Yeah 9 and then 3x3. Needless to say my poor mek guns did not last long Add to that 4 plasma bot, 3 onagers and bunch of other stuff and basically on my T1 I gave up having lost all mek guns, 12/15 lootas, whole ton of grots(grot screen for lootas) and all I did was 4 wounds to onager despite SSAG firing twice.
don't know about repairing...He never needed it really as his firepower crippled my army. I would have been left weathering 1 more round and then try to bumrush him with boyz and hope something is left. Unlikely to work and already down in vp's and super hard to score anything(draw 2, opponent decides what you try. I had to defend objectives on his quarter etc...)
I guess that's an idea. If you're running nothing but kataphrons as your "infantry" and only run vehicles, bots, and striders, you're essentially running a tank list. Except a lot of your vehicles can climb stairs, have obsec, invulns, and can actually somewhat fight in CQC. At that point if you have enough they could possibly pull some fire off the robots and Dragoons?
MrMoustaffa wrote: I guess that's an idea. If you're running nothing but kataphrons as your "infantry" and only run vehicles, bots, and striders, you're essentially running a tank list. Except a lot of your vehicles can climb stairs, have obsec, invulns, and can actually somewhat fight in CQC. At that point if you have enough they could possibly pull some fire off the robots and Dragoons?
plus with this much of multiwound models there is no chance that your opponent will leave something unharmed, so now this 3 TPE have something to repair, giving you value over few turns. This can add up quickly to play style similar to death guard. You are less durable than dg but you have much better firepower than them.
tneva82 wrote: Yeah 9 and then 3x3. Needless to say my poor mek guns did not last long Add to that 4 plasma bot, 3 onagers and bunch of other stuff and basically on my T1 I gave up having lost all mek guns, 12/15 lootas, whole ton of grots(grot screen for lootas) and all I did was 4 wounds to onager despite SSAG firing twice.
don't know about repairing...He never needed it really as his firepower crippled my army. I would have been left weathering 1 more round and then try to bumrush him with boyz and hope something is left. Unlikely to work and already down in vp's and super hard to score anything(draw 2, opponent decides what you try. I had to defend objectives on his quarter etc...)
So 1x9 Breachers and 3x3 Destroyers? Shouldn't that be the other way around? Lol...
I think I want to keep my gunline simple. A big Martian death bubble with Knights and Rusty 17 in front of them. For the gunline, 5x Dakkabots, 2x Crawlers, and 3x3 Breachers seems ideal; Breachers can act as a second screen for the pure shooters. Maybe I can expand it to 6x Dakkabots with 3x4 Breachers later when I get the time to build and paint another box of them.
Or do you guys think I can get away with Destroyers? If so, I would probably want to make them a 1x6 Ryzaphron unit to melt stuff with Plasma. I have had good success with this sort of combo in the past, but the sticking point was always lack of infantry and being outranged by Castellans. Manipulus won't be much help, since he will be Mars. Not as big a concern if everyone is just going to use Crusaders with 36" range. Thoughts?
What's about ditching Mars and making a Ryza detachment with a unit of Dakkabots in it. Then all of your stuff profits from one buffing source and instead of the mindlock you just use the Elimination volley strat so your Bots will be hitting on 3's rerolling 1s.
You would WoM, but could maybe take an Infiltrator unit In your graia soup detachment?
Also even Breachers would benefit from an Ryza detachment. Rerolling hits from Prime Hermeticon + rerolling 1s to wound.
tneva82 wrote: Yeah 9 and then 3x3. Needless to say my poor mek guns did not last long Add to that 4 plasma bot, 3 onagers and bunch of other stuff and basically on my T1 I gave up having lost all mek guns, 12/15 lootas, whole ton of grots(grot screen for lootas) and all I did was 4 wounds to onager despite SSAG firing twice.
don't know about repairing...He never needed it really as his firepower crippled my army. I would have been left weathering 1 more round and then try to bumrush him with boyz and hope something is left. Unlikely to work and already down in vp's and super hard to score anything(draw 2, opponent decides what you try. I had to defend objectives on his quarter etc...)
So 1x9 Breachers and 3x3 Destroyers? Shouldn't that be the other way around? Lol...
I think I want to keep my gunline simple. A big Martian death bubble with Knights and Rusty 17 in front of them. For the gunline, 5x Dakkabots, 2x Crawlers, and 3x3 Breachers seems ideal; Breachers can act as a second screen for the pure shooters. Maybe I can expand it to 6x Dakkabots with 3x4 Breachers later when I get the time to build and paint another box of them.
Or do you guys think I can get away with Destroyers? If so, I would probably want to make them a 1x6 Ryzaphron unit to melt stuff with Plasma. I have had good success with this sort of combo in the past, but the sticking point was always lack of infantry and being outranged by Castellans. Manipulus won't be much help, since he will be Mars. Not as big a concern if everyone is just going to use Crusaders with 36" range. Thoughts?
9xbreachers, 3x3breachers and seems 3xdestroyers. Not too familiar with ad mech stuff and game was over so quickly didn't even remember list well but luckily tournament has the lists on their web page.
Can't comment on efficiency much except that it was excelent hard counter for my poor list and that it made to 3rd losing first 0-20 to this:
HQ5: Ahriman [131] (Doombolt, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Death Hex)
HQ6: Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with wings (170) malefic talons (10) Helm of the Third Eye (0) [180] – WARLORD (High Magister) (Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate)
HQ7: Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with wings (170) malefic talons (10) [180] (Infernal Gaze, Warptime)
And finally vaporizing my poor orks:
Spoiler:
HQ1: Big mek - warlord: Big killa boss, shock attack gun(da souped up shokka) 80
HQ2: weirdboy(da jump) 62
@tneva82
I totally just realized you don't need to follow rule of three for Kataphrons. But the list looks good. It's basically abusing the crap out of efficient unit choices and force multipliers; my Martian gunline list is sort of the same concept, though I have a Knight instead of Destroyers as well as one more Dakkabot instead of a third Crawler. Not fully understanding why he distributed them the way he did though. I mean, why put the Destroyers in the detachment without the Dakkabots? Why not make more MSUs of Breachers or perhaps make middle-sized units?
Is he playing before the Eldar nerf? Not sure how he lost with so many Breachers and Icarus Crawlers. Seems like a terrifying matchup for the Eldar.
Wanted to pitch to you a list that has done really well for me recently and encompasses a lot of what I like to use, gaining power in a number of ways since the last FAQ.
1999pt 12CP
Mars Battalion
Belisarius Cawl
Tech Priest Manipulus (WL: Prime Hermeticon + Raiment of the Technomartyr)
4xBreachers
4xBreachers
4xBreachers
4x Kastelan Robots
Mars Battalion (Servitor Maniple + Field Commander)
Tech Priest Enginseer (FC: Master of Biosplicing)
Tech Priest Enginseer
The list runs like a standard cawlstar. Breachers deploy as far forward as I can, cawl + manipulus sits between with the FC, robots move into position and destroyers fall in behind the rear.
The dragoons sit on a side to prevent flanking and countercharge exclusively on the breacher wall.
I have been very successful with Infoslave Skull and Destroyers on the backline purposefully leaving space for Deepstrikers with Cawl rerolling in that phase now.
Breachers and dragoons stop the tide and the robots and destroyers have mopped up.
Suzuteo wrote: @tneva82
I totally just realized you don't need to follow rule of three for Kataphrons. But the list looks good. It's basically abusing the crap out of efficient unit choices and force multipliers; my Martian gunline list is sort of the same concept, though I have a Knight instead of Destroyers as well as one more Dakkabot instead of a third Crawler. Not fully understanding why he distributed them the way he did though. I mean, why put the Destroyers in the detachment without the Dakkabots? Why not make more MSUs of Breachers or perhaps make middle-sized units?
Is he playing before the Eldar nerf? Not sure how he lost with so many Breachers and Icarus Crawlers. Seems like a terrifying matchup for the Eldar.
Nope this was on sunday so FAQ was in effect. Only thing that the eldar really lost though was doom with the dark eldar flyers.
Can't comment on your questions and don't know how game went. My game vs IG took long enough that didn't really have time to see how game unfolded.
Wanted to pitch to you a list that has done really well for me recently and encompasses a lot of what I like to use, gaining power in a number of ways since the last FAQ.
1999pt 12CP
Mars Battalion
Belisarius Cawl
Tech Priest Manipulus (WL: Prime Hermeticon + Raiment of the Technomartyr)
4xBreachers
4xBreachers
4xBreachers
4x Kastelan Robots
Mars Battalion (Servitor Maniple + Field Commander)
Tech Priest Enginseer (FC: Master of Biosplicing)
Tech Priest Enginseer
The list runs like a standard cawlstar. Breachers deploy as far forward as I can, cawl + manipulus sits between with the FC, robots move into position and destroyers fall in behind the rear.
The dragoons sit on a side to prevent flanking and countercharge exclusively on the breacher wall.
I have been very successful with Infoslave Skull and Destroyers on the backline purposefully leaving space for Deepstrikers with Cawl rerolling in that phase now.
Breachers and dragoons stop the tide and the robots and destroyers have mopped up.
well said my point exactly. ITs v v close to mine though i prefer tactical advantages like infiltrators deep strike etc but the idea is close. The summary is almost the same. you can remove a Robot and / or a destroyer and add flavor. i d definetly sugest you try 4 breachers with hydralic as your list is build rest is like i use them atm more orless but i v seen of late like 3-5 ad mech lists on the last nation Tour that i figured is all going about preferance and playstyle in details.
I was thinking of dropping the Knight for a Dragoon unit too. Except in my iteration, I used a Spearhead and two Battalions. Even then, I was getting worried about how much tax I was paying. Your solution is elegant, but it's still 90 points.
That being said, how are the Plasmaphrons in Mars? My math says Ryza is still way better, but on the plus side, it brings both them and the Dakkabots to 3+ BS.
@Yoda79
Really does seem like the direction everyone is moving is Kataphron spam. I can see why. Skitarii have always sucked, and these guys are really point efficient for their profile.
I guess I need to build another 3x and get up to 12x. Maybe another 6x after that. Sigh. These guys are not cheap.
I wonder if I can convince the TO to let me run my Mortars as Plasmaphrons. Culverins are cannons, after all. Lol...
If you wanna run Plasmaphrons + Bots why not run them as Ryza?
Sure you lose Cawl but you'll be hitting on 3's rerolling 1s anyway with both of them. Plus it's not even funny how much better Ryza Plasmaphrons are compared to Mars.
sure but there is a big difference in Mars Robots and Ryza Robots.
And what i Get from MArs especially with the reformed overwatch and Cawl Does not compare.
My decision has been made atm and i run.
Robots and Destroyers as MArs in a more pure ad mech army.
OR Ryza if i take only a destroyer group in a soup maybe.
IF you go competitive Ad mech as pure as possible or at least 1500 points ad mech there is no better than Cawl MArs etc for various reason explained in detail many times.
IF you know decide to play parts of the competitive game building up your list maybe try1500 total points games or use Allies and require a specific unit then Ryza is the key.
With the new vigilus you can take Ryza destroyers and a dominus use the +1 cp and Ryza cp and get the super bs 3 rerolling no explotion plasma +++. Sure thing. And maybe its a away to make a more mobile force.
As i said i had great success witha battalion like
dominus
Manipulus
4-6 breachers
4-6 breachers
6-12 plasma destro.
Superb they also get +1 to wound cc breachers etc etc.
or even split 2 battalions agripinna dominus and breachers and another with Ryza fdestoyers
both superb and i like them.
Same as i like knights and onagers Dragoons and priests.
But as i grow in points and the games become more and more specific i prefer to get the Cawl Combo its just one step above for me atm (current meta + to hit bla bla )
Yeah, getting the rerolls against minus to hit is pretty key for a gunline-focused army. It's why we're not all 100% Stygies. (Super consistent Canticles is also nice.) But the math suggests Ryzaphrons with a Dominus and the rest Mars. I am a bit skeptical of Elimination Volley in general, and I never liked it myself, especially since the Robots travel at a different speed than the Kataphrons (faster or not at all). Just wanted some people's opinions of it in use.
I definitely agree that we have lots of nice options. Doesn't mean it's the most optimal options.
I will go back to the drawing board, but I am thinking of maybe bringing both Destroyers and Breachers now. Definitely going with Martian gunline with Knight+Graia screen.
I have tried both the mars gunline and the ryza variation. I think the point that is missed is that it really depends on the mission format. As yoda says he runs his for ETC. In ITC for example cawl himself gives up max kingslayer points, the multiple breacher squads give up easy gangbusters or marked for death points. So the list(s) may not perform as you think they will depending on your mission format and you may feel you need to change up the list to the format.
The key point is that with the prevalence of eldar flyers (which arnt going away) you need destroyers and bots together to get the +2 to hit, whichever forgeworld you choose. I have tried mixing them up and it simply becomes a Jack of all trades master of none.
These are very good points. I did notice that odd number of Breachers is ideal for denying the extra Gang Buster point; however, Breachers are never something you immediately go for. Marked For Death is probably not as big a deal (and unavoidable); AdMech is definitely an elite/vehicle based army. Also, nobody has ever Kingslayer'ed Cawl before in any of my games.
EDIT: So maybe 3x3 Breachers and 1x5 Destroyers? If all Mars, would we still be going the Plasma route?
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1340 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 280 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
If you also incorporate Dragoons there will be no point in trying to deny Gangbusters :p
As for Grav vs Plas in non Ryza:
In my calculations both are nearly similar against vehicles. I would take Grav so you have more versatility due to number of shots and a backup unit for WoM. 6 Grav Destroyers with 15" RF phosphor are still 36/42 shots.
Envii wrote: I have tried both the mars gunline and the ryza variation. I think the point that is missed is that it really depends on the mission format. As yoda says he runs his for ETC. In ITC for example cawl himself gives up max kingslayer points, the multiple breacher squads give up easy gangbusters or marked for death points. So the list(s) may not perform as you think they will depending on your mission format and you may feel you need to change up the list to the format.
The key point is that with the prevalence of eldar flyers (which arnt going away) you need destroyers and bots together to get the +2 to hit, whichever forgeworld you choose. I have tried mixing them up and it simply becomes a Jack of all trades master of none.
Hi,
I play ETC if that counts here in the UK most often.
I see this argument a lot about Ryzaphrons and frankly I feel it is shortsighted in the grand scheme of things. Ryzaphrons without a doubt offer the best damage per point, without question. However, that is all they offer and the FW dogma is largely useless if you are dedicating points to destroyers anyway.
When I first started building lists for competitive play, I read all the forums and found out the best units the codex had to offer and the combos that this army could field and that got me a little way. Stygies dragoons, mars bots, knight allies. All good things.
In truth though, what really helped my progress was understanding the list as a whole rather than the threat levels that were present. How the list moves, how to find multipliers that benefit your army as a whole and how your list wins rather than a unit.
To this end, reliable cover and a the best reroll aura in 40k and Mortal wound spam on weight of dice lend themselves to an army that can do 3 things - have units that benefit from improved cover saves, higher toughness as a dominating percentage of the army that can be repaired, a large shooting presence and the means to protect this shooting. Mars can be built this way and thus the whole army must lend themselves to it.
I have played Ryzaphrons and they are good but you must build the army around it. A mixed battalion with mars infiltrators, graia rangers with stygies detachment and dragoons / drills / priests with knights. They need protection through aggressive play otherwise they get shot off the board turn 1 or closed in on because the rest of the army isnt built to protect them.
It's new and fun but it must work within the confines of the list.
Ah shoot. I just realized that I need Servitor Maniple and a Dominus to make that list work. This is really hard!
@IronVaught
Yup. You've summed up the two dominant trends succinctly. AdMech Soup or Martian gunline, both can be backed by a Stygies or Lucius detachment or a Knight.
EDIT: These are the two working lists I have been going over the past week. Much more comfortable with the gunline because that has been what I have played in the past.
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1997 points 13 CP (-2)
Martian Gunline + Knight:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1324 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 280 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1999 points 13 CP (-3)
And one list that I toyed with but never posted before:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1100 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 280 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr, Warlord: Monitor Malevolus
A question before i start putting my ranger's together. What is peoples opinion on the Arquebuses? Is it worth having one or two 5 man squads with 2 Arquebuses camping in the back field?
And are Vanguards ever worth the extra points over the cheaper rangers?
Arquebuses are one of the best snipers in the meta right now. If you run Assassins, they definitely are good to have because Vindicare + 4-6 Arquebuses can pretty much shut down most character-driven strategies.
ThePie wrote: A question before i start putting my ranger's together. What is peoples opinion on the Arquebuses? Is it worth having one or two 5 man squads with 2 Arquebuses camping in the back field?
For me they are absolute steal. Before assassins rework they were best snipers in game, most of the games i take at least 6 distributed in 4 or 3 squads. While camping objectives, or just covering fire lanes they are serious threat to enemy characters. They put threat even to DP's. And if they don't kill them, dp with 4 wounds left is much leas threat than one with full health.
ThePie wrote: And are Vanguards ever worth the extra points over the cheaper rangers?
Yes, because they put out a loot of daka, and while rangers excel at siting in backfield, those guys are great to catch midfield objectives. Cancer gun is no joke, we are talking 8pts unit with 3 shots. This quickly adds up. Rule of thumb 3 shots s3 are on average equal to 1 shot s 4 for t4 target. And those 2D on 6 to wound can add up on things like venoms.
Don't forget rad saturation. While it isn't something that you should plan to use, it will often catch your opponent of guard if you can use it to reach break point for your other assault unit. Change t4 to t3 and you tasergoad infiltrators wound on 2s this mob of ork boys. Grotesques with homunculi? Now he doesn't matter and your fulgurites wound them on 4s again.
Plus, they actually fit better for plasma calipers if you ever wanted to use them. They aren't better than rangers, but in my opinion if you want to do two battalions 4x rangers and 2x vanguards is way to go.
Ah, many thanks for the tips, il make some Vanguards to mix up with my Rangers then. Really looking forward to trying out playing admech, they seem really fun
@IronVaught
I tried plugging your list into a builder. I came out with 2004 points. Can you sanity check me? Something seems to cost 5 more points where I'm looking.
Also, I noticed the principle differences between what you're doing and what I was trying earlier:
-You double down on Mars while I try to splash in Ryza and Graia. So it's Elimination Volley and reroll all hits versus Noospheric Mindlock, Plasma Specialists, and reroll 1s to hit.
-You take an Enginseer with Master of Bio-splicing, I take a Dominus without Bio-splicing.
-You pay the tax to get 3x4 Servitors and 4x Dragoons, I take an auxiliary for 6x Dragoons.
Your approach may be better against stuff like Eldar aircraft, but less so against something like Knights, as 6 Ryza Destroyers under my approach still outputs more damage than 9 Mars Destroyers under yours. Your list is also much more durable, with more redundancy.
My list for reference:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1100 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 280 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr, Warlord: Monitor Malevolus
Guys, is it only in my French codex as a mistake, or does yours say Enginseers can only repair <Vehicles> ? If that is so, wouldn't it be wiser to have Master of Biosplicing on a model that can heal the Kataphrons to full Wounds before using the WL trait to repop one ? Else you'd need to be in range of a Dominus/Cawl to fix the wounded Kataphron before being able to res one from Biosplicing.
@Suzuteo Yes to all points. Manipulus is 85points with transonic. Battlescribe is wrong.
@Aaranis No, yuur codex is correct but the destroyers will always be in range of cawl and the manipulus and i want the tougher mamipulus to house Prime Hermeticon. Field commander isnt Slay The Warlord food so i prefer the emginseer to have it.
IronVaught wrote: @Suzuteo Yes to all points. Manipulus is 85points with transonic. Battlescribe is wrong.
@Aaranis No, yuur codex is correct but the destroyers will always be in range of cawl and the manipulus and i want the tougher mamipulus to house Prime Hermeticon. Field commander isnt Slay The Warlord food so i prefer the emginseer to have it.
Uh... my physical data sheet says it's 90 base, 5 extra for the Magnafail Lance. So unless I got a misprint AND Battlescribe is wrong...?
Also, Master of Biosplicing lets your Enginseers heal Kataphrons, even if the normal repair ability doesn't.
The datasheet for the Manipulus has the points cost at 90 including wargear I believe. I've been running it as 90 points regardless of weapon choice. It is strange that we have a cost for weapons on a datasheet that states the points per unit already includes wargear though.
IronVaught wrote: @Suzuteo Yes to all points. Manipulus is 85points with transonic. Battlescribe is wrong.
@Aaranis No, yuur codex is correct but the destroyers will always be in range of cawl and the manipulus and i want the tougher mamipulus to house Prime Hermeticon. Field commander isnt Slay The Warlord food so i prefer the emginseer to have it.
Uh... my physical data sheet says it's 90 base, 5 extra for the Magnafail Lance. So unless I got a misprint AND Battlescribe is wrong...?
Also, Master of Biosplicing lets your Enginseers heal Kataphrons, even if the normal repair ability doesn't.
90 including wargear. Magnarail is 5 and included. 85 without. Its been ruled this way at every tournament ive seen in the UK and across the sea.
Yup @ splicing allowing healing but the normal enginseer repair only affects vehicles.
Ah I don't deny you can repair with Biosplicing, my point was that to bring back a model the unit had to have all models fully healed, so what we usually do is heal the unit (if it's wounded), then bring back a dead Kataphron. In my Agripinaa I have a Dominus with Autocaduceus so that I can always repair 2W before bringing one dead Kataphron back, all with the same Techpriest. But your method works too.
Ah. That's a good point. But yeah, let the bigger priests do the repairs.
But yeah, I totally forgot about Prime Hermeticon. Seems like it would make Breachers, Fulgurites, Infiltrators, and even Skitarii much more handy in a fight.
Also, after reading tneva82's experiences, I crunched the numbers. Seems our best unit against >12" Hemlocks and such are Lascannon Ballistariis in large units. This is important because looking at these lists, I have noticed that we rely a lot on 4+ shooting. Has anyone come up with something better? You can take them in a Mars gunline for 54" reroll all or in Stygies for the -1 to hit.
Suzuteo wrote: Ah. That's a good point. But yeah, let the bigger priests do the repairs.
But yeah, I totally forgot about Prime Hermeticon. Seems like it would make Breachers, Fulgurites, Infiltrators, and even Skitarii much more handy in a fight.
Also, after reading tneva82's experiences, I crunched the numbers. Seems our best unit against >12" Hemlocks and such are Lascannon Ballistariis in large units. This is important because looking at these lists, I have noticed that we rely a lot on 4+ shooting. Has anyone come up with something better? You can take them in a Mars gunline for 54" reroll all or in Stygies for the -1 to hit.
Don't forget that you can screen with balistari to bait charge from bigger threat(multi knight list, cos brothers and so on) and use Cognis overwatch stratagem. Since rule of 3 and use ov inv 3 balistari are better than neutrons I'm most circumstances. In any decent terrain board it isn hard to hide balistari behind LoS. Would i have them, I would run them.
That’s like 1400 odd points. then I’m not sure what direction to go in afterwards
If I wanted to stay Mars adding another barebones Batallion leaves me with around 430 points and I’m not sure how best to compliment it. Do you folks think adding 4 las ballistari and a few snipers is a good shout?
Wanted to pitch to you a list that has done really well for me recently and encompasses a lot of what I like to use, gaining power in a number of ways since the last FAQ.
4xServitors
4xServitors
4xServitors
Sorry to sully the Tactics forums with such a noob request, but I don't always keep up with the latest updates in the increasingly chimeric ruleset ...
- Several people talk about taking Servitors nowadays. Where do I find the update/errata/appendix to the apocrypha that makes them have a purpose? (in the codex they are utterly useless)
- Where do I find the rules for Manipulus? Everyone is talking about this also. Are the two matters related? Is it from a Vigilus book?
Wanted to pitch to you a list that has done really well for me recently and encompasses a lot of what I like to use, gaining power in a number of ways since the last FAQ.
4xServitors
4xServitors
4xServitors
Sorry to sully the Tactics forums with such a noob request, but I don't always keep up with the latest updates in the increasingly chimeric ruleset ...
- Several people talk about taking Servitors nowadays. Where do I find the update/errata/appendix to the apocrypha that makes them have a purpose? (in the codex they are utterly useless)
- Where do I find the rules for Manipulus? Everyone is talking about this also. Are the two matters related? Is it from a Vigilus book?
Thanks,
Mark.
As of latest chapter approved Servitors are 5ppm since Servoarms are free now. Plus we have an Detachment for our Kataphrons in Vigilus which makes those good. In this detachment there is a WLT which lets you kill on of your Servitors to resurrect a Kataphron, so you are trading a 5pt for a 50pt model.
Regarding the Manipulus: There is a Killteam set with him and 5 Infiltrators, there you also got the rules for him.
Servitors got a lot cheaper since Chapter Approved (5pt each), and in the Vigilus Defiant campaign book there's a new AdMech Specialist Detachment called the Servitor Maniple. Through that detachment's warlord trait one can revive a killed Kataphron model with a much cheaper Servitor.
The Tech-Priest Manipulus and it's rule is in the Theta-7 Acquisitus kill team starter box, but it will most likely be available separately at a later date.
That’s like 1400 odd points. then I’m not sure what direction to go in afterwards
If I wanted to stay Mars adding another barebones Batallion leaves me with around 430 points and I’m not sure how best to compliment it. Do you folks think adding 4 las ballistari and a few snipers is a good shout?
It's mostly personal preference and flavour by what I would add to that is a Graia Battalion of Vanguard units and a Mars Battalion of Rangers with Arquebus. Kataphrons and Kastelans are very CP heavy after all. After that perhaps some Mars Infiltrators and even an Assassin for 2CP.
That’s like 1400 odd points. then I’m not sure what direction to go in afterwards
If I wanted to stay Mars adding another barebones Batallion leaves me with around 430 points and I’m not sure how best to compliment it. Do you folks think adding 4 las ballistari and a few snipers is a good shout?
Can't go wrong with 3 Onagers, at their point cost it's a must have. 3 Icarus for anti-fly or 3 Lasers for anti-all. Even 3 Beamers can be nice, your 3 Onagers will cost 300 pts + 6 for 3 Stubbers, they're hard to destroy, take space and give bonus morale. Personally I never play without two sniper squads of 5-7 guys each with an Omnispex, characters are still vital to kill, especially Psykers.
It's weird how all of a sudden you guys are all playing 20 Kataphrons... They're the most expensive Troops in the game, I'd never buy so many boxes of that but great if you can, I'm curious to try too, although thematically Skitarii are my preferred choice.
With all these recently posted lists(mine included), what are peoples plans vs smash capts? As a previous smash capt player, id absolutly love to face my own list, no overwatch, jump over screens and mulch a squad of breachers, fight again smash another or tag bots/destroyers etc etc. Its game over as these list types are based on the breachers being the counter punch in cc, but a smash capt will mulch a squad or 4-6, even if he doesnt and you kill him, he will finish it off when he dies. Im feeling more dedicated cc units are needed. Just food for thought.
a)i use Ranger snipers yes. I consider them core in my list. And since we dont have los shooting like mortars i believe snipers are the key to play vs armies we want to play against. Important.
b) Assasins. The 2 cp make them not so appealing. The whole situation was to get an assasin to suplement your needs vs various enemies. Atm i cant spend 2 cp and 85 points for an option. They are now Working as they should in lists taking a detachment of 4+ to begin with and again building a plan that will work with them inside. So the lists that have them ow have already calculated their worth and bring the ones they need .
Sure the option is there but ... you most likely will decide prior and get them in your list rather than use 1. And it was in my eyes better this way. Especially in competitive since i saw all imperium lists last tourney with one assasin . Yea i love the option but nah i hate the all list have one.
c) All good points Said here about Kataphrons.
It all comes down to the list and enviroment you play. Also i might add to the playstyle.
The game has now a v v good form where most likely many of the army units are playble. Almost all units have a value big or small got options and a General can use CP stratagems to enchance hiw asrmy in situations where he sees fit.
IT has become a true Strategy game as i see it and wanted some years now. And i dont say its perfect but the Volume we interact with the stratagems and cp usage trully makes it more strategic than pure list army.
So you wont debate and find the perfect solution as we did prior editions. There is no best or top list there are option.
The options end up for me and i really tried to explain from day one to build a plan. a Working 40k plan with your list.
Simple steps that you need to consider while you ll face various enemies and various plans. Now how you will get what you need is up to you and how you play the game and there it starts and ends.
I can post my list 200 times meet you in ETc and play the list differently. its the truth.
That said perfect list does not exist. You ll need to abjust your list according to your needs. your play style etc.
what we can talk is about experience and some key points you can calculate when building a list.
Better use Ryza if you got no Robots or smaller group of destroyers in a soup list.
Maybe invest in Agripinaa grav flamers for a force to push forward instead of a static gun line.
All thse decisions alter the list a lot. For a moving force you d prefer Vanguards to push along for horde clear.
OR IF you decide to Take Cawl and a gun line maybe some ranger snipers.
All suggestions iv read so far are good you need to play the lists and find the spot you are happy with.
2*4 breachers (5 better if possible)
1*5+ destroyers
4+Robots
Valid with Cal and Manipu.
I suggest infiltrators if you go Mars they help a lot.
from that point on its personal preferance etc. How you decide to play what you need wht you liek to do in table maybe consider your local MEta. OR yes the Tounrey you are heading on.
All valid and good options.
I personally am a toolbox player. I almost never build non-meta TAC. I look at the most dangerous lists and make sure I have specific answers for them.
Core to a gunline is a Cawlstar, which quite literally can kill anything:
Cawl
Manipulus
4-6 Kastelan Robots
Then you have to have a melee screen of some sort to handle Chaos, Orks, Nids, etc. I would take two of:
Breachers
Dragoons
Knight
Fulgurites
Then you need an answer to Eldar aircraft spam:
Lascannon Ballistarii
Icarus Crawler
Mars Destroyer
So basically, Plasma Destroyers and Lascannon Ballistarii are our most efficient answer to a lot of things. The former are just so amazingly cheap for the shots they provide. Only downside is that they are BS4, which combined with the Robots is a dangerous backbone for the army given how much minus to hit there is out there. I actually realized last night when comparing my list to others that the Ryza Destroyers are pretty bad without the old Dagger trick because I can no longer expect to be within 12" of my target when I drop. That has been crucial in some of my games. Meanwhile, Lascannon Ballistarii latter are basically Neutron Crawlers with squadron and +2 to hit stratagem. With Mars buffs, they have 54" inch range and reroll all hits, so a unit of 6 is basically shooting down 1-2 aircraft per turn. Very tempting to pull mine out of mothballs again.
Another question, for my first (and only for now) Dunecrawler, would it be better to put the Neutron laser or Icarus Arrray on it? I know its easy to magnetize but i dont have the stuff and i dont think i have the patience to wait for any order to arrive hehe.
ThePie wrote: Another question, for my first (and only for now) Dunecrawler, would it be better to put the Neutron laser or Icarus Arrray on it? I know its easy to magnetize but i dont have the stuff and i dont think i have the patience to wait for any order to arrive hehe.
You don't need to have magnetised them to change loadout you just need to not glue the neutron laser turret in place and not glue the half-sphere with cog and skull logo onto the side of the turret mount. You can just slot any of the options in after that, the model seems designed with it in mind.
ThePie wrote: Another question, for my first (and only for now) Dunecrawler, would it be better to put the Neutron laser or Icarus Arrray on it? I know its easy to magnetize but i dont have the stuff and i dont think i have the patience to wait for any order to arrive hehe.
You don't need to have magnetised them to change loadout you just need to not glue the neutron laser turret in place and not glue the half-sphere with cog and skull logo onto the side of the turret mount. You can just slot any of the options in after that, the model seems designed with it in mind.
oh i didnt know that, that would be really handy if it works.
ThePie wrote: Another question, for my first (and only for now) Dunecrawler, would it be better to put the Neutron laser or Icarus Arrray on it? I know its easy to magnetize but i dont have the stuff and i dont think i have the patience to wait for any order to arrive hehe.
Depends on the rest of your list.
if you have things like Ryzaphrons in there then go Icarus because they can deal with tanks while the icarus deals with light vehicles/flyers etc.
If you have things like multiple autocannon balistarii that can easily gain a +2 to hit which can deal with flyers etc. then go Neutron to take out tanks.
personally I never leave home without at least 1 Neutron, and only go to Icarus for subsequent Onagers, because it is useful to have a tank killing gun that does not rely on CP to function. Not everything has an invulnerable save... basically they are looking at knights - Icarus is great at pealing off the odd wounds here or there, as it is weight of fire that kills them rather than a (now 50%) chance to get through the Ion SHield with Rotate/WL trait etc.
Suzuteo wrote: I personally am a toolbox player. I almost never build non-meta TAC. I look at the most dangerous lists and make sure I have specific answers for them.
Core to a gunline is a Cawlstar, which quite literally can kill anything:
Cawl
Manipulus
4-6 Kastelan Robots
Then you have to have a melee screen of some sort to handle Chaos, Orks, Nids, etc. I would take two of:
Breachers
Dragoons
Knight
Fulgurites
Then you need an answer to Eldar aircraft spam:
Lascannon Ballistarii
Icarus Crawler
Mars Destroyer
So basically, Plasma Destroyers and Lascannon Ballistarii are our most efficient answer to a lot of things. The former are just so amazingly cheap for the shots they provide. Only downside is that they are BS4, which combined with the Robots is a dangerous backbone for the army given how much minus to hit there is out there. I actually realized last night when comparing my list to others that the Ryza Destroyers are pretty bad without the old Dagger trick because I can no longer expect to be within 12" of my target when I drop. That has been crucial in some of my games. Meanwhile, Lascannon Ballistarii latter are basically Neutron Crawlers with squadron and +2 to hit stratagem. With Mars buffs, they have 54" inch range and reroll all hits, so a unit of 6 is basically shooting down 1-2 aircraft per turn. Very tempting to pull mine out of mothballs again.
Suzuteo, I have some in-depth questions, as you seem to be really on top of the game and have similar lists, that combine a bit of every role.
Right now I am good at building lists, so the next step is the game itself, how do you use those components, what to look out for?
This question goes to everyone really. Anything regarding Cawlstar, screen, vanguards, melee.
1. Deployment: Is really hard for me, I generally just look out for LoS and range.
2. Vanguards: Usually put them as far away as possibile to be able to reach objectives and deny first turn movement shenanigans.
3. Screen: How far do you put them away from your robots? Mostly using rangers and some servitors. Any tips against flyers, skimmers? How to place your characters in relation to robots, or just leave them alone with the overwatch relict?
4. melee: I dont use electrovariants, kataphrons nor have many chickens. Ruststalkers are bad, but tips would be appreciated too.
5. Dragoons and Ironstriders seem pretty good with stratagems in bigger units, but are they worth taking solo as I only have one magnetized.
@ThePie
Depends on your meta. If you shoot vehicles lacking strong invulnerable saves, then Neutron Lasers. But Icarus Array is much more well-rounded.
Crawlers are nice because they don't require any CP, cost little in terms of points, and are relatively tough.
Triple Phosphor Kastelan Robots (Dakkabots) and Plasma Destroyers are our best bang for buck units though. Lascannon Ballistarii are also essentially twin lascannons for 80 points, which is unremarkable until you realize they can be squadroned and get a +2 to hit steroid.
0XFallen wrote: Suzuteo, I have some in-depth questions, as you seem to be really on top of the game and have similar lists, that combine a bit of every role.
Right now I am good at building lists, so the next step is the game itself, how do you use those components, what to look out for?
This question goes to everyone really. Anything regarding Cawlstar, screen, vanguards, melee.
1. Deployment: Is really hard for me, I generally just look out for LoS and range.
2. Vanguards: Usually put them as far away as possibile to be able to reach objectives and deny first turn movement shenanigans.
3. Screen: How far do you put them away from your robots? Mostly using rangers and some servitors. Any tips against flyers, skimmers? How to place your characters in relation to robots, or just leave them alone with the overwatch relict?
4. melee: I dont use electrovariants, kataphrons nor have many chickens. Ruststalkers are bad, but tips would be appreciated too.
5. Dragoons and Ironstriders seem pretty good with stratagems in bigger units, but are they worth taking solo as I only have one magnetized.
I'm actually super far behind at the moment with all the changes (I played Soup for months and now I am re-learning pure AdMech) and being out of practice for two months. And I have BAO in two weeks! My paint might not even be dry by the time I show up to the convention hall. Haha. But I will try to answer your questions.
1. Always deploy to maximize your ability to play the mission. This means keeping the faster moving units in front and your ranged units in order of their range (shorter range means closer to the enemy). This is all obviously to contest objectives. If you outrange the enemy, definitely deploy out of range as much as you can; forcing the heavy weapons to move is key. In certain matchups, such as Eldar, where their mobility and range is overwhelmingly good, you want to position the targets they want to remove the most further away or behind certain LOS-blocking terrain so that it forces them to come into range of your guns. HOWEVER, if your opponent has a dominant strategy, like a giant melee deathball, your interest is exclusively in survival. Deploy the infantry as sacrificial buffers, then your melee screen, then your gunline. Except against Nids, who will Overrun; against them, build strong points around your gunline by mixing fighting and shooting so they don't just rocket behind your gunline, which traps it between your melee and the Nids.
2. In general, my Skitarii do nothing but stay alive and hold objectives, as well as shoot other infantry. Well, unless I am sacrificing them to buy me one turn. Remember that you can ignore Overwatch by charging from behind a wall.
3. 2 inches plus the enemy model's base size. This is the minimum to prevent the enemy model from "sliding" into combat with your Dakkabots in consolidation. So 4" is usually pretty safe unless it's something like a Knight.
4. You need a melee screen to slow down assault armies and also to peel fighting units off your gunline. Fulgurites have to be played aggressively; a Drill helps protect them until they get a kill and become virtually unkillable. Infiltrators used to be really good when you could deploy inside your own deployment, but nowadays are mostly used as a beta strike.
5. Ironstriders can be used to fill Outrider taxes. Otherwise, they shine in units of 4-6. They practically always hit, and they have excellent point efficiency and mobility for objective capture.
0XFallen wrote: Suzuteo, I have some in-depth questions, as you seem to be really on top of the game and have similar lists, that combine a bit of every role.
Right now I am good at building lists, so the next step is the game itself, how do you use those components, what to look out for?
This question goes to everyone really. Anything regarding Cawlstar, screen, vanguards, melee.
1. Deployment: Is really hard for me, I generally just look out for LoS and range.
2. Vanguards: Usually put them as far away as possibile to be able to reach objectives and deny first turn movement shenanigans.
3. Screen: How far do you put them away from your robots? Mostly using rangers and some servitors. Any tips against flyers, skimmers? How to place your characters in relation to robots, or just leave them alone with the overwatch relict?
4. melee: I dont use electrovariants, kataphrons nor have many chickens. Ruststalkers are bad, but tips would be appreciated too.
5. Dragoons and Ironstriders seem pretty good with stratagems in bigger units, but are they worth taking solo as I only have one magnetized.
I'm actually super far behind at the moment with all the changes (I played Soup for months and now I am re-learning pure AdMech) and being out of practice for two months. And I have BAO in two weeks! My paint might not even be dry by the time I show up to the convention hall. Haha. But I will try to answer your questions.
1. Always deploy to maximize your ability to play the mission. This means keeping the faster moving units in front and your ranged units in order of their range (shorter range means closer to the enemy). This is all obviously to contest objectives. If you outrange the enemy, definitely deploy out of range as much as you can; forcing the heavy weapons to move is key. In certain matchups, such as Eldar, where their mobility and range is overwhelmingly good, you want to position the targets they want to remove the most further away or behind certain LOS-blocking terrain so that it forces them to come into range of your guns. HOWEVER, if your opponent has a dominant strategy, like a giant melee deathball, your interest is exclusively in survival. Deploy the infantry as sacrificial buffers, then your melee screen, then your gunline. Except against Nids, who will Overrun; against them, build strong points around your gunline by mixing fighting and shooting so they don't just rocket behind your gunline, which traps it between your melee and the Nids.
2. In general, my Skitarii do nothing but stay alive and hold objectives, as well as shoot other infantry. Well, unless I am sacrificing them to buy me one turn. Remember that you can ignore Overwatch by charging from behind a wall.
3. 2 inches plus the enemy model's base size. This is the minimum to prevent the enemy model from "sliding" into combat with your Dakkabots in consolidation. So 4" is usually pretty safe unless it's something like a Knight.
4. You need a melee screen to slow down assault armies and also to peel fighting units off your gunline. Fulgurites have to be played aggressively; a Drill helps protect them until they get a kill and become virtually unkillable. Infiltrators used to be really good when you could deploy inside your own deployment, but nowadays are mostly used as a beta strike.
5. Ironstriders can be used to fill Outrider taxes. Otherwise, they shine in units of 4-6. They practically always hit, and they have excellent point efficiency and mobility for objective capture.
Thanks for the input!
I read the deepstrike rule and nothing prohibits infiltrators to be set up during deployment, doesnt it? So against a huge alphastrike with mostly melee that would be a good idea I believe.
So I am convinced now that the new gatekeeper is going to be Eldar aircraft. A lot of armies totally get shut out by -1 to -3 to hit. I think we're actually rather exposed to this as well.
Here is the core list, Martian gunline with an Auxiliary detachment of Dragoons:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1305 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 275 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr, Warlord: Prime Hermeticon
I am thinking of various ways to use the last few points, such as:
Case A
+1 Kastelan Robot
-1 Breacher
+5 Mars Vanguard
2x4 Breacher and 1x5 Vanguard. Most simple change. Vanguard for the mobility and -1T aura in a pinch. Some people tell me the 3x Breacher unit is not as strong in fighting (3x3 attacks < 2x4 attacks) and at risk of morale issues.
Case B
-1 Breacher
+3 Destroyer
2x4 Breacher and 1x3 Destroyer. Sort of think the Destroyer MSU is a bit underwhelming, and it's only purpose is to give the Robots +1 to hit with Elimination Volley. Don't got enough spare points for more though.
Case C
-2 Dragoon
+2 Icarus Crawler
+5 Graia Ranger
Not really happy removing 2 Dragoons given I am paying for the detachment.
Case D
+2 Autocannon Ironstrider
Going to need to buy and build another two... ugh.
I read the deepstrike rule and nothing prohibits infiltrators to be set up during deployment, doesnt it? So against a huge alphastrike with mostly melee that would be a good idea I believe.
Sure, against GSC/Nids, Chaos, or any super-fast assault army, if they go first, you should set them up in a strong point to shoot and counter charge. However, if you are going first, putting them into reserves to force them to defend the artillery the next turn is important.
Suzuteo wrote: So I am convinced now that the new gatekeeper is going to be Eldar aircraft. A lot of armies totally get shut out by -1 to -3 to hit. I think we're actually rather exposed to this as well.
Here is the core list, Martian gunline with an Auxiliary detachment of Dragoons:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1305 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 275 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr, Warlord: Prime Hermeticon
I am thinking of various ways to use the last few points, such as:
Case A
+1 Kastelan Robot
-1 Breacher
+5 Mars Vanguard
2x4 Breacher and 1x5 Vanguard. Most simple change. Vanguard for the mobility and -1T aura in a pinch. Some people tell me the 3x Breacher unit is not as strong in fighting (3x3 attacks < 2x4 attacks) and at risk of morale issues.
Case B
-1 Breacher
+3 Destroyer
2x4 Breacher and 1x3 Destroyer. Sort of think the Destroyer MSU is a bit underwhelming, and it's only purpose is to give the Robots +1 to hit with Elimination Volley. Don't got enough spare points for more though.
Case C
-2 Dragoon
+2 Icarus Crawler
+5 Graia Ranger
Not really happy removing 2 Dragoons given I am paying for the detachment.
Case D
+2 Autocannon Ironstrider
Going to need to buy and build another two... ugh.
I read the deepstrike rule and nothing prohibits infiltrators to be set up during deployment, doesnt it? So against a huge alphastrike with mostly melee that would be a good idea I believe.
Sure, against GSC/Nids, Chaos, or any super-fast assault army, if they go first, you should set them up in a strong point to shoot and counter charge. However, if you are going first, putting them into reserves to force them to defend the artillery the next turn is important.
if youre fearing eldar flyers, wouldnt icarus crawlers be a must-include?
and if you feel like the -1/-3 to hit is strong against us, why run that many BS 4+?
I did the math and concluded that the Lascannon Ballistarii are much more effective, provided you have CP and bring them in larger quantities. They also do great against Wave Serpents, Knights, and other high toughness vehicles. Going to rely on the Dakkabots and Breachers to handle bikes, battlesuits, speeders. Crawlers are great value if your CP is tight though, so long as you have enough to squeeze two in.
It's not like we have a choice to run fewer 4+, as some of our best units are 4+.
Also, just had a random thought: Agripinaa Ballistarii could be really strong as well. I ran Agripinaa Crawlers before, and they just melted flying vehicles. But Lascannons have even more breadth of targets.
Suzuteo wrote: I did the math and concluded that the Lascannon Ballistarii are much more effective, provided you have CP and bring them in larger quantities. Crawlers are great value if your CP is tight. They also do great against Wave Serpents, Knights, and other high toughness vehicles. Going to rely on the Dakkabots and Breachers to handle bikes, battlesuits, speeders.
It's not like we have a choice to run fewer 4+, as some of our best units are 4+.
Also, just had a random thought: Agripinaa Ballistarii could be really strong as well. I ran Agripinaa Crawlers before, and they just melted flying vehicles. But Lascannons have even more breadth of targets.
Whats the purpose of agripinaa ballistarii exactly?
And im confused as to what you made your calculations against, surely lascannons will have a harder time dealing with bikers than an onager (less shots), however i expect the lascannon with the +@ to hit strat to fare better against actual flyers (Hemlock, razorwing, etc)
Made an edit to clarify things about the Crawlers.
Agripinaa Ballistarii for anti-vehicle shooting. It was just a thought. Against -2 to hit, they are 3+. Against everything else, Cawl reroll is sort of a waste. Dominus with the Eye to reroll 1s for wounding seems good; reroll failed wounds against Chaos, which makes Renegade Knights very sad.
I specifically stated that Dakkabots and Breachers would be shooting at bikes, battlesuits, speeders, and such.
Suzuteo wrote: Made an edit to clarify things about the Crawlers.
Agripinaa Ballistarii for anti-vehicle shooting. It was just a thought. Against -2 to hit, they are 3+. Against everything else, Cawl reroll is sort of a waste. Dominus with the Eye to reroll 1s for wounding seems good; reroll failed wounds against Chaos, which makes Renegade Knights very sad.
I specifically stated that Dakkabots and Breachers would be shooting at bikes, battlesuits, speeders, and such.
oh, i forgot about the eye (i rarely play agripiina, i like my stygies too much) i was stuck with the dogma in mind, hence my confusion since cognis overwatch made it useless.
I could see it working very well.
Seeing all you guys' lists with plenty of breachers makes me eager to try them out the next time i play
I don't dig the Eye against Eldar flyers. You have to get into 18" right?
Those things are so fast and there has been a shift to Crimson Hunter Exarchs who don't even need to come close to you.
@VladimirHerzog
Right. Only question is if I wanna pay 60 points for the Dominus to get it. Though other benefits include being able to take advantage of the Fresh Converts stratagem and Servitor Maniple.
EDIT: I just saw this in our FAQ:
Q: When using the Cognis Overwatch Stratagem, do I apply any relevant modifiers to the firing model’s Ballistic Skill?
A: Yes, as long as the weapon is a cognis weapon. Note that modifiers to hit rolls do not apply.
That is pretty interesting, actually.
Breachers are a really interesting unit. They are a nice glue for our lists because they are essentially elites that occupy the troop slot. (And Skitarii are one of the worst troop choices in the game right now.) But they are not particularly great at anything except being too WEIRD to kill; I mean, T5 W3 2+/6++? You want a S6/10 AP-4 D3 weapon to kill them. But the closest you've got are melee weapons like Thunder Hammers, and it's just overkill to fly over to these units with their big bases to smack them to death. So people just ignore them until they are forced to shoot Lascannons at them.
@lash92
The user of the Eye does. And oftentimes, they don't have much say in where their aircraft will end up.
ultimentra wrote: I wonder how a group of breachers would measure up to the current bullgryn mini death star the tournament players are all using.
Sort of apples to oranges, since Breachers aren't a dedicated melee unit. I would actually compare them to Dragoons. Dragoons are way faster, have -2 to hit, and fewer attacks; they cost roughly the same if you factor in the HQs needed to make Bullgryns shine. I would say that Bullgryns are better at holding ground and being a defensive melee unit, whereas Dragoons are very much an offensive melee unit.
Important question for me right now: 6x Dragoons or a Knight Styrix?
Important question for me right now: 6x Dragoons or a Knight Styrix?
Depends:
1. running as stygies? prob go with the Dragoons -2 to hit is nasty.
2. is it meant to be a big distraction that charges at the enemny and attracts fire to keep the gunline safe? Knight...
3. what armies are you likely to face? hordes = dragoons, knights = Styrix...
4. if you took the knight presumably you would buff it with Ion Bulkwork/relic etc?
I think the Knight is probably more survivable with Ion Shields and toughness, unless (possibly?) you take them as Stygies.
if they all survive then the dragoons would put out more damage in combat, especially against infantry?
Suzuteo wrote: Made an edit to clarify things about the Crawlers.
Agripinaa Ballistarii for anti-vehicle shooting. It was just a thought. Against -2 to hit, they are 3+. Against everything else, Cawl reroll is sort of a waste. Dominus with the Eye to reroll 1s for wounding seems good; reroll failed wounds against Chaos, which makes Renegade Knights very sad.
I specifically stated that Dakkabots and Breachers would be shooting at bikes, battlesuits, speeders, and such.
Ballustarii dont have a built in -1 only dragoons
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote: Made an edit to clarify things about the Crawlers.
Agripinaa Ballistarii for anti-vehicle shooting. It was just a thought. Against -2 to hit, they are 3+. Against everything else, Cawl reroll is sort of a waste. Dominus with the Eye to reroll 1s for wounding seems good; reroll failed wounds against Chaos, which makes Renegade Knights very sad.
I specifically stated that Dakkabots and Breachers would be shooting at bikes, battlesuits, speeders, and such.
Important question for me right now: 6x Dragoons or a Knight Styrix?
Depends:
1. running as stygies? prob go with the Dragoons -2 to hit is nasty.
2. is it meant to be a big distraction that charges at the enemny and attracts fire to keep the gunline safe? Knight...
3. what armies are you likely to face? hordes = dragoons, knights = Styrix...
4. if you took the knight presumably you would buff it with Ion Bulkwork/relic etc?
I think the Knight is probably more survivable with Ion Shields and toughness, unless (possibly?) you take them as Stygies.
if they all survive then the dragoons would put out more damage in combat, especially against infantry?
1. Yeah. Dragoons pretty much should always be run as Stygies.
2. Mm. Yeah.
3. I have to assume TAC, but the greatest melee threats are hordes.
4. Styrix has built-in 4++ shooting and 5++ fighting. Krast has excellent WLT (RR1 shooting and fighting) and relic (+1D vs. W10+, +2D vs. titans).
Well, we have only half hour for speculations so lets go wild. Id say...yes. This part looks like some kind of rotor, so it may be actually gravtank. would laugh if that was true.
Ideasweasel wrote: If it contains the fly keyword that could be useful for charging flyers hopefully
Probably wishing a bit too much
I don't think charging flyers will be supper strategy, but transport that may fly out of combat may be super valuable. Tau utilizes flying screen to great success, and so could we.
A. What it’s stats are
B. How much it costs £
C. How long we have to wait to find out
I’m guessing none of the above will be available this weekend
i would guess m12 ws6+ bs3+/4/5 s6 t7 w11 a3/d3/1 ld8 sv3+/6++
It has 4 H stabbers witch is nice. I hope tank version will have more shots than higher str. Something like icarus aray but without fly rule.
I would guess that two-four weeks before preorder.
yup looks like a hovertank. It also looks fairly large and beefy, partly because it can be a legit tank or a transport. I got a feeling this wont be a cheap thing (points) to bring to the tabel. Still buying 2 lol
Im guessing it will have the Open Topped rule because seriously that does not have a lid in transport form. In fact i wonder if the "tank" variant can be built to literally just slide over the transport part, covering it up neatly. Though with recent GW designs im not that hopeful (still annoyed at the way they did the 'naut variants)
That’s right – as some of you cunningly worked out from our earlier preview, the Adeptus Mechanicus are finally getting a dedicated transport in glorious multipart plastic! Goodbye wheels, hello barely understood, deadly technology from the Age of Darkness. The Skorpius Dunerider opens up the option for a new type of Adeptus Mechanicus army – a force of mobile infantry, whether bringing the brutal short-range firepower of the Skitarii to bear with deadly efficiency or dropping fully charged Electro-Priests right in the middle of your foe’s army.
My guess is it will gave a capacity of 10 and open topped. If that's the case I would rather throw Plasma Vangaurd in there... that suddenly becomes a very threatening base of fire that is protected, to some extent at least.
Also the .model makes me want to invade Normandy haha
Stupid Electropriests ruining my Skittari Partybus...
Oh well. Not a one gets to ride in my Duneriders!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Goldenemperor wrote: My guess is it will gave a capacity of 10 and open topped. If that's the case I would rather throw Plasma Vangaurd in there... that suddenly becomes a very threatening base of fire that is protected, to some extent at least.
I'm throwing Peltasts in there, if it doesn't require <Forge World>.
Getting to speed around and huck the indirect fire shot would be quite entertaining.
The Forgemaster wrote: the only thing I do not like about it are the heavy stubbers on the side - they will probably be fairly easy to snap off...
Ill just probably magnetize them for that reason. That said, we may be finally be able to build proper mobile force. No longer boring static castle gun line or relying on 2 stratagems or two units for mobility. That is a big step forward.
The Forgemaster wrote: the only thing I do not like about it are the heavy stubbers on the side - they will probably be fairly easy to snap off...
Ill just probably magnetize them for that reason. That said, we may be finally be able to build proper mobile force. No longer boring static castle gun line or relying on 2 stratagems or two units for mobility. That is a big step forward.
This is always what I thought AdMech was supposed to be a moderate speed power mobile gunline. We never had the transport to back that up, hopefully this transport is reasonable to make that dream come true.
Vineheart01 wrote: yup looks like a hovertank.
It also looks fairly large and beefy, partly because it can be a legit tank or a transport. I got a feeling this wont be a cheap thing (points) to bring to the tabel.
Still buying 2 lol
It's still going to be two seperate units, so I highly doubt the Disintegrator will have much of an impact on the Dunerider's point cost.
While the Disintegrator is a wait and see (especially when we already got our beloved Onager Crabs, which are just that good as a weapon plattform), the Dunerider already looks great. Not only model wise, but also because it's the one thing that we really need: A mobile, cheap, bare-bones transport that's there for getting units where they need to be while having a good 10-12 model transport capacity and some small-arms defensive firepower, without expensive and unnecessary heavy weapons inflating the point cost (*cough cough*, Chimera and Repulsor, *cough*). 4 cognis stubbers is exactly 8 points and they are worth every penny. 12 shots at 36"hitting on 3+ after moving easily earn those points back and also makes the vehicle a great charge blocker regardless whether it has FLY (highly doubtful) or a fly-lite rule that allows it to fall back from combat and shoot. Anyone trying to charge a Dunerider won't be laughing when you tell them that you're popping a certain 1CP Cognis strategem and you're now going to fire 12 S4 shots hitting on 3+ into the charging unit.
It likely counting as open topped and allowing passengers to fire out is going to make it even better. Several Calivers or Arc Rifles (or even just regular Vanguard) getting to fire out from the safety of the Dunerider will be nice. Though it'll probably end up in the vehicle having a 4+ rather than a 3+ save. On the other hand I also see the weaker save further reducing the point cost, while Shroudpsalm will make up for it during the first 1-2 turns. And particularly priests (as well as Ruststalkers and likely FW hoplites) are really going to benefit from getting a transport.
The Dunestrider is also going to give some value back to the Stygies infiltration strategem, as scout moving a transport with cargo inside is much better than what we currently have, while the -1 to hit forge world trait will be a huge boon for an open-topped transport.
As far as the point cost is concerned any guesses are a fool's errant, but I'd expect something around 60-75ish points, considering a base Chimera without turret weapon and only a hull mounted heavy bolter (8 points, as much as the 4 Cognis Stubbers) is 68 points with a transport capacity of 12 and a T7 W10 profile, with the Dunerider exchanging the 3+ save and lasgun arrays for a 3+ to hit and whatever unique properties the hovercraft propulsion is going to give.
The Forgemaster wrote: the only thing I do not like about it are the heavy stubbers on the side - they will probably be fairly easy to snap off...
Ill just probably magnetize them for that reason. That said, we may be finally be able to build proper mobile force. No longer boring static castle gun line or relying on 2 stratagems or two units for mobility. That is a big step forward.
This is always what I thought AdMech was supposed to be a moderate speed power mobile gunline. We never had the transport to back that up, hopefully this transport is reasonable to make that dream come true.
We didn't need a transport until they gutted the Skitarii's special rules in 8th. We had Relentless, allowing us to move and not suffer penalties for it.
The Forgemaster wrote: the only thing I do not like about it are the heavy stubbers on the side - they will probably be fairly easy to snap off...
Ill just probably magnetize them for that reason. That said, we may be finally be able to build proper mobile force. No longer boring static castle gun line or relying on 2 stratagems or two units for mobility. That is a big step forward.
This is always what I thought AdMech was supposed to be a moderate speed power mobile gunline. We never had the transport to back that up, hopefully this transport is reasonable to make that dream come true.
We didn't need a transport until they gutted the Skitarii's special rules in 8th. We had Relentless, allowing us to move and not suffer penalties for it.
Transport isn't only for movement. No, we didn't need that even now. What we needed was survivability of troops and infantry. What does even relentless, m 8" and any other shenanigans mean, when you can be just targeted by your opponents fire. Nothing. For any decent gun line you are just target practice. This is strength of mechanized list. They force you to chose between using antitank on transports or your tanks. Now you can invest points into calivers, and not worry that enemy mortar team will just boink them from across the table. And if so, then they spent much more resources, that they couldn't spent elsewhere, for example dragoons, balistari and so on.
Its not speed, its survivability.
The Forgemaster wrote: the only thing I do not like about it are the heavy stubbers on the side - they will probably be fairly easy to snap off...
Ill just probably magnetize them for that reason. That said, we may be finally be able to build proper mobile force. No longer boring static castle gun line or relying on 2 stratagems or two units for mobility. That is a big step forward.
This is always what I thought AdMech was supposed to be a moderate speed power mobile gunline. We never had the transport to back that up, hopefully this transport is reasonable to make that dream come true.
We didn't need a transport until they gutted the Skitarii's special rules in 8th. We had Relentless, allowing us to move and not suffer penalties for it.
Transport isn't only for movement. No, we didn't need that even now. What we needed was survivability of troops and infantry. What does even relentless, m 8" and any other shenanigans mean, when you can be just targeted by your opponents fire. Nothing. For any decent gun line you are just target practice. This is strength of mechanized list. They force you to chose between using antitank on transports or your tanks. Now you can invest points into calivers, and not worry that enemy mortar team will just boink them from across the table. And if so, then they spent much more resources, that they couldn't spent elsewhere, for example dragoons, balistari and so on.
Its not speed, its survivability.
This. Especially because Dunecrawlers seriously punish people for not focus firing them, when you can easily repair 2D3 wounds every turn with a single CP as well as the inv. save statistically absorbing every third lascannon shot that wounds. And Ironstriders, Dragoons and especially Dakkabots really benefit from not being shot at with AT firepower.
Transport isn't only for movement. No, we didn't need that even now. What we needed was survivability of troops and infantry. What does even relentless, m 8" and any other shenanigans mean, when you can be just targeted by your opponents fire. Nothing. For any decent gun line you are just target practice. This is strength of mechanized list. They force you to chose between using antitank on transports or your tanks. Now you can invest points into calivers, and not worry that enemy mortar team will just boink them from across the table. And if so, then they spent much more resources, that they couldn't spent elsewhere, for example dragoons, balistari and so on.
Its not speed, its survivability.
You do know that the initial Scout move allowed for you to royally screw with people's deployment plans yeah?
The number of times that people deployed to take advantage of my having just plopped everything down in the center of the board, then immediately got punished by my scattering stuff out was unimaginably useful.
And really, if you're having people get "boinked by mortar teams" from across the table that's on you.
Transport isn't only for movement. No, we didn't need that even now. What we needed was survivability of troops and infantry. What does even relentless, m 8" and any other shenanigans mean, when you can be just targeted by your opponents fire. Nothing. For any decent gun line you are just target practice. This is strength of mechanized list. They force you to chose between using antitank on transports or your tanks. Now you can invest points into calivers, and not worry that enemy mortar team will just boink them from across the table. And if so, then they spent much more resources, that they couldn't spent elsewhere, for example dragoons, balistari and so on.
Its not speed, its survivability.
You do know that the initial Scout move allowed for you to royally screw with people's deployment plans yeah?
The number of times that people deployed to take advantage of my having just plopped everything down in the center of the board, then immediately got punished by my scattering stuff out was unimaginably useful.
Cool, and if you got second turn, you still will be shoot. Yeah, you can out position and outmaneuver your opponent leaving him vulnerable to your attack. That still doesn't prevent him from hitting you if he have tools for that. And that is if your opponent took your bait because he didn't asked if you can reposition before match.
And really, if you're having people get "boinked by mortar teams" from across the table that's on you.
48" range and no los shooting mortar team or wyvern beg to differ. Explain me how thats on me? That is enough to cover midfield completely, while siting safely behind Los blocking terrain and at the opposing end of table. There are only there options to prevent that from happening, either deploy your troops out of range and never move out of your deployment zone, or put them into transport/bunker. This or saturate bodies to the point when it doesn't matter if they are shooted of the board. Now we actually have luxury to use transport. Now vanguards with calivers are much more viable option, same with corpuscari.
The Forgemaster wrote: Maybe this can be answer to not being able to Dagger the Kataphrons if the transport is indeed open-topped...?
I could totally see Duneriders and Kataphrons working the way Chimeras and Ogryn do, with a single Kataphron taking the space of 3 normal models.
Hopefully the Transport has at least 12 slots for models then.
(Or maybe it could transport a certain number of wounds e.g. Sicarians take up two spaces, Kataphrons 3, and a Dominus 5...?)
It's beautiful in the AdMech way of beautiful. I'll name my first one the Holy Brick of Destruction.
And it looks like what I wanted, a cheap (we'll see about that) box with a few guns to transport my dudes. I really didn't believe in the open-topped because no Imperium transport that I'm aware of has this feature, but it looks like it'll be the case. Vanguards and Corpuscarii are going to love it.
Given dual-purpose kit, probably a 65-75USD box im guessing.
I could see the tank being T7 but i highly doubt the transport is T7 if its opentopped. Definitely would have a 3+ save and the usual 6++.
Also having a thing for mini-priests to repair would be useful since other than being super cheap HQ slots i never seem to find a use for them, since they cant fix Kataphrons or give rerolls.
I love how weird it looks. They're D-Day hover-landers.
Confused about the tank configuration, given we have Crawlers and Ironstriders already, but I'll take it.
Oh, looking forward to a mechanized triple Battalion list. Especially if the transports don't need <Forgeworld>. Then I can just take 4 of them in a Stygies unit, then first turn scout move my entire army 9" up the board.
I am guessing that they have a transport capacity of 12-16.
Whats your opinion on our new opportunities and what to do with transports?
To transport I would say the best are maybe:
Hoplites, if it has no forgeworld requirement.
Skitarii, I would say rangers as they are cheaper and have RF, with plasma, maybe even snipers if they can still shoot with it?
E-priests ofc.
Ruststalkers...... not so much.
On a side note:
I get a transuranic/neutronlaser mixed feeling of the big gun.
Im not really a fan of so many stubbers, but its alright for clearing objectives I guess.
Suzuteo wrote:I love how weird it looks. They're D-Day hover-landers.
Confused about the tank configuration, given we have Crawlers and Ironstriders already, but I'll take it.
Oh, looking forward to a mechanized triple Battalion list. Especially if the transports don't need <Forgeworld>. Then I can just take 4 of them in a Stygies unit, then first turn scout move my entire army 9" up the board.
I am guessing that they have a transport capacity of 12-16.
I would be pleasantly surprised if it would have capacity bigger than 12. Such vehicles are rare. Most of the time they follow rule of squad+(min size of troop squad+1 or max size of troop squad+2).
Why are you confused about tank option? We have so limited roster every addition is welcomed, and that could push us further with armored type list. Look on the Guard if you need example. Yes we do have onagers, but what if we had another good tank? I find ridiculous when people say "duh we have Onagers, we don't need another tank". Thats like not understanding principle of doubling down. Its not about its weapons, but rest of the profile. Lets be good tank army. I won't be mad if we could beet guard in tank game.
0XFallen wrote:Whats your opinion on our new opportunities and what to do with transports?
To transport I would say the best are maybe:
Hoplites, if it has no forgeworld requirement.
Skitarii, I would say rangers as they are cheaper and have RF, with plasma, maybe even snipers if they can still shoot with it?
E-priests ofc.
Ruststalkers...... not so much.
On a side note:
I get a transuranic/neutronlaser mixed feeling of the big gun.
Im not really a fan of so many stubbers, but its alright for clearing objectives I guess.
I don't understand fallen why you didn't mention Vanguards. They are perfect for this, and their weapon greatly benefit from being safe until they are within 18" And once they are out of transport they may help other assault units reach break points for their S. And for the same reason Peltas may be way to go, having nice weapon on frail body they are perfect candidates if allowed.
I suspect it will be forge world locked, no reason not to, maybe allowing for <secutari> keyword.
Suzuteo wrote:I love how weird it looks. They're D-Day hover-landers.
Confused about the tank configuration, given we have Crawlers and Ironstriders already, but I'll take it.
Oh, looking forward to a mechanized triple Battalion list. Especially if the transports don't need <Forgeworld>. Then I can just take 4 of them in a Stygies unit, then first turn scout move my entire army 9" up the board.
I am guessing that they have a transport capacity of 12-16.
I would be pleasantly surprised if it would have capacity bigger than 12. Such vehicles are rare. Most of the time they follow rule of squad+(min size of troop squad+1 or max size of troop squad+2).
Why are you confused about tank option? We have so limited roster every addition is welcomed, and that could push us further with armored type list. Look on the Guard if you need example. Yes we do have onagers, but what if we had another good tank? I find ridiculous when people say "duh we have Onagers, we don't need another tank". Thats like not understanding principle of doubling down. Its not about its weapons, but rest of the profile. Lets be good tank army. I won't be mad if we could beet guard in tank game.
0XFallen wrote:Whats your opinion on our new opportunities and what to do with transports?
To transport I would say the best are maybe:
Hoplites, if it has no forgeworld requirement.
Skitarii, I would say rangers as they are cheaper and have RF, with plasma, maybe even snipers if they can still shoot with it?
E-priests ofc.
Ruststalkers...... not so much.
On a side note:
I get a transuranic/neutronlaser mixed feeling of the big gun.
Im not really a fan of so many stubbers, but its alright for clearing objectives I guess.
I don't understand fallen why you didn't mention Vanguards. They are perfect for this, and their weapon greatly benefit from being safe until they are within 18" And once they are out of transport they may help other assault units reach break points for their S. And for the same reason Peltas may be way to go, having nice weapon on frail body they are perfect candidates if allowed.
I suspect it will be forge world locked, no reason not to, maybe allowing for <secutari> keyword.
If its open topped I I would prefer 2 5 men rangers with plasma, as they are cheaper and as good in 15". They dont need assault in a transport and might as well stay as long in it as possible.
Well, flying tanks are at a distinct disadvantage right now due to Crimson Hunters showing no sign of going away. Especially if these are T7, which I expect they will be.
If we have transports, we probably won't have as much use for Vanguard, whose primary value comes from being able to advance and shoot. They might be used for their -1T aura though.
I doubt were getting open topped rules. There's no fire platform or slots for them to realistically shoot out of. Odds are were getting the heavy stubbers and that's it.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I doubt were getting open topped rules. There's no fire platform or slots for them to realistically shoot out of. Odds are were getting the heavy stubbers and that's it.
Then went model it with a clearly open top? Could have put a roof on easilly. I would expect it to be able to transport kataphrons as well judging by the ramp for tank tracks and it's slightly bigger than normal size.
If its neither of these things the design and rules team were clearly on different planets. Again.
My argument is not every open topped model actually gets open topped rules. Think of the big ol 40 man FW carrier guard gets for krieg. That doesn't get the open topped shooting rules. I could see this being the same way
Also if the transport gets heavy phosphors that will be amazing. They may be the smaller phosphor blasters the kataphrons get but even those aren't bad.
Its definitely a heavy stubber, phosphor blasters have 3 rings before the muzzle and heavy phosphor blasters have 2 rings. The flared muzzle is also seen on cognis heavy stubbers where as phosphor have a slit in their muzzle.
This vehicle will probably carry 12 models, with a movement of 12". It wont be open topped as their is no was the troops inside can fire out (look at the two gunners, they cant even pop their heads over the top). As for its profile i imagine it will be like a rhino with a couple more wounds due to its size. Points cost i think it will be more expensive than most transports, sitting somewhere in the 90 to 100pts range. It looks like it has an upgraded broad spectrum data tether (look at the size of its antennas!) so maybe it will give out a buff to nearby units that isnt just +1 morale. Im hoping it with have pseudo fly in that it can retreat and shoot or it can shoot its stubbers into anything its in melee with as a point defence system. It could also have a type of flare shield (knowing admech) so that may override any thoughts of it being opened topped.
As for the tank variant, i dont know how it will fair with its competitor the Onager. Its main rival will be a neutronager and atm this thing has 1 more stubber, a missile launcher of some sort (hopefully something better than just a standard krak missile) and a weapon to me that looks like a solid shot type of cannon with its muzzle break. It has the beginnings of neutron laser but the end totally throws that off so who knows... it doesnt look energy based to me. The other weapon type looks more interesting to me, it kind of looks like a Admechy Ion cannon or even some sort of quake cannon. This would allow it to achieve a different role that doesnt step on the toes of Balistarii and Onagers and could help more with heavier infantry. I imagine because of its heavier armoured front that this will be our toughness 8 vehicle with 13-14 wounds and once again it looks like it has an enhanced BSDT. It could very well buff near by vehicles with a buff to hit or wound (be it a reroll or a modifier). I suspect it will be pushing 180pts as in my eyes it kind of resembles a Plague Burst Crawler in that it is a heavy tank not a medium vehicle like a Onager.
What i am reallllllly hoping for is that these 2 vehicles warrant us a new codex that gives us some more tools to use and a buff to certain units (Ruststalkers, Enginseers) and adds some more units to our roaster (Skitarii HQ, a mobile cav type unit, kind of like GSC with their new bikes, a heavier infantry unit like praetorians and a infantry unit with heavy weapons ((the name escaped me of what they were called in the old lore, hyspasists i believe)) and include the Manipulus into the Codex officially with a updated points cost that makes him more viable and more like how they described him (in between a enginseer and dominus in cost). And this is also more of a wish list type of thing, i would also love to see use have the new servitor with grav cannon and the new tech priest avialable to us from that new box game coming out with the new primaris psyker, crusader and rogue trader.
I dont think they would just release 2 vehicles and leave it like that. CSM got a new book, i imagine Space Marines are close behind to get a new codex with their vanguard units and the new repulsor and then it will be us. We are one of the early gen codexes and you can really see it in our army design. Having a book more internally balanced like Dark Eldar, Eldar and GSC would be a dream come true for me.
We're dangerously close to wish listing and not tactics, but behind grey knights and marines, were definitely in need of a v2 codex. Between all the new units and the desperately needed tweaks to our FW traits and relics, we need it pretty bad. Plus our codex has been heavily faqd and has 4 new knights that need to be added as well
Lol. I don't think we've ever had it better. Our rules are bad, sure, but we pretty much have the most point efficient LOS shooting in the game other than pre-nerf Ynnari.
Suzuteo wrote: Lol. I don't think we've ever had it better. Our rules are bad, sure, but we pretty much have the most point efficient LOS shooting in the game other than pre-nerf Ynnari.
My 7th Ed Skitarii had it better We may very well have the most point efficient LOS shooting but thats relying solely on your Kastelans and if your like me you tend to go more towards a more fluid gunline that uses movement to best of its ability. That has always been the difference between us and Tau, we can move and still fire at peak efficiency whilst the greyskins have to hunker down, release a volley and then advance. Yeah Tau have Shas'O, Riptides (and FW toys) but most of what they have benefits from standing still. Thats what ive always loved about Skitarii, the relentless advance that would out shoot Guard and Tau, thats not so prevalent now.
So hopefully this new transport will breath some new life into our Skitarii instead of them just being a chaff wall. (i have 4 units of 10 Vanguard with 3 plasma calivers each that have been on the shelf since the start of 8th, i only use Rangers now).
If it's not open-topped as I still believe (even if I had my doubts at first), there's still lots of use for this vehicle, given it's not costed absurdly. Let's assume it can transport all <Infantry> from our codex:
- Vanguards: a clear choice for me, their base gun is really good for a base gun, more than once drowning my target in S3 has produced results, and the 2D on 6s is really great. It's anecdotal but I wiped a squad of Hellblasters with 30 Radium shots + Cawl + WoM. Either way, a squad of 10 or two squads of 5 with full Plasma Calivers can be dangerous when disembarked. Plus, they can be used to help in CC by charging something you want to debuff with -1T along with a true CC unit.
- Rangers: why not, though their guns have a decent enough range. Disembarking them close range would be the equivalent of 20 bolter shots and this is not the most sought after weapon. I think they're already great on foot, I mostly use mine as Snipers or cheap screen either way.
- Infiltrators: depends how many fit inside, I estimate they'll take two spots so a min squad only. Could make a move of 11" plus 2d6 charge distance when disembarking so it's more reliable than DS charging.
- Ruststalkers: probably a big no, a unit of 5 is just way less good than 5 Fulgurites, I've shown the numbers, and it's likely to be able to fit 10 Priests for 5 Ruststalkers. Sorry you need better rules guys.
- Corpuscarii: an alternative to Lucius striking them ? Mass S5 shooting is arguably one of the best weapons as it can wound everything on a 3 or 5 max, disregarding Invulnerable saves by saturation. At 140 pts for 30 shots on target on average they'll be dangerous.
- Fulgurites: a net winner, they're already great in a Drill, but now they can disembark and move faster as it'll move faster than 8". I can see lists spamming them like the Berserker Rhino Rush already. It'll be like 160 + 100ish points for a Skorpius full of them.
- Hoplites: never played with them but I'm seriously considering despite 56€ for a squad. Give them +1S canticle and they hit like Autocannons on vehicles. 90 pts is cheap too, I'll proxy them once or twice to give myself an idea about them when the Skorpius hits the shelves.
- Peltasts: still don't understand how to use them. In the context of the Skorpius a squad of 10 could either fire 40 S3 shots at 12", 20 S3 mortar shots, or 10 S4 AP-2 shots at -1 to hit. In my meta they're not needed as there's almost no mortar player. Curious to hear your thoughts about them though.
Given the shape of the Skorpius it can be made into a LoS-blocking wall too, for protection of our gunline. Really can't wait to see its datasheet, I'll probably buy one on preorder.
Well, nothing can beat the crazy amount of free stuff and perks we got from WarCon.
Actually, as of CA 2018, Kataphrons are the most efficient shooting unit. And we have Lascannon Ballistarii, which are great for shooting down aircraft and tanks at scale. Or Icarus Crawlers, for those that want to save some CP.
I mean, consider that the price for 3x Predators (12 Lascannons) is 540 points to our 480 points, and they aren't squadroned, but you need to take 3x to use the Killshot stratagem (which is not as great as +2 to hit; and once one dies, you instantly lose it), and they have damage tables. Even 12x Lascannons for Guard Heavies would cost 312, and they are wayyy less durable and the best bonus they get for their BS4 is +1 for a 3x unit (but they have to be Vostroyan).
Anyhow, Kastelans are still a good "fix-it-all" solution, though we definitely don't need to run 6 anymore.
If it's not open-topped as I still believe (even if I had my doubts at first), there's still lots of use for this vehicle, given it's not costed absurdly. Let's assume it can transport all <Infantry> from our codex:
- Vanguards: a clear choice for me, their base gun is really good for a base gun, more than once drowning my target in S3 has produced results, and the 2D on 6s is really great. It's anecdotal but I wiped a squad of Hellblasters with 30 Radium shots + Cawl + WoM. Either way, a squad of 10 or two squads of 5 with full Plasma Calivers can be dangerous when disembarked. Plus, they can be used to help in CC by charging something you want to debuff with -1T along with a true CC unit.
- Rangers: why not, though their guns have a decent enough range. Disembarking them close range would be the equivalent of 20 bolter shots and this is not the most sought after weapon. I think they're already great on foot, I mostly use mine as Snipers or cheap screen either way.
- Infiltrators: depends how many fit inside, I estimate they'll take two spots so a min squad only. Could make a move of 11" plus 2d6 charge distance when disembarking so it's more reliable than DS charging.
- Ruststalkers: probably a big no, a unit of 5 is just way less good than 5 Fulgurites, I've shown the numbers, and it's likely to be able to fit 10 Priests for 5 Ruststalkers. Sorry you need better rules guys.
- Corpuscarii: an alternative to Lucius striking them ? Mass S5 shooting is arguably one of the best weapons as it can wound everything on a 3 or 5 max, disregarding Invulnerable saves by saturation. At 140 pts for 30 shots on target on average they'll be dangerous.
- Fulgurites: a net winner, they're already great in a Drill, but now they can disembark and move faster as it'll move faster than 8". I can see lists spamming them like the Berserker Rhino Rush already. It'll be like 160 + 100ish points for a Skorpius full of them.
- Hoplites: never played with them but I'm seriously considering despite 56€ for a squad. Give them +1S canticle and they hit like Autocannons on vehicles. 90 pts is cheap too, I'll proxy them once or twice to give myself an idea about them when the Skorpius hits the shelves.
- Peltasts: still don't understand how to use them. In the context of the Skorpius a squad of 10 could either fire 40 S3 shots at 12", 20 S3 mortar shots, or 10 S4 AP-2 shots at -1 to hit. In my meta they're not needed as there's almost no mortar player. Curious to hear your thoughts about them though.
Given the shape of the Skorpius it can be made into a LoS-blocking wall too, for protection of our gunline. Really can't wait to see its datasheet, I'll probably buy one on preorder.
Im going to stick by the idea that it definitively isnt opened topped. There is no way anyone inside can shoot out, when you look at vehicles that are opened topped (Venoms, Raiders, Trukks, Battlewagons, Goliath Trucks) these all have sections where the men embarked can actually shoot out of, this boat doesnt. As for the most optimal units it could carry, I will go for Vanguard, both types of Electropriests and Ruststalkers. Rangers, Kataphrons both have the range to stay in a good firing lane and rain down lead, Infiltrators have their own ability to deepstrike which whilst it can be screened out, we can easily remove screens as Admech so they should still be used as a surgical strike.
I really reallyyyy think Hoplites and Peltasts will not be able to go in the Dunerider due to not having the Forgeworld Keyword (unless they get an update from FW when and if we get a new codex). The likely hood is that GW hasnt designed this transport with those two forge world units in mind. If they were however, then both types would also be key units to slap inside. The transport will most likely count Kataphrons as 3 models for the purposes of transport space or not allow them to be transported entirely so who knows, i personally wouldnt throw them in there, others might.
Vanguard will benefit hugely as they can then mitigate their short range (if your not Metalica), disembark and bring radiums and calivers to bare. Fulgurites will be the next clear winner with them getting a safe ride up to the front that isnt a FW Terrax Drill. Corpuscarii would be ok in it, especially for mars players using Wrath of Mars on them, but they wouldnt be my go to pick. Rust Stalkers would benefit from the transport but they are in a conflicting role with Fulgurites that just do everything they do better. Rust Stalkers need to get an improvement or we need to see the return of Dunestrider so they can get a +3" to advance and then be allowed to charge after. They should be more like Genestealers which would make them more viable and fearsome.
If it lets me make use of my Vanguard more efficiently i will gladly take 1 or 2, I would love nothing more than having them like the good ol' days in 7th but that will never happen with the changes to both radium carbines and plasma calivers this addition.
Suzuteo wrote: Well, nothing can beat the crazy amount of free stuff and perks we got from WarCon.
Actually, as of CA 2018, Kataphrons are the most efficient shooting unit. And we have Lascannon Ballistarii, which are great for shooting down aircraft and tanks at scale. Or Icarus Crawlers, for those that want to save some CP.
I mean, consider that the price for 3x Predators (12 Lascannons) is 540 points to our 480 points, and they aren't squadroned, but you need to take 3x to use the Killshot stratagem (which is not as great as +2 to hit; and once one dies, you instantly lose it), and they have damage tables. Even 12x Lascannons for Guard Heavies would cost 312, and they are wayyy less durable and the best bonus they get for their BS4 is +1 for a 3x unit (but they have to be Vostroyan).
Anyhow, Kastelans are still a good "fix-it-all" solution, though we definitely don't need to run 6 anymore.
I never actually used WarCon wasnt my thing, i was always more Skitarii than Cult Mechanicus. I quite often smashed apart WarCons with just my normal Skits! I did use Cawl when he came out and i made use of the relic servo skull that gave tank hunter or monster hunter. Ive only really started using Kataphrons now because CA2018 and the Servitor Maniple, if it werent for that theyd still be in my display cabinet gathering dust.
Yea i agree Balistarii are pretty dag good and so are plasma Destroyers now, I do have the magnetised options for the Icarus Array but I have always been a Neutron lover myself, ive had my Onagers 1 shot Plague Burst Crawlers, Leman Russ Tank Commanders, Hemlocks, Ravagers and Wave Serpents. And it happens more often than not, maybe the Onagers love me (I have 9... sadly we can no longer squadron them...). When ive used the Icarus Array i dont really get as good as a return with them and i cant remember any amazing kill shots ive had with them when compared to my Neutron Lasers. But if they work for other people thats great! I never shun people would use the Icarus Array, i think they are both equally good in what they do.
I actually think that's a part of the appeal of AdMech. We have so many bizarre, hideous design motifs. A scuttling (and now hovering) tide of mechanical horrors.
I actually think that's a part of the appeal of AdMech. We have so many bizarre, hideous design motifs. A scuttling (and now hovering) tide of mechanical horrors.
The only thing i would remove is the 2 rudders at the back. They look quite silly, and yeaaaah they steer the vehicle but i would rather have the ancient techdohicky propel the vehicle just like the MTT Droid Carrier, BAW Heavy Artillery Gun and AAT from Star Wars.
Considering using rangers over vanguards, remember that yes they do have better shoots in RF range, but thats just 15". It will often mean that if you have RF range, so will your opponent. Using vanguards at outskirts of their range was always crucial, so they won't e charged easily, and won't receive rf shoots without your opponent overextending his units.
I also love potential to limit drop numbers if the size is 12. Assuming that priest can catch a ride and thats potential -4 drops for our lists with double battalion.
a) ITs hideous. i dont like it.
b) better have some form of fly or is garbage.
c)Better have 12+ slots or no kataphrons inside and im sure they dont want them inside its op...
d) When its a transport it would be a normal one T7 6+ invu ad mech etc etc nothing special with stubbers.
e) When it tranforms i bet the missiles are d6 5 -1 1 ingore los. OR what the point having another T7 tank. The turret can be something good but Los we are looking for.
smoke and broad spectrum are classik.
overall i dont like it i pressume i have ot buy it but im not happy. Hope the profile proves me wrong.
Suzuteo wrote:Isn't that only important if they do Stygies? Everyone uses the new CA deployment rules, right?
Still, a mechanized list with 100% of the list in vehicles or large units being infiltrated is going to be fun.
I suspect low 100s range. I mean, it's 4 heavy stubbers and a box.
Well its use standard deployment in 3 out of 6 missions so its still in use, other tournaments also mix deployments so it still isn't neglectible.
Yoda79 wrote:a) ITs hideous. i dont like it.
b) better have some form of fly or is garbage.
c)Better have 12+ slots or no kataphrons inside and im sure they dont want them inside its op...
d) When its a transport it would be a normal one T7 6+ invu ad mech etc etc nothing special with stubbers.
e) When it tranforms i bet the missiles are d6 5 -1 1 ingore los. OR what the point having another T7 tank. The turret can be something good but Los we are looking for.
smoke and broad spectrum are classik.
overall i dont like it i pressume i have ot buy it but im not happy. Hope the profile proves me wrong.
What is the point of having another tank? Well rule of 3? And guard seems doing fine using all of its armored vehicles and tanks. It would be nice if it had no LoS shooting, but if it just have other profiles than Neutrons at reasonable price it will be good. And about fly, its not likely and that may be good, because 12 capacity transport with fly would be pricey, like 160pts. Id rather have cheap REQ, than another overpriced unit.
If it doesn’t have fly why would I not just use drills?
Ignoring cost and personal taste of model aesthetic
Movment, drils do have abysmal movemet of 8/6/4", and you want them stuck in combat(eventually blow them up causing mortal wounds) and not move around to capture objectives and so on. Drills are actually good in CC, but that may be detrimental in pining tactic i you want to pin stretched unit from both sides, because you want to actually NOT kill models. Than you can fall back, and not miss to much on stubbed shooting, while drill misses opportunity for another charge.
And you can't really ignore cost. If this one is around 75-80 pts naked like rhino, while drill is 134 in base, you have three transports in price of two drills.
Drill is element of assault, cheeper transports are just means to deliver. Drills should be charging and wrecking havoc in your opponent lines, while this transport will probably better ridding around midfield either with its load, or after it unloaded its assault troops.
If it doesn’t have fly why would I not just use drills?
Ignoring cost and personal taste of model aesthetic
Movment, drils do have abysmal movemet of 8/6/4", and you want them stuck in combat(eventually blow them up causing mortal wounds) and not move around to capture objectives and so on. Drills are actually good in CC, but that may be detrimental in pining tactic i you want to pin stretched unit from both sides, because you want to actually NOT kill models. Than you can fall back, and not miss to much on stubbed shooting, while drill misses opportunity for another charge.
And you can't really ignore cost. If this one is around 75-80 pts naked like rhino, while drill is 134 in base, you have three transports in price of two drills.
Drill is element of assault, cheeper transports are just means to deliver. Drills should be charging and wrecking havoc in your opponent lines, while this transport will probably better ridding around midfield either with its load, or after it unloaded its assault troops.
It's difficult to compare the two vehicles when all the data we have for the Skorpius is speculation. Assuming it doesn't Fly, I'd say it's still two different purposes. The Drill being a good CC threat and deep-striking means you'll want to have it starting in reserves, and now that we can't DS before T2 the passengers don't start doing stuff until T2, T3 if they're Fulgurites and so have no shooting. So your opponent has 2-3 turns to react to the presence of the Drill and its passengers before they start being useful. In my opinion the Drill was a good choice for Fulgurites back when we could Infiltrate them and so charge T1, now that it's gone I feel like it's limited to embarking shooting units. There's the option of starting the Drill on the table but the 8" move isn't that appealing.
With a 12" move Skorpius and the lack of serious weaponry I FEEL like it's going to be less of a threat for the opponent to shoot at, though it depends. We have the advantage, unlike other armies, to have a lot of targets for anti-tank weaponry and so the targets are less obvious to our opponents. What it brings to the table is SPEED, we need fast units to have board control and if it can contain 1-2 units that'll disembark and contest objectives it's good. Kataphrons are slow because D3" Advance, Skitarii are flimsy, Infiltrators usually die after DS. With this transport we can really start thinking about a mechanised force, a mobile gunline. The elements are already there, we just lacked speed, otherwise our Onagers and Kataphrons can move and shoot.
Speaking of mechanised force, I can't believe I'm reading comments wondering why we need another tank, because Onagers are taken by 3 max and if we want a mobile gunline Dakkabots are out of the list, with 3 additional vehicles we'll have more options and won't need to stress out about screening a fixed Cawl Castle that shuts off as soon as a goon reach them in CC, I'm glad it broadens our list building choices and so reinforce the Pure AdMech doctrina.
you cant count on balistarii. Their Role is for Games you either dont have..
a) Helverins and you should take with knight.
b) you gotta take stygies and for a bizzare reason you need 23 icarus and have nod estroyers to go for lasc balistarii.
And dont start spamming their nice but their role is not atm main pick.
I have extensively test them and they are nice vs neutron but you must not take them as prior pick.
Yep I'm more and more interested in Ironstriders lately, post CA18. Problem is the € cost and transportation of the models, my metal boxes for magnetic transport are already beyond capacity when I transport my whole 2000 pts with 3 Dragoons and 3 Onagers, let alone Cawl and the Fistellans. With my new job I'll be able to widen the ranks of my army little by little, but my next purchase is definitely the new transport. Then I'll figure a way to transport my army...
Plasmaphrons are definitely our most efficient anti-vehicle shooting, but they have this unpleasantly high chance of killing themselves with every shot against -2 to hit, even in cases of A) +1 to hit and reroll 1s and B) reroll all.
Lascannon Ironstriders are more efficient than Icarus Crawlers against -2 to hit flying if you bring at least 4. The +2 to hit and rerolls makes a huge difference. Obviously, they have different secondary priorities. Crawlers do better against infantry. Ironstriders do better against vehicles, including T8 tanks. So you have to take a bit more anti-infantry. I went with the 5x Dakkabot and 6x Dragoons. But even then, a bit worried about my horde matchup, but you can't have things all ways; if I get the sense that horde is the thing, then I might just go with 3x Icarus Crawler over the 4x Ballistarii.
Again why would you not take Plasma when you can buff
a) Robots to help out.
b) + 1 more from vigilus
c)D6 plasma shots even if not overcharged the amount of damage + robots + buffs
Why would you invest in so many expenive units. lasc balistarii is a trap better off with a crawler. I understand what you say but Crawlers get the +1 automatic have 10 sots can be used vs infantry .
So if you go vs Fliers then you should go icarus move shoot etc. Balistarii are cheap options for games with less options.
You wont get much with lascannons. as you said if the meta goes for planes and gatling guns then dont spend points in balistarii .
just my advice you can test all you like i have and its not as you blieve it is.
Because I would need to take an extra Mars Dominus and a unit of Mars Plasmaphron for this. And that is less efficient than just taking the Lascannon Ballistarii. It's 90 dead points and 2 CP per turn to enable +1 to hit.
Lascannon Ballistarii aren't expensive. They are actually the second most point efficient Lascannon unit behind HWTs and just ahead of Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought. But HWTs get instantly mulched by any indirect fire.
Again, because the Lascannon Ballistarii are more efficient against Eldar aircraft and Wave Serpents. Crawlers are still great, but they are not optimal for the role I have in mind. I understand that this is overinvestment to counter minus to hit, but I am intentionally overinvesting here because I think they are the worst matchup we can have with a primarily BS4+ army.
I will test it, but you know me. I have got an entire spreadsheet calculating Lasc Ballistarii vs. Plasmaphron vs. Icarus Crawler in Mars, Stygies, Ryza (for Plasmaphron only), and Agripinaa setups. Mars Lasc Ballistarii is the best choice for anti-aircraft. They have got the point efficiency, the range, and no overheating drawbacks. Ryzaphron is the most efficient anti-tank shooting IN THE ENTIRE GAME right now. (I mean, seriously, they melt through Leman Russes like a blowtorch through butter. I actually cannot find another unit with better point efficiency considering you only need to invest 90 points in a single HQ to give +1 to hit, +1 to wound, +1D on top of an already efficient body.) But not the best against Eldari aircraft. Mars and Agripinaa Plasmaphron are pretty good, but not much more than Lasc Ballistarii. Agripinaa Lasc Ballistarii is more efficient than Mars against vehicles, but less against aircraft.
deffrekka wrote: Its definitely a heavy stubber, phosphor blasters have 3 rings before the muzzle and heavy phosphor blasters have 2 rings. The flared muzzle is also seen on cognis heavy stubbers where as phosphor have a slit in their muzzle.
Why would they put put two Heavy Stubbers on that dont match the other Heavy Stubbers in look. That would be kind of a weird thing to do.
Makes me think... A squad of 10 Ryza Vanguards with Data-tether and 3 Plasma Calivers, disembarking from the Skorpius, shooting with Ryza stratagem + Protector stratagem, with a small reroll 1s to Hit Canticle can potentially do 18D on overcharge with max luck. Would make a small Ryza Battalion more attractive, with two squads of those and a Ryzaphron blob maybe ?
Aaranis wrote: Makes me think... A squad of 10 Ryza Vanguards with Data-tether and 3 Plasma Calivers, disembarking from the Skorpius, shooting with Ryza stratagem + Protector stratagem, with a small reroll 1s to Hit Canticle can potentially do 18D on overcharge with max luck. Would make a small Ryza Battalion more attractive, with two squads of those and a Ryzaphron blob maybe ?
Depends a lot on if the Skorpius accepts all Skitarii without regard to FW or not. If this is the case, a soup that has Ryza Skitarii with Calivers combined with Stygies Skorpiuses would be ideal. Instantly infiltrate 9" up the board, dump infantry, use the transports as a wall against charging.
So I have a big Apocalypse sized game coming up shortly - multple people per team 2k each (not sure what the others are bringing yet - could be anything).
I was thinking somthing like a double battalion of AdMech 1x Ryza 1x Stygies
as well as a SHD of Krast Knights - mainly so I can take the Headsman Mark relic. should I go for the Valiant or a Warden (the remaining knights are armigers?
does anyone have any other advice regarding the AdMech side of things (I have quite a lot of AdMech stuff, so can swap out most of anything)?
Suzuteo wrote: @Forgemaster Given it's Apocalypse, I would say you need more Ryzaphrons. As in, 3x9 of them. Haha.
I could drop an onager and a dragoon for another 3?
but i wanted a TAC list because as mentioned in the post it is teams and each team member has 2k to go with. but if everyone focusses on anti-tank then if opponants have nids/orks etc. they will swarm accross the board...
The Forgemaster wrote: but i wanted a TAC list because as mentioned in the post it is teams and each team member has 2k to go with. but if everyone focusses on anti-tank then if opponants have nids/orks etc. they will swarm accross the board...
Hordes are awful in Apocalypse or Epic games. This is because they are not space efficient at all. Not to mention playtime efficient. In any case, I am sure your teammates can bring better anti-horde. But I guess you could bring Dakkabots? As for Krast Knights, the Crusader is the best bet for shooting and Styrix for a well-rounded budget option. I would do Raven for Castellans. Not so sure about Valiant. Probably Hawkshroud; it has to be Imperial.
The Forgemaster wrote: but i wanted a TAC list because as mentioned in the post it is teams and each team member has 2k to go with. but if everyone focusses on anti-tank then if opponants have nids/orks etc. they will swarm accross the board...
Hordes are awful in Apocalypse or Epic games. This is because they are not space efficient at all. Not to mention playtime efficient. In any case, I am sure your teammates can bring better anti-horde. But I guess you could bring Dakkabots? As for Krast Knights, the Crusader is the best bet for shooting and Styrix for a well-rounded budget option. I would do Raven for Castellans. Not so sure about Valiant. Probably Hawkshroud; it has to be Imperial.
Thanks for the advice, I will have to think on it.
deffrekka wrote: Its definitely a heavy stubber, phosphor blasters have 3 rings before the muzzle and heavy phosphor blasters have 2 rings. The flared muzzle is also seen on cognis heavy stubbers where as phosphor have a slit in their muzzle.
Why would they put put two Heavy Stubbers on that dont match the other Heavy Stubbers in look. That would be kind of a weird thing to do.
The heavy stubbers are identical to the ones on the Onager, from the slits down the side of the barrel for cooling, the singular ring before the muzzle and the actually gun housing. As for the boat, it doesn't really have 2 different heavy stubbers, two are pintle mounted 2 are hard point mounted.
If your wishing they are anything but stubbers your gonna be quite disappointed haha! They are literally carbon copies of the ones on the Onager. The only thing that is different is the gun casing on the stubbers attached to the servitor but that's because it's a hard point mount.
Suzuteo wrote: Well, flying tanks are at a distinct disadvantage right now due to Crimson Hunters showing no sign of going away. Especially if these are T7, which I expect they will be.
If we have transports, we probably won't have as much use for Vanguard, whose primary value comes from being able to advance and shoot. They might be used for their -1T aura though.
Wat? The ONLY use is advancing and shooting?The firepower you can get out of a Vanguard squad loaded up with Plasma is very good for their points. The only reason you dont see them is because they get punked off the board because they have no transport.
I swear, AdMech players are the whiniest bunch, never happy and doom saying before the model has even hit the floor. Christ alive it's insane.
Suzuteo wrote: Well, flying tanks are at a distinct disadvantage right now due to Crimson Hunters showing no sign of going away. Especially if these are T7, which I expect they will be.
If we have transports, we probably won't have as much use for Vanguard, whose primary value comes from being able to advance and shoot. They might be used for their -1T aura though.
Wat? The ONLY use is advancing and shooting?The firepower you can get out of a Vanguard squad loaded up with Plasma is very good for their points. The only reason you dont see them is because they get punked off the board because they have no transport.
I swear, AdMech players are the whiniest bunch, never happy and doom saying before the model has even hit the floor. Christ alive it's insane.
Right. I'm saying Vanguard can slog it faster than Rangers. That is their primary advantage. Once we get transports, Rangers with Calivers might be better.
I'm actually one of the more optimistic ones. Lol.
Suzuteo wrote: Well, flying tanks are at a distinct disadvantage right now due to Crimson Hunters showing no sign of going away. Especially if these are T7, which I expect they will be.
If we have transports, we probably won't have as much use for Vanguard, whose primary value comes from being able to advance and shoot. They might be used for their -1T aura though.
Wat? The ONLY use is advancing and shooting?The firepower you can get out of a Vanguard squad loaded up with Plasma is very good for their points. The only reason you dont see them is because they get punked off the board because they have no transport.
I swear, AdMech players are the whiniest bunch, never happy and doom saying before the model has even hit the floor. Christ alive it's insane.
Right. I'm saying Vanguard can slog it faster than Rangers. That is their primary advantage. Once we get transports, Rangers with Calivers might be better.
I'm actually one of the more optimistic ones. Lol.
I think the main advantage is that Vanguard don't lose their mobility advantage just because they are sitting in a transport. Especially if you want to disembark as soon as possible and get them e.g. on an objective. With Stygies Vanguard you can scout move the transport 9", then disembark 2", move another 6" and then still run and shoot (hitting on 2+ if you got a radioman and use the Protector Doctrina on the unit) in order to get them into range/on an objective/into terrain or behind line of sight blockers. The main question is whether it is worth the extra point per model over rangers. Considering that you'll rarely use a transport to ship a unit to a location right outside your deployment zone but rather those farther away, getting another 1-6" of movement seems to be worth the points, in addition to having another 3" of effective range (18" assault 2 vs 15" rapid fire). You can still use Rangers for objective sitting, bubble wrapping and footslogging duties, but getting that stingy when it comes to the filling of a transport worth a not inconsiderable amount of points seems questionable IMO. When you are paying a premium for mobility you shouldn't settle for half-measures just to save a measly 10 points unless you have to.
This is assuming that units inside the Dunerider can't fire out of the vehicle (because it doesn't really look like passengers have an easy time shooting out of it and the two firing ports are already taken by the stubbers), because then the case could be made for saving points on filling of the transport that's only there to stay inside and shoot out of it. But even then the extra 3" of range might make a considerable difference in the amount of effective small-arms fire you can pour into an enemy.
I swear, AdMech players are the whiniest bunch, never happy and doom saying before the model has even hit the floor. Christ alive it's insane.
Nah, that is just people on Dakka...
Haha, well on Dakka it's easy: If it isn't a unit that provides you the easiest way to winning the next grand tournament it gets tossed out of the window automatically .
I swear, AdMech players are the whiniest bunch, never happy and doom saying before the model has even hit the floor. Christ alive it's insane.
You haven't seen Tau groups
Well, within three weeks we should have either rules or preorder going if you ask me, so then we will know. That makes my think. Shouldn't we with old tradition start new, clean thread once it comes out? You know, it kinda is big change. I would happily write somme more entries for our guide at the beginning.
I swear, AdMech players are the whiniest bunch, never happy and doom saying before the model has even hit the floor. Christ alive it's insane.
You haven't seen Tau groups
Well, within three weeks we should have either rules or preorder going if you ask me, so then we will know. That makes my think. Shouldn't we with old tradition start new, clean thread once it comes out? You know, it kinda is big change. I would happily write somme more entries for our guide at the beginning.
I personally dont see the point of spreading the conversation to multiple threads, expecially since this one has generated so much discussion already. Having everything consolidated is pretty nice. We could edit the title to say which page the "post transport release" discussion starts.
I swear, AdMech players are the whiniest bunch, never happy and doom saying before the model has even hit the floor. Christ alive it's insane.
You haven't seen Tau groups
Well, within three weeks we should have either rules or preorder going if you ask me, so then we will know. That makes my think. Shouldn't we with old tradition start new, clean thread once it comes out? You know, it kinda is big change. I would happily write somme more entries for our guide at the beginning.
I personally dont see the point of spreading the conversation to multiple threads, expecially since this one has generated so much discussion already. Having everything consolidated is pretty nice. We could edit the title to say which page the "post transport release" discussion starts.
Well previously it worked by consolidating accumulated knowledge into guide that is at the beginning, and i see that it wasn't update for some time. Im was honestly were surprised when i looked back here after some time and se it wasn't done after chapter approved. Like honestly, if we wouldn't do that before thread would be over 1000 pages long already. Nobody would read that anyway, especially with how often we drift away from tactics to off top, and discus list that are often in 90% looks the same. I think linking to the archive threads could be good idea though.
Do you guyz run Cognis flamers or Phosphor blasters on your destroyers? I can see flamers being good against CC hordes as an extra last ditch attack, prob even better if you use the Manipulus. But is it worth the extra points?
ThePie wrote: Do you guyz run Cognis flamers or Phosphor blasters on your destroyers? I can see flamers being good against CC hordes as an extra last ditch attack, prob even better if you use the Manipulus. But is it worth the extra points?
Do you use other units to peel of for your fire base, and intercept potential charges? Phosphor blasters.
You don't have dedicated roadblocks, more just cannon fodder and there are more valuable units than destroyers? Flamers.
The concept art of the new transport mentions 'should take 10x Skitarii or 5x heavy Skitarii', so I'm guessing that'll be the capacity. The question is if Kataprons count as heavy skitarii or if that's a new unit entirely. The other concept art mentions 'Hepheston' with some big shoulder mounted weapons, so that could be it.
Redemption wrote: The concept art of the new transport mentions 'should take 10x Skitarii or 5x heavy Skitarii', so I'm guessing that'll be the capacity. The question is if Kataprons count as heavy skitarii or if that's a new unit entirely. The other concept art mentions 'Hepheston' with some big shoulder mounted weapons, so that could be it.
Spoiler:
these hepheston weapons look a lot like the kataphron's.
maybe we're not just getting a transport but also some new kataphron variant?
Had a 2v2 game with 3009 points.
Used 4 dakkabots with cawl and manipulus with overwatch relic and tbh it felt really unfair. No one was able to charge them...
Thing is, Verviedi, the author of the Tactica has been missing from the thread for a long time so it isn't easy to edit. I agree we'll need another thread post-Skorpius, because I wager we'll get new players just because of this new model, and it's easier to read 10 pages than 250, considering there's been a LOT of time since first post, the meta and our army lists have changed completely. We used to trashtalk Kataphrons and suddenly everyone have 10 boxes of them, for example, so this could get confusing. Wait until either we get a Codex 2.0 or until we get the Skorpius + maybe this new Heavy Skitarii unit before starting a new thread though.
Just a supposition from the sketches present at Warhammer Fest, depicting weapon concepts for "Hephaston". And the notes about the transport capacity on the same sketch talk about "10 Skitarii capacity or 5 Heavy Skitarii". For all we know it may be a project that hasn't passed the art phase and may not see the light of day this soon, but I suspect GW is teasing us by showing the sketch with these notes, they KNOW we'll extrapolate like crazy about it. I hope it'll be Skitarii and not other Kataphrons though. If they do a mini AdMech release they might even throw a random Skitarii Princeps HQ, who knows ?
What I wish to know is the preorder date for the Skorpius. And the RUUULES.
Aaranis wrote: Just a supposition from the sketches present at Warhammer Fest, depicting weapon concepts for "Hephaston". And the notes about the transport capacity on the same sketch talk about "10 Skitarii capacity or 5 Heavy Skitarii". For all we know it may be a project that hasn't passed the art phase and may not see the light of day this soon, but I suspect GW is teasing us by showing the sketch with these notes, they KNOW we'll extrapolate like crazy about it. I hope it'll be Skitarii and not other Kataphrons though. If they do a mini AdMech release they might even throw a random Skitarii Princeps HQ, who knows ?
What I wish to know is the preorder date for the Skorpius. And the RUUULES.
Something like myrmidon from 30k re-imagined into a plastic heavy skitarii is what i imagine they would be.
No. Concept art is concept art. Might also be for stuff that was discarded (see for example the several Manipulus weapons that didn't make it in the end) or is only coming out in a few years, if at all. Chances are that they might lead to something eventually, otherwise GW propably wouldn't have made them public.
Heavy Skitarii probably refers to Sicarians (as well).
Agree with the others that we eventually need a new thread, especially if the OP is MIA and it's hard to edit e.g. the unit summaries. Admech changed quite a bit with the last Chapter Approved (a hundred pages discussing Stygies turn one charges or how worthless 47 point Engineseers and 127 point Dominii are won't help anyone reading the thread today... and that's before considering the dozen pages discussing flavor of the month soup lists and unrelated Imperial units that are no longe en vogue) and the new transport, as well as a potential second codex, will necessitate a change with an OP who is one of the regulars in this thread.
But then again, I would really need a good reason to run the tank version over my chicken walker spam list. (I assume they will be Skitarii, so they will get +2 to hit, but if they cannot be squadroned, it's probably a wash.)
Interesting the label for one of the tank weapons days 'Energy Howizter' a howitzer is an artillery weapon and the more i look at the other weapon with the T shaped end, that also looks like an artillery type gun. Too much of a stretch to think they both might ignore los?
Octovol wrote: Interesting the label for one of the tank weapons days 'Energy Howizter' a howitzer is an artillery weapon and the more i look at the other weapon with the T shaped end, that also looks like an artillery type gun. Too much of a stretch to think they both might ignore los?
If they did, I am sure the models will sell out fast. They may do so anyway because of the transport...
I really can't wait for the datasheet of the Skorpius Dunerider and its point cost, hope to see it previewed this week !
I have some ideas of Ryza lists I'd like to write but I got to know the costs... I'd like to have 2x10 Vanguards with 3 Calivers and Data-tether in Skorpiuses, as well as 2x10-12 Fulgurites in Skorpiuses too. Then add a unit of 6 Ryzaphrons, 3 Onagers, the Fistellans and you have an idea.
Aaranis wrote: I really can't wait for the datasheet of the Skorpius Dunerider and its point cost, hope to see it previewed this week !
I have some ideas of Ryza lists I'd like to write but I got to know the costs... I'd like to have 2x10 Vanguards with 3 Calivers and Data-tether in Skorpiuses, as well as 2x10-12 Fulgurites in Skorpiuses too. Then add a unit of 6 Ryzaphrons, 3 Onagers, the Fistellans and you have an idea.
This idea intrigues me the most. I almost want to run a Dark Eldar style Venom spam except with the Duneriders depending on how cheap they are. Run as Stygies, and depending on their stat line/possible open topness I would run four of them each with a loaded up Plasma Vanguard.
Run those with eight Dragoons and you've got yourself a mobile force that has threats everywhere with points left over to add in your flavor to the army. But again very dependent on the Duneriders not being trash.
i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
Vineheart01 wrote: i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
It's more fluffy, at least imo, and they are more close range than rangers.
Vineheart01 wrote: i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
It's a 1pt difference not 2. I do it for the weight of fire, flexibility of advancing and shooting, the 2dmg on wound rolls of six is very useful in a pinch, and yes I use the -1 toughness often.
I think Vanguard are a better troop overall just because they have assault based weapons and can hold up a BIT better in combat. In a game where taking mid field objectives is key, those advantages cannot be understated.
Vineheart01 wrote: i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
To me Vanguards are the ones who want to be danger close, so the plasma fits them best. That way they're all Assault, and if they're charged they can be useful for the counter-charge with the -1T. The other day playing Graia I had received a charge from jetbikes on the Vanguards, my Culexus and Dominus. They kinda failed their attacks, so I could return the hits with the Vanguards who know wounded on 4s and the Culexus who wounded on 3s. Next turn I had Emotionless Clarity on the Dominus so I could shoot a dozen Radium shots on the bikes that wounded on 4s thanks to the -1T.
My Rangers are either always in squads of 5-7 with two Arquebuses and an Omnispex, or base. I almost always have a squad with two Arc Rifles too, because it's so cheap and cool-looking.
Vineheart01 wrote: i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
Synergy, the two weapons are assault, have the same range, and both can do 2 damage flat per shot. Vanguard just make sense. Rangers are cheaper yes, but a whopping 5-10 points per unit in the grand scheme isn't a big deal in my eyes when the vanguard line up better. Heck they even used to have the same amount of shots if I remember right.
Metallica specific, vanguard make better use of our Forgeworld trait. It'd be very stupid for a Metalica player to stick plasma on rangers, especially if he plans on advancing the whole game when vanguard exist. And the -1 T can be handy. I wouldn't call it a game changer, but it means they wound a lot of things on 4's in CQC. If we ever got a way to give units extra attacks they'd be a pretty solid counterassult unit. I keep reading that the rangers rifles do more damage per point but I never see it, maybe that's just me. I guess my thing I see so many Primaris for example anything that can do 2D just works for me. I'm sure the math checks out but I gotta go with my gut.
In other news, I got to try the Metalica sprint bots for the first time yesterday. Need to do a few more games but I think it shows some promise for a fun style if nothing else. Spoiling as a mercy to fellow phone posters
Spoiler:
So here's what went down. 1000pts game vs thousand sons lists below. Key thing of import was I had two Kastellans armed x2 phosphor/incendine combustor. At a 1,000pts I'm essentially running my planned 2k list but cut in half. The board was a simple 4x4 urban map, playing Chapter approved maelstom mission 5. Idea was simple, everything moves up but rangers. Some things like kataphrons moved slower, and Dominus sticks in the back to provide a fall back point, but for the most part the army is sprinting forward at all times. Kastellans are there to be an anchor point for the vanguard, Dragoons, and Kataphrons to rally around while the rangers and Onager provide fire support and hold rear objectives. As the game began with first turn I had my enginseer use the skull to get the bots ready for protector mode next turn.
My problem was I was playing the one army who wanted to hide his whole list and not fight me in the open. He also had a decked out squad of rubric terminators, marines, and tzaangors in deepstrike, meaning I've got precious few targets. With lots of LOS blocking ruins, I needed to close the distance to get vision and I deployed the robots poorly. You can see this in the pictures below, where the robots are standing is after a single 12" advance from my own lines before going into protector. I obliterated a rubric squad and chipped wounds off the mutalith and demon prince, but due to incredibly sloppy play the Kastellans didn't even get to shoot and only 2 kataphrons got to shoot, one of whom killed himself, and the Onager completely whiffed. All things considered an excellent shooting turn as far as damage was concerned considering my poor infantry had to do all the work.
Going into the bottom of turn 1 thousand sons counterattack, much smite and infernal gateway is had, and the daemon prince lands smack in the middle of my lines not 2" from the Kastellans. As he pyskers the infantry and dragoon, the robots take some minor damage but survive to the charge phase.
This is where the fun begins and I forgot to take pictures. If you look at the second picture, the daemon prince manages to warptime and end up behind the dragoon right next to the bots, meanwhile ahriman is going after the dragoon. Realizing my bots are about to get charged by a daemon prince, I've got a tough choice that I have to make at start of charge phase. I can leave the bots in aegis mode, bank on surviving combat, then fall back and shoot the daemon prince using elimination volley to help accuracy, or, I can slam into protector doctrina and try to kill him here and now with 4d6 combustor and 24 phosphor shots. I go for the overwatch kill and binharic override. I roll a respectable 18 shots or so and sneak in a few damage and then get 4 phosphor hits which knock off a couple more wound dropping the prince down to 4. What follows is the worst reward for dumb play I've ever seen.
Thousand sons player decides to kill dragoon first, dragoon explodes chipping prince and ahriman. DP is now at 3. He swings at bots and kills one. I decide to force an explosion and roll a flat 3 damage on the prince, killing him. I lose some vanguard and almost lost a kataphron, along with damaging the other Kastellan in the blast, but it works. I have killed more of my models than him but am leading handily on VP thanks to maelstom. I am now down to a single damaged Kastellan. Said Kastellan lasts a few more turns and does a surprising amount of work for being stuck in the middle and only able to use maybe 2 fire lanes. My opponent basically just tried to avoid the bot and hops from cover to cover with most of his units for the rest of the game, sole exception being the terminators which slowly chip away at him. Due to the mission format being absolutely brutal when it comes to objectives, luck played a small part in my victory but I do feel I played it halfway decently and any issues were operator error, not the list.
The good: -The bots did well for how badly I played. The overwatch was nasty but I need more to truly shut down assaults. The big draws though was that while they basically lost an entire turn of shooting, they still did the typical job of making opponents avoid their fire lines. However by being so far forward this meant that the opponent just could not avoid them and the rest of my army, something would have a shot. To not even pull off strafing run was a good initial "worst case" test. Are they going to win a major event? Probably not, but it was fun. I'm excited to see them "work" as intended.
-Kataphrons, duh
-Rangers, they did some work with the arquebuses. They were my most consistent big game weapon all game. They chipped the prince and ahriman at various points, put wounds on the mutalith, and made him be cautious with ahriman. They never did jaw dropping damage, but they had enough shots to sneak in a couple MW and finish off targets. I still feel I need more, just like the Kastellans, to truly ensure results. I feel like 6 arquebuses at 1k would be about right, probably 12 at 2k. I'm often just short of killing hard characters when I focus with all 4 at the moment.
the bad -the neutron laser never got a single hit through saves. It was essentially a punching bag, it's most significant contribution being holding up the mutalith. I want to like it because it's far easier to roll for than the stupid Icarus array but I am cursed when it comes to D3 shot weapons.
-vanguard, I tried taking them barebones but really missed the plasma. I should've dropped the barebones ranger squad and a model or two to kit the rangers out. They still did damage, but you could tell they were struggling
-complete lack of pysker defense, although that's an army problem, you really feel it against the thousand sons. Lost probably half my infantry to smites and gateway.
Spoiler:
End of my turn 1, note poorly positioned sprinting bots have a bad field of fire.
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Going into opponents assault phase of turn 1, and the panic binharic override. Got caught up in the game and forgot to take more pics
Vineheart01 wrote: i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
Mostly because you can advance and still shoot with whole squad. You don't have compromise shooting/movement with that unit and they have the same range. Thats why plasmas are for vanguards and arc rifles are for rangers. This -1T isn't much but have been really helpful to me dozen times, buts that mainly due to my army compositions and play style.
Pts in 40k are like calories. They aren't equal. We cannot look at them in vacuum. On planet bowling ball balistari are to squishy to be antitank squad, give them some line of sight blocking, and their movement start to shine and they can easily outperform onagers. Don't just look for points, look for synergies and possibilities.
@MrMoustaffa
6x Arquebus is pretty much the minimum. Any fewer, and you won't make an impact in individual turns.
Neutron Laser is great against things without an invulnerable save. Also good for executing characters. But not as good as Ironstrider Ballistarii due to being much more expensive and having to struggle against minus to hit. At the same time, Icarus Crawlers are much more flexible than Neutron Crawlers still.
I tend to always run Graia infantry and tax HQs. Having the option to Abhor is extremely valuable because it's 1 CP to counter entire game plans. Psyker armies by their very nature rely a lot on their spells.
Why do you run tethers on the infantry? I actually think it's always more efficient to run another man somewhere else. Lol. And if you need better morale, just huddle around a Crawler or Ironstrider.
Octovol wrote: Interesting the label for one of the tank weapons days 'Energy Howizter' a howitzer is an artillery weapon and the more i look at the other weapon with the T shaped end, that also looks like an artillery type gun. Too much of a stretch to think they both might ignore los?
If they did, I am sure the models will sell out fast. They may do so anyway because of the transport...
Imagine if one single model filled all the gaps in our army.
Flyer, Transport, Non-LoS shooting and (wishful thinking) some sort of psychic deny,
That would be dope as hell.
Realistically i think were getting : pseudo fly(disengage then shoot possible) and a 18-24" lascannon equivalent
However the onager has 2 stubers for 6 S4 ap 0 attacks +1T +5W a 3+ instead of a 4+ a 5++ reroll1's instead of a 6+ and can move without penalty to firing even if its not as quick. Its not the main cannon thats better its the survivability of the platform its also just as good as individual ballistarii against -1s.
The only time you should be running tethers on infantry is hoplites
Imagine if one single model filled all the gaps in our army. Flyer, Transport, Non-LoS shooting and (wishful thinking) some sort of psychic deny, That would be dope as hell.
Realistically i think were getting : pseudo fly(disengage then shoot possible) and a 18-24" lascannon equivalent
And priced as such? No thank you, id rather have unit that does good one or two things, but is affordable in points.
U02dah4 wrote: Neutron onager is generally better than a ballistari
However the onager has 2 stubers for 6 S4 ap 0 attacks +1T +5W a 3+ instead of a 4+ a 5++ reroll1's instead of a 6+ and can move without penalty to firing even if its not as quick. Its not the main cannon thats better its the survivability of the platform its also just as good as individual ballistarii against -1s.
The only time you should be running tethers on infantry is hoplites
Onager isn't better than balistari. Not after rule of 3 came and meta shifted to high inv vehicles/flyer spam. With both of those balistari do better than onager. Onager are still good, especially icarus one with cawl, but when you need raw power, balistari outperform them massively. Only problem they have is abundance of flat 3&6 dmg weapons that came with knights.
And you should bring datathethers on any unit that isn't min sized, not only Hoplites. Hoplites are in factt one of few units that you may rather plan to invest those 2cp to make them fearless.
Vineheart01 wrote: i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
Calivers are Assault 2 with 18" range. Radium Carbines are Assault 3 with 18" range.
For a VERY minor point cost increase (I usually run units of 8 with 2 calivers and a Data-tether (which I toss on one of the Caliver troopers), so 8 points) you get matching ranges on all of the squad's guns (so you can be 18" away instead of 15" for full firepower) and more importantly can still advance and shoot, which is VERY important if they are running up the field and are supposed to capture and clear objectives or just getting into range in general. Also you can pull of some pretty tasty plays by advancing and then activating protector doctrina, meaning that you are very likely in range for the entire squad (25"-30" threat range in one turn) and are still hitting on 2+ and have 0 risk of overheating. Both things you can't pull of with Rangers.
And that's before considering the D2 you do on 6 to wound rolls, which against non T5 vehicles or monsters is the roll you need to wound them anyway (and you'll be rolling a ton of dice too every time, so it is bound to happen a few times), which means the entire unit is effective against the targets you want to use the Calivers against, unlike Rangers where you are better off split-firing into infantry (and will you have an enemy infantry unit within 15" too when you are going after bigger targets with the Calivers? If not you end up with 1 shot per model again).
I tend to run 1-2 small ranger units as well that are supposed to move forward and screen my lines as well as capture the odd objective when it's nearby, but I prefer to throw a single Arc Rifle on them rather than Calivers. An underrated weapon IMO, 11 points for a Ranger with an arc rifle is dirt cheap, easily makes its points back and adds some nice and flexible extra sprinkles of AT firepower into my list and the 12" rapid fire range usually isn't an issue as I usually find myself either inside 12" (especially if I want to get into RF range) or outside of 15". And there is quite a few T5 and T6 vehicles out there against which the Arc Rifle is extremely point efficient, especially any time you end up playing against Dark Eldar . And most importantly if they get killed (which tends to happen, they are skirmishing/screening units after all, especially with smaller squad sizes) it's not much of a loss, unlike the Calivers which hurt quite a bit more if you lose 'em and are better off in bigger units to keep you investment alive for longer.
Suzuteo wrote: @MrMoustaffa
6x Arquebus is pretty much the minimum. Any fewer, and you won't make an impact in individual turns.
Neutron Laser is great against things without an invulnerable save. Also good for executing characters. But not as good as Ironstrider Ballistarii due to being much more expensive and having to struggle against minus to hit. At the same time, Icarus Crawlers are much more flexible than Neutron Crawlers still.
I tend to always run Graia infantry and tax HQs. Having the option to Abhor is extremely valuable because it's 1 CP to counter entire game plans. Psyker armies by their very nature rely a lot on their spells.
Why do you run tethers on the infantry? I actually think it's always more efficient to run another man somewhere else. Lol. And if you need better morale, just huddle around a Crawler or Ironstrider.
Yeah for the rangers I just need to build more arquebuses. I've got the bits just need bodies.
On the Icarus vs neutron, this is going to sound like a weird complaint but I find the Icarus a chore to roll for. Many of my stores players are new or have little time to play, and trying to explain the weapons on it just really puzzles them for some reason. Trying to explain "this missile is ap2 and 1 damage but this is an autocannon that's an ap 1 and 2 damage, and this is a krak missile but it's s7" and their eyes just gloss over. Ive also had problems with the Icarus just being chip damage and when my only real AT weapons are snipers and Kataphrons I'd like to have a more durable backup for heavy targets. Maybe the new tank will fill that gap and I can take Icarus no issues, well see.
As for morale, I found the opposite. Vanguard morale is trash and I'm not wasting a canticle for free rerolls. Usually the data tethers will save twice their value in men in my experience. On top of that, and again Metallica so experience may vary, they're very handy for when I'm charging up the board and outrun my broad spectrum arrays. Also, it allows me to fall back with a plasma squad, protector doctrina, and still hit the average target on 2's. It's really not a huge deal in the long run but it helps me save the odd CP and bail me out of a tight spot every so often. Since I like to run large squads morale is more of an issue so they come into play more.
Graia would work well, I just enjoy trying to make a mono FW list work for thematic and paint scheme reasons. The soup lists are cool, don't get me wrong, just not for me, and I feel they're a bit flavor of the month that could easily get screwed up by a FAQ in the future. I don't like building lists like that that can get screwed over after all the time and money investment. I'm not attending major events so I'm not particularly pressed to go all out for tournament builds.
The Icarus vs Neutron debate can last long as there are arguments for both. I've found the big strength of the Neutron is its ability to deal with T8, which the Icarus is powerless against. At least in my meta plagued by Leman Russ Commanders, Repulsors and the occasional Knight/Wraithknight I need to have S10. If I had Ballistarii I'd consider using them for this role but I don't. My point is: S10 is powerful and precious. There's also the matter of the AP-4, which will ignore all the aforementioned's armour save (but not the invulnerable ofc) and will save you from facepalming after your opponent rolls a 6. Minimum 3 damage guarantees you can at least finish them off instead of rolling 1s.
Icarus are built to deal with anything Aeldari, from all flavours. Jetbikes hate it, Raiders hate it, Skyweavers hate it and that's great. There's loads of Jetbikes in my meta as well and Icarus are a plague to them. And if you're facing a horde list, with a simple strat or character you can deal with the ground chaff as well with the 10 shots.
It's tough that we have to limit our Dunecrawlers to 3 because these weapons are best used at least in pairs to guarantee your plan works, you can't rely on 1 Icarus for all the anti-AA in a 2000 pts game. Same for Neutron, alone suffice to have a little bad luck on the wound rolls and it may as well not exist. But three are a real threat to those Russes and with luck you can one-shot one of them with a single salvo (personal record is 17W against an Exocrine ). This is also the reason why I'm happy for the new tank, and don't understand the people saying "Why another tank ?". If its profile and point cost are balanced, and they have option for a powerful gun like the Neutron, we can give full Icarus to our Onagers and leave high Toughness duty to the Skorpius Disintegrator. With a name like that chances are my wishes may come true.
As for the Data-tether subject, I think it best used in lists where you build a minimum around your infantry in your list, meaning maxing them out with special weapons. Without transports few people play that way because anti-infantry weapons aren't lacking, but with a Skorpius it changes all. A reroll Morale for 5 pts can save your last dudes in the squad, usually the special weapons and the Alpha, and that's important. I'm definitely planning at least two 10-man squads of Vanguard with Calivers so I'll need to build some Data-tethers. Hugging your Onagers or Ironstrider is not reliable, it gives a +1 Ld but you're not always in range of one.
i think another factor to icarus vs neutron crawlers is mono-admech or allies.
Originally i wanted 2 neutrons just because i didnt have all that much to deal with T8 other than just rate of fire and hope for the best. But i plan to use warglaives and knights too, which pushes me off the neutron option since now i feel over-saturated with anti-T8 lol
Also in response to the many to my ranger vs vanguard question: didnt think about that. I'm used to never advancing except with pure melee units or Boyz so i just never think of it.
Aaranis wrote: The Icarus vs Neutron debate can last long as there are arguments for both. I've found the big strength of the Neutron is its ability to deal with T8, which the Icarus is powerless against. At least in my meta plagued by Leman Russ Commanders, Repulsors and the occasional Knight/Wraithknight I need to have S10. If I had Ballistarii I'd consider using them for this role but I don't. My point is: S10 is powerful and precious. There's also the matter of the AP-4, which will ignore all the aforementioned's armour save (but not the invulnerable ofc) and will save you from facepalming after your opponent rolls a 6. Minimum 3 damage guarantees you can at least finish them off instead of rolling 1s.
Icarus are built to deal with anything Aeldari, from all flavours. Jetbikes hate it, Raiders hate it, Skyweavers hate it and that's great. There's loads of Jetbikes in my meta as well and Icarus are a plague to them. And if you're facing a horde list, with a simple strat or character you can deal with the ground chaff as well with the 10 shots.
Exactly what I was thinking. Icarus are great if you know that you'll be facing tons of Eldar reliably, like in super competitive US/UK tournament circuits, and/or are running an Imperium soup, there are no restrictions on LoWs and you could bring Knights (not the case for most tournaments where I am from), and if money isn't a concern and just slapping a whole lot of money on the table to get the on paper most point efficient S9+ AT firepower (Balistarii) is more important than the amount of $$$ that will cost.
I play mono-Admech (the odd assassin aside) and I always have one Icarus Onager. One. Because if I end up playing against armies with plenty of T7 and T8 units and no flying units worth shooting at I can still pop the protector doctrina and have it shoot with a 2+ to hit rather than it struggling to be useful with a 4+ to hit. Because at the end of the day it's a mostly AT vehicle where half the firepower (excluding stubbers because Neutron Crabs do them better) are only S6 D1 and out of the remaining 5 shots four are autocannons, which are pretty bad for AT work in general in this edition, especially as soon as vehicles with 3+ saves come into play. And then there is the cool AP-3 krak missile that is only S7 as well. And you have to fire all of them at the same target too, even if half the shots you shoot will be inefficient against it. No jetbikes or Eldar vehicles (or other tasty sub-T7 flyers) around? Too bad, now have fun shooting at cheap infantry and wasting both autocannons and the Flak-missile or good luck shooting at T7/T8 targets with 3+ saves, you better pray that single Daedalus missile hits and wounds~. It's a pretty all or nothing unit, that can fullfill a solid generalist role in a worst case scenario as long as you have only one and can still make it shoot anything with a 2+ to hit.
It also isn't bad against infantry, especially elite infantry, but that's what the Dakkabots are there for and do better, as well as all the Skitarii (or most Admech units in general). And if Balistarii are your only hard anti tank unit, they aren't particularly hard to kill and even just a unit of two is a very tasty target and much easier to destroy than even a single Dunecrawler, thanks to only having 6 wounds, T6 and a pretty bad save combination of 4+/6++, making any opponent getting first turn happy if that's the cornerstone of your defense against T7+ 3+. They also can't move and fire without penalty. Great bang for your buck if firepower is the deciding factor, much less flexibility and especially survivability than a Crab that only costs 37 points more, which is just an amazing all around package.
Having two Neutron Dunecrawlers as well as a unit of 1-2 Lascannon Balistarii in addition to my one Icarus Crab completely covers my AT needs in 1500 and less point games. Against popular units like Russes and other T8 3+ units with no or a 5++ inv at best they provide some serious bang for your buck, pretty reliable damage output and the chance to simply oneshot a much pricier Leman Russ in a single round. For 119 points. Facing fliers? Pop protector doctrina and make them squirm after you just fired your Icarus Crawler as well. Facing fliers and Balistarii were already killed? Pop protector doctrina. They are great at filling a big hole in a pure Admech army (countering tough T7/T8+ vehicles). Balistarii are good but easily killed, while Neutron Crabs provide great firepower AND great survivability and mobility and a great unit to use your readily available repair units on (as well as two super efficient stubbers), all for 119 points. They even toss out 6 S4 shots at 36" which are ideal to plink objective-sitting infantry. And finally spamming Balistarii and to a lesser degree Plasmaphrons (which also only really start to shine if they come from very specific Forge worlds and if you build your list around them to a large extend) costs a crazy amount of cash, while Dunecrawlers are readily available from SC! boxes that every Admech player has or wants 2-3 of.
We really need squadrons for Onagers. I agree that if I could run more than 3 I'd probably be running 4-5 easy, 2 Icarus and 2-3 neutron. One can only hope we get a squadron rule again with a theoretical V2 codex.
Going to repost this, since it got auto appended and lost.
So I might have to go to my backup list because two of my models seem to be taking longer to arrive than expected. It's basically dropping a Kastelan and Dragoons for a Knight. But Styrix or Crusader?
497 - Knight Crusader - Thermal Cannon, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Warlord: Ion Bulwark (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
+Much more dakka; AGC is great anti-infantry and Stormspear is solid and cheap anti-vehicle shooting
-Thermal Cannon much worse than Volkite Chierovile
-Going to be outranged by Castellans and most tank hunters
-Auto-lose in melee against most Knights
-Have to invest in durability
+Cheaper
+Much more well-rounded
+Reroll 1s for both fighting and shooting
+Built-in 3+/4++ (use Rotate when fighting), self-repair, and ignore cover
+Chainsweep
+Graviton Crusher is much better than Heavy Stubber
-Reaper is less useful than a second gun in most cases
-No Stormspear
Still leaning toward Styrix, but willing to have my mind changed. Here's the list:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1305 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 275 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
You could put first knight and headmans mark on a crusader. Assuming it lives for a few turns it’s CP investment though
But on the plus side if you see very little armour you can swap out to endless fury relic which I’m very fond of. It can be amazing versus -2 to hit eldar when you get lucky and hit a few lucky 6’s
I don't think I have the CP to sustain Rotate Ion Shields AND Tech-Adepts/Machine Spirit Resurgent for long.
I guess? Styrix can go for Armor of the Sainted Ion (2+/4++ is pretty nuts) or Mark of the Omnissiah (so much healing!). Maybe Ravager? (Are there any T8 <10W models?)
I think I will go with the Styrix after all. Good Distraction Carnifex, especially for fighting. Very durable and low CP commitment.
Suzuteo wrote: I don't think I have the CP to sustain Rotate Ion Shields AND Tech-Adepts/Machine Spirit Resurgent for long.
I guess? Styrix can go for Armor of the Sainted Ion (2+/4++ is pretty nuts) or Mark of the Omnissiah (so much healing!). Maybe Ravager? (Are there any T8 <10W models?)
I think I will go with the Styrix after all. Good Distraction Carnifex, especially for fighting. Very durable and low CP commitment.
2+ save can be amazing I had a game where that plus Taranis FNP meant my knight just didn’t seem to die.
Will you get time to test your list before the tournament?
Well there aren´t many things to benefit from the rerolls from Prime Hermiticon to be fair. 9 Breachers if they still live to this point + the Manipulus and Cawl (he has got the infantry keyword right?)
Healing 4 wounds a turn on a Knight is not bad at all.
lash92 wrote: Well there aren´t many things to benefit from the rerolls from Prime Hermiticon to be fair. 9 Breachers if they still live to this point + the Manipulus and Cawl (he has got the infantry keyword right?)
Healing 4 wounds a turn on a Knight is not bad at all.
I've had some fun with some ryza electropriests backed up by a manipulus with prime hermeticon and anzion's pseudodegenerator. its pretty cool to run at your opponent when hes expecting a gunline
Sigh my friend is convincing me to go with Crusader now. (I am being hilariously indecisive.) He pointed out that I can't fight with aircraft and furthermore, that horde and triple Crusader is going to be more popular than ever, so going with a single Crusader is better for the meta. I can still position him like the Styrix and use him as a midfield defender too.
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1305 Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)
HQ - 275 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 523
Lord of War - 523 1x Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer, 2x Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Warlord: Ion Bulwark (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1993 points 13 CP (-3)
I also am now considering the Icarus carapace weapon. Frees up 33 points for singleton Plasma Calivers. Or I can just upgrade all my Rangers to Vanguard again for the very useful aura.
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 498
Lord of War - 498 1x Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer, 2x Heavy Stubber, Twin Icarus Autocannon, Warlord: Ion Bulwark (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1999 points 13 CP (-3)
I have 17 spare points, bought two extra Vanguard. Anyone else have a better idea? I sort of prefer bodies over upgrades at this point; this is the least infantry I have ever run in 8E.
Just waiting on confirmation from FLG on the Manipulus point cost. I think it should be 85.
As i said many times for your list Suzuteo i dont know if you can find more kataphron models but i would change your list to :
1*4 breachers
1*4breachers
1* 3 destroyers??
3 Dakkabots if the numbers fit or close to this. The extra elimination volley option can help you against - to hit enemies get another option for anti tanks etc etc.
they would be right if looking at the unfaq'd book.
Heck a LOT of the prices got sliced in half or almost half. Even Knights went down in price after initial release.
Could also be looking at powerlevels, which for some reason never get tweaked. Admech still have high powerlevels, every 2k list i come up with seems to have almost 135-140PL lol
Ironclad Dreadnought is the only one that comes to mind.
Competitively out there are our drills and plagueburst crawlers also.
They both have 10 wounds or more though.
Salamanders have even better one. T9 <10W character dreadnought.
Just checked, Bjorn the Fell-handed is a T8 8 wound 3+ save/5++FnP Dreadnought character (with 8" movement to boot) with good ranged and excellent melee output. Quite a beast and well worth his points, but sadly in an extremely weak Codex, so facing him shouldn't be a problem because it should be pretty easy to murder the rest of the Space Wolves list he comes with and then deal with him. Storm Shield dreadnoughts getting an unnecessary nerf also limited his ability to go on the offensive as a double- or triple dreadnought pack too (absorbing lascannons with their 3++ save and preventing Bjorn from being targetable, a popular combination before the SW Codex released).
Vineheart01 wrote: they would be right if looking at the unfaq'd book.
Heck a LOT of the prices got sliced in half or almost half. Even Knights went down in price after initial release.
Could also be looking at powerlevels, which for some reason never get tweaked. Admech still have high powerlevels, every 2k list i come up with seems to have almost 135-140PL lol
My guess is that none of the BOLS writers (those that were available to right the piece anyhow)play Admech or paid attention to the pretty massive buffs we got with CA18 and Vigilus and probably only read the Admech Codex at best.
I m not sure atm in competitive play I see various detachments of space wolves working fine . And I know they have over costs units etc and can't play single faction as blood angels but I can definitely say they got a superb detachment even us can use .
And I have a list with one detachment space wolves as I do with blood angels and various others.
Soup is on the menu after faq and there now even more dedliier lists than pre faq.
So yes click bait site but single codex armies if you consider that they are not wrong . No ad mech can't compete with new cigarette solo codex as many others from harlequins till blood angels and ttyrannids . Single codex is hard ATM.
We have individually great models with some contradicting rules and very little interactivity between units. As an army, the rules are pretty awful. We just happen to be saved by having good strategms to prop up the poor rulew writing. See how well you do without any CP and tell me again how good our rules are lol
Vineheart01 wrote: Tell me an army that plays decently without stratagems against an army that is using them.....
Guard can do pretty well. We have good strategems but they're nothing quite as Earth shattering as what other codexes get. With orders, relics, and warlord traits you can cover a lot of bases. Granted I'd do better if I get to use strategems but it's not like you kneecapped my army.
And I do agree that what really helps admech is the strategems and some additional tweaks like Vigulus and point drops. Admech, more than any other codex I play, makes me feel like I'm doing well in spite of my codex, not because of it.
Octovol wrote: We have individually great models with some contradicting rules and very little interactivity between units. As an army, the rules are pretty awful. We just happen to be saved by having good strategms to prop up the poor rulew writing. See how well you do without any CP and tell me again how good our rules are lol
I agree that we have weird choices of rules (all our melee relics come to mind) but the army as a whole is still strong. Also 8th edition has stratagems as part of the core game, you cannot disreguard them when evaluating an army.
We have answers to everything except psykers. Our anti-horde can also deal with tanks decently and most of our big units are quite resilient. our basic troops are cheap and are great at their job.
Plus we have the OP buff of having the "Imperium" keyword
Octovol wrote: We have individually great models with some contradicting rules and very little interactivity between units. As an army, the rules are pretty awful. We just happen to be saved by having good strategms to prop up the poor rulew writing. See how well you do without any CP and tell me again how good our rules are lol
I agree that we have weird choices of rules (all our melee relics come to mind) but the army as a whole is still strong. Also 8th edition has stratagems as part of the core game, you cannot disreguard them when evaluating an army.
We have answers to everything except psykers. Our anti-horde can also deal with tanks decently and most of our big units are quite resilient. our basic troops are cheap and are great at their job.
Plus we have the OP buff of having the "Imperium" keyword
Agreed.
Though we do have the Graia deny. Sure, isn't "much" and forge world dependent, but on the upside you don't need to pay points for a specialized deny-unit like Inquisitors or psykers, if you play Graia you get it on the house. Not to mention that a flat 4+ to deny any power is great and gets even better because you are able to re-roll it for a CP.
If I look at my Tau... things could be much, MUCH worse for Admech. They can't use allies at all and just have to suck it up when psykers start throwing their strong buffs and debuffs around. NicassarWHEN.jpg
I actually do not mind people thinking AdMech is bad. Furthermore, our rules do suck. Most of Canticles and relics are useless and our dogmas are pretty bad too. Stratagems seem to be our only bright spot, that and point values now.
@Yoda79
I did the math, and I don't think Destroyers are viable against Eldar aircraft spam. The risk of overheating is way too high. Unless I want to buy a Mars Dominus and get Servitor Maniple. (Too many costs for too little benefit. I think Icarus Crawlers or Ironstriders are a better choice.)
--
Also, I asked FLG, and they asked GW about Tech-Priest Manipulus's base value. It is 90. So the default loadout costs 95.
Ideasweasel wrote: @Suzuteo oh snap so the community team were speaking out of turn when they said Manipulus will be pointed between Enginseer and Dominus.
Damn. Search as I have I could never find the quote to send it in an email to GW asking them to clarify why they never made good on that.
Shame :(
*edit*
Double oh snap!
It was actually BOLS spreading misinformation about the Manipulus. I knew I had read it somewhere but to be fair to GW they never actually said he’d be a sensible points price. Maybe by the time the next adjustment rolls around they will see he’s pointed incorrectly
I case of BOLS article id group us with harlequins and sisters, because i think the we suffered form same problem -Limited roster. Now that our units are decent we are getting better and better results. Stratagems are really good, aldough some might argue that later released armies have better ones/distributed more favorably(teleport stratagems not hidden behind specific "chapter" and so on).
I don't mind, let them call us week if that means that we get more support form GW.
Ideasweasel wrote: @Suzuteo oh snap so the community team were speaking out of turn when they said Manipulus will be pointed between Enginseer and Dominus.
Damn. Search as I have I could never find the quote to send it in an email to GW asking them to clarify why they never made good on that.
Shame :(
*edit*
Double oh snap!
It was actually BOLS spreading misinformation about the Manipulus. I knew I had read it somewhere but to be fair to GW they never actually said he’d be a sensible points price. Maybe by the time the next adjustment rolls around they will see he’s pointed incorrectly
You never thought to just enter 'manipulus' on the WC site?
A Manipulus serves as a happy middle ground in terms of power and points cost between his fellow Tech-Priests, the Enginseer and the Dominus, and also has unique access to a handy Tactic that will help your kill team to surge forwards at the onset of battle.
Stuff released around the time of CA generally doesnt reflect any changes in it.
He was probably priced between the two and then Dom dropped to 90pts, but since Mani wasnt out long enough CA19 didnt drop him either.
He definitely doesnt feel like he should be 95pts...
So i finally managed to play with admech for the first time and it was loads of fun. But i never managed to beat one of my friends ork army. He simply overwhelmed any screen i have and murdered everything by t2-t3 by sheer number and speed.
I was thinking of dropping the 3 plasma destroyers from the list, never felt they were worth the points for 1000 pts battles, would it be worth trading the destroyers for some extra screens and either another kastellan or dunecrawler (or perhaps just 2 kastellans instead of extra screens)
I don't say take 12 destroyers and build a list around them. I just said an option to improve your list . Take 3 grav destroyers or don't use overcharged plasma when you face planes .
What ever the case when you decide to take Cawl for a reason then you decide to take some dedtruers to help your 440+ point robots. Same list more options when you need. Same list but better even. I you never use them.
They can be extra threat can move shoot be a buffer o extra meat. It's not about comparing icarus v plasma .
In. Your list as it is with Cawl can provide ooptions .
As said that's how I see it in my games not trying to convince you.
Same goes for solo destreyers no robots . Or bs 4+ without Cawl.
Seperate uunits mediocre all together above average results.
For me
My main point with our strategms is we have to rely on them too much to pick up the slack. Everytime i run out of CP it feels like a slog from then on. Even then or strategms are tied to FW or have odd restrictions.
It would just be nice to have a little more cohesion which is something we definitely lack. If more units worked together better we wouldn't need to rely on CP as much. For example if all servitors had the Mindlock rule regular servitors have then it would give extra worth to our HQs who are frankly dull. Cawl aside no body is worried if a dominus charge then... Or shoots them for that matter. They just do nothing, might as well be a standard bearer.
ThePie wrote: So i finally managed to play with admech for the first time and it was loads of fun. But i never managed to beat one of my friends ork army. He simply overwhelmed any screen i have and murdered everything by t2-t3 by sheer number and speed.
I was thinking of dropping the 3 plasma destroyers from the list, never felt they were worth the points for 1000 pts battles, would it be worth trading the destroyers for some extra screens and either another kastellan or dunecrawler (or perhaps just 2 kastellans instead of extra screens)
Can you post your list so we can see what's going on? Not sure what to recommend without knowing what you have
ThePie wrote: So i finally managed to play with admech for the first time and it was loads of fun. But i never managed to beat one of my friends ork army. He simply overwhelmed any screen i have and murdered everything by t2-t3 by sheer number and speed.
I was thinking of dropping the 3 plasma destroyers from the list, never felt they were worth the points for 1000 pts battles, would it be worth trading the destroyers for some extra screens and either another kastellan or dunecrawler (or perhaps just 2 kastellans instead of extra screens)
My strategy against Green Tide is to kill as many Lootaz and Boyz as possible with Kastelan Robots and my Knight Crusader. At 1000 points, Boyz are probably scarier. I would definitely consider 2-4 Kastelan Robots. And yeah, Skitarii are a pretty bad screen, especially in melee. Breachers definitely are better in this regard.
Plasma Destroyers are very strong, especially at lower points where first turns aren't as killy.
ThePie wrote: So i finally managed to play with admech for the first time and it was loads of fun. But i never managed to beat one of my friends ork army. He simply overwhelmed any screen i have and murdered everything by t2-t3 by sheer number and speed.
I was thinking of dropping the 3 plasma destroyers from the list, never felt they were worth the points for 1000 pts battles, would it be worth trading the destroyers for some extra screens and either another kastellan or dunecrawler (or perhaps just 2 kastellans instead of extra screens)
Can you post your list so we can see what's going on? Not sure what to recommend without knowing what you have
Warboss on bike
Wartrike
Wierdboy
2 blobs of boys with a mix of shootas and choppas (think it was something between 20-25 in each blob)
10 gretchlings (which he ran infront of boys to soak wounds with some stratagem)
3x5 storm boys
2x5 commandos
Lots of kill saw in that list aswell.
Even with 2 lines of screens, first line just got shot down and then he charged and killed the second one in a single turn, even killing one blob didnt help since the other blob, commandos and stormboys tied down everything else turn after. And dang i was not prepeared for how fast and brutal the wartrike and warboss was, they charged across the entire field in one turn and had like fixed 4 damage with absurd str. Game was fun but i really need to improve to challenge him next time.
Ideasweasel wrote: @Suzuteo oh snap so the community team were speaking out of turn when they said Manipulus will be pointed between Enginseer and Dominus.
Damn. Search as I have I could never find the quote to send it in an email to GW asking them to clarify why they never made good on that.
Shame :(
*edit*
Double oh snap!
It was actually BOLS spreading misinformation about the Manipulus. I knew I had read it somewhere but to be fair to GW they never actually said he’d be a sensible points price. Maybe by the time the next adjustment rolls around they will see he’s pointed incorrectly
well the dominus is PL 7 and the Manipulus only PL 5
No one betting money on that not being exactly what the community team were referring to with their statement, ever.
Would be rather surprised if they ever overhaul point costs for "auxiliary units" that were made for different games and only got 40k rules to push sales (better than if there were no rules or only PL points, but it's obvious why e.g. the Rouge Trader or Blackstone Fortress models got 40k rules) considering that like the rest of e.g. the Blackstone Fortress or Rouge Trader models the Manipulus might never get more than that one Kill Team expansion release he was included in, and the official rules are just a leaflet included in that box.
For that reason spamming the community support and rules team channels/mail accounts and asking them to not only release the Manipulus as an individual model release, but include the Manipulus in any revised Admech Codex, Chapter Approved or just as a PDF on their website, INCLUDING the data sheet and rules, is so important, otherwise there is little reason for them to overhaul point costs for a unit where neither the model NOR the printed rules on the included leaflet are available anymore once they stop producing that Kill Team box. .
ThePie wrote: So i finally managed to play with admech for the first time and it was loads of fun. But i never managed to beat one of my friends ork army. He simply overwhelmed any screen i have and murdered everything by t2-t3 by sheer number and speed.
I was thinking of dropping the 3 plasma destroyers from the list, never felt they were worth the points for 1000 pts battles, would it be worth trading the destroyers for some extra screens and either another kastellan or dunecrawler (or perhaps just 2 kastellans instead of extra screens)
Can you post your list so we can see what's going on? Not sure what to recommend without knowing what you have
Warboss on bike Wartrike Wierdboy 2 blobs of boys with a mix of shootas and choppas (think it was something between 20-25 in each blob) 10 gretchlings (which he ran infront of boys to soak wounds with some stratagem) 3x5 storm boys 2x5 commandos Lots of kill saw in that list aswell.
Even with 2 lines of screens, first line just got shot down and then he charged and killed the second one in a single turn, even killing one blob didnt help since the other blob, commandos and stormboys tied down everything else turn after. And dang i was not prepeared for how fast and brutal the wartrike and warboss was, they charged across the entire field in one turn and had like fixed 4 damage with absurd str. Game was fun but i really need to improve to challenge him next time.
I don't know if thats true, but reading that i se more of a play mistake than list mistake. Performing t1 charge isn't easy, so I assume that you moved your screen to much forward. Its big no no. You basically given him opportunity to slingshoot aka do 5+6"+3d6" movement by coming into his charge range. Iff you can, deeploy most of the screen out of line of sight, dense enough to deny dajump and comandos and unfold it for turn 2. And obviously, destroy warbike boss with arquebuses. Not being charge and advance in the same turn will be huge.
I will be. Don't have great hopes though, since I will probably only get one or two practice games in as I finish painting this week. Big contenders seem to be Purge list, Eldar aircraft spam, Abaddon Soup, Knights, GSC, and Tau Triptides Tripsides.
Fortunately, everything is new, and most people will have never played a Martian gunline with the new Overwatch rules. (Raiment + Cawl rerolls are insane.)
Here is the list:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1310 Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)
HQ - 280 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 498
Lord of War - 498 1x Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer, 2x Heavy Stubber, Twin Icarus Autocannon, Warlord: Ion Bulwark (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1996 points 13 CP (-3)
Nervous about only running 6 units of troops, regardless of how reliable the Breachers are. I am sorely tempted to cut a Ballistarii to do 6x5 Graia Rangers, but I think I will need every last bit of firepower that I can get.
I think I will just have to control the board and outshoot my opponent.
Yeah. My friend convinced me it's too easy for the Eldar aircraft list to play around any melee Knight. The Crusader with the Icarus Autocannon can threaten aircraft and pulverize bikes.
I think I am prepared for Knights. Literally everything other than my Skitarii can hurt a Knight.
Triptides Tripsides is going to be about abusing my range advantage and turtling my Breachers on objectives.
GSC, Nids, and Orks is about castling with my Knight in front, Breachers behind it, then Robots, my HQs, then Ironstriders. Just gotta kill em all.
Chaos is a big question mark. There are so many variants now.
Anyhow, it's submitted, but I think I can freely change it up until Thursday?
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah. My friend convinced me it's too easy for the Eldar aircraft list to play around any melee Knight. The Crusader with the Icarus Autocannon can threaten aircraft and pulverize bikes.
I think I am prepared for Knights. Literally everything other than my Skitarii can hurt a Knight.
Triptides Tripsides is going to be about abusing my range advantage and turtling my Breachers on objectives.
GSC, Nids, and Orks is about castling with my Knight in front, Breachers behind it, then Robots, my HQs, then Ironstriders. Just gotta kill em all.
Chaos is a big question mark. There are so many variants now.
Anyhow, it's submitted, but I think I can freely change it up until Thursday?
Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 119pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser
++ Total: [93 PL, 7CP, 1498pts] ++
Due to this specific tournament having very dense terrain(id say more than ITC usual one) we took a spin of our forces that.. Next weekend will be interesting. Wish me hot dice.
Octovol wrote: We have individually great models with some contradicting rules and very little interactivity between units. As an army, the rules are pretty awful. We just happen to be saved by having good strategms to prop up the poor rulew writing. See how well you do without any CP and tell me again how good our rules are lol
I agree that we have weird choices of rules (all our melee relics come to mind) but the army as a whole is still strong. Also 8th edition has stratagems as part of the core game, you cannot disreguard them when evaluating an army.
We have answers to everything except psykers. Our anti-horde can also deal with tanks decently and most of our big units are quite resilient. our basic troops are cheap and are great at their job.
Plus we have the OP buff of having the "Imperium" keyword
Agreed.
Though we do have the Graia deny. Sure, isn't "much" and forge world dependent, but on the upside you don't need to pay points for a specialized deny-unit like Inquisitors or psykers, if you play Graia you get it on the house. Not to mention that a flat 4+ to deny any power is great and gets even better because you are able to re-roll it for a CP.
If I look at my Tau... things could be much, MUCH worse for Admech. They can't use allies at all and just have to suck it up when psykers start throwing their strong buffs and debuffs around. NicassarWHEN.jpg
Absolutely agree on everything else in your post.
Quite frankly, I'd rather spend points than having to pay a CP for every single thing I need. If Inquisition wasn't so situational, I'd take them instead of Graia anytime. 50% deny is not bad, don't take me wrong, but... With how I find myself choking on CPs so much in each game, despite bringing 2 Battalions as my go to setup, I definitely don't want to spend any CP that isn't absolutely necessary. And there's a lot to spend those CPs on - Kastelans nuke, Ryzaphrons nuke, Doctrinas for Skitarii, Infiltration, Lucius DS, Assassin and Vigilus formations, knight upgrades... I'm running empty turn 2 or 3 (if Assassin manages to score a character kill meanwhile).
And I that's precisely where I find the stratagem focus really irritating. The army runs fairly well IF you have CPs, and IF the stratagems are not Vected. Whenever one of those happens however, Admech goes immediately into the uphill battle, because the units themselves are not either tough or killy enough, to operate on their own. The situation gets even worse if the opponent knows about this weakness and brins Callidus.
I deny to acknowledge the IG in my lists, just if someone wondered - it might have helped a lot, but I'm not running Admech to mix those guardsman in...
Octovol wrote: We have individually great models with some contradicting rules and very little interactivity between units. As an army, the rules are pretty awful. We just happen to be saved by having good strategms to prop up the poor rulew writing. See how well you do without any CP and tell me again how good our rules are lol
I agree that we have weird choices of rules (all our melee relics come to mind) but the army as a whole is still strong. Also 8th edition has stratagems as part of the core game, you cannot disreguard them when evaluating an army.
We have answers to everything except psykers. Our anti-horde can also deal with tanks decently and most of our big units are quite resilient. our basic troops are cheap and are great at their job.
Plus we have the OP buff of having the "Imperium" keyword
Agreed.
Though we do have the Graia deny. Sure, isn't "much" and forge world dependent, but on the upside you don't need to pay points for a specialized deny-unit like Inquisitors or psykers, if you play Graia you get it on the house. Not to mention that a flat 4+ to deny any power is great and gets even better because you are able to re-roll it for a CP.
If I look at my Tau... things could be much, MUCH worse for Admech. They can't use allies at all and just have to suck it up when psykers start throwing their strong buffs and debuffs around. NicassarWHEN.jpg
Absolutely agree on everything else in your post.
Quite frankly, I'd rather spend points than having to pay a CP for every single thing I need. If Inquisition wasn't so situational, I'd take them instead of Graia anytime. 50% deny is not bad, don't take me wrong, but... With how I find myself choking on CPs so much in each game, despite bringing 2 Battalions as my go to setup, I definitely don't want to spend any CP that isn't absolutely necessary. And there's a lot to spend those CPs on - Kastelans nuke, Ryzaphrons nuke, Doctrinas for Skitarii, Infiltration, Lucius DS, Assassin and Vigilus formations, knight upgrades... I'm running empty turn 2 or 3 (if Assassin manages to score a character kill meanwhile).
And I that's precisely where I find the stratagem focus really irritating. The army runs fairly well IF you have CPs, and IF the stratagems are not Vected. Whenever one of those happens however, Admech goes immediately into the uphill battle, because the units themselves are not either tough or killy enough, to operate on their own. The situation gets even worse if the opponent knows about this weakness and brins Callidus.
I deny to acknowledge the IG in my lists, just if someone wondered - it might have helped a lot, but I'm not running Admech to mix those guardsman in...
You cant control vect but 2 battalions is not enough CP upgrade to a brigade or ditch mono
IronVaught wrote: Am I being ballsy estimating Skorpius Dunerider at 80pts?
Assuming that they won't stack to much special rules then yeah, its probable. Although 4 heavy stubbers its 20 pts, so maybe more like 85. Closest resemblance for me would be sororitias rhino, that is barebones transport with some of the army rules slapped on, and thats 77 pts for version with two stormbolers.
IronVaught wrote: Am I being ballsy estimating Skorpius Dunerider at 80pts?
Assuming that they won't stack to much special rules then yeah, its probable. Although 4 heavy stubbers its 20 pts, so maybe more like 85. Closest resemblance for me would be sororitias rhino, that is barebones transport with some of the army rules slapped on, and thats 77 pts for version with two stormbolers.
My thinking exactly. Except 4 stubbers is just 8 points post CA2018. Super ideal for a transport.
Hope we'll get the Skorpius in preview this week. They can't just show us a transport and let us wait 3 months in the fog. I reckon it'll be around 95 pts but I hope it'll be less too.
I'm a bit late to the party, but with my new job I'm considering buying Hoplites because they're tempting gameplay wise, and very nice models. How do you guys use them, and what do you think of them ? When the transport hits I hope it'll allow to transport <Skitarii> units as well as <Forge-World> so they can ride in. We'll riot to Forge-World to add the keyword to the Secutarii datasheets if they don't.
Aaranis wrote: Hope we'll get the Skorpius in preview this week. They can't just show us a transport and let us wait 3 months in the fog. I reckon it'll be around 95 pts but I hope it'll be less too.
I'm a bit late to the party, but with my new job I'm considering buying Hoplites because they're tempting gameplay wise, and very nice models. How do you guys use them, and what do you think of them ? When the transport hits I hope it'll allow to transport <Skitarii> units as well as <Forge-World> so they can ride in. We'll riot to Forge-World to add the keyword to the Secutarii datasheets if they don't.
It depends entirely on your opponent, but when I use them its mainly for contesting midleboard, especially against melee centric armies. Have you seen Khorne berserker killing themselves? Because I did. For 10 pts per model they actually pose significant threat to strong and durable enemy units and It is a steal. Grotesques and Taloses, custodes bikes and so on. Move them midfield being careful to not add to enemy moment by allowing them for easy charge. If charge is inevitable(harlequins, blood angels orcs, geenestealers abberants and so on) its also good to hide them behind screen and line of sight for countercharge.
They will die, but you will probably easily gain in those exchanges.
Aaranis wrote: Hope we'll get the Skorpius in preview this week. They can't just show us a transport and let us wait 3 months in the fog. I reckon it'll be around 95 pts but I hope it'll be less too.
I'm a bit late to the party, but with my new job I'm considering buying Hoplites because they're tempting gameplay wise, and very nice models. How do you guys use them, and what do you think of them ? When the transport hits I hope it'll allow to transport <Skitarii> units as well as <Forge-World> so they can ride in. We'll riot to Forge-World to add the keyword to the Secutarii datasheets if they don't.
Well, the preview already mentioned electro-priests riding in it, so the Skitarii keyword shouldn't be a factor at least.
Aaranis wrote: Hope we'll get the Skorpius in preview this week. They can't just show us a transport and let us wait 3 months in the fog. I reckon it'll be around 95 pts but I hope it'll be less too.
I'm a bit late to the party, but with my new job I'm considering buying Hoplites because they're tempting gameplay wise, and very nice models. How do you guys use them, and what do you think of them ? When the transport hits I hope it'll allow to transport <Skitarii> units as well as <Forge-World> so they can ride in. We'll riot to Forge-World to add the keyword to the Secutarii datasheets if they don't.
Well, the preview already mentioned electro-priests riding in it, so the Skitarii keyword shouldn't be a factor at least.
Hoplites and Peltasts don't have <Forge World>, which is why I personally wanted it to be Skitarii instead of <Forge World>.
I can't believe Hoplites and Peltasts didn't get that keyword. Also can't believe they aren't Troops. I mean, come on. Our regular Skitarii suck.
I am super torn right now though. I feel too light on infantry, with 3x3 Breachers and 3x5 Vanguard. But Skitarii suck, and I don't have any more Kataphron models. Sigh.
Suzuteo wrote: Too expensive for the purpose I have in mind.
Really, I guess I have just been spoiled by how great Guardsmen are.
Well, no troop will look good if you will compare it to guardsmen, that are not only best troop in the game but arguably best unit in the whole game. Srsl, they are OP right now with how much synergy and utility you can get from them. Skitarii aren't bad, they are actually good, but not guardsmen lvl good. Nothing is.
Yeah Skitarii don't suck, Guardsmen are just OP. And this is the insidiousness of Soup, once you're used to a wide choice of the best of the range, going back to the limitations of mono codex is hard, because you feel like you're handicapping your list building.
Thanks for the advice on Hoplites. It gave me an idea for a Graia Brigade, I'll keep you updated when the list is written. Then I'll do some playtesting next month with some proxies and then decide if I'll make some purchases.
Suzuteo wrote: I can't believe Hoplites and Peltasts didn't get that keyword. Also can't believe they aren't Troops. I mean, come on. Our regular Skitarii suck.
I am super torn right now though. I feel too light on infantry, with 3x3 Breachers and 3x5 Vanguard. But Skitarii suck, and I don't have any more Kataphron models. Sigh.
Skitarii are solid, I don't really get the hate. Like seriously, it could have much, MUCH worse (just look at pretty much all Space Marine troops from most SM/CSM Codices, with very few exceptions).
7 points, 4+ saves that is easily turned into a 3+ during the first two turns, 3+ to hit, 30" max range for camping and objective sitting while still contributing to anti-infantry output, 15" rapid fire, S4 with a chance for AP-1. Sure, they aren't infantry squads, but infantry squads are simply underpriced and overpowered for their point cost (there is a reason that the majority consensus is that they should have gotten a point cost increase as soon as the AM Codex came out), so no surprise absolutely no troop choice can compete with them. So a fair comparison would be e.g. 5 pt cultists. Are all the benefits you get not worth the 2 extra points per model? 35 points for 5 models with a 3+ save against shooting is perfectly adequate for screening duties as well. And that's only looking at Rangers. Sure, you can't build an entire list around them and flood the table like you can with Boyz, Genestealer cultists or even Fire Warriors (45+ model T'au sept Fire Warrior bases even with just a Fireblade are nasty, I love 'em), but even taking 30-40 Skitarii really isn't a waste.
Sure, fire warriors for the same point have more potential, but you NEED to invest points into buffing them (Cadre Fireblades and markerlights, potentially an Ethereal and PAD drone). Skitarii don't, they get their easy access to 3+ saves, 3+ to hit and AP -1 chance on the house. All that's missing are better ways to mitigate morale, so hopefully we will get some more options to buff that down the line (hopefully this means an Alpha Primus HQ choice), though at least it's easy to justify data-tethers for Vanguard because of the added synergy with protector doctrina.
And Vanguards + Calivers are simply good, I think it's hard to dispute that, same as Rangers with Arquebuses.
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 498
Lord of War - 498 1x Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer, 2x Heavy Stubber, Twin Icarus Autocannon, Warlord: Ion Bulwark (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
I prefer Vanguard over Ranger.
But I suppose you are afraid of screening against things like GSC?
Problem is that you just have 3 Ironstriders now and having second turn against eldar flyers might get problematic.
Me too. They work better with the Breachers against things like Orks and MEQs. They also can advance and shoot.
I am afraid of running out of infantry in matchups where objective control is extremely important. But yeah, having more infantry to throw into the blender is important too. Gotta keep those Gallants at bay.
Exactly. Four Ironstriders can bring down one flyer a turn and is a must-kill that forces them to come closer; my Breachers, Dakkabots, and Knight can all move within 12" and shoot to kill them then. Three is not as scary.
On a side note, how are Guardsmen still at 4pts when Cultists are at 5pts? That's egregious and I agree with the sentiment that Guardsmen are far too strong.
I think if they were 5pts, like they should be, it would then be an interesting choice between the different infantry options in the Imperium, Skitarii being a major consideration.
I'm gonna attend a 1.5k Tourney in a bit. They've got some REALLY harsh restrictions like:
-you can only have one unit twice, everything else must be single squads instead of one Troop choice which you can take up to four times
-must be one batallion
-monstrous creatures and the likes can only be in squads of three max.
So I came up with this for inducing Maximum Rage:
Stygies trait
1 Dominus with necromechanic and lands relic
1 Enginseer
1x3 Breachers with Heavy Arc
3x3 Destroyers with Grav/Flamer
1 Datasmith
2x3 Dakka Kastelans
1 Onager with Neutron Laser and Stubbers
I intend to Castle up in the backfield, shield my Kastelans with the Kataphrons and discourage Close Combatants with the 9 Flamers I have at my disposal.
Then Dakka away at everything and repair incoming damage with my characters if possible.
Also Stygies and 2 rounds of Shroudpsalm (via Stratagem) should help.
Morkphoiz wrote: I'm gonna attend a 1.5k Tourney in a bit. They've got some REALLY harsh restrictions like:
-you can only have one unit twice, everything else must be single squads instead of one Troop choice which you can take up to four times
-must be one batallion
-monstrous creatures and the likes can only be in squads of three max.
So I came up with this for inducing Maximum Rage:
Stygies trait
1 Dominus with necromechanic and lands relic
1 Enginseer
1x3 Breachers with Heavy Arc
3x3 Destroyers with Grav/Flamer
1 Datasmith
2x3 Dakka Kastelans
1 Onager with Neutron Laser and Stubbers
I intend to Castle up in the backfield, shield my Kastelans with the Kataphrons and discourage Close Combatants with the 9 Flamers I have at my disposal.
Then Dakka away at everything and repair incoming damage with my characters if possible.
Also Stygies and 2 rounds of Shroudpsalm (via Stratagem) should help.
What do you guys think? Is that cheesy enough?
phew, those are some harsh restrictions.
I personally wouldnt attend an event that added so many restrictions. I'm guessing these restrictions are there because they want to avoid some sort of cheese that was there is the past.
Some armies cant realistically play a battallion without seriously nerfing themselves.
Just to show that the rules are dumb, i'd bring 2x6 destroyers in a ryza servitor maniple. Sprinkle some onagers in there and add some normal servitors to recycle your destroyers.
Morkphoiz wrote: I'm gonna attend a 1.5k Tourney in a bit. They've got some REALLY harsh restrictions like:
-you can only have one unit twice, everything else must be single squads instead of one Troop choice which you can take up to four times
-must be one batallion
-monstrous creatures and the likes can only be in squads of three max.
So I came up with this for inducing Maximum Rage:
Stygies trait
1 Dominus with necromechanic and lands relic
1 Enginseer
1x3 Breachers with Heavy Arc
3x3 Destroyers with Grav/Flamer
1 Datasmith
2x3 Dakka Kastelans
1 Onager with Neutron Laser and Stubbers
I intend to Castle up in the backfield, shield my Kastelans with the Kataphrons and discourage Close Combatants with the 9 Flamers I have at my disposal.
Then Dakka away at everything and repair incoming damage with my characters if possible.
Also Stygies and 2 rounds of Shroudpsalm (via Stratagem) should help.
What do you guys think? Is that cheesy enough?
phew, those are some harsh restrictions.
I personally wouldnt attend an event that added so many restrictions. I'm guessing these restrictions are there because they want to avoid some sort of cheese that was there is the past.
Some armies cant realistically play a battallion without seriously nerfing themselves.
Just to show that the rules are dumb, i'd bring 2x6 destroyers in a ryza servitor maniple. Sprinkle some onagers in there and add some normal servitors to recycle your destroyers.
As long as those don't apply to every-single-goddamn-event organized there, restrictions aren't bad. They can shake up things a little bit, prevent dumb net listing and incentivize smart and innovative list building. So don't bash them, you may not like it, just don't play it and don't bash.
Mork, well, on what you will use your command points? I don't see many uses for those 8 cp, and admech is stratagem centric.
As long as those don't apply to every-single-goddamn-event organized there, restrictions aren't bad. They can shake up things a little bit, prevent dumb net listing and incentivize smart and innovative list building. So don't bash them, you may not like it, just don't play it and don't bash.
Mork, well, on what you will use your command points? I don't see many uses for those 8 cp, and admech is stratagem centric.
yeah i went too negative on my post.
I know restrictions can be fun as a 1-of thing. Its just that from my experience, using restrictions in tournaments is ususally done to remove some of the netlisting/cheese but all it actually does is stifle some armies for no reason.
Not all armies are equal or have the same role.
Also, from the way the OP was, i read it as if it these restrictions were always present in their tourneys.
My suggestion still stands, kataphron are a great all-rounder unit
Morkphoiz wrote: I'm gonna attend a 1.5k Tourney in a bit. They've got some REALLY harsh restrictions like:
-you can only have one unit twice, everything else must be single squads instead of one Troop choice which you can take up to four times
-must be one batallion
-monstrous creatures and the likes can only be in squads of three max.
So I came up with this for inducing Maximum Rage:
Stygies trait
1 Dominus with necromechanic and lands relic
1 Enginseer
1x3 Breachers with Heavy Arc
3x3 Destroyers with Grav/Flamer
1 Datasmith
2x3 Dakka Kastelans
1 Onager with Neutron Laser and Stubbers
I intend to Castle up in the backfield, shield my Kastelans with the Kataphrons and discourage Close Combatants with the 9 Flamers I have at my disposal.
Then Dakka away at everything and repair incoming damage with my characters if possible.
Also Stygies and 2 rounds of Shroudpsalm (via Stratagem) should help.
What do you guys think? Is that cheesy enough?
you could go for:
a servitor maniple of
1x Dominus
1x Manipulus/Enginseer (manipulus grants 11" flamers on the kataphrons for overwatch purposes, and greater range for the plasma culverins)
1x Servitors
1x Infiltrators/Priests/Datasmith (10x infiltrators could thin out hoards with wrath of mars or just 50 shots...)
1x 6/9 plasma Kataphron Destroyers (possibly 6x for Aggripina and bring them back?)
1x Breachers x6 (or just take more units of Breachers instead of skitarii and have those with multiple troops)
up to 4x Skitarii (your multiple troops)
3x Dragoons (one squad)?
2x Onagers (one Neutron one Icarus - as this will give a good spread of ability without the need for CP) (this is also your 2x unit)
castle up, protect the destroyers & onagers with the breachers/skitarii.
servitor maniple for: +1 to hit occasionally on the destroyers, possibly a 5++ on them as well. and allowing your warlord to be the kill a servitor to bring the destroyer back.
take agrippina and 6x destroyers for lols as well - tide of servitors. (you could also give the relic eye for bonus vehicle kills) and double the number of overwatch shots.
10x infiltrators can drop on the backfield and take the objective/camping opponents. 3x dragoons is also a nice deterrant and they are cheap and easy to gain +2 to hit as well.
the onagers - you will probably need at least one onager with neutron to give you the ability to reliabilly kill vehicles without the use of command points. the icarus is there for flyers/infantry killing.
if you had points spare you could go for a unit of rangers with transuranics to cover the backfield and more breachers...
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 478
Lord of War - 478 1x Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer, 2x Heavy Stubber
Total: 1998 points 13 CP (-3)
Wulfey tested the Icarus Autocannon. Apparently, it drastically underperforms due to lack of Cawl rerolls and any plus hit stratagem. Took the opportunity to just add another unit of Skitarii. I would add the Stormspear, but I am not sure I have enough time to finish painting my new one.
Also, multiple people report that this sort of castle concept with Breachers only works if you make Cawl the Warlord. Also because snipers are apparently everywhere and will gun down an Enginseer really fast.
Add to that 4 plasma bot, 3 onagers and bunch of other stuff and basically on my T1 I gave up having lost all mek guns, 12/15 lootas, whole ton of grots(grot screen for lootas) and all I did was 4 wounds to onager despite SSAG firing twice.
: 
We may very well have the most point efficient 
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