BobtheInquisitor wrote: I think they started on the wrong foot, too. Leaving exciting minis like the hunter and the shadow guy off the front page just ensured more backers would never see them. I think an awful lot of backers are like Bart's teacher, and you only get one chance with Edna Krabapple.
I think that I've come to understand, gradually, what is wrong with the campaign: core competency, or rather, an exceeding thereof. That is,
ME has Rules done by people that have worked with rules for years, polishing, trimming and filling an increasingly unwieldy system into something that is tournament friendly.
ME has Art done by people that are clearly not only proficient, but have a coherent aesthetic that they want to explore.
ME has Story done by writers that are eager to flesh out a new universe, to explore old tropes in new and interesting ways.
What ME (or SAS, better put) doesn't appear to have, is someone dealing with the Kickstarter foremost as an exercise in selling. This is seen in campaigns all the time, and it explains why sometimes amazing products fall through the cracks, but mediocre products that are well sold grow explosively. There is an art to selling, to its psychology and practice, and it just doesn't seem that the SAS team is thinking about it the right way.
Consider the three (well, 2 and half) bullet points I addressed to the team in an earlier post;
I think these are pretty elemental questions that an advertisement (and make no mistake, a kickstarter campaign page is first and foremost an advertisement) needs to address, quickly and unambiguously. Yet two (at least) people associated with SAS responded to my post in whole or in part, and I find myself no closer to answering these questions then before they responded.
Think of it another way: "I have a friend that like X, I think they would be interested in Maelstrom's Edge." What is X? When you think about your friends, that don't frequent Dakka, what is the characteristic that would make you say "I definitly need to let them know about this campaign".
I'll use just one example: I mentioned and harped on the fact that the term "Hard Sci-Fi" had disappeared from the kickstarter. The answer given was 'it was just a matter of space for words'. Let's not think about this in terms of a game, but purely in terms of advertising: call them buzzwords or key terms or whatever, things like 'Hard Sci-Fi' convey a lot of information to the potential buyer.
Imagine you saw a write-up for a movie that described it as 'Gothic Horror'. Then, shortly after all, you notice that the term 'Gothic' had been completely scrubbed from all the advertising. It's immediately confusing, and makes you think that either the first series of write-ups was deceptive, or that, perhaps, the makers didn't quite understand the terms they were using for their own product.
Gothic, Steampunk, Deiselpunk, Science-Fantasy, Hard Sci-Fi, Dystopian, Apocalyptic; all of these terms are loaded with meaning for the buyer, and when you see them appear and disappear, it makes you wonder "what is going on?". I'm not saying they shouldn't have used the term, or they should have kept it in, I'm saying that casually using such a loaded term and then completely dropping it creates confusion.
In and of itself, it's a tiny matter, but it may be a clue to why this campaign simply hasn't 'clicked' in the way that people expected it to.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I think they started on the wrong foot, too. Leaving exciting minis like the hunter and the shadow guy off the front page just ensured more backers would never see them. I think an awful lot of backers are like Bart's teacher, and you only get one chance with Edna Krabapple.
I think that I've come to understand, gradually, what is wrong with the campaign: core competency, or rather, an exceeding thereof. That is,
ME has Rules done by people that have worked with rules for years, polishing, trimming and filling an increasingly unwieldy system into something that is tournament friendly.
ME has Art done by people that are clearly not only proficient, but have a coherent aesthetic that they want to explore.
ME has Story done by writers that are eager to flesh out a new universe, to explore old tropes in new and interesting ways.
What ME (or SAS, better put) doesn't appear to have, is someone dealing with the Kickstarter foremost as an exercise in selling. This is seen in campaigns all the time, and it explains why sometimes amazing products fall through the cracks, but mediocre products that are well sold grow explosively. There is an art to selling, to its psychology and practice, and it just doesn't seem that the SAS team is thinking about it the right way.
Consider the three (well, 2 and half) bullet points I addressed to the team in an earlier post;
I think these are pretty elemental questions that an advertisement (and make no mistake, a kickstarter campaign page is first and foremost an advertisement) needs to address, quickly and unambiguously. Yet two (at least) people associated with SAS responded to my post in whole or in part, and I find myself no closer to answering these questions then before they responded.
Think of it another way: "I have a friend that like X, I think they would be interested in Maelstrom's Edge." What is X? When you think about your friends, that don't frequent Dakka, what is the characteristic that would make you say "I definitly need to let them know about this campaign".
I'll use just one example: I mentioned and harped on the fact that the term "Hard Sci-Fi" had disappeared from the kickstarter. The answer given was 'it was just a matter of space for words'. Let's not think about this in terms of a game, but purely in terms of advertising: call them buzzwords or key terms or whatever, things like 'Hard Sci-Fi' convey a lot of information to the potential buyer.
Imagine you saw a write-up for a movie that described it as 'Gothic Horror'. Then, shortly after all, you notice that the term 'Gothic' had been completely scrubbed from all the advertising. It's immediately confusing, and makes you think that either the first series of write-ups was deceptive, or that, perhaps, the makers didn't quite understand the terms they were using for their own product.
Gothic, Steampunk, Deiselpunk, Science-Fantasy, Hard Sci-Fi, Dystopian, Apocalyptic; all of these terms are loaded with meaning for the buyer, and when you see them appear and disappear, it makes you wonder "what is going on?". I'm not saying they shouldn't have used the term, or they should have kept it in, I'm saying that casually using such a loaded term and then completely dropping it creates confusion.
In and of itself, it's a tiny matter, but it may be a clue to why this campaign simply hasn't 'clicked' in the way that people expected it to.
I'm not denying that bringing across a project that is trying to hit on all levels of game, miniatures and universe of this scale in a few weeks of marketing is challenging, but having written the text you are talking about, I can assure you that there was no attempt to make the words hard SF disappear from the Kickstarter. The exact text that was originally in there was as follows:
When we set down to design the Maelstrom's Edge universe, we wanted to create a setting that would do justice to the game and miniatures. As gamers, we know that collecting an army from a deep and detailed setting is more satisfying than painting generic figures. We wanted to give our players a universe where they could explore and create, not just in our fiction but also when building their models and playing the game. To achieve that, we observe the following design goals:
A Believeable Universe – Increasingly in science fiction there has been a push towards grittier, more believable settings, but few games have embraced this style of fiction. We wanted a universe that was morally complex and populated with flawed characters – the technology may have changed, but mankind still faces the same problems it always has.
High-stakes – The design of both the Maelstrom’s advance and the relative difficulty of interstellar travel means that it is intentionally impossible for everyone to escape its destructive clutches. Worlds do not have the time or resources to evacuate everyone before they are destroyed. This forces the characters in our universe to confront cold, hard choices about what they do in the face of this implacable enemy – do they run, or try to save as many others as they can? Do they fight for the last remaining ships, or loot the helpless? By forcing humanity into such a difficult position, we want to encourage nuanced, morally grey decisions and characters.
Morally ambiguous – With the initial design goal to create a miniatures game where players would battle a number of different factions against each other, we wanted each of these factions to have a legitimate reason for conflict. There is no absolute good or evil faction in Maelstrom’s Edge – each organisation has its own understandable motives for the way it acts. We have also made sure to include friction within each organisation, to allow fights both between different factions and between splinter groups within each of them - so that if you and your opponent turn up with armies from the same faction, there's a logical reason why they might be fighting each other!
Scientifically rigorous – With believability key, we tried to keep the universe as rooted in the laws of physics as possible, whilst ensuring that when we did invent new things such as faster-than-light travel through the cybel network and alien lifeforms like the Angels, we constructed them to be internally consistent and believable. We want to avoid magic, psychics and other deus ex machina events unless backed up by a plausible scientific or technological explanation.
Unique – we wanted to avoid copying the over-used tropes of science fiction and create a universe that felt different to those that had come before. All our factions are carefully designed to avoid relying on a single source of inspiration from either fictional or historical influences. Maelstrom’s Edge is set in such a distant epoch that much of where humanity came from has been forgotten.
Not once do the words 'hard scifi' appear. We do however want a universe that is scientifically rigorous in terms of following scientific laws where appropriate, and where we stray from them, rigorous in its creation so that it makes sense within the universe, so that our fiction doesn't contradict itself. For example, I've spent a lot of time designing the interlinking mechanics of the cybel network and Maelstrom so that we get the balance right between a threat that drives our universe forward and forces characters and factions to make hard decisions, but whilst still offering them the hope of escape. I have a masters in astrophysics, a PhD in chemical physics and I work as a postdoctoral researcher in the Department of Materials at the University of Oxford, so although I really don't claim this to be a hard science fiction universe, I do hope to make it at least rigorous in its design based on my experience working in the scientific field.
I'm sure that we could do better with some aspects of our marketing - we're not perfect, we're a bunch of guys that got together to make a game the way we always wanted to, trying to get as high quality a ruleset, background, fiction and set of miniatures as we could, and based on the fact that we've done this from scratch under our own power I'm pretty proud of what we've created.
If you would like to make suggestions about how we can market our universe better, please feel free to make suggestions. But we do want to make it clear the facts of what was actually changed and why.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I think they started on the wrong foot, too. Leaving exciting minis like the hunter and the shadow guy off the front page just ensured more backers would never see them. I think an awful lot of backers are like Bart's teacher, and you only get one chance with Edna Krabapple.
I think that I've come to understand, gradually, what is wrong with the campaign: core competency, or rather, an exceeding thereof. That is,
ME has Rules done by people that have worked with rules for years, polishing, trimming and filling an increasingly unwieldy system into something that is tournament friendly.
ME has Art done by people that are clearly not only proficient, but have a coherent aesthetic that they want to explore.
ME has Story done by writers that are eager to flesh out a new universe, to explore old tropes in new and interesting ways.
What ME (or SAS, better put) doesn't appear to have, is someone dealing with the Kickstarter foremost as an exercise in selling. This is seen in campaigns all the time, and it explains why sometimes amazing products fall through the cracks, but mediocre products that are well sold grow explosively. There is an art to selling, to its psychology and practice, and it just doesn't seem that the SAS team is thinking about it the right way.
Consider the three (well, 2 and half) bullet points I addressed to the team in an earlier post;
I think these are pretty elemental questions that an advertisement (and make no mistake, a kickstarter campaign page is first and foremost an advertisement) needs to address, quickly and unambiguously. Yet two (at least) people associated with SAS responded to my post in whole or in part, and I find myself no closer to answering these questions then before they responded.
Think of it another way: "I have a friend that like X, I think they would be interested in Maelstrom's Edge." What is X? When you think about your friends, that don't frequent Dakka, what is the characteristic that would make you say "I definitly need to let them know about this campaign".
I'll use just one example: I mentioned and harped on the fact that the term "Hard Sci-Fi" had disappeared from the kickstarter. The answer given was 'it was just a matter of space for words'. Let's not think about this in terms of a game, but purely in terms of advertising: call them buzzwords or key terms or whatever, things like 'Hard Sci-Fi' convey a lot of information to the potential buyer.
Imagine you saw a write-up for a movie that described it as 'Gothic Horror'. Then, shortly after all, you notice that the term 'Gothic' had been completely scrubbed from all the advertising. It's immediately confusing, and makes you think that either the first series of write-ups was deceptive, or that, perhaps, the makers didn't quite understand the terms they were using for their own product.
Gothic, Steampunk, Deiselpunk, Science-Fantasy, Hard Sci-Fi, Dystopian, Apocalyptic; all of these terms are loaded with meaning for the buyer, and when you see them appear and disappear, it makes you wonder "what is going on?". I'm not saying they shouldn't have used the term, or they should have kept it in, I'm saying that casually using such a loaded term and then completely dropping it creates confusion.
In and of itself, it's a tiny matter, but it may be a clue to why this campaign simply hasn't 'clicked' in the way that people expected it to.
I actually agree with this post. This project has been tailor-made for a very specific group of people, but in its pragmatism and complete honesty, fails to convince people outside that group with the usual flashy art and promises of amazing models yet to come. There's just not enough magic and mystery, it's all laid bare and frankly not exciting enough for many people.
Another related point is that I think there has been almost too much communication. You have tons of team members excitedly answering the same questions in the news thread, to the point where it's such a mess of information that it's easier just to scroll past everything. I think there's something to be said for having one pr person who answers questions in a clear, consistent manner, while holding back some parts to avoid information overload.
I think it's partly a question of putting too much stock in what people say they want, as opposed to what actually gets them to open their wallets.
The rules are far from finished, so any legitimate constructive criticism about them is more than welcome. In fact, once the KS ends we will be doing a beta test period where we'll be desperately looking for such feedback.
However, the rules intro PDF naturally left a lot of fine details out of the picture in order to keep things relatively brief. So if you're finding just those core details baffling its pretty unlikely that those would be able to be changed, as they are obviously core to the overall design of the game.
I'd hope that when people see the full spectrum of the game with the faction/unit rules in place, etc, that you'd like it even more, but I know that every person has their own opinions of what they're looking for in a game and what makes a game good and/or bad, and that's just the reality of the world. If it was possible to create a 'perfect' set of rules that everyone loved, naturally someone would have done it by now! I tried to write the game that I always wanted to play (within the heavy restrictions of having to deal with the realities of model production) and hope that enough people out there have had similar desires over the years. The playtesting we've done so far has been pretty positive, so I'm hopeful, but I do know that many people will absolutely hate it, and am also ready for that.
I do like the artwork of the Mecha-Robots that I've just seen in this thread, and I don't mind the Religious guys (sans batfish), but realistically at this point I'd be looking at a $10 PDF which is more a show of support and goodwill to the hosts of Dakka than anything else - since I can't try and play the proper rules for free as I did with KoW (which has resulted in over a thousand dollars worth of buy-in just for KoW product in the last few years, as well as their other games.) As a PDF, it's at least as likely to sit around in my gaming folder unused alongside SoB&H, rather than find its way into active rotation. While I understand and respect your decision not to be proxy-friendly, that's essentially the big buy-in for me. Being able to (easily) use as many of the thousands of dollars worth of figures I've accumulated over my lifetime.
The background/fluff adds nothing to me. I'm not excited by it so I'd just ignore it completely. Please don't feel specifically slighted when I write that, as it applies to many (most!) game fictions, from Mantica to End-Times-era Old World to RH and RBG and Shoeldwolf and Minion's "unique" universes. This leave me lacking anything to draw me in, aside from an enjoyment of this website. Figures that knocked me on my arse with their amazingness in sufficient quantities would also do it, but the sculpts here are a mixed bag, and in the tiny quantities they're offered here, I just can't even pretend to want to care. 16 foot troops plus some bats and drones isn't worth my time to invest in another new game, let alone at a cost of US$90 (or $180) plus shipping.
I know I'm often critical of KS campaigns here, but the most disappointing thing for me here is that there's just no hook that works for me. I'm sure the rules will be good, but without the easy option to use my existing models and factions in place or alongside those figures that I dislike, I just kinda shrug and feel nothing about this project. It's like a much more well-organised and run Gates of Antares in a lot of ways to me. Priestly is a big part of why I'm here, but the figures/value/background just left me feeling blank. This one is very much the same.
I actually agree with this post. This project has been tailor-made for a very specific group of people, but in its pragmatism and complete honesty, fails to convince people outside that group with the usual flashy art and promises of amazing models yet to come. There's just not enough magic and mystery, it's all laid bare and frankly not exciting enough for many people.
Another related point is that I think there has been almost too much communication. You have tons of team members excitedly answering the same questions in the news thread, to the point where it's such a mess of information that it's easier just to scroll past everything. I think there's something to be said for having one pr person who answers questions in a clear, consistent manner, while holding back some parts to avoid information overload.
I think it's partly a question of putting too much stock in what people say they want, as opposed to what actually gets them to open their wallets.
There's not enough stuff to make me open my wallet. if we put aside the facts that this is both made by the people who own/run Dakka and is a Kickstarter, when I look at the contents is there enough content/product there to make me part with a hundred dollars?
Even if I liked all of the models, the $90 was in AU$ rather than US$, and it would ship for free tomorrow from a local source, I wouldn't buy it. 16 human models, 8 drones, 4 fish and 2 unseen models. And some new, non-established rules with templates & dice. The WM or Hordes starter boxes cost about the same, are a heavily established and proven set of game rules, and come with big impressive models.
This is a KS to pay for now, set to ship in December (so, say, hopefully by March) without enough stuff to make it interesting enough for me to buy it off the shelf tomorrow for the price. Figures are a kind of "insurance" for boxed games. Even if you never end up playing the game, you hopefully end up with a bunch of cool models you can paint up and hopefully use in other games. So a boxed miniatures game needs to be worthwhile in purely miniatures terms. The (perceived) value of the included figures really needs to outstrip the cost of the box, without taking the rules, tokens and dice into consideration. This is especially true for a new, unproven property.
Buzzsaw's analysis of our marketing/PR issues is very much spot-on and it is the one part of the project where we were under prepared.
We are absolutely confident that people will see the end quality of the game once they have it in hand and we will see strong organic growth, while we also learn on the run and improve our marketing and PR.
Today, we'll be putting out a major update and adding a load of stuff to the core boxed set (for free), to really push the value to the maximum.
As a direct response to your questions:
Who is this game/campaign intended to appeal to? Short answer: Anyone who is feeling tired or uninspired by the other games on the market at the moment, but still loves wargaming and painting and modeling.
Long answer:
If you find yourself unable to paint huge armies but want a tactically deep game, then Maelstrom's Edge is for you.
If you want multi-part, multi-pose plastic models which are trivial to convert and have detail down to 0.1mm (the finest in the industry), then Maelstrom's Edge is for you.
If you are bored of rulesets that are just minor evolutions/copies of others and want to try a game with a strong tactical dynamic then Maelstrom's Edge is for you. (Doubly so if you enjoy throwing large handfuls of dice around).
If you don't like to paint models for the sake of painting, but instead want to feel connected to a deeper universe with (by industry standards) absolutely top grade fiction and artwork then Maelstrom's Edge is for you.
If you want to learn to paint with an airbrush, then you'll find all of our models have been designed to make airbrush painting fast and easy, and are a great way to learn.
If you like building dioramas, then our flexible plastics and modular terrain will scratch that itch at a great price.
If you don't like buying a boxed set with a bunch of snap-together monopose models, and want to have real choice in your army building options every time you get a set, then Maelstrom's Edge is for you.
If you want to be part of a major sci-fi universe from day one, watching it evolve and improve, then Maelstrom's Edge is for you.
If you are tired of playing games where you have no hope of ever communicating with the rules team, fiction team or model team, then Maelstrom's Edge is for you.
-What is the selling point of this game? Ultimately, no other game on the market combines such a deep universe with a well thought out ruleset, versatile and detailed plastic models, ease of painting and a good price*
* Wait until later today to comment on any pricing thoughts as that is being shaken up
I actually agree with this post. This project has been tailor-made for a very specific group of people, but in its pragmatism and complete honesty, fails to convince people outside that group with the usual flashy art and promises of amazing models yet to come. There's just not enough magic and mystery, it's all laid bare and frankly not exciting enough for many people.
Another related point is that I think there has been almost too much communication. You have tons of team members excitedly answering the same questions in the news thread, to the point where it's such a mess of information that it's easier just to scroll past everything. I think there's something to be said for having one pr person who answers questions in a clear, consistent manner, while holding back some parts to avoid information overload.
I think it's partly a question of putting too much stock in what people say they want, as opposed to what actually gets them to open their wallets.
Perhaps you are right, but I've seen just as much criticism on projects which only speak very briefly through one PR mouthpiece and keep things more mysterious, and the other risk with that approach is your game is not being defined by you, but by the discussion.
I don't know that there is any perfect way to launch a new product as complex as this, but we want to keep being honest about what we've made because we think in the long term, people will appreciate that more than sales tricks. We're treating this kickstarter as a way of getting people to
know Maelstrom's Edge, not just a sales pitch but also an introduction to our work. We'll see in the future if that's a good move!
That said, both of you have made valid points and we appreciate your feedback. You won't have to wait long for those promised models either - we'll be showing them later today.
Who is this game/campaign intended to appeal to? Short answer: Anyone who is feeling tired or uninspired by the other games on the market at the moment, but still loves wargaming and painting and modeling.
There is the tagline I think Buzzsaw was looking for, but it also confirms my fear when looking over the project again and again - I might not be the target audience. I am the opposite of tired and uninspired, as I personally feel like there has never been a better time to be a wargamer than right now. Our group plays Deadzone, Warmahordes, Infinity, Kings of War, Dreadball, Mordheim and X-wing regularly, while we just started Wrath of Kings and SW: Armada. Every one of those games brings something awesome to the table in terms of gameplay and aesthetic, and the only reason we don't have more listed like Bolt Action or Planetfall is that there is only so much gaming time to go around. Notice that 40k isn't mentioned there once (even though we are more than happy to drag out our models and play a game with 3rd edition or whatever rules we like if the mood strikes). I have been scared from the first announcement that when you say "other games" all you really mean is those people currently disillusioned by 40k. The problem is that the segment of those people might not be as large as you think, and especially being on Kickstarter you are actually fighting harder with the non-40k games for dollars than 40k itself.
We actually had a couple of folks at our shop get wide-eyed when we said a crack team of rules, model, and fluff developers were making a squad-sized "Not-40k". When they saw the aesthetic, lack of faction diversity, and value proposition on day 1 though they both went right back to "We'll just keep playing 40k until we see if Warpath is any good" line that they've been in for over a year now.
Who is this game/campaign intended to appeal to? Short answer: Anyone who is feeling tired or uninspired by the other games on the market at the moment, but still loves wargaming and painting and modeling.
There is the tagline I think Buzzsaw was looking for, but it also confirms my fear when looking over the project again and again - I might not be the target audience. I am the opposite of tired and uninspired, as I personally feel like there has never been a better time to be a wargamer than right now. Our group plays Deadzone, Warmahordes, Infinity, Kings of War, Dreadball, Mordheim and X-wing regularly, while we just started Wrath of Kings and SW: Armada. Every one of those games brings something awesome to the table in terms of gameplay and aesthetic, and the only reason we don't have more listed like Bolt Action or Planetfall is that there is only so much gaming time to go around. Notice that 40k isn't mentioned there once (even though we are more than happy to drag out our models and play a game with 3rd edition or whatever rules we like if the mood strikes). I have been scared from the first announcement that when you say "other games" all you really mean is those people currently disillusioned by 40k. The problem is that the segment of those people might not be as large as you think, and especially being on Kickstarter you are actually fighting harder with the non-40k games for dollars than 40k itself.
We actually had a couple of folks at our shop get wide-eyed when we said a crack team of rules, model, and fluff developers were making a squad-sized "Not-40k". When they saw the aesthetic, lack of faction diversity, and value proposition on day 1 though they both went right back to "We'll just keep playing 40k until we see if Warpath is any good" line that they've been in for over a year now.
I'd originally typed:
Who is this game/campaign intended to appeal to? Short answer: Anyone who is interested in wargaming
but it seemed too bland, and the opposite that I've typed is too blunt as you say - something in between would be the sweet spot, but once again we are learning this type of marketing on the trot, so suggestions are very welcome!
I don't want to sound nit-picky, but since it seems like you are looking for honest feedback I thought I would chime in with my personal perspective.
First of all, I don't think I am your target audience. If I take a hard look at my wargaming time/expenditures, there is a definite trend towards small scale, heavily themed skirmish games with boutique miniatures. That's not ME. I am, however, spending more on table top wargaming than I ever have been.
That aside, I have been thinking about the table top wargames market a great deal as I prepare to release my own game/products, and and I think that discussions like this are interesting and productive.
I have found ME to be rather underwhelming. I think a big part of that is the advertising/marketing. ME sort of showed up out of left field, and I even saw it on the DCM forums before the wider announcement. There was a lot of promising without much delivery, by which I mean that you raised expectations by saying that this thing was going to be the best thing since sliced bread that nobody else is doing, and there was sort of an overload of information.
In contrast, for example, I know the name Icarus Miniatures. I know Icarus even though I will likely never buy any of the company's products. But I follow Icarus. I pay attention to Icarus. If I am honest with myself, I get excited about Icarus news. That seems really odd, right?
Icarus has become a regular part of my TTG internet routine because the company has been pretty darn consistently showing a piece of high quality concept art month after month after month after month. At first it was 'Oh, that's neat'. Then it grew to 'Icarus has a nice artist. I like their style'. Then it became 'These guys have got something really cool going on, I want to see where it goes'.
I know the name, I know the brand, I can identify Icarus as the source of a previously unseen piece from a thumbnail.
Same thing with Bad Roll Games. Who the feth is Bad Roll Games? Am I ever going to play Punkapocalyptic? Probably not. But I have almost all of the company's products. Weird, right? The game rules are serviceable, the models are interesting though a bit fiddley with lots of parts, but I really like the company.
Bad Roll always has a little something new going on, whether it is a little piece of artwork, a bit of fluff, a green, whatever. They are not so great on forums, but nevertheless, there's a trickle of consistent, on theme content that has made the company a familiar part of my routine. Follow that up with an overwhelmingly positive retail experience and they have themselves a pretty loyal customer.
Same thing with Infamy miniatures. I know the brand, I know the look, I know the products. Onslaught Miniatures, Skullduggery, Puppets War, Knight Models, etc. and so forth. They have hit me again and again and again with little, digestible bits of advertising. And have built up brand awareness.
Not so with ME. Way out of left field, LOTS of wordy content. Big promises, and WHAM! Kickstarter campaign. I haven't had time to become comfortable with the brand, and what is the actual company...Spiral Arm Studios? I think I got that right off the top of my head. I can't describe your logo though.
I think I may be having problems with the small number of infantry because of the use of the word squad, which to me means 8-10 soldiers when your actually meaning teams of 3-4 soldiers.....so I see six soldiers and I think weakened squad rather than two three man fire teams with mech or angel support.
Errg...I dislike Kickstarter. Is this going to significantly impact SAS's bottom line? Was this value the plan from the get go, or is SAS just trying to juice a so-so campaign in the hopes that funding will catch up to the box set value?
It just seems to me that there is a very real danger of 'chasing the dragon', so to speak, with Kickstarter. I've heard the same story too often.
Anyway, I can't deny that, quite literally, that image of the box contents alone caused me to be more excited about the campaign. There's now that subtle tug to back the campaign. I'm not, because I don't really want this product, but if I was turning a reaction dial it would have gone way up at the sight of the new box contents.
Maybe it is a value thing, maybe a variety thing, maybe a language thing, maybe the hidden models. I'm too close to my own gut reaction to parse it effectively. Nevertheless, the reaction was visceral and identifiable. It would be very interesting to see some advertising studies done on Kickstarter front page contents.
Errg...I dislike Kickstarter. Is this going to significantly impact SAS's bottom line? Was this value the plan from the get go, or is SAS just trying to juice a so-so campaign in the hopes that funding will catch up to the box set value?
It just seems to me that there is a very real danger of 'chasing the dragon', so to speak, with Kickstarter. I've heard the same story too often.
The latest kickstarter update more or less clears that question up.
As you've probably noticed above, we've just added a whole bunch more models to our sweet spot pledge! When planning the kickstarter, we were deliberately conservative. We left a healthy margin for ourselves to cover some very low likelihood risks, and planned to include a large number of additional models in the boxset as stretch goals when the volume of demand reached higher levels. The feedback we've received from talking to people on the Kickstarter page and on wargaming forums has made it very clear that people didn't think we had enough models in our $90 pledge. So we've decided to add as many of those additional plastic models as we can, effective immediately. But we still have 7 further unlockable stretch goals to add value to your pledges and the boxed set, so there is plenty of scope for future excitement! (Goal 8 is the second novel, but we are at the kickstarter character limit so have to cut content out to add that in.)
We had some great negotiations with our suppliers on Friday and as a result, and with some careful planning, we are able to fit a fair bit more in the boxed set. One side effect of adding all these additional models is that we have to simplify our packing process, which means that other than the terrain (which is handled at a separate facility), we will not be able to offer other add-ons for the moment. We intend to keep exploring this over the course of the kickstarter to try and find a way to make it work though!
We feel that adding these new models to the box makes the contents an incredible value for just $90. Don't forget - these are all full, multi-part, multi-pose high detail plastic models, allowing you to build forces where no two models look the same, and you'll have loads of spare parts left for conversions, dioramas and terrain when you are done! We've already made the moulds for the pictured miniatures as well, which is the main reason that we are able to have such a short turnaround on this project - HIPS development is a very slow process, but by having all of these models already produced, we have done everything in our power to ensure that we can deliver on our target delivery date of this year.
Looking at the new miniatures, and i honestly have to say I am slightly underwhelmed. In particular the hunter (And yes I know this is a nitpick) and their feet. Don't ask why, i love the rest of the model, but their feet seem... off.
As for the KS, I will definitely be pledging now, now doubt left in my mind. Even if this was a fallback in case of not enough pledges, i say it's worked - at least for me. I might even end up doubling!
It would, however, be great to see units (by that i mainly mean scarecrows, their models look great) as add-ons - I would definitely add a few more scarecrows. Becoming less excited about the karists, however, although the angel could pique my interest.
I know earlier I said the KS shouldn't be judged solely by the way it started, and I apologise for the way it was phrased. I didn't mean you were wrong by saying it had flatlined, you might prove to be correct, I was merely stating that you shouldn't write it off at the beginning. As for whether or not the kickstarter worked, they are past 150% of their target already.
Anyway, merely the thoughts of a lowly technomat, keep up the great work SAS!
I wasn't sure if I should address this. Please understand I am not trying to be critical here, but rather helpful. However, this post here speaks to glaring weaknesses with how you are promoting the campaign, and likely the eventual retail release.
legoburner wrote: Buzzsaw's analysis of our marketing/PR issues is very much spot-on and it is the one part of the project where we were under prepared.
We are absolutely confident that people will see the end quality of the game once they have it in hand and we will see strong organic growth, while we also learn on the run and improve our marketing and PR.
Today, we'll be putting out a major update and adding a load of stuff to the core boxed set (for free), to really push the value to the maximum.
The update was great. It really added a lot of perceived value to the main pledge level. Hopefully, you will be able to give us more information on all aspects of the product soon enough for our feedback to help shape the endgame of the kickstarter. Stretch goals for dice, for example, are somewhat uninspiring. If you need that 'fake stretch goal' in place to mitigate the huge price of the terrain sprue stretch goal--the goal everyone actually wants to hit--maybe add some more inexpensive content to appeal to different types? Maybe, "Stretch Goal 2: more dice, first international tournament event (Operation Fire Break) locked in, and we'll reveal what the Epirians really don't want you to know about Zycanthus." A sweetspot pdf of the design art can legitimize a stretch goal that might otherwise just add tokens. You can even add some in-universe fun to them and announce how many puppy-eyed refugees each stretch goal managed to ship off of Zycanthus.
As a direct response to your questions:
Who is this game/campaign intended to appeal to? Short answer: Anyone who is feeling tired or uninspired by the other games on the market at the moment, but still loves wargaming and painting and modeling.
Long answer:
If you find yourself unable to paint huge armies but want a tactically deep game, then Maelstrom's Edge is for you.
This is terrible. This isn't a sales pitch but a justification. You can't keep pointing out how Medge isn't 40k and then sell yourself as "tired of 40k? Medge!"
It sounds like you are offering a Total Gaming Experience, but for some reason are not selling Medge that way. You have:
-Rules designed for tournament play that simulate modern or near-future combat, with an emphasis on suppression, command, whatever. I don't know rules, but the people who like yours like them for a reason, and you should be shouting that reason. Also, you designed this game for tournament play and events, so please hype the hell out of that.
-Background is developed with the intent for immersive storylines that draw people towards their favorite armies. If you can name-drop the professional writers who are interested in your background, it would really help sell it as something worth investigating. One of GW's biggest sales tools is the Black Library, and I can't emphasize enough how much money that synergy between consumable fiction and collectible minis has made for GW just from my pocket alone. I'll post my thoughts on the story later, but for right now I find the biggest issue with the background is that it does not inspire me to break out some minis and blow gak up. The background should interact more with the games we play and the factions we choose. When we know what lies inside the Maestrom, that will help, assuming it's something worth fighting for or against in a military capacity. Or you could have the factions determine how to close cybel networks or redirect wave fronts to annihilate enemy worlds, so that each battle or campaign has epic consequences. And, no, I don't think it's fun to play a game to determine which side leaves behind fewer refugees on the doomed planet this week.
Honestly, it feels like you're dancing around the real strength of your background. David Drake made a career out of putting his Vietnam issues in space; you have a game where the wealthy elite send countless drones and recent highschool graduates out to blow up refugee camps in the hopes of eliminating violent religious extremists who use suicide tactics and (animal) slavery. So, why is the Maelstrom more like global warming when it would make more sense for your forces to spill space-blood for space-oil while spreading space-freedom? This is a narrative that we are all familiar with and will respond to.
-Miniatures. You have some great miniatures that no one else is competing with, but they aren't the minis you showcased in the critical first days. The drones and robots and aliens are all things no one else has in HIPS yet, and they make your product stand out. Wage slave soldiers and faceless stormtrooper types are literally 20 for $20 from several competitors right now. Be like water and strike where your opponent is weak, man. And keep in mind the great strength of plastic: the scale. If you sell boxes of 5 Contractors for barely cheaper than a box of 5 resin/metal/whatever minis everywhere else, you won't sell very many. Mantic sure seems to see the value in huge boxes with huge discounts per mini.
-Community. Being THE Dakka game should make this a no-brainer. Medge has a built in community. The creators are available to even the lowliest backer or potential customer. I'd love to see some discussions going, about the minis, the rules, the fluff, the prettiest color for cybel, why working for the Foundation is better than a McJob, whatever. At the very least, you have the ability to create and promote worldwide campaigns that will impact the evolving storyline. You can make each player feel important and connected. That's powerful.
So, what am I seeing here? How about a total package wargame. "Read the books and get psyched, then chose a strike force from your favorite faction, sign up for the next big tournament with all your buddies, and go bust some heads!" Medge has the potential to be an immersive experience. In my opinion, that is the strongest selling point.
(It's also why 40k is so hard to leave.)
To sum up: build up your game without any reference to any other games. Why do YOU like Medge?
If you want multi-part, multi-pose plastic models which are trivial to convert and have detail down to 0.1mm (the finest in the industry), then Maelstrom's Edge is for you.
No. It isn't.
That's Dreamforge and GW's schtick. And resin boutiques can 'beat' you on detail just by reputation.
Plastic is good, but any talk about fine details is just going to backfire. You have finely engineered plastic robots. You have plastic gribbly aliens. You have cheap plastic mooks to give them something to murderize for our entertainment, but those guys don't get coffee because they aren't your closers. What would YOU want to buy from Medge if you were a long time kickstarter user with tons of CMON, Mantic and Sedition Wars crap?
Hint: Cincydooley and Azazelx have both pledged for more minis kickstarters than some nations have citizens, and they're taking a pass on this. They might know a bit about why people spend money on minis, so it might be worthwhile to get their input.
If you are bored of rulesets that are just minor evolutions/copies of others and want to try a game with a strong tactical dynamic then Maelstrom's Edge is for you. (Doubly so if you enjoy throwing large handfuls of dice around).
EVERY game is tactically dynamic. Easy to learn but hard to master. Deep and wide and zzzzzzzzzzzz. Please use fewer pointless generalities and talk about what specific mechanics make your game fun and unique. Why did you choose those mechanics? If you tell the playtesters what feel you are going for, I'm sure they can help smooth your rules into something superb.
Thge first sentence on your kickstarter page should explain what makes your game good. "Use our ultra-modern command system to get the right unit to the objective while your fire teams suppress your opponent's crucial unit at the critical moment in a game of feint and counter-feint." Or something like that. But more interesting.
If you don't like to paint models for the sake of painting, but instead want to feel connected to a deeper universe with (by industry standards) absolutely top grade fiction and artwork then Maelstrom's Edge is for you.
Yes. Better. But try less negativity in the phrasing. "Bring new joy to your painting table as you breathe life into your favorite teams from our top grade fiction by some of today's most exciting authors"
If you want to learn to paint with an airbrush, then you'll find all of our models have been designed to make airbrush painting fast and easy, and are a great way to learn.
This should go in the comments somewhere, but doesn't really feel like a selling point. "If you've got expensive equipment and money to burn, please send a little our way?"
If you like building dioramas, then our flexible plastics and modular terrain will scratch that itch at a great price.
Terrain. Dioramas. Fiction. I smell contest. This is fertile ground for some kind of community interaction. I would like to know more.
If you don't like buying a boxed set with a bunch of snap-together monopose models, and want to have real choice in your army building options every time you get a set, then Maelstrom's Edge is for you.
Less boo on them, more yay on you. Please, tell us more about the Hunter's fine engineering. Got lots of pics? They'd be great right now.
Want to show us all the different effects a simple basecoat and wash can bring out on the angels and minnows? Wow, that makes me want to buy more to try out some new techniques! You mean, you can use one up wing and one down wing to model a turning or injured minnow? I never would have thought such a simple kit could do so much!
You can use the Epirian's spare weapons and some terrain sprue bits to make an awesome bunker? I'm sold. Modular plastics are the best.
If you want to be part of a major sci-fi universe from day one, watching it evolve and improve, then Maelstrom's Edge is for you.
This is good, but make sure you include those players. A major sci fi universe that the gamers can shape from day one? Can't find that this side of Antares.
If you are tired of playing games where you have no hope of ever communicating with the rules team, fiction team or model team, then Maelstrom's Edge is for you.
Why always with the "tired"? How about more with the "excited"? "We think you'll love being part of a game that evolves as the designers come to you for ideas/results/hugs. You can talk to our writers, sculptors and rules committee whenever you like. Your enthusiasm inspires us to keep upping our game."
-What is the selling point of this game? Ultimately, no other game on the market combines such a deep universe with a well thought out ruleset, versatile and detailed plastic models, ease of painting and a good price*
* Wait until later today to comment on any pricing thoughts as that is being shaken up
If you can find some bite-sized buzzword that encapsulates all that, it will really help you get your foot in the door. You have a total hobby experience, an immersive tabletop game that people can keep enjoying even on their lunch breaks (novels and discussions), with wallet-saving plastic minis you can't get anywhere else (drones, robots). Seems like that should be easy to explain in sales speak.
Who is this game/campaign intended to appeal to? Short answer: Anyone who is interested in wargaming
but it seemed too bland, and the opposite that I've typed is too blunt as you say - something in between would be the sweet spot, but once again we are learning this type of marketing on the trot, so suggestions are very welcome!
It's not actually that bad. In fact, that seems like a pretty big market. Just be sure to make them sound like the discerning customers with class and taste that they are.
"Anyone who is interested in wargaming and demands more"? That's me!
I definitely think the ks page would benefit from some shots of models on a gaming table, using the scenery that you've created. It would really give a better taste of the game, than simple shots of figures on white backgrounds. If you check out mantics last ks there were loads of shots of the forces in their scenery.
Also I didn't notice any faction logos/symbols which would help give them more character. I was hoping for a bit more character been displayed for each of the forces.
The designs aren't that great. And after another roundtable discussion with some of my gaming buddies, we again were baffled at some of the rules design decisions. Several of us really WANT to like it, but when both the rules and sculpts are just not good...
I hate to say it, but I think you and I and Azazelx will probably be picking up models from Miniature Market's Black Friday clearance sale.
I hope you and your friends will give Spiral Arm Studios your input. I think you make a lot of very important points about pointless token moving that doesn't add any decision making to the game.
As for the Black Friday clearance... I am worried about that, too. Too many new games end up in the bargain bin because of mistakes made during, or even before, the kickstarter. I really hope Medge finds its stride soon.
If no one else has made any, I'll try my hand at it. I figure the Karists will use something easy to scrawl on a wall or scrape into sand and then brush away, say a simple spiral with points in the cardinal directions, or a spiral with a symbolic ray coming down. The Epirians should have a fairly bland corporate logo, with perhaps a great font to use on official letterhead.
I see them now. I think, thematically, that the Karist's logo would look good in a less polished format. The official logo will look good on packaging, but what's the fun of cutting edge fanaticism if you don't get to spraypaint your faith on anything that doesn't move (anymore)?
I just read the novel extract, and I'm really not fan of the writing. I hate to be blunt but it's simply not strong, and sadly nothing makes me want to read any more of the book. A lot of awkward sentences and weak descriptions. I say this as a books industry professional, having been buyer for two of the largest companies in the UK, so it's not just random criticism.
Ah bob, always looking for problems to find solutions to lol... you know you can paint whatever symbol you want on them right? Heck you can JUST spray paint them if you need to
Bob kinda nailed what I've been feeling. I purchased to support the dakka team, and get some Karists. I love that it is hips, and I'm going in for the models I want. (Doing a trade with Ritides.) I went in for a pledge of 90. I LOVE YOUR TERRAIN ADDITIONS. I would join in a contest themed around using MEdge terrain sprue to build the "best or coolest," building for sure. You could even use a contest like that to giveaway some product, have it across forums, etc. Of course you'd have to moderate it but, it would bring attention to your product.
That being said... I'm not tired of 40k. There isn't a reason or even a community for me to play this game in, as my local meta will never play this sadly once it releases.
You have some great benefits and gems to focus on. I'm not trying to belittle, be an arse, or condescending but, maybe just a tad bit less of "tired of 40k?" and more of "check out our awesome world that we love, and hope you will too."
It reminds me of the Oxyclean commercials. "Tired of tough stains and grease? THEN YOU NEED OXYCLEAN."
Just saying. Focus on your beautiful world, your fluff, the terrain possibilities, product pitch and your fine plastic.
You have been doing a lot of good though. I have nothing but praise for your move with the 90$ sweet spot. I was only pledging that high because Ritides came to me with an offer for a trade. I was still lenient and held off from pledging until the Hunter and your terrain was added. Those two additions saved this KS for me, and I pledged.
MajorTom11 wrote: Ah bob, always looking for problems to find solutions to lol... you know you can paint whatever symbol you want on them right? Heck you can JUST spray paint them if you need to
I only talked about logos because someone else brought them up. I couldn't remember seeing any, so I thought I would take a positive step there. The last comment was more just an opinion than any kind of criticism or critique. I'm kind of insulted you think I'm ever going to paint my minis. It's like you don't know me at all.
Anyway, more on the Kickstarter strategy. Obviously I have my opinions, but I would really like to hear opinions from other people. (I'm the guy who saw the first announcement and thought Medge would break $1million.)
What do you think are the strengths of the game? What are the weaknesses? What can Spiral Arm do to play up their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses?
If you haven't pledged, why not? What would it take to make you reconsider?
....
I have heard the Epirians, already tooled for thousands of dollars, described as a millstone around Medge's neck. They are the Basilean Men At Arms for the Maelstrom's Edge universe. Even knowing about the Sunken Costs Fallacy, SAS are not going to scrap a sprue that cost a significant chunk of their initial capital. Does anyone have any ideas for how to downplay these minis to emphasize the Hunters and Sacrecrows? Is there a way to make them into a competitive kit to purchase?
SAS's great strength is their plastic tooling. Perhaps it's not too late to salvage the Contractors with a reworked sprue? Maybe there can be a stretch goal for a little WGF-style arm sprue with better proportioned arms and a helmeted head? Just a tiny sprue with two pairs of customer-friendly arms and twp heads, thrown into the box in sufficient numbers, could increase utility of the kit. Call it the elite contractor upgrade sprue and kill two birds with one albatross.
The setting is also a big mystery. Most people seem to find it depressing instead of exciting. However, the makers are holding back a lot of info, and have the power to create global campaigns that evolve the universe through customer interaction, so surely this weakness is only temporary.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Does anyone have any ideas for how to downplay these minis to emphasize the Hunters and Sacrecrows? Is there a way to make them into a competitive kit to purchase?
Actually, a lot of it might just be the presentation. Whoever painted these miniatures is clearly a pro, beautiful work, some of the best I've seen in a kickstarter... However, they apparently suck balls at assembling models in realistic poses. Case in point: the hunter robot. Definitely a cool model, but his feet look so ridiculous in that pose. it reminds me of how a Lego man looks when he is put in a walk pose.
For reference, this is what feet should do when the robot has an open stance:
Spoiler:
You will notice the front foot has rotated independently of the leg, so that it remains flush with the ground (not the leg). The hunter robot's feet would only be flush with the ground if he were standing inside a giant hamster ball. Maybe that's a limitation of the model, perhaps the feet are fused to the leg and can't be rotated. If so, then the modeler should have worked within those limitations and put him in a more neutral pose (as in the artwork). The wide action-stance just draws attention to the fact that his feet don't bend realistically, and makes him look goofy.
With the Epirians, it's hard to say how much is the kit, and how much is just awkward posing. I recall the Sanguinary Guard were amazing kits, but if they weren't posed right they were also very easy to get wrong, and looked like puppets.
The Karist appear to have good arms (and the shoulder pad is separate ala space marines). It would be nice to see what the Epirians look like converted with Karist arms, and maybe the neck cut a little shorter.
When SAS presented the terrain sprue, they gave it to the modelers and let them go wild, and the results are amazing. It's a shame they didn't do that with the miniatures. It would be nice to be looking at the possibilities of the models, but instead I feel like we're being shown the limitations.
Actually, a lot of it might just be the presentation. Whoever painted these miniatures is clearly a pro, beautiful work, some of the best I've seen in a kickstarter... However, they apparently suck balls at assembling models in realistic poses. Case in point: the hunter robot. Definitely a cool model, but his feet look so ridiculous in that pose. it reminds me of how a Lego man looks when he is put in a walk pose.
For reference, this is what feet should do when the robot has an open stance:
Spoiler:
You will notice the front foot has rotated independently of the leg, so that it remains flush with the ground (not the leg). The hunter robot's feet would only be flush with the ground if he were standing inside a giant hamster ball. Maybe that's a limitation of the model, perhaps the feet are fused to the leg and can't be rotated. If so, then the modeler should have worked within those limitations and put him in a more neutral pose (as in the artwork). The wide action-stance just draws attention to the fact that his feet don't bend realistically, and makes him look goofy.
With the Epirians, it's hard to say how much is the kit, and how much is just awkward posing. I recall the Sanguinary Guard were amazing kits, but if they weren't posed right they were also very easy to get wrong, and looked like puppets.
The Karist appear to have good arms (and the shoulder pad is separate ala space marines). It would be nice to see what the Epirians look like converted with Karist arms, and maybe the neck cut a little shorter.
When SAS presented the terrain sprue, they gave it to the modelers and let them go wild, and the results are amazing. It's a shame they didn't do that with the miniatures. It would be nice to be looking as the possibilities of the models, but instead I feel like we're being shown the limitations.
Well, I can't say for sure but:
Although many of the robots employed by the Foundation come in all manner of shapes – tracked, wheeled and even floating – for some roles, only a walker type will work. In the sphere of war, an Epirian staple is the Hunter class Warmech. A ubiquitous and iconic model for many Epirian franchises.
Designed to intimidate, the bipedal hunter class (GDV-1011 model) robots are robustly armored. Heavily armed as standard with a Maglock Chaingun and MIssile clusters, a base defended by even a few Hunters can hold its own against all but the most determined of attacks. Offensively Hunters are a prime vector for Epirian Battlefield control.
The model stands 48mm tall and has five different gun options. We'll be covering the rules in greater detail later this week along with detailed sprue pictures. The hunter is built from three different sprues and has a great amount of poseability featuring:
Ball joints on the hips
180 degree joints on the feet
Partial ball joints on the shoulders (easily extended)
80 degree joints at the elbows
A rotatable hand
2 alternate rocket pods
A Flakk Cannon, Dual Suppressor Machine Gun and Maglock Chaingun option, with dual wielding possible for all but the Maglock Chaingun.
I think it has the same possibilities as the contemptor by the look of it. A lot of people posed contemptors horribly statically, barely any motion or character. I made it my mission to do a few that disproved it -
So usually it was stuff like this -
Or brave but not very well executed attempts at dynamism like this -
To stuff like this -
(Sorry for tooting my own horn but trying to make a point :S)
or this
Looking at that model, I can already see plenty of articulation and possibilities for some very nice posing. The only thing that doesn't lend itself to over the top dynamic posing is the static head, but that can be compensated for with correct weight/balance distribution considered while posing... things like which hip is higher when you are walking with your right foot forward... or how much or little your waist twists when firing a weapon, or how you brace when holding a heavy object in each hand. All the same tricks animators use to convince you a drawing has weight and mass.
In any case, will it be as poseable as say, a revoltech figure? Definitely not, it is still a big armored robot and making the arms stick straight out to the sides probably isn't gonna happen... but it puts the classic dread, and even the new admech automata to shame if you ask me for poseability, and I would argue is likely on par with a crisis suit by the look of it, but with much more solid legs. Only minorly less poseable than a contemptor due to the head and larger shoulders.
I dunno now having looked at it in that way, it is pretty unfair in my view to pick on them for the poseability, I mead look at the recent admech bots, they are tons more statically posed than even the current hunter pics! A little credit due to SAS for this one I think, though again, I am biased.
All that being said, it certainly would be great to see some 'posing demo' type shots of just glued up models, even silly poses, just to show the range of motion available. Also the other weapon systems, as apparently there are quite a few!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What do you think are the strengths of the game? What are the weaknesses? What can Spiral Arm do to play up their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses?
If you haven't pledged, why not? What would it take to make you reconsider?
I have not pledged because there are two things I want - female infantry and auxiliary units for same - and one is non-existent and the other has a flawed execution. I've posted before the kind of thing I'd like to see out of a female infantry kit, but at best I'm in for a two year wait for that. The drones I don't like because they are unrealistic in ways that they don't need to be. Giving the humanoid drones the option to be built with two hands and either handheld or vambrace-mounted weapons (like XCOM's MEC troopers) and redesigning the flying drones so they could fly would not interfere with the goal of making good looking robots, but it would make them look better to people who care about such things.
AlexHolker, I love your sketch and really think your clean style would be a boon to the campaign*, but in Epirian scale she would turn out less J-Law and more Rhea Perlman.
Which would actually be pretty awesome.
*Can you do a sketch of the Kaddar Nova that doesn't look like [I tried four times to end this sentence without hurting someone's feelings]?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: *Can you do a sketch of the Kaddar Nova that doesn't look like [I tried four times to end this sentence without hurting someone's feelings]?
MajorTom11 wrote: I dunno now having looked at it in that way, it is pretty unfair in my view to pick on them for the poseability
No one was picking on anyone for the poseability of the model. I was talking about the person who assembled it with its feet facing sideways. Much like your "brave but not well executed" example, it has a great paint job, but the pose doesn't really do the model any favours.
Looking at that model, I can already see plenty of articulation and possibilities for some very nice posing. The only thing that doesn't lend itself to over the top dynamic posing is the static head, but that can be compensated for with correct weight/balance distribution considered while posing... things like which hip is higher when you are walking with your right foot forward... or how much or little your waist twists when firing a weapon, or how you brace when holding a heavy object in each hand. All the same tricks animators use to convince you a drawing has weight and mass.
Exactly! Which just goes to show the amount of artistry involved in posing a figure well: giving it weight and momentum. Appropriate that you should mention animation, which literally comes from the latin word for life/soul. That is what figures need to have. If models are assembled without that level of attention to detail, then it is little wonder that people will roll up and say that something looks "off".
I read the short story The Shipyard, as well as the novel excerpt. I would like to share what I thought of it.
I can't really say much about the novel excerpt, so I won't. The story seems interesting enough, but the pacing of the paragraphs could use some more polishing. It felt kind of monotonous. The characters sound like real people, so they should be easy to read about.
The writing in The Shipyard was noticeably less clunky. I think practice, honest feedback (i.e., not from close friends), and varied reading to absorb different styles will really improve this author's wordsmithery in the next few years. There seems to be a bit more confidence in the writing style, although still room for more exploration of technique. I can add a bit to this later, if anyone is curious. Essentially, some exposure to Strunk and White, Stephen King, David J. Schow, Annie Proulx, and so on couldn't hurt. The prose was better than some I've read some fairly prolific tie-in fiction writers' earlier works.
The characterization was good, in that I could comfortably read about Alana and become engrossed in her interactions with her bots and her internal self-justification. I liked the emotional connection she had with the drones, the way she responded to the refugee camp and the way she dismissed any moral misgivings as they began in a very human manner. Exactly the kind of protagonist I want in a little short story; someone I can care about in broad strokes without so much backstory as to crowd out the action. The drones were also very endearing. The hint of Old Dan and Little Ann dynamic between the older bots was very welcome, and I would have liked to have seen this developed a bit more.
The world building was just the right amount for a story so short, although I feel it could have been paced better to avoid clumping up some of the more emotional spots. Not sure I like how the Gnolti (Gnick Gnolti?) as they are presented. The alien seemed kind of random, and his presence was brief and singular enough that it was more distracting than enlightening. His background would have fit in better outside of the middle of an action sequence, in my opinion. Anyway, I'd love to read about a variety of places and the people who live or work in them, but I guess I'll have to wait for the novels. Love the small nuggets we got about the actual shipyard, its production capacity and how it operates. It helps sell the Epirians as a multi-planetary industrial concern and not a bunch of rent-a-cops.
Finally, I want to remark on how this works as tie-in fiction. I find that successful tie-in fiction is a very different creature to successful science fiction. The goal is completely different, so the tools and metrics are completely different. This story helped flesh out a faction I previously knew little about by showing us a bit of the daily routine of an Epirian Contractor, including her concerns and duties. The story gave a hook for action, an attempt by the Broken (and Karists?) to destroy critical Epirian infrastructure followed by the cleansing of a sympathetic refugee camp. The writing built on the strength of the universe, such as it is in this infantile state, by using backstory and the separate factions to give the character some internal conflict, giving the world a feeling like a bigger sandbox. The story did not have to establish special rules or waste time delineating how their ftl is different, simply focusing on a small slice of life. It seems like good tie in fiction will play around in an established sandbox, poke around the edges, deepen the notable spots, and explore the emotional reasons someone might want to play there in the first place, and this story managed a good bit of that considering its brevity and shallow source material.
Hopefully the next story will expand more on the different factions, what motivates them and how the characters go about their business. I really don't have a solid grasp on what Karists actually believe or why they do what they do as individuals. The Broken must have a ton of great stories and internal conflicts to explore. Also, I would love to read some great action scenes that just might inspire some modelling.
I will chime in here because why not. I used to play 40k and I used to post here but I don't anymore. In this post I will talk about ME and 40k, starting with the rules because that's really the main thing imo.
Rules I can't wait to play ME. If the whole kickstarter was just a rulebook, I would still pay 90$ based on the sample rules, because I dig them hard. I thought I'd left wargaming behind me, but this system with its suppression mechanics, command points, skirmish scale and overall simplicity just WHISPERS TO MY SOUL. I have a feeling this is the system I'll still be using in 40 years when I'm retired and can play games all day with my poor grandkids. Why you're all arguing about "fluff" is just beyond me. Frankly it's like the ME rulebook is the second coming of christ and you're all complaining that he's got the wrong hairdo.
Things I love about the rules:
+suppression makes the game realistic and deals with the 40k problem of everything being dead bottom of T2
+reinforcements does this plus makes your small model count bigger, lets us have casualties without necessarily emptying the board
+squad leader facing turns me on
+suppression tokens will make the board look alive
+simple realistic assault
+objectives counting every turn means action from start to finish
+no superheavies, fliers or lords of war
+more things
Things I wonder about the rules:
+why not force casualties from the front?
+why aren't units chased off the board?
+will there be assault factions?
Models My first reaction was, who cares about the models everyone will just use GW dudes anyway. I looked at them and they didn't really strike me. But they are growing on me and now I can't wait to see the karist soldiers painted black and drybrushed steel. Overall I like the models so far - I like the drones and robots, the angels someone said look like nightmare psycho fish and I agree. However, the tempests and epirians don't really do it for me. I have some hopefully constructive observations and questions on the matter.
Epirians:
- They have no pouches, backpacks, tools, anything. if they're engineers, how about some voltmeters, wrenches, shovels, toolbags, pouches? I think it would really make them look more realistic and more like ordinary guys, just evoke so much more sympathy.
- They're really wide at the shoulder, more like superheroes than engineers. I feel like they would look awesome with empire flagellant arms - sinewy, malnourished, vietnam veteran like. This too would make us feel for them.
- With the cap they're taller than the karists. I guess I'm thinking of them as guardsmen/marines, are we not to do that? why do karists then have more mass? any comment there?
+ I like the chaps
Tempests:
- Their armour is just really trying so hard. I understand they're supposed to have a crusader type vibe but layered plate became obsolete hundreds of years ago. With the hard sci-fi theme why not make them more rounded and bullet-bouncy-offy?
- There's just a lot of breaks but no colour breaks. i don't know if that makes sense, maybe they'll look better painted different
- Why not use the same karist rank models with bigger guns like a devastator squad?
+ I like the backside
Universe Personally this doesn't matter at all to me. I can forge my own narrative and don't need ward, abnett, cruddace etc to write a backstory to my space battle or tell me where my space men are from. When people say the "fluff" for ME is "nothing special", I really don't understand how that can influence their opinion towards the tabletop wargame. Someone said it "wasn't NY Times bestseller level" - if you feel that way why not pretend your models are vampires and werewolves from twilight? : )
Honestly from what I heard so far the ME universe seems like it'll be a lot more interesting than 40k anyway. I am sick to death of super special super grim superhero space marines and hilariously stupid orks. With planets spending decades at the "edge" before possibly being destroyed or not, I'm excited to have the focus of the setting be tied to social change and disaster politics rather than pathetic lovecraftwank.
EDIT: just curious but if the karists believe the maelstrom is good, why don't they just hop right in?
Similarities to 40k This game reminds me of wh40k and I don't see why that is a problem. Let's be real here, we all play or played 40k and we all know it's getting messier and more expensive fast. If we can all start playing something better where tactics matter more than money then why not? So what if the ME universe had an AI war? Other than perhaps worrying about GW filing IP lawsuits why does this matter to you?
Because realism-wise it's a silly mechanic (the closest guy isn't automatically the guy who catches the bullets) and gameplay-wise it just bogs things down with individual model micromanagement to try to manipulate casualty removal.
Casualties from the front is one of the things I dislike the most about current 40k.
EDIT: just curious but if the karists believe the maelstrom is good, why don't they just hop right in?
Part of their belief is that you have to prepare yourself spiritually for Ascension, so just throwing yourself into the Maelstrom doesn't cut it.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: AlexHolker, I love your sketch and really think your clean style would be a boon to the campaign*, but in Epirian scale she would turn out less J-Law and more Rhea Perlman.
The sketch was meant as a deliberate rejection of aspects of the first round of models that I didn't like, hence the round cap, the smaller shoulder guards and the absence of "Epirian scale".
*Can you do a sketch of the Kaddar Nova that doesn't look like [I tried four times to end this sentence without hurting someone's feelings]?
Here's the rough version of the sketch. Is this the kind of thing you were looking for?
I hope you and your friends will give Spiral Arm Studios your input. I think you make a lot of very important points about pointless token moving that doesn't add any decision making to the game.
It's now been a while since we read and discussed the rules, but:
Is there anything in the basic rules that allow you to decide whether or not you shake off STs at the end of the turn?
...or that would disallow you from doing so?
IIRC, the answer is no.
Therefore, automatically removing ST's just means that the game mechanics give you too many ST's to begin with.
So, if that is correct then it exposes the real issue with the game:
not only is the ST economy inflated, it is not in service to tactical choice
The only roll it seems to play is being an obstacle; and yet this is apparently the central mechanical premise.
Contrast it to Bolt Action, where a pin marker makes you consider how to spend an order die very carefully.
It seems the only reason that the ST economy is inflated is to shoehorn the ST's into the Willpower vs ST "discipline" check - IE, the illusion of elegance. An unwieldy mechanic has been introduced that involves additional paperwork so that it fits into a template that it doesn't need to fit into.
In the goal to create a single unified "Versus Roll", some rules have become overcomplex to fit that unified mechanic. The ST system is a perfect example of that.
The only way the ST's fit into that is by having so many that the double Versus Roll mechanic "works". Bolt Action works on a bell curve of two dice, so a few pins can mean a huge difference. Conversely, Medge requires less/greater/double, so a handful of ST's can mean nothing, you need two handfuls for it to mean something.
Because realism-wise it's a silly mechanic (the closest guy isn't automatically the guy who catches the bullets) and gameplay-wise it just bogs things down with individual model micromanagement to try to manipulate casualty removal.
This is primarily why the reason that 180 in a non-individual model-activating skirmish wargame is poor design.
Is the game a 1:1 skirmish game? Then individual targeting. If it's not, then the unit is a "cloud" - the models are not stone statues, and are actively moving and doing stuff in their area of control. This 180 business implies that the models are indeed stone statues instead of the unit acting like a 20th century and later military unit. If the rules designers want to emulate outflanking, it should not be to shoehorn the models into a regiment-based mass-combat front/side/rear, but emulate it via abstraction - additional sources of incoming fire throughout the turn, etc. I hate to keep bringing up Bolt Action, but this is where BA excels. Due to your morale check in BA being a bell curve - and each source of fire on a unit providing one pin - the unit coming under fire from multiple sources will most likely go Down and be unable to activate. A unit that has been given an order (for example, from being given an order to activate, or having gone Down from failing a morale check) is far easier to assault in a close quarters firefight.
Is there anything in the basic rules that allow you to decide whether or not you shake off STs at the end of the turn?
...or that would disallow you from doing so?
IIRC, the answer is no.
Therefore, automatically removing ST's just means that the game mechanics give you too many ST's to begin with.
So, if that is correct then it exposes the real issue with the game:
not only is the ST economy inflated, it is not in service to tactical choice
The only roll it seems to play is being an obstacle; and yet this is apparently the central mechanical premise.
Contrast it to Bolt Action, where a pin marker makes you consider how to spend an order die very carefully.
It seems the only reason that the ST economy is inflated is to shoehorn the ST's into the Willpower vs ST "discipline" check - IE, the illusion of elegance. An unwieldy mechanic has been introduced that involves additional paperwork so that it fits into a template that it doesn't need to fit into.
In the goal to create a single unified "Versus Roll", some rules have become overcomplex to fit that unified mechanic. The ST system is a perfect example of that.
The only way the ST's fit into that is by having so many that the double Versus Roll mechanic "works". Bolt Action works on a bell curve of two dice, so a few pins can mean a huge difference. Conversely, Medge requires less/greater/double, so a handful of ST's can mean nothing, you need two handfuls for it to mean something.
(yakface here) First off, thanks as always for the feedback.
I'd start by saying this: I do not believe there is a holy grail of perfect game design, if there were then someone would have created the perfect game and everyone would agree that was it. In truth, every person finds certain elements more important than others in their games, and because of that, some players tend to gravitate towards the rulesets that best meet their particular desires.
IMHO, good game design is about more than a bunch of mechanics that each provide the widest array of results with the fewest amount of rolls possible. The actual process of trying to remember rules, the process of rolling dice, the process of moving models, etc, all matters, and all comes together to make a game as a total package good or bad for each individual player. So for example, I find the actual action of rolling six-sided dice to be enjoyable, much more enjoyable then say D8s, D10s and so on. Perhaps it comes from nostalgia from playing board games as a kid that used D6s, maybe it comes from enjoying playing craps in Vegas, or mabye its just the way the dice feel and roll in the hand...I really don't know, but the fact is that I would much rather deal with two separate sets of D6 rolls compared to a single D10 roll that provides roughly the same set of outcomes.
I know there will be a lot of people out there who read that, shake their head and feel like I've got it totally backwards. I totally understand their mentality and it is part of why I think it is great that there are so many different rulesets out there so that people can find the one that fits their needs/desires.
But along that same train of thought, it is important for me to have a game with as much of a unified rolling mechanic as is humanly possible. There is no question that such a thing was/is a primary goal for me. So once I recognized that as a goal it absolutely was about figuring out a way to implement that goal within the many other constrictions I had to face.
As you point out, there are many other ways you can implement a suppression system that, in isolation, would be simpler and require less individual suppression tokens to track (although do remember that we have different sized 1,3,5 & 10 STs to make it quite easy have that much suppression on a unit). Believe me, while creating the game I tried implementing many such systems. At one point, the entire ST system was a totally different type of roll using (surprise, surprise) a 2D6 roll. But a writing a game ultimately comes down to what areas you want to push the complexity into...having a more simple system of less suppression tokens meant that there was a separate type of roll in the game, which meant an added set of complexity there. Players had to either memorize how that separate type of roll was handled or had to consult a separate chart/rulebook to remember it if they forgot or were unfamiliar with the rules.
Are there times in MEdge where adding a single ST to a unit has no appreciable effect on if they were to take a discipline check immediately? Absolutely, but because the system isn't completely binary, there are lots of little shades of grey. Yeah, 1 ST added at a particular moment may not have any effect, but when the next enemy unit shoots at that some unit, that extra 1 ST may now make all the difference. So there is still always a reason to fire your last guy in a unit at the enemy, just looking to plink an extra 1 ST onto them, because you never know when that 1 ST will be the difference between a unit having no STs at all (and automatically passing their discipline checks) or having 1 ST on them (and at least needing to roll a 2+ to pass).
You clearly feel that having the complexity of different types of rolls is not a big deal and totally worth it, and I do understand and respect that perspective. Its just for me personally, I find the overall unified game design to be much more important and powerful than having a single elegant, yet fundamentally different mechanic existing within the rules. Its just a difference of opinion on what you find to be more pleasing about a game's rules.
---
Coming back to your particular question about whether a unit gets a choice to shake-off suppression or not, the answer is: kind of. Units as a baseline do automatically shake-off D3 STs at the end of their activation (not the end of the turn). However, if the unit fails their activation discipline check, then they automatically get to shake-off an additional D3 STs (so 2 D3). On top of that, depending on how many STs they have at the time and the proximity of the enemy to them, a unit that fails its activation discipline check usually has the option whether or not to pin themselves. A unit that ends its activation pinned gets to shake-off an additional D3 STs (bringing the total to 3 D3 in that case). On top of that, command models within 18" of a unit can use command points to remove STs from a unit before they take their activation discipline check.
But fundamentally, the way a unit reacts to suppression is the one area where I did not feel it was entirely appropriate to give the player too much tactical choice. This is, more or less, the morale construct of the rules that represents how the models themselves react to the battlefield situation, so it should be, IMHO, kind of out of the player's control at that particular point. However if you're just looking for a unit that passes its activation discipline check get rid of STs on its own, they can always elect to perform a 'dig-in' action, which means they'll pin themselves and then get to shake-off that additional D3 STs (so 2D3 STs total).
---
Is the game a 1:1 skirmish game? Then individual targeting. If it's not, then the unit is a "cloud" - the models are not stone statues, and are actively moving and doing stuff in their area of control. This 180 business implies that the models are indeed stone statues instead of the unit acting like a 20th century and later military unit. If the rules designers want to emulate outflanking, it should not be to shoehorn the models into a regiment-based mass-combat front/side/rear, but emulate it via abstraction - additional sources of incoming fire throughout the turn, etc. I hate to keep bringing up Bolt Action, but this is where BA excels. Due to your morale check in BA being a bell curve - and each source of fire on a unit providing one pin - the unit coming under fire from multiple sources will most likely go Down and be unable to activate. A unit that has been given an order (for example, from being given an order to activate, or having gone Down from failing a morale check) is far easier to assault in a close quarters firefight.
On this point, again from my perspective we'll just have to agree to disagree. I got a lot of inspiration from an older video game called Full Spectrum Warrior, which was originally a game made as a training tool to teach soldiers in the army about some of the basics of standard infantry tactics. The front/rear arcs for a unit are determined by its squad leader, representing the area he is ordering the unit to focus their attention on. That also is the direction that they will make every effort to take cover against. That does not mean for a second that the models in the unit don't count as being able to look around themselves or count as being exactly where they are on the table. In fact, a unit in MEdge is able to fire 360 degrees around themselves, its just if the target is entirely in their rear arc, then that firing is wild (needs 6s to hit), as the unit is reacting to enemy firing at them from a direction they are not focused on.
The idea of unit facing is absolutely an abstraction used to help represent that a unit does have to focus on a general area to cover and it is totally possible to get around the flank of that unit and fire at them from a direction that puts them in dire straights.
Almarine wrote: Things I wonder about the rules:
+why not force casualties from the front?
Its really a big decision on whether to have casualties to come from the direction of the shooting like 40k 6th/7th edition currently does or whether to allow the owning player (for the most part) to pick their casualties amongst the unit (which is how 40k 3rd-6th edition worked), as that decision will ultimately have a major impact on the way a variety of other mechanics in the game function.
To me, the basic abstraction of: 'imagine one model running over to take the spot (and special weapons and equipment) of another model in the unit that falls' is something that has always worked for me in my head and seemed 'right' since I first encountered it back in 3rd edition 40k. It doesn't make sense to me that you always automatically lose your squad's special weapon because the enemy is firing from the side where that special weapon guy is located. In the movies, most times another guy in the unit runs over and picks up that weapon, and if your mind can wrap around that happening, then it makes sense that you're pulling the guy off that is 'running over' as the casualty and leaving the other guy.
Sure you can build in mechanics like 40k's current 'look out sir' to allow for directional casualties while still allowing specialty models to survive, but I just don't see the real need...if you already have a mechanic in place to reward players for outflanking (as MEdge does), then you don't need to bother with all the crazy complexity involved with rolling individual cover saves, etc, that the current edition of 40k bothers with.
Besides, once you remove that mechanic, players don't have to worry specifically about where models are within the unit, which is another thing that has always annoyed me when I have to pay attention to. In MEdge, range is always measured (for the entire unit) from the closest point of the closest model's base, even if that model is out of line of sight...nice and simple and always the same. Line of sight is always only checked from the squad leader (again, nice easy and simple). So the only real reasons you need to worry about the individual placement of the models within the unit besides the squad leader are:
• To keep the unit within coherency (within 3" of the squad leader).
• To keep half of them in/out of cover in order to keep the unit in/out of cover.
• To keep the unit bunched up or not. Being bunched up naturally makes them vulnerable to blasts, but unsurprisingly makes it easier to fit more models behind/in smaller pieces of cover.
• To keep the squad in general within range of something (again, always measured from the closest model to the thing you're measuring to).
In my playtesting I found this to feel like enough reasons that the individual models don't feel completely unnecessary to the game, while at the same time not making their presence a burden to resolving squad-based gameplay.
+why aren't units chased off the board?
Having units that leave the edge of the table just being gone is a strange abstraction based on that arbitrary edge of the table. In reality, whether a unit was 10 or 20 feet further away from the battle wouldn't suddenly change how they feel about participating in the battle. If an objective happens to be located near a table edge, then why should that suddenly make it more risky for one side to try to defend it (because any retreat move they have to make will end up taking them off the table)?
To me, having units have to flee a certain distance away from the enemy is a much better mechanic because it doesn't rely on that arbitrary line in the sand (the board edge). Instead, the rules really reward units that are forced to retreat to get into cover, so it ultimately plays out the way you'd expect in most cases (the retreating units will try to get to a piece of cover as long as it isn't within 12" of an enemy). On top of that, you are always allowed to destroy a unit in the end phase of any turn if they are too suppressed, for example, thereby allowing you to potentially bring them back as a reinforcement. This represents essentially the same concept (units fleeing off the table), but again is not explicitly bound to that arbitrary table edge limitation.
+will there be assault factions?
I cannot say for certain what the future holds, but none of the factions we have planned so far are what you would consider an assault-based faction (something like most people imagine Tyranids should play, despite the fact that they've actually been pretty darn shooty for quite some time).
The core rules are based around suppression, so to have a pure assault-based army would definitely be a bit of a challenge, although there are plenty of ways I can imagine off the top of my head to still make it fun, so maybe someday if things go great, who knows?
EDIT: just curious but if the karists believe the maelstrom is good, why don't they just hop right in?
That is a great question! The Karists believe that the Maelstrom is a way for humanity as a whole to ascend to its rightful place and that it is their duty to spread that word to the rest of the galaxy because only people that prepare their minds and bodies will be judged worthy by the Maelstrom and successfully ascend. But beyond that, every single Karist is an individual who has their own level of belief and faith in the cause. It is a whole lot easier to get people to join your cause if your beliefs include the possibility of still ascending even when you die outside of the Maelstrom. Therefore most Karists believe when the Maelstrom takes your remains, if you were committed and prepared when you died outside the Maelstrom, then you still have a good chance of ascension.
So spreading the good word that humanity should not destroy itself in the face of the Maelstrom but instead accept it and embrace its judgement is the primary driving motivator of the Karists, not just to get themselves into the Maelstrom as quickly as possible.
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: On this point, again from my perspective we'll just have to agree to disagree. I got a lot of inspiration from an older video game called Full Spectrum Warrior, which was originally a game made as a training tool to teach soldiers in the army about some of the basics of standard infantry tactics. The front/rear arcs for a unit are determined by its squad leader, representing the area he is ordering the unit to focus their attention on. That also is the direction that they will make every effort to take cover against. That does not mean for a second that the models in the unit don't count as being able to look around themselves or count as being exactly where they are on the table. In fact, a unit in MEdge is able to fire 360 degrees around themselves, its just if the target is entirely in their rear arc, then that firing is wild (needs 6s to hit), as the unit is reacting to enemy firing at them from a direction they are not focused on.The idea of unit facing is absolutely an abstraction used to help represent that a unit does have to focus on a general area to cover and it is totally possible to get around the flank of that unit and fire at them from a direction that puts them in dire straights.
Are you saying that you feel this mechanic is realistic to actual warfare? or that you based it on a video game you liked?
DrNo172000 wrote: Are you saying that you feel this mechanic is realistic to actual warfare? or that you based it on a video game you liked?
Whoops, sorry about that. I did kind of throw that reference in without finishing why it was relevant. Let me expand a bit:
Full Spectrum Warrior specifically chose to use abstraction not usually found in most video games to force the people playing (originally army soldiers) to learn the basic strategies of squad combat. The game gives you control of at least two fire teams. While you can directly control individual models within the unit, if you're firing at an enemy that is taking cover from the front, you can never ever kill those enemies. While this is obviously not realistic, it forced you to use one fire team to 'pin' that unit behind the cover while you send your second fire team around the flank to kill them.
Since playing that game I've often wondered: Since miniature wargames are already stuck using a bunch of abstractions (just by the nature of moving models around a table, rolling dice to represent shooting, etc.), I wondered why they don't just make things more abstract in certain areas to really enforce some of these basic squad tactics.
When originally designing MEdge, at first I tried to take this concept to the extreme and make it essentially impossible to kill a unit from the front and absolutely force another unit to flank them to kill them, but I did find that it was a bit too punishing for most players to deal with (people like to kill stuff, naturally). Over time and testing, I believe we've found a happy medium that still rewards the basic concepts of suppressing a unit and outflanking them, while at the same time not being completely a slave to it at the cost of having something that is mainly unfun to play.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: AlexHolker, I love your sketch and really think your clean style would be a boon to the campaign*, but in Epirian scale she would turn out less J-Law and more Rhea Perlman.
The sketch was meant as a deliberate rejection of aspects of the first round of models that I didn't like, hence the round cap, the smaller shoulder guards and the absence of "Epirian scale".
I did notice that. But I think we can both agree that the concept art was drawn to a different 'scale' than the miniatures.
*Can you do a sketch of the Kaddar Nova that doesn't look like [I tried four times to end this sentence without hurting someone's feelings]?
Here's the rough version of the sketch. Is this the kind of thing you were looking for?
I like it. The neutral pose allows me to take in the Nova's overall aesthetic, and I like it. The breast plate and cowl/headdress are ostentatiously regal. He reminds me of the Ori space-pope from Stargate. I also notice the gauntlet and wires more when I'm not distracted by the picture, which makes me interested in the posing and modelling possibilities for the eventual minis. Great work. Thanks for making it!
That is a great question! The Karists believe that the Maelstrom is a way for humanity as a whole to ascend to its rightful place and that it is their duty to spread that word to the rest of the galaxy because only people that prepare their minds and bodies will be judged worthy by the Maelstrom and successfully ascend. But beyond that, every single Karist is an individual who has their own level of belief and faith in the cause. It is a whole lot easier to get people to join your cause if your beliefs include the possibility of still ascending even when you die outside of the Maelstrom. Therefore most Karists believe when the Maelstrom takes your remains, if you were committed and prepared when you died outside the Maelstrom, then you still have a good chance of ascension.
So spreading the good word that humanity should not destroy itself in the face of the Maelstrom but instead accept it and embrace its judgement is the primary driving motivator of the Karists, not just to get themselves into the Maelstrom as quickly as possible.
OK but real life evangelists convert people out of concern for their souls. If you kill someone they don't really have time to prepare their minds and bodies as it were. It just sounds like there must be something more to it or why would the karists go out of their way with this? Are we supposed to question their motives?
edit: and, when do we get to see the kaddar nova model?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I did notice that. But I think we can both agree that the concept art was drawn to a different 'scale' than the miniatures.
Yes, we can. But the Epirian scale needs to go anyway or else the overly broad shoulders (an exaggeration of a masculine trait) are going to ruin things.
I like it. The neutral pose allows me to take in the Nova's overall aesthetic, and I like it. The breast plate and cowl/headdress are ostentatiously regal. He reminds me of the Ori space-pope from Stargate. I also notice the gauntlet and wires more when I'm not distracted by the picture, which makes me interested in the posing and modelling possibilities for the eventual minis. Great work. Thanks for making it!
You're welcome. I was wondering while I was drawing it whether the Nova's facial injuries - presumably due to exposure to the reactor on his back - were part of the problem you had with the official picture. But I'm glad you found my sketch helpful either way.
That is a great question! The Karists believe that the Maelstrom is a way for humanity as a whole to ascend to its rightful place and that it is their duty to spread that word to the rest of the galaxy because only people that prepare their minds and bodies will be judged worthy by the Maelstrom and successfully ascend. But beyond that, every single Karist is an individual who has their own level of belief and faith in the cause. It is a whole lot easier to get people to join your cause if your beliefs include the possibility of still ascending even when you die outside of the Maelstrom. Therefore most Karists believe when the Maelstrom takes your remains, if you were committed and prepared when you died outside the Maelstrom, then you still have a good chance of ascension.
So spreading the good word that humanity should not destroy itself in the face of the Maelstrom but instead accept it and embrace its judgement is the primary driving motivator of the Karists, not just to get themselves into the Maelstrom as quickly as possible.
OK but real life evangelists convert people out of concern for their souls. If you kill someone they don't really have time to prepare their minds and bodies as it were. It just sounds like there must be something more to it or why would the karists go out of their way with this? Are we supposed to question their motives?
I'm pretty sure the answer to question "Are they right about what the Maelstrom is?" is "If we told you the answer, that would ruin the surprise."
But why would you ever need to question someone's religious motivations? You can just flat out conclude that not everyone in a religious organization believes what they're doing; and that some of the people in the organization believe what they're doing is right without question.
"Real life evangelists convert people out of concern for their souls." I think you're forgetting that the different people in a religious community do different things, and have different approaches to accomplishing those goals.
Imagine that you and your friends have either military or paramilitary experience. Maybe even just grew up hunting so you know how to use rifles and such. Now imagine that you find out about a bunch of misguided people that are going to go blow up an important religious site. It doesn't sound like they're willing to listen to reason, and they sound pretty dead set on blowing the thing up. At a certain point, it's realistic to get your friends together, and go defend that religious site from the people that are trying to destroy it.
Sure, you're probably going to try to talk the other side out of violence, if you have a chance. But how likely is that to happen?
Then you can consider the person who decides that they don't want to wait until they die to go to heaven, and convinces a bunch of other people to help them go accelerate the process. Because people who believe in something can still be selfish and imperfect, and want something for themselves more than for the other people that don't deserve it.
Then you get to start asking "Does the evangelist believe in what they're saying, or just enjoy the feeling of convincing other people to follow and support them?" Or "Why do people come together in groups with other people who share their same beliefs? Is there some sort of community bonding and reinforcement going on?"
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: But along that same train of thought, it is important for me to have a game with as much of a unified rolling mechanic as is humanly possible. There is no question that such a thing was/is a primary goal for me. So once I recognized that as a goal it absolutely was about figuring out a way to implement that goal within the many other constrictions I had to face.
As you point out, there are many other ways you can implement a suppression system that, in isolation, would be simpler and require less individual suppression tokens to track (although do remember that we have different sized 1,3,5 & 10 STs to make it quite easy have that much suppression on a unit). Believe me, while creating the game I tried implementing many such systems. At one point, the entire ST system was a totally different type of roll using (surprise, surprise) a 2D6 roll. But a writing a game ultimately comes down to what areas you want to push the complexity into...having a more simple system of less suppression tokens meant that there was a separate type of roll in the game, which meant an added set of complexity there. Players had to either memorize how that separate type of roll was handled or had to consult a separate chart/rulebook to remember it if they forgot or were unfamiliar with the rules.
I understand your desire with a Unified Mechanic is to reduce complexity; however, the rules themselves do not reflect the reduction in complexity:
* Units as a baseline do automatically shake-off D3 STs at the end of their activation (not the end of the turn).
* However, if the unit fails their activation discipline check, then they automatically get to shake-off an additional D3 STs (so 2 D3).
* On top of that, depending on how many STs they have at the time and the proximity of the enemy to them, a unit that fails its activation discipline check usually has the option whether or not to pin themselves.
* A unit that ends its activation pinned gets to shake-off an additional D3 STs (bringing the total to 3 D3 in that case). On top of that, command models within 18" of a unit can use command points to remove STs from a unit before they take their activation discipline check.
Players now have to memorize these additional rules on top of the Unified Mechanic.
But, as you've stated:
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: I find the overall unified game design to be much more important and powerful than having a single elegant, yet fundamentally different mechanic existing within the rules. Its just a difference of opinion on what you find to be more pleasing about a game's rules.
Your overriding rules concern is that a unified mechanic is more important than rules elegance.
The primary design decision was a unified mechanic, and the rest of the system appears to have been shoehorned into the mechanic at the expense of elegance.
The ST system is the primary offender of this - the only reason there are so many ST's in play is because they _must_ fit into the Versus roll - less than, equal to, greater than, double. Because of that design decision, it is now necessary to pack on ST's at a high rate (and therefore have ST's in denominations of 1, 3, 5, 10), and removed many of them throughout a unit's turn (necessitating the several rules listed above in regards to removing them)
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: I got a lot of inspiration from an older video game called Full Spectrum Warrior, which was originally a game made as a training tool to teach soldiers in the army about some of the basics of standard infantry tactics. The front/rear arcs for a unit are determined by its squad leader, representing the area he is ordering the unit to focus their attention on. That also is the direction that they will make every effort to take cover against. That does not mean for a second that the models in the unit don't count as being able to look around themselves or count as being exactly where they are on the table. In fact, a unit in MEdge is able to fire 360 degrees around themselves, its just if the target is entirely in their rear arc, then that firing is wild (needs 6s to hit), as the unit is reacting to enemy firing at them from a direction they are not focused on.
That's not how modern unit tactics works. Flanking a modern military unit means attacking them from a direction that they do not have cover. All members of a modern squad are able to competently fight from any direction, due to training. As you said, the front is the direction that they will make effort to take cover against because that is the direction they are moving towards and experiencing fire from. Changing unit facing and formation can be accomplished in heartbeat.
I asked my buddy who has 6 years of combat:
"in reality we do have a frontage based on the formation in use, but that formation can be rapidly changed to a situation. To include a frontage in a mini game is beyond micro management.
Holy feth when we took rounds in Fallujah it was at the rear of the squad behind the squad leader.
Our reaction was swift and not wild, because we we're in a tac column and it maximizes firepower to the flank which is where we took fire from. Rear right flank.
In a mini game I would hope that complex squad maneuvers are abstracted."
This is why I believe enforcing a 180 degree fixed arc forces the unit/models to effectively act as stone statues.
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: The idea of unit facing is absolutely an abstraction used to help represent that a unit does have to focus on a general area to cover and it is totally possible to get around the flank of that unit and fire at them from a direction that puts them in dire straights.
Which could simply be accomplished by making cover incredibly effective at stopping rounds (such as in real life) whereas a unit that is actually "flanked" is merely fired at from a direction they have no cover (read: attacking an enemy formation where it would be most disadvantageous for them.) This is the basic concept of fire elements and maneuver elements.
This leads into the next aspect of Medge I disagree with - close quarters assaulting is not nearly deadly enough.
Medge Rules PDF wrote:This makes charging a risky, but valuable tool for pushing enemy units off objectives, out of cover, etc.
In modern combat, most casualties occur in close combat. Squad fire support elements (light machine guns and SAWs) suppress an enemy until another unit can properly assault and slay bodies in very, very short range - at a range where there's no effective cover.
This is the very vital point where Medge could connect these two aspects:
Instead of having an awkward 180 degree frontal arc, continue with the unit abstraction. Make a proponderance of ST's somehow make you easier to be slaughtered in close quarters.
Now you have the simulation of Full Spectrum Warrior that you desire - One fire element pours ST's onto a target unit, the second one maneuvers and initiates a close quarters assault.
This is because, in real combat, being pinned means you can't accurately engage the enemy maneuvering on you.
This also assumes that, again, models are not stone statues, their cloud positioning is not absolute, and you have disregarded the fists-and-swords style fantasy close combat of 40k and adopted the close-quarters firefight of most other non-fantasy wargames (assuming the "hard sci fi" aspect still applies)
Automatically Appended Next Post: It is interested to see new ways that different game systems invent to tackle the question of morale mechanics. Some systems attempt to emulate real world pinning and reactions of infantry, others, like 40k or Warmachine, do no such thing.
I do like that the concept of it in Medge it is a matter of accumulating suppression tokens for various detrimental effects, creating compulsory actions that could involve friendly fire and retreating.
Bolt Action handles it in a different way, as independently sourced fire will cause pinning, forcing tactical decisions on when to assign order dice to activate a unit, as successful activation will reduce pinning. Failing to activate due to pinning will force the units Down, etc.
However, my absolute favorite personal morale system was one that excised it completely.
Starship Troopers, by Andy Chambers, dealt with the question morale by leaving it entirely up to the player. The system was so refined that it absolutely punished your mistakes. The morale of your models was handled entirely by you. I have never experienced fear in a game until I was playing SST, and that fear translated into protecting your models by voluntarily retreating them, or by you making mistakes that would doom them. That was a beautifully elegant way to handle morale.
Most small special case rules are memorized just fine through play.
They'll sometimes be missed, but it's not a deal breaker, and usually the opponent reminds you. Break tests or similar checks, for example, in many games are a special case that you have to look for.
Whether a game has morale effects or not is not an issue of better or worse. SST didn't have a morale system because it was the type of game that didn't need one. Maelstrom's Edge has a suppression system because the designer thought it needed one.
A see this long back and forth between you two right now more as a matter of preference, rather than superiority of systems, or adherence to realism.
That's not how modern unit tactics works. Flanking a modern military unit means attacking them from a direction that they do not have cover. All members of a modern squad are able to competently fight from any direction, due to training. As you said, the front is the direction that they will make effort to take cover against because that is the direction they are moving towards and experiencing fire from. Changing unit facing and formation can be accomplished in heartbeat.
I asked my buddy who has 6 years of combat:
"in reality we do have a frontage based on the formation in use, but that formation can be rapidly changed to a situation. To include a frontage in a mini game is beyond micro management.
Holy feth when we took rounds in Fallujah it was at the rear of the squad behind the squad leader.
Our reaction was swift and not wild, because we we're in a tac column and it maximizes firepower to the flank which is where we took fire from. Rear right flank.
In a mini game I would hope that complex squad maneuvers are abstracted."
This is why I believe enforcing a 180 degree fixed arc forces the unit/models to effectively act as stone statues.
One quick correction there JudgeDoug, when I said that maneuvering on a unit where they did not have cover is what modern flanking is, I meant it more as a simplification. Enveloping a unit is more or less about fixing a unit in place and then attacking them with a maneuver element in a position that is more advantageous for you. That's essentially what that video game was trying to teach. The take away should be the necessity of fixing a unit in place not that a unit has an assigned sector of fire that somehow makes them unaware of their surroundings and makes them upon changing that sector of fire shoot wildly. Only terribly trained units like Iraqi Army would have that problem.
However, my absolute favorite personal morale system was one that excised it completely.
Starship Troopers, by Andy Chambers, dealt with the question morale by leaving it entirely up to the player. The system was so refined that it absolutely punished your mistakes. The morale of your models was handled entirely by you. I have never experienced fear in a game until I was playing SST, and that fear translated into protecting your models by voluntarily retreating them, or by you making mistakes that would doom them. That was a beautifully elegant way to handle morale.
Interestingly, having an ongoing campaign tends to produce similar effects. That is, if your casualties in a game have an impact beyond the scope of the present game, there is an incentive to preserve your units. That said, stimulating emotional attachment to models/units is also a great way to encourage voluntary 'morale', and tracking the development/progress of a model/unit/character is helpful towards engendering that emotional investment. Pair that with a reasonably brutal/deadly system and you get more emotional reactions during gameplay.
It depends on what kind of gameplay experience you are looking to produce though. Compulsory morale certainly has a place in many game systems, even ones where morale is for the most part voluntary. I personally like morale to be a thing that is specifically done to a model/unit/player, as opposed to a situation that occurs when various factors converge. The wizard casts a spell, the GM decides the players are outgunned/overwhelmed, etc.
Vertrucio wrote: Most small special case rules are memorized just fine through play.
Which is precisely my point that when one decides on a Unified Mechanic, while it may seem simple, you often have to break elegance in order for all cases to be channeled through it.
Vertrucio wrote: Whether a game has morale effects or not is not an issue of better or worse. SST didn't have a morale system because it was the type of game that didn't need one. Maelstrom's Edge has a suppression system because the designer thought it needed one.
My point was not to say SST was superior, merely that pointing out how elegance can work. By designing the system to be brutal to mistakes (less luck involved, more skill), there was no need for a morale system. A system can be designed to be forgiving of mitakes (less skill involved) but then will need more of an element of luck to create tactical uncertainty. Certainly one style is not superior than the other, as it depends on what the objective of the rules engine is.
Vertrucio wrote: A see this long back and forth between you two right now more as a matter of preference, rather than superiority of systems, or adherence to realism.
I disagree.
This discussion is one about good and bad game design, not merely "it's just about personal taste". That would be a different topic. It is possible to like poorly designed games; it is also possible to dislike games that are well designed. That is a matter of taste.
What I see is a system that is hailed as a "next gen, fluid" system (buzzwords) but appears to have been designed as merely to be "better than 40k".
However, countless other systems have been designed already that are "better than 40k", and have avoiding the pitfalls that Medge appears to be stepping into.
Medge may be "40k + 1" but a thorough examination of other miniatures games rules (of which there are many, excellent rulesets by many small publishers) would reveal that there are already other systems written that do what Medge wants to do with less paperwork and complications.
Being "40k + 1" may make it ahead of 40k, but when other systems are "40k + 2" or greater, it puts it generations behind.
I think, at it's core, Medge has some good intentions and the seed of good design. However, I think there are some bad design choices that have been made beyond the core "seed".
Let me clarify:
Flanking in the sense I am talking about is just using one element to maneuver into close combat while another element pins the target. None of that requires facing. All you need to have flanking in a game is a mechanic where one element keeps the target from moving while another element moves in. The most basic mechanic would be cover. Because as a mechanic, cover protects you from incoming fire. So you have a tough choice under fire between moving out of that protection or being pinned down - and of course moving out of protection makes you vulnerable to death. But cover is obviously not the only mechanic that can allow flanking - suppression is another one - suppressing a unit that does not have cover. A pinned unit in the open is going to get molested by HE - Heavy molesting.
Thing is, MEdge does not use its suppression mechanic to add flanking into the game.
It has another mechanic, squad facing - that creates flanks: attacking a unit from behind its 180 degree facing is flanking in MEdge. So it's a basic misunderstanding of what flanking is.
In MEdge, you could "flank" a unit that you have not suppressed, pinned, forced into cover, etc, etc.
The unit facing thing could be taken out. What would be lost? (not a rhetorical question)
Essentially in real life you have two options to unpin yourself. Move or return a heavier volume of fire. Because pinning is about accomplishing two things: Fixing a enemy in place and reducing their ability to return fire.
Medge actually is the opposite; you are rewarded by becoming more pinned: "Units as a baseline do automatically shake-off D3 STs at the end of their activation (not the end of the turn). However, if the unit fails their activation discipline check, then they automatically get to shake-off an additional D3 STs (so 2 D3). On top of that, depending on how many STs they have at the time and the proximity of the enemy to them, a unit that fails its activation discipline check usually has the option whether or not to pin themselves. A unit that ends its activation pinned gets to shake-off an additional D3 STs (bringing the total to 3 D3 in that case)."
So instead of making a gameplay decision, you just wait for the steps of the game to go on.
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DrNo172000 wrote: That's essentially what that video game was trying to teach. The take away should be the necessity of fixing a unit in place not that a unit has an assigned sector of fire that somehow makes them unaware of their surroundings and makes them upon changing that sector of fire shoot wildly.
I agree. The importance of having Fire element pinning while Maneuver element outflanks (attacking an enemy formation where it would be most disadvantageous for them); NOT that the Target unit has an artificial 180 degree arc.
In MEdge, firing from an enemy's rear arc does exactly two things:
1) It reduces their cover value by 1 (they remove one less hit than normal).
2) If the unit has front/rear Armor Value (only big models tend to have that), you user their rear AV.
#1 is necessary concept to employ IMHO because of the abstraction of area terrain needed for in miniature games. But be aware that there is a rule in place where if the unit is taking cover behind actual obstacles (solid-type terrain) then you can completely deny them cover by getting to a position where you can completely see the models (the actual rule is obviously more precise).
So a unit in area terrain that is being fired at from behind still gets the benefit of being a fleeting target (doubling their EVS characteristic when fired on) and still will get to ignore 1 hit (assuming it is standard terrain with a cover value of 2 to start with).
Being pinned has one positive element:
1) The unit has +1 added to its cover value, or counts as being in area terrain with a cover value of 1 if not in any actual cover.
But it has two negative elements for being pinned as well:
1) It can only fire at the closest enemy unit (even if that unit is behind it and therefore it is wild fire).
2) The result needed for the unit to pass a defensive fire discipline check is one worse than normal (so if it normally needed a 3+, it is raised to a 4+ while pinned).
So when you combine those two things you see:
You do get a bonus for getting behind a unit, but it is not absolutely critical. Also, pinning a unit does give them protection, but leaves them vulnerable to being attacked at short range or in a close quarters firefight (as their chance of firing defensively well is lessened).
And one final piece to the puzzle is that if a unit is performing a 'Hold & Fire' action (where it doesn't move at all), then it can either perform Focused Fire (where its chances to hit are improved) or Suppression Fire. The latter provides a little extra suppression, but the real interesting thing is that the unit being fired at has to take a discipline check after the round of shooting and if it fails, it has to turn to face the firing the unit. This can be used by canny players to get a unit to focus on them (represented by turning to face them) to allow another unit to more easily attack them from their rear arc.
Ultimately if you see MEdge's rules as being deeply flawed or just 40k+1, that is certainly your right to do so. Could we have just tried to use another game system for our rules? Probably (licensing agreements aside), but I've always had a number of elements that I thought would be awesome, and while I have tremendous love and respect for a number of game systems (especially SST and Dust Warfare), they didn't accomplish the goals that I was looking for specifically, nor did I just want to copy another system outright, change the paintjob and call it mine.
I did my best to incorporate all the elements that I think would make a good hardcore squad-based miniature game on a small scale, and I do believe that once it is played and you see all the elements working together it doesn't really feel like 40K at all, but again that's just my personal opinion, which is obviously totally biased. I obviously tried my best and if you think my best sucks, while I certainly I wish I could have made something that speaks to you (and everyone), at the end of the day as someone creating something you just have to make something you think is fun and trust the feedback you get from people around you that you trust.
I certainly have been keeping an eye on Dakka and other forums for the last few years reading what people were looking for in a smaller squad-based ruleset (which people actually do talk about) and I tried to take to heart as much as I could. But utimately I don't think you can design a game completely using public feedback as there are just too many people who want too many different things that it soon becomes mired in the 'too many cooks' syndrome. You do have to trust your gut and hope your core decisions resonate well with most people that try it (and of course, have a public beta at the end for final tweaks and catching the really nasty little loopholes you can't spot being so close to it).
Vertrucio wrote: A see this long back and forth between you two right now more as a matter of preference, rather than superiority of systems, or adherence to realism.
I disagree.
This discussion is one about good and bad game design, not merely "it's just about personal taste". That would be a different topic. It is possible to like poorly designed games; it is also possible to dislike games that are well designed. That is a matter of taste.
Again, you are equating what is good or bad to you, as good or bad for everyone. The two are not the same.
It's also deceptively difficult to tell what is generally a bad game, or bad mechanic, until you get it on the table and start testing it as a whole. I've literally wasted years of development time on rules and rules sets that went nowhere once I started trying them out.
It's clear that to you, this one mechanic is such an offense that you're willing to hold a several page long argument on an internet forum, and delve into line by line quoting.
But so many others, it's something they'll just try, and if they don't like, they won't buy.
It's at this point where you should probably step back, not because I think you're entirely wrong, but I do think you've hit the point where you're in the stereotypical "internet argument" mode.
Moreover, the rules are set, and are releasing soon. And there were the product of a lot of behind the scenes playtesting too. One does not spend the $20K to $50K USD to make steel plastic injection molds just to release an untested rules set.
Vertrucio wrote: It's also deceptively difficult to tell what is generally a bad game, or bad mechanic, until you get it on the table and start testing it as a whole. I've literally wasted years of development time on rules and rules sets that went nowhere once I started trying them out.
Just want to say this is very true, almost 90% of the time. There are so many mechanics and rules that sound great in concept and on paper but until you actually play, it ends up being a completely different experience. If you were to isolate one rule/mechanic by itself possibly but usually it is affected by multiple rules that create a flow. Theory-crafting can get you so far, even basing experiences of a 'similar' mechanic can only go so far as theory-crafting because it doesn't take in account the whole set of rules together.
I've sat in and participated in dozens of play tests and even reskinned remakes where they've made slight alterations. The game designer feels like it is great, even has a lot of fun playing it but when it gets to a larger audience there is a bigger disparity. That is mostly because "good" and "bad" are subjective to the person and is effected by personal taste.
Vertrucio wrote: Moreover, the rules are set, and are releasing soon. And there were the product of a lot of behind the scenes playtesting too. One does not spend the $20K to $50K USD to make steel plastic injection molds just to release an untested rules set.
To be fair (I'm a devils advocate ^_^ ) there are quite a few KS that do just that. It isn't so much that it was untested, it was tested in a semi-controlled environment. It isn't necessarily a bad thing but issues don't tend to become discovered until it is released into a larger audience that has people who try to break the rules, seen and played by people who aren't necessarily the target market (assuming WH40K skirmish), etc. The best tests are to send to gamers, who aren't necessarily miniature wargamers and not give them any information; Can they play it just by reading the rules without any help? Did they have fun despite not being their main thing? What did they like or didn't like from it?
Too often companies and new game developers tend to spend a lot of testing with select test groups which provides slightly skewed or biased information. It isn't necessarily a bad thing per say as they tend to be the target group, but just saying just because rules are tested doesn't necessarily make them not flawed.
I'm a more of wait and try it person, not sure if I'll like the system or not. From what I have seen of the rules so far it isn't my cup of tea. I do like the Hunter bots and the terrain sprue, but other than that .. the main reason I'm backing is to support Dakka. I also tend to like to support new developments like this as opposed to simply looking for the latest Mantic/CMoN style KS to make money.
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: #1 is necessary concept to employ IMHO because of the abstraction of area terrain needed for in miniature games. But be aware that there is a rule in place where if the unit is taking cover behind actual obstacles (solid-type terrain) then you can completely deny them cover by getting to a position where you can completely see the models (the actual rule is obviously more precise).
I'm actually intrigued for you to expand upon this. Medge is a system where only the Leader's positioning matters - would it not make most sense, in keeping the idea of that Leader being the Absolute Point for measuring, facing, etc, that the terrain the Leader occupies will be what the unit has? In which case it's very easy to define types of cover when a single model is the representation of the unit.
That brings me around to another question. I don't understand the constants of cover in Medge? Can you expand on the design process for cover removing a set number of hits? I thought that was odd, that a 1-man unit and a 10-man unit would benefit exactly the same way (removing 2 hits) due to cover.
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: And one final piece to the puzzle is that if a unit is performing a 'Hold & Fire' action (where it doesn't move at all), then it can either perform Focused Fire (where its chances to hit are improved) or Suppression Fire. The latter provides a little extra suppression, but the real interesting thing is that the unit being fired at has to take a discipline check after the round of shooting and if it fails, it has to turn to face the firing the unit. This can be used by canny players to get a unit to focus on them (represented by turning to face them) to allow another unit to more easily attack them from their rear arc.
See, this is interesting to me. Suppression Fire exists to add more ST's to the ST-system and exists as a mechanic counterpoint to a mechanic that doesn't need to exist (unit facing). As stated, firing in a unit's rear are only does two things: 1) It reduces their cover value by 1 (they remove one less hit than normal), 2) If the unit has front/rear Armor Value (only big models tend to have that), you user their rear AV (mostly not applicable to infantry, the core of the game system). This entire mini-game of game mechanics would be rendered unnecessary, if, for instance, there was one type of normal shooting that did either damage OR suppression based on the unit being in cover or not. This would emphasize the Fire aspect of the Full Spectrum Warrior Fire and Maneuver system you are emulating, while simply making it very awful (read: easy to be killed) when engaged in close quarter combat while you are suppressed; that would be the Maneuver element.
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: Ultimately if you see MEdge's rules as being deeply flawed or just 40k+1, that is certainly your right to do so. Could we have just tried to use another game system for our rules? Probably (licensing agreements aside), but I've always had a number of elements that I thought would be awesome, and while I have tremendous love and respect for a number of game systems (especially SST and Dust Warfare), they didn't accomplish the goals that I was looking for specifically, nor did I just want to copy another system outright, change the paintjob and call it mine.
That accusation or argument has not been made. Medge is obviously unique - I don't believe it's core mechanic exists in any other game, to my knowledge, and bears a similarity to Rackham's AT-43 and Confrontation Age of the Ragnarok core dice mechanic, but again, only a passing resemblance. I do like it's core mechanic, just not some of the design implementations and sacrifices to elegance that have been made for the sake of unified mechanic.
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: I certainly have been keeping an eye on Dakka and other forums for the last few years reading what people were looking for in a smaller squad-based ruleset (which people actually do talk about) and I tried to take to heart as much as I could. But utimately I don't think you can design a game completely using public feedback as there are just too many people who want too many different things that it soon becomes mired in the 'too many cooks' syndrome.
Which roughly translates to "I made the game I like and sorry if you don't like it". Which is understandable, but I only began talking about the rules because the implication was that you guys were asking for people to read and respond about the rules. If every discussion of the rules will end in this fashion, then clearly every decision has already been made and the desire for feedback is at least marginally disingenuous.
Let me re-iterate. I think the core mechanic is a good idea. I was hoping the ruleset was not so far along is to be immutable. I still feel it's possible for a system to have both a unified mechanic and be elegant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vertrucio wrote: It's clear that to you, this one mechanic is such an offense that you're willing to hold a several page long argument on an internet forum, and delve into line by line quoting.
But so many others, it's something they'll just try, and if they don't like, they won't buy.
It's at this point where you should probably step back, not because I think you're entirely wrong, but I do think you've hit the point where you're in the stereotypical "internet argument" mode.
Moreover, the rules are set, and are releasing soon.
There are many, many rulesets I read and get a taste of and decide not to buy.
Just because you tire of a discussion - one that was invited by the creators - does not mean I should cease the discussion. You are not obligated to read the thread that is aptly titled "Maelstrom's Edge Discussion".
If you believe the discussion of universal mechanics versus elegant mechanics, abstraction versus literal rules, etc, to be about something I've taken an offense to, you have misunderstood everything that has been said.
We have a unique opportunity to talk to, discuss, question, the design methodology of a rules designer for a soon to be published miniatures rules set, and to waste this opportunity when discussion has been invited is absurd.
Especially since we're on Dakka - the miniatures gaming forum.
Vertrucio wrote: And there were the product of a lot of behind the scenes playtesting too.
judgedoug wrote: I'm actually intrigued for you to expand upon this. Medge is a system where only the Leader's positioning matters - would it not make most sense, in keeping the idea of that Leader being the Absolute Point for measuring, facing, etc, that the terrain the Leader occupies will be what the unit has? In which case it's very easy to define types of cover when a single model is the representation of the unit.
That brings me around to another question. I don't understand the constants of cover in Medge? Can you expand on the design process for cover removing a set number of hits? I thought that was odd, that a 1-man unit and a 10-man unit would benefit exactly the same way (removing 2 hits) due to cover.
I was really keen not to make a game where it should just be played using a single model to represent an entire unit, as I feel like other games have done that at 28mm (made the additional models in the unit more or less irrelevant). So the squad leader model in MEdge determines the squads front/rear arc, is used to check line of sight for the unit, and his WP characteristic is used for the squad's discipline. But everything else is determined by the unit as a whole.
Cover is abstracted that way for a variety of reasons, a couple of the more important being:
1) When you have an alternating activation system, one of the ways people can 'game' it is to take forces filled with MSU. Other games have used a variety of methods to help mitigate this as I'm sure you know. In MEdge, the cover system makes it rather difficult (but not typically impossible) for a small unit to actually kill models in cover...they just suppress them unless they're like snipers or something that is able to ignore cover. That means players are naturally incentivized to take larger squads...or more appropriately they are incentivized to find the right balance between taking MSU to have more tactical flexibility in their force and having larger units do to the heavy lifting of really killing stuff.
2) Weapons designed to take out big targets tend to fire less shots (but cause more damage per hit). When fired against a target in cover, as they get to pick which shots are blocked by the cover, these anti-tank style weapons are the ones that naturally get picked. This really makes a nice divide between heavy weapons designed to take out units in cover and those designed as strike weapons to take out big targets.
Which roughly translates to "I made the game I like and sorry if you don't like it". Which is understandable, but I only began talking about the rules because the implication was that you guys were asking for people to read and respond about the rules. If every discussion of the rules will end in this fashion, then clearly every decision has already been made and the desire for feedback is at least marginally disingenuous.
Let me re-iterate. I think the core mechanic is a good idea. I was hoping the ruleset was not so far along is to be immutable. I still feel it's possible for a system to have both a unified mechanic and be elegant.
The rules are definitely not finalized, but we have to get a beta rulebook out to people very soon so making major changes to the core mechanics at this point would likely mean re-configuring much of the existing rules. Therefore, anyone willing to accept the core rules for what they are (even if they have some issues with them) and give feedback within that scope to help solidify the unit rules and find any major loopholes that can be exploited, etc, is more along the lines of what can actually be incorporated at this point.
2) Weapons designed to take out big targets tend to fire less shots (but cause more damage per hit). When fired against a target in cover, as they get to pick which shots are blocked by the cover, these anti-tank style weapons are the ones that naturally get picked. This really makes a nice divide between heavy weapons designed to take out units in cover and those designed as strike weapons to take out big targets.
Huh? Do you mean in game weapons?
I'm really very curious as to what the overall design philosophy is for the game, are you attempting to create something that reflects modern warfare? or something else?
EDITED: Also let's say you are hiding behind a bunch of logs and it provides the ability to ignore 1 hit. I fire a dual mode rocket into to it, but because you can ignore 1 hit you ignore my dual mode rocket, is that correct?
I'm really very curious as to what the overall design philosophy is for the game, are you attempting to create something that reflects modern warfare? or something else?
EDITED: Also let's say you are hiding behind a bunch of logs and it provides the ability to ignore 1 hit. I fire a dual mode rocket into to it, but because you can ignore 1 hit you ignore my dual mode rocket, is that correct?
No, the goal is to create a fun, tactical game that uses heavy abstraction in places to help recreate some real world modern military combat principles. Naturally in the far future, warfare will likely look nothing at all like it does today, but frankly that's not the game most of us want to play if it can even be represented at 28mm. So yes, tremendous liberties and abstractions are used in service of getting certain points across...which for me abstraction in tabletop games has always been something I appreciate as long as it makes some logical sense and helps make the game more fun/gives the player tough choices to make in-game.
I'm really very curious as to what the overall design philosophy is for the game, are you attempting to create something that reflects modern warfare? or something else?
EDITED: Also let's say you are hiding behind a bunch of logs and it provides the ability to ignore 1 hit. I fire a dual mode rocket into to it, but because you can ignore 1 hit you ignore my dual mode rocket, is that correct?
No, the goal is to create a fun, tactical game that uses heavy abstraction in places to help recreate some real world modern military combat principles. Naturally in the far future, warfare will likely look nothing at all like it does today, but frankly that's not the game most of us want to play if it can even be represented at 28mm. So yes, tremendous liberties and abstractions are used in service of getting certain points across...which for me abstraction in tabletop games has always been something I appreciate as long as it makes some logical sense and helps make the game more fun/gives the player tough choices to make in-game.
You say no, but then you say you are trying to abstract some real world modern military principles, you either are trying to reflect modern warfare or you aren't. In what way do you feel you have successfully abstracted modern military principles? I don't feel you have, I feel you have misunderstood many of those principles and built an unnecessary amount of booking keeping in turn. I won't sit here and list all of what I think is unnecessary as JudgeDoug has already done that.
As someone who has a background in modern military principles and there correct application I do enjoy some abstraction of those principles in a tabletop game that employs weaponry at least bearing some resemblance to modern warfare. For example I enjoy it when things like a combined arms approach and fire and maneuver are viable tactics on the table top.
Ozymandias wrote: I may regret this, but out of curiosity, what games do you enjoy?
In terms of being a reflection of modern military principles? Bolt Action is hands down probably the one game that best abstracts that, at least for me. Ambush Alley does a good job as well (designed by a fellow Marine if I remember), there are some other that I'm sure I can't recall. Other than that it entirely depends on what I expect to get. For instance in a Sci Fi game that purports to reflect military principles on a squad based level I expect my extensive knowledge of small unit tactics to give me an advantage.
DrNo172000 wrote: You say no, but then you say you are trying to abstract some real world modern military principles, you either are trying to reflect modern warfare or you aren't. In what way do you feel you have successfully abstracted modern military principles? I don't feel you have, I feel you have misunderstood many of those principles and built an unnecessary amount of booking keeping in turn. I won't sit here and list all of what I think is unnecessary as JudgeDoug has already done that.
As someone who has a background in modern military principles and there correct application I do enjoy some abstraction of those principles in a tabletop game that employs weaponry at least bearing some resemblance to modern warfare. For example I enjoy it when things like a combined arms approach and fire and maneuver are viable tactics on the table top.
Fair enough, you are obviously entitled to your opinion.
IMHO, the rules most certainly do cover fire and maneuver, in that shooting at a unit while it is cover will cause it to accrue more suppression. Then, once a unit is suppressed enough (or if you want to gamble on it with a little bit of suppression) you can safely move another unit that is equipped with short-ranged weapons (which tend to fire double the number of shots at short range) into short range of the suppressed unit and obliterate it. In addition, there is a nod to attacking a unit from a direction from which they are unprepared, which is abstracted through the use of a front/rear arc for the unit.
When it comes to combined arms, I'm not entirely sure which aspects of the doctrine you prefer to see employed, but there are certainly some elements of that built into some of the faction rules, such as the Firefly drones painting targets for guided missiles fired from the Hunters, Aerial Drone strikes called in from the Bot Handlers and Karist Angels and shadow walkers being used to cause a form of fear (which counts as automatic extra suppression tokens while they're within 12" of that unit), that other Karist units can then exploit. Not to mention the mechanics command points and having reinforcements come back (representing off-table support being sent in). But certainly trying to represent combined arms was not a focus like getting some elements of fire and maneuver in there.
Ozymandias wrote: I may regret this, but out of curiosity, what games do you enjoy?
In terms of being a reflection of modern military principles? Bolt Action is hands down probably the one game that best abstracts that, at least for me. Ambush Alley does a good job as well (designed by a fellow Marine if I remember), there are some other that I'm sure I can't recall. Other than that it entirely depends on what I expect to get. For instance in a Sci Fi game that purports to reflect military principles on a squad based level I expect my extensive knowledge of small unit tactics to give me an advantage.
See, I disagree with your basic premise. I don't think Maelstrom's edge "purports to reflect military principles on a squad based level." Jon has said that one inspiration was a video game that taught basic squad based tactics but the game purports itself to be (from the KS page):
A squad-based tabletop wargame with tactically interesting but mechanically fluid rules, perfect for someone who appreciates strategy, pace and engagement.
A brand new sci-fi universe supported by years of writing and published novels.
A boxed set featuring extremely detailed multi-part and multi-pose plastic models, ensuring no two models need look the same.
A complete package of rules, models, dice, templates, and tokens - everything you need to play out of the box.
I don't have any real-life military experience, but that isn't why I play miniature games. I am super interested in this game, but I'm basically the target audience, someone who used to play 40k but who is disillusioned with the current state of that game and wants a game where maneuvering and tactical choices matter. From what it sounds like, maybe this isn't the game for you and judgedoug (which is ok).
DrNo172000 wrote: You say no, but then you say you are trying to abstract some real world modern military principles, you either are trying to reflect modern warfare or you aren't. In what way do you feel you have successfully abstracted modern military principles? I don't feel you have, I feel you have misunderstood many of those principles and built an unnecessary amount of booking keeping in turn. I won't sit here and list all of what I think is unnecessary as JudgeDoug has already done that.
As someone who has a background in modern military principles and there correct application I do enjoy some abstraction of those principles in a tabletop game that employs weaponry at least bearing some resemblance to modern warfare. For example I enjoy it when things like a combined arms approach and fire and maneuver are viable tactics on the table top.
Fair enough, you are obviously entitled to your opinion.
IMHO, the rules most certainly do cover fire and maneuver, in that shooting at a unit while it is cover will cause it to accrue more suppression. Then, once a unit is suppressed enough (or if you want to gamble on it with a little bit of suppression) you can safely move another unit that is equipped with short-ranged weapons (which tend to fire double the number of shots at short range) into short range of the suppressed unit and obliterate it. In addition, there is a nod to attacking a unit from a direction from which they are unprepared, which is abstracted through the use of a front/rear arc for the unit.
When it comes to combined arms, I'm not entirely sure which aspects of the doctrine you prefer to see employed, but there are certainly some elements of that built into some of the faction rules, such as the Firefly drones painting targets for guided missiles fired from the Hunters, Aerial Drone strikes called in from the Bot Handlers and Karist Angels and shadow walkers being used to cause a form of fear (which counts as automatic extra suppression tokens while they're within 12" of that unit), that other Karist units can then exploit. Not to mention the mechanics command points and having reinforcements come back (representing off-table support being sent in). But certainly trying to represent combined arms was not a focus like getting some elements of fire and maneuver in there.
Fair enough we will have to agree to disagree on how those things actually work. Otherwise we will end up in a never ending discussion about core mechanics that will not change as you have stated. That wouldn't be helpful to either of us.
For combined arms, I will give you the most basic example at the squad level straight from Marine Corps doctrine. The M249 pins the enemy so that you can kill them with HEDP from the M203, the M203 forces the enemy out of their position so that you expose them to hostile fire from the M249 killing them.
@Ozy my premise was based on the fact that yakface stated that he has attempted to abstract modern military principles and that the game is squad based. And while it doesn't say that on the KS, the creator saying it in this thread makes it so for me.
I will admit I am sensitive to such things because I do have a background in it. Also when I see weapons and miniatures on a table that make me think of those things I tend to immediately expect my knowledge to give me an upper hand.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note I actually hated Bolt Action after watching a few games of it because it lacked both suppression fire and point fire which are two very different things. Then I played it because I'm a front house manager at a store and JudgeDoug is our Sarge and we were gearing up to carry it and I make it my business to know a little about all the games we carry. I then realized that Bolt Action had beautifully abstracted all the things I wanted and now I love it. So maybe I will give MEdge a try some day and be pleasantly surprised by it.
Note I actually hated Bolt Action after watching a few games of it because it lacked both suppression fire and point fire which are two very different things. Then I played it because I'm a front house manager at a store and JudgeDoug is our Sarge and we were gearing up to carry it and I make it my business to know a little about all the games we carry. I then realized that Bolt Action had beautifully abstracted all the things I wanted and now I love it. So maybe I will give MEdge a try some day and be pleasantly surprised by it.
Well, I had some time on my hands, and Alex Holker was so generous with his or her artistic talents, that I thought it was only fair to share some of my Karist Minnow fan art.
Talking about the robots, i like the votom/dougram inspired design, the only gripe i have with it is the boxy (right) underarm the underarm should never be bigger than the weapon it makes the weapon look small.
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: The rules are definitely not finalized, but we have to get a beta rulebook out to people very soon so making major changes to the core mechanics at this point would likely mean re-configuring much of the existing rules. Therefore, anyone willing to accept the core rules for what they are (even if they have some issues with them) and give feedback within that scope to help solidify the unit rules and find any major loopholes that can be exploited, etc, is more along the lines of what can actually be incorporated at this point.
I just wanted to thank you for responding to my questions and criticisms with the thoughts on your design processes. It's rare to be able to talk to a published game designer in such a way and speaks volumes to your willingness to interact with the community.
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: The rules are definitely not finalized, but we have to get a beta rulebook out to people very soon so making major changes to the core mechanics at this point would likely mean re-configuring much of the existing rules. Therefore, anyone willing to accept the core rules for what they are (even if they have some issues with them) and give feedback within that scope to help solidify the unit rules and find any major loopholes that can be exploited, etc, is more along the lines of what can actually be incorporated at this point.
I just wanted to thank you for responding to my questions and criticisms with the thoughts on your design processes. It's rare to be able to talk to a published game designer in such a way and speaks volumes to your willingness to interact with the community.
I want to second this, not only that but your responses have always been civil which speaks volumes to someone like me. I will most likely try the game given the chance just because of your civil attitude yakface. Cheers and best of luck on the KS.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Talking about the robots, i like the votom/dougram inspired design, the only gripe i have with it is the boxy (right) underarm the underarm should never be bigger than the weapon it makes the weapon look small.
Just checked the KS out, love the Hunter robots.... I got that VOTMOS gundog vibe from them.....
I'm not really interested in the game that much but new cool looking robot models do seem to keep me interested. I can't wait until these are on sale How big are they? Can we see them scaled next to another model? Do you have a -planned- price point (even though it might be subject to change aka a ball park figure?)
( the other 'robot' or mecha suit that had me interested was the UAMC suit from the 'game/company/person we shall not name, they had a nice Ma.K vibe to them which I loved.)
So, I read the two newest stories and I think the writing has improved. The stories still have the stuff I like, but the prose style is quite a bit better than it was, indeed better than in many published works. The action pacing is improved. There are almost no awkward sentences. The bits of milSF gun-blargle and tech-porn add authenticity to the characters' viewpoints without getting anywhere pervasive enough to warrant a collaborating gig with David Webber. I look forward to reading more.
Also, a lot of the design art that shows up in the updates is really top-notch. I really hope there's a pdf 'art book' for this kickstarter.
Because they have the same filename, so the attachment system thinks they're the same image.
Is this common with Apple products? I had no idea the system wasn't saving my pictures as pic1.jpg, pic2.jpg, etc.. You've just solved a lot of my frustrations with uploading pictures. Thanks!
Alex, Monders, thanks for the encouragement. I have very little art training, so imitation is how I learn, like a parrot learning speech...
Alex, I like what you've changed about the Scarecrow. The two hands and balanced, retractable maglock really add to the utilitarian perception of the mini. I'm not sure whether I like the shortened forearms, though, as they make the robot look more humanoid, like a suit of comic book armor. The head looks more like a helmet than a cockpit in your drawing, too, although I would have preferred the one lens look of the drones and hunters to either. I wish I could do the human form as much justice in perspective without my usual sloppy lines and blurred details.
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: The rules are definitely not finalized, but we have to get a beta rulebook out to people very soon so making major changes to the core mechanics at this point would likely mean re-configuring much of the existing rules. Therefore, anyone willing to accept the core rules for what they are (even if they have some issues with them) and give feedback within that scope to help solidify the unit rules and find any major loopholes that can be exploited, etc, is more along the lines of what can actually be incorporated at this point.
I just wanted to thank you for responding to my questions and criticisms with the thoughts on your design processes. It's rare to be able to talk to a published game designer in such a way and speaks volumes to your willingness to interact with the community.
I want to echo this, too. Access to the creative team is one of the highlights of the Maelstrom Edge game for me and keeps me coming back.
AlexHolker wrote: I was going to do my take on the Minnows, but the Scarecrows popped up again, so here's another rough sketch.
The main things I changed here were the addition of a second hand, and the longer shoulder-mounted weapon so it's less front heavy.
And some thick af thighs and skinny shins.
Don't get me wrong, it definitely looks better than stick leg thighs and ugg boots as the models currently stand
(not that that isn't a valid design as well, I just prefer this drawn one)
but it definitely has some inspiration from human female anatomy. Or perhaps a male that just really enjoys doing squats
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Alex, I like what you've changed about the Scarecrow. The two hands and balanced, retractable maglock really add to the utilitarian perception of the mini. I'm not sure whether I like the shortened forearms, though, as they make the robot look more humanoid, like a suit of comic book armor. The head looks more like a helmet than a cockpit in your drawing, too, although I would have preferred the one lens look of the drones and hunters to either. I wish I could do the human form as much justice in perspective without my usual sloppy lines and blurred details.
I'll have a go at all three of those - the cockpit-like inset head, the single lens head like the other drones, and longer arms more like the models.
bocatt wrote: And some thick af thighs and skinny shins.
Don't get me wrong, it definitely looks better than stick leg thighs and ugg boots as the models currently stand
(not that that isn't a valid design as well, I just prefer this drawn one)
but it definitely has some inspiration from human female anatomy. Or perhaps a male that just really enjoys doing squats
Ah, you're right! In the earlier photograph that I was using as a reference the gun arm obscured much of the thighs, so I didn't even notice I had changed it.
Okay, here's the modified versions - one with a lower slung head, and one with a really low slung drone head, and longer arms. Sticking to something close to human proportions for the skeleton has the advantage of allowing better humanlike movement - either so you can use mocap as a shortcut for programming the drones or so that any kind of mental drone control system gives the controller a body that moves like their own instead of with the awkwardness of a sudden growth spurt - but here you go.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, I read the two newest stories and I think the writing has improved. The stories still have the stuff I like, but the prose style is quite a bit better than it was, indeed better than in many published works. The action pacing is improved. There are almost no awkward sentences. The bits of milSF gun-blargle and tech-porn add authenticity to the characters' viewpoints without getting anywhere pervasive enough to warrant a collaborating gig with David Webber. I look forward to reading more.
Also, a lot of the design art that shows up in the updates is really top-notch. I really hope there's a pdf 'art book' for this kickstarter.
judgedoug wrote: I just wanted to thank you for responding to my questions and criticisms with the thoughts on your design processes. It's rare to be able to talk to a published game designer in such a way and speaks volumes to your willingness to interact with the community.
I want to echo this, too. Access to the creative team is one of the highlights of the Maelstrom Edge game for me and keeps me coming back.
Thank you for the kind words. Actually two of the three stories of mine released so far ('The Scarecrow' and 'The Shipyard') were the first things I wrote when I joined the project way back in 2011. They've been a tweaked a little since as we developed the factions, but aside from a few changes they are mostly the same as they were then. The third story, 'The Hunter' was written over the last two weeks, so a little more recent! That last story is set during events of the second novel, 'Sacrifice', and actually explains a little part of the plot that occurs late in the novel.
The novel excerpt is from the middle of the first book so perhaps doesn't have the same pace and establishment of character and settings as a standalone story but thank you for the feedback on it - I'll take a look at tweaking the language on that if we do a second release of the books.
All of the core team are gamers and scifi fans and we want to keep that line of dialogue going with the community as much as we can. We tried to create the game we always wanted to play and enjoy, and we appreciate the support and feedback we've got from everyone so far.
AlexHolker wrote: Okay, here's the modified versions - one with a lower slung head, and one with a really low slung drone head, and longer arms. Sticking to something close to human proportions for the skeleton has the advantage of allowing better humanlike movement - either so you can use mocap as a shortcut for programming the drones or so that any kind of mental drone control system gives the controller a body that moves like their own instead of with the awkwardness of a sudden growth spurt - but here you go.
That's a really good point... Anyway, the sunken heads don't really do it for me. The rest of the robot bodies remind me of The Black Hole for some reason.
Are you doing these drawings by hand or on a computer?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, I read the two newest stories and I think the writing has improved. The stories still have the stuff I like, but the prose style is quite a bit better than it was, indeed better than in many published works. The action pacing is improved. There are almost no awkward sentences. The bits of milSF gun-blargle and tech-porn add authenticity to the characters' viewpoints without getting anywhere pervasive enough to warrant a collaborating gig with David Webber. I look forward to reading more.
Also, a lot of the design art that shows up in the updates is really top-notch. I really hope there's a pdf 'art book' for this kickstarter.
judgedoug wrote: I just wanted to thank you for responding to my questions and criticisms with the thoughts on your design processes. It's rare to be able to talk to a published game designer in such a way and speaks volumes to your willingness to interact with the community.
I want to echo this, too. Access to the creative team is one of the highlights of the Maelstrom Edge game for me and keeps me coming back.
Thank you for the kind words. Actually two of the three stories of mine released so far ('The Scarecrow' and 'The Shipyard') were the first things I wrote when I joined the project way back in 2011. They've been a tweaked a little since as we developed the factions, but aside from a few changes they are mostly the same as they were then. The third story, 'The Hunter' was written over the last two weeks, so a little more recent! That last story is set during events of the second novel, 'Sacrifice', and actually explains a little part of the plot that occurs late in the novel.
The novel excerpt is from the middle of the first book so perhaps doesn't have the same pace and establishment of character and settings as a standalone story but thank you for the feedback on it - I'll take a look at tweaking the language on that if we do a second release of the books.
All of the core team are gamers and scifi fans and we want to keep that line of dialogue going with the community as much as we can. We tried to create the game we always wanted to play and enjoy, and we appreciate the support and feedback we've got from everyone so far.
The Scarecrow feels like a more polished story than the Shipyard to me. I also really enjoyed getting the perspective of a Karist 'cell'. The play between the new squad leader/chaplain and the more down to earth acolytes made me want to read more about the Karists. Also, without spoiling the ending, I like it when machines take advantage of one of their biggest advantages over biologicals.
The Hunter is the best of the three, and it definitely made me want to assemble some drones to play pew-pews with. I enjoyed the limited viewpoint scenes from the Hunter's POV, and the main character was engaging. It's fun to get an idea of what the Epirians do in their daily lives before things blow up.
I'll let you know what I think of the novels when I finally get to read them in paperback.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The biggest weakness in The Shipyard was a tendency to put the emotional climax at the beginning of long sentences. It robbed certain scenes of their full potency, such as when a beloved drone died... and then the sentence went on about a routine patrol through some mountains and kind of kept going and tapering off ...and now the focus is kind of diluted. I haven't seen that in the other two stories, though, which is great.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Anyway, the sunken heads don't really do it for me. The rest of the robot bodies remind me of The Black Hole for some reason.
Are you doing these drawings by hand or on a computer?
I've been doing these on the computer in GIMP. It's a pity you didn't like the reworks, but I've got another drone concept I'm working on that you might like.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Anyway, the sunken heads don't really do it for me. The rest of the robot bodies remind me of The Black Hole for some reason.
Are you doing these drawings by hand or on a computer?
I've been doing these on the computer in GIMP. It's a pity you didn't like the reworks, but I've got another drone concept I'm working on that you might like.
You did a fine job drawing them. The things I didn't like we're my own suggestions. Just didn't know how they would pan out.
Not really sure why, but I love the 'X' guns featured on the drone sprue. Sure they don't have a role in the game, but I just find it cool that they are included.
Inspector #264 wrote: Not really sure why, but I love the 'X' guns featured on the drone sprue. Sure they don't have a role in the game, but I just find it cool that they are included.
Guess I am a tad weird.
I suspect we will see them on a lot of Scarecrow shoulders.
Although I personally don't mind the look of the stock Scarecrow shoulder weapon I can see why that may well be the case, and with 4 per drone sprue and 4 drone sprues per stater box there will be plently to go round.
It looks like you have successfully captured the theme of the setting in your new card game.
This is not a good thing.
The setting of Maelstrom's Edge is a terrible match with the game you want to play in that setting. As has been said earlier in this thread, the Maelstrom is not a problem with a military solution, so the fighting that is the subject of the game has more in common with rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic than anything worthwhile.
And now you've got a card game that draws attention to this flaw. The obvious objective for your fleet in this game is to salvage as much as you can from these four planets before they are destroyed. The best way to do that is to not get into a pointless pissing match with the other fleet, if not cooperate outright. But since you don't want that, the victory conditions make it so that stopping somebody else salvaging X resources is just as good as you salvaging an additional X resources.
AlexHolker wrote: The best way to do that is to not get into a pointless pissing match with the other fleet, if not cooperate outright.
Absolutely. If there's one thing that history has taught us, it's that humanity can always be counted on to find an amicable solution when resources are on the line...
AlexHolker wrote: The best way to do that is to not get into a pointless pissing match with the other fleet, if not cooperate outright.
Absolutely. If there's one thing that history has taught us, it's that humanity can always be counted on to find an amicable solution when resources are on the line...
But resources aren't on the line. Shooting the other guy doesn't make the Maelstrom come any slower and, I quote: "Planets are large enough that you and your opponent can syphon at the same time".
AlexHolker wrote: But resources aren't on the line. Shooting the other guy doesn't make the Maelstrom come any slower and, I quote: "Planets are large enough that you and your opponent can syphon at the same time".
How do you think most of the worlds' governments would respond to a neighbour sauntering onto their territory and setting up a mine?
I mean, it doesn't stop their mines from operating at the same time, so should be perfectly ok, right?
Are any of the factions openly at war? Do we know anything about how the aliens operate? Without knowing, we can only speculate, and I tend to favor Alex's interpretation instead of playing The Road....in Spaaaaaaace.
AlexHolker wrote: The best way to do that is to not get into a pointless pissing match with the other fleet, if not cooperate outright.
Absolutely. If there's one thing that history has taught us, it's that humanity can always be counted on to find an amicable solution when resources are on the line...
But resources aren't on the line. Shooting the other guy doesn't make the Maelstrom come any slower and, I quote: "Planets are large enough that you and your opponent can syphon at the same time".
I think you're confusing "Your wallet is big enough for two people to hold" with "Your wallet holds enough money for two people."
AlexHolker wrote: The best way to do that is to not get into a pointless pissing match with the other fleet, if not cooperate outright.
Absolutely. If there's one thing that history has taught us, it's that humanity can always be counted on to find an amicable solution when resources are on the line...
But resources aren't on the line. Shooting the other guy doesn't make the Maelstrom come any slower and, I quote: "Planets are large enough that you and your opponent can syphon at the same time".
Exactly history shows that 2 countries readily share their resources without resorting to war.... oh wait.
Survival brings the best and worst out of people, with governments is usual the latter.
AlexHolker wrote: It looks like you have successfully captured the theme of the setting in your new card game.
This is not a good thing.
The setting of Maelstrom's Edge is a terrible match with the game you want to play in that setting. As has been said earlier in this thread, the Maelstrom is not a problem with a military solution, so the fighting that is the subject of the game has more in common with rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic than anything worthwhile.
And now you've got a card game that draws attention to this flaw. The obvious objective for your fleet in this game is to salvage as much as you can from these four planets before they are destroyed. The best way to do that is to not get into a pointless pissing match with the other fleet, if not cooperate outright. But since you don't want that, the victory conditions make it so that stopping somebody else salvaging X resources is just as good as you salvaging an additional X resources.
You have to think of how the Maelstrom actually approaches in with the right timescale in mind. A world can be considered at the Maelstrom's Edge when there is roughly less than a human's lifetime remaining. The progress of the Maelstrom's advance can fluctuate, so nobody knows when it will hit for certain, but that's the rough timescale when things really start to go crazy because before that point a person living on that world is only worrying about what their children *might* have to face as opposed to facing it themselves directly.
Once that line is crossed, people really start to panic and governments, the rich and the military generally tend to evacuate leaving most people behind, because it doesn't make economic sense for them to do otherwise. There are obviously plenty of exceptions to this situation, but that would be the most common one. So that leaves a really long time (many decades) if you think about it, for crazy stuff to occur at a planet on the Maelstrom's Edge for those inclined to risk it.
While individuals trapped on a planet are very much focused solely on escaping, on a macro-level many factions are actually coming *back* to planets at the edge because those planets tend to be easy pickings for valuable resources (as their governments and military tend to be gone or severely weakened). They can literally spend decades pillaging these planets for those valuable resources. Whether or not those factions also save people depends very much on their worldview and a lot is dependent upon the individual commanders of the fleets/ships and how much they're willing to sacrifice the point of the mission (economic gain) in order to save lives.
So if you think about it, in a way the Maelstrom's edge is kind of like the wild west with a twist, in that there are tons of opportunities to get rich, lack of government stability, and a plethora of violence and opportunism going on. But whereas in the wild west people were looking to set up a life there for their future, on the edge people are looking to make what they can for as long as they can before getting the heck out of dodge (hopefully in time before the Maelstrom hits).
Or in short: because of the slow pace of the Maelstrom's advance, from a macro-level you shouldn't think of it like a crazy mad dash to save everyone like Battlestar Galactica or something where we could maybe imagine factions joining together selflessly to make happen. Instead, it is a long, long time for factions to actually try to exploit doomed worlds for their own gain moving forward.
Or another way to look at it as something from our world: imagine if there was a region of our world that was known to have great natural resources (say the middle east), but suddenly everyone knew it was going to disappear in about 100 years...but it could happen really anytime, and for some reason it was exorbitantly expensive a cost to leave the region. So all the governments and rich of the region would use their wealth to evacuate before there was any chance for them to get caught up in it. At that point, what do you realistically believe would happen? The probable truth is that all the powerful governments in the world would attempt to stake their claim to salvage as much oil from the region as possible before it went away, and would likely fight each other over it. Would there also be efforts to save the people? Absolutely, but if it was so exorbitantly costly to do so, the amount of people saved vs. the effort used to harvest resources would probably tip way towards the latter.
AlexHolker wrote: It looks like you have successfully captured the theme of the setting in your new card game.
This is not a good thing.
The setting of Maelstrom's Edge is a terrible match with the game you want to play in that setting. As has been said earlier in this thread, the Maelstrom is not a problem with a military solution, so the fighting that is the subject of the game has more in common with rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic than anything worthwhile.
And now you've got a card game that draws attention to this flaw. The obvious objective for your fleet in this game is to salvage as much as you can from these four planets before they are destroyed. The best way to do that is to not get into a pointless pissing match with the other fleet, if not cooperate outright. But since you don't want that, the victory conditions make it so that stopping somebody else salvaging X resources is just as good as you salvaging an additional X resources.
You have to think of how the Maelstrom actually approaches in with the right timescale in mind. A world can be considered at the Maelstrom's Edge when there is roughly less than a human's lifetime remaining. The progress of the Maelstrom's advance can fluctuate, so nobody knows when it will hit for certain, but that's the rough timescale when things really start to go crazy because before that point a person living on that world is only worrying about what their children *might* have to face as opposed to facing it themselves directly.
Once that line is crossed, people really start to panic and governments, the rich and the military generally tend to evacuate leaving most people behind, because it doesn't make economic sense for them to do otherwise. There are obviously plenty of exceptions to this situation, but that would be the most common one. So that leaves a really long time (many decades) if you think about it, for crazy stuff to occur at a planet on the Maelstrom's Edge for those inclined to risk it.
While individuals trapped on a planet are very much focused solely on escaping, on a macro-level many factions are actually coming *back* to planets at the edge because those planets tend to be easy pickings for valuable resources (as their governments and military tend to be gone or severely weakened). They can literally spend decades pillaging these planets for those valuable resources. Whether or not those factions also save people depends very much on their worldview and a lot is dependent upon the individual commanders of the fleets/ships and how much they're willing to sacrifice the point of the mission (economic gain) in order to save lives.
So if you think about it, in a way the Maelstrom's edge is kind of like the wild west with a twist, in that there are tons of opportunities to get rich, lack of government stability, and a plethora of violence and opportunism going on. But whereas in the wild west people were looking to set up a life there for their future, on the edge people are looking to make what they can for as long as they can before getting the heck out of dodge (hopefully in time before the Maelstrom hits).
Or in short: because of the slow pace of the Maelstrom's advance, from a macro-level you shouldn't think of it like a crazy mad dash to save everyone like Battlestar Galactica or something where we could maybe imagine factions joining together selflessly to make happen. Instead, it is a long, long time for factions to actually try to exploit doomed worlds for their own gain moving forward.
Or another way to look at it as something from our world: imagine if there was a region of our world that was known to have great natural resources (say the middle east), but suddenly everyone knew it was going to disappear in about 100 years...but it could happen really anytime, and for some reason it was exorbitantly expensive a cost to leave the region. So all the governments and rich of the region would use their wealth to evacuate before there was any chance for them to get caught up in it. At that point, what do you realistically believe would happen? The probable truth is that all the powerful governments in the world would attempt to stake their claim to salvage as much oil from the region as possible before it went away, and would likely fight each other over it. Would there also be efforts to save the people? Absolutely, but if it was so exorbitantly costly to do so, the amount of people saved vs. the effort used to harvest resources would probably tip way towards the latter.
I had opened this thread tonight to post a detailed and well thought-out explanation for why I wasn't going to play Maelstrom. But this post (the inverse Wild West angle) has managed to make me seriously rethink that.
I'd honestly like to see that desperado, lawless aspect played up more than the military-in-space stuff we've all seen a million times before. Hopefully future products put a greater emphasis on that.
Side question: Will the models be available for purchase separately when this goes to retail? (Will it eventually be available for retail?)
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: You have to think of how the Maelstrom actually approaches in with the right timescale in mind.
We are talking about planets which have suddenly acquired an expiration date. That's planets. Plural. At some point the abundance of a resource exceeds your capacity to exploit it, and unless you're building Dyson spheres that point comes well before impending doom opens up entire planets to being strip-mined.
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: You have to think of how the Maelstrom actually approaches in with the right timescale in mind.
We are talking about planets which have suddenly acquired an expiration date. That's planets. Plural. At some point the abundance of a resource exceeds your capacity to exploit it, and unless you're building Dyson spheres that point comes well before impending doom opens up entire planets to being strip-mined.
Government A and Government B send ships over to a planet.
Government A gets there first, and grabs up the best mining spots.
There's enough room for Government B to say "Shuck, A beat us to the best spots," shrug, and set up mining in the left overs. Or, B can launch a military attack against A.
Replace "best mining spots" with "more than their share of mining spots" if you want.
Keep in mind that these are people we're talking about. People with the well documented behavior of "We both got free stuff, but that person got more free stuff than I did. That's not fair, so I'm going to make sure no one gets anything."
The fact that there's enough room for both A and B to mine the planet isn't really going to be an obstacle to conflict.
First thing that I noticed, one-strap kneepads. Nope. Those will be ankle guards/off the food entirely after 2 metres with your nose in the dirt.
I know its a minor thing, but it really jumped out at me as a solid annoyance in that sketch. Similarly, think about actually kneeling on those to take a firing position, the less angular knee pads of the models would, from what I can see of the models, get less in the way than ones that have the large flat surface like you included. At least for the way I shoot, and I don't think I'm too weird ha.
After that there's just a smattering of personal preference with bits and bobs of it, not that important.
motyak wrote: First thing that I noticed, one-strap kneepads. Nope. Those will be ankle guards/off the food entirely after 2 metres with your nose in the dirt.
That's what's on the Epirian minis, though, so I'm assuming he's stuck with that for consistency.
motyak wrote: First thing that I noticed, one-strap kneepads. Nope. Those will be ankle guards/off the food entirely after 2 metres with your nose in the dirt.
I know its a minor thing, but it really jumped out at me as a solid annoyance in that sketch. Similarly, think about actually kneeling on those to take a firing position, the less angular knee pads of the models would, from what I can see of the models, get less in the way than ones that have the large flat surface like you included. At least for the way I shoot, and I don't think I'm too weird ha.
Thanks for the input. I'm perfectly happy redoing them in favour of something more sensible, it's just something I'm not sufficiently familiar with that it leaped out at me as a flaw.
motyak wrote: First thing that I noticed, one-strap kneepads. Nope. Those will be ankle guards/off the food entirely after 2 metres with your nose in the dirt.
That's what's on the Epirian minis, though, so I'm assuming he's stuck with that for consistency.
Ah right. The shape of the knee pad on the models is more to my liking, so I think I glossed over it after ticking that off in my mind if that makes sense. With the flat topped ones in the sketch, I didn't like them, so I then saw the rest of it. Makes more sense.
So, here's the thing. I want Medge to survive and prosper. I want to be able to read Medge novels while building Medge minis that I will never paint. I want people to have enthusiastic discussions about the Medge background and rules. I want a Medge HHHobby. I gather that's what the creators were aiming for, too.
Unfortunately, the Kickstarter campaign doesn't seem to have lit the room on fire. This worries me because I'm afraid people who passed on the KS will have inertia against Medge when it comes out in retail. With only a few hundred backers worldwide, Medge will have a long uphill struggle to succeed based on local gaming clubs, word of mouth, and FLGS presence. Meanwhile, it's clear that hundreds of thousands of dollars have been invested in the plastic tooling, the art, the game components, the fiction and the rules writing. If Medge is slow to earn that back, it will deter future expansion, which will give the game the stagnant feeling that can keep new players away. SAS already stated that the level of KS success will determine future retail pricing, box contents, and other stuff, which means we're looking at a more conservative retail release with likely less-attractive per-unit prices. In a market where Mantic and DFG have plastic troopers coming out every year or so, and where Miniature Market will dump last-years' losers at buy-it-now prices, the per-unit prices can make or break the game.
I don't want to do a complete post-mortem (or, uh, vivisection since the campaign is still live), but I do want to know why the KS didn't strike a spark and what it would take to get new backers in and old backers spending more. Since there's only a week left, I also want to think about what would make Medge's retail launch more exciting.
A lot of the more vocal abstainers have discussed their issues with Medge already, so I'll bring some of them up.
1. The box doesn't have enough plastic in it. One poster pointed out that plastic minis only do well in Kickstarters if they are sold by the bucket or if they are amazing sculpts. The consensus is that Medge's sculpts are "pretty good" with a few exceptions depending on the beholder, so they can't use the Kingdom Death/WWX/Wyrd approach. That leaves the Mantic "quantity is a quality that's ...better than our quality" approach. People have stated that they would buy Medge minis if they had enough to use in other games (i.e. more than 5 troopers per type) in case they don't like Medge's rules. So, if it is at all possible, more plastic in the box, or better yet as add-ons, could make the game more attractive. A bulk deal for the terrain sprues would not go amiss since every discussion about them ends up with a backer asking how many one should buy.
2. The rules. Some people love the rules. Some people don't. However, I suspect a good global campaign could draw in interest even from people who would prefer more elegant systems. I'll be blunt: this campaign feels like an attempt to capture that old 40k feeling from back when everyone loved 40k. Why was 40k so popular? Widespread participation (for many reasons). Why not have an Eye of Terror campaign that everyone can participate in? Give an invite to everyone who pledged for rules in one form or another, have some 'combat simulation' beta playtesting, and then begin the actual campaign so that the playtesters are rewarded with a chance to take part in something that will affect the greater Medge universe. If the results matter (even if they only affect one faction or one novel's story arc or one permanent character's bio), I bet it would bring a lot of enthusiasm to the rules and the fluff conjointly. I would like to see the rules, fluff and art for the other factions debuted for the campaign, even if it means those players have to proxy for those factions.
If everyone gets a terrain sprue in the package, why not have a contest? Make some base rules, such as a time limit of a week and a budget of $20, and see who can make the best terrain out of flower pots, fast food boxes, biscotti bins, CD spindles, etc. The winning terrain entries get to be used for the big action set pieces for a future novel or short story that will set the mood for another campaign... A Hobby for everyone.
3. The fluff. It is difficult to translate a Man Vs Nature setting into a Man Vs Man wargame. One can draw a tenuous path directly from "It's the end of the world as we know it" straight to "Everybody was kung fu fighting," but it clearly doesn't appeal to everyone. I personally find the response to such criticism unappealing, especially since in this thread it often takes the form of "suffering people gonna fight lol." Now, I've read the stories and I think the Hunter and the Scarecrow do a far, far better job of 'selling' the setting and the factions than all the blocky word blocks on the TLDR main campaign page. Most potential backers won't bother reading the fiction, though. So, my recommendation is for Medge to slaughter its darlings and start over. Can you describe each faction in 25-50 words? Can you give me a 100 word 'bolterporn' vignette for the coolest mini/unit/character in each faction? Basically, please give me the back of the book highlights now and some nice 3rd or 4th Edition Codex style write-ups for the factions with art and stories at retail launch? Better yet, look at the AT-43 army books that manage to fit in just as much character and background in a noticeably slimmer book.
Oh, and can we please have enough of the background to understand the remaining factions and why they fight? A whole second layer of motivation would really help. Do the aliens blame humanity for the Maelstrom? Do the broken want to defeat the capitalist foundations? What do the Karist upper echelons want? I feel that the coming of the maelstrom works less as the direct cause of action than as a reminder or accelerator for the more complex Man Vs Man motivations that propel each faction into action. "Asset Realization" is just not going to keep me interested for much longer than a Paul Verhoeven satire, and some people are tired of it already, at least in the context of a wargame. Let the novelists have the broader background, but please give us something a little more focused on combat, with goals that should be achieved by a military.
4. The community. When I heard that Dakka was making a game, the potential community involvement was the first thing that excited me. However, the threads have turned this into Medge's great weakness. People who are far less abrasive than I am have complained that they don't feel safe posting in Medge threads. They are still saying that. The community has absolutely not been welcoming. Yes, there is a lot of criticism, but that just means people care enough to comment in the first place. I don't even know what to say about this problem except that you can't expect Dakka to engage with your game if you won't engage with Dakka.
This was supposed to be a place of fun. Kickstarter threads should express the excitement of the backers, not stifle it.
5. Presentation. Medge has followed a very strict plan during the campaign. Unfortunately, it was missing the kind of pizzazz that makes for an event Kickstarter and the kind of selling that makes for a must-buy kickstarter. Mantic and CMON both have their own KS formulas, and I have no doubt that either of them could have taken the current Medge product, chaps and all, and made half a million with it. I've already posted some of my thoughts, and I've seen Buzzsaw comment on this, too. I would love to hear from the many people who are smarter and more experienced than I am. I would love to see Medge have a slick retail release that gets everyone's attention.
What will help Medge grow faster? What will sell you on it?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, I just refreshed the main campaign page, and it looks a lot better than I remembered. Some of my observations are clearly obsolete.
I was hoping to be excited by ME too, and lost interest almost immediately for a couple of reasons.
*The model aesthetics.
A common complaint, the models just did not catch my interest and I wasn't shown enough of the various model ranges to get past the models that were shown that I did not like. I think the longer than usual campaign window hurt in this area as new models were slowly trickled out and by the time the Scarecrows and the big robot were shown I had already made up my mind about not backing. Another issue was the model bases. Early in the campaign it was noted that the model bases may be revised at a later date, and there were questions about the use of round bases for infantry whether or not the flying units would stay on hex bases or move over to round plastic bases. Perhaps this was later addressed, but at the time the response was that the bases were still up in the air and things might get changed down the road. This was a major turn off for me as it gave the impression that ME was still unpolished. Coupled with the Empirians, it seemed like ME 2.0 was already being thought about which made me infinitely less interested in messing around with the initial 1.0 version.
And related, while it was great to have so much completed by SAS in time for the campaign, not being able to influence the direction of much of anything regarding the game or contents took away much of the excitement KS campaigns generate for me. Being told the models are finalized and legitimate complaints cannot be addressed or altered takes this from a crowd-sourced project to get a game into existence and shifts the entire campaign firmly in the "This is what we are doing, would you like to pre-order?"
Another issue I had was the perceived defensiveness of the creators, which coincides with one of your points below:
4. The community. When I heard that Dakka was making a game, the potential community involvement was the first thing that excited me. However, the threads have turned this into Medge's great weakness. People who are far less abrasive than I am have complained that they don't feel safe posting in Medge threads. They are still saying that. The community has absolutely not been welcoming. Yes, there is a lot of criticism, but that just means people care enough to comment in the first place. I don't even know what to say about this problem except that you can't expect Dakka to engage with your game if you won't engage with Dakka.
My impression of the dialog between forum members and SAS staff/contributors was negative when early criticism of the Empirians were first making the rounds. The people associated with the game seemed extremely defensive that the Empirians weren't loved, and the real-world reasons given for why the sculpts looked and functioned the way they did made sense, but weren't satisfying. I don't care that the Empirians were the first attempt SAS made at plastic molded models, nor do I care that they learned a lot from the process. All I care about is that they are trying to convince me to buy what appears to be low quality models with limited pose-ability--and telling me I should be excited about the prospect! A few weeks later when select forum members got sneak peeks of the Empirians and gleefully posted how great they were, it all smacked of a ham-fisted viral marketing campaign. Why were these select people getting sneak previews? Who did they know? Why weren't these sneak previews announced to the public, such as "Come to the Game Shack on Saturday to see the Empirians in person!" or some other hype generating announcement. Instead, private gaming groups got sneak previews? WTH is that? It is weird.
Throughout this campaign there seemed to be various strata of community members with differing levels of involvement/information regarding the game. You had the regular forum members who were trying to get information to decide if they would back the campaign, you had another group who were also potential backers but had connections to get access to materials ahead of everyone else (such as previews of Empirians), then you had the contributors to the game who may have painted minis, or built terrain, or assisted in another fashion to get the game ready for public consumption and finally you had the SAS staffers. All of these groups were clamoring to receive and give information, and it was all disjointed and hard to follow. And it also left me feeling like there was an "in" crowd and the rest of us.
TL;DR- Perceptions of defensiveness on the part of SAS staff/contributors, along with uninteresting models, a slow release rate of information, and an inability to change aspects of the game/models already completed killed all desire to back the game.
I get the impression that if ME can survive long enough for a 2.0 version that it will be a great game to play. Currently it feels unpolished in places, overly polished in others (why do I need a card game and audio books when the base set of models have major flaws?) and doesn't seem to have its footing. At least not enough for me to gamble on buying in.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: 1. The box doesn't have enough plastic in it. One poster pointed out that plastic minis only do well in Kickstarters if they are sold by the bucket or if they are amazing sculpts. The consensus is that Medge's sculpts are "pretty good" with a few exceptions depending on the beholder, so they can't use the Kingdom Death/WWX/Wyrd approach. That leaves the Mantic "quantity is a quality that's ...better than our quality" approach. People have stated that they would buy Medge minis if they had enough to use in other games (i.e. more than 5 troopers per type) in case they don't like Medge's rules. So, if it is at all possible, more plastic in the box, or better yet as add-ons, could make the game more attractive. A bulk deal for the terrain sprues would not go amiss since every discussion about them ends up with a backer asking how many one should buy.
Unfortunately, this is more a problem with Kickstarter and how people have come to perceive it as a result of past projects, than it is a problem with MEdge.
Too many projects have gone for the 'cram everything they can find into the box' approach to entice people to get onboard, and as a result, people have come to expect that in every project... if you don't have more minis that you can fit in a minivan, and a new stretch goal adding more minis every time someone refreshes the page, then you're not 'good value'...
The weird thing is that this attitude persists despite so many of the projects that tried that approach winding up delaying fulfillment by years[i], or just running out of money because the end result simply wasn't profitable or wound up actually costing them money... which is more or less the exact [i]opposite of what Kickstarter is supposed to be for.
SAS went for a more measured approach precisely because they want this game to be an on-going affair. So yes, there's less bonus stuff to set the world on fire. But what that actually means is that what's in the box is the stuff that SAS are certain that they can actually provide at that price, within the specified timeframe. So the draw for this kickstarter isn't 'bucketloads of free stuff'... it's 'a functional game, that can conceivably be delivered when the developer said it would be'... because so many of them simply aren't.
3. The fluff. It is difficult to translate a Man Vs Nature setting into a Man Vs Man wargame.
I really don't see this. 'Crappy catastrophe is happening... people act crappy as a result'. It's the perfect setting for a wargame.
You're right... it's not going to appeal to everyone. That's never going to be a designer's goal, though, because it's impossible.
Feedback on the setting has, from what I've seen, been largely positive. As in, really positive. People are excited about all of the possibilities inherent in it. And that's exactly what you want from a game setting.
4. The community. When I heard that Dakka was making a game, the potential community involvement was the first thing that excited me. However, the threads have turned this into Medge's great weakness. People who are far less abrasive than I am have complained that they don't feel safe posting in Medge threads. They are still saying that. The community has absolutely not been welcoming. Yes, there is a lot of criticism, but that just means people care enough to comment in the first place. I don't even know what to say about this problem except that you can't expect Dakka to engage with your game if you won't engage with Dakka.
So - you want the people behind the game to 'engage' with 'Dakka'... but you want them to be more hands off, so that people feel 'safe' to post their opinions?
I'm not sure you can have both.
There has been plenty of open discussion, from a community that (by and large) has been extremely welcoming. As far as I can recall, not one post has been removed from the News thread. Nor have any warnings been issued to anyone, other than general in-thread notes to get back on-topic. A whole bunch of moderators have posted in the discussion... because they're excited about the project, and it's something that they want to talk about.
If people are feeling 'stifled' as a result, then I would wonder if perhaps the issue might be more with their preferred way of presenting their opinion, rather than with the actual opinion itself. Ultimately, the same rules apply to MEdge threads as apply to any other part of the site. Opinions are welcome, and a lot of posters have managed to present theirs (positive and negative) without being whisked away in black cars in the dead of night.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Early in the campaign it was noted that the model bases may be revised at a later date, and there were questions about the use of round bases for infantry whether or not the flying units would stay on hex bases or move over to round plastic bases.
I think you may have misread something there. There has never been any question about round bases for the infantry, and the hex bases for the flying units are fixed due to tooling costs. That was said right from the start.
The only question around bases was about whether or not the larger models would get them, which comes down to the campaign total.
A few weeks later when select forum members got sneak peeks of the Empirians and gleefully posted how great they were, it all smacked of a ham-fisted viral marketing campaign. Why were these select people getting sneak previews?
Because they went to an event where the models were being shown?
There's no big conspiracy here, unless everyone who went to Salute was in on it...
The one big problem to getting more money from existing backers is the lack of add ons.
At the moment the most enthusiastic supporter is likely to get (at best) 2 box sets (you can give away an extra rule book and tokens to help grow a local player base and feel good about it, paying for more than one extra to give away, nope not unless your rich) and some extra terrain sprues.
If they did allow add ons of the individual sprues at sensible prices (not even dirt cheap ones) they could probably pull in a fair bit more cash from enthusiastic supports who want to bulk out their faction of choice, plus a fair bit more from people who want stuff for other systems (mainly hunters, scarecrows, drones and minows rather than either sets of troopers from the comments
It also means there's no need for backers to make any choices, and choices mean looking at the page, thinking about desciions, chatting to others to see if they agree/disagree with what you've decided, arguing back and forth about wether this is good value, or that hunter is better than those pair of scarecrows etc
but they've chose not to do so to make fulfilment simpler/cheaper, fair enough, they know what their costs are likely to be in both cases
In terms of how they've handled the campaign I think they've mainly done what they can with what they have, a very particular and targeted vision of a 'tight' tournamentable rule set in an interesting universe with minis that look good at 'gaming' distances
Lots of us might casually think about playing a new game, but really in our heart of hearts we know most rule sets we pick up will not see much table time as either we, or our local groups will decide they either don't suit or just don't provide enough local opponents, so with the best will in the world rules are a 'tax' that most of us either pay willingly or grudgingly
The minis are to my eyes a mixed bag but then I prefer to look at mine at eye level, close up in a cabinet so I'm not the right target audience, but I'm sure a fair number of the 'ooh shiney' KS crowd are the same and so this was probably not going to get their cash
As to numbers, actually I think what's in the box is pretty good for the price, with only some of the huge money campaigns like Manitc/CMON doing better, so no complaints or suggestions there. If this had hit $500K I'd have hoped for more stuff but since it hasn't no complaints there
In terms of background we've had loads more than almost any other KS that started from zero, plenty of feedback from the writers, etc, stories, audio books etc and a couple of novels to pick up (although I think fast tracking the sale of the salute left overs would have been smart, unless there were only were a few left)
The KS comments has not worked, sadly, as there hasn't been a chatty community develop, but that's down to the backers (Spiral Arms staff have responded fast and in detail to questions, suggestions etc). This might actually be down to them NOT offereing pie in the sky, backers don't feel the need to come up with demands for Hawkmen, cthulhu, Resevoir dogs or whatever as they know they're not going to get them, so the casual arguing over what they'd like to see that later develops into more relevant (or irrelevant) chat doesn't happen, so the comments seem quite which means others don't post etc. I don't see how they could do more (other than banning all discussion on Dakka so we'd have HAD to use the KS comments)
The one misstep I think they did make was initially moderating the N&R thread too heavily (not deliberately I think, but since all the MODs wanted to see what was going on too much moderating got done), but that said those who were strongly negative were probably not going to buy in in a big way anyway, it just gave things a bit of an awkward look if the first day or two
insaniak wrote: There's no big conspiracy here, unless everyone who went to Salute was in on it...
And I wasn't talking about Salute. I was referring to American players who saw the models among their gaming group. In America. Oh, wait, sarcastic ellipses are need...
BobtheInquisitor wrote: 1. The box doesn't have enough plastic in it. One poster pointed out that plastic minis only do well in Kickstarters if they are sold by the bucket or if they are amazing sculpts. The consensus is that Medge's sculpts are "pretty good" with a few exceptions depending on the beholder, so they can't use the Kingdom Death/WWX/Wyrd approach. That leaves the Mantic "quantity is a quality that's ...better than our quality" approach. People have stated that they would buy Medge minis if they had enough to use in other games (i.e. more than 5 troopers per type) in case they don't like Medge's rules. So, if it is at all possible, more plastic in the box, or better yet as add-ons, could make the game more attractive. A bulk deal for the terrain sprues would not go amiss since every discussion about them ends up with a backer asking how many one should buy.
Unfortunately, this is more a problem with Kickstarter and how people have come to perceive it as a result of past projects, than it is a problem with MEdge.
I disagree.
I compared it to the GW starter boxes, which is obviously the crowd of folks ME is trying to cater to.
The contents, both in terms of quantity and quality, simply don't stack up.
The one misstep I think they did make was initially moderating the N&R thread too heavily (not deliberately I think, but since all the MODs wanted to see what was going on too much moderating got done), but that said those who were strongly negative were probably not going to buy in in a big way anyway, it just gave things a bit of an awkward look if the first day or two
There's always going to be heavier moderation in threads that have more moderators active in them, simply because it makes it more likely that said moderators will see the things that need moderating.
That being said, the reaction to the mod presence in the news thread was noted, and a deliberate effort was made for the mods to all step back a bit.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Early in the campaign it was noted that the model bases may be revised at a later date, and there were questions about the use of round bases for infantry whether or not the flying units would stay on hex bases or move over to round plastic bases.
I think you may have misread something there. There has never been any question about round bases for the infantry, and the hex bases for the flying units are fixed due to tooling costs. That was said right from the start.
The only question around bases was about whether or not the larger models would get them, which comes down to the campaign total.
Perhaps, though I also worded that sentence poorly. I recall talk of eventually moving the flying bases from hexed to round. Is that accurate? That they weren't currently on round bases because of tooling costs, and base changes may occur in the future. Do I have that right? Its been long enough now that I don't recall the specifics but it made me think at the time that some people would have to rebase their models down the road.
It may have been mentioned as a ' way down the road' possibility, but certainly not as something that would be imminent. And given what had been said about the basing rules, rebasing would be unlikely to be required... Although for flight bases, it's not a difficult preposition. Just pop the base off the stem and stick the new base on there.
Perhaps, though I also worded that sentence poorly. I recall talk of eventually moving the flying bases from hexed to round. Is that accurate? That they weren't currently on round bases because of tooling costs, and base changes may occur in the future. Do I have that right? Its been long enough now that I don't recall the specifics but it made me think at the time that some people would have to rebase their models down the road
There are no current plans for us to release circular flight bases.
Some people would prefer to mount the flying stands onto our round bases, and we said that we would make sure that the rules allow for this if players would like to do so.
If for some reason we did release circular flight bases in the future, I can promise you players would absolutely be able to use either, they will never be forced to rebase their models by us.
GW has a lot more freedom to create loss-leaders than a new startup does.
That, and MEdge includes a lot of card components, something GW moved away from years ago, specifically to reduce the cost of their starter sets.
You're right, they do.
But that doesn't make them any less competition.
And I'll be honest...the card components here do nothing for me. It all looks like stuff that most people will replace with Litko acrylic if they really start playing the game.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: And I wasn't talking about Salute. I was referring to American players who saw the models among their gaming group. In America. Oh, wait, sarcastic ellipses are need...
Naturally those that are part of the design team have gotten early models to work with, and some of our design team is based is based in the US. The comments you're referring to were from someone who is a friend of one of the team that has seen those models.
Besides team members personally showing models to people on occasion and Salute, that's really the entirety of it. However, I do understand with the internet when a few different people are commenting about how they saw the models it can feel like there is some kind of 'in' club that you're not part of, even when that's not really the case at all.
As an answer to bob's post, for me it's all about the miniature design. There has been a lot (too much imo) of talk about how technically complex the sprues are, and how well the minis go together... and honestly I don't care. First and foremost I want the miniatures to look amazing, no matter how they are produced. And they don't. I get a 90s feel from most of the ME minis, in terms of design sensibilities, sculpt detail, posing etc. The golden standard for me when it comes to plastic is stuff like GW or Kingdom Death, and ME isn't even close to being in the same ballpark as those. It's a whole different league, no matter how many sliding moulds have been used. The rules sound very cool, the fluff interesting, but none of that matters if I don't like the models. That's the sad truth of it in my case.
I also agree that the KS has been underwhelming in terms of reveals and future possibilities for the game. It's so pragmatic that it's almost like your parents telling you "you can't do that, that's not how things work, temper your expectations, be realistic" etc etc. It's extremely well-managed, to the point of being dull.
Well, a bit of crossposting from the main thread, but here's my rundown on what I've seen.
Epirian Foundation:
The "default" sci-fi humans with robots and space soldiers. On one hand an overused trope, on the other hand a staple of the genre and you'd probably produce a whole the faction lineup if you don't include something like that. When I first saw the Contractors and the small drones my first reaction was "meh", but with the scarecrows and hunters you've added some nice models and truth be told I am a sucker for this type of army stuff.
Nice, but as of yet a bit generic. Considering the aimed scope of the game you probably do not want to include tanks or any larger vehicles, so to make this faction more interesting they should get something else. Since from what little I've read of the fluff, you might want to exploit their widespread connections with different civilizations and bring in some alien specialists, mercenaries (interstellar corporation, got to have something for the dirty work) or maybe some sort of weaponized construction vehicle. I'm looking forward to try out some camo pattern or other on them, but otherwise I am more interested in which factions you plan on developing in the future.
Karist:
Our resident drugged-up mob of fanatics. The mix of stormtrooper aesthetics and nutjob ideology make these rather more interesting to me than the EF, but that's just personal personal taste so far. Their armor looks good albeit not really special. Well, that's not necessary since their flair comes in good part from the space-alien-thingies (and that damn OSL, need to learn to do that before i start working on those guys). The Angels are a very unconventional choice (to me at least). I mostly dig their design. Shapeless horrors from outer space are less overused than space-bugs but that flesh-backpack on the large angel looks very strange. I have the strong feeling it will get remodelled or greenstuffed by quite a lot of people.
I feel that a little mistake was made by giving the Karist that assasin type unit. I haven't read much of the fluff here either, but infiltration is not intuitively associated with big power-armored fanatics. It would have been a great area of occupation for another angel-type medium-sized (bigger than the flyers, smaller than the mature angel) alien unit. That ship's sailed, so I'd suggest some other angel that is less combat-oriented and more utility-type support unit. Something that gives advancing infantry some sort of fog to hide behind? A mind-controll bug that synchronizes a squad to inhuman levels? Dunno. Since the Karist seem to copy their tech from angel biology there might be something where it's just simpler to use an angel for instead of a technical solution.
I am looking forward to the remaining factions (though I fear it will be quite a while until they are unveiled). A general information here would be much appreciated, even if it's very vague. Say, something like: kind-of like big, orange furry creatures that have very strong arms and are good climbers and are kind of space librarians who try to save as many books and other storage media from the maelstorm. You get a raw idea of what type of aliens (or humans) you have and what their main goal is.
Kosake wrote: Say, something like: kind-of like big, orange furry creatures that have very strong arms and are good climbers and are kind of space librarians who try to save as many books and other storage media from the maelstorm. You get a raw idea of what type of aliens (or humans) you have and what their main goal is.
insaniak wrote: There's no big conspiracy here, unless everyone who went to Salute was in on it...
And I wasn't talking about Salute. I was referring to American players who saw the models among their gaming group. In America. Oh, wait, sarcastic ellipses are need...
Are you still harping on this? It's really not a big conspiracy! One of the guys in our game group did some work for Maelstrom's Edge and got several of the sprues in advance. He wasn't able to show us until they had already been revealed (due to NDA's) and he brought them to one of the gaming nights to show people. There were already four backers of the KS at this point and he wanted to show us what we were backing. I'm sorry you weren't invited, if you want to come visit the central coast of California, I'm sure we can arrange you seeing the sprues yourself.
insaniak wrote: There's no big conspiracy here, unless everyone who went to Salute was in on it...
And I wasn't talking about Salute. I was referring to American players who saw the models among their gaming group. In America. Oh, wait, sarcastic ellipses are need...
Are you still harping on this? It's really not a big conspiracy! One of the guys in our game group did some work for Maelstrom's Edge and got several of the sprues in advance. He wasn't able to show us until they had already been revealed (due to NDA's) and he brought them to one of the gaming nights to show people. There were already four backers of the KS at this point and he wanted to show us what we were backing. I'm sorry you weren't invited, if you want to come visit the central coast of California, I'm sure we can arrange you seeing the sprues yourself.
Cut the attitude. Read my post for context, but the fact that both you and Insaniak are referring to this issue as a "conspiracy" is ridiculous. There was a lot of negativity regarding the Empirians, and as has already been stated in this thread, there was lots of moderation of said criticism. Your posts and Grey Templar's posts about the sneak preview you both got were odd, especially considering how Grey Templar initially framed his change of heart regarding the sculpts. It stunk of some really lame viral marketing. You guys looked like shills for SAS.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: ... and as has already been stated in this thread, there was lots of moderation of said criticism.
Can you point to an example of this?
Because so far as I'm aware, there has been no moderation of criticism. The only moderation that has occured in the main MEdge thread has been to attempt to keep the thread on topic.
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DarkTraveler777 wrote: . It stunk of some really lame viral marketing. You guys looked like shills for SAS.
Hence the reference to a conspiracy.
Or is it only those with a negative opinion who are allowed to use hyperbole?
This, to be honest, is where a lot of the perceived problem is coming from. There's this small group of people who dislike aspects of the project who seem to take any disagreement with their opinion as censure, dismissal, or the work of paid shills, rather than as simply the presentation of a differing opinion.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, here's the thing. I want Medge to survive and prosper. I want to be able to read Medge novels while building Medge minis that I will never paint. I want people to have enthusiastic discussions about the Medge background and rules. I want a Medge HHHobby. I gather that's what the creators were aiming for, too.
There are quite a few points in your comments that are not quite accurate, or do not fully apply to Spiral Arm Studios. I'm replying 'off the record' but just wanted to address some of them in case others have similar concerns. I wont address everything though, but please dont take silence on points for confirmation, more that time is limited this week, so best to just point out the key ones.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The Kickstarter campaign doesn't seem to have lit the room on fire. This worries me because I'm afraid people who passed on the KS will have inertia against Medge when it comes out in retail. With only a few hundred backers worldwide, Medge will have a long uphill struggle to succeed based on local gaming clubs, word of mouth, and FLGS presence.
Getting people to start a new game is a big ask, which is why we are pushing with quality first and foremost, and a constant drive of fiction and hobby materials to slowly rope people in. The game is the key element, but Maelstrom's Edge as a whole consists of fiction, models, audiobooks, a card game and more. Each of those enhance growth in the others. The majority who have passed on the kickstarter have largely done so for anti-kickstarter reasons and most people start games by word of mouth rather than being exposed to it. Provided our backers are pleased with what they get, organic growth (which the business plan is based around) is well seeded, and with several hundred backers we are well seeded across a diverse geographic area instead of being locked into the areas which we could manually promote. It will take time and quality, but there is strong will from a large number of our backers for Maelstrom's Edge to thrive based on what they've seen so far, without even getting the game in hand - exactly what we were hoping for.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Meanwhile, it's clear that hundreds of thousands of dollars have been invested in the plastic tooling, the art, the game components, the fiction and the rules writing. If Medge is slow to earn that back, it will deter future expansion, which will give the game the stagnant feeling that can keep new players away. SAS already stated that the level of KS success will determine future retail pricing, box contents, and other stuff, which means we're looking at a more conservative retail release with likely less-attractive per-unit prices.
You worry too much here, the $20K funding point is all we needed to get us to launch, everything else gets pumped into future development and we have a deal in place for matching funds from investors which will allow us to continue pushing forwards without issue. While the kickstarter volume affects the price point via order volumes, it is a relatively small margin which can be buffered by a whole bunch of things, and price point is everything, so we'll be staying at or under the impulse purchase level for sure.
I suspect a good global campaign could draw in interest even from people who would prefer more elegant systems. I'll be blunt: this campaign feels like an attempt to capture that old 40k feeling from back when everyone loved 40k. Why was 40k so popular? Widespread participation (for many reasons). Why not have an Eye of Terror campaign that everyone can participate in? Give an invite to everyone who pledged for rules in one form or another, have some 'combat simulation' beta playtesting, and then begin the actual campaign so that the playtesters are rewarded with a chance to take part in something that will affect the greater Medge universe. If the results matter (even if they only affect one faction or one novel's story arc or one permanent character's bio), I bet it would bring a lot of enthusiasm to the rules and the fluff conjointly. I would like to see the rules, fluff and art for the other factions debuted for the campaign, even if it means those players have to proxy for those factions.
Global campaigns are an idea we've thrown around a lot, and we'll likely end up doing one or more given our initially distributed player base.
If everyone gets a terrain sprue in the package, why not have a contest? Make some base rules, such as a time limit of a week and a budget of $20, and see who can make the best terrain out of flower pots, fast food boxes, biscotti bins, CD spindles, etc. The winning terrain entries get to be used for the big action set pieces for a future novel or short story that will set the mood for another campaign... A Hobby for everyone.
Contests and similar model related promotional events are also planned for the future, but good suggestions, thanks
Medge has followed a very strict plan during the campaign. Unfortunately, it was missing the kind of pizzazz that makes for an event Kickstarter and the kind of selling that makes for a must-buy kickstarter. Mantic and CMON both have their own KS formulas, and I have no doubt that either of them could have taken the current Medge product, chaps and all, and made half a million with it. I've already posted some of my thoughts, and I've seen Buzzsaw comment on this, too. I would love to hear from the many people who are smarter and more experienced than I am. I would love to see Medge have a slick retail release that gets everyone's attention.
I'm sure they could have, and I'm sure that it would have been easy to break well into 6 figures if we'd had all the options, bells and whistles, but they would be much more harmful to the long term development and growth of Maelstrom's Edge. A really good one to look at is Home Raiders which is a solid game, and their KS plan has been pretty much bang on what you'd expect with community development, heavy advertising on many sites, add-on packages constantly being revealed, etc. The concept is good and original, the models decent but with them as for other new model companies, the kickstarter conversion rate is dramatically lower than it was even 6 months ago as delay after delay and crap release after crap release have put people off. We've certainly run a campaign that has not been overtly emotional, and we've not been throwing things in based on community response because everything is precisely costed out with plans that change based on backer numbers and the the cash flowing in. We are presenting stability, reliability (in the form of a real update every day, providing new content every single day), and we strongly believe that is the best way forwards for the long term, for solid retail relationships and for the smallest potential range of issues. You cant discount the kickstarter pedigree and huge existing KS audiences that CMON, mantic and others have and all the bonuses that come with it. There's no shortage of retailers who do not like backing those companies because they sell most of their stock to KS backers though. You can also count the very large number of sci-fi wargames which have failed over the years both on and off kickstarter, and compared to them, we are going strong and have a very strong background, model range (12 distinct plastic designs at launch), and supplementary range (terrain, card game, etc).
To answer the few people who have questioned why there has been no community model development, it is very straightforward:
1. Managing such development fails every time - there are always people who dislike things, and given the option to influence plastic sci-fi model design (a dream for so many of us on here), the aggressive vocalisation of opinions would demolish productivity and destroy morale. There are plenty who have been very vocal about their dislike of the contractors for instance, but they are already the 4th most popular sprue in the boxed set by voting demand. Everyone would want to create 'their' game and 'their' models and in such cases the loudest voices generally win by attrition. Community development would not be able to agree on model proportions let alone anything else.
2. There are many technical limitations when designing a model, including sprue space, mould draw angles and ease of ejection, target part count, width of parts, strength of parts, clutch of parts, number of models on each sprue, ease of assembly, posing flexibility, cross-range compatibility (including with future/unreleased models), fit to the rules, fit to the fiction, fit to the artwork, price of the sculpt, price of the mould, revision count of the sculpt, sculptor talent, target price of the model, weight of the sprue, potential rival models in the marketplace (past present and future), potential compatible models in the marketplace (past present and future), and many more things. A huge amount of those would be toxic to vocalise as well without having to make the entire business plan open to all eyes.
3. It takes around two years to create a plastic model, so designs that are passed around would be long forgotten and everyone would have moved on to the new hotness by the time something actually came out.
4. The appearance of models in real life is usually extremely different to how they are presented online. Short of 3D printing every sculpt and sending it round to everyone, there is no way for people to get a real feel for a model based on screen images alone. We go through dozens of prints for every model and every part internally as it is. People who give feedback based on images alone, generally create models which have notable production issues.
It would be insane to seek community feedback during the model development process as nobody would be happy!
DarkTraveler777 wrote: ... and as has already been stated in this thread, there was lots of moderation of said criticism.
Can you point to an example of this?
Because so far as I'm aware, there has been no moderation of criticism. The only moderation that has occured in the main MEdge thread has been to attempt to keep the thread on topic.
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DarkTraveler777 wrote: . It stunk of some really lame viral marketing. You guys looked like shills for SAS.
Hence the reference to a conspiracy.
Or is it only those with a negative opinion who are allowed to use hyperbole?
This, to be honest, is where a lot of the perceived problem is coming from. There's this small group of people who dislike aspects of the project who seem to take any disagreement with their opinion as censure, dismissal, or the work of paid shills, rather than as simply the presentation of a differing opinion.
Let me find the quote were Mods asked to step back from the main ME thread due to public perceptions of over-moderation. I know I just read that today.
Regarding the conspiracy claims, that is your word not mine. Labeling my observations as a conspiracy attempts to negate my claims and label me a lunatic. You even used that label before realizing what issue I was talking about, so really, who is creating a problem here?
In case you aren't familiar with the incident it occurs on pages 57 through 60 of the main thread, and my issue initially was with Grey Templar telling doubters of the Empirians to "stop" doubting because the copies he'd seen in person blew his mind. That is rather rude to post considering most people aren't going to benefit from seeing those figures in person during the Kickstarter, so not only was his point moot, it was condescending. That was my issue at the time.
The whole incident bothered me and smacked of some lame viral marketing to try and get people's opinions to change on the Empirians. Because the incident bothered me I referenced it in my post in this thread as to why I am not backing, and then I get you and Ozy up my keister with claims of conspiracy.
But go ahead, think that this is all just because you don't agree with me. Its a conspiracy, dude. I just don't have the words to express my frustration so I don tinfoil hats and poo-poo amazing projects just because. Sure.
The one misstep I think they did make was initially moderating the N&R thread too heavily (not deliberately I think, but since all the MODs wanted to see what was going on too much moderating got done), but that said those who were strongly negative were probably not going to buy in in a big way anyway, it just gave things a bit of an awkward look if the first day or two
There's always going to be heavier moderation in threads that have more moderators active in them, simply because it makes it more likely that said moderators will see the things that need moderating.
That being said, the reaction to the mod presence in the news thread was noted, and a deliberate effort was made for the mods to all step back a bit.
Oh, you said it Insaniak. Is this conspiracy on my part, or are you admitting here that moderation in the main ME thread was heavy and as a result the mods were asked to ease up? Why would there be a need to "step back a bit" on the moderation if it wasn't too heavy to begin with?
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Let me find the quote were Mods asked to step back from the main ME thread due to public perceptions of over-moderation. I know I just read that today.
You misunderstood. No, we didn't post a public announcement that the mods would spend less time in that thread... that would have just been an invitation for people to troll the thread.
But we did make a conscious decision for the mods to be slightly less involved in that thread, in order to try to lessen the perception that the thread was over-moderated, which was caused in large part simply by the participation of so many moderators in the thread.
Regarding the conspiracy claims, that is your word not mine. Labeling my observations as a conspiracy attempts to negate my claims and label me a lunatic. You even used that label before realizing what issue I was talking about, so really, who is creating a problem here?
You were complaining that people were being seen as shills due to their praising models after having seen them at some secret event that nobody else was invited to. I'm not really sure how else you were expecting a comment like that to be perceived.
Oh, you said it Insaniak. Is this conspiracy on my part, or are you admitting here that moderation in the main ME thread was heavy and as a result the mods were asked to ease up? Why would there be a need to "step back a bit" on the moderation if it wasn't too heavy to begin with?
Here's the thing - Moderation of threads on Dakka is a result of one of two things - either a report is made by a poster or posters through the Mod Alert button, or a mod who happens to be reading a thread notices a problem in that thread and sorts it out.
When more mods are reading a given thread, potential issues are more likely to be seen quickly. Threads that veer wildly off-topic, or that descend into horribleness are generally those that have less moderator involvement... basically because we don't know there's a problem straight away, and so things have more time in which to slide before the issue gets seen to. If we're right there in the thread as stuff occurs, it gets stomped on more quickly.
What happened in the MEdge thread was simply that most of Dakka's mods were avidly following the thread, because we're all rather interested in this particular project. As a result, any sign that the thread was going to wander off-topic was noticed quite quickly, with mods jumping in to keep things on track.
This is no different to what would happen in any other thread on Dakka that had a similar level of involvement from the mod team... but because of the specific nature of this thread, people complained about us being biased and trying to overly moderate it. And so we backed off, and tried to let the thread run its course more organically.
So it's not so much that moderation was too heavy to begin with... but simply that it was perceived as being more heavily moderated than it should have been.
insaniak wrote: There's no big conspiracy here, unless everyone who went to Salute was in on it...
And I wasn't talking about Salute. I was referring to American players who saw the models among their gaming group. In America. Oh, wait, sarcastic ellipses are need...
Are you still harping on this? It's really not a big conspiracy! One of the guys in our game group did some work for Maelstrom's Edge and got several of the sprues in advance. He wasn't able to show us until they had already been revealed (due to NDA's) and he brought them to one of the gaming nights to show people. There were already four backers of the KS at this point and he wanted to show us what we were backing. I'm sorry you weren't invited, if you want to come visit the central coast of California, I'm sure we can arrange you seeing the sprues yourself.
Near Santa Cruz? I may take you up on that in a few weeks.
First, a quick change to the Contractor's kneepads.
Spoiler:
Second, an Epirian soldier in a space activity suit - the kind of spacesuit that uses mechanical pressure rather than air pressure to avoid the space hickey problem.
I agree somewhat with Darktraveller777, that the way i perceive the Medge thread(s) , is that those who work on the medge project somewhat dismiss critique, and some people who work on the project are slightly over excited in their praise, which i can understand, it is their baby afterall.
But reading so many kickstarter threads where every facet of other campaigns were picked apart and issues were addressed by the creators (or not )
I find that the medge interaction with the dakka community illusionary, critiques are ignored, dismissed or belittled.
Critique is not all negative, most dakkites want Medge to succeed. If it is ok that GW gets heavily critiqued as have been other companies and kickstarters then medge should be no different.
I find that the medge interaction with the dakka community illusionary, critiques are ignored, dismissed or belittled.
I don't think that's at all fair to the SAS team, frankly, as they've spent an awful lot of time responding to feedback over the course of this kickstarter.
Not agreeing with an opinion is not the same as dismissing it.
First, a quick change to the Contractor's kneepads.
Spoiler:
Haha you didn't have to actually change it mate, it was just one random bloke on the internet making a comment. I do prefer them this way though.
AlexHolker wrote: Second, an Epirian soldier in a space activity suit - the kind of spacesuit that uses mechanical pressure rather than air pressure to avoid the space hickey problem.
Spoiler:
I don't mind it, except a few things seem...pointless almost? I mean, I know it'd look boring, but aren't you better off having shoulder pads and knee pads and stuff under the suit, or a part of it, rather than bolted on/strapped on the outside? Is it to keep similarities between the two sketches? I dunno why they'd have extra gubbinz hanging off a suit that you don't really want catching on anything as you bounce around the void.
Although keep in mind that if you're mirroring already released MEdge artwork with this I'm not going to be making any sense, but that's because I haven't been keeping up with the artwork released so much as the fiction (since I enjoy the fiction more) ha.
edit: sorry, I just realised it might seem like I'm just picking on your images or something, I'm not wanting it to come off like that, they're just interesting and there to comment on, and I figured they wouldn't be up here if you didn't want comments.
As regards community involvement, several core members of Spiral Arm have written a number of detailed posts engaging with criticism of the rules, figures and fluff.
AlexHolker wrote: Second, an Epirian soldier in a space activity suit - the kind of spacesuit that uses mechanical pressure rather than air pressure to avoid the space hickey problem.
Spoiler:
I don't mind it, except a few things seem...pointless almost? I mean, I know it'd look boring, but aren't you better off having shoulder pads and knee pads and stuff under the suit, or a part of it, rather than bolted on/strapped on the outside? Is it to keep similarities between the two sketches? I dunno why they'd have extra gubbinz hanging off a suit that you don't really want catching on anything as you bounce around the void.
Since the pressure suit and the other stuff is going to have conflicting requirements, I thought that treating them as separate garments seemed the most practical way of doing it. A mechanical pressure suit allows more mobility than wearing what is basically an inflated balloon like a regular spacesuit, but it has to conform more closely to the body and has a particular "grain" to it, so being able to put it on first without a great big slab of ballistic vest getting in the way couldn't hurt.
As for bouncing around, the idea wasn't really for this to be used in microgravity, just in environments lacking a habitable atmosphere. Mars, for instance, has 3/8ths the gravity of Earth but less than 1/100th the atmospheric pressure.
Although keep in mind that if you're mirroring already released MEdge artwork with this I'm not going to be making any sense, but that's because I haven't been keeping up with the artwork released so much as the fiction (since I enjoy the fiction more) ha.
This artwork is only based on the male Epirian Contractors. If there is any official concept art for female or full-time Epirian soldiers, I haven't seen it.
edit: sorry, I just realised it might seem like I'm just picking on your images or something, I'm not wanting it to come off like that, they're just interesting and there to comment on, and I figured they wouldn't be up here if you didn't want comments.
No, I'm happy to hear people's thoughts about it. You had a good point about the knee pads that didn't contradict my core goals, so it's already been helpful.
Ah right, I was thinking of the space station "miners" and stuff from the first book (still haven't reached the second, damn uni), they are moving around quite a lot in their work, and since these guys are them after having been pressed into service (basically), I guess that's where I got tripped up.
As what is basically used as an environmental suit, yeah I like it a lot more. The pads on the outside then will actually be good, it'll stop you nicking your suit's shoulder, which would be harder to see in the helmet/is just an awkwardish part of the body I imagine in an environment like that with slightly limited gravity and hazardous atmosphere/lack thereof. I like it a lot more now with the explanation, cheers.
I find that the medge interaction with the dakka community illusionary, critiques are ignored, dismissed or belittled.
I don't think that's at all fair to the SAS team, frankly, as they've spent an awful lot of time responding to feedback over the course of this kickstarter.
Not agreeing with an opinion is not the same as dismissing it.
You are right i was over reacting a bit. maybe because my points on some of the models were ignored
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Let me find the quote were Mods asked to step back from the main ME thread due to public perceptions of over-moderation. I know I just read that today.
You misunderstood. No, we didn't post a public announcement that the mods would spend less time in that thread... that would have just been an invitation for people to troll the thread.
But we did make a conscious decision for the mods to be slightly less involved in that thread, in order to try to lessen the perception that the thread was over-moderated, which was caused in large part simply by the participation of so many moderators in the thread.
Regarding the conspiracy claims, that is your word not mine. Labeling my observations as a conspiracy attempts to negate my claims and label me a lunatic. You even used that label before realizing what issue I was talking about, so really, who is creating a problem here?
You were complaining that people were being seen as shills due to their praising models after having seen them at some secret event that nobody else was invited to. I'm not really sure how else you were expecting a comment like that to be perceived.
Oh, you said it Insaniak. Is this conspiracy on my part, or are you admitting here that moderation in the main ME thread was heavy and as a result the mods were asked to ease up? Why would there be a need to "step back a bit" on the moderation if it wasn't too heavy to begin with?
This is no different to what would happen in any other thread on Dakka that had a similar level of involvement from the mod team... but because of the specific nature of this thread, people complained about us being biased and trying to overly moderate it. And so we backed off, and tried to let the thread run its course more organically.
So it's not so much that moderation was too heavy to begin with... but simply that it was perceived as being more heavily moderated than it should have been.
Kilkrazy wrote:As regards community involvement, several core members of Spiral Arm have written a number of detailed posts engaging with criticism of the rules, figures and fluff.
As a new user to Dakka, this thread is really putting me off of the community which I'd heard a lot of great things about. In just this very thread, we have normal users who are critiquing something and then every single rebuttal comes from someone with the [MOD] tag. Just on this very page, there are 3 mods! That's not the problem, but them calling normal users conspiracy theorists really doesn't come across well.
I think MEdge looks okay, sort of generic but with a little potential, but it makes me hardly want to post anything even constructive for the game now.
legoburner wrote: The majority who have passed on the kickstarter have largely done so for anti-kickstarter reasons and most people start games by word of mouth rather than being exposed to it.
With all due respect, is the bolded part above based on anecdotal observations or on a poll where respondents can choose one or more answers?
legoburner wrote: The majority who have passed on the kickstarter have largely done so for anti-kickstarter reasons and most people start games by word of mouth rather than being exposed to it.
With all due respect, is the bolded part above based on anecdotal observations or on a poll where respondents can choose one or more answers?
Yeah, I was going to call out that quote myself, but I didn't. It's a bunch of nonsenes. "Anti-KS" reasons? Come on now....Really?
I'm not a big fan of KS either, this is my first one. My desire to support Dakka is really what pushed me into doing it (though I very much like the mini's, I've passed on other KS with great mini's because I wasn't sure how things would pan out in the long run).
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Let me find the quote were Mods asked to step back from the main ME thread due to public perceptions of over-moderation. I know I just read that today.
You misunderstood. No, we didn't post a public announcement that the mods would spend less time in that thread... that would have just been an invitation for people to troll the thread.
But we did make a conscious decision for the mods to be slightly less involved in that thread, in order to try to lessen the perception that the thread was over-moderated, which was caused in large part simply by the participation of so many moderators in the thread.
Regarding the conspiracy claims, that is your word not mine. Labeling my observations as a conspiracy attempts to negate my claims and label me a lunatic. You even used that label before realizing what issue I was talking about, so really, who is creating a problem here?
You were complaining that people were being seen as shills due to their praising models after having seen them at some secret event that nobody else was invited to. I'm not really sure how else you were expecting a comment like that to be perceived.
Oh, you said it Insaniak. Is this conspiracy on my part, or are you admitting here that moderation in the main ME thread was heavy and as a result the mods were asked to ease up? Why would there be a need to "step back a bit" on the moderation if it wasn't too heavy to begin with?
This is no different to what would happen in any other thread on Dakka that had a similar level of involvement from the mod team... but because of the specific nature of this thread, people complained about us being biased and trying to overly moderate it. And so we backed off, and tried to let the thread run its course more organically.
So it's not so much that moderation was too heavy to begin with... but simply that it was perceived as being more heavily moderated than it should have been.
Kilkrazy wrote:As regards community involvement, several core members of Spiral Arm have written a number of detailed posts engaging with criticism of the rules, figures and fluff.
As a new user to Dakka, this thread is really putting me off of the community which I'd heard a lot of great things about. In just this very thread, we have normal users who are critiquing something and then every single rebuttal comes from someone with the [MOD] tag. Just on this very page, there are 3 mods! That's not the problem, but them calling normal users conspiracy theorists really doesn't come across well.
I think MEdge looks okay, sort of generic but with a little potential, but it makes me hardly want to post anything even constructive for the game now.
I can't help having a MOD tag, I am a moderator. That should not obscure the fact that if you post criticisms for the game, the chances are the creators will answer you with a detailed response.
OTOH there is no compulsion on you to contribute if you don't want to.
Quintinus wrote: As a new user to Dakka, this thread is really putting me off of the community which I'd heard a lot of great things about. In just this very thread, we have normal users who are critiquing something and then every single rebuttal comes from someone with the [MOD] tag. Just on this very page, there are 3 mods!
You'll get that quite a bit on Dakka, as most of the mods are fairly active posters. So particularly when something crosses the interest radar of multiple mods, it's not at all unusual for a few mods to all be participating in the same discussion... and pretty much all of Dakka's mod team are interested in MEdge, so a lot of us have been discussing it.
Outside of actual moderation, the opinions of moderators shouldn't be treated any differently to any other poster... we're just hobbyists like everyone else. None of the mods are part of the SAS design team, or speak in any official capacity for them.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: 1. The box doesn't have enough plastic in it. One poster pointed out that plastic minis only do well in Kickstarters if they are sold by the bucket or if they are amazing sculpts. The consensus is that Medge's sculpts are "pretty good" with a few exceptions depending on the beholder, so they can't use the Kingdom Death/WWX/Wyrd approach. That leaves the Mantic "quantity is a quality that's ...better than our quality" approach. People have stated that they would buy Medge minis if they had enough to use in other games (i.e. more than 5 troopers per type) in case they don't like Medge's rules. So, if it is at all possible, more plastic in the box, or better yet as add-ons, could make the game more attractive. A bulk deal for the terrain sprues would not go amiss since every discussion about them ends up with a backer asking how many one should buy.
Unfortunately, this is more a problem with Kickstarter and how people have come to perceive it as a result of past projects, than it is a problem with MEdge.
Without getting into semantics, let me just say that the backers aren't the ones asking for money. In fact, as a backer I'm pretty happy with the state of affairs that encourages the people I 'pre-order' with to give me more stuff if I'm going to have to wait. But I see your point and do feel bad for the little guys who can't 'play the game'.
Too many projects have gone for the 'cram everything they can find into the box' approach to entice people to get onboard, and as a result, people have come to expect that in every project... if you don't have more minis that you can fit in a minivan, and a new stretch goal adding more minis every time someone refreshes the page, then you're not 'good value'...
The weird thing is that this attitude persists despite so many of the projects that tried that approach winding up delaying fulfillment by years[i], or just running out of money because the end result simply wasn't profitable or wound up actually costing them money... which is more or less the exact [i]opposite of what Kickstarter is supposed to be for.
SAS went for a more measured approach precisely because they want this game to be an on-going affair. So yes, there's less bonus stuff to set the world on fire. But what that actually means is that what's in the box is the stuff that SAS are certain that they can actually provide at that price, within the specified timeframe. So the draw for this kickstarter isn't 'bucketloads of free stuff'... it's 'a functional game, that can conceivably be delivered when the developer said it would be'... because so many of them simply aren't.
That's a draw for the game. For a kickstarter, apparently it's not? Hopefully the retail release will show us the difference.
3. The fluff. It is difficult to translate a Man Vs Nature setting into a Man Vs Man wargame.
I really don't see this. 'Crappy catastrophe is happening... people act crappy as a result'. It's the perfect setting for a wargame.
You're right... it's not going to appeal to everyone. That's never going to be a designer's goal, though, because it's impossible.
Feedback on the setting has, from what I've seen, been largely positive. As in, really positive. People are excited about all of the possibilities inherent in it. And that's exactly what you want from a game setting.
Don't get me wrong. I love the setting and want to read novels set in it. Lots of novels. The complaints are more along the lines of "this enjoyable setting doesn't make me want to take out little soldiers and shoot stuff." I feel like the more inter-faction interactions and dynamics we see, the more people will settle in for the gaming side of the fluff. Some of what I said appears to have been addressed since the last time I had seen the main page, anyway. However, I'm still hearing from people with reservations about the setting, so I can only attribute that perception to "first impressions matter". The first impression many people had was the setting was very deep on the maelstrom and very shallow on the kinds of conflicts that would occur between the various groups, excluding simple claim-jumper skirmishes.
Someone said he changed his mind about the setting when he was able to read later descriptions that made him think of the old west.
4. The community. When I heard that Dakka was making a game, the potential community involvement was the first thing that excited me. However, the threads have turned this into Medge's great weakness. People who are far less abrasive than I am have complained that they don't feel safe posting in Medge threads. They are still saying that. The community has absolutely not been welcoming. Yes, there is a lot of criticism, but that just means people care enough to comment in the first place. I don't even know what to say about this problem except that you can't expect Dakka to engage with your game if you won't engage with Dakka.
So - you want the people behind the game to 'engage' with 'Dakka'... but you want them to be more hands off, so that people feel 'safe' to post their opinions?
I don't believe those are the only two options, or that they need to be completely binary. Besides, the perception and the first impressions matter. The thread feels oppressive to some posters even if it no longer actually is. Some strong lines had already been drawn by the end of the first week and many casuals had already written ME off.
I'm not sure you can have both.
There has been plenty of open discussion, from a community that (by and large) has been extremely welcoming. As far as I can recall, not one post has been removed from the News thread. Nor have any warnings been issued to anyone, other than general in-thread notes to get back on-topic. A whole bunch of moderators have posted in the discussion... because they're excited about the project, and it's something that they want to talk about.
If people are feeling 'stifled' as a result, then I would wonder if perhaps the issue might be more with their preferred way of presenting their opinion, rather than with the actual opinion itself. Ultimately, the same rules apply to MEdge threads as apply to any other part of the site. Opinions are welcome, and a lot of posters have managed to present theirs (positive and negative) without being whisked away in black cars in the dead of night.
You can immediately tell that the ME thread is not like other kickstarter threads. Doesn't really matter why any more. Besides, even heavy moderation here is a light tickle compared to some other forums, so it will always be a relative term without resorting to secret police references and what not.
There is also the underlying fear that a poster will accidentally offend someone of prestige on the site, whether they are afraid of retaliation or just don't want to hurt someone's feelings, which stifles more comments than any active moderation ever could.
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There is also the underlying fear that a poster will accidentally offend someone of prestige on the site, whether they are afraid of retaliation or just don't want to hurt someone's feelings, which stifles more comments than any active moderation ever could.
.
That's a really interesting comment. Hadn't considered it before, but it's pretty interesting.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, here's the thing. I want Medge to survive and prosper. I want to be able to read Medge novels while building Medge minis that I will never paint. I want people to have enthusiastic discussions about the Medge background and rules. I want a Medge HHHobby. I gather that's what the creators were aiming for, too.
There are quite a few points in your comments that are not quite accurate, or do not fully apply to Spiral Arm Studios. I'm replying 'off the record' but just wanted to address some of them in case others have similar concerns. I wont address everything though, but please dont take silence on points for confirmation, more that time is limited this week, so best to just point out the key ones.
Thank you for addressing what you can. I admit that I have rested a lot of my observations on first impressions and earlier iterations of the site. I feel that is fair, though, as most backers tend to look at a project once and decide if they will back or not, only coming back for a second look on the last day if they ever give it a second glance at all.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The Kickstarter campaign doesn't seem to have lit the room on fire. This worries me because I'm afraid people who passed on the KS will have inertia against Medge when it comes out in retail. With only a few hundred backers worldwide, Medge will have a long uphill struggle to succeed based on local gaming clubs, word of mouth, and FLGS presence.
Getting people to start a new game is a big ask, which is why we are pushing with quality first and foremost, and a constant drive of fiction and hobby materials to slowly rope people in. The game is the key element, but Maelstrom's Edge as a whole consists of fiction, models, audiobooks, a card game and more. Each of those enhance growth in the others. The majority who have passed on the kickstarter have largely done so for anti-kickstarter reasons and most people start games by word of mouth rather than being exposed to it. Provided our backers are pleased with what they get, organic growth (which the business plan is based around) is well seeded, and with several hundred backers we are well seeded across a diverse geographic area instead of being locked into the areas which we could manually promote. It will take time and quality, but there is strong will from a large number of our backers for Maelstrom's Edge to thrive based on what they've seen so far, without even getting the game in hand - exactly what we were hoping for.
I hope you are right about why people are not backing. From what I have heard here and elsewhere, that is not the conclusion I have drawn, but you have access to more information that I do so I will defer to you.
I feel the holistic approach you are taking to the game/hobby is the real strength of ME, so I agree that word of mouth should be good, and there are more gateways for nongamers to ME than any other non-GW wargame. Hope it brings success.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Meanwhile, it's clear that hundreds of thousands of dollars have been invested in the plastic tooling, the art, the game components, the fiction and the rules writing. If Medge is slow to earn that back, it will deter future expansion, which will give the game the stagnant feeling that can keep new players away. SAS already stated that the level of KS success will determine future retail pricing, box contents, and other stuff, which means we're looking at a more conservative retail release with likely less-attractive per-unit prices.
You worry too much here, the $20K funding point is all we needed to get us to launch, everything else gets pumped into future development and we have a deal in place for matching funds from investors which will allow us to continue pushing forwards without issue. While the kickstarter volume affects the price point via order volumes, it is a relatively small margin which can be buffered by a whole bunch of things, and price point is everything, so we'll be staying at or under the impulse purchase level for sure.
I suspect a good global campaign could draw in interest even from people who would prefer more elegant systems. I'll be blunt: this campaign feels like an attempt to capture that old 40k feeling from back when everyone loved 40k. Why was 40k so popular? Widespread participation (for many reasons). Why not have an Eye of Terror campaign that everyone can participate in? Give an invite to everyone who pledged for rules in one form or another, have some 'combat simulation' beta playtesting, and then begin the actual campaign so that the playtesters are rewarded with a chance to take part in something that will affect the greater Medge universe. If the results matter (even if they only affect one faction or one novel's story arc or one permanent character's bio), I bet it would bring a lot of enthusiasm to the rules and the fluff conjointly. I would like to see the rules, fluff and art for the other factions debuted for the campaign, even if it means those players have to proxy for those factions.
Global campaigns are an idea we've thrown around a lot, and we'll likely end up doing one or more given our initially distributed player base.
Will these be done with the involvement of FLGSs and clubs?
If everyone gets a terrain sprue in the package, why not have a contest? Make some base rules, such as a time limit of a week and a budget of $20, and see who can make the best terrain out of flower pots, fast food boxes, biscotti bins, CD spindles, etc. The winning terrain entries get to be used for the big action set pieces for a future novel or short story that will set the mood for another campaign... A Hobby for everyone.
Contests and similar model related promotional events are also planned for the future, but good suggestions, thanks
Medge has followed a very strict plan during the campaign. Unfortunately, it was missing the kind of pizzazz that makes for an event Kickstarter and the kind of selling that makes for a must-buy kickstarter. Mantic and CMON both have their own KS formulas, and I have no doubt that either of them could have taken the current Medge product, chaps and all, and made half a million with it. I've already posted some of my thoughts, and I've seen Buzzsaw comment on this, too. I would love to hear from the many people who are smarter and more experienced than I am. I would love to see Medge have a slick retail release that gets everyone's attention.
I'm sure they could have, and I'm sure that it would have been easy to break well into 6 figures if we'd had all the options, bells and whistles, but they would be much more harmful to the long term development and growth of Maelstrom's Edge. A really good one to look at is Home Raiders which is a solid game, and their KS plan has been pretty much bang on what you'd expect with community development, heavy advertising on many sites, add-on packages constantly being revealed, etc. The concept is good and original, the models decent but with them as for other new model companies, the kickstarter conversion rate is dramatically lower than it was even 6 months ago as delay after delay and crap release after crap release have put people off.
Or people simply don't have much money left after investing in other kickstarters.
We've certainly run a campaign that has not been overtly emotional, and we've not been throwing things in based on community response because everything is precisely costed out with plans that change based on backer numbers and the the cash flowing in. We are presenting stability, reliability (in the form of a real update every day, providing new content every single day), and we strongly believe that is the best way forwards for the long term, for solid retail relationships and for the smallest potential range of issues. You cant discount the kickstarter pedigree and huge existing KS audiences that CMON, mantic and others have and all the bonuses that come with it. There's no shortage of retailers who do not like backing those companies because they sell most of their stock to KS backers though. You can also count the very large number of sci-fi wargames which have failed over the years both on and off kickstarter, and compared to them, we are going strong and have a very strong background, model range (12 distinct plastic designs at launch), and supplementary range (terrain, card game, etc).
Without a lot of those numbers you have, I have to rely on the numbers and data I see. What I see does not make it look like you are going strong compared to them. That is why I was worried and urged you for action.
To answer the few people who have questioned why there has been no community model development, it is very straightforward:
1. Managing such development fails every time - there are always people who dislike things, and given the option to influence plastic sci-fi model design (a dream for so many of us on here), the aggressive vocalisation of opinions would demolish productivity and destroy morale. There are plenty who have been very vocal about their dislike of the contractors for instance, but they are already the 4th most popular sprue in the boxed set by voting demand
I suspect that is partly because people want to have more minis they can proxy in other games and partly because people love fething with internet polls. Just ask Shieldwolf.
Let me ask you straight-up, completely honestly: do you really not see the quality difference between the contractor sculpts and all the other sculpts? Are you really not sure why those minis are drawing so much criticism?
(For the record, I'll use and love my Epirians just like I use my Basilean Men-at-arms. They have great torsos and weapons; if their arms or heads don't work in real life (and they might, which would be gravy), I have more than enough spare bits to promote them all from Epirian Contractors to Epirian Full Time Employees. But I also see and understand why someone who wouldn't waste his time with Basileans won't want any Epirians.)
. Everyone would want to create 'their' game and 'their' models and in such cases the loudest voices generally win by attrition. Community development would not be able to agree on model proportions let alone anything else.
Dreamforge has found a way to take feedback without surrendering the entire process. When preparing the female tank hunters, Mark gave people options and asked them to discuss it and vote on it. He has also taken some feedback on other minis.
Keep in mind that most backers are psychologically primed to see campaigns as products in the works rather than fait accompli. It is natural to warn a developper about mistakes in his products before it is too late, which is why KSs are so full of mini nitpicking and wishlisting. People also want to make sure your upcoming products will be at least as good, if not better, than your current products, which requires feedback.
Taking the crowd involvement out of a crowdfunding venture seems to have affecting the funding aspect as well.
We can all agree that the Hansa Nairoba technique is not satisfying for anyone, but on the other hand it would have been nice to know that people found the Epirians "all Morleyed up" before paying for final tooling, right?
2. There are many technical limitations when designing a model, including sprue space, mould draw angles and ease of ejection, target part count, width of parts, strength of parts, clutch of parts, number of models on each sprue, ease of assembly, posing flexibility, cross-range compatibility (including with future/unreleased models), fit to the rules, fit to the fiction, fit to the artwork, price of the sculpt, price of the mould, revision count of the sculpt, sculptor talent, target price of the model, weight of the sprue, potential rival models in the marketplace (past present and future), potential compatible models in the marketplace (past present and future), and many more things. A huge amount of those would be toxic to vocalise as well without having to make the entire business plan open to all eyes.
Not necessarily what I meant. It could be as simple as showing a nonfinal print or render just in case it, say, didn't have upper arms or had some other crucial flaw.
3. It takes around two years to create a plastic model, so designs that are passed around would be long forgotten and everyone would have moved on to the new hotness by the time something actually came out.
This is a good point. Definitely don't show us everything years in advance. But on the other hand, show some people you trust who didn't start gaming with GW in the 90's.
Besides, the design art for the Epirians is brilliant and slick. The minis have problems that almost everyone recognizes, even if they seem beloved to some. Even Old Nagash had his fans.
4. The appearance of models in real life is usually extremely different to how they are presented online. Short of 3D printing every sculpt and sending it round to everyone, there is no way for people to get a real feel for a model based on screen images alone. We go through dozens of prints for every model and every part internally as it is. People who give feedback based on images alone, generally create models which have notable production issues.
It would be insane to seek community feedback during the model development process as nobody would be happy!
This does not seem to be the case. There are many gaming companies out there who show early greens and renders online without earning the derision the Epirians have.
There is a middle ground between showing us nothing at all and giving us the keys.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: As regards community involvement, several core members of Spiral Arm have written a number of detailed posts engaging with criticism of the rules, figures and fluff.
And we love them for it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EarloftheNorth wrote: Well I'm one of those anti-KS and its true for me at least, I don't back KS......I back finished products.
This is a finished product. They just haven't shown us all the pieces yet.
This, to be honest, is where a lot of the perceived problem is coming from. There's this small group of people who dislike aspects of the project who seem to take any disagreement with their opinion as censure, dismissal, or the work of paid shills, rather than as simply the presentation of a differing opinion.
I don't think that this is the problem. A few "malcontents" in the ME threads can't be blamed for the project being at $41k with only 6 days to go, which can't be what was envisioned by the creators. There are clearly some reasons why this project hasn't set the world on fire.
Clearly there are people like Bob and Doug posting here who quite obviously care a lot about this project are trying to figure out what they are with the best of intentions. Cincy has simply posted some matter-of-fact points about ME vs DV. I'm sure I've missed others. But even if the people posting in this manner were writing the most vile just under the radar of bannage kind of things about this project and actively trying to convince others not to buy in (which they obviously are not - and I wouldn't say that anyone here is doing that) it still doesn't account for the current state of the campaign with its 498 backers worldwide, which obviously would include the entire moderation team here with "proper" pledges as well as 48 people with $1 pledges and 39 others with "just the rules" $10 pledges.
Nope, there's a problem. And it's clearly far bigger than half a dozen posters in one thread on Dakka.
The problem? KS fatigue and probably the imenent release of the next zombiecide KS is drawing many people away from a relatively unknown group on their first outing.
I have followed this project with great interest from the start, but at no point have been interested enough to want to back the Kickstarter.
The main issue for me? The miniatures. I just do not like the designs or executions. The miniatures may well be plastic and on well designed sprues but to me they just look old fashioned and about 15 years out of date. At a time when competing with the likes of Wyrd, Dreamforge Games and GW these miniatures just do not measure up, again YMMV. That may well change given time, but for now SAS are a long way away from getting my hobby £.
KS Fatigue in general, I can see. Zombicide specifically... not so much. A lot of us like Zombicide, and it's done well as a "crossover" product between "proper" miniatures gamers and "boardgamers", but the end dates of the two are going to be almost a month apart. (3 weeks, at least).
I think the main issues are with the miniatures. It's been discussed more than once in the thread here - I've bought plenty of figures that I didn't "need to see in the flesh to properly appreciate". Because they look great in photos as well as in-hand. I have to agree with DT here in that "hy guys, stop doubting" doesn't come across well. The second big thing there is that without going the whole hog into "quantity has a quality all it's own", there aren't enough contractors or of either type of Karist to make a full squad of 10 to use in other games if you don't end up spending most of your time playing ME, or if the game doesn't work out for you.
Not having enough figures to make a (let's not beat around the bush) 40k squad of IG or Inquisition Troopers or whatever means the ME box loses a lot in terms of "safety". The "back-up plan" for figures that a lot of us Mini gamers have in the back of our minds for new purchases just isn't there. "At least if I never play this game I get two/three squads I can use in 40k".
The third, less important but-related issue is the stated "we are not proxy-friendly" comments by the ME team. Why do I personally play KoW? Because I can easily use my old WHFB figures. Why has KoW started to gain traction? Good rules, plus the proxy-friendly nature. Do I mostly use Mantic figures? Of course not! But I have bought several large armies worth of their models, including at retail. Would that have become a thing without them being proxy-friendly? No way.
This, to be honest, is where a lot of the perceived problem is coming from. There's this small group of people who dislike aspects of the project who seem to take any disagreement with their opinion as censure, dismissal, or the work of paid shills, rather than as simply the presentation of a differing opinion.
I don't think that this is the problem. A few "malcontents" in the ME threads can't be blamed for the project being at $41k with only 6 days to go, which can't be what was envisioned by the creators. There are clearly some reasons why this project hasn't set the world on fire..
That wasn't the 'problem' I was referring to. That comment was in reference to the alleged 'dismissive' attitude from SAS.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Let me ask you straight-up, completely honestly: do you really not see the quality difference between the contractor sculpts and all the other sculpts? Are you really not sure why those minis are drawing so much criticism?
I suspect that, given that they've been fairly active in the threads, SAS are quite aware of why those minis are drawing criticism. But that criticism has been far from universal, and the contractors are in equal 3rd place with the scarecrow in the 'extra sprue' poll on the Kickstarter.
Keep in mind that most backers are psychologically primed to see campaigns as products in the works rather than fait accompli.
I don't think that's entirely true. I've seen any number of miniatures-related projects on Kickstarter that have had finished miniatures just waiting to be cast, that have managed to go through the process without complaints from backers about being 'left out' of the design process. For some reason, some people have just taken it amiss in this particular case...
That wasn't the 'problem' I was referring to. That comment was in reference to the alleged 'dismissive' attitude from SAS.
Fair enough.
I suspect that, given that they've been fairly active in the threads, SAS are quite aware of why those minis are drawing criticism. But that criticism has been far from universal, and the contractors are in equal 3rd place with the scarecrow in the 'extra sprue' poll on the Kickstarter.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/09/counterintuitive-world Might I suggest that the people not backing because they view the contractors as bad models are the areas on the plane where there are no bullet holes. They are absent from the campaign, so they are obviously not wanting to buy more contractors - nor are they voting in polls on the KS page to encourage the addition of more contactors. The 400-ish people who have backed (not counting, say a conservative 10-20 slots for mods and SAS staff/family/friends - or the $1/$10 pledges) are your "bullet holes". But there are only 400 or so of them. They're a self-selecting group who like what has been presented to them and want more of that.
Obviously we can't exactly quantify the number of people who might have backed if they liked the contractors (or flying fish), but I'd suggest that the amount of criticism those models have drawn (as opposed to, say, the Karists) shouldn't simply be disregarded because a poll that says the people who already think they are ok-to-good want more of them. Because 400 people is a tiny number of backers, given the work, effort and investment that has clearly gone into this project. Even moreso given the goodwill that Dakka should generate, and the banner ads and people here's stated buying habits.
Azazelx wrote: Not having enough figures to make a (let's not beat around the bush) 40k squad of IG or Inquisition Troopers or whatever means the ME box loses a lot in terms of "safety". The "back-up plan" for figures that a lot of us Mini gamers have in the back of our minds for new purchases just isn't there. "At least if I never play this game I get two/three squads I can use in 40k".
The third, less important but-related issue is the stated "we are not proxy-friendly" comments by the ME team. Why do I personally play KoW? Because I can easily use my old WHFB figures. Why has KoW started to gain traction? Good rules, plus the proxy-friendly nature. Do I mostly use Mantic figures? Of course not! But I have bought several large armies worth of their models, including at retail. Would that have become a thing without them being proxy-friendly? No way.
While there aren't enough figures in a single box to use for a ten-man squad, that will certainly be a non-issue once we get to retail. I know that doesn't help us for this particular Kickstarter, but as we've several times: we're okay with that. We have made quite a few choices that make our overall KS total not be nearly as high as many other miniature game Kickstarters, but will put us in a much better position than most of those companies post-KS.
For example, our backer average is right around $90, mainly because we do not have add-ons currently (because doing so creates a logistical nightmare that has seriously damaged many smaller companies that have allowed it). If we did allow add-ons and got our backer average up anywhere near what other comparable miniature KSers have done (around $250 is fairly usual for miniature KSers with add-ons), then our total with 500 backers would be $125,000. While that total is certainly not earth-shattering, it definitely gives a different perspective on how our KS campaign is actually going.
And as for MEdge being not proxy-friendly, I'm assuming you're remembering our response when people asked if we're including rules allowing people to create their own units (which we did say we wouldn't be doing)?
Because we certainly can't (and wouldn't want to) stop people from using proxy models to play MEdge if they are so inclined. If/when there are MEdge tournaments actually run by us? In that case we'd probably have to implement some limitations just to keep things fair and balanced, but there is definitely no intent on our part to make people feel like they have to use only our miniatures to play our game. If you like our setting and our rules, then by all means, use whatever you'd like to play the game!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Let me ask you straight-up, completely honestly: do you really not see the quality difference between the contractor sculpts and all the other sculpts? Are you really not sure why those minis are drawing so much criticism?
I suspect that, given that they've been fairly active in the threads, SAS are quite aware of why those minis are drawing criticism. But that criticism has been far from universal, and the contractors are in equal 3rd place with the scarecrow in the 'extra sprue' poll on the Kickstarter.
Exactly.
Although Bob has been quite vocal in his dislike of the Epirians, I personally love them and they're some of my favourite models from the box; and I seem to recall Bob saying that he loved the Angel when that was revealed, whereas I was the opposite and it's only the recent conversions that have made me like it.
My point is not just that Bob and myself seem to be exact opposites, but that although I have some criticisms for all of the sculpts (nothing can be perfect after all) I don't see any real difference in quality between the Epirians and the other models in the box. I can see different aesthetic choices, which it seems are not to everyone's taste- the contractors do seem to be a bit of a marmite model; but no drop in the quality of the sculpts.
Azazelx wrote: They're a self-selecting group who like what has been presented to them and want more of that.
Yes, that was my point.
While some people here don't like those models and think they are flawed, others like them just fine... enough to want more of them in the box.
And that point was a response to the idea that opening the design process to the public would have resulted in a different design direction... That would only be a given of everyone agreed that the current designs are bad. And clearly, they don't.
Azazelx wrote: They're a self-selecting group who like what has been presented to them and want more of that.
Yes, that was my point.
While some people here don't like those models and think they are flawed, others like them just fine... enough to want more of them in the box.
And that point was a response to the idea that opening the design process to the public would have resulted in a different design direction... That would only be a given of everyone agreed that the current designs are bad. And clearly, they don't.
While there are some portion of the 300 backers who obviously like them enough to want more of them, there might be 1000 potential backers who don't. The poll really is no way to judge.
I wasn't making a point about how many people like them... Just about the fact that opinion on any given model will vary, regardless of what any given individual thinks of it.
There is also the underlying fear that a poster will accidentally offend someone of prestige on the site, whether they are afraid of retaliation or just don't want to hurt someone's feelings, which stifles more comments than any active moderation ever could.
.
That's a really interesting comment. Hadn't considered it before, but it's pretty interesting.
This one's been niggling at me, so I figured it was worth addressing.... Ultimately, a desire to not cause offense should temper a poster's response to any project, not just this one.
So long as feedback is politely delivered, that will rarely be a problem.
Those saying KS fatigure is the real reason, well, not here. And not from what I've seen in the scant discussions outside of Dakka. I don't feel like I have KS fatigue, but I am picky about choosing what I invest in, generally always have.
Now, the real reason I've not backed and, you'll have to excuse me, but I'm going to be very blunt but will try to be constructive. I find the miniatures and the background to be mediocre. I look at them and feel no inspiration. I read snippets of the background and it just doesn't grab me or draw me in. When it was announced I did a quick scan of the visuals and then I looked into the Karist faction. They initially sounded interesting and appealing. Reading into it, they sound like religious fanatics and zealots. Convert or else. Sort of like a sci-fi spanish inquisition with a whole nihilistic bent to them. But then I saw the models. They didn't look very religious. They looked like I've seen them before. A bunch of fella's in some sci-fi armour with broken wrists. There's nothing there to identify them as cultist or zealots. No sign of idols or the slightest look of madness. After that, I just thought, nah, not interested and that was even after I saw them in the flesh on the Salute stand (never understood why you kept the robots and angel hidden on the Salute stand). Though I have to say, the large Robot is the business. Nice design and look. The contractors, not so much. There's plenty of these style of miniatures out there with Sedition Wars, Elysians, Mantic Corporation Troops, Infinity. However, the contractors just don't have a unique look or style. They'd slot into any of those other games without anyone really noticing. You try doing that with a Space Marine - it'll be recognised instantly.
Now, as mentioned by other posters and although I'm not a massive contributor, when I had a thought or just wanted to chip in occasionally, I didn't feel comfortable posting in MEdge threads. Still feel nervous now. Call it perception, but it just felt, well, unwelcoming. My perception of things were that discussion was controlled and sanitised to an unhealthy extent. There was no real organic conversation and, I must say, the locked forum was an odd decision and perhaps attempts to post threads elsewhere would have been locked or moved. Look at any other typical Kickstarter or the average news and rumour thread. They're usually full of lively debate, heated discussions, in-jokes and other bits of entertainment - Banter. The MEdge thread didn't have much, if any, of that. So what I did was go looking outside of dakkadakka to have a discussion or at least read up on what other people are saying, look at their opinions. And there really wasn't anything. There was a handful of so-so responses on [TMP] and Beasts of War and a generally short but negative thread on Warseer, but nothing else anywhere. Nothing on CMON, PlanetFigure, WAMP, BoLS or other places I went to. No talk, no knowledge, no visibility.
And this leads to the big problem with the Kicsktarter in my view- there was no build up, no big attempt at hyping or getting people excited, just BANG, Kickstarter. A GW Style out of nowhere release. In fact, it was worse than GW. At least with GW we may get a couple of weeks notice through some rumours or shaky White Dwarf photos bouncing around that we can use as indicators to put aside cash. I also feel a massive opportunity was missed in asking the general Dakka unwashed on their opinions - concept art, ideas, background. I don't mean design by committee, but market research in the traditional sense. SAS are in an enviable position of having a vast audience of their core market on tap as well as being able to command the respect to be listened to and get responses from the said unwashed. But, I didn't see anything in the way of that done. A missed opportunity. As involvement could have potentially created a sense of shared inclusion. Something that would have benefited the campaign enormously and even built a large core of evangelists to take the word out there, Karist style (though, probably without the accompanying menaces).
zedmeister wrote: ... and perhaps attempts to post threads elsewhere would have been locked or moved..
The existence of this thread we're in right now suggests otherwise...
I'm curious as to what you mean by 'sanitised' though... other than a few coments to stop the thread veering away from discussion of the kickstarter, what were you seeing in the kickstarter thread that gave you that perception?
zedmeister wrote: ... and perhaps attempts to post threads elsewhere would have been locked or moved..
The existence of this thread we're in right now suggests otherwise...
I'm curious as to what you mean by 'sanitised' though... other than a few coments to stop the thread veering away from discussion of the kickstarter, what were you seeing in the kickstarter thread that gave you that perception?
A feeling, rightly or wrongly.
In other threads, sometimes a joke crops up or some Off Topic debate happens, nothing nasty and if it goes on a little too long, the Mods usually chime in with a "Very funny lads, now back to topic". With MEdge, the Mod responses felt subtly different. Sort of along the lines of "Stop it now" and "No No, not to be discussed here". And that was that...
While there aren't enough figures in a single box to use for a ten-man squad, that will certainly be a non-issue once we get to retail. I know that doesn't help us for this particular Kickstarter, but as we've several times: we're okay with that. We have made quite a few choices that make our overall KS total not be nearly as high as many other miniature game Kickstarters, but will put us in a much better position than most of those companies post-KS.
I think it's unfortunately going to be the gift that keeps on giving in terms of hurting your game at retail and detracting new players from picking it up. Once you hit retail, you might sell units of 10 Karists, etc seperately - but assuming that the Battle for Zycanthus starter box is going to be your flagship retail product - it's still going to be around the $90-100 price point, and it's still not going to have enough guys for a "back-up plan" squad of 10 Guardsmen.
That's the important distinction I was making. I'm not suggesting Mantic-style dozens of figures that later serve to devalue your products - simply that if the human troops were supplied with enough to make (at least) squads of 10 (5 for the heavy Karists?) rather than 4/6 then people on KS or at retail have that backup plan in case playing ME doesn't pan out for them. That's not Mantic or CMoN-style shenanigans. It's literally just a couple of extra models.
For example, our backer average is right around $90, mainly because we do not have add-ons currently (because doing so creates a logistical nightmare that has seriously damaged many smaller companies that have allowed it). If we did allow add-ons and got our backer average up anywhere near what other comparable miniature KSers have done (around $250 is fairly usual for miniature KSers with add-ons), then our total with 500 backers would be $125,000. While that total is certainly not earth-shattering, it definitely gives a different perspective on how our KS campaign is actually going.
I'm not sure that "backer average" means much when almost 1/4 of your backers are at $1 or $10. Twisting the numbers with a bunch of "best case" and "typical campaigns" "if we just"s so that you can read it as the equivalent of $125k is just being silly or lying to yourself. Intelligent people who have a vested interest in presenting a certain perspective can twist numbers in many creative ways. Translating 50 backers at $1 and 50 at $10 to "a $250 value each - so $25,000 worth of backers" (if only you had add-ons) is silly at best and self-delusional at worst. It's a different perspective because it's a completely fictional one. It's fantasy. Please don't do this.
It's $40k. It is what it is. 1/5 of your backers are invested at a level where they don't really count as anything significant towards the total. That's where a lot of the "Dakka Goodwill" has ended up. That's not a great thing. I'd see it as a problem.
I understand that you're in a difficult position here. If you openly admit that there are big problems, you risk losing some of the $40k that is already there and having a backslide. I don't think the "Everything is Awesome" stuff with the $125k "valuation" helps either, though. It makes you look disconnected from the actual situation.
I think your best solution for both now and later is to be proactive with the product. Redo your numbers and bump the number of models so that each group of humans can make at least 10. If it's 12, then that might be what you have to do. You might get away with 5 for the heavy Karists, but if they're in sprues of 4, I'd also say go for 12 so you get a safe 10. That's three squads of models for 40k. People then have their "insurance" for your $90-100-ish boxed set. It's not Mantic-style "buckets of models" etc. Would it be enough to get a big bump or influx this late in the game? I can't say. It might already be too late to make $125k more than a theoretical. But it's not my game or investment.
And as for MEdge being not proxy-friendly, I'm assuming you're remembering our response when people asked if we're including rules allowing people to create their own units (which we did say we wouldn't be doing)?
I can't recall the exact wording of the statement. It was several weeks ago now, and in the other thread. Might well have been the one you're referencing.
Because we certainly can't (and wouldn't want to) stop people from using proxy models to play MEdge if they are so inclined. If/when there are MEdge tournaments actually run by us? In that case we'd probably have to implement some limitations just to keep things fair and balanced, but there is definitely no intent on our part to make people feel like they have to use only our miniatures to play our game. If you like our setting and our rules, then by all means, use whatever you'd like to play the game!
Obviously this is true, even Insaniak's secret police can't stop me from playing with the figures I want to in my own house, but giving people more easily accessed options to use their existing models makes it much easier to start up and get invested in a new game. Whether that's Mantic's style of "creating" "orx" or giving players the tools to create their own rules for their Tyranid swarm (look what came out of the Maelstrom in a game at my house!) Either option is a good thing in many ways as it makes it easier for new players to engage with your rules and game. Easier to dip your toe in. Easier to create your own investment in the game.
I wish you guys all the best, whatever you choose. You can expect a small pledge from me, but it's essentially a goodwill donation to Dakka because the KS package as it stands does not appeal on several levels, and I really wish it wasn't this way (else I wouldn't bother typing all of this).
I'm curious as to what you mean by 'sanitised' though... other than a few coments to stop the thread veering away from discussion of the kickstarter, what were you seeing in the kickstarter thread that gave you that perception?
A feeling, rightly or wrongly.
In other threads, sometimes a joke crops up or some Off Topic debate happens, nothing nasty and if it goes on a little too long, the Mods usually chime in with a "Very funny lads, now back to topic". With MEdge, the Mod responses felt subtly different. Sort of along the lines of "Stop it now" and "No No, not to be discussed here". And that was that...
And that point was a response to the idea that opening the design process to the public would have resulted in a different design direction... That would only be a given of everyone agreed that the current designs are bad. And clearly, they don't.
Design by committee isn't a great thing, but showing some options and concept design upfront is a pretty normal thing. It's already been explained how Dreamforge has utilised this very well. You appear to choose to see the backer and pledge total numbers as Just Dandy. I see those numbers and think of "Holes in a fighter plane". This campaign should really be in the hundreds of thousands at this point. At least over $100k. The fact that it is not is a cause for concern, or should be at least, given the pedigree of the game and it's contributors as well as how far along the product components are.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Zedmeister - just read your post and I think you've put it well. I agree with pretty much everything you've said.
And now I'm probably going to feth off back to the painting forums where it's safer.
zedmeister wrote: . And there really wasn't anything. There was a handful of so-so responses on [TMP] and Beasts of War and a generally short but negative thread on Warseer, but nothing else anywhere. Nothing on CMON, PlanetFigure, WAMP, BoLS or other places I went to. No talk, no knowledge, no visibility.
And this leads to the big problem with the Kicsktarter in my view- there was no build up, no big attempt at hyping or getting people excited, just BANG, Kickstarter. A GW Style out of nowhere release. In fact, it was worse than GW. At least with GW we may get a couple of weeks notice through some rumours or shaky White Dwarf photos bouncing around that we can use as indicators to put aside cash. I also feel a massive opportunity was missed in asking the general Dakka unwashed on their opinions - concept art, ideas, background. I don't mean design by committee, but market research in the traditional sense. SAS are in an enviable position of having a vast audience of their core market on tap as well as being able to command the respect to be listened to and get responses from the said unwashed. But, I didn't see anything in the way of that done. A missed opportunity. As involvement could have potentially created a sense of shared inclusion. Something that would have benefited the campaign enormously and even built a large core of evangelists to take the word out there, Karist style (though, probably without the accompanying menaces).
This is an interesting point, and slightly worrying that there not much activity on other forums, especcially on beat of war where they did a salute item on it, just checked Facebook there is no Mealstorm's edge page, there is a Spiral Arm Studios page but no posts? To succeed you have to create a craving for the product, make it viable in the wargaming media so that there is a buzz, SAS should be turning out promotional material in buckets, i mean interviews, concept art and plans on things to come. but i see not much.
People in that respect are like crows, if some company shows some shiny stuff they will keep their ears peaked, but if nothing much happens they go to greener pastures and you are left with the die hards.
And this leads to the big problem with the Kicsktarter in my view- there was no build up, no big attempt at hyping or getting people excited, just BANG, Kickstarter. A GW Style out of nowhere release. In fact, it was worse than GW. At least with GW we may get a couple of weeks notice through some rumours or shaky White Dwarf photos bouncing around that we can use as indicators to put aside cash. I also feel a massive opportunity was missed in asking the general Dakka unwashed on their opinions - concept art, ideas, background. I don't mean design by committee, but market research in the traditional sense. SAS are in an enviable position of having a vast audience of their core market on tap as well as being able to command the respect to be listened to and get responses from the said unwashed. But, I didn't see anything in the way of that done. A missed opportunity. As involvement could have potentially created a sense of shared inclusion. Something that would have benefited the campaign enormously and even built a large core of evangelists to take the word out there, Karist style (though, probably without the accompanying menaces).
I think part of the confusion is that this particular project isn't starting where other projects do.
The ship date for this project is six months from now. From the project schedule:
Jun - Kickstarter ends, Beta rules go out to backers who requested them. Playtesting and final tweaks to ruleset, final plastics are completed and production ready.
Jul - Rules go to design stage, Plastics produced in volume and shipped to us.
with the boxes scheduled to start shipping out in November.
Most of the wargame projects that I've seen are posting renders of the models because they haven't started model tooling yet, so if a model concept goes over badly they can scrap the concept and try something else. So criticism of one of the models can be met with "Okay, okay. Everyone hates that, so how about this instead?" Because those projects post concept art or 3D renders, list a project date a year from now, so that in order to meet their one year date they'll have to resort to shipping by waves or be six months to a year late depending on stretch goals.
Maelstrom's Edge is at the "Here are the plastic models for the game we're making" stage. Even if everyone on the forum hates one of the miniatures, that model's already been paid for and is going to be in the box. So any criticism of the models is going to met with "That's for your input, we'll consider it for future models but we've already paid for that one."
In other words, the project isn't paying for development of the plastic models, it's paying for the print run for the boxed set. That means that even a teeny, tiny project finish is probably just fine.
Otherwise, it sounds like a lot of your feedback is about a year late, unless you're planning on handing over the keys to a time machine.
insaniak wrote: I wasn't making a point about how many people like them... Just about the fact that opinion on any given model will vary, regardless of what any given individual thinks of it.
With due respect, that point is somewhat irrelevant, certainly as a response to the argument that Az, Bob and co are making: this is ultimately not an academic exercise, it's not getting graded on some objective measure of 'quality', as others have alluded to above.
It's a commercial matter, and as such the only thing that matters is 'do the dogs like the dog food?'
I've been much quieter in this thread then I would be otherwise (my post mortem will be more... lively), because of 2 basic reasons:
First, I genuinely don't like a lot of the elements of the game, and simply saying "this sucks" isn't any kind of useful feedback for people that you want to succeed, even if only dispite themselves.
Second and most significantly... I don't know that the problems with this campaign are fixable. As noted above, the dog food is in the can, the product is... done. To the extent that problems were quickly identified, those problems don't seem to have any solutions in this campaign. Take the Karist heavy troopers: the ungainly problems were identified almost as soon as the models were shown, the complaint was noted and... what, exactly?
There are plenty of other things to note (and they will be in time), but that's an example of a simple, straightforward problem that has been known for the duration of the project and, as near as I know, gone nowhere.
With due respect, that point is somewhat irrelevant, certainly as a response to the argument that Az, Bob and co are making: this is ultimately not an academic exercise, it's not getting graded on some objective measure of 'quality', as others have alluded to above.
It's very relevant to the point it was actually addressing, which was nothing to do with the inherent quality of the miniatures, and was simply about the issues with trying to design by community feedback. Specifically that doing so is problematic, due to the fact that everybody likes different stuff.
Take the Karist heavy troopers: the ungainly problems were identified almost as soon as the models were shown, the complaint was noted and... what, exactly?
It was pointed out that there were certain design limitations that resulted in that problem arising, that it doesn't look as bad from most angles but that the photo was specifically taken from the least flattering angle precisely to avoid any appearance of trying to hide the issue, and that it can be fairly easily fixed by just removing a small slice of plastic when you assemble the model.
That might not be a resolution that satisfies everyone, but IMO it's a better one than delaying the project completion date by a year or two for redesign and retooling over something that is ultimately is a fairly minor problem that will be largely unnoticed on the table.
Edit - And really, it's only 'poor design' if you're unhappy with the model as is. I've built a handful of these, and I've tinkered with a couple to change the wrists to see how it looked... and for the most part I don't think it's worth the effort. Yes, the wrist is slightly awkward, anatomically. But so are a whole lot of model poses that people just take for granted.
I've been much quieter in this thread then I would be otherwise (my post mortem will be more... lively), because of 2 basic reasons:
First, I genuinely don't like a lot of the elements of the game, and simply saying "this sucks" isn't any kind of useful feedback for people that you want to succeed, even if only dispite themselves.
Second and most significantly... I don't know that the problems with this campaign are fixable. As noted above, the dog food is in the can, the product is... done. To the extent that problems were quickly identified, those problems don't seem to have any solutions in this campaign. Take the Karist heavy troopers: the ungainly problems were identified almost as soon as the models were shown, the complaint was noted and... what, exactly?
Those are two very good reasons and you're not the only one who had both cross his mind as reasons to not comment as frequently or as bluntly as normal. Regardless of the good faith and/or well intentions behind the posting, it is literally impossible to give constructive criticism on the campaign as previewed simply because it is so far along and those changes simply can't be made without incurring significant cost that will apparently not be absorbed by the current pledge total of the KS. At best, it can help inform/sway future decisions but the stuff shown is too far down the pipeline but it can't by its very nature be constructive for the exact subject of the criticism.. and I'm sure that doesn't have a positive effect on how that criticism is received either.
zedmeister wrote: Those saying KS fatigure is the real reason, well, not here. And not from what I've seen in the scant discussions outside of Dakka. I don't feel like I have KS fatigue, but I am picky about choosing what I invest in, generally always have.
Now, the real reason I've not backed and, you'll have to excuse me, but I'm going to be very blunt but will try to be constructive. I find the miniatures and the background to be mediocre. I look at them and feel no inspiration. I read snippets of the background and it just doesn't grab me or draw me in. When it was announced I did a quick scan of the visuals and then I looked into the Karist faction. They initially sounded interesting and appealing. Reading into it, they sound like religious fanatics and zealots. Convert or else. Sort of like a sci-fi spanish inquisition with a whole nihilistic bent to them. But then I saw the models. They didn't look very religious. They looked like I've seen them before. A bunch of fella's in some sci-fi armour with broken wrists. There's nothing there to identify them as cultist or zealots. No sign of idols or the slightest look of madness. After that, I just thought, nah, not interested and that was even after I saw them in the flesh on the Salute stand (never understood why you kept the robots and angel hidden on the Salute stand). Though I have to say, the large Robot is the business. Nice design and look. The contractors, not so much. There's plenty of these style of miniatures out there with Sedition Wars, Elysians, Mantic Corporation Troops, Infinity. However, the contractors just don't have a unique look or style. They'd slot into any of those other games without anyone really noticing. You try doing that with a Space Marine - it'll be recognised instantly.
Now, as mentioned by other posters and although I'm not a massive contributor, when I had a thought or just wanted to chip in occasionally, I didn't feel comfortable posting in MEdge threads. Still feel nervous now. Call it perception, but it just felt, well, unwelcoming. My perception of things were that discussion was controlled and sanitised to an unhealthy extent. There was no real organic conversation and, I must say, the locked forum was an odd decision and perhaps attempts to post threads elsewhere would have been locked or moved. Look at any other typical Kickstarter or the average news and rumour thread. They're usually full of lively debate, heated discussions, in-jokes and other bits of entertainment - Banter. The MEdge thread didn't have much, if any, of that. So what I did was go looking outside of dakkadakka to have a discussion or at least read up on what other people are saying, look at their opinions. And there really wasn't anything. There was a handful of so-so responses on [TMP] and Beasts of War and a generally short but negative thread on Warseer, but nothing else anywhere. Nothing on CMON, PlanetFigure, WAMP, BoLS or other places I went to. No talk, no knowledge, no visibility.
And this leads to the big problem with the Kicsktarter in my view- there was no build up, no big attempt at hyping or getting people excited, just BANG, Kickstarter. A GW Style out of nowhere release. In fact, it was worse than GW. At least with GW we may get a couple of weeks notice through some rumours or shaky White Dwarf photos bouncing around that we can use as indicators to put aside cash. I also feel a massive opportunity was missed in asking the general Dakka unwashed on their opinions - concept art, ideas, background. I don't mean design by committee, but market research in the traditional sense. SAS are in an enviable position of having a vast audience of their core market on tap as well as being able to command the respect to be listened to and get responses from the said unwashed. But, I didn't see anything in the way of that done. A missed opportunity. As involvement could have potentially created a sense of shared inclusion. Something that would have benefited the campaign enormously and even built a large core of evangelists to take the word out there, Karist style (though, probably without the accompanying menaces).
I tried to discuss this earlier though, in a long-shot and albeit nervous way.
After pondering this for a while, if we were to compare this to a video game series, the best comparison for this tabletop game would be without a doubt, Destiny. It is whitewashed, lacking, and already done. Your terrain bits are great, and not capitalized on. I feel like what we say as a whole just sticks to the design board and then keeps sticking, without effect. I feel no attachment or excitement for this campaign, and I am in 114$. I honestly only want the terrain. I'm in at your 90$ sweet spot plus the additional money for the sprues.
The Contractors are so bland and vanilla, I don't even want a taste. I only want the scarecrows and the hunter mechs. The rest I have agreed to trade with Ritides. I've had three KS so far, so yes I am slightly burnt out but, I feel if this was a wasted chance. For instance, I have a plog on here to learn techniques to impress not only myself but my friends. I paint miniatures not to play but, to display. Sorta like model jets or cars. I'm not really that good at it, so I get miniatures that lend themselves to paint but, that's at risk of going off topic.
I guess to get back on topic, I must state my intentions. I got the Karists due to the xeno-loving, magic sniffing, zealous nature. They're not zealous at all though. They remind me of up-armored humans, and if you took a game like Halo, I would say that these are human versions of Elites. Minus all that makes the elites cool. I love them aesthetically but, at this point they bring to mind generic third party miniatures that you can use to proxy in 40k. The most anticipation I have gotten over this entire campaign was from two things, one of which I mentioned. The first being terrain, and the second thing was the update you sent on KS concerning the picture frame diorama.
Furthermore, I feel as if that really shouldn't be a selling point for me as a customer but for me it was that update, so by god they're going to end up in a giant swamp inside of a picture frame diorama. That's their fate, sadly. The templates, should they fit over the green 40k ones, will be glued to them. As a customer, I feel as if this money could have been better spent being forced into the Modcubes but, I am slightly excited for this campaign. In the "Oh boy, new minis," sort of way, not the "I'm super stoked for this product," way.
The rest traded, including the cards. I don't feel like I am even getting a big value, this is my way aside from being a DCM to support the forums and staff that I hold dear. I feel as if you guys should have done the concept art and teasers on this forum, and altered things based on consumer thoughts before producing. The stability of basically being done was a plus, and a reason I pledged but, I would have been more hyped if you guys had given people more input. I could write more, for instance I am really hyped over a man's fictional book on Deviantart as he puts his concept art that he digitally illustrates up on the web before making a new change to his upcoming series. Due to this, even though I know absolutely jack squat about his books, I have followed it for years eagerly, as his art shows me where he is going with the series as a whole. I guess I could say it builds up hype.
I hope you'll forgive me for writing this but, it's simply how I feel. <------ Yes, I'm aware how that statement can be picked apart as well. Feel free to light me up for this if you don't agree, I'll just go hide in the plogs again.
Edit: That isn't to say I don't support SAS. I have high hopes for the books should I ever get a physical copy. Furthermore, I've done all I really can by pledging that super-high amount of money. Honestly, a part of me wishes I hadn't, as I am in a financial bind now. (I wasn't when I originally pledged.) It's hard for me to type all this, as I really, really, want to support you guys.
I think there have been a lot of good ideas on improving the game reception have already by other users like Bob, Azazlex, et. al.. As such, I'd like to just put forward ideas for future releases that can be taken or not, hopefully some of them might be beneficial for future planning:
1) I think the Epicarians are ripe for receiving exo-suits. Something perhaps similar to Edge of Tomorrow
I think it would mesh really well with their concept, make the individual soldiers more intimidating, and frankly there aren't enough exo-suit models on the market (it feels rather untapped).
2) Unique aliens races. 40k is good with having a diverse range of armies to choose from, but most of it is fantasy-in-space rather than actual unique alien concepts. Tyranids (derivative of the alien from Aliens) and Tau (derivative of anime to a degree) are really the only unique alien concepts that have been explored significantly. I feel that most other sci-fi games haven't covered this area much, and usually we've just ended up with humanoids with different color skin and flaps on their face.
Developing some unique alien races would be a huge boon IMO for this game and draw in (again) a rather untapped market.
3) In regards to (2), I'd like to see the Angels as their own unique faction rather than just the pets of the Karists. Something of an uncontrollable force, attacking the galaxy as they too flee from the Maelstrom. What I envision is something that is more "alien" than the Tyranids in 40k, and are very much focused on close combat tactics (as opposed to Tyranids which are just shooting everything these days).
4) More female characters. I feel a good way to do this would be through the Dark Eldar concept 40k, where female soldiers are mixed in with regular grunts intermittently. That way people who want the extremes (i.e. all-female or all-male) could simply do extra purchasing to get what they want. Kickstarters for things like Raging Heroes shows that there is a significant fan base out there for just female models, so I think having the ability to purchase sprues of female models (perhaps sold in squad boxes with male soldiers?) would be great.
5) More zealous Karists. I think people really enjoy the extremes nature of most table-top games, often the more bizarre or crazy, the better. I'd like to see Karists more as a sort of inverse-zealot from 40k in that they use the energy of the universe, and destroy those who oppose its use. I do feel like this is covered to a degree already, but I think it would be good to have Karists appear more extreme in their appearance, with sigils, damaged armor, etc, etc.
6) Additional factions. I realize this is part of the plan, but the sooner you can have a range of army options available to customers, the better. Personally, this is where I feel 40k excels so well at drawing in customers (beyond having Space Marines). People who don't like Karists or Epicarians, but want to support the game for its good rules and evolving nature, would be ripe for future purchases with this.
Those are the big ideas I have at the moment. Like I said, I do hope something in here can be useful for future projects, because I would very much like to see this game succeed. Thanks!
Accolade wrote: I think there have been a lot of good ideas on improving the game reception have already by other users like Bob, Azazlex, et. al.. As such, I'd like to just put forward ideas for future releases that can be taken or not, hopefully some of them might be beneficial for future planning:
1) I think the Epicarians are ripe for receiving exo-suits. Something perhaps similar to Edge of Tomorrow
I think it would mesh really well with their concept, make the individual soldiers more intimidating, and frankly there aren't enough exo-suit models on the market (it feels rather untapped).
2) Unique aliens races. 40k is good with having a diverse range of armies to choose from, but most of it is fantasy-in-space rather than actual unique alien concepts. Tyranids (derivative of the alien from Aliens) and Tau (derivative of anime to a degree) are really the only unique alien concepts that have been explored significantly. I feel that most other sci-fi games haven't covered this area much, and usually we've just ended up with humanoids with different color skin and flaps on their face.
Developing some unique alien races would be a huge boon IMO for this game and draw in (again) a rather untapped market.
3) In regards to (2), I'd like to see the Angels as their own unique faction rather than just the pets of the Karists. Something of an uncontrollable force, attacking the galaxy as they too flee from the Maelstrom. What I envision is something that is more "alien" than the Tyranids in 40k, and are very much focused on close combat tactics (as opposed to Tyranids which are just shooting everything these days).
4) More female characters. I feel a good way to do this would be through the Dark Eldar concept 40k, where female soldiers are mixed in with regular grunts intermittently. That way people who want the extremes (i.e. all-female or all-male) could simply do extra purchasing to get what they want. Kickstarters for things like Raging Heroes shows that there is a significant fan base out there for just female models, so I think having the ability to purchase sprues of female models (perhaps sold in squad boxes with male soldiers?) would be great.
5) More zealous Karists. I think people really enjoy the extremes nature of most table-top games, often the more bizarre or crazy, the better. I'd like to see Karists more as a sort of inverse-zealot from 40k in that they use the energy of the universe, and destroy those who oppose its use. I do feel like this is covered to a degree already, but I think it would be good to have Karists appear more extreme in their appearance, with sigils, damaged armor, etc, etc.
6) Additional factions. I realize this is part of the plan, but the sooner you can have a range of army options available to customers, the better. Personally, this is where I feel 40k excels so well at drawing in customers (beyond having Space Marines). People who don't like Karists or Epicarians, but want to support the game for its good rules and evolving nature, would be ripe for future purchases with this.
Those are the big ideas I have at the moment. Like I said, I do hope something in here can be useful for future projects, because I would very much like to see this game succeed. Thanks!
This is literally like you've been reading our future plans.
Mymearan wrote: As an answer to bob's post, for me it's all about the miniature design. There has been a lot (too much imo) of talk about how technically complex the sprues are, and how well the minis go together... and honestly I don't care. First and foremost I want the miniatures to look amazing, no matter how they are produced. And they don't. I get a 90s feel from most of the ME minis, in terms of design sensibilities, sculpt detail, posing etc. The golden standard for me when it comes to plastic is stuff like GW or Kingdom Death, and ME isn't even close to being in the same ballpark as those. It's a whole different league, no matter how many sliding moulds have been used. The rules sound very cool, the fluff interesting, but none of that matters if I don't like the models. That's the sad truth of it in my case.
I also agree that the KS has been underwhelming in terms of reveals and future possibilities for the game. It's so pragmatic that it's almost like your parents telling you "you can't do that, that's not how things work, temper your expectations, be realistic" etc etc. It's extremely well-managed, to the point of being dull.
Good ad campaigns are as much about art as science, IMO. The effort has been very honest and workmanlike, but the campaign didn't tease, titillate, and generate positive emotional responses (and therefore buying decisions) the way you'd like to see.
And I think that magnifies the fact (for me, at least) that the game lacks a "hook."
From the beginning, I've gotten the sense that the team tried to position the rules as a differentiator. But that's a *really* hard sell to make, especially with a KS. Games have to be played to be compelling from a gameplay standpoint. You can even post the rules online -- and it might be a GREAT ruleset -- but in a vacuum you'll probably get a lot of nitpicking in response.
Setting/IP generally has a better chance to be compelling to a wider audience. But it was always going to be hard for the ME setting to be that, just because it's sci-fi. Sci-fi is a crowded space, filled with superheavyweight and heavyweight IPs like Star Wars and 40K. That's an uphill battle, unless you have some REALLY unique angle...which I don't see here, unfortunately.
So yes, I agree...in the end miniatures are what were going to make or break this KS, and unfortunately they came in mixed. I like certain miniatures, but honestly, the terrain sprues were the most interesting item to me just because they're useable with other game systems. In retrospect, they might have been better served to lead off with the bigger winners in the mini range to build more positive energy from the start. Again, they seemed content to grind it out rather than blow it out, and I'm not sure why. *shrug*
This, to be honest, is where a lot of the perceived problem is coming from. There's this small group of people who dislike aspects of the project who seem to take any disagreement with their opinion as censure, dismissal, or the work of paid shills, rather than as simply the presentation of a differing opinion.
I don't think that this is the problem. A few "malcontents" in the ME threads can't be blamed for the project being at $41k with only 6 days to go, which can't be what was envisioned by the creators. There are clearly some reasons why this project hasn't set the world on fire..
That wasn't the 'problem' I was referring to. That comment was in reference to the alleged 'dismissive' attitude from SAS.
The dismissive attitude comes from the way SAS replies. It's telling that one Mod thought that SAS responding to criticism was answer enough even though the content of SAS's replies is what people find dismissive.
Yes, the molds have been tooled. However, pointing that out is not the same as acknowledging mistakes and giving backers an idea that you know how to correct those mistakes for the next generation of products. We want to know that the next wave will be worth sticking around for. How can we be confident in a company that repeatedly points to a small number of hardcore fans who love everything and says, "Some people love them. There is no problem" while ignoring the ominous dissatisfaction? Legoburner's responses are full of confidence that some of us feel borders on self-delusion because it seems to be based on numbers that only he can see. It seems we need to pierce that bubble to let SAS know that they need to up their game with the next release.
We are not harping on these flaws again and again to be mean but because we don't feel like like the creative team is taking the criticism to heart. How can they improve a game if they only listen to the viewpoints they want to hear? They ignore the few precious customers who give feedback on why they aren't buying Medge just because they think those customers represent a minority instead of the vast majority of the people who didn't back the project and who don't care enough to comment.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Let me ask you straight-up, completely honestly: do you really not see the quality difference between the contractor sculpts and all the other sculpts? Are you really not sure why those minis are drawing so much criticism?
I suspect that, given that they've been fairly active in the threads, SAS are quite aware of why those minis are drawing criticism. But that criticism has been far from universal, and the contractors are in equal 3rd place with the scarecrow in the 'extra sprue' poll on the Kickstarter.
You've got to be kidding me. No model is going to draw universal criticism. As I said, even old Nagash had his devotees. But where there's smoke there's fire, and the Epirians have orders of magnitude more smoke than the bots or Karists.
Keep in mind that most backers are psychologically primed to see campaigns as products in the works rather than fait accompli.
I don't think that's entirely true. I've seen any number of miniatures-related projects on Kickstarter that have had finished miniatures just waiting to be cast, that have managed to go through the process without complaints from backers about being 'left out' of the design process. For some reason, some people have just taken it amiss in this particular case...
Did those campaigns have any failure miniatures? What did the backers say about those?
You misunderstand "that mini won't sell and here's why. Please don't screw up the next mini." for "I want the mini done my way or not at all."
Lego posted in the other thread that if you click on the hidden "x" in the top left corner of the TOP banner, it hides the huge pics on both the top and bottom. I appreciate him having an opt out for them.
zedmeister wrote: ... and perhaps attempts to post threads elsewhere would have been locked or moved..
The existence of this thread we're in right now suggests otherwise...
I'm curious as to what you mean by 'sanitised' though... other than a few coments to stop the thread veering away from discussion of the kickstarter, what were you seeing in the kickstarter thread that gave you that perception?
Here's a perfect example. This post and the few preceding it.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Let me ask you straight-up, completely honestly: do you really not see the quality difference between the contractor sculpts and all the other sculpts? Are you really not sure why those minis are drawing so much criticism?
I suspect that, given that they've been fairly active in the threads, SAS are quite aware of why those minis are drawing criticism. But that criticism has been far from universal, and the contractors are in equal 3rd place with the scarecrow in the 'extra sprue' poll on the Kickstarter.
Exactly.
Although Bob has been quite vocal in his dislike of the Epirians, I personally love them and they're some of my favourite models from the box; and I seem to recall Bob saying that he loved the Angel when that was revealed, whereas I was the opposite and it's only the recent conversions that have made me like it.
Listen. I don't hate the Epirians. I don't much dislike the Epirians. I acknowledge that they have flaws and I recognize that these flaws have harmed the campaign's image and turned potential backers away. I also recognize that the angel has flaws that have greatly diminished the model's impact.
There's a difference that is crucial for a product's success. If the CEO of Pepsico loved Crystal Pepsi, should he have focused more on trumping up likeminded focus groups instead of dropping an unprofitable line?
Keep in mind that I am a modeller and converter, so I liked seeing the potential in all these minis. I had to take myself to another viewpoint entirely before I could understand why so many people didn't like the minis. Now, I see their concerns and realize most people don't evaluate new minis the same way I do, but rather along much more harsh criteria. Passing on their concerns and reasoning is an attempt to engender a similar viewpoint shift for the creative team, especially whoever signed off on the tootling in the first place. The next wave of minis needs some fresh eyes to check them out before they tool the mold.
My point is not just that Bob and myself seem to be exact opposites, but that although I have some criticisms for all of the sculpts (nothing can be perfect after all) I don't see any real difference in quality between the Epirians and the other models in the box. I can see different aesthetic choices, which it seems are not to everyone's taste- the contractors do seem to be a bit of a marmite model; but no drop in the quality of the sculpts.
This is bordering on idealism. Nothing can be perfect. Everything is subjective. Nothing is more important than anything else. Bull.
This is a product designed to make money. If 90% of the critics level criticism at one miniature, there is a problem with that miniature as a product.
More importantly, there is an objective reason for this. Alex Holker pointed it out pages ago. SAS brushed it off with talk about proportions and heroic scale, but it came across as if they missed his point. The Epirians are not in Heroic Scale at all. They are in no scale that works.
When you look at a stylized cartoon, say the new Justice League with their exaggerated proportions, you don't see something off and disquieting. The Uncanny Valley may have been debunked as a legitimate psychological phenomenon, but the term exiswts and finds use because it is a very useful descriptor that says "something's off about that guy" and the Epirians fit in the uncanny valley. Here's why: even silly overexaggerated cartoons keep some proportions accurate, sucah as the ratio of the upper arm to the forearm, the ratio of the neck to the head, the length of the arms in comparison to the upper torso, the proportion of the shins to the thighs, and so on. On the Epirian contractor, some of these proportions are off. When an observer's mind corrects for the Heroic Scale, he will still find that the mini doesn't look right. Alex Holker made some great sketches that demonstrated this point beautifully.
We're not talking about design aesthetics but rather sculpting execution. The design looks great in the sketches, and the majority of it survives intact into the miniatures. Their human anatomy is all borked up, however, and that puts some people off. Quite a lot of people, potentially.
There is also the underlying fear that a poster will accidentally offend someone of prestige on the site, whether they are afraid of retaliation or just don't want to hurt someone's feelings, which stifles more comments than any active moderation ever could.
.
That's a really interesting comment. Hadn't considered it before, but it's pretty interesting.
This one's been niggling at me, so I figured it was worth addressing.... Ultimately, a desire to not cause offense should temper a poster's response to any project, not just this one.
So long as feedback is politely delivered, that will rarely be a problem.
Uh. Are you doing that deliberately?
Is anyone else hearing a German accent when they read that?
Lego posted in the other thread that if you click on the hidden "x" in the top left corner of the TOP banner, it hides the huge pics on both the top and bottom. I appreciate him having an opt out for them.
There's still a quite large text ad at the bottom of the page that you have to jump over in order to get to the "quick reply". It's rather intrusive. I wonder if these ads are pissing people off the project? A hidden X isn't especially ingratiating for people who don't know it's there, after all...
Lego posted in the other thread that if you click on the hidden "x" in the top left corner of the TOP banner, it hides the huge pics on both the top and bottom. I appreciate him having an opt out for them.
There's still a quite large text ad at the bottom of the page that you have to jump over in order to get to the "quick reply". It's rather intrusive. I wonder if these ads are pissing people off the project? A hidden X isn't especially ingratiating for people who don't know it's there, after all...
I know.. which is why I said it hides the pics (and not the whole ad). In any case, I don't have an issue with the ads for a limited time as I acknowledge that they could have been doing them the entire month. Now, whether that would have the intended effect or the opposite as you hint at is another story but I appreciate the opt out for the most distracting part (the pics). As a non-DCM who has used the site extensively for years, this is not a fight that I'd ever choose to pick.
insaniak wrote: There's no big conspiracy here, unless everyone who went to Salute was in on it...
And I wasn't talking about Salute. I was referring to American players who saw the models among their gaming group. In America. Oh, wait, sarcastic ellipses are need...
Are you still harping on this? It's really not a big conspiracy! One of the guys in our game group did some work for Maelstrom's Edge and got several of the sprues in advance. He wasn't able to show us until they had already been revealed (due to NDA's) and he brought them to one of the gaming nights to show people. There were already four backers of the KS at this point and he wanted to show us what we were backing. I'm sorry you weren't invited, if you want to come visit the central coast of California, I'm sure we can arrange you seeing the sprues yourself.
Near Santa Cruz? I may take you up on that in a few weeks.
Couple hours south, I'm in Paso Robles and our group meets in San Luis Obispo. Come join the shill team!
zedmeister wrote: ... and perhaps attempts to post threads elsewhere would have been locked or moved..
The existence of this thread we're in right now suggests otherwise...
You know why this thread exists? Because several people told me they weren't willing to create a criticism thread even after the mods put forward the idea in the main thread. They were uncomfortable. Many of them felt that they had been shut down in the main thread. No one else was stepping up and the mood in the main thread was becoming oppressive. So, I made this thread. I damn well didn't want to. I'm more comfortable bantering on the side than shouldering the direct gaze of the community. But it needed to be done as a pressure valve. Unfortunately, I think I was too late since the perception has lingered that the other thread is not a safe place for some posters.
When I made this thread, I was operating under the assumption that Medge would be a huge success and could stand a little light-hearted ribbing and even some venting (in this, safe, thread). Then the campaign choked and the Mods and their supporters became defensive in this thread, which is fair and expected, but it made the mood much more confrontational. The kinds of responses the SAS team gave varied from amazing to "are they serious?". So naturally, backers with a point to make tried to make it again, harder. And now nobody is having fun here and both sides feel like they need to save Medge from the other.
I'm curious as to what you mean by 'sanitised' though... other than a few coments to stop the thread veering away from discussion of the kickstarter, what were you seeing in the kickstarter thread that gave you that perception?
I think at this point you're just going to have to take other people's words for it. I get the impression that green would look like red if I showed it to you.
Those are two very good reasons and you're not the only one who had both cross his mind as reasons to not comment as frequently or as bluntly as normal. Regardless of the good faith and/or well intentions behind the posting, it is literally impossible to give constructive criticism on the campaign as previewed simply because it is so far along and those changes simply can't be made without incurring significant cost that will apparently not be absorbed by the current pledge total of the KS. At best, it can help inform/sway future decisions but the stuff shown is too far down the pipeline but it can't by its very nature be constructive for the exact subject of the criticism.. and I'm sure that doesn't have a positive effect on how that criticism is received either.
This right here.
That's the reason I would like to frame the discussion towards the eventual retail release. I would like to see a lot of ideas for positive things that SAS can do to help them out. "Make better minis" has its place, but maybe we can find a way to improve the reception the existing minis receive.
When the ME forum opens, I plan to start threads asking for what people want to see in the packaging for the unit boxes or supplements. What kinds of events or stories would people like to see in the Medge universe. What sales tactics have been successful for getting you into new games, or even to take a second look.
Unfortunately you have to learn from the past to improve the future, so we're still going to have to thrash out the positives and the negatives of the kickstarter campaign. Might get ugly.
Accolade wrote: I think there have been a lot of good ideas on improving the game reception have already by other users like Bob, Azazlex, et. al.. As such, I'd like to just put forward ideas for future releases that can be taken or not, hopefully some of them might be beneficial for future planning:
This is literally like you've been reading our future plans.
That makes me happy because those were some very good ideas. The exo suit for the Epirians is particularly brilliant.
Quintinus wrote: As a new user to Dakka, this thread is really putting me off of the community which I'd heard a lot of great things about. In just this very thread, we have normal users who are critiquing something and then every single rebuttal comes from someone with the [MOD] tag. Just on this very page, there are 3 mods!
You'll get that quite a bit on Dakka, as most of the mods are fairly active posters. So particularly when something crosses the interest radar of multiple mods, it's not at all unusual for a few mods to all be participating in the same discussion... and pretty much all of Dakka's mod team are interested in MEdge, so a lot of us have been discussing it.
Outside of actual moderation, the opinions of moderators shouldn't be treated any differently to any other poster... we're just hobbyists like everyone else. None of the mods are part of the SAS design team, or speak in any official capacity for them.
A bit late, but to back this up: during my many years here I have found the [MOD] tag to be mostly irrelevant when it comes to day-to-day interactions with other users. 99% of the time, unless the [MOD] tag is accompanied by red text in the post it is just another regular user speaking and nobody should feel like they have to walk on their tip-toes when talking to them.
The use of red text is an informal convention Moderators have adopted to show when they are speaking "ex cathedra" as it were.
It has never been held that Moderators should not comment normally in threads and in general participate as ordinary members of the site. In fact, one of the criteria for being selected as a Moderator is to participate enthusiastically in discussion.
Now I know how all those ladies at the club felt when I approached them.
"Coming on just a bit strong."
I don't think that regular fourm members are their target audience, more likey the large amount of 'guests' visiting specific threads from using search engines.
There is also the underlying fear that a poster will accidentally offend someone of prestige on the site, whether they are afraid of retaliation or just don't want to hurt someone's feelings, which stifles more comments than any active moderation ever could.
That's a really interesting comment. Hadn't considered it before, but it's pretty interesting.
This one's been niggling at me, so I figured it was worth addressing.... Ultimately, a desire to not cause offense should temper a poster's response to any project, not just this one.
So long as feedback is politely delivered, that will rarely be a problem.
Uh. Are you doing that deliberately?
Is anyone else hearing a German accent when they read that?
I am now.
This of course being a deliberate and specific example of the sort of joking and discussion that goes on in every other KS thread, that has been disallowed in the ME thread. That's why people are nervous about posting. That's why the thread "feels" different. Because it is. It's not "fun". Over-zealous moderation has resulted in all of the usual light-hearted joking and "fun" having been purged. If a thread is restricted to SRS BZNS, it results in the feel of the thread changing, with "I love it" becoming the main "safe" status of posters. This also results in a negative "feel" for the thread. Not a fun feel. That's not a good way to engage with people emotionally - and you want to engage with people's emotions in a positive way to make them feel positively towards a campaign asking for $100 or so of their money or to consider the game later on.
One of these threads is not like the others.
Before the inevitable post telling me that I'm wrong. How many people have noted in this, slightly safer-feeling thread that they feel nervous, or uncomfortable posting this or that? How often do you see that in any other KS thread? Most KS campaigns don't usually have a separate thread for discussion that might be considered tangental to the main business of the KS, do they? I can't think of any. We didn't get told to please take this discussion elsewhere and bugger off to the Mantic subforum when discussing "things wrong with Orx" in the DeadZone 2 KS thread. Yet, every time I post even in this thread, I do have an expectation that I might get a 3-day holiday for saying unpopular things that might offend the people who run this site or are heavily invested in the game (ie Insaniak). That's the truth of it, too. I don't feel the same way when saying far harsher, far more blunt things in other KS threads, nor do I feel that when I joke around, or post a pic in other Kickstarter threads that it will be declared verboten and moderated.
I couldn't find the "delicious" lips gif, so this one has to do.
That would be (and is) completely normal discussion in any other KS thread. In the ME thread, however...
It would have been off-topic in any other thread as well, for exactly the reason stated.
A certain amount of off-topic chatter is generally tolerated, but if it looks like it's going to divert the thread from the actual discussion, it's better to take it elsewhere. My request to do that in this case wasn't an attempt to stifle discussion (or I would have just said to stop it, rather than to take it elsewhere) but simply to move it somewhere it could continue without muddying the Kickstarter thread.
That would be (and is) completely normal discussion in any other KS thread. In the ME thread, however...
It would have been off-topic in any other thread as well, for exactly the reason stated.
A certain amount of off-topic chatter is generally tolerated, but if it looks like it's going to divert the thread from the actual discussion, it's better to take it elsewhere. My request to do that in this case wasn't an attempt to stifle discussion (or I would have just said to stop it, rather than to take it elsewhere) but simply to move it somewhere it could continue without muddying the Kickstarter thread.
I don't believe it would have. We were never asked to take conversation about Shadokesh or Space Soviets out of the Dreamforge thread. We were never told to take wishlisting about Abyssals or nature elementals out of KoW threads. I don't mean the current threads, either, but back when those concepts were considered way off possibilities.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: We were never asked to take conversation about Shadokesh or Space Soviets out of the Dreamforge thread. We were never told to take wishlisting about Abyssals or nature elementals out of KoW threads. I don't mean the current threads, either, but back when those concepts were considered way off possibilities.
Possibly not. Having not really followed those threads, I couldn't say.
If that off-topic chatter started to take over the threads, though, you probably should have been.
Look, this isn't, and has never been, an attempt to stifle discussion. All that was asked is that the Kickstarter thread focus on the Kickstarter, with other discussion taking place in other threads. Is that really so unreasonable?
insaniak wrote: Look, this isn't, and has never been, an attempt to stifle discussion. All that was asked is that the Kickstarter thread focus on the Kickstarter, with other discussion taking place in other threads. Is that really so unreasonable?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am beginning to regret having voted for the Angel as the bonus sprue in the starter set. I actually prefer the big robot but there were two of them already, but now it is going to be two Angels and two Hunters I kind of wish it was three Hunters.
Could we make a new thread to discuss the presentation of the Kickstarter and its resulting impression among the Dakka community? Or would that be considered against the rules?
(That is a joke, right? I can never read that guy.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am beginning to regret having voted for the Angel as the bonus sprue in the starter set. I actually prefer the big robot but there were two of them already, but now it is going to be two Angels and two Hunters I kind of wish it was three Hunters.
I'm happy with two angels. I think they are more unique than a big robot. But, if these were sprues added to the retail box, I would agree that hunters are the way to go. They seem to be the most successful minis of the campaign.
Whatever "successful" means.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Could we make a new thread to discuss the presentation of the Kickstarter and its resulting impression among the Dakka community? Or would that be considered against the rules?
Isn't that this thread? Pretty sure that was laid out in the OP. Either way, once the ME subforum opens up, it will be a lot easier to move into new threads.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Could we make a new thread to discuss the presentation of the Kickstarter and its resulting impression among the Dakka community? Or would that be considered against the rules?
Isn't that this thread? Pretty sure that was laid out in the OP. Either way, once the ME subforum opens up, it will be a lot easier to move into new threads.
I thought so, but then red text appeared after one of my posts so I'll go back to my conspiracy theories to avoid "derailing" this thread further.
Honestly, the whole ME thing is just bumming me out. I am going to give Dakka a vacation until the 4th when all this Kickstarter crap is over.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Could we make a new thread to discuss the presentation of the Kickstarter and its resulting impression among the Dakka community? Or would that be considered against the rules?
Isn't that this thread? Pretty sure that was laid out in the OP. Either way, once the ME subforum opens up, it will be a lot easier to move into new threads.
I thought so, but then red text appeared after one of my posts so I'll go back to my conspiracy theories to avoid "derailing" this thread further.
Honestly, the whole ME thing is just bumming me out. I am going to give Dakka a vacation until the 4th when all this Kickstarter crap is over.
Have a good week folks!
I was actually tempted to delete my account altogether but I couldn't find the button.
1) The Kickstarter thread: where we talk about stuff going on directly to do with the kickstarter.
2) The fluff/background/wishlisting thread (aka: this thread): everything related to the game and universe itself.
This thread has now devolved into lots of off-topic talk that should be thread #3: "the mods are preventing me from saying anything bad about the game" and "thread #1 and thread #2 are moderated worse than all other threads".
That topic is OT in either thread since it doesn't have anything to do with the actual subjects in either thread. If people are scared of persecution I will gladly volunteer to throw up a "Are MODs agents of SAS? Click here and find out!" thread either in discussion or Nuts & Bolts (whichever would be more appropriate) so that nobody else has to worry about biting the bullet.
1) The Kickstarter thread: where we talk about stuff going on directly to do with the kickstarter.
2) The fluff/background/wishlisting thread (aka: this thread): everything related to the game and universe itself.
This thread has now devolved into lots of off-topic talk that should be thread #3: "the mods are preventing me from saying anything bad about the game" and "thread #1 and thread #2 are moderated worse than all other threads".
That topic is OT in either thread since it doesn't have anything to do with the actual subjects in either thread. If people are scared of persecution I will gladly volunteer to throw up a "Are MODs agents of SAS? Click here and find out!" thread either in discussion or Nuts & Bolts (whichever would be more appropriate) so that nobody else has to worry about biting the bullet.
This thread was also meant to discuss Kickstarter strategy, which definitely includes community interactions with the creators, or the perception of it. Posters have listed that as a concern that affected their decisions to back the project or not. Seems fair game.
However, I really would like to discuss positive things that SAS or even we can do to help MEdge be a success at retail launch. Should there be an outrider program? Prize support? Breakfast cereals? Free form slam poetry RPGs?
Stormwall wrote: No offense but, why the ads? I'm already a DCM and pledged. At least make the X more viewable, I haven't found it yet.
I'm cross-posting this from the main MEdge N&R thread:
This is the first time I've ever been unhappy with Dakka...
I'm truly sorry about that, and I hope that you can forgive us.
Since we purchased Dakka in 2007, we have made dozens of decisions over that time to preserve user experience in exchange for not maximizing potential revenue for the site. My mantra has always been that as long as the site pays for its own operation, then every decision beyond that is based upon the concept of: 'does this make the user experience better?'
Anyone out there who thinks we've made a ton of money operating Dakka over the years is sorely mistaken. We have purposely kept Dakka as ad-free (as possible) to maintain that user experience, despite continuing to add incredibly costly benefits like the free picture hosting of the Dakka gallery and continually upgrading our servers to handle the increased user load (as the popularity of Dakka has continued to climb). Not to mention all the man-hours that go into actually running and maintaining the site for which we take no pay.
While the success of Maelstrom's Edge is incredibly important to us, it is not some cash cow we're trying to milk. The realities of plastic miniature production means that an incredible amount of capital has to be invested up front with the intent to make back those costs (and hopefully a profit) over the long term. So Maelstrom's Edge is very much a passion project for all of us. We didn't create it to try to make a buck, but rather because we wanted to make something we thought would be cool and hoped that others would also find cool as well. Yes, Maelstrom's Edge will go to market at this point regardless of how much or how little more we raise on the KS, but having a strong closing can definitely really help to push the project forward, and that in turn could eventually help to fund Dakka, ensuring that we can continue to grow the site without adding new permanent advertising.
However, part of trying to do what we can to get our message across about MEdge does obviously involve temporarily breaking some of those core ideals and putting fairly annoying ads here on Dakka. So again, I apologize for that. Please know that we will not be running further Kickstarters for MEdge in the future, and these advertisements are very temporary (just until the end of the KS in 5-ish days). I hope you can empathize with all that hard work and effort we've put into running Dakka for many years where the focus has been on putting the user experience first, and cut us some slack for this temporary breach of etiquette.
Accolade wrote: 1) I think the Epicarians are ripe for receiving exo-suits. Something perhaps similar to Edge of Tomorrow
I think it would mesh really well with their concept, make the individual soldiers more intimidating, and frankly there aren't enough exo-suit models on the market (it feels rather untapped).
That's actually what I started work on for my next drawing, since my drone design ran into setbacks*.
* In particular, working out how to best stow the nosecone/heat shield on the front of the torso. And yes, that means what you think it means.
2) Unique aliens races. 40k is good with having a diverse range of armies to choose from, but most of it is fantasy-in-space rather than actual unique alien concepts. Tyranids (derivative of the alien from Aliens) and Tau (derivative of anime to a degree) are really the only unique alien concepts that have been explored significantly. I feel that most other sci-fi games haven't covered this area much, and usually we've just ended up with humanoids with different color skin and flaps on their face.
Developing some unique alien races would be a huge boon IMO for this game and draw in (again) a rather untapped market.
Sure, as long as they are done right. Don't make them look goofy *cough*orx*cough* and don't make them so blatantly inferior *cough*zombies*cough*space rats*cough* that it is offensive to suggest they are humanity's equals, and they'd at least be something I'd like to see across the table, if not in my own collection.
4) More female characters. I feel a good way to do this would be through the Dark Eldar concept 40k, where female soldiers are mixed in with regular grunts intermittently. That way people who want the extremes (i.e. all-female or all-male) could simply do extra purchasing to get what they want. Kickstarters for things like Raging Heroes shows that there is a significant fan base out there for just female models, so I think having the ability to purchase sprues of female models (perhaps sold in squad boxes with male soldiers?) would be great.
I obviously agree with most of this, apart from the mixed boxes. It might be necessary to cut down on the number of products being stocked, but it doesn't actually make the product better, since you can't mix and match the two sprues unless something has gone terribly wrong in your design work.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: More importantly, there is an objective reason for this. Alex Holker pointed it out pages ago. SAS brushed it off with talk about proportions and heroic scale, but it came across as if they missed his point. The Epirians are not in Heroic Scale at all. They are in no scale that works.
When you look at a stylized cartoon, say the new Justice League with their exaggerated proportions, you don't see something off and disquieting. The Uncanny Valley may have been debunked as a legitimate psychological phenomenon, but the term exists and finds use because it is a very useful descriptor that says "something's off about that guy" and the Epirians fit in the uncanny valley. Here's why: even silly overexaggerated cartoons keep some proportions accurate, sucah as the ratio of the upper arm to the forearm, the ratio of the neck to the head, the length of the arms in comparison to the upper torso, the proportion of the shins to the thighs, and so on. On the Epirian contractor, some of these proportions are off. When an observer's mind corrects for the Heroic Scale, he will still find that the mini doesn't look right. Alex Holker made some great sketches that demonstrated this point beautifully.
We're not talking about design aesthetics but rather sculpting execution. The design looks great in the sketches, and the majority of it survives intact into the miniatures. Their human anatomy is all borked up, however, and that puts some people off. Quite a lot of people, potentially.
There are actually two of us who have posted sketches for "better" proportions in this thread. I think you're referring to Smacks' work, where he was talking about the more general case of cartoonish exaggeration that doesn't stop you thinking "Yep, that's a human," while I've just been sketching one more specific form of exaggeration.
1) The Kickstarter thread: where we talk about stuff going on directly to do with the kickstarter.
2) The fluff/background/wishlisting thread (aka: this thread): everything related to the game and universe itself.
This thread has now devolved into lots of off-topic talk that should be thread #3: "the mods are preventing me from saying anything bad about the game" and "thread #1 and thread #2 are moderated worse than all other threads".
That topic is OT in either thread since it doesn't have anything to do with the actual subjects in either thread. If people are scared of persecution I will gladly volunteer to throw up a "Are MODs agents of SAS? Click here and find out!" thread either in discussion or Nuts & Bolts (whichever would be more appropriate) so that nobody else has to worry about biting the bullet.
This thread was also meant to discuss Kickstarter strategy, which definitely includes community interactions with the creators, or the perception of it. Posters have listed that as a concern that affected their decisions to back the project or not. Seems fair game.
Community interactions with the creators doesn't include MODs though, they are just community members like you and me. That's why complaining about MOD behavior, perceived or real, would be considered off-topic in this thread. It's no different than about MOD behavior in a thread about GW or Infinity or Mantic, it doesn't really have much to do with the topic because the MODs are not creators or employees of SAS, GW, Infinity, or Mantic.
1) The Kickstarter thread: where we talk about stuff going on directly to do with the kickstarter.
2) The fluff/background/wishlisting thread (aka: this thread): everything related to the game and universe itself.
This thread has now devolved into lots of off-topic talk that should be thread #3: "the mods are preventing me from saying anything bad about the game" and "thread #1 and thread #2 are moderated worse than all other threads".
That topic is OT in either thread since it doesn't have anything to do with the actual subjects in either thread. If people are scared of persecution I will gladly volunteer to throw up a "Are MODs agents of SAS? Click here and find out!" thread either in discussion or Nuts & Bolts (whichever would be more appropriate) so that nobody else has to worry about biting the bullet.
This thread was also meant to discuss Kickstarter strategy, which definitely includes community interactions with the creators, or the perception of it. Posters have listed that as a concern that affected their decisions to back the project or not. Seems fair game.
Community interactions with the creators doesn't include MODs though, they are just community members like you and me. That's why complaining about MOD behavior, perceived or real, would be considered off-topic in this thread. It's no different than about MOD behavior in a thread about GW or Infinity or Mantic, it doesn't really have much to do with the topic because the MODs are not creators or employees of SAS, GW, Infinity, or Mantic.
But they are answerable to Yak and Lego. I can't tell which Mods are involved in SAS and which are just fans. I doubt most posters are real clear on the difference, either. It might even matter. This is Dakka's official game, which naturally will draw a mental connection to Dakka's officials.
Bob, just for reference, none of the mods are connected to the game other than yak and lego. Insaniak has done some amazing conversion work on a voluntary basis, but so have other Dakka posters, such as Panic.
I haven't said much because I think it's all been covered one way or another and I am Really busy with my own campaign (like not sleeping busy ). But I am looking forward to making my rusted out drone army stranded on a world near the Edge and fallen into disrepair.
On that note, I still need to line up someone to trade my second box of Karists to for their Epirians, PM me if interested!
I'll be honest here, as to me the Maelstorms edge seems to be quite lackluster. However I should probably elaborate that a bit so that the mods don't come at night and beat me up.
1. It appeared at the wrong time. Before maelstorms edge there has been countles kickstarters, which means that in order to appear interesting the product has to stand out, which Maelstorms edge does not appear to me to do, due to the reasons in the next point.
2. The models appear clumsy. Even though the models might have several posing options, they seem a bit clunky and unnatural in their poses, which makes them look very unappealing. Also, the the bare heads seem a bit unnatural and deformed.
3. The models are too expensive. 90 dolalrs for only a bit more than 20 models is way too much, as even GW models could compete with those prices, which means that for example infinity seems like a far better option.
Sienisoturi wrote: 3. The models are too expensive. 90 dolalrs for only a bit more than 20 models is way too much, as even GW models could compete with those prices, which means that for example infinity seems like a far better option.
The listing on the right hand side of the kickstarter is locked and creators are not allowed to edit it if it has any pledges. The content is as shown in the main part of the kickstarter page, giving 39 multipart, multipose plastic models for $90, as well as the card game, accessories and likely the terrain sprue as well.
Forgive the mention of J Class yacht racing but GW's new Space Assault Marine models are over $8 each, so you would get about 11 of them for $90. It's just an infantry figure with a big jetpack and a sword.
The most recent diorama by the team. It's very good, the artist has impressive skills (is it Winterdyne?). But it does highlight the failings in the miniatures. The right shoulder of the guy on the left is half the width of his torso. What steroids are these boys on to get their bodies looking like that? The butt of the gun the man on the right is holding is a very good representation of what the weapons look like in real life. Big and blocky and completely out of scale with everything.
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: If you fail an activation discipline check, then you'll automatically get to shake-off an extra D3 suppression, no matter what (2D3). Then on top of that, if the unit is pinned as part of the action where it fails that activation discipline check, then you shake-off an extra D3 suppression on top of that (so 3D3).
Sounds like dice rolling for the sake of dice rolling. This is precisely one of the reasons I stopped playing GW games. Suppression (which is about the only thing maintaining any interest for me in MEdge) does sound like a great gameplay mechanic, the way it is being implemented does not.
The right shoulder of the guy on the left is half the width of his torso.
His shoulder isn't that wide. Compare it to the left shoulder, and look at how the shoulder pads are sitting... His right elbow is out and raised, and so most of that apparent width is just the way the shoulder pad is sitting on the upper arm.
insaniak wrote: His shoulder isn't that wide. Compare it to the left shoulder, and look at how the shoulder pads are sitting... His right elbow is out and raised, and so most of that apparent width is just the way the shoulder pad is sitting on the upper arm.
If that's the case then what the heck is going on with that forearm? I thought it was there because his arm was coming straight down. If the arm is angled out slightly then that means his forearms are monstrously huge.
Spiral Arm Studios wrote: If you fail an activation discipline check, then you'll automatically get to shake-off an extra D3 suppression, no matter what (2D3). Then on top of that, if the unit is pinned as part of the action where it fails that activation discipline check, then you shake-off an extra D3 suppression on top of that (so 3D3).
Sounds like dice rolling for the sake of dice rolling. This is precisely one of the reasons I stopped playing GW games. Suppression (which is about the only thing maintaining any interest for me in MEdge) does sound like a great gameplay mechanic, the way it is being implemented does not.
I wish they went more of a Bolt Action / Gates of Antares suppression mechanism. In those games if a unit / big model shoots your unit and hits with one of its shots you get a suppression (they call it "pin") marker. When you activate your unit, if that unit has one or more pin markers it must make a morale test to see if it will perform its action or just go "down" (i.e. take cover / hit the dirt). The way you do it is you take the morale value of the troops (its either 8,9, or 10) and you subtract the number of pin markers and that is the number you need to roll equal to or under on 2D6. If you pass you can do your action normally and you remove 1 pin marker. There is a special "rally" order which you can remove 1+1D6 pin markers. If you have a number of pin markers = or greater than your morale value, the unit is counted as destroyed or fleeing and you remove it from the table.
It is simple, not much die rolling, you do not need lots of pin markers.
Kilkrazy wrote: Forgive the mention of J Class yacht racing but GW's new Space Assault Marine models are over $8 each, so you would get about 11 of them for $90. It's just an infantry figure with a big jetpack and a sword.
However you could get more models cheaper from GW by buing the dark vengeance.
Kilkrazy wrote: Forgive the mention of J Class yacht racing but GW's new Space Assault Marine models are over $8 each, so you would get about 11 of them for $90. It's just an infantry figure with a big jetpack and a sword.
However you could get more models cheaper from GW by buing the dark vengeance.
FWIW, you cant make a direct comparison as DV are snap together mono-pose plastics, whereas Medge is almost all multi-part and poseable plastics, and there are duplicate models in dark vengeance whereas every Medge model can assembled in a distinct way with a choice of weapon options. On top of that, while DV is 49 models, Medge is currently 39 models and a massive terrain sprue (unlocked in $14 time), and a card game, and way more tokens and extras, and it is still £5 cheaper in the UK and $10 cheaper in the US. A better price comparison with GW would be one of their army boxes where you get the multi-part, multi-pose models, with multiple weapon options, and then it is a no-brainer which is better raw value.
insaniak wrote: His shoulder isn't that wide. Compare it to the left shoulder, and look at how the shoulder pads are sitting... His right elbow is out and raised, and so most of that apparent width is just the way the shoulder pad is sitting on the upper arm.
If that's the case then what the heck is going on with that forearm? I thought it was there because his arm was coming straight down. If the arm is angled out slightly then that means his forearms are monstrously huge.
The forearms do look to be the same size as the heads, which is...odd. Add in legs and body proportions and shoulders set with a spirit level which just mean, to me, that the Epirian Contractors just look off.
@Legoburner, fair call on the DV and MEdge box comparison. What I would say is the DV plastics are arguably some of the best monopose push fit miniatures ever released and some of the MEdge miniatures seemingly have limited options in terms of customisation, The Angel has one head and one set of tentacle leg things, without having to resort to a hobby knife. As for other comparisons I would hope that the MEdge rules are far more elegant and balanced than the 40K ones.
I really wish that the KS Campaign had inspired me to back the project but it just falls short for me. But given the work that the creators have put into MEdge (the background, rules, minis, card stock etc etc) over a course of years I can understand why some of the reaction to criticism and advice has been viewed as overly defensive.
The thing is this is just the start of the MEdge universe, to expect any new game to be perfect from the start is overly ambitious, hopefully the KS is a brilliant learning tool for the creators and the game goes from strength to strength as a result of it.
The right shoulder of the guy on the left is half the width of his torso.
His shoulder isn't that wide. Compare it to the left shoulder, and look at how the shoulder pads are sitting... His right elbow is out and raised, and so most of that apparent width is just the way the shoulder pad is sitting on the upper arm.
Sure looks total natural
I guess Bob's shoulder gate is real Anyway if the Eperians are modeled after Arnold Schwarzenegger it make sense other wise the proportions of the shoulders, upper and under arms are off.
Acknowledgement is the first step to healing!
And talking about exo skeletons Anvil industries afterlife line has some nice Exo-suits or exo appendages in their line.
I said I was going to have my own go at an exo-suit and I have, but I can't say I'm happy with where it's sitting at the moment. I was going for something inspired by the Scarecrows and by Command and Conquer's Zone Troopers and Zone Raiders.
If anyone would like to throw their two cents in, I'd like to hear some outside opinions.
Mymearan wrote: As an answer to bob's post, for me it's all about the miniature design. There has been a lot (too much imo) of talk about how technically complex the sprues are, and how well the minis go together... and honestly I don't care. First and foremost I want the miniatures to look amazing, no matter how they are produced. And they don't. I get a 90s feel from most of the ME minis, in terms of design sensibilities, sculpt detail, posing etc. The golden standard for me when it comes to plastic is stuff like GW or Kingdom Death, and ME isn't even close to being in the same ballpark as those. It's a whole different league, no matter how many sliding moulds have been used. The rules sound very cool, the fluff interesting, but none of that matters if I don't like the models. That's the sad truth of it in my case.
It also doesn't help that the Angel was hyped, and then when shown, was revealed to be... well, my favorite quote was "So that thing can take the form of whatever it wants... and it chose this?"
legoburner wrote: The majority who have passed on the kickstarter have largely done so for anti-kickstarter reasons and most people start games by word of mouth rather than being exposed to it.
With all due respect, is the bolded part above based on anecdotal observations or on a poll where respondents can choose one or more answers?
I have passed on the Kickstarter personally because I am overwhelmingly not a fan of the sculpts nor the rules.
I have backed approximately 50 other Kickstarters.
But that is my anecdotal evidence.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
insaniak wrote: This, to be honest, is where a lot of the perceived problem is coming from. There's this small group of people who dislike aspects of the project who seem to take any disagreement with their opinion as censure, dismissal, or the work of paid shills, rather than as simply the presentation of a differing opinion.
You have totally invented this. Paid shills, really? True, I dislike the overwhelming majority of this project. I was critical at first because I did care; now I simply do not, so I don't really post anymore. In the News thread, I was the first person to post a negative impression and apparently caused a huge flurry of activity behind the scenes. I was asked to not be critical of anything in the News thread, and Bob created this one. It was apparent that the creators simply don't care for input, as the design work is already done and the rules are already done. Therefore, there's zero community input, which is fine, and when that became apparent, I stopped contributing.
I do not believe this is the case at all. As has been stated numerous times, everything is ready to go and will ship quite soon. We've got hard plastic models that are ready to ship, and rules that have been previewed.
That would be (and is) completely normal discussion in any other KS thread. In the ME thread, however...
It would have been off-topic in any other thread as well, for exactly the reason stated.
A certain amount of off-topic chatter is generally tolerated, but if it looks like it's going to divert the thread from the actual discussion, it's better to take it elsewhere. My request to do that in this case wasn't an attempt to stifle discussion (or I would have just said to stop it, rather than to take it elsewhere) but simply to move it somewhere it could continue without muddying the Kickstarter thread.
I don't believe it would have. We were never asked to take conversation about Shadokesh or Space Soviets out of the Dreamforge thread. We were never told to take wishlisting about Abyssals or nature elementals out of KoW threads. I don't mean the current threads, either, but back when those concepts were considered way off possibilities.
Have you seen the last few pages of discussion in the Mantic Sci Fi N&R / Warpath pre-KS news thread? It is entirely devoted to criticism of the alpha rules,
1) The Kickstarter thread: where we talk about stuff going on directly to do with the kickstarter.
2) The fluff/background/wishlisting thread (aka: this thread): everything related to the game and universe itself.
This thread has now devolved into lots of off-topic talk that should be thread #3: "the mods are preventing me from saying anything bad about the game" and "thread #1 and thread #2 are moderated worse than all other threads".
That topic is OT in either thread since it doesn't have anything to do with the actual subjects in either thread. If people are scared of persecution I will gladly volunteer to throw up a "Are MODs agents of SAS? Click here and find out!" thread either in discussion or Nuts & Bolts (whichever would be more appropriate) so that nobody else has to worry about biting the bullet.
AlexHolker wrote: I said I was going to have my own go at an exo-suit and I have, but I can't say I'm happy with where it's sitting at the moment. I was going for something inspired by the Scarecrows and by Command and Conquer's Zone Troopers and Zone Raiders.
If anyone would like to throw their two cents in, I'd like to hear some outside opinions.
I will say a few things that came to my mind from seeing this. Mind you, I usually look at things from a practical point of view.
1. I am very happy that you made the actual hands of the wearer different to the hands of the suit, as it makes far more sense that way.
2. I like the idea of having a kind of a cupola around the head instead of a helmet, but I think it needs far more armour, as now it looks way too vulnerable.
3. I get that you tried to achieve a more feminine look with the waist, but the power armour looks like it is having problems carrying the weight of the upper body with such a small core.
In the News thread, I was the first person to post a negative impression and apparently caused a huge flurry of activity behind the scenes. I was asked to not be critical of anything in the News thread, and Bob created this one. It was apparent that the creators simply don't care for input, as the design work is already done and the rules are already done. Therefore, there's zero community input, which is fine, and when that became apparent, I stopped contributing.
...snip...
Disappointing if I read that right [being asked to stop criticism in a Kicstarter thread]. Though if true, I suppose it makes sense commercially if SAS leverage their unique position to control the discussion somewhat. But, surely they'd have anticipated criticism and be in a position to deal with it head on? Look at the average Mantic KS thread or even the Mierce thread. Some of the comments are positively toxic and hostile, yet they still fund. I mean, this is a commercial product and it was bound to be reviewed by myriad individuals in time.
I was critical at first because I did care; now I simply do not, so I don't really post anymore.
... snip ...
Yeah, that's how I feel. My interest went from "Ooo interesting" through to "surely they're not production pieces" and then on to "they're doing what" and finally to "hurry up and let this KS finish".
What exactly is it they're doing that's causing more heartburn in people? I mean, I can understand that they tried to deflect criticism in the beginning, but how exactly have things gotten worse? They doubled the content of the starter, they put up buttons to close the ads, they've cut back on mod commentary significantly since it seems that commenting with the MOD tag immediately seems to be equated with helicopter'ing the thread. What great sin has SAS/Dakka done recently that were saying "they did WHAT now?" I seriously hope none of these commenters play GW products, because they're liable to have a heart attack sometime in the near future.
Accolade wrote: What exactly is it they're doing that's causing more heartburn in people? I mean, I can understand that they tried to deflect criticism in the beginning, but how exactly have things gotten worse? They doubled the content of the starter, they put up buttons to close the ads, they've cut back on mod commentary significantly since it seems that commenting with the MOD tag immediately seems to be equated with helicopter'ing the thread. What great sin has SAS/Dakka done recently that were saying "they did WHAT now?" I seriously hope none of these commenters play GW products, because they're liable to have a heart attack sometime in the near future.
I think the "perceived" ignorance and downplaying of critique on mostly design aspects of miniatures as far as i can see.
Accolade wrote: What exactly is it they're doing that's causing more heartburn in people? I mean, I can understand that they tried to deflect criticism in the beginning, but how exactly have things gotten worse? They doubled the content of the starter, they put up buttons to close the ads, they've cut back on mod commentary significantly since it seems that commenting with the MOD tag immediately seems to be equated with helicopter'ing the thread. What great sin has SAS/Dakka done recently that were saying "they did WHAT now?" I seriously hope none of these commenters play GW products, because they're liable to have a heart attack sometime in the near future.
I think the "perceived" ignorance and downplaying of critique on mostly design aspects of miniatures as far as i can see.
In other kick-starter threads you will note almost toxic spew back and forth, with people defending the good of the product and others criticizing or attacking the product's flaws. At the start of this, it was made sterile too quickly and too fast. That along with the above has basically made the thread go from the traditional, to just quiet silence. Normally even the mods get a bit dirty in the discussion, though they lack that here, which IMO makes it appear like the helicoptering people have been calling out. (When in reality, they are probably just supporting this product due to wanting it, or whatever stake they have in it.)
I guess to re-iterate, it's as if you are leaving a bar in the wild west, and instead of walking out to see two cowboys dueling and a flurry of onlookers, the town is instead deserted and tumbleweed is the only thing moving about. This is the only metaphor I can think of concerning the discussion now.
However, in SAS defense, they did fund marvelously. I have touched on this briefly before but, you go see Zed's post as Zed did a much, much better job with his post.
Also, to clarify. While I feel this way, I did ultimately back as I feel as if Dakka should have my continued support for what they offer and provide. While this KS has it's flaws, all KS have flaws and I honestly felt as if the product and team was worth supporting. I'm also not for seeing start-up dreams crushed, though that is off topic to say the least.
Edit: Would it be wrong to draw comparison from this KS fund amount to others? For instance, the Titanforge Terran Marine KS or whatever it was called, made 45k at the last second, and it was critically reviewed and based on their previous KS experiences (I wouldn't know as I wasn't around for those,) apparently they didn't do well by their customers. Yet, until this week or last this KS appeared to not be in a position to break the 45k wall.
What has plagued me is, why? This is a new company, the product is done, their employees are reputable and actually apart of the war-gaming scene, unlike most (yes, I'm aware that if it is done, it can't be changed.) Was it a lack of advertisement? I feel as if that is the only thing that TF one had on this.
I feel like this should have exploded and been double this. I mean, just look at the Raging Heros KS amount, and how they failed to even ship product on time.
Sorry for the rambling, I just wonder if anyone else has picked up on this. Also, it's early morning so forgive me if there are any logical fallacies or if this doesn't make sense/is overly melancholic.
Edit #2: I realize now this is probably more apt a post for the first thread, however, I was merely trying to reply to comments above me. My bad.
I have been following this since day one. Why people have been critical of this kick starter is beyond me.
The people that provide this website have put forward a game that addresses the bitchin of what is wrong with GW and have copped flak for it.
Yes they have not put forward the perfect game on the first go however; they have put forward an awesome concept and should be praised for this. I mean really, they took a chance and have put through a solid product.
You dont like the model that is fine, but some of us do. If we wanted to play the perfect game we would play yours..... Wait a sec you dont have a game do you. So lets not knock those that got off their ass and did something.
Everyone is entiltled to their opion but please, if you dont like it dont come to this thread to hang gak on it.
Necro wrote: I have been following this since day one. Why people have been critical of this kick starter is beyond me.
The people that provide this website have put forward a game that addresses the bitchin of what is wrong with GW and have copped flak for it.
Yes they have not put forward the perfect game on the first go however; they have put forward an awesome concept and should be praised for this. I mean really, they took a chance and have put through a solid product.
You dont like the model that is fine, but some of us do. If we wanted to play the perfect game we would play yours..... Wait a sec you dont have a game do you. So lets not knock those that got off their ass and did something.
Everyone is entiltled to their opion but please, if you dont like it dont come to this thread to hang gak on it.
So by that logic I have to be a painter to critic a piece of art? Oh wait... right. Also, by your logic the whole "vote with your wallet," thing applies. Which it appears by the comments that some definitely have.
Also, in the future I'd try to point out to who you are directing that to.
Necro wrote: I have been following this since day one. Why people have been critical of this kick starter is beyond me.
The people that provide this website have put forward a game that addresses the bitchin of what is wrong with GW and have copped flak for it.
Yes they have not put forward the perfect game on the first go however; they have put forward an awesome concept and should be praised for this. I mean really, they took a chance and have put through a solid product.
You dont like the model that is fine, but some of us do. If we wanted to play the perfect game we would play yours..... Wait a sec you dont have a game do you. So lets not knock those that got off their ass and did something.
Everyone is entiltled to their opion but please, if you dont like it dont come to this thread to hang gak on it.
First, this thread was specifically created for criticism because it was unwelcome in the main Kickstarter thread.
Second, the miniatures are really not that good.
Third, the rules are really not that good.
Note: If you had read this thread from the beginning, you would see that all three of these points have been discussed, and that, in fact, your post is entirely off-topic to the thread at hand.
Fourth, your post almost reads like a high-school-level course on "identify the logical fallacies".
And your post reads like 'I honestly believe I get to impose my tastes and ideas on others and am extremely confused and angry when people don't fall in line. I am super special and I know better than anyone else'.
And just a general statement here:
Like it, hate it. It doesn't matter, you do what you want. But when you start stating your opinions as fact, whether positive or negative, you become completely useless to discuss anything with. White Knights and Haters are entrenched and toxic to any real conversation. Your mind is made up, that's cool, but if you get a bug up your bonnet that people don't see it your way as if that is offensive in and of itself, then you have issues, whoever you are.
The idea that these threads have been overly moderated is a joke. You are confused, moderation means taking moderating actions via the powers only mods have. It means suspending and banning people, erasing offensive posts and such. No one was moderated, not one post has been removed, anywhere. What you have is a bunch of mods speaking as themselves as consumers just like anyone else. I know that a lot of people can't handle that, Mods being people with opinions and an interest in the hobby, but there you are. You can say that so many mods make you uncomfortable, especially if you really believe that they are just waiting to ban you the second you peep. I get that, really. But the FACT is that it never happened, and never will. They have been hands off to the point of it being a mistake in my opinion, because some of you surely broke the rules and were real donkey-caves at some points. So... don't spin this yarn you got moderated to death the entire time, because you absolutely, positively didn't.
The idea that the conversation has been sanitized to be universally positive and all criticism stamped out is very demonstrably false. All you have to do is read. Yes, one mod answered defensively of the product many times and rebutted other peoples opinions with his own. A lot. But argueing/debating is not moderating. The tone of things has been overwhelmingly crappy precisely because SAS/Mods took the high road and let from what I can see 8-10 people make a daily hobby of crapping on this venture while pretending to be 'helping' - without doing anything in response but giving polite responses and doing their best to address the things they could, and admitting they can't change the things they can't. It's not what some of you wanted to hear, but just because they can't accommodate you doesn't mean they are gakking on you or not hearing you. They may not be able to change something, they may not agree with you at all. That is something they are allowed to do btw, not agree with you personally. It doesn't make them jerks. If they listened and considered that is pretty good already if you ask me.
So honestly, you guys should have every right to like this, or not. You have every right to speak for yourselves within the general, universal rules of this site. What you shouldn't be allowed to do, in my opinion, is turn your opinions into facts and repeatedly warp the conversation in a malicious manner by claiming to be victims when you are anything but.
My 2 cents.
Moving onto happier things, hey, a heck of a lot of pledges past 24hrs! Looking like full bases may happen, and that for me was one of the things I really didn't care for. I think that will be a big help to the game and for modellers, and I certainly think the opportunities for making cool poses that leverage the HIPS plastic will explode once you have base scenery options to play off of... A Hunter busting through a wall, Angels GS'd to be flowing between boulders and whatnot with a little GS work. Could be very cool indeed IMHO.
In your opinion. I like the majority of what I've seen, and what I don't like, I feel I can easily modify via third party parts (which is an aspect of the hobby I enjoy).
Third, the rules are really not that good.
Again, in your opinion. I am liking what I am seeing. I haven't had any practice games yet (have you?), but if there is something I'm not liking, I'll be able to provide feedback since many of the rules are still in beta. Are they perfect? Probably not, I have yet to find a game that is (even Malifaux, my favorite game, has rules that I don't particularly care for).
tl:dr: Your opinions are not facts. Nor are they shared by everyone.
For the record, here's my post about starting a different thread:
Manchu wrote: Guys, let's please keep it on-topic. If you want to start a thread comparing miniatures across companies, please start one in Dakka Discussion. Thanks.
It was in response to someone posting a ton of huge images of non-MEdge miniatures in the MEdge N&R thread. This has really been blown out of proportion, especially considering users have not stopped or been stopped from criticising MEdge in the N&R thread.
MajorTom11 wrote: And your post reads like 'I honestly believe I get to impose my tastes and ideas on others and am extremely confused and angry when people don't fall in line. I am super special and I know better than anyone else'.
And just a general statement here:
Like it, hate it. It doesn't matter, you do what you want. But when you start stating your opinions as fact, whether positive or negative, you become completely useless to discuss anything with. White Knights and Haters are entrenched and toxic to any real conversation. Your mind is made up, that's cool, but if you get a bug up your bonnet that people don't see it your way as if that is offensive in and of itself, then you have issues, whoever you are.
The idea that these threads have been overly moderated is a joke. You are confused, moderation means taking moderating actions via the powers only mods have. It means suspending and banning people, erasing offensive posts and such. No one was moderated, not one post has been removed, anywhere. What you have is a bunch of mods speaking as themselves as consumers just like anyone else. I know that a lot of people can't handle that, Mods being people with opinions and an interest in the hobby, but there you are. You can say that so many mods make you uncomfortable, especially if you really believe that they are just waiting to ban you the second you peep. I get that, really. But the FACT is that it never happened, and never will. They have been hands off to the point of it being a mistake in my opinion, because some of you surely broke the rules and were real donkey-caves at some points. So... don't spin this yarn you got moderated to death the entire time, because you absolutely, positively didn't.
The idea that the conversation has been sanitized to be universally positive and all criticism stamped out is very demonstrably false. All you have to do is read. Yes, one mod answered defensively of the product many times and rebutted other peoples opinions with his own. A lot. But argueing/debating is not moderating. The tone of things has been overwhelmingly crappy precisely because SAS/Mods took the high road and let from what I can see 8-10 people make a daily hobby of crapping on this venture while pretending to be 'helping' - without doing anything in response but giving polite responses and doing their best to address the things they could, and admitting they can't change the things they can't. It's not what some of you wanted to hear, but just because they can't accommodate you doesn't mean they are gakking on you or not hearing you. They may not be able to change something, they may not agree with you at all. That is something they are allowed to do btw, not agree with you personally. It doesn't make them jerks. If they listened and considered that is pretty good already if you ask me.
So honestly, you guys should have every right to like this, or not. You have every right to speak for yourselves within the general, universal rules of this site. What you shouldn't be allowed to do, in my opinion, is turn your opinions into facts and repeatedly warp the conversation in a malicious manner by claiming to be victims when you are anything but.
My 2 cents.
Moving onto happier things, hey, a heck of a lot of pledges past 24hrs! Looking like full bases may happen, and that for me was one of the things I really didn't care for. I think that will be a big help to the game and for modellers, and I certainly think the opportunities for making cool poses that leverage the HIPS plastic will explode once you have base scenery options to play off of... A Hunter busting through a wall, Angels GS'd to be flowing between boulders and whatnot with a little GS work. Could be very cool indeed IMHO.
I think I'd like to put this on a large placard and start using it to install order about these parts...
Gather around kiddies and let me expand your minds...
A private forum isn't a democracy, a private forum is one of those islands ruled over by someone in aviator shades, big hat and far too many medals, it can be a great place or a terrible place, depending on how El Presidente's police carry out the law (and the suggestion that the mods on this forum are heavy handed is absolutely Grade A fething laughable, they are an exceptionally tolerant and decent bunch, the whining in this thread about their bias and draconian behavior is total bollocks). Now this privately owned island belongs to someone, well, a couple of someones, and they've decided to go into business, so they put up some billboards.
That's entirely their prerogative, and if you are the sort of delicate flower who can't possibly cope with that because your sensitive (and deluded) brain is under the impression that you're offense at someone advertising their wares on THEIR OWN WEBSITE causes you to get the vapors, well I do declare that you should ship your arse elsewhere...
Similarly, bitching that you don't like this and that about the content is fine, but finding yourself surprised that your personal opinion isn't treated as gospel, or that your method of expression is dismissed for the bleating it is, leaves noone to blame but yourselves.
This just in, Dakka is making a game, Dakka is also allowing you to post your criticisms on Dakka, and you're still complaining that Dakka isn't doing enough for you to 'express yourself' because of the way in which you're being asked to voice your criticisms...
MeanGreenStompa you have shown me the light! Critique is bad! GW is not overpriced, their designs are not lackluster, Restic and Finecrap is awesome, Kickstarters delivering 2 years past their promise date is just means were are impatient, And the shoulders and arms designs of the eperians is just misunderstood artistic expressions
You are completely missing the point. You can keep saying people are telling you not to criticize. But you are playing the victim, because you can criticize all you want.
Just have the sense to realize your opinions are not facts, and if you state them as such, you are combative, entrenched and toxic. Don't come to a forum if you aren't willing to entertain that other people may feel differently. Start a blog dude.
Or, be a civil, polite person and put 'I think' in front of stuff and you will probably find your critique is heard, respected and engaged with. You can criticize til you are blue in the face. Forcing your conclusions on everyone without recourse is not critique, it is bullying and self centered garbage.
Jehan-reznor wrote: MeanGreenStompa you have shown me the light! Critique is bad! GW is not overpriced, their designs are not lackluster, Restic and Finecrap is awesome, Kickstarters delivering 2 years past their promise date is just means were are impatient, And the shoulders and arms designs of the eperians is just misunderstood artistic expressions
No, critique is fine, personal opinions stated as 'truth' is being a gakker. Cheerleading for a downfall and fluttering your fan and sneering is also being a gakker. Several people in this thread read like petulant gakkers.
This isn't GW's forum, GW, when it had a forum, tolerated no 'critique' at all and baned you if you tried it. Dakka is not some draconian regime, it's about as tolerant a forum as I've ever found online, that's why I remain here when I've long ago left others.
GW's designs aren't all lackluster, I personally believe most of their designs are bloody great.
I don't like the shoulders on the Eperians, but once I saw them painted in a non-metallic that didn't draw the eye, I disliked them a whole lot less. And whilst we're comparing to GW, the Catachans are, in my opinion, a good deal worse. For a company starting up and launching a boxed set, I think Medge is looking very good and look forward to seeing some factions that appeal to me personally in the future.
No, critique is fine, personal opinions stated as 'truth' is being a gakker. Cheerleading for a downfall and fluttering your fan and sneering is also being a gakker. Several people in this thread read like petulant gakkers.
GakkerGakker
I think people feel more open to all out flaming the project because they feel like they own a small part of it "Oh I post on Dakka, I totally have a say in this!" despite what their views on the Modding in the official thread.
I also think that it looks like MEdge got a lot more criticism that it actually did because it seems to be the same names repeating the same things over and over across multiple pages.
I'm personally looking forward to this little group putting the perfect game together, with the perfect sculpts and perfect, completely original background
Well done to the SAS staffers for their adult responses and reasoning. That is how companies should react to negative things online!
MajorTom11 wrote: And your post reads like 'I honestly believe I get to impose my tastes and ideas on others and am extremely confused and angry when people don't fall in line. I am super special and I know better than anyone else'.
And just a general statement here:
Like it, hate it. It doesn't matter, you do what you want. But when you start stating your opinions as fact, whether positive or negative, you become completely useless to discuss anything with. White Knights and Haters are entrenched and toxic to any real conversation. Your mind is made up, that's cool, but if you get a bug up your bonnet that people don't see it your way as if that is offensive in and of itself, then you have issues, whoever you are.
Are you responding to my post, or the one I was satirizing that I replied to?
Wait, you are just reiterating the post I quoted: " if you dont like it dont come to this thread to hang gak on it. "
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MajorTom11 wrote: The idea that these threads have been overly moderated is a joke.
You are correct, this thread has not been; the N&R thread has been, with private PM's sent to members of Dakka telling them not to criticize the game within the N&R thread. So that is not moderation?
MajorTom11 wrote: And your post reads like 'I honestly believe I get to impose my tastes and ideas on others and am extremely confused and angry when people don't fall in line. I am super special and I know better than anyone else'.
And just a general statement here:
Like it, hate it. It doesn't matter, you do what you want. But when you start stating your opinions as fact, whether positive or negative, you become completely useless to discuss anything with. White Knights and Haters are entrenched and toxic to any real conversation. Your mind is made up, that's cool, but if you get a bug up your bonnet that people don't see it your way as if that is offensive in and of itself, then you have issues, whoever you are.
Are you responding to my post, or the one I was satirizing that I replied to?
Wait, you are just reiterating the post I quoted: " if you dont like it dont come to this thread to hang gak on it. "
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MajorTom11 wrote: The idea that these threads have been overly moderated is a joke.
You are correct, this thread has not been; the N&R thread has been, with private PM's sent to members of Dakka telling them not to criticize the game within the N&R thread. So that is not moderation?
BS Judgedog. Complete fabrication. Mod participation in a discussion does not equal acts of moderation. If you have insecurities and the tag alone means you feel constantly threatened, that's on you. Your FEELING that you MAYBE have been moderated in this thread is completely subjective and your own. The FACT is that you haven't, nor has anyone else.
Regarding the PM's, I have no real comment on these PM's you say you received, or your interpretation of them. I didn't see so I can't comment. But, even if I take how you interpreted them as 100% correct (which I have some doubts on based on your general interpretations of Mod action as stated), sounds like someone asked you something, you said no, and NO MODERATION actually happened lol, or we wouldn't need vague allusions, you would be able to go 'Right here, in public!' and I would say nothing. If the best you can do is point to 2 posts asking to keep things on topic out of 100 plus pages, with no warnings, bans, suspensions or otherwise going on, then get off it.
The only, thing, the ONLY thing ever said was if you are going to spend 6 weeks harping on 1 model (general 'you') for aesthetic purposes, please move it to a discussion dedicated to that. The main thread is focused on the business of the kickstarter, and really, it shouldn't take a giant intellectual leap to understand that with a project of this size, segregating disucussions a bit so there isn't a 180 page N&R mega-thread that is unfollowable and largely off-topic to the stated purpose of the thread is a good idea. So, you were not asked to censor your taste or opinions, but to create another thread dedicated to that specific type of review and discussion which is exactly what was done, and said thread has been 100% unmoderated to the point I think it was a mistake to be so light handed with some posters at certain times. That is what happened, and it's black and white.
Ironically, the only real attempt to stop criticism I have seen has been by people speaking in the same fashion as you who keep demanding that their own views not be argued with at all.
You: Epirians are bad sculpts and there is no way you could say there are no problems with them. (or something to that effect)
Someone else: Well, actually I like the Epirians!
You: Censorship!!! Moderation!!!
SAS, Dakka and the MODS have all heard your critiques, most of which, if not all, have been perfectly valid and legitimate if you are speaking for yourself and engaged with you in discussion. Nothing you or anyone else wrote has been deleted. No one did anything to you. At all. Or anyone else for that matter. The only people being asked to stop saying something, ironically, is people who say they like it lol.
So, don't confuse people asking you to stop dictating their own opinions, or not requiring your personal approval of their own ideas and thoughts, as saying you can't also have your say. Critique is fine. A gakky ass attitude that is bordering on spam in it's repetitiveness is not.
So, look, I'll write my own critique of things I don't like -
Epirian chaps don't thrill me either. I dislike western motif's in sci-fi though I understand the vibe that was trying to be captured. Oddly, doesn't bother me in the concept art. I am not a big western guy so I am not sure the chaps would have really stuck out to me until mentioned though, strangely.
Upper arms on contractors do have problems in proportions in my opinion, though oddly they are only noticeable at certain angles... it seems to me that the CAD artists had a very 'front/back' focus when working on them, perhaps to the detriment of the side view on them.
Tempest wrist is annoying and I would do some work to fix em on my models.
Hex bases on flyers are distracting for me for cohesiveness, I will just glue the stem to a regular base if there are spares to be had.
And there is my critique. No one will erase it, and just by saying 'in my opinion' I bet it comes off a hell of a lot differently than your versions of 'critique'. I have no problem, and neither does anyone on the staff of Dakka or SAS, with anyone feeling differently either positively or negatively. It's how you are acting and speaking, not your taste that is the problem.
So, in short, get off it with the over moderated and no critique crap, it's bunk and absolutely scientifically, objectively verifiable to be completely untrue to anyone who reads these threads start to finish who understand the difference between a mod participating in a discussion, and an act of moderation (i.e doing something only a mod can do). Otherwise, it's all just people's opinions.
Yeah, I'm super stoked too . Hit 70K and the last stretch with just a few minutes left to go, and ended up with over 800 backers!
I'm guessing discussion will now / soon end up dividing into different threads in the MEdge section, rather than being consolidated into a single thread in N&R and here. I'd love to discuss more on the rules as the beta is released!
Jehan-reznor wrote: MeanGreenStompa you have shown me the light! Critique is bad! GW is not overpriced, their designs are not lackluster, Restic and Finecrap is awesome, Kickstarters delivering 2 years past their promise date is just means were are impatient, And the shoulders and arms designs of the eperians is just misunderstood artistic expressions
No, critique is fine, personal opinions stated as 'truth' is being a gakker. Cheerleading for a downfall and fluttering your fan and sneering is also being a gakker. Several people in this thread read like petulant gakkers.
This isn't GW's forum, GW, when it had a forum, tolerated no 'critique' at all and baned you if you tried it. Dakka is not some draconian regime, it's about as tolerant a forum as I've ever found online, that's why I remain here when I've long ago left others.
GW's designs aren't all lackluster, I personally believe most of their designs are bloody great.
I don't like the shoulders on the Eperians, but once I saw them painted in a non-metallic that didn't draw the eye, I disliked them a whole lot less. And whilst we're comparing to GW, the Catachans are, in my opinion, a good deal worse. For a company starting up and launching a boxed set, I think Medge is looking very good and look forward to seeing some factions that appeal to me personally in the future.
Nobody gets this anymore?
Yes IMHO the Eperians shoulders and arms are wrong and i posted it a few times, but only because SAS doesn't seem to address it, if they would have said "we will look at it and if needed we will do a redesign on it (and the karist wrist)" you wouldn't have seen me repeat it a few times.
There are so many firms who have beautiful and realistic designs (Anvil, Dreamforge, wargames factory etcetera) so if they want to expand the range they have to address these issues. I hope when Medge becomes successful that we will see tanks, hopefully similar to this to separate them from other makers.
Spoiler:
Gunroller
And i want Medge to succeed my partner in crime didn't want to pledge, so i have to wait until it hits retail.
And I think that tank looks ridiculous... And I'm a dedicated treadhead.
Something something, something 'the beholder' ... I think those folded manga tanks look like they've already been through a major accident, I imagine them moving by an accordian-like wheezing movement, accompanied by sad hanna barbara music... Still, that's just my opinion on them.
Giving criticism on the arms, or anything, is fine, expecting them to stop and redesign at this stage in the development, when it was made clear early on that the entire thing is basically finished and ready to roll out even prior to the KS, is 'optimistic'.
And these are small details. Frankly once you have your army painted up and ready to play, noone other than the worst of the worst OCD is going to give a flying toss about wrists and so on. These details, highlighted for scrutiny on a screen, aren't going to matter one jot on the tabletop.
These aren't boutique figures, these are figures for a tabletop game, they are lightyears ahead of the clip together stuff we had in several GW editions and, again, this is a fledgling company's first forays into multipart plastics and the aesthetics of the various factions and the way they look now compared to how they're going to look in a couple of years once it's all solidified in 'lore' and the background and factions have found their feet. Give me some pig iron backpacks and headswaps and I'll have those epirians looking the way I want them in a few hours... But I can say precisely the same thing about the Cadians, and GW's had years to get them to my personal specifications!!!!
I forgot to mention i meant on the next iteration or on the next eperian release they should at least consider the critique concerning the epirian arms and the karist akward wrist.
Dreamforge, anvil and wargames factory aren't boutique miniatures either. (only Wargames factory could be considered a "big" company while the others are small). And theirs designs (taste aside) seem to be not anatomically awkward.
I see you are not a fan of the tachikoma style tanks, instant addition to the book of Grudges
I am 200% certain they will man... they may not necessarily agree with the most severity of some people's objections, but certainly, they want to do better every single time. No one is happy a potential customer is unhappy. Just a matter of realizing you can't please everyone, but you should still try
Jehan-reznor wrote: I forgot to mention i meant on the next iteration or on the next eperian release they should at least consider the critique concerning the epirian arms and the karist akward wrist.
This. I know it's already too late for the first wave but it's possible that they might be willing to sacrifice aesthetic continuity in favour of doing the job right the next time around.
I just wonder, what in the world makes you two think they aren't listening and will not make improvements next time? They'd have to be mental not to want to improve the marketability of their product. Anyone in business would have to be mental not to.
I completely agree with you, but phrasing it like it is even up for debate when they already 100% confirmed they will be doing this off the bat weeks ago is odd to me. Will the next models be perfect? Probably not to everyone, that's kinda impossible to achieve. BUT certainly they will be looking with redoubled scrutiny at the models when new ones come up, as has been said.
That issue is a non-issue in so far as their intention to consider EVERYTHING that was said, positive and negative.
MajorTom11 wrote: I just wonder, what in the world makes you two think they aren't listening and will not make improvements next time?
They deliberately chose not to even make it possible to do so with the Kaddar Nova, the Shadow Walkers and the Epirian Handlers. They could have shown WIPs during the campaign, but they chose to show nothing at all rather than show something early enough that it could be changed before it went to tooling. So far, the strongest evidence that they are willing to listen to criticism is that they'll let you beta test their rules for them, if you paid them for the privilege.
MajorTom11 wrote: I just wonder, what in the world makes you two think they aren't listening and will not make improvements next time?
They deliberately chose not to even make it possible to do so with the Kaddar Nova, the Shadow Walkers and the Epirian Handlers. They could have shown WIPs during the campaign, but they chose to show nothing at all rather than show something early enough that it could be changed before it went to tooling. So far, the strongest evidence that they are willing to listen to criticism is that they'll let you beta test their rules for them, if you paid them for the privilege.
See, my impression of the Kaddar Nova/Bot Handler/Shadow Walker was that they were so far along that they couldn't have made any changes, no matter what input from the community. At least not without major delays.
I would have liked to have seen WIPs, but I am sure it was mentioned somewhere that even though they weren't complete they were finished as far as design went, and it was basically behind the scenes production and tooling that had to be completed.
Any changes to the design at this late stage would have slowed things down too much and SAS did not want to do that.
Edit: Ninja'ed by Tibbsy, who said exactly what I was thinking but in much fewer words
I've been thinking about this thread a bit the last few days, and had this question for folks like Alex / Bob. Isn't revealing new releases (even if they are not finished), rather than showing something at an early concept phase and seeking community feedback, how most miniature companies functionally operate?
The company I always think of when I consider this project is Dropzone Commander, who made their game before Kickstarter was really a thing, and just straight up revealed and launched it. People didn't love everything, but they probably did have a higher success rate of how much people liked most sculpts (it helped that they started out in resin, and only went to injection molded starter sets later, so the insane detail was easier to achieve).
Every other major miniatures company I can think of does it this way, too - GW, PP, Wyrd... sure, sometimes you'll get to see a WIP from the latter two, but not for feedback. PP recently released a WIP of a fist from the new troll character warbeast, and everyone assumed it was a Gargantuan since the fist was so huge. They've been criticized for their proportions before of course, but despite that reaction here they released the model without any changes - the WIP was just to tease people that it was coming.
Personally, your sketches Alex haven't necessarily appealed to me more than the models, and looking at the Epirian artwork they were working from, I think it looks just as good. To me, as Tom notes, the models are just the result of doing something extremely hard - injection molded plastic, and being brand new to it. Dreamforge spoiled us a bit with their first efforts, as Mark Mondragon is a demigod - but even with their kits, there are learning curve items, like how many pieces some of the parts had to be broken into.
So, I think maybe some of the difference here is you, Bob, and some others here whose opinions I quite value (cincy, Buzzsaw) see a company that isn't soliciting or listening to feedback... and I see a company that is just dealing with a production method that takes months, and so there is a lot of momentum to the learning curve - things get incorporated, but not immediately like a resin company could (even though most of them don't!) since their molds have a life of something like 20-50 casts and can then be replaced, not 20,000 - 50,000!
Regarding the new models - again, my understanding of the process is, those models are probably already with the toolmaker being analyzed for toolability - look how long there was a delay between Dreamforge showing off models and then getting the plastic parts! So, even if they show WIPs of those (which I would love to see) everything in this box, if it truly will deliver this year as projected, is already too far along to change due to production methods. The mistakes made so far, I simply see as learning curve items due to how hard this process is, and that they will absolutely take the feedback onboard for the future.
So, I think that's where we differ! A few of you guys who I really respect seem to think the company is not listening, but it's more like, a company that is listening but these kinds of corrections will only show up 6+ months down the line. But if they are going to act like any of the major miniature companies out there, WIPs will not be shown to then be changed based on response, but just to tease releases - and behind the scenes, they'll take on the feedback and make adjustments for the best commercial result. Given the reaction, you can be just about 100000000% sure that they will do everything they can to avoid the reaction to the contractors and that single wrist! But there's so much momentum with plastic design, that these improvements (which I think they would have undertaken anyway, but it's underscored by the reaction) will not be visible until models released next year.
I hope that was coherent - I really have been thinking about this a lot, and I think that might explain a bit of the different reactions here... I think we all agree on what can be improved, but the process here is a bit unlike what you see with small indy companies doing small resin casting runs, and much more like the process of the companies doing major miniatures releases and who have a longer development cycle as a result of the method, scale, etc. I'm certain they're taking the feedback onboard, but unfortunately, you'll just have to wait 6 months to see the fruit of that due to the nature of injection molding! Just look how long it's taken Mark at Dreamforge (who I am totally in love with) to get things going on the Shadokesh, as a great example of this (and I do note that he recently showed a render of them, which was awesome and I hope we'll see some renders of future MEdge releases, too).
everything that showed up in the KS is too far along into the production process to be changed, both because a bunch of cash has already been spent on it, and because production schedules are a thing... they are already working with several plastics manufacturers which will be more tricky than picking a single one just so they can get things done
if you miss your deadline to hand over files, agree to parts breakdowns or whatever you could easily wait many, many months before you reach the top of the queue again
I certainly hope they will take on board some of the criticisms of their design (eg the Karist wrist should have been spotted as a problem),
but I think we have to be prepared for them to stick to their original decisions on others like going for old skool heroic proportions rather than a more modern true scale look
while I prefer true scale/less heroic designs as mainly a painter/collector nowadays, I do admit it's easier to see what's going on at a glance at a distance on a gaming table with heroic stuff....
I see Maelstroms edge as a wargame with minis attached rather than minis with a game attached
(now in both cases the companies will care about everything, but will differ over where sacrifices have to be made to achieve the best overall experience they feel they can deliver)
RiTides wrote: I've been thinking about this thread a bit the last few days, and had this question for folks like Alex / Bob. Isn't revealing new releases (even if they are not finished), rather than showing something at an early concept phase and seeking community feedback, how most miniature companies functionally operate?
Yes, it is. But the proof is in the pudding: Dropzone Commander's PHR are interesting, aesthetically pleasing designs, and the fact that they were designed without outside assistance doesn't detract from that. Mantic, on the other hand, makes ugly models with tiny legs and thus does not deserve the same level of trust.
Personally, your sketches Alex haven't necessarily appealed to me more than the models, and looking at the Epirian artwork they were working from, I think it looks just as good.
Noted, but the Epirian Contractor concept art is nine heads tall. The miniature based on that art is something closer to 5.5 heads, so the fact that the concept does not possess the flaws introduced in the translation to a 28mm heroic scale miniature should not be surprising. Mine was intended as much more WYSIWYG concept art of 6.4 heads - like the miniature the proportions are distorted to make the head, hands and feet larger and the arms, legs and torso thicker than they would be in real life, but in a way that doesn't stand out so much as being wrong.
To me, as Tom notes, the models are just the result of doing something extremely hard - injection molded plastic, and being brand new to it.
But they're not. If people were complaining about the resolution of fine detail on the models or that the sides of the models didn't have enough detail, those are complaints that could reasonably be laid at the feet of HIPS. But those are not the things people are complaining about. Being injection-moulded plastic isn't why the Scarecrow and Hunter only have one hand, or why the Epirians' arms are as thick as their legs.
To me, as Tom notes, the models are just the result of doing something extremely hard - injection molded plastic, and being brand new to it.
But they're not. If people were complaining about the resolution of fine detail on the models or that the sides of the models didn't have enough detail, those are complaints that could reasonably be laid at the feet of HIPS. But those are not the things people are complaining about. Being injection-moulded plastic isn't why the Scarecrow and Hunter only have one hand, or why the Epirians' arms are as thick as their legs.
Of course that is why - I'll repost (some of) the considerations for making a model viable in plastic:
sprue space (hands)
mould draw angles and ease of ejection (hands, arms)
target part count
width of parts
strength of parts
clutch of parts
target number of models on each sprue
ease of assembly
posing flexibility
cross-range compatibility (including with future/unreleased models)
fit to the rules
fit to the fiction
fit to the artwork
price of the sculpt
price of the mould
revision count of the sculpt (and price of subsequent revisions)
sculptor talent
sculptor attitude, motivation and relationship
target price of the model
weight of the sprue
potential rival models in the marketplace (past present and future)
potential compatible models in the marketplace (past present and future)
losing a timed place in the tooling company's production queue
balancing release dates with ongoing company costs and risks
...and many more things.
Once again, we are sitting on a good number of models and sculpts which did not get tooled because they were not good enough (including those done by some very well known sculptors). Sure you can make an absolute perfect model, but not on the first try and not without sacrificing elsewhere in the above list, and pretty much every item that has been complained about in this thread is down to one or more of the above factors, not incompetence or errors in judgement.
The Maelstrom's Edge Kickstarter has finally finished, and we're delighted to have had 813 backers, and to have raised $70,105 towards the project. Although we put a lot of initial investment in to get the project to this point, the money from the Kickstarter is huge as it allows us to begin making purchase orders for the content of the box set, knowing that we'll have amazing backers waiting for what we've created. The campaign has also let us add lots of additional content to the box, and we're really pleased with what everyone will receive.
The last few days of funding were really exciting for us, and we're absolutely thrilled to have unlocked several key stretch goals and rewards towards the end of the Kickstarter. These include:
For reaching $45,000, every $90 pledge includes a free terrain sprue, which contains a number of different building components that you can combine with plasticard, card, foamcore or found objects to create unique buildings that share a distinctive Maelstrom's Edge style. We're delighted with the positive feedback we've had for the terrain sprue, and are really excited to see what people build with it!
As well as the main game, we've devised a space-based card game set in the Maelstrom's Edge universe, where players use their fleets to compete for resources and planets under threat from the Maelstrom. This is a complete standalone card game, and every deck included with the $90 pledge is enough for 2 players to play a game, perfect for between battles of the miniatures game!
We announced the names of some of the amazing writers who have agreed to write short stories set in the Maelstrom's Edge universe in the future, including Alastair Reynolds, Aliette de Bodard, Karin Lowachee, Jaine Fenn, Liz Williams, Rob Ziegler and Jeff Carlson, as well as more stories by our lead writers Stephen Gaskell and Tomas L. Martin. We have lots of plans for more fiction in our setting, and will be releasing new stories regularly through our website over the coming months.
For reaching $55,000, we are going to be recording 4 more audiobooks set in the Maelstrom's Edge universe, on top of 'Transit' by Stephen Gaskell, which was made available during the Kickstarter. The audiobooks will be free to all backers, and we will be sending you a link that lets you download them from the Maelstrom's Edge website as and when they are ready. Writing and recording an audiobook takes a little time so we won't be sending these immediately but you'll be the first to know when they are available!
As a reward for all of our faithful Kickstarter backers, we had a poll to see which additional model you'd like in the box set. You voted for a second Large Angel for the Karists, which we have added to what you get in the box! This additional Angel model is exclusive to our Kickstarter backers and won't be included in the retail version of the box set.
For reaching $60,000, we are able to manufacture custom bases for the larger models in the set, which have the distinctive notches on either side, to indicate where the front and rear arcs of the models are which is important to the game. In addition, it allows more posing and conversion opportunities for models mounted on bases. These new bases will be added for the 4 Spider drones, the 2 Hunter Mechs and the 2 Large Angels, in whichever pledge they were purchased. This was a really big goal for us, so we're really pleased it got unlocked!
Literally in the final moments of the Kickstarter, we reached $70,000! This amazing achievement unlocked a free digital copy of the first novel in the Maelstrom's Edge universe, Maelstrom's Edge: Faith, cowritten by the team's lead writers, Tomas L. Martin and Stephen Gaskell. This book is already finished and we will be sending a link to all our backers as soon as we get the digital distribution logistics pinned down to give you a code to download it in the format of your choosing (mobi/epub/pdf), or gift the code to a friend if you've already bought it on Amazon Kindle. Maelstrom's Edge: Faith is part one of the Battle for Zycanthus, and the second book, Maelstrom's Edge: Sacrifice, which concludes the story, is also available on Amazon Kindle for those who enjoy reading the first book! We are keen that everyone who wants to read the books can do so, so please let us know if there are other ebook formats or stores that you would like us to make the books available on.
We are giving away some free copies of the paperback versions of the novels and right now we're collecting the names and will be in contact next week to announce the people who'll be getting copies sent in the post!
If you are a backer and your credit card company has blocked the transaction to Kickstarter (or Stripe), then don't worry, your pledge will still be held and you'll get a chance to pay again before packing and shipping begins. We'll also have the capacity to add extra terrain sprues or big boxes to your pledge at that time as well!
Making the universe, game and models for Maelstrom's Edge has been a massive undertaking by our small team and we are incredibly grateful for the support we've received from all our Kickstarter backers, and friends in the wargames community. We'd like to send a special thank you to many awesome people and companies including but not limited to Kingdom Death, Dreamforge Games, Frontline Gaming, Mantic Games, Tabletop Fix, Cool Mini Or Not, Bell of Lost Souls, Beasts of War, the D6 Generation podcast, 3++, Tabletop Gaming News, theminiaturespage, Lead Adventure, Wee Gamers, 3rd Dimension Gear, and especially all the commentors on Kickstarter and Dakka for your support, questions and feedback. We've strived really hard to make Maelstrom's Edge as good as we possibly could, and are proud of what we've made.
We've had some great input from the wargames community over the last few months, and we are listening carefully to all the requests and feedback we've had so far. When we came to launch the Kickstarter, we wanted to try and get as much of the design work completed as possible, so that our backers wouldn't have to wait too long to receive the boxed game. HIPS plastic production is a incredibly time-consuming process, and if we were to start making changes to the sprue design at this point, it would delay the launch by months or even years! We've tried to address every piece of feedback we've had as much as we can, but rest assured that even when it's not possible for us to change something locked in for this initial release, we are listening for the future, and every step of the way from here we will continue to improve on the beginnings that you have helped launch.
We are now going to turn our attention to delivering on what we've promised and getting the box sets into the hands of our backers by our delivery date of December this year, and then to launch in retail in early 2016. Keeping our backers and supporters up to date is really important to us, and we will be putting a tracker on the Maelstrom's Edge website ( http://www.maelstromsedge.com ) to keep people informed of the status of the project and the completion of key milestones. The money we've raised in the Kickstarter also lets us start planning for the future, and we have already started designing additional models for both the Epirian Foundation and Karist Enclave to add to what comes in the box set, as well as three new factions, the advanced technology of the Artarian Remnant Fleet, the rebels and revolutionaries of the Broken and the strange posthuman Kaigus Pact. Whilst these new additions will take time to develop and design, the Kickstarter funds allow us to start working on the future releases earlier than we would have been able to otherwise. In the near future we are focusing on ensuring that our backers get the content they have pledged for as quickly as possible, but we have lots of plans to expand the game of Maelstrom's Edge in the future!
Thank you all once again for your support and feedback and we look forward to getting the box set of Maelstrom's Edge in your hands very soon.
RiTides wrote: I've been thinking about this thread a bit the last few days, and had this question for folks like Alex / Bob. Isn't revealing new releases (even if they are not finished), rather than showing something at an early concept phase and seeking community feedback, how most miniature companies functionally operate?
Yes, it is. But the proof is in the pudding: Dropzone Commander's PHR are interesting, aesthetically pleasing designs, and the fact that they were designed without outside assistance doesn't detract from that. Mantic, on the other hand, makes ugly models with tiny legs and thus does not deserve the same level of trust.
Personally, your sketches Alex haven't necessarily appealed to me more than the models, and looking at the Epirian artwork they were working from, I think it looks just as good.
Noted, but the Epirian Contractor concept art is nine heads tall. The miniature based on that art is something closer to 5.5 heads, so the fact that the concept does not possess the flaws introduced in the translation to a 28mm heroic scale miniature should not be surprising. Mine was intended as much more WYSIWYG concept art of 6.4 heads - like the miniature the proportions are distorted to make the head, hands and feet larger and the arms, legs and torso thicker than they would be in real life, but in a way that doesn't stand out so much as being wrong.
To me, as Tom notes, the models are just the result of doing something extremely hard - injection molded plastic, and being brand new to it.
But they're not. If people were complaining about the resolution of fine detail on the models or that the sides of the models didn't have enough detail, those are complaints that could reasonably be laid at the feet of HIPS. But those are not the things people are complaining about. Being injection-moulded plastic isn't why the Scarecrow and Hunter only have one hand, or why the Epirians' arms are as thick as their legs.
See... you are doing it again. Presenting your opinion as facts.
Sure, you know exactly how to fix these things FOR YOU. This absolutely doesn't mean that your solutions work for everyone, or that they are in any way better to anyone BUT YOU.
Guess what dude, I didn't like your re-designs at all. Especially the exo-armor, it looks like a power suit but your hands solution looks stuck on and awkward at best to me, unpractical too. So you can talk as if you know 100% for sure how to 'do it right', but I wouldn't buy your idea. It's nothing to do with the proportions, it was just a bad concept in my eyes, especially the fore-arms and the clear 'outbreak' head (that would be super unfeasable on a miniature btw). So, you are already losing your perfect score. I'm glad two people gave you a pat on the back for it, and it is cool you went to the effort, but it seems at least a few just politely refrained from gakking on it. Funny how the comments of 4 or 5 people can fool you into thinking you are a majority when it may well be that others, potentially many, are too exhausted by a certain kind of attitude to speak eh? Food for thought.
The difference between you and I is I'm not trying to speak for anyone else. My critique and views are just my own and I know it. There is a big difference between saying 'I didn't like your designs at all' and 'Your designs are bad. People don't like them'. One is subjective, the other objective, and you are not an authority, sorry, to define the objective facts of the wargaming market single handedly and without feedback yourself.
If you want everyone to play the game the way you play, I can come on here and undermine most every post you make too. I can make a daily hobby of it too. I can offer you blunt, self-important and sometimes just plain rude comments under a thin veil of 'critique'... telling you 'only I know how to fix your designs, listen to me, not the 800 other people who liked it enough to buy it. Me and my 4 pals here are not satisfied, please proceed with making your game just for me, a la carte if you would.'
It really seems there is no point to having a discussion with you, or engaging with you about this topic for anyone who doesn't agree with you. You have no room, it seems to me, to limit the importance of your own opinion vs the bigger picture. Does it mean you are wrong? Maybe not, maybe you are right about your points! I can't decide that. But it doesn't change that the way you are presenting them is really poor in my view, or that is hilariously ironic that you are complaining about people not listening to you.... that's pretty rich dude lol. Can you show me I would be wrong on those last few points? Honest question. I am sure you don't think you are behaving in the way I am describing, and you probably think I am being a jerk to you. But honestly man, I and I am sure many others here are genuinely TRYING to engage with you, but the with me or against me attitude makes it really tough to address your concerns or make you feel listened to. You can't continue to take personal offense that people don't do things 'your way' as if they promised to do it and broke your trust. You can't evaluate a production process based on nothing but how you think it should work. You have no idea what is where, how much, what the deals in place are or who is doing what. Who are you to just arbitrarily decide 'they didn't show us model x when they had time for that one'. Based on what lol, how the hell did you arrive at the conclusion, knowing nothing specific about the finish state of the production process lol?
Come on man, you gotta give a bit here, take a step back and really try to assess what you are sounding like, and leave some room for not knowing some things...
Again, nothing about this is about you not having the right to have an opinion or talk about it. It's about how you are talking to people, not what you think.
To me, as Tom notes, the models are just the result of doing something extremely hard - injection molded plastic, and being brand new to it.
But they're not. If people were complaining about the resolution of fine detail on the models or that the sides of the models didn't have enough detail, those are complaints that could reasonably be laid at the feet of HIPS. But those are not the things people are complaining about. Being injection-moulded plastic isn't why the Scarecrow and Hunter only have one hand, or why the Epirians' arms are as thick as their legs.
Of course that is why - I'll repost (some of) the considerations for making a model viable in plastic:
sprue space (hands)
mould draw angles and ease of ejection (hands, arms)
target part count
width of parts
strength of parts
clutch of parts
target number of models on each sprue
ease of assembly
posing flexibility
cross-range compatibility (including with future/unreleased models)
fit to the rules
fit to the fiction
fit to the artwork
price of the sculpt
price of the mould
revision count of the sculpt (and price of subsequent revisions)
sculptor talent
sculptor attitude, motivation and relationship
target price of the model
weight of the sprue
potential rival models in the marketplace (past present and future)
potential compatible models in the marketplace (past present and future)
losing a timed place in the tooling company's production queue
balancing release dates with ongoing company costs and risks
...and many more things.
Once again, we are sitting on a good number of models and sculpts which did not get tooled because they were not good enough (including those done by some very well known sculptors). Sure you can make an absolute perfect model, but not on the first try and not without sacrificing elsewhere in the above list, and pretty much every item that has been complained about in this thread is down to one or more of the above factors, not incompetence or errors in judgement.
So are the next wave miniatures already fixed? are we allowed to see the designs? Are we allowed to comment on them? Are the critiques of the current designs and models noted and incorporated in the next wave (designs models)?
Are these design/model issues because it was your first venture into HIPS? Or do you think we are over reacting and there is nothing wrong with your designs and we are just haters.
I feel like after Tom's replies I should just say I hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toes during the course of this thread, I do wish to clarify that I support this, I don't want to appear like a negative nancy constantly.
One thing about the rules: in a recent update, SAS described the rules as cinematic. I love that. It made the suppression mechanic click to me. From the perspective of seeking out the elegance of minimal upkeep, the tokens seem like a time burden. Now, I see the mechanic more from the perspective of ...forging a narrative. I'm really eager to houserule the suppression tokens thusly:
-Every time a token is placed on the board, the attacking player must make a sound like "pshoom", "boozh", "pkow", "blam" or "thup-thup-thup".
-Every time a token is removed, the defending player must make a sound like "ping", "pyeeoorn", "whifff", or "I ain't got time to bleed."
That should turn the perceived bug into a feature.
MajorTom11 wrote: You are completely missing the point. You can keep saying people are telling you not to criticize. But you are playing the victim, because you can criticize all you want.
Just have the sense to realize your opinions are not facts, and if you state them as such, you are combative, entrenched and toxic. Don't come to a forum if you aren't willing to entertain that other people may feel differently. Start a blog dude.
Or, be a civil, polite person and put 'I think' in front of stuff and you will probably find your critique is heard, respected and engaged with. You can criticize til you are blue in the face. Forcing your conclusions on everyone without recourse is not critique, it is bullying and self centered garbage.
Playing the victim? Or playing the consumer? When money is on the line, I bet you can find at least one marketing agency that will tell you customer opinions and perceptions matter.
Also, is it really necessary to state the disclaimer "in my opinion" in every sentence? Isn't that implied unless otherwise stated?
MajorTom11 wrote: I am 200% certain they will man... they may not necessarily agree with the most severity of some people's objections, but certainly, they want to do better every single time. No one is happy a potential customer is unhappy. Just a matter of realizing you can't please everyone, but you should still try
And a lot of the criticism would only have been stated once instead of repeated or expanded on if they had ever stated that. Instead, they gave explanationsexcuses explanations. As my wife always tells me, she doesn't want an explanation for why I did the bad thing, she wants me to understand why it was bad and try never to do it again. Potential customers are far less forgiving than spouses (excepting certain siblings-in-law). They usually don't try to make it work; they just walk away.
RiTides wrote: Edit: Ninja'ed by Tibbsy, who said exactly what I was thinking but in much fewer words
I've been thinking about this thread a bit the last few days, and had this question for folks like Alex / Bob. Isn't revealing new releases (even if they are not finished), rather than showing something at an early concept phase and seeking community feedback, how most miniature companies functionally operate?
Depends on the size of the companies. Largish companies have enough people with art training or experience to handle design feedback and revision in house (unless that company is Mantic). Smaller companies do not necessarily follow that paradigm. Certainly Paulson Minis and Dreamforge ask their backers for feedback on upcoming releases.
Besides, I'm not necessarily asking SAS to put their early designs in front of the public. I would prefer they had someone internally with the authority to say, "That needs to improve" when necessary, and before sculpts are tooled.
The company I always think of when I consider this project is Dropzone Commander, who made their game before Kickstarter was really a thing, and just straight up revealed and launched it. People didn't love everything, but they probably did have a higher success rate of how much people liked most sculpts (it helped that they started out in resin, and only went to injection molded starter sets later, so the insane detail was easier to achieve).
Every other major miniatures company I can think of does it this way, too - GW, PP, Wyrd... sure, sometimes you'll get to see a WIP from the latter two, but not for feedback. PP recently released a WIP of a fist from the new troll character warbeast, and everyone assumed it was a Gargantuan since the fist was so huge. They've been criticized for their proportions before of course, but despite that reaction here they released the model without any changes - the WIP was just to tease people that it was coming.
Companies that use Kickstarter seem to request feedback more often. Both Paulson and Dreamforge have given backers the chance to choose between options during the development phase, as in "Do you prefer number 1 or number 2?" (Remember when Mantic asked the backers to choose from two Troll concepts, and then used neither? That was almost brilliant.)
I don't know much about PP or Wyrd as I don't like those companies nor their products, but GW has an entire art department with a marketing department to keep them focused. PP and Wyrd probably have enough artistically-experienced employees or enough perspective on what sells to avoid making too many costly missteps. I guess what I'm getting at is that most companies can release minis without any external feedback because they have some sort of internal mechanism to limit the duds. Except for Mantic. And Mantic has certainly lost sales due to their reputation for putting out crap.
Personally, your sketches Alex haven't necessarily appealed to me more than the models, and looking at the Epirian artwork they were working from, I think it looks just as good. To me, as Tom notes, the models are just the result of doing something extremely hard - injection molded plastic, and being brand new to it. Dreamforge spoiled us a bit with their first efforts, as Mark Mondragon is a demigod - but even with their kits, there are learning curve items, like how many pieces some of the parts had to be broken into.
So, I think maybe some of the difference here is you, Bob, and some others here whose opinions I quite value (cincy, Buzzsaw) see a company that isn't soliciting or listening to feedback... and I see a company that is just dealing with a production method that takes months, and so there is a lot of momentum to the learning curve - things get incorporated, but not immediately like a resin company could (even though most of them don't!) since their molds have a life of something like 20-50 casts and can then be replaced, not 20,000 - 50,000!
Again, it's not so much that they didn't act on feedback to change the existing minis (because they couldn't). It's that they never acknowledged that they needed to do anything different for the next set of minis. When we ...briefly... discussed the proposed female Epirian set, there was an effort to ensure that SAS wouldn't make the same mistakes with them, but it was too off topic.
Legoburner seemed very upset when we speculated on how the Epirians ended up going to production. He insisted they were not the result of eight guys in a room. But they look like the result of eight guys in a room, especially if one of them is a drunk Gary Morley. Instead of assuring us it was just part of the learning curve, his defensive reaction just raised more doubts about what kinds of future products would pass through SAS pre-production review.
So, while SAS has been responding to criticism, it doesn't seem to be responsive to criticism.
I see Maelstroms edge as a wargame with minis attached rather than minis with a game attached
(now in both cases the companies will care about everything, but will differ over where sacrifices have to be made to achieve the best overall experience they feel they can deliver)
I see it more as a Shared Setting and a Wargame Ruleset wedded together, with miniatures coming along 9 months later.
I'll repost (some of) the considerations for making a model viable in plastic:
price of the sculpt
sculptor talent
sculptor attitude, motivation and relationship
Some of these considerations will hopefully be weighed differently in the future. Maybe it's not what you're implying, but it comes across like saving a few hundred dollars on a sculpt that tools up for hundreds of thousands of dollars of not-so-competitive product.
Once again, we are sitting on a good number of models and sculpts which did not get tooled because they were not good enough (including those done by some very well known sculptors).
Now I'm really curious.
Sure you can make an absolute perfect model, but not on the first try and not without sacrificing elsewhere in the above list, and pretty much every item that has been complained about in this thread is down to one or more of the above factors, not incompetence or errors in judgement.
It seems like a very expensive learning curve that will be attached to the Maelstrom's Edge image for a long time.
You know perhaps it had been said before but, I was looking at the Contractors I think the Epirians could have benefitted from looking more like the scarecrows.
I finally know what the back armor reminds me of. It looks sorta like the back of the white pilot suits at the start of Pacific rim.
Again, it's not so much that they didn't act on feedback to change the existing minis (because they couldn't). It's that they never acknowledged that they needed to do anything different for the next set of minis. When we ...briefly... discussed the proposed female Epirian set, there was an effort to ensure that SAS wouldn't make the same mistakes with them, but it was too off topic.
Legoburner seemed very upset when we speculated on how the Epirians ended up going to production. He insisted they were not the result of eight guys in a room. But they look like the result of eight guys in a room, especially if one of them is a drunk Gary Morley. Instead of assuring us it was just part of the learning curve, his defensive reaction just raised more doubts about what kinds of future products would pass through SAS pre-production review.
So, while SAS has been responding to criticism, it doesn't seem to be responsive to criticism.
Let me pose a scenario for you here. Assuming you were correct (and that's a big assumption), and the Epirians are the worst thing to ever hit the market since the pumbagor (and I by no means think that is the case), you have a company that has dropped a sum in the six figures on bringing a new range of models to the market. They're running a kick-starter to drum up financial support for the new company, trying to get people excited about their game, and so forth.
What do you think the odds are that they'll do what you want, which appears to be holding up their hands and going, 'lol, sorry guys, our stuff is gak. Buy it anyway?' I mean, seriously, is that what you're after? Because SA has admitted that the models are a bit chunky when viewed closeup, but that's for a specific reason (heroic scale). They've explained the reason a number of things are the way they are, for various tooling reasons. But apparently, because they won't say, 'Yeah, our models suck' or 'This batch isn't great, but our next will be better!' in the middle of a Kickstarter campaign, it simply isn't good enough for you. At least, that seems to be my impression.
Now, I in no way find that the models are half as bad as some people (or rather, about the same three people for 95% of it) have been harping on about. But that's because I'm lucky enough to live down the road from Lego, and to have seen the sprues/models in person (and that is literally the extent of my involvement in the whole thing). I've seen better miniatures, it's true. Yet I've also seen considerably worse. When all is said and done though, most of the things people have been complaining about the most actually don't strike you when you're looking at them in person. God only knows, the Cadians seem twice as chunky to me after seeing the Epirians. And some of the stuff done with the Minnows and the Hunters is really very technically clever.
Yes, the Epirians look a little wide when blown up to a big screen. Yes, one of the Karist heavies has a slightly awkward wrist. Nobody is denying these things. SA isn't denying them. People who like MEdge aren't denying them. They've acknowledged it, and in most cases, proffered an explanation as to why that is the case. Chalk it up as a miniature you do/don't like, and stop looking for an apology/retraction from the company for them.
I do suspect though, that what you're actually after (and not just you, but several people in this thread) isn't so much even about the current models anymore, or even some form of acknowledgement/apology from SA so much as it is a desire to influence (be it personally, or indirectly) the next batch of models. And whilst SA responds to your queries, the fact that it won't validate or acknowledge you as being right frustrates you, because it makes you think that if they've done something you didn't personally like this time around, sculpt-wise, they might do it again next time.
And If that is the case squire, I think you might just need to relax, trust that your thoughts have been heard by anyone paying attention to MEdge here on Dakka (exceptionally loudly, personally speaking ), and come to terms with the fact that the company (and everyone else) will probably agree with you on some things, and not on others. But ultimately, SA will make what they want to make, and what they think their customers will buy. And if they're wrong, then the customers will vote with their feet.
Bob, I work in marketing. I own a marketing agency as a matter of fact. And sorry to break it to you, but you are a bit of a toxic consumer. You say you support, but the vast majority of what you said was incredibly negative and some of it was massively rude, especially at the beginning/middle. In fact, I reported you for moderation more than once, but they chose to not moderate anyone in here, despite a few peoples protests to the contrary.
You probably did more damage than any other single person to SAS. In my opinion you were absolute poison. You are lucky they weren't willing to compromise their integrity and morals for the sake of good business practice and use the ability they had to get rid of you, because I would have in a heartbeat. They showed the patience of saints with you. And you were in my opinion the worst offender of claiming to be a supporter while acting like anything but... the opposite of a brand evangelist. Mostly because of the same 'my opinion is the only one that is correct' attitude a small numbers of others displayed coupled with your relentless posting and 'humour'.
Regarding the 'in my opinion' thing is absolutely vital if you can't tell the difference between subjective opinion and objective fact. REALLY important. You should use it all the time.
'The customer is always right' is a great paradigm to use when pleasing said customer is both worth it and feasible. If said customer is using that reasoning to be unreasonable and malicious to the point of harming your business, then said customer is absolutely not worth it. No one needs customers like that. Sorry. I would have dropped you like a hot potato.
Even now, you and Alex are relentlessly trying to drag the conversation back to negative things, some of which are completely fictitious, some of which are legitimate, some of which will never be resolved to your satisfaction. But you want to keep the tone where SAS is constantly on the defensive. You ignore anything you don't want to hear, including facts, and hammer away with your 'my way or the highway' opinions.
It seems you will be allowed to continue to do this, and that is their prerogative and I respect it. But if you can run around saying what you say, then others should be able to point out the nonsense of some of your allegations and undermine you as systematically as you try to undermine this project.
I realize Alex is not likely reading my responses, but I don't really care, it's as much for anyone looking to recognize the tactics being used and to make sure you never get to say 'The over-moderated us!' or 'They don't listen to us' without a hard rebuttal. In my opinion, that is how you should be handled, no more free shots and unchallenged fictions.
Read through the thread. What a poopoostorm. Mods were very gracious to let garbage like this go on this long. The title seems kind of misleading... not sure if I would use the word 'Discussion'. Don't want to say check your privilege... but check your privilege...
EDIT: Personally, I think what Spiral Arm has dished out so far in regards to Maelstrom's Edge is pretty dang good. Then again I like Karen Traviss so according to some my opinion could be suspect.
I'm really glad that I've stayed out of this thread for the past few pages, seems to have turned into something of an echo chamber with 2 or 3 people continually spouting negative opinions disguised as fact. Oh and one person spamming art that is in my opinion absolutely awful (sorry Alex really don't like your redesigns).
I'm going to try to post something positive. I like all the miniatures that are part of MEdge so far, yes even the contractors. When I fist saw them I didn't like them at all really mostly due to the big metal shoulder pads, but even then I saw that a different paint job could work wonders. As a result of that line of thinking my opinion of the contractors changed. They are still the miniatures in the box that I like the least but I do at least like them. I'm also looking forward to having a look through the beta rules, not sure if I'll get an chance to play test them but I hope I do. I've always liked suppression systems in games and the system in MEdge looks pretty damn good. I do have to admit though that I will probably never use the tokens, instead I'll use different coloured dice simply because they'll take up less table space.
Nick Ellingworth wrote: I'm really glad that I've stayed out of this thread for the past few pages, seems to have turned into something of an echo chamber with 2 or 3 people continually spouting negative opinions disguised as fact. Oh and one person spamming art that is in my opinion absolutely awful (sorry Alex really don't like your redesigns).
And here i thought i was helping medge to become a better product, i am just being negative
I'm just going to say one thing: you seem to have read a lot into the exo-suit design even though I stated it was a stalled design I wasn't happy with.
Looking back at some of early Infinity stuff, that is gods awful but it just got better and better (imo).
It's fair to say that most miniature lines only improve*.
There were was some fair commentary on the minis for MEdge and some pointlessly repetitive griping, but I would think that SAS would consider some of the more constructive feedback in the next round.
(* which is really strange - there are the same sculptors and manufacturers, but quality just isn't consistent. Why is that? I mean, look at Mantic's Undead - mainly incredible. Then look at their large Abyssal Demons. WTF?!)
I think you are right in many of your points about Bob and the gang (tm?), but you seem to be analyzing his behaviour in a vaccuum. For years Dakka has been the place where all the cool kids who probably smoke would go to hate and harp on GW games with next to no consequence from Mods - Hell, some of the mods have even started some of the derogatory meme's that constantly being posted on here.
But suddenly SAS appears and now it's not cool to hate. Now we should bring forward well thought out critique of models and buisness plans and delibarate considerations of wrist bending angles and what not, and I think that some users just wasn't clued in on the fact that the cool thing now was keeping an open mind and just reviewing the product objectively. And I think you as a mod need to realize that you have a lot of the responsibility of this culture of harsh criticism instead of threatening users with "what you would have done to them".
But now the product is funded so lets hope the debate about this round of products will soon die out so we can get to discuss a potentially great ruleset. So, Great News! It's time to go back hating on the H-h-h-hobby again and let SAS do their work
I think you are right in many of your points about Bob and the gang (tm?), but you seem to be analyzing his behaviour in a vaccuum. For years Dakka has been the place where all the cool kids who probably smoke would go to hate and harp on GW games with next to no consequence from Mods - Hell, some of the mods have even started some of the derogatory meme's that constantly being posted on here.
But suddenly SAS appears and now it's not cool to hate. Now we should bring forward well thought out critique of models and buisness plans and delibarate considerations of wrist bending angles and what not, and I think that some users just wasn't clued in on the fact that the cool thing now was keeping an open mind and just reviewing the product objectively. And I think you as a mod need to realize that you have a lot of the responsibility of this culture of harsh criticism instead of threatening users with "what you would have done to them".
But now the product is funded so lets hope the debate about this round of products will soon die out so we can get to discuss a potentially great ruleset. So, Great News! It's time to go back hating on the H-h-h-hobby again and let SAS do their work
But suddenly SAS appears and now it's not cool to hate. Now we should bring forward well thought out critique of models and buisness plans and delibarate considerations of wrist bending angles and what not, and I think that some users just wasn't clued in on the fact that the cool thing now was keeping an open mind and just reviewing the product objectively.
No, that was always the ' cool ' thing. Hate just for the sake of being edgy has never been encouraged. For the most part, those companies that cop the most scorn are those who have put serious effort into earning it. Dakka has always been a community that was happy to point out the positive when a company did something right.
And for the most part, that held true here. The positive reactions that MEdge got from most of the community are a stark contrast to those who seemed to just want to focus on what they see as negatives.
Thing is, I'm not a MOD anymore and haven't been for a good long time. So I'm not threatening anything lol, i am just a user. As mentioned, i hit the triangle a few times even, nothing happened lol!
I dont take personal responsibility for the Tone of this entire website either lol, sorry. Dakka was around before me, it was around with me, it will be around without me. The tone is the result of the interactions, large and small of about 60,000 people. It's not really controllable... We didn't install the attitude you refer to, and the tone is self propagating as it obviously will attract people interested in the subject.
Frankly i would personally consider not turning your subjective statements into objective ones to be part of rule #1, be polite. Imagine the tone change if it were just generally enforced? Everyone still gets their opinion, its just a lot tougher to express it in a super offensive fashion as it limits the scale of implication? Im not a Mod anymore, but that is something i genuinely feel would help this place mitigate what you describe a bit.
Finally, i personally don't believe Anyone, including the creators, should be pretending Medge is the same as any other game here. As a matter of principal, it sounds nice, but it makes no sense ultimately to me. The public will always be hyper sensitive in this forum to any perceived pro SAS action. Meanwhile this actually shackles the team from acting in any way 'just like anyone else' and they in turn are hypersensitive to offending said public in this forum and tie their own hands from using the powers they possess to say, get rid of poison clients hurting their business seemingly for nothing but kicks.
Plus, everyone knows the creators are right here. We arent talking about some abstract presence of a monolithic corporation, or petsonalities who are not present or active here. Its kinda like gossip, you say things things behind 'closed doors' that would not be cool to say to the persons individual face. GW as a company gets a lot of crap, but it is an an abstract here. We actually did discourage personal attacks on individuals like Ward or Romeo though. It was all how things were worded. Basically rule one applies most to our members, and can be looser on faceless corporations in my view.
And by way of that explanation, SAS is literally entirely here, all the time. Pretending it isn't different when it is does't mechanically work for me.
That being said i find it extremely unfair the sentiment that them acting on their own behalf is unfair or predatory. They have a business now, and i dont think they should be handicapped into inactivity because their is an expectation for them to not leverage any of the advantages owning this forum should bring at all. They seem to be genuinely attempting this though, and good for them, in principal, even if I think that is a mistake business wise and a bit unrealistic in the long term.
So, based on all the above, i have no problem calling out Bob or any of the handfull of others, i think we know who they are, and defending SAS here. GW isn't on this forum as a company. They are. GW didnt build this place and gift it for all of us to use for free, they did. I won't make things up to enact that defense, nor do I seek to eliminate critique or anyone's fundamental right to their own opinions or expressing them. But yeah, if you express those opinions in an absolutely unneccesarily rude way, or start trying to install lies as defacto facts that hurt people you know are right there in the room with you so to speak, i don't see why anyone needs to pretend it's not to their face.
To e the expectations of fairness should go both ways. From them, but from us too.
Hope that makes sense even if you may not entirely agree.
I was under the impression that the bulk of information would be shared on the main MEdge site, with it's presence here mostly relegated to discussion like any other company on dakkadakka. That's just the impression I have, mind.
Yup and that is exactly what they are doing. I'm just saying I don't particularly agree with the any other company bit in practice but do in principal. My personal take, but they are proceeding as you describe.
GW is a $150 million company that has spent the past 10 years almost systematically destroying everything people loved about the HHHobby, only resting from that activity to increase prices massively when they aren't taking vindictive, unjustifiable IP legal actions against minor SF authors, small modding parts companies, and even their own fans.
SAS is a bunch of regular guys like us, except they have a wargaming dream they have the guts and grit to make real, but they made a model with a chunky shoulder and another one with a bent wrist, and God forbid you might correct that by 30 seconds with a craft knife.
Kilkrazy wrote: GW is a $150 million company that has spent the past 10 years almost systematically destroying everything people loved about the HHHobby, only resting from that activity to increase prices massively when they aren't taking vindictive, unjustifiable IP legal actions against minor SF authors, small modding parts companies, and even their own fans.
SAS is a bunch of regular guys like us, except they have a wargaming dream they have the guts and grit to make real, but they made a model with a chunky shoulder and another one with a bent wrist, and God forbid you might correct that by 30 seconds with a craft knife.
I'm not sure sure how good the comparison is, but isn't Adam Poots' Kingdom Death:Monster a one-man operation(plus the factory)? The project is being some in HIPS, with each armor set having many different weapon and cosmetic options. Based on the photographs he's shared in his massive updates he seems to have done well with his first try at the material, with most complaints being about the unarmored torsos having gaps and lack of detail on the back.
Granted, Poots got the money up front, while SAS asked for it after most of the design work was finished.
Kilkrazy wrote: GW is a $150 million company that has spent the past 10 years almost systematically destroying everything people loved about the HHHobby, only resting from that activity to increase prices massively when they aren't taking vindictive, unjustifiable IP legal actions against minor SF authors, small modding parts companies, and even their own fans.
SAS is a bunch of regular guys like us, except they have a wargaming dream they have the guts and grit to make real, but they made a model with a chunky shoulder and another one with a bent wrist, and God forbid you might correct that by 30 seconds with a craft knife.
Oh hey, some sense after how many pages of debating forms of criticism and whatnot. Seriously, unlike GW, I perceived exactly 0 instances of d-baggery coming from SAS. Their sculpts may not look top-notch-extra-deluxe, but they are serviceable and a decent paintjob will make them shine (unlike the current two GW releases. I have no idea what would be necessary to make that librarian looking good to me). So far, the factions are a bit generic. We have high-tech-humans with robots and we have fanatics who fight for salvation/greatergood/cleansingtheworldofheretics/cookies. I guess it wouldn't be a complete set without those. Now, for the remaining factions, I hope SAS will come up with some interesting twist, even if they do uses some old sci-fi tropes as base material. What this game needs are some alien species, preferably non-antropomorphic.
One thing I haven't figured out yet is, we convert models on the daily right?
I mean that's the point of most plogs. If you hated one part or another with the faction infantry, or whatever, couldn't you sculpt or order helmets/shoulders/whatever you needed to make them work?
We've mentioned cutting and altering but, nothing about swaps thus far.
Is the scale right to even swap bits with other companies at the moment? I don't remember off the top of my head, even though I have totally seen the chart somewhere that Lego did with the Lego fig in it.
That being said i find it extremely unfair the sentiment that them acting on their own behalf is unfair or predatory. They have a business now, and i dont think they should be handicapped into inactivity because their is an expectation for them to not leverage any of the advantages owning this forum should bring at all. They seem to be genuinely attempting this though, and good for them, in principal, even if I think that is a mistake business wise and a bit unrealistic in the long term.
To be fair, Tom, they have two businesses now; Dakka and SAS.
Whether or not Dakka is technically a 'business' doesn't really matter. Folks like LEGO and Yakface have an interest in the growth and popularity of Dakka, and I think it is fair to say that their advertising, moderating, and administrative philosophies have significantly contributed to the growth of this website.
So to me it makes sense for them to put up something of a Chinese wall between SAS and Dakka, as opposed to exploiting one to leverage the other. I think they are, correctly, sensitive to the harm that could cause (and to some extent has already caused) to the goodwill of both entities.
Anyway, to be more on topic, for me MEdge came off as strangely underwhelming. That's just an honest assessment of my reaction to the promotion and the Kickstarter campaign. I say strangely because it is clear a ton of hard work and a great deal of money has gone into the project. At the end of the day, I think I'm a little to one side of the target market.
It looks like MEdge has legs, so long as SAS can maintain the requisite cash flow to keep releases rolling along at a regular pace. I look at this whole business as an example of the inherent toxicity of Kickstarter. The platform has the potential to produce great value, but it going to Kickstarter is like playing with fire.
I hope that SAS came out on top. Eight hundred backers is a great start!
Yeah, I feel the same as you Weeble. I support Yakface and Legoburner and think they've been very restrained and careful with the PR surrounding this campaign, but I think in some ways they suffered from giving the community what the community thought it wanted, rather than what it really wants.
I'm trying to find the Extra Credits video where they talk about how companies that are honest with consumers (not doing "deals" and "sales" and so on) actually lose a lot of money and increase customer dissatisfaction, because consumers actually prefer to be told that things are awesome.
In any case, I am hopeful that Maelstrom's Edge will be really successful, though I am also perhaps not directly in the target market for it at the moment. That could change though, especially if any new factions come out that I find really interesting.
@weeble and da boss, i 100% agree with that assesment in principal, my issue or worry is that to the public, no matter how seperate they are in fact, they will never be seperable in the dakka conciousness... At least to those inclined towards conspiracy and hyperbole. Its really more a concern about what the pr perception allows them to do, and not the honor of their intent if you see what i mean. Its going to be a giant spin game no matter what in my opinion, if you take that for granted i would advise to position yourself in a way to leverage what you have towards the spin game, like it or not. Does that make more sense? 100% though that is not my call to make, and there are certainly other ways to engage that could work too.
@nomeny, check the medge sub forum, i think there will be a lot of chatter there once the beta rules drop! I am sure yak would answer any questions you have inhe meantime too -
Nomeny wrote: Hi, I'm a little late to the party. Is there a thread where we can talk about how the game plays, and what the rules are?
I'm just seconding this. This thread seems to be the main one I can find for MEdge, but it's not really a discussion about the game, but a discussion about discussions.
Nomeny wrote: Hi, I'm a little late to the party. Is there a thread where we can talk about how the game plays, and what the rules are?
I'm just seconding this. This thread seems to be the main one I can find for MEdge, but it's not really a discussion about the game, but a discussion about discussions.
There's a thread in News and Rumors, and if you go to the Forum Index there is a subforum specifically for MEdge.
MajorTom11 wrote: @weeble and da boss, i 100% agree with that assesment in principal, my issue or worry is that to the public, no matter how seperate they are in fact, they will never be seperable in the dakka conciousness... At least to those inclined towards conspiracy and hyperbole. Its really more a concern about what the pr perception allows them to do, and not the honor of their intent if you see what i mean. Its going to be a giant spin game no matter what in my opinion, if you take that for granted i would advise to position yourself in a way to leverage what you have towards the spin game, like it or not. Does that make more sense? 100% though that is not my call to make, and there are certainly other ways to engage that could work too.
Fair enough, but my counterpoint (generally speaking) is that sometimes integrity for integrity's sake is important, and also valuable in the long run.
There are some lines you just don't feel you should cross, regardless. Being perceived of as a person/institution of integrity can be very valuable, but so can personally feeling like you haven't compromised your values. What is the business cost of regretting a decision for years? Hard to quantify, but I think such costs exist. Do you put a little less effort into the business? Are you a little too cautious in future dealings?
Your point is well-taken that if the relevant public perceives you a certain way, why not reap the benefits of a cost you have already paid? Once you reap the benefits, you now own the costs, both personally and professionally, and that can follow you/the company around for a long time.
@Tom: I get your points and I was also being a little extra accusing in my tone to provoke a reaction, but will try and reign it in this post
First off, missed the fact that you aren't a mod anymore - have been inactive on dakka a lot since I got a Windows Phone.
Secondly, I see a lot of your points and especially agree that it is foolish to pretend that Medge isnt special, and I find the attitude of those that complained about the adds to be ridiciolus - the owners of a game arent allowed to promote it on their webpage? Come on internet! But on the other hand I also think that the users should be allowed to be as dumb and unconstructive as they have always been.
And that was really what ticked me in your post. There was this tone of "Medge is so special you cant act normally around it". I dont think what happened in this thread or the other was at all helpful to the kickstarter, and I think a TON of leeway have been given by the owners of this site with regards to (somewhat unfounded) criticism of their other company - but I also think that is the only way it should be if Dakka is gonna remain strong - but in your post I got the feeling that you felt SAS should have some supremely special status. And after all, what happened here isnt any worse than what Gates of Antares, Battlefoam or Blue Table have been through, so even if we exclude the objectively-evil GWSAS have been treatet in a way that has Dakka precedence.
But all this said, I do agree with you on a lot of points and I hope that Medge grows HUGE with a vibrant competitive scene, if for no other reason than the hope that GW realizes that their two biggest competitors both sell WARgames and not COLLECTINGgames
I've been off for more than a year, many reasons but primarily I don't have the time to enjoy the hobby anymore with little ones etc. Will get back to painting one day but I am not the kind of dude who can pick at things every night for an hour, I need a day or two non-stop lol.
I must have misrepresented myself, because I think it would be poison to treat Medge as supremely special! That would be a terrible move marketing wise and understandably generate a lot of negative response. What I meant was on the other side of the coin, you can't pretend there is no connection and special circumstances either... so acknowledge the circumstances, but don't demand/expect special treatment from the public. It's more about how they themselves handle the special status internally than anything else.
This thread is actually a perfect example of the kind of problems they may face. This is a thread created by a person looking to undermine the product. It was called critique but the person spent most of the beginning of it using it as his personal toilet in my opinion.
Others adopted the same tone, some gave constructive critique too. But nobody, anywhere, got moderated.
The mods, and Lego and Yak, acted with a lot of integrity. A lot. They turned more cheeks than human anatomy should afford anybody lol... And some of the stuff early on in here, for any company but SAS, would have gotten MOD action, trust me. They afforded themselves LESS protection than others on here, not more.
Despite this, some people had the temerity to accuse them of not only stifling them but intensely moderating them. And they were getting away with it too until I had enough weren't they?
And this shows exactly what the 'specialness' of SAS is here on Dakka. All their integrity, unless recognized and defended, doesn't do much if they don't get credit for it. If it isn't recognized and spoken about. It might as well not be happening if no one says it. And Dakka staff, for better or worse, really don't ask for recognition or point out what they do almost at all. Because they have the integrity to be satisfied just knowing they did it, they don't seek praise.
But that will have to change for SAS I feel. Because any action they take will be considered 100X more severe because it will be perceived as abuse of power, they need regular users to step up for them when people are trying to spread malicious lies. They need people to 'see' so lies like that can't entrench themselves and dominate the conversation, wasting everyone's time and energy on a fiction. They need loyalty from the audience, not just appreciation. Most certainly they will need to earn and maintain that loyalty by doing the right thing and delivering their promises, and making a better and better product for you guys. But they can't just do it, they need to point it out to make sure it is noticed. They can't just be the quiet nice guy in the corner anymore, a little charisma needs to be injected and a little bit of sticking up for themselves via stating what they do in a way that is very against their nature will be needed.
SAS is special, basically, in that it needs to strike a crazy balance between being impartial with one hat on and yet still be able to transparently pursue their business with integrity with another hat on. It will be a fine line. But other companies don't have to worry about not being full on for their own product or being as available to their audience as some will expect SAS to be. It is not special at all in any way that requires anyone to like it if they don't, or to not offer any criticism they have so long as it follows rule #1 (which is univeral and SHOULD apply to them too! And mods for that matter lol!).
I hope this better represents my meaning! Thanks for the response though and the debate -
it reminds me of how a Lego man looks when he is put in a walk pose.
How big are they? Can we see them scaled next to another model? Do you have a -planned- price point (even though it might be subject to change aka a ball park figure?)
stranded on a world near the Edge and fallen into disrepair.
