Acidian wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
Ya, the first page is really in need of some fixing again. I think origionally it started as an update guide to people that's been playing GK for a while but now I think I'll redo the thing as a primer or sorts as that's what it's turning into.

Thank you a lot for the help! I think I will do as you sugest and just keep the terminators so I can test them in different ways and see how I like them. I only get 5 in a box, so I will probably go 4 halberds and one sword, as I think you theorycrafted that it was the best combination earlier. Then put the sword on the justicar if running with regular terminators rather than paladins. I only play against friends for the most part, as I work saturdays and can rarely make it to proper tournaments, so competitiveness is not that important. That said, the one I play against the most just got a necron army for testing in sixth, and reading on these forums it does not bode well for me. :3

Regarding the OP, I was not sure how current and up to date it was, as I wasn't sure if it was written with the released rulebook in hand, but when I was reading the thread I noticed you mention that you are still updating the OP.

I have a bunch of black templar troops I can use as proxies as well, then I can buy some more grey knights to replace them next month. I think I will build one strike squad and one purified squad and test stuff out and see what I like the best. Thank you for pointing out that I can get the autocannons from the quad gun in the ADL. Since I need 4 arms and a quad gun as well, I might take a look at the box that contains two bastions and 4 quads, or I might just get the forgeworld variant depending on how expensive it gets.

I will drop the staff, and as learning 6th edition is enough at the moment, I have steered away from psykers and librarians, something I will come back to when I am more comfortable with the rules. I had a 7 hour long game yesterday at the local store just learning the rules again, and we didn't even finish! However, I know a lot of the people there so a lot of time was spent just talking to people dropping by the table we were playing at, and taking some longer breaks as well, but it was still pretty long.

Another game related question, I have a ton of rhinos/razorbacks lying around (sicne my other army is a SoB army) and a landraider crusader from my BT days (I have pretty much given up BT), is there any point using them anymore? Crusader just seems to expensive, especially when we can't assault out of it anymore, and having rhino's in the army seems to just give the enemy a free first blood and people on the forums say first blood is a pretty big deal now. Since you mention that acolytes are good for spamming tanks, I assume you put them in a razorback or chimera? Acolytes seems like an easy way to get scoring units on the table in combination with colteaz, and increasing the number of bodies in the squad shouldn't be too hard if that is what's needed, but at some point it must be better to just get another strike squad?

I also have a techmarine, and I bought him just because I liked the model so much, but never gotten much use out of him. I see you recommend him a bit, but I am not sure how he would fit in the list, isn´t me better if you are using a lot of mech?

A question regarding modeling rather than playing, I really don't like the look of colteaz and am wondering if it would be 'legal' for me to use a similar model, add a hammer to it, but without the eagle? Some helpful GW employee at the store in town told me I could just chop of the eagle from the colteaz model, and I assume he wouldn't have said that if I couldn't use it in tournaments afterwards. I would like to go a step further and use a completely different model as I just don't like the official model very much.

Thank you again for the help, and sorry for all the stupid newbie questions.

Necrons does suck, and if you really get beat too much, let us know and we'll see what we can craft up for you. Incidentially, 2+ armor are kind of good vs necrons actually.

The 1st page is actually fairly up to date. The last update was like just before thanksgiving v1.1 means it's up to date with the latest rule book FAQ essentially.

Black templar proxies are going to be pretty handy in my opinion. One combo I think will work well for GK would be space wolves with nice rune priest power buffs/psy defense and more long fangs for support. Lower on the air support side of things however but it's a good combo especially if your local meta hasn't got too many aircraft yet. Just be careful of baleflamers from chaos.

Alternative place to get AC arms are second hand market sites like puppetzwars. They have them in resin premade and is a bit cheaper than getting more aegis lines.

Rhinos (and even sisters are really fun as allies well in my opinion, I personally run a fun St. Celestine + Justicar Thawn list that I use for friendly games), are still useful and can still work but I'll just preface by saying they are much harder to use to optimum effect now though not that impossible. Just treat them like extra squad member and it'll make alot of sense. An alternative use would be if you say have alot of repressors/immolators to proxy them as razorbacks and use cheap henchmen rhino spam which from the last tourny JY2 went to, still did very well with target saturation. Might need a dreadknight to really shine I think. JY2's opponent used essentially all 3 body henchemen with razorbacks and heavy bolters with psybolts backed up by a DK and psyfle dreads. Having coteaz means you have a good chance to go first so with that much firepower, you should be able to torrent things for first blood quite often. Just remember the new searchlight rules.

The land raider crusader with AC + psybolt is quite useful and still a very fun choice. As others have pointed out, DCA are very good taking advantage of the grenade launchers on it. I personally like to launch those or purifiers out of them as a melee build. Terminators also work.

The techmarine is quite good still in my opinion as either a grenade caddy in an assault unit, and buffing some fire support hiding in ruins with bolster as it'll be a 3+ cover save for like your dreadnaughts to use as a shooting platform. Combine him with like an assault purifier loadout inside the crusader can wreck face pretty much everywhere.

Coteaz model choice is more up to you. I personally like the model but as long as you remember that it will be your army and what you find to be good looking will be the most important rule! Good luck =)

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Problem is DCAs are just as likely to get killed in combat if they don't wipe out the enemy also. They are destined to be a one trick pony that can't perform that one trick unless in open ground, which is why hardly anyone uses them anymore.

For the most part, yes, and I've certainly had my fair share of that happening. I've also wiped Grey Hunter squads down to 2 guys, and then saved the wounds with an attached crusader's storm shield.

I do agree that they're hard to use and prone to getting wiped one way or the other. I also think that, at least for me and my meta, 90 points is a fair price for a fragile unit amidst a sea of 2+ and 3+ save units. I can afford to have one squishy unit.

Of course, the insanity that we saw a year ago where people were building entire armies of nothing but DCA might have been going a little too far.

 sudojoe wrote:


Necrons does suck, and if you really get beat too much, let us know and we'll see what we can craft up for you. Incidentially, 2+ armor are kind of good vs necrons actually.

The 1st page is actually fairly up to date. The last update was like just before thanksgiving v1.1 means it's up to date with the latest rule book FAQ essentially.

Black templar proxies are going to be pretty handy in my opinion. One combo I think will work well for GK would be space wolves with nice rune priest power buffs/psy defense and more long fangs for support. Lower on the air support side of things however but it's a good combo especially if your local meta hasn't got too many aircraft yet. Just be careful of baleflamers from chaos.

Alternative place to get AC arms are second hand market sites like puppetzwars. They have them in resin premade and is a bit cheaper than getting more aegis lines.

Rhinos (and even sisters are really fun as allies well in my opinion, I personally run a fun St. Celestine + Justicar Thawn list that I use for friendly games), are still useful and can still work but I'll just preface by saying they are much harder to use to optimum effect now though not that impossible. Just treat them like extra squad member and it'll make alot of sense. An alternative use would be if you say have alot of repressors/immolators to proxy them as razorbacks and use cheap henchmen rhino spam which from the last tourny JY2 went to, still did very well with target saturation. Might need a dreadknight to really shine I think. JY2's opponent used essentially all 3 body henchemen with razorbacks and heavy bolters with psybolts backed up by a DK and psyfle dreads. Having coteaz means you have a good chance to go first so with that much firepower, you should be able to torrent things for first blood quite often. Just remember the new searchlight rules.

The land raider crusader with AC + psybolt is quite useful and still a very fun choice. As others have pointed out, DCA are very good taking advantage of the grenade launchers on it. I personally like to launch those or purifiers out of them as a melee build. Terminators also work.

The techmarine is quite good still in my opinion as either a grenade caddy in an assault unit, and buffing some fire support hiding in ruins with bolster as it'll be a 3+ cover save for like your dreadnaughts to use as a shooting platform. Combine him with like an assault purifier loadout inside the crusader can wreck face pretty much everywhere.

Coteaz model choice is more up to you. I personally like the model but as long as you remember that it will be your army and what you find to be good looking will be the most important rule! Good luck =)

I will have to check that puppetswars page and see what bits they have, but right now I think I am going to get a buddy inn on the box that contains the two bastions and 4 ADF, as I want to test and see how bastions works as well now.

This is what I ended up doing with colteaz: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/95293/IMAG0199.jpg
Don't want to stray too far off topic, but I just used a BT sword brethren with a paladin head (I always use helmets when I can, think gw heads look like crap) and a hammer from the regular squad box, then filed off the templar mark on the shoulderpad. This was my first time spraying white, and I must have messed something up because I have lost too much detail on the plastic pieces, and there are some strange black lines on them as well. Seems like I used too much paint, but I used about the same amount as I do on my black spray. Still thought it went pretty well as my first remodeling job.

Since I kept my terminators I am going to try and test them from my land raider crusader and am actually pretty psyched about doing it.

Now I just need to figure out if I want hurricane bolters on my raven or not, went with melta and las as my other options. I noticed you can put a dreadnaught in this thing, but don't know if that is a good idea or not, it is a fun idea though.

Don't attach your dread to the stormraven. GK Dreads should be shooting every moment they can. The problem here is that he cant shoot from the back of the raven, and sadly, pretty much any build of the Dread is outshined by the psyfleman. The only other build I would consider is asscannon+TLAC.

I'm fixing on buying some space wolf allies lately now to make my lists more all comers and I'm debating on basically a GK shooting line with space wolf psyker defense with rune priests.

one of them probably will be my JAWS priest and the other a divination buffer for some long fang squad. Probably a cheap grey hunter squad in a drop pod along with priest (or just have priest hang out in midfield behind LOS) as well as lone wolf deep striking somewhere.

GK to bring storm raven, DK and psyfledread. coteaz, 1 squad of purifiers, and then shooty strikes with some shooty henchmen.

Sounds good on paper so far but really hard to fit in enough stuff at 1500 points. As I'm still shopping for models, think I'm better off with some missle fangs or like multi-meltas or las cannons better for the long fangs? And I'm still not sure what to do with the lone wolf. Never ran one before and now sure how to best equip him. It'd really change what model I shop for if I can pre-determine wargear.

Another delimia I'm having is my GK + necron army seems to be mostly necron assault (d.lord + wraiths, min war squad + doomscythe and night scythe). Thinking of trying something with necron shooting and GK assault. Anyone find that one works better or the other? (thinking like modrak assault + shunting DK along with crons immortal shooting via tesla or is heavy gauss better? arrg)

Hi there guys, what do you think is better on a 2000pt list, a grand master, or an ordo xenos inquisitor and a dreadknight,

the list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/492408.page

the grand master would make the paladins scoring (which is huge), but they would lose precience and a dreadknight always comes handy. help!!

I haven't seen or hear about GK players deep striking their Strike Squads a lot. Is there a reason or major downside to this? It seems like a great way to get your strike squads into 24" gun range right away.

I was toying with a list @1850 of:

Grandmaster 2x servo skulls
4 Strike Squads
2 DKs with teleporters and heavy incinerators
1 Storm Raven

I could start with DKs and 1 strike squad on board, and deep strike 3 Strikes turn 2, along with shunting the DK's at the same time. Seemed like a solid idea to me, but everyone seems to favor rhinos or footslogging.

does the grandmaster starts on board?

 serotol wrote:
does the grandmaster starts on board?

Unfortunately yes, as I would probably want to use psychic communion just to be safe. Would be better if he was deep striking though.

 Kohala wrote:
I haven't seen or hear about GK players deep striking their Strike Squads a lot. Is there a reason or major downside to this? It seems like a great way to get your strike squads into 24" gun range right away.

I was toying with a list @1850 of:

Grandmaster 2x servo skulls
4 Strike Squads
2 DKs with teleporters and heavy incinerators
1 Storm Raven

I could start with DKs and 1 strike squad on board, and deep strike 3 Strikes turn 2, along with shunting the DK's at the same time. Seemed like a solid idea to me, but everyone seems to favor rhinos or footslogging.

I only Deep Strike my Strikes when there's a very good reason, such as facing Tau in Hammer and Anvil. Otherwise having all that firepower to bear from turn 1 is a much better course of action.

 sudojoe wrote:
Another delimia I'm having is my GK + necron army seems to be mostly necron assault (d.lord + wraiths, min war squad + doomscythe and night scythe). Thinking of trying something with necron shooting and GK assault. Anyone find that one works better or the other? (thinking like modrak assault + shunting DK along with crons immortal shooting via tesla or is heavy gauss better? arrg)

I like this shooty-cron-assaulty/shooty-gk build:

HQ
Necron Overlord (Warscythe, ResOrb) - 120
Inquisitor [Grey Knights] + 3x Servo Skulls - 34
Elite
Necron Overlord's Royal Court (2x Harbingers of the Storm) - 50
Troops
Warriors (20x) + Ghost Ark - 375
Immortals (10x) Tesla Carbines - 170
Warriors (5x) + Night Scythe - 165
Warriors (5x) + Night Scythe - 165
Strike Squad (10x) [Grey Knights] + 2x Psycannons - 220
Strike Squad (10x) [Grey Knights] + 2x Psycannons - 220
Heavy Support
Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90
Nemesis Dreadknight [Grey Knights] + Heavy Incinerator + Personal Teleporter - 270

30x T4 Warriors (20x) with killer Reanimation+Ghost Ark+ResOrb
10x T4 Immortals with near MEQ saves PLUS Reanimation
20x T4 Marines with Psycannons and Power Weapons
That's a pretty decent amount of survivable boots on the ground!

(Overlord goes with Warrior blob. Harbys go in the Night Scythes as armor crackers. Deep Strike the Strike Squads and Dreadknight on a Servo Skull to reduce scatter. Necrons hold the backfield and march forward to midfield. Grey Knights take the midfield and march forward to opponent's deployment.)

This build has about 31 points to spare, short of 2k. (Bumping up the Inquisitor to a Psyker with Divination powers is fun.)
(You could also drop a couple Warriors from the blob to get a Harby of Destruction and a Solar Pulse to help on that first turn before Deep Strikers and Night Scythes arrive, and the Pulse Tek can sit in the Ghost Ark and fire at a different target than the blob.)

I don't see the point of that list; the Necrons aren't adding anything the Grey Knight don't already have and vice versa. If you are going to ally Necrons and Grey Knights, you spam Scythes or Wraiths to add something new for the Grey Knights. Otherwise the list has no synergy, it's just some mid-range shooting units from one army along side some rid-range shooting units from another. The Grey Knights have so little presence you'd be better off just playing Necrons.

I'd disagree with you on that Godless. That list is pretty good. My only gripe is that the inquisitor is pretty worthless, find the points for coteaz or find the points for a psycannon inquisitor with prescience. Necrons allow you to take cheap fliers and some cheap AV13. The DK works really nicely with a list like that due to it requiring the same sort of firepower that the AV13 requires to disable. I'd probably drop the Personal Teleporter on the DK for a better GK HQ. I am also not crazy about small amounts of fliers as I find that without strength in numbers they end up dying too easily. I'd probably take a 3rd Anni Barge and maybe a second Ghost Ark. That'll give 5 AV13 vehicles and a 2+ MC that are tough to take down. The infantry numbers are strong and at midfield you should be able to blow most folks off the table. For this reason I'd also consider a Pulse, just to ensure that you will make it to midfield with relatively few casualties. 1 Veiltek to put with the big blob would also be quite good as it gives you a way to throw the weight of that unit around during the end game.

I understand why someone would recommend Wraiths, but with shooting being so much better than assault in 6th, I'd rather have the cheap 'Cron firepower.

LValx wrote:
I'd disagree with you on that Godless. That list is pretty good. My only gripe is that the inquisitor is pretty worthless, find the points for coteaz or find the points for a psycannon inquisitor with prescience. Necrons allow you to take cheap fliers and some cheap AV13. The DK works really nicely with a list like that due to it requiring the same sort of firepower that the AV13 requires to disable. I'd probably drop the Personal Teleporter on the DK for a better GK HQ. I am also not crazy about small amounts of fliers as I find that without strength in numbers they end up dying too easily. I'd probably take a 3rd Anni Barge and maybe a second Ghost Ark. That'll give 5 AV13 vehicles and a 2+ MC that are tough to take down. The infantry numbers are strong and at midfield you should be able to blow most folks off the table. For this reason I'd also consider a Pulse, just to ensure that you will make it to midfield with relatively few casualties. 1 Veiltek to put with the big blob would also be quite good as it gives you a way to throw the weight of that unit around during the end game.

I understand why someone would recommend Wraiths, but with shooting being so much better than assault in 6th, I'd rather have the cheap 'Cron firepower.

So a little bit more like this:

HQ
Necron Overlord (Warscythe, ResOrb) - 120
Inquisitor [Grey Knights] + Termy Armor + Psyker + Psycannon + 3x Servo Skulls - 119
Elite
Necron Overlord's Royal Court (2x Harbingers of the Storm) - 50
Troops
Warriors (15x) + Ghost Ark - 310
Warriors (10x) + Ghost Ark - 245
Warriors (5x) + Night Scythe - 165
Warriors (5x) + Night Scythe - 165
Strike Squad (10x) [Grey Knights] + 2x Psycannons - 220
Strike Squad (10x) [Grey Knights] + 2x Psycannons - 220
Heavy Support
Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90
Nemesis Dreadknight [Grey Knights] + Heavy Incinerator - 160

Ok, so this comes in at 2,044 points (and its before I could add a Pulse Tek).
Lost 5 Warriors in the trade, but gained a 2nd Ghost Ark, a 3rd Annih Barge, and lost the PT on the Dreadknight. Oh yeah, and got the Termy Psycan Inquisitor with Divination.

You would need to cut just a bit more to get under 2k, and a bit more than that to add in the Pulse Tek.

LValx wrote:
I'd disagree with you on that Godless. That list is pretty good.

I never said it wasn't good, I just said I don't see why he isn't playing pure Necrons, as it would be stronger than that particular list. Generally when it comes to allies there's a simple rule; if it fills a gap and synergises it's stronger (e.g. Grey Knights with Scythe SPAM), if it fills the same roles with little synergy it is diluted and weaker (e.g. above).

If you drop the Ghost Arks for two more Scythes in the list above you start getting some of that, however the Grey Knights are still too weak a presence and don't fill any gaps. Terminators would work better than Strikes for that list because they give Crons something they don't have, whereas Strikes fulfil the same role as Warriors and Immortals. With Terminators you make target priority difficult for the enemy, as Terminators and Necrons both need dedicated offense to take them down, whereas MEQ don't so much. Thawn in particular works very well along side Necrons.

The major weakness of a Necron army is troops that lack offensive punch. Sure they are basically marines in survivability but they lack any counterattack threat and don't even shoot particularly well outside of 12", Strikes give you some decent anti-meq counter attack and give you great 24" shooting. I think they fit perfectly and do provide an extra dimension.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Formless. I like that list!

Tesla Immortals have superior offensive punch then Warriors.

Warriors are taken in large blobs as tarpits(when babysat by Ghost Arks)

I personally hate fighting tesla immortals but there's always a nagging feeling that I want to take the heavy gauss guns instead. I currently have constructed some 10 tesla immortals, but wondering if I should make anymore with heavy gauss or just depend on the warriors for that?

Reason I'm trying to move away a bit from scythe spam is that more and more people seem to allow forgeworld stuff now a days and skyfire/interceptors are getting very nasty with like saber defense platforms. I already have 3 necron fliers atm and can always sub in a 3 day old croissant if I need more I suppose

Trying to come up with more anti-all comers atm. Given the effectiveness of baleflamers and vector stirking dragons, I'm getting the itch that there will soon come another meta change. Just trying to stay ahead of the curve atm *hence the experiment with drop pods and space wolf craziness along with shifting my necron abilities*

The Heavy Gauss guns are only superior against vehicles. Tesla is far superior against everything else, even things your AP ignores the armor of.

LValx wrote:
The major weakness of a Necron army is troops that lack offensive punch. Sure they are basically marines in survivability but they lack any counterattack threat and don't even shoot particularly well outside of 12", Strikes give you some decent anti-meq counter attack and give you great 24" shooting. I think they fit perfectly and do provide an extra dimension.

Just because the Strikes do the role better than the Warriors (and they should considering the extra cost) that doesn't mean their role is different. They are both shooty units, but focusing on rate of fire, and both operate at mid-table. What happens when you put those units down together is the opponent blasts those Strikes away first because it's a very simple case of which is easier to kill. If that was a unit of Terminators on the other hand that distinction is no longer so clear. And if you are specifically looking for anti-MEQ then take one of the much better options in the Necron Codex for that role, because that is not what Strikes excel at.

Grey Knights and Necrons as an allied combo have placed at some tournaments AFAIK, but none of the lists looked like the one above. If allies are to be effective, they have to perfectly compliment each other, which these particular units don't do.

I agree with godless.

If you are going to ally you really really have to think about what you want. Especially because gk have no battle-brothers. You have to take something that you cant get in our book. Otherwise you will just be wasting points.

You take strike squads for spamming strength 5 shooting and psycannon, they are not combat units. No different to taking 10 immortals with tesla for less points. The list is alright but I kind of agree with everything said above, you could be just as good playing pure crons.

Just my 2c

 sudojoe wrote:
I personally hate fighting tesla immortals but there's always a nagging feeling that I want to take the heavy gauss guns instead. I currently have constructed some 10 tesla immortals, but wondering if I should make anymore with heavy gauss or just depend on the warriors for that?

Reason I'm trying to move away a bit from scythe spam is that more and more people seem to allow forgeworld stuff now a days and skyfire/interceptors are getting very nasty with like saber defense platforms. I already have 3 necron fliers atm and can always sub in a 3 day old croissant if I need more I suppose

Trying to come up with more anti-all comers atm. Given the effectiveness of baleflamers and vector stirking dragons, I'm getting the itch that there will soon come another meta change. Just trying to stay ahead of the curve atm *hence the experiment with drop pods and space wolf craziness along with shifting my necron abilities*

The last part about wolf craziness, OMG a buddy of mine plays wolves and another one just converted. Half of my meta is now combi-wolfguard drop pods and grey hunter drop pods backed by missle fun and a divination priest.

Turn 1 is so key that its make or break for the game. If I go first warp quake all over the place and I'm fine, I can protect things from the rain of plasma. I enjoy the tactic because I'm jelly that I don't get to use drop pods. I wish we had the 1d6 scatter like BA since GK fluff is surgical insertions, do the deed and get out of dodge.

I already posted this ealier but got no answers so I'll ask again what do you think is better on a 2000pt list, a grand master, or an ordo xenos inquisitor and a dreadknight,

the list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/492408.page

the grand master would make the paladins scoring (which is huge), but they would lose precience and a dreadknight always comes handy.

 serotol wrote:
I already posted this ealier but got no answers so I'll ask again what do you think is better on a 2000pt list, a grand master, or an ordo xenos inquisitor and a dreadknight,

the list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/492408.page

the grand master would make the paladins scoring (which is huge), but they would lose precience and a dreadknight always comes handy.

At 2k I'd take a GM, Coteaz and 2 heavy incinerator/teleporting DK's. The rest I'd fill in with troops and a stormraven.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

LValx wrote:
The major weakness of a Necron army is troops that lack offensive punch. Sure they are basically marines in survivability but they lack any counterattack threat and don't even shoot particularly well outside of 12", Strikes give you some decent anti-meq counter attack and give you great 24" shooting. I think they fit perfectly and do provide an extra dimension.

Just because the Strikes do the role better than the Warriors (and they should considering the extra cost) that doesn't mean their role is different. They are both shooty units, but focusing on rate of fire, and both operate at mid-table. What happens when you put those units down together is the opponent blasts those Strikes away first because it's a very simple case of which is easier to kill. If that was a unit of Terminators on the other hand that distinction is no longer so clear. And if you are specifically looking for anti-MEQ then take one of the much better options in the Necron Codex for that role, because that is not what Strikes excel at.

Grey Knights and Necrons as an allied combo have placed at some tournaments AFAIK, but none of the lists looked like the one above. If allies are to be effective, they have to perfectly compliment each other, which these particular units don't do.

@godless
I want to understand more. (I have very limited experience... collecting for about 2 or 3 months... have played a grand total of 1 game now.)
Can you give me a comparative analysis between GK and Necron units so that I can understand the niches a particular unit excels at, and which race does it better (or does it effectively for cheaper points)?
(Maybe you could start with what the niches are? I'm guessing things like Anti-Infantry (Anti-TEQ, Anti-MEQ, Anti-GEQ), Anti-Tank, Anti-Flyer. I'm also guessing that how they get the job done can factor in (close combat, range to 12", range to 24", long range, etc.))

A tactical understanding of what niche each GK unit excels at, and an understanding of how that niche can have synergy with other niches would be immensely tactically useful to a beginner like myself.

 serotol wrote:
I already posted this ealier but got no answers so I'll ask again what do you think is better on a 2000pt list, a grand master, or an ordo xenos inquisitor and a dreadknight,

the list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/492408.page

the grand master would make the paladins scoring (which is huge), but they would lose precience and a dreadknight always comes handy.

If you're going to take a paladin army, then you need to really consider Draigo. He can make the paladins scoring as well as the dreadknights (or give your pallies re-roll's of 1's). More importantly, he will be your tanking character to keep your pallies alive, absorbing those lascannons, meltas, lances, powerfists and othe insta-killing attacks.

However, if you don't want to go the Draigo route, then I'd probably keep it as-is. They don't really need to be scoring. I'd play them more as a sacrificial unit going to contest the enemy. Keep your support units like the dreadknight. You can also improve on the list:

- Drop all those excessive wargear on the Inquisitor. Just make him a Lvl 1 psyker so that he can give your strikers Prescience.

- Your 2 rhinos are just going to be easy First Blood points. Consider swapping them out for an ADL with quad-guns. I like the ADL for a primarily foot-lists. It also helps against flyers which you aren't too strong with.

- If you want a little more scoring, add 1 or even 2 3x henchmen units. Hey, can't get any cheaper than a 12-pt scoring unit.

- Remember, don't put the MC-Daemon hammers on your striker justicars. They're just going to be challenge-bait.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

FormlessDragon wrote:

HQ
Necron Overlord (Warscythe, ResOrb) - 120
Inquisitor [Grey Knights] + Termy Armor + Psyker + Psycannon + 3x Servo Skulls - 119
Elite
Necron Overlord's Royal Court (2x Harbingers of the Storm) - 50
Troops
Warriors (15x) + Ghost Ark - 310
Warriors (10x) + Ghost Ark - 245
Warriors (5x) + Night Scythe - 165
Warriors (5x) + Night Scythe - 165
Strike Squad (10x) [Grey Knights] + 2x Psycannons - 220
Strike Squad (10x) [Grey Knights] + 2x Psycannons - 220
Heavy Support
Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90
Nemesis Dreadknight [Grey Knights] + Heavy Incinerator - 160

Ok, so this comes in at 2,044 points (and its before I could add a Pulse Tek).
Lost 5 Warriors in the trade, but gained a 2nd Ghost Ark, a 3rd Annih Barge, and lost the PT on the Dreadknight. Oh yeah, and got the Termy Psycan Inquisitor with Divination.

You would need to cut just a bit more to get under 2k, and a bit more than that to add in the Pulse Tek.

The list is actually pretty good. Here are some suggestions though:

- You need Mindshackle Scarabs for your Overlord. MSS is a MUST.

- You need Psybolt Ammo on your strikers. Psybolt ammo on a 10-man striker squad is a MUST.

- I would downsize the warriors so that they + crypteks + any IC's can all fit within the ghost ark. By reducing the 15-man warrior unit, then you should have some points for the above upgrades.

- If you have enough points leftover, consider either 1) putting 1 hammer on the strike squads (not on the Justicar) or 2) upgrading those storm-teks to lance-teks (crypteks with eldritch lance).

 jy2 wrote:

FormlessDragon wrote:

Spoiler:

HQ
Necron Overlord (Warscythe, ResOrb) - 120
Inquisitor [Grey Knights] + Termy Armor + Psyker + Psycannon + 3x Servo Skulls - 119
Elite
Necron Overlord's Royal Court (2x Harbingers of the Storm) - 50
Troops
Warriors (15x) + Ghost Ark - 310
Warriors (10x) + Ghost Ark - 245
Warriors (5x) + Night Scythe - 165
Warriors (5x) + Night Scythe - 165
Strike Squad (10x) [Grey Knights] + 2x Psycannons - 220
Strike Squad (10x) [Grey Knights] + 2x Psycannons - 220
Heavy Support
Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90
Nemesis Dreadknight [Grey Knights] + Heavy Incinerator - 160

Ok, so this comes in at 2,044 points (and its before I could add a Pulse Tek).
Lost 5 Warriors in the trade, but gained a 2nd Ghost Ark, a 3rd Annih Barge, and lost the PT on the Dreadknight. Oh yeah, and got the Termy Psycan Inquisitor with Divination.

You would need to cut just a bit more to get under 2k, and a bit more than that to add in the Pulse Tek.

The list is actually pretty good. Here are some suggestions though:

- You need Mindshackle Scarabs for your Overlord. MSS is a MUST.

- You need Psybolt Ammo on your strikers. Psybolt ammo on a 10-man striker squad is a MUST.

- I would downsize the warriors so that they + crypteks + any IC's can all fit within the ghost ark. By reducing the 15-man warrior unit, then you should have some points for the above upgrades.

- If you have enough points leftover, consider either 1) putting 1 hammer on the strike squads (not on the Justicar) or 2) upgrading those storm-teks to lance-teks (crypteks with eldritch lance).

Ok, let's retool a bit with jy2's advice:

HQ
Necron Overlord (Warscythe, ResOrb, MSS) - 145
Inquisitor [Grey Knights] + Termy Armor + Psyker + Psycannon + 3x Servo Skulls - 119
Elite
Necron Overlord's Royal Court (2x Harbingers of Destruction) - 70
Troops
Warriors (8x) + Ghost Ark - 219
Warriors (9x) + Ghost Ark - 232
Warriors (5x) + Night Scythe - 165
Warriors (5x) + Night Scythe - 165
Strike Squad (10x) [Grey Knights] + 2x Psycannons + Psybolt Ammo - 240
Strike Squad (10x) [Grey Knights] + 2x Psycannons + Psybolt Ammo - 240
Heavy Support
Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90
Nemesis Dreadknight [Grey Knights] + Heavy Incinerator - 160

(Overlord and one Eldrich Lance plus 8 warriors in one of the Ghost Arks. The other Eldrich Lance plus 9 warriors in the other Ghost Ark.)

Ok, this brings the list in at 2,015 points.
We dropped 8 warriors between the two Ghost Ark squads. The crypteks were upgraded to Harbys of Destruction (Eldrich Lance). And the Strikes added Psybolt Ammo. Oh and the Overlord added MSS.

(The ResOrb doesn't feel as useful in a squad of 8 warriors that are INSIDE the Ghost Ark. Maybe drop the ResOrb and pick up S.Weave to come in at 2,000 points even.)

How does it look now?

FormlessDragon wrote:
(The ResOrb doesn't feel as useful in a squad of 8 warriors that are INSIDE the Ghost Ark. Maybe drop the ResOrb and pick up S.Weave to come in at 2,000 points even.)

How does it look now?

Good idea about dropping the ResOrb for 2+. The list looks good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@FormlessDragon

Also, I'd swap out the psycannon Inquisitor for Coteaz. Coteaz is a much better buy. He's a cheap force multiplier unit that provides 2 psychic powers each turn, gives you some protection against deepstriking armies like drop pods and daemons, and is decent in close-combat (at least more so than the inquisitor).

OK, so I have a wakky double tournement coming up. 2500 per side. The points can swing anyway but each player much bring a minimum of 1HQ and 2 Troops. I have a core list built for this already but I am having a debat with myself to either bring a second teleporting flamer dreadknight or mordrak and ghost knights. The list is a total alpha striking list.
HQ:
Mordrak
5x Ghost Knights

Troops:
Strike squad x10 with 2 cannons
Strike squad x5 with a cannon

FA:
Interceptors x10 with 2 cannons and Psybolt ammo
Interceptors x10 with 2 cannons

HV:
Dreadknight with flamer and teleporter

Second player has
HQ:
Rune Priest joins 9 WG in a pod

Troops:
Grey hunters x10 with 2x plasma in a pod
GH x7

Elite:
WolfGuard x9 with 9x combi-plasma in a pod
Wolfguard x10 with 6x combi plasma and 4x combi melta in a pod
wolfguard x1 joins the 7 GHs just chillin.

this alpha strike list or cut the mordrak and ghost knights for another teleporting DK with a flamer. Mordrak would be switch with a no name grandmaster.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

LValx wrote:
The major weakness of a Necron army is troops that lack offensive punch. Sure they are basically marines in survivability but they lack any counterattack threat and don't even shoot particularly well outside of 12", Strikes give you some decent anti-meq counter attack and give you great 24" shooting. I think they fit perfectly and do provide an extra dimension.

Just because the Strikes do the role better than the Warriors (and they should considering the extra cost) that doesn't mean their role is different. They are both shooty units, but focusing on rate of fire, and both operate at mid-table. What happens when you put those units down together is the opponent blasts those Strikes away first because it's a very simple case of which is easier to kill. If that was a unit of Terminators on the other hand that distinction is no longer so clear. And if you are specifically looking for anti-MEQ then take one of the much better options in the Necron Codex for that role, because that is not what Strikes excel at.

Grey Knights and Necrons as an allied combo have placed at some tournaments AFAIK, but none of the lists looked like the one above. If allies are to be effective, they have to perfectly compliment each other, which these particular units don't do.

I disagree with you. 20 Strikes, especially when 10 have a TEQ IC with 3 wounds attached are not particularly easy to blow off the table. You can also deploy in a defensive formation to keep the strikes from easily being targeted on turn 1. TEQ isn't a better buy because they have less rate of fire and are also killed by the same sort of firepower that kills marines, massed small arms. Obviously Strikes don't excel at anti-MEQ but they do provide a nice little counter-attack that makes it tougher to simply bull-rush the Necron lines. I've been running a list quite similar in composition that has been doing quite well so I contend with your statements that it doesn't synergise well. Warriors aren't very effective at mid-range shooting, they are effective at close-range firepower, the Strikes give true mid-range shooting because they can fire at full effect while staying out of 12".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also don't believe MSS are a MUST. I never take them and have only regretted taking them when I have.

Psybolts are good if you can find the points but I also disagree that they are a MUST. They put a bigger bulls-eye on the Strikes which makes it all the more likely that the opponent focuses on them first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd also rather have 4 Str. 5 Haywire shots than 1 Str 8 shot. Single lances aren't very impressive and I find them to be pretty points inefficient. 12" Haywire synergizes well because the Warriors themselves are best suited to blasting things at close-range.

I think the discussion we're having is great! While certainly some folks have proven that some things work, I think it's terrible if we all end up netlisting something.

While I personally love MSS cause I use my necrons in more of an assault type unit like D.lords and such, I can see how like large groups of foot warriors would be difficult to charge and so it'd be kind of useless to have MSS in there as you're depending on other units to take care of the counter charge. It's definately a different view point. I'm confused however as to why I'd have a lord in there in the first place though as I don't see him doing much in that kind of warrior block. Is it to just add in something with 2+ save to tank shots and take advantage of ever living and ghost ark rezing models instead of just warriors?

My personal viewpoint of GK weakness so far anyway have always been that we're:

#1 weak to return fire as we have low numbers - supplementing with big fire magnets and number of bodies tends to help
#2 no active psy defense - just all passive but it's kind of hard to stop other units buffing like crazy outside of mindstrike missles
#3 low numbers of long range AP 1-2 weapons , plasma henchmen is about all we got/servitors and the storm raven unless you go land raider and I'd hardly call 1-2 units enough for saturation
#4 Low volume of AP3 weapons and low number of large blast/cover denying attacks
#5 lack of survivable transports so we tend to be quite slow now a days unless you deep strike most things.
#6 Assault capabilities are just really medium when you really play them on the field outside our paladins/purifiers as we lack fleet/number of attacks/and really vulnerable to shooting/overwatch due to low numbers again.

As far as most difficult to overcome weakness, I think #1 is the biggest problem and often ties into #6. Survivable bodies on the ground is rough. It's actually gotten somewhat worse as I've seen alot of damage thrown out by chaos lists now with like 2 baleflamers going to town on my gunlines. Unless I got a skyshield, I'm kind of hosed. We don't often have the points to spare for full on sacrifical units like guard/nids/crons/chaos.

Allies selection for me usually has to fill some of this stuff. And no, henchmen just don't cut it. The low leadership and T3 in this environment of lots of enfeeblemens and flamers is not survivable really. If we had some sort of ATSKNF or get back to the fight mechanic, then I'd be fine with Ld8. Otherwise, they behave more often like firewarriors at long range and I've lost many a groups to the table edge.

#2 really has a tough time for us as there really isn't an ally that won't shut down our own powers too. Space wolves might be helpful if you don't mind the 24' range but at least it's something

#3 not that big a deal frankly as I always believed in volume after our psybolt dreads showed up though a str 10 rail gun vs a chaos daemon prince is really really nice lol.

#4 This wasn't really on my radar at first but I've noticed a big shift to MEQ foot in the meta lately and the baleflamer really has made me wish we had more of this stuff. It's just greed for the most part but man is it powerful. Our incinerators work well enough for xenos armies but I really feel like I see too much 3+ armor lately.

#5 For some reason I've been loving drop pods lately. Modrak sorta counts as one too. Night scythes also come to mind due to invasion beam. Heck, even valkyries in numbers sort of works or just outflank things. We don't have nearly as much flexibility in this as we're kind of tied into deep striking. Servo skulls sort of helps but most people have wised up to them and just eleminate them with some fast attack choices. Personal teleporters are really expensive but does sort of work on the DK. I'd not really depend on my interceptors much though. Since I've been play Tau lately, I've also grown rather fond of 3+ cover tanks lol. Really really tough nut to crack.

#6 After trying out a few games with subbed in wraithwing, it's been pretty fun to have HOW/rerolling charge distance. Our paladins and purifiers really don't have much in this regard. And frankly the way we kit them out now a days, they are more like mobile gun boats with some good coutner attack capabilities. While assault really has taken a back seat this edition, I've still managed to find a place for it. Vs nids for example, a gunline will easily be rushed by lots of gaunts with a venomtrope providing cover across the board. One DK flamer template isn't enough to stop it in general. 2, maybe but still difficult in some ways. JY2's target saturation still works this edition it just doesn't involve the barge overlord as often but still is effective with the right balance.

So I spent the last 2hrs reading what eveyone had to say and you've all answered my major question( So how much money is GW forcing me to pull out to update to 6th ed standards? xD).

The answer: alot

It seems pretty clear that henchman unless running drago have become a must as, we need objective campers and more over we need people on the ground. and more over we need ranged fire.
my first tourney listl http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/492858.page l ever played was this one last week which before hand in 5th edition was outstanding was murdered.

I'd like to share my findings which do reinforce/ come into unison with yours and my solutions from your findings and mine.

GM
ehhh. lot a points to get a lascannon to the face and die with. happened but yea he's awight for grandstrategy for scoring I presume.

SR's
I Love em, they are supposed to fly around and drop gak off and blow gak up but haha, that's exactly what it doesn't do. Everyone seems to think the are survivable but that really isn't the case, at least in my findings. SR, unless your takin 2 don't take any. Nobody allows free roam of flyers as most list at the tourney had a ADL, or some kind of flyers (More flyers than us) or, some sort to combat them. The SR is too much for what it brings to the table if( it survives the next turn to do anything at that) 205pts for 2 weapons 240ish for a HB upgrade is just too many points spent if your going for an anti flyer apporach. Even if your not It's alot of points for a model that can easily be shot out by more stronger flyer armies. Necs, guard, (literally every list I played against had an ADL so people must be learning) I'm not saying don't take em. I'm just giving a heads up for anyone thinking one SR is going to be enough/ going to do them well, It's not.

conclusion: take two or take none.

Dk's
Unless your taking two don't taken em xD. Yea similiar situation here is that they are the first thing targeted and the first thing to go down. more people have dedicated units for taking them down whether it be snipers/ las/ or plasma but, all together T6 looks good on paper but, at the end of the day it doesn't do anything when it dies on shunt/ does nothinng when the DK is dead after wards.

conclusion: take two or take none.

Need for Ranged troops of some sort is a must
Lack of range is the bane of this army now. Like simply put, a dreadnought is good by all means for popping transports but, it doesn't seem like a fair trade off to shoot a rhino and lose your dreadnought from AV Fire. plus that's first Blood as so many of you have pointed out. Simply put any army like IG/Tau/ or SW will massacre us at range if we continue to result to dreads as our main still

conclusion: In agreeance for henchman all the way. 8 psychers with 5 acolyte for additional wounds in one unit and a 3man pc and a 5 man henchman unit works wonders on range. plenty of templates to carry out hordes/ plenty of AP to deal with marines. In unison with srevos for reduced scatter. I belileve these 2 units will probably become the new LR source of firepower in a pure GK army anyways.

GK SS's
man oh man do these guys need a transport to block line of site or something. Once these guys go down to half strength pretty much count these guys out unless your going against a similiar opponent with low body counts because, getting behind on the body count after already being behind is just an uphill battle that short of paladins, is just very/ too hard to win.

conclusion: get rhinos for your transports, there gonna blow up but I;m telling you now I'd rather lose a 40 point marine so to speak lilke previosuly stated than half my gk unit.

Purifiers

I'd say that unless your running a paladin squad with 4 psycannons and a quisi already/ this squad SHOULD go in everyone's llist. Why? quisi with 4 psycannons with ADL quad gun and str 5 bolters wand str 7 psycannons means( No flyers For U ) Really, I'm not kidding this unit is just amazing. expensive but, amazing. They fill som many roles. They can most certainly tank out a horde unit have plenty of anti tank and I'd argue probably the best anti flyer unit in the game as long as prescience goes off unscaved. Straight up, while I don't have an ADL with quad gun yet, 4 psycannons have yet to fail killing off flyers for me. adding a quad gun with soem cover is just extra icing on the cake.

Conclusion: well obviously you don't have to have them, I just highly and very much recommend them xD

Coteaz
I don't leave home without out him anymore to say?

From all these findings and your findings as well I've constructed one last list that I plan n playing at the next tournament

Hq

Coteaz

Quisi
psycher, 3 servos

Elites

Purifiers x 10
4 psycannons
5 halberds
dh
psybolts

Troops

10 Gk
2 pscyannons
psybolts
dh
rhino

10 Gk
2 psycannons
psybolts
dh
rhino

2 crusaders
1 warrioracolyte

8 sanctioned psychers
5 warrior acolyte

3 PC servitors
5 warrior acolyte

Heavy Support

Dk
tele, hi

Dk
Hpsycannon

I went with with the crusader idea for holding the backyard objective idea will deffinitely free up my main force from having to split a unit of gk making them practically useless. So they can sit back there and go out to get it when time is called for and I have a rhino for them to sit in if it's in the open, 2 of them, although hopefully I can use those for my acutall gk

Took the sure anti flyer unit of coteaz with the purifiers on the quad gun( ain't nobody comin round here xD)

Got the long range henchmen either behind the ADL or in ruins provided there are some to give better line of site.

quisi to go with the servo squad in addition to the servos he provides for reducing scatter on the field.

I love Dk's over SR this editon. I can't see myself using them anymore knowing I'd have to take 500 points worth of my army in reserves with no sure sign of when they get on the field and at that( the one turn or turn they get on the field with just 24 str 5 bolter shots a las and melta. I got SS sqauds for that mess and Simply put I want more close combat punch as that is generally what would lack in my army should I not take them. I got one at home with a heavy pscannon a good distrcation from my main force as well as a good way to deal out damage/ then I got the one which can actually get up close and personal .

All in all I think I tackled it all for the most part.

anti flyer
anti vehcile
long range
med range
cc
templates
scoring units
mobility
model count

what do you guys think?

Too many weak GEQ's. You need more bodies, trust me.

As of lately all of my tournament lists start like this: Coteaz, Grand Master, 2x Strikesquadx10 with 2xcannons, 2 DKs with flamers(teleporters dependant on boardsize) after this core is in any other points left over are just to enhance or support this.

The only time I bring the heavy psycannon on a DK is for the lulz and even then it under performs. I used to love some corny henchman holding an objective but I think strike squads in cover just do it better.

What do you guys think about this rather interesting list? I just played against it with my tyranids at 1750:

Coteaz (Inquisitor Lord)

x3 Daemonhosts
x3 Acolytes with Melta Bombs
x3 Acolytes with Bolters
x2 Crusaders, x1 Psyker
x1 Crusader, x2 Acolytes with Plasma Guns
x1 Crusader, x1 Psyker, x1 Acolyte with Bolter

x3x10 Purifiers: x4 Psycannons, x1 Thunderhammer, x5 Halberds

x3 Chimera with Dozerblade
x3 Razorback with Dozerblade and Psy-ammo

x1 Dreadknight with H-Incinerator and Personal Teleporter

1750


He would combat-squad the purifiers. Halberds+hammer would go in the psybacks. Psycannons will then hop onto the chimeras.

I personally think it is awful (though I get the impression from your comment that you didn't write it). Only 18 scoring models most of which are T3. The combos in some of the warbands seems random (Crusader, single Psyker, Acolyte for instance). It has good shooting, but it is easily shut down. Even then, there are some armies you just can't table, so you should always be able to play the scenario.

No, I didn't write it, although I did play against it:


1750 BAO Practice - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Grey Knights


My opponent tends to write "interesting" GK lists that tend to buck the trend of normal traditional GK lists. There are some synergy to his lists and I've played against them in the past. They have given me trouble before.

I've done ok with my 1-2 psyker per squad tactic before. It's really useful vs hordes as it's just spammed large blast markers to force wounds though I don't think I'd have put a crusader in the same squad to save points.

The daemonhosts I keep seeing used but I just feel like theres something I don't know about them though in every game I've just shot them off the board so I couldn't really tell what they are good for. Maybe buff a inquisitor to T4 if it's just the 2 of them? If they had like true daemon rules, then they'd be boss, fearless to the group, heck ya but sadly they don't have anything like that so I am not sure what I'd really do with something like them.

certainly adds flavor.

I've done the whole chimera/razorback hot swap before and it sorta of works but I find myself at the mercy of str 7-8 weapons like most light transports do. Splitting up my razors and chimeras and forcing the chimeras to drive 24' up, makes my side armor very vulernable. Also since I play mech IG still, the AV 12 wall still works but when you start to dilute it with Av 11's and denying occupants shooting from some vehicles, I feel like it looses something in terms of target priority denial.

The gunboat chimera with jokaro's plasma servitors or psykers and 1 bolter acolyte or something is still fun for me to use. Lack of cammo netting also hurts alot for the GK chimeras.

I mean his list can work but I see the biggest problem is air power. He can maybe handle one or two flying things but that'd be pushing it. 3+ flying things would give that list alot of grief especially if it packed in AP2 weapons or templates.

What about this for a GK list at 1500:

1 Coteaz
1 Kaldor Draigo


6 Palladins W/ Psybolt Ammo
2 Psycannon &Nemesis Deamonhammer
1 Stormbolter & Brotherhood Banner
3 Stormbolter & Sword

3 Henchmen w/ Razorback TL Plas&Las
3 Henchmen w/ Razorback TL Plas&Las
3 Henchmen w/ Razorback TL Plas&Las
3 Henchmen w/ Razorback TL Plas&Las

1 DreadKnight w/ Heavy Incinerator
1 DreadKnight w/ Heavy Incinerator


Draigo en Coteaz join the pally for a nice killy unit, the dread knights march up with the pallies, the Razorbacks give fire support

Better if you get a 2 or 3 for Grand Strategy and if you aren't facing a list that will blast the Dreadknights and Paladins away easy such as Dark Eldar. You really rely on those 8 models for scoring as the 12 Henchmen are kind of pants at it.

I had a strange game the other day vs a guy that essentially had draigo and 6 solo paladins all deep stiking. The other parts of the list consisted of 2 scoring Dk's with just incinerators and no teleports, and a storm raven. Vindicare and a techmarine hung around with a psyfle dread in reinforced ruins.

Was really small army but really fun to play against. (this was 1500 points). His entire strat was to abuse the hell out of LOS and kept pressure on me with some decent but kind of low volume shooting. Essentially at these points I only had one assault element to my list and he'd just shoot that down a bit and then hide everything. When my guys got into position to get around some annoying ruins LOS, it was already turn 4 and he still had 4 scoring paladins and a scoring dk. I didn't lose much but with a shooty army, having nothing much to shoot at really was annoying as hell lol.

I'm not sure it's a super viable list but just seems to buck the trend. I'm not sure I'd want to fight it with my ork horde list as he'd just tarpit the heck out of my 3 scoring units (that I stripped the power klaws out of) like forever.

Vs my necrons wraithwing, I think I'll have the advantage but with a slow foot slog list, it was kind of hard to actually shoot him off things as his whole aim is to hide and avoid me behind LOS which we actually have quite a bit of here for terrain. Lucky for him we were playing emperor's will where we ended up a draw with both sides contesting eachother's HQ's with his paladin getting a lucky deep strike roll and my henchmen squad finally making it over to get stuck in with a DK with 1 wound left vs some 3 DCA with axes... But people are comming up with all sorts of wierd lists. Creative though.

How did he Deep Strike 7 units when he only deployed 5? That's illegal.

Denial is definitely a viable strategy, especially when you think your army is overmatched or your opponent's firepower is just too great. It's not fun for your opponent to play against, but it definitely gives you a chance to win where normally that chance may be small. That's how I played my necrons against a shooty MSU army at the the Golden Throne. It was how my bugs were able to overcome a guard army with tremendous firepower and most recently, a hybrid purifier/henchmen army. Deny your opponent his greatest strength (i.e. shooting in most cases) and now you have the advantage. But in order to do it well, you will need to bring a balanced army with enough mobility to overcome the positional disadvantage you will most likely be putting yourself in when you try to deny your opponent his strengths. That's why my crons have wraiths and flyers and my bugs have 2 flyrants and the far-reaching biovores.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
How did he Deep Strike 7 units when he only deployed 5? That's illegal.

In this case, it isn't. All 7 units only consisted of models which are always allowed to Deep Strike, ie. terminators. He could also DS those DK too if he wished, they have same special rule as terminator armour does.

I've become a fan of using psykers with at least the Prescience power as my HQs. One big 10 man terminator squad (with Psybolts and 2 Psycannons) basically getting to reroll all misses has done wonders for me. When the odds say you'll kill at least 5 marines a turn with that, it's pretty good.

Luide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
How did he Deep Strike 7 units when he only deployed 5? That's illegal.

In this case, it isn't. All 7 units only consisted of models which are always allowed to Deep Strike, ie. terminators. He could also DS those DK too if he wished, they have same special rule as terminator armour does.

TDA does not override the rules for reserves, the always Deep Striking thing has always been part of their rules because some expansions have mission which don't allow Deep Strike as standard deployment. Even then, 'always being allowed to enter by Deep Strike' in no way includes a clause 'and doesn't count for total reserves'. I've seen people say this before and it is nothing more than people reading a rule how they want it to play. There is nothing in the rules to support it, and there is no precedent set for it; everything else that is exempt from the reserve rules explicitly say so. So yes, it is cheating.

well I guess we may have misplayed it but it wouldn't have hardly mattered as he had one paladin hidden way the heck in the back behind some hills I could never have reached anyway so doubt it have changed the outcome of the game any way.

Still a very novel solution to the whole thing.

Personally I think it would have been better changes to that kind of list if he dropped the techmarine / vindicare/ psyfleman and took like a cheapo inquisitor to hide also way behind a hill somewhere as his warlord cause draigo by himself is good and all but really not that sturdy as he has nothing else for me to shoot at. Maybe get a 2nd storm raven just to be more annoying? I really have no idea. His "firebase" was definately a bullet magnet and even with a 2+ save, the vindicare still went down to enough shots his way.

I had an aegis too but it and the combined fire of the army having not much else to shoot at all game brought down his one storm raven after it killed a rhino and a henchman from coteaz's squad.

A more general question: Have had a lot of fun playing Grey KNights but like all Marine armies, they really aren't my favorite force TO play, given so many options that I have. So I have been playing other armies since 6E came out.

But I wonder this: In tournies, now that 6th Edition Allies have really taken flight and patterns are starting to show up we can kind of count on a bit, are we finding that Grey Knights are nearly the force they were as a whole?

I have seen no Grey Knights at tournies recently which surprised me and prompts the question. I've had no really strong desire to reach for mine to test the theory. They are my best painted army but I am having too much fun right now with other armies.

So just thought I'd ask if their tourney performance has sort of even'd out. I am sure most would say its a very good codex still, but is it the "powerhouse" it was when it first emerged?

 Jancoran wrote:
A more general question: Have had a lot of fun playing Grey KNights but like all Marine armies, they really aren't my favorite force TO play, given so many options that I have. So I have been playing other armies since 6E came out.

But I wonder this: In tournies, now that 6th Edition Allies have really taken flight and patterns are starting to show up we can kind of count on a bit, are we finding that Grey Knights are nearly the force they were as a whole?

I have seen no Grey Knights at tournies recently which surprised me and prompts the question. I've had no really strong desire to reach for mine to test the theory. They are my best painted army but I am having too much fun right now with other armies.

So just thought I'd ask if their tourney performance has sort of even'd out. I am sure most would say its a very good codex still, but is it the "powerhouse" it was when it first emerged?

I too have not seen many Grey Knights other than myself at tournaments since 6th struck Earth, however they are performing even better for me since, and I've managed to consistently place high with them, all but once in the top 5.

 Jancoran wrote:
A more general question: Have had a lot of fun playing Grey KNights but like all Marine armies, they really aren't my favorite force TO play, given so many options that I have. So I have been playing other armies since 6E came out.

But I wonder this: In tournies, now that 6th Edition Allies have really taken flight and patterns are starting to show up we can kind of count on a bit, are we finding that Grey Knights are nearly the force they were as a whole?

I have seen no Grey Knights at tournies recently which surprised me and prompts the question. I've had no really strong desire to reach for mine to test the theory. They are my best painted army but I am having too much fun right now with other armies.

So just thought I'd ask if their tourney performance has sort of even'd out. I am sure most would say its a very good codex still, but is it the "powerhouse" it was when it first emerged?

It's morphed alot from what it used to be for sure and I think that turned alot of people away from the knights. They were great when it was mech MSU with easy to pull off dismount charges that were very dangerous i.e. purifiers and of course the hard to kill paladin blocks that probably got way more attention than actually performing that much better.

It's definately still a good codex meaning there are alot of choices and they do alot of different roles usually well but definately not as powerful as it used to be. It's like I said on the first page too, it's definately a top end of the midtier codex now. More shooty options such as necrons, tau even (believe it or not I'm actually undefeated after 9 games with the Tau so far lol just about against anything as long as you let me have my tetras and eldar allies, and maybe a baracuda) , IG, and Space wolves got probably my top votes for best armies of 6th edition so far.

Others in the same level as GK I feel are Nids (psychic spam flying ftw), and chaos. (yes I said chaos, baleflamers and spawn all the way. Great units in that dex but people are still stuck using alot of wierd combos for fun as far as I can tell)

A bit below would be SM, sisters, orks (fear the 120 shoota boyz hordes and loota spam, also dakka jets are amazing, also great with wierd boyz and random waaaag), older non-forge world tau's, eldar, dark eldar, still good but definately more gimic prone like eldrad+vect madness etc along with daemons who I think are still a bit gimmicy. I got the flying circus and have enough flamers and screamers already painted but I'm still either not doing it right or just have terrible luck to where I can't really place them much higher,

At the bottom levels I'd probably put black templars and still wondering where to put dark angels as I'm thinking it's gonna get updated like in a month so I can't tell where it'll end up.

Upper mid-tier is not giving it enough credit I think. It is still solidly top tier, just not Necron tier.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Upper mid-tier is not giving it enough credit I think. It is still solidly top tier, just not Necron tier.

Agreed. They are still top-tier. They just aren't top dog anymore.

 sudojoe wrote:

It's definately still a good codex meaning there are alot of choices and they do alot of different roles usually well but definately not as powerful as it used to be. It's like I said on the first page too, it's definately a top end of the midtier codex now. More shooty options such as necrons, tau even (believe it or not I'm actually undefeated after 9 games with the Tau so far lol just about against anything as long as you let me have my tetras and eldar allies, and maybe a baracuda) , IG, and Space wolves got probably my top votes for best armies of 6th edition so far.

Others in the same level as GK I feel are Nids (psychic spam flying ftw), and chaos. (yes I said chaos, baleflamers and spawn all the way. Great units in that dex but people are still stuck using alot of wierd combos for fun as far as I can tell)

A bit below would be SM, sisters, orks (fear the 120 shoota boyz hordes and loota spam, also dakka jets are amazing, also great with wierd boyz and random waaaag), older non-forge world tau's, eldar, dark eldar, still good but definately more gimic prone like eldrad+vect madness etc along with daemons who I think are still a bit gimmicy. I got the flying circus and have enough flamers and screamers already painted but I'm still either not doing it right or just have terrible luck to where I can't really place them much higher,

At the bottom levels I'd probably put black templars and still wondering where to put dark angels as I'm thinking it's gonna get updated like in a month so I can't tell where it'll end up.

Here are my opinions. This is assuming the general is competent and knows how to play his army.

TOP-TIER ARMIES:
Tyranids are solid and can compete with a lot of the top tier armies. I'd actually rank them as a lower-top-tier army.

Daemons are a newly-crowned top-tier army that can win tournaments, thanks to the recent White Dwarf updates.

Necrons are a top-tier army that can win tournaments. They are arguably top-dog right now.

IG is a top-tier army that can still win tournaments.

Space wolves are a top-tier army that can still win tournaments.

Dark Eldar are a lower-top tier army. They have unbelievable offense but their resiliency is questionable.

Orks are a top-tier army that can still win tournaments. A lot of armies will have problems playing against 180 orks backed by nob bikers or 3 dakkajets or 30 lootas.

Believe it or not, Black Templars are a top-tier army that can win tournaments. Dave Fay has been proving this consistently. This is probably one of the very few armies that can match space wolves and grey knights in firepower and out-shoot everything else. 70pts for land speeder typhoons?!? I'll take 9 please. 5-man MSU squads with lascannons? Dreads with S10 lascannnons and terminators with S9 typhoon missile launchers due to Tank hunters? Codex creep actually has practically 75% of the army under-costed in comparison with the newer marine armies.



MIDDLE-TIER ARMIES:
Tau are still good. They are more matchup prone, excelling against certain armies and weak against others. They are an upper-middle-tier army.

Space Marines

Blood Angels

Chaos Space Marines

Sisters of Battle - often under-estimated.

Deathwing - a horribly unbalanced army but also one that a lot of armies find very hard to deal with.



LOWER-TIER ARMIES:
Dark Angels (other than Deathwing) - really, I can't find anything in that codex that vanilla marines can't do and do better.

Tyranids? No offense but I have a beat stick with a permanent dent in it the shape of a Tyranid.

Top tier? One thinks not! other than one dude who doesn't know how to read the rules for Psyker powers, I haven't seen ANYONE succeed with Tyranids.

Now I WAS talking at tournies BTW. in casual games I can see potential for fun with them, and their are combos I have been DYING to try in the absence of anyonegiving them a serious tourney go. But in tourney play itself not only are they rare right now but the are getting beat down by most reckonings Ive heard of.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Luide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
How did he Deep Strike 7 units when he only deployed 5? That's illegal.

In this case, it isn't. All 7 units only consisted of models which are always allowed to Deep Strike, ie. terminators. He could also DS those DK too if he wished, they have same special rule as terminator armour does.

TDA does not override the rules for reserves, the always Deep Striking thing has always been part of their rules because some expansions have mission which don't allow Deep Strike as standard deployment. Even then, 'always being allowed to enter by Deep Strike' in no way includes a clause 'and doesn't count for total reserves'. I've seen people say this before and it is nothing more than people reading a rule how they want it to play. There is nothing in the rules to support it, and there is no precedent set for it; everything else that is exempt from the reserve rules explicitly say so. So yes, it is cheating.

TDA actually does because it says "The wearers of Terminator armor may always deep strike"

They still count against the limit, but you can go over with them.

So if he had other units that we just in normal reserves he would have been illegal.

He couldn't have held a unit of Strike Marines in reserves as they would have been forced onto the table.

 Jancoran wrote:
Tyranids? No offense but I have a beat stick with a permanent dent in it the shape of a Tyranid.

Top tier? One thinks not! other than one dude who doesn't know how to read the rules for Psyker powers, I haven't seen ANYONE succeed with Tyranids.

Now I WAS talking at tournies BTW. in casual games I can see potential for fun with them, and their are combos I have been DYING to try in the absence of anyonegiving them a serious tourney go. But in tourney play itself not only are they rare right now but the are getting beat down by most reckonings Ive heard of.

While it's true that they haven't won any tournaments lately (though I have heard of them doing well in some), I attribute that to the rarity of tyranids appearing in the larger tournaments. People really don't have confidence in them at this time and so are opting to bring other armies to tournaments instead, ones that they feel are more "tournament-ready". But ever since I've started playing tyranids again recently, I'm beginning to see how good they can potentially be. I know my experiences are anecdotal since it's only a few games and not in a tournament environment, but some armies you can try even for a few games and gauge whether they have what it takes to succeed.

For my tyranid experiences (which BTW I am documenting in battle reports), just check out my battle reports in my battle report link below.

 jy2 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Tyranids? No offense but I have a beat stick with a permanent dent in it the shape of a Tyranid.

Top tier? One thinks not! other than one dude who doesn't know how to read the rules for Psyker powers, I haven't seen ANYONE succeed with Tyranids.

Now I WAS talking at tournies BTW. in casual games I can see potential for fun with them, and their are combos I have been DYING to try in the absence of anyonegiving them a serious tourney go. But in tourney play itself not only are they rare right now but the are getting beat down by most reckonings Ive heard of.

While it's true that they haven't won any tournaments lately (though I have heard of them doing well in some), I attribute that to the rarity of tyranids appearing in the larger tournaments. People really don't have confidence in them at this time and so are opting to bring other armies to tournaments instead, ones that they feel are more "tournament-ready". But ever since I've started playing tyranids again recently, I'm beginning to see how good they can potentially be. I know my experiences are anecdotal since it's only a few games and not in a tournament environment, but some armies you can try even for a few games and gauge whether they have what it takes to succeed.

For my tyranid experiences (which BTW I am documenting in battle reports), just check out my battle reports in my battle report link below.

Unless your army is SM , BA, SW, DA, Plague Marine,Thousand Suns or super covered GK your army is not
"tournament-ready" . all horde armys Tyranids, Orks, Deamons, Dark Eldar and Guardian heavy Eldar armys are useless in 6ed

 jy2 wrote:
Believe it or not, Black Templars are a top-tier army that can win tournaments. Dave Fay has been proving this consistently. This is probably one of the very few armies that can match space wolves and grey knights in firepower and out-shoot everything else. 70pts for land speeder typhoons?!? I'll take 9 please. 5-man MSU squads with lascannons? Dreads with S10 lascannnons and terminators with S9 typhoon missile launchers due to Tank hunters? Codex creep actually has practically 75% of the army under-costed in comparison with the newer marine armies.

Tank Hunters doesn't do that anymore.

 Grey Templar wrote:
TDA actually does because it says "The wearers of Terminator armor may always deep strike"

They still count against the limit, but you can go over with them.

If people can't see the contradiction there then there's no point in discussing this. It's just silly.

 yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:
Unless your army is SM , BA, SW, DA, Plague Marine,Thousand Suns or super covered GK your army is not
"tournament-ready" . all horde armys Tyranids, Orks, Deamons, Dark Eldar and Guardian heavy Eldar armys are useless in 6ed

No offence you really haven't even the faintest idea about what's competitive it seems. jy2 has proven himself at some of the biggest and baddest tournaments in the US, I'd take some advice from him if I were you, as there are no cheesy SM armies, Thousand Sons are not good, Orks and Daemons are both very good armies (the latter being one of the two big bads out there today) and horde armies do work very well in 6th. Moreover, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Daemons are not horde armies and there good builds don't play as such.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Luide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
How did he Deep Strike 7 units when he only deployed 5? That's illegal.

In this case, it isn't. All 7 units only consisted of models which are always allowed to Deep Strike, ie. terminators. He could also DS those DK too if he wished, they have same special rule as terminator armour does.

TDA does not override the rules for reserves,

Yes it does. You should the rules again.Here is the relevant part: They may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules . It explicitly goes on and tells you that models in Terminator armour may always start in reserves, so why you keep claiming it doesn't say that? Anyway, this is not right thread to argue it, we can move it to YMDC if you have any actual rules that support your viewpoint, while keeping in mind that specific > general / Codex > BRB.

Luide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Luide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
How did he Deep Strike 7 units when he only deployed 5? That's illegal.

In this case, it isn't. All 7 units only consisted of models which are always allowed to Deep Strike, ie. terminators. He could also DS those DK too if he wished, they have same special rule as terminator armour does.

TDA does not override the rules for reserves,

Yes it does. You should the rules again.Here is the relevant part: They may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules . It explicitly goes on and tells you that models in Terminator armour may always start in reserves, so why you keep claiming it doesn't say that? Anyway, this is not right thread to argue it, we can move it to YMDC if you have any actual rules that support your viewpoint, while keeping in mind that specific > general / Codex > BRB.

They may always start the game in reserves. The word MAY is what makes them count tward the 50% total... Pay close attention how the word MAY doesn't look at all like the word MUST. Flyers and droppods have this word in thier rules.

Yes, you can go over the 50% rule with Terminators. However they do still count toward the limit. So you couldn't put any other units in reserves that don't have this explicit allowence.

Luide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Luide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
How did he Deep Strike 7 units when he only deployed 5? That's illegal.

In this case, it isn't. All 7 units only consisted of models which are always allowed to Deep Strike, ie. terminators. He could also DS those DK too if he wished, they have same special rule as terminator armour does.

TDA does not override the rules for reserves,

Yes it does. You should the rules again.Here is the relevant part: They may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules . It explicitly goes on and tells you that models in Terminator armour may always start in reserves, so why you keep claiming it doesn't say that? Anyway, this is not right thread to argue it, we can move it to YMDC if you have any actual rules that support your viewpoint, while keeping in mind that specific > general / Codex > BRB.

Except that Codex only trumps BRB when there's a contradiction, which there isn't; 'may' does not equal 'must'. It is a choice that follows a set of criteria, not a obligation that stamps on the criteria.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Luide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
TDA does not override the rules for reserves,

Yes it does. You should the rules again.Here is the relevant part: They may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules . It explicitly goes on and tells you that models in Terminator armour may always start in reserves, so why you keep claiming it doesn't say that? Anyway, this is not right thread to argue it, we can move it to YMDC if you have any actual rules that support your viewpoint, while keeping in mind that specific > general / Codex > BRB.

Except that Codex only trumps BRB when there's a contradiction, which there isn't; 'may' does not equal 'must'. It is a choice that follows a set of criteria, not a obligation that stamps on the criteria.

First: Do read rules for reserves again, because if the Terminator armour read 'must' instead of 'may', there would be no contradiction with BRB rules at all: page 124 states that Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.
So while 'may' does not equal 'must', it is irrelevant as far your argument is concerned, especially as the rule says 'may always', not merely 'may' which you keep claiming.

Second: 'may' and 'may always' are two, completely different things. If the rules read only 'may', you'd have point, but because they don't, neither do you. 'May always' is blanket permission.

Third: The contradiction should be obvious:
1) BRB has rule which states only 50% of units are allowed to be placed in reserves. (Certain exceptions and counting rules apply).
2) Codex has a rule which states that terminators are always allowed to be placed in reserves.
So any BRB rule that says I'm not allowed to place 100% of my terminators in reserve breaks the 'may always be placed in reserve' clause of the Codex and vice versa. As normal, Codex takes precedence, which means I can place 100% of my terminators in reserve.

'May always' still isn't 'must'. 'May always' means you always have a choice (not every mission available for the game allows Reserves and/or Deep Strike). There's no argument needed after that; they simply are not the same thing, and that's a fact. And as you've so kindly pointed out above, only units that 'must' start in reserves don't count for the 50%.

While all that is in the air, I have a problem with the impression of hostility from your post. While well laid out, your whole post is overshadowed by your need to try and tell me my opinion doesn't count and that I mustn't be reading the rules because my interpretation doesn't agree with yours. Not everyone agrees oneverything mate, and not every situation is clear cut because you say so.

Given that this is a course of action only sought usually when people have no better argument to make, and given that you actually have made a good and valid argument, it's fair to conclude that you really didn't need to add all that to your post and as such I feel it is not worth discussing this with you anymore, as I feel it is in bad taste.

So good luck with your Terminators.

while I appreciate the bump in post counts, let's move the terminators may vs must argument over to YMDC.

I'll go start a poll and while highly unscientific at least that way it'll give a general idea of popular opinion and is in no ways binding.

Go vote it out here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/495403.page

Hopefully we can settle this before the world ends on Friday according to the Mayans. If not, I'll consider option C as the correct ruling but then necrons would rule the world or nids have eaten us all or gangum style would have somehow erased all computers in some sort of y2k apocalypse. See ya all on friday folks!

We've finally got enough folks lately around here to do a small tournament at 1000 points and I want to go GK but unsure of what to bring since I've almost got too many options and really don't play at this points level much. What do you guys think would work well? You name it and I probably have the options to make it wisiwig so go nuts. I'll let you guys decide what I bring. Good/ bad/ op/ or broken, I'll take w/e you all want. (don't really care all that much if I win or lose since I'm giving the prizes and really don't care to win my own stuff back lol. Probably will just give it to runner up even if I do win.)

 sudojoe wrote:
We've finally got enough folks lately around here to do a small tournament at 1000 points and I want to go GK but unsure of what to bring since I've almost got too many options and really don't play at this points level much. What do you guys think would work well? You name it and I probably have the options to make it wisiwig so go nuts. I'll let you guys decide what I bring. Good/ bad/ op/ or broken, I'll take w/e you all want. (don't really care all that much if I win or lose since I'm giving the prizes and really don't care to win my own stuff back lol. Probably will just give it to runner up even if I do win.)

I think at 1k grey knights are almost pigeon-holed into HQ + how much power armor with psycannons can I bring?

I'm thinking that a helldrake will make life pretty miserable for all PA GK's but that's just me....

 sudojoe wrote:
I'm thinking that a helldrake will make life pretty miserable for all PA GK's but that's just me....

Well, it has 'throw' to it, much like the hellhound or the heavy incinerator, but it still has to follow the same rules right? So no hitting across multiple squads unless you're getting every model in the targeted squad, and so on. As much as I hate them, maybe that makes a compelling argument for combat squadding.

Quad gun and focus psycannon fire will take care of a single heldrake. Yeah you're going to lose some guys its the nature of the beast. Use donut formation for your squads and make sure psycannons are not going to take the flame wounds to the face.

Also thinking in the shower last night if I place a TDA inquisitor or a 2+ armor techmarine in front, can't he tank the whole breath on himself since you roll closest model first eventhough none of the other guys would get a save you could potentially save it all on the 2+ guy?

It's kind of what I used to do with crusaders but I tend not to use them that much lately, maybe I should reconsider it again.

Just played against the new chaos today @1500 and tabled him on turn 5, was kill points mission.

He had one hell drake with bale flamer but did not come in to turn 4, killed about 15 points of henchman (all my strikes were in combat finishing of the enemy) before getting blown up by the raven.

Once again my dreadnought shined, killing his lord on bike, 7 bikers, 20 cultists and 4 havocs while only losing 2 wounds. I keep saying I will get another one soon ha.

Maybe take 2 for your 1000 point list sudojoe?

 tuiman wrote:
Just played against the new chaos today @1500 and tabled him on turn 5, was kill points mission.

He had one hell drake with bale flamer but did not come in to turn 4, killed about 15 points of henchman (all my strikes were in combat finishing of the enemy) before getting blown up by the raven.

Once again my dreadnought shined, killing his lord on bike, 7 bikers, 20 cultists and 4 havocs while only losing 2 wounds. I keep saying I will get another one soon ha.

Maybe take 2 for your 1000 point list sudojoe?

You mean Dread Knight or like a psyfleman dreadnought?

Ahhhh, sorry, I meant dreadknight

Hrm... 2 DK's at 1000 points??? I'll be unstoppable wmahahaha or so I hope lol. Might be a bit shy in bodies but seems like fun.

Maybe fill out with Coteaz and henchman to help with lack of bodies?

well based on what has been suggested so far... I got myself something that may look like this?

Coteaz with 3 servators and plasma cannons + multi-melta
5 man Strike squad with psycannon
DK + incinerator and H. psycannon ( I suppose I can just drop the H. pyscannons and get teleporters?)
DK + incinerator and H.psycannon

That leaves me with some 340 points left over. I can afford some 68 bolter acolytes

or I can get an aegis and get 48 bolter acolytes.

If I toss in some plasma, that'll leave me with 42 bolter acolytes and 3 plasma guns.

Only down side is I feel like I don't have any mobility but one heck of a shooting gallery. No assaults either unless the DK come to help out.


Alternative could be:

Coteaz with 2 plasma cannon servators and 1 multi-melta servator
strike squad with psycannon
Aegis with quad gun

DK with incinerator and teleporter
DK with incinerator and teleporter

3 plasma henchmen
3 plasma henchmen

And then 22 bolter henchmen to toss around for bodies. No real transports but I got some speed I suppose if I need it. Lack of Melta and lack of long range shooting has me somewhat concerned however....


Alternative #3

Coteaz
servators
strike squad
aegis with quad

DK with incinerator and teleporter

storm raven and DCA with some smattering of plasma henchmen and possible psyker inquisitor thrown in there.


Alternative #4

Coteaz
aegis?

DK with incinerator and teleporter

All mech psybolt razorbacks / chimeras with henchmen




Alternative #5

Coteaz
DK with incinerator and teleporter
Necron destroyer lord + wraiths and a nightscythe 5 man warrior squad
Then fill out list with bolter acolytes/plasma
(1 squad of 3 plasma guns and 27 bodies for henchmen)

Tourney went well enough but I ended up going with tau/eldar as they already had GK players and I wanted to bring some variety

Anyways, I'm doing a rewrite of some more stuff on henchmen and DK later on as I think there are some more optimized loadouts lately given shifts in my local meta.

Also allowing forge world has changed up alot of my allies matrices so I'm gonna have to go shove out more cash to read up on imperial armor stuff lol.

Any advise on tackling av13/14, have a lot or raiders/russ in my gaming group and Im finding it hard to crack them open. I normally have my mm raven, and then rely on psfleman glancing to death. I tried a vindicare but he either fluffed his 4d6 penetration, or rolled a 1-3 to on the chart :/ Any ideas, maybe allies?

 tuiman wrote:
Any advise on tackling av13/14, have a lot or raiders/russ in my gaming group and Im finding it hard to crack them open. I normally have my mm raven, and then rely on psfleman glancing to death. I tried a vindicare but he either fluffed his 4d6 penetration, or rolled a 1-3 to on the chart :/ Any ideas, maybe allies?

The MM raven is pretty much our best bet. Psyker henchmen with str 10 is another alternative if you don't have to worry about runes of warding. Suicide melta acolytes just don't work as well as I really hope so lately as their ride just isn't that strong and most of the raiders / russes are going to be pretty far back.

Vindicare is really a good bet honestly but he tends to get out gunned as he's only 36'. Usually need 2 sources to keep something in range or go 2nd to be able get good shots on them. The vindicare rolling 3's is annoying as it bumps to a 5 which just immobilizes. a 2 could at least make things shaken so at least it'll stop the ordinance from shooting back. The LR also will have difficulty hitting but does have those twin linked at least. One game won't show you what it can do honestly. I'd give him another try.

Allies with drop pods and melta guns is a good alternative (like grey hunters or rune priest hunter drop pod). Railgun tau broadsides is another decent choice. (2-3 broadsides inside a bastion with some fire warriors and a commander on the quad gun or lascannon on the roof is kind of a nice hard to budge block. The fire warriors are still decent now a days as carapace armor is pretty good and can hide alot. No significant psychic power buffs or defense unfortunately, also no good air protection even with forge world)

I know purgation squads get a bad rap for being overpriced, but rending psycannons are a glorious thing. Maybe stick a TDA psycannon inquisitor with prescience in a purgation squad and park them midfield? 5 twin-linked psycannons. Don't bother using Astral Aim, just use a cheap rhino for cover, using a flat-out move each turn to screen the squad after you shoot. I've done this before, tore the crap out of Necrons and their Quantum Shielding.

Thanks Sudojoe, my raven normally does a good job but it leaves me relying a lot on 1 shot that might not arrive until turn 4. I always feel I could do with an extra 2-3 options to take out av13/14.

I will try the assassin again and see how it goes, I guess another option is just ti charge with the dreadknight

So, after a long hiatus, I'm planning to make a return with a revamped more-to-TAC GK list. I previously played a henchmen pseudo-gunline spam that has completely dominated my local FLGS meta and made players not want to play against my GK list anymore, and I want to move up and build a more competitive list rather than just catering to the local meta. There's a small local tourney coming up, and I used the guidelines on the first post to build this to hopefully be more TAC.

Coteaz w/ Divination Powers

Librarian w/ Warding Stave, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Warp Rift (Depending on the match-up, I can swap to Divination powers)

Techmarine w/ Power Axe, Storm Bolter, Psychotroke & Rad Grenades, 3 Servoskulls

1x 5-man Paladin squad w/ 2 master-crafted Psycannons, 3 Halberds, 2 Hammers

1x 5-man GKSS w/ Psycannon, Psybolt ammo
Razorback w/ TLHB, Psybolt ammo

1x Henchmen Squad w/ 2 Plascannon Servitors, 2 Jokaero, 5 Bolter Acolytes
Razorback w/ TLHB, Psybolt ammo

1x Henchmen Squad w/ 8 Psykers, 4 Bolter Acolytes
Chimera w/ Multilaser & HB

2x Psyflemen Dreads

1x Stormraven w/ TLMM, TLLC
1x Stormraven w/ TLMM, TLAC, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolt Ammo

There are 2 ways I could deploy with this list, with the Paladins either one Stormraven with either the Librarian or Techmarine (with the other in the 2nd Stormraven, could be with GKSS if need be too) or everything on the board (the Paladins could then ride the Chimera if they need to move during the game). This will theoretically allow me to push several threats up midfield simultaneously - 2 Stormravens with dangerous cargo, 3 armored pillboxes (I can load them up with the Psykers and/or GKSS), and 2 shooty dreads. From what I've seen, people like to focus fire on my Stormravens once they learn a Paladin squad is inside, but even a rolling 36" Str. 10 AP 1 with 4 more bolters shooting out is enough to give some players pause.

I chose the Librarian over a GM for more utility and versatility - he can either stick with his codex powers or take Divination powers as need be. With 2++ potentially-rerollable invul in CC, he should do a good job tanking in CC or providing support whichever way. Since my only reserves will be the 2 Stormravens either way, hopefully I'll roll the Divination power that gives me 3d6-pick-one for my reserves rolls rather than relying on Psychic Communion.

My only fear is that I won't have enough boots on the ground (story of GK life...) but I'll be able to hold home objectives with Coteaz & co., potentially contest the rest. I wish I had the points to run 10 Paladins or 10 Terminators w/ Justicar Thawn, though, that would be perfect. :( Thoughts on this list?

 Enigwolf wrote:

Coteaz w/ Divination Powers

Librarian w/ Warding Stave, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Warp Rift (Depending on the match-up, I can swap to Divination powers)

Techmarine w/ Power Axe, Storm Bolter, Psychotroke & Rad Grenades, 3 Servoskulls

1x 5-man Paladin squad w/ 2 master-crafted Psycannons, 3 Halberds, 2 Hammers

1x 5-man GKSS w/ Psycannon, Psybolt ammo
Razorback w/ TLHB, Psybolt ammo

1x Henchmen Squad w/ 2 Plascannon Servitors, 2 Jokaero, 5 Bolter Acolytes
Razorback w/ TLHB, Psybolt ammo

1x Henchmen Squad w/ 8 Psykers, 4 Bolter Acolytes
Chimera w/ Multilaser & HB

2x Psyflemen Dreads

1x Stormraven w/ TLMM, TLLC
1x Stormraven w/ TLMM, TLAC, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolt Ammo

Your list is ok, but I don't see it as being all that great. The main problem is that you just don't have enough scoring units and your firepower is somewhat lacking. You will have problems against flyer-spam, horde armies, wraithwing necrons, Tzeentch daemons and many of the other competitive tournament builds.

Your deathstar with techmarine and perhaps librarian has some staying power but it doesn't really have a whole lot of hitting power. They will kill MEQ units and can possibly tie up enemy deathstars for a while, but don't expect them to be able to wade through cheap enemy tarpits like gants, orks and zombie cultists.

My suggestion? De-emphasize your assault unit and focus more on your shooting. Drop the techmarine or librarian (or even both!) and get more troops and shooting into that list. If anything, consider getting a GKGM. He can still take grenades, but he can also make your paladins and dreadnoughts scoring. This list may do well on the local level, but I just don't see it doing all that well in a more competitive setting like a GT.

 Enigwolf wrote:
So, after a long hiatus, I'm planning to make a return with a revamped more-to-TAC GK list. I previously played a henchmen pseudo-gunline spam that has completely dominated my local FLGS meta and made players not want to play against my GK list anymore, and I want to move up and build a more competitive list rather than just catering to the local meta. There's a small local tourney coming up, and I used the guidelines on the first post to build this to hopefully be more TAC.

Coteaz w/ Divination Powers

Librarian w/ Warding Stave, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Warp Rift (Depending on the match-up, I can swap to Divination powers)

Techmarine w/ Power Axe, Storm Bolter, Psychotroke & Rad Grenades, 3 Servoskulls

1x 5-man Paladin squad w/ 2 master-crafted Psycannons, 3 Halberds, 2 Hammers

1x 5-man GKSS w/ Psycannon, Psybolt ammo
Razorback w/ TLHB, Psybolt ammo

1x Henchmen Squad w/ 2 Plascannon Servitors, 2 Jokaero, 5 Bolter Acolytes
Razorback w/ TLHB, Psybolt ammo

1x Henchmen Squad w/ 8 Psykers, 4 Bolter Acolytes
Chimera w/ Multilaser & HB

2x Psyflemen Dreads

1x Stormraven w/ TLMM, TLLC
1x Stormraven w/ TLMM, TLAC, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolt Ammo

There are 2 ways I could deploy with this list, with the Paladins either one Stormraven with either the Librarian or Techmarine (with the other in the 2nd Stormraven, could be with GKSS if need be too) or everything on the board (the Paladins could then ride the Chimera if they need to move during the game). This will theoretically allow me to push several threats up midfield simultaneously - 2 Stormravens with dangerous cargo, 3 armored pillboxes (I can load them up with the Psykers and/or GKSS), and 2 shooty dreads. From what I've seen, people like to focus fire on my Stormravens once they learn a Paladin squad is inside, but even a rolling 36" Str. 10 AP 1 with 4 more bolters shooting out is enough to give some players pause.

I chose the Librarian over a GM for more utility and versatility - he can either stick with his codex powers or take Divination powers as need be. With 2++ potentially-rerollable invul in CC, he should do a good job tanking in CC or providing support whichever way. Since my only reserves will be the 2 Stormravens either way, hopefully I'll roll the Divination power that gives me 3d6-pick-one for my reserves rolls rather than relying on Psychic Communion.

My only fear is that I won't have enough boots on the ground (story of GK life...) but I'll be able to hold home objectives with Coteaz & co., potentially contest the rest. I wish I had the points to run 10 Paladins or 10 Terminators w/ Justicar Thawn, though, that would be perfect. :( Thoughts on this list?

My personal preferance in this case would be to pretty much agree with JY2. The tarpit of choice lately while doing ok with a librarian with a staff and hopefully the right divination powers, is still somewhat offset by his slow mobility and getting lucky on the rolls for powers. A DK is just plain more versatile. While I always will have a soft spot for paladins, it's too much of a points sink for this kind of list. 8 relentless psycannons are kind of cool but it's a bit "fat" for a fire base and not enough bodies. Also they aren't scoring.

For a 5 man GK SS squad, I'd skip the psybolt. Save it for a 10 man squad and you can always combat squad them around.
Right now, your storm ravens will be alot of fun but they are like 450 points for the pair. If poor reserve rolls or if the other guy has an astropath, the whole thing could be tough for you to survive otherwise as you're already short on bodies.

While this sounds kind of funky considering we're telling you to trim the points, I feel like your psyker chimera will probably do better with storm bolter acolytes. The thing is still gonna be kind of slow to cross the field as they can only move 6' or you're snap firing just about everything. You're not gonna get to rapid fire range very easily. Going out with the chimera will also often mean death from the sides as the AV 10 back/sides are easily brought down. My chimeras tend to just be pill boxes lately.

I still go flat out with rhinos occassionally though but have changed alot of my tactics to minimize problems with vehicle survival while trying to stay mobile. Skimmer transports are the way to go in 6th. Tank transports unfortunately kind of suck cept as mobile bunkers/ LOS blocking VP's for the enemy unless there is good amount of terrain on the map. Something not always granted by the game.

One fun trick I've done with my rhinos and the such for when I play Tau allies is to use a devifish to "tank" for my more squishy rhinos as it's flat out save makes it 2+ cover in the open and can obscure most of a rhino so you can claim a 3+ cover for the rhino piggybacking along. Problem with this is thelack of any good air support options from the Tau nor with anti-psyker, nor CC's. Good vehicles however. You'll also have some fun times with 3 railguns in a bastion. It's kind of fun lol.

Thanks for all that feedback! I took it them into consideration when reiterating the list. I absolutely love having two Stormravens around, but alas, you guys are right in that unbalances my list a little. :( I initially removed the techmarine, but then added him back when I found that I still had some points I could squeeze him in with, since in my local meta terrain pieces are huge, and I love the 3+ cover that he turns them into. Of course, this is highly situational and is never going to apply if I were to go to a GT. I wanted to replace the Librarian with a GKGM, but the GKGM turned out to start being a little expensive, and I wasn't relishing losing the Librarian's utility too much.

Coteaz w/ Divination Powers
Librarian w/ Halberd, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Warp Rift

Techmarine w/ Power Axe, Storm Bolter, Psychotroke & Rad Grenades, 3 Servoskulls

1x 5-man Terminator squad w/ 1 Psycannon, 3 Halberds, 2 Hammers

1x 10-man GKSS w/ 2 Psycannons, Psybolt ammo
Razorback w/ TLHB, Psybolt ammo

1x Henchmen Squad w/ 2 Plascannon Servitors, 2 Jokaero, 5 Bolter Acolytes
Razorback w/ TLHB, Psybolt ammo

1x Henchmen Squad w/ 8 Psykers, 4 Stormbolter Acolytes
Chimera w/ Multilaser & HB

2x Psyflemen Dreads
1x Dreadknight w/ Heavy Psycannon, Greatsword, Personal Teleporter

1x Stormraven w/ TLMM, TLLC

Compared to the previous list, this puts a little more emphasis on the dakka - same number of psycannons but with the GKSS expanded to 10 instead and the addition of a Dreadknight, as well as one more scoring unit (two if the GKSS combat squads) and one more denial unit. If I could get Thawn in, I could potentially have yet another scoring unit if he dies and gets back up. I decided to stick with the Chimera despite its side armor vulnerability due to the fact that if my opponent isn't running blast weapons, I use strategic movement and placement of the Rhinos to obscure side armor shots.


If I were to make any changes to this, an alternative would be me replacing both the Librarian and Techmarine with a GKGM with psycannon or replacing one Psyfleman and the Techmarine with that second Stormraven I love, or both changes. I've also been looking at Tau allies - Shas'o in a Crisis suit, Fire Warriors and Devilfish for blocking shenanigans, and 3 Broadsides to replace either one or both Psyflemen (and hey, look, unlike Psyflemen they'll benefit from the 3+ bolstered terrain my techmarine gives! ). But that will have to wait for now because I don't own any Tau...

The comming of the DA codex is amongst us!

As you guys have probably already seen pictures of and or seen other posts of these guys on, I'm expecting a bit of a hit to our GK's with the release of DA.

Several things make me afraid of our survivability in that DA's seem to have alot of plasma including terminator mounted Plasma cannons that can split fire, bike mounted twin linked plasma, Flying things with lots of guns and shared stealth and possibly plasma lol and of course the new land speeder vengeance which will for sure have plasma on it as it's already pictured. The plasma storm whatever that is does not sound good for us! Not sure what plasma talons are yet but sounds like more plasma at any rate. I have a feeling we're gonna lose our big terminator advantage here as they got all sorts of fancy hammer of wrath things apparently too with atr 10 AP2.

Seems like more and more, we'll be depending on our henchmen and power armored goons and GW just seems hell bent on getting rid of our paladins for CC anyway and 2+ just won't be the same afterwards. Heck, even the lowly rhino or our HB razorbacks will not be able to handle that much plasma including split fire plasma no less.

Well, at least that's just my initial read of the white dwarf. What do you all think?

PS. despite us having psycannons that are str 7, AP 4, the plasma AP2 makes a notable difference on the vehicle damage table now as well as our saves at least.

PPS. Either get some DA allies in or necrons as the assault counter as my initial reaction but I could be jumping the gun. Good thing we're kind of friendly with everyone on the allies table lol.


PPPS. Time to bust out my Ulumeathi Plasma syphon ordo xenos inquisitor wmahahaha (too bad there seems alot of long range plasma but at least it'll be effective vs the rapid fire bikes)

I have a suspicion that the GK ability to spam Str 7 AP 4 is going to be far overshadowed by the DA ability to spam Str 7 AP 2 in addition to having larger units... Hm.

The first thing I thought was that gk dont have much access to plasma, (outside of henchman reallyt) so the new dark angels would make a great allied addition to them.

Was almost going to get some crons, but will now wait. You can pick up dark vengeance pretty cheap, maybe a tac squad and libby for the hq and troops, then a bike squad with plasma talons (18inch plasma guns), maybe a deathwing squad or a new flyer. Lots to think about.

I can see some good synergy with GK too like you said. I'd probably get in some sort of RW bikes to go well and replace the rhinos. GK can be the fire base for some sort of hammer and anvil type of strat

Either that or maybe swarm the enemy with our terminators along with DA terminators?

I'm more of the opinion though due to costs of units most likely that I'd get the DA stealth flier or w/e the thing that kills other air planes to assist with air superiority along with a storm raven. Then the ground pounders can slog away without problems at range with plasma cannons and psycannons.

Gosh I wish rending gave AP2. wonder if they'll ever FAQ it to say that.

Rending does give AP2 as far as i read the rules...

My LGS has tournements every month and I don't see much of a terminator pressence anymore. Unless its of the T6 W4 variety. The month I won power armor bros were a true workhorse. Having twice the shots for the same price as a terminator squad pays dividends over the course of a game. Sure you need to rely a lot more on cover depending what you are facing but thats the norm. I do truly miss my terminators/paladins though. Oh, LoS why can't you still be cheesy. :(

I miss our terminators/paladins too. :( Maybe I'll field DW terminators and use my GK ones as "counts as"

Any thoughts on synergies between the DA codex and ours?

Also, potential "cheese" lists that might come up against us? I know in my local meta some guys ran Ravenwing squads with a Darkshroud 'speeder with teleport homers. Turn 1 scout move + rapidfire plasma weapons, turn 2 deepstrike DW terminators. & DW Knights. Some other armies I've seen lost pretty badly because of this, but I think we're fine since we've Warp Quake...

 Enigwolf wrote:
I miss our terminators/paladins too. :( Maybe I'll field DW terminators and use my GK ones as "counts as"

Any thoughts on synergies between the DA codex and ours?

Also, potential "cheese" lists that might come up against us? I know in my local meta some guys ran Ravenwing squads with a Darkshroud 'speeder with teleport homers. Turn 1 scout move + rapidfire plasma weapons, turn 2 deepstrike DW terminators. & DW Knights. Some other armies I've seen lost pretty badly because of this, but I think we're fine since we've Warp Quake...

Was I sleeping a week? The codex isn't out till saturday, right?

DakotaBlue wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I miss our terminators/paladins too. :( Maybe I'll field DW terminators and use my GK ones as "counts as"

Any thoughts on synergies between the DA codex and ours?

Also, potential "cheese" lists that might come up against us? I know in my local meta some guys ran Ravenwing squads with a Darkshroud 'speeder with teleport homers. Turn 1 scout move + rapidfire plasma weapons, turn 2 deepstrike DW terminators. & DW Knights. Some other armies I've seen lost pretty badly because of this, but I think we're fine since we've Warp Quake...

Was I sleeping a week? The codex isn't out till saturday, right?

Some guy who just came back from overseas already has a 'dex. Whether it's genuine or not is a different story.

The white dwarf has been out now and you can glean a lot from the battle report even though they didn't follow the foc. Still don't know points though you can see some of the potential rules though not exact wording

I can't wait to see a buddies DA dex. I'm sure Belial and friends are not going to be the cheap "If you want termies take us" allies they are right now. Who knows they might even become our new terminators if they have good plasma options at a reasonable price. Halberds pwn everything they face except 2+ saves and lose most of the time in a termi vs termi matchup. Conscripting some plasma and storm shield termies into chapter 666 might be good.

 Goat wrote:
I can't wait to see a buddies DA dex. I'm sure Belial and friends are not going to be the cheap "If you want termies take us" allies they are right now. Who knows they might even become our new terminators if they have good plasma options at a reasonable price. Halberds pwn everything they face except 2+ saves and lose most of the time in a termi vs termi matchup. Conscripting some plasma and storm shield termies into chapter 666 might be good.

DW Terminators can take plasma cannons. What's there not to like about that? Hell, I wish our termies could take plasma cannons and stormshields. :( Also, check the stuff on Faeit212. It's pretty accurate.

Siderant: Why can't other GK be as smart as Draigo and hold a stormshield in one hand, CCW and bolter in the other...?

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I can't wait to see a buddies DA dex. I'm sure Belial and friends are not going to be the cheap "If you want termies take us" allies they are right now. Who knows they might even become our new terminators if they have good plasma options at a reasonable price. Halberds pwn everything they face except 2+ saves and lose most of the time in a termi vs termi matchup. Conscripting some plasma and storm shield termies into chapter 666 might be good.

DW Terminators can take plasma cannons. What's there not to like about that? Hell, I wish our termies could take plasma cannons and stormshields. :( Also, check the stuff on Faeit212. It's pretty accurate.

Siderant: Why can't other GK be as smart as Draigo and hold a stormshield in one hand, CCW and bolter in the other...?

Draigo defies the logic of other codex terminators. They have no free hands for grenades. Draigo is so over the top he can hold sword and shield and still pitch grenades. The rest of the GK terminators have the stormbolter hand free to throw grenades and stay at Initiative 4 when going throw terrain. Conculsion Draigo has 3 arms.

 Goat wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I can't wait to see a buddies DA dex. I'm sure Belial and friends are not going to be the cheap "If you want termies take us" allies they are right now. Who knows they might even become our new terminators if they have good plasma options at a reasonable price. Halberds pwn everything they face except 2+ saves and lose most of the time in a termi vs termi matchup. Conscripting some plasma and storm shield termies into chapter 666 might be good.

DW Terminators can take plasma cannons. What's there not to like about that? Hell, I wish our termies could take plasma cannons and stormshields. :( Also, check the stuff on Faeit212. It's pretty accurate.

Siderant: Why can't other GK be as smart as Draigo and hold a stormshield in one hand, CCW and bolter in the other...?

Draigo defies the logic of other codex terminators. They have no free hands for grenades. Draigo is so over the top he can hold sword and shield and still pitch grenades. The rest of the GK terminators have the stormbolter hand free to throw grenades and stay at Initiative 4 when going throw terrain. Conculsion Draigo has 3 arms.

Maybe his shield or his stormbolter has a hidden grenade launcher.

Ditto.

Neat stuff comming out of the DA codex stuff. Apparently their fliers are just kind of meh so I'm not sure of their counter air abilities as for 25 points more you can get a storm raven but their flakk missles on tactical squads can be useful.

I suddenly see more fun times with modrak bomb along with a DA deathwing assault with Belial as he won't scatter. They are also twin linked the turn they come in so can lay down some hurt. Massive amounts of shots from the modrak ghost knights on troops while the belial bunch can nuke down a vehicle or something from the rear armor. Also can get some interceptors or DK to shunt forwards (with possibly psycannons to the rear armor). It'll be a totally in your face army by turn 2 almost no matter what.

Technically turn 1 but assault by turn 2 almost no matter where you hide. Just have problems doing it against other GK I suppose lol.

I haven't checked on drop pods yet but I see yet more fun times dropping things on your enemy.

It's almost like I'm playing chaos daemons with all the deep striking lol


Some interesting wargear choices like Auspex can reduce enemy cover saves by 1 if you don't shoot with the model holding the Auspex.
Rad shells ( -1 toughness to unit when hit by this thing, 18' blast) will be something that synergizes well with our rad grenade inquisitors/techmarine. However, it's also extremely dangerous vs our henchmen and inquisitor HQ's as even a str 4 bolter will be able to instant death our multi-wound HQ's if hit by one of these things.

Not quite sure how to feel about all the crazy banner rules. I'll have to go read more on that a bit later on.

 Goat wrote:
My LGS has tournements every month and I don't see much of a terminator pressence anymore. Unless its of the T6 W4 variety. The month I won power armor bros were a true workhorse. Having twice the shots for the same price as a terminator squad pays dividends over the course of a game. Sure you need to rely a lot more on cover depending what you are facing but thats the norm. I do truly miss my terminators/paladins though. Oh, LoS why can't you still be cheesy. :(

I still embrace the Paladin Love. My 2k is pretty much Draigo, 15 paladins, 2 DK's and a Storm Raven for my 2+ themed army. Still very viable. And with the Meta changing to see a lot more anti MeQ infantry Weapons on the table i think Paladins/Termies are some of the best choices. Although melta can really ruin my day.

Joe, have you ever just attatched Mordrak to a 10 man strike squad and just save the points on the ghost knights? I've tried it out and liked it a lot. Having mordrak upfront to take some hits and let him spawn ghost knights into the squad.

 Goat wrote:
Joe, have you ever just attatched Mordrak to a 10 man strike squad and just save the points on the ghost knights? I've tried it out and liked it a lot. Having mordrak upfront to take some hits and let him spawn ghost knights into the squad.

I'm not sure that's a legal combination but could be fun if it worked. Modrak does not have the Indepedent character rule. He can't joint any units other than the ghost knights that are bought for him. When all the ghosts are dead, he reverts to a single model unit but never gains the IC rule.

 sudojoe wrote:

 Goat wrote:
Joe, have you ever just attatched Mordrak to a 10 man strike squad and just save the points on the ghost knights? I've tried it out and liked it a lot. Having mordrak upfront to take some hits and let him spawn ghost knights into the squad.

I'm not sure that's a legal combination but could be fun if it worked. Modrak does not have the Indepedent character rule. He can't joint any units other than the ghost knights that are bought for him. When all the ghosts are dead, he reverts to a single model unit but never gains the IC rule.

Oh, crap... well that changes things for this weekends tourney. I didn't even notice. I just seen it in his special rules. "Mordrak and any unit he's attached to... blah blah blah" and figured.

I got a look at the DA codex today. I feel that Deathwing became really overcosted. The Flyers are very expensive for what they do, but the Ravenwing bikes are amazing if the typo for the command squad turns out to be how I think it is.

The bikers can all have Salvo 2/4 for their Boltguns. This means that DA can put out more shots than we can per squad at 24 inches. Add in that they can take dual Plasmaguns in those squads and its a pretty vicious combo. I'm thinking that Guard Blobs won't be such a great ally, but again this is only if the typo for the command squad is fixed soon.

Anyways its possible to take a Tactical Squad as an objective holder or scouts and then take a large Ravenwing squad as allies for us. It could really help increase the damage potential that GK can put out.

Taking a heavy for 5 man tac squads is cool to, I normally play aegis line with strike squads, so adding a small 5 man tac squad with flakk missile laucher to put behind the line might be a great cheap way to use the troops allies tax.

Libbys are cheap to, dirt cheap, and then just fill out a nice size ravenwing squad, lots of ideas

So with Nova and 1750 lists now upcoming what are people planning to play? I've been testing with friends and we have a few unexpected lists ...


== Doing the Monster Mash ==
HQ: 1 Malleus Inquisitor (TDA. Psycannon, Prescience) 110 (GK)
HQ: 1 Avatar of Khaine 155 (EL)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 15 Storm Guardians (2 Flamers, Spiritseer, Conceal, Singing Spear) 173 (EL)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Dreadnought (Dual TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition) 135 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Wraithlord (Missile Launcher, Scatterlaser 135 (EL)

- so this is the list that you have sen many pages back toned down for 1750. I had to drop Draigo - I miss him. At 1750 the list works okay but Draigo was rather important - nice to have scoring DKs.


== NecKnights ==

HQ: GK Grandmaster (Nemesis Force Halberd) 180 (GK)
HQ: Destroyer Lord, Sempiternal weave, MSS 160
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troops: 5 Warriors [Nec], 165 
1 Night Scythe [Nec] (TL Tesla Destructor)
Troops: 5 Warriors [Nec], 165 
1 Night Scythe [Nec] (TL Tesla Destructor)
Fast Attack: 5 Wraiths (1 Whip Coil) 185 (Nec) Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Anihilation Barge (Nec) 90

- this list plays better in the current meta methinks. It just has more answers all round. I have cc capabiliteies, AA and decent dakka with the grandmaster adding some scoring troops to the mix.

 felixcat wrote:

So with Nova and 1750 lists now upcoming what are people planning to play? I've been testing with friends and we have a few unexpected lists ...


== Doing the Monster Mash ==
HQ: 1 Malleus Inquisitor (TDA. Psycannon, Prescience) 110 (GK)
HQ: 1 Avatar of Khaine 155 (EL)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 15 Storm Guardians (2 Flamers, Spiritseer, Conceal, Singing Spear) 173 (EL)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Dreadnought (Dual TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition) 135 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Wraithlord (Missile Launcher, Scatterlaser 135 (EL)

- so this is the list that you have sen many pages back toned down for 1750. I had to drop Draigo - I miss him. At 1750 the list works okay but Draigo was rather important - nice to have scoring DKs.


== NecKnights ==

HQ: GK Grandmaster (Nemesis Force Halberd) 180 (GK)
HQ: Destroyer Lord, Sempiternal weave, MSS 160
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon, Psybolt) 240 (GK)
Troops: 5 Warriors [Nec], 165 
1 Night Scythe [Nec] (TL Tesla Destructor)
Troops: 5 Warriors [Nec], 165 
1 Night Scythe [Nec] (TL Tesla Destructor)
Fast Attack: 5 Wraiths (1 Whip Coil) 185 (Nec) Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists) 160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Anihilation Barge (Nec) 90

- this list plays better in the current meta methinks. It just has more answers all round. I have cc capabiliteies, AA and decent dakka with the grandmaster adding some scoring troops to the mix.

Not that much of a fan of the first one as I typically find that eldar bring the best anti-psyker and are good at buffs but some of their guns aren't as good as they used to be. Also, that wraithlord doesn't have an eldar psyker guiding it does it? Won't it just seize up like a servator every once in a while? Lack of air support or anti-air will kind of hurt as well as lack of mobility since everything is just footslogging. More of a fun list that I can see more than anything else.

The necron list you have is pretty close to what I'm doing with GK + necrons lately cept I use coteaz to sit on the back and use a doomscythe instead of the annhiliation barge. I do miss the scoring dreadknight in that scenario but I do manage to slap a teleporter on him usually to get in people's faces the same time as the wraithstar hits and or support the arrival of the air forces. It's got pretty good balance of things and really just suffer a bit from mostly just medium range weapons. Fast dark eldar things are annoying to fight with this due to night shields but overall the fliers will be able to get in there and negate that advantage.

There is a spiritseer in the list. I've not had the problem yet ... the list does lack psychic defense though. Overall it is not terrible but there are some holes.

We tried the Coteaz/henchman variant of list two. It works but plays differently for sure. And henchmen need transports that just fail at times leaving fragile troops exposed. Why the doomscythe? It isn't really that good. It is quite expensive and more of a fear factor. It has very weak armour and does things that the night scythe does as well and the A. Barge does cheaper. On paper it looks better but you can only hit other flyers in hover mode and Gk and Necs already have all the tools needed for tanks and infantry. Saving 85 points and taking an A. Barge makes more sense to me.

The doom scythe is there for me to tackle hard to penetrate things that are depending on stealth/shrouding at 12' - ya looking at you Tau Hammerheads.

Also vs bastions which are being fielded fairly frequently as are land raiders which locally is making a come back. As much as I like psycannons and my str 7 spam, 10 warriors are not enough gauss to glance heavy hitters to death nor is AP4 psycannons any good even with a rend. As of current edition wording, only wounds get the AP2, armor pens are not wounds thus people have not been kind enough to allow the AP2 to apply to armor pen by strict RAW reading. I'm still personally waiting for a FAQ to change this but I've tried the argument myself over at YMDC and that's the current popular opinion. While I save points on the A.barge, it's still restricted to roughly the same range as other things so I mostly depend on the doom scythe to get those tough to kill, high armor things that may require me to get pretty close.

DE ravagers or venoms can be brutally annoying to get to by foot as you'll really be hammered from 36' out while you need to close to 18' to shoot back from night shields. A.barges just don't work as well vs alot of lances. Rather hide and come in later on to hopefully bring things down.

Coteaz is mostly just there to give me some cheap 12 point scoring troops. The main body of the GK's SS's can stay the same. The grand master could have only made the DK scoring as far as I can tell. Can't affect necrons with his power as far as I'm aware but it's kind of a rules grey area.

I'm not familar with the spiritseer so I can't really comment on that combination.

While the warscythe lord + wraiths are good vs some of the targets I listed above, I find that he can't be everywhere at once and can sometimes get tied down keeping fast movers off my lines like spawns and or potentially be going after different targets. Also one game they got wiped out by a suicide melta grey hunter 5 man squad + rune priest in a pod with JAWS lol
(was an objective game so I didn't go first and he got the "drop" on me before warp quake could go up.)

Edit:

ok Looked up what a spirit seer does so I guess it does work. May perhaps consider using some crazy contemptor mortis if you guys are allowing forge world as it can get skyfire and interceptor with twin linked auto cannons along with psybolt and missles at good range. Also it's BS5 but it's like 200+ points at that range.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/499195.page

Big talking point here in relation to us (mostly) about feel no pain vs force weapons, I guess it will be up to the TO otherwise house rule/roll of.

I say no to feel no pain as if the psychic test is passed, the wounds immediately become instant death, thus ignoring feel no pain.

 tuiman wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/499195.page

Big talking point here in relation to us (mostly) about feel no pain vs force weapons, I guess it will be up to the TO otherwise house rule/roll of.

I say no to feel no pain as if the psychic test is passed, the wounds immediately become instant death, thus ignoring feel no pain.

No one I've ever played with in my FLGS has ever called me out on ID'ing through FNP. =/ Let's face it, it doesn't make sense.

Oh I agree entirely, my main opponent is blood angels and hes fine with it, its how I have always played,

Expect to be questioned about it more though I guess. Just a loop hole people like to find and rave about until an official faq is ever put out.

Got some more looks at the DA codex and it's got some nice features that definately can give our gunlines big headaches.

Their stealth generating land speeder is pretty boss and can be as hard to kill as Tau since it's essentially got a 2+ cover in the open with a flat out. We only really have perfect timing to help offset this at range. The DK incinerator can possibly reach it as well but would be kind of tough to bring down for standard gunline set up. That thing set up with some ruins and a banner of devestation to give bolters salvo 2/4 can be pretty tough to breach especially if a techmarine bolsterd it. Pretty much everything with a 2+ cover and would be very tough to budge. 24' bolter death wall.

Throw some cheap devestators in there too and they can get range and better damage against alot of our henchmen shooting. Good thing auspex only works at 12' or we'd be royally hosed. Someone else pointed out on a different thread that IG with cammocapes/cover netting w/e they are called, + aegis + stealth field would have like a battery of artillery with 2+ cover pounding our lines. I don't have much that can counter this yet lol.

The land speeder going with ravingwing bikes can get into our faces also really fast with nice cover saves via flat out saves and stealth along with T5 melee possibly with some sort of FNP banner. Henchmen really some sort of counter assault in place as far as I'm concerned. Strike squads is a possibility vs keeping some purifiers or DCA around.

Our stike squads can help at least with warp quake vs belial's massive terminators in our face. Also their knights will be T5 and possibly with some FnP deep striking in our face. Being that tough with 3++, I'm not even sure coteaz's I've been expecting you will be quite enough to stop them all. More to come as I'll try to proxy some stuff against myself since no one here actually plays DA.

Their super cheap librarians come in at just 65 points so got me jealous quite a bit even with our inquisitiors.

Lastly, I see quite a bit of fun with the vindicare as we can snipe their banner guys nicely at least.

Its going to be a really tough nut to crack, but once hits go through the darkshroud will die quickly. It'll die to weight of fire which GK have loads of. I don't think it'll be a huge issue for us to handle. What does bother me is the grenade launcher that fires Rad Grenades. It makes it easier to take down MEQ's now and just about anything.

I'm in agreement with the Rad Grenades, T3 marines are not fun to have. =/ Anyhoo, regarding the Darkshroud, most lists I'm seeing now for GK field DKs with Heavy Incinerators, or Teleport Packs. Even with a Heavy Psycannon, remember that if you're within (I believe?) 6" of them of the same ruin, they can't claim the terrain's cover save.

I've yet to try a proper game against them, since I've been theoryhammering most of it with my FLGS' local cheese player. Can someone remind me what Auspex does?

Also, with the size of basilisks and other IG tanks, I'd be very hesitant to give them a cover save from the ADL (also depending on the angle of firing), since it does state that you need to be concealed by it to gain the cover save - it doesn't work by simply standing behind it. That being said, my Elysian Tauros Venators are low enough that they can claim that save...

My real worry is only Belial's terminators, and I'm determined that Warp Quake will be more important than ever now.

T3 marines yes but the T2 inquisitors getting one shot by bolters is what scares me.

Auspex is at 12', and reduces enemy cover save by 1


Do you have a reference on where it says you don't get a cover if within 6' of the same place? I don't see any mention of that in the book under shooting or cover or ruins. On the flip side, I just realized that ruins are area terrain and that you get a +2 to cover save when going to ground in there. I never knew that and somewhat surprised it took this long for it to have come up. I get a 2+ cover naturally in regular ruins by going to ground with my strike squads now. Woots. Thanks for making me looks stuff up as I've realized I've been playing it wrong for a while now.

 sudojoe wrote:
T3 marines yes but the T2 inquisitors getting one shot by bolters is what scares me.

Auspex is at 12', and reduces enemy cover save by 1


Do you have a reference on where it says you don't get a cover if within 6' of the same place? I don't see any mention of that in the book under shooting or cover or ruins. On the flip side, I just realized that ruins are area terrain and that you get a +2 to cover save when going to ground in there. I never knew that and somewhat surprised it took this long for it to have come up. I get a 2+ cover naturally in regular ruins by going to ground with my strike squads now. Woots. Thanks for making me looks stuff up as I've realized I've been playing it wrong for a while now.

Hm, now that I'm looking it up too, I can't seem to find it either. I remember that it was described that they don't get a cover save simply because you're firing point blank at them. Does anyone have a recollection of this, or was this something from 5th ed that I carried over without checking...?

 Enigwolf wrote:


Hm, now that I'm looking it up too, I can't seem to find it either. I remember that it was described that they don't get a cover save simply because you're firing point blank at them. Does anyone have a recollection of this, or was this something from 5th ed that I carried over without checking...?

That's a 5th relic. People at my FLGS (including me) were playing like that for a few months after 6th until someone decided to look it up.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:


Hm, now that I'm looking it up too, I can't seem to find it either. I remember that it was described that they don't get a cover save simply because you're firing point blank at them. Does anyone have a recollection of this, or was this something from 5th ed that I carried over without checking...?

That's a 5th relic. People at my FLGS (including me) were playing like that for a few months after 6th until someone decided to look it up.

You know what's even more? I just found this on Pg. 62 of the BRB - Defensive Grenades.

"A unit equipped with defensive grenades has the Stealth special rule against all shooting attacks targeting them, so long as:
They are within 8" of the unit firing at them.
They have not gone to ground."

Plague marines just got harder to kill for me. =X

I don't think I'm generally going to be getting within 8' of plague marines anytime soon

In any case, a frield of mine plays CSM and he's been looking at the new DA dex and he's planning to definately go 2 helldrakes for the most part along with possibly getting some noise marines back into the mix to get past all that crazy cover saves especially as I play tau. After much griping about overpriced blastmasters it certainly sounds good.

Alot of the sonic weapons that no one seems to have used lately are incidentially pretty dangerous to any dismounted henchmen we got sitting around. Blastmaster str 8 shots can get through alot of our cover protections too. Seems interesting anyway. His lists have never been that competitive honestly so I'm not worried all that much for my GK's but he is getting a bit better. Wonder what other meta changes we might see from the DA codex that may also spill over to our lists.

At least from the CSM standpoint, ignore cover is going to be pretty useful to get as are AP3 templates anyway. Definately going to be threating to some of my current builds anyway.

 sudojoe wrote:
I don't think I'm generally going to be getting within 8' of plague marines anytime soon

In any case, a frield of mine plays CSM and he's been looking at the new DA dex and he's planning to definately go 2 helldrakes for the most part along with possibly getting some noise marines back into the mix to get past all that crazy cover saves especially as I play tau. After much griping about overpriced blastmasters it certainly sounds good.

Alot of the sonic weapons that no one seems to have used lately are incidentially pretty dangerous to any dismounted henchmen we got sitting around. Blastmaster str 8 shots can get through alot of our cover protections too. Seems interesting anyway. His lists have never been that competitive honestly so I'm not worried all that much for my GK's but he is getting a bit better. Wonder what other meta changes we might see from the DA codex that may also spill over to our lists.

At least from the CSM standpoint, ignore cover is going to be pretty useful to get as are AP3 templates anyway. Definately going to be threating to some of my current builds anyway.

I'm thinking that in Chaos lists, you're either going to need to field more Noise Marines OR Heldrakes. The importance of Ignores Cover in this edition with more terrain and footslogging infantry cannot be stated enough. Especially now with Ravenwing in the mix, you're looking at consistent 2+ and 3+ jink saves running towards you with plasma weaponry (and potentially a teleport homer for turn 2 Deathwing assault...) I'd reckon that even Heldrakes' Baleflamers will have a little difficulty (what with S4 Baleflamer against T5 bikes), but even a single squad of Noise Marines may prove to be a lot more valuable now.

As a result (since this isn't the CSM tactica thread, lol) we're probably going to see a lot more Heldrakes and Noise Marines. Which doesn't bold well for our Henchmen, since they're pretty reliant on non-armour saves (i.e. cover) Therefore, I'm thinking that the traditional loadout of mid-field weaponry (i.e. stormbolters, plasma weapons) may start becoming outmoded in favor of more vanilla GKSS, and we might see a use for one or two Crusaders once more to provide that just-in-case 3++ shielding.

 Red Comet wrote:
Its going to be a really tough nut to crack, but once hits go through the darkshroud will die quickly. It'll die to weight of fire which GK have loads of. I don't think it'll be a huge issue for us to handle. What does bother me is the grenade launcher that fires Rad Grenades. It makes it easier to take down MEQ's now and just about anything.

One thing to keep in mind is that rad shells affect models, not units. Thus, it has to get the majority of units down to T3, otherwise the unit will still be T4 against shooting.

The baleflamer is actually str 6

The rad grenade launcher apparently affects the unit and not just models at least that's what the iOS version guy tells me

 sudojoe wrote:
The baleflamer is actually str 6

The rad grenade launcher apparently affects the unit and not just models at least that's what the iOS version guy tells me

I have the codex. It affects models, not the unit.

So I really doubt DA players would take it over plasma tbh

 jy2 wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
The baleflamer is actually str 6

The rad grenade launcher apparently affects the unit and not just models at least that's what the iOS version guy tells me

I have the codex. It affects models, not the unit.

Please reread your codex, if any models in the unit are hit, the whole unit gets -1T. It's worded weirdly, but it is worded right,

 Enigwolf wrote:
I'm in agreement with the Rad Grenades, T3 marines are not fun to have. =/ Anyhoo, regarding the Darkshroud, most lists I'm seeing now for GK field DKs with Heavy Incinerators, or Teleport Packs. Even with a Heavy Psycannon, remember that if you're within (I believe?) 6" of them of the same ruin, they can't claim the terrain's cover save.

I've yet to try a proper game against them, since I've been theoryhammering most of it with my FLGS' local cheese player. Can someone remind me what Auspex does?

Also, with the size of basilisks and other IG tanks, I'd be very hesitant to give them a cover save from the ADL (also depending on the angle of firing), since it does state that you need to be concealed by it to gain the cover save - it doesn't work by simply standing behind it. That being said, my Elysian Tauros Venators are low enough that they can claim that save...

My real worry is only Belial's terminators, and I'm determined that Warp Quake will be more important than ever now.

Vehicles now only need 25% cover which the ADL certainly gives. IG Russ gunlines with cammo netting and stealth will be pretty boss.

The ADL only gives 25% at a certain range. Why? it is still literal line if sight and if my gun can see the bottom of your base, that ADL isn't going to do anything for you. Just because theres a wall on the field doesn't mean you're obscured by it.

Exorcists generally ignore ADL's for example. intervening models are more likely to matter against some weapons.

Food for thought.

sudojoe wrote:The baleflamer is actually str 6

My bad, confusing it with the Burning Brand of Skalathrax. lol.

Jancoran wrote:The ADL only gives 25% at a certain range. Why? it is still literal line if sight and if my gun can see the bottom of your base, that ADL isn't going to do anything for you. Just because theres a wall on the field doesn't mean you're obscured by it.

Exorcists generally ignore ADL's for example. intervening models are more likely to matter against some weapons.

Food for thought.

Typically, bigger vehicles such as Basilisks (what with the gun shield and all) are less than 25% obscured. From what I've seen, pretty much not even LRBTs get much in the way of a cover save if I'm on the 2nd floor of a building, ditto goes with the quadguns that people like to stick behind them.

Coyote81 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
The baleflamer is actually str 6

The rad grenade launcher apparently affects the unit and not just models at least that's what the iOS version guy tells me

I have the codex. It affects models, not the unit.

Please reread your codex, if any models in the unit are hit, the whole unit gets -1T. It's worded weirdly, but it is worded right,

Having re-re-re-re read the DA codex line and compaired it to the IOS version (there is no difference). I'm reading it more now as the models hit who may be inside of a unit get the -1 to T.

Also updated first page some more on the recent force weapon FAQ changes - FnP debate/hallucinations, vindicare buff.

I'm not sure I entirely understand how to apply the new weapons ranges and wound pool rules at this point however so I'm not sure how to address it yet.

I'm glad they also clarified that my SW+GK list is legal as someone fought me over can I take 2 rune priests or not as an allied detatchment.

Also surprised that they didn't give the SM Telion the same dead eye ruling. Maybe that's tomorrow cause it's still 1.1v

They un nerfed the Vindicare Assassin, according to the new FAQ Look Our Sir no longer applies with regard to the wounds he causes.

New vindicare tactic. Put him on an Icarus and instagib warlords with no LOS and target selection. You heard it here first XD

Or put him in a fortress of redemption and insta gib lots of models simultaniously; typically denying them armor and cover as well as being a large blast and fireable without actual LOS to boot. (not as good vs ICs in TDA of course).

The whole force weapon thing just made my day, also the vinicare ruling, picked one up the other day for $3 not thinking I would use it all the time, not any more

Finally, I can go back to slaying Plague Marines with impunity and actually using my Vindicare once more. I was pretty sick of his wounds being LOS'd. Although the idea of sticking him in an Icarus is pretty awesome. I don't see how putting him in a Fortress of Redemption will deny coversaves to the enemy, though?

The new weapon ranges rules is basically similar to the line-of-sight rule, although it just made shooting a lot more finnicky. From what it seems like to me, weapons can only wound models it is in range with. Ergo, no shooting exactly 24" away at a single model and then causing wounds all the way to the back models that are in reality out of range. It's just going to make shooting at long ranges in larger squads messy... you'll be rolling individual models' weapons to-hits and to-wounds, and then saves, rather than one blob of dice.

So ideas for a 1k list? Might be going to an escalation tournie next month, 1k, 1500 and 2k.

Was thinking double dreadknight would be fun but thats half my points haha.

valace2 wrote:
They un nerfed the Vindicare Assassin, according to the new FAQ Look Our Sir no longer applies with regard to the wounds he causes.

Thanks for pointing that out. I totally read that the wrong way last night. Vindicare is now awesome sauce.

 tuiman wrote:
So ideas for a 1k list? Might be going to an escalation tournie next month, 1k, 1500 and 2k.

Was thinking double dreadknight would be fun but thats half my points haha.

I wouldn't take 2 of them for 1k, it's too much.

If you were successful, it'd just mean total plasma spam in the next tier up and also horribly unbalanced anyway. Just use one. Also, any restrictions on your local tournie? like you have to keep the same units in the next tier or anything like that?

 tuiman wrote:
So ideas for a 1k list? Might be going to an escalation tournie next month, 1k, 1500 and 2k.

Was thinking double dreadknight would be fun but thats half my points haha.

Are you playing on a 4x4 game board at those points? If so, I'd totally rock out 2x DKs with incinerators. Shelve the teleporters bring two squads of strikes and a grand master. Call it a day and tell all your opponents to concede to your power.

Vindicare's are overpriced for what they do. Even assuming they hit every single shot, they still only kill an average of 3.5 terminator models in a 6 turn game. Other than the occasional librarian, pretty much every HQ I come up against has 3+ wounds with an invulnerable save.

Maybe if the Vindicare had more than 2 wounds....but he's so expensive for a single model that dies so quickly. In 3+ cover, a single Tactical squad has pretty good odds of killing him in rapid-fire range. 2 Rifledreads at 48" have good odds to take him out as well.

145 points is not terribly hard to make up though and yes, he usually dies in my games too but it's all about target selection.

Alot of lists depend on that special character or wargear to keep it functional like the DA's and their banner of devestation, or azeral's super 4++ helmet, or that cyclone missle launcher, or plasma cannon in the wrong place, or that multi-melta that just gotta die or that big tank or bastion with a quad gun on it.... There's a fairly good target in just about any and every list that can get some good sniper action. Well cept stuff like daemons wierdly enough lol since we can't break their weargear and have eternal warrior and often multiple wounds and almost no one uses banners or other upgrdes much anymore lol. Or nids actually, I'm not sure how much stuff needs sniping as there's so much multi-wound madness in there and lack of invul saves to begin with and no vehicles lol.

I think that's why people above are rooting for the krackstorm launcher and the icarus lascannon alternatives.

As the icarus is not twin linked, the high BS really helps and the krackstorm is just amazing lol (though I'm not sure any tourny will really allow it since the fortress is so big and more often than not, terrain is already pre-placed. Instead of outright banning them, I've also seen a smart TO just say that basically if you can't actually find any place to put it down, you don't get to use it and forfit the cost of your fortification's points. Pretty effectively made it so no one risked brining a skypad or fortress Though it wasn't specifically banned at all.

(I'm almost 70% through with the page 1 rewrite! woots)

MadmanMSU wrote:
Vindicare's are overpriced for what they do. Even assuming they hit every single shot, they still only kill an average of 3.5 terminator models in a 6 turn game. Other than the occasional librarian, pretty much every HQ I come up against has 3+ wounds with an invulnerable save.

Maybe if the Vindicare had more than 2 wounds....but he's so expensive for a single model that dies so quickly. In 3+ cover, a single Tactical squad has pretty good odds of killing him in rapid-fire range. 2 Rifledreads at 48" have good odds to take him out as well.

Vindicares aren't a hammer for smashing your opponent's warlord; they're a scalpel. Precise and subtle cuts. They're there to deal with that one thing you can't bear to have on the table. Meltagun getting too close? Gone. Nobz in boyz squads? Gone. Land Raider you can't take care of? Gone. The only reason why they die so quickly is because they're so damn terrifying, which can be another asset depending upon the game you're playing.

If you've gotten your Vindi in 12" range of Marines, I would expect him to be gone. He's not a beatstick. You need to protect him a little.

The vindicare post-FAQ is the same as the vindicare pre-6th. He hasn't really gotten better. He's just being his old self once again.

With that said, the same weaknesses still exist. Namely, he is still quite fragile and an easy First Blood target. To me, nothing has really changed about him. I stopped using him back in 5th when he was actually quite accurate. I may use him again in casual games, but in competitive ones, I'd probably stick with the psyfleman or dreadknight (the psyfleman for its Reinforced Aegis).

 jy2 wrote:
The vindicare post-FAQ is the same as the vindicare pre-6th. He hasn't really gotten better. He's just being his old self once again.

With that said, the same weaknesses still exist. Namely, he is still quite fragile and an easy First Blood target. To me, nothing has really changed about him. I stopped using him back in 5th when he was actually quite accurate. I may use him again in casual games, but in competitive ones, I'd probably stick with the psyfleman or dreadknight (the psyfleman for its Reinforced Aegis).

Speaking of... I've really missed reinforced Aegis. I wish "AV" wasn't such a bad stat now. -4 on leadership is super troll than a 5+ deny.

 jy2 wrote:
I may use him again in casual games, but in competitive ones, I'd probably stick with the psyfleman or dreadknight (the psyfleman for its Reinforced Aegis).

^^^ This. I get where everyone is coming from. The vindi can be an awesome scalpel, but my point is that he's so hit or miss depending on what type of army you're facing, what the terrain is set up like, what the mission parameters are....just too many "ifs". That coupled with his low survivability....you can place him all the way in the rear, and a single drop-pod of tac marines will take him out. I don't usually play against other GK players, but the last time I did and one brought a Vindi, I just scooted two Anni Barges up and took him out on the first turn...easy 145 points. It's that kind of vulnerability that needs to be weighed when you put him in your army.

Still, with that said, I have a narrative campaign coming up at my LGS, and he might see some use again because we will have foreknowledge of the opponent's army. Might even use my Mordrak/Lysander list to beef him up to a 2+ cover save again

 sudojoe wrote:

I think that's why people above are rooting for the krackstorm launcher and the icarus lascannon alternatives.

As the icarus is not twin linked, the high BS really helps and the krackstorm is just amazing lol (though I'm not sure any tourny will really allow it since the fortress is so big and more often than not, terrain is already pre-placed. Instead of outright banning them, I've also seen a smart TO just say that basically if you can't actually find any place to put it down, you don't get to use it and forfit the cost of your fortification's points. Pretty effectively made it so no one risked brining a skypad or fortress Though it wasn't specifically banned at all.

(I'm almost 70% through with the page 1 rewrite! woots)

Try and draw line of sight from those missiles to anything. Krack Storm pretty much always fires indirect, so the assassins BS doesn't come into play.
-Matt

So with the FAQ does this mean the coateaz can roll for 3 powers on a chart since he can now replace hammerhand?

 buddha wrote:
So with the FAQ does this mean the coateaz can roll for 3 powers on a chart since he can now replace hammerhand?

The same FAQ says Coteaz can take 2 powers.

 sudojoe wrote:

 tuiman wrote:
So ideas for a 1k list? Might be going to an escalation tournie next month, 1k, 1500 and 2k.

Was thinking double dreadknight would be fun but thats half my points haha.

I wouldn't take 2 of them for 1k, it's too much.

If you were successful, it'd just mean total plasma spam in the next tier up and also horribly unbalanced anyway. Just use one. Also, any restrictions on your local tournie? like you have to keep the same units in the next tier or anything like that?

No restrictions, so the lists can be completely different from one another, as long as the same codex is used lol ie gk. and only one allie choice but you dont have to have them in every list. So i can play pure gk at 1k, then take guard at 1500 then pure gk at 2k or whatever

1k will be played on 6x4 board

I acquired my first land raider crusader/redeemer for my GK army, till now it was 3 x psydreads.

I will magnetize the sponsors and doors so I can use either variant but I would like to know which one you find more effective for Grey knights. I know that Crusader would be nice with Psybolt ammo but the Redeemers flamers look nice on paper too although you have to get really close to make use of it.

I am gonna use some termies and the grand master or draigo with paladins regarding what it will transport.

Thanks in advance .

tuiman wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:

 tuiman wrote:
So ideas for a 1k list? Might be going to an escalation tournie next month, 1k, 1500 and 2k.

Was thinking double dreadknight would be fun but thats half my points haha.

I wouldn't take 2 of them for 1k, it's too much.

If you were successful, it'd just mean total plasma spam in the next tier up and also horribly unbalanced anyway. Just use one. Also, any restrictions on your local tournie? like you have to keep the same units in the next tier or anything like that?

No restrictions, so the lists can be completely different from one another, as long as the same codex is used lol ie gk. and only one allie choice but you dont have to have them in every list. So i can play pure gk at 1k, then take guard at 1500 then pure gk at 2k or whatever

1k will be played on 6x4 board

I'd say go nuts with the 2 DK if you want but I still feel it's kind of unbalanced even at 1k points but would be very fast games lol. Change it up to hordes at 1500 since people would take plasma to kill your DK's, and then alot of power armor once they get in lots of AP4 weapons wmahahahaha.

Capamaru wrote:I acquired my first land raider crusader/redeemer for my GK army, till now it was 3 x psydreads.

I will magnetize the sponsors and doors so I can use either variant but I would like to know which one you find more effective for Grey knights. I know that Crusader would be nice with Psybolt ammo but the Redeemers flamers look nice on paper too although you have to get really close to make use of it.

I am gonna use some termies and the grand master or draigo with paladins regarding what it will transport.

Thanks in advance .

I personally really like the crusader for it's versitility. The flamer is more fun but can be effective. With alot of lances and meltas, I just don't see my land raiders survive all that well to get close enough to flame. The crusader with psybolts can also double at shooting at AV 10/11 fliersifyou want, the redeemer is better vs a bunch of marines in cover.

The problem with the redeemer is that your passengers are really good vs marines in cover too so it can deny them targets. You have lower volume of fire vs hordes that you can't sweeping advance and fliers so crusaders despite being more points wise expensive is probably the better option.

So for 1000 points:

Draigo
solodin
solodin
vindicare
dreadknight, teleporter, incinerator
dreadknight, teleporter, incinerator

1000 exactly.

So solodins in reserve to take objectives, dreadknights shunt first turn and do whatever they do, draigo deepstrikes I guess, vindicare pops any nasty things you might find like raider etc.

Could be fun and crazy, maybe to crazy, thoughts?

pretty crazy as far as I can tell lololol.

At least your movement phase is gonna be super fast lol

On the flip side, remember the guy I was talking to about his changes to CSM noise marines a few posts back? Well he tells me and I've read the codex FAQ's myself now and it seems entirely possibly you may see a ton more blastmasters with a noise marine spam build!

Str 8, AP3 blast templates ignoring cover is gonna hurt alot for strike squad builds. Heck foot builds in general. I'm gonna have to reconsider alot of my tank survivability as well as a skyshield pad along with crusaders for my foot henchmen I'm thinking.

I realsise I have no flyer defence though, the dreadknights cant hurt them unless they hover, only have the vindicare to hit on 6's. Maybe swap out draigo and the two solodins for raven, cteaz and henchman. Like this:

Coteaz
raven - multi-melta, lascannon
vindicare
dreadknight, teleporter, incinerator
dreadknight, teleporter, incinerator

leaves 80 points for some henchman squads, put corteaz and a squad in the raven and have one squad walk on from reserve.

Actually I think this is better, as I have called a grudge match first round against a guy taking 3 plasma vet squads in vendettas. He will only start with the command squad, a medusa and aegis on the board, so my plan was to shunt first turn kill them all and auto-win before his flyers come on.

It might sound mean, but I told him my list, and he said It did not scare him, having the raven helps incase I cant kill the medusa, and next turn a vendetta or all three come on

Hmmm. I don't think the list is great. Not enough troop bodies for 80 pts.

Well, with a list like that I have to go for table the opponent rather than objectives. And at the tournament it will be unique missions, not ones from the brb, so might not even need that many scoring units. I see your point though.

I've just come up with a list vs myself (based on what the CSM guy got me thinking) that I think would beat down alot of our lists and I'm kind of interested in what you guys think can counter this without gimping us vs alot of other stuff.

Chaos lord of slanesh
5 noise marines with blastmaster
5 noise marines with blastmaster
5 noise marines with blastmaster
5 noise marines with blastmaster

baleflamer heldrake
baleflamer heldrake

Ork with KFF
30 shoota boyz
30 shoota boyz
6 lootas

bastion with lascannon. This is at 1500

Major flaw is how to deal with av14 but it'll hold up nicely vs a lot of our henchmen and msu as well as strike spam builds. An all termy build could stand up to this too I guess but those are not the best all around lists anymore

Guys here is a question...

The dark excommunication is very weird to me... i keep palying with a friend of mine CSM but i can't find any ways to use it! I mean, how do i know which models or units are affected by dark excommunication? Do you have any idea among the chaos codex, which units can be dark excommunicated? I tried to dark excommunicate obliterators (cause they are deamons) but he told me that i can't for a reason...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the story i played a game with him with the following list:

HQ - Ordo Malleus Inq (with power armor-psyker 1)
Troops - 2x GK Strike Squad with 2 psycannons and psybolt ammu
Elite - Vindicare assasin
Heavy - Dreadknight with greatsword - insinerator - psilenser - teleport

I wanted to try a combo of a heavy psilenser with rerolls from divination inquisitor.

Well, in my movement phase i casted reroll to hit on dreadknight and then i teleported near a unit of noise marines. I killed 4 models in the shooting + 1 blastmaster from vindicare. I took one wound from them in their shooting attack and i killed 2 more with overwatch when they tried to assault me, the others died in their assault phase. In my next turn, i am unengaged and i move 6", i shoot and then charge with hammer of wrath the next noise marines unit that is near. I won eventually but the point is that it was a fun list!

Havent read all thread, but with 6th i think Purgation squad got very very good. I use 10 of them in a stormraven with 4 inicinirators, get the teleporter beacon upgrade, psybolt ammo and then i DS them from the stromraven without scatter almost anywhere since the stormraven is so fast now when zooming. I usually take out a full squad of MEQ in one shooting phase. If you want assault protection (more then 4 D3 STR6 auto hits AP4), add an HQ to provide it

Try it, it's silly good. The tactical advantage is amazing,

Its not that purgation squads are bad, its that they compete with dreadknights and psyfleman dreads which are imho much better options.

Zelar, try the same combo with purifiers instead purgation squad (you dont really need the astral aim)....

Also, last time I checked, a squad of Purifiers with 4 psycannons is the same cost as a Purgation squad with 4 psycannons. Same shooting power with more combat ability.

They really should have given Purgation squads some additional weapon options to make them a decent choice.


I think they suffer from the drawbacks of all Devestator type squads, just a little more since they don't even have the advantage of more weapons in the unit that Devs do compared to a regular squad.

Zelar wrote:
Havent read all thread, but with 6th i think Purgation squad got very very good. I use 10 of them in a stormraven with 4 inicinirators, get the teleporter beacon upgrade, psybolt ammo and then i DS them from the stromraven without scatter almost anywhere since the stormraven is so fast now when zooming. I usually take out a full squad of MEQ in one shooting phase. If you want assault protection (more then 4 D3 STR6 auto hits AP4), add an HQ to provide it

Try it, it's silly good. The tactical advantage is amazing,

You may want to check the wording on the teleport beacon, you can only use it on strike squads, interceptors, and terminators. Purifiers and purgation squads don't actually get to use it. Some may even argue that it only works when comming in from reserves via fluff but I'm not sure that matters too much.

The FAQ for purgation squad still pisses me off. Things with stealth and shrouding shouldn't get any benefit when using astral aim not just during night fighting. If they just took out the nightfighting word in there, I'd happily incorporate purgation squads into the mix

 sudojoe wrote:

Zelar wrote:
Havent read all thread, but with 6th i think Purgation squad got very very good. I use 10 of them in a stormraven with 4 inicinirators, get the teleporter beacon upgrade, psybolt ammo and then i DS them from the stromraven without scatter almost anywhere since the stormraven is so fast now when zooming. I usually take out a full squad of MEQ in one shooting phase. If you want assault protection (more then 4 D3 STR6 auto hits AP4), add an HQ to provide it

Try it, it's silly good. The tactical advantage is amazing,

You may want to check the wording on the teleport beacon, you can only use it on strike squads, interceptors, and terminators. Purifiers and purgation squads don't actually get to use it. Some may even argue that it only works when comming in from reserves via fluff but I'm not sure that matters too much.

The FAQ for purgation squad still pisses me off. Things with stealth and shrouding shouldn't get any benefit when using astral aim not just during night fighting. If they just took out the nightfighting word in there, I'd happily incorporate purgation squads into the mix

I checked this one a long time back - the teleport homer only works for Interceptors and Dreadknights with Personal Teleporters. No one else uses a "teleport" move besides them.

Hey guys, I got a couple of 1k lists Im looking at, including a triple dreadknight one, if anyone would like to add some c&c

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/501832.page#5196966

 Enigwolf wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:

Zelar wrote:
Havent read all thread, but with 6th i think Purgation squad got very very good. I use 10 of them in a stormraven with 4 inicinirators, get the teleporter beacon upgrade, psybolt ammo and then i DS them from the stromraven without scatter almost anywhere since the stormraven is so fast now when zooming. I usually take out a full squad of MEQ in one shooting phase. If you want assault protection (more then 4 D3 STR6 auto hits AP4), add an HQ to provide it

Try it, it's silly good. The tactical advantage is amazing,

You may want to check the wording on the teleport beacon, you can only use it on strike squads, interceptors, and terminators. Purifiers and purgation squads don't actually get to use it. Some may even argue that it only works when comming in from reserves via fluff but I'm not sure that matters too much.

The FAQ for purgation squad still pisses me off. Things with stealth and shrouding shouldn't get any benefit when using astral aim not just during night fighting. If they just took out the nightfighting word in there, I'd happily incorporate purgation squads into the mix

I checked this one a long time back - the teleport homer only works for Interceptors and Dreadknights with Personal Teleporters. No one else uses a "teleport" move besides them.

Gk terminators and Strikesquads both DS using teleporting. (Strikesquads count only because the teleport homers specifically calls them out on it)

Just played against a very tough, triple dreadknight list at a 1750 tournament recently:

1750 Tournament - Double-Trouble Chaos Dynamic Duo

Coteaz
Grandmaster Mordrak
4x Ghost Knights - 1x Brotherhood Banner

3x Henchmen - 3x Plasmas, Chimera (Coteaz here)
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/TL-Assault Cannon
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/TL-Assault Cannon
3x Henchmen - Psyback (TL-Heavy Bolters w/Psybolt Ammo)
3x Henchmen - Psyback
3x Henchmen - Psyback

Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter


Battle report will be out probably tomorrow. Check it out and let me know what you think about his list and how I did.

Are there any models from chaos marine codex affected by Dark Excommunication?

No, they don't have Daemonic Gifts. Only units in the Chaos Daemons codex do.

 jy2 wrote:
Just played against a very tough, triple dreadknight list at a 1750 tournament recently:

1750 Tournament - Double-Trouble Chaos Dynamic Duo

Coteaz
Grandmaster Mordrak
4x Ghost Knights - 1x Brotherhood Banner

3x Henchmen - 3x Plasmas, Chimera (Coteaz here)
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/TL-Assault Cannon
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/TL-Assault Cannon
3x Henchmen - Psyback (TL-Heavy Bolters w/Psybolt Ammo)
3x Henchmen - Psyback
3x Henchmen - Psyback

Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter


Battle report will be out probably tomorrow. Check it out and let me know what you think about his list and how I did.

Hrm.. very nice, not much anti-air but I guess he'd just avoid them possibly or just depend on twin linked assault cannons? I've done similarly with 2 DK and a strom raven actually. It plays very well in general but does require some LOS terrain on the board. Also I didn't have the swords or the brotherhood banner and a grot squad of 5 strikes instead just for warp quake on my squishy tank lines. I'm still doing similar lists but trying to move towards a bit more longer range shooting as well as some AV14 bastion or land raiders I am expecting a ton of ignore cover save armies (al la the CSM noise marine spam with heldrakes + Ork idea up on top. 6 scoring units in 1500 and high powered igore cover shooting with horde coverage and 2 fliers with now 360 templates and vector strikes that ignore cover (no jink for me!)... gonna be a mess lol) in the near future so going to have to find some places to throw in a crusader into alot of the mix.

I'm looking forwards to the report!

 Cougar wrote:
Zelar, try the same combo with purifiers instead purgation squad (you dont really need the astral aim)....

Its not the astral aim that i want, its the 4 incinirators that i can place where ever i want that is amazing.

Zelar wrote:

Its not the astral aim that i want, its the 4 incinirators that i can place where ever i want that is amazing.

Why wouldn't you get that in a Purifier squad?

Coyote81 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:

Zelar wrote:
Havent read all thread, but with 6th i think Purgation squad got very very good. I use 10 of them in a stormraven with 4 inicinirators, get the teleporter beacon upgrade, psybolt ammo and then i DS them from the stromraven without scatter almost anywhere since the stormraven is so fast now when zooming. I usually take out a full squad of MEQ in one shooting phase. If you want assault protection (more then 4 D3 STR6 auto hits AP4), add an HQ to provide it

Try it, it's silly good. The tactical advantage is amazing,

You may want to check the wording on the teleport beacon, you can only use it on strike squads, interceptors, and terminators. Purifiers and purgation squads don't actually get to use it. Some may even argue that it only works when comming in from reserves via fluff but I'm not sure that matters too much.

The FAQ for purgation squad still pisses me off. Things with stealth and shrouding shouldn't get any benefit when using astral aim not just during night fighting. If they just took out the nightfighting word in there, I'd happily incorporate purgation squads into the mix

I checked this one a long time back - the teleport homer only works for Interceptors and Dreadknights with Personal Teleporters. No one else uses a "teleport" move besides them.

Gk terminators and Strikesquads both DS using teleporting. (Strikesquads count only because the teleport homers specifically calls them out on it)

Well i dont DS them from reserves, i use the stormravens abillity Shadow skies: Grey knights codex p37. Teleport homer makes units using shadow skies not to scatter!
It wasent usefull before because the stormraven wasent fast enough, now it is


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

Zelar wrote:

Its not the astral aim that i want, its the 4 incinirators that i can place where ever i want that is amazing.

Why wouldn't you get that in a Purifier squad?

Purifier dont get the homer, so shadows skies becomes less effective..

Zelar wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

Zelar wrote:

Its not the astral aim that i want, its the 4 incinirators that i can place where ever i want that is amazing.

Why wouldn't you get that in a Purifier squad?

Purifier dont get the homer, so shadows skies becomes less effective..

Wait, you're saying you use the teleport homer on the Purgation squad to drop the same purgation squad out of the stormraven?

Are you 100% sure it works that way? Like, literally, 100% sure?

I didn't think teleport homers worked for Shadow Skies, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

I am 100% sure that teleport homers don't do anything for the squad you bought them for. Either that, or I REALLY need to read stuff more closely.

doh, im so sorry.. ive missread it :(
Its personal teleporters, not teleport homers that makes you not to scatter when using shadow skies.

Should have known, if something looks to good to be true.........

I hate it when that happens.

For what it's worth, you had me really excited there for a moment.

you can still do it with a single interceptor squad and an incinerator perhaps XD

I've done that before and just dropped them next to tanks with a psycannon though incinerator can work too I guess.

jy2 wrote:
Just played against a very tough, triple dreadknight list at a 1750 tournament recently:

1750 Tournament - Double-Trouble Chaos Dynamic Duo

Coteaz
Grandmaster Mordrak
4x Ghost Knights - 1x Brotherhood Banner

3x Henchmen - 3x Plasmas, Chimera (Coteaz here)
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/TL-Assault Cannon
3x Henchmen - Razorback w/TL-Assault Cannon
3x Henchmen - Psyback (TL-Heavy Bolters w/Psybolt Ammo)
3x Henchmen - Psyback
3x Henchmen - Psyback

Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter


Battle report will be out probably tomorrow. Check it out and let me know what you think about his list and how I did.

Looked at the report JY2, nicely done! However, I kept scratching my head at the way that gk guy played it and really agree with the bottom comment here that was on your thread too.

It is killing me how poorly your opponent opted to play his Dreadknights in this one. There was no reason at all with a Torrent weapon to get in those ruins - get behind them.

Also, Shunt all 3 Dreadknights at once - that will burn out a huge chunk of the zombie unit which protects the Dreadknights from a charge with the Abaddon blob - and provides a huge counter assault threat to finish them off. Finally, Mordrak does not scatter, he should have been behind the Shunted Dreadknights turn 1 and then piled into a brutal combat Turn 2...

I've seen zombie lists with Typhys/oblits and hellturkies before too and the biggest threats are really the oblits and knowing the chaos powers. Generally these lists are really slow with just 1-2 fast movers to get around like spawn and flyer and generally best faught with focused firing top priority units like the oblits. After those are done, then can work on the spawn unless they get close and helldrakes when it shows up and other targets are dealt with.

While oblits are tough, especially nurge ones, they still only really have a 5+ cover most of the time and no invul. While it will take quite a bit of shooting, plasma cannons still do well vs them or weight of fire to get past the 2+ and wounds. IG arty like medusa seige guns are brutal vs them but in a fight like the one this game had, charging them with a DK would be the best option.

While it certainly looks like he tried a refused flank, he was not really refusing as much as calypso or I probably would have either. He's not screening his guys properly and not using your army to block for his units. Zombie list mobility issues should have been better used. Stay out of 12' double tap plasma and chaos wind range FFS is what I kept thinking to myself.

I'm gonna have to go put it up again in big bold letters that coteaz can't use his IBEY inside a ride. That's been that way since they changed mind in the macine back in 5th. I'm surprised people are still doing it the old way.

Definately a fun game. I think you just out played him Jy2. Good job! Come back to GK after the BAO, I'm interested to see what you end up with for purifiers or if it's gonna be kind of like what I'm doing with them now. I've always had a soft spot for them but really just using as elites for the most part now.

Highlight or a game today, my 5 man strike squad getting charged by a chaos lord on jugger with all the bells and whistles, lucky for me I gave my justicar a halberd and accepted the challenge. Needing 5's to hit and 5s to wound, I manage to roll 2 6's. Now he had his 4+ invun which he promptly failed allowing me to roll a double 1 for force weapons, killing his might lord but also killing the unfortunate justicar, was quite funny to see.

Here is a campaign list i 'm playing right now and overall is working well with various opponents... I tried to make an all around list cause in the campaign i have many different factions to compete against... So far it works well and the only major problem is against lists with 2-3 helldrakes (with flamer) but the only solution i guess to that is putting a Stormraven in place of the land raider.

HQ
Brotherhood Champion (empyrean brain mines)

Troops
Grey Knight Strike Squad (Justicar with Halberd - 2x Psycannons - Psy Ammu)
Grey Knight Strike Squad (Justicar with Halberd - 2x Psycannons - Psy Ammu)

Elites
Purifiers (6x Halberds - 4x Incinerators)
Vindicare Assassin

Heavy
Land Raider Redeemer (Multimelta - searchlight)
Dreadnought (2x TL Autocannon - psy ammu - searchlight)
Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator - Greatsword - Teleporter)

Buildings
Aegis Defense Line (quad gun)


Notes
Land Raider has the Purifiers and Brotherhood Champion.
Dreadknight usually kills a whole unit of troops in 2 turns leaving it free to assault again in its next turn (assaulting always with hammer of wrath).
Vindicare assassin is the best all around solution for (almost) everything.
In games with many objectives GKSS can be divided in combat squads.
Dreadnought behind aegis is sweet with its S8 weapons (4+ to save the glancing and penetration wounds).

Anyway, any suggestion i am happy to hear!

Why do you want a brotherhood champion?
He has only 1 wound, limited physic ability as he doesn't have access to divination. His main advantage is his dueling ability but even that has it's limits due to his 1 wound.

For the same points i'd recommend Coteaz who is an amazing psyker when you take 2 divination powers, he helps seize the initiative. For instance, you can put him in a GKSS and make everyone's guns twin-linked plus another divination power.
Or for 110 points I'd also recommend an Ordo maleus Inquistor with Terminator armor, psycannon, psyker level 1 (divination) and a force sword.

They don't have 4 toughness and Strength but otherwise they are both great force multipliers with divination and have good ranged attacks.

Just my opinion, but i thought it might give you some ideas.

Agree, for 100 points Coteaz seems a much better option, the psychic buffs are so much better than what the champion can do.

You could also save points by swapping the quad gun for the lascannon, put both Coteaz and the vindicare in base with it, so you can either shoot it with BS8 and pick your target with no los, or coteaz can shoot it twice at reserves coming within 12 inch.

I used a land raider crusader the other day with my paladins playing draigowing for the first time, I actually won as my opponent could ne crack the raider before Draigo and company charged out and mopped up everything in cc, however in your list, I think a second dreadknight would be better.

Coteaz is another good solution i admit. I play him a lot and the 2 divination spells are awesome.

Brotherhood Champion is a cc specialist. His squad reroll to hit on their assault and he always rerolls his to wound without psychics and stuff... He is an awesome character killer with his rapier strike and he can be invulnerable also to deadly foes since he has 2+rerollable to save and 3+rerollable invu in cc if you just want to live when others charge you!! He can lock a CC squad always forever! And i love the chance of 3+ to remove as casualty any IC you have in base contact when nad if you die.

@tuiman can you explain me how you believe coteaz could use the quad gun a second time with his ability i've been expecting you? One time you shoot with the interceptor rule of quad gun. Are you sure you can shoot again in the same phase with i've been expecting you rule?

 sudojoe wrote:

Looked at the report JY2, nicely done! However, I kept scratching my head at the way that gk guy played it and really agree with the bottom comment here that was on your thread too.

It is killing me how poorly your opponent opted to play his Dreadknights in this one. There was no reason at all with a Torrent weapon to get in those ruins - get behind them.

Also, Shunt all 3 Dreadknights at once - that will burn out a huge chunk of the zombie unit which protects the Dreadknights from a charge with the Abaddon blob - and provides a huge counter assault threat to finish them off. Finally, Mordrak does not scatter, he should have been behind the Shunted Dreadknights turn 1 and then piled into a brutal combat Turn 2...

I've seen zombie lists with Typhys/oblits and hellturkies before too and the biggest threats are really the oblits and knowing the chaos powers. Generally these lists are really slow with just 1-2 fast movers to get around like spawn and flyer and generally best faught with focused firing top priority units like the oblits. After those are done, then can work on the spawn unless they get close and helldrakes when it shows up and other targets are dealt with.

While oblits are tough, especially nurge ones, they still only really have a 5+ cover most of the time and no invul. While it will take quite a bit of shooting, plasma cannons still do well vs them or weight of fire to get past the 2+ and wounds. IG arty like medusa seige guns are brutal vs them but in a fight like the one this game had, charging them with a DK would be the best option.

While it certainly looks like he tried a refused flank, he was not really refusing as much as calypso or I probably would have either. He's not screening his guys properly and not using your army to block for his units. Zombie list mobility issues should have been better used. Stay out of 12' double tap plasma and chaos wind range FFS is what I kept thinking to myself.

I'm gonna have to go put it up again in big bold letters that coteaz can't use his IBEY inside a ride. That's been that way since they changed mind in the macine back in 5th. I'm surprised people are still doing it the old way.

Definately a fun game. I think you just out played him Jy2. Good job! Come back to GK after the BAO, I'm interested to see what you end up with for purifiers or if it's gonna be kind of like what I'm doing with them now. I've always had a soft spot for them but really just using as elites for the most part now.

I think the main thing is that I am more sneaky than he is.

Actually, I was prepared for if he had overloaded 1 side, because that would probably be what I would do as well. No matter what he did, I would have tied him up with zombies to buy time for my characters (or just Abaddon) to get into the action. Then my oblits would have just shot up his vechicles to demech his troops and also for First Blood. In any case, no matter what he did (besides to stay back and shoot), I was ready for him if he were to play aggressively.

Yeah, after the BAO, I am definitely giving my purifiers a second look.

 Cougar wrote:
@tuiman can you explain me how you believe coteaz could use the quad gun a second time with his ability i've been expecting you? One time you shoot with the interceptor rule of quad gun. Are you sure you can shoot again in the same phase with i've been expecting you rule?

Actually, it's the other way around. First, you shoot with IBEY. And you can do it as many times as units come from reserves within 12" of him. Then, at the end of the (opponents) movement phase, you may use Interceptor to shoot at any unit that has arrived from reserves. Funnily enough, if Coteaz' unit is charged, he may even use that Quad gun for overwatch, even if he used the Interceptor special rule.

Luide wrote:

 Cougar wrote:
@tuiman can you explain me how you believe coteaz could use the quad gun a second time with his ability i've been expecting you? One time you shoot with the interceptor rule of quad gun. Are you sure you can shoot again in the same phase with i've been expecting you rule?

Actually, it's the other way around. First, you shoot with IBEY. And you can do it as many times as units come from reserves within 12" of him. Then, at the end of the (opponents) movement phase, you may use Interceptor to shoot at any unit that has arrived from reserves. Funnily enough, if Coteaz' unit is charged, he may even use that Quad gun for overwatch, even if he used the Interceptor special rule.

Pretty much this, Coteaz and a well kitted out henchman group is deadly with a quadgun.

Cougar: your list overall should play pretty well but just be careful with your troops as they are somewhat fragile with just power armor and you only got 20 bodies. Either coteaz would be a fine 100 points to replace the brother champ or just keep the brother champ with the purifiers in the land raider as a "death star unit" It's still possible to run them fairly effectively.

I'm not entirely sold on the incinerators as I feel your list will need more psycannons but if using as assault, maybe go 2x incinerators and 2 psycannons just for points? In some sort of assault unit like that, I'd have at least 1 hammer just cause you will run into all sorts of stuff that may need smashing.

While the redeemer is kind of fun, I think the crusader with possible psybolts will be a better deal as you don't really need to flame things the assault unit is going to charge anyway. Hordes are handled by the purifiers. The marines are handled by the AP3 halberds. You don't fare well vs terminators with purifiers but some rapid fire bolters with weight of fire will trim down a few terminators before you have to tangle with them. Also a crusader can potentially down fliers fairly well as long as it's not the AV 12 variety and in the current config, you don't have a ton of anti-air so a crusader may help with that a little bit.

To get the points for all of this, I'd consider swapping out the great sword on the DK and perhaps go with lascannon instead of the quad gun? I'd almost use some sort of combat squad with a bastion with some shooty squad of strikes on top firing psycannons and lascannon and the other half just camping an objective.

----------------------------------

On the flip side of things, In an effort to deal with noise marines and helldrakes spam that I'm anticipating in the very near future, I'm thinking of brining back good old Draigo.

Yep, you heard me, bringing back the paladins in this crazy str 8 ignoring covering lots of plasma and fliers world of ours.

My thinking is a bit different than before and using Draigo completely differently and I've done in the past. Essentially he's just there to be a giant bullet sink kind of like Abbadon does in some other lists (cough Jy2) and also to get me 55 point scoring units. solo paladins who's job is to simply camp behind LOS as much as possible.

The tripple henchmen have traditionally been what I've used and going from something like 12 points to 55 points may seem like alot but I'm also moving into something like a hybrid mech list again. People are very used to using cheap to counter cheap and flamers/noise marines/or just MSU bolters are making a mockery of my small squads.

A paladin essentially ignores alot of this and with some decent LOS terrain, you can hide 1 man units pretty well at least locally here anyway. Or just use a bastion if needed. It takes alot more than 5 guys with bolters to take out a paladin. Even 3 man plasma guns won't necessarily take out a paladin unless you get into rapid fire range. Paladins will also ignore the AP3 noise marines as well as helldrakes along with longer range autocannon fires. Will be a big rougher vs plasma cannons but few of those are mobile enough to trap my one man squad from moving elsewhere to hopefully get out of range. Eldar lances will still be a pain but I'm hopeful the mech/long range firepower of my MSU units will take them down. while a solo paladin won't really hold up vs say a necron destroyer lord + wraiths in your face by turn 2 and in those cases, 2-3 henchmen are much better throw away units, I often find I can deal with the death star well enough by focus firing on them. I end up losing the objectives game later on cause the damn night scythes show up and instant gib by 3 man squads trying to get out of LOS but often have no way to truely hide from fliers. With all the tesla shots, they die pretty fast. Now doomscythe and the death ray will still fry a paladin, I can still try to make a 4+ cover usually while my henchmen usuaully gets hit with 2 str 10 and then 4 more str 7 tesla shots that they don't really survive well even going to ground. Heck, the paladin can go to ground too so it's 3+ cover all around but 2+ armor vs 3+ cover from the teslas make a big difference.

What do you guys think? Essentially a coteaz list but with draigo replacing a DK and some 1-3 solo paladins to hold down objectives. Backbone as a shooty army with chimeras/razorbacks along with DK+auto dread (which can now be scoring as well) + storm raven for other heavy hitters. Draigo is not quite the same as a DK of course but he is still a nice threat vs most things other than other terminators which I plan to handle with plasma servitors and plasma henchmen along with some psycannon spam with purifiers in a chimera.

Excuse me for not reading the whole 57 pages so it might be there, but can techmarine's deep strike? The first post talks about deepstriking him with mordrak but to my knowledge techmarines cant deepstrike.

Kind of agree about draigo, in my local group we have a chaos player who has finally picked up his first hell drake, and is probably going to get two (who can blame him). So I have switched to a draigo list with 5 paladins, 2 solodins, coteaz, vindicare, and then strikes/henchman support, raven and dreadknight.

It works much better as all the AP# he has just bounces of the paladin armour, he even ran two fiends with triple plasma, but with appropriate spacing i manged to only take a few wounds on draigo before killing them both.

If the meta does shift to more chaos players and triple hell turkys, then I think a switch back to draigo and co might not be such a bad move, otherwise just go back to full henchman spam with so many redundant bodies you dont mind losing a few.

 pizzaguardian wrote:
Excuse me for not reading the whole 57 pages so it might be there, but can techmarine's deep strike? The first post talks about deepstriking him with mordrak but to my knowledge techmarines cant deepstrike.

you are correct! I typoed techmarine when I was thinking librarian XD The error has been corrected.

 tuiman wrote:
The whole force weapon thing just made my day, also the vinicare ruling, picked one up the other day for $3 not thinking I would use it all the time, not any more

Were there changes to force weapons? What were they? I flipped through the FAQs (well, not really flipped, given that it's a PDF, but you're picking up what I'm putting down) but I didn't see any FW changes.

You cant take feel no pain against them, there was a huge discussion about it here. People were saying you could as the original wound was not an instant death wound until the weapon has been activated.

I came up with an "interesting solution to noise marines" but unfortunately doesn't cover up for the helldrake but anyways, it's essentially 2 squads of DCA + crusaders using a land raider crusader as an assault bus. This was also with a grand master that gave both things scout move.

Turn one, the first squad in the land raider moves up and pop smoke/snap fires things or otherwise seek cover and potential charge targets (driving towards them)

the 2nd squad runs right behind the land raider and due to mass of the damn thing, will usually be out of LOS with a decent run move.

Turn 2, the 1st DCA squad assaults out of the land raider, and then the 2nd squad gets onboard from the back/side doors.

Turn 3, the 2nd DCA squad assaults out of the land raider again hopefully surviving meltas/lascannons while the 1st squad's remains (it was vs MSU so they usually just straight up won combat and got shot up a bit). Tried to get back onboard again.

Probably not gonna be all that effective vs faster armies but it was a nice change of pace from my regular gun lines play.

In three days i will play a match of 2000pts with a Dark Angel player. Any recommendations?

 Cougar wrote:
In three days i will play a match of 2000pts with a Dark Angel player. Any recommendations?

Coteaz and strike squads, good chance or going first and create a warp quake bubble to prevent the deathwing. It really depends on what he brings, the old psyfleman could be great if he takes lots of speeders, flyers etc.

Stormraven could be very usefull as his flyers are not as good, and the melta would be very helpfull if he takes raiders.

Do you know what sort of stuff he would bring? The DA codex has so much variety its hard to make a list for it.

Not really... because i know personally him, he will bring the most cheezy stuff... i expect deathwing first round via deep strike and ravenwing maybe....

I would assume deathwing as its the most common, so you need to bring lots of ap2 guns, which unfortunately, gk dont have a lot of.

A good option would be an inquisitor with the upgrade to give him powers, and give him prescience from divination. Put him in a squad with 3 plasma cannon servitors, 3 plasma gun acolytes, and then 5 standard bolter acolytes for meatsheild. This whole unit is only 177 points including the inquisitor, bit puts out 3 plasma shots, 3 plasma blasts, and 4 bolter shots a turn,and all twin-linked!!!

Even better put coteaz in the unit and you can shoot the terminators as soon as they come in from reserve. Coupled with a few 10 man strike squads with warp quake would make a good defense base against the deathwing.

what about 3xDreadknights ?

Could i get your opinions on my 1500 and 1750 list? Thanks

Squad 1
110 1 inquistor w terminator armor, psycannon, hammer and 1 divination
225 5 Terminators with psy cannon

Squad 2
100 1 Coteaz with 2 Divination
240 10 man GKSS with 2 psycannons and psybolt

Squad 3
80 8 bolter acolytes and 4 psykers

Fast Attack
205 Stormraven w TL LC and TL MM
150 Interceptor Squad with incenarator

Back Line
270 2 Psyriflemen
20 5 warrior acoltyes maning quad
100 Aegis with quadgun

Total
1500

For 1750 points i'll add
50pts 10 bolter acoyltes
200pts Dreadknight with Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon

Heres what ive been thinking after i got Stomped by this list with my nids

HQ
Cotez
Libarian
-Shrouding
-Santuary
-Quick silver
-flamer templete 1Cotez


Troops
5
Razorbacks
Heavybolter
Pysbolt
3 warrior accoyleres

8
Strike squad
1 pyscannon

10 Purifers
4 psycannons
2 hammers rest halberds

Stormraven
Heavybolter
hurricane bolters
assault cannon
Pysbolt

2
Autocannon
Dreadnoughts

Vindicare assassin

Defense line Quad Gun
This is what i use for my 1850 list

Park Everything Behind the line and give everything a 3 Plus cover sav e thats to the shrouding.

I'm wondering if I could get any input on my list:


HQ:
Coteaz
Crowe
---250

Troops:
10 Purifiers
+9 Halberds
+KotF - MC Halberd, Digital Weapons
+Psybolt
---290

10 Purifiers
+9 Halberds
+KotF - MC Halberd, Digital Weapons
+Psybolt
---290

Henchman
+4 Crusaders
+7 Death Cult Assassins
---165

Henchman
+7 Psykers
_Chimera w/ Multi-laser, HB
---125

Fast Attack:
Stormraven
+Psybolt
+TL MM
---225

LRC
+Psybolt
---260

LRR
+Psybolt
---250

Crowe wanders, Purifiers are in LRR and Stormraven, C+DCA henchman unit are in the LRC with Coteaz, and the Psykers roll around blasting things, assuming they don't kill themselves. Is there a better way to spend those 125 points? I could do Draigowing with Dreadknights and make the DKs scoring, since they have 4 S10 AP2 attacks with the sword (which I like). I also like the Purifiers, though.

Drop the psybolt on the raven, I prefer to keep it cheap, melta and lascannon.

I dont really like purifier lists in 6th tbh Crowe give up warlord kill to easy, and you probably need transports to make them work, but now you cant score, can charge after getting out, and are easier to kill.

Also where are the psycannons?!!

 tuiman wrote:
Drop the psybolt on the raven, I prefer to keep it cheap, melta and lascannon.

I dont really like purifier lists in 6th tbh Crowe give up warlord kill to easy, and you probably need transports to make them work, but now you cant score, can charge after getting out, and are easier to kill.

Also where are the psycannons?!!

The Psycannons are the Assault Cannons with Psybolt. On the SR I hope it helps with dealing with enemy fliers, and the two on the LR's will help eat away at any ground forces. Also, I think crowe will definitely survive any challenge he enters, but against whole units, (or plasma weapons), nicht so gut.

Problem with crowe is where are you going to put him, just hanging around leave him open to being shot to death, he would have to footslog without his own ride, and a good opponent can just ignore him, or shoot him. I cant think of many games that he manages to survive.

Just my 2 cents.

 tuiman wrote:
Problem with crowe is where are you going to put him, just hanging around leave him open to being shot to death, he would have to footslog without his own ride, and a good opponent can just ignore him, or shoot him. I cant think of many games that he manages to survive.

Just my 2 cents.

I've had a game where I forgot to deploy him from reserves as he was cleverly hidden behind a Diet Coke Can. (he was supposed to be comming in with the storm raven as a passenger and while I played the storm raven as my typical gun boat, I forgot he was supposed to be inside the thing until I got thirsty around turn 6 and picked up the drink.) Does that count as surviving?

While I like the LRR I just don't see it as effective as it should be. Crusaders are much better for 10 more points unfortunately now that you get so snap fire so much stuff. Str 5 twin linked hurricane bolters are still pretty good and can glance fliers occassionally even. I'd probably find the points by dropping digital weapons or master crafted halberds for my purifiers. A DK would be a pretty good asset if you find another way of moving your other assault squad of purifiers around. Maybe just have them foot slog it behind the Land raider for LOS blocking? They can always embark the turn the current unit disembarks to assault something and then charge out of it next turn gaining some movement through pivoting of the land raider (if it survives).

Ok, so I have devised a new list with Draigo and a DK. Check it out:

Coteaz
Draigo
---375

Vindicare Assassin
---145

6 Paladins
+ 1 MC NDH
+ 3 Halberd
+ 2 Sword
+ 2 Psycannons
---375

Henchman
+ 4 Crusaders
+ 8 DCAs
---180

Henchman
+ 4 Crusaders
+ 8 DCAs
---180

Stormraven
+Psybolt
+TL MM
---225

LRC
+Psybolt
---260

Dreadknight
+Personal teleporter
+Sword
+Heavy Incinerator
---260

I'd then use GS to make the DK scoring, since it's the only one that can be targeted.

I'd maybe make one of the paladins into a solo one man unit to give you some more tacitcal flexibility when you need to cap some objectives (especially as your DCA/crusaders will likely be pretty depleted after killing other units and getting shot at alot since they are still somewhat fragile and are your scoring units.

With this kind of list you invariably have to try to roll up a flank. It'd work decent vs stuff like hordes of orks and needs some decent terrain cover. If exposed to fast hard hitters that have long range like Tau or lance spam eldar/dark eldar, this kind of list would suffer a bit. VS IG parking lots it'd be how well you can stay out of LOS for the most part. Not sure the vindicare will be doing much as he's almost going to be the biggest target most of the enemy long range shooting or other threats for the first turn or 2.

You guys are in for a treat of a battle report. Just got a game in against Blackmoor. Blackmoor is a very, very good GK player and successful tournament player as well. He got 3rd place at the Bay Area Open GT in both 2012 and 2011. He also got 2nd in Comikaze last year and 5th in Nova (out of 204!).

I brough my tyranids. He brought the evolution of his Draigowing GK's, only now he's running Coteaz instead. His 1750 List:


Coteaz
Grandmaster - Psycannon

10x Paladins - 4x Psycannons, Banner, Stave, Hammers & Halberds

10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt

Psyfleman Dread
Psyfleman Dread


Check out my report in the Batreps forum coming soon!

Cant be draigowing, no draigo :p

Interesting list, and if anyone knows how to play gk its blackmoor, cant wait to see

Huh. I like it other than Coteaz. I guess he can camp out with the psycannons and shoot at things trying to be sneaky, but I feel like he was just kind of tacked on. I look forward to your battle report.

 tuiman wrote:
Cant be draigowing, no draigo :p

Interesting list, and if anyone knows how to play gk its blackmoor, cant wait to see

Yeah, I guess a better name would be his "Draigo-less Draigowing".

But really, I'm just going to call it his GK Paladinstar.

 daedalus wrote:
Huh. I like it other than Coteaz. I guess he can camp out with the psycannons and shoot at things trying to be sneaky, but I feel like he was just kind of tacked on. I look forward to your battle report.

Coteaz is still a very good buy no matter what GK build you take. He mainly took it to help combat the new competitive daemons, but Prescience on a unit with 5 psycannons (including GKGM) is just devastatingly nasty. Then imagine if he also gets Misfortune or the power that ignores cover saves.

The GKGM can always make the paladinstar scoring as well.

scollom wrote:
Could i get your opinions on my 1500 and 1750 list? Thanks

Squad 1
110 1 inquistor w terminator armor, psycannon, hammer and 1 divination
225 5 Terminators with psy cannon

Squad 2
100 1 Coteaz with 2 Divination
240 10 man GKSS with 2 psycannons and psybolt

Squad 3
80 8 bolter acolytes and 4 psykers

Fast Attack
205 Stormraven w TL LC and TL MM
150 Interceptor Squad with incenarator

Back Line
270 2 Psyriflemen
20 5 warrior acoltyes maning quad
100 Aegis with quadgun

Total
1500

For 1750 points i'll add
50pts 10 bolter acoyltes
200pts Dreadknight with Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon

Drop Psybolt on the Terminators, put a single assassin in the Acolytes. Those are two small changes I would make.

After my list getting smashed because i was facing abaddon with no good close combat characters I've decided to go for a GK GM and i've retooled my 1500 point list. This list is being used in a escalation torney. I started the torney with 5 termies and Coteaz with Divination for 445 points. Let's just say DE didn't like it when i had rerolls to hit and ignores cover. Please give feedback on my list.

Here is my 1500 point list:

Squad 1
195 GK GM + incenerator + psykotrope
225 5 Terminators with psycannon, 3 Halberds

Squad 2
100 1 Coteaz with 2 Divination
245 10 man GKSS with 2 psycannons and psybolt + halberd

Squad 3
50 5 psykers Str7 ap 2 blast
56 Chimera with Searchlight

Fast Attack
206 Stormraven w TL LC, TL MM and a Searchlight
150 Interceptor Squad with incenarator

Back Line
272 2 Psyriflemen w searchlights

Total
1499