Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 19:01:03


Post by: Verviedi




Unit Analysis:
Spoiler:

Our best HQ by far - giving rerolls to hit for all models within 6". Cawl is the core of our army, and an integral part of the "CawlStar" (Kastelans, Cawl, Datasmith, and a screening unit). Very much worth his pricetag for what he does.

His armament is hardly to be laughed at, but is very much secondary to his utility usage. The Solar Atomizer's short range makes it a semi-decent CC monster deterrent (it will generally do significant damage to Carnifex sized creatures), but it being in range signifies that you're in a dangerous position. Kastelans being locked in combat generally spells doom for our army, if we cannot resolve the situation quickly.


Now that we have Enginseers to serve as a cheap HQ, the Dominus isn't particularly useful. Unless you're unable to run Cawl (say, you're playing mono-Stygies or mono-Lucius), I would advise skipping him. The TPD is simply not effective enough for his high price. The Cerebral Techno-Mitre, however, gives him some value, as well as the limited reroll aura.

Tech-Priest Enginseer
Not particularly useful, but he’s cheap, and can repair Dunecrawlers and Kastelans. Mostly serves the purpose of saving 70 points on an HQ slot in Battalion detachments, or as an HQ in Stygies lists when you don’t want to take a Cerebral Techno-Mitre.

Skitarii Vanguard
Controversial. Mathematically, they put out an incredible amount of damage, but are hamstrung by slow movement and low range on the Carbines. Now that they’re 8 ppm, they can have more of a role, especially in Graia armies. According to the mathhammer, Vanguard actually have more firepower than Neutronagers against pretty much anything but Terminators. Plasma Calivers could possibly be worth it, because of high damage.

However, Vanguard are quite fragile, and tend to die in droves due to low leadership, T3, and a 4+ save. Mechanicus has limited ability to mitigate leadership, with Onager data-tethers being close to the only way outside of expensive data-tether upgrades. Mass Vanguard with the Graia forgeworld dogma is potentially viable if Mechanicus ever gets defensive auras or mobility options for Skitarii infantry.


Gambling unit. For 17pts per model you have a little bit overpriced glass cannon, but if you meet certain prerequisites you get underpriced murder machines. They have normal movement(6”) and decent WS(3+), okay LD(8) and two attacks with crazy good weapon.

They can give mortal wounds at rate making Death Guard jealous. First giving at charge on 6 per model, and then in combat on 6+to wound d3 mortal wounds instead of normal damage. That thing can drop any tough target down, even superheavy, and if you would need to, you can repeat this electropounding with 3cp.

But there is a catch. They are only T3 W1 with 6+/5++/5+++. It wouldn’t be bad if they were not so high in target priority of your opponent. And here comes twist. If you wipe unit in fighting phase, they get 3++ for the rest of the game. Suddenly you have quite sturdy unit that punches like hammer. You want to use stygies stratagem to place them in optimal range from your opponent (9”+from enemy if first, somewhere in midfield behind LOS blocking terrain if second). If you went first, GG they probably single handily won you the game, if second you need to use them carefully since they are probably in unit size of 10+ and you don't want them to evaporate under enemy fire and morale loss.
You can also use Lucius startagem, but I saw to many failed 9” charges to add even more gambling to this equation.

Hordes are their weakness, since they deal multi wound damage, but not so many hits. Also, 2+ wound damage, since it almost nullifies their fnp. Never aim their first charge at something that they couldn’t destroy in first take. If you multicharge, activate them first. Vehicles, monsters, MEQ and TEQ are their preferred target. They are in destructive potential probably on par with Kastellans, but much trickier to pull of. Once they are in SuperSayan mode, they force your opponent to dedicate tremendous power to stop them from rampaging through their back line, giving rest of your army easy time. High risk, high reward unit.


Corpuscarii are relatively cheap, not troop’s level cheap, but 14 pts/model isn’t much for power they offer and for role they are going to do. They aren’t super durable since 5+ inv and 5+ FNP is just barely better (55% vs 50%) than 4+ on 1D attacks. You can’t bump their defense by cover or Shroudpsalm, since their normal save is 6+, and T3 doesn’t help either in world where bolters are common. And you would need every bit of defense since their weapon range is only 12”.
Now, their weapon is 12” assault 3 shots s5 ap0 and D1 exploding 6+ on hit rolls giving you 3 instead 1 hit AND 2 attacks in melee with the same stats. That is a lot of daka averaging with 33,(3) hits of 10 man shooting. It’s bit better than storm bolter in rapid fire range. What they lack in range, they add up to their value in melee averaging on 17,(6) hits on 10 man unit. That’s 50 hits in one round.
Their role is to get in front of your gunline with vanguard, catch charges and deny your opponent from deepstriking and fast attack units, preferably holding objective at the same time. They want to do that on high power opponents, like TEQ with plasma, scions with plasma, harlequins etc bikes. Preferred unit size is 5-10, anything over that will suffer from morale rolls. Look for places with LOS blocking terrain and hold that. Only horde type troops can reliably reclaim objective from them, since other ones won't stand chance in 1v1.
You could also drop them in size of 20+ with Lucius stratagem delivering nasty amounts of daka, but that may quickly backfire with morale rolls. Use with caution to sweep enemy backline objective holders on turn 2 or 3 and lock or distract artilery.

Their best Dogmas are Sygies and Graia(boost defense), then Metallica. They don't benefit from Lucius. They lack serious synergy since we don't have any way to give them +1to hit. There are few stratagems that we can use them with, mainly Wrath of mars, Acquisition at any cost, Legio teleportarium, Clandestine Infiltration and Zealous Congregation, of which three are Forge World specific.
Not bad unit, but overshadowed by other that can do its job better(Sicarian Infiltrators, Dragoons) pushing priest to semi-vanguard role, even harder since codex came out.
6,5/10


Dragoons are the fastest unit in the Adeptus Mechanicus codex aside from Mechanicum Knights. Despite their speed, they are a surprisingly durable unit, due to T6, -1 to hit from Incense Cloud, cover in the open from possible Shroudpsalm, and no damage table. Dragoons should always be taken in a Stygies detachment, which grants it a monstrous -2 to hit past 12" making it impossible for Ork-level shooting to damage them, and causes supercharged plasma to explode 50% of the time. Stygies also grants a stratagem to allow Dragoons to infiltrate, which forces your opponent to adopt a more defensive posture--a situation in which you as a shooting army are clearly favored.

They have two weapon choices. The first is the Taser Lance, which allows AdMech to take a unit that is capable of fighting. It is the preferred option. Although 5 points cheaper, the Radium Jezzail suffers greatly from a lack of AP, is inferior to the Transuranic Arquebus, and is not recommended in any situation.

The primary role of Dragoons is to serve as a screening unit to prevent enemies from getting into close combat with your shooting units. They can also skirmish to tie up enemy screens and other shooting units in close combat, and grab objectives cleared by your artillery. Finally, they may act as shock cavalry to destroy T6-7 vehicles, especially transports and artillery. The size of a Dragoon unit dictates its usage, as the Dragoon's large 105x70mm base causes issues when piling-in--both for yourself and your opponent.

A unit of 1-2 is ideal for screening, as the unit can be deployed at maximum coherence without ever fearing being unable to pile-in correctly. The proper formation is a wall, with the Dragoons' sides facing the enemy. This wall should move sideways toward the enemy and should pile-in so that enemy models cannot fit in between the two Dragoons. Without any additional screening units, two units of 2 is considered ideal for a 2000 point army.

A unit of 3-4 is ideal for a shock cavalry role. With the Conqueror Doctrina Imperative stratagem, a unit of Dragoons becomes a battering ram. Normally mediocre Taser Lances explode on 4+, which in a unit of 4 translates to 24 S8 AP-1 D2 attacks that hit on 2+. A unit of 3 can be expected to consistently kill any T6 transport (such as Taurox Prime), and a unit of 4 any T7 transport (such as Razorback). A unit in this role should always be the last in your army to deploy, as you must position it as far to the opponent's flank and rear as possible. The proper formation for a unit of 3 is a wedge, with two Dragoons following a lead Dragoon facing the enemy, and the proper formation for a unit of 4 is a square, with two parallel lines facing the enemy.

When charging as a large unit, move your Dragoons together as far to the target's side as possible; the enemy should be on the immediate left or right of your Dragoons, a hair's breath under 1". After fighting, you may consolidate an addition 3". Use this to move further past and behind the enemy, being sure to end the consolidation move less than a hair's breadths under 1". The goal here is to get within 1" of as many shooting enemy units as possible. This "sliding" technique is essential for two reasons: 1) Tying up additional enemies without having to take Overwatch. 2) Allowing you to penetrate into the enemy rear by falling back past the enemy the following turn.


This is good unit. Durable, mobile and brings firepower. Priced either 75pts/model with Twin Cognis Autocannon or 95pts/model with Twin Cognis Lascannon which is good price.
They lack -1 to hit them of their Dragoons brothers but that isn’t big deal. Solid in every way.
The real question is how do they compare to other similar units form Ad mech army.
Vs Dunecrawlers;
They bring higher density of high power daka vs Neutronager and Similar vs Icarus Aray and Eradication Beam per point, as three Lascannon Balistarii cost more or less same points as two Onagers depending on equipment. Less durable, but don’t have damage chart and won’t lose power with accumulated wounds.
Vs Kastelans;
Significantly less power with a bit less durability. Have slightly higher range but can buff Leadership of friendly nearby <FORGE WORLD> models and again have superior mobility.

Both Kataphrons are overshadowed by them: better durability, mobility with comparable power.

Take them if you need flexible unit that can fit in different play style, maneuver on battlefield to utilize LOS blocking and hunt appropriate targets. Utilizing LOS is clue of this unit so if table don’t have appropriate terrain you won’t be able to utilize them to their full potential. If you don’t want to just castle up they are for you. They will be good screen and area denial unit vs DS, although Dragoons are better for that. Very good in Mono Stygies and Lucius armies, since Cawll is not factor there. Less favorable for Mars but still good. Occasionally you can explode them for 1cp when they die if 1MW would make difference.
Swiss Knife type that will be useful in every game, just not as good at certain tasks as dedicated units.
Sprinkle units of one to fill up brigade fast attack slots or get little more anti armour and area covering.
Bring unit of 3+ to fill gap in your list, gaining durable daka, freeing your robots. It is also worth of mentioning that for 1 cp they bring way to shoot Culexus assassins on 4+ if Assassin lists prevail in meta, being one of few ways in Army to deal with character shenanigans.


Mechanicus Knights are super-heavy Lords of War. They are the fastest, most powerful non-character units in the Adeptus Mechanicus codex, if not the game. However, because they lack the <Forge World> and Adeptus Mechanicus keywords, they are denied key synergies with the rest of the codex. Thus, you will often be fielding Knights with AdMech in support rather than the other way around.

Weapons
For melee weapons, Feet are your best option for everything up to TEQs (surprising, I know). Beyond that, the Gauntlet is optimal; the mortal wounds from throwing vehicles can really build up. Chainsword is only better than Feet against low toughness, high wound targets (such as Tau Commanders), and only then just barely.

For ranged weapons, Avenger is surprisingly strong against a variety of targets, from GEQs up to TEQs and Battlesuits. Thermal Cannon (TC) is your best shooting option against tanks T8 and above, but underperforms otherwise. Rapid-fire Battle Cannon (RFBC) is slightly more consistent in the T6-T7 range, but it is very expensive and finds itself in an awkward spot. You see, in order for a Knight to make its points back, it NEEDS to get into melee combat, but most of what you're paying for in the RFBC is its range.

As far as carapace weapons go, Stormspear is the best choice in every case. Don't bother taking the Meltagun; it's overpriced for what it does.

Knight Setups
1) Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear (516)
The standard to hold all other Knights up against. Feet and Avenger are the strongest anti-infantry. Gauntlet and Stormspear are the strongest anti-tank.

2) Crusader with TC (512)
A more shooty option, which is useful against Conscript blobs and Green Tide armies that can deny almost the entire backline. Feet and Avenger are the strongest anti-infantry, and TC performs anti-tank. Don't be afraid to get into close combat with this unit! You can always fall back and shoot, as I will explain below.

Add a Stormspear for a bit more anti-tank, but be wary of over-investing.

If you want to use an RFBC, you would use it here. However, as mentioned above, you will be wasting points.

3) Errant with Gauntlet and Stormspear (480)
A dedicated tank-hunter and the cheapest competitive setup. Feet perform anti-infantry, while the rest of the setup is just brutal anti-tank.

Don't bother with the Gallant. It's cheap, and you get what you pay for. It's still WS3+ and A4 like the other Knights, and the Chainsword is redundant. A waste of points. The Paladin is also subpar because it ties a long-ranged ranged weapon to a melee weapon; if you want an RFBC, opt for a Crusader instead.

As for how to build an army, there are two simple choices: two Knights or three? If two, you can have a sizable AdMech Battalion with Crawlers and Kastelans to diversify your army. If three, you will still have an AdMech Battalion and an additional 3 CP, but the Battalion is strictly for screening only.

Strategy and Tactics
When using Knights, you always employ a dominant strategy: kill everything that kills Knights, then table your opponent. Of course, this plan is at its most vulnerable early on. You will want to screen it from alpha strikes, especially melta squads. However, despite your best efforts, being shot at is inevitable, so spam Rotate Ion Shields if your opponent aims anything with more than AP-1 at your Knights. Each turn, you should also be repairing with your Enginseers; Tech-Adept allows you to repair 2 wounds (4 with Necromechanic), and if any of your Knights go under 13 wounds, use Resurgent Machine Spirit; it's worth it.

When maneuvering your Knights, always be looking to get a charge in. You deal terrifying damage in CC, and most things that threaten you aren't good at fighting a Knight. When positioning yourself, you want to do these things:
1) Keep your Knight between the Enginseer and the enemy. This is especially helpful early on, but not an absolute must.
2) Cover up your legs if possible. No, seriously. You don't ever want to use Knight of the Cog, and +1 Sv for standing behind something is useful.
3) Tying up as many enemy units in fighting as possible with your consolidation move. Basically, after you make a charge, move within a hair's breadth under 1" of your enemy. After fighting, consolidate 3" to move less than a hair's breadths under 1" from the enemy. The goal here is to get within 1" of as many shooting enemy units as possible. This "sliding" technique lets you tie up additional enemies without having to take Overwatch; remember, the more enemies falling back, the less shooting you take.
4) Being in the ideal place for the next charge. You want to consider where you will be moving next turn. Nothing can really outrun an Imperial Knight, so you may want to move "through" enemy units using the Super-Heavy Walker rule to be closer to the next target. You also want to take advantage of terrain and LOS whenever possible.

To bring it all together, every turn, you can fall back 12" to a hair's breath under 2" from the enemy on any side, shoot, then charge back in under 1", pile-in 3", fight, then consolidate 3".


Relics:
Spoiler:
If your army is led by an Adeptus Mechanicus warlord, then you can give one relic to an Adeptus Mechanicus Character. Keep in mind named Characters like Belisarius Cawl can't have any relics, so I'll be giving advice based on the generic Characters. You have access to one free relic, and can buy a second one for 1 CP, or a third one for 3 CP (1 Relic = Free, 2 Relics = 1 CP, 3 Relics = 3 CP).

ARCANA MECHANICUM

Universal:
Pater Cog-Tooth: Replaces an Omnissian Axe, so usable by a Tech-Priest Dominus or an Enginseer. It gives 1 more Strength and 1 more Damage than an ordinary axe. It would be a waste on an Enginseer with his poor CC skill, but a Dominus would hit at S6 with it. It's an odd statline, because you wouldn't face that much T6 models except against Xeno armies like Aeldari flavours or Tyranids. It would probably be best against the latter, as Tyranids are more likely to face you in CC than Drukhari Raiders for example. Could be useful on a Stygies VIII Warlord with the Xenarites Studies trait, as you'd add +1 to your Wound rolls and so wound T7 models on 4+. So it's a highly specific relic that could be useful in a Xeno-heavy meta, otherwise you'd be best to leave it in the reliquary.

Anzion's Pseudogenetor: Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1D6 additional attacks with this S4 AP-1 D1 weapon. Clearly meant to deal with hordes, you could use this on a backfield character, like a Datasmith or Tech-Priest, to deal with tarpits that reach your artillery so as to dispose of them faster and get back firing earlier. Otherwise, could be used offensively against horde armies with a Tech-Priest supported by Infiltrators with Tasers for clearing the area. There are more useful relics, but it's not terrible either.

Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land: The bearer regains 1W lost earlier each turn, and allows him to reroll the die for the number of Wounds repaired when repairing a friendly Adeptus Mechanicus unit. It's a great relic, best used on a Dominus dedicated to repairing your artillery like Onagers and Robots, as it greatly enhances the lifespan of those units. Best used with the Necromechanic Warlord trait, as you'll reliably heal between 2 and 4 Wounds per turn, maybe double that if used with the Tech-Adept stratagem. Your Onager ate a Lascannon shot ? There it's fixed. The regenerating 1W per turn in just the cherry on the cake, in case Snipers noticed you you just heal between 2 and 4 Wounds with your Dominus each turn. A must-have in any army that relies on its artillery.

Uncreator Gauntlet: Replaces a Power Fist, so usable only by your Datasmith. It's a regular Power Fist that deals a Mortal wound each time you successfully wound a Vehicle with it. Not worth wasting a slot for this most of the time, the only use I could see for it is to make your Datasmith useful when accompanying Punching Bots, but it's a highly situational/useless Relic otherwise.

Phosphoenix: Replaces a Phosphor Serpenta, so usable only by a Tech-Priest Dominus. It's a S5 AP-3 D1 Ignore Cover Assault weapon. I don't see the use of this to be honest, its statline being great against TEQ but you'd still need the 3 shots to hope to bring one down so that looks like an underperforming weapon to me. Could be used with the Xenarit Studies Warlord trait to wound Xeno T6 units on a 4+ but that's a lot of adjusting to do to make it usable. Not worth a Relic Slot.

Raiment of the Technomartyrs: Gives the bearer a 6+ FnP equivalent, and each time a friendly <Forge-World> model within 6" of the bearer shoots in Overwatch and obtains a 6 to Hit, this model can make a bonus attack with the same weapon (this bonus attack can't generate more bonus attacks). The only way I see to make this item useful barring the FnP is to use it near Corpuscarii Electro-Priests to try to trigger even more Tesla shots, otherwise hoping to have one or two more shots in Overwatch won't likely change the game. Congrats if you manage to get a bonus Neutron Laser attack with it, though. I'd not recommend it, but it's a way to add more survivability to a character otherwise.

The Skull of Elder Nikola: Once per game, in your Shooting phase, the bearer can use this to deal one Mortal Wound to each enemy Vehicle unit within 2D6" on a roll of 2+. Not worth it at all, keep away from this. One mortal Wound will never help you more than the other available relics we have access to.

Omniscient Mask: Allows you to reroll failed Hit rolls in CC for friendly Skitarii units within 6" of the bearer. The only Skitarii units that would benefit this are the Sicarians and Dragoons, and they'll both be faster and most likely far away from your relic bearer. Using the Conqueror Doctrina Imperative for 1 CP is costlier but far more effective than this relic, because they'll hit on a 2+ and their Taser weapons will proc on a 5+ for Infiltrators and 4+ for Dragoons. A way to use this would be if somehow you screened your backline with Sicarians near your relic bearer and artillery and want to defend against a charge more efficiently, but it's still a situational relic that'd be best left for another one.

Forge-World specific:
Graia - The Cerebral Techno-Mite: Tech-Priest Dominus only, gives +1 CP at the start of the battle if your army is Battleforged. Don't buy another relic for this obviously. Could benefit a Graia Detachment if you're hungry for CPs, but as it will be your only relic you'll have to consider if it's absolutely necessary to have this bonus CP. I'd not recommend it, seeing how easier it is to grab CPs now that we have a 52 pts HQ.

Mars - The Red Axe: Replaces an Omnissian Axe to give it an AP-5 profile instead of AP-1. It's not great at all, as your Dominus/Enginseer won't have enough Strength to reliably wound the targets that have a 2+ armour save. Avoid !

Lucius - The Solar Flare: Once per game, at the end of any of your Movement phases, the bearer can teleport instead of moving normally. Remove him from the Battlefield and replace him anywhere within 30" of his previous position and 9" away from any enemy units. Could be useful when playing Maelstrom missions when you have a card that asks your Warlord to control a certain objective for example, given there's no enemy nearby. Could be useful to save your Warlord's backside from a tedious situation and deny your opponent the Slay the Warlord.

Metalica - Adamantine Arm: Gives a Melee S*3 AP-3 D3 weapon to the relic bearer. You can only hit once each time the bearer fights in CC with it though, so hitting at S12 might be tempting but for just 3 Damage you'd best leave it where it is. Not worth taking.

Stygies VIII - The Omnissiah's Hand: The bearer rolls a die at the end of each Fight phase for each enemy unit within 1" of him, on a 4+ that unit suffers a Mortal Wound. Could be useful if your bearer gets assaulted by Characters or something, but in that case he will probably die before fighting anyway so it's not worth picking this relic.

Ryza - Weapon XCIX: Replaces a Volkite Blaster, so usable by a Tech-Priest Dominus only. Changes the profile to a S7 AP-1 D2 weapon with the same Mortal wound on a 6+ to Wound ability. If you run Ryza and really want a powerful weapon for your Dominus this can be nice, as it's a nice anti-vehicle weapon, but keep in mind you have access to the First-hand Field Testing Warlord trait that gives +1S and +1D to a weapon of your choice barring a relic, so you just win a AP-1 with this. It's a choice between a relic slot and a Warlord trait.

Agrippina - Eye of Lexum: At the beginning of each of your Shooting phases, pick an enemy Vehicle unit within 18" of the bearer, and all friendly Agripinaa units can reroll 1s to Wound against that target until the end of the phase. If the target is a Chaos Vehicle, you can reroll all failed to Wound rolls against that target until the end of the phase instead. Can be great when used with Onagers, when you really need to destroy a Vehicle.


Strategy:
Spoiler:
Wrathbots

This strategy revolves around a specific combination of models, rules, and strategems. The concept is simple, but gives our already powerful Kastelan robots an added buff.

Forge World: Mars
Strategem(s): Wrath of Mars (2CP), Binharic Override (1CP)
Key Units:
Belisarius Cawl
4-6 Dakkastelan
Datasmith [Optional]

Overview:
The “Dakkastelan” - or a Kastelan Robot configured with a trio of Heavy Phosphor blasters - is the lynchpin and ideally we want to take a larger squad for economy of CP. Each Robot puts out 9 shots in Aegis (the default) or 18 when in Protector Protocols.

Once your Robots and Cawl are in position, you either switch to Protector Protocols via a Datasmith or Binharic Override. The unit of Dakkastelans should be within Cawl’s Lord of Mars Aura. This allows all friendly Mars units to re-roll their to-hit rolls in the Shooting Phase. The volume of fire plus the increased number of hits via re-rolls means that when we use Wrath of Mars, we have a large pool of hits which will ideally translate to additional Mortal Wounds.

This simple strategy enables our already deadly Robot unit to deliver a staggering number of Mortal Wounds, giving us an answer to large threats like Magnus.

By-the-Numbers:
Six Dakkastelans puts out 108 shots in Protector Protocols. On average rolls with Cawl’s Aura, this translates to roughly 80 hits. The likelihood of rolling a 6 to trigger a Mortal Wound via Wrath of Mars is 16%, meaning around 13 mortal wounds in a single round of shooting in addition to our standard damage. This is why Wrathbots will be a staple of all AdMech lists, because being able to one-round extremely tough units is an asset. It also increases our overall damage pool, meaning we can wipe out additional models from units, making this a solid strategy for knocking out must-kill horde units in addition to tough single-model units.

Goondozer

This strategy is a general formation of models utilizing specific buffs. Sydonian Dragoons with Taser Lances under Conqueror Doctrina Imperative and the Chant of the Remorseless Fist Canticle. Due to the addition of -1 AP to the Taser Lance and the new strategem, this unit becomes our premier close-combat unit.

Forge World: Stygies VIII
Stategem(s): Conqueror Doctrina Imperative (1CP), Clandestine Infiltration (1CP), Machine Spirit's Revenge (1 CP) [Optional]
Canticle(s): Chant of the Remorseless Fist
Key Units:
4+ Sydonian Dragoons w/ Taser Lances

Overview:
This strategy is straight-forward and powerful. Forge World Stygies adds an additional layer of protection from shooting, adding to our innate -1 to-hit via Incense Cloud, for a total of -2 to-hit from shooting outside of 12”. This is a major boon to keep our unit alive so it can close in and start getting locked into combat(s). Via Clandestine Infiltration, we can position our Dragoons as close as we dare to the opponent’s units - given that we can make our normal movement of 10” and declare out charge, we do not need to be so close as to allow the enemy to move up and shoot within 12”, though. Position just where you think best via pre-measuring movements/ranges to enable a likely charge.

Each Dragoon has a Broad Spectrum Data-tether, which is a prerequisite for the Conqueror Doctrina Imperative to provide its maximum benefit, which is +2 to-hit in the Fight phase. The reason this is impressive is due to the Taser Lance triggering on a 6+, meaning under this strategem it will trigger on a 4+, leading to significantly improved chances to get the three hits instead of just one.

In addition to the strategem, we should strive to get the Chant of the Remorseless Fist activated, to allow us to maximize our hit potential via re-rolling 1’s in the Fight Phase. This gives us more chances to roll 4+ and have our single miss turn into three hits instead. With the addition of -1 AP on our weapons and the high strength of the attacks translating our increased volume of attacks into a high volume of wounds, we should be able to put out a solid amount of damage in a single round. Given the nature of our army, having a solid close-combat element can be vital for locking into place units while we address others via our artillery.

By-the-Numbers:
A unit of six Sydonian Dragoons with Taser Lances will start with three attacks each, for a total of eighteen initial attacks. Half of these will result in a 4+, meaning 27 attacks from our exploding hits. Of the 2 or 3 misses we get via 1’s, when we re-roll via Chant, we will get an additional 1 or 2 hits - for additional chances to explode. This translates into about 30ish hits or more, meaning against most enemies we are wound on 2+, for a total of about 25 wounds at -1 AP. Even against toughness 8 models, we are doing 15 wounds. Those are the two most common scenarios for our Goondozer unit to encounter. Given our high toughness, modest wounds, and somewhat mediocre save (4+), it would likely not be prudent to engage dedicated melee units, especially those with weapons that do d3 and d6 damage. That being said, we can always do a last resort Machine Spirit's Revenge when one of our Dragoons inevitably dies - exploding automatically and causing 1 mortal wound to each unit within 3”. Not particularly deadly, but in some instances it might prove useful.

[/b]Ryza's Green Stuff
This strategy makes use of Ryza's stratagem to maximise the damage output of plasma-heavy units.

Forge World: Ryza
Strategem(s): Plasma Specialists (1CP), Elimination Volley (2CP)
Key Units:
Dominus
Enginseer
1x6-9 Destroyers - plasma/flamer.
1x10 Vanguard - 3*plasma data-tether
1x10 Vanguard - 3*plasma, data-tether
1x2 Kastelans (Dakkastelans for multi dogma lists (if other screeningunits are present). Fists/flamers and +1 save for Ryza dogma)

Overview:
Use overcharged plasma for destroyers side by the dominus for a 5 round plasma overcharge. Use elimination volley gem for both destroyers and dakkastelans to receive +1 hit rolls . Use plasma specialists for extreme usage of plasma both on destroyers and vanguard.
The squad of 10 Vanguard, give them an Enhanced Data-tether, and 3 Plasma Calivers. Activate the Protector Doctrina Imperative Stratagem to hit with almost all of your shots, overcharge your Plasma Calivers to S8 D2, then activate Ryza's Plasma Specialists Stratagem to give +1 to To Wound rolls and +1 damage per shot.
Finish up the list with Rustalkers to benefit from +1 wound fishing mortal wounds and icarus onager for the heavy slots.
Can work in brigade solo Ryza lists teamed up with agripinaa dogma for immortal screener breachers-high survivng units.
+
Extreme mobility. High damage
Synergy with all units.
-
High cost units making each death important.
Low survivability,

Agrippina's Endless Tractors
Forge World: Agripinaa
Strategem(s): Fresh Converts (1-3 CP)
Key Units:
Dominus
Enginseer
1x3-7 breachers
1x3 breachers or 1x10 vanguard arc rifles
1x3 breachers or 1x10 vanguard arc rifles or 3-6 destroyers
1x2 robots if you bring destroyers for elimination volley.

Overview
Breachers will provide an extreme screener high surviving and obj holder units.
Prefer Agripinaa as a support detachment
Using the dogma for 5+ over watch while gaining one extra attack in new codex these tractors became an overall good unit. Combined with reduced cost you can use them effectively in almost any army to provide cheap solution for high surviving unit.
Fresh converts can be used to resummons a fresh brand new unit on your deploy zone. Spending cp s according to the unit you want to bring back to full strength you can decide in each battle what you need to get back on the board from kataprhons. It’s an extreme combination with healing as you most likely won’t lose all your models inside a unit at once.
Save one last wound on your last breacher and see your enemy cry as you bring the whole unit back alive in full strength.
Acquisition at any cost gem will make your “relic” holder breachers an immortal unit. Put them in cover near an objective or use shroudpsalm with the use of the gem and you got a 1+ 5+ t5 9 wound unit holding an obj with 4 att each. Combined with any other army will provide a good screener, good range and good survival detachment. Combined with Ryza plasma spam could be good combination list.

+
Surviving
Low cost/ effectiveness

-
Low damage
Can’t stand alone
Will face issues with vs horde armies if not teamed with other dogmas


Allies
Spoiler:



Sisters are awesome addition, since they exell where we lack and vice versa. Their main power is how fast they are. Most pure Adeptus Ministorum list base on that and take it to 11. Ad Acts of faith to mix and enjoy strong army, since the way this mechanic scale, it actually benefits smaller detachments of sisters. Additional movement, shooting, fighting in melee or reviving and healing models for one unit on 2+ on the beginning of your turn. . They all have 6++ on everything, unless unit have even better one, and most units can Denny the witch on one die.

Most notable Units.

Saint Celestine.

Star of army. Flying assassin useful against smaller characters but can go toe to toe with Demon Prince if used correctly. Gives nearby sister units 5+ inv. Rocks S7 ap-3 2D with 6 attacks on 2+ws and flamer 8” Assault d6 S5 ap-1 1D. 2+ and 4++ and ablative wounds in shape of her bodyguards that she can resurrect. 7 wounds, and she can come back with full health on 2+. Beside her T3 she’s total beast roaming up to 24” turn not advancing. 150pts +50 per gemina. And free guaranteed act of faith. Jezz she's under priced.

Cannones.

HQ that can actually fight compared to our TPD, WS/BS 2+ 4A S3 T3 3+/4++ 5W
Can take power weapons(sword, axe and mace) but most importantly Eviscerator Sx2 ap-4 d3D for 22pts, and plethora of ranged weapons. It buffs nearby sisters with reroll 1’s on hit in both shooting and melee.
All of that for 45 in basic version. Sisters are good in HQ game since this is cheap and not even tax.

Basic Sisters.

Statline of our troops with 3+/6++ save and 7\8 LD, two sisters can take either flamer, meltagun or stormbolter, and one of those two can alternatively take heavy equivalents of those weapons. Sister superior can take Power weapons, combi weapons or storm bolter wich is best option. Nice overall for 9pts/model.

Seraphims.

3’rd best unit in army, but only because how well they synergize with moma BIG C. They have stats of normal sisters but jetpack move 12” and ws of 3+. They rock two basic pistols for 11pts/model and you can take two with either 2x handflamer or 2x infernopistol witch is 6” melta. So 4 shots of melta per unit. Superior can take power sword and plasma pistol. They have reroll of their inv save, which when they are within 6” from celestine is 5+. (reminder: 5++ rerollable is better than 4++(55% vs 50%)). Take unit of 10 and send them with their acts of faith double move 24” to the enemy. Charge tanks through enemy models with fly if there is just enough space to land. They are primary target for acts of faith. Double fight, double shooting, double move, even regeneration. They can also DS.

Dominions

2nd best unit in army. Doesn’t look like much, since they have stats of normal sisters. They can take up to 4 flamers, meltaguns or stormbolters. Sister supperior can take equipment like her equivalents in other units. And here comes their vanguard special rule. They can move before start of game like if they had normal movement phase, but have to end more than 9” from enemy. So they can move and advance without penalty. And here is where fast and furious part comes up. They transfer this ability to transport they are in if there are no other units. And here comes two cars they like to ride.

Immolator

Our lamborghini. Capacity of up to 6 models, M12” T7 10W 3+/6++. Can ad hunter-killer missiles and storm bolter. But you take it for Immolator flamer. This bad boy punch on 12” assault 2d6 S5 -1AP 1D. Put dominions behind wheel and it will be in your enemy face on turn 1. And also can deny witch on one die. For 103pts. Delicious.

Reppresor (FW)

For 90 pts naked you have: 12” M 7T 12W 3+/6++ heavy flamer and one storm bolter and dozer ram. You have option for additional storm bolter or one more heavy flamer. Capacity of 10 infantry models and 6 of them can shoot outside thanks to firing points rulle. This is not open topped. You only get -1 penalty for move if you moved, but you can fire if reppresor fallback, advanced or is in combat(but can’t shoot into that combat). Yes, Dominions with meltas are usually what you are looking for this bad boy. Turn 1 5x melta from moving bunker anyone?

Honorable mentions:

Rhino: Rhino with 6++, when you need to get those Arco Flagellants or Repentias to those conscripts
Arco flagellants with Priest: Cheap melee unit that wreck faces. Full combo deals 27d3 attacks in melee. On 3+
Retributors: Heavy weapon specialists. You can take 4 heavy flamers and put them into repressor.

Tactics.
Take them supplementing your vanguards and screening units. Storm bolters on everything. Ultra cheap dakka that will be in rapid fire range. You will mow those hordes. Put units of dominions into Immos and bunker midfield. With good positioning this will be incredible good screen from DS and assault. Send Celestine with Seraphims to kill those psykers and other characters, or prevent artillery from shooting.

Pros
-Mobile
-Good anti horde and anti armour.
-Have one of best force multipliers in game.

Cons
-Models are pricey.
-Don’t have native psykers.


Forge Worlds:
Spoiler:


Credits:
Spoiler:

em_en_oh_pee - Wrathbots and Goondozer tactics
Aaranis - Relics overview
Suzuteo - Sydonian Dragoon, and Imperial Knight entry
Spera - Fulgurite, Ballistarius and Corpuscarii entry
Yoda79- Green Stuff and Infinite Tractors tactics


Links:
Link to the FAQ


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 19:27:31


Post by: Ideasweasel


So did we win then? Oo


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 19:39:00


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


That's a real [MOD EDIT - Language! - Alpharius] underwhelming pdf of an FAQ.

Want me to send stuff for the Allies section?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 19:45:52


Post by: SilverAlien


So, the new FAQ hit leading to no changes of note. I know some people were really hoping for more point decreases etc, but no such luck.

Edit: looks like I was a bit late, but yeah underwhelming is a good way of putting it.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 20:01:11


Post by: Fafnir


I'm pretty sure that the Dunecrawler had the same problem that was FAQ'd in the Index version too. They literally just copy/pasted the original entry without even proofreading it first.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 20:11:46


Post by: Ideasweasel


So does that mean that insane cheesy 4x shoot with a unit before the game starts wasn't even addressed?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 20:23:33


Post by: SilverAlien


Ideasweasel wrote:
So does that mean that insane cheesy 4x shoot with a unit before the game starts wasn't even addressed?


I think I missed something, what's this now?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 20:37:02


Post by: Yoda79


Faq is trash like codex. I guess my two strategies for Ryza and metallica you dont like.

I think i ll play guard. Wont spend a dime for this crap.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 20:44:05


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Yoda79 wrote:
Faq is trash like codex. I guess my two strategies for Ryza and metallica you dont like.

I think i ll play guard. Wont spend a dime for this crap.

There ARE no strategies for Metalica haha


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 20:44:22


Post by: Ideasweasel


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/740706.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SilverAlien wrote:
Ideasweasel wrote:
So does that mean that insane cheesy 4x shoot with a unit before the game starts wasn't even addressed?


I think I missed something, what's this now?


the link above this post champ. I doubt anyone would be such a try hard but thought it might get a mention in the batch of FAQ's maybe it will be next lot


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 20:45:38


Post by: Suzuteo


I noticed they didn't fix the fixed Crawlers. Lol.

So there are two things that come out of this as a consequence of RAW.

1) Stratagems apply to vehicle models, not units.
2) Scryerskull lets you shoot again for 1CP. (It says "shoot with an Adeptus Mechanicus unit..." not "when shooting with an Adeptus Mechanic unit...")


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 21:12:09


Post by: Verviedi


Yoda79 wrote:
Faq is trash like codex. I guess my two strategies for Ryza and metallica you dont like.

I think i ll play guard. Wont spend a dime for this crap.
Apologies, I can’t find them. Can I have a link?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 21:45:58


Post by: Yoda79


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/740395.page#9619716

Feel free to correct any issues you might detect not my native language.

Ryza Agripinaa sorry not Met.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 21:46:02


Post by: Suzuteo


 Verviedi wrote:
Yoda79 wrote:
Faq is trash like codex. I guess my two strategies for Ryza and metallica you dont like.

I think i ll play guard. Wont spend a dime for this crap.
Apologies, I can’t find them. Can I have a link?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/01/new-faqs-for-codex-death-guard-codex-adeptus-mechanicus-and-moregw-homepage-post-4/

Ours is one page, both questions having been addressed before.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 21:54:35


Post by: LexOdin9


Maybe we'll get another FAQ after the guard codex comes out, huh?

I think we really need it. I don't think that our codex was done properly.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 22:37:09


Post by: Yoda79


As of this week im convinced they got a plan. They release faq etc with their sales.

They sale what they want now since most dont get it. Play guard its superb and fun and cool. Some day when all stop playing this crap they ll wake up? When they see boxes stocked again.

Unf this company has nothing to do with hobby. Its sales only and in 2017 there other options sorry but im a demanding person will not pay copy paste codex. Released codex with index mistakes and nothing new only debuffing revampimg towards downgrading this army. Lost all the reasons we played this army. 10 boxes zero unit abilities. All gems they can have it. Till they work for it.

If your company cant keep up with the pace hire more or stop asking free money. Will go for other options than this crap. And id the gem to shoot again is playable then its broken tard design.

Codex released for two days and all forums ask new books maybe a faq something to change this crap and they drinking in gw. Having fun in chat and facebook. Well you know there are options we still play the game and they wont see a dime. Thats how should go simply put. Then you ll see if they get it. And they do when boxes stack in storage they release ina blink. Soon..


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 22:52:10


Post by: Tyel


I have this vague idea for an assault-focused variant, in a Brigade so lots of command points.
Go Stygies for the -1 to hit and infiltration stratagem.

HQ
1 Dominus
1 Enginseer
1 Enginseer

Troops
5 Vanguard - 1 Caliver
5 Vanguard - 1 Caliver
5 Vanguard - 1 Caliver
5 Vanguard - 1 Caliver
5 Rangers
5 Rangers

Elite
15 Fulgurites
15 Fulgurites
5 Infiltrators (Power Sword)

Fast Attack
3 Dragoons
1 Ironstrider - Lascannon
1 Ironstrider - Lascannon

Heavy Support
1 Icarus Onager
1 Icarus Onager
1 Neutron Onager

The basic idea would be to infiltrate the Fulgurites and Dragoons. If you get the first turn, put them down and attack with the Infiltrators. If you go second you might have to think about it. You would then have 9 command points which gives you a lot of options.

Immediate thoughts are that the full brigade might have too much bloat (although its really only a few points of rangers/vanguard assuming you go Battalion and another detachment). The value of the Dominus is a bit of a question mark. Arguably its worth it over just taking another Engineseer if you can bubble all the Onagers and Ironstriders but that may be difficult.

Wasn't really sure on the Vanguard over rangers. Tempted by melee Kastalens but they seem expensive.

Its an idea anyway.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 23:04:59


Post by: Yoda79


Dont buy nothing mechanicus. Then they will get the message . Only then the care. Now they selling new codex. When it settles and more will see its crap design they lll bother to sell more. Thats it.

Why cause the lists are made to work competitive with stratagems. Even if you manage to get 9-12 gems you can have any combination of big units? It just not enough points or detachments or a combination. Can fit so many issues in a list.

What they have done is let you go buy 20 priests or 30 vqnguard to try infiltring so many units just to understand you wontmhave result. Might win an armie but wont even play vs average. Same goes for all plans. You ll deep strike priests while enemy will deep strike termies. They will make tank lists that will rerol everything qnd shoot twice ans you lo beraly fit 3 single un buffed vehicles.

You just cant combine this crap. When guare will hve 12 gems regenersting 2 more / 5+ roll. With plasma alpha strike mortar and artillery. With transports mbark disembark even the low survivng troope and you ll try mqrching 100 points vanguard. Good luck 6-9 plasma shots no rerolls for 100 go try hard to understand??


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 23:19:18


Post by: Suzuteo


I agree that how strong the Guard codex is compared to the other codexes is very concerning. =\


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/01 23:36:03


Post by: Spera


Yoda chill out. We know in what state is Ad mech right now. And most out of us who stayed here will be playing it anyway.

Oh belive me, not buying stuff will actually make opposite effect. Codex will be neglected even more. Trust me, as a sister player I know what i'm talking about. 10 years of bad codexes if any, so far we got only big st C in plastic. The rule is, if it sells then support it more, hence why speech marheeens are getting all the love.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 00:29:40


Post by: Verviedi


Ryza Green Stuff, Agrippina Infinite Tractors (I'm never not going to feel silly writing that), and Ballistarii entry added to OP. My sincere apologies for being slow.



Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 02:31:10


Post by: str00dles1


Spera wrote:
Yoda chill out. We know in what state is Ad mech right now. And most out of us who stayed here will be playing it anyway.

Oh belive me, not buying stuff will actually make opposite effect. Codex will be neglected even more. Trust me, as a sister player I know what i'm talking about. 10 years of bad codexes if any, so far we got only big st C in plastic. The rule is, if it sells then support it more, hence why speech marheeens are getting all the love.


It is exactly this.

The less that people play it, the less they will care to do anything about it. The Codex power creep with this IG codex is pretty scary. It is disappointing for sure. I have 3k Admech painted up, was my first army getting back into 40k for 8th.

After seeing how little effort they put into it, and how much they did for IG I feel no reason to keep Admech. I don't even like IG, but I bet their fluffy rules will make them a ton more fun then Cawl and robots.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 03:33:33


Post by: SilverAlien


Ideasweasel wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/740706.page

the link above this post champ. I doubt anyone would be such a try hard but thought it might get a mention in the batch of FAQ's maybe it will be next lot


Oh dear lord, yeah that's not even ambiguous wording, it clearly isn't intended but they screwed up so badly it is 100% obvious the stratagem allows you to do that. That's absolutely hilarious and I will without a doubt abuse this if someone gets on my nerves.

str00dles1 wrote:
It is exactly this.

The less that people play it, the less they will care to do anything about it. The Codex power creep with this IG codex is pretty scary. It is disappointing for sure. I have 3k Admech painted up, was my first army getting back into 40k for 8th.

After seeing how little effort they put into it, and how much they did for IG I feel no reason to keep Admech. I don't even like IG, but I bet their fluffy rules will make them a ton more fun then Cawl and robots.


Two things

1. Spending money on subpar products also gives them no incentive to improve. So it really is a no win situation, from that perspective.

2. As frustrating as it can be to lack decent options, I do recommend looking at more flavorful and diverse allies as a stop gap. It isn't ideal, but it is what I did for quite a long time with my CSM, bringing in R&H. That's what I'm planning to do. Look on the bright side, fires will eventually bring us a lot of options, so it isn't like we are stuck waiting for our next codex.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 07:34:01


Post by: Aaranis


I'm thinking about buying more Scions to ally with my AdMech, they may have gone up in price (and rightfully so) but at least I can pretend I have transports and I'll be able to have good special rules compared to AdMech.

Seriously I'm disgusted with the Astra Militarum codex which is just AdMech one amped up to eleven, I don't know where to begin, the Vostroyans who have old Lasguns and so can justify shooting at 30" with them (I'd sure love having my Vanguards shooting at 24"), or their relic that gives you a CP back on a 5+ (us is a Warlord trait on a 6+ but you roll it for both you and your enemy). Their codex looks really fun and powerful and at least you're not stuck in a few key choices when building your army like the rest of us are, you can actually run fluffy thematic lists and it will always prove good when played properly.

I'll keep playing AdMech (I'll finally have my first match post-codex this week) but I think the next things I'll buy will be Scions or expanding my Drukhari army.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 07:48:10


Post by: Kandela


This has to be the saddest FAQ I've read and I've read a few sad FAQs in my career.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 07:49:28


Post by: SilverAlien


You can also buy tech thralls and use them as guardsmen or conscripts, that way when FW finally adds our Horus Hersey stuff in you can just mix it all back into your admech.

I'm going to keep shilling for those models because I legitimately love mine.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 07:59:48


Post by: interviglium


What a...disappointing FAQ/errata.

Also, I'm no maths genius, but using the dice-hammer website, it seems like a stock Cadian leman russ just using it's battlecannon is better anti-tank than a neutron onagers now (specifically vs targets with 5++), and not much more expensive (10-15 points I think?), while being a ton more versatile.

This...saddens me. I always see the Neutron laser as the best piece of non-super heavy anti-tank artillery the imperium should be able to field.

On the data front, tried a lower points game (1200) with a pair of infiltrated fistalens, but my abysmal onager rolling left them unsupported (a pair of them managed 9 damage to a forgefiend over 3 turns) and they quickly got burnt down. I could see it having some distraction value in higher numbers though (although it would have been nice for fists to be cheaper...)



Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 08:19:33


Post by: Yoda79


Exactly. We had onagers now lemman rush is even better with double shooting.

And that is also on top of a superb list building with tons of options from fulll guard to soup allies.

We had onagers now we lsot them. We had snipers now guard have boduguards ogryns. We had shooting now infantry disembark and embark on transports. We had robots they got 48 range and dont need los.

And thats only starting not gonna talk about free orders new orders gems relics.... they got a 5+ cp gain and reloc and warlord trait now hahahahahha

Its only how competitive they can play. Itd not only how fluf merges with playstyle. Its the numerous options to list building and versatile play that we used to have.

This codex exactly after our codex is a moacking in our face from this stupod design team. Its really bad.

I v said ti before i got guard i used it before even codexes. Competive required soup. I can play ig or soup marines or even necrons deldar slaneesh i dont care.

I dont like to be scammed. Now 8th has nothing to do with equal armies at all. You just wanted to sell boxes for no value. No

And sisters and ad mech yes are atm support detachments. Not armies. Codex is below average and index was enough. You should have worked codex properly if younask money and pretend you working in gw.

Did you see in faq post they wrote oh agripinna no need summon cost now even better to play? This is bad do you understand?
And if you dont have an issue its fine by me. But i got!!!

P.s. if we cant compete with broken units you believe you ll play games with 120 points Robot 4+ ws? That has 3 att and if you use prot younloose expensive flamer? Good luck with kataphrons rustalkers ,priest ,troops ,enginseers omg ,balistarii,fistelans,and 135 stock tpd. Good luck if you come in Greece look me up i ll gladly devastate your ad mech trash any day


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 08:32:15


Post by: Aaranis


SilverAlien wrote:You can also buy tech thralls and use them as guardsmen or conscripts, that way when FW finally adds our Horus Hersey stuff in you can just mix it all back into your admech.

I'm going to keep shilling for those models because I legitimately love mine.

That's some expensive Conscripts I love the models too but my budget is too limited to buy anything from FW just for counts-as, I'll wait for Fires of Cyraxus (I want to believe) before buying any FW stuff, even if I love all the models ! I watn to build a proper Legio Cybernetica so bad !

interviglium wrote:What a...disappointing FAQ/errata.

Also, I'm no maths genius, but using the dice-hammer website, it seems like a stock Cadian leman russ just using it's battlecannon is better anti-tank than a neutron onagers now (specifically vs targets with 5++), and not much more expensive (10-15 points I think?), while being a ton more versatile.

This...saddens me. I always see the Neutron laser as the best piece of non-super heavy anti-tank artillery the imperium should be able to field.

On the data front, tried a lower points game (1200) with a pair of infiltrated fistalens, but my abysmal onager rolling left them unsupported (a pair of them managed 9 damage to a forgefiend over 3 turns) and they quickly got burnt down. I could see it having some distraction value in higher numbers though (although it would have been nice for fists to be cheaper...)

Are you sure about the Leman Russ/Onager comparison ? Is it really that much better or just in some situations ? If that's true I'll go cry in a corner because I don't want to play a low tier army even if I love it. Glad someone tested the infiltrating Fistellans, did you use the reroll 1s to Hit canticle at the same time ? In any case you didn't have much luck with your dice, 9 Damage over three turns is just sad :/


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 09:05:25


Post by: interviglium


 Aaranis wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:You can also buy tech thralls and use them as guardsmen or conscripts, that way when FW finally adds our Horus Hersey stuff in you can just mix it all back into your admech.

I'm going to keep shilling for those models because I legitimately love mine.

That's some expensive Conscripts I love the models too but my budget is too limited to buy anything from FW just for counts-as, I'll wait for Fires of Cyraxus (I want to believe) before buying any FW stuff, even if I love all the models ! I watn to build a proper Legio Cybernetica so bad !

interviglium wrote:What a...disappointing FAQ/errata.

Also, I'm no maths genius, but using the dice-hammer website, it seems like a stock Cadian leman russ just using it's battlecannon is better anti-tank than a neutron onagers now (specifically vs targets with 5++), and not much more expensive (10-15 points I think?), while being a ton more versatile.

This...saddens me. I always see the Neutron laser as the best piece of non-super heavy anti-tank artillery the imperium should be able to field.

On the data front, tried a lower points game (1200) with a pair of infiltrated fistalens, but my abysmal onager rolling left them unsupported (a pair of them managed 9 damage to a forgefiend over 3 turns) and they quickly got burnt down. I could see it having some distraction value in higher numbers though (although it would have been nice for fists to be cheaper...)

Are you sure about the Leman Russ/Onager comparison ? Is it really that much better or just in some situations ? If that's true I'll go cry in a corner because I don't want to play a low tier army even if I love it. Glad someone tested the infiltrating Fistellans, did you use the reroll 1s to Hit canticle at the same time ? In any case you didn't have much luck with your dice, 9 Damage over three turns is just sad :/


So these are the numbers I ended up with - I may be falling short because I'm not sure how to represent the 3-6 damage on dice hammer.

vs t7 3+
Russ, standard, cadian (no orders) - 3.63 damage
Neutronager - d6 damage - 3.11 (too low due to D6)
Neutronager - averaging 4 damage - 3.56

Would love to be proved wrong though!

Regarding the game, it was Alpha Legion vs Stygies - I did have Chant up and running first turn, hit 4/6 with the fists on a forgefiend, wounded 2/2 and got one hit past the invuln. I'd multicharged the pair my opponent was running. In hindsight I should have gone all in and binharic overridden them to conqueror protocols after my opponents overwatch.

The daemonic maws on the forgefiends caused a bit of strife in return though - the lack of invuln in melee really stings, especially if you want to switch to punch-mode. IF the fists got a price drop, I could see some decent, fun uses for a squad of maybe 3 to cause some havoc backfield - nobody expects ninjabots.I did however, at the end of the game lament that 2 dakkastelans would have done a lot more for me.

Stygies and Dragoons is great, they either soak so much fire, or they cause a solid amount of damage to non 2+ save units, and I feel like once an opponent sees that once, they will always soak fire nicely.






Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 09:16:41


Post by: Marius Xerxes


Not that this is a IG thread, but a Catachan Russ is putting out a more consistent number of shots due to re-rolling any undesirable number for both shots.

Not sure how you can math that into damage output v a Neutronager.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 09:50:04


Post by: Fafnir


It was bad enough how the Admech codex was looking compared to its contemporaries before it, but seeing what's coming from the IG dex, Admech is looking just plain sad.

I had recently begun developing Admech into a major part of my Imperial Soup army, but I might end up just phasing them back out. Admech just doesn't offer much in comparison to the other codex armies, and we'll be stuck with this for a while. At least Dragoons are awesome (for now).


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 09:59:05


Post by: Suzuteo


My Knights write-up:

Spoiler:
Mechanicus Knights are super-heavy Lords of War. They are the fastest, most powerful non-character units in the Adeptus Mechanicus codex, if not the game. However, because they lack the <Forge World> and Adeptus Mechanicus keywords, they are denied key synergies with the rest of the codex. Thus, you will often be fielding Knights with AdMech in support rather than the other way around.

Weapons
For melee weapons, Feet are your best option for everything up to TEQs (surprising, I know). Beyond that, the Gauntlet is optimal; the mortal wounds from throwing vehicles can really build up. Chainsword is only better than Feet against low toughness, high wound targets (such as Tau Commanders), and only then just barely.

For ranged weapons, Avenger is surprisingly strong against a variety of targets, from GEQs up to TEQs and Battlesuits. Thermal Cannon (TC) is your best shooting option against tanks T8 and above, but underperforms otherwise. Rapid-fire Battle Cannon (RFBC) is slightly more consistent in the T6-T7 range, but it is very expensive and finds itself in an awkward spot. You see, in order for a Knight to make its points back, it NEEDS to get into melee combat, but most of what you're paying for in the RFBC is its range.

As far as carapace weapons go, Stormspear is the best choice in every case. Don't bother taking the Meltagun; it's overpriced for what it does.

Knight Setups
1) Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear (516)
The standard to hold all other Knights up against. Feet and Avenger are the strongest anti-infantry. Gauntlet and Stormspear are the strongest anti-tank.

2) Crusader with TC (512)
A more shooty option, which is useful against Conscript blobs and Green Tide armies that can deny almost the entire backline. Feet and Avenger are the strongest anti-infantry, and TC performs anti-tank. Don't be afraid to get into close combat with this unit! You can always fall back and shoot, as I will explain below.

Add a Stormspear for a bit more anti-tank, but be wary of over-investing.

If you want to use an RFBC, you would use it here. However, as mentioned above, you will be wasting points.

3) Errant with Gauntlet and Stormspear (480)
A dedicated tank-hunter and the cheapest competitive setup. Feet perform anti-infantry, while the rest of the setup is just brutal anti-tank.

Don't bother with the Gallant. It's cheap, and you get what you pay for. It's still WS3+ and A4 like the other Knights, and the Chainsword is redundant. A waste of points. The Paladin is also subpar because it ties a long-ranged ranged weapon to a melee weapon; if you want an RFBC, opt for a Crusader instead.

As for how to build an army, there are two simple choices: two Knights or three? If two, you can have a sizable AdMech Battalion with Crawlers and Kastelans to diversify your army. If three, you will still have an AdMech Battalion and an additional 3 CP, but the Battalion is strictly for screening only.

Strategy and Tactics
When using Knights, you always employ a dominant strategy: kill everything that kills Knights, then table your opponent. Of course, this plan is at its most vulnerable early on. You will want to screen it from alpha strikes, especially melta squads. However, despite your best efforts, being shot at is inevitable, so spam Rotate Ion Shields if your opponent aims anything with more than AP-1 at your Knights. Each turn, you should also be repairing with your Enginseers; Tech-Adept allows you to repair 2 wounds (4 with Necromechanic), and if any of your Knights go under 13 wounds, use Resurgent Machine Spirit; it's worth it.

When maneuvering your Knights, always be looking to get a charge in. You deal terrifying damage in CC, and most things that threaten you aren't good at fighting a Knight. When positioning yourself, you want to do these things:
1) Keep your Knight between the Enginseer and the enemy. This is especially helpful early on, but not an absolute must.
2) Cover up your legs if possible. No, seriously. You don't ever want to use Knight of the Cog, and +1 Sv for standing behind something is useful.
3) Tying up as many enemy units in fighting as possible with your consolidation move. Basically, after you make a charge, move within a hair's breadth under 1" of your enemy. After fighting, consolidate 3" to move less than a hair's breadths under 1" from the enemy. The goal here is to get within 1" of as many shooting enemy units as possible. This "sliding" technique lets you tie up additional enemies without having to take Overwatch; remember, the more enemies falling back, the less shooting you take.
4) Being in the ideal place for the next charge. You want to consider where you will be moving next turn. Nothing can really outrun an Imperial Knight, so you may want to move "through" enemy units using the Super-Heavy Walker rule to be closer to the next target. You also want to take advantage of terrain and LOS whenever possible.

To bring it all together, every turn, you can fall back 12" to a hair's breath under 2" from the enemy on any side, shoot, then charge back in under 1", pile-in 3", fight, then consolidate 3".


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 12:33:05


Post by: Yoda79


Great knight post Suzuteo.
Add 4) the gems and hot to use them. +1 invu canticles 5+ for mortals and top tier on damage chart.
Thanks either way

If the fw knights also have synergy with adeptus mechwnicus i can see crusader and porphurion in a list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So our new hq enginseer can.

Heal all friendly astra militarum units but only forge world specific ad mech ahhahaahhaha. We talking about some major designers here.


So to get on with it?
What ad is for.

Outrider Stygia

Enginseer to heal astra militarum. Can follow half speed lemmans

1*4+ dragoons
1*2 balistarii or 1*2 dragoon
1*2 balostarii or 1*2 dragoon for pew pew screen ig.

Rest can be astra militarum superb plasma drops and extreme mortars with 3 lemmans being more than enough. Best of ad mech list rest are crap. And did i mention you d have more than 12 cp + all 5+ 5+ rolls? Did i? Those skitarii shooters and lances will be spamming non stop. What cheat list


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 14:26:00


Post by: KampfKrote


I've been playing a Stygies Battalion/Mars Spearhead list a lot lately and have not lost. It feels super strong, and I want to experiment with a few things. I am considering trying out a Stygies only list, and infiltrating the Robots in along with a Dominus. It's probably a bad idea, but I've found that more often than not, my opponents will try to play around them. I've had them deny 3/4 of the board in the last 2 games I've played because my opponents know how strong they are. Idk what I will achieve with infiltrating them, but it seems fun?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 14:31:02


Post by: Octovol


I can only assume these codexes are balanced/tested in isolation from one another. There's no way the 15 point difference between a neutronager and leman russ battle tank justifies the differences.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 14:31:23


Post by: Yoda79


So our new hq enginseer can.

Heal all friendly astra militarum units but only forge world specific ad mech ahhahaahhaha. We talking about some major designers here.


So to get on with it?
What ad is for.

Outrider Stygia

Enginseer to heal astra militarum. Can follow half speed lemmans

1*4+ dragoons
1*2 balistarii or 1*2 dragoon
1*2 balostarii or 1*2 dragoon for pew pew screen ig.

Rest can be astra militarum superb plasma drops and extreme mortars with 3 lemmans being more than enough. Best of ad mech list rest are crap. And did i mention you d have more than 12 cp + all 5+ 5+ rolls? Did i? Those skitarii shooters and lances will be spamming non stop. What cheat list


Why would i bother with anything else ad mech when ig do it better more synergised and more fun not to mention top competitive. Not calculating relics gems regiments orders transports cp spamming etc etc etc.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 15:19:13


Post by: Silentz


KampfKrote wrote:
I've been playing a Stygies Battalion/Mars Spearhead list a lot lately and have not lost. It feels super strong, and I want to experiment with a few things. I am considering trying out a Stygies only list, and infiltrating the Robots in along with a Dominus. It's probably a bad idea, but I've found that more often than not, my opponents will try to play around them. I've had them deny 3/4 of the board in the last 2 games I've played because my opponents know how strong they are. Idk what I will achieve with infiltrating them, but it seems fun?

Kastelan Robots in bulk do seem to make opponents do strange things and make bad decisions.

Infiltrating them does sound fun but they work best when starting exactly 36" from the enemy so not sure what the benefit is!


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 15:49:46


Post by: Yoda79


Yea right 122 points for no cc save for a unit with fists meaning going up elite enemies. Bs 4+ no aura buff nthing. Why would waste 240 points??

Just make a 1*4 dragoons make 1*2 and 1*2 lasc ballistari nd keep the buffs comimg. Whats the problem.

Balistarii got -1 hit for screener while dragoon got -2 in 12 able to go second. Inflitrate is after deploy bla blamso you know where to put them if you got more points then another 1*4 dragoon.

Why get 15 priest? Better have 20 and 5. Buff the 20 man no need 2* 15. Ad mech need big units to take advantage of the gems else its a waste thats the problem...... you know? Big units high cost few options less detqchments. No way pass it. And even if youmgo for mass chep troops wont work since no comissar tomuse thm etc. Ad mech does not work. Can only take robots and dragoons cheapest bigmeffecfive units nothing else fits and it worse. The end

The theory behind priests and Robots is mortal wounds.

Priests 221 points 13 priests *2 att 26 hits. 1 gem for inflitrate 3 for double attack. Str 5 -2 d3 mortals instead of damage
Robots 220 points 18+36 hits 1 gem for double shoot str 6 rnge 36 6+ mortal in adittion to the damage.

Take Robots with Cawl is better. And since we talking ofc we need more and thats why we take dragoons. Why take 5+ 5+ priest t3 when you cwn have -2 hit t6 str 8 dragoon. Nope. If priests had infiltrate ability and you could take the as Mars that would be something with 2 canticles. But design team are trash.

Infiltrate : Dragoons> priests > vanguard > breachers> Robots.> rustulkers.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 17:03:09


Post by: SilverAlien


Octovol wrote:
I can only assume these codexes are balanced/tested in isolation from one another. There's no way the 15 point difference between a neutronager and leman russ battle tank justifies the differences.


I'm not sure why people think the LR in particular is so good. It isn't that impressive a piece of equipment. The standard battle cannon variant firing twice a round with no penalty puts out the exact same damage as our neutron vs toughness 7 3+ sv, less vs toughness 8 or 2+ save, though they can use the battlecannon on things like terminators or primaris somewhat effectively, if needed. We have an invulnerable save vs their extra toughness and wound. They can fit a bit more firepower onto each tank than we can, but we've got things like canticles and easier access to force multipliers.

All in all, russes are in a fairly decent place. I certainly wouldn't feel the need to run them over neutron onagers.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 17:07:39


Post by: gally912


I mean, as far as force multipliers go, Russ get orders, regimental bonuses, and more strats usable on them then onagers do. In addition to way more weapon options than just the two.

Oh and get obj secured.

My poor kidneys cant handle the salt.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 17:44:42


Post by: SilverAlien


 gally912 wrote:
I mean, as far as force multipliers go, Russ get orders, regimental bonuses, and more strats usable on them then onagers do. In addition to way more weapon options than just the two.

Oh and get obj secured.

My poor kidneys cant handle the salt.


Note that orders for tanks, outside cadian, include strike and shroud (as in what Stygies always has) or the ability to reroll 1s, as in what pretty much every onager will have from the single dominus, assuming you aren't running Cawl and mars. While their regimental bonuses are generally stronger than what we get, we still have Stygies being a total outlier. Also, canticles means we should st least be getting a cover bonus part of the time. As for stratagems, we have some amazing ones that boost BS, ignore penalties due to wounds taken, double how much they are healed, etc.

If you want to get salty about our infantry still being mediocre or the numerous bad units they didn't bother to buff I get that, but our onagers aren't being invalidated. Well, not by russes at least. Manticores, basilisks, and earthshaker batteries are a slightly different story, particularly mixed with catachan tactics and harker. Those are a bit more worrying.



Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 17:48:33


Post by: WrentheFaceless


Yes, we understand Astra is much better than everyone currently.

Can we get back to Ad Mech talk now?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 18:08:18


Post by: SilverAlien


 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Yes, we understand Astra is much better than everyone currently.

Can we get back to Ad Mech talk now?


I mean... There isn't a whole lot left to say about our codex. Our best builds barely changed form the index, besides more battalions because we have more affordable troops and a cheap hq option. Oh and you might put Cawl and his robot bros in a different detachment than the onagers now, for the better dogma.

Honestly, right now we should be discussing how much Admech we should run in our army to be competitive. Not even hyper competitive, just can we be a solid faction on our own, or have things gotten to the point we have to look elsewhere for support, and what do we bring to the table that is really going to stand out. Which means making comparisons to other armies.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 18:46:48


Post by: Fafnir


SilverAlien wrote:


Honestly, right now we should be discussing how much Admech we should run in our army to be competitive. Not even hyper competitive, just can we be a solid faction on our own, or have things gotten to the point we have to look elsewhere for support, and what do we bring to the table that is really going to stand out. Which means making comparisons to other armies.


Well, right now, I'm running about 640 points of admech in my local 1500 point league list (can't use the codex in the league though, as it came out too late, although it's not like I'm missing out on much), and I'm doing well dominating the entire thing. Dunecrawlers are great, and Dragoons are absolutely incredible.

With the exception of Kastellans, there's not much else I would bother considering over other Imperial options. Although I wouldn't add Kastellans to my current list, both because I hate the models, and more importantly, because their lack of mobility.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 19:14:41


Post by: Suzuteo


If we're talking tournaments, it does seem hard to compete unless the gloves come off. We've long been on the fence about Scryerskull's wording, but we may just have to insist it works as written. 1 CP to make any unit shoot, once per phase.

But yeah. I don't see us beating the now ironically nicknamed Lemons or Guard artillery spam (which is now virtually all AP-3).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thought: If 8E is going to be building lists around countering Guard, just like how 7E was about countering Eldar, we should take a page from the armies that did thrive in that environment.

In such a case, 100% Stygies armies or Knights-Stygies armies might be superior to the Mars-Stygies mix. I mean, Kastelans might have to go, since the new Guard artillery and tanks just wreck them. But we need something to counter infantry, and that means Wardens or Icarus (which is still 10 shots, mind you).


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 20:01:18


Post by: SilverAlien


Personally I see two big issues looming.

First, dunecrawlers with neutron in particular I'm starting to worry about. Less due to IG, who they can still out shoot by default, particularly with Stygies or Cawl. No, I'm more worried about them vs the new DG. They just do not like anything with an invulnerable save in the first place, and DR adds to the problem. When half the new models are daemon engines with DR, that's a bit worrying. If they start being a common sight the neutron may be in trouble.

Second, our kastalens are particularly vulnerable to low AP high volume anti tank weapons. Which are seeing a resurgence of now. Previously I was seeing more lascannons and assault cannons, both of which don't have quite the same impact on our beloved robots.

Personally, I'm thinking that the two factors might mean we need to go all in on kastalens, weirdly enough. Run a few smaller ones as Stygies so we have some that will survive a few turns in and could infiltrate even and one big one as Mars for the alpha. It's annoying for our list to be whittled down even more, but unless we wanna pull in other armies in may be our best shot.




Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 20:14:17


Post by: ph34r


Right now I'm thinking 1190p of AdMech, 810p of Astra Militarum:

++MARS SPEARHEAD++
Cawl 250
5 Rangers 40
3 Robots 330
3 Robots 330
Neutronager 140
Neutronager 140

++ELYSIAN VANGUARD++
Elysian Commander 40
Elysian Commander 40
Elysian Command Squad 4x plasma 56
Elysian Command Squad 4x plasma 56
Elysian Special Weapon Squad 3x plasma 51
Elysian Special Weapon Squad 3x plasma 51
Elysian Special Weapon Squad 3x plasma 51
Eversor Assassin 70

++CADIAN SPEARHEAD++
Cadian Commander, 5+ CP relic, 5+ CP warlord trait 30
Cadian Tarantula, heavy bolters 24
Cadian Tarantula, heavy bolters 24
Cadian Earthshaker Carriage, 4 crew 91
Cadian Earthshaker Carriage, 4 crew 91
Cadian Earthshaker Carriage, 4 crew 91

1996p, 6cp, 5+ gain CP when using CP, 5+ gain CP when enemy using CP


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 20:18:09


Post by: Wulfey


Scions got nerfed pretty hard and they were the best help admech had in soup. Not sure what to run now. Stygies battallion has so much tax, those 104 points of <STYGIES> enginseers do absolutely zero because they can't help your <MARS> tanks.

EDIT: to the above, yes, Elysians are currently the answer. If they aren't nerfed by the socal open I am going to run them. But they are up for a nerf if you follow the facebook pictures. The forgeworld facebook team says that there will be some kind of rules fix for them soon.

EDIT: to the above again, combine the two robot units. 1 unit of 6 will be more command point efficient when using wrath of mars. Yes, more vulnerable to getting tied up in melee, but you are basically playing a screen or die list. Might as well play to its strengths.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 20:33:50


Post by: ph34r


Wulfey wrote:
EDIT: to the above, yes, Elysians are currently the answer. If they aren't nerfed by the socal open I am going to run them. But they are up for a nerf if you follow the facebook pictures. The forgeworld facebook team says that there will be some kind of rules fix for them soon.
Could you elaborate on this?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 20:37:07


Post by: Wulfey


 ph34r wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
EDIT: to the above, yes, Elysians are currently the answer. If they aren't nerfed by the socal open I am going to run them. But they are up for a nerf if you follow the facebook pictures. The forgeworld facebook team says that there will be some kind of rules fix for them soon.
Could you elaborate on this?


Not sure if this link will work

https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22195810_1671659742853155_6485947072059391019_n.jpg?oh=4ca52f833c63e50cd54bc265f65148b1&oe=5A7DA3F7


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 20:46:46


Post by: Aaranis


Scions are not terrible because the cost for their plasma rifles has gone up, they're still very good and plasma is not the answer to everything. I've always had good results with just a Start Collecting as ally. My Command Squad is made of two plasma rifles and two meltaguns and they've proven really good alongside a Tempestor Prime while deep striking, even if I don't get the half-range bonus for the melta when arriving, sometimes they survive and so can close the gap and deal tremendous damage. I'm thinking about trying to run them in their Taurox alongside my regular Scions squad, made of a plasma pistol, a flamer and a HSVG. I could unload them closer to their target, and I could use the Command Rod ability from the Tempestor correctly this time (been using it wrong before, used to give two orders to the same unit :x). Plus, the Taurox Prime is an excellent anti-horde platform to deal with targets unworthy of the Kastelans. 30 S4 shots are not to be underestimated. And soon they'll get their Regiment Doctrine and more, I think I'll buy a second box of them.

I'll write a summary of our different Forge-World tactics and their Stratagems soon, when I have more time.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 20:47:31


Post by: Suzuteo


I would imagine Elysians would get some update to have their plasma guns match the profile as other Guard plasma guns...

Plasma guns are just as powerful as before. Their price just means you can't spam them as easily.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 20:52:26


Post by: Yoda79


Well we talking competitive? Is so then we need to utilize best of.

Since we are Primary adeptus mechanicus and since i want to remain in this topic.

Make detachments you can use in various armies.

That said i consider one mars battalion to be a must.

Mars battalion explained.
Shooter heavy its army flavor. Use what you cant find anywhere else with one detach.

Hq Belisarius Cawl. Reroll all hits all not miss!!!
Enginseer healing also ig.

Rangers 1*5 sniper omnispex
Rangers 1*5 sniper omnispex
Another or stock 1*5 vang for -1 t counter.

Now you can go as simple as 1*4-6 robots
And or 1-2 onagerd icarus maybe
Id suggest 1*4-6 dragoons with dual canticles mars or aux stygia.

These are all valid options. Wont find them anywhere else. Simply put.

What we need from ig.
1) cheap detachments including screener for robots. From ogryns to robots.
2) cheap tanks. Better than neutrons with ad mech healing and moving Cawl etc. No need to be stationary from turn 2+
3) cp s. Relic warlord trait etc. 5+ and 5+ extra cps.
4) deep strike options what you like. I like a mix of flamers melta plasma.
5) some options but can vary a lot once we read all codex. Combinations from regiments etc.

Dont waste points on units you can find better else where.

You can even make cheap brigade on ig but i suggest smaller regiments with flavor. Armagedon troops transports etc etc etc!!!


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 20:59:21


Post by: Suzuteo


Problem: We are no longer the best shooting army. Guard is.

I might actually just do Knights cheese down the road...


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 21:27:24


Post by: Wulfey


Suzuteo wrote:
Problem: We are no longer the best shooting army. Guard is.

I might actually just do Knights cheese down the road...


3x crusaders with some enginseers / psykers got substantially better. The +1 to ion shields strategem is pretty legit and a warlord traited enginseer can heal 4 wounds a turn if you spend a CP on the strategem.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/02 22:54:41


Post by: Suzuteo


I am thinking something like this:

Super-Heavy Detachment - 1503

Lord of War - 516
Knight Warden - Titanic Feet, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod

Lord of War - 512
Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber

Lord of War - 475
Knight Errant - Titanic Feet, Reaper Chainsword, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod

Stygies VIII Battalion Detachment - 496

HQ - 104
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Warlord: Necromechanic
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - The Omniscient Mask

Troop - 120
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle

Fast Attack - 272
4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

Total: 1999 points
9 Command Points

Goal is minimum units to go first. Alpha strike the crap out of them and get into melee.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 01:08:20


Post by: SilverAlien


Sound I found a list I rather like

Spoiler:

++ Mars Battalion ++
Cawl
Enginseer (with auto caduceus, for 1 cp)
3x5 rangers
1x6 kastalens

1082

++Catachan Battalion++
2x1 Lord Commissar (5+ cp refund WT on one)
Harker
3x20 conscripts
2x3 earthshaker battery

798

++Catachan Spearhead++
Company Commander (with Aquila relic)
3x1 tarantula+heavy bolter

102


So what's the logic behind the knight spam? They have fairly poor firepower for cost. Just tying to outlast the enemy?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 01:14:13


Post by: Wulfey


SilverAlien wrote:
Sound I found a list I rather like

Spoiler:

++ Mars Battalion ++
Cawl
Enginseer (with auto caduceus, for 1 cp)
3x5 rangers
1x6 kastalens

1082

++Catachan Battalion++
2x1 Lord Commissar (5+ cp refund WT on one)
Harker
3x20 conscripts
2x3 earthshaker battery

798

++Catachan Spearhead++
Company Commander (with Aquila relic)
3x1 tarantula+heavy bolter

102


So what's the logic behind the knight spam? They have fairly poor firepower for cost. Just tying to outlast the enemy?


What are you going to use for the earthshaker batteries, model wise? I like the list. It makes a lot of sense. Only thing I would consider would be swapping those tarantulas for a culexus, you are not hurting for Str5 firepower and should have enough CP to burn the auxiliary.

EDIT: I have a friend who wants to get into 40k. I was going to let him run a knight list to get a feel for the game.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 01:57:58


Post by: kastelen


there should probably be a datasmith just to make whichever type of kastelan you want to be better


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 02:19:30


Post by: SilverAlien


Wulfey wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
Sound I found a list I rather like

Spoiler:

++ Mars Battalion ++
Cawl
Enginseer (with auto caduceus, for 1 cp)
3x5 rangers
1x6 kastalens

1082

++Catachan Battalion++
2x1 Lord Commissar (5+ cp refund WT on one)
Harker
3x20 conscripts
2x3 earthshaker battery

798

++Catachan Spearhead++
Company Commander (with Aquila relic)
3x1 tarantula+heavy bolter

102


So what's the logic behind the knight spam? They have fairly poor firepower for cost. Just tying to outlast the enemy?


What are you going to use for the earthshaker batteries, model wise? I like the list. It makes a lot of sense. Only thing I would consider would be swapping those tarantulas for a culexus, you are not hurting for Str5 firepower and should have enough CP to burn the auxiliary.

EDIT: I have a friend who wants to get into 40k. I was going to let him run a knight list to get a feel for the game.


For earthshaker batteries I use the main portion non chimera portion of the basilisk kit, which I have magnetized so I can use it as a basilisk or earthshaker battery (or carriage if I ever could be bothered to build/purchase the carriage portion).

The tricky bit is the little platform it's mounted on. Mine are really basic little things made out of plasticard. I actually got a friend to do It for me, based on some rough dimensions we found online.

 kastelen wrote:
there should probably be a datasmith just to make whichever type of kastelan you want to be better


I just use the binharic override turn one, after I get them into position, so that I'm firing twice first turn. After you use that a datasmith can't change protocols anyways, so he'd be twiddling his thumbs mostly.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 04:46:03


Post by: Suzuteo


SilverAlien wrote:

So what's the logic behind the knight spam? They have fairly poor firepower for cost. Just tying to outlast the enemy?

In a competitive setting, you play to your greatest strength. Now that there is a shooting army that outranges, outguns, and outnumbers us, it is increasingly questionable if trying to outshoot them remains the better strategy. Going 100% Stygies allows us to outlast them. Going Knights allows us to take them in CC. As I point out in my Knight write-up above, most things that can threaten a Knight in shooting cannot threaten it in fighting. Knights can carve through Lemon Russes; the Errant build I posted deals an average of 19.3 wounds per round.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 04:56:36


Post by: SilverAlien


Suzuteo wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

So what's the logic behind the knight spam? They have fairly poor firepower for cost. Just tying to outlast the enemy?

In a competitive setting, you play to your greatest strength. Now that there is a shooting army that outranges, outguns, and outnumbers us, it is increasingly questionable if trying to outshoot them remains the better strategy. Going 100% Stygies allows us to outlast them. Going Knights allows us to take them in CC. As I point out in my Knight write-up above, most things that can threaten a Knight in shooting cannot threaten it in fighting. Knights can carve through Lemon Russes; the Errant build I posted deals an average of 19.3 wounds per round.


But... how do we get to the juicy center? Are the stomp attacks and guns going to be able to cut through the chaff faster than their guns cut through the Knights?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 05:46:20


Post by: Suzuteo


SilverAlien wrote:

But... how do we get to the juicy center? Are the stomp attacks and guns going to be able to cut through the chaff faster than their guns cut through the Knights?

Gauntlet and Stormspear, on average, kill a Lemon Russ in one turn. If the other gun is an Avenger, you are killing one minimum squad a turn. If it is a TC, you are crippling another Lemon Russ. Three Knights kill and cripple all of the Lemon Russes you would expect to be able to, if only you get in range in time. That means aggressive deployment and screening to prevent deep strikes. You also use Ion Shields, Tech-Adept, Resurgent Machine Spirit, etc. to stay alive.

You also also look to do something lame like using Dragoons in concert with a pair of Knights. The Knight charges a unit, and the other two Dragoons "pin" it in place. Makes it impossible for them to shoot you if done correctly. ("But we can't shoot the Knight, he's too close to that Razorback!")


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 05:49:54


Post by: SilverAlien


Well... yes the gauntlet kills russes of course, but that'll be turn 3 or 4 at the earliest.

Also an avenger kills a little less the. 7 IG or conscripts per turn. I'd assume most lists that we would be worried about run 80-100 at minimum.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 05:53:48


Post by: Suzuteo


SilverAlien wrote:
Well... yes the gauntlet kills russes of course, but that'll be turn 3 or 4 at the earliest.

Also an avenger kills a little less the. 7 IG or conscripts per turn. I'd assume most lists that we would be worried about run 80-100 at minimum.

It's a dominant strategy. Kill all the tanks and artillery. Then focus all efforts on killing the Conscripts. Goal is to table them. Don't even bother with objectives. You flat out won't win that race.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 05:55:11


Post by: brother_b


What about Lucius deep strike robots with phosphor hands and incendine flamers? Those things have a 12" range and auto hit. Then you can add in the shooting.Seems like that could do some serious damage to a blob.

Just thoughts.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 05:58:11


Post by: SilverAlien


Suzuteo wrote:
It's a dominant strategy. Kill all the tanks and artillery. Then focus all efforts on killing the Conscripts. Goal is to table them. Don't even bother with objectives. You flat out won't win that race.


Okay but again, how? You won't ever reach melee range with a Russ or artillery platform until you kill at least the majority of the conscripts. They can just screen you. Being able to fall back across models doesn't help if they don't give you any room for your model.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 06:16:17


Post by: Suzuteo


SilverAlien wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
It's a dominant strategy. Kill all the tanks and artillery. Then focus all efforts on killing the Conscripts. Goal is to table them. Don't even bother with objectives. You flat out won't win that race.


Okay but again, how? You won't ever reach melee range with a Russ or artillery platform until you kill at least the majority of the conscripts. They can just screen you. Being able to fall back across models doesn't help if they don't give you any room for your model.

As mentioned above, another neat trick is to infiltrate the Dragoons behind a Conscript blob. On your turn, charge everything at it, being sure to surround it. The Conscripts cannot escape, and assuming the tanks and artillery aren't Valhallan (they will probably be Tallarn or Catachan), they can't shoot your Knights or Dragoons. The next turn, the Knights can walk through the blobs and now they're in the back line.

Send in the Next Wave complicates things, but it costs a ton just to bring back Commissar-less Conscripts.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 07:14:59


Post by: Yoda79


Spoiler:
Suzuteo wrote:
I am thinking something like this:

Super-Heavy Detachment - 1503

Lord of War - 516
Knight Warden - Titanic Feet, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod

Lord of War - 512
Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber

Lord of War - 475
Knight Errant - Titanic Feet, Reaper Chainsword, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod

Stygies VIII Battalion Detachment - 496

HQ - 104
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Warlord: Necromechanic
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - The Omniscient Mask

Troop - 120
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle

Fast Attack - 272
4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

Total: 1999 points
9 Command Points

Goal is minimum units to go first. Alpha strike the crap out of them and get into melee.


Nice suzuteo. I d change the battalion to Graia. And aux dragoons stygies. You ll have a chance to deny a pshyc power and with same result. I know you wont be able to use mask but seems hard to make it work with an engiseer. You decide. Nice list might need some anti air on knights


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 07:33:17


Post by: Suzuteo


Oh right. Graia with Miter and a Stygies Auxiliary. Good idea.

I took Mask because everything else is either bad or not too useful with Knights. At least Mask can synergize with Dragoons.

I don't think we will see mass airbourne armies in this meta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, nevermind. It's Dominus only.

WHY IS OUR CODEX SO INFLEXIBLE? >_<


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 07:52:48


Post by: Yoda79


Its exactly the opposite. Unf thy just made sure we dont have any option. The extra cp is dominus yes. And not worth it. But still you ll need the rangers to footslog obj. Why not. I know engineseers could inflitrate in potiions to heal knights or mask dragoons. But from the little experience we got engiseer on crusader is the only possible strat and thats because you ll keeo a knight shooter to protct the back field deep strikes etc obj. Thats that . Else your enginseers will just die.

Feel free to try the msk but... you ll spend cp .
Maybe if you got tpd snipers and guard with 2 knights more versatile ...

Still making knight list on its own ensure that any list not antitank heavy has an issue by default thats one.
The gems will help with the rest. Seems good enough.

I ll make one using also my knight lancer!


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 08:37:47


Post by: Spera


How do you guys think, is it good idea to blind shoot and buy 30k stuff right now? I have good offer to buy much cheaper right now, but i don't wan't to be stuck with models for years.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 08:58:11


Post by: Yoda79


Usually i encourage players to play what they like. So always nice if you got the money to buy when you find good price the models you.

Pereonaly i dedclared a non buy peeiod in protest of the new codex


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 10:48:56


Post by: kastelen


I have a pure admech list and I'm just wondering what I could do to counter a wraithknight? I've got the 7ed start collecting plus cawl, a dragoon and dakkatelans. I'm just wanting some general tips and advice.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 11:37:56


Post by: str00dles1


Suzuteo wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
It's a dominant strategy. Kill all the tanks and artillery. Then focus all efforts on killing the Conscripts. Goal is to table them. Don't even bother with objectives. You flat out won't win that race.


Okay but again, how? You won't ever reach melee range with a Russ or artillery platform until you kill at least the majority of the conscripts. They can just screen you. Being able to fall back across models doesn't help if they don't give you any room for your model.

As mentioned above, another neat trick is to infiltrate the Dragoons behind a Conscript blob. On your turn, charge everything at it, being sure to surround it. The Conscripts cannot escape, and assuming the tanks and artillery aren't Valhallan (they will probably be Tallarn or Catachan), they can't shoot your Knights or Dragoons. The next turn, the Knights can walk through the blobs and now they're in the back line.

Send in the Next Wave complicates things, but it costs a ton just to bring back Commissar-less Conscripts.


But in any competive setting they are spread so you cant deepstrike behind them. 30 scripts and reallt spread out, then all the tanks behind them spaced out evenly to never allow you within 9 inches of their backs


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 13:57:36


Post by: Silentz


 kastelen wrote:
I have a pure admech list and I'm just wondering what I could do to counter a wraithknight? I've got the 7ed start collecting plus cawl, a dragoon and dakkatelans. I'm just wanting some general tips and advice.

I mean a wraithknight is just a big vehicle, and AdMech are great against vehicles.

Remember there's a relic which allows you to pick a vehicle and get +1 to wound against it. Would synergise extremely well with things that do a mortal wound on 6s.

I'd say your key units are...

- Kastelans with Wrath of Mars. S6 hits will only wound on a 5, but 6s will cause mortal wounds. 3 or 4 Kastelans will kill a Wraithknight in a couple of turns if you focus it.
- Belisarius Cawl's Solar Atomiser and Arc Scourge if you can get close enough. 12" range is the problem here!
- Breachers with Torsion Cannons are very strong against vehicles (although people rarely take them in lists!).
- Neutron Onagers
- Icarus Onagers with the Protector Doctrina so it hits on 2s.

- You don't have any but Fugurites will do work... take 10 and you'd expect 1-2 mortal wounds on the charge then about 3d3 mortal wounds in conbat. Plus the normal saveable wounds of course.

What's important with a wraithknight is to remember that they degrade after they lose 12 wounds... and that drop off is significant. Once they are down to 6 wounds you can sort of ignore them.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 17:08:00


Post by: Aaranis


 Silentz wrote:
 kastelen wrote:
I have a pure admech list and I'm just wondering what I could do to counter a wraithknight? I've got the 7ed start collecting plus cawl, a dragoon and dakkatelans. I'm just wanting some general tips and advice.

I mean a wraithknight is just a big vehicle, and AdMech are great against vehicles.

Remember there's a relic which allows you to pick a vehicle and get +1 to wound against it. Would synergise extremely well with things that do a mortal wound on 6s.

I'd say your key units are...

- Kastelans with Wrath of Mars. S6 hits will only wound on a 5, but 6s will cause mortal wounds. 3 or 4 Kastelans will kill a Wraithknight in a couple of turns if you focus it.
- Belisarius Cawl's Solar Atomiser and Arc Scourge if you can get close enough. 12" range is the problem here!
- Breachers with Torsion Cannons are very strong against vehicles (although people rarely take them in lists!).
- Neutron Onagers
- Icarus Onagers with the Protector Doctrina so it hits on 2s.

- You don't have any but Fugurites will do work... take 10 and you'd expect 1-2 mortal wounds on the charge then about 3d3 mortal wounds in conbat. Plus the normal saveable wounds of course.

What's important with a wraithknight is to remember that they degrade after they lose 12 wounds... and that drop off is significant. Once they are down to 6 wounds you can sort of ignore them.

Which relic are you talking about to gain +1 to Wound Vehicles ? The only relic close to your description is the Agripinaa one, and it's rerolls of 1 to Wound against a chosen vehicle, not a +1 to Wound. I'd love a +1 to Wound honestly.

Neutron Onagers are the best anti super-heavy we have, so with at least two and the right synergies in your list building (and right use of stratagems) you could easily kill one rather quickly, or at least wound it enough that it becomes less dangerous. I wouldn't recommend using anything that doesn't wound on a minimum of 4+, but given the Wrath of Mars stratagem the sheer amount of shots will suffice to cripple it easily enough.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 18:20:33


Post by: Suzuteo


str00dles1 wrote:

But in any competive setting they are spread so you cant deepstrike behind them. 30 scripts and reallt spread out, then all the tanks behind them spaced out evenly to never allow you within 9 inches of their backs

Actually, I realize what you mean now. Let me think on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If they block the entire backline, you pretty much just have to come in from the front. TC Crusader might actually be ideal because Conscripts can deny you ground to stand. Looking for areas to charge where the Conscripts cannot fall back is essential to protect your Knights from being attacked.

But yeah, it's annoying.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 19:44:12


Post by: MIKEtheMERCILESS


Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.

2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?

If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 20:04:48


Post by: LexOdin9


 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.

2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?

If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power


Magnus, a Leman Russ character with an Ogryn bodyguard, Mortarion with Deathshroud Terminators, an Imperial Knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm looking to start buying admech in prep for Cyraxus. Do you guys think Thallax and Ursarax will be in the book?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 20:53:38


Post by: ph34r


Probably Cyraxus will have all those units yes.

I wouldn't start planning on it. It could be a year away, or two, or it could never come out.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 23:19:27


Post by: MIKEtheMERCILESS


LexOdin9 wrote:
 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.

2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?

If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power


Magnus, a Leman Russ character with an Ogryn bodyguard, Mortarion with Deathshroud Terminators, an Imperial Knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm looking to start buying admech in prep for Cyraxus. Do you guys think Thallax and Ursarax will be in the book?


Not sure of the stats of Magnus or Mortarion, but 2 squads of 3 Balistarii are going to average around 18 wounds assuming a 5+ invunrable save - 27 wounds if not. Albative shields nonwithstanding (in which case they're hanging back with infantry instead of flying down the board at your army) - that's going to be taking big things off the board.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 23:25:41


Post by: LexOdin9


 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
LexOdin9 wrote:
 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.

2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?

If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power


Magnus, a Leman Russ character with an Ogryn bodyguard, Mortarion with Deathshroud Terminators, an Imperial Knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm looking to start buying admech in prep for Cyraxus. Do you guys think Thallax and Ursarax will be in the book?


Not sure of the stats of Magnus or Mortarion, but 2 squads of 3 Balistarii are going to average around 18 wounds assuming a 5+ invunrable save - 27 wounds if not. Albative shields nonwithstanding (in which case they're hanging back with infantry instead of flying down the board at your army) - that's going to be taking big things off the board.


Magnus: 4++ if he fails his psychic power (that's not going to happen often), 3++ reroll 1s if he succeeds with a 6+++.
Morty: I think he's a 4++ with a 4+++ or a 5+++

You might also have trouble dealing with a baneblade... that one I'm not sure about.

I highly recommend you bring as much mortal wound generation as possible to deal with the strongest 40k threats. Lascannons can't deal with strong invuln saves or high model counts.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/03 23:35:55


Post by: MIKEtheMERCILESS


LexOdin9 wrote:
 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
LexOdin9 wrote:
 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.

2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?

If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power


Magnus, a Leman Russ character with an Ogryn bodyguard, Mortarion with Deathshroud Terminators, an Imperial Knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm looking to start buying admech in prep for Cyraxus. Do you guys think Thallax and Ursarax will be in the book?


Not sure of the stats of Magnus or Mortarion, but 2 squads of 3 Balistarii are going to average around 18 wounds assuming a 5+ invunrable save - 27 wounds if not. Albative shields nonwithstanding (in which case they're hanging back with infantry instead of flying down the board at your army) - that's going to be taking big things off the board.


Magnus: 4++ if he fails his psychic power (that's not going to happen often), 3++ reroll 1s if he succeeds with a 6+++.
Morty: I think he's a 4++ with a 4+++ or a 5+++

You might also have trouble dealing with a baneblade... that one I'm not sure about.

I highly recommend you bring as much mortal wound generation as possible to deal with the strongest 40k threats. Lascannons can't deal with strong invuln saves or high model counts.


Wow thoes are horrible stats.. so Mars or bust?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 00:15:53


Post by: LexOdin9


 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
LexOdin9 wrote:
 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
LexOdin9 wrote:
 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.

2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?

If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power


Magnus, a Leman Russ character with an Ogryn bodyguard, Mortarion with Deathshroud Terminators, an Imperial Knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm looking to start buying admech in prep for Cyraxus. Do you guys think Thallax and Ursarax will be in the book?


Not sure of the stats of Magnus or Mortarion, but 2 squads of 3 Balistarii are going to average around 18 wounds assuming a 5+ invunrable save - 27 wounds if not. Albative shields nonwithstanding (in which case they're hanging back with infantry instead of flying down the board at your army) - that's going to be taking big things off the board.


Magnus: 4++ if he fails his psychic power (that's not going to happen often), 3++ reroll 1s if he succeeds with a 6+++.
Morty: I think he's a 4++ with a 4+++ or a 5+++

You might also have trouble dealing with a baneblade... that one I'm not sure about.

I highly recommend you bring as much mortal wound generation as possible to deal with the strongest 40k threats. Lascannons can't deal with strong invuln saves or high model counts.


Wow thoes are horrible stats.. so Mars or bust?


Stay strong and wait for Cyraxus... or an FAQ of some kind. In the meanwhile, see what I wrote below.

I did some math-hammer, guys, and I made some interesting observations that you may want to check out:

- If you take a 10-man squad of rusties, use the +1 to hit rolls in melee stratagem, and use the reroll 1's to hit canticle, you can generate a TON of mortal wounds. Good way to counter-assault a Daemon Primarch/Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince. I recommend taking them base with chordclaw/transonic razor for point efficiency. You're looking at about 4-8 total wounds to Magnus at his peak efficiency. That's actually really good. (200 points for a 10-man rusty squad)

- People have already done the math on dragoons, and we know they generate a TON of hits. But I found that they are REALLY good at busting through invuln saves as well. Consider running these guys into a weakened Magnus/Morty as well. 4 Dragoons will do 5-9 wounds total to Magnus at his peak efficiency when they have the +2 to hit rolls and the reroll 1's canticle.

Overall, I think the strongest part of our codex is point-efficient access to weapons that basically don't give a feth about invuln saves.

+ Multiple sources of mortal wounds (dakkastelans with WoM, corpuscarii with WoM, fulgurites, rusties)

+ Multiple sources of exploding hit rolls (infiltrators, dragoons, corpuscarii)


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 02:57:27


Post by: Vortenger


 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Units of 3 Lascannon Balistarii - Deep Striking on T1 thanks to Lucius, and hitting on 2+ with the general Strategm.

2 CP to ensure you can get 6 almost autohit Lascannons without worrying about losing your glass cannons before they can get the shots off, you're looking at what? 1-2 dead Leman Russes straight off the bat?

If you want to completely win the armour war, pack 2 squads - I really don't know what could survive that kind of fire power


My Scabreiathrax takes about 1/3 of a wound per lascannon shot. T9, 4++, 5+++, 22W, and the heal 1d3W Nurgle Power. He rightly ignores such squads. In light of similar threats,I agree with exploding hits and mortal wound generation as a great answer. My AdMech seems to be growing in that direction of late.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 03:27:07


Post by: Wulfey


Yeah I am super down on ballistari right now. Units of them can get the +2 to hit strategem, which is nice for hitting aircraft. But overall I think dragoons do more for the army and can put out comparable damage.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 04:51:10


Post by: kastelen


Wulfey wrote:
Yeah I am super down on ballistari right now. Units of them can get the +2 to hit strategem, which is nice for hitting aircraft. But overall I think dragoons do more for the army and can put out comparable damage.

They can be used as cheaper heavy weapons platforms though so there's that.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 05:41:46


Post by: LexOdin9


Using the new guard codex, here's my 2000p TAC list. I tried something new by making the list a sheet in google docs.

The point values are a bit off (I know scion plasma became more expensive) but I'll just count that into my 25 leftover points.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ecAa1RCkPW2YkRq-cRaF3vuRpTADDiMArwdrXJQQlvk

If you don't want to look at the google spreadsheet:

Adeptus Mechanicus (FW: Mars)
Vanguard Detachment:
Cawl
10 Fulgurite squad
10 Fulgurite squad
10 Ruststalker squad
4 Dragoon squad
4 Dakkastelan squad

Imperial Guard (Regiment: Militarum Tempestus)

Vanguard Detachment:
Tempestor Prime (power fist, plasma pistol)
4 Tempestus Command squad w/ 4 melta
4 Tempestus Command squad w/ 4 plasma
5 Crusader squad
5 Tempestus squad w/ 2 hot-shot volley and 1 bolt pistol

Supreme Command Detachment:
Tempestor Prime (power sword, plasma pistol)
Primaris Psyker (nightshroud, smite)
Primaris Psyker (psychic maelstrom, smite)


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 05:58:51


Post by: ph34r


Unfortunately, having a Tempestor Prime in one detachment doesn't let you take a Command Squad in the other.

It's an interesting list, kind of all over the place in terms of short and long range, mostly short ranged? Have you been playing with this list so far?

Today I came up with what I believe will by my TAC 2000p:

++99th Noctis++
++Mars Battalion++
250 Cawl
52 Enginseer
45 5 vanguard
40 5 rangers
40 5 rangers
660 6 kastelan robots
140 neutron onager
140 neutron onager

++Elysian Vanguard++
41 Elysian commander, bolter
41 Elysian commander, bolter
56 Elysian command squad, 4 plasma
56 Elysian command squad, 4 plasma
51 Elysian special weapon squad, 3 plasma
51 Elysian special weapon squad, 3 plasma
70 Eversor

++Cadian Spearhead++
30 Cadian commander, relic, warlord
24 Cadian heavy bolter tarantula
24 Cadian heavy bolter tarantula
91 Cadian earthshaker carriage, 4 crew
91 Cadian earthshaker carriage, 4 crew

8 command points, recycles command points 5+ when you or opponent use one. 7 points remaining. Any glaring weaknesses? I have tested a similar list to great effect, but have not tried the new Imperial Guard and Elysians in place of Tempestus Scions yet.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 06:06:39


Post by: Fafnir


My only problem with Ballistari is that I look at them and then remember that Dunecrawlers are a thing. Dragoons are great at what they do. Dunecrawlers are great at what they do. Ballistari are solid. But Admech's options are so limited that they can't really afford to run solid units most of the time.

A Ballistari might be worth considering with the last 75-95 points you've got going for you if you can't fit another crawler. But otherwise, I wouldn't bother.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 06:13:07


Post by: LexOdin9


 ph34r wrote:
Unfortunately, having a Tempestor Prime in one detachment doesn't let you take a Command Squad in the other.

It's an interesting list, kind of all over the place in terms of short and long range, mostly short ranged? Have you been playing with this list so far?

Today I came up with what I believe will by my TAC 2000p:

...


IMO don't split your kastelans, you want to activate WoM on a big Kastelan squad...

Thanks for telling me about the Tempestor Prime, I'll have to figure out how I'll change things... I think I'll cut the primaris psykers and move the Tempestor back to the Vanguard Detachment.

I don't like the Eversor, that's only because I've never been in a situation where he would be of use. I'd rather take out the horde than take out the dude that keeps their leadership high, though.

Have you considered Wyverns over the Earthshakers? Try some math out and see which one is best for the task you want to accomplish.

I'm going to playtest my list out this upcoming weekend. I can post results for the data collection. The Omnissiah wills it!


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 06:21:56


Post by: ph34r


Wyvern, I had not considered yet. That's a unit that came out while I wasn't playing 40k, I'll give it a look.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 07:47:43


Post by: SilverAlien


So, I decided to really try playing to our strengths and doing something differently. I not only dropped Cawl and mars, going full Stygies, I dropped my kastalens. Interestingly enough, I found my list actually felt stronger for it, and hell of a lot more fun. Some observations:

Dragoons and infiltrators complement each other in a number of ways. The one I found particularly nice is deepstriking my infiltrators near an enemy my dragoons are in range to charge, having the infiltrators shoot, then letting the dragoons charge to tie them up and avoid a counter attack/overwatch. This is also one of the situations where I can get my infiltrators close enough for a guaranteed charge the next turn, while still keeping them 12" away from any model that could shoot at them, meaning the Stygies trait kicks in.

You could probably pull the same strategy off with Lucius shooty priests, protecting them the turn they drop in to hopefully get a second round of shooting and maybe melee. Wouldn't be an awful usage of them, and if you drop Cawl and the Kastalens like I did you list opens up a lot in terms of options.

Infiltrators also absolutely butcher light infantry point for point. I forgot how badly they outperform Kastalens for cost when you can actually get them into the fray. Really cost effective, and the dragoon delivery method solves a lot of issues I had with them in practice.

I used a tech priest to cart around the omniscient mask, mostly because I found it was fun trying to keep him in range relic and healing range of my dragoons and infiltrators. What I found interesting is that, if you stick a character out in the open with a relic, people will target him. Which probably doesn't sound like a good idea, but he was 52 points for the model and a cp for the relic, if my opponent wants to spend three lascannon shots killing him I'd say that's a fair trade. I might try this with some datasmiths in the future. People are so conditioned to protect/target characters right now.

Our army is absurdly tough, particularly if we have CP to burn. Our tanks can ignore mortal wounds and get healed for 7 damage a round with stratagems+relics, or just ignore what battle damage we take. Combine that with a 2+ save on our dunecrawlers and 3+ on almost everything else the first two turns (the cover canticle+ Recycle stratagem), and Stygies reducing incoming fire, and we can really shut down/negate alpha strikes of every variety. I think it will be particularly helpful post IG codex. Five russes with battle cannon and lascannon would struggle to take out a single onager, and if they don't manage it it'll be on at least it's second tier of wounds by the time our repair crew is done. I really enjoy not having to play the alpha strike game myself. It's refreshing.

Spoiler:
++Stygies Brigad++
Dominus (with the healing WT and relic)
2 tech priests (one with mask)
6x5 rangers
3x5 infiltrators
4x2 dragoons
4 onagers with neutron laser


I did also consider dropping a a few things to help make room for my crusader. The extra dragoons, onager, or maybe a set of infiltrators replaced by a datasmith for a laugh.





Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 08:39:23


Post by: Wulfey


Elysians are such BS. I ordered some bolt action minis that I will convert into elysian style models. Their rules are just a joke. Everything about them scream "FAQ ME". But whatevs. If I am driving to the socal open then I am going to use elysians unless the rules are killed.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 09:12:33


Post by: Silentz


Wulfey wrote:
Elysians are such BS. I ordered some bolt action minis that I will convert into elysian style models. Their rules are just a joke. Everything about them scream "FAQ ME". But whatevs. If I am driving to the socal open then I am going to use elysians unless the rules are killed.

These are the Forge World units that need a FW FAQ to bring them in line with Astra Militarum? Raised points for plasma etc?

I have never supported the banning of Forge World models from competitive play, but there is a rift opening up between the speed GW are able to "patch" their products by releasing Codexes and FAQs... and Forge World's ability to keep pace with that.

From the outside it seems trivial for Forge World to put out a PDF simultaneously with each GW release, addressing some of the core changes... but I guess they are really struggling to keep up.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 13:52:56


Post by: Verviedi


Let's hope the reason that they're struggling to keep up is because they're devoting so many resources to Fires of Cyraxus.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 14:09:01


Post by: Kandela


 Verviedi wrote:
Let's hope the reason that they're struggling to keep up is because they're devoting so many resources to Fires of Cyraxus.

Adeptus Mechanicus and devoting resources
Anyways, how do you guys think FoC will help? What units do you really think would make a difference?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 14:23:00


Post by: Spera


 Kandela wrote:
 Verviedi wrote:
Let's hope the reason that they're struggling to keep up is because they're devoting so many resources to Fires of Cyraxus.

Adeptus Mechanicus and devoting resources
Anyways, how do you guys think FoC will help? What units do you really think would make a difference?



via Imgflip Meme Generator


We have to get something better for screening. Death guard level of durability, since models in 30k aren't horde stylish, so i don't expect cannon fodder. Other than that we need thrallax to be able to compete with leman russes, with are crazy god now. Also hq that isn't healbot would be nice to mitigate hq tax and give options.

So to sum it up, I don't have high hopes even with FIRES OF CYRAXUS.
(this book is meme right now xD)


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 16:00:11


Post by: Verviedi


The book was meme long before this. I may or may not have been threatened with death over talking about it too much.

And several people are convinced I want to that book, as well. I don’t, I’m just VERY PASSIONATE about it releasing.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 16:03:30


Post by: Jackal444


As a heads-up to anyone going to the SoCal open, the Elysian plamsa will most likely be D2 like it was at BAO. Points wise though, it's probably not going to change unless FW does something. Elysians are pretty cheap points-wise


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 16:17:51


Post by: kinetoscopic


SilverAlien wrote:
So, I decided to really try playing to our strengths and doing something differently. I not only dropped Cawl and mars, going full Stygies, I dropped my kastalens. Interestingly enough, I found my list actually felt stronger for it, and hell of a lot more fun. Some observations:

Dragoons and infiltrators complement each other in a number of ways. The one I found particularly nice is deepstriking my infiltrators near an enemy my dragoons are in range to charge, having the infiltrators shoot, then letting the dragoons charge to tie them up and avoid a counter attack/overwatch. This is also one of the situations where I can get my infiltrators close enough for a guaranteed charge the next turn, while still keeping them 12" away from any model that could shoot at them, meaning the Stygies trait kicks in.

You could probably pull the same strategy off with Lucius shooty priests, protecting them the turn they drop in to hopefully get a second round of shooting and maybe melee. Wouldn't be an awful usage of them, and if you drop Cawl and the Kastalens like I did you list opens up a lot in terms of options.

Infiltrators also absolutely butcher light infantry point for point. I forgot how badly they outperform Kastalens for cost when you can actually get them into the fray. Really cost effective, and the dragoon delivery method solves a lot of issues I had with them in practice.

I used a tech priest to cart around the omniscient mask, mostly because I found it was fun trying to keep him in range relic and healing range of my dragoons and infiltrators. What I found interesting is that, if you stick a character out in the open with a relic, people will target him. Which probably doesn't sound like a good idea, but he was 52 points for the model and a cp for the relic, if my opponent wants to spend three lascannon shots killing him I'd say that's a fair trade. I might try this with some datasmiths in the future. People are so conditioned to protect/target characters right now.

Our army is absurdly tough, particularly if we have CP to burn. Our tanks can ignore mortal wounds and get healed for 7 damage a round with stratagems+relics, or just ignore what battle damage we take. Combine that with a 2+ save on our dunecrawlers and 3+ on almost everything else the first two turns (the cover canticle+ Recycle stratagem), and Stygies reducing incoming fire, and we can really shut down/negate alpha strikes of every variety. I think it will be particularly helpful post IG codex. Five russes with battle cannon and lascannon would struggle to take out a single onager, and if they don't manage it it'll be on at least it's second tier of wounds by the time our repair crew is done. I really enjoy not having to play the alpha strike game myself. It's refreshing.

Spoiler:
++Stygies Brigad++
Dominus (with the healing WT and relic)
2 tech priests (one with mask)
6x5 rangers
3x5 infiltrators
4x2 dragoons
4 onagers with neutron laser


I did also consider dropping a a few things to help make room for my crusader. The extra dragoons, onager, or maybe a set of infiltrators replaced by a datasmith for a laugh.





This was something I heard echoed by one of the 40K podcasts I've been listening to (I want to say it was Forge the Narrative). Basically, that the Codex made Ad Mech a very durable, defensive army.

Thanks for posting the list and your experiences. I was experimenting last night with a Stygies/Lucius list on paper and came up with (for the point cost of a knight) a unit of 4 punchy kastellans with combusters, deep striking into a gun line to unload 4D6 flamer S5 -1 1dmg flamer hits and 24 of their S10 attacks per turn after switching into punch-mode.

Hands down, the knight outshone the Kastellans in the shooting phase, but in combat the 4 pairs of fists vs. a Reaper Chainsword and feet came down to approx. 6 1/2 damage 3 hits going through on a T8, 3+sv target from the Kastellans vs. 1.5 6 damage sword wounding hits and around 1 2 damage foot stomp (the numbers are from memory; I'll have to look at the exacts again after work).


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 16:34:18


Post by: Octovol


Is FoC specifically a forgeworld 30k to 40k book? I mean there's loads of 30k stuff they could port, but Tau werent even around in the heresy days so everything they get would be totally new. I know there's a whole bunch of 30k models without 40k rules that makes it a much cheaper and efficient means of adding new models to our army. The thing is, the 30k stuff is ALL essentially cult mech, it's virtually all automatons which are largely frowned upon 'these days'.

I'd expect us to get a thallax-like option, just because our 'tank' options are currently the most limited of our offering. Hell i'd accept a weapon upgrade kit for Kastelans. It would be nice for us to have our own properly heavy weapon option, dunecrawlers have a single proper heavy weapon and an icarus array. They're essentially medium tanks. A much bigger heavier dunecrawler would be awesome, like a six-legged heavy walker akin to those in ghost in the shell or something but with lots of weapon options. because really the eradication beamer needs to be 2d6 shots at range to make it worth taking and the twin heavy phosphor option is a waste of space on dunecrawlers. It'sd be nice to get some heavy volkite guns or darkfire etc, the 30k gun technologies brought up to date.

I dont really want more screening options specifically. Thats a want borne from the current meta and not necessarily what I feel the army is all about. I'd prefer to have more options to remove or tie up threats before they get to us. I dont want my army to become a copy of another with a different skin. Again 30k has potential options for this. Be nice if we got vorax with a bunch of spammy weak attacks, like a squad of 20 with 3-4 attacks and some charging shenanegans. Much rather have the option to take the fight to my opponents spam than wait for it to come and try and fight spam with spam (that we dont have)


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 16:47:32


Post by: Buddingsquaw


Octovol wrote:
Is FoC specifically a forgeworld 30k to 40k book? I mean there's loads of 30k stuff they could port, but Tau werent even around in the heresy days so everything they get would be totally new. I know there's a whole bunch of 30k models without 40k rules that makes it a much cheaper and efficient means of adding new models to our army. The thing is, the 30k stuff is ALL essentially cult mech, it's virtually all automatons which are largely frowned upon 'these days'.

-snip


It's a campaign book based around Tau invading a forge world (in the 41st millenium), with the AdMech forces basically having a rummage around in the basement and finding a load of cool toys to shoot back with.
The Imperial Armour books are there to port compatible rules for Forgeworld's stuff to the same game everyone else is playing.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 17:15:24


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Wulfey wrote:
Elysians are such BS. I ordered some bolt action minis that I will convert into elysian style models. Their rules are just a joke. Everything about them scream "FAQ ME". But whatevs. If I am driving to the socal open then I am going to use elysians unless the rules are killed.

The issue is that FW was rushed to get their stuff done for 8th, and overall keeping them in line with Guard prices. If Guard were more fairly priced in the first place, Elysians would've been too to an extent. Scions get cooler rules about landing an additional shot on a 6 to hit though when in their own detachment so...


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 17:34:26


Post by: WrentheFaceless


 Kandela wrote:
 Verviedi wrote:
Let's hope the reason that they're struggling to keep up is because they're devoting so many resources to Fires of Cyraxus.

Adeptus Mechanicus and devoting resources
Anyways, how do you guys think FoC will help? What units do you really think would make a difference?


We'll have horribly balanced FW toys too? And transports?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 17:57:20


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


 Kandela wrote:
 Verviedi wrote:
Let's hope the reason that they're struggling to keep up is because they're devoting so many resources to Fires of Cyraxus.

Adeptus Mechanicus and devoting resources
Anyways, how do you guys think FoC will help? What units do you really think would make a difference?


Triaros. Tech-Thralls (if we get them). Additional HQs and a new FW with its own traits and whatnot.

Thanatar might be good to, to help increase our abundance of high toughness models.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 19:03:25


Post by: Wulfey


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
Elysians are such BS. I ordered some bolt action minis that I will convert into elysian style models. Their rules are just a joke. Everything about them scream "FAQ ME". But whatevs. If I am driving to the socal open then I am going to use elysians unless the rules are killed.

The issue is that FW was rushed to get their stuff done for 8th, and overall keeping them in line with Guard prices. If Guard were more fairly priced in the first place, Elysians would've been too to an extent. Scions get cooler rules about landing an additional shot on a 6 to hit though when in their own detachment so...


Say I have two models on my hobby table. (1) is a proper looking Scion with a converted admeched plasma gun [24 points] and (2) a sloppily kitbashed Elysian with my unusable but magnetized and well painted secutarii flechette blaster as plasma gun [14 points]. Why do I bring the 24 point model to a 2 day, 6 game tournament when I could bring the 14 point model? Contrast these two support battalions for my Cawl/Dakkastar. (2) feels decisively stronger. Assume my goal is to provide the best possible screen and deep strike to protect my Cawl/Dakkastar. EDIT: I am assuming Elysian plasma rifles are also damage 2 on overcharge.

(1) guard spam battalion [40 screen, 10 plasma rifles, 1 plasPistol, 505 points, conscripts get regiment bonus and scions get their reroll wound order]
Spoiler:

Prime 40 0
Prime 40 0
Scion Command 36 60
Scion Command 36 60
Scion Troop 45 30 5 2
Conscripts 60
Conscripts 60
Commisar 30 1


(2) elysian rules abuse battalion [60 screen, 14 plasma rifles, 505 points, no regiment bonus for conscripts]
Spoiler:

ElyOfficer 40 0
ElyOfficer 40 0
Conscripts 60 0
Conscripts 60 0
Conscripts 60 0
Ely Comsquad 28 28
Ely Comsquad 28 28
Commisar 30 1
ElyWeaponSquad 30 21
ElyWeaponSquad 30 21


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 19:38:31


Post by: Buddingsquaw


 Kandela wrote:
 Verviedi wrote:
Let's hope the reason that they're struggling to keep up is because they're devoting so many resources to Fires of Cyraxus.

Adeptus Mechanicus and devoting resources
Anyways, how do you guys think FoC will help? What units do you really think would make a difference?


The core Jetpack units: Thallax, Arlatax, and Rocketeer magi.
My goodness can you have fun with an eniterly 12" movement Taghmata army. Nice to have a working flipside to the usual slow plodding of the rest of the stuff.
Likewise, it'd be nice to have proper rapid-response units with them, and tough ones at that.

But what'd really do it for me? Macrocarid Explorators.
For I have 4 of them.

I always included at least one with an on-board repair crew. Nothing quite like the can of worms that is somehow cracking one of those open. All those S8 spanners...
The epitamy of a boulder on the board. Takes our current repair shenanigans to the max, if they're insane enough to allow repairs to be done from the inside.
I suppose the only thing that'd actually compete with that for staying power would be some Necron malarkey, although that is their shtick.

Not sure sure we actually need as tough a nut as Macrocarids, but something about their reliability sees me imagining the resultant increased effectiveness of, most particularly, our elites (Stickarians), save them falling under a stiff breeze.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 20:06:31


Post by: LexOdin9


Oh, the glory that would be a 10 man Rusty squad pouring out of a transport for 8" movement + a charge.

I also really would like to employ a Thallax squad, an Ursarax squad, and a Thanatar into my lists.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 21:51:29


Post by: Iago40k


So lets face it most of our dogmas are not that great. For the sake of being the utmost effective, would it be a good idea to mix forgeworlds within a detachment?I mean mars basically sucks, we want wrath of mars. Ryza blows but the plasma stratagem is neat as it is with graia and their anti psi stratagem or agrapinaa with bringing back servitors. Same might work for wl traits and relics. Thoughts?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 22:29:40


Post by: SilverAlien


Iago40k wrote:
So lets face it most of our dogmas are not that great. For the sake of being the utmost effective, would it be a good idea to mix forgeworlds within a detachment?I mean mars basically sucks, we want wrath of mars. Ryza blows but the plasma stratagem is neat as it is with graia and their anti psi stratagem or agrapinaa with bringing back servitors. Same might work for wl traits and relics. Thoughts?


Interesting idea. Truthfully the only thing I see that's really useful is running Cawl, his Kastalens, and a bundle of Lucius electro priests in a single detachment. Mars isn't that great tbh, particularly not when rerolling ones is redundant and you can use the cover canticle on the first two turns anyways. Lucius is literally useless for the electropriests so that's no loss. It'll make whatever you use to fill the rest of the detachment weaker, but not by much.

I guess you could have a dominus with the Ryza warlord trait on the axe and grab the psuedogenetor, if you were wanting a beatstick HQ to run around hitting stuff. Not as good as Cawl at it though.

 kinetoscopic wrote:
This was something I heard echoed by one of the 40K podcasts I've been listening to (I want to say it was Forge the Narrative). Basically, that the Codex made Ad Mech a very durable, defensive army.


Yeah, it's a little odd because we aren't quite the same sort of defensive as a lot of other armies. At least, my version isn't, it relies on dragoons and infiltrators to counter assault and slow down enemies more than just having bodies on the field.

Octovol wrote:
I dont really want more screening options specifically. Thats a want borne from the current meta and not necessarily what I feel the army is all about. I'd prefer to have more options to remove or tie up threats before they get to us. I dont want my army to become a copy of another with a different skin. Again 30k has potential options for this. Be nice if we got vorax with a bunch of spammy weak attacks, like a squad of 20 with 3-4 attacks and some charging shenanegans. Much rather have the option to take the fight to my opponents spam than wait for it to come and try and fight spam with spam (that we dont have)


Wow don't be mean to my tech thralls they are good boys who just want to be spacemen.

In all seriousness, I'm not sure how we avoid making our army more diverse without leeching concepts off others. One of our most unique traits is our lack of transports for example, and everyone seems eager to be rid of that. I like the focus on more mobile infantry and walkers rather than using transports constantly myself. But we will likely get a little bit of everything when forge works brings it out.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 23:30:21


Post by: interviglium


I'm really wanting:
Thallax, for mobile heavy infantry,
Krios, for more than one tank option
Macroarid, because its an awesome looking transport
30k Magos with customisation (picking biologis, lacrimosa etc
Thanatar, for big beep boops
Myrmidons, because GW are too afraid to make Kataphrons orthwhile


But at this point I assume that FoC is like Half Life 3 and plastic sisters - everytime someone mentions it, it gets delayed another month. Current delivery date is somewhere around Feb 2113 I'd say.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 23:32:45


Post by: Suzuteo


 kinetoscopic wrote:

This was something I heard echoed by one of the 40K podcasts I've been listening to (I want to say it was Forge the Narrative). Basically, that the Codex made Ad Mech a very durable, defensive army.

Thanks for posting the list and your experiences. I was experimenting last night with a Stygies/Lucius list on paper and came up with (for the point cost of a knight) a unit of 4 punchy kastellans with combusters, deep striking into a gun line to unload 4D6 flamer S5 -1 1dmg flamer hits and 24 of their S10 attacks per turn after switching into punch-mode.

Hands down, the knight outshone the Kastellans in the shooting phase, but in combat the 4 pairs of fists vs. a Reaper Chainsword and feet came down to approx. 6 1/2 damage 3 hits going through on a T8, 3+sv target from the Kastellans vs. 1.5 6 damage sword wounding hits and around 1 2 damage foot stomp (the numbers are from memory; I'll have to look at the exacts again after work).

I mentioned this a few pages back. We're no longer the best shooting army, but we're definitely the most durable one. I can see pure Stygies replacing Mars+Stygies in the future. (Rushing Kastelans in and rooting them would be suicidal against a tank army.)

I almost never recommend using a Chainsword. The only Knight where I would even consider it is the Knight Errant, and that is because Gauntlet and TC occupy the exact same space. The Chainsword gives up a bit of anti-tank for better use against high wound, low toughness targets like Tau Commanders.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 23:44:08


Post by: Spera


SilverAlien wrote:


In all seriousness, I'm not sure how we avoid making our army more diverse without leeching concepts off others. One of our most unique traits is our lack of transports for example, and everyone seems eager to be rid of that. I like the focus on more mobile infantry and walkers rather than using transports constantly myself. But we will likely get a little bit of everything when forge works brings it out.


So does Tyrannids. But they have other means of deliver thing through battlefield. It's not about taking things from other list, but giving us options to build TAC list and have synergy in our army. Fulgurites without means of delivery are just trash. it would be good if every army had one option that it is best at, but is almost necessary for every one to have wide spectrum of tools. They should wary in quality, but should be there nonetheless.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 23:46:47


Post by: Wulfey


I really don't like knights in AM lists. Knights just make an easy to counter lascannon target. The melee ones are the worst and have almost no chance to get back their points. The Dsword and Dfist are always, ALWAYS less damage over all than a gun arm. The titanic feet are superior against every T7 target compared to the melee arms. THe melee arms are only decent against T8 models who are awful in melee (land raiders).

Contrast a 585 point full up crusader (the best knight equip) versus 4 onagers (580 points). Sure, the knight is better in combat, but the onagers bring twice as many wounds and substantially better firepower. And you can heal the onagers easier. And the onagers don't need a command point every turn to stay useful (rotate ion shields and the ignore damage one). If the Onagers are MARS, then they have much better accuracy than the knight thanks to cawl. If the Onagers are STYGIES, then they are dramatically tougher thanks to the -1 to hit.

EDIT: watch this knight paladin in this video. Imagine if he had 3 onagers instead of that paladin. Or more robots. Or way, way more dragoons. Or hell, even some ballistari.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXWl6Zb_Rr8&t=2s


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/04 23:54:37


Post by: Suzuteo


As I stated in my write-up, bringing a lone Knight to your army is a waste. You have to build your list around Knights to make it work at all.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 00:02:44


Post by: Spera


Yup, even Prophyrion doesn't match onagers per point value. One knight/baneblade isn't enough redundancy to work. They will destroy you before you could destroy everything that could really hurt him


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 00:57:30


Post by: Wulfey


I have been going over that Forgeworld Eylsian codex again. I am thinking that I am not going to bring conscripts now. Hear me out.

Conscripts: 60 points for 20 wounds that hit on a 5+ with LD4
3x Elysian sniper teams: 63 points for 18 wounds that hit on a 3+, can deep strike, and have 9 sniper rifles.

Why am I bringing conscripts? If I scratch build out of Elysian snipers, those things can be just as beefy but more morale and overkill proof of screen. Or they can deepstrike. And they can always take orders. and NINE SNIPER RIFLES WTF

This is my current thinking:

Cawl Mars Battalion - 6 bots, 2 dragoons, 20 ranger/vanguard
Elysian vanguard - 2 commanders, 2 plasma teams, 3 sniper teams
Elysian vanguard - 1 commander, 1 plasma team, 4 sniper teams

When I need a fat screen, I put the snipers on the table. When screens don't matter, I can hit any character in the game with deep striking snipers. Check the pdf out. ELysian snipers are 5 points a model, but each model has 2 wounds!


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 01:01:07


Post by: Suzuteo


I don't have my codex on hand, but that sounds funny. Aren't Elysian sniper teams two models paired on the same base or something?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 01:03:07


Post by: Wulfey


Suzuteo wrote:
I don't have my codex on hand, but that sounds funny. Aren't Elysian sniper teams two models paired on the same base or something?


Yeah. They are just like a heavy weapons team from standard guard. 2 guys on a base. One spotter, one with rifle.

Heavy weapons squard from AM has 3 models, 4 points per model. Does that mean:

(1) 3x4 models for 12 points base (not that each 'model' in the entry has 2 wounds) [EDIT: I am super sure it is this one. The entry says 3 Heavy Weapon Teams and the points list has 4 points per model, Elysian entry says "3 Elysian Sniper Teams" which each have 2W]
(2) 3x2x4 models for 24 points base [EDIT: so the whole unit would have 6 models even though it has 3 Heavy/Sniper Weapon Teams]


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 02:00:33


Post by: LexOdin9


When did we become Codex: Imperial Soup


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 02:17:47


Post by: SilverAlien


LexOdin9 wrote:
When did we become Codex: Imperial Soup


We have 16 units, maybe half of which are useable, plus Cawl and the Knights, one unit of deepstrikers and no transports, no flyers, one actual "tank", and a clearly rushed codex that did not address many issues with the index version. Plus no support from forgeworld as of yet, the general solution for this suffering from gak codex syndrome.

I'm not saying you have to use imperial soup, but you probably should at least have an imperial soup list ready, in case you run up against a particularly strong army.

Edit: Dakkabot, gak does not start with an s, ruining the semi alliteration. I am disappointed in your attempt to stifle my humor.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 02:25:29


Post by: Wulfey


I think the admech codex has crippling weaknesses that infiltrators can't solve. We need to spend CP to deal damage to big things with invulnerable saves (Magnus, Morty, big daemons, etc.) yet we have a deeply inefficient codex for filling out command points. If you want to be able to deep strike / infiltrate, then you have to bleed a whole lot of CPs that you can't really spare. And the whole codex is at the mercy of the psychic phase. We have 1/2 decently fast units in the dragoons and ironstriders, but they are almost always suicide units when you push them forwards. And we have no units that shoot out of line of sight. And the codex doesn't provide an efficient screening unit that you can afford to lose in droves.**

EDIT: more complaining. Many of our unit entries are non-viable in a competitive setting. The Dominus is a point hog that shoots and fights poorly, but manages to bring an aura as good as a 95 point space marine captain. The rustalkers are a joke that die to the weakest of fire and cost 10 points a wound (a 90 point dakka-taurox kills 60 points of rustalkers a turn). Despite everyone talking up the electropriests, they still die to basic bolter fire in droves. Electropriests in either staff or shock are limited to certain niche gimp plays where they get a really lucky turn 1 Stygies infiltrate or as counter charges against an elite model melee army (our easiest opponent). Fist robots are a farce. No one runs them because if they get in combat with a whole bunch of 1 wound models, then they never leave that combat since they have 6 attacks a piece at best that hit on 4s with no rerolls. Even further, the first robots are terrible against elite model melee guys (think vanguard, plaguemarines) who have hi str hi rend weapons since the robots don't get their invul in combat.

All this adds up to needing to use soup in order to compete in progressive objective missions. I still run 1400-1500 points of admech. But that last 500 points needs to shore up the weaknesses of the codex when I am in a competitive setting.

EDIT:** stygies rangers are almost a good screen. 8 points for a 4+ wound at -1 to hit from shooting. The problem is the HQ tax needed to bring them along with a MARS dakka line. Once you factor in the taxes, those rangers start costing 11 points a wound and they can't deepstrike. Elysian sniper teams are 3.5 points a wound and they can deep strike, and their HQ isn't a pure tax because he can buff the snipers.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 04:07:11


Post by: Suzuteo


Just a reminder: Dominuses can heal themselves and others. That is why he is more expensive than a SM Captain.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 05:14:22


Post by: rvd1ofakind


I'm going with this list today. If you have another idea for a shooty priest bomb list, do tell and I may change my mind:

Mars battalion:
Cawl
Enginseer
3x 5 rangers
6 DakKastelans
2 Icarus Onagers

Lucius Battalion:
2 Enginseers
3x 5 vanguard
20 shooty priests
2x 1 dragoon


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 06:30:01


Post by: Iago40k


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I'm going with this list today. If you have another idea for a shooty priest bomb list, do tell and I may change my mind:

Mars battalion:
Cawl
Enginseer
3x 5 rangers
6 DakKastelans
2 Icarus Onagers

Lucius Battalion:
2 Enginseers
3x 5 vanguard
20 shooty priests
2x 1 dragoon


Sounds nice. looking forward to hear what happens. I tested some Plasma destroyers yesterday in hope that our new stratagems might help them...well they dont. I am going the Goondozer route instead of shooty priests but I like that you dont turn our army into another soup detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wulfey wrote:

EDIT:** stygies rangers are almost a good screen. 8 points for a 4+ wound at -1 to hit from shooting. The problem is the HQ tax needed to bring them along with a MARS dakka line. Once you factor in the taxes, those rangers start costing 11 points a wound and they can't deepstrike. Elysian sniper teams are 3.5 points a wound and they can deep strike, and their HQ isn't a pure tax because he can buff the snipers.

So with that math infiltrators would be almost as good as a screening unit as rangers with 12 pts a wound? Even better, Onager with Eradication Ray or Heavy Phosphor Blaster thats 10,1 pts a wound with t7 3+ 5++. I mean I see what you did there but honestly we dont have "pure" screening units. Rangers can serve as that yes but the problem is there is nothing else to do for them besides screening cause their loadout (and almonst everything else) sucks. So I believe we have to think about a way that we get units in our list that serve a specific battle field role AND are able to screen if needed. Not the other way around. Like Dragoons.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 07:16:44


Post by: SilverAlien


So, I'm thinking of making a few changes, and I'm curious what people think. Mainly to address the issue of not having any mortal wounds or counter psyker abilities in my all Stygies list.

1. I may swap out a untnif infiltrators for rust stalkers. They are dirt cheap at just 100 points for five 2 w models. The staff priests seem too fragile by comparison. Also I don't want to buy any.

2. Including a small vanguard or supreme HQ detachment, with greyfax and a callidus assassin, plus two more choices, possibly primaris psykers to be able to smite.

I actually really like the addition of Greyfax and the callidus. Greyfax means I have a block of infantry that are immune to morale issues and the callidus can make an enemy burn through cp extra fast on their first turn, in addition to both of their anti psyker/invulnerable save abilities. I'm just not sure what else to include to fill out the last two slots, that won't eat into my budget or feel really niche.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 07:29:07


Post by: Wulfey


I do believe dragoons are a critical part of any bigger screen. If I had more money and modeling time, I could see just running 6 of them in units of 3. They are more of an offense screen to go out and tie up melee units far away from static units. And yes, point for point, dragoons are quite tough. 68 points gets you 6 T6 wounds with a base -1 against shooting.

EDIT: I have run greyfax several times. Always a great add because she has a native +1 to deny twice, and critically she gets that bonus at full deny range instead of just 12" like a psychic hood. The trouble is that she is bad in combat and way squishier than you might hope.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 10:02:45


Post by: Yoda79


Even if you take 500 points guard gw atm is trying with all guns blazing all videos every single one spamming codex is good and has value. We gotta cry they need to sell priests already Robots sold out once etc. They know exactly what they are doing and I'm not gonna follow this crap. They gave here and there and spamming it daily. Where the truth is we missing so many things and atm we lost even the last reason to have adeptus mechanicus in our lists. Onagers.

Since guard got better with codex that gives order regiments and not stupid dogmas we can't even use enginseers to heal. No hq are tax onabers we can get better. Bla bla

No tansport makes our troops bad. Really bad. Cause ok we are not guard lvl on troops but our elite troops can't move. The mobility par of spending cp s is so bad. I m trying to believe Robots it's a trap. Spending all your cp s there for a super static gunline nerfed in all aspects buffed only if spend 2 cp and take a 4+ unit.

Can't do nothing. Chaos pshyck heavy will mortal you to death since static. Melee Chao will carve their banner in your face.
Atm most likely guard will outshoot you since they got the bodied to hold and better tanks. Orcs will pass through in melee round one. Bla bla bla. H flier armies will kite you till you break your nerves etc.

Still we win cause most armies trying to figure out their play games or got no codex. But as I see more games tours etc. That static gun line has no future.
As for heavy Los terrain yes it will be default and the only one atm it's gonna break is us. That stationary robot our only real mortl threat vs serious lists will do nothing soon enough. There will be none not aware of that trick and only kids will go now die there.
What will you do? Where Robots fail same goes for onagers cause in. Los fight you will have one good shot and onagers is not consistent with that d3. It's can rock but it can also do nothing. It's a big difference guard got to reroll 2d6 and reroll them so in the table 4d6 choose the best. That's extreme and I don't mention other buffs.

So if you get one round first one enemy deploy away from Robots. A second round using Los game over. 3 first rounds are vital and you won't have any other option . You LL just w8 for enemy to go hide take positions or claim obj with fast units while you do what? Can repositions easily don't have good separate units cause we need to make thsm big ones so moving 4+ dragoons won't do it. Even is you drop 20 priests ok they will obliterate enemy screen and ????

Your static gun line will do nothing. While even guard will move hlf speed and double shoot. You can't move cause
A) Cawl. You either move him or stationed him. Can't have both.
B) even if you move him you need to get 9" aura default.
C) meaning you will advance your 48" onagers while you LL keep 36 stationary.
D) Los will make fun of you. Robots are bs4+ no Cawl you LL need to invest 2* tpd and destroyers and gems to go Robots destroyers with gem 3+ tpd reroll and another priest for onagers.
If an enemy has anything like a 3+ invu or a -1 hit tank your done.

And that's basics don't wanna start about using gems for anti deep strike for reroll for inf. For wrath for anything . While when you use gems for basic options others us them for winning.

Even a soup atm must have less ad mech sorry. Competitive means you can play units in various scenarios not investing 1200 points in static guns and average guns. If your enemy just throws small units one at a time you won't even be able to use with effectively and it's 2 cp. So no soup for ad mech sorry .

Adeptus mechanicus is a support detachments most likely a full outrider dragoon. Pay 1 cp for mask and infiltrate hq and big one while keep screeners the small ones.

Tpd or enginseers with mask.
1*4+ dragoons
1*2 dragoons screener or 1*2+ lasc balistarii
1*2 dragoons screener or 1*2 lasc balistarii
+ 1*10+ staff priests.

That's what you got an if playd properly will create havoc. Rest you can find elsewhere.

Robots need either the 5+ return mortal back go to7 wounds or cc invu.

Stationary gunline f joke. We w8 for codex instead of mobility we got stationary Robots f joke


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the other hand if you ditch Robots entirely and play a Cawl onagers offensive you might out maneuver some armies. Some but you LL need icarus with tpd Cawl with neutrons more Than 3+3 and snipers and tons of dragoons. Who ever wants to pay could work. Even so you d still need deep strike bodies for enemy threats or screener we just can't play ad mech competitive. And they won't understand why. No way to make effective list while your options are either broken-v v specific or below average. And so much tax with current detachments. Troops with no transports or hq s with limited effective role if different detachments if you start patrols and aux you won't have more then 6-7 cp so what you try to gain will loose in options its just so stupid.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And since I always try to be constructive.

You got a better chance if you follow the stupid design.

A) a big one detwchment like brigade Mars with big units.
B) two detachments min 2* batt separating roles. Mars stationary stygia moving etc. They won't work together so you need to keep in mind to separate them as much as possible.

I'm still trying to make 1* batt and 2* +1 cp detachments but it's seems not possible. Good luck


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 11:22:43


Post by: PiñaColada


Hey there everyone!

New to these forums since I after a 13 or so year hiatus decided to get back into 40k. Liked the look of Ad mech (Praise the Omnissiah!) so I went wih those. I've included a list that I know isn't really competitive but hopefully you can still give some constructive critisism to it. My friends that play aren't hyper competitive anyways and I wanted to own a broader selection of models, other than just "the good ones". I wanted a different type of army and don't like playing with namned characters so Cawl is out (and therefore basically also Mars) I also really like the look of the Skitarii so Graia seemed to be a good choice for them, added durability and all.

The list is probably somewhat self-explanatory, plenty of Command points and ability to regenerate means I don't have to be frugal with stratagems. The corpuscarii are there as a counter charge unit in close proximity to the warlord (since they get to shoot in close combat then) Also do they get a 5++/5+++/6++++ now because of graia? The destroyers are there beacuse I like the models and some synergy with the Kastellans (also the can shoot thier flamers in Close combat if they're close to the warlord I assume). Also they still get a 6++++ from death by overheating right? Stubbers are there on dunecrawlers because of spare points (should I sub those with a few extra infantry?)

Summary: Yeah I know it isn't going to win any tournaments but are there any things I've overlooked or different takes to the army list I've provided?

Edit: Oh yeah, the group of Infiltrators with swords and stubcarbines are mostly there for situations where you deepstrike 9" away from a tank to charge and tie up (or whatever) but there happens to be a soft target, maybe a mortar team, 15" away...

Spoiler:
Brigade Detachment Graia
HQ:
Warlord Tech Priest Dominus - Monitor Malevolus, Autocaduceus of the Arkhan Land- Volkite, Macro 135pts
Engiseer 52pts
Engiseer 52 pts
Trrops:
1x5 Ranger x2 Arquebus, Omnispex 97 pts
1x5 Ranger x2 Plasma, Data-tether 77pts
1x5 Ranger 40pts
1x5 Ranger 40 pts
1x5 Vanguard x2 Arcrifle, Arc pistol, Arc maul 61 pts
1x3 Kataprhon Destroyers Plasma, Flamers 216 pts
Elites:
1x5 Infiltrators Macro, Taser goads 130 pts
1x5 Infiltrators Stub, Swords 120 pts
1x10 Corpuscarii 140 pts
Fast Attack:
1x1 Dragoon 68 pts
1x1 Dragoon 68 pts
1x3 Dragoon 204 pts
Heavy support:
1x2 Kastellan 6x phosphor 220 pts
1x1 Icarus Dunecrawler, stubber 135 pts
1x1 Neutron Dunecrawler, 2x stubber 145 pts
Total: 2000 pts


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 12:05:37


Post by: Spera


Looks good. Remember that +1 to hit from stratagem prevent you from overheating plasma. And GRAIA save negates model death so ii works with plasma. One more Neutronager may be god since it mitigates random number of shoots a little bit.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 12:42:48


Post by: PiñaColada


Yeah another Neutron Onager would be nice to have, but is it worth trading away a dragoon and 5 of the corpuscarii for? I think that would be the easiest thing to swap out, other than the kataphrons I guess


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 13:06:42


Post by: Octovol


So I came up with a pseudo-viable pure admech brigade (read: lol) something along the lines of:

HQ
Stock TPD
2 * enginseer

Troops
2 * sniper ranger squads
1 * arc ranger squad
3 * arc vanguard squads

Fast attack
2*3 dragoons
1 * 2 las balistarii

Elite
3 * datasmiths (one for each robot )

Heavy
2 * neatronager
1* 3 robots

I mean it's obviously unlikely to be winning any ultra competitive tournaments any time soon, but it's at least usable against most normal armies. There's a lot of tax in there i admit but it's brainstorming gak like this that brings out those tid bits of usefulness for a more serious list.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 13:41:29


Post by: Spera


PiñaColada wrote:
Yeah another Neutron Onager would be nice to have, but is it worth trading away a dragoon and 5 of the corpuscarii for? I think that would be the easiest thing to swap out, other than the kataphrons I guess


Id say check this list first, and if one onager underperform because of RNG adjust list. You can always swap icarus one for neutron.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 13:50:36


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


PiñaColada wrote:
Yeah another Neutron Onager would be nice to have, but is it worth trading away a dragoon and 5 of the corpuscarii for? I think that would be the easiest thing to swap out, other than the kataphrons I guess


Neutronager is very useful - I would dump the Corpuscarii for it in a heartbeat. However, if you aren't going Cawl and going competitive, though, I wouldn't sweat it and just roll with what you have.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 14:17:43


Post by: SilverAlien


Yoda79 wrote:
Atm most likely guard will outshoot you since they got the bodied to hold and better tanks.


I'm going to say this again: head to head we can still outshoot guard. I know Stygies can do it even vs some of the better regiments, and mars can always fall back in Cawl and his buddies to butcher literally anything. So yes, guard still doesn't have the level of firepower we do. Yes 7 shots from a battle cannon and one from a lascannon at BS 4+ does less damage in average than a neutron onager despite costing more. That's how bad russes were. Artillery can be worrying, so be careful if a lot of LoS blocking terrain is on the field.

With guard, be more worried about losing on objectives than losing due to superior firepower.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 14:45:37


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


SilverAlien wrote:

With guard, be more worried about losing on objectives than losing due to superior firepower.


This has been the long-standing concern. They have bodies and firepower. We have to eliminate the former while weathering the latter, which we can do.

I am very curious to see what the new Codex does to the metagame though - I think instead of worrying about the direct impact in IG vs AdMech matches, I am more curious about how other armies respond and what they does to our overall strategies (not that we are flexible enough to change it up much).


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 15:06:20


Post by: PiñaColada


 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
Yeah another Neutron Onager would be nice to have, but is it worth trading away a dragoon and 5 of the corpuscarii for? I think that would be the easiest thing to swap out, other than the kataphrons I guess


Neutronager is very useful - I would dump the Corpuscarii for it in a heartbeat. However, if you aren't going Cawl and going competitive, though, I wouldn't sweat it and just roll with what you have.

So would a slight reshuffling like this make it more viable in your opinion? Even though I'm not all that competitive it's not like I appreciate being tabled by my opponents..

Spoiler:

Brigade Detachment Graia
HQ:
Warlord Tech Priest Dominus - Monitor Malevolus, Autocaduceus of the Arkhan Land- Volkite, Macro 135pts
Engiseer 52pts
Engiseer 52 pts
Trrops:
1x5 Ranger x2 Arquebus, Omnispex 97 pts
1x5 Ranger x2 Plasma, Data-tether 77pts
1x5 Ranger 40pts
1x5 Ranger 40 pts
1x5 Vanguard 45 pts
1x3 Kataprhon Destroyers Plasma, Flamers 216 pts
Elites:
1x5 Infiltrators Macro, Taser goads 130 pts
1x5 Corpuscarii 70 pts
1x5 Corpuscarii 70 pts
Fast Attack:
1x1 Dragoon 68 pts
1x1 Dragoon 68 pts
1x3 Dragoon 204 pts
Heavy support:
1x2 Kastellan 6x phosphor 220 pts
1x1 Icarus Dunecrawler, 130 pts
1x1 Neutron Dunecrawler, 1x stubber 140 pts
1x1 Neutron Dunecrawler, 2x stubber 145 pts
Total: 1999 pts


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 15:29:06


Post by: gendoikari87


Last couple of games I relagated my admech to field support. Got rid of the bots entirely took a tp 3 neutronagers a grand master and 4 10 man strike squads. Simple but effective. Not matched play viable because it relies a lot on gate of infinity. Did put vortex of doom on the grand master though just to test it out. Mehish.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 15:51:11


Post by: Spera


Ok, another entry. Now I'll work on improving Balistari one and clarify everything.

As always comment. And if you think i should add unit fell free to discus me why. I took it from our point of view(no need for Exorcist when we have onagers, id rather take spearhead of ad mech when playing with sisters.)

Spoiler:

Allays, Sisters of Battle

Sisters are awesome addition, since they exell where we lack and vice versa. Their main power is how fast they are. Most pure Adeptus Ministorum list base on that and take it to 11. Ad Acts of faith to mix and enjoy strong army, since the way this mechanic scale, it actually benefits smaller detachments of sisters. Additional movement, shooting, fighting in melee or reviving and healing models for one unit on 2+ on the beginning of your turn. . They all have 6++ on everything, unless unit have even better one, and most units can Denny the witch on one die.

Most notable Units.

Saint Celestine.

Star of army. Flying assassin useful against smaller characters but can go toe to toe with Demon Prince if used correctly. Gives nearby sister units 5+ inv. Rocks S7 ap-3 2D with 6 attacks on 2+ws and flamer 8” Assault d6 S5 ap-1 1D. 2+ and 4++ and ablative wounds in shape of her bodyguards that she can resurrect. 7 wounds, and she can come back with full health on 2+. Beside her T3 she’s total beast roaming up to 24” turn not advancing. 150pts +50 per gemina. And free guaranteed act of faith. Jezz she's under priced.

Cannones.

HQ that can actually fight compared to our TPD, WS/BS 2+ 4A S3 T3 3+/4++ 5W
Can take power weapons(sword, axe and mace) but most importantly Eviscerator Sx2 ap-4 d3D for 22pts, and plethora of ranged weapons. It buffs nearby sisters with reroll 1’s on hit in both shooting and melee.
All of that for 45 in basic version. Sisters are good in HQ game since this is cheap and not even tax.

Basic Sisters.

Statline of our troops with 3+/6++ save and 7\8 LD, two sisters can take either flamer, meltagun or stormbolter, and one of those two can alternatively take heavy equivalents of those weapons. Sister superior can take Power weapons, combi weapons or storm bolter wich is best option. Nice overall for 9pts/model.

Seraphims.

3’rd best unit in army, but only because how well they synergize with moma BIG C. They have stats of normal sisters but jetpack move 12” and ws of 3+. They rock two basic pistols for 11pts/model and you can take two with either 2x handflamer or 2x infernopistol witch is 6” melta. So 4 shots of melta per unit. Superior can take power sword and plasma pistol. They have reroll of their inv save, which when they are within 6” from celestine is 5+. (reminder: 5++ rerollable is better than 4++(55% vs 50%)). Take unit of 10 and send them with their acts of faith double move 24” to the enemy. Charge tanks through enemy models with fly if there is just enough space to land. They are primary target for acts of faith. Double fight, double shooting, double move, even regeneration. They can also DS.

Dominions

2nd best unit in army. Doesn’t look like much, since they have stats of normal sisters. They can take up to 4 flamers, meltaguns or stormbolters. Sister supperior can take equipment like her equivalents in other units. And here comes their vanguard special rule. They can move before start of game like if they had normal movement phase, but have to end more than 9” from enemy. So they can move and advance without penalty. And here is where fast and furious part comes up. They transfer this ability to transport they are in if there are no other units. And here comes two cars they like to ride.

Immolator

Our lamborghini. Capacity of up to 6 models, M12” T7 10W 3+/6++. Can ad hunter-killer missiles and storm bolter. But you take it for Immolator flamer. This bad boy punch on 12” assault 2d6 S5 -1AP 1D. Put dominions behind wheel and it will be in your enemy face on turn 1. And also can deny witch on one die. For 103pts. Delicious.

Reppresor (FW)

For 90 pts naked you have: 12” M 7T 12W 3+/6++ heavy flamer and one storm bolter and dozer ram. You have option for additional storm bolter or one more heavy flamer. Capacity of 10 infantry models and 6 of them can shoot outside thanks to firing points rulle. This is not open topped. You only get -1 penalty for move if you moved, but you can fire if reppresor fallback, advanced or is in combat(but can’t shoot into that combat). Yes, Dominions with meltas are usually what you are looking for this bad boy. Turn 1 5x melta from moving bunker anyone?

Honorable mentions:

Rhino: Rhino with 6++, when you need to get those Arco Flagellants or Repentias to those conscripts
Arco flagellants with Priest: Cheap melee unit that wreck faces. Full combo deals 27d3 attacks in melee. On 3+
Retributors: Heavy weapon specialists. You can take 4 heavy flamers and put them into repressor.

Tactics.
Take them supplementing your vanguards and screening units. Storm bolters on everything. Ultra cheap dakka that will be in rapid fire range. You will mow those hordes. Put units of dominions into Immos and bunker midfield. With good positioning this will be incredible good screen from DS and assault. Send Celestine with Seraphims to rape those psykers and other characters, or prevent artillery from shooting.

Pros
-Mobile
-Good anti horde and anti armour.
-Have one of best force multipliers in game.

Cons
-Models are pricey.
-Don’t have native psykers.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 16:00:13


Post by: gendoikari87


I don't even consider sisters viable until they get a plastic kit or you win the lottery.

Alternatively you could do sisters of silence with converting


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 16:09:49


Post by: Spera


gendoikari87 wrote:
I don't even consider sisters viable until they get a plastic kit or you win the lottery.

Alternatively you could do sisters of silence with converting


Yes, your wallet will cry, but they are good. They are viable for sure, one of best army to mix in. Price of models is real bummer thou. But if you have one that are collecting dust on shelf now is good time to take them of since they haven't been this strong since 3'rd ed. While they lack in flexibility, they are basically one trick pony, they do they one thing really good. So happens that this is area where we lack.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 16:15:14


Post by: gendoikari87


Yeah I also just like the idea of t3 3+ save army. Seems unique. I also like the metal models. But every time I'm on the gw website and look at the sisters I have to go check I'm not looking at nz or aus prices


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 17:47:30


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Played 2 codex games vs Emperor's Children Marines, terminators, cultists.

50PL, auto go first game:
Stygies Patrol
Bunker with quad gun
Enginseer
9 Rangers, 2 sniper (to fit in the bunker)
6 Dragoons
20 Fulgurite Priests
3 cp, 3 drops total (2 fit in bunker)
So I go first, infiltrate dragoons and priests and table the opponent turn one. We decided to go on still, he deepstruck Terminators and they killed themselves due to overcharging plasma against Dragoons.
Felt too gimmicky. On a 6 it fails. And Fulgurites feel overpriced. The 3++ and the exploding mortal wounds are not that great...

2000pts, +1 to go first game:
Mars Battalion:
Cawl
Enginseer(warlord, CP trait)
3x 5 rangers
6 DakKastelans
2 Icarus Onagers

Lucius Battalion:
2x enginseer (1 has the teleporter artifact)
3x 5 vanguard
2 dragoons
20 Shooty Priests

Killed 1000pts+ models turn one. All marines, all artilery were dead. He had only terminators, 4 cultists, a coulple of plaguebearers and characters left. So he conceded turn 1 again. Turns out, Wrath of Mars DakKastelans are preeeetty good, who knew And the shooty priests were underwhelming because you need to take lucius to make them work, pay cp, bla bla. Just take infiltrators... :/

So yeah, EPriests are better than they used to be... but still outclassed by DakKastelans, Onagers, Cawl, Screening Rangers + Dragoons.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 17:57:51


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Turns out, Wrath of Mars DakKastelans are preeeetty good, who knew




Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 18:00:53


Post by: rvd1ofakind


2 games that ended in turn one BTW. Whoops. I feel bad now.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 18:18:28


Post by: SilverAlien


 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

With guard, be more worried about losing on objectives than losing due to superior firepower.


This has been the long-standing concern. They have bodies and firepower. We have to eliminate the former while weathering the latter, which we can do.

I am very curious to see what the new Codex does to the metagame though - I think instead of worrying about the direct impact in IG vs AdMech matches, I am more curious about how other armies respond and what they does to our overall strategies (not that we are flexible enough to change it up much).


High volume low damage low AP anti tank will be more common, so we may see fewer relying on invulnerable saves for one. Good for onagers.

Plasma scions won't be as good, either meaning it just gets less efficient or people look to some long range alternatives. Which could mean people don't spread their bubble wrap quite as wide, or take fewer for that purpose. Same for us, but we can't really exploit this, might make melee+flamer Kastalens better at punching through bubble wrap and consolidating into tanks?

Alternatively, the mordian order and more expensive scions may combine to make mechanized plasma special weapon squads that can also act as deadly short range snipers, meaning even more bubble wrap and people running more redundant characters. Which probably means it is time for our snipers to go sit on a shelf, but frankly I was one of the only ones using them in any sort of large number. Between our onagers and dragoons I don't think we'd be under any real threat ourselves though, and frankly the only HQ we have that really is essential to the workings of any of our builds is Cawl, who is far more durable than the average HQ.



Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 18:24:08


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


SilverAlien wrote:

Plasma scions won't be as good, either meaning it just gets less efficient or people look to some long range alternatives. Which could mean people don't spread their bubble wrap quite as wide, or take fewer for that purpose. Same for us, but we can't really exploit this, might make melee+flamer Kastalens better at punching through bubble wrap and consolidating into tanks?



Fistelans will never be good. Too slow and no invuln in combat.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 18:31:13


Post by: kinetoscopic


 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

Plasma scions won't be as good, either meaning it just gets less efficient or people look to some long range alternatives. Which could mean people don't spread their bubble wrap quite as wide, or take fewer for that purpose. Same for us, but we can't really exploit this, might make melee+flamer Kastalens better at punching through bubble wrap and consolidating into tanks?



Fistelans will never be good. Too slow and no invuln in combat.


4 Lucius Fistellans can deep strike in for 1 CP and get off a round of 4d6 Flamer strikes before attempting the charge. At the end of the charge phase, with another CP you can switch into Double Punch mode and the damage output is something like an average of 6.5 wounding hits going all the way through a 3+ sv T9 or less target for 3 damage each.

I will grant you this may not be top level, tournament tier, crush your opponent's dreams, tell Yoda AdMech is god again, type tech. But it's somewhere between "never good" and that.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 18:41:05


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


 kinetoscopic wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

Plasma scions won't be as good, either meaning it just gets less efficient or people look to some long range alternatives. Which could mean people don't spread their bubble wrap quite as wide, or take fewer for that purpose. Same for us, but we can't really exploit this, might make melee+flamer Kastalens better at punching through bubble wrap and consolidating into tanks?



Fistelans will never be good. Too slow and no invuln in combat.


4 Lucius Fistellans can deep strike in for 1 CP and get off a round of 4d6 Flamer strikes before attempting the charge. At the end of the charge phase, with another CP you can switch into Double Punch mode and the damage output is something like an average of 6.5 wounding hits going all the way through a 3+ sv T9 or less target for 3 damage each.

I will grant you this may not be top level, tournament tier, crush your opponent's dreams, tell Yoda AdMech is god again, type tech. But it's somewhere between "never good" and that.


Fair enough, but without an invuln they are not going to stand up to any dedicated CC units. That is a major issue for a dedicated CC unit to have. Plus, you are throwing in a lot of CP to make them work. They have to make that charge on T1, which is likely not happening. Too many expenditures and variables, which is why I say "never good".


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 18:46:50


Post by: Fafnir


 kinetoscopic wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

Plasma scions won't be as good, either meaning it just gets less efficient or people look to some long range alternatives. Which could mean people don't spread their bubble wrap quite as wide, or take fewer for that purpose. Same for us, but we can't really exploit this, might make melee+flamer Kastalens better at punching through bubble wrap and consolidating into tanks?



Fistelans will never be good. Too slow and no invuln in combat.


4 Lucius Fistellans can deep strike in for 1 CP and get off a round of 4d6 Flamer strikes before attempting the charge. At the end of the charge phase, with another CP you can switch into Double Punch mode and the damage output is something like an average of 6.5 wounding hits going all the way through a 3+ sv T9 or less target for 3 damage each.

I will grant you this may not be top level, tournament tier, crush your opponent's dreams, tell Yoda AdMech is god again, type tech. But it's somewhere between "never good" and that.


Firing the flamers would actually be a really bad thing to do. If your opponent isn't incompetent and takes their casualties from the front, they'll deny your robots the charge, leaving them out in the open and easily crushed.

In practical contexts, fistelans just don't make sense.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 18:53:24


Post by: Wulfey


The fist bots costing more than the shoot bots is just baffling. I think that is the biggest point miss in the codex. GW way overvalued the strength of their attacks and didn't account for their bad WS and limited delivery options.

Second place is for sure sicarians who are pointed into uselessness as well.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 18:56:23


Post by: gendoikari87


 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
 kinetoscopic wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

Plasma scions won't be as good, either meaning it just gets less efficient or people look to some long range alternatives. Which could mean people don't spread their bubble wrap quite as wide, or take fewer for that purpose. Same for us, but we can't really exploit this, might make melee+flamer Kastalens better at punching through bubble wrap and consolidating into tanks?



Fistelans will never be good. Too slow and no invuln in combat.


4 Lucius Fistellans can deep strike in for 1 CP and get off a round of 4d6 Flamer strikes before attempting the charge. At the end of the charge phase, with another CP you can switch into Double Punch mode and the damage output is something like an average of 6.5 wounding hits going all the way through a 3+ sv T9 or less target for 3 damage each.

I will grant you this may not be top level, tournament tier, crush your opponent's dreams, tell Yoda AdMech is god again, type tech. But it's somewhere between "never good" and that.


Fair enough, but without an invuln they are not going to stand up to any dedicated CC units. That is a major issue for a dedicated CC unit to have. Plus, you are throwing in a lot of CP to make them work. They have to make that charge on T1, which is likely not happening. Too many expenditures and variables, which is why I say "never good".
I mean neither do dragoons they just have a 6++ and lower armor save


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 19:00:49


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Which is why you get almost 2 dragoons for 1 Fistelan... Which are faster... And -1 to hit...


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 19:09:54


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


gendoikari87 wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
 kinetoscopic wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

Plasma scions won't be as good, either meaning it just gets less efficient or people look to some long range alternatives. Which could mean people don't spread their bubble wrap quite as wide, or take fewer for that purpose. Same for us, but we can't really exploit this, might make melee+flamer Kastalens better at punching through bubble wrap and consolidating into tanks?



Fistelans will never be good. Too slow and no invuln in combat.


4 Lucius Fistellans can deep strike in for 1 CP and get off a round of 4d6 Flamer strikes before attempting the charge. At the end of the charge phase, with another CP you can switch into Double Punch mode and the damage output is something like an average of 6.5 wounding hits going all the way through a 3+ sv T9 or less target for 3 damage each.

I will grant you this may not be top level, tournament tier, crush your opponent's dreams, tell Yoda AdMech is god again, type tech. But it's somewhere between "never good" and that.


Fair enough, but without an invuln they are not going to stand up to any dedicated CC units. That is a major issue for a dedicated CC unit to have. Plus, you are throwing in a lot of CP to make them work. They have to make that charge on T1, which is likely not happening. Too many expenditures and variables, which is why I say "never good".
I mean neither do dragoons they just have a 6++ and lower armor save


A 6++ is better than nothing. They are also only 68pt each, fast enough to get somewhere, harder to hit (in shooting via cloud), and similarly tough (T6 vs T7). When you slap on Conqueror, they are pretty killy. The highlight is that they are mobile and cheap. A single Fistelan is almost the price of two Dragoons. Also, the Fistelan is competing for room in the list with Heavy slot options, not FA, which we have little competition in.

Just overall, Dragoons are good and Fistelans are bad.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 19:26:46


Post by: gendoikari87


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Which is why you get almost 2 dragoons for 1 Fistelan... Which are faster... And -1 to hit...
more like 1.7 or thereabouts. But still it not really that much more or less durable.

Speed is an issue but the bots are still 8" to the goons 10" (without strategem)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean the goons might be marginally better cc choices but they're not far off in terms of cc durability


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 19:37:14


Post by: Suzuteo


There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 19:38:28


Post by: LexOdin9


Suzuteo wrote:
There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.


You spend 1 CP to switch them to melee mode.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 19:44:53


Post by: Wulfey


The Conqueror strategem and the -1 AP did the following to Dragoon expected damage versus a Rhino T7/3+ profile. This is something like a 250% increase in expected damage.

(3 expected hits after exploding 6+s)
3*0.67*0.33*2
1.3266000000000002

(5.5 expected hits after exploding 4+s)
5.5*0.67*0.5*2
3.685


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 19:46:22


Post by: gendoikari87


Suzuteo wrote:
There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.
against low save infantry maybe but against multi wound models the kastelans have them beat hands down 8 vs 10 wounds for a three strong unit of dragoons and two bots which are about the same cost


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wulfey wrote:
The Conqueror strategem and the -1 AP did the following to Dragoon expected damage versus a Rhino T7/3+ profile. This is something like a 250% increase in expected damage.

(3 expected hits after exploding 6+s)
3*0.67*0.33*2
1.3266000000000002

(5.5 expected hits after exploding 4+s)
5.5*0.67*0.5*2
3.685
i will never count the conqueror protocol in calculations it is an ice gimmick for a single turn but hats it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And even with it it only makes them equal the kastelans against tanks


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 19:57:05


Post by: Verviedi


Yes, it's a nice thing that boosts your damage output massively for a single turn, doing exactly what it's supposed to do, and doing it well. It is perfectly reasonable to include in in calculations if you're able to use Stratagems when they're most needed, instead of wasting them.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 19:58:23


Post by: Suzuteo


LexOdin9 wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.


You spend 1 CP to switch them to melee mode.

I meant doubling the doubled punches. Dragoons are much more point efficient in terms of expected wounds against T6/7 3+ targets. Furthermore, we should remember that Kastelans get double fight, not double attacks. It's a subtle distinction that changes the expected wounds because the opponent gets to fight before you do the second fight.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.
against low save infantry maybe but against multi wound models the kastelans have them beat hands down 8 vs 10 wounds for a three strong unit of dragoons and two bots which are about the same cost

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wulfey wrote:
The Conqueror strategem and the -1 AP did the following to Dragoon expected damage versus a Rhino T7/3+ profile. This is something like a 250% increase in expected damage.

(3 expected hits after exploding 6+s)
3*0.67*0.33*2
1.3266000000000002

(5.5 expected hits after exploding 4+s)
5.5*0.67*0.5*2
3.685
i will never count the conqueror protocol in calculations it is an ice gimmick for a single turn but hats it

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And even with it it only makes them equal the kastelans against tanks

Actually, Dragoons are wasted against infantry. Please please actually try using them before you criticize them? Everyone is blown away by how good these guys are, and you're talking about Fist Kastelans...

It's the most CP efficient gimmick in the codex, and alpha strike is important in this meta.

Fist Kastelans are superior against T8+ tanks. But those tanks kill Kastelans on approach much faster than they would Dragoons. Furthermore, we still do have Neutron Laser, so having the Dragoons stick to multiwound T4-7 makes more sense.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 20:01:00


Post by: kinetoscopic


LexOdin9 wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.


You spend 1 CP to switch them to melee mode.


Yup, the Strategem I was referring to was Binairc Override. If you're being extra cheeky about it I believe you can fire that off at the end of the Charge phase if the charge is successful and go right into Double Punch (aka Conquerer mode) in time for combat. Otherwise, you'd stay in Aegis and, admittedly, take a buttload of hits. Presumably, you have Shroudpsalm up at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote:
LexOdin9 wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.


You spend 1 CP to switch them to melee mode.

I meant doubling the doubled punches. Dragoons are much more point efficient in terms of expected wounds against T6/7 3+ targets. Furthermore, we should remember that Kastelans get double fight, not double attacks. It's a subtle distinction that changes the expected wounds because the opponent gets to fight before you do the second fight.



I actually had to look that up again, but the FAQ confirms that units who charge and fight twice fight both times before their opponent:

A: Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate
unit selected to fight for all purposes.

So, if such a unit charged this turn, it will fight both
times before any units that did not charge.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 20:27:43


Post by: Suzuteo


 kinetoscopic wrote:

I actually had to look that up again, but the FAQ confirms that units who charge and fight twice fight both times before their opponent:

A: Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate
unit selected to fight for all purposes.

So, if such a unit charged this turn, it will fight both
times before any units that did not charge.

Ohhh. I missed that FAQ. Anyhow, they're still not as point efficient--except against tanks.

The idea of an AdMech melee army is amusing though.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 21:07:07


Post by: Wulfey


Nobody should be doubting dragoons. What is making me not run them is that I can't commit the 260 bucks it would take to get another 6 kits of them. 260 bucks and also the kit is fiendish hard to magnetize properly. And painting it is a bitch. And transporting it is a bitch. At its cheapest it is $40 to put 68 points of model on the table. I really think more people would buy into the Suzuteo dragoon strategy if we actually had more dragoon models.

STYGIES screen - 555
Enginseer 52
1x3 Dragoon 204
1x3 Dragoon 204
1x1 Ballistari 95


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 21:22:58


Post by: Suzuteo


Wulfey wrote:
Nobody should be doubting dragoons. What is making me not run them is that I can't commit the 260 bucks it would take to get another 6 kits of them. 260 bucks and also the kit is fiendish hard to magnetize properly. And painting it is a bitch. And transporting it is a bitch. At its cheapest it is $40 to put 68 points of model on the table. I really think more people would buy into the Suzuteo dragoon strategy if we actually had more dragoon models.

All of this is true. Plus: THEY BREAK REALLY EASILY. Which just multiplies the rage. Tip: NEVER pick up a Dragoon by its wires. Grab them by where the legs join the chasis.

I actually don't recommend magnetizing them at all. The interconnections on the little cables really suck. I don't even use the roll cages because it's one less fragile and finnicky component to deal with. I chop the connector off the gun shield and slap it in front. I also cut off the tail and use half of the circular joint to give my riders a mechanical lance arm. I need to move the lance approximate 3mm to the right to clear the shield while leveled horizontally anyway; having the lances point upward looks good, but good luck transporting them. Finally, you really want to magnetize those bases.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 21:29:18


Post by: gendoikari87


Wulfey wrote:
Nobody should be doubting dragoons. What is making me not run them is that I can't commit the 260 bucks it would take to get another 6 kits of them. 260 bucks and also the kit is fiendish hard to magnetize properly. And painting it is a bitch. And transporting it is a bitch. At its cheapest it is $40 to put 68 points of model on the table. I really think more people would buy into the Suzuteo dragoon strategy if we actually had more dragoon models.

STYGIES screen - 555
Enginseer 52
1x3 Dragoon 204
1x3 Dragoon 204
1x1 Ballistari 95
have you considered conversions? the sentinel might be a good place to start.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please please actually try using them before you criticize them? Everyone is blown away by how good these guys are, and you're talking about Fist Kastelans...
I'm not saying fistelans are good just that they aren't that much worse than the THE UBER ROXORS HAXORS DRAGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONS.

and i have tried them twice. just as you specifify both times they got eaten alive by powerfists/Power klaws and in the second game they failed the charge and served only to give my opponent an extra move (the charge and consolidation).


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 21:34:05


Post by: Wulfey


Suzuteo wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
Nobody should be doubting dragoons. What is making me not run them is that I can't commit the 260 bucks it would take to get another 6 kits of them. 260 bucks and also the kit is fiendish hard to magnetize properly. And painting it is a bitch. And transporting it is a bitch. At its cheapest it is $40 to put 68 points of model on the table. I really think more people would buy into the Suzuteo dragoon strategy if we actually had more dragoon models.

All of this is true. Plus: THEY BREAK REALLY EASILY. Which just multiplies the rage. Tip: NEVER pick up a Dragoon by its wires. Grab them by where the legs join the chasis.

I actually don't recommend magnetizing them at all. The interconnections on the little cables really suck. I don't even use the roll cages because it's one less fragile and finnicky component to deal with. I chop the connector off the gun shield and slap it in front. I also cut off the tail and use half of the circular joint to give my riders a mechanical lance arm. I need to move the lance approximate 3mm to the right to clear the shield while leveled horizontally anyway; having the lances point upward looks good, but good luck transporting them. Finally, you really want to magnetize those bases.



My dragoons. I magged the shoulders to enable gun / handle / lance arm swapping. I magged the gun mount to swap the guns. I magged the feet to enable me to pull them off their bases for transport. And I put one of their legs on backwards and ended up having to convert that skull on there to hide that it was inside out. The antannae are in various states of disrepair having been broken at every tournement I have gone to.

Spoiler:


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 21:46:38


Post by: kinetoscopic


Wulfey wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
Nobody should be doubting dragoons. What is making me not run them is that I can't commit the 260 bucks it would take to get another 6 kits of them. 260 bucks and also the kit is fiendish hard to magnetize properly. And painting it is a bitch. And transporting it is a bitch. At its cheapest it is $40 to put 68 points of model on the table. I really think more people would buy into the Suzuteo dragoon strategy if we actually had more dragoon models.

All of this is true. Plus: THEY BREAK REALLY EASILY. Which just multiplies the rage. Tip: NEVER pick up a Dragoon by its wires. Grab them by where the legs join the chasis.

I actually don't recommend magnetizing them at all. The interconnections on the little cables really suck. I don't even use the roll cages because it's one less fragile and finnicky component to deal with. I chop the connector off the gun shield and slap it in front. I also cut off the tail and use half of the circular joint to give my riders a mechanical lance arm. I need to move the lance approximate 3mm to the right to clear the shield while leveled horizontally anyway; having the lances point upward looks good, but good luck transporting them. Finally, you really want to magnetize those bases.



My dragoons. I magged the shoulders to enable gun / handle / lance arm swapping. I magged the gun mount to swap the guns. I magged the feet to enable me to pull them off their bases for transport. And I put one of their legs on backwards and ended up having to convert that skull on there to hide that it was inside out. The antannae are in various states of disrepair having been broken at every tournement I have gone to.

Spoiler:


Oh, nice work! I know what I'll be trying with my next box of Ironstriders.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/05 23:40:56


Post by: Yoda79


You all make a common mistake when you talk in here and when you compare on table top.
That's why I scream user videos codex reviews etc. You try to judge a unit solo from a point cost and weapon.

Fistkastelans are good. But their have tons of issues.

A) good for not competitive play

Why because they cost extreme points. 2 their usage vs super cc units is really bad with 4+ no reroll and 3 att and no invu.

B) Role

Their role is intimidation they got their best defence for range weapons. So they meant to footslog upwards the field to attract enemy gun fire. Not dive to cc. Their role depends on playstyle and overall ad mech army. No review or no forum can explain this easily. But you LL understand if you take the unit and play it.

I have said many times I use them in almost all my index game pre codex. Great unit till they go cc. There you better have calc properly and their few attacks kill the target cause if you get locked waste of points. Especially if any good cc unit goes for cc.

C) their weapons are bad. Not in paper in synergy. Extremely good flamer not working well with fists. If you double the shots bb flamer. And with no flamer and 6 wounds no invu their dead. Basically atm you remove aegis their like dead. And if you have played them enough you know what I say it's true. I used them extensively.

Good intimidating unit fluff walking upon the field but has nothing to do vs competitive game. Dakkarobots can clear with 1 cp more enemy troops and now with wrath they got no equal in all army lists in mortals.
242 points for walking up the field is bad choise. Especially when the time comes and a good alpha strike cc army comes charge take the flamers within zero casualty and then you not only cry 242 points same as destroyers but will be exposed since you LL depend on them. 15 rangers and a enginseers will screen better will shoot more give them arc rifles and will deliver with obj secure arc str firing threat range 24-30 and even better at rapid. And a fist from enginseers. Cheaper more utility.

Dragoons can't even compete. Dragoons atm are the best possible take.

1*4 dragoon
1*2 dragoon screener
1*2+ balistarii lasc
Might be one of the best stygies you can get. Half the main troop guns won't be able to hit you. With -2 in 12". Now we said Robots are good to absorb fire well dragoons absord enemy heavy weapons plasma deep strikes etc etc. If you got 5+ ironstrider models make at least a
1*3 dragoon
1*1
1*1

You will never ever again remove it from any of your list .only add more.

Magnetise Robots hands easier and if you don't wanna play tour you can fist your friends easily since dragoons and dakkastelans with Mars are broken good.

As for onagers. I said many times the magic number is 3 . Usually 3 will provide enough for
A) knight kill or equal
B) handle an early loss able to play with 2
C) durability and with new stubbers also optins.

If you have played enough games in 8th you should by now see games with Cawl onagers remain.
Onager has 11 wounds best imperium gun below Titans and cover save maybe the only one from canticle 5+ invu and reroll 1s with healing . This is the reason we don't take knights and for 145 points with 6 stubbers it's still good even vs regiment Russ.

I know you all wonder why I say all those good things when usually I don't. Comparing units one by one seems a good codex. The issue remains in the big picture.

When you make a list the options we got are horrific.
A) not enough gems cause they fear exploit in wrath of mars(justified)
B) try making cheap spearhead or fill the heavy slots with cheap optins?? Vanguard??? We got a serious issue with detachments. Serious.
We need a detachments with 1 hq 1 elite 1 something +1 cp. Or we can't effectively play much more than dakkastelans.
C) some hq options this is rediculus with tpd and enginseers
D) some default options for units. Rustalkers run charge example abilities with no cp. For rangers destroyers rust etc.
E) point reductions if not revamped. Won't spend 210 points for a destroyers unit. I prefer to take a lemman Russ for armor more guns and 200 points with all on it.

We are not consistent. Onager 1d3 destroyers 1d6 Robots if used gem stationary breachers str 6 arc. Nerfed grav 30 points ??? Not to mention the lack of screener and transport and anti psyci. yes the fluff yes the hood dakkaline but we can't be competitive with only Robots. And stationary and taxed to take troops and expensive and with no options?

Adeptus is a nice army sure individually the units can perform and the gems tried to bring some flavor back but it's stupid to not be able to fill a vanguard in Mars or a second cheap heavy slot or a cheap fast unit or some bonus cp or even a different detachments option. For us to be mobile we deny our army any other option and must be predetermined. While any other army with 1 flier gets 2 x dragoon utility. With a transport the troop gets other utility not only 4-8" extra move. They become durable soack antitwnk make melee units able to charge with no gem usage.

The big picture people. Can't have 6 robots balistarii autocannon and icarus and arc rifles in one list. Why because a simple Russ list will cripple you.Ruza destroeyrs neutronagers lasc balistarii. The rest are not antitank. Can be used but are not taken as primary antitank and no if str 6 icarus was enough then arc rifles would be superb. Their not.

Stygies and onagers dragoons.
You LL soon realise there is a choise you gotta make. I LL give you my thoughts.

Neutronagers seem good at stygies. Well no. Cawl needs to buff units to be really effective. And onagers need that reroll to be consistent.
Destroeyrs Robots neutronagers with Cawl.
If you need to pick one I strongly suggest icarus for stygies.
-1 to hit can be enough for onager to loose reroll 1 s invu. So solo onagers stygies. If enemy has flier onager shots at be 2-3+ still good while if no flier you most likely will shoot troopish units with icarus so even 4+ not so important!
I believe if you got 2-4 spare ironstrider take 2 neutronagers and min 2 lasc balistarii. Those in stygies are superb. And fill outrider and screen a flank with -1 and remain a good threat if a bigger unit can be buffed to hit fliers.

So are balistarii lasc better than neutronagers ? No but you need to fill detachments so you might find usage. Same goes for datasmith inflirators and priests servitors. Cheap options viable best no but can work in some cases?

Who knows some might find their true playstyle after all.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 00:44:05


Post by: kinetoscopic


Yoda79 wrote:
You all make a common mistake when you talk in here and when you compare on table top.
That's why I scream user videos codex reviews etc. You try to judge a unit solo from a point cost and weapon.

Fistkastelans are good. But their have tons of issues.
Spoiler:

A) good for not competitive play

Why because they cost extreme points. 2 their usage vs super cc units is really bad with 4+ no reroll and 3 att and no invu.

B) Role

Their role is intimidation they got their best defence for range weapons. So they meant to footslog upwards the field to attract enemy gun fire. Not dive to cc. Their role depends on playstyle and overall ad mech army. No review or no forum can explain this easily. But you LL understand if you take the unit and play it.

I have said many times I use them in almost all my index game pre codex. Great unit till they go cc. There you better have calc properly and their few attacks kill the target cause if you get locked waste of points. Especially if any good cc unit goes for cc.

C) their weapons are bad. Not in paper in synergy. Extremely good flamer not working well with fists. If you double the shots bb flamer. And with no flamer and 6 wounds no invu their dead. Basically atm you remove aegis their like dead. And if you have played them enough you know what I say it's true. I used them extensively.

Good intimidating unit fluff walking upon the field but has nothing to do vs competitive game. Dakkarobots can clear with 1 cp more enemy troops and now with wrath they got no equal in all army lists in mortals.
242 points for walking up the field is bad choise. Especially when the time comes and a good alpha strike cc army comes charge take the flamers within zero casualty and then you not only cry 242 points same as destroyers but will be exposed since you LL depend on them. 15 rangers and a enginseers will screen better will shoot more give them arc rifles and will deliver with obj secure arc str firing threat range 24-30 and even better at rapid. And a fist from enginseers. Cheaper more utility.

Dragoons can't even compete. Dragoons atm are the best possible take.

1*4 dragoon
1*2 dragoon screener
1*2+ balistarii lasc
Might be one of the best stygies you can get. Half the main troop guns won't be able to hit you. With -2 in 12". Now we said Robots are good to absorb fire well dragoons absord enemy heavy weapons plasma deep strikes etc etc. If you got 5+ ironstrider models make at least a
1*3 dragoon
1*1
1*1

You will never ever again remove it from any of your list .only add more.

Magnetise Robots hands easier and if you don't wanna play tour you can fist your friends easily since dragoons and dakkastelans with Mars are broken good.

As for onagers. I said many times the magic number is 3 . Usually 3 will provide enough for
A) knight kill or equal
B) handle an early loss able to play with 2
C) durability and with new stubbers also optins.

If you have played enough games in 8th you should by now see games with Cawl onagers remain.
Onager has 11 wounds best imperium gun below Titans and cover save maybe the only one from canticle 5+ invu and reroll 1s with healing . This is the reason we don't take knights and for 145 points with 6 stubbers it's still good even vs regiment Russ.

I know you all wonder why I say all those good things when usually I don't. Comparing units one by one seems a good codex. The issue remains in the big picture.

When you make a list the options we got are horrific.
A) not enough gems cause they fear exploit in wrath of mars(justified)
B) try making cheap spearhead or fill the heavy slots with cheap optins?? Vanguard??? We got a serious issue with detachments. Serious.
We need a detachments with 1 hq 1 elite 1 something +1 cp. Or we can't effectively play much more than dakkastelans.
C) some hq options this is rediculus with tpd and enginseers
D) some default options for units. Rustalkers run charge example abilities with no cp. For rangers destroyers rust etc.
E) point reductions if not revamped. Won't spend 210 points for a destroyers unit. I prefer to take a lemman Russ for armor more guns and 200 points with all on it.

We are not consistent. Onager 1d3 destroyers 1d6 Robots if used gem stationary breachers str 6 arc. Nerfed grav 30 points ??? Not to mention the lack of screener and transport and anti psyci. yes the fluff yes the hood dakkaline but we can't be competitive with only Robots. And stationary and taxed to take troops and expensive and with no options?

Adeptus is a nice army sure individually the units can perform and the gems tried to bring some flavor back but it's stupid to not be able to fill a vanguard in Mars or a second cheap heavy slot or a cheap fast unit or some bonus cp or even a different detachments option. For us to be mobile we deny our army any other option and must be predetermined. While any other army with 1 flier gets 2 x dragoon utility. With a transport the troop gets other utility not only 4-8" extra move. They become durable soack antitwnk make melee units able to charge with no gem usage.

The big picture people. Can't have 6 robots balistarii autocannon and icarus and arc rifles in one list. Why because a simple Russ list will cripple you.Ruza destroeyrs neutronagers lasc balistarii. The rest are not antitank. Can be used but are not taken as primary antitank and no if str 6 icarus was enough then arc rifles would be superb. Their not.

Stygies and onagers dragoons.
You LL soon realise there is a choise you gotta make. I LL give you my thoughts.

Neutronagers seem good at stygies. Well no. Cawl needs to buff units to be really effective. And onagers need that reroll to be consistent.
Destroeyrs Robots neutronagers with Cawl.
If you need to pick one I strongly suggest icarus for stygies.
-1 to hit can be enough for onager to loose reroll 1 s invu. So solo onagers stygies. If enemy has flier onager shots at be 2-3+ still good while if no flier you most likely will shoot troopish units with icarus so even 4+ not so important!
I believe if you got 2-4 spare ironstrider take 2 neutronagers and min 2 lasc balistarii. Those in stygies are superb. And fill outrider and screen a flank with -1 and remain a good threat if a bigger unit can be buffed to hit fliers.

So are balistarii lasc better than neutronagers ? No but you need to fill detachments so you might find usage. Same goes for datasmith inflirators and priests servitors. Cheap options viable best no but can work in some cases?

Who knows some might find their true playstyle after all.


This is a pretty good summary of everything you've said in these threads to date, and it indirectly addresses a problem that's come up in previous threads: nothing is gained by shutting down conversation of other tactics or other options because "the best" tactic has already been agreed upon by the loudest posters.

I respect your tenacity in pushing for what you want to see as the competitive ad mech build, but now that most people can agree on the strongest Forge World, the most competitive units for the price, there needs to be space to talk about other ways to play the army.

One, because it's fun. Two, because the meta could change. Three, because this is a discussion board not a blog post and I come back here every day looking to find some tiny bit of insight of new idea to get me excited to go home and continue the hobby.

Point being, the tournament competitive build has been pretty well established, and there's room to keep talking about it. Just don't jump up and down when the topic moves to something else. #Fistellans4Life


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 01:13:04


Post by: Msolve


Wulfey wrote:
Nobody should be doubting dragoons. What is making me not run them is that I can't commit the 260 bucks it would take to get another 6 kits of them. 260 bucks and also the kit is fiendish hard to magnetize properly. And painting it is a bitch. And transporting it is a bitch. At its cheapest it is $40 to put 68 points of model on the table. I really think more people would buy into the Suzuteo dragoon strategy if we actually had more dragoon models.

STYGIES screen - 555
Enginseer 52
1x3 Dragoon 204
1x3 Dragoon 204
1x1 Ballistari 95


This is the reason why I am strongly considering abandoning AdMech for CSM, for the cost of the Dragoons I could pretty much build half or more of my CSM army. That combined with all the negativity I've been hearing about the Admech codex.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 01:28:41


Post by: SilverAlien


The codex really isn't bad in the sense that admech is a bad army. If we are being realistic, the actual codex is as strong and possibly stronger than the rest of the released codices. The ability to get our dogmas on onagers and Kastalens is huge. Unless you use FW dreads, we don't have anything like that in the CSM codex. The CSM does, by contrast, have a few more game changing stratagems, but the WT/relic sections are similar.

Honestly I don't get why people think our codex was so bad. It opened up more options than people give credit. We can run brigades and multiple battalions now. We have ways to deal with hordes that aren't Kastalens if we choose. We have decently priced infantry. We have delivery mechanisms for our melee units, two different ones in fact. And so on.

It left a few units still weaker than they should be, both of the battle servitors, staff priests and rust stalkers most notably, but in truth I think I've found even rust stalkers and destroyers to have a role of some sort in a potential army list.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 02:04:45


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Wait what? What do you use ruststalkers for? I use mine as infiltrators because I tell my opponent "no one trying to win would use ruststalkers in 8th, forget they even exist, haha".
Fulgurites are better in almost every way and they're STILL not good. So RustStalkers are just trash that costs 20 per model and should cost 10


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 02:34:56


Post by: Wulfey


I glued some 'needle' guns on my rustalkers using converted leftover infiltrator uzis and painted their heads skull color. I run them as eversors. They were excellent as eversors pre-codex.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 02:44:06


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Wulfey wrote:
I glued some 'needle' guns on my rustalkers using converted leftover infiltrator uzis and painted their heads skull color. I run them as eversors. They were excellent as eversors pre-codex.

Now THAT'S a good idea


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 03:02:57


Post by: LexOdin9


I used to run Fistellans in 7th. I can't justify running Fistellans in 8th, I just can't do it.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 03:40:03


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Spera wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
I don't even consider sisters viable until they get a plastic kit or you win the lottery.

Alternatively you could do sisters of silence with converting


Yes, your wallet will cry, but they are good. They are viable for sure, one of best army to mix in. Price of models is real bummer thou. But if you have one that are collecting dust on shelf now is good time to take them of since they haven't been this strong since 3'rd ed. While they lack in flexibility, they are basically one trick pony, they do they one thing really good. So happens that this is area where we lack.

I'll look into them, but perhaps Seph as a Deep Strike screen might be better than using Sisters as a whole offensively.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 06:39:08


Post by: Wulfey


Who else is ready to play to win? FOTM crew report in!

Spoiler:


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 07:51:06


Post by: Suzuteo


For the record, AdMech is not a bad army. In fact, most armies are much better off today than in 7E (aside from Eldar). The problem is that there are a lot of broken things in Guard; Scions seem okay now, but Conscripts, Elysians, and their artillery are still nightmares.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 09:07:32


Post by: gendoikari87


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spera wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
I don't even consider sisters viable until they get a plastic kit or you win the lottery.

Alternatively you could do sisters of silence with converting


Yes, your wallet will cry, but they are good. They are viable for sure, one of best army to mix in. Price of models is real bummer thou. But if you have one that are collecting dust on shelf now is good time to take them of since they haven't been this strong since 3'rd ed. While they lack in flexibility, they are basically one trick pony, they do they one thing really good. So happens that this is area where we lack.

I'll look into them, but perhaps Seph as a Deep Strike screen might be better than using Sisters as a whole offensively.
Hadn't thought about that. i'll have to go look them up. i know both the models for them are angelic (pun fully intended) and also conversion opportunities for them abound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote:
For the record, AdMech is not a bad army. In fact, most armies are much better off today than in 7E (aside from Eldar). The problem is that there are a lot of broken things in Guard; Scions seem okay now, but Conscripts, Elysians, and their artillery are still nightmares.
if they'd take the whole does not need line of site out the artillery wouldn't be as broken. but it would also really be uncouth and unfluffy Maybe "does not need line of sight but if you fire at a unit this model cannot see subtract 1 from the hit roll" would have been a good compromise.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 09:40:25


Post by: Spera


I think we need to construct section in guide "Best Competitive Core"
Give list for core for pure Ad Mech, so Mars artillery +stygies screen for like 1700pts and explain what you can do with last 300 to adjust list.

And then we could officialy take on less and non competitive play, shenanigans and so on. We would have to revisit this section only after next codex comes up, or some strange list will come up into meta.

I feel that we need this because even thou best of the best option is already known, half of us want to still compare and analyze in perspective of "best of the best", and half want to analyze units overall, even if they are bad. And we are arguing when we shouldn't.

We need this because otherwise we will stagnate. I for example, gonna test assault ad mech soon. I know that this isn't best(or maybe it is 0_o) but could grant greater insight into our melee units and how to use them.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 10:15:41


Post by: Suzuteo


If I had a minimum core, it would be this:

Cawl
2 Enginseers
15 Rangers
4 Kastelans
4 Dragoons
2 Neutron Crawlers

1466 points right there.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 10:32:26


Post by: Octovol


gendoikari87 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
For the record, AdMech is not a bad army. In fact, most armies are much better off today than in 7E (aside from Eldar). The problem is that there are a lot of broken things in Guard; Scions seem okay now, but Conscripts, Elysians, and their artillery are still nightmares.
if they'd take the whole does not need line of site out the artillery wouldn't be as broken. but it would also really be uncouth and unfluffy Maybe "does not need line of sight but if you fire at a unit this model cannot see subtract 1 from the hit roll" would have been a good compromise.


Artillery normally requires a spotter. I'd accept firing without LOS if another unit or model had to give up it's shooting to spot for the artillery.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 10:56:29


Post by: PiñaColada


Octovol wrote:


Artillery normally requires a spotter. I'd accept firing without LOS if another unit or model had to give up it's shooting to spot for the artillery.


Yeah, that would work. Or maybe if the first artillery unit is -1 to hit when fired without LOS and shots from other artillery units into the same target lose that modifier since they've become "honed in"


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 11:07:09


Post by: oOSkyOo


I’m so bored of Cawl with Dakka Robots. These games are absolutely no fun for me, or my opponent.
I looked into my Collection and will try with a different list. Just to play something else.

Battalion Detachment - Stygies VIII
Tech-Priest Dominus
Tech-Priest Enginseer
5x Skitarii Rangers /w 2x Transuranic Arquebus
5x Skitarii Rangers /w 2x Transuranic Arquebus
10x Skitarii Rangers
5x Skitarii Rangers
6x Sydonian Dragoon
Onager Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array

Spearhead Detachment - Stygies VIII
Tech-Priest Dominus
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array
Onager Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 11:11:00


Post by: Spera


 oOSkyOo wrote:
I’m so bored of Cawl with Dakka Robots. These games are absolutely no fun for me, or my opponent.
I looked into my Collection and will try with a different list. Just to play something else.

Battalion Detachment - Stygies VIII
Tech-Priest Dominus
Tech-Priest Enginseer
5x Skitarii Rangers /w 2x Transuranic Arquebus
5x Skitarii Rangers /w 2x Transuranic Arquebus
10x Skitarii Rangers
5x Skitarii Rangers
6x Sydonian Dragoon
Onager Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array

Spearhead Detachment - Stygies VIII
Tech-Priest Dominus
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Neutron laser
Onager Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array
Onager Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array



I see crabs, a loot of crabs. I would drop one neutron for more antihorde, infiltrators or something. Might me fun, maximum that i deployed was 4. Share how it worked out after everything.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 11:26:05


Post by: Octovol


Ya know if we hadn't lost the power first weapon for Onagers, they'd be just as good in combat as a Fistellan >.<


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 12:43:04


Post by: SilverAlien


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Wait what? What do you use ruststalkers for? I use mine as infiltrators because I tell my opponent "no one trying to win would use ruststalkers in 8th, forget they even exist, haha".
Fulgurites are better in almost every way and they're STILL not good. So RustStalkers are just trash that costs 20 per model and should cost 10


They aren't as deadly as fulgurites but are quite a bit tougher. I use them with the Stygies stratagem to get them forward a bit. They aren't amazing, but the first two turns they are toughness 3 sv 3+ at 10 points a wound. Basically a really low investment fairly tough thing I can put in my opponent's face early on. They aren't dragoon level tough, but they are a bit scarier for infantry, so getting them up in the enemy's face can be worth it.

They aren't exceptional by any stretch, but I'd say they end up being better than fulgrites for me.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 13:00:02


Post by: Kandela


I thought a lot about the state of things and after a while of contemplation I decided to share it with you guys that our new Codex I'm kinda... happy about it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we are somehow better off than... certain factions, but I definitely got what I cared most about.
Our infantry though no more fearless little cog-heads is cheaper than ever with some nice guns (Arquebuses, Radium, Calivers). Neutron Onager got a tiny amount better with Heavy Stubber costing now only 5 points (hell, I'm rocking double stubbers on my Neutron Onagers now!) Dragoons from excellent screen became great screen with option to go full berserk with right Stratagem and are now AP-1, Ironstriders are hilarious now as they hit on 2+ when stationary or can shoot at full ballistic after moving. Kataphron Destroyers although overpriced are not terrible and can be part of something greater (Plasma spam or helping out Kastellans). Engineseer is now an HQ choice for which I prayed to Omnissiah day and night and we still have something to look forward to with Fires of Cyraxus (believe me, it's a real pain when you don't have anything to look forward to) which possibly solve our transport problems with some Triaros Conveyer (which I probably will convert out of Plagueburst Crawler after removing all nurgliness from it) and battle-automata we all love.

It may just be that sun is shining and my antidepressants kicked back stronger than usual but since our index wasn't terrible our codex may not be so bad when you look at it from the right perspective (you just have to squint a little bit )


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 13:01:27


Post by: gendoikari87


SilverAlien wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Wait what? What do you use ruststalkers for? I use mine as infiltrators because I tell my opponent "no one trying to win would use ruststalkers in 8th, forget they even exist, haha".
Fulgurites are better in almost every way and they're STILL not good. So RustStalkers are just trash that costs 20 per model and should cost 10


They aren't as deadly as fulgurites but are quite a bit tougher. I use them with the Stygies stratagem to get them forward a bit. They aren't amazing, but the first two turns they are toughness 3 sv 3+ at 10 points a wound. Basically a really low investment fairly tough thing I can put in my opponent's face early on. They aren't dragoon level tough, but they are a bit scarier for infantry, so getting them up in the enemy's face can be worth it.

They aren't exceptional by any stretch, but I'd say they end up being better than fulgrites for me.
that makes sense but the infiltrators can kitearound other units with 5 shots at 12" or 3 at 18"


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 13:58:19


Post by: Yoda79


If you playing fun or bored but still wanna play some units a tpd with destroyers and 2 robots can work. Elimination volley and full plasma overcharge. Vanguard with plasma and go ahead. I might even consider fistelans so you can keep moving all the time . Flamers on destroyers for anti back field charges vang and Robots marching should be like rerolling one with 3+ balistic same as Cawl .

Ryza or agripinaa depending the fluff you like can produce either unkillable destroyers/breachers or str 9 3 wound plasm OMG.

Or you could Mars with grav onagers. A unit of 6 with destroyers with phosfor can give 42 shots for wrath.

Or you could stygies graia. stygies vehicles like onagers dragoons breachers priests and graia a mass army of troops with upgrades like arc spam. Playing the soldiers.
Rustalkers in units of 10 graia with omn mask on hq could be a force in melee.

Friendly games lots of options . I v tried a more relaxed detach in an apoca. Game with a bastion and 9 destroyers. Now you can set the bastion ( or was it fire redout not sure) in the mid and get 3*3 destroyers and Robots behind .all plasm ryza. Should kill anything. And the rest breachers stygia for deep strike and obj camping. Also nice for you not so used models paired with knights even. Etc. There are many nice things to try as said in fun games.

Even assault. Priests and rust. With inf. And dragoons also nice. Fast

And I will eventually try a heavy troop lists sure. Most likely with single dragoon units for running and tens of troops to follow. An all out brigade but with troops upgraded.

For competitive only
Spoiler:

Seems like someone if I'm not mistaken made a valid option cadian defence.
A list with greyfax for psych etc like a vang
Ce?esrine as tar pit tank
And Cawl as dakkaline most likely be one of the best lists for tour.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 14:27:31


Post by: gendoikari87


Wth myrmidon destructors from fw are basically the same price as kataphrons.... now I need to get some and proxy them as kataphrons.....


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 14:36:50


Post by: rvd1ofakind


SilverAlien wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Wait what? What do you use ruststalkers for? I use mine as infiltrators because I tell my opponent "no one trying to win would use ruststalkers in 8th, forget they even exist, haha".
Fulgurites are better in almost every way and they're STILL not good. So RustStalkers are just trash that costs 20 per model and should cost 10


They aren't as deadly as fulgurites but are quite a bit tougher. I use them with the Stygies stratagem to get them forward a bit. They aren't amazing, but the first two turns they are toughness 3 sv 3+ at 10 points a wound. Basically a really low investment fairly tough thing I can put in my opponent's face early on. They aren't dragoon level tough, but they are a bit scarier for infantry, so getting them up in the enemy's face can be worth it.

They aren't exceptional by any stretch, but I'd say they end up being better than fulgrites for me.

"fairly tough"? Since when? They're one of the worst units we have durability wise.
They are tougher than:
Servitors, Infiltrators, Destroyers. That's it


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 14:41:35


Post by: gendoikari87


T3 with a 4+ isn't the best but it does even out to basic marine survivability with 2 wounds. While not t6 6w that's still respectable not great not the best in the codex and Pails in comparison to guard in terms of point for point survives ility but still respectable


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 14:45:40


Post by: rvd1ofakind


But the marine costs 12 not 20


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 14:49:24


Post by: Vortenger


 kinetoscopic wrote:


This is a pretty good summary of everything you've said in these threads to date, and it indirectly addresses a problem that's come up in previous threads: nothing is gained by shutting down conversation of other tactics or other options because "the best" tactic has already been agreed upon by the loudest posters.

I respect your tenacity in pushing for what you want to see as the competitive ad mech build, but now that most people can agree on the strongest Forge World, the most competitive units for the price, there needs to be space to talk about other ways to play the army.

One, because it's fun. Two, because the meta could change. Three, because this is a discussion board not a blog post and I come back here every day looking to find some tiny bit of insight of new idea to get me excited to go home and continue the hobby.

Point being, the tournament competitive build has been pretty well established, and there's room to keep talking about it. Just don't jump up and down when the topic moves to something else. #Fistellans4Life


This sums up my sentiments exactly. Well said.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 14:52:16


Post by: gendoikari87


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
But the marine costs 12 not 20
true but the marine doesn't have a power weapon multiple attacks or a pistol 3/5 weapon. But that gets into a more i depth analysis and would be comparing apples to oranges


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there's a lot of high durability in this codex. Kastelans are basically 2w away from being dreadnoughts. And damn cheap. Kataphrons we get as troops are almost attack bikes without the mobility. outside the sicarians and rangers/vanguard everything is at least t5 or higher multiple wounds and we can heal them easier than other codexes. It's a book filled with high durability. Maybe not for the points but that's because of the ridiculous guns we put on everything


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 15:08:28


Post by: SilverAlien


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
But the marine costs 12 not 20


Marines cost 13 and are single wound, we are 20 with 2 wounds. Canticles can also get us a 3+ vs ranged fire on turn 1 and 2.

We are slightly less durable for cost than SoB infantry (who are more durable than SM), but far more dangerous.

Also they are tougher than both priest variants, when you consider the priests don't benefit from the cover canticle. Reasonably speaking, the only melee units tougher than them are dragoons and Kastalens, both of whom are kitted out for anti tank or meq, while rust stalkers have a more general anti infantry loadout.

I'm not saying they are a great unit, just that I found a rather niche role they did decently in.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 15:40:24


Post by: gendoikari87


Silver I think the problem is that to certain members, not the best = unplayable crap. It's a tournament mindset that says if x is 0.00001% better it should win more more is. Better more means more points means better chance of victory. It's not wrong per se....but it does not and can not account for different tactics that are new


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing that will account for different tactics and give you a complete picture is playtesting. And those with a tournament mindset simply will not risk innovation because more often then not that means failure


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Take grey knight terminators for example. I actually got pms saying I was an idiot for using them and should remove myself from the discussion. Because I was that stupid. What that poster didn't account for was 1. I was using a single troop patrol in a 1000 point game (obviously 9 paladins and an hq would have negated being able to take much mechanicus)and 2. It actually worked. But no not as good as paladins = crap = stupid choice. Without ever considering that it's a small unit with 2+ saves power weapons and psychic nullification that was going up against deathguard and bikes. Not to mention how they were used when where ect. No not as good as paladins = unplayable crap = stupid

Needless to say having actually used them I dismissed this posters opinion out of hand because it worked for me and they were being rude disrespectful and better more constructive advice was to be found elsewhere.

I found the storm bolters were very useful and have switched to strike squads which are even better but played differently.

And yes paladins are better than terminators.... but they're not troops. That negates some things you can do with the base terminators


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 17:35:15


Post by: Aaranis


Finally ! Got not one but TWO games today ! At last ! 1850 pts both.

First game against Guard, 8 Leman Russes, 3 Armoured Sentinels, 1 Astropath and 1 Primaris Psyker. Suffice to say my TAC list made with EVERY MODEL I OWN didn't particularly stand up, and I messed up by forgetting two crucial things, but the worst was my sheer unluck: I failed a great number of hit rolls, wound rolls, but my Neutronager did absolutely nothing (and it was more or less my only hope in this fight) and the Icarus one wasn't very useful either against T8 models. On his second turn he pretty much killed all my anti-armour and after having only destroyed three of his vehicles I lost turn 4. Got to say I used my Ruststalkers in CC against a Leman Russ to finish it off and it worked well, I still love these, even if they're not really tough. Still going to buy more Scions, love the models, fluff and rules.

Second game against Death Guard, a fun list with a little bit of everything but none of the new units. Lots of Characters and Poxwalkers, Typhus. Most of the game was a melee mess in the center, and as we played Night Fight and I play Stygies he had difficulties shooting me. I hold on pretty well and won 7-4. Vanguards were invaluable to clear the Poxwalkers, I'm glad they're still effective because I love the models. Disappointed in the Icarus Array, in both games (which weren't exactly filled with Fliers) he pretty much did nothing, I'd rather have built it as a second Laser honestly. Datasmith took 6 wounds off a Defiler, killing it, so he deserves to stay in my lists forever (and it's unfluffy to not have any Datasmiths). My two Domini were really good too, and his aura + repair are important. 5 Fulgurites killed Typhus in one round, so they're nice.

The Monitor Malevolus trait is nice, it gained me like 4-5 CPs in two games. In the future I'll try Necromechanic but with other lists, don't have the models right now. Arkhan's Autocaduceus pretty effective as predicted.

All around I think I'll build my lists more around the fun stuff I like than really powerful combos. I'm thinking about Dragoons, I only own one but buying three more to fill a Brigade will cost too much for so few points, and they're painful to transport. I'll buy more Skitarii infantry and one more Onager, don't know yet about Kastelans, I'll see when FoC comes out someday. I do really need more anti-armour though.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 17:52:40


Post by: Marius Xerxes


Anyone thought about throwing in a Tallarn detachment of some kind?

With mobility (outside of dragoons) being an issue, their ability to show up on any board edge with 3 units (plus two more with relic) seems like it could be useful.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 17:56:16


Post by: Aaranis


 Marius Xerxes wrote:
Anyone thought about throwing in a Tallarn detachment of some kind?

With mobility (outside of dragoons) being an issue, their ability to show up on any board edge with 3 units (plus two more with relic) seems like it could be useful.


My Guard opponent from today had a Tallarn Detachment with a Tank Commander and two more Russes, he made them appear right in my face and it worked fine.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 18:07:00


Post by: Yoda79


gendoikari87 wrote:
Silver I think the problem is that to certain members, not the best = unplayable crap. It's a tournament mindset that says if x is 0.00001% better it should win more more is. Better more means more points means better chance of victory. It's not wrong per se....but it does not and can not account for different tactics that are new


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing that will account for different tactics and give you a complete picture is playtesting. And those with a tournament mindset simply will not risk innovation because more often then not that means failure


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Take grey knight terminators for example. I actually got pms saying I was an idiot for using them and should remove myself from the discussion. Because I was that stupid. What that poster didn't account for was 1. I was using a single troop patrol in a 1000 point game (obviously 9 paladins and an hq would have negated being able to take much mechanicus)and 2. It actually worked. But no not as good as paladins = crap = stupid choice. Without ever considering that it's a small unit with 2+ saves power weapons and psychic nullification that was going up against deathguard and bikes. Not to mention how they were used when where ect. No not as good as paladins = unplayable crap = stupid

Needless to say having actually used them I dismissed this posters opinion out of hand because it worked for me and they were being rude disrespectful and better more constructive advice was to be found elsewhere.

I found the storm bolters were very useful and have switched to strike squads which are even better but played differently.

And yes paladins are better than terminators.... but they're not troops. That negates some things you can do with the base terminators


This attitude is bad. Don't join forums if you don't want to respect other opinions .tournament or not we all play hobby game and we all got communities friendly games etc. The fact many spend time to analyze so you get feedback should be respected. Not critisized. We are not here to chit chat in tacticsmjust because you or any other find it amusing to waste time blaming. If you don't like reading go make your own fluff threat and let's see who reads it. It's the last you gonna keep that tone in here. Go elsewhere to pew pew. Here we have talked about all adeptus aspects and LL contribute. But mainly we all try to explain. The bet possible not the worse . If you want the worse go play it solo. Do you understand the lot of you with the continues blames?
"Those with the tour mindset wont risk innovation?" Nice to know pure competition but be discouraged ....

Forums are for all and none is here to judge what others like to say or play. Whoever does not like it can go make his own threat.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 19:09:28


Post by: gendoikari87


Yoda79 wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
Silver I think the problem is that to certain members, not the best = unplayable crap. It's a tournament mindset that says if x is 0.00001% better it should win more more is. Better more means more points means better chance of victory. It's not wrong per se....but it does not and can not account for different tactics that are new


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing that will account for different tactics and give you a complete picture is playtesting. And those with a tournament mindset simply will not risk innovation because more often then not that means failure


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Take grey knight terminators for example. I actually got pms saying I was an idiot for using them and should remove myself from the discussion. Because I was that stupid. What that poster didn't account for was 1. I was using a single troop patrol in a 1000 point game (obviously 9 paladins and an hq would have negated being able to take much mechanicus)and 2. It actually worked. But no not as good as paladins = crap = stupid choice. Without ever considering that it's a small unit with 2+ saves power weapons and psychic nullification that was going up against deathguard and bikes. Not to mention how they were used when where ect. No not as good as paladins = unplayable crap = stupid

Needless to say having actually used them I dismissed this posters opinion out of hand because it worked for me and they were being rude disrespectful and better more constructive advice was to be found elsewhere.

I found the storm bolters were very useful and have switched to strike squads which are even better but played differently.

And yes paladins are better than terminators.... but they're not troops. That negates some things you can do with the base terminators


This attitude is bad. Don't join forums if you don't want to respect other opinions .tournament or not we all play hobby game and we all got communities friendly games etc. The fact many spend time to analyze so you get feedback should be respected. Not critisized. We are not here to chit chat in tacticsmjust because you or any other find it amusing to waste time blaming. If you don't like reading go make your own fluff threat and let's see who reads it. It's the last you gonna keep that tone in here. Go elsewhere to pew pew. Here we have talked about all adeptus aspects and LL contribute. But mainly we all try to explain. The bet possible not the worse . If you want the worse go play it solo. Do you understand the lot of you with the continues blames?
"Those with the tour mindset wont risk innovation?" Nice to know pure competition but be discouraged ....

Forums are for all and none is here to judge what others like to say or play. Whoever does not like it can go make his own threat.
for most people it is important to respect their opinions, not trolls. Don't feed the trolls


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Aaranis wrote:
 Marius Xerxes wrote:
Anyone thought about throwing in a Tallarn detachment of some kind?

With mobility (outside of dragoons) being an issue, their ability to show up on any board edge with 3 units (plus two more with relic) seems like it could be useful.


My Guard opponent from today had a Tallarn Detachment with a Tank Commander and two more Russes, he made them appear right in my face and it worked fine.
did you just... what? outflanking russes? I Should really have paid closer attention to the guard dex because that combined with conscripts which as far as I can tell we're only lightly needed, is insane.

Can they outflank the superheavies too?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 19:26:45


Post by: Marius Xerxes


gendoikari87 wrote:
did you just... what? outflanking russes? I Should really have paid closer attention to the guard dex because that combined with conscripts which as far as I can tell we're only lightly needed, is insane.

Can they outflank the superheavies too?


Technically, yes they can. But Reece at FLG says he thinks with 99% certainty that it was an oversight and will get changed (on the Super Heavy front)

But yes, they have a 3 CP stratagem that lets them reserve 3 units and bring them on within 7" of any board edge with the usual 9" away from enemy models. Guard also has a relic that lets the bearer and one infantry squad do the same as well. So including the character, you could pop out 5 units somewhere.

For Ad-Mech having mobility issues, Tallarn seems like a natural fit to assist with that.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 19:31:59


Post by: gendoikari87


That's nice. "Hey my tank squadron is going to go overs here and take one of your backfield objectives. Have fun trying to shoot everything off the board ... at t8" talk about digging in. Can you even call that kiting?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 20:04:24


Post by: Suzuteo


I'm not too worried about Ambush. It's actually really easy to lock them out of your half of the deployment zone given the 7" from edge requirement; you don't even need to block the entire area, just enough so that a tank can't fit. I mean, these guys can shoot you from practically anywhere anyway.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 20:12:44


Post by: Marius Xerxes


I'm not concerned with playing against it. I am looking to play with it.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 20:23:10


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


 Marius Xerxes wrote:
I'm not concerned with playing against it. I am looking to play with it.


Exactly!

Curious to see how we can fit this into our lists.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 20:25:54


Post by: Iago40k


I honestly think a stygies brigade will be my way to go or at least stygies heavy and no cawl . I play a lot of tournament players in my local club and the meta is very chaos and melee heavy these days. Getting the chance of infiltrating is just crazy good and i am getting more and more frustrated with dakkastelans and how easy they are to tie up.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 20:42:27


Post by: Yoda79


Well I read what you all say but if that was the case the only thing we miss is a good way to get more cp and a good screener.

And that said I build my ad mech with out much troops and add a
Guard batt. Not to mention the 4 infantry with heavy mortars commanders but what really like is 2* bullgryns with 4+ invu and taurox. Chargeeeee


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 21:24:44


Post by: Wulfey


I think a Stygies brigade can work but you are going to be using way less Dakkabots. Maybe just 1 set of 2 and bring the datasmith. Cawl/Wrath of mars adds immense value to the dakkabots in a way that no other forgeworld can. EDIT: actually, a third ONager would do you much better than the bots. The bots aren't bringing anything to Stygies that another unit can't already do.

Stygies brigades would favor a heavy stack of dragoons, at least two units of multiple dragoons to take advantage of their great bonuses. I would also stack up a good amount of rangers with the arquebus to take advantage of being tough at range.

THe good point blank units in admech are the (1) Dragoon, (2) Electropriests, and (3) kind of the plasma guns? If you are running a stygies brigade then you have the points to half infiltrate all of these units at least 50% up the board so that they can get into the critical 18" threat range. The big reason that plasma calivers suck is that they only shoot at 18", but if you could get your boys exactly 21" away, then they could consistently get into range while still being 12" out for the -1.

A stygies brigade will need at least 1 20 stack of priests though. You need some kind of bomb to threaten your opponent with damage and a stygies brigade has a whole lot of leftover points if you are running small bots and no Cawl.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 21:46:51


Post by: Buddingsquaw


Here's a laugh for a 1k points list:

1 Dominus w/ Erad Ray & Macrostubber, taking the Prime Hermeticon warlord trait. (And the Psuedogenator for better stabbing).
3 10-Man Infiltrators to flavour.
(I've just given the Carbines + Swords combo a good bash; the AP was rather handy).
1 Icarian Onager for good measure.

Ran the detatchment as Stygies, mostly because the Stygies stuff best fits my flower-camo army, but crucially because of the spooky bush strategem that lets you, basically, deep strike during deployment.
Dump yourself where you fancy, making full use of the various lovely bonuses your Domini can hand out to Sicarians.
That -1 to hit shtick? That's just a happy bonus should you get stranded after wiping out your target.

This little list here is silly, definitely. Had a good chance to pull off the main mechanics of this against an army of Dark Reapers with a Hemlock and Wave Serpent. (Anti-tank lists against stickmen... nah)
As one-sided as the match was, it did still highlight rather well the capabilities of such a list, seeing just how much use I can get out of the Hermeticon WT.
Under no illusion that any normal amount of shooting will can this list. After all, a 5-man Sicarian unit is just as durable as a 10-man Skittle unit (ignoring morale).
,
Having the Hermeticon Dominus around the Infiltrators makes them super efficient, oh aye.
Hell, bloody good job they did nerf the Stickarians, because they really do their jobs proper-like despite.
----

I've a lot of interest in making Melée AdMech lists work. Already had fine results from Kastelan Deathstars, and that was from the index. Certainly next on my list to see how much further I can take those.
Specifiying in one notion, and taking enough of it to see how it performs, gives plenty of insight into their capablity as a modular list part. Always RPS with such things, but all the while working towards a Melée TAC list.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 21:56:28


Post by: Suzuteo


 Marius Xerxes wrote:
I'm not concerned with playing against it. I am looking to play with it.

Oh. Well, you'd be sinking a lot of points and CP into it. Especially if you are bringing an HQ for them. Your choices are essentially Pask, two Lemons, and Cadian or Tallarn and three Lemons.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 22:55:57


Post by: Iago40k


Yes priests are very important for stygies.
And i was thinking, for 2cp we can shoot with an infatry unit at a unit that deepstruck within 12 inches. This is massive since our screens are kind of a mess atm. So which unit would do this best? 10 vanguard with 3 calivers, infiltrators? Priests?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 22:58:13


Post by: gendoikari87


Iago40k wrote:
Yes priests are very important for stygies.
And i was thinking, for 2cp we can shoot with an infatry unit at a unit that deepstruck within 12 inches. This is massive since our screens are kind of a mess atm. So which unit would do this best? 10 vanguard with 3 calivers, infiltrators? Priests?
too bad it specifies infantry


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/06 23:57:44


Post by: Marius Xerxes


Suzuteo wrote:
Oh. Well, you'd be sinking a lot of points and CP into it. Especially if you are bringing an HQ for them. Your choices are essentially Pask, two Lemons, and Cadian or Tallarn and three Lemons.


You have to be Tallarn to use that Stratagem to "outflank" 3 units. No Pask or Cadians allowed.

I was looking at Hellhounds, personally.

16" range plus being changed to be 2D6 hits seems perfect for tagging backfield camping units like AL Cultists and any other small or fragile unit types that normally carry the -1 to hit over 12". HH doesn't care since it auto hits. Plus, with it hovering at 15-16" away, the unit would have to shift off its spot if it wanted to maximize any kind of rapid fire weapons they have. Also helps keep is safer from an assault by making the distance being a fairly high roll (10+ easily)

HQ could be either a cheap character or a Tank commander. Though a waste of its BS 3, a Russ with trips flamers would do work as well. Tallarn tank commander can order itself now (also changed in the codex) to move then shoot or shoot then move. So it can pop on 9" away, scoot into range and then drop 3D6 flamer shots + turret weapon.

Tallarn also don't suffer the penalty for shooting heavy weapons after moving on their vehicles. So that also opens up the option of anything carrying multiple Multi-Melta's jumping off a board edge and putting a lot of hurt into something like a super heavy or knight.

This is mostly just a thought exercise at this point. But I would be looking at 500 pts or so of maximum investment in a Tallarn Spearhead. There are a lot of options and ways you could take advantage of their rules to match well with Ad Mech, imo.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/07 00:41:06


Post by: interviglium


Does it work with Vehicle squadrons?

Go big and roll 9 Hellhounds in behind enemy lines.

Also, yeah, wow, Myrmidon are almost 50% cheaper than Kataphrons, even including shipping from the UK...

So on the topic of using not great units...I've been contempating trying a brigade detachment with my elite slots filled by heavy bolter servitors - give that enginseer in the brigade something to babysit. But then I look at guard heavy weapons teams and realise just how badly pointed Servitors are... but to experiment with a brigade they seem a bit more useful than 3 datasmiths.




Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/07 06:50:09


Post by: Iago40k


gendoikari87 wrote:
Iago40k wrote:
Yes priests are very important for stygies.
And i was thinking, for 2cp we can shoot with an infatry unit at a unit that deepstruck within 12 inches. This is massive since our screens are kind of a mess atm. So which unit would do this best? 10 vanguard with 3 calivers, infiltrators? Priests?
too bad it specifies infantry

Well thats not too bad actually. I mean a full squad of vanguard with 3 calivers can out a dent into anything. I wouldnt use breacher or destroyer for this job. Destroyer would be great but their price tag is just insane.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/07 08:24:50


Post by: Aaranis


As anyone tried out plasma Destroyers with the Ryza stratagem and +1 to Hit for Kataphrons/Kastelans ? Not looking to know if they're the best thing ever, just if they're effective. I had an idea to make prettier Kataphrons by using Bullgryns (they're cheaper too) converted with Destroyers pieces. I love the idea of 3 meters tall Servitors better than little tank servitors. That'd be a start for a more CC-centered army composition. They'd fill the much-needed anti-armour roles in my army, while I'd go with a bunch of Sicarians and a Prime Hermeticon Dominus in CC. I noted that I actually liked big messy fights in the center of the board from my game against Death Guard yesterday, it makes for the most funny results sometimes. I'd like to try it out more. I still believe in CC Vanguards !


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/07 10:05:51


Post by: Tyel


 Aaranis wrote:
As anyone tried out plasma Destroyers with the Ryza stratagem and +1 to Hit for Kataphrons/Kastelans ? Not looking to know if they're the best thing ever, just if they're effective. I had an idea to make prettier Kataphrons by using Bullgryns (they're cheaper too) converted with Destroyers pieces. I love the idea of 3 meters tall Servitors better than little tank servitors. That'd be a start for a more CC-centered army composition. They'd fill the much-needed anti-armour roles in my army, while I'd go with a bunch of Sicarians and a Prime Hermeticon Dominus in CC. I noted that I actually liked big messy fights in the center of the board from my game against Death Guard yesterday, it makes for the most funny results sometimes. I'd like to try it out more. I still believe in CC Vanguards !


Against the right target its really good. You'd expect overcharged destroyers to make their points back against the right targets.
The problem is its 3 CP a go, so you are probably only using it once or twice if you do nothing else. Without at least the Ryza stratagem though destroyers become a bit crap (unless you get lucky).


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/07 10:12:10


Post by: Aaranis


Tyel wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:
As anyone tried out plasma Destroyers with the Ryza stratagem and +1 to Hit for Kataphrons/Kastelans ? Not looking to know if they're the best thing ever, just if they're effective. I had an idea to make prettier Kataphrons by using Bullgryns (they're cheaper too) converted with Destroyers pieces. I love the idea of 3 meters tall Servitors better than little tank servitors. That'd be a start for a more CC-centered army composition. They'd fill the much-needed anti-armour roles in my army, while I'd go with a bunch of Sicarians and a Prime Hermeticon Dominus in CC. I noted that I actually liked big messy fights in the center of the board from my game against Death Guard yesterday, it makes for the most funny results sometimes. I'd like to try it out more. I still believe in CC Vanguards !


Against the right target its really good. You'd expect overcharged destroyers to make their points back against the right targets.
The problem is its 3 CP a go, so you are probably only using it once or twice if you do nothing else. Without at least the Ryza stratagem though destroyers become a bit crap (unless you get lucky).

Yeah the 3 CPs means I'd use it only once to absolutely destroy whatever it is I'm shooting at. Rest of the time they'd just fire Overcharge with a Dominus nearby until they die I guess, that's how my fluff would justify the use for expendable Servitors anyway.

With the Ryza stratagem you can range from your 3 models dead at once to 54 Damage on Overcharge on maximum luck, so they're really shady to use.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/07 13:22:05


Post by: Yoda79


I m trying . Mars with Cawl seems to benefit from a battalion detachment. And because I like Cawl rerolling for Robots onagers snipers but also seems valid for destroyers. So it fits perfectly for me in my detachment and I wanted those destroyers also for flamer overwatch in front of robots and 2 cp infoslave skull for deep striking armies.

Somehow a batt Mars

Cawl
Engn

Rang snipers
Ranger snipers
Destroyers plasma

Robots
Neutronager
Neutronager

Is superb but the cost is extreme. Won't let you get nothing else. And in my list I came short 70-100 points to include destroyers. Can't unless you decide you won't play anything else than pure dakka static wall. And I say this switching breachers for destroyers. I had stygia breachers but again.

Neither breachers stygia nor destroyers Mars for me at least have room in list. Destroyers maybe but 216 points breachers why better get a robot and a ranger squad more or an onager. It's just not good.Ws bs 4+? T5 6+ invu for 140-210 points?? Why? Icarus onager 100 times better cheaper just not troop. But why again get a 4+ armor troop instead of an onager? Just to spend 2 cp if not more to shoot one unit deep striking. Better have the onager take the hits and shoot back lol or rangers stock die while robot shoots back. It's stupid really gw with kataphrons have not done a good job.

Really I tried to put them in my lists useless a vanguard full plasma bla bla graia will shoot better in melee range with one more wound better armor and tons of dice. For average 132 points.

Tip is use graia batt with vang plasma and in melee if you use warlord trait you shoot plasma from 3 squads in enemy cc with -1 tough.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/07 13:31:26


Post by: gendoikari87


interviglium wrote:


Also, yeah, wow, Myrmidon are almost 50% cheaper than Kataphrons, even including shipping from the UK...



oh? where do you live? cause they're 35 pounds vs 40 pounds each for three. so about the same price. Do you live in australia? cause that would be an intersting meta if forge world didn't get the double price treatment GW products get.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/07 15:48:47


Post by: Tiger9gamer


wow I thought all mechanicus threads would have been banished after the last salt mining opperation, but it is really good to see more discussion on this topic.

anyways I was just thinking about a lucius style rushing army and wanted to have some feedback on it:

Battalion +3 cp:

Warlord: volkite Tech priest
enginseer

10 plasma vanguard for deep striking -1cp
10 arc vanguard for deepstriking -1cp
rangers

infiltrators w/ tasers
infiltrators w/ power swords

x3 neutron onagers
__________________

fast attack force org +1:
techpriest dominus w/ volkite + solar flare

x3 dragoons
x3 dragoons

datasmith
2 fist bots
_____________________
lucius because that's what I painted and was my first FW love for the mechanicus, and it allows my guys a little more toughness on the field.

total is 2,000 points-ish and has a whole lot of fast movers and deep striking. vanguard and infiltrators over electropriests cause using the models I have / cost less as a base and throwing the dragoons at the opponent to mess them up. plus vanguard are fairly dangerous with their guns at assassinating targets.

turn 1 would be a mess as almost everything in reserve appears on turn 1 with the fast dominus solar flaring over, and since he is there I could use shroudpsalm in order to protect my squishies better. then it's just a mad rush over to kill the enemy fast and hard.

thoughts?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/07 19:06:54


Post by: SilverAlien


Looks fairly good, though I'm not sure arc weapons are really worth it right now. Though they make good infantry killers in RF range. Similarly, I was underwhelmed by the power sword infiltrators, but they could make an interesting skirmish unit with the guns.


Also, I wrote up another thing on my ideas about how the viability of some more nonstandard builds. It's long and rambly, so read at your own risk.

Spoiler:
I've been doing more calculations to help find other viable and point efficient builds that lean less heavily on Cawl+Kastalens, but can still be considered competitive at least at a local level.

Hordes: Honestly, our normal skitarii are cheap enough that, with proper support from a dominus, they can can manage at the same rough efficiency as baseline Cawl+Kastalens. Wrath of mars means we require corpus tech priests to match, though in unsure if either the unit or stratagem should ever practically be used for this purpose.

Vehicles: neutron onagers outperform kastalens here, if both are given support, until wrath of mars comes into play, though things like 2+ tanks do make the kastalens struggle a bit even with the stratagem, and anything with an invulnerable save screws with neutron onagers (though that is still the best weapon choice)

Both?: it's worth mention Kastalens are unique to our army in that they can deal with both tanks and infantry with proper support. Cawl is the easiest and safest way to support them, but a unit of plasma destroyers and the stratagem to add +1 to both units' hit rolls is also a decent alternative. Plasma is good, and destroyers aren't a bad platform for it with said stratagem, though they are still very fragile. Really needs Stygies or Lucius to stick around, and even then is a prime target. Still, this is an alternative was to add a bit of versatility to a list of somewhat specialized units.

Mortal wound spam: some enemies, such as Magnus, require mortal wound spam. Kastalens with wrath of mars can do this job well, but shockingly so can rust stalkers and fulgurites. The priests are actually the best choice with the double fights stratagem, and are more annoying for Magnus to kill.

The second mortal wound alternative is to look outside our army, as you may want some psychic support regardless. Inquisitors are a good choice with some synergy with our skitarii as well, assassins also work, and you can always spam any cheap psyker for it as well. This is one time I don't feel too bad going outside the army, lack of psychic support has always been an issue we had to deal with.

I also think it's worth mentioning why one might bother doing any of this. The biggest issue with Cawl+Kastalens is they don't work well with a larger admech force. If you are already running 1000 points into two units and you need lots of bodies and CP to support them, you go to guard for the rest. They already bring such a range of firepower to the table, you might grab an onager or two to create a spearhead but honestly after that I'd look else where. If you want to stay in house it is easier to build a well rounded mechanicus army without them I find, as we simply lack the tools to properly support such a unit.

So, personally I'd recommend Lucius and/or Stygies for a pure admech force, Mars Death Star is a more competitive imperial soup list of course.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, one more thing we should probably be aware of: the new shadow sword+volcano cannon is brutal and will likely be an issue for us. It'll easily kill an onager every turn with just the main cannon, or 2-3 Kastalens.

Stygies again is really worth looking at, we are going to need to blunt that firepower somewhat.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/07 23:06:03


Post by: MIKEtheMERCILESS


Mmm...

The Warlord trait "Friendly <Forge World> Infantry units within 6‘‘ of your Warlord can re-roll failed to hit rolls in the Fight phase"
+ Priests (either/or)
+ the Strategm "Select a unit of priests, they can immediately fight a second time"
+ Charge/counter-charge

= Primarch killer?
Edit: Probably not. But still may have some mileage...


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/07 23:11:24


Post by: SilverAlien


It's good, but it's a lot of tools being put together for a counter that may not be needed a lot of time. Well....

Actually I guess it isn't? I usually include WT when I build lists but, like relics, those actually change game to game don't they? The stratagem also is strictly optional. So as long as your have staff priests, you can just swap over to the WT and be ready. That's neat.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 01:57:37


Post by: Tiger9gamer


SilverAlien wrote:
Looks fairly good, though I'm not sure arc weapons are really worth it right now. Though they make good infantry killers in RF range. Similarly, I was underwhelmed by the power sword infiltrators, but they could make an interesting skirmish unit with the guns.


honestly the arc guns are kinda crap on the skitarii but I already made 10 of them in 7th and not really feeling the drive to gut and replace all of them. maybe I will in the future, but for now they stay, and they take up a significant portion of my skitarii forces. I have been surprised by the heavy arc rifles once or twice, as they have enough rend and damage potential to act as a finisher to my neutron lasers / dropping plasma.

as for unique builds sure you can go crazy on the vehicles and dudes, but there are always drawbacks to that with our codex as stated in other closed threads. I do agree with your thoughts on indipendant FW's though, but I personally think graia and mars (without cawl) could still be very good if some more thought is put into it.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 08:05:27


Post by: Yoda79


Arc rifles cost 4 points for a rapid 24 6 -1 and possible d3. Where is the problem? Use them.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 08:46:54


Post by: MIKEtheMERCILESS


Yoda79 wrote:
Arc rifles cost 4 points for a rapid 24 6 -1 and possible d3. Where is the problem? Use them.


^ This. For Rangers though. You're already paying a premium for the 3 shot carbine on a Vanguard, may as well use it.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 08:57:12


Post by: Aaranis


Yeah I had three Arc weapons (2 rifles 1 pistol) in a squad of Vanguards yesterday against Death Guard and the Arc weapons managed to kill some Plague Marines, more than the Radium anyway. I seem to always fail to wound a 3+ model without any AP.

I'll equip my Rangers with them in the future though, I like to keep the volume of fire of the Vanguards. Plus, they're really awesome-looking weapons.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 09:22:48


Post by: MIKEtheMERCILESS


++ FISTY KASTELANS

I apologise if this has already been covered - one of the big arguments against them is their WS 4+.. what about tieing them in with the Warlord trait that lets you re-roll missed hits in the fight phase?

So looking at Stygies, we're looking at model at 115 a pop, 3 attacks on re-rollable 4+ (Assume Warlord is with them), 3 Phosphor shots at 4+ re-rolling 1s, T7, 2+ and -1 to hit at >12".
Strategms include ability to instantly swap out to perma double-hit, deploy closer (start T1 on a 1+ save with Shroundpsalm, which should help).


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 09:45:44


Post by: Aaranis


 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
++ FISTY KASTELANS

I apologise if this has already been covered - one of the big arguments against them is their WS 4+.. what about tieing them in with the Warlord trait that lets you re-roll missed hits in the fight phase?

So looking at Stygies, we're looking at model at 115 a pop, 3 attacks on re-rollable 4+ (Assume Warlord is with them), 3 Phosphor shots at 4+ re-rolling 1s, T7, 2+ and -1 to hit at >12".
Strategms include ability to instantly swap out to perma double-hit, deploy closer (start T1 on a 1+ save with Shroundpsalm, which should help).


I've thought about that, but the problem is that the Warlord Trait (Prime Hermeticon I believe) only affects <Infantry>, so no rerolls for our beloved Robots. The only way to help them hit is the Canticle to reroll 1s. If you're playing Ryza you'll reroll 1s to Wound, which can be interesting as well, but then you lose the invaluable movement abilities given by either Stygies or Lucius.

I really wish we had more support for the Fistellans, the price of the Fists in itself is outrageous.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 14:04:42


Post by: Wayniac


If only taking two dunecrawlers, take both with neutron or one neutron one Icarus?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 14:15:34


Post by: ultimentra


I've fielded 2 dunecrawlers one Neutron and one Icarus for about 5 games now, and every time the Icarus does next to nothing. I'm seriously considering going 2 Neutron because I've magnetized mine. Pop a single command point stratagem and your Neutron is hitting supersonic fliers on a 2+ anyway.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 15:29:47


Post by: Yoda79


Exactly. Anti air duties can be also done from other weapons.
Depending on the list you play. Ranger with snipers or arc.
Always good if you field 5 man rangers to have 2 arc hitting on 4 with rerolls not bad.

Neutronager with rerolls 4+ not bad if need. And yes all can use gems for extra hit. All flamers if you got any plasma etc also nice. Vanguard with plasma v good.

But if you field more than 3 neutron you need to consider you total list for a 4th icarus. Depending on the flier and if we talking about mass armies or single vehicle Robots if shoot 4+ reroll also good. Not with -1 hit though


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 16:07:05


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Going to a 50PL tournament. I actually like it because I get to make different lists. yay. Got 4 Stygies lists(feel Mars is too neutered at 1k pts(roughly):
2 Enginseer Battalion:
Spoiler:

2x Enginseer
2x Sniper rangers (5man, 2 of them snipers, omnispex)
5 Vanguard (2 of them plasma, omnispex)
6 Dragoons (with Phosphor Serpenta)
2 Neutron Onagers (with a bonus Cognis Stubber)

Spearhead
Spoiler:

Enginseer
2x Sniper rangers (5man, 2 of them snipers, omnispex)
6 Dragoons (with Phosphor Serpenta)
3 Neutron Onagers (with a bonus Cognis Stubber)

Patrol (with dominus)
Spoiler:

Dominus(Erad ray, Serpenta)
2x Sniper rangers (5man, 2 of them snipers, omnispex)
Infiltrators (Taser)
5 Dragoons (with Phosphor Serpenta)
2 Neutron Onagers (with a bonus Cognis Stubber)

Outrider(aka patrol turned into outrider)
Spoiler:
Dominus(Erad ray, Serpenta)
2x Sniper rangers (5man, 2 of them snipers, omnispex)
Infiltrators (Taser)
Dragoon (with Phosphor Serpenta)
2x 2 Dragoons (with Phosphor Serpenta)
2 Neutron Onagers (with a bonus Cognis Stubber)


Really no clue which one to take though


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 16:31:42


Post by: Iago40k


Had an interesting test match yesterday versus the new Astra MIlitarum. My list was a slight variance of Suzuteos Goondozer list which you can find here https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/730618.page. I played with Cawl, 4 Dakkstelans, 1 unit of Infiltrators, 2 Icarus Onager in Mars, 2 Enginseers, 3 Ranger (1 with 2 Arquebusses), 2-2-3 Dragoons in Stygies. I used the warlord trait for getting back CPs on a 6 (which worked incredible. Over the course of the game I used 13 CPs and had 1 left over), and I used the omniscient mask to bump the first turn charge with Infiltrators and the unit with 3 Dragoons. He had Plasma Pask, 6 infantry squads with 10 men, 2 psykers, 3 commisars, Devil Dog, 2 Wyvern, 2 Bassilisks, Punisher Russ, a couple of mortar teams, 2 ratling units and 2 scout sentinels.
I got first round and infiltrated my 3 Dragoons 9" close to his devil dog, a sentinel and 2 infanttry squads. Omniscient Mask slightly behind. I deestriked the infiltrators close to him as well and rushed the field up with the other dragoon units. I moved 8 with the kastellans and popped for cps so they hit on 3s, double shoot and wrath of mars. killed pask with that. dragoons killed the devil dog and the infiltrator a 10 men unit, the arquebusses killed a psyker. on his turn he killed 3 dragoons, infiltrator and 1 dakkastelan. in my 2nd round I wrath of marsed the punisher, got one basilisk down to 5 h, killed a sentinel and another 10 men squad plus a heavy weapons team. he coulnd kill anything in his round 2 thanks to Stygies and we called it their cause my third round of shooting would be the end to the rest of his vehicles.
I love this list. The Dragoons are just so good in a Stygies detachment. They bring what we need the most: board presence. THe infiltrator didnt work again. yes they killed a 10 man unit but since I did not get shroudpsalm round 2 they died very quickly. I prefer another dragoon and maybe switch the rangers to vanguard since a 5 man of vanilla ranger do absolutely nothing.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 17:06:32


Post by: Aaranis


Iago40k wrote:
Had an interesting test match yesterday versus the new Astra MIlitarum. My list was a slight variance of Suzuteos Goondozer list which you can find here https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/730618.page. I played with Cawl, 4 Dakkstelans, 1 unit of Infiltrators, 2 Icarus Onager in Mars, 2 Enginseers, 3 Ranger (1 with 2 Arquebusses), 2-2-3 Dragoons in Stygies. I used the warlord trait for getting back CPs on a 6 (which worked incredible. Over the course of the game I used 13 CPs and had 1 left over), and I used the omniscient mask to bump the first turn charge with Infiltrators and the unit with 3 Dragoons. He had Plasma Pask, 6 infantry squads with 10 men, 2 psykers, 3 commisars, Devil Dog, 2 Wyvern, 2 Bassilisks, Punisher Russ, a couple of mortar teams, 2 ratling units and 2 scout sentinels.
I got first round and infiltrated my 3 Dragoons 9" close to his devil dog, a sentinel and 2 infanttry squads. Omniscient Mask slightly behind. I deestriked the infiltrators close to him as well and rushed the field up with the other dragoon units. I moved 8 with the kastellans and popped for cps so they hit on 3s, double shoot and wrath of mars. killed pask with that. dragoons killed the devil dog and the infiltrator a 10 men unit, the arquebusses killed a psyker. on his turn he killed 3 dragoons, infiltrator and 1 dakkastelan. in my 2nd round I wrath of marsed the punisher, got one basilisk down to 5 h, killed a sentinel and another 10 men squad plus a heavy weapons team. he coulnd kill anything in his round 2 thanks to Stygies and we called it their cause my third round of shooting would be the end to the rest of his vehicles.
I love this list. The Dragoons are just so good in a Stygies detachment. They bring what we need the most: board presence. THe infiltrator didnt work again. yes they killed a 10 man unit but since I did not get shroudpsalm round 2 they died very quickly. I prefer another dragoon and maybe switch the rangers to vanguard since a 5 man of vanilla ranger do absolutely nothing.

How did you give BS 3+ to the Kastelans ? It needs a unit of Destroyers nearby to work and you didn't mention you took some. Either way I'd love to run a Dragoon-heavy list because I love the theme of it (and I play Stygies for now so that's their FW) but I don't feel like shelling out 38€ *5 to complete the list I need :/ I have one Dragoon and even alone the +2 to Hit stratagem works nicely, can't imagine what it would be like to have 2 squads of two and 2 single Ballistarii to support.

I'd like to run a more CC-oriented army (maybe with Ryza ?) but I feel terribly uncertain as to what to buy next to up my list to 2000 pts decently. Right now I don't feel like playing at this point level because I must shove all my collection (including my 10 Vigilators SoS on foot) just to hit the 2000 pts. Of course it's not working terribly well against well-thought (or spam) lists. I think I'll stop my Mechanicus purchases until any news for our army (so, Cyraxus), I bought my Bullgryn box to convert for Kataphrons but that's it for now. I hope the Aeldari codex is next so I know what to buy for my Drukhari army too. Playing AdMech and building lists for it confuses me greatly recently.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 18:33:38


Post by: Iago40k


Didnt get them to 3+, i ment 4+. Sorry :-)


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 19:31:51


Post by: Volkmair


I've been running Adeptus Mechanicus in an a series of escalation events at my local store, with the first being 500 points of a Dominus, 10 Vanguard with Plasma and Arc, 5 Fulgerites and a Eradication Dunecrawler and adding 5 Infiltrators and 9 Rangers with arquebus' for 750. While when they actually get to shoot or assault things it tends to go well they just keel over if anything looks at them. The worst being a Repulsor and Redeptor getting the first turn and just killing everything. Is there any point in trying to add some durability with things like either version of Kataphrons are people just going all in on who can alpha strike first?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 20:34:16


Post by: Aaranis


I don't know, on this forum (not only this thread) people either say AdMech is flimsy or that AdMech is resilient. I've yet to see the real resilience, maybe for the repairable vehicles but there's no point repairing a vehicle if it gets destroyed in one go. I simulated with dice rolls how long would it take for my Dunecrawler (with another close by for rerolls of 1s Invul. saves) to get destroyed by a Stormraven. Well it gets destroyed in one go, with the multi-melta and all the lascannons. And once one of my Onagers is destroyed I can pretty much forget about fighting heavy armour because I don't have any more S7+ in my collection. Sometimes my infantry shows a bit of resilience with several 6s on their invulnerable save, but they'll still be too much damaged to be any more useful.

Speaking of Dunecrawlers, I agree the Icarus is not really the wonderweapon some of you guys have been selling earlier. I think it's because post-codex we can use a CP to make our Laser shoot on 2+ against Fliers, but still, it's been doing almost no damage on my two last games. I'd rather have paid 15 pts more to have another Neutron Laser, that thing is reliable (well, as long as it wounds x.x) to deal some damage.

Any advice to run decently an infantry-heavy list in a casual but mean meta ? Ideally I'd like to run two Arquebus teams with Omnispex, one min squad of Arc Rangers, and 20-30 Vanguards, in squads of 7-8, with almost no upgrades save some pistols and CC weapons, and a Caliver here and there. I'd accompany them with three Plasma Destroyers and their Dominus, but I don't know which Forge-World would fit the most. I'd like to try Ryza for the bonus in CC and the plasma stratagem which looks really powerful, but I don't know if it's worth it.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 22:20:43


Post by: MIKEtheMERCILESS


 Aaranis wrote:
I don't know, on this forum (not only this thread) people either say AdMech is flimsy or that AdMech is resilient. I've yet to see the real resilience, maybe for the repairable vehicles but there's no point repairing a vehicle if it gets destroyed in one go. I simulated with dice rolls how long would it take for my Dunecrawler (with another close by for rerolls of 1s Invul. saves) to get destroyed by a Stormraven. Well it gets destroyed in one go, with the multi-melta and all the lascannons. And once one of my Onagers is destroyed I can pretty much forget about fighting heavy armour because I don't have any more S7+ in my collection. Sometimes my infantry shows a bit of resilience with several 6s on their invulnerable save, but they'll still be too much damaged to be any more useful.

Speaking of Dunecrawlers, I agree the Icarus is not really the wonderweapon some of you guys have been selling earlier. I think it's because post-codex we can use a CP to make our Laser shoot on 2+ against Fliers, but still, it's been doing almost no damage on my two last games. I'd rather have paid 15 pts more to have another Neutron Laser, that thing is reliable (well, as long as it wounds x.x) to deal some damage.

Any advice to run decently an infantry-heavy list in a casual but mean meta ? Ideally I'd like to run two Arquebus teams with Omnispex, one min squad of Arc Rangers, and 20-30 Vanguards, in squads of 7-8, with almost no upgrades save some pistols and CC weapons, and a Caliver here and there. I'd accompany them with three Plasma Destroyers and their Dominus, but I don't know which Forge-World would fit the most. I'd like to try Ryza for the bonus in CC and the plasma stratagem which looks really powerful, but I don't know if it's worth it.


What about Mathhammer to include Stygies/Shroudpsalm?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/08 23:35:25


Post by: Yoda79


Agripinaa Ryza Stygies Mars. All valid.

I like an assault 6 man destroyers with 1*2 Melee robots and Cawl and onagers. Moving non stop.

I like Ryza plasma destroyers and vanguard ofensive or dakka line.

Could see breachers in stygia infiltrating and holding relics or obj and vehicle sniping.
And ofc some groups for agripina . Most likely 1*6 breachers 1*6 destroyers you need o check gems and points. Last wound and again reinforses . Most likely I'd would not mix Mars and Ruza .
Both seem like Dakka heavy.

I believe if you take Ryza and since it's costly to field destroyers their role would be to kill any enemy and with a str 9 3 wound gun they should. So it should be 6-9 destroyers 1*10 plasma vanguard omnispex! 1*2-4 fistelans. If you go brigade dragoons and full priests. If you go for two batt then Stygies with snipers breachers arc rangers and priests best of.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 00:58:35


Post by: kinetoscopic


Volkmair wrote:
I've been running Adeptus Mechanicus in an a series of escalation events at my local store, with the first being 500 points of a Dominus, 10 Vanguard with Plasma and Arc, 5 Fulgerites and a Eradication Dunecrawler and adding 5 Infiltrators and 9 Rangers with arquebus' for 750. While when they actually get to shoot or assault things it tends to go well they just keel over if anything looks at them. The worst being a Repulsor and Redeptor getting the first turn and just killing everything. Is there any point in trying to add some durability with things like either version of Kataphrons are people just going all in on who can alpha strike first?


Yeah... unfortunately at T3 there's not much Skitarii can really do in terms of durability. Ad Mech also tends to hurt a little bit at lower point costs because we (used to) have to take a Domius for HQ, and he's just damn expensive. Now, there is the option for the much cheaper (and much less useful Enginseer) but it sounds like you got started with a Getting Started box, which: more power to you that's how I started my army and it's a great collection.

Looking at your army so far, definitely make sure you're always starting with Shroudpsalm and keep the Skitarii in cover as much as possible. The Dominus will start to get better the bigger your army gets as he's a "force multiplier" and his aura starts to be worth more and more the more you surround him with.

As to the Skitarii vs Kataphron question...

Kataphron Breachers (as cheap as you can get them with H. Arc Rifles and Arc Claws) come to 141 points for 3 models, which is 20 points more expensive than an 10 man Vanguard squad with Plasma and an Arc Rifle at 121 points.

Toughness wise, they are definitely beefier. Versus a round of 10 hits from a boltgun the Vanguard will suffer 3 1/3 wounds to the Kataphrons 1 1/10. Vanguard perform marginally better against S3 gunfire but their unit strength also degrades (i.e. they can do less damage) after each round of shots, whereas the Kataphrons don't lose combat efficiency until after their 3rd wound.

Kataphrons (of the Breacher variety) put out quite a bit less damage in the shooting phase. The Heavy Arc rifle will only get an average of 1 hit a turn, meaning your damage output is something is going from something like 10 or so damage before save on T3 - T5 targets with the Vanguard (this is super fuzzy as there's 3 different types of weapons in there) to 2D3 damage from the Breachers.

All that being said, your opponent is probably going to target the Kataphrons with multi-damage weapons. In smaller point games though (which is the only space I would recommend taking Breachers in) targeting your Breachers with Heavy weapons means your Onager gets to fire unharassed.

As your army stands now though, the next time you escalate, you want some Dakkastellans. Or maybe another Onager and a Dragoon if you're feeling like the Monopoly man that week (Dragoons are pricey).



Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 01:08:18


Post by: ph34r


Volkmair wrote:
I've been running Adeptus Mechanicus in an a series of escalation events at my local store, with the first being 500 points of a Dominus, 10 Vanguard with Plasma and Arc, 5 Fulgerites and a Eradication Dunecrawler and adding 5 Infiltrators and 9 Rangers with arquebus' for 750. While when they actually get to shoot or assault things it tends to go well they just keel over if anything looks at them. The worst being a Repulsor and Redeptor getting the first turn and just killing everything. Is there any point in trying to add some durability with things like either version of Kataphrons are people just going all in on who can alpha strike first?


There are many bad units in Adeptus Mechanicus to avoid:

Large units of Skitarii are bad, morale destroys them.
Eradication Beamer on the Dunecrawler is bad. I would rip it off and replace with Neutron Laser.
Kataphrons are just bad, don't take any.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 02:23:13


Post by: Suzuteo


 Aaranis wrote:
I don't know, on this forum (not only this thread) people either say AdMech is flimsy or that AdMech is resilient. I've yet to see the real resilience, maybe for the repairable vehicles but there's no point repairing a vehicle if it gets destroyed in one go. I simulated with dice rolls how long would it take for my Dunecrawler (with another close by for rerolls of 1s Invul. saves) to get destroyed by a Stormraven. Well it gets destroyed in one go, with the multi-melta and all the lascannons. And once one of my Onagers is destroyed I can pretty much forget about fighting heavy armour because I don't have any more S7+ in my collection. Sometimes my infantry shows a bit of resilience with several 6s on their invulnerable save, but they'll still be too much damaged to be any more useful.

Speaking of Dunecrawlers, I agree the Icarus is not really the wonderweapon some of you guys have been selling earlier. I think it's because post-codex we can use a CP to make our Laser shoot on 2+ against Fliers, but still, it's been doing almost no damage on my two last games. I'd rather have paid 15 pts more to have another Neutron Laser, that thing is reliable (well, as long as it wounds x.x) to deal some damage.

Who says AdMech is flimsy? I guess we have flimsy infantry, but our vehicles are incredibly durable: repairs, invulnerable saves on everything, cover in the open, and now -1 to hit past 12".

I think Icarus and Neutron are comparable against flying bricks and Daemon Primarchs and Princes. The former just has advantages in shooting MEQs and below, and it is fantastic against more fragile flyers like Elysians, Eldar, and Tau. I mean, keep in mind that the Icarus Array is a 10-shot main gun on a BS4+ tank body for 130 points.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 03:01:25


Post by: rvd1ofakind


InControl won a small tournament with AdMech yesterday(17 people. He was the only one with no loses):
Mars Batallion
Cawl(warlord)
Enginseer
3x 5 Rangers
5 DakKastelans
2 Icarus Dunecrawlers

Stygies Batallion
2 Enginseers(Autocaduceus)
2x Sniper rangers
5 rangers(omnispex)
6 Dragoons

So yeah, pretty much my list minus the priests(which I said I was disappointed with).


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 03:26:12


Post by: Suzuteo


Interesting. He dropped Heavy Support to pick up the second Battalion with the snipers; it's 279 points, which is two Neutron Crawlers.

I actually think he erred by taking 6x Dragoons over 4x. The wound performance is only marginal, and from my own experiences, six is harder to maneuver.

Also, to answer your prior post, Crawlers and Dragoons are probably our best Power Level options. Dragoons are seriously only 3 PL, which is cheaper than a unit of Vanguard. They should be 4 PL at least.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 03:53:54


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Well, I know. I have a spreadsheet of the best PL units.
Dragoons, Snipers, Corpuscarii, Balistarii. Onagers are just on par on the other hand.
I thinking about going either Spearhead or Outrider. Not sure what's better: Onager+Dragoon+Enginseer or Infiltrators+Dominus

BTW, I played a 6 Dragoon unit and actually it was better beacause I was able to charge 2 units that were rather far away from each other. The huge bases let me maintain coherency. Poped the stratagem and tabled turn one before deepstrike came down


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 03:55:43


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Yoda79 wrote:
Agripinaa Ryza Stygies Mars. All valid.

I like an assault 6 man destroyers with 1*2 Melee robots and Cawl and onagers. Moving non stop.

I like Ryza plasma destroyers and vanguard ofensive or dakka line.

Could see breachers in stygia infiltrating and holding relics or obj and vehicle sniping.
And ofc some groups for agripina . Most likely 1*6 breachers 1*6 destroyers you need o check gems and points. Last wound and again reinforses . Most likely I'd would not mix Mars and Ruza .
Both seem like Dakka heavy.

I believe if you take Ryza and since it's costly to field destroyers their role would be to kill any enemy and with a str 9 3 wound gun they should. So it should be 6-9 destroyers 1*10 plasma vanguard omnispex! 1*2-4 fistelans. If you go brigade dragoons and full priests. If you go for two batt then Stygies with snipers breachers arc rangers and priests best of.

I still firmly believe Lucius is valid solely for the Deep Strike Strategem alone.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 04:44:04


Post by: Suzuteo


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well, I know. I have a spreadsheet of the best PL units.
Dragoons, Snipers, Corpuscarii, Balistarii. Onagers are just on par on the other hand.
I thinking about going either Spearhead or Outrider. Not sure what's better: Onager+Dragoon+Enginseer or Infiltrators+Dominus

BTW, I played a 6 Dragoon unit and actually it was better beacause I was able to charge 2 units that were rather far away from each other. The huge bases let me maintain coherency. Poped the stratagem and tabled turn one before deepstrike came down

Interesting. You multicharge the Dragoons? That can be risky. I usually just try to pile-in or consolidate into multiple units.

It seems the trade-off is that you gain CP efficiency and redundancy in the event of losses, but you risk using a sledgehammer when a mallet would have sufficed.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 07:28:57


Post by: Yoda79


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yoda79 wrote:
Agripinaa Ryza Stygies Mars. All valid.

I like an assault 6 man destroyers with 1*2 Melee robots and Cawl and onagers. Moving non stop.

I like Ryza plasma destroyers and vanguard ofensive or dakka line.

Could see breachers in stygia infiltrating and holding relics or obj and vehicle sniping.
And ofc some groups for agripina . Most likely 1*6 breachers 1*6 destroyers you need o check gems and points. Last wound and again reinforses . Most likely I'd would not mix Mars and Ruza .
Both seem like Dakka heavy.

I believe if you take Ryza and since it's costly to field destroyers their role would be to kill any enemy and with a str 9 3 wound gun they should. So it should be 6-9 destroyers 1*10 plasma vanguard omnispex! 1*2-4 fistelans. If you go brigade dragoons and full priests. If you go for two batt then Stygies with snipers breachers arc rangers and priests best of.

I still firmly believe Lucius is valid solely for the Deep Strike Strategem alone.


Sure it is but so far I don't use Lucius. Mainly cause in my lists I find the -1 important and I prefer infiltration for my priests. So Lucius would be nice for strategies onmlonger battles when you most likely wanna deep strike range unites and make more tactical decisions. With heavy Mars I don't need more dakka I want a more guaranteed charge. I don't know what plan would benefit from Lucius maybe deep striking destroyers or Robots. Even so I strongly suggest to use deep strike till turn two max. The points you invest better come soon.

As for in controls plan. It's a simple max robot max dragoon. Obviously if you take 5 robots not so many options after than. And dragoon spam is cheap.
I believe he is also testing not that it's bad . He sure utilise our strengths. Big units to take advantage of the gems and our best units.
He has a firm list I prefer a bit smaller units like 3-4 still able to utilize gems but have also good options.
3 neutronagers can anti tank great 10 stugia priests can be a force different from dragoons and still have those Robots and dragoon choise.
Most likely he LL have better results vs specific lists but I want a more versatile list. I don't like that one dimensional play if you can call it that.
Still a v v adeptus mechanicus lists that will definitely put some hurt. And I don't have 6 dragoons atm and I don't play more than 4 robots cause they are easy to overcome. While neutronager is the best unit in ad mech pure damge able to heal etc. And to be honest before codex switching Robots for onagers was the way to go when I had 5 onagers in my list never lost one. Wrath of mars is better but ...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So yes in controls list seems the way to go atm personally I prefer

3 neutronager
4 Robots
10 staff priests
3-4 dragoons. Works better for me than 6 robots 6 dragoons. It gives me options I can't seem to get in any game with Robot spam.

Snipers I always use.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 08:24:47


Post by: rvd1ofakind


More info from InControl:
Dragoons and DakKastelans were the obvious stars of the show
The re-roll artifact did nothing in all 3 games.
Snipers didn't do much wounds wise but they ruined a lot of deployments


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 08:29:16


Post by: Suzuteo


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
More info from InControl:
Dragoons and DakKastelans were the obvious stars of the show
The re-roll artifact did nothing in all 3 games.
Snipers didn't do much wounds wise but they ruined a lot of deployments

Yes, but I would temper the enthusiasm. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. I am wary of 6 Kastelans and 6 Dragoons, even though I think every army needs a 4x unit of each. However, I am surprised he got away with so few Crawlers. I definitely would want two more.

The re-roll artifact? You mean the Auto-caduceus? I think it is useful for possibility of burst-healing a unit back to full wounds.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 09:48:19


Post by: Iago40k


Suzuteo wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
More info from InControl:
Dragoons and DakKastelans were the obvious stars of the show
The re-roll artifact did nothing in all 3 games.
Snipers didn't do much wounds wise but they ruined a lot of deployments

Yes, but I would temper the enthusiasm. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. I am wary of 6 Kastelans and 6 Dragoons, even though I think every army needs a 4x unit of each. However, I am surprised he got away with so few Crawlers. I definitely would want two more.

The re-roll artifact? You mean the Auto-caduceus? I think it is useful for possibility of burst-healing a unit back to full wounds.

Same here. I think 4 dakkstelans are the way to go. When it comes to Dragoons I wouldnt want to put too many into 1 unit. An infiltrating unit of 4 seems to be the sweet spot again.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 09:48:45


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Yeah, sorry. Missed the word "repairing".
He said that to use it, you need:
the dude with it to be next to the dude you need repairing
roll poorly on the repair

And that happens so rarelly, that the artifact seems useless


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 11:07:40


Post by: Yoda79


I use +1 cp or gain cp s on 6 depending on my lists. The healing one seems not so important for me unless I use a knight.
I said many times each player should identify his own play twirks.
I never heard much chance with convo and conclave in control used. And though I'm sure 6 robots and 6 dragoons are a force to be feared and gems utilise better for me versatile armies are my favorite. I wanna have more options and I don't believe there is so much difference in the results we are looking for. Same troop numbers same snipers rest stock almost same onagers .

Now if he prefers 5 robots and I like one more onager or if someone finds his dragoons better and splitting behind enemy lines while I want priests for different targets is not such a big deal. The basics are set. Somewhere around 1-3 detachments 7-12 cp number of troops and min max options according to style.

I m glad he had a good result in his tour and we got a recent measure on the new codex.
Even if you decide to play Ryza heavy destroyers you can have good results ifmlayed properly. A d6 spam str 9 -3 3 wounds can be played effctive


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 12:24:11


Post by: Octovol


Had a casual first run out with the admech codex against a friends AM army, low points around 1000 each, I had:

Stygies batallion
2 * TPD with eradication rays and serpenta
1 * 5 sniper vanguard
1 * 5 plasma vanguard
1 * 5 arc vanguard

2 * dakastellans
2 * Neutronagers

he had:

2 * 3 lascannon heavy weapons teams
1 * 10 elysian multi melta
1 * 10 elysian plasma
3 * 10 infantry
1 * officer (1 order)
1 * officer (2 orders)
1 * commander
1 * pask
1 * vendetta with all lascannons and heavy bolters

I paid 1cp to infiltrate my plasma vanguard into cover down one flank where i'd deployed my robots and 1 onager with tpd. They took out one of the heavy weapons teams then died in his first turn. but in discussions afterwards he noted that if that squad didnt have plasma he would have ignored it. So even though it's not doing a huge amount of damage the threat is enough for people to have to deal with them. Same story with snipers, i did a couple of wounds in my first round but he then targeted them because guard needs those officers.

Essentially the result being he threw the towel in on his 3rd shooting round as i had objectives and all he had left were a pask that could only hit on 6s a smattering of infantry and all his officers. I used the robots mainly to take out the elysians that dropped in under the 12" range as well as the stubbers on my onagers. My first round I took 9 wounds off pask with a single volley from one neutronager, which rendered him useless for the rest of the game. The other neutronager picked away the vendetta, i doctrina'd it to 2+ on the first turn and dropped it to a 11 wounds and finished it off by the third with support from double shot robots. By the 3rd round he'd not managed a single wound off any of my robots or onagers or either of the TPD. which is all i had left by that point. The troops had done their job and died instead of my tanks and robots. But he would have ignored them if they didn't have special weapons.

The -1 to hit against a guard army is just so powerful, hitting on 5s for just about everything meant the heavy weapons teams did nothing, same for the vendetta and pask's 2+ bs did him no good after being dropped to lowest wound bracket.

I used the deep strike interupt to shoot an elysian squad when it landed with my plasma vanguard, only managed to drop 3 of them, wouldnt say it's mega useful because our infantry doesn't hit that hard but bit by bit weathering away at the squads they all eventually evaporated.

I honestly thought he was gonna have too many bodies for me to get through but the two robots did most of the heavy lifting there along with the heavy stubbers and a few radium carbines.

Going forward I think i'd add another 2 robots and add a bunch of dragoons as yet again i could only take the objectives i'd strategically placed in my own deployment.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 12:35:37


Post by: Yoda79


Well the effectiveness of the robots increase when Cawl joins and wrath of mars kicks in. In lower point games destroyers can be a force to help close the gap between many shots from robots bs 4+ and high str guns.

So that said good games. One group of 3+ dragoons will perform better with inf than vanguard's stock vanguard's can defend while destroyers are superb for infoslave gem. Use destroyers than more robots at this point lvl till 1500. It can sub and onager and robot . If you going past 1500 . Mars Cawl reroll is beyond


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 12:48:40


Post by: Octovol


I have 5 ironstrider boxes i'm building atm. At least 3 of them will be dragoons. but I may build the last two as balistarii for 2+ flyer lascannon/autocannon bombard. Eventually i'd like 2 *3 dragoons and 1 *3 balistarii but thats a lot of points. 3 neutronagers would be nice too. balancing the points is the challenge.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 13:08:04


Post by: Wayniac


Think i'm going to do something like this after some thought, not too cheesey but not too awful (I hope!), since people around me aren't really powergamers.

Spoiler:

++ Spearhead Detachment ++
Forgeworld: Mars

+ HQ +
Cawl
Enginseer

+ TROOPS +
3x Destroyers w/Plasma, Flamer
3x Destroyers w/Plasma, Flamer

+ ELITE +
Datasmith
5x Infiltraotrs w/Flechette and Taser

+ HEAVY SUPPORT +
Dunecrawler w/Neutron Laser
Dunecrawler w/Neutron Laser
2x Dakkastellans
2x Dakkastellans

++ Outrider Detachment ++
Forgeworld: Stygies VIII

+ HQ +
Enginseer

+ TROOPS +
5x Rangers w/2 Arquebus, Alpha w/Arc Pistol, Maul

+ FAST ATTACK +
Sydonian Dragoon
Sydonian Dragoon
Sydonian Dragoon


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 15:08:37


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


Anyone else struggling to find a build they like or is it just me?

Also, anyone notice the big point jump for Scions? Clever, GW. Nearly doubling the cost of Plasma guns for them.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 15:10:50


Post by: Silentz


 Marius Xerxes wrote:
Anyone thought about throwing in a Tallarn detachment of some kind?

With mobility (outside of dragoons) being an issue, their ability to show up on any board edge with 3 units (plus two more with relic) seems like it could be useful.

I am strongly considering it. In fact I was googling "28mm desert warrior heads" today!

My admech have desert-style basing anyway, and I like the idea of adding some desert warriors - maybe with Scout Sentinels and a Leman Russ or two. I think I would find some Jerry Cans to stick on the tanks as if they were carrying lots of additional water. Wait this is tactica not painting!

The problem is... to use Ambush I'd want to bring a Batallion so it pays for itself in CP. I need my AdMech CP for AdMech stratagems! Which all of a sudden means 700 points+.

So it would be something like...

Tallarn Batallion:
Company Commander
Tank Commander in Leman Russ
3 Infantry Squads (could do conscripts i guess, but would need commisars as well)
3 lascannon scout sentinels
2 Leman Russ

Mars Batallion:
Cawl
Enginseer
rangers with 2 snipers
2 vanguard squads
datasmith
3 dakkastelans
icarus onager


Hm... that's quite lot of T3 infantry!


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 15:16:34


Post by: Yoda79


For Wayniac

You LL need a lot more cp s.

Move snipers on Mars and make it a battalion.
Make Robots one unit.

Remove inf. Pick one more onager and make stygies spearhead with 1*3 unit dragoons and 3 onagers.
More or less same list with no infiltrators but with a good unit of dragoons. 7 cp infiltrate dragoons wrath of mars on Robots or use elimination volley on destroyers with Cawl rerolls for 3d6 overcharged plasma hitting both robots and one unit destroyers on 3+ vs air 4+. Next step make destroyers one unit as well add one more sniper unit! Nice list!

Tip destroyers and rangers will have to screen for your army especially Robots.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 16:27:30


Post by: Wayniac


Yoda79 wrote:
For Wayniac

You LL need a lot more cp s.

Move snipers on Mars and make it a battalion.
Make Robots one unit.

Remove inf. Pick one more onager and make stygies spearhead with 1*3 unit dragoons and 3 onagers.
More or less same list with no infiltrators but with a good unit of dragoons. 7 cp infiltrate dragoons wrath of mars on Robots or use elimination volley on destroyers with Cawl rerolls for 3d6 overcharged plasma hitting both robots and one unit destroyers on 3+ vs air 4+. Next step make destroyers one unit as well add one more sniper unit! Nice list!

Tip destroyers and rangers will have to screen for your army especially Robots.


Hmm I haven't really focused on CPs that much in list building, that seems to be a mistake. I'll see what I can do to rework.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 16:40:15


Post by: Volkmair


 ph34r wrote:
There are many bad units in Adeptus Mechanicus to avoid:

Large units of Skitarii are bad, morale destroys them.
Eradication Beamer on the Dunecrawler is bad. I would rip it off and replace with Neutron Laser.
Kataphrons are just bad, don't take any.
To be honest I've found the Eradication Beamer fine, but I can see it being underwhelming if you are after a dedicated role rather than a ok against most things gun. Is the issue with morale being that as you are capped at units of 10 that you don't have the numbers to soak any bad morale rolls as 8 isn't awful as far as leadership goes?



Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 16:49:47


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


Wayniac wrote:
Yoda79 wrote:
For Wayniac

You LL need a lot more cp s.

Move snipers on Mars and make it a battalion.
Make Robots one unit.

Remove inf. Pick one more onager and make stygies spearhead with 1*3 unit dragoons and 3 onagers.
More or less same list with no infiltrators but with a good unit of dragoons. 7 cp infiltrate dragoons wrath of mars on Robots or use elimination volley on destroyers with Cawl rerolls for 3d6 overcharged plasma hitting both robots and one unit destroyers on 3+ vs air 4+. Next step make destroyers one unit as well add one more sniper unit! Nice list!

Tip destroyers and rangers will have to screen for your army especially Robots.


Hmm I haven't really focused on CPs that much in list building, that seems to be a mistake. I'll see what I can do to rework.


You will want enough to be able to use Wrath a few times and Binharic once, for sure. I would say 7-9 CP is where we want to be, at least - which is at least one Battalion and one other detachment.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 17:19:11


Post by: Wayniac


 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
Yoda79 wrote:
For Wayniac

You LL need a lot more cp s.

Move snipers on Mars and make it a battalion.
Make Robots one unit.

Remove inf. Pick one more onager and make stygies spearhead with 1*3 unit dragoons and 3 onagers.
More or less same list with no infiltrators but with a good unit of dragoons. 7 cp infiltrate dragoons wrath of mars on Robots or use elimination volley on destroyers with Cawl rerolls for 3d6 overcharged plasma hitting both robots and one unit destroyers on 3+ vs air 4+. Next step make destroyers one unit as well add one more sniper unit! Nice list!

Tip destroyers and rangers will have to screen for your army especially Robots.


Hmm I haven't really focused on CPs that much in list building, that seems to be a mistake. I'll see what I can do to rework.


You will want enough to be able to use Wrath a few times and Binharic once, for sure. I would say 7-9 CP is where we want to be, at least - which is at least one Battalion and one other detachment.


Sounds good. I can easily rework what I have (I really want to field the 6 destroyers because I have them and they look really cool) into a Battalion + a Spearhead. That should be a start.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 17:21:56


Post by: Wulfey


Something to consider is that even the smallest AM side detachment can add a lot of CP. If you make one of the AM characters your warlord you can give him the 5+ to get a CP when your enemy uses a strategem relic and the 5+ to get a CP for every CP you spend warlord trait (this also comes with 1 free reroll during the battle). You give up Cawl's 9" aura for a 6" aura, but the relic/WLtrait is at least 4 extra CP over 5 turns. EDIT: for instance, in my list I am going to have one of my 40 point elysian commanders be my WL and keep him off the board until turn 3. But since he exists, I get the 5+ whenever either player uses a strategem.

On InControl's list, I do think it is the essentially the best pure AM list. Only change I would make would be splitting the dragoons into 3s to ensure that every dragoon that makes combat can always swing. A unit of 3 can always full swing since the rear two can just base to base the 1 that is combat and be "within 1" of a friendly model in base". But that 6 stack of dragoons is a massive donkey punch if you get first turn and nail the infilitrate. I really need a third dragoon bad.

EDIT2: on the subject of destroyers, for 100 points you can buy a bunker. You can then put the destroyers in the bunker for the first turn and they are effectively invincible. This guarantees you get to shoot with all your destroyers even if you get second turn. If you are going to put a knight titan's worth of points into a stack of 4+ save models it may be worth beefing them up with a bunker. You will have to get them out to get the benefit of auras, but that beats losing them all to simple bolter/autocannon fire on turn 1.

EDIT3: Yeah, i used to run Greyfax specifically for her LD10 bubble. The new codex and my need for drop troops has taken so many points that I can't run her anymore. The 3 detachments thing in ITC also hinders my ability to splash in inquisitors.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 17:24:58


Post by: kinetoscopic


Wulfey wrote:
Something to consider is that even the smallest AM side detachment can add a lot of CP. If you make one of the AM characters your warlord you can give him the 5+ to get a CP when your enemy uses a strategem relic and the 5+ to get a CP for every CP you spend warlord trait (this also comes with 1 free reroll during the battle). You give up Cawl's 9" aura for a 6" aura, but the relic/WLtrait is at least 4 extra CP over 5 turns.


I've even taken a Supreme Command Detachment of Inquisitors (Greyfax, Coteaz and one generic) to get a Psychic phase and that extra CP.

I don't have the books here, but I'm pretty sure they gave out their Ld characteristics in a 6" bubble too.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 18:05:19


Post by: Aaranis


em_en_oh_pee wrote:Anyone else struggling to find a build they like or is it just me?

Also, anyone notice the big point jump for Scions? Clever, GW. Nearly doubling the cost of Plasma guns for them.

Yes, I'm greatly confused as to how to theme my army for now. I think it has to do with the fact people prefer 2000 pts games at my store so I have to fit everything in my collection to have those points, but it kinda kills the choices and synergies I can make. It's hard for me to leave some units behind just because of this, even if they're not worth it on the list (like my lone Dragoon). I think I'll just play 1500 pts games from now on, even if that gets me less games at least I'd have a list that looks decent and won't be drown in enemy armour with no answer to them.

It was fair to up the price for Plasma, it was too cheap for what it did. I play 2 plasma and 2 meltas in my Command Squad and it doesn't change anything for me. Spam of powerful stuff at great scale will always be nerfed from now on, that's one of the reasons I love variety a bit in my lists.

I'd really like to try Ryza for the plasma Destroyers. I'll test it in a 1500 pts game as soon as I've build my Bullgryn Kataphrons.

Anyone sees a use for cheapo Breachers ? My biggest issue is their low accuracy, I don't trust most single shot weapons, especially on 4+ models, and the Heavy Arc Rifle looks designed for heavy infantry rather than destroying Vehicles. It would've been nice if they'd made the Arc weaponry something like "Always wound Vehicles on 4+" or something, with a small price hike of course. Cheapest Breachers are around 140 pts for three 3W T5 3+(2+ in cover)/6++ models, with a rather good morale, but I'd rather invest in two 6-7 man squads of Vanguards with special weapons.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 18:13:25


Post by: Suzuteo


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Yeah, sorry. Missed the word "repairing".
He said that to use it, you need:
the dude with it to be next to the dude you need repairing
roll poorly on the repair

And that happens so rarelly, that the artifact seems useless

The Autocaduceus pretty much lets you reroll D3 results of 1s, so 33% chance to reroll. Outcome is improved by 16.67%, which is not bad.

But yeah, what would be the alternative?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Anyone else struggling to find a build they like or is it just me?

Also, anyone notice the big point jump for Scions? Clever, GW. Nearly doubling the cost of Plasma guns for them.

I hope the profile carries over for Elysians. But yeah, plasma is still good, just not broken.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 18:16:39


Post by: Wulfey


Breachers are just junk in 2000 ITC tuned list games. They have no role. They aren't that tough for their points and their damage output is pretty bad for their points. At 2000 points you can get in too many strong combos that make the inefficiency of the breachers too harsh.

If you are playing fluffy mono-book lists at 1500 I think they have a role. Especially if the board size is smaller. Breachers only really get their value if there are transports to shoot at and if they can get a charge on a transport.

THe basic problem of breachers is that their weapon profile is in a bad place. They lack the volume of fire of Kastelons or the high str of Onagers. For the breacher to really start kicking ass you need your opponent to bring T6 vehicles.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 18:17:37


Post by: Aaranis


Suzuteo wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Yeah, sorry. Missed the word "repairing".
He said that to use it, you need:
the dude with it to be next to the dude you need repairing
roll poorly on the repair

And that happens so rarelly, that the artifact seems useless

The Autocaduceus pretty much lets you reroll D3 results of 1s, so 33% chance to reroll. Outcome is improved by 16.67%, which is not bad.

But yeah, what would be the alternative?

Only the Autocaduceus is auto-take to me, I'd go for the Raiment of the Technomartyr if I'd really want to take something else. If running Graia the Techno-Mite would be my 1st choice too.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 18:19:15


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Just because of how bad the repair artifact is, I'm still leaning to the OmniMask. It's like cawl in Fight phase... Kinda :p

Also seriously, I really feel that Autocaduceus is terrible. I mean, it's just 0-2 wounds per game. Like, how's that an "autotake"
Technomartyr gives you 1 hit every 36 overwatch attacks. That is also terrible.

For me the choice is:
OmniMask
Solar Flare(but you have to take Lucius)
Xi-Lexum(but you have to take Agripinaa)
Techno-Mitre(but you have to take Graia)

Leaving me with only 1 choice pretty much.

There is something to be said about: Anzion's bonus D6 attacks and the Ryza weapon. But meh...


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 19:10:42


Post by: Yoda79


Well all comes down. On the lists you decide to play.

All units got some role. I great example is balistarii and onagers.

Same goes for vanguard and brechers etc.

When you drop in points or you need to make a detachments you just utilise more units. If you play Monopoly detachment lists on few points a tankish unit like breachers can win a relic easily.
You believe like me the sweet point of antitank is 3 neutronagers.
Ok but robots and 2 onagers fill the slots . You can sub with 2 stygia lascannons easily. Maybe not same but close enough role wise.

If you need to increase durability and you already filled all slots yes breachers can be really tough. Basic 3+ with shroud 2+ and with gem +1 saves +1 attack can win a game.

Point wise 141 points =onager. No way I'd prefer brechers but it's troop vs heavy. There is the really issue.

And I can say this to be valid also for inflirators that I consider overpriced but have a role especially for single Mars detachments . You take a Mars brigade then you take infiltrators.

Now all these are valid as long as we talk max 1850 points semi competitive.
Cause as many mentioned.

Cawl 6 robots with an imperium soup Greyfax guard relic and gems for extra cp even Creed for more more cp etc etc we going this talk a far different talk.

As for 2k points. So many say we re different people cause we only interested for competitive games bla bla.
This is pathetic attitude. From all aspect. When someone builds a big list of 2k he will have a combo like it or not. Might not be optimisez might not have knights for friendly games or dunno what but even the. Most simple of lists will have something. Even if it has a spam troops it's. Plan. We to explain s much as possible to make all players have fun. Not go and play a game and see you become a target practice. And 8th edition can finish in turn one.
Don't take Cawl ok. Use dragoon 1*1 and 1*1 for screener and fluff I'm with you. But it's one thing to know how to utilise unite effectively and another if you will have the units or plan to buy bla bla .

So if you gonna invest heavy in destroyers plasma . Then invest in Mars Ryza Agripinaa. There is your plan.
Breachers stygia Graia mars. Etc

I don't say this to be a smart man. Merelly pinpoint the obvious. E said 100 times adeptus mechanicus in 8th requires some focus.

Destroyers cost you 216 points either use them with a bunker or with Cawl or tpd but will be effective if taken 1*6. Why better buff deploy gem usage etc. Provide screener hide them plce them so you move and shoot to start off enemy range etc

Why cuss it's not your best unit and if you go play like they re robots and enemy kills 216 point of unit with lasguns you LL cry.

Just try to make it work and present a plan and how you believe it will work. Just putting a list won't do nothing



Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 21:22:24


Post by: WrentheFaceless


All of our relics suck, all of them.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 21:28:46


Post by: Wulfey


 WrentheFaceless wrote:
All of our relics suck, all of them.


Seriously. They are terrible. Here are 4 game changing relics from AM, they are miles ahead of anything admech get. If you want to play competitively, why not make sure your side battalion has Kurov's Aquila? Yeah AM warlords are squishy, but they can be hidden out of LOS pretty easy.

Laurels of Command: on a 4+ you can give a second order to the same unit
Kurov's Aquila: on a 5+ you get a CP every time opponent uses a strategem (I am going to run this, it feels mandatory)
Dagger of Tu'Sakh: outflank for character and one infantry squad
Relic of Lost Cadia: reroll 1s hit/wound within 12" of bearer for 1 turn, if against chaos you get Roboute Guilliman aura [this is flatly OP and will keep chaos off top tables in 6 game GTs]


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 21:42:25


Post by: ph34r


Played a 2000 point game last weekend. Lists were:

IRON WARRIORS
Daemon Prince, wings, warptime
warpsmith
foot lord
raptor lord
6 raptors, 2 plas, sgt combi-plas
5 marines, lascannon
5 havocs, 2 lascannon
5 havocs, 2 lascannon
5 havocs, 2 lascannon
5 havocs, 4 heavy bolters
~10-12 cultists
~10-12 cultists
3 obliterators
3 obliterators
dreadnought with 2x lascannon and missile
forgefiend with hades autocannons and plasma maw
maulerfiend with tendrils

vs

MARS
Cawl 250
Enginseer 52
5 Rangers 40
5 Rangers 40
5 Rangers 40
6 robots 660
Neutron onager 140
Neutron onager 140

Elysian commander 40
Elysian commander 40
Elysian command squad 56
Elysian command squad 56
Elysian SWS 51
Elysian SWS 51
Eversor 70

Cadian commander, warlord, regain a CP you spend on a 5+, gain 1 CP on a 5+ when enemy uses stratagem 30
Cadian Earthshaker battery 80
Cadian Earthshaker battery 80
Cadian Earthshaker battery 80



Iron Warriors finished deploying first, I failed to seize, Iron Warriors went first, they killed a couple robots and got first blood from some Rangers. Warptime failed to cast leaving the Maulerfiend in the open to get killed the next turn by robots and Neutrons. Mechanicus shooting turn 1.5 destroyed a large amount of the Iron Warriors army, deep striking Elysians prevented Obliterators and Raptors from having good places to enter. The Iron Warriors player forgot to deep strike half of his Obliterators and all his Raptors turn 1, which hurt him.

After starting to lose the shooting war, Iron Warriors were still ahead 3-0 or 3-1 on victory points as it was Maelstrom of war, so they backed up away from the stationary robots. Objective cards were more in my favor near the end of the game and I ended up getting a couple points to bring me back in line with the Chaos player's points, at which point he was stuck with bad cards and not enough objectives controlled to get more from the mission. Chaos conceded turn 3.

Spoiler:


Spoiler:


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 21:59:41


Post by: Wulfey


That is a savage list ph34r. How would you rate the cadian heavy artillery battery in terms of damage output? Relative to the ONagers?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 22:04:56


Post by: Aaranis


Alright, did anyone gave a chance to an Agripinaa army with a fair share of Kataphrons ? Because I notice a good way to play them would be with their relic, the Eye of Laxum, which allows the bearer to designate an enemy vehicle within 18" so that your whole Forge-World can reroll 1s to Wound in the shooting phase, an reroll all failed to Wound if it's a Chaos vehicle. It pairs well with Destroyers, but even better with Breachers with heavy Arc rifles. Suddenly against Chaos all your Arc weaponry becomes a lot more interesting, less so against another faction, but my meta has its fair share of Chaos players. How many times did I roll a one or two with my Neutron Laser ? I'm heavily considering this.

It's hard to trade the protection of the Stygies VIII dogma for the bonus in CC and plasma-madness (Plasmadness ?) of Ryza or the Kataphron-friendly stratagem of Agripinaa though, but I think if I want to play a more agressive playstyle I'll have to make amends. I used to win games before the codex too after all.

One unit of 6 Destroyers looks dangerous to me, either for my opponent or for me. It's hard to get it all in cover and Morale might start to be an issue (losing a 70 pts model in Morale hurts), but that would save me some CPs for sure. I thought about two units of three at maximum for a bit of safety, but I'll think about it after I try out the Destroyers a few times.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 22:10:49


Post by: WrentheFaceless


Destroyers arent worth it, Kastellans serve the same role and do it better.

Kataphrons are in a bad place right now, too expensive and too fragile


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 22:13:31


Post by: ph34r


Wulfey wrote:
That is a savage list ph34r. How would you rate the cadian heavy artillery battery in terms of damage output? Relative to the ONagers?
Onagers have much much more reliable damage, what with 3+ to hit reroll with Cawl, vs the Earthshakers having only 4+ to hit rerolling 1s.
-4 AP instead of -2, d6 damage minimum 3 instead of d3.

Then again Earthshakers are 80 and Onagers cost a full 75% more at 140.
The Earthshakers were good, maybe not necessary to have 3. Basically I used them at the end of each turn to kill things I was hoping my other units would kill, which they had failed to manage. They are unreliable themselves, but by using 3 of them they managed to fix SOMETHING each turn. Might go down to 2 in the future.

Having Indirect Fire is no joke though. Robots are powerful but super stationary. When the Iron Warriors backed up away from 36", the only things I had to get me back in the game from being down 2 victory points were my Earthshakers and Elysians. Earthshakers can reach things that are bubble-wrapped off and safe from Deep Strike.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 22:57:36


Post by: gendoikari87


here's a question how does the regaining CP thing work? if you have both? do you roll independently? can you potentially get back two for one?


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 23:02:41


Post by: ph34r


gendoikari87 wrote:
here's a question how does the regaining CP thing work? if you have both? do you roll independently? can you potentially get back two for one?

One only works on yourself using a stratagem, one only works on your enemy using a stratagem. There is no overlap possible.

That said, I found that warlord trait and relic to be extremely useful. I gained back 4 or 5 command points maybe.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 23:07:34


Post by: gendoikari87


 ph34r wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
here's a question how does the regaining CP thing work? if you have both? do you roll independently? can you potentially get back two for one?

One only works on yourself using a stratagem, one only works on your enemy using a stratagem. There is no overlap possible.

That said, I found that warlord trait and relic to be extremely useful. I gained back 4 or 5 command points maybe.


my codex reads you or your opponent. and i don't remember it being in the faq.

Once per battle, you can re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll or damage roll made for your Warlord. In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you or your opponent use a Stratagem; on a 6, you gain a Command Point


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 23:11:59


Post by: Suzuteo


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Just because of how bad the repair artifact is, I'm still leaning to the OmniMask. It's like cawl in Fight phase... Kinda :p

Also seriously, I really feel that Autocaduceus is terrible. I mean, it's just 0-2 wounds per game. Like, how's that an "autotake"
Technomartyr gives you 1 hit every 36 overwatch attacks. That is also terrible.

For me the choice is:
OmniMask
Solar Flare(but you have to take Lucius)
Xi-Lexum(but you have to take Agripinaa)
Techno-Mitre(but you have to take Graia)

Leaving me with only 1 choice pretty much.

There is something to be said about: Anzion's bonus D6 attacks and the Ryza weapon. But meh...

I would imagine Raiment is the second choice, actually. As for weapons, Pseudogenetor is the only one that seems to be decent, mostly because it's free additional attacks.

Mask is okay (given it's practically reroll 1s), but in a competitive list, you will want your HQs near your shooting units to repair, not out in the field with the screen.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 23:17:09


Post by: ph34r


gendoikari87 wrote:
Once per battle, you can re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll or damage roll made for your Warlord. In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you or your opponent use a Stratagem; on a 6, you gain a Command Point
My bad, I was using pre-release rules summaries. I must have got it wrong.

EDIT: No, I was right?



Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/09 23:33:15


Post by: Wulfey


Yeah.

You roll a die for every CP you spend.
You roll one die for every time your opponent uses a Strategem (no matter how many CP).


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/10 00:22:09


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


 ph34r wrote:

MARS
Cawl 250
Enginseer 52
5 Rangers 40
5 Rangers 40
5 Rangers 40
6 robots 660
Neutron onager 140
Neutron onager 140

Elysian commander 40
Elysian commander 40
Elysian command squad 56
Elysian command squad 56
Elysian SWS 51
Elysian SWS 51
Eversor 70

Cadian commander, warlord, regain a CP you spend on a 5+, gain 1 CP on a 5+ when enemy uses stratagem 30
Cadian Earthshaker battery 80
Cadian Earthshaker battery 80
Cadian Earthshaker battery 80



Jesus... Absolutely Savage list man. I swear, I might build this. Though I might skip the Eversor for some Conscripts and a Commissar maybe.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/10 00:45:52


Post by: Wulfey


Elysian sniper teams don't need a commisar and are 3.5 points per wound. They are 3 5 point 'models' that each have 2 wounds and 1 sniper rifle a piece. Contrast what you get:

60 points of conscripts:
20 wounds at LD4, hits on 5+, order problems

63 points of Elysian snipers:
18 wounds only fails morale if 2 bases die and you roll a 6, hits on a 3+, has a sniper rifle, always gets orders, and they are 3 different deep striking units so harder to tie them all up and easier to overkill, but more vulnerable to autocannons

I am currently painting up this list. I just can't figure out how to proxy those damn Cadian Earthshakers. I keep looking at my knight battlecannons like there has to be a way. And I am not totally sold on the arquebuses, but if I am already this deep into sniper rifles (18), might as well make it so character in LOS are well and truly dead.

Spoiler:

Enginseer 52
Cawl 250
Dakkastan 660
2x Neutron 140
3x Rangers 40 25 arquebus
2x Dragoons 68 68

ELY Vanguard 1
2x ElyCom 40 5 plasma pistol
2x ComSquad 28 28 4x plasma rifle
3x Ely Snipers 15 6

ELY Vanguard 2
1x ElyCom 40 1 bolt rifle, Warlord, 5+ CP refund, 5+ to get CP on opponent strategem use relic
1x ComSquad 28 28 4x plasma rifle
3x Ely Snipers 15 6



Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/10 01:18:41


Post by: Marius Xerxes


 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Anyone else struggling to find a build they like or is it just me?

Also, anyone notice the big point jump for Scions? Clever, GW. Nearly doubling the cost of Plasma guns for them.


Yeah I'm having that issue as well. I just never really feel satisfied with what I put together.

Scions, and indeed all BS3+ models got a bit of a price hike. Though I think the costs are fair for what you are still getting.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/10 02:13:10


Post by: ph34r


Wulfey wrote:
I am currently painting up this list. I just can't figure out how to proxy those damn Cadian Earthshakers.

If you want to build some "ph34r pattern earthshakers", the recipie and result is as follows:

Dunecrawler Legs $9.00:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/362123803924

Dunecrawler Abdomen $2.50:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/352170024894

Quantum Gothic Quantum Cannon $22.00:
http://www.quantumgothicwars.com/tabletop-gaming-scenery/quantum-cannon

130mm round base $7.50:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/263210127263

Total cost: $41.00

Result:



Build the Dunecrawler legs like normal, and then cut off the entirety of the hemisphere on top so you have a flat surface.
I like to then also cut just the claw part off of each foot and reposition them so they are more splayed out to the side, instead of vertical like a walking Crawler.

I also used magnets to let the cannon move around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Jesus... Absolutely Savage list man. I swear, I might build this. Though I might skip the Eversor for some Conscripts and a Commissar maybe.

Thanks man. And because I can't resist showing off my conversion (painting is WIP) here is my 3 armed, Adeptus Mechanicus Assassin. Inspired somewhat by this image of,

Korial Zeth, Dark Mechanicus Assassin from the Horus Hersey:
Spoiler:

And my conversion:
Spoiler:


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/10 02:42:56


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Suzuteo wrote:

I would imagine Raiment is the second choice, actually. As for weapons, Pseudogenetor is the only one that seems to be decent, mostly because it's free additional attacks.

Mask is okay (given it's practically reroll 1s), but in a competitive list, you will want your HQs near your shooting units to repair, not out in the field with the screen.


But dude. It is ONE HIT(still need to wound, etc) every 36 overwatch shots. How is that any good? Like, at all.

And we usually have 3-4 repair HQs. When will you ever have 3-4 different damaged vehicles at the same time? Never, if your opponent is competant. He knows if he starts on something, he has to kill it due to the repair mechanic. Sure, 2 could be damaged at the same time - one artilery and one screen piece(Dragoon). But 3? Very very rarelly. And why re-roll 1s? We hit on 3+. We're not popping the +hit stratagem every time we fight.


Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us @ 2017/10/10 03:05:45


Post by: Suzuteo


Yeah, I get your point.

I am actually beginning to like this idea of a Guard Warlord with Kurov's Aquila and Grand Strategist trait; the rest of the army can be AdMech in Outrider and Spearhead detachments. What's the cheapest option for CP recycling?