Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just back from a 5 game weekend tournament; got there on time this time

Managed 5th place, a point short of 4th, and 3 short of podium. Got big wins over Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Daemons as well as a slightly smaller win over Necrons. This left me leading the pack 10pts ahead of all opposition for game 5, and then my dice decided to abandon me in favour of my opponent (who was also using my dice) and I lost big time to a Grey Knight/Necron alliance.

1st place went to that Grey Knight/Necron list, 2nd to the Daemons I beat (all Tzeentch BTW, 18 Flamers and 18 Screamers), 3rd to Necrons, and 4th to Imperial Guard.

I don't think I'll have time for reports on this one, but if anyone wants to ask me any questions about any of the match-ups they can ask away.

What was your list, I'm assuming given the paladin changes you changed it? Similarly what did your Grey Knight opponents field?

Always interesting to hear what choices people are finding competitive success with.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just back from a 5 game weekend tournament; got there on time this time

Managed 5th place, a point short of 4th, and 3 short of podium. Got big wins over Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Daemons as well as a slightly smaller win over Necrons. This left me leading the pack 10pts ahead of all opposition for game 5, and then my dice decided to abandon me in favour of my opponent (who was also using my dice) and I lost big time to a Grey Knight/Necron alliance.

1st place went to that Grey Knight/Necron list, 2nd to the Daemons I beat (all Tzeentch BTW, 18 Flamers and 18 Screamers), 3rd to Necrons, and 4th to Imperial Guard.

I don't think I'll have time for reports on this one, but if anyone wants to ask me any questions about any of the match-ups they can ask away.

Interested in what the Necron/gk list was like, was it just bad luck on your dice or was it a good list?

As above, were you using the same as before with paladins etc?

silly as it sounds, I was pioneering the gk + necron alliance eariler on page one but have yet to actually build the damn thing. Curious if he was using what I had in mind:

coteaz + henchmen for holding things
Doomscythe
night scythes
Wraiths + D Lord
a purifier squad for shooting and counter attack
maybe a storm raven too
and probably DK or AC dread based on prefernce

@Lanlaorn; my last list was 1999pts, this one was 1850pts, so as well as replacing Draigo and co' I had to cut points. Long story short, they got swapped for 10 Purifiers and a 10th Strike for my old 9 man squad, and then I put Psybolts everywhere.

@tuiman; good list, but prone to bad match-ups, however mine was good match-up for him as his list was very fast. Bad luck with silly in the game to the point that my opponent was even cursing the dice gods at how bad some of my rolls were. He is a better player than I am, and I was expecting a loss, just not such a big loss.

@sudojoe; not even close. He had Imotekh, 12 Immortals with a Veiltek, 2 Warrior squads in N-Scythes, 2 D-Scythes, Mordrak, 5 Terminators with Thawn, and a teleporting Dreadknight. The purpose of the Grey Knights was simply to harass stuff.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

@sudojoe; not even close. He had Imotekh, 12 Immortals with a Veiltek, 2 Warrior squads in N-Scythes, 2 D-Scythes, Mordrak, 5 Terminators with Thawn, and a teleporting Dreadknight. The purpose of the Grey Knights was simply to harass stuff.

WTF did he do with a mordrak that couldn't join any GK units?

Wait wait wait, doesn't he know that imotekh's lightning also shoot his GK's? madness!

 sudojoe wrote:
Wait wait wait, doesn't he know that imotekh's lightning also shoot his GK's? madness!

and mind of the machine can't be used out of a barge but they still try it, dirty necron players, as if their book was not strong enough already

@Coyote; he used Mordrak for Grand Strategy (cheapest method of getting it), Psychic Communion (Deep Striking Termies and DK), and Deep Striking out of LOS ready to charge things like Long Fangs who could do nothing about it.

@sudojoe; the Grey Knights more often than not Deep Struck, so by the time they hit the lightning was gone, and none of the units were particularly vulnerable to it anyway, especially given it only has a 1/6 chance to go off.

Mordrak's 15 points more expensive than a bare-bones GM though, and the GM can join other units.

tuiman wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
Wait wait wait, doesn't he know that imotekh's lightning also shoot his GK's? madness!

and mind of the machine can't be used out of a barge but they still try it, dirty necron players, as if their book was not strong enough already

Mind of the machine can be used out of a barge. The faq in the main rule book that said it couldn't be used in 5th, was removed in the 6th ed faq update.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
@Coyote; he used Mordrak for Grand Strategy (cheapest method of getting it), Psychic Communion (Deep Striking Termies and DK), and Deep Striking out of LOS ready to charge things like Long Fangs who could do nothing about it.

@sudojoe; the Grey Knights more often than not Deep Struck, so by the time they hit the lightning was gone, and none of the units were particularly vulnerable to it anyway, especially given it only has a 1/6 chance to go off.

I'm kind of baffled at what he'd use for the grand strat with so few GK units. Scout the DK up I suppose or outflank the terminators? reroll 1's for Thawn? Also, modrak while is pretty nice for CC, is still just one guy and can be ID'ed as well as not having stealth by himself, and can be tarpitted pretty badly by hordes. He is 15 points more but does have that no scatter deep strike going for him as well as an extra wound and attack with a hammer. Also just a 4++ iron halo, I'd almost be scare to throw him against actual CC units but I guess that's where positioning comes in.

I have guys with incubi, TH/SS terminators in LR's that would not hesitate to kill him then move on to re-engage other targets by turn 3 but then I guess they are just distraction units. Hrm.. I'm really gonna have to go try a bare bones modrak a few times. I almost always spend way too many points getting ghost knights. Also I've noticed that when I do DS out of LOS, I tend to not be able to really engage well with how bad assaulting through terrain has gotten in 6th. I've had guys just keep running from me and kite into one of their dedicated CC units and just shoot snap shots.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
@Lanlaorn; my last list was 1999pts, this one was 1850pts, so as well as replacing Draigo and co' I had to cut points. Long story short, they got swapped for 10 Purifiers and a 10th Strike for my old 9 man squad, and then I put Psybolts everywhere.

@tuiman; good list, but prone to bad match-ups, however mine was good match-up for him as his list was very fast. Bad luck with silly in the game to the point that my opponent was even cursing the dice gods at how bad some of my rolls were. He is a better player than I am, and I was expecting a loss, just not such a big loss.

@sudojoe; not even close. He had Imotekh, 12 Immortals with a Veiltek, 2 Warrior squads in N-Scythes, 2 D-Scythes, Mordrak, 5 Terminators with Thawn, and a teleporting Dreadknight. The purpose of the Grey Knights was simply to harass stuff.

Congrats Godless,

That necron unit sounds wrong. Immortals max out at 10.

I hope he wasn't deepstriking the termies with Mordrak.

Other than that, I think GK's + Crons go well together. While crons don't really need the knights, any army can benefit from allied necron flyers, especially the slower grey knights.


-----------------------------------------------------


BTW, here's a shameless plug-in to my Apoc battle report.

One of the GK players came late into the game, played just 1 turn and then had to leave. Lol. He brought Draigo, 5-pallies, Stormraven, GKLR, dread and some strikers. They killed 1 flyrant, a carnifex, contributed to the demise of another flyrant and then....POOF! They were gone like the wind before the bugs even had a chance to retaliate.

Report here for any who's interested.

jy2 wrote:Congrats Godless,

That necron unit sounds wrong. Immortals max out at 10.

I hope he wasn't deepstriking the termies with Mordrak.

Other than that, I think GK's + Crons go well together. While crons don't really need the knights, any army can benefit from allied necron flyers, especially the slower grey knights.

Seems you are right. That being said, those Immortals didn't take much part in the game, killing only a few Purifiers. In fact the Grey Knights killed nothing either, it was the 4 Scythes over 6 turns that destroyed every part of my army, though it took right to the last shot of the last turn to do it.

Taking that into account, it was lousy luck that spelled my doom really, as I was hitting the Scythes plenty but was fluffing all my penetration rolls, and if those Scythes died when they should have, that was more KP for me and a lot more of my models still alive.

Conversely I think Living Metal is stupid.

After taking my hiatus I am ready to start back playing again! 6th edition has rolled around and I am building a grey knight list but I am worried that I dont have enough anti-air weaponry. I only have 4 psycannons and 1 dreadnaught in 2k? Besides the doomscythe I dont see their damage output being to much of a concern, or am I missing something?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Conversely I think Living Metal is stupid.

Fortitude!

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Taking that into account, it was lousy luck that spelled my doom really, as I was hitting the Scythes plenty but was fluffing all my penetration rolls, and if those Scythes died when they should have, that was more KP for me and a lot more of my models still alive.

Yeah, that seems to happen to me also in my games against the crons. With psyflemans and Prescience, I can hit them. However, I never seem to roll well on the penetration rolls against those flyers. That just goes to show that you can never have enough shooting.

 CKO wrote:
After taking my hiatus I am ready to start back playing again! 6th edition has rolled around and I am building a grey knight list but I am worried that I dont have enough anti-air weaponry. I only have 4 psycannons and 1 dreadnaught in 2k? Besides the doomscythe I dont see their damage output being to much of a concern, or am I missing something?

Don't under-estimate the tl-tesla destructors. When used in bulk (i.e. annihilation barge and the scythes), they are quite devastating. They'll wipe out most tanks, AV12 and less, in just 1 or 2 volleys usually and can put a lot of hurt into infantry when they focus-fire. 2+ models help somewhat, but necrons will just deal with them just like the grey knights....through volume-of-fire (and with the doom scythes).

Twice over the weekend in different games I had a Storm Raven taken out in one try by a Night Scythe; never underestimate the Tesla.

 CKO wrote:
After taking my hiatus I am ready to start back playing again! 6th edition has rolled around and I am building a grey knight list but I am worried that I dont have enough anti-air weaponry. I only have 4 psycannons and 1 dreadnaught in 2k? Besides the doomscythe I dont see their damage output being to much of a concern, or am I missing something?

You really should have WAY more psycannons.

At least 8 psycannons and a few TL-assault cannons with psybolts(Razorbacks, Stormravens, etc...)


Whats your exact list?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Twice over the weekend in different games I had a Storm Raven taken out in one try by a Night Scythe; never underestimate the Tesla.

It's one of the reasons why I've been hating the necron airforce for a while now. However, I do plan to join it <_<...... Even with flak missles, I don't think we'll see an end to necron fliers honestly. They are too cheap for the guns and field advantage they bring as well the Alpha strike ability.

I really need to get off my butt to go build the necron + GK list but I'm building up Tau with a hint of eldar and Sisters +GK for purely fluff reasons. Maybe after I get some more money....night jobs are tough to keep doing

I know that the tl-telsa destructor are good, but its not deadly unless they have multiples of them. They have to manuvere those things around which is alot easier said than done, not all of them are going to come in at one time, and a weapon destroyed result is almost as good as a destroyed result. I believe I can take advantage of those things to minimize the power of flyers.

 Grey Templar wrote:

You really should have WAY more psycannons.

At least 8 psycannons and a few TL-assault cannons with psybolts(Razorbacks, Stormravens, etc...)

Whats your exact list?

Hq
Xenos Inquisitor Power Armour, Force Sword, Bolt pistol, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke Grenades, 2x Servo Skulls, Psyker Upgrade

Xenos Inquisitor Power Armour, Force Sword, Bolt pistol, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke Grenades, 1x Servo Skulls, Psyker Upgrade

Troops
10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

Fast Attack
10x Grey Knight Interceptor Squad 2xIncinerators, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

Heavy Support
Dreadnaught 2xTL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition

Nemesis DreadKnight Personal Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator

Ally (Space Marines)
Hq
Librarian Force Axe, Bolt Pistol

Troops
5x Tactical Squad Razorback (TL Heavy Bolter)

Elite
5xAssault Terminator Squad (Th & SS)

The Inquisitors buff up the strike squads with their grenades in cc and boast shooting with prescience psychic power. The Justicator has a warding stave so it can issue challenges with a 2+ invulnerable sv, the grenades combine with the challenge will give the unit the advantage in cc against most units.The Interceptor squad is perfect for long fang units, fortifications, and blob squads. Their shunt move will allow them to take advantage of any mistake that my opponent may make.

The dreadnaught needs no explanation, unlike the Dreadknight. It is a mismatch problem in my opinion. In everygame I believe that the Dreadknight can cause massive damage if used correctly. All hordes dislike his heavy incinerator and most units cannot get through the 2+ armour save so if you can put him in the right positions (shunt move) it can dominate a game.

The allies role is to contest or claim opponents objectives. The versatility of null zone is great and the terminators are even better in this edition because of the changes to power weapons and 2d6 charge range.

Few questions: Can the Nemesis Dreadknight take psychic powers from the rulebook? (Cant find it in the faq)
Can I switch up my psychic powers each game? Can my lib use the codex powers in game 1 of the tournament, but in game 2 use the rulebook powers?

Dreadknight cannot take rulebook powers (only Inquisitors and Librarians).

The necron flyers are really annoying. Thank god they are not AV12. Making the deathrays jink is sometimes the only saving grace. Ive yet to fight more than a doomscythe at a time but I have faced a 4x stormraven BA army in a 2v2. That was kinda fun... not really. I think I fired snap shots the entire game. Literally...

That list suffers from overspending; you have too much points put into upgrades you don't need. The Strike squads need a Hammer, 2 Psycannons, and Psybolts nothing else. The Inquisitors don't need the grenades because you have nothing worth using them with and also your list is better off shooting (as are Grey Knights in general).

Same deal with the Interceptors, however you are better off dropping them for a Storm Raven for AA and an additional Dreadnought so your one isn't isolated (you should have the points if you drop the upgrades above).

As for the allies, not sure what the point of them is, but Scouts with Camo Cloaks with be cheaper, more numerous, and better at holding down objectives than the Tac Squad you have now.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
That list suffers from overspending; you have too much points put into upgrades you don't need.

This may be so I will try to pay attention to that during my practice games to see if they play a role in games that I play.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The Strike squads need a Hammer, 2 Psycannons, and Psybolts nothing else. The Inquisitors don't need the grenades because you have nothing worth using them with and also your list is better off shooting (as are Grey Knights in general).

My intention was to make the strike squads good in cc by adding the upgrades. Rad grenades (t 3), hammerhead (wounds on 2+) , combine with prescience (re - rolls to hit) should make them unexpectly good in cc. Also if I decided to use combat squads I can have a shooty 5 man squad with 2 psycannons and a cc unit with 2 halberds, 2 hammers, a stave and the inquisitor.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Same deal with the Interceptors, however you are better off dropping them for a Storm Raven for AA and an additional Dreadnought so your one isn't isolated (you should have the points if you drop the upgrades above).

This suggestion will help with anti-air but I am not sure if I want to break up the synergy.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
As for the allies, not sure what the point of them is, but Scouts with Camo Cloaks with be cheaper, more numerous, and better at holding down objectives than the Tac Squad you have now.

I like assault terminators and I like re-rolling successful invulnerable saves both are still good in my opinion and worth allying for. Thanks for your suggestions I will definetly pay attention to my games to see if the areas you mention are weaknesses in my list.

After messing with various strike squad loadouts I'm just not impressed enough with them even with buffs. They really have a hard time fighting their points equivilent CC units unless it's like a big tac squad of marines or something which really isn't a CC unit anyway. The low number attacks is what really hurts these guys and I'm not bothering for falchions.

Lack of swarm fighting, lack of attacks, and mostly just AP3 with one guy that's usually gonna be stuck in a challenge makes it a tough sell for me.

Strike squads should not be in combat. Period.

1 attack will not do much, as godlessm says, just psybolt and psycannon, hammer so they can take vehicles if they have to. You use them for the mass strength 5 stormbolter shooting, with the punch of psycannon.

If you want combat, take purifiers, cheaper halberds, 2 attacks and cleansing flame make them much better for cc.

Spot on. If you want combat (and you don't need it in 6th) you take a combat unit. Strikes are not that.

Strike Squads really are no better in melee then Tactical marines. Force Weapons don't make you good in melee, especially since all the upgrades are insanely expensive.

A Strike Marine with a Halberd is 1 point less then a Purifier with a Halberd, and the Purifier is a million times better in melee. The Purifier unit can also take more special weapons.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Strike Squads really are no better in melee then Tactical marines. Force Weapons don't make you good in melee, especially since all the upgrades are insanely expensive.

A Strike Marine with a Halberd is 1 point less then a Purifier with a Halberd, and the Purifier is a million times better in melee. The Purifier unit can also take more special weapons.

5 tac marines=4 strikes in cost

Math hammer v meq

Tac marines/strikes get the charge.

5 tac marines=10 attacks=5 hits=2.5 wwounds=0.833 wounds
4 strikes=8 attacks=4 hits=2.666 wounds with hammer hand=2.666 dead meq

Strikes are far superior to tac marines in cc when fighting meq which is the most common type of opponent. Add to that their storm bolters give them the option to charge after shooting.

Being better than Tac Marines in combat still doesn't make them a good combat unit.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Being better than Tac Marines in combat still doesn't make them a good combat unit.

Correct, but it also means they are not bad in cc, they have assault weapons, and gk units that are good in cc can back them up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It takes 30 points of strikes to drop a meq while charging with hammerhand. That's also better than grey hunters at 60 points or fc ba assault marines at 54 points. While strikes are not a cc unit the fact is they are 266% more lethal in cc when they charge, and that can be used a gk players advantage or disadvantage.

Correct, but it also means they are not bad in cc, they have assault weapons, and gk units that are good in cc can back them up.

Gk can play assault based lists but don't need to. Strike squads work in assault because they have whittled down the squad they are assaulting with stormbolters and psycannons. I've held up a strike squad with a nurgle daemon prince for three turns and won in the end. Shoot my DP and ground it, then shoot it some more and then I'm not winning the battle. Thre unit I fear the most for my daemons are DKs. Of coourse i hate their vehicle spam as well where they leave me no room to DS safely.

Random thought I had today.
On a Henchman carrying a plasma gun, would it be worth upgrading his armor to carpace or power armor to deal with overheating?
Are power armored henchmen ever worth it?

I mainly ask because modelling henchmen with power armor would be, in most cases, easier than converting guardsmen's weapons. Sisters of Battle and Space Marines both come with bolters, which is the ideal weapon for henchmen.

No. Upgrading the armour of Henchmen is never a good idea. It takes away from the point of the unit; cheap throwaways.

 Dunwich wrote:
Random thought I had today.
On a Henchman carrying a plasma gun, would it be worth upgrading his armor to carpace or power armor to deal with overheating?
Are power armored henchmen ever worth it?

I mainly ask because modelling henchmen with power armor would be, in most cases, easier than converting guardsmen's weapons. Sisters of Battle and Space Marines both come with bolters, which is the ideal weapon for henchmen.

No, use divination to TL the plasma then they only overheat 1/36 shots.

 felixcat wrote:

Gk can play assault based lists but don't need to. Strike squads work in assault because they have whittled down the squad they are assaulting with stormbolters and psycannons.

Which is the plan I expect most units I assault to have taken losses due to stormbolters and psycannons. Those grenades with strike squads will almost gurantee victory once you reach combat with an enemy that has been peppered to death.

 felixcat wrote:

I've held up a strike squad with a nurgle daemon prince for three turns and won in the end. Shoot my DP and ground it, then shoot it some more and then I'm not winning the battle. Thre unit I fear the most for my daemons are DKs. Of coourse i hate their vehicle spam as well where they leave me no room to DS safely.

Shooting is a good way of killing things but we cant underestimate our force weapons.

Has anyone tried to run MSU's of footslogging strike squads? I'm trying to make a pure GK (no inquisitors/henchman) list where my goal is to keep my troops as cheap as possible so I can bring in other goodies (DKs, SRs, etc.)

I don't think footslogging MSU works out very well. Its not enough bodies to gives us durable vehicles.

Right now I'm on the fence with vehicles. I've been considering running foot slogging Strikes, but I feel Strikes in Rhinos can work well too.

 Red Comet wrote:
I don't think footslogging MSU works out very well. Its not enough bodies to gives us durable vehicles.

Right now I'm on the fence with vehicles. I've been considering running foot slogging Strikes, but I feel Strikes in Rhinos can work well too.

I'd keep them in cover as often as possible. I know in 6th that can only go so far, but it has worked our for me before with draigowing...

The biggest problem I have with rhinos now, besides the no assaulting, is that unless you get the first, its all but guaranteed that some of them will get popped, at which case you wasted 40+pts and might as well have just foot slogged anyway. At least razorbacks mitigate this by having weapons that somewhat make up for this, but still...

As to the rhino's question, I've found out quite early in my 6th experience to just think of rhinos as a 40 point bolter marine with some extra armor and or 50 points for a HB varient. I really haven't been transporting troops with them much anymore and use it as mobile cover with men running outside of them. With tracks instead of hovering bases, my rhinos can completely block LOS to squads behind them. I use them to either shoot or provide flat out LOS blocking during the shooting phases.

This essentially lets me keep my assault potential as things close but it does make me more vulnerable to barrage weapons which luckily aren't currently in large enough numbers in most take all comer lists.

While shooting is very strong and assault quite a bit weaker, I really still have a healthy respect for assaulting as it still can do alot of damage or receive a lot of damage very fast.

As an aside, I've been fiddling with my techmarine some more lately. It's an old model (and I have 3 of them)



the weapon he's holding looks very much like a power axe so I've been using him as an Ap2, str 6 weapon/ sometimes str 7 with hammer hand. I just keep debating on if I possibly want to buff him up a bit with either a hammer/halberd or maybe falchions. He's almost always in with a squad of purifiers or terminators so I've usually had challenges handled by the sarge or any random paladin but I'm kind of wondering if I might be better served with some other sort of weapon.

Typically I run him as a grenade caddy to allow hammerhand stacking to kill T4 FnP's. (rad makes T3, hammerhand from squad gives 5, hammerhand from techmarine gives str 6, ID and 2+ to wound)

Brief battle report synopsis:

I ran 2000pts of GK's -

Coteaz
Inquisitor - Psyker, Psykatroke grenades
10x Purifiers - 4x Psycannons, 5x Halberds, Psybolt Ammo
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Hammer
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Hammer
11x Henchmen - 3x Servitors w/Plasma Cannons, Boltguns on henchmen
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator


My opponent ran 2200pts of daemons (I gave him an extra 200pts as a handicap) -

Fateweaver
Bloodthirster (Warlord) - not sure what upgrades
5x Flamers
5x Flamers
5x Flamers
20x Pink Horrors - Bolt
10x Pink Horrors - Bolt
5x Pink Horrors - Bolt
5x Pink Horrors - Bolt
9x Screamers
Daemon Prince - 3+
Daemon Prince - 3+
Daemon Prince - 3+


GK1 - My grey knights went first. I leave 1 unit of strikers in reserves. All 3 squads cast Warp Quake. Coteaz casts Prescience.

Daemons 1 - He gets his preferred wave. Everyone deepstrikes back but Fateweaver scatters forwards into I've Been Expecting You range. Coteaz and his prescient purifiers shoot down the swooping Big Bird.

GK2 - Coteaz casts Misfortune on the enemy Warlord - the bloodthirster. Shooting takes out the daemon Warlord bloodthirster, 1 DP and almost the 20-man horror unit.


I call the game here as I didn't want to discourage my opponent too much. The domination was obvious. Striker-S5-stormbolter-spam is the rock to daemon scissors.

Striker-S5-stormbolter-spam is the rock to daemon scissors.

Well your opponent I'm sure was anice guy but he ran five FMCs. That is a no go against a typical GK list. I also see a lot of players relying on flamers and less screamers. You need screamers against GK (unfortunately my list has none but I have a CSM allied detachment to really help me out). Daemons are still struggling at times with the same weaknesses of 6ed. If we go second (usually a good idea against many lists to avoid a first turn torrenting) we lose against GK. It allows them to get warp quake up. Daemons can get some very bad scatters. I can't tell you how often this has happened to me. GK with enough bodies can cut of the areas we can DS safely - a major issue. Too many tables just don't have enough terrain. If you are playing daemons this is bad. So with all this to overcome GK is really an almost impossible nut to crack if you are going flying circus with five FMCs. I've also mentioned this before ... The three units daemons do not want to see
Coteaz
Strike Psycannon spam
Dreadknights
I have no good answers unless I radically change my list to be GK specific and even then it is an uphill battle. I have MoN CSM bikes, MoN oblits, sorcerer which help level the table. I use tough models - GuO which is unpopular and sometimes bloodcrushers ( which have been nerfed but are tough). My last game against GK was a loss facing a rhino/GK/Strike list that just controlled the center of the board and left me but one viable spot to drop in - lol. Even getting the rhinos helps little. They just provide cover for the GKs anyway. DKs kill just about anything in my list.

1 Fateweaver 333
1 Great Unclean One; Breath of Chaos; Cloud of Flies 195 (warlord - strategic)
1 Chaos Sorcerer; Lvl3; Mark of Nurgle; Burning Brand of Skalathrax; Gift of Mutation; Bike 180 (nurgle/telepathy)
7 Flamers of Tzeentch 161
3x 5 Horrors of Tzeentch; 3 Bolt of Tzeentch; Changeling 290
17 Chaos Cultists; Mark of Nurgle 112
5 Chaos Bikers; Mark of Nurgle; 2 Meltaguns; Power Sword; Veterans of the Long War 180
2x 1 Daemon Prince; Daemonic Flight; Mark of Nurgle; Iron Hide; Cloud of Flies; Noxious Touch; Daemonic Gaze 470
1 Obliterator; Mark of Nurgle 76
==1997==

I know - a strange list but it allows me to set down 2/3 of my army turn one and deploy at least 1/4 of my army where needed without risk. Still not a great counter to GK. It has its moments. It can hurt some lists. But GK - well. I'm out shot badly by GK and MoN only helps so much.

CKO wrote:Shooting is a good way of killing things but we cant underestimate our force weapons.

Nobody is underestimating our Force Weapons, but again, having Force Weapons doesn't make you a combat unit. This is especially true in 6th, which is a shooting game. People make the common misconception that if you can't compete in assault you can't compete, but that is very far from the truth.

So guys I've been out of the country for a couple of weeks, what have I missed besides the obvious release of CSM?

Got a tournament tomorrow, no idea what I'm going to take besides some terminators and DKs, heh.

Actually this is what I am going to take, I have no idea how it will work:

Draigo
5 Paladins 2MCPsycannons

Coteaz
10 Purifiers, 4 Psycannons, Psybolts, 2 Halberds, 1 DH

5 Strikers, 1 Psycannon, 1 DH

Dreadknight with Sword & Incinerator
Dreadknight with Sword & Incinerator

1499pts

Not enough scoring units, but I guess I'll see how it goes. Been in Costa Rica getting married for 2 weeks, so not much playtime beforehand. Also will be picking up the Chaos book

Will use Psychic Communion to DS both of the DKs most likely, or at least 1 of them depending on whats in the field. Coteaz will stay with the Purifiers to give them divination powers for all of those s5 and s7 shots. 40 wounds total I think, should be decently resilient if nothing else. Would have liked to bring a psyrifle dread, but ran out of room. They really need to go up from 1500pts at the local tournament.

With Grand Strategy potentially every unit in your list could be scoring. At minimum, all your infantry are scoring. It's not so much lack of scoring as it is lack of models.

I like the list though, it is incredibly scary and you seemed to have squeezed in as much as possible.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
So guys I've been out of the country for a couple of weeks, what have I missed besides the obvious release of CSM?

Got a tournament tomorrow, no idea what I'm going to take besides some terminators and DKs, heh.

Actually this is what I am going to take, I have no idea how it will work:

Draigo
5 Paladins 2MCPsycannons

Coteaz
10 Purifiers, 4 Psycannons, Psybolts, 2 Halberds, 1 DH

5 Strikers, 1 Psycannon, 1 DH

Dreadknight with Sword & Incinerator
Dreadknight with Sword & Incinerator

1499pts

Not enough scoring units, but I guess I'll see how it goes. Been in Costa Rica getting married for 2 weeks, so not much playtime beforehand. Also will be picking up the Chaos book

Will use Psychic Communion to DS both of the DKs most likely, or at least 1 of them depending on whats in the field. Coteaz will stay with the Purifiers to give them divination powers for all of those s5 and s7 shots. 40 wounds total I think, should be decently resilient if nothing else. Would have liked to bring a psyrifle dread, but ran out of room. They really need to go up from 1500pts at the local tournament.

I think it's got some potential but I worry about your list vs heavy armor lists and fliers for the most part. Also the DK's have teleporters? It's gonna be a pretty slow list unless you got some good deep strike going on in there. Congratz on getting married btw. I barely remember my weddings, it was all such a blur of activity.

 sudojoe wrote:


I think it's got some potential but I worry about your list vs heavy armor lists and fliers for the most part. Also the DK's have teleporters? It's gonna be a pretty slow list unless you got some good deep strike going on in there. Congratz on getting married btw. I barely remember my weddings, it was all such a blur of activity.

I'd prefer they have teleporters, but they are really expensive. And yes, it will be slow, probably slower than I prefer; hopefully some deep-strikes will go well with the DKs.

Local meta doesn't have too much heavy armor or chimera spam etc, so I should be alright in that department.

Thanks for the congrats as well

He mentioned flyers as well. Purifiers are the only thing there with much of a chance.

Congrads also.

Won 1st place general, didn't have much of a problem with anything other than some cocked dice shenanigans from one of my opponents. Still ended up winning that game, but Eldrad didn't die.

Also had some Draigo v Draigo action with his allied Draigo(+terms), somehow mine won with no wounds on him, while the other Draigo had 4. Karma.

Will try to post a more detailed report of my games soon.

1st game was vs Necrons

2nd game was vs SM + Guard allies

3rd game was vs Eldar + GK allies

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
Won 1st place general, didn't have much of a problem with anything other than some cocked dice shenanigans from one of my opponents. Still ended up winning that game, but Eldrad didn't die.

Also had some Draigo v Draigo action with his allied Draigo(+terms), somehow mine won with no wounds on him, while the other Draigo had 4. Karma.

Will try to post a more detailed report of my games soon.

1st game was vs Necrons

2nd game was vs SM + Guard allies

3rd game was vs Eldar + GK allies

Nice going there, so paladins can still work then?

How did you deal with flyers?

Paladins are fine, you just have to play smarter with them; the only time I lost any was when I got into CC with the other Draigo group, and he only had terminators; turns out a Daemon hammer can still mess up Paladins pretty bad.

I actually didn't run into any fliers that time, although I would have dedicated Coteaz and his group of purifiers shooting at them with Prescience.

I'll be honest and say I am surprised, but fair play, and well done.

Seems your meta is a lot different to what I expecting. Looking forward to reading those reports to get a better insight.

I was going to add a necron flyer wing to my grey knights, 2 units of 5 immortals in night scythes, a doom scythe.

However, after lurking around the local forums for upcoming tournaments. With forgeworld allowed here in NZ, every man and his dog is buying up on sabre platforms, hyperoius platforms etc.

This seems to be the way my meta is changing to, anti flyers, so maybe a straight foot list would be better, and just take on enemy flyers with mass shooting.

Thoughts?

2 strikes 1 interceptors and coteaz in an ambush squad is pretty much the auto win if gk goes 1st.

Purgatorial squads with quad incinerators would be even uglier on a coteaz mishap. Every deamon in the unit would take 4 str 6 hits from the incinerators.

tuiman wrote:
I was going to add a necron flyer wing to my grey knights, 2 units of 5 immortals in night scythes, a doom scythe.

However, after lurking around the local forums for upcoming tournaments. With forgeworld allowed here in NZ, every man and his dog is buying up on sabre platforms, hyperoius platforms etc.

This seems to be the way my meta is changing to, anti flyers, so maybe a straight foot list would be better, and just take on enemy flyers with mass shooting.

Thoughts?

I don't really know the rules for the sabres so I can't really comment. What's the rules for those things

They have interceptor, skyfire, twin-linked lascannons or autocannons, taken in squads instead of heavy weapon teams. T7 because of artillery rules etc.

Now, I'm not saying they will break flyers. However, if more people are using them, would it be wiser to not take any flyers at all?

I think it'd still be useful as you can neuter those things via some sort of assault or deep striking unit or just swarm them with numbers. They appear to be competing with IG heavy slots I'm guessing so that's solid gold territory that you are talking about for points to fight over. Even if all camped in the corner, they just gave up board control and you really have to move around in 6th to win the game as most things are based on objectives control.

May want to balance out some of those flier only lists though like the necrons are running to include some fast attcking or deep striking units such as wraiths and veil-tek's (which most smarter meta players are already doing) and as for GK, we'll really rarely get above 1-2 fliers without allies so it doesn't change much but maybe target prirority. Modrak deep striking turn one could be very useful for taking out these manned arty platforms.

Nope they sabres are troops choices & scoring units. As part of an infantry platoon IG can purchase 5 squads of 3 sabres as part of a single troops choice, and at 50 each for tl ac or 60 each for tl lc the only issue is going to be price in points & $. They can also receive orders to reroll successful cover saves, or unpin if they went to ground for a 2+ cover save behind an aegis. Which reminds me besides being t7 the guns have 2 wounds and the guardsmen have 2 wounds so if 4 unsaved wounds are dished out to a squad it's only going to remove 1 sabre and 2 guardsmen. 6 ac sabres and 6 lc sabres at 660 points sounds good to me. That's 48 wounds at t7 that fits nice behind an aegis.

Sabres only have 2 weaknesses.

Weakness #1 They are immobile and are removed if they break, but that can be largely negated by taking a lord commissar as a hq, give him a camo cloak, join a sabre squad and they are t7 cover 3++ with a 12" ld10 bubble for the rest of the sabres.

Weakness #2 they are forge world, and they don't do a very good job at convincing people that forge world should be allowed in tournaments.

tuiman wrote:
They have interceptor, skyfire, twin-linked lascannons or autocannons, taken in squads instead of heavy weapon teams. T7 because of artillery rules etc.

Now, I'm not saying they will break flyers. However, if more people are using them, would it be wiser to not take any flyers at all?

So? Many armies pack meltas and missiles....do you see mech going away because of that? Well, kinda....but that is more because of 6E vehicle rules rather than those anti-tank weaponry. Really, while flyers are good, flyer armies are few with the exception of the crons. To bring dedicated AA weaponry is to make your army weaker against the majority of the armies out there. Also, the damage output of those types of guns aren't very impressive either. A quad-gun only averages about 1.5 Hull Points of damage. The Icarus lascannon even less than that. Seriously, you don't have too much to fear unless your opponent is spamming those weaponry....and if they do, then they probably won't make it pass Round 1 with a win in tournament play unless they actually go up against a flyer army....and even then, it is no guarantee that such tailored armies will get the win.

If you want to add scythe-cron allies, go for it. The benefits they bring far outweighs the very few exploitable weaknesses that they have.

 jy2 wrote:

tuiman wrote:
They have interceptor, skyfire, twin-linked lascannons or autocannons, taken in squads instead of heavy weapon teams. T7 because of artillery rules etc.

Now, I'm not saying they will break flyers. However, if more people are using them, would it be wiser to not take any flyers at all?

So? Many armies pack meltas and missiles....do you see mech going away because of that? Well, kinda....but that is more because of 6E vehicle rules rather than those anti-tank weaponry. Really, while flyers are good, flyer armies are few with the exception of the crons. To bring dedicated AA weaponry is to make your army weaker against the majority of the armies out there. Also, the damage output of those types of guns aren't very impressive either. A quad-gun only averages about 1.5 Hull Points of damage. The Icarus lascannon even less than that. Seriously, you don't have too much to fear unless your opponent is spamming those weaponry....and if they do, then they probably won't make it pass Round 1 with a win in tournament play unless they actually go up against a flyer army....and even then, it is no guarantee that such tailored armies will get the win.

If you want to add scythe-cron allies, go for it. The benefits they bring far outweighs the very few exploitable weaknesses that they have.

Hmm, sweet as.

Was just something I was noticing is how many people are going anti-flyer, but as you say, only crons are mass flyer based so against all others its less effective. Another case of rock scissors paper Im feeling. Willl try out my Gk + Necron Scythe wing and see how it goes then

 CKO wrote:

Hq
Xenos Inquisitor Power Armour, Force Sword, Bolt pistol, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke Grenades, 2x Servo Skulls, Psyker Upgrade

Xenos Inquisitor Power Armour, Force Sword, Bolt pistol, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke Grenades, 1x Servo Skulls, Psyker Upgrade

Troops
10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

Fast Attack
10x Grey Knight Interceptor Squad 2xIncinerators, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

Heavy Support
Dreadnaught 2xTL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition

Nemesis DreadKnight Personal Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator

Ally (Space Marines)
Hq
Librarian Force Axe, Bolt Pistol

Troops
5x Tactical Squad Razorback (TL Heavy Bolter)

Elite
5xAssault Terminator Squad (Th & SS)

I am happy with this list I came in 1st place with it at a small local tournament I participate in. Everything did as expected except the allies, they were useless as some of you stated, there is room for improvement so next time I am going to use this list.

HQ
Librarian - Force Sword, Storm Bolter, Sanctuary, Shourding, Warp Rift

Mordrak

Troops
10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

Fast Attack
10x Grey Knight Interceptor Squad 2xIncinerators, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

Heavy Support
Dreadnaught 2xTL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition

Nemesis DreadKnight Personal Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator

Nemesis DreadKnight Personal Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator

This list is all about mobility and trying to create matchup problems. The 2 dk can shunt move near things that cannot hurt it in cc or near squads it can flame to death. Mordrak will go with one of the Strike Squads and deep strike any where I want on the first turn and will not scatter. Most importantly he gives me grand strategy so I have more scoring units or scout if needed. The librarian can go with Mordrak if there is a good solid warp rift target like nob bikers and he protects squads with shrouding and sanctuary. Or if I dont think I need those powers I can go with prescience.

Mordrak is not an IC, so or you give them ghosts, or he will go alone.

DakotaBlue wrote:
Mordrak is not an IC, so or you give them ghosts, or he will go alone.

While that is technically true, you can, however, attach another IC to Mordrak (like the Librarian).

But yeah, if you're going to run Mordrak, you should get some ghost knights for him.

If running Mordrak by himself, just get a regular Grand Master. He'll add more to the army.

CKO, Mordrak cannot join squads. He is not an independent character. He may only be joined by his Ghost Knights who form a unit with him (as part of his special rules).

EDIT: Missed the whole next page and all the ninja's therein...

Mordrak can't join squads.

I take it there's no flyers in your meta?

EDIT: Bloody hell, that was some ninja'ing.

Quick question, can Grand Strategy be used on allies or has that been FaQ'd?

I am a new Grey Knight player did not notice, I am glad alot of you caught on to that, but I made a better list.

HQ
Grand Master Psycannon, Blind Grenades, Psychotroke Grenades Force Sword

Xenos Inquisitor Psychotroke Grenades, Force Sword, BP psyker upgrade, power armour

Troops
10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator MC Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

Heavy Support
Nemesis DreadKnight Personal Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator

Nemesis DreadKnight Personal Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator

Allies
Necron Lord Warscythe Command Barge

5xWarriors, Storm Cryptek Night Scythe

5x Warriors, Storm Cryptek Night Scythe

The Grand Master gives me Grand Strategy aswell as psychic communion to get the flyers to come in on a 2+, he also has a psycannon. The inquisitor is for prescience. The strike squads performed excellent in shooting and with the grenades they win cc. I added another Nemesis DreadKnight that thing is amazing. I added necron allies for some anti-tank, the Command Barge is a unique threat that can do alot of things. The two night scythes provide more anti-tank the 5 warriors and the storm cryptek can take out tanks aswell and invasion beam makes them the most mobile scoring units in the game.

Decent list, but you can probably drop the halberds, hammers and warding staves on the strike squads. At best, upgrade the Justicar to a halberd or hammer, but the rest is too expensive. That'll free up some points for rad grenades on your characters, because at this point, why not?

Ok, Dunwich, the warding stave is no longer master crafted and I was able to give the inquisitor rad grenades.

HQ
Grand Master Psycannon, Psychotroke Grenades Force Sword

Xenos Inquisitor Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades, Force Sword, BP psyker upgrade, power armour

Troops
10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

10x Grey Knight Strike Squad 2xPsycannons, 2xHammers, 2xHalberds, 3xSwords, Justicator Warding Stave, Psybolt Ammunition

Heavy Support
Nemesis DreadKnight Personal Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator

Nemesis DreadKnight Personal Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator

Allies
Necron Lord Warscythe Command Barge

5xWarriors, Storm Cryptek Night Scythe

5x Warriors, Storm Cryptek Night Scythe

I think you should stil thin that strike squad down a bit, something more like this

10 strikes, 2 psycannon, 1 hammer, justicar with halberd, psybolt ammo - 255 points

Compared to your squads at 300, you would save 90 points altogether.

With that you can give the necron lord mindshackle scarabs, upgrade the warriors to immortals, and should still have enough leftover to take a small henchman group or something.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Mordrak can't join squads.

I take it there's no flyers in your meta?

EDIT: Bloody hell, that was some ninja'ing.

Lol sorry, just couldn't help myself XD

Recap from Tournament

To reiterate, my list was (1500):
Draigo and 5 Paladins, 2 MC Psycannons

Coteaz and 10 Purifiers, 4 Psycannons, Psybolts

5 Strikes

2 Dreadknights, both with Incinerator and greatsword

I'll do my best to remember my enemy's force dispositions...

Game 1 v Necrons, Relic +custom rules

Stormlord with Immortals
2 squads of Warriors (10 each)
2 spiders that spawned scarabs
Annihilation Barge with big cannon
Chariot thing with guns
10 Deathmarks
6 Wraiths

Nightfighting, went 2nd. Lightning was annoying, but I didn't lose too much against it. Most of the fighting took place in the middle, since it was obviously Relic; the Dreadknight was massacring everything once it got into CC, including the Stormlord in 1 hit. She barely had anything left at the end of the game, I hadn't lost much at all; sinking a ton of shots into the Dreadknight may not have been the best idea. I never actually picked up the Relic, but had squads contesting it at the end, and won all of the secondary objectives.

Game 2 v Space Marines + IG, Crusade +custom rules

Tac squad w/ lascannon and melta in HB Razorback
Captain + Command squad/honor guard in Asscan Razorback
Tac squad in Droppod with melta
Whirlwind
4 Large squads of Guardsmen, 2 with Autocannons
Aegis defense line + Autocannon addon
Leman Russ, stock
CCS w/ Master of Ordnance

So this guy was the husband of the Necron player, gotta make sure the whole family doesn't like me! He split his force on the sides of the table, and put both of his objectives behind his Aegis defense line, covered in Guardsmen. There was a bit of LOS blocking terrain in the center, so I used that to my advantage for most of the game.

His droppod came down within 12" of Coteaz due to scatter, and was basically ripped apart by the fusillade from the Purifier squad. After minimal damage on his first turn, the Dreadknights marched forward and liquefied large chunks of guardsmen. Draigo and his Paladins fired their psycannons into the side of the Leman Russ, punching through its armor and causing an explodes result which also took out a few more guardsmen.

His whirlwind ineffectually bombarded my Purifiers while Draigo+Paladins and the Dreadknights moved up one side of the field, absorbing the majority of other fire. One of my DKs was taken out by 2 overwatched melta-guns on a charge into the command squad; the other shortly thereafter by more melta. However by the time both the Dreadknights were dead, nearly all of his guardsmen on the objectives had fallen and the Paladins were within striking distance. Draigo split off and melted a squad of guardsmen remaining, while his paladins multi-charged and forced off the rest; clearing his objectives whilst I held both of mine.

Game 3 v Eldar + GK Allies, Purge +custom rules

Eldrad (of course) + harlquins
another squad of harlequins
Dark reapers
Dire avengers
Rangers
Draigo + Terminators, no psycannons

I WAS going to go first, but somehow he managed to roll 6s twice to steal the initiative. My strikes were massacred by his Dark reapers from across the board, apparently allowed no cover saves of any sort by his exarch. He didn't have much other shooting.

I ran the Purifier squad out of LOS and put Coteaz at the lead so he could at least take shots from the Dark reapers, and started to push across the board with Draigo+Pals and Dreadknights. Draigo and co got a few psycannon shots off, felling a couple harlequins.

Turns out his shooting was totally ineffective against terminator armor, so he didn't manage anything. My purifiers and coteaz popped up over the top of a hill and shredded the Dark reapers, nullifying the threat of their AP3 weaponry in one salvo. The dreadknight, already having taken 2 wounds from DANGEROUS TERRAIN... charged into battle with Eldrads squad and was taken down after a round of combat.

Shadow Draigo (his Draigo was only Primered) and his terminators assaulted my Draigo and his Paladins, Shadow Draigo called out a challenge and it was answered by painted Draigo. The Paladins won without too much difficulty, although lost a couple of their number to a Daemonhammer. Draigo v Draigo went for the rest of the game, and painted Draigo somehow managed to kill Shadow Draigo on the 7th turn.

On the other side of the board, the Harlequins and Eldrad, fresh from their kill of the Dreadknight, kept moving towards the Purifiers. They answered with a fusillade from their Psycannons, felling several Harlequins and Eldrad...

but the die was cocked on his last save. It wasn't really cocked, I could easily tell it was a 2, and he had failed his fortuned 3+ invuln. But he insisted it was cocked, and after a judge couldn't make a call on if it was cocked or not because he'd already moved it when the judge arrived, we rolled off to see if he got to make a reroll. I lost the roll off, so he got to make another save for Eldrad... and of course made the save.

The last several turns of the game consisted of Eldrad and his harlequins running away from my Purifiers and surviving Dreadknight. In the end I was victorious, killing more of his units; but it was a very obnoxious game to say the least.

I won best general, but maybe next time I can get the gold for best overall.

Next tourney is 1600 points, so I am going to try out a few new compositions. Probably going back towards more Paladins and more Dreadknights. I'd really like to take 3 DKs and a ton of Paladins, but 1600pts isn't enough for that yet.

Nice tourney... I am new with GK and i can't help from losing all the time from a friend who plays competitive Eldar...

Cougar wrote:
Nice tourney... I am new with GK and i can't help from losing all the time from a friend who plays competitive Eldar...

Eldar does shut down quite alot of GK powers and is quite annoying to fight in many ways. I've found my storm raven to be really useful vs eldar now a days. They have alot of trouble with fliers still. Shunting teleport troops / DK's also do really well vs them. Flamers / incinerators are really nice vs all those cover save loving troops. Also rear armor shots are still deadly vs av 10 rear WS's

Just posted this list and my thoughts on it. I've been wanting to do GK with Necrons, but my money is limiting me to IG allies at the moment. Here's my shot at what I have.

HQ:
Coteaz 100 points

Troops:
10 Strikes, 2 Psycannon, Hammer, Psybolt Ammo, with a Psybolt Heavy Bolter Razorback 300 points
10 Strikes, 2 Psycannon, Hammer, Psybolt Ammo, with a Psybolt Heavy Bolter Razorback 300 points
10 Strikes, 2 Psycannon, Hammer, Psybolt Ammo, with a Psybolt Heavy Bolter Razorback 300 points
4 Acolytes with a Psybolt Heavy Bolter Razorback 66 points
4 Acolytes with a Psybolt Heavy Bolter Razorback 66 points
5 Acolytes with a Psybolt Heavy Bolter Razorback 70 points

Fast Attack:
Stormraven with Psybolt Ammo, Hurricane Bolters 255 points

IG Allies

HQ:
Lord Commissar with Power Axe 80 points

Troops:

Infantry Platoon:
Platoon Command Squad: 30 points
Infantry Squad with Power Axe 60 points
Infantry Squad with Power Axe 60 points
Infantry Squad with Power Axe 60 points
Infantry Squad with Power Axe 60 points
Infantry Squad with Power Axe 60 points

Fast Attack:
Vendetta 130 points


So here's the list idea. I move my Grey Knight Strike Squads up with the IG. Its a foot horde. The Lord Commisar is there for LD10 on the blob. If only Coteaz could attach to the blob. Anyways the Power Axes deter Marines or pretty much any other MEQ squad from charging my IG blob. The Vendetta is on Flyer duty as is the Stormraven with Psybolt Ammo. The Stormraven is also good at anti-psyker and infantry. The Razorbacks are meant to be used as walls. They are not to be used as transports for the army. I'll be blocking my army off and forcing my opponents to waste their shots on either the transports, or the IG blob. The acolytes are really easy to hide behind cover since at my LGS they use lots of LOS blocking terrain. They make great objective campers for me.

Any thoughts?

Reply here or on the Army List thread

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/482948.page

Holy Moley that list looks familiar! lol

-Drop the hurricane bolters and psybolt ammo on the stormraven
-Drop your acolytes to 3 mans, there's no functional difference between 3 and 4 or 5
-Get some searchlights (2-3)

Spend the rest of the points you saved as you see fit, hopefully on a second psyker HQ

Target wrote:
Holy Moley that list looks familiar! lol

-Drop the hurricane bolters and psybolt ammo on the stormraven
-Drop your acolytes to 3 mans, there's no functional difference between 3 and 4 or 5
-Get some searchlights (2-3)

Spend the rest of the points you saved as you see fit, hopefully on a second psyker HQ

Just curious, but why to everything you said? I think the only thing I understand is taking searchlights. I totally forgot about Night Fighting.

Looks like the the SW/guard that won NOVA, sort of.

After trying the hurricane bolter/psybolt ammo stormraven,, its strong, but just to expensive for my liking, and gk have anti-infantry covered anyway. I prefer just multi-melta and the lascannon, and just shoot down other flyers. So far I have taken out a few landraiders, 4 necron scythes (if you feel lucky and use machine spirit) and feel its more effective in this role. But YMMV.

As for allies. For me, whatever I use to allie with my gk, well most likely be my second army, for that reason, I choose Necrons over guard, as in all honestly, I don't want to make and assemble countless guardsman and tanks.

List looks good potential though

 Red Comet wrote:

Target wrote:
Holy Moley that list looks familiar! lol

-Drop the hurricane bolters and psybolt ammo on the stormraven
-Drop your acolytes to 3 mans, there's no functional difference between 3 and 4 or 5
-Get some searchlights (2-3)

Spend the rest of the points you saved as you see fit, hopefully on a second psyker HQ

Just curious, but why to everything you said? I think the only thing I understand is taking searchlights. I totally forgot about Night Fighting.

-Looks familiar -> it's almost a carbon copy of the list I used to win Battle for Salvation recently, which I think someone posted in this thread as well (I also played it at NOVA, but you get no love for going 7-1!)

-Hurricane bolters and psybolt ammo just aren't worth the 50 points in cost, your best use of the stormraven is the missiles and staying at range, as you aren't using them to deliver a combat unit, so there's no incentive to get inside of melta/plasma range to fire off those hurricane bolters, which in truth aren't a considerable amount of torrent in a list that already has plenty of it. A GK stormraven is best served using a MM/Lascannon (for free) which combat other fliers, and picking off psykers with it's missiles

-3 guardsmen with paper armor are no different then 4 or 5, neither are going to shoot and cause any noticeable damage, neither are going to win any real combat, so keep them cheap and reserve them frequently to just walk on and take your backfield objectives

Edit: the additional psyker -> like coteaz, he's a force multiplier, attaching in particular a psycannon termie armor psyker inquisitor (110 points) to a GKSS providing rerolls to your shooting/combat provides a lot of benefit

While I agree with most of that, I disagree on the Storm Raven advice. I like how he has it already.

You advise using it as a back field MM/Lascannon, but then the multimelta is out of range. I don't think Red Comet intends to enter hover mode, so plasmas and meltas will have a hard time hitting (also meltas get no melta bonus). If those shots are directed at the Raven instead of the rest of his army, it's a good thing, means more of the Razors will survive longer. It serves as both a lethal gunship and the ultimate distraction.

While I can see why you would want to keep it cheap if it was a transport (since it will almost certainly die once it unloads its cargo), the gunboat benefits from the extra guns. You force your opponent into two bad options: ignore it and focus your army or focus it and ignore your army. With a lascannon/MM, it becomes much more viable to just ignore it. It's an expensive upgrade and I can see where you're coming from, but this seems like the kind of list that would benefit from it.

 Dunwich wrote:
While I agree with most of that, I disagree on the Storm Raven advice. I like how he has it already.

You advise using it as a back field MM/Lascannon, but then the multimelta is out of range. I don't think Red Comet intends to enter hover mode, so plasmas and meltas will have a hard time hitting (also meltas get no melta bonus). If those shots are directed at the Raven instead of the rest of his army, it's a good thing, means more of the Razors will survive longer. It serves as both a lethal gunship and the ultimate distraction.

While I can see why you would want to keep it cheap if it was a transport (since it will almost certainly die once it unloads its cargo), the gunboat benefits from the extra guns. You force your opponent into two bad options: ignore it and focus your army or focus it and ignore your army. With a lascannon/MM, it becomes much more viable to just ignore it. It's an expensive upgrade and I can see where you're coming from, but this seems like the kind of list that would benefit from it.

The multimelta isnt out of range - it's targeting flyers, which are forced to move quickly and advance close, the hurricane bolters to get a decent number of shots need to be within 12 inches of infantry - where the anti tank guns are.

This kind of list is actually the opposite of what would benefit from that setup, what does he have to deal with flyers and other vehicles:

-6 Psycannons
-Str 6 heavy bolters

What does he have to deal with infantry:
-30 GKSS marines with psybolts, str 5 and str 7 shots, and tons of them, and the ability to twin link
-6 str 6 heavy bolters
-50 lasguns with frfsrf

My experience comes from: this is basically my list.

The Storm Raven is still very effective VS fliers as it is though. The extra guns give it more options once fliers are taken care of or in the case you aren't up against other fliers.

I can see the list is weaker to fliers than infantry, but swapping a TL psy-assault cannon for a TL Lascannon doesn't really change that. The points cost is an issue though, I guess Red Comet will see first hand whether the points are worth it or not when he uses the list. Getting another Divination psyker in the list would be really helpful, so I agree the points might be better spent.

Target wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:

Target wrote:
Holy Moley that list looks familiar! lol

-Drop the hurricane bolters and psybolt ammo on the stormraven
-Drop your acolytes to 3 mans, there's no functional difference between 3 and 4 or 5
-Get some searchlights (2-3)

Spend the rest of the points you saved as you see fit, hopefully on a second psyker HQ

Just curious, but why to everything you said? I think the only thing I understand is taking searchlights. I totally forgot about Night Fighting.

-Looks familiar -> it's almost a carbon copy of the list I used to win Battle for Salvation recently, which I think someone posted in this thread as well (I also played it at NOVA, but you get no love for going 7-1!)

-Hurricane bolters and psybolt ammo just aren't worth the 50 points in cost, your best use of the stormraven is the missiles and staying at range, as you aren't using them to deliver a combat unit, so there's no incentive to get inside of melta/plasma range to fire off those hurricane bolters, which in truth aren't a considerable amount of torrent in a list that already has plenty of it. A GK stormraven is best served using a MM/Lascannon (for free) which combat other fliers, and picking off psykers with it's missiles

Completely wrong.

Remember that Flyers can shoot 4 weapons a turn, the stormraven can shoot 5 with PotMS.

Range is a non-issue with flyers. They will almost always be within 12-24" of the enemy due to their mandatory movement.


The best setup for GKs is Assault Cannon, Multi-melta, hurricane bolters, and psybolts.

Its very east to shoot the hurrican bolters and psycannon into an infantry target and PotMS the MM into a tank.

Alternativly, you shoot the psycannon and MM into a tank to ensure its doom. You can either PotMS one of the hurricane bolters into another target, or they can be very useful against rear armor.

Target wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:

Target wrote:
Holy Moley that list looks familiar! lol

-Drop the hurricane bolters and psybolt ammo on the stormraven
-Drop your acolytes to 3 mans, there's no functional difference between 3 and 4 or 5
-Get some searchlights (2-3)

Spend the rest of the points you saved as you see fit, hopefully on a second psyker HQ

Just curious, but why to everything you said? I think the only thing I understand is taking searchlights. I totally forgot about Night Fighting.

-Looks familiar -> it's almost a carbon copy of the list I used to win Battle for Salvation recently, which I think someone posted in this thread as well (I also played it at NOVA, but you get no love for going 7-1!)

-Hurricane bolters and psybolt ammo just aren't worth the 50 points in cost, your best use of the stormraven is the missiles and staying at range, as you aren't using them to deliver a combat unit, so there's no incentive to get inside of melta/plasma range to fire off those hurricane bolters, which in truth aren't a considerable amount of torrent in a list that already has plenty of it. A GK stormraven is best served using a MM/Lascannon (for free) which combat other fliers, and picking off psykers with it's missiles

-3 guardsmen with paper armor are no different then 4 or 5, neither are going to shoot and cause any noticeable damage, neither are going to win any real combat, so keep them cheap and reserve them frequently to just walk on and take your backfield objectives

Edit: the additional psyker -> like coteaz, he's a force multiplier, attaching in particular a psycannon termie armor psyker inquisitor (110 points) to a GKSS providing rerolls to your shooting/combat provides a lot of benefit

I'm not going to lie. The use of the Razorbacks was a straight copy and paste from your list because it was exactly what I was looking for. I had already been throwing around the idea of 50 IG guys with a Commisar for a while as well as using Rhinos, but I felt Rhinos weren't doing much besides just moving my guys up. Not to mention that it leaves the IG guys too far behind from the original blob of 40 guys I wanted to have. Razorbacks solved the issue I was having with Rhinos. Congratulations on the win!

Interesting suggestion with the Stormraven. I'll definitely try it out since I already have a lot of anti-infantry in the list.

That's true about the acolytes. I was just going to use them as backfield objective holders while my GK and IG midfield. I just threw the extra acolytes in because I had 20 spare points.

I could probably fit the Terminator Inquisitor in if I drop a squad of Acolytes and the Hurricane Bolter + Psybolt combo. Thank you for all the responses. These were actually really helpful, and you among others actually bother to explain yourselves on this thread.

tuiman wrote:
Quick question, can Grand Strategy be used on allies or has that been FaQ'd?

It doesn't need to be as only Battle Brothers can ever benefit from any powers or abilities of their allies, and we have no Battle Brothers.

@daedalus; not trying to take away from your win, but seeing those lists I am not surprised that you won, as yours is miles better than any of them. That's not to say there wasn't excellent players behind them, but on paper I would have bet on you from the get-go.

@ Red Comet; I like the list, though I'd suggest the Storm Raven changes already suggested; more guns is fine and dandy except most of them can't hurt AV12, and the ones that can are relying on good rolling to hurt it, making the dog fight game much tougher. The MM is very easy to get into range and in general flyers aren't about hanging back and shooting, since they don't really have the option most of the time. I'd also give all of those infantry squad a Meltagun each; I've seen this done at the last tournament I was at and it worked very well. I don't think the Power Axes are going to deter much either as they are still only S4. Might as well take a fist.

I also think melta guns are probably better. the first rank fire and second rank fire with that many guardsmen will blow up just about everything as is. Probably not needing that much power weapons and I see that you are a tad light for anti- AP2 or heavy armor for a 2k list.

The lord commisar should be fine enough to replace "get back in the fight" and you don't have enough heavy weapons in the IG blobs to use bring it down anyway. Overall good list =D

Just be careful of sniper fire or other precision shots killing the lord commisar. I've had him taken out by some ratlings in one round of shooting before. (and yes, I somehow failed 3 LoS rolls in one round, I suck >.<
Back when paladins with psycannons were characters, they'd used to instant death alot of T3 guys but at least that's out now. I think only necrons really have alot of that left or maybe eldar with their long range shooting. Surprisingly enough, ork loota shooting with their mek's can actually dump some easy high number of precision shots. I'm guessing Tau can probably do it too with their sergants and team leaders but I haven't fought that many of them. Only I play tau around my area XD

 Red Comet wrote:

Target wrote:

 Red Comet wrote:

Target wrote:
Holy Moley that list looks familiar! lol

-Drop the hurricane bolters and psybolt ammo on the stormraven
-Drop your acolytes to 3 mans, there's no functional difference between 3 and 4 or 5
-Get some searchlights (2-3)

Spend the rest of the points you saved as you see fit, hopefully on a second psyker HQ

Just curious, but why to everything you said? I think the only thing I understand is taking searchlights. I totally forgot about Night Fighting.

-Looks familiar -> it's almost a carbon copy of the list I used to win Battle for Salvation recently, which I think someone posted in this thread as well (I also played it at NOVA, but you get no love for going 7-1!)

-Hurricane bolters and psybolt ammo just aren't worth the 50 points in cost, your best use of the stormraven is the missiles and staying at range, as you aren't using them to deliver a combat unit, so there's no incentive to get inside of melta/plasma range to fire off those hurricane bolters, which in truth aren't a considerable amount of torrent in a list that already has plenty of it. A GK stormraven is best served using a MM/Lascannon (for free) which combat other fliers, and picking off psykers with it's missiles

-3 guardsmen with paper armor are no different then 4 or 5, neither are going to shoot and cause any noticeable damage, neither are going to win any real combat, so keep them cheap and reserve them frequently to just walk on and take your backfield objectives

Edit: the additional psyker -> like coteaz, he's a force multiplier, attaching in particular a psycannon termie armor psyker inquisitor (110 points) to a GKSS providing rerolls to your shooting/combat provides a lot of benefit

I'm not going to lie. The use of the Razorbacks was a straight copy and paste from your list because it was exactly what I was looking for. I had already been throwing around the idea of 50 IG guys with a Commisar for a while as well as using Rhinos, but I felt Rhinos weren't doing much besides just moving my guys up. Not to mention that it leaves the IG guys too far behind from the original blob of 40 guys I wanted to have. Razorbacks solved the issue I was having with Rhinos. Congratulations on the win!

Interesting suggestion with the Stormraven. I'll definitely try it out since I already have a lot of anti-infantry in the list.

That's true about the acolytes. I was just going to use them as backfield objective holders while my GK and IG midfield. I just threw the extra acolytes in because I had 20 spare points.

I could probably fit the Terminator Inquisitor in if I drop a squad of Acolytes and the Hurricane Bolter + Psybolt combo. Thank you for all the responses. These were actually really helpful, and you among others actually bother to explain yourselves on this thread.

Glad to help a bit, the razorbacks have been pretty key if you aren't in a KP heavy environment, which some still are as pseudo 5th edition holdouts. They really aid in increasing your effective range, and in a mirror versus say, a foot heavy strike list, they are all the difference as you can pick off targets before he gets in range.

I personally decided against using my stormravens (which I used 2 of in 5th) just because I used them in 5th primarily for their role as an assault delivery system, and was soured to them as such in 6th. Curious to see you trying it, might actually make me take a second look at them as being able to nuke psykers is quite useful. The one thing I'll say is in my list, I basically ignore fliers almost entirely. In my last 20 GT games (13 at NOVA, 6 at BFS) I've run up against a total of about 30 fliers, the majority of those necrons, but about ~5 being vendettas/stormravens. I've killed a total of 4 fliers of those 30, and not lost any of the games involving the fliers. The truth is in most environments and in general, fliers just aren't THAT impactful on the game. They take points away from what can score/deny table quarters or objectives, have awkward movements, and only really put themselves in the game for 2-3 turns usually. Mind you, ones with hover are much more useful (which both of yours have).

Just my.02, fliers have been doing fairly well, but I've just not been impressed with them. That being said, when/if I run guard primary, i will be running 3 solo vendettas, as they're just too darn good for the price not to.

I see the whole thing about flyers' movement coming up a lot, and several months in it still hasn't come up for me, both for and against. Some basic movement skill and adapt tactics allow your flyers to do something every turn of the game; it's al about planning ahead. Even with a crowded sky it has been the case. Last game of my last tournament, there was 6 flyers in the sky, and they were able to shoot at something every turn. I think a lot of the underwhelming opinions is just people expecting too much out of them; surely if someone expects the move on and win the game reaction that was supposed before 6th edition's release they will be disappointed. Not that this applies in all situations, but I just think a lot of reaction these days is based on people not using their flyers right.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I see the whole thing about flyers' movement coming up a lot, and several months in it still hasn't come up for me, both for and against. Some basic movement skill and adapt tactics allow your flyers to do something every turn of the game; it's al about planning ahead. Even with a crowded sky it has been the case. Last game of my last tournament, there was 6 flyers in the sky, and they were able to shoot at something every turn. I think a lot of the underwhelming opinions is just people expecting too much out of them; surely if someone expects the move on and win the game reaction that was supposed before 6th edition's release they will be disappointed. Not that this applies in all situations, but I just think a lot of reaction these days is based on people not using their flyers right.

There is definitely some truth to what you said - the fact that fliers were/are a bit overhyped/expected to do too much, and so it's easy to be disappointed. But I think the bigger issue is that, while you're right with proper planning you can "shoot at something every turn of the game" (minus t1! ), you can't usually shoot at what you want/need to in later turns. Having a target is great, but if you specifically need to bring all guns to bear on one key situation, you may not be able to, which is where I've been fliers fall short.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


@daedalus; not trying to take away from your win, but seeing those lists I am not surprised that you won, as yours is miles better than any of them. That's not to say there wasn't excellent players behind them, but on paper I would have bet on you from the get-go.

I can only hope if I keep winning, the local meta will get better

Target wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I see the whole thing about flyers' movement coming up a lot, and several months in it still hasn't come up for me, both for and against. Some basic movement skill and adapt tactics allow your flyers to do something every turn of the game; it's al about planning ahead. Even with a crowded sky it has been the case. Last game of my last tournament, there was 6 flyers in the sky, and they were able to shoot at something every turn. I think a lot of the underwhelming opinions is just people expecting too much out of them; surely if someone expects the move on and win the game reaction that was supposed before 6th edition's release they will be disappointed. Not that this applies in all situations, but I just think a lot of reaction these days is based on people not using their flyers right.

There is definitely some truth to what you said - the fact that fliers were/are a bit overhyped/expected to do too much, and so it's easy to be disappointed. But I think the bigger issue is that, while you're right with proper planning you can "shoot at something every turn of the game" (minus t1! ), you can't usually shoot at what you want/need to in later turns. Having a target is great, but if you specifically need to bring all guns to bear on one key situation, you may not be able to, which is where I've been fliers fall short.

But that's the thing, not allowing yourself into a situation where you need all guns to bear at a specific target, because at that point you have usually lost. And I've rarely had to compromise on targets; tool out your flyers right and think several turns ahead; a lot stays static in 40k or at least can't move fast enough to dictate your movement. It all comes down to the basics really; aside from what I've already said, the rest of your list needs to compliment the flyers well or what you have suggested above will likely happen.

I just wanted to say thanks for all of the suggestions. I have a good base to work with and I'll definitely be trying out the suggestions thrown out here. Hopefully over time I can see what tweaks work and which tweaks don't.

With regards to the stormravens, it really depends on the list itself. Don't look at the raven - with or without hurricane bolters - in a vacuum. Rather, look at the rest of the army and see what role it needs to fill. Both the vanilla raven and the souped-up raven (with psybolt hurricane bolters) is a viable choice. In the case of Red Comet/Target's build, the list has enough anti-infantry in the form of psybolt-stormbolters and the IG blob squad. What it lacks is AT and anti-air firepower. The psybolt hurricane bolters, while is an obviously good upgrade, isn't really necessary in that list. For it's role, the TL-MM and TL-Lascannon is good enough. In such a finely-tuned list, you don't need every unit to be a jack-of-all-trades unit. Rather, it is better to specialize units to fill certain "roles" in the army. That is a way to make the army more efficient.

True, the hurricane psybolters are no needed, but they do help and there is no real downside to slapping them on there besides the point cost.

It's not really the downside to having them, but rather, the $50 price tag. That cost isn't really negligable.

But more importantly to me, you're investing an extra $50 to a single-point-of-failure unit that will easily get shot down by some of the more shootier armies out there (or by other flyers). In such a case, I'd rather keep it cheap. It comes in for maybe 1 turn of alpha-strike shooting. Then next turn, it gets shot down if the opponent has even a modicum of shooting.

 jy2 wrote:
It's not really the downside to having them, but rather, the $50 price tag. That cost isn't really negligable.

But more importantly to me, you're investing an extra $50 to a single-point-of-failure unit that will easily get shot down by some of the more shootier armies out there (or by other flyers). In such a case, I'd rather keep it cheap. It comes in for maybe 1 turn of alpha-strike shooting. Then next turn, it gets shot down if the opponent has even a modicum of shooting.

Not really. You not only need a lot of shooting to get those 6's, you need a lot of high strength shooting to break that AV12, and that doesn't come along too often in the game. The Raven is suitably sturdy for the flyer role and is the best thing in the Codex for taking out other flyers. The only other unit that matchs up to it in the AA role is Purifiers with 4 Psycannons and they need Prescience on them to do so.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
It's not really the downside to having them, but rather, the $50 price tag. That cost isn't really negligable.

But more importantly to me, you're investing an extra $50 to a single-point-of-failure unit that will easily get shot down by some of the more shootier armies out there (or by other flyers). In such a case, I'd rather keep it cheap. It comes in for maybe 1 turn of alpha-strike shooting. Then next turn, it gets shot down if the opponent has even a modicum of shooting.

Not really. You not only need a lot of shooting to get those 6's, you need a lot of high strength shooting to break that AV12, and that doesn't come along too often in the game. The Raven is suitably sturdy for the flyer role and is the best thing in the Codex for taking out other flyers. The only other unit that matchs up to it in the AA role is Purifiers with 4 Psycannons and they need Prescience on them to do so.

I'm kind of spoiled by my necrons. With the amount of tesla destructors in my necron list, I can usually take out AV12 armor....including flyers....with just 1 or 2 annihilation barges or scythes. And my crons are only semi-shooty. There are other armies/builds that are even more shooty (i.e. MSU armies, space wolves, grey knights, etc.). Those are the types of armies that can and will easily take down just 1 AV12 flyer. And in competitve, tournament play, these are going to be the types of lists you will probably encounter. Thus, it is my preference to keep my raven as cheap as possible. That has 3 benefits - 1) it's not as big a loss when it does get shot down, 2) less upgrades makes it a slightly less high priority target, thus increasing its survivability and 3) it gives me an extra 50pts to spend on my army.

Of course, if I knew that my local tournament meta was more flyer-lite and infantry-heavy, then I'd go with the psybolt hurricane bolters. Otherwise, I prefer to keep it vanilla instead.

I'm kind of spoiled by my necrons. With the amount of tesla destructors in my necron list, I can usually take out AV12 armor....including flyers....with just 1 or 2 annihilation barges or scythes. And my crons are only semi-shooty. There are other armies/builds that are even more shooty (i.e. MSU armies, space wolves, grey knights, etc.). Those are the types of armies that can and will easily take down just 1 AV12 flyer. And in competitve, tournament play, these are going to be the types of lists you will probably encounter. Thus, it is my preference to keep my raven as cheap as possible. That has 3 benefits - 1) it's not as big a loss when it does get shot down, 2) less upgrades makes it a slightly less high priority target, thus increasing its survivability and 3) it gives me an extra 50pts to spend on my army.

Of course, if I knew that my local tournament meta was more flyer-lite and infantry-heavy, then I'd go with the psybolt hurricane bolters. Otherwise, I prefer to keep it vanilla instead.

So does that mean you are now going with the AC + MM or MM + LC version now Jy2?

or maybe just the psybolts + AC and forget the hurricane?

For me personally I've stuck with the MM + LC just cause it's a dedicated anti-tank unit for me as purifiers is usually enough anti-horde/infantry but I can see AC still being useful in that AT role though alot more dependent on facing I suppose and the still ongoing quibble about the line of sight thing too I guess with the short barrel AC's

 jy2 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
It's not really the downside to having them, but rather, the $50 price tag. That cost isn't really negligable.

But more importantly to me, you're investing an extra $50 to a single-point-of-failure unit that will easily get shot down by some of the more shootier armies out there (or by other flyers). In such a case, I'd rather keep it cheap. It comes in for maybe 1 turn of alpha-strike shooting. Then next turn, it gets shot down if the opponent has even a modicum of shooting.

Not really. You not only need a lot of shooting to get those 6's, you need a lot of high strength shooting to break that AV12, and that doesn't come along too often in the game. The Raven is suitably sturdy for the flyer role and is the best thing in the Codex for taking out other flyers. The only other unit that matchs up to it in the AA role is Purifiers with 4 Psycannons and they need Prescience on them to do so.

I'm kind of spoiled by my necrons. With the amount of tesla destructors in my necron list, I can usually take out AV12 armor....including flyers....with just 1 or 2 annihilation barges or scythes. And my crons are only semi-shooty. There are other armies/builds that are even more shooty (i.e. MSU armies, space wolves, grey knights, etc.). Those are the types of armies that can and will easily take down just 1 AV12 flyer. And in competitve, tournament play, these are going to be the types of lists you will probably encounter. Thus, it is my preference to keep my raven as cheap as possible. That has 3 benefits - 1) it's not as big a loss when it does get shot down, 2) less upgrades makes it a slightly less high priority target, thus increasing its survivability and 3) it gives me an extra 50pts to spend on my army.

Of course, if I knew that my local tournament meta was more flyer-lite and infantry-heavy, then I'd go with the psybolt hurricane bolters. Otherwise, I prefer to keep it vanilla instead.

Well yeah, you've probably seen my lists in my reports, I never take just one Raven and it is always as cheap as possible; I will never taken the sponsons. But I've never lost a Raven to anything on the ground except Lootas, and I've played against all the lists you have mentioned; especially in the case of Space Wolves, they have no AA at all, and even 5 Missile Launchers Long Fangs with Prescience get less than a Hull Point on average. As for the whole Necron thing, they just everything easily

I think I play my flyers pretty cagey but they still go down. i use three Nurgle FMCs at 2000. By turn three I sometimes have one left against opponents that have decent firepower. I've learned to hide them in cc on occasion - something that is almost counter-intuitive. It lets me finish off a weakened squad and then take to the air again to finish the game. I don't think flyers are all that scary to be honest - they work agaist lists that have no defense against them (mine is weak I confess) but you can ignore them if need be.

FMCs are a totally different story though, as they can be grounded and can't jink unlike flyers. While good, they still aren't as good as flyers. I also find a struggling duality in their role in that MCs' usually are taken for combat, but they can't charge until they come down.

 felixcat wrote:

I think I play my flyers pretty cagey but they still go down. i use three Nurgle FMCs at 2000. By turn three I sometimes have one left against opponents that have decent firepower. I've learned to hide them in cc on occasion - something that is almost counter-intuitive. It lets me finish off a weakened squad and then take to the air again to finish the game. I don't think flyers are all that scary to be honest - they work agaist lists that have no defense against them (mine is weak I confess) but you can ignore them if need be.

Yeah, FMC's are not as tough as most people think. As I play both with and against FMC-heavy daemon lists, most of the time they get shot down/grounded and then can be assaulted. Flyers, on the other hand, can't. Also, FMC's can be affected by small-arms fire while flyers can't.

However, FMC's in a daemon list are extremely viable....especially once you include flamers and screamers into that list. Then the FMC's aren't the most important targets anymore.

Flyers can be ignored but only if you design your list with enough resiliency to survive their onslaught (especially in the case of the Necron Airforce). Otherwise, flyers are usually there specifically to deal with certain targets (i.e. armor or infantry) and to perform "surgical" strikes against specific targets. If your list doesn't happen to have the targets that they are looking for (i.e. vendetta vs a horde army), then yeah, you can pretty much ignore them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sudojoe wrote:

I'm kind of spoiled by my necrons. With the amount of tesla destructors in my necron list, I can usually take out AV12 armor....including flyers....with just 1 or 2 annihilation barges or scythes. And my crons are only semi-shooty. There are other armies/builds that are even more shooty (i.e. MSU armies, space wolves, grey knights, etc.). Those are the types of armies that can and will easily take down just 1 AV12 flyer. And in competitve, tournament play, these are going to be the types of lists you will probably encounter. Thus, it is my preference to keep my raven as cheap as possible. That has 3 benefits - 1) it's not as big a loss when it does get shot down, 2) less upgrades makes it a slightly less high priority target, thus increasing its survivability and 3) it gives me an extra 50pts to spend on my army.

Of course, if I knew that my local tournament meta was more flyer-lite and infantry-heavy, then I'd go with the psybolt hurricane bolters. Otherwise, I prefer to keep it vanilla instead.

So does that mean you are now going with the AC + MM or MM + LC version now Jy2?

or maybe just the psybolts + AC and forget the hurricane?

For me personally I've stuck with the MM + LC just cause it's a dedicated anti-tank unit for me as purifiers is usually enough anti-horde/infantry but I can see AC still being useful in that AT role though alot more dependent on facing I suppose and the still ongoing quibble about the line of sight thing too I guess with the short barrel AC's

While I like the AC+MM loadout, I normally equip my raven with LC+MM primarily in the role of anti-tank/anti-flyer/anti-MC. I usually have enough anti-infantry and a lot of psycannons in my lists such that the AC isn't as necessary. However, my shooting is starved for AP 1/2 weaponry.

 felixcat wrote:

I don't think flyers are all that scary to be honest - they work agaist lists that have no defense against them (mine is weak I confess) but you can ignore them if need be.

I agree with felixcat, in fact my first post on this thread was:

 CKO wrote:
After taking my hiatus I am ready to start back playing again! 6th edition has rolled around and I am building a grey knight list but I am worried that I dont have enough anti-air weaponry. I only have 4 psycannons and 1 dreadnaught in 2k? Besides the doomscythe I dont see their damage output being to much of a concern, or am I missing something?

I dont think one flyer can win the game and spam list have weaknesses that you can exploit. Flyers are good when you pepper in 1 - 2 just to give your opponent somethig to think about. Ofcourse my list has drastically change to create mismatch problems.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I see the whole thing about flyers' movement coming up a lot, and several months in it still hasn't come up for me, both for and against. Some basic movement skill and adapt tactics allow your flyers to do something every turn of the game; it's al about planning ahead. Even with a crowded sky it has been the case. Last game of my last tournament, there was 6 flyers in the sky, and they were able to shoot at something every turn. I think a lot of the underwhelming opinions is just people expecting too much out of them; surely if someone expects the move on and win the game reaction that was supposed before 6th edition's release they will be disappointed. Not that this applies in all situations, but I just think a lot of reaction these days is based on people not using their flyers right.

I played against a few flyer heavy lists at NOVA and the movement restriction is a very real thing. Even great opponents will have difficulty getting everything into place for optimized strafing runs because you can deny them advantageous movement by spreading out units or abusing their inability to make multiple turns and pivots. As Target pointed out, the flyers may be able to shoot but its damn near impossible to bring all your firepower to bear. Average rolls from a tesla destructor nets you less than 2 dead marines, so while they are great guns, they must still be focus fired to be effective.

I am pretty damn sour on Flyers especially in limited quantities. Solo Storm-Ravens or even dual Ravens seem like a very pointless investment. If you happen to run into an army that heavily spam Flyers you will probably lose your Flyer(s) with them having VERY little impact (unfortunately Flyer vs Flyer match-ups are almost entirely dependent on who gets their Flyers on the board second). The Raven also lacks the offensive firepower to make up for its incredibly hefty price-tag. For similar points you can get a DK which I think is far, far better. Ignoring Flyers is the best possibly thing anyone can do, IMO.

(unfortunately Flyer vs Flyer match-ups are almost entirely dependent on who gets their Flyers on the board second).

I've used this to my advantage a few times recently since this thread got me trying out grand master Modrak builds again. With just him and a ghost knight for stealth, he's not that huge looking of a threat so he's actually helped with psy communion giving me a -1 to my reserves to get my flier in later on to go into the anti-air role. It was kind of fun to use him that way and I had never tried it that way before.

LValx wrote:Ignoring Flyers is the best possibly thing anyone can do, IMO.

Except it doesn't work. I've seen people try this countless times at various tournaments and the fact is it just can't be done so easily. So imagine I'm playing jy2's Necrons and I decide I don't need to worry about his 4 TL Tesla Desrtuctors and more importantly his 2 Death Rays, are you telling me that isn't going to clean up a lot of models that will make winning on the ground less likely? People forget so much when they talk about this topic. They say you will have more bodies on the ground so you have an advantage if you ignore flyers, but they forget that by ignoring them they kill enough to even the odds on the ground. They say just ignore them and gimp their movement, but they don't seem to realise by doing that you aren't ignoring them, as they are now partly dictating your movement; sure he flies off the board instead of crashing, but losing ones unit's shooting isn't half as bad as having a unit out of place in a disadvantagous position.

Since 6th edition started I've consistently placed high at all the tournaments I've attended, and this is partly due to games where people brings no dedicated anti-air and try to ignore my two Ravens. Then my two Ravens with their 'not enough firepower' as you put it, clean up house, with what in actuality is plenty of firepower, especially over 4-6 turns. I've never had to fly off the board because the simple fact is most armies don't have the bodies to block you up, or as mentioned above, it goes against their strategy and moves them out of position, plus the only way this is going to happen is if the person using the flyer moves it to a spot where next turn they know the opponent can block up its movement. In this game of movement between the flyer and the ground, it is much easier for the flyer to dictate one spot it needs to land than it is for the ground to dictate all of the ones it can't. The only armies that should feasily be able to dictate your flyer movement without screwing themselves in the process are Orks and Nids, for obvious reasons.

Lastly the idea that dual Ravens is a waste of points because they are automatically beaten by 4 Necron flyers is a fallacy. Considering I've both won and lost this match-up in the past, I think I have a right to say it is not so cut and dry. And like all dog fights, it is greatly decided by who shows up first. A Storm Raven has a high enough chance of blowing up a Necron flyer off the bat, at which point it becomes 2 on 2, and the Storm Ravens easily win that one. Grey Knights also have means of dictating their reserves to a degree, Necrons don't.

I appreciate that flyers are far from overpowered, but as jy2 said above, it you don't prepare for them and try to ignore them with a list that doesn't have the man power to sustain such damage (and most of them can't) then you are in trouble. They are not overpowered, but they just simply are not ignorable.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

LValx wrote:Ignoring Flyers is the best possibly thing anyone can do, IMO.

Except it doesn't work. I've seen people try this countless times at various tournaments and the fact is it just can't be done so easily. So imagine I'm playing jy2's Necrons and I decide I don't need to worry about his 4 TL Tesla Desrtuctors and more importantly his 2 Death Rays, are you telling me that isn't going to clean up a lot of models that will make winning on the ground less likely? People forget so much when they talk about this topic. They say you will have more bodies on the ground so you have an advantage if you ignore flyers, but they forget that by ignoring them they kill enough to even the odds on the ground. They say just ignore them and gimp their movement, but they don't seem to realise by doing that you aren't ignoring them, as they are now partly dictating your movement; sure he flies off the board instead of crashing, but losing ones unit's shooting isn't half as bad as having a unit out of place in a disadvantagous position.

Since 6th edition started I've consistently placed high at all the tournaments I've attended, and this is partly due to games where people brings no dedicated anti-air and try to ignore my two Ravens. Then my two Ravens with their 'not enough firepower' as you put it, clean up house, with what in actuality is plenty of firepower, especially over 4-6 turns. I've never had to fly off the board because the simple fact is most armies don't have the bodies to block you up, or as mentioned above, it goes against their strategy and moves them out of position, plus the only way this is going to happen is if the person using the flyer moves it to a spot where next turn they know the opponent can block up its movement. In this game of movement between the flyer and the ground, it is much easier for the flyer to dictate one spot it needs to land than it is for the ground to dictate all of the ones it can't. The only armies that should feasily be able to dictate your flyer movement without screwing themselves in the process are Orks and Nids, for obvious reasons.

Lastly the idea that dual Ravens is a waste of points because they are automatically beaten by 4 Necron flyers is a fallacy. Considering I've both won and lost this match-up in the past, I think I have a right to say it is not so cut and dry. And like all dog fights, it is greatly decided by who shows up first. A Storm Raven has a high enough chance of blowing up a Necron flyer off the bat, at which point it becomes 2 on 2, and the Storm Ravens easily win that one. Grey Knights also have means of dictating their reserves to a degree, Necrons don't.

I appreciate that flyers are far from overpowered, but as jy2 said above, it you don't prepare for them and try to ignore them with a list that doesn't have the man power to sustain such damage (and most of them can't) then you are in trouble. They are not overpowered, but they just simply are not ignorable.

I think like most things, the answer in the discussion you two are having lies somewhere in the middle, but before saying "the just simply are not ignorable" you may want to consider the proof being in the pudding, so to speak:

Ole Kopach wins both NOVA events pretty much off of the back of ignoring fliers, and using zero
I go 7-1 at NOVA and take the top bracket - with no fliers and a list designed to ignore them
I go 6-0 at BFS and win - with no fliers and a list designed to ignore them

Now, I'm not saying fliers are terrible (and anyone who is is making too generalized of a statement), but ignoring them is a very real, and very valid strategy. While you may place high at your local events, remember that the level of competition sky rockets at GT's, which is really more where you should be thinking - at local events being the one guy that brings a good list, or being one of the few good tactical players can win you the day, despite your list, which can make you falsely believe "omg this list is good" when it's really something else - trust me, I've been guilty of this many a time myself.

My general rule of thumb for fliers is that for the necron variety, their movement screws them, and for the stormraven/vendetta variety (hovering is an option), I ignore them as they can't put out enough damage to change what I'm doing, and if they unload some sort of cargo, I'll kill it then. Do they hurt? Definitely! Do they hurt enough? Not that I've seen so far for lists sporting 100+ bodies.

now that I own green tide as well enough fliers to try this vs myself I've seen this argument from both your sides and I think what you guys are both arguing is true cept you have to take into consideration your own army build.

The fewer bodies you have or weak leadership or in essense MSU with expensive units such as GK's, it gets much harder to ignore fliers as they can do relatively more damage vs your expensive units vs say...

100 sized ork mobs or IG platoons with a lord commisar or heck even necron warrior blocks with rez orb or ghost ark support tend to be able to igore the fliers much more reliably and do not really care that they lose 5 models a turn.

I've literally not cared that a void raven dropped a bunch of missle plates on my 30 man boyz mob just cause at the end of all their lances and pie plates, because I got cover, even with 5+ cover, I'll probably only lose 10-12 guys and my unit will still be deadly enough to hold objectives, shoot or charge something useful.

Fairly similar with the IG mob, it's just too big and has wayyy too many bodies and likely with a 4+ or 2+ GtG save (that they will get up from with get back in the fight) that it can easily absorb storm raven or even necron flier fire and not care.

Personally, I think the critical mass for "survivable" troops seem to be at around 20+ or better at 30 model sized units. It's just so easy to ignore fliers with that many bodies. I really find that I don't care when I play horde orks. I often have to plan and get really screwed over vs say my purifier lists.

Godless tends to use few units and fairly expensive ones so he's right in that he can't afford to ignore them
Target tends to have some of the above from what I've seen of his lists so he is in fact designing his lists to not care about fliers.

I think when looking at what each of you guys are talking about from your perspectives, it makes good sense from a list build perspective.

Target wrote:Ole Kopach wins both NOVA events pretty much off of the back of ignoring fliers, and using zero
I go 7-1 at NOVA and take the top bracket - with no fliers and a list designed to ignore them
I go 6-0 at BFS and win - with no fliers and a list designed to ignore them

Doesn't NOVA put alternate scenarios on the table that give you several different types of objectives to play for? That means that no matter what type your list is you have a chance. It is a great balancing tool, but it's not standard 40k rules, which is what a general discussion is. Or am I thinking of a different US tournament?

Also some notes in that analysis; for both your own lists you mention this phrase, 'a list designed to ignore them'. Now go back and read my posts, specifically the parts about needing enough resilience on the ground to weather the storm. The problem is people are underestimating flyers and putting the 'ignore them' strategy forward as a general idea. This is not a plausible general idea. You have to be tooled out specifically to do it, which is what you were, and why it worked. In other words since I have said this already, you are actually agreeing with me, not disagreeing, or at least what you posted is anyway.

On another note, what were the three lists from the examples above, and how many flyer heavy armies did each face?

Target wrote:Do they hurt? Definitely! Do they hurt enough? Not that I've seen so far for lists sporting 100+ bodies.

Which again, is what I've been saying already. The problem is 100+ bodies is not something that Grey Knights put out in your average competitive list, and that's what the discussion has been about, GK anti-air and flyers.

Target wrote:While you may place high at your local events, remember that the level of competition sky rockets at GT's, which is really more where you should be thinking - at local events being the one guy that brings a good list, or being one of the few good tactical players can win you the day, despite your list, which can make you falsely believe "omg this list is good" when it's really something else - trust me, I've been guilty of this many a time myself.

I respected all of your post right until this bit right here; this is nothing more than an elitest assumption, one that unlike regular assumptions only makes an ass of you, and not me. You seemingly are assuming because I disagree with you the tournaments I have done well at must only be small local ones and you are assuming that US tournaments are harder than others. In other words you are making blind assumptions to put yourself ahead as a superior competitive player to make your argument.

I don't play small local tournaments because the local tournaments aren't very competitive and the guy that runs the shop here is not a particularly nice person. I play my regular games in our own private club at a mate's house with a group of like-minded and similarly skilled individuals, most of which are tournament regulars who place well also. We travel to tournaments only, and only to the large successful ones over here.

So please don't make assumptions like you have above because it is quite offensive, and IMO diminishes your otherwise good point. If you were just making a general observation then I apologise and ignore this, but I advise to make that clearer in future. I have no problem with you and never have as I think you are good poster, which is why I find this bit of the post out of character.

For the record as well, you should look at some tournament statistics based on general GTs and Master style events. It is proven that is harder to win at a smaller event of predominently good players, than at a larger event with a mix which mostly pushes on fun gamers, which is the catagory that most GTs fall under. On another note, calling something a GT doesn't make it better or harder, and notibly most of the tournies in the US have attached the phrase GT to their name for publicity sake.

At nova I went 5-1. Eliminated in the top 8. I faced two lists sporting 9 flyers and EASILY beat both. The fact of the matter is that the damage output on them simply hasn't impressed me. This is largely due to the fact that they rarely bring all their firepower to bear on units. Ive faced lists with a few ravens and have always ignored them with great success. Most of the anti-air available to older codices is incredibly poor and far too easily killed. Id rather focus on pure durability and the ability to kill whatever ground units may appear.

You say that GK cannot easily field enough bodies, that may have held true in 5th but in 6th allies have helped alleviate such issues. SW can provide cheap 3+ saves and IG can provide mass bodies.

I've seen Ravens used and personally I dont find them to be a good investment. IMO, the risk of running into a cron list fielding 4-5+ flyers is too high to take solo or even dual AV-12 flyers. 2 Tesla destructors have a fair chance of killing a Raven and from what I have seen Necrons are easily the most popular army around.

I will acknowledge that NOVA nerfed Flyer armies a bit with their style of missions but even in games using book missions I have had complete success against flyers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BFS and Nova both draw the highest competition. I had to face quite a few highly ranked players in later rounds and without a doubt faced a higher level of competition at NOVA than any local tournament ive been at. But this is just what I have experienced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This list clocks in at around 1850:
Coteaz
6x 10 strike squads with 2 cannons
SM detachment:
Librarian
2x 10 tactical squads with plasma, combi plasma

At 2k you can sprinkle in a few more things. 80 MEQ bodies is quite durable. I'm not endorsing this list as particularly good but it goes to show that GK can mass bodies quite well.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Target wrote:Ole Kopach wins both NOVA events pretty much off of the back of ignoring fliers, and using zero
I go 7-1 at NOVA and take the top bracket - with no fliers and a list designed to ignore them
I go 6-0 at BFS and win - with no fliers and a list designed to ignore them

Doesn't NOVA put alternate scenarios on the table that give you several different types of objectives to play for? That means that no matter what type your list is you have a chance. It is a great balancing tool, but it's not standard 40k rules, which is what a general discussion is. Or am I thinking of a different US tournament?

Also some notes in that analysis; for both your own lists you mention this phrase, 'a list designed to ignore them'. Now go back and read my posts, specifically the parts about needing enough resilience on the ground to weather the storm. The problem is people are underestimating flyers and putting the 'ignore them' strategy forward as a general idea. This is not a plausible general idea. You have to be tooled out specifically to do it, which is what you were, and why it worked. In other words since I have said this already, you are actually agreeing with me, not disagreeing, or at least what you posted is anyway.

On another note, what were the three lists from the examples above, and how many flyer heavy armies did each face?

Target wrote:Do they hurt? Definitely! Do they hurt enough? Not that I've seen so far for lists sporting 100+ bodies.

Which again, is what I've been saying already. The problem is 100+ bodies is not something that Grey Knights put out in your average competitive list, and that's what the discussion has been about, GK anti-air and flyers.

Target wrote:While you may place high at your local events, remember that the level of competition sky rockets at GT's, which is really more where you should be thinking - at local events being the one guy that brings a good list, or being one of the few good tactical players can win you the day, despite your list, which can make you falsely believe "omg this list is good" when it's really something else - trust me, I've been guilty of this many a time myself.

I respected all of your post right until this bit right here; this is nothing more than an elitest assumption, one that unlike regular assumptions only makes an ass of you, and not me. You seemingly are assuming because I disagree with you the tournaments I have done well at must only be small local ones and you are assuming that US tournaments are harder than others. In other words you are making blind assumptions to put yourself ahead as a superior competitive player to make your argument.

I don't play small local tournaments because the local tournaments aren't very competitive and the guy that runs the shop here is not a particularly nice person. I play my regular games in our own private club at a mate's house with a group of like-minded and similarly skilled individuals, most of which are tournament regulars who place well also. We travel to tournaments only, and only to the large successful ones over here.

So please don't make assumptions like you have above because it is quite offensive, and IMO diminishes your otherwise good point. If you were just making a general observation then I apologise and ignore this, but I advise to make that clearer in future. I have no problem with you and never have as I think you are good poster, which is why I find this bit of the post out of character.

For the record as well, you should look at some tournament statistics based on general GTs and Master style events. It is proven that is harder to win at a smaller event of predominently good players, than at a larger event with a mix which mostly pushes on fun gamers, which is the catagory that most GTs fall under. On another note, calling something a GT doesn't make it better or harder, and notibly most of the tournies in the US have attached the phrase GT to their name for publicity sake.

If you took that much offense to a rather innocuous comment, you should reconsider if the internet is for you.

GT's in the U.S., which is where my experience lies, are much more competitive (than smaller/local events in the US), and are the only metric worth using in the states. Local events due to the lower population density don't attract enough good players to be truly competitive, and usually boil down to, at best, a shoot out between one or two locally competitive players. GTs here are attended primarily by competitive players and are quickly distilled down into purely tough opponents at the upper end. That's not a knock at local events, just an assessment. I enjoy local events as much as anyone else and live in a very, very competitive area, however I don't overly pat myself on the back for doing well in them, as they're more relaxed and for fun.

Also, as per what the poster above said: this is 6th edition, "competitive" GK lists have no problem fielding lots of bodies due to the addition of allies. Most GK lists we see around here that are competitive feature allies to add in a high body count, or are of the strike-spam nature, and feature ~60 power armored bodies + toys.

@NOVA -> NOVA has alternate scenarios in a tiered goal system, you're never playing for "all" goals at once, so missions still come down to KP (now called VP I suppose), table quarters, objectives, etc., depending on the mission, which are tie-broken by the next goal, and so on. Most major tournaments feature some tweak of the rules in the US, and it's exceedingly rare (if not unheard of) for any of the major and widely regarded as "competitive" events to use standard book missions. So a general discussion of tournaments, at least in the United States, pertains more to a system like NOVA, Adepticon, BFS, etc.

@agreeing

My post was meant to agree with you, because I do in general. I'm just also specifying that fliers are ignorable, if you build for it, and that is a valid and fairly common strategy/aspect of competitive lists right now in the US.

I ended with:
"Now, I'm not saying fliers are terrible (and anyone who is is making too generalized of a statement), but ignoring them is a very real, and very valid strategy."

Most lists over here presently have quickly turned to either flyer heavy, or body heavy (100+), so for us/from my experience, when I talk about ignoring flyers being a valid strategy, I don't see it being as you said "This is not a plausible general idea." Because around here - that is exactly what your general lists are doing.



Sidenote:

"For the record as well, you should look at some tournament statistics based on general GTs and Master style events. It is proven that is harder to win at a smaller event of predominently good players, than at a larger event with a mix which mostly pushes on fun gamers, which is the catagory that most GTs fall under. On another note, calling something a GT doesn't make it better or harder, and notibly most of the tournies in the US have attached the phrase GT to their name for publicity sake."

-The phrase "it is proven" is a hallmark of a made up statement. Who exactly proved this? Do you have confidence that it would hold true when you went to a completely different environment (UK -> US)
-How many US GT's have you played at to know that this is the category most GTs fall under? Most UK GTs possibly, I can't speak to that however as I've never seen or played in one.
-Do you have a lot of experience with GT's in the US and knowing whether they deserve or don't deserve that name tacked onto their headline? My experience is that GTs in the US use that name to denote the fact that there will be 5 games minimum (rather than the RTT/local tourney standard of 3), and usually some implication of a larger size of field and more structured set of rules as well.

If I had to take a guess, I'd say your comparison of GTs to Master Style events is based on purely UK events - which doesn't hold up in the US -> a different beast entirely for many reasons

Target wrote:

Also, as per what the poster above said: this is 6th edition, "competitive" GK lists have no problem fielding lots of bodies due to the addition of allies. Most GK lists we see around here that are competitive feature allies to add in a high body count, or are of the strike-spam nature, and feature ~60 power armored bodies + toys.

Actually, you are slightly ahead of the curve. Not everyone is migrating towards these types of builds because not everyone fully understands what it takes to be successful in 6E. This is the beginning of a new trend in competitive 6E 40k. The competitive meta has now changed in 6E to flyer-based armies and the new anti-meta is now horde-based armies, or an army that can actually survive the onslaught of a full-on Necron Airforce. Now this "anti-meta" build is not necessarily a full horde-based army, but people who understand the game are beginning to see that you either need a lot of shooting or a lot of resiliency to compete against the new meta. That is one of the reasons why I am migrating from Draigowing and Crowe-Purifiers to a more striker-based army. It is also why I am starting to run horde orks, tervigon tyranids, Fateweaver-based daemons and a wraithwing-scythe hybrid necrons. They aren't perfect, but they are good enough to do well against a wide range of armies, including flyer-based armies.

However, not every locale runs flyer-heavy necron armies. And also, IMO the majority of gamers out there are still semi- to non-competitive. They are people who are still relatively new to 6th and primarily using a translation of their 5th edition lists. It's going to take some time before most people really know how to play 6E and then for some, that may never happen. From the perspective of the more competitive players, you can say to ignore those flyers because you know how to play against them, but for the majority of the players out there, I feel that this advice is somewhat naive (and also irresponsible) because you are assuming they know how to play the game. If you want to make this statement, you need to add in some qualifiers to explain what you mean. Otherwise, the average joe - maybe after he reads the advice to ignore flyers here on dakka - goes out there and plays a game of against a flyer-based army, only to get obliterated and leave with a bad feeling for the game afterwards. Thus, I will help to add some qualifiers to your advice.

Against flyers, there are really 2 ways to play against them. The first is to bring a lot of shooting to your army so that you can deal with them head-on (i.e. shoot them down). The other way to play against them is to bring enough resiliency to your army - by bringing a an army with a high model count (i.e. horde armies) or armies with very resilient units (i.e. terminators, wraithwing, etc.) - so that you can survive their onslaught. It is the 2nd scenario where your strategy is to "ignore them" but you need to bring enough bodies or enough resiliency to survive several turns of shooting from these flyer-based armies.

 jy2 wrote:

Target wrote:

Also, as per what the poster above said: this is 6th edition, "competitive" GK lists have no problem fielding lots of bodies due to the addition of allies. Most GK lists we see around here that are competitive feature allies to add in a high body count, or are of the strike-spam nature, and feature ~60 power armored bodies + toys.

Actually, you are slightly ahead of the curve. Not everyone is migrating towards these types of builds because not everyone fully understands what it takes to be successful in 6E. This is the beginning of a new trend in competitive 6E 40k. The competitive meta has now changed in 6E to flyer-based armies and the new anti-meta is now horde-based armies, or an army that can actually survive the onslaught of a full-on Necron Airforce. Now this "anti-meta" build is not necessarily a full horde-based army, but people who understand the game are beginning to see that you either need a lot of shooting or a lot of resiliency to compete against the new meta. That is one of the reasons why I am migrating from Draigowing and Crowe-Purifiers to a more striker-based army. It is also why I am starting to run horde orks, tervigon tyranids, Fateweaver-based daemons and a wraithwing-scythe hybrid necrons. They aren't perfect, but they are good enough to do well against a wide range of armies, including flyer-based armies.

However, not every locale runs flyer-heavy necron armies. And also, IMO the majority of gamers out there are still semi- to non-competitive. They are people who are still relatively new to 6th and primarily using a translation of their 5th edition lists. It's going to take some time before most people really know how to play 6E and then for some, that may never happen. From the perspective of the more competitive players, you can say to ignore those flyers because you know how to play against them, but for the majority of the players out there, I feel that this advice is somewhat naive (and also irresponsible) because you are assuming they know how to play the game. If you want to make this statement, you need to add in some qualifiers to explain what you mean. Otherwise, the average joe - maybe after he reads the advice to ignore flyers here on dakka - goes out there and plays a game of against a flyer-based army, only to get obliterated and leave with a bad feeling for the game afterwards. Thus, I will help to add some qualifiers to your advice.

Against flyers, there are really 2 ways to play against them. The first is to bring a lot of shooting to your army so that you can deal with them head-on (i.e. shoot them down). The other way to play against them is to bring enough resiliency to your army - by bringing a an army with a high model count (i.e. horde armies) or armies with very resilient units (i.e. terminators, wraithwing, etc.) - so that you can survive their onslaught. It is the 2nd scenario where your strategy is to "ignore them" but you need to bring enough bodies or enough resiliency to survive several turns of shooting from these flyer-based armies.

Couldn't agree more. This is a better articulated version of what I've been trying (and apparently failing) to say.

CSM FAQ http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2710181a_Chaos_Space_Marines_v1.0a.pdf

Very short. Only 5 Errata and no FAQ questions.


So Zombies are now to be found in hordes, Khorne DPs can take Khorne artifacts, terminators got their options back, and Hellbrutes got cheaper.

So Khorne Daemon Princes will be nastier, and the ultimate tarpits of doom have arrived.

 Grey Templar wrote:
CSM FAQ http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2710181a_Chaos_Space_Marines_v1.0a.pdf

Very short. Only 5 Errata and no FAQ questions.


So Zombies are now to be found in hordes, Khorne DPs can take Khorne artifacts, terminators got their options back, and Hellbrutes got cheaper.

So Khorne Daemon Princes will be nastier, and the ultimate tarpits of doom have arrived.

Makes me wonder how much playtesting/proof reading gets done before they release a codex

The zombie thing should have been picked up and changed straight away before printing, and changing points costs...really?

As for the flyer argument, my stormraven started as the psybolt ammo gun boat, but now just runs lascannon, multi-melta. Cheaper and anti-tank which we lack on

tuiman wrote:The zombie thing should have been picked up and changed straight away before printing, and changing points costs...really?

This is a good thing though, as now there has finally been a precedent set that show they are willing to do this.

Played a quick 1000 point game against a wolves player, my list was something like:

Coteaz

2x5 purifiers in rhinos
5 strikers (deepstriking)
2x3 henchman in psybacks
2 psyfleman

He took 3 squads of missile long fangs, each one had a rune priest with divination

He goes first, puts prescience on all the long fang squads, blows up a dread and all the transports first turn with split fire and the re-rolling to hits, Then proceeds to kill me as I march towards his gunline.

Manged to pull it back a bit but the damage was done, I know I would have been better to take either a raven, shunting dread knight etc to get up in his face, but before hand we said it would be a friendly game.

Never trust a wolf player

It was short table edge deployment so was hard for me to get close, he just sat back and rolled dice.

What were his Troops?

Long Fangs arn't troops.

 Grey Templar wrote:
What were his Troops?

Long Fangs arn't troops.

2 lots of 5 grey hunters in lascannon razorbacks (again sit back shooting)

I was also unlucky as we rolled the kill point mission, I would have probably done better on objectives

Nothing you can do against that; that's filthy for 1000pts. Your list was solid, but nothing on his. Hard luck mate.

 jy2 wrote:


Actually, you are slightly ahead of the curve. Not everyone is migrating towards these types of builds because not everyone fully understands what it takes to be successful in 6E. This is the beginning of a new trend in competitive 6E 40k. The competitive meta has now changed in 6E to flyer-based armies and the new anti-meta is now horde-based armies, or an army that can actually survive the onslaught of a full-on Necron Airforce. Now this "anti-meta" build is not necessarily a full horde-based army, but people who understand the game are beginning to see that you either need a lot of shooting or a lot of resiliency to compete against the new meta. That is one of the reasons why I am migrating from Draigowing and Crowe-Purifiers to a more striker-based army. It is also why I am starting to run horde orks, tervigon tyranids, Fateweaver-based daemons and a wraithwing-scythe hybrid necrons. They aren't perfect, but they are good enough to do well against a wide range of armies, including flyer-based armies.

However, not every locale runs flyer-heavy necron armies. And also, IMO the majority of gamers out there are still semi- to non-competitive. They are people who are still relatively new to 6th and primarily using a translation of their 5th edition lists. It's going to take some time before most people really know how to play 6E and then for some, that may never happen. From the perspective of the more competitive players, you can say to ignore those flyers because you know how to play against them, but for the majority of the players out there, I feel that this advice is somewhat naive (and also irresponsible) because you are assuming they know how to play the game. If you want to make this statement, you need to add in some qualifiers to explain what you mean. Otherwise, the average joe - maybe after he reads the advice to ignore flyers here on dakka - goes out there and plays a game of against a flyer-based army, only to get obliterated and leave with a bad feeling for the game afterwards. Thus, I will help to add some qualifiers to your advice.

Against flyers, there are really 2 ways to play against them. The first is to bring a lot of shooting to your army so that you can deal with them head-on (i.e. shoot them down). The other way to play against them is to bring enough resiliency to your army - by bringing a an army with a high model count (i.e. horde armies) or armies with very resilient units (i.e. terminators, wraithwing, etc.) - so that you can survive their onslaught. It is the 2nd scenario where your strategy is to "ignore them" but you need to bring enough bodies or enough resiliency to survive several turns of shooting from these flyer-based armies.

It's an interesting topic jy2. I feel like the current metas have fallen into the following categories:

Fliers (and spam them! - more or less just necrons atm) - good at tank hunting and being hard to kill

large masses of infantry to ignore the fliers- good at objective camping and hard to dislodge but vulnerable to template weapons

mech lists - believe it or not, these still are pretty good. gives the infantry lists a hard time but usually get swamped by fliers.

Kind of like a rock paper scissors thing we got going on. What do you guys think?

I've found infantry lists beat mech in 6th.

Yeah, SW can be really good at the lower points games, much better than the grey knights. My 1K SW list used to consist of:

Rune Priest
3 units of 6-7 grey hunters in rhinos
2 units of missile long fangs

You get a lot of bang for the buck.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sudojoe wrote:
It's an interesting topic jy2. I feel like the current metas have fallen into the following categories:

Fliers (and spam them! - more or less just necrons atm) - good at tank hunting and being hard to kill

large masses of infantry to ignore the fliers- good at objective camping and hard to dislodge but vulnerable to template weapons

mech lists - believe it or not, these still are pretty good. gives the infantry lists a hard time but usually get swamped by fliers.

Kind of like a rock paper scissors thing we got going on. What do you guys think?

I agree. In 6th, the rock-papers-scissors-phenomenon has become even more prevalent. Why? Because you are adding 2 elements - flyers/FMC's and allies - that are making armies even more extreme. In 5th, there were primarily deathstars, pure horde and MSU as the extreme builds. Now on top of that, you are adding flyer-based armies and power-combos via allies to the competitive mix. In terms of list building, now it is almost impossible to build a TAC list that can take into account all of these competitive builds. For example, the necron airforce can handle almost all builds but will have trouble against a pure horde that can control the board and limit their movement. Now there's just too many permutations of power builds out there that no single list can accomodate for all. The best they can do is to anticipate what is the more likely competitive build that they will encounter in a competitive environment. And right now, probably the most prevalent competitive tournament army is some form of necron airforce. Players such as Tony Kopach, Hulksmash and Target see this and have opted to build horde lists to counter them as opposed to stockpiling up on flyers themselves.

Mech can still be good. However, a number of factors have reduced their competitiveness to a certain degree. The introduction of Hull Points is both a boon and a curse to mech. It does make fully meched-armies slightly more resilient. However, it also de-buffs certain armies because it has all but rendered venerable, holo-fields, Fortitude, Living Metal and such abilities irrelevant. It's also made land raiders, monoliths and other heavy armor slightly more killable. The limitations on assaulting after disembarking from a vehicle has hurt some armies (i.e. grey knights, space wolves, chaos, orks, dark eldar). The ease of killing vehicles via assault has made it easier for horde-based armies now to take out vehicles. Finally, having to disembark to claim/contest objectives has made it harder to use the vehicles as a protective shell for your troops. However, MSU-type armies still benefit from being fully meched. For them, it's more about the awesome firepower and target saturation than it is about protection and target delivery.

Any advice on how to use Stern's Zone of Banishment at his fully?

Don't,

Zone of Banishment is cute, but it effects your own troops too. And leaving an expensive HQ unit out to dry is just a bad idea all around.

How many meq bodies would you consider a good amount for an 1850 list to be durable enough to combat flyers? I'm talking regular troops but SM so their usually getting their 3+. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

I reckon the most MEQ you could get on the table while still keeping a good list is 50 men; add Coteaz and 2 Dreadknights and you are near 1850pts.

syypher wrote:
How many meq bodies would you consider a good amount for an 1850 list to be durable enough to combat flyers? I'm talking regular troops but SM so their usually getting their 3+. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

60+ bodies, imo.
Coteaz
Inquisitor w tda, psycannon, psychic power
6x 10 strikes w 2 psycannons
2 dreadknight with incinerators
1850
List has tons of shooting and therefore can choose to take down flyers or simply focus on ground presence.

You might consider dropping 5 members on one of the squads to get Psybolts on everyone. Str5 bolters are amazing at dropping just about anything.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You might consider dropping 5 members on one of the squads to get Psybolts on everyone. Str5 bolters are amazing at dropping just about anything.

I prefer extra bodies but that is a personal preference.

Giving up 5 bodies so the other 50 can have Str5 bolters is a pretty good trade off.

To you it may be, to me its just another way of increasing the price of already costly models. Id rather have another 5 marines with 4 stormbolters and a psycannon. Im not a big fan of squad upgrades.

You increase their point cost by 10%, but you increase the likelyhood of wounding T4 by 33%, the likelyhood of wounding T3 by 25%, you gain the ability to glance AV11, and you increase the ability to hurt AV10 by 100%.

Having 5 more bodies is NOT worth that bonus. On an objective level even.

If you do the math, 88 str 5 sb shots does around 38 wounds to T4.
96 str 4 sb shots do 32. You also will have an extra psycannon and 5 extra bodies. I personally dont view the psybolts as necessary. Once again, that is my opinion.

Cougar wrote:
Any advice on how to use Stern's Zone of Banishment at his fully?

Put him in a land raider or stormraven and then assault a unit with a character. Make a challenge and then use Zone. Oh what fun.

I would use Stern in fun, casual games but not competitive ones.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

LValx wrote:

syypher wrote:
How many meq bodies would you consider a good amount for an 1850 list to be durable enough to combat flyers? I'm talking regular troops but SM so their usually getting their 3+. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

60+ bodies, imo.
Coteaz
Inquisitor w tda, psycannon, psychic power
6x 10 strikes w 2 psycannons
2 dreadknight with incinerators
1850
List has tons of shooting and therefore can choose to take down flyers or simply focus on ground presence.

I prefer psybolt on my 10-man squads. Once you go psybolt-spam, you don't go back.

I prefer psybolt on my 10-man squads. Once you go psybolt-spam, you don't go back.

it's pretty addictive especially as alot of T5 and 6 models seem to be popping up with bikers getting good buffs and other big tough MC's.

It's gotten so bad that I've gone all the way to Tau pulse rifles and heavily shopping for cheap necron army <_< ......yes I know I'm a herectic. At least my Tau got a game in finally and did great vs a bunch of T5 / 6 nurgle army and bilkes.

Speaking of bodies on the ground, anyone tried foot purifier lists in a while? I've mostly been using henchmen and now IG blob bodies and need to put together some more GK bodies (have them still in boxes but been busy building crisis suits and stripping paint) to really do foot MEQ justice.

I did foot purifiers before it was cool

They work quite well, especially if you have Grand Strategy and some teliporter units to give you additional mobility.

Players such as Tony Kopach, Hulksmash and Target see this and have opted to build horde lists to counter them as opposed to stockpiling up on flyers themselves.

There are reasons that some top players shun flyers. Flyers are not good at specific missions and that is what tournament play is about. There are numerous ways to deal with flyers and people are adjusting now to 6ed tactics. If you cannot score, take first blood, alpha strike your opponent then your flyers start to become expensive liabilities. I am now playing armies with at least 80 models at 2000 - I use allies sometimes but I find there are lists that can work without allies. GK can field a lot of models if you choose that route.

 felixcat wrote:

Players such as Tony Kopach, Hulksmash and Target see this and have opted to build horde lists to counter them as opposed to stockpiling up on flyers themselves.

There are reasons that some top players shun flyers. Flyers are not good at specific missions and that is what tournament play is about. There are numerous ways to deal with flyers and people are adjusting now to 6ed tactics. If you cannot score, take first blood, alpha strike your opponent then your flyers start to become expensive liabilities. I am now playing armies with at least 80 models at 2000 - I use allies sometimes but I find there are lists that can work without allies. GK can field a lot of models if you choose that route.

IMO it isn't really that they shun flyers. It's really because the armies they like/want to play simply isn't strong with flyers. Tony likes and runs space wolves, who don't have flyers without allies. The grey knights have stormravens but IMHO, those flyers aren't really that efficient compared to the flyers that they will be facing - necron scythes. Besides, they realize the weakness of flyers in competitive play - that they can't score (maybe in particlar missions), contest or claim objectives and table quarters. Thus, they chose to focus on the one component that is necessary in those scenarios instead - one that both strengthens them towards the mission objectives and provides resiliency against enemy flyers - more scoring bodies! They are playing to their strengths instead of their weaknesses, because the more flyers they bring in, the more it weakens them towards scenario objectives. And no matter how many flyers they ally in, they aren't going to win an aerial dogfight with a full-on necron airforce, so why even bother trying?

You summed up my point more eloquently than me but yes - they just don't help win games when fielding certain lists.

LValx wrote:
If you do the math, 88 str 5 sb shots does around 38 wounds to T4.
96 str 4 sb shots do 32. You also will have an extra psycannon and 5 extra bodies. I personally dont view the psybolts as necessary. Once again, that is my opinion.

well, the main thing is what you just worked out is that it does more wounds which is better?

Also the best thing is that now you hurt T5 models and necron flyers (msot annoying army to fight against right now)

So, Having S5 storm bolter is definatly better than having 5 extra marines. When the necrons turn up you jsut gonna sit there and let them shoot your 60 marines or you can have 50 of the shooting back.

obviously I am not including the psycannons but 11 and 12 psycannons hitting on 6s is not gonna be much different. you will get 0.67 extra hit in with your extra psycannon.

Compared to 7.33 glances from psybolt storm bolters. that is 2 flyers alone you got rid off.

 jy2 wrote:
Players such as Tony Kopach, Hulksmash and Target see this and have opted to build horde lists to counter them as opposed to stockpiling up on flyers themselves.

Or in Hulksmash's case he had a foot GK list from 5th edition that works a lot better in 6th. He's had the GK foot Strike horde for some time now. I see your point about flyers. It makes sense, because Necrons do Flyers better or rather they have cheaper and easier access to them while GK has to do Double FOC if we want 6 Stormravens which even then cannot score and there goes about 1230 points into one list before even taking troops or an HQ

I'm trying to make edits to the first page with some more stuff including IG large platoons and the new counter meta strats and I realized that if I cut and paste the first thread, it's up to 30 pages on word @_@....

Trying to fix the font sizes is alot harder than I thought lol...

Is there a maximum size for one post to be? Also I'm trying to make my fonts bigger for the section breaks but the / size command doesn't seem to be working properly. How do I fix that?

 sudojoe wrote:
I'm trying to make edits to the first page with some more stuff including IG large platoons and the new counter meta strats and I realized that if I cut and paste the first thread, it's up to 30 pages on word @_@....

Trying to fix the font sizes is alot harder than I thought lol...

Is there a maximum size for one post to be? Also I'm trying to make my fonts bigger for the section breaks but the / size command doesn't seem to be working properly. How do I fix that?

There isn't a maximum to my knowledge.

To change the font size: [szie=number from 7...24] [/size]


BTW, I mispelled size on purpose.

I got the size in command in as such but I was also using the color command too. I think having them both in there seems to mess it up somehow.. hrm.. what do you guys think? color or size is better header?

Bold/italics go on the very insides.

Then size.

Finally, color goes on the outsides.


For example (tags purposefully mispelled):


[coler=red][szie=24][b_]TEST[/b][/size][/color]


TEST

 jy2 wrote:
Bold/italics go on the very insides.

Then size.

Finally, color goes on the outsides.


For example (tags purposefully mispelled):


[coler=red][szie=24][b_]TEST[/b][/size][/color]


TEST

Awesome! I screwed that up cause I had the color and size in the wrong order. Now it's better looking than ever wmahahahahaha.

In other considerations though, after looking at the fortification rules on page 18 and the dakka thread and even ran it through YMDC, I just can't help but think of the skyshield landing pad giving 3+ cover and then with a liby, you can buff a whole firebase of say purifiers with psycannons to a 2+ cover save.

Seems legit or broken?

Hi guys, maybe the next match of the league at my LGS is vs demons.

This said, I'm planning to get a list which the core is a grandmaster and 2 dreadknights.

It's the heavy psilencer effective vs demons? I mean, 12 shots that hit 8, and wound 4, then they save 1. Mathematicaly is 3 dead demons per turn per psilencer, giving each dread 1 and 3 turns, is 12 dead demons, plus the h. incinerator, plus the later charge.

What do you think?

 sudojoe wrote:

In other considerations though, after looking at the fortification rules on page 18 and the dakka thread and even ran it through YMDC, I just can't help but think of the skyshield landing pad giving 3+ cover and then with a liby, you can buff a whole firebase of say purifiers with psycannons to a 2+ cover save.

Seems legit or broken?

It doesn't give out 3+ cover. There are very explicit rules on how it works. It is basically open terrain, meaning you don't get any cover from it. However, it does give a 4+ Inv if you put it in shielded mode.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DakotaBlue wrote:
Hi guys, maybe the next match of the league at my LGS is vs demons.

This said, I'm planning to get a list which the core is a grandmaster and 2 dreadknights.

It's the heavy psilencer effective vs demons? I mean, 12 shots that hit 8, and wound 4, then they save 1. Mathematicaly is 3 dead demons per turn per psilencer, giving each dread 1 and 3 turns, is 12 dead demons, plus the h. incinerator, plus the later charge.

What do you think?

Rather than building your list aganst daemons, I strongly recommend you build it as a Take-All-Comer's (TAC) list. In that case, forget about the heavy psilencer and just go with the heavy incinerator. Build your army so that it can handle all armies, not just daemons.

I can change the lists for every match, so I can afford building an anti-daemon list.

DakotaBlue wrote:
I can change the lists for every match, so I can afford building an anti-daemon list.

In any case, points are better spent elsewhere other than the psilencer.

It doesn't give out 3+ cover. There are very explicit rules on how it works. It is basically open terrain, meaning you don't get any cover from it. However, it does give a 4+ Inv if you put it in shielded mode.

That's the top of it though, what if you were getting cover from the legs and struts underneath?

Anywayas, not many contributions to this just yet as people just seem unsure here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/484127.page

 sudojoe wrote:

It doesn't give out 3+ cover. There are very explicit rules on how it works. It is basically open terrain, meaning you don't get any cover from it. However, it does give a 4+ Inv if you put it in shielded mode.

That's the top of it though, what if you were getting cover from the legs and struts underneath?

Anywayas, not many contributions to this just yet as people just seem unsure here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/484127.page

The problem here is that the skyshield, ADL, bastion and fortress all fall under the heading of Fortifications. Also, the "fortification" on p.18 is never clearly defined. What exactly makes it a fortification? Does that mean all the above terrain give you 3+? I would say that would be a bit of a stretch. You really have to talk to your opponent about how to play the skyshield as it is somewhat vague. A decent compromise would be to give it a 4+ cover just like aegis, battlements and walls and barricades.

Anyways, that is my intepretation. Whenever a rule is murky, I tend to go with the more conservative intepretation or the intepretation that gives the least advantage.

I'm thinking I'll just leave the 3+ covers debate for another day. Mabye it'll be more relivant for vehicles I dunno lol.

Anyways, after the Nid player quit for necrons in my local area, there's no one playing nids anymore and there seems to be a nice resurgance of nid psyker spam that's definately a unique playstyle.

I'm debating what in the GK's builds would be good vs this kind of playstyle and also target priorities.

iron arm flygrants seems like a tough nut to crack and tyvergons spawning tons of stuff makes it hard for gunlines to survive.

Being flying, our mindstrike missles can't target the nid fliers until they are grounded. Shadows in the warp is really annoying to try and force weapon. I'm almost thinking some brotherhood banner regular terminators might be useful or maybe justicar thawn to get up in there?

While GK's passive defense vs psykers is good, it doesn't stop all the strong nid buffs like warpspeed. Looking for some more expert opinions on the new psyker nids vs GK's matchups.

I don't have much experience with this in 6th so looking at other folks to comment if they want to.

So just back from Gaelcon, one of the big two in Ireland so to speak. Changed up my list a little bit, getting one Teleporter and two Inquisitors in exchange for Coteaz and two Rhinos. And honestly, I missed neither. I think foot works fine in 6th thankfully, and that's something I'll be looking into for Moocon in 3wks. The Terminator Inquisitor with the Psycannon was a boss, only dying one and killing his own weight in enemies thanks to relentless cannon shots, often enough precision.

One dice roll basically cost me 2nd place on the last game, as a Cryptek got back up for the 6th time in 3 turns to contest the only objective I had otherwise guaranteed (the other two were in the thick of the battle where we were fighting for it all). Managed 8th instead, though the field was big enough that I won't complain about it. Flyers didn't take the helm too much as people didn't go overboard on them. There were only 2 full on Cron Air lists, though there was a lot of triple Vendetta around. Guard and Orks were the allies of choice it seemed.

And what I really learned, is Necrons are stupid. In my opinion Crypteks should not have Ever Living, especially when you look at stuff like a unit with 2 Chronos in there with two Overlords where those Chronos use their own re-roll on their own Ever Living roll. It's really silly.

I'll be putting reports up as soon as I get the chance.

Psychic nids are tough for alll MEQs without active psychic defense. Unfortunately even psycannons have a tough time with t8-9 mcs. The best thing to do would probably be massed psycannons with some purifier backup to deal with gargoyles and large gaunt squads. Flying mc's die easily to grounding checks and gk have quantity of fire to force plenty.

 sudojoe wrote:
I'm thinking I'll just leave the 3+ covers debate for another day. Mabye it'll be more relivant for vehicles I dunno lol.

Anyways, after the Nid player quit for necrons in my local area, there's no one playing nids anymore and there seems to be a nice resurgance of nid psyker spam that's definately a unique playstyle.

I'm debating what in the GK's builds would be good vs this kind of playstyle and also target priorities.

iron arm flygrants seems like a tough nut to crack and tyvergons spawning tons of stuff makes it hard for gunlines to survive.

Being flying, our mindstrike missles can't target the nid fliers until they are grounded. Shadows in the warp is really annoying to try and force weapon. I'm almost thinking some brotherhood banner regular terminators might be useful or maybe justicar thawn to get up in there?

While GK's passive defense vs psykers is good, it doesn't stop all the strong nid buffs like warpspeed. Looking for some more expert opinions on the new psyker nids vs GK's matchups.

I don't have much experience with this in 6th so looking at other folks to comment if they want to.

Unfortunately, there are no easy answers for the new psychic nids. You just need to pour a lot of firepower into them and make sure you are focusing on the right units. Try to take out the flyrant and any tervigons first. Those IMO are the most important targets. It is actually fairly easy to ground a flyrant. I also normally bring warding staves in my Purifier or paladin armies to try to hold these monsters in combat. The warding staves will give you a chance to drag the combat out, which is a good thing against an uber-enemy unit. As for the banner, I always bring them in my paladin-star Draigowing armies. 1 is all you really need and then you can walk through almost any tyranid MC like a knife through butter (well, except for the Swarmlord). But the +1A is usually more useful against the majority of the other armies out there.

There is no shortcut against the new nids. It is a battle of attrition. Just make sure your guns will out-shoot tyranid resiliency.

Flying Nids are easy enough to bring down.


Brotherhood Banner terminator squads are a good counter to Lash Whips and SitW. have sword models in BtB with the Tyrant, and Halberd dudes behind. The Halberds don't get their I reduced and you only need one wound to instapop the Tyrant as the Banner bypasses the 3D6 psychic test.

Try to take out the flyrant and any tervigons first. Those IMO are the most important targets.

I'm just concerned as I look, it's really hard to decide what to target when they saturate your front with like 3 of the above in you face by turn 1.5 especially with warp speed and normal edge deployments. Oh and anywhere between 6 to 20 something little guys ready to munch face next turn.

If you had to pick, what would you prioritze? The T9 guy or the spawners?

The Tervigons definitely. In my expereince so far the Flyrant doesn't just barrel into you as he is well aware GK have enough firepower to ground him, so usually my Raven can deal with him in turn 2.

Hey guys,
I'm considering a GK Strike Squad Spam.

How would I best do this?? Just put full Strike Squads in Rhino's, or 5-men squads in Razbacks?

Also, what do you think would be the best HQ choice for them?

As many 10 man squads as you can take with 2 psycannons and psybolts. Rhinos are optional. maybe give half the squads a Rhino.

HQ should be a Divination Librarian or 2. Get those awsome rerolls on your shooting.

It is possible to win a daemon list in turn 1 just by the GKSS psychic power?

Yes, its also a dick move and an army focusing on that is not a good competitive army.

 Grey Templar wrote:
As many 10 man squads as you can take with 2 psycannons and psybolts. Rhinos are optional. maybe give half the squads a Rhino.

HQ should be a Divination Librarian or 2. Get those awsome rerolls on your shooting.

So 10-men squads added with Dreadknights or Psydreads?
And then the Libby (as getting 2 in 1850 is a bit of a stretch).

Actually, how many powers can the Libby roll? 2 (as his Mastery Level), or 1 per power you bought him? And if you just roll the 2, are excess powers lost or do you keep them?
I was actually thinking of Coteaz. Or is the Libby better?

the Librarian has whatever powers he purchases from the GK codex, OR he can swap all the powers he has(except for HH) for a number of rulebook powers equal to his mastery level.

The nice thing is you do that just before the game starts.

So you can buy GK powers, look at the games situation, and then decide to swap out for powers. It gives you flexability because GK powers are pretty good, and cheap.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, its also a dick move and an army focusing on that is not a good competitive army.

Take in account that it's a league where I know the army of my opponent, as he knows mine, and I can change lists for every match, and also the price is 350€ for the winner of the league. I don't mind being a dick

The strategy is 3 GKSS with 3 rhinos, divided in combat squad, with a grandmaster giving them infiltration and 3 dreads just for if some daemon take ground, right?

 Grey Templar wrote:
As many 10 man squads as you can take with 2 psycannons and psybolts. Rhinos are optional. maybe give half the squads a Rhino.

HQ should be a Divination Librarian or 2. Get those awsome rerolls on your shooting.

I'll see you that and raise you this:

2000 points

OM Inquisitor, Psyker (Prescience), Psycannon
OM Inquisitor, Psyker (Prescience), Psycannon
OM Inquisitor, Psyker (Prescience), Psycannon
OM Inquisitor, Psyker (Prescience), Psycannon

5 servo skulls tossed in there somewhere

5x PSYKERS, Rhino
5x PSYKERS, Rhino
(thanks for pointing out that Mystics aren't Psykers, Goddess-Mimicry )

Strike Squad, 2 psycannons, psybolt ammo
Strike Squad, 2 psycannons, psybolt ammo
Strike Squad, 2 psycannons, psybolt ammo
Strike Squad, 2 psycannons, psybolt ammo

Psyfleman Dreadnought
Psyfleman Dreadnought
Psyfleman Dreadnought


Prescience for all four strike squads, and nothing but S5 (or better) shooting. The mystics are for cheap S7 AP2 blasts, yes I know they might die, no, I don't care. This is all I do now.

yeah, but we're only playing 1850 around here (as that's what the tournaments are)

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, its also a dick move and an army focusing on that is not a good competitive army.

And yet you just suggested it to a guy; people say crap like this all the time as Warp Quake is the only good thing about Strike Squads. And no, it isn't a dick move, it's doing what your army does in the plain letter of the rules with no shenanigans whatsoever.

BTW daedalus, where did you get the idea that Mystics have Plasma Cannons?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, its also a dick move and an army focusing on that is not a good competitive army.

And yet you just suggested it to a guy; people say crap like this all the time as Warp Quake is the only good thing about Strike Squads. And no, it isn't a dick move, it's doing what your army does in the plain letter of the rules with no shenanigans whatsoever.

BTW daedalus, where did you get the idea that Mystics have Plasma Cannons?

I think its something to do with the more mystics your S raises by 1 per mystic and ap decrease by 1 per mystic.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hi, guys how sould you deal with a FMC demon list? Currently its the best army in my local GW and I am going there soon so I might have to fight him, will the old purifers 6x 5man 2psycannon in rhino 3x dread autocannon work well against:

1x fate
1x blood thirster
2x demon prince
2x 5man plague bearers

Maybe something else its a 1750 list I only heard it from my friend.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

BTW daedalus, where did you get the idea that Mystics have Plasma Cannons?

Bah, that's what I get for working when I should be listbuilding! Replace mystics with psykers.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, its also a dick move and an army focusing on that is not a good competitive army.

It also doesn't work that well with just strike spam. You can't get enough board coverage and frankly most competitive daemons lists now are very fast. I play daemons too and if someone did that, I'd be fine with it honestly as I got pretty fast FMC's, jump troop flamers, and jetbike screamers now-a-days. I don't mind behing in the back side of things.

It does get impossibly however if you throw some interceptors. You just won't get enough coverage with foot strikes.


As to how to beat FMC daemons flying circus, I'd probably be quite selective with target priority and get them flamers down asap, then probably any FMC's still around as they are usually just one model, often without grenades and at most can vector strike just a few guys. If they have screamers, they can be tough too. Remember you have perferred enemy with shooting at baseline. Use them rerolls. If you got a staff or something in a squad, tarpit that greater daemon if they rush you. storm ravens as dedicated anti-tank can also manuver to get side shots on them daemon engies. Also, play to the objectives. That's the biggest key. FMC often lack troops and daemon troops are pretty fragile now no matter the build. Even plagues are weaker. Take out his troops after flamers if you don't care about the FMC's (i.e. tarpitted)

Fateweaver is probably in there too, if so, I'd still take flamers down first unless they are getting their 4+ reroll by being next to fate and just gun fateweaver down with volume of fire. Even with a rerollable 3++, he'll still fail something eventually. (longest personal streak I had was 32 saves made but I then failed a ld check and died on the 33rd hit )

I'm planning a 3 GKSS squad, combat squad them and cover the most I can of a place with ruins, and let some open space avaible to land, as I can't get every piece of terrain with the GKSS thing, getting 3 dreadnoughts and coteaz near the place I let free for landing, and see what happens next.

His troops will land in only a place, and the dreadnoughts/coteaz freeshot, and GKSS shots in my turn could get rid of almost everything, if not letting them obliterated.

Maybe I swap a GKSS for a Interceptor squad, so I can cover more terrain, as Sudojoe said.

2 gkss, 2 gkss in a rhino each, 2 interceptor squad should cover an inmense terrain.

sudojoe wrote:You just won't get enough coverage with foot strikes.

36" from your deployment zone to the board edge. 6" move, average 4" run, 12" area of effect. Only 14" safe to the other side. If they scatter average is 7" which is very likely into Warp Quake or off the board, especially with bigger units. Shunting a Dreadknight over can also block up some space to dick sideways scattering. Rhinos can get your guys further across the board as well, with a pivot at the start for 2", 6" move, 6" disembark, and average 4" run, for a possible 18" move in, leaving only a 6" safe zone for the Daemons on the other side. BTW, not this all assumes you leave some dudes behind.

Also remember that the main hitters of the Daemon army these days, Flamers, need to drop close to work. If they can't do this then they have to last a turn of mass PE shooting before they can take effect. Screamers though can easily drop miles away and still kill some dudes thanks to Turbo Boost.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The Tervigons definitely. In my expereince so far the Flyrant doesn't just barrel into you as he is well aware GK have enough firepower to ground him, so usually my Raven can deal with him in turn 2.

so what's the next target after the Tervigons? I'd imagine most of my gunline or at least part of it would be fighting the 'gaunts. The hive guards? any mawlocks? the zoies? I'm really having a hard time gauging the threat priority in these kinds of lists.

DakotaBlue wrote:
It is possible to win a daemon list in turn 1 just by the GKSS psychic power?

With only Strikes? No, it isn't possible. To cover the whole board with Warp Quake, you also need at least 3 Interceptor squads that shunt into enemy deployment zone turn 1. It also requires you to have the first turn and succeed in 6 Psychic tests with LD 9 each turn.
And it also requires that your gaming group allows you to chain "Misplaced" mishaps (ie. that when unit gets "Misplaced" result in mishap table and you place it within Warp Quake zone, it mishaps again).

Luide wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:
It is possible to win a daemon list in turn 1 just by the GKSS psychic power?

With only Strikes? No, it isn't possible. To cover the whole board with Warp Quake, you also need at least 3 Interceptor squads that shunt into enemy deployment zone turn 1. It also requires you to have the first turn and succeed in 6 Psychic tests with LD 9 each turn.
And it also requires that your gaming group allows you to chain "Misplaced" mishaps (ie. that when unit gets "Misplaced" result in mishap table and you place it within Warp Quake zone, it mishaps again).

You don't need to cover the board with Warp Quake the make it possible. Hell it's possible for any army to do it if the Daemon players luck is lousy enough.

I think you are mistaking the word possible for probable here.

So someone asked about a Grey Knight Paladin list in the Army List subsection of the forum and someone else responded with these insights regarding equipping Paladins:

2) you will not want that many halberds. Most weapons that ignore your armor save will be striking at INT 1 (maybe 2). You will hit first with swords against anything that ignores your save. Against things that ignore your save, the sword gives you a 4++ save in combat, which is much more reliable than the 5++. Basically, the Halberd is better against things you are not afraid of (power swords) but the sword is better against things you are afraid of (power Fists).

A couple halberds would not be a bad idea, but I would not take all halberds.

A single warding stave might also be very useful in that regard, with the new way wounds are allocated. You can basically put all of the powerfist wounds onto the warding stave guy.

Does everyone concur with his/her opinion?

This is a completely random , but i thought this would be a good place to post this question. I have been considering grey knights for some time, but don't own any models, furthermore i have started to get to grips with 6th edition. So i was wondering, does a Nemesis warding stave give you your 2+ inv for over-watch, don't have my rule-book with me, but I think that it is part of the assault phase?

No, Overwatch doesn't happen while you are in melee.

 Lurker wrote:


So someone asked about a Grey Knight Paladin list in the Army List subsection of the forum and someone else responded with these insights regarding equipping Paladins:

2) you will not want that many halberds. Most weapons that ignore your armor save will be striking at INT 1 (maybe 2). You will hit first with swords against anything that ignores your save. Against things that ignore your save, the sword gives you a 4++ save in combat, which is much more reliable than the 5++. Basically, the Halberd is better against things you are not afraid of (power swords) but the sword is better against things you are afraid of (power Fists).

A couple halberds would not be a bad idea, but I would not take all halberds.

A single warding stave might also be very useful in that regard, with the new way wounds are allocated. You can basically put all of the powerfist wounds onto the warding stave guy.

Does everyone concur with his/her opinion?

I would agree. Competitivly this advice would be applied to Terminators rather then Paladins to the same effect.

Thanks that cleared that up.

 samuele999 wrote:
This is a completely random , but i thought this would be a good place to post this question. I have been considering grey knights for some time, but don't own any models, furthermore i have started to get to grips with 6th edition. So i was wondering, does a Nemesis warding stave give you your 2+ inv for over-watch, don't have my rule-book with me, but I think that it is part of the assault phase?

No it doesn't. Warding Stave specifically says that you have to be in Close Combat to have the 2+ invul. BRB defines 'being in close combat' as having any models of a unit in base to base with an enemy model. If a template scatters onto your guys during CC you can use the Warding Stave due to the FAQ which explicitly allows the warding stave to be used against any wounds, not just CC attacks.

 Lurker wrote:


So someone asked about a Grey Knight Paladin list in the Army List subsection of the forum and someone else responded with these insights regarding equipping Paladins:

2) you will not want that many halberds. Most weapons that ignore your armor save will be striking at INT 1 (maybe 2). You will hit first with swords against anything that ignores your save. Against things that ignore your save, the sword gives you a 4++ save in combat, which is much more reliable than the 5++. Basically, the Halberd is better against things you are not afraid of (power swords) but the sword is better against things you are afraid of (power Fists).

A couple halberds would not be a bad idea, but I would not take all halberds.

A single warding stave might also be very useful in that regard, with the new way wounds are allocated. You can basically put all of the powerfist wounds onto the warding stave guy.

Does everyone concur with his/her opinion?

From what I've seen in this thread, most people prefer Halberds to Swords. Personally I believe they are almost identical in gaming terms, with Swords being better against low INIT armies like Necrons or Orks and Halberds having an edge against MEQ. They're almost too identical to worry about much. I've gone with mostly swords simply because I enjoy painting them more.

As for the warding stave, while nice, it's still very expensive and there is a good chance it will never be used.

To further flush this out, I'm doing the math-hammer version of this theory vs a few different scenarios:

Say 5 man terminator squad with different loadouts (not doing a banner for easier math) let's say 200 points of GK terminators vs say a 10 man tac squad of MEQ with power fist which comes close to the same points.



With Halberds on everyone and no challenge from either side (and assuming no damage from overwatch - just go with me on this first iteration, I'll do one with other factors later)

Terminators - with their 15 attacks on the charge - will have some 80.66% to do at least 4 wounds and 61.8% to do 5 wounds
The surviving MEQ (assuming sarge survives) will get 2 power fist attacks and somewhere around 10-8 attacks(with their bolt pistols+knives) back doing: 44.23% to do at least 1 wound from the squad and 61.32% of a wound from the fist.


Terminators with swords all around - still 4-5 wounds at 80.66% and 61.80% respectively
MEQ with 2 power fist attacks and 18 normal attacks - 48.67% of a wound from the fist and 65.04% of at least 1 wound and 27% of doing 2 wounds

Overall - decreased fist wounds by 20% but increase in squad wounds by around 20%. Essentially breaking even.

Pretty clear then the way to solve this is by issuing challenges.
Halberds on everyone else, and sword on the sergeant should give you the best results as you just get a flat 20% improvement in wounds taken by the terminators.

Factor in hammer hand: (and assuming that you don't perils and kill your sword bearing justicar...)

All halberds and no challenge
Terms - 88.53% to do 5 wounds 74.86% to do 6 wounds, and 55.94% to do 7 wounds
MEQ - Sarge - 61.32% of 1 wound, Surviving squad (4 to 2 men left) gets 4-8 hits back resulting in 20.83% of 1 wound (2 men survive) to 37.32% (4 men survive)

All swords - Still the same as above - 88.53% for 5 wounds 74.86% to do 6 wounds, and 55.94% to do 7 wounds
MEQ - all get to swing so 18 normal attacks - 48.67% of a wound from the fist and 65.04% of at least 1 wound and 27% of doing 2 wounds from the squad

Fairly obvious after looking at the data and goes along with conceptual thinking anyway -

Overall, TLDR version - hammerhand with the squad when you can unless you need to force weapon or something and the best loadout will be:

halberds on everyone else and a sword on your justicar issuing and getting an accepted challenge leading to at least 20% reduction in wounds from the fist/claw/axe (possibly just negating it all together), and a 45% reduction in wounds from the squad depletion.

Now this is just a barebones comparison of course. All sorts of scenarios then can happen when you throw in some IC's, banners, or perils. If I get bored enough, I'll go model that but in general without doing the math, I don't tend to run banner in my 5 man squads cause I find it too expensive and hard to paint (I only got one banner painted dag nabit!)


Reverse the charge *MEQ charging you, I can't imagine why but w/e* and you'll get -

All swords and hammerhand - 74.17% to do 4 wounds, 50.52% to do 5 wounds
MEQ does - 63.23% to do 1 fist wound and 19.56% to do 2 fist wounds, and with their 27 barebones attacks - 79.33% to do 1 wound, and 45.77% to do 2 wounds

All halberds and hammerhand - 74.17% to do 4 wounds, 50.52% to do 5 wounds
MEQ does - 75.95% to do 1 fist wound and 32.08% to do 2 fist wounds, and 50.37% to do 1 wound and 14.57% to do 2 wounds


12.72~12.52% reduction in fist wounds and gain of 28.96% to 31.2% in MEQ wounds going from all halberds to all swords. Still of course halberds for the squad and sword for the justicar. The results are just more pronounced the more halberd attacks you get.

Would also recommend considering that overwatch by something like 19 rapid fire bolters + sarge bolt pistol will give you 30.41% chance to lose a terminator too. (hopefully your storm bolters would do their thing and score you 80.60% chance of 1 wound and 46.02% of 2 wounds to decrease that to 24.89% to lose a terminator on average)

Just to be totally complete, I redid the math with challenges completely figured with overwatch calculated in giving the terminators the charge and assuming that shooting was completely ineffective for both sides (though realistically, you're probably assaulting an 8 to 9 man squad and have a 25% to be swinging with 4 man terminator squad but that's harder to math out)

Using optimal outcome loadout with 4 halberds and a sword on the justicar and accepting challenge along with a passed hammerhand:

Halberds - 87.1% of 4 wounds, 70.47% of 5 wounds, and 48.36% of 6 wounds
surviving bolter marines will range between 44.23% chance of wound , 37.32%, and 29.55% of doing 1 wound back
sword term in challenge - 83.7% of at least 1 wound, 43.08% of at least 2 wounds (like for Nobs)
power fist sarge has 16.3% chance to swing his 2 attacks and thus scoring 48.67% of a wound from the fist which works out to be around 8% of the time overall give or take....

Edit: I'll do some more math later to see where to put the hammer but I suspect just one any one of the toons. Probably behind the halberds as a gut reaction but not sure if good idea or not due to potential pile in failures.

The thing about the swords is, they're never really the optimal solution, they're a half measure between Halberds and Hammers with either choice being superior in its own niche.

For example, against a squad of MEQ the Halberds win, you challenge and kill the Powerfist Sergeant, kill the others while being forced to roll fewer armor saves in return.

Against a squad of TEQ, likely all armed with Powerfists or Thunderhammers, the Hammers win because more important than the 4++ save is actually being able to hurt the enemy squad.

So personally I mix 3 Halberds and 2 Hammers to cover my bases, operating under the idea that I don't want to actually get into combat with the TEQ but that I should have some capability to kill 2+ targets (and vehicles!) and then for the MEQs that I would happily engage, Halberds are superior and a nice help against other targets and often when hoping for a Force Weapon Instant Death (e.g. MCs)

I just find that the Sword's best situation is fighting a 3+ AP2 Model, which relatively infrequently happens and is taken care of nearly just as well by a challenging Halberd as a challenging sword, whereas Halberds and Hammers have many varied uses, plus some unusual ones. For example if you had to pit your Terminators/Paladins against a NDK, the swords would make little impact while the Halberds let you pray for a Force Weapon wound before he massacres you and the Hammers could ping some wounds while the Halberds die.

hey guys , the next Saturday its the local RTT here in Colombia, its at 1999+1 points and this is the list I've been thinking to field.

coteaz

OX inquisitor
rad & psyco nades
psyker
servoarmor
plasma syphon

7 terminators
2 hammers
2 swords
1 halberd/ justicar
banner
stave
psycannon

strikers
2 psycannons
psybolts
MC hammer
Rhino

strikers
2 psycannons
psybolts
MC hammer
Rhino

henchmen
6 psykers
3 plasma cannon servitors
2 warriors w/bolter
crusader


henchmen
6 psykers
5 warriors w/bolter
crusader

landraider crusader
psybolts
MM

dreadknight
H incinerator
sword

vindicare

I run the OX inquisitor with the termies inside the LRC, and coteaz goes in the henchmen squad with servitors.
whats your opinion guys, what should I change, any tactics I should use? .

note: the only miniatures that I own and that aren't in that list are two dreadnoughts 3 termies draigo and crowe (profile picture ). and I'm very afraid of flyers.

Well with the models you have you can make some work, but you may have your work cut out for you.

That being said, drop the Land Raider for the two Dreads. Drop the Warrior block and add in the last 3 Terminators (I hope one of them has a Psycannon). Switch the Hammers to regular dudes (you don't want to lose your hammer to Perils). f you have any points left, get Psybolts on squads.

Make sure to use double Divination.

I was thinking on dropping the land raider and getting ten palaladins instead, but like the idea of the 2 dreadnoughts and the footslogging terminators, what do you think?
and which is the warrior block?

What is Servo armor?

oops, in the spanish codex it's servoarmor (servoarmadura) instead of power armor .

Does anyone use rhinos or razorbacks anymore, after playing a foot list for a while I feel my 6 rhino/razorbacks are not going to come back into service for a while. Just to easy to kill and for mobility I just have a large squad of interceptors. Thoughts?

I was using Rhinos still for awhile but I've slowly dropped them all one by one for a simply reason; I only ended up using them as pesky road blocks (which they were good at) as my Troops didn't end up needing them, so all they were usually doing is giving up Frist Blood too easily.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I was using Rhinos still for awhile but I've slowly dropped them all one by one for a simply reason; I only ended up using them as pesky road blocks (which they were good at) as my Troops didn't end up needing them, so all they were usually doing is giving up Frist Blood too easily.

Yeah thats kind of where I was going to lol. Was thinking of selling all mine to get some money for some more pagk's and a second dreadknight. Just want to know if I should hold onto them for later use or not

You should never sell them. The meta changes all the time, and something could come along in a future Codex that makes it better to hole up in Rhinos. And of course in 3 and a half years there'll be a new edition.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You should never sell them. The meta changes all the time, and something could come along in a future Codex that makes it better to hole up in Rhinos. And of course in 3 and a half years there'll be a new edition.

If daemons keep up, you'll want to hide in your boxes for a bit ^^

Not really. Whe it comes down to Daemons and Grey Knights who gets the first turn usually wins the game in my experience. And if the Daemons go first and still get a bad scatter that stops the Flamers from getting into range then they can be on the downhill from there, as they cannot handle mass S5 PE shooting.

Besides with their movement Flamers and Screamers together can easily surround your Rhinos and wreck them so the unit inside is destroyed.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Not really. Whe it comes down to Daemons and Grey Knights who gets the first turn usually wins the game in my experience. And if the Daemons go first and still get a bad scatter that stops the Flamers from getting into range then they can be on the downhill from there, as they cannot handle mass S5 PE shooting.

Besides with their movement Flamers and Screamers together can easily surround your Rhinos and wreck them so the unit inside is destroyed.

Ah dice rolling cheese. Assuming that both players are on the same level I'll agree.
I hardly ever risk flamers for a turn 1 strike unless you give me something juicy.
I don't run the typical spam of triple 9. I like my Flying monkeys too much.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You should never sell them. The meta changes all the time, and something could come along in a future Codex that makes it better to hole up in Rhinos. And of course in 3 and a half years there'll be a new edition.

I'm also not using too many transports anymore but as another aspect of this game has proven is that if you spam enough, it's still somewhat effective. The guard chimera wall spam has still won me quite a few games this edition. The lack of glancing stuns/shakens and AV12 ignoring Str 5 has been quite useful in just picking apart infantry blobs and making them run away with psyker squads. Even with deny the witch.

Also the last 1500 point tourny JY2 went to had a HB razor spam henchmen 1500 GK army doing fairly well so it's not completely useless. If you only run like 1-2, then I'd almost say don't bother. Run like 8 of them? Still somewhat effective as long as you target correctly.

 sudojoe wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You should never sell them. The meta changes all the time, and something could come along in a future Codex that makes it better to hole up in Rhinos. And of course in 3 and a half years there'll be a new edition.

I'm also not using too many transports anymore but as another aspect of this game has proven is that if you spam enough, it's still somewhat effective. The guard chimera wall spam has still won me quite a few games this edition. The lack of glancing stuns/shakens and AV12 ignoring Str 5 has been quite useful in just picking apart infantry blobs and making them run away with psyker squads. Even with deny the witch.

Also the last 1500 point tourny JY2 went to had a HB razor spam henchmen 1500 GK army doing fairly well so it's not completely useless. If you only run like 1-2, then I'd almost say don't bother. Run like 8 of them? Still somewhat effective as long as you target correctly.

Right.

I think the way to play currently is to either don't bring your rides or to bring a lot of them. MSU still works. As a matter of fact, some may say that MSU mech-spam has gotten even better because now you can't stop them from shooting just with a glance (or with shaken/stunned results as well). While this doesn't affect the GK's as much because we've got Fortitude, it does make non-GK mech-spam armies better in terms of more consistent offense. Sure, you're risking First Blood and VP missions every time, but VP missions are only 1 in 6 and the combined firepower of your army over time is usually enough to make up for the First Blood disadvantage in a MSU build.

This is sort of old news, but I see that Blackmoor came in third at the Bay Area Open in September using Grey Knights. Given that he said Paladins didn't take that much of a hit, I am curious to know what kind of list he played. Does anyone know?

I don't think he was using Paladins, although I am not 100% on that.

whoadirty wrote:
This is sort of old news, but I see that Blackmoor came in third at the Bay Area Open in September using Grey Knights. Given that he said Paladins didn't take that much of a hit, I am curious to know what kind of list he played. Does anyone know?

This was his list:


HQ

Draigo

Troops

10 Paladins w/4 Psycannons, 2 Hammers, 4 Halberds, 3 Swords, Brotherhood Banner

10 Grey Knight Strike Squad w/2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo

Fast Attack

9 Grey Knight Interceptors w/2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammunition

Justicar w/Demonhammer

Heavy Support

Dreadnought w/2 Twin-Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition

Dreadnought w/2 Twin-Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition



BTW, the BAO was back in March under 5th Edition.

 jy2 wrote:


BTW, the BAO was back in March under 5th Edition.

Thanks jy2. I pulled the wrong date off of Frontline Gaming's site. Makes sense why I couldn't find any posts about in on Dakka in September or October haha.

jdjamesdean wrote:Ah dice rolling cheese. Assuming that both players are on the same level I'll agree.
I hardly ever risk flamers for a turn 1 strike unless you give me something juicy.
I don't run the typical spam of triple 9. I like my Flying monkeys too much.

When they come down is irrelevant, that Warp Quake will still likely be there, and if you want to delay them in the hopes of avoiding it, I can't think of an opponent who would be displeased.

sudojoe wrote:Also the last 1500 point tourny JY2 went to had a HB razor spam henchmen 1500 GK army doing fairly well so it's not completely useless. If you only run like 1-2, then I'd almost say don't bother. Run like 8 of them? Still somewhat effective as long as you target correctly.

I still wouldn't do it (and especially with flimsy Henchmen). Mech SPAM has too many bad match ups under the new edition compared to foot lists. The problem is while they can shoot a little bit longer, they die much quicker, and resilience is a key element. There is of course the fact that you cannot score or deny from within them, they cannot deny themselves, and once again First Blood; saying the 1 in 6 Kill Point mission mitigates this all depends on your areas tournament packs. Over here we use a 20-0 system divided between Primary (8pts), Secondary (6pts) and old style VPs (6pts). So Secondary objectives and killing easy stuff is still important. It's also dependent on the meta. It seems in some parts of the US it is still working, but to note, is that possibly because most people are still using it? Over on this side of the pond it's not working out so well.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I still wouldn't do it (and especially with flimsy Henchmen). Mech SPAM has too many bad match ups under the new edition compared to foot lists. The problem is while they can shoot a little bit longer, they die much quicker, and resilience is a key element. There is of course the fact that you cannot score or deny from within them, they cannot deny themselves, and once again First Blood; saying the 1 in 6 Kill Point mission mitigates this all depends on your areas tournament packs. Over here we use a 20-0 system divided between Primary (8pts), Secondary (6pts) and old style VPs (6pts). So Secondary objectives and killing easy stuff is still important. It's also dependent on the meta. It seems in some parts of the US it is still working, but to note, is that possibly because most people are still using it? Over on this side of the pond it's not working out so well.

Actually, I don't see a lot of people here in the US running pure MSU-mech-spam. At the tournament where I went (60+ players), only 1 person was running true MSU - the GK player - and he did very well (2nd place behind me). Most other people were running semi-mech and foot lists primarily. Another player who did well with semi-MSU GK's is Target, though he combined mech-GK with an IG-blob. I believe he won a GT with them (maybe Battle for Salvation?). The thing is, a lot of people are perceiving mech-spam to be uncompetitive. I feel that they can be just as competitive as before, despite the "nerf" to vehicles in this Edition.

 jy2 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I still wouldn't do it (and especially with flimsy Henchmen). Mech SPAM has too many bad match ups under the new edition compared to foot lists. The problem is while they can shoot a little bit longer, they die much quicker, and resilience is a key element. There is of course the fact that you cannot score or deny from within them, they cannot deny themselves, and once again First Blood; saying the 1 in 6 Kill Point mission mitigates this all depends on your areas tournament packs. Over here we use a 20-0 system divided between Primary (8pts), Secondary (6pts) and old style VPs (6pts). So Secondary objectives and killing easy stuff is still important. It's also dependent on the meta. It seems in some parts of the US it is still working, but to note, is that possibly because most people are still using it? Over on this side of the pond it's not working out so well.

Actually, I don't see a lot of people here in the US running pure MSU-mech-spam. At the tournament where I went (60+ players), only 1 person was running true MSU - the GK player - and he did very well (2nd place behind me). Most other people were running semi-mech and foot lists primarily. Another player who did well with semi-MSU GK's is Target, though he combined mech-GK with an IG-blob. I believe he won a GT with them (maybe Battle for Salvation?). The thing is, a lot of people are perceiving mech-spam to be uncompetitive. I feel that they can be just as competitive as before, despite the "nerf" to vehicles in this Edition.

I don't think it's uncompetitive, as everything has it's auto-lose match-ups, I just think mech SPAM can have a few more than normal, and so depending on your local meta you may be running a gambit, especially with all the Necrons around.

MSU may not be as dominating as it was in last edition due to the subtle vehicular "nerfs" in 6th. However, MSU-mech-spam (and in particular, MSU Coteaz-henchmen builds or even mech Purifiers) is still very strong. As a matter of fact, I still feel that it is an upper-tier army. Despite its many nerfs - vehicles easier to kill, can't claim objectives while troops embarked, can't assault after disembarking and can't contest objectives - MSU is still good and let me tell you why.


1. Because 6E is primarily a shooting game. The greatest strength of MSU mech-spam is its firepower. Now, that's gotten even better. Although it is easier to kill vehicles, it is much harder to stop them from shooting due to the new glance rules. Moreover, it can still shoot despite conditions that would prevent it from doing so back in 5E - shaken, stunned, moving at cruising speeds, etc. Also, MSU troops can also move and still fire heavy weapons (or go-to-ground and still fire!). And then there's Overwatch....

2. It's firepower doesn't degrade as quickly over time due to its redundancy and firepower. Ideally, it's a simple game of numbers. Kill 1 unit in a normal army (let's say with an average of 10 units) and it's firepower drops by 10%. Kill 1 unit in a MSU army (let's say an average of 20 units), and it's firepower has only dropped by 5%. But that's only half the story. An MSU army can easily have 2x the firepower of a normal army. Thus, for every 1 MSU unit you kill, the MSU army can potentially wipe out 2 units from the normal army. Thus, in the example above, the normal army may perhaps kill 1 MSU unit. However, in return the MSU army will kill 2 regular units. Thus, MSU firepower has dropped by 5% (1 out of 20 units). On the other hand, the regular army has plummeted by 20% (2 out of 10)!!! The actual damage dished out my an MSU army is about 4 to1! Of course, these numbers are all theoritical but in actual practice, the normal firepower from a regular army will degrade much more quickly than from a MSU army in a sustained firefight.

3. Victory Points scenarios isn't as bad as most would think. They had this same problem back in 5th with Kill Points. Yet they were still able to win consistently in KP scenarios (well, maybe except for Dark Eldar....but to be fair, they only had this problem mainly against other MSU-type shooty armies). The reason? See #2 above. While you may be able to beat them in VP's, they've got the ability to table you in return. That's how DE used to win despite actually giving up more KP's than their opponents.

4. There are some minor benefits to mech armies in 6E besides the improvement to their shooting. Every vehicle being able to move flat-out means that MSU armies have gotten faster and more mobile. There's also little tricks like disembarking a unit, then firing with that unit and then moving the vehicle flat-out to screen out the unit from shooting and assault. If the vehicle moves at cruising, the squad inside and snap-fire.


Now I am not saying that MSU-mech is as good as it used to be in 5th. It's taken a slight hit in this edition. However, the biggest strength of a MSU-mech army - its shooting - has gotten even stronger. And if an army has good shooting, then it will always be competitive. In the case of MSU, I think it can be still a very competitive build even despite the nerfs. I'm also not implying that assault is dead. Far from it, assault has improved as well and many of my armies are assault-based (with elements of shooting). However, assault-based armies tend to be less balanced than shooty-based ones. You can still build a decent army based on assault, but IMO the more balanced TAC builds will be based on a foundation of shooting.

what do you guys see as your better MSU options lately?

purifiers in rhinos?

minimal henchmen in razorbacks and HB?

AC razors?

LC+plasma razors?

The AV12 chimeras wall?

10 Purifiers in a chimera with psycannons and coteaz? (go go 5 fire points @_@)

something else?

jy2; you are right about their shooting being better, and it is nice to see someone who acknowledges that 6th edition is about shooting. However I reckon the extra bodies and extra shots you get for 50pts is a better investment overall, or at least it is for me. To each their own I guess, it certainly seems we're not in total disagreement, however we are coming from different backgrounds with a different perspective on this one.

This is the great thing about our Codex; normally you argue your point thinking the alternative is bad outright choice, but in our book there are so many options that work, even if some are better than others.

Low AV Mech Spam is all but dead. There is a very simple reason for this: Necrons. Scarabs and Wraiths both chew through light AV so easily it is absurd. Flyers are essentially RazorSpam but better in every possible way. They will essentially be guaranteed the alpha strike. 1 Tesla destructor by itself is nearly enough to take out a Razor/Rhino. When 6 show up in a turn and Death Rays go off, razors drop like flies. This army isn't uncommon. For that reason alone I don't think its worth it to spam AV11. A few here and there is alright but I wouldnt take a list that solely packed 5x marines + razorback/rhino. Target has the right idea by supplementing with a Blob.

LValx wrote:
Low AV Mech Spam is all but dead. There is a very simple reason for this: Necrons. Scarabs and Wraiths both chew through light AV so easily it is absurd. Flyers are essentially RazorSpam but better in every possible way. They will essentially be guaranteed the alpha strike. 1 Tesla destructor by itself is nearly enough to take out a Razor/Rhino. When 6 show up in a turn and Death Rays go off, razors drop like flies. This army isn't uncommon. For that reason alone I don't think its worth it to spam AV11. A few here and there is alright but I wouldnt take a list that solely packed 5x marines + razorback/rhino. Target has the right idea by supplementing with a Blob.

I did like his list a lot, even if I wouldn't use it myself.

Let me just add my own observation to this, from my battle report.

 jy2 wrote:
Flyers have definitely changed the game currently. They are really good units and the chances are high that you need to deal with them in competitive play. Now when building your list (for competitive play), you need to consider how you are going to deal with flyers. I think there are effectively 2 ways of dealing them without resorting to tailoring your lists specifically to fight them. Because if you tailor your list, then you will be at a disadvantage against the other competitive armies that you may well see at tournaments. Basically, my perspective of flyers is how would a Take-All-Comer's (TAC) army deal with them?

1. Bring a lot of shooting with you. Fight fire with fire. However, certain armies (daemons, tyranids, orks, certain MEQ builds, etc.) will not be able to do this.

2. For those armies who just don't have the firepower to deal with flyers, then you need resiliency of units. Bring lots of bodies or lots of resilient tanks/units. These type of armies should be able to absorb the firepower of flyer armies while trying to kill off their ground forces. Basically, due to the lack of firepower, you are almost forced to ignore the flyers for the most part and hope that your list can outlast their offense. That doesn't mean that you won't have the tools to take down flyers, but it just means you won't be able to take them down efficiently. So just focus on killing everything else on the ground.

The best lists IMO will combine both #1 and #2 - good firepower with a resilient ground-base unit. In this regard, that is why we are starting to see more and more IG blob squads as allies in competitive play. They are the resilient unit to help anchor down shooty armies.

You guys are in for a treat.


In my newest battle report, I am testing out a fully meched-GK list. It's not really MSU, but I am trying to combination of mech + massed bodies. Report should probably be done by Thurs or Friday.


2.5K Epidemius Nurgle Marines vs Mechanized Grey Knights

Are you playing with yourself again Jim? Lol

how is playing against yourself a treat for anyone? its dull. Please do more 2k games and play against some real opponents.

Sometimes, it's not easy to find the right opponent with the right list. Or for that matter, sometimes I can't even find an opponent when I go to my LGS. Anyways, if anything this game saves me some time. Otherwise, I'd have to play 2 actual games. But I do it primarily because I have a curiousity that needs to be scratched and no one else can do that for me.

So I figured I could drop this list by you guys.

I got a local 1850 one day tourney coming up, and I was trying to find a way to combine the guards blob and a quasi Paladin star, and this is what I came up with.

Coteaz

10 Strikes w/2 psycannons, hammer, psybolt
10 Strikes w/2 psycannons, hammer, psybolt
10 Strikes w/2 psycannons, hammer, psybolt

10 Paladins w/4 Psycannons, Psybolt

Commissar w/Power Axe

Platoon Command

40 Man Blob Squad w/4 Power Axes

I think I have a couple points left over, but overall, how does this look? Basic idea is to probably combat squad the Pallies and probably deep strike them to put pressure on my opponents back field or hunt down troublesome things like Russes or Manticores. Coteaz hangs out with the Strikes to help increase their effectiveness and what have you.

Basically, it's this or Target's list. Whichever!

I'm not seeing what the IG allies are bringing to the table besides bodies. Maybe give them some Meltaguns.

Them being a difficult rock to budge is enough of a reason to bring them in my mind. Whatever objective they want they probably have.

Dorksim wrote:
So I figured I could drop this list by you guys.

I got a local 1850 one day tourney coming up, and I was trying to find a way to combine the guards blob and a quasi Paladin star, and this is what I came up with.

Coteaz

10 Strikes w/2 psycannons, hammer, psybolt
10 Strikes w/2 psycannons, hammer, psybolt
10 Strikes w/2 psycannons, hammer, psybolt

10 Paladins w/4 Psycannons, Psybolt

Commissar w/Power Axe

Platoon Command

40 Man Blob Squad w/4 Power Axes

I think I have a couple points left over, but overall, how does this look? Basic idea is to probably combat squad the Pallies and probably deep strike them to put pressure on my opponents back field or hunt down troublesome things like Russes or Manticores. Coteaz hangs out with the Strikes to help increase their effectiveness and what have you.

Basically, it's this or Target's list. Whichever!

It's not bad. Though the problem with it is that those paladins aren't scoring. That just makes it that much easier for your opponents to ignore - a slow super-expensive unit that isn't scoring. They are actually a "distraction unit" in this army so I wouldn't invest that many points into them. Also, give your guardsmen a little tank-hunting capability with meltaguns. That'll make them actually scary and dangerous to mech armies rather than a unit that can be ignored.

Here's my recommendation:


Coteaz

10 Strikes w/2 psycannons, hammer, psybolt
10 Strikes w/2 psycannons, hammer, psybolt
10 Strikes w/2 psycannons, hammer, psybolt
5 Warrior Henchmen w/3 plasmas
5 Warrior Henchmen w/3 plasmas
5 Warrior Henchmen w/3 meltas
7 Paladins w/2 Psycannons, Psybolt

Commissar w/Power Axe

Platoon Command

40 Man Blob Squad w/4 Power Axes & 4 Meltas


You should still have 15-pts leftover.

Only problem I see with that list is that it is very one dimensional; if the opponent can deal with one unit it can deal with any of the others. Purifiers instead of Paladins for instance would make it better as they keep the 4 Psycannons but add some much needed anti-horde. This is another reason that Dreadknights are so popular, because they take something completely different to deal with than Strikes for example.

I decided to scrap that previous idea. Just because I felt like I just had to few units. I dunno, I feel more comfortable when I have more units to play with I guess.

Either way, came up with something else. Took some ideas from suggestions and came up with this!

Coteaz

10 Strikes w/2 Psycannon, Hammer Psybolt

10 Strikes w/2 Psycannon, Hammer Psybolt

10 Strikes w/2 Psycannon, Hammer Psybolt

3 Acolytes w/ Psyback

3 Acolytes w/ Psyback

3 Acolytes w/ Psyback

10 Purifiers w/4 Psycannons, Psybolt, 2 Hammers, 4 Halbreds

Commissar w/Power Axe

Platoon Command

50 Man Blob w/5 Melta Bombs and Power Axe

Aegis Defence Line

Points: 1842

This leaves me with 8 points with not a whole lot to do, maybe I will scrap together a Mortar and try to snipe some special weapons or something. Either way I am not sure how I feel about this list, but I guess a foot based list with a Defence line seems like a good idea. And this is all based on the fact that I can find an Aegis Defence line in time for this weekend.

Also, I don't want to feel like I am ignoring you jy2, but at the point I don't have any guardsmen models built with special weapons nor do I have the bits to do it by the weekend. So unfortunatly I have to avoid that. Trust me, I would love the melta, but c'est la vie.

Does this list look better? I feel like there is a lot more output.

I really should stop flooding the thread with army lists.

That list is great. You dont need meltaguns in the blob. I would however take ~20 Krak Grenades over those meltabombs. Statistically it'll do more damage to vehicle lines and cost less. You should be able to do quite a bit of damage with that list if played correctly. It is basically Gonyo's list, he placed high at NOVA and won BFS with something very similar. I've also been testing out something in a similar vein and it is almost TOO good. You won't make any friends, that is damn sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, I'd argue that 20 Krak grenades is infinitely more scary to any mech line than 4 Meltaguns.

I don't know where I would find the 20 points to get krak grenades. And as sad as it may seem, the idea of coming up with some plan as to who has grenades and who doesn't sounds horrible

drop the meltabombs.

My reasoning for the meltabombs is that they are going to have the hardest time dealing with a Land Raider that drives up in their face.

It's the lesser of two evils and I figure I have enough str 4 attacks that I can at least damage something with rear AV 10 and not have to worry about kraking it to death. Meltabombs at least keep Land Raiders honest.

Dorksim wrote:

Also, I don't want to feel like I am ignoring you jy2, but at the point I don't have any guardsmen models built with special weapons nor do I have the bits to do it by the weekend. So unfortunatly I have to avoid that. Trust me, I would love the melta, but c'est la vie.

No worries. Just a suggestion, but only if you like it and have the models for it.

Dorksim wrote:
I decided to scrap that previous idea. Just because I felt like I just had to few units. I dunno, I feel more comfortable when I have more units to play with I guess.

Either way, came up with something else. Took some ideas from suggestions and came up with this!

Coteaz

10 Strikes w/2 Psycannon, Hammer Psybolt

10 Strikes w/2 Psycannon, Hammer Psybolt

10 Strikes w/2 Psycannon, Hammer Psybolt

3 Acolytes w/ Psyback

3 Acolytes w/ Psyback

3 Acolytes w/ Psyback

10 Purifiers w/4 Psycannons, Psybolt, 2 Hammers, 4 Halbreds

Commissar w/Power Axe

Platoon Command

50 Man Blob w/5 Melta Bombs and Power Axe

Aegis Defence Line

Points: 1842

Do you have a quad-gun? Is so, then you might as well add it to your army. You're a little light on AA and I have a feeling you are going to see a lot of those baleflamer heldrakes.

Also, be careful that you don't overload your purifiers (like they are right now). It's a very expensive unit that will just get torrent off as easily as any of your strikers. I'd drop psybolt and the hammers. Keep the psycannons and the halberds. In their current configuration, I guarantee that they are going to be the first unit to get shot off the board.

Well this list may be a moot point as my shoddy little game store doesn't seem to ever carry an Aegis, which makes me sad. So my plan is to potentially scratchbuild one between now and Saturday.

And as far as I know, not many people are running around with Baledrakes or any amount of fliers in my part of the world. At least there were not a month or two a go last time I went to a tournament in this town, so I don't expect a huge influx of them. Either way, as I have no real other way of implementing AA I don't have much of a choice.

I dropped the psybolt and hammers from my Purifiers and used the points to buy 5 flamers for the Guardsmen. Leaving me with 4 points to do as I wish I spose. Decent compromise?