sturguard wrote: "Helm of Durfast. Bearer rerolls failed to hit and gains ignores cover"
This is kind of funny, so what gun can a character get that is more than 12 inch range? I guess the one combimelta shot you get would ignore cover or the 2 combiplasma shots. How much does it cost?
Give it to a rune priest, suddenly those spells become quite a bit more nasty. That is the only model I can think of giving it to.
Anpu42 wrote: [quote=Mywik 608942 7096065 b90a9fc803eeb95be91ec8f3328ad5cc.png
Sorry to see no ++ Save, but the rest look good. At least until the FAQ removes the Rending.
I dont see that coming. Its so crystal clear. The sentence is literally "All close combat attacks made by a model with a thunderwolf mount have the rending special rule."
Before there was an explicit exception and now theres nothing else than this sentence so im 100% sure its intended.
That just me being pessimistic for once. I am still upset from when they removed it from the last one.
Whats sick is that in the old codex you were able to buy 1 special cc weapon per squad. Now theres no such restriction anymore. You can mix and match how you want. Pair that with rending on all cc attacks and it gets nasty.
So does the Weapon Load out work? Same options at the old one, but without the limit or more like Wolf Guard?
Simple. Any model may take items from the melee weapons list. Which is the same list for everyone that has access to melee weapons (except terminators which have their own list). So same like WG.
This might be a pedantic question but I need to know for sure. TWC can take chainfists now? Can we get a rundown on point cost for special weapons available to them?
This makes me a very happy pup
Chain fist are restricted to Terminator Armor
Dang, guess I'll just have to stick with my rending thunderhammers then
Random Dude wrote: The Wolf Standard now gives +1 attack, right? Here's some fun addition for GH: 1 attack base, +1 for 2 cc weapons, +1 for standard, +1 for charge. 40 attacks on the charge is tearing through most infantry squads in the first round of combat.
And my Genestealers cry why they are not feared now more. Just curious, how much would all that cost for one mini?
16 points. 14 for base GH, +2 points for cc weapon.
Random Dude wrote: The Wolf Standard now gives +1 attack, right? Here's some fun addition for GH: 1 attack base, +1 for 2 cc weapons, +1 for standard, +1 for charge. 40 attacks on the charge is tearing through most infantry squads in the first round of combat.
And my Genestealers cry why they are not feared now more. Just curious, how much would all that cost for one mini?
16 points. 14 for base GH, +2 points for cc weapon.
OUCH! If I upgrade my Stealers, they are almost 20 points or close to it. Unit is so much better at CC and it can shoot. Not fair. Oh well. What can you do eh?
pretre wrote: Hmm. I guess ignores cover would be good for rune priests then..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow. Allied drop pod shenanigans.
In unbound just about everyone can drop pod their army now. I mean allied shenanigans like poding gk paladins are one thing but this is going to be disgusting. Another reason not to play unbound Oo
Random Dude wrote: The Wolf Standard now gives +1 attack, right? Here's some fun addition for GH: 1 attack base, +1 for 2 cc weapons, +1 for standard, +1 for charge. 40 attacks on the charge is tearing through most infantry squads in the first round of combat.
And my Genestealers cry why they are not feared now more. Just curious, how much would all that cost for one mini?
16 points. 14 for base GH, +2 points for cc weapon.
OUCH! If I upgrade my Stealers, they are almost 20 points or close to it. Unit is so much better at CC and it can shoot. Not fair. Oh well. What can you do eh?
Of course, I might run it like this:
9 Grey Hunters (CC Weapons, 2x Melta Gun)
Wolf Guard (Combi-Melta, Powerfist)
Wolf Standard
pretre wrote: Hmm. I guess ignores cover would be good for rune priests then..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow. Allied drop pod shenanigans.
In unbound just about everyone can drop pod their army now. I mean allied shenanigans like poding gk paladins are one thing but this is going to be disgusting. Another reason not to play unbound Oo
yeah but no one plays unbound...
Drop pod centurions or dominions or retributors with heavy flamers or SWS with demo charges.
Lets look at the GH thing- so 40 attacks, against WS 4 opponents, thats 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3.3 dead marines. That assumes a whole squad of 10 charges in, which let's face it, wouldnt happen. Those genestealers would get all their attacks first, most notably the Broodlord so most likely 3-4 marines would die before they got to attack, if the BL got off his psycher power, the squad might not even be able to attack.
The Rune Priest spells dont have better AP than 4, so I don't know why you would want them to ignore cover- the str 7 is ap- so unless you are targetting skimmers it isn't going to help much as most times you will need a 5+ to do anything with str 7. I had already started skimming through Telekinesis spells and they have some nice ones, with low AP but you wont ever get them off as they are WC 2 and 3- unless you have multiple Rune Priests and you just cast one spell (casting a WC 2 spell on avg takes 5 dice and 3 would be 7).
sturguard wrote: Lets look at the GH thing- so 40 attacks, against WS 4 opponents, thats 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3.3 dead marines. That assumes a whole squad of 10 charges in, which let's face it, wouldnt happen. Those genestealers would get all their attacks first, most notably the Broodlord so most likely 3-4 marines would die before they got to attack, if the BL got off his psycher power, the squad might not even be able to attack.
The Rune Priest spells dont have better AP than 4, so I don't know why you would want them to ignore cover- the str 7 is ap- so unless you are targetting skimmers it isn't going to help much as most times you will need a 5+ to do anything with str 7. I had already started skimming through Telekinesis spells and they have some nice ones, with low AP but you wont ever get them off as they are WC 2 and 3- unless you have multiple Rune Priests and you just cast one spell (casting a WC 2 spell on avg takes 5 dice and 3 would be 7).
I've done multiple playtests involving this type of GH squad drop podding near a SMtac squad. Even with overwatch, the SW wipe out the Tac squad every time. As for Genestealers, I'm not sure what would happen because I've never played against them. I probably wouldn't charge the stealers though, I would rapid fire boltguns until they die.
*edit because I didn't read your entire post the first time.
Can someone confirm the Lone Wolves entry? I had heard you can take one for every GH or BC squad and it doesnt count against a FOC slot.
Also, could you use the Fast Attack drop pod slot to put your own terminators in? I suppose you can but having a drop pod as a fast attack slot seems weird.
Just saying, rune priests are the only independent character who has a decent amount of shooting. Besides, its the twin linked I am more excited for with the rune priest. Living lightning is then just a step below tesla destructors (6" less range and no snap fire fun) Ignore cover is a nice bonus. Murderous hurricane against hordes isn't too bad with ignore cover.
The thought of an Iron priest joining up with some TWC is really awesome. I wonder how much of a point difference there will be between a TWC with thunderhammer, and an iron priest on TWC.
Also trying to figure out who would best be fit for some of those relics. The furious charge and armor of russ are the two that stand out the most to me.
sturguard wrote: Lets look at the GH thing- so 40 attacks, against WS 4 opponents, thats 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3.3 dead marines. That assumes a whole squad of 10 charges in, which let's face it, wouldnt happen. Those genestealers would get all their attacks first, most notably the Broodlord so most likely 3-4 marines would die before they got to attack, if the BL got off his psycher power, the squad might not even be able to attack.
The Rune Priest spells dont have better AP than 4, so I don't know why you would want them to ignore cover- the str 7 is ap- so unless you are targetting skimmers it isn't going to help much as most times you will need a 5+ to do anything with str 7. I had already started skimming through Telekinesis spells and they have some nice ones, with low AP but you wont ever get them off as they are WC 2 and 3- unless you have multiple Rune Priests and you just cast one spell (casting a WC 2 spell on avg takes 5 dice and 3 would be 7).
I've done multiple playtests involving this type of GH squad drop podding near a SMtac squad. Even with overwatch, the SW wipe out the Tac squad every time. As for Genestealers, I'm not sure what would happen because I've never played against them. I probably wouldn't charge the stealers though, I would rapid fire boltguns until they die.
*edit because I didn't read your entire post the first time.
So the SM tact squad, knowing the GH were in a pod, just let them drop down and double tap them? They didnt hide in a rhino, or use a screening unit- or have a counter assault unit ready to wipe out a drop podding unit? Playtesting a unit against another in a vacuum, usually doesnt give you an accurate picture of what happens in a game, but if it works for you, stick with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gwarsh41 wrote: Just saying, rune priests are the only independent character who has a decent amount of shooting. Besides, its the twin linked I am more excited for with the rune priest. Living lightning is then just a step below tesla destructors (6" less range and no snap fire fun) Ignore cover is a nice bonus. Murderous hurricane against hordes isn't too bad with ignore cover.
Your right, but I will bet the Helm is expensive, if I had to guess, I would say 40 pts (and this is just a wild guess).
sturguard wrote: Lets look at the GH thing- so 40 attacks, against WS 4 opponents, thats 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3.3 dead marines. That assumes a whole squad of 10 charges in, which let's face it, wouldnt happen. Those genestealers would get all their attacks first, most notably the Broodlord so most likely 3-4 marines would die before they got to attack, if the BL got off his psycher power, the squad might not even be able to attack.
The Rune Priest spells dont have better AP than 4, so I don't know why you would want them to ignore cover- the str 7 is ap- so unless you are targetting skimmers it isn't going to help much as most times you will need a 5+ to do anything with str 7. I had already started skimming through Telekinesis spells and they have some nice ones, with low AP but you wont ever get them off as they are WC 2 and 3- unless you have multiple Rune Priests and you just cast one spell (casting a WC 2 spell on avg takes 5 dice and 3 would be 7).
I've done multiple playtests involving this type of GH squad drop podding near a SMtac squad. Even with overwatch, the SW wipe out the Tac squad every time. As for Genestealers, I'm not sure what would happen because I've never played against them. I probably wouldn't charge the stealers though, I would rapid fire boltguns until they die.
*edit because I didn't read your entire post the first time.
So in this vacuum, the Tact squad didnt rapid fire the Space Wolves (20 shots, 13 hits, 6.5 wounds, 2 dead SW) or simply move away from the SW and single shot? Play testing a squad against a squad rarely gives you a good idea on how the unit will perform on the battlefield.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gwarsh41 wrote: Just saying, rune priests are the only independent character who has a decent amount of shooting. Besides, its the twin linked I am more excited for with the rune priest. Living lightning is then just a step below tesla destructors (6" less range and no snap fire fun) Ignore cover is a nice bonus. Murderous hurricane against hordes isn't too bad with ignore cover.
Your right, but I will bet the Helm is expensive, if I had to guess, I would say 40 pts (and this is just a wild guess).
The point I'm trying to make is that GH have a huge statistical advantage against TAC marines in CC (Which happens to support the fluff).
But they cost more than Tac marines. And if the Tac marines are say IF, then some of them stand back up due to FNP. And those tact marine double tap those bolters just as well as GH and those GH die just as easily at Tac marines. And getting into assault is extremely difficult with any unit in 7th edition, it isnt something that just automatically happens- that is my point.
Random Dude wrote: Anyone else wishing DP were assault vehicles for all marines.
Fixed that for you.
Personally I'm still waiting for fast assault rhinos. That alone would fix so much. There's a pic in the old visions of heresy book that shows wolves firing from an open topped rhino, why can't any marines, wolves, templar, or blood angels figure out how to do that again?
Dude, I would be happy if you could assault from outflank... or from a vehicle...
Making all vehicles assault vehicles would really help balance the shooting and assault phases. Do Drop Pod doors really have a delicate 12-step opening process?
Way back in 3rd edition a tactic was called the Rhino rush as it was easy to drive a bunch of rhinos up the board, disembark and assault. Many people didnt enjoy it and it made assault far more powerful than shooting. So the pendulum has swung to where shooting is more powerful than assault. I would prefer a balance.
Gwar, I am sure he meant assaulting once the pod has landed and no Dude you can't. You drop, then the following turn you may move and assault normally.
Lone Wolves- please someone confirm they do not take up a FOC slot for each GH, BC, WG unit you include- of everything, that at least would make my day.
Also, what are upgrade costs for a Lone Wolf, how much for terminator armor and storm shield?
Drop pods are open topped, which means they are assault vehicles. There is a rule that prevents you from assaulting when coming out of reserves. Otherwise TDA and daemons would be popping up all over and walking into combat with no issues.
Also, I dont think anyone has mentioned this yet, but wolf claws are different now and not just the higher cost.
They are essentially frost weapons now, giving +1S as well as AP3 and shred. Stick 2 of those on your TWC with 4 attacks base for a nice 5 S6, AP3 attacks with rending and shred...
Gideon999 wrote: Also, I dont think anyone has mentioned this yet, but wolf claws are different now and not just the higher cost.
They are essentially frost weapons now, giving +1S as well as AP3 and shred. Stick 2 of those on your TWC with 4 attacks base for a nice 5 S6, AP3 attacks with rending and shred...
Does Ragnar still grant his unit +d3 attacks on the charge? If so, it opens the door for more GH addition: Player rolls a 5 or 6 on the d3, Grey Hunters get +3 attacks on the charge. 1 attack base, +1 for 2 cc weapons, +1 for Wolf Standard, +3 for charge. 6 attacks each x10 = 60 attacks and a pile of dead stuff.
Gideon999 wrote: Confirmed Lone Wolves are one for each Troops choice you take and one for each unit of wolf guard (either type) in your army.
The do not take up a FOC slot anymore, and they no longer give up points if they dont get killed.
Oh... oh wow, oh man this is so cool. So we could like, double up on MSU. Bring a bunch of 5 man GH squads in pods with a specialist and combi weapon. Then for each one, have a TDA wolf guard deep strike in off the pods locator beacon the next turn.
Gideon999 wrote: Confirmed Lone Wolves are one for each Troops choice you take and one for each unit of wolf guard (either type) in your army.
The do not take up a FOC slot anymore, and they no longer give up points if they dont get killed.
So let me get this straight (my head is spinning a little right now)...there is the potential for using 9 Lone Wolves now? 3 from Elites and 6 from Troops?
Yep, 9 lone wolves is possible, or just go unbound and make a list of nothing but. :-)
I never ran ragnar, but I think he is pretty good. for the points.
He can reroll one failed save per turn, gets furious charge to him and his unit, gets rage and saga of the warrior born with a master crafted frost sword with rending.
Only downside is he must issue or accept challenges.
pretre wrote: It works differently now though and affects multiple units.
Within 6 inches. Being able to give all my GH units +1 attack would have been awesome. Since that saves me 10 points, I guess I could throw in a Combi-Melta on the Wolf Guard. The squad would look like this:
pretre wrote: I would sprint for TDA with WC/SS for 65. That's just a solid build and can deep strike supposedly.
Claws adding plus one strength has me torn. I think I still have to go with the hammer for +10... At 75 it is down from 85 in the last book AND you can deepstrike... So happy about LW and TWC... Really made up for some of our lost items. I am more upset with the GH loss of MoTW and multiple standards for modeling reasons but I think I'll use the power weapon/fist now as the werewolf since I never took that gear and make standards anyway and just tell my opponent there there to look awesome. Doubt I'll use the new standard if its pricy anyways.
Ravenous D wrote: I just got my copy of the dex, and jesus if GW is going to use pictures of models instead of art they need to up their painting game.
I've found most of the 'eavy metal painted models to look good. Are those worse than the 6th ed. codices?
Ravenous D wrote: I just got my copy of the dex, and jesus if GW is going to use pictures of models instead of art they need to up their painting game.
I've found most of the 'eavy metal painted models to look good. Are those worse than the 6th ed. codices?
Its far worse then the amazing artwork, and many of the models are drybrushed and unfinished.
Ravenous D wrote: I just got my copy of the dex, and jesus if GW is going to use pictures of models instead of art they need to up their painting game.
I've found most of the 'eavy metal painted models to look good. Are those worse than the 6th ed. codices?
Its far worse then the amazing artwork, and many of the models are drybrushed and unfinished.
The pics on the website look fine. Maybe my standards are lower.
Ravenous D wrote: I just got my copy of the dex, and jesus if GW is going to use pictures of models instead of art they need to up their painting game.
I've found most of the 'eavy metal painted models to look good. Are those worse than the 6th ed. codices?
Its far worse then the amazing artwork, and many of the models are drybrushed and unfinished.
It makes them more similar to Imperial armor books, but at least IA uses photoshop to add fog of war and remove bases.
So lone wolves. Someone elsewhere on the internet was saying they weren't as customizable. Is that true? Can you take them with TDA, a SS and a chain fist? TDAPF and combo weapon? Just what builds are illegal now?
Ravenous D wrote: Its uninspiring and bland. Its the same book with less, with point increases/rules removal and a major point decrease on thunderwolves.
Its another "meh" dex from the competitive side of things, its exactly where it was other then the giant sign over thunderwolves.
I'm fine with "exactly where it was". It's certainly better than the complete nerfs we've been seeing recently. Didn't characters go down in points?
Ravenous D wrote: Its uninspiring and bland. Its the same book with less, with point increases/rules removal and a major point decrease on thunderwolves.
Its another "meh" dex from the competitive side of things, its exactly where it was other then the giant sign over thunderwolves.
Your forgetting the game changing flyers. Assault flyers and pseudo heldrakes? Sign me up please.
Yeah, I'm loving the Stormwolf. Twin-linked Hellfrost Cannon (S8 AP1 or S6 AP3 blast), twin-linked lascannon, 2 twin-linked heavy bolters, and a 16 model capacity. Being an assault vehicle makes it even better. Throw Ragnar in there with 10 GH and you've got a pretty wicked assault unit.
Ravenous D wrote: Its uninspiring and bland. Its the same book with less, with point increases/rules removal and a major point decrease on thunderwolves.
Its another "meh" dex from the competitive side of things, its exactly where it was other then the giant sign over thunderwolves.
Your forgetting the game changing flyers. Assault flyers and pseudo heldrakes? Sign me up please.
Hardly, if you call shooting it down in one turn while the occupants burn to death screaming game changing, then sure. Its not hard to kill then a storm raven.
Super Newb wrote: Yeah so, what's the scoop on Lone Wolves? As far as limits to their customization...
This page and the previous one have pretty much all the costs for LW.
Lol no not at all. Do you know how many different combinations of options there are? All that was said that ss and chain fist isn't allowed. I'm wondering about other limitations. What they are... That sort of thing.
people complain when an OTT codex like eldar is released,
then when GW releases internally balanced codexes that are also well balanced externally and not OTT while still being unique and fluffy, people still complain...
I dont even play SW because before they just seemed like space marines with different models,
now that they have some good CC units, some good ways to get into CC, and more stuff that fits the "viking" theme... I am seriously considering keeping my snactus reach models and starting the army.
while I dont feel that this codex was a home run slam dunk 110% awesomeness like the new ork codex was, its still shaping up to be quite good overall.
all the character options look really cool, someone listed a storm sheild build guy for 50pts earlier.. thats just so much win right there, lots of options for customizing and converting
people complain when an OTT codex like eldar is released,
then when GW releases internally balanced codexes that are also well balanced externally and not OTT while still being unique and fluffy, people still complain...
I dont even play SW because before they just seemed like space marines with different models,
now that they have some good CC units, some good ways to get into CC, and more stuff that fits the "viking" theme... I am seriously considering keeping my snactus reach models and starting the army.
while I dont feel that this codex was a home run slam dunk 110% awesomeness like the new ork codex was, its still shaping up to be quite good overall.
all the character options look really cool, someone listed a storm sheild build guy for 50pts earlier.. thats just so much win right there, lots of options for customizing and converting
Being a former space wolf player, I think I have plenty to complain about. This army doesn't feel like it got "updated". The army wasn't top teir in 6th and it dang sure isn't even close to top teir now. So once again it's a middle of the road blah codex. Fluff? They took some fluff out. The army got nerfed more than buffed or balanced. Giving them flyers doesn't change this IMO.
Gideon999 wrote: Not a valid config actually. You can have a storm shield but you can only pair it with combiweapon, wolf claw or thunderhammer.
that config with combi is 55, with wolf claw is 65, with thunder hammer is 75.
I think all of those cost way too much. SM assault Terminators are 45pts with SS and TH, I know SW ones get the bonus that they can mix and match more, but IMO it's not worth nearly that much.
So are standard WG Termies just Power Weapon and Storm Bolter? How many points for those?
Gideon999 wrote: Not a valid config actually. You can have a storm shield but you can only pair it with combiweapon, wolf claw or thunderhammer.
that config with combi is 55, with wolf claw is 65, with thunder hammer is 75.
I think all of those cost way too much. SM assault Terminators are 45pts with SS and TH, I know SW ones get the bonus that they can mix and match more, but IMO it's not worth nearly that much.
So are standard WG Termies just Power Weapon and Storm Bolter? How many points for those?
45 points for TH/SS termies is the exact same as the SM codex, so no complaints from me about the price. It's 225 for 5, in the old codex it was 345.
Gideon999 wrote: Not a valid config actually. You can have a storm shield but you can only pair it with combiweapon, wolf claw or thunderhammer.
that config with combi is 55, with wolf claw is 65, with thunder hammer is 75.
I think all of those cost way too much. SM assault Terminators are 45pts with SS and TH, I know SW ones get the bonus that they can mix and match more, but IMO it's not worth nearly that much.
So are standard WG Termies just Power Weapon and Storm Bolter? How many points for those?
45 points for TH/SS termies is the exact same as the SM codex, so no complaints from me about the price. It's 225 for 5, in the old codex it was 345.
Unless I missed something, WGTH/SS are 75pts, SM codex termies are 45pts.
So 5 WG termies with TH/SS are 375pts Unless I've misread what Gideon wrote.
Gideon999 wrote: Not a valid config actually. You can have a storm shield but you can only pair it with combiweapon, wolf claw or thunderhammer.
that config with combi is 55, with wolf claw is 65, with thunder hammer is 75.
I think all of those cost way too much. SM assault Terminators are 45pts with SS and TH, I know SW ones get the bonus that they can mix and match more, but IMO it's not worth nearly that much.
So are standard WG Termies just Power Weapon and Storm Bolter? How many points for those?
45 points for TH/SS termies is the exact same as the SM codex, so no complaints from me about the price. It's 225 for 5, in the old codex it was 345.
Unless I missed something, WGTH/SS are 75pts, SM codex termies are 45pts.
So 5 WG termies with TH/SS are 375pts Unless I've misread what Gideon wrote.
Gideon999 wrote: Not a valid config actually. You can have a storm shield but you can only pair it with combiweapon, wolf claw or thunderhammer.
that config with combi is 55, with wolf claw is 65, with thunder hammer is 75.
I think all of those cost way too much. SM assault Terminators are 45pts with SS and TH, I know SW ones get the bonus that they can mix and match more, but IMO it's not worth nearly that much.
So are standard WG Termies just Power Weapon and Storm Bolter? How many points for those?
Oh sorry, I was looking at Lone Wolf points and reading it as WG points. This thread is getting really hard to follow now
I guess I'll head over to GW today and check it out myself... can't see myself buying it at the moment though, it's not really motivating me to pull my SW out to play with them.
Call me crazy, but the first two releases of 7th edition have much better internal balance than we are accustomed to and should show good external balance between themselves as well. Heck, we can extend that back through Tara Militarum and to a lesser degree Tyranids.
That makes 3-4 Internally balanced and Externally Balanced codices in a row and can be indicative of a trend. Maybe things are looking up from a balance perspective after the travesty that was Eldar in 6th.
Of course, the nerf releases don't stand up to Eldar or SM individually, but unlike the 6th and especially the 5th edition codices before there is pretty damned good internal and external balance at work.
Let's look at the trend towards the future, if that is well balanced codices, even if they are weaker than Eldar and sM, that is a good thing and the game will be far better balanced for it.
Zagman wrote: Call me crazy, but the first two releases of 7th edition have much better internal balance than we are accustomed to and should show good external balance between themselves as well. Heck, we can extend that back through Tara Militarum and to a lesser degree Tyranids.
That makes 3-4 Internally balanced and Externally Balanced codices in a row and can be indicative of a trend. Maybe things are looking up from a balance perspective after the travesty that was Eldar in 6th.
Of course, the nerf releases don't stand up to Eldar or SM individually, but unlike the 6th and especially the 5th edition codices before there is pretty damned good internal and external balance at work.
Let's look at the trend towards the future, if that is well balanced codices, even if they are weaker than Eldar and sM, that is a good thing and the game will be far better balanced for it.
Only time will tell, but things are looking up!
I appreciate your optimism! I'm inclined to agree. I haven't read through the Ork codex, but the SM, AM, and SW seem to be well balanced (if not extremely powerful).
Zagman wrote: Call me crazy, but the first two releases of 7th edition have much better internal balance than we are accustomed to and should show good external balance between themselves as well. Heck, we can extend that back through Tara Militarum and to a lesser degree Tyranids.
That makes 3-4 Internally balanced and Externally Balanced codices in a row and can be indicative of a trend. Maybe things are looking up from a balance perspective after the travesty that was Eldar in 6th.
Of course, the nerf releases don't stand up to Eldar or SM individually, but unlike the 6th and especially the 5th edition codices before there is pretty damned good internal and external balance at work.
Let's look at the trend towards the future, if that is well balanced codices, even if they are weaker than Eldar and sM, that is a good thing and the game will be far better balanced for it.
Only time will tell, but things are looking up!
I don't really know all that much about the Ork codex, but the old SW didn't really need all that much and we didn't really get all that much, so in that sense we can be happy.
The IG codex also was already a pretty solid codex, it didn't change much, a nerf to the Vendetta and it was pretty much fine. For some reason they nerfed the Hydra which was a bit random. The more disappointing thing was the removal of a lot of special characters and some units.
The old Tyranid codex was a horrible unbalanced mess before and the new Tyranid codex is also a horrible unbalanced mess.
So I'm not seeing a huge trend of the game as a whole improving, but we'll see once a few more codices come out.
I got the codex 1 day early. After reading through it, it seems like the buffs we got don't make up for the nerfs. Ulrik is worth taking now, and a rune priest in TDA should be an auto include for 115 points at lvl2 with a storm bolter. TWC also got much better with less points and more access to war gear. A str8 ap1 Lance on a flyer will be tough to deal with and anything dedicated to shooting that down is going to be ignoring the WGTDA about to assault their flank and the GH dropping down everywhere. We now have the option to pod in tig with some grav cents (re roll hits and wounds? Yes please!). It's much more internally balanced than the old codex and it is externally balanced with all the newer codexes. Eldar and Tau will still table us more often than not though. BC still suffer from being a CC dedicated unit in a shooting game. No more chooser, wolf tail talisman, wolf tooth necklace or standard in every unit. The standard we have is probably not worth the points when MSU is the way to go. The psychic powers and warlord traits are mostly inferior to the ones in the BRB. I'm going to play some 1850 games this week and try different lists out. Maybe once they update some of the OP armies running around this dex will be more competitive.
Had a look at the new codex today, I'm not really liking the new format of wargear list at the start, wargear rules at the back, unit rules in the middle with photos rather than artwork.
Granted it wouldn't bother me so much if it weren't for the fact they're asking a friggin fortune for their books.
Rules themselves look fine, I didn't really spend a lot of time trying to find anything that hasn't already been answered since I figure everyone will have the codex within the next few days.
I HATE flipping back and forth between war gear cost and war gear rules. I'm about to take pics of the pages on my phone so I don't have to do that nonsense. 12 hours into having the codex and it already bugs the hell out of me.
Sorry if this been asked already, but how does the storm-shield/axe upgrade work for the Dreadnought? Do you have to take them as a pair, or can you take the stormshield and still keep a ranged weapon?
BlaxicanX wrote: Sorry if this been asked already, but how does the storm-shield/axe upgrade work for the Dreadnought? Do you have to take them as a pair, or can you take the stormshield and still keep a ranged weapon?
They have to be taken as a pair. So much for all those helfrost/shield combos we all wanted. And Bjorn's the only one who can take helfrost to boot.
I'm pretty sure Ulrik and TDA rune priest are going in every list I ever make now. Ulrik is 35 points cheaper and gained fear and saga of the beast slayer. Rune priest is 40 points cheaper.
Daston wrote: Well its as expected. After my Orks got fethed over my beloved space wolves got the same treatment.
Can Logan actually be fielded without being a lord of war?
Its not as if he is comparable to a titan which is what I would face if I used him.
No, he's got his own little section and symbol and everything but his new chariot is actually pretty decent and he's gone down in points. Can't imagine too many normal point games that someone's going to throw a titan down on the field.
Daston wrote: Well its as expected. After my Orks got fethed over my beloved space wolves got the same treatment.
Can Logan actually be fielded without being a lord of war?
Its not as if he is comparable to a titan which is what I would face if I used him.
No, he's got his own little section and symbol and everything but his new chariot is actually pretty decent and he's gone down in points. Can't imagine too many normal point games that someone's going to throw a titan down on the field.
Daston wrote: Well its as expected. After my Orks got fethed over my beloved space wolves got the same treatment.
Can Logan actually be fielded without being a lord of war?
Its not as if he is comparable to a titan which is what I would face if I used him.
No, he's got his own little section and symbol and everything but his new chariot is actually pretty decent and he's gone down in points. Can't imagine too many normal point games that someone's going to throw a titan down on the field.
So I can't use my old model? That makes both 7th edition codex invalidate my models ffs.
Don't think I'll bother with this codex and spend more time on fantasy.
Daston wrote: Well its as expected. After my Orks got fethed over my beloved space wolves got the same treatment.
Can Logan actually be fielded without being a lord of war?
Its not as if he is comparable to a titan which is what I would face if I used him.
No, he's got his own little section and symbol and everything but his new chariot is actually pretty decent and he's gone down in points. Can't imagine too many normal point games that someone's going to throw a titan down on the field.
So I can't use my old model? That makes both 7th edition codex invalidate my models ffs.
Don't think I'll bother with this codex and spend more time on fantasy.
there's no reason you can't use your old model - the chariot is totally optional (forget how many points it is though)
Zagman wrote: Call me crazy, but the first two releases of 7th edition have much better internal balance than we are accustomed to and should show good external balance between themselves as well. Heck, we can extend that back through Tara Militarum and to a lesser degree Tyranids.
That makes 3-4 Internally balanced and Externally Balanced codices in a row and can be indicative of a trend. Maybe things are looking up from a balance perspective after the travesty that was Eldar in 6th.
Of course, the nerf releases don't stand up to Eldar or SM individually, but unlike the 6th and especially the 5th edition codices before there is pretty damned good internal and external balance at work.
Let's look at the trend towards the future, if that is well balanced codices, even if they are weaker than Eldar and sM, that is a good thing and the game will be far better balanced for it.
Only time will tell, but things are looking up!
I appreciate your optimism! I'm inclined to agree. I haven't read through the Ork codex, but the SM, AM, and SW seem to be well balanced (if not extremely powerful).
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the codexes so frequently decried as underpowered, such as Nids and orks, area actually indicative of the level 40k should be at. Tau, Eldar and one or two Demon build are in fact better than average, through quirks of rules, not the level every codex should expect to be at. Take those three out of the equation, and balance has been pretty consistent since the start of 6th. SW seem to occupy a similar level that goes towards confirming this trend.
Zagman wrote: Call me crazy, but the first two releases of 7th edition have much better internal balance than we are accustomed to and should show good external balance between themselves as well. Heck, we can extend that back through Tara Militarum and to a lesser degree Tyranids.
That makes 3-4 Internally balanced and Externally Balanced codices in a row and can be indicative of a trend. Maybe things are looking up from a balance perspective after the travesty that was Eldar in 6th.
Of course, the nerf releases don't stand up to Eldar or SM individually, but unlike the 6th and especially the 5th edition codices before there is pretty damned good internal and external balance at work.
Let's look at the trend towards the future, if that is well balanced codices, even if they are weaker than Eldar and sM, that is a good thing and the game will be far better balanced for it.
Only time will tell, but things are looking up!
I appreciate your optimism! I'm inclined to agree. I haven't read through the Ork codex, but the SM, AM, and SW seem to be well balanced (if not extremely powerful).
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the codexes so frequently decried as underpowered, such as Nids and orks, area actually indicative of the level 40k should be at. Tau, Eldar and one or two Demon build are in fact better than average, through quirks of rules, not the level every codex should expect to be at. Take those three out of the equation, and balance has been pretty consistent since the start of 6th. SW seem to occupy a similar level that goes towards confirming this trend.
So I agree, there's little to complain about.
I'm still on the fence about buying the codex though.
Zagman wrote: Call me crazy, but the first two releases of 7th edition have much better internal balance than we are accustomed to and should show good external balance between themselves as well. Heck, we can extend that back through Tara Militarum and to a lesser degree Tyranids.
That makes 3-4 Internally balanced and Externally Balanced codices in a row and can be indicative of a trend. Maybe things are looking up from a balance perspective after the travesty that was Eldar in 6th.
Of course, the nerf releases don't stand up to Eldar or SM individually, but unlike the 6th and especially the 5th edition codices before there is pretty damned good internal and external balance at work.
Let's look at the trend towards the future, if that is well balanced codices, even if they are weaker than Eldar and sM, that is a good thing and the game will be far better balanced for it.
Only time will tell, but things are looking up!
I appreciate your optimism! I'm inclined to agree. I haven't read through the Ork codex, but the SM, AM, and SW seem to be well balanced (if not extremely powerful).
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the codexes so frequently decried as underpowered, such as Nids and orks, area actually indicative of the level 40k should be at. Tau, Eldar and one or two Demon build are in fact better than average, through quirks of rules, not the level every codex should expect to be at. Take those three out of the equation, and balance has been pretty consistent since the start of 6th. SW seem to occupy a similar level that goes towards confirming this trend.
So I agree, there's little to complain about.
The power level of the 'nid codex is secondary to the fact it's horribly unbalanced, that's what people complain about more than the actual power level. Soooo many crappy units that can't find a place in a competitive game.
Just flipping through the SW codex, it actually looks to have pretty good balance.
Also, saying codices should be at X level while Tau and Eldar are above that isn't really a whole lot of comfort given, ya know, Tau and Eldar still exist. Every new codex might be better balanced, but the outliers feth things up until they themselves are replaced, which I don't imagine is going to be any time soon (though you never know with the current release cycle, maybe GW will just ignore Fantasy and keep re-releasing all the damned 40k armies on tight schedules ad infinitum.
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Random Dude wrote: I'm still on the fence about buying the codex though.
Yeah, I'm not sure I'm happy with the direction GW have taken with the SW and given the state of 40k in general I'm not convinced I actually want to buy the SW codex and take my SW army off the shelf.
Also, saying codices should be at X level while Tau and Eldar are above that isn't really a whole lot of comfort given, ya know, Tau and Eldar still exist. Every new codex might be better balanced, but the outliers feth things up until they themselves are replaced, which I don't imagine is going to be any time soon (though you never know with the current release cycle, maybe GW will just ignore Fantasy and keep re-releasing all the damned 40k armies on tight schedules ad infinitum.
Fair point, I agree. Just all too often I see people complaining that their codex isn't eldar-level good as if a new codex makes you entitled to an automatic power boost (which it doesnt if you don't need one). Of course eldar and tau are still throwing things out of whack, but the general trend towards a stabilising power level has to be a good thing in the long run.
anyone whos got the codex what are the stats and points like for this murderfang chappy any special things about him or is he another venerable but with a face
oh and the stormfang and stormwolf what are they like compared to a vendetta, valk
luftsb wrote: anyone whos got the codex what are the stats and points like for this murderfang chappy any special things about him or is he another venerable but with a face
oh and the stormfang and stormwolf what are they like compared to a vendetta, valk
luftsb wrote: anyone whos got the codex what are the stats and points like for this murderfang chappy any special things about him or is he another venerable but with a face
oh and the stormfang and stormwolf what are they like compared to a vendetta, valk
Zagman wrote: Call me crazy, but the first two releases of 7th edition have much better internal balance than we are accustomed to and should show good external balance between themselves as well. Heck, we can extend that back through Tara Militarum and to a lesser degree Tyranids.
That makes 3-4 Internally balanced and Externally Balanced codices in a row and can be indicative of a trend. Maybe things are looking up from a balance perspective after the travesty that was Eldar in 6th.
Of course, the nerf releases don't stand up to Eldar or SM individually, but unlike the 6th and especially the 5th edition codices before there is pretty damned good internal and external balance at work.
Let's look at the trend towards the future, if that is well balanced codices, even if they are weaker than Eldar and sM, that is a good thing and the game will be far better balanced for it.
Only time will tell, but things are looking up!
I appreciate your optimism! I'm inclined to agree. I haven't read through the Ork codex, but the SM, AM, and SW seem to be well balanced (if not extremely powerful).
IMO that only works if your willing to admit your mistake and patch the three busted books. Having balance in 2/3 of your army books is great, but when 75% of the field is using the unglued books then your not making the impact that you should be.
I agree it is better to stem the bleeding, but unless your sew the wound up, your just pissing off more gamers who patiently tolerated the abusive books hoping theirs would answer the call.
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Toofast wrote: I HATE flipping back and forth between war gear cost and war gear rules. I'm about to take pics of the pages on my phone so I don't have to do that nonsense. 12 hours into having the codex and it already bugs the hell out of me.
Yea I love how 3rd ed codexes had this annoying attribute as well. Apparently GW is just regressing with their format. When I bought the new Chaos book I was so annoyed by that regression as I knew it was how they'd all end up.
You need to flip back and forth for every unit entry just to purchase their equipment. This also makes checking others lists EXTREMELY frustrating.
Red Corsair wrote: IMO that only works if your willing to admit your mistake and patch the three busted books. Having balance in 2/3 of your army books is great, but when 75% of the field is using the unglued books then your not making the impact that you should be.
I agree it is better to stem the bleeding, but unless your sew the wound up, your just pissing off more gamers who patiently tolerated the abusive books hoping theirs would answer the call.
Yeah, every new codex that comes out that is NOT as powerful as the overpowered armies is just another kick in the balls reminding you that the game as a whole is fethed up and you get to wait another couple of years waiting for the next codex lottery to come round and see who is overpowered in the next batch.
I actually like the new format. I am not sure about the artwork, but that was never the big thing for me.
As far as the flipping back and forth, I see it no worse than any other, if not a little better.
The Guard book as an example
1] Look at the entry for the Unit in the back of the book and follow the Page Reference..
2] Got to the Unit Page Referenced and Find the page Reference(s) for the Wargear.
3] Go to the referenced page(s) to look up the Wargear.
Now you only have to look up the Wargear, everything else is on one page.
)
Unless I've misread what Gideon wrote.
