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If I don't need the best/strongest list ever and stick to ONLY GK (no allies) what kind of list would that be? I feel like it would have to include Coteaz and some henchmen, just to keep costs down...

Yeah I agree, problem is I don't like Henchmen that much, as IG do their job better.

I like Coteaz, 2 dreadknights, a storm raven with 3 warrior acolytes with 3 melta guns inside. aegis line, 3 plasma cannon servos with warrior acolyte meat shields. Coteaz goes with this group and behind the line. After that I spam psybacks with 5 warrior acolytes toting 3x plasma guns.

Im thinking that 3 dreadknights is almost mandatory now, Ive run pure gk builds for all my tournies this year but slowly my placings have dropped as tau and now eldar got introduced.

Im thinking either tau, eldar, crons or guard as allies has to be in there, as much as I hate to do, I agree it just doesn't feel right.My brother has an old eldar army, so Im probably going to go down that route, gk/eldar seems to have the possibility to be a strong build I reckon.

Well IG allies doesn't bother me like the others do, so that's what I'm trying.

Hey people!! As Super Newb suggested I like to build a 2k army based only from our codex . That's the list so far :

Hq:
Coteaz 100

Elites:
Techmarine w/ power axe + rad grenades 100
Vindicare Assassin 145

Troops:
1st Henchmen Unit: 3x plasma cannon servitors + 2x Jokaero + 4x crusaders 190 (they go with Coteaz in a bolstered ruin)
2nd Henchmen Unit: 7x death cult assassins w/ power sword + power axe + 4x crusaders 165 (they go with Techmarine into the redeemer)

Fast Atk:
10x Interceptors w/ 2x psycannons + 8x swords + psy ammo 300

Heavy Support:
2x Dreadknights w/ heavy Incinerator + teleporter 470
1x Redeemer w/ psy ammo 250

So what would you include in the above list for the remaining 280 points?? I know I don't have AA so it's an Aegis line or a stormraven I suppose (only problem of the aegis line is that it can't be bolstered by techmarine ...I think ) On the other hand in my local meta there are little flyers so is it better option to spam las razorbacks with 3x acolytes??

Thanks in advance!!

I would like to make a TAC GK list without allies, I know its not as good but I would prefer it if its GK only.

I modified jy2's list but I am not sure if this is any good.

Coteaz. 100 pts
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino - 189
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino - 189
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino - 189
3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts

Total 1732 pts

Spectral wrote:Hey people!! As Super Newb suggested I like to build a 2k army based only from our codex . That's the list so far :

Hq:
Coteaz 100

Elites:
Techmarine w/ power axe + rad grenades 100
Vindicare Assassin 145

Troops:
1st Henchmen Unit: 3x plasma cannon servitors + 2x Jokaero + 4x crusaders 190 (they go with Coteaz in a bolstered ruin)
2nd Henchmen Unit: 7x death cult assassins w/ power sword + power axe + 4x crusaders 165 (they go with Techmarine into the redeemer)

Fast Atk:
10x Interceptors w/ 2x psycannons + 8x swords + psy ammo 300

Heavy Support:
2x Dreadknights w/ heavy Incinerator + teleporter 470
1x Redeemer w/ psy ammo 250

So what would you include in the above list for the remaining 280 points?? I know I don't have AA so it's an Aegis line or a stormraven I suppose (only problem of the aegis line is that it can't be bolstered by techmarine ...I think ) On the other hand in my local meta there are little flyers so is it better option to spam las razorbacks with 3x acolytes??

Thanks in advance!!

I know the vindicare seems awesome, and he is. But I dont think is really worth it tbh, to easy to kill in a meta with so much ignores cover ap3 and S6. Also dont like the idea of a single raider, having a single tank will attract all the fire and not last to long, if the idea is around the mini death star in the raider, then maybe drop a knight for another one and give the list more focus. Either knights or raiders, not both.

Marthike wrote:I would like to make a TAC GK list without allies, I know its not as good but I would prefer it if its GK only.

I modified jy2's list but I am not sure if this is any good.

Coteaz. 100 pts
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino - 189
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino - 189
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino - 189
3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts

Total 1732 pts

I actually really like this list, of course you bleed kill points like there is no tomorrow but if you are not to fussed about that then go for it

I think Purifiers are actually dead in the new meta. MEQ dies so fast now, even more than before, that the extra points you are spending are more often than not going to be wasted. Fearless IMO isn't such a big deal unless you are scoring, so you are really paying for Cleansing Flame, which they'll never survive long enough to use, and an extra Psycannon, which will probably only see a few turns of shooting.

IMO stick with regular Strikes.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I think Purifiers are actually dead in the new meta. MEQ dies so fast now, even more than before, that the extra points you are spending are more often than not going to be wasted. Fearless IMO isn't such a big deal unless you are scoring, so you are really paying for Cleansing Flame, which they'll never survive long enough to use, and an extra Psycannon, which will probably only see a few turns of shooting.

IMO stick with regular Strikes.

But strike squads won't do much other than sit inside the psyback and do nothing. I could swap them for interceptors but for 300 pts for 10 with 2 psycannon and psybolt.

I feel that at least Purifers provide good shooting and counter Assualt. Also if someone focus them my troops and other things survive for longer. Yes it's not gonna compete with wraithnecrons, serpent spam, gun line tau. However, it's pretty good with 3 dread knight, a bunch of guns and some Purifers to protect my troops.

 Marthike wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I think Purifiers are actually dead in the new meta. MEQ dies so fast now, even more than before, that the extra points you are spending are more often than not going to be wasted. Fearless IMO isn't such a big deal unless you are scoring, so you are really paying for Cleansing Flame, which they'll never survive long enough to use, and an extra Psycannon, which will probably only see a few turns of shooting.

IMO stick with regular Strikes.

But strike squads won't do much other than sit inside the psyback and do nothing. I could swap them for interceptors but for 300 pts for 10 with 2 psycannon and psybolt.

I feel that at least Purifers provide good shooting and counter Assualt. Also if someone focus them my troops and other things survive for longer. Yes it's not gonna compete with wraithnecrons, serpent spam, gun line tau. However, it's pretty good with 3 dread knight, a bunch of guns and some Purifers to protect my troops.

Why are Strikes going to sit inside a Psyback and do nothing? That is only the case if you choose the take that path, so that's not much of an argument to be fair.

As far as shooting goes, Purifiers only get one Psycannon more than Strikes per 5 men, but Strikes get more men, so their shooting potential against most opponents isn't that significantly greater. As for counter-assault, (a) it's not necessary in 6th edition and a lot of the top lists out there don't carry any, and (b) most things in the GK army including Strikes are decent enough at counter-assault, Purifiers just ramp it up for full on assault, which again is not a route GK should be pursuing.

I'm also not sure how you think admitting you cannot compete any of the top builds is supposed to convince me, genuinely. How does that argument help you? I also don't get why you think you need Purifiers in a list with 3 Dreadknights.

The problem is as well you are looking at the situation purely from an offensive stand point. But that's just not enough. 6th is s killy that if you can't stay on the board you are going to lose. Strikes and Purifiers die just the same. This was never a problem before because (a) MEQs weren't hard to kill but not easy either, and (b) Purifiers brought anti-horde which was golden in the meta of mass infantry. However the Heldrake and to an extent Tau changed that. AP3 and ignores cover is everywhere, making MEQs fold like wet paper, and with the Drake flying around there is less and less infantry hordes in competitive lists nowadays. And even then when Purifiers were useful, you still didn't SPAM them as the Dreadknight partly did their jobs for them; you usually just took the one squad to multi-charge and flame some hordes.

What all this amounts to is paying extra points for Purifiers that die just as quick, have less bodies to soak up that death, and have less of a role to fill in the game. I think it will take another meta change to bring Purifiers back to the forefront again.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Marthike wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I think Purifiers are actually dead in the new meta. MEQ dies so fast now, even more than before, that the extra points you are spending are more often than not going to be wasted. Fearless IMO isn't such a big deal unless you are scoring, so you are really paying for Cleansing Flame, which they'll never survive long enough to use, and an extra Psycannon, which will probably only see a few turns of shooting.

IMO stick with regular Strikes.

But strike squads won't do much other than sit inside the psyback and do nothing. I could swap them for interceptors but for 300 pts for 10 with 2 psycannon and psybolt.

I feel that at least Purifers provide good shooting and counter Assualt. Also if someone focus them my troops and other things survive for longer. Yes it's not gonna compete with wraithnecrons, serpent spam, gun line tau. However, it's pretty good with 3 dread knight, a bunch of guns and some Purifers to protect my troops.

Why are Strikes going to sit inside a Psyback and do nothing? That is only the case if you choose the take that path, so that's not much of an argument to be fair.

As far as shooting goes, Purifiers only get one Psycannon more than Strikes per 5 men, but Strikes get more men, so their shooting potential against most opponents isn't that significantly greater. As for counter-assault, (a) it's not necessary in 6th edition and a lot of the top lists out there don't carry any, and (b) most things in the GK army including Strikes are decent enough at counter-assault, Purifiers just ramp it up for full on assault, which again is not a route GK should be pursuing.

I'm also not sure how you think admitting you cannot compete any of the top builds is supposed to convince me, genuinely. How does that argument help you? I also don't get why you think you need Purifiers in a list with 3 Dreadknights.

The problem is as well you are looking at the situation purely from an offensive stand point. But that's just not enough. 6th is s killy that if you can't stay on the board you are going to lose. Strikes and Purifiers die just the same. This was never a problem before because (a) MEQs weren't hard to kill but not easy either, and (b) Purifiers brought anti-horde which was golden in the meta of mass infantry. However the Heldrake and to an extent Tau changed that. AP3 and ignores cover is everywhere, making MEQs fold like wet paper, and with the Drake flying around there is less and less infantry hordes in competitive lists nowadays. And even then when Purifiers were useful, you still didn't SPAM them as the Dreadknight partly did their jobs for them; you usually just took the one squad to multi-charge and flame some hordes.

What all this amounts to is paying extra points for Purifiers that die just as quick, have less bodies to soak up that death, and have less of a role to fill in the game. I think it will take another meta change to bring Purifiers back to the forefront again.

What's wrong with purifiers with dread knight, also you keep saying strikes are better what would you suggest I do?

Run 30 strike squads on foot? Since to get 2 psycannon inside a rhino it's cheaper to use Purifers.

Convince you what? All I said was that GK can't compete with the big guys without allies since they are just too expensive and you did not give me a convincing reason, even if I take strikes Gk still can't take compete with necrons etc.

Your telling me to use venerable psydread instead? All you said is how Gk is bad and die easily but gives me no advice on what to pick other than strikes, so I will just use a bunch of strike squads and buy some psyback to back them up?

The Purifers for take up a lot of my points so obviously if I need to change them I can probably make a lot of space for new stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps when purifers were useful they were spammed, 6 units because of their shooting (mostly) Close combat (less).

This is a list that doesn't include Purifers, but I feel, ven-dreads are too expensive.

HQ - Coteaz. 100 pts
EL - Ven-Psydread. 195 pts
EL - Ven-Psydread. 195 pts
EL - Ven-Psydread. 195 pts
TR - 3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
TR - 3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
TR - 3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
TR - 3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
TR - 3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts

 Marthike wrote:
What's wrong with purifiers with dread knight, also you keep saying strikes are better what would you suggest I do?

Run 30 strike squads on foot? Since to get 2 psycannon inside a rhino it's cheaper to use Purifers.

If there are 3 Dreadknights on the board then hordes are toast. Purifiers' main role is anti-horde. So when a better overall unit already has their role filled, there is no reason to take them. That is competitive list building 101.

As for what to do, depends on the list. But Purifier SPAM has been dead since 6th arrived, and the change in meta has only made it worse for MEQs.

Why do you need to get 2 Psycannons in a Rhino? 5 non-scoring MEQs in a Rhino is not a very good choice in the current meta where both are very easy to kill, and when they aren't adding anything that the list doesn't already have, so why bother?

 Marthike wrote:
Convince you what? All I said was that GK can't compete with the big guys without allies since they are just too expensive and you did not give me a convincing reason, even if I take strikes Gk still can't take compete with necrons etc.

You were trying to convince me that Purifiers are good. How could you already have forgotten that?

You also never said GK without allies can't compete with those 3 armies, go read your post again and you'll find that's not at all what you typed. You said the set-up of Purifiers and 3 Dreadknights can't compete with them.

 Marthike wrote:
Your telling me to use venerable psydread instead? All you said is how Gk is bad and die easily but gives me no advice on what to pick other than strikes, so I will just use a bunch of strike squads and buy some psyback to back them up?

What? Where did I say anything about Venerable Psydreads? Seriously man, what's with all the random tangents you are throwing out? No wonder you are finding it hard to follow the conversation.

Also where did I say GKs are bad?

The fact that you are choosing to ignore half of what I said is your problem, not mine. I didn't suggest what to do with Strikes because that is not the topic we are discussing, the discussion was about how Purifiers aren't worth it any more and about how you disagree with that. I used Strikes as a comparative MEQ alternative to comparison with. This doesn't automatically imply that you should put Strikes in your particular list either though.

 Marthike wrote:
ps when purifers were useful they were spammed, 6 units because of their shooting (mostly) Close combat (less).

No, in 5th edition they were spammed. In early 6th they were still useful, but bodies were more important, so they were still taken but not spammed; usually just one squad to have Cleansing Flame around.

Assume less and read more. Your total response is rife with assumptions based on things I never even mentioned and you forgot at one point what we were talking about. You also have put alot of words in my mouth, and I really don't get half of your post.

As for your list, you obviously want to talk about it, so let's talk about it.

The Purifiers I have covered. Don't know why you would want to change them to Venerable Dreads either, one of the definitions of wasted points in this edition.

Henchmen are fine, but not the way you have them set-up. Pretty much what happens to your current set-up is tank blows up, half of your tiny squads die, and the rest either get mopped up or flee the board. Troops need to be so much sturdier in the current 6th ed meta. Make the squads bigger, maybe throw in some Crusaders here and there to make sure Drakes etc don't mop up whole squads. the key to remember is if Henchmen are you sole Troops then you need to build the list around them to make sure they can last and win. I think maybe some Terminators or Paladins might complement your list surprisingly well, but as I said earlier, I'm still working on getting my own pure GK list to work, so I can't say for sure. What I do know though is that I won't be taking Purifiers.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Marthike wrote:
What's wrong with purifiers with dread knight, also you keep saying strikes are better what would you suggest I do?

Run 30 strike squads on foot? Since to get 2 psycannon inside a rhino it's cheaper to use Purifers.

If there are 3 Dreadknights on the board then hordes are toast. Purifiers' main role is anti-horde. So when a better overall unit already has their role filled, there is no reason to take them. That is competitive list building 101.

As for what to do, depends on the list. But Purifier SPAM has been dead since 6th arrived, and the change in meta has only made it worse for MEQs.

Why do you need to get 2 Psycannons in a Rhino? 5 non-scoring MEQs in a Rhino is not a very good choice in the current meta where both are very easy to kill, and when they aren't adding anything that the list doesn't already have, so why bother?

 Marthike wrote:
Convince you what? All I said was that GK can't compete with the big guys without allies since they are just too expensive and you did not give me a convincing reason, even if I take strikes Gk still can't take compete with necrons etc.

You were trying to convince me that Purifiers are good. How could you already have forgotten that?

You also never said GK without allies can't compete with those 3 armies, go read your post again and you'll find that's not at all what you typed. You said the set-up of Purifiers and 3 Dreadknights can't compete with them.

 Marthike wrote:
Your telling me to use venerable psydread instead? All you said is how Gk is bad and die easily but gives me no advice on what to pick other than strikes, so I will just use a bunch of strike squads and buy some psyback to back them up?

What? Where did I say anything about Venerable Psydreads? Seriously man, what's with all the random tangents you are throwing out? No wonder you are finding it hard to follow the conversation.

Also where did I say GKs are bad?

The fact that you are choosing to ignore half of what I said is your problem, not mine. I didn't suggest what to do with Strikes because that is not the topic we are discussing, the discussion was about how Purifiers aren't worth it any more and about how you disagree with that. I used Strikes as a comparative MEQ alternative to comparison with. This doesn't automatically imply that you should put Strikes in your particular list either though.

 Marthike wrote:
ps when purifers were useful they were spammed, 6 units because of their shooting (mostly) Close combat (less).

No, in 5th edition they were spammed. In early 6th they were still useful, but bodies were more important, so they were still taken but not spammed; usually just one squad to have Cleansing Flame around.

Assume less and read more. Your total response is rife with assumptions based on things I never even mentioned and you forgot at one point what we were talking about. You also have put alot of words in my mouth, and I really don't get half of your post.

As for your list, you obviously want to talk about it, so let's talk about it.

The Purifiers I have covered. Don't know why you would want to change them to Venerable Dreads either, one of the definitions of wasted points in this edition.

Henchmen are fine, but not the way you have them set-up. Pretty much what happens to your current set-up is tank blows up, half of your tiny squads die, and the rest either get mopped up or flee the board. Troops need to be so much sturdier in the current 6th ed meta. Make the squads bigger, maybe throw in some Crusaders here and there to make sure Drakes etc don't mop up whole squads. the key to remember is if Henchmen are you sole Troops then you need to build the list around them to make sure they can last and win. I think maybe some Terminators or Paladins might complement your list surprisingly well, but as I said earlier, I'm still working on getting my own pure GK list to work, so I can't say for sure. What I do know though is that I won't be taking Purifiers.

To be very honest, I never said purifers were good, they were the only things left compared to all the others things in the codex. I know MEQ is bad when they are that expensive but thats all GK have, I can't do anything but to use them, which is why i choose acolytes.

I choose 2 psycannon because they are the best gun the GK has, the more the better and i don't think that has changed at all in 6th ed.

Purifiers are good, their extra gun easily makes up for their points, compared to strikes and interceptors they all are pretty much the same, I admit that a foot army of strikes provide alot more bodies but like you said they dont work because of all the ap3 and helldrake so thats why I want a rhino to at least give them maybe a little more survivability.

I was trying to talk about my GK list being not competitive.

All you said was this and that is bad, so obviously that implies somethings else must be better so whats left are ven-dreads, dreads (can't use because i have dreadknights), stormraven (which i forgot when I posted my new list), interceptors, paladins (but I chosen to go with coteaz).

It would be helpful if you can tell me whats good or whats bad because i know everything you said, i know they are not worth their points i know they die easy, I know i should take more bodies (but I feel strikes die just as quick and also not worth the points so i chosen henchmen). I posted my list is because i want to talk about it, if I want to know about purifers i will ask if they are still good, which i have done few days ago.

Your logic and my logic is very different, how you think is defiantly not how i think so I will just stick to my new list and talk about stormravens:

HQ - Coteaz. 100 pts
FA - Stormraven. 205 pts
FA - Stormraven. 205 pts
FA - Stormraven. 205 pts
TR - 3x Henchmen - Psyback - 62
TR - 3x Henchmen - Psyback - 62
TR - 3x Henchmen - Psyback - 62
TR - 3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
TR - 3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts

3 henchmen units will start the game in the storm ravens and the other 2 will go in reserve or in psybacks depends on what i am facing. If the stromravens can survive to turn 5 I can drop off my troops and capture objectives. Stormraven will give my troops the protection they need for them to survive till the end while the rest does the killing. Maybe i should get rid of 1 stormraven and buff the other stormravens and the henchmen squads.

 Marthike wrote:
I would like to make a TAC GK list without allies, I know its not as good but I would prefer it if its GK only.

I modified jy2's list but I am not sure if this is any good.

Coteaz. 100 pts
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino - 189
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino - 189
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino - 189
3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts

Total 1732 pts

Yup. It's good. It can definitely compete against most of the lists out there.

 Marthike wrote:

HQ - Coteaz. 100 pts
EL - Ven-Psydread. 195 pts
EL - Ven-Psydread. 195 pts
EL - Ven-Psydread. 195 pts
TR - 3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
TR - 3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
TR - 3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
TR - 3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
TR - 3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts

I'd stick with the purifiers. Sure purifiers are easier to kill nowadays due to heldrakes. However, dreads are even that much easier to kill due to the prevalence of S7-spam. Also, purifiers takes much more firepower to kill. First of all, you need to kill the transport. Then you need to kill the fearless guys inside.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
If there are 3 Dreadknights on the board then hordes are toast. Purifiers' main role is anti-horde. So when a better overall unit already has their role filled, there is no reason to take them. That is competitive list building 101.

Purifiers are an every-man unit. They can be used to kill tanks, horde and other MEQ's. Don't discount them. If they get close, Cleansing Flame is a threat to hordes, force weapons a threat to normal MEQ's and psycannons/hammer a threat to mech. Their flexibility is what makes them so good. And now that they aren't scoring (at least not in these list), you can totally use them as sacrificial units.

As for what to do, depends on the list. But Purifier SPAM has been dead since 6th arrived, and the change in meta has only made it worse for MEQs.

Why do you need to get 2 Psycannons in a Rhino? 5 non-scoring MEQs in a Rhino is not a very good choice in the current meta where both are very easy to kill, and when they aren't adding anything that the list doesn't already have, so why bother?

This isn't a purifier-spam army. Without them being scoring, you can now play them much more aggressively. I'd rather my opponent spend the resources to kill off my purifiers than to take out the mobility of my scoring units (and the scoring units themselves).

The list works because you've got high-priority threats - purifiers and dreadknights - who are also non-essential sacrificial units. So while you are busy killing them, henchmen in psybacks are taking objectives.

In essence, this is my MTO strategy and Positional Dominance philosophy. I throw a bunch of high-priority, non-essential threats at you to keep you pre-occupied and then win on objectives. You can basically substitute the purifiers/dreadknights in the list with my flyrants+Doom in my tyranid list or the wraiths in my necron list.

Do you not find that 15 T3 5+AS scoring bodies die too much Jim?

I understand what you are saying, but I still think there are much better options in the Codex to fill those roles. I'd rather have 3 more threats for your MTO strategy that also don't clash role wise with the Dreadknight, who is also an every man's unit. As to what in particular, I have yet to find out as I'm still working on some lists, but I'm sure there are much better answer out there than Purifiers, mostly because the Grey Knight book is saturated with threat units.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Do you not find that 15 T3 5+AS scoring bodies die too much Jim?

It takes resources to kill them. First you need to kill the rhino. Then the guys inside. Now try doing that when you've also got 3 dreadknights and 2 other units of purifiers heading your way.

Purifiers can also survive if you spread them out. However, what usually happens is the rhino is wrecked and then you can hide them behind the rhino where the opponent will not have LOS to them.

Also, I view all my non-scoring units as non-essential. That means they are a sacrificial unit. Any firepower you divert to them means less shots at my scoring units. I don't mind the trade-off since I have a lot of "non-essential" threats.

 jy2 wrote:
It takes resources to kill them. First you need to kill the rhino. Then the guys inside. Now try doing that when you've also got 3 dreadknights and 2 other units of purifiers heading your way.

Purifiers can also survive if you spread them out. However, what usually happens is the rhino is wrecked and then you can hide them behind the rhino where the opponent will not have LOS to them.

Also, I view all my non-scoring units as non-essential. That means they are a sacrificial unit. Any firepower you divert to them means less shots at my scoring units. I don't mind the trade-off since I have a lot of "non-essential" threats.

Maybe it's a difference of meta that causes a different outcome across the pond, but in my experiences Rhinos blow up more than they die to Hull Points. So those Purifiers have nowhere to hide, and half of those T3 5+AS infantry die in the blast. Sure even at a recent enough tournament one of our ETC players tried out a list almost identical to yours and ended suffering a heavy loss to a 12yr old who only played casually, despite the massive experience gap, because the kid just shot the transports and blew them up killing the guys, and then went to ground on his own objective.

Obviously anecdotal evidence counts for little, but it does demonstrate how fickle such a list can be. I prefer building a list so fate is never taken out of my hands.

And then when you put an experienced player against that, I would imagine that they wouldn't be overly fooled by all the threats and would know that taking out those Troops means he definitely can't lose. It's not that I think the whole MTO idea won't work, in fact I think it's a great idea, but I just think relying solely on that to keep 15 Henchmen alive seems a little too risky.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I understand what you are saying, but I still think there are much better options in the Codex to fill those roles. I'd rather have 3 more threats for your MTO strategy that also don't clash role wise with the Dreadknight, who is also an every man's unit. As to what in particular, I have yet to find out as I'm still working on some lists, but I'm sure there are much better answer out there than Purifiers, mostly because the Grey Knight book is saturated with threat units.

I like psyfleman dreads, but they just die too easily nowadays. The trend currently in competitive play is S6/7 spam - necron teslas, mechdar, tau missile-spam, etc. Dreads die just too easily, much more easily than 5-man units in a box. The "venerable" part is practically useless since its mainly glances that kill them. I have not had a dread survive in any of my GK games so far.

Strikers are troops and so take up slots for henchmen-spam (or as you call them, Imperial weaklings ). However, the fact that they are scoring poses a double-whammy. You can't be as aggressive playing them and now, there is more incentive to kill them whereas with purifiers, your opponent needs to make a decision - should I kill a threat or should I go after the troops instead?

Terminators/paladins are just too expensive and would require a redesign on this entire list.

To me, other than to go for allies, purifiers still make a lot of sense. They can do everything well enough and now that they aren't scoring, a burden has been lifted. Now you can play them without fear of losing your scoring units.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Maybe it's a difference of meta that causes a different outcome across the pond, but in my experiences Rhinos blow up more than they die to Hull Points. So those Purifiers have nowhere to hide, and half of those T3 5+AS infantry die in the blast. Sure even at a recent enough tournament one of our ETC players tried out a list almost identical to yours and ended suffering a heavy loss to a 12yr old who only played casually, despite the massive experience gap, because the kid just shot the transports and blew them up killing the guys, and then went to ground on his own objective.

Obviously anecdotal evidence counts for little, but it does demonstrate how fickle such a list can be. I prefer building a list so fate is never taken out of my hands.

And then when you put an experienced player against that, I would imagine that they wouldn't be overly fooled by all the threats and would know that taking out those Troops means he definitely can't lose. It's not that I think the whole MTO idea won't work, in fact I think it's a great idea, but I just think relying solely on that to keep 15 Henchmen alive seems a little too risky.

Sounds like the kid got kind of lucky. That happens sometimes. You can be much more experienced and have a much better list, but sometimes, it just isn't meant to be (your game, that is). Explosions do happen on occassion and depending on the army (i.e. if the opponent was spamming lascannons/meltas or just normal S6-8 shooting), however, with the current trend (and of course, depending on your local meta), I'm seeing wrecks are more common.

As for henchmen troops, you either like it or you don't. This type of list isn't the only competitive pure GK list. However, it is one of them. And the trick to make them stay alive is to run GK's MTO-style. Throw a bunch of other higher-priority GK threats so that your opponent doesn't really have the resources to go after your troops.

Of course, GK on the whole isn't as competitive as it used to be. This type of list is still susceptible to the stronger necron/tau/eldar top tournament builds.

BTW, if my opponent goes after my troops, that's fine by me. They are giving my offensive units more time to kill their army. It's like my wraithwing necron list. Fire at my wraiths and I will eventually win on objectives. Try to take down my flyers and my wraiths will get into combat and kill your units. Make no mistake, the dreadknights and purifiers are a real threat to your army. Ignore them at your own peril. It's a catch-22 situation.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marthike wrote:
HQ - Coteaz. 100 pts
FA - Stormraven. 205 pts
FA - Stormraven. 205 pts
FA - Stormraven. 205 pts
TR - 3x Henchmen - Psyback - 62
TR - 3x Henchmen - Psyback - 62
TR - 3x Henchmen - Psyback - 62
TR - 3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
TR - 3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts

3 henchmen units will start the game in the storm ravens and the other 2 will go in reserve or in psybacks depends on what i am facing. If the stromravens can survive to turn 5 I can drop off my troops and capture objectives. Stormraven will give my troops the protection they need for them to survive till the end while the rest does the killing. Maybe i should get rid of 1 stormraven and buff the other stormravens and the henchmen squads.

Not a big fan of this list. A lot of armies don't have the tools to deal with stormravens and so will just ignore them, thus focusing on the rest of the army. You've just made target priority much easier for them. And while GK ravens are good against psykers, the're not going to do much against an army with a lot of bodies. I'm not just talking about hordes, but normal foot lists as well. What this list will excel at is in dealing the tanks and more elitist armies.

Also, you can use movement of your army to limit their (the stormraven's) movements.

IMO, too many ravens unbalances your list. I wouldn't go with more than 2 ravens. Instead, IMO you need more boots on the ground.

 jy2 wrote:
I like psyfleman dreads, but they just die too easily nowadays. The trend currently in competitive play is S6/7 spam - necron teslas, mechdar, tau missile-spam, etc. Dreads die just too easily, much more easily than 5-man units in a box. The "venerable" part is practically useless since its mainly glances that kill them. I have not had a dread survive in any of my GK games so far.

I agree 100%. There seems to be some confusion here though, I have never once advocated Dreads of any kind. Marthike for some reason randomly started talking about them as if I had suggested them to him and then put them in his list, but I had never even mentioned them at all, so that might have caused some confusion, but I never would suggest them, and especially not Venerables.

 jy2 wrote:
Strikers are troops and so take up slots for henchmen-spam (or as you call them, Imperial weaklings ). However, the fact that they are scoring poses a double-whammy. You can't be as aggressive playing them and now, there is more incentive to kill them whereas with purifiers, your opponent needs to make a decision - should I kill a threat or should I go after the troops instead?

I have to admit, that's actually a good argument for Purifiers over Strikes that I hadn't thought of.

 jy2 wrote:
Explosions do happen on occassion and depending on the army (i.e. if the opponent was spamming lascannons/meltas or just normal S6-8 shooting), however, with the current trend (and of course, depending on your local meta), I'm seeing wrecks are more common.

Yeah definitely must be a meta thing 'cause over here we see explosions more often than wrecks. Just goes to show none of us know it all though right

 jy2 wrote:
As for henchmen troops, you either like it or you don't. This type of list isn't the only competitive pure GK list. However, it is one of them. And the trick to make them stay alive is to run GK's MTO-style. Throw a bunch of other higher-priority GK threats so that your opponent doesn't really have the resources to go after your troops.

I like Henchmen, though I am a bit loathe to take them over Guard allies these days. If I did though I would take bigger squads. Don't get me wrong with what I said earlier; it's the fact there are so little Henchmen in that list that makes me uneasy, not the fact that they are Henchmen.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, if my opponent goes after my troops, that's fine by me. They are giving my offensive units more time to kill their army. It's like my wraithwing necron list. Fire at my wraiths and I will eventually win on objectives. Try to take down my flyers and my wraiths will get into combat and kill your units. Make no mistake, the dreadknights and purifiers are a real threat to your army. Ignore them at your own peril. It's a catch-22 situation.

While I get where you are at, the issue I had with the list above was that unlike your Crons and Nids, it wouldn't take that much of an investment to deal with 15 Henchmen in 5 AV11 vehicles, not in this meta. I reckon you could probably do it piecemeal while still focusing a lot of fire into the Knights. This is all theory of course, but it just seems to me that MTO works better if the Troops are a bit more resilient so as to allow the threat units enough time to be sure that they can wipe out the enemy army, because if you lose your Troops the enemy only needs to keep one of his alive to win the game.

BTW regarding the Raven list which I had liked more than the other two previously, I never thought of how the Ravens being so hard could be a downside to the list. Very good point and something I never would have thought of. Just goes to show there's always more to learn.

Next year I'm planning to be in the San Diego area for Comic Con, so I'll have to swing down to Frontline Gaming's neck of the woods and we'll have to back track the meta just a bit to test this all out Jim

Congrats Sudojoe! 2000 posts.....woot!

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
I like psyfleman dreads, but they just die too easily nowadays. The trend currently in competitive play is S6/7 spam - necron teslas, mechdar, tau missile-spam, etc. Dreads die just too easily, much more easily than 5-man units in a box. The "venerable" part is practically useless since its mainly glances that kill them. I have not had a dread survive in any of my GK games so far.

I agree 100%. There seems to be some confusion here though, I have never once advocated Dreads of any kind. Marthike for some reason randomly started talking about them as if I had suggested them to him and then put them in his list, but I had never even mentioned them at all, so that might have caused some confusion, but I never would suggest them, and especially not Venerables.

I was mainly cycling through a list of potential substitutes for the purifiers, based mainly off of Marthike's list that he posted. It is by no means an extensive list. I apologize if I implied that you were an advocate of such a potential replacement.

 jy2 wrote:
Explosions do happen on occassion and depending on the army (i.e. if the opponent was spamming lascannons/meltas or just normal S6-8 shooting), however, with the current trend (and of course, depending on your local meta), I'm seeing wrecks are more common.

Yeah definitely must be a meta thing 'cause over here we see explosions more often than wrecks. Just goes to show none of us know it all though right

Yeah, this is definitely meta-dependent. In areas where people are still running lots of AP1/2 AT, explosions are more likely. My perspective is from the overall US competitive tournament scene. Here, the competitive meta is more dominated by S6/7 non-AP 1/2 shooting - grey knight psycannon/psybolt-spam, necron tesla-spam, eldar mechdar/spiders/war walkers, tau missile-spam, daemon Tzeentch herald shooting, marine autocannon/missile launchers, etc. Different strokes for different folks.

 jy2 wrote:
As for henchmen troops, you either like it or you don't. This type of list isn't the only competitive pure GK list. However, it is one of them. And the trick to make them stay alive is to run GK's MTO-style. Throw a bunch of other higher-priority GK threats so that your opponent doesn't really have the resources to go after your troops.

I like Henchmen, though I am a bit loathe to take them over Guard allies these days. If I did though I would take bigger squads. Don't get me wrong with what I said earlier; it's the fact there are so little Henchmen in that list that makes me uneasy, not the fact that they are Henchmen.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, if my opponent goes after my troops, that's fine by me. They are giving my offensive units more time to kill their army. It's like my wraithwing necron list. Fire at my wraiths and I will eventually win on objectives. Try to take down my flyers and my wraiths will get into combat and kill your units. Make no mistake, the dreadknights and purifiers are a real threat to your army. Ignore them at your own peril. It's a catch-22 situation.

While I get where you are at, the issue I had with the list above was that unlike your Crons and Nids, it wouldn't take that much of an investment to deal with 15 Henchmen in 5 AV11 vehicles, not in this meta. I reckon you could probably do it piecemeal while still focusing a lot of fire into the Knights. This is all theory of course, but it just seems to me that MTO works better if the Troops are a bit more resilient so as to allow the threat units enough time to be sure that they can wipe out the enemy army, because if you lose your Troops the enemy only needs to keep one of his alive to win the game.

BTW regarding the Raven list which I had liked more than the other two previously, I never thought of how the Ravens being so hard could be a downside to the list. Very good point and something I never would have thought of. Just goes to show there's always more to learn.

No worries. It's just an inherent downside if you want to go MTO-GK style without allies. Necrons have troops in flyers. Tyranids have momma bugs who poop out baby bugs. Eldar have jetbikes and troops in wave serpents. What do the Imperials have? Just units in rhinos. That's it. No wonder they are losing the battle against the xenos. MEQ armies will always have this weakness short of running paladins. You either take the more expensive strikers who are somewhat expensive (compared to other 5-man MSU troops in other codices) or you take the cheap henchmen. Neither are as good as their xenos counterparts, but short of taking allies, we will always have this problem with our troops. Now if they are going to kill my troops, I'd rather they kill only 62-pts of my army that don't really contribute much to my offense rather than 150-pts that also don't really contribute much to my offense.

Of course there is nothing wrong with taking 5-10-man henchmen units.

Next year I'm planning to be in the San Diego area for Comic Con, so I'll have to swing down to Frontline Gaming's neck of the woods and we'll have to back track the meta just a bit to test this all out Jim

Cool. If you're in our neck of the woods (northen California), just give me a PM and I'll show you around. We can visit Reece & the gang at Frontline. You're going to be busy though. There's definitely a lot to check out, both up here in NorCal and down south in SoCal if you're interested in sight-seeing.

 jy2 wrote:
Yeah, this is definitely meta-dependent. In areas where people are still running lots of AP1/2 AT, explosions are more likely. My perspective is from the overall US competitive tournament scene. Here, the competitive meta is more dominated by S6/7 non-AP 1/2 shooting - grey knight psycannon/psybolt-spam, necron tesla-spam, eldar mechdar/spiders/war walkers, tau missile-spam, daemon Tzeentch herald shooting, marine autocannon/missile launchers, etc. Different strokes for different folks.

Well it's the same stuff here, just you have in such concentrated quantities that you usually are rolling up multiple pens, and also the amount of Melta in our meta never subsided too much.

Not gonna quote every thing but you sure know your stuff jy2

From what you said, purifers are definatly good enough to be included in a list (I would like to build that GK list because i used to have purifer spam and already have 2 dreadknights so it ill be easy for me to just use those models)

About the storm raven, do you think 1 storm raven can work?

switch 1 unit of purifers with a strom raven? I dont own any strom raven not sure if its worth it, I feel its not gonna give me that much of a advantage to justify it, it will keep 1 of my troops safe, and provide anti air fire power, which i am lacking a bit.

The prolem most army will have atleast 1 anti air gun (agies quad) or 1-2 that can be used for anti air. I just dont know if it will draw enough fire away from my other units and if someone has some dedicated anti air and I have 1 storm raven that gives him a easy target.

The more I talk about it the more i dont think it will work.

Coteaz roll on divination so I will try to give some of my units rerolls to hit. I guess he has to be inside one of the rhinos.

Now I also want to make a paladin list because i also own a paladin army and dont want them to go to waste and not be used.

I say your list jy2 (the one before greyzilla, really like it), i like to keep my list pure GK, atleast i want to try and if it doesn't work out well i will jump to allies.

If i go:

HQ - Draigo. 275 pts
TR - 10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, Apothecary, Banner, Stave. 750 pts
TR - 1x Soladin - Hammer. 55 pts
TR - 1x Soladin - Hammer. 55 pts
TR - 1x Soladin - Hammer. 55 pts
TR - 1x Soladin - Hammer. 55 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts

Still got 35 points left which i might give the dreadknight a sword and MC a few psycannons. This is actully just the old deathstar thing that is nothing new i think.

That list has no fire support but i guess thats how paladins work, Deep strike and kill as much as they can. 2 threats and a mega threat. Also you have said that dreads are not viable in the age of S6/S7 spam I will leave them at home then.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Yeah I agree, problem is I don't like Henchmen that much, as IG do their job better.

id disagree, bolter henchmen at 5 pts, with ld 8,while guardsmen only have a sgt with ld8 and lasguns.

If your job is to stand back and do nothing, or get guard allies in, guards men are ok. But henchmen with bolters are a pretty strong troops choice for the pts

 easysauce wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Yeah I agree, problem is I don't like Henchmen that much, as IG do their job better.

id disagree, bolter henchmen at 5 pts, with ld 8,while guardsmen only have a sgt with ld8 and lasguns.

If your job is to stand back and do nothing, or get guard allies in, guards men are ok. But henchmen with bolters are a pretty strong troops choice for the pts

They're not though. They are too flimsy to really take the fight to anyone and have no surefire way to mitigate it. The reason Henchmen are being taken in lists is to have scoring units, plain and simple, because they are much cheaper than MEQs and in the current meta MEQs die too easily. I highly doubt anybody is taking Bolter Henchmen for the purpose of a fire-fight.

With that in mind, think about Guardsmen. They have their orders to boost their abilities, they have to unique ability to adapt their squad sizes based on the mission at hand, and can bring the long ranged firepower that GK desperately lack. Having them also opens up other avenues for allies such as Vendettas.

So this is what I was thinking for 1850

Draigo
Coteaz

10 pallys, 4 psycannon, stave, banner
solodin
4 acolytes, boltguns
4 acolytes, boltguns

Dreadknight, incinerator, teleporter
Dreadknight, incinerator, teleporter
Dreadknight, incinerator, teleporter

Its the last tournie of the year so I want to bust draigo and co out for one last hoorah. I want to fill with threats to take as much heat of the paladin star as possible, so figured 3 knights in my opponents backyard, while draigo is moving up should give distractions.

Henchman and solo reserve for objectives.

Let me know what you think

No Hammers in the Paladins?

My initial reaction was, 'what, only 4 Troops?' because as usual I forgot Draigo's Grand Strategy.

The main issue you will have are flyers. They may be other bad match-ups too, but I'm too tired right now to think of them.

 tuiman wrote:
So this is what I was thinking for 1850

Draigo
Coteaz

10 pallys, 4 psycannon, stave, banner
solodin
4 acolytes, boltguns
4 acolytes, boltguns

Dreadknight, incinerator, teleporter
Dreadknight, incinerator, teleporter
Dreadknight, incinerator, teleporter

Its the last tournie of the year so I want to bust draigo and co out for one last hoorah. I want to fill with threats to take as much heat of the paladin star as possible, so figured 3 knights in my opponents backyard, while draigo is moving up should give distractions.

Henchman and solo reserve for objectives.

Let me know what you think

All you got differently to my list is coteaz and acolytes, those acolytes are gonna die even if you reserve them. Why dont you just have 2 more solodins, I know that you want to use him to give psychic powers to your paladin deathstar unit but only have 1 solodin and 2 unit of acolytes is just asking to be focused and killed, at with 3 solodin you will have a bit more resilience.

Lets hope you dont face ap 2 large blast

 Marthike wrote:
I modified jy2's list but I am not sure if this is any good.

Coteaz. 100 pts
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino - 189
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino - 189
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino - 189
3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Melta, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
3x Henchmen - Plasma, Psyback - 72
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts
HS - Dreadknight - Incinerator - teleporter. 235 pts

Total 1732 pts

I know this list has been discussed to death already, but unless I missed something (quite possible) no one talked about the weird henchmen configuration. 3 henchmen in a razorback, that's common. 3 henchmen but only 1 has a special weapon? That's odd. Why bother with just one special weapon?

Godless-Mimicry wrote:No Hammers in the Paladins?

My initial reaction was, 'what, only 4 Troops?' because as usual I forgot Draigo's Grand Strategy.

The main issue you will have are flyers. They may be other bad match-ups too, but I'm too tired right now to think of them.

Sorry godless, yes there will be hammers, normally 3 hammers, 2 halberds, 3 swords, banner and stave.

I dont bother using stratagy to make the knights scoring, because their main purpose it to be fire magnets and die. My opponent can either target the 3 knights in his face or my 20 point hechman squads sitting out of los on objectives (or in reserve), or my paladins. I normally take scout, give it to the paladins so the psycannons can be in range straight away, or the dreadknights so they can move into a better position to make a better shunting move, I find that works really well.

Agree flyers might be an issue, but hopefully the knights will be in combat T2 and draigo by T3 so the flyers wont have much to shoot at, apart from the hell turkey, you dont see to many flyers around here these days anyway. I think I should be safe enough to just ignore them, or get lucky with the 16 psycannon shots with re-rolls to hit if I have to.

Marthike wrote:

All you got differently to my list is coteaz and acolytes, those acolytes are gonna die even if you reserve them. Why dont you just have 2 more solodins, I know that you want to use him to give psychic powers to your paladin deathstar unit but only have 1 solodin and 2 unit of acolytes is just asking to be focused and killed, at with 3 solodin you will have a bit more resilience.

Lets hope you dont face ap 2 large blast

In previous games, I have managed to put the acolytes on objectives out of los, and they stay there all game. My opponent does not have the resources (hopefully) to deal with a 20 point unit, even if it is scoring, because of the 3 knights and the draigostar moving up in his face.

The 8 acolytes cost only 40 points all up so I cant even exchange them for 1 solo, let alone 2. Its the only thing I can so with the points.