Oh i'm one step ahead of you arm them with power swords (the omnissian axe) and mount thebolter on the shoulder. like a predators gun. the tech priest 2 even has a perfect place to do it where the light thingy is
IMPERIUM Vanguard Celestine/Geminae + 3x1 Astropaths [all maelstrom]
CADIAN Spearhead Company Commander (5+/5+) + 3x1 ESBattery
I think this list should play faster than my previous list since it has less unit variety. I have a lot less screen (no conscripts), but I am planning on just using the batteries and the dragoons as anti melee or anti deepstrike screens. I can't deepstrike the dragoons so their offense isn't that great, but I am imagining them as more defense. When they made it across the board they tended to die, but I could see them as great units for receiving a charge. Recent changes to ITC should make Celestine less costly to play ... but even if they don't go through I really value Celestine's distraction and character killing power. This list is 2000 points on the nose.
EDIT: my thinking is, if I didn't have celestine I could either have (1) some troops (guards or rangers) and 2 more CP, (2) some deep striking elysians. (1) I feel like the troops are at best a screen, but are otherwise not going to do any damage. (2) Elysians have serious weaknesses in ITC and versus good players. Good players will space their good stuff so you can't deepstrike within 12", and the turn after you good deepstrike turn, all the Elysians die and your opponent pulls ahead on the score tally. Celestine keeps being a pain in the ass all game against most lists. She is kind of junk against the 400-500 point lord of war nonsense some people bring, but I think the way to run her against those things is simply to go take objectives and kill the weak units away from the lords of war. The (1) troops are just fodder for lords of war. The (2) Elysians can sometimes ace a lord of war, but are feed if you roll badly or if someone puts mortarian behind 4" of screening units or gets off the -1 to hit power. EDIT2: also, every tournament where i have won more games than I lost ... I had celestine. I don't think it is a coincidence.
EDIT3: what is really eating the conscript points is that Icarus Dunecrawler. I really wanted it to be a neutron but that last 10 points is killer. Overall I expect the dunecrawler to do better than the 30 conscripts + Commisar. They were kinda cool at wasting game time and delaying deepstrikes. They would really help against deepstriking swarmlords ... hmmm.
IMPERIUM Vanguard
Celestine/Geminae + 3x1 Astropaths [all maelstrom]
CADIAN Spearhead
Company Commander (5+/5+) + 3x1 ESBattery
I think this list should play faster than my previous list since it has less unit variety. I have a lot less screen (no conscripts), but I am planning on just using the batteries and the dragoons as anti melee or anti deepstrike screens. I can't deepstrike the dragoons so their offense isn't that great, but I am imagining them as more defense. When they made it across the board they tended to die, but I could see them as great units for receiving a charge. Recent changes to ITC should make Celestine less costly to play ... but even if they don't go through I really value Celestine's distraction and character killing power. This list is 2000 points on the nose.
EDIT: my thinking is, if I didn't have celestine I could either have (1) some troops (guards or rangers) and 2 more CP, (2) some deep striking elysians. (1) I feel like the troops are at best a screen, but are otherwise not going to do any damage. (2) Elysians have serious weaknesses in ITC and versus good players. Good players will space their good stuff so you can't deepstrike within 12", and the turn after you good deepstrike turn, all the Elysians die and your opponent pulls ahead on the score tally. Celestine keeps being a pain in the ass all game against most lists. She is kind of junk against the 400-500 point lord of war nonsense some people bring, but I think the way to run her against those things is simply to go take objectives and kill the weak units away from the lords of war. The (1) troops are just fodder for lords of war. The (2) Elysians can sometimes ace a lord of war, but are feed if you roll badly or if someone puts mortarian behind 4" of screening units or gets off the -1 to hit power. EDIT2: also, every tournament where i have won more games than I lost ... I had celestine. I don't think it is a coincidence.
EDIT3: what is really eating the conscript points is that Icarus Dunecrawler. I really wanted it to be a neutron but that last 10 points is killer. Overall I expect the dunecrawler to do better than the 30 conscripts + Commisar. They were kinda cool at wasting game time and delaying deepstrikes. They would really help against deepstriking swarmlords ... hmmm.
Sorry but. I don't like the list for new missions. Going second will hurt you a lot. And we mitigate that with stygies. If was looking for mortals I would take staff priests not so many Astropaths. And you have crippled the list. Can't win vs mobile armies can't win vs horde armies can't win vs heavy melee alpha.
Guard first rank second rank provide battalion +3 cp troops screener etc. Won't waste cp for a spearhead guard.
Earthshkers are good not best they provide los shooting not best shooting. Cadian reroll ones fits better and two of them with two neutronagers work fine.
Celestine cost 200 points and a detachment. I prefer stygies outrider for balistarii 2* lasc and screener for my robots and 48 range next to them. While 270+ cost of 4 infiltrating Dragoons worth every single point -2 to hit is just incredible and sure better then Celestine. 1 cp buff amazing. Tar pit screener distraction shooting magnet you name it. Moving 10.
And I also use snipers . Killing a liutenant denied my enemy rerolling all wounds. That can't be said with points. Same for Dragoons. Troops cost 40 die for the rest to live and provide antihorde. We played with 5 neutron pre codex it's nice but won't win. Same goes for this list. Its extremely stationary. Celestine won't do the warlord kill. Dragoons might with dice numbers. -2 to hit Dragoons -1 to hit balistarii and my snipers 30 guard troops you just can't shoot nothing effectively even with deep strike even when you play second.
Your list going second is dead. And that's the deal. What harassment you LL provide so my enemy has to decide not to shoot my Robots. There is nothing better than Robots with wrath of mars in game atm. So the rest of my army need to to serious issues. Snipers do guard troops do. Earthaker do onager do Dragoons do balistarii do. You just can't deal with it. Celestine and astropaths don't worth the limited detachments. Atm. Spearhead guard not as good as Cawl onagers . Guard best troops some support ad mech leading. And if you continue to rely on guard and Celestine so much you LL struggle soon.
And yes Celestine is broken it's just not worth to sacrifice a detachment for her and 3 astropaths as I see the meta. Heavy tank elite or heavy horde. In between is weak so far.
You going on a tour . Stygies can give an option if you want to infiltrate .if. but with out it you won't be able to go anywhere . In corner you LL stay. Vs deep strike vs inf vs mobile vs melee vs every single enemy you LL have to stay back so you won't loose shooting. A smart cyber wolf will tie your robots for two rounds and gg 15 points. My Dragoons will tie your shooting for 2 rounds even. An assassin will for two rounds. There is no hope with zero deep strike and so low screener. Is one thing to decide to keep dragons behind cause enemy heavy melee another to run them up the field .
My thinking on going second is that if I am going admech, I can't actually mitigate my opponent deciding to shoot my robots. My list as written is supposed to give other targets for my opponent to distract from the robots. Here is what my opponent can shoot if he gets first turn:
ESBatteries, 3x80 points T7/7W/4+ Dragoons, ~260 points T6/6W/3+/6++ -1 to hit Crawlers, 140 points T7/11W/2+/5++ Robots, 550 points T7/6W/2+/4++
What else could i possibly put on the board that would draw more fire from the robots? The idea is to give my opponent nothing but tanky targets with the robots being the tankiest. I could actually see dropping the icarus and running 20 conscripts as a suicide screen that only lasts 1 turn and adding an eversor in place of the third astropath. For instance, I could turn the Icarus 130 points and 1 astropath into:
10x1 guardsmen to space out deepstrikers Elysian commander with plasma pistol Elysia, commands squad with 3 plasma, 1 melta
This screens a little better that the icarus since I don't care if the guardsmen get meleed. And the deepstrikers might do as much damage on 1 turn what the icarus does in 2 turns. But is this really better? The guards and elysians have frustrating rules and slow the game down. The Icarus has a huge base which hardcore baseblocks something that wants to get my robots. EDIT: also, the icarus screens fast, high model count units in a way that conscripts would only end up being a bonus movement and consolidation. Guants, space marines, eldars, all those T3-4 melee units have a harder time than they should taking down T7, 3+/5++
What I do accept from your argument is that more dragoons would be better. If the icarus was turned into 2 more dragoons, my screen would be better. But that is another 100$ and a solid 10 hours of hobby work.
EDIT2: alright, I just got a big clarification from Pablo at ITC about celestine + geminae. Cel+Gem is guaranteed 2 max secondaries (headhunter + kingslayer) and gives up a 'kill' when she goes down with no geminae and gets back up on 2+. This means that if I bring her, I have to play to table my opponent. She throws all close games in ITC due to secondaries. grrrr . Now I have to rethink Celestine ...
I have had a bad time with Elysians in ITC. I think they let you stomp opponents you would otherwise beat but throw the game versus a properly screened and -1 to hitted competitive army. But I also think the FLG/ITC guys really don't want me using Celestine + Geminae. She carried me through some games, but maybe pure dakka is just the way to go. If I was going to run Elysians, it would look like this. But Elysians did me bad last time I tried them.
MARS Spearhead Cawl (I put him in front of robots, better to melee) + 3x1 Neutrons (surround robot flanks) + 1x5 Robots + 1x4 Dragoons (pure screen, not offense, babysits robots all game)
ELYSIAN vanguard 2x ElyCommanders with plasma pistols + 2x ElyPlasmaCom teams with 4x plasma, + 2x Astropaths (for denies)
CADIAN Spearhead 1x Commander (5/5) + 3x1 ESBattery (spaced 15" around robots to block deepstrike)
Hmmm ... yeah ... this list ... seems very good. 3BGH points on hard targets, I am giving up 2x easy headhunter with the Elysians but that is less than Celestine, and I risk losing "kill more" cause the Elysians, but my Kingslayer is only Cawl and he is only dies on a tabling. And I get 6 easy 'drops' during deployment before I have to start putting things down that matter.
I mean that Cawl plus Kastelans may be cheaper in terms of points per wounds against most targets than an equivalent number of points of Dominus, Kastelans, and Destroyers, especially with Wrath of Mars being so terrifyingly good against stuff like Daemon Primarchs.
Wulfey wrote: My thinking on going second is that if I am going admech, I can't actually mitigate my opponent deciding to shoot my robots. My list as written is supposed to give other targets for my opponent to distract from the robots. Here is what my opponent can shoot if he gets first turn:
ESBatteries, 3x80 points T7/7W/4+
Dragoons, ~260 points T6/6W/3+/6++ -1 to hit
Crawlers, 140 points T7/11W/2+/5++
Robots, 550 points T7/6W/2+/4++
What else could i possibly put on the board that would draw more fire from the robots? The idea is to give my opponent nothing but tanky targets with the robots being the tankiest. I could actually see dropping the icarus and running 20 conscripts as a suicide screen that only lasts 1 turn and adding an eversor in place of the third astropath. For instance, I could turn the Icarus 130 points and 1 astropath into:
10x1 guardsmen to space out deepstrikers
Elysian commander with plasma pistol
Elysia, commands squad with 3 plasma, 1 melta
This screens a little better that the icarus since I don't care if the guardsmen get meleed. And the deepstrikers might do as much damage on 1 turn what the icarus does in 2 turns. But is this really better? The guards and elysians have frustrating rules and slow the game down. The Icarus has a huge base which hardcore baseblocks something that wants to get my robots. EDIT: also, the icarus screens fast, high model count units in a way that conscripts would only end up being a bonus movement and consolidation. Guants, space marines, eldars, all those T3-4 melee units have a harder time than they should taking down T7, 3+/5++
What I do accept from your argument is that more dragoons would be better. If the icarus was turned into 2 more dragoons, my screen would be better. But that is another 100$ and a solid 10 hours of hobby work.
EDIT2: alright, I just got a big clarification from Pablo at ITC about celestine + geminae. Cel+Gem is guaranteed 2 max secondaries (headhunter + kingslayer) and gives up a 'kill' when she goes down with no geminae and gets back up on 2+. This means that if I bring her, I have to play to table my opponent. She throws all close games in ITC due to secondaries. grrrr . Now I have to rethink Celestine ...
You can't stop people from CHOOSING to shoot the Kastelans. However, you can actually stop them from being able to do so on turn one if you go second by deploying them last and behind cover. You can also use Dragoons to tie up enemy shooting.
Most battles are decided in deployment and the first three turns, which is why I think these lists are not as good as your previous ones. You need to focus on minimizing your opponent's options rather than crafting the perfect defensive scenario, which you will never be able to do because good opponents won't let you. Set up right, deploy the least threatening stuff first, creating lots of depth between you and your opponent, keep the threats in reserve to keep them paranoid--it's the only real advantage to having a larger army.
4x Dragoons is fine. Personally, I am skeptical of these 6x Dragoon units, though I am willing to give it a try; I prefer 4x for perfect pile-in, though I do concede that redundancy is nice if you are going to be relying on them for longterm damage. Anyhow, they need to be Stygies. -2 to hit is a huge deal. Infiltration is a huge deal. Giving them a Mars buff is nice and all, but it doesn't compare at all. I mean, if they're doing their job right, they will all be dead really fast, but they will buy you critical time and wreck a vehicle and make some plasma explode in the process. (Besides, if you're okay with 6 CP anyway, why not have the flexibility?)
Exactly stygies infiltration I use only 3 Dragoons. Since I got 5 and I use outrider. But those Dragoons infiltrating must be dealt from my enemy or they create tons of issues. And tbh any army if they let me shoot two round I'm fine. Robots got aegis. 3*10 troop don't care if they die. Balistarii got -1 hit are lascannons are on sides of my Robots and must be dealt cause they are 48" . Ame goes for my snipers backline side -1 and ofc I always choose shroud if I go second. We can still choose. Not to mention I can choose reroll hit rolls of one in melee when dragoon go in for a devastating result.
And it's not the most important issue. Most important is to take battalion guard. +3 cp 3 troops 2 heavy. Is the way to go for me. I need cp . I prefer to have options like infiltrating snipers if I need a second wrath of mars etc. I even consider exploding Dragoons inside enemy lines but usually I need to reroll some dice for onager wounding.
There is no reason not to have one guard detachment. If you now believe you must have 3 shakers whatever the cost go for it but...
I didn't like balistarii nor outrider nor an enginseer tax. But it's not bad to have healing for balistarii and or shkers. If I'm correct you suggested a unit of balistarii 4+ to buff and from there the outrider was emerged. What better way to play ad mech. Two twin lasc. With -1 for screener after guard troops with range to protect Robots it's ideal. And I repeat it cause their 48 range ensures outranged robots issue. Like 2 enemy onager list trying to out range you etc.
Two company commanders a) no points b) one is in front giving order to troops while my warlord is hidding.
As for Celestine. I trade Celestine for 3 Dragoons any day after some games. She is not for my lists. For various reasons. I know she rocks but you LL need to get a list bit towards her. Catachan rushers assassin's etc. You can't have her jumping 24 with no assassin's . There are so many combinations inside enemy lines to kill her. Her purpose is to work with assassin's and create havoc. Till you rest of the plan evolves. I don't care for that.
I got prolly best shooting and best defence for robots vehicles in game. And I just need
A) enough survive to be able to shoot two-three rounds .enough screener so I don't get tight up. And a distraction so my enemy can't focus move take over the map all rounds.
Elysians ok better than the other list. Just found cadian work better for my troops and earthshkers and Dragoons synergise tons better and faster. Balistarii as well. And since we I'mad mech I'd prefer it.
Stygies infiltrations(you can even info balistarii) . Astropaths skills and placement are weapons. If you are allowed you can have table control round one.
I just try to share my experience not convince none how to play. Thats what I found working for me better not that you won t have a blast with Celestine or 3 shakers or dunno. I got the same list with a graia battalion and troops stock just I need ad mech only works fine for a semi game. No earthshkers but more snipers more healing etc. Try it it's fun.
P.s even if I decided to run 3+3 heavys onagers and earth. I d prefer two earthshkers 2 neutron with dominus stugia and two icarus for Mars. Not three and three . Why cause it would be. Stationary dakka line so I d need to be able to split them in aLL deployment zone to have options not to loose vs a melee army....foundamentals in deploy and list build.
And as for surviving. It's all a matter how long you d keep Robots in aegis. You can't have better than aegis shroud defence for 110 points. What we talking is how long you would keep aegis on till you get in position or kill enough enemies or get in range bla bla. And how you'd force enemy to focus other units. Even if they focus robots with this list there are enough dakka to finish your enemy off.
So, the strategm: "Select an AdMech infantry unit from your army within 3‘‘ of an objective marker. Until the start of your next turn add +1 to all saving throws for that unit and increase Attacks for all models in that unit by 1"
I Does the 'saving throw' include invulnerable saving throws? I assume it does - normally they refer to 'Armour saving throws'
LexOdin9 wrote: Are we going to get the Sisters treatment and not get any models for a few years?
No new plastic kits until 9th. Maybe some weapon addons in resin for resin models (that don't have 8th rules until mid 2018)
Can 9th like not be a thing? i feel like 8th kinda finally hit it out of the park. at the very least can we keep vehicles not having firing arcs or armor zones, keep the wounds and never have to worry about exactly which way the scatter dice are pointing or what counts as being under the template?
U02dah4 wrote: Except the lack or template weapons make infantry to good and the lack of positioning being important is one of the worst things in 8th
Arguing about templates and moving each squad slowly with 2" spacing is something I am not going to miss.
Plus small blasts were so bad to begin with that a D3 being lackluster actually shows off how bad those weapons were to begin with.
yup. Also the damage system makes SOOOOOOOOO much more sense then the old instant death rule. " you telling me your 4 wound human just ate 3 30mm autocannon rounds and walked off"
lascannons and especially autocannons now feel as dangerous as they should be.
LexOdin9 wrote: Are we going to get the Sisters treatment and not get any models for a few years?
No new plastic kits until 9th. Maybe some weapon addons in resin for resin models (that don't have 8th rules until mid 2018)
Can 9th like not be a thing? i feel like 8th kinda finally hit it out of the park. at the very least can we keep vehicles not having firing arcs or armor zones, keep the wounds and never have to worry about exactly which way the scatter dice are pointing or what counts as being under the template?
Practically every other edition after 3rd was essentially a refinement of the previous edition rather than an overhaul. (I mean, GW gotta sell more codexes.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ph34r
I got my Quantum Cannons in the mail today. These things are full resin. Very heavy. And they got a lot of mould lines and some misalignment. Going to need crazy prep work. T_T
You're right. Forget the even and odd numbers. My point is that they do these overhauls once and awhile, then refine it in the next edition.
I like 8E a lot though. I do think the character rules, LOS, keyword usage, and starting turn order needs to be worked on, but getting rid of templates, toughness tables, damage states, and USRs is super helpful for newbies.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: So, the strategm: "Select an AdMech infantry unit from your army within 3‘‘ of an objective marker. Until the start of your next turn add +1 to all saving throws for that unit and increase Attacks for all models in that unit by 1"
I Does the 'saving throw' include invulnerable saving throws? I assume it does - normally they refer to 'Armour saving throws'
Interesting if you could get close enough to an objective to do this on the offense. Unit Infiltrators or priests with +1 attack and better saves. Yes please!
Squad of priests with a 2++/4++ save and 3 attacks each
Argh, I like the idea of having a unit of 3 Kataphron Destroyers - but it feels like they'd just be blasted off the board turn 1.. does anyone have any experience in using them?
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Argh, I like the idea of having a unit of 3 Kataphron Destroyers - but it feels like they'd just be blasted off the board turn 1.. does anyone have any experience in using them?
Hey I did for my two last casual games. My list turned out much stronger than I expected (posted it a bit earlier, 1500 pts) and the Kataphron weren't disappointing. But it's important to know my two opponents didn't know quite well the army and learned what to focus next time (so, the Robots, the Onager and the Kataphrons). With the Elimination Volley stratagem they can be really nasty, I killed some Carnifexes with them and it was such an overkill I felt bad to totally annihilate my opponent (and he was a beginner at that, but he tried to tailor against me shamelessly so too bad I guess). I wouldn't take more than three though, they're costly and have to be played near Robots and at least a Dominus for some re-rolls, and use the stratagem when you REALLY need something destroyed.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Argh, I like the idea of having a unit of 3 Kataphron Destroyers - but it feels like they'd just be blasted off the board turn 1.. does anyone have any experience in using them?
They can move and fire with no penalty so even without spending cp to infiltrate or teleport them you can just stick them behind the largest bit of scenery you’re not already hiding your dunecrawler behind lol.
I also like the idea, though I’m not keen on the models myself. I’m looking forward to kitbashing some when they become more viable. What I was tempted with for a while was a squad of breaches with torsion cannons; short range blasty punchy goodness. But torsion cannons are way overpriced at the moment, hopefully chapter approved can do something about that.
Biggest issue I have with all of the non skitarii units bar priests is their 4+ BS but low shot count that normally compensates for it. I feel I’m just spoilt by dunecrawler efficiency for long range firepower. Kastellans make up for it with more shots, kataphrons don’t quite get that balance right.
I still feel that all types of servitor should get an aura bonus from a tech priest keyword character to improve their abilities via mind lock. We don’t take servitors because they’re not a stand out unit. They’re expensive, they’re not as hardy as robots despite being less skilled. They don’t have any leadership shenanigans despite being barely human and pretty much should be very resistant to morale damages. And their ability to stay alive is less than stellar.
Weapons wise the plasma culverin is an improved plasma cannon with an improved points cost, about the only well balanced weapon the kataphrons have though I’m still not sure the extra 6 points we pay over the marine equiavalent is with the d6 shots over d3. Expensive. The grav cannon is a perfect balance of shots and penetration with low strength but hugely expensive. The heavy arc rifle took a massive points cut in the codex but low number of shots and low strength means it doesn’t really have much of a role to play, in 7th arc rifles made penetrating vehicles easier, now they’re monumentally worse at it, but do potentially more damage (read: not enough) when they do. And finally the torsion cannon is a pseudo-wraith cannon but at 50% more cost on a model that’s 50% more cost aka too expensive. See the theme? :-)
I love the idea of kataphrons, but it almost feels like, at the risk of reducing our available model count further, we only needed one of those data sheets but all the options of both. They should benefit from a nearby tech priest and they should be cheaper. I want to take them, but balistarii fill their role of secondary mobile artillery much better imo.
Point for point kataphron destroyers are efficient at shooting. I know the math is out there somewhere, but they shoot well enough if they are babysat by Cawl. Never run them outside of mars tho, that 4+ to hit is horrendous. The problem is they are laughably easy to kill using ranged weapons and they fold worse than eldar in assault. I expect chapter approved to drop their base costs by 15 points in line with the drop in costs for inceptors.
Wulfey wrote: Point for point kataphron destroyers are efficient at shooting. I know the math is out there somewhere, but they shoot well enough if they are babysat by Cawl. Never run them outside of mars tho, that 4+ to hit is horrendous. The problem is they are laughably easy to kill using ranged weapons and they fold worse than eldar in assault. I expect chapter approved to drop their base costs by 15 points in line with the drop in costs for inceptors.
unfortunately that wourld require GW to pay attention to the mechanicus section when they're writing it instead of copy and pasting again.
gendoikari87 wrote: D3 plasma cannons average 2 shots, d6 averages 3.5, it's close to being 2 plasma cannons.
But could quite easily still be 1 shot.
D6 shots always worries me, regardless of averages. I’d rather take 2d3 or a straight 3 than d6 any day. I accept d3 on a neutron laser because I know if that 1 shot gets through there’s a good chance I’m doing at least 3 dmg to something. 1 shot of plasma feels great because it’s good str and ap mean there’s a good chance you’ll wound your target, until you remember it’s still only doing 1 dmg and that that’s why you needed more shots. To make it worth it.
I just don’t like the inconsistency; The gap between 1 and 6 feels huge (that’s what she said) plasma.
Wulfey wrote: Point for point kataphron destroyers are efficient at shooting. I know the math is out there somewhere, but they shoot well enough if they are babysat by Cawl. Never run them outside of mars tho, that 4+ to hit is horrendous. The problem is they are laughably easy to kill using ranged weapons and they fold worse than eldar in assault. I expect chapter approved to drop their base costs by 15 points in line with the drop in costs for inceptors.
In the old thread. Plasma is still the most point efficient weapon in the game, and Plasma Culverins are beastly. On the money about how flimsy they are though. You would have to put them in a bunker or something to make them pay off.
Wulfey wrote: Point for point kataphron destroyers are efficient at shooting. I know the math is out there somewhere, but they shoot well enough if they are babysat by Cawl. Never run them outside of mars tho, that 4+ to hit is horrendous. The problem is they are laughably easy to kill using ranged weapons and they fold worse than eldar in assault. I expect chapter approved to drop their base costs by 15 points in line with the drop in costs for inceptors.
In the old thread. Plasma is still the most point efficient weapon in the game, and Plasma Culverins are beastly. On the money about how flimsy they are though. You would have to put them in a bunker or something to make them pay off.
210 points of grav destroyers versus 240 points of earthshaker batteries
On first turn, it is a good 50% chance that destroyers won't even be in range. 5*3*0.75*0.33
3 grav destroyers on average with Cawl do 3.7 unsaved wounds to an ESB (no d3 since 4+ armor)
The ESB will always be in range of destroyers and 3 of them should do 4.35 unsaved wounds to the destroys, each of these subject to a D3 roll (expect 2 dead). 3*4.5*0.58*0.67*0.83
If you think your opponent might have ESBs, then your destroyers are just irrelevant. Maybe they get off 1 turn of shooting on something good. But 50% of the time they dead before they shoot.
You're right. I forgot to mention that the Plasma Culverin was the most point efficient gun at the time that I wrote about them. The Imperial Armour book had not come out yet. But yeah, ES Batteries are crazy good for 80 points.
so here's something hilarious ... a special weapon team is 45 points and needs 13.5 confirmed hits to kill. the 71 point kataphron needs 18 the SWS will have half a shot less at 24' than the kataphron and 2.5 more shots at 12"..... you're paying twice as much for 12' woth of maximum range.
I d love breachers in my stygies. Infiltrating them taking a relic using that +1 save +1 attack seemed build for them. But it all comes down to points. 140 points I could get a neutronager. Or even infiltrate it. Why would I ever take breachers ?? ND they got a point reduction already.
As for destroyers . Once when they where actually a grav paper damage dealer yes. Risk and reward and we had twin linked all over. Now if I have to take 270 min and a bastion to fit them inside I'd prefer two robots and an onager cheaper any day. Or a knight almost. Even if we forget the cost and w decide on roles and we do in cases they don't fill it. Random d6 shots without even rolling twice I hilarious stupid. They don't cost 45 points each they cost 70+ why would they not even have a steady output?? It so stupid. If you take them and even if you manage to survive first or second round you still might get crap shooting for two rounds easily. If you don't overcharge and don't get a min of 9 shots you wasted tons of points. Any player that has faced ad mech before in his life will kill the with a bunch of bolters . If you loose 270 points from enemy small guns you just lost a guard battlion in one shooting!!
P.s breachers suppose to be a troop antitank. So make them one. If they get their weapons rapid 2 str 7 then hey will become something. Till then onager win.
For destroyers the old salvo rule should return. 3/5 shots move or stationary or 2d6 keep the highest to begin with. Could use 4 hp each fnp or 5+ invu if near an hq blq bla point reductions something but gw does. Or bother and we should not till they wake the ... Up
U02dah4 wrote: The only way to even remotely make them functional is 5 or 6 in a bastion
Comming in at only slightly more than an IK with 0 mobility
And then they get zero buff to their shooting, so are mediocre at their specific goal and then have cost you even more points to compensate for their awfulness.
I wonder if simply giving them a 3+/5++ would give them the durability to put their points to use. Same as robots but without the aegis and deflection....or actually hell just give them the same save and protocols as robots. Would make a datasmith more worth taking then too.
Octovol wrote: I wonder if simply giving them a 3+/5++ would give them the durability to put their points to use. Same as robots but without the aegis and deflection....or actually hell just give them the same save and protocols as robots. Would make a datasmith more worth taking then too.
I actually like the Protocols thing. Seems like all these semi-autonomous units should be subject to them - basically all servitor based stuff and Cybernetica stuff. Skitarii are still ostensibly human.
If I remember right, that is basically what 30k has via Cybertheurgy.
After playing Graia through an escalation league while Refusal to Yield can save the odd model its still random. And with the way it works it can really slow the game down when multi wound models and random damage weapons get involved as you have to do each hit one at a time unlike things like Disgustingly Resilient which meant round time became an issue even in smaller games. The stratagem is handy but it's hampered by being once per phase so any dedicated psycher force won't be hampered that much.
The only time I'm using Kataphrons now is as Torsion Breachers with Cawl, which serves as a nuke brigade that's seemingly really hilariously good at what it does.
I've tried them in a bunker, which works alright enough, but I'm feeling the difficulty without Cawl near them.
I'm musing on the worth of a Void Shield Generator for covering Kataphrons, but it's a 190 point investment.
I would be so inclined to suggest sticking the Kataphrons in a 100 point Bunker, which is within the Void Shield, but you're looking at 290 points protecting a thing.
It'll certainly get your opponent to ignore even trying to shoot them, I'm sure.
Buddingsquaw wrote: I'm musing on the worth of a Void Shield Generator for covering Kataphrons, but it's a 190 point investment.
I would be so inclined to suggest sticking the Kataphrons in a 100 point Bunker, which is within the Void Shield, but you're looking at 290 points protecting a thing.
It'll certainly get your opponent to ignore even trying to shoot them, I'm sure.
I think one main benefit of the Void Shield Generator is that you are still outside and can still benefit from Cawl.
Truth is if its outside you get buffs to shoot but your dead in a turn against a competant opponent so never making its pts back
Or it is inside a building not buffed but gets a few turns to make it's pts back which is not quick and stIll unlikely to cover the cost of building +kataphrons
Your not gonna get efficiency out of a unit that 35 pts a model too expensive
VSG is 195 points for something that gives you a 5++ in place of a 6++ in a tiny 6" bubble with strict rules for whoel units being within. GWFAQ nerfed it down to 5++. And kataphrons already have 6++.
What really killed the kataphron discussion was wrath of mars. In the index days kataphrons actually shot comparable damage per point with robots. Post wrath of mars ... kataphrons have no role.
Even if you don't run Mars, Binharic Override makes Kataphrons obsolete. Setting aside durability concerns, the only real edge that Kataphrons had were their mobility and ability to point and shoot immediately rather than spending a turn setting up.
This all being said, I still think a 6x unit of Kataphrons in Agripinaa can be something worth trying out. Just keep recycling them.
Suzuteo wrote: Even if you don't run Mars, Binharic Override makes Kataphrons obsolete. Setting aside durability concerns, the only real edge that Kataphrons had were their mobility and ability to point and shoot immediately rather than spending a turn setting up.
This all being said, I still think a 6x unit of Kataphrons in Agripinaa can be something worth trying out. Just keep recycling them.
I get a strange sense of satisfaction on the consensus on what is competitive and what is not competitive from the codex.
Wulfey wrote: VSG is 195 points for something that gives you a 5++ in place of a 6++ in a tiny 6" bubble with strict rules for whoel units being within. GWFAQ nerfed it down to 5++. And kataphrons already have 6++.
-snip-
Oh, I wasn't aware of that. Daresay the Hive Shield bundle they're releaseing with the Haemotropes will let you get it back up to 4++?
"generators that bolster the Void Shield Generator’s capacity".
But on another note: With Destroyers, what's the generally preferred secondary gun? Phosphor or Flamer?
I imagine it'll be a bit different now, what with Promethium pipes no longer making Flamers torrent weapons.
Ok I'd accept that getting a unit back without reserved points might be good but. You forgetting how awful the codex is.
Agripinaa ok and 6 destroyers right and 3 cp and 70+ per destroyers for d6 shot and then what? Detachments more tax.
We talking about Cawl and 3 Robots cost of points a crusader or so much more for what? If you spend 500+ and 3 cp just to shoot
With d6 it's bad. Grav could be a good decision but it's situational at least. The d6 their 4+ bs 4+ armor is extremely bad for 70+ and d6 shots. Plasma Ryza can be a really threat but we return on the easy death talk. Needs revamp and I don't mean buff revamp. Need to find a role.
Just reading today that Tyranid warriors are 20 points base now. Thats the sort of lvl a kataphron should be at. I wouldn't mind paying for the big guns at 20pts base. 172 pts for 3 grav destroyers (if they had the 3+ save which they should have anyway) is much easier to find a place for than 219.
Also need that +1 Bs and WS for being near a tech priest. Just....every new codex that comes out has me scratching my head, just so much missing thats being added to other units.
Octovol wrote: Just reading today that Tyranid warriors are 20 points base now. Thats the sort of lvl a kataphron should be at. I wouldn't mind paying for the big guns at 20pts base. 172 pts for 3 grav destroyers (if they had the 3+ save which they should have anyway) is much easier to find a place for than 219.
Also need that +1 Bs and WS for being near a tech priest. Just....every new codex that comes out has me scratching my head, just so much missing thats being added to other units.
yeah I’m thinking of switching to guard entirely. Not even as counts as. No fun playing the army GW treats like the redheaded step children. Literally every other army has transports and most have flying transports but we who make ALL the imperiums pimp rides can’t take a chimera. Imagine how good skitarii could be with a chimera or taurox. Drive up pop smoke turn one turn two open up unleash plasma
Octovol wrote: Just reading today that Tyranid warriors are 20 points base now. Thats the sort of lvl a kataphron should be at. I wouldn't mind paying for the big guns at 20pts base. 172 pts for 3 grav destroyers (if they had the 3+ save which they should have anyway) is much easier to find a place for than 219.
Also need that +1 Bs and WS for being near a tech priest. Just....every new codex that comes out has me scratching my head, just so much missing thats being added to other units.
yeah I’m thinking of switching to guard entirely. Not even as counts as. No fun playing the army GW treats like the redheaded step children. Literally every other army has transports and most have flying transports but we who make ALL the imperiums pimp rides can’t take a chimera. Imagine how good skitarii could be with a chimera or taurox. Drive up pop smoke turn one turn two open up unleash plasma
I have already started buying myself an Eldar army. GW has one shot to fix AdMech before the end of year to keep me playing it - Chapter Approved. If they can't give me a reason to play with my whole collection and not long for rules/models from other armies, why play it (competitively speaking)?
At least Eldar have flyers, psykers, and mobility on top of their solid shooting. AdMech is just a static gunline detachment you augment with the all-around better Guard now. Absolutely tragic.
gendoikari87 wrote: I looked over the eldar codex and they have excellent anti tank but I could t find much in the way of really efficient anti infantry? What did I miss?
Depends what your idea of efficient anti infantry is. It's my understanding shuriken cannons and scatter lasers are their anti infantry guns. Or shadow weavers.
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MrDwhitey wrote: As someone who has 4 boxes of Kataphrons this talk has me a little worried.
They're not bad, just way too expensive for what they do. Given the points reductions flying around chapter approved, there's a good chance all the stuff we have thats currently not worth it could be made useful purely by being cheaper.
gendoikari87 wrote: I looked over the eldar codex and they have excellent anti tank but I could t find much in the way of really efficient anti infantry? What did I miss?
Shadow Specter Prism Rifles generating up to 3 S6 -3 shots a piece. Webway Guardians for 20 Catapult and 6 Cannon shots. Even Fire Prisms can shoot dispersed for 2d6 shots each at S6 -3, which will chew up MEQ. Dark Reapers can throw down Starswarm shots, which are S5 -2 2D, which will put some pain on Primaris type stuff. Most Wave Serpents are triple Cannons, so 9 shots. Windriders with Cannons are also incredibly point efficient.
They do err towards more anti-tank, but a lot of stuff also carries secondary anti-infantry weapons, so I think the army has a nice well-rounded spread.
I don't play ad mech cause they are top tier or low tier. I might not take them when I plan to play vs super competitive armies but either way I play them. It's an army with it's story great looks and I can easily say one of the best if not the best Ally to take.
When we started debating here about bad codex units tactics I considered all was clear on that. And every single player new to the game when he ask what play I say. What you really like above all. You LL buy it fix it paint it and play it. It's a hobby game a collection and a story.
If you play in team tours I don't believe adeptus mechanicus has anything less than any other army if we take the role of antitank antiair role. What's the problem. In solo games imperial soup works better in many armies and it's obvious if you min max best units from more armies you LL prolly get better results.
And we have been playing from day one. Conclaves priest wolf's inq Psy assassin's Sisters custodes you name it.
Thats war. I don't want transports.our troops first thing they cut their feet for endless walk . I want my army to be proper. I d prefer a scout dunestrider etc rule. I'd prefer point reduction to get more bodies. I'd prefer a flier transport to get my vehicle also moving . That's kind of design. I will not use a chimera and atm none uses it. Who cares about it. Really. Get your crawlers with dominus and move the field with troops simple things you got weapons to do the job.
And the rest do the same. Spam razorbacks ok spam onagers why the rest are better ?? We all got - + use them. And if at the end you come short or maybe the play style don't suit you then pick another army and start evolvimg it.
There are issue we will try to address them but the army atm got some serious stuff. Onagers Robots Dragoons snipers priests you can do some serious things . Try some combinations.
The best arguments I heard were for kataphron breachers with arc rifles, since they are tougher and cheaper. Their damage output is just terrible, but at least .. you know I can't finish that sentence. I would never ever run them in a competitive environment.
MrDwhitey wrote: As someone who has 4 boxes of Kataphrons this talk has me a little worried.
They're not bad, just way too expensive for what they do. Given the points reductions flying around chapter approved, there's a good chance all the stuff we have thats currently not worth it could be made useful purely by being cheaper.
What is this stupid idea of "not bad but way too expensive" I keep seeing. Stats and weapons mean literally NOTHING without the context of price in pts.
T99 6768 wounds, 100'' S90 AP8 Deals 12D6 mortal wounds; doesn't mean he's good if he costs 9999999999 pts
T3, 1w doesn't mean terrible if it costs 1pts
Here's another problem with Destroyers. Plasma are the really useful ones, but they're mostly just useful anti tank. If you could up their BS to 3+ they're decent anti tank..... problem is they're not as good as neutronagers. point for point if you increased their BS to 3 they do ever so slightly more damage on a T5 frame without a 5+ rerollable invuln
Currently the only reason to use destroyers is as a way to buff dakkastallens for FWs other than mars. They aren't bad at it either, and with plasma they aren't a total waste of space. Still, probably better to just take more kastallens.
MrDwhitey wrote: As someone who has 4 boxes of Kataphrons this talk has me a little worried.
They're not bad, just way too expensive for what they do. Given the points reductions flying around chapter approved, there's a good chance all the stuff we have thats currently not worth it could be made useful purely by being cheaper.
What is this stupid idea of "not bad but way too expensive" I keep seeing. Stats and weapons mean literally NOTHING without the context of price in pts.
T99 6768 wounds, 100'' S90 AP8 Deals 12D6 mortal wounds; doesn't mean he's good if he costs 9999999999 pts
T3, 1w doesn't mean terrible if it costs 1pts
Typically it refers to the matter that, while the unit functions as intended and doesn't need more rules, it's mildly overcosted to do that job. There's several kinds of rebalance, and this is the kind where the unit just needs a price cut rather than additional rules or both.
As they are not for tour competitive. If you just wanna test around or maybe don't have enough robots bla bla. I'd say.
3 onagers
2 balistarii lasc.
If you don't have any of the above then try plasma destroyers points accordingly.
Robots 4-6
If you don't have then take grav accordingly.
Same goes for lower point games when you want the dakka in a troops slot.
Try to have Cawl buffing two robots and the unit of destroyers since the bs 4+ is bad with only rerolling 1s. You can take snipers plasma vang and dominus for mobility etc. I do the have to mention if you eventually end up with a unit of 6 then Ryza Agripinaa is your friend always aim for elimination volley if you got fistelans and grav. Plasma specialist fr Cawl plasma. Enjoy
So what is the glaring weakness we have that result in Ad Mech being non-competitive? Crawl + 4 Robots + Iccarus Dunecrawlers seem pretty devistating on paper; what tends to go wrong?
kastelen wrote: Anti tank will kill them, tarpitting will kill them and sniping cawl will kill them.
So, going Stygies for the -1 and swapping out Crawl for the Destroyers with Plasma and flamer may not be so crazy after all...
Not crazy, just really bad. Cawl is too much of a force multiplier, since our Robots hit on 4+. If they were 3+, I think I would not mind a TPD, because then its just 2's that miss (16%) vs 2's and 3's (33%). But yea, really it just isn't worth it. Also, having access to Wrath is vital. We can't handle threats like Magnus or Mortarion otherwise.
kastelen wrote: Anti tank will kill them, tarpitting will kill them and sniping cawl will kill them.
So, going Stygies for the -1 and swapping out Crawl for the Destroyers with Plasma and flamer may not be so crazy after all...
Not crazy, just really bad. Cawl is too much of a force multiplier, since our Robots hit on 4+. If they were 3+, I think I would not mind a TPD, because then its just 2's that miss (16%) vs 2's and 3's (33%). But yea, really it just isn't worth it. Also, having access to Wrath is vital. We can't handle threats like Magnus or Mortarion otherwise.
seriously people the robots are OP as hell you don't need them to be OP as hell x10 I've been going agrapinna and it's getting boring winning every game because nothing can touch the damn robots before they shoot them to pieces. in four games I've lost one to some chaos shenanigans (deepstriking quadruple terminators with meltas who through psyker abilities moved to within half) they were promptly put down when they charged by the remaining three bots when the terminators charged.
I imagine if you don't have to worry so much about charges stygies and TPD should do you fine, i've been taking a simple tech priest and wiping orks, chaos and nilla space marines off the board by turn three.
This is why i'm trading in mechanicus static gunline is about the only thing you can really do with them and it's boring and predicatable. 4-5 drops means you go first most of the time, you drop the threat to the robots turn 1, turn 2 you wipe out the troops, turn 3 mop up. Grey knight stike squads help with the mop up part if anyone tries to go hide behind buildings.
kastelen wrote: Anti tank will kill them, tarpitting will kill them and sniping cawl will kill them.
Our artillery is pretty good at killing other anti-tank. Screens will stop tarpitting. I would laugh if anyone brings enough snipers to kill Cawl. The guy is still rather durable.
kastelen wrote: Anti tank will kill them, tarpitting will kill them and sniping cawl will kill them.
Our artillery is pretty good at killing other anti-tank. Screens will stop tarpitting. I would laugh if anyone brings enough snipers to kill Cawl. The guy is still rather durable.
Indeed. Amusingly we actually have probably the best sniper weapon in the game outside of assassins on our side. Most others just get long range heavy bolters with less shots lol.
There’s an argument to be made the arquebus is better than vindicares. Both are situational. Vindicares are great against characters with invuln saves, the arquebus is a terrific guard killer.
gendoikari87 wrote: There’s an argument to be made the arquebus is better than vindicares. Both are situational. Vindicares are great against characters with invuln saves, the arquebus is a terrific guard killer.
Its also reasonable at plinking wounds off light/medium vehicles. even against invul saves theres always the chance for d3 mortals in addition.
My arquebuses were really useful almost in every game I played, so many times did they snipe the Warlord from across the map, through a tiny hole. They think they're safe, but they're not ! Last time it allowed me to balance a game from defeat to draw just by slaying the Warlord with 2W left who thought he would live one more day after killing my Infiltrators. Well he didn't !
Aaranis wrote: My arquebuses were really useful almost in every game I played, so many times did they snipe the Warlord from across the map, through a tiny hole. They think they're safe, but they're not ! Last time it allowed me to balance a game from defeat to draw just by slaying the Warlord with 2W left who thought he would live one more day after killing my Infiltrators. Well he didn't !
I wonder how that feels... having our sniper rifles actually hit and damage something. I've been running them for ages and just hate them now. Invariably only half hit (of two, lol). Then somehow I always fail to wound.
Aaranis wrote: My arquebuses were really useful almost in every game I played, so many times did they snipe the Warlord from across the map, through a tiny hole. They think they're safe, but they're not ! Last time it allowed me to balance a game from defeat to draw just by slaying the Warlord with 2W left who thought he would live one more day after killing my Infiltrators. Well he didn't !
I wonder how that feels... having our sniper rifles actually hit and damage something. I've been running them for ages and just hate them now. Invariably only half hit (of two, lol). Then somehow I always fail to wound.
that sounds like the opposite of tau drones I used to run. They killed everything.... in close combat
Aaranis wrote: My arquebuses were really useful almost in every game I played, so many times did they snipe the Warlord from across the map, through a tiny hole. They think they're safe, but they're not ! Last time it allowed me to balance a game from defeat to draw just by slaying the Warlord with 2W left who thought he would live one more day after killing my Infiltrators. Well he didn't !
I wonder how that feels... having our sniper rifles actually hit and damage something. I've been running them for ages and just hate them now. Invariably only half hit (of two, lol). Then somehow I always fail to wound.
Fret not, I had my share of fails too, the worst is the 2 on the Hit roll when you have a Dominus nearby. Or the classic failed wound roll of course. But double 6 on the Wound roll happens more often than not !
kastelen wrote: Anti tank will kill them, tarpitting will kill them and sniping cawl will kill them.
Our artillery is pretty good at killing other anti-tank. Screens will stop tarpitting. I would laugh if anyone brings enough snipers to kill Cawl. The guy is still rather durable.
Indeed. Amusingly we actually have probably the best sniper weapon in the game outside of assassins on our side. Most others just get long range heavy bolters with less shots lol.
I did the math in the previous thread. Vindicares are much more survivable, but with Cawl rerolls, two Arquebuses can do way more damage against a much wider variety of targets than a single Vindicare. Furthermore, Arquebuses make your Rangers something other than cannon fodder.
That being said, the math does not work out for snipers in general. Fact is, the targets you are shooting are either cheaper than the sniper or too durable to kill in a timely manner. In general, you are always better off leaving your Rangers as cannon fodder and investing the points in more threats than in a reactive solution to your opponent's threats.
You can also do as I and others have and skip the Rangers entirely in favor of Skitarii-counts-as-Guardsmen.
I am planning to do this myself:
Spoiler:
Cadian Battalion Detachment - 512
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila
Heavy Support - 240 1x Earthshaker Battery
1x Earthshaker Battery
1x Earthshaker Battery
Lots of indirect fire support from the Guard; the rest of my list is very much direct artillery. Mortars can free up my Kastelans for anti-character duties; against a lot of armies, it's tough to decide what to shoot. For example, Daemon Primarchs vs. Horrors.
kastelen wrote: Anti tank will kill them, tarpitting will kill them and sniping cawl will kill them.
Our artillery is pretty good at killing other anti-tank. Screens will stop tarpitting. I would laugh if anyone brings enough snipers to kill Cawl. The guy is still rather durable.
Indeed. Amusingly we actually have probably the best sniper weapon in the game outside of assassins on our side. Most others just get long range heavy bolters with less shots lol.
I did the math in the previous thread. Vindicares are much more survivable, but with Cawl rerolls, two Arquebuses can do way more damage against a much wider variety of targets than a single Vindicare. Furthermore, Arquebuses make your Rangers something other than cannon fodder.
That being said, the math does not work out for snipers in general. Fact is, the targets you are shooting are either cheaper than the sniper or too durable to kill in a timely manner. In general, you are always better off leaving your Rangers as cannon fodder and investing the points in more threats than in a reactive solution to your opponent's threats.
You can also do as I and others have and skip the Rangers entirely in favor of Skitarii-counts-as-Guardsmen.
I am planning to do this myself:
Spoiler:
Cadian Battalion Detachment - 512
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila
Heavy Support - 240 1x Earthshaker Battery
1x Earthshaker Battery
1x Earthshaker Battery
Lots of indirect fire support from the Guard; the rest of my list is very much direct artillery. Mortars can free up my Kastelans for anti-character duties; against a lot of armies, it's tough to decide what to shoot. For example, Daemon Primarchs vs. Horrors.
You better off with a heavy weapons team not infantry with mortars . Or if you don't have the slot astropaths. Troops especially guard can and will move in many games .Yes they can screen but there are many games that you don't need to be stationary. Move move move is a superb card obj taker. Those mortars just make your troops stationary. If possible take a heavy weapons team if no slots then I'd suggest deep strike units plasma ratlings or astropaths.
Snipers for me are extremely good. Stygies 162 points full group omnispex or 97 5 man two snipers force my enemy to cut the crap. I know killing a liutenant is less points 97for 60 but doing so first round with deep striking ratlings and two snipers was game changer for my opponents. Better vs guard good v orc ND generally if there is something moving aggressively in the map killing things always good to aim at it. I even used snipers to finish off tanks. Why not 7-2 d3 mortal -Cover is extreme. All fear it all shoot them every single game from plasma strikes to lasc bolter w/e they get shot. That's why I have them stygies.
2 shots 66 points with -1 stygies rest guarding my back and sides from deep strikes. Most of the games I end up snipers end where they start then robots then all the rest moved in front. Or with earthshkers obviously shakers back snipers side. Their 60 range a group of 5 provide the cheap unit I need with -1 to hit to stand there. 97 points well invested. And yes I know it's 6 staff priest going with Dragoons but I have tested and found I can't run effectively many units. Bigger Dragoons work better. And since I consider Robots auto include the yes dragoons. But it could work with priests as a big unit if you decide that's what you like. Most likely priest robots more effective cause of mortals but priest are low Robots are stationary. Need dragoons s to play the game.
Now I utilise outrider in my !ists so I found also the 2d6 run for my lasc balistarii or offensive Dragoons to be of use. Usually balistarii by the end fo the game can move to cap cards etc. And will shoot on a 5+ rerolling ones with canticles.
Future tip talk : if we have Cawl must and Robots. Then I m guessing here any point change on destroyers + any overall abjustm in lists like lower cost in our army. Would definitely results in thing a group of 3 destroyers with flamer and grav. A units proper to utilise infoslave skull gem is a weapon I could use. Atm you can risk it with dakka priests but as always destroyers will help robots bla bla. If only priests had any sunergy!!
You better off with a heavy weapons team not infantry with mortars . Or if you don't have the slot astropaths. Troops especially guard can and will move in many games .Yes they can screen but there are many games that you don't need to be stationary. Move move move is a superb card obj taker. Those mortars just make your troops stationary. If possible take a heavy weapons team if no slots then I'd suggest deep strike units plasma ratlings or astropaths.
Mortars don't make you stationary. They are so cheap, who cares if you skip a turn to move the unit? Having that 4d6 S4 shots over a few turns though can help. You can also target stuff out of LoS, which might help against remnant squads who run and hide. That alone is worth it, because we are not a mobile army overall (even if we can move some), so being able to pick off stranglers who might camp an objective behind LoS blocking terrain is very handy.
Astropaths struck me as more useful when we were doing a single Conscript squad we could buff. With 3-4 squads, it isn't as useful since we can't stack up Nightshroud and Barrier. The opponent will just shoot one of the squads without a buff(s).
Interesting result: onagers are exactly as durable as leman russes to plasma except leman russes have 1 more wound. Each confirmed plasma overcharge shot deals an average of .82 damage to the onager and .83 to the leman russ. The 5++ reroll 1 invuln on the onager pretty much makes up for the lower toughness. Of course this means the crawler is actually more resilient to things like lascannon a than the russ.
gendoikari87 wrote: Interesting result: onagers are exactly as durable as leman russes to plasma except leman russes have 1 more wound. Each confirmed plasma overcharge shot deals an average of .82 damage to the onager and .83 to the leman russ. The 5++ reroll 1 invuln on the onager pretty much makes up for the lower toughness. Of course this means the crawler is actually more resilient to things like lascannon a than the russ.
And it’s significantly cheaper
The magic point is rerolling ones. That's what we need to have always. And that's why we can't split onagers to dogmas that's why are bound on 2* battalion or spearhead.cant be one unit can't be more than 2 in batt. Etc. If they could I would only play onagers.
What they need to do is give onagers grinding advance and make neutrons heavy 1. Then give them their power weapons back and you could field a whole army of onagers
gendoikari87 wrote: What they need to do is give onagers grinding advance and make neutrons heavy 1. Then give them their power weapons back and you could field a whole army of onagers
I actually quite like my onagers to be able to move with no penalty. If neutron lost it's D3 shots it loses it's drama. The looks on peoples faces when you roll 3 shots on your neutron laser makes up for all the times you roll one. The potential to cripple, if not outright destroy any vehicle in one volley is something very few other guns have. 9 wounds minimum on 3 failed saves, even a single neutron shot is gauranteed 3 wounds on a failed save. In my experience with lascannon no-one is that worried about because it's a single shot and you can still roll a 1 or 2 on damage and it might as well have been a bolter or plasma.
It would benefit the beamer and twin heavy phosphor, but i'd rather the twin heavy phosophor wasnt even on there. I'd have liked to have seen the eradication beamer get a 3rd firing profile with more than d6 shots.
My original plan was no heavy weapons teams, but MT doctrine with bolters and lasguns. Lots of moving, with the advance and shoot order being especially useful. Thing is, I envisioned two scenarios. The first being an aggressive objective grabbing scenario, which this would be good at. The second being the more common oh-crap-here-come-the-hordes scenario in which I have to stand in dragon's teeth formation and fight off a ton of gaunts or Boys. In which case, cheap Mortars and rerolls are essential. If I have to move to grab an objective, losing the bonus for a turn is a small price to pay.
Anyhow, another option is Mortars with MT doctrine instead of Cadian? I'll have to think about it.
D3 on the Onagers is amazing. I ran 2 against a Guard tank list, and with 2 Kastellan Robots I took 22 wounds off a Baneblade in 1 turn. No Cawl, and 1 Dunecrawler fluffed it. The other one inflicted 16 damage by itself.
gendoikari87 wrote: If we’re adding guns to the onager something akin to a twin assault cannon or punisher would have been nice. Something truly dangerous to hoards
A dispersion-style firing profile on the eradication beamer would do that. Or somehow give the twin heavy phosphor double shots.
Though tbh robots are about as good a hoard counter as any. And dragoons do a pretty damn good job at it as well.
gendoikari87 wrote: I think the reasoning is we get move and fire.... you know in an army who’s only real trick is static gunline
The other units can move and fire too - just limited to half distance movement. I'd take that any day over our current rule, because I almost never move my gunline once it hits the table.
I played a game against 6-Carnifex + 2 Malanthrope, Flyrant, and Hive Guard Tyranids and got stomped. Do we have any way of effectively negating a -1 to hit? My dakkabots hitting on 5+s (rerolling) and wounding on 5+s absolutely removed my ability to deal with the Fexen bearing down on me. I dropped Sicarians on the Hive Guard blob, but accomplished nothing and got wiped out in combat. My Onagers accomplished nothing, they simply didn’t have the firepower to remove Carnifexes fast enough. The Hive Guard wiped my Icarus Onager turn one, leaving behind the Neutron, so I just had no effective shooting all game.
Issue could be because of my lack of experience playing the army in 8th, but I’d still like some tips.
Not enough Dakkabots, which with Wrath are putting mortals out on must-kill models. No Dragoons, which would be able to lock stuff up and slow them down.
Those are two issues right there. I don't leave home without 5 bots and I skipped the DS now, too.
You could spent turn one focusing down on his Malanthropes and then do turn two Wrathing down on the Fex. Point Onagers at Flyrant, hope you can stop it. If not, divide out some Dakkabots to handle it.
2 dakka bots is way not enough. Was this a cc list or shooty list 4-6 dakkabots with agrapinaa is a tough unit to successfully charge. Though if anything can do it it’d be t7 3+ models
gendoikari87 wrote: 2 dakka bots is way not enough. Was this a cc list or shooty list 4-6 dakkabots with agrapinaa is a tough unit to successfully charge. Though if anything can do it it’d be t7 3+ models
Yea, but Agripinaa is going to struggle hard with only re-rolling 1's vs re-rolling 1's, 2's and 3's. Mars is the way to go for Dakkabots, especially when we so desperately need Wrath to put Mortal wounds out there.
I mean dakka bots are super op to start with but they have a cc achillies heel. Going agrapinaa helps negate that weakness while keeping them op... just not op ermagerd kei oh ken x10 dragon slave level broken.
What’s the best way to kill the Malanthropes? They have 9 wounds, are characters, and were surrounded by Carnifexes. I tried sniping at them, but accomplished nothing (and got my snipers killed by a Flyrant).
I’m aware of my Dakkabot Deficit Deficiency, and am working to rectify it.
Verviedi wrote: What’s the best way to kill the Malanthropes? They have 9 wounds, are characters, and were surrounded by Carnifexes. I tried sniping at them, but accomplished nothing (and got my snipers killed by a Flyrant).
I’m aware of my Dakkabot Deficit Deficiency, and am working to rectify it.
Jeez, it is a character. Good job, FW. That definitely makes it just incredibly good (and a no-brainer for 'Nids). No easy way to take them out, so just aim 5 or 6 Wrathbots at their heavy hitters and bank on the re-rolls. Malanthropes are slowish, so are 'Fexes. Deploy very smart and make sure you have max turns to shoot. Speed bumps will help.
Remember the Mal bubble is only 3", so he isn't keeping everything in it. The Flyrant may not be, so knock that sucker down fast. It is a legit threat due to its speed.
Had a game against new Tyranids today, 1500 pts with my usual list, lost at turn three because of mission objectives that were unrealisable due to some casualties. From now on I know that to face a proper Tyranid list I have to form a last stand gunline block in a corner, just because of the ways they can pop up in your face with the Mawloc (the tunnel-thingy) that brang 30 S4 shooty gaunts right in my face. I understand why everyone bring Conscripts for screening but I want to keep it full AdMech.
Aaranis wrote: Had a game against new Tyranids today, 1500 pts with my usual list, lost at turn three because of mission objectives that were unrealisable due to some casualties. From now on I know that to face a proper Tyranid list I have to form a last stand gunline block in a corner, just because of the ways they can pop up in your face with the Mawloc (the tunnel-thingy) that brang 30 S4 shooty gaunts right in my face. I understand why everyone bring Conscripts for screening but I want to keep it full AdMech.
Dragoons are awesome for deep strike screening. Big oval base covers a lot of area.
Thanks, I’ll try to work on that. My current collection is very limited. Any sources you know of for cheap Dragoons? I’ve been holding off buying them due to prices.
Verviedi wrote: I played a game against 6-Carnifex + 2 Malanthrope, Flyrant, and Hive Guard Tyranids and got stomped. Do we have any way of effectively negating a -1 to hit? My dakkabots hitting on 5+s (rerolling) and wounding on 5+s absolutely removed my ability to deal with the Fexen bearing down on me. I dropped Sicarians on the Hive Guard blob, but accomplished nothing and got wiped out in combat. My Onagers accomplished nothing, they simply didn’t have the firepower to remove Carnifexes fast enough. The Hive Guard wiped my Icarus Onager turn one, leaving behind the Neutron, so I just had no effective shooting all game.
Issue could be because of my lack of experience playing the army in 8th, but I’d still like some tips.
Your screen needs to be cheaper; those points can go into more artillery, which is the only way you will be competitive. I would recommend 15 Rangers for the bodies, but ideally, you want to do something like 30-40 Guardsmen in the current meta. Need something to soak up Smite and to form the "moat" of your castle.
Dragoons beat both flavors of Sicarians. A unit of 4 easily can kill a Carnifex each turn once the Conqueror Imperative is turned on.
You want 4 Dakkabots at a minimum. As for Crawlers, you need to work on some arrangement for target selection. If you have 5-6 Dakkabots, which are best for T4-5 (but let's be honest, they will just about murder anything if you need them to), then you want something to handle T6+ and T3. That means 2-3 Neutrons. Icarus and your troop screen can handle T3; Icarus actually fills a lot of the same roles as the Kastelans, only they trade raw damage for range, durability, and mobility.
Flamer SoS seems interesting. How did those work out? I actually would cut that Auxiliary for even more CP and dakka, but I have no experience with Greyfax or SoS.
gendoikari87 wrote: I mean dakka bots are super op to start with but they have a cc achillies heel. Going agrapinaa helps negate that weakness while keeping them op... just not op ermagerd kei oh ken x10 dragon slave level broken.
This is why you need screening units arranged in a sort of staggered dragon's teeth arrangement; Tyranids pile-in is terrifying.
Verviedi wrote: Thanks, I’ll try to work on that. My current collection is very limited. Any sources you know of for cheap Dragoons? I’ve been holding off buying them due to prices.
Dragoons are dragoons. Just got to bite the bullet and buy the models. They aren't cheap and they are miserable to build and paint, but they are invaluable.
Verviedi wrote: Thanks, I’ll try to work on that. My current collection is very limited. Any sources you know of for cheap Dragoons? I’ve been holding off buying them due to prices.
Well, you could kitbash Scout Sentinels with a Skitarii and taser lance? Just slap them on the right base.
Then there's eBay and the Chinese recasters that occasionally sprout up like mushrooms.
EDIT: Never mind, forgot there are no plastic Penitent Engines.
Sigh yeah. Good point. It's like a third the volume. Guess Sentinel legs plus something on top. (On a side note, I've seen cool Dreadnought + Sentinel leg conversions.)
Suzuteo wrote: Sigh yeah. Good point. It's like a third the volume. Guess Sentinel legs plus something on top. (On a side note, I've seen cool Dreadnought + Sentinel leg conversions.)
Suzuteo wrote: Sigh yeah. Good point. It's like a third the volume. Guess Sentinel legs plus something on top. (On a side note, I've seen cool Dreadnought + Sentinel leg conversions.)
That being said, Quantum Cannons ship for half of what I paid for here in the US. I think altogether, I paid $100 for three Earthshakers: three Quantum Cannons, two sets of Crawler abdomens and legs, and some 8x3mm and 12x1mm magnets. I already had some cheap 130mm HDF bases.
The annoying thing is I literally live down the road from Warhammer World and in days gone by you could go there and buy any specific bit from any specific kit. Hell you used to be able to buy sprues by weight!
"Page 76 – Strength from Death
Add the following paragraph: ‘Matched Play: If you are playing a matched play game, a unit from your army cannot make a Soulburst action if a friendly unit has already made the same Soulburst action during your turn. In addition, units from your army cannot perform any Soulburst actions during your opponent’s turn.’"
Some features of this list:
1) We drop the Cawlstar entirely. The combo of Cawl and Kastelan are inseparable, so they're clearly the biggest impediment to innovation. Icarus Crawlers take up the slack against T4-5 units (admittedly few and far between in this meta), massacre battlesuits and jetbikes, and can still outperform or match Neutron on anything flying, including Daemon Primarchs.
2) Because there is no Cawlstar, there is no reason to stay Mars. So Stygies with a Dominus. -1 to hit is amazing in other armies, and it's still amazing here. Infiltrate is also scary.
3) Dominus matches Cawl with 2+ shooting. What is the cheapest way to get a massive amount of 2+ shooting? 6 Ironstriders + Doctrina. All of the AdMech in this army moves and shoots at 2+ or 3+.
4) Dragoons get incorporated without the need for an Auxiliary detachment.
5) Cadia Battalion with 5+/5+ CP artifacts prevents the opponent from hiding units and lets us abuse the Doctrinas. They camp objectives and add indirect fire support.
Suzuteo wrote: Womp womp. No need to worry about Ynnari anymore.
"Page 76 – Strength from Death
Add the following paragraph: ‘Matched Play: If you are playing a matched play game, a unit from your army cannot make a Soulburst action if a friendly unit has already made the same Soulburst action during your turn. In addition, units from your army cannot perform any Soulburst actions during your opponent’s turn.’"
Some features of this list:
1) We drop the Cawlstar entirely. The combo of Cawl and Kastelan are inseparable, so they're clearly the biggest impediment to innovation. Icarus Crawlers take up the slack against T4-5 units (admittedly few and far between in this meta), massacre battlesuits and jetbikes, and can still outperform or match Neutron on anything flying, including Daemon Primarchs.
2) Because there is no Cawlstar, there is no reason to stay Mars. So Stygies with a Dominus. -1 to hit is amazing in other armies, and it's still amazing here. Infiltrate is also scary.
3) Dominus matches Cawl with 2+ shooting. What is the cheapest way to get a massive amount of 2+ shooting? 6 Ironstriders + Doctrina. All of the AdMech in this army moves and shoots at 2+ or 3+.
4) Dragoons get incorporated without the need for an Auxiliary detachment.
5) Cadia Battalion with 5+/5+ CP artifacts prevents the opponent from hiding units and lets us abuse the Doctrinas. They camp objectives and add indirect fire support.
By Doctrina I presume you mean the conquerer/protector strategms? (just for clarification) Do you even have 12 ironstriders?
I have an impending 1k team up local gathering and i'm potentially gonna try a no troops list.
Essentially:
Spoiler:
Spearhead detachment 985
1 x TPD
3 x dragoons
2 x dragoons
1 x 2 dakkabots
2 x neutronager
Essentially just trying to work 3 dragoons into a 1k list and still keep my robots and crawlers lol. I cant think of another way of doing it. I'm really not happy about going down to 4 cp though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I for a fact one person has 1k of 99 gribbly nids and another 1k of just 7 monsters of which 4 are carnifexes. SO at 1k i'm not hopeful against either of those lol
Octo, you can only choose one option once per turn. You can't do it on the enemy turn and you must choose an Ynnari warlord. And you must have something die for that to trigger at all.
It is extremely hindering and compared to what other armies get, seems a major overcorrection to an army that wasn't exactly top tier.
fun fact I had to buy two dice sets for my dakkabots along with a special cup to roll them with
That’s why I’m not worried about going mars and cawl. Dakkabots are super op on their own they need protection not more firepower
I have dice from when I played Orks back in '09. It is 100 5mm green dice and they are adorably tiny. Plus, they roll hot as hell usually (unlike literally every other set of dice I have ever owned, ever).
Perhaps because I only started collecting again last year and I only have 2 at the moment Plus I still need to fit everything into 1k for this particular occasion, and have some heavy firepower and something to handle charges
More robots are a good investment. I run 4 in 1000 points as agrapinaa. Between a decent screen and nearly full bs overwatch nothing has so far completed a charge against them yet.
Some features of this list:
1) We drop the Cawlstar entirely. The combo of Cawl and Kastelan are inseparable, so they're clearly the biggest impediment to innovation. Icarus Crawlers take up the slack against T4-5 units (admittedly few and far between in this meta), massacre battlesuits and jetbikes, and can still outperform or match Neutron on anything flying, including Daemon Primarchs.
2) Because there is no Cawlstar, there is no reason to stay Mars. So Stygies with a Dominus. -1 to hit is amazing in other armies, and it's still amazing here. Infiltrate is also scary.
3) Dominus matches Cawl with 2+ shooting. What is the cheapest way to get a massive amount of 2+ shooting? 6 Ironstriders + Doctrina. All of the AdMech in this army moves and shoots at 2+ or 3+.
4) Dragoons get incorporated without the need for an Auxiliary detachment.
5) Cadia Battalion with 5+/5+ CP artifacts prevents the opponent from hiding units and lets us abuse the Doctrinas. They camp objectives and add indirect fire support.
By Doctrina I presume you mean the conquerer/protector strategms? (just for clarification) Do you even have 12 ironstriders?
Yes, the idea is to use 2 CP per turn to buff the 6x Ironstrider units so that you don't even need Cawl. Everything shoots at 2+ anyway.
No. I would need to actually buy/modify 6 Ballistarii. But what do people think of the idea? x(
So fires should be announced the end of this month I’m thinking. How do people expect the macrocarid and triarios to be implemented? And how will that change the meta
gendoikari87 wrote: So fires should be announced the end of this month I’m thinking. How do people expect the macrocarid and triarios to be implemented? And how will that change the meta
I dunno man. It is slated 2018 and all, but this soon? I figure it'll be Q4 2018 at the earliest.
What’s the stats on the triarios going to look like? Think it’ll be closer to a repulsor in points and stats or a chimera? Given how similar skitarii are to scions I’d be interested in trying out plasma vanguard units if the triarios is reasonable or maybe the macrocarid
gendoikari87 wrote: What’s the stats on the triarios going to look like? Think it’ll be closer to a repulsor in points and stats or a chimera? Given how similar skitarii are to scions I’d be interested in trying out plasma vanguard units if the triarios is reasonable or maybe the macrocarid
It is HUGE. It should be akin to a Land Raider in wounds and toughness. I hope they do its shock prow justice with some kind of crazy CC rules. And it has a 20 capacity in 30k if I recall right, so we are just going to have a blast dropping Fulgurites into people's faces!
Some features of this list:
1) We drop the Cawlstar entirely. The combo of Cawl and Kastelan are inseparable, so they're clearly the biggest impediment to innovation. Icarus Crawlers take up the slack against T4-5 units (admittedly few and far between in this meta), massacre battlesuits and jetbikes, and can still outperform or match Neutron on anything flying, including Daemon Primarchs.
2) Because there is no Cawlstar, there is no reason to stay Mars. So Stygies with a Dominus. -1 to hit is amazing in other armies, and it's still amazing here. Infiltrate is also scary.
3) Dominus matches Cawl with 2+ shooting. What is the cheapest way to get a massive amount of 2+ shooting? 6 Ironstriders + Doctrina. All of the AdMech in this army moves and shoots at 2+ or 3+.
4) Dragoons get incorporated without the need for an Auxiliary detachment.
5) Cadia Battalion with 5+/5+ CP artifacts prevents the opponent from hiding units and lets us abuse the Doctrinas. They camp objectives and add indirect fire support.
By Doctrina I presume you mean the conquerer/protector strategms? (just for clarification) Do you even have 12 ironstriders?
Yes, the idea is to use 2 CP per turn to buff the 6x Ironstrider units so that you don't even need Cawl. Everything shoots at 2+ anyway.
No. I would need to actually buy/modify 6 Ballistarii. But what do people think of the idea? x(
Is nice and good but worse than Cawl Robots. Two main reasons.
1) if spamming was the case neutron still better with Cawl. Cause of better wound str10 -4 ap and min 3 damage.
2) Cawl buff hit rolls with points while more units of dragoons require cp. if we spending cp then wrath of mars provides mortals and your plan does not.
as i see it there should be another good list with staff priest. Another way to deal mortals if you need full stygies. You cant wit without mortals vs any 2+ save. the question was Robots or Preists etc. IF you dont want the expensive robots go for priest stygies ++ the plan you like. no robots nor priests no mortals less effective. I like the buff option for ironstriders but we dot take Mars only for Cawl. Wrath of mars is range mortals 36 ".
gendoikari87 wrote: More robots are a good investment. I run 4 in 1000 points as agrapinaa. Between a decent screen and nearly full bs overwatch nothing has so far completed a charge against them yet.
I have a lot of trouble positioning my robots so that they can’t be charged from behind a wall meaning I can’t over watch presume you’re still screening with imperial fodder?
I need to decide what my list intends to do I think. I really love dragoons offensively, even though I could use them for screening defensively it seems a waste to use our only fastish unit to stand still. Certainly so far my squad of 3 dragoons has done more offensively than the 2 dakkabots, the +2 to hit with them is crazy good; so far I’ve usually end up with 50% more hits each time they fight. And taking out stygies dragoons at range is almost as frustrating as stygies aegis robots.
I actually love the idea of plonking down 12 ironstriders and having 6 in a squad really makes those strategms that much more worth their cp. especially if they get charged and your opponent doesn’t realise you can make the entire squad fire at 3+ on overwatch ironstriders are so versatile if you have cp to spend.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It’d be nice to have some more plasma options from fires. So We can actually make the Ryza strategm worthwhile; cold be the new wrath of mars if we get some decent enough models for it.
There’s a lot of 30k weapons we haven’t seen in 40k yet though. Hopefully they don’t get the torsion cannon treatment.
Some features of this list:
1) We drop the Cawlstar entirely. The combo of Cawl and Kastelan are inseparable, so they're clearly the biggest impediment to innovation. Icarus Crawlers take up the slack against T4-5 units (admittedly few and far between in this meta), massacre battlesuits and jetbikes, and can still outperform or match Neutron on anything flying, including Daemon Primarchs.
2) Because there is no Cawlstar, there is no reason to stay Mars. So Stygies with a Dominus. -1 to hit is amazing in other armies, and it's still amazing here. Infiltrate is also scary.
3) Dominus matches Cawl with 2+ shooting. What is the cheapest way to get a massive amount of 2+ shooting? 6 Ironstriders + Doctrina. All of the AdMech in this army moves and shoots at 2+ or 3+.
4) Dragoons get incorporated without the need for an Auxiliary detachment.
5) Cadia Battalion with 5+/5+ CP artifacts prevents the opponent from hiding units and lets us abuse the Doctrinas. They camp objectives and add indirect fire support.
By Doctrina I presume you mean the conquerer/protector strategms? (just for clarification) Do you even have 12 ironstriders?
Yes, the idea is to use 2 CP per turn to buff the 6x Ironstrider units so that you don't even need Cawl. Everything shoots at 2+ anyway.
No. I would need to actually buy/modify 6 Ballistarii. But what do people think of the idea? x(
Is nice and good but worse than Cawl Robots. Two main reasons.
1) if spamming was the case neutron still better with Cawl. Cause of better wound str10 -4 ap and min 3 damage.
2) Cawl buff hit rolls with points while more units of dragoons require cp. if we spending cp then wrath of mars provides mortals and your plan does not.
as i see it there should be another good list with staff priest. Another way to deal mortals if you need full stygies. You cant wit without mortals vs any 2+ save. the question was Robots or Preists etc. IF you dont want the expensive robots go for priest stygies ++ the plan you like. no robots nor priests no mortals less effective. I like the buff option for ironstriders but we dot take Mars only for Cawl. Wrath of mars is range mortals 36 ".
I actually crunched the numbers:
I assume that the Ballistarii always has Doctrina. With it, the Dominus setup is superior for everything bigger than a TEQ.
Under all circumstances, the Dominus setup is stronger against Daemon Primarchs and the Cawlstar against TEQs and below. With Wrath of Mars, Cawlstar edges out, especially against high-toughness and invulnerable saves, but you have much fewer uses of that than the Doctrina; you actually "start" with 2 less CP given a Auxiliary detachment and the use of Binharic Override (52 point tax for avoiding either one). Other factors that aren't accounted for are the fact that the Dominus setup has WAYYY more durability due to the fact that it can move and shoot all weapons without a penalty at 48" range and has across the board -1 to hit beyond 12".
So yeah, seems surprisingly viable. The only question is whether or not horde is a thing. If so, the Dominus setup relies a lot on the Guard detachment and keeping its distance from the target.
No unfortunately. The problem is what we can gain with points so we don't spend cp. Cawl provides reroll on robots onagers and it's value vs enemy -1 to hit is beyond measure. None else has it. Reroll aura for making your entire army good vs air -1 hit etc.
It's not a dominus reroll. It helps vs enemy strategy . And it's done with points. Same reason I changed my list from aux or battalions to out rider.
I use balistarii 95 points for 2 lascannons shots for fast unit screener duty. Behind my troops even if they are skitarii or guard. Troops then balistarii most likely. And if I play solo ad mech my mars tech priest uses technomartyr for robot overwatch.
I need screener and offence . I can use balistarii single units to do my errands and still shoot at 5+. Or buff if need. My Dragoons even only 3 I use offensively and usually split them.
Mortals do not compare to any other damage cause mortals continue to next model. There is no comparison and it's not only important for tours high toughness etc. They are a weapon so in many cases when I need to finish off different targets I can. 4 robots split fire one shooting Marines other termies other vehicles etc. With wrath of mars the % climbs dramatically.
I know how buffs work but if that was the case then 6 balistarii with autocannons + 2 hit wrath are better. Can't beat the volume of fire . Still this plan consumes even more cp.
Why. Cawl does something you can't change.and since he is not my warlord ever I use him and onagers more offensively. Passing robots most of the timed.
Don't get me wrong suzuteo I like the plan sure go for it but it won't be consistent. I wanted to infiltrate an enginseer with Dragoons but again the results are not so important to waste that cp or relic. It's the codex. It's stupidly designed. You just have low synergy between the dogmas and army!!
Cawl Robots Onagers must be there to have a change and maybe. When an enemy has a reroll on hits as you do with Cawl -1 hit goes bye bye. Won't spend more cp . I usually waste 1 cp on my 3 Dragoons to info and one for first attack combined with taking rerolling ones canticle. Rest go for rerolls or wrath.
And that's why I play simple troops in guard and astropaths. I love rangers but they are 5 wounds 4+ save. While I need to have options. With my two astropaths if my enemy has volume of fire I use -1 hit buff. If my enemy has elite shooting I use +1 save. You can't have the option and 10 wounds with rangers as I do it with guard. Same goes for basilisk and earth shaker. If you take a decision you play with it and gg. Why when you can have options.
All plans can work maybe if your opponent not so good maybe you seize. The problem begins when you go second and you opp know exactly what to do. And those Robots with aegis can soak enough for you to win.
Yoda79 wrote: No unfortunately. The problem is what we can gain with points so we don't spend cp. Cawl provides reroll on robots onagers and it's value vs enemy -1 to hit is beyond measure. None else has it. Reroll aura for making your entire army good vs air -1 hit etc.
Yes. If you run Dakkabots, you need Cawl. The point of my list is to try to see how a list with no Dakkabots work work. There's no BS4+ or Mars, and thus, no need for Cawl.
Yoda79 wrote: Mortals do not compare to any other damage cause mortals continue to next model. There is no comparison and it's not only important for tours high toughness etc. They are a weapon so in many cases when I need to finish off different targets I can. 4 robots split fire one shooting Marines other termies other vehicles etc. With wrath of mars the % climbs dramatically.
Yes. Mortal Wounds are a big deal for sure. I actually still think Cawlstar is the way to go unless we see a huge shift toward a tank meta. In that situation, Ballistarii mobility, 48" range, -1 to hit, and CP efficiency may be superior to a big static unit of 36" range Dakkabots.
Yoda79 wrote: I know how buffs work but if that was the case then 6 balistarii with autocannons + 2 hit wrath are better. Can't beat the volume of fire . Still this plan consumes even more cp.
I'm a fan of 2 Autocannon Ballistarii for harassing mid-toughness units, but you don't get the same value for 6 Autocannons.
I like the idea of a 6 ballistari star to abuse the +2 to hit strategem, but I have only 4 dragoon models. We are talking about a lot of kits. Kastelon robots can be bought for 20 bucks a piece if you buy them as just the bits you need from ebay. If Chapter approved leaves things as they are, I think ESBatteries and guard parking lots backed up by a stygies icarus ball could be quite viable. Something like:
CADIA
2x1 Commander (5+/5+ and relic of lost cadia)
3x10 guard troops
2x3 ESBatteries
IMPERIUM
Celestine
3x1 Astropaths
This gives you a huge amount of non-LOS shooting backed up by the exact unit that counters all the -1 to hit fliers. Relic of lost cadia gives a pretty much auto win versus chaos. Celestine is there to stay mobile and contest objectives during the game. ESBatteries flatten anythign that doesn't have -1 to be hit, the STYGIES group kills all the hard to hit stuff.
Oh yes, it is undoubtedly a very expensive army to build. I mean, how suspicious that we get large unit bonuses for these very expensive models... >_>
How often can you use the Relic of Lost Cadia? I always figured it was a one-time thing.
I think it would be a shame not to put Mortars in those Infantry squads. The big weakness of this army is that it has no way to wipe a really big horde off the map.
Suzuteo wrote: Oh yes, it is undoubtedly a very expensive army to build. I mean, how suspicious that we get large unit bonuses for these very expensive models... >_>
How often can you use the Relic of Lost Cadia? I always figured it was a one-time thing.
I think it would be a shame not to put Mortars in those Infantry squads. The big weakness of this army is that it has no way to wipe a really big horde off the map.
My buddy back at my old store says it is can be multi use since it doesn't say only once. I think that is bs and will get FAQd. But the ITC judges at Game Empire let it ride. I was surprised.
EDIT: is is a 70% increase in damage for at least one turn. Versus a daemon primarch that is a massively big deal. Chaos is tops. And you can always just not spend the extra CP on the relic if you run up against a list where rerolling 1s to wound wouldn't be worth it for a turn for 1 CP. Think about how you can spend 1 CP, rerolling 1s to wound on your whole army for a shooting phase is a big deal.
So is there much point to an Icarus Onager? I feel like with fliers only giving a -1 to hit the Neutron laser is still going to be superior even in that niche case. My main army is guard and I have a ton of vanguard for my admech already so I'm not really seeing a point to any Onager beside the Neutron laser.
Suzuteo wrote: Oh yes, it is undoubtedly a very expensive army to build. I mean, how suspicious that we get large unit bonuses for these very expensive models... >_>
How often can you use the Relic of Lost Cadia? I always figured it was a one-time thing.
I think it would be a shame not to put Mortars in those Infantry squads. The big weakness of this army is that it has no way to wipe a really big horde off the map.
My buddy back at my old store says it is can be multi use since it doesn't say only once. I think that is bs and will get FAQd. But the ITC judges at Game Empire let it ride. I was surprised.
EDIT: is is a 70% increase in damage for at least one turn. Versus a daemon primarch that is a massively big deal. Chaos is tops. And you can always just not spend the extra CP on the relic if you run up against a list where rerolling 1s to wound wouldn't be worth it for a turn for 1 CP. Think about how you can spend 1 CP, rerolling 1s to wound on your whole army for a shooting phase is a big deal.
Yeah. RAI seems to be one, but RAW is clearly an unlimited number of times.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So is there much point to an Icarus Onager? I feel like with fliers only giving a -1 to hit the Neutron laser is still going to be superior even in that niche case. My main army is guard and I have a ton of vanguard for my admech already so I'm not really seeing a point to any Onager beside the Neutron laser.
I think the point has been raised many times before, but Icarus beats or matches Neutron on everything that flies and anything under T6 with 1-2 wounds. It sort of competes with Kastelans for the same role.
the icarus "beats" the neutronager. it's ultra niche. you're much better off going dakkabots and neutronagers unless those very niche things it's better at feature heavily in your meta. which given alaitoc flyer spam is a definite possibility.
Icarus is nowhere close to ultra niche. As I have said time and time again, it actually performs better against more targets than Neutron. In fact, the Neutron Laser is way more specialized than the Icarus Array; we do need that specialization at times though.
I mean, Daemon Primarchs are the big bad right now. Also, Icarus is strictly better in any matchup against Altaioc Eldar, Tau Commander spam, or Elysians. Then there's any assault horde army, like Green Tide, Tyranids, or Genestealers, where your Dakkabots actually need some help killing the sheer number of enemies on the board.
Formosa wrote: been reading this thread so i can get an understanding of how to beat these guys, they always seem to be my nemesis :/
So does anyone have any tips for a Dark Angels player on what to target etc.
thanks
Buddy of mine came up with a damn nasty list. took two full tac squads with plasma cannons, a dev squad with two plasma cannons and two lascannons. stuck them all up under the darkshroud with some characters and a lieutenant and apothecary. so the whole blob had a 4+ invulnerable save, -1 to hit, re rolled ALL failed hits, and rerolled failed wound rolls of 1. he played it against chaos and wiped them from the board by turn 5.
Making a list with no Cawl can be doable sure. But competitive wise its not wise.
i tried Breachers screnner for robots and elimination volley.With a dominus its superb sure. same points bla bla bs3+ .It the same reason i wont do it with ironstriders. Wont spend cp for buffing to hit. when i got Cawl for reroll everything.
Same for icarus yes it was a non brainer because we usually had an antiair role in team tours. yes becayse icarus is almost or better below 6-7 toughness bla bla. but...
all these dont matter no more.
lascannon is not better than neutron nor cheap nor durable.
Icarus is not punchy enough so it takes the antihorde role while you have robots you dont need them.
Yes dragoons can be of use but must not be yor main force since they get no synergy other than a hit cp buff.
I could accept a unit of 4 dragoons and a unit of 3-4 auocanons but the result would be what? 1 c for +2 hit? and? 7 -1 2 damage? wow
18 shots str6 -2 - Cover 2cp wrath of mars / robot
d3 shots str 10 -4 3-6 damage
Reroll everything and Cawl Is the best anti horde to protect your lines.
Forget the robots after round 3 and usually wont have much more than 1-2 cause if you have you would be winning and move Cawl onagers troops as you like. thats why i said no mortars on troops.
Troops Guard or skitarii need to move eve if to defend need to move you need to take that 6 intch extra move first turn to have room for falling back etc etc reositioning Robots bla bla.
You never want to stay stationary ll game never. if you move 2 turns and you should wasted mortar points and i talk about dkka wall fights.
Cawl also provides +1-1 for all Mars meaning you can and i am take a canticle each turn. Shroud or melee reroll or moral reroll or . decide as i always take reroll 1s when i charge dragoons even turn one and roll Mars second for shroud psalm. or eve if you wont do it still Cawl abjust +1-1 canticles.
The rerolling aura is not for air only. YOU CAN REROLL ALL SHOOTING HITS so vs lets say an -1 wide Dark angels army your ONAGERS ROBOTS ETC rcan reroll all SHOOTING NOT MISS. so you reroll those 3s that miss. ad with out any cp spend. NO cp spending for your entire dakka 1000 point dakka line.
Cant compare different things. Even if i where to pick a dominus and i use them. i would go for another dakka buff.
a unit of robots and a unit of destroyers for elimination volley and Ryza bla bla. Its good to have -1 t get hit but i need to kill things an you wont do it with balistarii.
The winning lists so far last monthboth had approx. 12+ lasc shots with bs3-4+ and some rerolls. you wont do it with 6-8 lasc shots. a simple elite army a simple razorback spamm will most likely play first and kill your 3-4 balistarii the end. Round one.
MArs list even if you loose onagers 3 x neutronager that is unlikely you still can wrath of mars for mortals. can add balistarii or earthshakers to the mix. Earthshakers bs4+ vs a -1 hit wont do nothing thats why i get only 2 ad 2 balistarii.
the point on makig soup lists is to take options not spam.
if earthshakers where op the take a list only with them??
no we take earthshakers for los shooting mainly. 80 points cheaper than balistarii. Cadian reroll ones and 2d6 choose shots. but immobile. Decisions.
how you play matters. if you want to move then take grav destroyers with Robots and wrath of mars and move with one fist robots group.Elimination volley and a group of 9 deastroyers mixed guns can kill almost everything. go earthshaker spamm. go onager spamm. i played 6 onager list with dominus pre codex. its brytal with snipers and dragoons.
Split them 3 dogmas 3 dominus snipers and 3 deployment zones and let them chase you. 140 points for 11 wounds 5+ re 1s t7 neutron is cheap.
and if to hit is your proble Cawl can definetly move with breachers with onagers superb. remove robots take kataprhons spamm oager still better results from earthshakers and balistarii. dragoons spam all over for screeners. why bother.
and take any dogma combination. any detachment anything you like to your playstyle. But i wont spam average units and say its a pan vs Cawl.
We dont take Solo Cawl.We take Robots superb point wise and volume of fire ad survivability. we take onagers for bla bla bla and dragoons cause they can rush die cheap.
Sorry but thats how it is.
hell even infiltrators with 25-50 pistol 240+ points. shots will do better with wrath of mars than balistarii +2 to hit.
The volume of fire when produce mortals cant be changed.
4+robots
10 infl
6 grav destroyers
6 autocannon balistarii
on the table with Cawl and wrath of mars will be a threat to anything on the board cause of seer number of shots. just spend cp to buff them wrath of mars nothing esle. Till the last one is dead. Better result in mathhammer but most likely wont win the games.
even priests with 3 cp spend are extremely nice. 10 x4 40 shots. split to kill a unit 3+ invu. Party inside enemy lines. for 170 points and 3 cp. better i get 2 guard battalions for cp and spamm priests.
Yoda, I think you're going past what the math supports.
Dominus is worse than Cawl because he has an overpriced body and an inferior aura. However, when you have BS3+, +2 to hit, and reroll 1s, Dominus's effect is indistinguishable from Cawl's, but he is 115 points cheaper. (Against -1 to hit, you can stand still and cancel out their -1.)
Neutron is strong because it is consistent and opens up tanks without invulnerable saves like tin cans. You can have 2 Neutrons for 3 Twin Lascannons, but the real kicker is the buff. You can give +2 to hit to all 6 Ballistarii for 1 CP. That is HUGE in terms of point efficiency; easily the best stratagem in in our mediocre Codex. Furthermore, it competes indirectly with Kastelans, both in Heavy Support slots, and in points. You will run out of either pretty fast, so you probably won't get away with more than 2 Neutron on most lists; 3-4 if you cut out the screen and indirect fire, which is, in my opinion, a bad call.
Actually, my list does call for 12 lascannon shots. Only with BS2+, -1 to hit, repair, and a sizable anti-air and indirect artillery component. All of which is 48"+ range. Not to mention the Dragoons.
I think you underestimate how good -1 to hit is. If 6 Razorbacks move and shoot, they're only going to kill one Ballistarii and reduce another to 1 wound; Ballistarii has no wound table though. If they stay static and shoot, they kill two Ballistarii. But if you're deploying smart, you are going to hide them, either out of range or LOS to force the Razorbacks to move; you can move and shoot at BS2+, which is a big deal. Then you have the Dragoons coming in from the rear, forcing them to disembark their Marines or to redirect their shooting. In any case, second strike is not too bad a situation to be in against a Razorback spam list.
6x Ballistarii don't compete with the 4-6x Dakkabots. They compete with the 2-3x Neutron Crawlers. The 3x Icarus Crawlers compete with the Dakkabots. (Dakkabots do double duty because of their volume fire. They kill characters and hordes.) The list is only viable if we need less anti-horde.
You shouldn't say "sorry, that's how it is," given I was here to help make it how it is. Anyhow, nothing like this is written in stone. I have seen compelling math to suggest that there is immense value to be had with a +2 to hit stratagem applied to a 6x unit of Ballistarii. It is extremely expensive to try this out though. Proxy it at your FLGS?
Alright thanks guys. I picked up a ton of skitarii a while back for cheap so I was seeing if there was much point to an onager with the icarus array over Neutrons. I have volume of fire covered pretty easily with my guard but since I have 3 onagers I may just build the 3rd one as an icarus in case the neutrons get nerfed or I decide to run a pure admech list.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Alright thanks guys. I picked up a ton of skitarii a while back for cheap so I was seeing if there was much point to an onager with the icarus array over Neutrons. I have volume of fire covered pretty easily with my guard but since I have 3 onagers I may just build the 3rd one as an icarus in case the neutrons get nerfed or I decide to run a pure admech list.
Just make the weapon switchable, it's what I did. I made it so I could test our the Icarus like you are wondering about.... let's just say the neutron laser has been on there basically always. The Icarus, when you have robots already, is not amazing.
kastelen wrote: What is the best 2000 points Mars with a small amount of stygies army list?
The things you want to be Stygies are largely Dragoons, and then also if you want the Stygies detachment to give you command points, minimum amounts of rangers and enginseers for Battalion.
Suzuteo wrote: Yoda, I think you're going past what the math supports.
Dominus is worse than Cawl because he has an overpriced body and an inferior aura. However, when you have BS3+, +2 to hit, and reroll 1s, Dominus's effect is indistinguishable from Cawl's, but he is 115 points cheaper. (Against -1 to hit, you can stand still and cancel out their -1.)
Neutron is strong because it is consistent and opens up tanks without invulnerable saves like tin cans. You can have 2 Neutrons for 3 Twin Lascannons, but the real kicker is the buff. You can give +2 to hit to all 6 Ballistarii for 1 CP. That is HUGE in terms of point efficiency; easily the best stratagem in in our mediocre Codex. Furthermore, it competes indirectly with Kastelans, both in Heavy Support slots, and in points. You will run out of either pretty fast, so you probably won't get away with more than 2 Neutron on most lists; 3-4 if you cut out the screen and indirect fire, which is, in my opinion, a bad call.
Actually, my list does call for 12 lascannon shots. Only with BS2+, -1 to hit, repair, and a sizable anti-air and indirect artillery component. All of which is 48"+ range. Not to mention the Dragoons.
I think you underestimate how good -1 to hit is. If 6 Razorbacks move and shoot, they're only going to kill one Ballistarii and reduce another to 1 wound; Ballistarii has no wound table though. If they stay static and shoot, they kill two Ballistarii. But if you're deploying smart, you are going to hide them, either out of range or LOS to force the Razorbacks to move; you can move and shoot at BS2+, which is a big deal. Then you have the Dragoons coming in from the rear, forcing them to disembark their Marines or to redirect their shooting. In any case, second strike is not too bad a situation to be in against a Razorback spam list.
6x Ballistarii don't compete with the 4-6x Dakkabots. They compete with the 2-3x Neutron Crawlers. The 3x Icarus Crawlers compete with the Dakkabots. (Dakkabots do double duty because of their volume fire. They kill characters and hordes.) The list is only viable if we need less anti-horde.
You shouldn't say "sorry, that's how it is," given I was here to help make it how it is. Anyhow, nothing like this is written in stone. I have seen compelling math to suggest that there is immense value to be had with a +2 to hit stratagem applied to a 6x unit of Ballistarii. It is extremely expensive to try this out though. Proxy it at your FLGS?
i have the outmost respect on everything you say and i was the first to support your dragoon lists in all forums and tables.
Sorry goes for wha ti play. Maybe my english are not so uber for all to understand i try to help out with my experience and findings. I m not ere to tell none what t play or how to. I use various tactisa and report my experience. I use balistarii and dragoons in my lists.
I love them and i never leave home with out stygies. even In fact i changes my lists to outrider with 2x1 balistarii and 1x3-4 dragoons and snipers for that exact reason. And i have also neutronager in solo ad mech battalions when need.
Dont get me wrong i say plans i find important or i believe to workj better not what you should do/
kastelen wrote: What is the best 2000 points Mars with a small amount of stygies army list?
EDIT: Found the most recent copy of my old list:
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1070
HQ - 250 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 820 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
5x Kastelan Robots - Heavy Phosphor Blasters, Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Stygies VIII Battalion Detachment - 922
HQ - 104 1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Warlord: Necromechanic, Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Heavy Support - 290 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Total: 1992 points 7 Command Points
Note that the Mars detachment is actually smaller. This is because Mars specialized in handling hordes and characters with the Cawlstar, but it's the Stygies that did most of the trading with tanks and such. Neutron Crawler is in Stygies because it can use the -1 to hit and can be repaired. (That being said, you can move them both into the Mars detachment for better shooting.)
I have since moved on to using a Guard Battalion because it is much more robust. 5+/5+ CP recycling and Earthshakers are pretty OP, Mortars are great anti-GEQ, and you get 2-3 times as many bodies to screen with.
Suz, that list is solid, but I would say push the Neutronagers over to Mars for the re-rolls. I would hate to miss those precious few Neutron shots because of bad rolls.
Verviedi wrote: Hahahaha, you think Chapter Approved will give us benefits? How naïve. Nerfs, maybe. But no benefits. We’ll be Waiting For Cyraxus for those.
I mean we can hope right? It’s adjusting point values maybe kataphrons will get a buff?
Verviedi wrote: Hahahaha, you think Chapter Approved will give us benefits? How naïve. Nerfs, maybe. But no benefits. We’ll be Waiting For Cyraxus for those.
I mean we can hope right? It’s adjusting point values maybe kataphrons will get a buff?
I wouldn't want the changes in Chapter Approved anyway. That's another book to buy. I would much rather print out an FAQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Suz, that list is solid, but I would say push the Neutronagers over to Mars for the re-rolls. I would hate to miss those precious few Neutron shots because of bad rolls.
Yeah, that is a choice. I would then make Cawl the Warlord, since there's no real point to the Enginseers.
EDIT: mark this down, Secutarii in Chapter Approved. I don't have anything to back this up. But they said we would eventually get rules for those little guys. I choose to believe.
all this time i've been trying to find suitable leg replacements for kataphrons...what i've realised now is that what i SHOULD be doing is making them into tiny miniature tanks instead
EDIT: mark this down, Secutarii in Chapter Approved. I don't have anything to back this up. But they said we would eventually get rules for those little guys. I choose to believe.
FW in Chapter Approved by GW? Nope. I can't see them doing it.
EDIT: mark this down, Secutarii in Chapter Approved. I don't have anything to back this up. But they said we would eventually get rules for those little guys. I choose to believe.
FW in Chapter Approved by GW? Nope. I can't see them doing it.
It's already been confirmed that FW units will be addressed in Chapter Approved (this was in response to a question about Malefic Lords).
EDIT: mark this down, Secutarii in Chapter Approved. I don't have anything to back this up. But they said we would eventually get rules for those little guys. I choose to believe.
FW in Chapter Approved by GW? Nope. I can't see them doing it.
It's already been confirmed that FW units will be addressed in Chapter Approved (this was in response to a question about Malefic Lords).
Really? I hadn't heard that. Well, maybe we will finally get our Secutarii then. They might be the thing missing for us to adequately screen our army without using Guard or lots of expensive ($) Dragoons.
I’d just be giddy if the changed chimeras to have faction mechanicus forge world and the ability to transport skitarii
He’ll give the army a new rule, recall: for any vehicle with the imperium keyword add adeptus mechanicus and forgeworld to its factions and add skitarii to units it can transport
EDIT: mark this down, Secutarii in Chapter Approved. I don't have anything to back this up. But they said we would eventually get rules for those little guys. I choose to believe.
FW in Chapter Approved by GW? Nope. I can't see them doing it.
It's already been confirmed that FW units will be addressed in Chapter Approved (this was in response to a question about Malefic Lords).
Really? I hadn't heard that. Well, maybe we will finally get our Secutarii then. They might be the thing missing for us to adequately screen our army without using Guard or lots of expensive ($) Dragoons.
Pretty sure it's just going to be some point updates for the more controversial FW units though, so I certainly wouldn't get any sorts of hopes up for secutarii
Nope. No AdMech stuff. It seems like rules for all the factions not getting a codex this year. Or ever, for that matter. (They will probably reprint all these rules in their respective codexes.) So no Secutarii unless they're going to be for Imperial Knights.
That's what I thought as well regarding point changes.
So assuming we don't get any stat changes, what sort of point updates do you guys think are to be expected/hoped for?
My own predictions (and in some cases hopes)
-Kastellans switch prices, shooty ones become more expensive. (This would negatively impact most of us but it would be fun if the CC ones were more worth considering)
-Tech Priest Dominus drops 10 points in base cost (This would be real nice, though doubtful)
-Russtalkers drop 5ppm (Would be awesome to actually be ableto field these guys, the models are really nice)
-Kataphrons drops 5ppm (Probably still won't be enough for people to field them really, they would have to drop another 5-10 I guess)
-Onagers go up 5ppm (Assuming we get some favorable point changes I'm guessing there's going to be some bad ones as well, the onager is one of the few good units we have so..)
What do you guys think? Assuming Admech will get point changes I feel like these units are the most probable. Would these changes shake up your lists at all?
I mean, if we got plasma kataphrons for 50ppm I'd use them without question, especially considering there's some synergy to be had with kastellans. That price drop seems overly ambitious though
PiñaColada wrote: I mean, if we got plasma kataphrons for 50ppm I'd use them without question, especially considering there's some synergy to be had with kastellans. That price drop seems overly ambitious though
not really, interceptors got a 15ppm drop. that'd bring kataphrons down to 57
friend of mine whose been collecting a while always raises a good point when i exclaim that something is too pricey points wise etc. Take your model and compare it to the closest equivalent space marine. They are the base level for everything.
Ruststalkers could do with being a few points cheaper, but not much. I mean they're light assault infantry essentially, we dont even have any heavy assault units.
I actually dont think breachers are that badly pointed, 47 each stock is about as much as a terminator but with better weapons, greater movement, more wounds and can fire on the move.
Destroyers on the other hand...they should have the same 3+ save for starters. and some non-cp way of improving BS. if anything breachers should have worse BS and better Ws and vice versa on destroyers. The main problem with destroyers is not necessarily their price, but their balance of high damage to survivability is way off for the points. When you pay 70 odd points base wargear you expect to get a pretty hardy unit. What we actually get are powerful guns on an above average model. And we're reluctant to field 220 points of unit that can die just as easily as one that costs 140.
Same story for fistellans. The close combat weapons are worth the points. the problem is that the model only gets its invulnerable save against shooting attacks. Which makes it a massive liability to put it in front of stuff. It can still slap down stuff, it just cant take it.
Its the same story when you start putting twin lascannons on chickens. 97 points for two lascannons when a 67 point equiavalent model is more survivable at range.
I do think we'll get points reductions, basically because I'm reasonable confident of how rushed and underthought the early release of our codex was. It was almost certainly written and finalised way before people had finished testing 8th.
You can't compare like that. GW doesn't do that. They appear to contextualize within each Codex for points, not across Codex or with Marines as any yardstick.
They have no clue. Ad mech codex is really bad. Design result everything. They need to spend time to revamp it and remake some serious things but they got their head up their @@. wont see major issues addressed soon unfortunately.
And it all started with the techpreist moved to hq slot.It was the sloppiest change ever. dogmas dont have synergy. You cant even use invu save for onager if in different dogmas nor healing. We just dont have hq options in a detachment list building edition.
Make datasmith able to be elite or hq. make healing from hq army wide. give custom options to enginseers equipment etc so we can use warlord and relics. And give reduced cost and abilities to our models default.
kataphrons zero usage.
Ryst and inf extreme cost
Techpriests enginseers both zero options zero auras extreme cost no utility. techpreist maybe better bust still tax.+++
Fistelans bad. no synergy
Transports fliers Psych anything to be able to make a plan maybe some form of defense against them. Like when we had real ARC weapons to defend vs so much armor. Lower cost on weapons of all troops. plasma snipers arc omnispex grav etc.
Return the rules for invunerable broad spectrum healing bla bla pre codex to army wide.
Make Wt 5+ regain command point and give another like guard has.Reduce cost for stratagems and make them effectively like canticles for the full duration till other turn starts like knight gems.
Or we wont see any win in higher tier.
For Pragmatism's sake as well as pessimism. Assume Admech will get worse in every regard or no change. GW has made it pretty clear they are no longer interested in supporting the faction. Every FAQ and Errata, in my opinion, support this, either with debuffs or simply ignored.
I love my admech and will still play them but I know I'm playing a dead army. Luckily, they look so cool, I don't mind playing them.
They wrote the codex early as Octovol has said and I don't think they intend to ever look at the army again until 9th edition or some other large scale shake up. And I hope Octovol is right, that we get some point deductions as we do dearly need it.
I personally feel our codex was written to clear out their overstock on Onagers, Robots, Dragoons, while the rest of the models were pretty much made below par to encourage players to play one way. And that way happens to be their worst selling models.
....what the eff?! Cawl was overpriced to begin with. He isn't nearly tanky enough and his re-roll bubble isn't that big a deal. Jeez, GW. He should be 200pt, not more than 250!
If Kataphrons and many other of our units don't drop in points majorly, this faction is really just done, since we already struggle to get what we need. If Cawl goes up, what can we afford to cut?
Formosa wrote: been reading this thread so i can get an understanding of how to beat these guys, they always seem to be my nemesis :/
So does anyone have any tips for a Dark Angels player on what to target etc.
thanks
Hi, could you tell us what your opponent is mostly fielding? And I and the rest of the thread can give you better input.
Most competitive builds of Admech are centered around Cawl rerolling Big Robots (Kastelaons), smaller robots (destroyers), and Onagers. Maybe with some Dragoon support. Not uncommon to see a Dakka knight as well. This list is built around shooting everything and burning command points for mortal wounds and if best played centerboard with a maximal line of sight.
Assuming this trend here are some weakness this force has.
Admech has little to no mobility (exceptions for teleporting and infiltrating but if they use those, no Cawl). Premeasure and make sure on first turn, nothing you have is in range of his Dakkabots. This will force him to move and significantly reduce his BS. Staying out of range and using LOS blockers to advance will be key to denying his powerful guns from being useful. Cover wont help you as his phosper shots ignore it. So you MUST stay out of range and use LOS blocks. Tangent here, most people do not seem to be playing 8th edition with any LOS blocking. You must have at least 2 large LOS blockers on the board and ideally 3 with several smaller ones.
To kill the Robots, treat them as any other MC. Lazcannons are idea Autocannons are pretty good too. They have T6 and 6W and a 3+/5++ or a 2+/4++ however if they have the the latter their shooting is significatly reduced due to only firing half the amount of shots in favor of the increased save. Four Lazcannons should ensure the destruction of 1 a turn (dice gods can be fickle). Lazcannons outrange them and should easily wound them and take them straight to their invul. A dev squad should handle them nicely. Or if you want mobility and Land raider or Pred won't feel to threatened from Dakkabots as their high toughness/save and wounds will make them poor targets for Dakkabots as they love to shoot infantry.
Destroyers are significantly easier to kill. They dish out lots of firepowers but have a relatively weak chassis. Anything is pretty good at killing them due ot thier mediocre save. Boltguns will do a decent job but you'll need some numbers as they have T5 and 3Ws. Heavy bolters will probably due fine and plasma will wreck them especially overcharged for the 2 dmg each. If you cant range them with artillary or heavy weapons, a drop pod with 4 hvy bolters and some meat shields should wipe out a squad of them. (give them auspex to deny their cover canticle to put them at a 5+ armor save). You might be tempted to not fire missle launchers or Laz cannons (or other high yeild weapons) at them but do it anyways. These units are so expensive that even just killing one does huge damage to the Admech player. Your single marine with a Lazcannon is about 35pts, if he kills one Destroyer he has killed a 75pts model. So do it.
Onagers. These guys are tough and powerful, easily the best unit in the codex. Treat them like Leman Russes with a 5++. Best way to kill them is in melee. teleport a terminator squad with thunderhammers, or chain fists (for that sweet extra damage) and charge em. They will die, and if they fall back they cannot shoot. Either way its a win win for you. You can shoot them to death, but that 5++ reroll 1 and 3+/2+ with canticles can make them difficult to blow up from afar. And due to the Onagers extremely good death beam, you'll be hard pressed to win a fair shoot out, unless you have better numbers or target saturation. Again, Lazcannon are the way to go if you want to shoot them. These might be your #1 target priority based on what weapons he has. Chances are they'll be equipped with Nuetronl laser for its super high S and AP-4 with min damage of 3-6. Laz Preds wont want to go toe to toe unless you get first volly. Devs are better here as his massive death beam can only kill one marine per shot. Making it huge overkill (remember to take 10 man dev squads! Those meatbags are worth it!). I highly recommend Melee to kill them.
Cawl: dont bother shooting him with small arms fire. Go big. Missle, Laz, plasma all with hurt him. He has a pathetic 5++ meaning anything of worth will kill him just fine. Only problem is, he is a character its hard to shoot him. Melee him with power fists and watch him die with ease.
Fortifications. Putting Dev squads in a bunker or Bastion will effectively make most of his infantry shooting (destroyers and Dakka bots) have no good targets. Forcing his Onagers to shoot your bunkers instead of your tanks and artillery. Denying his target priority will disrupt his entire army and turns. His Onagers cant shoot your tanks, because they need to shoot the bunkers, he needs to shoot the bunkers because your devs are in there and his dakkabots won't hurt the bunker, which means your tanks can shoot his Dakkabots with impunity and your bunkers should easily hold out 2 turns from his artillery shots.
Admech have no psykers. Make use of your librarians and smite. Admech have invul saves galore but little to no FNP (with one exception but no one plays Gracia but me), so your smite will simply delete if it goes off, which it should since admech cannot deny you at all unless they spend their precious command points, which they wont, cause they need it for dakkabot mars mortal wound spam.
If I was fighting this list as a DA player. I'd take two bastions and load em up with Laz Devs maybe 3 squads two bunkers with maybe all Lazcannons or missle (I prefer Laz). Put some extra dakka ontop Quad cannon and give them shield generators. T10 20Ws 3+/5++ bunker with shittons of firepower. It'll be expensive point wise but it will ruin your opponents entire strategy. Take two or 3 Tactical squads with a Lazcannon and maybe no other upgrade and have them backfield hold (staying out of range or forcing your opponent to move towards them to shoot proper). Their Obj Secured and Laz cannon will make them useful throughout the whole game and probably not even targeted due to the bastions. Laz Pred would be excellent but you'll need at least 2 ideally 3. If you don't get first turn he's sure to blow up one from his Onagers maybe even two. You can build a list without them though as your bunkers might suffice (but lack the mobility of your preds). Land speeders with missiles, can easily outmaneuver and outrange most of the Admech (except those Onagers, you might be seeing a pattern here; kill them first), the High S, decent AP and range will make them useful throughout the whole game. Terminators, those awesome knights with the stomr shields and maces could probably do some work. There is nothing they won't kill in melee, but you'll have to suppor them as they will get focused fired on. I'd take maybe two drop pods, a heavy bolter team and maybe a sternguard squad with combiplasma or melta or a command squad. Take a Captain, Lietent, Ancient, Apothcary and maybe even two librarians along for the ride. This will make your devs, meathshields and sternguard super effective with buffs. Your libariarns cas smite to do some auto wounds and cast Null Zone to stripe the Onagars or Robots of their invuls. Rerolls to hit and wound, reviving fallen, buffing with powers and smiting should put a huge hole in thier force once the heavy bolters and sternguard open up. (meltabombs are not a bad choice either!)
Hope this assuming overview helps. lemme know what the exact list your playing against and what you can field and I can help you better. I play lots of Marines and Admech so I know both codexs by heart.
Also if you and your buddy aren't playing missions. Start doing so. 8th is so boring if your just doing kill points. Try out the other missions, they are actually quite fun and dramtically change the way you play and list build!
rvd1ofakind wrote: Cawl is a must take in every AdMech list. He was nerfed. Any questions?
So improve the TPD? Maybe give us some more unique characters? Maybe don't have garbage FW traits, warlord traits, and relics?
Your take is a bad take.
Ah yes. Because here is the quote where they said they didn't make Dominus better...
Uhm
Uhm
Oh wait that does not exist(not saying it WILL happen). Cawl WAS a problem. He had to be nerfed. However the rest of the army should be buffed to compensate as they are not doing well WITH the "broken HQ".
Also it might be +20 pts. We don't know.
Why is the kneejerk reaction: omg Cawl costs 400 pts now?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Cawl is a must take in every AdMech list. He was nerfed. Any questions?
So improve the TPD? Maybe give us some more unique characters? Maybe don't have garbage FW traits, warlord traits, and relics?
Your take is a bad take.
Ah yes. Because here is the quote where they said they didn't make Dominus better...
Uhm
Uhm
Oh wait that does not exist(not saying it WILL happen). Cawl WAS a problem. He had to be nerfed. However the rest of the army should be buffed to compensate as they are not doing well WITH the "broken HQ".
Also it might be +20 pts. We don't know.
Why is the kneejerk reaction: omg Cawl costs 400 pts now?
Another bad take.
Not a single person said he cost 400pt. Given his 250pt right now is pretty overpriced, anything beyond is egregious. Even 20pt is 20pt too many when he should really be about 200-225.
He was not a problem really - he isn't a CC monster, he can't take a lot of punishment, and really only offers a re-roll bubble and double canticles as reasonable perks. The problem is that he is a singular character HQ among our overall crap HQ selection. That GW chose to raise Cawl's points says a lot and leads me to believe the TPD won't get a fix.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Cawl is a must take in every AdMech list. He was nerfed. Any questions?
So improve the TPD? Maybe give us some more unique characters? Maybe don't have garbage FW traits, warlord traits, and relics?
Your take is a bad take.
Ah yes. Because here is the quote where they said they didn't make Dominus better...
Uhm
Uhm
Oh wait that does not exist(not saying it WILL happen). Cawl WAS a problem. He had to be nerfed. However the rest of the army should be buffed to compensate as they are not doing well WITH the "broken HQ".
Also it might be +20 pts. We don't know.
Why is the kneejerk reaction: omg Cawl costs 400 pts now?
Another bad take.
Not a single person said he cost 400pt. Given his 250pt right now is pretty overpriced, anything beyond is egregious. Even 20pt is 20pt too many when he should really be about 200-225.
He was not a problem really - he isn't a CC monster, he can't take a lot of punishment, and really only offers a re-roll bubble and double canticles as reasonable perks. The problem is that he is a singular character HQ among our overall crap HQ selection. That GW chose to raise Cawl's points says a lot and leads me to believe the TPD won't get a fix.
I have to agree. Cawl is appropriately costed currently. I think the Dev team missed the point (debatable since we don't know the full changes) the reason why Cawl was an auto take is because the TPD is laughably overcosted and his aura is "meh" at best meaning, most people (who plays mars, because they made mars have arguably the best faction benefit) play Cawl since he is only a few point more the an TPD and is tremendously better. To raise Cawls cost makes no sense currently (maybe it will once we read the full changes). All they really needed to do was make the TPD with his full Wargear cost 90 pts. Or they could do the smart thing and keep his point currently but increase his buffs or alter his abilities: TPD can repair two models a turn instead of the usual one. TPD Aura add +1 BS to all Admech and rerolls 1s to all Skitarri. Bam. Worth his points and maybe even Mars players might take one.
Why in the world they picked on Admech HQs who have the worst in the game (points wise) is very unnerving to me. Maybe I was wrong when I said I think they will only make Admech worse, maybe they actually did change them up dramtically. And maybe... Just maybe... It won't be for the worse. (I doubt it.)
Yeah Cawl going up in points is interesting. I found him useful where he currently is, if he goes up by more than 25pts, it's gonna get pretty tough to justify him over a dominus.
Crap as always. No real design or serious excuses.Only becuase players decide to play the models? what should we do put a dominus and go down the ladder more? i dont get it we dont have any hq options and they increase the points.ho is the genius in this company that does not see the obvious.
2 hq only tax no real buff .Not even like a sergetnt buff no synergy between our dogmas the only thing they see point increase .If you are demented you just cant change.
From codex till chapter trash ad mech.A single option to make a dakka line and thats overcosted now. We gotta buy only what they want period. They give index to sell onagers then codex to sell priests they release single model Cawl goes out of stock and then nerf him. Clowns a company of clowns.
and they will do this crap yearly with chapter approved i guess they just wanna sell all boxes each semester.
Nothing to do with game nothing to do with community nothing with game balance .Nothing at all. Cawl was nerfed already a simple buffer for trash canticles with no real tankish stats as it was once and now overcosted. Can we play with out hq? what you want ad mech to do .Stop playing what is the f design stupid company ok codex was released fast and didnt had enough playtest ok i tolerated enough stupid value codex . Now this crap.And still the lot of this ad mech community here justify it. well sorry i just wont tolerate it again from these clowns. Wont w8 whne the company decide what they wanna sell next so i can see a faq buffing a unit.The ARMY is broken badly. Its unplayable has zero fun zero Synergy and who ever has a decent respect for tabletop better play somethign else period.
I dont care about being the top army but i do care of having fun playing it. I will not tolerate one list and one option no more. Dust for my ad mech no more fun here.
I m done with a mech 1-2-1000. Every single option can be done better from other armies with more synergy more fun and easy to do. With simple lists playstyle using all your options from troops and hq. With various options with lists and fun play. Why the f@@ play the broken crap always stupidly designed. One war convocation 7th one dakka list 8th and its the same all over again. Broken Broken broken tax and nothing as result.Nothing. Any serious list from marines ork you name it chaos will run you through with 2 units of elite melee units. gg design for crap. they playtested all armies Liers
Wow, well aren’t we all just a bundle of doom and gloom lol.
I appreciate why they might increase points for models in armies that get used all the time, the problem with ours is that we don’t have a plethora of options to fall back on like most other armies. But we’re also one of the few armies with something to look forward to; as pessimistic as we may be fires of cyraxus is still on its way, it is a book focussing on us, tau and red scorpions. No other armies have that on the horizon. The fact that we lack several aspects in our list that other armies already have means there’s plenty of scope for improvement.
It’s logical to assume that if our only good hq gets a points increase other options would be made more attractive. Despite what you all say I don’t see any significant evidence that GW has totally given up on admech. Of all the imperium factions only us, sisters, inquisition and smurfs got specific new characters recently.
Sure our codex was a rushed hash job and it’s going to take a lot for it to be as competitive as some of us may like. But as much as we’d like for them to roll out a whole slew of new models all at once that’s not a good practice in any business model. You cannot measure success accurately or promote sustainable growth if you flood your ‘market’ with lots of new things all at once. It’s one of the newest factions andthere are over a dozen other armies everyone is also screaming for updates, new models and improvements to. We are not the only ones.
This doesn’t help or alleviate our frustrations, but i’m no pessimist, until they show us what’s through the door there’s no sense in doom-talking like we know what they have in store for us. Today’s chapter approved update they specifically mention under used units are a focal point for improvement; that’s good news for us because 70% of our army is underused !
So we’re getting points drops to units that we might not have considered before because they weren’t efficient enough for their rules. We also haven’t seen the rest of the matched play rules updates, we already know character targeting is getting tweaked and also that there are forgeworld updates in this book. Decreasing other armies options or ability to abuse the rules is tantamount to increasing armies that weren’t able to previously capitalise.
I know I said I’m not a pessimist, but I’m not all that optimistic that secutarii will be included. They weren’t ever in an imperial armour book, so I think it’ll take a forge world book release, like fires of cyraxus for example, to get an 8th datasheet for them. Or as mentioned an imperial knight codex. Again, we are not the only ones lacking forge world rules for 8th edition.
Every update they release has little gems of hope for improvement, you just have to keep an open mind.
I'm also not quite ready to jump on the old doom-and-gloom train, don't get me wrong, it's quite likely that we won't get the tweaks required to make us competitive enough but I'm not really ready to say that it's going to be all negative simply because of a cawl point increase. Look, was Cawl undercosted? Maybe not, but he was overused, so as long as TPD drops in points I don't really have to much of an issue with it.
The thing I'm hoping for is that all units will have more parity on a viability scale and if they look at which units sell they can probably getr some idea about what need improving (though hopefully they'll have more methods than that since infiltrators and ruststalkers are in the same box) So point tweaks all around might be enough to shake some life up in this army. The only thing I'm upset they didn't include in the codex and that I feel unlikely to be added in CA is a TPD on an ironstrider. That would have been awesome, and might have added several new tactics to admech, like the option of having an uber-mobile unit of balistariis running around buffed by a character harassing the backfield.
Oh well, hopefully Cawls new point cost won't be too large and will be balanced (or more than balanced out) by other point changes.
All hail the Omnissiah!! May its binary choir guide us through this turbulent time. May it lower the costs of Breachers and Destroyers by 5 points base. May it make Breachers Hydraulic Press either grant AP-3 and D3 damage like the powerfists its supposed to be or make it it no suffer -1 to hit.
May his 0 grace make ruststalkers reborn into a wholly different ruleset. And bless the Infiltrators with w significant points decrease. My the might 1 favor our HQs and grant a points decrease to both the Dominus his ever loving servant and his propagator the Tech priest to wheres they are no longer overcosted. May the holy machien ghost bless thy first born servitors to cost only 8 pts with servo arm.
My its holy divine logic place reason and logic into the minds of the rules writers to bring back all the weapons and tools so callously stripped from us, his loyal servants our wargear we so desire. A moment of silence for Dataspikes, infoskuls, and Onager melee weapons/repir kits.
Despite these hardships, we gave thanks to thee Omnissiah, for despite our forlorn disposition, we have the coolest looking army in the game. Ahem.
A curse upon the hereteks of Games Workshop for blaspheming against our sacred cause. They have made my Infiltrators utterly ineffectual. In every game I’ve played with them, they charge a unit, prime their powerswords, and bounce right off. No kills, and wiped out. Always.
LexOdin9 wrote: Hey lets keep it cool in here guys so we don't get this thread killed, please?
Legit this thread is the only thing I care about on dakkadakka. If it gets banned again I'll leave and not come back.
Eh, we are all just complaining about GW, not going after each other.
The mods are hair-trigger here though. Don't want to give them even one reason for them to exercise their authority.
word, every little thing sets them off. I've been warned for making a joke that everyone but the mods got and wasn't even controversial.... in this thread. BTW the mods consider ANY FTFY posts as intentionally offensive. The joke goes right over their head.
here's something i've been wondering for a while now. Why? not just Admech, EVERY codex has been rushed. it's been book after book week after week from the 8th edition release. once their done probably early feb what is GW going to do until 9th? no new books traditionally would mean no new units but that just isn't an option for a company like GW.... so what's next?
I mean we still have Fires of Cyraxis right? thats early next year I think or so eveything seems to point to and while an expensive fix in terms of cost we will be getting access to some pretty cool stuff.
Also maybe they will do some points reductions on some stuff, they are with plauge marines etc.
Most of you don't really get it. It's not a simple change of points. We have no other option. Forget auras range point bla bla +1 -1 canticles. New codex gave most armies a -1 to hit. We could make a competitive almost dakka line cause of Cawl. Cause his text writes reroll all hits. All. Giving your bad bs 4+ vs air you don't have vs -1 hit you need to pay to have vs your bad balistic on robots kataphrons and generally Cawl was the only viable way to ensure you could get a dakka line able to withstand different armies.
Wanna imagine all you that say it's ok we gonna take dominus what will you list do if need again. To get icarus and neutrons etc etc etc . If we didn't have enough points to play before with super powered Cawl in a defence dakka line you won't stand even the simpliest of chances now.
The codex is broken. There is no other army that can't customise his army list he and detachments like ad mech.
Why cause you don't have nothing. No flier for -1 mobility unit. Moving 20 bla bla. No run charge no transports no psychers. All these options where diminished cause you had an opportunity neutron and Cawl. Now guard got Los weapons with bs 4+ cheap troops. Elite units that can buff melee or buff dakka or moral or both. Regiments to improve your playstyle. You got what??
What?? What does ad meh have vs any super competitive army.
I remove Cawl. For 2 dominus you get what? Robots bs 5+ vs enemy chars? Rerolling ones good luck. You gonna rush Dragoons on a flier?? You can't.
Vs pshychers wanna see what mortal spam does to dominus and robots?? What you gonna fit icarus and neutrons all over again? So what bs 4 icarus for real? Kataphrons bs 4+ reduced cost why so you die every plasma shot? What arc enemy transports with str 6? No Cawl you go worse shooting than guard why cause you just got same bs over the board and you don't shoot twice nor los. Good luck with your dominus crap.
You removed Cawl great trash now all bs 4+ . For what so gw can see we only got dominus and he will do what . What take his crap relic and go die. Single shot. Can't range can't melee no buff can't heal other dogmas can't buff other dogmas . Do what exactly 100 points dominus so what will you get brigade ? Got any free relics for cp? The codex is bad we got. Nothing to prevent us from taking a cheap company commander for 5+/5+ cp . Nothing better than default deep strike tempestus. Nothing vs flier vs enemy chars. Every single enemy char pass through your lines? You will do what with 6-7-8 command points? Inf dominus inf Dragoons priests? What. And every single unit paper. Even if you do so paper units no options no buffs no sergents no reroll nothing. We struggled with Cawl to get a proper fight and now again all over crap?
I don't know what exactly you want out of cyraxus or gw but this codex is hardly fun. It's gone beyond fluff beyond competitive? They make an experiment and they laugh with guard in our face. Marines more elite guard more dice we just don't have a spot in a d6 system. Orders rock canticles suck. And we got Cawl nerfed in new edition and now out of lists. It was almost bad to get Cawl with few units now?? What 300 point Cawl would be effective to buff now?
5 point reduction to kataphrons and do what? More dominus to do what? Exactly walk then on the board cause bs4 with no Cawl makes you worse than guard before you even start about no hq no auras no options . None of your units got any ability. Any all need to pay cp . And even then still no run charge no invu no psyck defence nothing basics. Deep strike inf bla bla pay for them. With what enginseers . They forced us to use the dead weight already now dominus . Sad but even 30 points less even 15 point more on Cawl is really bad. You just can't make changes like that when not all armies are the same. You want ad mech versatile with cp then give a different option on cp gain bla bla. Rest are clown talk. Point for point you better off play Marines or guard as is it is from now on. Or just sit and get beaten up. Any serious list beat this enginseers dominus crap.
Played vs chaos? Seen guard lists on table? Marines ? Blood angels tyraninds orks what you gonna play vs and have fun when you cry from npan enemy troop. No options Cawl star no more ad mech no more good luck in a year or two again. Maybe then they will fix the onager typo chart . Dream on they even bother with what you say. Only thing they see are stock and sales. Now they need to sell faq and sell. I'm sorry won't go there. Marines and eldar and care kess
Roboute went up 20 points in the leaks. If Cawl goes up 20 points he is still auto include. The Cawl nerfs suck, but if other way out of line crap is nerfed too then it won't be soooo bad. The malefic lord nerf will tone down a lot of the chaos lists. I will say that if Morty/Magnus stay the same ... then admech will be in a near retirement state. Cawl + dakkastar was only hope of dealing enough mortal wounds to keep up with high invul save units. I will decide whether I buy my LVO ticket based on chapter approved. I predict that I will likely be running something like I posted earlier:
STYGIES
TPD + 3x1 Icarus + 1x4 dragoons
CADIA
commanders + 3x10 guardsmen + many, many artillery
CADIA
psyker + more artillery
Having read heard of the Cawl nerf, I think a robot nerf is probably in order. Everything I used in blizzard games got nerfed on a monthly basis. Might as well happen with the robots too. All that synergy and point efficiency is extremely powerful relative to the crap admech codex. GW will likely be doling out nerfs based on intra codex power imbalances, not based on inter codex power levels.
If it's proportional to Girlyman, then Cawl will cost 264 points. Which is not too bad...
Funny how I was just showing a list that doesn't need a Cawlstar though. We do have a fallback. Well, assuming you want to shell out for 10-12 Ironstriders.
The best thing anyone can do, for me to never again take them seriously, is to say "GW HATES MY ARMY".
Why.
Why would a company that wants to sell toy soldiers hate their customers that give them money?
Why.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
Your reaction should not be "OMGWTFBBQ we're ruined, they hate us."
It should be: "interesting... I need to see the whole picture though."
Now if it turns out to be a huge price hike with nothing for compensation - sure, go on ahead and spam GW or FLG that they made dumb changes. That would actually be helpful. You think if they got a 100 of messages with VALID complaints (not OMG YOU HATE US but actual comparisons substantiated by facts), they'd ignore that?
rvd1ofakind wrote: The best thing anyone can do, for me to never again take them seriously, is to say "GW HATES MY ARMY".
Why.
Why would a company that wants to sell toy soldiers hate their customers that give them money?
Why.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
Your reaction should not be "OMGWTFBBQ we're ruined, they hate us."
It should be: "interesting... I need to see the whole picture though."
Now if it turns out to be a huge price hike with nothing for compensation - sure, go on ahead and spam GW or FLG that they made dumb changes. That would actually be helpful. You think if they got a 100 of messages with VALID complaints (not OMG YOU HATE US but actual comparisons substantiated by facts), they'd ignore that?
I don't have shares in gw. They can clearly see whole community asking every single step of their design for more. Index came we anticipated codex . Codex came we asking for faq. Faq came we now want chpter approved. Now fires.what exactly you don't understand and what more should a community do to get the message going? Did you see any ad mech force anywhere? High tier anywhere? Did you see any list viable? Anywhere even with the broken Cawl star broken Robots you did what? Did you win ? Can you do it? Go ahead they suppose to have playtested all changed the whole edition and they have been up down points for months now. What you bubbling about? If they want to hear there is plenty of messages and some v v good ones.
Ad mech is broken and if I am to play 2/3 detachments all the time mrines or guard with a Cawl removal it's ad much off the picture. If we used so far a spearhead and that was difficult imagine with out the broken op 250 points Cawl. Why ??
It's now clear to me they release changes only on sales. That's it. Has nothing to do with armies how they play etc. Was obvious also on guard codex that is beyond and every single player said it will do interested and it did. How much more feedback you need. Best order to guard bat troops cheap hq cheap units in all slots. Customizable options and hq . Regiments to complete playstyle . And more then stratagems for extra flavor.
You got what onager was good now guard par. Good bs now guard better. What exactly is this army doing here? Hat is their flavor? Stratagems that we don't have points to use? Large units that w can't take more than one? Hq buffs relics that have no synergy to make a plan? What exactly you playing here? Are you a range dakka army I can make a better one with 4 different armies. Buy some razorback or spamming lascannons gg. With a lieutenant and n hq . Run charge fll back shoot -1 to hit deep stike infiltrate blambla bla transports bl bla flier bla bla psych bl bla . Every single option w pay with cp. And no way to get some while guard sums 12+ wtf. With 5+/5+ yeah sleep tight they gonna fix everything in fires of c. Yeah sure. Dream on. Take now Cawl nerfed ND maybe you LL get 5 point on kataphrons great worse than guard in. Heartbeat. Welcome to the dark ages . We make every single bit of technology and we can't use it as well now.
What a crap fluff playstyle general rmy this turned out to be. Nothing not even one list atm. You he one now you don't. Let's not be pessimistic I heard this crap all the way from index reelase. Nothing new on codex nothing now and guess what nothing new in fires. If you still believe sitting here talking about thing I'll improve cause this is a hobby and gw will fix it you only gonna get another Nerf soon enough and again you wonder. They are clueless and will only care selling atm and its stupidly obvious. Got it?
Aother astra militarum win. What a great balanced game this is? Where is Cawl once more? the overpowered hq? where? Balance excuses sales driven changes only. Crap company for a hobby period
Very interested to see how much Celestine and Cawl will go up in points.
Hoping some other things will drop in price, so I can keep playing my new list:
Imperial Soup
Spoiler:
Soup Brigade:
Celestine
Greyfax
Company Commander: Warlord, Kurov's Aquila
predzink wrote: Very interested to see how much Celestine and Cawl will go up in points.
Hoping some other things will drop in price, so I can keep playing my new list:
Imperial Soup
Spoiler:
Soup Brigade:
Celestine
Greyfax
Company Commander: Warlord, Kurov's Aquila
rvd1ofakind wrote: The best thing anyone can do, for me to never again take them seriously, is to say "GW HATES MY ARMY".
Why.
Why would a company that wants to sell toy soldiers hate their customers that give them money?
Why.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
Your reaction should not be "OMGWTFBBQ we're ruined, they hate us."
It should be: "interesting... I need to see the whole picture though."
Now if it turns out to be a huge price hike with nothing for compensation - sure, go on ahead and spam GW or FLG that they made dumb changes. That would actually be helpful. You think if they got a 100 of messages with VALID complaints (not OMG YOU HATE US but actual comparisons substantiated by facts), they'd ignore that?
I can tell you're new to this hobby *or not aware of its past. GW is infamous for the last 20 years of playing favorites and simply not supporting certain products they sell. Orks, Tyranids and the sad SOB are good examples of how whole product lines can be ignored or abandoned for decades at a time.
rvd1ofakind wrote: The best thing anyone can do, for me to never again take them seriously, is to say "GW HATES MY ARMY".
Why.
Why would a company that wants to sell toy soldiers hate their customers that give them money?
Why.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
Your reaction should not be "OMGWTFBBQ we're ruined, they hate us."
It should be: "interesting... I need to see the whole picture though."
Now if it turns out to be a huge price hike with nothing for compensation - sure, go on ahead and spam GW or FLG that they made dumb changes. That would actually be helpful. You think if they got a 100 of messages with VALID complaints (not OMG YOU HATE US but actual comparisons substantiated by facts), they'd ignore that?
I can tell you're new to this hobby *or not aware of its past. GW is infamous for the last 20 years of playing favorites and simply not supporting certain products they sell. Orks, Tyranids and the sad SOB are good examples of how whole product lines can be ignored or abandoned for decades at a time.
not without good reason.well at least not without good business reason. We rag on the GW of the past for making bad business decisions but the fact is the more popular armies get more releases for a reason, they have more players. should GW create a new kit for army x with 2000 players or army Y with 20..... well maximum sales for army X is 2000+new players, max for Y is 20+new players. will releasing the kit add 1980 new players of army Y? that's the business decision GW has to make.
that said, as mechanicus or SOB it can be frustrating.
I feel like this is out of hand. Everyone chill out until we see the full point changes. Could make a lot more of the army viable. Personally I'm really hoping for infiltrators to get a minor decrease.
I can tell you're new to this hobby *or not aware of its past. GW is infamous for the last 20 years of playing favorites and simply not supporting certain products they sell. Orks, Tyranids and the sad SOB are good examples of how whole product lines can be ignored or abandoned for decades at a time.
The keyword is "HATE" not "focusing on other factions"
linds14sr20det wrote: I feel like this is out of hand. Everyone chill out until we see the full point changes. Could make a lot more of the army viable. Personally I'm really hoping for infiltrators to get a minor decrease.
Agreed, I mean we have a small snapshot of a bigger picture and if they have been looking at the lists for Ad Mech that are the go to then they know they need to do somethingf with with Kataphrons, infiltrators etc to A: shift those kits off the shelves and B: make them appear in more lists the easiest way and the cheapest cost wise on their end is just to adjust their points down. Or at least I really hope that is what they do.
Hoping for infiltrators to go down hoping for destroyers to go down. And do what? You had one list trying to survive in competitive and you talking about inf. 120 points deep strike uzi. Clueless . All I hear is wait. Wait for what one year to merge armies ruined army flavor. Index ruined all unit abilities nerfed all all there is no ability left in our units. Faq waited again to destroy all hq . Dominus for 135 points enginseer for 52 . Astra militarum 42 points enginseer. Waiting for codex. Parody. Broken Robots rest trash synergy zero army can't even heal with that one he we have different dogmas. So tax pay 4 hq doing nothing and all units loose synergy. Can't use invu reroll on onager from different dogmas. Can't use broad spectrum 9 points upgrade and two troops dogmas can't share it.
They try to return the army flavor with stratagems and they did but forgot to design a system so we can get them. Not possible to make enough points when all other armies use cp for the extra mile a reroll and we gotta use cp to deploy. Make dominus give free cp or give relics or make cheaper hq. Or something? We have the stratagems no way to make even close to playable . On top of zero units transports fliers mobility nothing even the simple scout or dunestrider rule the army became a stationary dakka. Again waiting for chapter for fires for new faq bla bla . Every single payed channels spamming how much value ad mech has when the army can't make a second list. There is no single ad mech list viable vs codex armies. All community shouting about guard they reduce points make a superb codex we still waiting to see . Winning one tour after the other we changed all list 40%+ to guard all imperium armies broken with guard . Now Cawl point increase. What the f is this change gotta do with the army . Where did you saw Cawl Excell so much to be in need of point reduction. How is any point increase justified even 5 points what did Cawl did to need 5+ points . When he is not even half as tankish as it was hen he is. Sitting buffer in our lines and mob cleaner any serious char kill him . Any 200 point char kills him. Why popular? What we gonna take between useless he options . Why we took Cawl because we had 10 options ? We shouting for more he and gw says we LL increase the one you got. What kind of stupidity is that.
Who really cares if they make a stupid infiltrator unit 20 points less so what? You gonna remove Cawl and take an infiltrator unit. You rock . What you gonna remove Cawl and use Robot and kataphrons bs4+ vs cross wide armies with -1 to hit . You for real? Even spamming armies like guard has better shooting and no los. Why would you play ad mech for the looks? When you won't be able to compete nowhere? We had strong robots cause in order to use them you play with great weakness. Cant move don't have screener enough to offence and defence etc. Now what? We can't even shoot?
I know what is the problem guard . We take so much guard cause it's cheap and we need to get nerfed.
Plz I don't want to hear more about wait fires or new faq or see the changes or they will! Bother fixing anything they had numerous chances ND they only care of other armies. Period. And forget competitive I'm with you I play my army I have my story but... It's no more fun. Can't fit units can't take option. Don't have options don't have models. Never take anything new ever. Nothing gets fixed codex with typos . Yes the code we waited for some yers to unite our armys they released it copy paste!!!!!
It's no fun not to be able to field units when you go so few. Why ply rustalkers ? Kataphrons why make a list. No working way to make fun armies. Where is the fun when I take a troops and get smshed from the lower gun in game. Pay 100+ same paper unit and no chance to make something else. If you take any combination to survive again you split your army. Pay tax to unit doing nothing. You can't make a vnguard deatchment an outrider battalion nothing effectively to synergy. Nothing and gems wasted not have enough to make a plan or even if you make enough you can't have big unit to us either effectively.
It has no fluff no fun no synergy dos not feel you doing anything than field Broken robots default and that's it. You have zero contribution zero fun in this army no more . And if you can't see it you have not played ad mech enough to see it. 1-2-100 when you don't contribute to the list or can't change nothing of really value. When you forced to play robots one way. When they clearly state we won't change nothing other than points in an army not able to work properly then we don't need to talk. And Cawl increase with no rules changed forget competitive ad mech. Even 5 points. When they decide to make this a viable working army with few but Ood options not only expensive pew pew we'll talk ad mech. Now it broken period. Don't see it ? Don't want to see it? Good for you but enough with 5 points reductions won't do nothing to play other units. You won't even make a detachment to play it. So please spare us.
Simple example you wanna play infiltrators. They cost 100 reduced 20 . You put them where? Vanguard with tax enginseer datasmith? What in another formation? Where and while all others use stratagems you won't have. Either way whatever you decide you end up paying tax for units that either way underperform. And not only you can't use your lit to be balanced vs enemies you can't even use command points to try to come to balance with others. Whatever you do you just gotta pay more. And that is trully boring after 20 + games . Same o same o. Same after same after same things. You got eventually no participations with this army.
Make other units appear in lists !! Why is that our problem? We didn't use them cause they can do anything? Is there points the problem? I could use infiltrators cause it's the only unit with ability deep strike I don't have to pay extra why w don't use them? No options Pay 120 and pew pew?? Other options? No nothing? Can't have other elite units to make a vanguard? Do you got hq to make a deep trike plan? No so I'm gotta filed a unit solo with no other option. Reduce them in points great and what happened? You can now have an hq with tnem? An aura? What sorry tempestus cheaper with aura with plasma and rerolls . Oh sorry not rerolls orders so you can do whatever you need to . That's why is called strategy. Hy I gotta play 105 same with a pistol ?? And that is for all ad mech. No dunestrider no transports no fliers no rules on units. You won't have any options at all. Make it 50 and at last make it a swarm. That what all other armies do. If you are elite you got options if you re pleb you get numbers. A unit solo deep striking with t3 lost all! Fnp all options the blind grenades the zealot or relics to at least say we take a risk . Nothing it is zeroooooo. Got it? Better I take f horses with Krieg than this. And some say it's good they look in our army they nerfed melee attacks on inflitrators day one don't you worry they just wanna keep you there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Death guard I m reading cause I got Mortarion for a paint job. New army bla bla . With their codex their hq . You can take troops in mass or few. You can make. List only with troops. Take an ha to buff range melee leadership bl bla bla options. Not everything I working fine nor all units cost efficient. But you can play have fun make a list different want today to go rush melee you can wanna make a dakka line you can. Won't win them all you LL try some units some combos bla bla bla . What is so difficult to understand. None asked to be perfect or top just be able to play his army units in a proper way. Some got better tanks other better troops what I the freaking problem? Ork marines dark eldar guard all armies I get involved play the f game. Why ad mech need to be gimped?
With one aura reroll on shooting not like Marin's only on shooting and we are op. We can't charge we can't defend overwatch we can't melee we can't move can't fall back can't run charge .wtf is a ONLY shooting phase reroll 1 op. Then your game is crap!!!
200+ plasma destroyers you spend points to have them die first second .if the survive (your enemy is noob) spend 2 cp if you got also robots to make a them bs 3+ with dominus reroll 1s only shooting phase. If you happen to roll 3d6 6 shots you are worse Than plasma caliver cost 14 points. Still you must take other options from Cawl. Wanna check 200 points tempestus with orders?? Wait more for 5 points reductions you suddenly gonna make ad mech work. Sleep tight !!!
Pay for an army of buy 50e /Dragoons just to play one list. Not including anything else. Sure dream on gw and you wait more.
I would definitely use both flavours of kataphron and sicarian if they were cheaper.
What they do is not the problem for me, it's how much it costs to do it and how easily/likely they are to die for those points.
Kataphrons are glass cannons with a heavy infantry price point. Sicarians are hit-volume melee infantry at a melee-specialist price point. Thats my problem with them.
Both flavours of priests are well-priced for what they do. The only reason we dont take them is because we dont have a reliable delivery method and they move at a regular pace so they end up virtually depleted by the time they get to do anything.
Perhaps a few ppm cheaper on our melee units, due to lack of delivery method, and I would glady run corpuscarii up the field and take the colateral losses to get them in. You do not ignore 10 of them coming at you. And any time dealing with them is time not dealing with something else. If they were 11 or 12 ppm you could afford to take some collateral for a 100-110 point squad.
My biggest irk with our army atm are the function of our HQ units. They're a ranged buff bot and a non-entity heal-bot. They only buff ranged units,however they have decent enough melee ability; But they dont have any synergy with our melee units. As someone pointed out to me we have one of the very few HQ units (TPD) that is actually decent at range. Most HQs have short range pistols or melee abilities. TPD has both good range and melee (barring a sub-par 5++) and they make us pay for both. It might nice to only pay for ranged or melee gear so we can tailor it's role. Invariably you dont take any unit thats good at both range and melee. You take one thats excellent at range or excellent at melee. You want them to have specialist roles. TPD is a jack of all trades, master of none (except being one of the best repairers in the game)
Uh no. tailoring the TPD means getting rid of the omnissian axe, and that's downright heresy for a techpreist. Maybe the addition of a skitarii Alpha that can take an arquebus
Yeah I can only see Chapter Approved as a straight nerf. GW has thus far indicated they balance within the Codex, not codex to codex. This means that obvious choices within a codex will get nerfed to crap without consideration of overall codex performance. Look for phosphor robots to get big point increases since they are so obviously better than everything else. Everything so far has been GW toning down big power combos and obvious choices.
GW was actually struggling in the past because of its outdated business practices. We've come far in roughly ten years. Gone are the days of ordering everything by catalog. We have a website, social media, etc. (Back then, I was mostly a watcher, not a player.)
I don't think this company can continue the sort of behavior of the past. They know it's not good for their bottom line, and their community team will tell them what players are thinking.
Anyhow, if I were designing for Warhammer (my profession is game design), my focus would be on nerfing broken stuff and buffing underpowered stuff for now, not trying to achieve a sweeping balance. Games like this have too many complex interactions for that. Balancing intra-codex would make sense, but it would be done so with an eye toward the entire metagame. Hence why I doubt our codex will get a balance change until more powerful codexes have been levelled out.
Yoda79 wrote: And I would have no issue if we had an army models and any other options!!!
The problem will be that admech will be non-viable above 1000 points in a 2000 point army by the time the nerfs go through. Every T3 model in the skitarii range is flatly too costly as is and there is no way they can bring the cost of skitarii troops down low enough to make them viable in the face of heavy bolters and/or assault cannons. 1 twin assault cannon kills 50-80 points of T3 admech models a turn and it costs something like 35 points after the nerfs. If an assault cannon razorback ends up costing 90 points ... it still kills the same 50-80 points of admech troops a turn and 120 points of admech troops cannot possibility kill the razorback before it shoots (18" range on 6" movement versus 24" range on ~12" movement). The armies with viable troops sections either have (1) transports or (2) troops that cost 3-4 points or (3) troops with 4++. Chapter approved point fixes (which will be nerfs on Cawl and Phosphorbots) will not bring T3 models that cost 8 points and have no transports into viability.
EDIT: here is what it would take for skitarii to be viable if the points costs stayed relatively the same:
(1) adeptus mechanicus rhinos/razorbacks (2) an HQ option for a skitarii Prime that provided some benefit to skitari infantry (enginseer does nothing for skitarii foot)
Without these things the entire skitarii model range is a joke. If your opponent brings vehicles that have high volume of fire weaponry, then you just lose.
Its more that GW is fairly apathetic about our army after the initial run, cause we're not Space marines, nor the chaosy flavor or space marines
Even though as I recall, the year it released, the Ad mech line was the biggest sellers of the year for GW, proving the market is there if they just give us more stuff, or even access to FW stuff in 40K.
Rather them hate us, than apathetic, hate still provides attention to the line
I'm very interested to see what they do with the phosphor bots. I don't think they need to be increased in points, as they are so static if you use them with binharic override, otherwise you're waiting a turn plus paying for a datasmith. I can see the powerfist version getting a significant decrease though. As I said before what I wanna see is the Kataphrons and sicarian units get a buff. I think everything else is actually okay.
I don't agree that our codex isn't balanced compared to other factions. Sure guard are the obvious counterpoint, but we've been seeing gw actively try to tone down that book. I've had great success with my list at a bunch of local events, and I feel this book can go toe to toe with most other books. I played a crazy optimized guard list at my last event. Walking up to the table I felt I was gonna get my ass handed to me based on what I'd read online. Actually ended up being a great game that I managed to squeak out a win! At the minimum codex to codex balance has been the best it's ever been (I am also a dark eldar player, and good lord they were atrocious in 7th).
My list relies on vanguard greyfax + 2 eversors and 2 culexus assassins (the rest is spearhead mars cawl + kastellans + onagers, stygies battalion enginseer + rangers with arquebuses, 5 Dragoons). The assassins are in an interesting place now, as the character rule changes will mean the worst abuses with the culexus will no longer be a thing. If they also go up in points that's gonna be a big deal for my list.
My list relies on vanguard greyfax + 2 eversors and 2 culexus assassins (the rest is spearhead mars cawl + kastellans + onagers, stygies battalion enginseer + rangers with arquebuses, 5 Dragoons). The assassins are in an interesting place now, as the character rule changes will mean the worst abuses with the culexus will no longer be a thing. If they also go up in points that's gonna be a big deal for my list.
Wait, did they finally fix character spam? I must have missed that.
i'd still seriously like a hard answer from GW as to why they won't fething give mechanicus transports. They don't even have to make new models just throw the chimera/Rhino into the dex. Boom. More sales more money for GW. Imagine Vanguard running 2x5 squads with 2x plasma each, Imagine how much more viable the other forgeworlds become.
Metallica basically acts like tallarn for Admech, then ryza, omg imagine ryza with priests in chimera.
You just dont get it. There are no changes.There is nothing new.They only increase decrease points. Unfortunately this is exactly the behavior that brought ad mech in this place to begin with. No design up points don points sell much use much up points not used enough down points .Where the army has nothing to work with.Its Broken. dogams dont work toghether from healing to invu saves or even broad spectrum. We are only army that our leadership buff cant work between dogmas.
Ad mech does not have even the basics to work with its lists. You pay for every single option you wanna have every single one
Mainly cause we dont have customisation options hq auras.No option like phychers utilize powers accordingly or buffs deepending on stratagems. you cant depend on gems since you need them for infiltration etc. You cant have buff cross dogmas. you dont gain any single option as army any. same goes for names stratagems. if you take skitarii you loose cult buffs. if you try to fix cult low bs you loose skitarii. The design will not work to make a plan. It just has either no units. cant play elites with cult priests skitarii sicarans and datasmiths wont even make a vanguard. and even if you do enginseer 52 points tax all the way. If you take a relic will buff only infantr or only skitarii. if you take troops spam you cant use the most important stratagems for bigger units. if you take bigger units you cant take enough gems to play the units or have anything else in your army cause of tax.
Yes it ca be eploited to have more gems as allies but what is the problem to add some ore units to make viable detachments? why is there a problem to have more hq? sergents like all other armies? preists to give extra melee att? any form of buff for viable plans. Any plan. techpreist giving dunestrider or giving canticle run charge or fall back shoot ANY option anything to make an army have options. Melle options or mobility where is the problem with scout and dunestrider? maybe a reroll charge something viable on a unit we dont have to pay??
if it was only cost then the "broken Robot Onagers Cawl " would have been winning all. There is a point issue sure maybe some tweaks but most armies got some. and its not 50 points the problem. ITs how your point eventually work out as a list!! Its a design problem.Not enough units hq elite buffs etc. no viable plan after Cawl and that is already measured and failed. they nerf it again ok and what will ad mech play? if the overpowered list failed? if overpowered Cawl did nothing.What exactly are we talking about 5 point on infiltrators or destroyers so what? you still got no option none.
as the game works they did a good job limiting options sure balnced no since not all armies got a fair amount of tools. simply put. Its one thing to have some op units and balance them out and another to have ONE CHAR one list and nerf it every single faq. Cawl released moved to 8th nerfed Robots again 5+ return nerfed dual shots different targets nerfed. Static dakka 6 wounds. Broken ok increased points ok what will you take for them again we gonna spam 6 onagers then what increase onagers? this is getting ridiculus. Maybe works for playtested armies marines etc. Ad mech needs design revamp mainly options more commnd points? more hq? auras? relics? unit abilities? seriously. and i dont care if they cost more as long as we can f play some strats and not scarce units as allies.
Its more that GW is fairly apathetic about our army after the initial run, cause we're not Space marines, nor the chaosy flavor or space marines
Even though as I recall, the year it released, the Ad mech line was the biggest sellers of the year for GW, proving the market is there if they just give us more stuff, or even access to FW stuff in 40K.
Rather them hate us, than apathetic, hate still provides attention to the line
You do realise that's most of the armies they are "apathetic" to...
EDIT: good thing I made sure all the bits I put into my ESBatteries can be unconverted! 115 points lol. That is a little more than a basilisk at 108. EDIT: fireraptor is -60 points, that brings it to almost viability.
EDIT: ad mech basically got +200 points in a 2000 point list.
Fulguraites - 16 points (0 cost weapon) Breachers - 30 base [from 35] (+ 6/20 and 4/5) . arc breachers now cost 40 points a model at cheapest, down from 47, I will bring a unit Destroyers - 30 base [formerly 35] (+ a 30/27 and 8/10) // ggrav destroyer is now 66 points a model, which is iffy. Like almost viable. Still needs MARS to hit a damned thing Infiltrators - 16 [from 18] Rangers - 7 [from 8] Vanguard - 8 [from 9] Dominus - 115 [down 10] Enginseer - 35 [down 5]
Celestine - 200 + 25 + 25 for geminae // this was a smart nerf, no one took the geminae and at 150 points she was always flatly better than another ONager Cawl - 240????? but doesn't include wargear? LOL THEY DIDN"T NERF SKY NOT FALLING BUY BUY BUY
Terminus Ultra is comically viable if you can buff it at 250 points base before the lascannons.
EDIT RIP RIP RIP Astra militarum, get wreckkkkkkkked Concripts are 4 points Astropath is 30 ) - Manticore is 135 Primaris psyker is 38+12 for 50 Ratlings are now 7 base Taurox Prime is 80 base plus 20 for the gatler, like ripppppp
SUMMATION: yeah, a whole lot of BS got nerfed hard. But admech got the buff. So yeah, run admech. Run big 2000 point lists of admech. LOL -10 points on the Cawlstar. WHCommunity team didn't read the leaks. Cawl at 240
Oh yeah, triumphant is the right word. All the terrible cheese ass daemon stuff from FW that was ruining the game got stomped on hard. And with the Ynnarri nerf, pretty much all the terrible things admech is afraid of are now managable. MARS / STYGIES is now totally viable with all the nerfs to the obviously overpowered daemon stuff.
Huh. Kataphrons still aren't cheap enough to be appealing. Very happy Fulgurites came back down and that Infiltrators went down. Looks like GW nerfed a lot of problems overall though, so this seems good for the game.
EDIT: destroyers are still waiting on the bunker and terrain rules in Chapter approved. If bunker went down a good amount of points, I could see bringing them since they won't insta die.
EDIT: destroyers are still waiting on the bunker and terrain rules in Chapter approved. If bunker went down a good amount of points, I could see bringing them since they won't insta die.
Bastions are expensive but worth it in my opinion. So many wounds, exceptionally high toughness and excellent visibility. And the heavy bolters only cost 8pts now!
I still think we need non-LOS shooting to stay in the game. Or we need Celestine's full 250 points with 2 girls running around the board. If ITC ends the terrible headhunter secondary mission punishment of Celestine ... then I might bring her back.
Ranger Sniper squad 5 (35) man with sniper (25) 55 for a sniper squad. Not bad.
Or a 10 man squad (70) with 3 arc rifles (12) is 82pts.
Or with 3 Plasma 42 A 5 man squad (77) or 10 for 102. I actually think those are reasonable numbers. I might... Actually take Rangers as my special weapon squads and just keep Vanguard vannilla.
Fulguraites - 16 points (0 cost weapon)
Breachers - 30 base [from 35] (+ 6/20 and 4/5) . arc breachers now cost 40 points a model at cheapest, down from 47, I will bring a unit
Destroyers - 30 base [formerly 35] (+ a 30/27 and 8/10) // ggrav destroyer is now 66 points a model, which is iffy. Like almost viable. Still needs MARS to hit a damned thing
Infiltrators - 16 [from 18]
Rangers - 7 [from 8]
Vanguard - 8 [from 9]
Dominus - 115 [down 10]
Enginseer - 35 [down 5]
HQ - 30 1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila
Heavy Support - 324 1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1190
HQ - 240 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 950 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
6x Kastelan Robots - 15x Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Stygies VIII Outrider Detachment - 455
HQ - 47 1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1999 points 6 Command Points
Question: Do you think people would let me use the Phear Crawler conversion (Quantum Cannon on Dunecrawler Legs) as a stand-in for Basilisks? I think a 130mm base is larger than a Chimera's body, so if anything, it would be a modeled disadvantage...
Considering that robots weren't nerfed, and a whole lot of stuff was ... I actually think phosphor bots only got more dominant with chapter approved. GW actually just left them wholly unnerfed, even gave them 10 points with 240 point Cawl. The only thing I am actually afraid of now are Chaos Obliterators, which somehow escaped any kind of nerf. number 2 at socal open had 6 squads of those things.
Well I’m not gonna be the one to say it. Let’s just be grateful and move on lol
Interestingly Infiltrators are now 22ppm regardless of which loadout they have, which is how it used to be.
Ruststalkers still needed, something. I mean there’s now only 2ppm difference between the two sicarians. Taser goads and firing in CC more than make up for the one less attack so why on earth would you pick ruststalkers now? They’re somehow in a worse place than they were before lol
Phosphor serpenta is still not worth 4 points I mean...when a storm Bolter is now two points...yeah, they’re still off the mark with that.
No-one is gonna take an enhanced data tether at 5 points either.
Heavy arc rifles for 6 points is pretty darn frugal, a squad of breachers isnt replacing vanguard or rangers as troops choice for detachments, but they make a pretty sneaky anti-light vehicle cell. I’ve only just realised we have no strategms or anything for arc weaponry...hmm. That’s a shame.
They’re also not gonna get me to use torsion cannons, especially when heavy arc rifles are less than a 3rd of the price when all I’m paying for is wounding most vehicles on a 3. I mean I guess -4 wipes out a Russ save but anything with an invulnerable save there’s much less difference between -2 and -4.
Servo arm is just a flavour of power fist now at the same price point, which is fair. If only kastellan fists weren’t double the cost for essentially less str and no -1, but your WS is at 4+ anyway so it’s virtually the same. Still way over costed.
And finally making the eradication Beamer cheaper isn’t incentive enough for people to drop Icarus or neutron for it. 115 points for a Beamer onager though... that’s pretty interesting if you compare it to a robot that’s only 5 points less. Swap your 6 robots for 6 Beamer onagers...I mean you lose your volume of shot and your wrath potential but just the hilarious ness of putting 6-8 onagers down on the table how would you fit all those bases lol
Overall i’m pretty happy with that, it gives me some options. I like options.
Octovol wrote: Well I’m not gonna be the one to say it. Let’s just be grateful and move on lol
Interestingly Infiltrators are now 22ppm regardless of which loadout they have, which is how it used to be.
Ruststalkers still needed, something. I mean there’s now only 2ppm difference between the two sicarians. Taser goads and firing in CC more than make up for the one less attack so why on earth would you pick ruststalkers now? They’re somehow in a worse place than they were before lol
Phosphor serpenta is still not worth 4 points I mean...when a storm Bolter is now two points...yeah, they’re still off the mark with that.
No-one is gonna take an enhanced data tether at 5 points either.
Heavy arc rifles for 6 points is pretty darn frugal, a squad of breachers isnt replacing vanguard or rangers as troops choice for detachments, but they make a pretty sneaky anti-light vehicle cell. I’ve only just realised we have no strategms or anything for arc weaponry...hmm. That’s a shame.
They’re also not gonna get me to use torsion cannons, especially when heavy arc rifles are less than a 3rd of the price when all I’m paying for is wounding most vehicles on a 3. I mean I guess -4 wipes out a Russ save but anything with an invulnerable save there’s much less difference between -2 and -4.
Servo arm is just a flavour of power fist now at the same price point, which is fair. If only kastellan fists weren’t double the cost for essentially less str and no -1, but your WS is at 4+ anyway so it’s virtually the same. Still way over costed.
And finally making the eradication Beamer cheaper isn’t incentive enough for people to drop Icarus or neutron for it. 115 points for a Beamer onager though... that’s pretty interesting if you compare it to a robot that’s only 5 points less. Swap your 6 robots for 6 Beamer onagers...I mean you lose your volume of shot and your wrath potential but just the hilarious ness of putting 6-8 onagers down on the table how would you fit all those bases lol
Overall i’m pretty happy with that, it gives me some options. I like options.
lol imagine screening with them, they're basically or close to, leman russ's in durabilitiy with that rerollable 5++ and they move and shoot without penalty.
I'm surprised the point changes were so sweeping. This actually might be a bad idea in the long run. >_>
Automatically Appended Next Post: After more thought, I realized that minimum Rangers are not as good as Guardsmen, but come 6 points cheaper (assuming you bring a Boltgun on the Sergeant). In fact, the barebones Stygies Battalion has dropped a whopping 25 points.
Another fun fact: you can squadron the Basilisks up to cut down on units.
So new list, this one is minGuard+Mars+Stygies (and without an illegal detachment like my last list):
Spoiler:
Cadian Patrol Detachment - 71
HQ - 30 1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila
OH. And this crazy thing, which I was looking through my lists and realized that I finally have enough points to do:
Spoiler:
Cadian Supreme Command Detachment - 124
HQ - 124 1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Forge World: Stygies VIII
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Forge World: Stygies VIII
Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 340
Fast Attack - 340 5x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Custom Super-Heavy Detachment - 1536
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Total: 2000 points 6 Command Points
This one is pretty neat because all of your Canticles are going to one dedicated melee unit. Also, all of the Tech-Priests get access to stratagems and whatnot because of your lone Auxiliary unit even though they are in the Guard detachment as advisors.
So yeah, lots of new possibilities with all these free points.
As said nothing really changes. 70 points in a pure ad mech list already using breachers .changing one enginseer for a dominus.
WOW
still a good change but ... need lot more work on ad mech.
Hq options relics auras synergy buffs etc.New units each slot to make proper detachments. Options still not there
Overall I'm quite happy with this as we got the buffs I expected without nerfing kastellans. We left Chapter Approved stronger than we came in and that's a win but I still can't grasp the ruststalkers. Comparatively speaking they're even worse now! Fulgurites went back down to 16 and infiltrators went down 2/4ppm, so couldn't they at least have gotten that decrease? Oh well, I guess I'll just pretend they don't exist.
And even though they still aren't quite good enough in my opinion I might try and field som katphrons, shame they didn't drop another 5 points though
I know alot of you guys aren't keen on breachers but I love them. They look awesome and now with this update me fielding 3 squads ofthem just freed up like 80 pts from my lists. I'm excited!! Though I agree ruststalkers are hot gargbage but they look really really cool.
I play mostly Graia and/or Lucius. The Refusal to yield is nice to have on my blolbs of Rangers and Vanguard but Lucius with its teleportation strategem and ignore -1AP have proven to be super good.
I cannot tell you how many times Heavy flamers or bolters have unloaded into my Breachers and my opponet is like take your save at -1 AP and I just get to grin and be like "Well, with shroudpsalm, my breachers are 2+ still."
In depth points things for AdMech(remember. Something with an offensive upgrade should ALWAYS be better as your sacrificing durability per point by increasing the pts value of the model):
Cawl – uh… sure…? Wasn’t he supposed to increase in price as he is a must take?
Dominus – needed a pts reduction. -10 is not enough. Cawl and Enginseer(as they got a reduction too) will continue to dominate the HQ slot. Eradication Ray and Phosphor serpenta are still much worse than their counterparts when they should be better.
Should’ve been 90 pts base, the weapon prices should switch as the upgrades are worse and cost more right now
Enginseer – needed a pts reduction. -5 is not enough. Still has a dumb overcosted servoarm attached to him. Why wasn’t that changed? Just make it cost 2 so servitors would actually be viable. Enginseer shuold be 30 base + 2 pts for the arm as he is just a tax. He can’t shoot or fight at all.
Breachers – needed a huge pts reduction. -7 is not nearly enough. Torsion cannon remains a complete joke that should be free to be viable. Arc Rifle remains an anti vehicle weapon with STR 6 and AP 2… Seriously. Read those stats again… Defense wise they are almost good. However the rules of the game go against them. Multi wound units are a lot weaker than the same amount of 1 wound units.
Destroyers – needed a change in their durability somehow or a big pts reduction. Right now they are OK at doing damage but their durability is one of the worst in the game and they can be targeted as soon as turn 1. Why take these when DakKastelans exist who do similar damage and are way way waaaaay more durable.
Fulgurites – needed a pts reduction because their durability is terrible. -1 is most certainly not enough. Why were they increased to 17 to begin with? They don’t do much damage as their weapons work against multi wound models (which are not popular as screening units) and they aren’t that much more durable even with they 3++ buff because they still remain toughness 3 trash.
Cospuscarii – needed a pts reduction because their durability is even worse. Least durable unit we have. Completelly unchanged despite seeing 0 competitive play.
Kastelans – unchanged. Melee is way overpriced still and sees 0 competitive play. Ranged should’ve gotten a price increase as they are a no brainer.
Datasmith – needed a pts reduction. Powerfist got fixed. Might actually be taken now as a fill for elite. Probably not though. The insta protocol switch is too powerful in most cases to bother with these.
Servitors – stated as the worst unit in the game. Remains unchanged. Thanks. Why does servo arm still cost 12 again?
Vanguard and rangers – still outclassed by most troops. Upgrades still terrible on slow, fragile, vulnerable to morale bodies. Pistols still useless. Melee weapons still useless.
Infiltrators – still outclassed by most deepstrikers. Terrible durability. If they whiff their charge – they are really bad.
Ruststalkers – UNCHANGED?!?! What??? The deserved their price cut in half (not even kidding)
Balistarii – Unchanged??? They are outclassed by every other artilerry we have…
Dragoons – Unchaged? The ranged version is terrible and no one in their right mind would ever take them as ranged.
Onagers – Eradication Beamer still sucks and the worst one (phosphor) remains unchanged.
So what actually changed at the end of the day? Vanguard and Rangers good better but still not great. Breachers might actually be used to screen(doubt it). Overpriced HQs are now less overpriced.
What didn’t change: every useless unit(Breachers, Destroyers, Ruststalkers, Balistarii, Servitors, Datasmith, Dominus) and upgrade(too many to name) are still useless and probably won’t see any play. Wah wah…
And all that are changes for the already broken codex.
Even f you get those changes for the units we got we d still miss.
Hq cheap options customisation auras melee options
Troops tactic options like dunestrider run charge etc.
Elite option to be able to make detachments from high point units to cheap ones.
Heavy if you don't plant to get you transports then I d recommend a good mobile one.
Fast if even the fliers don't suit your design then we should start considering mobility for all the army .
Relic revamp. Need to have option to regain command points since a an army we got all our options in stratagems . Either give 1-2 when you take dominus or. Give a 5+ like guard.
+++ Point reductions for the paper army.
Make rustalkers 3 wounds each and give then a princep able to take a relic for free or equip gear abilities etc. Any from inf ,run charge extra move something. And options for melee. We are almost cyborg army and we got zero augments. If they wanted they would have done a lot.
Want to increase the points i care not but this should become a viable army soon. Increase points give option fast!!
Jesus I know some stuff costs too much but some of the price changes you ask are just madness, Ruststalkers should not be 10 pts each when they can deal a mountain of mortal wounds with a little luck (have done it before). Free torsion cannon ? You want a T5 3W 3+ model to shoot at S8 AP-4 for 35 pts ? Be realistic please, some people believe AdMech is already pretty strong when facing my lists, I don't need people to start thinking I win my games because I have an OP army.
I'm happy for all the point changes described in CA, I think Ruststalkers should've got a reduction but not a drastic one. Or just give them their grenades back for Mars' sake.
Really happy that I'll be able to field more Vanguards without feeling like I'm doing self-harm. They shouldn't cost less than that honestly, my hypothesis is they're balancing AM with the knowledge that we'll get a transport with FoC, so no need to have 5 pts Vanguards. And now that the enhanced data-tether is way cheaper (5 pts) building full units is viable. And that's all I need. I'll have to build models with the data-tether now though :/ I won't be crying anymore when I see them getting slaughtered in one volley because of my bad save rolls.
My battle Dominus just got cheaper ! Eradication Ray is a great weapon, even better now. I'll never forget that game against Salamanders where he successfully finished a 2W Ironclad in Overwatch, then proceeded to kill a dozen SM and Scouts by himself in CC and with the Macrostubber.
When you're playing full Stygies with 3 plasma Destroyers you're happy to have them because Kastelan Robots are not made to shoot regular vehicles without Wrath of Mars. I've had great results so far with my Destroyers, using some Stratagems it's even better. Some people are almost calling them OP but know that they know they're to be shot first they'll see they're not really tough. The 5 pts reduction is most welcome.
Weird that they haven't adressed the servo-arm issue when it's clear it needs adjustment.
I literally compared Ruststalkers to similar choices and had to cut price in HALF to get similar durability and damage per point.
Torsion cannon is complete dogcrap that doesn't next to nothing. 4+ to hit, remember? ONE attack. So 3 attacks. Shave half of for hitting. 1,5 potential wounds. Shave half of for wounding. 0,75 to go through invul saves. Ok 0,5. Times 3,5. Wowee 1,75 wounds on a Knight for 3 torsion cannons. Sure is worth a third of a knights cost. Meanwhile a knight annhialates all 3 breachers in one fn turn
And yes, using a comma is superior than using a dot to separate decimals :p
Sure on average without any re-rolls you might not do much, but one day you'll be lucky and your opponent might not, and you'll strip 18 wounds off in one go and he'll look at your 90 pts unit calling them broken. I mean a Scions command squad full of meltas cost 104 pts post-CA and it can potentially kill it in one go too, never trust 5+ saves. I laugh at Knights, in my meta full of lascannons and smites you'd just lose 500 pts in a single turn. The bigger they are...
Calculating averages and damage-per-point is good at giving a good idea of the capabilities of a unit, but you don't win games with mathematics. In most of my games my units either brainfreeze or go insane like my 3 Vanguards who survived a round of CC against Genestealers and stomped them the next round. Averages and damage-per-point are nice but don't make up for what could happen in a game. You could be facing a hard-counter army or something so nuts in its composition that your tactics wouldn't matter.
Aaranis wrote: Sure on average without any re-rolls you might not do much, but one day you'll be lucky and your opponent might not, and you'll strip 18 wounds off in one go and he'll look at your 90 pts unit calling them broken. I mean a Scions command squad full of meltas cost 104 pts post-CA and it can potentially kill it in one go too, never trust 5+ saves. I laugh at Knights, in my meta full of lascannons and smites you'd just lose 500 pts in a single turn. The bigger they are...
Calculating averages and damage-per-point is good at giving a good idea of the capabilities of a unit, but you don't win games with mathematics. In most of my games my units either brainfreeze or go insane like my 3 Vanguards who survived a round of CC against Genestealers and stomped them the next round. Averages and damage-per-point are nice but don't make up for what could happen in a game. You could be facing a hard-counter army or something so nuts in its composition that your tactics wouldn't matter.
We won't take for granded one in 100 games and ignore the facts. Math give us statistics and most likely is what you LL face more or less. What you say is your dream world ad mech. And I m glad you love them but they don't deliver in competitive environment. Maybe sometimes could but consistency is a serious issue especially when enemies roll 2d6 and keep best etc. And knight has high toughness and high wound count yes sure it can die and I don't use them but high toughness is what you pay both breachers and knight. Both suck and torsion Cannon is random to say at least. Onager Robots etc. If that was the case then d6 shots plasma destroyers could be awesome . They are not especially when you spend command points to shoot bs 3+ Ryza and you roll 3d6 and get average 6-9 shots. That is a fact and it's what they do and why you loose. While again your enemies for same points get 9 shots default rerolling ones with deep strike. And got points for a second group practically making our units look like dead weight. If it was random for all sure but if you play d6 luck vs steady 5 shots you d loose every single time. Consistency wins you game .
It's not fun to get smashed 80% of the time. While a) you got one list serious b) same strat. Dakka wall c) no options any slot any formation any units etc.
It ends up being the same game all over. And it's bad for you and your friend playing with you. He will get bored from your robots eventually learn to take anti robot list and gg. Play 20 games and you LL see this clearly.
Rest are dream talks. And any one played 10+ games knows ad mech has atm no versatile play as you move towards more serious games. No tour games. Serious ones. When. You friend ask you to bring a list to test his good units. Keep dreaming.
Tip now lower cost troops and breachers can make nice horde list tbh. Not the best but could be something. With special wepaons tons of stratagems Omni and data snipers plasma arc and breachers could be fun!!
Why does servo arm need a reduction? It’s the same points cost as a power fist with one less ap and a straight 3 dmg instead of d3. Though I guess servo arm you can only uses once per fight whereas a power fist can be used for all your attacks.
I actually much prefer the eradication Ray to the volkite blaster on my dominus, for the same reason fulgurites are way better than ruststalkers. You rely on rolling a 6 to wound with no abilities to augment it. We have zero wound roll adjustments so I prefer not to rely on it. Whereas we do have + to hit abilities and re-roll to-hits so abilities like taser weapons have much better synergy.
I do still think all the kataphron weapons should also be cheaper. Guard gets points breaks on their heavy weapons because they’re being wielded by troops that can’t shoot as well as a marine. Kataphrons are exactly the same yet we don’t get a points break for them.
I don’t get all the hate for the heavy arc rifle. Where else can you pay 6 points and get 2 x d3/d6dmg shots with -2 ap. the fact that it’s str 6 means it’s wounding most vehicles on a 4 or 5, which is fine. Because you paid 6 points for it. Otherwise it’d be a plasma or lascannon points cost. It’s pretty well balanced imo. 40 points each now on breachers, they arguably better in combat than kastellans too.
Kataphron destroyers should be cheaper base for sure. They have one less attack and a 1+ worse save. Yet they are the same base cost as a breacher. Not sure how they justify that. If they were bs 3 I’d maybe consider the same cost being viable. Maybe.
Torsion cannon yeah, no. I think i’d Pay 15 points for it. I mean it’s a single shot on a below average bs unit with overcharged-plasma-str, better than most ap and dmg at 24”. I’d pay the current 20 if it were d3 shots. Heavy grav could do with str 6, I’m not sure of its purpose for 30 points. Termie killer? I’d rather take balistarii with autocannon 66ppm vs 75ppm but balistarii is an infinitely better platform.
I still don’t get why there’s no way to improve bs and ws of kataphrons like with servitors, would actually give enginseer a use then. That’s not gonna be changed any time soon now though. Chapter approved is core rules missions and systems updates and points balances. The bi-annual faqs are clarifications for those rules and codexes are few new models, rules and fundamental army changes as before. There’s plenty to improve on with admech, but even with fires of cyraxus our existing options won’t be improved. Not directly anyway. I guess they may add another unit to improve kataphrons with an aura, a transport for melee troop improvement and some form of flying thing to give us some mobility
Yeah said it numerous times. New edition new index codex faq bla bla still not playable or valid other than a broken robot dakka line and when they hear me say I bring robots all my friends go sad face.
I still don’t get why there’s no way to improve bs and ws of kataphrons like with servitors, would actually give enginseer a use then. That’s not gonna be changed any time soon now though. Chapter approved is core rules missions and systems updates and points balances. The bi-annual faqs are clarifications for those rules and codexes are few new models, rules and fundamental army changes as before. There’s plenty to improve on with admech, but even with fires of cyraxus our existing options won’t be improved. Not directly anyway. I guess they may add another unit to improve kataphrons with an aura, a transport for melee troop improvement and some form of flying thing to give us some mobility
It is incredibly expensive at 3 CP total to pull off, but I run Ryza and you can combine the 2 CP +1 to hit for kataphrons and kastellans with the 1 CP +1 to wound and damage on plasma to just evaporate stuff. I run 3 dakka kastellans and 6 plasma kataphrons near a magus. Ends up being roughly 16 plasma hits that wound almost everything on 2s and deal 3 damage a pop, + a bunch of kastellan hits that ignore cover for flushing infantry. I know this combo is not exactly a secret, but it is pretty stong.
I still don’t get why there’s no way to improve bs and ws of kataphrons like with servitors, would actually give enginseer a use then. That’s not gonna be changed any time soon now though. Chapter approved is core rules missions and systems updates and points balances. The bi-annual faqs are clarifications for those rules and codexes are few new models, rules and fundamental army changes as before. There’s plenty to improve on with admech, but even with fires of cyraxus our existing options won’t be improved. Not directly anyway. I guess they may add another unit to improve kataphrons with an aura, a transport for melee troop improvement and some form of flying thing to give us some mobility
It is incredibly expensive at 3 CP total to pull off, but I run Ryza and you can combine the 2 CP +1 to hit for kataphrons and kastellans with the 1 CP +1 to wound and damage on plasma to just evaporate stuff. I run 3 dakka kastellans and 6 plasma kataphrons near a magus. Ends up being roughly 16 plasma hits that wound almost everything on 2s and deal 3 damage a pop, + a bunch of kastellan hits that ignore cover for flushing infantry. I know this combo is not exactly a secret, but it is pretty stong.
Indeed, but regular servitors get a +1 to bs and ws just for being near a tech priest, yet kataphrons don’t. It’s not gonna change any time soon, it’s just yet another item to prove that whoever was tasked with the admech codex knew nothing about them.
Unless a new model pops up with a kataphron-specific aura-buff, which is unlikely. The stuff from fires of cyraxus is the only place we’re likely to get new units from any time soon and that is more likely to be analogous to some of the 30k units. Myrmidons are the 30k kataphron equivalent, but fluff-wise they would be vastly superior in all aspects bar durability, so wouldn’t need any aura buffs.
Dominus – needed a pts reduction. -10 is not enough. Cawl and Enginseer(as they got a reduction too) will continue to dominate the HQ slot. Eradication Ray and Phosphor serpenta are still much worse than their counterparts when they should be better.
Should’ve been 90 pts base, the weapon prices should switch as the upgrades are worse and cost more right now
Enginseer – needed a pts reduction. -5 is not enough. Still has a dumb overcosted servoarm attached to him. Why wasn’t that changed? Just make it cost 2 so servitors would actually be viable. Enginseer shuold be 30 base + 2 pts for the arm as he is just a tax. He can’t shoot or fight at all.
Vanguard and rangers – still outclassed by most troops. Upgrades still terrible on slow, fragile, vulnerable to morale bodies. Pistols still useless. Melee weapons still useless.
Balistarii – Unchanged??? They are outclassed by every other artilerry we have…
Dragoons – Unchaged? The ranged version is terrible and no one in their right mind would ever take them as ranged.
-10 for Dominus is great given it's our best non-Mars shooting option.
-5 for Enginseer is very generous.
-15 points for a Battalion is a big deal, I don't know what you're going on about. We have a very cheap troop tax now. We can even do Brigades.
Ballistarii are terrible in small numbers, but very good now in large numbers. I have a post a few pages back showing how the Doctrina can make a unit of 6x Ballistarii quite terrifying.
Dominus – needed a pts reduction. -10 is not enough. Cawl and Enginseer(as they got a reduction too) will continue to dominate the HQ slot. Eradication Ray and Phosphor serpenta are still much worse than their counterparts when they should be better.
Should’ve been 90 pts base, the weapon prices should switch as the upgrades are worse and cost more right now
Enginseer – needed a pts reduction. -5 is not enough. Still has a dumb overcosted servoarm attached to him. Why wasn’t that changed? Just make it cost 2 so servitors would actually be viable. Enginseer shuold be 30 base + 2 pts for the arm as he is just a tax. He can’t shoot or fight at all.
Vanguard and rangers – still outclassed by most troops. Upgrades still terrible on slow, fragile, vulnerable to morale bodies. Pistols still useless. Melee weapons still useless.
Balistarii – Unchanged??? They are outclassed by every other artilerry we have…
Dragoons – Unchaged? The ranged version is terrible and no one in their right mind would ever take them as ranged.
-10 for Dominus is great given it's our best non-Mars shooting option.
-5 for Enginseer is very generous.
-15 points for a Battalion is a big deal, I don't know what you're going on about. We have a very cheap troop tax now. We can even do Brigades.
Ballistarii are terrible in small numbers, but very good now in large numbers. I have a post a few pages back showing how the Doctrina can make a unit of 6x Ballistarii quite terrifying.
Right now you can pretty much forget about the repair special rule as you will always have an abundance of mechanics. So ignoring that - both HQs are overcosted IMO. Compare current Enginseer to current Primaris psyker. Which would you pick if Psyker was ad mech.
Why should the troops be a tax? Are cultists, infantry, poxwalkers, gants tax? No. They are the core of the army. Why does skitarii need to be tax?
Balistarii are god if you keep feeding them CP and are forced to take a lot of them. That's not a good combo at all...
Plus I still need to fit everything into 1k for this particular occasion, and have some heavy firepower and something to handle charges 
presume you’re still screening with imperial fodder?
and having 6 in a squad really makes those strategms that much more worth their 
