Part of me hopes that Sam missing the key plot point and heading off is never addressed again. Jon's lineage is lost to the ages, and that whole plot is just left dangling amidst the white walker carnage. That'd probably be a bit too whacky though
Unless the kid brings it with him and someone stumbles upon it, like Davos did when the call went out for reinforcements needed at the wall.
Sister might have also written a letter to brother about getting married and being pregnant, a letter that may be in Winterfell, with only one copy existing.
No, that letter was the letter Cersei made Sansa write to Robb when Ned was arrested for treason, telling Robb to come and bend the knee to King Joffrey.
gorgon wrote: Bronn only had to swim down how many feet, stop jaime's descent and then swim however far to shore, with both of them in battle armor. That's a layup for Bronn the almighty.
Edit: I'm surprised he didn't do it while singing. Underwater.
You gotta think it's going to be an awkward conversation when Jon introduces Sam to his new girlfriend, who roasted his family alive. Sam was estranged from his dad, but still...
There's estranged and then there's "I gave you the option to go die in the snow or I'd shoot you myself and you failed to do either". I think Sam can let it go.
He and his brother didn't seem to be on bad terms, IIRC. I don't think Sam would just shrug it off. But then it's also GoT post-Martin, where stuff just happens at breakneck speed and never mind the details.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...would a hammer work against the undead? If this were DnD then I would say yes, but I don't know how GoT rules work.
I think Shaun of the Dead rules cover it "Remove the head, or destroy the brain", whilst decapitating with a hammer is a tad unlikely the second half seems doable, also hard to shamble with no kneecaps...
I could have sworn one of them was still active even when headless though. Might work against the more skeletal ones though, because they'd get broken into tiny little bits.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...would a hammer work against the undead? If this were DnD then I would say yes, but I don't know how GoT rules work.
I think Shaun of the Dead rules cover it "Remove the head, or destroy the brain", whilst decapitating with a hammer is a tad unlikely the second half seems doable, also hard to shamble with no kneecaps...
Yeah. Somehow giant hammer and years of rowing and blacksmithing give you a strong hammer arm should be effective VS the undead.
But if you have Walking Dead rules where most skills are made of jelly, his hammer should have no problem smushing the deadites. Or maybe it's Plot Armor that turns skulls to jelly, but they're hard for everyone else?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...would a hammer work against the undead? If this were DnD then I would say yes, but I don't know how GoT rules work.
I think Shaun of the Dead rules cover it "Remove the head, or destroy the brain", whilst decapitating with a hammer is a tad unlikely the second half seems doable, also hard to shamble with no kneecaps...
Yeah. Somehow giant hammer and years of rowing and blacksmithing give you a strong hammer arm should be effective VS the undead.
If arrows etc work, a giant ass hammer will.
The arrows were tipped with dragon glass iirc, and that appears to be a 1hko against them though. Because...magic I guess?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...would a hammer work against the undead? If this were DnD then I would say yes, but I don't know how GoT rules work.
I think Shaun of the Dead rules cover it "Remove the head, or destroy the brain", whilst decapitating with a hammer is a tad unlikely the second half seems doable, also hard to shamble with no kneecaps...
Yeah. Somehow giant hammer and years of rowing and blacksmithing give you a strong hammer arm should be effective VS the undead.
If arrows etc work, a giant ass hammer will.
The arrows were tipped with dragon glass iirc, and that appears to be a 1hko against them though. Because...magic I guess?
True and John now had more than a few scavenged bits of dragon glass from the first but a rather large supply now.
I imagine that a hammer is more effective against the undead depicted on GoT than most bladed weapons, because from what we've seen its not so much about 'sticking them in the head' like it is with Walking Dead, you pretty much have to dismember them/smash them into pieces to stop them.
Thus, a hammer, which can likely shatter undead with a solid hit would probably be the best choice outside of a Valyrian (sp?) steel or dragonglass weapon.
I imagine that a hammer is more effective against the undead depicted on GoT than most bladed weapons, because from what we've seen its not so much about 'sticking them in the head' like it is with Walking Dead, you pretty much have to dismember them/smash them into pieces to stop them.
Thus, a hammer, which can likely shatter undead with a solid hit would probably be the best choice outside of a Valyrian (sp?) steel or dragonglass weapon.
Best choice might be large, winged and be very very good at roasting things.
that steam sure grew into a big lake and it sure was easy for Bron and Jamie to escape back to Kings Landing - but hey nice touches and good story progression.
Dany burning people was fine - normal medievil solution to problems - kill those too stupid to bow to you. You need to watch the ones that do (Littlefinger style) but most people really don't care who rules - oe whose head is on a stake - see Cersei being the rightfull ruler etcc
Jory and Dany - Bless.
Good chat with Tyrion and Varis - nicely played.
Tideying up plots nicely and now we have the Seven Samurai going up north (although a quick flight with a Dragon would have done the same.
Saw Cersei's pregnancy coming - would make her the only ruler with an heir. Borther / Sister thing - worked for the Targyrians so again people simply won;t care,
I hope we don't get more of the stupid "not elves"
that steam sure grew into a big lake and it sure was easy for Bron and Jamie to escape back to Kings Landing - but hey nice touches and good story progression.
Dany burning people was fine - normal medievil solution to problems - kill those too stupid to bow to you. You need to watch the ones that do (Littlefinger style) but most people really don't care who rules - oe whose head is on a stake - see Cersei being the rightfull ruler etcc
Jory and Dany - Bless.
Good chat with Tyrion and Varis - nicely played.
Tideying up plots nicely and now we have the Seven Samurai going up north (although a quick flight with a Dragon would have done the same.
Saw Cersei's pregnancy coming - would make her the only ruler with an heir. Borther / Sister thing - worked for the Targyrians so again people simply won;t care,
I hope we don't get more of the stupid "not elves"
Well that was surprisingly good. I was expecting an episode of setting things up but it managed to throw a couple of curve balls in there.
The prospect of the war for the iron throne being put on hold, kepts Jamie and cersei in the game instead of dani winning out by the end of this season. Keeps thing much more interesting.
Gendry is back in the game, awesome. Is it just me or was his Warhammer rather black, dragonglass perhaps?
The snuck in line implying John isn't a bastard at all, and in fact rightful heir to the throne. That was really done in a subtle way, I'm sure more casual viewers won't have picked up on it.
And the showdown between Arya and little finger is being set up nicely. Littlefinger has come across as a bit helpless and out of his depth this season, in this one he seemed to be pulling the strings again.
A friend just raised a very valid question. If Cersei intends to tell everyone she is pregnant with Jamie's child what does that mean for Euron. Given that he's the main reason the Lannisters are still around at this point, how is his loyalty going to hold up if marrying Cersei is off the table?
They've been setting up that mountain for a while. The armour on the White Walkers is a pyramid, likely referencing that mountain. In the Hound's vision of the army of the dead, he describes a mountain that looks like an arrowhead. I've no idea what they've been hinting at with that mountain all this time, maybe just as the home of the White Walkers?
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Tamereth wrote: A friend just raised a very valid question. If Cersei intends to tell everyone she is pregnant with Jamie's child what does that mean for Euron. Given that he's the main reason the Lannisters are still around at this point, how is his loyalty going to hold up if marrying Cersei is off the table?
If the prophecy Cersei received is all coming true (queen for a while, she'd have 3 kids & they would all die etc), how does the reconcile with her new pregnancy? Will she die before giving birth?
Tamereth wrote: A friend just raised a very valid question. If Cersei intends to tell everyone she is pregnant with Jamie's child what does that mean for Euron. Given that he's the main reason the Lannisters are still around at this point, how is his loyalty going to hold up if marrying Cersei is off the table?
He doesn't give a feth about things like babies, friendship, family, moral ?!
sebster wrote: If the prophecy Cersei received is all coming true (queen for a while, she'd have 3 kids & they would all die etc), how does the reconcile with her new pregnancy? Will she die before giving birth?
My guess is it will go one of two ways:
She loses the baby, has a psychotic break, and goes full-on Aerys. Jaime is horrified at what she's become and kills her.
She doesn't lose the baby and goes full-on Aerys. Jaime is horrified at what she's become and kills her while she's pregnant.
This is a show that doesn't shy away from putting babies to the sword, so I suppose either is equally possible. Those are my guesses.
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warwarwar wrote: He doesn't give a feth about things like babies, friendship, family, moral ?!
No, I am sure Euron wouldn't be put off by it at all. He'd rationalize that if needed, babies and kids die all the time in all sorts of accidents.
d-usa wrote: I was trying to figure out if the baby could be the brother that kills her, but I'm no good at Incest Venn Diagrams.
Well if Jamie's the father and she dies during childbirth, you could just about bend that around to her brother killing her. Bonus points if there's some extra poetry and the kid turns out to be a dwarf like Tyrion, but Jaime just deals with it instead of turning into a **** like his dad did.
but Jaime just deals with it instead of turning into a **** like his dad did.
You do make a good point, why didn't just Tywin just cut Tirion's throat at birth rather than suffering a freak to bear the Lannister name? His wife died during childbirth so she couldn't have been the one to protect him.
I think you overestimate Jamie. He is certainly a hard hearted man, but I think he really wants to be a proper father rather than hiding in the shadows and I can't see him euthanising his baby even if it was a dwarf.
Personally I doubt the baby is even real and that Cersei is just using the idea to ensure Jamie's loyalty.
So I was thinking that it's almost impossible to believe that Cersei would ever send her (now-reduced) assets to help her enemies, or that Daenerys and company would think she's open to a rational appeal and able to behave honorably.
For the show to sustain any believability, she almost has to be knocked off first before Lannister forces can go north, right?
I dunno, she's proven to be pragmatic when necessary, I think if she's convinced that the threat of the Dead is real that she will be prepared to tackle it.
The caveats to that are 1) her paranoia may make her impossible to convince 2) she will probably look to hang everyone else out to dry once she feels the threat from the Dead has been eliminated/mitigated sufficiently.
Plus, everyone seems to be taking it at face value that she actually is pregnant, manipulating a man by telling him you're carrying his baby is a play from the very first edition of the woman playbook!
gorgon wrote: So I was thinking that it's almost impossible to believe that Cersei would ever send her (now-reduced) assets to help her enemies, or that Daenerys and company would think she's open to a rational appeal and able to behave honorably.
For the show to sustain any believability, she almost has to be knocked off first before Lannister forces can go north, right?
They actually don't need Cersei to send men - just pledeg not to attack Dany's supply lines or cause issues for them in the backfield - in fact her biggest offer is that she has the Iron Bank on her side and could therefore bankroll the campaign against the dead. Some one has to pay for the food, lodging, equipment, fodder etc etc.
A token force under Jamie would likely be sufficient.
She stated pretty plainly that she sees this alliance as an opportunity to kill her rivals when they let their guard down. I'm sure she'll commit more than a token force; it will just be one whose primary objective isn't really taking on the army of the dead.
but Jaime just deals with it instead of turning into a **** like his dad did.
You do make a good point, why didn't just Tywin just cut Tirion's throat at birth rather than suffering a freak to bear the Lannister name? His wife died during childbirth so she couldn't have been the one to protect him.
I think you overestimate Jamie. He is certainly a hard hearted man, but I think he really wants to be a proper father rather than hiding in the shadows and I can't see him euthanising his baby even if it was a dwarf.
Personally I doubt the baby is even real and that Cersei is just using the idea to ensure Jamie's loyalty.
Err, when I said "deals with it" I meant emotionally and with maturity, not with infanticide, lol
They seem to be trying to put Jaime on a redemption arc, and treating his son as simply his son in the exact opposite way to how his father and sister reacted to Tyrion would be one way to reinforce that arc.
I had a thought - they've made a point of mentioning Jorah's dad the Lord Commander a couple of times this series. Thinking past the show and to the epilogue, I wonder if after things play out, however they play out, Jorah follows his father's footsteps by taking the black? It would be a fitting end to Jorah's story, I think. This assumes that at the end of the show there's night's watch and something to watch, of course.
Ouze wrote: My guess is it will go one of two ways:
She loses the baby, has a psychotic break, and goes full-on Aerys. Jaime is horrified at what she's become and kills her.
She doesn't lose the baby and goes full-on Aerys. Jaime is horrified at what she's become and kills her while she's pregnant.
This is a show that doesn't shy away from putting babies to the sword, so I suppose either is equally possible. Those are my guesses.
My previous post I was about to ask if the show was full on enough to kill a pregnant woman, then halfway through typing I remembered that time when a pregnant woman was murdered.
But yeah, I think your two guesses are probably the two most likely ways its gonna play out.
But, how long will the Iron Bank stick with Cersei now that they lost the gold train to Danni? I am no way convinced they got the gold out of the attack.
gorgon wrote: So I was thinking that it's almost impossible to believe that Cersei would ever send her (now-reduced) assets to help her enemies, or that Daenerys and company would think she's open to a rational appeal and able to behave honorably.
For the show to sustain any believability, she almost has to be knocked off first before Lannister forces can go north, right?
They don't need Cersei's military. They just need her to agree to stay put and not do anything while Jon and Daenerys fight the army of the dead.
Cersei will agree to this. In the position she's any offer of time is invaluable.
Nor do Jon and Daenerys need to believe Cersei will honour any deal. They just need to know that she will understand for her own sake that she shouldn't push the limits of the ceasefire too far or risk Daenerys turning her attentions back on Cersei. So she'll look to rebuild her army, hire mercenaries and so forth. But she won't dare threaten Dragonstone or any lines of supply to the army fighting up North.
That's my take anyway.
The question I have is how much good the Dothraki will be in the snow. Last season it was mentioned in passing that the Lannister army was a summer army and wouldn't venture North, so what of the Dothraki? What are their horses going to eat up there?
MDSW wrote: But, how long will the Iron Bank stick with Cersei now that they lost the gold train to Danni? I am no way convinced they got the gold out of the attack.
If I remember right the scene started off with them saying something along the line of "the gold made it through the gate, but all these people here are straggling behind and need to hurry up before we get attacked."
MDSW wrote: But, how long will the Iron Bank stick with Cersei now that they lost the gold train to Danni? I am no way convinced they got the gold out of the attack.
If I remember right the scene started off with them saying something along the line of "the gold made it through the gate, but all these people here are straggling behind and need to hurry up before we get attacked."
Gold made it.
The important food to feed the capital and its armies over the winter was burned.
MDSW wrote: But, how long will the Iron Bank stick with Cersei now that they lost the gold train to Danni? I am no way convinced they got the gold out of the attack.
If I remember right the scene started off with them saying something along the line of "the gold made it through the gate, but all these people here are straggling behind and need to hurry up before we get attacked."
I missed that reference... Darn it, I wanted Cersei to have to find another bargaining chip - getting a ton of gold is just too easy.
sebster wrote: I had a thought - they've made a point of mentioning Jorah's dad the Lord Commander a couple of times this series. Thinking past the show and to the epilogue, I wonder if after things play out, however they play out, Jorah follows his father's footsteps by taking the black? It would be a fitting end to Jorah's story, I think. This assumes that at the end of the show there's night's watch and something to watch, of course.
sebster wrote: I had a thought - they've made a point of mentioning Jorah's dad the Lord Commander a couple of times this series. Thinking past the show and to the epilogue, I wonder if after things play out, however they play out, Jorah follows his father's footsteps by taking the black? It would be a fitting end to Jorah's story, I think. This assumes that at the end of the show there's night's watch and something to watch, of course.
That would be terrific.
Pretty depressing end I would think - doomed to die away from the woman he loves
d-usa wrote: But also as a respected man and able to bring honor to your house.
If Dany wins, he would be likely be raised up high in the ranks of nobility. If she looses he will likely be dead.
Now this may change but uptill now Taking the Black is a punishment or a last resort - not a reward. It is where you send the dregs of your House - not the best.
I could see Jamie ending up there if House Lanister falls but like Jorah I can't see him deserting his beloved, especailly not if the child is real.
Your crimes may be forgotten but your also contracted for life to serve in the watch.
It's a home for the deserters, criminals, those whose house has fallen or the dishonoured.
For its important duty. John joined because he was a basted, and also wanted to serve alongside his uncle.
Its not like the kings guard, or such. A honoured brotherhood.
Err, when I said "deals with it" I meant emotionally and with maturity, not with infanticide, lol
They seem to be trying to put Jaime on a redemption arc, and treating his son as simply his son in the exact opposite way to how his father and sister reacted to Tyrion would be one way to reinforce that arc.
Ah I see... well now I understand what happened to Thomas the Becket a bit better haha!
That would be a little neat for GoT, I reakon he should catch dysentery during the siege of Kings Landing and die with his hopes and dreams unfulfilled :-P
Who is to say that's how it'll be in the future? Especially if it ends up like my theory of "Nights Watch" = "UN Demilitarised Zone" rather than "Romans at Hadrians Wall" pans out
Who is to say that's how it'll be in the future? Especially if it ends up like my theory of "Nights Watch" = "UN Demilitarised Zone" rather than "Romans at Hadrians Wall" pans out
Hadrians wall was as much to control trade as to keep an eye on hostiles.
If the "new" Nights Watch is there to poilce a neutral zone then its not the Nights Watch is something new and very different.
Even so why would that be a great thing for Jorah - serving his Queen is all he wants - exiled to a freezing outpost is not exactly a reward.
Who is to say that's how it'll be in the future? Especially if it ends up like my theory of "Nights Watch" = "UN Demilitarised Zone" rather than "Romans at Hadrians Wall" pans out
Hadrians wall was as much to control trade as to keep an eye on hostiles.
If the "new" Nights Watch is there to poilce a neutral zone then its not the Nights Watch is something new and very different.
Even so why would that be a great thing for Jorah - serving his Queen is all he wants - exiled to a freezing outpost is not exactly a reward.
Yeah. Ser friend zone would not be well rewarded.
Now the man's got to compete with the king of the North...
But if it's mission did change then maybe it's membership would. Less dumping ground more professional military force.
d-usa wrote: Once the threat from the north is known by all, the Nights Watch will be an honored group once again, and likely higher placed than the Kings Guard.
Or not, they may not even be remembered depending on what happens.
The Nights Watch is pretty much gone anyway - how many are left - 30?- the various defenders of the North might be remembered depending on what happens, who wins and who writes the histories.
Once the dead march south of the wall, and are (maybe) defeated in Westeros, I doubt that they will dig through brothels and prisons to reinforce the Nights Watch. Survivors of the battle, and losers of the war for the throne who still belong to great houses, will become the new men to take the black. Sure, generations down the line they will be back to protecting against scary monsters invented for the children. But he would be in great company of honorable men for now.
Looks like those two images are on the opposite sides of the mountain. The Children were probably north of the Mountain, and Jon & Co. are approaching from the south.
gorgon wrote: The hammer did a good enough job on Rhaegar when his daddy was swinging one.
Wonder if Gendry might have a crack at making some NEW Valyrian steel down the road? Jon can set him up with some dragonfire...
Its a little unfortunate that the show hasn't really given us the backstory to appreciate Gendry fighting with a hammer.
What backstory? He's a blacksmith, he hits stuff with a hammer for a living.
I believe they were referencing the fact that Robert Baratheon used a warhammer during his rebellion, like if the show made more of a thing about Robert using a hammer then Gendey using one would have more weight
Can someone refresh my memory on Jamie and Qyburn's relationship, please?
Seemed like Jamie was deliberately giving him the cold shoulder. Was it just because Jamie had more important stuff on his mind, or is he just not a big fan of Qyburn?
gorgon wrote: The hammer did a good enough job on Rhaegar when his daddy was swinging one.
Wonder if Gendry might have a crack at making some NEW Valyrian steel down the road? Jon can set him up with some dragonfire...
Its a little unfortunate that the show hasn't really given us the backstory to appreciate Gendry fighting with a hammer.
What backstory? He's a blacksmith, he hits stuff with a hammer for a living.
I believe they were referencing the fact that Robert Baratheon used a warhammer during his rebellion, like if the show made more of a thing about Robert using a hammer then Gendey using one would have more weight
My post
..................
You forget young Robert was a big man, powerful and skilled in combat.
The serris kinda makes this hard to remember, the fat whoring king was a skilled warrior, strong, fit and slew a targerian Prince, a skilled fighter and leader in personal combat.
His weapon was a heavy war hammer like a massive meat tendorizer with spikes back and top.
It was no light or easy to use weapon. It's last known location will be the armory at red keep so gendry might not be getting dads hammer so easily.
Old Robert was a very different man to king Robert.
nels1031 wrote: Can someone refresh my memory on Jamie and Qyburn's relationship, please?
Seemed like Jamie was deliberately giving him the cold shoulder. Was it just because Jamie had more important stuff on his mind, or is he just not a big fan of Qyburn?
Qyburn was the one who saved his arm from being removed. He worked for Roose Bolton back when he was with the Starks. He also hinted to him that he saved Kings Landing from from mad king.
However, he also found out about the Wildfyre under Kings Landing, so maybe Jamie isn't happy about how that ended up.
jhe90 wrote: Taking the black is the last resort. For life.
Your crimes may be forgotten but your also contracted for life to serve in the watch.
It's a home for the deserters, criminals, those whose house has fallen or the dishonoured.
For its important duty. John joined because he was a basted, and also wanted to serve alongside his uncle.
Its not like the kings guard, or such. A honoured brotherhood.
For thousands of years it was an honored brotherhood; the sad state it is now is not how things used to be.
Once, serving on the Wall was honor and a sign of selfless devotion to duty, with many knights, honorable men, and nobles taking the black voluntarily. The Night's Watch is now often seen only as a way to avoid punishment, suitable less for knights than for the dregs of Westeros. These men are salvaged from dungeons by traveling recruiters known as wandering crows. Disgraced nobles, bastards, and even the unwanted legitimate offspring of nobles are “encouraged” to take the black, making many of today’s Watch a surly and dissatisfied lot.
Those who come voluntarily are free to leave during any time of their training, but no man may leave after he has said vows. Any deserters are sentenced to death. After taking the vows, the men of the Watch cannot own any land, marry, or father children. Men are also encouraged to sever any ties left with their families, if they are lucky enough to have one.
Men of the Night's Watch are garbed all in black, a tradition that earned them the nickname "crows",[11] particularly among the free folk, who often call them "black crows."[12][13] While some use this name derogatorily, many in the Night's Watch have adopted the term for their own use.[14] They are also called the "black brothers",[1] and in song they have been called the "black knights of the Wall."
Its hard for me to imagine a scenario where the Knights Watch still exists at the end of the show. Obviously last time the White Walkers showed up, they were unable to permanently stop them, so they pushed them far north and built the wall to keep them out. When the white walkers manage to penetrate the wall (which they obviously will), it means the wall is no longer a protection against them. Thus, either the forces of man will either get wiped out (unlikely) or they'll figure out a way to defeat the white walkers once and for all (likely).
Thus, what would be the point of having the Kinghts Watch after that? Assuming the wall isn't somehow completely destroyed, what will be the point of rebuilding it and re-manning it? To keep any wildlings out that decide they want to go back to living beyond the wall? That's certainly not the kind of duty that is suddenly going to be desirable.
I guess we'll have to see how it all plays out. The future of the Knights Watch as an organization will come down to how the White Walkers are able to penetrate the wall (do they destroy the whole thing, or just figure out a temporary way through it that can be repaired later) and if the White Walkers don't end up getting destroyed but just pushed back beyond the wall (or it is revealed that they somehow always 'respawn' back beyond the wall eventually).
Its hard for me to imagine a scenario where the Knights Watch still exists at the end of the show. Obviously last time the White Walkers showed up, they were unable to permanently stop them, so they pushed them far north and built the wall to keep them out. When the white walkers manage to penetrate the wall (which they obviously will), it means the wall is no longer a protection against them. Thus, either the forces of man will either get wiped out (unlikely) or they'll figure out a way to defeat the white walkers once and for all (likely).
Thus, what would be the point of having the Kinghts Watch after that? Assuming the wall isn't somehow completely destroyed, what will be the point of rebuilding it and re-manning it? To keep any wildlings out that decide they want to go back to living beyond the wall? That's certainly not the kind of duty that is suddenly going to be desirable.
I guess we'll have to see how it all plays out. The future of the Knights Watch as an organization will come down to how the White Walkers are able to penetrate the wall (do they destroy the whole thing, or just figure out a temporary way through it that can be repaired later) and if the White Walkers don't end up getting destroyed but just pushed back beyond the wall (or it is revealed that they somehow always 'respawn' back beyond the wall eventually).
Night's Watch - otherwise it'd be a whole different thing. But yeah, otherwise you're right - if they exterminate the thing they are set against they aren't going to remain a whole big thing,
Mr Morden wrote: If Dany wins, he would be likely be raised up high in the ranks of nobility. If she looses he will likely be dead.
Now this may change but uptill now Taking the Black is a punishment or a last resort - not a reward. It is where you send the dregs of your House - not the best.
The watch was originally something men volunteered for, they were choosing to commit their lives to the defence of the realm. After learning the white walkers are real, it is likely Jorah or someone similar volunteering to take the black may be a signal of a return to taking the watch seriously and respectfully again.
Also, Jorah has been chasing absolution for past crimes since the beginning of the show. So it works on two levels.
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statu wrote: I believe they were referencing the fact that Robert Baratheon used a warhammer during his rebellion, like if the show made more of a thing about Robert using a hammer then Gendey using one would have more weight
Thing is, for someone just watching the tv show Gendry using the hammer doesn't have any greater meaning, and that's cool. But for people who know some more of the lore, it's a nice shout out to his heritage. It doesn't really have to have any more weight than that.
Also, Jorah has been chasing absolution for past crimes since the beginning of the show. So it works on two levels.
Dany forgave him and so that's all he will need I should think. If she wins he should have much better options - unless he wants to mope at the wall. If she loses - likely he will be dead. He is not Theon
Others are right it depends on what happens to the wall and the others.
The show is the show and not the books. But in a mythical universe where Martin finishes the books himself, I'd eat my hat if they end with the Others defeated once and for all and everyone living happily ever after.
sebster wrote: Thing is, for someone just watching the tv show Gendry using the hammer doesn't have any greater meaning, and that's cool. But for people who know some more of the lore, it's a nice shout out to his heritage. It doesn't really have to have any more weight than that.
Thing is, no one was actually trying to start a debate about that.
The show is the show and not the books. But in a mythical universe where Martin finishes the books himself, I'd eat my hat if they end with the Others defeated once and for all and everyone living happily ever after.
Cersi betrays the alliance and sets a plague upon the combined armies of Dany and Jon. Dany escapes but Jon dies and is raised as a wight that is torched in dragon fire. After finally defeating the Night King, Dany learns without a Night King the undead will go out of control. Just then, Jon's charred corpse staggers out and sits on the Night King's throne, vowing to keep the army of the dead contained to the north for all time.
The show is the show and not the books. But in a mythical universe where Martin finishes the books himself, I'd eat my hat if they end with the Others defeated once and for all and everyone living happily ever after.
Cersi betrays the alliance and sets a plague upon the combined armies of Dany and Jon. Dany escapes but Jon dies and is raised as a wight that is torched in dragon fire. After finally defeating the Night King, Dany learns without a Night King the undead will go out of control. Just then, Jon's charred corpse staggers out and sits on the Night King's throne, vowing to keep the army of the dead contained to the north for all time.
The show is the show and not the books. But in a mythical universe where Martin finishes the books himself, I'd eat my hat if they end with the Others defeated once and for all and everyone living happily ever after.
Cersi betrays the alliance and sets a plague upon the combined armies of Dany and Jon. Dany escapes but Jon dies and is raised as a wight that is torched in dragon fire. After finally defeating the Night King, Dany learns without a Night King the undead will go out of control. Just then, Jon's charred corpse staggers out and sits on the Night King's throne, vowing to keep the army of the dead contained to the north for all time.
Nice, although I like Jon as a demi-wight or (even better) demi-Other, as foreshadowed by Benjen/Coldhands just as Beric foreshadowed Jon's resurrection. That way he truly becomes ice and fire incarnate.
Mr Morden wrote: Dany forgave him and so that's all he will need I should think. If she wins he should have much better options - unless he wants to mope at the wall. If she loses - likely he will be dead. He is not Theon
Daenerys has forgiven him for his betrayal of her, but he did a whole bunch of bad gak that led him to spying on her in the first place that he's never atoned for. I wonder if he can return to Bear Island? Not even to rule, just to visit?
So what does he do instead? Assume lordship of minor property somewhere? He's probably too old to start a new family, so does he just hang around waiting for his queen to call and ask him to open jars and get the internet working?
I think the wall makes a lot of sense. There were a lot of things very deliberately put in place early in this story. Jorah's father serving as Lord Commander on the watch was done for a reason, I think.
Others are right it depends on what happens to the wall and the others.
Yeah, I know, that's why I said it when I first suggested Jorah taking the black after the war "I had a thought - they've made a point of mentioning Jorah's dad the Lord Commander a couple of times this series. Thinking past the show and to the epilogue, I wonder if after things play out, however they play out, Jorah follows his father's footsteps by taking the black? It would be a fitting end to Jorah's story, I think. This assumes that at the end of the show there's night's watch and something to watch, of course."
gorgon wrote: Thing is, no one was actually trying to start a debate about that.
Boy did they miss two great dialogue possibilities - one with the scene with Jamie/Tyrion - I mean why have Jamie just cut him short as tyrion was going into a heartfelt and good sounding explanation. They really could have written a brilliant exchange there wrapping up past tensions and angst. More piss poor writing
And then at the end as they are freeing the lord of lights group. So many strong, engaging characters in the one place - it was begging for a real classic of an exchange. Instead we got a few lame quips and Johns view of "we're all in this together". So ho hum.
Granted they're under time pressure now to finish things out but very disappointed in both scenes. They could easily cut down Aryas ninja scene and the boat on the beach scene if they needed extra time.
Definitely a more placid episode than of late, was ok.
MDSW wrote: Now that the show is not really tied to the books, I can see we are in for a much more formulaic TV version and ending
Fine by me - the books are ever more turgid, self indulgent and badly written, in any case its not like there are many fantasy series where they have not explored characters and themes that GRM has.
Its not like a forumularic ending would be neccesarily bad.
So what does he do instead? Assume lordship of minor property somewhere? He's probably too old to start a new family, so does he just hang around waiting for his queen to call and ask him to open jars and get the internet working?
Even if Dany wins - there will be work to be done and quite likely battles/wars to be won. He might be more like a fantasy William Marshall, someone to help guide her children - cos she needs to have some or at least adopt some in order to avoid a future civil war. Lots of things to be done
The wall would make sense really only if he can;t take watching Dany have a family with some one else.
MDSW wrote: Now that the show is not really tied to the books, I can see we are in for a much more formulaic TV version and ending
Fine by me - the books are ever more turgid, self indulgent and badly written, in any case its not like there are many fantasy series where they have not explored characters and themes that GRM has.
Its not like a forumularic ending would be neccesarily bad.
Oh dear, you're for it now you plebian, GoT is literature dontcha know - anyone who doesn't enjoy reading a multi-paragraph description of grease running down a manly beard is obviously just an unsalvagable philistine.
He broke the laws of Westeros and was exiled. And he didn't just break any law, he became a slaver. For that he was stripped of all his titled and claims, and that's the reason he went across the narrow sea.
As much as he has done for Danny, and despite her feelings for him, he is a disgraced lord who was sentenced to death and has no legitimate claims to anything in Westeros. Sure, if Danny wins she can hand him any claim she wants to hand him. But despite everything they have been through, I don't see the Breaker of Chains handing land and titles to a former slaver.
Taking the Black would let him serve her in an important role, and a role that I imagine will have extreme prestige once the 7 Kingdoms know what the Night's Watch protects them from. And it would also allow him to atone for the crimes he committed in Westeros.
He already atoned for his actions against Danny, and he already turned down a pardon once, so restoring his name and honor by his own actions is the only thing left for him to do.
MDSW wrote: Now that the show is not really tied to the books, I can see we are in for a much more formulaic TV version and ending
Fine by me - the books are ever more turgid, self indulgent and badly written, in any case its not like there are many fantasy series where they have not explored characters and themes that GRM has.
Its not like a forumularic ending would be neccesarily bad.
Oh dear, you're for it now you plebian, GoT is literature dontcha know - anyone who doesn't enjoy reading a multi-paragraph description of grease running down a manly beard is obviously just an unsalvagable philistine.
It's a true statement for the latest books in the series.
GRRM is suffering from using the exact opposite approach that the show is using to solve one of the biggest problems in the story right now: The 7 Kingdoms are huge, key players are scattered all over the damn place, they all need to be in certain locations at certain times to do certain things.
GRRM is trying to bring them all together as organically as possible. If it takes Person A 4 weeks to travel wherever he is supposed to encounter Person B, and it only takes Person B 2 weeks to get there, then there has to be a reason for Person B to be 2 weeks late getting there so that they can just happen to accidentally meet. All this "there has to be a reason these people happen to be here at this time to do this thing while running into these other people" is the reason why the books are getting more convoluted. He is trying to bring the together without making it feel forced, and as a result it's just become a convoluted mess.
The show approach is just "He needs to talk to them, they need to destroy this fleet, they came from here and will fight here, scene and action". Instead of convoluted stories about traveling and the random ass things that happen during the travel and the intricacies of pie baking techniques, we end up with a cut screen and time jumping all over the place.
There is good reason to bitch about both approaches though, although I don't think I could do much better.
welshhoppo wrote: However, he also found out about the Wildfyre under Kings Landing, so maybe Jamie isn't happy about how that ended up.
I think it's very likely he's going to end up exactly like the last Pyromancer - on the wrong end of Jaime's sword.
Also, it's a good point that the Night's Watch isn't going to exist, most likely, at the end of the series, so that throws a serious kink into the idea that Jorah takes the black. Perhaps Daenarys will legitimize/absolve him, though it's a much better arc for him to have returned to honor via the black.
LunarSol wrote: That's why the time skip was really needed. Then the answer is "we picked up the story with both characters about 2 weeks out from their destination".
I think Martin knows that now, down deep. He thought he could pull it off, but then got older, much more distracted, and less interested in all the narrative drudgery that moving all those pieces around required. Now he's in one hell of a pickle.
Edit: From the little looks that Jorah gave Jon, I think there's a chance that he sacrifices himself to save Jon at some point, so that Daenerys can be with her true love even if it's not him.
That would be the sappy ending at least, so I think it's in play for the show moreso than the books.
welshhoppo wrote: However, he also found out about the Wildfyre under Kings Landing, so maybe Jamie isn't happy about how that ended up.
I think it's very likely he's going to end up exactly like the last Pyromancer - on the wrong end of Jaime's sword.
Also, it's a good point that the Night's Watch isn't going to exist, most likely, at the end of the series, so that throws a serious kink into the idea that Jorah takes the black. Perhaps Daenarys will legitimize/absolve him, though it's a much better arc for him to have returned to honor via the black.
I could see Jamie killing Qyburn and Cersei, the first one for turning his sister into the Mad Queen. And the latter for being the Mad Queen.
d-usa wrote: He broke the laws of Westeros and was exiled. And he didn't just break any law, he became a slaver. For that he was stripped of all his titled and claims, and that's the reason he went across the narrow
]As much as he has done for Danny, and despite her feelings for him, he is a disgraced lord who was sentenced to death and has no legitimate claims to anything in Westeros. Sure, if Danny wins she can hand him any claim she wants to hand him. But despite everything they have been through, I don't see the Breaker of Chains handing land and titles to a former slaver.
Taking the Black would let him serve her in an important role, and a role that I imagine will have extreme prestige once the 7 Kingdoms know what the Night's Watch protects them from. And it would also allow him to atone for the crimes he committed in Westeros.
He already atoned for his actions against Danny, and he already turned down a pardon once, so restoring his name and honor by his own actions is the only thing left for him to do.
Arya has killed various people
Tyron killed his father - he is now Hand of the Queen,
The Dothraki are slavers - something Dany seems to ignore - the Ironborn are supposed to stop, she said nothing about the Dothraki doing so.... enforcing that would likely break their culture.
The Sand snakes killed their king and other royals - Dany made them allies.
Cersei blew up the head of the Church and half the nobility - no one really cares anymore.
Before the events of the show - the Mountain slaughtered royal children and raped and killed the wife of the heir to the throne - his side won so no one cares. If Dany wins - no one will care about what Jorah did in the past - except, maybe Jorah . What Jorah did or did not do will mean precisely nothing to anyone who surives the war between the present claiments to the throne or against the dead.
It might matter to him but I think he feels now that he has atoned fully. If she asks him to stay and serve her - thats what he is going to do.
IF the Night Watch remians anything like it is now - I can see Jamie becoming one if his sister (and their child are dead)
It's a true statement for the latest books in the series.
GRRM is suffering from using the exact opposite approach that the show is using to solve one of the biggest problems in the story right now: The 7 Kingdoms are huge, key players are scattered all over the damn place, they all need to be in certain locations at certain times to do certain things.
GRRM is trying to bring them all together as organically as possible. If it takes Person A 4 weeks to travel wherever he is supposed to encounter Person B, and it only takes Person B 2 weeks to get there, then there has to be a reason for Person B to be 2 weeks late getting there so that they can just happen to accidentally meet. All this "there has to be a reason these people happen to be here at this time to do this thing while running into these other people" is the reason why the books are getting more convoluted. He is trying to bring the together without making it feel forced, and as a result it's just become a convoluted mess.
The show approach is just "He needs to talk to them, they need to destroy this fleet, they came from here and will fight here, scene and action". Instead of convoluted stories about traveling and the random ass things that happen during the travel and the intricacies of pie baking techniques, we end up with a cut screen and time jumping all over the place.
There is good reason to bitch about both approaches though, although I don't think I could do much better.
Well GRm also goes out of his way to make characters not meet - eg Tyrion and Dany in Meerem, various people in the North etc -I honestly think he is happier for us to potter around the world with him and his fav characters - there does not seem to be any editorial control over what he writes and no real deadlines so he just does what appeals to him. Which is a nice place to be if you are a writter who does not really have a way (or indeed inlcination) to end the story.
Episode 6 was leaked by both HBO Spain and I believe HBO Nordic (?) yesterday. That's 2 leaked episodes in 3 weeks to go along with scripts that leaked back in January (I think that long ago) that so far have proven to be almost 100% accurate.
The writing is terrible, just like the previous episodes. I think fan fiction would be the best description. There's really no why as to events that happen outside of because it's expected/would be cool. Travel times are even more absurd than the magical teleporting Varys of season 6.
I think that after a year of no Game of Thrones season 7 will be reviewed much more critically. Right now most viewers are all aboard the hype train.
Yeah. I've not really minded a more..."concise" approach in the first half of the season, but Ep6 was just kinda ridiculous. Like it actually took me out of the experience of watching because I kept thinking "wait, where with the who now?".
Small request as someone who has managed to avoid all leaks: can we be sure to use spoiler tags for the upcoming episode until after it officially airs?
trexmeyer wrote: I think that after a year of no Game of Thrones season 7 will be reviewed much more critically. Right now most viewers are all aboard the hype train.
I dunno. I feel like critics have assigned it to the 'brain candy' category, and it's tasty enough for brain candy. And I think a lot of the audience likes the firey 'splosions and OMG BIG STUFF HAPPENING.
It's just kind of a shame where things are at with both the books and the show. Martin is stuck like Br'er Rabbit fighting the tar baby. And the showrunners clearly can't maintain the quality of early seasons without Martin to guide them, and are under pressure to wrap things up before these actors start moving on with their careers.
I think Season 7 is great so far. It's very fast, almost rushed, because they've only got so many hours left and they're not wasting it on filler. I find that refreshing.
The most recent (leaked) episode was fantastic. A bit unrealistic finding a frozen Optimus Prime (though thawing him out with the flaming swords made sense), but otherwise all good.
I think Season 7 is great so far. It's very fast, almost rushed, because they've only got so many hours left and they're not wasting it on filler. I find that refreshing.
The most recent (leaked) episode was fantastic. A bit unrealistic finding a frozen Optimus Prime (though thawing him out with the flaming swords made sense), but otherwise all good.
You can't really zombify robots so he should prove to be a powerful asset for team Danny.
d-usa wrote: Small request as someone who has managed to avoid all leaks: can we be sure to use spoiler tags for the upcoming episode until after it officially airs?
Thanks, I would second this.
Love reading the comments of others on the show, but am put off the thread by the chance I might accidentally see who is for the chop at the end of this series..
AduroT wrote: They showed some passage of time. Not a huge amount of it, but it wasn't Super instant.
Per request, Ep6 spoilers tagged:
Spoiler:
I mean technically that's true, but even that didn't make any sense. The initial scenes don't specify but the implication surely must be that they trekked at least several days from the Wall before reaching the area with the ice lake(otherwise the army of the dead is literally just a few hours from the Wall), so even if Gendry ran at full-tilt the whole way, which is literally impossible, it would still be a couple of days for him to reach Eastwatch. Then another day or so for a message to reach Dany and her to fly up to Jon's group. Even if we assume they were only a brisk half-day jog from Eastwatch it would still be well over 24 hours before Dany could plausibly get to them, and there's no way it would take that long for the lake to re-freeze. I mean gak, aren't the White Walkers basically "ice mages"? Why didn't one of them just dip a toe in the lake and insta-freeze it.
The whole thing smacks of the writers coming up with a cool ice lake standoff scene to justify Dany coming north so one of her dragons can get zombified, then hacking together a series of events to facilitate that scene whether they particularly made sense or not.
Also kind of disappointing that they "used up" Uncle Benjin on a short deus ex machina scene.
Before I was fairly OK with this season because they were essentially just skipping the travel sections, but now they're starting to go all timey-wimey and have major characters practically teleport around Westeros.
I think Season 7 is great so far. It's very fast, almost rushed, because they've only got so many hours left and they're not wasting it on filler. I find that refreshing.
The most recent (leaked) episode was fantastic. A bit unrealistic finding a frozen Optimus Prime (though thawing him out with the flaming swords made sense), but otherwise all good.
For someone that is usually pretty critical of nonsense (at least IIRC) I'm surprised you're giving this season a pass.
The show is fast approaching Hobbit Trilogy levels of failure in terms of having a completely inane story with snappy visuals. Well, I doubt GoT CGI will ever be as bad as some of the Hobbit.
It's frustrating to me to see a story once rooted in realism to be written this poorly. We've gone from real world repercussions to
Spoiler:
Jon can't die, only MCs can kill MCs, and Westeros has shrunk to 1/10 it's original size...
My problem with the Death army is that I don't feell... fear. Maybe is because they are just a bunch of savage zombies covered in rufs... maybe is because they don't appear to be as many, or because their King is the norwegian cousin of Darth Maul.
You see the Wrath of the Lich King cinematic of World of Warcraft, and you see the POWER of that army of death. It gives you respect, the fell of "Yeah, this is gonna be very bad". But this one? Is like... yeah they are a problem but not "We are gonna wipe all life in westeros" problem.
GoT for me is like this, G R R Martins writing got me hooked ie the first few seasons and now I am here just for the ending. If the show started off with this quality of writing and consistency I probably wouldnt have stuck around. It was the clever twists and turns that you DIDNT see coming that made me love the show, the way GoT killed characters we loved kept me on edge everytime my beloved characters were in danger I think this could be it only to be relievwd at the last moment.
Now we have Jon Snow whom should have stayed dead in my opinion. S7 E07 would have played out a lot differently a few seasons ago. Not to mention fast travel nonsense and the plotlines that you can see from a mile away.
I'm happy that others think the same about the lack of credibilty and the teleportation of the main characters. I'm really disappointed with this season, they have lost the "soul" of GoT I think. It is still entertaining, however...
welshhoppo wrote: It's quite obvious that someone has developed fast travel for the main characters to use.... It's the only way.
Or the stories aren't always being told concurrently and large swathes of time where nothing happens are just being skipped?
Nah, that sounds too obvious.
I'm normally the kind of person who laughs when "New York" appears whilst the camara is flying over New York. Maybe GoT could benefit from this with a date stamp.
I'm normally the kind of person who laughs when "New York" appears whilst the camara is flying over New York. Maybe GoT could benefit from this with a date stamp.
Or people could just let it all go since its totally irrelevant to telling the overall story.
They've made a few nods to this, like people talking about things happening in past seasons being 'years ago' (in the last episode), for example, and you honestly don't need to do anything else besides that. Only the tiny fraction of super-nerds even cares about that stuff, and those that do aren't even really considering how terrible it would be for the story, at this point, to keep being told at the same pace it was in the early seasons.
I mean, part of me would love for GoT to go on for like 14 seasons to get to the end of the story with the 'proper amount of travel time being shown' at all times because I do love the show, but the part of me that understands good storytelling and compelling television knows that this would be a terrible, terrible idea. There's a reason that GRRM is completely mired in releasing his next book. He may never actually do it, and if he does, he almost certainly will never get around to any books after that because he is completely bogged down by the details to the point where he literally cannot get the story to start resolving itself in any meaningful way without writing GIGANTIC books filled with tons of crap we don't care about (along with the stuff we do care about).
So for all the people freaking out about characters 'fast traveling', just take a chill pill and think about it:
The timeline of each location have been decoupled from each other, and large swathes of time where nothing important happens have simply not been shown. So when you see one scene in Kings Landing and the next scene is in Dragonstone, they aren't necessarily happening at the same time (or anywhere near the same time as each other) AND there could have been any number of days, weeks or months that occurred in between those two scenes that simply was omitted because nothing exciting happened during that period.
The first 1-5 seasons or so were set-up for the world. It took long swathes of time to build the characters we now know and love. But we're getting to the end of the tale, to a grand conclusion that involves giant armies, invading white walkers and dragons. At this point, do you really want to wait whole seasons for characters to move from Kings Landing to the Wall (for example), for no other reason than just to match the pace of the earlier seasons? Because there is literally no point in doing so. TV shows and movies regularly omit large chunks of time (and don't always tell you they're doing that up front with an onscreen graphic) and most audiences can understand that and still enjoy the story.
I'm normally the kind of person who laughs when "New York" appears whilst the camara is flying over New York. Maybe GoT could benefit from this with a date stamp.
Or people could just let it all go since its totally irrelevant to telling the overall story.
They've made a few nods to this, like people talking about things happening in past seasons being 'years ago' (in the last episode), for example, and you honestly don't need to do anything else besides that. Only the tiny fraction of super-nerds even cares about that stuff, and those that do aren't even really considering how terrible it would be for the story, at this point, to keep being told at the same pace it was in the early seasons.
I mean, part of me would love for GoT to go on for like 14 seasons to get to the end of the story with the 'proper amount of travel time being shown' at all times because I do love the show, but the part of me that understands good storytelling and compelling television knows that this would be a terrible, terrible idea. There's a reason that GRRM is completely mired in releasing his next book. He may never actually do it, and if he does, he almost certainly will never get around to any books after that because he is completely bogged down by the details to the point where he literally cannot get the story to start resolving itself in any meaningful way without writing GIGANTIC books filled with tons of crap we don't care about (along with the stuff we do care about).
So for all the people freaking out about characters 'fast traveling', just take a chill pill and think about it:
The timeline of each location have been decoupled from each other, and large swathes of time where nothing important happens have simply not been shown. So when you see one scene in Kings Landing and the next scene is in Dragonstone, they aren't necessarily happening at the same time (or anywhere near the same time as each other) AND there could have been any number of days, weeks or months that occurred in between those two scenes that simply was omitted because nothing exciting happened during that period.
The first 1-5 seasons or so were set-up for the world. It took long swathes of time to build the characters we now know and love. But we're getting to the end of the tale, to a grand conclusion that involves giant armies, invading white walkers and dragons. At this point, do you really want to wait whole seasons for characters to move from Kings Landing to the Wall (for example), for no other reason than just to match the pace of the earlier seasons? Because there is literally no point in doing so. TV shows and movies regularly omit large chunks of time (and don't always tell you they're doing that up front with an onscreen graphic) and most audiences can understand that and still enjoy the story.
That doesn't fly chief, we're not talking about them "skipping the dull bits"(which plenty of folk would argue weren't actually dull - I think the show up until recently had a decent balance between the turgid pacing of the books and Game of Teleportation as we're getting now), we're talking about them showing a sequence of events that makes no sense when you think about the distances and timescales involved for even a minute.
To continue, we go Ep6 spoileriffic:
Spoiler:
Even if we assume everything happened as-was - they barely got out of sight of the Wall, and they merely skipped travel - it still would have taken at least a day or two from the point Gendry runs off to the point Dany shows up. It took nearly two days, in the frozen north in winter, while in the presence of people who can literally control winter weather for the lake to refreeze? If you take the various "trekking" sections in the opening as implying a longer period of travel which is how those scene breaks are normally used in GoT, rather than a series of completely sequential and entirely literal periods of time interrupted by "Meanwhile, in Winterfell..." asides, the timeline becomes even more ridiculous since it would have taken several days for Dany to arrive - nevermind that it's even less plausible for the lake to have taken that long to refreeze, how did they survive? Days, trapped on a small island, totally exposed to the elements, without fire or very many supplies by the look of them, surrounded by a zombie horde.
Now, you can make a good movie or show that falls apart under the weight of its own fridge logic, but GoT wasn't such a show until very recently and I don't think it's as unreasonable as you are trying to imply that people expect better from a show that's been giving them better for six seasons prior to this one.
And it's not even like people are arguing they can't or even shouldn't pick up the pace a little, just that their execution has been pretty garbage.
This isn't snobbery, or book-nerds, or continuity-nerds getting all bunched up over nothing, it's the show's creative team trying to shift gears from detailed and carefully-plotted epic saga to rip-roarin' no-thinkin' fantasy adventure and doing a bad job of it.
Irishpeacockz wrote: GoT for me is like this, G R R Martins writing got me hooked ie the first few seasons and now I am here just for the ending. If the show started off with this quality of writing and consistency I probably wouldnt have stuck around. It was the clever twists and turns that you DIDNT see coming that made me love the show, the way GoT killed characters we loved kept me on edge everytime my beloved characters were in danger I think this could be it only to be relievwd at the last moment.
Now we have Jon Snow whom should have stayed dead in my opinion. S7 E07 would have played out a lot differently a few seasons ago. Not to mention fast travel nonsense and the plotlines that you can see from a mile away.
It's the clever characters that have suffered most. Tyrion is the best example. The showrunners just don't know how to write for him. There also doesn't seem to be much depth or cleverness left in Littlefinger's and Varys's scheming.
The funny thing is that those guys did an EXCELLENT job adapting the early material. That isn't an easy thing. But clearly they work much, much better with the books in front of them instead of some general framework that Martin shared with them.
Regarding Jon Snow though...he's going to come back in the books too, that wasn't a TV invention. The whole thing is his story more than anyone else's.
I can digest the slight teleportation, as it is certainly not uncommon, although some is over the top. I think most everyone is comparing the previous seasons with a near proximate timeline and snail's pace story progression. We are now in the usual cinematic/TV time progression where a lot has to happen in a finite amount of air time left.
Believe me, there have been some incredibly bonehead character and army movements and appearances where you go, "whaaaa???" I do not necessarily like it, but I can live with it.
It's the clever characters that have suffered most. Tyrion is the best example. The showrunners just don't know how to write for him. There also doesn't seem to be much depth or cleverness left in Littlefinger's and Varys's scheming.
I agree. The time skips are simply a question of style; I personally don't love it but there is a rationale.
What I miss is the sense that there's a lot of backstory - where, for instance, we find how Varys took years to wreak his revenge on the magician (and wreaks it still). It's something we were led up to, episode via episode. Now, everything is a little linear and not as multilayered. The characters seem more to be there to move the pieces of plot around.
I do hope we get to see hubris operate, in the classic sense. For instance, Cersei destroying the Tyrells to obtain their gold - when we all know, that if we owe a bank billions, they have to look after us, but if we owe them thousands, they are likely to cut us off at the knees. I'd love to see Mark Gattis's character stitch her up, in the most cynical, financially-efficient manner - as that would certainly be true to life.
Honestly it does kind of feel like they had actually wrote a 10 episode season but when they went to HBO they were told flat out their budget wasn't going to get any bigger. As a result they are making due as best they can.
Its does suck that things are rushing a bit as I would much rather have more time in this world then less. At the same time however I would rather they get to the point instead of keeping it going past the point where people care.
Irishpeacockz wrote: GoT for me is like this, G R R Martins writing got me hooked ie the first few seasons and now I am here just for the ending. If the show started off with this quality of writing and consistency I probably wouldnt have stuck around. It was the clever twists and turns that you DIDNT see coming that made me love the show, the way GoT killed characters we loved kept me on edge everytime my beloved characters were in danger I think this could be it only to be relievwd at the last moment.
Now we have Jon Snow whom should have stayed dead in my opinion. S7 E07 would have played out a lot differently a few seasons ago. Not to mention fast travel nonsense and the plotlines that you can see from a mile away.
It's the clever characters that have suffered most. Tyrion is the best example. The showrunners just don't know how to write for him. There also doesn't seem to be much depth or cleverness left in Littlefinger's and Varys's scheming.
The funny thing is that those guys did an EXCELLENT job adapting the early material. That isn't an easy thing. But clearly they work much, much better with the books in front of them instead of some general framework that Martin shared with them.
Regarding Jon Snow though...he's going to come back in the books too, that wasn't a TV invention. The whole thing is his story more than anyone else's.
They have limited time but I would say the Tyrion and Varys stuff has been great this season - limited in terms of screen time but all well crafted. The travel is fine - I don;t have nay issue with it - Euron was brought into block Dany's inevetiable victory from happening in epsiode one and I like him and otherwise we might have had to have more Sam or other wastes of space.
Re Jon Snow - I wuld love for him to go North of the Wall and next be seen in the Army of the Dead but we all know that not happening in book or Show.
I got the impression some of the worst stuff like Dorn was crowbarred into the plot to please GRm and no one was that interested in them form the show's point of view - hence they are dire.
On the other hand many characters have evolved far better and beyond the books.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think we're getting too hung up on 'travel times'. This couldn't be less important to the show.
Agreed.
It's like people can't understand how you want/need the pace of a show like this to quicken as it nears its conclusion...
Spoiler:
I don't see how the Raven-Dragon flight time isn't a glaring problem. It's one of the worst plot holes in pop media I've ever seen.
The entire season could've been better written.
Spoiler:
The entire need to capture a Wight plan could've simply been done through Jon and Tyrion communicating via raven as Dany tries to fight Cersei. Beric and Co show up and agree to help Jon provide proof to the south. They capture a straggler or someone from a side force or something along those lines thanks to Bran's Greensight.
I don't see how the Raven-Dragon flight time isn't a glaring problem. It's one of the worst plot holes in pop media I've ever seen.
Then you mustn't see many things with plot holes, because this isn't a plot hole. It's a pacing issue. They're rushing.
Now it's fine if you don't like them rushing, but for me I just don't care. Not 7 Seasons in. This show has to end, and has spent so long spinning its wheels (especially with Dany, who spent an entire season looking for her stolen dragons and 6 years not coming to Westeros) that if it dragged it out any longer people would just get annoyed (we'd get another Season 5, and no one wants that).
And I know that if this season was 10 episodes and there were three "travelling around" episodes, or if the action was more spread out, giving us half action/half travelling around episodes, there'd be people here screaming about "filler" and how the "boring stuff" between the actions scenes is taking away from the action.
There is such a thing as making something all pay-off so that it becomes one giant relentless climax (the third Hobbit film might be the best example of this in recent times), but Game of Thrones is no where near Battle of Five Armies.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think we're getting too hung up on 'travel times'. This couldn't be less important to the show.
Agreed.
It's like people can't understand how you want/need the pace of a show like this to quicken as it nears its conclusion...
The whole reason I watch Game of Thrones is not for the dragons, not for the zombies, and not for the boobies, but to see people crossing the world in mundane ways at a glacial pace.
Ouze wrote: The whole reason I watch Game of Thrones is not for the dragons, not for the zombies, and not for the boobies, but to see people crossing the world in mundane ways at a glacial pace.
If the crew crossing the world are Thoros of Myr, Jorah Mormont, The Hound, Gendry, Beric Donderion(sp?), Tormund Giantsbane, Jon Snow and as many redshirts- I mean Wildling spearmen as needed to die to show how impossible the odds are, sign me up for a few more episodes of that!
Also, I blame Jon Snow for the dragon dying and almost getting another one killed. He went full Leroy Jenkins to up his K: D ratio and gave the Night King plenty of time to leisurely stroll up, strike a great javelin throwing pose, sight up his target and kill it while Jon Snow is killing a handful of zombies from a horde of thousands. I mean if he was jacking up the actual White Walker dudes instead, it might have been more meaningful.
What they Really needed was the moment Danny showed up and started straffing fire unopposed from the sky everyone should have pointed at the White Walkers and yelled Those Guys! Blast Those Guys!
AduroT wrote: What they Really needed was the moment Danny showed up and started straffing fire unopposed from the sky everyone should have pointed at the White Walkers and yelled Those Guys! Blast Those Guys!
I dunno, fire didnt seem to bother the Night King one bit. I mean he walked through a bunch of fire and it simply went out. As far as characters dying and such.....
Spoiler:
Tormund should have died. I love his character and literally said oh no! Out loud. Then he suddenly was saved from a clearly unsaveable death......I dunno guys..... I usually ignore dumb shtuff to enjoy a movie or show but the bad writting is even getting on my nerves
So, the Blue Eyes Wight Dragon, fire breath still? Or will it now have ice breath? Maybe the whole reason the dead have been taking their time coming south is they can't cross the wall because it's magic is too strong yet, and now they can use the dragon to get thru?
I'm beginning to get the feeling that the weave of the wider narrative is unravelling of late. Stuff happening in King's Landing isn't affecting Winterfell. Stuff in Winterfell isn't really affecting stuff North of the Wall.
I mean in previous seasons, it usually felt like the action in one area was going to ripple off and affect somewhere else. But the past couple of episodes has made it all feel a little fractured.
It's likely just me, and hopefully it'll be tied back together in the next episode, but I am worried it's all fraying into a mess.
I enjoyed the episode a lot, and the timing didn't bother me one bit. Maybe they weren't too far past the wall, like a few hour's hike? They mentioned in an earlier episode when Dani came back from BBQing the lannisters that it didn't take too long, maybe Westeros isn't a very big country? Either way, who cares? We got to see another kickass dragon battle. Hoping for many more!
I also like where the story is going. Feels like once we got to the end of what's in the books we can get on with the story, like the first 5 seasons where it was like a "Cool stuff is coming I swear" carrot on a stick the whole time. Well now the cool stuff is finally here
I was certainly expecting worse on the timing. At the least they spent the night out on the lake waiting for help. The clear day/night shift was more than we've gotten lately in terms of pacing. Had Gendry made it back to the wall in the daylight it would have been better, but at least a good half day appears to have passed which... probably isn't nearly enough.
Ultimately the pacing is a little problematic. In prior seasons they would have ended the episode on the rock and resolved it the next episode with checks in to the other side stories in the meantime. This is missed certainly, though some of it is definitely a result of plots converging and there being fewer side plots to follow period.
It's also just rushed, though given the choice I'll gladly take season 7 of the aimless plodding of season 5/book 4.
I look forward to some Night King/Viserion vs Dany/Drogon aerial combat. It is unfortunate that we lost Viserion, it has given the Night King more than enough firepower to blast the wall and push to Winterfell. I also loved the massive zombie bear. That was a pretty intense scene. They did do a better job of pacing the whole island bit by showing the day/night between the scenes.
Did anybody find it odd/extremely stupid that as soon as The Hound realized he could easily break the ice of the lake with the massive hammer he had, he discards it and starts stabbing people? Just break more ice, the freezing lake clearly slows them down.
Run to the Wall and send a Raven - Really! No you probbaly donl;t know the way, yeah we took about a week to wonder aimlessly in the snow and yeah the Raven wikll take afew weeks to reach her - but thats the plan
AduroT wrote: So, the Blue Eyes Wight Dragon, fire breath still? Or will it now have ice breath? Maybe the whole reason the dead have been taking their time coming south is they can't cross the wall because it's magic is too strong yet, and now they can use the dragon to get thru?
I read somewhere that GRRM said in some interview that the wights are ice wights but people like Beric Dondarrion (and now also Jon Snow) who are brought back to life via fire magic are fire wights, as in these are kinda opposites. This could mean that the dragon should have a hard time with fire breathing. And the wall supposedly also has magic protecting it so undead can't cross it (on their own) but Bran got touched by the Night King and that dissolved the magic protection of the cave he was in. Later Edd Tollett let him through the wall (and he probably still has the mark of the Night King) which could/should have weakened or destroyed the walls protection spells (and it would fit Edd with his pessimistic worldview to accidentally and unintentionally bring down the wall's defences).
AduroT wrote: So, the Blue Eyes Wight Dragon, fire breath still? Or will it now have ice breath? Maybe the whole reason the dead have been taking their time coming south is they can't cross the wall because it's magic is too strong yet, and now they can use the dragon to get thru?
I read somewhere that GRRM said in some interview that the wights are ice wights but people like Beric Dondarrion (and now also Jon Snow) who are brought back to life via fire magic are fire wights, as in these are kinda opposites. This could mean that the dragon should have a hard time with fire breathing. And the wall supposedly also has magic protecting it so undead can't cross it (on their own) but Bran got touched by the Night King and that dissolved the magic protection of the cave he was in. Later Edd Tollett let him through the wall (and he probably still has the mark of the Night King) which could/should have weakened or destroyed the walls protection spells (and it would fit Edd with his pessimistic worldview to accidentally and unintentionally bring down the wall's defences).
I didn't have too many issues with the fast travel myself. I didn't get the impression that they had been north of the wall that long. Also don't forgot that they weren't just walking in a straight line away from the wall, they were searching for the army of the dead.
Raven's also fly pretty damn fast. Racing pigeons will fly across England in a matter of hours. I assume a giant dragon might be a little nippy as well for the return trip.
We know they spent the night at least on that rock in the middle of the lake, not hard to image A day past at least.
As H.B.M.C says they have increased the pacing of the show. Half an episode catching up with Sam's gently stroll to wherever he's going in-between wouldn't have improved anything,
In far more important matters, the episode had some great moments. The dialogue between the group north of the wall was pretty great. Though I do wish one of them had asked how those flaming swords worked.
The ayra / sansa plot is pissing me off a bit. It has the frozen plot hole built in (I have a 2 year old daughter, I have seen frozen too many Times) but basically if the sisters just had an honest chat and a full catch up about everything they have been through then there wouldn't be an issue.
Also from the moment jon falls in the lake I knew coldhands was gona save him. But why did he have to die. I feel we never really got to learn anything about his character, like the really important detail of him being dead but not under the night kings control. How did that happen?
Looking forward to the next episode, we are basically going to have ever major character sat in a room together. I doubt there'll just have a bit of a chin wag and that will be it.
They spend long enough on that rock to let the ice freeze over with enough strength to support an army again. I felt like that was a good enough hint to suggest "been there quite a while, longer than a couple hours".
d-usa wrote: Considering there are no cell phones, running to the nearest place with ravens is actually the only thing you can do.
Raven that needs to travel half a Continent in a few hours - I didn't mind the fast travel up till now but that was awful.
Then that prat snow
Spoiler:
decides to fail about long enough to get a Dragon killed rather than bugging out
- is there anything he does well except whine.
The only good things about the episode where the dialogue on the trip and the Sansa/ Arya chat
Does jon snow whine more
Or cersai Lanier drink more wine...?
Since Jon Snow didn't actually do any whining, I'm not sure what he has to do to stop people from whining about his whining.
A-hem.
The travel time was silly, but it's not my complaint about where the show has gone. It's perfectly good to maybe even great brain candy, but that's not what the show used to be. It's like I'm watching a spinoff with the same characters but different pace, tone and style. Or something. *shrug*
Will be interesting to see if GRRM goes the zombie ice dragon route. It feels more like a showrunner crowdpleasing move.
Edit: I've avoided the spoilers for this season (although this seems like a season 8 development anyway), but last episode seemed to suggest rather strongly that Jon will be riding Drogon down the road. I don't know how much they're following Martin on this, but IIRC, dragons aren't necessarily friendly to Targaryens. So that scene wasn't just about recognition, but a liking or bond forming. IMO.
I dunno, I mean, I remember back when I first read the books, I remember thinking.
"Yeah, sure, naming one of your dragons after your ahole brother that sold you into slavery isn't going to turn round and bite you in the bum at all. Nope, not in any way at all."
I'm not gonna pretend I would have predicted "zombie ice dragon" being the way that it would happen though.
This is definitely feeling like the most rapid and cobbled together season so far. There have been some good and bad moments. The quick travel thing is a bit dodgy but hopefully the next season has a larger budget and thus can have more than 7 episodes so they don't have to rush through any side stories or development for the minor characters. I guess the next episode is going to be the real test as to whether or not this season is going to conclude in any satisfactory way.
I thought it was overall a great episode. They did (quite obviously) totally throw out the concept of even possibly 'real' travel time (there's just no way, and there's not even a case to be made for time being skipped), but honestly I'm okay with that because I realize it just really isn't important at this stage of the story and prefer things to build nicely to a crescendo rather than be stuck plodding along waiting for all the events to properly align with 'realistic' travel time built in.
However, I *did* feel that this particular episode was a bit rushed...its the first time I felt being limited to 7 episodes to work with this season seriously impacted the beats of the storytelling.
But, whatever it did take to get all the players together for that that final scene was ultimately worth it, IMHO, because it was an absolutely amazing sequence. If you haven't watched the behind the scenes of how they made that scene yet, you should really watch it:
They really have been pulling off some truly epic filmmaking, on budgets that don't come close to what they spend on major blockbusters.
For example, in season 6, they spent $10 million per episode...so a 2 hour block was $20 million, compared to $150-$180 million routinely spent on blockbuster movies with roughly the same running time.
For season 7, they cut down the episode count to 7 (from 10 episodes in season 6), which means if their budget remained flat for season 7 (which it reportedly did), they're now spending around $15 million per episode. That's still only $30 million for 2 hours, which is amazing considering the quality of effects they're now putting out.
Thargrim wrote: This is definitely feeling like the most rapid and cobbled together season so far. There have been some good and bad moments. The quick travel thing is a bit dodgy but hopefully the next season has a larger budget and thus can have more than 7 episodes so they don't have to rush through any side stories or development for the minor characters. I guess the next episode is going to be the real test as to whether or not this season is going to conclude in any satisfactory way.
Nope, season 8 is only 6 episodes.
You see, in order to have truly amazing special effects, they have to cut down the number of episodes they'll have so that they have the money to pay for those efx...that's just the reality of the business.
We can expect season 8 to have truly epic visuals and set pieces, but it will not have a lot of episodes.
Man, lots of cool stuff, but the writing, timing, quick travel, continuity and dialog is, well, starting to *really* feel like they've lost the guiding hand of Martin. Stuff that previously would have been half the season is all getting crammed into a single episode or stuff just isn't flowing right.
John coming out of a frozen lake and being apparently bone dry seconds later when Benjin shows up, Dragons showing up seemingly in just hours after Gendry runs off, increasingly obvious foreshadowing, etc ad nauseum.
It really feels like they're cramming stuff to cut the number of episodes they have to produce and it's starting to show badly in an increasingly erratic narrative. Hoping they shape it up here.
Rewatched the ep, and the perfect example of the rushed nature of the story right now is Jon and Benjen/Coldhands. Their reunion deserved to breathe, because those characters were close and shared some unique history. Instead we got a few seconds and about 3 exchanged lines. In a better handled version of this season, Benjen escorts Jon to the Wall and they talk on the way.
"There's no time" indeed.
I really have to assume that the show runners have some outside pressures on them, probably involving actors and their contracts and availability. Because there's no way you reunite Jon and Benjen and do that if you have ANY sense as a storyteller.
It felt like an episode in three parts. There was the march beyond the wall, where we got to enjoy interactions between all these great characters that we hadn't seen share screen time before. Those parts were well done and really good fun. If they wanted a spin off that was just the Hound and Tormund wandering around bickering I would watch that show forever.
The second part was the intrigue at Winterfell. I like Arya and Sansa, but man am I sick of Littlefinger and the way the story is contrived to make people entertain his obvious cons. It's doubly annoying here because both Arya and Sansa are supposed to have come through so much hardship and manipulation to come out the other side hardened and wise, but they get written down to a level where Littlefinger's bs still works.
The last part then was the big setpiece ending. The production of the scene was excellent, and just plain amazing for tv, and the story they constructed for the fight was effect - capturing the wight, trapped by the undead, saved by Danaerys was well constructed. It was let down by the plot contrivance that got the dragons to the scene in time, though.
Still that's probably a minor nitpick, though. Honestly I was more bothered by Benjin's contrived sacrifice, meaning his story was hinted at for 5 years, only to really amount to nothing much at all.
I'm a bit surprised at the complaints about how some characters have become main characters who cannot die. This was always the case. It's just Martin hid who the main characters were in the first couple of seasons. It was always a bit of a con that anyone could die at any time, because there was always key characters with key plot arcs that were going to play out. Anyone who thought because they killed Ned and Rob then maybe Jon or Tyrion might be next was falling for a bait and switch.
That said, I was surprised Tormund didn't die. Obviously Jon, Jorah and the Hound weren't going to die, they're key characters with plots still to be played out. I also feel they're got something planned for Beric, though I don't know what. It would have been really cheap to kill Gendry the episode after bringing him back, so that left Tormund and Thoros as the ones who were gonna die. The show did pull its punches a little by only killing one of those two. I really like Tormund so I wasn't disappointed that he's still around to be awesome, but much like when Bran survived the dragon attack, it does add a bit of a safety rails element to the action.
Though I guess they did kill a dragon. I didn't see that coming.
Tamereth wrote: Also from the moment jon falls in the lake I knew coldhands was gona save him. But why did he have to die. I feel we never really got to learn anything about his character, like the really important detail of him being dead but not under the night kings control. How did that happen?
He was saved by the Children of the Forest, who used dragonglass to save him from turning in to a wight. The whole story did seem to go nowhere though. After having Benjin disappear beyond the wall, have the surprise that he was still alive, albeit kind of half undead, for him to turn up out of nowhere to offer himself in a pointless sacrifice - it was a weirdly anti-climactic story that had been lurking in the background for ages, promising a payoff the show never even attempted.
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Thargrim wrote: This is definitely feeling like the most rapid and cobbled together season so far. There have been some good and bad moments. The quick travel thing is a bit dodgy but hopefully the next season has a larger budget and thus can have more than 7 episodes so they don't have to rush through any side stories or development for the minor characters.
There's only 6 episodes in the last season, although some of them are meant to be much longer than the episodes we've had this season.
It isn't really budget limits that's reduced the season's running length. The action setpieces this season have been huge and crazy expensive for TV. Really what's been cut is the cheaper stuff, the dialogue. So the reduction in run times and the timewarps that's produced have probably mostly been a creative decision - they're trying to speed things up as they move to the end. Pace brings drama, and all that.
That said, a few cable shows have opted for two half seasons to finish their run. Mad Men did the same thing - the last two seasons were half length. There might be some TV production reason behind it.
Thargrim wrote: ... hopefully the next season has a larger budget and thus can have more than 7 episodes...
1. This season didn't have a smaller budget.
2. Next season has 6 episodes.
I guess cause there is less pre written content for them to cover...and more CGI=high costs plus larger battles. I just hope that I haven't been watching this show for the past several years to get a boned conclusion. I'm sure it'll be plenty epic from a visual point, just hoping it isn't hollow.
Pretty sure it's down to Friends syndrome. Show is popular, it would be tantamount to show suicide to replace any of the big names, big names can command a bigger fee, thus meaning less episodes per dollar.
BaconCatBug wrote: Pretty sure it's down to Friends syndrome. Show is popular, it would be tantamount to show suicide to replace any of the big names, big names can command a bigger fee, thus meaning less episodes per dollar.
Plus with plot demands, less episodes, and more big battles coming the room for the needed character depevelopment for a new group is not there.
When you have 10, and some built up over seasons it's fine to kill n dd new.
Adding new in a busy 7 episodes... Not so easy.
Yet alone 6. And you have to compete with multi season favorites and dragons.
It felt like an episode in three parts. There was the march beyond the wall, where we got to enjoy interactions between all these great characters that we hadn't seen share screen time before. Those parts were well done and really good fun. If they wanted a spin off that was just the Hound and Tormund wandering around bickering I would watch that show forever.
It might have been written that way - agreed this was well done, nice dialogue, seriously give Tromund more screen time - he is great.
The second part was the intrigue at Winterfell. I like Arya and Sansa, but man am I sick of Littlefinger and the way the story is contrived to make people entertain his obvious cons. It's doubly annoying here because both Arya and Sansa are supposed to have come through so much hardship and manipulation to come out the other side hardened and wise, but they get written down to a level where Littlefinger's bs still works.
Again agreed, Arya and Sansa was good and I like the fact that whilst they love eahc other as sisters the also just plain don't like each other and never have - siblings. Littlefinger will probably turn out to a Faceless Man himself given GRM's love of that rather dull plotline in the books
The last part then was the big setpiece ending. The production of the scene was excellent, and just plain amazing for tv, and the story they constructed for the fight was effect - capturing the wight, trapped by the undead, saved by Danaerys was well constructed. It was let down by the plot contrivance that got the dragons to the scene in time, though.
The whole thing was terrible, contrived, predictable and stupid. The bear attack was a indulgance - I guess it showed how incredably stupid wondering off into the ice was without anyway of getting out, any real plan. Then there was the magic island of last stands where we can watch no names get killed - yawn. The hilarious - "Run to the Wall Forest" - URGhhh what the Wall just spent days walking from and then I need to "send a Raven to Dany" - I am sorry what. Why don't I just fly there myself!
IF you want Dany to save them with her Dragons (and that was cool) - write a decent reason why she headed north days ago. Maybe she wanted to show her future subjects what she could do - whatever but that was just dismel writing.
Oh and then Jon Snow decides that he has to get those extra XP and kill some more pointless zobies - cos he is a complete tool that loses every battle he fights in and is so used to be saved by one Deus Ex machina after another he assumes he is immune to everything,. Oh look a Dragon dies because of his stupidity. Seriously Feth him.
But wait he drowns in ice water and does the world a favour - oh no he doesn;t he is dead or something so immune to the cold or something and oh look yet another minor character sacrifices themself so he can go and get more people killed - great going Jon. Apparently Cold Hands magic horse can only carry one.
Still that's probably a minor nitpick, though. Honestly I was more bothered by Benjin's contrived sacrifice, meaning his story was hinted at for 5 years, only to really amount to nothing much at all.
He doesn;t really matter n the show - it may be the same in the books he is just there to give Jon Snow a magic escape route.
I'm a bit surprised at the complaints about how some characters have become main characters who cannot die. This was always the case. It's just Martin hid who the main characters were in the first couple of seasons. It was always a bit of a con that anyone could die at any time, because there was always key characters with key plot arcs that were going to play out. Anyone who thought because they killed Ned and Rob then maybe Jon or Tyrion might be next was falling for a bait and switch.
Completely agree - Jon,Tyrion, Sam - all GRMs favourites and immune to permanent death.
That said, I was surprised Tormund didn't die. Obviously Jon, Jorah and the Hound weren't going to die, they're key characters with plots still to be played out. I also feel they're got something planned for Beric, though I don't know what. It would have been really cheap to kill Gendry the episode after bringing him back, so that left Tormund and Thoros as the ones who were gonna die. The show did pull its punches a little by only killing one of those two. I really like Tormund so I wasn't disappointed that he's still around to be awesome, but much like when Bran survived the dragon attack, it does add a bit of a safety rails element to the action.
Though I guess they did kill a dragon. I didn't see that coming.
They have been eroding Dany's overwhelming advantage throughout the season - wipe out allies, kill a dragon, etc etc. I can def see why as otherwise she auto wins. I hope they don't kill Tomrund as well but yeah a heroe's death for a coupel more of them and Bron last episode would have been better.
They know they are ending the show - thats mroe than many shows get - so there is no real excuse for cocking it up IMO
Mr Morden wrote: IF you want Dany to save them with her Dragons (and that was cool) - write a decent reason why she headed north days ago. Maybe she wanted to show her future subjects what she could do - whatever but that was just dismel writing.
Oh and then Jon Snow decides that he has to get those extra XP and kill some more pointless zobies - cos he is a complete tool that loses every battle he fights in and is so used to be saved by one Deus Ex machina after another he assumes he is immune to everything,. Oh look a Dragon dies because of his stupidity. Seriously Feth him.
But wait he drowns in ice water and does the world a favour - oh no he doesn;t he is dead or something so immune to the cold or something and oh look yet another minor character sacrifices themself so he can go and get more people killed - great going Jon. Apparently Cold Hands magic horse can only carry one.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the zombie dragon plays a major role in getting the White Walkers past the wall (assuming they do get past the wall and its not just a climatic battle at the wall that eventually stops them). If that is the case, then I'll got out on a limb and say that getting the Dragons north of the wall for the Night King to turn one of them might be one of those major plot points that GRRM shared with the producers of GoT.
If that's true, then really any way to get Dany north of the wall on her Dragons would have required equal, if not greater, contrivance to make happen in the amount of episodes they had left. There's simply no way that she was going to fully believe Jon's tales of the white walkers (and send her forces North) without some proof, so that would have meant doing the whole expedition to capture a wight earlier, showing Dany the proof to get her to move her forces north and THEN sending forces back beyond the wall (for some reason) that contained people she cared enough about to risk using her Dragons to save (Jon or Jorah, mainly).
But doing all that would have totally disrupted the flow of the season and would have put them way behind where they are going to be for the finale (which is showing the wight to Cersei and having everyone try to work out an uneasy truce to go fight the white walkers and/or maybe the white walkers breaching the wall with their zombie dragon).
The other thing you could have done was maybe have Benjen show up to save the group (before they got surrounded) and lead them to some magic cave or something that he knows about where the dead can't enter and then they could have sat there in that cave for the prerequisite amount of time for it to be realistic for the raven and dragons to fly to Dragonstone and back...but would that have really added anything to the show or the story? Not really (and would have required Benjen to know about some magic dead-proof location which itself would have been a big contrivance).
Ultimately, anyone who just hated that last battle scene and was getting angry at every little annoying nitpick you could find just needs to ease up and enjoy the ride a bit. They laid the groundwork for nearly 7 seasons to make an interesting story and now we finally get to have some exciting payoffs, where main characters are fighting for and against each other, and the stakes are now about the world rather than just will character X live or die.
Tamereth wrote: Also from the moment jon falls in the lake I knew coldhands was gona save him. But why did he have to die. I feel we never really got to learn anything about his character, like the really important detail of him being dead but not under the night kings control. How did that happen?
He was saved by the Children of the Forest, who used dragonglass to save him from turning in to a wight. The whole story did seem to go nowhere though. After having Benjin disappear beyond the wall, have the surprise that he was still alive, albeit kind of half undead, for him to turn up out of nowhere to offer himself in a pointless sacrifice - it was a weirdly anti-climactic story that had been lurking in the background for ages, promising a payoff the show never even attempted.
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But was any of that covered in the show, or do you know this from the books. I don't remember any of this being covered by the show which is a problem, as the show needs to stand by itself. Most people watching haven't read the books and shouldn't need to go online to research plot points.
was a weirdly anti-climactic story that had been lurking in the background for ages, promising a payoff the show never even attempted.
I admit that they rather wasted the character, but isn't that one of GoT strengths though? The acknowledgement that sometimes people do just die without any closure/ redemption/ heartfelt last stand against Majin Buu.
I think they should have killed off more of the Secret Seven, they would have in past series but I suppose the unexpected killing of characters loses its shock value after a time.
Its the last episode of this series next right? I hope they have a big shock waiting! Maybe Cersei and Qyburn will form an alliance with the White Walkers? Or Sansa will have Arya poisoned by Little Finger? Or maybe The Mountain will get to have a little fun with Daenerys :-p
d-usa wrote: They spend long enough on that rock to let the ice freeze over with enough strength to support an army again. I felt like that was a good enough hint to suggest "been there quite a while, longer than a couple hours".
The the lake was terribly inconsistent with Tormund's comments about the temperature. I've lived in Alaska where it reaches -50/-60 F at night during the winter and if you're lucky is 0 in the morning. I was so acclimated to it after the first winter that 45-50 F was t-shirt and shorts weather and even in the 20's didn't require more than pants and a jacket. You'd need a temp around 0-10 at the highest for it to be cold enough to absolutely have to keep moving if you've lived in that weather. At that temperature a lake shouldn't crack under the 100lb weight of a wight to begin with and will easily freeze over during the night.
I don't see how the Raven-Dragon flight time isn't a glaring problem. It's one of the worst plot holes in pop media I've ever seen.
Then you mustn't see many things with plot holes, because this isn't a plot hole. It's a pacing issue. They're rushing.
Now it's fine if you don't like them rushing, but for me I just don't care. Not 7 Seasons in. This show has to end, and has spent so long spinning its wheels (especially with Dany, who spent an entire season looking for her stolen dragons and 6 years not coming to Westeros) that if it dragged it out any longer people would just get annoyed (we'd get another Season 5, and no one wants that).
And I know that if this season was 10 episodes and there were three "travelling around" episodes, or if the action was more spread out, giving us half action/half travelling around episodes, there'd be people here screaming about "filler" and how the "boring stuff" between the actions scenes is taking away from the action.
There is such a thing as making something all pay-off so that it becomes one giant relentless climax (the third Hobbit film might be the best example of this in recent times), but Game of Thrones is no where near Battle of Five Armies.
D and D wrote the entire season with the ending of the episode planned from the beginning and it shows. This isn't just rushing. This is them not giving a feth. This is a classic example of valuing the end of the story over the most important part, the journey.
It felt like an episode in three parts. There was the march beyond the wall, where we got to enjoy interactions between all these great characters that we hadn't seen share screen time before. Those parts were well done and really good fun. If they wanted a spin off that was just the Hound and Tormund wandering around bickering I would watch that show forever.
It might have been written that way - agreed this was well done, nice dialogue, seriously give Tromund more screen time - he is great.
I liked it, but it was getting a little dull, the rather blatant "let's have the characters talking to make the audience get attached again in one episode!". Also, Jon giving away Longclaw was pretty stupid. I mean, he wasn't even carrying another weapon - why would you give Longclaw away MID EXPEDITION?
I did like it though, so it's acceptable to me.
The last part then was the big setpiece ending. The production of the scene was excellent, and just plain amazing for tv, and the story they constructed for the fight was effect - capturing the wight, trapped by the undead, saved by Danaerys was well constructed. It was let down by the plot contrivance that got the dragons to the scene in time, though.
The whole thing was terrible, contrived, predictable and stupid. The bear attack was a indulgance - I guess it showed how incredably stupid wondering off into the ice was without anyway of getting out, any real plan.
They had a plan. It's just they had little actual knowledge of what to expect. What do you expect they could have done to plan against that? More people? Even more delays? Time was of the essence, and they had little data anyway.
Then there was the magic island of last stands where we can watch no names get killed - yawn. The hilarious - "Run to the Wall Forest" - URGhhh what the Wall just spent days walking from and then I need to "send a Raven to Dany" - I am sorry what. Why don't I just fly there myself!
Do we know they spent days walking from Wall to Lake? As far as I saw, they were going to the Arrowhead Mountain, which they then hunted and searched for the Army of the Dead. It could quite easily have been only a day of travel. They only sent a raven out because they realized their plan was falling to pieces, and needed to have a survivor. If Gendry was running, and with a return route already known (making the return faster than the journey), then it could have been made in that same day, if they'd only been a day out.
IF you want Dany to save them with her Dragons (and that was cool) - write a decent reason why she headed north days ago. Maybe she wanted to show her future subjects what she could do - whatever but that was just dismel writing.
Again, if the Raven was sent out, and the Dragons can fly quick enough, it's completely possible. However, yes, I do think Daenerys should have gone to the Wall and waited, only to find Gendry coming back.
Oh and then Jon Snow decides that he has to get those extra XP and kill some more pointless zobies - cos he is a complete tool that loses every battle he fights in and is so used to be saved by one Deus Ex machina after another he assumes he is immune to everything,. Oh look a Dragon dies because of his stupidity. Seriously Feth him.
That's a real chip you've got against Jon there. Why do you hate him so much?
Again, him going and being impulsive is quite literally part of his character. He's impulsive, bloody minded and driven. He thought the escape was near, and thought he'd be able to take some more walkers down before leaving. He had no idea the Night King could even take out a dragon. Do you think that the Hound shouldn't be afraid of fire? Probably not, because it's his character. Jon's character is his recklessness, and I think it fits it.
Also, I don't recall Jon being the reason Viserion dies. From what I saw, Viserion was looping back regardless of Jon, so I don't think he had anything to do with it. Rather, I was more bothered by: A, the Night King's extreme accuracy and even HAVING such weapons at his disposal - did he know the Dragons were coming? Was he going to use them on Jon? Where did they come from? B, the Night King not using it on Drogon, which had EVERYONE on him. Why go for the moving, flying, far away dragon when you can hit the dragon which is stationary, closer, and had EVERYONE on it? C, none of the dragons even considering burning the Night King and his lieutenants, or no-one pointing at Daenerys to burn them.
But wait he drowns in ice water and does the world a favour - oh no he doesn;t he is dead or something so immune to the cold or something and oh look yet another minor character sacrifices themself so he can go and get more people killed - great going Jon. Apparently Cold Hands magic horse can only carry one.
Yeah, Coldhands didn't need to die. That was quite stupid.
Jon's resistance to the icy water isn't immunity. He needed immediate treatment when he got back, and as a Northerner, and having spent time with the Wildlings beyond the Wall, I'd say he would be more survivable of it than any other one there, except Tormund.
I'm a bit surprised at the complaints about how some characters have become main characters who cannot die. This was always the case. It's just Martin hid who the main characters were in the first couple of seasons. It was always a bit of a con that anyone could die at any time, because there was always key characters with key plot arcs that were going to play out. Anyone who thought because they killed Ned and Rob then maybe Jon or Tyrion might be next was falling for a bait and switch.
Completely agree - Jon,Tyrion, Sam - all GRMs favourites and immune to permanent death.
As we've seen so far. People suspected Ned would be immune to death, and then he died. People thought Robb wouldn't die. He did. People thought Joffrey wouldn't die as quickly as he did. He died. Many people didn't think Jon would die. He did.
Plot armour and contrivances are nearly always required in stories. Heroes practically depend on luck and Deus-Ex-Machinas, or else there simply wouldn't be a struggle.
Of course there are characters which can't die - because it's not their time yet. Or are you saying it should have been perfectly possible that Joffrey slipped and fell on a puddle in Winterfell, dying in the first episode?
That said, I was surprised Tormund didn't die. Obviously Jon, Jorah and the Hound weren't going to die, they're key characters with plots still to be played out. I also feel they're got something planned for Beric, though I don't know what. It would have been really cheap to kill Gendry the episode after bringing him back, so that left Tormund and Thoros as the ones who were gonna die. The show did pull its punches a little by only killing one of those two. I really like Tormund so I wasn't disappointed that he's still around to be awesome, but much like when Bran survived the dragon attack, it does add a bit of a safety rails element to the action.
Though I guess they did kill a dragon. I didn't see that coming.
They have been eroding Dany's overwhelming advantage throughout the season - wipe out allies, kill a dragon, etc etc. I can def see why as otherwise she auto wins. I hope they don't kill Tomrund as well but yeah a heroe's death for a coupel more of them and Bron last episode would have been better.
They know they are ending the show - thats mroe than many shows get - so there is no real excuse for cocking it up IMO
I'll agree on more deaths. Bronn should have died. and I went into this one thinking I'd see Thoros, Beric and Tormund dying off. Of course, only one did. With Beric, I expected him and Jon on the whole "we were brought back to do something" part to charge in and try and kill the Night King, which I thought would see Beric killed by him.
Well it needed some chat on the walk into the ice - so that was fine. reminds the audience who people were - some of them havve not done anything for ages.
Yeah - "have my Wight killing sword" was a bit thick - but thats Jon. I thought they might have brough more dragonglass or a dire wolf (yeah i know they could haev the bear or a dire wolf but not both)
The plan was half assed - it reminded me of our rpging sessions - lets just find them and then wing it. and the GM Sighing.
They trecked for quite a bit across lots of different areas - it looked like more than a day but then it might be they have longer days up North.
They sent Gentry when the plan failed - he had to run across snow (which is not easy anyway and as he said a terrain that he had never even seen before) back through the various features and find his way to the North - he would have been lucky to be heading in the right direction! Then find the gatehouse, then get them to send a raven half a contient away, hoping Dany was watiing.
Just have her have a vision or something - its already massively contrived so go with it or she can decide to head North to see for herself.
Yep - I really don't ike Jon - he is treated as the Gods gift to the world, whenever he screws up no one calls him out on it - nearest was Sansa and he bascially told her to shut up. I wanted someone like Jorah to say to him - next time - get on the fething Dragon and don't grandstand like an complete ass. Dany is besotted with him so didn't say anything.
Killing three Zombies meant nothing, he knows that - he goes on about the greater threat and then ignores it. Finally somoene said - yeah bend the knee you prat.
If Drogon had took off immediately then maybe the Night king would not of got a shot. The odd thing is they didnt need to have Jon be a prat (again) - - kill the Dragon as they are flying off in triamph as it drops for a last pass, or have someone shout - kill that guy, it tries and the Night king does his thing.
The plot needed the dead to get a dragon to help balance the forces so thats what they got.
I did wonder if the idea was that the Night King was aware of it all due to Bran and so knew what was going to happen - would mean that he had his magic spears of Dragon Killing ready. Also he likely knew that throwing it at Drogon with that level opf plot shielded characters on baord was never going to work - kill the other dragon.
Same as he didn't bother trying to kill Jon as he is immune to everything - something will always save him (I recall a novel series like this - with the main character realising late in the triology that his miraculous escapes always meant someone he cared about died and/or suffered horribly).
No I am used to characters not being killiable - I like the Cain series after all - I just happen to dislike most of them in this series. Killing people in tv shows is more difficult than books but as its coming to an end and they have been doing it - the kill count on the island was very low.
On the whole I found this the weakest GOT episode so far.
d-usa wrote: They spend long enough on that rock to let the ice freeze over with enough strength to support an army again. I felt like that was a good enough hint to suggest "been there quite a while, longer than a couple hours".
The the lake was terribly inconsistent with Tormund's comments about the temperature. I've lived in Alaska where it reaches -50/-60 F at night during the winter and if you're lucky is 0 in the morning. I was so acclimated to it after the first winter that 45-50 F was t-shirt and shorts weather and even in the 20's didn't require more than pants and a jacket. You'd need a temp around 0-10 at the highest for it to be cold enough to absolutely have to keep moving if you've lived in that weather. At that temperature a lake shouldn't crack under the 100lb weight of a wight to begin with and will easily freeze over during the night.
Maybe the lake is normally a geothermal hot spring that typically wouldn't ever be frozen over but now the Night King's magic is bringing a supernaturally cold winter storm along with his army so it froze over.
Also, I don't recall Jon being the reason Viserion dies. From what I saw, Viserion was looping back regardless of Jon, so I don't think he had anything to do with it. Rather, I was more bothered by:
A, the Night King's extreme accuracy and even HAVING such weapons at his disposal - did he know the Dragons were coming? Was he going to use them on Jon? Where did they come from?
B, the Night King not using it on Drogon, which had EVERYONE on him. Why go for the moving, flying, far away dragon when you can hit the dragon which is stationary, closer, and had EVERYONE on it?
C, none of the dragons even considering burning the Night King and his lieutenants, or no-one pointing at Daenerys to burn them.
A The Night King and his Wight Lieutenants have always had those ice swords and javelins. We've seen the Night King holding an ice javelin/lance in previous episodes and the Wight Jon kills at Hardhome and the Wight they capture north of the Wall both have ice swords. We just haven't seen the Night King through an ice lance at a dragon before.
B Maybe the Night King doesn't care about the people on Drogon, he just wanted his own dragon steed. I think the Night King is more desirous of revenge on the Children of the Forest than on irrelevant humans. In some ways it's easier to paint the Children of the Forest as being more evil than the Night King.
C The dragons were focused on burning the zombies that were the most immediate threat and attacking the group. True nobody pointed out the Night King and his wights to Dany but they were preoccupied with trying to get Jon to stop trying to kill thousands of zombies single handedly and get on Drogon so they could leave.
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Mr Morden wrote: Yep - I really don't ike Jon - he is treated as the Gods gift to the world, whenever he screws up no one calls him out on it - nearest was Sansa and he bascially told her to shut up. I wanted someone like Jorah to say to him - next time - get on the fething Dragon and don't grandstand like an complete ass. Dany is besotted with him so didn't say anything.
I agree with you that Jon's plot armor can be annoying at times but I disagree with your take that Jon is treated too well. Jon is set up to be very average. He was resented by Catelyn because Ned proclaimed to the world that Jon was his bastard because he felt it was a more honorable thing to do than to tell the truth about his sister. Jon isn't groomed to be a leader or a general, that's Robb and that's why Robb was able to be King of the North and win some battles against the Lannisters. Jon was trained to be a good fighter and he got sent to the Nights Watch because there was no future for him in Winterfell. When Jon is in the Nights Watch and struggles for acceptance there and when he's north of the Wall he gets called out for being naïve and stupid by Ygritte. When he's back with the NightWatch he is the target of a mutiny and murdered by his own men. When he is resurrected he ends up King of the North because the bannermen need a Stark to rally behind but Jon is challenged by Sansa both before and after the Battle of the Bastards in which Jon gets a lot of people killed for making rash decisions and not using sound tactics. The bannermen in the North don't believe JOn's tales of the Night King's army of zombies and are greatly upset by Jon's decision to go to Dragonstone and tell him to his face it's a bad decision but Jon goes anyway.
Jon is a good fighter and his earnestness gives him some charisma and thanks to the outsized sense of duty he was taught by Ned he takes it upon himself to do a job (fight the Night King) that nobody else really wants to do and due to the feudal hierarchy on Westeros few others are capable of doing. Jon gets a lot of screen time but he's really not portrayed as being particularly capable, he's an overtly flawed character.
But was any of that covered in the show, or do you know this from the books. I don't remember any of this being covered by the show which is a problem, as the show needs to stand by itself. Most people watching haven't read the books and shouldn't need to go online to research plot points.
The one thing that the show has never been able to replicate from the books is the "new characters that are secretly old characters" trick. Reek, Coldhands, Greybeard, and the like isn't a trick you can pull off when people are familiar with the actors. Coldhands certainly suffered more than any other in this regard. I do think his write off was the weakest part of the episode. He really deserved a scene with Jon to drop a little backstory by a fire before the Wights found them again. I find it a far bigger loss overall than figuring out the flight speed of dragons.
was a weirdly anti-climactic story that had been lurking in the background for ages, promising a payoff the show never even attempted.
I admit that they rather wasted the character, but isn't that one of GoT strengths though? The acknowledgement that sometimes people do just die without any closure/ redemption/ heartfelt last stand against Majin Buu.
I'd argue that Martin's big deaths have been characters that we got to know well, so that the drama of it is amplified.
But that's not what we got with Benjen. Again, Benjen and Jon are close, and a real reunion would have recalled their last meeting on the Wall and been more dramatic than "Uncle Benjen, you're alive! Aaaaand now you're dead and forgotten." Finding Benjen was an important motivation for Jon. Remember that Jon was still hoping to find Benjen when he was Lord Commander -- that's how Olly lures him to his murder. The story also flirted with the notion that Benjen knew Jon's parentage. And both have been reanimated, albeit differently. You can make the case that Benjen foreshadows Jon's journey in certain ways.
You just don't write it THAT encounter that way if you have any storytelling sense. Skip the kewls of a zombie bear and save some of that time for some important character interaction.
sebster wrote: Jon's resistance to the icy water isn't immunity. He needed immediate treatment when he got back, and as a Northerner, and having spent time with the Wildlings beyond the Wall, I'd say he would be more survivable of it than any other one there, except Tormund.
I don't think acclimation to cold is going to make a lot of difference when experiencing severe hypothermia. Dangerously low core body temps are dangerously low core body temps.
However, it's also important to consider if Jon is a normal human anymore.
Here are Martin's comments about Beric, which might also apply to Jon.
"His memories are fading, he's got all these scars, he's becoming more and more physically hideous, because he's not a living human being anymore. His heart isn't beating, his blood isn't flowing in his veins, he's a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we're getting back to the whole fire and ice thing."
However, it's also important to consider if Jon is a normal human anymore.
Here are Martin's comments about Beric, which might also apply to Jon.
"His memories are fading, he's got all these scars, he's becoming more and more physically hideous, because he's not a living human being anymore. His heart isn't beating, his blood isn't flowing in his veins, he's a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we're getting back to the whole fire and ice thing."
Wait, wouldn't that mean John can't have children as well? The Targaryns are doomed to extinction then right?
Pretty much the entire episode was pure horse gak.
Ravens and dragons that fly at super sonic speeds. The Night King only breaks out his super deadly accurate spear to down the dragon, yet not one arrow or spear to be used against the party when they are trapped on the ice? Instead he surrounds them and stands at a distance as if for some reason he needs to take Jon alive rather than kill him and just raise his corpse. He's already attempted to kill Jon so why the restraint now other than to use it as a poor excuse to have the dragons fly to the rescue. Just terrible, not only do the dragons provide a poorly written LOTR eagles moment but on top of that Jon has to be further saved by Ben who also just appears out of nowhere. Apparently he exists only to lurk around the north on the odd chance that he'll need to save Jon. We're in the 7th season of Jon being dumb as hell and bumbling his way through things only to be saved time and time again by everyone else, it's so damn tiring.
The Night King is laser accurate at 1,000 yards with his spear but never once throw it at Jon or anyone on the ice, then only goes after the dragon flying on it's own rather than the one on the ground before it can fly away with all the people he's trying to kill? Also something that's always annoyed me about him is the lack of any sort of movement or suggestion of emotion. Even the basic undead hiss and snarl in anger which gives them at least a sort of animalistic sense of threat, he just stands around glaring and doesn't seem to move or apply any sense of effort to anything, even when he somehow hurls his spear with titanic dragon killing strength. He's about as boring on screen as Jon.
I get that people have been clamoring for the dragons to be onscreen for multiple seasons but now they are just throwing them in for thrill effect rather than spending the time writing or setting up a scene that doesn't feel like a forced version of super friends.
Arya who has all her supposed stealth training and face magic is the worst spy ever. She can apparently engineer the death of an entire throne room full of people but can't walk down the hallway without being seen in her true face by Little Finger. For a supposed master assassin she's about as sharp witted as a rock in this episode. The in fighting between them is incredibly stupid and she flips between trying to be hard core lone wolf yet fiercely close to her family and stalwart to the point she'd turn on her sister for Jon?
Tamereth wrote: But was any of that covered in the show, or do you know this from the books. I don't remember any of this being covered by the show which is a problem, as the show needs to stand by itself. Most people watching haven't read the books and shouldn't need to go online to research plot points.
It's in the show, in season 6, after Benjen rescues Bran. He reveals who is he, Bran asks how, and Benjen says his raiding party was attacked by White Walkers and Benjen was stabbed and left to turn. The children found Benjen and saved him, Benjen explaining "the same way they created the walkers in the first place." To which Bran replies "a shard of dragonglass plunged in to the heart".
Like a lot of plot points, there's a chance it will come up again. Not with Benjen, who just went out with a contrived death, but it's probably gonna be used to save an important character, stop them from turning after they've been stabbed by a white walker's weapon. Maybe save Jon? You know, again
That was also the scene where Benjen made a point of spelling out that it is Bran who will be there, waiting to stop the Night King when he crosses in to the land of men. Not Danaerys or Jon, but Bran.
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Kroem wrote: I admit that they rather wasted the character, but isn't that one of GoT strengths though? The acknowledgement that sometimes people do just die without any closure/ redemption/ heartfelt last stand against Majin Buu.
My issue wasn't so much that he died, but that he died a stupid death. Last season he took Bran & Meera on his horse and rode away from pursuing wights. This season he decides his horse can't take two people, so he has to stay behind.
I think they should have killed off more of the Secret Seven, they would have in past series but I suppose the unexpected killing of characters loses its shock value after a time.
Definitely agreed. But if they killed a second character, it would have been Tormund, so I'm not sure if I'm happy about that or not.
While the show has reduced its death toll of major characters as its gone on and the bait & switch of the Starks has made way for a more conventional story, this season now stands out in first letting Bronn live, and now only killing one of the seven despite what they faced.
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Mr Morden wrote: The whole thing was terrible, contrived, predictable and stupid. The bear attack was a indulgance - I guess it showed how incredably stupid wondering off into the ice was without anyway of getting out, any real plan. Then there was the magic island of last stands where we can watch no names get killed - yawn. The hilarious - "Run to the Wall Forest" - URGhhh what the Wall just spent days walking from and then I need to "send a Raven to Dany" - I am sorry what. Why don't I just fly there myself!
IF you want Dany to save them with her Dragons (and that was cool) - write a decent reason why she headed north days ago. Maybe she wanted to show her future subjects what she could do - whatever but that was just dismel writing.
Oh and then Jon Snow decides that he has to get those extra XP and kill some more pointless zobies - cos he is a complete tool that loses every battle he fights in and is so used to be saved by one Deus Ex machina after another he assumes he is immune to everything,. Oh look a Dragon dies because of his stupidity. Seriously Feth him.
I liked the undead bear, oh well
On the dumbness of their plan to capture a wight, there's actually a brief almost moment after they capture the wight when it starts to scream and they seem to realise they have no plan. That's kind of a thing with Jon Snow, though, and it's so specific to him I almost wonder if its deliberate - people follow him because he's principled and has won fights, but he's an absolute idiot who only escapes because he can fight and has had an amazing lucky streak. I remember people loving the Battle of the Bastards, but I wasn't sure if I liked that episode or not, because Ramsay outplayed Jon in every way. Jon got saved because Sansa brought the Knights of the Vale, who turned up just as Ramsay had brought in his flanks to slaughter a defeated Jon.
I don't know. If it was just this episode I could see it being sloppy writing. But there is a pattern to the writing of Jon screwing up, acting emotionally and without thought. I hope there's some payoff for it. If done well it could be a nice way of subverting the messiah plot. But probably not.
Apparently Cold Hands magic horse can only carry one.
What's doubly annoying is Benjen's already rescued two people on his horse, Bran & Meera, and he didn't have to get off it.
They know they are ending the show - thats mroe than many shows get - so there is no real excuse for cocking it up IMO
Yep, they've had a clear plot line from the start, with the chance to set up many elements to pay off much later in the series. And they've known for a while now how long they had to finish this thing. As you say that's more than most shows get.
Arya and Sansa will kiss and make up soon enough, not worried about that plot line.
I enjoyed the action and fight sequences but I can see some of the issues now looking back. One thing that kinda bugged me though is.. if the water makes undead thing sink and disappear forever, why didn't clegane just walk around smashing the ice? He did it at one point in the fight, why not think "Gee, this works" and do it again?
I have a feeling the ballistas at Kings Landing will be used to kill the ice dragon in the next season, after Jamie kills Cersi and becomes King in the South and Supreme General of the Living Armies of Westeros
I hope that Sansa sending Briene away is a sign that she knows that Littlefinger is trying to get her to fight Arya. I also worry that Littlefinger was playing Sansa to get rid of Briene.
Maybe we'll have an OMGTWIST and find out that Arya is arguing with Sansa and sneaking around in plain sight doing dumb things and in fact playing Littlefinger, who thought he was playing her all along?
John coming out of a frozen lake and being apparently bone dry seconds later when Benjin shows up, Dragons showing up seemingly in just hours after Gendry runs off, increasingly obvious foreshadowing, etc ad nauseum.
Jon wasn't bone dry, he was freeze dried. Like when they got him onto the boat they had to crack the frozen furs off him.
Necros wrote: Arya and Sansa will kiss and make up soon enough, not worried about that plot line.
The oddity of it is that Arya has NEVER liked Sansa even a little bit, but they haven't actually crossed paths since season 1. It wouldn't be nearly as jarring to see them at odds with one another if it hadn't literally been years since their last scene together. It's just very weird timing more than anything.
While I generally enjoyed the episode, the flight time is a little bit of an annoying stretch. Pity really, as they had a whole exchange between Dany and Tyrion where she is obviously impatient and he's lecturing her about being impulsive. They could have just had a storm off with a "this is taking too long" statement and at least get her to Eastwatch to receive the news.
Pretty much the entire episode was pure horse gak.
Yep - apart from the dialogue - that was good -some nice stuff. But oh Look Zombie Bear, oh look Dragons........
Ravens and dragons that fly at super sonic speeds.
Yeah that was just awful writing. Skipping unimportant travel and just sayng time passes is fine - Come up with a magic reason how Dany gets the message - whatever but not this crap
The Night King only breaks out his super deadly accurate spear to down the dragon, yet not one arrow or spear to be used against the party when they are trapped on the ice? Instead he surrounds them and stands at a distance as if for some reason he needs to take Jon alive rather than kill him and just raise his corpse. He's already attempted to kill Jon so why the restraint now other than to use it as a poor excuse to have the dragons fly to the rescue. Just terrible, not only do the dragons provide a poorly written LOTR eagles moment but on top of that Jon has to be further saved by Ben who also just appears out of nowhere. Apparently he exists only to lurk around the north on the odd chance that he'll need to save Jon. We're in the 7th season of Jon being dumb as hell and bumbling his way through things only to be saved time and time again by everyone else, it's so damn tiring.
Everyone exists to save Jon - then they usually die.
The Night King is laser accurate at 1,000 yards with his spear but never once throw it at Jon or anyone on the ice, then only goes after the dragon flying on it's own rather than the one on the ground before it can fly away with all the people he's trying to kill? Also something that's always annoyed me about him is the lack of any sort of movement or suggestion of emotion. Even the basic undead hiss and snarl in anger which gives them at least a sort of animalistic sense of threat, he just stands around glaring and doesn't seem to move or apply any sense of effort to anything, even when he somehow hurls his spear with titanic dragon killing strength. He's about as boring on screen as Jon.
Not really thought about it but yeah - I suppose they are going for the emotionless enemy in contrast to say Ramsey or Euron - whio I loved.
I get that people have been clamoring for the dragons to be onscreen for multiple seasons but now they are just throwing them in for thrill effect rather than spending the time writing or setting up a scene that doesn't feel like a forced version of super friends.
Dragons are cool and the death scene was impressive - I guess it does show that the Undead are actually powerful.
Apparently they are within a short run of the wall now - probably - as Bran knows with his flock of Raven vision - again - he sends ahuge flock of them in once place ratehr than a single bird that might be missed. seriously is Bran on their side or is he just that annoying exposition guy in a rpg you want to kill but the gm won't let you. Naybe he could have told Sansa some useful things rather than wittering on about her being pretty before she was raped.
Arya who has all her supposed stealth training and face magic is the worst spy ever. She can apparently engineer the death of an entire throne room full of people but can't walk down the hallway without being seen in her true face by Little Finger. For a supposed master assassin she's about as sharp witted as a rock in this episode. The in fighting between them is incredibly stupid and she flips between trying to be hard core lone wolf yet fiercely close to her family and stalwart to the point she'd turn on her sister for Jon?
Sort of agree but I think Arya thinks she is a cold masater assassin and does have some of the skills but emitionally she is only a bit more devleoped than her sister.
Again I thik the show just wanted tension which sort of works as the characters don't really like each other and never have done and may of us with siblings can relate.
d-usa wrote: I hope that Sansa sending Briene away is a sign that she knows that Littlefinger is trying to get her to fight Arya. I also worry that Littlefinger was playing Sansa to get rid of Briene.
I'd love it if the culmination of his arc was Littlefinger making his move to put Sansa in charge of the north in front of all the other lords, but she refuses and guts him with the fancy dagger
Tamereth wrote:
Though I do wish one of them had asked how those flaming swords worked.
From the books: Beric uses his blood to ignite his swords (if I remember correctly they also need to be replaced as the fire makes them brittle or something).
Tamereth wrote:
Though I do wish one of them had asked how those flaming swords worked.
From the books: Beric uses his blood to ignite his swords (if I remember correctly they also need to be replaced as the fire makes them brittle or something).
You would have thought one of them might have said - can you light up my sword - well not the Hound.
Was it only Jorah who had a tiny Dragonglass dagger.
Apparently they are now claiming that they sat around on the island for days whilst Firest Gendry ran to the wall and fetched help....
Mr Morden wrote: You would have thought one of them might have said - can you light up my sword - well not the Hound.
Was it only Jorah who had a tiny Dragonglass dagger.
Apparently they are now claiming that they sat around on the island for days whilst Firest Gendry ran to the wall and fetched help....
Jorah had two dragonglass daggers, Tormund had a dragonglass axe, the hound had a dragonglass pick, Beric had his flaming sword and Jon had Longclaw.
The episode director is saying in interviews that they spent one long night on the island, not several days. And yes, they knew they were straining plausibility, but hoped the strength of what was actually happening onscreen would carry the day, which I can personally accept.
jhe90 wrote: Well new episode title coming is Dragon and the Wolf it seems.
So something gonna happen between those two.
Be they finding they are family or standard Targerian relationships...
Standard GRM you mean
Of the surving Great Houses it happens in both Targaryians and Lanisters and nearly in Ironborn and dodgy stuff with someof the Wildlings, isn't Sams girl pregnant with her fathers child?
its a central theme that Dany and Jon are getting together - not to my taste but fan pleasing as can be seen from the last episode. I don't really see any chemistry there myself.
Jorah had two dragonglass daggers, Tormund had a dragonglass axe, the hound had a dragonglass pick, Beric had his flaming sword and Jon had Longclaw
The episode director is saying in interviews that they spent one long night on the island, not several days. And yes, they knew they were straining plausibility, but hoped the strength of what was actually happening onscreen would carry the day, which I can personally accept.
thanks - missed that the other weapons were dragonglass - saw the daggers.
Nah Sadly for me it shot plausibility, dug its grave and walked away. The previous travel stuff was fine - this was laughable. Each to their own.
jhe90 wrote: Well new episode title coming is Dragon and the Wolf it seems.
So something gonna happen between those two.
Be they finding they are family or standard Targerian relationships...
Standard GRM you mean
Of the surving Great Houses it happens in both Targaryians and Lanisters and nearly in Ironborn and dodgy stuff with someof the Wildlings, isn't Sams girl pregnant with her fathers child?
its a central theme that Dany and Jon are getting together - not to my taste but fan pleasing as can be seen from the last episode. I don't really see any chemistry there myself.
Jorah had two dragonglass daggers, Tormund had a dragonglass axe, the hound had a dragonglass pick, Beric had his flaming sword and Jon had Longclaw
The episode director is saying in interviews that they spent one long night on the island, not several days. And yes, they knew they were straining plausibility, but hoped the strength of what was actually happening onscreen would carry the day, which I can personally accept.
thanks - missed that the other weapons were dragonglass - saw the daggers.
Nah Sadly for me it shot plausibility, dug its grave and walked away. The previous travel stuff was fine - this was laughable. Each to their own.
Yes. Sams girlfriend was castors daughter.
Thr baby is castors by Birth.
And well given they both have now got massive trauma issues Jon and Danby might start to work more. Now also she might not be saying bend the knee every 5 minutes.
It could work.
Also well in any other show we be shocked.
I Got we shrug.
paulson games wrote: The Night King is laser accurate at 1,000 yards with his spear but never once throw it at Jon or anyone on the ice, then only goes after the dragon flying on it's own rather than the one on the ground before it can fly away with all the people he's trying to kill? Also something that's always annoyed me about him is the lack of any sort of movement or suggestion of emotion. Even the basic undead hiss and snarl in anger which gives them at least a sort of animalistic sense of threat, he just stands around glaring and doesn't seem to move or apply any sense of effort to anything, even when he somehow hurls his spear with titanic dragon killing strength. He's about as boring on screen as Jon.
What was the rush? The Night's King has all the time in the world to sit there and wait for them to freeze to death. I also rather like that he's completely emotionless but YMMV.
I don't think the Night King is emotionless, he just doesn't emote as much/strongly. There was definitely emotion conveyed during the seen where he raises all the newly dead Wildlings while standing on the dock in front of Jon.
AduroT wrote: I don't think the Night King is emotionless, he just doesn't emote as much/strongly. There was definitely emotion conveyed during the seen where he raises all the newly dead Wildlings while standing on the dock in front of Jon.
Yeah, he is thousands of years old, ancient and patient. And he has all time time the world to do his plans, winter can last years, he can wait days.
Speaking of Arya and Sansas thing. Can someone explain why little finger convinced Sansa to send Brienne away? I clearly missed the point entirely but it made no sense to me.
But I loved how terrifying Arya was in there little chat in her room. Damn that chick is scary
Clearly the Night King waited to attack Jon because he knew that would bring dragons to his aid. I think the Night King NEEDS a dragon for part of his plan.
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d-usa wrote: I got the impression that he was encouraging Sansa to use Brienne to deal with Arya, and that sending her away was a counter to his suggestion.
I also think that Arya was playing the game and lying with everything she said, and that she is letting Littlefinger think that he's got her as well.
Well THAT makes some sense! Ok Ill go with that line of reasoning then. I also think Arya is playing Little Finger as well. Arya has become an incredibly efficient killer with the wit to match. Little Finger is clever yes, but I think his weakness is he thinks hes so clever no one can see him coming
paulson games wrote: The Night King is laser accurate at 1,000 yards with his spear but never once throw it at Jon or anyone on the ice, then only goes after the dragon flying on it's own rather than the one on the ground before it can fly away with all the people he's trying to kill? Also something that's always annoyed me about him is the lack of any sort of movement or suggestion of emotion. Even the basic undead hiss and snarl in anger which gives them at least a sort of animalistic sense of threat, he just stands around glaring and doesn't seem to move or apply any sense of effort to anything, even when he somehow hurls his spear with titanic dragon killing strength. He's about as boring on screen as Jon.
KingCracker wrote:Clearly the Night King waited to attack Jon because he knew that would bring dragons to his aid. I think the Night King NEEDS a dragon for part of his plan.
That was my feeling. I don't think he cared much about the Fellowship. He just wanted himself a dragon so was hanging on until they turned up. And he was turned into the Night's King what, ten-thousand years or more ago? Probably past getting extremely excited about anything. Plenty of time to get really comfortable with being slow, calm and methodical in all those years. He's pretty much Mortarion.
Yeha thats a possibility and even if he is not Bran or tapping Brans thoughts or whatever - his pet Polar Bears would have told him they were coming - plus the guy who got dragged off by one may have done so.
Of course he could have just killed the Fellowship and got them to stand on the island as fi they were still alive..........who would of or could have known until it was too late. Perrhaps he just fancies Jon.
Hell how did they even find the place as Gendry had only ever been there once and did not come with Dany....
Very Poor episode, but hopeflly next one will be good
Well the army of the dead isnt exactly inconspicuous. And who know maybe Gendry just ran mostly south to the wall. Meaning the directions are as easy as "fly due north from the gate"
Im not trying to make excuses though this whole season has been rather.......I wouldnt say bad but Ill leave it at that.
KingCracker wrote: Clearly the Night King waited to attack Jon because he knew that would bring dragons to his aid. I think the Night King NEEDS a dragon for part of his plan.
How did he know that sparing Jon would lead to a dragon coming to rescue him? I mean, it's not exactly common knowledge, and how would he know that Daenerys was coming, let alone that she had dragons?
KingCracker wrote: Clearly the Night King waited to attack Jon because he knew that would bring dragons to his aid. I think the Night King NEEDS a dragon for part of his plan.
How did he know that sparing Jon would lead to a dragon coming to rescue him? I mean, it's not exactly common knowledge, and how would he know that Daenerys was coming, let alone that she had dragons?
Because the Night King is Bran Stark from the future, who got trapped in the past in the body of the First Man who was transformed by the Children of The Forest into the Night King and therefore the Night King has the same Warging and Green-seeing abilities of Bran that let you view events from thousands of miles away?
Seriously thats an actual theory doing the rounds on Youtube now.
Seriously thats an actual theory doing the rounds on Youtube now.
At least we can say the Book vs Show crowd has one thing in common, stupid theories.
Well its not entirely implausible. We know that Bran CAN directly affect the past, when he nuked Hodor's brain and called out to his father Ned who heard him on the steps of the Tower of Joy.
The former Three Eyed Raven warned Bran that if he spends too much time in the past, he may lose himself.
EDIT: And as LunarSol brings up, when Old Nan tells Bran about all the stories and legends of all the various Brandon Starks throughout history she tends to confuse and conflate them all into one person. That could also be foreshadowing.
It's actually not too far out of bounds really. Even in the first book, when Bran first gets hurt they use it as an excuse to drop backstory on all the great Brandon Starks throughout history that he's named after. Seems like a plausible way to make the finale actually character based instead of random evil invasion to a story that is far and way not that.
LunarSol wrote: It's actually not too far out of bounds really. Even in the first book, when Bran first gets hurt they use it as an excuse to drop backstory on all the great Brandon Starks throughout history that he's named after. Seems like a plausible way to make the finale actually character based instead of random evil invasion to a story that is far and way not that.
Yes, when Old Nan is telling stories and legends to Bran, she gets the various Brandon Starks throughout history confused and has a tendency to conflate them all into one person.
So all of the other Brandons in history are the same Brandon, skipping around through time? So would that make him his own great, great, great, great grandfather?
Necros wrote: So all of the other Brandons in history are the same Brandon, skipping around through time? So would that make him his own great, great, great, great grandfather?
Well not exactly. He travelled through time, warging into and possessing each Brandon Stark in history and directing their actions.
So he warged into a Brandon Stark who lived after the Long Night and used him to build The Wall. This Brandon would later become known as Brandon the Builder, when he was actually being possessed by Bran at the time.
This does not make Bran literally his own great, great, great, great grandfather, but he did possess the body of his grandfather temporarily.
Necros wrote: So all of the other Brandons in history are the same Brandon, skipping around through time? So would that make him his own great, great, great, great grandfather?
Well not exactly. He travelled through time, warging into and possessing each Brandon Stark in history and directing their actions.
So he warged into a Brandon Stark who lived after the Long Night and used him to build The Wall. This Brandon would later become known as Brandon the Builder, when he was actually being possessed by Bran at the time.
This does not make Bran literally his own great, great, great, great grandfather, but he did possess the body of his grandfather temporarily.
Bran currenlty seems to lack any motivation to do anything,
Presume the above is "a past" as if he (and likely others) can effect it then past and present is not fixed and they live in a multiverse that allows mutiple universes where history differes.
Bran currenlty seems to lack any motivation to do anything,
Presume the above is "a past" as if he (and likely others) can effect it then past and present is not fixed and they live in a multiverse that allows mutiple universes where history differes.
Time travel is seldom done well sadly.
He seems to be getting to a very Dr. Manhattan like "I exist everywhere in time but can't actually affect time because the things that happen are the things that happen" version of time travel.
Bran currenlty seems to lack any motivation to do anything,
Presume the above is "a past" as if he (and likely others) can effect it then past and present is not fixed and they live in a multiverse that allows mutiple universes where history differes.
Time travel is seldom done well sadly.
He seems to be getting to a very Dr. Manhattan like "I exist everywhere in time but can't actually affect time because the things that happen are the things that happen" version of time travel.
Which we already know to be categorically untrue because we know that Bran went back and nuked Hodor's brain.
Necros wrote: but maybe hodor's brain was destined to be nuked by bran going back in time to nuke it? We could nuke our own brains just thinking about it.
Bran currenlty seems to lack any motivation to do anything,
Presume the above is "a past" as if he (and likely others) can effect it then past and present is not fixed and they live in a multiverse that allows mutiple universes where history differes.
Time travel is seldom done well sadly.
He seems to be getting to a very Dr. Manhattan like "I exist everywhere in time but can't actually affect time because the things that happen are the things that happen" version of time travel.
Which we already know to be categorically untrue because we know that Bran went back and nuked Hodor's brain.
Bran currenlty seems to lack any motivation to do anything,
Presume the above is "a past" as if he (and likely others) can effect it then past and present is not fixed and they live in a multiverse that allows mutiple universes where history differes.
Time travel is seldom done well sadly.
He seems to be getting to a very Dr. Manhattan like "I exist everywhere in time but can't actually affect time because the things that happen are the things that happen" version of time travel.
Which we already know to be categorically untrue because we know that Bran went back and nuked Hodor's brain.
We have never known a non-fried Hodor.
Not true, in one of his visions Bran saw Hodor as a child in Winterfel before he was Hodor-ized. Hodor used to be called Wyllas, and he could speak.
Maybe Bran, knowing what is going on everywhere because he is the Three Eyed Raven, assisted the Raven in flying faster to Dragonstone.
Or you know, this is a show about a world where Magic is coming back and we should stop assuming that the laws of physics in our world will apply to theirs.
Not true, in one of his visions Bran saw Hodor as a child in Winterfel before he was Hodor-ized. Hodor used to be called Wyllas, and he could speak.
We have never known a timeline in which Hodor wasn't Hodor-ized after the point in which he was Hodor-ized. There has never been a reality we're aware of in which Bran went north of the wall with Wyllas for example.
Dreadwinter wrote: Maybe Bran, knowing what is going on everywhere because he is the Three Eyed Raven, assisted the Raven in flying faster to Dragonstone.
Or you know, this is a show about a world where Magic is coming back and we should stop assuming that the laws of physics in our world will apply to theirs.
Magic is cool, but then use magic - don't just go - "run to the wall and use a raven" - thats laughably bad writing.
We have never known a timeline in which Hodor wasn't Hodor-ized after the point in which he was Hodor-ized. There has never been a reality we're aware of in which Bran went north of the wall with Wyllas for example.
If he can change the past, it stands to reason that mutiple possible pasts and futures exist.
Except that there are no known examples of him changing anything by traveling to the past. Bran only knew Hodorized Hodor, and traveling back in time only resulted in explaining why Hodor was Hodorized and didn't change any reality.
The past already accounted for actions from the future, and we haven't had any examples of something being changed.
d-usa wrote: Except that there are no known examples of him changing anything by traveling to the past. Bran only knew Hodorized Hodor, and traveling back in time only resulted in explaining why Hodor was Hodorized and didn't change any reality.
The past already accounted for actions from the future, and we haven't had any examples of something being changed.
Didn't he watch his fathers assault on the tower several times and in one he shouted and was heard which had not happened before or am i misremembering? Also was he not told not to meddle with the past - which implies it can be changed?
Mr Morden wrote: Didn't he watch his fathers assault on the tower several times and in one he shouted and was heard which had not happened before or am i misremembering? Also was he not told not to meddle with the past - which implies it can be changed?
He yelled and Ned did seem to hear his yell briefly, but we never saw a version of that past where Ned didn't do that. So as far as we (the viewer) know, Ned always did that because Bran always yelled at him.
From the information we've been provided as a viewer, the version of time travel presented in GoT is a closed loop...everything that will occur because of the Three Eyed Raven's time travel has already happened in the past, thereby forming the events of the present that we're watching. Or if this is really more of a 'branching path' style of time travel, then we're still seeing the branch that sprouted because of all the changes that Bran has already made (and will make).
Either way, nothing that Bran does appears to change anything we've watched...it is implied that his changes are instead what made the sequence of events we're watching.
All I know is there are two things I better see before this show ends:
1.) Bronn gets a castle
2.) I better see some damn ice-spiders the size of dogs. I've seen references to this multiple times in the book and in the show, and yet, 7 seasons in, the ice-spider count is still a hard zero.
Magic is cool, but then use magic - don't just go - "run to the wall and use a raven" - thats laughably bad writing.
What did you want him to do? "Run to the wall, my brother the Three Eyed Raven is a Worg and he will make the raven go faster to Dragonstone. MAGIC IS REAL MORTY!"
Except, Jon doesn't know anything about the Three Eyed Raven and spelling something out like that is just god awful storytelling.
trexmeyer wrote: D and D wrote the entire season with the ending of the episode planned from the beginning and it shows. This isn't just rushing. This is them not giving a feth. This is a classic example of valuing the end of the story over the most important part, the journey.
Yeah. The two guys in charge of one of the most watched and most successful shows in the world 'don't give a feth'.
Ouze wrote: What was the rush? The Night's King has all the time in the world to sit there and wait for them to freeze to death. I also rather like that he's completely emotionless but YMMV.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Well its not entirely implausible. We know that Bran CAN directly affect the past, when he nuked Hodor's brain and called out to his father Ned who heard him on the steps of the Tower of Joy.
The former Three Eyed Raven warned Bran that if he spends too much time in the past, he may lose himself.
EDIT: And as LunarSol brings up, when Old Nan tells Bran about all the stories and legends of all the various Brandon Starks throughout history she tends to confuse and conflate them all into one person. That could also be foreshadowing.
And when the Night King attacks Bran asks who is attacking, and Leif replies "you are" or something to that effect.
I really, really hope the Bran is the "Night King" thing turns out to be false. I'm just really god damn sick of time travel nonsense, and if this theory is correct this'd be one of the worst ways of doing it.
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Sgt_Smudge wrote: How did he know that sparing Jon would lead to a dragon coming to rescue him? I mean, it's not exactly common knowledge, and how would he know that Daenerys was coming, let alone that she had dragons?
Also the army of the dead attacked before Danaerys arrived, when they realised the lake's surface had frozen solid. When you're using someone as bait it doesn't make much sense to kill them while waiting for the support to arrive.
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Mr Morden wrote: If he can change the past, it stands to reason that mutiple possible pasts and futures exist.
The show is running with the opposite of that, where it's touched on time travel. The Hodor story showed Bran changing something in the past, so that it now fit with how things are in the future. It wasn't as if Bran travelled North with a friend called Wylass, who when Bran returned to the past he turned in to Hodor, and then on returning to the future he was there with Hodor.
Man, this is why time travel sucks so bad. In the limited doses we've seen in GoT so far its okay, as a whisper that caused Ned Stark to turn around, or as an origin story for a minor character, but any more than that and it just gets so horrible, so quickly.
I could see the show making Bran and the Night King opposites of the same coin. But I figured at the very least when the Night King touched Bran while he was spying on him, the Night King could of stolen or had events imprinted on him that shows or showed future events.
Hence "wait here for dragons" I mean why else would he just so happen to have dragon slaying ice spears?
Or its all the Matrix. And this has all happened 7 times now since H R R Martin loves the number 7
Seriously thats an actual theory doing the rounds on Youtube now.
At least we can say the Book vs Show crowd has one thing in common, stupid theories.
Well its not entirely implausible. We know that Bran CAN directly affect the past, when he nuked Hodor's brain and called out to his father Ned who heard him on the steps of the Tower of Joy.
The former Three Eyed Raven warned Bran that if he spends too much time in the past, he may lose himself.
EDIT: And as LunarSol brings up, when Old Nan tells Bran about all the stories and legends of all the various Brandon Starks throughout history she tends to confuse and conflate them all into one person. That could also be foreshadowing.
Where this gets confusing to me is that Old Nan's stories are a thing in the books, but not in the show. And the Night King being the first Other/WW is a thing in the show, but probably isn't in the books. In fact, I'm not sure if Bran the Builder has been mentioned in the show either. I'm just not clear how much we can draw on the story in one medium to draw conclusions about the other anymore.
We could see the issue of all the Brandon Starks in history be explained on the show at some point. Or maybe a lot of this will never be explained, and they'll just give us some fire dragons vs. ice dragon mayhem instead. YEAH!
And regarding stupid theories, there are some of those going around. But R+L=J was dead on, and not all book theorizing is nonsense. Martin builds an impressive amount of depth into the books, and there's no question that he's fond of using the POV approach and stories told by characters to force readers to have to piece together what actually happened or the meaning of an event.
It's easy to just handwave and say things like the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree are unimportant. But that story does give readers some insight into Lyanna, even if the identity of the knight forever remains a mystery.
I just figured out how the dragons got there so fast!
That guy ran to get help, but by the time he got there, Jon and the rest were dead. Feeling his brother's death they same way Obi Wan felt the planet explode, Bran went back in time and warged into the raven keerper guy, who actually sent the message to Dany 2 days ago. Thus, she was able to arrive just in the nick of time. They can put all that stuff in the deleted scenes on the DVD.
Seriously thats an actual theory doing the rounds on Youtube now.
At least we can say the Book vs Show crowd has one thing in common, stupid theories.
Well its not entirely implausible. We know that Bran CAN directly affect the past, when he nuked Hodor's brain and called out to his father Ned who heard him on the steps of the Tower of Joy.
The former Three Eyed Raven warned Bran that if he spends too much time in the past, he may lose himself.
EDIT: And as LunarSol brings up, when Old Nan tells Bran about all the stories and legends of all the various Brandon Starks throughout history she tends to confuse and conflate them all into one person. That could also be foreshadowing.
Where this gets confusing to me is that Old Nan's stories are a thing in the books, but not in the show. And the Night King being the first Other/WW is a thing in the show, but probably isn't in the books. In fact, I'm not sure if Bran the Builder has been mentioned in the show either. I'm just not clear how much we can draw on the story in one medium to draw conclusions about the other anymore.
We could see the issue of all the Brandon Starks in history be explained on the show at some point. Or maybe a lot of this will never be explained, and they'll just give us some fire dragons vs. ice dragon mayhem instead. YEAH!
And regarding stupid theories, there are some of those going around. But R+L=J was dead on, and not all book theorizing is nonsense. Martin builds an impressive amount of depth into the books, and there's no question that he's fond of using the POV approach and stories told by characters to force readers to have to piece together what actually happened or the meaning of an event.
It's easy to just handwave and say things like the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree are unimportant. But that story does give readers some insight into Lyanna, even if the identity of the knight forever remains a mystery.
Not saying that all the theories are dumb, I'm just saying both the show and book fans have dumb theories in common. As in both sides are more than capable of dumb theories.
Magic is cool, but then use magic - don't just go - "run to the wall and use a raven" - thats laughably bad writing.
What did you want him to do? "Run to the wall, my brother the Three Eyed Raven is a Worg and he will make the raven go faster to Dragonstone. MAGIC IS REAL MORTY!"
Except, Jon doesn't know anything about the Three Eyed Raven and spelling something out like that is just god awful storytelling.
Writing yourself into a corner where you have no viable way of making this part of the story make the least bit of sense is bad story telling - the wirters are paid hell of a lot of money not to do that.
Run to the wall and send a raven was stupid, insulting and pathetic - run back across zombie polar bear infested wilderness, on snow, somewhere I have never been and having passed through snowstorms and the like. Yeah thats good story telling.
Ouze wrote: What was the rush? The Night's King has all the time in the world to sit there and wait for them to freeze to death. I also rather like that he's completely emotionless but YMMV.
D'ya think we'll ever hear him speak?
"I hope not" and "no". It would take a big chunk away from his other-ness. I mean, he's functionally a runaway biological WMD. There wouldn't really be, to my thinking, a reason to speak with a human.
Again, I'm not going to freak out about raven and dragon flight times on their own. It's fantasy...they can take a mulligan here or there. The thing for me is that the contrivances through the entire sequence stack up, culminating in using Benjen as a deus ex machina and discarding him, all in service of ACTION beyond all else. It's possible to rewrite the sequence in a cleaner, less cliched manner that serves the characters better.
If you like the show right now for the dragon action, that's fine and your perogative. But once upon a time, the story was more focused on the relationships between people. IMO.
In a sign that the apocalypse is near, I agree with Morden that the chemistry between Jon and Daenerys doesn't seem *quite* believable right now. And I think that's simply because they haven't had many scenes together in which they weren't only talking 'business'. The actors are fine, but that relationship -- like so many other things in the show right now -- needs more time to breathe IMO.
Ouze wrote: What was the rush? The Night's King has all the time in the world to sit there and wait for them to freeze to death. I also rather like that he's completely emotionless but YMMV.
D'ya think we'll ever hear him speak?
"I hope not" and "no". It would take a big chunk away from his other-ness. I mean, he's functionally a runaway biological WMD. There wouldn't really be, to my thinking, a reason to speak with a human.
But what if they got...oh, I dunno...James Spader? They could have him do his Ultron voice. Which of course was James Spader doing James Spader.
Ouze wrote: What was the rush? The Night's King has all the time in the world to sit there and wait for them to freeze to death. I also rather like that he's completely emotionless but YMMV.
D'ya think we'll ever hear him speak?
"I hope not" and "no". It would take a big chunk away from his other-ness. I mean, he's functionally a runaway biological WMD. There wouldn't really be, to my thinking, a reason to speak with a human.
I am always a big fan of the moment of realization when the big antagonist realizes all is lost*. I, for one, would love to hear the NK howl a scream of inhuman contemplation when his final death blow is struck. Oh, I am sure it will happen, but whether he screams or not is the only question for me.
* Star Wars so totally and absolutely blew this with Emperor Palpatine - Richard Marquand should never have worked in Hollywood again after that blunder...
Ouze wrote: What was the rush? The Night's King has all the time in the world to sit there and wait for them to freeze to death. I also rather like that he's completely emotionless but YMMV.
D'ya think we'll ever hear him speak?
"I hope not" and "no". It would take a big chunk away from his other-ness. I mean, he's functionally a runaway biological WMD. There wouldn't really be, to my thinking, a reason to speak with a human.
I am always a big fan of the moment of realization when the big antagonist realizes all is lost*. I, for one, would love to hear the NK howl a scream of inhuman contemplation when his final death blow is struck. Oh, I am sure it will happen, but whether he screams or not is the only question for me.
* Star Wars so totally and absolutely blew this with Emperor Palpatine - Richard Marquand should never have worked in Hollywood again after that blunder...
Eh? The Emperor screams as Vader carries him over to the shaft and throws him in.
gorgon wrote: Again, I'm not going to freak out about raven and dragon flight times on their own. It's fantasy...they can take a mulligan here or there. The thing for me is that the contrivances through the entire sequence stack up, culminating in using Benjen as a deus ex machina and discarding him, all in service of ACTION beyond all else. It's possible to rewrite the sequence in a cleaner, less cliched manner that serves the characters better.
I do not think Benjen was used as a deus ex machina in this instance. In fact, I think the whole sequence of Jon not getting on the Dragon, falling in the lake and being left behind was written specifically to 'end' Benjen's tale. They knew they weren't going to have any other opportunity to come back to do anything else with Benjen, and just having him wandering beyond doing nothing for all eternity would not have been a great ending for the character. So they have almost certainly for a while been trying to figure out how to 'wrap up' Benjen's story, and as soon as they had this expedition beyond the wall it makes it obvious that Benjen should come and die trying to save the cause, thereby giving his existence a little more relevance, and also closing the book on him as a character in the show.
From there it would only be a question of 'how' would Benjen come and save the day by sacrificing himself...and then you work the pieces backward from there and you get Jon sacrificing himself to draw the dead away from the Dragon, Jon being left behind, and finally Jon being saved by Benjen.
If Cold Hands had never existed as a character, you can bet the sequence would have played out slightly differently.
This may have been touched on, I confess I've scan read a lot of the posts about this weeks Ep, but has it actually been established how long Jon and co were in the middle of the lake by those criticising the timing?
Because they're in the North, and it's Winter. We see them on that rock from nightfall to sunrise, but even in real life Earth a polar night can exceed 24 hours, so in magical Westeros there's every plausible chance that a night, north of the wall, during winter, could last for days.
Azreal13 wrote: This may have been touched on, I confess I've scan read a lot of the posts about this weeks Ep, but has it actually been established how long Jon and co were in the middle of the lake by those criticising the timing?
Because they're in the North, and it's Winter. We see them on that rock from nightfall to sunrise, but even in real life Earth a polar night can exceed 24 hours, so in magical Westeros there's every plausible chance that a night, north of the wall, during winter, could last for days.
The director said 'one long night'.
And if you want to believe that one night really means much longer than one night, then you bump into the reality of them simply freezing to death as they were standing there with no fire.
Ultimately, its just something you have to ignore and know that they sacrificed a bit of travel time 'reality' in order to keep the story moving and the stakes high. Dany and her Dragons needed to go to the North, and the only way that was going to happen is if Jon and Jorah were in peril beyond the wall. So if they didn't pull this little trick of ignoring distances, then they would have had to come up with some other equally (IMHO) ridiculous reason to have them stranded up beyond the wall for days waiting for the Dragons to hopefully arrive.
This was the much better choice (again IMHO), because it allowed the point of the story to unfold continuously, and kept the tension of the scene intact.
Magic is cool, but then use magic - don't just go - "run to the wall and use a raven" - thats laughably bad writing.
What did you want him to do? "Run to the wall, my brother the Three Eyed Raven is a Worg and he will make the raven go faster to Dragonstone. MAGIC IS REAL MORTY!"
Except, Jon doesn't know anything about the Three Eyed Raven and spelling something out like that is just god awful storytelling.
Writing yourself into a corner where you have no viable way of making this part of the story make the least bit of sense is bad story telling - the wirters are paid hell of a lot of money not to do that.
Run to the wall and send a raven was stupid, insulting and pathetic - run back across zombie polar bear infested wilderness, on snow, somewhere I have never been and having passed through snowstorms and the like. Yeah thats good story telling.
Well, since I just explained how all of this was possible with in world logic, I fail to see how they have written themselves in to a corner. Even then, it could easily be explained in the next episode by Bran talking to Sansa or Arya about Jon and his expedition north. I think you just forget there is in all powerful worg in the show who can control people/animals over long distances as well as time.
Also, one single undead bear does not make for "zombie polar bear infested wilderness". I would assume if there was more out there roaming around to eat intruders, they would have descended upon the only group of living people north of the wall quite quickly.
gorgon wrote: Again, I'm not going to freak out about raven and dragon flight times on their own. It's fantasy...they can take a mulligan here or there. The thing for me is that the contrivances through the entire sequence stack up, culminating in using Benjen as a deus ex machina and discarding him, all in service of ACTION beyond all else. It's possible to rewrite the sequence in a cleaner, less cliched manner that serves the characters better.
I do not think Benjen was used as a deus ex machina in this instance. In fact, I think the whole sequence of Jon not getting on the Dragon, falling in the lake and being left behind was written specifically to 'end' Benjen's tale. They knew they weren't going to have any other opportunity to come back to do anything else with Benjen, and just having him wandering beyond doing nothing for all eternity would not have been a great ending for the character. So they have almost certainly for a while been trying to figure out how to 'wrap up' Benjen's story, and as soon as they had this expedition beyond the wall it makes it obvious that Benjen should come and die trying to save the cause, thereby giving his existence a little more relevance, and also closing the book on him as a character in the show.
From there it would only be a question of 'how' would Benjen come and save the day by sacrificing himself...and then you work the pieces backward from there and you get Jon sacrificing himself to draw the dead away from the Dragon, Jon being left behind, and finally Jon being saved by Benjen.
If Cold Hands had never existed as a character, you can bet the sequence would have played out slightly differently.
Then find two more minutes of episode time to give Benjen a better sendoff, since his reunion with Jon is full of symbolism and meaning. Losing the pointless zombie bear gets you about 60 alone. They're making storytelling decisions almost completely based on plot advancement and kewls. It's getting us a breakneck pace and lots of crowdpleasing moments. But it also seems shallow since the tradeoffs include characters and sense.
It's also not as if this is some problem that Martin gave them that the showrunners had to 'solve'. *They* introduced Coldhands (the altered Benjen) LONG after the point at which he first appeared in the books. It was cool to finally see him onscreen, and have his identity confirmed since it was a mystery in the books. But this episode clearly showed they had no plan for the character. They just threw him in for kewls and fan service, like far too many other things in the show lately.
Again, the show is great brain candy right now, but if you can't see how different it is from the earlier seasons, I don't really know what to say. I'm hardly the only one saying this. It was never a 'turn off your brain and watch the SFX' kind of show back then. In a way, this is great news for Martin, since people might still buy his future books (if they ever happen) looking for a less rushed, more satisfying ending. They certainly won't be rushed, at least.
I will say that I'm giving the showrunners the benefit of the doubt regarding Arya and Sansa. Their melodrama is probably manufactured to make Littlefinger think his whispers are working. It's hardly the most ingenious deception that the show has seen, but we have to take what we can get right now.
gorgon wrote: Again, the show is great brain candy right now, but if you can't see how different it is from the earlier seasons, I don't really know what to say. I'm hardly the only one saying this.
I think this is fair. I'm one of the people who is happy to handwave away stuff that just isn't really important, like how ravens and dragons fly at the speed of plot, but I will also freely concede that the tempo of this season has increased to the point that the plot is starting to suffer a bit. I don't mean fixating on how fast so and so can fly, and why didn't we see so-and-so on a boat for 3 episodes, because who cares, I mean stuff like Benjen's death. I am OK with what they did but I feel like that could have been just a little bit longer. I feel like if they could have even gotten 1 or 2 more episodes this season it might have made a huge difference, and I wonder if season 8 is also going to be like this.
After having watch each episode multiple times I can saty that, while I get what people are saying about the show. It can ll be boiled down to the fact that we are missing 3 episodes. All the pacing and story and problems can be boiled down to that. Given how this is HBO biggest show I place the blame solely on them. They should of just given the money needed to get a full 10 episodes and most of these criticisms would be gone.
gorgon wrote: It's also not as if this is some problem that Martin gave them that the showrunners had to 'solve'. *They* introduced Coldhands (the altered Benjen) LONG after the point at which he first appeared in the books. It was cool to finally see him onscreen, and have his identity confirmed since it was a mystery in the books. But this episode clearly showed they had no plan for the character. They just threw him in for kewls and fan service, like far too many other things in the show lately.
No, he ended up saving both the 3-eyed Raven and Jon Snow, two people who will certainly be pivotal to the end game of the show.
You can say having Cold Hands in the show was just 'fan service', but the character did disappear in the beginning of the show, so it was nice touch having him come back to save Bran and again to sacrifice himself to save Jon. Not every single character needs to have a full arc and development. Benjen/Cold Hands (in the show) was always just a minor character, so there is nothing wrong with having him perform what he saw as his 'duty' after being turned (to save the Starks necessary to stop the White Walkers).
Again, the show is great brain candy right now, but if you can't see how different it is from the earlier seasons, I don't really know what to say. I'm hardly the only one saying this. It was never a 'turn off your brain and watch the SFX' kind of show back then. In a way, this is great news for Martin, since people might still buy his future books (if they ever happen) looking for a less rushed, more satisfying ending. They certainly won't be rushed, at least.
There is obviously a huge difference between the way the show is now and how it was in the first few seasons, but I do object to it just being 'brain candy'. The pacing and style of the show is intentionally getting faster and more action-packed because the show is obviously building up to an actual world-defining event. So to have the story continue to move at the pace it did in the earlier seasons at this point would be absolute agony. Things are supposed to be getting tense and exciting on a regular basis. The days of strolling around and making secret plans are becoming fewer and more far between because its time for those end game plans to take effect. The entire pace of the story has changed to reflect that.
I honestly do not believe that GRRM will ever finish another book after the Winds of Winter. Because he has written himself so far into too many corners that there's simply no way for him to finish the story in the number of books he thought he could. Instead, he just keeps adding more and more pages to his books desperately trying to wind back to a place where he can get to his imagined endgame.
gorgon wrote: Again, the show is great brain candy right now, but if you can't see how different it is from the earlier seasons, I don't really know what to say. I'm hardly the only one saying this.
I think this is fair. I'm one of the people who is happy to handwave away stuff that just isn't really important, like how ravens and dragons fly at the speed of plot, but I will also freely concede that the tempo of this season has increased to the point that the plot is starting to suffer a bit. I don't mean fixating on how fast so and so can fly, and why didn't we see so-and-so on a boat for 3 episodes, because who cares, I mean stuff like Benjen's death. I am OK with what they did but I feel like that could have been just a little bit longer. I feel like if they could have even gotten 1 or 2 more episodes this season it might have made a huge difference, and I wonder if season 8 is also going to be like this.
Season 8 will be 6 episodes (instead of the 7 eps they had this season).
But at a rumored 80 minutes per episode, it works out to about 8!
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Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Given how this is HBO biggest show I place the blame solely on them. They should of just given the money needed to get a full 10 episodes and most of these criticisms would be gone.
I don't think it was a money thing at all. I think Benioff and Weiss want to move on - every discussion has been around HBO trying to get as much of the show as possible, and the 2 showrunners wanting to wrap it up. I'm pretty sure HBO would have take as much as they would make - HBO programming execs explicitly said they want more, as much as 10 seasons.
“I think they’re trying to get a shape of the season,” HBO programming president Casey Bloys said. “They always do what they think [will yield] the best version of the show. It’s all about how many they’re comfortable [with]. But I’ll always take more.”
“This is the hard part of what we do,” sighs HBO programming president Michael Lombardo. “We started this journey with David and Dan. It’s their vision. Would I love the show to go 10 years as both a fan and a network executive? Absolutely.”
GoT has been such a hit for HBO they flat out have said they don't care if people pirate the show. They've spent more money on shows that weren't a fraction as popular. GoT is a huge driver of subscriptions for them.
The negotiation over season 8 was a stretch because apparently the showrunners wanted to flat out end it in season 7, and HBO is hoping they can negotiate one more reason this year - barring that they're looking at potentially 4 spinoffs. Not the acts of penny pinchers.
gorgon wrote: In a sign that the apocalypse is near, I agree with Morden that the chemistry between Jon and Daenerys doesn't seem *quite* believable right now. And I think that's simply because they haven't had many scenes together in which they weren't only talking 'business'. The actors are fine, but that relationship -- like so many other things in the show right now -- needs more time to breathe IMO.
The show has always done fine despite it's two central heroes being two of its weakest actors. Because they were both surrounded by excellent character actors they were carried. Now the two of them have come together and need to build a believable romance, and it ain't happening so far.
Ouze wrote: I don't think it was a money thing at all. I think Benioff and Weiss want to move on - every discussion has been around HBO trying to get as much of the show as possible, and the 2 showrunners wanting to wrap it up. I'm pretty sure HBO would have take as much as they would make - HBO programming execs explicitly said they want more, as much as 10 seasons.
“I think they’re trying to get a shape of the season,” HBO programming president Casey Bloys said. “They always do what they think [will yield] the best version of the show. It’s all about how many they’re comfortable [with]. But I’ll always take more.”
“This is the hard part of what we do,” sighs HBO programming president Michael Lombardo. “We started this journey with David and Dan. It’s their vision. Would I love the show to go 10 years as both a fan and a network executive? Absolutely.”
GoT has been such a hit for HBO they flat out have said they don't care if people pirate the show. They've spent more money on shows that weren't a fraction as popular. GoT is a huge driver of subscriptions for them.
The negotiation over season 8 was a stretch because apparently the showrunners wanted to flat out end it in season 7, and HBO is hoping they can negotiate one more reason this year - barring that they're looking at potentially 4 spinoffs. Not the acts of penny pinchers.
You're dead right that HBO wants GoT to continue on indefinitely if it can, which is why they're looking into spin-offs, and it is true that the showrunners want the show to end at 8 seasons. However, I disagree that if they simply wanted/needed more money per ep, they could get it.
HBO does have a budget for each show, and so much they're willing to give for each episode. The GoT showrunners clearly wanted/needed more money per episode and suddenly the seasons are now getting less and less episodes. Yes, HBO would have let them make 10 episodes this season if they wanted, but not for the price each episode is currently costing. That's the key. Its the scope/cost of each episode now that means the overall budget designated for the season of GoT means they have to do less episodes.
yakface wrote: I do not think Benjen was used as a deus ex machina in this instance. In fact, I think the whole sequence of Jon not getting on the Dragon, falling in the lake and being left behind was written specifically to 'end' Benjen's tale. They knew they weren't going to have any other opportunity to come back to do anything else with Benjen, and just having him wandering beyond doing nothing for all eternity would not have been a great ending for the character. So they have almost certainly for a while been trying to figure out how to 'wrap up' Benjen's story, and as soon as they had this expedition beyond the wall it makes it obvious that Benjen should come and die trying to save the cause, thereby giving his existence a little more relevance, and also closing the book on him as a character in the show.
From there it would only be a question of 'how' would Benjen come and save the day by sacrificing himself...and then you work the pieces backward from there and you get Jon sacrificing himself to draw the dead away from the Dragon, Jon being left behind, and finally Jon being saved by Benjen.
I agree the motive was primarily to wrap up Benjen's story arc. I think that's actually the motivation for a lot of what we've seen so far this season - they're trying to wrap up loose ends while still keeping everything hurtling towards a conclusion. It's why the Martell and Tyrell houses were wrapped so summarily, with neither making much sense when you think about it*. It's just that those events were told well enough, and contained enough surprises (Cersei is back in the game!) that we didn't mind. Whereas Benjen's sudden appearance and arbitrary decision to commit pointless suicide was clunky.
*Highgarden fell to siege so quickly that a raven couldn't reach Danaerys before the walls were breached? And so what if Dorne lost its new leader to a naval ambush - the army still exists and whoever now led would be even more motivated to continue fighting.
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gorgon wrote: Then find two more minutes of episode time to give Benjen a better sendoff, since his reunion with Jon is full of symbolism and meaning. Losing the pointless zombie bear gets you about 60 alone. They're making storytelling decisions almost completely based on plot advancement and kewls. It's getting us a breakneck pace and lots of crowdpleasing moments. But it also seems shallow since the tradeoffs include characters and sense.
The answer wasn't add more Benjen screen time, but to include him in the events already underway. Have him arrive sooner, tell them their plan is stupid, maybe even have him arrive to help fight the polar bear. Then Benjen can sacrifice himself in a more organic way, maybe dying in order to let everyone else reach the frozen island, or to let them
It's also not as if this is some problem that Martin gave them that the showrunners had to 'solve'. *They* introduced Coldhands (the altered Benjen) LONG after the point at which he first appeared in the books. It was cool to finally see him onscreen, and have his identity confirmed since it was a mystery in the books. But this episode clearly showed they had no plan for the character. They just threw him in for kewls and fan service, like far too many other things in the show lately.
They introduced Coldhands late, but Benjen was right there at the start, his early mentoring was key to developing Jon's character, and the investigation of his disappearance was the starting point for everything that happened with the Night's Watch. The reveal of Benjen as Coldhands was a way of continuing that story, which then led to needing some kind of resolution to that story. Benjen dying to save Jon is a perfectly good resolution to that story, it's just they bungled the execution.
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Ouze wrote: I think this is fair. I'm one of the people who is happy to handwave away stuff that just isn't really important, like how ravens and dragons fly at the speed of plot
I remember when mobile phones started becoming common it was pointed out how films either ignored them or invented weak reasons to have people fail to use them. People had little idea how to write stories were communication was instant.
A couple of decades later and it seems we are struggling to write stories where instantaneous communication isn't possible
Magic is cool, but then use magic - don't just go - "run to the wall and use a raven" - thats laughably bad writing.
What did you want him to do? "Run to the wall, my brother the Three Eyed Raven is a Worg and he will make the raven go faster to Dragonstone. MAGIC IS REAL MORTY!"
Except, Jon doesn't know anything about the Three Eyed Raven and spelling something out like that is just god awful storytelling.
Writing yourself into a corner where you have no viable way of making this part of the story make the least bit of sense is bad story telling - the wirters are paid hell of a lot of money not to do that.
Run to the wall and send a raven was stupid, insulting and pathetic - run back across zombie polar bear infested wilderness, on snow, somewhere I have never been and having passed through snowstorms and the like. Yeah thats good story telling.
Well, since I just explained how all of this was possible with in world logic, I fail to see how they have written themselves in to a corner. Even then, it could easily be explained in the next episode by Bran talking to Sansa or Arya about Jon and his expedition north. I think you just forget there is in all powerful worg in the show who can control people/animals over long distances as well as time.
Also, one single undead bear does not make for "zombie polar bear infested wilderness". I would assume if there was more out there roaming around to eat intruders, they would have descended upon the only group of living people north of the wall quite quickly.
There was two bears in the attack - one died and the other dragged someone off and disappeared. We had the bear running towards, chasing the scout and then the other one attacked as the first one approached.
Why would there be only one bear - special effects costs aside - I assumed that the dead are killing everything and anything useful and animating it - we have seen Mammoths, Giants and bears and now a Dragon, If they could afford it there would be wolves and ravens etc.
Yes they could have written something with Bran and Sansa or the like - they didn't, its very lazy writing that resulted in the pathetic "run to the wall and send a raven" - as I said very happy with normal travel being condensed and hand waved with "time passes" but they set up a scene in which time was a fundamental part of the tension and then ignored it cos reasons - mainly - nah lets focus on a Zombie bear attack - that's cool.
The whole Benjin thing was either to show how Jon's repeated stupidity gets people killed (which is a recurring theme) or again just dull writing. Yeah we know his magic horse can carry several people but nah lets get rid of him- he is only fan service.
I agree the motive was primarily to wrap up Benjen's story arc. I think that's actually the motivation for a lot of what we've seen so far this season - they're trying to wrap up loose ends while still keeping everything hurtling towards a conclusion. It's why the Martell and Tyrell houses were wrapped so summarily, with neither making much sense when you think about it*. It's just that those events were told well enough, and contained enough surprises (Cersei is back in the game!) that we didn't mind. Whereas Benjen's sudden appearance and arbitrary decision to commit pointless suicide was clunky.
*Highgarden fell to siege so quickly that a raven couldn't reach Danaerys before the walls were breached? And so what if Dorne lost its new leader to a naval ambush - the army still exists and whoever now led would be even more motivated to continue fighting.
Excellent points - now we know that magic ravens can ply at the speed of plot. Quite happy that Benin is gone - he was yet another deus ex machine but it was very very poor execution - which sums up the last episode.
Hoping for better things for next one.
The days of strolling around and making secret plans are becoming fewer and more far between because its time for those end game plans to take effect. The entire pace of the story has changed to reflect that.
And what was the best bit of the last episode myself and very many if not all of my friends? The Fellowship strolling around and the banter between them.
Ouze wrote: What was the rush? The Night's King has all the time in the world to sit there and wait for them to freeze to death. I also rather like that he's completely emotionless but YMMV.
D'ya think we'll ever hear him speak?
"I hope not" and "no". It would take a big chunk away from his other-ness. I mean, he's functionally a runaway biological WMD. There wouldn't really be, to my thinking, a reason to speak with a human.
I am always a big fan of the moment of realization when the big antagonist realizes all is lost*. I, for one, would love to hear the NK howl a scream of inhuman contemplation when his final death blow is struck. Oh, I am sure it will happen, but whether he screams or not is the only question for me.
* Star Wars so totally and absolutely blew this with Emperor Palpatine - Richard Marquand should never have worked in Hollywood again after that blunder...
Eh? The Emperor screams as Vader carries him over to the shaft and throws him in.
That is not the moment of realization for the Emperor. He never properly realized that the Endor moon base station had been destroyed and the shield was now gone.
The answer wasn't add more Benjen screen time, but to include him in the events already underway. Have him arrive sooner, tell them their plan is stupid, maybe even have him arrive to help fight the polar bear. Then Benjen can sacrifice himself in a more organic way, maybe dying in order to let everyone else reach the frozen island, or to let them
Yes, so much of this. It's not that they brought Benjin back to conclude his arc that's the issue, it's that it was such a throwaway momentary intervention. Shorten the bear scene - instead of watching multiple guys get mauled in a blizzard, watch one guy get mauled then have the bear go right at Jon and then just as it leaps you hear hooves and the birling whoosh sound of that fire flail thing and BAM double-dead bear. Use the saved minutes to add a couple of talky scenes between Benjin and Jon before they reach the army of the dead. In the end, have Jon be wounded rather than derping around until he falls through the ice, and have the last shot of the lake being wounded Job looking down from the dragon's back as it takes flight while Benjin holds back the dead and finally goes down.
As to folk sneering about using magic being just as silly as Gendry's Raven Express - guff, and it could have been used to provide yet more of the character-focused material that's made GoT so good: instead of having Thoros be a chewtoy for the bear, wait until they're trapped on the lake and then play into the dodgy side of the Lord of Light - he and Beric get a scene and Thoros reveals he can save them all, but only at the cost of his own life; they desperately scrabble through their packs for enough material to make a small fire, and Thoros does some really dark-lookin' blood magic crap to send Dany a message through the flames(short aside scene in Dragonstone where she becomes entranced by a brazier during a convo with Tyrion and then stomps off looking determined). Thoros still dies, but his death both extracts another solid character moment between him and Beric and lets the writers set up their Dragon Ex Machina without expecting the viewer to switch off their higher brain functions.
This is what folk are saying when they criticise how things are playing out in the show at the moment - it's not the concept of the pace increasing towards a crescendo that's the issue, it's the execution that's lacking. It's perfectly possible to write a version of GoT that's much snappier than the first few seasons but still stays true to the core tone of the piece and still leaves room for plenty of character drama in between the 'splosions.
gorgon wrote: In a sign that the apocalypse is near, I agree with Morden that the chemistry between Jon and Daenerys doesn't seem *quite* believable right now. And I think that's simply because they haven't had many scenes together in which they weren't only talking 'business'. The actors are fine, but that relationship -- like so many other things in the show right now -- needs more time to breathe IMO.
The show has always done fine despite it's two central heroes being two of its weakest actors. Because they were both surrounded by excellent character actors they were carried. Now the two of them have come together and need to build a believable romance, and it ain't happening so far.
Neither of them are among the strongest actors on the show, but I think they're capable of pulling off a romance. We just need to see them have a couple moments together where they aren't talking conquest and undead, and doing the 'guarded royalty' thing. Jon and Ygritte mostly worked. Part of that was the natural chemistry from the personality differences and resulting friction, but they also had moments where they were just behaving like normal people (given the setting). We got maybe a smidge of that in the bedside scene, but we're also led to believe that these two are already in love at that point when there's no apparent reason that they should be.
sebster wrote: They introduced Coldhands late, but Benjen was right there at the start, his early mentoring was key to developing Jon's character, and the investigation of his disappearance was the starting point for everything that happened with the Night's Watch. The reveal of Benjen as Coldhands was a way of continuing that story, which then led to needing some kind of resolution to that story. Benjen dying to save Jon is a perfectly good resolution to that story, it's just they bungled the execution.
Yeah, I think everyone *fully understands* the showrunners' motivation, but the execution was terrible. Terrible. Jon and Benjen should have had a real moment together. It doesn't have to be a lot of screen time. Let them have that talk that was promised way back in the first season. Let Jon have some closure to something that was an important motivator for the character in earlier seasons, as you said. But I understand that the show is being written for people who don't remember who Benjen is anyway, and just want to see dragon action. I don't have to like it though. I liked the show that had a very long memory, not the one that can't be bothered.
Benjen definitely suffers from a truncated closure. I'd have been much happier with an exposition campfire before the wights catch up with them on the way back to the wall.
Yeah, I think everyone *fully understands* the showrunners' motivation, but the execution was terrible. Terrible. Jon and Benjen should have had a real moment together. It doesn't have to be a lot of screen time. Let them have that talk that was promised way back in the first season. Let Jon have some closure to something that was an important motivator for the character in earlier seasons, as you said. But I understand that the show is being written for people who don't remember who Benjen is anyway, and just want to see dragon action. I don't have to like it though. I liked the show that had a very long memory, not the one that can't be bothered.
Which, again, does not seem to be an issue with the Showrunners. It has to do with HBO not giving them the extra 30 million they needed for a full 10 episodes. Its their Biggest show and a guaranteed money maker and they pull this? All on HBO really.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I won't lie Yodhrin, I liked the episode, but I like yours more.
Aye. I think a campfire and extra 5 might urges tacked on episode for them to catch up. Also showcase the change from he lasting meeting him as a young recruit to nights watch and still almost a kid to a king and leader of the North.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I won't lie Yodhrin, I liked the episode, but I like yours more.
Aye. I think a campfire and extra 5 might urges tacked on episode for them to catch up. Also showcase the change from he lasting meeting him as a young recruit to nights watch and still almost a kid to a king and leader of the North.
And guess what? That doesn't cost $10 million extra dollars. There are *writing* solutions to some of this that don't involve more money or threaten the pace and ending.
Also, Yodhrin and I being in agreement is surely the SECOND sign of the apocalypse.
They really needed to kill a dragon anyway, or else there really wouldn't be a point to keep the show dragging on. Three dragons can roast the Lannister forces without issue, they can roast the entire undead army without any problems, and honestly the show should have been over as soon as the army with giant dragons landed on the shore.
So for the show to have any kind of tension about who would win, the odds needed to be equalized. Cersei has anti-dragon AA, the "good guys" have two dragons, and Team Frost has a dragon and a kickass field and track team.
d-usa wrote: They really needed to kill a dragon anyway, or else there really wouldn't be a point to keep the show dragging on. Three dragons can roast the Lannister forces without issue, they can roast the entire undead army without any problems, and honestly the show should have been over as soon as the army with giant dragons landed on the shore.
So for the show to have any kind of tension about who would win, the odds needed to be equalized. Cersei has anti-dragon AA, the "good guys" have two dragons, and Team Frost has a dragon and a kickass field and track team.
At this rate it's more team incest VS team ice.
GoT because we just Don t care anymore what happens in that universe.
d-usa wrote: They really needed to kill a dragon anyway, or else there really wouldn't be a point to keep the show dragging on. Three dragons can roast the Lannister forces without issue, they can roast the entire undead army without any problems, and honestly the show should have been over as soon as the army with giant dragons landed on the shore.
So for the show to have any kind of tension about who would win, the odds needed to be equalized. Cersei has anti-dragon AA, the "good guys" have two dragons, and Team Frost has a dragon and a kickass field and track team.
It still came across as rushed though. Nothing in that scene made sense
- Why take 3 dragons this time? Why didn't she take 3 dragons against the lannisters?
- Why would the Night King target an airborne dragon instead of, you know, the stationary one with the people he's trying to kill?
- Why is Jon such a dumbass? I mean, he was fighting away from the evac, instead of towards. It made sense at first, he was trying to clear the take off zone, but then he just runs off and wastes everyone's time.
It would have had a lot more dramatic impact if they took off, the Night King tried nailing them but one of the dragons intercepted the javelin, sacrificing itself in the process. There, sense made in one line.
If the next episode is the last one I wouldn't get my hopes up. I can tell its going to rushed.
... so this prophecy about Cersei being killed by one of her children.
It's just for her yeah ? No chance it could in fact be about Dany ?
... didn't think so.
The prophecy only specifies that a Valonqar ("Younger sibling") will kill her, not that it will necessarily be one of her children...Cersei believes it to be Tyrion. But it could also be Jaime. It could be Arya. It could be anyone.
Overall I really enjoyed the episode. So my take on some of the issues;
Benjen knew how close to death Jon was and two full grown and armored men on a horse massively slow it down. Hence no time. Benjen has literally been a plot device from season/book one and he seems to be around just to help the other starks. Besides it gives jon and bran something to discuss later.
I handwave the dragon travel thing. It was silly fast but if the Internet hadn't blown up about it I probably wouldn't have noticed.
I have felt subtle interest from both leads in every discussion including the first one. I've actually really enjoyed dany obviously trying to hide behind her queen status to create distance. Jon has seemed far more focused but his earnest looks could be doing the same. What I'm saying is I think both actors are creating a believable interest in each other. Especially because they both share duty and values but compliment the others extremes fairly well.
I'm liking this season. I expected tormund to go down but am glad he didnt. I'm hoping arya is playing a long game on little finger and that the girls bond over it once they realize they both were. Next week should be interesting!
I feel like people are really sleeping on Beric and Jon's conversation. Jon's entire arc since he was raised is that he is finding trouble caring about anything, and he has a constant desire to put himself in dangerous situations. Jon seems to have this moment of clarity when he says "Maybe that's enough" with a smile on his face. I think in this moment Jon becomes the old Jon again, or at least moves in that general direction. He has a purpose again: he will be the shield that guards the realms of men because what else would he do? He's the hero.
Also the season has given us a few examples of men without fear finding a woman and becoming vulnerable because of their fear of losing that woman. Greyworm says it to Missande, and even Tormond finally looks shaken in the fight, screaming "help me" as he is being dragged into the frozen lake. I don't think it's a coincidence that he tells the Hound of his love for Brienne soon before this happens. This is a problem Jon has already confronted and beat with Regards to Ygritte. Love is the death of duty but Jon doesn't seem to suffer from that flaw as the other characters do as he already overcame it when he went back to the watch.
We'll see what happens tonight....and man am I ready to be emotionally devastated.
... so this prophecy about Cersei being killed by one of her children.
It's just for her yeah ? No chance it could in fact be about Dany ?
... didn't think so.
The prophecy is that Cersei would have three children but that they would all die before her. Then she would be killed by "little brother".
However...
Given that we basically now have two opposing forces, both foreign to Westeros (if the Golden Company hints are true), led by "mad queens" (mad eyebrows do count...) who are both in an incestuous relationship... well that kind of mirroring could be taken as foreshadowing. Makes me nervous for Dany AND her dragons.
Also the season has given us a few examples of men without fear finding a woman and becoming vulnerable because of their fear of losing that woman. Greyworm says it to Missande, and even Tormond finally looks shaken in the fight, screaming "help me" as he is being dragged into the frozen lake. I don't think it's a coincidence that he tells the Hound of his love for Brienne soon before this happens. This is a problem Jon has already confronted and beat with Regards to Ygritte. Love is the death of duty but Jon doesn't seem to suffer from that flaw as the other characters do as he already overcame it when he went back to the watch.
We'll see what happens tonight....and man am I ready to be emotionally devastated.
Maybe Jon dedication to duty will be tested again when he is forced to thrust Longclaw Light-bringer into Daenerys' Nissa Nissa's heart.
Mr Morden wrote: Also Jon is not very bright - he might have forgotten.
Jon, yes, Tarly no. You'd think that as soon as Jon mentioned they need obsidian Tarly would go "oh yeah, Stannis said something about there being dragonglass on dragonstone."
Speaking of Dragonstone, why was it deserted? I'm not talking about hundreds of men, just 20. A good fortress is designed to be easily defended by a few number of men. I know hollywood likes to shove as many soldiers in castles as possible, but really that would be counterproductive to the function of a castle, as if you need thousands of men to make defending it viable then you won't have any forces to go on the defensive.
Hell, they even said that Winterfell only needs like what, 100 men? 20 men?
I really don't like the improvised writing. The series was its strongest when it followed the books, but as soon as the writers starting to do their own thing that's when the stupid started.
Desertion? When the garrison heard of Stannis' defeat and death in the North and the complete obliteration of his army, there would have been incentive for them to remain at their post in the service of a now deceased King with no Heir. I imagine they would have taken a boat and slunk off back to their homes in the Stormlands, or integrated back into the general population of Kings Landing and the Crownlands.
Mr Morden wrote: Also Jon is not very bright - he might have forgotten.
Jon, yes, Tarly no. You'd think that as soon as Jon mentioned they need obsidian Tarly would go "oh yeah, Stannis said something about there being dragonglass on dragonstone."
Speaking of Dragonstone, why was it deserted? I'm not talking about hundreds of men, just 20. A good fortress is designed to be easily defended by a few number of men. I know hollywood likes to shove as many soldiers in castles as possible, but really that would be counterproductive to the function of a castle, as if you need thousands of men to make defending it viable then you won't have any forces to go on the defensive.
Hell, they even said that Winterfell only needs like what, 100 men? 20 men?
I really don't like the improvised writing. The series was its strongest when it followed the books, but as soon as the writers starting to do their own thing that's when the stupid started.
Dragonstone needs a fair garrison but it's well designed. It's is not a small castle. Not the biggest but dragonstone is a fair sized fortress even with its natural isolated location, cliffs and walls up to the coastline.
Castley rock a supposed impenetrable fortress has no moat and you can get army to foot of wall easily...
Dtagonsyone is almost harder to capture.
Also dragonstone needs ships and such to supply it. Aka someone worth resources. Hardly see nay farm land there. It's all cliff top and rugged mountains. Best you farm there is sheep.
Desertion? When the garrison heard of Stannis' defeat and death in the North and the complete obliteration of his army, there would have been incentive for them to remain at their post in the service of a now deceased King with no Heir. I imagine they would have taken a boat and slunk off back to their homes in the Stormlands, or integrated back into the general population of Kings Landing and the Crownlands.
So...why didn't the Lannisters just move in? I mean, they basically just gave Dany a free castle.
Desertion? When the garrison heard of Stannis' defeat and death in the North and the complete obliteration of his army, there would have been incentive for them to remain at their post in the service of a now deceased King with no Heir. I imagine they would have taken a boat and slunk off back to their homes in the Stormlands, or integrated back into the general population of Kings Landing any d the Crownlands.
So...why didn't the Lannisters just move in? I mean, they basically just gave Dany a free castle.
I Don, t know.
Before Danny it was a barathian castle they took off targerians and during rebellion Stannis was the one who held it I believe.
After Stannis. It fell empty till Danny took the fortress in.
Though it is isolated. And dragonstone commands very few vassals VS the storm lands proper.
Dragonstone is powerful location but not a mighty family seat like castley, winter fell, eyre. And high garden who had a powerful group of banner men loyal.
Desertion? When the garrison heard of Stannis' defeat and death in the North and the complete obliteration of his army, there would have been incentive for them to remain at their post in the service of a now deceased King with no Heir. I imagine they would have taken a boat and slunk off back to their homes in the Stormlands, or integrated back into the general population of Kings Landing any d the Crownlands.
So...why didn't the Lannisters just move in? I mean, they basically just gave Dany a free castle.
I Don, t know.
Before Danny it was a barathian castle they took off targerians and during rebellion Stannis was the one who held it I believe.
After Stannis. It fell empty till Danny took the fortress in.
Though it is isolated. And dragonstone commands very few vassals VS the storm lands proper.
Dragonstone is powerful location but not a mighty family seat like castley, winter fell, eyre. And high garden who had a powerful group of banner men loyal.
Well it was the family seat of the mightest Family before they invaded and took over Westros.
I would have thought it would have been mroe attractive to the Iron Born myself - having a storng castle, good port and decent position to raid anyone they like. Probbaly just that everyone was too busy to expend resources on it
The series was its strongest when it followed the books, but as soon as the writers starting to do their own thing that's when the stupid started.
Well they adapted all the decent books and rightly ignored the dross that was the later novels. I do agree that there is much more - "don;t worry abotu stuff just get on with it even when they could have written better to get to the same point.
Desertion? When the garrison heard of Stannis' defeat and death in the North and the complete obliteration of his army, there would have been incentive for them to remain at their post in the service of a now deceased King with no Heir. I imagine they would have taken a boat and slunk off back to their homes in the Stormlands, or integrated back into the general population of Kings Landing any d the Crownlands.
So...why didn't the Lannisters just move in? I mean, they basically just gave Dany a free castle.
I Don, t know.
Before Danny it was a barathian castle they took off targerians and during rebellion Stannis was the one who held it I believe.
After Stannis. It fell empty till Danny took the fortress in.
Though it is isolated. And dragonstone commands very few vassals VS the storm lands proper.
Dragonstone is powerful location but not a mighty family seat like castley, winter fell, eyre. And high garden who had a powerful group of banner men loyal.
Well it was the family seat of the mightest Family before they invaded and took over Westros.
I would have thought it would have been mroe attractive to the Iron Born myself - having a storng castle, good port and decent position to raid anyone they like. Probbaly just that everyone was too busy to expend resources on it
The series was its strongest when it followed the books, but as soon as the writers starting to do their own thing that's when the stupid started.
Well they adapted all the decent books and rightly ignored the dross that was the later novels. I do agree that there is much more - "don;t worry abotu stuff just get on with it even when they could have written better to get to the same point.
It is a formidable fortress. And a big one. It has impressive defences of Targerian wrought stone work. It's very well built.
However present dragonstone did not have alot of banner men. Storm lands had the banner men under renley.
Stannis had dragonstone. Powerful fortress, but but low banner men. In right hands, oh its a utter pain the preverbial donkey to capture.
Reley when he declared at first took all the good Lords and armies for himself. Stannis early on had to scrape and scrounge until he used the blood magic to kill him and turn thr army to his command.
Post Targerian dragonstone was not as powerful or influential as baratithian era fortress.
The logistics of maintaining it would be terrific and until Daenerys showed up it was pretty worthless. During a civil war it would have value. Cersie certainly didn't expect a foreign power to show up.
I liked the episode overall, but found it unrealistic how Jamie went from full armor in the map room, to casual incognito clothes about a mile out of the city in just a few moments. This show has jumped the shark entirely with its pacing.
nels1031 wrote: I liked the episode overall, but found it unrealistic how Jamie went from full armor in the map room, to casual incognito clothes about a mile out of the city in just a few moments. This show has jumped the shark entirely with its pacing.
So magically cold frosty breath is what was needed to bring down the wall? Not flaming hot ice melting dragon fire? While I understand the need to drive the plot forward just how strong is frosty breath? Does the dragon fire melt and shatter entire stone fortresses at a pass? While dragon fire certainly cooked a bunch of Lanisters it seemed nowhere near as brutally effective as frosty cold somehow melting through something the size of a mountain.
I'd think adding extra frosty cold would make more snow and the ice might grow? Maybe make a nice ice ramp up the wall? But explode it? These GOT physics are baffling indeed.
paulson games wrote: So magically cold frosty breath is what was needed to bring down the wall? Not flaming hot ice melting dragon fire? While I understand the need to drive the plot forward just how strong is frosty breath? Does the dragon fire melt and shatter entire stone fortresses at a pass? While dragon fire certainly cooked a bunch of Lanisters it seemed nowhere near as brutally effective as frosty cold somehow melting through something the size of a mountain.
I'd think adding extra frosty cold would make more snow and the ice might grow? Maybe make a nice ice ramp up the wall? But explode it? These GOT physics are baffling indeed.
They were just doing quick straffing runs before, where the blue eyes wight dragon was using more continuous, sustained fire in one concentrated area.
paulson games wrote: So magically cold frosty breath is what was needed to bring down the wall? Not flaming hot ice melting dragon fire? While I understand the need to drive the plot forward just how strong is frosty breath? Does the dragon fire melt and shatter entire stone fortresses at a pass? While dragon fire certainly cooked a bunch of Lanisters it seemed nowhere near as brutally effective as frosty cold somehow melting through something the size of a mountain.
I'd think adding extra frosty cold would make more snow and the ice might grow? Maybe make a nice ice ramp up the wall? But explode it? These GOT physics are baffling indeed.
From what I saw it was less cold, per se, and more impactful - it seemed more like it was destroying the wall like a hammer vs melting.
Beric Dondarrion: The Lord brought you back, and he brought me back. No one else. Just us. Did he do it to watch us freeze to death? ... I've been waiting for the end for a long time. Maybe the Lord brought me here to find it?
