Godless-Mimicry wrote:Again why bother when you can drop it on a Raven's wing and the Raven suffers no ill effects?

BTW, ye do know you can't shoot into combat right, even if you are targetting your own guy?

Karamazov's rule explicitly allows you to target a friendly model in close combat with his bombardment.

Grey Templar wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Again why bother when you can drop it on a Raven's wing and the Raven suffers no ill effects?

BTW, ye do know you can't shoot into combat right, even if you are targetting your own guy?

Karamazov's rule explicitly allows you to target a friendly model in close combat with his bombardment.

Just checked it and you are right, never say that part of his rule. Still, I'd much rather target my Raven that can't be hurt by it than harm any expensive models, especially since you only have keep the Raven's base 1" away, but can target any part of the hull. Gives a lot of options. Team this with 2+ Psyker squads and you can be raining down fire on the enemy.

Stoffer wrote:

Red Comet wrote:Blessings and Maledictions state that they last until the following turn so this means they last 2 player turns. Prescience will work on the opposing player's turn and they are all cast during the movement phase so the powers do not expire in the movement phase.

Interesting. The way it reads makes it look like you cannot use psychic powers outside of your turn anymore?

As far as powers classified by the BRB that would seem to be the case unless the power explicitly states otherwise from what I can tell.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Again why bother when you can drop it on a Raven's wing and the Raven suffers no ill effects?

BTW, ye do know you can't shoot into combat right, even if you are targetting your own guy?

Karamazov's rule explicitly allows you to target a friendly model in close combat with his bombardment.

Just checked it and you are right, never say that part of his rule. Still, I'd much rather target my Raven that can't be hurt by it than harm any expensive models, especially since you only have keep the Raven's base 1" away, but can target any part of the hull. Gives a lot of options. Team this with 2+ Psyker squads and you can be raining down fire on the enemy.

You can't do it with the Psyker squads since you can't declare Skyfire with template or blast weapons, which Psykic Barrage counts as - a psyking shooting weapon.

Also, doesn't this mean you can't target the Storm Raven to drop the Orbital Bombardment on?

Red Comet wrote:

Stoffer wrote:

Red Comet wrote:Blessings and Maledictions state that they last until the following turn so this means they last 2 player turns. Prescience will work on the opposing player's turn and they are all cast during the movement phase so the powers do not expire in the movement phase.

Interesting. The way it reads makes it look like you cannot use psychic powers outside of your turn anymore?

As far as powers classified by the BRB that would seem to be the case unless the power explicitly states otherwise from what I can tell.

Yes, you can't use powers outside of your turn anymore since they did not catagorize them... Other than that, some powers may still be cast in the opponent's turn if stated explicitly, though. i.e. Sanctuary, Shrouding...

Enigwolf wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Again why bother when you can drop it on a Raven's wing and the Raven suffers no ill effects?

BTW, ye do know you can't shoot into combat right, even if you are targetting your own guy?

Karamazov's rule explicitly allows you to target a friendly model in close combat with his bombardment.

Just checked it and you are right, never say that part of his rule. Still, I'd much rather target my Raven that can't be hurt by it than harm any expensive models, especially since you only have keep the Raven's base 1" away, but can target any part of the hull. Gives a lot of options. Team this with 2+ Psyker squads and you can be raining down fire on the enemy.

You can't do it with the Psyker squads since you can't declare Skyfire with template or blast weapons, which Psykic Barrage counts as - a psyking shooting weapon.

Also, doesn't this mean you can't target the Storm Raven to drop the Orbital Bombardment on?

Flyers are just immune to template/blast weapons IIRC. They can still be targeted AFAIK.

Well here is my final list I guess for tomorrow's tournament.

Draigo 275

Paladin 10 man 550 (745)
1 Psycannon +20
3 MC Psycannons +75
Apoth +75
Banner +25

Paladin 2 man 110

Psyrifle Dread 115 (135)
Psybolts+5
Twin linked autocannon +10
Twin linked autocannon +5

Dreadknight 130 (235)
Teleporter +75
Heavy Incinerator +30

1500

Played a game last night where my math was apparently off and I had like +100 points. Whoops. 1500 pts feels pretty restrictive for Draigowing.

Also my psycannons were melting so much face, my stormbolters barely ever got to fire from the main squad.

Dreadnought got glanced to death from behind by Tau Firewarriors :|

Enigwolf wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Again why bother when you can drop it on a Raven's wing and the Raven suffers no ill effects?

BTW, ye do know you can't shoot into combat right, even if you are targetting your own guy?

Karamazov's rule explicitly allows you to target a friendly model in close combat with his bombardment.

Just checked it and you are right, never say that part of his rule. Still, I'd much rather target my Raven that can't be hurt by it than harm any expensive models, especially since you only have keep the Raven's base 1" away, but can target any part of the hull. Gives a lot of options. Team this with 2+ Psyker squads and you can be raining down fire on the enemy.

You can't do it with the Psyker squads since you can't declare Skyfire with template or blast weapons, which Psykic Barrage counts as - a psyking shooting weapon.

Also, doesn't this mean you can't target the Storm Raven to drop the Orbital Bombardment on?

Red Comet wrote:

Stoffer wrote:

Red Comet wrote:Blessings and Maledictions state that they last until the following turn so this means they last 2 player turns. Prescience will work on the opposing player's turn and they are all cast during the movement phase so the powers do not expire in the movement phase.

Interesting. The way it reads makes it look like you cannot use psychic powers outside of your turn anymore?

As far as powers classified by the BRB that would seem to be the case unless the power explicitly states otherwise from what I can tell.

Yes, you can't use powers outside of your turn anymore since they did not catagorize them... Other than that, some powers may still be cast in the opponent's turn if stated explicitly, though. i.e. Sanctuary, Shrouding...

Yeah so basically the new powers in the BYB are in your turn, but old codex specific powers can still be used whenever they were before.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Well here is my final list I guess for tomorrow's tournament.

Draigo 275

Paladin 10 man 550 (745)
1 Psycannon +20
3 MC Psycannons +75
Apoth +75
Banner +25

Paladin 2 man 110

Psyrifle Dread 115 (135)
Psybolts+5
Twin linked autocannon +10
Twin linked autocannon +5

Dreadknight 130 (235)
Teleporter +75
Heavy Incinerator +30

1500

Played a game last night where my math was apparently off and I had like +100 points. Whoops. 1500 pts feels pretty restrictive for Draigowing.

Also my psycannons were melting so much face, my stormbolters barely ever got to fire from the main squad.

Dreadnought got glanced to death from behind by Tau Firewarriors :|

Balls-y at 1500. Can I suggest. What about turning the Dreadknight into another psyrifle dread and add Coteaz into the deathstar for 2 divination powers. If you need to combat squad the star for a crusade or scouring game you can make a coteaz/psycannon shooty group and a draigo run into your face and smash buttholes group.

Goat wrote:

Balls-y at 1500. Can I suggest. What about turning the Dreadknight into another psyrifle dread and add Coteaz into the deathstar for 2 divination powers. If you need to combat squad the star for a crusade or scouring game you can make a coteaz/psycannon shooty group and a draigo run into your face and smash buttholes group.

Well, in the games I've been playing, Psyrifle Dreads haven't done much damage, and appear to be pretty fragile in 6th; to the point of getting blown up in a turn of shooting even with it in cover.

I was messing with Coteaz, and while Prescience is nice, I find I prefer just mastercrafting all of my psycannons, as I tend not to roll more than like 4 misses, and then I don't have to worry about getting shut down by eldar allies or perils every turn I'm rolling a psychic test.

In reference to adding another psyrifle, I was actually thinking about going with another dreadknight instead, lol. If I can fit it that is. Which I don't think I can really... too bad.

How do you throw your psycannon dice shots? Isn't it cheating to throw all 16 at once and picking 4 misses out and rerolling them? Wouldn't you have to roll them all seperately and re-roll only 1 miss per 4 shots? Who's to say one cannon didn't miss 3 times, you only get 1 to re-roll.

Goat wrote:How do you throw your psycannon dice shots? Isn't it cheating to throw all 16 at once and picking 4 misses out and rerolling them? Wouldn't you have to roll them all seperately and re-roll only 1 miss per 4 shots? Who's to say one cannon didn't miss 3 times, you only get 1 to re-roll.

yeah, you either have to have separate coloured dice for each master-crafted weapon or roll each separately.

Goat wrote:How do you throw your psycannon dice shots? Isn't it cheating to throw all 16 at once and picking 4 misses out and rerolling them? Wouldn't you have to roll them all seperately and re-roll only 1 miss per 4 shots? Who's to say one cannon didn't miss 3 times, you only get 1 to re-roll.

I mean, I guess it isn't cheating since that is how my game group and the guys at the FLGS I play at do it.

I throw all 16 then reroll 4 misses and remove the rest.

I mean, I guess it isn't cheating since that is how my game group and the guys at the FLGS I play at do it.

I throw all 16 then reroll 4 misses and remove the rest.

i don't actually like to call it cheating if done in ignorance of the fact that it makes master-crafting much more effective than it should be - but it does, so it's not right to do it that way (obviously if everyone you play is happy then that's okay locally but you may run into someone who expects it done properly and it may colour their view of you as a player if you're not doing it correctly).

I suppose I can attempt to convince them all to do it a different way; I guess they've never thought of doing it that way, just like I didn't.

I know a lot of people's first take is to do it your way, but it does skew things.

I mean for instance if you have two mc psycannon firing and you roll:

hit, hit, miss, miss
hit, hit, hit, hit

then you should only get one re-roll. But you'd get two you're way. Sometimes it does make no odds but it matters enough times to be worth getting right.

Dangit, now that I know this, I'll have to change the way I do it.

Why couldn't you just leave me in ignorance!? lol

Now thinking...

Draigo

10 Pal, 4MCPsy, Psybolts

1 Pal

Dreadknight Tele+Incin

Dreadknight Tele+Incin

1500

I'm figuring out I don't like playing at 1500, lol. Would like to throw in a Phobos LR or something for when I split the main squad for objectives... but not enough points. Usually my friends and I play around 1750-1800ish.

I'm finding I generally don't like taking the Paladins and Draigo as a giant deathstar, because of how much it tactically limits your options. You have this giant group with a 24" range, and everything you shoot at melts, but its hard to move around and through cover, you only get one shot per turn, etc. I'd rather run it as combat squads more often than not, and just run a deathstar if its for something I need super tanking for. Also, you can never put a 10 man into anything, at least I could stick a 5 man into a Phobos, and the 5 man with Draigo into a Redeemer.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:I know a lot of people's first take is to do it your way, but it does skew things.

A friend of mine still tries to insist that's how it's actually done, but I don't usually care because my Paladins eat his Sang. Guard alive anyway

Well tested out the first list tonight, pretty much had the game wrapped up besides a crazy last move from a jetpack troops squad of BAngels that snagged an objective.

Got first blood, Slay the Warlord, and had one Objective. He managed to snag two; oh well.

Psycannons massacred things as usual, psyrifle dread did well almost wrecking a Baal pred on its first round of shooting; Dreadknight cut apart a landraider and a few TH/SS terms before going down.

Was playing Crusade with 3 objectives.

I've been thinking about this, I know that each GK squad only counts as 1 Psyker because of Brotherhood of Psykers when it comes to the Culexus Assassin's attack. How about the Inquisitorial Henchmen Psykers? Do they count as Brotherhood of Psykers too or do each of them count as a single psyker?

The reason why I'm asking this is because people commonly field 8 in a squad, which gives a nice bonus to the Culexus Assassin's attack...

Enigwolf wrote:I've been thinking about this, I know that each GK squad only counts as 1 Psyker because of Brotherhood of Psykers when it comes to the Culexus Assassin's attack. How about the Inquisitorial Henchmen Psykers? Do they count as Brotherhood of Psykers too or do each of them count as a single psyker?

The reason why I'm asking this is because people commonly field 8 in a squad, which gives a nice bonus to the Culexus Assassin's attack...

I wish it worked this way but it does not unfortunately. Just counted as one for GK battle psykers.

As to the IG psykers they also have chior of psykers rule which prevents multiple counts too

Additional note:

Anyone have any requests on what unit they are curious for? I'm tempted to make some random builds to see what else can go well.

Eeeked out a narrow victory vs BA+IG, divination rerolls + first rank fire, second rank fire on a blobbed up squad is just silly. Tried to assaunt that 50 man monster was pretty tough, I just couldn't get my MSU purifiers in there to flame them. Luckily he played his valks wrong and hovered so I got the kill points in the end. I'll test play some other random elements and see what I come up with by request. Mind you I only do 1500 games. I feel kind of numb in the brain lately from watching so many hours of Olympics.

I'm curious to see how much chaos 4 assassins can wreak on an enemy army. lmao. Just for gaks and giggles.

Well you'll have to play 2000pts+ to find out.

Enigwolf wrote:I'm curious to see how much chaos 4 assassins can wreak on an enemy army. lmao. Just for gaks and giggles.

I shall give 3 assasins a try. Missing quite a bit of synergy given lack of techmarines or like an IG psyker battle squad but I will give it a shot anyway! Any particular 3?

So, new to GK and im looking for some list ideas. We play 2000pts locally, and this is the list i've used lately.
HQ:
Draigo-275
Coteaz-100
Elite:
Vindicare-145
Techmarine (beamer)-110
Troops:
10 man Paladin(4x psycannon)- 630
Henchman Squad (4 storm bolter acolytes, joakero,2 MM servi)- 83
Strike Squad- 100
Henchman Squad(4 s bolter acolytes, 1 acolyte, joakero, 2 psyker)- 87
Fast Attack:
Stormraven(MM,AC,HB)- 235
Heavy Support:
DK(incin,tele)-235
Total - 2000
Looking for any ideas, suggestions, complete changes that the more experienced GK players have for me. Also, been thinking about brining a 10man TH/SS termi squad ally

I don't understand your Henchmen squads as they are made up of models that have completely different roles to each other.

Beamer isn't worth it on a Tech Marine, as they are better off up in the action where all their tools can be used, than standing in the back corner all alone. Taking Rad and Psychotroke Grenades on him would be better.

Also get a few Hammers in your Paladins.

He probably does have Hammers, but just isn't showing the free upgrades.

I think henchmen in this kind of list should just be mostly used to snag objectives but I think he is trying to make them into his long range shooting blocks which replaces AC dreads

For draigowing, I tend to like a librarian and if I'm using cotez, I'd use the henchmen as mostly scoring in this kind of scenario. Maybe consider a few solo paladins for holding objectives too?

Godless-Mimicry wrote:I don't understand your Henchmen squads as they are made up of models that have completely different roles to each other.

Beamer isn't worth it on a Tech Marine, as they are better off up in the action where all their tools can be used, than standing in the back corner all alone. Taking Rad and Psychotroke Grenades on him would be better.

Also get a few Hammers in your Paladins.

I agree with the beamer here. I used it thinking premeasuring would make it usable. But the techy should be assaulting and enemies close the distance fast. You rarely if ever get the ap1 shot.

Hey guys, I actually managed to win the Tournament with my first list I posted.

Draigo
10 Pal (Banner, Apo, Psybolts, 4MCPsy)
1 Pal
Dreadknight (Tele, Sword, Incinerator)
Psyrifle Dreadnought

1st game was vs Chaos, not a very difficult battle.

2nd game vs Blood Angels with 2 Stormravens and barely anything on the ground. Dreadknight wiped out his allied guardsmen on the first turn of its shooting. Psycannons managed to bring down both Stormravens, one with Mephiston in it; who promptly died after that.

3rd game was vs Space Wolves "fallen" to chaos; so spiky bits on Space Wolves. Drop-pod assault took me by surprise, but the Dreadknight only took one wound from a squad of combi-melta terminators; in response he killed 5 terminators. The rest of the game went well with Draigo killing his character in a challenge; and then mopping up a significant amount of his troops.

Draigo and his squad were killing machines; mostly the Psycannons. And while I lost the Dreadknight every game, and the Dreadnought 2/3 games, they definitely took quite a bit away with them; and were excellent distractions while the deathmachine squad moved into position.

I had significant leads in terms of points in all 3 games, and had the most points overall so won best general; and got a medal

daedalus-templarius wrote:Hey guys, I actually managed to win the Tournament with my first list I posted.

Draigo
10 Pal (Banner, Apo, Psybolts, 4MCPsy)
1 Pal
Dreadknight (Tele, Sword, Incinerator)
Psyrifle Dreadnought

1st game was vs Chaos, not a very difficult battle.

2nd game vs Blood Angels with 2 Stormravens and barely anything on the ground. Dreadknight wiped out his allied guardsmen on the first turn of its shooting. Psycannons managed to bring down both Stormravens, one with Mephiston in it; who promptly died after that.

3rd game was vs Space Wolves "fallen" to chaos; so spiky bits on Space Wolves. Drop-pod assault took me by surprise, but the Dreadknight only took one wound from a squad of combi-melta terminators; in response he killed 5 terminators. The rest of the game went well with Draigo killing his character in a challenge; and then mopping up a significant amount of his troops.

Draigo and his squad were killing machines; mostly the Psycannons. And while I lost the Dreadknight every game, and the Dreadnought 2/3 games, they definitely took quite a bit away with them; and were excellent distractions while the deathmachine squad moved into position.

I had significant leads in terms of points in all 3 games, and had the most points overall so won best general; and got a medal

Awesome job! Glad to hear you did well. Any tips you wanna add to the front page btw?

sudojoe wrote:
Awesome job! Glad to hear you did well. Any tips you wanna add to the front page btw?

Dreadknight is absolutely amazing for distraction and taking out exposed models with its teleport pack. I was pretty down on him for a while, but now I wouldn't go without him.

Mastercrafted Psycannons on Paladin squads melt everything you point them at, pretty much. I would fire them all first, and more often than not, I didn't even need to follow up with bolters (with psybolts).

Dreadnoughts are pretty damn fragile now, both times it got popped, it got popped by one shot. Its a great addition, but you really need to be aggressive with getting it into cover. They seem really solid for popping transports and vehicles, but anything with an armor save seems to deny them pretty solidly.

The Grandmaster power, Hammer of Righteousness, paired with MCPsycannons, is absolutely devastating. On most things you only need 2s to wound, and rerolling all 1s basically is amazing.

Deathstar Draigo is a list people don't always like playing

Was a fun tournament though!

sudojoe wrote:I think henchmen in this kind of list should just be mostly used to snag objectives but I think he is trying to make them into his long range shooting blocks which replaces AC dreads

For draigowing, I tend to like a librarian and if I'm using cotez, I'd use the henchmen as mostly scoring in this kind of scenario. Maybe consider a few solo paladins for holding objectives too?

I do use them as scoring units in this list,but I've never used the henchman squads before. What are your preferred loadouts for them?
Are solo paladins that effective for holding objectives?

Are solo paladins that effective for holding objectives?

Not if they're sitting exposed to fire. But if they're hidden from most los within reach (ie a move through cover plus charge distance, say 6-8") of an objective they can do okay -- you need to place terrain and objectives with them in mind.

Will have to try that. The biggest issue I have had so far is dealing with the multiple tanks my IG friend brings. An Executioner, a Demolisher and two chimeras with melta vet squads. Suggestions?

I've a very stupid question.

If you add a beacon to the raven, the dropping rule, as it's treated like deepstriking, it's affected by it?

That means dropping very very well the embarked units.

DakotaBlue wrote:I've a very stupid question.

If you add a beacon to the raven, the dropping rule, as it's treated like deepstriking, it's affected by it?

That means dropping very very well the embarked units.

I think it works for embarked units, yes. At least I can't see why it wouldn't.

DakotaBlue wrote:I've a very stupid question.

If you add a beacon to the raven, the dropping rule, as it's treated like deepstriking, it's affected by it?

That means dropping very very well the embarked units.

I think that's a great question and I think it does work.

Wierdly enough it will not work for purifiers apparently by the rules as written. Paladins/terminators both would work (deep striking within 6' of the strom raven) as will strike squads and interceptors already don't scatter so that's kind of a cool trick. I'm surprised it hasn't really come up yet

If I recall correctly, the Teleport Homer on the Stormraven doesn't apply to its deepstrike-esque deployment because the rules explicitly state that it only affects teleport deepstrikes. I did ask this on a completely separate thread and the result I got was that Teleport Homers don't affect Stormraven deployments.

Here's the link: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/462949.page

I believe the Raven can take a Locater Beacon, which does work for Skies of Blood/Shadow Skies.

The codex says that GKSS, Interceptor Squads, or models in Terminator Armour wish to teleport on the battlefield via deepstrike and do it 6" of a model with homer, they won't scatter.

Then it sais that only works for units that are teleporting, not other means.

Now, deploying with the deepstrike from the shadow skies rule, counts as teleport, or just getting out of the ship?

DakotaBlue wrote:The codex says that GKSS, Interceptor Squads, or models in Terminator Armour wish to teleport on the battlefield via deepstrike and do it 6" of a model with homer, they won't scatter.

Then it sais that only works for units that are teleporting, not other means.

Now, deploying with the deepstrike from the shadow skies rule, counts as teleport, or just getting out of the ship?

Again, take a look at the link I posted previously to the thread where I asked this same question. tl;dr: Shadow Skies isn't a teleport.

I don't see teleporting defined as an actual rule or concept in the rulebook though.

Let's make it simple:

If the units are on the ship, they're already on the battlefield, and because of that, it does not work.

I guess that's the right thing, though I don't like it.

Again stuff that isn't defined within the rules. But really, I don't care, as I think anything flying in a Raven should be assaulting, and thus shouldn't be exiting in a fashion that stops them from assaulting.

Teliport homers are just horribly implimented.

having 2 differennt types of deepstriking(that are NOT clearly seperated) is just silly.

Especially since Locator Beacons work on all types of Deep Strikes, but Teliport Homers only work on Teliports. Mechanically its awkward and they should just replace all "Teliport Homer" entries with Locator Beacon.

But for assaulting, you've to make the raven go down, and pretty near to everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm gonna try a mix of a raven with AC, hurricane, psi ammo and melta with a land raider crusader, with psi ammo too. If I can hide it quickly behind a building next to an enemy point, his mission is done, and the paladins are inside.

So at the moment, I have 5 squads of 5 Purifiers with 2 psycannons, 2 halberds, and 1 daemon hammer each,
and 5 models with 2 halberds, 2 warding staffs, and 1 sword.

How about the warding staff? It could work in cc. Do you use it in 6th ed.?

I think there are two schools of thought on Purifiers.

One is that the psycannon should do the real work and that cleansing flame is enough for assault. So 2 psycannon and 3 swords should be fine.

The other is that they should be able to be an effective assault squad against tougher opposition and so adding 2 halberds and either a hammer or a stave to a squad is a good idea. The stave being to tie up opposing squads, the hammer to hopefully damage the harder to kill units.

Personally i'm not sure which I favour. The second is probably more common (though only with the hammer but challenges make the stave quite attractive now I think). But the idea with the former is I think so the squad inflicts some damage if it ends up in assault but is less likely to tie up the enemy, hence allowing the enemy unit to be shot in the next turn.

DakotaBlue wrote:But for assaulting, you've to make the raven go down, and pretty near to everything.

So? It doesn't care about Rapid Fire as such weapons can't hurt it bar the odd Plasma Gun, and it is immune to Melta's extra dice. It is still AV12, with a 5+ jink, and a big unit of Paladins most likely standing near it in the enemy's midst and wiping face in an assault. Who do you think they are going to shoot everything at? That's not to mention that if you really want it to survive, you have the rest of your army in the turn it drops to try and take out the things that threaten it. I've managed to successfully drop off my Paladins every game so far and I still haven't lost a Raven.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:But for assaulting, you've to make the raven go down, and pretty near to everything.

So? It doesn't care about Rapid Fire as such weapons can't hurt it bar the odd Plasma Gun, and it is immune to Melta's extra dice. It is still AV12, with a 5+ jink, and a big unit of Paladins most likely standing near it in the enemy's midst and wiping face in an assault. Who do you think they are going to shoot everything at? That's not to mention that if you really want it to survive, you have the rest of your army in the turn it drops to try and take out the things that threaten it. I've managed to successfully drop off my Paladins every game so far and I still haven't lost a Raven.

In my area there are lots of wolves, that's why I fear for the raven in the ground.

DakotaBlue wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:But for assaulting, you've to make the raven go down, and pretty near to everything.

So? It doesn't care about Rapid Fire as such weapons can't hurt it bar the odd Plasma Gun, and it is immune to Melta's extra dice. It is still AV12, with a 5+ jink, and a big unit of Paladins most likely standing near it in the enemy's midst and wiping face in an assault. Who do you think they are going to shoot everything at? That's not to mention that if you really want it to survive, you have the rest of your army in the turn it drops to try and take out the things that threaten it. I've managed to successfully drop off my Paladins every game so far and I still haven't lost a Raven.

In my area there are lots of wolves, that's why I fear for the raven in the ground.

Wolves would be one of the armies I'd fear the least shooting at it; Paladins are a no brainer shot for Missile Launcher or Lascannon Long Fangs, especially since at that time they are the most immediate threat, and not the Storm Raven, and that's on your end too; once you've dropped the pay-load unless there are a tonne of other enemy flyers that pay-load is now the priority unit.

I know you all love Draigo, so I drew a picture


http://galefire.com/2012/08/trials-of-draigo-reforging-the-titansword/

Blood and Slaughter wrote:I think there are two schools of thought on Purifiers.

One is that the psycannon should do the real work and that cleansing flame is enough for assault. So 2 psycannon and 3 swords should be fine.

The other is that they should be able to be an effective assault squad against tougher opposition and so adding 2 halberds and either a hammer or a stave to a squad is a good idea. The stave being to tie up opposing squads, the hammer to hopefully damage the harder to kill units.

Personally i'm not sure which I favour. The second is probably more common (though only with the hammer but challenges make the stave quite attractive now I think). But the idea with the former is I think so the squad inflicts some damage if it ends up in assault but is less likely to tie up the enemy, hence allowing the enemy unit to be shot in the next turn.

Many thanks for pointing out.
I'll leave the two staffs just in case I want to run larger Purifier units. They are always good for a challenge.

You drew that Daedalus?

Godless-Mimicry wrote:You drew that Daedalus?

Yea, I usually post my stuff in the art thread I have in General Discussion, but I figured I'd toss it in here since we all love GK

Glad you seem to like it

Goat wrote:I checked your thread out. You sir, have an amazing talent.

Thank you sir, hopefully after Gencon this year, I'll be doing some work for Fantasy Flight on their 40k RPG books/cards

I checked your thread out. You sir, have an amazing talent.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:But for assaulting, you've to make the raven go down, and pretty near to everything.

So? It doesn't care about Rapid Fire as such weapons can't hurt it bar the odd Plasma Gun, and it is immune to Melta's extra dice. It is still AV12, with a 5+ jink, and a big unit of Paladins most likely standing near it in the enemy's midst and wiping face in an assault. Who do you think they are going to shoot everything at? That's not to mention that if you really want it to survive, you have the rest of your army in the turn it drops to try and take out the things that threaten it. I've managed to successfully drop off my Paladins every game so far and I still haven't lost a Raven.

In my area there are lots of wolves, that's why I fear for the raven in the ground.

Wolves would be one of the armies I'd fear the least shooting at it; Paladins are a no brainer shot for Missile Launcher or Lascannon Long Fangs, especially since at that time they are the most immediate threat, and not the Storm Raven, and that's on your end too; once you've dropped the pay-load unless there are a tonne of other enemy flyers that pay-load is now the priority unit.

To add to this, I usually fly 2 Storm Ravens, one of which has TLHB, TLAC, Hurricane Bolters, and Psybolt Ammo. Typically, my opponents field 3 Long Fang squads - with the amount of firepower that this "shooty storm raven" can put out, it's typically enough to wipe 1.5 squads of Long Fangs sitting in 4+ or 5+ cover in its alphastrike. After which, mathhammer wise, my SW opponents are hardpressed to decide which Storm Raven to shoot down, especially if they decide to disembark their Paladins. Next turn, the rest of their Long Fangs will die.

Simply put, I'm just not worried about Long Fangs.

Had another game tonight, a practice game for the upcoming tournament as lists have to be in by Friday. Tried and new list and finally it seems to have all come together.

Faced Blood Angels in Big Guns Never Tire with the Hammer and Anvil deployment and 3 objectives. Managed to win 10-4. I came away from the game with no one unit standing out in my mind as the MVPs, which to me says a list is starting to work together well.

I can say one thing for sure, I love Draigo. Will put up a Battle Report soon.

Guys, I'm about to pit my Crowe Purifiers against a scythe-spam necron army.

Yes, I have accepted the milk challenge against this 10-flyer monstrosity of a list from this report:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/469911.page

Wish me luck guys.

What ground troops does he have? (listening to music so don't want to play the youtube video)

jy2 wrote:Guys, I'm about to pit my Crowe Purifiers against a scythe-spam necron army.

Yes, I have accepted the milk challenge against this 10-flyer monstrosity of a list from this report:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/469911.page

Wish me luck guys.

I've found that it's actually pretty easy to beat the airforce armies once you realize that the majority of their points are sunk in their flyers, and that they have few objective-holding units.

Enigwolf wrote:

jy2 wrote:Guys, I'm about to pit my Crowe Purifiers against a scythe-spam necron army.

Yes, I have accepted the milk challenge against this 10-flyer monstrosity of a list from this report:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/469911.page

Wish me luck guys.

I've found that it's actually pretty easy to beat the airforce armies once you realize that the majority of their points are sunk in their flyers, and that they have few objective-holding units.

And when they swarm the board leaving you nowhere to hide, what do you do when they shoot you to death? Plus don't make the assumption you have made above; this is the whole reason I just asked jy2 what ground troops his opponent has; remember 3 D-Scythes and 7 N-Scythes (the presumed set-up) is only just over 1200pts, leaving 600pts for ground forces, who have a lot less work to do when the 10 Scythes are shooting up anything that moves. And given their cheap cost, you can fit alot of Necrons into those last 500pts.

I think the key is not to panic. Grab the objectives and focus fire on the Flyers that can actually hurt you. If one can't make its turn to strafe you, ignore it till it swings back around.

Priority should go to the Doomscythes. Deathrays are nasty weapons.

Grey Templar wrote:I think the key is not to panic. Grab the objectives and focus fire on the Flyers that can actually hurt you. If one can't make its turn to strafe you, ignore it till it swings back around.

Priority should go to the Doomscythes. Deathrays are nasty weapons.

What he said.

I've played against a 9-flyer and a 10-flyer Necron lists. It's the Doom Scythes that's scary, not the Night Scythes.

9/10 flyers do not have that much maneuverability when they're all zooming around 18" to 36" - the trick is to concentrate on the DS's and take note of where they can fly. Also, remember that they're limited by their 45-degree firing arc. Flyers can be scary, yes, but they're also limited in their ability to move.

Enigwolf wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I think the key is not to panic. Grab the objectives and focus fire on the Flyers that can actually hurt you. If one can't make its turn to strafe you, ignore it till it swings back around.

Priority should go to the Doomscythes. Deathrays are nasty weapons.

What he said.

I've played against a 9-flyer and a 10-flyer Necron lists. It's the Doom Scythes that's scary, not the Night Scythes.

9/10 flyers do not have that much maneuverability when they're all zooming around 18" to 36" - the trick is to concentrate on the DS's and take note of where they can fly. Also, remember that they're limited by their 45-degree firing arc. Flyers can be scary, yes, but they're also limited in their ability to move.

Not as much as you'd think, all it takes is some getting used to; skilled play can get more mileage from them.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Had another game tonight, a practice game for the upcoming tournament as lists have to be in by Friday. Tried and new list and finally it seems to have all come together.

Faced Blood Angels in Big Guns Never Tire with the Hammer and Anvil deployment and 3 objectives. Managed to win 10-4. I came away from the game with no one unit standing out in my mind as the MVPs, which to me says a list is starting to work together well.

I can say one thing for sure, I love Draigo. Will put up a Battle Report soon.

I love him too, but I think most of my FLGS doesn't as much after the tournament, lol.

He's just too good with a bunch of Paladins behind him.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Had another game tonight, a practice game for the upcoming tournament as lists have to be in by Friday. Tried and new list and finally it seems to have all come together.

Faced Blood Angels in Big Guns Never Tire with the Hammer and Anvil deployment and 3 objectives. Managed to win 10-4. I came away from the game with no one unit standing out in my mind as the MVPs, which to me says a list is starting to work together well.

I can say one thing for sure, I love Draigo. Will put up a Battle Report soon.

I love him too, but I think most of my FLGS doesn't as much after the tournament, lol.

He's just too good with a bunch of Paladins behind him.

I had a situation where the paladin crew were eating 7 shock attack gun shots(we played no force org appoc craziness) Draigo ate 2 full blasts like a boss. and when I started LOS! to him. People were like wtf... haha great times. Draigo srsly is a nasty S.O.B. just in deffense, his offense is just icing.

As a second note, I'm looking to buy some Inquisition models. I have a lot of store credit and am looking to flesh out my GK army. my shopping list is
Dreadknight x2
Stormraven
Crusader pack x2
Jokaero x2
Chimera
Techmarine with servitor pack
Maybe some Arco's
Maybe some DCA's

What kinda unit builds are decent enough and not just cannon fodder, and what do I do for Warrior Acolytes?

For warrior acolytes, just use the IG or SoB range depending on equipment. An Acolyte in PA with a bolter can be a SoB model for instance. Lasgun and Carapace armor can use the Stormtrooper models.

What load out are you guys using for Paladins? I know the Apothecary and Banner Bearer are auto includes in the list, but what about Swords vs. Halberds? I would think both are still really important since a 4+ invul is tons better than a 5+ in CC and going I6 is great too. I was thinking of running 4 swords, 3 Halberds, and 2 Hammers.

Red Comet wrote:What load out are you guys using for Paladins? I know the Apothecary and Banner Bearer are auto includes in the list, but what about Swords vs. Halberds? I would think both are still really important since a 4+ invul is tons better than a 5+ in CC and going I6 is great too. I was thinking of running 4 swords, 3 Halberds, and 2 Hammers.

I run Apoth, Banner, Staff, 4 cannons, 3-4 hammers all halberds.

Nobody in the tournament I played actually wanted to assault the Draigowing squad... but I usually take a mixture of Swords, Halberds, and at least 1 hammer.

Mostly halberds though (because they look the coolest)

Sounds like you have some smart opponents. Thats good. They've learned the first lesson in fighting Draigowing.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Nobody in the tournament I played actually wanted to assault the Draigowing squad... but I usually take a mixture of Swords, Halberds, and at least 1 hammer.

Mostly halberds though (because they look the coolest)

I run more hammers to make sure without a doubt, 2+ armor will be destroyed.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Nobody in the tournament I played actually wanted to assault the Draigowing squad... but I usually take a mixture of Swords, Halberds, and at least 1 hammer.

Mostly halberds though (because they look the coolest)

Exact opposite in my experience. :( People kept assaulting my Draigowing with 10-man Assault Terminator squads and Wraiths with Warscythe Destroyer Lord :(

Enigwolf wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Nobody in the tournament I played actually wanted to assault the Draigowing squad... but I usually take a mixture of Swords, Halberds, and at least 1 hammer.

Mostly halberds though (because they look the coolest)

Exact opposite in my experience. :( People kept assaulting my Draigowing with 10-man Assault Terminator squads and Wraiths with Warscythe Destroyer Lord :(

A 10 man assault term squad I imagine is difficult to move around the board... and how many turns of shooting can you put into it before it gets to you?

Wraiths are annoying, but didn't have any crons in this tourney.

Assault Terminators are the one unit that can actually hit a Palastar harder then it hits them.

Wraiths not so much. The Warscythe does 1 wound a round, that gets bounced off the Warding Stave. Then they only have 3++ saves to fall back on.

Grey Templar wrote:Assault Terminators are the one unit that can actually hit a Palastar harder then it hits them.

Wraiths not so much. The Warscythe does 1 wound a round, that gets bounced off the Warding Stave. Then they only have 3++ saves to fall back on.

The problem I'm facing is that they're just as durable with 3++ saves and multiple wounds. True, they can't do wound allocation but their maneuverability has the ability to get the charge (meaning Hammer of Wrath and Charge bonus attacks), and they're also far cheaper... =X That's the only other "star" that's really giving my Palastars problems...

wraith star is pretty OP and in fact the whole necron codex being written for 6th, really shows off some of the changes very nicely though in a completely OP way in some cases.

Good luck Jy2. as I've said before in here some pages ago, I've only managed to beat the air force once and lost about 8 times with various purifier builds and the one time was with a SW ally build drop podding next to his barge lord and shooting him off on turn 1 but since then, he's gotten wraiths and that's not worked anylonger.

As stated on the bottom of the first page post, I'm actually leaning now more to a Necron ally to my GK's with how powerful they are now. It's silly but even with that, I still feel weaker than the pure necron forces.

Pure case of "can't beat them, join them"

FA - wraiths + storm raven (and a D-lord)
Heavy - doomscythes + dreadknight?
Elites - purifiers or vendred? / dread to replace a doom
Troops / HQ - coteaz + henchmen bodies (or crowe + purifiers and psycannons to combat squad if needed) and of course air forces + warriors

I'll admit, the synergy is a bit lacking in some parts but decent enough with how powerful the units are that it will probably work out anyway.


Anyways, I've also saw a wacky idea with 12 acolytes all with melta bombs. 12 melta bomb assault to down just about anything super heavy. 120 points if they all had bolters. Just sounded pretty darn funny way to tackle forts, super heavies, and even some MC's. Cheap for what you get.

You will definitely be weaker than pure Necron forces, which is sad for us and just about every other army that isn't Necrons. The problem with Royal Airforce is just how survivable they are. When you have 10 flyers and no way to reliably bring them down, its tough. Whenever I look at my Blood Angel and GK lists, I know I can't deal with a Necron Flyer List. They will always overwhelm me, unless the army comes in piece-meal which is very unlikely to happen.

How about two stormravens with the hurricane bolter, assault cannon, psybolt loadout, and then IG allies with 2 vendettas.

So, ok, 4 flyers is not 9, however, we all know how good vendettas are, and the firepower the raven puts out, with machine spirit, could have a good go at them scythes. Combine with a pair of psyrifleman should make a good mass firepower.

Jusr add coteaz and hechman to fill points, command and blob squad as the allies and good to go.


Edit:

Or as above just a half gk half necron airforce

I just prefer guard for a more "fluffy" reason

Enigwolf wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Assault Terminators are the one unit that can actually hit a Palastar harder then it hits them.

Wraiths not so much. The Warscythe does 1 wound a round, that gets bounced off the Warding Stave. Then they only have 3++ saves to fall back on.

The problem I'm facing is that they're just as durable with 3++ saves and multiple wounds. True, they can't do wound allocation but their maneuverability has the ability to get the charge (meaning Hammer of Wrath and Charge bonus attacks), and they're also far cheaper... =X That's the only other "star" that's really giving my Palastars problems...

Multiple wounds doesn't matter as you have Force Weapons. Your character casts HH, and the squad autoactivates their NFWs. You are taking the banner, so use it.


The Wraiths also have alot less damage output then assault terminators(they don't ignore your 2+ armor for one)

Red Comet wrote:I know the Apothecary and Banner Bearer are auto includes in the list

Are they? I have neither and the unit does just as well.

Enigwolf wrote:Exact opposite in my experience. :( People kept assaulting my Draigowing with 10-man Assault Terminator squads and Wraiths with Warscythe Destroyer Lord :(

Wraiths they should beat easily, but the TH/SS are one of their weak points.

The banner is a no-brainer IMO, for Paladins or regular terminators. One guy loses his force weapon, and in exchange everybody in the unit gains +1A and they can automatically activate their NFWs.

The more models you get in the unit, the better the banner becomes.



5 paladins/terminators have 10 NFW attacks base.

5 paladins with a banner/terminators have 12 NFW attacks and 3 regular attacks.

6 paladins/terminators have 15 NFW attacks and 3 regular attacks.

Each additional paladin/terminator adds 3 NFW attacks to the total.

The bonus applies to any joined characters(including the FW activation bonus)


As for cost per attack, the banner's expense is soon almost completely paid for.



As for the Apothecary, he only needs to save a couple wounds to pay for himself. Now that FnP works against more stuff it is a very awsome upgrade. Against Plasma, the Paladins practically have a 4+ save. if they actually DO have a 4+ save(Librarian with Forwarning, in melee with swords...) then it becomes an effective 3++.

Isn't FNP 5+?

Yeah, a 5+ invuln followed by a 5+ fnp is almost the exact same as a straight 4+

Okay so I need some help on my interceptor squad. In a 1500 point game, my all GK gun line, this interceptor squad is 5 interceptors with 1 psycannon. But it doesn't seem to do any better than my regular squads, except they shunt move and then that seems to piss off my opponent who proceeds to kill them all with several units worth of gunfire. Is it the layout? The tactics? Could I spend the 150pts somewhere more useful?

Also 6th Edition Psyker powers on the dreadknight? Any preference there? I think it'd be pretty great to flame someone and then psychic-ly own them the same turn.

Umm, Dreadknights can't take rulebook powers. Only Librarians can. I wish they could take Divination, rerollable saves FTW!

Interceptors, thats pretty much what they do. Fly around, be annoying, shunt move to shoot up some rear armor with psycannons, and then die.

Grey Templar wrote:Umm, Dreadknights can't take rulebook powers. Only Librarians can. I wish they could take Divination, rerollable saves FTW!

Sorry you're right. I'm not quite sure where my head is at and I allowed myself to be confused by Army Builder's current flaw.

I spent over an hour trying to find a way they could

Desperation took me, but I'm over it now.

@ Sudojo - when the new Dark Angels come out, you should do a work up for Draigo Army/ Deathwing Allies.

I'm buying 2 starter DA sets, 6 bikes will fit in my GK army, with Sammael.

@ Sudojo - when the new Dark Angels come out, you should do a work up for Draigo Army/ Deathwing Allies.

I've had some thoughts on this combo already but so far it feels like it will be similar to what I would do with vanilla marine allies but maybe a few changes. Tac Terminators with cyclone missles to hold down objectives if I do a terminator wing army though I feel it'll suffer from wayyyyy too few models. I think paladins alone are probably stronger. What I feel will probably do well though would be T5 bikers. It'll really come down to what the codex says but from experiences so far in 6th, bikers are the boss so probably some sort of DA biker build for objectives + fast attacking with shunting DK/interceptors. We shall see what they give us!

Personally if DA terminators cyclone missle launchers got flakk, they would be really good to take. Hard to budge by air forces, good survivability in ruins (it's still a 4+ cover!) and terminators being much more resistant to assault than say a hydra, I'd probably swap out for them for my main anti-air (if they got flakk in the next codex that is)

Okay so I need some help on my interceptor squad. In a 1500 point game, my all GK gun line, this interceptor squad is 5 interceptors with 1 psycannon. But it doesn't seem to do any better than my regular squads, except they shunt move and then that seems to piss off my opponent who proceeds to kill them all with several units worth of gunfire. Is it the layout? The tactics? Could I spend the 150pts somewhere more useful?

Rewriting this for the first page

Interceptors work better when you know your enemy's codex. I.e. what is over 170 points that's worth taking out for the interceptors. Shunt to the back of it and shoot it to death. (most likely you will be shot to death the following turn) Alternatively, an incinerator is really useful for them as well since you can potentially flame some snipers to death that has been sniping at your characters with AP2 shots since they roll 6's like a boss. Str 6 flamer can dent some tanks too and it'll be auto hit instead of the psycannon needing to roll for hitting also. (personally I still like the psycannon though since I can use them in fire support mode) (also, the guys can shoot storm bolters at armor 10 backs, AND you get to throw a krack or frag grenade now too - as you are likely very close to the enemy). Of additional note, you can shunt into terrain, no deep strike tests, and even dangerous terrain you can pass on armor saves now, so look for some 4+ ruins to get into if you are worried about survival.

I've had one good game with them were by they got dropped off by a strom raven, somehow survived (as everyone was shooting at the raven) and then managed to kill their target and then shunt back to my hq to contest it again as the enemy wiped out my home guard. What you get is flexibility! Don't forget they also get to move 12' normally and if you go 6', you can reroll a charge, as well as get Hammer of wrath in case you do just use them to assault. (something I'm still experimenting with in 6th)

The assaulty interceptors would function pretty similarly to like a bunch of BA jump assault marines but you don't get FnP :/

I stick with psycannons on interceptors. for some reason GW jacked up the price of Incinerators on them and Strike Squads, while giveing them to Purifiers for free?

2 Psycannons and Psybolts on a 10 man squad gives a pretty nasty anti-vehicle unit. 16 Str5 and 4(8) str7 rending shots are not something any vehicle that doesn't have AV14 rear is going to want up their backside. And most non-vehicles won't appreciate it either.

Grey Templar wrote:2 Psycannons and Psybolts on a 10 man squad gives a pretty nasty anti-vehicle unit. 16 Str5 and 4(8) str7 rending shots are not something any vehicle that doesn't have AV14 rear is going to want up their backside. And most non-vehicles won't appreciate it either.

On the contrary, a more accurate description of that combo is an anti-everything unit.

True dat

Don't forget the thrown krack grenade!

Yeah, its the poor-man's Hammerhand

If only you could throw you Hammerhand.

What are people's thoughts on GK with Ork allies? I've always loved Orks personally (used to play green tide and Kan wall) and Orks could fill a cheap cannon fodder role (I currently play Draigowing). I know they are desperate allies, but as long as you keep them over 6" away (which doesn't seem to be difficult to do) you're golden.

Give them some rokkits and hidden claws and send the boyz forward backed up by psycannons and autocannon dreadnughts. Thoughts?

problem is that the Orks (or GK if they're the allied detachment) are non-denial, non-scoring, and there's the potential inconvenience of One Eye Open too.

Because GK units tend to be expensive, losing scoring and (especially) denial on any unit in the army is quite a big deal really.

You have good points and I've considered those cons, but wouldn't they be useful as cheap tarpits with the changes to Fearless? A group of 30 boyz with shootas could theoretically act as 'denial' by swamping an enemy scoring unit so it can't maneuver to where it needs to go, and prevent it from shooting my GK scoring units off the objectives they are sitting on.

It is a bit of a stretch, but seems viable.

Sure. If you can get it where you need it without interfering with your own units. And I'm not sure it'll tarpit anything that's actually too nasty in assault, and it'd probably easily beat something not very suited to assault. And codex marines will still be able to fall back if they lose combat and the orks' low initiative means they're unlikely to tarpit them.

I see the idea and it could work. But on the whole I think I'd prefer to use weaklings. You'd get about 2 squads of 8 with a couple of plasma guns each for the same sort of price I think. obviously they'd not be tarpitting units, but they would score and shoot rather more effectively overall.

Might be worth an experiment. What would you take as HQ?

I agree, Orks don't have a place being allies to GK.

As far as Ork HQ, my first idea was the good old KFF Big Mek, but honestly with the nerf to cover, I'm not sold on it. I was thinking of putting in a warboss for issuing challenges.

I think it would be a fun experiment. One Eye Open rule really doesn't worry me; they are easily separated from my main detachment, and even if they aren't, it only occurs on the roll of a 1. I like living on the edge.

Sure I could use weaklings, but I'm trying to come up with a fun alternative. My Tournament list swaps the points allocated for these allies with 2 units of 2 paladins, each with a hammer and halberd. It's more competitive for obvious reasons, but the ork allies list would be for pure lol factor.

I think the HQ should be cheap really to fit with the idea.

So I've put that battle report up like promised here. Enjoy.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
So I've put that battle report up like promised here. Enjoy.

I like the cleanliness and simplicity of your batrep, but one thing I wanted to point out was the use of the Stormraven's POTM power. I recall reading that if you declare Skyfire for the flyer, all shots, including POTM shots, will be fired as Skyfire, so your missiles shouldn't have been able to fire at the Assault Marines on Turn 2 as it's a blast weapon. Did the Assault Marines assault the Hover Mode Storm Raven in turn 4? Interesting use of Outflank for Grand Strategy too, might use that next time on a Dreadknight or something...

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
So I've put that battle report up like promised here. Enjoy.

I like the cleanliness and simplicity of your batrep, but one thing I wanted to point out was the use of the Stormraven's POTM power. I recall reading that if you declare Skyfire for the flyer, all shots, including POTM shots, will be fired as Skyfire, so your missiles shouldn't have been able to fire at the Assault Marines on Turn 2 as it's a blast weapon. Did the Assault Marines assault the Hover Mode Storm Raven in turn 4? Interesting use of Outflank for Grand Strategy too, might use that next time on a Dreadknight or something...

PoTMS allows the weapon to be fired at full BS so is not relegated to Snap Shot and so the Blast can be fired. And no, the Assault Marine popped it with 3 Melta shots.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
So I've put that battle report up like promised here. Enjoy.

I like the cleanliness and simplicity of your batrep, but one thing I wanted to point out was the use of the Stormraven's POTM power. I recall reading that if you declare Skyfire for the flyer, all shots, including POTM shots, will be fired as Skyfire, so your missiles shouldn't have been able to fire at the Assault Marines on Turn 2 as it's a blast weapon. Did the Assault Marines assault the Hover Mode Storm Raven in turn 4? Interesting use of Outflank for Grand Strategy too, might use that next time on a Dreadknight or something...

PoTMS allows the weapon to be fired at full BS so is not relegated to Snap Shot and so the Blast can be fired. And no, the Assault Marine popped it with 3 Melta shots.

But which supercedes which? Declaring skyfire or PoTMS? Any rule-mongers can help clear up this confusion for me? If they can indeed fire non-snapfire, then I really want to build my stormravens differently...

Did you not read what I just said? Nothing is declaring Snap Fire in this instance; PoTMS allows you to fire at full ballistic skill. Remember that the Machine Spirit is not the pilot firing, so not sure why this is so hard to fathom. But I'm not going to argue it further, as this isn't the thread.

But as for re-arming Ravens, you can't change the missiles, so the ruling makes no difference.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Did you not read what I just said? Nothing is declaring Snap Fire in this instance; PoTMS allows you to fire at full ballistic skill. Remember that the Machine Spirit is not the pilot firing, so not sure why this is so hard to fathom. But I'm not going to argue it further, as this isn't the thread.

But as for re-arming Ravens, you can't change the missiles, so the ruling makes no difference.

Take a chill pill and calm down, I'm not - and never was - arguing with you. I did read in one of the earlier threads that declaring Skyfire will Snapfire PoTMS too, I'm not trying to argue either side of it. And it does change the way I load out my Ravens because of how I utilize their role on the battlefield - I wasn't specifically referring to the missiles, I was referring to the turret weapons.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Did you not read what I just said? Nothing is declaring Snap Fire in this instance; PoTMS allows you to fire at full ballistic skill. Remember that the Machine Spirit is not the pilot firing, so not sure why this is so hard to fathom. But I'm not going to argue it further, as this isn't the thread.

But as for re-arming Ravens, you can't change the missiles, so the ruling makes no difference.

Take a chill pill and calm down, I'm not - and never was - arguing with you. I did read in one of the earlier threads that declaring Skyfire will Snapfire PoTMS too, I'm not trying to argue either side of it. And it does change the way I load out my Ravens because of how I utilize their role on the battlefield - I wasn't specifically referring to the missiles, I was referring to the turret weapons.

Perfectly chill, never assume anything else across the internet, where tone and feelings don't exist. And if you weren't arguing that's fine, but then don't post an argument. Simple as.

Now back to tactics...

What do you guys think of GK with Necron allies?

 Red Comet wrote:
What do you guys think of GK with Necron allies?

Pointless. Necrons don't add anything to Grey Knights that we need, but they do however water down the effectiveness of the army by eating up points. In fact this is a general rule I think people should follow for allies; if building a competitive list, don't take allies unless you need them, as generally you are spending more on them than you need to and those points are best sticking with the thing you know has synergy, the army as a singular entity.

The only thing I miss in my lists is something fast and durable, like bikes. That's why I'm adding DA bikes when I get them. Or SM/white scars ones. Don't know yet, but Sammael in a bike unit with apoth, maybe do a good job.

Dreadknights can be fast, and are always durable.

 Red Comet wrote:
What do you guys think of GK with Necron allies?

I actually like them and am working on a cheese list as we speak.

Pointless. Necrons don't add anything to Grey Knights that we need, but they do however water down the effectiveness of the army by eating up points. In fact this is a general rule I think people should follow for allies; if building a competitive list, don't take allies unless you need them, as generally you are spending more on them than you need to and those points are best sticking with the thing you know has synergy, the army as a singular entity.

while this is true in many ways, I do think that necrons really can benefit from some GK allies or vice versa as some of my proxy games so far have been pretty successful.

I can't tell yet if staying with pure is better but my better purifiers builds now use necrons and so far I've even gone as far as necron main, GK allies and here's my reasoning:

1) crowe is now expendable. He's no longer your warlord so you can get him killed just like before. A necron destroyer lord in the middle of a bunch of wraiths is damn hard to kill not to mention res orb is one cheap as hell ability along with MSS (most amazing 15 point upgrade in the entire game bar none)

That wraith unit actually doubles as my "death star" while really not too over the top expensive.

2) Crowe + purifiers are good for thinning out hordes. I generally run 1 to 2 squads of them anyway points permitting and use them to suck up stuff like hordes of gaunts/big nid bugs that just begs to get force weaponed. Orks and guardsmen too but so far it's all been shooting, I've yet to make it into a big guard blob though if I could, I bet it'd be amazing. I can also combat squad them to give me something to do for objectives

3) I really should take the AC dread to give me something to do vs psy defense but I've found that everyone has just been buffing themselves lately and for whatever reason I tend to roll 5's on DTW more times than I fail but really shouldn't work that way. *Because of that* I've found a DK to be quite useful to help again with annoying cover hugging snipers and the like which necrons can waste inordinate amount of time trying to shoot off. Trying to budge some 2+ cover pathfinders (eldar)? so annoying. Necrons really don't have that much anti-cover and really no templates unless taking that gauntlet of fire and some royal courts.

4) Necron air force + storm raven do well. Not super, but well enough. 2 doom arks have been devestating and then having a DK come into your face at the same time gives alot of target saturation. Total my list only has 4 fliers (2 doom, 1 SR, and 1 night scythe with some grot squad of warriors to camp or the crowe purifiers) so not toooo over the top like some 9-10 flier craziness. So I tend to still play semi-competitive but not OMGWTFBBQ cheese.

5) given the future for flakk, and necron relative weakness to MC's, (not much of a weakness honestly but I think GK just tends to do it slightly better), I wouldn't completely disconunt the Necron + GK alliance. I do give up alot of potential divination coverage which is still a drawback to this list though I've not had too much problems handling opponents anyway given BS4 across the board and very survivable units.

I started this thought on page one but only recently got to try it with some proxies and it's fairly decent. I'm goning to still try to refine it further.

When plastic sisters come out in 2013 however, I'm so building my Justicar Thawn + St. Celestine list and somehow shape or way, I'll make that thing work. (or at least not get laughed off the board by turn 3)

That's the thing though, Necrons with Grey Knights allies isn't the same as Grey Knights with Necron allies. The allied detachment is more limited for one. Necrons could make use of Grey Knights I suppose, but again, I think we are talking about an army that already has all the tools.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I stick with psycannons on interceptors. for some reason GW jacked up the price of Incinerators on them and Strike Squads, while giveing them to Purifiers for free?

2 Psycannons and Psybolts on a 10 man squad gives a pretty nasty anti-vehicle unit. 16 Str5 and 4(8) str7 rending shots are not something any vehicle that doesn't have AV14 rear is going to want up their backside. And most non-vehicles won't appreciate it either.

Depends how you use them. I put incinerators on them, which is slightly expensive but basically provides a tool to sweep units off an objective on turn 5. Move 30 accurately, place S6 flamer(s), watch objective suddenly be empty. I think their biggest weakness is that people play them like purifiers, which they're really not.

I'm not even sure I'd start them on the board in an objective game.

I am running GK/Crons at NOVA

I decided to supplement the Draigo-star with Fliers and Wraiths:

Draigo - 275
Coteaz - 100
Techmarine - Grenade Set - 115
10 Paladins - 4 Psycannon, 4 Hammer, 1 Stave, 5 Halberd - 650
5 Henchmen - 20
Destroyer Lord - Weave - 140
5 Warriors - Night Scythe - 165
5 Warriors - Night Scythe - 165
5 Wraiths - 2 Coils - 195
Doom Scythe - 175

So far it has worked really well for me. The Wraiths score courtesy of Draigo (NOVA allows this). So I have 5 scoring squads, 2 hammer units and the ability to cover the board with fast units (a weakness in Draigo lists). I also am fairly immune to alpha strikes. I generally deploy only Paladins and Wraiths and usually keep the Wraiths out of LoS. Turn 2 I generally attempt to pounce. Communion helps me get all 3 fliers in with relative ease.

LValx wrote:
I am running GK/Crons at NOVA

I decided to supplement the Draigo-star with Fliers and Wraiths:

Draigo - 275
Coteaz - 100
Techmarine - Grenade Set - 115
10 Paladins - 4 Psycannon, 4 Hammer, 1 Stave, 5 Halberd - 650
5 Henchmen - 20
Destroyer Lord - Weave - 140
5 Warriors - Night Scythe - 165
5 Warriors - Night Scythe - 165
5 Wraiths - 2 Coils - 195
Doom Scythe - 175

So far it has worked really well for me. The Wraiths score courtesy of Draigo (NOVA allows this). So I have 5 scoring squads, 2 hammer units and the ability to cover the board with fast units (a weakness in Draigo lists). I also am fairly immune to alpha strikes. I generally deploy only Paladins and Wraiths and usually keep the Wraiths out of LoS. Turn 2 I generally attempt to pounce. Communion helps me get all 3 fliers in with relative ease.

If NOVA allows that then dang... thats some strong synergy. I'd figure grand strat being used on friendly models would nix the necros... being enemy models and all. Unless GS never mentions friendly models. I like this list.

Grand strategy just says 'units under his command'. Personally i think that should exclude allies (given GK have no Battle Brothers), but it is indeed a huge boost if NOVA have (for unfathomable reasons) allowed it.

Allowing that is stupid, the allies rules are pretty clear that anything other than Battle Brothers don't benefit from any allied special rules.

So I'm switching up my list a bit considering everyone at the last tournament said they don't want to play against me again, netting me a very low sportsmanship score (sissies)

Draigo
5 Paladins, 2MCPsy, Apo
5 Strike squad, DH, Psycannon, 2x Halberd
Razorback with Psybolts

Dreadknight, teleporter, sword, incinerator
Dreadknight, teleporter, sword, incinerator
Psyrifle Dreadnought

1500

I really like the DKs now, they are amazing for putting pressure on your enemy almost right out of the gate; with 2 of them, I think my opponent won't have a clue what to do. The strike squad and their Razor will go for the nearest objective and sit on it, while the Paladins and Draigo move to more difficult objectives. Psyrifle dread does what it does best.

All of my GKSS guys are metal, so hopefully i have the right ones (although an incinerator will have to proxy for the Psycannon), I kind of need to get a box of regular GKSS.

Next tournament is September, so I have a little while to shake out a new list; although Draigowing with a full 10 man squad is amazing.

Also Nova allowing a GM to give Necrons special rules is dumb.

Dude, so as long as you weren't a douche (and you certainly don't seem like one to me), then you weren't a bad sport and they shouldn't have the right to rate you so low; ironically they are being the poor sports here. Furthermore, to be honest, your list was decent, but not bent broken.

As for the new list, looks good, my kind of thing; I still think you really lack anti-air, however, you know your local meta now and will know if it is necessary. I don't like the Dread or Razorback in isolation though, and would try and double up one or the other. Dropping the Apothecary would net you a lot of points (you don't need him with Draigo).

I think you should drop that upgrade, and drop the Teleporters (Draigo can make the Knights outflank instead), and use the points to get another Strike Squad and Razorback. Should be more than enough.

LValx wrote:
I am running GK/Crons at NOVA

I decided to supplement the Draigo-star with Fliers and Wraiths:

Draigo - 275
Coteaz - 100
Techmarine - Grenade Set - 115
10 Paladins - 4 Psycannon, 4 Hammer, 1 Stave, 5 Halberd - 650
5 Henchmen - 20
Destroyer Lord - Weave - 140
5 Warriors - Night Scythe - 165
5 Warriors - Night Scythe - 165
5 Wraiths - 2 Coils - 195
Doom Scythe - 175

So far it has worked really well for me. The Wraiths score courtesy of Draigo (NOVA allows this). So I have 5 scoring squads, 2 hammer units and the ability to cover the board with fast units (a weakness in Draigo lists). I also am fairly immune to alpha strikes. I generally deploy only Paladins and Wraiths and usually keep the Wraiths out of LoS. Turn 2 I generally attempt to pounce. Communion helps me get all 3 fliers in with relative ease.

That's just too many eggs in 1 basket. You have a deathstar that is real slow and just plain ignorable in most cases. I feel this list to be real unbalanced.

I'd get rid of the techmarine. Honestly, your army is killy enough without the need for more grenades. Honestly, I'd drop Coteaz as well. With Draigo and 3 HQ's, you are really top heavy.

But here's a work-around if you like both. Get a Xenos Inquisitor Level 1 Psyker grenade caddy. About the same cost as Coteaz, can give you Prescience and the same nades as the techmarine.

Another option is an Level 1 Psyker Inquisitor w/terminator armor + psycannon to up your psycannon count.

Swap out the 5-henchmen for a hammer soladin. He's much easier to hide and much more mobile with his ability to deepstrike. And with Holocaust, he can threaten hordes as well.

For your D-lord, get MSS and if you have spare points, consider a ResOrb. Try to max out your wraiths to 6.




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 daedalus-templarius wrote:

Draigo
5 Paladins, 2MCPsy, Apo
5 Strike squad, DH, Psycannon, 2x Halberd
Razorback with Psybolts

Dreadknight, teleporter, sword, incinerator
Dreadknight, teleporter, sword, incinerator
Psyrifle Dreadnought

1500

I guess if there are no flyers in your local meta, then the list is pretty tough to deal with by a lot of armies. IMO, the list is rather unbalanced. Too few bodies and no real ways to death with flyers makes this list a rock-papers-scissors list. Go up against most lists and you will do alright. But go up against a list that such as flyers or with a lot of AP2 shooting and you are in trouble!

If I was to make a suggestion, I'd say to swap out one of the dreadknights for either more troops or more shooting (or more shooty troops). Perhaps 1 more psyfleman and upgrade your strikers to a 10-man unit. I think that would make your list a little more balanced.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

@jy2

If I had the funds and time I'd bring a better list but this is small and quick to build so I settled. The three characters are essential to how I play the unit. They sit at the edges of the formation allowing me to always LoS, after save (this is why same save is essential, so no on the PA inquisitor) on a 2+. It makes the unit extremely durable. The grenades also make the unit near unchargeable, i've tried without and prefer to take them personally. I don't care for MSS or the Orb. Points are tight as is. So far the wraiths havent been an issue at 5 man. There is little sway on points for this list, unfortunately. However, its performed for me and I feel comfortable with it. Hopefully opponents look at it as unbalanced too!


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And I didnt mean for that to be harsh, the nature of a Draigo list is that it is top heavy. And its somewhat poor criticism to simply point that out. I'm pretty happy that ive managed to fit 3 flyers, wraiths and 3 small troops into the list. Compare that to Blackmoors list, his had even less targets.

LValx wrote:It makes the unit extremely durable.

Who would charge that unit anyway? That's suicide, especially with Psycannon overwatch.

LValx wrote:And I didnt mean for that to be harsh, the nature of a Draigo list is that it is top heavy. And its somewhat poor criticism to simply point that out.

No it isn't. On most occasions when you see a list like this, the player behind it doesn't realise the drawbacks; why should jy2 assume you are any different? There's no way he could have known you knew the drawbacks and had chosen to deal with them.

BTW, just as a correction, it is the nature of a Draigowing to be top heavy, not a Draigo list, as I run a Draigo list that isn't top heavy.

LValx wrote:I'm pretty happy that ive managed to fit 3 flyers, wraiths and 3 small troops into the list. Compare that to Blackmoors list, his had even less targets.

It is definitely better than Blackmoor's list, even if a lot of that potential is built due to NOVA making a stupid call that breaks the base rules of the game. But remember this; Blackmoor won with that list, that list didn't win with Blackmoor. I have no idea what kind of player you are, but are you yourself confident you are as good a player as Blackmoor is?

Shooty Death stars are actually decent but draigowing is not too hard to dance around. Parking him in midfield on an objective gives decent coverage but again, it'll be a tough call to march all the way across the field especially as I'm sure you won't be really running but shooting.

Check out some of Reecies's battle reports (on the battle reports thread) with his TAC vanilla marines. It's entirely possible to make that death star really not do much of anything other than some relentless psycannons.

As a frequent techmarine user, I almost never ever allocate wounds to him as it's just too much risk and he's a really useful and now even more useful character. He's most likely going to be sitting inside of a circle of bodies so allocating to him essentially never happens. I can see how you'd like to allocate some to coteaz as he's got some decent number of wounds but remember str 6 + can instant death him and what most people shoot at draigowing tends to be alot of anti-tank. In practice, I've rarely had experienced people waste time volley shooting the death star as it's just not that useful.

I tend to save coteaz's wounds for perils anyway. On the flipside, you can still allocate some stuff that won't instant death over onto your power armor cheapo inquisitor if you wanted to. Decent chance to survive as long as you watch the numbers going into him and avoid str 6+.

JY2's assessments are pretty much on the money but again, it comes down to personal perferance. You're getting a sweet ride with scoring wraiths via NOVA rules and frankly I'm kind of surprised they ruled this way but more power to you for building to the event rather than internet policy.

-------------------------------

Incidentially, here's a sample of my current cron+gk list. It's still a work in progress and would like some creative feedback on it if possible. It's essentially what I've come down to after messing with crowe lists since 6th launch.

Destroyer lord with MSS + weave (couldn't afford res orb at 1500)
wraiths x6 (no upgrades)

5 man warrior squad x2

Crowe

Purifiers x10 man (4 psycannons, 1 hammer, 5 halberds) (can be combat squadded - hammer is on a squad member, the justicar has a halberd)
(can ride in the SR or hide in buildings or have crowe ride the SR himself)

Storm raven (SR) (MM + LC (or Assault cannon but couldn't afford psybolts)

Doomscythes x2

*this is heavily a work in progress and I'm just trying different things and is in no way a competitive build just yet or at least I haven't tested it as such*

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Dude, so as long as you weren't a douche (and you certainly don't seem like one to me), then you weren't a bad sport and they shouldn't have the right to rate you so low; ironically they are being the poor sports here. Furthermore, to be honest, your list was decent, but not bent broken.

As for the new list, looks good, my kind of thing; I still think you really lack anti-air, however, you know your local meta now and will know if it is necessary. I don't like the Dread or Razorback in isolation though, and would try and double up one or the other. Dropping the Apothecary would net you a lot of points (you don't need him with Draigo).

I think you should drop that upgrade, and drop the Teleporters (Draigo can make the Knights outflank instead), and use the points to get another Strike Squad and Razorback. Should be more than enough.

I just stomped on them its pretty sad though, my first opponent I thought had some merit because his list was maybe slightly more fluffy; but the 2nd guy I played brought 2 Stormravens as BA, and the 3rd guy was MSU Space Wolves with tons of longfangs. So... I don't know if I'd call Draigowing any 'cheesier' than those builds, but whatever.

I've found the Apo to be great with Draigo, as he basically has the possibility to shrug off everything since he has EW, also my friends love plasma (who'd have thought with them playing against all of my terminators )

I wouldn't mind another strike squad in another RB, and maybe if I had a few more points I'd add that, but at 1500 it is quite constrained; and I want to take 2 DKs I almost always just take 1 Dreadnought tho, I haven't found they are that great outside of popping vehicles.

As for dropping the teleporters, I think that's what I like about the DKs the most; and I'd rather use Draigo's power to reroll 1s on wounds instead.

 jy2 wrote:



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 daedalus-templarius wrote:

Draigo
5 Paladins, 2MCPsy, Apo
5 Strike squad, DH, Psycannon, 2x Halberd
Razorback with Psybolts

Dreadknight, teleporter, sword, incinerator
Dreadknight, teleporter, sword, incinerator
Psyrifle Dreadnought

1500

I guess if there are no flyers in your local meta, then the list is pretty tough to deal with by a lot of armies. IMO, the list is rather unbalanced. Too few bodies and no real ways to death with flyers makes this list a rock-papers-scissors list. Go up against most lists and you will do alright. But go up against a list that such as flyers or with a lot of AP2 shooting and you are in trouble!

If I was to make a suggestion, I'd say to swap out one of the dreadknights for either more troops or more shooting (or more shooty troops). Perhaps 1 more psyfleman and upgrade your strikers to a 10-man unit. I think that would make your list a little more balanced.

Actually the psycannons took out the flyers I ran into in the last tourney pretty quickly, but I was running more Paladins that time. 4 Psycannons in the main group anyway. No one is running a ton of flyers, but that is one of the things I don't really like about them; if someone takes too many it just seems to totally upset the balance of a TAC list.

I had less bodies in my tourney win list but yea, it could definitely use more. I usually just run all Paladins, but I wanted to give something a little different a shot.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

LValx wrote:It makes the unit extremely durable.

Who would charge that unit anyway? That's suicide, especially with Psycannon overwatch.

LValx wrote:And I didnt mean for that to be harsh, the nature of a Draigo list is that it is top heavy. And its somewhat poor criticism to simply point that out.

No it isn't. On most occasions when you see a list like this, the player behind it doesn't realise the drawbacks; why should jy2 assume you are any different? There's no way he could have known you knew the drawbacks and had chosen to deal with them.

BTW, just as a correction, it is the nature of a Draigowing to be top heavy, not a Draigo list, as I run a Draigo list that isn't top heavy.

LValx wrote:I'm pretty happy that ive managed to fit 3 flyers, wraiths and 3 small troops into the list. Compare that to Blackmoors list, his had even less targets.

It is definitely better than Blackmoor's list, even if a lot of that potential is built due to NOVA making a stupid call that breaks the base rules of the game. But remember this; Blackmoor won with that list, that list didn't win with Blackmoor. I have no idea what kind of player you are, but are you yourself confident you are as good a player as Blackmoor is?

Grenades are there as a mulligan vs other cc units. Nobz can hurt me badly if rolls are in their favor. But with the grenades there is a high chance of them completely wiffing in combat. It is worth it to me for that guarantee and the 3 ics for LOS. I personally find paladins more survivable now than in 5th.

No way am I as good as blackmoor. My point is simply that deathstars are competitive. However, imo, it must score and shoot. 24" is big and if you simply castle ill gain board dominance.

Also, ANY list taking a 275 pt char is top heavy. 1 model being ~15% of a 2k army is top heavy. Draigo makes paladins viable though so I take the ole' badass.

Btw just a fun bit of broken. Hope you roll reroll saves withcoteaz and place him at front of squad for some lols.

LValx wrote:My point is simply that deathstars are competitive. However, imo, it must score and shoot. 24" is big and if you simply castle ill gain board dominance.

I'd say that they can be competitive, not that they are. The problem with deathstars is that they are rock-paper-scissors armies as jy2 put it; you are completely at the mercy of the draw. Draigowing for example; you get Dark Eldar with tonnes of Blasters and Lances, it's game over. You get something without a good means to instant-death your Paladins, then you win. It's a risky way to play.

You are right that they should always be able to shoot and score though.

I think Paladinstars arn't very competitive at all. This is due to the fact that most missions are objective based, and there are usually 4+ of them. Not to mention you can only hold one objective at a time now.

Because of this, and the inherent footsloggin nature of a Paladinstar, they will rarely be able to hold more then one or 2 objectives.

This, combined with the relativly short range of their guns, means that they cannot really contest the other objectives to get the win. The enemy just needs to ignore them, take the other 3 objectives, and then wait for the game to end.

The only reason a Paladin list wins an objective mission is if the opponent is dumb enough to actually engage the Paladins, and then the obvious happens and the enemy gets annhilated.

This is due to the fact that most missions are objective based, and there are usually 4+ of them. Not to mention you can only hold one objective at a time now.

Let's take a look at the missions.

of the possible outcomes:

3/18 have no objectives
3/18 have one centrally placed objective
3/18 have 2 objectives - one in each half
2/18 have 3 objectives
2/18 have 4 objectives
2/18 have 5 objectives
3/18 have 6 objectives

In fact less than half the games will have 4 or fewer objectives. Fully half the missions have 2 objectives or less. In 2/3 of the rest, fast attacks and heavy supports are scoring as well as troops.

Further 1/3 of the missions are great for the typical paladin deathstar. Both Purge and Relic play into the hands of any army that has one great big hard to kill unit that can easily reach mid-table. Piddling MSU units are going to struggle in these missions (relatively speaking) for obvious reasons.

Also Big Guns and Scouring where your FA's and HS's score account for 2/3 of the missions that do have 4+ objectives, so having fewer troop units is not necessarily a bad thing.

'Paladin Stars do have one mission that they tend to do poorly in I find: Will of the Emperor. And that has only two objectives but unlike the other objective missions where you can usually ensure two or three are pretty close to one another, they tend to be far apart. That mission's the toughest for paladins.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think Paladinstars arn't very competitive at all. This is due to the fact that most missions are objective based, and there are usually 4+ of them. Not to mention you can only hold one objective at a time now.

Because of this, and the inherent footsloggin nature of a Paladinstar, they will rarely be able to hold more then one or 2 objectives.

This, combined with the relativly short range of their guns, means that they cannot really contest the other objectives to get the win. The enemy just needs to ignore them, take the other 3 objectives, and then wait for the game to end.

The only reason a Paladin list wins an objective mission is if the opponent is dumb enough to actually engage the Paladins, and then the obvious happens and the enemy gets annhilated.

Can a unit only hold one objective at a time even if it is touching two or more?

Also picked up a strike squad box at FLGS, talked to the owner all about my Gencon experience I may be working with several of the prominent RPG/cardgame/wargame houses on art soon. Going to try and make 2 Hammers(justicars), 2 Psycannons, and a sword dude out of the box (might have to steal a hammer from somewhere else).

 daedalus-templarius wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think Paladinstars arn't very competitive at all. This is due to the fact that most missions are objective based, and there are usually 4+ of them. Not to mention you can only hold one objective at a time now.

Because of this, and the inherent footsloggin nature of a Paladinstar, they will rarely be able to hold more then one or 2 objectives.

This, combined with the relativly short range of their guns, means that they cannot really contest the other objectives to get the win. The enemy just needs to ignore them, take the other 3 objectives, and then wait for the game to end.

The only reason a Paladin list wins an objective mission is if the opponent is dumb enough to actually engage the Paladins, and then the obvious happens and the enemy gets annhilated.

Can a unit only hold one objective at a time even if it is touching two or more?

Also picked up a strike squad box at FLGS, talked to the owner all about my Gencon experience I may be working with several of the prominent RPG/cardgame/wargame houses on art soon. Going to try and make 2 Hammers(justicars), 2 Psycannons, and a sword dude out of the box (might have to steal a hammer from somewhere else).

Yes, a unit can only hold a single objective.

You may only hold one objective. However you may contest as many as you can get close enough to simultaneously.

I may be working with several of the prominent RPG/cardgame/wargame houses on art soon

The quality of your work certainly justifies that. Hope it goes well for you.

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:
You may only hold one objective. However you may contest as many as you can get close enough to simultaneously.

I may be working with several of the prominent RPG/cardgame/wargame houses on art soon

The quality of your work certainly justifies that. Hope it goes well for you.

Well then, I'll have to keep that in mind.

Thanks as well

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

LValx wrote:My point is simply that deathstars are competitive. However, imo, it must score and shoot. 24" is big and if you simply castle ill gain board dominance.

I'd say that they can be competitive, not that they are. The problem with deathstars is that they are rock-paper-scissors armies as jy2 put it; you are completely at the mercy of the draw. Draigowing for example; you get Dark Eldar with tonnes of Blasters and Lances, it's game over. You get something without a good means to instant-death your Paladins, then you win. It's a risky way to play.

You are right that they should always be able to shoot and score though.

Meh. You have to keep in mind, I do run support. My support will generally also alphastrike opponents. Not to mention the fact that Wraiths are also extremely durable and destructive for their points. I've played against lists with high volumes of Str. 8 and put them down pretty easily. The big thing is LoS. Its incredibly abusable.

I feel fairly comfortable drawing just about any list outside of pure flying Crons. And even that list I don't heavily fear in the NOVA format as it punishes people for taking an over-abundance of Flyers.


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I also tend to capture the middle objective while trying to contest one in the opponents deployment zone. Generally works ok.

well I posted this in Army Lists, however I didn't get much in the way of constructive criticism. I hope you guys can help me out!

I got a 1700 point tournament coming up in October, and I want to be quite prepared for it. As GKs seemed to have been knocked down a couple pegs, I think they would be a lot of fun to bring. Here is what I came up with.

Coteaz

10 Purifiers w/4 Psycannons

3 Servitors w/Plasma Cannons
Chimera

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

Psyfleman Dread

Psyfleman Dread

Psyfleman Dread

Kinda spammy, but what can you do. I am not married to the Servitors, but quite frankly I am not sure what else I should bring for those points.

I have also been considering dropping Coteaz in favor of a couple Xenos inquisitors to bring some Servo Skulls and to make sure the servitors don't mind lock, possibly even allowing me to bring some Acolytes in that squad to hopefully survive long enough to take a home objective.

Thoughts?

Played another game tonight. First time we've rolled up regular old Dawn of War deployment at the club, so this was (surprisingly) new for me, and it showed. I got soundly beaten in the Scouring 11-6 by Wolves.

I had horrible luck, but also played a rather bad game. It starter with him getting a 2, and two 3's, and I got a 1, a 2, and a 4, however the 4 happened to be right opposite where most of his army had set up to take it. Only rolled 1 for Grand Strategy and sent a Dreadknight on the Outflank; this was my first mistake. When he did come on, he came on the wrong side away from everything and walked until Logan decided to kill him. I also took too many risks with my scoring Ravens, as I was used to having 72" of length to play around with rather than 48", and I dropped to hover too quickly to make sure I got shots instead of zooming off and taking out one turn of shooting in order to stay alive and contest.

I also left the 4 objective relatively light on protection, and though it lasted til the end of the game, it still failed to hold it. Bad luck also persisted with the Wolves making most saves, and me failing a lot. Some bad decisions with my Paladins cost me also.

Draigo was a beast though. After leading his boys off to tackle Logan and his Wolf Guard, he separated and cleared 10 Grey Hunters off an objective on his own. I also misused my Strikes, leaving the bigger squad at home, when I knew early on that he had little to threaten my home objective. I also seemed to forget twice that once my Ravens drop they can be assaulted, and so that's how both of them died. Had I remembered they were worth an extra VP each, I made have been more protective of them.

Most importantly though, I Iearned a lot coming up to the tournament. This was the first game I went first due to the Ravens have no rivals, but in hindsight I should have went second. I also should have deployed both Dreadknights as the risk on the long table edge is much greater with Outflank; going second would have let me determine this also after seeing the enemy deployment. Being more conservative with the Ravens might be good in some games, as it was a big mistake to drop down to contest on turn 4. I also need to better determine the optimal spot for my Paladins to go. All in all, this all says hat I should always try and go second, as it seems best for my army.

As most of your dudes are in boxes and coteaz can't buff them, I'd think a cheap divination inquisitor would be useful to have in the list to help with protection. It's definately a spammy list but it's got decent shooting. The psybacks are going to be fairly fragile but you do have volume.

With that many boxes, I'd think an aegis could be beneficial for alot of cover saves as you are doing a gunline essentially.

Maybe consider dropping a squad of 5 strikes and getting an inquisitor to help buff the purifiers and get the purifiers a rhino or something?

Wierd as it seems, I've done the following -

Have 2 servitors and an acolyte + coteaz in the chimera, then have the purifiers in a rhino.

Deploy them side by side and then have them swap rides. You now have a chimera with 4 psycannons sticking out of it with coteaz along with divination for buffs, and a rhino with 2 servitors sticking out of it with an acolyte for kicks This is where having the 2nd inquisitor for buffs would be very useful as he can ride in the rhino with the servitors to prevent mind lock.

Dropping some strikes for cheapo bolter acolytes in some of the razorbacks can get you enough points potentially for an aegis which btw, your tanks can actually shoot. (razor convert to rhino, the rhino shoot the quad gun, and the psycannon inside can shoot out of the rhino)

The problem I see with setting up behind an aegis defence line is that the turn I want to move could easily be compromised by a couple bad difficult terrain checks. I also see this army being used as a very mobile shooty list, and i don't think sitting in my deployment zone with 24" weapons is really going to scare anyone. I need to push forward quickly to get those Psycannons to a spot to set up a 24" bubble of do not enter.

With that in mind, I can easily drop Coteaz for the two Inquisitors that I would need and have some points left over for Acolytes to make that Servitor squad hang around a little longer.

And yes, the plan from the beginning was to let the Purifiers hop in the Chimera

Dorksim wrote:
The problem I see with setting up behind an aegis defence line is that the turn I want to move could easily be compromised by a couple bad difficult terrain checks. I also see this army being used as a very mobile shooty list, and i don't think sitting in my deployment zone with 24" weapons is really going to scare anyone. I need to push forward quickly to get those Psycannons to a spot to set up a 24" bubble of do not enter.

With that in mind, I can easily drop Coteaz for the two Inquisitors that I would need and have some points left over for Acolytes to make that Servitor squad hang around a little longer.

And yes, the plan from the beginning was to let the Purifiers hop in the Chimera

That's what I initially thought when I first started looking at the Aegis as well but in actual battle experience has shown me that I can slap that thing reallllly far forward. It can be placed all the way forward in your deployment zone which essentially covers most of the board well with 24' weapons. those psybacks are also 36' as well as the psyflemen.

Try it out a few times in practice games. It's got alot going for it. Also, there's very few other ways to get you 4+ saves for your vehicles unless you can hide them really well and there's alot of ruins. I've made a big mental leap this edition. Vehicles to me aren't really vehicles anymore in my head especially light transports lik razorbacks. They are just too fragile as most people have good weapons against them. Expect the bulk of them to die by turn 3. They are just a 40-50 point guy that has a heavy weapon as far as I treat them in my head now. It's kind of strange and probably doesn't make much sense but it's working out that way for me internally anyway.

I must be the only crazy one here. I've been playing Stelek's Ghost list at 1500/1750/2000 with a few modifications ...

-GK MC list -
HQ: 1 Lord Kaldor Draigo, 275 (GK)
HQ: 1 Avatar of Khaine 155 (EL)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon) 220 (GK)
Troop: 10 GKSS (2 Psycannon) 220 (GK)
Troop: 17 Storm Guardians (2 Flamers, Spiritseer, Conceal, Singing Spear) 197 (EL)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists)160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Nemesis Dreadknight (Heavy Incinerator, Doomfists)160 (GK)
Heavy Support: 1 Wraithlord (2 Flamer, Wraithsword Shuricannon) 110 (EL)
-1500-

Four MCs and Draigo, the beast. I was playing paladins (I have twenty sitting on the shelf now). GKSS trump paladins at 1500-1750. Two psycannons, psybolt, krak and some grenades I rarely use in this list. When I first saw the list I thought ... that cannot work. I mean four psycannons for my antiu-flyer. Thing is that if you load up on flyers at 1500 I will beat you up with my MCs. The list is slow as molasses too. And yet it has been winning a lot of games. And yes, I love my Avatar.

I deploy with the SG taking the brunt of the fire advancing in front of my MCs with the GKSS following behind. Simple and effective. I know I will lose some MCs and my SG.

It is tempting to make my DKs scoring and I sometimes do but I often scout them. I can combat squad the GKSS if needed - don't usually. At 2000 I've added an inquisitor more GKSS and warp spiders. I love these guys in a squad of five DSing when least expected.

I could play the standard list like Dorlsims. I know it works. But I really like a list that is a bit different - even if I stole the idea.

Very unorthodox but I like it. It's refershing to see different builds. So no teleporters on the DK's and no transports? crazy but it seems fun to try at the least

Ran a draigo wing army tonight an I tell you what, the Relic is built with him in mind I swear to god. Took 2 dreadknights and a Storm Raven along with Draigo, Coteaz, a techmarine an the standard 10 Paladins. The DK jumped grabbed the relic and then handed it off to draigo an friends, my opponent played Blood Angels and threw everything but the kitchen sink at draigo an could do anything he multi assaulted with death company and assault terminators and I won combat and made him run.

Coteaz is one of the best psykers in the game now. At 100 points for 2 divination powers, a dh, the ability to take cheap scoring units, the ability to screw with the start of the game, an the ability to shoot anything that just pops up, all at a measly 100pts, show me another psyker as good as Coteaz at that point level.

going to start running Coteaz an Hector Rex together, sure Rex is more expensive but that 2+3+ is nice, just wish they had bumped his toughness instead of strength.

True enough, the Relic is going to be an almost garunteed victory for a Paladin army if they manage to grab it.

My 2 Dreadknights were stars of the show tonight, man I love those things.

Although at the end of the 2nd game I did throw both of them at an enormous squad of gaunts and got tar-pitted; but we still won so its ok.

DK was fighting gaunts, hive tyrant came up from behind, got 1 wound through, DK turned around and got 4; Nemesis Greatsword ftw.

I really like the new strike squad models, but I still would rather use terminators

LValx wrote:
@jy2

If I had the funds and time I'd bring a better list but this is small and quick to build so I settled. The three characters are essential to how I play the unit. They sit at the edges of the formation allowing me to always LoS, after save (this is why same save is essential, so no on the PA inquisitor) on a 2+. It makes the unit extremely durable. The grenades also make the unit near unchargeable, i've tried without and prefer to take them personally. I don't care for MSS or the Orb. Points are tight as is. So far the wraiths havent been an issue at 5 man. There is little sway on points for this list, unfortunately. However, its performed for me and I feel comfortable with it. Hopefully opponents look at it as unbalanced too!


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And I didnt mean for that to be harsh, the nature of a Draigo list is that it is top heavy. And its somewhat poor criticism to simply point that out. I'm pretty happy that ive managed to fit 3 flyers, wraiths and 3 small troops into the list. Compare that to Blackmoors list, his had even less targets.

No worries. I didn't feel your tone harsh at all.

I think your list is a very good one. You can't go wrong by allying necrons and their flyers to almost any list. They especially work well with paladins as they address 2 major issues - mobility and the ability to threaten more targets, including other flyers. There definitely is some good chemistry here.

However, I think the list could be optimized even further. Some slight "tweaks" can mean the difference between a very good list and one that can potentially win the tournament.

But if you like the list the way it is and have been having success with it, then by all means play with what you got and know. Deathstars definitely are a good tournament army because in most cases, they match up well against the majority of armies out there. I myself almost lost to a deathstar list that I thought I should have easily beat in a recent GT. The only thing you will struggle against is against a player who understands how deathstars work and who brought a balanced enough army that can deal with them.




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 sudojoe wrote:
Incidentially, here's a sample of my current cron+gk list. It's still a work in progress and would like some creative feedback on it if possible. It's essentially what I've come down to after messing with crowe lists since 6th launch.

Destroyer lord with MSS + weave (couldn't afford res orb at 1500)
wraiths x6 (no upgrades)

5 man warrior squad x2

Crowe

Purifiers x10 man (4 psycannons, 1 hammer, 5 halberds) (can be combat squadded - hammer is on a squad member, the justicar has a halberd)
(can ride in the SR or hide in buildings or have crowe ride the SR himself)

Storm raven (SR) (MM + LC (or Assault cannon but couldn't afford psybolts)

Doomscythes x2

*this is heavily a work in progress and I'm just trying different things and is in no way a competitive build just yet or at least I haven't tested it as such*

Honestly, I don't see this list working so well against an experienced general with a balanced army. The problem here is the 2 foot warrior squads. They just don't have the mobility to get to the objectives if your opponent focuses on them. The purifiers are a huge target and will receive the brunt of the offense (well, them and the doomscythes....and wraiths). And because they will most likely be on foot (put them in the raven and that's 4 wasted psycannons for a few turns), they will have problems getting to objectives as well. The list will do well in casual play (that's 3 flyers and wraiths!) but in competitive play, I feel that it is slightly lacking in depth.

What I recommend is to get at least 1 night scythe to give your warriors a little more mobility. Better yet, drop 1 doom scythe (+ maybe 1 wraith) and get 2 night scythes instead. Doom scythes are good but they are still just a support unit. Night scythes are essential to protect your troops and get them to where they are needed. They give your list another flyer (4 flyers), more firepower in the form of TL-tesla destructors and better protection and mobility for your most essential units - your troops.

Just my humble opinion on how to make your army just a little more balanced.

BTW, I like your idea of St. Celestine + Jessica Thawn. Too bad you can't ally some ResOrb necron lords to that combo. Lol.




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 Grey Templar wrote:
I think Paladinstars arn't very competitive at all. This is due to the fact that most missions are objective based, and there are usually 4+ of them. Not to mention you can only hold one objective at a time now.

Because of this, and the inherent footsloggin nature of a Paladinstar, they will rarely be able to hold more then one or 2 objectives.

This, combined with the relativly short range of their guns, means that they cannot really contest the other objectives to get the win. The enemy just needs to ignore them, take the other 3 objectives, and then wait for the game to end.

The only reason a Paladin list wins an objective mission is if the opponent is dumb enough to actually engage the Paladins, and then the obvious happens and the enemy gets annhilated.

I think that Draigowing can definitely be competitive. The key is to surround them with enough support units which addresses some of there shortcomings.

With the advent of allies, they've actually become much better than before. Ally some necron allies and they are even better than they were last edition. Mobility, firepower, ability to threaten more targets now and resiliency of said support units....Draigowing can do this much better than they used to be able to thanks to allied air support. There's a reason why necrons are probably the best army right now and you really can't lose by adding their strengths to your army. Honestly, the new Draigowing has surpass even that of Blackmoor's Draigowing, though winning with them still depends on the skill of the general.

I really love running all Paladins and Draigo for my troops, along with a 10 man deathstar... but doing it in 1500 points? damn

The strike squad I took tonight in a Razorback performed reasonably well at holding close objectives while my 5 man Draigo-star marched on more difficult ones.

I guess I could have just taken 2 Paladins instead tho and ran them (no psycannon though).

Dorksim wrote:

Coteaz

10 Purifiers w/4 Psycannons

3 Servitors w/Plasma Cannons
Chimera

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

5 Strikes w/Psycannon
Razorback
Psybolt

Psyfleman Dread

Psyfleman Dread

Psyfleman Dread

Kinda spammy, but what can you do. I am not married to the Servitors, but quite frankly I am not sure what else I should bring for those points.

I have also been considering dropping Coteaz in favor of a couple Xenos inquisitors to bring some Servo Skulls and to make sure the servitors don't mind lock, possibly even allowing me to bring some Acolytes in that squad to hopefully survive long enough to take a home objective.

Thoughts?

Not a bad list. MSU is still competitive in this edition even though vehicles have been nerfed somewhat.

However, I'd dump the plasma servitors and here's why:

- Cannot move and fire those plasma cannons (cannot fire blasts in snapshot mode)

- Cannot use Coteaz's I've Been Expecting You from within a vehicle to fire those plasma cannons. They have to be on foot.


Instead, I'd rather break up that purifier unit into:


5x Purifers - 2x Psycannons (+ halberds if you have the points), Rhino

5x Purifers - 2x Psycannons (+ halberds if you have the points), Rhino

It's all good Jy2.

I certainly know the dangers of playing a deathstar army. But I find enjoyment in playing elite armies, as opposed to more balanced shooting based lists.

If I had to run a TAC list (which I don't actually think is fully possible with the truly BROKEN Flyer mechanic) I would run this at 2K:

Coteaz 100
Rune Priest Jaws/Living Lightning 100
5 WG 4 Combi-melta, 1 TDA w/ Cyclone 155
10 Purifier Squad 4 Psycannon, 2 Hammer, Razorback w/ Psybolts, SL 341
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
10 Strikes 2 Psycannon, 1 Razorback w/ Psybolts 270
5 Strikes 1 Psycannon, 1 Razorback w/ Psybolts, SL 161
5 Purgation Squad 2 Psycannon, 2 Incinerator, Razorback w/ Psybolts 190
5 Long Fangs 4 Missiles 115
Aegis Defence Line Quadgun 100
1992

It doesn't have a large volume of long-range firepower, however, it floods the midfield with MEQs and has weight of fire to help with fliers. With that many bodies you should also be able to restrict flyer movement. I also think 7-10 troops choices is ideal for MEQs. But, that is just one man's opinion.


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I think people have to re-evalute how they run GK. Over-reliance on cheap henchmen no longer works as well. I also don't think 30 MEQ's is enough to compete. With reduced cover and easier to kill vehicles I find it pretty important to field more infantry than before.

LValx wrote:
I think people have to re-evalute how they run GK. Over-reliance on cheap henchmen no longer works as well. I also don't think 30 MEQ's is enough to compete. With reduced cover and easier to kill vehicles I find it pretty important to field more infantry than before.

Yeah, the meta has definitely changed. MSU mech is still competitive. However, it's those builds with just a few transports - maybe 2-4 - that may have problems. I foresee either fully meched or a shift to more infantry-based armies with little to no mech. This is what I am thinking of trying out next. It's more of a fun list to me, but I think it's got the tools to hang with many of the more competitive lists out there. Basically, I am interested in running a horde GK army with little to no allies in my "fun" list.

At 1500:

Coteaz

10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer - 250
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer

Psyfleman - 135
Psyfleman

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns - 100

1470


At 2K:

Coteaz
Librarian - 3x Powers

10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer - 250
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt - 240
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt

Psyfleman - 135
Psyfleman
Psyfleman

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns - 100

2000

or

Coteaz

10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer - 250
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt - 240
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt
7x Strikers - 1x Psycannon, Psybolt - 170

Psyfleman - 135
Psyfleman
Psyfleman

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns - 100

1995

Honestly, I don't see this list working so well against an experienced general with a balanced army. The problem here is the 2 foot warrior squads. They just don't have the mobility to get to the objectives if your opponent focuses on them. The purifiers are a huge target and will receive the brunt of the offense (well, them and the doomscythes....and wraiths). And because they will most likely be on foot (put them in the raven and that's 4 wasted psycannons for a few turns), they will have problems getting to objectives as well. The list will do well in casual play (that's 3 flyers and wraiths!) but in competitive play, I feel that it is slightly lacking in depth.

What I recommend is to get at least 1 night scythe to give your warriors a little more mobility. Better yet, drop 1 doom scythe (+ maybe 1 wraith) and get 2 night scythes instead. Doom scythes are good but they are still just a support unit. Night scythes are essential to protect your troops and get them to where they are needed. They give your list another flyer (4 flyers), more firepower in the form of TL-tesla destructors and better protection and mobility for your most essential units - your troops.

Just my humble opinion on how to make your army just a little more balanced.

BTW, I like your idea of St. Celestine + Jessica Thawn. Too bad you can't ally some ResOrb necron lords to that combo. Lol.

LOL ty, I'm waiting till the new sisters come out in 2013 to really build that army. I'm *gulp* subbing in a daemon princess as st. celestine for now and using my AOBR marines as sisters <_<

I like your ideas for the dooms/night scythes. I deliberately chopped the extra night scythes out because it was actually *too competitive* i.e. friends won't play me lol. With just 3 fliers, they maybe more accomondidating but I totally agree with you on competitive build for that list. I just wish I can cram in a rhino somewhere. Maybe drop a wraith or maybe change one of the dooms into an annhiliation barge and toss in a rhino instead?

LValx wrote:
Meh. You have to keep in mind, I do run support. My support will generally also alphastrike opponents. Not to mention the fact that Wraiths are also extremely durable and destructive for their points. I've played against lists with high volumes of Str. 8 and put them down pretty easily. The big thing is LoS. Its incredibly abusable.

Would you elaborate your specific tactics using LoS with your Paladins mitigating the "high volumes of Str. 8". I am very interested as most of this thread is banter and has nothing to with tactics. Your claim may have promise.

jy2 wrote:Mobility, firepower, ability to threaten more targets now and resiliency of said support units....Draigowing can do this much better than they used to be able to thanks to allied air support.

That's certainly something I'll be thinking about after this coming tournament is done; re-evaluating the list to build around the Paladins themselves, as they have certainly shown their star power in all my games so far, probably most so last night, dealing with Logan, 4 TH/SS Wolf Guard and a pack of Grey Hunters in that game. Better deployment could have seen them do a lot more, but they made their points back.

I love Draigo - I use him in a lot of my lists. I own twenty paladins - they are sitting on the shelf. Honestly, GKSS are simply better than paladins or terminators. I can get thirty GKSS with six psycannons for a paladin squad with two osycannons. I would rather walk my GKSS.

What is with the Aegis Defense Line in a GK list. I would be taking psyfledreads over an AGL all day long. Every game I've played against AGL it has done nothing against my lists. If I need to one round of shooting from MLs or some melta shots will solve the problem it represents. It just does not do enough in a GK list, Use the 100 points for some henchmen in your elite slot and add in the cost of the hammers which you don't need. Then you can have a real cc squad of DCA and crusaders.

 felixcat wrote:

I love Draigo - I use him in a lot of my lists. I own twenty paladins - they are sitting on the shelf. Honestly, GKSS are simply better than paladins or terminators. I can get thirty GKSS with six psycannons for a paladin squad with two osycannons. I would rather walk my GKSS.

What is with the Aegis Defense Line in a GK list. I would be taking psyfledreads over an AGL all day long. Every game I've played against AGL it has done nothing against my lists. If I need to one round of shooting from MLs or some melta shots will solve the problem it represents. It just does not do enough in a GK list, Use the 100 points for some henchmen in your elite slot and add in the cost of the hammers which you don't need. Then you can have a real cc squad of DCA and crusaders.

It has seemed to me that 3+ armor save models tend to die a lot easier than 2+ armor save models. I certainly wouldn't say they are 'simply better'.

The Quadgun should be able to alpha strike a flyer and hopefully cause at least a jink. Psyflemen average less than 2 hits on a flyer, Quadgun averages close to 4. In what way exactly is a Psyfleman better anti-air? Hell, it also costs more and doesn't provide army-wide utility (I hear 4+ cover is pretty good).

I keep my Paladins alive by running Draigo at the very front, the most protruded model in the unit. I keep the techmarine and Coteaz on either side of him, a couple inches out to the side and a quarter inch or so further back than Draigo. I keep the Paladins behind all the independent characters. This means that when you shoot the Paladins, unless you shoot from behind, I will be able to LoS on a 2+ all the time. And since my whole unit has a 2+ save, I can always choose to LoS after I take my save. Basically, in 5th edition if I took 3 Meltagun wounds, I could allocate 1 to Draigo and 2 had to hit the squad. Now Draigo constantly takes those saves and places the high Str wounds on already wounded models. This prevents me from ever being "doubled out."


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just an add-on to what I just said.

Str. 8 doesn't come in that many forms. Missiles are easily ignored by Paladins. As are Psyflemen. Lascannons are very pricey on almost anything that isn't a Vendetta and you still shouldnt expect to take many wounds. Meltaguns must be within 12" which is suicide for any unit willing to do it. Blasts can hurt but that is what my Flyer support is for. It generally comes in and alpha strikes the thing(s) that are most dangerous for the Paladins.

LValx wrote:
The Quadgun should be able to alpha strike a flyer and hopefully cause at least a jink. Psyflemen average less than 2 hits on a flyer, Quadgun averages close to 4. In what way exactly is a Psyfleman better anti-air? Hell, it also costs more and doesn't provide army-wide utility (I hear 4+ cover is pretty good).

I keep my Paladins alive by running Draigo at the very front, the most protruded model in the unit. I keep the techmarine and Coteaz on either side of him, a couple inches out to the side and a quarter inch or so further back than Draigo. I keep the Paladins behind all the independent characters. This means that when you shoot the Paladins, unless you shoot from behind, I will be able to LoS on a 2+ all the time. And since my whole unit has a 2+ save, I can always choose to LoS after I take my save. Basically, in 5th edition if I took 3 Meltagun wounds, I could allocate 1 to Draigo and 2 had to hit the squad. Now Draigo constantly takes those saves and places the high Str wounds on already wounded models. This prevents me from ever being "doubled out."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
just an add-on to what I just said.

Str. 8 doesn't come in that many forms. Missiles are easily ignored by Paladins. As are Psyflemen. Lascannons are very pricey on almost anything that isn't a Vendetta and you still shouldnt expect to take many wounds. Meltaguns must be within 12" which is suicide for any unit willing to do it. Blasts can hurt but that is what my Flyer support is for. It generally comes in and alpha strikes the thing(s) that are most dangerous for the Paladins.

I actually believe if you LoS a wound from a Paladin to Draigo, its a 4+; because its a Character making the LoS, it doesn't matter that it is going to an IC. When Draigo LoSs to a Paladin, its a 2+.

The Paladins are apparently more ready to step in and take a shot to the chest than Draigo is for them

 jy2 wrote:


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 Grey Templar wrote:
I think Paladinstars arn't very competitive at all. This is due to the fact that most missions are objective based, and there are usually 4+ of them. Not to mention you can only hold one objective at a time now.

Because of this, and the inherent footsloggin nature of a Paladinstar, they will rarely be able to hold more then one or 2 objectives.

This, combined with the relativly short range of their guns, means that they cannot really contest the other objectives to get the win. The enemy just needs to ignore them, take the other 3 objectives, and then wait for the game to end.

The only reason a Paladin list wins an objective mission is if the opponent is dumb enough to actually engage the Paladins, and then the obvious happens and the enemy gets annhilated.

I think that Draigowing can definitely be competitive. The key is to surround them with enough support units which addresses some of there shortcomings.

With the advent of allies, they've actually become much better than before. Ally some necron allies and they are even better than they were last edition. Mobility, firepower, ability to threaten more targets now and resiliency of said support units....Draigowing can do this much better than they used to be able to thanks to allied air support. There's a reason why necrons are probably the best army right now and you really can't lose by adding their strengths to your army. Honestly, the new Draigowing has surpass even that of Blackmoor's Draigowing, though winning with them still depends on the skill of the general.

Thats the main issue.

Yes they can be great with proper support. The trouble is fitting that support in. If the game is below 2k you're going to have trouble with that.

 felixcat wrote:

I love Draigo - I use him in a lot of my lists. I own twenty paladins - they are sitting on the shelf. Honestly, GKSS are simply better than paladins or terminators. I can get thirty GKSS with six psycannons for a paladin squad with two osycannons.

Blanket statement with little support, and a statement that based on the discussions of the last weeks, just about everyone here would disagree with. The only evidence you've given so far if that Strikes get more Psycannons, but Psycannons alone don't make it a better choice, and more overall, damage in shooting overall doesn't make it a better choice. The game is about more than brute force, and even then, the Paladins do serious damage in all phases, not just one, and can do it more reliably as they can stand in the middle of the field and take the hits while those Strikes can't.

BTW, the most important thing here is your mistake with the math in this instance; 5 Paladins with two Psycannons is 315pts, 30 Strikes with 6 Psycannons is 660pts.

Hey Guys,

Love the Paladin discussion since I use them and terminators all the time. However, how does an AV2 army handle a blood angels list or any SM list that fields three vindis? I just can't seem to kill them fast enough before they move 12 in and then drop 3 S10 pie plates on all my AV2 guys.

It's difficult, but then again that's why it's best not to load your army out on such units. One unit of Paladins is enough, preferably with Draigo to score. Fill out the rest with a more rounded army that, as jy2 pointed out earlier, handles the weaknesses of the Paladins.

You know a bastion is not 100 points. You need a squad that can fire the guns which mneans they cannot fire at something else. Take this example ..

Icarus Laser:
18.5% chance of downing AV10
14.8% chance of downing AV11
11.1% chance of downing AV12

Psyfleman Dread:
17.5% chance of downing AV10
12.4% chance of downing AV11
7.8% chance of downing AV12

Single Broadside:
15.2% chance of downing AV10
12.7% chance of downing AV11
10.2% chance of downing AV12

I'll take my flexible psyfledread. Or even a russ as an allied heavy. My buiggest problem with bastions is that flyers come on turn two. That leaves my opponent aturn to deal with the bastion and they are not impervious - melta, lots of mls, lascannons ...

BTW, the most important thing here is your mistake with the math in this instance; 5 Paladins with two Psycannons is 315pts, 30 Strikes with 6 Psycannons is 660pts

My apologies. I'm no authority and the math is off. Here are my thoughts though ...

So 10 paladins w/ 4 psycannons. Still it is ten bodies. I prefer thirty with thirty percent more dakka. I don't think paladins are awful. It did kind of sound that way. I have played draigowing through 5ed. Even then my GKSS lists were overall better for me - i stress for me here. . I don't mind a small squad of five ... I get that. I just prefer running without them though. They are a distraction and annoying and hard as nails but when the vindicator shot hits ... that has been my experience in 6ed. The GKSS are marines that have all the good grenades and plenty of dakka. I love my psycannons ... I don't dsee any fault in them as long as you have some support.

That said ... I'm sure there are ways to make them work better than my experiences with them.

 felixcat wrote:
You know a bastion is not 100 points.

Not sure who this is in reply to, as it doesn't match to any of the other posts above that I can see, but if someone refered to a Quad Gun for 100pts, it's because they were talking about the Aegis Defence Line, and not a Bastion, because quite frankly, the Aegis Line is both better and cheaper.

 felixcat wrote:
So 10 paladins w/ 4 psycannons. Still it is ten bodies. I prefer thirty with thirty percent more dakka. I don't think paladins are awful. It did kind of sound that way. I have played draigowing through 5ed. Even then my GKSS lists were overall better for me

And there's the crux of the matter, and IMO the key element to why this argument is flawed; that's in 5th edition. In 5th edition Strikes were miles better than Paladins as for Paladins to work you had to go all out and buy specific gear for each guy etc., while also making sure that the rest of the army could still handle to tens of tanks that were in most armies. Things have changed a lot now however, and this is no longer the case.

Now the Paladins are more durable, don't have to worry about mech SPAM ruining their day, are much cheaper to build on average, and in contrast to those Strikes, can put out their 24" hurt a lot more reliably, as they can stand in the middle of the field and laugh. Those Strikes might have 30 wounds, but those Paladins have 20 wounds still and a save that mitigates 16% more damage than that of the Strikes. It takes 12 wounds to kill one Paladin (though LOS makes this sticky), and only 3 wounds to kill one Strike. So that's 120 wounds to kill the 10 Paladins, and 90 wounds to kill the Strikes. This is for AP4, 5, 6, and - of course. At AP3 the Paladins get even better. At AP1-2, they are the exact same, needing 30 wounds each for wipe out.

I use a cheapo rhino with a storm bolter to shoot my quad gun. BS 4 still and unlikely to be in range of much else or can be fired at BS2 auto fire I suppose. Objective camping units can also take advantage of the quad gun. It's quite flexible.

LValx wrote:
The Quadgun should be able to alpha strike a flyer and hopefully cause at least a jink. Psyflemen average less than 2 hits on a flyer, Quadgun averages close to 4. In what way exactly is a Psyfleman better anti-air? Hell, it also costs more and doesn't provide army-wide utility (I hear 4+ cover is pretty good).

I keep my Paladins alive by running Draigo at the very front, the most protruded model in the unit. I keep the techmarine and Coteaz on either side of him, a couple inches out to the side and a quarter inch or so further back than Draigo. I keep the Paladins behind all the independent characters. This means that when you shoot the Paladins, unless you shoot from behind, I will be able to LoS on a 2+ all the time. And since my whole unit has a 2+ save, I can always choose to LoS after I take my save. Basically, in 5th edition if I took 3 Meltagun wounds, I could allocate 1 to Draigo and 2 had to hit the squad. Now Draigo constantly takes those saves and places the high Str wounds on already wounded models. This prevents me from ever being "doubled out."

Unless I totally misread the rules myself (which I didn't) you cannot LOS the wound after taking the save with draigo. You have to LOS before deciding which model takes the save. You only LOS after rolling to wound, if the whole unit has the same saves. Doing it after taking a save with draigo in a paladin squad is just shy of dastardly, imo

Coyote wrote:Unless I totally misread the rules myself (which I didn't) you cannot LOS the wound after taking the save with draigo. You have to LOS before deciding which model takes the save. You only LOS after rolling to wound, if the whole unit has the same saves. Doing it after taking a save with draigo in a paladin squad is just shy of dastardly, imo

The unit does have the same save mate.

The unit does have the same save mate.

Draogo has a 3+ inv and paladins a 5+ inv or am reading this incorrectly? Thus any wound that is AP2 or lower would be allocated after saves, no? So plasma , starcannon, melta, las, etc., cannot be allocated after saves.

The Quadgun should be able to alpha strike a flyer and hopefully cause at least a jink.

Possibly. But flyers come on turn two. The quad is not that hard to take out turn one with lists spamming str 8+. Which flyer lists should do. And the quad is not too good against anything but flyers. I would use one in a non-GK list.

On another note - I would be well pleased trading ten paladins for twenty GKSS w/ 4 psycannons ... I'll throw in a techmarine and vindicare too and if you have a wraithlord w/ sword and shuricannon and an Avatar I'll are trade my quad autocannoin AGL. I'm not convinced I need them in my list at all.

just wondering how Flyer lists spam strength 8? Or even low AP?

Necrons have hardly any long ranged strength 8. Most of their weaponry is midrange.

DE have some long range strength 8 but not reliable if they trade Ravagers for flyers.

Guard dont have a way to spam str 8 in the heavy, they really just have blasts.

Only MEQ Flyer lists can spam str 8. And they can't really spam flyers.

Guard can put tons of missile launchers on the table for really cheap.

The same for DE with Dark Lances.

 felixcat wrote:

The unit does have the same save mate.

Draogo has a 3+ inv and paladins a 5+ inv or am reading this incorrectly? Thus any wound that is AP2 or lower would be allocated after saves, no? So plasma , starcannon, melta, las, etc., cannot be allocated after saves.

Yes but this is only for AP2 wounds (and AP1 of course). Otherwise they have the same save and you can throw out the LOS after saves. Still, I find it moot, as I would rather take as much as possible on Draigo without killing him anyway; I mean, it takes 12 AP1 or AP2 wounds to kill him, and 24 of any other AP. On average of course.

furbyballer wrote:
Hey Guys,

Love the Paladin discussion since I use them and terminators all the time. However, how does an AV2 army handle a blood angels list or any SM list that fields three vindis? I just can't seem to kill them fast enough before they move 12 in and then drop 3 S10 pie plates on all my AV2 guys.

Take some Telepathy on a libby. :] Why kill his tanks if you can make them shoot his own stuff?

Brometheus wrote:

furbyballer wrote:Hey Guys,

Love the Paladin discussion since I use them and terminators all the time. However, how does an AV2 army handle a blood angels list or any SM list that fields three vindis? I just can't seem to kill them fast enough before they move 12 in and then drop 3 S10 pie plates on all my AV2 guys.

Take some Telepathy on a libby. :] Why kill his tanks if you can make them shoot his own stuff?

That's assuming he rolls the right power.

Conversely, Telepathy is the discipline with Objectus Mechanum right?

I don't even wanna hear about them not being able to get Hallucination or Puppet Master with as many rolls as a GK Libby can get, my friend.

Objuration Mechanicum is in Telekinesis. Do GK even have access to that? Not being a smartass, at all. I have no idea!

Besides, let's face it. If you don't have Halluc/Puppet, you probably have Invisibility. Win! Why fight tanks if you can laugh at them.

Libby can get 3 rolls max. And that's for 200pts. And even then, he can only stop one of the Vindicators a turn.

 Brometheus wrote:
I don't even wanna hear about them not being able to get Hallucination or Puppet Master with as many rolls as a GK Libby can get, my friend.

Objuration Mechanicum is in Telekinesis. Do GK even have access to that? Not being a smartass, at all. I have no idea!

Besides, let's face it. If you don't have Halluc/Puppet, you probably have Invisibility. Win! Why fight tanks if you can laugh at them.

GKs do have Telekinesis. They don't have Telepathy.

Very well, then disregard my shoddy advice gentlemen, apologies all around.

Easy mistake mate, hell, as I've just displayed, I don't know which discipline from which unless it is Divination.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Easy mistake mate, hell, as I've just displayed, I don't know which discipline from which unless it is Divination.

Yeah. Most of my reasoning goes "Oh he has psychic powers? We'll I'll pick from divination then" these days. Just so good.

Posted this over in the army list section and have not received any replies, an this is a tactics question. I am going to be running this list against Orcs, my opponent knows what I am bringing, and I know that he can build just about any Orc build there is. I am sure to see Defcoptas, Lootaz, and Biker Nobz. Now here is where the question on tactics comes in, the mission is the relic, basically get to the objective first and hold on for dear life. With only that goal in mind, how do you think Draigo an friends will fare? The Dreadknights job is the get the objective and then run like hell back to Draigo. I have 63 extra points and I am thinking about sticking Draigo behind an Aegis defense line for cover saves against any Str 8 Ap2 stuff he brings, and try to LOS any low AP stuff to Draigo.

Draigo 275pts

Coteaz 100pts

Techmarine: rad grenades, Blind Grenades - 105pts

10 paladins w/ 4 psycannon, apothecary, banner, stave, 4 hammers, 4 halberds or swords - 750

3x Warrior Acolytes 12pts

Stormraven w/ TL Assault Cannon, TL Heavy Bolter, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolt Ammo 255pts
Stormraven w/ TL Plasma Cannon an TL Multi Melta 205pts

Dreadknight : personal teleporter, heavy incinerator - 235

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 felixcat wrote:

The unit does have the same save mate.

Draogo has a 3+ inv and paladins a 5+ inv or am reading this incorrectly? Thus any wound that is AP2 or lower would be allocated after saves, no? So plasma , starcannon, melta, las, etc., cannot be allocated after saves.

Yes but this is only for AP2 wounds (and AP1 of course). Otherwise they have the same save and you can throw out the LOS after saves. Still, I find it moot, as I would rather take as much as possible on Draigo without killing him anyway; I mean, it takes 12 AP1 or AP2 wounds to kill him, and 24 of any other AP. On average of course.

Maybe my group plays it a little different. We don't assume that a unit has the same or different save on a case by case difference. I our eyes, when you look at paladins and draigo, the paladins have 2+/5++, draigo has 2+/3++. Therefore the unit is a mixed armor unit at all times. I believe this si the way the rules are meant to be played, not based on the weapon being shot at them.

Coyote81 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 felixcat wrote:

The unit does have the same save mate.

Draogo has a 3+ inv and paladins a 5+ inv or am reading this incorrectly? Thus any wound that is AP2 or lower would be allocated after saves, no? So plasma , starcannon, melta, las, etc., cannot be allocated after saves.

Yes but this is only for AP2 wounds (and AP1 of course). Otherwise they have the same save and you can throw out the LOS after saves. Still, I find it moot, as I would rather take as much as possible on Draigo without killing him anyway; I mean, it takes 12 AP1 or AP2 wounds to kill him, and 24 of any other AP. On average of course.

Maybe my group plays it a little different. We don't assume that a unit has the same or different save on a case by case difference. I our eyes, when you look at paladins and draigo, the paladins have 2+/5++, draigo has 2+/3++. Therefore the unit is a mixed armor unit at all times. I believe this si the way the rules are meant to be played, not based on the weapon being shot at them.

If that's how your group agrees to play it, then that's awesome for ye. But the rules are that LOS is based on the save to be taken. So if they all have 2+ armour but different invul., the time of declaration of LOS is dependant on which save you have to take. But as I said, I'm not going to dispute your group's right to play it as ye want, and after all, this isn't a rules forum.

What does it matter if they have the same save though?

killerdou wrote:
What does it matter if they have the same save though?

Not sure I understand yor question but I will try and answer it. If a unit all have to take the same save, you take all of your saves, and then can declare LOS for any fails. If the unit have to take saves that differ, such as Draigo's Storm Shield and the Paladins TDA, then all LOS must be declared before the saves are taken.

I mean, how does the order in which you do LOS/saves matter if the save is the same?

killerdou wrote:
I mean, how does the order in which you do LOS/saves matter if the save is the same?

It doesn't, so far as I can see, so long as the save in question is the same.

That said, when dealing with a unit of ten paladins, Draigo and Coteaz, I find it's faster for me, and clearer for my opponent, if I take saves and LOS! rolls one at a time as appropriate rather then batch rolling, especially in assaults where often I have so many sorts of saves (2+, 2++, 3++, 4+, 5+, -) that keeping track of batches becomes confusing to my feeble brain (which is generally concentrating on how best to LOS! rather than wanting to worry about how many rolls I can LOS! before and after saves.

LOS is somewhat complicated, but once you do it a few times, it's easy to get the hang of.

Say a tact squad with plasma and lascannon fires at Draigo's unit.

Against the regular bolters, everyone in the unit has a 2+ against them so you roll their saves first. Then afterwards, you can do LOS to re-allocate the unsaved wounds.

Then when it comes to the lascannon and plasma shots, your unit has different saves. Draigo is 3++ while everyone else is 5++. Thus, against the AP2 shots, the unit is a unit with mixed saves. Now you have to declare LOS first before rolling your saves.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

valace2 wrote:
Posted this over in the army list section and have not received any replies, an this is a tactics question. I am going to be running this list against Orcs, my opponent knows what I am bringing, and I know that he can build just about any Orc build there is. I am sure to see Defcoptas, Lootaz, and Biker Nobz. Now here is where the question on tactics comes in, the mission is the relic, basically get to the objective first and hold on for dear life. With only that goal in mind, how do you think Draigo an friends will fare? The Dreadknights job is the get the objective and then run like hell back to Draigo. I have 63 extra points and I am thinking about sticking Draigo behind an Aegis defense line for cover saves against any Str 8 Ap2 stuff he brings, and try to LOS any low AP stuff to Draigo.

Draigo 275pts

Coteaz 100pts

Techmarine: rad grenades, Blind Grenades - 105pts

10 paladins w/ 4 psycannon, apothecary, banner, stave, 4 hammers, 4 halberds or swords - 750

3x Warrior Acolytes 12pts

Stormraven w/ TL Assault Cannon, TL Heavy Bolter, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolt Ammo 255pts
Stormraven w/ TL Plasma Cannon an TL Multi Melta 205pts

Dreadknight : personal teleporter, heavy incinerator - 235

The problems here is your scoring units. Simply put, you just don't have enough. Too much potatoes (support units, mega-expensive troop) and not enough meat (scoring units).

I don't recommend the Apothecary because that unit is already so hard to kill. I also don't recommend the techmarine for the same reason. Who in their right minds would want to assault that unit?!? Just kill off the support units instead.

If it were me, I'd try to make the army a little more balanced. Personally, I'd drop the techie and 1 stormraven (the cheaper one) in order to get more scoring units in there (or even for a 2nd dreadknight, at least he can be made scoring with Grand Strategy). If I need the points, I'd drop the Apothecary as well.

See in any other mission your advice would be sound, but this is the Relic, mission #6 in the BRB. Basically you are playing keep away with the only objective in this mission, don't need scoring units. Draigo makes the DK scoring he jumps grabs the relic and then runs back to Draigo an friends.

So my question is, how much punishment can Draigo an friends actually take. If the DK lives after hopefully getting the relic back to Draigo, I shunt him at the best target, prolly Lootaz or Coptaz. The Storm Ravens come in and mulch up the hordes.

But the above army is specifically tailored to The Relic, so toughening the squad that will hold the relic can only be a good thing.

As a general rule though, while i wouldn't take the techmarine, I think you're wrong about the apothecary. FNP is marginally useful to the squad but very useful to Draigo who, with its aid, should save another couple of paladins. I never thought the apotyecary worth his points in 5th but now for a large squad led by Draigo, I think he's a bargain.

The problems here is your scoring units. Simply put, you just don't have enough. Too much potatoes (support units, mega-expensive troop) and not enough meat (scoring units).

This has been my concern. I feel we need scoring units and thus GKSS are in some ways better than Paladins albeit not as durable. I can combat squad three GKSS units if needed (after assigning psybolt) and I'm not sure you want to combat squad pallies at all. I also wonder why tech marines are so popular. I'm not going to rehash what has been stated already in this thread though. That is not to say you should not use paladins if you like them. They are a powerful force on the table top that soaks fire and puts out good damage. They are pita to take out and annoying and distracting for sure. Below 1850 I find them difficult to use myself without hurting the rest of my list. Coteaz is a great HQ choice . But why just three acolytes? I would either use them in razors (which this list does not support) or I would beef them up to do some damage (jokaero or plasma servitors?)

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:
But the above army is specifically tailored to The Relic, so toughening the squad that will hold the relic can only be a good thing.

As a general rule though, while i wouldn't take the techmarine, I think you're wrong about the apothecary. FNP is marginally useful to the squad but very useful to Draigo who, with its aid, should save another couple of paladins. I never thought the apotyecary worth his points in 5th but now for a large squad led by Draigo, I think he's a bargain.

Against Orcs with lots of low strength weapons, I think the apothecary is worth his points in this mission. As far as the techmarine goes, I like him for busting down the Nobz to T4 and to negate attacks with the Blind grenades. If you were to take him out, what would you put in his place that would work for the Relic. I need Draigo's squad to dig in and stay alive for 6 turns. In a perfect world I would get foreboding with Coteaz, but I think the Techmarine helps with his flamer and plasma shots at close range.

So my question is, how much punishment can Draigo an friends actually take

A lot.

I've just juggled my 2000 point list a little to add Coteaz to it but in my games so far my paladin squad has never taken more than 50% casualties and on two occasions has basically won the game by itself almost regardless of supports. Now granted so far it has won Relic x 2, Purge x 1, Scouring x 2, Big Guns (5 objectives) x 1 and lost Crusade (3 objectives) x 1, so the bulk of the wins have been well suited to the list (though I don't think high numbers of objectives games are as bad as folk tend to think for this sort of list -- it's Emperor's Will that I'm cautious about). For what it's worth, opponents have been Templars, Necrons, Space Wolves, Mech/Vendetta Imperial Weaklings, Space Fairy/Evil Space Faerie alliance, Only the Space Wolf player is someone I'd expect to beat regularly rather than the game being roughly equal. All lists bar the Space Wolf one built with competition in mind. Sole loss to Necrons. Now I wouldn't read a huge amount into a small number of games involving a small number of polayers while the edition is still young and everyone's puzzling out the best way to handle the new horror units. But ten paladins, including apothecary and stave, led by Draigo with Coteaz tagging along is not only ridiculously tough, it hits hard too (thanks to prescience)

Coteaz adds hugely to the killing power of the paladin unit, Prescience much reducing the time it takes them to chew up enemy units with 2+ armour.

 felixcat wrote:
This has been my concern. I feel we need scoring units and thus GKSS are in some ways better than Paladins albeit not as durable. I can combat squad three GKSS units if needed (after assigning psybolt) and I'm not sure you want to combat squad pallies at all. I also wonder why tech marines are so popular. I'm not going to rehash what has been stated already in this thread though. That is not to say you should not use paladins if you like them. They are a powerful force on the table top that soaks fire and puts out good damage. They are pita to take out and annoying and distracting for sure. Below 1850 I find them difficult to use myself without hurting the rest of my list. Coteaz is a great HQ choice . But why just three acolytes? I would either use them in razors (which this list does not support) or I would beef them up to do some damage (jokaero or plasma servitors?)

The 3 acolytes are there because I need a dirt cheap 2nd troop choice. As Coteaz goes with Draigo servitors are out of the question and I don't have the points or models for the jokaero, although they would be nice. The Storm Ravens provide the ranged sniping though.

Valace, my comments about the apothecary were directed to jv2. I'd never take the apothecary out of a 10 man paladin squad. Ever. Assuming 2000 points available (maybe even as low as 1750). And that goes double if the mission is Relic.

The scoring situation for general lists brought up by jy2 and felixcat are spot on. Too many lists are trying to minimise Troops, but despite the fact that you only need a lot of Troops for 1 of the 6 missions (2-3 missions depending on your FA and HS choices), you still need to account for the fact that most units are more killy in this edition, and so those Troops are harder to keep alive.

This is why I mix it up; I have 5 Paladins with Draigo, but I also have 2 full Strike Squads also, for a potential 5 scoring units, not counting Grand Strategy (which I think is best used for other options now). This gives multiple scoring units, while allowing at least 1 to be sturdy enough to last it. While I love Paladins, I think more than 5 with Draigo is too much, as you move into rock-paper-scissors territory.

Balance is the new filth, as they say.

BTW, I've noticed a lot of discussions hinging on the fact that different people play different points values at the moment, since a norm. hasn't yet been established, so for the record, I play 1999pts normally with the least being 1850pts, so anything I say is coming from that stand point.

 jy2 wrote:
At 1500:

Coteaz

10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer - 250
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt, Hammer

Psyfleman - 135
Psyfleman

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns - 100

1470

Ok, just got in a test game using my GK foot-list. This is what I ended up bringing.


Coteaz (Divination, Warlord)
Xenos Inquisitor - Level 1 Psyker, Force Sword, Psyka-troke Grenades (Divination)

10x Strike Squad - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
10x Strike Squad - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
10x Strike Squad - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
10x Strike Squad - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo

Psyfleman Dreadnought - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dreadnought - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns


Basically, my army relies on shooting buffed by psychic powers. With good shooting and decent assault, it's only real weakness is its mobility, which I will compensate for by deepstriking 1, maybe 2 units of strikers. You can check the batrep here:


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/472234.page





Automatically Appended Next Post:

valace2 wrote:
See in any other mission your advice would be sound, but this is the Relic, mission #6 in the BRB. Basically you are playing keep away with the only objective in this mission, don't need scoring units. Draigo makes the DK scoring he jumps grabs the relic and then runs back to Draigo an friends.

So my question is, how much punishment can Draigo an friends actually take. If the DK lives after hopefully getting the relic back to Draigo, I shunt him at the best target, prolly Lootaz or Coptaz. The Storm Ravens come in and mulch up the hordes.

In all my armies, I try to look at it from a balanced, Take-All-Comer's perspective. Because today, you may be facing orks in the Relic, but what about tomorrow? So my advice is usually from the perspective of how to make the army a TAC one that you should be able to run against any other army in any mission. But it is perfectly fine to tailor your list to the enemy and mission. I just don't really recommend it and my advice usually reflects that.

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:
But the above army is specifically tailored to The Relic, so toughening the squad that will hold the relic can only be a good thing.

As a general rule though, while i wouldn't take the techmarine, I think you're wrong about the apothecary. FNP is marginally useful to the squad but very useful to Draigo who, with its aid, should save another couple of paladins. I never thought the apotyecary worth his points in 5th but now for a large squad led by Draigo, I think he's a bargain.

My concern isn't whether FNP is good/useful or not. I know it's good and will use it in larger games (think 2500 or Apoc).

The problem is that it just discourages your opponent (if he is competent) from shooting at your deathstar. In turn, this encourages him to focus on your support unit which is what you don't want. Your deathstar is already so hard to kill. If you make it any harder, your opponent will just start to ignore it. You want him to focus his offense on your deathstar because they can take it. Your support units can't! That's how you beat deathstar armies. Focus on the support and ignore the deathstar (as long as you have the mobility to get away from it). How much can they kill anyways if they don't get a multi-charge?

Well you summed it up well, you've got all the guns and bodies in the world, but the game will come down to whether or not those guns and bodies can take down the Scythes. I like the list, but would be uncomfortable myself without flyers; then again I play with 499pts more than this, so I could just add 2 Ravens with points to spare.

Looking forward to seeing how that works out.

I'm a big fan of foot lists too. But some codexes really don't put out the dakka in a foot list and feel awkward. I like the list jy2.

As has been mentioned GK do stand up well on their own ( not that they don't work well in allied forces) but other codexes could use a GK boost to make them considerably stronger

The more I examine GK I start to think of how they work as allied detachments rather than primary. I have been playing GK as primary with eldar as an attachment in a modified MC list. I'm going to reverse it at 2000.

My reasoning is that I want to cherry pick allies to improve my list. Otherwise allies have no purpose. Rather than 3 DKs and 1 WL I'll use 1 DK and 3 Scatter Wls to get an Eldrad/Avatar combo fit in. I still get 20 GKSS in the list and lots of scatterlaser guardian squads.

.

But surely an Eldar/GK alliance basically renders useless the GK psychic powers as they'll be taken on 3d6 with perils for failure?

Yeah, until the FAQ comes out when assuredly they will make it so RoW only effects the actual enemy models(and possably Desperate Allies too)

Yeah, until the FAQ comes out when assuredly they will make it so RoW only effects the actual enemy models(and possably Desperate Allies too)

Two chances of that happening.

Slim and fat.

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:

Yeah, until the FAQ comes out when assuredly they will make it so RoW only effects the actual enemy models(and possably Desperate Allies too)

Two chances of that happening.

Slim and fat.

I couldn't agree more. Allies of Convenience being classed as enemy units was implemented for a reason. They aren't going to circumvent that by simply FAQ'ing out all meaning to it.

I just hope that Allies of Convenience can at least be scoring. At the moment RAW makes it seem as such, but its still vague.

The troops choices for Allies of Convenience are scoring, no question. It's only Allies of Desperation that are neither scoring nor denial.

I just finished up my game, it was close, my paladins managed to kill off Ghazgull an 18 man squad, a 6 man squad, and a 5 man biker nob squad. He managed to get to the relic first, my storm ravens did well, but it ended on turn 5 an he had 6 boys still holding the objective, just my frikin luck. He had a shock attack gun which was a pain in the ass all game. His last round of shooting he managed to pie plate me at str 8, Draigo was in front and he made 5 3+ invulns, it was awesome. I made a mistake though the 6 boys were back in a truck in some trees and I sent both Storm Ravens hovering after it, the MM shot just stunned the damn thing, and the 2nd Raven managed to wreck it, I should have shot what was left of Draigo's squad into it, an then fired the Storm Raven into the remaining 6 boys. I didn't anticipate the game ending and didn't want Draigo trying to make a bunch of shock attack saves so I ran em towards the 6 boys instead. If the game hadn't ended I would have killed off the remaining 6 and I would have won 2-1 instead of losing 4-2. Kinda sucks but thats my luck. Draigo's force did very very well, but were bogged down most of the game, in the combat before he was killed Ghazgull made 10 saves. I was able to kill him the next round though.

I played a version of this list against a BA player and it did very very well. I like this list for the Relic and don't think I need to change it.

So ye determine which mission ye are playing always before building lists? That kinda takes away from the game a bit; ye'll never really learn that way.

But surely an Eldar/GK alliance basically renders useless the GK psychic powers as they'll be taken on 3d6 with perils for failure?

There is that. Mt list does not need the psychic powers much - but I would hate to perils all game. Probably best to leave a farser or Eldrad out of the list









-

So do you guys think 5 Paladins + Draigo (possibly Apo) at 1500 is enough to maintain pretty solid effectiveness?

I still need to try out that build I posted a few days back a bit more before the tourney.

Basically the 2 lists I am running...

Draigo
10 Pal (totally tricked out)
1 Pal
Dreadknight (Tele, sword, incin)
Psyrifle Dread

vs

Draigo
5 Pal (2mcPsy, Apo)
5 Strikes (Psy, MCDH for Justicar)
PsyRazor
2 Dreadknights (tele, sword, incin)
Psyrifle Dread

The mobility of the strikes is nice, but I need more games to see if I like it better than the deathstar build. Both are 1500 pts, this is my point value until the local tourney bumps it up.

1 unit of Strikes, 1 Psyback and 1 Dread in isolation won't be incredibly effective. I think 5 Paladins and Draigo is enough; this is what I play and have never needed the Apothecary.

One Dreadknight is enough at that points value, so I'd drop one, and the Apothecary, and get another Dread and a second Strike Squad. You should even have a small few points left over for whatever.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
1 unit of Strikes, 1 Psyback and 1 Dread in isolation won't be incredibly effective. I think 5 Paladins and Draigo is enough; this is what I play and have never needed the Apothecary.

One Dreadknight is enough at that points value, so I'd drop one, and the Apothecary, and get another Dread and a second Strike Squad. You should even have a small few points left over for whatever.

I still like the Apo, but I'll try this:

Draigo

Strike 5x (psycannon)
PsyRazor

Strike 5x (psycannon)
PsyRazor

Paladin 5x (2MCPsy, Apo)

Dreadknight (Tele, Incin)

Psyrifle Dread
Psyrifle Dread

1500

If we ended up adding points I'd probably go with just more Paladins/Dreadknights anyway. I have like 15 Paladins and I barely get to use them most of the time

Thats the one thing I don't like. The change to where Perils doesn't allow ANY saves is kinda harsh. And since those stupid Eldar get a 3+ "save" against it is even worse.

You still get FNP against it though.

Whoop-de-frikkin-do!

Only Libbys hanging out with Paladins are going to have that luxury.

That's true, but its still funny and most people forget it.

That is our biggest problem playing GK. Annoying psykers. And we only have one real defense -a stormraven gunship. A single stormraven won't last long though. It will likely get destroyed by turn three. It's also expensive. We can add a rune priests and at least avoid perils although hamering our own psychic powers.It's an option that doesn't hurt our list - GH are decent troops w/ melta and a vindicator, an extra dread or a small squad of long fangs can be useful. I guess you could try a vindicare to get rid of a psyker as well. Not my favorite option.
So what do you think? Just hope for th best or add psychic defense.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
So ye determine which mission ye are playing always before building lists? That kinda takes away from the game a bit; ye'll never really learn that way.

Was an introductory campaign for 6th, we played a different mission each week.

So ye determine which mission ye are playing always before building lists? That kinda takes away from the game a bit; ye'll never really learn that way.

I'm not so sure about that. Personally I always play the same sort of list, maybe tweaking a little as I go along but always having my list written before rolling for mission -- unless playing in a campaign when it adds a lot to the flavopur to tailor lists for missions, I find. So long as both players have a good range of models for their codex, tailoring for mission can add a lot to the game, allowing in models that would not find their way into an all comers list and allowing greater varietyhin the armies you face. I've always been surprised that GW haven't gone with this route (which is the preferred Malifaux method for gameplay) as it would encourage wider buying.

I do agree that with the 40K convention being all-comers, it's best to have an all comers list and to be able to play it in all missions. Of course what is all comers and what is unbalanced is subjective anyway.

We can add a rune priests and at least avoid perils although hamering our own psychic powers

Allied Farseer hurts us but allied Rune Priest doesn't, because you are still the one who makes the choice to activate the whippy stick. So you just don't do it.

Yeah, Rune Priests will actually be a better choice for us. That basically gives us a secondary DtW roll.

I don't think it is necessary though, especially for gunline type armies with Dreads.

Well, Dreadnoughts do give us some hefty anti-psyker for sure. I actually have always wondered why the Dreadknight didn't get Reinforced Aegis too.

Not to mention all our units have a 5+ DtW roll.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, Dreadnoughts do give us some hefty anti-psyker for sure. I actually have always wondered why the Dreadknight didn't get Reinforced Aegis too.

Not to mention all our units have a 5+ DtW roll.

Oh man, DK with reinforced aegis? That would be amazing.

Oh man, DK with reinforced aegis? That would be amazing

you left off '-ly broken' at the end of that sentence.

Actually I exaggerate a little there of course but i do think it'd be a bit much really.

I really don't see how it would be broken.

A teliporter Dreadknight would only be protecting itself really.

Grey Templar wrote:Not to mention all our units have a 5+ DtW roll.

Forgot about that.

Played against IG Chim-plas-spam tonight; was actually tougher than most of the games I played in the recent tourney. IG will full vet-plasma is nasty.

I was running
Draigo
5Pal (2MCpsy, Apo)
5 Strike (Psy), RazorPsy
5 Strike (Psy), RazorPsy
Psyrifle Dread
Psyrifle Dread
Dreadknight (tele, incin)

He was running
CCS w/ plasma
6 Vet squads, 3 plasma apiece
4 Chimeras
Executioner w/ plasma sponsons
2 Vendettas
Manticore
(IS THIS REALLY 1500PTS FFS?!)

Was crusade with 3 objectives, night fighting first turn.

Notable achievements was the Dreadknight getting 5 explode results on the Executioner, then getting absolutely melted by vet squads and vendettas. Also Draigo and Pals failing a ton of multi-laser saves, then saving off about 15 plasma shots near the end of the game.

I ended up losing both Razorbacks, my Dreadknight, 1 Psyrifle, and 1 paladin. The 4 remaining pals had 1 wound each at the end of the game, and Draigo had 2 left. Both strike squads were at full strength, but they didn't do much of anything for most of the game, other than one of my Psycannons put the final hull point on a vendetta.

He had like 4 depleted squads left, his CCS, and 1 chimera, everything else was gone.

I won 7 to 3, first blood and 2 objectives to his 1 objective at the end of turn 6.

Need to get a few more games in with this list... seems alright I guess; Strike psycannons don't seem to do much though. Tough opponent!

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I don't think it is necessary though, especially for gunline type armies with Dreads.

I find the Rune Priest helps the gunline msu style, as it slots in well. You can supplement your long range fire with Living Lightning and your Grey Hunters can contentedly hold a backfield objective so you can push the MSU strike squads forward more aggressively. I've been running such a unit supplementing a list based on mass 5 man Strikes in assault cannon razorbacks with triple dreadnought fire support. If you're the aggressor in the matchup, the grey hunters can push up as part of the wall and adds specials you can't take with knights. I think the Rune Priest choice is solid since you still reinforce your primary strength of MEQ with medium gunboats, while adding psychic defense and melta.

My first game with this concept was a onesided butchering of a weird hybrid Necron list, followed by a couple clean wins on orks and DE. Kind of funny I never made use of the runic weapon. 4x Five Strikes with psycannon, razorback, psybolt assault cannon, 3 psyflemen, psyker inquisitor with combi melta and power armour, rune priest and grey hunters with a meltagun in a rhino. Expanded up to 1750 v the orks with a Wolf rifleman and second GH pack, fundamentally same concept.

I was thinking of getting some space marine scouts to paint up as my warrior acolytes with bolt-guns, would this be legal at tournaments etc?

Been using henchman to great success, just need to paint up some models for a tournament and was wondering if this idea would be excepted.

I've been using cadians and karskin as henchmen, and in none of the tournaments I've been there has been a problem.

I also have 4 cadians with an orange helmet, as jokaeros D:

Are there even any Acolyte models?

No. The GK book shows IG stormtroopers as a good model for an acolyte implying that they are more of a kit bash unit if you get my meaning.

In tournaments they've to be flexible with them, because, tell me what model I could use with a frag armor and bolter, there is none afaik.

I used a regular Cadians with a GK paint scheme. Had to make some cuts to put bolters/plasma guns on them, but they worked.

Everyone has their own style for them really. Mine are Flagellants with guns, because to me nothing screams 'Acolyte' like a Flagellant.

DakotaBlue wrote:
In tournaments they've to be flexible with them, because, tell me what model I could use with a frag armor and bolter, there is none afaik.

SM Scouts are pretty close with a bolter and "scout armor".

 Dunwich wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:
In tournaments they've to be flexible with them, because, tell me what model I could use with a frag armor and bolter, there is none afaik.

SM Scouts are pretty close with a bolter and "scout armor".

Depends on how you want them to look. The problem with Scouts is they don't like very Inquisitional; they are clearly Marines. I always imagine the Inquisition as rag tag bands of militia of various skills.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Depends on how you want them to look. The problem with Scouts is they don't like very Inquisitional; they are clearly Marines. I always imagine the Inquisition as rag tag bands of militia of various skills.

This.

I just got 30 karskin to use them as henchmen, they look pretty cool on the table, so they will do their job. And plus, thinking in adding them caparace armour on my list (with the jokaero upgrade they become 3+ if they get it, for 4p. per caparace armour)

I even have 5 cadians with remmants of a sm box, with an axe, power fist, shield, and swords. The arms of the space marines can be painted in metal, giving them a "my arm was eaten by a tyranid, now I have a robotic one" look.

DakotaBlue wrote: The arms of the space marines can be painted in metal, giving them a "my arm was eaten by a tyranid, now I have a robotic one" look.

Funnily enough, some of my Flagellant Acolytes have this as it was the easiest way to give them a Storm Bolter (5th edition).

I just saw something in our codex, something that if I think what it is, maybe it could be used for anyone.

In the summary of the codex, in the elite section, inquisitorial henchmen warband, it says that for each inquisitor you have, you can add an unit of 3-12 henchmen, and this unit does not use a force organisation slot.

Yeah, so?

DakotaBlue wrote:
I just saw something in our codex, something that if I think what it is, maybe it could be used for anyone.

In the summary of the codex, in the elite section, inquisitorial henchmen warband, it says that for each inquisitor you have, you can add an unit of 3-12 henchmen, and this unit does not use a force organisation slot.

Not seeing your point. Coteaz makes them all Troops which makes this point moot, and without him that limits you to two squads that won't score, and even if they don't take up a slot, what 3 Elites are you going to take on top of these 2 units that are already not scoring?

Maybe if you're running a Coteaz army at/above the 2k mark and you've filled your 12 troops slots and want 3 more Henchmen units to go with your other 3 inquisitors.

That is possible. But once you've filled up your troop choices and HQ slots with henchmen and Inquisitors, you pretty much have a foot-guard army without all the abilities and support choices that would make playing such effective. Not the worst thing out there i suppose, but not the most competitive either.

180 Deathcultists, that is all.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Maybe if you're running a Coteaz army at/above the 2k mark and you've filled your 12 troops slots and want 3 more Henchmen units to go with your other 3 inquisitors.

No, Coteaz makes Henchmen Troops, he doesn't give you the option to make them Troops or not like Belial and such do.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Maybe if you're running a Coteaz army at/above the 2k mark and you've filled your 12 troops slots and want 3 more Henchmen units to go with your other 3 inquisitors.

No, Coteaz makes Henchmen Troops, he doesn't give you the option to make them Troops or not like Belial and such do.

Q. Taking Inquisitor Coteaz in your force turns
Henchman Warbands into troops choices. Does this
mean that they take up a force organisation slot and
can no longer be taken as an elites choice? (p33)
A. Yes to both questions.

DakotaBlue wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Maybe if you're running a Coteaz army at/above the 2k mark and you've filled your 12 troops slots and want 3 more Henchmen units to go with your other 3 inquisitors.

No, Coteaz makes Henchmen Troops, he doesn't give you the option to make them Troops or not like Belial and such do.

Q. Taking Inquisitor Coteaz in your force turns
Henchman Warbands into troops choices. Does this
mean that they take up a force organisation slot and
can no longer be taken as an elites choice? (p33)
A. Yes to both questions.

The fact that you quoted me and posted this without any comment makes it look like you meant to contest my opinion, however you post reinforces it completely. So thanks all the same

Played my new list again in a 2v2; went pretty well.

Really wish I could have more Paladins, and especially Coteaz; but the Strikes in Razors are pretty good at running down objectives.

Need to do some more 1v1s with it though.

Next time I think we are going to do a mini-tourney between the 4 of us; too bad there isn't an IG-plasmavetspam in our group I think that is probably the hardest army for GK to fight currently.

Going to try this next time:
Draigo
Coteaz

7 Paladins (2MCPsycannons(MC'd just in case), Psybolts, Apo, Banner)
1 Paladin (hammer)

6 Strikes (MCPsy on Justicar)
PsyRazor

Dreadknight (tele, incin)
Psyrifle Dread

1500