Do you know what size bases the basilisk artillery platform has? I don't even think they sell the model anymore. I was thinking of using my knight titan bases. But Dunecrawler bases could also be the right bases.
Patrol Detachment - 110
1x Lord Castellan Creed - Warlord: Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila
10x Cadian Infantry - Lasgun
110 points for +2 CP, and a 33% chance of +1 CP whenever uses a stratagem.
That or you can stick 1 Lucius troop unit or 3 of any other type in. (Nobody needs their dogma or to be repaired, but deep striking might come in handy.)
SInce I played with the Monitor Malevolus I can assure you that its, at least in my opinion, the most useful WL trait for Admech. Especially if you are only running 7 CPs on your own. Against any opponent you most likely will have somewhere between 8 and 12 CPs based on your luck. I dont see the need of adding Imperials into this but this is just me. I play competitively and I want my AdMech army to be 100% AdMech. Stuff like Assassins is okay in my book but I really have to see the need for a whole nother detachment (from a different army) to include it into my list. Which I dont see atm.
Hm. So it's 6+ for 1 CP and reroll repairs OR 5+ for 1 CP. I suppose it hinges on how useful the Guard you're adding is. As seen above, the cheapest option is 70 points... though if you bring vehicles, that is a different matter...
Once per battle, you can re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll or damage roll made for your Warlord. In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you or your opponent use a Stratagem; on a 6, you gain a Command Point
My bad, I was using pre-release rules summaries. I must have got it wrong.
EDIT: No, I was right?
that's the guard version, i'm talking about our version.
Inspired by ph34r and incorporating all the soup because that appears to be our only alternate for not only variety at the moment (come on FW, give us Fires!).
Souped Up AdMech - Mars, Elysians, and Cadians
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead 1CP
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array
[130]
[1320]
Elysian Vanguard 1CP
HQ:
Elysian Company Commander
Plasma Pistol
[45]
Elysian Company Commander
Plasma Pistol
[45]
Elites:
Elysian Command Squad
4x Plasma Guns
[56]
Elysian Command Squad
4x Plasma Guns
[56]
Elysian Special Weapon Squad
3x Plasma Guns
[51]
Elysian Special Weapon Squad
3x Plasma Guns
[51]
[304]
Cadian Spearhead 1CP
HQ:
Company Commander
Kurov's Aquila, Grand Strategist
[30]
Elites:
Commissar
Bolt Pistol
[31]
Troops:
(25) Conscripts
[75]
Heavy:
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
[376]
[2000]
Cadians - Re-roll hit rolls of 1 in Shooting when unit did not move (Earthshakers)
Kurov's Aquila - 5+ to gain 1 CP when opponent uses Strategem
Grand Strategist - 5+ on each CP used on Strategems to refund.
6 CP starting with these strategems up for use:
Binharic 1CP (mandatory)
Wrath 2CP (duh)
OFOF 2CP (situational)
I think Conscripts are a solid first line of speedbump. I see the logic in Elysian Snipers, but they are such small squads I just think we need that real tarpit. The Elysian contingent will be a T1 or T2 strike force meant to either take down must-kill targets we can reach or come in second turn to smash stuff that is exposed after turn one shooting. Thanks to the Relics/Warlord trait, I should get back 1CP from my initial Wrath and Binharic, so while 6 CP starting is slim, it is like having about 8 CP really. Wrathbots and double Neutronagers standard, plus an Icarus just in case someone gets flyer frisky. Triple Earthshakers because good god those are powerful and the idea of modelling them as AdMech for the whole Ordo Reductor slant is pretty fantastic (with Tech-Thralls for Conscripts and whatnot). The Elysians may be best modelled as Elysians, just to avoid further confusion. 30 Plasma Shots re-rolling ones off the drop should help really cause some hurt.
I think this is a solid, competitive way to for us to go without staying in faction (which I think we have hashed out rather well already).
Start them right at the front but within 9" Cawl bubble
Target a vehicle of value
Do maybe 4 or 5 hits resulting in D6 or 2d6 unsaved damage and make opponent worried about ignoring them "those things almost killed my x!"
They get charged and tie something up for a turn or two.
Not great but more threatening than some vanguard. For the points they should be!!
Since i roll agrapinaa I'm considering running a full unit of nine (full by agrapinaa Fresh converts rules). Dominus for rerolls of 1 and a unit of bots for elimination protocol.
Still probably sub par but hey myrmidons are slick
Written a list for my semi-competitive battles, using a Stygies Brigade. The idea is to use the 'pretty good' AdMech units (not the super good OP ones) and then buff with constant stratagems?
Heavy Support
Onager Dunecrawler – neutron laser, cognis heavy stubber 140
Onager Dunecrawler – neutron laser, 2 cognis heavy stubbers 145
Onager Dunecrawler – icarus array 130
1498
12CP
Use the recover CP WT, unsure about the relic. Maybe the one that boosts vehicle healing.
I'd use 2CP to infiltrate 2 units of Dragoons and the infiltrators would do the same for free. Then hopefully I've got some big hitters up front and some big firepower at the back.
Thoughts?
If they could all take guns, they would be a decent choice. Shame GW dropped the ball (again...).
word
[rant] i mean seriously has anyone ever even been able to use the servo arms? Ever. It's 4 wounds at t3 anything that charges the unit wipes it out and your left wondering why they even exist. The only way to ever use them would be to charge.... with a unit primarily used to shoot. Two attacks will kill nothing and the unit you charged wipes them out. Not to mention even if you could use them they're useless on a ws 5+ model[/rant]
If you're only taking an icarus on the off chance of there being flyers, would it not be more prudent to take another neutronager and just doctrina boost a unit to hit a flyer?
Octovol wrote: If you're only taking an icarus on the off chance of there being flyers, would it not be more prudent to take another neutronager and just doctrina boost a unit to hit a flyer?
I guess. Not having to burn CP on something, even when I can recover some, is not something I want to do. I'd much rather be pumping out Wrath every turn. I've had an Icarus Onager drop a flyer in one turn - when its hot, its hot. I think one is the right amount if you are taking three, with two Neutronagers basically mandatory.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Servitors are the worst unit in the game BTW.
Even the testers admited that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, you can't use Fresh Converts on a unit of 9 Destroyers as they are over 20PL
oh right because that's +20 not 20. Man kataphrons really needed a boost and got left holding the bag. Maybe I'll just keep the gks for now and wait for fires to come out
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Inspired by ph34r and incorporating all the soup because that appears to be our only alternate for not only variety at the moment (come on FW, give us Fires!).
Souped Up AdMech - Mars, Elysians, and Cadians
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead 1CP
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array
[130]
[1320]
Elysian Vanguard 1CP
HQ:
Elysian Company Commander
Plasma Pistol
[45]
Elysian Company Commander
Plasma Pistol
[45]
Elites:
Elysian Command Squad
4x Plasma Guns
[56]
Elysian Command Squad
4x Plasma Guns
[56]
Elysian Special Weapon Squad
3x Plasma Guns
[51]
Elysian Special Weapon Squad
3x Plasma Guns
[51]
[304]
Cadian Spearhead 1CP
HQ:
Company Commander
Kurov's Aquila, Grand Strategist
[30]
Elites:
Commissar
Bolt Pistol
[31]
Troops:
(25) Conscripts
[75]
Heavy:
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
[376]
[2000]
Cadians - Re-roll hit rolls of 1 in Shooting when unit did not move (Earthshakers)
Kurov's Aquila - 5+ to gain 1 CP when opponent uses Strategem
Grand Strategist - 5+ on each CP used on Strategems to refund.
6 CP starting with these strategems up for use:
Binharic 1CP (mandatory)
Wrath 2CP (duh)
OFOF 2CP (situational)
I think Conscripts are a solid first line of speedbump. I see the logic in Elysian Snipers, but they are such small squads I just think we need that real tarpit. The Elysian contingent will be a T1 or T2 strike force meant to either take down must-kill targets we can reach or come in second turn to smash stuff that is exposed after turn one shooting. Thanks to the Relics/Warlord trait, I should get back 1CP from my initial Wrath and Binharic, so while 6 CP starting is slim, it is like having about 8 CP really. Wrathbots and double Neutronagers standard, plus an Icarus just in case someone gets flyer frisky. Triple Earthshakers because good god those are powerful and the idea of modelling them as AdMech for the whole Ordo Reductor slant is pretty fantastic (with Tech-Thralls for Conscripts and whatnot). The Elysians may be best modelled as Elysians, just to avoid further confusion. 30 Plasma Shots re-rolling ones off the drop should help really cause some hurt.
I think this is a solid, competitive way to for us to go without staying in faction (which I think we have hashed out rather well already).
If you're taking two Company Commanders, you might as well bring 2x Elysian Drop Trooper Squad and move the Conscripts up for Battalion? (Cadian Conscripts aren't much more impressive than no-doctrine Conscripts.) Anyhow, I think 2 CP is worth more than four more plasma guns.
If you're taking two Company Commanders, you might as well bring 2x Elysian Drop Trooper Squad and move the Conscripts up for Battalion? (Cadian Conscripts aren't much more impressive than no-doctrine Conscripts.) Anyhow, I think 2 CP is worth more than four more plasma guns.
Well, I would only need one Drop Trooper Squad, since the Conscripts would be a troop choice, but where would I find the points without sacrificing something more useful?. Also, I thought there would be a drawback or something because Conscripts aren't able to be Elysians, but apparently there is no drawback to breaking battle-forged (as Elysians) with them that I can tell (unless I am missing or forgetting something). Not really jazzed with the Drop Trooper Squad though, honestly.
In other words, I would be bending over backwards to fit them in just to get 2CP more. I should be able to squeeze off Wrath for three rounds and Binharic once off my current CP (with just 1 CP regen). Not sure its worth it bumping the Elysians to a Battalion for one more Wrath, really.
Well, to be fair, we have discussed AdMech to death. Most conversation now will be on the next 'Dex and what it offers us or what challenges it brings.
Plus, the Guard 'Dex is pretty brutally powerful and ours isn't, so we can borrow to max out our competitive potential.
Oh my god, “Cyraxus” is now a part of my phone’s autocorrect because I’ve said it so many times. That really tells you something about the current state of the army.
Unfortunately GW gave us a book where a solid Half of our units and the majority of our Forge World Dogma are just cold garbage. So, we must make use of the tools we have! For me this means including allied Guard units, and building them with conversions to make them all Adeptus Mechanicus.
luckily however skitarii make for decent looking guardsmen and leman russ tanks look damn good painted up in red.
and anyone wants to give us crap for it i point you to the fluff that states skitarii range from anything from guard to genebulked humanoids with weaponized limbs.
oh and tech thralls make perfect conscripts and using skitarii as guard and tech thralls as conscripts is a good way to make the two look distinct.
Yeah, I think I was overdoing it on the snipers. I turned 6 of the guys into another elysian special weapon squad. 15 sniper rifles now. I still think that is pretty good character threat. I am running 15 skitarii foot guys for the battalion +2cp and I don't think I need conscripts with 15 skitarii foot and 15 2 wound sniper bases and 2 dragoons.
Have you guys checked out the new ITC missions? They heavily reward killing marked targets and taking distant objectives. Objectives are often scored at the end of player turn or end of round. This means that going second and having a lot of deep strike squads is going to be key for scoring. If you aren't running deep strike allies, I think competitive lists are going to need two dragoon units. Solo admech right now just can't take those distant objectives.
Yeah, I think I was overdoing it on the snipers. I turned 6 of the guys into another elysian special weapon squad. 15 sniper rifles now. I still think that is pretty good character threat. I am running 15 skitarii foot guys for the battalion +2cp and I don't think I need conscripts with 15 skitarii foot and 15 2 wound sniper bases and 2 dragoons.
Have you guys checked out the new ITC missions? They heavily reward killing marked targets and taking distant objectives. Objectives are often scored at the end of player turn or end of round. This means that going second and having a lot of deep strike squads is going to be key for scoring. If you aren't running deep strike allies, I think competitive lists are going to need two dragoon units. Solo admech right now just can't take those distant objectives.
Well we've got Stygies and Lucius for this. Just think about porting 30 inches with that shiny little Lucius relic. Very cool.
Dragoons are a must, you are absolutely right. What I dont think is a need of a deep strike ally since we can drop anything we want and not just units with the the deep strike rule. This is something we have use to our advantage.
If you're taking two Company Commanders, you might as well bring 2x Elysian Drop Trooper Squad and move the Conscripts up for Battalion? (Cadian Conscripts aren't much more impressive than no-doctrine Conscripts.) Anyhow, I think 2 CP is worth more than four more plasma guns.
Well, I would only need one Drop Trooper Squad, since the Conscripts would be a troop choice, but where would I find the points without sacrificing something more useful?. Also, I thought there would be a drawback or something because Conscripts aren't able to be Elysians, but apparently there is no drawback to breaking battle-forged (as Elysians) with them that I can tell (unless I am missing or forgetting something). Not really jazzed with the Drop Trooper Squad though, honestly.
In other words, I would be bending over backwards to fit them in just to get 2CP more. I should be able to squeeze off Wrath for three rounds and Binharic once off my current CP (with just 1 CP regen). Not sure its worth it bumping the Elysians to a Battalion for one more Wrath, really.
Do Elysians rules stop working if the entire detachment isn't Elysian? I don't think it states that in my index...
That being said, I just discovered that Tank Commander is an Officer now. So what about running the 211 point Dakka Lemon (Punisher with 3x Heavy Bolter)? Vostroyan for 30" Punisher and 42" Heavy Bolters. Tallarn for the ability to move and shoot? (Another plus: That Enginseer you pay as a tax in a Stygies Outrider now has a good use.)
Quick question though: Does anyone with a Guard codex know if Tank Commanders can order themselves yet?
well, INcontrol won a RTT without any help from Imperial Guard. This was before the possible changes on the ITC missions which were basically not discussed yet.
Iago40k wrote: well, INcontrol won a RTT without any help from Imperial Guard. This was before the possible changes on the ITC missions which were basically not discussed yet.
This is true. But even he conceded that his list is not optimal yet.
Anyhow, I personally think it's important to consider how we can exploit the Guard codex. I'm not looking to do majority Guard or Imperium Soup, but a Tank Commander has some synergy with our HQs due to repairs, and Grand Strategist + Kurov's Aquila definitely is better than what we've got.
Suzuteo wrote: Quick question though: Does anyone with a Guard codex know if Tank Commanders can order themselves yet?
They can.
Though who knows if that gets changed in an FAQ again.
Great! So what do people think of that Lemon builds?
The Punisher + 3x Heavy Bolter that I mentioned above is 29 shots of Conscript-chewing dakka. Toss-up between Tallarn and Vostroyan Regiments for that setup.
A Vostroyan Executioner + 2x Plasma Gun + 1x Heavy Bolter (or go 3x Heavy Bolter) is also pretty cool; 42" range on all of the guns. Tank Order + Vostroya Stratagem makes overheating almost impossible. It's also fluffy, since Vostroya is one of the only Forge Worlds not ruled by the Cult Mechanicus, and Executioners are now used almost exclusively by Ryzan Skitarii; the few that remain are all millenia-old heirlooms.
Many tours including some big one require single faction. And no I don't mean imperium. Currently two in my area and one for quilf round single faction so have a solo ad mech list just in case.
For me 250 points are changed from my pure ad mech towards my soup. Don't need more guard than a basic screen and the warlord trait with relic. Rest I can find better in ad mech atm.
I said already my opinion for in control he is testing . The lists can be better with neutronagers priests and a bit less Robots. More options flexibility and not so much different play. Close but still better. Priests neutronagers dragoons snipers extremely good atm for most enemies.
Suzuteo wrote:
Do Elysians rules stop working if the entire detachment isn't Elysian? I don't think it states that in my index...
Not that I saw, but I thought so at first - hence the Conscripts in the Cadian detachment.
Wulfey wrote:
-em
Yeah, I think I was overdoing it on the snipers. I turned 6 of the guys into another elysian special weapon squad. 15 sniper rifles now. I still think that is pretty good character threat. I am running 15 skitarii foot guys for the battalion +2cp and I don't think I need conscripts with 15 skitarii foot and 15 2 wound sniper bases and 2 dragoons.
Have you guys checked out the new ITC missions? They heavily reward killing marked targets and taking distant objectives. Objectives are often scored at the end of player turn or end of round. This means that going second and having a lot of deep strike squads is going to be key for scoring. If you aren't running deep strike allies, I think competitive lists are going to need two dragoon units. Solo admech right now just can't take those distant objectives.
I don't do ITC rules, nor does my LGS. At least, not purely.
Suzuteo wrote: Great! So what do people think of that Lemon builds?
Think it depends what your intent is. Cadia and Vestroyan go well enough with the rest of the heavy support units siting back hoping not to get charged.
Catachan Is pretty sweet if trying to add in some reliable LOS ignoring artillery.
Tallarn is good if you are wanting more stuff to throw into the mix to be more mobile. Even without Ambush, being able to move and fire with no Heavy Weapon penalty is really sweet.
For me its just coming down to investment. I like a good 1500 pt core of Ad Mech. So initially im looking to spend right around 500 points on Guard. Spamming russes eats that 500 up fairly fast, especially with a tank commander of any sort. So I was looking more at Tallarn for more mobility and the option to Ambush if setup is looking good for it. Hellhounds and scout sentinels were my thoughts.
I haven't put any numbers down yet though. And Ambushing without taking that Guard in a brigade to pay for itself really hurts the CP pool.
Has anyone ever tried an all dominus list. I've thought abou a list with 4-5 dominii and a handful of repairable support to make a constantly repairing army buy it screams "stupid ideas" funny interesting but stupid.
gendoikari87 wrote: Has anyone ever tried an all dominus list. I've thought abou a list with 4-5 dominii and a handful of repairable support to make a constantly repairing army buy it screams "stupid ideas" funny interesting but stupid.
Anyone ever attempted it?
No, but it sounds hilarious good fun. Probably not "competitive" in the sense of cleaning house at tournaments, but seems like it'd be a very tough list for game night, and not the typical "tournament prep" list you see or just random assortment of stuff either.
Yeah I was thinking 5 dominii with volkites with 6 eradication onagers with chs throw them in a couple spearheads or just go balls to the wall crazy and go 9 dominii with eradication thingingies and throw the. In lucious or stigies and scatter then around the board like the assassin lists retreat the ones that survive to heal back to full advance the ones they couldn't shoot before keep them within 3" of each other so they can heroic intervention each other.
Probably get stomped but it'd be a fun list for a turn or two
Oh here's a fun idea 10 robots in units of 2 5 datasmiths and a dominus in a stygies spearhead vanguards. Good ? No. Good for a laugh ? Yeah
I mean, sure whatever. Fun is fun, people will have fun in whatever weird way they want. Just seems like garbage to me. Dominus shooting is just terrible.
Also I'm assuming vorax will be a good substitute for dragoons if you face meq. Fast probably going to get more wounds. Decent shooting power weapons but not as good anti tank.
Really hoping the thanatars are worth taking with the giant lascannon and it's not just a lascannon. Or darkfire lascannon whatever they call it.
Super hoping the myrmidons are not crap. They don't have to be good just don't be as crap as kataphrons.
What units are going to be useful? I have zero clue what any of the Mechanicum units are or if they are good.
We won't know for sure until we see stats and points, but Triaros seem like a no-brainer for a faction without transports.
Maybe there will be a new HQ option or three (Macrotek, Magos, ArchMagos).
Oh no. My Macroteks are being used as Enginseers. I guess I will have options...?
And here's hoping Secutarii are good. Though if Thallaxes have a 24" no-Deep Strike bubble, I will be using those instead. Also, if Automata are actually affordable (or not awful), maybe we will finally have Brigades; Agripinaa may also become viable.
And yes, there is the possibility of transports... but a part of me thinks that GW doesn't want us to have them. Maybe I have just normalized the neglect. Also, it would make Electro-Priests more viable, but I hate how they look.
What units are going to be useful? I have zero clue what any of the Mechanicum units are or if they are good.
We won't know for sure until we see stats and points, but Triaros seem like a no-brainer for a faction without transports.
Maybe there will be a new HQ option or three (Macrotek, Magos, ArchMagos).
Oh no. My Macroteks are being used as Enginseers. I guess I will have options...?
And here's hoping Secutarii are good. Though if Thallaxes have a 24" no-Deep Strike bubble, I will be using those instead. Also, if Automata are actually affordable (or not awful), maybe we will finally have Brigades; Agripinaa may also become viable.
And yes, there is the possibility of transports... but a part of me thinks that GW doesn't want us to have them. Maybe I have just normalized the neglect. Also, it would make Electro-Priests more viable, but I hate how they look.
The Triaros was teased in the art for FoC by FW. Honestly, I am hoping for more high toughness shooty models and cheap, fearless Tech-Thralls, so we can double-down on our strategy.
Plus, a new FW means new traits and stuff. Lets hope we get more than just the default Mars and Stygies as viable options.
Being able to use stratagems from all lists just because you got a detachment in you army made a soup list 100x better than a simple faction list. The options are just not even close to measurable.
I know it was already better to have guard for the relics and easy cp s and I planned to use gems from all books but this confirmation is just all 7th again. We gonna see broken lists easily.
I was talking about Tank Commander with a friend today, and he pointed out that if I'm taking him for the CP recycling, then Valhalla would work better:
Valhallan Patrol Detachment - 287
HQ - 197 Tank Commander - Battle Cannon, 1x Heavy Bolter
Troop - 90 30x Conscripts
Standard battle tank setup for Valhalla; move and shoot the main gun only. Valhalla doubles your wounds on the damage table, which lets your Tank Commander be more durable and capable of fleeing.
A max blob of Conscripts fulfills the Troop requirement. It doesn't need a Commissar because of the Regiment doctrine, and you can always Send in the Next Wave!
Plus, Valhalla fits my sky-blue paint scheme. But that's a personal reason.
I am told other setups to consider are Catachan or Vostroyan Plasma Executioner, and Tallarn Punisher with 2x Heavy Bolter sponsons.
ph34r wrote: So lets see, what Astra Militarum Stratagems should we use?
Preliminary Bombardment 2cp
Each enemy unit, d6, on a 6 they take 1 mortal wound
Take Cover! 1cp
+1 to any one of our units' saving throws (this includes invulnerable)
That is all that I can see that apply to non-Astra Militarum.
Since you have to have a detachment of AM to even use the Stratagems, I would use the one to give out an extra relic so we can make use of Kurovs Aquila on an officer.
Since, apparently, using a Stratagem overrides having to have your Warlord be from a specific army to get access to their Relics. Helps with the CP management a bit.
Holy hell TAKE COVER is overpowered. Wow. No one post that on Facebook please. My Kastelons don't want that FAQd.
"Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Shooting phase when your opponent selects one of your units as a target. You can add 1 to saving throws you make for this unit until the end of the phase."
EDIT: and yes, to be competitive you want as many mono-faction detachments as possible. Why not use guard strategems with admech strategems? Your army is just better by having a few hundred points of guard. TAKE COVER is just ridiculous. GW can't proofread for crap.
EDIT2: disagree on the strategem granting a non-warlord relic. The strategem says one EXTRA relic. That means you need a first relic to get to the EXTRA. And you can't get that first relic unless your warlord is from the relic's faction.
Marius Xerxes wrote: Since, apparently, using a Stratagem overrides having to have your Warlord be from a specific army to get access to their Relics. Helps with the CP management a bit.
Is that true? Very interesting.
If your army is led by an ADEPTUS MECHANICUSWarlord, then before the battle you may give one of the following Arcana Mechanicum to an ADEPTUS MECHANICUS CHARACTER. Named characters such as Belisarius Cawl already have one or more artefacts and cannot be given any of the following relics.
Note that some weapons replace one of the character’s existing weapons. Where this is the case, if you are playing a matched play game or are otherwise using points values, you must still pay the cost of the weapon that is being replaced. Write down any Arcana Mechanicum your characters have on your army roster.
ARCHEOTECH SPECIALISTS
Adeptus Mechanicus Stratagem
Within the techno-vaults there lie many mechanised wonders that can be requisitioned during times of war.
Use this Stratagem before the battle. Your army can have one extra relic from the Arcana Mechanicum for 1 CP, or two extra relics for 3 CPs. All of the relics that you include must be different and be given to different ADEPTUSMECHANICUS CHARACTERS. You can only use this Stratagem once
The question is, does "one extra" imply that you could only take "one extra" if you "may give one of the following Arcana Mechanicum to an ADEPTUS MECHANICS CHARACTER" in the first place?
EDIT: I guess ultimately the answer doesn't matter to me because my warlord is an Astra Militarum Company Commander and all the Mechanicus relics are Complete And Utter Trash so I have no reason to want to give my Mars Battalion's Enginseer any relic at all.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and
I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of
Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death
Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to
Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard
Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
Now while this comes from the Death Guard Codex FAQ, its general terms answer makes me feel this is their intent system wide.
What do you think about taking the 'laurels of command' as your second relic via 1CP? On a 4+ you get a second order on a target. Over the course of the game that is like 5 times 1 unit gets to reroll 1s to wound. Hmmm seems kinda lame.
Wulfey wrote: What do you think about taking the 'laurels of command' as your second relic via 1CP? On a 4+ you get a second order on a target. Over the course of the game that is like 5 times 1 unit gets to reroll 1s to wound. Hmmm seems kinda lame.
Its best on a Company commander in a larger IG detachment, since they issue two order they get the possiblily to hand out 4 orders and with IG we usually have more orderable units than officers so having extra orders is never a bad thing.
So if your looking at a main AM force it can be worth it but for conscript bubblewrap and objective anchors there are better choices.
Wulfey wrote: What do you think about taking the 'laurels of command' as your second relic via 1CP? On a 4+ you get a second order on a target. Over the course of the game that is like 5 times 1 unit gets to reroll 1s to wound. Hmmm seems kinda lame.
I'm definitely in favor of it at this point. This is the list I will be running this weekend:
Wow GW screwed so much with the Stratagems thing I can't believe it. Since the start of 8th they tell us "we will reward fluffy, themed armies" and then they make doctrinas Detachment-wide instead of army-wide, so we're stuck with Imperial soup forever, and now they allow us to use Stratagems that clearly weren't meant to be used in another armies, because they probably balanced these for their own codex, not half the game's codices. This just feels like badly written rules in an amateur indie game, not GW. Seriously what the hell ?
Aaranis wrote: Wow GW screwed so much with the Stratagems thing I can't believe it. Since the start of 8th they tell us "we will reward fluffy, themed armies" and then they make doctrinas Detachment-wide instead of army-wide, so we're stuck with Imperial soup forever, and now they allow us to use Stratagems that clearly weren't meant to be used in another armies, because they probably balanced these for their own codex, not half the game's codices. This just feels like badly written rules in an amateur indie game, not GW. Seriously what the hell ?
Did an FAQ come out or are you talking about the FLG podcast?
Aaranis wrote: Wow GW screwed so much with the Stratagems thing I can't believe it. Since the start of 8th they tell us "we will reward fluffy, themed armies" and then they make doctrinas Detachment-wide instead of army-wide, so we're stuck with Imperial soup forever, and now they allow us to use Stratagems that clearly weren't meant to be used in another armies, because they probably balanced these for their own codex, not half the game's codices. This just feels like badly written rules in an amateur indie game, not GW. Seriously what the hell ?
Did an FAQ come out or are you talking about the FLG podcast?
Marius Xerxes wrote:Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and
I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of
Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death
Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to
Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard
Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
Now while this comes from the Death Guard Codex FAQ, its general terms answer makes me feel this is their intent system wide.
Aaranis wrote: Wow GW screwed so much with the Stratagems thing I can't believe it. Since the start of 8th they tell us "we will reward fluffy, themed armies" and then they make doctrinas Detachment-wide instead of army-wide, so we're stuck with Imperial soup forever, and now they allow us to use Stratagems that clearly weren't meant to be used in another armies, because they probably balanced these for their own codex, not half the game's codices. This just feels like badly written rules in an amateur indie game, not GW. Seriously what the hell ?
Aaranis wrote: now they allow us to use Stratagems that clearly weren't meant to be used in another armies
It is extremely clear to me that GW intentionally, deliberately made "Take Cover!" able to be used on non-Astra-Militarum units. The other 20 or so Stratagems in the Astra Militarum book specify keyword restrictions very clearly. This is intentional.
Now, as to the "we will reward fluffy, themed armies"....... well, all the Doctrinas are Garbage LOL. The only real Doctrina is "Doctrina: you can take Cawl so your army doesn't suck".
I fully expect to NEVER EVER see a Graia, Metalica, Lucius, Agripinaa, or Ryza army in real life. It's a fething disgrace to be sure.
EDIT: Remember guys, we might get a new Dogma for Forge World: Cyraxus. As long as Fires of Cyraxus hasn't come out yet, it could be anything! It could fix all our problems!
Where are you taking that list out? I am taking a similar list to Game Empire in Pasadena California.
This is what I was thinking. I still don't have a good earthshaker proxy. Maybe next week in time for SoCal Open. I have more screening units and special weapons and dragoons. You have those cannons and an extra special weapons team.
Say it's my shooting phase and I've already used the reroll stratagem and now I want to fire a neutron onager at a flyer.
So because it's hard to hit I want to use the protector stratagem but do I have to activate that before I roll d3 amount of shots?
The thought process is that if I roll 1 shot I have another neutron onager that might roll 2 or 3. and it'd be less of a waste.
you can't really say GW isn't rewarding fluffy armies when guard are winning by sacrificing hoards of guardsmen to the meatgrinder and using artillery to blast stuff off the board.
Say it's my shooting phase and I've already used the reroll stratagem and now I want to fire a neutron onager at a flyer.
So because it's hard to hit I want to use the protector stratagem but do I have to activate that before I roll d3 amount of shots?
The thought process is that if I roll 1 shot I have another neutron onager that might roll 2 or 3. and it'd be less of a waste.
You pretty much never use the reroll stratagem anymore, but to answer your question, the codex specifies that you can only use it before you attack.
gendoikari87 wrote: you can't really say GW isn't rewarding fluffy armies when guard are winning by sacrificing hoards of guardsmen to the meatgrinder and using artillery to blast stuff off the board.
That's like saying Tyranids win because of Hive Tyrants and not Termagaunts. Every unit has a role to play.
Wulfey wrote: What do you think about taking the 'laurels of command' as your second relic via 1CP? On a 4+ you get a second order on a target. Over the course of the game that is like 5 times 1 unit gets to reroll 1s to wound. Hmmm seems kinda lame.
I'm definitely in favor of it at this point. This is the list I will be running this weekend:
Phobos and no grey knights allies? For for shame sir for shame.
Also anyone have any details on what forces get sent out when the phobos tech guard accompany the grey knights? I can't imagine they'd use skitarii I'm assuming servitors and bots
gendoikari87 wrote:Phobos and no grey knights allies? For for shame sir for shame.
Also anyone have any details on what forces get sent out when the phobos tech guard accompany the grey knights? I can't imagine they'd use skitarii I'm assuming servitors and bots
The Grey Knights got given Deimos, Mars still has Phobos I'm pretty sure!
em_en_oh_pee wrote:I think you mean 6 Robots, not 2x3, right?
In my last game I ran 6 in one unit and had a hard time getting them proper lines of sight. My gaming group might use more terrain than the average 40k player. The robots extremely overkilled everything they were shooting at, and then were left with not a ton of great targets, and the Iron Warriors fell back away from 36" range. Worth noting it was the deployment zones where you fight long-ways across the table, and it was a Maelstrom objective mission.
So, next game I will probably have one unit move forward for 1 turn while the other unit stays stationary and immediately opens fire.
Wulfey wrote:-ph34r
Where are you taking that list out? I am taking a similar list to Game Empire in Pasadena California.
This is what I was thinking. I still don't have a good earthshaker proxy. Maybe next week in time for SoCal Open. I have more screening units and special weapons and dragoons. You have those cannons and an extra special weapons team.
Thoughts on broad spectrum data tether for vanguard.
My list is infantry heavy because I love the skitarii models, so I have 3 vanguard squads, each with 2 plasma calivers.
I have the points to make them all either 7 man squads with a data teather, or 8 man squads without. With our bad leadership the tether feels like a safe bet, but not sure if one extra guy would work out to be more useful.
em_en_oh_pee wrote:I think you mean 6 Robots, not 2x3, right?
In my last game I ran 6 in one unit and had a hard time getting them proper lines of sight. My gaming group might use more terrain than the average 40k player. The robots extremely overkilled everything they were shooting at, and then were left with not a ton of great targets, and the Iron Warriors fell back away from 36" range. Worth noting it was the deployment zones where you fight long-ways across the table, and it was a Maelstrom objective mission.
So, next game I will probably have one unit move forward for 1 turn while the other unit stays stationary and immediately opens fire.
The issue would be that your list is then illegal, because you have four Heavy slots.
For that specific deployment, you might want to spend a turn in Aegis and advance up. Depending on the mission and whatnot. If they are coming to you or to the center of the table, maybe just make sure you can cover that before going for the BO.
em_en_oh_pee wrote:[The issue would be that your list is then illegal, because you have four Heavy slots.
For that specific deployment, you might want to spend a turn in Aegis and advance up. Depending on the mission and whatnot. If they are coming to you or to the center of the table, maybe just make sure you can cover that before going for the BO.
Conflabbit you're right. For whatever reason I was thinking Battalions could have 4 or something, but they just get 6 elites.
Danny slag wrote:Sad that there's more talk about imperial guard in this thread than ad mech.
Yeaaaaahhhhhh :/
It's the hand we've been dealt. There are just so many units in our book that are straight up awful. Our Dogmas, once thought to possibly show up and make our bad units viable, are basically all terrible, and did not fix this problem.
There are many battles that we v seen in fluff novels stories expansions that the imperium unite to face enemies.
Unfortunately since our codex is what it is most likely you LL have a soup list. We have already talked about admech codex for all details extensively. And there is talk 2-3 threats back before this one 100+ pages .
And I m currently playing solo adeptus mechanicus since most smaller tours don't allow multi factions and imperium considered to be one.
That said I wanted to say I got almost identical lists with guard and without guard and I don't find so many differences as you might believe. And if we exclude from the talk the obvious battalion. Warlord 5+ 5+ trait and relic that is cheat for many armies the rest are not so extreme to replace our army.
Ok troops ok relic ok warlord but there it stops in most cases.
Why would I decide not to pick dragoons to infiltrate and take 77 point tempestus drop? For??? No regiment buff expensive for what? 2-5 plasma shots when a dragoon will get buffs healing even can screen can attack -2 being hit etc.
Let's say a basilisk vs onager or a Russ. It's close maybe some options but you need to stack . Won't change my army from my 3 onagers to 3 Russ. And it's more expensive and different while I still consider onagers tougher .
Same goes for various options I v tried to include and finally I see
V few valid options that will actually bring something different with fewer points par with a unit we got.
Yes bodies we don't have yes psychers we don't have etc some of the options you can get but limited. I v decided to pick bullgryns to screen or assault. Why would you take them ?? You got stygia priests worse at start but cheaper and able if played properly to go 3+ invu and use guard gems for an extreme 2+5+fnp?
Elysians I already see plasma point increase for all guard if they go above 68 I will still go for a dragoon choise cause it's buffable and within canticles etc.
It's good it's ok it has options and we talk about the. But 1) you need to make a pure admech either way
2) there are good option but no need for extreme measures . If you try to go for a mass plasma drop or tank buffing you already going for a Astra m army.
Good luck
Tip : guard gem 1cp +1 save for enemy round so it's a defensive gem and we already got one +1 save and +1 attack for infantry . Its ok but not extreme.
Tip 2 : I see a great list mech guard support for knights. Extremely good. If you can fit all inside .
Tip3 : plasma on Astra codex says bs4+ 7poins 3+ 13 so I believe the points are at least that much already abjusted for elysians.
Hey, would you guys be averse to a set of fan-made rules made to port over a large portion of 30k mechanicus over to 40k?
I would be making these rules to be both BALANCED and FUN. With continuous community feedback, I think we could make something that everyone would be OK playing against/with.
Who knows, it might even be accepted by smaller tournaments if the ruleset gets popular?
I bring this up because FoC is no-where near soon to come out and I feel like mechanicus has REALLY gotten stale for me.
For credentials, I wrote up a 7ed IG codex that I feel was well balanced to the meta at the time:
gendoikari87 wrote:Phobos and no grey knights allies? For for shame sir for shame.
Also anyone have any details on what forces get sent out when the phobos tech guard accompany the grey knights? I can't imagine they'd use skitarii I'm assuming servitors and bots
The Grey Knights got given Deimos, Mars still has Phobos I'm pretty sure!
em_en_oh_pee wrote:I think you mean 6 Robots, not 2x3, right?
In my last game I ran 6 in one unit and had a hard time getting them proper lines of sight. My gaming group might use more terrain than the average 40k player. The robots extremely overkilled everything they were shooting at, and then were left with not a ton of great targets, and the Iron Warriors fell back away from 36" range. Worth noting it was the deployment zones where you fight long-ways across the table, and it was a Maelstrom objective mission. So, next game I will probably have one unit move forward for 1 turn while the other unit stays stationary and immediately opens fire.
Wulfey wrote:-ph34r
Where are you taking that list out? I am taking a similar list to Game Empire in Pasadena California.
This is what I was thinking. I still don't have a good earthshaker proxy. Maybe next week in time for SoCal Open. I have more screening units and special weapons and dragoons. You have those cannons and an extra special weapons team.
ElyCom 40 1 [warlord with bolter, 5+ get back CP trait, 5+ get CP on opponent strategem relic] ComSquad 28 28 2x Ely Sniper 15 6 1x Ely Mortar 15 15 1x Plas Wep Team 30 21
Hah that's awesome! I'm up here in Palo Alto California. Got any pics of your army?
I gathered up my models and it hit me just how much painting I have to get through in the next two days. I will have a group photo on Friday. Some of my models are legit, but I have a whole stack of heavily converted 'Elysians' to get through. I am using bolt action soviets as the body base ($30 for 40 guys) with 20 now useless hot shot lasguns as sniper rifles with all kinds of scion gubbins and bits and beret heads (I had 4 scion team sprues waiting and then the codex hits). Even then I needed more bodies so I took some cultists and replaced their heads and gave them skitarii backpacks. My special weapon team has 'plasma rifles' made out of cultist auto rifle, skitarii arc rifle, and scion plasma gun tips. My command plasma jump teams have 'grav wings' made out of old kataphron armor parts that make breachers (another bit that will never ever be used). The command teams have my resin/magnetized secutarii peltast guns/arms as 'Cawl's expermental compact plasma rifles' (stupid forgeworld not giving my expensive models rules). And then I had to scrounge some 60mm bases ... so I cut up my old cult mechanicus codex and glued/puttied some old pieces of terrain to cover up that I was using bootleg parts. Then I used my old armorium container bits that just happened to have distinctive colors to divide up the squads based on what color of barrel/ammo box they have on their 60mm base. And then I saw I needed more mortars, so I cut up my old autocannon from a predator sprue, found a mortar in a mantic minis box I got from LVO, and then turned my old and unused 'shoes' from the dunecrawler kits into stands for 'mortars' cut out of the predator autocannon. This whole project has been one giant exercise of digging through the sprue bucket and turning those things into meta models. Once I finish giving the 'Elysians' a base coat and a wash I will post up a shot.
Maybe its just me, but I don't feel the need to try and find some really scamy unintended rule abortion to try and shoehorn in goofy army compositions just to have a 2% better chance of winning. I'd rather play warhammer 40k than play list cheese 40k.
Same thing with trying to come up with a way to have 20 detachment each from a different forge world, just make them all the same forge world. It's goofy.
If you don't want to play ad mech them don't play ad mech. Collect a guard army instead.
Converting old admech bits onto other models is my favorite part of the hobby. That my models are a hodge podge of kits that I put together to fit some theme in my head is what keeps me going on this stuff.
Danny slag wrote: Maybe its just me, but I don't feel the need to try and find some really scamy unintended rule abortion to try and shoehorn in goofy army compositions just to have a 2% better chance of winning. I'd rather play warhammer 40k than play list cheese 40k.
Same thing with trying to come up with a way to have 20 detachment each from a different forge world, just make them all the same forge world. It's goofy.
If you don't want to play ad mech them don't play ad mech. Collect a guard army instead.
I'm 100% with this guy here. But ultimately, it's in the original rule designs that people feel the need to do this stuff. As it was said, the codex was basically a very disappointing copy pasta.
Still, I'd rather play my mediocre admech army than a cheesefactory russ spam list.
Danny slag wrote: Maybe its just me, but I don't feel the need to try and find some really scamy unintended rule abortion to try and shoehorn in goofy army compositions just to have a 2% better chance of winning. I'd rather play warhammer 40k than play list cheese 40k.
Same thing with trying to come up with a way to have 20 detachment each from a different forge world, just make them all the same forge world. It's goofy.
If you don't want to play ad mech them don't play ad mech. Collect a guard army instead.
not to mention that people get so wrapped up in comparing x unit to Y unit they forget it's a strategy game and how it's used makes a lot of difference. a good unit poorly used is worth less than a bad unit used well.
Just had a game today, very close loss - though to be honest made a few mistakes which hurt me in the end.
One thing I struggled to answer to were Crisis Suits with drones - the problem I had was that weapons small arms fire was being allocated to and bouncing off the suits, while my Neutron Lasers were being allocated to, and overkilling the Drones.
How do you folks crack this nut, aside from throwing a disproportinate amount of firepower at it (as a Stygies Forge World, so no Crawl/Kastellans), or try and get them in close combat?
(As
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Just had a game today, very close loss - though to be honest made a few mistakes which hurt me in the end.
One thing I struggled to answer to were Crisis Suits with drones - the problem I had was that weapons small arms fire was being allocated to and bouncing off the suits, while my Neutron Lasers were being allocated to, and overkilling the Drones.
How do you folks crack this nut, aside from throwing a disproportinate amount of firepower at it (as a Stygies Forge World, so no Crawl/Kastellans), or try and get them in close combat?
(As
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Just had a game today, very close loss - though to be honest made a few mistakes which hurt me in the end.
One thing I struggled to answer to were Crisis Suits with drones - the problem I had was that weapons small arms fire was being allocated to and bouncing off the suits, while my Neutron Lasers were being allocated to, and overkilling the Drones.
How do you folks crack this nut, aside from throwing a disproportinate amount of firepower at it (as a Stygies Forge World, so no Crawl/Kastellans), or try and get them in close combat?
Commander spam? Volume fire. My lists packs two Icarus Crawlers. I castle them with the Kastelans and inch my way into the center of the board. Tau has a very hard time winning because they pretty much get only one shooting round before I wipe their Fusions off the map.
Wrapping Tau in CC is like trying to catch water with a lasso. They will just fall back and shoot because they all Fly. Your Dragoons are best used to screen their Deep Strike and to run out and grab objectives; Tau are glassy and won't stand in the open for you to shoot them unless they have to, so force them to do it.
That being said, keep your stuff castled; that is, use your models to physically wall off your units so that they cannot stand close enough to CC them. Because if they wrap your Kastelans in CC, you're screwed. And don't divide your army too much. Tau are super mobile and can quickly bring their entire army to concentrate on any isolated unit.
Danny slag wrote: Maybe its just me, but I don't feel the need to try and find some really scamy unintended rule abortion to try and shoehorn in goofy army compositions just to have a 2% better chance of winning. I'd rather play warhammer 40k than play list cheese 40k.
Same thing with trying to come up with a way to have 20 detachment each from a different forge world, just make them all the same forge world. It's goofy.
If you don't want to play ad mech them don't play ad mech. Collect a guard army instead.
No you're not alone, we're a bunch playing pure AdMech, the difference is a good chunk of the people here play either in tournaments or in very competitive environments, and so take chances on their sides by taking units from other armies because they have the possibility to do so.
Worry not you can talk with us about how you'd like to play your army is fun, fluffy and themed army lists, there will be people like me to discuss it with you (I have the same opinions), just mention you don't want to play in a competitive setting when you're asking advice on something, because people will give you was is considered the best advice and sadly, it involves Astra Militarum most of the time.
I saw your question about data-tethers earlier, my opinion on it is that they're way overcosted, for the same price (11 pts I believe) you can have a Vanguard with points to spare, or almost an Arc rifle Ranger, and I think it's better to have one extra body that can shoot and fight than just having a chance (not even a guarantee) to save some to Morale. If you play squads of 7-8 you'll be fine with Morale anyway.
Danny slag wrote: Maybe its just me, but I don't feel the need to try and find some really scamy unintended rule abortion to try and shoehorn in goofy army compositions just to have a 2% better chance of winning. I'd rather play warhammer 40k than play list cheese 40k.
Same thing with trying to come up with a way to have 20 detachment each from a different forge world, just make them all the same forge world. It's goofy.
If you don't want to play ad mech them don't play ad mech. Collect a guard army instead.
I would love to play only pure Adeptus Mechanicus but we are a bit restricted by the business side of things and GW's bad rules. Fluff-wise, adeptus mechanicus are extremely diverse and should be able to use basically any sort of military unit that a forge world would make for the rest of the imperium at large. Rules wise we will never get those things in the mechanicus book unless they get their own special models, and as most of them would overlap hugely with Astra Militarum there is little incentive to and we basically just won't get those in our codex ever. For me to field a force that I think is fluffy, I need access to miscellaneous artillery, cannon fodder servitor infantry, guard vehicles with mechanicus upgrades, etc etc etc.
The fact that the Dogmas don't really incentivize you to take a pure army is a bummer if you want a no-custom-models, or an advantage if you want a bunch of custom counts-as Mechanicus units that GW will never give us. If all our units or dogmas were good I would try to go for pure Skitarii/cult units, but that's not how the cookie crumbled so I have embraced the custom conversions path.
Back when mechanicus were not an official faction, I spent years and years admiring the extensive conversions people did to have their Imperial Guard army be an "Adeptus Mechanicus" army. I love all the creativity and vision that went into these and I want to be able to bring a wider range of units into my army in the same manner.
I mean, if you really want to get into the fluff, keep in mind that the Skitarii are the heart of the Cult Mechanicus's private army, and vary wildly from place to place (we get the "Mars standard" patterns common on major Forge Worlds). Furthermore, Forge Worlds are defended by the Imperial Guard like any other planet.
Suzuteo wrote: I mean, if you really want to get into the fluff, keep in mind that the Skitarii are the heart of the Cult Mechanicus's private army, and vary wildly from place to place (we get the "Mars standard" patterns common on major Forge Worlds). Furthermore, Forge Worlds are defended by the Imperial Guard like any other planet.
yup and in some cases there can be very little separating the skitarii from guardsmen... or on some worlds skitarii can resemble ogryns with weapon arms. further more servitors or entirely bionic men.
by far the most interesting bits of the lore deal not with skitarii at all but the warrior tech priests. the ones that study war and machinations of war the same way a biologis would study living organisms. At least to me that is.
Danny slag wrote: Maybe its just me, but I don't feel the need to try and find some really scamy unintended rule abortion to try and shoehorn in goofy army compositions just to have a 2% better chance of winning. I'd rather play warhammer 40k than play list cheese 40k.
Same thing with trying to come up with a way to have 20 detachment each from a different forge world, just make them all the same forge world. It's goofy.
If you don't want to play ad mech them don't play ad mech. Collect a guard army instead.
You do you, booboo. No need to come in and chastise us folks who play competitively. Let people have fun how they want to. We all play AdMech to some degree, so we come here to discuss it. We have hashed out "pure" AdMech over a couple of threads and a slew of posts. So with new Codices come new additions and new strategy discussions.
And as a Metalica player, mixing FWs is all I can do to not hate playing my army. I wish Mars/Stygies weren't the no-brainer choices and that Metalica was worth a damn, but alas, in my highly competitive area, it's a no-go for my boys in white to be what they are.
Danny slag wrote: Maybe its just me, but I don't feel the need to try and find some really scamy unintended rule abortion to try and shoehorn in goofy army compositions just to have a 2% better chance of winning. I'd rather play warhammer 40k than play list cheese 40k.
Same thing with trying to come up with a way to have 20 detachment each from a different forge world, just make them all the same forge world. It's goofy.
If you don't want to play ad mech them don't play ad mech. Collect a guard army instead.
You do you, booboo. No need to come in and chastise us folks who play competitively. Let people have fun how they want to. We all play AdMech to some degree, so we come here to discuss it. We have hashed out "pure" AdMech over a couple of threads and a slew of posts. So with new Codices come new additions and new strategy discussions.
And as a Metalica player, mixing FWs is all I can do to not hate playing my army. I wish Mars/Stygies weren't the no-brainer choices and that Metalica was worth a damn, but alas, in my highly competitive area, it's a no-go for my boys in white to be what they are.
i mean if you're so concerned about competitiveness and your army is that well painted, why not sell and get guard. they're damn good, just got a dex so they aren't changing for a while. you could even paint them metallica colors if you just like mechanicus. use rangers as guardsmen. Not like skitarii forces actually DON"T have transports, they have access to all the stuff guard has. get a few basilisks and call them an ordo reductor.
virus646 wrote: Or he plays both and keeps enjoying the game? To each his own, we don't need another thread closed.
What's wrong with the current course of discussion? The topic is tangentially related to the main thread and everyone is (right now) being polite to one another.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, since absolutely no one responded to my post on page 13, I get the feeling no one is interested in my idea?
I like the spirit of your port idea, but Fires of Cyraxus is coming out Soon (tm). By the time you have gone through all the drudge work, not to mention get it popular enough to become wide spread, Fires of Cyraxus will come out the next week or something.
ph34r wrote: I like the spirit of your port idea, but Fires of Cyraxus is coming out Soon (tm). By the time you have gone through all the drudge work, not to mention get it popular enough to become wide spread, Fires of Cyraxus will come out the next week or something.
virus646 wrote: Or he plays both and keeps enjoying the game? To each his own, we don't need another thread closed.
What's wrong with the current course of discussion? The topic is tangentially related to the main thread and everyone is (right now) being polite to one another.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, since absolutely no one responded to my post on page 13, I get the feeling no one is interested in my idea?
I have a Thanatar on my shelf. I love that model, but it is 100%. I have no pets or kids and it gives me comfort in the solitude of my apartment. Let's assume the Thanatar starts from similar rules to its 7th edition rules. The translation from 7th to 8th generally decreased points for middle range vehicles and increased their wound count by a factor of 3.5.
virus646 wrote: Or he plays both and keeps enjoying the game? To each his own, we don't need another thread closed.
What's wrong with the current course of discussion? The topic is tangentially related to the main thread and everyone is (right now) being polite to one another.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, since absolutely no one responded to my post on page 13, I get the feeling no one is interested in my idea?
I have a Thanatar on my shelf. I love that model, but it is 100%. I have no pets or kids and it gives me comfort in the solitude of my apartment. Let's assume the Thanatar starts from similar rules to its 7th edition rules. The translation from 7th to 8th generally decreased points for middle range vehicles and increased their wound count by a factor of 3.5.
Danny slag wrote: Maybe its just me, but I don't feel the need to try and find some really scamy unintended rule abortion to try and shoehorn in goofy army compositions just to have a 2% better chance of winning. I'd rather play warhammer 40k than play list cheese 40k.
Same thing with trying to come up with a way to have 20 detachment each from a different forge world, just make them all the same forge world. It's goofy.
If you don't want to play ad mech them don't play ad mech. Collect a guard army instead.
No you're not alone, we're a bunch playing pure AdMech, the difference is a good chunk of the people here play either in tournaments or in very competitive environments, and so take chances on their sides by taking units from other armies because they have the possibility to do so.
Worry not you can talk with us about how you'd like to play your army is fun, fluffy and themed army lists, there will be people like me to discuss it with you (I have the same opinions), just mention you don't want to play in a competitive setting when you're asking advice on something, because people will give you was is considered the best advice and sadly, it involves Astra Militarum most of the time.
I saw your question about data-tethers earlier, my opinion on it is that they're way overcosted, for the same price (11 pts I believe) you can have a Vanguard with points to spare, or almost an Arc rifle Ranger, and I think it's better to have one extra body that can shoot and fight than just having a chance (not even a guarantee) to save some to Morale. If you play squads of 7-8 you'll be fine with Morale anyway.
Thanks I was about to start work on the last couple vanguards and wasn't sure if that was worth it, I'll leave the backpacks at home. I'm using Graia forge world since I'm going with many vanguard/ranger squads and I've always been more partial to the skitarii models side of ad mech. It also fits my home brew forgeworld fanboying best. So that'll help with moral too.
Danny slag wrote: Maybe its just me, but I don't feel the need to try and find some really scamy unintended rule abortion to try and shoehorn in goofy army compositions just to have a 2% better chance of winning. I'd rather play warhammer 40k than play list cheese 40k.
Same thing with trying to come up with a way to have 20 detachment each from a different forge world, just make them all the same forge world. It's goofy.
If you don't want to play ad mech them don't play ad mech. Collect a guard army instead.
You do you, booboo. No need to come in and chastise us folks who play competitively. Let people have fun how they want to. We all play AdMech to some degree, so we come here to discuss it. We have hashed out "pure" AdMech over a couple of threads and a slew of posts. So with new Codices come new additions and new strategy discussions.
And as a Metalica player, mixing FWs is all I can do to not hate playing my army. I wish Mars/Stygies weren't the no-brainer choices and that Metalica was worth a damn, but alas, in my highly competitive area, it's a no-go for my boys in white to be what they are.
No go? Or just not the absolute most broken possible? Because those are two very different things that get used interchangeably a lot around here.
As I'm a programmer, I actually enjoy creating mathammer spreadsheets. So when it comes to choosing units/FWs, I look at the data and go "why would I use <blank> if <blank> is just better. Different philosophies on the game.
rvd1ofakind wrote: As I'm a programmer, I actually enjoy creating mathammer spreadsheets. So when it comes to choosing units/FWs, I look at the data and go "why would I use <blank> if <blank> is just better. Different philosophies on the game.
i do this as well and have a points cost calculator that will compare units. But it's important to keep in mind no comparison no matter how well done is going to be 100% accurate because there are advantages and disadvantages to everything. and a lot of the game is making the best use of your advantages while minimizing the effect of your disadvantages.
Competitive play tournament details friendly game its still a war game . Even if we test units even if we just field them to see our paint job it's common logic to provide some resistance.
None wants to play shooting practice. As said we are not in forum tactics to say the obvious. We try to explain more obscured plans and most commonly our experience .
Unit ply different in each players hands and that's what we talking here. Putting aside point cost and how we view units utility we welcome all feedback. And we have and talked for all issues and guard and ad mech some Marin's even and sisters etc. Said it before if you find this talk not constructive or you bored don't need to read this by force. Make your own fluff threat that does not have tactics in title and go chit chat.
We can play what we like even if in here we talk about competitive . We can't though play competitive and get results if we chit chat only. So enough with who went what in here .
Forum title read or create your own. Cut the crying.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Just had a game today, very close loss - though to be honest made a few mistakes which hurt me in the end.
One thing I struggled to answer to were Crisis Suits with drones - the problem I had was that weapons small arms fire was being allocated to and bouncing off the suits, while my Neutron Lasers were being allocated to, and overkilling the Drones.
How do you folks crack this nut, aside from throwing a disproportinate amount of firepower at it (as a Stygies Forge World, so no Crawl/Kastellans), or try and get them in close combat?
(As
You can target the drones specifically (they're a separate unit) and the Tau player can't offload wounds from drones onto his suits, only the other way around. So use your small arms to wipe out the drones, then train the big guns on the suits.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Just had a game today, very close loss - though to be honest made a few mistakes which hurt me in the end.
One thing I struggled to answer to were Crisis Suits with drones - the problem I had was that weapons small arms fire was being allocated to and bouncing off the suits, while my Neutron Lasers were being allocated to, and overkilling the Drones.
How do you folks crack this nut, aside from throwing a disproportinate amount of firepower at it (as a Stygies Forge World, so no Crawl/Kastellans), or try and get them in close combat?
(As
You can target the drones specifically (they're a separate unit) and the Tau player can't offload wounds from drones onto his suits, only the other way around. So use your small arms to wipe out the drones, then train the big guns on the suits.
This^
I found really helpful to create spreadsheet/checklist with questions to follow so you won't overlook/act out of habit from 7th, with interactions such like these.
So i got a little 950 points tag team tournament coming up. 1 faction, battalion detachment, no nameed characters. I want to bring Stygies with 6 Ironstriders but I am not so sure what else. I was thinking about a massive 6 Dragoons drop but since I dont know whos is playing with me 2 Balistarii might be a go to as well and have 4 dragoons to drop. I thought about some Kastelans or a vanguard plasma drop (since I dont own e-priests). anyone got some meat ideas?
What do people think of using the Lucius stratagem to deepstrike a knight? Or anything from an allied detachment?
"Use this Stratagem during deployment. You can set up a Lucius unit from your army in a teleportarium chamber instead of placing it on the battlefield..."
Edit: Never mind the Lucius key word was dark on a red background in the digital codex made it look like it said any unit... Copy pasted and suddenly the Lucius keyword appeared...
Danny slag wrote: Maybe its just me, but I don't feel the need to try and find some really scamy unintended rule abortion to try and shoehorn in goofy army compositions just to have a 2% better chance of winning. I'd rather play warhammer 40k than play list cheese 40k.
Same thing with trying to come up with a way to have 20 detachment each from a different forge world, just make them all the same forge world. It's goofy.
If you don't want to play ad mech them don't play ad mech. Collect a guard army instead.
You do you, booboo. No need to come in and chastise us folks who play competitively. Let people have fun how they want to. We all play AdMech to some degree, so we come here to discuss it. We have hashed out "pure" AdMech over a couple of threads and a slew of posts. So with new Codices come new additions and new strategy discussions.
And as a Metalica player, mixing FWs is all I can do to not hate playing my army. I wish Mars/Stygies weren't the no-brainer choices and that Metalica was worth a damn, but alas, in my highly competitive area, it's a no-go for my boys in white to be what they are.
i mean if you're so concerned about competitiveness and your army is that well painted, why not sell and get guard. they're damn good, just got a dex so they aren't changing for a while. you could even paint them metallica colors if you just like mechanicus. use rangers as guardsmen. Not like skitarii forces actually DON"T have transports, they have access to all the stuff guard has. get a few basilisks and call them an ordo reductor.
I actually had about 5000pt of Guard I sold off over the last few years. Lost all my passion for the army. Just the thought of painting it exhausted me and I weigh my hobby and competitiveness equally - Guard don't interest me hobby-wise at all, so not an option. I want both. AdMech was a passion project from way back and, when I started collecting, they were a beastly army (WarConvo). Sadly, the shaft we got really robbed us of competitive edge outside of what I mentioned (Mars/Stygies). But my point stands, he doesn't need to chastise those of us who play hardcore competitive.
I am considering adding custom conversions to my Metalica army as an Ordo Reductor detachment, but that is back-burner to my Death Guard... whenever I can find time to paint again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Danny slag wrote: ices come new additions and new strategy discussions.
And as a Metalica player, mixing FWs is all I can do to not hate playing my army. I wish Mars/Stygies weren't the no-brainer choices and that Metalica was worth a damn, but alas, in my highly competitive area, it's a no-go for my boys in white to be what they are.
No go? Or just not the absolute most broken possible? Because those are two very different things that get used interchangeably a lot around here.
Metalica is absolute garbage. Even for casual play I don't want to run those rules. I will always default to Mars for my rules, because I have my Metalicawl(TM) painted up and will be darned if I am not using that expensive model!
ph34r wrote: Danny I believe the backup is are standard issue and Skitarii all have them? Not sure what bit the data tether is supposed to be.
Yeah every ranger/vanguard has some form backpack. There is a seperate one for the enhanced data tether, it comes with a different arm holding a little monitor-type device.
if it's hobbywise you should have the infantry covered, just use rangers/vanguard as guard. Leman Russ's can be made from ordo dunecrawlers just like your ordo reductors.... sprinkle tech thrills for conscripts
Automatically Appended Next Post: Did some point cost comparisons and point for point in terms of their ability to remove points of orks or marines from the board strike squads, and both kits of infiltrators, are within 2% efficiency of one another. Just thought that an interesting anecdote and one that show at least with these two units gw knew what they were doing
if it's hobbywise you should have the infantry covered, just use rangers/vanguard as guard. Leman Russ's can be made from ordo dunecrawlers just like your ordo reductors.... sprinkle tech thrills for conscripts
I am going Tech-Thralls for infantry (Conscripts) and doing similar walker Earthshakers to what ph34r did (Crawler legs with cannons on top). Also going to work on count-as Elysians using Skitarii arms and legs, Sicarian torsos and heads, Grav-chutes, and Guard Plasma guns.
I won't be going for full count-as Guard though. But I do love the idea of adding Ordo Reductor to the mix.
Cool... and expensive. I only have one unused box of Sicarians sitting around at the moment. So... yea. Also, may use Skiarii bare heads for variety. Definitely making the Commander more unique, but haven't settled on that yet. Probably just give him a robe.
My main issue right now is a major lack of time for the hobby. :(
For infiltrators i use skitarii bodies and marines power swords from fw with the stub carbines glued to the bolt pistol arms with the bolt pistol clipped off... also use the same models for my strike squads sounds nuts but they look cool. Of cot I use the hooded ranger heads so they all look like warrior tech priests
For my Elysians I use Vostroyans, chop off and drill out the necks, and give them Pig Iron Productions helmets. The Special Weapon Squad guys get helmets, the Command Squad guys all get peaked caps, to set set them apart clearly. The lasguns have been shortened and the winged skull removed as these guys are fluff-wise Mechanicus aligned, not part of the Astra Militarum. In the broad sense fluff-wise my Elysians would be Skitarii of my forge world.
Elysian commander is a Vostroyan sergeant with a bolter replacing the regular laspistol hand, and a peaked cap.
My Cadian Commander with Grand Strategist and Kurov's Aquila is a Master of Ordnance with a Ranger head, tech priest's backpack, radar dish, and a servo arm holding his bolter.
Painting is very much work in progress, but I've been going a weird route with my order of painting and nothing much is really done yet, just the base colors blocked in so it looks okay on the table:
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Just had a game today, very close loss - though to be honest made a few mistakes which hurt me in the end.
One thing I struggled to answer to were Crisis Suits with drones - the problem I had was that weapons small arms fire was being allocated to and bouncing off the suits, while my Neutron Lasers were being allocated to, and overkilling the Drones.
How do you folks crack this nut, aside from throwing a disproportinate amount of firepower at it (as a Stygies Forge World, so no Crawl/Kastellans), or try and get them in close combat?
(As
You can target the drones specifically (they're a separate unit) and the Tau player can't offload wounds from drones onto his suits, only the other way around. So use your small arms to wipe out the drones, then train the big guns on the suits.
Yes, I forgot to mention this. But in the other thread, I pointed out that you have to be very intentional about how to remove the drones as well.
if it's hobbywise you should have the infantry covered, just use rangers/vanguard as guard. Leman Russ's can be made from ordo dunecrawlers just like your ordo reductors.... sprinkle tech thrills for conscripts
Oh, this is a good idea. I was also looking into Minotaurs, which are also a part of the Ordo Reductor. (I do want to wait to see what happens to the FW index though. Weapon profiles and all.)
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Just had a game today, very close loss - though to be honest made a few mistakes which hurt me in the end.
One thing I struggled to answer to were Crisis Suits with drones - the problem I had was that weapons small arms fire was being allocated to and bouncing off the suits, while my Neutron Lasers were being allocated to, and overkilling the Drones.
How do you folks crack this nut, aside from throwing a disproportinate amount of firepower at it (as a Stygies Forge World, so no Crawl/Kastellans), or try and get them in close combat?
(As
You can target the drones specifically (they're a separate unit) and the Tau player can't offload wounds from drones onto his suits, only the other way around. So use your small arms to wipe out the drones, then train the big guns on the suits.
Yes, I forgot to mention this. But in the other thread, I pointed out that you have to be very intentional about how to remove the drones as well.
if it's hobbywise you should have the infantry covered, just use rangers/vanguard as guard. Leman Russ's can be made from ordo dunecrawlers just like your ordo reductors.... sprinkle tech thrills for conscripts
Oh, this is a good idea. I was also looking into Minotaurs, which are also a part of the Ordo Reductor. (I do want to wait to see what happens to the FW index though. Weapon profiles and all.)
WAAIT wait wait wait - you can specifically target the drones that are brought with a Crisis suit as a separate unit?? So is you shoot at the Crisis suits, how can the Tau player assign the wounds to essentially a different unit? Is there a special rule that covers this?
Yes they are separate units. and either the crisis suits or the drones one have a rule that lets you do the whole look out sir thing if they are within 3" you can do the same with honor guard.
gendoikari87 wrote: Yes they are separate units. and either the crisis suits or the drones one have a rule that lets you do the whole look out sir thing if they are within 3" you can do the same with honor guard.
Haha. Dude. Literally the only thing I know about Tau (who I've played a grand total of twice) is "don't shoot the big robots until you've shot the little drones!"
Okay, I finally got my models based coated and washed. The bases are not quite ready yet but they are close. If they do well in tomorrow's tournament then they will get their faces done. The images are large so I am just going to post a link and 1 image. This is my full competitive forge world / on the edge of getting FAQd list.
Wulfey wrote: Okay, I finally got my models based coated and washed. The bases are not quite ready yet but they are close. If they do well in tomorrow's tournament then they will get their faces done. The images are large so I am just going to post a link and 1 image. This is my full competitive forge world / on the edge of getting FAQd list.
Nice! Quick question: how did you go about magnetising your ironstriders? I have a bunch I’m building at the moment and I’ve all but given up on doing it in a ‘nice’ way. I guess at least magnetising the lance arm is easy enough but the arms in general are really badly designed imo.
That's a sweet looking army Wulfey! Really like the effort you've put into the bases as well.
I've got some questions about the Graia Dogma if anyone can help me understand..
1, If someone fires a shot that does 6 damage on a dragoon with only 2 wounds left, I roll one d6 and on a roll of 6 it survives with one wound left, correct?
2, If someone smites a group of vanguard for 6 damage, do I roll 6 d6 or 1 d6?
3, If someone smites a group of infiltrators for 6 damage, do I roll 6 d6 one at a time (since they can soak up more than one potentially) or 1 d6?
Basically does it "stop" all wounds on a roll of 6, including mortal ones?
PiñaColada wrote: That's a sweet looking army Wulfey! Really like the effort you've put into the bases as well.
I've got some questions about the Graia Dogma if anyone can help me understand..
1, If someone fires a shot that does 6 damage on a dragoon with only 2 wounds left, I roll one d6 and on a roll of 6 it survives with one wound left, correct?
2, If someone smites a group of vanguard for 6 damage, do I roll 6 d6 or 1 d6?
3, If someone smites a group of infiltrators for 6 damage, do I roll 6 d6 one at a time (since they can soak up more than one potentially) or 1 d6?
Basically does it "stop" all wounds on a roll of 6, including mortal ones?
It stops "the wound that slew it". So for one wound models, you are rolling 1D6 after all other saves. For multi-wound models, they are taking their profile in wounds and then you roll for the last one.
So in your examples I would interpret:
1. With two wounds left, you take one, leaving 5 left to roll for. Its the same for Disgustingly Resilient in that you have to roll for each wound separately. Just not as cool since you have to wait until your final wound for the rule to kick in.
2. 6D6
3. Same scenario as #1 with a slight modification. Apply your first wound, leaving 5. Then roll a dice, one at a time, until you fail. Lets assume you don't make the first roll. So that's now two wounds applied. Now, apply the third wound and start rolling for wound four until you fail.
If you can ensure plasma destroyers will survive more than 2 rounds sure. The gun is nice . Maybe if it was 2d6 and pick higher it would be more stable? Every single time I got them in the field enemies kill them fast and I m minus 210 from simple weapons.
In apoca game they where 9 inside a bunker superbbbbbb
interesting match with the new CSM. plasma destroyers seem to do well. but this was a MEQ match.
That was also a narrative battle and not a competitive one. I'll leave it at that because scrutinizing their play with a competitive eye is counter to the type of game they were trying to have.
I wouldn't look into this kind of batrep as an example of a units effectiveness in a competitive setting. A lot of units, outside of a competitive setting, can have more value.
However, both those armies looked fantastic and the game did look like fun for them both.
It stops "the wound that slew it". So for one wound models, you are rolling 1D6 after all other saves. For multi-wound models, they are taking their profile in wounds and then you roll for the last one.
So in your examples I would interpret:
1. With two wounds left, you take one, leaving 5 left to roll for. Its the same for Disgustingly Resilient in that you have to roll for each wound separately. Just not as cool since you have to wait until your final wound for the rule to kick in.
2. 6D6
3. Same scenario as #1 with a slight modification. Apply your first wound, leaving 5. Then roll a dice, one at a time, until you fail. Lets assume you don't make the first roll. So that's now two wounds applied. Now, apply the third wound and start rolling for wound four until you fail.
See, I'm with you on example 2 & 3 but I'm not sure I interpret it the same way on example 1."The wound that slew it" can still be multi-damage right? So a lascannon shot with 6 damage is still just one wound, no? So wouldn't that still just be one d6 to roll that spares the model with one wound left on a roll of 6, or am I completely misunderstanding how it works?
PiñaColada wrote: See, I'm with you on example 2 & 3 but I'm not sure I interpret it the same way on example 1."The wound that slew it" can still be multi-damage right? So a lascannon shot with 6 damage is still just one wound, no? So wouldn't that still just be one d6 to roll that spares the model with one wound left on a roll of 6, or am I completely misunderstanding how it works?
Its from the Designers Commentary FAQ that says when rolling against attacks that cause multiple wounds, that you have to roll to stop each lost wound separately and not once to ignore them all.
It uses Disgustingly Resilient and Tenacious Survivor as the examples. Which functionally work the same as the Graia special rule except that Graia only kicks in on "the wound that slew it" (i.e. its last wound on its profile) rather then every wound in the case of the others.
Its from the Designers Commentary FAQ that says when rolling against attacks that cause multiple wounds, that you have to roll to stop each lost wound separately and not once to ignore them all.
It uses Disgustingly Resilient and Tenacious Survivor as the examples. Which functionally work the same as the Graia special rule except that Graia only kicks in on "the wound that slew it" (i.e. its last wound on its profile) rather then every wound in the case of the others.
Huh, maybe I'm just plain wrong here but I really thought that a lascannon shot dealing multiple damage is still just one wound. Whereas two or more shots penetrating armour would be multiple wounds.
Basically, I undertand that is how it would work with disgustingly resislient but thought the Dogma worked slightly different but I guess it doesn't..
That makes it significantly worse haha
PiñaColada wrote: Huh, maybe I'm just plain wrong here but I really thought that a lascannon shot dealing multiple damage is still just one wound. Whereas two or more shots penetrating armour would be multiple wounds.
Basically, I undertand that is how it would work with disgustingly resislient but thought the Dogma worked slightly different but I guess it doesn't..
That makes it significantly worse haha
Yeah in previous threads, before they got shutdown, this was talked about at length. Graia is fine for single wound models, but gives the shaft to multi-wound models compared to DR or TS.
Wulfey wrote: Okay, I finally got my models based coated and washed. The bases are not quite ready yet but they are close. If they do well in tomorrow's tournament then they will get their faces done. The images are large so I am just going to post a link and 1 image. This is my full competitive forge world / on the edge of getting FAQd list.
Nice! Quick question: how did you go about magnetising your ironstriders? I have a bunch I’m building at the moment and I’ve all but given up on doing it in a ‘nice’ way. I guess at least magnetising the lance arm is easy enough but the arms in general are really badly designed imo.
There isn't really an easy way to do the arms. It requires good drill control and experience knowing when you are about to blast through the shoulder plate. Make sure you have at least the following gear:
Drill just enough so that the 3mm x 1.5mm magnet fits into the weapon shoulder. It will fit just right if you drill exactly 1.5 mm in. once you get 1.3mm in, reverse the direction of the drill and turn it to high speed and use it on backwards and slowly grind out that last .2mm. Then wiggle the drill around in the hole while reversed to widen out the hole to match 3mm. Then put in the smallest nibblet of green stuff and a good amount of super glue. Then check the polarity of the magnet with the model. Then push in the magnet after you have confirmed polarity. If you do it right, the magnet won't be sticking out of the model. One of my dragoons is actually pretty wrecked since it was one of my earlier magnetizations. My elysian command squads have secutarii peltast guns that are all magnetized. Those were hard.
Yeah I mean I hate magnetizing but honestly with the Ballistoon chassis you almost need to. The price to point ratio is pretty darn off the charts with them.
Huh, maybe I'm just plain wrong here but I really thought that a lascannon shot dealing multiple damage is still just one wound. Whereas two or more shots penetrating armour would be multiple wounds.
I've always understood it as;
Roll To Hit - "Did you hit?"
Roll To Wound - "Do you eventually get a chance to cause wounds?"
Roll For Damage - "How many wounds did you cause?"
What are peoples current thoughts on how big a game to include Knights what with how more vulnerable they are to massed fire now and how much points they take up. I'm considering getting one at some point, but the biggest games I will probably play would be about 2000 points. Also while you loose out of fluff and the stratagems what about one of the Baneblade variants as I assume a super-heavy auxiliary detachment is sill an Astra Millitarum detachment so would unlock the Take Cover! one.
I'll have a battle report later but can confirm 4 kastelans and two neutronagers at 1000 points is nasty when your opponent takes a land raider. #thisiswhyiamcappedat4kastelens
I use wire for my vehicles . I make small loops and I can remove the base and move in table. Dragoons I got fixed bases that force me to move them around in a bag fixed with foam and stationary places. I don't have 6 but 4 can be moved. Knights also separate case same foam cut each big part to fit. Don't know if you want to carry 2-3 cases but they are movable.
As for knights in lists . They are a major part of our history. But I prefer Robots onagers atm. When I play above 2k I definitely include knight. And I have been making a nice 3-4 knights ad mech Astra militarum soup as a planet defence. With bastions and kataphrons etc like the video but with knights as well.
Smaller list I don't really like solo knight. Cause I gotta invest in healing tpd and I consider minimum 2 knights to do the job and then need a dedicated dakka knight to utilise healing max ND we are at three knights again.
Somehow the game for me seems to be played more on focused lists than mixes atm . Robots ok 6 with Cawl almost 1000 knights two almost if not more 1000 points. So the lists work around a plan and that's about it .you need the rest for utility. Screener troops anti tank or antihorde etc etc more or less.
Wulfey wrote: Okay, I finally got my models based coated and washed. The bases are not quite ready yet but they are close. If they do well in tomorrow's tournament then they will get their faces done. The images are large so I am just going to post a link and 1 image. This is my full competitive forge world / on the edge of getting FAQd list.
Nice! Quick question: how did you go about magnetising your ironstriders? I have a bunch I’m building at the moment and I’ve all but given up on doing it in a ‘nice’ way. I guess at least magnetising the lance arm is easy enough but the arms in general are really badly designed imo.
There isn't really an easy way to do the arms. It requires good drill control and experience knowing when you are about to blast through the shoulder plate. Make sure you have at least the following gear:
Drill just enough so that the 3mm x 1.5mm magnet fits into the weapon shoulder. It will fit just right if you drill exactly 1.5 mm in. once you get 1.3mm in, reverse the direction of the drill and turn it to high speed and use it on backwards and slowly grind out that last .2mm. Then wiggle the drill around in the hole while reversed to widen out the hole to match 3mm. Then put in the smallest nibblet of green stuff and a good amount of super glue. Then check the polarity of the magnet with the model. Then push in the magnet after you have confirmed polarity. If you do it right, the magnet won't be sticking out of the model. One of my dragoons is actually pretty wrecked since it was one of my earlier magnetizations. My elysian command squads have secutarii peltast guns that are all magnetized. Those were hard.
I appreciate the effort you’ve put in to this reply, i perhaps should have been more specific lol. As someone that initially started out magnetising all the arms on my vanguard so I can switch them between rangers and vanguard I’m well accustomed to using magnets in the shoulders lol. Incidentally I use 2x1mm magnets.
What I really struggle with on these ironstriders is where the arms attach to the rest of the model. The weird handlebar arrangement they have going on and also the less than optimal surface for magnetising the balistarii guns.
- - -
I’m considering balistarii mainly because they’re reliable heavy weapons fire that doesn’t use a heavy support slot and you can also advance them and still fire at normal BS in a pinch with strategms; Or at 5+ without if you feel like reducing yourself to guardsmen/ork/tau lvl of shooting lol. Point per firepower onagers and robots are easily our best bet, but now onagers aren’t in a squad of 3 the slots soon disappear without adding more hq tax. Add a few balistarii and you have more heavy firepower for a single fast attack slot.
I also plan to use balistarii as my no-penalty anti-air. most non-eldar/non-tau only have a couple of hard to hit models, if those are also stygies/raven Guard/alpha legion/future -1 to hit traits I have the option of spending 1cp to potentially take them out rather than swapping a Neutronager for an otherwise sub-optimal icarus. That’s my experience anyway, makes for a much more exciting battle when you get your 3 neutron shots and wound with all 3, minimum 9 damage from a single model and rolling 6 * 3+ isn’t exactly unheard of.
Even if you took an entire army of Neutronager each still has the option of 6 * stubbed shots to weather the chaff units trying to lock you down. Hell I used an onager as a screening unit for my robots in my last battle, works just as well as 2 dragoons lol.
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On the graia dogma: I read it slightly differently, in that it’s essentially reanimation protocols on single wound models, multi-dmg weapons dmg is wasted once the model was slain. The rule reads:
Roll a D6 each time a model with this dogma is slain or flees, on a 6 that sew to yield; either the wind that slew it is ignored or the model does not flee.
The model has to be already dead for this to kick in, it’s not wound based. so we do have a bit of a conundrum in that if the damage being dealt was multiple mortal wounds at what point do we make the rolls for refusal to yield? If all the models in a unit have been slain then surplus mortal wounds would be wasted; dmg is applied to a unit simultaneously, not in a sequence. So 6 mortal wounds against a 5 man squad would slay all 5 models at the same time, the 6th mortal wound is wasted. Then we roll for refusal to yield. After all the damage has been dealt. It’s slightly ambiguous I guessing depends, it would definitely be a per weapon roll as each weapon applies it’s damage in its own bubble. I read it as:
1, If someone fires a shot that does 6 damage on a dragoon with only 2 wounds left, you fail 2 rolls the model is slain and all remaining dmg is wasted. roll one d6 and on a roll of 6 it survives.
2, If someone smites a group of 5 vanguard for 6 damage, all 5 are slain. You roll 5 d6, 1 for each model.
3, If someone smites a group of 5 infiltrators for 6 damage, assuming they started this attack with 2 wounds each, 3 are slain. you would roll 3d6, 1 for each 2-wound model slain.
Playing devils advocate, you wouldn’t have to make 3 saves for a unit with 2 models if you failed your morale test by 3. In my mind this rule is actually the opposite of what people have been saying. It’s more powerful against multi dmg attacks and mortal wounds, but just as good against attacks on single wound models as a regular fnp.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I said I wasn’t gonna do this, but I have a bit of a reputation for magnetising models now, so I pretty much have to now lol
Throw out all of your small model count easily killable units. Time to cut those sniper team bases in half and turn them into conscripts (specifically the 30 man blob, since that is only 1 'unit'). Anything that can feed "I killed more units than you did" to your opponent is just throwing the game.
Also, buy more dragoons. 6 dragoons should be standard pretty much. InControl runs 6 for a reason. 6 almost feels like not quite enough. And yes, InControl was correct to run them as 1x6. No reason to give out two 'killed a unit' points. Also, run Stygies for the dragoons. Infilitrate or die is the new rule.
Also, Cawl. Cawl gives up 4 "put 2 wounds on a designated character" points. So Cawl is this giant liability in ITC. Magnus can get the same rule, but requires 3 wounds to get 1 secondary point since he is a 'monster'.
Wulfey wrote: Also, Cawl. Cawl gives up 4 "put 2 wounds on a designated character" points. So Cawl is this giant liability in ITC. Magnus can get the same rule, but requires 3 wounds to get 1 secondary point since he is a 'monster'.
Well, potentially more then that since he heals himself.
Same goes with Dominus and every other character that can heal or resurrect themselves. I doubt people stop taking St. Celeste or Bobby G because of it.
Wulfey wrote: Also, Cawl. Cawl gives up 4 "put 2 wounds on a designated character" points. So Cawl is this giant liability in ITC. Magnus can get the same rule, but requires 3 wounds to get 1 secondary point since he is a 'monster'.
What the hell kinda batcrap rules are they making up now? Can’t we just play the game normally? It’s barely been out a few months and they’re already messing with it?
Octovol wrote: What the hell kinda batcrap rules are they making up now? Can’t we just play the game normally? It’s barely been out a few months and they’re already messing with it?
It's one of the secondary mission objectives that players can choose per game.
Spoiler:
Secondary Missions: Any Time Scoring.
Each player may score up to 4pts for each of the following Secondary Missions, for a total of 12 between the three they’ve chosen. These points can be scored at any time unless the timing is specified in the Secondary Mission description.
Headhunter: 1pt for destroying an enemy character.
Kingslayer: Choose an enemy model that is a Character.
Earn 1 point for every 2 wounds of damage you deal to it, cumulatively.
In the instance where a Character may regenerate wounds or resurrect during the course of the game, total wounds dealt to it over the course of the game are counted towards this mission.
If the model selected has the Character and Vehicle or Monster keywords, you earn 1 point for every 3 wounds dealt to it.
The Reaper: Earn a point for every enemy unit you destroy that began the game with 10+ models. If a unit begins the game with 20+ models, you earn 2 points for destroying it.
Recon: Have a unit at least partially in each table quarter at the end of your player turn. A unit may only count as being in one table quarter at a time for the purposes of this rule. 1pt per turn.
Big Game Hunter: 1 point for every model with 10 or more wounds you destroy.
Titan Slayers: For every 8 wounds dealt to units with the Titanic keyword in total throughout the course of the game, earn 1 point.
Example: You deal 4 wounds to one Titanic model turn 1, and 12 to a different Titanic unit turn 2, you’ve dealt 16 wounds total to Titanic models, and earn 2pts towards this objective.
Behind Enemy Lines: 1 point for every unit at least partially within 12” of your opponent’s deployment board edge at the end of the game.
Death by a Thousand Cuts: Each time you destroy 3 or more enemy units in a single Battle Round, you earn 1 pt.
Though when reading thorugh, you can only get a max of 4 points from that regardless of how much damage you do. Given Cawl is more likely to survive then a regular Dominus by sheer virtue of having more wounds, the overall effect is the same. Between headhunter and the self healing, you may likely end up with a Dominus giving up 4 points anyway. Compared to Cawl maxing at 5 with both of those objectives. I'd not stop taking Cawl and the benefits he gives over a potential 1 point mission difference.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wulfey wrote: Some harsh lessons from the new ITC rules:
Throw out all of your small model count easily killable units. Time to cut those sniper team bases in half and turn them into conscripts (specifically the 30 man blob, since that is only 1 'unit'). Anything that can feed "I killed more units than you did" to your opponent is just throwing the game.
Also, buy more dragoons. 6 dragoons should be standard pretty much. InControl runs 6 for a reason. 6 almost feels like not quite enough. And yes, InControl was correct to run them as 1x6. No reason to give out two 'killed a unit' points. Also, run Stygies for the dragoons. Infilitrate or die is the new rule.
Yes and no. Larger units will push larger volume of fire weapons so that you can still kill them in a turn. See Punisher/Turox Gatling Cannons for example. While those will be popular regardless, they have less of an impact when all those shots are wasted at a small unit. The Punisher especially, since shooting twice has to be at the same target. I don't think these rules shaft MSU, they just make taking a better balance more desirable. And you can certainly still run it, but you can wind up in a bad match up for sure. Then you will have to lean on your innate superior ability at board control and secondary objectives to win.
I also wouldn't base buying more Dragoons based on one skilled players list. Those players make the lists they do based on their play style and understanding of how they plan to use them within that list. Dragoons are fantastic, no doubt. But go back to 5th edition. "Leaf blower" got popular because Nick Rose rolled people with it for quite some time. Then everyone and their brother started copying it and trying to do the same with it. 95% of those players, at major events, stayed in the low and mid tables because they didn't know how to actually run it correctly. Where as Nick continued to be at top tables. Think about it.
Why can’t they just use the existing objectives? Why invent more unofficial ones when the existing ones are fine? I guess it reduces the random nature of getting good or bad objectives. But if that’s the intention, just use the existing objectives in the same way they’re using their made up ones.
Octovol wrote: Why can’t they just use the existing objectives? Why invent more unofficial ones when the existing ones are fine? I guess it reduces the random nature of getting good or bad objectives. But if that’s the intention, just use the existing objectives in the same way they’re using their made up ones.
I obviously can't speak for them. But I would imagine that by saying "here are the objectives you will see in our events" is their way of building in stability. If you know what the primary objectives will always be and you also get to, after seeing your opponents army, choose your secondary objectives, you should be capable of building a list that in theory should minimize the effect of a bad match up.
So even when you run into an opponent that is bad for primary, you should have enough understanding of what they cannot do, or inversely, what they cant effectively stop you from doing to them when it comes to secondaries. In theory, this should mean that whatever to zero scores should be minimal and you can walk away from the games feeling that you were able to do something and get some points rather then a goose egg score.
It also speeds gameplay because you won't have to stop every player turn to roll up new tactical objectives for the players.
In the end, its how one group, albiet the current dominate group, promotes to play. People got bent over "INAT40k" that Adepticon played by for years. That spawned "NOVA40k" as something different which in turn spawned "ITC 40k". Everyone has their own view of how they like to play 40k. Best thing about it, is that no one is forced to play by that view. Even if its the popular view of the time, no one stops anyone with the drive and ability to do so, from promoting something different. Heck, Adpeticon only started because they felt they could run something better then GWGT's back in the day. Then NOVA and now ITC. Each of those three grew to the size they are, essentially, because they aren't the other guy and appealed to those who wanted change or something different in general.
In short, play how you like. If you don't like the format, promote one of your own. Even if only on a local level. There are lots of ways to have fun!
I actually think the new ITC missions are a big improvement on over GW Maelstrom and a massive improvement over the old ITC missions. They just force a different style of thinking when it comes to what units to bring.
EDIT: a comment on plasma drop teams. I was really excited to use these things. In theory they are incredible damage for their points. And they are. Against things that you don't have a hard time killing as is. Against anything with a -1 to be hit they are very dodgy. And boy, even the mildest of shooting firepower erases plasmacide teams for free on the next turn. This has me thinking that my old list that had a better winning record had the right idea with eversor assassins and celestine. The eversor assasin can't threaten T7/3+ save vehicles the same way that a plasmacide team can, but the eversor is much better at rushing a troop squad on a far away objective and then lasting two turns holding that objective. A competent opponent will screen the good T7/3+ save models with crap I don't want to kill with the plasmacide team, thus forcing the plasmacide team into non-rapid fire range. Whereas the eversor loves crashing into a screening blob and has an invul save that might keep him on the board for a second turn.
Also, playing without celestine is super lame. Damn did she get me some wins. People just can't help but shoot at her. That is just great! Shoot at celestine! Go nuts! She usually has 2 lives and I even managed to get a 3rd life one time using the act of faith 'healing tears' to revive 1 model in celestine's unit that only had 1 gemini left.
Same. The objectives in the rulebook are flawed unless you just want to kill stuff which is fine as well. Especially if you play by the rule of going first by having less units.
Chapter approved will hopefully brings a more tactical and interesting rule-set for tournaments and more official.
Played a game Friday, ended up running out of time in an uncertain position: I had shot the Iron Warriors mostly off of the board, but he was significantly ahead on victory points with something like 5 or 7 to my 2. Honestly not sure who would have won. The end of the game saw my Elysian Command Squads try and fail to kill his daemon prince, who promptly ate them before being killed in turn. Both Maulerfiend and Forgefiend closed on the Robot Cawl Wall though they were killed as well. Victor: uncertain.
I had a go at recording this game, though my phone ran out of battery part way through, the Proof Of Concept was a success. Got the camera to a good angle and had it record a time lapse. As I said it cuts off before the end, but the game didn't really conclude anyway, so here is my first go at making time lapses of the games I play. You can speed up or skip around because I put it at 1 frame per second:
Yeah, ITC is much better than the garbage GW missions. It is good that it punished high unit count. There are plenty of CP spam lists with a crapton of units. It is good that those lists get punished. Also, this is a beta. So it will change
So I am trying to bandwagon your list ph34r. What do you think about these as 'forgeworld' earthshakers?
This is kataphrons as treads, mantic bunker as base, knight shoulder and knight battle cannon as cannon (almost same stats right?), spare wings from fire raptor, spare console from fire raptor, and some peltasts just for demonstration.
ph34r wrote: Danny I believe the backup is are standard issue and Skitarii all have them? Not sure what bit the data tether is supposed to be.
Yeah every ranger/vanguard has some form backpack. There is a seperate one for the enhanced data tether, it comes with a different arm holding a little monitor-type device.
Sorry I just us "backpack" as shorthand for the data tether, since the model has a bigger backpack to identify it.
The mantic minis bunker set came with like 20 panels. So I tore my bunker apart. The knight battle cannons happen to be magnetized so I can just pull them off. And the fire raptor kit had a whole plastic stormraven. When you buy the fire raptor, you end up using maybe 1/3 of the plastic stormraven kit. The kataprhon treads are also magentized, so there are magnets under the platforms.
EDIT: this is what I am thinking on how to use these cobbled together cannons. I said I needed dragoons, but the problem is I only have 2. I don't have the CP or the detachments to spare to infiltrate them and I don't feel like buying more dragoons. Celestine has won me games before and she is already painted. She does almost the same thing that a few dragoons do and the eversors are good at clearing off infantry on objectives on the other side of the board. If I don't buy more dragoons ... the way I see it I should just use my third Onager cause those things are always winners. Does anyone know any good primers on how to use a Culexus? One of those eversors could easily be a Culexus but I don't know how to use them.
IMPERIUM Vangard Celestine 150 Eversor 70 Eversor 70 Eversor 70
CADIAN Vanguard CompComand 30 [optionally holds Relic of Cadia for 1CP versus Chaos players, this gives me 1 turn of Roboute's aura on the earthshakers] CADIAN Conscripts 87 CADIAN Earthshaker x3 240 Astropath 15 [-1 to be hit power -- used to buff conscripts] Astropath 15 [maelstrom power -- this is awesome for sniping characters] Commisar 30 1 WL/Relic 5+/5+ CP recycling
So a patrol gives you +3 command points. Anyone considering running a battalion of stygies vanguard or rangers for objective grabbing? Super cheap. But elsyians they ain't
So Stygies battalions. If i had to run full admech I would run one. The problem is that to get them onto the objectives you need and mid field you need to spend CP to get those vanguard into position. In an ITC game, the bottom floor of ruins is LOS blocking, so infiltrating 2 squads of vanguard into LOS block buildings can be really good. The big struggle with vanguard is that if you start them on your deployment area, then they don't get into range against an Eldar gunline until turn 3. Which is incredibly stupid.
Also his list has a great synergy between the Stormraven's native -1 and Tigerius handing the Stormraven another -1. The best thing to shoot in his list starts at -1. The other things to shoot are razorbacks. His list has great resistance to alpha strikes and has the most amount of lascannons / assault cannons that you can cram into an RG list.
Wulfey wrote: Also his list has a great synergy between the Stormraven's native -1 and Tigerius handing the Stormraven another -1. The best thing to shoot in his list starts at -1. The other things to shoot are razorbacks. His list has great resistance to alpha strikes and has the most amount of lascannons / assault cannons that you can cram into an RG list.
And it is painfully boring and extremely point-and-click. Then again, it is also tragically pretty fluffy. Gotta love them Space Marines.
Oh look tacticals and razor spam won. Surprising no one. Neat. Guard only took 6th ...and 11th and 12 and 14th and 15th.....
Snooze-fest autopilot list wins semi-competitive event. lol
yup basically.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaranis wrote: I thought tactical squads were widely considered as the most useless unit of 40k ?
doesnt mean they are. They suck compared to everything that's all. But that's mathhammer. Are they good at x? No tac squads suck at x but they can do it. That's why you never underestimate tac squads. Are tac squads as good at shooting as tau and guard? No but they'll still shoot you in the face. Are they as good as berserkers in cc ? No but they'll still punch your face. Are they as good at ant tank as an onager or even a dev squad? No but they can still get through. Tac squads need support and they aren't winning any MVP awards but they'll get you there
Basically tac squads exist to be a threat, not the biggest threat, and sit on objectives. They do that job adequately. Not good. Not super bad. Adequately. If they had report cards they'd get c's and d's for every thing. That's their purpose. They are the core unit the game is designed around
I'd probably have gone at least one of those a dev squad but I like my heavy gunline
It's the Razorbacks that are the threat. They act as a force multiplier for the Tacticals. Ironically, our army does pretty well against Razorback spam. A 4-walker Goondozer unit or three Neutron Crawlers can each delete a Razorback every turn. And paired Dragoons can block a transport entirely. (We just struggle against things like Daemon, Guardsmen, and Orks.)
Suzuteo wrote: It's the Razorbacks that are the threat. They act as a force multiplier for the Tacticals. Ironically, our army does pretty well against Razorback spam. A 4-walker Goondozer unit or three Neutron Crawlers can each delete a Razorback every turn. And paired Dragoons can block a transport entirely. (We just struggle against things like Daemon, Guardsmen, and Orks.)
it's also worth nothing you don't need a tac squad per razorback. you can take a razorback for the flyer, you can take a razorback for the HQ, ect.
gendoikari87 wrote: .
Basically tac squads exist to be a threat, not the biggest threat, and sit on objectives. They do that job adequately. Not good. Not super bad. Adequately. If they had report cards they'd get c's and d's for every thing. That's their purpose. They are the core unit the game is designed around
I’ve been working on a similar principal for vanguard. Everyone and their dog ignores a bare 5 man squad. Put 2 plasma calivers in there however and suddenly they’re more of a threat. If only arc rifles were a bit better, though I guess against light vehicles they’re not bad, then we could do it cheaper.
Though an autocannon balistarii is only 2 points more than a plasma vanguard squad...but we have to take troops, we don’t have to take fast attack. Bleh. I’d rather have the iron striders. I’d field a whole army if I could lol.
Octovol wrote: I’ve been working on a similar principal for vanguard. Everyone and their dog ignores a bare 5 man squad. Put 2 plasma calivers in there however and suddenly they’re more of a threat. If only arc rifles were a bit better, though I guess against light vehicles they’re not bad, then we could do it cheaper.
Well, yes they become more of a threat and/or an easy target. Adding 2 plasma calivers ups the cost of the unit from 5 vanguard to 8 vanguard, but still has the survivability of 5.
EDIT: Also, why not take rangers to carry your Calivers? They are cheaper.
Octovol wrote: I’ve been working on a similar principal for vanguard. Everyone and their dog ignores a bare 5 man squad. Put 2 plasma calivers in there however and suddenly they’re more of a threat. If only arc rifles were a bit better, though I guess against light vehicles they’re not bad, then we could do it cheaper.
Well, yes they become more of a threat and/or an easy target. Adding 2 plasma calivers ups the cost of the unit from 5 vanguard to 8 vanguard, but still has the survivability of 5.
EDIT: Also, why not take rangers to carry your Calivers? They are cheaper.
Them being an easy target is kinda the point though. With or without the calivers they are easy to take down, it’s incentivising your opponent to target them before your other stuff and using them to control the flow of battle. Virtually every battle I’ve played so far if I have anything left at the end, it’s onagers and TPD, sometimes robots. The stuff that died was supposed to die. 8 vanguard with no calivers is just as easy to ignore as 5, but the calivers give you options both in dmg output and strategy.
My first game with the new codex my guard friend conceded his turn 3. I had 2 Neutronager, 2 TPD and 2 robots left, he didn’t even manage to wound any of them; stygies -1 to hit is very strong against guard. In that battle I actually infiltrated my caliver vanguard to within range of his heavy weapons squads, if they didn’t have calivers he wouldn’t even have bother with them and just put more firepower elsewhere.
I would use rangers but if your gun range is 30 they tend to be targeted before you can get the calivers in range; plus you can advance and still fire the radium carbines and calivers. And the carbines are just plain better than galvanic rifles. the number of times I’ve rolled 2 dmg against a vehicle or character is worth having 9 radium shots to go with the 4 caliver shots. Both guns rely on rolling 6s to be mor effective, the carbines is just more worth it.
gendoikari87 wrote: .
Basically tac squads exist to be a threat, not the biggest threat, and sit on objectives. They do that job adequately. Not good. Not super bad. Adequately. If they had report cards they'd get c's and d's for every thing. That's their purpose. They are the core unit the game is designed around
I’ve been working on a similar principal for vanguard. Everyone and their dog ignores a bare 5 man squad. Put 2 plasma calivers in there however and suddenly they’re more of a threat. If only arc rifles were a bit better, though I guess against light vehicles they’re not bad, then we could do it cheaper.
Though an autocannon balistarii is only 2 points more than a plasma vanguard squad...but we have to take troops, we don’t have to take fast attack. Bleh. I’d rather have the iron striders. I’d field a whole army if I could lol.
Alas, without transports (or some bubble shield or bodyguard ability), the same principle does not apply to our Vanguard. =(
gendoikari87 wrote: So a patrol gives you +3 command points. Anyone considering running a battalion of stygies vanguard or rangers for objective grabbing? Super cheap. But elsyians they ain't
In the list im building currently, Stygies is the main Battalion. 3x naked Rangers, a Dragoon unit and the HQ tax is it. For running pure Ad Mech, it seemed the auto include paired with Cawls Mars Spearhead.
I do like the idea of 5 lone rangers. If you don't mind going second. Pretty much every time the enemy fires at a unit like that it's not going to be a good feeling. You'll pretty much always use too much firepower or leave one or two behind.
It's not quite the same as tac squads because tac squads can do anti tank at range ....poorly but they can do it. Buts it's the same tactical idea. Cheap unit your enemy should be able to ignore but not really. Still gives that "I just wasted firepower" feeling to shoot at them.
Thrown in a stygies battalion however they might be amazing for a 40 point objective anchor
Yeah, on the one hand they waste their firepower and don't focus down things like Robots as much as they should. On the other hand they get First Blood easily.
Have you guys gone up against the Bash Brothers list yet?
Magnus + Mortarian + Changeling + Horrors + maybe a knight renegade.
I am incorporating the Earthshakers + the optional Relic of Cadia Relic to give me a turn of rerolling to hit and wound against those monsters. But man those two are just terrible.
Also, have any of you got experience with a Culexus? Could it help against bash brothers?
Wulfey wrote: Have you guys gone up against the Bash Brothers list yet?
Magnus + Mortarian + Changeling + Horrors + maybe a knight renegade.
I am incorporating the Earthshakers + the optional Relic of Cadia Relic to give me a turn of rerolling to hit and wound against those monsters. But man those two are just terrible.
Also, have any of you got experience with a Culexus? Could it help against bash brothers?
Wrathbots can kill Magnus in a turn (even with Changeling). Morty takes a turn plus added firepower. Twin Neutrons should take out the Knight.
You can then spend the rest of the time just chewing through the Horrors.
That is the idea, at least. Really, running both Primarchs seems like a big point sink.
Wulfey wrote: Have you guys gone up against the Bash Brothers list yet?
Magnus + Mortarian + Changeling + Horrors + maybe a knight renegade.
I am incorporating the Earthshakers + the optional Relic of Cadia Relic to give me a turn of rerolling to hit and wound against those monsters. But man those two are just terrible.
Also, have any of you got experience with a Culexus? Could it help against bash brothers?
Wrathbots can kill Magnus in a turn (even with Changeling). Morty takes a turn plus added firepower. Twin Neutrons should take out the Knight.
You can then spend the rest of the time just chewing through the Horrors.
That is the idea, at least. Really, running both Primarchs seems like a big point sink.
it would be if horrors wernt so cheap and spammable.
Actually, I think we're good against Bash Brothers. All of our core units, including Kastelans with Wrath, Neutron, Icarus, and Dragoons all do great against them. Just castle up and focus them down one at a time. Kill 25% of their army each turn until all that's left are Horrors. (Again, our real problem is dealing with aggressive melee hordes.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: New salt deposit discovered. (They're spoiling the Eldar codex. Lots of dice manipulation so far...)
Wulfey wrote: Have you guys gone up against the Bash Brothers list yet?
Magnus + Mortarian + Changeling + Horrors + maybe a knight renegade.
I am incorporating the Earthshakers + the optional Relic of Cadia Relic to give me a turn of rerolling to hit and wound against those monsters. But man those two are just terrible.
Also, have any of you got experience with a Culexus? Could it help against bash brothers?
The Culexus is fantastic. He won't ever kill anything, but he'll keep most things you throw him at tied up for a very long time.
As for stopping daemon primarchs... it can certainly help to setup some pressure, but don't count on holding them in line for more than one turn. While the Culexus is only hit on 6s, with T4 and only 5 wounds, it doesn't take much of a stretch of probability to fry the Culexus in one go. The upside here, however, is that his ability to mess with psychic powers helps to force your opponent into a position where they need to actually deal with him. It requires some specific setup, but if you can funnel the big beasties onto the Culexus for a turn, he can help to buy up enough time to bring down one of those badboys.
Suzuteo wrote: New salt deposit discovered. (They're spoiling the Eldar codex. Lots of dice manipulation so far...)
Honestly I think Eldar players are going to be nearly as mad as us. Their doctrines look pretty garbo so far. Maybe we can team up with them and beat up the Astra Militarum Codex in the alley after school.
EDIT: Fellow Mars forge world players, it occurs to me, our Doctrine is basically meaningless.
Now, far be it from whining, this could be an advantage: we have no reason not to also take Assassins, Grey Knights, Sororitias, Sanctioned Psykers, etc etc etc in our Mars Detachments. Are there any other units that might be great in this situation?
Suzuteo wrote: New salt deposit discovered. (They're spoiling the Eldar codex. Lots of dice manipulation so far...)
Honestly I think Eldar players are going to be nearly as mad as us. Their doctrines look pretty garbo so far. Maybe we can team up with them and beat up the Astra Militarum Codex in the alley after school.
EDIT: Fellow Mars forge world players, it occurs to me, our Doctrine is basically meaningless.
Now, far be it from whining, this could be an advantage: we have no reason not to also take Assassins, Grey Knights, Sororitias, Sanctioned Psykers, etc etc etc in our Mars Detachments. Are there any other units that might be great in this situation?
I am eyeing the Bullgryn bomb. Bots and Bullgryns. Bullgryns put out about 70% of the mathhammer damage of a strategemed Dragoon squad point for point, but they pack mean invulnerable saves and a 6 man offensive lineman squad gets impossibly tough if you can land the two Psykana powers on them (-1 to hit from shooting and +1 to saves).
5x dragoons = 340 points 6x Bullgryns + 1x Priest + 2x astropaths = 317 points [note, really needs celestine to work right for the 6++ that gets buffed down to a 3++ or even 2++]
The dragoons are much more versitile, but the Bullgryns have crazy synergies and are one of the handful of units that can absorb a Bash Brother charge and still stand there.
EDIT: also yes, canticles don't mean a damned thing. Everyone brings -3 shooting and directs that -3 shooting at the robots and the onagers. Both of those have 5++ base invuls. So that you have cover means nothing due to the -3 making the invul better.
EDIT2: something sad to think about. 1 FistRobot is 121 points. 3 bullgryns are 126 points. I dare you to compare those two units after you factor in the available buffs in both codexes.
Since we basically can intercept with all of our infantry troops, I would like to know if we need or if it would be wise for us to field a dedicated intercept unit and which of them would be best suited for this task. E-Priests? Plasma Vanguard? Kataphrons?
This is an adeptus mechanicus tactics threat. We can't start comparing all units with guard. I know there are extreme differences but.. you can't have both super dakka and superb screener. As you said take bullgryns if you want a 2+ melee goodness. Cause mechnicum does not have that option. Imperium soup got nice options go for it. Assassin's pshyckers hq troops so many options. Gw will not give ad mech much more. Why cause you got direct shooting in mass with mortals and if you screen it with bullgryns Celestine etc it's becoming really bad ass. Most tours got rules for single faction lists to avoid it ND it will have limitation.
On Thursday at 4:00 pm, we’ll be checking in with Tony Cottrell, head of the Forge World studio. While we can’t reveal what he’ll be showing off, we can guarantee it’ll be awesome – would you expect anything else from the team that brought you the Horus Heresy?
I hope it is FoC, but I know it will more likely be AT... which is awesome, too. We really would benefit from FW stuff just so we can be a complete faction. Right now, I feel like we are about 1/3 of a real faction, given how few things we can reasonably field.
Anyone know what the actual models for the ordo reductor are supposed to be? They take whirlwind missiles and can replace them with basilisk cannons ... so chimera base? Rhino?
AdMech is an amazingly complete army compared to Chaos Daemons. All they have is melee units that run at your opponent.
Really annoying to see all those "chaos daemon armies" topping the tournament when they have:
changeling
brimstones
.... yeah that's about it. And a bunch of soup stuff.
Almost every other unit is pretty much complete trash (Nurgle is OK-ish)
This is how sad the CD faction is:
Fateweaver - trash
Changeling - AMAZING
Blue scribes - trash
Lord of Change - trash
Herald of Tzeentch - trash
Herald of Tzeentch on dics - meh
Herald of Tzeentch on chariot - meh
Pink Horrors - trash
Blue Horrors - trash
Brimstone Horrors - AMAZING
Exalted Flamer - Good
Screamers - trash
Burning Chariot - meh
Nurgle in general - OK
Beast of Nurgle - trash
Masque - trash
Keeper of Secrets - trash
Herald of slaanesh - meh
Herald on steed - meh
Herald on chariot - meh
Herald on exalted chariot - trash
Daemonettes - trash
Fiends - meh
Seekers - OK
Seeker chariot - meh
Exalter chariot - meh
Be'lakor - meh
Daemon Prince - good
Chaos Furies - trash
Soul Grinder - trash
22 trash
12 meh(you wouldn't take to a tournament)
8 OK (you'll never get near top 3)
3 good (on the level of, say, a balistarii, maybe onager)
2 amazing (on the level of a dakkastelans)
That's only 28% units that are at least OK
Only 11% that are really competitive
Only 4% that are hyper competitive.
Trust me, AdMech is fine.
Spoilers: my other army is CD :p
Yoda79 wrote: This is an adeptus mechanicus tactics threat. We can't start comparing all units with guard. I know there are extreme differences but.. you can't have both super dakka and superb screener. As you said take bullgryns if you want a 2+ melee goodness. Cause mechnicum does not have that option. Imperium soup got nice options go for it. Assassin's pshyckers hq troops so many options. Gw will not give ad mech much more. Why cause you got direct shooting in mass with mortals and if you screen it with bullgryns Celestine etc it's becoming really bad ass. Most tours got rules for single faction lists to avoid it ND it will have limitation.
We as Adeptus Mechanicus players have 1/3 the units available to us as Astra Militarum, 1/4 the units as Space Marines, half those of Orks and Eldar, and still fewer than Dark Eldar, Tau, Tyranids, Neurons, Death Guard, Grey Knights, and even Deathwatch. We are fairly restricted on what we can take.
Normally you might be able to get away with the concept of taking all your faction's units and relying on your Dogma as a bonus for eschewing these hundreds of other units, but our Dogmas are generally bad and don't encourage us to field large amounts of our own faction's stuff.
I really would like to put more Adeptus Mechanicus stuff in my army, but what am I to do?
Cawl is great, duh
Tech-Priest Dominus you would only ever want to take if you aren't Mars, and then there is no reason to take more than one. Also, all the relics suck so it's not like you can customize and make a strong close combat character like a Space Marine Captain or something.
Tech-Priest Enginseer is a cool cheap HQ unit.
Robots... duh, great. Well, only with the one weapon option.
Servitors: lol terrible
Datasmith: used to be a tax, now is almost pointless
Troops, our troops are pretty cheap-ish now, but they are fragile and get dunked by morale. Is there a reason to spam our Vanguard or Rangers? I would like to but they just seem like a liability.
Rust stalkers and Kataphrons..... are these at all viable in any universe? They are some of the coolest models but they just seem expensive and wimpy.
Sydonian Dragoons are cool, but mostly if you are the one ForgeWorld that has a good trait that synergizes.
Infiltrators are pretty cool but expensive.
Ballistarii are like Onagers but worse.
Our one tank has two good weapon options and two terrible weapon options that you will never ever see. Other than the lack of variety Onagers are super cool.
Electro-priests.... they are sorta good if you spend a ton of command points setting up some sort of teleport combo? Seems bad to me.
You'll maybe forgive me for wanting to field the galaxy's most diverse army whose power rivals the Imperium when I am presented with this as my list of choices:
EDIT: Yikes yeah based on that list it does seem like Chaos Daemons have it worse. I feel for you.
That said, if we were more mobile we would have excellent luck with Vanguard. I myself have had decent success with using Stygies Rangers w/ Dragoons as a screen for Cawl and Crawlers, and then Deep Striking Vanguard with Lucius.
It's only decent success though. 4/7 isn't bad for that amount of experimentation, but that's only a little over half.
Iago40k wrote: Since we basically can intercept with all of our infantry troops, I would like to know if we need or if it would be wise for us to field a dedicated intercept unit and which of them would be best suited for this task. E-Priests? Plasma Vanguard? Kataphrons?
It has to be SKITARII infantry. Plasma infantry are by far the best choice. I ran some math on them back in the day and decided that a 10 man plasma vanguard squad as an anti-deepstrike screen was not quite that great. But I will make a case for it. Blinged plasma vanguard squad = 139 points ~~90+42+7
The Interceptor strategem costs 2CP, and if you are going to do this you had better spend the other CP on upping the BS of the bling squad by 1. This gives you a no penalty no bonus chance at overcharge shooting at an orc blob that just Da'Jumped. The best target would really be an Elysian squad. It is worth noting that this is not the 'shooting phase', so you don't get any Cawl/Dominus/Canticles rerolls. If the thing that deepstriked is only 1 wound models, then you wouldn't overcharge. Pretty much the interceptor strategem will really save you versus Elysians, but won't do much against T4 targets or targets with armor.
versus Boyz 7*3*0.67*0.33*0.83*1 + 3*2*0.67*0.67 = 6.55 expected wounds
versus Elysians 7*3*0.67*0.5*0.67*1 + 3*2*0.83 = 9.7 expected wounds
Suzuteo wrote: New salt deposit discovered. (They're spoiling the Eldar codex. Lots of dice manipulation so far...)
Honestly I think Eldar players are going to be nearly as mad as us. Their doctrines look pretty garbo so far. Maybe we can team up with them and beat up the Astra Militarum Codex in the alley after school.
EDIT: Fellow Mars forge world players, it occurs to me, our Doctrine is basically meaningless.
Now, far be it from whining, this could be an advantage: we have no reason not to also take Assassins, Grey Knights, Sororitias, Sanctioned Psykers, etc etc etc in our Mars Detachments. Are there any other units that might be great in this situation?
Compared to Guard, everyone sort of sucks. Maybe only SM comes close. But consider that our codex is below average and not even very fluffy.
Anyhow, I don't see why everyone is ragging on Eldar. The Iyanden ability is amazingly good; the entire army gets a Commissar, and it affects not only Wraithlords, but Wraithknights too. Furthermore, the Biel-Tan Swordwind ability is actually pretty good. Every Eldar army has a ton of shuriken weapons, and it's a reroll 1 for your ENTIRE ARMY. Imagine if we had that for Phosphor weapons (or Radium, Galvanic, and Taser weapons combined). Ulthwe is pretty standard. They really should have gotten a minor Psyker buff too...
rvd1ofakind wrote: AdMech is an amazingly complete army compared to Chaos Daemons. All they have is melee units that run at your opponent.
Really annoying to see all those "chaos daemon armies" topping the tournament when they have:
changeling
brimstones
.... yeah that's about it. And a bunch of soup stuff.
Almost every other unit is pretty much complete trash (Nurgle is OK-ish)
I agree. Chaos Daemons are just Magnus + Mortarion, a requisite supporting CSM detachment, a crapton of Horrors and Changelings, and maybe some flying Daemon Princes.
That being said, having lots of "melee units that run at your opponent" is competitive. AdMech is very vulnerable to it.
(1) is the easiest since i have all those models painted. It gives me 3 mobile units to contest ITC objectives and take on smaller MSU squads. But my mobile elements are all killable by giant bash brothers style models.
(2) has the highest firepower but the Elysian drop guys are 4 'units' that are 100% dead after a drop and give away a stack of ITC points.
(3) has the smallest area screen and is the least mobile, but the Bullgryn line can absorb a Mortarian charge and survive thanks to potential 1+/3++ saves.
~(4)~ Going up to a 5 STYGIES dragoon stack would require a good deal of real world money and dropping at least 1 onager and eats serious command points if I don't bring 220 points of enginseer/ranger taxes.
ph34r wrote: Why would you take the Ordnance guy (Master of Ordnance?) He does nothing.
He is there as a 25 point option play in case I run up against a CHAOS opponent. To use the "Relic of Lost Cadia" I need a CADIAN character in addition to my 5+/5+ Company Commnader (Kurov's aquila can only be given to an OFFICER). That relic increases the firepower of the cannons versus CHAOS by 70% for 1 turn for 1CP (it gives reroll hit/wound to all CADIAN within 12"). And the relic gives the Ordinance guy's one time use artillery strike even more damage. CHAOS is winning the ITC right now and SoCal open is crawling in CHAOS lists.
EDIT: compare him to any other CADIAN character I could put in that slot. A junior officer for 20 points? Why not pay 5 more points and get the ordinance guy's 1 shot?
Suzuteo wrote: 3 Crawlers and 3 Earthshakers? Isn't that a bit of overkill?
Not sure how Earthshakers will help you against the Chaos lists we've been seeing. Kastelans, Icarus Crawlers, and Dragoons seem to be ideal.
Stick to 4 Dragoons.
My thinking is that Cawl/Dakkabots are point for point the most powerful 36" direct fire shooters in the game. But in ITC a cagey opponent will just move his Eldar Grav tanks behind a tall wall and then sit there all game squatting points while your robots don't do anything. I lost a game specifically because of this problem. The Earthshakers ignore line of sight and force an opponent into sight of my guns. Non-LOS weapons also have a huge advantage over deepstrikers since they don't put themselves into assault range and give up free points the turn after they drop. I could see turning 1 of the Onagers into 2 more dragoons however.
My thinking is that Cawl/Dakkabots are point for point the most powerful 36" direct fire shooters in the game. But in ITC a cagey opponent will just move his Eldar Grav tanks behind a tall wall and then sit there all game squatting points while your robots don't do anything. I lost a game specifically because of this problem. The Earthshakers ignore line of sight and force an opponent into sight of my guns. Non-LOS weapons also have a huge advantage over deepstrikers since they don't put themselves into assault range and give up free points the turn after they drop. I could see turning 1 of the Onagers into 2 more dragoons however.
Dragoons do much the same thing; forcing your opponent into turtling in a corner where your guns outrange his. I suppose my point is that the Earthshakers can pretty much replace your Crawlers entirely.
One huge concern that I have about Earthshaker batteries is how they are entirely immobile. It's quite simple to overrun one unless you dedicate a large number of bodies to castle around it.
One huge concern that I have about Earthshaker batteries is how they are entirely immobile. It's quite simple to overrun one unless you dedicate a large number of bodies to castle around it.
So, list option 1 with the Conscripts seems ideal then. Nothing like a Conscripts to tarpit a unit that tries to force their way to our gunline.
gendoikari87 wrote: How long are conscripts going to be a thing? It's getting old. Luckily we have access to them
For as long as conscripts are the best option for any Imperial army to cover as wide a variety of bases as they do by the margin of effectiveness that they are capable of.
And here is a list I am hoping to test out... eventually. Got to buy a bunch of Arquebus and build more Rangers (sigh).
Plus, I got to convert up those Earthshakers... four of the suckers. Not tickled with that prospect. This is meant to be an overwhelming firepower list. Emphasis on gunline - just sit behind the screen and shoot stuff dead. Six Arquebus means I can in theory snipe out problem characters that don't hide out of LoS. With 7 CP and the Commander, I should be fine for Wrath about every turn too. My only sad spot is that I have no Dragoons.
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion 3CP
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Enginseer
[52]
Troops:
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[90]
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[90]
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[90]
Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
[1512]
Cadian Spearhead 1CP - Ordo Reductor!
HQ:
Company Commander
Kurov's Aquila, Grand Strategist
[30]
Elites:
Commissar
Bolt Pistol
[31]
Astropath
[21]
Troops:
(28) Conscripts
[84]
Heavy:
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
[486]
[1998]
7CP Total
With my hobby energy at an all-time low, I am not even buying new models right now. It is an even mix of frustration with our Codex, the hope for Fires to come out soon (and save me from conversions I don't want to make), and just generally a lack of time.
Hopefully I will get back on the table soon... but we have a lot of Guard players at my shop so I am not enthusiastic about it.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: And here is a list I am hoping to test out... eventually. Got to buy a bunch of Arquebus and build more Rangers (sigh).
Plus, I got to convert up those Earthshakers... four of the suckers. Not tickled with that prospect. This is meant to be an overwhelming firepower list. Emphasis on gunline - just sit behind the screen and shoot stuff dead. Six Arquebus means I can in theory snipe out problem characters that don't hide out of LoS. With 7 CP and the Commander, I should be fine for Wrath about every turn too. My only sad spot is that I have no Dragoons.
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion 3CP
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Enginseer
[52]
Troops:
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[90]
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[90]
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[90]
Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
[1512]
Cadian Spearhead 1CP - Ordo Reductor!
HQ:
Company Commander
Kurov's Aquila, Grand Strategist
[30]
Elites:
Commissar
Bolt Pistol
[31]
Astropath
[21]
Troops:
(28) Conscripts
[84]
Heavy:
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
[486]
[1998]
7CP Total
With my hobby energy at an all-time low, I am not even buying new models right now. It is an even mix of frustration with our Codex, the hope for Fires to come out soon (and save me from conversions I don't want to make), and just generally a lack of time.
Hopefully I will get back on the table soon... but we have a lot of Guard players at my shop so I am not enthusiastic about it.
hmmm I remember suggesting something like this back when we had that huge discussion on dragoons. Noticing a lack of dragoons and heavy use of conscripts like I suggested
em_en_oh_pee wrote: And here is a list I am hoping to test out... eventually. Got to buy a bunch of Arquebus and build more Rangers (sigh).
Plus, I got to convert up those Earthshakers... four of the suckers. Not tickled with that prospect. This is meant to be an overwhelming firepower list. Emphasis on gunline - just sit behind the screen and shoot stuff dead. Six Arquebus means I can in theory snipe out problem characters that don't hide out of LoS. With 7 CP and the Commander, I should be fine for Wrath about every turn too. My only sad spot is that I have no Dragoons.
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion 3CP
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Enginseer
[52]
Troops:
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[90]
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[90]
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[90]
Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]
[1512]
Cadian Spearhead 1CP - Ordo Reductor!
HQ:
Company Commander
Kurov's Aquila, Grand Strategist
[30]
Elites:
Commissar
Bolt Pistol
[31]
Astropath
[21]
Troops:
(28) Conscripts
[84]
Heavy:
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
Earthshaker Battery
[80]
[486]
[1998]
7CP Total
With my hobby energy at an all-time low, I am not even buying new models right now. It is an even mix of frustration with our Codex, the hope for Fires to come out soon (and save me from conversions I don't want to make), and just generally a lack of time.
Hopefully I will get back on the table soon... but we have a lot of Guard players at my shop so I am not enthusiastic about it.
hmmm I remember suggesting something like this back when we had that huge discussion on dragoons. Noticing a lack of dragoons and heavy use of conscripts like I suggested
Dragoons have changed since the Codex dropped. Now, the Goondozer is their best use because of strategems. We really could still run them as a screen just like before and with Stygies they are better than ever and with the new cheap Enginseer HQ, splashing in an Outrider for them to screen is easier too.
However, if you are already bringing in Earthshakers the the CP-recovering Company Commander (I dub thee CPCC), why not take them? We just run out of points to do everything. I could scrap all those Arquebuses and make room for a Goondozer unit and that may wind up being what I do if the guns don't do well.
Anywho got my myrmidons ordered. Now I just have the task of figuring out how to make plasma kataphrons useful...or alternative uses for myrmidons either way I'm using myrmidons
hmm about those earthshakers. If one wants to take artillery, are they really the best bet? Is high strenght low number of shots what we need as artillery? What are their primary targets other weapons from AdMech cant kill?
Iago40k wrote: hmm about those earthshakers. If one wants to take artillery, are they really the best bet? Is high strenght low number of shots what we need as artillery? What are their primary targets other weapons from AdMech cant kill?
The major benefit is their cost-to-firepower ration. They are a steal (and that makes me worry about a future Errata, for sure).
Being able to roll two dice and take the highest when firing their d6 shots makes them very good. It goes from low shots to moderate shots regularly. With 3-4 of them, you have 4d6 shots at S9 -2 d3 damage. That can help us put down anything high toughness (wounding on 2's often) and the d3 damage means we can do 3d3 or 4d3 damage somewhat regularly, which is ~6-8 damage. That isn't bad per gun. Plus, going Cadian you can re-roll hit rolls of 1 if you didn't move previously (lol immobile).
Also, we can do this without line-of-sight, which is a huge boon, as Wulfey said. Our Neutronagers and Wrathbots aren't going to be able to shoot everything, because folks will get behind LoS-blocking terrain - this gives us more firepower on cheap platforms that can hit anything on the table.
I was pretty hopped up on go pills when I thought up how to scratch build those stupid earthshakers. They aren't even for sale on the website! You have to scratch them out. And someone seems to bought out all the dunecrawler legs on ebay.
If this big phone call goes well today. I am gonna go out and buy two more dragoons and run this at Socal. I think this is as optimized as I can get it. This gives me an explosive melee option from the 4 dragoon bomb. Non-LOS shooting. A good amount of anti-T8 firepower. And the MSU killing power of Celestine (I have used her before, he power is in killing small squads and tanking lascannons on her geminae). I am vulnerable to the secondary missions of "Kill characters" and "Kingslayer" on celestine. But wounds on the geminae don't count towards Kingslayer if you name celestine. And killing my 5x guard characters requires getting through the robots and artillery, which at that point I am tabled anyways.
MARS Cawl / 5xDakkabots / 2xNeutrons / 1x4 Dragoons
IMPERIUM Celestrine + 1xGeminae / 2x Astropath / 1x Commisar
hmmm I remember suggesting something like this back when we had that huge discussion on dragoons. Noticing a lack of dragoons and heavy use of conscripts like I suggested
Totally different use cases. Conscripts are superior for defending Earthshakers because they are incapable of moving, so you can just castle around them. Conscripts are much better at this. Dragoons are something you want way out there to intercept enemies in fighting before they reach you.
gendoikari87 wrote: Did eathshakers get nerfed to ap -1? Wtf? I heard the got buffed to ap -3
Basilisks are -3 now. Earthshakers are -2 until an Errata fixes it. At that point, I expect a price hike too.
They should all be AP -1 with that range and no need for LOS. That or they should always require a crew to bring the price up to something reasonable. But yeah, if these things stay un-nerfed for another FAQ, I might even consider them.
Jackal444 wrote: FW rep had a Q&A on Warhammer TV today, going through it now for any FoC news
They confirmed it for next year. I watched live and they even answered my question about House Vyronii decals (also next year). Check the FW N&R for pics of the new Red Scorpion stuff and other tidbits I posted.
Hey there, I'm considering to start with AdMech, but I got some questions.
First of all I am not playing ultra competitive, I just wanna have a fair chance.
So for units I would like to field:
- sniper ranger
- some 5-10 man vanguard squads for the frontline duty
- Dragoons (absolutely my favourite model)
- Dunecrawler
- Infiltrators / Rusts talkers
- maybe some robots / kataphrons
1) Is this composition even viable or utter trash?
2) which forgeworld do you recommend? I was thinking about Graia or Stygies.
3) Shall I even bother with Robots without playing mars? If yes, what is a good unit size for them?
4) Is running a Brigade detachment at 2k points even realistic or shall I lean more towards 2x Batallion?
5) Whats your take on Destroyer / Breacher? Shall I take some to assist my advancing vanguard or should I just take more dudes?
lash92 wrote: Hey there, I'm considering to start with AdMech, but I got some questions.
First of all I am not playing ultra competitive, I just wanna have a fair chance.
So for units I would like to field:
- sniper ranger
- some 5-10 man vanguard squads for the frontline duty
- Dragoons (absolutely my favourite model)
- Dunecrawler
- Infiltrators / Rusts talkers
- maybe some robots / kataphrons
1) Is this composition even viable or utter trash?
Dunecralwers, Kastelans, and Dragoons are the only good units in the faction. There are other units that may be functional, but they will be sub-optimal or worse.
Kataphrons are trash, Infiltrators and Ruststalkers are trash. Rangers are usable, but sub-optimal, as are vanguard.
2) which forgeworld do you recommend? I was thinking about Graia or Stygies.
Stygies and Mars are the only competitively viable Forgeworlds, and Mars is only so if Cawl is present (even then, you should limit the presence of Mars detachments solely to units that will be benefiting from Cawl's aura).
3) Shall I even bother with Robots without playing mars? If yes, what is a good unit size for them?
Kastelans benefit hugely from Cawl, and you suffer a lot for running them without him. If you won't consider running a separate Mars detachment for them, they can still be usable under Stygies, but they certainly won't be as efficient. I don't run them myself, but units of 3 sound at least solid.
4) Is running a Brigade detachment at 2k points even realistic or shall I lean more towards 2x Batallion?
Both require you to stack up on large amounts of units that are mediocre at best. Brigade is especially nebulous because nothing even remotely good comes from Admech's elites section. I'm not a fan of the Batallion loadout either, since it requires you to load up pretty heavily on our poor HQ options, and you're still spending a sizeable amount on mediocre troops. A single Stygies Brigade detachment run with a skeleton crew for its bare requirements, mixed with a Cawlstare Spearhead be the best option for your points/command point ratio, assuming you intend on sticking with full Admech.
5) Whats your take on Destroyer / Breacher? Shall I take some to assist my advancing vanguard or should I just take more dudes?
I love my Destroyers. Some of my favorite models. To get them on the table top I took their treads and made them into treads for my earthshakers. Kataphrons just don't have a place in a competitive environment.
However. In ITC getting a 'unit' kill is paramount. So Arc Rifle breachers may have a sort of place in a fluffier list just because when it comes to troops, breachers are point for point fairly tough. Don't expect them to kill anything. But they will force your opponent to shoot them with something serious. And if you get really lucky and your opponent brings a whole lot of T6 vehicles, the arc breachers may be even get their points back in shooting.
Oh really? And you base breachers being tough on what?
Have you done a toughness spreadsheet? Because I have. And even with bolters against rangers (4 str vs 3 tgh), the Rangers are still tougher point per point.
However, needing 3 tac squads worth of bolters to put a wound on the breacher unit vs losing 3.5 rangers is arguably better for a decent number of situations. First blood, for example.
You are also way less likely to have the dice wing badly and lose the whole squad.
lash92 wrote: Hey there, I'm considering to start with AdMech, but I got some questions.
First of all I am not playing ultra competitive, I just wanna have a fair chance.
So for units I would like to field:
- sniper ranger
- some 5-10 man vanguard squads for the frontline duty
- Dragoons (absolutely my favourite model)
- Dunecrawler
- Infiltrators / Rusts talkers
- maybe some robots / kataphrons
1) Is this composition even viable or utter trash?
2) which forgeworld do you recommend? I was thinking about Graia or Stygies.
3) Shall I even bother with Robots without playing mars? If yes, what is a good unit size for them?
4) Is running a Brigade detachment at 2k points even realistic or shall I lean more towards 2x Batallion?
5) Whats your take on Destroyer / Breacher? Shall I take some to assist my advancing vanguard or should I just take more dudes?
Thanks in advance!
Hi, and welcome to AdMech ! Beware that this thread is heavily competitive-sided so you'll have most of your advice by competitive players, like Fafnir above who just answered you. If you're playing in a friendly environment, against fluff army lists or at least not WAAC lists you can be really fine playing AdMech with most of the units, because I have. I don't play the competitive players in my area because their lists look silly and I have more fun playing against regular lists, so it's your choice what you want to play against. I'll give advice based on that.
1) - Sniper Rangers are good, at least one min unit with two Arquebuses (and maybe an Omnispex) can do wonders as it's a really polyvalent weapon, just beware they can die easily though, don't really play more than two units of them.
- I love Vanguards, they look really nice and their firepower is not without its uses, just remember they're a anti-horde choice with their base gun so they'll do wonders against T3 weak units like Eldars or especially Tyranids. Don't expect them to bring down monstrous creatures and Terminators, you'll waste their shots. I recommend not going over 7-8 as far as unit size go, it's a nice balance between staying power and morale resistance. Plasma calivers work really well for them, that helps having more target choices. Arc rifles are good weapons too to deal with up to T6 units. As a golden rule try never shooting/assaulting a unit that you can't wound below 5+, use dedicated weaponry against each target.
- Good news for you Dragoons have become solid gold post-codex ! If it's really your favourite model I assume running two 2x Dragoons units shouldn't be a problem in the long term, that's the optimal loadout most of the time. Bigger units benefit better from the Conqueror Doctrina stratagem (which is why they're so awesome now) just because more models are affected by the stratagem, but they become hard to mover around beyond three in a single unit. Radium Jezzails are not worth taking honestly, even in a casual setting they will underperform. So Lances all the way !
- Dunecrawlers are excellent, but only the Neutron Laser and Icarus Array are good weapons. The Beam is just a downgrade of the Neutron Laser while the Phosphor blasters are already best used on your Robots. Lasers are excellent against anything while Icarus is more situational in my opinion, its volume of fire will cause some armies to fear them but against T7 flyers the Laser with a stratagem is just plain better to use (remember to always equip your Dunecrawlers with data-cables, it's way better than smoke launchers as it allows you to have +2 to Hit with the Protector stratagem).
- I love my Infiltrators, I run a single unit with Tasers and they rarely failed me. You just have to use them right against the right targets and they'll do wonders. Having an innate ability to deep-strike makes them really valuable as mobility is a big issue in our army, only helped by some Forge-Worlds like Stygies and Lucius, so you'll be happy to have them pop up wherever you need them to grab an objective and clean the enemy chaff on it.
- Ruststalkers are not really in a good position right now, Fulgurite Priests do their jobs better but suffer from their own ugliness model-wise sadly With their volume of attacks you really have to rely on having 6s to Wound for mortal wounds, rerolling 1s to Hit via the Canticle can be really useful to help them with that. I use mine to assault models with invulnerable saves and they did surprinsingly well on quite a few times.
- Robots are excellent ! Give them full phosphor, plant them somewhere open to have clear firing lines, keep a few units to screen and support them and they'll have a blast shooting off everything less than T7 off the board.
- Kataphrons are really difficult to use well, I wouldn't run thousands of them. One unit with Plasma working with a unit of Kastelan to have the +1 to Hit stratagem can be really good when firing in overcharge, and with Ryza's stratagem they can be really dangerous. Just beware they're not really THAT tough. Breachers I don't recommend, they're just so very specific to use you'll be happy once when it works and then they'll disappoint you forever, you have to build your army around them and to be honest they're not worth it.
2) I play Stygies and really really like it, it helps A LOT to survive the shooting phase and the stratagem to Infiltrate at deployment can prove invaluable with the right units to help gain that range they need. Graia benefits infantry the most, but Stygies benefits all, just in a different manner. I strongly recommend you using Stygies, all depends on the playstyle you want to do with your army.
3) Yes of course, above 1500 pts you should always have one unit. Depending on the style of your list having between 2 and 6 is a good number, above that they're trickier to protect. If you don't want to build your list around full stationary artillery then don't run more than three to free points for your other units.
4) In theory you can run an AdMech Brigade for like 1100 pts but it's utter trash haha You'd be best trying to run a Batallion + other Detachments I believe. But if you can fill the three Fast Attack slots with enough Dragoons why not ? You'll definitely make use of the stratagems, so, maximise those CPs !
5) I explained in 1), They're expensive and not really tough. Just run more dudes save maybe a unit of plasma Destroyers, just have a plan when playing them.
Hope that block of text wasn't too harsh, but at least you have a "casual" opinion. Not that I hate competitive players but in this thread they'll make you dislike your army by saying everything is trash and to ally with Astra Militarum to have them fill 3/4 of your army. It's true to a certain extent, in tournaments, but you're not here to play tournaments as far as I understood so be rational when taking advice and ask yourself what you want to do when you're playing, and select your opponents based on your common interest in the game.
lash92 wrote: Hey there, I'm considering to start with AdMech, but I got some questions.
First of all I am not playing ultra competitive, I just wanna have a fair chance.
So for units I would like to field:
- sniper ranger
- some 5-10 man vanguard squads for the frontline duty
- Dragoons (absolutely my favourite model)
- Dunecrawler
- Infiltrators / Rusts talkers
- maybe some robots / kataphrons
1) Is this composition even viable or utter trash?
2) which forgeworld do you recommend? I was thinking about Graia or Stygies.
3) Shall I even bother with Robots without playing mars? If yes, what is a good unit size for them?
4) Is running a Brigade detachment at 2k points even realistic or shall I lean more towards 2x Batallion?
5) Whats your take on Destroyer / Breacher? Shall I take some to assist my advancing vanguard or should I just take more dudes?
Thanks in advance!
Hi, and welcome to AdMech ! Beware that this thread is heavily competitive-sided so you'll have most of your advice by competitive players, like Fafnir above who just answered you. If you're playing in a friendly environment, against fluff army lists or at least not WAAC lists you can be really fine playing AdMech with most of the units, because I have. I don't play the competitive players in my area because their lists look silly and I have more fun playing against regular lists, so it's your choice what you want to play against. I'll give advice based on that.
1) - Sniper Rangers are good, at least one min unit with two Arquebuses (and maybe an Omnispex) can do wonders as it's a really polyvalent weapon, just beware they can die easily though, don't really play more than two units of them.
- I love Vanguards, they look really nice and their firepower is not without its uses, just remember they're a anti-horde choice with their base gun so they'll do wonders against T3 weak units like Eldars or especially Tyranids. Don't expect them to bring down monstrous creatures and Terminators, you'll waste their shots. I recommend not going over 7-8 as far as unit size go, it's a nice balance between staying power and morale resistance. Plasma calivers work really well for them, that helps having more target choices. Arc rifles are good weapons too to deal with up to T6 units. As a golden rule try never shooting/assaulting a unit that you can't wound below 5+, use dedicated weaponry against each target.
- Good news for you Dragoons have become solid gold post-codex ! If it's really your favourite model I assume running two 2x Dragoons units shouldn't be a problem in the long term, that's the optimal loadout most of the time. Bigger units benefit better from the Conqueror Doctrina stratagem (which is why they're so awesome now) just because more models are affected by the stratagem, but they become hard to mover around beyond three in a single unit. Radium Jezzails are not worth taking honestly, even in a casual setting they will underperform. So Lances all the way !
- Dunecrawlers are excellent, but only the Neutron Laser and Icarus Array are good weapons. The Beam is just a downgrade of the Neutron Laser while the Phosphor blasters are already best used on your Robots. Lasers are excellent against anything while Icarus is more situational in my opinion, its volume of fire will cause some armies to fear them but against T7 flyers the Laser with a stratagem is just plain better to use (remember to always equip your Dunecrawlers with data-cables, it's way better than smoke launchers as it allows you to have +2 to Hit with the Protector stratagem).
- I love my Infiltrators, I run a single unit with Tasers and they rarely failed me. You just have to use them right against the right targets and they'll do wonders. Having an innate ability to deep-strike makes them really valuable as mobility is a big issue in our army, only helped by some Forge-Worlds like Stygies and Lucius, so you'll be happy to have them pop up wherever you need them to grab an objective and clean the enemy chaff on it.
- Ruststalkers are not really in a good position right now, Fulgurite Priests do their jobs better but suffer from their own ugliness model-wise sadly With their volume of attacks you really have to rely on having 6s to Wound for mortal wounds, rerolling 1s to Hit via the Canticle can be really useful to help them with that. I use mine to assault models with invulnerable saves and they did surprinsingly well on quite a few times.
- Robots are excellent ! Give them full phosphor, plant them somewhere open to have clear firing lines, keep a few units to screen and support them and they'll have a blast shooting off everything less than T7 off the board.
- Kataphrons are really difficult to use well, I wouldn't run thousands of them. One unit with Plasma working with a unit of Kastelan to have the +1 to Hit stratagem can be really good when firing in overcharge, and with Ryza's stratagem they can be really dangerous. Just beware they're not really THAT tough. Breachers I don't recommend, they're just so very specific to use you'll be happy once when it works and then they'll disappoint you forever, you have to build your army around them and to be honest they're not worth it.
2) I play Stygies and really really like it, it helps A LOT to survive the shooting phase and the stratagem to Infiltrate at deployment can prove invaluable with the right units to help gain that range they need. Graia benefits infantry the most, but Stygies benefits all, just in a different manner. I strongly recommend you using Stygies, all depends on the playstyle you want to do with your army.
3) Yes of course, above 1500 pts you should always have one unit. Depending on the style of your list having between 2 and 6 is a good number, above that they're trickier to protect. If you don't want to build your list around full stationary artillery then don't run more than three to free points for your other units.
4) In theory you can run an AdMech Brigade for like 1100 pts but it's utter trash haha You'd be best trying to run a Batallion + other Detachments I believe. But if you can fill the three Fast Attack slots with enough Dragoons why not ? You'll definitely make use of the stratagems, so, maximise those CPs !
5) I explained in 1), They're expensive and not really tough. Just run more dudes save maybe a unit of plasma Destroyers, just have a plan when playing them.
Hope that block of text wasn't too harsh, but at least you have a "casual" opinion. Not that I hate competitive players but in this thread they'll make you dislike your army by saying everything is trash and to ally with Astra Militarum to have them fill 3/4 of your army. It's true to a certain extent, in tournaments, but you're not here to play tournaments as far as I understood so be rational when taking advice and ask yourself what you want to do when you're playing, and select your opponents based on your common interest in the game.
First of all thanks for your input, I really appreciate your afford Yeah you are right I'm not a tournament guy, I just want to habe a shot against my friends (so I am somewhere in between fluffy and waac)
So I wrote a concept for an list (about 2000 points) to know what I should buy, maybe you could take a look at it?
Iago40k wrote: hmm about those earthshakers. If one wants to take artillery, are they really the best bet? Is high strenght low number of shots what we need as artillery? What are their primary targets other weapons from AdMech cant kill?
The major benefit is their cost-to-firepower ration. They are a steal (and that makes me worry about a future Errata, for sure).
Being able to roll two dice and take the highest when firing their d6 shots makes them very good. It goes from low shots to moderate shots regularly. With 3-4 of them, you have 4d6 shots at S9 -2 d3 damage. That can help us put down anything high toughness (wounding on 2's often) and the d3 damage means we can do 3d3 or 4d3 damage somewhat regularly, which is ~6-8 damage. That isn't bad per gun. Plus, going Cadian you can re-roll hit rolls of 1 if you didn't move previously (lol immobile).
Also, we can do this without line-of-sight, which is a huge boon, as Wulfey said. Our Neutronagers and Wrathbots aren't going to be able to shoot everything, because folks will get behind LoS-blocking terrain - this gives us more firepower on cheap platforms that can hit anything on the table.
but what models are there where you need a neutronager for but the unit can hide from? Thats what i mean. Artillery is great but i dont see why this artillery needs to be earthshakers other than "well its op, thats why." Any targets that earthshakers are good for can already be killed by onagers and wrathbots. I think artillery that is s5 or s6 with more shots to clear out hiding infantry eg dark reapers or oblits would be more effective.
I think that's 6 of one half dozen of the other. Str 9 with multiple damage will clear out hard targets. The stormshard will wipe out infantry. I think a mix is a good idea
Iago40k wrote: hmm about those earthshakers. If one wants to take artillery, are they really the best bet? Is high strenght low number of shots what we need as artillery? What are their primary targets other weapons from AdMech cant kill?
The major benefit is their cost-to-firepower ration. They are a steal (and that makes me worry about a future Errata, for sure).
Being able to roll two dice and take the highest when firing their d6 shots makes them very good. It goes from low shots to moderate shots regularly. With 3-4 of them, you have 4d6 shots at S9 -2 d3 damage. That can help us put down anything high toughness (wounding on 2's often) and the d3 damage means we can do 3d3 or 4d3 damage somewhat regularly, which is ~6-8 damage. That isn't bad per gun. Plus, going Cadian you can re-roll hit rolls of 1 if you didn't move previously (lol immobile).
Also, we can do this without line-of-sight, which is a huge boon, as Wulfey said. Our Neutronagers and Wrathbots aren't going to be able to shoot everything, because folks will get behind LoS-blocking terrain - this gives us more firepower on cheap platforms that can hit anything on the table.
but what models are there where you need a neutronager for but the unit can hide from? Thats what i mean. Artillery is great but i dont see why this artillery needs to be earthshakers other than "well its op, thats why." Any targets that earthshakers are good for can already be killed by onagers and wrathbots. I think artillery that is s5 or s6 with more shots to clear out hiding infantry eg dark reapers or oblits would be more effective.
Units can hide behind LoS. Being a static gunline, we need the option to strike outside of LoS (especially folks stuck in an ITC environment). Yea, our Neutronagers can handle a lot, but not if you can't get good LoS. Sometimes that is the opponent hiding, sometimes it is bad deployment options and terrain, etc. Also, why not? It brings more guns affordably with the CCCP and Conscripts to help make our army function better (more Wraths, good tarpit).
I rarely see Dark Reapers and when I see Oblits, they aren't hiding. Those I would just smash up with Wrathbots. But a Wave Serpent, Chimera or Crisis Suit tucked behind LoS-blocking terrain? Bingo.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gendoikari87 wrote: I think that's 6 of one half dozen of the other. Str 9 with multiple damage will clear out hard targets. The stormshard will wipe out infantry. I think a mix is a good idea
Not sure we need a Wyvern. If we did bring one though, it might help against hidden low toughness infantry.
Another option, albeit more expensive, is to take a unit of three Heavy Mortars. This clocks in at 156pt, so 63pt more than a Wyvern. While it throws total one less die overall (4d6 vs 3d6) and doesn't re-roll wounds, it is S6 AP -1 and D3 damage.
I think the Wyvern likely puts out more wounds thanks to the re-rolls, but I am awful at math and haven't crunched the numbers. But gendoikari makes a valid point that having at least one dedicated anti-infantry artillery piece that shoots out of LoS might be very useful.
Edit: One other benefit might be the lack of overkilling. 4d6 shots vs doing 1d6, 1d6 and then 1d6 (as each mortar shoots on its own). You can split that fire out a bit more widely. Not sure that is worth the extra points or whatnot, but its an option.
Alcibiades wrote: NOTE: I am NOT asking them from a competitive/tournament POV, but from a general viability fun POV.
Since this is supposedly the Horde Edition, has anybody tried this with AdMech? I mean, loading up on Skitarii, Lots and lots of clockwork men.
Our low leadership and pricey troop units make it not particularly viable. That is why you see min squads here and usually bare-bones.
You can mitigate that with canticles and data-tethers though (a skitarii unit with an enhanced data tether near a vehicle should have +2 Leadership, no?)..
Alcibiades wrote: NOTE: I am NOT asking them from a competitive/tournament POV, but from a general viability fun POV.
Since this is supposedly the Horde Edition, has anybody tried this with AdMech? I mean, loading up on Skitarii, Lots and lots of clockwork men.
Our low leadership and pricey troop units make it not particularly viable. That is why you see min squads here and usually bare-bones.
You can mitigate that with canticles and data-tethers though (a skitarii unit with an enhanced data tether near a vehicle should have +2 Leadership, no?)..
In any case, I'm going to try it.
EDT only allows you to re-roll failed Morale tests. The BSDT adds +1 and is not cumulative with other vehicles.
But the EDT costs a lot for that perk and yes, the BSDT is useful to get us up to Ld8, we still stand to lose a a couple of guys to most rounds of shooting on average due to morale. Our guys are squishy, even with the 6++.
You can give it a go in a non-competitive environment and see how it goes. Squads of 10 with Calivers coming in via Teleportarium would be pretty gnarly - either with a TPD dropped in nearby to re-roll 1's or Conquerer tossed on them for that +2 to-hit (thanks to the EDT).
EDIT:
And because I am at work and don't like to actually.... work. Here is a theoretical list that shouldn't get steamrolled, has some "optimal" choices, but also goes for the TPD & Plasma Vanguard Teleport. It is like right on the edge of being TFG, but hopefully without max Robot and the fact you are using Lucius, your fellow gamers won't give you too much crap!
They're only +4 T3 though if you go 5 man squads you probably won't have to worry about morale (because they'll all be wiped) . Could try msu that way but this is not the edition for msu.
A full squad deep striking might be useful. I do still like the idea a few pages back of 3 min squads with no special weapons to be a low priority objective grabber. Have to see how that works though
Automatically Appended Next Post: question for a friend: if you played dark angels and orks. How would you deal with a unit of kastelans 4 to be precise? Running agrapinaa
Question: Are people bouncing shots back on 6s on any save roll with the Kastalans? The way I'm reading the rules is you only get the bounce back mortal wound effect on a 6 is if you are specifically using the invulernable saving throw, and not the standard armor saving throw
gendoikari87 wrote: question for a friend: if you played dark angels and orks. How would you deal with a unit of kastelans 4 to be precise? Running agrapinaa
Turn one, aim all your anti tank guns at them. Shoot them with all said guns.
Suzuteo wrote: Eldar Fire Prisms get Grinding Advance. And -1 to hit at 12". T_T
Yeah. I am pretty much retiring after this weekend. If you put 1300 of 2000 points on the table that is admech, and the other guy has fire prisms, you lose. Period.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: Oh really? And you base breachers being tough on what?
Have you done a toughness spreadsheet? Because I have. And even with bolters against rangers (4 str vs 3 tgh), the Rangers are still tougher point per point.
Tougher against what? And have you considered points and scoring and morale? The rangers squads can readily feed "kill a unit" to your opponent.
~148 of breachers is 3x3 T5 3+ wounds
~148 of rangers is ~18.5 T3 4+ wounds
Against bolter / lasgun fire the breachers are significantly more durable. Assume both models are in cover from shroudspalm.
Assuming a bolter that hits on a 3+ and has no AP it take 85 bolter shots to drop a breacher.
85*0.67*0.33*0.16 = 3
Versus rangers this will kill 12.6 rangers.
85*0.67*0.67*0.33 = 12.6
Assuming a heavy bolter that hits on a 3+:
27*0.67*0.5*0.33 = 3, 27 HB shots to get a statistical kill on a breacher
27HB shots gets 6 kills on the rangers:
27*0.67*0.67*0.5 = 6
Breachers do seriously fall behind once they start getting shot with lascannons. Or certain damage 3 weapons like the hellstrike missile.
Suzuteo wrote: Eldar Fire Prisms get Grinding Advance. And -1 to hit at 12". T_T
Yeah. I am pretty much retiring after this weekend. If you put 1300 of 2000 points on the table that is admech, and the other guy has fire prisms, you lose. Period.
If this is going to be a thing, they need to give it to Crawlers or we're just out of luck as a shooting army. Infantry without transports, tanks with half the shots...
Suzuteo wrote: Eldar Fire Prisms get Grinding Advance. And -1 to hit at 12". T_T
Yeah. I am pretty much retiring after this weekend. If you put 1300 of 2000 points on the table that is admech, and the other guy has fire prisms, you lose. Period.
If this is going to be a thing, they need to give it to Crawlers or we're just out of luck as a shooting army. Infantry without transports, tanks with half the shots...
Yea. If this is a trend with releases going forward that we stay kinda at the mediocre-to-bad level, I might shelve or possibly sell my army. I love the hobby aspect, but I don't like getting steamrolled either and my LGS is on the heavy competitive end of the spectrum.
Correct. Confirmed as 2018 by FW on the Twitch feed yesterday. Very annoying. No firm dates for really anything. Not even "Q1" or anything. So much "next year" talk that it was a joke by the end of the stream.
I love GW and FW, but holy crap they can be frustrating.
Correct. Confirmed as 2018 by FW on the Twitch feed yesterday. Very annoying. No firm dates for really anything. Not even "Q1" or anything. So much "next year" talk that it was a joke by the end of the stream.
I love GW and FW, but holy crap they can be frustrating.
Not seeing how Ciraxus fixes anything.
Secutarii would get peed on by the Fire Prisms Str6, -3, d1 profile that gets 12 shots if it goes slow.
The big resin robots and castellaxes tend to have 4+ BS or fall into the dreaded 3-4 wounds and T5 category. The mid range Fire Prism profile pees on those at 2d3 shots of Str9, -4, d3.
Also, the only things in Ciraxus that is going to increase mobility are the transports and the jetpack T5 guys.
But the transports are huge point sinks and we don't have 20 man blob squads to justify them
And the T5 guys will likely not get 'vehicle' levels of wounds and end up being 3 wounds like the Kataphrons.
If we are counting on Ciraxus, then we are really just hoping Forgeworld screws up and writes bonkers rules. Which I admit is a possibility.
Correct. Confirmed as 2018 by FW on the Twitch feed yesterday. Very annoying. No firm dates for really anything. Not even "Q1" or anything. So much "next year" talk that it was a joke by the end of the stream.
I love GW and FW, but holy crap they can be frustrating.
Not seeing how Ciraxus fixes anything.
Secutarii would get peed on by the Fire Prisms Str6, -3, d1 profile that gets 12 shots if it goes slow.
The big resin robots and castellaxes tend to have 4+ BS or fall into the dreaded 3-4 wounds and T5 category. The mid range Fire Prism profile pees on those at 2d3 shots of Str9, -4, d3.
Also, the only things in Ciraxus that is going to increase mobility are the transports and the jetpack T5 guys.
But the transports are huge point sinks and we don't have 20 man blob squads to justify them
And the T5 guys will likely not get 'vehicle' levels of wounds and end up being 3 wounds like the Kataphrons.
If we are counting on Ciraxus, then we are really just hoping Forgeworld screws up and writes bonkers rules. Which I admit is a possibility.
Those stats will look nothing like they do in horus heresy. IIRC kastelans in 7th were 3 wounds each, so those big bots with 4 and 5 wounds will probably be more like 10 and 8
Secutarii would get peed on by the Fire Prisms Str6, -3, d1 profile that gets 12 shots if it goes slow.
i mean it's not like they're getting a 18 shot str 6 ap -2 weapon for 110 points.....
Alright, finished up painting my tourney list. I am still running celestine in place of the drop plasma elysians. I feel like a good opponent will screen out the drop plasma guys and deny me a good target. But celestine is guaranteed kills on things and a giant fire magnet. The elysians felt like free ITC mission points when I dropped them down. I get that they are point for point the most efficient damage in the game. But man are they insta dead the turn after they drop. Also, I think dragoons are also a very good unit for ITC since they are a hard 'unit' to kill and don't give up Big Game Hunter. Celestine with the geminae can face tank all kinds of overwatch and no one can resist shooting at her. But the Elysians ... if your opponent has access to -1 to be hit, then they really start to stink. Or if your opponent isn't tarded and brings a screen that puts your elysians more than 12" from those good tank targets ... urg. I feel like if I bring my Elysians, they will help me beat easy opponents that make basic mistakes, but won't help against good opponents. Also, I love my converted eversor assassins. But in ITC they are 1 character point that you are guaranteed to give up and they compete with dragoons. Eversors really are better at killing back field horrors, but my dragoons have the flexibility to threaten anything in melee with that Str8.
IMPERIUM Vanguard Celestine + 1 Geminae- 150+50 Astropath- 15 [laspistol, no staff] Astropath- 15 [laspistol, no staff] Commisar- 30 1 [bolt pistol, no melee]
CADIAN Spearhead Company Commander- 30 [Warlord, Kurov's Aquila + Grand Strategist, laspistol/chainsword] 1x30 Conscripts- 90 Master of Ordinance- 25 [laspistol, optionally takes Relic of Lost Cadia for 1CP] Earthshaker Battery- 80 Earthshaker Battery- 80 Earthshaker Battery- 80
EDIT: I could turn celestine into 2x Elysian commanders and 2x plasmacide squads with no other substitutions. I will bring them just in case I change my mind some time tonight.
Octovol wrote: It’s funny because both the Eldar and IG threads are also whining that they’re not competitive and that their codexes are useless to them lol.
All the -1 to hit traits are a cop out if you ask me, way too powerful.
The Eldar preview thread just took a massive turnaround now that we've seen some of the less bland changes that are being made. Peoples' primary complaint about the Eldar traits is that they're just not particularly fluffy or diverse. As for IG... the only legitimate complaint for them is that they're too good.
Octovol wrote: It’s funny because both the Eldar and IG threads are also whining that they’re not competitive and that their codexes are useless to them lol.
All the -1 to hit traits are a cop out if you ask me, way too powerful.
Naw. It's generally a fair rule that helps encourage close combat, which the game severely lacked in prior editions. I think GW is putting out less unique rules in an effort to keep the game more balanced, too.
LexOdin9 wrote: I'm going to be honest here, outside of the occasional new player asking for advice, this tactica thread is dead.
Well, with a codex so one-dimensional, there's really not a whole lot left to discuss. We know what the few viable options are, we know how they interact together, and we know that our options are generally going to be lacklustre. The only thing left to discuss is just how screwed Admech gets with each codex release, and just how further the faction is going to fade from relevance.
Until Fires of Cyraxis or Chapter Approved do something worthwhile (assuming either one of them even do that), we're mostly just a strategic dead end left to contemplate retirement to the shelf.
The Admech codex isn't bad per say. Its just really disapointing.
I fully agree it has some serious flaws though. TPD is absurdly overpriced. Servitors are way overpriced. Breachers are just a tad too expensive and Destroyers either need a slight points reduction or a slight buff to survivability.
Skitarri vanguard need to be dropped to 8pts per model and they will be gold. Rangers I think are perfectly costed.Enginseer is 10 points too much. Either give him an Aura ability like +1 LD for 6" or drop him down to 42 pts. Right now he is primairly being used as a tax and really nothing else. And Christ why cant he take a plasma pistol!?!?
Infiltrators and Ruststalkers are slightly too expensive. I feel like the base points of the infiltrators should be 14 and rustsalkers 12 then add wargear. Infiltrators are good despite their expense. Ruststalkers look awesome but are hot garbage.
Electro priests are fine. Though I am disappointed in the disco sticks point increase. I understand why they did it.
Datasmith. Fine. Wish he could repair things other than robots.
Ironstriders are undercosted. Their effectiveness helps make up for the rest of our armys poor point values. Though to be honest, if they costed any more points I think I wouldn't take them and just take the Dunecawlers instead.
Robots. Expensive but good. No change needed imo.
Dunecrawler. Super undercosted. Primary unit in the codex, I think they made this thing so good and so excellent in points that the ENTIRE codex was written to sell this model and robots.
Dragoons. Overall fine. I'd like to see the Cognis Lazcannon dropped a few points.
In my opinion the units are meh overall, but the codex gives us many more options to do strange things or play in different ways which can allow you to radically change your army list. Maybe not super competitive, but it has options. Due to that, I don't think our codex is crap. But at the end of the year when the Handbook comes out with all the changes and adjustments for all factions/indexs. And if they STILL do not address the Admech overcost problems. I think its safe to say, GW has shelved the army and is focused on doing other things. At that point I fear we Admech players will just have to wait for 9th edition to get any real change.
lash92 wrote: First of all thanks for your input, I really appreciate your afford Yeah you are right I'm not a tournament guy, I just want to habe a shot against my friends (so I am somewhere in between fluffy and waac)
So I wrote a concept for an list (about 2000 points) to know what I should buy, maybe you could take a look at it?
Alternatively I could swap out a dunecrawler and 2 Dragoons for a Datasmith and 3 Kastelens.
I don't know how many Infiltrators you wanted to use, but I have about 1500 pts when I calculate your list, so there's room for at least a small Kastelan Maniple. Didn't you want Rangers with Arquebuses too ? I wouldn't recommend too much Domini because they're fairly expensive in points, but their aura is welcome, you could have one staying near the Onagers/Kastelans and another advancing with the Vanguards to power them up with rerolls, especially good for plasma Vanguards to shoot in overcharge risk-free. I can write you a little list at 2000 pts tomorrow if you'd like, with two Battalions to have 9 CPs. In the meantime tell me what playstyle you'd like, which Forge-World you want to play and if you already have any AdMech models.
lash92 wrote: First of all thanks for your input, I really appreciate your afford Yeah you are right I'm not a tournament guy, I just want to habe a shot against my friends (so I am somewhere in between fluffy and waac)
So I wrote a concept for an list (about 2000 points) to know what I should buy, maybe you could take a look at it?
Alternatively I could swap out a dunecrawler and 2 Dragoons for a Datasmith and 3 Kastelens.
I don't know how many Infiltrators you wanted to use, but I have about 1500 pts when I calculate your list, so there's room for at least a small Kastelan Maniple. Didn't you want Rangers with Arquebuses too ? I wouldn't recommend too much Domini because they're fairly expensive in points, but their aura is welcome, you could have one staying near the Onagers/Kastelans and another advancing with the Vanguards to power them up with rerolls, especially good for plasma Vanguards to shoot in overcharge risk-free. I can write you a little list at 2000 pts tomorrow if you'd like, with two Battalions to have 9 CPs. In the meantime tell me what playstyle you'd like, which Forge-World you want to play and if you already have any AdMech models.
Forgot to mention the Ranger. Wanted to include two 5 men squads with 2 Arquebuses and an Omnispex each.
Sure I would like that, if you can find time for that As for playstyle I would like to field an advancing gunline of Vanguard to grab objectives, support by my backfield castel of Dunecrawler and maybe robots.
And some Dragoons for melee action.
Do you think I would benefit more from Mars or from Stygies?
The -1 to hit is a really nice boost, but the reroll all misses from Cawl is also really tempting.
But if I play Mars wouldn't it be better to just run 5 man squads because of the missing -1? But how can I play objective based missions then?
@tsol
Kataphrons, Ruststalkers and servitors aren't slightly overpriced... Their cost needs to be cut in HALF. I'm not joking, I did math on most of these
rvd1ofakind wrote: @tsol
Kataphrons, Ruststalkers and servitors aren't slightly overpriced... Their cost needs to be cut in HALF. I'm not joking, I did math on most of these
not quite sure about half on destroyers 45-55 maybe. servitors need something more than just a point reduction. they need expanded unit selection I.e. larger units and more can take heavy weapons. Ruststalkers are horrible and infiltrators did NOT need that reduction in attacks
rvd1ofakind wrote: @tsol
Kataphrons, Ruststalkers and servitors aren't slightly overpriced... Their cost needs to be cut in HALF. I'm not joking, I did math on most of these
Yep. I always got the feeling that the WarConvo screwed us for 8th. The playtesters definitely overcosted us and now without any major price offset, we are not remotely competitive outside of being a niche soup build.
NOOO. WHY DO YOU TEMPT ME? I was also thinking about magnetizing Leman Russ bits to the side of my Crawlers and just using their rules. (It makes no sense why AdMech guns should have less range and power than a double-shooting Guard turret.)
That being said, does anyone have an old print or DKOK Leman Russ turret and can give me the dimensions? Given it fits one dude in the cupola, I THINK it might fit on the side with the proper mount, but I want to double check.
Suzuteo wrote: NOOO. WHY DO YOU TEMPT ME? I was also thinking about magnetizing Leman Russ bits to the side of my Crawlers and just using their rules. (It makes no sense why AdMech guns should have less range and power than a double-shooting Guard turret.)
That being said, does anyone have an old print or DKOK Leman Russ turret and can give me the dimensions? Given it fits one dude in the cupola, I THINK it might fit on the side with the proper mount, but I want to double check.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh actually, anyone have the dimensions for these Ryza pattern turrets?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_vcg8qv3nees/SisoYG7p9TI/AAAAAAAADZg/8zc07j6LY1c/s1600/Ryzalr1.jpg
As you can see from my picture, the Leman Russ Turret does not fit well. The one I have pictured is the current russ turret. I also tried the old style turret. The current one is too small, the old one is much too small.
In the foreground I have posted a Baneblade turret on the Crawler legs. That looks like a good size to me, to represent the high wounds and toughness 8.
Ah man. Okay. I think I will go back to thinking about how I can fit a Battle Cannon bit onto some Neutron Laser mount bits. (That or kitbash a non-GW turret.)
Suzuteo wrote: Ah man. Okay. I think I will go back to thinking about how I can fit a Battle Cannon bit onto some Neutron Laser mount bits. (That or kitbash a non-GW turret.)
Yeah, that shouldn't be too hard. I'm going with the bane blade turret as a body/turret.
rvd1ofakind wrote: @tsol
Kataphrons, Ruststalkers and servitors aren't slightly overpriced... Their cost needs to be cut in HALF. I'm not joking, I did math on most of these
not quite sure about half on destroyers 45-55 maybe. servitors need something more than just a point reduction. they need expanded unit selection I.e. larger units and more can take heavy weapons. Ruststalkers are horrible and infiltrators did NOT need that reduction in attacks
I’d like to see both kataphrons get double their current wounds before I consider them worth their points. I mean a destroyer with a culverin is 70 and 73 with a heavy grav, plus the phosphor blaster (which if you ask me should replace all phosphor serpenta and just get rid of that pos) they’re not expensive as an option, they’re only expensive because they can’t do their role of heavy ranged infantry well enough. An autocannon Ironstrider is 75 points, has double the wounds, more attacks and toughness, more movement, better shooting ability, a better save, better synergy with our strategms and comparable dmg output. ~5 points difference.
FYI dunecrawler points cost is absolutely fine. Leman russ, Falcon grav tanks and fire prisms are all now within 10-20 points of each other, ours being the cheapest of all of them.
2x Heavy D6 S8 AP-2 D3 at 72" with BS4+, reroll shot volume and misses
One Heavy Bolter
T8 W12 Sv3+
162 points
Heavy D3 S10 AP-4 D6min3 at 48" with BS3+. reroll hits
Two Heavy Stubbers
T7 W11 Sv3+ 4++ reroll 1s
140 points
22 more points buys you more damage against anything with an invincible save or below T8. Basically, Crawlers used to be the best tank on the block, and now we're slightly above average--and only against other tanks T8 and above.
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