The Unusual Grenades reference is a dead argument because the wargear entry for Rad Grenades does not direct you Unusual Grenades or the Grenades section of the BRB at all on how to employ them. You follow the RAW of the wargear entry period.
The only real question is whether or not they stack which two of us have started to actually discuss in terms of multiple units having Rad Grenades assaulting or being assaulted versus a unit with multiple models having Rad Grenades.
Brother Ramses wrote:No, you asked me for a non-BRB grenade that refers you to the BRB. I gave you Blight, a non-BRB grenade that refers you to the BRB. You say it is like Frag which it isn't since Frag is specififally called out to check the BRB with an asterisk to be treated as Assault. But by all means, show me the Blight Grenades in the BRB. By all means show me the profiles for Blight Grenades in the Chaos Codex.
But Blight Grenades ARE BRB Grenades. Aside from the restriction for Nurgle only, what are Blight Grenades? BRB Grenades.
Try again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
doctortom wrote: That's rather disingenuous of you there. Unusual grenades starts by saying "some grenades do not have a profile." before saying "Any efrfects that they have will be covered in their special rules." Claiming that they are talking about unusual grenades' special rules as being listed in a profile they already stated they don't have indicates either confusion or obfuscation on your part. (It may be the former, given your stating more than once previously "Can rad grenades be used as a melee weapon? No. Therefore they cannot be unusual grenades. " in the thread despite the Unusual Grenades box specifically stating that unusual grenades are not used as a melee weapon.) Obviously, since they have already stated they don't have a profile, the "special rules" for an unusual grenade would be the rules listed for that grenade.
And also evidence that Wargear does carry special rules.
Brother Ramses wrote:No, you asked me for a non-BRB grenade that refers you to the BRB. I gave you Blight, a non-BRB grenade that refers you to the BRB. You say it is like Frag which it isn't since Frag is specififally called out to check the BRB with an asterisk to be treated as Assault. But by all means, show me the Blight Grenades in the BRB. By all means show me the profiles for Blight Grenades in the Chaos Codex.
But Blight Grenades ARE BRB Grenades. Aside from the restriction for Nurgle only, what are Blight Grenades? BRB Grenades.
Try again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
doctortom wrote: That's rather disingenuous of you there. Unusual grenades starts by saying "some grenades do not have a profile." before saying "Any efrfects that they have will be covered in their special rules." Claiming that they are talking about unusual grenades' special rules as being listed in a profile they already stated they don't have indicates either confusion or obfuscation on your part. (It may be the former, given your stating more than once previously "Can rad grenades be used as a melee weapon? No. Therefore they cannot be unusual grenades. " in the thread despite the Unusual Grenades box specifically stating that unusual grenades are not used as a melee weapon.) Obviously, since they have already stated they don't have a profile, the "special rules" for an unusual grenade would be the rules listed for that grenade.
And also evidence that Wargear does carry special rules.
Cite page and rule that specifically shows "Blight Grenades" in the BRB.
Look dude, you tried for a gotcha question telling me to show you a non-BRB Grenades that directs you to the BRB. I caught you with your pants down and now you are fumbling your response by trying to change what you asked for and saying now even going so far as to openly lie about Blight Grenades being in the BRB. I answered your question exactly as to what you requested, pull up your pants and move on.
You are permitted to access those rules.
The entry for an inquisitor tells you to go to page 137 or whatever to see rad grenades, thereby meeting the basic vs advanced criteria of following the list entry.
Basic vs advanced provides you access to the core rules while using the codex, it does not grant you access to the other sections of the BRB those access options will be provided to you in the codex on an as needed basis.
I am glad we agree on heavy flamers, I think you are confused by those comments and others I make because I respond to col and you do not see the nonsense I am refuting from him. So now that I think about it, this must be why you perceive me as crazy at times. My apologies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the grenades. It tells you to see their special rules, The weapon section does clarify that special rules are listed after the weapon type on the profile. So weapons do directly refer you to the special rules section. This is per how profiles are described in that section.
That's rather disingenuous of you there. Unusual grenades starts by saying "some grenades do not have a profile." before saying "Any efrfects that they have will be covered in their special rules." Claiming that they are talking about unusual grenades' special rules as being listed in a profile they already stated they don't have indicates either confusion or obfuscation on your part. (It may be the former, given your stating more than once previously "Can rad grenades be used as a melee weapon? No. Therefore they cannot be unusual grenades. " in the thread despite the Unusual Grenades box specifically stating that unusual grenades are not used as a melee weapon.) Obviously, since they have already stated they don't have a profile, the "special rules" for an unusual grenade would be the rules listed for that grenade.
Personally when I think of an entry with a Special Rule I think of things like a runic weapon in the Wolves codex. They have Ward which grants Admantium Will. Like how a Melta Bomb grants the Special Rule of Melta. In the case of the Rad Grenades wargear entry, and not referencing the BRB section on Grenades since we are not directed to, nothing is listed as a Special Rule and nothing refers you to reference a Special Rule for the Rad Grenades. No different than a TWM that just flat out modifies base stats with no Special Rule granting or reference.
kronk wrote: So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.
HIWPI: no stacking.
Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?
In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.
Description does not equal Special Rule. But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.
kronk wrote: So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.
HIWPI: no stacking.
Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?
In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.
Description does not equal Special Rule. But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.
Are there any grenades that say "see Unusual Grenades in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules"?
kronk wrote: So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.
HIWPI: no stacking.
Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?
In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.
Description does not equal Special Rule.
It does when Unusual grenades tell us to see their special rules. Calling it a "description" instead of a special rule for them seems odd.
Brother Ramses wrote: But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.
Permission is by the mention of grenades in the first place, with unusual grenades indicating those are ones without profiles - in fact,, what is written about in the rad grenade section matches up perfectly with what we are told in Unusual Grenades. Also, I second Happyjew's query to you about giving us an example of any unusual grenade that says "see Unusual Grenades (page 180)" or words to that effect.
If you have a melee weapon, you have permission to look at basic melee weapon rules. If you have a ranged weapon, you have permission to look at basic ranged weapons rules. If you have a grenade, you have permission to look at basic grenade rules. In basic grenade rules we are given the sidebox on Unusual Grenades. You still look at what is listed for the specifics to see what overwrites the basic rules, but only basic rules in conflict are overwritten. There is no conflict here to cause the unusual grenade rules to be overwritten.
kronk wrote: So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.
HIWPI: no stacking.
Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?
In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.
Description does not equal Special Rule. But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.
Are there any grenades that say "see Unusual Grenades in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules"?
Not that I am aware of, but that point is moot. I don't need to show you that a condition exists for Rad Grenades to be referred to the Grenades section of the BRB. You need to show me that you have been directed to and have permission to do so with Rad Grenades. We do know that Frag, Krak, Melta, and Haywire require you to reference the BRB, however Rad Grenades do not.
You are permitted to access those rules.
The entry for an inquisitor tells you to go to page 137 or whatever to see rad grenades, thereby meeting the basic vs advanced criteria of following the list entry.
Basic vs advanced provides you access to the core rules while using the codex, it does not grant you access to the other sections of the BRB those access options will be provided to you in the codex on an as needed basis.
I am glad we agree on heavy flamers, I think you are confused by those comments and others I make because I respond to col and you do not see the nonsense I am refuting from him. So now that I think about it, this must be why you perceive me as crazy at times. My apologies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the grenades. It tells you to see their special rules, The weapon section does clarify that special rules are listed after the weapon type on the profile. So weapons do directly refer you to the special rules section. This is per how profiles are described in that section.
That's rather disingenuous of you there. Unusual grenades starts by saying "some grenades do not have a profile." before saying "Any efrfects that they have will be covered in their special rules." Claiming that they are talking about unusual grenades' special rules as being listed in a profile they already stated they don't have indicates either confusion or obfuscation on your part. (It may be the former, given your stating more than once previously "Can rad grenades be used as a melee weapon? No. Therefore they cannot be unusual grenades. " in the thread despite the Unusual Grenades box specifically stating that unusual grenades are not used as a melee weapon.) Obviously, since they have already stated they don't have a profile, the "special rules" for an unusual grenade would be the rules listed for that grenade.
I am off the unusual grenades argument, please let me explain and tell me where the flaw is at.
1. Special rule section states all the special rules are presented in the special rules section. Therefore all special rules located in the BRB are in the special rules section. This page also states it is not exhaustive, but for the brb it is exhaustive because all have been presented. All others are in codex or army entry list, this is explained in basic vs advanced.
2. Unusual grenades is not located in the special rules section of the brb where, all special rules are presented, hence unusual grenades are not a special rule.
3. Basic vs advanced. The basic vs advanced rules tell us that the rules for movement, shooting, assaulting and morale apply to all models. Therefore any rule not of those above detailed sections is not an applicable rule when dealing with a non BRB document. This is further explained in basic vs advanced by stating that in the event of a conflict the rules of an army list entry or codex always take precedence. Note that weapons in the BRB are not included in the list of basic rules that apply to all models, therefore grenades and other weapons themselves are not rules, they possess rules.
4. The army list entry in codex IA for models that can purchase the special wargear rad grenades directs you to the page in codex IA that has rad grenades listed. The army list entry for rad grenades does not direct us to consult the BRB rules for grenades, therefore we do not have too, as codex takes precedence. Any rule in a codex that requires you to consult another rulebook will give you explicit directions to do so, such as "see codex: Space marines" or "see 40k:The rules" as the only permission granted you per basic vs advanced is the rules for movement, shooting, assault, and morale. Any other rules or weapons provided in a codex that exist in the BRB will either have an army entry note or a splash page in the codex armory telling you what document to reference for those rules. This is done on a case by case basis.
PER the above you are not given permission or special rule authority to consult unusual grenades in the BRB while reading Codex IA.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hope we're finally done with the unusual grenades tangent and can just talk about the rad grenades.
kronk wrote: So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.
HIWPI: no stacking.
Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?
In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.
Description does not equal Special Rule.
It does when Unusual grenades tell us to see their special rules. Calling it a "description" instead of a special rule for them seems odd.
Brother Ramses wrote: But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.
Permission is by the mention of grenades in the first place, with unusual grenades indicating those are ones without profiles - in fact,, what is written about in the rad grenade section matches up perfectly with what we are told in Unusual Grenades. Also, I second Happyjew's query to you about giving us an example of any unusual grenade that says "see Unusual Grenades (page 180)" or words to that effect.
If you have a melee weapon, you have permission to look at basic melee weapon rules. If you have a ranged weapon, you have permission to look at basic ranged weapons rules. If you have a grenade, you have permission to look at basic grenade rules. In basic grenade rules we are given the sidebox on Unusual Grenades. You still look at what is listed for the specifics to see what overwrites the basic rules, but only basic rules in conflict are overwritten. There is no conflict here to cause the unusual grenade rules to be overwritten.
Naming conventions do not dictate rules, RAW does. For some reason you and others have clamped onto the "Grenades" in Rad Grenades as a directive to immediately flip open the BRB to the Grenades section. Except the name of the wargear item is RAD GRENADES. Words matter. If you look in the codices, items like Melta Bombs and Krak Grenades refer you to the BRB, directly. Frag even directs you to the BRB, but tells you to reference Assault. But again, direct reference and direction to the BRB.
You, among others, are putting the cart before the horse. You have assumed that Rad Grenades are Unusual Grenades, which you actually have zero permission to do so, and then are going back and trying to justify that assumption by use of a faulty RAI naming convention. You have zero RAW standing to use the name as a means of determining that Rad Grenades are Unusual Grenades due to prescence of "Grenades" in the name. And that is not even taking into account that you are only cherry picking the name.
But it is a simple request that not a single one of you has been able to supply, cite the rule and page reference that tells you to refer to the BRB for Rad Grenades. Show me any cited rule that refers me to the BRB in the wargear entry for Rad Grenades and this conversation is over. As it stands, per the most basic reading of the RAW, you are never directed to or given permission to reference the BRB in the wargear entry for them. But by all means if you can show me, cite it.
You are permitted to access those rules.
The entry for an inquisitor tells you to go to page 137 or whatever to see rad grenades, thereby meeting the basic vs advanced criteria of following the list entry.
Basic vs advanced provides you access to the core rules while using the codex, it does not grant you access to the other sections of the BRB those access options will be provided to you in the codex on an as needed basis.
I am glad we agree on heavy flamers, I think you are confused by those comments and others I make because I respond to col and you do not see the nonsense I am refuting from him. So now that I think about it, this must be why you perceive me as crazy at times. My apologies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the grenades. It tells you to see their special rules, The weapon section does clarify that special rules are listed after the weapon type on the profile. So weapons do directly refer you to the special rules section. This is per how profiles are described in that section.
That's rather disingenuous of you there. Unusual grenades starts by saying "some grenades do not have a profile." before saying "Any efrfects that they have will be covered in their special rules." Claiming that they are talking about unusual grenades' special rules as being listed in a profile they already stated they don't have indicates either confusion or obfuscation on your part. (It may be the former, given your stating more than once previously "Can rad grenades be used as a melee weapon? No. Therefore they cannot be unusual grenades. " in the thread despite the Unusual Grenades box specifically stating that unusual grenades are not used as a melee weapon.) Obviously, since they have already stated they don't have a profile, the "special rules" for an unusual grenade would be the rules listed for that grenade.
I am off the unusual grenades argument, please let me explain and tell me where the flaw is at.
1. Special rule section states all the special rules are presented in the special rules section. Therefore all special rules located in the BRB are in the special rules section. This page also states it is not exhaustive, but for the brb it is exhaustive because all have been presented. All others are in codex or army entry list, this is explained in basic vs advanced.
Irrelevant strawman argument. Unusual grenade rules state that those grenades will give you the speical rules.
Ceann wrote: ]2. Unusual grenades is not located in the special rules section of the brb where, all special rules are presented, hence unusual grenades are not a special rule.
Irrelevant strawman argument. Unusual grenades tell you the grenades have special rules. The rules are with the special grenades in codexes and supplements, not the brb. Unusual grenades only tells you to look at the special rules, but does not provide special rules itself. Therefor, not being in the special rule section is irrelevant and does not negate that we are told unusual grenades have special rules.
Ceann wrote: 3. Basic vs advanced. The basic vs advanced rules tell us that the rules for movement, shooting, assaulting and morale apply to all models. Therefore any rule not of those above detailed sections is not an applicable rule when dealing with a non BRB document. This is further explained in basic vs advanced by stating that in the event of a conflict the rules of an army list entry or codex always take precedence. Note that weapons in the BRB are not included in the list of basic rules that apply to all models, therefore grenades and other weapons themselves are not rules, they possess rules.
1. It says they "include" what you list in your first sentence. It does not say that it is exclusively those.
2. Rad grenades do not advanced > basic. As I point out, they work the basic rules for unusual grenades describe rad grenades, and we see what the special rule is when we read the rules for rad grenades. So, your entire argument here is irrelevant.
Ceann wrote: 4. The army list entry in codex IA for models that can purchase the special wargear rad grenades directs you to the page in codex IA that has rad grenades listed. The army list entry for rad grenades does not direct us to consult the BRB rules for grenades, therefore we do not have too, as codex takes precedence. Any rule in a codex that requires you to consult another rulebook will give you explicit directions to do so, such as "see codex: Space marines" or "see 40k:The rules" as the only permission granted you per basic vs advanced is the rules for movement, shooting, assault, and morale. Any other rules or weapons provided in a codex that exist in the BRB will either have an army entry note or a splash page in the codex armory telling you what document to reference for those rules. This is done on a case by case basis.
Irrelevant - for any given type of weapon you have permission to look at the brb for any basic rules for that type, even if there is something that will be overridden - otherwise, how would you know something is being overridden in the first place? The basic rules for grenades include Unusual Grenades.
I give you the same challenge that Brother Ramses was given - show us any ususual grenade in a codex or supplement that states "see Unusual Grenades" (page 180).
PER the above you are not given permission or special rule authority to consult unusual grenades in the BRB while reading Codex IA.
xlDuke wrote: You don't need explicit permission to look in the rule book, it's the book you look in to find out about rules.
Actually you are wrong and do not know the rules.
I explained all of it in the above you did not point out where a flaw was. You can look at the rulebook all you like.
Basic vs advanced rules located in the BRB tell you the basic rules that always apply. Grenades do not always apply.
Advanced rules tell us the codex has precedence. You are only permitted to consult the BRB in relation to codex material only when you are explicitly directed too by the codex. Those rules otherwise effectively do not exist.
kronk wrote: So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.
HIWPI: no stacking.
Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?
In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.
Description does not equal Special Rule.
It does when Unusual grenades tell us to see their special rules. Calling it a "description" instead of a special rule for them seems odd.
Brother Ramses wrote: But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.
Permission is by the mention of grenades in the first place, with unusual grenades indicating those are ones without profiles - in fact,, what is written about in the rad grenade section matches up perfectly with what we are told in Unusual Grenades. Also, I second Happyjew's query to you about giving us an example of any unusual grenade that says "see Unusual Grenades (page 180)" or words to that effect.
If you have a melee weapon, you have permission to look at basic melee weapon rules. If you have a ranged weapon, you have permission to look at basic ranged weapons rules. If you have a grenade, you have permission to look at basic grenade rules. In basic grenade rules we are given the sidebox on Unusual Grenades. You still look at what is listed for the specifics to see what overwrites the basic rules, but only basic rules in conflict are overwritten. There is no conflict here to cause the unusual grenade rules to be overwritten.
Naming conventions do not dictate rules, RAW does. For some reason you and others have clamped onto the "Grenades" in Rad Grenades as a directive to immediately flip open the BRB to the Grenades section. Except the name of the wargear item is RAD GRENADES. Words matter. If you look in the codices, items like Melta Bombs and Krak Grenades refer you to the BRB, directly. Frag even directs you to the BRB, but tells you to reference Assault. But again, direct reference and direction to the BRB.
You, among others, are putting the cart before the horse. You have assumed that Rad Grenades are Unusual Grenades, which you actually have zero permission to do so, and then are going back and trying to justify that assumption by use of a faulty RAI naming convention. You have zero RAW standing to use the name as a means of determining that Rad Grenades are Unusual Grenades due to prescence of "Grenades" in the name. And that is not even taking into account that you are only cherry picking the name.
But it is a simple request that not a single one of you has been able to supply, cite the rule and page reference that tells you to refer to the BRB for Rad Grenades. Show me any cited rule that refers me to the BRB in the wargear entry for Rad Grenades and this conversation is over. As it stands, per the most basic reading of the RAW, you are never directed to or given permission to reference the BRB in the wargear entry for them. But by all means if you can show me, cite it.
So, basically, you can't. show us any unusual grenades that state "see Unusual Grenades (page 180)" If you can't, then the whole argument of saying that we need permission to refer back to the main book grenade section is shot down when we have a grenade that's not a normal grenade listed in the book, at least from the standpoint of how GW is handling Unusual Grenades.
Like I said earlier, you are assuming Unusual Grenades by presencence of name and then going back and trying to turn it into a Special Rule per the Unusual Grenades RAW. Not how it works. Let me educate you;
I give my Assault Squad Melta Bombs. I read my codex special issue wargear section for Melta Bombs and am directed to the BRB. I follow the directions in the BRB for Melta Bombs. Wow, RAW!
I give my inquisitor Rad Grenades. I read my codex special issue wargear section for Rad Grenades. I follow the directions in the special issue wargear section for Rad Grenades. Wow, RAW!
Now let's look at your process,
You give your inquisitor Rad Grenades. You note the word "Grenades" so reference the BRB rules on Grenades. You see that the wargear entry for Rad Grenades has no profile so match it to Unusual Grenades and therefore deem the entry for the Rad grenades as being a Special Rule. Wow, RAI!
Hope this Mr Rogers walk through was simple enough for you to see the error in your ways.
1 applys because special rules supersede the codex precedence of the brb. The grenades do give you special rules, haywire grenades have the haywire rule, meltabombs have the melta rule. We are told these effects are special rules and they are found I the special rules section. You are not given permission to determine what is and is not a special rule, special rules within the BRB again are only located in the special rules section.
Yes, unusual grenades do tell you that unusual grenades have special rules. Such as melta bombs or haywire grenades, or do not have a profile, such as assault grenades. Do you see rad grenades listed in the grenades section? No? Where are the rules for the rad grenades in the brb? Unusual grenades apply to the various grenades located in the section.
Are the weapon type grenades located in the included list of movement shooting assault or morale? Can you point me to the page in the BRB where these rules are at in those sections?
Basic vs advanced tell us the codex has precedence. Did you even look at the IA codex? It tells you the page for rad grenades, rad grenades do not tell you to look at the BRB, rad grenades are not a weapon they are a special wargear.
Because grenades are not included in the basic vs advanced mandatory sections the unusual grenades rules so not apply to rad grenades, the codex has precedence, do you understand what that means? Unless the army list entry directs you to consult those rules then you use them RAW as they exist in the codex IA.
You need to do some research on basic rules, special rules, codexs and their interactions.
are you saying that when a player reads a Codex that he is blind to any rule or information in the BRB that is not a basic rule or directly referenced to the BRB from within the Codex?
Am I saying that? No,I am not.
Basic vs advanced in the BRB tells us what rules basic rules always apply and that the codex and army entry lists have precedence.
I am telling you what the rules say.
I am assuming that is what you meant to ask.
You left something out by the way, special rules supersede the codex precedence over the BRB. All special rules presented in the BRB can be found in the special rules section.
Ceann wrote: Am I saying that? No,I am not.
Basic vs advanced in the BRB tells us what rules basic rules always apply and that the codex and army entry lists have precedence.
I am telling you what the rules say, if I was saying this it would be RAI.
Please just provide a straight answer.
When a player reads a Codex, what rules in the BRB does he have permission to know?
Movement, shooting, assault and morale rules. Any rules referenced by a "see X" statement from that codex and any special rules that supersede the codex precedence.
Not only that, it sounds like he's saying that you can't ever have unusual grenades in a codex because they aren't listed in the BRB. And that they're only talking about unusual grenades in the brb, so it's never possible to have unusual grenades in a codex.
I discredited his point about movement shooting etc etc but he doesn't want to accept that. it's irrelevant, as is basic vs. advanced when the basic dovetails with the advanced. No demonstration of unusual grenades saying "see Unusual grenades (page 180), so no examples of unusual grenades having to refer back to the main book to show that an unusual grenade is an unusual grenade.
Never mind the fact that the description of the rad grenade effect was a description that wouldn't stack.
Ceann wrote: Movement, shooting, assault and morale rules. Any rules referenced by a "see X" statement from that codex and any special rules that supersede the codex precedence.
What about advanced rules in the BRB?
When a player reads a Codex, are they allowed to know about the advanced rules in the BRB?
Ceann wrote: If those rules are on the Army List Entry, sure.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are we at the spot where you make your point or do you have some more one liner entrapment questions?
Do you have a scenario you would like to present?
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Grenades are a special kind of weapon. So the section on grenades in the BRB is an advanced rule, correct?
kronk wrote: So...rad grenades have a special rule that cause the unit they assault -1T? That's how I read it.
HIWPI: no stacking.
Can you show me where rad grenades have a special rule?
In their description of what they do. As per unusual grenades.
Description does not equal Special Rule. But that is the least of your worries at this point since you are referencing Unusual Grenades with absolutely no direction or permission to do so.
Are there any grenades that say "see Unusual Grenades in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules"?
Why are we required to provide some codex reference to the BRB?
You are the one concerned about finding unusual grenades, feel free to check all the codexs you wish.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The wargear called rad grenades is not listed under the weapon section of the army entry list which is where a bolter would be, nor are we told to access the brb by the army entry lists either.
A specific model would be a space marine with a bolter, this is giving him permission per the entry to use the rules for the bolter.
Brother Ramses wrote:Cite page and rule that specifically shows "Blight Grenades" in the BRB.
Look dude, you tried for a gotcha question telling me to show you a non-BRB Grenades that directs you to the BRB. I caught you with your pants down and now you are fumbling your response by trying to change what you asked for and saying now even going so far as to openly lie about Blight Grenades being in the BRB. I answered your question exactly as to what you requested, pull up your pants and move on.
Wrong direction. You presented the evidence yourself and you are now ignoring it.
"Blight Grenades count as both assault and defensive grenades." What are assault and defensive grenades? Where can the be found? The rules for assault and defensive grenades are not found in the Chaos Marine codex. I look in the BRB and I find them there.
Therefore, Blight Grenades are just a form of BRB Grenades that are combined in to one entry and given a new name.
Therefore, try again.
More importantly than that, Unusual Grenades, whether Rad Grenades invokes them or not, adequately demonstrate that a Wargear can carry special rules, and as we see for the Assault Grenades use in Assault, they may not be any USR but unique to that Wargear in question.
Ceann wrote:
xlDuke wrote: You don't need explicit permission to look in the rule book, it's the book you look in to find out about rules.
Actually you are wrong and do not know the rules.
I explained all of it in the above you did not point out where a flaw was. You can look at the rulebook all you like.
Basic vs advanced rules located in the BRB tell you the basic rules that always apply. Grenades do not always apply.
Advanced rules tell us the codex has precedence. You are only permitted to consult the BRB in relation to codex material only when you are explicitly directed too by the codex. Those rules otherwise effectively do not exist.
Basic rules do not always apply. Assault Rules do not apply while doing Movement. Shooting Rules do not apply during Movement. Movement Rules do not apply during Shooting, except if you Run. Shooting Rules in Assault only apply for Overwatch.
You are often to refer to the BRB for many things. Sometimes it is to find out if they are actually providing a conflict. Sometimes it is because another rule is being referenced, such as the timing for a Charge with Rad Grenades. Sometimes it is how it relates to other rules in the game.
Not referencing the BRB just because you aren't specifically told is faulty logic.
The wargear called rad grenades is not listed under the weapon section of the army entry list which is where a bolter would be, nor are we told to access the brb by the army entry lists either.
A specific model would be a space marine with a bolter, this is giving him permission per the entry to use the rules for the bolter.
Answer the question please.
Grenades are a special kind of weapon. So the section on grenades in the BRB is an advanced rule, correct?
Brother Ramses wrote:Cite page and rule that specifically shows "Blight Grenades" in the BRB.
Look dude, you tried for a gotcha question telling me to show you a non-BRB Grenades that directs you to the BRB. I caught you with your pants down and now you are fumbling your response by trying to change what you asked for and saying now even going so far as to openly lie about Blight Grenades being in the BRB. I answered your question exactly as to what you requested, pull up your pants and move on.
Wrong direction. You presented the evidence yourself and you are now ignoring it.
"Blight Grenades count as both assault and defensive grenades." What are assault and defensive grenades? Where can the be found? The rules for assault and defensive grenades are not found in the Chaos Marine codex. I look in the BRB and I find them there.
Therefore, Blight Grenades are just a form of BRB Grenades that are combined in to one entry and given a new name.
Therefore, try again.
More importantly than that, Unusual Grenades, whether Rad Grenades invokes them or not, adequately demonstrate that a Wargear can carry special rules, and as we see for the Assault Grenades use in Assault, they may not be any USR but unique to that Wargear in question.
Ceann wrote:
xlDuke wrote: You don't need explicit permission to look in the rule book, it's the book you look in to find out about rules.
Actually you are wrong and do not know the rules.
I explained all of it in the above you did not point out where a flaw was. You can look at the rulebook all you like.
Basic vs advanced rules located in the BRB tell you the basic rules that always apply. Grenades do not always apply.
Advanced rules tell us the codex has precedence. You are only permitted to consult the BRB in relation to codex material only when you are explicitly directed too by the codex. Those rules otherwise effectively do not exist.
Basic rules do not always apply. Assault Rules do not apply while doing Movement. Shooting Rules do not apply during Movement. Movement Rules do not apply during Shooting, except if you Run. Shooting Rules in Assault only apply for Overwatch.
You are often to refer to the BRB for many things. Sometimes it is to find out if they are actually providing a conflict. Sometimes it is because another rule is being referenced, such as the timing for a Charge with Rad Grenades. Sometimes it is how it relates to other rules in the game.
Not referencing the BRB just because you aren't specifically told is faulty logic.
Please go read the page buddy.
It states those rules apply to all models. It doesnt say you apply them in phases they aren't relevant in. That is just a line of foolish statements you are making to try and make what is stated there sound silly, which it is not. This is a poorly made argument on your part. Please come back with something more concrete.
As for the grenades notice the difference? Blight grenades tell you to check the BRB, so you can! They also directly refer you to check the BRB for those rules.
Rad grenades do not tell you to check the brb so you cannot.
Happyjew wrote: Are there any grenades that say "see Unusual Grenades in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules"?
Not that I am aware of, but that point is moot. I don't need to show you that a condition exists for Rad Grenades to be referred to the Grenades section of the BRB. You need to show me that you have been directed to and have permission to do so with Rad Grenades. We do know that Frag, Krak, Melta, and Haywire require you to reference the BRB, however Rad Grenades do not.
In that case, the only grenades you have permission to use are those specifically found in the rulebook - meltabombs, haywire grenades, plasma grenades, krak grenades, defensive grenades, and frag grenades. Since no "unusual grenade" gives permission to use the rules for "unusual grenades" you are never able to use them.
Grenades are a special kind of weapon. So the section on grenades in the BRB is an advanced rule, correct?
Spoiler:
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
The wargear called rad grenades is not listed under the weapon section of the army entry list which is where a bolter would be, nor are we told to access the brb by the army entry lists either.
A specific model would be a space marine with a bolter, this is giving him permission per the entry to use the rules for the bolter.
Answer the question please.
Grenades are a special kind of weapon. So the section on grenades in the BRB is an advanced rule, correct?
Is the section for grenades noted on the Army List entry? No?
Is the section for grenades listed in the special rules section that presents all special rules in the brb? No?
Happyjew wrote: Are there any grenades that say "see Unusual Grenades in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules"?
Not that I am aware of, but that point is moot. I don't need to show you that a condition exists for Rad Grenades to be referred to the Grenades section of the BRB. You need to show me that you have been directed to and have permission to do so with Rad Grenades. We do know that Frag, Krak, Melta, and Haywire require you to reference the BRB, however Rad Grenades do not.
In that case, the only grenades you have permission to use are those specifically found in the rulebook - meltabombs, haywire grenades, plasma grenades, krak grenades, defensive grenades, and frag grenades. Since no "unusual grenade" gives permission to use the rules for "unusual grenades" you are never able to use them.
Forrest gump time.
Happyjew why did you come to this conclusion so quickly?
Uh... because the rules told me too sarge?
Dammit happyjew, your a genius!
The wargear called rad grenades is not listed under the weapon section of the army entry list which is where a bolter would be, nor are we told to access the brb by the army entry lists either.
A specific model would be a space marine with a bolter, this is giving him permission per the entry to use the rules for the bolter.
Answer the question please.
Grenades are a special kind of weapon. So the section on grenades in the BRB is an advanced rule, correct?
Is the section for grenades noted on the Army List entry? No?
Is the section for grenades listed in the special rules section that presents all special rules in the brb? No?
Codex has precedence.
I am unclear here.
Are you saying that when a player reads a Codex he is not aware of advanced rules in the BRB?
Or are you saying that when a player reads a Codex he is aware of advanced rules in the BRB?
Off the top of my head, Blight Grenades. You follow the RAW of the Blight Grenades wargear entry that limits them to models with the Mark of Nurgle and tells you the grenades count as both assault and defensive grenades. In this we have a non-BRB grenade that directs you to the BRB to determine what counting as both assault and defensive grenades constitutes.
It doesn't actually direct you to the BRB though. It just says 'assault and defensive grenades'. How do you know to look at the BRB for what those are? It's the word 'grenades' that leads you to that section in the BRB.
'rad grenades' say 'grenades' so you similarly look to the BRB for 'grenades'.
Actually, I look up Assault Grenades (page 180) OR Defensive Grenades (page 180). I don't look up "grenades".
Those aren't in the basic rules or the special rules. Are you saying that the Codex gives you permission to look at the advanced rules in the BRB??
Spoiler:
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Grenades are a special kind of weapon. So the section on grenades in the BRB is an advanced rule, correct?
Spoiler:
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
No?
We are not told grenades are a special kind of weapon. Please tell us where this is stated.
It states in the advanced rules section that advanced rules are special rules.
So you are asking me if grenades are special rules.
Do you see grenades in the special rules section? I dont.
The statement you are quoting lists examples so you seem to be confused but that's okay. Regenerating would be IWND. A special rule boltgun would be a combi boltgun like a combi melta that would have the melta special rule. If you don't understand general statements you shouldn't read them if the words hurt you.
We are not told grenades are a special kind of weapon. Please tell us where this is stated.
It states in the advanced rules section that advanced rules are special rules.
So you are asking me if grenades are special rules.
Do you see grenades in the special rules section? I dont.
The statement you are quoting lists examples so you seem to be confused but that's okay. Regenerating would be IWND. A special rule boltgun would be a combi boltgun.
Grenades are not special, sorry.
Ceann,
are you saying that all advanced rules in the BRB are in the special rules section of the BRB?
Brother Ramses wrote:Cite page and rule that specifically shows "Blight Grenades" in the BRB.
Look dude, you tried for a gotcha question telling me to show you a non-BRB Grenades that directs you to the BRB. I caught you with your pants down and now you are fumbling your response by trying to change what you asked for and saying now even going so far as to openly lie about Blight Grenades being in the BRB. I answered your question exactly as to what you requested, pull up your pants and move on.
Wrong direction. You presented the evidence yourself and you are now ignoring it.
"Blight Grenades count as both assault and defensive grenades." What are assault and defensive grenades? Where can the be found? The rules for assault and defensive grenades are not found in the Chaos Marine codex. I look in the BRB and I find them there.
Therefore, Blight Grenades are just a form of BRB Grenades that are combined in to one entry and given a new name.
Therefore, try again.
More importantly than that, Unusual Grenades, whether Rad Grenades invokes them or not, adequately demonstrate that a Wargear can carry special rules, and as we see for the Assault Grenades use in Assault, they may not be any USR but unique to that Wargear in question.
Ceann wrote:
xlDuke wrote: You don't need explicit permission to look in the rule book, it's the book you look in to find out about rules.
Actually you are wrong and do not know the rules.
I explained all of it in the above you did not point out where a flaw was. You can look at the rulebook all you like.
Basic vs advanced rules located in the BRB tell you the basic rules that always apply. Grenades do not always apply.
Advanced rules tell us the codex has precedence. You are only permitted to consult the BRB in relation to codex material only when you are explicitly directed too by the codex. Those rules otherwise effectively do not exist.
Basic rules do not always apply. Assault Rules do not apply while doing Movement. Shooting Rules do not apply during Movement. Movement Rules do not apply during Shooting, except if you Run. Shooting Rules in Assault only apply for Overwatch.
You are often to refer to the BRB for many things. Sometimes it is to find out if they are actually providing a conflict. Sometimes it is because another rule is being referenced, such as the timing for a Charge with Rad Grenades. Sometimes it is how it relates to other rules in the game.
Not referencing the BRB just because you aren't specifically told is faulty logic.
Dude, are Blight Grenades an entry in the BRB? You asked for a non-BRB grenade that directed you to the BRB. I gave you exactly what you asked for, Blight Grenades aka a non-BRB grenade (you can't cite a page it is listed on in the BRB) whose entry tells you to count them as Assault and Defensive Grenades, both which are in the BRB that you need to reference to use the Blight Grenades. Now you are saying they are just a BRB grenades, combined with a new name which, wait for it........................makes them a non-BRB grenade. No grenade in the BRB combines both Assault and Defensive with a limitation to models with the Mark of Nurgle. By its very description it is not a BRB grenade. You got schooled thinking there wasn't one and when I showed you one, now you backtrack and just flat out ignore that it is not in the BRB.
Dude, are Blight Grenades an entry in the BRB? You asked for a non-BRB grenade that directed you to the BRB. I gave you exactly what you asked for, Blight Grenades aka a non-BRB grenade (you can't cite a page it is listed on in the BRB) whose entry tells you to count them as Assault and Defensive Grenades, both which are in the BRB that you need to reference to use the Blight Grenades. Now you are saying they are just a BRB grenades, combined with a new name which, wait for it........................makes them a non-BRB grenade. No grenade in the BRB combines both Assault and Defensive with a limitation to models with the Mark of Nurgle. By its very description it is not a BRB grenade. You got schooled thinking there wasn't one and when I showed you one, now you backtrack and just flat out ignore that it is not in the BRB.
How are you accessing the rules for assault and defensive grenades? Those rules are not in the basic rules or the special rules. The rules for assault and defensive grenades are advanced rules which are off-limits according to you.
Ceann wrote: Please go read the page buddy.
It states those rules apply to all models. It doesnt say you apply them in phases they aren't relevant in. That is just a line of foolish statements you are making to try and make what is stated there sound silly, which it is not. This is a poorly made argument on your part. Please come back with something more concrete.
You brought up the fact that basic rules always apply, not me.
Ceann wrote: As for the grenades notice the difference? Blight grenades tell you to check the BRB, so you can! They also directly refer you to check the BRB for those rules.
Rad grenades do not tell you to check the brb so you cannot.
That was not the point of the exercise. The point was to find a Grenade that refers back to the BRB that isn't a BRB grenade.
They do always apply to those models just because you are not currently using them doesn't make them not exist. They just have no relevance in the phase. I thought engaging in word soup was below you, are you bringing up nouns and vowels next?
Well you found a grenade that refers back to the brb however per advanced vs basic it provides the correct reference for the grenades section for those types which is exactly RAW.
Dude, are Blight Grenades an entry in the BRB? You asked for a non-BRB grenade that directed you to the BRB. I gave you exactly what you asked for, Blight Grenades aka a non-BRB grenade (you can't cite a page it is listed on in the BRB) whose entry tells you to count them as Assault and Defensive Grenades, both which are in the BRB that you need to reference to use the Blight Grenades. Now you are saying they are just a BRB grenades, combined with a new name which, wait for it........................makes them a non-BRB grenade. No grenade in the BRB combines both Assault and Defensive with a limitation to models with the Mark of Nurgle. By its very description it is not a BRB grenade. You got schooled thinking there wasn't one and when I showed you one, now you backtrack and just flat out ignore that it is not in the BRB.
How are you accessing the rules for assault and defensive grenades? Those rules are not in the basic rules or the special rules. The rules for assault and defensive grenades are advanced rules which are off-limits according to you.
Dear col. The rules for jump units are included in the movement rules that apply to all models. The army list entry details the unit type for you. This is explained in basic vs advanced.
We access assault and defensive grenades because the codex has a footnote telling us to do so, then we do so.
The codex or army list entry has precedence.
Does the army list entry state what type of unit is on the entry?
Yes?
Then you can access those rules.
Because per basic vs advanced you access the listed basic rules and any rules listed in the codex or army list entry.
My assault marines are a jump unit.
The list entry says jump unit for unit type.
I may access the unit type for rules.
We access assault and defensive grenades because the codex has a footnote telling us to do so, then we do so.
The Codex just says "Blight grenades count as both assault and defense grenades"
Unless the reader of the Codex is aware of the grenade section in the BRB 'assault and defense grenades' is meaningless. Are you saying that the reader of the Codex is aware of the grenade section in the BRB?
The codex or army list entry has precedence.
Does the army list entry state what type of unit is on the entry?
Yes?
Then you can access those rules.
Because per basic vs advanced you access the listed basic rules and any rules listed in the codex or army list entry.
My assault marines are a jump unit.
The list entry says jump unit for unit type.
I may access the unit type for rules.
Why are you complicating this it's quite simple.
So you are admitting that a reader of a Codex is aware of the advanced rules in the BRB and has access to the advanced rules in the BRB?
The reader can read whatever they want col.
Only what is listed on its army list entry, codex, or the aforementioned basic rules that apply to all models.
Those are the rules that apply.
Everything listed on the data sheet you can access.
Do you not understand the words of basic vs advanced?
We are supposed to be discussing rad grenades here col.
If you need help understanding the rules you should read them all.
so if a Codex mentions something that is an advanced rule in the BRB without an explicit page reference to the BRB, the player has no problem accessing that advanced rule, correct?
So basically the reader of a Codex is aware of and has access to just about anything in the BRB, correct?
Ceann wrote: The index is not a rule Col.
We are not going back to word soup.
Show me the page that tells you the index is a rule.
Who said anything about index?
Ceann, are there any sections (e..g the Unit Types section) in the BRB that a reader of Codex is blind to and cannot access and disallowed from knowing?
I am having trouble understanding if your mind works correctly.
Do you know what an ARMY LIST ENTRY is?
Basic vs advanced details what rules you are permitted to use, if you don't know then I suggest you go read it.
The ARMY LIST ENTRY will state a unit type for the entry that you are currently using your eyeballs to look at. The unit type that is listed on the data sheet is the unit type rules you are permitted to consult.
Ceann wrote:They do always apply to those models just because you are not currently using them doesn't make them not exist. They just have no relevance in the phase. I thought engaging in word soup was below you, are you bringing up nouns and vowels next?
Just saying that the definition of Basic rules does not say any such thing. You want to talk about word soup? Don't inject any of your own.
Ceann wrote:Well you found a grenade that refers back to the brb however per advanced vs basic it provides the correct reference for the grenades section for those types which is exactly RAW.
Missing the point of the exercise. Can you identify a non-BRB Grenade that tells you to refer back to the Grenades section of the BRB?
The point was why you wouldn't be referring to Grenades at all.
I am having trouble understanding if your mind works correctly.
Do you know what an ARMY LIST ENTRY is?
Basic vs advanced details what rules you are permitted to use, if you don't know then I suggest you go read it.
The ARMY LIST ENTRY will state a unit type for the entry that you are currently using your eyeballs to look at. The unit type that is listed on the data sheet is the unit type rules you are permitted to consult.
Just answer the question.
Ceann, are there any sections (e..g the Unit Types section) in the BRB that a reader of a Codex is blind to and cannot access and is disallowed from knowing?
We access assault and defensive grenades because the codex has a footnote telling us to do so, then we do so.
The Codex just says "Blight grenades count as both assault and defense grenades"
Unless the reader of the Codex is aware of the grenade section in the BRB 'assault and defense grenades' is meaningless. Are you saying that the reader of the Codex is aware of the grenade section in the BRB?
Col,
Did you even look at the page for blight grenades?
What does it say at the top left corner?
Rules for the following grenades can be found in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook:
Frag grenades*
* See assault grenades
Krak grenades
Melta bombs
Per basic vs advanced, the codex has precedence, the army list entry directs you to the page of the codex and the codex tells you to consult the BRB.
I am having trouble understanding if your mind works correctly.
Do you know what an ARMY LIST ENTRY is?
Basic vs advanced details what rules you are permitted to use, if you don't know then I suggest you go read it.
The ARMY LIST ENTRY will state a unit type for the entry that you are currently using your eyeballs to look at. The unit type that is listed on the data sheet is the unit type rules you are permitted to consult.
Just answer the question.
Ceann, are there any sections (e..g the Unit Types section) in the BRB that a reader of a Codex is blind to and cannot access and is disallowed from knowing?
Make your point Col.
I am not engaging in word soup.
You can start the sentence with something along the lines of "Well if you cannot access X then how..." or some other similiar statement.
Ceann wrote:They do always apply to those models just because you are not currently using them doesn't make them not exist. They just have no relevance in the phase. I thought engaging in word soup was below you, are you bringing up nouns and vowels next?
Just saying that the definition of Basic rules does not say any such thing. You want to talk about word soup? Don't inject any of your own.
Ceann wrote:Well you found a grenade that refers back to the brb however per advanced vs basic it provides the correct reference for the grenades section for those types which is exactly RAW.
Missing the point of the exercise. Can you identify a non-BRB Grenade that tells you to refer back to the Grenades section of the BRB?
The point was why you wouldn't be referring to Grenades at all.
Did you even look at the page for blight grenades?
What does it say at the top left corner?
Rules for the following grenades can be found in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook:
Frag grenades*
* See assault grenades
Krak grenades
Melta bombs
The codex is telling you to do this, so you do this.
For rad grenades is the codex telling you to do that?
No, it is not.
We access assault and defensive grenades because the codex has a footnote telling us to do so, then we do so.
The Codex just says "Blight grenades count as both assault and defense grenades"
Unless the reader of the Codex is aware of the grenade section in the BRB 'assault and defense grenades' is meaningless. Are you saying that the reader of the Codex is aware of the grenade section in the BRB?
Col,
Did you even look at the page for blight grenades?
What does it say at the top left corner?
Rules for the following grenades can be found in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook:
Frag grenades*
* See assault grenades
Krak grenades
Melta bombs
Per basic vs advanced, the codex has precedence, the army list entry directs you to the page of the codex and the codex tells you to consult the BRB.
So for Frag grenades, Krak grenades, and Melta bombs the Codex gives you explicit permission to check the BRB. But permission is not explicitly given by the Codex to check the BRB for assault or defensive grenades, correct?
I am having trouble understanding if your mind works correctly.
Do you know what an ARMY LIST ENTRY is?
Basic vs advanced details what rules you are permitted to use, if you don't know then I suggest you go read it.
The ARMY LIST ENTRY will state a unit type for the entry that you are currently using your eyeballs to look at. The unit type that is listed on the data sheet is the unit type rules you are permitted to consult.
Just answer the question.
Ceann, are there any sections (e..g the Unit Types section) in the BRB that a reader of a Codex is blind to and cannot access and is disallowed from knowing?
Make your point Col.
I am not engaging in word soup.
You can start the sentence with something along the lines of "Well if you cannot access X then how..." or some other similiar statement.
Ceann,
It's a straight question. Just answer it.
Are there any sections (e..g the Unit Types section) in the BRB that a reader of a Codex is blind to and cannot access and is disallowed from knowing?
So for Frag grenades, Krak grenades, and Melta bombs the Codex gives you explicit permission to check the BRB. But permission is not explicitly given by the Codex to check the BRB for assault or defensive grenades, correct?
It has *Assault grenades doesn't it? So you can access assault grenades. Not defensive grenades, not haywire grenades, not pulse grenades, not grandma's favorite grenade, not holy hand grenade.
Assault grenades, IN REFERENCE, to Blight grenades.
Why would you be blind to the units section col?
The rules in the unit section dictate the "movement, shooting, assault and morale" rules for those types of models.
The army list entry also provides the unit type of any given unit, so you have permission from there as well.
Ceann wrote: So for Frag grenades, Krak grenades, and Melta bombs the Codex gives you explicit permission to check the BRB. But permission is not explicitly given by the Codex to check the BRB for assault or defensive grenades, correct?
It has *Assault grenades doesn't it? So you can access assault grenades. Not defensive grenades, not haywire grenades, not pulse grenades, not grandma's favorite grenade, not holy hand grenade.
Why would you be blind to the units section col?
The rules in the unit section dictate the "movement, shooting, assault and morale" rules for those types of units.
The asterix for assault grenades is only applying to Frag grenades as it is written (Frag grenades* // * See assault grenades) . Blight grenades do not mention Frag grenades.
So according to you Blight grenades do not have any abilities since the reader of a Codex cannot access 'assault grenades' or 'defensive grenades', correct?
Why would you be blind to the units section col?
The rules in the unit section dictate the "movement, shooting, assault and morale" rules for those types of models.
The army list entry also provides the unit type of any given unit, so you have permission from there as well.
If you have a point make it.
Just answer the question.
Are there any sections in the BRB that a reader of a Codex is blind to and cannot access and is disallowed from knowing?
Do you even have rulebooks?
Or do you just invent anything that you wish?
Other units in the CODEX have frag grenades, so in the armory section where the wargear is listed it has a note for those army list entry's that are seeing rules for frag grenades.
This is allowing the units in the codex that DO have frag grenades to access the assault grenade rules.
Blight grenades are noted in their wargear entry to count as both assault and defensive grenades.
The frag grenades have permission to access assault grenade rules, the blight grenades entry permits them to access assault and defensive grenade rules.
All this hard work to engage down the path of word soup.
Are we at nouns and vowels yet? How much does a consonant cost?
Ceann wrote: the blight grenades entry permits them to access assault and defensive grenade rules.
The C:CSM Codex does not provide an explicit reference to the BRB here.
So, the C:CSM Codex reader knows about and accesses the section on Grenades in the BRB to find the rules for assault and defensive grenades on his own without explicit reference given by the Codex, correct?
In other words, a Codex reader knows about and has access to the advanced rules in the BRB (including the advanced rules for Grenades), correct?
Rules for the following grenades can be found in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook:
Frag grenades*
* See assault grenades
Krak grenades
Melta bombs
The asterix applies to Frag grenades.
Are Blight grenades described as Frag grenades, Krak grenades, or Melta Bombs? If they are not then Blight grenades do not have an explicit reference to the BRB.
And, Ceanne, are you going to just forget about the defensive grenades abilities?
Are you seriously proposing that Blight grenades do not have defensive grenades ability???
Ceann wrote: No Col, not at all.
You are trying to play word games again.
You forget that you take Blight Grenades as an option on your army list entry.
Since they count as assault and defensive grenades you have permission because they are on your list entry to apply those rules.
The C:CSM Codex does not provide an explicit reference to the BRB to assault or defensive grenades in the case of Blight grenades.
So, the C:CSM Codex reader knows about and accesses the section on Grenades in the BRB to find the rules for assault and defensive grenades on his own without explicit reference given by the Codex, correct?
In other words, a Codex reader knows about and has access to the advanced rules in the BRB (including the advanced rules for Grenades), correct?
Ceann wrote: Is anyone else learning how these rules work for the first time?
I can start a class.
Can we talk about rad grenades yet?
Answer the questions.
The C:CSM Codex does not provide an explicit reference to the BRB to assault or defensive grenades in the case of Blight grenades.
So, the C:CSM Codex reader knows about and accesses the section on Grenades in the BRB to find the rules for assault and defensive grenades on his own without explicit reference given by the Codex, correct?
In other words, a Codex reader knows about and has access to the advanced rules in the BRB (including the advanced rules for Grenades), correct?
The basic vs advanced rules state that the codex and the army list entry's have precedence.
The army list entry tells me I can select blight grenades, so I do.
The codex rules for blight grenades tell me they count as assault and defensive grenades.
Therefore assault and defensive grenades are related to blight grenades on my army list entry.
I have permission to access assault and defensive grenades because my codex told me blight grenades count as those.
The basic vs advanced rules state that the codex and the army list entry's have precedence.
The army list entry tells me I can select blight grenades, so I do.
The codex rules for blight grenades tell me they count as assault and defensive grenades.
Therefore assault and defensive grenades are related to blight grenades on my army list entry.
I have permission to access assault and defensive grenades because my codex told me blight grenades count as those.
Why aren't you answering these straightforward questions?
So, the C:CSM Codex reader knows about and accesses the section on Grenades in the BRB to find the rules for assault and defensive grenades on his own without explicit reference given by the Codex, correct?
In other words, a Codex reader knows about and has access to the advanced rules in the BRB (including the advanced rules for Grenades), correct?
Where are we told that grenades are advanced rules?
Advanced rules are special rules, grenades are no special rules.
These are the rules I am following Col.
Basic vs Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise.They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Ceann wrote: Where are we told that grenades are advanced rules?
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let me help you out Col.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.
You see? advanced rule is being used as another term for special rule. They are the same thing.
All special rules are presented in the special rules section of the BRB.
You really should read the entire Basic vs Advanced box it has a lot of helpful information.
Can we talk about rad grenades yet?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I...?
I don't mean anything Col.
I am doing exactly what the rules state on Basic vs Advanced.
Let me help you out Col.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.
You see? advanced rule is being used as another term for special rule. They are the same thing.
All special rules are presented in the special rules section of the BRB.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.
You see? advanced rule is being used as another term for special rule. They are the same thing.
All special rules are presented in the special rules section of the BRB.
So what kind of rule is the Jet Pack rule?
It's not a basic rule. It's not a special rule according to you since it does not appear in the Special Rules section.
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
I am not sure there is a rule called "Jet Pack"
The movement rules for models in jetpack units can be found on page 66 of the BRB, we know about jetpack units from the army list entry of our jetpack unit, such as assault marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can we talk about rad grenades yet?
What do jump pack units have to do with rad grenades?
Can an inquisitor take a jump pack now?
Ceann wrote: Basic vs Advanced "you should really read this"
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
I am not sure there is a rule called "Jet Pack"
The movement rules for models in jetpack units can be found on page 66 of the BRB, we know about jetpack units from the army list entry of our jetpack unit, such as assault marines.
Page 66 is not a basic rule section. The rules on page 66 do not apply to all models in the game. Page 66 is also not in the special rules section.
Jet Pack unit type is not a basic rule and it's not a special rule. So what kind of rule is it? Same thing with Skyborne and Thrust move - what kind of rules are those?
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models.
Lets take a look at units that are not normal infantry models.
Hmmm Jetpack units hmmm yes.
Special rules - Jet Pack units have the Bulky, Deepstrike and Relentless special rules.
Hm ok Beasts now.
Special Rules - Beasts have the Fleet special rule.
Calvary?
Fleet and hammer of wrath?
Do I need to continue or are you still playing word soup?
The advanced rules for different unit types are listed on those unit type pages.
Page 66 includes the movement rules that apply to ALL models for this unit type.
Jet Pack is a type of unit Col.
As they are not infantry they automatically have certain special rules, sorry, "advanced rules" that are all presented in the special rules section of the BRB.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.
That is from basic vs advanced Col.
The section I have been telling you to read.
Can you read the section Col.
Pretty please,
With a cherry on top?
And come back when you actually have a relevant argument instead of taking a tommy gun style of asking silly questions hoping one finds a crack?
What kind of rules are Skyborne, Thrust Move, Flight Modes, Swooping Hunters, Hard to Hit, Leaving Combat Airspace, Grounded Tests, Stomp, Unstoppable, all the vehicle rules, the character rules? None of these rules are basic or special.
Those rules all pertain to movement, shooting and close combat, Col.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are you done with word soup?
Can we talk about rad grenades?
Ceann wrote: Those rules all pertain to movement Col.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Basic rules apply to all models in the game.
So Skyborne, Thrust Move, Flight Modes, Swooping Hunters, Hard to Hit, Leaving Combat Airspace, Grounded Tests, Stomp, Unstoppable, all the vehicle rules, and the character rules are basic rules and apply to all models?
Ceann wrote: Movement rules apply to all models in the game.
The unit type determines which movement rules you use, which is stated on the Army List Entry.
Are you done with word soup?
Can we talk about rad grenades?
Or do you need more help with basic rules first?
So the unit type rules, the vehicle rules, and the character rules are not basic rules.
What kind of rules are they?
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Are you done with word soup?
Can we talk about rad grenades?
Or do you need more help with basic rules first?
Automatically Appended Next Post: If they are not listed in the special rules section of the BRB where all special rules are presented, then they are a basic rules.
Are you done with word soup?
Can we talk about rad grenades?
Or do you need more help with basic rules first?
Automatically Appended Next Post: If they are not listed in the special rules section of the BRB where all special rules are presented, then they are a basic rules.
So my Warrior model has all these rules? Skyborne, Thrust Move, Flight Modes, Swooping Hunters, Hard to Hit, Leaving Combat Airspace, Grounded Tests, Stomp, Unstoppable, all the vehicle rules, and the character rules.
What about the psychic rules? What kind of rules are those?
That is an advanced rule that applys to a specific type of model.
Whether they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun) a combi weapon is a boltgun that has special rules. A melta gun is a weapon that has special rules.
Unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate) IWND.
Do I need to explain characters and tanks too or you got it now?
All of the types of things being referred to here are located in the special rules section where all special rules are presented.
Are you done with word soup?
Can we talk about rad grenades?
Or do you need more help with basic rules first?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Why would your Warrior model have all of those Col.
What does his Army List Entry say he is as a unit?
Since you are talking about something from a codex.
Ceann wrote: Advanced rules apply to specific types of models.
Remember how beasts have fleet Col?
That is an advanced rule that applys to a specific type of model.
Whether they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun) a combi weapon is a boltgun that has special rules. A melta gun is a weapon that has special rules.
Unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate) IWND.
Do I need to explain characters and tanks too or you got it now?
All of the types of things being referred to here are located in the special rules section where all special rules are presented.
Are you done with word soup?
Can we talk about rad grenades?
Or do you need more help with basic rules first?
Ah ok, so Skyborne, Thrust Move, Flight Modes, Swooping Hunters, Hard to Hit, Leaving Combat Airspace, Grounded Tests, Stomp, Unstoppable, all the vehicle rules, and the character rules are all Advanced Rules that apply to specific kinds of models, correct?
And 'boltgun' is an Advanced Rule since its a special kind of weapon, correct?
So, basically any rule that specifies something beyond the basic movement, shooting, close combat, and morale rules that all infantry share is an Advanced Rule, correct?
No Col, they are basic rules.
They apply to units of a particular type.
Our army list entry tells us what our unit type is.
We use the unit type to ensure we use those rules for our model.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No col "boltgun" is not an advanced rule.
All advanced rules are located in the special rules section of the BRB where all special rules are presented.
We know that advanced rules are special rules in basic vs advanced.
For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.
Are you done with word soup?
Or trying to break the entire game?
Can we talk about rad grenades yet?
Ceann wrote: No Col, they are basic rules.
They apply to units of a particular type.
Our army list entry tells us what our unit type is.
We use the unit type to ensure we use those rules for our model.
Basic rules apply to all models in the game.
Those rules would be in the Core Rules, Models and Units, General Principles, the Turn, the Movement Phase, the Shooting Phase, Weapons, the Assault Phase, and Morale sections.
The Unit Type rules, vehicle rules, and character rules do not apply to all models in the game.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
'boltgun' is an advanced rule by virtue of the definition of advanced rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: I am glad that you understand that basic rules apply to all models in the game.
The Unit type rules, vehicle rules, character rules, ranged weapons rules, melee weapons rules, and grenades rules are not basic rules. They are advanced rules, correct?
Advanced rule is a term for a rule describing an ability or special kind of weapon on a specific model that is beyond the ability and rules of basic infantry.
Happyjew wrote: Are there any grenades that say "see Unusual Grenades in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules"?
Not that I am aware of, but that point is moot. I don't need to show you that a condition exists for Rad Grenades to be referred to the Grenades section of the BRB. You need to show me that you have been directed to and have permission to do so with Rad Grenades. We do know that Frag, Krak, Melta, and Haywire require you to reference the BRB, however Rad Grenades do not.
In that case, the only grenades you have permission to use are those specifically found in the rulebook - meltabombs, haywire grenades, plasma grenades, krak grenades, defensive grenades, and frag grenades. Since no "unusual grenade" gives permission to use the rules for "unusual grenades" you are never able to use them.
Forrest gump time.
Happyjew why did you come to this conclusion so quickly?
Uh... because the rules told me too sarge?
Dammit happyjew, your a genius!
It's quite simple. I was told that since Rad Grenades do not direct me to use the Unusual Grenades rules, I do not have permission to use them. I asked for a grenade that does reference the Unusual Grenades rule. I was told there are not any, but it doesn't matter because it is on me to show permission to use those rules. If I need to show permission to use Unusual Grenades, and no unusual grenades specifically direct me the rulebook, the only logical conclusion is that I cannot use said grenades, because there is no permission to follow the rules associated with them. I didn't need to point this out to my sarge, just my chief.
Ceann wrote: Basic vs Advanced
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
Are we done playing word soup yet?
The Unit type rules, vehicle rules, character rules, ranged weapons rules, melee weapons rules, and grenades rules are not basic rules. They are advanced rules, correct?
Advanced rule is a term for a rule describing an ability or special kind of weapon on a specific model that is beyond the ability and rules of basic infantry.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence
model has a special rule - advanced rule takes precedence
Ceann wrote: The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence
model has a special rule - advanced rule takes precedence
special rule - advanced rule
So when a Jet Pack unit type shows up on an Army List Entry, the Jet Pack unit type rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to that model, correct?
So when a boltgun shows up on an Army List Entry, the boltgun rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to that model so equipped, correct?
And when 'tank' shows up on an Army List Entry, the 'tank' rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to that model, correct?
And when 'bike' shows up on an Army List Entry, the 'bike' unit type rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to that model, correct?
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Ceann wrote: No Col.
Advanced rules apply to a unit, a unit has fleet, a unit has relentless, a unit has hammer of wrath.
These are listed on an Army List Entry.
Basic rules apply to models.
They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
This is in the basic vs advanced section.
The rules disagree with you.
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Ceann wrote: No Col.
Advanced rules apply to a unit, a unit has fleet, a unit has relentless, a unit has hammer of wrath.
These are listed on an Army List Entry.
Basic rules apply to models.
They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
This is in the basic vs advanced section.
The rules disagree with you.
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Let me help you.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a
special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability
to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader
or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,
a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.
So when a Jet Pack unit
So when a Jet Pack unit
So when a Jet Pack unit
So when a Jet Pack unit type shows up on an Army List Entry, the Jet Pack unit type rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the models in that unit, correct?
So when a boltgun shows up on an Army List Entry, the boltgun rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the models so equipped in that unit, correct?
And when 'tank' shows up on an Army List Entry, the 'tank' rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the model(s) in the unit, correct?
And when 'bike' shows up on an Army List Entry, the 'bike' unit type rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the models in that unit, correct?
col_impact wrote: So when a Jet Pack unit type shows up on an Army List Entry, the Jet Pack unit type rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the models in that unit, correct?
So when a boltgun shows up on an Army List Entry, the boltgun rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the models so equipped in that unit, correct?
And when 'tank' shows up on an Army List Entry, the 'tank' rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the model(s) in the unit, correct?
And when 'bike' shows up on an Army List Entry, the 'bike' unit type rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the models in that unit, correct?
1. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
If you would like to see what special rules a Jump Pack Unit has check the special rules for jump pack units.
2 BRB Page 156.
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type.
That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.
3. Are the tank rules used for movement, shooting, assault or morale? Then they are basic rules.
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They
include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale.
4. Are the bike rules used for movement, shooting, assault or morale? Then they are basic rules.
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They
include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale.
1. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
If you would like to see what special rules a Jump Pack Unit has check the special rules for jump pack units.
2 BRB Page 156.
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type.
That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.
3. Are the tank rules used for movement, shooting, assault or morale? Then they are basic rules.
4. Are the bike rules used for movement, shooting, assault or morale? Then they are basic rules.
The rules don't agree with you.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The BvA rule is clearly not referring to boltgun, character, bike, or tank as basic rules.
The BvA rule is clearly indicating that 'boltgun', 'bike', 'character', and 'tank' are advanced rules, correct?
Can we please talk about rad grenades now Col?
You are going to go through the entire 40k rulebook trying to find a way to link back to unusual grenades.
You have lost like 30 arguments trying to weasel your way into doing it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Ceann wrote: Can we please talk about rad grenades now Col?
You are going to go through the entire 40k rulebook trying to find a way to link back to unusual grenades.
You have lost like 30 arguments trying to weasel your way into doing it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
The rules don't agree with you.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
The BvA rule is clearly not referring to boltgun, character, bike, or tank as basic rules.
The BvA rule is clearly indicating that 'boltgun', 'bike', 'character', and 'tank' are advanced rules, correct?
Bike rules and tank rules do not apply to all models in the game and so cannot be basic rules.
If you cannot adhere to the correct use of advanced rules then your entire argument is flawed.
No col.
What they are referring to is that certain unit types, listed in the units section.
Have set special rules that come with them.
Not that you get to pick and decide which ones you like.
Beasts have Fleet
Fleet is a special rule
Beasts have fleet because they are not normal infantry models.
Boltguns, there is no weapon called boltguns, there are weapons that are boltguns that have special rules.
Character, Coteaz, has special rules specific to Coteaz.
Basic vs Advanced
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: We are playing word soup now Col.
We have come all this way, back to word soup, because you have exhausted intelligent arguments.
Ceann wrote: No col.
What they are referring to is that certain unit types, listed in the units section.
Have set special rules that come with them.
Not that you get to pick and decide which ones you like.
Beasts have Fleet
Fleet is a special rule
Beasts have fleet because they are not normal infantry models.
Boltguns, there is no weapon called boltguns, there are weapons that are boltguns that have special rules.
Character, Coteaz, has special rules specific to Coteaz.
Basic vs Advanced
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: We are playing word soup now Col.
We have come all this way, back to word soup, because you have exhausted intelligent arguments.
The rules don't agree with you.
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
The BvA rule is clearly not referring to boltgun, character, bike, or tank as basic rules.
The BvA rule is clearly indicating that 'boltgun', 'bike', 'character', and 'tank' are advanced rules, correct?
Bike rules and tank rules do not apply to all models in the game and so cannot be basic rules.
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model.
If you cannot adhere to the correct use of advanced rules then your entire argument is flawed.
Ceann wrote: Whats an advanced rule Col?
Where do I find them?
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB (with the exception of the Psychic Phase rules which are all Advanced Rules)
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Until you adhere to the rules, your argument is invalid.
This SECTION contain ALL the BASIC rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40k battles.
ALL the BASIC rules
ALL BASIC RULES
Whats in the core rules section?
Everything that isn't in the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and ability's.
The splash page, page 155 for Appendix
This section contains all of the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and ability's that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
section contains ALL of the ADVANCED RULES
ALL ADVANCED RULES
Are any of the things you listed in the Appendix?
No?
Ceann wrote: The splash page, page 7, for Core Rules states...
This SECTION contains ALL the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40k battles.
The splash page, page 155 for Appendix
This section contains all of the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and abilitys that you can use to add varierty to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Is Chapter Tactics an Advanced Rule? What about Strength from Death or Power from Pain?
Col wants to move 37 continents, align the stars, perform a cabal ritual sacrifice to make rad grenades into unusual grenades.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Either that or I shattered his entire world by demonstrating the only rules in the rulebook that aren't special rules are the ones in the special rules section and he is busy collecting himself.
Ceann wrote: The splash page, page 7, for Core Rules states...
This SECTION contain ALL the BASIC rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40k battles.
ALL the BASIC rules
ALL the BASIC rules
Whats in the core rules section?
Everything that isn't in the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and ability's.
That's not correct. Unit Types and onward up to the Appendix are not part of the Core Rules section so they are not basic rules. Similarly, Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle are not part of the Core Rules and so are not basic rules.
Ceann wrote: The splash page, page 155 for Appendix
This section contains all of the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and ability's that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
section contains all of the ADVANCED RULES
section contains all of the ADVANCED RULES
Are any of the things you listed in the Appendix?
No?
Can we move on from word soup now?
Cool. So the rules in the Grenade section are advanced rules.
Ceann wrote: Col, do I still have an argument?
You there buddy?
Automatically Appended Next Post: No col, grenades are not advanced rules.
They are weaponry.
Any rules in the Grenades section are advanced rules by virtue of being in the Appendix.
A grenade is a special kind of weapon and so it provides access to the grenade advanced rule when a model is equipped with it.
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
Ceann wrote: No Col,
There is a comma there.
Advanced rules are separate from weaponry, just like weaponry is separate from ability's.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can we talk about rad grenades now?
Are the grenade rules in the Appendix or not?
Any rules in the Grenades section are advanced rules by virtue of being in the Appendix.
A grenade is a special kind of weapon and so it provides access to the grenade advanced rule when a model is equipped with it.
Spoiler:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
And further, what kind of rules are the rules in the Unit Type section? We know that they are not basic rules - they aren't in the Core Rules section.
Ceann wrote: What is a basic rule?
What is an advanced rule?
What is a special rule?
1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.
2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.
That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Ceann wrote: What is a basic rule?
What is an advanced rule?
What is a special rule?
1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.
2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.
That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Incorrect Col.
1.ALL advanced rules are located in the Appendix.
Units are not located in the Appendix, therefore they cannot be advanced rules.
Therefore all units rules are basic rules.
2."Special rules are in the special rules section"
Special rules are advanced rules per Basic vs Advanced.
A compendium of special rules -
"We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule."
The Special Rules section is from page 156 to page 174.
At the top of each page it says Special Rules.
Page 176 changes the section at the top to weaponry.
Weaponry do not equal special rules.
Therefore...
Weaponry do not equal advanced rules.
Therefore...
Weaponry are basic rules.
1.ALL advanced rules are located in the Appendix.
Units are not located in the Appendix, therefore they cannot be advanced rules.
Therefore all units rules are basic rules.
Apparently you are not actually reading the rules that you brought to my attention.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Appendix - This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
1) So basic rules have to be in the Core Rules section since that section contains all of them. The Unit Type section is its own section and is NOT in the Core Rules section. Any rules in the Unit Types section are NOT basic rules.
2) Advanced rules do not have to be in the Appendix. The Appendix does not state that it contains all of the advanced rules. The Appendix is just a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities, so advanced rules could also be in some other section.
So if Basic versus Advanced is a dichotomy such that a rule is either basic or advanced we can conclude that the rules in the Unit Type section are advanced rules.
Appendix - This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
The only advanced rules in the Appendix are special rules.
Per special rules section - Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.
Per A Compendium of Special Rules -
We’ve presented them ALL in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.
Special rules are so important that many of the other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for troop types) are tied into the special rules given here.
Which will clarify ...."Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Only special rules supersede basic rules.
All special rules in the BRB are presented in the special rules section.
Therefore all advanced rules are all special rules.
Therefore all advanced rules are in the special rules section.
Therefore units are not advanced rules.
Therefore units are not in the special rules section.
Therefore units are basic rules.
Appendix - This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
The only advanced rules in the Appendix are special rules.
There is nothing to support this claim. Advanced rules could be in the Grenades section.
Per special rules section - Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.
Per A Compendium of Special Rules -
We’ve presented them ALL in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule.
Special rules are so important that many of the other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for troop types) are tied into the special rules given here.
Cool. So there is a section for Special Rules.
Ceann wrote: Which will clarify ...."Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Only special rules supersede basic rules.
Incorrect. Advanced rules supersede basic rules as well.
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
Therefore all advanced rules are all special rules.
You have no proof backing this claim.
Ceann wrote: Therefore all advanced rules are in the special rules section.
Again no proof. Where do you see a rule establishing that Special Rules is synonymous with Advanced Rules? You are clearly treating them as synonyms but have never proved it. Where is your proof?
Unit is a basic rule, but all the rules in the Unit Types section are NOT basic rules.
Spoiler:
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
The Unit Types section is an entirely different section than the Core Rules section and so by virtue of the above rule declaration cannot be basic rules.
Your logical argumentation here is terrible. Make sure to read the rule statements carefully. In fact, at this point we are witnessing your argument completely falling apart.
This is what we know based on the rules as written and logic . . .
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Appendix - This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
1) So basic rules have to be in the Core Rules section since that section contains all of them. The Unit Type section is its own section and is NOT in the Core Rules section. Any rules in the Unit Types section are NOT basic rules.
2) Advanced rules do not have to be in the Appendix. The Appendix does not state that it contains all of the advanced rules. The Appendix is just a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities, so advanced rules could also be in some other section.
So if Basic versus Advanced is a dichotomy such that a rule is either basic or advanced we can conclude that the rules in the Unit Type section (and any section for that matter that is not in the Core Rules section) are advanced rules.
Ceann wrote: The book doesn't contradict itself, he is performing word soup again.
Your consistently proven wrong yet fail to admit or acknowledge the arguments or questions. Considering your doing the exact same thing you accuse him of doing, I find it hilarious that you two are arguing. This thread should have been locked 10 pages ago when you started ducking questions.
It really isn't.
You are engaging in a silly game in order to try to invalidate an argument rather than arguing the point because you cannot win arguing the point.
Per basic vs Advanced
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.
Page 62 Unit Types
In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
Characteristic profiles are located in the core rules.
Therefore unit types are basic rules.
Per Basic vs Advanced
If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.
Ceann wrote: The book doesn't contradict itself, he is performing word soup again.
Your consistently proven wrong yet fail to admit or acknowledge the arguments or questions. Considering your doing the exact same thing you accuse him of doing, I find it hilarious that you two are arguing. This thread should have been locked 10 pages ago when you started ducking questions.
*You're.
You are having an emotional response to my argument so are glad to perceive it as wrong.
The issue is that you were asking a loaded question that didn't have an answer.
Because you actually don't understand the rules at all.
So did you post to participate or just because you were bored and wanted to harass me again?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The problem is your question is not a legitimate question because of the way you are framing it.
Ceann wrote: It really isn't.
You are engaging in a silly game in order to try to invalidate an argument rather than arguing the point because you cannot win arguing the point.
Per basic vs Advanced
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.
Page 62 Unit Types
In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
Characteristic profiles are located in the core rules.
Therefore unit types are basic rules.
Your argument is ridiculously unsound here. An extension of the characteristic profile could involve advanced rules.
The rules in the Unit Type section are NOT basic rules.
Spoiler:
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Ceann wrote: Per Basic vs Advanced
If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.
Therefore a special rule is an advanced rule.
Sure all special rules are advanced rules. But not all advanced rules are special rules. Special rules are a subset of advanced rules.
The rules in the Unit Types section CANNOT be basic rules so per the dichotomy of basic versus advanced they are advanced rules while not being special rules.
In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
Characteristic profile's are located in the core rules section. Unit's are located directly after characteristic profile's in the core rules.
Unit type is an extension of that profile, it is therefore a basic rule.
You are right all of the rules in the unit type section are not basic rules Col.
If you looked at the section you will see the special rules located for each unit type that has those special rules.
Like Fleet, Relentless, Hammer of Wrath.
In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
Characteristic profile's are located in the core rules section. Unit's are located directly after characteristic profile's in the core rules.
Unit type is an extension of that profile, it is therefore a basic rule.
Your argument is ridiculously unsound here. An extension of the characteristic profile could involve advanced rules.
The rules in the Unit Type section are NOT basic rules.
Spoiler:
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
The Unit Types section is an entirely different section than the Core Rules section and so by virtue of the above rule declaration cannot be basic rules.
In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
Characteristic profile's are located in the core rules section. Unit's are located directly after characteristic profile's in the core rules.
Unit type is an extension of that profile, it is therefore a basic rule.
Special rules are also located in Unit Type section.
If you looked at the section you will see the special rules located for each unit type that has those special rules.
Like Fleet, Relentless, Hammer of Wrath.
So it is correct the Unit Type Section does not contain all basic rules.
In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
Characteristic profile's are located in the core rules section. Unit's are located directly after characteristic profile's in the core rules.
Unit type is an extension of that profile, it is therefore a basic rule.
Special rules are also located in Unit Type section.
If you looked at the section you will see the special rules located for each unit type that has those special rules.
Like Fleet, Relentless, Hammer of Wrath.
So it is correct the Unit Type Section does not contain all basic rules.
The Unit Type section does not contain ANY basic rules. All the basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
All the rules in the Unit Type section are Advanced Rules if the dichotomy Basic versus Advanced applies to all rules.
1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.
2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.
That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Units are a part of Characteristic profiles.
Unit types are an extension of Characteristic profiles,
Characteristic profiles are a basic rule.
Units are a basic rule.
Therefore unit types are a basic rule.
The unit types section contains special rules. Special rules are located in the advanced rules of the appendix.
Unit types are a sub-type of units.
No new basic rules are being added to the core rules.
Profiles for unit types are being provided.
Ceann wrote: Page 8 of core rules
Models and Units
Units are a part of Characteristic profiles.
Unit types are an extension of Characteristic profiles,
Characteristic profiles are a basic rule.
Units are a basic rule.
Therefore unit types are a basic rule.
The unit types section contains special rules. Special rules are located in the advanced rules of the appendix.
Unit types are a sub-type of units.
No new basic rules are being added to the core rules.
Profiles for unit types are being provided.
All rules page 62 and after are NOT basic rules. They are advanced rules.
Spoiler:
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Page 62 is the beginning of the sections of the book that come after the Core Rules section. All the basic rules are in the Core Rules section. This leaves advanced rules for all rules not in the Core Rules section.
Basic vs Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
How to use weapons and weapon profile rules are located in the core rules.
Using a weapon is a basic rule.
Therefore all weapons are basic rules.
Because just as you said all basic rules are in the core rules.
Therefore all grenades in the weaponry section are basic rules.
Therefore advanced rules are special rules.
Basic vs Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
How to use weapons and weapon profile rules are located in the core rules.
Using a weapon is a basic rule.
Therefore all weapons are basic rules.
Therefore all grenades in the weaponry section are basic rules.
Therefore advanced rules are special rules.
All the basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
Spoiler:
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
The Core Rules do provide rules that "apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. . . . [the Core Rules] include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Any rule outside the Core Rules section is an advanced rule.
We also have codex precedence telling us that unit types do not follow advanced rules, they follow rules.
Basic vs Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Per Army List Entry
6. Unit Type: This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a
number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Show me some rules that are advanced rules Col.
Ceann wrote: We also have codex precedence telling us that unit types do not follow advanced rules, they follow rules.
Basic vs Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
Per Army List Entry
6. Unit Type: This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a
number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Show me some rules that are advanced rules Col.
Open up the BRB to the Unit Types section and any section after that. Just make sure you are not in the Core Rules section where the Basic Rules are.
All the rules outside the Core Rules section are advanced rules and can supersede the basic rules in the Core Rules section.
The Unit Type section does not contain ANY basic rules. All the basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
All the rules in the Unit Type section are Advanced Rules if the dichotomy Basic versus Advanced applies to all rules.
1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.
2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale (the basic rules are found in the Core Rules section)
Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.
That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
We are using Army List Entry.
The rules for Army List Entry are in the codex.
The codex supersedes the BRB.
The Army List Entry states that unit types are rules not advanced rules.
Per Basic vs Advanced the Codex has precedence.
Unit types are basic rules when used in a codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 8. Wargear: This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are armed with, many of which are described in more detail in the Appendix of this book. The
cost for all the unit’s basic equipment is included in its points cost.
Grenades in the codex fall under wargear.
Wargear per the Army List Entry is BASIC equipment, not advanced equipment.
Weapons are basic rules in the codex.
A grenade is a weapon.
A grenade is a basic weapon.
1.ALL advanced rules are located in the Appendix.
Units are not located in the Appendix, therefore they cannot be advanced rules.
Therefore all units rules are basic rules.
2."Special rules are in the special rules section"
Special rules are advanced rules per Basic vs Advanced.
A compendium of special rules -
"We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule."
The Special Rules section is from page 156 to page 174.
At the top of each page it says Special Rules.
Page 176 changes the section at the top to weaponry.
Weaponry do not equal special rules.
Therefore...
Weaponry do not equal advanced rules.
Therefore...
Weaponry are basic rules.
Can we talk about rad grenades yet?
Incorrect. I don't know what Col_Ignored is posting, but you have repeatedly posted some errors in accuracy.
1) "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale." - Basic vs Advanced.
2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry." - Basic vs Advanced.
3) Special rules are not exclusive to the Special Rules section, because they are, "(w)henever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules". Location means nothing in qualifying what is or is not a "special rule". There is a compendium that lists all the universal ones that can be found on many different units and unit types, but it is not, "an exhaustive list".
You have been corrected on this numerous times now. Basic rules cover from The Turn through Morale. Unit Types are Advanced Rules (except for Infantry). Universal Special Rules are Advanced Rules. The rules for the Grenades are Advanced Rules.
We are using Army List Entry.
The rules for Army List Entry are in the codex.
The codex supersedes the BRB.
The Army List Entry states that unit types are rules not advanced rules.
Per Basic vs Advanced the Codex has precedence.
Unit types are basic rules when used in a codex.
'rules' is not specific. It could refer to basic rules or advanced rules. If the rule referred to is in the Core Rules section then its a basic rule. If its not then its an advanced rule.
Ceann wrote: 8. Wargear: This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are armed with, many of which are described in more detail in the Appendix of this book. The
cost for all the unit’s basic equipment is included in its points cost.
Grenades in the codex fall under wargear.
Wargear per the Army List Entry is BASIC equipment, not advanced equipment.
Weapons are basic rules in the codex.
A grenade is a weapon.
This is a shoddy argument. The adjective 'basic' does not equal 'basic rule'. 'Basic' is being used here to describe the Army List Entries starting gear which is why it's include in the points cost.
The discussion is suppose to be about rad grenades, yet you do anything except talk about them.
You have changed your argument what 20,30+ times? More?
And you say I have a shoddy argument?
Apparently not so shoddy if you have been going at it all day and have been unable to prove your point. If anything you have not had a good argument and you are more concerned about debating nonsense than making sure the rule is actually properly sorted out.
The discussion is suppose to be about rad grenades, yet you do anything except talk about them.
You have changed your argument what 20,30+ times? More?
And you say I have a shoddy argument?
Apparently not so shoddy if you have been going at it all day and have been unable to prove your point. If anything you have not had a good argument and you are more concerned about debating nonsense than making sure the rule is actually properly sorted out.
Your argument was based on a slough of misunderstanding of basic terms.
We need to agree on a use of terms that is grounded in the rules.
1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.
2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale (the basic rules are found in the Core Rules section)
Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.
That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
When an Army Entry List mentions 'grenades', the reader of the Codex is fully aware of and applies the advanced rules from the Grenades section. The Codex does not insert its own definition of 'grenades' since it has none. Those advanced rules include the rules for Unusual Grenades.
If advanced rules are in the units section why does the index say advanced rules are on page 13?
If the source of advanced rules are on page 13 that makes advanced rules, basic rules, as advanced rules are located in the core rules section.
ALL basic rules are located in the core rules section.
Ceann wrote: If advanced rules are in the units section why does the index say advanced rules are on page 13?
If the source of advanced rules are on page 13 that makes advanced rules, basic rules, as advanced rules are located in the core rules section.
ALL basic rules are located in the core rules section.
The Basic Versus Advanced rule is a basic rule that is applied to all models but you will find the actual advanced rules outside of the Core Rules section.
Summary
Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.
2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale (the basic rules are found in the Core Rules section)
Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.
That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
When an Army Entry List mentions 'grenades', the reader of the Codex is fully aware of and applies the advanced rules from the Grenades section. The Codex does not insert its own definition of 'grenades' since it has none. Those advanced rules include the rules for Unusual Grenades.
And don't your precious advanced rules say they apply to models?
2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Units are not models.
Units contain models.
Units are not advanced rules.
Units are located in the core rules section.
Unit types are a characteristic of Units.
Unit types are Units.
Advanced rules apply to specific MODELS.
Advanced rules cannot apply to Units, they apply to specific models.
Unit types are not advanced rules.
The Appendix has a compendium of advanced rules.
A compendium is... a collection of concise but detailed information about a particular subject, especially in a book or other publication
Or also... a full list or inventory.
We are looking for a list of one subject.
The special rules list, is a list of one subject.
The weaponry is a list of three subjects.
The ability's is multiple subjects.
If the contents of the appendix are a full inventory, then unit types are not advanced rules, as they are not in the contents of the full inventory.
The appendix is described as having three sections, the first section is advanced rules, the second is weaponry and the third is ability's.
We are looking for advanced rules.
Using the following criteria...
""""""Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)." """""
We find that the rules of the first section of the appendix called special rules fits the description of advanced rules and are also a single subject.
We have found the compendium of advanced rules.
Boltgun - Combimelta, unusual skills such as the ability to regenerate - IWND, they are different from to their fellows - IC, even a tank - relentless. These also all apply to a specific model.
The first section of the appendix is the special rules section, therefore advanced rules are special rules.
The list of special rules satisfy's providing a full list or inventory.
The special rules section states...
"We’ve presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule."
This also coincides with a compendium.
As they are in a single section, therefore all advanced rules in the BRB are located in one section.
This is also stated...
Most of the more commonly used special rules in Warhammer 40,000 are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which
are laid out in their codex or Army List Entry.
We understand that there are OTHER special rules as the list is not exhaustive, however in regards to the BRB it is, because all the rules have been presented in a single section, other special rules are located in their codex or Army List Entry.
Therefore we have all advanced rules "special rules" in the BRB accounted for and located, they are in the "Special Rules" section of the BRB.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Special Rules...
Acute Senses
If a unit contains at least one model
Adamantium Will
A unit that contains at least one model
And They Shall Know No Fear
unit that contains at least one model
Blind
Any unit hit by one or more models
Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers
A unit containing at least one model
Bulky
Bulky models count as two models
Daemon
Models
Eternal Warrior
If a model
Fearless
Units containing one or more models
Looks pretty accurate to me.
"""Advanced rules apply to specific types of models""
Ceann I salute your trolling 16 pages is truely impressive I didn't think youd make it past ten
stop falling for it he's never going to admit he's wrong this thread is 49% 1 person telling everyone else there wrong and obscuring anything meaningfull
I don't want your stupid salute, I am not trolling.
I claim to have an understanding of the rules that you do not and rather than attempt to see my point of view you post nonsensical statements about trolling.
He is wrong and I know he is wrong and I can demonstrate rules wise that he is wrong. HE is trying to find a loophole in the rules to allow him to use unusual grenades to apply them to rad grenades. Clearly you have nothing to add to the discussion.
It's not a loophole, the word 'grenades' has been spotted so we've gone to look at 'grenades' in the rulebook (we don't ever need permission to look in that book); in this section there is writing that explains that grenades without a profile are Unusual Grenades so we deduce that what we're looking at may well be an Unusual Grenade. This further explains that these Unusual Grenades will outline their own Special Rules so we conclude that the text for Rad Grenades is likely to be a Special Rule and as such does not stack. Even if you don't subscribe to that train of thoughts and don't treat the text as a Special Rule the wording of Rad Grenades doesn't seem to allow them to stack anyway. If my unit has charged or been charged by 10 units with Rad Grenades it is still just a turn in which I have charged or been charged by a unit with Rad Grenades, and as such I -1 from my Toughness.
Ceann wrote: I don't want your stupid salute, I am not trolling.
I claim to have an understanding of the rules that you do not and rather than attempt to see my point of view you post nonsensical statements about trolling.
He is wrong and I know he is wrong and I can demonstrate rules wise that he is wrong. HE is trying to find a loophole in the rules to allow him to use unusual grenades to apply them to rad grenades. Clearly you have nothing to add to the discussion.
If you can demonstrate he is wrong then do so.
Near as I can tell your arguments go against the rulebook.
col_impact has quoted verbatim from the rulebook what constitutes advance rules. You say he is wrong, Give me a rules quotes proving him wrong.
Is a unit type a model?
A unit type is an extension of the profile which is a basic rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unusual grenades tell you to see below.
Do you see a grenade without a profile? Assault grenades.
A grenade used as a melee weapon without a melee profile. Melta bombs, haywire grenades.
A grenade with its own special rules. Haywire, melta.
The grenades listed below are unusual grenades.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Section 8 of the army list entry states that wargear is owned by the unit, not by a specific model.
Units purchase grenades, models do not purchase grenades.
Units are not advanced rules, advanced rules are for specific models.
Ceann wrote: I don't want your stupid salute, I am not trolling.
I claim to have an understanding of the rules that you do not and rather than attempt to see my point of view you post nonsensical statements about trolling.
He is wrong and I know he is wrong and I can demonstrate rules wise that he is wrong. HE is trying to find a loophole in the rules to allow him to use unusual grenades to apply them to rad grenades. Clearly you have nothing to add to the discussion.
You do have a different understanding, everyone else''s arguments are correct as demonstrated by there arguments yours differs from theirs on that point we all can agree
I understand your viewpoint you made it clear on pages 1 and 2 that point was clearly incorrect then and still is. Your problem isn't that we don't understand your point of view its that we "all"! don't agree with it and you can't handle that and or fail to see the consensus of everyone else
He is right and you have failed to demonstrate time and again he is wrong while repetedly demonstrating that you are wrong. The only correct thing you have stated is that you "know he is wrong" unfortunately as all your post demonstrate your knowledge differs from everyone else's. And from what I have read more than a half dozen people have proven you wrong again and again since rad grenades are unusual grenades as proven repeatedly in the past 16 pages he does not need a loop hole.
You can tell me I have nothing to add because you don't agree with me all you want and may do so for the next 16 pages but that won't make you right it just shows your failur to understand others and the rules and the reason I call you trolling was you added comments in pages 1 and 2 and have not added anything additional since then. However no doubt you will continue to repeat the same statements incorrectly till everyone gets bored of responding to you that is trolling
Ceann you don't want to admit your wrong, you don't want anyone joining your "discussion" (another thing you need to look up the meaning of). 16 pages of you repeating the same flawed point, expecting a different result, a perfect example of the meaning of insanity.
Is a unit type a model?
A unit type is an extension of the profile which is a basic rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unusual grenades tell you to see below.
Do you see a grenade without a profile? Assault grenades.
A grenade used as a melee weapon without a melee profile. Melta bombs, haywire grenades.
A grenade with its own special rules. Haywire, melta.
The grenades listed below are unusual grenades.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Section 8 of the army list entry states that wargear is owned by the unit, not by a specific model.
Units purchase grenades, models do not purchase grenades.
Units are not advanced rules, advanced rules are for specific models.
Wargear are not advanced rules.
So you are claiming that Haywire grenades and Melta Bombs are Unusual Grenades despite the fact they have a melee profile?
Why are you referencing the Unusual Grenades rules for Assault grenades? What specific wording is present in Assault grenades that gives you permission to use the rules for Unusual Grenades that is missing from Rad Grenades?
Is a unit type a model?
A unit type is an extension of the profile which is a basic rule.
Unit Type is not a Characteristic, though. Unit Type rules do apply to a model. In fact many of the Unit Type rules that are exclusive to that Type state "model", not "unit".
The only information that we have on Unit Types before its own section is that it exists and provides more special rules.
Ceann wrote: Unusual grenades tell you to see below.
No, they do not. Nothing in Unusual Grenades tells you to see below. That is outside of the section of "Unusual Grenades". The "explained below" is talking about a grenade that can be used as a Melee Weapon, as noted by the first sentence of that paragraph.
Ceann wrote: Do you see a grenade without a profile? Assault grenades.
A grenade used as a melee weapon without a melee profile. Melta bombs, haywire grenades.
A grenade with its own special rules. Haywire, melta.
Meltabombs and Haywire Grenades are not Unusual Grenades. They have a profile. The key identifier of an Unusual Grenade is that they do not have a profile. Meltabombs and Haywires do have a profile. Assault Grenades do not have a profile while in Assault, though..
Ceann wrote: Section 8 of the army list entry states that wargear is owned by the unit, not by a specific model.
Units purchase grenades, models do not purchase grenades.
Units are not advanced rules, advanced rules are for specific models.
Wargear are not advanced rules.
Incorrect. Every legend for Army List Entries states the Wargear section as: "This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are armed with, many of which are described in more detail in the Appendix of this book. The cost for all the unit’s basic equipment is included in its points cost."
Assault with assault grenades does not have a melee profile, so you follow the specific rules stated for assaulting.
Haywire and meltabombs do not have a MELEE profile.
Look at their weapon type, look at the weaponry pages.
Chainsword type melee.
Unusual grenades rule allows you to perform a melee attack with haywire or melta bombs. Also in the case of these two you follow their special rules. They have the special rules haywire and melta.
Plasma grenades state they can be used in assault against vehicles or emplacements.
The specifications of unusual grenades permit the grenades LISTED below to be used in these fashions.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Do you see anywhere in your description on section 8 of an army list entry that states a specific model charistoph? I dont.
Same incorrect argument please see the previous 4 comments before you for clarification please no more trolling by repeating the same incorrect statement
Ceann wrote: Unusual grenades is list of criteria.
Assault with assault grenades does not have a melee profile, so you follow the specific rules stated for assaulting.
Haywire and meltabombs do not have a MELEE profile. Look at their weapon type, look at the weaponry pages. Chainsword type melee.
From the main rulebook: Range If the weapon’s range contains a ‘-’, it is (unless otherwise stated) a Melee weapon.
What is the range of a melta bomb? '-'. Does it state it is not a Melee weapon? No. Therefore per the rules it is a melee weapon. What is the range of a Haywire grenade in the assault phase? '-'. Does it state it is not a Melee weapon? No. Therefore per the rules it is a melee weapon.
Really, it's a melee weapon. So you get an extra attack when charging right? For having a melta bomb?
If you attack a cultist, you can declare a melta bomb as your melee weapon, correct?
No, it is not. It only states one criteria, and it is not in list form.
Ceann wrote:Assault with assault grenades does not have a melee profile, so you follow the specific rules stated for assaulting.
Haywire and meltabombs do not have a MELEE profile.
Look at their weapon type, look at the weaponry pages.
Chainsword type melee.
They do not have a profile which has the type Melee, but the rules attending to them do tell you to use them in Melee. This is a combination of their Assault rules and the paragraphs of Vehicles, Gun Emplacements and Monstrous Creatures, where it states in bold, "A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on its profile or any bonuses."
Ceann wrote:Unusual grenades rule allows you to perform a melee attack with haywire or melta bombs. Also in the case of these two you follow their special rules. They have the special rules haywire and melta.
No, they do not. Unusual Grenades are specifically about grenades that do not have a profile. "these grenades cannot be thrown or used as a Melee weapon."
Ceann wrote:Do you see anywhere in your description on section 8 of an army list entry that states a specific model charistoph? I dont.
That does list models specifically. It does not state that the unit carries the Wargear.
Ceann wrote:Really, it's a melee weapon. So you get an extra attack when charging right? For having a melta bomb?
If you attack a cultist, you can declare a melta bomb as your melee weapon, correct?
No, you follow the instructions provided, one of which has been quoted above.
Ceann wrote: Really, it's a melee weapon. So you get an extra attack when charging right? For having a melta bomb?
If the rules for grenades did not specifically state you do not get a bonus attack when attacking with a grenade in melee.
If you attack a cultist, you can declare a melta bomb as your melee weapon, correct?
No, because there are other rules in play besides the basic rules for attacking in melee.
Why does any of this matter?
We are not told in the codex to reference the grenades section of the BRB.
Basic vs advanced rules tell us that we follow all basic rules, for movement shooting assault and morale. That we follow the army list entry and the codex and that they have precedence.
What in the codex is telling us to reference the rules?
Weapons with the melee type can only be used in close combat.
Does it have the type melee?
No?
The melee type has nothing to do with defining what a melee weapon is.
Only the range matters. Melee weapons are defined by having a range of '-'.
Having the melee type on a weapon means it can only ever be used in close combat. It is not a necessity to have.
Without the melee type and only range '-', you would still be able to use those weapons in close combat.
So grenades like melta bombs do indeed have melee profiles, they just don't have the melee type.
You seem to have a trouble understanding that concept in general.
All weapons with the melee type are melee weapons, but not all melee weapons have the melee type.
No, it is not. It only states one criteria, and it is not in list form.
Ceann wrote:Assault with assault grenades does not have a melee profile, so you follow the specific rules stated for assaulting.
Haywire and meltabombs do not have a MELEE profile.
Look at their weapon type, look at the weaponry pages.
Chainsword type melee.
They do not have a profile which has the type Melee, but the rules attending to them do tell you to use them in Melee. This is a combination of their Assault rules and the paragraphs of Vehicles, Gun Emplacements and Monstrous Creatures, where it states in bold, "A model can use such a grenade as a Melee weapon, but can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on its profile or any bonuses."
Ceann wrote:Unusual grenades rule allows you to perform a melee attack with haywire or melta bombs. Also in the case of these two you follow their special rules. They have the special rules haywire and melta.
No, they do not. Unusual Grenades are specifically about grenades that do not have a profile. "these grenades cannot be thrown or used as a Melee weapon."
Ceann wrote:Do you see anywhere in your description on section 8 of an army list entry that states a specific model charistoph? I dont.
That does list models specifically. It does not state that the unit carries the Wargear.
Ceann wrote:Really, it's a melee weapon. So you get an extra attack when charging right? For having a melta bomb?
If you attack a cultist, you can declare a melta bomb as your melee weapon, correct?
No, you follow the instructions provided, one of which has been quoted above.
Do you know why col is not making these arguments? Because I disproved them all already.
That is why he is now trying to find some way to word soup advanced rules to grenades so he can claim all grenades are special rules.
There is no need to discuss the grenades section because we are not told by the army list entry or the codex IA to consult the BRB for any of those rules.
Until you can demonstrate that we are forced to look at that section there is no reason to discuss it.
Weapons with the melee type can only be used in close combat.
Does it have the type melee?
No?
Does this state that only Melee Weapons can be used in close combat? No. It is restricting Melee Type Weapons from being used in other situations.
Ceann wrote:Why does any of this matter?
We are not told in the codex to reference the grenades section of the BRB.
Basic vs advanced rules tell us that we follow all basic rules, for movement shooting assault and morale. That we follow the army list entry and the codex and that they have precedence.
What in the codex is telling us to reference the rules?
What in the codex tells us to ignore those rules? Codex rules only trump BRB rules when they conflict. We are always to be refering to the BRB for general rules and advanced rules except where the Codex comes in and says otherwise.
Rad Grenades are a point. They are a codex Wargear. Wargear carry Special Rules. Special Rules cannot stack unless they state otherwise.
The rest is correcting your consistent misconceptions you try to use to support your position.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: Do you know why col is not making these arguments?
You mean besides the fact I have him on Ignore and he usually makes crap arguments I would never make? No.
Ceann wrote: Because I disproved them all already.
No, you have not. You have taken sentences out of context and attempted to use them as directions in situations they were not meant to be used.
Ceann wrote:That is why he is now trying to find some way to word soup advanced rules to grenades so he can claim all grenades are special rules.
I honestly do not care what he is or is not trying to do. That is part of the reason why I put him on Ignore, so I wouldn't be tempted to care.
Ceann wrote:There is no need to discuss the grenades section because we are not told by the army list entry or the codex IA to consult the BRB for any of those rules.
Until you can demonstrate that we are forced to look at that section there is no reason to discuss it.
There is a need because you are interpreting them incorrectly and that type of interpretation is what is causing much of the errors in your assertions.
The BRB states ALL special rules are presented in the special rules section.
It does also state the list is not exhaustive which you have pointed out. What you failed to do was finish reading the rest of the words. The rest of the words tell you to find other special rules in CODEX and army list entry sheets.
Therfore ALL special rules contained in the BRB are included in the special rules section. Are grenades in the special rules section? No?
So unusual grenades are a basic rule for grenades not a special rule.
Do we see a special rule for rad grenades in the BRB section?
No.
Do we see a special rule for rad grenades in the codex?
No.
Therefore rad grenades do not have a special rule, rad grenades stack.
Ceann wrote: The BRB states ALL special rules are presented in the special rules section.
No it does not. It says it contains the more common special rules. Or are you claiming Chapter Tactics, Reanimation Protocols and Battle Focus are not special rules?
It does also state the list is not exhaustive which you have pointed out. What you failed to do was finish reading the rest of the words. The rest of the words tell you to find other special rules in CODEX and army list entry sheets.
And where can I find Rad Grenades? In a codex.
Therfore ALL special rules contained in the BRB are included in the special rules section. Are grenades in the special rules section? No?
Neither are Unit type, or weapons, which we know from previous quotes from the rulebook are advanced rules.
So unusual grenades are a basic rule for grenades not a special rule.
Are you not the one who claimed that basic rules were found in the "Core rules section" and Advanced rules were found in the Appendix? Where are grenades found, Core Rules or Appendix?
Do we see a special rule for rad grenades in the BRB section?
No.
Obviously not, it is a codex specific item.
Do we see a special rule for rad grenades in the codex?
No.
When we take all the applicable rules together, yes we do.
Therefore rad grenades do not have a special rule, rad grenades stack.
And this is your conclusion based on ignoring the written rule.
Ceann wrote: The BRB states ALL special rules are presented in the special rules section.
No it does not. It says it contains the more common special rules. Or are you claiming Chapter Tactics, Reanimation Protocols and Battle Focus are not special rules?
It does also state the list is not exhaustive which you have pointed out. What you failed to do was finish reading the rest of the words. The rest of the words tell you to find other special rules in CODEX and army list entry sheets.
And where can I find Rad Grenades? In a codex.
Therfore ALL special rules contained in the BRB are included in the special rules section. Are grenades in the special rules section? No?
Neither are Unit type, or weapons, which we know from previous quotes from the rulebook are advanced rules.
So unusual grenades are a basic rule for grenades not a special rule.
Are you not the one who claimed that basic rules were found in the "Core rules section" and Advanced rules were found in the Appendix? Where are grenades found, Core Rules or Appendix?
Do we see a special rule for rad grenades in the BRB section?
No.
Obviously not, it is a codex specific item.
Do we see a special rule for rad grenades in the codex?
No.
When we take all the applicable rules together, yes we do.
Therefore rad grenades do not have a special rule, rad grenades stack.
And this is your conclusion based on ignoring the written rule.
Sorry wrong.
Advanced rules apply to specific MODELS.
Is unit type a model?
No. Models are models.
Are grenades a model?
No. Models are models.
The other special rules you notated are located in their codex which is exactly what I already said. How can I claim the opposite of what I just said?
Garbage argument. Read my statement again.
Are rad grenades located in the special rules section of their army list entry? No.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You must be confusing what I have said with what col has said and that is a problem.
I consider NOTHING a special rule unless I am told it is a special rule.
Where are you told rad grenades are a special rule?
They are not in the special rules section of the brb.
They are not listed as having a special rule on their army list entry or codex.
Why are rad grenades a special rule?
For what reason?
If you are attempting to consult the BRB for any other reason, UNLESS EXPLICITY INSTRUCTED ON THE DATASHEET, then you are not allowed to do so.
This is the greatest sentence ever posted in YMDC.
So if I am playing Tyranids I can just ignore my datasheet, go to the BRB and start equipping Las cannons on my gaunts?
No.
The army list entry tells you what rules to refer too in reference to that particular codex. You are not free to associate any rules you wish to an army list entry.
gungo wrote:Add ne to the list saying ceann is wrong rad grenades are fairly clearly a weapon as defined under special rules regardless of this one mans tirade.
No, they are not a Weapon, but they are Wargear, and Wargear do carry special rules.
Ceann wrote:
Advanced rules apply to specific MODELS.
Is unit type a model?
No. Models are models.
And the rules often are carried by the models of that unit type. Or are you saying that Bikes are only Relentless as a unit and not as individual models?
Ceann wrote:Are grenades a model?
No. Models are models.
No, but they are carried by models.
Ceann wrote:The other special rules you notated are located in their codex which is exactly what I already said. How can I claim the opposite of what I just said?
Garbage argument. Read my statement again.
Are rad grenades located in the special rules section of their army list entry? No.
Location means nothing. They fit the definition of special rules. Not all special rules will be found in a special rules section. In fact most Wargear Special Rules can only be found in the Armoury that they are provided in. Necron's Gauss for example.
Ceann wrote:I consider NOTHING a special rule unless I am told it is a special rule.
But you have been told it is a special rule. The definition has been provided. Location is never stated as part of that definition. Why do you cling to this as being the required definition?
Ceann wrote:Where are you told rad grenades are a special rule?
They are not in the special rules section of the brb.
They are not listed as having a special rule on their army list entry or codex.
Who said Rad Grenades are a special rule? They carry a special rule. They change how the interaction between models is performed. This has been stated ad nauseum. Much like Col_Ignored used to do with IC & Special Rules you are conflating the possession of something as being that something.
Ceann wrote:Why are rad grenades a special rule?
For what reason?
They carry a Special Rule because it is not a basic rule for a model's Toughness to be modified when in base contact with an enemy model. You have yet to demonstrate that this is a standard occurrence in the game system.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: And none of this has anything to do with actual topic of the thread.
Let's try this from another direction.
A criteria to be a special rule is that you are bending or breaking a basic rule, movement , shooting, assault or morale.
The melta rule breaks the rules because in the core rules you cannot roll 2 dice to pen.
Relentless breaks the rules because heavy weapons are supposed to snap shoot if you moved.
These are examples of basic rules being broken.
Please explain to me, the basic rule, being broken by rad grenades that would prompt them to be thought of as a special rule.
Right above. It's only been stated at least every other page here.
Just as you are not allowed to roll 2 dice for Armour Penetration, you cannot lower your opponent's Toughness by being in Base Contact. If that is a standard rule, please provide for it. And do use the standards you noted above for doing so.
Page 40, Range. The first sentence.
"If the weapons's range contains a '-', it is (unless otherwise stated) a Melee weapon."
Page 181, Melta bombs.
A Melta bomb has the following profile in assaults:
Range: '-', Strength: 8, AP: 1, Type: Armourbane, Unwieldy.
You went on, previously saying a melta bomb is a an unusual grenade as it doesn't have a melee profile.
I don't understand how that sentence on page 40 does not apply here according to you.
Never mind how unwieldy would work if that is not the profile of a melee weapon.
The melee type is not required for a weapon to be a melee weapon, but has additional restrictions in that such a weapon can only be used in close combat.
It just so happens that 99% of melee weapons in the game also have the melee type.
I'm curious, because, unusual grenades cannot be used as a melee weapon.
Therefor, if melta bombs are melee weapons when used in close combat, they can't possibly be unusual grenades right?
Page 8 of the brb permits wargear to modify stats.
Does is not?
There are power weapons located in the BRB, they modify your str value.
Power weapons are not located in the special rules section.
The special rules section has ALL special rules in the BRB presented in a single section. Please we are talking strictly BRB not to confuse any other documents. The exhaustive part is redundant because we are only in the BRB.
If all special rules located in the BRB are presented in the special rules section, and a power weapon that meets your criteria of modifying a stat while in base contact is not located in that section, then I feel this presents a scenario that I need for you to explain to me.
Ceann wrote: Page 8 of the brb permits wargear to modify stats.
Does is not?
No. It just notes that it happens, permission is not being granted. In addition, this is not part of those parts that you noted above.
Where in the Assault Phase rules am I granted permission to lower a model's Toughness while in Base Contact?
Ceann wrote: There are power weapons located in the BRB, they modify your str value.
Power weapons are not located in the special rules section.
This is not an accepted argument. You are trying to make an argument based on us accepting your standards. We have not accepted that all special rules are defined by location, so this argument means nothing to us. Besides, Weapons is between Shooting and Assault.
Ceann wrote: The special rules section has ALL special rules in the BRB presented in a single section. Please not we are talking strictly BRB not to confuse any other documents.
No, it does not. That sentence is taken out of context, which has been explained before. Some special rules are not tied to anything specific, but can be attached to numerous things. It is also stated that this is not an exhaustive list.
Ceann wrote: If all special rules located in the BRB are presented in the special rules section, and a power weapon that meets your criteria of modifying a stat while in base contact is not located in that sextion, then I feel this presents a scenario that I need for you to explain to me.
They are not all located in the BRB special rules section, though. This is a standard that you alone are applying and no one has accepted the context in which you presented the case. Hard To Hit is one such an example. Thrust is another. Stomp would be a third. These are all Unit Type special rules which cannot be found in the special rules section.
Roknar wrote: I'm curious what your take on the following is.
Page 40, Range. The first sentence.
"If the weapons's range contains a '-', it is (unless otherwise stated) a Melee weapon."
Page 181, Melta bombs.
A Melta bomb has the following profile in assaults:
Range: '-', Strength: 8, AP: 1, Type: Armourbane, Unwieldy.
You went on, previously saying a melta bomb is a an unusual grenade as it doesn't have a melee profile.
I don't understand how that sentence on page 40 does not apply here according to you.
Never mind how unwieldy would work if that is not the profile of a melee weapon.
The melee type is not required for a weapon to be a melee weapon, but has additional restrictions in that such a weapon can only be used in close combat.
It just so happens that 99% of melee weapons in the game also have the melee type.
I'm curious, because, unusual grenades cannot be used as a melee weapon.
Therefor, if melta bombs are melee weapons when used in close combat, they can't possibly be unusual grenades right?
I do t feel like discussing the grenades section was the right approach. The flaw here is that I feel many people have different ideas about what basic and special rules are. I do not ascribe to this idea that I can take the explanation of what a special rule is and run backwards and brand things as special rules as I see fit.
I only consider something a special rule exactly when I am told it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stomp is a basic rule for that unit, it is not breaking any rules it is following the rules for that unit type. Units are listed in the core rules and unit types are stated at the beginning of that section to be an extension of their profile, making them basic rules.
As for the special rules, go read the section, I am not making it up. It says that ALL special rules are presented there ALL. It then goes on to say the list is not exhaustive and the others can be found in codexs and army list entries. How you can not deduce that all special rules in the brb are in that section and all others are in codexs or data sheets is beyond me.
You seem to have this strange impression of special rules that you are given permission to decide what is and what is not a special rule entirely at your own discretion that is fundamentally flawed.
The reason the brb has a special rules section is so that you know own what they are.
The reason the unit types have special rules sections is so that you know what they are.
The reason army list entry's have special rules sections is so that you know what they are.
Tell me the rules page giving players the permission to make this decision on their own?
I gave you the RAW and an example on why the grenades presented in the BRB cannot possibly be unusual grenades.
I was trying to understand why you say that they:
1. do not have melee profiles,
2. are not melee weapons.
You completely switched the topic.
One of your initial arguments was that the phrase " as explained below" pertains to unusual grenades, due the the manner they are used in.
That is as a melee weapon.
That makes no sense either way.
If it does refer to the unusual grenades, then it makes no sense to then immediately say that unusual grenades cannot be used as a melee weapon when they just stated that they have to be used as a melee weapon.
On the other hand if all the grenades shown are unusual grenades as you also claimed, then the RAW I posted makes no sense. Either one would have to be wrong.
Either they have melee profiles and are thus not unusual grenades, or they aren't melee weapos, in which case, I have no idea what you think it says on page 40, because then that can't be true.
My main point being: The unusual grenades box stands on it's own and the preceding paragraph does not refer to it. That affects much of what you base your claims on.
Ceann wrote: The splash page, page 7, for Core Rules states...
This SECTION contain ALL the BASIC rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40k battles.
ALL the BASIC rules
ALL BASIC RULES
Whats in the core rules section?
Everything that isn't in the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and ability's.
The splash page, page 155 for Appendix
This section contains all of the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and ability's that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
section contains ALL of the ADVANCED RULES
ALL ADVANCED RULES
Are any of the things you listed in the Appendix?
No?
Can we move on from word soup now?
Still several pages for me to wade through (this is from page 14), and this is all probably a horrible digression, but I do have to point out where you're wrong here.
Page 155 says "This section contains A COLLECTION O"F advanced rules, weapon ry and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles. It does not say "all" of the advanced rules. You misrepresent what the rulebook is saying. You've misrepresented things in this thread before (such as claiming something can't be an unusual grenade because it can't be used in melee, which is a contradiction to what is said in the unusual grenade section)
Also, the quote for page 7, "CORE RULES" - we can go buy the quote that it contains all the basic rules that you will need. This section, however, ends with page 59. Page 60 has a picture of a Space Marine and "In an Hour of Darknss a Blind Man is the Best Guide"., and page 61 starts a new section - UNIT TYPES. That means that everything starting with Unit Types are advanced rules if you take the statement about the Core Rules section containing all of the basic rules to be correct. So, technically, at this point you are wrong about things having to be in the appendix or a codex to be an advanced rule.
Ceann wrote: I do t feel like discussing the grenades section was the right approach. The flaw here is that I feel many people have different ideas about what basic and special rules are. I do not ascribe to this idea that I can take the explanation of what a special rule is and run backwards and brand things as special rules as I see fit.
Why not? Why does a definition towards the end of the book not apply to everything else previous to it?
Ceann wrote: I only consider something a special rule exactly when I am told it is.
And you have been told, and you have ignored it. You are only considering something a special rule when you find it in a special section called special rule. That is a different case all together.
Ceann wrote: Stomp is a basic rule for that unit, it is not breaking any rules it is following the rules for that unit type. Units are listed in the core rules and unit types are stated at the beginning of that section to be an extension of their profile, making them basic rules.
Special Rules do not care if they are the basic rules for the unit. They care if they are not the basic rules for the game. How many units can Stomp? If the answer is, "only those that have it", it's a special rule. If the answer is, "everyone except those said without it", then it is a basic rule.
So, who has Stomp, everyone or just those who have it?
Ceann wrote: As for the special rules, go read the section, I am not making it up. It says that ALL special rules are presented there ALL. It then goes on to say the list is not exhaustive and the others can be found in codexs and army list entries. How you can not deduce that all special rules in the brb are in that section and all others are in codexs or data sheets is beyond me.
Already explained ad nauseum. We are going by the definition provided by the book, not by a location.
Ceann wrote: You seem to have this strange impression of special rules that you are given permission to decide what is and what is not a special rule entirely at your own discretion that is fundamentally flawed.
Nope. Just going by the definition provided by the rulebook in the very section you keep touting. At no point is it ever stated that they are only listed in the Special Rules section, is it?
Ceann wrote: The reason the brb has a special rules section is so that you know own what they are.
The reason the unit types have special rules sections is so that you know what they are.
Partly. And another reason is as the compendium puts it, they are, "presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule." These are the Universal Special Rules not tied down to any one thing like Thrust is. Many Weapons carry Melta and Blind. Many units and unit types carry Relentless and Fear.
Ceann wrote: The reason army list entry's have special rules sections is so that you know what they are.
Tell me the rules page giving players the permission to make this decision on their own?
None of us are doing it on our own. We have given where to find it. You have refused to accept it for what it is. By refusing to accept that standard and by using another standard you are going from RAW to RAI.
If you go to the index and look for advanced rules it takes you to page 13. Which is basic vs advanced.
Basic vs advanced states advanced rules apply to specific models.
The first section of unit types states that unit type is an extension of the profile, which is in basic rules. Being an extension makes all unit types and rules associated with those types as the basic rules for those units.
Are units, models?
No, models go IN units. So a unit type cannot be a model. A unit type tells you what rules apply to that model and the unit types tell you what special rules those units have. If unit types are extensions then only advanced rules can be special rules.
If unit types are basic rules then they cannot be special rules.
Or are we saying specific models are now units entirely on their own?
The splash page for the appendix states it contains advanced rules. Are unit types located in advanced rules? No. However the special rules located on unit types are, so special rules must be advanced rules.
If you go to the index and look for advanced rules it takes you to page 13. Which is basic vs advanced.
Basic vs advanced states advanced rules apply to specific models.
The first section of unit types states that unit type is an extension of the profile, which is in basic rules. Being an extension makes all unit types and rules associated with those types as the basic rules for those units.
Are units, models?
No, models go IN units. So a unit type cannot be a model. A unit type tells you what rules apply to that model and the unit types tell you what special rules those units have.
Or are we saying specific models are now units entirely on their own?
The splash page for the appendix states it contains advanced rules. Are unit types located in advanced rules? No. However the special rules located on unit types are, so special rules must be advanced rules.
Units are built from models. Models carry the Wargear. The Wargear says to affect a unit. Are we not to follow the instructions of the rules?
Ceann wrote: I do t feel like discussing the grenades section was the right approach. The flaw here is that I feel many people have different ideas about what basic and special rules are. I do not ascribe to this idea that I can take the explanation of what a special rule is and run backwards and brand things as special rules as I see fit.
Why not? Why does a definition towards the end of the book not apply to everything else previous to it?
Ceann wrote: I only consider something a special rule exactly when I am told it is.
And you have been told, and you have ignored it. You are only considering something a special rule when you find it in a special section called special rule. That is a different case all together.
Ceann wrote: Stomp is a basic rule for that unit, it is not breaking any rules it is following the rules for that unit type. Units are listed in the core rules and unit types are stated at the beginning of that section to be an extension of their profile, making them basic rules.
Special Rules do not care if they are the basic rules for the unit. They care if they are not the basic rules for the game. How many units can Stomp? If the answer is, "only those that have it", it's a special rule. If the answer is, "everyone except those said without it", then it is a basic rule.
So, who has Stomp, everyone or just those who have it?
Ceann wrote: As for the special rules, go read the section, I am not making it up. It says that ALL special rules are presented there ALL. It then goes on to say the list is not exhaustive and the others can be found in codexs and army list entries. How you can not deduce that all special rules in the brb are in that section and all others are in codexs or data sheets is beyond me.
Already explained ad nauseum. We are going by the definition provided by the book, not by a location.
Ceann wrote: You seem to have this strange impression of special rules that you are given permission to decide what is and what is not a special rule entirely at your own discretion that is fundamentally flawed.
Nope. Just going by the definition provided by the rulebook in the very section you keep touting. At no point is it ever stated that they are only listed in the Special Rules section, is it?
Ceann wrote: The reason the brb has a special rules section is so that you know own what they are.
The reason the unit types have special rules sections is so that you know what they are.
Partly. And another reason is as the compendium puts it, they are, "presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule." These are the Universal Special Rules not tied down to any one thing like Thrust is. Many Weapons carry Melta and Blind. Many units and unit types carry Relentless and Fear.
Ceann wrote: The reason army list entry's have special rules sections is so that you know what they are.
Tell me the rules page giving players the permission to make this decision on their own?
None of us are doing it on our own. We have given where to find it. You have refused to accept it for what it is. By refusing to accept that standard and by using another standard you are going from RAW to RAI.
So. The description, breaks or bends a rule, gives you permission to decide on your own, what is an is not a special rule. Is that what you are saying?
If you go to the index and look for advanced rules it takes you to page 13. Which is basic vs advanced.
Basic vs advanced states advanced rules apply to specific models.
The first section of unit types states that unit type is an extension of the profile, which is in basic rules. Being an extension makes all unit types and rules associated with those types as the basic rules for those units.
Are units, models?
No, models go IN units. So a unit type cannot be a model. A unit type tells you what rules apply to that model and the unit types tell you what special rules those units have.
Or are we saying specific models are now units entirely on their own?
The splash page for the appendix states it contains advanced rules. Are unit types located in advanced rules? No. However the special rules located on unit types are, so special rules must be advanced rules.
Units are built from models. Models carry the Wargear. The Wargear says to affect a unit. Are we not to follow the instructions of the rules?
Dude.
Advanced rules apply to a SPECIFIC model.
If I take a death watch kill team, which includes one guy on a bike, one guy with terminator armor and the rest is vets we now have advanced rules. The SPECIFIC model with those items apply only to that model, THESE are situations that count as advanced rules.
The rules for that model DO not apply to the unit. The bike rider gains the special rule splitfire, because he has a bike. Do you understand what a special rule is now? What an advanced rule is? They apply to specific models, not units.
If I take an entire unit of bikes they ALL have splitfire but it is not an advanced rule because it is not being applied to a specific model.
Advanced rules are not unit types.
Advanced rules are when a special rule is applied to a MODEL.
Otherwise they apply to a UNIT.
If you go to the index and look for advanced rules it takes you to page 13. Which is basic vs advanced.
Basic vs advanced states advanced rules apply to specific models.
The first section of unit types states that unit type is an extension of the profile, which is in basic rules. Being an extension makes all unit types and rules associated with those types as the basic rules for those units.
Are units, models?
No, models go IN units. So a unit type cannot be a model. A unit type tells you what rules apply to that model and the unit types tell you what special rules those units have. If unit types are extensions then only advanced rules can be special rules.
If unit types are basic rules then they cannot be special rules.
Or are we saying specific models are now units entirely on their own?
The splash page for the appendix states it contains advanced rules. Are unit types located in advanced rules? No. However the special rules located on unit types are, so special rules must be advanced rules.
You are trying to deliberately obfuscate things here.
The index referring to page 13 refers you to the basic vs advanced rules where it defines what a basic rule is, what an advanced rule is anddescribes what the relationship between them is. That does not mean it is an advanced rule on page 13. In fact, the rule for applying advanced rules over basic rules is itself a basic rule by being in the corre rule section.
Now, if I wanted to be as condescending as you, I could tell you to finish your own research. Consult the table of contents on page 2. See how the section headers are set in a larger font, and there's a space between one section and the next to tell you where the next section starts? This indicates what section is what. Backing this up is them taking two pages with artwork and a quote on them along with the title of the section in a large point type font. Now, on the table of contents, you can see the last thing listed in the "Core Rules" section is "MORALE" on page 56. That means it's the last thing in that section. "UNIT TYPES" is separated by spacing and in a larger, bolded font the same as for Core Rules, indicating this is a different section. Now, given that it has been established that it is a separate section and that page 7 for Core rules states "This section contains ALL the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles." You even quoted this rule yourself, so I assume you agree that it's a true statement. Since the statement is only for the Core Rules section, it means that any sections after the Core Rules section are not basic rules since they are not in the Core Rules section. So, if you are referencing rules outside of the core rules section, those are not core rules. I would think such a simple thing as being able to tell when a section in the rule book begins and ends would not be beyond your reading comprehension.
Wow, I think we have Charisoph, col impact and I all agreeing on something. It's the Apocalypse!
Per basic vs advanced the basic rules for movement, assault shooting morale apply to all models.
The unit types section is telling the movement, shooting, assault and morale, rules for unit types. It states unit type is an extension of the unit profile, which is located in the core rules section.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How am I obfuscating anything?
I WENT to the appendix to try to find advanced rules and it tells me page 13 and the only thing page 13 states is that advanced rules are on army list entries and, that they apply to specific models and then provide some convoluted explanation.
Tell.me how YOU are concluding what is and isn't an advanced rupe.
Just as a note guys, Rad grenades do not specifically state that they do not stack, and in fact the way the rules are written (as per RAW as it where) the grenades do infact stack, but only when multiple units with a model possessing them charge/are charged However, if multiple models possessing Rad Grenades are within the same unit and it charges/is charged then only one instance of Rad Grenading occurs.
And as a final note I should also mention that I have always run them as stacking, it is the generally accepted interpretation and finally of all watching a squad of Guardsmen beat a unit of T2/1 Marines to death is too funny not to watch.
Per basic vs advanced the basic rules for movement, assault shooting morale apply to all models.
The unit types section is telling the movement, shooting, assault and morale, rules for unit types. It states unit type is an extension of the unit profile, which is located in the core rules section.
Funny, because the very first sentence of Unit Types disagrees with you.
"So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game."
This is found immediately after the core rules section.
Per basic vs advanced the basic rules for movement, assault shooting morale apply to all models.
The unit types section is telling the movement, shooting, assault and morale, rules for unit types. It states unit type is an extension of the unit profile, which is located in the core rules section.
Wrong.
Do you agree that page 7, on the title page for the Core Rules section, states "This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles."
What pages have the core rules? According to the table of contents, the section goes until we hit the Unit Types section on page 61. This is also indicated by the section header on pages 60 and 61. Do you agree that "Unit Types" is a separate section? Remember, this is also how Battlefield Terrain, Preparing for Battle, and the Appendix are separated, so if you don't agree that Unit Types is is different section then you also deny that any of the other sections are different sections and therefore the Appendix also contains core rules.
Everything else you typed is worthless jibber jabber since you are ignoring that the core rules section tells you which section applies. You are ignoring what is on page 13 that you have not quoted - "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless otherwise stated" "Adanced rules apply to specific types of models,whether...(snip)...or because they are not normal infantry models. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry." The Army List Entry includes unit type. Each unit type does not apply to all models - not all models are infantry, or jetbikes, or artillery. Therefore, they are advanced rules. This is in addtion to being outside the section that we are told contains ALL the basic rules we need. Having A unit type may be a basic rule. WHAT unit type you have is an advanced rule. That should be obvious, since it is not in the core rules section, which is what we are told contains all the basic rules we need. Your saying that it's there by extension would be like saying that since Other Important Information on page 9 mentions that models might have shooting or Melee weapons, or special rules, that shooting weapons, and special rules are all basic rules, or that that since advanced rules are mentioned on page 13, by extension all advanced rules are basic rules, . Your logic has failed there. Go back, look at the quote on page 7, look at the table of contents to see what the section encompasses, then don't bother trying to drag other stuff into that section that's not there.
Per basic vs advanced the basic rules for movement, assault shooting morale apply to all models.
The unit types section is telling the movement, shooting, assault and morale, rules for unit types. It states unit type is an extension of the unit profile, which is located in the core rules section.
Funny, because the very first sentence of Unit Types disagrees with you.
"So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game."
This is found immediately after the core rules section.
Good find, thank you! More proof that the core rules section has ended.
Sigh.... or because they are not infantry models. Are you even trying to be intelligent here?
Some until types have fleet, or hammer of wrath, or relentless, or other rules included in their type that are not basic rules. Not because the unit types have NO basic rules.
So if a space marine moves 6 it is a basic rule but if a beast moves 6 it isn't a movement?
Movement is always a basic rule.
Assaults are always a basic rule.
Shooting is always a basic rule.
Morale is always a basic rule.
Being a unit is always a basic rule.
These thing all apply to a beast and all apply to a space marine. The advanced rule notation is to note that some unit types come with baked in special rules without having gotten them from wargear, or a character such as a sergeant purchases an item so he has a rule no one else in the unit has, or some IC with FNP or IWND. You are narrowly reading a couple lines instead of tying things together, the rules are cohesive. It disregards infantry because they have no default special rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If I have a librarian in terminator armor that joins a group of space marines in PA this is an example of an advanced rule. We have a specific model that advanced rules are being applied too. All of the models still retain all of the basic rules. The librarian will have relentless, the rest of the unit will not, this is an advanced rule scenario.
While I'm enjoying the back and forth about how to read the BRB, I'm still waiting for an answer btw.
I'd really appreciate one. And as just a reminder, I don't care about what a special rule is or isn't. That's beside the point as far as my post is concerned.
I don't like repeating myself but since it's been a while and this is a hot thread I'll re-quote myself here for your convencience.
I gave you the RAW and an example on why the grenades presented in the BRB cannot possibly be unusual grenades.
I was trying to understand why you say that they:
1. do not have melee profiles,
2. are not melee weapons.
You completely switched the topic.
One of your initial arguments was that the phrase " as explained below" pertains to unusual grenades, due the the manner they are used in.
That is as a melee weapon.
That makes no sense either way.
If it does refer to the unusual grenades, then it makes no sense to then immediately say that unusual grenades cannot be used as a melee weapon when they just stated that they have to be used as a melee weapon.
On the other hand if all the grenades shown are unusual grenades as you also claimed, then the RAW I posted makes no sense. Either one would have to be wrong.
Either they have melee profiles and are thus not unusual grenades, or they aren't melee weapos, in which case, I have no idea what you think it says on page 40, because then that can't be true.
My main point being: The unusual grenades box stands on it's own and the preceding paragraph does not refer to it. That affects much of what you base your claims on.
Ceann wrote: Sigh.... or because they are not infantry models. Are you even trying to be intelligent here?
Intelligent enough to know that when they state that all the basic rules you need are in one specific section, you don't go looking in other sections for basic rules You seem to fail the basic comprehension, especially since you apparently didn't comprehend I had a couple of questions for you that you should answer.
Everyone has lots of questions because none of you understand this correctly. I am trying to explain it to you. But you are more concerned about waiting to prove me wrong than trying to understand what I am telling you.
I would hope you would try too.
If you have questions then ask them.
Let me try and simplify this.
Let's say the basic rules are hats shoes shirts and pants.
The basic rules tell you how to wear these so you do not end up with shoes in your hands.
Unit types is telling you about different kinds of hats shoes shirts and pants. You are not being told new basic rules you have already been told all of them. You are being told how these units operate using the the rules.
Just like the weapons used in the core rules are to explain weapon HOW to use weapons, not what all weapons do.
Weapons have types, units have types.
So the units type has the basic rules for those types of units.
If you just look at the unit type section by itself, you will have no idea what those terms mean. The rules are in core rules.
Just like if you looked at the weaponry section without having looked at core rules it would mean nothing to you.
You are being provided values that go into the basic templates provided in core rules.
Ceann wrote: Sorry Roknar I know you asked. I am trying to establish how the rules are read before discussing them. I won't forget about you though.
The best example is assault grenades that do not have a profile when assaulting iirc.
Rules are read by trolls by placing the small blast template on the rulebook and rolling 3 d6 scater. The rule the blast template lands on is the only one that matters and anyone else who reads the book is clearly wrong
When you move to the verbal assault phase tell your opponent they fail basic comprehension because they fail to understand that you don't read the whole rulebook.
Ceann wrote:So. The description, breaks or bends a rule, gives you permission to decide on your own, what is an is not a special rule. Is that what you are saying?
No. That definition is telling me what is and is not a special rule. If I am following that definition, is that deciding on my own? If I follow the directions provided by a Wargear, am I deciding what that Wargear does on my own?
At this point, you are projecting. You are deciding what is and is not a basic and special rule outside of the definitions provided.
Ceann wrote:Advanced rules apply to a SPECIFIC model.
If I take a death watch kill team, which includes one guy on a bike, one guy with terminator armor and the rest is vets we now have advanced rules. The SPECIFIC model with those items apply only to that model, THESE are situations that count as advanced rules.
The rules for that model DO not apply to the unit. The bike rider gains the special rule splitfire, because he has a bike. Do you understand what a special rule is now? What an advanced rule is? They apply to specific models, not units.
If I take an entire unit of bikes they ALL have splitfire but it is not an advanced rule because it is not being applied to a specific model.
Advanced rules are not unit types.
Advanced rules are when a special rule is applied to a MODEL.
Otherwise they apply to a UNIT.
And all those rules of unit types still apply to the models that have that unit type. Read up on Bikes, how often is the term "unit" used and how often is the term "model" used?
It doesn't matter if the unit is one model or 30, Bikes always have Relentless and can Turbo-Boost. If a Bike Captain joins a unit of Tactical Marines, it can still move 12". If the unit goes through Difficult Terrain, the Bike Captain can still go 12". If the Bike Captain goes through the Difficult Terrain, he rolls for Dangerous Terrain, even though the rest of the Infantry unit will not.
The basic rules are for Infantry and Infantry alone. If a unit is of another Type, it becomes an Advanced Rule. This is referenced throughout the rulebook, and you've even quoted some of the paragraphs which state as such, so I hope you read them, too.
master of ordinance wrote:Just as a note guys, Rad grenades do not specifically state that they do not stack, and in fact the way the rules are written (as per RAW as it where) the grenades do infact stack, but only when multiple units with a model possessing them charge/are charged However, if multiple models possessing Rad Grenades are within the same unit and it charges/is charged then only one instance of Rad Grenading occurs.
And as a final note I should also mention that I have always run them as stacking, it is the generally accepted interpretation and finally of all watching a squad of Guardsmen beat a unit of T2/1 Marines to death is too funny not to watch.
The reason all this discussion about special rules is that special rules do not stack unless they specifically state they do. So, the default is that they do not stack and they need to say they stack in order to stack.
Ceann wrote:Everyone has lots of questions because none of you understand this correctly. I am trying to explain it to you. But you are more concerned about waiting to prove me wrong than trying to understand what I am telling you.
No, we understand what you are saying. But, we are also saying that you are wrong and ignoring key definitions and points in the rulebook. We have quoted from the rulebook and you have provided nothing that gainsays those definitions.
Ceann wrote:So the units type has the basic rules for those types of units.
But those are not the basic rules for the GAME. That is the key difference that seems to go over your head on this. It is basic rules for a bike model to have Relentless. Does this make Relentless a basic rule? That is absurd, but that is what you seem to saying the equivalent of in regards to Rad Grenades and Unit Types.
Ceann wrote:If you just look at the unit type section by itself, you will have no idea what those terms mean. The rules are in core rules.
Some are, some aren't. Some change those base rules, such as Cavalry, Bikes, Jump, and Beasts moving 12". Some add additional special rules that are unique to unit types, such as Thrust and Hard To Hit. Some also allow Characters to reallocate Wounds away from them or to move beyond their Charging Range or without a Pile In (see Challenges).
These are not basic rules. These are rules which bend or break the basic game's rules presented in the sections before them. This makes them special rules and this also makes Advanced Rules.
If you feel otherwise, please demonstrate how every single one of those Unit Type exceptions are explained between the pages which The Turn and Unit Types.
Ceann wrote:Just like if you looked at the weaponry section without having looked at core rules it would mean nothing to you.
You are being provided values that go into the basic templates provided in core rules.
Actually, as I pointed out, the Weaponry Section is technically IN the basic rules section...
And just because something fits within a template of the core rules does not mean it isn't an advanced/special rule. This is a construct that you have created which has no support in the rulebook. Beasts and Cavalry can move 12" but they still have to follow the rules of Unit Coherency, distance from Enemy models, and Terrain, but moving more than 12" is breaking the limit on 6" movement distance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: Do you remember when you read the codex and did exactly what it said? That is what you are supposed to so.
But everyone wants to refer back to the BRB for various reasons ad infinitum.
Because there are still interactions that you need to deal with that are provided by the BRB. How do you know when you've charged? What is considered base contact? How do you know if it is a special rule? What are the restrictions on special rules?
If the codex does not change anything about a rule, we are using the rulebook.
Otherwise, can you play a 40K game without ever referring to anything in the rulebook? You have to run the game 100% from the codex and supplement. Can you?
Infantry is a unit type, it is in the unit section. Infantry unit types were used as the examples to explain the rules in the core rules section.
These are examples buddy.
What does it say, it says those are the rules that pertain to infantry and it also says "so far" that means they are not yet done telling you. It also states that unit types are an EXTENSION of the characteristics profile. That means an extension of that means they are basic rules. The core rules tell you HOW to use the values you get from types. Because infantry are the most common and least complicated unit type they used those while explaining the core rules.
You are still wrong about the bikes.
If I add an IC with a bike to the unit that unit may have those rules, if the IC leaves those rules leave with him, that is advanced.
Relentless is located under special rules in the unit type because it is a special rule, notice how the BRB never calls it a basic rule. All rules in a unit type that pertain to basic rules, are basic rules. Swooping and zooming are different kinds of movement rules, they are still movement rules nonetheless, making them basic moves.
If a rule included in the unit types is specific to a phase, it is a basic rule for that unit type for that phase as long as it is the movement, shooting , assault phase, or is a rule for morale.
Calvary and beasts do not modify any base rule, the movement rules for calvary and beasts are the basic movement rules for them, not an advanced rule.
Advanced rules apply to models, if I have 30 bikes what specific model has splitfire? None, they all do. That is a special rule. If there is a unit of 30 with one bike that is an advanced rule a specific model has the rule, not the unit.
If you have a bike unit and an IC joins he gains spitfire, if he leaves he loses it.
Two different scenarios, one with the advanced rules attached to a specific model and one with the special rules attached to the unit.
That is the only real difference between advanced rules and special rules, one is being applied via unit one is being applied via a model.
The difference. Is the SOURCE of how that rule is gained.
But you don't understand any of this, it's too hard for you.
You can't reverse analyze what you are saying and see how it doesn't work backwards.
Basic vs advanced tells us that the basic rules for movement apply to all models, that does not mean all modes move 6. It means all models move in inches, tells you how they interact with terrain all of the information that is not relevant to the values.
Is the infantry unit type in the core rules? No, its listed in the unit type with everyone else.
Infantry is a unit type, it is in the unit section. Infantry unit types were used as the examples to explain the rules in the core rules section.
These are examples buddy.
Where does it call them examples in any of these cases? Quote it, please.
Ceann wrote: What does it say, it says those are the rules that pertain to infantry and it also says "so far" that means they are not yet done telling you. It also states that unit types are an EXTENSION of the characteristics profile. That means an extension of that means they are basic rules. The core rules tell you HOW to use the values you get from types. Because infantry are the most common and least complicated unit type they used those while explaining the core rules.
Just because they are listed in the Characteristics does not make them basic rules. Calling them something else is basic, but all else is Advanced. By extension of this concept, nothing is a special rule or advanced rule because they can all be tied back to the basic rules.
Good luck getting a game in with that philosophy.
Ceann wrote: You are still wrong about the bikes.
If I add an IC with a bike to the unit that unit may have those rules, if the IC leaves those rules leave with him, that is advanced.
Quite wrong. An IC and the joined unit do not swap Special Rules. That is IC 101. A Bike Captain does not become Infantry just by joining a unit of Infantry. There are no rules or instructions to do so. He remains a Bike Unit Type.
Ceann wrote: Relentless is located under special rules in the unit type because it is a special rule, notice how the BRB never calls it a basic rule. All rules in a unit type that pertain to basic rules, are basic rules. Swooping and zooming are different kinds of movement rules, they are still movement rules nonetheless, making them basic moves.
Your reasoning is flawed as they change many of the rules on how they interact, therefore they are Special Rules. Relentless also refers back to the Movement Phase, Shooting Phase, and Assault Phase, that doesn't stop them from being a special rule.
You have yet to provide any single sentence that states that special rules are only found in the one place and its location is the only definition to go by. You have yet to provide any single sentence which states that the definition I have provided is not the definition the rulebook goes by.
Ceann wrote: If a rule included in the unit types is specific to a phase, it is a basic rule for that unit type for that phase as long as it is the movement, shooting , assault phase, or is a rule for morale.
For the unit type, not the game. Where does it state that I can ignore Terrain in the Movement Phase? Where does it state I can reroll the Charge Distance in the Assault Phase? Where does it state that a model treats Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain in the Movement or the Assault Phase?
Ceann wrote: Calvary and beasts do not modify any base rule, the movement rules for calvary and beasts are the basic movement rules for them, not an advanced rule.
For them, not the game. Where does it state that Cavalry and Beasts can move 12" in the Movement Phase section? It's not in the Movement Phase section of the rulebook so it is not basic rules. The Movement Distance portion of the Movement Phase section does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type to determine the model's movement distance.
Ceann wrote: Advanced rules apply to models, if I have 30 bikes what specific model has splitfire? None, they all do. That is a special rule. If there is a unit of 30 with one bike that is an advanced rule a specific model has the rule, not the unit.
Bikes do not come with Split Fire by default. Split Fire is a special rule that is added on elsewhere. If it is added on by their Army List Entry, those are "Special Rules which apply to the models in the unit listed there." (direct quote from datasheet legend, btw)
As it is, only one model in the unit needs to have Split Fire in order for any of the models to use it. This point is based on faulty presumptions, so I do not see where it is going.
Ceann wrote: If you have a bike unit and an IC joins he gains spitfire, if he leaves he loses it.
No, he does not gain Split Fire. He can fire at a different target from the rest of the bike unit, because that's how Split Fire works.
Ceann wrote: Two different scenarios, one with the advanced rules attached to a specific model and one with the special rules attached to the unit.
Special Rules are Advanced Rules. Advanced Rules are Special Rules. By their own definitions.
Ceann wrote: That is the only real difference between advanced rules and special rules, one is being applied via unit one is being applied via a model.
Logic based on faulty premises is faulty. Those statements cannot be found in either rulebook or codex.
Ceann wrote: The difference. Is the SOURCE of how that rule is gained.
But you don't understand any of this, it's too hard for you.
You can't reverse analyze what you are saying and see how it doesn't work backwards.
You have provided nothing to demonstrate these things without taking things out of context. I don't have to accept out of context interpretations.
Just because we don't accept what you are saying doesn't mean we don't understand what you are saying. We are saying you are wrong.
Infantry is a unit type, it is in the unit section. Infantry unit types were used as the examples to explain the rules in the core rules section.
These are examples buddy.
Where does it call them examples in any of these cases? Quote it, please.
Ceann wrote: What does it say, it says those are the rules that pertain to infantry and it also says "so far" that means they are not yet done telling you. It also states that unit types are an EXTENSION of the characteristics profile. That means an extension of that means they are basic rules. The core rules tell you HOW to use the values you get from types. Because infantry are the most common and least complicated unit type they used those while explaining the core rules.
Just because they are listed in the Characteristics does not make them basic rules. Calling them something else is basic, but all else is Advanced. By extension of this concept, nothing is a special rule or advanced rule because they can all be tied back to the basic rules.
Good luck getting a game in with that philosophy.
Ceann wrote: You are still wrong about the bikes.
If I add an IC with a bike to the unit that unit may have those rules, if the IC leaves those rules leave with him, that is advanced.
Quite wrong. An IC and the joined unit do not swap Special Rules. That is IC 101. A Bike Captain does not become Infantry just by joining a unit of Infantry. There are no rules or instructions to do so. He remains a Bike Unit Type.
Ceann wrote: Relentless is located under special rules in the unit type because it is a special rule, notice how the BRB never calls it a basic rule. All rules in a unit type that pertain to basic rules, are basic rules. Swooping and zooming are different kinds of movement rules, they are still movement rules nonetheless, making them basic moves.
Your reasoning is flawed as they change many of the rules on how they interact, therefore they are Special Rules. Relentless also refers back to the Movement Phase, Shooting Phase, and Assault Phase, that doesn't stop them from being a special rule.
You have yet to provide any single sentence that states that special rules are only found in the one place and its location is the only definition to go by. You have yet to provide any single sentence which states that the definition I have provided is not the definition the rulebook goes by.
Ceann wrote: If a rule included in the unit types is specific to a phase, it is a basic rule for that unit type for that phase as long as it is the movement, shooting , assault phase, or is a rule for morale.
For the unit type, not the game. Where does it state that I can ignore Terrain in the Movement Phase? Where does it state I can reroll the Charge Distance in the Assault Phase? Where does it state that a model treats Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain in the Movement or the Assault Phase?
Ceann wrote: Calvary and beasts do not modify any base rule, the movement rules for calvary and beasts are the basic movement rules for them, not an advanced rule.
For them, not the game. Where does it state that Cavalry and Beasts can move 12" in the Movement Phase section? It's not in the Movement Phase section of the rulebook so it is not basic rules. The Movement Distance portion of the Movement Phase section does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type to determine the model's movement distance.
Ceann wrote: Advanced rules apply to models, if I have 30 bikes what specific model has splitfire? None, they all do. That is a special rule. If there is a unit of 30 with one bike that is an advanced rule a specific model has the rule, not the unit.
Bikes do not come with Split Fire by default. Split Fire is a special rule that is added on elsewhere. If it is added on by their Army List Entry, those are "Special Rules which apply to the models in the unit listed there." (direct quote from datasheet legend, btw)
As it is, only one model in the unit needs to have Split Fire in order for any of the models to use it. This point is based on faulty presumptions, so I do not see where it is going.
Ceann wrote: If you have a bike unit and an IC joins he gains spitfire, if he leaves he loses it.
No, he does not gain Split Fire. He can fire at a different target from the rest of the bike unit, because that's how Split Fire works.
Ceann wrote: Two different scenarios, one with the advanced rules attached to a specific model and one with the special rules attached to the unit.
Special Rules are Advanced Rules. Advanced Rules are Special Rules. By their own definitions.
Ceann wrote: That is the only real difference between advanced rules and special rules, one is being applied via unit one is being applied via a model.
Logic based on faulty premises is faulty. Those statements cannot be found in either rulebook or codex.
Ceann wrote: The difference. Is the SOURCE of how that rule is gained.
But you don't understand any of this, it's too hard for you.
You can't reverse analyze what you are saying and see how it doesn't work backwards.
You have provided nothing to demonstrate these things without taking things out of context. I don't have to accept out of context interpretations.
Just because we don't accept what you are saying doesn't mean we don't understand what you are saying. We are saying you are wrong.
This is not wrong you are being intentionally dense.
I am not trying to debate you I am trying to explain to you in what you are seeing differently and rather than analyze what I am saying and asking questions for clarification you are just attempting to shoot it all down without due consideration.
You want war, you got it.
This is not wrong you are being intentionally dense.
I am not trying to debate you I am trying to explain to you in what you are seeing differently and rather than analyze what I am saying and asking questions for clarification you are just attempting to shoot it all down without due consideration.
You want war, you got it.
Instead of war, I am sure all of us just want you to start backing up your argument with actual rules.
1. Splash Page for the BRB Page 7
This section contains all the basic rules you will need in order to command your army and fight 40k battles.
Note - ALL.
2. BRB Page 8
Other Important Information & Vehicle Characteristics
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
Note - UNITS TYPES are located and accounted for in CORE RULES making them BASIC RULES. Page numbers are included in the physical BRB.
3. Page 18 BRB
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
Note - Still the core rules section, all of these unit types are basic rules.
Need more? I can keep going.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It helps if you read the pages BEFORE making arguments rather than after I tell you the pages.
So are we done with this "unit types" are advanced rules nonsense? Only BASIC rules are in the core section and unit types are accounted for.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Only Infantry rules are basic rules right?
They might have too now, people have been saying unit types are advanced rules when clearly if you actually just read the core rules you will find out they are basic rules.
But people are more concerned with winning arguments than understanding the rules, or making snobby comments for no reason.
A couple have but did not feel inclined to stick around and educate the masses.
Ceann wrote: 1. Splash Page for the BRB Page 7
This section contains all the basic rules you will need in order to command your army and fight 40k battles.
Note - ALL.
2. BRB Page 8
Other Important Information & Vehicle Characteristics
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
Note - UNITS TYPES are located and accounted for in CORE RULES making them BASIC RULES. Page numbers are included in the physical BRB.
3. Page 18 BRB
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
Note - Still the core rules section, all of these unit types are basic rules.
OK, so according to you, the CORE RULES section contains all the basic rules correct?
Ceann wrote: They might have too now, people have been saying unit types are advanced rules when clearly if you actually just read the core rules you will find out they are basic rules.
But people are more concerned with winning arguments than understanding the rules, or making snobby comments for no reason.
A couple have but did not feel inclined to stick around and educate the masses.
Is the Unit Types section part of the Core Rules section?
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
If the Unit Types section is not in the Core Rules section then all the rules in the Unit Types section are NOT basic rules and are therefore advanced rules.
Ceann wrote: They might have too now, people have been saying unit types are advanced rules when clearly if you actually just read the core rules you will find out they are basic rules.
But people are more concerned with winning arguments than understanding the rules, or making snobby comments for no reason.
A couple have but did not feel inclined to stick around and educate the masses.
Is the Unit Types section part of the Core Rules section?
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
If the Unit Types section is not in the Core Rules section then all the rules in the Unit Types section are NOT basic rules and are therefore advanced rules.
Word soup.
Picking the words you want and ignoring the rest.
The physical BRB lists the page numbers, so yes those pages are in the core rules section.
Picking the words you want and ignoring the rest.
The physical BRB lists the page numbers, so yes those pages are in the core rules section.
The actual rules have to be in the Core Rules section for them to be basic rules.
The Unit Type section does not contain ANY basic rules. All the basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
All the rules in the Unit Type section are Advanced Rules if the dichotomy Basic versus Advanced applies to all rules.
1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.
2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.
That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
Ceann wrote: But people are more concerned with winning arguments than understanding the rules, or making snobby comments for no reason.
A couple have but did not feel inclined to stick around and educate the masses.
You really don't have any idea how funny that sounds coming from you, it's you that doesn't understand the rules and it's you that people aren't sticking around to educate. But hey one of these days you'll get something right, stopped clock being right and all that.
Picking the words you want and ignoring the rest.
The physical BRB lists the page numbers, so yes those pages are in the core rules section.
The actual rules have to be in the Core Rules section for them to be basic rules.
The Unit Type section does not contain ANY basic rules. All the basic rules are in the Core Rules section.
All the rules in the Unit Type section are Advanced Rules if the dichotomy Basic versus Advanced applies to all rules.
1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.
2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.
Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.
That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.
The page numbers are located in the core rules, therefore I am permitted to access them.
1) Yes, they are.
2) Yes, that is correct.
""""Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale. """"
What page number states this?
""""Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.""""
What page number states this?
3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules
What page number states this?
""""Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale. """"
What page number states this?
?
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
""""Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.""""
What page number states this?
Rules are either basic or advanced per the Basic Versus Advanced rule.
Spoiler:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).
We know where all the basic rules are.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Therefore, any rule that is not in the Core Rules section in the BRB is an advanced rule.
""""Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale. """"
What page number states this?
""""Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.""""
What page number states this?
?
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."
I understand what the quote from Basic vs Advanced states.
The other two lines are your own personal interpretation of what that actually means, is what I disagree with.
Hence your lack of page numbers when I asked for a reference of those statements.
The splash page for Unit Types does not say it contains ANY advanced rules at all.
Since the splash page is absolute as you have demonstrated, there are NO advanced rules in that section.
The spash page for the index however does say it contains Advanced Rules.
And since the Core Rules section specifys the pages of the Unit Types section, that makes them basic rules.
All advanced rules are located in the Appendix.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Core Rules
Other Important Information
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
Vehicle Characteristics
Vehicle characteristics are described in the vehicles section.
-----------------------------
Unit Types
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
-----------------------------
Core Rules states that Unit Types are part of the profile in the basic rules.
Unit Types page references that it has only explained the rules as the pertain to infantry and now explains the rules as they pertain to the other basic Unit Types. Each section has a specific statement on each side stating the relationship.
Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Unit Types - This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st Millenium and the rules you will need to use them.
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. However, whilst the definition of Infantry is incredibly broad (it can cover anything from the most diminutive Gretchin to the mightiest Space Marine), it’s not enough to capture the full variety, scope and splendour of a war-torn galaxy teeming with all manner of alien beasts.
To do justice to the full pomp and panoply of xenos creatures (as well as some of the weirder beings in service to the Emperor of Mankind), we will now cover a series of unit types, each with their own abilities and special rules. Vehicles are distinct enough to
require their own section later on.
Appendix - This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.
Other Important Information
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
Vehicle Characteristics
Vehicle characteristics are described in the vehicles section.
-----------------------------
Unit Types
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
-----------------------------
Core Rules states that Unit Types are part of the profile in the basic rules.
Unit Types page references that it has only explained the rules as the pertain to infantry and now explains the rules as they pertain to the other basic Unit Types. Each section has a specific statement on each side stating the relationship.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How about you start listing off some of the things that you believe to be "Advanced Rules" and I will let you know if I agree or disagree with you.
This will be the only way to we can accurately ensure we are coming to the same conclusion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can we talk about rad grenades now?
Ceann wrote:This is not wrong you are being intentionally dense.
No, I am not being intentionally dense. I am taking the rulebook's rules as they are written in the context in which they are stated.
Ceann wrote:I am not trying to debate you I am trying to explain to you in what you are seeing differently and rather than analyze what I am saying and asking questions for clarification you are just attempting to shoot it all down without due consideration.
If you are not trying to debate, then you are not listening to what the other side is saying. You have made it a dogmatic stance to stick to this interpretation and refuse to listen to anyone else.
I have analyzed what you have said and I have made every statement with due consideration. I have countered them with the rules themselves and taken those statements in context. If it seems that I respond quickly, it is because I am familiar with many of these rules and I have a digital copy of the rulebook that I can do a search on.
I even provided questions that would guide you through the paradigm of which I have presented. In those cases, you have failed to answer the challenge, either by deflecting, projecting, or simply ignoring them.
Ceann wrote:You want war, you got it.
You may want to rethink that. This statement could be construed as a personal attack, as could the first sentence.
Ceann wrote:1. Splash Page for the BRB Page 7
This section contains all the basic rules you will need in order to command your army and fight 40k battles.
Note - ALL.
2. BRB Page 8
Other Important Information & Vehicle Characteristics
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
Note - UNITS TYPES are located and accounted for in CORE RULES making them BASIC RULES. Page numbers are included in the physical BRB.
That is out of context. Noting that there is a Unit Type field and that they are there is all it does. What those unit types do are NOT basic rules nor core rules. I should note that the same splash page notes that Unit Types are NOT Core Rules, which could be translated as basic rules per the definition provided in Basic vs Advanced.
Again, this is like taking any special rule and calling it basic because it ties in to the basic rules of the game.
Ceann wrote:3. Page 18 BRB
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
Note - Still the core rules section, all of these unit types are basic rules.
Need more? I can keep going.
Still no statement of Infantry being an example or telling us to refer to the Unit Type to see how far it goes. I have stated that several times now and you still have yet to provide and adequate defense.
Ceann wrote:It helps if you read the pages BEFORE making arguments rather than after I tell you the pages.
So are we done with this "unit types" are advanced rules nonsense? Only BASIC rules are in the core section and unit types are accounted for.
Special Rules are also mentioned in the same areas. Are they core rules, too?
Your standard is mockable as it follows double standards. You require Special Rules to be only in a special place, but the rules for modifying the movement of a Unit Type can be found all over the place as basic rules and not in the section which defines them.
Even if we go by your standard that Basic rules cover all Movement, Shooting, Morale, and Assault rules, that does not cover Modifiers, as Modifiers are not addressed in that statement. Modifiers are applied to models as units do not carry such stats. Which still makes what Rad Grenades do a special rule.
Ceann wrote:Only Infantry rules are basic rules right?
Any rule that applies generally are Infantry rules, yes. In fact, "As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here." Anything that modifies or differentiates how a model acts from being Infantry is Advanced and Special Rules.
Infantry are located in the Unit Types section which per your terminology would also make them Advanced Rules.
My standard is not that basic rules "cover all Movement, Shooting, Morale, and Assault rules"
Basic vs Advanced.
"Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."
The unit types section provides rules that are used by those units for the purposes of movement, shooting close combat and morale. This says to me that all of those rules included in that section that pertain to those criteria, are also basic rules. Because basic rules apply to all models in the game.
A flyer cannot move like infantry unit.
Movement cannot be both a basic rule and an advanced rule.
We have to look at exactly what an advanced rule is asking for, not just grab a brush called "advanced rule" and paint it over the entire section.
We have not been given a statement such that the Core Rules has that it "contains all basic rules" or such that the special rules section has "presented all special rules".
If you read what Advanced Rules is asking for, those rules can really only be located in one place. The Army List Entry.
If the Unit Types section specifically contained Advanced Rules why does the index point us to page 13? That does not make sense. We should be pointed to Unit Types if that is where they were actually located.
This is why I have made the statement that only special rules are in the special rules section and everything else in the BRB is a basic rule. The only reference we have to the location of Advanced Rules is on page 13 and that tells us Army List Entrys.
The statement about Advanced rules applying to a specific model criteria are not tenable in the BRB. We description provided is extremely vauge and while you could maybe in your head try to imagine what it is referencing you are just guessing. The BRB actually discusses no specific models I am aware of, that only happens in an Army List Entry, such as buying a plasma pistol for a sergeant. Or a unit have "regeneration" IWND by purchasing some wargear and the other vaguely described terms.
If you analyze the entire Basic vs Advanced as a whole I think the following is quite a reasonable conclusion as it corolates the statement that Codex rules supersede BRB but are still supersede by special rules.
1. All basic rules are in the BRB 2. All USR's are located in the special rules sections.
3. All advanced rules are located on Army List Entry's or codex's.
4. Any special rules not in the BRB will be in their appropriate codex.
Ceann wrote: Infantry are located in the Unit Types section which per your terminology would also make them Advanced Rules.
And what does the Infantry entry state?
Ceann wrote: My standard is not that basic rules "cover all Movement, Shooting, Morale, and Assault rules"
Really? Because that is how you have presented it. Cavalry and Beast Unit Types can move 12". This is 6" more than the Movement Distance in the Basic Rules. You have stated that this is basic rules.
So, either you saying that 12" Movement is basic rules despite what is written in the Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section, and thus all such modifications are basic rules, OR your concept is falling flat on its own face and 12" Movement is not basic rules, but advanced rules as its out of that range and special rules because it breaks the 6" Movement Distance.
So, which is it?
Ceann wrote: Basic vs Advanced.
"Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."
The unit types section provides rules that are used by those units for the purposes of movement, shooting close combat and morale. This says to me that all of those rules included in that section that pertain to those criteria, are also basic rules. Because basic rules apply to all models in the game.
Which is what I said you were saying.
Ceann wrote: A flyer cannot move like infantry unit.
Movement cannot be both a basic rule and an advanced rule.
Why not?
What makes Flyers so different that it cannot be applied in the same concept form for other Vehicles, Beasts, Cavalry, and Jumpers?
When it follows the Infantry standard, it is basic rules. Monstrous Creatures and Walkers move like Infantry, so no Advanced rules there. However, other Vehicles, Beasts, Cavalry, and Jumpers can move more than the Infantry's 6". This change makes it an Advanced Rule.
Ceann wrote: We have to look at exactly what an advanced rule is asking for, not just grab a brush called "advanced rule" and paint it over the entire section.
Agreed. And I should point out that Advanced rules do consider these things, but I guess you didn't read that part did you?
Here you go:
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
So, yeah, not being an Infantry model is Advanced Rules.
Ceann wrote: We have not been given a statement such that the Core Rules has that it "contains all basic rules" or such that the special rules section has "presented all special rules".
Well, actually we have. You have ignored it and not accepted it. There is a difference in that.
Ceann wrote: If you read what Advanced Rules is asking for, those rules can really only be located in one place. The Army List Entry.
If the Unit Types section specifically contained Advanced Rules why does the index point us to page 13? That does not make sense. We should be pointed to Unit Types if that is where they were actually located.
I do not have the dead-tree version, so I don't know why it doesn't send you to that section. Does it really on show page 13? Or is it because it is mentioned on page 13, without actually defining much of any of the rules for that?
Ceann wrote: This is why I have made the statement that only special rules are in the special rules section and everything else in the BRB is a basic rule. The only reference we have to the location of Advanced Rules is on page 13 and that tells us Army List Entrys.
So, you do believe that everything that links back to Movement, Shooting, Morale, and Assault are basic rules, despite denying it just a few short paragraphs before.
To put it bluntly, you are being far too close-minded. You are adding things to the situation that it does not state, while ignoring many of the things that are said.
Ceann wrote: The statement about Advanced rules applying to a specific model criteria are not tenable in the BRB. We description provided is extremely vauge and while you could maybe in your head try to imagine what it is referencing you are just guessing. The BRB actually discusses no specific models I am aware of, that only happens in an Army List Entry, such as buying a plasma pistol for a sergeant. Or a unit have "regeneration" IWND by purchasing some wargear and the other vaguely described terms.
If you think that the BRB never discusses specific models, then you need to reread the entire rulebook with a paradigm shift. There are plenty of occasions where it talks about models specifically. Look up Who gets to Shoot. Look up Move Initial Charger. Look up Characters.
Ceann wrote: If you analyze the entire Basic vs Advanced as a whole I think the following is quite a reasonable conclusion as it corolates the statement that Codex rules supersede BRB but are still supersede by special rules.
1. All basic rules are in the BRB 2. All USR's are located in the special rules sections.
All true and never in argument, but we haven't been talking about Universal Special Rules here. The Universals are all you will find in the Special Rules section of the BRB. For things more specific, we have to drill down in other places like the Unit Types or the Army List Entries.
Ceann wrote: 3. All advanced rules are located on Army List Entry's or codex's.
Well, sure, if you want to pick and choose what you want to work with in the definition of Advanced Rules. We can do all sorts of things in evaluating the rules if we do that. I already pointed out to you a couple things you missed.
While you can find a unit's Advanced Rules on its Army List Entry, they are often not defined there. In most cases, you have to either refer back to the BRB for Unit Type, USRs, and some Wargear. While most new codex rules will be found in the codex's Appendix (depending on the age of the codex), with some unique special rules and Wargear being detailed in the Army List Entry (like Hunters From Hyperspace).
Ceann wrote: 4. Any special rules not in the BRB will be in their appropriate codex.
True. But that doesn't mean they won't be found in Wargear, either.
Ceann wrote: 1. Splash Page for the BRB Page 7
This section contains all the basic rules you will need in order to command your army and fight 40k battles.
Note - ALL.
Here is your flaw, this is no different than claiming as example all the space marines you own are those who come with a starter box, but also refusing to aknowledge not everything in that starter box is a marine model ( since some orks or chaos marines comes too )
You believe everything in the rulebook aside the final "special rules" are basic, when most of those are advanced versions of it.
Special unit types, special wargear and advanced rules that allow to bend normal ones. ( so concentrated wichtfire being resolved differently than normal shooting attacks as example)
My standard cannot be exactly as you stated it, the reason why my statement is different is I would like for you to look at the verbiage. It might surprise you that things you say don't always appear to make sense either, so ask for clarification not claim I am contradicting myself.
Maybe I mistook the way you placed it but it seemed that you were saying, that I was saying, the basic rules consisted of ONLY those things. I wanted to clarify that other things were also basic rules as well.
Core rules does tell you ALL of the basic rules. The basic rules consist of everything about HOW to play the game. Whatever unit type, weapon, psychic power you use, those are not new rules, they are basic rules and they plug into phases described within the core rules.
A simplified example a gave earlier....
The core rules tell you how to wear hats, shirts, pants, shoes etc. This is so that you know how to wear all of those things correctly.
Besides the special rules, all of the other sections only tell you about different kinds of hats, shirts,pants and shoes. They do not tell you any new rules, they only tell you about different options based upon their types. The core rules section repeatedly references the different unit types and states it will explain them later in order to present the most simplified example of HOW the rules function. All the other things tell you is how different things fit into the rules that were described.
If I show you how to put on green pants and someone else shows up wearing blue pants, he doesn't have something new, he has different color pants, they are still pants.
We are not being told in a different section about how gloves work, or earrings. Everything we are told in the rest of the book afterwards are simply the options available WITHIN the phases of the game that were explained. We are not told NEW kinds of rules outside of the core section.
I missed you asked, yes the physical BRB index tells you page 13 if you go to it and look for "Advanced Rules" it has pg 13. Nothing else.
In Basic vs Advanced we are told...
.""""""Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale.""""""
As I said before, a flyer cannot move 6, it must move 18".
Movement is a basic rule. Hence any movement cannot be an advanced rule. It cannot be a basic rule and an advanced rule, at the same time. The only rules in the unit types section that are not used as the "include" four types are the special rules and those are located in the special rules section. Doesn't matter if its tap dancing or whatever.
We are also told these things...
""""""Advanced rules apply to specific types of models....""""""
(the examples they provide are just as I mentioned vague examples)
""""""The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.""""""
""""""For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence..""""""
It doesn't say it, but this is clearly an example of fearless.
Advanced rules include things, such as the options on a data sheet to purchase gear.
In my GK codex, for Brother-Captain Stern. The ability Strands of Fate, is an advanced rule and Zone of Banishment.
The champions have, Heroic Sacrifice, The Perfect Warrior, these are not listed as special rules on the army list entry, making them advanced rules.
Blessing of the Omnissiah and Bolster Defenses are advanced rules for a Techmarine.
Purchasing a relic is an advanced rule.
These seem to fit your definition of Advanced rules that include "special kind of weapon, unusual skills, because they are different to their fellows, because they are not normal infantry models" a lot better than saying all of the unit rules in the codex are advanced rules. These things are also indicated on their Army List Entry and not located under the special rules section.
Your interpretation of the above is extremely disingenuous you are basing what is a basic rule off a statement that doesn't even make sense when you apply it.
What is a "non-normal" infantry model? That would be a sergeant in a squad, or a Justicar, or an Ch, these are all non-normal infantry models. It doesn't say NON INFANTRY model, it says non NORMAL infantry. It is also referring to for example that beast has the special rule FLEET by virtue of being a beast, not because it moves 12". Infantry have no default special rules. A chariot might have Hammer of Wrath, a bike or a tank might have Relentless, by virtue of the unit type. Not because the basic rules they used are advanced rules. The vague way they worded this creates an impression that non-advanced rules are advanced rules. Again movement cannot be an advanced rule, because it is already a basic rule.
BRB Page 17.
2. Movement phase. Here, you MOVE any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.
BRB Page 18.
Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that MOVE at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency.
Jetpack Units
MOVEMENT
Jet Pack units can MOVE as normal models of their type or use their jet packs (see below).
SKYBORNE
When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can MOVE
Thrust move - A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can MOVE...
SPECIAL RULES
Jet Pack units have the Bulky, Deep Strike and Relentless special rules.
By what I was saying, the above are all basic movement rules, or special rules. Where do we get a conclusion that there is an advanced rule here?
1. Glad we agree
2. Glad we agree
3. A place of contention - Can you give me a specific example that you feel contradicts how I stated these work?
4. It does actually. See the Datasheet guide for the units.
10. Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed in either the Appendix of this book or in the special rules section of Warhammer 40k: The Rules.
This means that unless you are TOLD it is a special rule, such as the case for Rad Grenades not being listed under the special rules section of an Inquistors Army List Entry, then it is not a special rule. Notice that the Army List Entry only points us back to the SPECIAL RULES section of the BRB. This also coincides with my statements that ALL special rules found within the BRB are in the special rules section.
Unusual grenades are not in the special rules section.
Rad Grenades are an list option, making them advanced rules.
Advanced rules supersede the basic rules.
We use the verbatim statement of rad grenades in Codex: IA.
Does that entry say they have a special rule?
Does the Codex IA appendix say they have a special rule?
