What are these people with these awful awful lists doing in the SoCal Open?
One list has 3 dominus?
The other has a mars brigade without dragoons???
Another runs a mars vanguard detachment?????
Another runs Kastelans in the stygies detachment with phosphor and FLAMERS and has Cawl in the other Mars detachment????????????
All of them haven't cracked top 90. Wow, who knew :p
Then another guy runs Scions instead of Elysians?
Then a guy runs Bullgryns instead on conscripts?
Finally, an actually competant pure AdMech list is 44th(LWW):
Mars + stygies with 20 melee priests
Finally a soup list is undefeated yet:
With Mars Spearhead + Dragoons
Celestene
Astropath, Comisar, conscripts, Batteries
My gaming group (after seeing falcons getting grinding advance) is considering allowing for the Onager eradication beamer and HPB to fire twice its shots with a grinding advance style rule - do you guys think the weapon would need a points bump along with that?
rvd1ofakind wrote: What are these people with these awful awful lists doing in the SoCal Open?
One list has 3 dominus?
The other has a mars brigade without dragoons???
Another runs a mars vanguard detachment?????
Another runs Kastelans in the stygies detachment with phosphor and FLAMERS and has Cawl in the other Mars detachment????????????
All of them haven't cracked top 90. Wow, who knew :p
Then another guy runs Scions instead of Elysians?
Then a guy runs Bullgryns instead on conscripts?
Finally, an actually competant pure AdMech list is 44th(LWW):
Mars + stygies with 20 melee priests
Finally a soup list is undefeated yet:
With Mars Spearhead + Dragoons
Celestene
Astropath, Comisar, conscripts, Batteries
I wouldn't be surprised if most players who know what they're doing have seen Admech for the crap that it is, and have left it entirely, leaving just a few who have no real idea what to throw together.
lash92 wrote: Forgot to mention the Ranger. Wanted to include two 5 men squads with 2 Arquebuses and an Omnispex each.
Sure I would like that, if you can find time for that As for playstyle I would like to field an advancing gunline of Vanguard to grab objectives, support by my backfield castel of Dunecrawler and maybe robots.
And some Dragoons for melee action.
Do you think I would benefit more from Mars or from Stygies?
The -1 to hit is a really nice boost, but the reroll all misses from Cawl is also really tempting.
But if I play Mars wouldn't it be better to just run 5 man squads because of the missing -1? But how can I play objective based missions then?
Stygies adds a lot for the survivability while Mars will turn more around a devastating artillery.
With Stygies your units gain a lot of survivability against ranged attack so that they can make the trip to their objectives and stay alive long enough to have their own guns in range, Vanguards especially will need it due to their short range. I intend to play swarms of Vanguards too actually, I love AdMech infantry Their unique infiltration stratagem is really helpful too, it can help you place a Vanguard unit in a good spot, use melee Kastelans effectively or, in the case of your list, place Dragoons in a position from which they can charge turn 1, forming a distraction unit that is both somewhat durable and really powerful. Present this threat to your opponent early on and he'll focus those instead of your more important units. If he doesn't he's about to discover what a dozen S8 hits can do to an army.
Mars encourages you more to have a strong artillery, because you'll obviously have Cawl in your army, giving a reroll hits aura of 9" in which you can place 4 Kastelans and your Dunecrawlers, sometimes even your Snipers. Kataphrons really benefit from that too. Thing is, you'll rely more on tabling your opponent than playing the objectives, and against certain armies you may lose due to that if the terrain is set up a certain way. You'll need abundant screening units too, that will serve as a shield against enemy melee units, and to put deep-strikers out of threatening distance, otherwise your core army could get engaged in CC and you'll most likely lose that battle. The big strength of Mars is the Wrath of Mars stratagem, which is the reason why you'll want loads of Kastelans that reroll all hit rolls. They can destroy ANYTHING in range of their guns with this stratagem, but they have to be protected. That's how Mars plays, while you could see any other army like Stygies as a wide-spread army on the table with a certain number of lone operatives, you'll have Mars as a single bubble of slow destruction, with every element of the army dedicated to the protection of the artillery.
If you play Mars well you can be really destructive, but it's not the kind of list everyone wants to face, especially in a casual meta. I know I hate facing immobile gunlines, because most of the time it's just a matter of how many of my guys will be alive by the time they're in range to do anything useful. Playing AdMech like that feels boring to me, it's fun a few times but then you actually want a movement phase some days. Stygies might be more fun thanks to the better survivability that encourages you to move out. Graia can be very nice too to help your 1W models survive, and you have access to a deny the witch stratagem that can be really useful too.
EDIT: Here's a base for a 2000 pts list with your favoured models, you have 1940 pts, this gives you room for upgrades, more units or whatever, this is more a guideline than a list you absolutely have to follow through of course I suggest adding some mortal wounds units, like Fulgurites or Ruststalkers with Razors + Chordclaw, to deal with units with big invulnerable saves like Assault Terminators and the likes. If you chose to play Mars the Kastelans or Infiltrators will suffice with the Stratagem I guess.
lash92 wrote: Forgot to mention the Ranger. Wanted to include two 5 men squads with 2 Arquebuses and an Omnispex each.
Sure I would like that, if you can find time for that As for playstyle I would like to field an advancing gunline of Vanguard to grab objectives, support by my backfield castel of Dunecrawler and maybe robots.
And some Dragoons for melee action.
Do you think I would benefit more from Mars or from Stygies?
The -1 to hit is a really nice boost, but the reroll all misses from Cawl is also really tempting.
But if I play Mars wouldn't it be better to just run 5 man squads because of the missing -1? But how can I play objective based missions then?
Stygies adds a lot for the survivability while Mars will turn more around a devastating artillery.
With Stygies your units gain a lot of survivability against ranged attack so that they can make the trip to their objectives and stay alive long enough to have their own guns in range, Vanguards especially will need it due to their short range. I intend to play swarms of Vanguards too actually, I love AdMech infantry Their unique infiltration stratagem is really helpful too, it can help you place a Vanguard unit in a good spot, use melee Kastelans effectively or, in the case of your list, place Dragoons in a position from which they can charge turn 1, forming a distraction unit that is both somewhat durable and really powerful. Present this threat to your opponent early on and he'll focus those instead of your more important units. If he doesn't he's about to discover what a dozen S8 hits can do to an army.
Mars encourages you more to have a strong artillery, because you'll obviously have Cawl in your army, giving a reroll hits aura of 9" in which you can place 4 Kastelans and your Dunecrawlers, sometimes even your Snipers. Kataphrons really benefit from that too. Thing is, you'll rely more on tabling your opponent than playing the objectives, and against certain armies you may lose due to that if the terrain is set up a certain way. You'll need abundant screening units too, that will serve as a shield against enemy melee units, and to put deep-strikers out of threatening distance, otherwise your core army could get engaged in CC and you'll most likely lose that battle. The big strength of Mars is the Wrath of Mars stratagem, which is the reason why you'll want loads of Kastelans that reroll all hit rolls. They can destroy ANYTHING in range of their guns with this stratagem, but they have to be protected. That's how Mars plays, while you could see any other army like Stygies as a wide-spread army on the table with a certain number of lone operatives, you'll have Mars as a single bubble of slow destruction, with every element of the army dedicated to the protection of the artillery.
If you play Mars well you can be really destructive, but it's not the kind of list everyone wants to face, especially in a casual meta. I know I hate facing immobile gunlines, because most of the time it's just a matter of how many of my guys will be alive by the time they're in range to do anything useful. Playing AdMech like that feels boring to me, it's fun a few times but then you actually want a movement phase some days. Stygies might be more fun thanks to the better survivability that encourages you to move out. Graia can be very nice too to help your 1W models survive, and you have access to a deny the witch stratagem that can be really useful too.
EDIT: Here's a base for a 2000 pts list with your favoured models, you have 1940 pts, this gives you room for upgrades, more units or whatever, this is more a guideline than a list you absolutely have to follow through of course I suggest adding some mortal wounds units, like Fulgurites or Ruststalkers with Razors + Chordclaw, to deal with units with big invulnerable saves like Assault Terminators and the likes. If you chose to play Mars the Kastelans or Infiltrators will suffice with the Stratagem I guess.
First of all thank you very much for all your help, that was nice input for starting my AdMech force.
Yeah I also love the infantry, especially the Skitarii I think I will stick to Stygies because their playstyle seems just a lot more fun for me.
Hey guys, one thing i just noticed, is crusaders got added to the Astra militarum book with the astra militarum keyword. (they were NOT given the <regiment> keyword however so not sure if that's really much of a change.... )
no idea how good they are but the models are fething fantastic and easily made into admech counts as, you can load them a priest and something else up in a chimera so that's 15 points for a 3++ 3 attacks at str 3 AP -3
didn't see the option for the priest to take an evicerator though, so i'mma keep looking.
again, never tried crusaders or did the mathhammer on them but they seem fun and look cool
of course this is also a good way to use those FW skitarii too.
I play Krieg casually, and in local tournaments, and recently built an Atropos. I know it's far from a minmax unit, but what can I say, I love playing it! Blunt force trauma all the way! Plus a 3++ against shooting (with the strat), backing up T8 W27 is pretty tasty and can have a decent psychological impact.
Anyway, I'm severely tempted to blow some money on a single AdMech detachment to unlock the very nice strategems for my knight.
Can anyone recommend a single detachment to roll into an Atropos/Krieg army?
From what I've been reading on this thread, I was thinking Stygies Outrider or Spearhead: either an Enginseer HQ & 3 striders, or a TPD HQ with 3 Onegars. What do you guys think?
The rest of my army tends to be deathriders and hades drills for deepstrike elements, sometimes an eversor; 3 squads for shielding; a mix of quad and medusa artillery; a cheesy taurox prime or two for horde control; 3 primaris psykers for denial and allround goodness.
But I don't agree on your strats - Machine Spirit Resurgent is not junk. Bringing your 550pt investment back up to peak performance for 1cp is a bargain; degrading stats are a huge brake on knights' usefulness imo, with no other way of curtailing it, unlike Valhallen SHTs, who basically get it for free. But Knight of Cogs is pretty meh, I agree. The strat that bestows 5+++ against mortal wounds for the round isn't bad either, considering the amount of smite spam wafting around my local scene.
But I don't agree on your strats - Machine Spirit Resurgent is not junk. Bringing your 550pt investment back up to peak performance for 1cp is a bargain; degrading stats are a huge brake on knights' usefulness imo, with no other way of curtailing it, unlike Valhallen SHTs, who basically get it for free. But Knight of Cogs is pretty meh, I agree. The strat that bestows 5+++ against mortal wounds for the round isn't bad either, considering the amount of smite spam wafting around my local scene.
It depends on the list, but since Knights are pretty sub-par in the environment, keeping them fighting fit sounds good... or just don't take a Knight that requires babysitting? Notice a trend here with most of us eschewing them? That is because outside of fun games, they are a 585pt liability.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FYI, some new FAQs hit.
Earthshakers are AP -3 now.
Elysians got the Command Squad limit - like we knew they would.
Also, not a big deal - but no MoO for the Earthshakers.
The huge change that struck me was the Summary Exection change. Whooooboy. That really shakes things up.
"Send in the next wave!" apparently now requires reinforcement points.
So I guess this means Conscripts maybe aren't going to be our no-brainer go-to? Thoughts?
Disappointing that Admech saw nothing after the disappointment that was their original FAQ, but I assume that we're just waiting (hoping) on Chapter Approved at this point for some serious overhauling.
Probably not. Without any blatant power abuses, Admech is likely to just flit down the memory hole and be forgotten by GW's writers as quickly as they right-clicked the codex together.
Fafnir wrote: Probably not. Without any blatant power abuses, Admech is likely to just flit down the memory hole and be forgotten by GW's writers as quickly as they right-clicked the codex together.
Well, the AM eratta was quite the game-changer.. no more uber objective holding Conscripts - Get into Cover only affecting infantry, among other things.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Well, the AM eratta was quite the game-changer.. no more uber objective holding Conscripts - Get into Cover only affecting infantry, among other things.
i doubt you will see a huge shift overnight, there's still going to be a lot of people showing up with giant conscript blobs, they're still going to be a lot of wounds to get through, it's just going to be easier to get through them now. I doubt conscripts will be made useless by this. more like they'll be balanced. eventually the meta will settle, and i doubt conscripts will be on top anymore but they'll still be there. razorspam ... that'll be a good contender for top now.
Suzuteo wrote: As impressive as Storm Shields are... these guys are still W1. FRFSFR is going to rake them...
if you play units in transports right you should not have to worry about FRFSRF. not too much anyway. the 1W part isn't the problem it's the T3 str 3 and NO shooting ability . which is why i'll be heavily playtesting before committing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also looking at the Taghmata list from 30k.... yeah GW if you could just copy and paste the tech priest auxilia straight over, that'd be greaaaaaaaaaaaat.
rvd1ofakind wrote: @tsol
Kataphrons, Ruststalkers and servitors aren't slightly overpriced... Their cost needs to be cut in HALF. I'm not joking, I did math on most of these
not quite sure about half on destroyers 45-55 maybe. servitors need something more than just a point reduction. they need expanded unit selection I.e. larger units and more can take heavy weapons. Ruststalkers are horrible and infiltrators did NOT need that reduction in attacks
I’d like to see both kataphrons get double their current wounds before I consider them worth their points. I mean a destroyer with a culverin is 70 and 73 with a heavy grav, plus the phosphor blaster (which if you ask me should replace all phosphor serpenta and just get rid of that pos) they’re not expensive as an option, they’re only expensive because they can’t do their role of heavy ranged infantry well enough. An autocannon Ironstrider is 75 points, has double the wounds, more attacks and toughness, more movement, better shooting ability, a better save, better synergy with our strategms and comparable dmg output. ~5 points difference.
FYI dunecrawler points cost is absolutely fine. Leman russ, Falcon grav tanks and fire prisms are all now within 10-20 points of each other, ours being the cheapest of all of them.
*edited to fix my stat inaccuracies.
I agree as well as disagree.
Kataphrons I think should be about 175pts for three with the heavy grav and phopsher give or take 15 for glamers. Or keep their current price and give them better survivablity. Either 3+ like the breachers (unlikely) or a 6+ feel no pain, or maybe add more wounds. Make the Destroyers/breachers both 5 wounds and keep their current costs. Ruststalkers, are indeed overpriced, fully agree. I can see myself making them work at 15pts per model including wargear, at their current costs they are horrible overcosted and weak in offense and defense with no good means to manuver as well. Servitors are laughably bad. A servitor with a servo arm should cost 8 pts. Bam. There I fixed them.
Just a wish list here: I wish Breachers fired D3 shots on their Torsion cannons and Heavy 3 on the Heavy Arc rifles. If they did that, I would play 12 of them on the field.
I truely am hoping that the Handbook at the end of the year will give us some serious changes or at least some reasonable point deductions. As others have said. Our codex came out too soon and it obvious that it was printed at the same time or right after the indexs. As there is almost no change when its obvious there should be IE look at our powerfist. Still costs 20 pts. What has me the most worried is the ERRATA and FAQ have NOT changed any point values. Which to me, implies they are done with the faction and will not support them any further. I pray I am wrong though.
More than that, not only are they expensive and fragile, they're just not very good at much of anything. Some of those guns are nice, but hitting on a 4+ isn't going to make them stand out. And those powerfists are horrendous at 5+ with no way to improve them outside of stratagems spent on far better units.
Heyyy, so I have a tournament report from SoCal open. It has gossip. Hopefully I won't get banned and this doesn't go viral beyond this thread. I ran the Celestine + Cawl + Robots + Earthshakers list. This is my effort to write up some notes. I placed 23 at 4-2 and got best admech.
For reference, here is my list again:
Spoiler:
Cawl 1x5 Kastelon 2x1 NeutrOnager 1x4 Dragoon
Celestine + Geminae 2x Astropath 1x Commisar
Company Commander CADIA 5+/5+ Master of Ordinance 29 Conscripts 3x1 Earthshaker
Opponent 1: Justin - Inquisition / Scions / AM but no Codex goodness. Justin went first and held his deepstrikers back. He walked towards my robots. My artillery generally killed 1 taurox a turn and my wrath of mars removed his bullgryns. Celestine and the dragoons mopped up his mobile stuff and after he dropped, each robot removed a scion team. His list ... like it just didn't work. I can't see his list doing anything at an ITC competitive event. He didn't take the 5+/5+ WLTrait/Relic and was pretty grumpy that I did. Like ... why didn't he run it? It is obviously OP. Run that shiz. This is ITC. Play fluff at the GW store where no one counts up points.
Opponent 2: Eric - 2x Renegade knights, magnus, lord of skulls. Eric went first, got off the 3++ power on magnus, and pushed up. His shooting wasn't that great, I think he glassed an Onager. My shooting was poor and magnus lived. His return shooting was good, he aced celestine and my dragoons. He failed to get into combat second turn thanks to celestine ressurecting in a good spot. My surviving artillery and robots tabled him on turn 3. It was a rougher game than it should have been but Cawl eventually killed a knight.
Opponent 3: Don - 6x plague crawlers, 2x bloat drones, Mortarian, some characters. He dropped Mortarian first right in the middle of the board. I put the robots down 36" away and I knew he didn't have warp time or a way through my screen turn 1. I luckily got first turn and aced Mortarian and a Crawler. The rest of the game was him inneficetly shelling me and killing celestine and a few dragoons while I killed a crawler a turn. Eventually celestine's second life ran up the board and aced his last character. This was by far the best showing of my list. All the elements came together to demolish what should be a devastating army. He ended up 19th, ahead of me.
Opponent 4: Laurence - Ynnari Yncarne, Yvraine, 2x serpent tanks, 2x wrathguard shooters, a flier, terrible terrible black rocket guys This was an extremely cagey and hard fought game. He got first turn and was able to kill 2 robots with the damn rocket guys. When I got my turn my onager aced his flier and I moved and plopped the robots and rerolled on 6s to kill the rocket guys. The rest of the game was a slow grind with him having just 2 more hold objectives than me. I ground him down to 2 models with both onagers, cawl, 2 artillery, my conscripts, and 1 psyker left. But he won on secondaries with just yncarne and a car left on turn 6 24-21. He was a great opponent, good looking, fit, drank hard, great beard, hot girlfriend who liked to party. My chick hung out with his all morning. It was cool. This was by far the most tactical and we agreed it was the best game of the tournament. It should have been streamed.
Opponent 5: Alex - Tau, Yvara, 2 forgeworld tau tanks, longstrike, 3 commanders, some crisis, some drones. I took way too fething long to deploy and was a slow playing bitch. He had all the tools to just kill me by turn 2. It was vanguard strike on gak terrain. So I painstakingly measured out all of his advance distances for the YVara (it can kill the robots by itself). I knew exactly the line he would need if he got a 6 on the advance and I was just over it. My conscript screen largely held and denied any crisis drops until turn 3. His YVara rolled like gak and got an onager down to 4 wounds. My robots then walked up, plopped, and deleted the YVara. MY Neutrons then picked at his tanks all game until they were gone. Celestine ran up the middle and occupied the 'ground' floor to claim the central objective. Since I could crowd that objective with bodies and be 'non-LOS' due to ITC, he was fethed on points. The game was lost since he never tried to constest the middle. I made mistakes and he wouldn't let me take them back, but by the end he had 1 suit commander left. Earthshakers are rigged, start working on yours. I went hard on this guy. It was intense. Spectators were like, this is isn't chill anymore. Both of us were red and sweating. Laurence was like, why did you not let him concede? But afterwards we were buddies for sure. He was a go hard but fair guy. He asked me on a podcast afterwards and I want to go to his store. He is largely everyone's favorite.
Opponent 6: Adam - much better Ynnari list, 4 serpents, 4 wraithguard, Yncarne, some caster I heard from a source that Adam was a known cheat and was 1 more complaint from getting banned. I watched his dice the whole time. He played loose with movement and wound counters and I really didn't like his face. For some reasons my robots just couldn't wound. All my shooting was gak and this guy rerolled all kinds of failed saves as cocked dice. Coldest of cold shooting the whole time. His army manages to have -1 on everything all the time. It is super lame. He is oddly hard on rules for being so loose with stuff. Since my shooting just didn't work he eventually closed on my lines and I lost. I argued him into me getting 14 points and that got me to rank 23 and best admech. I usually finish tournaments 1-5, so hey, I will take it.
Comments on the list going forwards. My list is dead. The FAQ today killed it. I also think AdMech is dead when the new Eldar codex drops. Everything about the Ynnari wraithguard list will be even more horrendous as an infilitrating, strategeming, -2 to be hit list. Unless something radically changes I don't see myself taking this army to the LVO. What would be the point? If I draw eldar I would just lose period.
Celestine: as much as she did work all the time, in ITC she gives up full points on kingslayer and headhunter (since geminae are characters) every game. She devastates certain opponents, but people who bring truly hard lists will not be phased by celestine's modest damage output. Also, since conscripts are dead, she won't have the insane synergy with her 6++, TAKE COVER, and the +1 to save psychic power.
Dragoons: I kind of expected more damage. They drew fire like crazy, which I guess is good. I was pulling them all the time. But they often lived with 1 dragoon left somewhere. Running them as Mars is easier on the points, but they truly need to be stygies to land a real punch. The other problem is that with all the -1 and -2 to hit in the game, lots of people run 'flamery' weapons that auto hit. The YVara meant my dragoons had to start way back and they eventually got killed down to 1 due to the drop melta. I guess that beats having that on the robots, but their damage just wasn't what you might think. Against a lord of skulls, or plaguecrawlers, or tau, or wraithguard, they die in overwatch. So ... several games they just had to stand there and get shot.
Robots: yeah, they do what you think. Against non-cheaty, non-wraithguard BSS these guys delete what you point at them. Rolling 90 dice volleys is exhausting and I only got through it pounding stimulants. If you run admech, run 5 robots or don't bother in competitive events. Seriously. Every admech guy at socal had 5-6. No one even tried anything else.
Onagers: yeah, excellent. Maybe take another over celestine. Not sure tho, because she does so much work to threaten, contest, and punish softer list opponents. If you bring pathfinders, or drop guys, or human sized infantry, celestine can go find those models and farm them for points. The onagers on the other hand can roll like gak and not even scratch a wave serpent.
Earthshaker batteries: I thought mine were big enough. Some bros let me know I should get bigger stakes. These guys are utter BS. And the FAQ made them -3 now. At this point, I would run 6 if I had the models. They are just BSS through and through. Also, they are great objective holders. Just plop them down and forget about it. And you can shoot at things who melee them. WTF is that? And they don't give Big Game Hunter secondaries? And they aren't 'vehicles'? THe BSS never stops with forgeworld. Run more. Make more. Craft more. Do what you have to do to get more. They are the answer to the robot weaknesses.
Conscripts/Commisar: fuq fuq fuq they are dead. Commisars are nerfed now (kill 1, reroll morale instead of pass). Imperium is now seriously hard up for screens. If I start running Stygies then I need a fat stack of support character taxes and zero-damage units. I already don't have enough points in firepower and too much in support. Rangers might be like ... no, they are a bad screen period. They are just bad at it. And they don't do any damage. I have no idea what to do about screens here. I am half tempted just to yolo it and start running earthshakers as screens. But then I would need proper dimensions on the models and I did not have proper ones even with knight sized bases. I guess we run guardsmen? Guards are dramatically less survivable than conscripts because you can't stack up to that sweet sweet 3+/4++ with celestine on a 30 wound single unit. If you run your dragoons as a screen ... uh ... I guess? But then you can't hold objectives or get into buildings or commit them to killing. Winning with the robots mean hard packing base to base on the robots. Every time I left space I started to lose. Screening the robots means base to base and deep. I don't know how to do this without conscripts.
Astropaths: mandatory. Not optional. Put 2 in right now. The 'psychic maelstrom' power is an almost consistent 3 mortal wounds. It killed magnus game 2. Always take these stupid jerks. Who cares if they give up character kills. No one takes snipers and if they are dying then you are getting tabled. Also, they are an easy 'drop' during deployment since you don't actually care where they go.
Master of Ordinance: this is the most anti-meta weirdness in my list. I put the Relic of Lost Cadia on him 2 times. It got some serious wounding off with the earthshakers and he would only get better with more earthshaker batteries. If I go to LVO, yeah, 6 Earthshakers. Run them as screens. Until then, he is gone. This is just too finicky and gimpy and requries like 10 minutes to explain to my opponent and they still don't believe it.
ALSO
Brandon Grant won. He is something of my 40k idol. He plays the dirtiest, most secretive, most perfectly to the day meta lists of all time. He won with 90 conscripts, 10 primaris psyckers, 25 scions, and 5 tauroxen. Having a few psyckers is good, having 10 means your opponent can never deny you. His list wasn't even good at the ITC secondaries. He had heaps of HeadHunter (characters), Reaper(20+ model units), and BigGameHunter (Taurox). Didn't matter. When you have 10 smites you don't care.
EDIT2:
Watch the new Eldar codex battle report. I skimmed it just to watch some clips. Dark Angels Tabled in 2 turns with Dark Angels going first. Until chapter approved comes out I don't see admech doing as well again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGo3mErmfGc
Great write up, few questions
1.No Creed for extra command points?
2. 2 Neutron Ongars, did you ever feel the need for an icarus cannon array? Now that Eldar hemlocks might be a big thing, would you consider the Icarus more now?
3. Can Neutron Ongars still compete for space in a list with double fire Russes and Basilisks?
4. Are you allowed to just freely choose between Kurov's Aquila or the Cadia Relic at the beginning of any match at ITC? It seemed like you didn't stick to just one relic
Loved the writeup. I feel like you were drunk or on a post-tournament rush when you wrote some of it.
"Earthshaker Batteries: Run more. Make more. Craft more. " I'd be careful with this sort of thing... FW are definitely being much slower on the updates than GW prime, but evidence suggests that these and Malefic Lords and stuff will get hit with the nerf bat. I guess if you are the Brandon Grant type who will win a tourney with a perfect list then be happy to ditch it and start again, then fine.
Wulfey wrote: Heyyy, so I have a tournament report from SoCal open. It has gossip. Hopefully I won't get banned and this doesn't go viral beyond this thread. I ran the Celestine + Cawl + Robots + Earthshakers list. This is my effort to write up some notes. I placed 23 at 4-2 and got best admech.
Good work. Nice write-up...
Now to go sell my effing army.
I was on the fence as it is, because while it was a labor of love building and painting, I can't stand getting steamrolled and honestly, with what I am seeing from Eldar and knowing IG do what we do better, what is the point?
This is an interesting development. Really enjoyed Wulfey's write-up, even the knee-jerk doom and gloom conclusions
The big question is, if conscript screens are so doomed as you say, what is the rest of the imperium going to use for screening? They're no better off than us.
My conclusion to this is essentially that GW doesnt want us screening. At all. The idea that an army would intentionally wrap it's heavy support in garbage to prevent it being charged only fits fluff-wise for very few armies. Most armies of the imperium would charge out to meet them head on. Ironically it fits for us perfectly, admech wouldnt even think twice about throwing cascades of bodies at any objective, we just dont really have the bodies or leadership support to do that. Anyway what i'm getting at is, and what i'm happy about, is the gravitating away from spam buffers. Because what that means is they want us to properly deal with assault units. Counter an assault with another assault, or shoot it before it gets to you. That is a far more epic and exciting scenario for our battles than ramming a bunch of spongey flesh into a wall of metal. Or vice versa.
The annoying thing about that is we only really have dragoons that fulfil that charge role effectively. Our one truly nasty melee unit is hampered by costly and/or inconvenient delivery mechanisms. If we could get priests to where we needed them, we'd be fine to counter assault units attempting to tie up our shooting. Though I guess if we held them back and wait for assault units to get to us and used staff priests and a truly singular purpose of being counter charge against our heavies then we dont really have to worry about their delivery. if only they had some way of moving a decent amount of distance to charge effectively.
Infiltrators might do this job pretty well, bit pricey though.
What we're still boned on is the psychic phase. C'est la vie. If we can handle assault and shooting i'm absolutely fine with not being able to handle psychic armies; If that becomes our main downfall, i'm ok with that. No army should have an answer for everything.
Wulfey wrote: Heyyy, so I have a tournament report from SoCal open. It has gossip. Hopefully I won't get banned and this doesn't go viral beyond this thread. I ran the Celestine + Cawl + Robots + Earthshakers list. This is my effort to write up some notes. I placed 23 at 4-2 and got best admech.
Good work. Nice write-up...
Now to go sell my effing army.
I was on the fence as it is, because while it was a labor of love building and painting, I can't stand getting steamrolled and honestly, with what I am seeing from Eldar and knowing IG do what we do better, what is the point?
what did I miss about Eldar that is so painful to us?
Wulfey wrote: Heyyy, so I have a tournament report from SoCal open. It has gossip. Hopefully I won't get banned and this doesn't go viral beyond this thread. I ran the Celestine + Cawl + Robots + Earthshakers list. This is my effort to write up some notes. I placed 23 at 4-2 and got best admech.
Good work. Nice write-up...
Now to go sell my effing army.
I was on the fence as it is, because while it was a labor of love building and painting, I can't stand getting steamrolled and honestly, with what I am seeing from Eldar and knowing IG do what we do better, what is the point?
what did I miss about Eldar that is so painful to us?
Basically they're decent again now. Fire prisms can fire twice the same as leman russ and banshees can race across the field into combat. They have even better access to -2 to hit and everything they have is now fair. It's the best codex so far imo, in that it actually gave the army what it needed.
I'm pretty sure you can still use conscripts in units of 20 as screens, especially in Guillman lists, bring an inquistor and/or commisar make sure they are within Guillman reroll morale bubble, reroll the morale before the commisar's rule. Of course, the efficiency isn't as amazing as before since suddenly you are susceptible to morale casualties.
gendoikari87 wrote: Jesus Christ just ran the numbers on the vanquisher and demolisher vs neutronagers
Vs t7 3+
Demolisher 22points per wound per turn.
Vanquisher 28 points per wound per turn
Neutronager 39 points per wound per turn
This is with the leman russ tanks kitted out with plasma cannons and a hull lascannon
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also .... leman russ punishers are now better at kastelans job than kastelans and twice as tough
Do me a favour and run those numbers at absolute minimum dmg and maximum damage. People seem to ignore the fact that every unsaved wound from a neutron laser is 3 wounds min, all the others have a much greater variance.
Leman russ are also much easier to kill, despite their t8, which also means nothing to our neutron laser or even a regular lascannon. A russ also gets no save vs a neutron laser.
Seriously one of my neutron laser shots meant a leman russ couldn't even shoot me outside 12". Sure their potential damage is greater but they are rendered harmless or destroyed just as easy.
gendoikari87 wrote: Jesus Christ just ran the numbers on the vanquisher and demolisher vs neutronagers
Vs t7 3+
Demolisher 22points per wound per turn.
Vanquisher 28 points per wound per turn
Neutronager 39 points per wound per turn
This is with the leman russ tanks kitted out with plasma cannons and a hull lascannon
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also .... leman russ punishers are now better at kastelans job than kastelans and twice as tough
Do me a favour and run those numbers at absolute minimum dmg and maximum damage. People seem to ignore the fact that every unsaved wound from a neutron laser is 3 wounds min, all the others have a much greater variance.
Leman russ are also much easier to kill, despite their t8, which also means nothing to our neutron laser or even a regular lascannon. A russ also gets no save vs a neutron laser.
Seriously one of my neutron laser shots meant a leman russ couldn't even shoot me outside 12". Sure their potential damage is greater but they are rendered harmless or destroyed just as easy.
that was done with the assumption that neutronagers do minimum damage of 3
Automatically Appended Next Post: I get what you're saying about deviation. But what you have to realize is the russ has LESS deviation not more assuming bs of perfect and minimum shots the neutronager gets 3 wounds the demolisher 7 it's just has more shots to throw more wounds higher toughness and on average it's 2 times more efficient... and the plasmacutioner is an absolute beast
Automatically Appended Next Post: The real kicker is statistically speaking the more dice you are throwing the less deviation you'll have so not only is something like a plasmacutioner 2 times more efficient as anti tank, it is more reliable not less. It also has far greater anti meq abuility. This is all before orders mind you.
The only saving grace might be the proliferation of -1 to whit which impacts guard more than us.
Wulfey wrote: [...]
Celestine: as much as she did work all the time, in ITC she gives up full points on kingslayer and headhunter (since geminae are characters) every game. She devastates certain opponents, but people who bring truly hard lists will not be phased by celestine's modest damage output. Also, since conscripts are dead, she won't have the insane synergy with her 6++, TAKE COVER, and the +1 to save psychic power.
[...]
Celestine needs seraphims as her bodyguard. They are almost mandatory combo to run. No one of them really shines without the other.
takonite wrote: Great write up, few questions 1.No Creed for extra command points? 2. 2 Neutron Ongars, did you ever feel the need for an icarus cannon array? Now that Eldar hemlocks might be a big thing, would you consider the Icarus more now? 3. Can Neutron Ongars still compete for space in a list with double fire Russes and Basilisks? 4. Are you allowed to just freely choose between Kurov's Aquila or the Cadia Relic at the beginning of any match at ITC? It seemed like you didn't stick to just one relic
Not enough points for creed. The +2 to hit strategem makes the icarus dead. If you use the +2 to hit then the neutron is practically guaranteed to ace a flier that has no invul save. Neutrons are the only admech response to heavy armor. Russes and basilisks are just better now tho. I wasn't choosing. I always took Kurov's, but sometimes spent the extra CP for the extra relic. Since it is strategem not part of my list.
EDIT: to above, yes, that is why I brought 1 geminae. The second is not worth it at all. But having that geminae allower her to complete charges when she died on overwatch (since geminae still alive) and I also got celestine back up with 3 wounds one game for a third life. But she still got eaten eventually by the yncarne.
thinking a lot about screens in a post-conscript world. I think GW does still want us to screening as a strategy, but they want everything to have a counter. Anything being both cheap AND so immune to morale was a design flaw they've fixed.
Like Dragoons, I think there are some creative options. My ATC army used Deathwing Knights to screen when needed; and when not needed they deep struck forward. They're tough against everything but mortal wounds of course.
So what is an AdMech player looking for in a screening unit?
* First, something that can prevent melee units from reaching the robots. That means enough investment to at least slow down Tyranids.
* But second, they should have some value in games that don't require much screening.
* Don't require too much detachment tax to include with AdMech. Troops have an advantage here.
Is anyone experimenting with Space Marine Scout spam? They have great deployment utility, Troops slot, resilient morale, and ability to score objectives while not screening.
axisofentropy wrote: thinking a lot about screens in a post-conscript world. I think GW does still want us to screening as a strategy, but they want everything to have a counter. Anything being both cheap AND so immune to morale was a design flaw they've fixed.
Like Dragoons, I think there are some creative options. My ATC army used Deathwing Knights to screen when needed; and when not needed they deep struck forward. They're tough against everything but mortal wounds of course.
So what is an AdMech player looking for in a screening unit?
* First, something that can prevent melee units from reaching the robots. That means enough investment to at least slow down Tyranids.
* But second, they should have some value in games that don't require much screening.
* Don't require too much detachment tax to include with AdMech. Troops have an advantage here.
Is anyone experimenting with Space Marine Scout spam? They have great deployment utility, Troops slot, resilient morale, and ability to score objectives while not screening.
How about the old reliable Dragoon? Squads of two or three Stygies flavor?
Honestly with the new guard codex and eldar I think the dragoon is going to start showing it's weakness. It's never getting a charge off on eldar it's not going to do enough damage to counter guard. And most importantly even with guards conscripts crippled they now vastly outshoot us and can spam high volume firepower. So you might can tie down one russ before the guard player laughs falls back and annihilates the dragoons.
That's the crux of the issue there. Meta is becoming more shooty and we just got way outclassed in shooting.
Goondozer might prove useful in that it's countering the shooty meta but cp intensive.
If you want to get 100% real for a second, if you play competitive..... avoid admech at this point. The advantages we had just got blown out of the water by guard. Admech has been relegated to fun lists only.
gendoikari87 wrote: Honestly with the new guard codex and eldar I think the dragoon is going to start showing it's weakness. It's never getting a charge off on eldar it's not going to do enough damage to counter guard. And most importantly even with guards conscripts crippled they now vastly outshoot us and can spam high volume firepower. So you might can tie down one russ before the guard player laughs falls back and annihilates the dragoons.
That's the crux of the issue there. Meta is becoming more shooty and we just got way outclassed in shooting.
Goondozer might prove useful in that it's countering the shooty meta but cp intensive.
If you want to get 100% real for a second, if you play competitive..... avoid admech at this point. The advantages we had just got blown out of the water by guard. Admech has been relegated to fun lists only.
Our Dragoons are still -2 to-hit with shooting. Can't forget that. And it isn't about getting a charge off - we are talking screens, remember? It is about eating charges. They do this well.
Goondozer is not the point either - that is a solid option when we have a chaff screen. Without it? I am tempted to just go back to stringing out Dragoons for a screen. It worked before with just the -1 to-hit. Why not now?
And 100% for real - we all know we aren't top tier. That doesn't mean we can't try to do what we can with what we got. So reiterating that point ad nauseum won't get us anywhere.
Plus, let us not forget Chapter Approved. Not that I am holding my breath, but we might get a point adjustment in that. Hopefully. We need a lot of point reductions across the board - units and weapons. If we don't get that, I am not sure Fires will save us either, though at least we would get some new toys.
@Wulfey
I told you to run 2 Icarus Crawlers. They do better than Neutron against Magnus, Mortarion, and Celestine, plus they massacre Tau and Eldar bikes, jetpacks, skimmers/hovers, etc. =P
Glad to see you did well though. I need to play games, but I have been too busy at work.
Also, what are the dimensions of Earthshaker Battteries supposed to be anyway?
Suzuteo wrote: @Wulfey
I told you to run 2 Icarus Crawlers. They do better than Neutron against Magnus, Mortarion, and Celestine, plus they massacre Tau and Eldar bikes, jetpacks, skimmers/hovers, etc. =P
Glad to see you did well though. I need to play games, but I have been too busy at work.
Also, what are the dimensions of Earthshaker Battteries supposed to be anyway?
Our Dragoons are still -2 to-hit with shooting. Can't forget that. And it isn't about getting a charge off - we are talking screens, remember? It is about eating charges. They do this well.
.
and it's a wholly irrelevant thing to do when the top armies sit back and shoot you.
Our Dragoons are still -2 to-hit with shooting. Can't forget that. And it isn't about getting a charge off - we are talking screens, remember? It is about eating charges. They do this well.
.
and it's a wholly irrelevant thing to do when the top armies sit back and shoot you.
In that sense, Stygies also provides flexibility. If it's a sit and shoot army, you ambush your Dragoons to get them in their face quicker. If it's alpha strike, you screen and enjoy the -2 to hit.
Plasma Pask: 257 points
- Executioner Turret
- Plasma Cannon Sponsons
- Lascannon Hull Weapon
- Pintle Heavy Stubber
- Hunter-Killer Missile
Vengeance for Cadia Stratagem, rerolling all failed hit/wound rolls
Overcharging all Plasma weapons for +1 S and +1 D
Not moving, double-firing plasma turret and firing at regular BS Pask's ability to reroll variable attacks factored in
Dakkabot: 110 points
- Triple Heavy Phosphor
Cawl nearby for reroll failed hit rolls
Wrath of Mars stratagem for MW on 6s
Point-Cost Durability represents the effectiveness ratio of the point cost of the shooting to Magnus' cost.
The dakkabot, as you can see, has a 176 ratio which means that you need to pour 176% of Magnus' cost in dakkabots to be able to take him out.
Hey guys, remember to send GW messages about Admech being over costed and we need our powerfists and tech preiats reduced to fit in line with the other codexs. Go to Warhammer community and let them know that are servitors dominus and so forth are all over costed as they do read that stuff. But remember be polite!!
Tsol wrote: Hey guys, remember to send GW messages about Admech being over costed and we need our powerfists and tech preiats reduced to fit in line with the other codexs. Go to Warhammer community and let them know that are servitors dominus and so forth are all over costed as they do read that stuff. But remember be polite!!
Icarus damage profile is redundant with the robots. I don't need more Str6/7 firepower. The Neutron provides str10 -4, something I can't get anywhere else. High invul save models like magnus are only countered by mortal wounds anyways, which is the job of the robots. Even if the icarus is marginally more effective point for point on magnus ... who cares. I mathed it out. They do like 2.5 expected wounds at best. Only wrath of mars dakkabots threaten primarchs.
gendoikari87 wrote: Jesus Christ just ran the numbers on the vanquisher and demolisher vs neutronagers
Vs t7 3+
Demolisher 22points per wound per turn.
Vanquisher 28 points per wound per turn
Neutronager 39 points per wound per turn
This is with the leman russ tanks kitted out with plasma cannons and a hull lascannon
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also .... leman russ punishers are now better at kastelans job than kastelans and twice as tough
Nobody runs the tanks with Plasma Cannon sponsons really; Vostroyans are the only viable option for Plasma + Plasma sponsons (and even then, moving is risky). Tallarn runs them with Heavy Bolters because they don't like exploding. Everyone else runs Catachan or Cadian with barebones main turrets.
Anyhow, here are some points per damage against T3 W1 5+/T4 W1 3+/T4 W2 2+ 5++/T7 3+/T7 3+ 4++/T8 3+/T8 3+ 4++ profiles:
Catachan Battle Cannon + Heavy Bolter (reroll volume)
37.03/56.62/41.81/40.22/52.55/52.55/68.21
Tallarn Punisher + 3x Heavy Bolter (no penalty for moving)
15.45/29.61/54.64/59.22/59.22/59.22/59.22
Cadian Executioner Plasma + 2x Plasma + 1x Heavy Bolter (this is just for fun; it's too risky even with rerolls)
23.38/29.32/19.65/19.91/32.34/26.21/42.22
Vostroyan Executioner Plasma + 2x Plasma + 1x Heavy Bolter (42" range, 1CP to avoid overheating)
35.08/43.99/29.48/29.87/48.51/39.31/63.33
Crawlers (all get Martian reroll):
Martian Neutron + 2x Heavy Stubber
37.65/61.21/79.85/25.76/46.61/27.19/51.51
Martian Icarus + Heavy Stubber
vs. Ground: 19.24/38.27/57.87/36.26/43.87/49.82/61.06
vs. Air: 15.43/30.41/35.74/28.49/34.61/38.92/47.86
Take-aways:
-Barebones Battle Cannon is the best option for killing transports and a strong all-rounder
-Plasma is scary strong, but also risky
-Neutron is very specialized against tanks, but is beat against T7 and below
-Icarus is the better all-rounder and is especially good against air (especially Magnus and the like)
-Heavy Stubber is undercosted now and outperforms Heavy Bolters against everything but T8+
-Dakkastelans are still better than all of the Punisher variants
I know conscripts aren't really the new fad since the new FAQ but I did some math to see overall what's better vs Light Infantry, Dakka Pask or Dakka Bots (using the conscript durability and cost as a baseline)
Dakka Pask
- Punisher cannon, fired twice for not moving
- Rerolling hit rolls of 1
- 3 Heavy Bolters
- Heavy Stubber
Dakka bot
- Triple Heavy Phosphor, at normal BS for not moving
- Double Shoot Stance
- Cawl nearby for reroll hits
Results:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
takonite wrote: where is the best place to send questions to find out how Litany of the Electromancer really works, was this ever solved?
Nope, they dumped a gakky errata on us that answered a question no one was asking and didn't update anything they wrote. Pray to the Machine God we get answers in Chapter Approved, or we may never get any answers.
takonite wrote: where is the best place to send questions to find out how Litany of the Electromancer really works, was this ever solved?
It seems clear to me. At the start of a round, pick every unit affected by this Canticle. Pick every enemy unit within 1" of those picked units. Roll a D6 for each of them. On a 6, deal D3 mortal wounds.
I don't think it's the timing as much as it's the fact that it deals practically no damage.
I would have gone for:
For each affected unit, roll a D6 for each enemy unit that is within 1"; on a roll of 6, the unit being rolled for suffers D3 mortal wounds.
The difference being that every unit procs once for every nearby enemy unit. So if three units are locked in CC with Magnus, you roll 3 times for him instead of only once.
Wulfey wrote: Reece ruled that Litany takes place at the top of the battle round in ITC. So RIP Litany. It was horrendous anyways.
Too bad, I'd still like to see an official ruling as the codex still states "At the start of each battle round, pick which Canticle of the Omnissiah from the table below is in effect for the duration of the battle round. The same Canticle may not be picked twice during the same battle."
This strangely makes Litany the only one of the six Canticles that does not have an ongoing effect
Litany would have been far better off as a strategem
LexOdin9 wrote: I know conscripts aren't really the new fad since the new FAQ but I did some math to see overall what's better vs Light Infantry, Dakka Pask or Dakka Bots (using the conscript durability and cost as a baseline)
Dakka Pask
- Punisher cannon, fired twice for not moving
- Rerolling hit rolls of 1
- 3 Heavy Bolters
- Heavy Stubber
Dakka bot
- Triple Heavy Phosphor, at normal BS for not moving
- Double Shoot Stance
- Cawl nearby for reroll hits
Results:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
takonite wrote: where is the best place to send questions to find out how Litany of the Electromancer really works, was this ever solved?
Nope, they dumped a gakky errata on us that answered a question no one was asking and didn't update anything they wrote. Pray to the Machine God we get answers in Chapter Approved, or we may never get any answers.
I am sorry but a comparison between a character of which you can only ever take one and a unit that is required to take at least 2 models is just...well it shows that mathhammer isnt always the answer.
Tsol wrote: Hey guys, remember to send GW messages about Admech being over costed and we need our powerfists and tech preiats reduced to fit in line with the other codexs. Go to Warhammer community and let them know that are servitors dominus and so forth are all over costed as they do read that stuff. But remember be polite!!
How do I go about doing that?
For all those curious: load up facebook and goto warhammer 40000 group/page here is a link for those too lazy to type it in the search bar https://www.facebook.com/Warhammer-40000-1575682476085719/ and post on their wall about your grievances. Though I must must must plea and beg, to please be polite, their community is not in charge of the rules writing but they do talk to them!
LexOdin9 wrote: I know conscripts aren't really the new fad since the new FAQ but I did some math to see overall what's better vs Light Infantry, Dakka Pask or Dakka Bots (using the conscript durability and cost as a baseline)
Dakka Pask
- Punisher cannon, fired twice for not moving
- Rerolling hit rolls of 1
- 3 Heavy Bolters
- Heavy Stubber
Dakka bot
- Triple Heavy Phosphor, at normal BS for not moving
- Double Shoot Stance
- Cawl nearby for reroll hits
Results:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
takonite wrote: where is the best place to send questions to find out how Litany of the Electromancer really works, was this ever solved?
Nope, they dumped a gakky errata on us that answered a question no one was asking and didn't update anything they wrote. Pray to the Machine God we get answers in Chapter Approved, or we may never get any answers.
I am sorry but a comparison between a character of which you can only ever take one and a unit that is required to take at least 2 models is just...well it shows that mathhammer isnt always the answer.
Math is the answer to everything! To say otherwise is to refuse the glory of the Omnissiah!
Joking aside, I could easily do a comparison dakkabot to catachan tank commander or cadian tank commander. I feel too lazy right now.
Personnally I use the Electromancer canticle like this: get the canticle, now every time an Adeptus Mechanicus units gets within 1" of an enemy unit, this unit suffers the effect on a 6. The thing is I believe you can use it all round, so when you get charged during his turn, you have a chance to shock them. When you get piled-in by enemy models, you get to shock them. Same thing when it's my turn, let's say I charge with my Vanguards, I roll it once, then I pile-in into a different unit after wiping out the precedent, I roll it a second time. The thing to remember being that a single enemy unit can't be affected by the shock more than once.
I'm playing it like this at my store and noone finds this unreasonable. It's still a very low probability to do actual wounds but at least the threat is constant, and sometimes you get surprising results like my Fulgurites finishing off Typhus in CC.
Litany once when your turn starts . It's bad must be fixed and yes it should be at least an electro power whenever an enemy comes to 1" of us to get a roll. It should but gw has long forgotten ad mech
. Since all those shouts I was giving on official sites was stopped from all those players you admire and love the pros that spammed reviews praising the great value this codex gave it's pointless. No faq proper for this crap codex nothing new nothing revamped. Still your favorite players praised it since they got it for free! Etc etc won't say it again.
I m used to in my life to demand value. I don't accept trash sorry. I only play ad mech with units I have and leaked codex. Won't give money for no value I play better other armies . Ig is fun from list building to competitive play. Even if fires of c released ad mech won't be an army still. When they decide to make this a proper army I'll talk more. Saying same crap all the time won't change the trash codex. Can't build lists don't have hq no melee units no variations no even a second aura . Ig enginseers cost 42 pathetic. If you played two games with new codex you have seen how bad ad mech perform.
Simply put even if you spamming 2*6 Robots you need ig screen warlord trait and relic. Cause you can't even make proper lists with solo ad mech. Only tax tax tax everything is tax can't work heal each other and dogmas don't give that much either way. My pre codex list was better . No mortals from wrath but was better. No unplayable
Kastelans are still better than Punisher LRs and TCs. Even if they are more important in terms of points, 50% more range and the ability to dump mortal wounds are important considerations.
Suzuteo wrote: Kastelans are still better than Punisher LRs and TCs. Even if they are more important in terms of points, 50% more range and the ability to dump mortal wounds are important considerations.
that's a half decent point but punisher LR's just put out so much dakka and they're 12 wounds on a T8 model.
Here is a comparison of points per wound against T3 W1 5+/T4 W1 3+/T4 W2 2+ 5++/T7 3+/T7 3+ 4++/T8 3+/T8 3+ 4++ (or GEQ/MEQ/TEQ/Razorback/Magnus/Baneblade/Imperial Knight)
Tallarn Punisher + 3x Heavy Bolter
15.45/29.61/54.64/59.22/59.22/59.22/59.22
Cadian Punisher + Heavy Bolter
10.97/11.36/41.74/43.15/43.15/43.15/43.15
Dakkastelans with Protector and Cawl reroll
8.25/15.4727.50/30.93/41.24/30.93/41.24
As you can see, even with Cadian rerolls, Kastelans do better. Most people are going to run these guys Tallarn if they don't have character support though. Lots of dakka on that build, and it's mobile enough to get in range.
why on gods green earth are you only putting one HB on the cadian punisher. also i ran these numbers yesterday and i think you're off. the punisher + 3 HB's should be doing way more damage against infantry.
are you only shooting the punisher once or twice?
oh that's why they were different you ran GEQ i ran them against Guard and orks.
Nobody runs the tanks with Plasma Cannon sponsons really;
I do.
IMO you'd be a fool not to until the faq puts emergency plasma vents back up to 6 mortal wounds. currently it's 1. and cadians re roll 1s..... plasma in 8th is a thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I should note that's for anti tank roles not ant infantry. Anti infantry still take the hb
Automatically Appended Next Post: Without factoring rerolls or strategem a (because those have their own costs)
GEQ/meq/teq/t73+/t83+
Punisher with 3x hb
14.6/27.9/51.55/55.88/55.88
Plasmacutioner with lascannon and pc sponsons
38.6/46/28.3/27.2/34.2
Battle cannon with plasma sponsons and lascannon
35.9/49/31.1/28.8/36.7
Neutronager
126/126/75/40/40
Kastelans
14.7/27.5/36.6/55/55
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heat maps show per point:
GEQ: punisher and kastelans tied
MEQ: punisher and kastelans tied for first
TEQ: plasmacutioner a clear winner with battle cannon second
T7 with 3+: plasmacutioner with battle cannon a close second
T8 with 3+: plasmacutioner with battle cannon a close second
Again this is all with only the units on their own merits not factoring abilities from other units
Automatically Appended Next Post: So the kastelans weren't as bad as originally assessed but those neutronagers are showing signs of aging. Need to run this on land raiders. Neutronager probably shines there
What are these numbers again? points per wound? So many unquantified numbers it's getting confusing understanding what we're actually measuring lol
All i see in my mind comparing these is:
Both the plasma and battle cannon variants of the russ you list are 190 and 192 points each. Neutronager with 2 heavy stubbers is 145. If those russ didn't out perform it at something they would be severely gimped.
Imagine what we could do with 2d3 neutron shots lol I mean for every 3 russ and neutronagers we get an entire neutronager for free. How do 4 neutronagers compare to 3 of the russes? You almost have to reduce the comparative effectiveness of the russ by 1/3 to account for the extra points you're spending.
Presume kastellans in this example is for 2 of the robots btw? I dont recall anyone specifically saying, especially considering 2 robots is almost comparable to a single one of those russ variants points-wise.
---
Also if someone could just clarify the GEQ, MEQ and TEQ terms for me? I mean my assumption has been that GEQ is essentially a guardsman/eldar guardian/ork, MEQ is a standard marine and TEQ is heavy infantry like terminators and wraithguard but the terms have never made any sense when i've tried to figure out what they stand for lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also i just realised in looking at those points costs the eradication beamer and twin heavy phosphor are even worse options if you compare points. 30 points each!? all those russ options are all 20 or less bar one. scandalous lol
My guard friend would be parroting, ah but those weapons are mounted on a bs3+ tank instead of a bs4+ tank. To me, doesn't make the gun any better! lol
What are these comparisons trying to show if points cost per model arent factored in? Or survivability? Buff units (no one plays dakkastelans without cawl)? This is fun and all but shows very little because the comparison is within a vacuum and would very seldom take effect in a game like this.
gendoikari87 wrote: why on gods green earth are you only putting one HB on the cadian punisher. also i ran these numbers yesterday and i think you're off. the punisher + 3 HB's should be doing way more damage against infantry.
are you only shooting the punisher once or twice?
oh that's why they were different you ran GEQ i ran them against Guard and orks.
Honestly, I only showed the Cadian Punisher as a reference for rerolls. You normally would not run it because Punishers have 24" range, and Cadians are rewarded for not moving.
Cadian Punisher + 3x Heavy Bolter
10.30/11.29/36.42/39.48/39.48/39.48/39.48
Iago40k wrote: well I got the math after reading everything twice.....nvm
I dont see way Dakkastelans are compared to punisher cannons at all...why do you guys think LRs are so great? I just cant see it
I think the barebones Battle Cannon builds are great. (Good all-around damage, range, and durability.) Plasma is also great if you can tolerate the risk; you should always supercharge except against GEQs.
Then again, this was before they FAQed the Earthshakers to be -3 AP. Now those are seriously OP.
Nobody runs the tanks with Plasma Cannon sponsons really;
I do.
IMO you'd be a fool not to until the faq puts emergency plasma vents back up to 6 mortal wounds. currently it's 1. and cadians re roll 1s..... plasma in 8th is a thing.
Again, I only put Cadians up to test reroll ones. If you were to run a non-Vostroyan Plasma Exec, you would run Catachan. And if you were to do that, Flamers might be a better option for the sponsons.
The problem is that tanks have BS4+, and when they move, they get -1 to hit. Cadians only get to reroll ones, but only when you don't move, so you will have a mobility problem. It might work on Tallarn, but then you'd want Heavy Bolters. Honestly, best choice is Catachans with reroll orders/aura; this way you take the damage, but at least get to reroll shot volume.
If you move and shoot without a reroll, it's 33% chance to hit, 33% to miss, and 33% to get hot. That's 3.67 mortal wounds a turn. Like getting hit by a Twin Lascannon. With rerolling 1s, you get 38.89% chance to hit, 38.89% to miss, 22.22% chance to get hot.
gendoikari87 wrote: Your assuming a lot of moving. Plasma has a 36" range same as kastelans and no body is crying over them gluing themselves to the board
This is a good assumption at a tournament. Tactics don't matter in a match where all your enemies models are in range and in clear line of sight. The games where you have ot struggle for LOS are the games that count.
EDIT: on all this talk about leman russes. I am not convinced they are better than onagers. Guard has some access to rerolls to hit, but not that many. And Russ's don't have invul saves so they will draw -4 fire like crazy. Assuming 4s rerolling 1s you are looking at 58% chance to hit against a -0 target, and like 38% chance to hit a target with -1 to hit. That is some sad stuff. Assuming they shoot twice they only barely manage to keep up with an onager. And the Onager is a lot more mobile and has better repair options and invul saves. The only Russ that really does damage in its points range is the Plasma one on overcharge. It competes with the damage output of a comparably pointed Hellblaster squad in rapid fire range or the much cheaper plasmacide squad in deep strike rapid fire range. But again, 3+ with no invul sucks. And the damage profile on these things are super hard to mitigate without admech + to hit and ignore table strategems. I would take a 6 stack of onagers and Cawl over a 5 stack of leman russes + Pask any day of the week. If you deployed right then the russes wouldn't be able to all shoot without losing their double shoot.
Even further, they still haven't fixed the 'reroll ANY' language on Cawl. That makes neutronagers accurate against -1 to be hit models in a way that no other list can be accurate. Not seeing all the leman russ love.
Also, I was at socal open. The leman russ spam lists got peed on. People just shot them from afar or tied them up in combat. If you want to run tanks, run a baneblade. EDIT2: even then, a baneblade with a few lascannons is like 500 points. That is as much as a knight. It shoots better than the knight and with a strategem it can fight kinda okay, but it has no invul save. So every lascannon shot at your baneblade will only be saved in a 6+.
EDIT3: I think there is a dark horse unit combo in the admech codex. Now that I have 4 dragoon models, I am thinking about the possibilities of a Stygies 4 lascannon ballistari unit. Hear me out. The +2 to hit strategem is seriously good on a big units of walkers. +2 to hit on 8 lascannons is no joke and ballistari are 50 point platforms for lascannons, and points spent on lascannons (45) are never wasted. This unit will draw mad fire from your opponent, but it has the bonus that it can move and shoot when you use the strategem. It won't provide the mortal wound generation of the wrath of mars robots, but man will it remove pesky transports with ease. I wanted my dragoons to do serious work, but the proliferation of mega tau overwatch, autohitting super flamers from plagecrawls, lord of skulls godtier overwatch, and ynnari double-move charges made them semi-useless in 5 of 6 games. Sure, they absorbed fire, but ballistari could absorb comparable fire at reduced point efficiency. On top of this the 4 stack of ballistari could full BS overwatch with a strategm, which is hilarious. Talk about a lame screen to charge.
EDIT4: I think I found my next tournament list. And I can conveniently make it out of the models I already have with a little conversion.
EDIT3: I think there is a dark horse unit combo in the admech codex. Now that I have 4 dragoon models, I am thinking about the possibilities of a Stygies 4 lascannon ballistari unit. Hear me out. The +2 to hit strategem is seriously good on a big units of walkers. +2 to hit on 8 lascannons is no joke and ballistari are 50 point platforms for lascannons, and points spent on lascannons (45) are never wasted. This unit will draw mad fire from your opponent, but it has the bonus that it can move and shoot when you use the strategem. It won't provide the mortal wound generation of the wrath of mars robots, but man will it remove pesky transports with ease. I wanted my dragoons to do serious work, but the proliferation of mega tau overwatch, autohitting super flamers from plagecrawls, lord of skulls godtier overwatch, and ynnari double-move charges made them semi-useless in 5 of 6 games. Sure, they absorbed fire, but ballistari could absorb comparable fire at reduced point efficiency. On top of this the 4 stack of ballistari could full BS overwatch with a strategm, which is hilarious. Talk about a lame screen to charge.
Nope, not gonna be the first to try it. but i see your logic here and commend you for thinking out side the box. will be interested in how it works.
seriously what would have been wrong with giving the Ballistarii -1 to hit as well... i mean sure with stygies that's 75-95 point models running around with high movement and -2 to hit. but that wouldn't have been broken... not when the rest of the dex was shat on.
gendoikari87 wrote: Your assuming a lot of moving. Plasma has a 36" range same as kastelans and no body is crying over them gluing themselves to the board
This is a good assumption at a tournament. Tactics don't matter in a match where all your enemies models are in range and in clear line of sight. The games where you have ot struggle for LOS are the games that count.
EDIT: on all this talk about leman russes. I am not convinced they are better than onagers. Guard has some access to rerolls to hit, but not that many. And Russ's don't have invul saves so they will draw -4 fire like crazy. Assuming 4s rerolling 1s you are looking at 58% chance to hit against a -0 target, and like 38% chance to hit a target with -1 to hit. That is some sad stuff. Assuming they shoot twice they only barely manage to keep up with an onager. And the Onager is a lot more mobile and has better repair options and invul saves. The only Russ that really does damage in its points range is the Plasma one on overcharge. It competes with the damage output of a comparably pointed Hellblaster squad in rapid fire range or the much cheaper plasmacide squad in deep strike rapid fire range. But again, 3+ with no invul sucks. And the damage profile on these things are super hard to mitigate without admech + to hit and ignore table strategems. I would take a 6 stack of onagers and Cawl over a 5 stack of leman russes + Pask any day of the week. If you deployed right then the russes wouldn't be able to all shoot without losing their double shoot.
Even further, they still haven't fixed the 'reroll ANY' language on Cawl. That makes neutronagers accurate against -1 to be hit models in a way that no other list can be accurate. Not seeing all the leman russ love.
Also, I was at socal open. The leman russ spam lists got peed on. People just shot them from afar or tied them up in combat. If you want to run tanks, run a baneblade.
EDIT2: even then, a baneblade with a few lascannons is like 500 points. That is as much as a knight. It shoots better than the knight and with a strategem it can fight kinda okay, but it has no invul save. So every lascannon shot at your baneblade will only be saved in a 6+.
EDIT3: I think there is a dark horse unit combo in the admech codex. Now that I have 4 dragoon models, I am thinking about the possibilities of a Stygies 4 lascannon ballistari unit. Hear me out. The +2 to hit strategem is seriously good on a big units of walkers. +2 to hit on 8 lascannons is no joke and ballistari are 50 point platforms for lascannons, and points spent on lascannons (45) are never wasted. This unit will draw mad fire from your opponent, but it has the bonus that it can move and shoot when you use the strategem. It won't provide the mortal wound generation of the wrath of mars robots, but man will it remove pesky transports with ease. I wanted my dragoons to do serious work, but the proliferation of mega tau overwatch, autohitting super flamers from plagecrawls, lord of skulls godtier overwatch, and ynnari double-move charges made them semi-useless in 5 of 6 games. Sure, they absorbed fire, but ballistari could absorb comparable fire at reduced point efficiency. On top of this the 4 stack of ballistari could full BS overwatch with a strategm, which is hilarious. Talk about a lame screen to charge.
EDIT4: I think I found my next tournament list. And I can conveniently make it out of the models I already have with a little conversion.
Well that's the list I v been using but I found some variations to work better.
1) I changed my list to get Celestine. But since I don't have the model and was using a friend's I decided to remove her
2) since not all tourneys play with earthshakers I usually field one more neutronager and a basilisk
3)A stygies outrider will help you extremely! Haven't decided yet but I lean towards -2 to hit 1*4 dragoons and only 2*1 balistarii with -1 for screen.
Why ? For the same reason I don't have priests in stygies. Limited stratagems. Maelstrom missions can't be won with no Celestine no dragoons no deep strike nothing. Some lists I even used ratlings and I won cards. Dragoons to March for obj need -2 else bb.
Overall the idea behind the list is to make my enemy drown in options to shoot. When 4 dragoons close in your ranks you must dedicate firepower. My enemy had 12 lascannons shots and passes 10 damage and my 3* neutron+ basilisk passed 30. And it's not the first time my neutron surpass plasma guard marine lasc etc!
So what I believe to be the proper approach . Or simply put how I did perform better!
Cadian battalion simple things 1 basilisk or 2 earthshakers + all your goodies.
Mars classik but 4 Robots seem enough if you got the stygies outrider to screen properly.
Stygia outrider for options. Dragoons can be anti mass and antitank. Lascannons won't be. I did the job with +2 hit on neutronager and +2 on dragoons.
Infantry units with mortars don't play nice since you move them. For a 12 point difference you can take a heavy team with mortars!!
I m still testing and I know what you doing here but mobility drops to zero with Robots and guard all dakka. The outrider gives options with just a slight dakka drop and an impressive -1 hit on ironstriders. The tech priest can repair Astra militarum vehicles. So even if you go second you can still survive most of your units. Robots still aegis balistarii -1 dragoons -2 onagers 5+ reroll ones. Almost same dakka better options and survivability!!
This is talk I'm trying to make since I found when I lost Celestine I could not move. Troops with mortar or snipers can't move so some form of options must be taken!!
I’m currently building 5 ironstriders, intending 3 to be dragoons and 2 to be balistarii. The +2 to hit. On 4 lascannon shots isn’t to be sniffed at. I’d consider autocannon too for sure, they also have the advantage of being much much cheaper and 8 * str 7 -1 2dmg shots on 2 decently survivable units seems like a bargain. At least as effective as dragoons but at 48” range
4 balistarii with autocannon is also a comparable cost to dragoons, shame they can’t move and fire with no penalty though.
I can see me always running at least 6 ironstriders.
gendoikari87 wrote: Your assuming a lot of moving. Plasma has a 36" range same as kastelans and no body is crying over them gluing themselves to the board
Uh... yes? You move your tanks more often than not, I hope? One of the big deals about Crawlers was actually that they have BS3+ and no hit penalty for moving.
Wulfey wrote: on all this talk about leman russes. I am not convinced they are better than onagers. Guard has some access to rerolls to hit, but not that many. And Russ's don't have invul saves so they will draw -4 fire like crazy. Assuming 4s rerolling 1s you are looking at 58% chance to hit against a -0 target, and like 38% chance to hit a target with -1 to hit. That is some sad stuff. Assuming they shoot twice they only barely manage to keep up with an onager. And the Onager is a lot more mobile and has better repair options and invul saves. The only Russ that really does damage in its points range is the Plasma one on overcharge. It competes with the damage output of a comparably pointed Hellblaster squad in rapid fire range or the much cheaper plasmacide squad in deep strike rapid fire range. But again, 3+ with no invul sucks. And the damage profile on these things are super hard to mitigate without admech + to hit and ignore table strategems. I would take a 6 stack of onagers and Cawl over a 5 stack of leman russes + Pask any day of the week. If you deployed right then the russes wouldn't be able to all shoot without losing their double shoot.
Even further, they still haven't fixed the 'reroll ANY' language on Cawl. That makes neutronagers accurate against -1 to be hit models in a way that no other list can be accurate. Not seeing all the leman russ love.
Also, I was at socal open. The leman russ spam lists got peed on. People just shot them from afar or tied them up in combat. If you want to run tanks, run a baneblade.
EDIT2: even then, a baneblade with a few lascannons is like 500 points. That is as much as a knight. It shoots better than the knight and with a strategem it can fight kinda okay, but it has no invul save. So every lascannon shot at your baneblade will only be saved in a 6+.
I don't think 100% LR lists are viable. It's like running 100% Kastelan lists.
EDIT3: I think there is a dark horse unit combo in the admech codex. Now that I have 4 dragoon models, I am thinking about the possibilities of a Stygies 4 lascannon ballistari unit. Hear me out. The +2 to hit strategem is seriously good on a big units of walkers. +2 to hit on 8 lascannons is no joke and ballistari are 50 point platforms for lascannons, and points spent on lascannons (45) are never wasted. This unit will draw mad fire from your opponent, but it has the bonus that it can move and shoot when you use the strategem. It won't provide the mortal wound generation of the wrath of mars robots, but man will it remove pesky transports with ease. I wanted my dragoons to do serious work, but the proliferation of mega tau overwatch, autohitting super flamers from plagecrawls, lord of skulls godtier overwatch, and ynnari double-move charges made them semi-useless in 5 of 6 games. Sure, they absorbed fire, but ballistari could absorb comparable fire at reduced point efficiency. On top of this the 4 stack of ballistari could full BS overwatch with a strategm, which is hilarious. Talk about a lame screen to charge.
That idea has been tossed around. A unit of 4x Dragoons (6x if you want some redundancy) and a unit of 6x Lascannon or Autocannon Ballistarii. You want 6x for the same reason you want 6x Kastelans: more bang per CP.
Yeah, your Dragoons will die 90% of the time. But they're one of those threats that can't be ignored because if they pull off a charge, they're gobbling up one vehicle per turn.
takonite wrote: There is also the autocannon variant, what do you think of that one?
It can replace Kastelans for anti-horde, but it's not as point efficient. That being said, they are definitely super annoying to deal with.
Aaranis wrote: Personnally I use the Electromancer canticle like this: get the canticle, now every time an Adeptus Mechanicus units gets within 1" of an enemy unit, this unit suffers the effect on a 6. The thing is I believe you can use it all round, so when you get charged during his turn, you have a chance to shock them. When you get piled-in by enemy models, you get to shock them. Same thing when it's my turn, let's say I charge with my Vanguards, I roll it once, then I pile-in into a different unit after wiping out the precedent, I roll it a second time. The thing to remember being that a single enemy unit can't be affected by the shock more than once.
I'm playing it like this at my store and noone finds this unreasonable. It's still a very low probability to do actual wounds but at least the threat is constant, and sometimes you get surprising results like my Fulgurites finishing off Typhus in CC.
This is how I play it. ANd I've brought it up to my opponents and gaming group for clarity and to be upfront and they all agree that what the wording implies. Otherwise its garbage.
Suzuteo wrote: Uh... yes? You move your tanks more often than not, I hope? One of the big deals about Crawlers was actually that they have BS3+ and no hit penalty for moving.
not the tank tanks (maybe once per game for better vantage) that's what the armored fist squads are for. not sure if i'd go normal squads in chimera's or tempestus squads in taurox primes. leaning taurox primes because those things are bad ass.
ph34r wrote: They do have the forgeworld keyword. But anyway, elite choice, no point.
I'm just blind. I thought you said he doesn't have forgeworld and has admech derp derp.
If they're 10 points cheaper they might be viable to fill elite slots in a brigade if you werent planning on taking priests or infiltrators. I mean that puts us up to 6 units able to repair anything per turn. That is if the AM version has the same Master of machines rules. *
gendoikari87 wrote: so question. which is tougher to kill an onager with a 5+ invuln or a leman russ with +1w and T8
Depends on what is shooting at them. It factors in more when it is S7 and up weapons, which are usually what is being aimed at them. T8 means that S8 needs 4+ to wound, not 5+ for S7. Enemy S7 against Dunecrawlers needs 4+. So we would take more wounds in theory, but have a 33% chance to stop them.
I feel like this one has just too many variables to answer easily as is. We would need to break it down into specifics.
gendoikari87 wrote: so question. which is tougher to kill an onager with a 5+ invuln or a leman russ with +1w and T8
Depends on what is shooting at them. It factors in more when it is S7 and up weapons, which are usually what is being aimed at them. T8 means that S8 needs 4+ to wound, not 5+ for S7. Enemy S7 against Dunecrawlers needs 4+. So we would take more wounds in theory, but have a 33% chance to stop them.
I feel like this one has just too many variables to answer easily as is. We would need to break it down into specifics.
yeah that's my feeling too. and it probably depends a LOT on meta. if -2 weapons or less are the rage the 5++ doesn't matter -3 it matters some -4 it matters a lot. right now i'd say with plasma spam being prevalent it's probably a wash between the -3 (point in favor of the crawler and str 7/8(point in favor of the russ)
gendoikari87 wrote: so question. which is tougher to kill an onager with a 5+ invuln or a leman russ with +1w and T8
Depends on what is shooting at them. It factors in more when it is S7 and up weapons, which are usually what is being aimed at them. T8 means that S8 needs 4+ to wound, not 5+ for S7. Enemy S7 against Dunecrawlers needs 4+. So we would take more wounds in theory, but have a 33% chance to stop them.
I feel like this one has just too many variables to answer easily as is. We would need to break it down into specifics.
yeah that's my feeling too. and it probably depends a LOT on meta. if -2 weapons or less are the rage the 5++ doesn't matter -3 it matters some -4 it matters a lot. right now i'd say with plasma spam being prevalent it's probably a wash between the -3 (point in favor of the crawler and str 7/8(point in favor of the russ)
You've also got the 5++ re-roll on crawlers if two are next to eachother. anything -3 and above puts the russ at a distinct disadvantage imo, saving on a 6 on -3 or getting no save on a -4. But as you say str 7 and -3 is the standard for plasma which is extremely accessible compared to -4 weapons. technically a crawler can be repaired more effectively than a russ, if it survives the round. A dunecrawler also has no penalty in firepower for moving to retreat.
Don't forget the str 8 damage 2 when supercharged. everyones afraid of those mortal wounds but it's a good pay off to double your effective damage on vehicles and also wound on at least a 4+. factor in re rolls and they get nice. that said cadians with their reroll of 1 and the tank order is just really really good together.
ph34r wrote: They do have the forgeworld keyword. But anyway, elite choice, no point.
If they don't have the "Ad Mech" Keyword, the entire detachment they are in wouldn't benefit from canticles, it wold end up being an "Imperium" detachment
ph34r wrote: They do have the forgeworld keyword. But anyway, elite choice, no point.
If they don't have the "Ad Mech" Keyword, the entire detachment they are in wouldn't benefit from canticles, it wold end up being an "Imperium" detachment
Spoil sport it has the cult mechanicus keyword, so if you wanted to be pure cult you could still use them as elites.
gendoikari87 wrote: so question. which is tougher to kill an onager with a 5+ invuln or a leman russ with +1w and T8
Depends on what is shooting at them. It factors in more when it is S7 and up weapons, which are usually what is being aimed at them. T8 means that S8 needs 4+ to wound, not 5+ for S7. Enemy S7 against Dunecrawlers needs 4+. So we would take more wounds in theory, but have a 33% chance to stop them.
I feel like this one has just too many variables to answer easily as is. We would need to break it down into specifics.
The Onager saves better period. 2+/5++ beats 3+ every time. People avoid Str8 weapons for anti tank purposes because of the risk of running into knights. You don't see Missile Launcher spam builds but you sure do see a lot of LasCannon spam builds. Also, there isn't a lot of Str7 firepower in the game. Only autocannons specificlaly hit at Str7 and they are relatively rare in competitive play. Also, Onagers are cheaper, so their wounds go farther. And The Onagers take substantially less accuracy degredation as they take wounds. A bottom tier Leman russ hits on 6s and the codex offers no help to improve those 6s. Admech has all kinds of tricks to get those Onagers firing proper. If you already have Cawl, then you should be taking Onagers. If you are Stygies, wow, them Onagers are way tougher than Leman's with that -1.
Think about the premier anti tank weapons in this game. Lascannons(9/-3), Melta(8/-4), Railguns(10/-4), Neutrons(10/-4). People bring -4 to games and Leman's flatly don't get a save against that. Models without invuls get punked in this meta.
gendoikari87 wrote: so question. which is tougher to kill an onager with a 5+ invuln or a leman russ with +1w and T8
Depends on what is shooting at them. It factors in more when it is S7 and up weapons, which are usually what is being aimed at them. T8 means that S8 needs 4+ to wound, not 5+ for S7. Enemy S7 against Dunecrawlers needs 4+. So we would take more wounds in theory, but have a 33% chance to stop them.
I feel like this one has just too many variables to answer easily as is. We would need to break it down into specifics.
The Onager saves better period. 2+/5++ beats 3+ every time. People avoid Str8 weapons for anti tank purposes because of the risk of running into knights. You don't see Missile Launcher spam builds but you sure do see a lot of LasCannon spam builds. Also, there isn't a lot of Str7 firepower in the game. Only autocannons specificlaly hit at Str7 and they are relatively rare in competitive play. Also, Onagers are cheaper, so their wounds go farther. And The Onagers take substantially less accuracy degredation as they take wounds. A bottom tier Leman russ hits on 6s and the codex offers no help to improve those 6s. Admech has all kinds of tricks to get those Onagers firing proper. If you already have Cawl, then you should be taking Onagers. If you are Stygies, wow, them Onagers are way tougher than Leman's with that -1.
Think about the premier anti tank weapons in this game. Lascannons(9/-3), Melta(8/-4), Railguns(10/-4), Neutrons(10/-4). People bring -4 to games and Leman's flatly don't get a save against that. Models without invuls get punked in this meta.
Like I said. A lot of variables that need to be looked at specifically.
Wulfey wrote: The Onager saves better period. 2+/5++ beats 3+ every time. People avoid Str8 weapons for anti tank purposes because of the risk of running into knights. You don't see Missile Launcher spam builds but you sure do see a lot of LasCannon spam builds. Also, there isn't a lot of Str7 firepower in the game. Only autocannons specificlaly hit at Str7 and they are relatively rare in competitive play. Also, Onagers are cheaper, so their wounds go farther. And The Onagers take substantially less accuracy degredation as they take wounds. A bottom tier Leman russ hits on 6s and the codex offers no help to improve those 6s. Admech has all kinds of tricks to get those Onagers firing proper. If you already have Cawl, then you should be taking Onagers. If you are Stygies, wow, them Onagers are way tougher than Leman's with that -1.
Think about the premier anti tank weapons in this game. Lascannons(9/-3), Melta(8/-4), Railguns(10/-4), Neutrons(10/-4). People bring -4 to games and Leman's flatly don't get a save against that. Models without invuls get punked in this meta.
It's a good point on the high AP weapons. Leman Russ is certainly way more resilient to small-arms fire, but with a savvy opponent this may not matter much.
My question then becomes, what is the right number of onagers? Is 2 too are, would 3 be better? Assuming they are all neutron onagers.
Wulfey wrote: The Onager saves better period. 2+/5++ beats 3+ every time. People avoid Str8 weapons for anti tank purposes because of the risk of running into knights. You don't see Missile Launcher spam builds but you sure do see a lot of LasCannon spam builds. Also, there isn't a lot of Str7 firepower in the game. Only autocannons specificlaly hit at Str7 and they are relatively rare in competitive play. Also, Onagers are cheaper, so their wounds go farther. And The Onagers take substantially less accuracy degredation as they take wounds. A bottom tier Leman russ hits on 6s and the codex offers no help to improve those 6s. Admech has all kinds of tricks to get those Onagers firing proper. If you already have Cawl, then you should be taking Onagers. If you are Stygies, wow, them Onagers are way tougher than Leman's with that -1.
Think about the premier anti tank weapons in this game. Lascannons(9/-3), Melta(8/-4), Railguns(10/-4), Neutrons(10/-4). People bring -4 to games and Leman's flatly don't get a save against that. Models without invuls get punked in this meta.
It's a good point on the high AP weapons. Leman Russ is certainly way more resilient to small-arms fire, but with a savvy opponent this may not matter much.
My question then becomes, what is the right number of onagers? Is 2 too are, would 3 be better? Assuming they are all neutron onagers.
I am strongly considering triple Neutron. Seriously. Shutting down high toughness multi-wound threats fast and hard would really help. We have the Robots to do the heavy lifting on the GEQ/MEQ/TEQ front.
gendoikari87 wrote: so question. which is tougher to kill an onager with a 5+ invuln or a leman russ with +1w and T8
Against anti-tank weapons, which are S8 an AP-2 and up, I would say that the invulnerable does lot more. There are a lot of Earthshakers, plasma, and Battle Cannon equivalents out there.
ph34r wrote: My question then becomes, what is the right number of onagers? Is 2 too are, would 3 be better? Assuming they are all neutron onagers.
I have done 2 Icarus and 2 Neutron for a long, long time. (But if I add a Tank Commander, I might do 3.)
I tried to convince many in here when codex released the proper way is 3 neutronagers.
The real question though is how many if you run also
basilisk balistarii lascannon and or earthshakers.
Cant have all. And every single time i dont take that third onager or replace it with icarus so far i regret it. Thats why i asked for feedback.
I can see the appeal on earthshakers but...And ok i like the option to hit targets with no los. SO i try with 1-2 shakers or a basilisk results not close to onager yet....
The question.
1)1-2 balistarii lasc for outrider
2)1x4 vs 2 onager for the buff +2 hit (no point since with out -1 hit they are worse)
3)1-2 Earths for los hitting bs4 re 1s or one basilisk for non fw
And dragoons in mars are pointless balistarii better for MArs for rerolls but still ironstriders without stygies become a secondary option for me. Celestine can deliver 12-12 move and tie enemy lines better but 3-4 dragoons with -2 and infiltrate can be leathal and in many cases more durable yes(+canticles).
i dont know so far i have tested games with
1xbasilisk
1x3 dragoons (mars)
1x3 onagers
some Celestine some not.
I really try to fit an outrider in Celestines place making it
2x1 balistarii (screeners-shooter) As dual roles can be equal to neutronager...?
1x34 dragoons stygies
and an Enginseer
its really different every time this is why came here.
P.s Heavy weapons team 3x lasc 78 points and its what spam guard will play. Paper but cheap and rer 1s cadia.
3 Neutron Crawlers and 6 Kastelans works. I personally just prefer to diversify. 2 Icarus, 2 Neutron, 4 Kastelans handles a meta where your primary threats are hordes and not massed tanks, which get handled by Dragoons anyway.
I am wondering if a Catachan Earthshaker could get close to the same firepower as the 3x lascannon HWT. About 5 shots instead of 3, but need Harker if you want a reroll, and d3 damage not d6. Same strength and AP. The FAQ buffs feels significant.
Yoda79 wrote: I tried to convince many in here when codex released the proper way is 3 neutronagers.
And it didn't factor in until the Guard Codex released. Now, it is far more prudent since we will see less dude spam and more armor. Even still, three may be overkill. Got to see how the meta shakes out.
And I too fear cheap lascannon spam. It really wrecks out Robots when it is en masse.
In ITC, I am thinking 3x Neutron over Celestine and 2x Neutron. Right now Celestine gives up max points on Kingslayer and Headhunter (if geminae, which you should be running) every game. A third Neutron is a 3rd BGH point, but if your opponent kills all 3 Onagers then you are not winning that game anyways. Celestine is very good at killing infantry hiding somewhere on the far side of the board and killing flimsy characters who try to hide. Earthshakers can do the infantry killing job quite well post FAQ thanks to the new -3. The character assasination that Celestine does can't be replaced. Assassins aren't even close to as powerful as Celestine, even in pairs.
A third Neutron will contribute to you winning the game from turn 1 until it blows up. Celestine is really great at the end of the game for wiping up hiding characters using her effective 24" flying movement.
Yoda79 wrote: I tried to convince many in here when codex released the proper way is 3 neutronagers.
And it didn't factor in until the Guard Codex released. Now, it is far more prudent since we will see less dude spam and more armor. Even still, three may be overkill. Got to see how the meta shakes out.
And I too fear cheap lascannon spam. It really wrecks out Robots when it is en masse.
Again, Icarus Crawlers. They are superior to Neutron for HWTs and Bash Brothers, and they make Tau and Eldar cry. (Scat Bike spam might be a thing again.)
Wulfey wrote: In ITC, I am thinking 3x Neutron over Celestine and 2x Neutron. Right now Celestine gives up max points on Kingslayer and Headhunter (if geminae, which you should be running) every game. A third Neutron is a 3rd BGH point, but if your opponent kills all 3 Onagers then you are not winning that game anyways. Celestine is very good at killing infantry hiding somewhere on the far side of the board and killing flimsy characters who try to hide. Earthshakers can do the infantry killing job quite well post FAQ thanks to the new -3. The character assasination that Celestine does can't be replaced. Assassins aren't even close to as powerful as Celestine, even in pairs.
A third Neutron will contribute to you winning the game from turn 1 until it blows up. Celestine is really great at the end of the game for wiping up hiding characters using her effective 24" flying movement.
Wait. So 6 Earthshakers and 3 Neutron Crawlers? It seems to be overkill on the anti-tank. >_>
Also, remember that Scat Bikes are going from 35 points each to 28 points each. So it's 252 points for a unit that has 36 S6 AP0 D1 shots at 36" range on a T4 W2 body with M16". x_x
Build the Dunecrawler legs like normal, and then cut off the entirety of the hemisphere on top so you have a flat surface.
I like to then also cut just the claw part off of each foot and reposition them so they are more splayed out to the side, instead of vertical like a walking Crawler.
I also used magnets to let the cannon move around.
I consider 2 balistarii to swap an onager. So most likely I d run 2 neutron and 2 lasc balistarii.
If it was a plain question neutronager or earthshakers or balistarii I prefer neutronager. The issue rise for...
1) I consider ironstriders and dragoons and lascbal to cover a second role in stygia. 2 forms 1*4 dragoons for ssault with +2 buff but also 1*4 balistarii for the same reason.
Still since I can't seem to have n effective Celestine I yet prefer 1*3-4 dragoons. So here comes the question do I pay 52 for a healer enginseers on my balistarii and erthshker so I can get an outrider stygia with 2*1 lascb and 1*3-4 dragoons?
2) same question about earthshakers I can't take 2-3 cause they are forgeworld an in game I usually try basilisk. One basilik ND one Hwt+ratlings (same points so feel free to swap). It's not the same but feel free to try whatever your local allows . Again if it was basilisk or neutron I d take neutron minly cause adeptus mechanicus works better with nice guns nice invu reroll canticles . I don't find that in any other imperium atm. But earth shakers shoot los targets. There is the issue. So as I said what is the proper combination
A) I don't consider 3 neutron overkill nor now not cause of meta. Why cause the d3 shots some times don't do much. And I use them effectively even vs chars. Tau lost cause of ongers not icarus. That -4 can't be found elsewhere and when my enemy focus on the robots or they loose I need heavy shooting after that. And yes you might win games with hordes easier but you won't in knights heavy tanks armor lists razorback etc. You can shoot neutronager to chars mass etc effectively but won't win a fortifacation with icarus. And there are a lot of tranposrt lists turox list knight list . Lots just because if you invest in t8 plasma only you loose. It's the first antilist. Take a knight take chars.
Lots of str 6-7 shot when you got 4-6 robots icarus autocannon is overkill. You LL be shooting troops with 4 str 7 shots for what?
So to sum up my intention to justify no icarus but 3 neutron was because 3 seemed to me to deliver. Effectively consistent and role. Your list could justify an antitank role. 2 neutron 1 icarus might do it. Might play better vs tau or eldar but most likely would not be an antitank role.
Now we got basilisk or 2 -3 earth. 2-4 lascbal. And 2-3 neutronagers. Overkill. So what's the sweet spot? It seems in a soup list more logical 2neutron 1 icarus when you have also balistarii and /or shakers.
Yeah, my current model count and lists only support 3 and 3. 3 Neutrons and 3 Earthshakers.
About converting earthshaker platforms. I talked to some guys and they said that the real thing is actually larger than we thought. I have the center base and gun big and high enough, but the struts need to be seriously long and there needs to be 4 of them. If I play mine in a competitive setting again I am adding more struts.
EDIT: I have another reason why I don't like icarus. They take longer to play and remember. Every shot is 3 different wounding profiles. Neutron is 2 and they are easier to roll. And everything that the Icarus is better at than the Neutron is actually something I should be shooting with the robots. Nobody brings Flyers with invulnerable saves right now. And the Neutron counters what the robots can't. If I am shooting at an invul save target, then I prefer my robots.
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Valhallan Patrol Detachment - 257
HQ - 197 Tank Commander - Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila
Troop - 60 20x Conscript - Lasgun
Total: 1999 points 7 Command Points
I cut a lot of the HQs to fit in some Guard utility. I think Conscripts are still good with Valhallan doctrine. Valhallan doctrine also lets my Tank Commander fight on while damaged. (There is also the option to send in the next wave, but I probably won't bother.)
Reduced the Dragoon count down to 6, which is 4 with redundancy. Not sure if I will like it.
To be honest, it's still a bit up in the air how good the CP recycling is. I might just go with Wulfey's route of Earthshakers with a Company Commander. (At least then my tax Enginseers can still repair.)
EDIT: I have another reason why I don't like icarus. They take longer to play and remember. Every shot is 3 different wounding profiles. Neutron is 2 and they are easier to roll. And everything that the Icarus is better at than the Neutron is actually something I should be shooting with the robots. Nobody brings Flyers with invulnerable saves right now. And the Neutron counters what the robots can't. If I am shooting at an invul save target, then I prefer my robots.
What? Every Chaos and Eldar army brings flyers with invulnerable saves.
EDIT: I have another reason why I don't like icarus. They take longer to play and remember. Every shot is 3 different wounding profiles. Neutron is 2 and they are easier to roll. And everything that the Icarus is better at than the Neutron is actually something I should be shooting with the robots. Nobody brings Flyers with invulnerable saves right now. And the Neutron counters what the robots can't. If I am shooting at an invul save target, then I prefer my robots.
What? Every Chaos and Eldar army brings flyers with invulnerable saves.
In all my Socal Open games, I can think of no situation where i would have preferred the icarus.
Neutrons aced a guard flier and guard cars first game. Neutrons did work against knights second game. Neutrons were essential to hurting plagueburst crawlers third game. Neutrons aced eldar flier and killed wave serpents 4th game. Neutrons wrecked tau tanks 5th game. Neutrons did most of damage to wave serpents 6th game.
Icarus is superior against none of those targets. Wave serpecnts have -1 to all damage, so volume of fire doesn't work against them. Icarus also sucks against T8 targets. If you fail to bring something to answer T8, then you will lose to T8.
EDIT: yes, I know, BUT WHAT ABOUT HORDES WULFEY? ICARUS IS SLIGHTLY BETTER AGAINST HORDES? Who cares about hordes. If you are bringing dakka bots then horde armies are just feed. I didn't face a single horde enemy and I wish I did. I can think of 2 common targets where the Icarus is better. Harlequin/DE tiny tank fliers that have -1 and 5++, and the Chaos flyer mecha dragon that has a 5++. Those are some of the weakest possible opponents and the rest of your army should be able to flatten those things.
You didn't have any Icarus to compare against though.
Icarus is superior to Neutron for most Tau and Eldar units (including their transports and tanks), against Daemon Primarchs, and for when you run into a horde army.
Wulfey wrote: EDIT: yes, I know, BUT WHAT ABOUT HORDES WULFEY? ICARUS IS SLIGHTLY BETTER AGAINST HORDES? Who cares about hordes. If you are bringing dakka bots then horde armies are just feed. I didn't face a single horde enemy and I wish I did.
I can think of 2 common targets where the Icarus is better. Harlequin/DE tiny tank fliers that have -1 and 5++, and the Chaos flyer mecha dragon that has a 5++. Those are some of the weakest possible opponents and the rest of your army should be able to flatten those things.
Not slightly. Way better. With Neutron, you're dealing a maximum of 3 wounds to a unit of Boyz. Also, 6 Kastelans cannot stop a horde; there is literally no chance because lascannons outrange them, and you need to root yourself to get the efficiency.
Anyhow, I'm not saying everyone should replace all Neutrons with Icarus. Also not saying that 6 Kastelans and 3 Neutron is a bad combination. I just don't think you should be dismissive of Icarus when they are clearly more effective than Neutron against a variety of targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Wave Serpents cannot reduce damage lower than 1. And even in the case of common Eldar flyers without Forceshields, Icarus Crawlers are on-par or superior to Neutron:
Wulfey wrote: Yeah, my current model count and lists only support 3 and 3.
3 Neutrons and 3 Earthshakers.
About converting earthshaker platforms. I talked to some guys and they said that the real thing is actually larger than we thought. I have the center base and gun big and high enough, but the struts need to be seriously long and there needs to be 4 of them. If I play mine in a competitive setting again I am adding more struts.
EDIT: I have another reason why I don't like icarus. They take longer to play and remember. Every shot is 3 different wounding profiles. Neutron is 2 and they are easier to roll. And everything that the Icarus is better at than the Neutron is actually something I should be shooting with the robots. Nobody brings Flyers with invulnerable saves right now. And the Neutron counters what the robots can't. If I am shooting at an invul save target, then I prefer my robots.
I have seen before Earthshaker Platforms based on the forge world Turret Emplacement, and as such I interpret that size to be acceptable for an earthshaker platform:
I found rather effective to use armies according to their strengths .
So guard form nicely and cheap with a battalion. No need conscripts commisars bla bla. A simple commander los. And one more to lead 3 infantry 180 points.
Stygia work perfect with outrider and lots of dragoons and balistarii for screen. One enginseers is enough healing and lower tax. And why take rangers when you can take infantry and dragoons.
With this setup especially if I get also basilisk or 1-2 shakers I can see 2 neutron 1 icarus yes. That's why I asked what's your favorite setup. I have not yet lost with this sort of list but I have to say .
Outrider stygia vs all mars is way different.
Celestine or more ironstrider is different.
Basilisk hwt and ratlings vs 2 earth also different.
As I said I don't have Celestine so it was easy to change to ourider. Same goes for earth . I got a basilisk and 3 neutronagers
And worked for me so far. Need feedback on 2 shakers and 2 neutron 1 icarus!! But won't fit all that.most likely will ditch the icarus...?
Is it kosher to change base sizes? I hate the fact that, if your Onagers are not based, they are flat out better because you can fit them in smaller spaces. The 130mm base is huge compared to an Onager particularly if you do not put the extended pads on it.
However, I think walkers without bases look ugly. So I have a choice between, have units I think are ugly, or take bases that make them significantly worse.
Is there a third option? Can I just rebase my Onagers onto 100mm bases? Then, rather than swimming in extra room, they would just barely fit.
I avoid using Onager bases mainly because it's really hard to have vehicles move across uneven terrain on their bases. It's so much easier to have them at an angled inclination without the base.
Suzuteo wrote: You didn't have any Icarus to compare against though.
Icarus is superior to Neutron for most Tau and Eldar units (including their transports and tanks), against Daemon Primarchs, and for when you run into a horde army.
Wulfey wrote: EDIT: yes, I know, BUT WHAT ABOUT HORDES WULFEY? ICARUS IS SLIGHTLY BETTER AGAINST HORDES? Who cares about hordes. If you are bringing dakka bots then horde armies are just feed. I didn't face a single horde enemy and I wish I did. I can think of 2 common targets where the Icarus is better. Harlequin/DE tiny tank fliers that have -1 and 5++, and the Chaos flyer mecha dragon that has a 5++. Those are some of the weakest possible opponents and the rest of your army should be able to flatten those things.
Not slightly. Way better. With Neutron, you're dealing a maximum of 3 wounds to a unit of Boyz. Also, 6 Kastelans cannot stop a horde; there is literally no chance because lascannons outrange them, and you need to root yourself to get the efficiency.
Anyhow, I'm not saying everyone should replace all Neutrons with Icarus. Also not saying that 6 Kastelans and 3 Neutron is a bad combination. I just don't think you should be dismissive of Icarus when they are clearly more effective than Neutron against a variety of targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Wave Serpents cannot reduce damage lower than 1. And even in the case of common Eldar flyers without Forceshields, Icarus Crawlers are on-par or superior to Neutron:
Icarus vs. Wave Serpent 41.48 points per wound
Icarus vs. Hemlock 23.30 points per wound
Neutron vs. Wave Serpent 39.37 points per wound
Neutron vs. Hemlock 35 points per wound
I am on my laptop so I can't format my numbers right, but I am not getting numbers like yours.
Neutron v Wave Serpent: 3*0.88*0.33*0.33 + 2*0.88*0.67*((2+2+2+3+4+5)/6) = 3.89 expected wounds on a 3+ to hit rerolling ICarus v Wave Serpent 4*0.97*0.5*0.5*1 + 5*0.97*0.33*0.67*1 + 1*0.97*0.67*0.16*((1+1+2+3+4+5)/6) = 2.31 on a 2+ to hit rerolling
And all these numbers are actually lower due to the 6+ FNP these things have
Suzuteo wrote: You didn't have any Icarus to compare against though.
Icarus is superior to Neutron for most Tau and Eldar units (including their transports and tanks), against Daemon Primarchs, and for when you run into a horde army.
Wulfey wrote: EDIT: yes, I know, BUT WHAT ABOUT HORDES WULFEY? ICARUS IS SLIGHTLY BETTER AGAINST HORDES? Who cares about hordes. If you are bringing dakka bots then horde armies are just feed. I didn't face a single horde enemy and I wish I did.
I can think of 2 common targets where the Icarus is better. Harlequin/DE tiny tank fliers that have -1 and 5++, and the Chaos flyer mecha dragon that has a 5++. Those are some of the weakest possible opponents and the rest of your army should be able to flatten those things.
Not slightly. Way better. With Neutron, you're dealing a maximum of 3 wounds to a unit of Boyz. Also, 6 Kastelans cannot stop a horde; there is literally no chance because lascannons outrange them, and you need to root yourself to get the efficiency.
Anyhow, I'm not saying everyone should replace all Neutrons with Icarus. Also not saying that 6 Kastelans and 3 Neutron is a bad combination. I just don't think you should be dismissive of Icarus when they are clearly more effective than Neutron against a variety of targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Wave Serpents cannot reduce damage lower than 1. And even in the case of common Eldar flyers without Forceshields, Icarus Crawlers are on-par or superior to Neutron:
Icarus vs. Wave Serpent
41.48 points per wound
Icarus vs. Hemlock
23.30 points per wound
Neutron vs. Wave Serpent
39.37 points per wound
Neutron vs. Hemlock
35 points per wound
I am on my laptop so I can't format my numbers right, but I am not getting numbers like yours.
Neutron v Wave Serpent:
3*0.88*0.33*0.33 + 2*0.88*0.67*((2+2+2+3+4+5)/6) = 3.89 expected wounds on a 3+ to hit rerolling
ICarus v Wave Serpent
4*0.97*0.5*0.5*1 + 5*0.97*0.33*0.67*1 + 1*0.97*0.67*0.16*((1+1+2+3+4+5)/6) = 2.31 on a 2+ to hit rerolling
And all these numbers are actually lower due to the 6+ FNP these things have
Icarus array is a single ranged weapon with three profiles.
D3 = 2 shots average
BS3+ with reroll = 2/3+(1/3)(2/3) chance to hit
S10 vs. T7 = 2/3 chance to wound
3+4 = 6/6 to miss save
(2+2+2+3+4+5)/6 = 3 average damage
Is it kosher to change base sizes? I hate the fact that, if your Onagers are not based, they are flat out better because you can fit them in smaller spaces. The 130mm base is huge compared to an Onager particularly if you do not put the extended pads on it.
However, I think walkers without bases look ugly. So I have a choice between, have units I think are ugly, or take bases that make them significantly worse.
Is there a third option? Can I just rebase my Onagers onto 100mm bases? Then, rather than swimming in extra room, they would just barely fit.
I'd have assumed the base is mandatory - by removing the base or changing the size, you're making it harder for an opponent to get into HTH combat with it - that's significant.
based on the numbers posted here, the difference between an icarus and neutron onager isnt significant enough for me to pick an icarus over neutron. UNLESS i know there's a boat load of tough fly units to be shot. It's just too marginal considering the icarus is at penalty to non fly.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Is there a third option? Can I just rebase my Onagers onto 100mm bases? Then, rather than swimming in extra room, they would just barely fit.
I'd have assumed the base is mandatory - by removing the base or changing the size, you're making it harder for an opponent to get into HTH combat with it - that's significant.
One might think that, but it seems pretty common for people to not base their Onagers at all.
Octovol wrote: based on the numbers posted here, the difference between an icarus and neutron onager isnt significant enough for me to pick an icarus over neutron. UNLESS i know there's a boat load of tough fly units to be shot. It's just too marginal considering the icarus is at penalty to non fly.
Neutron does well against high toughness targets with no invulnerable save. Icarus does well against any target that flies and any target that has low toughness. Kastelans do well against low toughness targets; Wrath of Mars lets them do well against anything with an invulnerable save.
When you trade Neutron for Icarus, you lose some anti-tank, but gain anti-horde and anti-air (Magnus, Hemlocks, Tau Commanders, Elysians, etc.) ability. They can be compared to Kastelans, which can handle much of the same target set with Wrath of Mars, but Icarus does not need CP to burn things out of the sky. In fact, given that comparison, it might be a matter of trading Kastelans and/or Neutrons for Icarus. (My mix of 4 Kastelans, 2 Neutron, 2 Icarus is essentially trading one each of 5 Kastelans, 3 Neutrons for 2 Icarus.)
Is it kosher to change base sizes? I hate the fact that, if your Onagers are not based, they are flat out better because you can fit them in smaller spaces. The 130mm base is huge compared to an Onager particularly if you do not put the extended pads on it.
However, I think walkers without bases look ugly. So I have a choice between, have units I think are ugly, or take bases that make them significantly worse.
Is there a third option? Can I just rebase my Onagers onto 100mm bases? Then, rather than swimming in extra room, they would just barely fit.
Not if you want to play in tournaments. You must use any base that has historically been supplied with your model. (Crawlers have only ever had 130mm dinner plates--which are very useful for denying pile-in/consolidation tricks, I might add.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can anyone get measurements for stock Earthshaker battery width and height? I'm not sure if Crawlers with the boots are comparable. If so, I might do the ph34r Earthshaker conversion.
The problem is the platform legs. The 130mm base is fine, but it needs platform legs to be right. I saw some guy had 3D printed ones and they were at least 3-4 inches long in 4 directions from the center.
EDIT: also, I am thinking of switching to CATACHAN since the CADIAN reroll 1 might not apply for the first turn. Which makes CATACHAN more reliable over the course of the game. I am not doing the "Relic of Lost Cadia" trick again.
OKay, here is my plan for nov11 at game empire. No celestine means I am not defaulting to throwing away so many secondaries in ITC. This gets me 5CP base after infiltration, but by deploying in right order I get the 5+ to get the refund on the dragoon infiltrate. This is also a 12 drop list, which is low enough to get the +1 against a lot of lists.
MARS spearhead Cawl + 5xDakkabots + 3xNeutron
STYGIES auxilliary 1x5 dragoons [infiltrated]
CATACHAN battalion Commander(5+/5+) Harker for reroll 1s first turn 3x10 guardsmen 1x3 ESBattery
Wulfey wrote: The problem is the platform legs. The 130mm base is fine, but it needs platform legs to be right. I saw some guy had 3D printed ones and they were at least 3-4 inches long in 4 directions from the center.
I maintain my disagreement with that. I quote here a 40k wiki:
Turret Emplacements can be armed with a wide variety of turret-mounted weaponry, most commonly the turret weapons taken from Leman Russ main battle tanks or Chimera transports. The most common Turret Emplacement mounts its turret upon a metal structure that houses the turret ring and electric motor used to rotate the turret. This structure is also the location of the primary entrance and exit into the emplacement. There are other, less common types of emplacement in use such as those made out of rockcrete. The Turret Emplacement is capable of being armed with a set of twin-linked Heavy Bolters, a Heavy Flamer, a Battle Cannon, a Multi-Laser, a Lascannon, an Autocannon, twin-linked Autocannons, a Plasma Cannon, a Plasma Destroyer, a Missile Launcher or twin-linked Missile Launchers, a Multi-Melta, a Demolisher Cannon, a Vanquisher Cannon, or an Inferno Cannon. The emplacement can also mount a Tarantula Sentry Gun armed with twin-linked Heavy Bolters, a Multi-Melta, or twin-linked Lascannons. It is also believed that the Turret Emplacement can be armed with fixed versions of the Hydra Flak Cannon, Manticore Missiles and launcher, or an Earthshaker Cannon.
Wulfey wrote: OKay, here is my plan for nov11 at game empire. No celestine means I am not defaulting to throwing away so many secondaries in ITC. This gets me 5CP base after infiltration, but by deploying in right order I get the 5+ to get the refund on the dragoon infiltrate. This is also a 12 drop list, which is low enough to get the +1 against a lot of lists.
MARS spearhead
Cawl + 5xDakkabots + 3xNeutron
STYGIES auxilliary
1x5 dragoons [infiltrated]
CATACHAN battalion
Commander(5+/5+)
Harker for reroll 1s first turn
3x10 guardsmen
1x3 ESBattery
Seems good to me. Not sure if Harker is 100% needed for only 3 earth shakers, though. Reroll 1s on 4+ to hit is 7/12 to hit rather than 6/12 to hit, or 40 points worth of value at 17% improvement per 80 point earthshaker. Looking at those numbers actually, it seems pretty good, though I will say for myself, I often put one earthshaker in a far corner away from my main castle, so there is no way it is actually benefiting from the reroll aura.
EDIT: I also like the thought of the Auxiliary detachment for Stygies Dragoons. Often the concept of Stygies Dragoons is saddled with splitting them into 3 groups and/or taking HQ and troops tax. Auxiliary seems worth it for only -1cp if you have the cp to spare. I will say however that makes your list a bit anemic on the command point front.
On command points. In one game I had like 13 CP with 6 starting CP. In another game I ended up with only 8. The 5+/5+ giveth and it taketh away. I generally believe that CP are best spent in a huge alpha strike.
EDIT: yes, running harker hurts the castle. But I think that my one opponent who called me out on it was right, that CADIA doesn't get the reroll 1s on the first turn. Which blows. I saw some mathhammer elsewhere that CATACHAN is like 20% and CADIA is like 16% improvement or something. It is close. I would need to run some ruby simulations to know what CATACHAN does. The other bonus of CATACHAN is leadership8 guardmen if I put the officer in just the right spot. Post commisar nerf, that LD8 is going to be necessary.
EDIT2: I am now reading that turret emplacement text. Very interesting. I guess that does make sense. Do you know where in what book that might be from?
gendoikari87 wrote: RAW you can stick any model on any base now. Or so I heard
As far as I can tell, there used to be rules in the rulebook, or at least a FAQ, dictating base sizes. And now in 8th edition, there is none.
Tournaments have their own rules for this, and they aren't budging on bases and MFA
Wulfey wrote: On command points. In one game I had like 13 CP with 6 starting CP. In another game I ended up with only 8. The 5+/5+ giveth and it taketh away. I generally believe that CP are best spent in a huge alpha strike.
EDIT: yes, running harker hurts the castle. But I think that my one opponent who called me out on it was right, that CADIA doesn't get the reroll 1s on the first turn. Which blows. I saw some mathhammer elsewhere that CATACHAN is like 20% and CADIA is like 16% improvement or something. It is close. I would need to run some ruby simulations to know what CATACHAN does. The other bonus of CATACHAN is leadership8 guardmen if I put the officer in just the right spot. Post commisar nerf, that LD8 is going to be necessary.
EDIT2: I am now reading that turret emplacement text. Very interesting. I guess that does make sense. Do you know where in what book that might be from?
I have numbers for Catachan. What comparison do you want done?
I am also very tempted to go with 3x Earthshaker, by the way.
Wulfey wrote: On command points. In one game I had like 13 CP with 6 starting CP. In another game I ended up with only 8. The 5+/5+ giveth and it taketh away. I generally believe that CP are best spent in a huge alpha strike.
EDIT: yes, running harker hurts the castle. But I think that my one opponent who called me out on it was right, that CADIA doesn't get the reroll 1s on the first turn. Which blows. I saw some mathhammer elsewhere that CATACHAN is like 20% and CADIA is like 16% improvement or something. It is close. I would need to run some ruby simulations to know what CATACHAN does. The other bonus of CATACHAN is leadership8 guardmen if I put the officer in just the right spot. Post commisar nerf, that LD8 is going to be necessary.
EDIT2: I am now reading that turret emplacement text. Very interesting. I guess that does make sense. Do you know where in what book that might be from?
Math wise, the Catachan Earthshaker gets about 4.96 shots average or something, with the normal (Cadian) earthshaker getting around 4.46 shots. Rerolling 1s provides a 16.66% increase in firepower, which if applied to 4.46 shots, equals 5.2 shots without rerolls, which is a mere 5% stronger than Catachan with no rerolls.
The page, which is on warhammer40k.wikia.com under Turret Emplacement, references:
"Imperial Armour Volume One - Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, pp. 198-202
Imperial Armour Volume Five - The Siege of Vraks - Part One, pg. 166
Imperial Armour Volume Six - The Siege of Vraks - Part Two, pp. 144, 189
Imperial Armour Volume Seven - The Siege of Vraks - Part Three, pg. 187"
I'll see what I can dig up.
I agree with you on the Alpha Strike command points. Turn 1, emplace robots, wrath of mars, and a couple miscellaneous ones (like Take Cover! which we can't do any more) can easily have you spend 5 of a starting 7 command points in one turn.
EDIT: I have looked through the Imperial Armour books and they do not contain an option for a Turret Emplacement with Earthshaker cannon. Many many other weapons, but not earthshaker. I have seen such a model converted at least once I am pretty sure. Not sure if I can find it.
EDIT: I'll be keeping my earthshaker batteries just how they are. The old Forgeworld Earthshaker legs are needlessly huge. The current forge world carriage is pretty small. A 130mm base seems fair. I was getting pushback from my community even for wanting to base them 130mm, because the bigger the base the better they are for blocking deep strike. Longer legs would also be better for blocking deep strike.
None of my opponents complained about the size of my earthshakers. The only guy who said it needed to be bigger was the one guy in the room who had those 3d Printed leg things. My knight base should be enough. If no one says anything 130mm should be fine. I am rethinking trying to glue on another set of struts unto mine. Mine are for sure way bigger than legit resin carriage batteries.
rvd1ofakind wrote: By the way, Icarus Onager is more durable :p
Which is why every upgrade should be substantially better as they don't change the durability
rvd1ofakind wrote: By the way, Icarus Onager is more durable :p
Which is why every upgrade should be substantially better as they don't change the durability
how so?
No clue, maybe he means 130 points vs 140 points = "more durable per point"
EDIT: for anyone interested, I plan to take the Catachan Leman Russ Conqueror to the battlefield this weekend, vs either the Perfidious Elfdar or the Iron Warriors.
165 points, 2x2d6 pick highest strength 8 AP -2 with rerolling all misses if I get to 24". I'm hoping to use it to plug the gap between backfield Onagers that need to stay within 6" of Cawl, and threats farther from my castle deployment that need heavy anti tank. It's my answer to the Third Onager Question. My assembly is almost complete, missing heavy leg armor plates (from defiler):
It's really simple. The pts cost increases, the durability stays the same. Therefor all upgrades have to be a lot better than the basic equipment to compensate for the decrease in durability
rvd1ofakind wrote: It's really simple. The pts cost increases, the durability stays the same. Therefor all upgrades have to be a lot better than the basic equipment to compensate for the decrease in durability
The Icarus is 8% more durable per point. By that metric, you would want the Neutron to be at least 8% stronger in firepower.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Is there a third option? Can I just rebase my Onagers onto 100mm bases? Then, rather than swimming in extra room, they would just barely fit.
I'd have assumed the base is mandatory - by removing the base or changing the size, you're making it harder for an opponent to get into HTH combat with it - that's significant.
One might think that, but it seems pretty common for people to not base their Onagers at all.
I have not based mine for two main reasons, I have no idea how I want my whole army bases to be and second, its so fething big it makes it impossible to transport.
Is there a third option? Can I just rebase my Onagers onto 100mm bases? Then, rather than swimming in extra room, they would just barely fit.
I'd have assumed the base is mandatory - by removing the base or changing the size, you're making it harder for an opponent to get into HTH combat with it - that's significant.
One might think that, but it seems pretty common for people to not base their Onagers at all.
I have not based mine for two main reasons, I have no idea how I want my whole army bases to be and second, its so fething big it makes it impossible to transport.
Magnetize the bases and transport them sideways or half of them upside-down.
But yeah, definitely do not base them on 100mm bases. People will call you out for MFA.
Wulfey wrote: OKay, here is my plan for nov11 at game empire. No celestine means I am not defaulting to throwing away so many secondaries in ITC. This gets me 5CP base after infiltration, but by deploying in right order I get the 5+ to get the refund on the dragoon infiltrate. This is also a 12 drop list, which is low enough to get the +1 against a lot of lists.
MARS spearhead
Cawl + 5xDakkabots + 3xNeutron
STYGIES auxilliary
1x5 dragoons [infiltrated]
CATACHAN battalion
Commander(5+/5+)
Harker for reroll 1s first turn
3x10 guardsmen
1x3 ESBattery
The list Is simple and nice but. Harker is elite. Missing one more hq. Cadian provide buff easier for vehicles and 2* commanders n do for infantry and orders and warlord los. Cheap. Catachan for me works if you invest points for melee straken priest for extreme melee. But does not synergise with dakka walls. 3* earthshkers is nice but its fw . Better have alternative like 2 basilisk and astropths. And I have to say for really competitive fights 2* basilisk and 2*astropths for 10 points difference worked better for me. More durable more anti psych etc.
Same goes for dragoons I can't seem to use more than 3 effectively. Dragoons are nice screener but their large bases for offensive are an issue. Experimenting I found an outrider with enginseer healing basilisk and lasc balistarii works wonders. Since my enemy usually throw some extra shots on ironstriders not all their heavy guns healing works. So 2*1 lasc balistarii with -1 to hit sides of my robots provide screener and 48" next to robots for enemies trying to out range my onagers. 3-4 dragoons with -2 are a lot more flexible and will do the work. You can survive going second and either way you don't have dragoons for their offence. Not to mention one less dragoon and a stygia outrider can also take 1*5 priests. You won't loose the cp and you still got all you had.
I understand if fw is allowed I'd use 2 earthshkers and astropths with balistarii rather than 3* earthshkers. That's me. I prefer to have. Deny inside my lines maybe if the game goes wrong for me. Healing and -1 to hit all over for obvious reasons.
gendoikari87 wrote: I'll trade 8% durability for something that works on all armor, the Icarus is just so situational it seems not worth it
The Icarus is hardly situational. If anything, the Neutron is actually more situational; the Icarus is more well-rounded because it's essentially a 48" BS4+ volume-fire tank that gets BS2+ against air.
I think this debate has everything to do with the meta you think you will face and the rest of the admech army composition. Admech has two things that wound T8 on a 3+ at range: neutron and ballistari. That is it. And the +2 to hit strategem really hurt the utility of the icarus against the targets it was better on. If people start bringing lots of 1 wound models against I could see mixing in icarus at 2-1. But the meta is dominated by big bad T8 vehicles and I can't count on 5+ to wound.
I'm planning on going to a tournament in early November.
I'd like to start researching the top units in other armies. Can we compile a list of high-threat target units and assess their weaknesses on a codex-by-codex basis with respect to the ITC missions?
If you didn't bring 5x dakkabots and Cawl, you lose. Nothing in the codex can efficiently hurt these guys because we don't have a source of mortal wounds that isn't 90 shots with Wrath of Mars.
If you didn't bring 5x dakkabots and Cawl, you lose. Nothing in the codex can efficiently hurt these guys because we don't have a source of mortal wounds that isn't 90 shots with Wrath of Mars.
Is 4 dakkabots enough? That's all I got that I can run WYSIWYG and the tournament is ITC format so I have to run REASONABLE proxies.
If you didn't bring 5x dakkabots and Cawl, you lose. Nothing in the codex can efficiently hurt these guys because we don't have a source of mortal wounds that isn't 90 shots with Wrath of Mars.
Is 4 dakkabots enough? That's all I got that I can run WYSIWYG and the tournament is ITC format so I have to run REASONABLE proxies.
I use 4 Kastelans and 2 Icarus Crawlers. You do need to bring roughly 600 points of anti-Daemon Primarch though. Cawl is also rather mandatory for shooting.
Anyone try rust stalkers with stygie? Seems like their strategam eleviates the one big flaw they have of no transport to get them up the board. I know they aren't .000000001% most effective by spreadsheeting in a vacume that doesn't account for actual tactics and army composition, but I'm not interested in taking an army that's cawl+12 robots *yawn*. so I'm wondering if anyone has actually tried it who can comment.
Danny slag wrote: Anyone try rust stalkers with stygie? Seems like their strategam eleviates the one big flaw they have of no transport to get them up the board. I know they aren't .000000001% most effective by spreadsheeting in a vacume that doesn't account for actual tactics and army composition, but I'm not interested in taking an army that's cawl+12 robots *yawn*. so I'm wondering if anyone has actually tried it who can comment.
I ran some today as a counter charge unit and all they succeeded in doing was allowing my opponent to tie his venoms in combat with them so I couldn’t shoot them. They lasted 2 rounds of combat and did virtually nothing, about 3 wounds on a venom. They’re essentially vanguard that can’t shoot for double the cost.
I only took them to be a target and fill points. I won’t be taking them again, snapping them and making them Infiltrators next chance I get....or I might leave them because they look badass in the hopes they somehow get a buff later. Unlikely. I’d go staff priests if I wanted to infiltrate a melee unit that wasn’t dragoons. Which incidentally my 3 strong unit of dragoons took out and entire incubi unit in one round, but that’s largely down to conqueror strat. Exploding on 4s at str 8 -1 and 2 dmg is probably better than the priests could do anyway.
I never depend on one unit. I use 4* robots and 5-10 staff priests stygia
Automatically Appended Next Post: But recently I'm considering 2 neutron and the third an icarus since I don't want to spend cp s. But but but. I use it in stygies cause I don't have room in Mars batt and then I gotta take a dominus and I'm still organising a list . Soup list is easy pure admech is the problem!!!
Danny slag wrote: Anyone try rust stalkers with stygie? Seems like their strategam eleviates the one big flaw they have of no transport to get them up the board. I know they aren't .000000001% most effective by spreadsheeting in a vacume that doesn't account for actual tactics and army composition, but I'm not interested in taking an army that's cawl+12 robots *yawn*. so I'm wondering if anyone has actually tried it who can comment.
Never tried them with the stratagem yet, but I don't think I intend to neither. I use them as anti-TEQ due to the number of mortal wounds they can deal. Of all the games I've had with them in 8th I've almost always been satisfied with them. I believe Ryza might be good for them, since they'll reroll their 1s to Wound, giving more chance for mortal wounds.
I admit they should be cheaper though, like 80 pts instead of 100 for five of them with Razors & Chordclaws.
LexOdin9 wrote: Are we posting pics? Yesterday's WIP counts-as Celestine AdMech conversion for the upcoming Nov tourney I mentioned earlier.
Spoiler:
LOL. The entire idea of a Celestine with a Skitarius head is hilarious.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyway, we might have spoken too soon. Here comes the Tyranid codex! (I wonder if they will combine with Genestealers.)
Faced down the Eldar yesterday. Their new book is way way way way stronger. Definitely jealous of the number of buffs they have while we got none. Really close game, but I won. Pictures here:
ph34r wrote: Faced down the Eldar yesterday. Their new book is way way way way stronger. Definitely jealous of the number of buffs they have while we got none. Really close game, but I won. Pictures here:
Yeah, Scat Bikes are back, and they're really mean too, with no penalties for moving AND a 20% cost reduction. The overall durability of their infantry improved as well.
What is the front-most Crawler conversion? The one that got blown up really fast. Breakdown of how it was made?
Suzuteo wrote: Ruststalkers are probably the worst unit in AdMech. I would sooner take Servitors than them. >_>
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ugh, finally finished another Dragoon. These things take forever, and I've been in crunch time at work all month.
Spoiler:
Yeah. Lance and front shield style. I do it that way so I can swap them back to ballistari if the rules change.
I’ve inverted the shield, makes magnetising the guns much easier I find. I’m quite proud of my ironstrider magnetising, no paint on them yet though, painting stuff is a whole other story of pain for me lol
I'm thinking of building PHEAR Crawlers and repurposing some Skitarii as my Master of Ordnance and Company Commander. (On a side note, I find it highly amusing how easy it is to backronym P.H.E.A.R. into Precision/Penetrating High Explosive Artillery Round/Rover.)
I will do some knife work and unseat the top half of my existing Crawlers, magnetize them; build one more of the legs and abdomen only. I will have 5 Crawler heads with 2 weapon choices each as well as 3 PHEAR heads to choose from.
Here is a list:
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1090
HQ - 250 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 840 5x Kastelan Robots - Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters, Heavy Phosphor Blasters
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Catachan Spearhead Detachment - 275
HQ - 35 1x Company Commander - Bolt Gun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila
Heavy Support - 240 1x Earthshaker Battery
1x Earthshaker Battery
1x Earthshaker Battery
Total: 1997 points 8 Command Points
If Tyranids make a huge comeback though, ontop of the Eldar and Daemon Primarchs jetting around, I might just dock a Kastelan and 2x Neutron for 3x Icarus. I'm actually quite confident of the Earthshakers' ability to kill vehicles now that they have AP-3.
ph34r wrote: Faced down the Eldar yesterday. Their new book is way way way way stronger. Definitely jealous of the number of buffs they have while we got none. Really close game, but I won. Pictures here:
Yeah, Scat Bikes are back, and they're really mean too, with no penalties for moving AND a 20% cost reduction. The overall durability of their infantry improved as well.
What is the front-most Crawler conversion? The one that got blown up really fast. Breakdown of how it was made?
Bikes were just cheap mobility units. Ulthwe Craftworld, everything was quite tough.
The one that got one-shot by 5 deep striking wraithguard was a Catachan Leman Russ Conqueror.
Assembly instructions: crawler legs like normal, cut off the hemissphere same as with my earthshakers to have a flat join. Then add one of these with bits to taste:
Danny slag wrote: Anyone try rust stalkers with stygie? Seems like their strategam eleviates the one big flaw they have of no transport to get them up the board. I know they aren't .000000001% most effective by spreadsheeting in a vacume that doesn't account for actual tactics and army composition, but I'm not interested in taking an army that's cawl+12 robots *yawn*. so I'm wondering if anyone has actually tried it who can comment.
Never tried them with the stratagem yet, but I don't think I intend to neither. I use them as anti-TEQ due to the number of mortal wounds they can deal. Of all the games I've had with them in 8th I've almost always been satisfied with them. I believe Ryza might be good for them, since they'll reroll their 1s to Wound, giving more chance for mortal wounds.
I admit they should be cheaper though, like 80 pts instead of 100 for five of them with Razors & Chordclaws.
I love the models but I can't get over how bad their rules are. I've tried to make them work in over 6 games and they just don't do it for me. I use Discosticks as my counter assault unit as they are more deadly and oddly enough more survivable and kick out almost as many mortal wounds. Lets us pray to the Cog God that they revamp Ruststalkers in the end of the year update.
Whoaaa. I just realized: Earthshaker Battery is not a vehicle! Cadia and Catachan doctrines don't work on them. And they can't be repaired!
So... I guess I will use the Militarum Tempestus doctrine instead? Thing is, I believe that I am not allowed to use that faction's keyword, so I guess it would have to be a custom regiment that just uses the MT doctrine. That means no Warlord trait, stratagem, or relic, just like Forge World regiments?
Also, this makes me wonder if the HQ tax in my Stygies detachment is worth it; I expected to park my Enginseers next to them. Maybe I will make a Mars Battalion and take the Dragoons as an Auxiliary detachment? Or just bite the bullet and pay the 104 points for 2 CP.
FInally, 130mm is okay for these Earthshaker batteries right? I read online that the legs of the original are 8.5" wide, but I'm not sure how reliable that is; that is MASSIVE relative to the size of an Earthshaker.
Oh I flubbed my last statement though. Cadian doctrine works with all models. So yeah, we can use that instead. But now that I mention it, Take Aim! + MT doctrine is pretty sick, since we get the Catachan volume reroll by default.
Suzuteo wrote: Oh I flubbed my last statement though. Cadian doctrine works with all models. So yeah, we can use that instead. But now that I mention it, Take Aim! + MT doctrine is pretty sick, since we get the Catachan volume reroll by default.
I am under the impression right now that the Militarum Tempestus doctrine cannot be taken by anyone other than units that have the actual Militarum Tempestus word written in.
I'd love that to not be the case, though. Any reasoning in particular you think it is doable?
Suzuteo wrote: Oh I flubbed my last statement though. Cadian doctrine works with all models. So yeah, we can use that instead. But now that I mention it, Take Aim! + MT doctrine is pretty sick, since we get the Catachan volume reroll by default.
I am under the impression right now that the Militarum Tempestus doctrine cannot be taken by anyone other than units that have the actual Militarum Tempestus word written in.
I'd love that to not be the case, though. Any reasoning in particular you think it is doable?
You are correct that you cannot take <Militarum Tempestus> because it is also a keyword, and there is a rule specifically forbidding it. However, you can make a custom regiment, like "Phear's Phollies" and, per the "pick the regiment doctrine that best represents your own" rule, select the MT doctrine. The downside though is that you cannot use anything that specifically needs the <Militarum Tempestus> keyword to work: orders, Warlord traits, stratagems, relics, unit abilities, etc.
Suzuteo wrote: You are correct that you cannot take <Militarum Tempestus> because it is also a keyword, and there is a rule specifically forbidding it. However, you can make a custom regiment, like "Phear's Phollies" and, per the "pick the regiment doctrine that best represents your own" rule, select the MT doctrine. The downside though is that you cannot use anything that specifically needs the <Militarum Tempestus> keyword to work: orders, Warlord traits, stratagems, relics, unit abilities, etc.
Is this true? I would certainly like to use that keyword, but I have my doubts.
By your logic, if you had a Catachan doctrine list, but were not specifically Catachans, you could not take their Warlord Trait?
So I was looking into allies with my AdMech. Could Space Marines make a decent ally? I was thinking about maybe a dreadnought heavy list or Primaris. Thoughts? Might be nice to have tanky dreads with IHFnP to help soak some of the damage.
Hellblasters if you can get them to within 12" are 2x as good for the points as anti tank thannonagers or close to it
Automatically Appended Next Post: Intercessors are wholly crap but good objective sitters
Automatically Appended Next Post: Your standard tac squad will always be the same old low threat jack of all trades objective grabbers they've always been
Suzuteo wrote: You are correct that you cannot take <Militarum Tempestus> because it is also a keyword, and there is a rule specifically forbidding it. However, you can make a custom regiment, like "Phear's Phollies" and, per the "pick the regiment doctrine that best represents your own" rule, select the MT doctrine. The downside though is that you cannot use anything that specifically needs the <Militarum Tempestus> keyword to work: orders, Warlord traits, stratagems, relics, unit abilities, etc.
Is this true? I would certainly like to use that keyword, but I have my doubts.
By your logic, if you had a Catachan doctrine list, but were not specifically Catachans, you could not take their Warlord Trait?
It's in the codex. It's also in our own codex in the Dogma section.
Correct. It is for cases like Salvar Chem-Dogs or Praetorian Guard.
militarum tempestus doesn't count for all that stuff. same for crusaders and the like they won't prevent the rest of the detatchment from getting the abilities but they themselves won't benefit.
also IIRC the way it works in the SM codex you can give them the specific traits for the warlord.
That's a separate rule. Putting MT, Astropaths, Enginseers, etc. into a Guard detachment won't cause the Guard to lose their doctrines, but they themselves do not benefit from their own doctrines, dogmas, etc.
What I am talking about is making a detachment composed of regular Guard units, giving them a custom regiment, then taking the MT doctrine as that custom regiment's doctrine.
Suzuteo wrote: That's a separate rule. Putting MT, Astropaths, Enginseers, etc. into a Guard detachment won't cause the Guard to lose their doctrines, but they themselves do not benefit from their own doctrines, dogmas, etc.
What I am talking about is making a detachment composed of regular Guard units, giving them a custom regiment, then taking the MT doctrine as that custom regiment's doctrine.
can you do that? i mean i'd still take catachan over MT but still.
Suzuteo wrote: That's a separate rule. Putting MT, Astropaths, Enginseers, etc. into a Guard detachment won't cause the Guard to lose their doctrines, but they themselves do not benefit from their own doctrines, dogmas, etc.
What I am talking about is making a detachment composed of regular Guard units, giving them a custom regiment, then taking the MT doctrine as that custom regiment's doctrine.
can you do that? i mean i'd still take catachan over MT but still.
I have not read conclusive proof that you can take the MT doctrine for your home brew, though I could believe it.
The strength of Catachan is partially the extra dice on vehicles, but also partially having Sergeant Harker for a standard reroll 1 to hit bubble. I think Militarum Tempestus doctrine might be weaker than that, but I have not done the exact math.
It's on P132 of the Guard codex:
"If your chosen regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that you feel that best represents your army. For example, as your army of Vostroyan Nobles does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you can decide that the Vostroyan: Heirloom Weapons doctrine best suits these wealthy and well-equipped fighters."
Note how in the example there is a custom regiment that takes a doctrine, but not the keyword; I bolded for emphasis. There is no rule against taking the MT doctrine ("Storm Troopers") as your own. There is a rule taking the KEYWORD "Militarum Tempestus" as your regiment though.
Even if Earthshaker Battery were a vehicle (which it is not), it already rolls two dice and discards one for shot volume. Therefore, it does not benefit from the Catatchan doctrine as much because you would be rerolling the lower dice and having to exceed the other dice.
In terms of the pure math, MT is very simple to calculate. Every 6 you roll increases your shot volume by 1. So it's a 16.67% damage increase for anything 50% range and below. Which is 120" for Earthshakers... (Anything that exceeds 87" can hit anything on the table.)
Suzuteo wrote: Even if Earthshaker Battery were a vehicle (which it is not), it already rolls two dice and discards one for shot volume. Therefore, it does not benefit from the Catatchan doctrine as much because you would be rerolling the lower dice and having to exceed the other dice.
I'm basically choosing to ignore the fact that the Earthshaker Battery doesn't have the Vehicle keyword. Seems like a typical Forgeworld incompetence mistake.
So, i had a match over the weekend with my friend's dark eldar army; 1500 points roughly.
The odds were stacked against me, mission was contact lost and 5 of the objective markers were his side of the board. So needless to say i lost on points turn 5 with half my army still intact and most of his destroyed.
What I'm really struggling to cope with is the FLY keyword, to me it seems absurdly underpointed. A flying unit can move where ever the hell it likes, land where it likes, fallback and shoot in any direction. For what seems like no additional points.
What it boiled down to is he had:
Spoiler:
3 venoms with a squad of 5 warriors in each,
a raider with a haemonculous and a squad of grotesques,
a raider with his archon and a squad of incubi,
a ravager toked up on dark lances
and 2 flyers whose names I forget.
Every single unit moves at least 16 inches, the flyers up to 72. So no matter how I deployed there was no stopping them getting wherever they wanted to go. Numerous times he would land a venom behind a ruin and charge through it immune to overwatch.
Everything he had was deployed out of sight, they can all move and fire at no penalty, not that it mattered because he went first.
So I mean I didn't struggle to deal damage and take stuff out, when i could see it and my stuff wasn't tied in combat, but I couldnt get anywhere near his objectives without just ignoring everything.
essentially this was my entire collection, just to make up points.
He dropped his warriors on backfield objectives out of LOS and then flew the venoms forward shooting and harassing. This is the first time i'd used dragoons and balistarii, both performed great, less so with the las balistarii because everything he has has an invulnerable save. Either way i could have done with more dragoons I think as he got some lucky shots and rolled 6 for dmg on 2 of them, otherwise i could have done a lot more with them.
Has anyone any advice for going against DE? His other army is Tyranids and foresee similar issues there lol
As you know, your army was held back by being your entire collection just to make points. If you grew your army or played 1250 or 1000 points you would do better.
What was your Forge World Dogma?
The Adeptus Mechanicus book is sadly bad in a lot of ways. The most obvious cuts I would make would be the rust stalkers, data smith, and to take the vanguard units down to cheaper sizes to take more artillery.
Dakka bots, dragoons, ballistarii, onagers, are all good.
ph34r wrote: As you know, your army was held back by being your entire collection just to make points. If you grew your army or played 1250 or 1000 points you would do better.
What was your Forge World Dogma?
The Adeptus Mechanicus book is sadly bad in a lot of ways. The most obvious cuts I would make would be the rust stalkers, data smith, and to take the vanguard units down to cheaper sizes to take more artillery.
Dakka bots, dragoons, ballistarii, onagers, are all good.
I took Stygies as my forgeworld, raiment of the technomartyr and monitor malevolous for my relic and warlord trait.
Thing is by turn 5 he only had his archon, 1 raider, the haemonculous and 1 squad of 5 warriors way in the backfield left. Thats it. All were hidden behind buildings.
I had both robots and datasmith, both onagers, 2 balistarii, the entire squad of 7 vanguard with arquebus, 1 of the arc rifle vanguard and my non-warlord dominus. Only one of the balistarii had taken damage, everything else was full wounds.
I really didn't struggle that much to kill stuff and to stay alive, what i couldnt do was manage any kind of battlefield control. his mobility just meant i was always reacting to what he did and didn't have the options myself to force any kind of reaction from him. I can imagine id end up with a similar issue against Eldar and/or harlequins.
And FLY meant there was literally no way i could corner anything to prevent him from running amok.
Explain? I mean i dont profess to know a whole lot about Tyranids, but most of those traits are pretty generic.
The worst offender from our point of view is the always in cover trait. So we get a random chance to get cover, they just get it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ph34r wrote: Mechanicus has big problems with mobility, and as you say, getting to stuff hiding on the other side of the board.
I use allies to fix this weakness. Elysians specifically are great.
So essentially to stay mechanicus i'm looking at infiltrators, risky-stygia-infiltrate units on first turn or lucius teleport a unit? I kinda thought that might be the case but secretly hoped someone had some super-secret strategy for dealing with highly mobile armies lol
@Octovol
Drop the Ruststalkers and second Dominus. Pick up another Crawler and an Enginseer.
To counter Fly, don't bother trying to pin him in CC or anything like that. I just castle up and shoot.
@gendoikari87
The cover one is insanely good. Really hurts a lot of anti-horde weaponry, which typically has zero or low AP. Fortunately, ours ignores cover.
gendoikari87 wrote: Yeah pretty much every single one of those traits for tyrranids is decent. Re rolling charges, especially the advance one....
More than that, every single one of them could plausibly be used in a focused purpose detachment. Take the cover one for the exocrines in a spearhead. Take the swarmy reroll to hit one in your troops battalion. Take the advance and fall back and charge one in your 3 hive tyrant group.
gendoikari87 wrote: Yeah pretty much every single one of those traits for tyrranids is decent. Re rolling charges, especially the advance one....
More than that, every single one of them could plausibly be used in a focused purpose detachment. Take the cover one for the exocrines in a spearhead. Take the swarmy reroll to hit one in your troops battalion. Take the advance and fall back and charge one in your 3 hive tyrant group.
Flyrants are going to be terrifying. Fall back, shoot, charge. T_T
ph34r wrote: Mechanicus has big problems with mobility, and as you say, getting to stuff hiding on the other side of the board.
I use allies to fix this weakness. Elysians specifically are great.
So essentially to stay mechanicus i'm looking at infiltrators, risky-stygia-infiltrate units on first turn or lucius teleport a unit? I kinda thought that might be the case but secretly hoped someone had some super-secret strategy for dealing with highly mobile armies lol
If you want pure mechanicus, then your best mobility units are Stygies VIII Dragoons, the lucius teleport/stygies infiltrate, Sicilian Infiltrators, and... it's not a very long list.
ph34r wrote: Mechanicus has big problems with mobility, and as you say, getting to stuff hiding on the other side of the board.
I use allies to fix this weakness. Elysians specifically are great.
So essentially to stay mechanicus i'm looking at infiltrators, risky-stygia-infiltrate units on first turn or lucius teleport a unit? I kinda thought that might be the case but secretly hoped someone had some super-secret strategy for dealing with highly mobile armies lol
If you want pure mechanicus, then your best mobility units are Stygies VIII Dragoons, the lucius teleport/stygies infiltrate, Sicilian Infiltrators, and... it's not a very long list.
Good catch on previous page on ESBatteries not being VEHICLES. I reread the 'born soldier's thing from AM Codex. It says reroll 1s if you didn't move in the previous movement phase. But the first turn always has a previous movement phase! It happened during your turn. This means the CATACHAN dream is dead. Just run CADIA, always, if you run ESBatteries. You always get the rerolling 1s and you can't even get the CATACHAN bonus for ESBatteries under RAW.
ph34r wrote: Mechanicus has big problems with mobility, and as you say, getting to stuff hiding on the other side of the board.
I use allies to fix this weakness. Elysians specifically are great.
So essentially to stay mechanicus i'm looking at infiltrators, risky-stygia-infiltrate units on first turn or lucius teleport a unit? I kinda thought that might be the case but secretly hoped someone had some super-secret strategy for dealing with highly mobile armies lol
If you want pure mechanicus, then your best is to wait for fires of cyraxus.
Hey guys, thought you might enjoy my latest painted models, as well as a current WIP of my Ogryns Destroyers, that will count-as Kataphron Destroyers in my future games. I'll finally get to try them for the first time this Friday against Tyranids (friendly game). C&C welcome of course.
Fulgurite Electro-Priests
Spoiler:
Sicarian Ruststalkers
Spoiler:
Onager Dunecrawler 1, Neutron Laser
Spoiler:
WIP, conversion of Ogryns to count as Kataphron Destroyers
If you want pure mechanicus, then your best is to wait for fires of cyraxus.
FIFY
I think we all know that book is a myth
Confirmed for 2018 per Tony Cottrell. Still don't think it will solve our faction's problems unless they give us cheap chaff Thralls and better strategems and a new FW trait that is worth taking so we can break up the Mars/Stygies monopoly.
If you want pure mechanicus, then your best is to wait for fires of cyraxus.
FIFY
I think we all know that book is a myth
Confirmed for 2018 per Tony Cottrell. Still don't think it will solve our faction's problems unless they give us cheap chaff Thralls and better strategems and a new FW trait that is worth taking so we can break up the Mars/Stygies monopoly.
ill just be glad to use thallax cohorts good or not. Also the big robot with the mega beam cannon can't remember it's name. They'll be fun if not competitive. Myrmidons will be the big icing on the cake for me. That said if no date is set by march I'm selling my mechanicus and going guard....might still sell everything if it is but for the big bots
If you want pure mechanicus, then your best is to wait for fires of cyraxus.
FIFY
I think we all know that book is a myth
Confirmed for 2018 per Tony Cottrell. Still don't think it will solve our faction's problems unless they give us cheap chaff Thralls and better strategems and a new FW trait that is worth taking so we can break up the Mars/Stygies monopoly.
ill just be glad to use thallax cohorts good or not. Also the big robot with the mega beam cannon can't remember it's name. They'll be fun if not competitive. Myrmidons will be the big icing on the cake for me. That said if no date is set by march I'm selling my mechanicus and going guard....might still sell everything if it is but for the big bots
Hey Gendoikari, do you like Myrmidons by chance?
And also, I feel you. I wanted to sell my Metalica army, but am going to wait for Fires too. Plus, I doubt I would get a good value on my investment (in models and painting). With AdMech being so distinctly an afterthought army though - and a profoundly boring one to play at that - I am segueing over to Eldar right now and looking to the Heresy for more options.
lol, why yes i do like myrmidons, how can you tell? Yeah it was reading about the myrmidons in Inquisitor that got me into the mechanicus... or maybe it was dark heresy... can't remember. Anyway i just thought that secutors were the coolest thing ever. They're techpriests which is cool because the omnissiah bless it's name, is the greatest thing in 40k, but they're warrior tech priests, tech priests that focus their study on warfare. they're basically sohei in the mechanicus warrior monks of knowledge and intellect, how cool is that?
So here's a question - me and my friends are enjoying the ITC rules, but what's the consensus on squad size when playing the missions? You probably don't want to max out without a Data Tether, but also you don't want to give easy points by snuffing out 5 man squads...
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: So here's a question - me and my friends are enjoying the ITC rules, but what's the consensus on squad size when playing the missions? You probably don't want to max out without a Data Tether, but also you don't want to give easy points by snuffing out 5 man squads...
You'll probably hear to take min squad no upgrades, and spend all points on robots and robots and robots.
I personally think that sounds boring and love the vanguard models and their weapons are great, so I'm using squads of 8 including 2 plasmas. This way they can't be completely ignored. It looks like a nice midground. Still cheap, but not useless forcing the opponent to make choices.
They do have the problem of mobility still though.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: So here's a question - me and my friends are enjoying the ITC rules, but what's the consensus on squad size when playing the missions? You probably don't want to max out without a Data Tether, but also you don't want to give easy points by snuffing out 5 man squads...
You'll probably hear to take min squad no upgrades, and spend all points on robots and robots and robots.
I personally think that sounds boring and love the vanguard models and their weapons are great, so I'm using squads of 8 including 2 plasmas. This way they can't be completely ignored. It looks like a nice midground. Still cheap, but not useless forcing the opponent to make choices.
They do have the problem of mobility still though.
You hear people say take min squads and a fat robot squad because that is what works best in a competitive setting. If you are just messing about with your buds at the LGS, sure - run whatever. If you are trying to actually win with a competitive Admech list, expect a very one-dimensional list because we have a very limited faction.
Counterpoint: admech has a lot going for it in ITC missions in ways that are not obvious.
5x Robots give up no secondary points 4-5x Dragoons/ballistari give up no secondary points Your infantry never give out reaper (who runs 10 man squads?) Admech HQs are hardy and not particularly numerous ESBatteries that me and Phear run give up no BGH points Admech units are generally point intensive large units ... which are great for reducing the 'kill more' primary objective
If I didn't run Celestine my standard list would be highly ITC secondary resistant. If you are serious about being competitive in ITC, then you will need to be running a 5x robot star and a 4-5x dragoon star. Both of those things are very effective in ITC.
Also stygies dragoons and dunecrawlers are pretty strong and vanguard are OK. I think you can quite comfortable take a battalion as a supplement to another faction and be very competitive without the robots
Wulfey wrote: Counterpoint: admech has a lot going for it in ITC missions in ways that are not obvious.
5x Robots give up no secondary points
4-5x Dragoons/ballistari give up no secondary points
Your infantry never give out reaper (who runs 10 man squads?)
Admech HQs are hardy and not particularly numerous
ESBatteries that me and Phear run give up no BGH points
Admech units are generally point intensive large units ... which are great for reducing the 'kill more' primary objective
If I didn't run Celestine my standard list would be highly ITC secondary resistant. If you are serious about being competitive in ITC, then you will need to be running a 5x robot star and a 4-5x dragoon star. Both of those things are very effective in ITC.
Yea, but in an area that doesn't do that silly ITC stuff like mine, AdMech will continue to fall by the wayside. C'est la vie.
Aaranis wrote: Hey guys, thought you might enjoy my latest painted models, as well as a current WIP of my Ogryns Destroyers, that will count-as Kataphron Destroyers in my future games. I'll finally get to try them for the first time this Friday against Tyranids (friendly game). C&C welcome of course.
Fulgurite Electro-Priests
Spoiler:
Sicarian Ruststalkers
Spoiler:
Onager Dunecrawler 1, Neutron Laser
Spoiler:
WIP, conversion of Ogryns to count as Kataphron Destroyers
Spoiler:
Nice. I do a sky blue and orange scheme myself. Silver/gold for the metal bits though; I'm not as bold as you are.
I'll post some pics of my Crawlers after I finish the PHEAR Earthshaker Crawler conversions. (They don't so pretty right now. I've just about decapitated them.)
Aaranis wrote: Hey guys, thought you might enjoy my latest painted models, as well as a current WIP of my Ogryns Destroyers, that will count-as Kataphron Destroyers in my future games. I'll finally get to try them for the first time this Friday against Tyranids (friendly game). C&C welcome of course.
Fulgurite Electro-Priests
Spoiler:
Sicarian Ruststalkers
Spoiler:
Onager Dunecrawler 1, Neutron Laser
Spoiler:
WIP, conversion of Ogryns to count as Kataphron Destroyers
Spoiler:
Nice. I do a sky blue and orange scheme myself. Silver/gold for the metal bits though; I'm not as bold as you are.
I'll post some pics of my Crawlers after I finish the PHEAR Earthshaker Crawler conversions. (They don't so pretty right now. I've just about decapitated them.)
Thanks ! Brass Scorpion is probably my favourite metal colour, really gives a classy steampunk vibe I feel.
I personally prefer a brighter brass, like Runelord Brass (I personally use VMC Brass). It takes on a tarnished look better after shading. Brass Scorpion comes out looking too much like copper.
Wulfey wrote: Counterpoint: admech has a lot going for it in ITC missions in ways that are not obvious.
5x Robots give up no secondary points
4-5x Dragoons/ballistari give up no secondary points
Your infantry never give out reaper (who runs 10 man squads?)
Admech HQs are hardy and not particularly numerous
ESBatteries that me and Phear run give up no BGH points
Admech units are generally point intensive large units ... which are great for reducing the 'kill more' primary objective
If I didn't run Celestine my standard list would be highly ITC secondary resistant. If you are serious about being competitive in ITC, then you will need to be running a 5x robot star and a 4-5x dragoon star. Both of those things are very effective in ITC.
When you say "5 Robot Star" - do you include Crawl in that bundle?
Wulfey wrote: Counterpoint: admech has a lot going for it in ITC missions in ways that are not obvious.
5x Robots give up no secondary points
4-5x Dragoons/ballistari give up no secondary points
Your infantry never give out reaper (who runs 10 man squads?)
Admech HQs are hardy and not particularly numerous
ESBatteries that me and Phear run give up no BGH points
Admech units are generally point intensive large units ... which are great for reducing the 'kill more' primary objective
If I didn't run Celestine my standard list would be highly ITC secondary resistant. If you are serious about being competitive in ITC, then you will need to be running a 5x robot star and a 4-5x dragoon star. Both of those things are very effective in ITC.
When you say "5 Robot Star" - do you include Crawl in that bundle?
That is presumed. 5x robot stacks are only ever plausibly brought in Cawl/MARS detachments. Cawl is a nasty point giver for KINGSLAYER in ITC. But if Cawl dies, you are pretty much tabled anyways.
gendoikari87 wrote: I prefer Bright Gold, make a candy red coat really pop. Does not photograph well though.
Spoiler:
They see me rollin, they hatin...
So shiny. It looks more like Star Wars than Warhammer 40k.
Bling bling Marsiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide. They're way shinier in person too. something about cameras doesn't capture them correctly, makes the paint look flat. in person it's a real metallic red look.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: So here's a question - me and my friends are enjoying the ITC rules, but what's the consensus on squad size when playing the missions? You probably don't want to max out without a Data Tether, but also you don't want to give easy points by snuffing out 5 man squads...
You'll probably hear to take min squad no upgrades, and spend all points on robots and robots and robots.
I personally think that sounds boring and love the vanguard models and their weapons are great, so I'm using squads of 8 including 2 plasmas. This way they can't be completely ignored. It looks like a nice midground. Still cheap, but not useless forcing the opponent to make choices.
They do have the problem of mobility still though.
You hear people say take min squads and a fat robot squad because that is what works best in a competitive setting. If you are just messing about with your buds at the LGS, sure - run whatever. If you are trying to actually win with a competitive Admech list, expect a very one-dimensional list because we have a very limited faction.
Every army's list in large tournaments is one dimensional. Usually it's 100 people all with the same 6 net lists that they just bought prepainted on eBay.
Local tournaments are more open. Vanguard are good, they won't win cheese competitions, but they're still good and fairly costed.
So I have found that my previous list has huge flaws:
1) Orders only affect Infantry. Batteries are Artillery, but not Vehicles. (Ugh...)
2) Company Commanders are very fragile, and it's easy to lose him once the closest Earthshaker dies.
3) It was pointed out to me that Enginseers and Skitarii Rangers are super expensive for CP.
Heavy Support - 810 5x Kastelan Robots - Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters, Heavy Phosphor Blasters
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Stygies VIII Outrider Detachment - 460
HQ - 52 1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1996 points 8 Command Points
Basically, a Guard Battalion supported by two large wings of AdMech: a Mars Dakkastar with two Neutron Crawlers and a Stygies Goondozer. My custom regiment is currently called Storm Pilgrims, and it uses the MT doctrine. (I am essentially using my old Skitarii Vanguard as Guard. Radium Carbines are Lasguns, Arc Rifles are Plasma Guns. I need to kitbash some Sergeants though.) The game plan is to hide the Guard in cover around objectives, then just move in range to Rapid Fire Lasguns, Plasma Guns, and Boltguns with MT doctrine within 12", which procs on 6. That or use them as sacrificial fodder. The Commanders now can hide amongst the Infantry, and I split the Warlord and the Relic, so there is now added redundancy as well.
Was really surprised (positively) by one of my Tech-Priests Dominus yesterday, in a friendly game against Salamanders. I had him equipped with the Eradication Ray, Macrostubber and gave him the Pseudogenetor to try it out. Well he killed at least 5 Scouts and 8 Marines by himself both in CC and with the Macrostubber in CC. Really pleased to see the Pseudogenetor being so nice. He also destroyed a damaged Ironclad Dreadnought in Overwatch and lost only two Wounds in all the game, which he auto-healed. The Eradication Ray really is a nice weapon, if you want to make it even better you can use the Ryza trait to take it to S7 and add +1 Damage to have an anti-tank Dominus ! But as far as Warlord traits goes, I'd never use anything else than Monitor Malevolus, this thing allowed me to keep 4 CPs in the game. We really rely on CPs with AdMech, especially if you use Elimination Volley. One Dragoon killed three Bikes in one charge too. My Snipers made the game for me, as they slayed the Warlord from across the map, allowing me to have a Draw.
I'll be playing the same list today against Tyranids. Here's the list btw:
- 2 Kastelan Robots, full Heavy Phosphor Blasters
- 1 Onager Dunecrawler, Neutron Laser & 2x Cognis Stubbers
My Vanguards got quickly obliterated because damn, flamer Bikes can go really fast. Ruststalkers didn't do anything valuable because I screwed up the Infiltration stratagem, we rolled the 1st player before I placed them so of course I could just place them wherever I wanted, I quickly realised I failed and placed them somewhere I would have placed them otherwise, but not really hidden to be fair. So they got shot to death.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: So here's a question - me and my friends are enjoying the ITC rules, but what's the consensus on squad size when playing the missions? You probably don't want to max out without a Data Tether, but also you don't want to give easy points by snuffing out 5 man squads...
You'll probably hear to take min squad no upgrades, and spend all points on robots and robots and robots.
I personally think that sounds boring and love the vanguard models and their weapons are great, so I'm using squads of 8 including 2 plasmas. This way they can't be completely ignored. It looks like a nice midground. Still cheap, but not useless forcing the opponent to make choices.
They do have the problem of mobility still though.
You hear people say take min squads and a fat robot squad because that is what works best in a competitive setting. If you are just messing about with your buds at the LGS, sure - run whatever. If you are trying to actually win with a competitive Admech list, expect a very one-dimensional list because we have a very limited faction.
Every army's list in large tournaments is one dimensional. Usually it's 100 people all with the same 6 net lists that they just bought prepainted on eBay.
Local tournaments are more open. Vanguard are good, they won't win cheese competitions, but they're still good and fairly costed.
Eh. My shops has a lot of tourney players constantly in prep for one event or another, so we usually see a lot of cheese.
Vanguard are also just not good. I have never had a single game where they performed anything beyond holding an objective out of LoS. The second someone looks at them, they evaporate. They really should have more innate morale benefits so big squads aren't a liability. Especially since you are rewarded with the extra special for max size.
AdMech reminds me of Skorne in Hordes - in that we seem to have a lot of Skornergy in our 'Dex.
Wulfey wrote: Heyyy, so I have a tournament report from SoCal open. It has gossip. Hopefully I won't get banned and this doesn't go viral beyond this thread. I ran the Celestine + Cawl + Robots + Earthshakers list. This is my effort to write up some notes. I placed 23 at 4-2 and got best admech.
For reference, here is my list again:
Spoiler:
Cawl
1x5 Kastelon
2x1 NeutrOnager
1x4 Dragoon
Celestine + Geminae
2x Astropath
1x Commisar
Company Commander CADIA 5+/5+
Master of Ordinance
29 Conscripts
3x1 Earthshaker
Opponent 1:
Justin - Inquisition / Scions / AM but no Codex goodness.
Justin went first and held his deepstrikers back. He walked towards my robots. My artillery generally killed 1 taurox a turn and my wrath of mars removed his bullgryns. Celestine and the dragoons mopped up his mobile stuff and after he dropped, each robot removed a scion team. His list ... like it just didn't work. I can't see his list doing anything at an ITC competitive event. He didn't take the 5+/5+ WLTrait/Relic and was pretty grumpy that I did. Like ... why didn't he run it? It is obviously OP. Run that shiz. This is ITC. Play fluff at the GW store where no one counts up points.
Opponent 2:
Eric - 2x Renegade knights, magnus, lord of skulls.
Eric went first, got off the 3++ power on magnus, and pushed up. His shooting wasn't that great, I think he glassed an Onager. My shooting was poor and magnus lived. His return shooting was good, he aced celestine and my dragoons. He failed to get into combat second turn thanks to celestine ressurecting in a good spot. My surviving artillery and robots tabled him on turn 3. It was a rougher game than it should have been but Cawl eventually killed a knight.
Opponent 3:
Don - 6x plague crawlers, 2x bloat drones, Mortarian, some characters.
He dropped Mortarian first right in the middle of the board. I put the robots down 36" away and I knew he didn't have warp time or a way through my screen turn 1. I luckily got first turn and aced Mortarian and a Crawler. The rest of the game was him inneficetly shelling me and killing celestine and a few dragoons while I killed a crawler a turn. Eventually celestine's second life ran up the board and aced his last character. This was by far the best showing of my list. All the elements came together to demolish what should be a devastating army. He ended up 19th, ahead of me.
Opponent 4:
Laurence - Ynnari Yncarne, Yvraine, 2x serpent tanks, 2x wrathguard shooters, a flier, terrible terrible black rocket guys
This was an extremely cagey and hard fought game. He got first turn and was able to kill 2 robots with the damn rocket guys. When I got my turn my onager aced his flier and I moved and plopped the robots and rerolled on 6s to kill the rocket guys. The rest of the game was a slow grind with him having just 2 more hold objectives than me. I ground him down to 2 models with both onagers, cawl, 2 artillery, my conscripts, and 1 psyker left. But he won on secondaries with just yncarne and a car left on turn 6 24-21. He was a great opponent, good looking, fit, drank hard, great beard, hot girlfriend who liked to party. My chick hung out with his all morning. It was cool. This was by far the most tactical and we agreed it was the best game of the tournament. It should have been streamed.
Opponent 5:
Alex - Tau, Yvara, 2 forgeworld tau tanks, longstrike, 3 commanders, some crisis, some drones.
I took way too fething long to deploy and was a slow playing bitch. He had all the tools to just kill me by turn 2. It was vanguard strike on gak terrain. So I painstakingly measured out all of his advance distances for the YVara (it can kill the robots by itself). I knew exactly the line he would need if he got a 6 on the advance and I was just over it. My conscript screen largely held and denied any crisis drops until turn 3. His YVara rolled like gak and got an onager down to 4 wounds. My robots then walked up, plopped, and deleted the YVara. MY Neutrons then picked at his tanks all game until they were gone. Celestine ran up the middle and occupied the 'ground' floor to claim the central objective. Since I could crowd that objective with bodies and be 'non-LOS' due to ITC, he was fethed on points. The game was lost since he never tried to constest the middle. I made mistakes and he wouldn't let me take them back, but by the end he had 1 suit commander left. Earthshakers are rigged, start working on yours. I went hard on this guy. It was intense. Spectators were like, this is isn't chill anymore. Both of us were red and sweating. Laurence was like, why did you not let him concede? But afterwards we were buddies for sure. He was a go hard but fair guy. He asked me on a podcast afterwards and I want to go to his store. He is largely everyone's favorite.
Opponent 6:
Adam - much better Ynnari list, 4 serpents, 4 wraithguard, Yncarne, some caster
I heard from a source that Adam was a known cheat and was 1 more complaint from getting banned. I watched his dice the whole time. He played loose with movement and wound counters and I really didn't like his face. For some reasons my robots just couldn't wound. All my shooting was gak and this guy rerolled all kinds of failed saves as cocked dice. Coldest of cold shooting the whole time. His army manages to have -1 on everything all the time. It is super lame. He is oddly hard on rules for being so loose with stuff. Since my shooting just didn't work he eventually closed on my lines and I lost. I argued him into me getting 14 points and that got me to rank 23 and best admech. I usually finish tournaments 1-5, so hey, I will take it.
Comments on the list going forwards. My list is dead. The FAQ today killed it. I also think AdMech is dead when the new Eldar codex drops. Everything about the Ynnari wraithguard list will be even more horrendous as an infilitrating, strategeming, -2 to be hit list. Unless something radically changes I don't see myself taking this army to the LVO. What would be the point? If I draw eldar I would just lose period.
Celestine: as much as she did work all the time, in ITC she gives up full points on kingslayer and headhunter (since geminae are characters) every game. She devastates certain opponents, but people who bring truly hard lists will not be phased by celestine's modest damage output. Also, since conscripts are dead, she won't have the insane synergy with her 6++, TAKE COVER, and the +1 to save psychic power.
Dragoons: I kind of expected more damage. They drew fire like crazy, which I guess is good. I was pulling them all the time. But they often lived with 1 dragoon left somewhere. Running them as Mars is easier on the points, but they truly need to be stygies to land a real punch. The other problem is that with all the -1 and -2 to hit in the game, lots of people run 'flamery' weapons that auto hit. The YVara meant my dragoons had to start way back and they eventually got killed down to 1 due to the drop melta. I guess that beats having that on the robots, but their damage just wasn't what you might think. Against a lord of skulls, or plaguecrawlers, or tau, or wraithguard, they die in overwatch. So ... several games they just had to stand there and get shot.
Robots: yeah, they do what you think. Against non-cheaty, non-wraithguard BSS these guys delete what you point at them. Rolling 90 dice volleys is exhausting and I only got through it pounding stimulants. If you run admech, run 5 robots or don't bother in competitive events. Seriously. Every admech guy at socal had 5-6. No one even tried anything else.
Onagers: yeah, excellent. Maybe take another over celestine. Not sure tho, because she does so much work to threaten, contest, and punish softer list opponents. If you bring pathfinders, or drop guys, or human sized infantry, celestine can go find those models and farm them for points. The onagers on the other hand can roll like gak and not even scratch a wave serpent.
Earthshaker batteries: I thought mine were big enough. Some bros let me know I should get bigger stakes. These guys are utter BS. And the FAQ made them -3 now. At this point, I would run 6 if I had the models. They are just BSS through and through. Also, they are great objective holders. Just plop them down and forget about it. And you can shoot at things who melee them. WTF is that? And they don't give Big Game Hunter secondaries? And they aren't 'vehicles'? THe BSS never stops with forgeworld. Run more. Make more. Craft more. Do what you have to do to get more. They are the answer to the robot weaknesses.
Conscripts/Commisar: fuq fuq fuq they are dead. Commisars are nerfed now (kill 1, reroll morale instead of pass). Imperium is now seriously hard up for screens. If I start running Stygies then I need a fat stack of support character taxes and zero-damage units. I already don't have enough points in firepower and too much in support. Rangers might be like ... no, they are a bad screen period. They are just bad at it. And they don't do any damage. I have no idea what to do about screens here. I am half tempted just to yolo it and start running earthshakers as screens. But then I would need proper dimensions on the models and I did not have proper ones even with knight sized bases. I guess we run guardsmen? Guards are dramatically less survivable than conscripts because you can't stack up to that sweet sweet 3+/4++ with celestine on a 30 wound single unit. If you run your dragoons as a screen ... uh ... I guess? But then you can't hold objectives or get into buildings or commit them to killing. Winning with the robots mean hard packing base to base on the robots. Every time I left space I started to lose. Screening the robots means base to base and deep. I don't know how to do this without conscripts.
Astropaths: mandatory. Not optional. Put 2 in right now. The 'psychic maelstrom' power is an almost consistent 3 mortal wounds. It killed magnus game 2. Always take these stupid jerks. Who cares if they give up character kills. No one takes snipers and if they are dying then you are getting tabled. Also, they are an easy 'drop' during deployment since you don't actually care where they go.
Master of Ordinance: this is the most anti-meta weirdness in my list. I put the Relic of Lost Cadia on him 2 times. It got some serious wounding off with the earthshakers and he would only get better with more earthshaker batteries. If I go to LVO, yeah, 6 Earthshakers. Run them as screens. Until then, he is gone. This is just too finicky and gimpy and requries like 10 minutes to explain to my opponent and they still don't believe it.
ALSO
Brandon Grant won. He is something of my 40k idol. He plays the dirtiest, most secretive, most perfectly to the day meta lists of all time. He won with 90 conscripts, 10 primaris psyckers, 25 scions, and 5 tauroxen. Having a few psyckers is good, having 10 means your opponent can never deny you. His list wasn't even good at the ITC secondaries. He had heaps of HeadHunter (characters), Reaper(20+ model units), and BigGameHunter (Taurox). Didn't matter. When you have 10 smites you don't care.
EDIT2:
Watch the new Eldar codex battle report. I skimmed it just to watch some clips. Dark Angels Tabled in 2 turns with Dark Angels going first. Until chapter approved comes out I don't see admech doing as well again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGo3mErmfGc
Jason! Laurence here! Great write up man - you summed up our game perfectly. It was a hell of a game and definitely worth streaming.
Also, I wouldn't worry about the new Eldar codex making Ynnari broken as you can't access the new craftworld toys/shenanigans if you go Ynnari. It's either/or
Also, I wouldn't worry about the new Eldar codex making Ynnari broken as you can't access the new craftworld toys/shenanigans if you go Ynnari. It's either/or
But you can get CWE Strategems and still use an Ynnari detachment for the SfD, meaning Webway WG Quickening into some nasty shenanigans.
Suzuteo wrote: So I have found that my previous list has huge flaws:
1) Orders only affect Infantry. Batteries are Artillery, but not Vehicles. (Ugh...)
2) Company Commanders are very fragile, and it's easy to lose him once the closest Earthshaker dies.
3) It was pointed out to me that Enginseers and Skitarii Rangers are super expensive for CP.
An improved list:
Storm Pilgrim Batt...
Yes and I can tell you much more from my games now.
A) I don't have more basilisk or earthshkers so my lists are variants with basilisk and heavy weapons team or 2* earthshkers. And I always use 3 neutronagers.
B) I found that since I use an outrider and a dakka line my stygies benefit a lot from a formation like. 1*2 balistarii lasc and 1*4+ Dragoons. My enginseer healing balistarii and of my balistarii usually screen for my earthshkers in flanks. Not only they got -1 to get hit but also shoot 48. So they become really useful. While I tend to send my Dragoons to more offensive duties . Still you can use them as fast obj. Don't forget I use one less eartshker.
C) Robots with n outrider stygies and guard infantry and or Dragoons vs heavy charging armies i found better to work in. Group of 4. I only got 4 atm and they don't limit me so much. I believe 5-6 robots are an option to use with aegis not stationary as the volume of fire is enough. While I tend to use my 4 more agreesive since I don't rely only on them.
D) atm the one less robot and earthshaker I use (and don't have) I experiement with various options. Found best to be.
1) 3rd neutronager making me a pure antitank etc. Also giving me tabling options if dice comes in favor.
2) a unit of snipers 97 points . I rolled a double 6 lsat game vs dark ngels bb lietenant. Conceded turn one.
3) 1-2 astropths. If I use a single basilisk or I'm afraid of my commander warlord (always use two) the benefits are extreme. -1 to hit on my exposed side. Or deny enemy spells or even using agreesive mortals vs easier opponent. V good and we need some Psy defence.
4) priests. My initial take was melee priests. I consider them great and provide as robots a mortal source. The only problem so far is I can't seem to put them in formations. And atm I see them as a lower point games robots. So you either go for Cawl robots. Or in lower games tpd and priests etc. You need a big unit and each buff is 3 cp . So dragoon work better with robots while priests gotta take the place of heavy cp users. Not that is bad but atm I can't seem to get a vanguard stygies going. Maybe if you took both priest variant that could work in lower point games for sure. Still I'm gotta say stygies 85 points inf 5-8 of them can do serious damage but will Ork better vs elite armies while most likely a waste v horde.
Recap. You can twik this list. Bit to get some mobility. An important rule I try to keep is troops need to be stock. Plasma mortars etc won't do nothing their role is to get ignored as they serve as antihorde = deadmeat. Move move move fall back bla bla. Anything on them is a waste. When valhala was valid a team of plasma sure but now only cadian provides for both inf and earthshkers.
P.s haven't decided yet when I use 2 x earth shakers if the third onager should be icarus seem like it for cp usage bla bla. We see so fr 3 neutronager for competitive games.
Also, I wouldn't worry about the new Eldar codex making Ynnari broken as you can't access the new craftworld toys/shenanigans if you go Ynnari. It's either/or
But you can get CWE Strategems and still use an Ynnari detachment for the SfD, meaning Webway WG Quickening into some nasty shenanigans.
Wow - yea I hadn't considered that.
Hang on, why would you even need a separate detachment to get access to that stuff? Surely they only gain the Ynnari keyword, it doesn't replace the Craftworlds keyword.
Also, I wouldn't worry about the new Eldar codex making Ynnari broken as you can't access the new craftworld toys/shenanigans if you go Ynnari. It's either/or
But you can get CWE Strategems and still use an Ynnari detachment for the SfD, meaning Webway WG Quickening into some nasty shenanigans.
Wow - yea I hadn't considered that.
Hang on, why would you even need a separate detachment to get access to that stuff? Surely they only gain the Ynnari keyword, it doesn't replace the Craftworlds keyword.
Man you've got me thinking now!
It doesn't replace it, but you lose Battle Focus and don't gain the CWE traits. You do get the CW keyword though and can be targeted by specific Strategems, which is cool. You need the separate detachment because you need a BF detachment to get access to the CWE strats, because Ynnari doesn't have it.
I am trying to ram together almost the same list for game empire next weekend. I want Stygies dragoons. I really do. But they just don't work with the CawlStar + ESBatteries battalion. You end up having to go down to like 5 starting CP to infiltrate them. And the infiltration awesomeness only actually destroys people if you get first turn ... which is not likely with your ~13 drops. This is why I am leaning towards just keeping the dragoons as mars and using them as the front rank. THis sucks against true shooting armies but against mixed armies this isn't much of a loss over the Stygies dragoons.
Also, consider replacing your second company commander with a primaris psyker. The Psyker gets you 1 deny and some possible mortal wounds.
EDIT: yes, running dragoons as auxiliary is the correct thing to do if you want Stygies. But only 3 detachments in ITC.
EDIT2: ITC is going to make Celestine be less of a terrible secondary point giveaway. So I may bring her back.
EDIT3: I think I have it. My most YOLO and META list ever. If the ITC changes go through on KINGSLAYER then I am for sure running this. If I run into a melee list, I will just put the ESBatteries in front of the robots.
Anyhow, these guys gost 40 points each. Hm. Would I want to just do two of these guys instead of a Company Commander and a Lord Commissar? My only concern is that I might be losing some of my Plasma Guns without Take Aim! spam.
Ahhhh. Right. Three detachment rule. So hard to make stuff fit.
This sacrifices some anti-tank for more CP; we will have to rely on Lasstriders (trading rerolls for the -1 to hit) and Earthshakers. To be honest, with Eldar going bike-happy and Tyranids getting a terrifying codex, Icarus Crawler might be more useful than we'd think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hm... one crazy plan that I have thought about is to add three Infantry squads and a Company Commander into the Mars detachment.
We lose:
-Mars dogma
-Guard doctrine of choice
We get:
+Mars reroll
+Mars stratagems
+Guard orders
-Guard stratagems of choice
+2 CP
Here's the crazy list:
Spoiler:
Cadian Battalion Detachment - 467
HQ - 62 1x Company Commander - Boltgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Boltgun, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila
Heavy Support - 720 4x Kastelan Robots - Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters, Heavy Phosphor Blasters
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 408
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1999 points 8 Command Points
Actually sort of works out. Three Company Commanders issuing two orders each to three Plasma Gun squads and three Lasrifle squads. Cadian so that the doctrineless dudes can still markerlight with the stratagem.
Suzuteo I considered adding non-Mechanicus units to my Mars detachment also, with the logic being that we still get Mars rerolls and Mars stratagems...
But you completely 100% lose Canticles of the Omnissiah. Sure, Canticles are mostly garbage, but having cover always comes in handy.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Watching this Tactica slowly morph into just a Guard offshoot.
It is like "What is the least AdMech I can take to allow me to take the two good unit entries from the 'Dex?"
By the end of the last thread we had a pretty good handle on what the good units were.
Cawl is worth his points PhosphorRobots are worth their points Dragoons are worth their points Neutron/Icarus are worth their points
Enginseers / Rangers are less-than-competitive tax units that are okay if run as STYGIES
The rest of the codex should only be taken strictly for fluff reasons. EDIT: I do think certain entries are at least debatable, like Destroyers/Ballistari. But they only work if you get first turn (Destroyers) or don't expect first turn charges (Ballistari). If we could make a brigade that didn't have like 400 points of tax units ... sure I could see solo admech working. The only other admechy list out there that i could see working that people aren't running right now are certain 3xEnginseer / 3x Knight lists that really work the Questor Mechanicus strategems and the ability to repair 4 wounds a turn on a knight.
EDIT: if you go back to the WARCON days, we were always a soup army. Pure admech has always point for point sucked and people have brought in various flavors of imperium to supplement them. I regard admech as a part of a broader imperium and have always like the idea of using imperial agents along with my admech. I thought that imperial index 2 was awesome. If power levels stayed at the index power levels I would have run soups from that book forever.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Watching this Tactica slowly morph into just a Guard offshoot.
It is like "What is the least AdMech I can take to allow me to take the two good unit entries from the 'Dex?"
Yeah, well.... >_>
<_<
What can we say? The Mechanicus list, aside from our Few Good Units, sucks. Unless GW gets really wild with the Chapter Approved at the end of this year, we will probably remain stagnant for quite some time.
I had a game Wednesday and took a time lapse of it. 2000p Iron Warriors vs Adeptus Mechanicus, victory to the Mechanicus after a tied game points-wise for the first 3 turns.
Loose guard doctrine I might not care much since I usually get Celestine inside greyfax etc. But the most important rule of d mech is shroudps and if you go second you vehicles need it so pick it first turn. Pick it.
As for the list building. I posted so you can see the option. Guard can use only one battalion if you take 2 heavys. And TBH two earthshkers do the job hitting los. Then you get a spearhead cause Mars reroll everything and you need at least Robots and an icarus or two full rerolling. After all Cawl works best for bs 4+ and don't forget reroll all hits.
Then it's a matter of preferrance. Stygies -2 dragoon and 2 balistarii provide the best . And that's why I insist on taking one more onager in the place of a robot or an earthshaker. Best option vs best points. Neutronager is still 10 -4 3-6 damage. You must not skip it. When you default need high hitting str weapon passing armor and doing at least min damage high enough to kill . Spend a cp etc. All got a role.
So to cut this short. 2 earthshkers
2 astropths
4 Dragoons
4 Robots
2 balistarii
2 neutron
1 icarus I can place them use them vs anything. With out wasting shots effectiveness or points. With enough screener los hitting defence and offence . You can decide to walk the Dragoons but with -2 to hit while walking. You can decide to make astropaths both mortal spams or defensive. And you can definitely use your infantry and onagers agreesive Cawl as well.
Wulfey I love Celestine but she is so alone in front that I have never played a game she didn't die. And I don't say she is not superb. She just need more support. Maybe a more flexible list some priests or as I see it working a catachan with harker priests etc list. So you know you go with flamers etc etc eventually and you can jump her maybe round two bla bla.
That's my list I know 4 robots. Might be. Little low but I can guarantee if you place your army properly enemies have a hard time playing vs you and deciding targets. So far my list tabling round one or two(concede might be the proper word)? We see how it goes but I LL say it once. If I play first with my onager able to move 8+ 48.
I LL send 4d6 keeping best rerolling ones for shakers 2-3d3 for onagers 4*lasc for balistarii and got spare dragoons. Charge stubbers troops and Robots if I need. Haven't need them till round two so I'm usually move my robot turn one wasting shots to go to position. Nothing has survived yet against it. Nothing. 1 cp inf Dragoons even 3 work to finish things of. 1 cp for +2 hit . Round two 2 cp wrath and again 1-2 cp for hitting.two rounds pure hitting . Pick rerolling ones in melee or shooting if you go first the other round two and aim for shroud on Mar gg. Astropaths + cadian ensures guard follow up ad mech hooting and defence almost the same. Good luck all lists valid accoridng to players preference.
I know bigger units can work better the cpand gems but if my enemy has 8+ cp and I got 8 to start I find 5+/5+ enough cp to play all my options. Best list so far I'm taking this the grand tour. Just w8ing the ruleset.
Here's a theorycraft for the Robots + Crawl argument..
4 Kastellans + Crawl is pretty much the same price as 5 Kastellans + Dominus.
The additional firepower from the 5th robot essentially cancels out the better re-roll from Crawl (54 vs 52.2); and having the firepower spread out over 5 Robots vs 4 means that your firebase will be much more resilient to the attention it will no doubt receive.
Plus, if you value survivability over damage - you can go Stygies for a -1 to hit them, greatly increasing their survivability, AND saving the 2 CP each volley to spent elsewhere, like say Dragoons.
4 Kastellans + Crawl is pretty much the same price as 5 Kastellans + Dominus.
The additional firepower from the 5th robot essentially cancels out the better re-roll from Crawl (54 vs 52.2); and having the firepower spread out over 5 Robots vs 4 means that your firebase will be much more resilient to the attention it will no doubt receive.
Plus, if you value survivability over damage - you can go Stygies for a -1 to hit them, greatly increasing their survivability, AND saving the 2 CP each volley to spent elsewhere, like say Dragoons.
I've thought about this a little bit and it's an interesting option.
Main problem I have with it is:
-without Cawl and Mars, we will rarely get our free Shroudpsalm cover
-Cawl is a good close combat unit, not always important, but he can punch out enemy leaders
-Wrath of Mars, while being expensive, is really really good. Like, I'd say it doubles the damage output of the unit, I don't have the math in front of me, but against harder targets that is what it feels like
-Against enemies with -1 to be hit, Cawl's re-rolls become even more valuable vs the Dominus
Upsides:
-minus one to be hit is awesome
-5 wounds worth of Robots rather than 4
-not spending CP on Wrath of Mars
The reason for Cawl being the dominant choice is that full rerolls to hit (with no blank rolls due to modifiers because Cawl just says ANY without any"failed" in the rules) is that robots are base 4+ to hit. Reroll 1s is actually half as good as Cawl on a 3+ to hit unit and if you ran some kind of mass Onager list I could actually see dipping down from Cawl and running STYGIES. But in a meta with -1 modifiers all over the place, Cawl is simply indispensable on robots. 5+ rerolling to hit due to Cawl is 55%. 5+ rerolling 1s is like 37%.
EDIT: if I actually had 6 Onagers I would seriously consider running STYGIES. But I only have 3 Onagers and 6 Robots. I am biased towards the models I have that are painted.
EDIT2: in later turns, I repeatedly was able to get useful 2x canticles for my dragoons. The +1 str and rerolling 1s in combat is a super beefy combo on the dragoons.
Has anyone tried nothing but bots and onagers since the dex dropped.? in 2000 you can fit 12 bots in units of six taking agrapinaa that's a metric crapton of T7 wounds to get through with shooting. before the dex super bot heavy might have been a bad idea but with agrapinaa not much is going to be able to charge 4-5 bots which turns the whole game into a shooting match. and who wins the shooting match.?... well as long as the other guy isn't guard.
Wulfey wrote: The reason for Cawl being the dominant choice is that full rerolls to hit (with no blank rolls due to modifiers because Cawl just says ANY without any"failed" in the rules) is that robots are base 4+ to hit. Reroll 1s is actually half as good as Cawl on a 3+ to hit unit and if you ran some kind of mass Onager list I could actually see dipping down from Cawl and running STYGIES. But in a meta with -1 modifiers all over the place, Cawl is simply indispensable on robots. 5+ rerolling to hit due to Cawl is 55%. 5+ rerolling 1s is like 37%.
EDIT: if I actually had 6 Onagers I would seriously consider running STYGIES. But I only have 3 Onagers and 6 Robots. I am biased towards the models I have that are painted.
EDIT2: in later turns, I repeatedly was able to get useful 2x canticles for my dragoons. The +1 str and rerolling 1s in combat is a super beefy combo on the dragoons.
I feel that you need the Mars reroll for Icarus Crawlers. They just don't perform very well without it. Neutron Crawlers do well in Stygies, since they are tasked with trading with vehicles whose best weapon is typically a Lascannon. Most of a Neutron Crawler's variability actually comes from shot volume anyway; they have high strength and AP, consistent 3+ BS, and min 3 damage, so rerolling 1s is fine.
I've tried the Icarus crawler a couple times, and been generally disappointed with it. Now that Eldar are a big thing though, they might become worthwhile. It does suck though that a Wave Serpent will reduce the autocannon component of the gun from damage 2 to 1.
They still deal comparable damage when compared to Neutron Crawlers. Really, the only things I would prefer to have Neutrons for are super-heavies like Knights and Baneblades. And Leman Russes, which can also be handled by Dragoons.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Watching this Tactica slowly morph into just a Guard offshoot.
It is like "What is the least AdMech I can take to allow me to take the two good unit entries from the 'Dex?"
Yep, since about page 3 it's been all Guard tactics. It's garbage. But that's the tournament scene for you, it eventually boils down to everyone spamming whatever is currently considered the one "best" unit with no tactics and declaring anything other than that one unit "useless." And if anything gets balanced they decry "the army is dead!" why I avoid try hards.
The issue is the codex didn't fix anything. GK is almost as bad as we are, but not as worse off because at least if their Warlord dies the army isn't neutered.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Watching this Tactica slowly morph into just a Guard offshoot.
It is like "What is the least AdMech I can take to allow me to take the two good unit entries from the 'Dex?"
Yep, since about page 3 it's been all Guard tactics. It's garbage. But that's the tournament scene for you, it eventually boils down to everyone spamming whatever is currently considered the one "best" unit with no tactics and declaring anything other than that one unit "useless." And if anything gets balanced they decry "the army is dead!" why I avoid try hards.
Most of the lists here are still 2/3s AdMech. People are simply splicing Guard in to optimize their lists because Guard is good at things that AdMech is bad at and vice versa. Specifically, troops, an OPCP recycling trait and relic, psykers, and indirect artillery from Guard and direct artillery and skirmishers from AdMech.
I actually think the hybrid lists are way more complicated and less spammy than AdMech.
Played my 1500 pts list the other day against Tyranids and it was a borderline tabling for him, but he will be better next time now that he knows what is menacing in my army. I'm really satisfied of the Kataphrogryns so far, they've proven to be a reliable source of destruction over these two games. I think people will know to shoot them from now on, however. News flash: Sicarian Infiltrators with Flechette blasters are still the number one T3 hordes eradicator unit. Killed 20 Gaunts in one volley + morale loss (no synapse. However this may surprise you but charging a Carnifex with a Dominus and his 6 Vanguards doesn't end well for the Priest and his retinue
Zalek wrote: How has everyones experience with Transuranic arquebus rangers been?
They look good on paper and there are lots of characters in my play group but I didn't manage to figure out the right number.
Mine haven't done much damage at all really as they seem to be a bad dice magnet, but their perceived threat does seem to be quite good at forcing things to try and avoid them. Not sure if the cost is worth the distraction they cause though.
Zalek wrote: How has everyones experience with Transuranic arquebus rangers been?
They look good on paper and there are lots of characters in my play group but I didn't manage to figure out the right number.
Mine haven't done much damage at all really as they seem to be a bad dice magnet, but their perceived threat does seem to be quite good at forcing things to try and avoid them. Not sure if the cost is worth the distraction they cause though.
They are very nice in what they do but they are overpriced for the number you need to reliably snipe characters
Tried the 5 eatthshakers against the Alaitoc Scorpion II this weekend, any fewer than 5 and there is definitely no way I could have killed it. Barely got it down end of turn 3 shooting literally my entire everything at it.
ph34r wrote: Tried the 5 eatthshakers against the Alaitoc Scorpion II this weekend, any fewer than 5 and there is definitely no way I could have killed it. Barely got it down end of turn 3 shooting literally my entire everything at it.
Were you running any Crawlers? This is another case where Icarus shines, as it has a distinct advantage against flying with an invulnerable save. (Neutron is 52.49 points per wound against a Scorpion; Icarus is 45.39 points.)
Anyhow, stuff like this is why I actually think having one cheapo Knight Crusader might be competitive if the meta shifts aggressively towards hordes. We can repair one for 4 wounds per turn and give it a perpetual 4++, meaning if we can shut down the enemy's anti-tank, it will essentially wreak havoc forever. (However, a Knight Warden might be preferred against other Knights and such.)
I was running 2-3 icarus so far. From 7th till now.
Icarus gives a better hit and ad mech has gems and Cawl to help hit. Icarus -1-2 AP shots have a 1-3 damage average success. While neutron -4 pass through any number of units. A failed save vs a neutron and I usually shoot chars as well means 3-6 min damage. Yes I have now 2neutron 1 icarus cause of earths and balistarii -10 points and a way to spend less cp. If you need more dakka on fliers etc neutron will deliver if you need more heavy shooting str 7 icarus won't. And atm if I really need something dead I'd prefer to wrath of mars a model that icarus.
The fact that icarus must shoot all weapons at one Target. The fact that -2 AP is str 6 and that the 2 damage shots are -1 AP does not make icarus par with neutron. It's different it's still one of the best ant air but it's not the superb choise. 2-3 neutronagers then 1 icarus. Or if you got enough antitank two icarus. Don't take solo onagers .
Imperium fluff is all about soup. And atm is not
Possible for all armies to have all options! Ad mech is a fairly new army. We miss a lot of utility. If you just wanna make a list saying you wanna play solo ad mech try 1500. As we grow in points other armies will get all options in table and you can't. Wanna have fun sure I'm with you but you miss so many aspects of the tactis to face effectively all armies. Either you make list custom vs every enemy or you decide you LL go with handicap.
Ad mech and guard does not guarantee a win. You just gonna have less handicap. Does not mean it became complete.
Snipers I love them but. Points are limited. Atm i struggle to keep them. I still got 97 points 5 man 2 snipers omnispex in my list.
Not sure they can perform like when I have two groups but so far all games one group dies fast. So I end up with one. Stygies to get them a -1 and usually guarding my back sides from deep strikes. 30 range shoot in my front lines vs hordes snipers ensure tactical disadvantage for my opponents. Rolled 2 x6 last game killed a guard priest and a commisar in tow rounds then forced his commander to stay hidden LL game.
So I was working on a guard list and noticed just how similar the skitarii are to the scions. Point and stat wise extremely similar. Both can take twin plasma per 5 man squad t3 bs 3+ with 4+..... but they get transports and deepstrike.... also flamers.... and they look more mechanicus than guard too
Yeah. Love using Skitarii as Guard and Scions. The natural division between Vanguard and Ranger helps if you run both (or Guard and Veterans). I also got some Secutarii.
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah. Love using Skitarii as Guard and Scions. The natural division between Vanguard and Ranger helps if you run both (or Guard and Veterans). I also got some Secutarii.
ph34r wrote: Tried the 5 eatthshakers against the Alaitoc Scorpion II this weekend, any fewer than 5 and there is definitely no way I could have killed it. Barely got it down end of turn 3 shooting literally my entire everything at it.
Were you running any Crawlers? This is another case where Icarus shines, as it has a distinct advantage against flying with an invulnerable save. (Neutron is 52.49 points per wound against a Scorpion; Icarus is 45.39 points.)
2 Neutron Crawlers, one was lucky to live through turn 1, spent a lot of CP getting them to not have awful hit chances due to crippling and Alaitoc trait. Worth it though.
ph34r wrote: Tried the 5 eatthshakers against the Alaitoc Scorpion II this weekend, any fewer than 5 and there is definitely no way I could have killed it. Barely got it down end of turn 3 shooting literally my entire everything at it.
Were you running any Crawlers? This is another case where Icarus shines, as it has a distinct advantage against flying with an invulnerable save. (Neutron is 52.49 points per wound against a Scorpion; Icarus is 45.39 points.)
2 Neutron Crawlers, one was lucky to live through turn 1, spent a lot of CP getting them to not have awful hit chances due to crippling and Alaitoc trait. Worth it though.
For the ignorant, what is the crippling? Alaitoc trait is basically Eldar Stygies?
Also, what's the consensus on Destroyers for Stygies? Interesting 2CP paring with Robots for both to have +1 to hit for both - with a Dominus basically swapping out the devastating firepower of Mars Mortal Wounds for something more survivable, and cheaper.
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah. Love using Skitarii as Guard and Scions. The natural division between Vanguard and Ranger helps if you run both (or Guard and Veterans). I also got some Secutarii.
I do need to make some dedicated officers though.
you can use tech priests for that or data smiths
Not sure if Omnissian Axes could pass for Bolters and Chainswords. =\
ph34r wrote: Tried the 5 eatthshakers against the Alaitoc Scorpion II this weekend, any fewer than 5 and there is definitely no way I could have killed it. Barely got it down end of turn 3 shooting literally my entire everything at it.
Were you running any Crawlers? This is another case where Icarus shines, as it has a distinct advantage against flying with an invulnerable save. (Neutron is 52.49 points per wound against a Scorpion; Icarus is 45.39 points.)
2 Neutron Crawlers, one was lucky to live through turn 1, spent a lot of CP getting them to not have awful hit chances due to crippling and Alaitoc trait. Worth it though.
For the ignorant, what is the crippling? Alaitoc trait is basically Eldar Stygies?
Also, what's the consensus on Destroyers for Stygies? Interesting 2CP paring with Robots for both to have +1 to hit for both - with a Dominus basically swapping out the devastating firepower of Mars Mortal Wounds for something more survivable, and cheaper.
He means lost stats due to the damage table.
Not sure if it is cheaper... but I can run the numbers tonight on that. It's not unlike running Grav Destroyers with Bunkers.
Their unique infiltration stratagem is really helpful too, it can help you place a Vanguard unit in a good spot, use melee Kastelans effectively or, in the case of your list, place Dragoons in a position from which they can charge turn 1, forming a distraction unit that is both somewhat durable and really powerful. Present this threat to your opponent early on and he'll focus those instead of your more important units. If he doesn't he's about to discover what a dozen S8 hits can do to an army.
Thanks! Not quite as straight forward as I thought.
it has the cult mechanicus keyword, so if you wanted to be pure cult you could still use them as elites.
