactics. You would play them as a homebrew or unknown progenitor chapter and pick w/e chapter trait you want or use Count as.
Yeah he 'll have 1 maybe 2 Riptides .. with interceptor rule ... yeah .. so I have to DS Mordrak and his unit out of its(theirs) LoS .. Good point Godless-Mimicry thanks!
Ok then !! I played the list but with some changes which where : another interceptor squad as the above in GKSS place and for their 10 extra points I had 5x bolter acolytes in Coteaz unit instead of 7x ..
I had terrible dice till the end of turn 3 (something like 13 or more 1s in my saves ) but then my opponent made a terrible mistake to leave the remaining DK alone and he gain me 6 vp because we were playing mission 2 : Purge the alien .. 16 vp for me to 12 vp my opponent ..
He had 2x Riptides but without interceptor rule and he explained that if he had (interceptor) and used it he couldn't fire the same weapons next turn .. I have no rulebook now so did he had it right (the rule I mean) ?
Yep, that is correct. Interceptor rule prevents you from firing that weapon the following turn. (can be used again on opponent's movement phase next turn though)
Oh lawdy, the Wraithknight made some serious murder time fun time against tyranids tonight. So much suncannon death.
Also one of my Dreadknights was charged by like 15 outflanking genestealers, took 1 wound on the first assault and then proceeded to slowly kill the entire squad over the course of the game.
Used some Warp Spiders and Dire Avengers tonight too, was pleasantly surprised.
Had a thought (probably something I've read here before but forgot about lol). Anyway,
What do you guys think about having smaller sized henchmen units in chimeras? The goal would be to have three special weapons and a few other guys, and that's it. No 12 man squad (like IG is forced to do). The advantage of this is how cheap it is. Having 3 or 4 (or more?) of these as troops frees up a lot of points for scary stuff.
Something like 3 plasma acolytes, 3 bolter acolytes, chimera.
Sure it is.
You can even have just 3 acolytes with special weapons in a chimera/razorback/rhino for cheaper cost.
At the moment i am trying to work a good Alpha Strike GK list without allies (hard) and it is as follows (2k pts)
Coteaz
Mordrak+5 Knights
3*DK with teleporter and heavy incinerator
2*10Interceptor with 2psycanon and psyamo
3* 3acolytes in razorback with psyamo
Only issue is the lack of scoring units (i would keep them in reserve).
Or i could take out Coteaz and the acolytes and take 2*6 GKSS with psycanon (in reserve as well)
daedalus-templarius wrote: Also one of my Dreadknights was charged by like 15 outflanking genestealers, took 1 wound on the first assault and then proceeded to slowly kill the entire squad over the course of the game.
How did he charge from Outflank?
Super Newb wrote: What do you guys think about having smaller sized henchmen units in chimeras? The goal would be to have three special weapons and a few other guys, and that's it. No 12 man squad (like IG is forced to do).
Guard aren't forced into having 12 man squads at all. Vets go at 10 men, and Special Weapon Squads go at 6.
Is 3 special weapon acolytes in a razorback a good idea? Their guns don't work until they get out. After they get out, they'll be shot dead.
I figured a chimera would be better since they could shoot form inside and the chimera still has some decent guns itself.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Godless-Mimicry wrote: Guard aren't forced into having 12 man squads at all. Vets go at 10 men, and Special Weapon Squads go at 6.
Whoops! I guess I was thinking of vets, but even there I got the number wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another (probably old) idea. For those who run with two Inquisitor HQs (Coteaz and another guy), isn't a Psyocculum Inquisitor a good idea? Whole unit is BS 10 anytime they're shooting a unit that contains a psyker. That could work out quite well with either mass psycannon fire, or with henchmen like plasma servitors, plasma acolytes and jokero
daedalus-templarius wrote: Also one of my Dreadknights was charged by like 15 outflanking genestealers, took 1 wound on the first assault and then proceeded to slowly kill the entire squad over the course of the game.
How did he charge from Outflank?
Super Newb wrote: What do you guys think about having smaller sized henchmen units in chimeras? The goal would be to have three special weapons and a few other guys, and that's it. No 12 man squad (like IG is forced to do).
Guard aren't forced into having 12 man squads at all. Vets go at 10 men, and Special Weapon Squads go at 6.
I've had a lot of success with 4 units that are this build(psybolt razorback, 5x warrior acolytes with 3x plasma gun) it's a cool 100 points for all of that jazz. Yeah the can't shoot out of the razorbacks, but they never last too long anyway. I'd probably never take it for competitive games though.
Guys, I'm trying to design a more "in your face" list using GK. Now I only have 2 DK and it will be a LONG time before I ever buy and build a third, so my limit is two there, lol. With that restriction, I feel like the best list I could come up with liberally uses SW as allies (which is good as they are the only non-GK guys I have around lol):
1750 GK + SW In Your Face
GK:
Coteaz
3 PC Servitors, 2 Warrior Acolytes with plasmaguns, 6 Acolytes with bolters, Chimera
3 acolytes, Psybolt Razorback
3 acolytes, Psybolt Razorback
2 Dreadknights, HI + PT
SW:
Rune Priest
Wolf Guard - 5 PA with combi-weapons, 2 TDA with combi-weapons ans fists, Drop Pod
10 GH, 2 Plasma, WS, Drop Pod
10 GH, 2 Melta, WS, Drop Pod
daedalus-templarius wrote: Also one of my Dreadknights was charged by like 15 outflanking genestealers, took 1 wound on the first assault and then proceeded to slowly kill the entire squad over the course of the game.
How did he charge from Outflank?
Super Newb wrote: What do you guys think about having smaller sized henchmen units in chimeras? The goal would be to have three special weapons and a few other guys, and that's it. No 12 man squad (like IG is forced to do).
Guard aren't forced into having 12 man squads at all. Vets go at 10 men, and Special Weapon Squads go at 6.
Wow so you really can't charge from outflank?
Where is that in the rules?
Probably the assault rules or else the reserve rules; you can never charge from any kind of reserves in 6th unless given special permission to d so, such as Ymgarls or Lucius Pods.
daedalus-templarius wrote: Also one of my Dreadknights was charged by like 15 outflanking genestealers, took 1 wound on the first assault and then proceeded to slowly kill the entire squad over the course of the game.
How did he charge from Outflank?
Super Newb wrote: What do you guys think about having smaller sized henchmen units in chimeras? The goal would be to have three special weapons and a few other guys, and that's it. No 12 man squad (like IG is forced to do).
Guard aren't forced into having 12 man squads at all. Vets go at 10 men, and Special Weapon Squads go at 6.
Wow so you really can't charge from outflank?
Where is that in the rules?
Probably the assault rules or else the reserve rules; you can never charge from any kind of reserves in 6th unless given special permission to d so, such as Ymgarls or Lucius Pods.
I will have to tell him that his genestealers are even more pathetic now. Then laugh
So when it comes to equipping Paladins/Termies, are Halberds still the way to go, or are swords better now? I'd think that with only one exception (Incubi), most things that hit at AP2 now go at the after you, and those few that do now (DPs, GDs, Genestealers, Avatar of Khaine) will still go before you even with the Halberds, or be I1 since you have the psyk-out grenades making I6 pointless, in which case you'd want the 4++ in case it survives your first round of attacks.
And wow I just realized something, anyone else think the Super high initiative of new Daemons/Avatar was created specifically in response to GK halberds?
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: So when it comes to equipping Paladins/Termies, are Halberds still the way to go, or are swords better now? I'd think that with only one exception (Incubi), most things that hit at AP2 now go at the after you, and those few that do now (DPs, GDs, Genestealers, Avatar of Khaine) will still go before you even with the Halberds, or be I1 since you have the psyk-out grenades making I6 pointless, in which case you'd want the 4++ in case it survives your first round of attacks.
And wow I just realized something, anyone else think the Super high initiative of new Daemons/Avatar was created specifically in response to GK halberds?
Doesn't Psyk-out grenades basically negate this advantage?
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: So when it comes to equipping Paladins/Termies, are Halberds still the way to go, or are swords better now? I'd think that with only one exception (Incubi), most things that hit at AP2 now go at the after you, and those few that do now (DPs, GDs, Genestealers, Avatar of Khaine) will still go before you even with the Halberds, or be I1 since you have the psyk-out grenades making I6 pointless, in which case you'd want the 4++ in case it survives your first round of attacks.
And wow I just realized something, anyone else think the Super high initiative of new Daemons/Avatar was created specifically in response to GK halberds?
Doesn't Psyk-out grenades basically negate this advantage?
They only work if GK charge, not if they are charged first. And with most GD being FMC or being fleet they will usually be the ones charging unless something goes horribly wrong for them...
With the prevalence of AP2 weapons for Tau and Eldar, and with the new C:SM codex having Devs/predators, Sternguard, pretty much everything that can hurt them now super cheap, is it even worth tricking a DK anymore. I'm thinking just running him with the teleporter is all you need, 205pts, and coupled with a once per game 36" move you have a great distraction carnifex. You're first turn, just move him right next to the enemy and force them to deal with him. Yes, he'll die, but thats less things shooting at your other stuff, and if the off chance he survives, hes gonna take something down before he goes down turn 2...
With the prevalence of AP2 weapons for Tau and Eldar, and with the new C:SM codex having Devs/predators, Sternguard, pretty much everything that can hurt them now super cheap, is it even worth tricking a DK anymore. I'm thinking just running him with the teleporter is all you need, 205pts, and coupled with a once per game 36" move you have a great distraction carnifex. You're first turn, just move him right next to the enemy and force them to deal with him. Yes, he'll die, but thats less things shooting at your other stuff, and if the off chance he survives, hes gonna take something down before he goes down turn 2...
What benefit is the shunt if he can't even shoot afterward?
I wouldn't just give my opponent a 205 point model (235 for me as Incinerator is a lot of wounds IMHO) to kill it 1st round .. I just don't think that strategy is going to work .. If it's a Tau army I would add 2x DK and 2x Interceptors and Mordrak and be 1st turn in his face so he won't know where to focus and have my Inquisition firing from behind .. If it's an Eldar army I'll see if I can outrange him and if I don't I'll try to and if that's not gonna work either then I'll shunt again with my DK probably ..
Just feeding the opponents one of your deadly tools isn't going to work that's what I think anyway ..
With the prevalence of AP2 weapons for Tau and Eldar, and with the new C:SM codex having Devs/predators, Sternguard, pretty much everything that can hurt them now super cheap, is it even worth tricking a DK anymore. I'm thinking just running him with the teleporter is all you need, 205pts, and coupled with a once per game 36" move you have a great distraction carnifex. You're first turn, just move him right next to the enemy and force them to deal with him. Yes, he'll die, but thats less things shooting at your other stuff, and if the off chance he survives, hes gonna take something down before he goes down turn 2...
What benefit is the shunt if he can't even shoot afterward?
What makes you think you can't shoot after Shunting?
You just can't assault. In fact the Personal Teliporter rule explicitly says you can shoot or run after using the shunt. You just can't assault.
With the prevalence of AP2 weapons for Tau and Eldar, and with the new C:SM codex having Devs/predators, Sternguard, pretty much everything that can hurt them now super cheap, is it even worth tricking a DK anymore. I'm thinking just running him with the teleporter is all you need, 205pts, and coupled with a once per game 36" move you have a great distraction carnifex. You're first turn, just move him right next to the enemy and force them to deal with him. Yes, he'll die, but thats less things shooting at your other stuff, and if the off chance he survives, hes gonna take something down before he goes down turn 2...
What benefit is the shunt if he can't even shoot afterward?
What makes you think you can't shoot after Shunting?
You just can't assault. In fact the Personal Teliporter rule explicitly says you can shoot or run after using the shunt. You just can't assault.
If you don't equip it with a ranged weapon, which is what he was suggesting, I think.
With the prevalence of AP2 weapons for Tau and Eldar, and with the new C:SM codex having Devs/predators, Sternguard, pretty much everything that can hurt them now super cheap, is it even worth tricking a DK anymore. I'm thinking just running him with the teleporter is all you need, 205pts, and coupled with a once per game 36" move you have a great distraction carnifex. You're first turn, just move him right next to the enemy and force them to deal with him. Yes, he'll die, but thats less things shooting at your other stuff, and if the off chance he survives, hes gonna take something down before he goes down turn 2...
What benefit is the shunt if he can't even shoot afterward?
What makes you think you can't shoot after Shunting?
You just can't assault. In fact the Personal Teliporter rule explicitly says you can shoot or run after using the shunt. You just can't assault.
if your only assault option is a single DK, then you are using your assault assets wrong.
A single anything assaulting will get chewed up pretty fast by any gunline army.
A gunline army will fold if charged by 4-5 things at the same time. The trick is to get them all into position by turn 1-2.
If you plan to out shoot Tau or IG or gunline SM, then you are definitely not going to really do well. (unless your GK are just suicidial bullet catchers)
Ok, guys, finally finished the report for my tournament experiences at the ATC 2K. If you want to get some insight on Grey Knight tactics - actually, Draigowing tactics - or if you just want an entertaining read, you can find my report at:
jy2 wrote: Ok, guys, finally finished the report for my tournament experiences at the ATC 2K. If you want to get some insight on Grey Knight tactics - actually, Draigowing tactics - or if you just want an entertaining read, you can find my report at:
Been playing Draigo and a small wing, 2 DKs, and Eldar, been working pretty well.
I am thinking the two Wraithcannons are a better fit for the Wraithknight rather than the suncannon, unless you know you're going to be fighting against a ton of infantry.
The DKs Incinerator seems to handle that job pretty well for the most part.
Might be playing it against the latest tourney winner soon, which was Daemons. He told me they basically lost the collar of Khorne, which negates that super sweet 2+ save against force weapons. He seems to think I will eat him alive now, lol.
I guess Bloodthirster's strength did get knocked down... so he won't instakill a bunch of Paladins on the way in.
Has anyone else noticed a shift in the meta back to Tri-Raider lists? I see a lot of new Space Marine lists taking 2 to 3 Land Raiders to counter all the AP 3 and AP 2 infantry killer weapons found in newer codexes. Also, there is a shift back to Lascannons as the preferred anti-vehicle/anti-MC weapon. Its almost like the meta has swung back to 5th.
To add to this, people in my area are talking about Rhino spam again, putting 9 to 10 on the table at 1850. Makes me want to dust off my Sisters' Immolator list.
Been playing Draigo and a small wing, 2 DKs, and Eldar, been working pretty well.
I am thinking the two Wraithcannons are a better fit for the Wraithknight rather than the suncannon, unless you know you're going to be fighting against a ton of infantry.
The DKs Incinerator seems to handle that job pretty well for the most part.
Might be playing it against the latest tourney winner soon, which was Daemons. He told me they basically lost the collar of Khorne, which negates that super sweet 2+ save against force weapons. He seems to think I will eat him alive now, lol.
I guess Bloodthirster's strength did get knocked down... so he won't instakill a bunch of Paladins on the way in.
Oh, and Daemons don't have EW anymore either?
Daemons can still be dangerous to the grey knights. They're actually a very good army and if you're not careful, they can crush you. There are a lot of daemonic "tricks" like re-rollable 2++ saves (yes, that's a re-rollable 2++ Invuln save) and massed Flying MC's with lots of psychic powers (Enfeeble or Hallucination is a real b*tch to paladins). You're lucky he's running Khorne, as that may be one of the weaker of the daemon armies (and even then, Khorne-dog builds are pretty tough for most armies to deal with). The BT can still insa-kill paladins depending on his load-out and if he gets the charge (could be S8-9 on the charge). But you can deal with him quite easily if you have a warding stave in your unit (which I normally do).
I definitely recommend the 2x wraithcannons for your wraithknight. Take that and now you can afford another soladin. You are also now a threat to vehicles (here's looking at those land raiders) as well as MC's with the insta-killing distort rules.
But luckily for us, no more EW for daemons. Now the dreadknight is actually deadly against them.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Has anyone else noticed a shift in the meta back to Tri-Raider lists? I see a lot of new Space Marine lists taking 2 to 3 Land Raiders to counter all the AP 3 and AP 2 infantry killer weapons found in newer codexes. Also, there is a shift back to Lascannons as the preferred anti-vehicle/anti-MC weapon. Its almost like the meta has swung back to 5th.
To add to this, people in my area are talking about Rhino spam again, putting 9 to 10 on the table at 1850. Makes me want to dust off my Sisters' Immolator list.
SJ
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
What comes around, goes around.
Life is a big fat circle.
Yada, yada, yada.....
BTW, I'm running space wolves in land raiders now.
Daemons can still be dangerous to the grey knights. They're actually a very good army and if you're not careful, they can crush you. There are a lot of daemonic "tricks" like re-rollable 2++ saves (yes, that's a re-rollable 2++ Invuln save) and massed Flying MC's with lots of psychic powers (Enfeeble or Hallucination is a real b*tch to paladins). You're lucky he's running Khorne, as that may be one of the weaker of the daemon armies (and even then, Khorne-dog builds are pretty tough for most armies to deal with). The BT can still insa-kill paladins depending on his load-out and if he gets the charge (could be S8-9 on the charge). But you can deal with him quite easily if you have a warding stave in your unit (which I normally do).
I definitely recommend the 2x wraithcannons for your wraithknight. Take that and now you can afford another soladin. You are also now a threat to vehicles (here's looking at those land raiders) as well as MC's with the insta-killing distort rules.
But luckily for us, no more EW for daemons. Now the dreadknight is actually deadly against them.
Oh god I remember the agony during a tournament a while ago. BT charged and was S8 into the left side of my paladins, Draigo had been turned into a spawn right before that (so painful) so he was of no use, and the BT just went ahead and instant-deathed about 6 of my Paladins right away.
That game went really poorly!
I am looking forward to seeing how his new stuff plays.
As for LRs on the rise, I have 4 LRs, and I could totally do a tri-raider list. But it just seems that Paladins and Draigo are better out of a transport and shooting from the first turn with Psycannons, Coteaz w/ Prescience, etc. But I could definitely see sticking GKs in PA into a LR, considering they are really vulnerable these days.
Have an idea about allying Grey Knights into my Eldar list. One thing I found that is really a problem for Eldar are Drop Pods and Deep Strikers dropping right in front of your Serpents. Also against certain enemies going first is a must. Lastly, immense hoards with cover might be an issue for some lists.
I was thinking Coteaz, 10 Strikes and a Dreadknight would make good allies for a 3-4 Serpents list with 2 Wraithknights tacked on. This gives re-roll to seize, Deep Strike protection, some additional AA with Prescienced Psycannons, and the Dreadknight for anti-hoard and more monstery fun.
", although I've seen how they
I only actually saved just one pen, nothing much else happened to it. Also lascannons are actually kind of bad vs the bastion since it still needs 5's to even glance it which just results in a wound to people inside. You can only really destroy it with meltas and rolling 5's on the explosion chart. Pretty sturdy building!
) but then my opponent made a terrible mistake to leave the remaining 
. On the other hand my english are not that good 
