Will Wulfey be taking up arms for BAO also?

Cawls 9” bubble isn’t bad after all the nerfs to CP regen and just how meh the other Admech WLTs are

 Suzuteo wrote:
Made some changes:

Spoiler:

Mars Battalion Detachment - 1310
Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)

HQ - 280
1x Belisarius Cawl - Warlord: Static Psalm-Code
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr

Troop - 270
3x Kataphron Breacher - 3x Heavy Arc Rifle, 3x Arc Claw
3x Kataphron Breacher - 3x Heavy Arc Rifle, 3x Arc Claw
3x Kataphron Breacher - 3x Heavy Arc Rifle, 3x Arc Claw

Heavy Support - 440
4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster

Fast Attack - 320
4x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 4x Twin Cognis Lascannon

Graia Battalion Detachment - 210

HQ - 60
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 150
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle

House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 478

Lord of War - 478
1x Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer, 2x Heavy Stubber

Total: 1998 points
13 CP (-3)

Wulfey tested the Icarus Autocannon. Apparently, it drastically underperforms due to lack of Cawl rerolls and any plus hit stratagem. Took the opportunity to just add another unit of Skitarii. I would add the Stormspear, but I am not sure I have enough time to finish painting my new one.

Also, multiple people report that this sort of castle concept with Breachers only works if you make Cawl the Warlord. Also because snipers are apparently everywhere and will gun down an Enginseer really fast.

What about considering the Manipulus as the warlord - give him the static psalm code - would there be some benefit in making his bolster weapons/warriors +3" range?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Will Wulfey be taking up arms for BAO also?

Cawls 9” bubble isn’t bad after all the nerfs to CP regen and just how meh the other Admech WLTs are

Yup.

I think the meta has been really shaken up. We now have the best gunline. (Tau has the best gunline in absolute terms, but we outrange them, so we technically have the better gunline because we have a better matchup thanks to Manipulus.) We have +2 to hit, massive mortal wound output, access to a solo Knight for faction purposes, and above average durability to boot. The only shortcoming we have is a lack of non-LOS shooting.

 The Forgemaster wrote:
What about considering the Manipulus as the warlord - give him the static psalm code - would there be some benefit in making his bolster weapons/warriors +3" range?

Rerolls are more important IMO. Being able to keep Robots, Breachers, and Ironstriders 22" apart is a big deal. I mean, I will have to move within 12" of enemies once and awhile, but my Robots may be rooted.

Cawl Aura is fine with out buffing to 9" for me especially after the changes to fly that again returned ad mech first 1-2-3 Rounds to castle up.

But your list

Especially if you want to move out with breachers go offensive your list does not have a dominus that definetly requires hermeticon and buffs breachers at least with rerolling 1 in shooting and all in melee .

So you dont need hermeticon you dont want breachers to move out till 1-2-3 and they are not fast to move only after round 3 then 100% Cawl warlord. So you actually use breachers only for screener shooter (main role).

You should consider since you will remain castle with breachers to remove a ranger squad or vanguard. add 2* servitors. better campers better melee counter unit and the ability if you want to revive breachers remain.
IF it does not suit you since you got only 9 and units of 3*3 aceptable. But you should maybe make one big unit of breachers and buff it with vigilus for the extra +1 or revive options do the math. I m not sure but if you go against planes i would suggest ( not sure) to make one of your troops go to fill the top battalion and split more breachers to one unit. etc etc if you can make only one an dmake it vigilus all the better especially vs planes. I dont know i believe its possible and better since you seem to already take 6-7 troop units so with vanguards you wont miss mobility to the map.

so your two battalions should look like

3*5 vanguard

2*5 rangers

1*8 breachers
1* servitors

or close to that. As i said not sure but should be valid for buffs.

have you seen the newest regimental standard? (https://regimental-standard.com/2019/05/22/adeptus-mechanicus-announce-new-transport-after-running-out-of-wheels/)

its about our new transport. I know i shouldnt use this as source of official information but it does mention that it uses hover technology and mentions its "open topped armor".

So taking on board a lot of the recent discussion I'm going to try running this list below, the caveat is that I don't have dakabots and would really try to get a list with out them. I was wondering is the agrapinna strat worth losing the re-roll of 1? Would it be better to just have all the kataphrons as the same forgeworld as the dominus? As I'm not really sure how often I would acutally use the fresh converts strat, I'll be pushing the mixed battalion forward while the stygies one sits back with the long range doing it's stuff.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
have you seen the newest regimental standard? (https://regimental-standard.com/2019/05/22/adeptus-mechanicus-announce-new-transport-after-running-out-of-wheels/)

its about our new transport. I know i shouldnt use this as source of official information but it does mention that it uses hover technology and mentions its "open topped armor".

Yeah I really hope they're not just messing with us or it didn't have some kind of stupid restriction or penalty for its open-ness lol

i dont really see any valid restriction because open topped.
Its bulky enough where you'd expect it to be T8, but open topped generally means -1T than usual and nothing else anymore.
I'd be rather surprised to see it be T6 and thats the worst open-topped related thing that could happen.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont really see any valid restriction because open topped.
Its bulky enough where you'd expect it to be T8, but open topped generally means -1T than usual and nothing else anymore.
I'd be rather surprised to see it be T6 and thats the worst open-topped related thing that could happen.

I'd love for it to be venom-level of undercosted.

what so we can be the next gripe-target?
I never want my stuff to feel undercosted, because then i feel like a prick using them since they are clearly better than their points suggest.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
what so we can be the next gripe-target?
I never want my stuff to feel undercosted, because then i feel like a prick using them since they are clearly better than their points suggest.

Oh i know, i was just comparing the venom as an open topped transport and it being open topped doesnt really make it lose something.

 Yoda79 wrote:
Cawl Aura is fine with out buffing to 9" for me especially after the changes to fly that again returned ad mech first 1-2-3 Rounds to castle up.

But your list

Especially if you want to move out with breachers go offensive your list does not have a dominus that definetly requires hermeticon and buffs breachers at least with rerolling 1 in shooting and all in melee .

So you dont need hermeticon you dont want breachers to move out till 1-2-3 and they are not fast to move only after round 3 then 100% Cawl warlord. So you actually use breachers only for screener shooter (main role).

You should consider since you will remain castle with breachers to remove a ranger squad or vanguard. add 2* servitors. better campers better melee counter unit and the ability if you want to revive breachers remain.
IF it does not suit you since you got only 9 and units of 3*3 aceptable. But you should maybe make one big unit of breachers and buff it with vigilus for the extra +1 or revive options do the math. I m not sure but if you go against planes i would suggest ( not sure) to make one of your troops go to fill the top battalion and split more breachers to one unit. etc etc if you can make only one an dmake it vigilus all the better especially vs planes. I dont know i believe its possible and better since you seem to already take 6-7 troop units so with vanguards you wont miss mobility to the map.

so your two battalions should look like

3*5 vanguard

2*5 rangers

1*8 breachers
1* servitors

or close to that. As i said not sure but should be valid for buffs.

I would need to cut two Breachers for that, since I am adding 60 points. I also would lose Cohort, so the Robots cannot run and gun. A lot of my game plans still require me to have a strong Robot alpha. I think you might be right and this is probably the better way to run the army. However, there is a huge gap in experience between you and me on Breachers. I am much more comfortable with Robots, so I will focus on my Robots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question about Breacher use: Do I place them behind my Skitarii or in front of them? And I assume the Knight should stay off to the side to counter charge?

That's pretty dependent in what you are screening against.
E.g. against a Kraken GS bomb I would put Breachers in front. Against things like say a SG bomb I would first use my skitarii

So if it's good against Breachers, put the Skitarii in front? Lol. Seems straightforward enough.

 Suzuteo wrote:
So if it's good against Breachers, put the Skitarii in front?

Basically yes.

So with viable transports are dominuses... dominii..... the big tech priests, viable cc units now?

I'm confirming, a layer of Skitarii ahead of Breachers takes their suvivability quite high. Vanguards+Breachers layered screens have stopped so far dajumped Boyz, Orc Bikes, Tzangoors, a Magnus, and knights. Vanguards have proved to be quite an asset (if any survived) when it came to counter-punching afterwards. It will be significantly weaker setup against double activation units but hey - at least the Zerkers will be forced to fight the Breachers instead of the gunline component.

dadamowsky wrote:
I'm confirming, a layer of Skitarii ahead of Breachers takes their suvivability quite high. Vanguards+Breachers layered screens have stopped so far dajumped Boyz, Orc Bikes, Tzangoors, a Magnus, and knights. Vanguards have proved to be quite an asset (if any survived) when it came to counter-punching afterwards. It will be significantly weaker setup against double activation units but hey - at least the Zerkers will be forced to fight the Breachers instead of the gunline component.

yeah, having multi-layered screens against assault armies is really important. I played against a genestealer spam tyrannid army and forced him to charge vanguards, while my electropriests and dragoons were waiting for the countercharge.

that game didnt last long.

How many infiltrators is enough? Especially when you play around 2500pts?

 Gangland wrote:
How many infiltrators is enough? Especially when you play around 2500pts?

at 2000 i'll usualy try to fit at the very least one squad of 5 for map control.
If i were to paly at 2500, i would 100% take 2 squads of 5, maybe even 3 if the points allow it.

However, infiltrators arent super popular in competetive builds since they only gak with wrath of mars in a full-size unit.

 Spera wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
I'm gonna attend a 1.5k Tourney in a bit. They've got some REALLY harsh restrictions like:

-you can only have one unit twice, everything else must be single squads instead of one Troop choice which you can take up to four times

-must be one batallion

-monstrous creatures and the likes can only be in squads of three max.

So I came up with this for inducing Maximum Rage:

Stygies trait

1 Dominus with necromechanic and lands relic

1 Enginseer

1x3 Breachers with Heavy Arc

3x3 Destroyers with Grav/Flamer

1 Datasmith

2x3 Dakka Kastelans

1 Onager with Neutron Laser and Stubbers


I intend to Castle up in the backfield, shield my Kastelans with the Kataphrons and discourage Close Combatants with the 9 Flamers I have at my disposal.
Then Dakka away at everything and repair incoming damage with my characters if possible.

Also Stygies and 2 rounds of Shroudpsalm (via Stratagem) should help.

What do you guys think? Is that cheesy enough?

phew, those are some harsh restrictions.

I personally wouldnt attend an event that added so many restrictions. I'm guessing these restrictions are there because they want to avoid some sort of cheese that was there is the past.

Some armies cant realistically play a battallion without seriously nerfing themselves.

Just to show that the rules are dumb, i'd bring 2x6 destroyers in a ryza servitor maniple. Sprinkle some onagers in there and add some normal servitors to recycle your destroyers.

As long as those don't apply to every-single-goddamn-event organized there, restrictions aren't bad. They can shake up things a little bit, prevent dumb net listing and incentivize smart and innovative list building. So don't bash them, you may not like it, just don't play it and don't bash.

Mork, well, on what you will use your command points? I don't see many uses for those 8 cp, and admech is stratagem centric.

Annihilation Volley, Double repair, chant for two Rounds of shroudpsalm

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gangland wrote:
How many infiltrators is enough? Especially when you play around 2500pts?

at 2000 i'll usualy try to fit at the very least one squad of 5 for map control.
If i were to paly at 2500, i would 100% take 2 squads of 5, maybe even 3 if the points allow it.

However, infiltrators arent super popular in competetive builds since they only gak with wrath of mars in a full-size unit.

Mostly play casual though we all try to win heh.

Agamembar wrote:
So taking on board a lot of the recent discussion I'm going to try running this list below, the caveat is that I don't have dakabots and would really try to get a list with out them. I was wondering is the agrapinna strat worth losing the re-roll of 1? Would it be better to just have all the kataphrons as the same forgeworld as the dominus? As I'm not really sure how often I would acutally use the fresh converts strat, I'll be pushing the mixed battalion forward while the stygies one sits back with the long range doing it's stuff.

Spoiler:

Battalion Detachment
Forge World: <Mixed>
Specialist Detachment: Servitor Maniple

Tech-Priest Dominus Ryza, Warlord Trait (CA): Master of Biosplicing
Tech-Priest Enginseer Agrapinna

+ Troops [64 PL, 609pts] +

4x Kataphron Breachers Agrapinna
4x Kataphron Breachers Agrapinna
5x Kataphron Destroyers Ryza

5x Skitarii Vanguard Graia
5x Skitarii Vanguard Graia
5x Skitarii Vanguard Graia

4x Servitor Graia
4x Servitor Graia
8x Sicarian Infiltrator Mars

Battalion Detachment

Forge World: Stygies VIII

Tech-Priest Dominus
Tech-Priest Enginseer

5x Skitarii Ranger, 2x Transuranic Arquebus
5x Skitarii Ranger, 2x Transuranic Arquebus
5x Skitarii Vanguard

2x Ironstrider Ballistarius Twin Cognis Lascannon

4x Sydonian Dragoons

Onager Dunecrawler Icarus Array
Onager Dunecrawler Icarus Array
Onager Dunecrawler Icarus Array

I think you're trying to have too many combos/threats in a single bag and so it ends up being kinda messy. First you need to tell us what is your battle plan, do you want to have a static gunline castle, a moving gunline, half melee/half shooting list ? In what will you invest your CPs ? I recommend not mixing too many combos because you'll run out of CP really fast. You start with 12 CP, you'll want to give a 5++ to at least the Destroyers (-1 CP), give them +2 to Hit in the Shooting phase (-3 CP), use Plasma Specialists (-1 CP). That's already -5 CP just in the first turn and prior for the Destroyers. Now with the 7 CP remaining you can give +2 to Hit to the Ballistarii and/or Dragoons (-1 CP each), return a Breacher Squad (-2 CP for 16 PL), use WoM on the Infiltrators (-2 CP). So with the average 2 CP remaining you can deny a psychic power (-1 CP) or use Acquisition At All Cost (-2 CP) and now you're out of CP. Have two big CP eaters in your list maximum or else you'll quickly run dry.

Another advice would be to change your <Forge-Worlds> in a more synergistic way. For example, your Agripinaa Enginseer serves no actual purpose, he can't repair anything except Vehicles and there's no Agripinaa Vehicles. Have him as Graia for more psychic denial potential or even Ryza so that he can defend himself a bit more with his 2 attacks. If you have a Manipulus or a proxy for it I suggest replacing the Enginseer by a Ryza Manipulus so that he can at least boost the range.

Agripinaa's dogma is quite powerful actually, so you might also want to run a clean detachment. Agripinaa Icarus Crawlers are nice in Overwatch, and if you have a Raiment of the Technomartyr nearby it can be even better.

But your list is going in too many directions at once to give clear advice without tidying it up. The ideas are good and the list is, I believe, threatening, but you'll run out of CP faster than a Smash Captain and it might be a little too much TAC. I hope you see what I mean and take it as friendly advice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another subject I'm building three lists (Mars, Ryza and Graia) and I'm wondering where do Hoplites fit best considering they can't have dogmas, Forge-World-specific stratagems, or bonus from any characters. The only thing they have access to for support are Canticles, Doctrina stratagems and the Omniscient Mask, as it buffs <Skitarii>. I'm leaning towards Mars, because multiple Canticles with Cawl helps them keeping the +1S/reroll 1s to Hit. Ryza is interesting in the sense where it's a list with 6 Ryzaphrons, the rest being the usual stuff, as well as CC units that actually benefit from the dogma. So they won't be alone in the front lines, they'll have support from 4 Fistellans and 3 Dragoons, I'm tempted therefore to send an Omniscient Enginseer to support the blob with rerolls.

What do you think ? I've completed my drafts for Mars and Ryza but I didn't include the 10 Hoplites in the Ryza list yet.

Also, are we in agreement to send massed emails to Forge World FAQ service so that they remove the Titan Guard rule that prevents them from having a Forge-World as it makes no sense ? I'm even willing to up the cost to 10 pts/model if they do that. And they'll probably won't be able to ride the Dunerider with this stupid rule.

 Aaranis wrote:

This is a great analysis, thanks, I think I've fallen into the trap of trying to use all the cool toys and I'm hurting myself, I suppose I could just go one batt as Agripinna and the other as Stygies and switch to the Grav for the destroyers since then its a nice guarenteed 5 shots which works out better for the dogma, just need to work the points which if I ditch the inlitrators is easy as to be honest I just have the WoM and getting down the board but mostly they just seem to die, in so that way I only need to care about the fresh convert strat. I want to push the kataphron batt forward so pressure the oppent and get objectives with the vanguard in there helping or maybe use a partol to get access to the graia strat and move the vanguard into there as it seems super helpful to have that but I'm not sure yet.

Overall, do we think the best in faction AdMech army has or does not have a Knight?

I'm having a hard time fitting one in with a Brigade, and I don't think I'll have enough command points to feed a Knight and two battalions.

I think the Knight adds consistency and is very compact. It's an extremely well-rounded way to spend 500 points. There is nothing in particular that a Knight does poorly.

That being said, 3x6 Agripinaa Breachers are probably better. Lol.

If you are doing a Brigade, definitely don't try to fit in a Knight.

In my opinion Ad Mech don't do Brigades particularly well and are best with 3 x Battalions. We've good good, cheap Troops and decent HQs and it's far easier to fit our workhorse units into a set of Battalions than be constricted by the requirements of a Brigade.

Knights are great and synergistic allies for our army, the only fault I find in them is that they take a detachment slot that doesn't provide CP (with the Auxiliary SHD anyway) whilst also being quite CP intensive. That's why I can imagine a Krast Styrix works pretty well, particularly for players that come across Titanic units regularly, as after a relic and WLT it doesn't really need any more CP spent on it.

Problem with triple battalion is that you will be spending lots of points on stupid TPEs

 lash92 wrote:
Problem with triple battalion is that you will be spending lots of points on stupid TPEs

Indeed. Still well worth the sacrifice for 15 CP though and they can still be used for repairing, holding objectives, relics, blocking deepstrike etc but they are pretty terrible for sure.

xlDuke wrote:
In my opinion Ad Mech don't do Brigades particularly well and are best with 3 x Battalions. We've good good, cheap Troops and decent HQs and it's far easier to fit our workhorse units into a set of Battalions than be constricted by the requirements of a Brigade.

Knights are great and synergistic allies for our army, the only fault I find in them is that they take a detachment slot that doesn't provide CP (with the Auxiliary SHD anyway) whilst also being quite CP intensive. That's why I can imagine a Krast Styrix works pretty well, particularly for players that come across Titanic units regularly, as after a relic and WLT it doesn't really need any more CP spent on it.

The AdMech Brigade is awesome. 60 pts to fill all eliteslots? awesome. Heavy support with duncrawlers and bots? yes please. Even laserbalistarii instead of Dragoons are worth it atm. The only problem is the concept behind it and with which forgeworld you want to achieve your goals. But Id always pick a brigade over 3 battalions any day of the week. Esp because AdMech still needs support from other sources such as Assassins and Smash Captains.

I am still a bit sad elimination volley only works for destroyers but not for breachers...

Anyone got any experience with the Graia FW? Combinding Graia and the cybernetica cohort to enable your kastelans to shoot in melee seems like a good way to deal with pesky enemies trying to tie up them. Being able to deny the witch on 4+ also looks handy.

Not sure if thats worth over running Stygies or Mars with cawl though.

A lot of people run their troops as Graia for deny on 4+ but have kastellans as mars for wrath of mars

 Ideasweasel wrote:
A lot of people run their troops as Graia for deny on 4+ but have kastellans as mars for wrath of mars

That's what's I'm doing as well. Having a mixed detachment with Graia, Mars and Ryza, while having a pure Stygies detachment.

Bay Area Open 2019 Battle Report
Day 1

My list:

--

Game 1 vs. Raven Guard (Sniper Scouts, Eliminators, Suppressors, Ven Dread, Contemptor Dread)

Game 2 vs. Chaos (Renegade Knight Lance, Havocs, Daemon Prince, Red Corsair Bomb)

Game 3 vs. Eldar (Hemlock, 2x Exarch, Warlock Conclave)

So I finished Day 1 with a 2-1 record. I am ranked #71 overall and #1 in AdMech at the event. AdMech is a low scoring army, but my score is particularly awful today. Upon retrospect, I realize that this is because of my inexperience with Breachers. I also am realizing that tend to play more aggressively than I should. I no longer have Guardsmen to capture objectives. That being said, every person I have played and all of my teammates think the shooting output in this army is terrifying, and I look forward to refining it, especially when we get transports.

Thanks for sharing Suzuteo.

Day 1 review of your best and worst performing units? Anyone not pulling weight where you hoped they would etc?

I know you took the lastarii for flyer spam... how are they performing for you outside that context?

I don't really think like that. Most units are obviously good and bad on paper. In usage, the good units may be better for specific things, and lists are meant to balance that.

Anyhow, I will post some generalized learnings by the end of the event tonight. A Major is a great place to gather information not normally available at your RTT or GT. This is also the West Coast meta, which from what I have seen is more net-list heavy. (I still have yet to face a Tau, Purge, or GSC list. They are everywhere though. AdMech are a very rare sight, actually; nobody likes the faction constraint.)

The Ballistarii are good. I am quite surprised by how useful they are at killing T4 units, actually. Especially characters.

Great report, clear and concise, thanks it's interesting data (and we love data around here). However I think your Eldar opponent either cheated or was just wrong with Fire and Fade, you can't charge after using this stratagem, it's written in the stratagem.

Best of luck for your remaining games!

 ThePie wrote:
Anyone got any experience with the Graia FW? Combinding Graia and the cybernetica cohort to enable your kastelans to shoot in melee seems like a good way to deal with pesky enemies trying to tie up them. Being able to deny the witch on 4+ also looks handy.

Not sure if thats worth over running Stygies or Mars with cawl though.

I want to try this in one or two of my next games, but I don't play much of late. I believe Graia is a solid forge-world. In my opinion though, if you're choosing a forge-world or two in your lists, you need to commit a minimum to their strengths to take profit from either the dogmas or the stratagems.

Playing Graia, you'll want to play on their dogma "Refusal to Yield" and field a lot of infantry, as they benefit the most from it. Coincidentally, their stratagem works only on infantry. Their warlord trait "Emotionless Clarity" encourages you to play this way too, as you can still shoot with your troops in CC (Vanguards, Rangers and the Cognis flamers/Phosphor blasters of the Destroyers). If you want to play Kastelans that benefit from this rule however I suggest limiting to one min squad and use the trait as a bonus tool, because Kastelans without Cawl are too expensive and susceptible to be locked in CC. Just a BS4+ with rerolls 1s isn't great.

Mars is based on playing around Cawl, and makes for a sort of versatile forge-world thanks to the dogma for double canticles and Cawl's ability. You'll want to maximise your gunline and especially high RoF units for WoM, like Dakkastelans, Infiltrators bombs or even a plain old unit of 10 Vanguards. Corpuscarii work too but they need the transport really bad.
The dogma is useful for all your army, and I believe that lists with a CC focus element greatly benefit from the possibility to always reroll 1s to Hit in the Fight phase and/or have +1S. Otherwise, reroll morale or the all-mighty Shroud are great.

Stygies VIII supports the idea of a defensive long-range gunline, and trades the lethality of Mars for the durability of being -1 to Hit. Before the FAQ they were great for all things CC but now the 9" move limits your area of action considerably. Still great for Dragoons because they have the speed and additional -1 to be Hit.

Agripinaa wants you to field Kataphrons everywhere, and works admirably with the Servitor Maniple. Their 5+ Overwatch dogma is also really powerful, and now that we can reroll in Overwatch too we can allow for a mobile-gunline playstyle that can push on the enemy lines to contest objectives or just get in range, and discourage charges with the mean Overwatch. This synergises well with the Eye of Xi-Lexum, that wants you to be within 18" of the target vehicle. This relic is great as it allows your Breachers to actually breach vehicles, and helps your whole army shoot down a tough target (I'm thinking Knights or the future range of Chaos Knights).

I could give other examples but I'll just wait to see how our playstyle will change with the new Skorpius, be it the Dunerider or Disintegrator variants. Hoping for a preorder next weekend !

On an unrelated note, I finally remembered posting my Belisarius Cawl model on the forum, here it is for you: Salazar Kroze, lord of Stygies VIII

 Aaranis wrote:
Great report, clear and concise, thanks it's interesting data (and we love data around here). However I think your Eldar opponent either cheated or was just wrong with Fire and Fade, you can't charge after using this stratagem, it's written in the stratagem.

Son of a... oh well. Wasn't going to win.

 Suzuteo wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Great report, clear and concise, thanks it's interesting data (and we love data around here). However I think your Eldar opponent either cheated or was just wrong with Fire and Fade, you can't charge after using this stratagem, it's written in the stratagem.

Son of a... oh well. Wasn't going to win.

At least you will remember for next time...

Eldar players are like their armies, all cheap tricks :p

Bay Area Open 2019 Battle Report - Day 2

Added some photos to my prior post. And here's more data:

Game 4 vs. Tyranids (GS + Flyrants + Smite Spam)


Game 5 vs. Deathwatch (Veterans, Terminators, etc.)


Game 6 vs. Space Wolves (Calvary Spam)

--
Unit Evaluations:

Dakkabots are still solid. Of course, I got tied up twice this tourney. I need more screening units or a counter-charger to stop them midfield.

Ironstriders are amazingly good. They pretty much always wound 6-8 times and deal a ton of damage to anything lacking an invulnerable save.

Breachers are not good at shooting, except against light vehicles, and they are not good at fighting. But they are cheap and have a decent body, so there's that. I do think I need more of them if I want to continue playing AdMech competitively.

Krast Crusader adds a lot of consistency to the list. He can function independently and performs decently well against 10W+ targets. But otherwise, he can feel underwhelming and strategically risky. He often has to use his feet to make up his points, and most lists have a way to kill a Knight. Thus, he tends to give up a lot of VP. Another Gang Buster unit would be better, since I have so many already.

He also gets lots of compliments. And that always feels good.



Alas, I am thinking of cutting him in favor of Stygies VIII 6x Dragoons and 3x Kataphrons. I will probably run them 1x6 and 2x3 because I have found that I struggle keeping them all in range of my Cawl rerolls.

--

In the end, I came out of this tournament officially ranked #84 and 3-3 (still the best AdMech), but my teammate, who won our fun game, was rank #45 and 4-2. (I personally think I would have gotten 4-2, but I'm not really in it for a number.)

In my opinion, AdMech is a Tier 2 army (usually 4-2, sometimes 5-1). It's definitely the best shooting list in the meta right now, but it's really underrated compared to Tau. Everyone I have played tells me afterwards that they are intimidated by just how much shooting there is in this list. This list of mine seems to work best using a dominant strategy, not a reactive one. But it has weaknesses. It lacks a true tank with T8 toughness, flying melee units, psykers, non-LOS shooting, and (thus far) a reliable transport. Instead, we have lots of "tank destroyer" type units. Doing mono-faction means you lose access to Wyverns, Basilisks, Guardsmen, or Smash/Shield-Captains, so I do think this pure shooting approach is the way to go for now. Maybe Fulgurites will become more viable with the Skorpius though.

Perhaps falling short of your expectations but well done on best Admech.

Are a lot of people giving up on Soup in your area to be able to rank themselves as mono faction?

I was reluctant to mix and match but since I’ve thrown knights and guard in with Admech I’ve seen better results.

With the new hover boat on the horizon I’m thinking of going solo and looking forward to bringing the electro priests back with a vengeance!

I expected 4-2, and I think I achieved it; I know the number says 3-3, but I personally know that it would have been 4-2 if it were not for the fact that I was matched against my own teammate. It goes against my personal reasons for playing Warhammer if I can't have fun with the people I know. I mean, if we were 3-1 each going into that, sure, he would understand me crushing him to try to advance to Sunday, but if it's just for a number, pshhh.

I do feel less powerful without Guardsmen, though a part of that is just my inexperience with Breachers. In my view, they rarely put wounds on anything. Same for Skitarii. (Rangers are actually better than Vanguard for the anti-infantry use case that I have in mind for them.) But they are cheap and very durable.

Nope. Soup is still king on West Coast. The only thing the faction change has done is to make AdMech rarer. There were only three running it at BAO, and I did way better than the other two.

I still struggle to see the use for Breachers. Is it just because of their defensive profile ?

Well thanks for sharing the battle info. I meant to check out some of the streams but it’s been a busy week for me.

If you can’t have fun rolling dice with friends then why bother

Would you go back to Soup or is that you mono for the time being? And when’s the next tournament?

@Aaranis
Mostly, yes. Their shooting is mediocre; you need to spend 1 CP for formation and have a Dominus to give them +1, but Cawl already gives comparable odds and safety from -2 to hit (77% vs 75%). Their fighting is mediocre as well. They miss 2 of their 3 attacks quite often. And you pretty much need to give your target -1T for them to effectively clear infantry. Still, better than Skitarii.

Their bodies are what make them useful. T5 is the magic number to resist the bolter shots typically used to clear infantry. The 2+/6++ profile is also very nice.

I am already working on a new list. I am considering making the Battalion Stygies and mixing my Mars detachment. Downside is that those Enginseers become totally useless just about. But I save 1 CP and a detachment slot; not sure if I can use it though.

@Ideasweasel
I went to a Major with mono and was the best in faction already; not my best performance though, but eh, it's something. I have no RTT or GT for the year though. Anyhow, I intend to attend two more Majors this year. So I will stick with it. The LVO score will be the most important one.

 Suzuteo wrote:
I expected 4-2, and I think I achieved it; I know the number says 3-3, but I personally know that it would have been 4-2 if it were not for the fact that I was matched against my own teammate. It goes against my personal reasons for playing Warhammer if I can't have fun with the people I know. I mean, if we were 3-1 each going into that, sure, he would understand me crushing him to try to advance to Sunday, but if it's just for a number, pshhh.

I do feel less powerful without Guardsmen, though a part of that is just my inexperience with Breachers. In my view, they rarely put wounds on anything. Same for Skitarii. (Rangers are actually better than Vanguard for the anti-infantry use case that I have in mind for them.) But they are cheap and very durable.

Nope. Soup is still king on West Coast. The only thing the faction change has done is to make AdMech rarer. There were only three running it at BAO, and I did way better than the other two.

What's this talk about the faction change? Did they make it where you need a larger chunk of your army to be one codex to not count as soup or something?

@MrMoustaffa

I believe ITC changed how factions are represented. Last year was based on majority faction in your list. Ie if you took majority 1500 Admech and 500 points of guard you were considered Admech. Now under the new system you would be considered imperium unless you are a full 2000 points in Admech



Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Suzuteo well best of luck for those and keep us posted on the progress. My next one isnt till November.

ITC is a lot more popular in England than Scotland.

But it’s growing so hopefully more tournaments start springing up.

I think I’m going to hang fire purchasing breachers till after the tug boats get released.

@MrMoustaffa
As Ideasweasel said, an AdMech list now has to be 100% AdMech codex. It also includes an exception for one Knight as a SH Auxiliary detachment (because they are in our codex, though we can use the rules from their codex).

@Ideasweasel
Good call. I might just run extra Skitarii Rangers until then as well. I actually had good experiences with them. RF S4 shooting is very reliable; I can knock a wound or two off a Stormshield unit with them. 6+ FNP also can make a big difference when it goes off.

Engineers is a very good secondary for us, an army that sits on its butt and holds out. I always gave it to my two Rangers to camp the backfield with.

Something like this, which is what I am thinking of moving toward:

A returning question but... how do we nowadays deal against 3 knights + addons (Deathwatch for instance) as monofaction list? Apart from the avoidance play. I got this thing 2/3 games in my last tournament, and nothing seems to work well enough.

Options

1) Ryza plasmaphrons 1 unit only glass cannon kills 1 knightish but will be murdered by the other knight shortly after.
2) Stygies dragoons can half kill a knight on the charge and damage resistant 1 unit only
3) Mars Infiltrators wont hit till t2 but can half kill a knight in mortals 1unit only
4) Neutron Onagers bread and butter inconsistant but hard hitting
5) Agripinaa Breachers these with the eye of agripinaa will chip away at knights and the agripinaa strat gives them survivability
6) Hoplites are surprisingly effective vs knights in CC thats 21 s6 d3 dam attacks that you can make hit on 2+ rerolling 1 with a strat + if you take hoplites yoy have the omniscient mask. Mean while when the knight hits back it may take a mortal great vs melee knights that come to you
7) Agripinaa Vanguard spam 8 squads 320pts with the eye of agripinaa and reroll 1's will deal 24 wounds by expectancy benefits of rolling 120 2 dam dice. And rerolling hit/W of 1 even better vs chaos knights

4 heavy phosphor blaster Kastelans with Cawl + WoM + Elimination Volley on average take one Knight down to lowest profile, Breachers and Destroyers can finish it off and partially damage a second Knight. Manipulus can help with an extra 6" on ranged weapons. Neutrons, Arc weapons, Fulgerites, Krast Crusader/Styrix etc. We're not badly equipped to deal with Knights really, though three of them would be quite intimidating particularly if we don't get first turn.

dadamowsky wrote:
A returning question but... how do we nowadays deal against 3 knights + addons (Deathwatch for instance) as monofaction list? Apart from the avoidance play. I got this thing 2/3 games in my last tournament, and nothing seems to work well enough.

You don't. Focus on objectives. Take Kingslayer and kill one Knight, any one will do; I would recommend you do it early, when your damage output is at its greatest. As stated above, we are the army with some of the least Knight worries. Then spend the rest of the time killing as many of his supporting infantry and artillery as you can. Strive to hold more. Things like Engineers is also great, unless they have got non-LOS shooting.

Also, keep in mind that Knights can only fall back over infantry. So he cannot move or charge over infantry. Nor can he fall back over vehicles or cavalry. Mess with his limited movement.

Oh, also keep in mind that Knights only seem scary, but their wound output is mediocre, especially against infantry. Think about it. A Krast Crusader outputs 21 shots on average, but costs over 500 points.

Just curious but why do you play your knight as Krast? Isn't it better to make it Raven?

RiceFields92 wrote:
Just curious but why do you play your knight as Krast? Isn't it better to make it Raven?

he plays it in an auxiliary detachment so the household tradition doesnt apply.

the warlord trait for krast is better than raven's.

he can take the krast relic to kill opposing knights easier. (i dont know if he actually does).

the only thing better on raven's side is the order of companions stratagem, but thats 3 cp and the crusader doesnt have multi-damage weapons

Thanks for the info!

@RiceFields92
Krast has the best Household WLT, which lets you RR1 to hit in fighting and shooting. Also, Crusader does not have enough dakka to justify the CP for Raven.

For Relic, I always go for Sainted Ion (2+) or the Krast Relic (+1D vs. 10W+, another +1D vs Titan).

@VladimirHerzog
Yep. You can see in my BAO Battle Report. Game two, I killed a Renegade Knight in round 1.

Thanks guys. I do not agree about the Neutrager though - the math (and my experience) is pretty abysmal for the loadout. 3,5 wounds on average is not really worth trying IMO.

I am however curious about the Vanguard spam - the mathhammer looks pretty neat on them, considering the points cost, but there's an 18" problem... Did you manage to successfully bring them in range to a knight, before all those Avengers and Ironstorms, and adds like Deathwatch, took their toll? The same question is pointed to the Eye bearer btw.
Plus, how do you deploy all those Vanguards - I can't realistically expect enough ruins for 40 models.

dadamowsky wrote:
Thanks guys. I do not agree about the Neutrager though - the math (and my experience) is pretty abysmal for the loadout. 3,5 wounds on average is not really worth trying IMO.

I am however curious about the Vanguard spam - the mathhammer looks pretty neat on them, considering the points cost, but there's an 18" problem... Did you manage to successfully bring them in range to a knight, before all those Avengers and Ironstorms, and adds like Deathwatch, took their toll? The same question is pointed to the Eye bearer btw.
Plus, how do you deploy all those Vanguards - I can't realistically expect enough ruins for 40 models.

I personally never run more than one neutron laser, its got a major case of the "lascannon effect", i'd much rather use the icarus array.

vanguards dont have to be deployed in ruins since you can use shroudpsalm to mimic the effect. And if youre worried that the opponent is shooting at them instead of the rest of your army then dont be, its a win.

I didn't mean cover with the ruins, I meant LoS. Vanguards will easily give up a lot of KPs unfortunately (forgot to mention I play mostly ETC-like mix , as ITC is practically non-existent in Poland), so I can't afford to lose 8 units just like that. Either to play pure avoidance and to score no kills entire game.

Guys, I need your opinion. I've built three lists each made of 2 Battalions, I tried a Brigade but the FA tax doesn't satisfy me. I'm playing Friday and I'd like to play one of those, so I need an exterior opinion on them. We always play regular rulebook + Chapter Approved 17/18 at my shop.

First list, double Mars Battalions:

Pretty straightforward and classic, it's a typical Cawl gunline, with lots of shooting. The infantry will screen and I'd like to try the Hoplites in that role as a proxy before committing to buying a kit. I think the strengths are a great gunline that can shoot quite far with the Manipulus, and the 3 Icarus Onagers should scare those pesky jetbikes. The weaknesses are that it's fairly static, with only the infantry who'll want to really move, so my board control will be limited to how much I can deny the opponent's control with my shooting.

Second list, double Ryza Battalions:

This list is based on the Ryzaphrons, but keeping the list pure Ryza, so I decided to put the dogma in good use and planned for a few heavy hitters in CC with the Dragoons and Fistellans. It should allow me to cover the board more easily by using Distraction Big Robots. In the strengths I'd say my shooting is not bad in the form of the Ryzaphrons and two Dakkabots for small anti-horde duty, while the Fistellans and Dragoons can screen and wreck a bit of havoc in the frontlines. My weaknesses are how reliant I am on the Ryzaphrons for anti-heavy duty, if they get shot early on my only powerful weapons are the Onagers, Fistellans and Dragoons.

Third list, double Graia Battalions:

This one is written with flexibility in mind and I like it on paper for now. Graia gives me durability for my Infantry, and psychic protection that I can reinforce with a Culexus if needed (I'll use an Eversor if the Culexus is not necessary). What, I think, makes this list flexible is the Manipulus and Emotionless Clarity warlord. If I face a gunline or a CC-shy army, I can move up with almost all my list, even the Robots thanks to Strafing Run. I'm even giving a Taser goad to each Vanguard Alpha as I intend on using them very aggressively as support for the Hoplites and Infiltrators in CC, and they're to stay in range of the Omniscient Mask with all the other Skitarii if possible. With that in mind I should have greater map control and so more objectives contested. If however I'm against a list that wants to come in my face as early as possible, I deploy as a gunline with lots of screens that can still shoot even if engaged with the majority of the guns. My strengths should be this flexibility that should adapt to most situations, it's of course not optimal against some lists but no list is. I also have 75 models on the table, which is 15+ more than my other lists, it should be nice to not be too much outnumbered. The weakness could be this flexibility too, as I'm not certain the list will hold in practice, which is why I need your opinions.

If you could give me your advice on each lists and tell me how I could improve them I'd be grateful.

Las-striders are much better in terms of points and consistency. Lascannons have a great profile, and their only weakness is to hit. But you can move and shoot Striders at 2+ with the Doctrina. Very few enemies are T9. If they lack an invulnerable save, they're usually boned.

Well, you can always move block with the Vanguard as well. And the Knights may only shoot Stubbers and Flamers at them; using Avenger on Vanguard would be a huge win for you. Few take Ironstorms.

@Aaranis
Why not do the first list but with some Infiltrators to help grab objectives or delete units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thinking about this now:

From my prior experience, it may be worthwhile to make it harder to kill my Breachers, since their shooting against non-vehicles is unimportant. Stygies is good for this. I think maybe taking them in larger units so you can infiltrate them is also great for creating depth in your screen.

Engineers is an amazing secondary for us, and having -1 to hit Rangers for this purpose may be useful. Giving the Enginseers some survivability for Scenario 6 is also very important.

Meanwhile, I have not really found much use for the second Canticles for Mars. Having a couple of units of Graia Vanguard for the stratagem is more important.

Only real downside to this is that the Breachers actually can do a lot of damage to vehicles, especially T6 ones, which are common in Eldar and Ork armies.

My list for the Saturday is similar, although will play quite differently. If I won't fail with the setup, the double Dragoons on +1S and Culexus with a fight last aura should hurt the knights, will be decent anti-horde, and overall distraction carnifex that is hard to be shot off the table.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [42 PL, 8CP, 714pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Forge World Choice
. . Forge World: Stygies VIII

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 30pts]

Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 30pts]

+ Troops +

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 40pts]: Enhanced Data-Tether
. . Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. . 4x Skitarii Ranger

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 35pts]
. . Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. . 4x Skitarii Ranger

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 35pts]
. . Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. . 4x Skitarii Ranger

+ Fast Attack +

Sydonian Dragoons [12 PL, 272pts]
. . Sydonian Dragoon: Taser Lance
. . Sydonian Dragoon: Taser Lance
. . Sydonian Dragoon: Taser Lance
. . Sydonian Dragoon: Taser Lance

Sydonian Dragoons [12 PL, 272pts]
. . Sydonian Dragoon: Taser Lance
. . Sydonian Dragoon: Taser Lance
. . Sydonian Dragoon: Taser Lance
. . Sydonian Dragoon: Taser Lance

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [60 PL, 4CP, 946pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [5CP]

Forge World Choice
. . Forge World: Mars

Specialist Detachment: Cybernetica Cohort [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Belisarius Cawl [13 PL, 190pts]

Tech-Priest Manipulus [5 PL, 90pts]: Relic: Raiment of the Technomartyr, Transonic cannon
. . Warlord: Warlord Trait (Mars): Static Psalm-Code

+ Troops +

Kataphron Destroyers [10 PL, 156pts]
. . Kataphron Destroyer: Cognis Flamer, Heavy Grav-Cannon
. . Kataphron Destroyer: Cognis Flamer, Heavy Grav-Cannon
. . Kataphron Destroyer: Cognis Flamer, Heavy Grav-Cannon

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 35pts]
. . Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. . 4x Skitarii Ranger

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 35pts]
. . Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. . 4x Skitarii Ranger

+ Heavy Support +

Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 440pts]
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster

++ Vanguard Detachment (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum) [20 PL, 340pts] ++

+ Elites +

Callidus Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]

Culexus Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]

Eversor Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]

Vindicare Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]

Love the list! Especially interested on how the 4 Assassins pan out.

dadamowsky wrote:
I didn't mean cover with the ruins, I meant LoS. Vanguards will easily give up a lot of KPs unfortunately (forgot to mention I play mostly ETC-like mix , as ITC is practically non-existent in Poland), so I can't afford to lose 8 units just like that. Either to play pure avoidance and to score no kills entire game.

Some things have to die in 40k, yes you give points to your opponents by losing vanguards but you should be able to out-kill them anyway. Lets not forget that the core of imperium soup is spamming guardsmen, which die faster than our troops.

If you are worried about losing too many, use breachers as your troops, they are quite resilient but have a smaller footprint on the map for the same points cost (so it can get quite expensive if you want to screen/deny deepstrike space

Often the best all-rounder lists involve units that their whole job is to die/draw fire. And if they dont die they should be deadly enough to cause issues for your opponent.

I did this in 7th with Tau Piranhas. If they died, they usually drew a ton of fire or anti-tank grade weapons that should have gone after my suits/tanks and not them. If they didnt die, they put out a ton of S5 dakka for how cheap they were and would just devour troops.
They died 9/10 of the time, but in their steed my suits or hammerheads did not have a scratch on them.

I agree so you need either to :

1) rangers with snipers static back field
2) vanguards with one plasma / 5 man
3) breachers tough screen anti tank.

Spamming troos that dont do noting or enemy ignorres them big NO from me.

Even in a horish army I would ad arc in rangers for spam m m .

Still breachers better for me ETC wise. 1/5 s weapon is a good option .

Can I get a sanity check on Mars Grav-Cannon Kataphron Destroyers? I’ve been running mathammer on them and they seems like a versatile unit to use Eliminations Volley in conjunction with the ubiquitous Mars Kastellan Robots that also makes a decent target for Wrath of Mars if something happens to the Kastellans.

 Guardsmanwaffle wrote:
Can I get a sanity check on Mars Grav-Cannon Kataphron Destroyers? I’ve been running mathammer on them and they seems like a versatile unit to use Eliminations Volley in conjunction with the ubiquitous Mars Kastellan Robots that also makes a decent target for Wrath of Mars if something happens to the Kastellans.

i used to like the safe number of shots that the grav cannon over the plasma but theres a few downsides to it.
1. its more expensive than the plasma.
2. has a harder time wounding vehicles (3-4 vs 4-5)
3. cannot benefit from the plasma specialist stratagem
4. it has a shorter range than the plasma, which hits that important 36" range to start outranging other gunliens with the help of a maniuplus.

if the grav gun was the cheaper option, i would totally run it. but as it stands, the plasma does the same job better. an average of 3.5 shots / model is decent as a anti GEQ tool, the -3 AP is good against MEQ and TEQ, and the possible S8 is great against VEQ / KEQ.

@Yoda79
I have 6 games with Breachers under my belt. My impression is that their durability is more important than their ability to shoot or fight. Against Nids, they just blew my Breachers up and ran/charged through. So perhaps Stygies without rerolls to hit over Mars. You have a lot more experience than me so far. What do you think?

@Guardsmanwaffle
In addition to VladimirHerzog's points, Elimination Volley is not a good use of CP unless you have a large Destroyer unit to pair with the Robots. However, Mars Plasma is not nearly as good as Ryza Plasma.

every time i start to answer here i write 4 paragraphs then i delete them.

i cant go again on explaining simple facts. The str and unique characteristics of ad mech . Their ability to kill vehicles with various ways. Still the secret of Mechanicus and you can see it all ove the codex is their ability to get +on hit.

making bigger units is the key that will boost your performance.

3x3 breacher doing nothing especially after fly faq. Told ya many times.
1*9 breachers that get the buff with cawl become bs3+ 18 shots str 6 D6 damage .D6 damge for some 270 points. but you need to do it Cawl vigilus 1 cp to detach ment and 1cp / shootign phase. STill CHEAP
with a dominus and hermeticon make the calc. All you are mathhammers.

breacher bs4+ reroll miss str6 -1 1
breachers arc bs5+ reroll miss str10+ D3 damage.
You need to understand how you are to use breachers and what they will be doing. Since Fly became as before screen lost his power you will definetly need a counter unit.
What ever you place as screen a simple gun line with an asault unti will pass it.

decisions. Make a list with moving parts so ( no Cawl Robots) that i will not support in ad mech forums or ad counter units.

Why Mars. cause even if i like Ryza damage and plasma its for friendly games. You make a unit like destroyers for anti tank. Well tank lists got -1-2 to get hit so your plasma is not good. Mars can buff bs so once more a bigger unit of detraoyers can get WOM +1/+2 to hit etc.

Most cases i need to use cp to get +1 elimination volley on destroyers and +1 breachers to get pass enemy defence vs vehicle lists. even if it is venoms planes bikes Whatever.

thats why i support the balistarii one big group you made and thats why you having good results. its their job. Thats why Icarus with Cawl bring results cause its a bs2 vs fly and bs4+ reroll all vs all else making it a good effective 10 shot vehicle,

And i need to see even in mathahhmer the same for

GRav vs plasma im also ready to make the change on MArs.
Most likely it will provide mre stable results. I know we are stretching but mos tlikely it will be the way to go . Especially if you use neutron along side.

3 onagers should be 2 neutron 1 icarus in my mind. etc.

same goes for the question of troops earlier. I see you spam troops in your lists.
??? either its breachers bla bla or you need to make the smart units we have talked like 100 times here.

what is the problem to make 5 man groups one sniper or one plasma or one arc w/e you need have etc points. Same goes for all the rest.

Ad mech isseu and problem from the release of the new edition was that to be effective be able to buff you need big units to take advantage.

4-5 dragoons to geet the +2 to hit. Same balistarii etc etc etc.

You need to build on your plan as im trying to tell you so many times. build on it. Spamming troops nice

Stationary troops 5 man rangers with 1-2 snipers back field. (must)
5 man vanguards pushing forth one plasma great . want to have cheap or low in point nice take arc.
simple things make your troops 6 man even better if you got onagers or striders. Simple facts your army need to use to make it happen.

priest max unit works better why cause you need to have bodies to be sure they survive and if you decide to spend the 3 cp to fight again again you need to have bodies.

simple things and facts. Ad mech cause we need cp to make plans work need usually to make bigger units or invest in a pl;an in mass.

to answer again about the plan im talking about kataphrons and the well know everybody talking now make multi threats so your enemy doe not know what to shoot.

ok again make a plan please. an army full of kataphrons or simply put an army with only knights by default is stressing enemy lists. why cause you create an issue from the start.

all troops breachers all T5 and good save and obj secure etc. You make already your enemy think what he needs to shoot when and why. you eliminate mos tlikely v big guns caus he shoots troops etc etc. If i remove 2 units and i add 2 onagers that i surely like i give my enemy a default shooting target so all str 8 weapons will hit onagers to begin with .

So no ytou dont confuse your enemy when you force him to shoot something cause its gona be the default and most likely his choose either way thats why he had str 7-8 top begin with.
If you add icarus onager most likely they will become secondary targets since their str ~6 competes with robots etc.

So its not only you need to understand what you add in your army in matter of units but aslo what they are doing inside.
Outting icarus in front of your gun line force your enemy to waste Shots ina screen that you either way dont really care about since you add icarus for High T wound count not effectiveness only.

Balistarii i love them but they are a liability. Yes you are already making your list better after playing it suzuteo and you are heading towards the plan im talking here. high count of breachers T5 T5 balistarii good bs rerolls etc. but you still have dead weight.
you invest in balistarii spend point to have a D6 damage weapon cost 90 points vs what.
onagers cant get buff? breachers cant get more effective on bs3+ and D6 you ll get like 6 shots vs 2. icarus ? neutron ? sniper rifles Autocannons? helverins. why add balistarii when you can get a knight detachment with 2 helverins ?? its the 4D3 shots flat 3 damage above you with stratagem to reroll hits? the ser amount of shots make the difference. Moving 14 shootign flat 3 damage spamm.

balistarii for me and i use them on 1500 games are superb but but but. Dragoon -2 to gt hit for 68 points is their role.

drop the balistarii use Cawl increase the number of breachers take dominus on them take second battalion for cp and spam arc shots in a big units of breachers. even bs 4+ with rerolls from Cawl if you make like 20+ shots are superb. And you get also screen . its not that your balistarii provide the ultimate weapon.

maybe we ll invest in the new transport maybe but imagine this. IF the new transport has somthing like 6 arc shots that cost 90 points if i say if then its puspose is again to provide Screen and support fire but going forth instead.of being a troop screener.

Thats the difference of Guard and ad mech in troop count. The versatile nature of guard troop with orders. Orders yo uneed to pay either with points (ranger vang weapons) or cp. so i know you like guard troops but if you want to play ad mech. you need to build on a plan.

Answering you again though i dont like to write block of tects but i need to expalin why i say things.
Mars will give you wht yo uneed to buff your plan a certain cover and one more buff and you need it when you invest in Troop list. YOu need the 2 buffs cause bracher becomes str 12 with hydralic with the +1 str. cause if you have pushed your dominus and breachers your Cawl Robots engineers etc will counter attack in your back field with reroll 1s in melee. You cant have hermeticon 9" you can have Cawl 9" etc you eventually run out of cp and there your Ryza wont be able to shoot -1 to hit units. then your Amry will start loosing Cawl buff manipulus Buff etc. No thats why you plan your list.

so you ask me what to get and i asnwer you again.
Full competitive you need to decide your plan.

Stygies cant rely completly on -1 to hit thats why we make List vehicle with -1 to hit to delay our enemy to make them go deeper in Rounds with our vehicles alive so you need higher T. Higher T and -1 to hit yes. Else the airplanes list would dominate everything.
so you loose troop list vs planes ofc thats your antllist but you win with your vehicle lists.

You go the Stygies way nice. 3 onagers balistarii Knight helverins minimum breacher groups for obj no paper units. -1-2 to get hit etc. And i believe i saw a list winnign with 3 neutrons . Dont invest in things you dont need. No need Cawl since your Bs will be 2-3 rerolling 1s etc.

Or go Mars E;lite list.

OR go horde with 2-3 dogmas.

But go for a plan all of you. We can talk like ages. but till you make serious plan you wont have steady results.

And it shard to make those lists. makeing groups of helverings 2-3 striders 4-5++ not easy to make . for solo Ad mech . Make the list with knights helverins all vehicles dominus Stygies etc and you ll be fine . And ofc one graia for support. simple things.

@suzuteo.
Since you already practised knights.
Go for a list something like.

Graia battalion.
Stygies outrider with 3*3 dragoons
3 onagers 2xicarus
Knight crusader icarus
2*2+helverins. As a basic concept and you can Win vs vehicles vs planes vs -1 to hit and definelty can play MOvement army. All can push dragoons can screen .You can add breachers and snipers if you like in GRai take 2 dominus or manipulus and have fun. Will surelly win you steadily more games. Even go 3 crusaders if you like and 3 onagers vs mirror. Easier plan to handle play execute caryy and have fun. ITs more like you.

@Yoda79
I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I don't mind the wall of text either. If I had to write all of my thoughts down, it would look like a big wall of text too.

Totally agree that you need large units of Breachers to get more efficient buffs and to stay within Cawl bubble (if doing Mars). For ITC, you want an odd number to deny one point of Gang Busters too. 3x3 Breachers was hard to manage.

The flying charge is definitely annoying. Referencing back to my battle report, you have to put your Breachers outside and the Skitarii inside in some matchups. This is because the biker base is smaller than the Breacher base, so they can kill Breachers and charge their characters into your castle without having to take overwatch from your Robots.

A unit of 4-6 Dragoons is probably our best counter charge option. You can infiltrate them to force the opponent to fight them in the midfield. 3x3 is good if you only want to use them to screen, but I still prefer 6x if I am taking them as an auxiliary unit.

Can't say I can get 100% onboard with the plan of relying on Kataphrons. I understand its logic completely though. Big unit of Breachers, big unit of Destroyers, and 4x Robots. Use Dominus and Elimination Volley to cancel out minus to hit. I just think it's hard to manage this sort of castle. Lots of dependent parts.

By the way, I played the new Eldar Warlock list in my Game 3, and although I was very unlucky with dice, the Ballistarii were definitely the champs. Absolutely amazing against a variety of enemies. There was never a matchup where they felt dead. Even against T4 infantry, it was a reliable way to force at least 6x AP-3 saves.

Can't do Helverins, unfortunately. ITC faction rules for AdMech faction. The Knight was useful, but I think the list I've got needs Dragoons more. I need to be able to reach out to midfield; too many fast armies that can reach me after only one turn of movement.

If you can't take helverins then you should go for onagers and balistarii . Try 3 neutrons and autocannon balistarii. It's almost same like knights helverins concept . You hide your big gun with -1 to hit stygies max range with at least T7 so pass the str 6 spamming shots that will obliterate your balistarii . As you say a unit like balistarii did with no invu that's where your last cannon rely so the list creates multi threats!

Onager move shoot screen in front h T pushers balistarii take the back field like helverins . Less effective still ad mech and better buffs . Two onagers minimum one unit balistarii or two . If you go autocannon balistarii you can benefit from

2 groups of balistarii ( # of shots ) multi shots keep numbers 2-3*3 so you get effective spread shooting on your enemy guns . Board control . Followed by 2*4 dragoons or close to that you can't win with one group dragoons . This plan depend on str of numbers . 4 dragoons deliver 12 hits 4+ for *3 18 hits 20 damage average ? Something like that to high T. Don't need 6.

ND you make two channels so if enemy has one group of 6 dragoons you can just by pass .

Take two groups rangers with sniper or snioerssss for back field it helps vs hq armies buffers spammers.

Left are one big unit of breachers .
Then for your Gaia it take 3*7-8 vanguard with 1-2 special weapons along side onagers like ad mech photos and go agreesive. Remember you need breachers and balistarii to deny all back field effectively and your stygies and graia will be in max effct .

1) stygies cause of range and high T models with -1 to get hit while midfield you got tansk -1 to hit mutli wound and anti horde vanguard's with graia deny refuse to yield and weapons lethal enemy have to remove!

Simple more effective all units play part and roles etc . Easier to handle multi options . To recap if you wanna go for 6 dragoons as assault unit prefer 2*3-4 they are not on to taken as killers .

Their role can be screener so you need one to stay back maybe . Their role is to take enemy fire and they are supoerb for it so again you might hold then for one or two rounds back. And ofc assault that again better sacrifice 4 and the other 4 tie the target etc? Can't handle assault same as buffing units. + Their bases easy to tie them up with a group of breachers and their done .

4 dragoons with breachers can take out what you need . While neutrons Icarus balistarii even 2*2 groups autocannon can finish up or combine wcdordingyly don't forget 1-2 dominus and your ability to decide canticles not roll them .

PS I know you will say about two shots lascannon vs neutron D3 but as you have said numerous times you shoot most likely or effectively non invu so a

A) neutron even one shot -4 no enemy save
B) str 10 vs 9 makes a difference vs T5 models so elite armies common now days
C) d6 damage vs d3-6 it's + definitely .

And can move shoot mking them better midfield. And great defence !

Since you got no Titans use the 2cp cover first round then choose cover second should be enough for a good starting point for your vehicles to stay alive and go a for easier round after that.

Tip if you decide to go maybe something like 2*3-4 balistarii try two autocannon one lascannon and you LL remember me. This edition benefits hidden special weapons

I definitely enjoy that playstyle, but I am not so sure it's the best bet in the current meta. The big static gunline is very strong right now. I think I can 5-1 a Major if I refine and practice the current list I have.

In any case, I want to wait for the new Skorpius before pulling that trigger. If it flies, I will definitely be taking those with Electro-Priests and/or Plasma Vanguard for a mechanized list. The tank setup might also be nice for scoot and shoot; we'll see.

I take 6x Dragoons if I am doing Auxiliary. But otherwise, yeah, I may consider doing 2x4 with 4x Las-striders for an Outrider or something.

Try it vs the games you played.and it has room for transport priests as options with adjustments easily if you need options . You can change to outrider for less cp . You can remove breachers you can lower strider count and ad other forces like transportsssssss priests etc. All valid and duable same plan . Maybe do one balistarii if you see in your games you cover the back field and use 5 for less points etc. Might be better

So valid options.

A) merge balistarii for a total of 5 not 6 easier buff less points.
B) remove breachers take another sniper group build on the plan save points
C) try 2*3 dragoons maybe not got 12 striders models. Less points
D) add two transports with priests . New transports as many as possible priests inside and let your enemy drown on what to shoot.what to shoot .
E) if you go two transport priest then make dragoons one group 4+ and save points .

Up to you .and new transports maybe we can add new tanks also ...

I'm still iffy on if it's gonna get fly. If it was going to fly, they'd give us a completely unnecessary flying base thats 99% obscured by the model like the repulsive. Since it's just sitting on the table with nothing to make it look like it's floating I've got a feeling it'll be treated more like a regular vehicle.

Fly-lite™ perhaps, like it can fall back and shoot or ignores dangerous terrain, but I'm just not getting my hopes up. Same thing when it comes to the hope it'll be open topped. Call me pessimistic but I'd love to be pleasantly surprised rather than have my hopes dashed because I got too excited.

Honestly I'm just expecting a fairly faster rhino with 4 stubbers and a broad-spectrum data tether. As long as the price is good I'm fine with that.

Yes even a cheap rhino moving 10+ still valid for me as well. I will overcome it's hideous looks if it is cheap and can carry lots of units...

I would be very happy if it was a flying, open-topped vehicle. Then we can just zip our Skitarii around shooting Plasma, Radium, and Stubber rounds at people.

I really don't believe in the open-top rule anymore after seeing the model a few times, it doesn't have a roof just for aesthetics purposes to remind of the Higgins boat but nothing will come out of it rules-wise. I don't believe it'll fly either due to my theories about the propulsion mode, it may skim a bit over the ground but not really take flight.

We can definitely expect some aura ability with the antennas though, would be rely nice if it was a relay or amplifier for rerolls or stratagems. As for the weaponry the Stubbers will help give our list S4 if we go more Vanguards, but I hope there's alternative weapons like Arc rifles or the likes. As long as it's cheap it's great.

Oh and if it have -2 to be charged I'd take it too. Run it in a crater and watch the -4 to be charged.

 Aaranis wrote:
I really don't believe in the open-top rule anymore after seeing the model a few times, it doesn't have a roof just for aesthetics purposes to remind of the Higgins boat but nothing will come out of it rules-wise. I don't believe it'll fly either due to my theories about the propulsion mode, it may skim a bit over the ground but not really take flight.

We can definitely expect some aura ability with the antennas though, would be rely nice if it was a relay or amplifier for rerolls or stratagems. As for the weaponry the Stubbers will help give our list S4 if we go more Vanguards, but I hope there's alternative weapons like Arc rifles or the likes. As long as it's cheap it's great.

Oh and if it have -2 to be charged I'd take it too. Run it in a crater and watch the -4 to be charged.

I think 4x Heavy Stubbers on a 75 point body. So 83 points? I really want fly and open top, but I would take minus charge over that. Hell, I would take 3-4 just to make a wall in front of me. Lol.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/05/29/warhammer-40000-update-april-2019-addendum/

RIP overwatch

LOL. That was over pretty fast. Got to admit though, it was pretty OP.

Oh, and thank goodness, Tyranids can no longer slingshot. Worth losing rerolls on OW.

edit: nvm

Uh, didn't even get to try that. My Mars list just lost a bit of interest, as does the Raiment of the Technomartyr. I'll definitely avoid fixed gunlines.

 Aaranis wrote:
Uh, didn't even get to try that. My Mars list just lost a bit of interest, as does the Raiment of the Technomartyr. I'll definitely avoid fixed gunlines.

yeah, in my opinion falling into the trap of going for a pure gunline army is a huge mistake when playing admech.having a small core that stays relatively put is fine but you need the map control. Things like dragoons, infiltrators, electropriests and even basic skitarii all give us a strong advantage. also if we get the transport this year we'll surely have to make mobility a core aspect of our army

That's why the lists I posted above (that got drowned in other answers) tried to remedy, I admit the fixed gunline is effective but it's not to my playstyle, and it gets shut down too easily. I don't want to build a list and worry about how not to get locked in CC at all costs, I prefer thinking on how to grab objectives and carry the fight to my opponent. I think I'll play my Ryza or Graia list this Friday.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In addition, we don't realise how many points our list frees up when giving up the usual 4x Dakkabots. 3x Onagers is still a must just because it's so cheap, have a huge footprint, a nice durability, good guns and the +1 Ld aura for Skitarii.

 Aaranis wrote:
That's why the lists I posted above (that got drowned in other answers) tried to remedy, I admit the fixed gunline is effective but it's not to my playstyle, and it gets shut down too easily. I don't want to build a list and worry about how not to get locked in CC at all costs, I prefer thinking on how to grab objectives and carry the fight to my opponent. I think I'll play my Ryza or Graia list this Friday.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In addition, we don't realise how many points our list frees up when giving up the usual 4x Dakkabots. 3x Onagers is still a must just because it's so cheap, have a huge footprint, a nice durability, good guns and the +1 Ld aura for Skitarii.

i feel like its been ages that i havnt played kastellans in my lists. i run 2x icarus + 1 neutron as my core gunline, filling it with fulgurites, destroyers, infiltrators and dragoons + a ton of skitarii since i only have 6 kataphrons models so far

You'll be happy when the Skorpius hits the shelves, as we all I guess 3 weeks minimum before a chance of it going on preorder + previews... as there's nothing this week and next will be the Contrast paints.

I m not sure the overwatch changed . I think its a bit written badly but it only states no stratagems in different phases. the last part say for this faq.. so the OW remains as i see it.

Really? I think the Martian gunline is the strongest list we have by far. We pretty much auto-win any shooting matchup, and it's not easy at all to play around 42" Dakkabots in a good placement. My teammates were all 4-2 as Deathwatch, Space Wolves (best Space Wolves in the world last year), and Eldar, and they all thought AdMech gunlines were scary hard to play and terribly underrated. In most games, I gun down 50-75% of my opponent's army in a single turn. I think if I had a more refined list, more games under my belt, and not-terrible luck, I could have done 5-1.

The other AdMech that played the assault list got wrecked at BAO. He even lost to Tau. (This is not to say that I don't like that sort of playstyle. I just think it's not the strategy we can succeed in the meta with anymore.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yoda79 wrote:
I m not sure the overwatch changed . I think its a bit written badly but it only states no stratagems in different phases. the last part say for this faq.. so the OW remains as i see it.

"For the purposes of this FAQ, Overwatch attacks are not considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase."

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/05/29/warhammer-40000-update-april-2019-addendum/

We lose OW rerolls. Space Marines keep theirs.

I'm not at ease comparing with the ITC ruleset as I'm not familiar with it, but aren't lots of points rewarded for kill points ?

Yeah, you can score 1 point for killing one and 1 point for killing more units each round. In addition, you can take up to three secondaries that involve killing, and Dakkabots can kill pretty much everything.

But even if you're playing objectives, having Dakkabots is great for controlling movement. Just set them up with LOS to the wider areas. Control everything on the side of the board that you need to cross these areas to contest. It's how I have always used them. Alpha strike, control the ground, hold objectives and choke them out of points.

 Yoda79 wrote:
I m not sure the overwatch changed . I think its a bit written badly but it only states no stratagems in different phases. the last part say for this faq.. so the OW remains as i see it.

they added one word

Take this situation by way of example:


Everything my teammate had was just cowering in ruins. The safe plan would be to detach a unit to the left (Knight + Breachers) to grab the objective as well as a unit to the right (Enginseer + 2x Vanguard) to grab that objective. Meanwhile, the Robots (with 2x Breachers) sit there in the center out of LOS and wait while I accumulate points. Las-striders can just snipe that unit in the far, far corner; Dreads cannot be targeted because he has closer units hiding out of LOS. Once he is forced to deploy on round two or three, I come out and gun down his army. Indeed, after I counted coup, I fell back, reformed my gunline, then did exactly that; I gunned down 75% of his army in a single turn, and he went back to hiding. I only lost by 2 points, but my friend knew that I did not have to do what I did at the start. However, I figured that if one of us had to be 3-3, I might as well make the game more interesting--and fair.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Yeah, you can score 1 point for killing one and 1 point for killing more units each round. In addition, you can take up to three secondaries that involve killing, and Dakkabots can kill pretty much everything.

But even if you're playing objectives, having Dakkabots is great for controlling movement. Just set them up with LOS to the wider areas. Control everything on the side of the board that you need to cross these areas to contest. It's how I have always used them. Alpha strike, control the ground, hold objectives and choke them out of points.

Its more of a personal playstyle, i find that playing gunline is boring so i force more assaulty lists. triple onager + plasma destroyers + ironstriders is still a ton of firepower and allows me to kill a lot of stuff. Keep in mind that i'm not a tournament player, i consider myself a decent player but i only play in small tournaments at my LGS. tournaments of the scale of LVO isnt something that i'd like to do.

When i say i play an assault list i mean that i force my opponents to deal with immediate threats while leaving my main threats mostly unscathed. I'll usually have stygies fulgurites either charging on turn 1 or close enough to force my opponent to gun them down before i charge in turn 2. while theyre dedicating firepower in my fulgurites, my main dakka is free to destroy their biggest threats. Ryzaphrons get 1-2 rounds of shooting before getting killed and then my onagers finish most of my games since i get rid of my opponent's anti-tank early and i give them pocket enginseers for the repairs.

I will concede that it is less interesting; it's a concession to be more competitive. I feel like I often blow someone out of the water and spend an hour slowly strangling them. That or I get totally blown out and forfeit by round three. Not much gray.

Ah. This year I am committing myself to play in the big tourneys. Last year, I missed many of them because of work.

I am excited for the transport because it means Fulgurites and possible Skitarii special weapons will be competitive again.

 Suzuteo wrote:
I will concede that it is less interesting; it's a concession to be more competitive. I feel like I often blow someone out of the water and spend an hour slowly strangling them. That or I get totally blown out and forfeit by round three. Not much gray.

Ah. This year I am committing myself to play in the big tourneys. Last year, I missed many of them because of work.

I am excited for the transport because it means Fulgurites and possible Skitarii special weapons will be competitive again.

Admech sure makes for some heavy hitting alpha strikes.

if the transport allows for 10 models i cannot wait to put 2 double plasma vanguard squads in them to imitate drukhari raiders

Watch, they're going to be dumb and set the limit at 9 instead of 10-11.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Watch, they're going to be dumb and set the limit at 9 instead of 10-11.

If they set the transport limit to 9 I will swim to England and throw a toaster in every single one of the rules teams' bath tubs. It'd be the perfect gotcha too, since it looks so perfect so far. Simple cheap weapons, probably good speed, some sort of aura buff for infantry, they would do something dumb like that

Yeah I'm waiting for the trap too, it's pessimistic but they failed the codex so far that why not ? Following the Manipulus I half expect the transport to be 150 pts.

I think they have a better sense of how to write rules now though. I bet if they did a mini-codex for AdMech, it could go a long way into diversifying our toolbox.

The more i play admech, the less i feel like we have a broken codex. sure its not optimal and the warlord traits / relics are particularly annoying since most of them arent playable, but the rules for our units arent broken for the most part. we may not have space-marine level of options but we do get mostly good units (corpuscarii and ruststalkers being the outliers but even the, can find some success).

I do agree with Suzuteo, they got better at writing rules, look at the most recent codex release and most of them are cohesive and bring interesting listbuilding choices. If they were to make an Admech 2.0 codex, i feel like we would get quite a lot of good updated rules (dogmas, canticles, Wl traits and relics).

The fact that they are coming out with a necron index soon means that maybe they started doing some updated versions of older codexes (like CSM just got)

All I really hope for form the revisited Admech are Ruststalkers, relics and WLTs redone. The amount of combat relics in the codex that has no combat characters is to high

This leads to the other problem - HQs. Admech could really benefit from something like Custom Characters mechanic from the CA18. Not only it could bridge the HQ gap, but it wouldn't also need new sprues and models in the busy line of GW releases. While Dominus could at last have a viability outside of being rerolling 1s platform.

I think their getting better at writing rules face is more theyre actually listening to the players this time around.
Majority of their changes are "We heard this..." or "People were doing this..." - it used to be we didnt get a damn thing out of GW unless it was so broken it blocked that army from playing (or people playing against that army).
Much as FFG is pissing me off lately im glad that Xwing topped 40k sales at one point. Made GW realize theyre screwing up, since sales they DID pay attention to lol.

We have some pretty bad rules and a limited model selection, but of those usable models, they are amazingly efficient. Still say we are a tier 2 army, capable of consistently doing 4-2 and sometimes 5-1. Real problem though is that we lacks non-LOS shooting and flying melee units.

Anyhow, I was mocking out plans against a friend, and I realize that passively screening is not a good idea at all. No matter how many Breachers I use, an army will find a way to blow a hole in that wall. It's not like trying to go through 6 layers of Catachans. So I have an alternative: replace Breachers with some Infiltrators.


My thinking is that they can be deep struck to delete enemy infantry or characters or be used as a part of your screen as a counter charger. (Ideally, hide them in some ruins so they don't get blasted away.) Make them Mars for Wrath and so Manipulus can give them 3" shooting or 1" move and charge.

Quick question: Pistols can only shoot at another enemy unit in combat if your Infiltrators are also stuck in combat AND that other enemy unit is the closest enemy unit, right? So I can't deep strike and shoot at, say, some Wulfen in close combat with my Dakkabots until I get stuck in with them with my Infiltrators?

 Suzuteo wrote:


Quick question: Pistols can only shoot at another enemy unit in combat if your Infiltrators are also stuck in combat AND that other enemy unit is the closest enemy unit, right? So I can't deep strike and shoot at, say, some Wulfen in close combat with my Dakkabots until I get stuck in with them with my Infiltrators?

Yes. Thats how pistols works(and also exclusive showing to other weapons). If i would have suggestion, make them 10. They are supper squishy, so be prepared to lose them after they DS. You might as well maximize wrath of mars from them. That 15 extra shots can be 1-3 MW and that can add up.
Always place them somewhere where they could charge something. Rarely happens, but when it happens they give immense value. Happened to me last game. They took by both shooting and melee two squads of harlequin bikes. That was twice their value in points, and great strategic value since bikes were hidden behind LoS.

I tried to like Infiltrators but honestly... I can't. Without the WoM they can reliably shoot T3 infantry, but that's it. 9" charges and T3 is killing their melee potential, as they will more often than not fail the roll and die afterwards to any fire and counter-charges. Besides... why would I want to take Infiltrators when there are Corpuscarii with a S5 tesla? Sure, I have to pay a CP to drop them via Lucius, but this bomb can erase practically any T4 horde unit, not to even mention Guardsman.

dadamowsky wrote:
I tried to like Infiltrators but honestly... I can't. Without the WoM they can reliably shoot T3 infantry, but that's it. 9" charges and T3 is killing their melee potential, as they will more often than not fail the roll and die afterwards to any fire and counter-charges. Besides... why would I want to take Infiltrators when there are Corpuscarii with a S5 tesla? Sure, I have to pay a CP to drop them via Lucius, but this bomb can erase practically any T4 horde unit, not to even mention Guardsman.

Because he takes them in mars. Its that simple. Infiltrators->mars, Corpuscari->lucius. Yes Infiltrators die when you look at them. But they provide very important tool. They are cheap enough to drop them and sacrifice in the name of won game. That is if we are talking taser infiltrators. Powersword with stygies, or less so graia, is actually quite good. And at 15pt they are good. Thats vanguard+ranger slapped into one body, and much more mobile, can fight in close combat and have innate ds potential.

No no no they completely went wrong with the codex, there's so much stuff not making any sense it's dramatic.

Let's start with the Dogmas: Metalica affects a very small part of the army, Lucius is almost pointless, if it reduced all AP by -1 it would be worthwhile but now it's just played for the stratagem. Ryza gives a meagre reroll 1s to Wound while stuff like BA get +1 to Wound when charging.

Warlord traits: there's Magos Biologis for our super WS3+ Dominus, Mechadominator for that annoying situation where an enemy vehicle is targeting your Warlord, or Chorister Technis when there's already two stratagems to change the Canticle. With the FW-specific, there's three good ones that benefit your army and 4 that serves to enhance your über-Dominus, you know, the centerpiece of our army that wrecks armies all by himself ?

Relics: SIX RELICS FOR CC, SIX. Then two for ranged weapons, which are not bad but not worth paying a CP for, and the rest is pretty useful except for the Skull of Elder Nikola, who's easily in the top 3 for most useless relic of all game.

Then I could write pages about the units and their weapons, like the Onager who suddenly hits like a fly in CC, Heavy weapons on fast platforms, the mystery of the Radium Jezzail, Ruststalkers with no AP, Brainwashed battle servitors with Ld7, emontionless cyborgs with Ld6, Arc weapons that suddenly don't wound real vehicles anymore (while Drukhari get their sweet Haywire)... Oh, and the HYDRAULIC CLAW with it's mighty S10-S12 and... AP-1 d3D.

I am constantly angry at this codex but it's getting better with updates and Vigilus, the new Skorpius is a huge step forwards too. I'm confident we'll get a working codex update this year.

As for Infiltrators: mine usually stay alive for a turn, but have almost always been useful. Being the only unit with innate DS brings mobility to go harass some unit or capture an objective, and my opponents are always amazed that 5 models blast out 25 shots, it shreds hordes cheaply. Don't expect them to stay alive though, they're like a squad of 10 Skitarii in durability and will die as easily. I wouldn't screen with them, but counter-charge ? Definitely. Power swords are a nice loadout too, but less versatile than the Taser/Blaster.

Huh. I was just making a list with similar pieces.



I'm new to ITC but is it worth having 7 Infiltrators instead of 5 if it gives up Marked for Death'? Also, I'm wondering if making that Graia dettachment mixed so the Enginseers can repair is worth it.

 Aaranis wrote:
No no no they completely went wrong with the codex, there's so much stuff not making any sense it's dramatic.

Let's start with the Dogmas: Metalica affects a very small part of the army, Lucius is almost pointless, if it reduced all AP by -1 it would be worthwhile but now it's just played for the stratagem. Ryza gives a meagre reroll 1s to Wound while stuff like BA get +1 to Wound when charging.

Warlord traits: there's Magos Biologis for our super WS3+ Dominus, Mechadominator for that annoying situation where an enemy vehicle is targeting your Warlord, or Chorister Technis when there's already two stratagems to change the Canticle. With the FW-specific, there's three good ones that benefit your army and 4 that serves to enhance your über-Dominus, you know, the centerpiece of our army that wrecks armies all by himself ?

Relics: SIX RELICS FOR CC, SIX. Then two for ranged weapons, which are not bad but not worth paying a CP for, and the rest is pretty useful except for the Skull of Elder Nikola, who's easily in the top 3 for most useless relic of all game.

Then I could write pages about the units and their weapons, like the Onager who suddenly hits like a fly in CC, Heavy weapons on fast platforms, the mystery of the Radium Jezzail, Ruststalkers with no AP, Brainwashed battle servitors with Ld7, emontionless cyborgs with Ld6, Arc weapons that suddenly don't wound real vehicles anymore (while Drukhari get their sweet Haywire)... Oh, and the HYDRAULIC CLAW with it's mighty S10-S12 and... AP-1 d3D.

I am constantly angry at this codex but it's getting better with updates and Vigilus, the new Skorpius is a huge step forwards too. I'm confident we'll get a working codex update this year.

As for Infiltrators: mine usually stay alive for a turn, but have almost always been useful. Being the only unit with innate DS brings mobility to go harass some unit or capture an objective, and my opponents are always amazed that 5 models blast out 25 shots, it shreds hordes cheaply. Don't expect them to stay alive though, they're like a squad of 10 Skitarii in durability and will die as easily. I wouldn't screen with them, but counter-charge ? Definitely. Power swords are a nice loadout too, but less versatile than the Taser/Blaster.

I cry everytime and 100% agree.

What I want to add is all the bits that is located on our minis that dont get rules anymore.

Servo skulls, Ruststalker grenades.. they literally have the pouches. Dunecrawler Drill.
That and the sad infiltrator debuff and the invulns that never come into play in skitarii, sicarians especially.

 Aaranis wrote:
No no no they completely went wrong with the codex, there's so much stuff not making any sense it's dramatic.

Let's start with the Dogmas: Metalica affects a very small part of the army, Lucius is almost pointless, if it reduced all AP by -1 it would be worthwhile but now it's just played for the stratagem. Ryza gives a meagre reroll 1s to Wound while stuff like BA get +1 to Wound when charging.

Warlord traits: there's Magos Biologis for our super WS3+ Dominus, Mechadominator for that annoying situation where an enemy vehicle is targeting your Warlord, or Chorister Technis when there's already two stratagems to change the Canticle. With the FW-specific, there's three good ones that benefit your army and 4 that serves to enhance your über-Dominus, you know, the centerpiece of our army that wrecks armies all by himself ?

Relics: SIX RELICS FOR CC, SIX. Then two for ranged weapons, which are not bad but not worth paying a CP for, and the rest is pretty useful except for the Skull of Elder Nikola, who's easily in the top 3 for most useless relic of all game.

Then I could write pages about the units and their weapons, like the Onager who suddenly hits like a fly in CC, Heavy weapons on fast platforms, the mystery of the Radium Jezzail, Ruststalkers with no AP, Brainwashed battle servitors with Ld7, emontionless cyborgs with Ld6, Arc weapons that suddenly don't wound real vehicles anymore (while Drukhari get their sweet Haywire)... Oh, and the HYDRAULIC CLAW with it's mighty S10-S12 and... AP-1 d3D.

I am constantly angry at this codex but it's getting better with updates and Vigilus, the new Skorpius is a huge step forwards too. I'm confident we'll get a working codex update this year.

As for Infiltrators: mine usually stay alive for a turn, but have almost always been useful. Being the only unit with innate DS brings mobility to go harass some unit or capture an objective, and my opponents are always amazed that 5 models blast out 25 shots, it shreds hordes cheaply. Don't expect them to stay alive though, they're like a squad of 10 Skitarii in durability and will die as easily. I wouldn't screen with them, but counter-charge ? Definitely. Power swords are a nice loadout too, but less versatile than the Taser/Blaster.

Cant really disagree. All of those are symptoms of early codex, when they had 3 ideas across and copy pasted them into the game in many places. Anything that came out after rapid fire codexes is actually good, if not for some mechanical reasons(tyrannies are good, but are invalidated by meta, and BA and DA are also ass good as marines can be). That said, our core is good. Actually good, not ok nor Outstanding, but good. Stratagems are good. Quality of units fluctuates but overall good. Relics are joke as are warlord traits and dogmas.

But moaning won't do us anything good. In fact I'm gonna write to rules team right now. You all should do that too. Ill ask them to consider reworking traits and realics, because dogmas you can argue may be good, but traits and relics are gak.

Dogmas also need looking at in regards to their specific stratagems......ryza: plasma specialist, dogma: reroll 1s to wound in combat?. Stygies: infiltrate, dogma: -1 to hit? Whatever list you build they are always at odds with each other. The strategem you want to use does not benefit the dogma, then for the dogma you want, the stratagem is useless. So we end up mixing fws or simply not optimising detachments, always 'giving up' something to sqeeze in what we need. As alot are realising going back to pure Mars is easier as its just a non issue for that fw. Just an opinion.

So i had a fun game against my ork playing friend and finally managed to eke out a close victory. 24-22 playing with ITC mission rules. Dunecrawlers and Kastelan robots were MVP.

His dreadwaagh big mek was a terror though and killed 1-2 kastellans or dunecrawlers every single turn even while hitting on 6's,

Im still not sure what i feel with the arquebuses, while decent and forcing opponent to play carefully to not expose his charaters (except his big mek which was cleverly defended by grot shields), i wonder if thoose points would be better spent on more screening units instead (by getting an additional one and turning the sniper squads into screening ones).

Anyhow the question is how many snipers are needed at 1250 pts, Would a single sniper squad with 2 arquebuses be enough or do you need 4 arquebuses to put out enough volume of fire to be a viable threat and thus worth thier points?

The problem began when they made guard versatile as we where canticles / order wise in 7th.

From that point on introducing the stratagem system they gave us our versatile fluff through stratagems .

That said the tools exist but the system updated for rest oof armies not us. Yes the decrease on points almost created broken good units point wise for us but still the army has no coherency.
I have spammed and begged for changes from the start of the edition .
With the increased cp count and combination of points decrease the army climbed butt still has no coherency. It does not have the flavor of ad mech .

The main issue here as I tried to stress out was that our units don't have any abilities and we have to pay every single one.
We don't have gear to pick up options or the hq to make combos .
Thus the flavors forge world's should be providing does not exist.

What I suggest that will not break the game but could easily fix it.

Invest in forrge world dogmas not stratagems . Example
You pick stygies. If all dtacment stygies then you can replace one canticles with stygies specific . Your hq will get an second aurrs fx a bit relics and warlord traits or give cp to pick up more. Thus limiitkng the performance if you mix but all players could decide their forge world playystyl e. With some combos and shenanigans .

How the army is now for me there is only some specific units that erform cause of point/ efficiency but does not have feel like an army .

I will have to leave out our Cawl Robot destroyers gun Line that is trully a force and has been our first major lists . It is unique still strong and balanced . It's strategic and has big eskness and at the same point lethal . There is none that faced the robots and didn't fear them. We gotta give them that.

So for me ATM in mech.

Cawl star (+ infiltrators yes)
Vehicle spam stygies
Troop spam mixed graia lucius

Are working in some extend + some smaller options like agripnna and ryza . The dev team can build on this and with me ttweaks to work it out .

One transport one los weapon simple units buff lik rustalkers maybe some extra flavor / forge world relics and warlord traits effective would be the go .
Simple things .

the_Grak wrote:
Huh. I was just making a list with similar pieces.

Spoiler:

Stygies VIII Battalion Detachment - 1289
Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)

HQ - 180
1x Tech_Priest Dominus - Warlord
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic

Troop - 389
6x Kataphron Breacher - 6x Heavy Arc Rifle, 6x Arc Claw
5x Skitarii Ranger - 3x Galvanic Rifle, 2x Transuranic Arquebus, Omnispex
5x Skitarii Ranger - 3x Galvanic Rifle, 2x Transuranic Arquebus, Omnispex
5x Skitarii Ranger - 3x Galvanic Rifle, 2x Transuranic Arquebus

Elite - 110
5x Sicarian Infiltrator - 5x Flechette Blaster, 5x Taser Goad
4x Servitors - 4x Servo-arms

Heavy Support - 343
Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Stubber, Broad spectrum Data-tether
Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Stubber, Broad spectrum Data-tether
Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, 2x Cognis Stubber, Broad spectrum Data-tether

Fast Attack - 272
4x Sydonian Dragoon - 6x Taser Lance

Graia Battalion Detachment - 213

HQ - 60
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 153
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 4x Radium Carbine, Plasma Caliver
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 4x Radium Carbine, Plasma Caliver
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 4x Radium Carbine, Plasma Caliver

Krast Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 498
Exhalted Court, Heirlooms of the Household(-2 CP)

Lord of War- 498
Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid fire Battle Cannon, 2x Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Flamer, Icarus Auto-cannon, Headsman's Mark, First Knight

Total: 2000 points
10 CP

I'm new to ITC but is it worth having 7 Infiltrators instead of 5 if it gives up Marked for Death'? Also, I'm wondering if making that Graia dettachment mixed so the Enginseers can repair is worth it.

Yeah. 8 is the ideal number, but 7 comes close. Don't worry about M4D. It's a tough secondary compared to Gang Busters or Kingslayer. Worst comes to worst, you can deny him the M4D by dropping Infiltrators out of the way. (My general advice is not to worry too much about giving up points. Focus on scoring them, denying them, and winning the game in general.)

In my opinion, Stygies is good, but not very competitive for a shooting army. Ultimately, it does not matter how durable you are if you cannot kill things. The ability to reroll everything is extremely useful against other minus to hit matchups.

dadamowsky wrote:
I tried to like Infiltrators but honestly... I can't. Without the WoM they can reliably shoot T3 infantry, but that's it. 9" charges and T3 is killing their melee potential, as they will more often than not fail the roll and die afterwards to any fire and counter-charges. Besides... why would I want to take Infiltrators when there are Corpuscarii with a S5 tesla? Sure, I have to pay a CP to drop them via Lucius, but this bomb can erase practically any T4 horde unit, not to even mention Guardsman.

Well, Flechette Blasters are strictly better than Stubcarbines for T2-5. You ideally want to shoot T3 infantry, but they can kill T4 as well. With deep strike <12", rerolls, Wrath, and the +2 to hit, they can deal a lot of damage to Eldar bikes. Yes, they die immediately after, but that's sort of the point. You expend these models to buy a turn for your gunline or to assassinate a character.

I like the forgeworld changing canticles idea and agree with everything else. If only GW worked closer with us Admech players.. I would gladly work with them.
I have accumulated a lot of data regarding 8th edition admech. Which started because I felt our fluff was gone. Anyone who likes a long Admech read can feel free to join and comment from anything tactical to fluff and creative ideas to make us more unique and stand out as the greedy cult that we are.

Not to be downer 0XFallen, but nobody gives a crap about such "propositions". Proplayers that are actual beta testers were giving them propositions and solutions for various reasons and topics and they didn't listen. The only sing that they listen seams to be short feedback in i form"hey i think that X and Y are wrong because Z, and that makes army clunky" without propositions. Especially if voiced in quality.

I think a lot of us just need to constantly ask for a consolidated index or codex with all of the new units in them. They will probably also take the opportunity to revise points and maybe even tweak some of the rules. Next opportunity to do so is when this Skorpius comes out. We can ask for new stratagems or even detachments that makes use of transports and such.

Don't expect a major rework until 9E, which is perhaps two years down the road?

 Suzuteo wrote:
I think a lot of us just need to constantly ask for a consolidated index or codex with all of the new units in them. They will probably also take the opportunity to revise points and maybe even tweak some of the rules. Next opportunity to do so is when this Skorpius comes out. We can ask for new stratagems or even detachments that makes use of transports and such.

Don't expect a major rework until 9E, which is perhaps two years down the road?

Ad assuming that admech codex 2.0 does have chance to come out, we need to give feedback right now to accommodate for production process(printing and stuff). Because in to months it may be too late, if it isn't late already.

 Spera wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
I think a lot of us just need to constantly ask for a consolidated index or codex with all of the new units in them. They will probably also take the opportunity to revise points and maybe even tweak some of the rules. Next opportunity to do so is when this Skorpius comes out. We can ask for new stratagems or even detachments that makes use of transports and such.

Don't expect a major rework until 9E, which is perhaps two years down the road?

Ad assuming that admech codex 2.0 does have chance to come out, we need to give feedback right now to accommodate for production process(printing and stuff). Because in to months it may be too late, if it isn't late already.

Part of me is hopping that releasing the transport will be the time they release a revised/updated codex similar to the marine updates they did recently.

Are servitors even worth finding an alternate model solution, since the official model is hyper expensive?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/05/31/revealed-at-the-uk-games-expo-2019gw-homepage-post-1/

here you go new options or not...

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Are servitors even worth finding an alternate model solution, since the official model is hyper expensive?

they are easy to kitbash from kataphron parts + guardsmen

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Are servitors even worth finding an alternate model solution, since the official model is hyper expensive?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Mechanicum-Magos-Macrotek-Enginseer-Servo-automata

I see Enginseer and four Servitors here. (Don't buy direct from FW; the markup is ridiculous.)

oh yeah the markup is ridiculous. Im glad i bought my gargsquig before that happened because im not touching FW until they fix that bs.

Had my game against Eldar today, playing a variation of my Graia list with 2x10 Hoplites and 4x Fistelans. Was a very fun game, won 12-11, mission 6 of Maelstrom in CA2018 with the cards you have to discard before game on a d6.

Graia helped me grab a point by abjuring a Hemlock's Smite when I had the objective card, and one of my Fistelans stayed alive thanks to the dogma and forced my opponent to deal with it with more weaponry. Also funny I almost killed a Warlock on bike because he shot at them, he lost two of his three wounds thanks to the Grid.

I liked the Hoplites but I'll have to try them more as I had to do a lot of footslog because my opponent had to play defensively. They're not bad against Hemlocks because of T6 by the way, one of the few viable targets for Arc weaponry. I totally misdeployed them though because I forgot the Manipulus couldn't bolster the Hoplites because of the damn keywords. He was carrying the Omniscient Mask though, but when they arrived in CC they just did sweeping duty as my opponent didn't have any serious threats any more. 10 Hoplites absolutely murder light infantry in CC though, was surprised.

Also, triple Neutron Laser feels consistent, altough against -1 to Hit armies you feel the lack of Cawl.

1)So Cawl can be added to a mixed detachment . Could use some solid prouf reading about it.

2)As i said i dont see why overwatch does not get the rerolls. Debate i see not valid info. It states For the purpose of this Faq not ruled out.

Anyone with some valid ifnormations?

 Yoda79 wrote:
1)So Cawl can be added to a mixed detachment . Could use some solid prouf reading about it.

2)As i said i dont see why overwatch does not get the rerolls. Debate i see not valid info. It states For the purpose of this Faq not ruled out.

Anyone with some valid ifnormations?

to put it bluntly yoda, the moment they released this article, they also dropped some erratas.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en.pdf

page 9.
They basically reverted last FAQ. Overwatch is shooting attack, but not as if in shooting phase. That reverted our overwatch, jumping tau commander and so on. If we use infoslave skull, we get our rerolls, but not anymore in overwatch.

to me it sounds like yet another GW rules writing inconsistency that is just accepted as different, even though it makes little sense to actually be different.
Is there another "as if phase" sort of effect that doesnt use the "as if" clause? i cant think of one.

So I have a battle against Guard & Sisters tomorrow. (mainly Guard but a patrol detachment with Celestine thrown in).
opponents forces include: Vendetta, Celestine, Basalisk, Deathstrike, Leman Russ, and a bunch of Guardsmen.

does anyone have any advice?

My List:

@The Forgemaster
Dakkabots should be Mars, Skitarii should be Graia (ideally, assuming you have to face psykers), Dragoons and Fulgurites should be Stygies with dogma. Fulgurites also want a Drill or Manipulus to get them downfield.

In my experience, the Servitor resurrect is very inconsistent for Destroyers. They are good if you have one big unit of Breachers though (and a Dominus with them, so non-Mars). Still, I would put as many points toward your threats as possible. AdMech is not an army that benefits from subtlety or utility. We're good at fielding big units that all gravely threaten your opponent. (It's like: You must kill this, this, this, and this on turn one or you will feel a lot of pain.)

Hm... are Ambulls any good? I have never used them before.

 Suzuteo wrote:
@The Forgemaster
Dakkabots should be Mars, Skitarii should be Graia (ideally, assuming you have to face psykers), Dragoons and Fulgurites should be Stygies with dogma. Fulgurites also want a Drill or Manipulus to get them downfield.

In my experience, the Servitor resurrect is very inconsistent for Destroyers. They are good if you have one big unit of Breachers though (and a Dominus with them, so non-Mars). Still, I would put as many points toward your threats as possible. AdMech is not an army that benefits from subtlety or utility. We're good at fielding big units that all gravely threaten your opponent. (It's like: You must kill this, this, this, and this on turn one or you will feel a lot of pain.)

Hm... are Ambulls any good? I have never used them before.

Ah thanks for the advice.

personally not a fan of Mars - I try to use other forge worlds where possible.
I am working on getting more breachers...
I figured that Ryza would be better for the dragoons and Priests as I was planning on having them on counter-attack (so figured ryza reroll 1's to wound better than stygies) options rather than going too far forward - celestine and Bullgryns... (note we also tend to play with a bunch of LoS blocking terrain so it is fairly easy to hide the dragoons & infantry)

regareding the servitors - between the dominus and the manipulus you can get back a fair number of the Kataphrons - say you lost a couple of them and another was down to 1 wound. heal it back to full with the master of machines from dominus, next use biosplice to bring back a new kataphron on 1 wound and then heal with the manipulus. and repeat.

I am giving the Ambull a try (I have used it in a couple of games already) - it is a cheap unit that can nativly deep strike (albeit one that must start on the board and re-deploy) but T6 & 7 Wounds with a 3+ sv and regenerating D3 wounds per turn is fairly reasonable for its cost - it lasted longer than a unit of 5 Infiltrators... somthing that can pop up and threaten artilery or a backfield objective/linebreaker - worth the cost as it will either go through a unit of devasators etc. or tie up a tank or two, or opponent will fire on it removing fire coming the rest of the way towards my army. it also helps that it is a nice looking model (and I am planning on modelling it in chains etc. to represent it being captured and let loose on the enemny...)

of the threats listed in my original post which should I aim to kill first (if possible?)

Mars is strong in the meta because minus to hit is everywhere again now that Reapers and Lootas got nerfed. In any case, if you are Stygies-focused, use Icarus Dunecrawlers and Las-striders instead of Dakkabots. Furthermore, rerolling all BS4+ is pretty much the same thing as +1 to hit.

Dragoons are high WS, volume, and strength, so rerolls aren't too necessary on them. Fulgurites may benefit more, but their great risk is getting blown off the board before even getting in charge range.

You cannot heal the same unit twice in a row with Master of Machines.

I like the Ambull's deep strike ability. My concern is how useful he is without stratagems.

Depends. If he is going second, kill his infantry or you will lose on objectives. Otherwise his firebase is key. The Lemons and Basilisk are your primary threats.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Mars is strong in the meta because minus to hit is everywhere again now that Reapers and Lootas got nerfed. In any case, if you are Stygies-focused, use Icarus Dunecrawlers and Las-striders instead of Dakkabots. Furthermore, rerolling all BS4+ is pretty much the same thing as +1 to hit.

Dragoons are high WS, volume, and strength, so rerolls aren't too necessary on them. Fulgurites may benefit more, but their great risk is getting blown off the board before even getting in charge range.

You cannot heal the same unit twice in a row with Master of Machines.

I like the Ambull's deep strike ability. My concern is how useful he is without stratagems.

Depends. If he is going second, kill his infantry or you will lose on objectives. Otherwise his firebase is key. The Lemons and Basilisk are your primary threats.

I just prefer not to use Mars as I like to be a little different (I also do not tend to play in top level competative scenes so am not too fussed that somthing is not top 100% best)...
I have just got two more dragoons - probably will build as ironstriders instead and magnetise the guns but they will not be ready in time for my game tomorrow...)
I always take at least 1 Neutron Onager and after that if I have points spare I go for the Icarus as I like having Tank Killing options without the need for CP (i.e. plasmaphrons) as I tent to run out quickly...
the reroll to wound on dragoons is not necessary but if I dont have it - just watch how many ones I roll
as per the wording on master of machines (and it is not FAQ'd as far as I can see) "At the end of your movement phase you can repair a single friendly AdMech model....A MODEL may not be the target of the MoM ability more than once per turn" i.e. multiple kataphrons is OK, but not the same Onager unless Tech Adept strat is used. please correct me if I am wrong.
as I mentioned the Ambull is ok for a diversion (could also use on same turn as 10x Mars Infiltrators if you want to divert fire away from them for a turn) it is just a nice option to have.

WHat about the Deathstrike & Vendetta? worth targeting over the Russ & Basilisk? I am presuming I will not be able to kill Celestine by shooting due to character targeting rules which is why I wanted a strong counter attack option.

Ah. Then Stygies is your best bet. They are the style I feel many of us WANT to play, but which we who play at the tourney tables cannot because superior firepower is more important than durability. I hope that will change with the new transport though. Ideally, if they give us flying, open top, and/or some way for our spare tech-priests to be useful, such as being able to voxcast auras...

Oh wow. You're right. It says model. How weird. I never noticed.

Deathstrike can be really random, but I guess you can kill it if you can do so quickly.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Ah. Then Stygies is your best bet. They are the style I feel many of us WANT to play, but which we who play at the tourney tables cannot because superior firepower is more important than durability. I hope that will change with the new transport though. Ideally, if they give us flying, open top, and/or some way for our spare tech-priests to be useful, such as being able to voxcast auras...

Oh wow. You're right. It says model. How weird. I never noticed.

Deathstrike can be really random, but I guess you can kill it if you can do so quickly.

I know - I will be purchasing at least 2 Skorpius when they come out - one transport and one tank maybe more if the rules are good.

MoM doesn't make much difference normally but with the servitor maniple and biosplicing you can basically get back 2 kataphrons per turn. normally you are unable to bring dead models back so are unable to heal more than once anyways.

Many thanks for your advice.

So I've tried my previously posted Mars + Dragoons + Execution Force list yesterday. And there's a potential to play with. The end results was 3:35 26:13 and 36:13. The first match was both my bad decisions, a hard counter list, and very good seasoned player piloting it. He basically took a bunch of phobis Infiltrators and scouts, placed them on the ryins floors, crippled my Dragoons movement with a Thunderfire and phobos psyker. While his Custodes and Death Company has been slowing me down. My mistake was to babysit Cawlstar with Dragoons - I should play aggresively, catch his Captains turn 2, and deal with the psyker earlier. Unfortunately I failed screening my back so Death Company had free ticket to my y Kastelans and charcters.

The other matches however went heavily in my favor. Second was a Morka and 2 Gorkas Ork, with 3 planes. Third was a Ravager spam with Talos, and Scourges (DSing haywires). These matches were a triumph of the assassins - they scored quite a few game points on Eternals and Maelstorm, gave a lot of CPs (roughly an equivalent of a third battalion each match), Vindicares Turbopenetrator is actually a decent Jet harassment tool. Not to be relied on vs Eldar planes spam, but a casual -hit vehicle will swallow these d3 mortals. Strafing Fire proved to be very handy as well - with a Manipulus on Static Psalm code I have never had Kastelans outranged.

What I'd play around are different assassins setups - two Vindicare, Callisdus Eversor for instance. Or two Eversors, Calidus, Culexus. The options are there

I'm curious about people's experience with the Arabesques-sniper-armed Rangers. I'm currently looking to run AdMech as support for a Knight lance. It seems like having heavy snipers would help a little vs some of the common threats; Psykers and Melee Captains/Lords for example. I'm concerned that they would be near doubling the points cost of small squads and just get shot off of the table before they can do anything.

bmsattler wrote:
I'm curious about people's experience with the Arabesques-sniper-armed Rangers. I'm currently looking to run AdMech as support for a Knight lance. It seems like having heavy snipers would help a little vs some of the common threats; Psykers and Melee Captains/Lords for example. I'm concerned that they would be near doubling the points cost of small squads and just get shot off of the table before they can do anything.

Run them as Stygies and have 6-7 models in the squad instead of 5, take 2 Arquebus and omnispex. three of those (6 models), and 2x enginseers (for a battalion) will run you 276 points for 6x Arquebus shots per turn.

Take the Knight lance as a second detachment.

for a third battalion take Loyal 32 (or fill out with some more vanguard/breachers etc. 2x enginseers & 3x3 breachers for 330) to run/roll forward to take objectives and act as a distraction for the rangers.

bmsattler wrote:
I'm curious about people's experience with the Arabesques-sniper-armed Rangers. I'm currently looking to run AdMech as support for a Knight lance. It seems like having heavy snipers would help a little vs some of the common threats; Psykers and Melee Captains/Lords for example. I'm concerned that they would be near doubling the points cost of small squads and just get shot off of the table before they can do anything.

Depends on your terrain really - if you can secure LoS, they are quite decent. If your LoS cuts at low ranges, like my meta often does, they will suck. If they can see, Ethereal or Cadre are dying fast. Eldar characters should drop as well (or stay hidden being less effective). Idk how do they fare vs Mephiston and friends, but I'd rather take Callidus/Eversor to be able to drop them dead no matter where will they appear - Assassins not only can clear characters with an innate DS, but gain CPs from it.

dadamowsky wrote:

bmsattler wrote:
I'm curious about people's experience with the Arabesques-sniper-armed Rangers. I'm currently looking to run AdMech as support for a Knight lance. It seems like having heavy snipers would help a little vs some of the common threats; Psykers and Melee Captains/Lords for example. I'm concerned that they would be near doubling the points cost of small squads and just get shot off of the table before they can do anything.

Depends on your terrain really - if you can secure LoS, they are quite decent. If your LoS cuts at low ranges, like my meta often does, they will suck. If they can see, Ethereal or Cadre are dying fast. Eldar characters should drop as well (or stay hidden being less effective). Idk how do they fare vs Mephiston and friends, but I'd rather take Callidus/Eversor to be able to drop them dead no matter where will they appear - Assassins not only can clear characters with an innate DS, but gain CPs from it.

take a bunch of Arquebus and a Vindicare the Arquebus drop the characters to 1-2 Wounds and the Vindicare finishes them off and then gains some CP.

Its a bit early to speculate but....

Do we reckon that electro priests in the new transports could be viable in Mars detachments or do we anticipate that Stygies will be required for the 9" pregame

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Its a bit early to speculate but....

Do we reckon that electro priests in the new transports could be viable in Mars detachments or do we anticipate that Stygies will be required for the 9" pregame

I recon it will help all lists - Priests in Transports will work well again (unless the transports are expensive), but Stygies will get them up the board faster so they will have more use in those detachments.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Its a bit early to speculate but....

Do we reckon that electro priests in the new transports could be viable in Mars detachments or do we anticipate that Stygies will be required for the 9" pregame

The best forge-worlds for Fulgurites in my opinion are (in no particular order):

- Mars: double canticles mean more chances for rerolls 1s and +1S, though I don't know if the difference between S5 and S6 is remarkable;
- Stygies: if we can infiltrate the Skorpius the 9" move can gain us a turn of charges depending on the deployment and match-up. Though I'd be wary because if we're closer, so is the enemy and he could shoot it easier or charge first;
- Ryza: reroll 1s to Wound ups the chances to deal MWs significantly, combine with reroll 1s (or a Prime Hermeticon) and they'll become very dangerous, allowing them to destroy that unit easier to get the 3++ sooner

Graia's dogma don't work on them anymore for some reason, Metalica, Agripinaa and Lucius don't help obviously, so there's our best options.

It's worth noting that Ryza should gain more popularity due to 10 man squads of Vanguards with 3 Calivers becoming a viable option again, as Ryzaphron-lite alternatives.

 Aaranis wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Its a bit early to speculate but....

Do we reckon that electro priests in the new transports could be viable in Mars detachments or do we anticipate that Stygies will be required for the 9" pregame

The best forge-worlds for Fulgurites in my opinion are (in no particular order):

- Mars: double canticles mean more chances for rerolls 1s and +1S, though I don't know if the difference between S5 and S6 is remarkable;

It is and it isn't, easier time wounding t3 screen may come handy and most TEQ(blight lords) have t5(or grotesques with homunculi that are t6) and those would be premium targets for fulgurites charge. And thats fulgurites, don't forget corpuscari and WoM combo that may be finally doable.

- Stygies: if we can infiltrate the Skorpius the 9" move can gain us a turn of charges depending on the deployment and match-up. Though I'd be wary because if we're closer, so is the enemy and he could shoot it easier or charge first;

Yup but that is only positioning, That said, -1 to hit for most transports increase its survivability significantly, and thus protect priest much longer.

- Ryza: reroll 1s to Wound ups the chances to deal MWs significantly, combine with reroll 1s (or a Prime Hermeticon) and they'll become very dangerous, allowing them to destroy that unit easier to get the 3++ sooner

Graia's dogma don't work on them anymore for some reason, Metalica, Agripinaa and Lucius don't help obviously, so there's our best options.

Graia still works, its just exclusive with fnp, bummer, but you can chose which one you use depending on weapon targeting. 1 dmg weapon go for fop, 2+ dmg go for refusal to yeld.Plus you can rol RtY for models that died with destroyed transport.

It's worth noting that Ryza should gain more popularity due to 10 man squads of Vanguards with 3 Calivers becoming a viable option again, as Ryzaphron-lite alternatives.

Dont get me started on what great benefit it will be for plasma vanguard if it is open topped. Oh boy so sweet.



Only Metalica doesn't benefiting from this, even lucius being able to drop them on the field next to good targets will be sweet.

So I now have 6x Breachers (amongst other troops) do I run them as 2x3 or 1x6? which do people fine more useful? note that I am planning on running them in servitor maniple etc. and probably Ryza due to running some ryzaphrons as well.

Also Arc Claw or Hydraulic Claw?

if agripinaa always 6

if not agripinaa 2x3 uses up more troop slots

as to the CC weapo n you dont want the -1 to hit

From my experience, fewer large units of Breachers. Here is my pro/con:
+Easier to maintain distance for auras; important for gunlines
+Easier to make good use of repairs
+Piles in better
+Gets +1 to hit stratagem if bringing Servitor Maniple
+Gives up less points for M4D
-More vulnerable to D3 weapons like Thunder Hammers
-Takes up less troop slots
-Harder to get cover; bring Mars for reliable Shroudpsalm

In terms of ideal size, Mars wants 4-9x, Stygies 4-6x, Agripinaa always 6x.

 Suzuteo wrote:
From my experience, fewer large units of Breachers. Here is my pro/con:
+Easier to maintain distance for auras; important for gunlines
+Easier to make good use of repairs; Agripinaa wants 6x
+Piles in better
+Gets +1 to hit stratagem if bringing Servitor Maniple
+Gives up less points for M4D
-More vulnerable to D3 weapons like Thunder Hammers
-Takes up less troop slots
-Harder to get cover; bring Mars for reliable Shroudpsalm

Many thanks for your notes and ideas. I am planning on running 6 in a servitor maniple as well as 6 plasmaphrons (not yet decided on forgeworld but probably stygies). I was planning on giving the destroyers the 5++, should I do the same for the breachers, I am thinking yes? The +1 to hit will be on the destroyers probably, although I am also planning on Kastellans so I could use elimination volley and servitor maniple +1 to hit if I have enough CP.

Breachers do not need the 5++. This is because they have a natural 2+ with Shroudpsalm; bringing Cawl adds to the consistency. There are no -4 weapons worth shooting at Breachers.

Destroyers may benefit from 5++ situationally. S6 AP-2 weapons are very common. There are also a few AP-3 weapons worth pointing at Destroyers, as they usually are a must-kill threat to the enemies bearing those AP-3 weapons.

If you see Thunder Hammers, give the Breachers 5++.

Remember, you get to choose whether or not to use the stratagem before the battle begins at the same time you pick your WLTs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I were to be brutally honesty though: Don't invest in your Breachers. Over 6 games at BAO, I can count on one hand the number of times they contributed to my damage output. They shoot like crap, even with Cawl rerolls, against anything that is not a vehicle. They fight even worse, since you don't get buffs. We bring them because they are big, CHEAP T5 bricks that shrug off bolters and heavy stubbers like rain drops; everyone relies on S4 shooting because GEQs are still the best screen in most armies. Take one or two big units and put them in front of your Skitarii (or behind in some cases) to buy two turns of shooting.

On that point, every CP you have should be contributing to making your firebase output more wounds. Infiltrate, Doctrina, Wrath of Mars, maybe a damage reroll. The only defensive stratagem that I use is Graia's Abhor. Because when it boils down to it, when you run a gunline, you win if you outshoot your opponent; if you kill enough of his pieces in rounds 1-2 that he cannot enact his game plan.

While not mandatory in the same way the 5++ is usefull on breachers vs certain melee lists their are plent of AP3 CC weapons.

Agripinaa breachers have been consistently solid for me

Im experimenting with stygies breachers and their good so far.

Yeah. I'm thinking one big unit of Stygies Breachers without any buffs. Minus to hit makes them a much more durable screen; the favored method seems to be to use spells and shooting to blow holes and fly over the survivors. They can be infiltrated 9" for more depth.

Wondering if mixing my Mars battalion with Graia infantry is worth it though. Abhor is great, but I lose out on try chances for Shroudpsalm, which matters for the firebase units later on in the game.

I know everyone is at the kataphron trip atm. I personally dont use them nor electropriests for aesthetic reasons and want to look at non Cawlstar lists.
Main plan is to have tough and long range units, which are then supported by a massive deepstrike having first turn shroudpsalm and 2nd turn rerolling 1s.
Main concern is that I have too much in deepstrike that I might not be able to utilize well.

 0XFallen wrote:
I know everyone is at the kataphron trip atm. I personally dont use them nor electropriests for aesthetic reasons and want to look at non Cawlstar lists.
Main plan is to have tough and long range units, which are then supported by a massive deepstrike having first turn shroudpsalm and 2nd turn rerolling 1s.
Main concern is that I have too much in deepstrike that I might not be able to utilize well.

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [62 PL, 931pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Stygies VIII

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Dominus [7 PL, 90pts]: Macrostubber, Relic: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Volkite Blaster

Tech-Priest Manipulus [5 PL, 90pts]: Transonic cannon, Warlord

+ Troops +

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 65pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 2x Skitarii Ranger
. 2x Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): 2x Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 65pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 2x Skitarii Ranger
. 2x Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): 2x Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 65pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 2x Skitarii Ranger
. 2x Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): 2x Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 35pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 4x Skitarii Ranger

+ Elites +

Servitors [4 PL, 20pts]
. 4x Servitor (Servo arm)

+ Fast Attack +

Ironstrider Ballistarii [4 PL, 60pts]
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Autocannon

+ Heavy Support +

Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 210pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Incendine Combustor, Kastelan Fists
. Kastelan Robot: Incendine Combustor, Kastelan Fists

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 119pts]: Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 112pts]: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Icarus Array

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [39 PL, 600pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Graia

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Lucius

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Mars

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 30pts]

Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 30pts]

+ Troops +

Skitarii Vanguards [7 PL, 120pts]
. 6x Skitarii Vanguard
. 3x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): 3x Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Arc Pistol, Power sword

Skitarii Vanguards [7 PL, 120pts]
. 6x Skitarii Vanguard
. 3x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): 3x Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Arc Pistol, Taser Goad

Skitarii Vanguards [7 PL, 120pts]
. 6x Skitarii Vanguard
. 3x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): 3x Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Arc Pistol, Taser Goad

+ Elites +

Sicarian Infiltrators [12 PL, 180pts]
. Infiltrator Princeps
. . Flechette Blaster and Taser Goad: Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad
. 9x Sicarian Infiltrator (Flechette/Taser): 9x Flechette Blaster, 9x Taser Goad

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [25 PL, -1CP, 468pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

[Reference] Warlord Traits (All)

Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait

Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom

Household Choice: House <Custom>, Questor Mechanicus

+ Lord of War +

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 1CP, 468pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord Trait: Cunning Commander
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer

++ Total: [126 PL, -1CP, 1,999pts] ++

If the second detachment is mixed one, then drop arc pistols and weapons from vanguards and give them data theters. for one it gives you target for doctrina start, and two, it reduces chance for losing plasma to morale. Other than that, this list is supper dependent on terrain. And katpahrons are new hotness because its additional good unit, but nothing above that.
About list... nothing outstanding, but also nothing to weak. Altough i would rather take some dragoons instead of single balistarii.

 Spera wrote:

 0XFallen wrote:
I know everyone is at the kataphron trip atm. I personally dont use them nor electropriests for aesthetic reasons and want to look at non Cawlstar lists.
Main plan is to have tough and long range units, which are then supported by a massive deepstrike having first turn shroudpsalm and 2nd turn rerolling 1s.
Main concern is that I have too much in deepstrike that I might not be able to utilize well.

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [62 PL, 931pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Stygies VIII

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Dominus [7 PL, 90pts]: Macrostubber, Relic: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Volkite Blaster

Tech-Priest Manipulus [5 PL, 90pts]: Transonic cannon, Warlord

+ Troops +

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 65pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 2x Skitarii Ranger
. 2x Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): 2x Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 65pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 2x Skitarii Ranger
. 2x Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): 2x Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 65pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 2x Skitarii Ranger
. 2x Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): 2x Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 35pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 4x Skitarii Ranger

+ Elites +

Servitors [4 PL, 20pts]
. 4x Servitor (Servo arm)

+ Fast Attack +

Ironstrider Ballistarii [4 PL, 60pts]
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Autocannon

+ Heavy Support +

Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 210pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Incendine Combustor, Kastelan Fists
. Kastelan Robot: Incendine Combustor, Kastelan Fists

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 119pts]: Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 112pts]: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Icarus Array

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [39 PL, 600pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Graia

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Lucius

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Mars

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 30pts]

Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 30pts]

+ Troops +

Skitarii Vanguards [7 PL, 120pts]
. 6x Skitarii Vanguard
. 3x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): 3x Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Arc Pistol, Power sword

Skitarii Vanguards [7 PL, 120pts]
. 6x Skitarii Vanguard
. 3x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): 3x Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Arc Pistol, Taser Goad

Skitarii Vanguards [7 PL, 120pts]
. 6x Skitarii Vanguard
. 3x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): 3x Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Arc Pistol, Taser Goad

+ Elites +

Sicarian Infiltrators [12 PL, 180pts]
. Infiltrator Princeps
. . Flechette Blaster and Taser Goad: Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad
. 9x Sicarian Infiltrator (Flechette/Taser): 9x Flechette Blaster, 9x Taser Goad

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [25 PL, -1CP, 468pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

[Reference] Warlord Traits (All)

Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait

Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom

Household Choice: House <Custom>, Questor Mechanicus

+ Lord of War +

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 1CP, 468pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord Trait: Cunning Commander
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer

++ Total: [126 PL, -1CP, 1,999pts] ++

If the second detachment is mixed one, then drop arc pistols and weapons from vanguards and give them data theters. for one it gives you target for doctrina start, and two, it reduces chance for losing plasma to morale. Other than that, this list is supper dependent on terrain. And katpahrons are new hotness because its additional good unit, but nothing above that.
About list... nothing outstanding, but also nothing to weak. Aldought i would rather take some dragoons instead of single balistarii.

I only own one magnetized chicken sadly. I will give them DT.
Why do you think the list is dependent on terrain, because of the 6 snipers? I thought having a big deepstriking force would somehow negate that, plus onagers are mobile too.

 0XFallen wrote:

 Spera wrote:

 0XFallen wrote:
I know everyone is at the kataphron trip atm. I personally dont use them nor electropriests for aesthetic reasons and want to look at non Cawlstar lists.
Main plan is to have tough and long range units, which are then supported by a massive deepstrike having first turn shroudpsalm and 2nd turn rerolling 1s.
Main concern is that I have too much in deepstrike that I might not be able to utilize well.

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [62 PL, 931pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Stygies VIII

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Dominus [7 PL, 90pts]: Macrostubber, Relic: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Volkite Blaster

Tech-Priest Manipulus [5 PL, 90pts]: Transonic cannon, Warlord

+ Troops +

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 65pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 2x Skitarii Ranger
. 2x Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): 2x Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 65pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 2x Skitarii Ranger
. 2x Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): 2x Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 65pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 2x Skitarii Ranger
. 2x Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): 2x Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 35pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 4x Skitarii Ranger

+ Elites +

Servitors [4 PL, 20pts]
. 4x Servitor (Servo arm)

+ Fast Attack +

Ironstrider Ballistarii [4 PL, 60pts]
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Autocannon

+ Heavy Support +

Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 210pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Incendine Combustor, Kastelan Fists
. Kastelan Robot: Incendine Combustor, Kastelan Fists

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 119pts]: Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 112pts]: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Icarus Array

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [39 PL, 600pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Graia

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Lucius

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Mars

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 30pts]

Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 30pts]

+ Troops +

Skitarii Vanguards [7 PL, 120pts]
. 6x Skitarii Vanguard
. 3x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): 3x Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Arc Pistol, Power sword

Skitarii Vanguards [7 PL, 120pts]
. 6x Skitarii Vanguard
. 3x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): 3x Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Arc Pistol, Taser Goad

Skitarii Vanguards [7 PL, 120pts]
. 6x Skitarii Vanguard
. 3x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): 3x Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Arc Pistol, Taser Goad

+ Elites +

Sicarian Infiltrators [12 PL, 180pts]
. Infiltrator Princeps
. . Flechette Blaster and Taser Goad: Flechette Blaster, Taser Goad
. 9x Sicarian Infiltrator (Flechette/Taser): 9x Flechette Blaster, 9x Taser Goad

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [25 PL, -1CP, 468pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

[Reference] Warlord Traits (All)

Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait

Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom

Household Choice: House <Custom>, Questor Mechanicus

+ Lord of War +

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 1CP, 468pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord Trait: Cunning Commander
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer

++ Total: [126 PL, -1CP, 1,999pts] ++

If the second detachment is mixed one, then drop arc pistols and weapons from vanguards and give them data theters. for one it gives you target for doctrina start, and two, it reduces chance for losing plasma to morale. Other than that, this list is supper dependent on terrain. And katpahrons are new hotness because its additional good unit, but nothing above that.
About list... nothing outstanding, but also nothing to weak. Aldought i would rather take some dragoons instead of single balistarii.

I only own one magnetized chicken sadly. I will give them DT.
Why do you think the list is dependent on terrain, because of the 6 snipers? I thought having a big deepstriking force would somehow negate that, plus onagers are mobile too.

Because you need to hide your units using los and gaining cover if possible. This army does have mainly t3, and you will be in enemy range of fire, possible in rf even, you need terrain to minimize friepresure that our opponent can exert on your units. You have knight but you will want to contest midfield objectives with vanguards and other ds-ers, and if you loos them to fast you may table your opponent but still lose on points.

So i finally received my Cerastus Atropos and i was wondering if any of you had played one in the past, and if you did, how did you use it?

Wondering if this is a good idea:

Going to bite the bullet and try out this Elimination Volley thing. Just hide a minimum unit of Destroyers somewhere and pop them out for a surprise plasma. Monitor Malevolus to help maintain my CP. Moved the Dragoons into the Stygies detachment to save 1 CP. Big unit of Stygies Breachers that can be infiltrated to create depth, two Stygies Rangers for Engineers secondary. Raiment to discourage people from directly charging my Dakkabots (very sad about the un-buffed Overwatch).

Decided not to run Graia because I want the Shroudpsalm for my Martians. Also, not sure if I can afford to use 1-2 CP to deny psychic. I am looking to burn 6-9 CP in a single round of shooting, then 3-5 CP on rounds two and three.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Wondering if this is a good idea:

Spoiler:

Mars Battalion Detachment - 1249
Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)

HQ - 275
1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Technomartyr

Troop - 214
3x Kataphron Destroyer - 3x Plasma Culverin, 3x Phosphor Blaster
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle

Heavy Support - 440
4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster

Fast Attack - 320
4x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 4x Twin Cognis Lascannon

Stygies VIII Battalion Detachment - 748

HQ - 60
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Warlord: Monitor Malevolus
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 280
7x Kataphron Breacher - 7x Heavy Arc Rifle, 7x Arc Claw
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle

Fast Attack - 408
6x Sydonian Dragoon - 6x Taser Lance

Total: 1997 points
12 CP

Going to bite the bullet and try out this Elimination Volley thing. Just hide a minimum unit of Destroyers somewhere and pop them out for a surprise plasma. Monitor Malevolus to help maintain my CP. Moved the Dragoons into the Stygies detachment to save 1 CP. Big unit of Stygies Breachers that can be infiltrated to create depth, two Stygies Rangers for Engineers secondary. Raiment to discourage people from directly charging my Dakkabots (very sad about the un-buffed Overwatch).

Decided not to run Graia because I want the Shroudpsalm for my Martians. Also, not sure if I can afford to use 1-2 CP to deny psychic. I am looking to burn 6-9 CP in a single round of shooting, then 3-5 CP on rounds two and three.

Looks perfectly good really. If you wanted more CP you can remove two Dragoons and a Breacher for a min Graia Battalion. With that list I'd be out of CP in turn two for sure, possibly turn one if there's a need to Acquisition At Any Cost and auto-pass morale on the Breachers.

That's a good idea. But ugh. But there's so many dead points...

Yeah I get that, it's a bit of a bind. I always debate with myself about whether the extra CP from a min detachment is worth the sort of dead points. Hard to say no to enough extra CP for another turn WoM + EV. Also buys you some more screens, two characters for blocking deepstrike and the deny strat.

So to clear this out once and for all.

Mixed detachment can include CAWL cause battlescribe does not let me.

Anyone with some serious answer?

The only limitation for Cawl I know about is he has to come with a <Mars> keyword. But as we can include <Mars> in the <mixed > I see no reason why wouldn't we be able to do so - no part of his rules restricts us at least.

 Yoda79 wrote:
So to clear this out once and for all.

Mixed detachment can include CAWL cause battlescribe does not let me.

Anyone with some serious answer?

In BS you have to set your forgewhile as mixed before he can be added. otherwise it has to be mars.

so I have just purchased my third plastic (GW) Enginseer. and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to make him stand out a bit/make him look different from the others. I am not looking for a huge adjustment just a few mionr tweaks here and there.

 The Forgemaster wrote:
so I have just purchased my third plastic (GW) Enginseer. and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to make him stand out a bit/make him look different from the others. I am not looking for a huge adjustment just a few mionr tweaks here and there.

My first Enginseer was actually a small conversion/kitbash because I wanted to build an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, so I cut off both his hands and replaced them by a transsonic blade and a flechette blaster. He stayed this way ever since.

I got the Tech-Priest from the Rogue Trader box and I'm going to use him as a second Enginseer, he don't have a melee weapon but who cares.

I got info from a contact, that says the Transport is due with the release of apocalypse that is scheduled for the end of june. Hope reveals are coming soon.

@The Forgemaster
I have two of the Macrotek Enginseers, one regular plastic one, and the Anvil London Inquisitor with a spare servo arm attached to him.

If you want differentiation, would just add bits, maybe swap the head.

@0XFallen
I cannot wait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I have been reviewing AdMech lists, and I have spotted some trends.

Successful AdMech lists tend to have the following:

2x4-6 Breachers, typically Stygies or Mars
4x Mars Dakkabots, sometimes with 3x Plasmaphrons
2x5-6 Ryzaphrons + 3x Dakkabots
5-6x Stygies Dragoon Bomb
12x Stygies Fulgurites + Drill
Krast Crusader

More rarely:

15-20x Lucius Corpuscarii
7-10x Mars Infiltrator
Ironstriders, usually in Brigades
Krast Warden or Styrix
Raven Castellan

I think it's becoming more apparent that the top dog is going to be Astra Militarum. The Eldar aircraft spam list seems to have lost popularity after BAO. Eldar tends to be Warlocks supported by a few aircraft now; see my battle report for a good example. Tau doesn't seem to be able to overcome the combination of Wyverns, Chimeras, and Tank Commanders.

 The Forgemaster wrote:
so I have just purchased my third plastic (GW) Enginseer. and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to make him stand out a bit/make him look different from the others. I am not looking for a huge adjustment just a few mionr tweaks here and there.

Here's an easy way - you just need to change is pose from striding forward bolding, shoulders square to being slightly at an angle as if he is turning to face something. Fortunately the robes and the foot forward actually do a lot of work for you here, so all you need to do is change the angle of the head and arms, and it's pretty easy to trick the eye into thinking he's doing something wholly different from the stock model.

Arms are quite easy as the top of the hood/cowl conceals the shoulders and most of the upper arms. Cut the axe free of one hand, and then reattach the end and you'll find this shorter axe is the perfect height to hold vertically. Arms don't need a lot of messing with once you cut them free, just slightly rotating where the top goes up into the cowl and a cut at the wrist to rotate the hand - there's even a nice guideline for this built into the gauntlet. Free arm is now free to do whatever you wanted - as long you wanted an arm at rest...but a guard laspistol is the perfect size to cover up the join of the axe and his weird 'trigger mittens' seem almost designed for a weapon swap (plus he comes with a lasgun).

Then cut off the head and replace it with a Skitarii one.Takes a little trimming and is easier to do when it's in bits. Key thing is to not just try it all in one go, but to slowly chop off large bits and then tidy it up with a knife once the bulk has been removed.
I've used a cloaked ranger one but the 'neutral' hoodless/helmetless ones also look good (slightly more commanding even - but I liked the look of slight trepidation the wide goggles gave, perfect for a low ranking techpriest being ordered into a tombworld by some Archmagos in orbit).

Final part is then rotating the power arm and adding other gubbins to try to sell the new pose - lining up things with the new direction of his head.

Alright, so this weekend i busted out the forgeworld models at a weekly league-tournament thing that my LGS is organising. Usually forgeworld models are opt-in but for that tournament, anything goes. I tried a list with the drill, hoplites and an atropos.

It was a slaughter.

I ended up against eldar and the only thing he managed to kill was 2 vanguards. He put everything he could in the atropos but didnt manage to take it down. I then proceeded to table him before his second turn.

Now there was a lot of bad rolls on his part but i feel like the Mechanicus-alighned knights (basically all the ones that have a melee invuln and permanent RIS) are really good since they allow the rest of the army to use most CP's.

I've played with crusaders/gallants before and they would chew through so many CPs that the rest of the army would underperform. I personally run a sevitor maniple with destroyers so thats 2 cp/turn, i'll usually use the +1/+2 to hit stratagem every turn, dunestriders, rage of the machine and a splash of tech-adept so my cps get used pretty quick for the main force.

I remember @Suzuteo running a krast(?) Styrix a while back and now im really tempted to try it out.

What was the Eldar list? That Warlock + aircraft list is scary in its wound output.

And yeah, the Krast Styrix is pretty strong. He's got a great variety of weapons and can really put the hurt on T7 and T4 enemies. A lot of elite armies actually rely on those two bands. Very efficient in terms of CP expenditure too.

Ultimately though, I switched over to Crusader for BAO, but I actually feel it underperformed. Not having an invulnerable save while fighting was definitely a problem. I think I was less willing to throw him into CC against enemies than normally. Shooting was also mediocre in any game where I had to deal with minus to hit and primarily <10W enemies.

This all being said, I am not sure if a solo Knight is optimal in ITC anymore. The likelihood of having to deal with another Knight is much lower now, and many lists have ways to kill a solo Knight, which means free Kingslayer for them.

I personally am switching to 6x Dragoons. Fast-moving with infiltration; high attack count, hit, and strength melee attacks; and minus 2 to hit is a nightmare for many lists to deal with, especially BS4 armies like Tau and Guard. I think the latter is definitely the list to beat now.

 Suzuteo wrote:
What was the Eldar list? That Warlock + aircraft list is scary in its wound output.

And yeah, the Krast Styrix is pretty strong. He's got a great variety of weapons and can really put the hurt on T7 and T4 enemies. A lot of elite armies actually rely on those two bands. Very efficient in terms of CP expenditure too.

Ultimately though, I switched over to Crusader for BAO, but I actually feel it underperformed. Not having an invulnerable save while fighting was definitely a problem. I think I was less willing to throw him into CC against enemies than normally. Shooting was also mediocre in any game where I had to deal with minus to hit and primarily <10W enemies.

This all being said, I am not sure if a solo Knight is optimal in ITC anymore. The likelihood of having to deal with another Knight is much lower now, and many lists have ways to kill a solo Knight, which means free Kingslayer for them.

I personally am switching to 6x Dragoons. Fast-moving with infiltration; high attack count, hit, and strength melee attacks; and minus 2 to hit is a nightmare for many lists to deal with, especially BS4 armies like Tau and Guard. I think the latter is definitely the list to beat now.

i will make a point that the list i played against definitly was not a highly competitive list.

Out of memory it ran :
4 dark reapers
5 dark reapers
1 hemlock

1 wave serpent
5 wraithblades
1 spiritseer

1 warp hunter
1 avatar of khaine

farseer warlord

rangers + dire avengers to fill out the list.

it had a lot of anti-tank so i was expecting my knight to die when he said he was putting everything in him. Luckily i denied Jinx with graia and he whiffed on his doom/guide so that heavily nerfed his damage output, still had to live through a shooting phase + an avatar of khaine melee phase.

I personally dont run knights anymore, i'd rather stay pure admech. (This weekend i did play knight so i'd have fun with my forgeworld stuff). dragoons are really strong, i should really get my 6th one. at the moment i've been having a lot of success with a 15 fulgurite blob ran as stygies with a manipulus to slingshot them across the board for the possible T1 charge.

I'm really interested in us getting rules for those new FW armiger variants; Especially the Volkite + siege claw + rad cleanser combo on the more affordable platform having two mini styrix would be awesome!

Octovol wrote:
I'm really interested in us getting rules for those new FW armiger variants; Especially the Volkite + siege claw + rad cleanser combo on the more affordable platform having two mini styrix would be awesome!

Me too, i love the carapace that they give to forgeworld knights. Sadly i feel like were going to wait a looong time before we get any rules. Just look how long it took for the Acastus Asterius to get released. And it ended up not having rules for 40k.

Speaking of the Asterius, while i love the look of the porphyrion, the acastus is a no-go for me for one single reason (dont look if you dont want the model ruined for you)

Going to enclose this in spoiler tags, just in case:

 Suzuteo wrote:
Going to enclose this in spoiler tags, just in case:

Spoiler:

Maybe you assembled it wrong?

Seems to fit to me. >_>

He's talking about the Asterius, not the Porphyrion:

Oh i dont own either of the acastus chassis.
The porphyrion looks amazing overall but the asterius isnt quite as polished, the back armor being a good example of why.
Also, for two knights of the same chassis, they barely look similar apart from the legs.

all the other chassis are easily recognizable, the asterius doesnt even have the same way of linking the weapons to the body

So our traditional 1k tournament is around the corner and am trying different lists again.

First was 3 dakkabots + Cawl and tons of screening

2nd was a Stygies battalion with a crusader

Now I am going to try more sicarians and had this idea:
I normally have a stygies and a graia battalion, what if I put the sicarians infiltrators in the stygies battalion instead to have the possibility when going first, to deploy them normalla and let them scout ahead.

Are 6 Snipers way too much, although I do love them?

Current list at 998points is:

Stygies Bat:
Dominus+Manipulus
3 sniper teams ( are 6 snipers too much?)
8 infiltrators with tazer+ flechette
1 Dragoon for leadership ( Id like to have more, but I hate transporting them and the whole process of painting and assembling them)
1 Onager Icarus
1 Onager Neutronlaser( Should I swap it for another Icarus?)

Graia Bat:
2 Enginseers
3 Vanguards squads

What About somthing like the following:



on your list personally I would keep the Neutron onager as you do not have a lot of other units in your list capable of killing tanks easily (not many other tanks in 1k will probably have an invulnerable save.
you could also swap the dragoon for an ironstrider as that can help take down flyers whilst still providing ld buffs?
no there are never enough snipers in an admech list...