Our wallets feed them

To be fair, they do have a lot more overheads then a lot of other miniature companies.

Their models are manufactured in the UK, which would put there prices up a little bit. (Just bought a 50 au dollar Tamiya tank, see it's made in the Philippines , flames of war is made in Malaysia).

Plus they have to operate a bunch of stores, while most other companies don't. (imagine the insurance overheads of all those 7 yr olds hanging about).

However, I think that the recent price rises and corporate practices are pretty annoying, unjustified and will only hurt the company in the long term.

I didn't mind paying the prices 2 years ago, but now it's getting silly.

MadMarkMagee wrote:
Plus they have to operate a bunch of stores, while most other companies don't. (imagine the insurance overheads of all those 7 yr olds hanging about).

Which is a good reason to drop them and re-evaluate their pricing structure to be competitive in independant stores with competing games. Using their stores as an excuse only means they're what needs to go.

MadMarkMagee wrote:
However, I think that the recent price rises and corporate practices are pretty annoying, unjustified and will only hurt the company in the long term.

I didn't mind paying the prices 2 years ago, but now it's getting silly.

The price increases are not new. They've been happening at least since they went public, and I couldn't say if it went on before then because I simply don't remember that far back.

MadMarkMagee wrote:
However, I think that the recent price rises and corporate practices are pretty annoying, unjustified and will only hurt the company in the long term.

I didn't mind paying the prices 2 years ago, but now it's getting silly.

The price increases are not new. They've been happening at least since they went public, and I couldn't say if it went on before then because I simply don't remember that far back.

I know, but its gotten to a point where I won't spend any substantially large amount of money on things.

I wonder how much the company is worth... ? The hobbyists could buy it ! Everyone on Dakka Dakka could go out and buy a 100 dollars worth of shares. It would benefit us all in the long term, it could be run only to break even, as to guarantee cheap space marines. Though I'm being silly now .

nah, the company would fail almost instantly if we bought it. Too many conflicting opinions.

 ThouShallNotHeal wrote:
nah, the company would fail almost instantly if we bought it. Too many conflicting opinions.

I'm not saying we should actually medal much with the artistic direction and designers.

Anyway, unless there are a lot of rich crazy people on Dakka, I don't think my suggestion is ever going to happen. Ignore The share price is 788 pounds atm


Edit: shares worth 7.88 pounds, misunderstanding uk currency.

There are 7.2 billion shares atm.

They also only have about a 10 percent profit margin atm.

Anyway this is quite interesting...

http://au.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=GAW.L

http://au.finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=GAW.L

Any accountants out there correct me if this post is rubbish or I've misunderstood some economics jargon.

I think it's pence.

The share prices are in pence not pounds, they are £7.88 each

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The share prices are in pence not pounds, they are £7.88 each

Then why does it say 788.38?

Weird, So I wouldn't do this I checked out qantas and that's listed as "1.80" or something, so I assumed...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MadMarkMagee wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
The share prices are in pence not pounds, they are £7.88 each

Then why does it say 788.38?

Weird, So I wouldn't do this I checked out qantas and that's listed as "1.80" or something, so I assumed...

Edit: Says down the bottom, "Currency in GBp". Would assume that means that "788" are pounds. Smaller companies are usually divided up into bigger lumps?

Edit Again. Your probably right.

Nah, the hint's probably the lower case p - for pence.

lmfao I dunno, 788 pounds sounds right for anything GW

 ThouShallNotHeal wrote:
lmfao I dunno, 788 pounds sounds right for anything GW

haha, No the price is 7.88 pounds. Don't know why they list it like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My Mistake

MadMarkMagee wrote:
To be fair, they do have a lot more overheads then a lot of other miniature companies.

Those overheads though are supposed to be good for the bottom line overall. Manufacturing in the UK is a choice they make. It's supposed to make them look good to customers and investors, and helps them keep control of their production. Better quality on the production line, and more good will are supposed to translate into more sales.

Likewise, they don't 'have' to run their own stores. They choose to do so because they think it brings in more sales overall.

When those stores stop being useful, you reduce them or remove them... Which is pretty much what they have been doing over the last few years.

All their shops and mass production to drive sales should give them economy of scale. That they have to supposedly charge more than other manufacturers to compensate doesn't look great to me. They should be pushing mass market while their competitors are niche costly things. As it is, GW are the costly ones.

 insaniak wrote:

MadMarkMagee wrote:
To be fair, they do have a lot more overheads then a lot of other miniature companies.

Manufacturing in the UK is a choice they make.

Not saying that is a bad thing.

Price Hikes will continue until all models are painted. Get to work!

Though they tried to take it abroad and it didn't work out, they had those awful terrain pieces produced and Forgeworld stuff suddenly started appearing a lot more from recasters.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
All their shops and mass production to drive sales should give them economy of scale. That they have to supposedly charge more than other manufacturers to compensate doesn't look great to me. They should be pushing mass market while their competitors are niche costly things. As it is, GW are the costly ones.

I agree. I very much doubt that making the spures cost very much at all once they have made a return on the design/molds. I mean how many new people are they going to get in to the hobby if the models are so expensive? When I was a kid in the very early 2000's my parents wouldn't buy me GW cause they said it was rip off/waste of money. That was at early 2000's prices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Though they tried to take it abroad and it didn't work out, they had those awful terrain pieces produced and Forgeworld stuff suddenly started appearing a lot more from recasters.

Anyway the cost of industrial production isn't very much at all in western countries, if the objects being produced are well designed and thus not labor intensive.

weeble1000 wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

I mean, I think voting with your wallet is the best way to show your dissatisfaction, but its got a bit more oomph if you actually quit buying their product completely and not just first hand

And twice the oomph if you spend that money on competitors' products. Three times the oomph if you use those products at your FLGS. Four times the oomph if you actively promote said products and work to build a thriving community around them. Hell, send GW videos of your Warmahordes tournament, pictures of your Infinity league, or battle reports from your Kings of War games.

Five times the oomph If you go to a gamesday event, wearing a tee shirt saying "I play ****insert competitor ***** twice the fun, at half the cost

I wonder if they'd make you leave

 ThouShallNotHeal wrote:
I wonder if they'd make you leave

When I moved to a new area (earlier this year) I went into the local GW to see what it was like. There was an older guy who came in (probably 50's or 60's) to buy a pin vice and the GW chap (I think he was the manager - there seem to be 2-3 people who work at my local store) and the guy did the usual "so what are you working on" talk and the man replied that he was working on some super detailed Tamiya kit and you could see the fear in the staffers eyes and it was actually kind of embarrassing watching how he tried to almost drag this guy out of the store while he talked about how great this kit was and how it fitted together etc (all without realising, as far as I am aware, that he isn't allowed to talk about anything that isn't HHHHobby related on pain of death).

weeble1000 wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
For all of you that are making these ethical stands against buying from GW, I think that's great. Honestly. But remember that all that 2nd hand stuff you're buying was purchased from GW at some point. Also remember that GW sells product to distributors at a significant markdown anyway, so the % off retail that you're paying second hand is really far less than GWs bottom selling line.

I mean, I think voting with your wallet is the best way to show your dissatisfaction, but its got a bit more oomph if you actually quit buying their product completely and not just first hand

And twice the oomph if you spend that money on competitors' products. Three times the oomph if you use those products at your FLGS. Four times the oomph if you actively promote said products and work to build a thriving community around them. Hell, send GW videos of your Warmahordes tournament, pictures of your Infinity league, or battle reports from your Kings of War games.

!"

Exactly what I was driving to. If you're dissatisfied, spend the money elsewhere, not simply second hand. Absolutely the best way to vote with your wallet.

It's a shame, for the most part they are excellent models.

 ThouShallNotHeal wrote:
It's a shame, for the most part they are excellent models.

Which is a major reason why many people are still willing to pay the increased prices. Like I said, I've been buying less frivolously, but if there's something cool that I like, I'll still buy it. All the new Lizardmen stuff has me itching to start a new fantasy army. I most likely wont because two fantasy armies is plenty, but it's definitely piqued my interest.

weeble1000 wrote:

The swiftest, best response I ever got from GW customer service was when I first started boycotting GW for ethical reasons. I sent GW a list of my planned GW purchases with MSRP, explained why I was planning those purchases, and attached a list of the same value of Privateer Press starter boxes that I had purchased instead. I explained that I had never purchased a single PP product in my life and had never expected to, but that I had now done so because of behavior GW was engaged in. This is your company. This is your company losing market share.

I got a personal phone call from GW customer service inside of a week. I politely explained that Games Workshop's litigation and treatment of the hobby community in general were the principle reasons I had made my decision, and stated that I would, as long as such activity continued, continue spending my table-top wargaming dollars elsewhere.

It may not look like it, but Games Workshop really does care about losing market share. Games Workshop knows it is happening, and instead of actually taking steps to deal with it intelligently, GW has instead chosen to say, "This is great news!"

Good on you! If I ever feel the need to write to them again (I wrote about Finecast and heard nothing) I'll attach some receipts for spending at competitors, because they have managed to literally drive away hundreds of dollars of sales from me.

kb305 wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

kb305 wrote:

hunching over a desk for hours on end glueing and painting is no better than playing video games. dont pretend like it is.

I guess that's the case if you don't value being creative.

Different people value different things and that act of valuing is what makes a hobby worthwhile.

at a kid's level it's little more than paint by numbers and there's pressure to paint them in established color schemes.

if you value having your kids sit around all day inside hunched over a desk breathing plastic glue, primer fumes and god knows what else then i dont know what you tell you.

Assuming you don't value things like motor skills, attention to detail, patience resulting in rewarding results and socialising, then there's probably no interest in it.

Whilst my painting and converting skills sucked as a kid (and still do), it got me socialising with similar folk, gave me something to be passionate about, and has resulted in me being fairly competent working with small detailed stuff.

As has it with mine, But sadly I don't like the new Saur beasts :c well, Carnosaur variants anyway.

kb305 wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Also, the demo sales process works. When GW stores do it, they sell starters. Same when Independent retailers can make it work.

It's the reason Privateer has focused their volunteer pressgangers so much on demo games.

Demoing games sells games. Old fashion, put the product in the customer's hands kind of sales. Their retail arm is a form of marketing that uses time tested sales methods of getting people to try it, giving them a positive experience with it, putting it in their hand and closing the sale.

You make it sound a lot creepier than it is. Or do you have a moral objection to kids having hobbies and being introduced to tabletop gaming and painting/modelling? You'd rather they just stared blankly at a tv playing COD all day?

hunching over a desk for hours on end glueing and painting is no better than playing video games. dont pretend like it is.

When did you become the authority of what's fun for everyone?

News Flash: not everyone likes video games. Another news: not everyone hates painting and modelling like you do, some actually *gasp* enjoy it.

It's you basically saying that what you think is fun is fun for everyone and what you hate doing isn't fun for them and they're just filthy little liars.

MadMarkMagee wrote:

 ThouShallNotHeal wrote:
nah, the company would fail almost instantly if we bought it. Too many conflicting opinions.

I'm not saying we should actually medal much with the artistic direction and designers.

Anyway, unless there are a lot of rich crazy people on Dakka, I don't think my suggestion is ever going to happen. Ignore The share price is 788 pounds atm


Edit: shares worth 7.88 pounds, misunderstanding uk currency.

There are 7.2 billion shares atm.

They also only have about a 10 percent profit margin atm.

Anyway this is quite interesting...

http://au.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=GAW.L

http://au.finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=GAW.L

Any accountants out there correct me if this post is rubbish or I've misunderstood some economics jargon.

Never mind ...

I gripe and complain (especially about how GW is letting the SOB disappear and how the chaos codex is a boring and stale) but I do love the hobby. I love the stories behind the factions and characters. I love spending long hours assembling and painting. I love converting and coming up with interesting army lists. I also love playing and finding new strategies.

I love the hobby and don't plan to leave anytime soon. (unless they come out with more Lords of Skulls type crap.) But I fully understand and respect those that feel that the prices are too high. which is true, or that the GW corporates are ruining the hobby. Also true.

Maybe I'm a part of the problem. I'll admit that. But as it is, I love W40k too much to leave. I've been playing since Rogue Trader and is a part of me in a way.

 loki old fart wrote:
Five times the oomph If you go to a gamesday event, wearing a tee shirt saying "I play ****insert competitor ***** twice the fun, at half the cost

I wonder if they would have some little known clause for the event for just such a thing to cover up or get kicked out? Seeing how they like to control the gaming environment I wonder...drink the cool-aid wear the t-shirt.

 Talizvar wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Five times the oomph If you go to a gamesday event, wearing a tee shirt saying "I play ****insert competitor ***** twice the fun, at half the cost

I wonder if they would have some little known clause for the event for just such a thing to cover up or get kicked out? Seeing how they like to control the gaming environment I wonder...drink the cool-aid wear the t-shirt.

why would you go to an event run by a company wearing a t shirt specifically endorsing their competitor? You realise that everyone there will simply think you're a dick and you'll be kicked out?w

And you'd be paying them for this opportunity too. So you may as well just walk into a gw store, hand them a tonne of money, then walk out. It's the same end result.

The prices has indeed got to me. I restarted my hobby back in 2009. Back then the prices are resonabile for my standard I and bought the models/paint and enjoy the hobby. Today at 2013, with high model prices and lack to discount alternatives here in Canada. the price has restricted by purchases to anything new or extending my current army.

I still love 40k, I still have unpainted models to finish and play the occasional game at FLGS. What changed is that I won't be adding new models to my existing army. I like the new models but the current price point is too high to justifly the purchase. Now I use my hobby money for other minitures company, who seem to be producing good models to paint and play at much lower price points.

Why am I posting here to cry? its becuase there are fewer and fewer newcomers to 40K with the high price point. and many more like me who still play but stop expanding their armies. In a few years 40K will fade out from my community. and this makes me want to voice here.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Five times the oomph If you go to a gamesday event, wearing a tee shirt saying "I play ****insert competitor ***** twice the fun, at half the cost

I wonder if they would have some little known clause for the event for just such a thing to cover up or get kicked out? Seeing how they like to control the gaming environment I wonder...drink the cool-aid wear the t-shirt.

why would you go to an event run by a company wearing a t shirt specifically endorsing their competitor? You realise that everyone there will simply think you're a dick and you'll be kicked out?w

And you'd be paying them for this opportunity too. So you may as well just walk into a gw store, hand them a tonne of money, then walk out. It's the same end result.

Call me crazy, but without any rules specifying dress code, I would absolutely expect my money back if I were ejected based merely on dress.

weeble1000 wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Five times the oomph If you go to a gamesday event, wearing a tee shirt saying "I play ****insert competitor ***** twice the fun, at half the cost

I wonder if they would have some little known clause for the event for just such a thing to cover up or get kicked out? Seeing how they like to control the gaming environment I wonder...drink the cool-aid wear the t-shirt.

why would you go to an event run by a company wearing a t shirt specifically endorsing their competitor? You realise that everyone there will simply think you're a dick and you'll be kicked out?w

And you'd be paying them for this opportunity too. So you may as well just walk into a gw store, hand them a tonne of money, then walk out. It's the same end result.

Call me crazy, but without any rules specifying dress code, I would absolutely expect my money back if I were ejected based merely on dress.

I don't know, if you are willfully and obstinately taking the piss, do you really deserve your cash back?

If you went into the home end during a football game, and then whipped your jacket off to sport the opposition teams colors, I would expect you to get thrown out for being a dick, and money be damned. Same goes for anything along those lines, walking into a mosque on Friday prayers wearing traditional garb and then whipping it off to show a "BACON RULES" shirt, marching into a feminist rally with a NO MEANS YES, YES MEANS ANAL, or anything else along those lines.

I dislike many of the things that many groups and organisations do, but acting like a willful prick is a surefire way to get fethed off with no money returned, and pretty much everyone will agree with your treatment, even if they are in agreement with the sentiment. I wouldn't ever pay to go to a GW gamesday considering the company seem to be largely taking the piss, but I would certainly think you were an absolute tool if you turned up sporting said shirt, and I would laugh/help them throw you out if it came to it.

Im all for disagreeing, but theres a way to do it, and being needlessly belligerent in front of people who feel strongly about things isnt one of them. Im a pretty strong atheist but I dont think people should be able to act in such a manner in churches and cathedrals, its just rude, crass, and fething childish.

Or rather.. its not cricket old chap.

 BryllCream wrote:
why would you go to an event run by a company wearing a t shirt specifically endorsing their competitor? You realise that everyone there will simply think you're a dick and you'll be kicked out?
And you'd be paying them for this opportunity too. So you may as well just walk into a gw store, hand them a tonne of money, then walk out. It's the same end result.

Why not wear competitor merchandise?
As indicated you spend a lot of money to get in and for the materials to play.
I do not owe them something more other than exactly what I paid for.

Why would everyone think badly of me if I wear competitor clothing?
Would that fall under the same category as differing interests like MTG?
Lack of loyalty to the community brand?
StarCraft apparel would be competitor as well since GW has 40k video games.
If it was any other company, few would give it any thought.

Would a person be kicked out for wearing a competitor T-shirt?
Did some searches, found nothing, could be possible... anyone out there seen this?
I think I would wear something JUST to find out not to be a jerk but to see how they handle it.
I would then make my purchases in the future accordingly.

Handing them a ton of money would be the same end result (paraphrase).
No it would not.
Asking them what policy or disclaimer had been violated would be the first question.
They typically hold it at a convention center so they cannot fall back on trespassing so they lean on stipulations on the ticket or criminal code to eject offenders.
For them to keep the money (only $50, not all that much compared to their other products) without good reason can cause them trouble when made public.

At least they are still holding games day and at $50 I can say they are not pricing themselves out in this regard (Anime North was $45 for a day, close enough).

<<edit>> I do agree that "wearing the other team's colours." is poorly viewed (possibly life threatening at a football/soccer match). GW does not acknowledge or allow venues for protest so this event would be the one. I would just want to get a dig in with a hat anyway... anything I would bring to a games day would set straight where I really hang my hat.

Anyone else miss the days when army books and codices only cost 25$?

The thing to remember is that GW's plan is to get as much money as possible from people before they quit, so they need the army book/codex to cost more because it's far more likely to be purchased than any given box set for an army.

It's shocking when you look at what $50 gets you in the RPG market. Many, many times the page count, original fiction, more art. With GW it gets you a thin volume with recycled art and fiction.

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's shocking when you look at what $50 gets you in the RPG market. Many, many times the page count, original fiction, more art. With GW it gets you a thin volume with recycled art and fiction.

That's simply untrue. The last few codexes have had lots of new artwork and new fiction, but some fiction is repeated simply because there's no need to re-invent the wheel. I recently received Vampire the Masquerade and Werewolf the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Editions, which were twice the cost of the new codexes, and filled with repeated art and fiction. GW is not the only company to do that, it would seem, and not the worst offender. But it does appear that it's only a problem if GW does this.

kb305 wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

kb305 wrote:

hunching over a desk for hours on end glueing and painting is no better than playing video games. dont pretend like it is.

I guess that's the case if you don't value being creative.

Different people value different things and that act of valuing is what makes a hobby worthwhile.

at a kid's level it's little more than paint by numbers and there's pressure to paint them in established color schemes.

if you value having your kids sit around all day inside hunched over a desk breathing plastic glue, primer fumes and god knows what else then i don't know what you tell you.

I have been painting miniatures since I was twelve years old.

I have been building models since I was eight.

Maybe when you were a kid you were painting by numbers, and completely uncreative, but I can assure you that it is by no means universal. I have seen way too many kids enjoying the heck out of everything from crayons to finger paints to watercolors to think that children are not creative.

They may not be great artists, but their is nothing wrong with their imaginations.

As for the fumes - If the room is well ventilated then there is no problem. I prime in a little place that I like to call 'outside'. You know - that weird place with the trees and the birds?

The Auld Grump

 Haemonculus wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's shocking when you look at what $50 gets you in the RPG market. Many, many times the page count, original fiction, more art. With GW it gets you a thin volume with recycled art and fiction.

That's simply untrue. The last few codexes have had lots of new artwork and new fiction, but some fiction is repeated simply because there's no need to re-invent the wheel. I recently received Vampire the Masquerade and Werewolf the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Editions, which were twice the cost of the new codexes, and filled with repeated art and fiction. GW is not the only company to do that, it would seem, and not the worst offender. But it does appear that it's only a problem if GW does this.

Apples and kumquats...an anniversary edition is expected to be mostly the same with a fancy cover and maybe some additional goodies (dust jacket, sleeve, new forward by the authors with a 20 year retrospective). A new Codex is a new book. It would be like if TSR reused art and fiction from AD&D when they did 2nd Edition back in the day.

Most of what goes into a new Codex went into the old Codex, or a Black Library book, or a Codex 2 Editions ago. Compare that to...lets just keep things as close as possible...a book like the 40K RPGs from FFG. Big, hard bound, full color books - slam full of brand new art, fiction, fluffy bits and all that. Page for page, you easily get twice as much from them as you do from GW and that doesnt even take into account the actual amount of new content versus old.

Other companies dont recycle material because they want to give a reason for veterans to buy the new item. An anniversary edition is a reason in its own right. A new edition of the rules will get ignored by existing players if they dont get something new from it...though that isnt news - GW has a very low regard for veteran retention in their turn and burn business strategy.

Not quite Apples and Kumquats - more like Oranges and Tangerines.

More importantly, from GW's PoV, if spending $50 gets me more RPG stuff then I am more likely to spend that $50 on RPG stuff.

If I spend my fruit dollars buying Tangerines then I do not have the fruit dollars to buy Oranges.

I buy Paizo - that money is gone, and not going anywhere near GW.

I buy Chaosium - that money is gone and goes nowhere near GW.

I buy miniatures from Reaper to use with GW - that money is gone, going nowhere near GW, and to go back to the fruit stall for a moment, is buying seedless oranges not tangerines.

However - RPG companies recycle art all the time - Paizo most certainly does.

Sometimes rules get recycled - Ultimate Campaign recycles the kingdom building rules from the Kingmaker arc.

Right now WotC is selling reprints of the older editions of D&D - it would not surprise me if the reprints are outselling 4e, at the moment.

At least some of the art is recycled, and all of the rules.

So... not quite Apples and Kumquats.

The Auld Grump

Different companies recycle art and fiction to different degrees, but a lot of the hardcover RPG books I've bought over the last year have been full of original stuff. If GW really wants to see how to put together a good 40k book, they only have to look at the FFG 40k RPG books. They must see them as licensed products usually require final approval in some form.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
A new Codex is a new book. It would be like if TSR reused art and fiction from AD&D when they did 2nd Edition back in the day.

Except GW has to keep all of the old units - certainly can't invalidate anything, right? And they need to include the regular background stuff on the particular army for the newbies, right? And some of the art is iconic for the army, right? And they have to add in new units to push new product, right?

All of the new codexes have had new weapon art, new art, expanded background sections, more info on batttles/timelines, etc than the older codexes. So to say they don't include anything new in the books is a bit disingenuous. Sure, they could certainly sell them cheaper, but someone is buying them at $50 a pop.

I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the Dark Angel book, the only 6th ed hardback book I purchased (and the only one I'm likely to even though I play 6 or so armies)

Edited once for quotes, twice for clarity

Sure, they could certainly sell them cheaper, but someone is buying them at $50 a pop.

Yea people are buying them at $50 a pop. The problem is that the trend I am seeing is that not everyone is buying all of them at $50 a pop.

Used to purchase every single codex at 5th Ed. I certainly won't for 6th.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

Sure, they could certainly sell them cheaper, but someone is buying them at $50 a pop.

Yea people are buying them at $50 a pop. The problem is that the trend I am seeing is that not everyone is buying all of them at $50 a pop.

Used to purchase every single codex at 5th Ed. I certainly won't for 6th.

Yup, this.

I own every codex released from 2nd edition through to the start of 6th. From the 6th edition releases so far, I have Codex: Dark Angels, and no intention of buying any more in the forseable future. The move to AU$85 hardcovers is directly responsible for that. At AU$50, like last edition, I would still be buying them all.

 frozenwastes wrote:

kb305 wrote:

hunching over a desk for hours on end glueing and painting is no better than playing video games. dont pretend like it is.

I guess that's the case if you don't value being creative.

Different people value different things and that act of valuing is what makes a hobby worthwhile.

Are you suggesting that creativity doesn't go in to playing videogames? One of the most important aspect in making games fun, be they videogames or traditional games, is the creativity that goes into playing them, as much as it does going into making them.

Cruentus wrote:

I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the Dark Angel book, the only 6th ed hardback book I purchased (and the only one I'm likely to even though I play 6 or so armies)

Don't you dare say something like this! Don't you know the Dark Angel Codex is the worst example of quality GW has ever produced? look carefully and you will find spelling mistakes, wording errors, units missing equipments, units gaining abilities that they shoudn't have, units losing abilities that they should have.

I am a DA player. but spending $60CAD retail to support this crap is one of the reasons I hate GW and their high prices can't even produce an error free/ rules correct codex.

wufai wrote:

Cruentus wrote:

I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the Dark Angel book, the only 6th ed hardback book I purchased (and the only one I'm likely to even though I play 6 or so armies)

Don't you dare say something like this! Don't you know the Dark Angel Codex is the worst example of quality GW has ever produced? look carefully and you will find spelling mistakes, wording errors, units missing equipments, units gaining abilities that they shoudn't have, units losing abilities that they should have.

I am a DA player. but spending $60CAD retail to support this crap is one of the reasons I hate GW and their high prices can't even produce an error free/ rules correct codex.

Man you Dark Angel players can carry the martyr syndrome can't you?

I mean, you say this as if every other codex doesn't have this issue. If you were a Tyranid player the 5th edition codex would have sent you into fits.

 Fafnir wrote:

Are you suggesting that creativity doesn't go in to playing videogames? One of the most important aspect in making games fun, be they videogames or traditional games, is the creativity that goes into playing them, as much as it does going into making them.

There's probably a forum where video game talk is appropriate and not off topic.

Back on topic...

As for GW, my biggest issue with their prices is the rules actively devaluing the models. A while back I bought some Glade Riders for use as Everblight Cavalry in Hordes. Five out of the box made up a unit and later another was converted into a cavalry special character solo. They made up more than a quarter of my army. But if I were to use them in Warhammer Fantasy Battles, they'd make up a tiny fraction of a complete army. Since 6th edition of WHFB and 3rd edition of 40k, GW's goal has been to drive the model count up and up and the net effect is that the miniatures they sell are less relevant on the table top.

The end result is a massive cost for a 2000 or 3000 point army and individual models that I might think are cool are never going to be a meaningful part of the game.

I would actually be quite alright with many of the US and UK prices of GW figures if the games didn't devalue them (there is no possible chance I'm going to pay Canadian full retail). So I use my existing collection with other rules and have stopped buying GW stuff at all. During 2nd edition 40k and 4th/5th edition WFB, the games had a much lower model count and the price of a complete force was quite lower, even adjusted for inflation and currency exchange changes. It was also the time when GW grew from an importer of other company's products into an international company. It was the period of their largest percentage year-over-year growth.

Warmachine/Hordes has a model count similar to GW's games during their greatest period of growth. They also have a lower total cost for a full sized army. Privateer seems to be going from strength to strength and expanding while GW stagnates. I wish GW would remember what made them the international company that they are today and return to their roots. The games of the 90s definitely had some problems, but that's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Since 6th edition of WHFB and 3rd edition of 40k, GW's goal has been to drive the model count up and up and the net effect is that the miniatures they sell are less relevant on the table top..

Technically, for 40K this started in 2nd edition, not 3rd, since RT was a small-force skirmish game, where 2nd ed started the transition into larger games.

But the push for larger and larger armies isn't something that can be blamed solely on GW. FOr all their faults, this is one of the places where they did listen to their fan base and give them what they wanted. (The cynic would say that's just because this particular change is good for their bottom line, but hey, what can you do...?)

What GW found was that while 2nd ed started out fairly small, once people got used to it they started wanting to play larger and larger games with a set of rules that really wasn't well suited to large games... So with the transition to 3rd ed, GW tried to make the game more suitable for those large battles, while still being playable at the intended 1500-2000 point range.

I'm not sure how miniatures are not 'relevant' but yes, this does mean you need to spend more to play bigger games... but there is certainly no requirement to play 20000 point games. Or even 1500 or 2000 point games... For a large chunk of 4th edition, the group I played with had a blast playing 500 point games.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Five times the oomph If you go to a gamesday event, wearing a tee shirt saying "I play ****insert competitor ***** twice the fun, at half the cost

I wonder if they would have some little known clause for the event for just such a thing to cover up or get kicked out? Seeing how they like to control the gaming environment I wonder...drink the cool-aid wear the t-shirt.

why would you go to an event run by a company wearing a t shirt specifically endorsing their competitor? You realise that everyone there will simply think you're a dick and you'll be kicked out?w

And you'd be paying them for this opportunity too. So you may as well just walk into a gw store, hand them a tonne of money, then walk out. It's the same end result.

I frequently make a point of wearing my 'Ard Boyz shirt to Warmachine events. It amuses me to do so, and most everyone there already knows I'm an arse anyways, so I might as well advertise it to the unwary as well.

 insaniak wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Since 6th edition of WHFB and 3rd edition of 40k, GW's goal has been to drive the model count up and up and the net effect is that the miniatures they sell are less relevant on the table top..

Technically, for 40K this started in 2nd edition, not 3rd, since RT was a small-force skirmish game, where 2nd ed started the transition into larger games.

But the push for larger and larger armies isn't something that can be blamed solely on GW. FOr all their faults, this is one of the places where they did listen to their fan base and give them what they wanted. (The cynic would say that's just because this particular change is good for their bottom line, but hey, what can you do...?)

What GW found was that while 2nd ed started out fairly small, once people got used to it they started wanting to play larger and larger games with a set of rules that really wasn't well suited to large games... So with the transition to 3rd ed, GW tried to make the game more suitable for those large battles, while still being playable at the intended 1500-2000 point range.

I'm not sure how miniatures are not 'relevant' but yes, this does mean you need to spend more to play bigger games... but there is certainly no requirement to play 20000 point games. Or even 1500 or 2000 point games... For a large chunk of 4th edition, the group I played with had a blast playing 500 point games.

But they still obviously want to encourage lust for bigger games to sell more models. Look at how they push Apocalypse.

Anyway as much as the corporate types that run that company would love to start making models obsolete, they would never really try it. To much anger.

I think its good people can play big games. However I have no desire to play anything bigger then 1500. So much time moving models.

Anyway to examine what I've learnt in this discussion I we're being a bit hard on them. As I posted earlier they have more overheads then most other model companies, overheads that people can't really complain about. (Stores which have been useful to people, first world manufacturing (out-sourcing and neo-liberalism is the reason why all your countries have such high levels of unemployment and dire economic circumstances, remember that even your skilled jobs won't be safe soon).

They only made 10 percent profit this year.

However I think that they are doing very mean things which really irk me, just to get a few short term extra dollars. I think these mean things (like the dire avengers 10 to 5) make no sense from an economic rationale point of view and just drive people away.

MadMarkMagee wrote:

They only made 10 percent profit this year.

However I think that they are doing very mean things which really irk me, just to get a few short term extra dollars. I think these mean things (like the dire avengers 10 to 5) make no sense from an economic rationale point of view and just drive people away.

This is more or less why I stopped buying from GW. The prices don't really bother me that much (apart from the army book ones). Dirtying on yr fanbase and supporters by throwing legals at them does.

 AduroT wrote:
I frequently make a point of wearing my 'Ard Boyz shirt to Warmachine events. It amuses me to do so, and most everyone there already knows I'm an arse anyways, so I might as well advertise it to the unwary as well.

Shhhhhhh..... I was trying to make the point you do not have to be an "arse" to remind a supplier there is other competition out there and to "sharpen their pencils".
Short of avoiding off colour images or wording, it is rather poor taste to control what your customers wear and I "think" GW has not gone that far yet.

Staying to topic GW shirts are from $24 to $30!
Privateer press shirts are $16.
Darn competition must be making those in China...

 mattyrm wrote:
I don't know, if you are willfully and obstinately taking the piss, do you really deserve your cash back?

If you went into the home end during a football game, and then whipped your jacket off to sport the opposition teams colors, I would expect you to get thrown out for being a dick, and money be damned. Same goes for anything along those lines, walking into a mosque on Friday prayers wearing traditional garb and then whipping it off to show a "BACON RULES" shirt, marching into a feminist rally with a NO MEANS YES, YES MEANS ANAL, or anything else along those lines.

The whole idea of having to separate the supporters of opposing sports teams (to prevent violence and such) is foreign in North America, and thus makes a poor example for many of us. You'd get some cheeful ribbing and jokes but that's it. It's totally acceptable and expected here.

In the other examples you're talking about religion and rape, which can hardly be equated to walking into the Apple store wearing a Microsoft t-shirt (which I believe is a better comparison). If GW isn't mature enough to ignore a slight jab about companies in the leisure gaming market, then they really should grow up.

I am gone. Chess club has been moved to when the non donkeycave players play, and I found a flames of war group within 30 minutes.

 Haemonculus wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's shocking when you look at what $50 gets you in the RPG market. Many, many times the page count, original fiction, more art. With GW it gets you a thin volume with recycled art and fiction.

That's simply untrue. The last few codexes have had lots of new artwork and new fiction, but some fiction is repeated simply because there's no need to re-invent the wheel. I recently received Vampire the Masquerade and Werewolf the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Editions, which were twice the cost of the new codexes, and filled with repeated art and fiction. GW is not the only company to do that, it would seem, and not the worst offender. But it does appear that it's only a problem if GW does this.

But compared to companies where you can get the rules for free, or where army books are optional and you get stat cards with each unit....

 Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Anyone else miss the days when army books and codices only cost 25$?

I remember when they were $19. And Space Marines came in boxes of 30. And Rhinos were 3 to a box :(

My 8 y.o. son expressed interest, I looked at current prices, bollocks! I cant even get bits from the Warstore anymore.

So, we'll just use my 25 year collection and stick with 4th or 5th ed, whichever he agrees to. He can pick Tau, Nids, IG, Orks, SM (4 chapters to chose), GK or CSM.

Shame prices have gotten so out of hand. I've got other things that require that kind of money (gas for 2 vehicles, food for children, sports for children, mortgage, student loans etc). Hats off to you that dont have to worry about expenses.

Adulthood: FEAR IT!

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Anyone else miss the days when army books and codices only cost 25$?

I remember when they were $19. And Space Marines came in boxes of 30. And Rhinos were 3 to a box :(

My 8 y.o. son expressed interest, I looked at current prices, bollocks! I cant even get bits from the Warstore anymore.

So, we'll just use my 25 year collection and stick with 4th or 5th ed, whichever he agrees to. He can pick Tau, Nids, IG, Orks, SM (4 chapters to chose), GK or CSM.

Shame prices have gotten so out of hand. I've got other things that require that kind of money (gas for 2 vehicles, food for children, sports for children, mortgage, student loans etc). Hats off to you that dont have to worry about expenses.

Adulthood: FEAR IT!

25 years ago! ? I think a fair amount of the increase would be due to inflation ( Prices of things have roughly doubled since 1985).

Though ofc GW raises prices in excess of inflation, that is the issue.

Just posting this in case anyone starts trying to argue that space marines should still cost 19 dollars.

Ashitaka wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
I don't know, if you are willfully and obstinately taking the piss, do you really deserve your cash back?

If you went into the home end during a football game, and then whipped your jacket off to sport the opposition teams colors, I would expect you to get thrown out for being a dick, and money be damned. Same goes for anything along those lines, walking into a mosque on Friday prayers wearing traditional garb and then whipping it off to show a "BACON RULES" shirt, marching into a feminist rally with a NO MEANS YES, YES MEANS ANAL, or anything else along those lines.

The whole idea of having to separate the supporters of opposing sports teams (to prevent violence and such) is foreign in North America, and thus makes a poor example for many of us. You'd get some cheeful ribbing and jokes but that's it. It's totally acceptable and expected here.

In the other examples you're talking about religion and rape, which can hardly be equated to walking into the Apple store wearing a Microsoft t-shirt (which I believe is a better comparison). If GW isn't mature enough to ignore a slight jab about companies in the leisure gaming market, then they really should grow up.

So your not a Raider fan. We had security remove supporters for the other team for there own safety. Oh, and the safety of the fans in the stands below, drunks throwing stuff miss a lot.

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Anyone else miss the days when army books and codices only cost 25$?

I remember when they were $19. And Space Marines came in boxes of 30. And Rhinos were 3 to a box :(

My 8 y.o. son expressed interest, I looked at current prices, bollocks! I cant even get bits from the Warstore anymore.

So, we'll just use my 25 year collection and stick with 4th or 5th ed, whichever he agrees to. He can pick Tau, Nids, IG, Orks, SM (4 chapters to chose), GK or CSM.

Shame prices have gotten so out of hand. I've got other things that require that kind of money (gas for 2 vehicles, food for children, sports for children, mortgage, student loans etc). Hats off to you that dont have to worry about expenses.

Adulthood: FEAR IT!

Or...and this might sound crazy....you could use that "25 year collection" and introduce him with gak you already have and then add a box or two.

Plenty of us have those expenses, too. It's a simple matter of budgeting your discretionary money. It's really not that hard.

MadMarkMagee wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Anyone else miss the days when army books and codices only cost 25$?

I remember when they were $19. And Space Marines came in boxes of 30. And Rhinos were 3 to a box :(

My 8 y.o. son expressed interest, I looked at current prices, bollocks! I cant even get bits from the Warstore anymore.

So, we'll just use my 25 year collection and stick with 4th or 5th ed, whichever he agrees to. He can pick Tau, Nids, IG, Orks, SM (4 chapters to chose), GK or CSM.

Shame prices have gotten so out of hand. I've got other things that require that kind of money (gas for 2 vehicles, food for children, sports for children, mortgage, student loans etc). Hats off to you that dont have to worry about expenses.

Adulthood: FEAR IT!

25 years ago! ? I think a fair amount of the increase would be due to inflation ( Prices of things have roughly doubled since 1985).

Though ofc GW raises prices in excess of inflation, that is the issue.

Just posting this in case anyone starts trying to argue that space marines should still cost 19 dollars.

Yes, I stopped buying when I last bought the Tau codex.

Edit:
Oh crud,there's a 6th edition Tau Codex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Anyone else miss the days when army books and codices only cost 25$?

I remember when they were $19. And Space Marines came in boxes of 30. And Rhinos were 3 to a box :(

My 8 y.o. son expressed interest, I looked at current prices, bollocks! I cant even get bits from the Warstore anymore.

So, we'll just use my 25 year collection and stick with 4th or 5th ed, whichever he agrees to. He can pick Tau, Nids, IG, Orks, SM (4 chapters to chose), GK or CSM.

Shame prices have gotten so out of hand. I've got other things that require that kind of money (gas for 2 vehicles, food for children, sports for children, mortgage, student loans etc). Hats off to you that dont have to worry about expenses.

Adulthood: FEAR IT!

Or...and this might sound crazy....you could use that "25 year collection" and introduce him with gak you already have and then add a box or two.

Plenty of us have those expenses, too. It's a simple matter of budgeting your discretionary money. It's really not that hard.

WOW, that's a GREAT idea!! <sarcasm>

Guess you missed the part where I said:

So, we'll just use my 25 year collection and stick with 4th or 5th ed, whichever he agrees to. He can pick Tau, Nids, IG, Orks, SM (4 chapters to chose), GK or CSM.

My discretionary income goes to ANOTHER hobby, where I feel I get more DAKKA for my buck$. GW, for me, just doesnt offer that any more, especially for the price they are asking. Which is a pity, the new starter set looks cool too, just not $100/$80 cool. They've priced themselves out of what I consider "impulse buy" money.

 Spacemanvic wrote:


My discretionary income goes to ANOTHER hobby, where I feel I get more DAKKA for my buck$. GW, for me, just doesnt offer that any more, especially for the price they are asking. Which is a pity, the new starter set looks cool too, just not $100/$80 cool. They've priced themselves out of what I consider "impulse buy" money.

Exactly.

 Spacemanvic wrote:
Oh crud,there's a 6th edition Tau Codex?

I felt the same way when the CSM codex's kept changing, it is a mixed blessing the new one is hard cover = I kept getting them mixed up of what was current.
Recycling some of the old artwork and fluff made it even harder...
I will be doing a similar thing with my kids of letting them pick up from what I have other than my main painted army.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:
Oh crud,there's a 6th edition Tau Codex?

I felt the same way when the CSM codex's kept changing, it is a mixed blessing the new one is hard cover = I kept getting them mixed up of what was current.
Recycling some of the old artwork and fluff made it even harder...
I will be doing a similar thing with my kids of letting them pick up from what I have other than my main painted army.

Right now for my kids, its the only way to go. For some people with one or two kids, it might not be an issue, but Ive got more than that, so I spend accordingly.

insaniak wrote:
I'm not sure how miniatures are not 'relevant' but yes, this does mean you need to spend more to play bigger games...

I thought I explained it with my example of glade riders. The best way to see what I'm talking about is to take some of your 40k or WFB collection and play a set of rules that concentrates on a lower model count. Then go back and play the same stuff in 40k and see how the miniatures get lost in the sea of little faces. If I play WFB, I can paint a box of something up and have them be far, far less relevant to the overall experience than with other games using the same miniatures. It's part of having a larger model count game and should be fairly obvious.

The other issue I have with 40k is in terms of the turn structure and model count and how they relate. The last time I played 40k I had my tyranid army. When the battle lines were getting closer I had about 85 models left. I moved them. I fleeted with them. I charged with some. Afterwards I basically realized that I had been making my opponent just sit there while I did 200+ model movements. I immediately apologized to my opponent and have never done that to anyone again. It was literally my last game of 40k. I sold 90% of my nids and use the remaining 10% in Aliens style skirmish gaming using my D&D dungeon tiles.

 Spacemanvic wrote:

WOW, that's a GREAT idea!! <sarcasm>

Guess you missed the part where I said:

So, we'll just use my 25 year collection and stick with 4th or 5th ed, whichever he agrees to. He can pick Tau, Nids, IG, Orks, SM (4 chapters to chose), GK or CSM.

No, I didn't miss it. I just think thats a poor excuse why you can no longer add a box or two to your collection every here and there.

My discretionary income goes to ANOTHER hobby, where I feel I get more DAKKA for my buck$. GW, for me, just doesnt offer that any more, especially for the price they are asking. Which is a pity, the new starter set looks cool too, just not $100/$80 cool. They've priced themselves out of what I consider "impulse buy" money.

Fair enough. I think it's funny that you use the Starter set as your example though; you're one of the first people I've ever heard say it wasn't worth the $$.

With all that being said, threads like these are inherently selfish and filled with veterans complaining that they can no longer buy as much as they want to. I think thats crap. If you're a vet, you haven't been priced out because, as a vet, you should have a preexisting collection that, like I said above, you can augment with a new unit here and there on new releases.

If we're going to bitch about people being priced out at all, it should be concerning the high entry point to start an army, and not "boo hoo I can no longer get X amount of marines for X amount of dollars."

 cincydooley wrote:
If we're going to bitch about people being priced out at all, it should be concerning the high entry point to start an army, and not "boo hoo I can no longer get X amount of marines for X amount of dollars."

That's usually the crux of my argument when comparing why I find x game cheaper than y game. Cost of entry is very important, but most people ignore on this

 frozenwastes wrote:
[The other issue I have with 40k is in terms of the turn structure and model count and how they relate. The last time I played 40k I had my tyranid army. When the battle lines were getting closer I had about 85 models left. I moved them. I fleeted with them. I charged with some. Afterwards I basically realized that I had been making my opponent just sit there while I did 200+ model movements. I immediately apologized to my opponent and have never done that to anyone again. It was literally my last game of 40k. I sold 90% of my nids and use the remaining 10% in Aliens style skirmish gaming using my D&D dungeon tiles.

This rule is one of the few things that I really wish 40k would adopt from the the old AT-43 rules. Move your most forward model in a unit with measurement, and then move everything else without measuring but keeping coherency. Casual play certainly allows for this, but man, if you try that in a tournament setting there are definitely some folks that lose their gak. So I definitely feel your pain.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
If we're going to bitch about people being priced out at all, it should be concerning the high entry point to start an army, and not "boo hoo I can no longer get X amount of marines for X amount of dollars."

That's usually the crux of my argument when comparing why I find x game cheaper than y game. Cost of entry is very important, but most people ignore on this

cost of entry is also of less concern to people alread in the game.

 Polonius wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
If we're going to bitch about people being priced out at all, it should be concerning the high entry point to start an army, and not "boo hoo I can no longer get X amount of marines for X amount of dollars."

That's usually the crux of my argument when comparing why I find x game cheaper than y game. Cost of entry is very important, but most people ignore on this

cost of entry is also of less concern to people alread in the game.

Oh, for sure, but it becomes really tiresome to hear supposed veterans complain about "getting priced out" when, as "veterans", they should assuredly already have a bunch of models they can play with. I've been adding to my Space Wolves for like, 5 or 6 years. That means when a new marine box comes out that I like, I spend that $33-$80 bucks and get one and combine it with the copious amount of Wolves bits I already have.

Honestly, for a "veteran" to play a new edition, they can use existing models and 'buy in' with the new codex and rulebook for less than $100 bucks.

But you're right. That is a pretty big expense every 4-6 years.

Oh, I've straight up called people liars to their face when they claim they were "priced out." The cost to merely keep playing is pretty marginal.

I posted this in the annual report thread though it seems (more) relevant here too.

Since about 2010 I've been feeling pretty priced out by GW and I've certainly been buying less than I used to.

Yet... My purchases for the last year:

July: Apocalypse Rulebook, Apocalypse Templates, Vortex Template
June: Eldar codex. 3 versions of Bugman, Bugmans Boardgame, Abaddon+Loken, Rhino Doors, Bugmans Pitcher. Belial.
May: 2 Vengeance Cruisers, 9 escorts. Planet Killer. Orbital BatteriesGaunts Ghosts, Last Chancers. Assorted Mordians.
April: Tau Codex
March:
February: Chaos Demons Codex
January: Dark Angels codex, Nephilim Fighter
December: The Hobbit game. Crusade of Fire
November: Helltalon fighter. Eavy Metal paint set
October: Chaos Space Marine codex.
September: Dark Vengeance
August:
July: 40k 6th Edition Collectors book.


Now, that's a heck of a lot of money! Yet, I 'feel' like I've hardly bought anything from them, counting that all up though and I can imagine we're talking near enough 500 pounds.

500 pounds from a company I've 'fallen out' with. That's just insane.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
If we're going to bitch about people being priced out at all, it should be concerning the high entry point to start an army, and not "boo hoo I can no longer get X amount of marines for X amount of dollars."

That's usually the crux of my argument when comparing why I find x game cheaper than y game. Cost of entry is very important, but most people ignore on this

cost of entry is also of less concern to people alread in the game.

Oh, for sure, but it becomes really tiresome to hear supposed veterans complain about "getting priced out" when, as "veterans", they should assuredly already have a bunch of models they can play with. I've been adding to my Space Wolves for like, 5 or 6 years. That means when a new marine box comes out that I like, I spend that $33-$80 bucks and get one and combine it with the copious amount of Wolves bits I already have.

Honestly, for a "veteran" to play a new edition, they can use existing models and 'buy in' with the new codex and rulebook for less than $100 bucks.

But you're right. That is a pretty big expense every 4-6 years.

Wow. Really, what's your problem, why the hostility? Over a game of toy soldiers?!?

Here's the part you dont get: GW isnt providing entertainment value for me that it once did. When the pricing was "realistic", sure I'd buy a box here and there, but as I grew up (now 43), the sheen of spikey bits and cheap plastic didnt hold the awe it once did. Now that my son is interested, I'll just do what GW does (and charges through the nose for): Ill recycle the artwork in my RT, 2nd through 5th ed books, and Ill use the the extensive models I own. He wont know the difference, it'll all be new to him. Oh wait, that's what GW does now for the most part.

 Polonius wrote:
cost of entry is also of less concern to people alread in the game.

I agree, and while it doesn't pertain to this thread I usually involve myself with the, "why should I play Warmachine vs. Go Fish vs. w/e is the flavor" which is what my comment is normally directed towards.

In this thread, taking the 30 bucks or so to grab a new box of models isn't that hard to do. So you eat out 1 time a week instead of 4, or you don't see those two movies this month. It all depends on where you want your hobby money to go. I won't be buying a Grey Hunters box this month because I went shooting and saw Wolverine. I'm okay with that choice since I have tac marines out the butt and it's mostly for the bits.

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Wow. Really, what's your problem, why the hostility? Over a game of toy soldiers?!?

Here's the part you dont get: GW isnt providing entertainment value for me that it once did. When the pricing was "realistic", sure I'd buy a box here and there, but as I grew up (now 43), the sheen of spikey bits and cheap plastic didnt hold the awe it once did. Now that my son is interested, I'll just do what GW does (and charges through the nose for): Ill recycle the artwork in my RT, 2nd through 5th ed books, and Ill use the the extensive models I own. He wont know the difference, it'll all be new to him. Oh wait, that's what GW does now for the most part.

I don't have a problem and I'm not being at all hostile.

I simply think there's a lot of disingenous bitchery that goes around from "vets" saying they've been "priced out" when in fact the only thing they've been "priced out" of is buying new armies.

I'm actually right with you on GW not providing enough entertainment value. I can completely understand that. You're comparing the 'value' of that $50 or whatever you want to spend. There have been multiple times this month where I've had a spare $50 and opted to go to the range over buying a box of toy soliders. You're basically saying you've "grown out" of wargaming, which is entirely different than saying you've been priced out. Further, getting your son in the hobby is the exact method I was advocating for: a vet using their extensive collection and then augmenting it with a new box here and there.

And FWIW, GW has been commissioning a ton of new artwork and you've apparently not seen any of the new codecies, so the claim that they're simply "recycling" everything is false.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
cost of entry is also of less concern to people alread in the game.

I agree, and while it doesn't pertain to this thread I usually involve myself with the, "why should I play Warmachine vs. Go Fish vs. w/e is the flavor" which is what my comment is normally directed towards.

In this thread, taking the 30 bucks or so to grab a new box of models isn't that hard to do. So you eat out 1 time a week instead of 4, or you don't see those two movies this month. It all depends on where you want your hobby money to go. I won't be buying a Grey Hunters box this month because I went shooting and saw Wolverine. I'm okay with that choice since I have tac marines out the butt and it's mostly for the bits.

Dude, more reasons for me to like you. We need to go to the range sometime when we're at a Con together.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
cost of entry is also of less concern to people alread in the game.

I agree, and while it doesn't pertain to this thread I usually involve myself with the, "why should I play Warmachine vs. Go Fish vs. w/e is the flavor" which is what my comment is normally directed towards.

In this thread, taking the 30 bucks or so to grab a new box of models isn't that hard to do. So you eat out 1 time a week instead of 4, or you don't see those two movies this month. It all depends on where you want your hobby money to go. I won't be buying a Grey Hunters box this month because I went shooting and saw Wolverine. I'm okay with that choice since I have tac marines out the butt and it's mostly for the bits.

Reloading helps with the cost of shooting quite a bit. Just started casting 45ACP in order to shoot indoors.

Cost of entry is an issue for me as I see my son express an interest that he wont be able to fully explore as I wont be funding his GW foray. Yes, GW produces a few items that make me say "wow cool", but then I saw the prices they want and that kind of ends the browsing. He'll have to make do with my extensive collection. Shame, as this is something he an I can share, but then again, there are better cost effective things that he and I can do.

Dunno, for me GW just doesn't merit their asking price. It's a hobby, so I went and found other things that are better spent. All I did was comment how I felt and my experience, and I get jumped for it. So much for the social aspect of "the hobby".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Wow. Really, what's your problem, why the hostility? Over a game of toy soldiers?!?

Here's the part you dont get: GW isnt providing entertainment value for me that it once did. When the pricing was "realistic", sure I'd buy a box here and there, but as I grew up (now 43), the sheen of spikey bits and cheap plastic didnt hold the awe it once did. Now that my son is interested, I'll just do what GW does (and charges through the nose for): Ill recycle the artwork in my RT, 2nd through 5th ed books, and Ill use the the extensive models I own. He wont know the difference, it'll all be new to him. Oh wait, that's what GW does now for the most part.

I don't have a problem and I'm not being at all hostile.

I simply think there's a lot of disingenous bitchery that goes around from "vets" saying they've been "priced out" when in fact the only thing they've been "priced out" of is buying new armies.

I'm actually right with you on GW not providing enough entertainment value. I can completely understand that. You're comparing the 'value' of that $50 or whatever you want to spend. There have been multiple times this month where I've had a spare $50 and opted to go to the range over buying a box of toy soliders. You're basically saying you've "grown out" of wargaming, which is entirely different than saying you've been priced out. Further, getting your son in the hobby is the exact method I was advocating for: a vet using their extensive collection and then augmenting it with a new box here and there.

And FWIW, GW has been commissioning a ton of new artwork and you've apparently not seen any of the new codecies, so the claim that they're simply "recycling" everything is false.

.

Cant say Ive grown out of wargaming, just GW's version of it. We still do FOW, and Space Hulk (1st/2nd ed) and Zombie Plague etc. From where I started with GW, to seeing the prices for things today, there is NO friggin way Im letting my kids get into it with family $$. Id kill to see new artwork in a GW book. All Ive seen is the same stuff from the other editions, with maybe new artwork that came with the Horus Heresy card game. My "burn out" isnt so much a price thing, as it is what am I getting for my money, that GW happens to want more of? I haven picked up a WD since the last one I looked at was more of a catalog than anything hobby related, and that started my closing the wallet to GW offerings. I saw some of the new flyers, and damn they are nice, but not "GW price" nice.

Maybe if I'd stayed GW centric, I'd still be onboard and pay the piper, but Im not and the price just seems to me, gouging. Almost like the ammo price spikes and 30rd magazine price hikes. I made some $$$ selling extra AR lowers I had as well as extra Pmags to people who didnt know any better.

 Spacemanvic wrote:
Reloading helps with the cost of shooting quite a bit. Just started casting 45ACP in order to shoot indoors.

Yeah, but at the moment the equipment to reload ammunition would price me out of my shooting hobby, so I choose the cheaper alternative for my means by buying up a box or two whenever I wish to go shoot.

Cost of entry is an issue for me as I see my son express an interest that he wont be able to fully explore as I wont be funding his GW foray. Yes, GW produces a few items that make me say "wow cool", but then I saw the prices they want and that kind of ends the browsing. He'll have to make do with my extensive collection. Shame, as this is something he an I can share, but then again, there are better cost effective things that he and I can do.

I share photography with my dad, it's something we do on family trips, and when it was easier for him to move around, when we would camp/hike. When I started, my dad gave me his backup SLR camera with a spare lens. He didn't want to drop the coin on a hobby that had my interests, but not full attention. As we did more, we decided to move to a DSLR and on the cheaper end. One of us still shoots in film and the other shoots digital. Your son is interested in your collection as it is now. Get him involved, pick up the mini rulebook for 20 bucks and the latest codex via an online discounter or from eBay. Work with your son on small games, there are plenty of dads on Dakka that have taught their sons this game (Gitsplitta is the one that comes to mind atm). And while the cool toys are something his sons want, they work with the bits good old dad has and get rewarded with interest and good behavior with new pieces.

Dunno, for me GW just doesn't merit their asking price. It's a hobby, so I went and found other things that are better spent. All I did was comment how I felt and my experience, and I get jumped for it. So much for the social aspect of "the hobby".

And that's what sticks in cincydooley's craw. People come in here and say, they've priced me out when they've got big collections and probably don't need to expand much if at all...

 cincydooley wrote:

I simply think there's a lot of disingenous bitchery that goes around from "vets" saying they've been "priced out" when in fact the only thing they've been "priced out" of is buying new armies.

I'm actually right with you on GW not providing enough entertainment value. I can completely understand that. You're comparing the 'value' of that $50 or whatever you want to spend. There have been multiple times this month where I've had a spare $50 and opted to go to the range over buying a box of toy soliders. You're basically saying you've "grown out" of wargaming, which is entirely different than saying you've been priced out.

This is pretty much what I feel. Both about others that claim to be priced out, and myself. Yes, prices go up, but we seldom complain as loudly about the diminishing fun. I mean, even for a person playing 40k three nights a week, how many armies do they need?

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Dunno, for me GW just doesn't merit their asking price. It's a hobby, so I went and found other things that are better spent. All I did was comment how I felt and my experience, and I get jumped for it. So much for the social aspect of "the hobby".

I think this is completely and 100% reasonable, but that's not typically what we hear people complaining about. We hear "GW is too much so I can't play anymore," which like I said before, sounds petulant. If you've got your army, you can totally still play. Not buying anything from them anymore? Sweet. I respect that. Don't see the value in what they're asking? Sweet. I can respect that too. But to say you're a "vet" and that you've been "priced out" is completely disingenuous.

I'm not going to argue anything based on valuation, because it's 100% subjective and we've been around the block with that here about 10 times .

We've not quite moved on to reloading out handgun ammo yet, but we definitely reload our shotgun ammo. Well, we when can find some red dot to do it with. Since my buddy has the 12g reloader, I'll probably have to buck up when we decide to attemp to reload our handgun ammo or if we end up getting 20g's.

Also, I really do apologize if I came off as hostile. I actually agree with most of what you say, and your method of 'staying in the game' is really the way I'd advocate for. Sorry if I came off more brusque than intended.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Dunno, for me GW just doesn't merit their asking price. It's a hobby, so I went and found other things that are better spent. All I did was comment how I felt and my experience, and I get jumped for it. So much for the social aspect of "the hobby".

I think this is completely and 100% reasonable, but that's not typically what we hear people complaining about. We hear "GW is too much so I can't play anymore," which like I said before, sounds petulant. If you've got your army, you can totally still play. Not buying anything from them anymore? Sweet. I respect that. Don't see the value in what they're asking? Sweet. I can respect that too. But to say you're a "vet" and that you've been "priced out" is completely disingenuous.

I'm not going to argue anything based on valuation, because it's 100% subjective and we've been around the block with that here about 10 times .

We've not quite moved on to reloading out handgun ammo yet, but we definitely reload our shotgun ammo. Well, we when can find some red dot to do it with. Since my buddy has the 12g reloader, I'll probably have to buck up when we decide to attemp to reload our handgun ammo or if we end up getting 20g's.

Also, I really do apologize if I came off as hostile. I actually agree with most of what you say, and your method of 'staying in the game' is really the way I'd advocate for. Sorry if I came off more brusque than intended.

Yeah thats exactly what I always said, GW IS fething expensive, but if you are a vet, there is absolutely no reason to stop playing, just stick with your current stuff. Even if you only have a couple thousand points worth of stuff, you can happily crack on playing and spend about what.. $100 a year?

 cincydooley wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Dunno, for me GW just doesn't merit their asking price. It's a hobby, so I went and found other things that are better spent. All I did was comment how I felt and my experience, and I get jumped for it. So much for the social aspect of "the hobby".

I think this is completely and 100% reasonable, but that's not typically what we hear people complaining about. We hear "GW is too much so I can't play anymore," which like I said before, sounds petulant. If you've got your army, you can totally still play. Not buying anything from them anymore? Sweet. I respect that. Don't see the value in what they're asking? Sweet. I can respect that too. But to say you're a "vet" and that you've been "priced out" is completely disingenuous.

I'm not going to argue anything based on valuation, because it's 100% subjective and we've been around the block with that here about 10 times .

We've not quite moved on to reloading out handgun ammo yet, but we definitely reload our shotgun ammo. Well, we when can find some red dot to do it with. Since my buddy has the 12g reloader, I'll probably have to buck up when we decide to attemp to reload our handgun ammo or if we end up getting 20g's.

Also, I really do apologize if I came off as hostile. I actually agree with most of what you say, and your method of 'staying in the game' is really the way I'd advocate for. Sorry if I came off more brusque than intended.

It's all good.

As a "vet", I have more than enough to play decent sized games. And the reason I got so many armies was because I really liked the models, and I wanted to give options for anyone willing to give the game a shot at the house (no gaming areas for at least 2 hours in any direction). Ive seen some models Id like to get, and my son expressed interest, but the asking price is just a non-starter for us. We'll still play, we just wont be buying, the price is out of what I consider "reasonable".

@ Alfndrate and cincydooley:

I lucked out. I had a set of Canadian moose antlers a buddy wanted and he traded a complete RCBS reloading set (RCBS Uniflow , RCBS Rock Crusher, RCBS 05 powder scale, Lyman case trimmer, Midway tumbler, 20lbs Walnut media, about 5 cans of powder and dies for 308, 30.06, 243 and 8mm Mauser). The moose antlers were 15pt 5ft spread 3 1/2 ft seat and about 1 1/2 ft palm. They came with the house and he'd been after them for 7 years. I promised the lady we bought the house from that I wouldnt sell the antlers, and my wife talked me into trading them instead. They took up alot of space hanging in the garage. With the ammo shortage, I did pretty damn well

Im working on my NRA trainer certs (pistol/rifle), so reloading in 9MM, 45ACP and 223 helps ALOT with the cost of shooting. Ive looked at reloading for 12ga, but the price for factory ammo isnt that bad, and Id have to buy a whole new setup and I dont shoot alot of shotgun (yet). Maybe if I find the time to get into 3-gun more, I might get something better than a Pardner Pump and invest in shotgun reloading.

Dang, how many of us shooters are there?
I don't reload. Most of my ammo is cheap Russian surplus.

I'm terribly confused - do you not have to reload to shoot again?

Forgive my ignorance, but it sounds like you reload the gun versus being sold a whole new gun.

 Davylove21 wrote:
I'm terribly confused - do you not have to reload to shoot again?

Forgive my ignorance, but it sounds like you reload the gun versus being sold a whole new gun.

Reload in this instance is talking about using the spent brass casings and putting in new bullets and powder. It's cheaper and offers more specific performances from the round but it's time consuming and requires special equipment.

 cincydooley wrote:
Peace out. Let us know if you dump your stuff.

I'll answer your question too:

The increase of $$ from GW has actually turned me to purchasing more from Forge World. That and I'm finally getting stuff 100% painted. But when GW releases kits I like, I still buy them. I simply budget accordingly and then make the purchase.

Cheers.

exactly the same! With GW's prices of their miniatures rising and rising and their quality (IMO) lowering, I have just said to myself would I rather spend that £50 on a warp beast or Angron. Well we both know the answer to that! Forge world is definitely the Bly real thing I buy now.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

WOW, that's a GREAT idea!! <sarcasm>

Guess you missed the part where I said:

So, we'll just use my 25 year collection and stick with 4th or 5th ed, whichever he agrees to. He can pick Tau, Nids, IG, Orks, SM (4 chapters to chose), GK or CSM.

No, I didn't miss it. I just think thats a poor excuse why you can no longer add a box or two to your collection every here and there.

Because he believes them to be overpriced. Why can't you understand that? Any number of people have tried to explain it to you and you just don't believe it to be possible. GW is outpricing what people are willing to pay for their models. It's not a "I can't afford it." It's "I don't want to pay that much for it." I think I'll go buy a donkey because it will be less stubborn than you.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Dang, how many of us shooters are there?
I don't reload. Most of my ammo is cheap Russian surplus.

Yeah, Tula and Wolf do NOT touch my firearms. I once had a student who got some 223 for my AR I lent him and the ammo left that thing dirty dirty dirty. Besides, I cant reload the steel case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Davylove21 wrote:
I'm terribly confused - do you not have to reload to shoot again?

Forgive my ignorance, but it sounds like you reload the gun versus being sold a whole new gun.

In this case, we're talking about the ammunition itself.

A round (cartridge) is the whole of the parts that make up ammunition.

The bullet itself is the projectile.

The primer is a wee button at the end of the case that when struck by the firing pin, ignites the gunpowder. Modern smokeless gunpowder by the way is NOT an explosive, it is a propellant. The pressure buildup of the burning powder is what propels the bullet through the barrel. Black powder however is an explosive, and used almost exclusively in older percussion/flint lock firearms.

The casing holds both the bullet as well as the primer and gunpowder. Usually made of brass or steel.

When reloading ammunition (as opposed to reloading a firearm), you deprime and size the case, prime it, then drop the precise amount of powder measured in grains into the case, then seat the bullet using a press.

 Surtur wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

WOW, that's a GREAT idea!! <sarcasm>

Guess you missed the part where I said:

So, we'll just use my 25 year collection and stick with 4th or 5th ed, whichever he agrees to. He can pick Tau, Nids, IG, Orks, SM (4 chapters to chose), GK or CSM.

No, I didn't miss it. I just think thats a poor excuse why you can no longer add a box or two to your collection every here and there.

Because he believes them to be overpriced. Why can't you understand that? Any number of people have tried to explain it to you and you just don't believe it to be possible. GW is outpricing what people are willing to pay for their models. It's not a "I can't afford it." It's "I don't want to pay that much for it." I think I'll go buy a donkey because it will be less stubborn than you.

Please. Ignore the other 5 or 6 posts involved in that particular conversation. No worries.

 Surtur wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

WOW, that's a GREAT idea!! <sarcasm>

Guess you missed the part where I said:

So, we'll just use my 25 year collection and stick with 4th or 5th ed, whichever he agrees to. He can pick Tau, Nids, IG, Orks, SM (4 chapters to chose), GK or CSM.

No, I didn't miss it. I just think thats a poor excuse why you can no longer add a box or two to your collection every here and there.

Because he believes them to be overpriced. Why can't you understand that? Any number of people have tried to explain it to you and you just don't believe it to be possible. GW is outpricing what people are willing to pay for their models. It's not a "I can't afford it." It's "I don't want to pay that much for it." I think I'll go buy a donkey because it will be less stubborn than you.

Thanks for the solidarity, but we put this to bed and made friends about 6 posts back

cincydooley wrote:
This rule is one of the few things that I really wish 40k would adopt from the the old AT-43 rules. Move your most forward model in a unit with measurement, and then move everything else without measuring but keeping coherency. Casual play certainly allows for this, but man, if you try that in a tournament setting there are definitely some folks that lose their gak. So I definitely feel your pain.

It was a league game with a gift certificate prize, so if we consolidated moving+fleet+charge, I'd be cheating as I'd get to know whether or not a particular charge succeeded or failed before I went on to another unit. The store actually made a big push with AT-43 and sold a ton of it, but the core group of gamers there really do like the painting side of the hobby too much for prepaints, so it didn't last. There were some seriously good rules ideas in there though.

cincydooley wrote:I simply think there's a lot of disingenous bitchery that goes around from "vets" saying they've been "priced out" when in fact the only thing they've been "priced out" of is buying new armies.

I actually think this is an important distinction. For a lot of people part of the fun is collecting and building and the blue sky of limitless potential future projects. But when you come to realize that it's simply not true that you're going to be able to build an army when the inspiration strikes because you can't bring yourself to pay the asking price (even if you could easily afford it), it shuts down part of the fun. Many vets see value in the idea of continually starting a new project as one is finished for years to come and being priced out shuts this all down.

I'm a vet and I currently have more disposable income than I ever have had but that doesn't change the fact that when I look at a $75 box with 3 40mm base models in it and know that those 3 models cost less than 150 points on the table I have no inclination to buy them.

It's not about not being able to afford them, it's about not feeling like the product is worth the price tag. Yes this is subjective but it seems more and more people feel this way these days.
That is how we are being priced out, increased prices with no increase in quality means we don't want to buy anymore.

Why is it people who quit GW games feel the need to rant about why, yet people who quit any other game system are fine to leave it at quitting and moving on?

Just a weird habit I've noticed. It's like when a Superman movie comes up, everyone who hates Superman feels the need to say they hate him, but any other superhero movie and people generally keep their mouth shut and move on.

Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I am a vet and i refuse to buy a basic marines squad because it doubled in price, yes i have the means to buy it, but it goes against my stingy Dutch genes!

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I am a vet and i refuse to buy a basic marines squad because it doubled in price, yes i have the means to buy it, but it goes against my stingy Dutch genes!

Cool story bro. If you can get a game of Dust in over there, then by all means buy the model for the game you have the opportunity to play. We don't need to hear about it if you decide to quit 40k. Go sell your gak on eBay and be done with it.

 Polonius wrote:
Oh, I've straight up called people liars to their face when they claim they were "priced out." The cost to merely keep playing is pretty marginal.

There's a difference between being "priced out" in the sense of not being able to afford to play the game, and being "priced out" in the sense of not seeing enough value in a product to purchase it.

Veteran players and customers may feel pressure to keep armies updated, perhaps to stay competitive, or to have access to the current version of the rules. But if you do not feel that the price of those products is justified, and therefore do not wish to justify that price by purchasing said product, whether or not you can afford to buy it is immaterial. You can still be "priced out" in the sense that you refuse to purchase new products at the current prices, and not purchasing those products makes it difficult to get reliable or enjoyable use out of the products you already own.

This is not to say that you can't just play 2nd ed 40K in your basement with your pals. My point is that it might be unfair to call someone a liar if they feel that the current pricing structure makes playing the game enough of a hassle to sap enjoyment out of it.

I can absolutely afford to buy, say, the new Warriors of Chaos Army Book, but I won't. Now, I am not "priced out" because I wouldn't buy it if it was 10 dollars or 100 dollars (I am currently boycotting GW). But leaving that aside, because I refuse to purchase said product (which could be due to what I perceive to be an unreasonably high price tag), playing in the WHFB league at the FLGS is problematic on the verge of not being worth it. I don't know what the new rules are, I don't have anything to reference them at the table, but I am expected to use those rules nonetheless. Could it be done, sure, but is it worth it? Probably not. If I didn't buy the new army book because of the price, I would say that being "priced out" of the game is a fair characterization.

Even though price was only one of a melange of interrelated factors in the above scenario, ultimately it would have led to not playing the game, losing interest in it, and moving on. For a long time fan and customer, going through such an experience can be very frustrating. I don't like the prices, I don't think they are fair, they are way higher than they used to be, I don't want to legitimize those prices by buying the products, and so I feel that I am left with a Sophie's Choice of being suckered into a crappy deal because of my extant fandom and interest in the game (which makes me feel used and ripped off by a company I thought I had a positive relationship with), or walking away from something that has interested me for a long time.

The fact that I can go "rogue" and enjoy a new, personally created experience with the products does little or nothing to mitigate a feeling of being betrayed and taken advantage of. So I read "priced out" as "feeling taken advantage of." My annual income has little to do with what causes those negative feelings, which would probably be felt even if I arranged a 6th ed WHFB campaign in my basement, simply because I would have had to walk away from or significantly alter an established relationship with the company, if not the product itself as it existed at the time of my purchase.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I am a vet and i refuse to buy a basic marines squad because it doubled in price, yes i have the means to buy it, but it goes against my stingy Dutch genes!

Cool story bro. If you can get a game of Dust in over there, then by all means buy the model for the game you have the opportunity to play. We don't need to hear about it if you decide to quit 40k. Go sell your gak on eBay and be done with it.

but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I rest my case, are you related to Phill Fish in anyway?

People saying the game's becoming too expensive... are you forgetting that even across things like the necron codex change for 10 years all your models (bar phariahs) are still compatible?

I mean, all they added was a flyer, Anni barges, Ghost Arks, CCBs, Lychguards, Deathmarks, and the rest is useless anyway. I could buy 3 flyers, 3 anni barges, 3 ghost arks, 3 CCBs, 5 lychguard, and 5 deathmark all for less than $250 on ebay.

I spend roughly $200-300pa on my gaming computer just so I can play stuff on high.

 -Loki- wrote:
Why is it people who quit GW games feel the need to rant about why, yet people who quit any other game system are fine to leave it at quitting and moving on?

Just a weird habit I've noticed. It's like when a Superman movie comes up, everyone who hates Superman feels the need to say they hate him, but any other superhero movie and people generally keep their mouth shut and move on.

I think there are two possible explanations:

it might be confirmation bias on your part. You're paying attention to 40k and thus notice when people say that about 40k more than some other game you're not paying attention to.

Or

The second option might be that people are quitting 40k at an increasing rate and thus you are hearing about it more.

 cincydooley wrote:
We don't need to hear about it if you decide to quit 40k. Go sell your gak on eBay and be done with it.

People love 40k and when they figure out that they just can't make it work for them anymore, they often want to express something about that. I don't play 40k anymore for a variety of reasons, but I still love the Black Library fiction as well as the FFG 40k RPG books. I keep waiting and watching for something about the 40k miniature game to change so that it would work for me again. It hasn't come and when other people also finally throw in the towel and stop buying 40k stuff, it's a discussion I want to participate in.

So if we're not breaking Dakka's rules and more than one person wants to participate in a thread, who are you to tell people not to discuss it?

I never said people should shut up, I'm jsut saying people who quit other games do shut up.

I'd honestly like those people to speak up as well.

Like you said, forums are for discussion. The discussion has been the same for a while, it's time to add some variety. There's definitely people quitting other games - you see it in places like swap shop. 'Quitting for X, need to sell all of my stuff for Y'. I'd just like to hear a bit more from the other sides of the fences.

I think it's probably that people care more about 40k and don't actually want to quit. They wish things were different and want to talk about where they think things went off the rails.

If it seems like the same points are brought up again and again, it's probably because it's humans reacting to the same situation again and again.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I am a vet and i refuse to buy a basic marines squad because it doubled in price, yes i have the means to buy it, but it goes against my stingy Dutch genes!

Cool story bro. If you can get a game of Dust in over there, then by all means buy the model for the game you have the opportunity to play. We don't need to hear about it if you decide to quit 40k. Go sell your gak on eBay and be done with it.

but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I rest my case, are you related to Phill Fish in anyway?

You can choose to ignore me within your forum options. I suggest you do so.

But, you know, if you really think bold lettering does the job instead, by all means do that.

It isn't simple economics. I have no reason to buy an SSU Heavy Walker as no one in my area plays the game and I've no interest in playing against myself.

Simple logic.

Jehan-reznor if you're okay with buying miniatures for a game that no one in your area plays, that is okay, but stop making worthless nothing statements to people that don't share your view.

Simple content would be nice.

We've covered this ground before. You know nothing about Jehan-reznor's gaming situation in Japan. You don't know who he games with, what rules he might use the SSU Walker with or anything else. You don't even know if he plays miniature wargames. Lots of people buy models and miniatures to paint and not to play games with. Or he could be buying it for use in 40k.

So what did he do? He didn't bring up any of this very individualistic factors and instead compared the actual models and their price.

And what was your response? To try to tell him what he can and cannot talk about and to bring in the idiosyncratic factors to muddy the waters again. Given your response, i think his initial diagnosis of dickishness was pretty accurate.



I can totally see why he picked that model over the GW sentinel. Cheaper as well given the prices where he is.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I am a vet and i refuse to buy a basic marines squad because it doubled in price, yes i have the means to buy it, but it goes against my stingy Dutch genes!

Cool story bro. If you can get a game of Dust in over there, then by all means buy the model for the game you have the opportunity to play. We don't need to hear about it if you decide to quit 40k. Go sell your gak on eBay and be done with it.

but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I rest my case, are you related to Phill Fish in anyway?

You can choose to ignore me within your forum options. I suggest you do so.

But, you know, if you really think bold lettering does the job instead, by all means do that.

It isn't simple economics. I have no reason to buy an SSU Heavy Walker as no one in my area plays the game and I've no interest in playing against myself.

Simple logic.

Jehan-reznor if you're okay with buying miniatures for a game that no one in your area plays, that is okay, but stop making worthless nothing statements to people that don't share your view.

Simple content would be nice.

How about you learn some manners and stop being demeaning to people who have a different opinion than your own.
I didn't knew that you were the thread police "Did you read the thread title by the way?"
My example was perfectly reasonable within the scope of this thread.
I will not use the ignore button, because i have quite a thick skin.

Even if no-one plays the game in my area, what has that to do with anything, oh it was an example of a nothing statement, thank you.

Tone it down a bit please folks.

Thanks

The need to "announce" leaving a system or reducing purchases is because people need to leave some kind of protest in the small hope things change.
40k was fantastic around the time of 3rd edition (no comment on that rules version though...), people were excited and armies were churning out like crazy.
Prices were about right at the time, GW was communicating well, holding a ton of events and had their own forums and a HUGE amount of articles for download for free.

It all changed.

People now can only do a direct model comparison with other companies and GW since the majority of fringe benefits they used to offer are gone.

I anticipate that if they start "expiring" (writing out, made ineffective, point costly) models in new codexes in favor of new models this "pricing out" will be epidemic.

I will buy the occasional box as mentioned and hope I am wrong for the next SM codex.

<<edit: format fix>>

My point is that is it not 'simple economics' as Jehen-reznor stated. There are an abundance of other factors, of which we've already discussed AT LENGTH, that make it far more than a decision of "simple economics."

Dumbing it down to a statement like "it's simple economics" ignores of all of those other factors into an ignorant and dismissive comment, not that different from when someone pulls out the ever-popular "white knight" or "fanboy" statement.

Hell, we've even talked about how many of us have made those VALUE BASED choices to spend out money on other hobbies and not on GW products.

To answer your original question, Jehen:

1. You should buy the Sentinel instead of the SSU walker if you like how it looks more.

2. You should buy the Sentinel instead of the SSU walker if you plan on using it to play in 40k, particularly in a tournament setting.

You are not, however, the arbiter of what is "overpriced" and your little dig and insinuation that anyone doing so is wasting their money is just as--whats the word you used-- ah yes, dickish as anything I'vthat's been said on this thread.

You don't see value in GW anymore? That's fantastic. More power to you. Spend your money elsewhere.

But it becomes continually tiresome that anyone that DOES spend money with GW is condescended to like they're fiscal lunatics for doing so.

I can see the point that those who choose to protest by taking their dollars away and publicly announce it (just so it is noticed) get upset seeing others still reward "bad behavior" of the company.

That is the problem with people having independent thought.

The next logical question for each individual is where would the "last straw" be?

It is at a threshold where I care now but in a year I think it would be reduced to "meh". My Robotech stuff would be in by then...

<<edit: spelling...>>

 Talizvar wrote:

I anticipate that if they start "expiring" (writing out, made ineffective, point costly) models in new codexes in favor of new models this "pricing out" will be epidemic.

;

Now I think that's certainly a reasonable concern, but have we had any precedent of that yet?

It seems like it's just been the addition of new units, not the rendering obsolete of existing units, thats happened with the new army books.

Tau:

Kroot got a little worse, but are still effective.
Vespid are about as bad as they've ever been
The Fliers are questionably useful (I'd argue they really aren't)
The Riptide is the Bee's Knees.

Eldar
Still tons of ways to build an army.
Wraithguard/blades simply got a plastic kit. Not OP at all
Wraithknight is a great model, but rules wise just okay. Certainly not a necessity.
Dire Avengers still great.
Guardians still useful.
Jetbikes still fantastic.

Dark Angels
Probably the most recent army with an 'auto include' in the boombox skimmer. It's no Helldrake, but there's a ton of utility in them
I don't have a ton of play experience with them, but still three viable ways to build an army. Nothing "appears" to be made obsolete.

Chaos
The helldrake, obviously, is an auto-include if you're list building.
Other than that, lots of viable army building options.
Sadly, Khorne still kinda blows and Nurgle is still the best. No real change there.
Warp Talons (new unit) are pretty garbage.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

I anticipate that if they start "expiring" (writing out, made ineffective, point costly) models in new codexes in favor of new models this "pricing out" will be epidemic.

;

Now I think that's certainly a reasonable concern, but have we had any precedent of that yet?

It seems like it's just been the addition of new units, not the rendering obsolete of existing units, thats happened with the new army books.
.

Carnifex in favour of Trygon.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

I anticipate that if they start "expiring" (writing out, made ineffective, point costly) models in new codexes in favor of new models this "pricing out" will be epidemic.

;

Now I think that's certainly a reasonable concern, but have we had any precedent of that yet?

It seems like it's just been the addition of new units, not the rendering obsolete of existing units, thats happened with the new army books.
.

Carnifex in favour of Trygon.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. The poor Carni got shot with the nerf gun, beat with the nerf stick, and was then buried in a grave of nerf.

Maybe we'll see that change whenever the new Nids book suddenly arrives. Then again, I'm hoping to see both genestealers and gaunts have their costs slashed so I can play against a huge terrifying nid swarm army.

I think the idea of 'the price got to me' is that most people still loves the hobby. But the restrictions (price) has made it impossible for them (me included) to enjoy it the way its meant to be, a few years ago this is really not a factor since prices were low enough to be justified.

The reason why we don't see too much of this type to complain from other hobbies is because the prices are increased marginally and acceptable to the general player base. Also, most game systems are structured to minimise the impact.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
I anticipate that if they start "expiring" (writing out, made ineffective, point costly) models in new codexes in favor of new models this "pricing out" will be epidemic.

Now I think that's certainly a reasonable concern, but have we had any precedent of that yet?
It seems like it's just been the addition of new units, not the rendering obsolete of existing units, thats happened with the new army books.

I agree with your analysis of the present state of affairs, I was thinking in the future if GW does not feel the new models are driving up sales they may expire a few key ones which I have seen codex to codex. (I had never quite forgiven them taking away Juggernaughts from CSM codex so long ago, but some is forgiven due to allies).

They can always "heroic scale" another unit like they did the terminators (or obliterators... I have three of the little guys, fun fielding those), my old metal termies look like squats (without the egg shape).

They have been reasonable so far, this is my pessimistic future telling: I like it when I am wrong.

 cincydooley wrote:


Dark Angels
Probably the most recent army with an 'auto include' in the boombox skimmer. It's no Helldrake, but there's a ton of utility in them
I don't have a ton of play experience with them, but still three viable ways to build an army. Nothing "appears" to be made obsolete.

Both the configuration (no TH/SS sarges) and viability of DW only forces has changed in DA. DA came out of the new codex pretty well in terms of old armies being playable, most of their stuff is usefull not counting the trash tier fliers and they don't have many under/overcosted units. Mainly you just lose synergy.

While most units will still have rules throughout changing editions I can't say my three screamer killer models are very usefull anymore.

Over time most core units will be changed into trap units and while most units can be viable in the right configuration if you are using old models then you probably can't create that configuration without buying more defeating the object of the excersise.

How is that DA flyer? I've never played against one, so that would lead me to believe that the answer is "underwhelming."

Expense has always been an issue with me. I work hard and have a pretty good income but I can’t even keep up with building an army how I would want. The fact that I can’t just buy a Hydra without ordering something from forge world or some secondary seller is a huge annoyance to me. The last draw though for me was FOB. I play IG and went undefeated till the last round when I watched a wraith knight and lord kill half my army in two turns while wave serpents and warp spiders killed the other half. My 1st two games were not easy Orks round one and Tau round two. Tau game was facing them on short board edges, it was murder. I got boarded by Eldar. I have never been boarded. It was a huge blow to me. I found I had to finally say that GW is building rules around modals and codex creep won. Maybe I sound like a sore loser but I have never lost over 40 models in a shooting faze. Dark reapers destroying my tanks while wraith knight killed guardsmen quicker then sin. I then used two wraith knights against several peoples full armies and one 3 games using only 2 wraith knights.

 Talizvar wrote:
The need to "announce" leaving a system or reducing purchases is because people need to leave some kind of protest in the small hope things change.
40k was fantastic around the time of 3rd edition (no comment on that rules version though...), people were excited and armies were churning out like crazy.
Prices were about right at the time, GW was communicating well, holding a ton of events and had their own forums and a HUGE amount of articles for download for free.

It all changed.

People now can only do a direct model comparison with other companies and GW since the majority of fringe benefits they used to offer are gone.

I anticipate that if they start "expiring" (writing out, made ineffective, point costly) models in new codexes in favor of new models this "pricing out" will be epidemic.

I will buy the occasional box as mentioned and hope I am wrong for the next SM codex.

<<edit: format fix>>

Don't know about writing out units, but other then that completely agree. If the majority speak out and make economic threats, companies usually back down. Look at the Xbox 1 DRM debacle and the EA online passes backdown.

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
Expense has always been an issue with me. I work hard and have a pretty good income but I can’t even keep up with building an army how I would want. The fact that I can’t just buy a Hydra without ordering something from forge world or some secondary seller is a huge annoyance to me. The last draw though for me was FOB. I play IG and went undefeated till the last round when I watched a wraith knight and lord kill half my army in two turns while wave serpents and warp spiders killed the other half. My 1st two games were not easy Orks round one and Tau round two. Tau game was facing them on short board edges, it was murder. I got boarded by Eldar. I have never been boarded. It was a huge blow to me. I found I had to finally say that GW is building rules around modals and codex creep won. Maybe I sound like a sore loser but I have never lost over 40 models in a shooting faze. Dark reapers destroying my tanks while wraith knight killed guardsmen quicker then sin. I then used two wraith knights against several peoples full armies and one 3 games using only 2 wraith knights.

So you're complaining that the Str10 model was killing guardsmen after you let it get into CC with them? And that Dark Reapers, a heavy weapons unit designed to destroy tanks, destroyed your tanks? Hmmm......

Honestly, I don't think the Wraithknight is THAT good. It's solid, for sure, but it's also a considerable amount of points (as are the Riptides).

Plus, there are plenty of recent instances of new models that, quite frankly, aren't that great (Tau Fliers, Grey Knight Carlos, DA Flyer, Maulerfiend, etc...)

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
Expense has always been an issue with me. I work hard and have a pretty good income but I can’t even keep up with building an army how I would want. The fact that I can’t just buy a Hydra without ordering something from forge world or some secondary seller is a huge annoyance to me. The last draw though for me was FOB. I play IG and went undefeated till the last round when I watched a wraith knight and lord kill half my army in two turns while wave serpents and warp spiders killed the other half. My 1st two games were not easy Orks round one and Tau round two. Tau game was facing them on short board edges, it was murder. I got boarded by Eldar. I have never been boarded. It was a huge blow to me. I found I had to finally say that GW is building rules around modals and codex creep won. Maybe I sound like a sore loser but I have never lost over 40 models in a shooting faze. Dark reapers destroying my tanks while wraith knight killed guardsmen quicker then sin. I then used two wraith knights against several peoples full armies and one 3 games using only 2 wraith knights.

We all get wrecked at some point. A few years ago in 5th, I went to a doubles tournament, and we absolutely smashed all our games except one, where a Space Wolves army managed to table our 3 Leman Russ and 3 Vendetta army by turn 3, at 1500 points. Back then I saw Wolves as incredibly overpowered. Nowadays, I just know that on that day those guys got incredibly lucky and we made a ton of mistakes - Vendettas should have used their scout move instead of standing still, and the game would have gone the total opposite way if we had fired first.

And seriously, I've been playing the new Dark Angels Codex, and as far as I'm concerned, its useless to me. I've played many games this year with it and I've come to the conclusion its not worth the effort. I can't play mechanized Greenwing with Deathwing support competitively at all, even though DA, next to Space Wolves, are in the best position for doing it. Deathwing on its own isn't competitive either. Basically, my two favorite and most frequent playstyles were killed with 6th, and CA did nothing to help. I expect nothing will change with C:SM.

I don't really like the gameplay of 6th compared to 5th altogether, though I am still clinging on because I have my Orks, Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard that are still pretty playable. The prices don't matter to me, the enjoyment I get from building and painting new models far outstrips how empty my pockets feel afterwards.

Plus, I hate the art direction of Warmahordes and Infinity, while Dust Tactics and Drop Zone Commander have non-existent communities around where I live, even though I now live near one of the biggest FLGS' in southern England.

When I went to a fluffy campaign weekend a few months ago and saw a Warmachine tournament that was running simultaneously, the fact that everyone in the 40k Campaign had fully painted armies whereas 99% of the Warmachine players had made next to no effort to paint their armies (and believe me, that is no joke or exaggeration) was enough to put me off the prospect of trying Warmachine for good. Sure, I'll play with guys who don't paint their armies, but I enjoy playing against painted armies a lot more.

MadMarkMagee wrote:
Don't know about writing out units, but other then that completely agree. If the majority speak out and make economic threats, companies usually back down. Look at the Xbox 1 DRM debacle and the EA online passes backdown.

EA games are a complete package though, the investment in prior product does not give you incentive to buy more.

GW is a rather special case, they have a strong internal culture and have cut themselves off from most forms of feedback so I am unsure if they hear "voice of customer", "voice of shareholders" appears to be the primary focus.
They also make so many internal changes that customers moving elsewhere or throttling back on purchases may get lost in the noise or be explained away.

But yes DRM makes electronic gamers see red like 40k players and Matthew Ward codexes.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

while Dust Tactics and Drop Zone Commander have non-existent communities around where I live, even though I now live near one of the biggest FLGS' in southern England.

This is one the points I've really been trying to make, but have apparently been failing to articulate well. It doesn't matter how inexpensive a model is if you can't find anyone to play the game with. I actually think the Dust Tactics/Warfare rules are really fun, and the models are delightfully affordable. So much so that I've demoed it for FFG the past two years at GenCon. But that doesn't change the fact that I can't find a single person to play it with in my area.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:

GW is a rather special case, they have a strong internal culture and have cut themselves off from most forms of feedback so I am unsure if they hear "voice of customer", "voice of shareholders" appears to be the primary focus.
They also make so many internal changes that customers moving elsewhere or throttling back on purchases may get lost in the noise or be explained away.

They seem to be at least tangentially aware of that voice, as the CEO preamble addresses some of those "sky is falling" type comments that are frequent on these boards.

So, we return to the ultimate point, GW is mostly healthy because of the bulk they have acquired during their uncontested years, most LGS and players will stick to them only because, getting a game is more probable, so they do not try other things, they do not look outside and fulfill a self proclaimed prophesy.

I would love to leave 40k, however its hard to find any one who doesnt play it, id like to play Warmachine/Hordes,Dust . I made my first purchase in about three months and it was 40k. I had a Circle Orboso box in my hand and thought....Who the hell am i going to play with? Asked the guy at the counter if any one plays and i was told not really. But that i could host a game and they would let people know. I said screw it and bought a flying church. A very expensive flying church at that.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
So, we return to the ultimate point, GW is mostly healthy because of the bulk they have acquired during their uncontested years, most LGS and players will stick to them only because, getting a game is more probable, so they do not try other things, they do not look outside and fulfill a self proclaimed prophesy.

Good summary.
Is it more traditional to say "This!"?
Do not forget that their IP for "fluff bunnies" and gray zone rules for "TFG" to exploit: they have something for everyone!

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
So, we return to the ultimate point, GW is mostly healthy because of the bulk they have acquired during their uncontested years, most LGS and players will stick to them only because, getting a game is more probable, so they do not try other things, they do not look outside and fulfill a self proclaimed prophesy.

I mean, yeah. Pretty much. If you want to try and get a game to kickoff in your area, chances are you're going to have to get two starter armies. Thankfully a few systems offer this easily (Warmahordes, Flames, Dust, Heavy Gear, Bolt Action) but many don't. I'd love if Infinity and Malifaux had starter boxes. Additionally, to get a new game to launch, you have to convince other people to buy in. That takes a fair amount of effort, and has no guarantees that it will work.

And Talizvar is absolutely right that the fluff is still a HUUUUUGE draw for people with the GW IPs of 40k and Fantasy. With their expansion into digital and Black Library, theres a great chance your first introduction to the IP isn't even through the miniatures game. Maybe it's through the Warhammer Quest app that was featured on the front page of iTunes. Maybe it was through one of the novels with the great cover art at your local book seller on the new fiction releases shelf. Maybe it was because you're a PSN+ member and you got to download Space Marine for free. It's incredibly easy to get into the GW IP without laying hands on a miniature. The same can NOT be said for any of the other game systems (though Privateer's KS will certainly broaden their reach).

I must admit I find it strange when people from large urban centres say they can't find opponents for the smaller systems. There are over 2 million people in the greater Cincinnati area. And SoCal is just full of people. And then I only have a few hundred thousand people within a couple hours drive and have endless opportunities for all these other games. I used to live in the 2nd largest city in Canada and had endless opportunities to play these other games as well.

Is this just a result of screw-Canada pricing driving people away to other miniature games? If so, US and UK prices are catching up, so soon you too will have the gaming options you want.

And with the internet, it's never been easier to get in contact with other local gamers.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I must admit I find it strange when people from large urban centres say they can't find opponents for the smaller systems. There are over 2 million people in the greater Cincinnati area. And SoCal is just full of people. And then I only have a few hundred thousand people within a couple hours drive and have endless opportunities for all these other games. I used to live in the 2nd largest city in Canada and had endless opportunities to play these other games as well.

Is this just a result of screw-Canada pricing driving people away to other miniature games? If so, US and UK prices are catching up, so soon you too will have the gaming options you want.

And with the internet, it's never been easier to get in contact with other local gamers.

So in Greater Cincy we have....4 major game stores that carry miniature games. We also have a GW.

GW Games
40k and Fantasy are the primary games played at all of them. There are regular 40k leagues at 3 of the 4. There are regular Fantasy Leagues at 3 of the 4 and the GW. 3 of the 4 stores are partner level GW stores. The last store is a GW store at the level below partner.

Privateer Press Games
1 of the 4 has a regular Warmahordes League while another is starting one. 0 of the 4 stores (obviously the GW doesn't) carry a full selection of the Warmahordes lines. 2 do special orders almost exclusively. 1 carries starter boxes and a small rack of assorted blisters. 1 doesn't appear to have gotten any new product in around 6 months.

Flames of War
1 of the 4 carry the game. Another did, but liquidated their stock in late 2012 because it didn't sell. 0 of 4 have a league.

Malifaux
1 of 4 carries the full line. 2 more carry starter boxes and rules only. 1 of 4 had a very popular league (18 partipants?) that has died down recently (I'm hoping it will restart once Me2 releases)

X-Wing

4 of 4 carry stock. 2 of 4 have leagues. 2 of 4 hosted regional qualifiers.

Infinity

2 of 4 Carry random stock (mostly special orders that weren't picked up). 0 of 4 have leagues.

Dust
1 Carries the full line (they're a board game store mostly, so they carry all FFG) 2 more have smatterings of product. 0 of 4 have leagues.


Honestly, most of the non 40k or Warmahordes games that get pushed--and this is going to be a shocker I'm sure since I'm apparently a GW WhiteFanboiKnightApologist -- are done so by myself or one of the owners of one of the LGSs. We've played Freebooters Fate (which I adore), DZC, Dystopian, Firestorm, Bolt Action, Bushido, and HellDorado at that particular store, but they simply don't "catch." Despite the low entry costs for some of them, it still takes a lot to actually get a following up and running. I TRIED to get Dust up and running (quite hard--again, I demoed this for the past two years for FFG at GenCon), but it didn't catch, despite the cheaper entry point and the pre-primed models.

I agree with you, I should have a wide Varity of people to play with on any system of games. Keep in mind bigger city=more people=less work. Not allot of people right now want to go blow 100 bucks to start a game when that can pay the electric bill for next month. 100 isn’t that much to start any hobby really. But we are talking about little plastic "toys". I maybe have two shops within a 45 min drive around me. Do I want to drive for an hour or longer to go play somewhere else, no. When I was in Albuquerque NM I had a ton of shops to go to. People there seemed to play a little of everything. I had six stores within 20 min of me. When I moved back to Cali I thought I would have the same. OO have things changed. All the old shops I went to went belly up. Every one sold off their stuff because no one felt like driving an hour or 2 to go play. Most people held games at their house but to be honest it wasn’t the same. Most of the people that play HAVE been playing for awhile. So they have a nice inventory of items already. Most NEW players are using second hand armies. That are not so hot on the table, it’s not fun to play with them because if you beat them they give up on the hobby. Due to lack of funds and not being able to purchase anything to make their army stronger. If they can’t find it used and cheap, then they have to save and at that point they just give up. I think GW should make some sort of pre posed cheap starter sets for each army. As an intro box to 40k. I know DV is pretty much that but not everyone wants to play DA or CSM. If they offered something like that I’m sure we would all see more players. Like 400 points of already posed for every faction.

Maybe it was the years of paying a 50%+ premium over US prices that destroyed much of the GW related gaming community up here. Even those that did play just couldn't justify buying locally compared to getting stuff from US sellers. Then local store sales dropped and they started heavily pushing other lines that could compete with GW on price from US sellers. One store switched to pushing MTG heavily and replaced the 40k day with a regular MTG tournament. Another has just started running them concurrently and the MTG attendance is growing while the 40k attendance is shrinking.

But also what I'm talking about is connecting with other gamers online and then meeting somewhere to play. I find it so easy to do that here and where I was living previously.

Inb4 Privateer Press fanboys.

Also, yeah. The prices got to me too. Which is why I haven't bought anything from GW directly. I either get it from ebay, like my Dark Elves or my FLGS. Which sure puts some $$ in their pocket but i'm willing to do a small evil if it helps my shop.

Ive already put up a "Looking to learn dust in riverside" and "Looking to play warmachine/hordes in riverside" Thread up in the find a game section. No one responded to it. I have yet to try pure Warmachine/horde forms.

 frozenwastes wrote:

But also what I'm talking about is connecting with other gamers online and then meeting somewhere to play. I find it so easy to do that here and where I was living previously.

Well right, thats of course true. But there's a lot to be said for having a dedicated community for a game where easy pickup games are possible. And honestly, if I'm going to play one of the fringe games, I prefer to do with someone I know so we can stumble through rules and whatnot together, often in a basement, often while having a few adult beverages.

Just because you are able to make these purchases, or choose them over something else DOESN'T mean that they are not over priced...

 cincydooley wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

But also what I'm talking about is connecting with other gamers online and then meeting somewhere to play. I find it so easy to do that here and where I was living previously.

Well right, thats of course true. But there's a lot to be said for having a dedicated community for a game where easy pickup games are possible. And honestly, if I'm going to play one of the fringe games, I prefer to do with someone I know so we can stumble through rules and whatnot together, often in a basement, often while having a few adult beverages.

I agree. I’m still new to my area, I have networked as much as I could and came across a few people who I get along with. But they are vet players who are so sunk into 40k ,it would be like up rooting a tree with a plastic shovel to get them to play something else, and be serious about it.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
Just because you are able to make these purchases, or choose them over something else DOESN'T mean that they are not over priced...

This is a subjective call.
Whatever the market will bear.
Feel like we are in a game of "chicken" with GW seeing how high they can go until their customers flinch away.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
Just because you are able to make these purchases, or choose them over something else DOESN'T mean that they are not over priced...

Starter box for warmachine is 50 bucks for a army you can actualy play with!! Anything added to it is an extra not a "need to play it to be legit". You get a mini rule book to. Plus the mins in the box are worth double the value! Dust is super cheap a unit of guys for 20 bucks yes please. Build a army that you can enjoy and compete with for under or a litle over a 100, yes please.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
Just because you are able to make these purchases, or choose them over something else DOESN'T mean that they are not over priced...

Hey welcome to the convo. I'm assuming the rest if the thread was TL;DR for you as we've circa led this drain about three times already now. Value and the phrase "overpriced" are completely subjective.

SheSpits wrote:
Ive already put up a "Looking to learn dust in riverside" and "Looking to play warmachine/hordes in riverside" Thread up in the find a game section. No one responded to it. I have yet to try pure Warmachine/horde forms.

If you're looking to start playing Privateer Press or Wyrd games, each has a volunteer program (FFG might as well) in which you can contact someone and talk about getting a demo. Both companies have a list of their Pressgangers (PP) and Henchmen (Wyrd) so that you can contact them about getting a demo.

Alternatively, do what I did. I took my Malifaux* stuff to the FLGS in my area (I had just moved) and set up to demo. I got a few people hooked and now have a small group of gamers.

* - You can use w/e game you wish to start playing.

A combination of the ever-rising prices and dislike of the feel of 6th edition stopped me from playing WH40k. Not the power creep/codexs/rules. The spam of fliers, large monster models, and the 30%+ price increase that I've seen since I started playing is what stopped me.

I priced out an IG army back in 4th ed, then in the new 5th ed codex, and now in 6th. Not at all.

SheSpits wrote:
Ive already put up a "Looking to learn dust in riverside" and "Looking to play warmachine/hordes in riverside" Thread up in the find a game section. No one responded to it. I have yet to try pure Warmachine/horde forms.

Go try on the Privateer Press forums. And the FFG ones. And boardgame geek maybe. Start a general hobby gaming facebook group for your city.

As for Cincy's approach of demoing games, it sounds more like "seeing what sticks" rather than a decided effort to pick one and develop a community for it.

SheSpits wrote:

 AtariAssasin wrote:
Just because you are able to make these purchases, or choose them over something else DOESN'T mean that they are not over priced...

Starter box for warmachine is 50 bucks for a army you can actualy play with!! Anything added to it is an extra not a "need to play it to be legit". You get a mini rule book to. Plus the mins in the box are worth double the value! Dust is super cheap a unit of guys for 20 bucks yes please. Build a army that you can enjoy and compete with for under or a litle over a 100, yes please.

I would have added this to my post, but it bears noting that the 50 dollar boxes only come with quickstart rules. For the mini rulebook, you need to buy the 2 player starter boxes, which are 100 bucks (for about 200 dollars worth of stuff). If you wish to grow a Warmachine/Hordes community without the aid of a nearby pressganger, it might be worth it to buy and paint this up yourself.

 cincydooley wrote:

Hey welcome to the convo. I'm assuming the rest if the thread was TL;DR for you as we've circa led this drain about three times already now. Value and the phrase "overpriced" are completely subjective.

Yep. Let's revisit the sentinel and KV3

GW sentienl:

Is a model kit. So if you enjoy building kits, you'll get more enjoyment out of it.
Is priced higher.
Is smaller

FFG KV-3

Isn't a model kit, so if you want to get right to painting, there's little prep work involved
Is priced lower
Is larger

Seems like it hinges on whether or not you see pre-assembled and pre-primed as a feature or not. Since that's subjective, what about the other two? Those aren't subjective, but actual measurements you can compare. The volume of the model and the price are numbers.

As for gaming use, I think doing a 40k army with vehicles from Dust Tactics is a great idea. Others will disagree.

There are so many subjective factors, that our only points of comparison are the objective ones. And for those, FFG definitely beats GW on price.

My only concern would be spending the money to start a force (in either system), and have zero to 1 person show interest. I would hate to have a rep come down and I be the only person there, I would feel bad and buy that nice person lunch and apologize lol. I’m sure a few people would join the demo. Thanks every one! I’m going to contact my FLGS and ask for permission to do so.

SheSpits wrote:
My only concern would be spending the money to start a force (in either system), and have zero to 1 person show interest. I would hate to have a rep come down and I be the only person there, I would feel bad and buy that nice person lunch and apologize lol. I’m sure a few people would join the demo. Thanks every one! I’m going to contact my FLGS and ask for permission to do so.

Pressgangers and Henchmen and community reps know that sometimes it might just be 1 person wanting to learn the game. If they do their job, you'll want to play more and either seek out their home store (or one nearby) or start getting people involved at your store. Most of these community reps get compensated for their time so if you want stuff to happen at your store, you can let them know and they can help out, which works great for the both of you as you can get new people to play with and he gets a little credit from the company.

SheSpits wrote:
My only concern would be spending the money to start a force (in either system), and have zero to 1 person show interest. I would hate to have a rep come down and I be the only person there, I would feel bad and buy that nice person lunch and apologize lol. I’m sure a few people would join the demo. Thanks every one! I’m going to contact my FLGS and ask for permission to do so.

Also, unlike GW, PP and Wyrd reward their volunteers with product. If a PG comes and does demos at your local store, they'll basically get $8-10 an hour in free product, give or take.

I think you'll be surprised how easily WM/H catches on once someone finds out other people around them are interested. Our current local challenge is getting the people who play in their homes all the time to come out to game days and tournaments. We know they buy because the stuff flies off the shelves locally, but I'd still like to see them come out and play in more public events at local mini-conventions.

Sounds like a fun and cool gig to have on the side.

 frozenwastes wrote:

SheSpits wrote:
My only concern would be spending the money to start a force (in either system), and have zero to 1 person show interest. I would hate to have a rep come down and I be the only person there, I would feel bad and buy that nice person lunch and apologize lol. I’m sure a few people would join the demo. Thanks every one! I’m going to contact my FLGS and ask for permission to do so.

Also, unlike GW, PP and Wyrd reward their volunteers with product. If a PG comes and does demos at your local store, they'll basically get $8-10 an hour in free product, give or take.

Feth PGs get that much? I picked the wrong company to support . Henchmen get [REDACTED] an hour or so depending on what they run, and it's limited to x type of events a month like 4 hours of Demos a week, or 2 Tournaments a month, or 1 League for y weeks a month. You then request a coupon code for your work to spend in their shop online store (and it doesn't cover shipping ). You get compensated, but it's nowhere near "minimum wage" compensation, so I highly doubt the 8 to 10 dollars argument.

Edit: Feth yeah it is a cool side gig though . I've met so many people in the company by being a Henchman, other cool Henchmen, the game designers, people that helped write the game I love(d).

Pressgangers report events and get local store owners or convention operators to sign off on it. They then get PG Points which are around $1 of product each. A few times of year, the PGs submit order forms and spend their points. They do pay shipping. And it is around 8-10 points an hour depending on the type of event they are doing. Some are more, some are less.

 frozenwastes wrote:

As for Cincy's approach of demoing games, it sounds more like "seeing what sticks" rather than a decided effort to pick one and develop a community for it.

That's a bit unfair, quite frankly.

I'm very good at demoing. Despite how prickly I can come off on here, I'm very good with people. There's a reason I demo every year at GenCon and have for the past 5 years, 3 for Z-Man, 2 for FFG, and now this year demoing DZC and Infinity for Warstore (I would have demoed for either FFG or CMoN this year, but the Warstore guys, who are tight with one of my buddies, snatched me up first). But I can't MAKE anyone buy anything. No demoer can. Further, it takes a considerable amount of commitment both you as demoer and from the LGS you're demoing at to get a game to "catch." If they're not stocking product, getting a game to "catch" becomes harder. If there's no product to buy after I demo, the chances of someone buying in go down a considerable amount. I demoed Bolt Action Saturday at my LGS. Everyone had fun. There was no product in the store to buy. The chances of anyone buying in are a lot lower due to that.

Developing a community also takes a considerable amount of time, of which plenty of people don't have. With a full time job that often has me working at home, a spouse that requires attention, and a primary LGS that's 40 minutes away, it doesn't leave a lot of time to develop anything. If you have the time to do that, that's absolutely fantastic. I simply don't. For example, I'd LOVE to run a Descent campaign. I can't commit to an every Saturday/Sunday thing, much as I'd like to. Further, I'm not going to push people toward what they spend their money on, nor am I going to tell them that what they like is overpriced. That attitude encompasses everything I hate about the Pressganger program, where one of their primary selling points seems to be that they're "not-GW." Thats actually a big reason I don't do any of the leagues at the store that has a dedicated Warmahordes group. I like Warmahordes quite a bit. I own pretty much every model for two armies that overflow my two BF bags. But, for the most part, I only play it with one or two friends that aren't overcompetitive asshats. This hobby, for me, is best served with a cold drink and friends in a relaxed setting. But then again, I've never got the "competetive hobbies" thing; for me, that has always been athletics.

TL;DR Summary: For me hobbies should be relaxing. I demo stuff because I think it's cool. If other people don't want to buy in, no sweat off my brow. I don't have the time to browbeat them into spending their money on something they don't want to.

 cincydooley wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

As for Cincy's approach of demoing games, it sounds more like "seeing what sticks" rather than a decided effort to pick one and develop a community for it.

That's a bit unfair, quite frankly.

I'm very good at demoing. Despite how prickly I can come off on here, I'm very good with people. There's a reason I demo every year at GenCon and have for the past 5 years, 3 for Z-Man, 2 for FFG, and now this year demoing DZC and Infinity for Warstore (I would have demoed for either FFG or CMoN this year, but the Warstore guys, who are tight with one of my buddies, snatched me up first).

This is what I'm talking about. Look at how many different things you're demoing.

I demoed Bolt Action Saturday at my LGS. Everyone had fun. There was no product in the store to buy. The chances of anyone buying in are a lot lower due to that.

And yet another game!

See what I mean?

Imagine if you picked a game you really liked and spent all that time locally demoing, networking, exchanging contact information, setting up events, etc.,.

If someone is interested in a particular game as a supplement to their 40k hobby (or because 40k is no longer working for them), I'd highly recommend picking one and running with it. Demoing 5+ different games all over the place isn't going to help a community develop for any one of them.

Again, it comes down the time issue. I buy the ancillary games because I like the models. If we happen to get a game in here or there, that's great. I don't have a vested interest in that (again, because I'm here for the models more so than the game) but if it happens, well sweet! But quite frankly, like I said before, most of these ancillary games get played a few times, in a basement or man cave, over cocktails.

If someone with more time than me wants to push another game, then chances are I already own some of it and will play. But that's what's great about 40k. The community already exists. I can pop in the LGS at literally any time and snag a game.

Plus, that still ignores an important thing: If my LGS doesn't stock any of the game, the ability for someone to buy something after a demo is zero.

 frozenwastes wrote:
And yet another game!

See what I mean?

Imagine if you picked a game you really liked and spent all that time locally demoing, networking, exchanging contact information, setting up events, etc.,.

If someone is interested in a particular game as a supplement to their 40k hobby (or because 40k is no longer working for them), I'd highly recommend picking one and running with it. Demoing 5+ different games all over the place isn't going to help a community develop for any one of them.

There is nothing wrong with getting people interested in multiple games. I picked a game I really liked (Malifaux) and I spent every Friday demoing and playing Malifaux, with the occasional Saturday event. I met Henchmen at conventions and online, I talked to some in Toledo that were interested in events, and got some guys from Grove City, Pennsylvania to come to some of my events. I built a small (7 people at most). I have spent countless hours demoing Malifaux, and because of the effort and time I put into that game I now have 4 to 5 people (haven't seen a few of my players in a few months) that were really excited to make the jump to M2E, but nothing we saw/tried scratched our itch. So we're going to stick with Malifaux Classic. I, personally, jumped ship because Wyrd wasn't a company I wanted to dedicate my time to as I thought they should have zigged when they zagged (still a fantastic group of guys there though). I joined the Bolt Action Sarge's program and I've been a demo for Bolt Action and we're picking it up as a sometimes game.

The largest community at my FLGS? Flames of War (not including Magic). There are easily 18 people playing Flames on a Saturday afternoon. And yet my little Friday has garnered local time as a rotating "skirmish" game schedule. We play what we want to play because we are people of varied tastes. Most of the guys that show up on Friday for w/e we're playing also show up on Saturday for Flames.

I also give about once a month Brushfire Demos, and when I get my Endless: Fantasy Tactics stuff I'll demo that every now and then (though I fething love that game, so I'll probably push it harder ). Some of us like introducing these games to people, and some of us like finding one game we love and being a die-hard about it. Cincy can attest to some of the pro-Wyrd comments I've made in the past. Hell, Alpharius said my Wyrd knickers were showing again

 cincydooley wrote:
Plus, that still ignores an important thing: If my LGS doesn't stock any of the game, the ability for someone to buy something after a demo is zero.

Facing that with our biggest LGS, got is some kind of irritation with GW and literally kicked them out.
Burned the bridge and salted the earth.
Still more than happy to let us play 40k but has added the policy that if you actually play 40k at the store that day he will give 5% off Privateer Press models.
A bit of a mixed message but I get where he is coming from.

 Talizvar wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Plus, that still ignores an important thing: If my LGS doesn't stock any of the game, the ability for someone to buy something after a demo is zero.

Facing that with our biggest LGS, got is some kind of irritation with GW and literally kicked them out.
Burned the bridge and salted the earth.
Still more than happy to let us play 40k but has added the policy that if you actually play 40k at the store that day he will give 5% off Privateer Press models.
A bit of a mixed message but I get where he is coming from.

I saw something like that recently! The store had a Hobbit starter on the shelf completely covered by a few Warmachine & Hordes 2-player starters.

 Talizvar wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Plus, that still ignores an important thing: If my LGS doesn't stock any of the game, the ability for someone to buy something after a demo is zero.

Facing that with our biggest LGS, got is some kind of irritation with GW and literally kicked them out.
Burned the bridge and salted the earth.
Still more than happy to let us play 40k but has added the policy that if you actually play 40k at the store that day he will give 5% off Privateer Press models.
A bit of a mixed message but I get where he is coming from.

See, that's an absolutely gakky attitude for a store to have, and would probably be enough to make me never play at that store. They're basically saying that if you want to spend your money on 40k, they don't want your money. Ignorant.

Again, that's one of my big things. I'm not going to tell anyone how to spend their money when I demo. Nor am I going to tell them that what they want to buy isn't worth their money. And that seems to be a HUGE anti-GW go to here that really peeves me.

cincydooley wrote:Again, it comes down the time issue.

Earlier in the thread you said that Infinity has less value to you because of how far you'd have to drive to get a game. Then over the last several pages, you've talked about all this time and effort you've spent on demoing all sorts of games. You could have picked your favorite and made some real progress on developing a community for it. You could have made the issue you cited with Infinity into a non-issue. It is a time issue. An issue of fracturing your time rather than focusing it and then complaining about the lack of Infinity opponents.

I buy the ancillary games because I like the models. If we happen to get a game in here or there, that's great. I don't have a vested interest in that (again, because I'm here for the models more so than the game) but if it happens, well sweet!

Then why in the world were you bashing the guy in Japan over how little he'd get to play with his KV3 vs the Sentinel? Why the double standard? He liked the model for the money more than the GW offering and you brought up him not being able to play as many games with it. But now we see that the standard you use for others isn't applied to yourself.

Plus, that still ignores an important thing: If my LGS doesn't stock any of the game, the ability for someone to buy something after a demo is zero.

Early on you will have that hurdle. Talking with the store in advance about being reciptive and timely with special orders was all I've needed to do. Then after there were 5 or 6 people playing and buying regularly, the store employee would start asking us for preorders and they started stocking some stuff. Now Warmachine is the single largest section in the store. But it started somewhere. And not by me or my friends demoing 5+ different games.

Alfndrate wrote:There is nothing wrong with getting people interested in multiple games.

You're right! Nothing at all wrong. However it's not a good plan if the issue is lack of local players for a given game. In fact, it's a bad approach if you're trying to deal with an issue of lack of players for a particular game

If anyone is having issues finding opponents for a given game, the wrong approach is to try to promote five different games. That's all I'm saying.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Plus, that still ignores an important thing: If my LGS doesn't stock any of the game, the ability for someone to buy something after a demo is zero.

Facing that with our biggest LGS, got is some kind of irritation with GW and literally kicked them out.
Burned the bridge and salted the earth.
Still more than happy to let us play 40k but has added the policy that if you actually play 40k at the store that day he will give 5% off Privateer Press models.
A bit of a mixed message but I get where he is coming from.

See, that's an absolutely gakky attitude for a store to have, and would probably be enough to make me never play at that store. They're basically saying that if you want to spend your money on 40k, they don't want your money. Ignorant.

Again, that's one of my big things. I'm not going to tell anyone how to spend their money when I demo. Nor am I going to tell them that what they want to buy isn't worth their money. And that seems to be a HUGE anti-GW go to here that really peeves me.

I guess you could read it as he doesn't want the customers money (Which is not true because of the offered discount, he clearly wants your money), or he doesn't want to give his money to GW which I can understand. He hasn't cut off the 40k community from playing, just seems tired of dealing with GW.

 cincydooley wrote:

See, that's an absolutely gakky attitude for a store to have, and would probably be enough to make me never play at that store. They're basically saying that if you want to spend your money on 40k, they don't want your money. Ignorant.

I think it's very generous. They're allowing people to play *for free* using a product they don't sell in the store. Then offering them an incentive to purchase a product they do sell. Seems smart rather than ignorant. They're not alienating people by banning the game and they're being smart about making a sales opportunity.

I'll attempt to expand.

 frozenwastes wrote:


Earlier in the thread you said that Infinity has less value to you because of how far you'd have to drive to get a game. Then over the last several pages, you've talked about all this time and effort you've spent on demoing all sorts of games. You could have picked your favorite and made some real progress on developing a community for it. You could have made the issue you cited with Infinity into a non-issue. It is a time issue. An issue of fracturing your time rather than focusing it and then complaining about the lack of Infinity opponents.

Honestly, my favorite is 40k followed by Freebooters. In that regard, I already have. I demo other games because I happen to have the stuff. I may not have made it very clear, but I have no real desire to be the one responsible for growing a game. I'm not at the LGS often enough to do so, nor would I want to consistently demo one game. I'm actually not that big a fan of infinity; it's a bit too book keepy for me. However, I love the models so I have payed it.

Then why in the world were you bashing the guy in Japan over how little he'd get to play with his KV3 vs the Sentinel? Why the double standard? He liked the model for the money more than the GW offering and you brought up him not being able to play as many games with it. But now we see that the standard you use for others isn't applied to yourself.

Honestly i didn't get bent out of shape until he decided he was the arbiter of what is and what isn't over priced. Then he tried to boil down which model a person should buy on, as he said "simple economics." Which, as I said, just isn't the case.

Early on you will have that hurdle. Talking with the store in advance about being reciptive and timely with special orders was all I've needed to do. Then after there were 5 or 6 people playing and buying regularly, the store employee would start asking us for preorders and they started stocking some stuff. Now Warmachine is the single largest section in the store. But it started somewhere. And not by me or my friends demoing 5+ different games.

You're much more devoted to pushing a game than I care to be. The one LGS that I have enough clout with to influence stocking is the one I've demoed a bunch of games at. We've looked at a bunch of different things that could be their T3 product line. Hence the multiple demoing. Nothing has drawn enough interest to warrant it.

We have vastly differing opinions on that particular LGS and their generosity. There isn't a chance I'd game there, even if they "let me". A 5% discount is a joke and, like I said before, is the precise attitude that permeates a great portion of the Privateer Community that really turns me off. Not from the game, but from the press ganders and page 5ers. Contrarily, I've never heard a henchmans primary be involve any "not-GW" slanting.

And the "no" product for sale in the store is kinda moot, when there are enough webstores that carry it.

Getting the LGS to carry it, is the chicken and egg question, shops are hessitant to invest in new systems if there is no community that plays, and players need a place to play and buy the system, so it usually comes down to the player to create some interest in the gamers to ask the shop owner to carry it.

Honestly i didn't get bent out of shape until he decided he was the arbiter of what is and what isn't over priced. Then he tried to boil down which model a person should buy on, as he said "simple economics." Which, as I said, just isn't the case.

Uhm, the KV-3 is cheaper than the sentinel that is the truth. I never said people should buy it, that is what you read into it.

@frozenwastes using Dust tactics vehicles for 40k, i like that idea

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.
!

And there you go. Bolded for emphasis. I'm prepared to drop it if you are.

If you don't want to buy anymore or want to buy other stuff, more power to you. I take offense to people that attempt to belittle how others spend their money.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.
!

And there you go. Bolded for emphasis. I'm prepared to drop it if you are.

If you don't want to buy anymore or want to buy other stuff, more power to you. I take offense to people that attempt to belittle how others spend their money.

It was not aimed at others, it was aimed at you, you are the one that attacks others that give options other than GW, i am "probably" longer a fan of GW then you are, but there are other systems that are cheaper without going into the "subjective" values of that system.

See this answer was without insults or namecalling, hope you can do the same.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I think it's probably that people care more about 40k and don't actually want to quit. They wish things were different and want to talk about where they think things went off the rails.

If it seems like the same points are brought up again and again, it's probably because it's humans reacting to the same situation again and again.

This sums it up for me, and for many others, I think.

I want to stay in the game, and like what the game has been in the past.

I think that the game is more and more about being a money grab, and less and less about being a game.

Worse, I think that the rules are being written, more and more often, to support the money grab over the game.

Yes, you can play older versions, or use older models - I still play Mordheim, and use models from all over the place to play it (some of them even by GW).

Or, I can buy Kings of War, and use my older GW models in a currently supported game with rules that I like. It is easier to find players of KoW than it is to find players of WHFB 3e.

But then... it is also easier, locally, to find players of AD&D Battle System than to find players of WHFB 3e....

I will admit - I had fun with WH40K - but I have no urge to play it these days. I can give reasons... but the truth is that it just does not engage me these days.

I had fun with WHFB - and found a game that gives me that same enjoyment. At my heart I am more about unit and maneuver based tactics than about unit skirmish tactics. (I am not saying that one or the other is better! I just enjoy the mechanics of the fantasy games better.)

The Auld Grump

 cincydooley wrote:
I'd love if Infinity and Malifaux had starter boxes.

Infinity does have starter boxes. They're actually labelled as such.

They're not starter sets because it's not worth doing (yes, I know that's being incredibly nitpicky on your word use). Doing a starter set yourself for Infinity is super cheap. Buy two starter boxes, download the completely free rules and completely free quickstart guide, which also includes all tokens and templates completely free, buy 3-4 D20s, and run some games.

No, the two boxes won't be perfectly balanced against each other. Neither are GW's starter sets, but it hasn't hurt their sales or use. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find two starter boxes for Infinity as badly matched as the Dark Angels and Chaos from Dark Vengeance.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.
!

And there you go. Bolded for emphasis. I'm prepared to drop it if you are.

If you don't want to buy anymore or want to buy other stuff, more power to you. I take offense to people that attempt to belittle how others spend their money.

It was not aimed at others, it was aimed at you, you are the one that attacks others that give options other than GW, i am "probably" longer a fan of GW then you are, but there are other systems that are cheaper without going into the "subjective" values of that system.

See this answer was without insults or namecalling, hope you can do the same.

Ahh, so belittling how I might choose to spend my money is okay. Got it. There are other systems that are cheaper. I agree. That is simple economics. As to what is a "better buy" or what is "overpriced" : completely subjective.

Quite frankly, I don't care if you're "probably a longer fan of GW" than I am. That has little to no bearing on it aside from the people that were fans of GW before they went public also seem to be the ones that take more offense that GW has changed how they do business.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I'd love if Infinity and Malifaux had starter boxes.

Infinity does have starter boxes. They're actually labelled as such.

They're not starter sets because it's not worth doing (yes, I know that's being incredibly nitpicky on your word use). .

I actually did mean starter sets. Apologies for not making that clear. I think a 2P starter set with an included rulebook is a great asset.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Jehen- your post in another thread has completely enlightened me as to where you're coming from. You feel like GW owes you something or you, as a gamer, have some sense of ownership in them.

That's the big difference. To me GW is a faceless company that makes some stuff I like. When I like it and its worth the money for me at that time, I buy it. When I don't like something or its more than I want to pay at that time, I don't buy it. GW doesn't owe me anything.

And Jehen- your post in another thread has completely enlightened me as to where you're coming from. You feel like GW owes you something or you, as a gamer, have some sense of ownership in them.

That's the big difference. To me GW is a faceless company that makes some stuff I like. When I like it and its worth the money for me at that time, I buy it. When I don't like something or its more than I want to pay at that time, I don't buy it. GW doesn't owe me anything.

It's Jehan by the way.

GW Doesn't owe me anything, it is just annoying to see how they gak on a whole generation of gamers that made them the company they are today, but that is a whole different discussion.

Personally, I don't have to buy much because I already own it. I've been gaming for nearly 20 years. I've got armies I've collected over the years and don't plan on picking up any more. I already have 6 40k armies ranging in size of 2-3,000 points, 3 fantasy armies ranging in size of 2,500 to 5,000 points, and a small force of about 80 points in a hordes army. I'm not looking to expand much more. I'm working through my back log and putting paint on my models. My general rule is if its not painted, it's not going to show up on the table.

I have no desire to learn a new system and am not interested in spending more money on a kick starter that nobody else in my community may or may not want to buy into. I'm not about to take the time to push them either because I can better spend my time doing something else like painting my toy soldiers, watch a movie, or spend time with my wife and family. Most of the gaming I am looking for is in a tournament because I can get three games in and go home.

 cincydooley wrote:
We have vastly differing opinions on that particular LGS and their generosity. There isn't a chance I'd game there, even if they "let me". A 5% discount is a joke and, like I said before, is the precise attitude that permeates a great portion of the Privateer Community that really turns me off. Not from the game, but from the press ganders and page 5ers. Contrarily, I've never heard a henchmans primary be involve any "not-GW" slanting.

Privateer actually tells their press gangers to never say anything bad about another game. They explicitly agree not to. If they do, go to PP's customer service page and tell them who the PG was, what the event they were running was and what they said. PP'll shut them up for you. If it's gamers at large, you're probably committing some sort of confirmation bias where you remember the exceptionally bad cases as being more prevalent than they are. While there are lots of ex-GW customers playing PP games, PP's been starting to pick up steam recruiting first time miniature wargamers at a greater and greater pace. I'm actually finding more and more people with no experience with GW and thus no opinion of GW.

I still don't get why you're insulted by a store owner deciding to still allow a given company's game to be played in their store even after they broke off their business relationship with that company. Perhaps you perceive an "attitude" where there is none. Instead, he's allowing the use of his resources (rented square footage) to allow those who want to continue to play. It should be fairly obvious and not at all nefarious that he wants to transition his existing customer base into customers of his new products. If a store local to me had a falling out with Privateer Press but still allowed people to player their games, but incentivized buying another company's stuff, I can't say it'd bother me at all. Why should I care whether a given store owner pats me on the head and approves of the game I've chosen?

I do get that no one likes being told the choices they are making are inferior ones, but it's also possible to be overly sensitive to the point where one thinks there's some sort of pervasive attitude when there isn't.

I havnt purchased anything from GW this year, and by the looks of it all i am going to be purchasing will be a box of Cadians, to convert for a Killteam event that my club is going to be running. And even then if i can find some better minis in the same scale i shall be using them instead.

Long story short: GW is too expensive for me. I may buy one or two things but with the rare exception these will be from ebay. I am a student, looking for a job, but unable to find one. And if GW believes that they can just take my money in those amounts, when there are games that are just as fun, if not more so, that are cheaper-I.E. Warmachines-then i will not be buying from them.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
We have vastly differing opinions on that particular LGS and their generosity. There isn't a chance I'd game there, even if they "let me". A 5% discount is a joke and, like I said before, is the precise attitude that permeates a great portion of the Privateer Community that really turns me off. Not from the game, but from the press ganders and page 5ers. Contrarily, I've never heard a henchmans primary be involve any "not-GW" slanting.

*snip*

Does this store owner allow people to order GW product through him? If not, then it's stupid to let GW games be played, but not to sell anything. If he'll order things for people that are willing to spend money in his shop on a game they play, then he can offer whatever lame gimmick he wants. If he won't even order GW product for his customers, then he deserves to watch those players come in with their new shiny MAN DOLLIES that they bought elsewhere because he refuses to get GW stock in (even if it's just an order for some tac marines).

I inadvertently did this at my old flgs. It was next to impossible to get stock in for any game the store owner didn't play. You'd order it, and you'd be lucky to see it in a month. In the span of 8 months I had (through Dakka) purchased 2 armies of 2k points or more (one army was my first army and I didn't have a place to play at that moment), started a Tyranid and Ork army of 1000 points each, and bought an 2,500 point Blood Angels army that I assembled and then sold off. All of that money wasn't going to his shop because there were 5 people playing 40k, and he didn't feel like getting in a little GW stock, but the 5 Warmahordes players could get their stock easier, they might have to wait 2 weeks instead of 4, but they got their stuff. The first thing I bought from his store was a 3rd edition Carnifex to paint, and the thing had a layer of dust on the box...

 cincydooley wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
Expense has always been an issue with me. I work hard and have a pretty good income but I can’t even keep up with building an army how I would want. The fact that I can’t just buy a Hydra without ordering something from forge world or some secondary seller is a huge annoyance to me. The last draw though for me was FOB. I play IG and went undefeated till the last round when I watched a wraith knight and lord kill half my army in two turns while wave serpents and warp spiders killed the other half. My 1st two games were not easy Orks round one and Tau round two. Tau game was facing them on short board edges, it was murder. I got boarded by Eldar. I have never been boarded. It was a huge blow to me. I found I had to finally say that GW is building rules around modals and codex creep won. Maybe I sound like a sore loser but I have never lost over 40 models in a shooting faze. Dark reapers destroying my tanks while wraith knight killed guardsmen quicker then sin. I then used two wraith knights against several peoples full armies and one 3 games using only 2 wraith knights.

So you're complaining that the Str10 model was killing guardsmen after you let it get into CC with them? And that Dark Reapers, a heavy weapons unit designed to destroy tanks, destroyed your tanks? Hmmm......

Honestly, I don't think the Wraithknight is THAT good. It's solid, for sure, but it's also a considerable amount of points (as are the Riptides).

Plus, there are plenty of recent instances of new models that, quite frankly, aren't that great (Tau Fliers, Grey Knight Carlos, DA Flyer, Maulerfiend, etc...)

It shot up my guys. I never got into CC. In fact I never killed a modal. I got tabled 2 turns. I was rolling poorly but that cant account for losing a rather large army in 2 freaking turns. After reading the codex there isn’t one rule some unit in Eldar doesn’t ignore or change and I see you missed the “I used 2 wraith knight and beat 3 other players whole armies.” 1 Tau 1 SM 1 CSM 1850 points whooped by a 800ish points. I didn’t loose a single wraith knight. Defend the game all you want its your right as a free man but I just can’t do it anymore. I placed in FOB and I am not going to finals. I cant justifying wasting my time driving 12 hours to get curb stomped.

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
Expense has always been an issue with me. I work hard and have a pretty good income but I can’t even keep up with building an army how I would want. The fact that I can’t just buy a Hydra without ordering something from forge world or some secondary seller is a huge annoyance to me. The last draw though for me was FOB. I play IG and went undefeated till the last round when I watched a wraith knight and lord kill half my army in two turns while wave serpents and warp spiders killed the other half. My 1st two games were not easy Orks round one and Tau round two. Tau game was facing them on short board edges, it was murder. I got boarded by Eldar. I have never been boarded. It was a huge blow to me. I found I had to finally say that GW is building rules around modals and codex creep won. Maybe I sound like a sore loser but I have never lost over 40 models in a shooting faze. Dark reapers destroying my tanks while wraith knight killed guardsmen quicker then sin. I then used two wraith knights against several peoples full armies and one 3 games using only 2 wraith knights.

So you're complaining that the Str10 model was killing guardsmen after you let it get into CC with them? And that Dark Reapers, a heavy weapons unit designed to destroy tanks, destroyed your tanks? Hmmm......

Honestly, I don't think the Wraithknight is THAT good. It's solid, for sure, but it's also a considerable amount of points (as are the Riptides).

Plus, there are plenty of recent instances of new models that, quite frankly, aren't that great (Tau Fliers, Grey Knight Carlos, DA Flyer, Maulerfiend, etc...)

It shot up my guys. I never got into CC. In fact I never killed a modal. I got tabled 2 turns. I was rolling poorly but that cant account for losing a rather large army in 2 freaking turns. After reading the codex there isn’t one rule some unit in Eldar doesn’t ignore or change and I see you missed the “I used 2 wraith knight and beat 3 other players whole armies.” 1 Tau 1 SM 1 CSM 1850 points whooped by a 800ish points. I didn’t loose a single wraith knight. Defend the game all you want its your right as a free man but I just can’t do it anymore. I placed in FOB and I am not going to finals. I cant justifying wasting my time driving 12 hours to get curb stomped.

Oh, so the Monstrous Creature with the fantastic anti-infantry weapons killed your guard blobs. Shocking.

Unfortunately you're coming off a bit as a complainer. There haven't been too many complaints of the Wraithknights being OP that I've seen, particularly given their point cost. And quite frankly, if two wraithknights killed a whole 1850 tau army (which I'm not really buying) then that Tau player must be awful. With Tau shooting and only 2 targets, nuking a Wraithknight in one turn shouldn't have been a huge problem.

And something which will be a surprise to no-one, obviously not much of that money was going to the traders. OG Games have just announced they are not going to sell GW products any more. From their forum..

As you may not know, GW are going to stop all online retailers stocking GW products after Nov 21st unless they have a bricks and mortar store..
We have plans to open a store in 2014, but we are not going to rush this just for one supplier, who also has the most discounted products out there.
(despite having the worst margin)

We have struggled for months now with their ever decreasing range and hugely restrictive and ltd new release policies. This has led to many instances of us having to let customers down.
Combine this with the fact in order for us to compete with the crazy discounting out there, we basically sell GW products at break even if we are lucky.
We have decided to stop, and take all GW off sale as of today.

LM orders for club members will be honoured in the week after release if we can, but if you want a refund/credit instead please let me know..

We will carry on letting club members buy GW till the November deadline, if you have an account and its authorised as a club account, only these accounts will be able to view the GW products on the sight from now on (you must be logged in)..

Sorry to hear that Ol, hope you wont take too much of a financial hit from all this.

We lost money selling GW (or broke even at best) so it actually benefits us, until the crazy discounting stops, I can see many other retailers curtailing their GW stock levels.
Especially now as GW make it very hard for you to order anything in on demand, they want you to have everything in stock, which of course can then really hurt you with the discount war out there...

Will be interesting to see if other companies follow suit? Obviously OG games sell a lot of things besides miniatures so perhaps it was an easier choice for them.

 Pacific wrote:
And something which will be a surprise to no-one, obviously not much of that money was going to the traders. OG Games have just announced they are not going to sell GW products any more. From their forum..

As you may not know, GW are going to stop all online retailers stocking GW products after Nov 21st unless they have a bricks and mortar store..
We have plans to open a store in 2014, but we are not going to rush this just for one supplier, who also has the most discounted products out there.
(despite having the worst margin)

We have struggled for months now with their ever decreasing range and hugely restrictive and ltd new release policies. This has led to many instances of us having to let customers down.
Combine this with the fact in order for us to compete with the crazy discounting out there, we basically sell GW products at break even if we are lucky.
We have decided to stop, and take all GW off sale as of today.

LM orders for club members will be honoured in the week after release if we can, but if you want a refund/credit instead please let me know..

We will carry on letting club members buy GW till the November deadline, if you have an account and its authorised as a club account, only these accounts will be able to view the GW products on the sight from now on (you must be logged in)..

Sorry to hear that Ol, hope you wont take too much of a financial hit from all this.

We lost money selling GW (or broke even at best) so it actually benefits us, until the crazy discounting stops, I can see many other retailers curtailing their GW stock levels.
Especially now as GW make it very hard for you to order anything in on demand, they want you to have everything in stock, which of course can then really hurt you with the discount war out there...

Will be interesting to see if other companies follow suit? Obviously OG games sell a lot of things besides miniatures so perhaps it was an easier choice for them.

Wouldn't this be better and more relevant in the GW annual report thread ?

 cincydooley wrote:
See, that's an absolutely gakky attitude for a store to have, and would probably be enough to make me never play at that store. They're basically saying that if you want to spend your money on 40k, they don't want your money. Ignorant.

Try a different viewpoint:
The store owner "likes" his gamers of all types in the store.

He has had a long history of hating how GW treated him:
-No packing slips: so he has no idea until the end of the count what was short shipped but they took the full amount of what he paid. (sometimes did direct pickup so could have asked there, EVERYONE does packing slips except them).
-Being told that he needed to have X amount of shelf space for GW if he was to get the order he wanted or it would be limited.
-Decided to pay for the "new" paint rack only to have the "new, new" rack come out and he had to get it.
-Told he had to pay up-front with credit card because his volume was not big enough.
-Placed orders and had the manager tell him what he "should" be ordering and if he insisted, he may not get what he wanted for quite some time...
-Last straw was when he had to wait a couple weeks for 6th edition stuff to be sent to him with no explanation.
-Received multiple phone calls from GW demanding "where are his orders?" and him saying repeatedly "I no longer wish to deal with your company and have turned to more customer friendly competitors". They called multiple times refusing to acknowledge that he no longer wanted them.
- Regional sales manager came to visit (2 months after no orders). Owner outlined the practices and behavior he did not like. Manager said to him that GW practices are proven and should have no bearing on his need to buy their products. Owner said; "Unless you can show any number of industry standard customer service, we have nothing to talk about. You have your own business and you keep insisting on telling me how to run mine: take a hike.".

He wants our money, he does not want to deal with GW.
He has made the business decision that the cost of business dealing with GW is not worth it to him.
Not so ignorant to me.

This is not the first store to get all bent out of shape, see link of less restrained rants:
http://natfka.blogspot.ca/2013/02/direct-only-release-and-retailers.html

Side note:
We have a large store near multiple universities selling a HUGE volume of GW, was told their Apocalypse orders would have many items on back order, they said "If these shelves with your product go empty, we have another supplier that will be happy to fill them permanently... your choice.", I was told they get everything they ordered.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
Expense has always been an issue with me. I work hard and have a pretty good income but I can’t even keep up with building an army how I would want. The fact that I can’t just buy a Hydra without ordering something from forge world or some secondary seller is a huge annoyance to me. The last draw though for me was FOB. I play IG and went undefeated till the last round when I watched a wraith knight and lord kill half my army in two turns while wave serpents and warp spiders killed the other half. My 1st two games were not easy Orks round one and Tau round two. Tau game was facing them on short board edges, it was murder. I got boarded by Eldar. I have never been boarded. It was a huge blow to me. I found I had to finally say that GW is building rules around modals and codex creep won. Maybe I sound like a sore loser but I have never lost over 40 models in a shooting faze. Dark reapers destroying my tanks while wraith knight killed guardsmen quicker then sin. I then used two wraith knights against several peoples full armies and one 3 games using only 2 wraith knights.

So you're complaining that the Str10 model was killing guardsmen after you let it get into CC with them? And that Dark Reapers, a heavy weapons unit designed to destroy tanks, destroyed your tanks? Hmmm......

Honestly, I don't think the Wraithknight is THAT good. It's solid, for sure, but it's also a considerable amount of points (as are the Riptides).

Plus, there are plenty of recent instances of new models that, quite frankly, aren't that great (Tau Fliers, Grey Knight Carlos, DA Flyer, Maulerfiend, etc...)

It shot up my guys. I never got into CC. In fact I never killed a modal. I got tabled 2 turns. I was rolling poorly but that cant account for losing a rather large army in 2 freaking turns. After reading the codex there isn’t one rule some unit in Eldar doesn’t ignore or change and I see you missed the “I used 2 wraith knight and beat 3 other players whole armies.” 1 Tau 1 SM 1 CSM 1850 points whooped by a 800ish points. I didn’t loose a single wraith knight. Defend the game all you want its your right as a free man but I just can’t do it anymore. I placed in FOB and I am not going to finals. I cant justifying wasting my time driving 12 hours to get curb stomped.

Oh, so the Monstrous Creature with the fantastic anti-infantry weapons killed your guard blobs. Shocking.

Unfortunately you're coming off a bit as a complainer. There haven't been too many complaints of the Wraithknights being OP that I've seen, particularly given their point cost. And quite frankly, if two wraithknights killed a whole 1850 tau army (which I'm not really buying) then that Tau player must be awful. With Tau shooting and only 2 targets, nuking a Wraithknight in one turn shouldn't have been a huge problem.

Don’t believe me it doesn’t matter, at all. All it honestly takes is enough people just like me to give up and throw in the towel. I am a big fan of 40k. I have a 40k servo skull tattoo to prove it. I have been playing since 3rd. I can’t anymore justify the expenditure of cash to play a game that doesn’t equal fun anymore to me. I have a higher than average income for America according to recent surveys and I can’t afford to pay for a new army without considering a loan. I bought my first 500 points for less then 100$ including codex. Now you can’t buy 500 points for that at all. I met my best friends playing this game. One of them quit after he had played for 20 years the other is barely playing. I cant force myself to sell my Krieg, Orks, or DA but I packed them up after FOB and placed them in storage. I started looking for new games to get my wargaming fix. Call me a complainer all you want you clearly have no idea how business works. If no one complains then companies assume what they are doing is what people want. Its simple and if you think I am joking I will PM you the number to the purchasing department of a major surgical hospital and you ask that guy (he is me).

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
I have a higher than average income for America according to recent surveys and I can’t afford to pay for a new army without considering a loan.

I'm not being funny mate, but unless you have more kids than the Waltons, how is that possible?

I earn less than the national average being a northern monkey, but after all the bills I'm left with about $700 a month totally spare, I generally spend about half that boozing (I'm getting old) and put a little away, surely if you earn more than the national average you aren't living month to month?

If you are, you are extremely irresponsible, if you arent, you can clearly afford to spend a couple hundred bucks on some models. I find it staggering that anybody the wrong side of 25 doesn't put at least a little away each month, what if you lose your job or something?

Even If I have a rough month, I've managed to save at least $50, I don't think I have emptied my bank balance in about a decade.

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:

Don’t believe me it doesn’t matter, at all. All it honestly takes is enough people just like me to give up and throw in the towel. I am a big fan of 40k. I have a 40k servo skull tattoo to prove it.

We can discuss your questionable life choices in the Off Topic thread if you'd like.

I have been playing since 3rd. I can’t anymore justify the expenditure of cash to play a game that doesn’t equal fun anymore to me.

So its no longer fun because you got tabled for the first time in your life? Sounds like sour grapes.

I have a higher than average income for America according to recent surveys and I can’t afford to pay for a new army without considering a loan.

Well, if this is true, AND you live in Idaho, you're doing something wrong. Incredibly low cost of living + "higher than average income" (which would place you above fiddy gees a year) and you'd need to take a loan? You may want to look at some of your finances and identify the trouble spots. High end call girls?

I cant force myself to sell my Krieg, Orks, or DA but I packed them up after FOB and placed them in storage.

Because you're a sore loser? I mean seriously. You have three armies. You got beat. Oh no. The sky MUST be falling. Adapt your game, brah, if you're as good an army general as you seem to think you are.

Call me a complainer all you want

Complainer

...you clearly have no idea how business works. If no one complains then companies assume what they are doing is what people want. Its simple and if you think I am joking I will PM you the number to the purchasing department of a major surgical hospital and you ask that guy (he is me).

Gotta be honest, I'm not even sure what this last little gem of a sentence means. What am I supposed to ask you? About ordering surgical supplies? Sweet. I could use a nice big box of latex surgical gloves for airbrushing. I'll also take some surgical loupes if you can get me a pair on the cheap. No offense, my man, but just because you're in sales doesn't mean you know anything about business. We've got sales people two floors down. They can sell the gak out of the products they're selling. But none of them know how to control growth, or introduce a new stream of revenue, or even upgrade their sales system.

mattyrm wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
I have a higher than average income for America according to recent surveys and I can’t afford to pay for a new army without considering a loan.

I'm not being funny mate, but unless you have more kids than the Waltons, how is that possible?

I earn less than the national average being a northern monkey, but after all the bills I'm left with about $700 a month totally spare, I generally spend about half that boozing (I'm getting old) and put a little away, surely if you earn more than the national average you aren't living month to month?

If you are, you are extremely irresponsible, if you arent, you can clearly afford to spend a couple hundred bucks on some models. I find it staggering that anybody the wrong side of 25 doesn't put at least a little away each month, what if you lose your job or something?

Even If I have a rough month, I've managed to save at least $50, I don't think I have emptied my bank balance in about a decade.

I have two kids a fiancé who is in college and doesn’t work. I also like many people have a lot of college debt. The point was that the cost has finally eclipsed the benefits.

cincydooley wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:

Don’t believe me it doesn’t matter, at all. All it honestly takes is enough people just like me to give up and throw in the towel. I am a big fan of 40k. I have a 40k servo skull tattoo to prove it.

We can discuss your questionable life choices in the Off Topic thread if you'd like.

I have been playing since 3rd. I can’t anymore justify the expenditure of cash to play a game that doesn’t equal fun anymore to me.

So its no longer fun because you got tabled for the first time in your life? Sounds like sour grapes.

I have a higher than average income for America according to recent surveys and I can’t afford to pay for a new army without considering a loan.

Well, if this is true, AND you live in Idaho, you're doing something wrong. Incredibly low cost of living + "higher than average income" (which would place you above fiddy gees a year) and you'd need to take a loan? You may want to look at some of your finances and identify the trouble spots. High end call girls?

I cant force myself to sell my Krieg, Orks, or DA but I packed them up after FOB and placed them in storage.

Because you're a sore loser? I mean seriously. You have three armies. You got beat. Oh no. The sky MUST be falling. Adapt your game, brah, if you're as good an army general as you seem to think you are.

Call me a complainer all you want

Complainer

...you clearly have no idea how business works. If no one complains then companies assume what they are doing is what people want. Its simple and if you think I am joking I will PM you the number to the purchasing department of a major surgical hospital and you ask that guy (he is me).

Gotta be honest, I'm not even sure what this last little gem of a sentence means. What am I supposed to ask you? About ordering surgical supplies? Sweet. I could use a nice big box of latex surgical gloves for airbrushing. I'll also take some surgical loupes if you can get me a pair on the cheap. No offense, my man, but just because you're in sales doesn't mean you know anything about business. We've got sales people two floors down. They can sell the gak out of the products they're selling. But none of them know how to control growth, or introduce a new stream of revenue, or even upgrade their sales system.

At this point you’re not arguing the points of the game or the faults just personal attacks. I guess that’s the internet for you. All I tried to say was how I felt. You know the forum and such. Hope you have many fun years playing GW games. I know I will continue playing the ones I enjoy that they stopped supporting.

And yet you won't play the game that they're still supporting because you got tabled?

Your logic is mind blowing, my man.

Additionally, I have plenty of college debt from 4 years of private undergrad and 2 years of private graduate work and am married to a woman we've paid cash to put through $22k grad school, so you're not alone there.

Honestly. Had you not come off as a whiny complainer that you beat and quit (I mean, it sounds like you basically rage quit 40k) it would have been a lot easier to take anything you say seriously.

 cincydooley wrote:
And yet you won't play the game that they're still supporting because you got tabled?

If it was a one time affair, what you say would be correct. I suspect it was more than that.

Your logic is mind blowing, my man.

There was no real logic being applied there it was as he admitted a "feeling" you know, those strange things in your head that make you play against all the logic of investing that money for your retirement or paying off debt.

Additionally, I have plenty of college debt from 4 years of private undergrad and 2 years of private graduate work and am married to a woman we've paid cash to put through $22k grad school, so you're not alone there.

Not sure with all the game systems you support that is a good statement of priorities. You guys should PM later and compare income...

Honestly. Had you not come off as a whiny complainer that you beat and quit (I mean, it sounds like you basically rage quit 40k) it would have been a lot easier to take anything you say seriously.

You say a horde of nasty stuff and seem to expect us to take you seriously.... but we love you anyways. If I rage quit, I am sure I could find a few suitable people to sell to in this forum.

He specifically mentioned that the Wraithknight has led to him being tabled (which never happens) which led to him quitting the game.

I'm not the one complaining about being priced out of 40k am I? And thats not because i have infinite fonts of money; i certainly don't. But i am able to budget for the things I do want to purchase. My priorities are just fine, thanks.

Don’t believe me it doesn’t matter, at all. All it honestly takes is enough people just like me to give up and throw in the towel. I am a big fan of 40k. I have a 40k servo skull tattoo to prove it. I have been playing since 3rd. I can’t anymore justify the expenditure of cash to play a game that doesn’t equal fun anymore to me. I have a higher than average income for America according to recent surveys and I can’t afford to pay for a new army without considering a loan. I bought my first 500 points for less then 100$ including codex. Now you can’t buy 500 points for that at all. I met my best friends playing this game. One of them quit after he had played for 20 years the other is barely playing. I cant force myself to sell my Krieg, Orks, or DA but I packed them up after FOB and placed them in storage. I started looking for new games to get my wargaming fix. Call me a complainer all you want you clearly have no idea how business works. If no one complains then companies assume what they are doing is what people want. Its simple and if you think I am joking I will PM you the number to the purchasing department of a major surgical hospital and you ask that guy (he is me).

Naa you are not a complainer at all. Similar situation. Have fists full of money. Been modeling for 40+ years. Love the 40K lore but I absolutely dislike upper corporate management. It is their decision to (potentially) price themselves out of business in order for short term game. Regardless what the white knights will say. This game is expensive for the average person to get started. It is getting harder for the average person who is in the GW hobby to stay in the GW hobby. And that is the problem that is shown in the current GW Financial report.

You just have to sift through the +50 pages of voodoo accounting and mummified dry material (that will suck the life out of you for a day or so) to get the current answer for that fiscal year.

 cincydooley wrote:
Honestly. Had you not come off as a whiny complainer that you beat and quit (I mean, it sounds like you basically rage quit 40k) it would have been a lot easier to take anything you say seriously.

Reading between the lines a little (not meaning to put words in your mouth, Devoted), it sounds like his enjoyment of the game had been deteriorating for a while, and that battle and what it suggested about the direction of 40K (codex creep, "new hotness" models required to compete) was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Yeah, it reads like his problem is not that he was beaten, but because he feels that no-one has any real chance of a fair game against the new super-units.

He was doing well enough to place in a tournament, but was tabled by turn 2 due to a superunit. Which he then used in 3 games severely handicapped and still won.

His complaint isn't that he lost, it's that the new units are grossly overpowered and that takes all the fun out of it, as if you see your opponent has one in their list, you know you're going to be spending the next hour putting your figures back in the case.

It's not rage quitting, it's disliking the current direction.

The problem for many of us is the fact that we can remember buying a Space Marine battleforce for £40 and it wasn't that long ago.

 Davylove21 wrote:
The problem for many of us is the fact that we can remember buying a Space Marine battleforce for £40 and it wasn't that long ago.

The problem is for many, they've been having a love affair with games Workshop. And she's turned round and said "Your not what I'm looking for, I'm seeing someone else".

 loki old fart wrote:

 Davylove21 wrote:
The problem for many of us is the fact that we can remember buying a Space Marine battleforce for £40 and it wasn't that long ago.

The problem is for many, they've been having a love affair with games Workshop. And she's turned round and said "Your not what I'm looking for, I'm seeing someone else".

I remember getting some metal terminators for a quid each! Its more like I was having a love affair with GW, and then I got the early flight home and caught her being tag teamed by my old man and my grandpa!

 mattyrm wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 Davylove21 wrote:
The problem for many of us is the fact that we can remember buying a Space Marine battleforce for £40 and it wasn't that long ago.

The problem is for many, they've been having a love affair with games Workshop. And she's turned round and said "Your not what I'm looking for, I'm seeing someone else".

I remember getting some metal terminators for a quid each! Its more like I was having a love affair with GW, and then I got the early flight home and caught her being tag teamed by my old man and my grandpa!

I think it's more like having a love affair with GW and then marrying her

fishy bob wrote:
I think it's more like having a love affair with GW and then marrying her

More truth there than most would like to admit...
I remember some saying around the line of:

A man(customer) marries a woman(GW) hoping she does not change, a woman(GW) sees the potential in a man(customer) and tries to change him: neither gets what they want.


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 cincydooley wrote:
I'm not the one complaining about being priced out of 40k am I? And thats not because i have infinite fonts of money; i certainly don't. But i am able to budget for the things I do want to purchase. My priorities are just fine, thanks.

Agreed, 40k is a sufficient priority to you that you do not complain about being priced out. Do not fail to let us know when your threshold is reached.
I am irritated that the Khorn mower was my first balking at the price of a model I wanted but I am still good for most other stuff.

 Talizvar wrote:

fishy bob wrote:
I think it's more like having a love affair with GW and then marrying her

More truth there than most would like to admit...
I remember some saying around the line of:

A man(customer) marries a woman(GW) hoping she does not change, a woman(GW) sees the potential in a man(customer) and tries to change him: neither gets what they want.

More than that.
Some one said why can't they just quit. Why do they come on dakka, and tell everybody.
Well when you've just split up in a long time relationship, you tend to tell your m8s.
When the love affair with GW ends, you tell dakka.
For some the dakka community is the closest thing to friends they have.
Some people have had a longer relationship with GW, than their wife/girlfriend.
So you can be supportive or take the P*ss.

The best part about the 40k setting was the sandbox approach you could take to building your models.

With the death of bits sellers, the cost to kitbash large kits together is ludicrously expensive... in the $100's of dollars expensive, considering that most large kits are $75-$85 in these neck of the woods. There's always trading, but it isn't always possible to trade for hull/body parts, and many of the most sought after weapons are nearly impossible to trade for.

Even at 20% off, web purchase, I can't justify it, even though I can easily afford it.

 loki old fart wrote:
More than that.
Some one said why can't they just quit. Why do they come on dakka, and tell everybody.
Well when you've just split up in a long time relationship, you tend to tell your m8s.
When the love affair with GW ends, you tell dakka.
For some the dakka community is the closest thing to friends they have.
Some people have had a longer relationship with GW, than their wife/girlfriend.
So you can be supportive or take the P*ss.

Thanks for taking that further, a good and mature way of looking at it.

Not sure I would like to point out to my wife I have a longer relationship with GW than her (which is true), she may say "challenge accepted" and you all will be seeing my stuff on ebay followed by her ipad and all her books... it would be ugly.

We keep turning to logic looking for supporting evidence, it really boils down to a feeling - take it or leave it.

 Talizvar wrote:
Agreed, 40k is a sufficient priority to you that you do not complain about being priced out. Do not fail to let us know when your threshold is reached.
I am irritated that the Khorn mower was my first balking at the price of a model I wanted but I am still good for most other stuff.

I think the Khorne mower is too expensive for the size of the kit. Plus I don't play or have any interest in playing Chaos.

I won't be buying one.

I think the Wraithknight is fairly appropriately priced for the size, but is still expensive. I own one. I won't be purchasing another "on a whim" like I might if it were less expensive. I'll simply plan on when I'm spending that money.

Truth be told, buying new wargaming kits has taken a back seat, in general, lately to saving for family planning, paying for my wife's graduate school (again, in cash), and gun sports.

I'm pretty tempted to get some of the new Lizardmen kits though. I think they look just peachy. But we'll see if there's anything else I'd rather spend my budgeted discretionary income on (we may put in wood floors at the house; not sure yet).

Oh, all the while I've been able to play both 40k and Fantasy with models I already have without being or feeling priced out.

Emperor Protect!

I've known GW at least 10 years longer than Ive known my wife!

I'll say this:
GW was less expensive

But life with my wife has been more fun.

“The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything.”

Friedrich Nietzsche

I try not to buy any GW stuff as possible. I use Mantic for minis specially troops and eliets. Avatars of War is good too.

And for paints and washes I use Vallejo, P3, Folk Art, Secret Weapons and Army painter.

 Talizvar wrote:

“The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything.”

Friedrich Nietzsche

Nietzsche went after his sister. Yuck!

But I agree with the quote

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

“The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything.”

Friedrich Nietzsche

Nietzsche went after his sister. Yuck!

But I agree with the quote

relatives are the most dangerous forbidden plaything...

 Spacemanvic wrote:
Nietzsche went after his sister. Yuck!
But I agree with the quote

I think you misunderstood of how he went after her: she forged many documents of his, manipulated him and modified his works to look like he supported the Nazis his relationship with her was not as "positive" as you state.
No works I have seen said he was interested in his sister (would be interested if you could point to something though!).
The person he was most interested in was "Lou von Salomé" she was of a similar mind as him and he offered multiple offers of marriage.
He was a guy prone to depression but he had a scary way of cutting through BS which I am grateful for so I quote him often... I will apologize now.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

“The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything.”

Friedrich Nietzsche

Nietzsche went after his sister. Yuck!

But I agree with the quote

relatives are the most dangerous forbidden plaything...

Forbidden nothing, you mean gross. Unless youre from West Virginia...


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 Talizvar wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:
Nietzsche went after his sister. Yuck!
But I agree with the quote

I think you misunderstood of how he went after her: she forged many documents of his, manipulated him and modified his works to look like he supported the Nazis his relationship with her was not as "positive" as you state.
No works I have seen said he was interested in his sister (would be interested if you could point to something though!).
The person he was most interested in was "Lou von Salomé" she was of a similar mind as him and he offered multiple offers of marriage.
He was a guy prone to depression but he had a scary way of cutting through BS which I am grateful for so I quote him often... I will apologize now.

Nietzsche last book "My sister and I" detailed some of the incestuous relationship he had with his sister. It was written right after his mental collapse though.

Anyway, back on topic: GW, the company ya hate to love (or love to hate). While I most likely will not be buying any current models, I will be buying the new Spacehulk for PC and probably droid.

 Spacemanvic wrote:
Nietzsche last book "My sister and I" detailed some of the incestuous relationship he had with his sister. It was written right after his mental collapse though.

That has been argued since his sister had full access and rights to his works and it had been claimed (repeatedly) that she had edited choice areas of his work to her own ends. MANY people better than me have argued this out so your statement is understandable.

Anyway, back on topic: GW, the company ya hate to love (or love to hate). While I most likely will not be buying any current models, I will be buying the new Spacehulk for PC and probably droid.

PC space hulk could be fun, liked all other turn based GW stuff...