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 Grey Templar wrote:
I've got a tournament this Sunday too. I'm taking this list http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/473718.page

It's kind of a farewell tournament before I move away to college. We'll see if I can have a good showing.

And comment on my list.

One of the things I really like for the AEGIS is that ATSKNF works really well with it such that strike squads and the like are really good with the darn thing. (you get to move,shoot,assault as normal so no penalty for snap fire or count as moving psycannons, take that regrouping rules wmahahahaha) Purgation squads really benefit from this. 2+ cover like all the time! (too bad my heavy slots are almost all occupied :/)

I also take advantage of using a techmarine or attached GK character to make some henchmen benefit as well. It's just a fun tactic for me but really depends on your enemy to waste time shooting it however and smart generals tend to avoid that unit altogether.

(when considering allies, space wolves with plasma guns make some good units to hide here or vanilla marines too. I'm still waiting to see the new dark angel rules so I have no idea what else goes in here yet )

Well I'm back. I'm wrecked tired, and it looks like there may be a problem with some of the results, I'm waiting to hear back, but the long and short of it is I went 3-1, tabling CSM/IG in four turns, tabling Tyranids in five turns, and tabling Space Wolves in 6 turns, while getting tabled myself by the Green Tide in 4 turns (the table had a really long LOS blocking piece of terrain that basically cut the board in half so the Orks advanced unmolested for two turns). In the end I cam either 3rd or 4th, I'll know for sure tomorrow, and then I'll start working on reports.

My Draigo/Cron list carried me to the top 8. Told ya it would work well Jy2.

LValx wrote:
My Draigo/Cron list carried me to the top 8. Told ya it would work well Jy2.

Ah! So that was you!? Congratulations man!

LValx wrote:
My Draigo/Cron list carried me to the top 8. Told ya it would work well Jy2.

First of all, congrats on a job well done. It's a good list, but the difference I'm talking about is one that could potentially have taken you to the Final table against Tony.

Who knows, I may be wrong. You did well enough to make it to the Elite 8. That's quite an accomplishment already.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Well I'm back. I'm wrecked tired, and it looks like there may be a problem with some of the results, I'm waiting to hear back, but the long and short of it is I went 3-1, tabling CSM/IG in four turns, tabling Tyranids in five turns, and tabling Space Wolves in 6 turns, while getting tabled myself by the Green Tide in 4 turns (the table had a really long LOS blocking piece of terrain that basically cut the board in half so the Orks advanced unmolested for two turns). In the end I cam either 3rd or 4th, I'll know for sure tomorrow, and then I'll start working on reports.

LValx wrote:My Draigo/Cron list carried me to the top 8. Told ya it would work well Jy2.

Looking forward to hearing some more about your games

Results were resorted and finalised, and I came 4th. I delighted with this, especially as my train was late and I missed game 1, meaning while every other player had 5 games worth of points I only had 4. I will be starting to work on the reports today.

 jy2 wrote:

LValx wrote:
My Draigo/Cron list carried me to the top 8. Told ya it would work well Jy2.

First of all, congrats on a job well done. It's a good list, but the difference I'm talking about is one that could potentially have taken you to the Final table against Tony.

Who knows, I may be wrong. You did well enough to make it to the Elite 8. That's quite an accomplishment already.

I got matched up against the Tzeentch Demons which was rough. Screamers and Flamers are nuts.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Results were resorted and finalised, and I came 4th. I delighted with this, especially as my train was late and I missed game 1, meaning while every other player had 5 games worth of points I only had 4. I will be starting to work on the reports today.

Congrats! Looking forward to your reports.

LValx wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

LValx wrote:
My Draigo/Cron list carried me to the top 8. Told ya it would work well Jy2.

First of all, congrats on a job well done. It's a good list, but the difference I'm talking about is one that could potentially have taken you to the Final table against Tony.

Who knows, I may be wrong. You did well enough to make it to the Elite 8. That's quite an accomplishment already.

I got matched up against the Tzeentch Demons which was rough. Screamers and Flamers are nuts.

I also play daemons as well as the GK's and I've got to say that daemons have gotten much better with the WD additions. I'm really not surprised at Nick's performance (well, maybe a little considering on average, he should have had 2 games where his preferred wave didn't come in). I've been running a few games with my Tzeentch daemons (you will see 1 of those battle reports) and I must say that I am impressed.

Their weakness isn't Draigowing. Rather, it is against strikers. A whole lot of them...like my S5-stormbolter-spam GK horde. That's were daemons will really struggle. If Nick were to play against Hulksmash's foot-knights, that would have been a bad matchup for daemons indeed.

I think Daemons may be the second best codex. The combo of flamers and screamers is really, really tough for MEQ's to beat. I'm thinking 2 giant IG blobs and 40-50 SW's with Grimnar and some other goodies.

I think Hulksmash would have had a tough game too, its too easy to hide units like Flamers and Screamers from LoS.

It's too soon to claim that daemons are the 2nd best, but they are making a good case for being in the upper echelons of competitive play.


Grey Knight shooting will prevail and I will tell you why....Preferred Enemy.

Imagine 50-60 strikers with S5 stormbolters and psycannons, of which they re-roll 1's to hit and to wound. It's a huge, huge buff against daemons.

On top of that, you have psychic support that allows re-rolls to hit and possibly others that forces enemy to re-rol successful saves or allows you to Overwatch at full BS.

Grats LValx!

I played a tournament as well. I went 1-1-1, which I can't be too sad about considering I've played so few games with this list. I drew against a Tau player with a GK allied detachment first. This one was a bit of a heartbreaker because I had the upper hand the entire game. I had some really lucky shooting in turn one which meant he was on the back foot, with virtually no chance of winning. He got a draw which was really the best he could hope for. Second game I beat a guard list with four massive templates, two of them str10 ap1. This was the game I was most worried about, but I won it. Third game I got kited by horde orks, which left me with a mix of slight embarrassment over my own play and respect for my opponents ability to devise a scheme to win a game that's against him from the second we lined up. First turn his lootas shot my Chimera for first blood, from then on he managed to hide enough decimated squad behind terrain that I couldn't catch him. I basically had the choice of moving up slowly or throwing my interceptors/dreadknight forward unsupported, both of which are terrible choices. All in all, if I'd had more practice games, I'm fairly sure I could have gone 2 wins 1 draw. Anyway, I played this list:

HQ

Draigo

Coteaz

Troops

10x Paladins
4x Psycannons
2x Demon hammer
8x Halberds
Psybolt Ammo
Apothecary

5x Henchmen
5x Bolters
Chimera
Searchlights

Heavy Support

Deadnought
2x TL AC
Psybolts
Searchlights

Deadnought
2x TL AC
Psybolts
Searchlights

Nemesis Dreadknight
Personal Teleporter
Heavy Incinerator

Fast Attack

5x Interceptors
1x Incinerator
1x Demon Hammer

Stuff that worked really well:

* Paladin squad. Didn't lose Draigo at any point, closest I came was against the guard player. This squad makes me so happy; I just point at a unit every turn and it goes away.
* Coteaz is awesome. Against IG I had rerolling hits and 4+ invul on the entire squad, against horde orks I had overwatch at full BS. Perfect? You bet.
* 2 Dreads worked well. Didn't really feel the need to ad a third. Grand strategy also meant that I could make them scoring when needed, which worked like a charm.
* Not using the banner. I cut the banner from the list because I figured that I'd realistically spend very little time in CC and that ended up being completely right. I think I had a single round of CC through all three games.

Stuff that didn't work terribly well:

* Dreadknight. I couldn't get the synergy right. I'd either jump him in too early, which meant that he'd get shot to death in no-time (5+ invuln is fairly awful) or hold him back too much. I either need to take him out of the list, or possibly add another, so he has some support. The rest of the list moves so slowly he gets isolated too easily.
* Chimera Henchmen. The only game I lost was due to the Chimera. My opponent shot it, got first blood and basically kited me for 5 turns. Pretty clever play, but in general the Chimera didn't really end up doing much.
* Interceptors. The incinerator is AWESOME, but the squad still suffers from being too small. I dropped it, fired the flamer and then got killed, which I suspect is an issue that doesn't really exist with a 10 man blob. I need to either take this squad out, or add 5 more dudes.

Feedback?

I'm curious why you would make the Dreads scoring over the Knight and Interceptors?

Also, regarding the Knight leaving everything else behind, this is a perfect example of what I've been saying all along to people; Teleporters are not the no-brainer everyone says they are. They need to work with the list being built, like most choices. If I'm walking 5 Paladins and Draigo up the board, they don't need two Dreadknights distracting the enemy's shooting, but they could use those Dreadknights walking beside them to protect their flanks, and them a combined assault on the enemy that they surely cannot handle.

Piecemeal is not the Grey Knight way.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I'm curious why you would make the Dreads scoring over the Knight and Interceptors?

Also, regarding the Knight leaving everything else behind, this is a perfect example of what I've been saying all along to people; Teleporters are not the no-brainer everyone says they are. They need to work with the list being built, like most choices. If I'm walking 5 Paladins and Draigo up the board, they don't need two Dreadknights distracting the enemy's shooting, but they could use those Dreadknights walking beside them to protect their flanks, and them a combined assault on the enemy that they surely cannot handle.

Piecemeal is not the Grey Knight way.

Well, it depends on the mission. We had one round of heavy guns never tire, where I did indeed make the Knight and Interceptors scoring. Otherwise though, the Dreads did a great job of holding one or two home objectives. Everything else pushes up the field, so they're a fairly natural point holder (apart from the henchmen).

Good point about the Dreadknight. The pointcost of the teleporter is fairly massive too, so I might actually try this list without the teleporter.

 jy2 wrote:
It's too soon to claim that daemons are the 2nd best, but they are making a good case for being in the upper echelons of competitive play.


Grey Knight shooting will prevail and I will tell you why....Preferred Enemy.

Imagine 50-60 strikers with S5 stormbolters and psycannons, of which they re-roll 1's to hit and to wound. It's a huge, huge buff against daemons.

On top of that, you have psychic support that allows re-rolls to hit and possibly others that forces enemy to re-rol successful saves or allows you to Overwatch at full BS.

You are also assuming the entirety of your army has LoS.

I agree that GK will generally do well vs Daemons but in a NOVA format you can easily hide most of your threats from massed firepower and with units that are jump infantry/jetbike you can then pounce on the enemy. If they don't come to the middle you've won because you've pinned them, if they come to the middle they are taking a risk because Flamers really, really mess up expensive infantry.

I also know that the Daemons simply tabled most of their opponents. Their ceiling for damage is higher than most lists as most people cannot effectively kill Fateweaver and at the same time focus down 15+ Screamers/15+ Flamers. The new reserve rolls are also pretty good for Daemons as it means they can saturate the board quickly with their models.

Stoffer wrote:

* Chimera Henchmen. The only game I lost was due to the Chimera. My opponent shot it, got first blood and basically kited me for 5 turns. Pretty clever play, but in general the Chimera didn't really end up doing much.
* Interceptors. The incinerator is AWESOME, but the squad still suffers from being too small. I dropped it, fired the flamer and then got killed, which I suspect is an issue that doesn't really exist with a 10 man blob. I need to either take this squad out, or add 5 more dudes.

Feedback?

From what you have said about these two units, I think you yourself know what you must do. Drop the Henchmen and chimera and max out the Interceptors. A 10man Interceptor Squad is your best option for making a scoring unit with Grand Strategy.
edit: just realized you needed the henchman for a troops choice. Maybe drop the chimera and teleporter on the dreadknight if you are leaning towards that. Definitely find a way to max out the Interceptors though.

LValx wrote:I agree that GK will generally do well vs Daemons but in a NOVA format you can easily hide most of your threats from massed firepower and with units that are jump infantry/jetbike you can then pounce on the enemy.

This isn't a thread about NOVA, it's a thread about general Grey Knights, so about strategy and tactics in a general setting playing the game for what it is. Just because something is good/bad/better/worse in a given tournament's specific rules doesn't make it so in general.

I guess to get back on track, Daemons are more dangerous than before for GK. If you don't have large numbers good luck dealing with the MSU Tzeentch lists.

I don't know about not running a teleporter on the DK, it just allows you to place him in the exact spot you want most of the time to inflict the most damage with the incinerator and then beat down something.

Its very easy to put someone on the defensive with a DK. It is very expensive though, you're right. I haven't had a whole lot of luck using them sans teleporter though.

The biggest issue I found with the teleporter was the fact that you can't assault afterwards. With a lot of small arms fire and plasma, leaving him out in the open is fairly dangerous. If you go forward alone in turn 1, there is a pretty good chance he gets shot up horribly. I think I'll keep it on, but I'm not entirely convinced, especially at 75 points.

While that is true of the 30" move, I find getting a 12" regular move all the time to be better.

Using the 30" move either for a quick unexpected maneuver at the beginning of the game, or a contest move at the end of the game seems to be the best use for it.

Lately I tend to use my 30 inch move around turn 3-4. I have been using a strike squad to DS to a location and then jump interceptors and or Dread around it for a quick large presence.

Holding off on the jump until the enemy forces have split seems like a solid option as well. Around turn 3-4 sometimes there is a single unit in an area and you can jump to take care of them while placing yourself out of LOS to other units. Then the opponent either ignores the dreadknight or has to react to move to him. Either way its good.

It is useful on the last turn of the game. Zip to contest an objective, or grab an unoccupied one if you are scoring.

Well, I'm taking 2 DKs in my Draigowing list in a mini-tourney with friends tomorrow, and if it works well, to the tournament on Saturday.

No Apo on Wednesday... I can fit one, but its difficult. Also my string of failure with FNP rolls has been resounding, lol.

2 DKs at 1500 is probably too much for the point level, but I really like them, so I'm taking them

Looking forward to people complaining about my list composition again.

O'yeah, its too many for the points(1/3 of the army infact), but as you said "Who cares"

I think the Dreadknights are far too pricey. Armies with good shooting or good combat can take them down fairly easily.

LValx wrote:
I think the Dreadknights are far too pricey. Armies with good shooting or good combat can take them down fairly easily.

I'd say the only time my Dreadknights have been taken out 'easily' is when I've moved them into a horrible position and they've gotten lit up by tons of AT weaponry.

Most regular shooting bounces right off T6, and if something does get through you have a 2+ armor save most of the time. I've had entire squads rapid-fire against them and do nothing.

Other than a deathstar, other MC or a squad of TH/SS terminators, I don't know what would kill him easily inside of CC. And if you've gotten him into combat with them, that was probably your idea the whole time: tie up/kill a big bad.

They are pretty expensive, but I don't think they are terribly expensive for what you get, considering some other MCs can be just as expensive.

Ive faced them many times and rarely had much difficulty killing them. Their offensive power isn't that great either. After the initial charge they are only killing a few guys a turn making them susceptible to tarpitting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think moving forward the ideal way to run Draigo lists would be to add massive amounts of bodies to make the list less "elite"

LValx wrote:
Ive faced them many times and rarely had much difficulty killing them. Their offensive power isn't that great either. After the initial charge they are only killing a few guys a turn making them susceptible to tarpitting.

With Swords they kill 4-5 on the charge and 3-4 in subsequent turns. The only thing tar-pitting that are hordes, and hordes are dealt with before combat with the Heavy Incinerator. As for the implication that they are easy to take out, not sure where you get that idea. It takes 216 Bolter shots from Marines on average to kill a Dreadknight. That's not easy. Even for much AT weaponry that isn't AP it is tricky; it takes 43.2 shots from Marines firing Missile Launchers to kill him. You really need massed AP2 to take him down.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

LValx wrote:
Ive faced them many times and rarely had much difficulty killing them. Their offensive power isn't that great either. After the initial charge they are only killing a few guys a turn making them susceptible to tarpitting.

With Swords they kill 4-5 on the charge and 3-4 in subsequent turns. The only thing tar-pitting that are hordes, and hordes are dealt with before combat with the Heavy Incinerator. As for the implication that they are easy to take out, not sure where you get that idea. It takes 216 Bolter shots from Marines on average to kill a Dreadknight. That's not easy. Even for much AT weaponry that isn't AP it is tricky; it takes 43.2 shots from Marines firing Missile Launchers to kill him. You really need massed AP2 to take him down.

That's the issue though; rapid fire plasma doesn't seem very rare in this edition. In 2 of 3 games I lost my DK to a single turn of shooting because people go "lol good luck with the 5+ invul" and then just plasma/melta/lascannon him down.