lash92 wrote: So I can also reroll hit rolls of 1 in overwatch? Oo
no , because overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack . since it doesnt specify "as if it were the shooting phase" the dominu's aura doesnt apply (because it specifically works in the shooting phase)
Waaaaghmaster wrote: Is this specifically addressed anywhere that could be referenced?
You can check the FAQs for Eldar Fire and Fade stratagem, Eldar Swooping Hawk Grenade Packs, the Tyranid Swarmlordb abilities, and of course, the Auspex Scan stratagem itself. GW consistently rules that "as if" means that for the duration of the action, you pretend as if it were that phase for all rules interactions.
If this weren't true, then most Ynnari tricks don't work, Daemons don't fly during Psychic phase moves, and No Method Beyond... is a rules implosion.
But if that's not enough, I have an email chain where the organizers of LVO agreed on this ruling, with the implication that is it were not the case, then Ynnari have been getting away with murder for a really long time.
It depends on the rule if it says reroll hit rolls of 1 like a SM CPT then yes
If it says reroll hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase like a dominous then no you dont because it is not the shooting phase and the rule appplies to the phase of the game not the model.
Lvo specific rulings arnt evidence unless your dealing with lvo
There are plenty of discusions on this in ymdc thats where you should go for rulings
Today's report. A semi-competitive ITC vs 1kS at 1750. Cut to the Heart. He had Magnus, Tzangors on discs, 2x Tzangor casters, Rubrics with gatling riding the Rhino, Sorcerer on a disc, Heldrake, FW 1kS Dred. I had the Cawlstar: 4 Kastelans, 4 Destroyers (Plazma+Flamers), 4 Breachers (2x Arc Claws, 2x Hydraulics), Culexus, Drill+12 Fulgurites, Manipulus, and some Skitarii. Pure Mars.
He made a mistake and charged Magnus straight into my lines. Crashed a unit of Skitarii guarding a chokepoint, but left him in the open for my return shooting. However, due to poor rolls, I had to literary shoot my entire army into the Magnus - burnt almost all of my CPs and barely killed him. The last 2 wounds were taken by Manipulus flamer... Magnus had -1 hit, and 3++, but I expected him to drop way sooner.
As he was combat heavy, and I had my Kastelans Binharic-rooted, I had to rely on Breachers and Skitarii to sustain the damage. And... they did. Skitarii obviously died, no surprise, but they've bought just enough time and stopped enough Tzangors, so my Breachers could tank longer. I was pretty much clearing 1kS with Kastelans. He got to Robots in the end, but too late to twist the game.
Unfortunately, my opinion about the Cawl being a big and pricy pushover was confirmed again - he failed to kill the Sorcerer on a disc, while having his ass handed to himself in return. Cawl almost died in combat when charged and attacked first (!!!), unable to kill the Sorc, while he was pounded for 5 wounds. Ate 2 wounds smite. And to add the burn, he ate the freaking pistol shot - that's what took him out eventually... Manipulus was not too great in combat either - collapsed immediately vs Tzangors. At least his flamer got a few models out. Culexus whiffed - he dealt close to no damage this game and, sadly, didn't affect the casting too much.
So conclusions:
1. I do not expect Admech's characters to do anything in CC. It's not a surprise, we knew about it. But it's still worth reminding from time to time. Especially Cawl, whose combat abilities and survivability are just a big disappointment.
2. The Canticles manipulation however made a difference - having constant rerolling 1s in the fight, and +1S, gave my Skitarii, Fulgurites, and Breachers, an edge.
3. I will play with Breachers a little bit more - they seem to sustain a lot of damage. Especially when you manage to set up two layer screening, having cheap Skitarii in the first one to take an early blow.
4. Hydraulic Claw is not worth it though, not in this number of models at least. Too many misses.
5. Drill and Fulgurites - fantastic, as always.
@dadamowsky
1. Cawl is a bully. Don't charge him into things that can actually fight back. Unless you're desperate, I guess.
2. Yeah, the +1S, morale, and reroll can be all be useful at times.
5. Even as pure Mars? Interesting.
I'm actually reconfiguring my list to be pure AdMech to satisfy the new ITC faction rules. My issues:
1) Breachers seem popular, but I have no idea how to use them, and being trapped on a business trip in Japan means I won't get to learn before BAO rolls around. At the same time, without Dagger, the Ryza Destroyers are very vulnerable.
2) What the hell do I do for indirect fire? I guess I have to take Assassin and Infiltrators, or I just won't be able to touch enemies hiding behind buildings?
3) Big mixed FW Brigade or a Mars + Stygies Battalions?
So it seems like I will be building a faux-Soup army around a Krast Styrix and Cawlstar? Or do I want to do Justin Lois and bring Stygies Drill + Fulgurites + Dragoons to help apply pressure? Not so sure if AdMech can cut it in melee against some of the stronger fighting armies.
Suzuteo wrote: @dadamowsky
1. Cawl is a bully. Don't charge him into things that can actually fight back. Unless you're desperate, I guess.
2. Yeah, the +1S, morale, and reroll can be all be useful at times.
5. Even as pure Mars? Interesting.
While Drill can't take benefits from the Canticles, Fulgurites sure can. Having a chance to switch one fo the Canticles to RR1s in combat, while having any other as the second one for the rest of the army, is a boon. As you can basically play two different games in different parts of the table.
I'm actually reconfiguring my list to be pure AdMech to satisfy the new ITC faction rules. My issues:
1) Breachers seem popular, but I have no idea how to use them, and being trapped on a business trip in Japan means I won't get to learn before BAO rolls around. At the same time, without Dagger, the Ryza Destroyers are very vulnerable.
Can't say I'm expert, however they are tanky. And I guess that's their purpose. Their Arc Rifles will not kill a knight, but to degrade a common vehicles (or the upcoming Demon Engines spam lists) it should be helpful. IMO treat them as the core of your 2+ layered screen - let the Skitarii up front take a first blow of... anything, while keeping Breachers behind so the Skitarii wouldn't be wrapped in combat easily (big bases of the Breachers helps at blocking sliding shenanigans).
2) What the hell do I do for indirect fire? I guess I have to take Assassin and Infiltrators, or I just won't be able to touch enemies hiding behind buildings?
In a pure Admech it's the DS. I dig Lucius Corpuscarii for the task, Infiltrators will be a bit cheaper option as well. I haven't played with Peltasts, they do have no-LoS shooting, maybe that's what you're looking for.
3) Big mixed FW Brigade or a Mars + Stygies Battalions?
Too much tax in a Brigade IMO. I mean, 3x Balistarii and 3xEradinagers are not a nightmare to pay for, but if I am building a streamlined list I'd rather have those 180 points put elsewhere. Double Battalions is my go-to.
So it seems like I will be building a faux-Soup army around a Krast Styrix and Cawlstar? Or do I want to do Justin Lois and bring Stygies Drill + Fulgurites + Dragoons to help apply pressure? Not so sure if AdMech can cut it in melee against some of the stronger fighting armies.
Well, off the top of my head, the Brigade I am thinking of costs roughly 1518 points; Dominus, Manipulus, Enginseer, 6x5 Rangers, 8x Infiltrators, 2x4 Servitors, 3x Icarus Crawlers, 2x1 Lascannon Ballistarii, 6x Dragoons. Probably a mix of Mars, Stygies, and Graia.
With a minimal Krast Styrix, I have less than 10 points or so to play with. Haha...
It's doable of course, but you're losing a lot of goodies IMO. Dragoons without the -2 to hit will be a lot more squishy. You have barely a room to squeeze the Assassin in - you basically have to give up Manipulus and reduce Infiltrators. I haven't played with Brigade in a long time however, maybe it's viable in the end - 15CPs are tasty indeed.
After playing all these games with ad mech 10 league and 10 in tourneys i have to say .
TRanforming the list towards solo ad mech with with breachers is a good point. breachers are tought enough with 1-2+ save
i use 18 cp now 3 battalions and i spamm 5+ invu.
As of late i tested 3 destroyers for mars and 4 Robots while i made my vigilus detach ment Ryza for a nasty group of plama and breachers with one dominus. Seems able to do extra flavor thingsbut lost some survivability.
Ryza plasma and breachers with dominus work fine got rerolls all cc miss and rr 1 wounds in cc from Ryza is superb switching some hydralic. Ryza plasma hides in range and use aquisitiona t all costs to survive + shroudpsalm thats it.
you need to play 1-2-3 more defensive vs antilists
like heavy disindegrator spamm etc.
At that point playing first is somewhat vital cause you are playing a full troop army. if your enemy play Deldar you cant survive but if play first if play smart with range and yo manage to hit first in some cases the damage out put is extreme. beyond extreme.
I can see astra militarum battery working with the list beyond assasins but i want to remain pure mech.
If you add guard battery and mortars is not bad .The assasin is vital vital vital.
i use 2-4 breacher Groups in front since thats their job. rangers i got in the back cause i use snipers. and last games vanguard in between to make my hq actually worth it in melee vs troops etc. At this point i will repeat the list requires to be Hordish to work. a unit of 7 breachers and a units of 6 destroyers are not working. 15 breachers will tank almost anyhting long eough for Robots plasma rya plasma wrath of mars etc to wipe antyhting of the table. Thats it. a simple 3-4 Robot with Cawl and plasma destroeyrs as gun line rest there to protect them thats it. All infantry making enemy heavy guns obsolete and all your army able to secure obj etc.
Eliminate enemies for 2 rounds then push forth. if you play first its game breaking. Shroudpsalm pick if you have to round 1-2 morale also good first rounds then utilize melee canticles.
i will not take again onagers that cant fight melee like robots cause it locks my list. same goes for rest of units ec with known issues of mech.
Rows of breachers and destroyers fall back move shoot etc fight back in melee and so forth.
Thanks for the advice. Your list actually sounds like Don Hooson's, which featured 10 Blightlord Terminators acting as a shield/anvil for Double Avenger Knight, Helverins, and Plagueburst Crawlers. (You have 2x4 Breachers acting as a shield/anvil for 4x Kastelans and 6x Ryzaphrons.)
Which Assassin options are you using now? Culexus and Eversor?
Still having troubling fitting everything in now. I think I need to be more conservative with the CP and build around the Knight.
Yes the idea I v been working for some years now . From Abbadon cultists and bliightlordd with cloud of flies. And k had tested full terminal list with blooghtlorrds and tsons . Still this is a gun line to begiin with. Termie lists work diiffently .
When I said to use plasma blighlord WTH clud of flies Don was playing other options. Tried to xplain to many people how plasma was op and is for me but Nerf arrived back then now for me plasma is the way to go. Sure there are other nice options but Robots ≤ all.
Personally, with how CP hungry armies have became, my #1 is Callidus. #2 Culexus
Draining Ork out of CPs round 1 is substantial help in countering Lootas for instance. They need More Dakka and shoot twice to be relevant, and yet Ork needs Green Tide, Gretchin shield and rerolls at the same time. My last match against Ork he used 10 CPs round 1, without me even having the Callidus. Other armies, from each faction, are also draining their CP pools very fast - imagine Vect costing 5 CPs
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1898 points 13 CP (-4)
I immediately identified some problems:
-Not much infantry; difficult to control ground
-Not much fighting to protect the Kastelans aside from the Knight
-High HQ costs
I could just drop the Assassins and add more Vanguard. But signs point to me cutting the Ryzaphrons and their HQ, which are very vulnerable without the Dagger and consume CP anyway. I guess this would mean the entire detachment can become Graia. I would then add some Breachers, which I now sort of realize act as a glue for pure AdMech lists:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1210 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1905 points 13 CP (-3)
Given a choice between Cohort and Maniple, I went with Cohort for the first turn flexibility. I don't want to take a Dominus and sink 4 CP into these Breachers anyway. Is this a mistake? And people favor Graia Vanguard over Rangers, yes?
I will also try playing around with making a Brigade list, but what does everything think about this one to start?
Beyond the knight which i sont use since its Fw and i can only wish you luck i have to say again the plan with breachers and destroyers requires somewhat a spam unit.
That said i ll try to explain a few key points.
2 battalions one mars one Ryza. Can work but using the knight and the robots and the kataprhons you become extremely cp hungry to reach full potential.
Robots you need max 3-4 else you risk becoming again stationary. 3-4 Robots actng as antihorde threat gives you the result you need while if you get locked you risk only 330 points not 660. Taking 6 Robots you define a stationary gun line and that is what we try to avoid some years now.
What you need to be effective.
1) 3 Robots with wrath of mars do the job
2) 3 destroyers MArs to use 2 cp and buff robots and 3 plasma with +1 to hit
3) Ranger to fill the MArs detachemnt.
Ryza.
1) Dominus with hermeticon
2) 2 big groups of breachers 4-5 each
3) A big unist of Plasma destroyers 5+
you can use dominus for +1 to hit on them so full overcharge and ofc the vigilus detachment for 5+ invu flavor.
Drawbacks i already gone to 3 battalions for cp and i m afraid you might find the same results as well. I m not sure about the points but you dont need any more troops and if you have more points servitors can hold objectives and use for replenish.
You need to have units of 4+ breachers to be a ble to screen effectively and i can understand you got a knight that surelly helps but breachers are cheap 2+ bla bla bla infantry.
The knight provides what? he tanks in front of your gun line ? charge forth is your assault then what. Robots have a role and its not plasma destroeyers role and its not breachers role. you will not be affective or able to utilise breachers or destroyers by just adding them to a list.
Current game meta has extreme advantages when used as plan. adding a knight will not give you better results cause all heavy guns of the nemy will target him .
while if you got tought breachers as screen the enemy will have to waste his big guns towards cheap units . The point is to become somewhat
1) a Hight T list like knight list?
2) a good hordish list with tons of infarntry
3) elit Army.
This combination requires some spamming in troops to be affective.
if you dont use elimination volley if you dont use wrath of mars Cawl rereolls etc etc then you dont have the max ad mech result.
to recap why we settled this list. and i m not trying to convince anyone just writting how the concept works after reading your lists and 100% sure you ll not have the results im talking about.
Wanna play a knight perfect. setup onagers Dragoons stygies etc so you ll make a good -1 to hit hight T list etc etc moveing bla bla. its a plan.
I want to take advantage of.
1) Cawl extreme shooting buff ad mech got so i can deal with enemy Tanks -1 to hit fliers etc. He is the main buffer and he is making the list aboe average or simple shooter.
2) double canticles. Breachers T5 3W 1-2+ armor 30 points usually has. shroud and +1 str. reroll miss in melee and reroll 1 woundng from Ryza. making them a terminator equal unit TROOP. you dont care if you loose him you dont care if you move it it can give you arc shots vs all things bad for you like vehicles planes transports knights. since even if you pass only one shot its D6 damage. + aquire at all costs 4 cc att
3) Ryza plsma or destroyers plasma in general. Atm with 5+ invu and a ryza specialist d6 shots its broken for 48-49 points.
using the +1 to hit or +2 if ytou make a large group MArs you can actually have the only Plasma able to hit fliers and eliminate them. SO you got a 42+6 +1-2 bsd6 plasma 2-3 wound / shot rerolling hits wounding on 2-4? .
So to recap. Wanna play priests onagers dragoons knight good for you same utility use 3 cp play priests againe tc. Dragoons -2 to hit onageer move shoot icarus bla bla.
Wanna ustilize hordish breachers shooting etc go for it but do it. Make a plan and play it. and im talking about extreme competitive games where you chasign results stability etc.
mixing will not provide sorry. Because in my humble opinion the game atm provides results with numbers. Especially if we talking about troops.
thats my 50 cent. so far.
p.s The list with onagers icarus knight helverins dragoons and priests i use in 1500 games and i got 6-0 so far its a high tough army list close to knight list with -1 to get hit and some dominus.
@Yoda79
You're probably right. I think I should go with what I am familiar with rather than try to relearn a new method from scratch. And what I know best are Dragoons, Kastelans, and tons of infantry.
Plus, I don't have enough Breachers, and the only reason why 3x3 Breachers might work out is that I have my Destroyers magnetized.
Next list is going to be a Brigade. Either pure Stygies or mixed to get Graia infantry and Mars Infiltrators. Basically, just have a very annoying and mobile AdMech army supporting a Knight that has access to 18 CP. Going to have to think a bit on it though.
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 2002 points 15 CP (-4)
Two points over right now, but this is the concept.
Mixed Forge Worlds. Dragoons can infiltrate turn one. Knight moves up with them and the Enginseers; one is a repairman, anti-Psyker, and carries Mask for Dragoon/Infiltrator buffs; the other carries the Eye for shooting buffs. Ironstriders and Crawlers be chilling with the Dominus. Assassin and Sicarans deep strike to delete trouble enemies. Rangers and Servitors camp objectives and deny deep strike. Lots and lots of CP for the Infiltrators, Dragoons, and Knight to use.
Oh, and given I have Eye and a Krast Styrix, this list is going to give any Chaos player a really, really bad day.
Initially tried to fit Breachers in, but the more and more I thought about it, the less appealing it seemed. This list has options to handle vehicles and melee so eh.
The above looks like it has a fair bit of bite especially the 3x agripiina dunecrawlers.
My only thoughts to counter would be only 30 troops means you’d maybe need to be a bit careful with objectives and board control. Losing the -2 on the stygies dragoons as well is a bit of a bummer.
Good luck in your test games (when you entirely get time to play em lol)
Yeah. Icarus Crawlers are still amazing value in this meta.
There are also the Servitors and the shooting vehicles to camp objectives, but yeah, it can be a concern.
Most armies have some way to deal with minus to hit. I don't think it is good protection anymore except against very unprepared players. The key is really to just get them down the field along with the Knight.
I might cut another 2 Infiltrators (which is less than ideal, since 8 seems to be a magic number in my math) to get the 2 points; fortunately, I have the Eversor if I really need to double down on anti-horde. I will probably use the spares to upgrade the Skitarii to Vanguard and give two of the Crawlers their Heavy Stubbers.
I'm considering using the 3CP outflank IK strategm to bring my knight styrix on from a board edge then flame the crap out of something with the rad cleanser and try and charge in. I dont have to worry unless something can ignore overwatch beacsue that rad cleanser will take care of anything bar hordes trying to charge me.
Melta/fusion/haywire is an issue but people having a knight in their backfield are probably too distracted to do anything about what I have in front of them.
Just beware that this forces you to take an Imperial Knight and not an Mechanicus.
So you lose machine spirit resurgent and 5+++ against Mortal Wounds which makes Haywire even deadlier.
Doctrine Foreas Servo-skull. So it just gives the datasmiith ability to another hq or does it change the Robot protocol the same round? What you think about it ??
I have had it ruled both ways. In my opinion the instant change is obviously better but not broken. I just wish GW would completly get rid of the 'cant move when in double shoot mode'. Its not needed, if they get tagged they cant shoot or fall back far enough to not get tagged next turn plus the save is increased. Is that not enough of a punishment for double shoot? Why do we have the only unit in the game that to fire twice we can never move again?
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 2002 points 15 CP (-4)
Two points over right now, but this is the concept.
Mixed Forge Worlds. Dragoons can infiltrate turn one. Knight moves up with them and the Enginseers; one is a repairman, anti-Psyker, and carries Mask for Dragoon/Infiltrator buffs; the other carries the Eye for shooting buffs. Ironstriders and Crawlers be chilling with the Dominus. Assassin and Sicarans deep strike to delete trouble enemies. Rangers and Servitors camp objectives and deny deep strike. Lots and lots of CP for the Infiltrators, Dragoons, and Knight to use.
Oh, and given I have Eye and a Krast Styrix, this list is going to give any Chaos player a really, really bad day.
Initially tried to fit Breachers in, but the more and more I thought about it, the less appealing it seemed. This list has options to handle vehicles and melee so eh.
Thoughts?
The list looks fun, the list could be a great shock to Chaos players! However how are you going to get the repairman enginseer to keep up with the knight/Inflitrators - he's graia so no deep strike or infiltrate? Also enginseers are very easy to pick off with assassins now,
Envii wrote: I have had it ruled both ways. In my opinion the instant change is obviously better but not broken. I just wish GW would completly get rid of the 'cant move when in double shoot mode'. Its not needed, if they get tagged they cant shoot or fall back far enough to not get tagged next turn plus the save is increased. Is that not enough of a punishment for double shoot? Why do we have the only unit in the game that to fire twice we can never move again?
that would probably be too strong, or warrant a points increase.
Changing protocols shouldnt be free and if you allwoed the bots to move while in double shoot, you would make their main counter way worse.
Sure it feels bad when the melee unit gets locked in combat with them, but you shouldp robably look at your screen if that happens too often
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 2002 points 15 CP (-4)
Two points over right now, but this is the concept.
Mixed Forge Worlds. Dragoons can infiltrate turn one. Knight moves up with them and the Enginseers; one is a repairman, anti-Psyker, and carries Mask for Dragoon/Infiltrator buffs; the other carries the Eye for shooting buffs. Ironstriders and Crawlers be chilling with the Dominus. Assassin and Sicarans deep strike to delete trouble enemies. Rangers and Servitors camp objectives and deny deep strike. Lots and lots of CP for the Infiltrators, Dragoons, and Knight to use.
Oh, and given I have Eye and a Krast Styrix, this list is going to give any Chaos player a really, really bad day.
Initially tried to fit Breachers in, but the more and more I thought about it, the less appealing it seemed. This list has options to handle vehicles and melee so eh.
Thoughts?
The list looks fun, the list could be a great shock to Chaos players! However how are you going to get the repairman enginseer to keep up with the knight/Inflitrators - he's graia so no deep strike or infiltrate? Also enginseers are very easy to pick off with assassins now,
I usually deploy them in front; it's not every game where I deploy my Knight as far forward as possible. Against matchups like Eldar, that is asking to get Jinxed, Doomed, and reduced into a nuclear fireball. Deploy conservatively, whittle them down. (That being said, I do feel I need more infantry. Makes me nervous how few I have now.)
Doing double Battalions now. Stygies and Graia for maximum durability. Trying to get the melee/shooting mixture right...
Envii wrote: I have had it ruled both ways. In my opinion the instant change is obviously better but not broken. I just wish GW would completly get rid of the 'cant move when in double shoot mode'. Its not needed, if they get tagged they cant shoot or fall back far enough to not get tagged next turn plus the save is increased. Is that not enough of a punishment for double shoot? Why do we have the only unit in the game that to fire twice we can never move again?
that would probably be too strong, or warrant a points increase.
Changing protocols shouldnt be free and if you allwoed the bots to move while in double shoot, you would make their main counter way worse.
Sure it feels bad when the melee unit gets locked in combat with them, but you shouldp robably look at your screen if that happens too often
They could just make it double shots if you didnt move, like every other similar ability that has no real drastic downside.
They would be a much more dynamic unit if it was a choice between simply melee and shooting.
Protector would be 5++ at range and double shots if stood still
Conqueror would be 5++ in combat and double attacks if charging or charged
Aegis would be 5++ at both range and in combat and 2+ regular save but no attack bonus.
Robots already hit on a 4+ so theres hardly any reason to penalise them even further.
I’d almost go as far as saying the kastellan fists should be a mandatory cost but not take up your heavy phosphor shots. The model looks like it would hammer you pretty hard guns or no.
Changing protocol should be instant but on a roll of a 2+ as it used to be. That way changing protocol via binharic is still useful, but makes shepherding a datasmith round with them actually worth doing. Makes the vigilus artifact more useful too.
Declaring mode beforehand is a key part of trying to capture the old awkward program of the robots. They brace or start to power up and the enemy sees it and can act accordingly.
Really the cheat strats need to go (that let you change on the spot) and the robots can then be priced accordingly.
Locking out the previous option is not enough of a downside to not just ignore the main key rules of the robots. They're good shooting twice, so make them shoot twice - be nice if you could redeploy but that'd cost more points or time so don't bother.
Tastyfish wrote: Declaring mode beforehand is a key part of trying to capture the old awkward program of the robots. They brace or start to power up and the enemy sees it and can act accordingly.
Really the cheat strats need to go (that let you change on the spot) and the robots can then be priced accordingly.
Locking out the previous option is not enough of a downside to not just ignore the main key rules of the robots. They're good shooting twice, so make them shoot twice - be nice if you could redeploy but that'd cost more points or time so don't bother.
I agree with you, my Idea would be to remove the binaric override and give the datasmith the ability to change it on a 1-3 on the next turn and on a 4+ its changed immediatly
I actually would specify that it fails on a 1, changes immediately on a 4+, and is delayed otherwise.
Question for you guys: How are you all differentiating your Skitarii? I am doing two Battalions right now, one Stygies and one Graia. However, all my Vanguard-counts-as-Rangers look the same!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Weird follow-up, but I was just thinking about cutting down my gunline and incorporating Manipulus, and I came up with something interesting:
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 1991 points 13 CP (-3)
Has anyone tried something like this? It's rough, but the plan is as follows:
1) Load Manipulus, 11 Fulgurites into the Drill.
2) Infiltrate Drill and Dragoons.
3) Unload, Bolster Warriors.
4) Drill can move 9", Fulgurites 7", Dragoons 11", Manipulus can move and advance 8"+D6 while still shooting.
5) Everyone can charge 2D6+1"
Meanwhile, Knight can move 12" and shoot. Ironstriders can move and use PDI to shoot at 3+.
Basically, it feels like 7E again, with the crazy amount of movement.
Only wrinkle: Can you use "at the start of your Movement phase" abilities after choosing to disembark at the start of your Movement phase? I am thinking yes, since the start of the Movement phase is "before the transport moves."
Basically manipulus needs an faq/errata to the bolster skills to remove that beginning of movement restriction or for it just to be an aura that starts on movement that you can only change at the beginning of movement phase for it to truly be its most useful.
Telegraphing the robot protocol is what makes it a pain to use. The telegraph itself is a penalty on top of the restrictions each mode applies and the inflexibility this forces. You can in no way react to the battlefield because youre always an entire turn behind.
These are both just examples of the many ill conceived and poorly written mechanics we’re saddled with. The manipulus rules show that the writer of the rules for our codex is still on staff somewhere making sure we’re as frustrated as possible with our choice of army. Thats their intention right? Because its sure as hell not like the intentions of the other codex writers trying to make their army’s cool, interesting and usable \rant
Yeah, YMDK says this won't work. A pity. But I think the list concept is cool. Reminds me of early codex when we were arguing for using the Canticle and just not bothering with HQs at all. Now I have 154 points to play with.
Totally. There is no case where telegraphing the Protocol change works.
They pair pretty well with Blood Angels, Black Templars, and any sort of SM bikes. AdMech basically has a great firebase that can efficiently kill tanks, vehicles, bikes, and flyers. They lack high mobility options, scouts, and well-rounded options that can fight and shoot. (Poor Space Wolves...) Well, until we got affordable Breachers, I guess.
Gangland wrote: Yeah I heard that Blood Angels were a good ally (guard being better) but I wanted to see if vanilla marines are a good fit as well.
Sure. There is the Black Templars Blender Captain and Raven Guard biker spam. Not sure what else.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Crunched some numbers. I discovered 4x Las Ballistarii are wayyy better than 3x Neutron Crawler in virtually all cases because of Protector Doctrina Imperative. (Not to mention Cognis Overwatch and Dunestriders.)
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 2002 points 13 CP (-3)
Need to cut 2 points though. Might need to drop a Fulgurite.
Also considering if I want Graia FNP+ or if I want to move the Dominus and Ironstriders into the other detachment and add the Eye of Xi-Lexum. Twin Lascannons that hit on 2+ and reroll failed wounds!
Gangland wrote: Yeah I heard that Blood Angels were a good ally (guard being better) but I wanted to see if vanilla marines are a good fit as well.
Sure. There is the Black Templars Blender Captain and Raven Guard biker spam. Not sure what else.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Crunched some numbers. I discovered 4x Las Ballistarii are wayyy better than 3x Neutron Crawler in virtually all cases because of Protector Doctrina Imperative. (Not to mention Cognis Overwatch and Dunestriders.)
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 2002 points 13 CP (-3)
Need to cut 2 points though. Might need to drop a Fulgurite.
Also considering if I want Graia FNP+ or if I want to move the Dominus and Ironstriders into the other detachment and add the Eye of Xi-Lexum. Twin Lascannons that hit on 2+ and reroll failed wounds!
I've been using 4 auto-balistarii as a kind of halfway house, 2 damage but double the shots works great against elites. also cognis overwatch on both units is awesome lol
lash92 wrote: What are you guys using as your Servitor models? Can't really see myself buying the old ones....
I use Scouts with hoodless ranger heads, cut away both arms. Replace one with a powerfist/servoarm/gun to your liking and the second arm has just some big cables hanging around like a disconnected arm.
lash92 wrote: What are you guys using as your Servitor models? Can't really see myself buying the old ones....
I use Scouts with hoodless ranger heads, cut away both arms. Replace one with a powerfist/servoarm/gun to your liking and the second arm has just some big cables hanging around like a disconnected arm.
Yes. Crapcast is brittle as hell. I heated mine until they were soft and bent them into shape. But after the first one broke during building, I said "screw it" and just didn't install the rest.
Same goes for Skitarii antennae. When they break, I just snip the stub off and paint over it. Broken antenna? What antenna?
thats how i was with my tau firewarriors.
They all have that tiny antenna on their helmet. Eventually i stopped even gluing it on
Those tiny bits add a lot of character but they are soooo easy to break
lash92 wrote: What are you guys using as your Servitor models? Can't really see myself buying the old ones....
I use Scouts with hoodless ranger heads, cut away both arms. Replace one with a powerfist/servoarm/gun to your liking and the second arm has just some big cables hanging around like a disconnected arm.
lash92 wrote: What are you guys using as your Servitor models? Can't really see myself buying the old ones....
I dislike the old servitor models too, aswell as the price tag for them so I made my own with the leftover neophyte hybrids that come with the killteam starter box.
I have some of the actual GW models, just in case anyone wishes me to use them instead of my conversions etc.
but I have converted the Negavolt cultists from the blackstone fortress as servitors, chop the arms off for a kataphron breacher claw & cables like a few other ones above, and shorten the electric cables on the head a bit as well.
when it comes out I will be getting 4 of the combat arena servitors for use in my AdMech army, shame there has not really been many hints about the release date for this yet
lash92 wrote: What are you guys using as your Servitor models? Can't really see myself buying the old ones....
I dislike the old servitor models too, aswell as the price tag for them so I made my own with the leftover neophyte hybrids that come with the killteam starter box.
Yeah. Whenever anyone asks me what they should start AdMech Skitarii with, I recommended that Kill Team starter box. It's like buying 20 Skitarii on the cheap because you can make Rangers, then slap Vanguard heads on the GSC infantry to make Vanguard. (Cut off the heretical icons, of course.) The terrain can be resold quite easily. That or you can play Kill Team with your new army of 20 dudes.
EDIT: Totally just realized that box is discontinued. Oh well.
Another fun option: Buy Blood Bowl Skaven and cheap Skitarii guns. Sell the Gutter Runners (90% the price of the box) and kitbash some $1 Skaventarii. If I weren't already so committed to my current Skitarii, this would be what I'd do. Haha.
lash92 wrote: What are you guys using as your Servitor models? Can't really see myself buying the old ones....
I don't have any Servitors, but I am interested to hear if you have found them worth taking in a game (assuming you are not just getting them for modelling/collecting...). They seem utterly terrible in the rules...
(did they get a buff in one of the random supplements? it's getting hard to keep up and I can't afford to buy everything just for some obscure perk...)
I use them in my new tournament list. Reason is the specialist detachment in the first Vigilus book. There you get a Warlord trait which allows you to resurrect a fallen Kataphron destroyer by sacrificing an Servitor. So you trade a 5 pts model for a 50 pt model.
Also the same detachment + the point drops in the latest chapter approved make Destroyers really really strong (if played as Ryza)
lash92 wrote: I use them in my new tournament list. Reason is the specialist detachment in the first Vigilus book. There you get a Warlord trait which allows you to resurrect a fallen Kataphron destroyer by sacrificing an Servitor. So you trade a 5 pts model for a 50 pt model.
Also the same detachment + the point drops in the latest chapter approved make Destroyers really really strong (if played as Ryza)
I actually played my 3 destroyers as heavy grav the other day and found much greater success. mainly because I wasn't hamstringing myself by going ryza and having to spend CP every turn to make them viable. 15 shots ap -3 abd d3 damage the str doesn't even make that much difference, the static 5 shots with re-rolls and potentially +1 to hit from elimination volley or the presence of cawl give a much more natural force multiplier than straight spending CP.
I might be biased because i always find Plasma underwhelming, without overcharging or ryza strategms the damage is just rubbish.
Sure without Ryza they aren't nearly half as good.
Since I'm going mixed FW anyway I'm not really using much.
If you have the chance to take 6-9 Ryzaphrons go for it, it's hilarious. Wounding most vehicles on 2+ with flat 3 dmg. It's like a ranged smash captain with 6d6 attacks
I feel like 3 is also pretty small as far as squad size goes. It's not really worth to boost them with stratagems if you have such a small squad size. I wouldn't even bother taking the specialist detachment.
lash92 wrote: Sure without Ryza they aren't nearly half as good.
Since I'm going mixed FW anyway I'm not really using much.
If you have the chance to take 6-9 Ryzaphrons go for it, it's hilarious. Wounding most vehicles on 2+ with flat 3 dmg. It's like a ranged smash captain with 6d6 attacks
I feel like 3 is also pretty small as far as squad size goes. It's not really worth to boost them with stratagems if you have such a small squad size. I wouldn't even bother taking the specialist detachment.
i personally run 6 plasma destroyers in a mixed detachment, in a servitor maniple.
Dominus (Ryza)
Enginseer (Lucius)
6 Destroyers (Ryza)
2x Vanguards (Graia)
4x Servitors (Ryza)
sometimes i'll add some Mars infiltrators so i can wrath of mars with them
its really strong, hide your kataphrons in a building during deployment, then walk them out and point and click delete vehicles.
The difference between Grav and Plasma is huge, sure grav gets you more shots on average, but they wound vehicles on 4-5 (so you want to shoot them at MEQ / TEQ) with plasma they wound anything with T7 and lower on a 2+ with ap -3 and 3 damage, its brutal.
You can also make the Servitors Graia, it doesn't specify that they have to be from the same FWIIRC.
Since I'm buying the manipulus box soon I get 5 Infiltrators. Are they worth it for WoM? I plan to take a squad of 7-10.
Since I ally in guard I can even hide them in reserve with the dagger trick. But building also work really well, since they are infantry and just can move up from the ground floor.
lash92 wrote: You can also make the Servitors Graia, it doesn't specify that they have to be from the same FWIIRC.
Since I'm buying the manipulus box soon I get 5 Infiltrators. Are they worth it for WoM? I plan to take a squad of 7-10.
Since I ally in guard I can even hide them in reserve with the dagger trick. But building also work really well, since they are infantry and just can move up from the ground floor.
youre right about the servitors, i assumed that it was <forgeworld> bound.
a 5-man infiltrator squad is good, i rarely use WoM on them, just dropping them in a backfield objective and clearing it with flechettes is good enough for me, i'll use WoM when i try to take down something tougher like an HQ with decent saves. I often run 2x5 infiltrators since it gives me tons of map presence, when i drop them alongside 3 assassins i basicalyl take control of the map.
and yeah, i dont ally guard so i need to figure out a way to hide them. the only risk is them getting charged with no overwatch (through the wall) but i've got tons of screen.
Ideasweasel wrote: Completely off topic (mods slap me later) but does anyone reckon this FAQ might drop next week?
I’m itching to pull the trigger on some models but fear I will be making a big mistake
I´m definitely waiting with all my purchases. The first two FAQs had both huge meta changes and refering to Goeff Robinson he said in the last CT podcast that the FAQ will be pretty big.
Especially if you would want to buy a knight I would way, since there is some nerf potential.
Depends on the knight.
The only knights people are consistently complaining about (that i hear anyway) are the bigger knights. I.e. ones from FW or castellans.
Vineheart01 wrote: Depends on the knight.
The only knights people are consistently complaining about (that i hear anyway) are the bigger knights. I.e. ones from FW or castellans.
Unless it's changes to allies. Mainstream Broodbrother rules (half CP) for factions other than your warlord - or CP being faction limited.
Former lets Admech/Knights work fine, latter is trickier.
I am guessing that they will hit Castellan durability, such as making Ion Bulwark a relic or cap its effects at 4++. They also said they were going to rewrite Ynnari rules this year. Probably give it its own codex with a nerfed Soulburst?
Suzuteo wrote: I am guessing that they will hit Castellan durability, such as making Ion Bulwark a relic or cap its effects at 4++. They also said they were going to rewrite Ynnari rules this year. Probably give it its own codex with a nerfed Soulburst?
I'm worried that when this happens they will get a bunch of stratagems which will make Soulburst even more powerful than it is now. Anyway, this is getting off topic, sorry...
depends on why you want to buy it. if you want one because they look dope and theyre flavorful, go ahead. if you want one because theyre strong and can win you lots of games, yeah maybe wait a bit (especially if its a castellan).
personally ive gotten a knight + 2 armigers only because they look dope, i barely ever use them in games because ive had more success in my meta with pure admech (were not LVO level even if some players would like to think so).
even if they nerf allied detachments, you can always argue that you have the datasheet for the normal knights in your codex, surely no TO would oppose you
@suuzuteo Love your list even with maniipulus. Though if you don't iisee both his chants he is less point efficient. Still that sweet +1 charger is extremely good.
I can tell you this. Since you playing a v v high risk reward list and we all know what and how easily prriest can fail and die. To invest in a second failsafe.
That said I'd take Agripiina dominus with realic and blob him with 6+ grrav destroyers. Swich yyour 4 lascanon balistarii.
Why a) more troops .
B) won't build 10 dragoons OMG
C) dsttroyeerrs with Agripiina will give you too of shots to overcome other thrreats as well but also can provide with reerolling 1 to wound and d3 damage effctivee shooting vs anything.
D) if you loose prriests you can invest cp on bringing back destroyers with Agripiina
I believe they are more suited and you LL get Moore sttable results than 4 balistarii .
If you face something you need to kill you got priests double play for mortals and dragoons . All else better of as Agripiina grav.
Yoda79 wrote: @suuzuteo Love your list even with maniipulus. Though if you don't iisee both his chants he is less point efficient. Still that sweet +1 charger is extremely good.
I can tell you this. Since you playing a v v high risk reward list and we all know what and how easily prriest can fail and die. To invest in a second failsafe.
That said I'd take Agripiina dominus with realic and blob him with 6+ grrav destroyers. Swich yyour 4 lascanon balistarii.
Why a) more troops .
B) won't build 10 dragoons OMG
C) dsttroyeerrs with Agripiina will give you too of shots to overcome other thrreats as well but also can provide with reerolling 1 to wound and d3 damage effctivee shooting vs anything.
D) if you loose prriests you can invest cp on bringing back destroyers with Agripiina
I believe they are more suited and you LL get Moore sttable results than 4 balistarii .
If you face something you need to kill you got priests double play for mortals and dragoons . All else better of as Agripiina grav.
Try it it's suits your list.
A) Agreed. I worry about my troop count. I could have huge disadvantages against hordes.
B) I already have 8 built. Another 2 is not too bad. T_T
C) I was actually thinking Agripinaa with the Ballistarii. 2+ to hit, reroll 1s to hit, reroll wounds is pretty amazing.
D) In my experience, they just kill the entire unit at once. But this can be a victory in and of itself because it draws fire from more valuable units. Very people have things for mid-toughness shooting.
Yoda79 wrote: @suuzuteo Love your list even with maniipulus. Though if you don't iisee both his chants he is less point efficient. Still that sweet +1 charger is extremely good.
I can tell you this. Since you playing a v v high risk reward list and we all know what and how easily prriest can fail and die. To invest in a second failsafe.
That said I'd take Agripiina dominus with realic and blob him with 6+ grrav destroyers. Swich yyour 4 lascanon balistarii.
Why a) more troops .
B) won't build 10 dragoons OMG
C) dsttroyeerrs with Agripiina will give you too of shots to overcome other thrreats as well but also can provide with reerolling 1 to wound and d3 damage effctivee shooting vs anything.
D) if you loose prriests you can invest cp on bringing back destroyers with Agripiina
I believe they are more suited and you LL get Moore sttable results than 4 balistarii .
If you face something you need to kill you got priests double play for mortals and dragoons . All else better of as Agripiina grav.
Try it it's suits your list.
A) Agreed. I worry about my troop count. I could have huge disadvantages against hordes.
B) I already have 8 built. Another 2 is not too bad. T_T
C) I was actually thinking Agripinaa with the Ballistarii. 2+ to hit, reroll 1s to hit, reroll wounds is pretty amazing.
D) In my experience, they just kill the entire unit at once. But this can be a victory in and of itself because it draws fire from more valuable units. Very people have things for mid-toughness shooting.
yeah, i run footslogging electropriest as stygies + manipulus and i run them in my opponent's face most games, most people know how dedaly they get if they kill something so my they usually spend their first turn shotting most of their guns at them. every time this happens, my dunecrawlers and ryzaphrons survive and manage to their bigger dakka units.
Honestly, once i realised that a big part of strategy was making sacrifices, my winrate skyrocketed.
Yeah. It's about overloading your opponent with threats.
Hm... what if I were to cut the Ballistarii, switch the Dominus back to Manipulus, and add 3 units of Rangers, another Drill, and a 10x unit of Graia Vanguard with Plasma Calivers?
Transport - 132 1x Termite Assault Drill - Stormbolter
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 1999 points 13 CP (-3)
I feel a bit naked without a vehicular firebase, but it is interesting to see how troop-heavy this army is.
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah. It's about overloading your opponent with threats.
Hm... what if I were to cut the Ballistarii, switch the Dominus back to Manipulus, and add 3 units of Rangers, another Drill, and a 10x unit of Graia Vanguard with Plasma Calivers?
Transport - 132 1x Termite Assault Drill - Stormbolter
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 1999 points 13 CP (-3)
I feel a bit naked without a vehicular firebase, but it is interesting to see how troop-heavy this army is.
What if you dropped a couple of vanguard and the Graia Drill for 5 infiltrators (to keep the deep strike capability) and a bunch of Transuranic arquebus? it would give you a bit more firepower without removiing too much of your striking force?
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah. It's about overloading your opponent with threats.
Hm... what if I were to cut the Ballistarii, switch the Dominus back to Manipulus, and add 3 units of Rangers, another Drill, and a 10x unit of Graia Vanguard with Plasma Calivers?
Transport - 132 1x Termite Assault Drill - Stormbolter
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 1999 points 13 CP (-3)
I feel a bit naked without a vehicular firebase, but it is interesting to see how troop-heavy this army is.
What if you dropped a couple of vanguard and the Graia Drill for 5 infiltrators (to keep the deep strike capability) and a bunch of Transuranic arquebus? it would give you a bit more firepower without removiing too much of your striking force?
I personally never leavy home without a few stygies dunecrawler, they are super tough to kill and are usually what cleans up a game.
depends on why you want to buy it. if you want one because they look dope and theyre flavorful, go ahead. if you want one because theyre strong and can win you lots of games, yeah maybe wait a bit (especially if its a castellan).
personally ive gotten a knight + 2 armigers only because they look dope, i barely ever use them in games because ive had more success in my meta with pure admech (were not LVO level even if some players would like to think so).
even if they nerf allied detachments, you can always argue that you have the datasheet for the normal knights in your codex, surely no TO would oppose you
Spoiler:
jk
I have a Castellan but I’ll be honest rarely use him. I have 2 questoris class knights that are magnetised. I was thinking of getting a third and taking a super heavy detachment with Admech/guard
Probably wouldn’t be for the looks at this point it would be for tournaments.
VladimirHerzog wrote: I personally never leavy home without a few stygies dunecrawler, they are super tough to kill and are usually what cleans up a game.
Sure. For me, it's usually a firebase of 3x Crawler or, now that they are cheaper, 4x Ballistarii. Icarus Crawlers are super well-rounded and don't need any CP investment. Ballistarii do need 1 CP per turn, but they are really good at killing vehicles.
lash92 wrote: Sure without Ryza they aren't nearly half as good.
Since I'm going mixed FW anyway I'm not really using much.
If you have the chance to take 6-9 Ryzaphrons go for it, it's hilarious. Wounding most vehicles on 2+ with flat 3 dmg. It's like a ranged smash captain with 6d6 attacks
I feel like 3 is also pretty small as far as squad size goes. It's not really worth to boost them with stratagems if you have such a small squad size. I wouldn't even bother taking the specialist detachment.
i personally run 6 plasma destroyers in a mixed detachment, in a servitor maniple.
Dominus (Ryza)
Enginseer (Lucius)
6 Destroyers (Ryza)
2x Vanguards (Graia)
4x Servitors (Ryza)
sometimes i'll add some Mars infiltrators so i can wrath of mars with them
its really strong, hide your kataphrons in a building during deployment, then walk them out and point and click delete vehicles.
The difference between Grav and Plasma is huge, sure grav gets you more shots on average, but they wound vehicles on 4-5 (so you want to shoot them at MEQ / TEQ) with plasma they wound anything with T7 and lower on a 2+ with ap -3 and 3 damage, its brutal.
How can you give them different Forgeworlds in just 1 detachment? Ive been out of the game for about a year, and seems like i missed quite a lot
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 1989 points 13 CP (-3)
This is pretty the Justin Lois AdMech melee list with no Guardsmen, an Assassin, and a different Knight.
Only worries are that it may run out of CP. Also, only one Fulgurite unit can fight twice at a time. I guess I could deep strike the Enginseer + 11 Fulgurites near the Dragoons on turn two. But if I am doing that, maybe I should make those Graia? Thoughts?
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 1989 points 13 CP (-3)
This is pretty the Justin Lois AdMech melee list with no Guardsmen, an Assassin, and a different Knight.
Only worries are that it may run out of CP. Also, only one Fulgurite unit can fight twice at a time. I guess I could deep strike the Enginseer + 11 Fulgurites near the Dragoons on turn two. But if I am doing that, maybe I should make those Graia? Thoughts?
I would swap the HQ's over between the battalions and move the electropriests & drills to Graia as well.
1. Move the Priests & Drills because assuming they are deep striking you do not need the -1 to hit as they will be really close to the enemny anyway and the Graia trait will make the preists really hard to kill with the 3++.
2. swap the HQ's over as the manipulus & the Mask enginseer can then still buff the Priests. the necromechanic can repair the knight no matter which Battalion he is in.
Right. I just wanted the flexibility. My thinking is maybe one Drill infiltrates turn one with the Dragoons, one Drill deep strikes turn two nearby. Manipulus with the infiltrators so that he can buff everyone on turn two simultaneously, Enginseer with the deep strikers. If I deep strike near the Dragoons, Mask provides the buff; if not, he repairs the Drill.
It's definitely a super all-in strategy, but I can't argue with the results; this Priest+Drills+Dragoons did well at LVO and a recent tourney.
Anyhow, I wonder if it is worthwhile to make the deep strikers Graia. Only downside is that I don't have the option to double infiltrate.
Transport - 132 1x Termite Assault Drill - Stormbolter
Elite - 176 11x Fulgurite Electro-Priest
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
That's a plans and I c beaten new chaos with something like that. But yeah it's brutal risky needs some good playing and measuring but it's brutal. Hf
Using strygies 12+ -1-2 to hit on dragoons is key . You need to keep you range perfect butt close so you keep your - 1 stygies till you move in 2 or 3rd round it's not all in. It requires smart play
And your troops to move and deny deep strike of enemy vs your knight especially buildings around your important units . You gotta play really smart this list but it shines when played measured correctly
What do you guys think how many troops do we need for 1000/1500/2000p games?
If we have frontliners(sicarians/dragoons/priests) we need less troops I guess.
I generally have 2 sniper teams for the corners, 1 ranger squad as last screening line and a lot of vanguards in the front
If you guys want to try more CC-orientated lists in pure AdMech I still strongly recommend to try out some Fistellans. I've been playing a unit of 4 almost every game lately and they've been great every single time. My main build is a unit of 4 + Datasmith in a Cohort Cybernetica, as Lucius, so I pay 2 CP for the Datasmith + Bots to teleport (alternatively you can Solar Flare the Datasmith but I keep my relic slot for the Autocaduceus), drop them T1, pop the +3" charge strat and charge them somewhere. Depending on the situation I'll pop Binharic Override after the charge move to make them fight twice so that they can consolidate twice and likely engage the maximum of stuff possible at once.
The opponent cannot ignore them and this unit have punched through a LOT of stuff. They're usually accompanied by my 3 Dragoons in CC, and in the meantime I have 6 Agripinaa Plasmaphrons in a Servitor Maniple (so 5++ and respawnable with the WL trait), 3 Onagers and 4 Arquebuses pounding the enemy at the same time.
Could work played as Stygies too, Infiltrate the Bots, the Dragoons and the Drills and your opponent is facing a lot of stuff at once T1.
The Bots are fairly tough to crack if they fail their charge too, it's 24W at T7 that have a 4++ against shooting. I have them with Incendine Combustors for auto-hit fun and they've been efficient with that, although they rarely shoot more than 1 turn as I lock them in double fight mode early on.
Yes still using snipers assassin's robots and 20+ kataprhons had a final vs death watch last weekend on a tourney lost but still second not bad . We replayed the game mid week and was draw so I got still a v v good feeling on the liist.
It's going well and I like it I saw some good options like the one with custodes bikes as third detachment or mixing the list ryza .
Tried some combos but so far I'm still on Mars all out . Still need some testing for variety but if I take ryza plasma I loose the Cawl star and the manipulus buff. And after all the list most likely wns because it has 48+ threat range not 36 and rreroolls everything in shooting and miss in melee if you loose that smewhat I see the purpose change . Sure I love ryza plasma but Mars Robots are always need for pesky enemies or even wrath of Mars plasma if you have to and no damage replace mortals .
My thinking when we try to figure out extreme competitive armies like top tournament armies then you need to consider what you play vs other options. That's how the guard battery started to dominate in lists . Infantry ordered cp battery mortars best in game utility points results.
Same goes for melee ad mech . Fiststellans are v good but as the protocols are now they got no invu in melee. Making them bad really bad vs most melee and for 300+ + datasmith why invest? Better of with a knight add some helverins good +3 cp and good results. He can fall back and charge shoot as well and do all you want with relics and warlordtraiits . There is no meaning . And this is the main reason I don't play a melee list like suuzuuteo which I like and use ein fluffy games .
Competitive the ability to have Cawl and wrath opf Mars can't be matched. And because priests don't have a good transport ( I don't play fw drills) and because they are still a risk you need to invest and have semi synergy with the list.
Same for onagers if you read the 2000 pages we talking you LL find me saying don't leave home with out 3 . Icarus probably one of the best efficient tank with current meta but nothing in our army can fall back shoot fly advance charge bla bla .
So why invest in a list I can get better in other armies . So decide what you like and build the list accordingly . You can't have robots onagers and 1 0 rangers and believe you gonna anything . A single troops will lock robots in place . A fearless blob will hold your expensive robots for ever ? If yo face real threats like a smash captain you dead .
And I can say examples all day try to make your lists best as possible . Can't have a gun line with nothing to protect it . That was our problem early on and continues . Balistarii onagers robts kataprhons all super shooters but amstaric easy to lock gun line . Can't use them all the same time .
Still I trust the onagers balistarii or kataphrons with big units on priests as counter to work fine? Lure your enemy with shooting 3 onagers 1 neutron 2 iicarus balistarii lasc or kattarhojs and hold your priests midish as possible use mobility to lure enemy counters to your priests . Can work till the time you LL face bigger mobile guns. Hf
Xp. I use 2*6 breachers you use 4 melee robots . You use datasmith I us dominus let's say we are same points .
I will have 3 save like you and 18+18 hp you have 24 hp total I just hermeticon and reroll all my hits for 3* att/ breacher d3 damage and it's even worse if I should you with d6 damage. And I'm troop will take the obj we fight upon etc etc . Why when 4 robots properly screened with wrath of Mars are feared Moore than primarchs .
To be clear, I am figuring out what list to use starting in May in the run up to Bay Area Open. Haha. I am probably going to lose very badly given how little prep time I have, but at least it will probably be fun.
My worries with Fistbots are two-fold:
1) As Yoda mentioned, they don't have invulnerable saves in melee. Meanwhile, Fulgurites are frighteningly hard to kill once they siphon something. 3++/5+++, 6++++ with Graia and 2++ with Acquisition stratagem!
2) They cannot pass through ruins. This has been supremely important in my assault game with Catachans. I can already imagine Dragoons and Drills having problems. Throwing Robots in is doubling down on one particular vulnerability.
But otherwise, I see them as a pretty good replacement for Dragoons in some situations, actually.
The sheer fact they dont have melee invuls and are still quite pricy for...moderate strength vs cost makes me wanna stay the hell away from fistbots.
Pretty much means they either have to bully something (bad unit to bully with we have other things for that) or hope to wipe it before it strikes back.
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Transport - 132 1x Termite Assault Drill - Stormbolter
Elite - 176 11x Fulgurite Electro-Priest
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 1989 points 13 CP (-3)
Leaning toward Balanced because I'm a wuss that likes some familiarity. Haha.
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Transport - 132 1x Termite Assault Drill - Stormbolter
Elite - 176 11x Fulgurite Electro-Priest
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 1989 points 13 CP (-3)
Leaning toward balanced because I'm a wuss that likes some familiarity. Haha.
One question, why take smoke launchers on the onagers, when your other option is data tethers, which allow you to hit regular infantry with the icarus for 1CP?
But yes I would lean towards the Balanced list as well.
The Forgemaster wrote: One question, why take smoke launchers on the onagers, when your other option is data tethers, which allow you to hit regular infantry with the icarus for 1CP?
But yes I would lean towards the Balanced list as well.
Because there are times when you have to move these Crawlers into range, and getting -2 to hit for that one turn is worthwhile. You can also use it on the last turn to deny victory points. I actually almost never find it worthwhile to get +2 to hit on just one Crawler anyway.
One variation on the Balanced that l was thinking about would be to cut one of the Crawlers for 3x5 Graia Rangers then swap the Dominus into a Manipulus. Because 90 points to buff 334 points of shooting is pushing things. Might be better to buff 700+ points of melee instead.
Genestealer Drill is about the same size as the thick pipe in a magmavent. Mechanicus Drill is a bit larger than the big cylinders in the sector mechanicus.
Sector mechanicus might be compatible enough for you to make a drill train though. Or stick a drill on the end of some Sector mechanicus for something like:
Though these aren't mine - from Feral80 on B&C. I've just gone with the Mantic ones.
Hmm thanks. Its a shame they’re not similar enough to just proxy. Though i’d been watching ferratonic reactors from sector mechanicus for a while, which is the bit those drills in your picture are made from. It’s still cheaper to buy an entire sector mechanicus and frag drill scenery set and smash em together than it is to buy a single drill though. Stupid FW pricing.
Sure Kastelans don't get invulnerable saves in CC for some reason but they're not meant to be charged, they're the ones who charge something, fight twice through it (may get interrupted if the target can fight T7) and then sits there in the middle of the field, you can't ignore it. Of course it'll die but so will your Kataphrons, Destroyers are the perfect target for Battle Cannons and Helverins and will chew through the whole unit like it's nothing. Fulgurites are durable only when they killed something and even then, they're squishier than Marines because T3. Lasguns worry them.
You speak of enemies hiding in buildings and that's a very good point, though I'll say Dragoons suffer the same problem. Depending on the terrain a smart opponent will just place his models on the edges of the floors so that your Fulgurites can't reach them, and if they can, they'll just kill the unit and consolidate nowhere, so will get shot/counter-charged. But yes they can go through walls and that's a great advantage I agree. I just hope GW will get their wits together so as to stop this "infantry goes trough walls" nonsense and start using modelled doors, windows or holes in the scenery, and allow big models to have much greater reach in CC.
I've used a single unit of 11 + a Prime Hermeticon Dominus in a proxied Drill in Stygies and they were fine most games. The drill itself is great in CC as it's tough and the drill weapon rules are awesome.
Yoda I've made the maths for your comparison with Breachers because I'm genuinely interested in this fight. However you've grossly overestimated their ability to fight vs T7, the regular 30 pts Breacher with Arc Claw is the one I've been using.
- 12 Breachers, reroll all hits, against 4 Bots in CC equals 4,5 wounds inflicted, so on average 9W lost. If you're fighting Lucius Bots as I play them they ignore the AP-1 and so we're down to 3 wounds inflicted resulting at 6W lost.
- 4 Fistelans, reroll hits of 1 (Canticle), against 12 Breachers equals 14,59 wounds inflicted in total. If I get to fight a second time with no interruption that's 29,18 wounds, so an average of almost 10 Breachers dead.
You can't do more than d3 damage in CC so I think you're confusing the Heavy Arc Rifle with the Claw. I didn't run the maths if you gave both Breachers a 5++ but they still lose pretty hard. They wound the Bots on 5s with the base Claw, have a meagre AP (for some reason) and deal d3 damage. Meanwhile the Bots wound on 2s, ignore almost all their armour saves and kill a Breacher with each failed save. I keep telling I'm scared of D3 weapons since I started playing my Destroyers.
Thing is the Breachers suck at breaching, they're good against anything below T7 but real vehicles are a huge problem when unsupported with the Eye of Xi-Lexum.
I'm not claiming they're better than a Cawlstar, their role is different and at any rate nothing prevents you playing both. In my opinion the Fistellans are certainly less boring to play but that's not relevant
What do you bring in support of them and how many is the sweet spot in your Lucius drop?
Tbh I tend to only really play them in friendly games as I haven’t found them that great - but I’m willing to admit I’m playing them wrong
I'll post the short version of the list I used these games, I'm planning some changes due to now having Assassins and wanting to play smaller units of infantry. The list is basically:
Agripinaa Battalion (Servitor Maniple) +4 CP:
- Dominus, Biosplicer (-1CP)
- Enginseer
- 8 Vanguards, 2 Arc Rifles
- 8 Vanguards, 2 Plasma
- 5 Vanguards
- 6 Plasmaphrons with Flamers
- 4 Servitors
- 4 Servitors
- Onager with Beamer and Stubber
- Onager with Laser and 2 Stubbers
- Onager with Icarus and Stubber
Starting with 7 CP after Specialist shenanigans, the 5++, the Datasmith + Bots in DS and such. I have some WYSIWYG choices in there so that explains some things you might find weird but I'm about to change the list anyway.
As for the sweet spot ? I've never tried anything else than 4 at 2000 pts, at 1000 pts I play 2 and at 1500 pts it's 2-4. I'm curious to add 2 other Fistelans but I fear they'll be even harder to manoeuver, 4 seems like a nice balance.
Random question: For the skull-and-cog symbol (AKA Cog Mechanicum, AKA Opus Machina), is black on the left side of the skull or the right? Furthermore, why is it reversed in Knight art? (I am about to paint it on my Knight, but I am not sure which side to go with.)
@Aaranis
Yeah, my worry is that most of my army is melee, but can't fight in ruins.
I play ITC rules, so they use the wobbly charge rule still.
So the question is, dragoons and fistellans fulfil the same basic role: killing things with a lot of wounds that either doesnt fight back well or can be killed in a single fight. Which do we go for?
They both have some significant pros and cons. I mean there’s nothing really stopping us taking both but you almost get almost 1.5 dragoons for the price of a single robot.
One is T6 the other T7 so anything fighting or shooting them is mostly wounding on the same, the difference being that at range that T7 means regular plasma and autocannons wound on a 4. Most other heavy weapons are wounding both on a 3 though.
Dragoons have a 6++ and are generally -2 to hit but their 4+ sv makes them more vulnerable to large amounts of dice. Robots before they switch protocol are 4++ at range and a 2+ regular sv. Feels like survivability is generally going to hinge on what you’re up against against but lascannons and overcharged plasma there’s very little in it.
Both have the same wounds, all things they have about the same attacks and both are generally wounding on a 2 or 3. Robots have better ap but those dragoons are almost hitting all of their attacks with a 2+ ws and robots hitting on 4s.
Seems pretty even. At least robots have a ranged weapon to shoot those hiding in buildings.
Octovol wrote: So the question is, dragoons and fistellans fulfil the same basic role: killing things with a lot of wounds that either doesnt fight back well or can be killed in a single fight. Which do we go for?
They both have some significant pros and cons. I mean there’s nothing really stopping us taking both but you almost get almost 1.5 dragoons for the price of a single robot.
One is T6 the other T7 so anything fighting or shooting them is mostly wounding on the same, the difference being that at range that T7 means regular plasma and autocannons wound on a 4. Most other heavy weapons are wounding both on a 3 though.
Dragoons have a 6++ and are generally -2 to hit but their 4+ sv makes them more vulnerable to large amounts of dice. Robots before they switch protocol are 4++ at range and a 2+ regular sv. Feels like survivability is generally going to hinge on what you’re up against against but lascannons and overcharged plasma there’s very little in it.
Both have the same wounds, all things they have about the same attacks and both are generally wounding on a 2 or 3. Robots have better ap but those dragoons are almost hitting all of their attacks with a 2+ ws and robots hitting on 4s.
Seems pretty even. At least robots have a ranged weapon to shoot those hiding in buildings.
I think they want to punch slightly different targets. With AP-1, S8 and D2 and tons of attacks the Dragoons are best used against light armour or things that have a good invulnerable save. I'm thinking they're excellent against anything Eldar like jetbikes, and awesome against any 2W models obviously. Meanwhile Robots punch fewer but harder, 3D, S10 and AP-3 means they want to go MC or tank hunting, or big tough units like Custodes Bikes, Kataphrons, Ogryns and such.
As for the resilience the -1/-2 is certainly a great protection most of the time, but anything that passes will wound hard and the 6++ isn't wonderful. If facing things that auto-hit (thinking Hemloks) or can move quickly they're toast. Robots have at least the 4++ for a while against shooting but never more than a -1 to Hit. That 4++ saved me a few bots but so did the -2 to Hit, it depends on the situation as you said.
In my experience, the combination of Dragoons and Icarus Crawlers is very hard for armies like Tau to deal with. Dragoons apply a lot of assault pressure, and Icarus kill infantry (which screen Dragoon charges) and flyers (which can get out of reach of Dragoons).
The math on Dragoons shows they just wreck multiwound targets in general. The fact that they have the volume to ignore invulnerable saves is also helpful. I think they definitely hit harder than Robots against most targets, but this is owing to the fact that they only cost 68 points apiece.
In my mind, the big difference is in mobility. Dragoons infiltrate and have much better movement, so they can alpha strike and then can keep threatening the opponent's backline until they are dealt with. Downside is that on a long deployment, they can get chewed up really bad by Lootas or Dark Reapers; going to just have to use a Callidus to make that first turn hurt less. Robots deep strike and are more one-shot.
I've found my Dragoons to be perfectly useless against T'au oddly, they just get obliterated in overwatch most of the time, but that may be just me.
Kastelans can Infiltrate too, they just have 2" less, but for 2 CP they can have a +3" charge move so I think that evens out. The reason I'm playing them as Lucius most of the time is because I rarely get first turn and with the DS at least they can't be shot.
Both Dragoons and Fistelans are great I believe, which is why I use them both
Dragoons really get owned by the T'au Yvahra.
I feel like the Dragoons biggest strength is also it's weapon profile. It can really threaten anything due to a combination of high S, ap - 1, D2 and sheer volume of attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another point: There are some rumors of Knights getting capped at 4++ via next FAQ. Would you still consider running them if it gets true?
Aaranis wrote: I've found my Dragoons to be perfectly useless against T'au oddly, they just get obliterated in overwatch most of the time, but that may be just me.
Kastelans can Infiltrate too, they just have 2" less, but for 2 CP they can have a +3" charge move so I think that evens out. The reason I'm playing them as Lucius most of the time is because I rarely get first turn and with the DS at least they can't be shot.
Both Dragoons and Fistelans are great I believe, which is why I use them both
Tau struggle to hit anything with -2 to hit past the first turn. So just play defensively against Tau. Grab objectives, use the range advantage to force them to come out of their death bubble.
Sure. But Robots have so many more advantages deep striking, whereas Dragoons have advantages manoeuvring into melee. Assuming they don't have fixed hit rolls or something.
lash92 wrote: Dragoons really get owned by the T'au Yvahra.
I feel like the Dragoons biggest strength is also it's weapon profile. It can really threaten anything due to a combination of high S, ap - 1, D2 and sheer volume of attacks.
I have never seen a Yvahra on the tabletop, so I wouldn't know. But generally speaking, a single (overpriced) battlesuit that essentially has +1 to hit (because the gun has 8" range unless they're Borked, which is <12" ) and almost zero drone protection is not the worst thing in the world for us.
Ideasweasel wrote: It weakens solo knights but doesn’t hinder knight armies. I’m not happy if it’s the case but it’s probably a fair compromise.
I have heard similar rumors. But in either case, the Krast Styrix I am using will probably come out on top because of the built-in 4++. I still think it's the best solo Knight for AdMech.
Ideasweasel wrote: It weakens solo knights but doesn’t hinder knight armies. I’m not happy if it’s the case but it’s probably a fair compromise.
I have heard similar rumors. But in either case, the Krast Styrix I am using will probably come out on top because of the built-in 4++. I still think it's the best solo Knight for AdMech.
Indeed, thats just 1 less CP a turn I need to spend that i can spend on dragoons or balistarii or elimination volley
I’m always late to the party. After staying an arms length from soup I finally caved in a couple of months ago......just as all of you competitive chaps move back to mono Admech.
That aside, my recent exploits with soup has taught me a Wyvern is a truly beautiful thing (if you throw 7CP at it.
Deleting Ynnari dark reapers brings a smile to this old tech priests face.
Anyone having much luck with stygies drills of late?
Yeah. Reroll 1s to shoot and fight WLT and the relic that adds 1 damage to weapons for 10W targets and another 1 damage for Titan keyword targets. Makes that 45" Volkite gun and Feet ridiculously deadly against other Knights.
500 points for 4 Robots and a Datasmith + cp so you do what? Deep strike and run all game?
No 12 breachers cost 360 points and they screen. meaning im gonna overwatch you shoot you and again over watch you before you kill them + (best case or shoot you more most likely). While your 360 rest point shoot me and my 500 rest point gun line shoot you. Any day any time. A simple BA battalion 2 captains and 3x5 scouts deny your deep strike and even if you dropp you die. we talking about effective competitive here not playing with my friends.
I said Breachers fullfill a Role cheap screen that will also shoot D6 damage to your expensive RObot knight vehcle etc. While most like it will hold you one round melee. The rest are apples and oranges as said many times in here.
Same goes for dragoons I see you all talking about how they charge bla bla. I NEVER Never use Dragoons to charge. Their ROLE IS prior to Screen away 12" from enemy so they get the -2 to get hit till your gunline take the proper targets Down.
Ad mech is a v v good gun line with many options and some tactics. It will never become An assault army in it current state.
Priests are the best counter unit int he game.The best but not asaault. when we had infiltrate they nerfed it. YOu dont have a tranport for that exact reason you dont have synergy for melee lists. you got options TO play vs those armies .
Play the plan or change armies or soup.
And dont get me wrong this is only me thinking outloud how to make a list for tommorrows game not what you gonna play.
I dont wanna see hate posts. Play what you like wanna play solo ad mech with Fistellans go for it. but most likely you ll be facing Friendly knight list cause i dont beleive anyone will play funny 4-6 Robots.
Wanna test it go for it. Manipulus Datasmith and 2*4 Fistellans with flamers. TRy placing objectives 3 in middle. Camp your Robot Stars And change protocols with Datasmiths each round. USE the flamers and thats a plan. get priests to counter any high invu target and fast attack for chasing anything else. There you go. Funny game.
What's you guys' opinion on the Secutarii? The models are dope and i feel like they can do some decent work. I've seen people say that hoplites in drills are quite good but what about peltasts?
I know they dont get access to the Dogmas but adding more specialised skitarii could make for a pretty cool infantry-heavy army.
@Yoda79
Maybe it's just me, but I still don't understand Breachers. They are cheap for their statline (which people don't really prep for) and they are a good unit to glue your AdMech list together, but they are also slow and not too great at shooting or fighting. But not bad at shooting or shooting either. Just very average in the damage output department.
I think Dragoons do their job best when they are forcing the enemy to shoot at them. Sometimes, that means moving up the board to be aggressive. Other times, it is to screen and intercept transports. Same applies for Electro-Priests. I would not deploy them as a counter-charging unit though--not without ruins to hide in or something. They really want to get a unit kill on the charge ASAP to become nearly unkillable.
I have 2 warglaives, a gallant and 4 dragoons in my list, but their job is to force fire on themselves. There are enough wounds to soak up damage for a few turns and still deal some damage, suicide bomber stuff work well for me too, detonation of a Knight close to the enemies can wreck their plan, if they're not castling because of it I've reduced their aura effectively.
My damage is done by my guns but they never get touched as the stuff in the face of the opponent is too scary and by the time they've dealt with it they have v little left to deal with my guns.
I've had a lot of success with this, Inc Vs a Knight army (all he had left by T5 was a castalan on 8w).
I play aggressive and when I try to not play aggressive it end up doing it anyway, I've built my list for how I play and personally, I find building the list for how you play is much better than trying to build a mathematically better list.
Not really sure on the point of this post, figured I'd post anyway.
laam999 wrote: I have 2 warglaives, a gallant and 4 dragoons in my list, but their job is to force fire on themselves. There are enough wounds to soak up damage for a few turns and still deal some damage, suicide bomber stuff work well for me too, detonation of a Knight close to the enemies can wreck their plan, if they're not castling because of it I've reduced their aura effectively.
My damage is done by my guns but they never get touched as the stuff in the face of the opponent is too scary and by the time they've dealt with it they have v little left to deal with my guns.
I've had a lot of success with this, Inc Vs a Knight army (all he had left by T5 was a castalan on 8w).
I play aggressive and when I try to not play aggressive it end up doing it anyway, I've built my list for how I play and personally, I find building the list for how you play is much better than trying to build a mathematically better list.
Not really sure on the point of this post, figured I'd post anyway.
I'd like to try a list with a Gallant, two Helverins, my usual 4 FistBots and 3 Dragoons in my next game. I'm thinking the same as you, going in the face of the opponent T1 while my big guns are still shooting from the back looks to be a decent strategy in my meta given the terrain so I'm wondering how it'll do.
laam999 wrote: I have 2 warglaives, a gallant and 4 dragoons in my list, but their job is to force fire on themselves. There are enough wounds to soak up damage for a few turns and still deal some damage, suicide bomber stuff work well for me too, detonation of a Knight close to the enemies can wreck their plan, if they're not castling because of it I've reduced their aura effectively.
My damage is done by my guns but they never get touched as the stuff in the face of the opponent is too scary and by the time they've dealt with it they have v little left to deal with my guns.
I've had a lot of success with this, Inc Vs a Knight army (all he had left by T5 was a castalan on 8w).
I play aggressive and when I try to not play aggressive it end up doing it anyway, I've built my list for how I play and personally, I find building the list for how you play is much better than trying to build a mathematically better list.
Not really sure on the point of this post, figured I'd post anyway.
Exactly . Playing your style is the key point . Adding on that is forming a plan and a knight and two warglaives +3cp is a plan and a good on I extensively use .
While adding a great unit like 4 dragoons make it above average . So you got a v v good plan you pay it and yo improve .
In this forums we enforced this by comparing juniits plans effectiiveneess etc. Adding 4 dragoons and not 6 is opptimal etc. Even so when you play my advice would be since there are agreesivr armies your dragoons need too screen till enemy use his deep strike . And because dragoons are not so expensive and their resilience rrely on -2 to get hit range is a good option. All I say is I totally agree with your post cnept etc.
A) what is the rest of your gun line
B) the whole discussion about breachers began when we try to formulate a plan with out allies.
Sure knights form a good list but solo ad mech is the ....
Funny thing is that my gunline these days consists of 3x Icarus Crawlers and a Knight Styrix. I plan for them to support the assault rather than to be the primary threat themselves. (Seems to work for Justin Lois and such.) I also have 6x5 Rangers, but they are there to just hold objectives. Definitely much worse than Catachans or Cadians though.
Suzuteo wrote: Funny thing is that my gunline these days consists of 3x Icarus Crawlers and a Knight Styrix. I plan for them to support the assault rather than to be the primary threat themselves. (Seems to work for Justin Lois and such.) I also have 6x5 Rangers, but they are there to just hold objectives. Definitely much worse than Catachans or Cadians though.
yeah triple crawler (i run 2 icarus, 1 neutron) are a super good core for the gunline, all my lists begin with them. I personally stay mono-admech since i'm not in a 100% meta and i know many players here dislike knights. i substitute the knight with Ryzaphrons. then i've got footslogging electropriests with manipulus. i hit them on 3 axis that all need to be answered, no matter which one they get rid of i can usually grind it out.
@Suzuteo If you Run either Stygies Rangers or Grai there should be a good usage on them.
I found it was nice to use our army str. And use the snipers on my rangers. So 2*5 snipers with Cawl are no joke.
Same goes for Rangers with Stygies if they camp obj. and i might add same goes for assaulting Vanguard Graia pushing forth a deny bubble while having a nice assaulting weapon. Advancing Vanguards are no joke when they most likely have always Shroud. They die but most likely will use more shooting than the enemy wants to waste on troops.
Since you are using icarus Crawlers 2*5 stygies snipers and 2*7 grai Vanguards can help your icarus shooting focus off enemy troops.
As for the Mars Spamm kataphrons i use.
There was a need to start creating single codex Lists to assist our Team on picking Army lists.
I'm actually atm also debating whether I should go from 9 to 12 Destroyers.
There was an interesting mono admech list taking 3rd place at the Warzone Gigabytes GT two weeks ago, which incorporated a unit of 12 plus a big blob of dragoons and 4 kastelan robots.
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [36 PL, 573pts]
i already have 4 warglaives i got from someone for cheap and intend to get helverins and a knight at some point.
With that in mind, there even a point in getting robots in my case? i thought about shifting from mostly infantry with Knight dex stuff for vehicles and a crawler or two to mostly vehicles but felt like since i was delving into knights the robots was a waste of money.
Or am i missing something that justifies robots over helverines/warglaives?
Vineheart01 wrote: i already have 4 warglaives i got from someone for cheap and intend to get helverins and a knight at some point.
With that in mind, there even a point in getting robots in my case? i thought about shifting from mostly infantry with Knight dex stuff for vehicles and a crawler or two to mostly vehicles but felt like since i was delving into knights the robots was a waste of money.
Or am i missing something that justifies robots over helverines/warglaives?
They can shred light infantry with phosphor very cheap for the points - 18 x S6 -2AP shots per model per turn for 110pts each.
the one disadvantage of knights is that you generally are unable to kill swarms (or the chaff screens most armies have) - kastellans will do that for you - particulary brutal vs GEQ as they wound on 2+ with no saves.
alternatively go swarms yourself with many vanguard models 10 will shoot 30 S3 shots per turn for 80points - weaker and less range but higher rate of fire for their cost.
Anyone seen the Ynnari leaks? It’s obviously an incomplete picture but do you think we’ll see more craftworld/alaitoc and as such have to worry more about - to hit?
I have a casual game against Nids coming up - and I plan on using the following list, what do people think?
Plan is to castle up with the Ryzaphrons, Bots & onagers, use the Electropriests & Breachers as counter attack, Vanguard as Chaff/Objective capture, Ambull (I know not super competative but I just bought the model and wanted to see what it was like) to pop up on the backfield to go after biovores, Hive Guard etc. and Dragoons to push forward as objective capture & counter attack etc. Assassin chosen depending on opponant list.
Kastelan Robots [12 PL, 220pts] . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 119pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber . Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser
Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 119pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber . Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone seen the Ynnari leaks? It’s obviously an incomplete picture but do you think we’ll see more craftworld/alaitoc and as such have to worry more about - to hit?
Yeah I've seen those, it will really depend on the stratagems I think. But yeah Alaitoc is the best choice for Craftworld, but we have good ways to circumvent minuses to hit. I might even include some Ryza Kataphrons so my Destroyers can get a +2.
On a related note: No double shooting Reapers buffs our dragoons hugely!
You need to consider the restriction - demands / efforrd I make deciding the list I play.
I need to play a solo ad mech performing vs specific targets. It's. Team list and I'm sure it can be improved for solo games.
I play 3 battalions Mars atm. I v tested Rryza and two battalions and decided .
A) two battalions no Cawl but 12 ryza destroyers maybe no robots and breachers or no breachers but styygies detachment. Somewhere there .
B) Mars WTH Cawl and all three battalions breachers etc infiltrators for wrath of Mars.
So the one can be more flexible and gives an option to play maybe stygies graia agriinna and rryza combinations most likely plasma ryza with lower cp needs / turn.
Or Mars that can overcome -2 to hit o high invu armies. So I don't say it's a decision but both so far worked .
I d say three battalions Mars is one step more cometiitive as it makes enemies v v had to decide what to hit and you still got another big threat while Ryza spam can be extremely leathal and cheper to field though I beliieve somewhat more limited in my eyes . Both v v good still . I have not concluded I want and wait the big faqatm.
Yoda79 wrote: I m not gonna compare fistellans for no reason.
500 points for 4 Robots and a Datasmith + cp so you do what? Deep strike and run all game?
No 12 breachers cost 360 points and they screen. meaning im gonna overwatch you shoot you and again over watch you before you kill them + (best case or shoot you more most likely). While your 360 rest point shoot me and my 500 rest point gun line shoot you. Any day any time. A simple BA battalion 2 captains and 3x5 scouts deny your deep strike and even if you dropp you die. we talking about effective competitive here not playing with my friends.
I said Breachers fullfill a Role cheap screen that will also shoot D6 damage to your expensive RObot knight vehcle etc. While most like it will hold you one round melee. The rest are apples and oranges as said many times in here.
Same goes for dragoons I see you all talking about how they charge bla bla. I NEVER Never use Dragoons to charge. Their ROLE IS prior to Screen away 12" from enemy so they get the -2 to get hit till your gunline take the proper targets Down.
Ad mech is a v v good gun line with many options and some tactics. It will never become An assault army in it current state.
Priests are the best counter unit int he game.The best but not asaault. when we had infiltrate they nerfed it. YOu dont have a tranport for that exact reason you dont have synergy for melee lists. you got options TO play vs those armies .
Play the plan or change armies or soup.
And dont get me wrong this is only me thinking outloud how to make a list for tommorrows game not what you gonna play.
I dont wanna see hate posts. Play what you like wanna play solo ad mech with Fistellans go for it. but most likely you ll be facing Friendly knight list cause i dont beleive anyone will play funny 4-6 Robots.
Wanna test it go for it. Manipulus Datasmith and 2*4 Fistellans with flamers. TRy placing objectives 3 in middle. Camp your Robot Stars And change protocols with Datasmiths each round. USE the flamers and thats a plan. get priests to counter any high invu target and fast attack for chasing anything else. There you go. Funny game.
Hey don't worry there's no hate in my posts and I consider everything you say, you are right on many points, I'm just questioning the efficiency and asking if anyone ever tried these. I think we all play in very different metas and terrain settings for a start. My LGS has only Sector Mechanicus terrain so there's no LOS blocking terrain (although soon we'll have a city terrain with lots of LOS blocking terrain), and my meta is comprised mostly of me as AdMech, Craftworlds, Guard, Knights, T'au and Chaos. Different answers to different threats all in all.
I like your 2*4 Flamer-Fistelans idea to be honest, I just lack the models and really need to start building my own Manipulus but it looks fun as you said. I love playing fun lists, which is why I did play the 5-6 Cawlstar a few times but found it incredibly boring to play and switched to other lists that are lethal in their own way.
Speaking of which, I've finally settled on a 2000 pts list to try this Gallant and Armigers idea. I've settled for Mars instead of Graia/Stygies so as to play 3x Icarus with Cawl to counter the -1 to hit on non-fly units. Here's the list:
VladimirHerzog wrote: yeah triple crawler (i run 2 icarus, 1 neutron) are a super good core for the gunline, all my lists begin with them. I personally stay mono-admech since i'm not in a 100% meta and i know many players here dislike knights. i substitute the knight with Ryzaphrons. then i've got footslogging electropriests with manipulus. i hit them on 3 axis that all need to be answered, no matter which one they get rid of i can usually grind it out.
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Operative Requisition Sanctioned - 85 (-1 CP)
Total: 2000 points 13 CP (-3)
I am considering:
A) HQ swap to improve Fulgurite and Dragoon movement
-1 Dominus
+1 Manipulus; move the Mask to him
I do think rerolling ones is helpful on what is often 2+ or 3+ shooting.
B) Diversifying Crawler shooting
-1 Icarus Crawler
+1 Neutron Crawler
But since I have the Styrix, I am thinking the Icarus Crawlers might be more useful.
Hi.
Im gonna play tournament in around one month. While this is usually no problem, this time it will be ETC style tournament, and i have much less, basically zero, experience with. I heard that ETC is Significantly more focused on objective holding than ITC, which is more about killing stuff.
Do any of you have more experience? How does Admech perform in this environment?
For anyone that doesn't know ETC style means:
You can play only one faction.
missions are scored by mix of eternal war(primary) and maelstrom(secondary, you remove 6 cards form deck before game) plus difference in kill points.
6 configurations of tables: 2 with small density of terrain, 4 in middle ground and 2 with very dense LOS blocking terrain.
limited FW This is also paired tournament, with 750 pts per partner, no LoW.
@Spera I have a similar 2v2 coming up and would be interested in what your leaning toward.
I was actually a bit stumped with what to take at such a low level game for admech. Other factions seem to be a lot stronger at lower levels
It's not low level game because its 2x750, 1500 being not the most balanced, but still reliable. My partner will cover melee,close range fire an psychic, while i provide assassins and backline fire giving us flexibility.
Now I'm thinking about grav destroyers, as they would be god counter to deatchwatch, one of more problematic opponents. I think we can do pretty good on lower point levels, especially tanks to destroyers. Normally to put this caliber you ned to take elite or hey support slot. We can get it by filing battalion.
I’m used to 2k and even at that I struggle to fit all the shiny toys in but I know what you mean. The tournament im doing is a similar format 750+750 vs 750+750
I did think Cawl and 4 bots could be funny but it’s a bit static and useless if the board is terrain heavy
Ideasweasel wrote: I’m used to 2k and even at that I struggle to fit all the shiny toys in but I know what you mean. The tournament im doing is a similar format 750+750 vs 750+750
I did think Cawl and 4 bots could be funny but it’s a bit static and useless if the board is terrain heavy
That combo isn't viable, just because you are probably losing on Cawls aura. He needs to support more points. Also robots while bringing pain, are eggs in one basket. You also won't have much cp and rely for your partner to screen and capture objectives for you. Can be done, especially if your partner have access to good screen, but I think Cawll with not at least 700 points of shooting is a waste.
Maybe Ryza/Aggripina Battalion with 6x Kataphrons Destroyers (Would probably consider plasma due to the better vehicle killing units, or Agrippina Grav with eye of lexum relic...) , Dominus, enginseer, 2x 5 Vanguard/Rangers and a Couple of Dragoons this is approx 620pts, then fill out with some additional units e.g. servitors to bring back kataphrons etc. or a Onager, more Vanguard, Breachers??? you could even add in an assassin?
6x Destroyers, 3x Haywire Breachers, 3x Haywire Breachers, Dominus, Enginseer = approx 600pts that is 12 bodies at T5 and 3 Wounds each - not going anywhere quickly...
you end up with a fairly mobile firebase that can be brought back if killed, some screen/chaff, dragoons to push forward (possibly in support of your ally??), Haywire Breachers could be quite good due to being quite tanky and the D6 damage vs light vehicles - which there will be more of at such a low points... basically this is a fairly well rounded army? probably the best we would get at 750pts?
Yoda79 wrote: I m not gonna compare fistellans for no reason.
500 points for 4 Robots and a Datasmith + cp so you do what? Deep strike and run all game?
No 12 breachers cost 360 points and they screen. meaning im gonna overwatch you shoot you and again over watch you before you kill them + (best case or shoot you more most likely). While your 360 rest point shoot me and my 500 rest point gun line shoot you. Any day any time. A simple BA battalion 2 captains and 3x5 scouts deny your deep strike and even if you dropp you die. we talking about effective competitive here not playing with my friends.
I said Breachers fullfill a Role cheap screen that will also shoot D6 damage to your expensive RObot knight vehcle etc. While most like it will hold you one round melee. The rest are apples and oranges as said many times in here.
Same goes for dragoons I see you all talking about how they charge bla bla. I NEVER Never use Dragoons to charge. Their ROLE IS prior to Screen away 12" from enemy so they get the -2 to get hit till your gunline take the proper targets Down.
Ad mech is a v v good gun line with many options and some tactics. It will never become An assault army in it current state.
Priests are the best counter unit int he game.The best but not asaault. when we had infiltrate they nerfed it. YOu dont have a tranport for that exact reason you dont have synergy for melee lists. you got options TO play vs those armies .
Play the plan or change armies or soup.
And dont get me wrong this is only me thinking outloud how to make a list for tommorrows game not what you gonna play.
I dont wanna see hate posts. Play what you like wanna play solo ad mech with Fistellans go for it. but most likely you ll be facing Friendly knight list cause i dont beleive anyone will play funny 4-6 Robots.
Wanna test it go for it. Manipulus Datasmith and 2*4 Fistellans with flamers. TRy placing objectives 3 in middle. Camp your Robot Stars And change protocols with Datasmiths each round. USE the flamers and thats a plan. get priests to counter any high invu target and fast attack for chasing anything else. There you go. Funny game.
Hey don't worry there's no hate in my posts and I consider everything you say, you are right on many points, I'm just questioning the efficiency and asking if anyone ever tried these. I think we all play in very different metas and terrain settings for a start. My LGS has only Sector Mechanicus terrain so there's no LOS blocking terrain (although soon we'll have a city terrain with lots of LOS blocking terrain), and my meta is comprised mostly of me as AdMech, Craftworlds, Guard, Knights, T'au and Chaos. Different answers to different threats all in all.
I like your 2*4 Flamer-Fistelans idea to be honest, I just lack the models and really need to start building my own Manipulus but it looks fun as you said. I love playing fun lists, which is why I did play the 5-6 Cawlstar a few times but found it incredibly boring to play and switched to other lists that are lethal in their own way.
Speaking of which, I've finally settled on a 2000 pts list to try this Gallant and Armigers idea. I've settled for Mars instead of Graia/Stygies so as to play 3x Icarus with Cawl to counter the -1 to hit on non-fly units. Here's the list:
I'd prefer the classic 3 Gallant plan I don't trust warglaives at all. 3 knights also full relics and warlord traits are a force . If you heading that road better of with 3 .+6 cp and they will help each other most likely one will make it to enemy lines Icarus can clear chaff though Robots are better if you play Mars consider two also buffing destroyers with elimination if need! I would not add more onagers with knights . And that's my 50$
Whats a good way to build a smaller Graia force? Im looking to ally them for my Custodians/ Knights. Im assuming the vanguard shooting into melee is pretty darn nice when It happens but its hard to pull off?
THUNDERHAMMER wrote: Whats a good way to build a smaller Graia force? Im looking to ally them for my Custodians/ Knights. Im assuming the vanguard shooting into melee is pretty darn nice when It happens but its hard to pull off?
How many points are we talking about here?
A good starting point is usual a minimal batallion of two Enginseers and 3x5 Skitarii for 5CP, some boardcontrol and psychic defense via their stratagem.
THUNDERHAMMER wrote: Whats a good way to build a smaller Graia force? Im looking to ally them for my Custodians/ Knights. Im assuming the vanguard shooting into melee is pretty darn nice when It happens but its hard to pull off?
It isn't, its more of charge deterrent than actual tactic. Small force will be mass infantry, maybe two battalions, rangers and vanguards and corpuscari and fulgurites.. Its one of instances where Manipulus is actually viable.
With the new FAQ being out i noticed this part in the Admech's codex :
Spoiler:
Q: If a Questor Mechanicus unit from your army is
selected as the target of the Knight of the Cog Stratagem, must
every unit in that Questor Mechanicus unit’s Detachment
also have the Canticles of the Omnissiah ability in order for that
Questor Mechanicus unit to benefit from it?
A: No.
This means that we can give canticles to one of our knights now, even in a full detachment.
Also, rage of the machine truly only affects one model in a unit.
And finally, the sad part :
Spoiler:
Q: Can a Graia model that has the Refusal to Yield ability
also make use of rules that allow them to ignore lost wounds,
such as Fanatical Devotion?
A: No.
But for 704 points. Why not just take a Porphyrion?
These changes look good for Admech though. Unless you like disembarking Graia electropriests from an exploding termite drill
Agreed, with the general nerf to Imperial soup as it stands (castellan) and a nerf to all flavors orAeldari soup (Ynnari or just abusing Doom) maybe its time for admech to shine competetively.
GW reverting the way Graia works with FnP is sad tho, they did say that they stacked in a previous faq.
Still, pure admech or admech + knight + 2x armiger might actually be a real contender.
We can now get a full superheavy detachment and still be able to give canticles to our big knight (cover/reroll 1's for crusader, reroll 1's in fight for gallant, anyone?)
And I’d type one thing that I’m surprised escaped a nerf.....but it im starting to suspect they actively scan forums so message me if you want to know the answer lol
- DS them as usual, and so disembark at 9" from any enemies;
- Start on the board, that way you can move for one turn, disembark the next, still have your movement and charge with the Drill to soak Overwatch;
- Infiltrate the Drill with Stygies, try to have first turn, start 9" from the enemy and disembark on your turn, for a less than 3" charge
Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power) outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g. abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’). For the purposes of this FAQ, Overwatch attacks are also considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase.
0XFallen wrote: Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power) outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g. abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’). For the purposes of this FAQ, Overwatch attacks are also considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase.
Was about to post this, kinda good for shooty kastellans with cawl.
Page 138 – The Dagger of Tu’Sakh
Add the following sentence at the start of the rules text:
‘Infantry Officer model only.’
Change the first sentence to read:
‘During deployment, you can set up the bearer and
one Astra Militarum Infantry unit from your
army behind enemy lines instead of placing them on
the battlefield.
rollawaythestone wrote: The clarification to "as if it were the shooting phase" means that you get lots of re-rolls in overwatch. Give Cawl a nice bonus.
Rex2490 wrote: Page 138 – The Dagger of Tu’Sakh
Add the following sentence at the start of the rules text:
‘Infantry Officer model only.’
Change the first sentence to read:
‘During deployment, you can set up the bearer and
one Astra Militarum Infantry unit from your
army behind enemy lines instead of placing them on
the battlefield.
Re-rolls for Overwatch is great for sure, did not expect that at all. Time to get back to having to try to screen out Fly models in the charge phase again though. Very difficult against things like jump pack characters and infantry that are able to fight twice.
xlDuke wrote: Re-rolls for Overwatch is great for sure, did not expect that at all. Time to get back to having to try to screen out Fly models in the charge phase again though. Very difficult against things like jump pack characters and infantry that are able to fight twice.
As awesome as this is , its mostly flavor text since your heavy hitters should rarely get charged if you screen properly. Rerolling my vanguards/rangers in overwatch isnt exactly OP
Its a free buff, if its worth it or not isnt the point. Sure, Breachers hit harder and wound easier than skitariis so i gues that yes, its better with them, however the rate of fire is lower than vanguards.
Its not a buff that i'd build a list around, its more like something to keep in mind when it comes up.
Orks are the only ones i can think of that would intentionally use that change...since pretty much all of my units that arent pure melee have a pretty high rate of fire.
Everyone else would rather avoid being charged period. Robots in turret mode have a high rate of fire but are also rather pricy and probably dead if they get charged.
Its a free buff, if its worth it or not isnt the point. Sure, Breachers hit harder and wound easier than skitariis so i gues that yes, its better with them, however the rate of fire is lower than vanguards.
Its not a buff that i'd build a list around, its more like something to keep in mind when it comes up.
My first thought was that Kastelans are now useless again with flyers charging straight through, but with cawl rerolls it could hurt a lot.
Its a free buff, if its worth it or not isnt the point. Sure, Breachers hit harder and wound easier than skitariis so i gues that yes, its better with them, however the rate of fire is lower than vanguards.
Its not a buff that i'd build a list around, its more like something to keep in mind when it comes up.
Yeah I’m toying with breachers. Although my preferred playstyle tends to be stygies and a mobile force at that.
I have yet to try out breachers and see how they tick
Rex2490 wrote: Page 138 – The Dagger of Tu’Sakh
Add the following sentence at the start of the rules text:
‘Infantry Officer model only.’
Change the first sentence to read:
‘During deployment, you can set up the bearer and
one Astra Militarum Infantry unit from your
army behind enemy lines instead of placing them on
the battlefield.
There goes that, too.
*Tim the Enchanter shouting "I warned you!" faintly in the distance*
Yeah there was no way that one was gonna stick around.
In the other news maybe the Castellan being nerfed will mean we'll see more variety in armor and units now. It's still stupid powerful though. I mean if you think about it you lose one more robot to afford it. Yeah it sucks but it's not like the Castellan is useless, just not quite as busted. Probably will just see other knights pick up the slack for it but at least now we know we're not going to have to chew through a 3+ invuln knight in most games.
Was worried about charging flyers for a moment, then saw the As If ruling and the Overwatch changes.
So on the down side, you can no longer use stratagems during "as if" phases. Hurts a lot of other factions much more than us, I guess, but it does make our Destroyers less ridiculous. On the other hand, rerolls during Overwatch and Autocaduceus are an insane buff for shooting and a nerf to melee.
Thank goodness for the Aircraft changes too. They were blocking all sorts of things with those.
Rex2490 wrote: Page 138 – The Dagger of Tu’Sakh
Add the following sentence at the start of the rules text: ‘Infantry Officer model only.’ Change the first sentence to read: ‘During deployment, you can set up the bearer and one Astra Militarum Infantry unit from your army behind enemy lines instead of placing them on the battlefield.
- DS them as usual, and so disembark at 9" from any enemies;
- Start on the board, that way you can move for one turn, disembark the next, still have your movement and charge with the Drill to soak Overwatch;
- Infiltrate the Drill with Stygies, try to have first turn, start 9" from the enemy and disembark on your turn, for a less than 3" charge
Stygies one is dead now though.
Why is the Stygies one dead? Didn't the only change to disembarking occur with DESTROYED transports?
So we sadly can´t outflank Kataphrons anymore (which was expected to get fixed to be fair).
What does this mean for us if we wanna field them still? A big unit of 12 in case we get alpha struck? 2 units of 6?
lash92 wrote: So we sadly can´t outflank Kataphrons anymore (which was expected to get fixed to be fair).
What does this mean for us if we wanna field them still? A big unit of 12 in case we get alpha struck? 2 units of 6?
Hide them behind a building/ ITC ruin and move out turn 1 and fire.
1x12 / 2x6 - depends on buffs, if running ryzaphrons and you need the damage from the strat, probably go 12 otherwise might be better for 2x6 for two reasons:
1. Aggripina bring back strat.
2. Prevent 1 small unit getting through your lines and locking up 600pts of your army in combat...
Oooh. Hits keep coming.
- Mob Up only works for Boyz now.
- Eldar paired spells and Doom are only available to Craftworld Eldar.
- CP recycling for spells also count toward the 1 per turn cap.
- Bolter Discipline no longer works on vehicle sponsons and such.
- Assassin requisition now costs 2 CP for both matched and narrative play.
Suzuteo wrote: HA HA. So glad I went with the Krast Styrix.
Was worried about charging flyers for a moment, then saw the As If ruling and the Overwatch changes.
So on the down side, you can no longer use stratagems during "as if" phases. Hurts a lot of other factions much more than us, I guess, but it does make our Destroyers less ridiculous. On the other hand, rerolls during Overwatch and Autocaduceus are an insane buff for shooting and a nerf to melee.
- DS them as usual, and so disembark at 9" from any enemies;
- Start on the board, that way you can move for one turn, disembark the next, still have your movement and charge with the Drill to soak Overwatch;
- Infiltrate the Drill with Stygies, try to have first turn, start 9" from the enemy and disembark on your turn, for a less than 3" charge
Stygies one is dead now though.
Why is the Stygies one dead? Didn't the only change to disembarking occur with DESTROYED transports?
What do you mean with the Autocaduceus ? I don't quite grasp the link between it and rerolls ?
And I say Stygies' one is dead because the stupid Beta Rules passed and now Infiltrate is just a 9" move before first turn, so your opponent knows where you're going to be moving and you can't get as close as before. you can still move the Drill 9" before start, and then disembark the Priests on T1, 3" disembark and move, 6", so overall 18" move more or less from your frontline on T1. It's still good but way more predictable.
I've been keeping away from Stygies at 2000 pts for a while since it relies too much on getting first turn, and I only get first turn when playing Drukhari as if it's built in the army. On the other hand DS on T2 hurts too, that means less distraction Fistellans and more shooting in my face. I'll definitely have to think about that when listbuilding. I can play them on the board and charge 2d6+3" with Power Surge I guess.
What do you mean with the Autocaduceus ? I don't quite grasp the link between it and rerolls ?
I think he meant Rainment. Right now, with rerolls, Rainment can generate another rerollable attack. Which in a high volume of fire, and Cawl around, makes quite a difference.
Transport - 132 1x Termite Assault Drill - Storm Bolter
Elite - 176 11x Fulgurite Electro-Priest
Heavy Support - 224 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1998 points 13 CP (-2)
This one is the least invasive. I cut a Crawler and the Assassin to put some Breachers and Infiltrators in.
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 2000 points 13 CP (-2)
A bit more drastic. Cut all three Crawlers and the Assassin for two units of Breachers, a larger unit of Infiltrators, and gave 4x sniper rifles on the Ranger.
EDIT: Oops, Omnispex is 7 points, not 5?! Weird. I guess I have 10 spare points? Hm. Guess I will put some data tethers on the snipers in case I want to give one of them +2 to hit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ideasweasel wrote: @Suzuteo what do you mean you can no longer use stratagems during as if phases.
I think I missed that. So overwatch we can reroll via Cawl but we couldn’t wrath of mars yeah?
My Castellan is also magnetised to be a Valiant! Shame that’s also rubbish lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also what! Assassin nerf already aww
Pretty much. We also used to be able to Infoslave Servo Skull into Wrath of Mars or Plasma Specialists. Lol.
Yeah, sad. CP negative now.
Aaranis wrote: What do you mean with the Autocaduceus ? I don't quite grasp the link between it and rerolls ?
And I say Stygies' one is dead because the stupid Beta Rules passed and now Infiltrate is just a 9" move before first turn, so your opponent knows where you're going to be moving and you can't get as close as before. you can still move the Drill 9" before start, and then disembark the Priests on T1, 3" disembark and move, 6", so overall 18" move more or less from your frontline on T1. It's still good but way more predictable.
I meant Raiment, sorry.
True. It's not dead though. The most successful list still uses it. Fact is, a lot of ITC maps favor getting that 9" move. It also really punishes them for having Scouts because the Fulgurites just gobble a unit up and become unkillable. At worst, it simply makes Dragoons and Drills a Distraction Carnifex.
So I guess the Manipulus is supposed to be 90 points?
Anyone have a link to the article where they started it’s points should be between enginseer and a dominus. I’m thinking of emailing them and linking that as a reference for them.
lash92 wrote: So we sadly can´t outflank Kataphrons anymore (which was expected to get fixed to be fair).
What does this mean for us if we wanna field them still? A big unit of 12 in case we get alpha struck? 2 units of 6?
Hide them behind a building/ ITC ruin and move out turn 1 and fire.
1x12 / 2x6 - depends on buffs, if running ryzaphrons and you need the damage from the strat, probably go 12 otherwise might be better for 2x6 for two reasons:
1. Aggripina bring back strat.
2. Prevent 1 small unit getting through your lines and locking up 600pts of your army in combat...
Might get quite hard to hide 12 destroyers Even with ITC terrain.
Hey guys! I have a question about a thing happened in my last game: during my turn i used a datasmith to succesfully change my robot's protocol from aegis to protector, in the enemy turn i used the stratagem to change the protocol from aegis to conqueror. Here's the problem: my friend think that in my next turn the protocol change to protector and since i've used the stratagem are stuck with that for the rest of the game, I think that since I've used the stratagem the previous change is blocked and my bots are stuck in conqueror.
Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait
Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
Household Choice: House Taranis, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Knight Gallant [20 PL, 352pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: The Paragon Gauntlet, Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Warlord Trait: Landstrider
Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait
Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
Household Choice: House Taranis, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Knight Gallant [20 PL, 352pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: The Paragon Gauntlet, Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Warlord Trait: Landstrider
Do you guys think i should kick one chicken an some skitarii for an neutronager? I rly dunno XD
5 Dragoons can be a bit unwieldy to get intro position with terrain etc, I've found 4 to be the better unit size so with that in mind you can already cut one of them and maybe some vanguard for another onager.
RiceFields92 wrote:Hey guys! I have a question about a thing happened in my last game: during my turn i used a datasmith to succesfully change my robot's protocol from aegis to protector, in the enemy turn i used the stratagem to change the protocol from aegis to conqueror. Here's the problem: my friend think that in my next turn the protocol change to protector and since i've used the stratagem are stuck with that for the rest of the game, I think that since I've used the stratagem the previous change is blocked and my bots are stuck in conqueror.
Pretty sure your friend is right. Overriding the change wiht binharic ovveride locks your robots in that protocol, the fact that the delayed protocol swap from the datasmith "should" change them is blocked by that new "rule" that the stratagem puts on the bots.
VladimirHerzog wrote:Pretty sure your friend is right. Overriding the change wiht binharic ovveride locks your robots in that protocol, the fact that the delayed protocol swap from the datasmith "should" change them is blocked by that new "rule" that the stratagem puts on the bots.
VladimirHerzog wrote:Pretty sure your friend is right. Overriding the change wiht binharic ovveride locks your robots in that protocol, the fact that the delayed protocol swap from the datasmith "should" change them is blocked by that new "rule" that the stratagem puts on the bots.
the change on fly is important for us as with all gun lines. The Cawl buff is nice and i use raiment already.
Still the need for good screen becomes even more demanding.
if a breacher cant tank it then none can. Maybe Dragoons for the -2 to get it so the enemy have to come melee to kill them . But still the problem remains.
I would gladly play 3 battalions MArs ryza and Grai or stygies. but somewhat i dont know why so much the consistency only comes from pure lists.
Especially now we turtle again up with the fly rule i found even if Ryzaplasma is a super effective plan i cant seem to use it with better results than a full Mars list.
i tried MArs battalion with 3- plasma destroyers and a vigilus detatchment all Ryza. Sure it was fun Sure breachers benefit from +1 wound and ryzafrons are a force.
But the list is not the same. you missing Cawl or you might need to remove him or wont work o your vigilus detachment (ryza) you wont get consistent shroud for your advancing Ryza blop.
And i do like my Ryza blop a dominus leading 18 kataphrons 2*6and 1*6 i still find it subpar atm.
Maybe you need to have 2 battalions to make it count...
dominus
enginseer
1*6 breacher
1*6 breacher
1*6 destroyer plasma
and
Agripina
dominus
enginseer
whatever what ever
and 1*6 destroyers grav.
Even so you can buff both you cant overcome -1 to hit you cant cant cant.
So some weird reason i m using all point buffs super effectie as a blop. unfortunate but true.
As a huge blop Mars i have. 2 canticles each round more less what i want.
Ignore cover from Robots for trash campers.
REroll all miss from Cawl.
Reroll al lmiss on melee from hermeticon.
Wrath of mars where need.
Elimination Volley cheap 2 cp for +1+1
+1 from vigilus on shooting where i need extra or if i dont need on Robots.
Maipulus all buffed.
raiment all buffed.
5+ invu from vigilus on all my kataprhons
This sums up i beleive the extra edge the point where the list can perform in greater tier than any other simple lists.
The amount of buffs stacking on the whole list.
Less mobile sure but its lethal. ITs so lethal that i can asure you if you easure up properly vs any gun line if you play first you ll see a miracle.
I have removed the assasin for various reason main the 2cp to get him and the posibility a list will get 4-5 in it default. So we cant ll have them atm.
I seriously consider the list with Custodes still testing. Seems with the new rules somewhat the list completes it self with a good hq fly anti char since atm the only iseu i see with the return of the fly rule we need something killer in melee with mobility. Seems like the list will be complete with custodes.
I know i ssaid i ll try mono Ad mech but the fly rule gives me two options.
1) take 100 points of priests and have them hidden to counter attach most likely vs anything on my robots. and its most likely the way i ll play it for friendly testing.
While the list with some custodes hq might eb the right amount of missing mobility and char killer we need with low cp usage.
@suzuteo.
If you dont have the Mars canticles (Shroud) if you dont have vigilus +1 to hit 5+ invu return one kataprhon from the dead.
Hermeticon to reroll melee etc etc. if you dont go that way you most likely not need breachers. better of with more dragoons.
Breachers for me are super annoy for the enemies i fought so far. That 2+ armor and 5+ invu 3w each is ball breaker and 3-4 attacks in melee. ITs nasty.
while destroyers can use infoslave and i am using it even if 3-4 reach to fire incoming enemies. ITs a plan.
If you take knighta take +3+6 cp with armogers or knights. they will do the job and support them with ad mech stygies etc. one list can be eavy high T model list that wil win most games with no preparation. Or make a TRoop heavy list but you eed the buffs. You need even more troops than i say i see lists with 30 kataphrons working better. Make a plan and play it. make the list and take the advantage i repeat. Mixing good units wont win. Make a plan.
@Yoda79
I figured -1 to hit Breachers could be useful in holding objectives and providing some supporting fire. My list is majority melee, so I expect most action to occur midfield.
Is 5++ really necessary? If they are shooting AP-3 at my Breachers instead of my Knight, Dragoons, or Drill, that's a big win for me. Lol.
I am trying for ITC AdMech. I cannot take a Knight Lance. Only a SH Auxiliary with a lone Knight.
Suzuteo wrote: @Yoda79
I figured -1 to hit Breachers could be useful in holding objectives and providing some supporting fire. My list is majority melee, so I expect most action to occur midfield.
Is 5++ really necessary? If they are shooting AP-3 at my Breachers instead of my Knight, Dragoons, or Drill, that's a big win for me. Lol.
Thats how I feel about giving them a 5++ as well, sure i have a better invuln save, and a 4 up with acquisition, but if they are really using anything with 3-4 ap to deal with them, there is very few low strength, low damage weapons designed for that. So a breacher taking a lascannon or dark lance shot instead of my kastellan or onagers is a win for me.
Suzuteo wrote: @Yoda79
I figured -1 to hit Breachers could be useful in holding objectives and providing some supporting fire. My list is majority melee, so I expect most action to occur midfield.
Is 5++ really necessary? If they are shooting AP-3 at my Breachers instead of my Knight, Dragoons, or Drill, that's a big win for me. Lol.
I am trying for ITC AdMech. I cannot take a Knight Lance. Only a SH Auxiliary with a lone Knight.
I hope you don't mind me jumping in to reply here. The 5++ is important, as you say, for Acquisition at any Cost but it's also important if you're using the Breachers to screen your Kastellan Robots. Every Breacher that stays alive is a model making it more difficult for your opponent to tie up the Kastelan's in melee, which is their main weakness. It's hugely difficult to outshoot an Ad Mech gunline and our real weakness is Fly melee units, units that fight twice and Overwatch-free pile ins and consolidation moves. I would gladly pay the CP to make my two Breacher units a more effective screen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ideasweasel wrote: FAQ query, if you wanted to Lucius deep strike kastelan shooty bots, would they now suffer the -1 to hit for moving with heavy weapons?
I once had a game where I teleported some into a hard to reach area and they cleaned up
It was already a fairly rare move(why would you) but now there is even less of s reason. Have I read that right?
As far as I know teleporting/deepstriking units has always meant that they count as having moved.
Against ap3 shooting 5++ is not worth while largely because you have cover 2-3 turns ao gain little benefit. Its really AP4 shooting where it would matter and we dont see a lot of that
However against a melee army ap3+ is quite common thunder hammers power swords and since cover isnt in effect it makes the 5++ quite usefull.
So really i would take the detatchment if you have tge cp then decide based on your opponent if you need the buff
For my list, since the Breachers are more a backfield unit than a defensive unit, then I guess the answer is no, 3 CP is not worth making two units 5++. I mean, consider my alternatives: Infiltration, Conqueror Doctrina, Zealous Congregation, Tech-Adepts, Wrath of Mars, Machine Spirit Resurgent, Knight of the Cog, Acquisition at all Costs, Steel Mind... we have a lot of good stratagems, actually.
Thats what i said. The wole point making a list is the decisions you need to make in game. I dont take 4cp/game to boost 5+ invu if i dont need. Especially in my destroyers backfield.
But i wrote the block text to make sure you all understand as we rise the competitive bar vs experienced enemies harder lists combos you ll need to build up on this.
If you dont use Cawl breachers shoot bs4+ if you dont have them melee invu they cant tank etc etc what decisions you ll take to spend cp is yours and you ll have to make it prior each game .
The whole post was ment to make you think if they are idd the proper unit. caus ethey become v v good if you got some options. No melee rerolls no shooting rerolls no 5+ sitting back filed ??? take destroyers with flamers and info skull or more dragoosn etc etc. just getting you to think about the otpions whn you know you wont use then properly.
So after the "nerf" to the Guard Dagger:
Anyone still using Destroyers? I really wanna include some Ryzaphrons, but they feel so squishy for their point cost...
lash92 wrote: So after the "nerf" to the Guard Dagger:
Anyone still using Destroyers? I really wanna include some Ryzaphrons, but they feel so squishy for their point cost...
I'll still be using Destroyers though mostly as Mars. They put out a lot of damage for their points so the squishiness is just a trade off for that, for their points they're pretty good. We've always got the option for Shroudpsalm + Acquisition at any Cost if they're being threatened. 2+ 4++ from range is pretty good. If you want to keep them safe turn one there's always Lucius or an Imperial Bunker.
Seriously? What the hell is shooting them that they feel squishy? They're toughness 5 with 3 wounds and 3+ save with shroudpsalm and the ability to revive. If your opponent is dedicating their entire army to kill them then its really on you for not punishing that with having other viable threats on the board. You actually seriously think theyre expensive? Compared to what exactly? Tell me what other units are kicking out that massive amount of firepower for the price tag. The castellan is dead, get with the times people. You should have seen what they costed before chapter approved, and I still took them then!
lash92 wrote: So after the "nerf" to the Guard Dagger:
Anyone still using Destroyers? I really wanna include some Ryzaphrons, but they feel so squishy for their point cost...
I'll still be using Destroyers though mostly as Mars. They put out a lot of damage for their points so the squishiness is just a trade off for that, for their points they're pretty good. We've always got the option for Shroudpsalm + Acquisition at any Cost if they're being threatened. 2+ 4++ from range is pretty good. If you want to keep them safe turn one there's always Lucius or an Imperial Bunker.
I never used the dagger with my destroyers since i kind of expected the interaction to get axed. If you play with decent enough ruins, you can probably hide 6 of them from the majority of your opponent's army. Them being infantry measn that they can just walk out of the ruins and start shooting when you need them to. They are the main (burst) damage dealers in my army, with onagers taking up after them as resilient damage dealers.
lash92 wrote: Are you giving them grav as mars so you can potentially also WoM with then?
I haven't so far but I'm considering it. I'm a bit put off grav because it doesn't do much that you can't achieve with triple phosphor Kastelan's and it feels less versatile than plasma. I suppose if you're running multiple neutron lasers then the grav is perfectly suitable. Generally if I'm looking for a backup unit for potential mid/late game WoM I use Sicarian Infiltrators.
ultimentra wrote: Seriously? What the hell is shooting them that they feel squishy? They're toughness 5 with 3 wounds and 3+ save with shroudpsalm and the ability to revive. If your opponent is dedicating their entire army to kill them then its really on you for not punishing that with having other viable threats on the board. You actually seriously think theyre expensive? Compared to what exactly? Tell me what other units are kicking out that massive amount of firepower for the price tag. The castellan is dead, get with the times people. You should have seen what they costed before chapter approved, and I still took them then!
Lets keep the discussion calm ;-)
My meta is full of things with decent strength, high rate of fire and multiple damage. Think about tripple Riptide, Dark Eldar Dissi canons etc.
But you are right that having other threats is key. I´m actually thinking about having a big unit of Destroyers (9-12) and a unit of dragoons (4-6) which infiltrate up the board.
Imo they lack defensive capabilites for their point cost yes. Which is fine I guess since offensively they are absolute bonkers.
ultimentra wrote: Seriously? What the hell is shooting them that they feel squishy? They're toughness 5 with 3 wounds and 3+ save with shroudpsalm and the ability to revive. If your opponent is dedicating their entire army to kill them then its really on you for not punishing that with having other viable threats on the board. You actually seriously think theyre expensive? Compared to what exactly? Tell me what other units are kicking out that massive amount of firepower for the price tag. The castellan is dead, get with the times people. You should have seen what they costed before chapter approved, and I still took them then!
Lets keep the discussion calm ;-)
My meta is full of things with decent strength, high rate of fire and multiple damage. Think about tripple Riptide, Dark Eldar Dissi canons etc.
But you are right that having other threats is key. I´m actually thinking about having a big unit of Destroyers (9-12) and a unit of dragoons (4-6) which infiltrate up the board.
Imo they lack defensive capabilites for their point cost yes. Which is fine I guess since offensively they are absolute bonkers.
They pair amazingly well with a melee threat like dragoons/electropriest. Telling your opponent "Deal with these or else" with multiple units is that way to play admech.
Indeed, we certainly don't lack in offensive capability and we are fairly resilient from range. In my experience I lose games because my opponent has been able to work their way around or through my screens. Having a unit tri-pointed/held hostage next to my gunline or having the Kastelans otherwise engaged in combat is often the way I lose. Of course this is usually through my own failings in positioning my screens but it's something I find quite difficult to effectively and consistently avoid - particularly against units that Fly, move twice, fight twice or a combination of those.
Another thing we can struggle with, as with all gunlines, is physical board control. We can effectively remove enemy units from objectives but it's not always easy to take them. One of the reasons I like Breachers is that they have a similar defensive profile to our main damage dealers, so it isn't always an easy choice for the opponent having to decide between removing the screens or removing the heavy hitters.
xlDuke wrote: Indeed, we certainly don't lack in offensive capability and we are fairly resilient from range. In my experience I lose games because my opponent has been able to work their way around or through my screens. Having a unit tri-pointed/held hostage next to my gunline or having the Kastelans otherwise engaged in combat is often the way I lose. Of course this is usually through my own failings in positioning my screens but it's something I find quite difficult to effectively and consistently avoid - particularly against units that Fly, move twice, fight twice or a combination of those.
Another thing we can struggle with, as with all gunlines, is physical board control. We can effectively remove enemy units from objectives but it's not always easy to take them. One of the reasons I like Breachers is that they have a similar defensive profile to our main damage dealers, so it isn't always an easy choice for the opponent having to decide between removing the screens or removing the heavy hitters.
Couldn´t agree more with all of that. With the increase in CP cost for an single assassin I´m trying out the 4 assassin detachment as my third one. They offer some decent counter punch against fast melee units plus they can also offer mobility through deepstrike, plus boardcontrol. Placing a Culexus on an objective can get quite frustrating for your opponent
xlDuke wrote: Indeed, we certainly don't lack in offensive capability and we are fairly resilient from range. In my experience I lose games because my opponent has been able to work their way around or through my screens. Having a unit tri-pointed/held hostage next to my gunline or having the Kastelans otherwise engaged in combat is often the way I lose. Of course this is usually through my own failings in positioning my screens but it's something I find quite difficult to effectively and consistently avoid - particularly against units that Fly, move twice, fight twice or a combination of those.
Another thing we can struggle with, as with all gunlines, is physical board control. We can effectively remove enemy units from objectives but it's not always easy to take them. One of the reasons I like Breachers is that they have a similar defensive profile to our main damage dealers, so it isn't always an easy choice for the opponent having to decide between removing the screens or removing the heavy hitters.
Couldn´t agree more with all of that. With the increase in CP cost for an single assassin I´m trying out the 4 assassin detachment as my third one. They offer some decent counter punch against fast melee units plus they can also offer mobility through deepstrike, plus boardcontrol. Placing a Culexus on an objective can get quite frustrating for your opponent
I've not tried the Assassin's much yet but an Eversor saved my last game for me by killing a unit that would otherwise have tied up my Kastelans for most of the game. I'll be really interested to read how the full Execution Force turns out for you. It certainly adds a huge amount of versatility as you say, would you run it alongside two Battalions or perhaps a Brigade?
xlDuke wrote: Indeed, we certainly don't lack in offensive capability and we are fairly resilient from range. In my experience I lose games because my opponent has been able to work their way around or through my screens. Having a unit tri-pointed/held hostage next to my gunline or having the Kastelans otherwise engaged in combat is often the way I lose. Of course this is usually through my own failings in positioning my screens but it's something I find quite difficult to effectively and consistently avoid - particularly against units that Fly, move twice, fight twice or a combination of those.
Another thing we can struggle with, as with all gunlines, is physical board control. We can effectively remove enemy units from objectives but it's not always easy to take them. One of the reasons I like Breachers is that they have a similar defensive profile to our main damage dealers, so it isn't always an easy choice for the opponent having to decide between removing the screens or removing the heavy hitters.
Couldn´t agree more with all of that. With the increase in CP cost for an single assassin I´m trying out the 4 assassin detachment as my third one. They offer some decent counter punch against fast melee units plus they can also offer mobility through deepstrike, plus boardcontrol. Placing a Culexus on an objective can get quite frustrating for your opponent
I've not tried the Assassin's much yet but an Eversor saved my last game for me by killing a unit that would otherwise have tied up my Kastelans for most of the game. I'll be really interested to read how the full Execution Force turns out for you. It certainly adds a huge amount of versatility as you say, would you run it alongside two Battalions or perhaps a Brigade?
Prior to the FAQ I was running the Operative Sanctioned Stratagem. I ususally run a Vindicare because I also take about 4x Transuranic Arquebus. I use the Arquebus to drop characters down to a couple of wounds then finish off with the assassin, spend 1cp and gain 2 back... worked quite well - it kept my ryzaphrons in enough CP mostly...
If I was against a psyker heavy list e.g. eldar/Tsons etc. I might go for a Culexus but again often those armies might also have characters hiding behind ++ saves which mean the vindicare again is a good deal (I run a second battalion of Graia - cheap, 2x E, 3x Vanguard - for their strat)
Against somthing like Nids where there is not a lot of infantry characters I would have tended to go for the Everasor as he could also have thinned out the chaff units the Nid player brought.
Note that now the FAQ dropped Culexus vs. Dark Reapers - the DR win as if there is two rules that force hits on a certain roll the attacker wins... (FAQ Rulebook page 7).
Automatically Appended Next Post: The other fun unit I tried out the other day was the Ambull.
Probably not worth it for competative play, but take in an Aux Support detachment for 70pts what you get is not bad.
Free deepstrike/redeploy on a combat monster each turn.
T6, 7W, 3+ save & regaining D3 wounds per battle round
4A @ S6 -3AP, D3 damage
if there is a unit of devatators etc on the backfield he can pop up and either force the opponent to focus fire until dead (taking away fire from your ryzaphrons Kastellans etc.) or he will make the points back ususally. he can also claim objectives and linebreaker if you need to...
Ideasweasel wrote: Can people weigh on on breachers. I am starting to see lots of people taking them but I am not quite understanding their application
Hitting on 4’s for melee doesn’t seem that great. And yet people seem to be doing really well with them (which is nice)
Would someone be able to clarify what they shine against and the best use of them ie targets etc
Thanks
They sit there as a really tough screen with big bases - they block a lot of space preventing non-flying units from reaching your lines.
might push forward a bit to capture nearby objectives.
occasionally they damage light vehicles with haywire.
for 30 points a pop not a bad choice, esp. in a servitor maniple for a 5++, they can get to a 1+/4++ fairly easily.
Ideasweasel wrote: Can people weigh on on breachers. I am starting to see lots of people taking them but I am not quite understanding their application
Hitting on 4’s for melee doesn’t seem that great. And yet people seem to be doing really well with them (which is nice)
Would someone be able to clarify what they shine against and the best use of them ie targets etc
Thanks
Just my opinion as a casual player, but they are tougher than terminators against most things (while costing the same) and more of a threat in shooting vs. vehicles, with competent melee also. they really tie the enemy up trying to kill them and they can't be ignored as they are a moderate to good threat against everything (their default gun is as good as a krak missile launcher vs vehicles, and better against light vehicles).
Yeah its primarily their durability vs cost.
Theyre not vehicles, despite looking like second-rate walkers, so they can still go into ruins and ignore anti-vehicle rules.
Theyre still troopers, so they objectsecure
Theyre not that expensive.
Breachers basically require insane amounts of dakka or high AP weapons to deal with reliably, and they just arent worth using such weapons on them unless you need them off an objective badly or theres nothing else to hit anyway.
Its the same mentality i used Tau Piranha in older editions: just durable enough to require bigger guns or a charge to deal with, and were often a complete waste of time to deal with them since they were so cheap.
Destroyers are sorta pricy but whatcha want for a big-plasmagun user?
So as a new casual mechanicus player, I bought a the start collecting box, a box of kastellans and some kataphrons. Would it be best to assemble the kataphrons as breachers or destroyers?
Rex2490 wrote: Page 138 – The Dagger of Tu’Sakh
Add the following sentence at the start of the rules text:
‘Infantry Officer model only.’
Change the first sentence to read:
‘During deployment, you can set up the bearer and
one Astra Militarum Infantry unit from your
army behind enemy lines instead of placing them on
the battlefield.
There goes that, too.
Ha! Told you guys this wasn't intended the way it was being used.
Rex2490 wrote: Page 138 – The Dagger of Tu’Sakh
Add the following sentence at the start of the rules text:
‘Infantry Officer model only.’
Change the first sentence to read:
‘During deployment, you can set up the bearer and
one Astra Militarum Infantry unit from your
army behind enemy lines instead of placing them on
the battlefield.
There goes that, too.
Ha! Told you guys this wasn't intended the way it was being used.
Oh I know, never was with that. Nor did I want it to be a thing as good as it sounded. Usually in 40k, I go by "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".
Ha! Told you guys this wasn't intended the way it was being used.
I think no one really thought that it was intended to be like that. I for my part just used it, since RAW it was totally legal.
So what are you running post FAQ if I might ask? You always had some interesting lists
For those of you who are running Cawlstar: How many robots do you use atm?
ThePie wrote: So as a new casual mechanicus player, I bought a the start collecting box, a box of kastellans and some kataphrons. Would it be best to assemble the kataphrons as breachers or destroyers?
Personally prefer plasma destroyers with flamers secondary weapons.
reasons:
1. you have skitarii for chaff shield (although you need a few more of them for this...).
2. plasma/grav = plasma is more versitile easier to take out vehicles, monsters, primaris etc. but grav has reliability - a standard amount of shots per gun. if you run the plasma kataphrons as the forgeworld Ryza (Ryzaphrons) they can be boosted up as an insane amount of damage for their points. run them as a servitor maniple from Vigilus Defiant book, allowing you to have +1 to hit for 1CP (alternatively if you have Kastellans +1 to hit for both for 2CP without vigilus). then the Ryza stratagem: Plasma Specialists for 1CP to ass +1 to wound rolls and +1 damage per shot. you end up with overcharging plasma destroyers hitting on 3+ (rerolling 1's because you have a Dominus within 6"...) which can't blow up on a roll of a 1 because of the +1 to hit. S8, but wounding T7 & lower on 2+, T8 on 3+, and T9 or higher on 4+. for a flat 3 damage per shot...
3. flamers/phosphor blasters - I run as flamers for overwatch prevention as a last resort. not much in it though. if you have a Tech-Priest Manipulus from one of our Kill Team boxes he can add +3" range to the flamers and +6" range to the plasma as well. meaning unless the enemny wants a 12" charge he will be hit by the flamers. and your plasma can reach accross the board ususually.
might also suggest you take the skitarii as 5x rangers with transuranic arquebus, and 5x vanguard either no upgrades or with plasma caliver. as the rangers can sit in the backfield and plink off characters, and the vanguard are mostly chaff to prevent charges of kastellans/onager/kataphrons...
I would suggest you buy/convert the following in the future:
1. a couple of Enginseers - cheap HQ's to allow you to take a cheap second battalion for CP.
2. at least 1 more skitarii box, possibly 2 (or start collecting again) as this will allow you to have enough infantry for 2x battalions - you need 3x troops for each (5x 5man vanguard/rangers, 1x Kataphrons)
3. one or two dunecrawlers (inc. in start collecting...) as neutron lasers or Icarus arrays are the best weapons here.
4. another box of Kataphrons to boost up the Ryzaphrons up to 6 models - they have a lot more threat at 6 models than 3...
3. sydonian Dragoons with taser lances - they can range forward, and take ground floor objectives tie up melee units etc. for a cheap model. run 4 of them with the strat conquerer doctrina and watch that orc horde evaporate.
The Destroyers can also be quite easily magnetized, so you can switch between weapon options.
I would also recommend the Kill team box with the manipulus and 5 Infiltrators.
Ha! Told you guys this wasn't intended the way it was being used.
I think no one really thought that it was intended to be like that. I for my part just used it, since RAW it was totally legal.
So what are you running post FAQ if I might ask? You always had some interesting lists
For those of you who are running Cawlstar: How many robots do you use atm?
I find 4 to be a good number, though I've not run more. 4 is enough to kill 4 small units, two large ones or one high wound model with perhaps a couple of surviving models/few wounds left to be finished off by other units. It's also simpler to screen fewer Kastelans.
ThePie wrote: So as a new casual mechanicus player, I bought a the start collecting box, a box of kastellans and some kataphrons. Would it be best to assemble the kataphrons as breachers or destroyers?
These are difficult questions to answer. Really I think that you couldn't go far wrong with either choice but you're currently low on screening units, which Breachers would give you. You're also a little low on anti-infantry and anti-vehicle which are covered more by Destroyers than Breachers, though Breachers have fairly decent anti-vehicle for low points levels.
Going for Destroyers will lean you toward a more powerful offense whereas Breachers give you more defense. If you're into modelling the best thing to do is have your Kataphrons able to be assembled as either, by keeping them modular and not gluing the gun arms, stocks and barrels together or to the main body.
Whatever you choose you won't be impeding yourself. I would advise that the next thing you get be a Tech-Priest Enginseer/Tech-Priest Manipulus for a second HQ to fill a Battalion, As Mech has great stratagems and we rely on them somewhat. If you want a list filled with multi-wound models more Breachers/Destroyers would be good troops, if not and you'd like some more standard infantry Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard are great. Building toward a second Battalion with 2x Enginseers and 2x Rangers/Vanguard/one of each gets you working toward larger points games and is a detachment I never go without, it's basically to boost your CP and bolster your screens. It's also difficult to go wrong with another Start Collecting! or two. You end up with spare Dominus' but the value is still good.
I take 2 blocks of 6 breachers anchored by a dominous
You really take them for survivability
But
The eye of agripinaa makes them surprisingly offensive across 3+ turns a more output than destroyers which tend to go off once then die
The prime hermiticon on the dominous is really underated vs some opponents the 75% hit rate makes the breachers quite good vs non dedicated mellee units
After all the games I've played and since I always try to push you all to play a plan. I'll say this.
I use Mars
Cawl is vital most likely because I use robts breachers and destroyers.
I love ryza but can't field it effectively while Mars gives me more options. If I go ryza and make a solid detachment breachers destreyers domiinus it has mobility and I suggest you all take it as second detachment if you don't use Robots if you use alles knights etc.
So if you play alied soup I'd suggest you try
Vigilus detachment
Dominus hermeticon (maybe heal or rayment)
Engineer ( wt vigilus maybe ) if you plan run serviors.
If you go Mars gun line Cawl robts
I suggest beyond manipulis Cawl
2*5-6 breachers hydrylc
8+ Plasm destroyers
This are minimum you can take 2*5 breachers more etc.
Why hydralic well as you have all nderstood o far breaches are screen. F they become Locked n combat no problem to stay there. Rerolling 4+ so you would as str 6 for 1 w is nothing.
But hitting on 5s rerolling miss wounding as str 10 for d3 damage is closer to the role they serve. Or try to have one unit each.
Same for destroyer and flmers vs phoshor. If you play them aggressively and you must as ryza bloop flamers work.
As Mars gunlne I use manipuls for a sweet 30" rapid 15 phoshor .
As Mars I use all buffs even frst rounds breachers rerolling 4 d3-d6 damge is good.
So it all come down to playstyle and list.
I don't use onngers ATM I prefer destroes . Robots are stationary enough for me and he onagers can screen or fall back.
I’m curious about this as well. Like what pairs with them. I would assume certain Admech units play nice with kataphrons but dragoons electropriests etc probably not so much of a use for them?
I have a drill and want to make it work. Yoda have you found stygies breachers to be pretty solid or does mars just outshine the rest (as far as breachers go)
I use 3 robots ATM but can be 4 depending on the list. More cp 3 robots less cp 4.
Stygies is superb but i cant imagine bs4+ with out Cawl.
Even with elimination volley rerolls are must. Because enemy will use stygies or equal defence and Mars Cawl elimination and vigilus +1 to hit can keep plasma overcharged even vs planes.
As I said beyond the Mars gun line anything else can be good in a soup? I play stygies if I use dragoons. Onagers etc . A heavy detachment snipers back filed etc. One detachment can be stygies if you don't have a bloop gun line and separate forces or you have assault like knighs and dragoons so you can use stygies to force your oponent to go kill your rangers melee.
I pull use stugies for a nice Robot destroyers back field but I'd have to sacrifice wrath of Mars and that is not valid.
I have used wrath of Mars in same game on infiltrators robots destroyers depending on the target etc.
This the main reason I don't take ryza. I've tested with Mars and ruza with two units of destroyers was not bad I had
Elimination volley for Mars robots destroyers and vigilus for ryza
Lethal but I xplained in various posts why I decided to go full Mars .
After faq in have yet to test ryza again . And I will definetly try custodes in my list vs assassin's that I stopped using after faq.
So depending on cp results etc I'm still thinking about a versatile force maybe stygies ryza custodes or Mars ruza . Agripiina even. Still testing various lists .
Breachers opened up a good combo in list building .
After faq in have yet to test ryza again . And I will definetly try custodes in my list vs assassin's that I stopped using after faq.
So depending on cp results etc I'm still thinking about a versatile force maybe stygies ryza custodes or Mars ruza . Agripiina even. Still testing various lists .
Yeah the single Assassin got really expensive at 2CP. I´m thinking about taking all 4 so I don´t need to spend 2CP but gain 1. I will test this.
Custodes might be viable again, same for Blood Angels, but Blood Angels + AdMech with Vigilus gets expensive CP wise.
Yup. If it is any decent its sooo big buff for us. Value of every priest increase, and TPE particularly, since now there will be more targets to repair. Heck even manipulus may be viable now, since there will be more targets that could realistically benefit from his +1 to charge buff(and he can footslog with vehicles, as most of the time they are to big to go in straight line through terrain, while manipulus can go straight through ruins).
Im little bit afraid that they will make it to work on< forge world> infantry, and then it won't work with secutariI.
Anyway its like 4 or 5 for me, since i love mechanized armies.
Ha! Told you guys this wasn't intended the way it was being used.
I think no one really thought that it was intended to be like that. I for my part just used it, since RAW it was totally legal.
So what are you running post FAQ if I might ask? You always had some interesting lists
For those of you who are running Cawlstar: How many robots do you use atm?
I ran this at adepticon and finished 25th (3-1) because I planted in one game before moving against a good opponent and he made me pay for it;
Mars Batt (servitor maniple)
Cawl
Tech priest
2x10 rangers with omni
7 breachers
3 shooty robots
2 icarus walkers
Mars Batt
Tech priest
Manipulus
2x10 vanguard
10 rangers with omni
6 infiltrators
2 drills
Mixed elite detachment
Lucius dominus
3x4 graia servitors
Likely dropping the dominus for an assassin at this point and some mild tweaking but the list will stay mostly the same till I see our newest transport.
With the fly rule back in the charge phase, my gunline list is looking kinda fragile and prone to getting locked up. Any ideas? Currently running 3x bots, 12x breachers, 9x destroyers + chaff. The breachers have reroll in fight phase but its tough screening for those dam smash capts that only need a tiny gap. I would love to bring my priests back but they just die so fast. Is this type of gunline list dead now or has anyone got any bright ideas to help my screening?
Kanluwen wrote:I hope it literally just will transport Skitarii keyworded models.
Maybe Techpriests and their Servitors can come along. But no Electropriests.
I wouldn´t mind a transport for my Destroyers But to be fair this could be broken.
Hulksmash wrote:
I ran this at adepticon and finished 25th (3-1) because I planted in one game before moving against a good opponent and he made me pay for it;
Mars Batt (servitor maniple)
Cawl
Tech priest
2x10 rangers with omni
7 breachers
3 shooty robots
2 icarus walkers
Mars Batt
Tech priest
Manipulus
2x10 vanguard
10 rangers with omni
6 infiltrators
2 drills
Mixed elite detachment
Lucius dominus
3x4 graia servitors
Likely dropping the dominus for an assassin at this point and some mild tweaking but the list will stay mostly the same till I see our newest transport.
Nice to see someone running so many Skitarii and having success with them!
Envii wrote:With the fly rule back in the charge phase, my gunline list is looking kinda fragile and prone to getting locked up. Any ideas? Currently running 3x bots, 12x breachers, 9x destroyers + chaff. The breachers have reroll in fight phase but its tough screening for those dam smash capts that only need a tiny gap. I would love to bring my priests back but they just die so fast. Is this type of gunline list dead now or has anyone got any bright ideas to help my screening?
- 12" move at least, I think that's not too demanding
- <Fly> would be nice but would be probably overcosted and while nice, it's not necessary for a mere transport
- 12 models capacity, to fit a full squad of Skitarii and a pair of support characters
- Broad-spectrum data-tether for +1 Ld for Skitarii
- Not too many weapons, I want a box for my Skitarii, not a battle tank that costs 250 pts
- A 5++
What we'll probably get:
- 12" move, no fly
- 10 models capacity
- 1 or 2 Heavy Stubbers as guns
- Basically a Rhino
Anyway I'm glad they're answering our prayers, first started back in 7th. I love the way they've parodied that in their video too ;D
-Only holds Skitarii or Techpriest models. MaybeServitors.
-A decent armament. It doesn't have to be a battle tank, but it should at least be toting something we don't have a ton of. Would be interesting to have an indirect fire weapon on it, some kind of energy mortar or the like.
MAJOR WISHLISTING:
-Ability to act as a kind of 'repeater' for buffs on units. Put Doctrina Imperatives on a unit within range, it applies it to another unit at the same time.
-Can potentially deploy Servo-Skulls as a kind of 'area denial' bit.
What I basically want is Admech's Valkyrie. To transport and drop 3 Plasma Calivers in Ryza, anywhere, turn 1. To transport and deliver a pack of melee Infantry into the ruins where enemy Mortars are bunkered down. To fly the obsec unit to the Maelstorm marker on the other side of the board. Would help with the struggle for the table control, the abysmal mobility of the army, and out of LoS opponents.
What we will most likely get is the Onager without the big guns. Hopefully, it would take at least 10 models and cost below 75 pts. The usual Data Tether is my bet for the equipment, HStubbers for weaponry. I hope it could take Arc Rifles, or Cognis Flamers, but I don't have my fingers crossed. Although, what I'd dig is an inv/save improvement aura, or even better: -hit aura. Or any area survivability tool, that would make even footslogging army... you know, the one the codex is supposed to be... somewhat viable.
Judging from the size of the exhausts and vents on the rumour engine pic - we might be looking at a Vyper/Landspeeder Storm type transport, roughly the size of a onager turret.
Enough space for 5 at worst, 6 if we're lucky. So no room for Kataphrons.
I really don't believe we'll get a flyer, we're the faction the most anchored to the ground so far and I believe that's how the game designers want our army to be. I think it's cool that an army has strength and weaknesses to have some identity, it's just bad when you can just compare to other factions because you have access to other factions.
And if they release a 5-man cap vehicle they'll get so trashed by the community they'll stop producing ideas. What would even be the point of that in AdMech ? The size doesn't mean a lot when you know 10 Scions fit in a Taurox.
5 model cap would be a... *cough* *self-censorship*. Unless costing less than 50 pts and having an obligatory Fly (or Fly like ability to ignore terrain). OR some really unique ability to make up for not having even a capacity for a full squad of Skitarii.
On a side note - I noticed someone has actually assembled the Phosphor Onager. It's a more rare specimen than the Ruststalker
Depends on the weapons really, whether it's more falcon/razorback than waveserpent/rhino.
Plus some value I guess in moving small units and characters about, Ruststalkers etc. No saying it's a good idea, just pointing out how big the vehicle might be based on the pics we've likely had of it.
There's no base there either, and it's a pic of a painted model - so either it's a skimmer on a flying base or bigger than the recent buggy sized things and more 'T-shaped' with the front bit ahead of those engine/fans extended out sideways as well as forward. Something three hatches wide with legs and not fitting on a Onager base though? Seems unlikely
I'd guess skimmer, but physically a smaller sized model than a Raider.
dadamowsky wrote: 5 model cap would be a... *cough* *self-censorship*. Unless costing less than 50 pts and having an obligatory Fly (or Fly like ability to ignore terrain). OR some really unique ability to make up for not having even a capacity for a full squad of Skitarii.
On a side note - I noticed someone has actually assembled the Phosphor Onager. It's a more rare specimen than the Ruststalker
Ha! Surely you recognise The Phospher Onager? It's taken from the 3D view on the GW store site.
5 model cap would be nearly useless unless the transport itself was actually a threat in some form (even just being durable is a threat as it can eat overwatch reliably). Its pretty much the only reason i like my battlewagons right now as orks...the wagon itself can bring the pain despite the occupants being gone...
Given all of our vehicles are walking i'd be surprised if it didnt have spider-legs and only moved 8" as a result, but had some other "stability" rule to make up for its lack of speed (just firing heavy while moving wouldnt mean much on a transport)
Hmm... I sort of agree that if Castellan is dead, Destroyers are a lot less vulnerable than they used to be. If so, would we want to run a single unit of 6x, or do people really think 9x is the right size? And even if I were to run them, would I also be bringing the Breachers? Not sure I want to build that many Kataphrons. Haha.
Right now, my plan is to infiltrate Dragoons and Drill+Fulgurites, walk a Knight up there as well, and also deep strike some Infiltrators. Meanwhile, I've got 2x4 Breachers, 3x5 Vanguard, and 4x5 Rangers camping objectives behind them:
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1997 points 13 CP (-2)
In my mind, Breachers are just a cheap way to hold objectives. Skitarii are too easily removed by Bolter shots. Breachers are extremely annoying to remove, especially if they have -1 to hit or the ability to Send in the Next Wave.
I just got off a plane. Very excited to get a transport.
@Suzuteo just got off a flying transport, let’s hope the Admech one can fly too! List looks fun, let us know how the breachers do as I’m thinking of getting some
@Suzuteo:
I'm going to run a unit of 9. Having played with 6 you really start to notice those casualties fast, so a bigger squad size kind of negates this.
Also keep in mind since the Castellan is dead we might see a shift towards armour. E.g. LR Tank commanders were already getting quite popular with their price drop in CA and the Vigilus battle canon. Having a unit which can easily one shot those is invaluable imo.
It's definitely going to be a walking transport based on the Onager aka M.U.L.E design. The sneak pics were so similar to an Onager one could be forgiven for thinking it was the same model.
As for how that would work, maybe we'll see some sort of open topped ability that allows units to fire from within. I'm cool with a smaller capacity if my guys can fire out of it, especially if it gives a way to move and shoot arquebuses. Wouldn't be the first transport with that ability this edition correct? If it is indeed based on the Onager chassis, it has a decent chance of being given broad spectrum data tethers and basic weapons like heavy stubbers or perhaps a light heavy weapon like autocannons or something. The chassis would need to be enlarged a bit to carry much more than a minimum squad though. Perhaps a firing platform on top, or making an armored compartment where the main weapon used to be for occupants to fire out. Won't be super fast but have utility. Could be some sort of command variant focused on buffs and repairs?
It will probably be a duel kit, like many other models these days. Question is what would the second option be, perhaps a lighter fire support style vehicle focused on light armor and range, and a more heavily armored version designed to get stuck into rough areas? It'd be that, or making it an upgrade sprue to the Onager and packaging it with the Onager. Bonus points is that it will probably get the same forcefield the Onager gets, if we're really lucky it'll even work with regular Onagers to reroll 1's on invulns.
On to actual tactics, even if the Castellan isn't actually dead, the reaction of the Joe Schmoe net listing types is that it's dead as a doornail, so the numbers you see will drop. However, just because the Castellan was nerfed doesn't mean it's toast. I wouldn't be surprised if some people keep running it if the meta shifts just to catch their opponent off guard. The thing still hits like a truck, its just priced more fairly now. The main upside I see is that our vehicles last longer now, such as Onagers and Kastellans, but I'm sure something else will rise to fill the Castellan's spot.
MrMoustaffa wrote: It's definitely going to be a walking transport based on the Onager aka M.U.L.E design. The sneak pics were so similar to an Onager one could be forgiven for thinking it was the same model.
As for how that would work, maybe we'll see some sort of open topped ability that allows units to fire from within. I'm cool with a smaller capacity if my guys can fire out of it, especially if it gives a way to move and shoot arquebuses. Wouldn't be the first transport with that ability this edition correct? If it is indeed based on the Onager chassis, it has a decent chance of being given broad spectrum data tethers and basic weapons like heavy stubbers or perhaps a light heavy weapon like autocannons or something. The chassis would need to be enlarged a bit to carry much more than a minimum squad though. Perhaps a firing platform on top, or making an armored compartment where the main weapon used to be for occupants to fire out. Won't be super fast but have utility. Could be some sort of command variant focused on buffs and repairs?
Aka slower venoms? Butter to bread for drukhari? That would be awesome. Blasters are disgusting in venoms, and so would plasma calivers be if we had open toped vehicle.
On to actual tactics, even if the Castellan isn't actually dead, the reaction of the Joe Schmoe net listing types is that it's dead as a doornail, so the numbers you see will drop. However, just because the Castellan was nerfed doesn't mean it's toast. I wouldn't be surprised if some people keep running it if the meta shifts just to catch their opponent off guard. The thing still hits like a truck, its just priced more fairly now. The main upside I see is that our vehicles last longer now, such as Onagers and Kastellans, but I'm sure something else will rise to fill the Castellan's spot.
I second to that.
Castellan is not dead. Not at all. Weaker? Yes, but anyone who thinks that he can run his non inv save vehicles now in tournaments will be sadly surprised. Castellan list will still be with us, now more in form supper concentrated around castellan instead dumb "slap it to my 1400 Pts list because it is beast thing ever". 100 Pts? Pff, please, thats nothing. Castellan players should be more worried about smash captians and custodes bike coming back, aka its natural predators. Cant inv beyond 4+? Please, thats 3cp more to spend elsewhere, so you don't have to so bring big CP battery and can bring other tools.
Dont fool yourself, now there are more reasonable ways to deal with him, but we still will have to deal with him.
Fluff wise as I have rread about it we don't have ttransports ? We got bio legs that skkttsrri chop off first thing . Flesh is weak endless walk? But I do know
1) we build all imperium vehicles
2) we use fly transports to move our forces !!
I wish this was kept as I have it in my mind.
So a flier transport limited to a 6-12 man + a new hq to babysit them so we remove those pesky engiinseer spam.
I agree. Castellan is not "dead." In fact, he is more dangerous than ever. Because he will go back to how he was at the beginning. Nobody is going to prep for him as hard as before the FAQ, and there will be a much more target-rich environment for him.
That being said, all the top ITC players are moving toward monofaction lists. AdMech has a unique advantage now in that we are pretty much the only ones who can run a solo Castellan or Crusader.
Anyhow, I was doing my homework yesterday, and I am sort of shook. Chaos is incredibly strong now. Krast Styrix or no, I am very worried about that matchup, and I am less confident that Drill+Priest will cut it.
If it ends up with the Fly keyword i just hope it isnt Aircraft.
Aircraft would pretty much force it to be a Stormraven level vehicle to bother, i.e. its an invested chunk of your list, not a speedy taxi for something relatively slow.
I mean, we lack any kind of terminator type unit that would want such an elite transport. Everything melee is either too big (i'd be shocked if Kataphrons could use it) or 10+ models.
Look at this heretic. Happy with wheels on his transports.
Anyhow... thinking of making a more conservative list. In my opinion, when the meta becomes extremely uncertain, you go back to what is familiar. You might not be able to prep for everyone else, but you can definitely prep yourself:
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1998 points 13 CP (-2)
Cawlstar mixed with Graia for the Abhor. Manipulus with Dragoons to push up the board with a Knight Styrix. One Enginseer to ward off psychic powers, one Enginseer as a repairman. Might need more infantry, like a unit of Breachers. That requires me to dig up 80-85 points though. Could cut the Manipulus, but then I would have 30 dead points. (I cannot think of a use for a third Enginseer.)
When things crystallize, I will go back to the melee list.
You can always run 3-4 Robots and make the list you like same for dragoons 5 also good etc. And tbh I would use destroyers with so many robts always better to have ... Grav plasma flamer what ever can also use infoslave to protect your robots and I have to say if I see an enemy heavy on melee deep strike etc if I have 4+ robots I don't usually use binahry before 2-3 turn so I can just fall back and shoot with destroyers ......
Hm. My thinking was just to focus on primary threats. I guess it could help to have some diversity though. Here are two plans that would bring me up to 2000 exactly:
Plan A:
-1 Mars Robot
-1 Manipulus
-1 Dragoon
+8 Mars Breacher
Vineheart01 wrote: If it ends up with the Fly keyword i just hope it isnt Aircraft.
Aircraft would pretty much force it to be a Stormraven level vehicle to bother, i.e. its an invested chunk of your list, not a speedy taxi for something relatively slow.
I mean, we lack any kind of terminator type unit that would want such an elite transport. Everything melee is either too big (i'd be shocked if Kataphrons could use it) or 10+ models.
There's a picture of the back part of it, it's not big and it uses jets to steer. It's a skimmer.
But you forget Sicarians and that pretty much anything in a 5-10 man squad is cheap, or can burn a wound should we get emergency disembark starts. There's a niche there - even if it wasn't the obvious choice for large fulgarite squads.
Depends how many can ride the thing, I suppose Sicarians will take two spots each (and that's part why I believe we'll get at least 10 man cap) so that's a squad of 5 moving 11" before charge when disembarking, they'll make their charge to be sure. I did some maths a while ago and their numbers weren't very good.
5 Ruststalkers with Razors & Chordclaws, 75 pts, rerolling 1s to Hit against T4 targets gives 4,28 Razors wounds, 1,43 MW among them, + 1,94 Claw wounds, 0,65*1d3 MW among them, so an average of 3,69 W and 2,53 MW on target before saves. With Swords, that gives 6,22 W and 2,07 MW on target before saves.
That's like, two Intercessors killed. Not very good. When 5 Fulgurites give (still rerolling 1s) 5,19*1d3 W + 1,3*1d3 MW against the same target we're already at 10,38 W + 2,6 MW on average for 80 pts, not counting the MW on a 6+ on the charge for every model in the unit charged (imagine killing 5 cultists in a 30 man blob just with charging).
I don't believe Ruststalkers are very good this edition, if they had AP-2 or something they'd be something else but they're too unreliable. Ryza helps them with the reroll 1s to Wound but the Priests gets it too and have a second Fight phase for 3CP.
I tried 10 Ruststalker from the Drill in more eased battle. Frankly? I'd rather have Fulgurites. They simply cannot compare - Fulgurites come with improved inv, fight again, FnP and lots and lots of Mortal wounds, on top of the -2AP, on top of the D3 normal damage. IF the new transport could take only Skitarii, then I'm willing to try Ruststalkers again - they are cheaper alright, and (if the new toy could fly far and fast) I can imagine I want to drop Ruststalkers in the ruins to open up a flank turn 1, give them a benefit of cover, and jump 8" to another target. Otherwise however... they need something, anything, to compete.
Kanluwen wrote: Cult stuff is Cult stuff. They said this is a transport for Skitarii. It really better be just for them.
Bad enough our army rules got screwed because of the whiny Cult players to begin with. Let us get something nice for Skitarii and Skitarii alone.
You're reading way too much into the skitarii asking the question. Think about it, who else "lore wise" would ask a question like that? Electropriests? They're too fanatical for that. Ruststalkers? They're crazy. An enginseer? Maybe but it seems odd he'd question a superior. A servitor? Nope
Skitarii makes the most sense to say "hey boss we need a ride if you want us to do anything useful", so for a quick 1 minute teaser they're the natural choice.
It never says anything about skitarii only. It could be, I wouldn't be shocked, but it's hardly set in stone. And I didn't think about the possibility of a skimmer. While I'd be sad that we don't get some awesome glimpse of the original M.U.L.E people carriers, a skimmer would tactically be very handy for our army. We desperately need that speed and ability to get over terrain from a tactical standpoint. And I guess it wouldn't really be out of place lore wise. If anyone still had working Grav tech laying around, one would think it's the admech, especially since they build landspeeders and repulsors for the marines all the time. If we do get a skimmer transport, that's a huge benefit to stuff like electropriests or plasma vanguard, units that can hit hard but lack mobility. Yeah drills can do that but they can be denied deepstriking zones, the skimmers could fly over into the backline and do their thing.
Honestly I just wish GW would let us use regular Imperium vehicles. Yeah chimeras and rhinos arent flashy but they work, make sense, and they're already being made (in lore and in game) maybe give them some admech specific rules and a slight price increase and call it a day. Bare minimum rhinos and razorbacks. I wouldn't really use them much but they'd make sense. We're the admech and half our rules involve repairing things, it's really odd we have so few vehicles to use those rules with. Hell I've been resorting to allying guard armored companies just to give enginseers something to do.
Thankyou, you are speaking sense. And if by some weird quirk the rules team forget that codex skitarii and codex cult are now merged then we simply Send them lots of emails requesting they fix it
They do seem to be listening. Incidentally anyone been asking them to drop Manipulus to 60 points?
I have searched high and low but can’t find the article that had them tease it being pointed between an enginseer and a dominus. I’m starting to think that claim was just hype chatter from news outlets rather than gw community team. My memory is fuzzy lol
Kanluwen wrote: Cult stuff is Cult stuff. They said this is a transport for Skitarii. It really better be just for them.
Bad enough our army rules got screwed because of the whiny Cult players to begin with. Let us get something nice for Skitarii and Skitarii alone.
You're reading way too much into the skitarii asking the question. Think about it, who else "lore wise" would ask a question like that? Electropriests? They're too fanatical for that. Ruststalkers? They're crazy. An enginseer? Maybe but it seems odd he'd question a superior. A servitor? Nope
Skitarii makes the most sense to say "hey boss we need a ride if you want us to do anything useful", so for a quick 1 minute teaser they're the natural choice.
Ruststalkers are Skitarii. They're classified as "Sicarian", same as the Infiltrators(who aren't "crazy" as you put it) are.
It never says anything about skitarii only. It could be, I wouldn't be shocked, but it's hardly set in stone. And I didn't think about the possibility of a skimmer. While I'd be sad that we don't get some awesome glimpse of the original M.U.L.E people carriers, a skimmer would tactically be very handy for our army. We desperately need that speed and ability to get over terrain from a tactical standpoint. And I guess it wouldn't really be out of place lore wise. If anyone still had working Grav tech laying around, one would think it's the admech, especially since they build landspeeders and repulsors for the marines all the time. If we do get a skimmer transport, that's a huge benefit to stuff like electropriests or plasma vanguard, units that can hit hard but lack mobility. Yeah drills can do that but they can be denied deepstriking zones, the skimmers could fly over into the backline and do their thing.
"We" don't need that speed. Electropriests do.
We've also seen the MULE. It's the Onager. It was renamed, equipped with the Emanatus shields, and brought up as the Onager.
Ideasweasel wrote:Thankyou, you are speaking sense. And if by some weird quirk the rules team forget that codex skitarii and codex cult are now merged then we simply Send them lots of emails requesting they fix it
So what if they're merged? Scions can't use <Regiment> vehicles, Primaris can't use anything other than the Repulsor, and nobody but Skitarii get access to Doctrina Imperatives.
Suzuteo wrote: I agree. Castellan is not "dead." In fact, he is more dangerous than ever. Because he will go back to how he was at the beginning. Nobody is going to prep for him as hard as before the FAQ, and there will be a much more target-rich environment for him.
That being said, all the top ITC players are moving toward monofaction lists. AdMech has a unique advantage now in that we are pretty much the only ones who can run a solo Castellan or Crusader.
Anyhow, I was doing my homework yesterday, and I am sort of shook. Chaos is incredibly strong now. Krast Styrix or no, I am very worried about that matchup, and I am less confident that Drill+Priest will cut it.
I always really like your lists but I feel like the Styrix together with Drill + Priest are the weakest points of your list. I understand that you get a "free" relic and WLT with it since he got an inbuilt 4++/5++. But with the changes to Rotate Ion Shields it might not be that valid of an argument anymore. You could for example also give a Crusader now a "freeish" WLT since you can run him with the standard 5++ and spend 1 CP to boost it.
Yeah. I think I need to go back to the old gunline with Knight and Dragoons and maybe Breachers as a screen.
I actually think that not much has changed. You went from having to spend 1 CP per turn AND give up your WLT to OR. Given I consider the RR1 WLT to be worth way more and your Knight usually only needs to be fed CP 3 turns, a Crusader essentially has a "costs 3 CP" ability. (And even still, he doesn't have 5++ in melee.)
Anyhow, I personally still think the Krast Styrix is better than the Krast Crusader. Avenger is a great gun, but the range is a huge weakness; meanwhile, RFBC and TC are really meh. (Chaos really has it made with the Double Avenger build. Sigh...) The Stormspear is actually really good given its cost, but it's yet more eggs in one basket. The Volkite has a much better profile for Titan duels, and the Reaper variant is very light in terms of points. (Crusader is 578 and 3 CP to the Styrix's 475.)
Ideasweasel wrote: Let’s say it’s limited to just skitarii. Are you going to buy one? I wouldn’t. I hardly see the point in flinging a few rangers up the board.
Peltasts, Hoplites, Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, or Vanguard can also be used.
I've already set aside around $130 for at least two, and am hoping for a Skitarii HQ to go with them.
If that happens I’ll just stick with the drill, it will save me a bit of cash anyway.
I don't own a drill nor do I want one, since I don't own Electropriests.
Ideasweasel wrote: Let’s say it’s limited to just skitarii. Are you going to buy one? I wouldn’t. I hardly see the point in flinging a few rangers up the board.
If that happens I’ll just stick with the drill, it will save me a bit of cash anyway.
Its all gonna come down to points cost and transport capacity. If its cheap enough, something like an early mechanized rush of Stygies Arc Rifle packing Rangers becomes an intriguing possibility.
Ideasweasel wrote: Let’s say it’s limited to just skitarii. Are you going to buy one? I wouldn’t. I hardly see the point in flinging a few rangers up the board.
Peltasts, Hoplites, Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, or Vanguard can also be used.
I've already set aside around $130 for at least two, and am hoping for a Skitarii HQ to go with them.
If that happens I’ll just stick with the drill, it will save me a bit of cash anyway.
I don't own a drill nor do I want one, since I don't own Electropriests.
I dont get why you WANT the drill to be skitarii only. If you dislike the cybernetica cohort its fine, but asking for GW to put more restrictions sucks for the rest of us that dont separate our already low-options codex in two. If you dont want to run priests in the transport, then dont, even if the transport allows it doesnt mean you HAVE to.
You assuming that the drill can only take electropriests makes me think that you feel like its the only option. I've run my drill with Hoplites, Vanguards and Ruststalkers to a decent result.
Ideasweasel wrote: Let’s say it’s limited to just skitarii. Are you going to buy one? I wouldn’t. I hardly see the point in flinging a few rangers up the board.
Peltasts, Hoplites, Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, or Vanguard can also be used.
I've already set aside around $130 for at least two, and am hoping for a Skitarii HQ to go with them.
If that happens I’ll just stick with the drill, it will save me a bit of cash anyway.
I don't own a drill nor do I want one, since I don't own Electropriests.
I dont get why you WANT the drill to be skitarii only.
Try reading a bit better.
I didn't say "I want the drill to be skitarii only". I said that "I want whatever got teased to be Skitarii only".
The drill can be whatever it wants to be, I don't care. I have zero interest in that item.
If you dislike the cybernetica cohort its fine, but asking for GW to put more restrictions sucks for the rest of us that dont separate our already low-options codex in two. If you dont want to run priests in the transport, then dont, even if the transport allows it doesnt mean you HAVE to.
You assuming that the drill can only take electropriests makes me think that you feel like its the only option. I've run my drill with Hoplites, Vanguards and Ruststalkers to a decent result.
If you can't recognize why I said "I don't own a drill nor do I want one, since I don't own Electropriests"--that's on you. It's not because I "assume that the drill can only take electropriests"--I'm aware of how it works. I just don't like it, and won't field it because it doesn't go with my theme/setup.
Yoda79 wrote: Styyrix is fw. I'd suggest if you take a solo knight try crusader.
Maybe not vs styrix and prefferancd but crusaders are back in menu.
Ive seen lots of talk about the Styrix being good, do people run him with the chainsword or do they upgrade to the siege claw?
Also is the model the same size as GW Questoris knights? if so then i might proxy it in a few games to test it.
Yoda79 wrote: Styyrix is fw. I'd suggest if you take a solo knight try crusader.
Maybe not vs styrix and prefferancd but crusaders are back in menu.
Ive seen lots of talk about the Styrix being good, do people run him with the chainsword or do they upgrade to the siege claw?
Also is the model the same size as GW Questoris knights? if so then i might proxy it in a few games to test it.
Claw all the way. Rad cleanser is RAD . And its good, not outstandingly good but its good. It's the same size, its basically conversion kit for normal knight.
Yoda79 wrote: Styyrix is fw. I'd suggest if you take a solo knight try crusader.
Maybe not vs styrix and prefferancd but crusaders are back in menu.
Well, it was really cheap to just buy a shady upgrade kit and add the bits to my existing Knight components.
Crusaders definitely are back on the menu, but I think the only time you would really want them are Triple Crusaders. A solo Crusader has many disadvantages in a matchup against a solo Styrix or Castellan. Namely, if you don't have a good deployment, they get to shoot first, and in the case of the Styrix, if it ever gets to CC, you're screwed because the Styrix has built-in 5++ in melee.
I suppose for us, the choice is Castellan if you want something with lots of dakka. Styrix if you want a cheap, well-rounded model; they are essentially super-Errants.
Yoda79 wrote: Styyrix is fw. I'd suggest if you take a solo knight try crusader.
Maybe not vs styrix and prefferancd but crusaders are back in menu.
Ive seen lots of talk about the Styrix being good, do people run him with the chainsword or do they upgrade to the siege claw?
Also is the model the same size as GW Questoris knights? if so then i might proxy it in a few games to test it.
Both work. When you get the Claw, it's for the rad cleanser mostly; you cannot Death Grip with it, sadly. When you are Krast, Feet > Claw/Gauntlet for virtually everything. Reaper > Feet against T5-7 targets with less than 10W. Plus, you can Chainsweep and Devastating Reach with it.
Yes. It's Questoris Knight with fancy extra parts. Mine is magnetized.
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1999 points 13 CP (-3)
Decided to slot some Breachers in there. Is it a problem that they are not Stygies? I figure Mars for two Canticles, reroll all hits, 6" of extra shooting range, and Raiment for extra Overwatch goodness. (It's remarkable how far we have come in terms of force multipliers) Also, is 3x3 okay? I see a lot of people taking them in units of 4-6, but since I am not doing any of the resurrect mechanics, 3 seems fine to me.
I am thinking Necromechanic over Monitor Malevolus here as well. The former is nice if I just want to try to keep the Knight up as long as possible. I would put it on my Enginseer and forward deploy the Graians with the Knight to screen and counter-charge. Plus, this list consumes surprisingly little CP. Most of it just goes into the Knight, Wrath of Mars, and Command Rerolls. Maybe Doctrina, Acquisition, and Strafing Fire Run.
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1999 points 13 CP (-3)
Decided to slot some Breachers in there. Is it a problem that they are not Stygies? I figure Mars for two Canticles, reroll all hits, 6" of extra shooting range, and Raiment for extra Overwatch goodness. (It's remarkable how far we have come in terms of force multipliers) Also, is 3x3 okay? I see a lot of people taking them in units of 4-6, but since I am not doing any of the resurrect mechanics, 3 seems fine to me.
I am thinking Necromechanic over Monitor Malevolus here as well. The former is nice if I just want to try to keep the Knight up as long as possible. I would put it on my Enginseer and forward deploy the Graians with the Knight to screen and counter-charge. Plus, this list consumes surprisingly little CP. Most of it just goes into the Knight, Wrath of Mars, and Command Rerolls. Maybe Doctrina, Acquisition, and Strafing Fire Run.
make the breachers group of 5-6. make even a 3 man destroyers better for Robots. REmove the Onagers you dont need them. and you are closer to mine every day Also you need to remove Cawl to another detachment? and add a dominus cause you definetly need that hermeticon + dominus can buff +1 to hit if you go vigilus. + you can use servitors to revive them. i know i repaet my self but your closer now.
Stok grai Rangers dont do nothing atm in your list. 2 groups are enough for back field breachers and knight will push forth.
Tbh you should be looking for my list now. 2 groups of rangers with sniper one destroyers even if they are 3. make one detachment with breachers 3*4-6 and you should be fine. DOminus servitors if you can . and ally Knight. You ll have to mage the cp each game but its doable.
Dont forget 4 robots and infiltrators are better than 5 robots. 3 robots and 3 destroyers are better than 4 robots etc. the options possibilities are better in competitive. build accordingly.
Why is that? Do the Breachers become more efficient somehow with numbers? Am I missing something?
I still like the Icarus Crawlers. I think Tau is going to be the big bad with Castellans and Ynnari greatly diminished, monofaction becoming more prominent, and the changes to the Overwatch rules.
If I do Destroyers, I would make the Graia detachment a mixed unit and put a Dominus in. But that would mean dropping the Breachers because I only have 9 of those things:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 1045 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 280 1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 475
Lord of War - 475 1x Knight Styrix - Volkite Chierovile, Reaper Chainsword, Graviton Crusher, Warlord: First Knight (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1998 points 13 CP (-4)
This actually looks exactly like my Soup list, only with a Knight instead of Catachans. Haha. I am a bit worried about my ability to screen though. Only 5x5 Skitarii to hold objectives; Destroyers can too, but they will always seek the best cover they can get. Isn't the idea to have the Knight+Skitarii in front, then the Breachers as a second screen, then the Dakkabots, all getting the +6" range and reroll hits?
CP might be another problem. I go down to 9, and I am burning at least 4 per turn. I guess I may need the Monitor Malevolus WLT for this list? Put it on the Manipulus, I guess?
Suzuteo wrote: Why is that? Do the Breachers become more efficient somehow with numbers? Am I missing something?
They get affected by stratagems better and maybe can take more advantage of hiding everyone but one breacher in LOS blocking cover, but that's about it AFAIK.
I don't really plan on investing much CP into Breachers. Maybe Acquisition at all Costs in a tough spot, but what else? If they were Destroyers though, there's Elimination Volley, Noospheric Lock, and Plasma Specialists...
Suzuteo wrote: Why is that? Do the Breachers become more efficient somehow with numbers? Am I missing something?
Stratagems likely. At least the big honking squad of 9 I faced last tournament was receiver of stratagem or two and shot like hell. Poor mek guns were vaporized instantly off board.
But to be fair this could be broken.
